I can't help but notice the increase in all the negative threads and posts about GW. I know that my article that I posted,URL I Hate Games Workshop OR The Proper and Only Response to have on the Internet, and my post here is probably going to catch a lot of flack. I just have to say that I'm happy with GW. While I will freely admit they are far from perfect, I have a hard time leveling some of the hate and toxicity that many of the online community have. I have come to wonder if this is unique to the online community? I have also come dread posting anything on forums and other sites.
Personally, I can't help but find some of the arguments that people use confusing or laughable: GW prices and demanding perfect quality on release. I've shopped around and found GW prices are in line with many other table top games. As for quality, I do think improvement can be made, but the levels people are taking it to again is laughable.
You can read my article to get my full feelings, but this is what I think in a nut shell. Price wise, I think GW is competitive. Even at the great and all might Privateer Press, I'm going to be spending $40 to $60 for a single box of models. Quality wise, I think improvements can be made, but to make the argument that I pay XX amount of dollars for something and I expect it to be free of flaws is foolish. Business practice wise, I try and stay out of it. I don't work for GW, and I don't own stock in GW. Again, there are many companies out there that have people complaining about their business practices. When a company has thousands of people working together with different goals, ideas, opinions, thoughts, and believes, there are going to be problems. None of the arguments people level at GW take away my enjoyment of the game. What does take away my enjoyment of the game is a bitter and negative filled community that forget or lose track that they are playing a game. A game that is no different from any other game like Monopoly or Chess.
I hope I'm mistaken and have just stumbled into wrong threads and topics.
What's that phrase about if you're happy then you've not got a clue what's happening or something?
I still enjoy 40k, alongside other games, but you've made some fairly fundamental errors. Comparing other system's pricing is a fallacy, firstly because as the market leader, it's GW's pricing which dictates what the competition will charge. Secondly, startup costs are a much better comparison, what does it take to get a playable force? This is where GW suffers quite badly.
As for quality? If a company position themselves as a luxury brand within a market, they have NO excuse whatsoever for failing to deliver. Other companies manage to do so, with fewer resources, and often at a lower price.
The surge is likely because of the change in codex policy for GW this edition (more codices = more people to whine about changes), as well as a couple lackluster expansions (Crusade of Fire and Death From the Skies were very lacking in content). Outside of the game, GW has made some incredibly poor decisions lately (Spots the Space Marine lawsuit fiasco, screwing over online retailers, etc), and then there's the astronomical prices of some of their kits and books to top everything else off.
On top of all of that, the community on DakkaDakka just plain complains about damn near everything, but now they actually have far more excuses to do so.
Much of the irritation toward GW comes from a specific source...GW! If everything was so peachy there wouldn't be the constant knee-jerk reaction to GW's screw-ups, but unfortunately GW has ridden the coattails of its excellent IP for so long it has taken for granted so much of what made it popular in the first place. The hatred isn't always justified but behind it are kernels of truth.
It's not the same as Monopoly or chess. You don't spend hundreds of dollars on those game only to have the rules change every few years, thus requiring you to invest more cash. For rules that aren't so good, really.
The surge has to do with a variety of acts that all came one on top of the other. Within the last 3 months we've had:
-Further crack downs on online retailers, including the closing of Miniwargaming (a popular site/community)
-Ban on bit sales
-Hobbit mess
-Tau supply debacle
-GW's policies extending to BL, which has made new releases/the HH series more or less grind to a halt.
-Clear-cut scams like "limited edition" codex's that aren't just overpriced, they're actual literal scams that seek to steal your money unfairly
azreal13 wrote: Comparing other system's pricing is a fallacy, firstly because as the market leader, it's GW's pricing which dictates what the competition will charge.
Oh wow! So it is now GWs fault that Warmachine miniatures are so expensive! This is really something special.
-Clear-cut scams like "limited edition" codex's that aren't just overpriced, they're actual literal scams that seek to steal your money unfairly
Willingly paying for worthless limited edition tag is not stealing. If people are stupid enough to pay, GW would be idiots if they wouldn't take this free money.
I certainly don't think that GW is perfect, far from it. It just seems to me that people's reactions are totally out of proportion, and totally disconnected from the reality of how big companies generally behave. Most things many here see as a horrible outrage are mildly annoying at most to me.
Compare the quality of GW models to other miniature companies(not just table top wargame miniatures)
You will find that GW's pricing is quite reasonible for the quality you get. YOu may pay up to twice as much for a model with similar detail and size without any of the customization GW offers.
@azreal13
I believe cost of product is not a fundamental error. Comparing the price of Brand A to the price of Brand B is the basis of what everyone does when doing price comparison. In my mind, start up cost is personal choice that price may or may not have an impact on. This could be likened to a person saying I choose to buy Brand A because I like the box art, it brings back memories, that's what I've always used, etc.
@Andilius Greatsword
I have to say that I appreciate you response. I will agree that the Spot the Space Marine story was handled poorly and that on the surface the online retail is another instances that has me scratching my head. I still have a hard time accepting the level of hate that is kicked up. In the Spot case, I don't remember every single detail being revealed. In my mind, there were a lot of unanswered questions. As with the internet retailers, we don't know the whole reasoning behind the decision, nor can we tell or want to believe there might be benefits. I don't think 3rd party retail of GW products is dead. Again, I simply don't know. I could be complete wrong on both points. However, I do have to give you a big thumbs up and laugh at the community on DakkaDakka just complains about everything.
@amanita
I can accept that any criticism is based on a kernel of truth. I can't help but wonder if the community has gone from criticism to whipping, and that GW is the whipping boy of the gaming community because that's what accepted and they are the biggest target. I used Monopoly and Chess as an analogies. They are games like 40k is a game. They are meant to be played in order to have a fun time. However, I think few people watch every move Hasbro makes and go into blood rage if Hasbro does something they don't like.
Thanks for the replies thus far. While they are civil, I can't help but feel that the replies only prove my point. I say something good or supportive of GW, and I am almost immediately met with arguments that carry the air of "how dare I say something positive about GW", which is why I titled my blog post they way I did. Again, thank you for the so far civil responses.
bkiker wrote: Price wise, I think GW is competitive.
That sort of depends on where you are trying to buy from...
Quality wise, I think improvements can be made, but to make the argument that I pay XX amount of dollars for something and I expect it to be free of flaws is foolish.
Really?
Like... really?
If I buy any commercially produced product, I expect it to be free of flaws. Expecting the self-proclaimed market leader with their 'best quality gaming miniatures on the planet' to have higher standardss of quality control than their competitors doesn't really fit my understanding of the word 'foolish'... but YMMV, obviously.
Psienesis wrote:It's not just miniatures gaming that sees this kind of activity, it's everything. The Internet is, after all, a Global Hate Machine.
I have to laugh because I think I forgot what the internet was.
Harriticus wrote:The surge has to do with a variety of acts that all came one on top of the other. Within the last 3 months we've had:
-Further crack downs on online retailers, including the closing of Miniwargaming (a popular site/community)
-Ban on bit sales
-Hobbit mess
-Tau supply debacle
-GW's policies extending to BL, which has made new releases/the HH series more or less grind to a halt.
-Clear-cut scams like "limited edition" codex's that aren't just overpriced, they're actual literal scams that seek to steal your money unfairly
I can understand your point. All these changes coming on top of each other has not given the community time to adapt, accept, or figure out how these changes are going affect them. I would guess any company doing these kind of shuffle would meet a push back from their customer base.
Grey Templar wrote:Compare the quality of GW models to other miniature companies(not just table top wargame miniatures)
You will find that GW's pricing is quite reasonible for the quality you get. YOu may pay up to twice as much for a model with similar detail and size without any of the customization GW offers.
Just something to consider.
Thank you Grey Templar. This is the argument that I've heard even from retailers, including MiniWargaming. It's also a point I tried and probably failed to make.
Crimson wrote:
azreal13 wrote: Comparing other system's pricing is a fallacy, firstly because as the market leader, it's GW's pricing which dictates what the competition will charge.
Oh wow! So it is now GWs fault that Warmachine miniatures are so expensive! This is really something special.
Of course GW still has its prices way too high. They could make much larger profits by expanding their market and slashing prices. I know they don't have a massive profit margin but they could drop prices by 20%
GW could easily have the best prices for the best quality out there. They could price Warmachine out of the market but they don't for some reason.
Well, for my two cents, I feel this bashing surge is due mainly to the timing of all these GW debacles. I agree, a lot of things here are not the greatest decisions made, and what's hurting GW is the short time span that these are all occurring, and to the levels it is affecting the hobbyists involved. I myself love the models and collecting most of all, so outside of the price hikes and obstacles to distribution, I'm not terribly involved with the other issues...but I get it. The lack of tourney support, the focus on "new players only, vets get out", the impending end to open gaming in stores, the shrinking size of GW stores, etc. etc. That all sucks. Plain and simple. And for these missteps to happen one right after another can be bewildering, if not infuriating. So the surge in hate makes sense in that this community seems to be very involved in all aspects of 40K than most...and there is a genuine concern their favorite game is going down the tubes. Now, I can't say about the folks who make the purely negative posts and call for all to abandon ship to another franchise...I'm hoping that's just blind hate that will come to pass. In the end, I love my models and love the setting...if the rules get watered down to the point where it becomes absolutely unplayable, then I'll roll back to an edition that I thought worked better, until then, I have waaaay too much stuff to paint anyhow.
If I buy any commercially produced product, I expect it to be free of flaws. Expecting the self-proclaimed market leader with their 'best quality gaming miniatures on the planet' to have higher standardss of quality control than their competitors doesn't really fit my understanding of the word 'foolish'... but YMMV, obviously.
For the most part, I can understand GW's business practices and while I can't condone things like the "limited edition" books or the so-called bundle "deals", I haven't fallen for them either, so I say more fool anyone that does. I'm also well aware that some people may call ME a fool for paying full price for GW stuff, and that's fair enough.
This one point of Insaniak's is perfectly valid when it comes to Finecast though, especially when the plastics are soooo damn good. I am fully aware that I'm paying over the odds for miniatures, because I'm getting high quality ones. Inevitably flaws do happen but I expect them to be few and far between and when they do occur, I expect to be able to raise it with the provider and have it replaced promptly (and now that the issues are ironed out, this is back on track).
This isn't a difficult position to understand. If you go into a top restaurant and pay $50 for a steak, and it's not cooked the way you want it, you can expect to have another one brought out. If you buy an expensive TV and from the first time you plug it in the colour is all washed out, you can expect to have it fixed or swapped. Why should miniatures be any different?
As a business, GW operates in spite of itself, not because of itself. Relationships with FLGS's are often very strained, they *borrow* money to pay dividends for no reason other than to increase Kirby's yearly income by 300%, they have issues getting product to market and have major QA issues with their Finecast line. They also leave lines to languish for years and up to two editions at a time (though that seems to be changing), and often leave certain units worse off for even longer (e.g. Ogryn, Vespids, Stormtroopers, Chaos dreads/helbrutes, etc) both in terms of rules and models.
On top of that, the cost of playing Games Workshop games is more expensive relative to Real Income than ever before and rising far ahead of inflation in most cases. GW's "expansion" books have turned out to be largely dead on arrival, and their codex updates consistently fail to inspire, feeling less impressive (despite being visually moreso) than much of the material from a decade or more ago. It also doesn't help that WD went from a hobby magazine to an expensive ad rag.
Additionally, there's practically no time for people to get excited for releases, basically there's a few rumors on intarwebz forums a few weeks before release, a week of preorders, and then BAM. Older books had far more engaging buildups to their release and correspondingly far greater customer/player engagement with the product.
And finally, GW is actually finally getting competition. Not in the "GW is DOOOOMED" type, but 8 years ago there was only 40k and Fantasy to play in most clubs/stores, now there's far more games that are making much more of a consistent and widespread appearance, and they're increasingly doing things right where GW is not.
azreal13 wrote: Comparing other system's pricing is a fallacy, firstly because as the market leader, it's GW's pricing which dictates what the competition will charge.
Oh wow! So it is now GWs fault that Warmachine miniatures are so expensive! This is really something special.
It really pays to be on solid ground before you start to ridicule someone.
'Fault' is not a word I'd use, but see if you can follow my logic.
You are a new company looking to enter a market, what you will use to determine the viability of what you propose to sell is current and historic data of volume and pricing. If you are unable to produce this product profitably within the context of the market, it's a bad idea and you probably won't proceed.
If your production costs fit, you will then have to decide what you can sell for. Again, this won't be based on your production costs but what the market will bear. If you're entering an established market, the biggest clue will be what your competition is charging. You will then adjust your final retail price depending on whether you are targeting the value (Mantic) end or the premium end (any number of the low volume, boutique style manufacturers)
As the largest player in the tabletop market, GW sets these trends, others then follow. If they charged £15 for a Tac Squad, as opposed to £23, it would be much harder for the competition to charge the prices they do, as they would look decidedly worse value.
So, yes, it is GW's 'fault' that PP prices are what they are, if they were lower, PP would have to price lower to compete, or simply wouldn't exist as it wouldn't have made entry into the market viable.
TLDR If Space Marines were cheaper, nearly everything else would have to be.
I agree with the OP to a certain exstent, in my opinion only a few points bother me about GW and it's not the legal side:
FineCast, is an insult, it's not fine and it's not cast, the models are warped and bubble ridden, they are not worth the price or the name. I'm sure it's hard for them to find a safe resin but that's tough they should have stayed metal or gone all plastic. The material is not up to the wargaming it is ment for.
WhiteDwarf, what are you expecting me to pay for this, if it was a blog I'd find my self hard pushed to visit it regularly, gw, you could have so much cool art, stories, models, even fan stuff, but nope, it's full of cut and paste and adverts.
Additional rules, add on ect, WTF was death from the sky or what ever really gw! That was not an expansion, flyer ace rules where stupid, there was bugger all in the book, charging for that crap is seriously unreasonable! You need to start offering all these types of things along side your FAQ/errata, not as mini expansion, not as whitedwarf publications, as on the website free rules.
They do good too tho, they have good plastics IMO, nice shops for those who use them and very good customer service if you ever phone or email a problem, it is either fixed or if slightly more ambiguous, openly resolved. I would prefer them to update all there codex at the start of each edition, it's unfair to trail some ranges on for years with no update but to still sell the models. Now as for there legal department I have no comment, as a big company in a niche Market it must be difficult to make certain choices, there are alot of worse companys to hate on IMO like EA or mcdonalds as some of the bat examples. But there you go interwebz people love the anonymity to just zest their angst! Lol me included of course!
I think they just need to open up alittle bring the community back into it! Why don't they have there own forums for example?! Start giving us some stuff for free GW it doesnt have to cost you hardly anything, it's only rules they arnt even real with the damn models! Start loving the community again draw us in with your plans have the fans show you what's good and what's not before you realeased not after then make people wait years for another stab in the dark... Oh and bin finecast, start over REALLY...
If your production costs fit, you will then have to decide what you can sell for. Again, this won't be based on your production costs but what the market will bear. If you're entering an established market, the biggest clue will be what your competition is charging. You will then adjust your final retail price depending on whether you are targeting the value (Mantic) end or the premium end (any number of the low volume, boutique style manufacturers)
As the largest player in the tabletop market, GW sets these trends, others then follow. If they charged £15 for a Tac Squad, as opposed to £23, it would be much harder for the competition to charge the prices they do, as they would look decidedly worse value.
So, yes, it is GW's 'fault' that PP prices are what they are, if they were lower, PP would have to price lower to compete, or simply wouldn't exist as it wouldn't have made entry into the market viable.
TLDR If Space Marines were cheaper, nearly everything else would have to be.
PP is free to price their models as they choose. If they thought lower prices would give them competitive advantage, they would do it. They price their products in the way they think produces most profit. Just like GW.
In any case, crying over the prices is pointless. No company will ever lower their prices to just be nice. If you don't like the price, don't buy. If enough people won't, it will affect the pricing in the long run. GW's priced are determined by what the people are willing to pay, nothing else.
If your production costs fit, you will then have to decide what you can sell for. Again, this won't be based on your production costs but what the market will bear. If you're entering an established market, the biggest clue will be what your competition is charging. You will then adjust your final retail price depending on whether you are targeting the value (Mantic) end or the premium end (any number of the low volume, boutique style manufacturers)
As the largest player in the tabletop market, GW sets these trends, others then follow. If they charged £15 for a Tac Squad, as opposed to £23, it would be much harder for the competition to charge the prices they do, as they would look decidedly worse value.
So, yes, it is GW's 'fault' that PP prices are what they are, if they were lower, PP would have to price lower to compete, or simply wouldn't exist as it wouldn't have made entry into the market viable.
TLDR If Space Marines were cheaper, nearly everything else would have to be.
PP is free to price their models as they choose. If they thought lower prices would give them competitive advantage, they would do it. They price their products in the way they think produces most profit. Just like GW.
In any case, crying over the prices is pointless. No company will ever lower their prices to just be nice. If you don't like the price, don't buy. If enough people won't, it will affect the pricing in the long run. GW's priced are determined by what the people are willing to pay, nothing else.
No, nobody is free to price anything 'as they choose' in any market. There is a minimum price dictated by production costs, distribution and other overheads, this is pretty much a hard number with little ambiguity. There is very definitely a maximum price too, but the parameters for that are a little more wooly. The fact is though, that while GW continue to increase prices and people keep buying, it tells their competition that there is still room to increase their own prices. They may choose not to, if they feel the drop in volume wouldn't be offset by the increase in revenue, or that it would damage their reputation for instance, but it demonstrates to them that they could.
No, nobody is free to price anything 'as they choose' in any market. There is a minimum price dictated by production costs, distribution and other overheads, this is pretty much a hard number with little ambiguity.
Obviously. Of course company can price themselves out of business by charging too little. Suicide is a choice, it is just a bad choice.
There is very definitely a maximum price too, but the parameters for that are a little more wooly. The fact is though, that while GW continue to increase prices and people keep buying, it tells their competition that there is still room to increase their own prices. They may choose not to, if they feel the drop in volume wouldn't be offset by the increase in revenue, or that it would damage their reputation for instance, but it demonstrates to them that they could.
So in the end they charge the price that they thinks producers most profit. Just as any company does. In fact not doing so would be idiotic. It is absurd to vilify a company over that. If you don't like the prices, don't buy. It is the only way to affect the pricing.
There are genuine grievances with how GW chooses to conduct business, but pricing is not one of them.
I think they just need to open up alittle bring the community back into it! Why don't they have there own forums for example?!
They used to. They were an awful format that was truly atrocious to operate in being a horrifically oudated BBS style board that was never updated really before they shut it down in 2006, and they were appallingly moderated in a very hamfisted manner with a community even more venemous than Dakka or Warseer are as a result.
No, nobody is free to price anything 'as they choose' in any market. There is a minimum price dictated by production costs, distribution and other overheads, this is pretty much a hard number with little ambiguity.
Obviously. Of course company can price themselves out of business by charging too little. Suicide is a choice, it is just a bad choice.
There is very definitely a maximum price too, but the parameters for that are a little more wooly. The fact is though, that while GW continue to increase prices and people keep buying, it tells their competition that there is still room to increase their own prices. They may choose not to, if they feel the drop in volume wouldn't be offset by the increase in revenue, or that it would damage their reputation for instance, but it demonstrates to them that they could.
So in the end they charge the price that they thinks producers most profit. Just as any company does. In fact not doing so would be idiotic. It is absurd to vilify a company over that. If you don't like the prices, don't buy. It is the only way to affect the pricing.
There are genuine grievances with how GW chooses to conduct business, but pricing is not one of them.
Ok, one more time, I don't think you're getting what I'm trying to say, and I don't think I can express it any better.
Say GW charges £25 for a hypothetical 10 man boxed set of infantry. PP charge £30 for a 10 man boxed set of infantry. The difference can easily be explained by a difference in material (metal vs plastic) and the consumer will normally only require one set, rather than multiples, making justifying the purchase in total and the extra money fairly simple.
If GW charged £15 for the same boxed set, PP have a choice, they can reduce the price of their box to something similar, say £20, or somehow try and justify charging double for, what is in this context, a broadly similar product. That would be an incredibly tough sell.
In any market, the actions of the market leader will influence the behaviour of the competing brands. Price is a major aspect of that behaviour.
Actually GW prices do effect the minimum price of some other manufacturers. It is well known that some consumers will reject a product if it is priced too cheaply compared to what are recognized as top rated products. I am sure this will shock some people but I used to run a business where this was definitely the case.
GW plastic kits are nice but finecast, even when relatively free of defects is a terrible material if you plan to keep the model long term.
Where GW really fails to deliver is in game design and rule writing. The production values of their books is terrible with many errors that a simple proof reading should spot.
No, nobody is free to price anything 'as they choose' in any market. There is a minimum price dictated by production costs, distribution and other overheads, this is pretty much a hard number with little ambiguity.
Obviously. Of course company can price themselves out of business by charging too little. Suicide is a choice, it is just a bad choice.
There is very definitely a maximum price too, but the parameters for that are a little more wooly. The fact is though, that while GW continue to increase prices and people keep buying, it tells their competition that there is still room to increase their own prices. They may choose not to, if they feel the drop in volume wouldn't be offset by the increase in revenue, or that it would damage their reputation for instance, but it demonstrates to them that they could.
So in the end they charge the price that they thinks producers most profit. Just as any company does. In fact not doing so would be idiotic. It is absurd to vilify a company over that. If you don't like the prices, don't buy. It is the only way to affect the pricing.
There are genuine grievances with how GW chooses to conduct business, but pricing is not one of them.
That depends on whether or not you subscribe to Market Capitalist dogma regarding business ethics and goals. Vacant pursuit of profit at any and all costs is plenty reason to vilify a company to my mind, particularly if you like that company's product and would rather they didn't run themselves into the ground in order to line the pockets of the investor class.
I love 40k. More than anything else I love the aesthetics. I am willing to invest money in a hobby I enjoy, but at the end of the day their prices are absolutely absurd.
I'm not talking about the cost of an individual model mind you, so much as the value of the products they sell. Firstly the rulebook. It is criminal to charge 75 dollars for a rulebook, then another 33 dollars for the codex, both of which are required to play. So let's think about that... before you put a penny towards a model, brushes, or paints you are already into them for well over 100 dollars.
I suppose you could counter the above point with "well what about dark vengeance!!!!!" to which I would say it is a terrible starter set. Firstly you do not receive the two codices for the "armies" contained within the box and on top of that they did not even bother to balance the forces. The DA will table choas in 9.9 games out of ten. So you are paying 100 dollars for a set that not only does a poor job of introducing you to the game, but also fails to provide you with any useful models unless you know for a fact you want to field DA or CSM.
So for anyone interested in starting this hobby they are immediately faced with the reality that they are going to spend over 100 dollars for a rulebook and a codex before even touching a model of their chosen army unless their army of choice happens to be DA or CSM. This is incredibly stupid.
If GW had a brain they would put together a battleforce for every army that included the paperback rulebook, the codex, templates, dice, an HQ, two troops, and one other special unit and charge an even 100 dollars retail. This would literally give new players the basis of an army and all the tools required to play said army. They should lower the price of the Hardcover rulebook to an even 50 dollars, and include templates with it. Then drop the price of the codices from 33 to 20. They do not need to drop the price of every model, they just need to lower the price of admission so new players are created. I say this as a new player who has purchased every model in my ~1500pt guard from ebay, my codex is a printed out pdf, and the only rulebook I have is one which a group of six players split the cost of and we share between us. GW has missed out on my business because they insist on running their company as if they are doing me a favor by gracing me with "the most superior miniatures in the world". that! I can play their silly game without giving them a dime and it's exactly what I am doing.
They are not an intelligent company, they are riding on a successful IP. They know they have good looking models and the largest player base and so they are acting like spoiled brats. However their actions are not growing the hobby, but in all likelihood they are forcing old players out and prospective new gamers away. Or people take an approach similar to mine and buy secondhand.
I have not even touched on their attitude towards the flgs of which they insist on treating like parasites and refuse to acknowledge that the flgs does more for the hobby than they ever could. Hell my local GW does not even have tables, all they do is try to sell you their product and get you in their painting boot camp.
Some think GW is evil... I just think they are unrepentantly stupid.
I don`t get why people always compare gw with pp etc and the prices.
I they are about the same but at the end of the day you only need so much to play any game.
Spend £150 at GW and you are still about £200 to £300 off a average game size.
Spend £150 on pp and you have anywhere between 25 to 50pts and thats all you need. Spend £150 on Malifaux you could get anything you like, spend £150 on MERCS you could get 2 or 3 factions.
£150 was just a baseline price that I picked at random but you get the point
Harriticus wrote: The surge has to do with a variety of acts that all came one on top of the other. Within the last 3 months we've had:
-Further crack downs on online retailers, including the closing of Miniwargaming (a popular site/community)
-Ban on bit sales
-Hobbit mess
-Tau supply debacle
-GW's policies extending to BL, which has made new releases/the HH series more or less grind to a halt.
-Clear-cut scams like "limited edition" codex's that aren't just overpriced, they're actual literal scams that seek to steal your money unfairly
I will say I have a love hate thing with GW. Most of the hate thing comes from above excluding Miniwargaming because in their video they said that they already had plans to shut down that part of their site. The prices also bother me but that's because I'm a broke ass college student who should spend more money on School and less money on my hobby
I can't help but wonder what GW is doing. I love them because of their product but it looks like they are sinking their ship.
I've heard GW referred to as the Evil Empire long before I came to the internet. It's not unique to the internet, it just facilitates it and makes it public. GW do a lot of things that are toxic to the hobby, as a result people react in anger.
I think the OP might be confusing critical review with bashing.
Buying finecast models and pointing out flaws in them is not bashing.
Pointing out problems in GW's pricing policy is not bashing.
Criticizing a company for producing error ridden rule books is not bashing.
Questioning the reasoning of things like dropping tournament support or in store gaming is not bashing.
Having a good laugh about the design of the latest flyer is not bashing.
Voicing an opinion about retail policies (Australian Embargo, internet sales ban...) is not bashing.
Reflecting on historical changes through the management and design teams are not bashing.
Expressing annoyance (even outrage) that a company forgets where it came from and attempts to shut down upstarts (whether they are 3rd party bits or science fiction authors) is not bashing.
There are a lot of threads in general about GW - here and elsewhere. Some of them do contain a few people who are bashing for the sake of bashing. Others provide reasoned responses and positions...quite often against GW's policy faux pas of the day, week, month, year... One of the nice things about the internet is that you can easily ignore those who are unreasonable or purposefully obtuse (which you see nearly as many who support GW for no particular reason at all as well as you see the bashing with no particular basis behind it).
Nothing but love does GW no good (or any other company for that matter). We know that they read the forums (both for evidence for their legal pursuits and for the next target of a C&D letter) to some extent.
bkiker wrote: I hope I'm mistaken and have just stumbled into wrong threads and topics.
Unfortunately, you haven't. The community here on Dakka (and especially here on Dakka Discussions) has become extremely anti-GW over the years. It's more or less guaranteed that any new piece of news regarding GW will be viewed negatively by a large fraction of the forum members-- for instance, even Tau selling out has been characterized as a "debacle" by many people on these boards!
I'm not entirely sure what caused the culture of these boards to become so anti-GW, but to be honest I'm growing increasingly tired of it and am tempted to start posting on boards where people are a little more clear-headed.
I think there could be some cleaning up though. The 'Games Workshop Ownership Changes?' and 'So what do you think is happening?' threads are more or less the same topic, enough so that some people have copy and pasted the same posts between them. And both seem to regurgitate similar discussion to the much longer 'Has it always been this "bad"?' thread.
And a big chunk of the 'bashing' or 'well deserved criticism' is simply that they are the market leader - when they screw up it gets noticed.
When they screw up it can affect the entire hobby. 40K used to be a good entry point into SF wargaming - it was part of what made GW the market leader.
Starter sets were attractively priced - not an impulse buy, but something that was appropriate value for money as a Christmas, Birthday, or even anniversary gift. (Yes, not a random choice - I was commissioned to paint a 40K starter to be given to the wife by her husband as a first anniversary gift. Seems to have worked, they just had their fifth anniversary. They are playing Kings of War these days. :lol: )
Now... they are not as good as an entry point, the starters are above what many would consider an appropriate value for money as a gift.
So, it can mean fewer people entering the hobby as a whole.
I remember being able to buyWH40K 3e at Border's and Waldenbooks. Both are gone now, and BaM! does not carry the games.
I love Mantic, I think that KoW is an excellent value for money - but they do not have the market exposure that GW seems to be giving up.
I cannot go into BaM! and expect to find Kings of War on the shelf.
I cannot go into Toys 'R' Us and expect to see WARMACHINE on the shelf.
GWhad that position, but now....
So, some of the animosity is worry about the future of our hobby.
Howard A Treesong wrote: I think there could be some cleaning up though. The 'Games Workshop Ownership Changes?' and 'So what do you think is happening?' threads are more or less the same topic, enough so that some people have copy and pasted the same posts between them. And both seem to regurgitate similar discussion to the much longer 'Has it always been this "bad"?' thread.
AMEN.
Not only are there often 5-6 threads about the same 'This week in GW' but the same people post the same points on the same topic in all 6 threads. The threads are not even a discussion half the time, it is simply a rollcall for the same 20 or so people who re-post the exact same laundry list of things they dislike or things they would change.
We even have people cross posting where they respond from one thread to another.
I don't mind when people discuss a topic and post their opinion, it is when the same topic is rehashed 4 times a week, and every NEW issue results in the airing of old grievances which makes every thread just a repeat or duplicate of existing threads already in the top 10 posts in the thread.
There has been some rumored speculation about stock selling... and instead of one topic about that and what it could mean and good information on that, we have 5 threads about the errors GW has made over the past decade with the exact same posts not only burying any new or real discussion but wasting everyone's time.
I don't have anything against GW, i have something against the GW management, that is only focused on short time profits and ignoring the long term effects of their decisions.
Don't you think it's a little intellectually dishonest to point out the cluster of "negative Gee-dubs threads" lately without in any way alluding to the abnormal number of unpopular Gee-dubs actions within the last month-ish?
nkelsch wrote: but the same people post the same points on the same topic in all 6 threads.
Don't you think it's a little ironic to say this, coming from the guy who practically breaks his fingers to drop a big stinky "oh-it's-this-tiresome-thread-again" dook every time one surfaces?
Rotgut wrote: Most of the GW hate threads ends up being the same 15 or so people ranting and arguing with eacother.
GW is like EA, the number one priority is short term gain. On the other hand, if they keep releasing cool models I will keep being interested.
I am speaking here only from personal taste, but lately... not so many of their models have been 'cool'.
Some are excellent, others....
I play undead - both Vampire Counts and Tomb Kings - and there are some excellent models in each range.
But lately.... I really do not like many of their big models in either range.
There are still some wonderful models - I think that their terrain looks just fine, thank you.
But the horrible sphinx thing? The Mortis Engine? That oogly-not-in-a-good-way giant spider for the Orcs?
Ech.
Right now watching GW is like watching a giant slipping on a banana peel - either he will manage to get his feet back under himself or he will fall over. Either way, keep an eye on him to either avoid having him fall on you, or just so you can laugh as he flails around wildly.
It is still a giant in trouble.
I have not bought GW in a long while - even the models that I actually like. The value for money just is not there for me, anymore.
Sean_OBrien wrote: I think the OP might be confusing critical review with bashing.
Buying finecast models and pointing out flaws in them is not bashing.
Pointing out problems in GW's pricing policy is not bashing.
Criticizing a company for producing error ridden rule books is not bashing.
Questioning the reasoning of things like dropping tournament support or in store gaming is not bashing.
Having a good laugh about the design of the latest flyer is not bashing.
Voicing an opinion about retail policies (Australian Embargo, internet sales ban...) is not bashing.
Reflecting on historical changes through the management and design teams are not bashing.
Expressing annoyance (even outrage) that a company forgets where it came from and attempts to shut down upstarts (whether they are 3rd party bits or science fiction authors) is not bashing.
There are a lot of threads in general about GW - here and elsewhere. Some of them do contain a few people who are bashing for the sake of bashing. Others provide reasoned responses and positions...quite often against GW's policy faux pas of the day, week, month, year... One of the nice things about the internet is that you can easily ignore those who are unreasonable or purposefully obtuse (which you see nearly as many who support GW for no particular reason at all as well as you see the bashing with no particular basis behind it).
Nothing but love does GW no good (or any other company for that matter). We know that they read the forums (both for evidence for their legal pursuits and for the next target of a C&D letter) to some extent.
+1 Sean.
As an example of Sean's point, this particular post by Sean is not bashing GW, even though it points out much that can be perceived as negative without providing anything positive.
The problem that GW is having in terms of customer perception is that repeated 'bad news' that comes right on the heels of other 'bad news' is feeding an ever-growing cycle of negativity towards the company. Customers barely have breathing room before GW does something else objectively subject to criticism.
More and more people are coming to expectGW to do things that are objectively subject to criticism and it has begin to color perceptions of GW's behavior. In the past year so much has happened that customers have barely had breathing room within which to allow their perceptions of the company heal. GW is doing itself severe harm, and it is harm that is beginning to become permanent.
Imagine what would happen if by the beginning of May GW got trashed in the Chapterhouse Studios trial. That thing is on deck. It is not a joke. GW's asserted intellectual property is exposed in a big way. A jury of 12 Chicagoans who don't give a flip about miniature wargaming are going to hold one of GW's self-professed most valuable assets in their hands on April 22nd.
Imagine what would happen if that were followed by a dismal financial report, a lawsuit over the new trade terms, and another price increase? The pace of 'bad news' has been breakneck and I can't see it slowing anytime soon.
Regarding quality: I believe GW has themselves to blame for the sheer amount of lamenting over quality. I have 2 GW stores within driving distance. In both I have heard the black shirts justify the prices by claiming they are the Apple of miniatures with the highest quality items available.
I had to leave on both occassions before I pissed them off by laughing too much. The fact is that GW has had serious missteps lately. They claim to have the highest quality, but ship incredible numbers of faulty product showing they have no quality control in place (finecast).
They have recently shipped codexes which had to be FAQ'd BEFORE those books were in consumers hands. It takes a long time to bring a new codex to play. You have to write it, test it, make changes (rinse/repeat), review it, spell check it, give it to the group for layout, review it again and finally print them. With the problems, it appears they have skimped on one or more of testing, reviewing and simple spell checking. Why on earth would you go to so much trouble just to allow these easily corrected imperfections?
That is just one of the problems.
I work in the Software industry and unfortunately, most companies skip on the whole testing phase simply because it is so incredibly easy to patch the thing later. With a printed book, at the very least I expect it to be spell checked. (Yes, I have written BL on numerous occasions covering this topic). Further, I expect them to be professional enough to make review things for consistency. After all, a FAQ is not the same as a bound and printed book in your hand that should last years. Most of the challenge rules were ripped apart once players started using it and asking questions. The problems should have been found in testing.
GW makes millions a year. $200k would buy an awful lot of people to provide QC on the literary and playtesting front. Point is that it's completely within their grasp, they just don't want to do it. If this were a startup, I'd could completely see such issues. But they aren't. They are the established gorilla and have the resources to solve these issues.
So, what we end up with is a company claiming to be the paragon of quality but which ships product known to be faulty before it's even opened. Not good and completely predictable given their own statements. Essentially, any time you have a company making a claim then doing the exact opposite you will have those pointing out the problems. There are examples everywhere on numerous companies about this, even Google is criticized for their lack of conviction with their "Do no evil" statements.
------
For the most part, I like GW's product. I currently have 9 armies. I'm considering buying another one, just haven't decided which. This is a serious amount of cash I've spent. Will I stop? Probably not any time soon. As I said, I generally like the product. However, these quality issues are irritating; and that's not my only issue with them.
"Objectively subject to criticism" is a false concept, since there are multiple takes on anything. There are forums where people say "Wow, Tau sold out! GW really hit the mark with this release!" and there are forums (like this one) where people say "Wow, Tau sold out! GW can't even forecast how much product to supply anymore!"
To put things another way, I can absolutely guarantee that if GW were to drop prices in 2 months, there would be people complaining about it. In practice there tend not to be moves that are uniformly considered positive or negative.
Kingsley wrote: "Objectively subject to criticism" is a false concept, since there are multiple takes on anything. There are forums where people say "Wow, Tau sold out! GW really hit the mark with this release!" and there are forums (like this one) where people say "Wow, Tau sold out! GW can't even forecast how much product to supply anymore!"
Well if you have 50 people wanting to buy your widget, and only make 4, and then sell all 4, that is in fact a problem. It's hard to say how many people actually want the widget, but selling out very quickly isn't necessarily an ideal situation imo.
Wow, now we really are down to just copying and pasting.
I too have grown a little weary of the GW hate threads. This doesn't mean though that I think GW is perfect. I think a lot of greivances are well-founded and I'm actually not sure where I stand on a number of them. I've heard a lot of compelling arguments from both sides on the pricing issue in particular.
I think a huge part of it though is that it has become 'cool' to hate on GW, just like it's now cool to hate Call of Duty. I've also noticed that attacking GW is part of the modus operandi for anyone who likes Privateer Press, which a lot of the time comes off as total insecurity. There was a thread on here recently asking what tabletop games everyone was playing, and someone remarked that the lack of votes for Warmachine was disturbing. Now, I play Warmachine so I'm by no means attacking Privateer Press, but it definitely seems like every Warmachine fan has an agenda to 'liberate' others from the tyranny of GW.
I don't mean to trivialize anyone's greivances though, I'm sure a lot of people who post on here have good reasons for feeling the way they do, I just think a lot MORE people go along for the ride cause it's cool to hate.
Vaktathi wrote: And finally, GW is actually finally getting competition. Not in the "GW is DOOOOMED" type, but 8 years ago there was only 40k and Fantasy to play in most clubs/stores, now there's far more games that are making much more of a consistent and widespread appearance, and they're increasingly doing things right where GW is not.
I think this is the biggest contributor, honestly.
In the past, if GW made a boneheaded move, you accepted it, griped a bit, and moved on. Because if you wanted to play a tabletop wargame, the people at your store/club were more than likely playing GW games, or Historicals. Some other games came and went - Confrontation, AT43, Starship Troopers, etc. They had short lives, and you could sort of tell.
The last 5-6 years, however, have seen a massive change. Other games have staying power. Warmachine/Hordes is the most obvious, but also Infinity, Malifaux, Flames of War, Dystopian Wars, Firestorm Armada... These games are getting table time at clubs and stores, so people are seeing a reason to try them out. They're seeing a reason to not simply take the boneheaded move and move on.
@TheAuldGrump - seriously not cool. I'm an arachnophobic.
Kingsley wrote: "Objectively subject to criticism" is a false concept, since there are multiple takes on anything. There are forums where people say "Wow, Tau sold out! GW really hit the mark with this release!" and there are forums (like this one) where people say "Wow, Tau sold out! GW can't even forecast how much product to supply anymore!"
You DO realize that's basically not what happened. They had a number of preorders to fill; they shorted the FLGS their orders in order to stock their website and GW stores, thereby driving sales to GW direct instead of the FLGS. Compare to another company in a similar situation, Fantasy Flight Games. They pulled all of their X Wing stock from their online store to send to distributors in order to get the product out to FLGS as they were selling out too fast.
Knowing GW's recent track record, I would not be surprised if it became the defacto way of doing business; new releases are direct order only for the first few weeks.
Kingsley wrote: "Objectively subject to criticism" is a false concept, since there are multiple takes on anything. There are forums where people say "Wow, Tau sold out! GW really hit the mark with this release!" and there are forums (like this one) where people say "Wow, Tau sold out! GW can't even forecast how much product to supply anymore!"
You DO realize that's basically not what happened. They had a number of preorders to fill; they shorted the FLGS their orders in order to stock their website and GW stores, thereby driving sales to GW direct instead of the FLGS.
As much as I'm not a fan of GW's policies at the moment - care to prove this is what they did outside of anecdotal evidence?
There's more than enough to dislike about GW without inventing things.
bkiker wrote: I've shopped around and found GW prices are in line with many other table top games. As for quality, I do think improvement can be made, but the levels people are taking it to again is laughable.
Where did you go price comparison shopping? Between GW stores? Much higher quality boutique resin sculpts from other companies are cheaper than GW's finecast and have less QC issues. That's not even counting the metals from other manufacturers. Howsabout plastics? Hell, Perry plastics (who sculpt for GW) are significantly cheaper than GW's own plastics, and look better (unless you prefer shoeless monkey soldiers of the Empire). Dreamforge plastics are an order of magnitude higher quality than anything GW makes and are cheaper as well.
I have no problem with people wanting to stick up for their choice in what to buy, but GW has a GW-tax the same way Apple has an Apple-tax. The Hhhobby is a state of mind. If you don't mind paying more for less, like Apple fans, then go right ahead. It's your dollar. I own plenty of GW stuff and I have just bought some more (second hand, to be sure) as I think GW makes the best beastmen style infantry. They mix well with my Red Box Games Helsvakt and my Mierce Tarvax. I use them for Warhammer 6th Edition Skirmish and then for Kings of War for mass battles.
-Loki- wrote: @TheAuldGrump - seriously not cool. I'm an arachnophobic.
Added a spoiler tag - at least you won't see it when you come back.
Sorry about that - I like spiders, and forget sometimes that others are not fans of the critters.
Now scorpions... those I find creepy....
Even the hairy scorpion, which is pretty danged harmless.
*EDIT* On topic - I would love to have nothing to complain about with GW. I like their settings, I like many of their miniatures (though that has been changing, dangnabit!).
Recently... I just got some Skaven Rat Ogre figures (from the starter set?) and, well... they weren't very good - rather than detailing fur they put in some triangles. No real effort was made to give a feeling of depth.
Which is a shame - GW can, and has, done much better.
As for the Crypt Ghouls.... Could just be the way I feel about their recent style choices... but good gravy....
*EDIT* Removed some material for the Department of the Bureau of Redundancy Agency.
There are a lot of great responses, and I want to thank you all for them. I'll just do a blanket response to points and comments that stuck out to me, and make a more in depth response tomorrow. I have noticed that it is easy to find a negative thread here on Dakka. While, I can accept and tell honest criticism when I see it. It seems that post or even threads like that a hard to come by. I have to wade through a sea of post that are negative for the sake of being negative just to find one or two posts that provide a thoughtful and logical response. As one poster put it, I have read a few compelling post for both sides of some of the issues that I brought up.
Creeping-deth87 I think a fair job in summarizing my feelings. I don't think GW is perfect, and I love to have a critical conversation. I have leveled a few criticisms towards GW myself. It's the level and the meanness that threads and posters are going that is turning me off from the hobby more than anything GW does.
bkiker wrote: I hope I'm mistaken and have just stumbled into wrong threads and topics.
Unfortunately, you haven't. The community here on Dakka (and especially here on Dakka Discussions) has become extremely anti-GW over the years. It's more or less guaranteed that any new piece of news regarding GW will be viewed negatively by a large fraction of the forum members-- for instance, even Tau selling out has been characterized as a "debacle" by many people on these boards!
In many ways it was a debacle, because they made promises they couldn't keep. My FLGS budgeted for and placed a rather large order with them, they accepted the order and promised a delivery time, and then tried to stiff them out of almost the entire order (a 4 digit $$$ trade account order) and tell them it'd be another 2-3 weeks before they'd see it. That would have been...very bad for sales had they not managed to harangue their account manager into getting them everything but the Riptides.
When it comes to retail, that's indescribably bad business. Especially since they basically have to sit around waiting for the same internet rumors we do in order to budget and prepare for each release as GW gives them almost no more advance warning of new product than the average customer gets, which is a week.
Vaktathi wrote: And finally, GW is actually finally getting competition. Not in the "GW is DOOOOMED" type, but 8 years ago there was only 40k and Fantasy to play in most clubs/stores, now there's far more games that are making much more of a consistent and widespread appearance, and they're increasingly doing things right where GW is not.
I think this is the biggest contributor, honestly.
In the past, if GW made a boneheaded move, you accepted it, griped a bit, and moved on. Because if you wanted to play a tabletop wargame, the people at your store/club were more than likely playing GW games, or Historicals. Some other games came and went - Confrontation, AT43, Starship Troopers, etc. They had short lives, and you could sort of tell.
The last 5-6 years, however, have seen a massive change. Other games have staying power. Warmachine/Hordes is the most obvious, but also Infinity, Malifaux, Flames of War, Dystopian Wars, Firestorm Armada... These games are getting table time at clubs and stores, so people are seeing a reason to try them out. They're seeing a reason to not simply take the boneheaded move and move on.
Indeed. I remember when it was all GW all the time, with some of those random Warmachine players every once in a while. Now I see other games routinely played all the time, and they deliver in areas where GW seems to consistently fail. What GW has going for them is the Warhammer IP and their market share. I have my own opinions better suited to the Background board on how it has taken a downturn in recent years, but the Warhammer/40k universe IP is essentially GW's most valuable asset, over and above their facilities and rules systems. They're coasting largely on the strength of that and their longstanding market share after the US gaming industry massacred itself on the late 80's/early 90's. Now that it's starting to change, that market domination is meaning less, with customers tastes, preferences, and options changing.
I'm not entirely sure what caused the culture of these boards to become so anti-GW, but to be honest I'm growing increasingly tired of it and am tempted to start posting on boards where people are a little more clear-headed.
*(Crack) Prices
*Spots the Space marine
*Crack down on non-GW retailers
*Lack of community relationship
*The Hobbit
*(Notso)Finecast
Grey Templar wrote: Compare the quality of GW models to other miniature companies(not just table top wargame miniatures)
You will find that GW's pricing is quite reasonible for the quality you get. YOu may pay up to twice as much for a model with similar detail and size without any of the customization GW offers.
Just something to consider.
Can you show me a model that costs twice as much as a GW figure but is inferior? You can even cherry pick.
I have an example based on what's on my desk just now. Warlord Games recently launched a plastic soviet infantry box set (late 2012), with 40 fully customizable figures for £28 (£0.70 each). The closest figures from GW would be Imperial Guard infantry (Cadian/Catachan), from about 2003. They've long since paid off their design and tooling and should be pretty cheap? They come in at 10 for £18 (£1.80 each), or 2.5x more expensive, for decade old figures.
The reason this is so baffling is: They are made from the same material in the same way, GW has huge economy of scale benefits over Warlord Games (including in-house casting).
The only thing in GW's favour is that the figures are a bit bigger (heroic Vs normal 28mm), but they are otherwise the same; pretty generic infantry.
It used to be the case that GW's figures were far superior and competitive, but that hasn't been the case for the last couple of years now.
As to the quality thing, finecast was touted as being an advance on par with the moon landing, and they charged a premium over an already premium brand, yet the quality has been shocking (with a significant amount of figures being miscast, and many reports of them sagging). I personally gave up on finecast after 7 (seven) replacement figures, none of which was cast properly. I've never seen a failure rate like it anywhere else, especially from a premium manufacturer.
So anyway, GW does get a lot of abuse, partially because they are the biggest target, but also partially because they are making embarrassing business decisions on a regular basis and are appearing more and more overpriced as time goes on. And it's going to get worse shortly as we're nearly at annual price rise month.
Harriticus wrote:The surge has to do with a variety of acts that all came one on top of the other. Within the last 3 months we've had:
-Further crack downs on online retailers, including the closing of Miniwargaming (a popular site/community)
-Ban on bit sales
-Hobbit mess
-Tau supply debacle
-GW's policies extending to BL, which has made new releases/the HH series more or less grind to a halt.
-Clear-cut scams like "limited edition" codex's that aren't just overpriced, they're actual literal scams that seek to steal your money unfairly
I can understand your point. All these changes coming on top of each other has not given the community time to adapt, accept, or figure out how these changes are going affect them. I would guess any company doing these kind of shuffle would meet a push back from their customer base.
I totally expected that sentence to continue with; "But this is great news!!"
I am absolutely not at all amazed about the recent explosion of critical threads.
There have always been threads about imbalances/codex creep/various rules issues, and there have been regular threads about too-high prices at least since the later nineties. There have also always been threads about corporate decisions.
What has changed in the last 2 years is the speed and amount of changes on a corporate level: Price raises on items that should have (better) become cheaper with a switch to plastic, the "Fine"cast debacle, the continuing bullying of independend retailers and other protective measures to increase net profits through prohibitive sales/distribution policies, absence of professional marketing & community involvement combined with various strong ("bullying") actions to protect what GW defines as being their copyright, trademark and profit span, dropping of gaming from stores... It's really a long list in a short time.
So, there are sound reasons to see a lot more of those "anti-GW" threads. I don't participate, but I can understand why they are there. It's not a big internet conspiracy of people who vent unfounded hate.
It's a reaction to real life actions. Just because you don't give a gak about GW's corporate behaviour (I certainly don't) or have no clue what it all means, it does not make them less legitimate.
I'm not entirely sure what caused the culture of these boards to become so anti-GW, but to be honest I'm growing increasingly tired of it and am tempted to start posting on boards where people are a little more clear-headed.
Be sure to let us know where exactly in Bizzaro-world these forums are. As you'll find pretty much the same underlying opinion of GW in some magnitude or another on any forum you go on, no matter how happy-clappy and hippy-dippy it may seem on the surface.
H.B.M.C. wrote: Yeah. I think Warseer will be a more Kingsley-friendly environment. He can join the GW cheer squad there and spare us his wilful blindness.
Or BoLS. Definitely a GW friendly place - I spotted a few ex-dakka white knights with tarnished armour lurking around there.
Harriticus wrote:The surge has to do with a variety of acts that all came one on top of the other. Within the last 3 months we've had:
-Further crack downs on online retailers, including the closing of Miniwargaming (a popular site/community) -Ban on bit sales -Hobbit mess -Tau supply debacle -GW's policies extending to BL, which has made new releases/the HH series more or less grind to a halt. -Clear-cut scams like "limited edition" codex's that aren't just overpriced, they're actual literal scams that seek to steal your money unfairly
I can understand your point. All these changes coming on top of each other has not given the community time to adapt, accept, or figure out how these changes are going affect them. I would guess any company doing these kind of shuffle would meet a push back from their customer base.
Except that there are other issues besides just those issues... Finecast was released almost 2 full years ago. When they announced it they said,
"we launch the highest quality miniatures the world has ever seen - Citadel Finecast." - Andy Hall " On the 28th of May we launch Citadel Finecast, miniatures of such exquisite detail that they are the closest representation of the sculptors' original that we have ever been able to make. Until you hold one in your hand and see it for yourself, it's hard to describe just how detailed they are." "There are no other miniatures that exist of this quality and manufactured on this scale in the world" Source: http://www.games-workshop.com/gws/content/blogPost.jsp?aId=16700019a (May 23rd, 2011)
Now you're probably saying, "Alf, there's no way Finecast could be anything BUT the best in the world." Well OP, just let me link you to this little gem.
Not to mention my own issues with finecast, a year and a half after it's release... I've seen startups with less issues in their production.
And then there is the changes in white dwarf, sure it's a bigger magazine, but it's still almost half advertisements. I haven't bought one because there's nothing of interest in them. And then let's not forget the issues with a Sisters of Battle 2 issue WD Codex, issues you can't buy, and a pdf of this is still unavailable. Hell they could sell it for 5 bucks through iBooks and make a killing from all of the Sisters players that need a codex.
There are just so many things over the past 2 and a half years that GW has done that just kills any good will they had. I mean this awesome new release schedule has been great for players, yet they ballsed it up with the Tau release (selling out because they didn't make enough).
It's just extremely annoying seeing a game company such as this, which should have NO issues with how they run things, just screwing up left and right...
I'm not entirely sure what caused the culture of these boards to become so anti-GW, but to be honest I'm growing increasingly tired of it and am tempted to start posting on boards where people are a little more clear-headed.
Be sure to let us know where exactly in Bizzaro-world these forums are. As you'll find pretty much the same underlying opinion of GW in some magnitude or another on any forum you go on, no matter how happy-clappy and hippy-dippy it may seem on the surface.
At least Dakka is honest.
Well, if you really want discussion in a less negative environment, than going elsewhere isn't a bad idea.
Though it reminds me of the guy that keeps getting into bar fights, but never goes to a different place. Maybe the fights are the reason to go?
I'm not entirely sure what caused the culture of these boards to become so anti-GW, but to be honest I'm growing increasingly tired of it and am tempted to start posting on boards where people are a little more clear-headed.
Be sure to let us know where exactly in Bizzaro-world these forums are. As you'll find pretty much the same underlying opinion of GW in some magnitude or another on any forum you go on, no matter how happy-clappy and hippy-dippy it may seem on the surface.
At least Dakka is honest.
Well, if you really want discussion in a less negative environment, than going elsewhere isn't a bad idea.
Though it reminds me of the guy that keeps getting into bar fights, but never goes to a different place. Maybe the fights are the reason to go?
I know it's definitely the reason certain people aren't on my ignore list
There are a lot of legitimate grievances, but I still think that the atmosphere is ridiculously negative. "Flyer rules from out-of- print WDs are not available!" "GW is ripping us off with this flyer supplement!" "GW is not updating codices fast enough!" "GW is releasing codices too fast" "Why GW doesn't do FAQs faster?" "GW releases the FAQ right after the codex, this sucks!" Not to mention all the complaints how models are horrible when we see first leaked grainy pictures of them. It is just becoming boy crying wolf. Real issues get buried in all the pointless whining about pretty much everything.
Crimson wrote: There are a lot of legitimate grievances, but I still think that the atmosphere is ridiculously negative. "Flyer rules from out-of- print WDs are not available!" "GW is ripping us off with this flyer supplement!" "GW is not updating codices fast enough!" "GW is releasing codices too fast" "Why GW doesn't do FAQs faster?" "GW releases the FAQ right after the codex, this sucks!" Not to mention all the complaints how models are horrible when we see first leaked grainy pictures of them. It is just becoming boy crying wolf. Real issues get buried in all the pointless whining about pretty much everything.
Strange how not a single person complained about those issues in this thread or any of the others that I've read about (except the flyer supplement that was both a large middle finger to FLGS and a rip-off to most customers).
Be careful you don't get dizzy with all that spinning!
Crimson wrote: There are a lot of legitimate grievances, but I still think that the atmosphere is ridiculously negative. "Flyer rules from out-of- print WDs are not available!" "GW is ripping us off with this flyer supplement!" "GW is not updating codices fast enough!" "GW is releasing codices too fast" "Why GW doesn't do FAQs faster?" "GW releases the FAQ right after the codex, this sucks!" Not to mention all the complaints how models are horrible when we see first leaked grainy pictures of them. It is just becoming boy crying wolf. Real issues get buried in all the pointless whining about pretty much everything.
The only one of those complaints that seems a bit out of line is "GW is releasing codices too fast" and honestly I have not actually seen that. I have seen (and have myself) questioned what they will do next as that fast release schedule is not inline with their current business model and will lead to dramatic swings in sales if they dont use some other stop gap. That isnt a complaint though, rather an observation for discussion.
Other than that...
Flyer rules unavailable? Significant problem for stores, new gamers, old gamers and tournaments.
Flyer supplement a rip off? The rules were in what...two or three different issues of WD? If I had spent the money on those, I would feel a good bit annoyed that GW released a consolidated book and changed things enough in the book to invalidate the magazines for 'official' use.
Slow codex updates? Long been a problem. Each edition releases new quirks in the rules. Armies that get updated get new kits to take advantage of those quirks. Armies without updates get left behind and are often at a handicap versus an army with a current codex.
Slow FAQs? When a problem is identified in the rules, in the digital age...they should update it the same day. They are not doing revised print editions, or publishing it through a source like WD. There really isnt ny reason not to.
FAQed right after print? A rulebook that you are spending $40-50 for should have been tested and proofread. That isnt really too much to ask for when paying premium prices.
Complaints regarding the models are issues of personal taste. I find a majority of new releases to look ridiculously toy like. Some people like them. I dont see a difference between someone saying that looks bad versus someone saying that looks good. Poke around news releases for other companies and you see the exact same thing. That is why there are hundreds of companies producing miniatures in dozens of styles.
Harriticus wrote: The surge has to do with a variety of acts that all came one on top of the other. Within the last 3 months we've had:
-Further crack downs on online retailers, including the closing of Miniwargaming (a popular site/community)
-Ban on bit sales
-Hobbit mess
-Tau supply debacle
-GW's policies extending to BL, which has made new releases/the HH series more or less grind to a halt.
-Clear-cut scams like "limited edition" codex's that aren't just overpriced, they're actual literal scams that seek to steal your money unfairly
One at a time:
-they already had an online retail policy. While it makes little sense, it was part of GW's sales contract. However, nothing prevents a store from using a second-party dealer like ACD. And GW did not shut down Miniwargaming, MWG did.
-no sense. you are right
-not a popular license, made no sense again.
-stuff happens. I guess GW was at fault for the shipment of Falcons on the bottom of the Atlantic, too?
-no idea.
-that's what limited editions are. I have yet to hear about Nikon being sued for charging $1000 extra for a commemorative edition camera that already sold for $2500 just to change a logo and the color of the metal.
Have they made some bone-headed decisions? yes. Are we shareholders? No. Until we are, they are not accountable to us. Ever look at old catalogs? Some of the prices haven't changed much until recently. Couldn't it be possible that they had not adjusted properly for inflation or economic shifts?
There are too many GW bashers out there. If you don't like their policies, either tell them.or stop whining about it. If tou don't want to give them your money, fine, either buy second-hand or find another game. Screaming to the internet forums is like kicking a brick wall, it does nothing.
SoloFalcon1138 wrote: Have they made some bone-headed decisions? yes. Are we shareholders? No. Until we are, they are not accountable to us. Ever look at old catalogs? Some of the prices haven't changed much until recently. Couldn't it be possible that they had not adjusted properly for inflation or economic shifts?
Harriticus wrote: The surge has to do with a variety of acts that all came one on top of the other. Within the last 3 months we've had:
-Further crack downs on online retailers, including the closing of Miniwargaming (a popular site/community)
-Ban on bit sales
-Hobbit mess
-Tau supply debacle
-GW's policies extending to BL, which has made new releases/the HH series more or less grind to a halt.
-Clear-cut scams like "limited edition" codex's that aren't just overpriced, they're actual literal scams that seek to steal your money unfairly
One at a time:
-they already had an online retail policy. While it makes little sense, it was part of GW's sales contract. However, nothing prevents a store from using a second-party dealer like ACD. And GW did not shut down Miniwargaming, MWG did.
-no sense. you are right
-not a popular license, made no sense again.
-stuff happens. I guess GW was at fault for the shipment of Falcons on the bottom of the Atlantic, too?
-no idea.
-that's what limited editions are. I have yet to hear about Nikon being sued for charging $1000 extra for a commemorative edition camera that already sold for $2500 just to change a logo and the color of the metal.
Have they made some bone-headed decisions? yes. Are we shareholders? No. Until we are, they are not accountable to us. Ever look at old catalogs? Some of the prices haven't changed much until recently. Couldn't it be possible that they had not adjusted properly for inflation or economic shifts?
There are too many GW bashers out there. If you don't like their policies, either tell them.or stop whining about it. If tou don't want to give them your money, fine, either buy second-hand or find another game. Screaming to the internet forums is like kicking a brick wall, it does nothing.
MWG made 80% of their profit from online sales, they were considering closing the physical store, GW solidified that and nuked their webstore.
Grey Templar wrote: Compare the quality of GW models to other miniature companies(not just table top wargame miniatures)
You will find that GW's pricing is quite reasonible for the quality you get. YOu may pay up to twice as much for a model with similar detail and size without any of the customization GW offers.
Just something to consider.
I have to disagree with this. Tamiya models in the same scale as GW vehicles are significantly less expensive and are higher in detail and quality. The GW Leman Russ is $49.50 and is an ok model. The Tamiya 1/48 scale Marder tank hunter model has more pieces, higher detail, and working treads/suspension and recoil system on the gun, and it costs $34.00. The most expensive model in Tamiya's 1/48 scale line is $42.00, and the worst Tamiya model is of higher detail and quality than GW vehicle models. Tamiya plastic models had the weld marks molded into tank hulls 25 years ago.
Harriticus wrote: The surge has to do with a variety of acts that all came one on top of the other. Within the last 3 months we've had:
-Further crack downs on online retailers, including the closing of Miniwargaming (a popular site/community)
-Ban on bit sales
-Hobbit mess
-Tau supply debacle
-GW's policies extending to BL, which has made new releases/the HH series more or less grind to a halt.
-Clear-cut scams like "limited edition" codex's that aren't just overpriced, they're actual literal scams that seek to steal your money unfairly
One at a time:
-they already had an online retail policy. While it makes little sense, it was part of GW's sales contract. However, nothing prevents a store from using a second-party dealer like ACD. And GW did not shut down Miniwargaming, MWG did.
-no sense. you are right
-not a popular license, made no sense again.
-stuff happens. I guess GW was at fault for the shipment of Falcons on the bottom of the Atlantic, too?
-no idea.
-that's what limited editions are. I have yet to hear about Nikon being sued for charging $1000 extra for a commemorative edition camera that already sold for $2500 just to change a logo and the color of the metal.
Have they made some bone-headed decisions? yes. Are we shareholders? No. Until we are, they are not accountable to us. Ever look at old catalogs? Some of the prices haven't changed much until recently. Couldn't it be possible that they had not adjusted properly for inflation or economic shifts?
There are too many GW bashers out there. If you don't like their policies, either tell them.or stop whining about it. If tou don't want to give them your money, fine, either buy second-hand or find another game. Screaming to the internet forums is like kicking a brick wall, it does nothing.
MWG made 80% of their profit from online sales, they were considering closing the physical store, GW solidified that and nuked their webstore.
Sounds like a poor business model. But unless GW directly told MWG to shut down, it was collateral damage. Pick your arguments with more precision.
I hate how GW forces me to buy their stuff, its ridiculous its like i have no choice.
oh wait... that didn't happen.
If you don't like the company or what they do don't buy their stuff and if you are SOOO righteous don't even buy it second hand like i know a lot of you haters like to brag about doing. No one is forcing you to play with these toys. You people are just ridiculous. Get over yourselves. If you want to hate a corporation why not focus on hating one that REALLY deserves it, like Monsanto, Pfizer, or one of those REAL evil corporations who really DO NOT give you a choice.
Baldsmug wrote: I hate how GW forces me to buy their stuff, its ridiculous its like i have no choice.
oh wait... that didn't happen.
If you don't like the company or what they do don't buy their stuff and if you are SOOO righteous don't even buy it second hand like i know a lot of you haters like to brag about doing. No one is forcing you to play with these toys. You people are just ridiculous. Get over yourselves. If you want to hate a corporation why not focus on hating one that REALLY deserves it, like Monsanto, Pfizer, or one of those REAL evil corporations who really DO NOT give you a choice.
Wow, ad hominem and straw man combined. The Hooobbby is strong with this one!
Usually I would make some sort of smarmy reply here, but you've managed to embarrassed yourself enough already...
I'm not entirely sure what caused the culture of these boards to become so anti-GW
GW. It was GW.
Baldsmug wrote:I hate how GW forces me to buy their stuff, its ridiculous its like i have no choice.
oh wait... that didn't happen.
If you don't like the company or what they do don't buy their stuff and if you are SOOO righteous don't even buy it second hand like i know a lot of you haters like to brag about doing. No one is forcing you to play with these toys. You people are just ridiculous. Get over yourselves. If you want to hate a corporation why not focus on hating one that REALLY deserves it, like Monsanto, Pfizer, or one of those REAL evil corporations who really DO NOT give you a choice.
Cool story.
You do realise it's possible to be critical of something or someone without sounding like you're defending Britney on YouTube?
He has a point. This is a hobby, not a staple of life. If you don't like it, get out of it or find a new one.
Is GW making some bizarre business choices? yes, but without any further information, we are just yelling at brick walls about things we cannot change.
Baldsmug wrote: I hate how GW forces me to buy their stuff, its ridiculous its like i have no choice.
oh wait... that didn't happen.
If you don't like the company or what they do don't buy their stuff and if you are SOOO righteous don't even buy it second hand like i know a lot of you haters like to brag about doing. No one is forcing you to play with these toys. You people are just ridiculous. Get over yourselves. If you want to hate a corporation why not focus on hating one that REALLY deserves it, like Monsanto, Pfizer, or one of those REAL evil corporations who really DO NOT give you a choice.
Baldsmug wrote: What if they had stolen online PDFs and a really nice scratch built model that was painted really well. And they presented you with a packet that included any AI rules they might be using as well as a list that was done in excel and included all items of wargear in a well laid out manner to go along with an army that is WYSIWYG. Would that be good enough for you? cause thats how i role
Psienesis wrote: It's not just miniatures gaming that sees this kind of activity, it's everything. The Internet is, after all, a Global Hate Machine.
Mostly this. And Dakka's actually fairly friendly compared to some forums out there.
HOWEVER, in this veteran's opinion, this is the most negative Dakka's been in the Yakface era. And I'm not talking about measured, critical analysis -- some of that does exist here -- but the rise in negative and repetitive content-void posting. I'm not sure what can be done about that without some fairly harsh modding. The old 40K mailing list had a ban on all pricing discussions, for instance. Seems harsh, but then it really did remove a lot of the noise. *shrug*
I really can't blame people. Just skim over the last few months and you'll realize that GW does not hide their customer-hating attitude - unbelievable price increases, closing gaming possibilities, lower quality miniatures-wise, trying to shut FLGS down or limit them as hard as possible etc.
SoloFalcon wrote: Are we shareholders? No. Until we are, they are not accountable to us.
As an economist and an MBA, I can tell you this line of thinking is silly, for several reasons. The most fundamental being that the Shareholders don't pay GW's bills
One will notice that successful companies showing actual consistent growth generally do not take this view.
Yes, they do bear a responsibility to the shareholder, but the shareholder is also the last guy in line to get paid, and if the organization is not holding itself accountable to the customer, then the customer may not purchase their products, meaning the organization does not get paid and ultimately the shareholder derives no value from their investment (which at this point such investment is not actually an investment in GW since it's going to previous shareholders). The organization exists to make money by selling items of value to the customer, and if that value doesn't exist or is depleted, then that organizations ability to earn is impaired.
GW's actual shareholders are largely irrelevant in terms of their operation of the business as they're hedge funds that just park small portions of their cash in GW as part of a larger portfolio of stocks, save for one, Tom Kirby, who primarily cares about dividend payments and ensures those happens regardless of how the business does by borrowing money to pay them if he has to. The shareholders in this case are largely transient and the one aspect that actually matters to any of them is being ensured, for good or ill, so largely, unless they *really* bottom out, they couldn't care less about what's going on. And it shows
Are they "accountable" to the customer in the same sense that they are to the shareholders? No, there obviously is no chain of command, but if they don't hold themselves accountable to the demands of the consumer base, then in the long term they are in trouble.
I also tend to think that recent policies by GW don't actually a lot to do with the gradual trend here. IMO, they're given some people something to hold onto and wave, but they haven't actually changed many people's opinions.
I was on rec.games.miniatures.warhammer in the mid and late 90s, when prices were better, WD had content, miniatures were metal and not Finecast, GW had bits service, the studio previewed stuff months in advance, and GW only had maybe 5 stores in the entire U.S. and wasn't trying to compete with FLGSs. And that forum had plenty of GW hate.
Ultimately I think when you put GW, the Internet, and gamers into a bottle together and allow some time, a chemical reaction is just going to happen. The particulars aren't really an important piece of the process.
SoloFalcon1138 wrote: He has a point. This is a hobby, not a staple of life. If you don't like it, get out of it or find a new one.
Is GW making some bizarre business choices? yes, but without any further information, we are just yelling at brick walls about things we cannot change.
Of course everyone is here voluntarily, but if I was going to find a new hobby, I would rather choose to than feel I was forced to. I'm just glad that there are so many good alternatives these days, if this was 10 years ago we'd be royally fethed.
It's fairly widely accepted that GW does monitor sites like these, so it may not be a total exercise in shouting at a wall, and even if it is, talking about things that upset, annoy or anger you with others of a similar opinion or debating them with those that disagree is healthy and cathartic. Much better than having to seethe in silence or try and explain to friends or family why you're so upset about your toys.
SoloFalcon1138 wrote: He has a point. This is a hobby, not a staple of life. If you don't like it, get out of it or find a new one.
Is GW making some bizarre business choices? yes, but without any further information, we are just yelling at brick walls about things we cannot change.
Of course everyone is here voluntarily, but if I was going to find a new hobby, I would rather choose to than feel I was forced to. I'm just glad that there are so many good alternatives these days, if this was 10 years ago we'd be royally fethed.
It's fairly widely accepted that GW does monitor sites like these, so it may not be a total exercise in shouting at a wall, and even if it is, talking about things that upset, annoy or anger you with others of a similar opinion or debating them with those that disagree is healthy and cathartic. Much better than having to seethe in silence or try and explain to friends or family why you're so upset about your toys.
Yeah while I agree that some of the people replying to the haters can use the odd strawman, I think the point is entirely relevant, a hobby isnt like a drug or medication, its not worth the same amount of vitriol.
At the end of the day, I have been called a "white knight" before by the more vitriolic posters, and I have never bought a finecast model, actively want GW to lose their case against chapterhouse, and think that all kinds of the gak they do is barmy. The internet simply makes absolutely everything a black and white issue, so people have to turn it into "white knight" and "hater" instead of simply being relatively unconcerned because its just a hobby, and making the odd observation.
So ive fallen foul with some of the more militant "haters" on here and argued with them, despite the fact I really am nonchalantly ambivalent to GW and spend feth all on their products. Simply because the are just the other side of the same coin, namely.. people that take their hobby far too fething seriously.
I think if we ban the word "strawman" on dakka, the level of debate would increase massively.
I am constantly pissed off about GW's prices, finecast, over-powered codexes, and the blackshirts' lack of knowledge about the game. But I still get called a GW lover. I think someone somewhere said that I was actually a GW employee
I think one should also note that at least there is discussion. It would be worse if there was no discussion because people just didn't care. No matter how good or bad something is, there will be people who actively bash it. Typically, it depends on that person's hot button issues.
SoloFalcon1138 wrote: He has a point. This is a hobby, not a staple of life. If you don't like it, get out of it or find a new one.
Is GW making some bizarre business choices? yes, but without any further information, we are just yelling at brick walls about things we cannot change.
Of course everyone is here voluntarily, but if I was going to find a new hobby, I would rather choose to than feel I was forced to. I'm just glad that there are so many good alternatives these days, if this was 10 years ago we'd be royally fethed.
It's fairly widely accepted that GW does monitor sites like these, so it may not be a total exercise in shouting at a wall, and even if it is, talking about things that upset, annoy or anger you with others of a similar opinion or debating them with those that disagree is healthy and cathartic. Much better than having to seethe in silence or try and explain to friends or family why you're so upset about your toys.
Yeah while I agree that some of the people replying to the haters can use the odd strawman, I think the point is entirely relevant, a hobby isnt like a drug or medication, its not worth the same amount of vitriol.
At the end of the day, I have been called a "white knight" before by the more vitriolic posters, and I have never bought a finecast model, actively want GW to lose their case against chapterhouse, and think that all kinds of the gak they do is barmy. The internet simply makes absolutely everything a black and white issue, so people have to turn it into "white knight" and "hater" instead of simply being relatively unconcerned because its just a hobby, and making the odd observation.
So ive fallen foul with some of the more militant "haters" on here and argued with them, despite the fact I really am nonchalantly ambivalent to GW and spend feth all on their products. Simply because the are just the other side of the same coin, namely.. people that take their hobby far too fething seriously.
I find the most frustrating thing is I (rightly or wrongly) genuinely feel I could do better! To anyone who has any experience running a business or in management the urge to grab GW off the current management while shouting 'fething give it here, like this, not like that you fool!' almost unbearable. That in turn is driven by having a long relationship with the IP and a strong desire to see it fulfil it's potential and be so much more than it is.
I probably over prioritise right now, as I use wargaming as a focus, not being able to work through ill health it gives me something to keep my brain active and engaged. But I am aware of this, and I suspect those you've run afoul of lack the necessary perspective to appreciate the fact that they take it too seriously.
BryllCream wrote: I think if we ban the concept of "strawman" on dakka, the level of debate would increase massively.
I am constantly pissed off about GW's prices, finecast, over-powered codexes, and the blackshirts' lack of knowledge about the game. But I still get called a GW lover. I think someone somewhere said that I was actually a GW employee
It's the law of retail - upset customers will always talk more about their experience than happy customers. The people who look for a forum are typically either A. competitive, tactically minded players looking to help their game or B. Customers upset about something and looking to vent. The former are likely to complain about rules that do not help them win games and balance issues, and the latter are likely to complain about everything - they are already dissatisfied. So what do you expect to see? You can find anti-GW screeds going back years on forums - they were never rare.
GW currently makes a pretty quality product, which makes errors like their balancing of flyers more notable (unbalanced was the rule of the day in some previous editions, and unremarkable). Some of their recent business moves are bone headed, but that is largely irrelevant from player perspective. People just like to gripe. Prices are an issue, but quite possibly an inevitable one when dealing with a niche market like this.
BryllCream wrote: I think if we ban the word "strawman" on dakka, the level of debate would increase massively.
But then what on earth would your posts contain?
The same as they did before, without the need for anyone replying to me to use the word "strawman" when they mean "we're talking about different things".
Baldsmug wrote: I hate how GW forces me to buy their stuff, its ridiculous its like i have no choice.
oh wait... that didn't happen.
If you don't like the company or what they do don't buy their stuff and if you are SOOO righteous don't even buy it second hand like i know a lot of you haters like to brag about doing. No one is forcing you to play with these toys. You people are just ridiculous. Get over yourselves. If you want to hate a corporation why not focus on hating one that REALLY deserves it, like Monsanto, Pfizer, or one of those REAL evil corporations who really DO NOT give you a choice.
Baldsmug wrote: What if they had stolen online PDFs and a really nice scratch built model that was painted really well. And they presented you with a packet that included any AI rules they might be using as well as a list that was done in excel and included all items of wargear in a well laid out manner to go along with an army that is WYSIWYG. Would that be good enough for you? cause thats how i role
Interesting
Aren't you clever. Great out of context quote about using scratchbuilt models and IA rules from a while back. or are you just trying to attack my character to prove some point? I may have gotten some not so legit PDFs but that doesn't mean i am trying to bring down GW or bear any ill will toward them. Just so ya know, i still have to buy my models, just like everyone else and prefer to get them brand new from my FLGS. And if it makes you feel better I am working on actually purchasing the codex's and IA books which are applicable for my army, but since i don't really play that often so I tend to spend more money on the models. I am not one of those " I hate GW because i read it on the internet so i am only going to buy my models second hand to keep them from getting any of my money" type of people. I am more of a I will buy any models i can get for the money i have to spend and I would really like to read the books first before i spend money that could be used to get more models type of guy. Thanks for checking out my old quotes though, and i hope you took a look at my P&M blog while you were rooting around in there.
Ehhh, if I needed GW to live I would have a problem with a lot of the things they are doing. I would then also agree that a lot of these things (like pricing) is a problem.
However I don't need it to live, it is a luxury and it is a luxury that I would stop playing in a heart beat if I stopped getting my value out of it.
Now if you want to make the comparative value argument my first question is "Well why are you not playing that one?" There are plenty of other factors that are preventing you from doing so, however since those are harder to quantify people complain about the price since it is solid. Value is more than just a dollar figure,
On the codex errors, your right I wish they would have caught some of these things. However over all the product is satisfactory for me. If you want to compare fault free items to not. They will send you a new one almost no questions asked. Do they have their problems? Sure, but I will give them respect for being the only company that I know of that has made it for 30ish years now. They, like magic, have found a way to survive through such a volatile economic period. How many times has something come along that is going to be "the warhammer replacement" yet they are no longer here, and GW still is.
BryllCream wrote: I think if we ban the word "strawman" on dakka, the level of debate would increase massively.
But then what on earth would your posts contain?
The same as they did before, without the need for anyone replying to me to use the word "strawman" when they mean "we're talking about different things".
But what would people do when you do introduce strawman arguments?
I suppose we could all start saying 'red herring'.
SoloFalcon1138 wrote: He has a point. This is a hobby, not a staple of life. If you don't like it, get out of it or find a new one.
Is GW making some bizarre business choices? yes, but without any further information, we are just yelling at brick walls about things we cannot change.
Then really the only thing anybody could complain about is the government. Even then, you could say they should move.
"I'm having a really hard time with my wife of 20 years." "What the hell, man, she's not holding a gun to your head. You're there voluntarily!"
If you own a fully painted GW army, you have a large investment of time and money into a hobby, and leaving isn't as easy as, say, finding a new restaruant.
Baldsmug wrote: I hate how GW forces me to buy their stuff, its ridiculous its like i have no choice.
oh wait... that didn't happen.
If you don't like the company or what they do don't buy their stuff and if you are SOOO righteous don't even buy it second hand like i know a lot of you haters like to brag about doing. No one is forcing you to play with these toys. You people are just ridiculous. Get over yourselves. If you want to hate a corporation why not focus on hating one that REALLY deserves it, like Monsanto, Pfizer, or one of those REAL evil corporations who really DO NOT give you a choice.
Baldsmug wrote: What if they had stolen online PDFs and a really nice scratch built model that was painted really well. And they presented you with a packet that included any AI rules they might be using as well as a list that was done in excel and included all items of wargear in a well laid out manner to go along with an army that is WYSIWYG. Would that be good enough for you? cause thats how i role
Interesting
Aren't you clever. Great out of context quote about using scratchbuilt models and IA rules from a while back. or are you just trying to attack my character to prove some point? I may have gotten some not so legit PDFs but that doesn't mean i am trying to bring down GW or bear any ill will toward them. Just so ya know, i still have to buy my models, just like everyone else and prefer to get them brand new from my FLGS. And if it makes you feel better I am working on actually purchasing the codex's and IA books which are applicable for my army, but since i don't really play that often so I tend to spend more money on the models. I am not one of those " I hate GW because i read it on the internet so i am only going to buy my models second hand to keep them from getting any of my money" type of people. I am more of a I will buy any models i can get for the money i have to spend and I would really like to read the books first before i spend money that could be used to get more models type of guy. Thanks for checking out my old quotes though, and i hope you took a look at my P&M blog while you were rooting around in there.
What's out of context about my quote? You say in the quote that you stole an Imperial Armour pdf to play your scratch built model. Is this inaccurate? Is there more to the story than that summary?
I just find it funny that someone who is telling people they don't NEED to buy GW products, and that they should get over it, is stealing from GW because he doesn't want to buy it
SoloFalcon wrote: Are we shareholders? No. Until we are, they are not accountable to us.
As an economist and an MBA, I can tell you this line of thinking is silly, for several reasons. The most fundamental being that the Shareholders don't pay GW's bills
Have you actually ever worked in management at a publicly traded company? Those large share holders have a direct line to the front office. They have the ability to kick a CEO out if they don't like them. You ignore them at your own peril. This is from the father of a friend who went to work at a publicly traded bank in Italy. They saw CEOs move in and out fast. You had one quarter to improve things before the share holders called a no confidence vote.
GW being a publicly traded company, they have to put information out that makes it easier to twist the numbers into saying the company is doing good or bad. None of the other companies have to put out those numbers. We don't know CMoN, PP, Warlords, or Corvus Belli's numbers and how much their owners make. Though several people have said that the owners of CMoN have gotten new BMW sports cars in the last year.
Also, people saying how Whineseer is a pro-GW site shows that there is a very negative attitude here. But then again, people like to go to sites that reinforce their views, not question them usually.
Also, people saying how Whineseer is a pro-GW site shows that there is a very negative attitude here. But then again, people like to go to sites that reinforce their views, not question them usually.
EDIT: Nevermind, misread your quote.
Obviously I'm not objective, but probably the best way to put it from a more neutral standpoint is Dakka tends to slant toward negativity vis-a-vie GW (with some obvious exceptions) and Warseer seems to slant to more positivity, with some exceptions. Though I've heard the Warseer mods are more strict, so perhaps that has something to do with it. I don't post on Warseer, merely lurk there infrequently.
SoloFalcon1138 wrote: He has a point. This is a hobby, not a staple of life. If you don't like it, get out of it or find a new one.
As with all things, it's shades of grey and not black and white like that. Yes, it's just a hobby, not something I need to live. But it is a hobby of which people invest a lot of time and money. Even if we don't hold shares in the company directly, we are both financially and emotionally invested, which is why people get pissed off when GW does certain things.
Is GW making some bizarre business choices? yes, but without any further information, we are just yelling at brick walls about things we cannot change.
That's a bit of a pessimistic outlook. GW is a publicly traded company, many questions can be answered by analysing their reports, their actions and the wider market (I haven't done much of that as I simply don't have the free time). So it's not just blind complaints, and it's not just talking to brick walls, the more the community gripes about issues, the less GW can sit in an ivory tower and ignore more complaints, less sales and a shrinking market share. Then you have the fact by discussing it you inform others who might read the forums. I'm sure there's many people who wouldn't have known about products outside of GW if it weren't for someone griping "GW did XXXX wrong, look at YYYY company who do it better".
SoloFalcon wrote: Are we shareholders? No. Until we are, they are not accountable to us.
As an economist and an MBA, I can tell you this line of thinking is silly, for several reasons. The most fundamental being that the Shareholders don't pay GW's bills
Have you actually ever worked in management at a publicly traded company? Those large share holders have a direct line to the front office. They have the ability to kick a CEO out if they don't like them. You ignore them at your own peril.
No it really doesn't work like that in reality in the vast, vast majority of cases.
silent25 wrote: [But then again, people like to go to sites that reinforce their views, not question them usually.
there's a certain amount of truth to that. I find that both "sides" tend to overly simplify the issue. I know working out some of the prices of basic troops over the past 10 years, I saw a lot of kits stay more or less the same, while quality only goes up. That doesn't help if you have an army that skyrocketed (IG or Eldar most notably), but I was surprised at how little those core units really went up.
i think that there too many instances of both blind defense of GW, and rehashed and derivative negativity. But, I think most of that has to do with a need to be heard, or a need for conflict.
I'll be honest, for the time I've been here, GW's pretty much been the wargaming anti-christ for the more experienced posters.
The rising prices, the drunken power-mad statements, the idiotic copyright claims...
People often say that because GW is a company, it can get away with it, but that's not true...
Look at this whining, there's probably a strawman in there somewhere, if you don't like gw, noone is forcing you to buy off them , how about you do something, like make your own game! maybe with rules that work and aren't ambiguous! ....oh....wait...you have
one thing that cracks me up about gw is the fact they say we are a miniature making company that makes a game or 2, I am still waiting for them to make models that don't have a place in thier game system. Is that a GW fallacy on why their rules are so shoddy?
SoloFalcon wrote: Are we shareholders? No. Until we are, they are not accountable to us.
As an economist and an MBA, I can tell you this line of thinking is silly, for several reasons. The most fundamental being that the Shareholders don't pay GW's bills
Have you actually ever worked in management at a publicly traded company? Those large share holders have a direct line to the front office. They have the ability to kick a CEO out if they don't like them. You ignore them at your own peril.
No it really doesn't work like that in reality in the vast, vast majority of cases.
I'll trust the word of someone who has experienced this. Plus, if that was the case, shareholder activists like Carl Icahn should be powerless to impact companies? Right?
Polonius wrote: But, I think most of that has to do with a need to be heard, or a need for conflict.
You hit the nail on the head, the reason we have so many of the same threads with the same people posting the exact same content is because they feel 'good' like they are being heard, and want to argue. The truth is while all of these topics are all over the internet, in real life, when you go to all these FLGS and events and meet real life people and play with your figures and such, none of this stuff comes up and half of the complaints simply are not even reality... Your GW sucks? Your FLGS sucks? Your can't get your models cheaply? A book I never heard of almost got taken down? None of those issues effect my reality or anyone else in real life.
Dogs barking in the night. I think going to the modeling subforum and posting pictures of my stuff is much better use of Dakka's website as a whole than people belching out the same laundry list of grievances like it matters or anyone cares.
gunslingerpro wrote: After reading through various threads, many of which can be described as 'GW bashing' by the OPs standard, I have come to two conclusions.
People complain the most when they see a thing they appreciate/enjoy becoming less and less appreciative of them and rather unejoyable.
And where there is smoke, there is fire. The quantity of one entirely unrelated to the other in either direction, but there it is.
Yeah, I'm sure if I never started GW games "back in the day" and got in to other wargames to begin with or whatever, I wouldn't give 2 hoots about them. It's the hundreds of dollars of miniatures and hundreds of hours of painting them that make me give more than a single hoot.
Polonius wrote: But, I think most of that has to do with a need to be heard, or a need for conflict.
You hit the nail on the head, the reason we have so many of the same threads with the same people posting the exact same content is because they feel 'good' like they are being heard, and want to argue. The truth is while all of these topics are all over the internet, in real life, when you go to all these FLGS and events and meet real life people and play with your figures and such, none of this stuff comes up and half of the complaints simply are not even reality... Your GW sucks? Your FLGS sucks? Your can't get your models cheaply? A book I never heard of almost got taken down? None of those issues effect my reality or anyone else in real life.
Dogs barking in the night. I think going to the modeling subforum and posting pictures of my stuff is much better use of Dakka's website as a whole than people belching out the same laundry list of grievances like it matters or anyone cares.
Depends where you go, my main FLGS over the years has become increasingly critical of GW, as in, telling me to my face the gripes he has. The second FLGS I go to which has more of a gaming focus across a wider range of games, you'll definitely hear complaints from time to time. Not hour upon hour of arguments with a couple of people ardently defending GW like you see on Dakka, but definitely the same complaints and sometimes even different complaints come up and the same comparisons with other companies that we have here come up in store as well.
The difference is no one jumps up to defend GW if someone is negative and no one jumps up to attack GW if someone says something positive about them, the most you get is a disagreeing "eh" and life goes on. The internet fosters THIS attitude:
nkelsch wrote: The truth is while all of these topics are all over the internet, in real life, when you go to all these FLGS and events and meet real life people and play with your figures and such, none of this stuff comes up and half of the complaints simply are not even reality... Your GW sucks? Your FLGS sucks? Your can't get your models cheaply? A book I never heard of almost got taken down? None of those issues effect my reality or anyone else in real life.
Pretty much all of the common complaints I see online, I see being brought up in discussions at the events I go to.
People are still enjoying playing 40K, but I've never seen public perception of GW lower than it is now. On the net and in 'real life'.
nkelsch wrote: The truth is while all of these topics are all over the internet, in real life, when you go to all these FLGS and events and meet real life people and play with your figures and such, none of this stuff comes up and half of the complaints simply are not even reality... Your GW sucks? Your FLGS sucks? Your can't get your models cheaply? A book I never heard of almost got taken down? None of those issues effect my reality or anyone else in real life.
Pretty much all of the common complaints I see online, I see being brought up in discussions at the events I go to.
People are still enjoying playing 40K, but I've never seen public perception of GW lower than it is now. On the net and in 'real life'.
Exactly, like I've said before, our club has gone from exclusively 40k to maybe half the tables on average in the space of a little over a year. Some players have quit, others have added other games. What people say or don't say is irrelevant, it's what people do that counts, and if this is in any way representative, GW are in a lot of bother.
silent25 wrote: [But then again, people like to go to sites that reinforce their views, not question them usually.
there's a certain amount of truth to that. I find that both "sides" tend to overly simplify the issue. I know working out some of the prices of basic troops over the past 10 years, I saw a lot of kits stay more or less the same, while quality only goes up. That doesn't help if you have an army that skyrocketed (IG or Eldar most notably), but I was surprised at how little those core units really went up.
i think that there too many instances of both blind defense of GW, and rehashed and derivative negativity. But, I think most of that has to do with a need to be heard, or a need for conflict.
No I agree that issues should be brought up. I feel though that other companies get far less heat for sometimes just as stupid decisions. I feel the moderators are far better on this site than others and is the main reason I hang out here. Though I do feel they have Pro-PP leaning, but PP hasn't done anything on the bonehead level of what GW has done recently to test it. Curious to see how people on this board would react if PP were to enforce their MINIONS trademark. And yes it is trademarked, there is a little TM next to each faction title.
SoloFalcon wrote: Are we shareholders? No. Until we are, they are not accountable to us.
As an economist and an MBA, I can tell you this line of thinking is silly, for several reasons. The most fundamental being that the Shareholders don't pay GW's bills
Have you actually ever worked in management at a publicly traded company? Those large share holders have a direct line to the front office. They have the ability to kick a CEO out if they don't like them. You ignore them at your own peril.
No it really doesn't work like that in reality in the vast, vast majority of cases.
I'll trust the word of someone who has experienced this. Plus, if that was the case, shareholder activists like Carl Icahn should be powerless to impact companies? Right?
I've highlighted the important bit. And yes, I do work in management at publicly traded companies providing internal and external financial reporting..
And yes it is trademarked, there is a little TM next to each faction title.
™ means very little. Really it is only letting people know that this is the name of our product. ® is more significant, and requires registration and an assertion of those rights. You actually see ™ a lot...you see it implied even more often, as you dont actually have to mark your marks for them to be a mark...you only have to use it to identify a product. Looking at the PP website's copyright policy, they indicate that it isn't the word, but the logo which includes the word that they are claiming.
I dont think that anyone has a problem with selling Imperial Guard (which gives them a common law trademark) rather being so obtuse as to think they should have exclusive rights to such a common and generic term.
And yes it is trademarked, there is a little TM next to each faction title.
™ means very little. Really it is only letting people know that this is the name of our product. ® is more significant, and requires registration and an assertion of those rights. You actually see ™ a lot...you see it implied even more often, as you dont actually have to mark your marks for them to be a mark...you only have to use it to identify a product. Looking at the PP website's copyright policy, they indicate that it isn't the word, but the logo which includes the word that they are claiming.
I dont think that anyone has a problem with selling Imperial Guard (which gives them a common law trademark) rather being so obtuse as to think they should have exclusive rights to such a common and generic term.
I've highlighted the important bit. And yes, I do work in management at publicly traded companies providing internal and external financial reporting..
Noted, though how are companies prevent from being impacted from aggressive shareholders? "Shareholder rights" allow large mutual funds quite a bit of influence on publicly traded firms.
If a company puts ™ on something, that means they are saying it is "Our product"...
Careful, there are no black helicopters in my posts that would imply that I work for or with PP. I know several people who do, very well in fact - but I would not give them any more deference in terms of their company than I would any other company (used to like GW a good bit too...though they have taken their rope, tied it to their neck and ran off a cliff with it).
Sean_OBrien wrote: If a company puts ™ on something, that means they are saying it is "Our product"...
Careful, there are no black helicopters in my posts that would imply that I work for or with PP. I know several people who do, very well in fact - but I would not give them any more deference in terms of their company than I would any other company (used to like GW a good bit too...though they have taken their rope, tied it to their neck and ran off a cliff with it).
Baldsmug wrote: I hate how GW forces me to buy their stuff, its ridiculous its like i have no choice.
oh wait... that didn't happen.
If you don't like the company or what they do don't buy their stuff and if you are SOOO righteous don't even buy it second hand like i know a lot of you haters like to brag about doing. No one is forcing you to play with these toys. You people are just ridiculous. Get over yourselves. If you want to hate a corporation why not focus on hating one that REALLY deserves it, like Monsanto, Pfizer, or one of those REAL evil corporations who really DO NOT give you a choice.
Baldsmug wrote: What if they had stolen online PDFs and a really nice scratch built model that was painted really well. And they presented you with a packet that included any AI rules they might be using as well as a list that was done in excel and included all items of wargear in a well laid out manner to go along with an army that is WYSIWYG. Would that be good enough for you? cause thats how i role
Interesting
Aren't you clever. Great out of context quote about using scratchbuilt models and IA rules from a while back. or are you just trying to attack my character to prove some point? I may have gotten some not so legit PDFs but that doesn't mean i am trying to bring down GW or bear any ill will toward them. Just so ya know, i still have to buy my models, just like everyone else and prefer to get them brand new from my FLGS. And if it makes you feel better I am working on actually purchasing the codex's and IA books which are applicable for my army, but since i don't really play that often so I tend to spend more money on the models. I am not one of those " I hate GW because i read it on the internet so i am only going to buy my models second hand to keep them from getting any of my money" type of people. I am more of a I will buy any models i can get for the money i have to spend and I would really like to read the books first before i spend money that could be used to get more models type of guy. Thanks for checking out my old quotes though, and i hope you took a look at my P&M blog while you were rooting around in there.
What's out of context about my quote? You say in the quote that you stole an Imperial Armour pdf to play your scratch built model. Is this inaccurate? Is there more to the story than that summary?
I just find it funny that someone who is telling people they don't NEED to buy GW products, and that they should get over it, is stealing from GW because he doesn't want to buy it
Oh but I do want to buy the stuff. I want to buy all the stuff. I am sorry if it was miss leading but my argument in that thread was about how people didn't want to play with forge world becaue they didn't have easy access to the rules and then thye also didn't want to play with someone who scratch built a forgeworld unit because they didn't pay the money for the forge world one. I would much rather have the real deal if the unit had a model and i would much rather have the actual book because i think they are worth the money but unfortunetly I have real life obligations and bills and such so it takes a while for me to get the money together for the real deal.
I find it funny that you think you have me all figured out from a couple posts on a forum dedicated to toys. I am sure in real life you are probably an okay guy though.
And i don't think there is a single person in the world that NEEDS to buy anything from GW.
Kilkrazy wrote: I advise reading more in forums such as Painting & Modelling, which is a constant source of inspiration.
There is much truth in this. I suspect the enjoyment that you get out of Dakka Dakka is at least somewhat correlated with how much time you spent in the OT forum.
To put it differently, I knew exactly what this thread would be about, I knew exactly who would post in it, and to some extent, I knew what they would say. I know that this post will appear again in 4 to 6 weeks. And knowing all that, I chose to participate anyway. But if you're truly not enjoying the cycle - and some of the posters here are clearly expressing such a sentiment - try and remember that the other parts of Dakka offer a better tone, less invective, and more community.
Again, wow, so many replies, and a mix of both sides of the argument. I am at least happy to see that I don't stand alone in noticing the increase in critical/negative threads. I posted my blog article and thoughts here mainly because a day doesn't go by that I don't notice a negative/critical GW thread on the front page of the site. There's one there right now. Anyways, I want to take a moment and reply to comments that stuck out to me.
gorgon wrote:
Psienesis wrote: It's not just miniatures gaming that sees this kind of activity, it's everything. The Internet is, after all, a Global Hate Machine.
Mostly this. And Dakka's actually fairly friendly compared to some forums out there.
HOWEVER, in this veteran's opinion, this is the most negative Dakka's been in the Yakface era. And I'm not talking about measured, critical analysis -- some of that does exist here -- but the rise in negative and repetitive content-void posting. I'm not sure what can be done about that without some fairly harsh modding. The old 40K mailing list had a ban on all pricing discussions, for instance. Seems harsh, but then it really did remove a lot of the noise. *shrug*
I think this says a lot. I too have been in the hobby for years, and I've visited the the forums numerous times in those years. I've notice there has been an increase. While I accept and agree with many of the orignial grievances and that GW has made poor decisions, I just believe the community, or at least Dakka, has taken the issue past criticism and critical arguments to whipping GW. We as a community are beginning to tread into the "beating a dead horse" realm. Because of this surge, inablity to dial things back, and passing constructive criticism, I believe the community is doing more than GW has recently done to harm itself.
SoloFalcon1138 wrote: He has a point. This is a hobby, not a staple of life. If you don't like it, get out of it or find a new one.
Is GW making some bizarre business choices? yes, but without any further information, we are just yelling at brick walls about things we cannot change.
Of course everyone is here voluntarily, but if I was going to find a new hobby, I would rather choose to than feel I was forced to. I'm just glad that there are so many good alternatives these days, if this was 10 years ago we'd be royally fethed.
It's fairly widely accepted that GW does monitor sites like these, so it may not be a total exercise in shouting at a wall, and even if it is, talking about things that upset, annoy or anger you with others of a similar opinion or debating them with those that disagree is healthy and cathartic. Much better than having to seethe in silence or try and explain to friends or family why you're so upset about your toys.
Yeah while I agree that some of the people replying to the haters can use the odd strawman, I think the point is entirely relevant, a hobby isnt like a drug or medication, its not worth the same amount of vitriol.
At the end of the day, I have been called a "white knight" before by the more vitriolic posters, and I have never bought a finecast model, actively want GW to lose their case against chapterhouse, and think that all kinds of the gak they do is barmy. The internet simply makes absolutely everything a black and white issue, so people have to turn it into "white knight" and "hater" instead of simply being relatively unconcerned because its just a hobby, and making the odd observation.
So ive fallen foul with some of the more militant "haters" on here and argued with them, despite the fact I really am nonchalantly ambivalent to GW and spend feth all on their products. Simply because the are just the other side of the same coin, namely.. people that take their hobby far too fething seriously.
mattym, I believe your quote does a fair job in discribing my own stance. I agree with you that I hope GW loses their case with chapterhouse, and I agree that GW doesn't make perfect decisions all the time. However, it was your last sentence that struck a cord. I wrote my blog article and post here as response to bitterness I was getting from so many posts. As I stated in my first paragraph, there hasn't been a day that I haven't seen a critical/negative thread about GW right there on the front page of the site, and honestly, it was beginning to wear on me.
Barfolomew wrote:I think one should also note that at least there is discussion. It would be worse if there was no discussion because people just didn't care. No matter how good or bad something is, there will be people who actively bash it. Typically, it depends on that person's hot button issues.
Discussion is one thing. Discussion I can handle. There have been fair points raised by both sides in this thread. What I believe has been happening in the recent months is not discussion but rather a diatribe.
Leth wrote:Ehhh, if I needed GW to live I would have a problem with a lot of the things they are doing. I would then also agree that a lot of these things (like pricing) is a problem.
However I don't need it to live, it is a luxury and it is a luxury that I would stop playing in a heart beat if I stopped getting my value out of it.
Now if you want to make the comparative value argument my first question is "Well why are you not playing that one?" There are plenty of other factors that are preventing you from doing so, however since those are harder to quantify people complain about the price since it is solid. Value is more than just a dollar figure,
On the codex errors, your right I wish they would have caught some of these things. However over all the product is satisfactory for me. If you want to compare fault free items to not. They will send you a new one almost no questions asked. Do they have their problems? Sure, but I will give them respect for being the only company that I know of that has made it for 30ish years now. They, like magic, have found a way to survive through such a volatile economic period. How many times has something come along that is going to be "the warhammer replacement" yet they are no longer here, and GW still is.
Great points that I agree with. I wish they could do a better job proofing the codices, but it has not effected the my games or the game machanics in a significant way. Like you, I'm satisfied with the product. For a company that is supposed to hate their customers, I have had many personal experiences that say other wise, and I hear the same from numerous people that actually call and talk to GW's customer service.
Kilkrazy wrote:What is wrong with you as a consumer complaining about something you consume, that you find to be sub-standard?
Aren't you the OP, as a consumer of the forum user generated content, complaining about its sub-standard quality?
I advise reading more in forums such as Painting & Modelling, which is a constant source of inspiration.
I have no problems with GW. On a whole, I don't have a problem with Dakka. I completely agree with you that any other part of Dakka is fun. I am just stating my own thoughts/believes/opinions that I have about the over all increase in criticism/negative towards GW. I can tell you that Dakka is not the only place that I get almost bombard by bitterness and negativity.
Polonius wrote:
silent25 wrote: [But then again, people like to go to sites that reinforce their views, not question them usually.
there's a certain amount of truth to that. I find that both "sides" tend to overly simplify the issue. I know working out some of the prices of basic troops over the past 10 years, I saw a lot of kits stay more or less the same, while quality only goes up. That doesn't help if you have an army that skyrocketed (IG or Eldar most notably), but I was surprised at how little those core units really went up.
i think that there too many instances of both blind defense of GW, and rehashed and derivative negativity. But, I think most of that has to do with a need to be heard, or a need for conflict.
I wanted to quote you because I agree with you. I will admit that my own position and article is probably simplified, but that is largely due to that I don't have the time nor the resources to expand and solidify my arguments. The best I can hope for is articulate as best I can my own thoughts, feelings, observations, and experiences.
nkelsch wrote:
Polonius wrote: But, I think most of that has to do with a need to be heard, or a need for conflict.
You hit the nail on the head, the reason we have so many of the same threads with the same people posting the exact same content is because they feel 'good' like they are being heard, and want to argue. The truth is while all of these topics are all over the internet, in real life, when you go to all these FLGS and events and meet real life people and play with your figures and such, none of this stuff comes up and half of the complaints simply are not even reality... Your GW sucks? Your FLGS sucks? Your can't get your models cheaply? A book I never heard of almost got taken down? None of those issues effect my reality or anyone else in real life.
Dogs barking in the night. I think going to the modeling subforum and posting pictures of my stuff is much better use of Dakka's website as a whole than people belching out the same laundry list of grievances like it matters or anyone cares.
At the end of the day, this is the thought that crosses my mind and I wonder if it crosses anyone else. None of this comes up in conversation in my area. It just that when you read negative after negative it takes a toll on you.
Well it is just your own decision how to deal with this "negativity"
Some people don't care and will support GW as nothing has changed.
Some people feel that the changes to GW policy is a stab in the back of their consumers, and lash their anger out on this forum.
For every white knight there is also a GW-hater.
You just have to sift through comments or ignore these threads about GW antics.
A lot of us like GW but don't understand their business practices lately, it is like they shot their foot off, "hey you are bleeding", and they say "don't worry it is a good thing"
@Jehan-reznor
I understand your point. I've said my piece with this forum post and blog article, so I'm washing my hands of it afterwards. I will stick to the Painting + Modeling forums and look around at army lists. I too don't understand GW's business practices lately, but since I neither work for them or impact those decision in any meaningful way, I don't get very worked up over them. As a result, I find how the community reacts a bit confusing. Because at the end of the day, 40k is our hobby. A hobby that we passionately love, but ultimately, has no impact on the outside world.
Theyve been how they are forever. 13 years ago i remember people bitching about the same things that i read here today.
Funny how people have on their rosetinted glasses and seem to think they were some kind of awesome company back then. They weren't.
They designed those screw on paint pots to dry out to make you buy more (the 12ml ones, look it up if you dont know what im talking about). that was back in early-mid 2000s.
They're down there with scam artists, always have been, always will be.
It's no wonder they would rather sell to kids. kids are ignorant and uncaring. adults are less likely to tolerate GW's BS.
kb305 wrote: Theyve been how they are forever. 13 years ago i remember people bitching about the same things that i read here today.
Funny how people have on their rosetinted glasses and seem to think they were some kind of awesome company back then. They weren't.
Yes. My rose-tinted glasses stop me from seeing all the mid 90's wordwide embargos, the attempts to stop online shopping, the no-preview mentality of advertising, mid-90's FineCast, one-man stores, no game play in stores, and so on.
bkiker wrote: @Jehan-reznor
I understand your point. I've said my piece with this forum post and blog article, so I'm washing my hands of it afterwards. I will stick to the Painting + Modeling forums and look around at army lists. I too don't understand GW's business practices lately, but since I neither work for them or impact those decision in any meaningful way, I don't get very worked up over them. As a result, I find how the community reacts a bit confusing. Because at the end of the day, 40k is our hobby. A hobby that we passionately love, but ultimately, has no impact on the outside world.
Your final sentence there is a bit of a contradiction in terms - anyone who spends hours (probably going towards thousands of hours for some people here!) is going to feel an emotional investment with what they do, and therefore give a disproportionate level of importance to that thing. So, I think that's probably why you get so many emotive posts about that subject. If you read comments regarding D&D when 4th edition was released (I'm sure there are many other examples!) you would have read exactly the same.
It's just that over the past couple of years GW seems to have done so much to raise the communities ire.. lists have already been written in the thread. Even if one thing doesn't bother or effect you, another will and so what had previously been a largely positive or else neutral relationship ('I buy stuff to paint') can turn sour.
For me it was the RoW ban - I was living in a country with no GW, and that suddenly made it impossible for me to buy GW products.
But yes, there is a difference between "GW sux yeaaaah", said for no reason, and a poster having a negative reaction to Finecast, the price rises, the RoW ban, the ban on gaming in stores, or anything else you care to mention.
kb305 wrote: Theyve been how they are forever. 13 years ago i remember people bitching about the same things that i read here today.
Funny how people have on their rosetinted glasses and seem to think they were some kind of awesome company back then. They weren't.
They designed those screw on paint pots to dry out to make you buy more (the 12ml ones, look it up if you dont know what im talking about). that was back in early-mid 2000s.
They're down there with scam artists, always have been, always will be.
It's no wonder they would rather sell to kids. kids are ignorant and uncaring. adults are less likely to tolerate GW's BS.
Every company ever does this. Companies like Gillette and Wilkinson purposely make blades that rust to keep you buying.
Further to what Pacific said above, you not how we're not really bashing the miniatures either. Or even the rules (although we could, especially with the current era of random cinematic gaming). Aside from this desire to fill the game with silly flyers and cartoonish oval-based monsters the miniatures are still top notch, and the technology that goes into making them (FineCost aside) is state of the art. I may not like some of GW's latest big plastic kits, but it's hard to fault them on their details and the sculpting/casting quality. It's not 'general hate' that drives us, it's specific things that make us mad (embargos, the constant Kingsley-proof price hikes, WD in general, their completely ass-backwards method of promoting and advertising their products, etc.).
Trying to boil it all down into 'internet hate' isn't just disengenuous, it's insulting.
kb305 wrote: most of your points are moot since online shopping wasnt an issue in the 90s.
I'm fully aware of that. Doesn't make anything moot, it just means there are new ways to mess with the customers, ways that didn't exist back then, making today different. No rose-tinted glasses to 'golden years' of days when GW would give out free hugs and miniatures.
It is getting worse. Note I don't say from good to bad.
kb305 wrote: Theyve been how they are forever. 13 years ago i remember people bitching about the same things that i read here today.
Funny how people have on their rosetinted glasses and seem to think they were some kind of awesome company back then. They weren't.
They designed those screw on paint pots to dry out to make you buy more (the 12ml ones, look it up if you dont know what im talking about). that was back in early-mid 2000s.
They're down there with scam artists, always have been, always will be.
It's no wonder they would rather sell to kids. kids are ignorant and uncaring. adults are less likely to tolerate GW's BS.
Every company ever does this. Companies like Gillette and Wilkinson purposely make blades that rust to keep you buying.
oh really? gilette gave me a bunch of free samples and the razors seem to last forever.
do you know if and when GW is going to be giving out free sample of hobby supplies?
kb305 wrote: Theyve been how they are forever. 13 years ago i remember people bitching about the same things that i read here today.
Funny how people have on their rosetinted glasses and seem to think they were some kind of awesome company back then. They weren't.
They designed those screw on paint pots to dry out to make you buy more (the 12ml ones, look it up if you dont know what im talking about). that was back in early-mid 2000s.
They're down there with scam artists, always have been, always will be.
It's no wonder they would rather sell to kids. kids are ignorant and uncaring. adults are less likely to tolerate GW's BS.
Every company ever does this. Companies like Gillette and Wilkinson purposely make blades that rust to keep you buying.
oh really? gilette gave me a bunch of free samples and the razors seem to last forever.
do you know if and when GW is going to be giving out free sample of hobby supplies?
The free thing isn't what I'm talking about. An ideal consumable product, such as paint, razors or food, fills a need while needing to be replaced as often as possible. It's simply how it works.
Think about it; you could charge 1 million customers for a shaving razor that lasts forever once or charge 1 million customers a slightly lower price every month to replace it. Which would you pick?
It doesn't work quite the same way with goods such as models or electronics, but there is still a deliberate influence to drag you to the newest option deliberately.
bkiker wrote: I have a hard time leveling some of the hate and toxicity that many of the online community have. I have come to wonder if this is unique to the online community?
GW have managed to export 'hate' towards themselves from being fairly exclusive to the gaming community to the wider world with their 'Spots the Space Marine ' shenanigans
I'm actually a really easy going person. If you go above and beyond for me the customer then I shower you with praises to anyone I talk to about it. If your indifferent then I to am indifferent. If you go out of your way to antagonize me or my local store then I will bring my full arsenal to bear upon you. Our voices as consumers are our greatest weapon. It's why GW doesn't like the Internet. It gives us access to far more consumers than we would ordinarily have. So use your voices.
Consumers can be a companies greatest weapon or worst enemy. How you choose to use them is up to you. Don't cry if you abuse us and we give voice. You can't silence us no matter how you try.
bkiker wrote: @Jehan-reznor
I understand your point. I've said my piece with this forum post and blog article, so I'm washing my hands of it afterwards. I will stick to the Painting + Modeling forums and look around at army lists. I too don't understand GW's business practices lately, but since I neither work for them or impact those decision in any meaningful way, I don't get very worked up over them. As a result, I find how the community reacts a bit confusing. Because at the end of the day, 40k is our hobby. A hobby that we passionately love, but ultimately, has no impact on the outside world.
Your final sentence there is a bit of a contradiction in terms - anyone who spends hours (probably going towards thousands of hours for some people here!) is going to feel an emotional investment with what they do, and therefore give a disproportionate level of importance to that thing. So, I think that's probably why you get so many emotive posts about that subject. If you read comments regarding D&D when 4th edition was released (I'm sure there are many other examples!) you would have read exactly the same.
It's just that over the past couple of years GW seems to have done so much to raise the communities ire.. lists have already been written in the thread. Even if one thing doesn't bother or effect you, another will and so what had previously been a largely positive or else neutral relationship ('I buy stuff to paint') can turn sour.
For me it was the RoW ban - I was living in a country with no GW, and that suddenly made it impossible for me to buy GW products.
But yes, there is a difference between "GW sux yeaaaah", said for no reason, and a poster having a negative reaction to Finecast, the price rises, the RoW ban, the ban on gaming in stores, or anything else you care to mention.
I guess for me personally I keep things in perspective. 40k for me is a hobby. A hobby that I love and enjoy. However, my life is more complex than just 40k. I have a family that I love and want to spend time with. I enjoy books, movies, and video games and want to spend time with them. I have a home and job that I must spend time with. For me personally, if 40k disappeared tomorrow, I would be sad, but there are plenty of other things in the world and my life that I can choose from. As you said, there is a difference between "GW sux yeaaaaaaaah" and legitimate criticism. It just seems to me that the "GW sux yeaaaaah" response is becoming more prevalent and louder.
Dynamix wrote:
bkiker wrote: I have a hard time leveling some of the hate and toxicity that many of the online community have. I have come to wonder if this is unique to the online community?
GW have managed to export 'hate' towards themselves from being fairly exclusive to the gaming community to the wider world with their 'Spots the Space Marine ' shenanigans
I am curious if this has had as big of an impact outside of the GW community than is popularly held. While I did read the initial story on Blastr, it was only through the GW community that I got any kind of updates. If my memory serves me correctly, the issue was resolved within a few days with "Spot(s) the Space Marine" going back on the market. While I agree and voiced my disagreement at the time, the "Spot the Space Marine" issue, story died when it got resolved, and I wonder if more people did the same.
I am curious if this has had as big of an impact outside of the GW community than is popularly held. While I did read the initial story on Blastr, it was only through the GW community that I got any kind of updates. If my memory serves me correctly, the issue was resolved within a few days with "Spot(s) the Space Marine" going back on the market. While I agree and voiced my disagreement at the time, the "Spot the Space Marine" issue, story died when it got resolved, and I wonder if more people did the same.
This story made the BBC News website , and didnt the issue result in GW Facebook page being shut down in part due to the negative reactions posted on it ?
Apart from the gaming community it seems to have made an impact with some of the Sci-Fi community and book-writing / reading community at least , who may associate the name GamesWorkshop negatively when its mentioned from now on
kb305 wrote: Theyve been how they are forever. 13 years ago i remember people bitching about the same things that i read here today.
Funny how people have on their rosetinted glasses and seem to think they were some kind of awesome company back then. They weren't.
They designed those screw on paint pots to dry out to make you buy more (the 12ml ones, look it up if you dont know what im talking about). that was back in early-mid 2000s.
They're down there with scam artists, always have been, always will be.
It's no wonder they would rather sell to kids. kids are ignorant and uncaring. adults are less likely to tolerate GW's BS.
Every company ever does this. Companies like Gillette and Wilkinson purposely make blades that rust to keep you buying.
oh really? gilette gave me a bunch of free samples and the razors seem to last forever.
do you know if and when GW is going to be giving out free sample of hobby supplies?
The free thing isn't what I'm talking about. An ideal consumable product, such as paint, razors or food, fills a need while needing to be replaced as often as possible. It's simply how it works.
Think about it; you could charge 1 million customers for a shaving razor that lasts forever once or charge 1 million customers a slightly lower price every month to replace it. Which would you pick?
It doesn't work quite the same way with goods such as models or electronics, but there is still a deliberate influence to drag you to the newest option deliberately.
not really, people expect paint to not dry out in the container or atleast last many years before it does.
Those pots forced you to constantly hydrate your paint. All it did was piss people off and push them to other brands like vallejo.
By your logic GW would be justified in adding some chemical to the models themselves to make them biodegrade? You would be fine with that also?
I personally hate the constant push to update things, it's why i'll probably do away with my cellphone once my contract is over. I dont think it's right, i think theyre money grubbing scammers and they wont be getting anymore of my money.
Andilus Greatsword wrote: The surge is likely because of the change in codex policy for GW this edition (more codices = more people to whine about changes), as well as a couple lackluster expansions (Crusade of Fire and Death From the Skies were very lacking in content). Outside of the game, GW has made some incredibly poor decisions lately (Spots the Space Marine lawsuit fiasco, screwing over online retailers, etc), and then there's the astronomical prices of some of their kits and books to top everything else off.
On top of all of that, the community on DakkaDakka just plain complains about damn near everything, but now they actually have far more excuses to do so.
I like the current flow of codices and expansions.
But then, as you said, GW seems to think they own every word written in their books, and the fact that they are constantly raising the startup costs.
bkiker wrote: I guess for me personally I keep things in perspective. 40k for me is a hobby. A hobby that I love and enjoy. However, my life is more complex than just 40k. I have a family that I love and want to spend time with. I enjoy books, movies, and video games and want to spend time with them. I have a home and job that I must spend time with. For me personally, if 40k disappeared tomorrow, I would be sad, but there are plenty of other things in the world and my life that I can choose from.
What makes you think anyone else arguing about GW is any different to you? You are here, talking about people talking about "bashing" GW, it's no different to what anyone else is doing. If I make a post discussing a negative point about GW, I don't go any cry in my corner for the next half an hour, I just go on with life. The GW hobby is part of my life because of the time I invest in it, but it's hardly an important part compared to my family, my job, my cat, etc and I'm pretty sure everyone arguing one way or the other is the same.
As you said, there is a difference between "GW sux yeaaaaaaaah" and legitimate criticism. It just seems to me that the "GW sux yeaaaaah" response is becoming more prevalent and louder.
I disagree, the random "GW bashing" has increased no more than "legitimate discussions about negative aspects of GW".
I am curious if this has had as big of an impact outside of the GW community than is popularly held. While I did read the initial story on Blastr, it was only through the GW community that I got any kind of updates. If my memory serves me correctly, the issue was resolved within a few days with "Spot(s) the Space Marine" going back on the market. While I agree and voiced my disagreement at the time, the "Spot the Space Marine" issue, story died when it got resolved, and I wonder if more people did the same.
This story made the BBC News website , and didnt the issue result in GW Facebook page being shut down in part due to the negative reactions posted on it ?
Apart from the gaming community it seems to have made an impact with some of the Sci-Fi community and book-writing / reading community at least , who may associate the name GamesWorkshop negatively when its mentioned from now on
I did not realize that it had made the BBC News website. As for the reasoning GW took down their Facebook page, I think we can only speculate. Maybe it was a contributing factor, but then again maybe it wasn't. As for being an issue outside the gaming community, I don't doubt it has made some sort of impact. I'm just curious if it's a banner or billboard size issue that the gaming community continues to make it out to be.
AllSeeingSkink wrote:
bkiker wrote: I guess for me personally I keep things in perspective. 40k for me is a hobby. A hobby that I love and enjoy. However, my life is more complex than just 40k. I have a family that I love and want to spend time with. I enjoy books, movies, and video games and want to spend time with them. I have a home and job that I must spend time with. For me personally, if 40k disappeared tomorrow, I would be sad, but there are plenty of other things in the world and my life that I can choose from.
What makes you think anyone else arguing about GW is any different to you? You are here, talking about people talking about "bashing" GW, it's no different to what anyone else is doing. If I make a post discussing a negative point about GW, I don't go any cry in my corner for the next half an hour, I just go on with life. The GW hobby is part of my life because of the time I invest in it, but it's hardly an important part compared to my family, my job, my cat, etc and I'm pretty sure everyone arguing one way or the other is the same.
As you said, there is a difference between "GW sux yeaaaaaaaah" and legitimate criticism. It just seems to me that the "GW sux yeaaaaah" response is becoming more prevalent and louder.
I disagree, the random "GW bashing" has increased no more than "legitimate discussions about negative aspects of GW".
I'm sorry that my statement that I made about myself somehow offended you. I was not implying that I think people think differently or that I am better. I was just making a personal statement about how I personally think and process issues that come up. As for "GW bashing" veruses "legitimate discussions", I believe there has been a change. Far too often is it easier to find anything that brings up GW a tsunami of overly harsh and bitter comments. Even the Beasts of War article that I linked points out that "GW has the ability to polarise opinion like no other manufacturer in the hobby." What "legitimate discussions" are out there generally devolve into shouting matches and a general sense of hostility. I'll use your comment as an example. While I'm fine if you disagree with me and your point about "GW bashing increasing no more than "legitimate discussions" may be valid. You open, however, in a rather hostile manner causing me to infer, "How DARE YOU think you're different or better!" Basically, attacking a statement that I made about my own way of thinking. No where in that statement did I say "I must be the only one that has a complex life" or "No one keeps 40k balanced with their family life, real life, etc." I tried to use as many personal pronouns and adverbs as I could in order to make it clear that I was talking about myself. "I guess for mepersonallyI...". This causes me to shut down and not even hear if you have a valid argument or not.
As for the reasoning GW took down their Facebook page, I think we can only speculate. Maybe it was a contributing factor, but then again maybe it wasn't.
GW took down their Facebook page less than 24 hours that they posted a dumb justification as to why they felt they should try to claim "Space Marines" as their sole property in the whole world.
Same reason they disable comments on all their youtube videos. GW runs away when faced with criticism, so much in fact, that they would sooner prefer to lose customers and money then be accountable for their actions.
GW should not be creating barriers to use their products, instead of uniting people they are alienating and isolating people.
I am a long time GW supporter, some even call me "fanboy" and I dont understand all the hate towards them. There are things that could be better, things they messed up but after all I dont feel like all the gak throwing is indicated. Most of the so called critique I have read is just no critique but stupid comments. There are some people who have written good thought out points but with all those pointless comments flooding those threads in no time I barely read them anymore.
bkiker wrote: I'm sorry that my statement that I made about myself somehow offended you.
What makes you think I was offended? You noted how you personally "keep things in perspective", and I asked the question "What makes you think the people arguing are any different?". Perhaps I was a bit too confrontational, but really, if you read that I was offended or that my questions was aggressive toward you, that is YOU inferring that, not me implying it.
The fact you made the "personal statement", to me, inferred that you think the people you refer to somehow don't keep things in perspective in much the same way, which IMO is false (if you were trying to imply something different, my apologies, however the way I read it you were either making the statement for no apparent reason or for the reason that you think the statement needs to be made).
What "legitimate discussions" are out there generally devolve into shouting matches and a general sense of hostility. I'll use your comment as an example. While I'm fine if you disagree with me and your point about "GW bashing increasing no more than "legitimate discussions" may be valid. You open, however, in a rather hostile manner causing me to infer, "How DARE YOU think you're different or better!" Basically, attacking a statement that I made about my own way of thinking. No where in that statement did I say "I must be the only one that has a complex life" or "No one keeps 40k balanced with their family life, real life, etc." I tried to use as many personal pronouns and adverbs as I could in order to make it clear that I was talking about myself. "I guess for mepersonallyI...". This causes me to shut down and not even hear if you have a valid argument or not.
This is the internet, you shouldn't be trying to infer tone unless it is blatantly obvious that a tone is implied. When I wrote what I wrote, there was no sense of "How DARE YOU" at all. If I were to apply a tone to my question, it would be a slightly raised tone (not volume) with an inflection, as if someone had made a comment at which I didn't understand why they made the comment (you) and I gently query why they think anyone else is different.
Now, maybe I incorrectly inferred the reasoning behind your own post, when I read it. Lets follow my logic train which lead me to my reply. I read your thing and thought "he is stating his personal feeling" to which my conclusion is "he is stating his personal feeling because he feels it needs to be stated (else he is crazy and stating it for no reason )". Now maybe my logical leap to thinking that your reasoning for making your personal statement implied that you thought other people didn't keep things in perspective was incorrect, I admit that, but none the less my conclusion did not come from inferring any tone from your post and I don't think you should attempt to infer tone from my post.
Now, if you think what I posted is hostile or attacking of your statement (note, I attacked the inferred premise, not the statement), I can understand why you think there's a lot of GW "bashing". I think you're wrong, and I think you're mistaking "discussion" for "attacking/hostility/bashing/etc". Not to say there isn't some hostility in many comments and sometimes it is blatantly obvious, but again, this is the internet, trying to infer tone is not worth doing and among some hostility, there's plenty of legitimate discussion. If you have a problem with the hostility itself, well IMO that has not increased disproportionately to the actual legitimate discussion.
The point of my post, if you had read the words for what they were instead of inferring a tone, was that you are doing the exact same thing as people who "bash" GW, you are here, on a forum, talking about your hobby (and in this case talking about how other people perceive that hobby).
That is not leaps and bounds different to what other people are doing when arguing over GW's various perceived faults, or do you disagree? If you disagree, is it purely from the perceived tone that you are reading when you read peoples' posts?
As for the reasoning GW took down their Facebook page, I think we can only speculate. Maybe it was a contributing factor, but then again maybe it wasn't.
GW took down their Facebook page less than 24 hours that they posted a dumb justification as to why they felt they should try to claim "Space Marines" as their sole property in the whole world.
Coincidences happen - that was not one.
This.
GW took their ball home and ran off. You see other companies when faced with PR disasters actually try to address the issue and talk to the press. GW don't. The Pope talks to the press. Not GW. Let that one sink in.
Crimson wrote: I certainly don't think that GW is perfect, far from it. It just seems to me that people's reactions are totally out of proportion, and totally disconnected from the reality of how big companies generally behave. Most things many here see as a horrible outrage are mildly annoying at most to me.
^ This.
I have grown very weary of the constant complaining as if GW is as evil as the likes of the Umbrella Corporation. They are not perfect and they've made some mistakes, not unlike nearly every company in every type of industry.
They designed those screw on paint pots to dry out to make you buy more (the 12ml ones, look it up if you dont know what im talking about). that was back in early-mid 2000s.
Then why do I have 2 dozen of these pots still that are perfectly fine and not dried out, even when sitting for years with no use? Just sounds like angry people and their conspiracy theories.
They designed those screw on paint pots to dry out to make you buy more (the 12ml ones, look it up if you dont know what im talking about). that was back in early-mid 2000s.
Then why do I have 2 dozen of these pots still that are perfectly fine and not dried out, even when sitting for years with no use? Just sounds like angry people and their conspiracy theories.
Agreed, I still have several of these pots from when I was a kid that are still usable and I still use one or two for mixing pots etc, I actually preferred them to the black plastic lidded ones, although the new ones are good quality.
They designed those screw on paint pots to dry out to make you buy more (the 12ml ones, look it up if you dont know what im talking about). that was back in early-mid 2000s.
Then why do I have 2 dozen of these pots still that are perfectly fine and not dried out, even when sitting for years with no use? Just sounds like angry people and their conspiracy theories.
I've been collecting since before the screw tops. About 90% of the paints I had before the screw tops still work fine. I'd say less than 50% of my screw top and later ones have survived. This is not a conspiracy theory, it's straight fact the paint pots introduced way back then and all pots since are vastly inferior for keeping your paint from drying or changing consistency.
Crimson wrote: I certainly don't think that GW is perfect, far from it. It just seems to me that people's reactions are totally out of proportion, and totally disconnected from the reality of how big companies generally behave. Most things many here see as a horrible outrage are mildly annoying at most to me.
^ This.
I have grown very weary of the constant complaining as if GW is as evil as the likes of the Umbrella Corporation. They are not perfect and they've made some mistakes, not unlike nearly every company in every type of industry.
But unlike every other company in every other industry as you so eloquently put it, GW, in their own eyes are infallible. As already stated, they disable Youtube comments, wall themselves up against the media and delete their Facebook page when they cannot handle the fact that they're wrong and need to make a grovelling apology to their customer base whom they treat like a big steaming pile of dog gak on the bottom of their shiny shoes.
Other than the aforementioned TSR (probably in this thread, they're all blending into one). I have not seen a company (in any industry) at war with its customer base like GW is. The long term players are a very dangerous group to piss off, GW is dying a death of a thousand cuts. It is a analog clock in the digital age. GW is eventually going to die with a whimper and not a bang, and all the while the White Knights will defend the keep and honour of sweet lady GW's corpse.
GW should look to themselves to see what is happening to them. This fantastic article shows just how apt that analogy is. GW IS the IOM, and they're going to end up the same way eventually.
Ravenous D wrote:Same reason they disable comments on all their youtube videos. GW runs away when faced with criticism, so much in fact, that they would sooner prefer to lose customers and money then be accountable for their actions.
GW should not be creating barriers to use their products, instead of uniting people they are alienating and isolating people.
I've watched a lot of the GW videos and I'm wondering what is there to comment on them. To me, their videos are basically commercials. Why do I want to write a comment on a commercial?
AllSeeingSkink wrote:
bkiker wrote: I'm sorry that my statement that I made about myself somehow offended you.
What makes you think I was offended? You noted how you personally "keep things in perspective", and I asked the question "What makes you think the people arguing are any different?". Perhaps I was a bit too confrontational, but really, if you read that I was offended or that my questions was aggressive toward you, that is YOU inferring that, not me implying it.
The fact you made the "personal statement", to me, inferred that you think the people you refer to somehow don't keep things in perspective in much the same way, which IMO is false (if you were trying to imply something different, my apologies, however the way I read it you were either making the statement for no apparent reason or for the reason that you think the statement needs to be made).
What "legitimate discussions" are out there generally devolve into shouting matches and a general sense of hostility. I'll use your comment as an example. While I'm fine if you disagree with me and your point about "GW bashing increasing no more than "legitimate discussions" may be valid. You open, however, in a rather hostile manner causing me to infer, "How DARE YOU think you're different or better!" Basically, attacking a statement that I made about my own way of thinking. No where in that statement did I say "I must be the only one that has a complex life" or "No one keeps 40k balanced with their family life, real life, etc." I tried to use as many personal pronouns and adverbs as I could in order to make it clear that I was talking about myself. "I guess for mepersonallyI...". This causes me to shut down and not even hear if you have a valid argument or not.
This is the internet, you shouldn't be trying to infer tone unless it is blatantly obvious that a tone is implied. When I wrote what I wrote, there was no sense of "How DARE YOU" at all. If I were to apply a tone to my question, it would be a slightly raised tone (not volume) with an inflection, as if someone had made a comment at which I didn't understand why they made the comment (you) and I gently query why they think anyone else is different.
Now, maybe I incorrectly inferred the reasoning behind your own post, when I read it. Lets follow my logic train which lead me to my reply. I read your thing and thought "he is stating his personal feeling" to which my conclusion is "he is stating his personal feeling because he feels it needs to be stated (else he is crazy and stating it for no reason )". Now maybe my logical leap to thinking that your reasoning for making your personal statement implied that you thought other people didn't keep things in perspective was incorrect, I admit that, but none the less my conclusion did not come from inferring any tone from your post and I don't think you should attempt to infer tone from my post.
Now, if you think what I posted is hostile or attacking of your statement (note, I attacked the inferred premise, not the statement), I can understand why you think there's a lot of GW "bashing". I think you're wrong, and I think you're mistaking "discussion" for "attacking/hostility/bashing/etc". Not to say there isn't some hostility in many comments and sometimes it is blatantly obvious, but again, this is the internet, trying to infer tone is not worth doing and among some hostility, there's plenty of legitimate discussion. If you have a problem with the hostility itself, well IMO that has not increased disproportionately to the actual legitimate discussion.
The point of my post, if you had read the words for what they were instead of inferring a tone, was that you are doing the exact same thing as people who "bash" GW, you are here, on a forum, talking about your hobby (and in this case talking about how other people perceive that hobby).
That is not leaps and bounds different to what other people are doing when arguing over GW's various perceived faults, or do you disagree? If you disagree, is it purely from the perceived tone that you are reading when you read peoples' posts?
This was a nice response, and thought provoking. You're probably right that I inferred the wrong message (the great draw back of non-verbal communication). Presented as is, your comment causes me to take a moment and think. It may not change my mind on my original post or argument about the community, but it does give me food for thought.
Crimson wrote: I certainly don't think that GW is perfect, far from it. It just seems to me that people's reactions are totally out of proportion, and totally disconnected from the reality of how big companies generally behave. Most things many here see as a horrible outrage are mildly annoying at most to me.
^ This.
I have grown very weary of the constant complaining as if GW is as evil as the likes of the Umbrella Corporation. They are not perfect and they've made some mistakes, not unlike nearly every company in every type of industry.
They're not evil, they're just stupid.
If they operated as they do in a more competitive sector (or continue to do so as this sector gets more competitive) then they'd vanish without trace in short order.
As a corporation, they've lucked out with an extremely popular product, and then ineptly fumbled about, quite spectacularly failing to exploit that product in the right way, while simultaneously managing to alienate what must have qualified as one of the most enthusiastic customer bases short of Apple.
As for me, I don't hate them, why would I waste the energy? I do find their actions towards the game and background I am incredibly fond of deeply, deeply frustrating sometimes.
They designed those screw on paint pots to dry out to make you buy more (the 12ml ones, look it up if you dont know what im talking about). that was back in early-mid 2000s.
Then why do I have 2 dozen of these pots still that are perfectly fine and not dried out, even when sitting for years with no use? Just sounds like angry people and their conspiracy theories.
Agreed, I still have several of these pots from when I was a kid that are still usable and I still use one or two for mixing pots etc, I actually preferred them to the black plastic lidded ones, although the new ones are good quality.
The black plastic lidded one was the one that dried out. get any amount of paint on the lip and it never really closed properly letting the paint dry. keep it clean it was ok but even then the hard plastic never really makes a good seal. (no o rings no gasket, nothing)
Edit: woh i think i read that wrong from the other quote. sorry bout that but yeah i hate these black plastic screw tops.
They designed those screw on paint pots to dry out to make you buy more (the 12ml ones, look it up if you dont know what im talking about). that was back in early-mid 2000s.
Then why do I have 2 dozen of these pots still that are perfectly fine and not dried out, even when sitting for years with no use? Just sounds like angry people and their conspiracy theories.
Agreed, I still have several of these pots from when I was a kid that are still usable and I still use one or two for mixing pots etc, I actually preferred them to the black plastic lidded ones, although the new ones are good quality.
The black plastic lidded one was the one that dried out. get any amount of paint on the lip and it never really closed properly letting the paint dry. keep it clean it was ok but even then the hard plastic never really makes a good seal. (no o rings no gasket, nothing)
Edit: woh i think i read that wrong from the other quote. sorry bout that but yeah i hate these black plastic screw tops.
Is this seriously the issue here? Sorry, but DUH. This goes for any type of container, not just old GW pots!
nectarprime wrote:
Then why do I have 2 dozen of these pots still that are perfectly fine and not dried out, even when sitting for years with no use? Just sounds like angry people and their conspiracy theories.
Rysaer wrote:
Agreed, I still have several of these pots from when I was a kid that are still usable and I still use one or two for mixing pots etc, I actually preferred them to the black plastic lidded ones, although the new ones are good quality.
This is the most unbelievable thing I have ever seen posted on the internet ever.
nectarprime wrote: Is this seriously the issue here? Sorry, but DUH. This goes for any type of container, not just old GW pots!
The really old pop tops weren't nearly as susceptible to getting paint around the rim, and if they did, they were far more tolerant of bit of paint in the rim before the paint itself actually started to dry out.
That said, I've had screw tops dry out on me even when I've been careful to keep them completely clean. The newer pop tops are better than the screw tops IMO, but still no where near as good as the old pop tops that preceded the screw tops.
nectarprime wrote:
Then why do I have 2 dozen of these pots still that are perfectly fine and not dried out, even when sitting for years with no use? Just sounds like angry people and their conspiracy theories.
Rysaer wrote:
Agreed, I still have several of these pots from when I was a kid that are still usable and I still use one or two for mixing pots etc, I actually preferred them to the black plastic lidded ones, although the new ones are good quality.
This is the most unbelievable thing I have ever seen posted on the internet ever.
nectarprime wrote:
Then why do I have 2 dozen of these pots still that are perfectly fine and not dried out, even when sitting for years with no use? Just sounds like angry people and their conspiracy theories.
Rysaer wrote:
Agreed, I still have several of these pots from when I was a kid that are still usable and I still use one or two for mixing pots etc, I actually preferred them to the black plastic lidded ones, although the new ones are good quality.
This is the most unbelievable thing I have ever seen posted on the internet ever.
Yeah we're lying
Honestly this is the first time I've ever heard someone actually liking the screw tops (aside from when they were first released and a couple of GW staffers were jumping up and down about how they are so much easier to open). So you can imagine my surprise I've never heard any comments beyond they are a pain to open when you get even the slightest paint in the lid and they dry out far too easily, certainly nothing positive.
The newer pop tops I hear more good about them as far as not getting stuck closed as easily, but they still dry out way too easily.
Dynamix wrote: GW have managed to export 'hate' towards themselves from being fairly exclusive to the gaming community to the wider world with their 'Spots the Space Marine ' shenanigans
Pretty soon though they're going to put an embargo on exporting hate, so we'll only be able to hate locally, and never online.
nectarprime wrote: Then why do I have 2 dozen of these pots still that are perfectly fine and not dried out, even when sitting for years with no use? Just sounds like angry people and their conspiracy theories.
Rysaer wrote: Agreed, I still have several of these pots from when I was a kid that are still usable and I still use one or two for mixing pots etc, I actually preferred them to the black plastic lidded ones, although the new ones are good quality.
This is the most unbelievable thing I have ever seen posted on the internet ever.
Yeah we're lying
Honestly this is the first time I've ever heard someone actually liking the screw tops (aside from when they were first released and a couple of GW staffers were jumping up and down about how they are so much easier to open). So you can imagine my surprise I've never heard any comments beyond they are a pain to open when you get even the slightest paint in the lid and they dry out far too easily, certainly nothing positive.
I've still got some that, over the years, have gone through about 5 moves. They've been sitting in a carboard box that has gone from a freezing cold climate to a climate that shifted between freezing cold and unbearably hot. That cardboard box has spent its time sitting in various garages and cupboards. The screw top paints are still perfectly fine - in fact, I've still got flesh wash from that era, and chestnut ink and ork flesh wash/green ink from the later pots that were the screw top design but with the pop top lid, that haven't dehydrated at all. They're still completely full.
For the record - i had a new pot of brown wash from GW (whatever the name is now) and it managed to open itself in my icecream container paint pot holder, whilst all my PP and reaper paints stayed shut (reaper may have been twist tops ) and i'd had the GW pot 2 weeks, i've had the PP and reaper ones over a year and a half. It may have been bad luck but it's a good a reason as any to move to army painter for my washes/inks.
Bullockist wrote: For the record - i had a new pot of brown wash from GW (whatever the name is now) and it managed to open itself in my icecream container paint pot holder, whilst all my PP and reaper paints stayed shut (reaper may have been twist tops ) and i'd had the GW pot 2 weeks, i've had the PP and reaper ones over a year and a half. It may have been bad luck but it's a good a reason as any to move to army painter for my washes/inks.
I haven't had it happen to me, but I've heard a lot of stories of washes leaking while in someone's paint box and getting all over everything. One of my friends who quit the hobby gave me all his old paints and the bottles were all brown because an ink leaked, according to him it was one he hadn't even opened yet.
Yeah, I had a pot of red ink in the screwtops that leaked all over the place without being opened. And I went through 3 pots of Tin Bitz before I ever actually got to use it... That stuff dried out ridiculously quickly in the screwtops.
My old Coat D'arms paints, by comparison, are still good after 19 years... and half of them have cracked lids, and still haven't dried out
Bullockist wrote: It's amazing that we can have a rational discussion on merits of things , without someone jumping in and telling us we are all wrong! WHAT'S GOING ON?
White knight in 5
4
3
2
1
You're all wrong!
Can we go back to the rational discussion now that is out of the way?
Ahhh, these threads remind me of the D&D 4e days... back before WotC confirmed all the opinions of the Naysayers and announced 5th Edition....
'3.5 sucks! WotC was right to get rid of it!'
'Pathfinder sucks! It can't hope to compete with 4e!'
'ICV2 is wrong! Pathfinder isn't outselling 4e! It can't!'
'What do you mean that 5e has just been announced, and that you wil be able to use 3.5 stuff with it?! Waaaahhhhh!!!!! '
The major difference is that WotC realized that they had made a mistake, and started making corrections....
TheAuldGrump wrote:For the record - yes, the black capped 'bolter shell' bottles had a problem with sealing.
I do not think that it was malice, or even planned obsolescence - I think that those bottles were chosen for the simple reason that they looked cool.
GW likely never did a test for how well they did at keeping paint fresh.
I used them to make jet engines on a homemade Thunderhawk....
The Auld Grump, they did look cool... they just sucked as bottles.
Some of my friends always thought they did it on purpose, I just assumed they were idiots and didn't realise after you use the pot a few times it's buggered and they don't seal very well.
However, after some 10 years of going from one crappy pot to another crappy pot, I can't help but feel GW don't WANT to use good pots.
-Loki- wrote:I've still got some that, over the years, have gone through about 5 moves. They've been sitting in a carboard box that has gone from a freezing cold climate to a climate that shifted between freezing cold and unbearably hot. That cardboard box has spent its time sitting in various garages and cupboards. The screw top paints are still perfectly fine - in fact, I've still got flesh wash from that era, and chestnut ink and ork flesh wash/green ink from the later pots that were the screw top design but with the pop top lid, that haven't dehydrated at all. They're still completely full.
Yes, I have some of those pots that are still working too. I also have a pile of them that are dried up (or had, thrown them out now ). The size of the "dried out" pile is significantly larger than the "dried out" pile of the previous ones and there's almost none that I used regularly that survived, it's mostly the pots that I never opened or opened once and luckily managed to seal again that have survived (I also have a few that I used once and DIDN'T seal again and are now dried up, yay for paying $3.50 for a few brush strokes worth of paint ).
But what I said was I've never heard someone who actually LIKED those pots. Can you honestly say you thought they were good quality pots? Just because a few of them survived doesn't make them a good pot.
insaniak wrote:My old Coat D'arms paints, by comparison, are still good after 19 years... and half of them have cracked lids, and still haven't dried out
Yes, pretty much all my paints from that era are still good, only a couple have gone bad, a bleached bone I had used for many many years the lid finally just broke in half, and an orange which I accidentally didn't press down fully dried out, other than that, they're all good (well, I also had a metallic that irreversibly separated, but I don't think I can overly blame the pot on that one).
Honestly this is the first time I've ever heard someone actually liking the screw tops (aside from when they were first released and a couple of GW staffers were jumping up and down about how they are so much easier to open). So you can imagine my surprise I've never heard any comments beyond they are a pain to open when you get even the slightest paint in the lid and they dry out far too easily, certainly nothing positive.
For the record I still have 60% of my paints I purchased from 2003. All were screw typed. And they are still good. The problem is that most people never truly learned on how to take care of this type of investment. How to simply clean up and take care of your paint supplies (include all of your modeling supplies as well) properly is just as important is purchasing models Something I taught a few GW employees to do over the years
The major difference is that WotC realized that they had made a mistake, and started making corrections....
The Auld Grump
Meet Monte 24 years ago dealing with Hero Games (Actually Iron Crown when he was the editor for the Champions Rpg) . When he left the design group for 5th ED that got my warning bells going. Probably be an okay system but still...
AllSeeingSkink wrote: But what I said was I've never heard someone who actually LIKED those pots. Can you honestly say you thought they were good quality pots? Just because a few of them survived doesn't make them a good pot.
I like them the most out of GW's post hexagon pots. Especially more than the recent crop of pots that won't actually hold open, and basically droop closed while you're still shifting paint to the palette. I never had issues with the pop top lids of the screw top design, and rarely had a screw top dry shut.
I am curious if the dropper bottles are more expensive or something. Since it seems every key is going with droppers with the exception of p3 and GW. From what I hear he p3 bottles are also great but I personally prefer droppers. If GW ever switches to them ill defiantly by there paints. Tell them I'm sticking with Vallejo.
wowsmash wrote: I am curious if the dropper bottles are more expensive or something. Since it seems every key is going with droppers with the exception of p3 and GW. From what I hear he p3 bottles are also great but I personally prefer droppers. If GW ever switches to them ill defiantly by there paints. Tell them I'm sticking with Vallejo.
The bottles themselves? No.
But when I'm shilled for over 4 bucks a color. (3.70 before tax 4 and some change after.) The dropper botles have more paint to them.
When I picked up my first Vallejo, I thought that they were messing with me on the price. 2.50, to 3.00. compared to the pots? yeah, 17 ML Vallejo tp 12 in the GW pots, now.
New pots are smaller and cost more.
bkiker wrote: I've watched a lot of the GW videos and I'm wondering what is there to comment on them. To me, their videos are basically commercials. Why do I want to write a comment on a commercial?
Do you understand that the internet supports bidirectional communications even if specific companies only use half the capacity?
Do you understand that just because you don't want to participate in the comments in a video, many, many other people find value in them and enjoy the interaction, and questions and discussion?
I'll be frank. I think you're being intentionally obtuse with this whole thread. There was a thread started the other day where a retailer went to a convention for games manufacturers and he discussed what he perceived as a poor show from GWS, and he contracted that with the presentation that other retailers in a similar space provided. In passing, he mentioned a technical problem with a computer. Your analysis of this harped on the technical problem as if that was the majority of his post, glossed over the contrast with other similarly situated retailers, and then launched into all these (frankly, laughable) analogies about how you paid for a truck and the engine failed, so finecast is actually awesome.
Every post you have made in this thread has the tone of someone who doesn't hear what the other people are really saying, and wants to go right on not hearing it. And, you know, that's OK. If you want to host a white knight hoedown, that's your business and you'll find no shortage of partners wanting to line up on both sides of the aisle. I know the game, I play it, it's OK.
But these pretensions of pretending you truly wish you could understand why - just stop.
They designed those screw on paint pots to dry out to make you buy more (the 12ml ones, look it up if you dont know what im talking about). that was back in early-mid 2000s.
Then why do I have 2 dozen of these pots still that are perfectly fine and not dried out, even when sitting for years with no use? Just sounds like angry people and their conspiracy theories.
i guess you must have the 12 mlGW pots from magical fairy pony land. It's well known that those pots were atrocious. Just sounds like GW white knight fan boys and their damage control.
kb305 wrote: They designed those screw on paint pots to dry out to make you buy more (the 12ml ones, look it up if you dont know what im talking about). that was back in early-mid 2000s.
This seems unlikely. If you have a bunch of paint, and it dries out super fast, are you going to think
"oh, this paint dried out, I better buy more"
or
"man, this paint dried out already? It sucks; I should buy more paint from any of the dozen other paint manufacturers".
I presume Games Workshop makes the best paint they are capable of making, and their bottle refinements have been in pursuit of that. If they controlled 100% of the paint market, or nearly that, perhaps we could entertain this theory.
They designed those screw on paint pots to dry out to make you buy more (the 12ml ones, look it up if you dont know what im talking about). that was back in early-mid 2000s.
Then why do I have 2 dozen of these pots still that are perfectly fine and not dried out, even when sitting for years with no use? Just sounds like angry people and their conspiracy theories.
i guess you must have the 12 mlGW pots from magical fairy pony land. It's well known that those pots were atrocious. Just sounds like GW white knight fan boys and their damage control.
C'mon now, some people who aren't white knights have posted that their screw-on-lid pots haven't dried out. I know all mine did, but I never cleaned them. That could've possibly been intentional on GW's part, that is, they assumed there'd be people who would forget or not think to clean the edges so that the lids would stay on tight, but that doesn't seem likely.
bkiker wrote: I've watched a lot of the GW videos and I'm wondering what is there to comment on them. To me, their videos are basically commercials. Why do I want to write a comment on a commercial?
Do you understand that the internet supports bidirectional communications even if specific companies only use half the capacity?
Do you understand that just because you don't want to participate in the comments in a video, many, many other people find value in them and enjoy the interaction, and questions and discussion?
I'll be frank. I think you're being intentionally obtuse with this whole thread. There was a thread started the other day where a retailer went to a convention for games manufacturers and he discussed what he perceived as a poor show from GWS, and he contracted that with the presentation that other retailers in a similar space provided. In passing, he mentioned a technical problem with a computer. Your analysis of this harped on the technical problem as if that was the majority of his post, glossed over the contrast with other similarly situated retailers, and then launched into all these (frankly, laughable) analogies about how you paid for a truck and the engine failed, so finecast is actually awesome.
Every post you have made in this thread has the tone of someone who doesn't hear what the other people are really saying, and wants to go right on not hearing it. And, you know, that's OK. If you want to host a white knight hoedown, that's your business and you'll find no shortage of partners wanting to line up on both sides of the aisle. I know the game, I play it, it's OK.
But these pretensions of pretending you truly wish you could understand why - just stop.
+1
Point being, just because you are not participating in the conversation doesn't mean anything.
GW is gakking up even more so these days, and just because you ignore it doesn't mean it isn't happening.
I'll just leave this here... suffice to say, the amount of bashing is proportionate to the amount of ill-will towards the community, especially the ramped up efforts in the last 6 months.
The Decade of Dickishness
Note: The following does not include the regular price increments, frankly there are too many to list. I'm sure there are many more addages to this, but these are the standout cliff notes.
2003 -
Online Sales in North America blocked, restricted only to GW Online Sales via their webstore. Distribution of goods outside US prohibited.
2009 -
Games Workshop send correspondence to eBay, requesting restrictions be imposed on the resale of any GW produced merchandise. eBay effectively flip them off.
2011 -
UK Embargo, blocking sales of GW product to anywhere outside of the UK.
Finecast (Failcast) is introduced as a cost cutting measure to the company, albeit at a much higher price to the consumer. Due to the high amount of defects in Finecast product casting some major retailers temporarily stop stocking it (Wayland Games in particular).
Further to the price hike on resin models an additional price rise is brought in shortly after in line with their 6 month/yearly "inflation" costs.
2012-
GW stores introduce single staffer model. Stores now close during lunchtimes. Provision of paints/materials that were previously a hobby starter "value add" are now revoked.
Mark Wells departs as CEO under speculative circumstances, his position being absorbed into the existing Director role (Tom "BIG CASH!" Kirby).
2013 -
Space Marine trademark. An Independent author a book removed from Amazon due to a claim by GW that they own the term "Space Marine". Games Workshop cops a bashing and it is cited that there are no grounds for such a long standing term to be considered "owned".
Social Media withdrawal. Games Workshop in the wake of the trademark backlash remove their HQ England and North American Facebook pages in a bid to silence the anger from fans and authors alike. GW cite that pushing customers to "local" pages is their reasoning for this - really this is a means to decentralising the backlash so customers have no central point of information on the subject. Comments are (and have been) disabled on YouTube to cripple any further negative response from being seen publicly.
Direct only rulebook announced which annoys many retailers. Not being able to sell the rulebook to the miniatures they stock is the reasoning behind this.
New trade guidelines for distributors and retailers. Canada now unable to partake in online sales at a retail level. Stores close as a result. Direct only ordering limits (reduced to 10% in some cases) imposed on distributors and retailers, reducing profit and forcing sales towards GW Online. Distribution and retail of goods outside North America & Canada now prohibited.
Bitz sales are also prohibited at risk of the affiliated account being cut off from supply.
Digital book price rise. Books on iTunes are raised to that of hardback prices.
GAMA and other Retailer events. GW basically flip everyone the bird, bringing in a single blank demo table. Their "paint workshop" was nothing more than a "Here's a space marine and five paints - have at it"... and a single rep repeating the same line in response to angered retailers "There's nothing I can do, but i'll pass on your concerns". No comments, no feedback, just stone walling.
Stock delayed to retailers, whilst plenty is available online via GW Direct. This is seen as a means to boost online sales through GW direct web/mail order channels, whilst reducing profit loss normally occurring by sales through retail/distribution channels.
Morachi wrote: I'll just leave this here... suffice to say, the amount of bashing is proportionate to the amount of ill-will towards the community, especially the ramped up efforts in the last 6 months.
The Decade of Dickishness
Spoiler:
Note: The following does not include the regular price increments, frankly there are too many to list. I'm sure there are many more addages to this, but these are the standout cliff notes.
2003 -
Online Sales in North America blocked, restricted only to GW Online Sales via their webstore. Distribution of goods outside US prohibited.
2011 -
UK Embargo, blocking sales of GW product to anywhere outside of the UK.
Finecast (Failcast) is introduced as a cost cutting measure to the company, albeit at a much higher price to the consumer. Due to the high amount of defects in Finecast product casting some major retailers temporarily stop stocking it (Wayland Games in particular).
Further to the price hike on resin models an additional price rise is brought in shortly after in line with their 6 month/yearly "inflation" costs.
2012-
GW stores introduce single staffer model. Stores now close during lunchtimes. Provision of paints/materials that were previously a hobby starter "value add" are now revoked.
Mark Wells departs as CEO under speculative circumstances, his position being absorbed into the existing Director role (Tom "BIG CASH!" Kirby).
2013 -
Space Marine trademark. An Independent author a book removed from Amazon due to a claim by GW that they own the term "Space Marine". Games Workshop cops a bashing and it is cited that there are no grounds for such a long standing term to be considered "owned".
Social Media withdrawal. Games Workshop in the wake of the trademark backlash remove their HQ England and North American Facebook pages in a bid to silence the anger from fans and authors alike. GW cite that pushing customers to "local" pages is their reasoning for this - really this is a means to decentralising the backlash so customers have no central point of information on the subject. Comments are (and have been) disabled on YouTube to cripple any further negative response from being seen publicly.
Direct only rulebook announced which annoys many retailers. Not being able to sell the rulebook to the miniatures they stock is the reasoning behind this.
New trade guidelines for distributors and retailers. Canada now unable to partake in online sales at a retail level. Stores close as a result. Direct only ordering limits (reduced to 10% in some cases) imposed on distributors and retailers, reducing profit and forcing sales towards GW Online. Distribution and retail of goods outside North America & Canada now prohibited.
Bitz sales are also prohibited at risk of the affiliated account being cut off from supply.
Digital book price rise. Books on iTunes are raised to that of hardback prices.
GAMA and other Retailer events. GW basically flip everyone the bird, bringing in a single blank demo table. Their "paint workshop" was nothing more than a "Here's a space marine and five paints - have at it"... and a single rep repeating the same line in response to angered retailers "There's nothing I can do, but i'll pass on your concerns". No comments, no feedback, just stone walling.
Stock delayed to retailers, whilst plenty is available online via GW Direct. This is seen as a means to boost online sales through GW direct web/mail order channels, whilst reducing profit loss normally occurring by sales through retail/distribution channels.
Internet freeloaders in the US are finally dealt a decisive blow. It is a great day for brick and mortar stores.
2009 -
Games Workshop comes to an understanding with eBay regarding the sales of our products.
2011 -
Internet freeloaders in the UK are finally dealt a decisive blow. It is a great day for brick and mortar stores.
Citadel Finecast, the single greatest revolution in the history of miniature making, is released to the masses. It proves to be a huge success, and has outsold GW's metal models every quarter since its release. The detail is simply amazing on these models. They have to be seen to be believed.
Just like every year, the prices don't go up at all.
2012-
GW stores now go to the 1-man store model, where customers can come in and get whatever they need in a convenient location. The single staff member has knowledge across all areas, and this will increase sales.
We bid a fond farewell to CEO Mark Wells.
2013 -
Absolutely nothing happened with Amazon. We've never even heard of it.
From now on all interaction will be done on a store by store basis, rather than an overall company basis. Individual store Facebook pages remain whereas the redundant company Facebook pages are removed.
A new flyer expansion is released! This is great news!
Internet freeloaders in North America (including Canada this time!) are dealt another blow, cutting down on their unscrupulous behaviour. It's another great day for brick and mortar stores, such as MiniWarGaming, a highly successful Canadian brick and mortar store.
Internet freeloaders who highly inflate the prices of GW store are put to the sword.
A price adjustment is made to our online eBooks, bringing them in line with the rest of the hardcopy line and making choices far easier for our dedicated customer base.
GW proudly displays all the Games Workshop Hobby has to offer at GAMA and many other other retailer events. There were a few technical hiccups with our laptop, but that happens to everyone, right?
The knock-on effect of the Memphis plant's closure causes a slight delay to the Tau release. It is quickly and efficiently resolved.
Internet freeloaders in the US are finally dealt a decisive blow. It is a great day for brick and mortar stores.
2009 -
Games Workshop comes to an understanding with eBay regarding the sales of our products.
2011 -
Internet freeloaders in the UK are finally dealt a decisive blow. It is a great day for brick and mortar stores.
Citadel Finecast, the single greatest revolution in the history of miniature making, is released to the masses. It proves to be a huge success, and has outsold GW's metal models every quarter since its release. The detail is simply amazing on these models. They have to be seen to be believed.
Just like every year, the prices don't go up at all.
2012-
GW stores now go to the 1-man store model, where customers can come in and get whatever they need in a convenient location. The single staff member has knowledge across all areas, and this will increase sales.
We bid a fond farewell to CEO Mark Wells.
2013 -
Absolutely nothing happened with Amazon. We've never even heard of it.
From now on all interaction will be done on a store by store basis, rather than an overall company basis. Individual store Facebook pages remain whereas the redundant company Facebook pages are removed.
A new flyer expansion is released! This is great news!
Internet freeloaders in North America (including Canada this time!) are dealt another blow, cutting down on their unscrupulous behaviour. It's another great day for brick and mortar stores, such as MiniWarGaming, a highly successful Canadian brick and mortar store.
Internet freeloaders who highly inflate the prices of GW store are put to the sword.
A price adjustment is made to our online eBooks, bringing them in line with the rest of the hardcopy line and making choices far easier for our dedicated customer base.
GW proudly displays all the Games Workshop Hobby has to offer at GAMA and many other other retailer events. There were a few technical hiccups with our laptop, but that happens to everyone, right?
The knock-on effect of the Memphis plan's closure causes a slight delay to the Tau release. It is quickly and efficiently resolved.
Morachi wrote: I'll just leave this here... suffice to say, the amount of bashing is proportionate to the amount of ill-will towards the community, especially the ramped up efforts in the last 6 months.
The Decade of Dickishness
Note: The following does not include the regular price increments, frankly there are too many to list. I'm sure there are many more addages to this, but these are the standout cliff notes.
2003 -
Online Sales in North America blocked, restricted only to GW Online Sales via their webstore. Distribution of goods outside US prohibited.
2009 -
Games Workshop send correspondence to eBay, requesting restrictions be imposed on the resale of any GW produced merchandise. eBay effectively flip them off.
2011 -
UK Embargo, blocking sales of GW product to anywhere outside of the UK.
Finecast (Failcast) is introduced as a cost cutting measure to the company, albeit at a much higher price to the consumer. Due to the high amount of defects in Finecast product casting some major retailers temporarily stop stocking it (Wayland Games in particular).
Further to the price hike on resin models an additional price rise is brought in shortly after in line with their 6 month/yearly "inflation" costs.
2012-
GW stores introduce single staffer model. Stores now close during lunchtimes. Provision of paints/materials that were previously a hobby starter "value add" are now revoked.
Mark Wells departs as CEO under speculative circumstances, his position being absorbed into the existing Director role (Tom "BIG CASH!" Kirby).
2013 -
Space Marine trademark. An Independent author a book removed from Amazon due to a claim by GW that they own the term "Space Marine". Games Workshop cops a bashing and it is cited that there are no grounds for such a long standing term to be considered "owned".
Social Media withdrawal. Games Workshop in the wake of the trademark backlash remove their HQ England and North American Facebook pages in a bid to silence the anger from fans and authors alike. GW cite that pushing customers to "local" pages is their reasoning for this - really this is a means to decentralising the backlash so customers have no central point of information on the subject. Comments are (and have been) disabled on YouTube to cripple any further negative response from being seen publicly.
Direct only rulebook announced which annoys many retailers. Not being able to sell the rulebook to the miniatures they stock is the reasoning behind this.
New trade guidelines for distributors and retailers. Canada now unable to partake in online sales at a retail level. Stores close as a result. Direct only ordering limits (reduced to 10% in some cases) imposed on distributors and retailers, reducing profit and forcing sales towards GW Online. Distribution and retail of goods outside North America & Canada now prohibited.
Bitz sales are also prohibited at risk of the affiliated account being cut off from supply.
Digital book price rise. Books on iTunes are raised to that of hardback prices.
GAMA and other Retailer events. GW basically flip everyone the bird, bringing in a single blank demo table. Their "paint workshop" was nothing more than a "Here's a space marine and five paints - have at it"... and a single rep repeating the same line in response to angered retailers "There's nothing I can do, but i'll pass on your concerns". No comments, no feedback, just stone walling.
Stock delayed to retailers, whilst plenty is available online via GW Direct. This is seen as a means to boost online sales through GW direct web/mail order channels, whilst reducing profit loss normally occurring by sales through retail/distribution channels.
EDIT: Added eBay shenanigans from 2009.
This is all great news! Obviously this can only further the development of the GW hobby.
Morachi wrote: I'll just leave this here... suffice to say, the amount of bashing is proportionate to the amount of ill-will towards the community, especially the ramped up efforts in the last 6 months.
The Decade of Dickishness
...snip...
What about all that's happened from 2004-2010, including things like the wholesale closure of specialist games being a particular bugbear, including:
Closure of Fanatic magazine to online only
Consolodation of Specialist Games line
Closure of the specialist games website and forums and fanatic online and complete dropping of support
Not forgetting:
Closure of their bits service without any sort of replacement service of any kind
Removal of decent content from their website
zedmeister wrote: I have to ask as I missed it, any pointers to what happened between ebay and the wacky workshop?
GW tried to prevent resale of used GW materials (models, bitz, paints, books etc), but British trading laws does not allow this. Ebay continues to be the "black market" of used GW products.
This is required reading. especially the "Why Games Workshop is Bad and it Should Feel Bad" section.
Re-post for the workblocked (or the inappropriateness of accessing that link at work!)?
Only posting that section - its a doosey.
Why Games Workshop is Bad and it Should Feel Bad
When speaking of a company, a person is tempted to think of a large body of human beings coming together in an efficient group. The group is governed, and it is thought that someone is there to ascertain the best possible choices are being made granted the information available at hand. However, this perspective, like most of 40k's explicit war “tactics”, is absolute nonsensical trash.
Never mind that large groups are often less efficient due to the fact that most people like to agree and be part of a group, even if the group is wrong. Forget that the burden of hard work is often shrugged off thanks to the assumption that everyone else will be carrying enough of the real challenges to pull things through. Instead, focus on the fact that the people heading GW – or most large corporations for that matter – are successful, rich, ordinary men who are blessed by good fortune in an unfair universe and probably don't realize the reality. Further, examine the knowledge that, according to Sun Tzu and a variety of psychological studies, successful rich people with the profound luck are the folks most likely to make stupid mistakes out of anyone!
Now you know why GW (or the entire world, for that matter) is run the way it is.
A source of some debate on /tg/ is whether or not GW is actually charging prices that make sense for the hobby. All logic points to a resounding “no”, but another interesting social phenomena is this: fanboyism is an inbuilt human process. Whenever money is spent on a good, especially a luxury item, man has a way of increasing the illusionary worth of that item.
Imagine buying tickets to see your local team play football, and they lose. It's not even a good game, to be honest. People around the country were disappointed. However, those tickets cost a lot of money, and having spent all that money for so little in return makes a person feel stupid. We grope for other things, then, to make the tickets worth while. Yes, it was cold, but your wife was there, so you bonded! The beer was too expensive as well, but they sold your favorite brand! You had an experience! It was fun! Yes, those tickets were worth it in the end.
We'll even do this with soft drinks. Even if brain probes reveal a man likes Pepsi more than Coke, going back and telling the man what he was drinking can actually alter his memory so that he remembers liking the Coke more. It's amazing.
GW products are exactly the same way. They're ludicrously expensive. Even people who support GW fervently wish they weren't. It hurts. In a rough economy, it's hard to play the game. You spend months, years – who knows how long waiting for that new codex, it turns out to be awful compared to expectations (hello, Tyranids!), and now you've either got to suck it up and keep playing (got to buy the new Trygons, I guess, even though they aren't that great), or take a huge monetary loss and give up. Fanboyism steps in and makes it all okay. You're not just buying the models, but the game and the network utility too, so 40k is still totally fun and cool!
Big corporations, and GW as well, are predators. They feast on fanboyism. Like the Dark Eldar, they prey on your suffering and write sick, stomach-turning poetry about the flowing, green streams of vital wealth they siphon from your being. You are a toy. That cute girl at the convenience store you see all the time? Thanks to GW, you have to choose between inviting her to the theater and buying that new squadron of Guardsmen. Those of you scoffing at the dilemma, shut up; those Guardsmen are not going to nag nearly as much after you've had them for a little while, so it's totally a tough call.
But putty in their hands you may be, there are still some principles of basic economics that imply GW might not be earning enough revenue, and surprisingly, they can only lose more money by raising prices! There's no real way of knowing how things really are within GW without a look at the delicate, inner machinery they need to shoo Matt Ward's putrid, corrosive stench away from. But it does all come back to our first consideration: GW is run by the type of person most notable for making poor decisions – successful people, and a group, no less.
The situation is thus: there is more to money flow than just the bottom line, though often it's all we think of, but basically there's income, cost, and revenue. What is of most concern is revenue, which could also be thought of as profit. GW sells their models for a greater amount than what they cost, and the amount they make is revenue!
So now, there's revenue, and then there's marginal revenue. Revenue is just how much you make. Sell a thousand Guardsmen and make ten thousand dollars? Your Guardsmen revenue is $10,000! Marginal revenue, on the other hand, is how much you make compared to selling one less of the item. In this case, the Guardsmen have a marginal revenue of $10. Each Guardsman made a profit of $10, and if you sold one less Guardsman, you'd make $10 less. See? Easy. Well, for this simplified example anyway (in reality there are a lot of fixed start-up costs, but point made).
Now let's raise prices. From now on, we'll sell half as many Guardsmen per box, and the boxes will cost the same. Now marginal revenue is $22, because every time a Guardsman is sold, we bring in $20 per Guardsman plus an additional $2 gets saved thanks to the Guardsmen we didn't make! This is cool – we're in business, just like GW, /tg/! Let's do that again – our customers are fans, they'll bare it! Now we'll sell five Guardsmen to a box, and we have a marginal revenue of $45!
Okay, wait, wait. I've got it. I'm a genius. Let's sell one Guardsman. Sell it for the same price we used to sell twenty of them! We're going to be rich! Marginal revenue is going to be amazing! Like, what, over a hundred dollars a purchase?
So what's our profit in the end? What! Negative? How!? We're making so much per model! The marginal revenue is so high!
The answer is simple. Not enough people are buying one crappy Guardsman for $200 dollars. A few of the fans are sticking it out, hating us relentlessly, but newcomers to the game see the price tag and run screaming. People who can't afford it leave because they have no other choice, but they're happy in retrospect. Even some of our most loyal customers finally decided to just date that girl after all – she's not nearly as pricey and they'll deal with her constant bitching. Actual revenue is at an all time low.
Believe it or not, companies really do make this mistake, albeit not to this extent (unless you check out Forge World, anyway. Anyone want a Tau Manta? Only costs more than $1,000). It's because maximizing marginal revenue is very easy. It's simple arithmetic, and if your market base is rather inelastic (and GW's market base certainly is due to the high investment requirements of their games), a lot of times price changes won't have a huge impact, so it's easier to focus on. GW is at some point in the middle here, where it has started to become questionable.
It's hard to say if they're making right decisions or if their pricing makes the most sense. It's becoming the status quo that their games are really a hobby of those with absurd disposable income, which is not a quality described of the young men who are presumed to make up 40k's primary demographic. It's possible that they're targeting young teens with parents who will buy the models for them, but that's hard to say as well since parents will lack the dedicated fanboyism to continually invest in the absurdly priced hobby.
Mix in unbalanced rules that unfairly favor certain factions, long wait times between army updates, inferior model quality compared to what's provided to model hobbyists outside of the wargaming industry, and GW may have a recipe for a failing market.
In fact, by using some math and basic market theory, we can actually take a look at how much GW is supposedly spending to bring our hobby to us.
The list below will give us some basic numbers to work with. We know that GW currently sells its rule books at $74.25. What we don't know is GW's actual costs or how many books they're selling. These things have an impact on the math, but we'll sort of fudge it. Now, based on that alone, we want to price our book at twice what it costs to make the thing. In the real world all this nice math has the tendency to fly apart, but generally speaking that's the ideal manner of doing things. For example:
Quantity sold: 0 Price of book: $0 Estimated cost to GW: $0 Marginal Cost: $0 Marginal Revenue: $0 Total Revenue: $0
Quantity sold: 1 Price of book: $74.25 Estimated cost to GW: $37.13 Marginal Cost: $37.13 Marginal Revenue: $37.12 Total Revenue: $37.12
Quantity sold: 2 Price of book: $74.25 Estimated cost to GW: $74.25 Marginal Cost: $37.13 Marginal Revenue: $37.12 Total Revenue: $74.25
And so on. Since we're assuming that every book has a fixed cost to produce, we just get a rough idea of what it's actually costing GW to make rule books for us. Or so such is true only if we figure they're trying to price things according to a competitive market where the consumer sets the price. Basic economics says we want to have a marginal revenue equal to our marginal cost if we want to work with a price we can't really control, and that's what this does.
See, there's a few things to consider. The first is that, in a competitive market, people are just going to buy the cheapest product. That means whoever is selling cheapest kind of wins the day, but while GW could maybe sell their rule books at $20 each, they'd be suffering huge profit losses that are not directly proportionate to the change in price. Instead, they'll try to follow along with what the market is doing, and to their very best possible effort, they'll try to lower their costs so that the marginal costs equal the marginal revenue (or, again, their prices are basically double their production costs per item). That just simply maximizes revenue, since if they raise prices their competitors will undercut them and GW will be able to sell nothing.
But honestly, if you've read this far, then hopefully you're braced for this shock. According to estimates from a few publishers, it only costs about $3 per book to publish 5,000 hardback books, and that cost decreases as you publish in greater bulk. 40k books do have a lot of pretty pictures, so maybe that increases costs somewhat, but again, costs generally tend to get smaller as you order more of an item, and it's pretty likely that GW is not just settling for a measly 5,000 books internationally. They sell all over the world.
So where are all these other costs popping up that should cause GW to spend $37 on every single book they produce? In small production quantities, we'd consider the cost of labor. Who knows how much Matt Ward demands to be paid to lick every rule book before it leaves the factory! What do the photographers want in compensation? Actually, stop. At GW's production rates, those expense considerations become almost completely negligible. You pay Matt Ward a salary to lick all the books. It's a yearly thing. You pay him once and you're done, so by the time you've produced a million books, even if you paid Matt a million dollars to slobber on every single page, Matt is only increasing the cost of the books by a dollar each.
Margins are all that matter. GW talks about overheads and so forth as an excuse, but that's insanity. In a perfectly competitive market you don't increase prices to cover overheads. You reduce the overheads because they're predictable annual costs that you more or less established on your own! Besides, you shouldn't be able to arbitrarily raise prices like that, seeing as how your competitors are supposedly keeping you in check! So really, what we can infer is the following:
A. Basically, GW has no competitors controlling their pricing right now.
B. They are price gouging their players.
C. Their pricing is not directly related to their costs, and anything they say to the contrary is a big fat lie.
D. You could play another game, but all your friends are playing 40k anyway and you don't want to feel left out.
E. **** Games Workshop
This article also explains the problem with Australian prices, in a slightly less detailed manner
Morachi wrote: I'll just leave this here... suffice to say, the amount of bashing is proportionate to the amount of ill-will towards the community, especially the ramped up efforts in the last 6 months.
The Decade of Dickishness
Spoiler:
Note: The following does not include the regular price increments, frankly there are too many to list. I'm sure there are many more addages to this, but these are the standout cliff notes.
2003 -
Online Sales in North America blocked, restricted only to GW Online Sales via their webstore. Distribution of goods outside US prohibited.
2011 -
UK Embargo, blocking sales of GW product to anywhere outside of the UK.
Finecast (Failcast) is introduced as a cost cutting measure to the company, albeit at a much higher price to the consumer. Due to the high amount of defects in Finecast product casting some major retailers temporarily stop stocking it (Wayland Games in particular).
Further to the price hike on resin models an additional price rise is brought in shortly after in line with their 6 month/yearly "inflation" costs.
2012-
GW stores introduce single staffer model. Stores now close during lunchtimes. Provision of paints/materials that were previously a hobby starter "value add" are now revoked.
Mark Wells departs as CEO under speculative circumstances, his position being absorbed into the existing Director role (Tom "BIG CASH!" Kirby).
2013 -
Space Marine trademark. An Independent author a book removed from Amazon due to a claim by GW that they own the term "Space Marine". Games Workshop cops a bashing and it is cited that there are no grounds for such a long standing term to be considered "owned".
Social Media withdrawal. Games Workshop in the wake of the trademark backlash remove their HQ England and North American Facebook pages in a bid to silence the anger from fans and authors alike. GW cite that pushing customers to "local" pages is their reasoning for this - really this is a means to decentralising the backlash so customers have no central point of information on the subject. Comments are (and have been) disabled on YouTube to cripple any further negative response from being seen publicly.
Direct only rulebook announced which annoys many retailers. Not being able to sell the rulebook to the miniatures they stock is the reasoning behind this.
New trade guidelines for distributors and retailers. Canada now unable to partake in online sales at a retail level. Stores close as a result. Direct only ordering limits (reduced to 10% in some cases) imposed on distributors and retailers, reducing profit and forcing sales towards GW Online. Distribution and retail of goods outside North America & Canada now prohibited.
Bitz sales are also prohibited at risk of the affiliated account being cut off from supply.
Digital book price rise. Books on iTunes are raised to that of hardback prices.
GAMA and other Retailer events. GW basically flip everyone the bird, bringing in a single blank demo table. Their "paint workshop" was nothing more than a "Here's a space marine and five paints - have at it"... and a single rep repeating the same line in response to angered retailers "There's nothing I can do, but i'll pass on your concerns". No comments, no feedback, just stone walling.
Stock delayed to retailers, whilst plenty is available online via GW Direct. This is seen as a means to boost online sales through GW direct web/mail order channels, whilst reducing profit loss normally occurring by sales through retail/distribution channels.
Oh, GW...
Yep, that pretty much sums it up. It's like watching a favorite uncle go down the tubes with drugs and liqueur. Such a shame.
I never heard about GW trying to stop eBay selling their stuff, that's fething unbelievable.
I'm glad they were told to do one, I've made every purchase second hand for about two years.
I will add however, regards the whole debate, why are terms like hater and white knight not considered to be rude? I hate even seeing it typed, it makes me feel like if any impartial observer comes in for a read they will think we are a bunch of entitled dweebs with a complex.
And if someone is part of this gak unfunny clique that tries to bully people with the help of his buddies, loling and calling me a white knight, why am I not entitled to call him a mother fether?
Disregard any name calling Mattyrm, this is the internet and people will say rubbish like that at times, its more out of frustration than anything from what i've seen.
But yes, it was good to see eBay put GW in their place. Can you imagine the fall out if that had made it through? One shudders at the thought.
One interesting fact about human psychology is that people seem to accept or reject arguments based not on their factual content, but based on whether they agree with the conclusions. You can see this principle at work on these very boards-- when I said that GW did not have any truly direct competitors earlier as part of an argument saying that GW would likely be around for a while, people incessantly made fun of the notion.
However, when whoever wrote that 4chan post said that GW did not have any truly direct competitors as part of an argument about how bad GW is, people responded positively instead-- motivated cognition at work!
Grot 6 wrote: The hate flows when GW screws up, just as the praise comes when they do well.
The door swings both ways.
Pahahaha!! Oh, you're serious? So, when was the last time you heard of someone praising GW for, for example, the plastic Nurgle Champion? It's an amazing model, but outside of a few " that's really nice" posts in the thread where it was announced, i cant remember it being mentioned since.
Conversely, when was the last time you heard of someone criticising GW for a model that was released a while ago that people still refer to by a stupid nickname? "the Pumbagor" "goldswords" etc?
There is a huge disparity between the amount that GW are criticised for getting something wrong, and the amount they are praised for getting it very right, and to argue otherwise is ridiculous.
You're forgetting that it is community driven and compiled/edited by many. No single person wrote that entire list of content.
Just as you get differing and conflicting opinion here as well.
I also might mention that it is a Wiki entry, not a blog with comments - I see no "positive response" there, so your comment about "people responded positively instead" holds no merit. Unless you care to explain further.
Morachi wrote: Disregard any name calling Mattyrm, this is the internet and people will say rubbish like that at times, its more out of frustration than anything from what i've seen.
But yes, it was good to see eBay put GW in their place. Can you imagine the fall out if that had made it through? One shudders at the thought.
Oh yeah totally, the eBay thing would have outraged me!
I actually love checking eBay for GW stuff, not just to save money and avoid buying new, but It's almost as much fun as gambling on paddy power! I like trawling for bargains and looking at the photos and paint jobs and such, it's nearly a hobby in itself!
GW have really done some stupidly greedy things, it's obviously just a case of short term gain over the long term health that all the really great family owned companies seem to aim for.
Kingsley wrote: One interesting fact about human psychology is that people seem to accept or reject arguments based not on their factual content, but based on whether they agree with the conclusions. You can see this principle at work on these very boards--
-Loki- wrote:Honestly this is the first time I've ever heard someone actually liking the screw tops (aside from when they were first released and a couple of GW staffers were jumping up and down about how they are so much easier to open). So you can imagine my surprise I've never heard any comments beyond they are a pain to open when you get even the slightest paint in the lid and they dry out far too easily, certainly nothing positive.
I've met at least 2500 SEAL team 6 and SAS members online.
insaniak wrote:Yeah, I had a pot of red ink in the screwtops that leaked all over the place without being opened. And I went through 3 pots of Tin Bitz before I ever actually got to use it... That stuff dried out ridiculously quickly in the screwtops.
My old Coat D'arms paints, by comparison, are still good after 19 years... and half of them have cracked lids, and still haven't dried out
This exactly, I have old Coat D'arms round paint pots that the lids are breaking apart on, are older than most of the posters here, and the paint is just as good as the day I bought it in high school.
Kingsley wrote: One interesting fact about human psychology is that people seem to accept or reject arguments based not on their factual content, but based on whether they agree with the conclusions.
Another interesting fact about human psychology is how everyone who puts forward a theory like that never seem to consider that it might apply to them as well as the people they're disagreeing with.
Kingsley wrote: One interesting fact about human psychology is that people seem to accept or reject arguments based not on their factual content, but based on whether they agree with the conclusions. You can see this principle at work on these very boards--
Yes. Yes I can
Elemental wrote:
Kingsley wrote: One interesting fact about human psychology is that people seem to accept or reject arguments based not on their factual content, but based on whether they agree with the conclusions.
Another interesting fact about human psychology is how everyone who puts forward a theory like that never seem to consider that it might apply to them as well as the people they're disagreeing with.
Bravo, good sirs.
When an argument is as squishy as "should we be mean to GW ?" I think objectivity is nearly impossible.
And things go two ways. The Tau book just came out, and the tactics and list building forums are lit up with discussions about it. Sure, there's a bit of a dutch rudder going on in discussions about if the book is good, but if you look a little further you'll see people enjoying GW products and having a good time.
If my adepticon Team Tournament army weren't a super secret project, I'd have a massive WIP blog going on right now, with GW models mixed with a wide variety of third party stuff.
The point is, nearly any positive GW discussion is going to take place outside of the general forums, and instead will be in Modeling, gaming, battle reports, tactics, whatever.
BryllCream wrote: People are still knocking GW for not advertising, despite new Tau stuff being horifically popular? Sounds about right
GW is not a start up, and is not clawing for market share. GW is a market leader. It's a restaurant in a good location. It's a sports team with a loaded roster. It is the best funded, largest, and most pervasive minis gaming company. It has a global supply chain from manufacturing through retail. It should do well. Doing well is not notable.
For a company in GWs position, treading water is a bad sign. And market leaders are not too big to fail. Look at GM for great examples Research in Motion (maker of the blackberry).
GW should be growing. Growing in sales, player base, and in reach.
TV is clearly a passing fad as more moves to the internet which is a passing fad itself. Thus eventually we'll return to live performances for entertainment and criers to deliver the news. Meaning word of mouth is the marketing strategy of the future you guys!
TV is clearly a passing fad as more moves to the internet which is a passing fad itself. Thus eventually we'll return to live performances for entertainment and criers to deliver the news. Meaning word of mouth is the marketing strategy of the future you guys!
They even puts females in it to confuse the young boys in to thinking it'd be anything other than a sausage fest
Advertising isn't just about TV though, I know at one point in one thread I listed off advertising methods and TV was only just 1 of them.
By this point GW is probably saying everything besides magazines are a passing fad, because that's the only way you'd know GW exists. And even that you have to buy directly...
Games Workshop send correspondence to eBay, requesting restrictions be imposed on the resale of any GW produced merchandise. eBay effectively flip them off.
.
This is the first time I have heard of this , it seems unbelievable
Games Workshop send correspondence to eBay, requesting restrictions be imposed on the resale of any GW produced merchandise. eBay effectively flip them off.
.
This is the first time I have heard of this , it seems unbelievable
Kingsley wrote: One interesting fact about human psychology is that people seem to accept or reject arguments based not on their factual content, but based on whether they agree with the conclusions.
Another interesting fact about human psychology is how everyone who puts forward a theory like that never seem to consider that it might apply to them as well as the people they're disagreeing with.
Cute. Not right, but cute.
Polonius wrote:The point is, nearly any positive GW discussion is going to take place outside of the general forums, and instead will be in Modeling, gaming, battle reports, tactics, whatever.
I think that's fairly easy to notice-- the real question is why it is the case, and what can be done to fix the problem.
As in Jusify or Rationalize GW decision to attempt something so blatantly wrong
Beause GW would like to control the entire miniature wargames industry, including the second hand market, and is delusional enough to believe that it is both capable of doing so and within its rights to do it.
Polonius wrote:The point is, nearly any positive GW discussion is going to take place outside of the general forums, and instead will be in Modeling, gaming, battle reports, tactics, whatever.
I think that's fairly easy to notice-- the real question is why it is the case, and what can be done to fix the problem.
Why is it a problem?
I mean, seriously? So a bunch of people in a handful of threads in a few places are super mean to GW.
And as for why, for the same reason guys sitting around a bar rarely speak well of their wives: sometimes venting is just venting.
RatBot Beause GW would like to control the entire miniature wargames industry, including the second hand market, and is delusional enough to believe that it is both capable of doing so and within its rights to do it.
Thanks - Rationalization ticked
Now anyone want to have a go at why GW trying to restrict people selling their own property , and which GW has no legal basis in trying to restrict , how this is actually really a good thing ?
I mean, seriously? So a bunch of people in a handful of threads in a few places are super mean to GW.
And as for why, for the same reason guys sitting around a bar rarely speak well of their wives: sometimes venting is just venting.
It's always dangerous for a community to become too divorced from reality. In reality, GW is neither good nor evil. It's just another company trying to make money, and there really isn't anything that notable about it.
Polonius wrote:The point is, nearly any positive GW discussion is going to take place outside of the general forums, and instead will be in Modeling, gaming, battle reports, tactics, whatever.
I think that's fairly easy to notice-- the real question is why it is the case, and what can be done to fix the problem.
As for how to increase the positivity of discussion, there are a few paths:
1) Silence some negativity.
2) have people with positive comments post more
3) Have GW stop doing things to piss off it's player base.
One is the easiest, for many reasons. First, few people feel very strongly positively about anything. Secondly, and I'm going to choose my words carefully here... most of the "GW bashing," by volume, is not unsolicited comments. It's responses to people challenging criticisms. If people stopped defending every GW decision, or did so in less confrontational ways, you'd see less negativity.
I mean, seriously? So a bunch of people in a handful of threads in a few places are super mean to GW.
And as for why, for the same reason guys sitting around a bar rarely speak well of their wives: sometimes venting is just venting.
It's always dangerous for a community to become too divorced from reality. In reality, GW is neither good nor evil. It's just another company trying to make money, and there really isn't anything that notable about it.
and this is why every criticism of GW turns into a flame war. Because, fundamentally, every discussion turns into some version of this:
Poster 1: "I feel this way, and for this reason."
Poster 2: "You shouldn't feel that way. Your reasons are bad, and here are reasons you should feel better."
If you're truly concerned about connections to reality (which you might be, as a sidelight to your flamewar business), you'd follow the examples of people like Yak or Hulk or the guys that post reasons they like stuff, and why things can be great, rather than constantly butting heads.
Polonius wrote: If you're truly concerned about connections to reality (which you might be, as a sidelight to your flamewar business), you'd follow the examples of people like Yak or Hulk or the guys that post reasons they like stuff, and why things can be great, rather than constantly butting heads.
I, uh, do post reasons why I like stuff. I would say that most of my posts are far more high-effort and evidence-based than those of the people arguing with me. Generally speaking a minority viewpoint has to be more rigorously supported in order to be successful, since people will otherwise be inclined to dismiss it out of hand.
Kingsley wrote: It's always dangerous for a community to become too divorced from reality. In reality, GW is neither good nor evil. It's just another company trying to make money, and there really isn't anything that notable about it.
If you feel there is a problem with the community being divorced from reality, why fight tooth and nail against people making negative comments? It only serves to polarise the community even further. There's no problem with individuals being divorced from reality, at worst it's simply a polarisation of the community.
BryllCream wrote: People are still knocking GW for not advertising, despite new Tau stuff being horifically popular? Sounds about right
GW is not a start up, and is not clawing for market share. GW is a market leader. It's a restaurant in a good location. It's a sports team with a loaded roster. It is the best funded, largest, and most pervasive minis gaming company. It has a global supply chain from manufacturing through retail. It should do well. Doing well is not notable.
So there are never collectable/model lines that are sold out way quicker than anyone at the top expected?
[quote=Kingsley
It's always dangerous for a community to become too divorced from reality.
Bit out of the context but it made me chuckle to think of this particular community ( that Wargames with Toy Soldiers )- having a reality epiphany in the middle of a game ,
If any community needs to be divorced from reality to exist its this one
Grot 6 wrote: The hate flows when GW screws up, just as the praise comes when they do well.
The door swings both ways.
Pahahaha!! Oh, you're serious? So, when was the last time you heard of someone praising GW for, for example, the plastic Nurgle Champion? It's an amazing model, but outside of a few " that's really nice" posts in the thread where it was announced, i cant remember it being mentioned since.
Conversely, when was the last time you heard of someone criticising GW for a model that was released a while ago that people still refer to by a stupid nickname? "the Pumbagor" "goldswords" etc?
There is a huge disparity between the amount that GW are criticised for getting something wrong, and the amount they are praised for getting it very right, and to argue otherwise is ridiculous.
The door really doesn't swing both ways.
WAIT WAIT WAIT WAIT! Did you just say the praise or ridicule of ONE model is equal proportion to ANYTHING that GW has pulled? Are you serious? What do you expect people to say about a model? "That looks nice, I'll buy it." every time? GW's embargo, has a much bigger impact than a model. GW's price gouging is much bigger than a model. You have no sense or proportionality. The razorgore was a colossal failure of a model by a company that made rather nice models. Nobody looked at it and thought, "This looks butt ugly. Do it again," in GW. That kind of model is going to stick out like a spear in the head. People are going to laugh at it. People gushed over the plastic Grey Knights. People were disappointed with many of the large beasties for fantasy. They get praise when it's deserved, dissatisfaction when it is deserved and ridicule when it is deserved. But the quality of models isn't relevant to this conversation. This has nothing to do with that beyond the price for the model being charged. If you think GW deserves praise for any of their business practices, I would love to hear it.
bkiker wrote: I hope I'm mistaken and have just stumbled into wrong threads and topics.
I'm not entirely sure what caused the culture of these boards to become so anti-GW, but to be honest I'm growing increasingly tired of it and am tempted to start posting on boards where people are a little more clear-headed.
The first reason is that the game rules are stupid and unbalanced, that was strike one for GW. The game is unplaybal as far as I'm concerned...
The second reason was them giving up trying to fix the rules and saying they suport "cinimatic gameplay", and stopped giving suport to competative gamplay.. That was Strike two..
The third reason was all the crap they made on a corporate level the last two years... We laugh our ass off at my local club at all the idiotic decisions they keep making.. That was the third and final strike..
That people keep defending them makes it all the more fun... haha
Kingsley wrote: One interesting fact about human psychology is that people seem to accept or reject arguments based not on their factual content, but based on whether they agree with the conclusions.
Another interesting fact about human psychology is how everyone who puts forward a theory like that never seem to consider that it might apply to them as well as the people they're disagreeing with.
Cute. Not right, but cute.
Polonius wrote:The point is, nearly any positive GW discussion is going to take place outside of the general forums, and instead will be in Modeling, gaming, battle reports, tactics, whatever.
I think that's fairly easy to notice-- the real question is why it is the case, and what can be done to fix the problem.
Polonius wrote: If you're truly concerned about connections to reality (which you might be, as a sidelight to your flamewar business), you'd follow the examples of people like Yak or Hulk or the guys that post reasons they like stuff, and why things can be great, rather than constantly butting heads.
I, uh, do post reasons why I like stuff. I would say that most of my posts are far more high-effort and evidence-based than those of the people arguing with me. Generally speaking a minority viewpoint has to be more rigorously supported in order to be successful, since people will otherwise be inclined to dismiss it out of hand.
But what Polonius says is spot on, and you go on to openly say 'my posts are better than those of people arguing with me'. Missing his point entirely, his point is stop arguing, stop targeting and state making a strong positive point of your own instead of taking on what you perceive as negative posts and heaping negativity on them.
GW does X
Poster says 'hey I don't like X'
You retort with 'you're dumb for disliking X'
Poster rounds on you and say 'nu-uh, you're dumb because Y'
and round and round we go.
You go page after page after page with people and then complain that the site is a negative and conflict stewn hellhole.
You make that happen.
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BryllCream wrote: People are still knocking GW for not advertising, despite new Tau stuff being horifically popular? Sounds about right
1. Is there any evidence that not advertising produce sells more than advertising product? Conventional business wisdom seems to indicate that informing people of your wares allows them to buy your wares.
2. Do you have anything at all to back up your statement that Tau is horrifically popular as opposed to the counter argument that they made less or there was a problem in the production of the product?
Or are we, once again, being treated to your opinion as fact and every else's opinion being treated as nonsense, by you...
Grot 6 wrote: The hate flows when GW screws up, just as the praise comes when they do well.
The door swings both ways.
Pahahaha!! Oh, you're serious? So, when was the last time you heard of someone praising GW for, for example, the plastic Nurgle Champion? It's an amazing model, but outside of a few " that's really nice" posts in the thread where it was announced, i cant remember it being mentioned since.
Conversely, when was the last time you heard of someone criticising GW for a model that was released a while ago that people still refer to by a stupid nickname? "the Pumbagor" "goldswords" etc?
There is a huge disparity between the amount that GW are criticised for getting something wrong, and the amount they are praised for getting it very right, and to argue otherwise is ridiculous.
The door really doesn't swing both ways.
What are you talking about?
You didn't like the superheavy tanks or stompa models?
You didn't like 5th editions Ork codex when it was relevent?
The Dark Eldar Took them damn near 10 years, but didn't they eventually revamp them into something useable?
The disparity is in how GW can swing that door, to on one hand- make better models, yet make such gak decisions amounting to a WTF reaction from me as a customer.
There is no disparity. GW either craps the bed, or they make a game that they can spin into what they want you to think it is.
GW is a gak company, but the game is what people like, for good or ill.
As to your champion comment- so what?
Just because they make a good model ignores the total package. That demon codex is gak. Who cares if they make a good model at that point, or plastic units for three times the old cost of the metals? When you change the game to such an extent- GW plays a zero sum gain when they close down stores, crap on FLGS's and rewrite the product to the extent that the game becomes unplayable with ALREADY released codex's.
That good Ork codex, that pretty good Dark Eldar codex is now worthless, as are the models. Example- painfully so? Orks from 4th edition to 5th. They go from metal specifics to plastic general use.
To the kid that throws down his 50.00 for the purchase, then to be told- "Don't come back in here, we don't want you here painting and playing..." They then not only lose out on playing a game, but 50.00 and build in the continuous ire that GW brings to the table.
Oh, and by the way- the running joke is still relevent.
I mean, seriously? So a bunch of people in a handful of threads in a few places are super mean to GW.
And as for why, for the same reason guys sitting around a bar rarely speak well of their wives: sometimes venting is just venting.
It's always dangerous for a community to become too divorced from reality. In reality, GW is neither good nor evil. It's just another company trying to make money, and there really isn't anything that notable about it.
Divorced from reality? I'm gona tell you my Reality.. I find it really hard to find anyone who has anything good to say about GW these days, when I'm out playing in my area. All the clubs I play in have mostly stoped playing the game, and are now playing better options on the market. That is my Reality..
The one thing that has changed though in the last few years is that I meet more and more people who are activly advocating against GW. Telling others not to play the game and pointing out all the flaws in the rules etc..
They have spent considerable amounts of money in Washington DC lobbying congress to prevent rules and regulations that apply to pawn shops from being applied to them. The amount of stolen goods that circulate through E-bay is pretty staggering. They rely on "user policing" to control this, but they spend minimal amounts actual Ebay staff to police this.
There are supposedly several people who are banned from my LGS' because they are know shoplifters and they sell the goods on Ebay. Put that $40 kit in a pocket, walk out, and put on Ebay for instant profit.
Grot 6 wrote: The hate flows when GW screws up, just as the praise comes when they do well.
The door swings both ways.
Pahahaha!! Oh, you're serious? So, when was the last time you heard of someone praising GW for, for example, the plastic Nurgle Champion? It's an amazing model, but outside of a few " that's really nice" posts in the thread where it was announced, i cant remember it being mentioned since.
WTF, you think a plastic infantry size model that cost $25 is worth praise. Its bad enough that people will bend over and pay that price but you praising that product is truly atonishing.
Kingsley wrote: It's always dangerous for a community to become too divorced from reality. In reality, GW is neither good nor evil. It's just another company trying to make money, and there really isn't anything that notable about it.
If you feel there is a problem with the community being divorced from reality, why fight tooth and nail against people making negative comments? It only serves to polarise the community even further. There's no problem with individuals being divorced from reality, at worst it's simply a polarisation of the community.
I think that a polarized community is better than one that outright refuses to see one side of an issue.
Nucflash wrote:The first reason is that the game rules are stupid and unbalanced, that was strike one for GW. The game is unplaybal as far as I'm concerned...
I disagree. 6th edition is probably the most balanced edition of the game yet. First edition and second edition did not even really try to be balanced. Third edition and fourth edition were dominated by gimmicks. Fifth edition was better, but there was still a very prevalent style of army (mech) favored by most serious players, which while not as bad as the Rhino Rush of 3rd edition or the holo-Falcons and Nidzilla spam of 4th edition, was still somewhat dull and limiting. Sixth edition does not seem to have any style of army that is anywhere close to as dominant as other editions have had.
Nucflash wrote:The second reason was them giving up trying to fix the rules and saying they suport "cinimatic gameplay", and stopped giving suport to competative gamplay.. That was Strike two..
Them "giving up trying to fix the rules" exists only in your mind.
Nucflash wrote:The third reason was all the crap they made on a corporate level the last two years... We laugh our ass off at my local club at all the idiotic decisions they keep making.. That was the third and final strike..
A lot of people disagree with many decisions made by GW on a corporate level. But what I think they don't realize is that any other company would make the same decisions were they in the same place (see the Plastic Soldier Company issue). When you evaluate GW, you have to consider positional factors. For instance, the new White Dwarf is far, far more professional than the old White Dwarf. The new GW website is far, far more professional than the old GW website. Both of them no longer include certain types of content which many found appealing-- but that content would be very hard to develop and show in a professional manner.
Now, some of GW's decisions are stupid. Their lawsuits over the phrase "Space Marine" are laughable to anyone who knows about the science fiction tradition of that phrase. But the few stupid decisions seem to have been blown out of proportion into a general bias against GW's decisions, good or not.
MeanGreenStompa wrote:You go page after page after page with people and then complain that the site is a negative and conflict stewn hellhole.
You make that happen.
I would rather have the site be negative and conflict-strewn than systematically biased and one-sided. Again, I think that seeing multiple sides to an issue is far more important than harmony and lack of arguments on these forums. You yourself claim that this site is influential for a great number of hobbyists. If that's true, isn't it even more important that they get an unbiased perspective, or at the very least see that there are two sides to any issue? Also, much of the issues here IMO lie with the moderation team's apparent unwillingness to remove insulting content. I think that Rule One should be enforced much more strongly than it currently is.
End result remains the same though me and my 12 friends (gaming group) stoped playing games workshop games and picked up others instead. We used to be 18 in my gaming club but the remaining 6 have stoped playing table-top games all together (their GW armies are collecting dust on the shelfs in our local gaming club, they havent been used for over a year now.)...
Two of the larger clubs in my local area ( I would estimate they are about 60-70 people in total ( about 30-60m drive from were i live), have all stoped playing games workshop games. What remains are the toddlers playing at GWs shop in town(vets are baned from the shop) and one Club in the city, that are mostly dead.(their forums are a ghost town, they are not that active anymore) that play GWs games...
That is what "only exist in my mind" and my "imaginary unbalanced rules" have done to warhammer and GW games in my local area. The funny thing though is that we have an active Blood Bowl community, and people who play Mordheim, but GW do not suport those games rules anymore, they live on because of the dedicated people of the community hahaha.... And they use alot of other figures in their games.. so GW arnt making any money of these people..
Tomorrow we are going to a warmachine Tournament that will have about 70-80 people participating.. the community (that GW hates) made this happen... In the End the community of the hobby are Judge, jury and executioner.. if we decide GW is gak it is gak... even if we are imagining things and are totaly wrong... We can shut them down whenever we want... And that is what will happen if they dont Make a U turn and start doing things the way we want them done..
Kingsley wrote: It's always dangerous for a community to become too divorced from reality. In reality, GW is neither good nor evil. It's just another company trying to make money, and there really isn't anything that notable about it.
If you feel there is a problem with the community being divorced from reality, why fight tooth and nail against people making negative comments? It only serves to polarise the community even further. There's no problem with individuals being divorced from reality, at worst it's simply a polarisation of the community.
I think that a polarized community is better than one that outright refuses to see one side of an issue.
Nucflash wrote:The first reason is that the game rules are stupid and unbalanced, that was strike one for GW. The game is unplaybal as far as I'm concerned...
I disagree. 6th edition is probably the most balanced edition of the game yet. First edition and second edition did not even really try to be balanced. Third edition and fourth edition were dominated by gimmicks. Fifth edition was better, but there was still a very prevalent style of army (mech) favored by most serious players, which while not as bad as the Rhino Rush of 3rd edition or the holo-Falcons and Nidzilla spam of 4th edition, was still somewhat dull and limiting. Sixth edition does not seem to have any style of army that is anywhere close to as dominant as other editions have had.
Nucflash wrote:The second reason was them giving up trying to fix the rules and saying they suport "cinimatic gameplay", and stopped giving suport to competative gamplay.. That was Strike two..
Them "giving up trying to fix the rules" exists only in your mind.
Nucflash wrote:The third reason was all the crap they made on a corporate level the last two years... We laugh our ass off at my local club at all the idiotic decisions they keep making.. That was the third and final strike..
A lot of people disagree with many decisions made by GW on a corporate level. But what I think they don't realize is that any other company would make the same decisions were they in the same place (see the Plastic Soldier Company issue). When you evaluate GW, you have to consider positional factors. For instance, the new White Dwarf is far, far more professional than the old White Dwarf. The new GW website is far, far more professional than the old GW website. Both of them no longer include certain types of content which many found appealing-- but that content would be very hard to develop and show in a professional manner.
Now, some of GW's decisions are stupid. Their lawsuits over the phrase "Space Marine" are laughable to anyone who knows about the science fiction tradition of that phrase. But the few stupid decisions seem to have been blown out of proportion into a general bias against GW's decisions, good or not.
MeanGreenStompa wrote:You go page after page after page with people and then complain that the site is a negative and conflict stewn hellhole.
You make that happen.
I would rather have the site be negative and conflict-strewn than systematically biased and one-sided. Again, I think that seeing multiple sides to an issue is far more important than harmony and lack of arguments on these forums. You yourself claim that this site is influential for a great number of hobbyists. If that's true, isn't it even more important that they get an unbiased perspective, or at the very least see that there are two sides to any issue? Also, much of the issues here IMO lie with the moderation team's apparent unwillingness to remove insulting content. I think that Rule One should be enforced much more strongly than it currently is.
Are you actually reading what you are posting here?
What is the PSC issue? Can you post up a link please. I know that they have a few different scales, but I thought they just produce figures, didn't know they had drama as well.
Nah Nucflash. I'm sure all those people dropping 40K is all to do with their negativity (and regional minimum wages), and nothing at all to do with anything GW has done in the past 5 years.
Nucflash wrote: End result remains the same though me and my 12 friends (gaming group) stoped playing games workshop games and picked up others instead. We used to be 18 in my gaming club but the remaining 6 have stoped playing table-top games all together (their GW armies are collecting dust on the shelfs in our local gaming club, they havent been used for over a year now.)...
Two of the larger clubs in my local area ( I would estimate they are about 60-70 people in total ( about 30-60m drive from were i live), have all stoped playing games workshop games. What remains are the toddlers playing at GWs shop in town(vets are baned from the shop) and one Club in the city, that are mostly dead.(their forums are a ghost town, they are not that active anymore) that play GWs games...
That is what "only exist in my mind" and my "imaginary unbalanced rules" have done to warhammer and GW games in my local area. The funny thing though is that we have an active Blood Bowl community, and people who play Mordheim, but GW do not suport those games rules anymore, they live on because of the dedicated people of the community hahaha.... And they use alot of other figures in their games.. so GW arnt making any money of these people..
Okay. In my area the GW community is growing. Who is right?!?
The answer, of course, is that different people and groups of people can react to things differently and that there isn't really a "right" and "wrong" here. There is room for both perspectives-- but on these forums, that might be hard to spot.
H.B.M.C. wrote: Nah Nucflash. I'm sure all those people dropping 40K is all to do with their negativity (and regional minimum wages), and nothing at all to do with anything GW has done in the past 5 years.
xraytango wrote: What is the PSC issue? Can you post up a link please. I know that they have a few different scales, but I thought they just produce figures, didn't know they had drama as well.
bkiker wrote: I hope I'm mistaken and have just stumbled into wrong threads and topics.
I'm not entirely sure what caused the culture of these boards to become so anti-GW, but to be honest I'm growing increasingly tired of it and am tempted to start posting on boards where people are a little more clear-headed.
The first reason is that the game rules are stupid and unbalanced, that was strike one for GW. The game is unplaybal as far as I'm concerned...
The second reason was them giving up trying to fix the rules and saying they suport "cinimatic gameplay", and stopped giving suport to competative gamplay.. That was Strike two..
The third reason was all the crap they made on a corporate level the last two years... We laugh our ass off at my local club at all the idiotic decisions they keep making.. That was the third and final strike..
That people keep defending them makes it all the more fun... haha
Not defending gw but I must inform you of solutions to you're strikes
Solution 1 to you're strike one: stop playing or play out dated editions
Solution 2 to you're strike two: See above solution.
Solution 3 to you're strike three: Don't like what the company does okay so do what normal people do and stop buying their product.
Now I am sure you will agree those are proper solutions that you no doubt thought of already. Me on the other hand will just grin, promptly bend over and wait for GW to rape me again, let's face it I am addicted to 40k
So they said, we won't send support for our game if you don't use our models and everyone got butt-hurt over it?
So now its "please compose 50% of your army from our models for events using our rules and our support."?
Sorry, I fail to see the parallel with this and general ninney-hammered moves that GW makes.
I honestly don't see whats wrong with requiring a range of models to be used with a set of rules in order to receive tournament support from the company that makes them.
So it was Battlefront drama more than any policy from PSC.
xraytango wrote: What is the PSC issue? Can you post up a link please. I know that they have a few different scales, but I thought they just produce figures, didn't know they had drama as well.
Two points, Kingsley, that I feel need to be mentioned (as I realize that you certainly won't be including them):
1. The current higher-ups at Battlefront are GW trained. Thus, it is not unexpected that they would respond to a problem (i.e., competition) in a manner that GW would.
2. That decision was reversed - Sinsynn doesn't mention it, but thanks to the vocal outcry from their online community (gee, isn't there a thread on that right now?), that number was decreased to 50% - a goal that is easily accomplished by using BF infantry (which are relatively on par with other metal 15mm WWII miniatures) with PSC vehicles, which are obviously cheaper.
I honestly don't see whats wrong with requiring a range of models to be used with a set of rules in order to receive tournament support from the company that makes them.
Simply put, that's taboo in Historicals. There has never really been a company that produces miniatures and rules and demanded that only their models be used in their events (even GW didn't do with with their Historical lines of rules, because they knew how stupid that would be).
infinite_array wrote: Two points, Kingsley, that I feel need to be mentioned (as I realize that you certainly won't be including them):
1. The current higher-ups at Battlefront are GW trained. Thus, it is not unexpected that they would respond to a problem (i.e., competition) in a manner that GW would.
2. That decision was reversed - Sinsynn doesn't mention it, but thanks to the vocal outcry from their online community (gee, isn't there a thread on that right now?), that number was decreased to 50% - a goal that is easily accomplished by using BF infantry (which are relatively on par with other metal 15mm WWII miniatures) with PSC vehicles, which are obviously cheaper.
The difference is solely positional. If Battlefront were in a position where they could ignore the outcry and just say "nope, not allowed" (as GW is), they would.
Okay. In my area the GW community is growing. Who is right?!?
The answer, of course, is that different people and groups of people can react to things differently and that there isn't really a "right" and "wrong" here. There is room for both perspectives-- but on these forums, that might be hard to spot.
Funny thing though Kingsley is that your own countrymen are telling a totaly diffrent story.. and some are even asking you what alternate reality you are inhabiting? In the end it comes down to numbers and your local gaming community looks on the surface to be in the minority... And if I look out into my own reality they reflect these boards perfectly..
Now using ordinary logic, your gaming area will at some point become effected by whats happening around it.. This means even if you have been spared thus far.. time will catch up to you.. Its just the nature of the beast... It can of course be stopped. But then GW has to take action now.. or in the end, your Island of GW gamers will get swallowed up by the larger community..
I understand that you know this and that is why you are fighting thooth and claw on these boards.. But a better action would be to join the rest of us now and we can put pressure on GW today!. and not when its to late and the last bastion of GW gamers falls into the abyss and are lost forever... Because at this point all evidence points to this, everything from GWs stagnent sales(that they keep up by raising prices).. To idiotic decisions that brings them closer and closer to the precipice that will tip the scale towards their competitors and send them swirling down in a death spiral...
Nucflash wrote: Funny thing though Kingsley is that your own countrymen are telling a totaly diffrent story.. and some are even asking you what alternate reality you are inhabiting? In the end it comes down to numbers and your local gaming community looks on the surface to be in the minority... And if I look out into my own reality they reflect these boards perfectly..
The US is a big place. And what "countrymen" do you refer to-- the ones on these boards? Of course most people on these boards will have the consensus opinion of these boards!
Nucflash wrote: Now using ordinary logic, your gaming area will at some point become effected by whats happening around it.. This means even if you have been spared thus far.. time will catch up to you.. Its just the nature of the beast... It can of course be stopped. But then GW has to take action now.. or in the end, your Island of GW gamers will get swallowed up by the larger community..
I don't think your understanding of the larger community is accurate.
Nucflash wrote: I understand that you know this and that is why you are fighting thooth and claw on these boards..
If I thought GW was doomed I would switch systems to Infinity right now. I don't, so I'm not. GW has by far the strongest tournament scene and largest number of players of any game in my area and nobody is even remotely close.
Nucflash wrote: But a better action would be to join the rest of us now and we can put pressure on GW today!. and not when its to late and the last bastion of GW gamers falls into the abyss and are lost forever... Because at this point all evidence points to this, everything from GWs stagnent sales(that they keep up by raising prices).. To idiotic decisions that brings them closer and closer to the precipice that will tip the scale towards their competitors and send them swirling down in a death spiral...
I'll be interested to see what this exchange looks like in hindsight in 2018 or so.
xraytango wrote: What is the PSC issue? Can you post up a link please. I know that they have a few different scales, but I thought they just produce figures, didn't know they had drama as well.
Two points, Kingsley, that I feel need to be mentioned (as I realize that you certainly won't be including them):
1. The current higher-ups at Battlefront are GW trained. Thus, it is not unexpected that they would respond to a problem (i.e., competition) in a manner that GW would.
2. That decision was reversed - Sinsynn doesn't mention it, but thanks to the vocal outcry from their online community (gee, isn't there a thread on that right now?), that number was decreased to 50% - a goal that is easily accomplished by using BF infantry (which are relatively on par with other metal 15mm WWII miniatures) with PSC vehicles, which are obviously cheaper.
I honestly don't see whats wrong with requiring a range of models to be used with a set of rules in order to receive tournament support from the company that makes them.
Simply put, that's taboo in Historicals. There has never really been a company that produces miniatures and rules and demanded that only their models be used in their events (even GW didn't do with with their Historical lines of rules, because they knew how stupid that would be).
GW didn't really ever have a wide selection of historical figures, unless you count the offerings from Foundry, and even then those were limited ranges, that other manufacturers did as well, better, or had other time-period appropriate armies.
WWII is far too ubiquitous to really exert control over which models are used, but for promotional purposes, which tournaments are, you would want your figures to be in the forefront of that use. So then it is a matter of not what models are used, but whose models are used.
Historicals have been rules or minis, very rarely have there been both from the same manufacturer.
It's all about promotion, and BF wanted to promote its products. Most gamers could care less though and it only would affect the tournament scene. Historical players are more concerned with correct kit and color, I should know I are one!
So I can see their purpose, especially as former GW employees running things, but it could have resulted in massive losses.
bkiker wrote: I hope I'm mistaken and have just stumbled into wrong threads and topics.
I'm not entirely sure what caused the culture of these boards to become so anti-GW, but to be honest I'm growing increasingly tired of it and am tempted to start posting on boards where people are a little more clear-headed.
The first reason is that the game rules are stupid and unbalanced, that was strike one for GW. The game is unplaybal as far as I'm concerned...
The second reason was them giving up trying to fix the rules and saying they suport "cinimatic gameplay", and stopped giving suport to competative gamplay.. That was Strike two..
The third reason was all the crap they made on a corporate level the last two years... We laugh our ass off at my local club at all the idiotic decisions they keep making.. That was the third and final strike..
That people keep defending them makes it all the more fun... haha
Not defending gw but I must inform you of solutions to you're strikes
Solution 1 to you're strike one: stop playing or play out dated editions
Solution 2 to you're strike two: See above solution.
[list]Solution 3 to you're strike three: Don't like what the company does okay so do what normal people do and stop buying their product.
Now I am sure you will agree those are proper solutions that you no doubt thought of already. Me on the other hand will just grin, promptly bend over and wait for GW to rape me again, let's face it I am addicted to 40k
I wasent really asking for solutions? I was informing Kingsley why the boards here might be a little negative towards GW.... I pointed out 3 things that I personaly think have contributed to the fact that Games Workshop do not see much play time in my local area, and why people are very negative in general towards their games...
Prices are not the main reason we stoped playing their game, the game is, you might want to try a few others yourself to be honest before you quote"bend over again" hehe, you might get surprised at how good the competion really is...
Ps I have stoped playing GW games a long time ago....
If I thought GW was doomed I would switch systems to Infinity right now. I don't, so I'm not. GW has by far the strongest tournament scene and largest number of players of any game in my area and nobody is even remotely close.
Nucflash wrote: But a better action would be to join the rest of us now and we can put pressure on GW today!. and not when its to late and the last bastion of GW gamers falls into the abyss and are lost forever... Because at this point all evidence points to this, everything from GWs stagnent sales(that they keep up by raising prices).. To idiotic decisions that brings them closer and closer to the precipice that will tip the scale towards their competitors and send them swirling down in a death spiral...
I'll be interested to see what this exchange looks like in hindsight in 2018 or so.
Lets hope for your sake that I'm worse at predicting outcomes for Table-top games then MMORPGs... I have been right 100% when it comes to video games, what would make it and what would Fail.. I would not have been this bold back in 2004, the Table-top scene was alot diffrent.. But now in the year 2013 things are looking very diffrent. The main problem GW is facing is regrowth. They have based their business model on getting new players (childrean) into the hobby. But this is not the 90s.. I find it very hard to see how they are going to maintain that model going forward. And as many of the veteran players have left them (and are not comming back).. Who will be playing their games in 2018?? not the kidds born 2000-2005, they will not be interested in Toy soldiers.. Unless they have parents who urge them into the hobby...
Nucflash wrote: I wasent really asking for solutions? I was informing Kingsley why the boards here might be a little negative towards GW.... I pointed out 3 things that I personaly think have contributed to the fact that Games Workshop do not see much play time in my local area, and why people are very negative in general towards their games...
Prices are not the main reason we stoped playing their game, the game is, you might want to try a few others yourself to be honest before you quote"bend over again" hehe, you might get surprised at how good the competion really is...
Please don't try and lump Dakka in with your views. Plenty of people gripe about GW here but still play their games. There's actually very few of you lot that come in here to gripe that have actually stopped playing their games entirely.
Nucflash wrote: Ps I have stoped playing GW games a long time ago....
Then surely there must be something in your life more important than moaning about something you don't have anything to do with anymore?
Nucflash wrote: Lets hope for your sake that I'm worse at predicting outcomes for Table-top games then MMORPGs... I have been right 100% when it comes to video games, what would make it and what would Fail.. I would not have been this bold back in 2004, the Table-top scene was alot diffrent.. But now in the year 2013 things are looking very diffrent. The main problem GW is facing is regrowth. They have based their business model on getting new players (childrean) into the hobby. But this is not the 90s.. I find it very hard to see how they are going to maintain that model going forward. And as many of the veteran players have left them (and are not comming back).. Who will be playing their games in 2018?? not the kidds born 2000-2005, they will not be interested in Toy soldiers.. Unless they have parents who urge them into the hobby...
Are you aware that people were literally saying the exact same thing back in '92?
Nucflash wrote: I wasent really asking for solutions? I was informing Kingsley why the boards here might be a little negative towards GW.... I pointed out 3 things that I personaly think have contributed to the fact that Games Workshop do not see much play time in my local area, and why people are very negative in general towards their games...
Prices are not the main reason we stoped playing their game, the game is, you might want to try a few others yourself to be honest before you quote"bend over again" hehe, you might get surprised at how good the competion really is...
Please don't try and lump Dakka in with your views. Plenty of people gripe about GW here but still play their games. There's actually very few of you lot that come in here to gripe that have actually stopped playing their games entirely.
Nucflash wrote: Ps I have stoped playing GW games a long time ago....
Then surely there must be something in your life more important than moaning about something you don't have anything to do with anymore?
Lets be clear This is Dakka General discussion.. this is not the GW40k/fantasy subforum.. Dakka also has warmachine forum on these boards if you have missed that? And yes I am very interested in how things are going for GW.. It is in my personal best interest that things go downhill for them.. Also if they shaped up and actually made a playabal game I might still consider comming back to play it (That they would change the rules and make the game fun for me and my buddies is a real long shoot though). But getting more deffecters to play other games with is an achievable goal.. and I will continue to work towards that goal..
If I whent into the 40k forums on this site and started pissing on the game your points would be valid.. now not so much...
Ex 40k playing Warmachine players are worse than ex smokers/drinkers/crack addicts combined in my experience.
I'm not sure if it's a desperate need to validate their choice, or just a moderate lack of class, but even amongst my friends who have made the leap they can't help but try and persuade me that 'their' game is 'better'.
My response is always the same, I have no issue with the gameplay, and I will look at starting a faction once PP start making minis that I don't consider fugly.
It's no surprise that some cant help but jump on the beat GW bandwagon, regardless of how justified it may or may not be.
Nucflash wrote: Lets hope for your sake that I'm worse at predicting outcomes for Table-top games then MMORPGs... I have been right 100% when it comes to video games, what would make it and what would Fail.. I would not have been this bold back in 2004, the Table-top scene was alot diffrent.. But now in the year 2013 things are looking very diffrent. The main problem GW is facing is regrowth. They have based their business model on getting new players (childrean) into the hobby. But this is not the 90s.. I find it very hard to see how they are going to maintain that model going forward. And as many of the veteran players have left them (and are not comming back).. Who will be playing their games in 2018?? not the kidds born 2000-2005, they will not be interested in Toy soldiers.. Unless they have parents who urge them into the hobby...
Are you aware that people were literally saying the exact same thing back in '92?
To be honest man they wernt I was there... 40k rouge trader came out in 1989.. or atleast we saw it for the first time around the 1990s.. and there was no other game around to play if you wanted to play Table top games(atleast not here in sweden, historical games have never had any following here).. So in our local shop there where Roleplaying games like WhitWolfs, vampire, D20 systems like D&D and we also had alot of lokaly produced Roleplaying games in swedish (the scene here in the 90s was large, much bigger then it is today. We had alot of fun with 40k and fantasy and there was no DOOM and Gloom.. GW also had alot of other cool games back then like space hulk, Blood Bowl and many others... Card games hadent really come into the market jet.. they got big a few years later... You have to understand we played the Zega and nintento 8bit systems and amiga and atari and commendore 64 games on the computer back then hehe.. It was a totaly diffrent world... It took over a year or more before a movie got over here after its première in the states.. we had no cellphones haha... hmm you cant compare the begining of the 90s with 2013 hahah .. you just cant sorry..
I'm Old and Im wise and I have been around for a long long time, Both in computer games and in Roleplaying and Table-top games.. and it has never been this bad.(from a gw perspective)
"BTW, I wonder what is going to happen to GW during the coming years. I know a LOT of people who were once Warhammer-addicts (including myself), but are turning away from GW en masse because they don't longer like the "improved" games such as WH40K, WFB or Space Marine. It seems GW is producing more and more stuff that should attract younger players (e.g. steam tanks, noise marines, childish magic etc...). And if so, where are all those younger players going to get the money to buy a lot of expensive miniatures?"
Nucflash wrote: Lets hope for your sake that I'm worse at predicting outcomes for Table-top games then MMORPGs... I have been right 100% when it comes to video games, what would make it and what would Fail.. I would not have been this bold back in 2004, the Table-top scene was alot diffrent.. But now in the year 2013 things are looking very diffrent. The main problem GW is facing is regrowth. They have based their business model on getting new players (childrean) into the hobby. But this is not the 90s.. I find it very hard to see how they are going to maintain that model going forward. And as many of the veteran players have left them (and are not comming back).. Who will be playing their games in 2018?? not the kidds born 2000-2005, they will not be interested in Toy soldiers.. Unless they have parents who urge them into the hobby...
Are you aware that people were literally saying the exact same thing back in '92?
Hmmm, really the problem is, that with the size, market share, and infrastructure that GW has we should be seeing them expand each year, but they simply are not doing that.
Instead of working the room they are a wall-flower ever shrinking into the darkest corner of the room.
They have no mass market game that introduces their IP to the people looking for a tabletop game. No Space Hulk, no Hero Quest. These were in non-gaming department stores years ago, albeit partly due to an ill-advised partnership with MB (see Hero Quest, Battlemasters, Space Crusade) and they do no sort of advertising campaigns for any products. They should have a print ad for each of their core products and a quarterly add for new releases. WotC does this and it increases brand awareness.
But Tom Kirby has stated that they do not want the masses to buy their products.
They continue to throw away money on retail locations.
Tom Kirby wants another 800 stores in the US.
Anniversary milestones for their products have passed.
There were no special events, promotions, or media interactions.
They even turned down the BBC for an interview.
The list is as long as I am tall of what sheer idiocy comes out of Nottingham.
azreal13 wrote: Ex 40k playing Warmachine players are worse than ex smokers/drinkers/crack addicts combined in my experience.
I'm not sure if it's a desperate need to validate their choice, or just a moderate lack of class, but even amongst my friends who have made the leap they can't help but try and persuade me that 'their' game is 'better'.
My response is always the same, I have no issue with the gameplay, and I will look at starting a faction once PP start making minis that I don't consider fugly.
It's no surprise that some cant help but jump on the beat GW bandwagon, regardless of how justified it may or may not be.
It is more like a religious experience... after years of fumbling around in the dark you suddenly see the light.. But I have picked up malifaux recently also and it is also really Fun to play.. The best thing about leaving GW has been that I am now willing to try alot of other games, and that keeps things fresh and fun...
Hope you can read this Azreal ho buddy ho pal.. but I guess you might still have me perma blocked
Nucflash wrote: Lets hope for your sake that I'm worse at predicting outcomes for Table-top games then MMORPGs... I have been right 100% when it comes to video games, what would make it and what would Fail.. I would not have been this bold back in 2004, the Table-top scene was alot diffrent.. But now in the year 2013 things are looking very diffrent. The main problem GW is facing is regrowth. They have based their business model on getting new players (childrean) into the hobby. But this is not the 90s.. I find it very hard to see how they are going to maintain that model going forward. And as many of the veteran players have left them (and are not comming back).. Who will be playing their games in 2018?? not the kidds born 2000-2005, they will not be interested in Toy soldiers.. Unless they have parents who urge them into the hobby...
Are you aware that people were literally saying the exact same thing back in '92?
Hmmm, really the problem is, that with the size, market share, and infrastructure that GW has we should be seeing them expand each year, but they simply are not doing that.
Instead of working the room they are a wall-flower ever shrinking into the darkest corner of the room.
They have no mass market game that introduces their IP to the people looking for a tabletop game. No Space Hulk, no Hero Quest. These were in non-gaming department stores years ago, albeit partly due to an ill-advised partnership with MB (see Hero Quest, Battlemasters, Space Crusade) and they do no sort of advertising campaigns for any products. They should have a print ad for each of their core products and a quarterly add for new releases. WotC does this and it increases brand awareness.
But Tom Kirby has stated that they do not want the masses to buy their products.
They continue to throw away money on retail locations.
Tom Kirby wants another 800 stores in the US.
Anniversary milestones for their products have passed.
There were no special events, promotions, or media interactions.
They even turned down the BBC for an interview.
The list is as long as I am tall of what sheer idiocy comes out of Nottingham.
Facts are that the times have slipped by the leadership of GW... I cant keep up with the kidds and im alot younger then Kirby and his lackeys.. They are Old and it is showing.. Also as I pointed out before 2013 cant be compared with the begining of the 90s.. for those of us that were there, the World was alot diffrent.. No Internet, no cell-phones... and there wasent much DOOM and GLOOM in the hobby.. we were all having to much fun playing "NEW and FUN games".. Atari, amiga grafics and concole games on the old Nintendo and Sega units were still light-years behind IRL Grafics hehe.. It was a totaly diffrent world...
I remember when GW said they would start shifting products over to plastics and pass the savings on to us.
That was in a White Dwarf somewhere around 1990 or 91.
So why does a ten man box cost nearly $40 US when the mold has been paid for times over since it was made. Economy of scale says I shouldn't be paying more than $15 or $20 for it, and that's being generous!
"BTW, I wonder what is going to happen to GW during the coming years. I know a LOT of people who were once Warhammer-addicts (including myself), but are turning away from GW en masse because they don't longer like the "improved" games such as WH40K, WFB or Space Marine. It seems GW is producing more and more stuff that should attract younger players (e.g. steam tanks, noise marines, childish magic etc...). And if so, where are all those younger players going to get the money to buy a lot of expensive miniatures?"
3 years after release and people are saying in 1992 that they do not Improve WH40k, called rouge trader back then... I would cheack my facts on that... First time I started to hear real complaints about GW was after the turn of the century. I know that you were to young to be around back then or you would not have posted such a quote, and I have seen you use the same quote before in other threads Kingsley, the exact same one. Find the person who made it please or back it up with more from the Usenet?? lol... hmm Or I call it bs, because most of the human population dident even have a internet conection back in 1992..
Because you have to undestand that those that even had an internet conection was on dail up modems... There was no Internet community... overall the gaming community was very possitive..
So you should listen to people that were actually alive back then instead of reusing and old quote you have found someplace over and over... There was NO OTHER GAME ON THE MARKET IN 1992(in the sci fi genre).. And there was no wide spread negativity about GW...
I think that there were other Sci-fi games back then, but nothing of any serious note.
The 90's were more still dominated by RPG's than wargames.
Other manufacturers saw what was coming, but had no means to compete with GW. Grenadier had a fantasy battle game as well as a sci-fi game, but they never took off and Grenadier shut down (though they had good minis, I think they just were at the end of their business' life-span).
TSR had Battlesystem for the AD&D line, but due to internal problems and other issues it never did what it could have done.
Byte wrote: I'm good with GW. Let the hate flow on the interwebs, no issue in my local game meta. I'm fortunate to have a solid 40k environment here is my area.
I'm not really hating on GW. What I am doing is saying this.. If they dont change they will be gone in a few years time.. And Kingsly said lets get back to this in 2018 and see how things are... I will take him and any of you up on that challenge... I say that if nothing changes GW will be gone or in steep decline by the year 2018...
I'm basing this off some simple facts..
Unless humanity goes into some Retro Renaissance, and people will suddenly abandon the technical wonders that we keep inventing, the regrowth of the hobby will keep on declining year after year.. Back in the day Toy stores were full of many diffrent kinds of toys.. these days they are shell of their former glory, kidds play on the computers and on consols these days.. there is no time for the types of toys we had when I was growing up.... Evolution will take its tole on this hobby as it has done with so many others, over the decades..
There will always be people playing Table top games, but GWs strategi has never been on customer retention...and with that strategi in mind they will not have enough older people advocating their game to their childrean... and the kidds who are 15-18 by the year 2018.. will have grown up in a totaly diffrent world then those of us that were born in the 70s,80s and the 90s... Things have really moved fast... much faster then in any other generation in human history... In the last 20 years we have made huge leaps forward... and we will probably make even faster progression in the comming years...
Byte wrote: I'm good with GW. Let the hate flow on the interwebs, no issue in my local game meta. I'm fortunate to have a solid 40k environment here is my area.
I'm not really hating on GW. What I am doing is saying this.. If they dont change they will be gone in a few years time.. And Kingsly said lets get back to this in 2018 and see how things are... I will take him and any of you up on that challenge... I say that if nothing changes GW will be gone or in steep decline by the year 2018...
I surely hope they get bought out by then so I can throw money at the new Corporation.
3 years after release and people are saying in 1992 that they do not Improve WH40k, called rouge trader back then... I would cheack my facts on that... First time I started to hear real complaints about GW was after the turn of the century. I know that you were to young to be around back then or you would not have posted such a quote, and I have seen you use the same quote before in other threads Kingsley, the exact same one. Find the person who made it please or back it up with more from the Usenet?? lol... hmm Or I call it bs, because most of the human population dident even have a internet conection back in 1992..
Because you have to undestand that those that even had an internet conection was on dail up modems... There was no Internet community... overall the gaming community was very possitive..
So you should listen to people that were actually alive back then instead of reusing and old quote you have found someplace over and over... There was NO OTHER GAME ON THE MARKET IN 1992(in the sci fi genre).. And there was no wide spread negativity about GW...
Hahaha, you really have no idea what things were like back then. All of usenet is public record.
While I wasn't involved in the Wargaming online community back then in the early 90s, I was all about Alt.Toys.Transformers and remember epic "Unicron vs Deathstar". We had our 14.4 modems and dialed up Free.nets and gophered our way from system to system to read and post to newsgroups. I remember the having to re-dial every 30 minutes and usually wait 20 minutes to get through the busy lines and once on, having to hop 2-3 systems before I could access the old newsgroups and then sit there and read them in a text-only screen. When that was done, I was then dialing in to Prodigy online to download my 6 pictures a day onto floppy disks and then doing TXT based MUD/MUSH for the night. The Internet was alive and well in 1992, as we online communities with discussion groups about every dumb topic possible.
I was just starting out in GW back in 1992, but I seriously doubt there was zero negativity back then. There is always negativity, and newsgroups were full of them. When Portent popped up, there was already epic wars way before that.
3 years after release and people are saying in 1992 that they do not Improve WH40k, called rouge trader back then... I would cheack my facts on that... First time I started to hear real complaints about GW was after the turn of the century. I know that you were to young to be around back then or you would not have posted such a quote, and I have seen you use the same quote before in other threads Kingsley, the exact same one. Find the person who made it please or back it up with more from the Usenet?? lol... hmm Or I call it bs, because most of the human population dident even have a internet conection back in 1992..
Because you have to undestand that those that even had an internet conection was on dail up modems... There was no Internet community... overall the gaming community was very possitive..
So you should listen to people that were actually alive back then instead of reusing and old quote you have found someplace over and over... There was NO OTHER GAME ON THE MARKET IN 1992(in the sci fi genre).. And there was no wide spread negativity about GW...
Hahaha, you really have no idea what things were like back then. All of usenet is public record.
While I wasn't involved in the Wargaming online community back then in the early 90s, I was all about Alt.Toys.Transformers and remember epic "Unicron vs Deathstar". We had our 14.4 modems and dialed up Free.nets and gophered our way from system to system to read and post to newsgroups. I remember the having to re-dial every 30 minutes and usually wait 20 minutes to get through the busy lines and once on, having to hop 2-3 systems before I could access the old newsgroups and then sit there and read them in a text-only screen. When that was done, I was then dialing in to Prodigy online to download my 6 pictures a day onto floppy disks and then doing TXT based MUD/MUSH for the night. The Internet was alive and well in 1992, as we online communities with discussion groups about every dumb topic possible.
I was just starting out in GW back in 1992, but I seriously doubt there was zero negativity back then. There is always negativity, and newsgroups were full of them. When Portent popped up, there was already epic wars way before that.
Dude I do not live in the states you have to undestand that we were years behind you back then.. As I said it could take over 2 years for a movie to even get over to pond so that we could watch it... Keeping this in mind you have to roll back to how it was in the states in the 1987 to get a an understanding of how thing were in Europe back then... Text based muds never made it big over here for example.. because by the time we all had internet conections over here it was the mid 90s... And yes there is always negativity about things.. But You cant compare negativity of the early 90s with what we are seeing today in 2013.. if you have lived a while.. Im guessing you are like me in your mid 30s or even pushing 40 you would undestand this.. but you flame me like a little kidd?? or do you not grasp the diffrence that existed betwen diffrent parts of the world back then?
And kingsley have been using that same quote for a while now... and it is not even that negative to be honest.. it reads more like someone reflecting over that people he knew that were fantatics of the hobby, dont really like the way the GW was moving into a more Futuristic setting... You have to understand that the person making this quote is probably older, around 25-30 would be my guess.. He has grown up on Historical games, so has his friends.. this new setting is alien to them.. that is why he comes of as negative...
I'm also on my way out of the hobby.. I'm way to old to really have time to play Table-top games these days.. Most of my friends are slowly playing less and less that is the natural order of things.. But what people are whining about today is not a new setting or more kiddy friendly models.. It runs much deeper then that these days.. And there is much less Regrowth.. There are alot more things these days that will pull the younger generation away from table-top gaming then what we had in the 1990s... This combination.. Vets quiting(getting old) less new blood coming into the hobby, is the reason I think that in a few years GW will really be struggling to get anyone to play their game... If you dont belive me that is your choise.. I still thinkI will be right in the end.. only time will tell..
Dude I do not live in the states you have to undestand that we were years behind you back then.. As I said it could take over 2 years for a movie to even get over to pond so that we could watch it... Keeping this in mind you have to roll back to how it was in the states in the 1987 to get a an understanding of how thing were in Europe back then... Text based muds never made it big over here for example.. because by the time we all had internet connections over here it was the mid 90s...
Even BBSs were pretty widespread 1990 and before. Hell, A Kid in my middle school had a dedicated phoneline and modem and ran one out of his house. Every night, the BBS would be down for a few hours to connect to a freenet to exchange emails and download newsgroups. It gave users of the BBS the ability to communicate and read stuff without needing an internet connection. I spent 7th and 8th grade in a wheelchair, and I spent a ton of time online from 1990-1996.
I didn't get involved in the 'online' community for GW until around 1998 when Portent.net popped up, and half the people there were from previous newsgroups and there were long histories even then.
If someone wants to Snopes that quote, I am sure it can be done simply because almost the entirety of the old newsgroups are still around, but don't discount the existance of the online community back then. It was a real thing, even back then.
Dude I do not live in the states you have to undestand that we were years behind you back then.. As I said it could take over 2 years for a movie to even get over to pond so that we could watch it... Keeping this in mind you have to roll back to how it was in the states in the 1987 to get a an understanding of how thing were in Europe back then... Text based muds never made it big over here for example.. because by the time we all had internet connections over here it was the mid 90s...
Even BBSs were pretty widespread 1990 and before. Hell, A Kid in my middle school had a dedicated phoneline and modem and ran one out of his house. Every night, the BBS would be down for a few hours to connect to a freenet to exchange emails and download newsgroups. It gave users of the BBS the ability to communicate and read stuff without needing an internet connection. I spent 7th and 8th grade in a wheelchair, and I spent a ton of time online from 1990-1996.
I didn't get involved in the 'online' community for GW until around 1998 when Portent.net popped up, and half the people there were from previous newsgroups and there were long histories even then.
If someone wants to Snopes that quote, I am sure it can be done simply because almost the entirety of the old newsgroups are still around, but don't discount the existance of the online community back then. It was a real thing, even back then.
I did not say there wasent a community back then... I'm saying that the community can't be compared to the internet of 2013.. I'm also saying that the world back then was a very diffrent place to live in. If I look at the kidds today they do not do the same things I did growing up.. this is natural, all generations progress and change with the times. But my point is GWs strategi for selling their product has not changed with the world around them.. They fought long and hard against computer games, they are draging their feat compared to others in the industry... Take a look at Wizzards of the cost, they did not hesitate putting magic on the internet for example.. They are still growing were GW has stagnated.. The conservative thinking of GW will be the end of them that is a fact.... With Kickstarter and the prices on 3d printers going down... they will soon find themselves outrun by the competition...
Automatically Appended Next Post: I also belive that Retail(stores that you go to for shoping) will change in the comming years... Back in the day we had many diffrent stores all privatly owned. But these days the big chaines have taken over, It dosen't mather what department store i go to these days.. they all have the same Retail chaines that sell the exact same product... When 3d printers become as common as a printer is today in every home (and yes it will happen, they are really cheap these days and they will only become cheaper).. we will see a drastic change in how retail stores operates... If GW do not want to end up like Kodac and the music industry which both have failed to keep up with the times.. they need to change gear and they need to do it now before it is to late for them...
Baldsmug wrote: I hate how GW forces me to buy their stuff, its ridiculous its like i have no choice.
oh wait... that didn't happen.
If you don't like the company or what they do don't buy their stuff and if you are SOOO righteous don't even buy it second hand like i know a lot of you haters like to brag about doing. No one is forcing you to play with these toys. You people are just ridiculous. Get over yourselves. If you want to hate a corporation why not focus on hating one that REALLY deserves it, like Monsanto, Pfizer, or one of those REAL evil corporations who really DO NOT give you a choice.
When prices or whatever have gotten too much for you, there will be many of us here telling you the exact same thing we are telling you now. Quote "those that stay on the longest are generally the most ignorant". i was among the first "whingers". yet the message us "whingers" never changes. in due time i have seen many such as yourself on dakka and other places who complain about someone airing their concerns regardless of validity of topic, yet soon after join the riff raff mob who your so staunch at judging. (don't be too harsh in your judgment. someday we'll welcome yo with open arms, and then you will sing our song)
Note: i predict there will be many such threads/post pertaining this topic as this fine example. with people amazed in either for or against (positive or negative) response and as to "why they drew that conclusion".
3 years after release and people are saying in 1992 that they do not Improve WH40k, called rouge trader back then... I would cheack my facts on that... First time I started to hear real complaints about GW was after the turn of the century. I know that you were to young to be around back then or you would not have posted such a quote, and I have seen you use the same quote before in other threads Kingsley, the exact same one. Find the person who made it please or back it up with more from the Usenet?? lol... hmm Or I call it bs, because most of the human population dident even have a internet conection back in 1992..
Because you have to undestand that those that even had an internet conection was on dail up modems... There was no Internet community... overall the gaming community was very possitive..
So you should listen to people that were actually alive back then instead of reusing and old quote you have found someplace over and over... There was NO OTHER GAME ON THE MARKET IN 1992(in the sci fi genre).. And there was no wide spread negativity about GW...
Hahaha, you really have no idea what things were like back then. All of usenet is public record.
While I wasn't involved in the Wargaming online community back then in the early 90s, I was all about Alt.Toys.Transformers and remember epic "Unicron vs Deathstar". We had our 14.4 modems and dialed up Free.nets and gophered our way from system to system to read and post to newsgroups. I remember the having to re-dial every 30 minutes and usually wait 20 minutes to get through the busy lines and once on, having to hop 2-3 systems before I could access the old newsgroups and then sit there and read them in a text-only screen. When that was done, I was then dialing in to Prodigy online to download my 6 pictures a day onto floppy disks and then doing TXT based MUD/MUSH for the night. The Internet was alive and well in 1992, as we online communities with discussion groups about every dumb topic possible.
I was just starting out in GW back in 1992, but I seriously doubt there was zero negativity back then. There is always negativity, and newsgroups were full of them. When Portent popped up, there was already epic wars way before that.
Dude I do not live in the states you have to undestand that we were years behind you back then.. As I said it could take over 2 years for a movie to even get over to pond so that we could watch it... Keeping this in mind you have to roll back to how it was in the states in the 1987 to get a an understanding of how thing were in Europe back then... Text based muds never made it big over here for example.. because by the time we all had internet conections over here it was the mid 90s... And yes there is always negativity about things.. But You cant compare negativity of the early 90s with what we are seeing today in 2013.. if you have lived a while.. Im guessing you are like me in your mid 30s or even pushing 40 you would undestand this.. but you flame me like a little kidd?? or do you not grasp the diffrence that existed betwen diffrent parts of the world back then?
And kingsley have been using that same quote for a while now... and it is not even that negative to be honest.. it reads more like someone reflecting over that people he knew that were fantatics of the hobby, dont really like the way the GW was moving into a more Futuristic setting... You have to understand that the person making this quote is probably older, around 25-30 would be my guess.. He has grown up on Historical games, so has his friends.. this new setting is alien to them.. that is why he comes of as negative...
I'm also on my way out of the hobby.. I'm way to old to really have time to play Table-top games these days.. Most of my friends are slowly playing less and less that is the natural order of things.. But what people are whining about today is not a new setting or more kiddy friendly models.. It runs much deeper then that these days.. And there is much less Regrowth.. There are alot more things these days that will pull the younger generation away from table-top gaming then what we had in the 1990s... This combination.. Vets quiting(getting old) less new blood coming into the hobby, is the reason I think that in a few years GW will really be struggling to get anyone to play their game... If you dont belive me that is your choise.. I still thinkI will be right in the end.. only time will tell..
You have drawn similar conclusion to i had 10 years ago. it'd be fair to say I'd expected it to happen sooner rather than later. however with current trends and styles of GW business model of late then it'd be only logical to see it happening. what window of time is anyones guess/bet. being also a veteran i also hold many similar concern for a hobby which i once loved. Are we investors:? indirectly yes, yes we are investors. without us, the consumer, then there'd be no outside ie official investors. ie without the consumer then GW wouldn't need to produce miniatures to sell a rules system etc. it'd be prudent to think otherwise.
GW relies on investors "consumer based and private". Investors only hold sway over financial "arm" of GW processes. it is the consumer who holds sway (leading direction) over production (if it is not well recieved, then it wont sell, or it will at a loss = squatting of a race or unit or something else).
Last thing to finish on (for me atleast. heres hoping) 2 main reasons people are leaving the hobby 1. GW's recent actions and descisions and 2. people growing older having better things to do (or have been priced out of the hobby. be warned the can of worms has been sprung) remember rule #1 folks
azreal13 wrote: Comparing other system's pricing is a fallacy, firstly because as the market leader, it's GW's pricing which dictates what the competition will charge.
Oh wow! So it is now GWs fault that Warmachine miniatures are so expensive! This is really something special.
-Clear-cut scams like "limited edition" codex's that aren't just overpriced, they're actual literal scams that seek to steal your money unfairly
Willingly paying for worthless limited edition tag is not stealing. If people are stupid enough to pay, GW would be idiots if they wouldn't take this free money.
I certainly don't think that GW is perfect, far from it. It just seems to me that people's reactions are totally out of proportion, and totally disconnected from the reality of how big companies generally behave. Most things many here see as a horrible outrage are mildly annoying at most to me.
In response to the pricing, you can generally thank GW for the high prices. They are (currently) one of (if not) the largest companies in the miniatures industry. If we are willing to pay X dollars for a product then they are going to charge X dollars for said product. Competing companies are going to set prices at the same or a similar level. Why would Privateer Press charge $20 for a model that all things held the same GW would charge $60? (Obviously they are different companies but for comparison sake I hope you understand).
I tried to find the business definition to help better explain what is going on, I think it has to do with "Market Leader" and "Price Setters / Price Takers" but I cannot recall completely.
GW's competition sets its prices similarly, even if they are a bit cheaper to draw in customers they will generally not be 'that' much cheaper, hence why GW's major competition is similarly priced.
The key, as noted previously in this thread, is the start up cost. While prices for kits and models between GW, PP, and Wyrd might be similar, it takes far less of an initial investment to play Malifaux or Warmachine/Hordes in comparison to GW's Warhammer and Warhammer 40k.
To address the original post, I agree with what you are getting at. Do I hate some of GW's policies? You bet your ass I do. Do I understand 'some' of their policies, sure (protecting brick and mortar stores I agree with to an extent, I like playing at local stores and not simply buying products at online stores and playing in my garage). However I do think they raise prices for no reason, they sometimes have no idea what the value of a kit should be (right now plastic broadsides are more expensive than Forge World Broadsides, go figure), they have no real market strategy or plan other than to let information leak and officially release stuff a week ahead of launch give or take (hence why they don't seem to give a crap how expensive it is to start the hobby nor do they make it really easy to start the hobby). Furthermore, people are gonna cry, no matter what. Remember finecast? Everyone cried over that, even I did, but I called customer service on the phone and cried and they sent me replacement models (and a new can of Purity Seal and replacement models for other issues as well). You get what you pay for, and GW (from my experience) has good customer service if you call them. Furthermore, if people have complaints they should voice them to GW via email or phone, even if you don't think it is worth your time just do it. From a business perspective if they hear the same complaints enough perhaps they will make a change or listen and I doubt they are surfing Dakka to hear any ranting voices.
Last thing to finish on (for me atleast. heres hoping) 2 main reasons people are leaving the hobby 1. GW's recent actions and descisions and 2. people growing older having better things to do (or have been priced out of the hobby. be warned the can of worms has been sprung) remember rule #1 folks
There are other reasons but those two are high in the list so I agree with the comment.
RatBot Beause GW would like to control the entire miniature wargames industry, including the second hand market, and is delusional enough to believe that it is both capable of doing so and within its rights to do it.
Thanks - Rationalization ticked
Now anyone want to have a go at why GW trying to restrict people selling their own property , and which GW has no legal basis in trying to restrict , how this is actually really a good thing ?
Because GW is under the impression that second-hand sales hurt their first-hand sales. They see everyone that buys their product from someone else as lost profit. They want their miniatures to only ever have one owner, a disposable product that is never resold once its bought.
GW needs to realize they are making a durable good, not a non-durable good. A product that actually has an indeterminant lifespan. A model bought today could easily still be usable in 50 years, or even 100 years.
infinite_array wrote: Two points, Kingsley, that I feel need to be mentioned (as I realize that you certainly won't be including them):
1. The current higher-ups at Battlefront are GW trained. Thus, it is not unexpected that they would respond to a problem (i.e., competition) in a manner that GW would.
2. That decision was reversed - Sinsynn doesn't mention it, but thanks to the vocal outcry from their online community (gee, isn't there a thread on that right now?), that number was decreased to 50% - a goal that is easily accomplished by using BF infantry (which are relatively on par with other metal 15mm WWII miniatures) with PSC vehicles, which are obviously cheaper.
The difference is solely positional. If Battlefront were in a position where they could ignore the outcry and just say "nope, not allowed" (as GW is), they would.
You have absolutely no way of knowing this, please stop making stuff up and passing it on as if it were facts.
Kingsley wrote: The difference is solely positional. If Battlefront were in a position where they could ignore the outcry and just say "nope, not allowed" (as GW is), they would.
You have absolutely no way of knowing this, please stop making stuff up and passing it on as if it were facts.
Aside from the fact that they actually tried to do it, research into the influence of situational factors on human psychology would indicate this is nearly certainly the case.
I think the difference is however that Battlefront came out of it a little better because they acquiesced to popular fan opinion. They have a forum, facebook page, amongst other connections through convention attendance, and there is at least the impression that they care what their fanbase thinks. I agree that it is more of a pressing issue for FoW, because it would be very easy for fans to jump en-masse to a different historical ruleset and pick up their shermans and panzers from any number of other manufacturers. But, Battlefront could have pressed ahead with it, lost a few customers because of it, and helped nurture the embers of discontent among the player base who stayed with the game.
There is also the situation that, if indeed GW are saying "we don't have to listen to our fans, we are making too much money to care" (and there is no indication that this is actually the case - they might genuinely think they are doing everything to the best of their ability) there is the case that they are not operating in a market place of 1, and each 'unpopular' policy change costs them some market share. Even if those are only a handful of people each time, those totals add up. And, considering the growth of the wargaming industry in general over the past few years, and GW's static position within that, we could already be seeing that in action.
Kingsley wrote: The difference is solely positional. If Battlefront were in a position where they could ignore the outcry and just say "nope, not allowed" (as GW is), they would.
You have absolutely no way of knowing this, please stop making stuff up and passing it on as if it were facts.
Aside from the fact that they actually tried to do it, research into the influence of situational factors on human psychology would indicate this is nearly certainly the case.
Pacific wrote:I think the difference is however that Battlefront came out of it a little better because they acquiesced to popular fan opinion. They have a forum, facebook page, amongst other connections through convention attendance, and there is at least the impression that they care what their fanbase thinks. I agree that it is more of a pressing issue for FoW, because it would be very easy for fans to jump en-masse to a different historical ruleset and pick up their shermans and panzers from any number of other manufacturers. But, Battlefront could have pressed ahead with it, lost a few customers because of it, and helped nurture the embers of discontent among the player base who stayed with the game.
This^^
Yes, BF tried to do it and then listened to the feedback from their customers and actually changed their mind!
Human psychology has absolutely nothing to do with it and your argument that "research into the influence of situational factors on human psychology would indicate this is nearly certainly the case" is a whole lot of words used to say absolutely nothing! Companies generally listen to feedback from their customers and use that feedback to help them guide their future decisions, this is what BF has done in this instance and you have ZERO evidence that they will change their behaviour in the future.
Comparing both companies and stating that BF would behave like GW if the roles were somewhat closer is another example of your disassemble of facts to try and white knight GW's actions in the face of overwhelming evidence to the contrary... Please stop it its getting tiresome.
PhantomViper wrote: Human psychology has absolutely nothing to do with it and your argument that "research into the influence of situational factors on human psychology would indicate this is nearly certainly the case" is a whole lot of words used to say absolutely nothing! Companies generally listen to feedback from their customers and use that feedback to help them guide their future decisions, this is what BF has done in this instance and you have ZERO evidence that they will change their behaviour in the future.
Excuse me? One of the primary messages of social psychology is that individual factors generally matter less than situational ones. This is 101-level stuff.
Grot 6 wrote: The hate flows when GW screws up, just as the praise comes when they do well.
The door swings both ways.
Pahahaha!! Oh, you're serious? So, when was the last time you heard of someone praising GW for, for example, the plastic Nurgle Champion? It's an amazing model, but outside of a few " that's really nice" posts in the thread where it was announced, i cant remember it being mentioned since.
Conversely, when was the last time you heard of someone criticising GW for a model that was released a while ago that people still refer to by a stupid nickname? "the Pumbagor" "goldswords" etc?
There is a huge disparity between the amount that GW are criticised for getting something wrong, and the amount they are praised for getting it very right, and to argue otherwise is ridiculous.
The door really doesn't swing both ways.
What, you mean apart from on half a dozen high-profile blogs, everyone who's ever written or read a thread about INQ28/Necromunda including on this very forum, and several youtubers? Yep, can't think of anyone who's praised GW for the Nurgle champ. I've also never seen big threads focused around the conversion of other plastic characters GW have put out, like that "Pimp my wizard" thing that didn't happen. I must also have imagined the near-universal praise the company was given when they revamped the Dark Eldar line.
Anyway, sarcasm aside, you're also being disingenuous by trying to cast critique of GW as being nothing more than unreasonable and trite remarks on subjective aesthetics, when in reality most of the issues people discuss relate to the company's business strategy, pricing, and legal shenanigans.
PhantomViper wrote: Human psychology has absolutely nothing to do with it and your argument that "research into the influence of situational factors on human psychology would indicate this is nearly certainly the case" is a whole lot of words used to say absolutely nothing! Companies generally listen to feedback from their customers and use that feedback to help them guide their future decisions, this is what BF has done in this instance and you have ZERO evidence that they will change their behaviour in the future.
Excuse me? One of the primary messages of social psychology is that individual factors generally matter less than situational ones. This is 101-level stuff.
I once again applaud your initiative and apparent aptitude at dissembling! Bravo good sir.
Pahahaha!! Oh, you're serious? So, when was the last time you heard of someone praising GW for, for example, the plastic Nurgle Champion? It's an amazing model, but outside of a few " that's really nice" posts in the thread where it was announced, i cant remember it being mentioned since.
I really, really want to respond to this, because one of the most regularly critical posters of GW, HBMC, routinely praises that entire batch of plastic characters, as do a sizeable number of other posters, and request more, much more like it, in terms of their sculpts, price and adaptability to kitbashing. The individual model not specifically, but that wave of plastic characters, absolutely and regularly praised on dakka as a great thing.
Conversely, when was the last time you heard of someone criticising GW for a model that was released a while ago that people still refer to by a stupid nickname? "the Pumbagor" "goldswords" etc?
Two different things here, the pumbagor was ridiculed for being a poor sculpt (and it really is just awful) from a company that charges premium and claims to make 'the best model soldiers in the world' and the 'goldswords' were criticized as part of an ongoing trend to massively mark up certain plastic units along a 'rarity in game' pricing system that lead to a fairly cheap elite unit costing the bloody earth.
There is a huge disparity between the amount that GW are criticised for getting something wrong, and the amount they are praised for getting it very right, and to argue otherwise is ridiculous. The door really doesn't swing both ways.
I worked in resolving corporate complaints for many years. Complaints outnumber compliments in business by hundreds to one, know why? Because if you're doing things right, you're doing things per customer expectation and you should take retained business and brand loyalty as your marks of success. Human nature is to remain silent when content and share your ire when not. You want to see praise, look up every time (and it happens about once a couple of months) a 'what's your favorite miniature' thread crops up or 'hello, I've just come back to gaming after many years away because I saw the new X models and just had to pick some up', or the 'here's my entire space marine company I've been collecting and building and painstakingly individualizing over the last 10 years' in modelling and painting threads.
That is the love and attention and that's what's telling GW 'you're not all bad you know', or would be, if they were to treat the internet forums as what they are, a tool for bringing hobbyists together.
RatBot Beause GW would like to control the entire miniature wargames industry, including the second hand market, and is delusional enough to believe that it is both capable of doing so and within its rights to do it.
Thanks - Rationalization ticked
Now anyone want to have a go at why GW trying to restrict people selling their own property , and which GW has no legal basis in trying to restrict , how this is actually really a good thing ?
Because GW is under the impression that second-hand sales hurt their first-hand sales. They see everyone that buys their product from someone else as lost profit. They want their miniatures to only ever have one owner, a disposable product that is never resold once its bought.
GW needs to realize they are making a durable good, not a non-durable good. A product that actually has an indeterminant lifespan. A model bought today could easily still be usable in 50 years, or even 100 years.
Yep , thanks , I think you must detect I actually know the answer to this question . It was was more of an invitation for those with lets say GW tinted spectacles to try and justify this as a 'good thing' .
If GW did make moves to try and restrict people , you and I , from listing our own property on E-Bay , then I find this outrageous , and very revealing of GW Corporation mindset .
A mitigation for me of GW pricing is the resale value
RatBot Beause GW would like to control the entire miniature wargames industry, including the second hand market, and is delusional enough to believe that it is both capable of doing so and within its rights to do it.
Thanks - Rationalization ticked
Now anyone want to have a go at why GW trying to restrict people selling their own property , and which GW has no legal basis in trying to restrict , how this is actually really a good thing ?
Because GW is under the impression that second-hand sales hurt their first-hand sales. They see everyone that buys their product from someone else as lost profit. They want their miniatures to only ever have one owner, a disposable product that is never resold once its bought.
GW needs to realize they are making a durable good, not a non-durable good. A product that actually has an indeterminant lifespan. A model bought today could easily still be usable in 50 years, or even 100 years.
Yep , thanks , I think you must detect I actually know the answer to this question . It was was more of an invitation for those with lets say GW tinted spectacles to try and justify this as a 'good thing' .
If GW did make moves to try and restrict people , you and I , from listing our own property on E-Bay , then I find this outrageous , and very revealing of GW Corporation mindset .
A mitigation for me of GW pricing is the resale value
I agree with you here.
Luckily British trading laws do not allow anyone to start controlling the second-hand market. Re-sales can be limited on places like Amazon, but this is because Amazon is often used as a first-sale site, where companies sell their stuff.
Ebay, however is pure re-sale, and therefore cannot be bossed around by GW.
-Loki- wrote: Please don't try and lump Dakka in with your views. Plenty of people gripe about GW here but still play their games. There's actually very few of you lot that come in here to gripe that have actually stopped playing their games entirely.
Not playing games with your existing fig collections punishes the player much more than the company as opposed to not buying or selling those collections on the secondary market. I got fed up with GW a while back (see the sig) and simply haven't purchased any new armies while also actively paring down my fig collection to a few completely painted forces that require little to no additional effort or expenditure on my part. My GW purchase total for the past few years (which I do update including just last week for tau) consists mostly of codex purchases for existing armies and a few paint pots here and there but total less than what I'd usually buy from them in a quarter. The only models I've bought since making the decision have been a second hand gamesday fig and a plastic GK kit that I preordered prior to the decision along with the codex (no sense in screwing over the FLGS and backing out on a preorder). The GW corporate culture and decisions have stopped them from largely making almost any money off of me but I still like the universe/IP which is why I still occasionally play (despite my dislike of 6th edition "cinematic" gameplay). Am I indirectly supporting them by adding myself to the occasional pool of players at the FLGS which encourages others to buy their products? Yes, I suppose.. but that's not money out of my pocket and I'm a firm believer in each gamer (regardless of how stupid) being able to make their own recreation time purchase decisions.
I have to laugh because I think I forgot what the internet was.
that! I can play their silly game without giving them a dime and it's exactly what I am doing.
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