Is there even any real doubt at this point? I thought it was already at the point where their links have been so frequently hinted at that GW doesn't even have to state it out loud.
Most people say Thousand Sons gone loyal, others say merely descended from them, and despite the hints, they may still be wrong. The AdMech also say "Knowledge is power, guard it well.", that's a pretty big hint when compared to some things people are pulling out as 'proof their Primarch is Magnus', but that doesn't mean they have the gene-seed of Kelbor-Hal does it?
People used to say that they were descended from either Blood Angels or Raven Guard, and 10 years ago, people were adamant that it was either Sanguinius or Corax, they would argue for hours over these two.
Then again there's a rumour that Dorn is the Primarch.
My point is that there's lots of theories out there, and people will pick and choose which they believe, often ignoring other contradictory evidence, which is just as valid and substantial, purely because it doesn't fit in with their theory.
This is how it goes with most super duper 40k mystery dramas, everyone has their own suspect and they will not see any other argument.
For the record, I like to think they're created from stabilised Thousand Sons gene-seed, same as I believe that the Minotaurs are made from World Eater gene-seed, but these are purely my opinions, and I respect and understand that other people have their own theories with equally valid points dropped by GW to support their opinions.
Magnus makes a lot of sense because of the sheer number of Librarians the Blood Ravens seem to have - I believe, second only to the Grey Knights.
Corax is as much about name similarity than anything else - which seems to be frequent among successors of their respective loyalist legions. Same sort of logic for the Blood Angels connection.
Magnus the Red seem to be the lead candidate due to them being hated by the Space Wolves, their affinity with sossery, their reliance of Librarians and so forth.
In one of the DoW books, there was a blurb about a BR librarian being captured and brainwashed by Ahriman. He said some quotes that imply that there are connections to him/1ksons, and the Blood Ravens, which could explain the knowledge fetish as well as their Librarian population.
Kain wrote: Is there even any real doubt at this point? I thought it was already at the point where their links have been so frequently hinted at that GW doesn't even have to state it out loud.
Before my friend pointed it out, I would have said the Thousand Sons and Magnus. However, I am more inclined to believe it was in fact Lorgar and the Word Bearers at this point.
They were the original hints from Dark Crusade through Eliphas's taunting. But my friend, fellow user Azariah Kyras, noticed the following: The Blood Ravens defend Subsector Aurelia.
Lorgar was also known as the Aurelian. If anything, it at least explains Eliphas's taunts and his vested interest in the Blood Ravens, and it is a much stronger connection than a vague foreshadowing of "a Raven of Blood".
I don't get the Dorn theory either, don't all IF derived chapters hate psychers? Or is it just the BT? All I know I cant ally myself with an army that contains psychers on tabletop with my BTs to my infinite annoyance
Arcsquad12 wrote: Before my friend pointed it out, I would have said the Thousand Sons and Magnus. However, I am more inclined to believe it was in fact Lorgar and the Word Bearers at this point.
They were the original hints from Dark Crusade through Eliphas's taunting. But my friend, fellow user Azariah Kyras, noticed the following: The Blood Ravens defend Subsector Aurelia.
Lorgar was also known as the Aurelian. If anything, it at least explains Eliphas's taunts and his vested interest in the Blood Ravens, and it is a much stronger connection than a vague foreshadowing of "a Raven of Blood".
Eh...there are over 50 cities in the world named Alexandria, the vast majority of which were not founded by Alexander the Great or had anything to do with him. Just saying.
I personally believe the Blood Ravens are from rediscovered Thousand Sons geneseed, rather than from surviving loyalists. However I don't believe the Minotaurs are World Eaters, especially after reading Betrayer. Most of the World Eater's most common traits were due to the butcher's nails rather than something innate in the geneseed.
chapgrimaldus wrote: I don't get the Dorn theory either, don't all IF derived chapters hate psychers? Or is it just the BT? All I know I cant ally myself with an army that contains psychers on tabletop with my BTs to my infinite annoyance
I voted for Magnus the Red. Either they were founded using stabilized Thousand Sons gene-seed, or they were from loyalist Thousand Sons that joined up with the Ultramarines.
Regarding the latter; go read The Iron Within short story; Ultramarine champions are implied to have been gathering surviving loyalists from all traitor legions across the galaxy on Guilliman's orders. Probably because he needed their specific specialties for the Codex Astartes, Iron Warriors for siege and fortification, Thousand Sons for psionics, and so on.
thenoobbomb wrote: Probably Ultramarines like most chapters, they just have some more psykers. I'd find it odd that a chapter would be made from Traitor geneseed.
Voted Alpharius for the lulz though (ofcourse!). Everyone is him anyways.
Entire grand companies refused to follow Horus during the rebellion. There was probably plenty of loyal stock from the traitor legions. As a rule, it seems that more members of traitor legions remained loyal than members of loyal legions turned traitor. I wouldn't be surprised if the Blood Ravens are descended from an entire split off 1k sons Grand company.
thenoobbomb wrote: Probably Ultramarines like most chapters, they just have some more psykers. I'd find it odd that a chapter would be made from Traitor geneseed.
Voted Alpharius for the lulz though (ofcourse!). Everyone is him anyways.
Entire grand companies refused to follow Horus during the rebellion. There was probably plenty of loyal stock from the traitor legions. As a rule, it seems that more members of traitor legions remained loyal than members of loyal legions turned traitor. I wouldn't be surprised if the Blood Ravens are descended from an entire split off 1k sons Grand company.
The entire Fourth Fellowship and Thousand Sons Armada had been sent by Magnus away from Prospero prior to the Space Wolves arrival.
Spoiler:
According to Fourth Fellowship Captain Menes Kalliston to Kharn (who along with a large number of World Eaters were 'mopping up' the ruins of Tizca) in Rebirth, they were almost immediately attacked and scattered by an unknown enemy. The command element eventually made it back to Prospero, but were wiped out by the World Eaters. Captain Kalliston was taken prisoner, but Sergeant Revuel Arvida escaped. Captain Kalliston was later killed, but not before he renounced Magnus' actions at the end of the Burning of Prospero (revealed by Kharn as a form of mockery) as 'insane or incomprehensibly evil' and that he (Kalliston) could no longer remain loyal to him.
Arvida is later revealed to have never actually shared the Thousand Sons' complete and utter faith in Magnus, and views the destruction of Prospero as vindication, as Magnus ultimately failed to prevent it. He then vows to find and fight the true cause of the Thousand Sons' fall, and to not rest until everything that could help him was in his grasp. He then sets out to find the other survivors of the Fourth Fellowship (at best a few companies, and at worst, himself alone), knowing as "...only a Corvidae could know...that death would not to find him on Prospero..." saying "Knowledge is Power" as he leaves the ruins with flames illuminating the raven head of the Corvidae on a shoulder guard.
thenoobbomb wrote: Probably Ultramarines like most chapters, they just have some more psykers. I'd find it odd that a chapter would be made from Traitor geneseed.
Voted Alpharius for the lulz though (ofcourse!). Everyone is him anyways.
Entire grand companies refused to follow Horus during the rebellion. There was probably plenty of loyal stock from the traitor legions. As a rule, it seems that more members of traitor legions remained loyal than members of loyal legions turned traitor. I wouldn't be surprised if the Blood Ravens are descended from an entire split off 1k sons Grand company.
The entire Fourth Fellowship and Thousand Sons Armada had been sent by Magnus away from Prospero prior to the Space Wolves arrival.
Spoiler:
According to Fourth Fellowship Captain Menes Kalliston to Kharn (who along with a large number of World Eaters were 'mopping up' the ruins of Tizca) in Rebirth, they were almost immediately attacked and scattered by an unknown enemy. The command element eventually made it back to Prospero, but were wiped out by the World Eaters. Captain Kalliston was taken prisoner, but Sergeant Revuel Arvida escaped. Captain Kalliston was later killed, but not before he renounced Magnus' actions at the end of the Burning of Prospero (revealed by Kharn as a form of mockery) as 'insane or incomprehensibly evil' and that he (Kalliston) could no longer remain loyal to him.
Arvida is later revealed to have never actually shared the Thousand Sons' complete and utter faith in Magnus, and views the destruction of Prospero as vindication, as Magnus ultimately failed to prevent it. He then vows to find and fight the true cause of the Thousand Sons' fall, and to not rest until everything that could help him was in his grasp. He then sets out to find the other survivors of the Fourth Fellowship (at best a few companies, and at worst, himself alone), knowing as "...only a Corvidae could know...that death would not to find him on Prospero..." saying "Knowledge is Power" as he leaves the ruins with flames illuminating the raven head of the Corvidae on a shoulder guard.
It seems that the evidence is almost completely overwhelmingly in favor of "they're 1k son descendants" given that we even have a split off group of the Thousand Sons for them to be descended from.
I dont know much about the Blood Ravens other than what I have learned from the games but they seem very similar to the Thousand Sons in the way they collect artefacts and knowledge so I vote for Magnus The Red.
thenoobbomb wrote: Probably Ultramarines like most chapters, they just have some more psykers. I'd find it odd that a chapter would be made from Traitor geneseed.
Voted Alpharius for the lulz though (ofcourse!). Everyone is him anyways.
Entire grand companies refused to follow Horus during the rebellion. There was probably plenty of loyal stock from the traitor legions. As a rule, it seems that more members of traitor legions remained loyal than members of loyal legions turned traitor. I wouldn't be surprised if the Blood Ravens are descended from an entire split off 1k sons Grand company.
The entire Fourth Fellowship and Thousand Sons Armada had been sent by Magnus away from Prospero prior to the Space Wolves arrival.
Spoiler:
According to Fourth Fellowship Captain Menes Kalliston to Kharn (who along with a large number of World Eaters were 'mopping up' the ruins of Tizca) in Rebirth, they were almost immediately attacked and scattered by an unknown enemy. The command element eventually made it back to Prospero, but were wiped out by the World Eaters. Captain Kalliston was taken prisoner, but Sergeant Revuel Arvida escaped. Captain Kalliston was later killed, but not before he renounced Magnus' actions at the end of the Burning of Prospero (revealed by Kharn as a form of mockery) as 'insane or incomprehensibly evil' and that he (Kalliston) could no longer remain loyal to him.
Arvida is later revealed to have never actually shared the Thousand Sons' complete and utter faith in Magnus, and views the destruction of Prospero as vindication, as Magnus ultimately failed to prevent it. He then vows to find and fight the true cause of the Thousand Sons' fall, and to not rest until everything that could help him was in his grasp. He then sets out to find the other survivors of the Fourth Fellowship (at best a few companies, and at worst, himself alone), knowing as "...only a Corvidae could know...that death would not to find him on Prospero..." saying "Knowledge is Power" as he leaves the ruins with flames illuminating the raven head of the Corvidae on a shoulder guard.
It seems that the evidence is almost completely overwhelmingly in favor of "they're 1k son descendants" given that we even have a split off group of the Thousand Sons for them to be descended from.
We're never to get confirmation though; GW aside, at least one major author, ADB, hates the idea for some reason.
thenoobbomb wrote: Probably Ultramarines like most chapters, they just have some more psykers. I'd find it odd that a chapter would be made from Traitor geneseed.
Voted Alpharius for the lulz though (ofcourse!). Everyone is him anyways.
Entire grand companies refused to follow Horus during the rebellion. There was probably plenty of loyal stock from the traitor legions. As a rule, it seems that more members of traitor legions remained loyal than members of loyal legions turned traitor. I wouldn't be surprised if the Blood Ravens are descended from an entire split off 1k sons Grand company.
The entire Fourth Fellowship and Thousand Sons Armada had been sent by Magnus away from Prospero prior to the Space Wolves arrival.
Spoiler:
According to Fourth Fellowship Captain Menes Kalliston to Kharn (who along with a large number of World Eaters were 'mopping up' the ruins of Tizca) in Rebirth, they were almost immediately attacked and scattered by an unknown enemy. The command element eventually made it back to Prospero, but were wiped out by the World Eaters. Captain Kalliston was taken prisoner, but Sergeant Revuel Arvida escaped. Captain Kalliston was later killed, but not before he renounced Magnus' actions at the end of the Burning of Prospero (revealed by Kharn as a form of mockery) as 'insane or incomprehensibly evil' and that he (Kalliston) could no longer remain loyal to him.
Arvida is later revealed to have never actually shared the Thousand Sons' complete and utter faith in Magnus, and views the destruction of Prospero as vindication, as Magnus ultimately failed to prevent it. He then vows to find and fight the true cause of the Thousand Sons' fall, and to not rest until everything that could help him was in his grasp. He then sets out to find the other survivors of the Fourth Fellowship (at best a few companies, and at worst, himself alone), knowing as "...only a Corvidae could know...that death would not to find him on Prospero..." saying "Knowledge is Power" as he leaves the ruins with flames illuminating the raven head of the Corvidae on a shoulder guard.
It seems that the evidence is almost completely overwhelmingly in favor of "they're 1k son descendants" given that we even have a split off group of the Thousand Sons for them to be descended from.
We're never to get confirmation though; GW aside, at least one major author, ADB, hates the idea for some reason.
If he wants to fly in the face of direct evidence that's his right. I mean, there are people who still think that special relativity must be wrong. They're stupid, but they have a right to be stupid.
thenoobbomb wrote: Probably Ultramarines like most chapters, they just have some more psykers. I'd find it odd that a chapter would be made from Traitor geneseed.
Voted Alpharius for the lulz though (ofcourse!). Everyone is him anyways.
Entire grand companies refused to follow Horus during the rebellion. There was probably plenty of loyal stock from the traitor legions. As a rule, it seems that more members of traitor legions remained loyal than members of loyal legions turned traitor. I wouldn't be surprised if the Blood Ravens are descended from an entire split off 1k sons Grand company.
The entire Fourth Fellowship and Thousand Sons Armada had been sent by Magnus away from Prospero prior to the Space Wolves arrival.
Spoiler:
According to Fourth Fellowship Captain Menes Kalliston to Kharn (who along with a large number of World Eaters were 'mopping up' the ruins of Tizca) in Rebirth, they were almost immediately attacked and scattered by an unknown enemy. The command element eventually made it back to Prospero, but were wiped out by the World Eaters. Captain Kalliston was taken prisoner, but Sergeant Revuel Arvida escaped. Captain Kalliston was later killed, but not before he renounced Magnus' actions at the end of the Burning of Prospero (revealed by Kharn as a form of mockery) as 'insane or incomprehensibly evil' and that he (Kalliston) could no longer remain loyal to him.
Arvida is later revealed to have never actually shared the Thousand Sons' complete and utter faith in Magnus, and views the destruction of Prospero as vindication, as Magnus ultimately failed to prevent it. He then vows to find and fight the true cause of the Thousand Sons' fall, and to not rest until everything that could help him was in his grasp. He then sets out to find the other survivors of the Fourth Fellowship (at best a few companies, and at worst, himself alone), knowing as "...only a Corvidae could know...that death would not to find him on Prospero..." saying "Knowledge is Power" as he leaves the ruins with flames illuminating the raven head of the Corvidae on a shoulder guard.
It seems that the evidence is almost completely overwhelmingly in favor of "they're 1k son descendants" given that we even have a split off group of the Thousand Sons for them to be descended from.
We're never to get confirmation though; GW aside, at least one major author, ADB, hates the idea for some reason.
If he wants to fly in the face of direct evidence that's his right. I mean, there are people who still think that special relativity must be wrong. They're stupid, but they have a right to be stupid.
Lol
As I recall, he hates the idea because it sounds like a badly-written 'homebrew' army's fluff.
One of the reasons for the theory of Dorn being Primarch is that a couple of relics bearing his name turn up as wargear items in DoW2. I don't recall any other Primarch names on wargear either. To my knowledge, Black Templars are the only psyker-hating successor Chapter - certainly the Fists themselves have no trouble there.
The link to Blood Angels is in name only, and as a result *VERY* unlikely. What are the odds of being able to have no less than 7 games/expansions (8 if you count the brief cameo in Space Marine), one of which contains an Exterminatus(!), and there be absolutely no mention of the Black Rage? If they had cured the Flaw, I'm sure Dante, Seth and co would be on the case pronto
thenoobbomb wrote: Probably Ultramarines like most chapters, they just have some more psykers. I'd find it odd that a chapter would be made from Traitor geneseed.
Voted Alpharius for the lulz though (ofcourse!). Everyone is him anyways.
Entire grand companies refused to follow Horus during the rebellion. There was probably plenty of loyal stock from the traitor legions. As a rule, it seems that more members of traitor legions remained loyal than members of loyal legions turned traitor. I wouldn't be surprised if the Blood Ravens are descended from an entire split off 1k sons Grand company.
The entire Fourth Fellowship and Thousand Sons Armada had been sent by Magnus away from Prospero prior to the Space Wolves arrival.
Spoiler:
According to Fourth Fellowship Captain Menes Kalliston to Kharn (who along with a large number of World Eaters were 'mopping up' the ruins of Tizca) in Rebirth, they were almost immediately attacked and scattered by an unknown enemy. The command element eventually made it back to Prospero, but were wiped out by the World Eaters. Captain Kalliston was taken prisoner, but Sergeant Revuel Arvida escaped. Captain Kalliston was later killed, but not before he renounced Magnus' actions at the end of the Burning of Prospero (revealed by Kharn as a form of mockery) as 'insane or incomprehensibly evil' and that he (Kalliston) could no longer remain loyal to him.
Arvida is later revealed to have never actually shared the Thousand Sons' complete and utter faith in Magnus, and views the destruction of Prospero as vindication, as Magnus ultimately failed to prevent it. He then vows to find and fight the true cause of the Thousand Sons' fall, and to not rest until everything that could help him was in his grasp. He then sets out to find the other survivors of the Fourth Fellowship (at best a few companies, and at worst, himself alone), knowing as "...only a Corvidae could know...that death would not to find him on Prospero..." saying "Knowledge is Power" as he leaves the ruins with flames illuminating the raven head of the Corvidae on a shoulder guard.
It seems that the evidence is almost completely overwhelmingly in favor of "they're 1k son descendants" given that we even have a split off group of the Thousand Sons for them to be descended from.
We're never to get confirmation though; GW aside, at least one major author, ADB, hates the idea for some reason.
If he wants to fly in the face of direct evidence that's his right. I mean, there are people who still think that special relativity must be wrong. They're stupid, but they have a right to be stupid.
Lol
As I recall, he hates the idea because it sounds like a badly-written 'homebrew' army's fluff.
And what other non founding chapter has extremely stellar fluff, hmm? The Minotaurs with their personalityless Black Ops antics? The Auroras who can literally be summed up as "We have more tanks!" The Novamarines who are pretty much just "the Ultramarines with a weird paint scheme." Compared to other non founding Chapters, the Blood Ravens are extremely well developed and characterized, even better than some of the founding chapters even! (Iron hands get no love).
And originally I would have made the joke at Ancient Alien theorist's expense but I wasn't sure if anyone bought into that.
thenoobbomb wrote: Probably Ultramarines like most chapters, they just have some more psykers. I'd find it odd that a chapter would be made from Traitor geneseed.
Voted Alpharius for the lulz though (ofcourse!). Everyone is him anyways.
Entire grand companies refused to follow Horus during the rebellion. There was probably plenty of loyal stock from the traitor legions. As a rule, it seems that more members of traitor legions remained loyal than members of loyal legions turned traitor. I wouldn't be surprised if the Blood Ravens are descended from an entire split off 1k sons Grand company.
The entire Fourth Fellowship and Thousand Sons Armada had been sent by Magnus away from Prospero prior to the Space Wolves arrival.
Spoiler:
According to Fourth Fellowship Captain Menes Kalliston to Kharn (who along with a large number of World Eaters were 'mopping up' the ruins of Tizca) in Rebirth, they were almost immediately attacked and scattered by an unknown enemy. The command element eventually made it back to Prospero, but were wiped out by the World Eaters. Captain Kalliston was taken prisoner, but Sergeant Revuel Arvida escaped. Captain Kalliston was later killed, but not before he renounced Magnus' actions at the end of the Burning of Prospero (revealed by Kharn as a form of mockery) as 'insane or incomprehensibly evil' and that he (Kalliston) could no longer remain loyal to him.
Arvida is later revealed to have never actually shared the Thousand Sons' complete and utter faith in Magnus, and views the destruction of Prospero as vindication, as Magnus ultimately failed to prevent it. He then vows to find and fight the true cause of the Thousand Sons' fall, and to not rest until everything that could help him was in his grasp. He then sets out to find the other survivors of the Fourth Fellowship (at best a few companies, and at worst, himself alone), knowing as "...only a Corvidae could know...that death would not to find him on Prospero..." saying "Knowledge is Power" as he leaves the ruins with flames illuminating the raven head of the Corvidae on a shoulder guard.
It seems that the evidence is almost completely overwhelmingly in favor of "they're 1k son descendants" given that we even have a split off group of the Thousand Sons for them to be descended from.
We're never to get confirmation though; GW aside, at least one major author, ADB, hates the idea for some reason.
If he wants to fly in the face of direct evidence that's his right. I mean, there are people who still think that special relativity must be wrong. They're stupid, but they have a right to be stupid.
Lol
As I recall, he hates the idea because it sounds like a badly-written 'homebrew' army's fluff.
And what other non founding chapter has extremely stellar fluff, hmm? The Minotaurs with their personalityless Black Ops antics? The Auroras who can literally be summed up as "We have more tanks!" The Novamarines who are pretty much just "the Ultramarines with a weird paint scheme." Compared to other non founding Chapters, the Blood Ravens are extremely well developed and characterized, even better than some of the founding chapters even! (Iron hands get no love).
Especially Gabrial Angelos and Davian Thule (or as 4chan calls the latter, Davian COOL). Sergeants Cyrus and Tarkus are also well-developed; and while the former appears to be an expy of Ultramarines Sergeant Telion, IMHO, Cyrus is more likable because instead of just reading about his exploits, we've actually seen him in action and interacted with him in the DoW II games.
Super Ready wrote: One of the reasons for the theory of Dorn being Primarch is that a couple of relics bearing his name turn up as wargear items in DoW2. I don't recall any other Primarch names on wargear either. To my knowledge, Black Templars are the only psyker-hating successor Chapter - certainly the Fists themselves have no trouble there.
The link to Blood Angels is in name only, and as a result *VERY* unlikely. What are the odds of being able to have no less than 7 games/expansions (8 if you count the brief cameo in Space Marine), one of which contains an Exterminatus(!), and there be absolutely no mention of the Black Rage? If they had cured the Flaw, I'm sure Dante, Seth and co would be on the case pronto
There were at least 6 different primarch names on gear in DOW2, including russ, gulliman, corax to name a few, only reason i remember is im playing through the campaign
From the novel A Thousand Sons: "The Ravens. I see them too. The lost sons and a Raven of blood. They cry out for salvation and knowledge, but it is denied!"
Nope- they are not from TS cause red boyz were COOL...*duck for cover*
Anyway there are "hints" , but there are "if's" also...
chapter founding (Pre-early M37 IIRC), flash change, and 4th fellowship (who have renounced Magnus) was attacked by WE upon returning to Prospero....
IMO they are like mssing primarchs....majority of people think that one legion is purged by Russ and other added to UM...it is hinted, but never comfirmed by GW....
DarthMarko wrote: Nope- they are not from TS cause red boyz were COOL...*duck for cover*
Anyway there are "hints" , but there are "if's" also...
chapter founding (Pre-early M37 IIRC), flash change, and 4th fellowship (who have renounced Magnus) was attacked by WE upon returning to Prospero....
IMO they are like mssing primarchs....majority of people think that one legion is purged by Russ and other added to UM...it is hinted, but never comfirmed by GW....
I'm having some difficulty deciphering what you're saying.
DarthMarko wrote: Nope- they are not from TS cause red boyz were COOL...*duck for cover*
Anyway there are "hints" , but there are "if's" also...
chapter founding (Pre-early M37 IIRC), flash change, and 4th fellowship (who have renounced Magnus) was attacked by WE upon returning to Prospero....
IMO they are like mssing primarchs....majority of people think that one legion is purged by Russ and other added to UM...it is hinted, but never comfirmed by GW....
I'm having some difficulty deciphering what you're saying.
I don't.
And Marko knows a lot about SW, and quite a lot about 1K sons too.
About a lot HH and 40K, actually!
There are a lot of people in here proving my point. Whilst there is evidence of it being Magnus, it's only hinted, there's clues for other lineage there too, people just see the stronger hints and decide these must be right. But as A D-B said on B&C, you can't take what a character in a story says as a fact, it's mostly in-universe speculation. And he knows what he's talking about, this is the guy who wrote the bit about the UM absorbing a lost legion, and he's confirmed that this is balls, it's in-universe speculation, as are most 'facts' about the Blood Ravens.
DarthMarko wrote: Nope- they are not from TS cause red boyz were COOL...*duck for cover*
Anyway there are "hints" , but there are "if's" also...
chapter founding (Pre-early M37 IIRC), flash change, and 4th fellowship (who have renounced Magnus) was attacked by WE upon returning to Prospero....
IMO they are like mssing primarchs....majority of people think that one legion is purged by Russ and other added to UM...it is hinted, but never comfirmed by GW....
I'm having some difficulty deciphering what you're saying.
Simply said there are questions like : what, why and how, which need to be answered...
BR don't have genetic flaw being the biggest....Well maybe "I" did advanced in bio-manipulaton
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Sir Samuel Buca wrote: There are a lot of people in here proving my point. Whilst there is evidence of it being Magnus, it's only hinted, there's clues for other lineage there too, people just see the stronger hints and decide these must be right. But as A D-B said on B&C, you can't take what a character in a story says as a fact, it's mostly in-universe speculation. And he knows what he's talking about, this is the guy who wrote the bit about the UM absorbing a lost legion, and he's confirmed that this is balls, it's in-universe speculation, as are most 'facts' about the Blood Ravens.
This was my point too....You can belive what you want to belive, but until GW goes out of hints - I will reserve my judgment....
Admiral Valerian wrote: I voted for Magnus the Red. Either they were founded using stabilized Thousand Sons gene-seed, or they were from loyalist Thousand Sons that joined up with the Ultramarines.
You know why this doesn't work, right? You've read "A Thousand Sons"? Not even counting the whole "Rubric of Ahriman" thing or how the after-effects of that would affect the Thousand Sons at large.
Spoiler:
More or less the only thing which was "stabilizing" the Thousand Sons gene-seed and preventing the flesh change was Tzeentch.
As I recall, he hates the idea because it sounds like a badly-written 'homebrew' army's fluff.
Yeah...no. If you've read his postings on the topic, it is less "badly-written homebrew army fluff" and more or less down to the fact that what started out with an Index Astartes article that gave no special mentions to the Thousand Sons (beyond a small tidbit pointing out that the Blood Ravens' behavior in warfareresembled that of the Thousand Sons--which in turn led to a bit about how the Blood Ravens should heed that example and how it turned out) has suddenly been flipped on its head by a single author (Graham McNeill) deciding that his speculation (the Thousand Sons are the primogenitor of the Blood Ravens) is the way it should be.
It has led to the whole "Ravens of Blood" prophecy and McNeill posting a few times in support of the theory without making mention of the fact that it only reads that way because he wanted it to read that way.
Even a cursory search for any number of the hundreds of topics on this very subject would show you why this topic is so blatantly ridiculous to deal with in a sensible manner.
Admiral Valerian wrote: I voted for Magnus the Red. Either they were founded using stabilized Thousand Sons gene-seed, or they were from loyalist Thousand Sons that joined up with the Ultramarines.
You know why this doesn't work, right? You've read "A Thousand Sons"? Not even counting the whole "Rubric of Ahriman" thing or how the after-effects of that would affect the Thousand Sons at large.
Spoiler:
More or less the only thing which was "stabilizing" the Thousand Sons gene-seed and preventing the flesh change was Tzeentch.
More like he was causing it to force Magnus to join him and later Ahriman to use the Rubric. He got what he wanted, so there's no further need for the flesh-change. The loyalists can do what they want, they don't even know who they are. How ironic, and they call themselves the 'Seekers of Truth'. At least that's how I see it. Assuming the opposite of what Tzeentch says as the truth is a good way to see through him...maybe.
As I recall, he hates the idea because it sounds like a badly-written 'homebrew' army's fluff.
Yeah...no. If you've read his postings on the topic, it is less "badly-written homebrew army fluff" and more or less down to the fact that what started out with an Index Astartes article that gave no special mentions to the Thousand Sons (beyond a small tidbit pointing out that the Blood Ravens' behavior in warfareresembled that of the Thousand Sons--which in turn led to a bit about how the Blood Ravens should heed that example and how it turned out) has suddenly been flipped on its head by a single author (Graham McNeill) deciding that his speculation (the Thousand Sons are the primogenitor of the Blood Ravens) is the way it should be.
It has led to the whole "Ravens of Blood" prophecy and McNeill posting a few times in support of the theory without making mention of the fact that it only reads that way because he wanted it to read that way.
Even a cursory search for any number of the hundreds of topics on this very subject would show you why this topic is so blatantly ridiculous to deal with in a sensible manner.
other added to UM...it is hinted, but never comfirmed by GW...
Actually is has been confirmed that that is not true
I like how people like to quote one book in which 2 marines are talking and one mentions a crazy rumor but they ignore the 3 stories where Dorn and Malcador discuss the fate of the lost and if they could use them in the current war or not.
I know there have been a convoy of dump trucks loaded with hints about the Blood Ravens having come from the Thousand Son's, but on a gene seed level I do not believe it.
As far as I know there have been no incidents of the dreaded flesh change amongst the Blood Ravens that was so rife and 'ruinious' with the Thousand Sons.
This alone is a huge reason to look elsewhere for their gene father.
For all we know it could be a situation like Loken and that would make them related to the Grey Knights or even Horus.
Many have suggested Rogal Dorn as a likely candidate as well.
Of course it could also be as mysterious as one of the missing primarchs like those that supposedly increased the ranks of the Ultramarines.
I find it interesting that the Blood Ravens scheme is close to that of the Son's of Orar, since they are mentioned as having taken the famous Captain Orar form the Ultramarines as their spiritual patriarch (not to be confused with Primarch) and yet the Ultramarines themselves have no records of these guys being sired from them. So maybe the Son's of Orar are from one of the missing primarchs and they and the Blood Ravens are gene related?
I am starting to lean towards an undiscovered primarch, thinking about it, no one just plum forgets who their "daddy" is, so for them to not know it would have to be either a cover up by the BR or their primarch was never found
Super Ready wrote: One of the reasons for the theory of Dorn being Primarch is that a couple of relics bearing his name turn up as wargear items in DoW2. I don't recall any other Primarch names on wargear either.
Zakiriel wrote: I know there have been a convoy of dump trucks loaded with hints about the Blood Ravens having come from the Thousand Son's, but on a gene seed level I do not believe it.
As far as I know there have been no incidents of the dreaded flesh change amongst the Blood Ravens that was so rife and 'ruinious' with the Thousand Sons.
This alone is a huge reason to look elsewhere for their gene father.
This assumes that the flesh change is a geneseed problem and not the hand of Tzeentch turning it on and off at his leisure.
Super Ready wrote: One of the reasons for the theory of Dorn being Primarch is that a couple of relics bearing his name turn up as wargear items in DoW2. I don't recall any other Primarch names on wargear either.
read the Entire page but the bottom is where its at.
The Blood Ravens just seem to have a certain sort of luck. Although they don't quite have the plot armor of the Ultramarines. I mean, they'd need to be lucky to wind up with all this nice wargear and come out of the whole mess Kyras started relatively intact.
Zakiriel wrote: I know there have been a convoy of dump trucks loaded with hints about the Blood Ravens having come from the Thousand Son's, but on a gene seed level I do not believe it.
As far as I know there have been no incidents of the dreaded flesh change amongst the Blood Ravens that was so rife and 'ruinious' with the Thousand Sons.
This alone is a huge reason to look elsewhere for their gene father.
This assumes that the flesh change is a geneseed problem and not the hand of Tzeentch turning it on and off at his leisure.
I agree. Personally, I believe Tzeentch was always behind the flesh-change, and not the gene-seed. He simply had no further use for it once Magnus and most of his legion had joined Chaos, and again when Ahriman unleashed the Rubric. Besides, haven't you realized how amused Tzeentch would be with knowledge-seekers having no knowledge of who they really are? Pretty good incentive for him not to invoke the flesh-change against Thousand Sons loyalists/Blood Ravens.
^Huh???
IIRC, flash change continued to hurt the TS even after they were in Tzeench's grasp....
Anyway it is even stated by that deamon FING (if you belive deamons )that the mutation was mearly postponed :
Spoiler:
“You were the one that helped me save my Legion,” said Magnus with a sinking heart.
“Save? No. I only postponed their doom,” said the shadow. “That boon is now ended.”
The story of the Thousand Sons is bound to the annals of Destiny, as weaved by the Architect of Fate itself.
Magnus always had only one eye, he always was the greatest Champion of Tzeentch, the Thousand Sons were granted the Flesh Change the moment Magnus sealed a pact with Tzeentch. And the Thousand Sons were always going to number a thousand.
Space time continuum transfunctioner then ....interesting.....this is a real defintion of paradox...
I always wondered, was this Tzeench who speaks with Magnus ?
Spoiler:
I once named myself Choronzon to you, the Dweller in the Abyss and the Daemon of Dispersion, but those are meaningless labels that mortals hang upon me, obsolete the moment they are uttered. I have existed since the beginning of time and will exist beyond the span of this universe. Names are irrelevant to me, for I am every name and none. In the inadequate language of your youngling species, you should call me a god.”
No. Whether IRL or in 40k, there is no such thing as 'fate', especially for Humans. Its one reason why Eldar hate Humans so much, and why Chaos both prizes and fears Humanity; Humans are Chaos made flesh. We change so quickly, so anarchic in nature, that we're like thorns, popping the 'bubbles' of fate the Farseers try to sculpt and the gods mold.
Void__Dragon wrote: Only the Necrons are unbound from the chains of destiny.
I didn't say Humans aren't unbound. More like Humans cause the chains to twist and coil in completely unexpected directions. In 40k at least; IRL, we are who we choose to be. Limitless potential.
Void__Dragon wrote: Only the Necrons are unbound from the chains of destiny.
IRL, we are who we choose to be. Limitless potential.
And we are sitting in front of monitors, discussing a game based fantasy stories....
Tzeentch can ramble as much as he wants, but he would so utterly shocked to discover that he is just a pawn, a pawn of several men sitting around a wooden table in a room in a building in the UK, drinking coffee and eating doughnuts, discussing what sounds good to print, what looks cool on the TT, and what makes the most money. Then he will scream and start babbling "I SEE THEM! THE FIRST, THE ONES WHO MADE US ALL! IT CANNOT BE BUT IT MUST BE! AND I SAW HIM..HE WHO WRITES OUR DOOM...MATT WARD..."
chapgrimaldus wrote: I am starting to lean towards an undiscovered primarch, thinking about it, no one just plum forgets who their "daddy" is, so for them to not know it would have to be either a cover up by the BR or their primarch was never found
Most people seem to believe it's the Thousand Sons. They are very magically attuned, they have the ire of the Space Wolves due to their sossery, they have lots of equipment looted from the battlefield which they name after other chapters heroes (I hope) and they seem to be alive by a miracle. And for the discounters, I mean the Thousand Sons were able to cure their affliction with psoriasis, the same goes for the Blood Ravens.
chapgrimaldus wrote: I am starting to lean towards an undiscovered primarch, thinking about it, no one just plum forgets who their "daddy" is, so for them to not know it would have to be either a cover up by the BR or their primarch was never found
They're not a Founding Legion.
They have no "Primarch" of their own.
Regardless of the founding whether 1st or 2nd has a primarch which their geenseed is derived from. That said maybe I should be even more clear on what I mean. They may have came from either Legion II or Legion XI neither of their primarchs were ever rediscovered.
chapgrimaldus wrote: I am starting to lean towards an undiscovered primarch, thinking about it, no one just plum forgets who their "daddy" is, so for them to not know it would have to be either a cover up by the BR or their primarch was never found
They're not a Founding Legion.
They have no "Primarch" of their own.
Just because they arnt a founding Legion doesnt mean they have a Primarch. A Primarch is simply who fathered the legion geneseed wise. ie. Nova Marines' Primarch is Guilliman
Arcsquad12 wrote: Before my friend pointed it out, I would have said the Thousand Sons and Magnus. However, I am more inclined to believe it was in fact Lorgar and the Word Bearers at this point.
They were the original hints from Dark Crusade through Eliphas's taunting. But my friend, fellow user Azariah Kyras, noticed the following: The Blood Ravens defend Subsector Aurelia.
Lorgar was also known as the Aurelian. If anything, it at least explains Eliphas's taunts and his vested interest in the Blood Ravens, and it is a much stronger connection than a vague foreshadowing of "a Raven of Blood".
True, but a lot of things in 40k that were named by or after people in M31 that subsequently turned traitor didn't get their names changed afterwards. In the inquisitor books most of the action takes place in a subsector that was named after the word bearer captain who helped conquer it during the great crusade.
The Lost Primarchs of the First Founding Space Marine Legions are the two Primarchs of the II and XI Legions who, for unknown reasons, were deliberately expunged from all known Imperial records and archives. Referred to as "the forgotten and the purged" it is known only that the missing Primarchs and their Legions are listed as having been "deleted from Imperial records." This formal censure and erasure from official records is known as an Edict of Obliteration,
This could be why they have no knowledge of their gene-daddy, if it turns out they are from either of those legions. Although GW''s official position on the II and XI Legions are so players have the capability of creating their own chapters and/or chaos warbands
Well, we can use a simple process of elimination to know who they aren't, at least.
They're not Raven Guard successors. They don't have alabaster skin, black hair, and black eyes.
They're not Salamanders successors. They're largely a bunch of white boys.
They're not Blood Angels successors. They lack the Flaw.
They're not Space Wolf successors. There are none.
They're not Imperial Fist successors. They'd presumably know if all of their super-special organs weren't working.
So. They're sons of El'Jonson, Guilliman, Khan, or Manus. Of those, Guilliman is statistically the most likely.
Seaward wrote: Well, we can use a simple process of elimination to know who they aren't, at least.
They're not Raven Guard successors. They don't have alabaster skin, black hair, and black eyes.
They're not Salamanders successors. They're largely a bunch of white boys.
They're not Blood Angels successors. They lack the Flaw.
They're not Space Wolf successors. There are none.
They're not Imperial Fist successors. They'd presumably know if all of their super-special organs weren't working.
So. They're sons of El'Jonson, Guilliman, Khan, or Manus. Of those, Guilliman is statistically the most likely.
Only traitors, and the Imperium doesn't forge chapters from traitor geneseed.
You would hope so wouldn't you
It could be Magnus, but I doubt it. Imagine the ramifications it would have if it was Magnus and somehow the Blood Ravens or the other Astartes Chapters found out, could the Imperium afford the risk of something like that happening.
So Chapters turn traitor and get declared traitoris, what happens if the Blood Ravens were tolerated by the High Lords? I could imagine that certain Chapters would not like the idea that a Chapter with Traitor geneseed is allowed to swan about in the Emperors name.
Ehm from what I have heard they were the founders but their geneseed was not used. I found the tale odd, but since I have little interest in the Grey Knights I haven't investigated too much. The geneseed used came directly from big daddy.
According to the Grey Knights codex their Geneseed was new and produced specifically for the founding of the Grey Knights, so that there would be no hint of corruption or anything, it would be brand spanking new and purer than pure. James Swallow said that Garro is not a Grey Knight also.
Garro and his kin might be the most loyal of the loyalists, and their own geneseed free from taint, but as many were drawn from the Gene stock of Traitor legions, it is tainted and sullied by this alone. You couldn't risk it in my opinion, who's to say that the tenth Legionary on from Garro is as resolute a character.
Sir Samuel Buca wrote: Most people say Thousand Sons gone loyal, others say merely descended from them, and despite the hints, they may still be wrong. The AdMech also say "Knowledge is power, guard it well.", that's a pretty big hint when compared to some things people are pulling out as 'proof their Primarch is Magnus', but that doesn't mean they have the gene-seed of Kelbor-Hal does it?
People used to say that they were descended from either Blood Angels or Raven Guard, and 10 years ago, people were adamant that it was either Sanguinius or Corax, they would argue for hours over these two.
Then again there's a rumour that Dorn is the Primarch.
My point is that there's lots of theories out there, and people will pick and choose which they believe, often ignoring other contradictory evidence, which is just as valid and substantial, purely because it doesn't fit in with their theory.
This is how it goes with most super duper 40k mystery dramas, everyone has their own suspect and they will not see any other argument.
For the record, I like to think they're created from stabilised Thousand Sons gene-seed, same as I believe that the Minotaurs are made from World Eater gene-seed, but these are purely my opinions, and I respect and understand that other people have their own theories with equally valid points dropped by GW to support their opinions.
I'd never heard that about the Minotaurs. It makes a crap ton of sense though. (It also makes the pill easier to swallow if there's two special Chapters.)
Jimsolo wrote: I'd never heard that about the Minotaurs. It makes a crap ton of sense though. (It also makes the pill easier to swallow if there's two special Chapters.)
Does it really make sense, though? Why would Mars and the HLoT choose traitor geneseed to found a chapter when they've got perfectly good stocks of non-traitor geneseed?
In terms of the Blood Ravens, I'd have to imagine they would be the result of a long-term machination of the Architect of Fate, and thus would have his full protection.
It's hard for a mortal to beat causality and destiny, which the tale of the Thousand Sons is wrapped up in.
So what do you think VD, you know more than me about the Thousand Sons. Is it possible the Thousand Sons geneseed are at work there with the Blood Ravens?
I'm must note however that I sort of from a personal viewpoint hope they are from Space Wolf-stock (very unlikely) and that the Minotaurs are an Ultramarine-descendant (more likely), if only due to the delicious irony that would spark up.
To be perfectly honest I've never really played Dawn of War, I know that the Blood Ravens share some surface qualities with the Thousand Sons, but I can't really say much.
Seaward wrote: Well, we can use a simple process of elimination to know who they aren't, at least.
They're not Raven Guard successors. They don't have alabaster skin, black hair, and black eyes.
They're not Salamanders successors. They're largely a bunch of white boys.
They're not Blood Angels successors. They lack the Flaw.
They're not Space Wolf successors. There are none.
They're not Imperial Fist successors. They'd presumably know if all of their super-special organs weren't working.
So. They're sons of El'Jonson, Guilliman, Khan, or Manus. Of those, Guilliman is statistically the most likely.
Also:
they can't be DA successors, they don't hunt the Fallens (all the DA successors do it);
They can't be WS successors, they hardly even have bikes;
Manus... all the Manus sons have some sort of affiliation with the Mechanicus, the BLUHD REHVENZ don't;
Guilliman... a chapter that don't follow the Codex Astartes at least a bit closesly? Every UM successor chapter follow quite strictly the Codex Astartes. The BLUHD REHVENZ have 200 Librarians, and their chapter master is the Librarian Chief (in a Codex - follower Chapter it is not allowed).
IT: yep, indeed they are master in the STHEEL RHEEN, which is a Codex Astartes manouver, but so the SW (please, don't bring Wolves hate in this topic, is an example!). And the Wolves don't follow the Codex at all.
I'd say 1k sons, I suspected it as soon as I read the IA that they had more than usual amount of librarians.
I haven't read the HH books on it so I cant comment on the 1ksons. I feel the HH series often limit the fluff in ways it need not be limited, the whole traitors who remained loyal formed the GK for an example takes away the chances for people who want to field loyal traitors. Fluff that limits the potential for people to make the armies they want is bad and fluff that extends the potential is good (atleast in that regard). after remember its just a setting, the stories aren't nearly good enough to hold as anything but that. sure I've only read the original trilogy (luna wolves) and the flight of eisenstein, but both failed pretty hard on character development.
DarthMarko wrote: LOL - well Kyras the Khorne's librarian...It does make sence as much as any other :-) Who voted that I'll buy him a drink....
Erm, Khorne is fine with Librarians, he's just not fond of sorcerers. He also doesn't care how the blood gets shed as long as it would be shed, and Kyras was looking up to drown the entire galaxy in it upon merging with the Daemon of the Maledictum.
DarthMarko wrote: LOL - well Kyras the Khorne's librarian...It does make sence as much as any other :-) Who voted that I'll buy him a drink....
Erm, Khorne is fine with Librarians, he's just not fond of sorcerers. He also doesn't care how the blood gets shed as long as it would be shed, and Kyras was looking up to drown the entire galaxy in it upon merging with the Daemon of the Maledictum.
I think you toched the hornets nest with this statment....
Err Khorne is fine with Librarians and not with sorceres? LOLWUT?
DarthMarko wrote: LOL - well Kyras the Khorne's librarian...It does make sence as much as any other :-) Who voted that I'll buy him a drink....
Erm, Khorne is fine with Librarians, he's just not fond of sorcerers. He also doesn't care how the blood gets shed as long as it would be shed, and Kyras was looking up to drown the entire galaxy in it upon merging with the Daemon of the Maledictum.
I think you toched the hornets nest with this statment....
Err Khorne is fine with Librarians and not with sorceres? LOLWUT?
There's actually a difference. Librarians use their own minds to access the warp, Sorcerers use rituals, artefacts and training to do so. Essentially one is using your own power, the other is kowtowing for favors.
Seaward wrote: Well, we can use a simple process of elimination to know who they aren't, at least.
They're not Raven Guard successors. They don't have alabaster skin, black hair, and black eyes.
They're not Salamanders successors. They're largely a bunch of white boys.
They're not Blood Angels successors. They lack the Flaw.
They're not Space Wolf successors. There are none.
They're not Imperial Fist successors. They'd presumably know if all of their super-special organs weren't working.
So. They're sons of El'Jonson, Guilliman, Khan, or Manus. Of those, Guilliman is statistically the most likely.
Isn't the Salamanders colour of skin brought about by both the geneseed and the radiation that bathes Nocturne?
Seaward wrote: Well, we can use a simple process of elimination to know who they aren't, at least.
They're not Raven Guard successors. They don't have alabaster skin, black hair, and black eyes.
They're not Salamanders successors. They're largely a bunch of white boys.
They're not Blood Angels successors. They lack the Flaw.
They're not Space Wolf successors. There are none.
They're not Imperial Fist successors. They'd presumably know if all of their super-special organs weren't working.
So. They're sons of El'Jonson, Guilliman, Khan, or Manus. Of those, Guilliman is statistically the most likely.
Isn't the Salamanders colour of skin brought about by both the geneseed and the radiation that bathes Nocturne?
Why is he eliminating Magnus when it's just one step short of confirmed?
Seaward wrote: Well, we can use a simple process of elimination to know who they aren't, at least.
They're not Raven Guard successors. They don't have alabaster skin, black hair, and black eyes.
They're not Salamanders successors. They're largely a bunch of white boys.
They're not Blood Angels successors. They lack the Flaw.
They're not Space Wolf successors. There are none.
They're not Imperial Fist successors. They'd presumably know if all of their super-special organs weren't working.
So. They're sons of El'Jonson, Guilliman, Khan, or Manus. Of those, Guilliman is statistically the most likely.
Also:
they can't be DA successors, they don't hunt the Fallens (all the DA successors do it);
They can't be WS successors, they hardly even have bikes;
Manus... all the Manus sons have some sort of affiliation with the Mechanicus, the BLUHD REHVENZ don't;
Guilliman... a chapter that don't follow the Codex Astartes at least a bit closesly? Every UM successor chapter follow quite strictly the Codex Astartes. The BLUHD REHVENZ have 200 Librarians, and their chapter master is the Librarian Chief (in a Codex - follower Chapter it is not allowed).
Magnus, boys, is the answer IMHO.
Actually, only 2nd founding Chapters are like that, and even then it's touch and go. Many UM successors don't follow the Codex too closely, not all DA successors are even aware of the Fallen, not every WS rides a bike, and not all biker chapters are WS descendant, and not all IH are going to be tech adepts.
Also, the RG and Salamanders successors don't all have light/dark skin, some have different skin shades due to local mutations and radiations.
Because a lot of people dont like loyalist segments of traitor legions for some reason. Its some sort of fluff elitism which is kind of weird since a lot of the fluff doesn't make sense in the first place.
TheDungen wrote: Because a lot of people dont like loyalist segments of traitor legions for some reason. Its some sort of fluff elitism which is kind of weird since a lot of the fluff doesn't make sense in the first place.
It's because it is a copout and reeks of fan fiction.
"Oh hey guys, my army is made up of loyalists from the Traitor Legions who did not get all traitory! And the Imperium totally knows and is okay with it!"
TheDungen wrote: Because a lot of people dont like loyalist segments of traitor legions for some reason. Its some sort of fluff elitism which is kind of weird since a lot of the fluff doesn't make sense in the first place.
It's because it is a copout and reeks of fan fiction.
"Oh hey guys, my army is made up of loyalists from the Traitor Legions who did not get all traitory! And the Imperium totally knows and is okay with it!"
Kain wrote: Why is he eliminating Magnus when it's just one step short of confirmed?
Because the Imperium does not create chapters from traitor geneseed.
Sir Samuel Buca wrote: Also, the RG and Salamanders successors don't all have light/dark skin, some have different skin shades due to local mutations and radiations.
I was under the impression that both of those traits were locked into the geneseed.
TheDungen wrote: Because a lot of people dont like loyalist segments of traitor legions for some reason. Its some sort of fluff elitism which is kind of weird since a lot of the fluff doesn't make sense in the first place.
It's because it is a copout and reeks of fan fiction.
"Oh hey guys, my army is made up of loyalists from the Traitor Legions who did not get all traitory! And the Imperium totally knows and is okay with it!"
I agree that it seems like a bit of a copout in some sense.
However, given that the fluff contains stories of whole companies that stayed loyal, it's not that far a stretch to say that those companies could have, or actually did, later become 2nd founding chapters.
Kain wrote: Erm, Khorne is fine with Librarians, he's just not fond of sorcerers. He also doesn't care how the blood gets shed as long as it would be shed, and Kyras was looking up to drown the entire galaxy in it upon merging with the Daemon of the Maledictum.
Actually, he dislikes both using those powers in battle.
Show me a single quote that says Khorne is fine with psykers.
He does, however, seem okay with his champions using sorcery outside of battle. Summoning Daemons and gak, and even Angron made use of rituals to prolong his foray into the Materium, so he could shed more blood.
Arcsquad12 wrote: Before my friend pointed it out, I would have said the Thousand Sons and Magnus. However, I am more inclined to believe it was in fact Lorgar and the Word Bearers at this point.
They were the original hints from Dark Crusade through Eliphas's taunting. But my friend, fellow user Azariah Kyras, noticed the following: The Blood Ravens defend Subsector Aurelia.
Lorgar was also known as the Aurelian. If anything, it at least explains Eliphas's taunts and his vested interest in the Blood Ravens, and it is a much stronger connection than a vague foreshadowing of "a Raven of Blood".
Kain wrote: Why is he eliminating Magnus when it's just one step short of confirmed?
Because the Imperium does not create chapters from traitor geneseed.
Sir Samuel Buca wrote: Also, the RG and Salamanders successors don't all have light/dark skin, some have different skin shades due to local mutations and radiations.
I was under the impression that both of those traits were locked into the geneseed.
Canonically at least an entire grand company of the 1k sons remained loyal and told Chaos to stuff it. That is an awful lot of pure geneseed.
Kain wrote: Erm, Khorne is fine with Librarians, he's just not fond of sorcerers. He also doesn't care how the blood gets shed as long as it would be shed, and Kyras was looking up to drown the entire galaxy in it upon merging with the Daemon of the Maledictum.
Actually, he dislikes both using those powers in battle.
Show me a single quote that says Khorne is fine with psykers.
He does, however, seem okay with his champions using sorcery outside of battle. Summoning Daemons and gak, and even Angron made use of rituals to prolong his foray into the Materium, so he could shed more blood.
PunkNeverDie110 wrote: IIRC the Imperium has a stock of gene-seed of every Legion, so they *could* have used it to make a chapter, you know, to see what could happen.
But they know what could happen. The chapter could turn traitor.
Put it this way. You're trying to go to the moon. You build two different types of rocket. They're identical in terms of performance - one has no advantage over the other. During testing, though, one doesn't just explode, it explodes so massively that it takes out most of the eastern United States. Worse yet, you're never going to find our for sure what caused it to explode, so no matter how you fix it up, you'll never know for sure that it won't explode again, and take out the western half of the US this time.
But they know what could happen. The chapter could turn traitor.
So what? Many chapters still turn traitor, and they have UM, RG, IH, WS, IF geneseed. The only successor Chapters who seems don't turn traitor are the BA successors.
SW don't have successors at all, Canis Helix instability.
So what? Many chapters still turn traitor, and they have UM, RG, IH, WS, IF geneseed. The only successor Chapters who seems don't turn traitor are the BA successors.
SW don't have successors at all, Canis Helix instability.
So, again, what's your point?
Entire chapters turning traitor is rather rare, and of far, far less magnitude than a Legion turning traitor. And a chapter going over to the dark side is not a "so what" matter to the Imperium.
What does using traitor geneseed give you that using loyalist geneseed doesn't? Nothing at all. It comes with a lot more risk. There's zero reason to do it, ultimately.
Void__Dragon wrote: Your analogy hinges on the fallacious assumption that the Imperium is practical.
It is, within its means.
There's simply no good reason for LOL SEKRIT TRAYTOR GENESEED CHAPTER than that it gives some fans a bit of chub.
You sure? I have to remind you that many, and I mean MANY information about what the Imperium do are so secret that even if you see them by error you'd get shot?
Wrong, 6th edition CSM Codex says that every century many more chapters turn traitors, but only the HLoT and the Inquisition know that.
Abyssal Crusade, do you know how many Chapters turned traitors?
Void__Dragon wrote: Well actually in the case of the Thousand Sons it gives you considerably more potential for psychic ability.
Really? I wasn't aware that geneseed determined whether or not someone was a psyker. I thought that was a birth mutation.
In fact, a geneseed is responsable of many traits in a Space Marine.
Skin color; eyes color; ferocity in combat; mutations (Black Rage/Red Thirst or Canis Helix) etc etc etc.
And be a Psyker is a mutation, so yeah the Magnus gene-seed could do that.
PunkNeverDie110 wrote: In fact, a geneseed is responsable of many traits in a Space Marine.
Skin color; eyes color; ferocity in combat; mutations (Black Rage/Red Thirst or Canis Helix) etc etc etc.
And be a Psyker is a mutation, so yeah the Magnus gene-seed could do that.
I doubt it.
Either way, it's of only incidental benefit to all but one chapter that's really big on the color grey and knighting around, and they definitely do not use traitor geneseed.
Either way, it's of only incidental benefit to all but one chapter that's really big on the color grey and knighting around, and they definitely do not use traitor geneseed.
GK 5th edition Codex hints that probably GK are made with the Emprah's geneseed, you know that powerful psyker?
Yeah.
No, again, psychic powers are mutations, like the flesh change of the Thousand Sons, the Canis Helix of the Wolves and the Black Rage/Red Thirst of the Blood Angels.
Again, the Bluhd Rhevenz aren't affected by the flesh change 'cause the Mechanicus (or was the Administrorum, I don't remember who controll the gene-seed stocks) could have found a solution. Simply that.
GK 5th edition Codex hints that probably GK are made with the Emprah's geneseed, you know that powerful psyker?
Yeah.
I believe the GK codex also states that one must be a psyker to begin with.
No, again, psychic powers are mutations, like the flesh change of the Thousand Sons, the Canis Helix of the Wolves and the Black Rage/Red Thirst of the Blood Angels.
Again, the Bluhd Rhevenz aren't affected by the flesh change 'cause the Mechanicus (or was the Administrorum, I don't remember who controll the gene-seed stocks) could have found a solution. Simply that.
They could have, sure. And Marneus Calgar could really be Alpharius. The simplest explanation, though, is that they simply used non-traitor geneseed, like with every other post-Heresy chapter in existence.
They could have, sure. And Marneus Calgar could really be Alpharius. The simplest explanation, though, is that they simply used non-traitor geneseed, like with every other post-Heresy chapter in existence.
Do you have a record of what gene-seed stock was used to create every chapter?
I don't think so.
I think that Minotaurs, for example, descend from the World Eaters. 'Cause they too fuckin' aggressive.
PunkNeverDie110 wrote: Do you have a record of what gene-seed stock was used to create every chapter?
I don't think so.
I think that Minotaurs, for example, descend from the World Eaters. 'Cause they too fuckin' aggressive.
The Carcharadons are known for their aggression as well, and they're a Raven Guard successor. The importance of geneseed in determining combat tactics and general disposition is considerably overstated - or at least inconsistent.
Something else to consider is that, given how even divergent loyalist chapters rely on a link back to their primarch, founding a chapter with traitor geneseed is really setting a chapter up for a mind screw. They have no primarch to revere and emulate, other chapters are going to shun them, etc. It creates more problems than it solves.
GK 5th edition Codex hints that probably GK are made with the Emprah's geneseed, you know that powerful psyker?
Yeah.
I believe the GK codex also states that one must be a psyker to begin with.
You are taken by the GKs when you're already an initiate in another chapters, so you could easily be a psyker thanks to the gene-seed of chapter X bein' mutated.
Again, what?
The only exception are Inquisitors, by the way psychic powers are a mutation still.
The Carcharadons are known for their aggression as well, and they're a Raven Guard successor. The importance of geneseed in determining combat tactics and general disposition is considerably overstated - or at least inconsistent.
Would you compare Space Sharks and Minotaurs, please.
Minotaurs are more aggressive than SS, and I mean MORE... and they also have more pre-Heresy technology (LR patterns, Dreadnought Contemptor etc etc etc)
IA: Codes Astartes wrote: The gene-seed of the Traitor Legions was placed under a time-locked stasis seal, although at the time many believed these dangerous gene stocks should be destroyed. By taking direct control of the genetic stocks, the Adepts on Earth could ultimately control the Space Marines. Now they alone had the power to destroy or create Space Marine armies at will.
IA: Rites of Initiation wrote: According to their charter, each Chapter is obliged to send 5% of its genetic material to the Adeptus Mechanicus on Mars. This 'tithe' has two purposes. Firstly, it enables the Adeptus Mechanicus to monitor the health of each Marine Chapter. Secondly, it enables the Adeptus Mechanicus to store gene-seed with a view to founding new Chapters.
Something else to consider is that, given how even divergent loyalist chapters rely on a link back to their primarch, founding a chapter with traitor geneseed is really setting a chapter up for a mind screw. They have no primarch to revere and emulate, other chapters are going to shun them, etc. It creates more problems than it solves.
Bluhd Rehvenz don't have this problem. Yeah, they seek for proves of their past, but they don't give a damn about what other chapters say.
Seaward wrote: Really? I wasn't aware that geneseed determined whether or not someone was a psyker. I thought that was a birth mutation.
Ob, so you believe the Thousand Sons just happened to always have been blessed with more psykers than is considered normal? Or them all spontaneously awakening their psychic powers at around the same time, despite never showing psychic potential before?
Seaward wrote: Really? I wasn't aware that geneseed determined whether or not someone was a psyker. I thought that was a birth mutation.
Ob, so you believe the Thousand Sons just happened to always have been blessed with more psykers than is considered normal? Or them all spontaneously awakening their psychic powers at around the same time, despite never showing psychic potential before?
Not all Thousand Sons were psykers. The majority weren't, in fact.
Given the homogeneous nature of Legion recruitment pre-Heresy, yes, I think it's perfectly plausible that Prospero simply produced more psykers than, say, Nostromo, in the same way that Cadia seems to produce a lot of individuals with violet eyes.
Seaward wrote: Really? I wasn't aware that geneseed determined whether or not someone was a psyker. I thought that was a birth mutation.
Ob, so you believe the Thousand Sons just happened to always have been blessed with more psykers than is considered normal? Or them all spontaneously awakening their psychic powers at around the same time, despite never showing psychic potential before?
Not all Thousand Sons were psykers. The majority weren't, in fact.
Given the homogeneous nature of Legion recruitment pre-Heresy, yes, I think it's perfectly plausible that Prospero simply produced more psykers than, say, Nostromo, in the same way that Cadia seems to produce a lot of individuals with violet eyes.
Wrong again. The 1K sons were ALL psykers, the only difference is that someone was a weaker psyker than someone else. The Rubric of Ahriman did, in fact, kill all the 1k sons who Psychic powers were too weak and buffed up the already powerful ones.
They were all psykers, only in differents degrees.
Besides all of the side effects of a gene seed are physical. Saying traitor geneseed makes traitors is kinda like saying a kid of a rapist is predisposition to rape or a murderer's kid is predispositioned to murder. Which we all know is utter BS and doesn't even hold up in court. If What you're implying is true why would the UM take loyal SMs from traitor legions into their ranks?
No, again, psychic powers are mutations, like the flesh change of the Thousand Sons, the Canis Helix of the Wolves and the Black Rage/Red Thirst of the Blood Angels.
Again, the Bluhd Rhevenz aren't affected by the flesh change 'cause the Mechanicus (or was the Administrorum, I don't remember who controll the gene-seed stocks) could have found a solution. Simply that.
Or Tzeentch decided he had nothing to gain by subjecting them to it.
No, again, psychic powers are mutations, like the flesh change of the Thousand Sons, the Canis Helix of the Wolves and the Black Rage/Red Thirst of the Blood Angels.
Again, the Bluhd Rhevenz aren't affected by the flesh change 'cause the Mechanicus (or was the Administrorum, I don't remember who controll the gene-seed stocks) could have found a solution. Simply that.
Or Tzeentch decided he had nothing to gain by subjecting them to it.
Nah, if it was Tzeentch's fault he'd still do it to the Bluhd Rehvenz, 'cause Tzeentch does it for the lulz.
No, again, psychic powers are mutations, like the flesh change of the Thousand Sons, the Canis Helix of the Wolves and the Black Rage/Red Thirst of the Blood Angels.
Again, the Bluhd Rhevenz aren't affected by the flesh change 'cause the Mechanicus (or was the Administrorum, I don't remember who controll the gene-seed stocks) could have found a solution. Simply that.
Or Tzeentch decided he had nothing to gain by subjecting them to it.
Nah, if it was Tzeentch's fault he'd still do it to the Bluhd Rehvenz, 'cause Tzeentch does it for the lulz.
I'm impressed; though I have to ask: what makes you think Tzeentch follows mortal logic and reasoning? For all we know, he spared the Blood Ravens for some other plan, just like he spared Magnus and the other Thousand Sons for a time.
I'm impressed; though I have to ask: what makes you think Tzeentch follows mortal logic and reasoning? For all we know, he spared the Blood Ravens for some other plan, just like he spared Magnus and the other Thousand Sons for a time.
Maybe 'cause no one knows what Tzeentch plots. Maybe he simply doesn't give a damn about Blood Ravens...
chapgrimaldus wrote: Besides all of the side effects of a gene seed are physical. Saying traitor geneseed makes traitors is kinda like saying a kid of a rapist is predisposition to rape or a murderer's kid is predispositioned to murder. Which we all know is utter BS and doesn't even hold up in court. If What you're implying is true why would the UM take loyal SMs from traitor legions into their ranks?
Sorry, it isn't just physical
IA: Codex Astartes wrote:The Horus Heresy had revealed weaknesses in the geneseed of several Space Marine Legions which had been exaggerated by the accelerated zygote harvesting techniques needed to keep the huge Space Marine Legions up to strength. The powers of Chaos exploited this growing physical and mental corruption to turn Horus’s troops against the Emperor.
This is also confirmed in the recent Imperial Armour book Betrayal.
An individual comment is made on the Word Bearers in their respective Index Astartes article
The gene-seed of the Word Bearers was originally thought to be pure, but events subsequent to the Horus Heresy revealed the weaknesses inherent in their genetic make-up.
PredaKhaine wrote: Wasn't there a mention in one of the heresy books about their faith possibly having a physical cause?
Possibly, the IA article goes on to say
The Space Marines of the Word Bearers have a marked tendency towards dogged, unquestioning belief and stubbornness that verges on insanity. Since the Heresy, their gene-seed has become corrupted beyond redemption and those negative traits have been magnified to hideous proportion
PunkNeverDie110 wrote: Do you have a record of what gene-seed stock was used to create every chapter?
I don't think so.
I think that Minotaurs, for example, descend from the World Eaters. 'Cause they too fuckin' aggressive.
The Carcharadons are known for their aggression as well, and they're a Raven Guard successor. The importance of geneseed in determining combat tactics and general disposition is considerably overstated - or at least inconsistent.
And there you answer your previous question about the skin mutations being locked in. Further mutation has given the Carcharadons grey, shark like skin.
It is a known fact though that certain gene seed gives certain traits. WE Legion were overly aggressive, even before the Butcher's Nails, WB had insane loyalty and fanaticism, though this was often misplaced, DG were very very resilient, RG and their successors are all great at stealth and hit and run, you get the idea.
As for why traitor gene seed would be getting used; after 10,000 years, there's going to be some degradation in even the purest gene seed, so why not try and have a crack at using the only 'pure' gene seed left, 9 samples that have been in stasis for 10,000 years, except for the occasional taking out for study of how to remove any flaws.
TheDungen wrote: Because a lot of people dont like loyalist segments of traitor legions for some reason. Its some sort of fluff elitism which is kind of weird since a lot of the fluff doesn't make sense in the first place.
It's because it is a copout and reeks of fan fiction.
"Oh hey guys, my army is made up of loyalists from the Traitor Legions who did not get all traitory! And the Imperium totally knows and is okay with it!"
fall from grace and redemption is classic fiction elements older than feudalism. But as I said i've you want to go all mad about it go ahead most fanfic I've read is still better than codex grey knights.
Also remove the whole imperium know about it and it becomes a lot better, and considering how long 10.000 years really is an how bad the imperium is at science i'm surprised they can tell space marine geneseed from human geneseed much less the different strains of space marine from each other.
Also, the whole we can tell all the primarch's geneseed apart, is an unnecessary piece of fluff, that adds nothing beyond itself and removes the ability for people t tell the stores they want to tell.
And there you answer your previous question about the skin mutations being locked in. Further mutation has given the Carcharadons grey, shark like skin.
It is a known fact though that certain gene seed gives certain traits. WE Legion were overly aggressive, even before the Butcher's Nails, WB had insane loyalty and fanaticism, though this was often misplaced, DG were very very resilient, RG and their successors are all great at stealth and hit and run, you get the idea.
As for why traitor gene seed would be getting used; after 10,000 years, there's going to be some degradation in even the purest gene seed, so why not try and have a crack at using the only 'pure' gene seed left, 9 samples that have been in stasis for 10,000 years, except for the occasional taking out for study of how to remove any flaws.
The Carcharadons are great at stealth and hit and run?
If geneseed's degrading, I'd have expected a mention of it somewhere.
I get that you guys like the idea of traitor legions having super-sekrit loyalist chapters - and I'm sure that wouldn't be done to death, as if it isn't already, with fan-made chapters if GW ever confirmed it, so that everybody could be all awesomely unique together - but there's nothing at all in the fluff to support it - aside from a line by one Black Library author, contradicted by another Black Library author - and there's no set of circumstances under which using traitor geneseed makes any kind of sense.
I get that you guys like the idea of traitor legions having super-sekrit loyalist chapters - and I'm sure that wouldn't be done to death, as if it isn't already, with fan-made chapters if GW ever confirmed it, so that everybody could be all awesomely unique together - but there's nothing at all in the fluff to support it - aside from a line by one Black Library author, contradicted by another Black Library author - and there's no set of circumstances under which using traitor geneseed makes any kind of sense.
Nope mate - it's just too much....
But you have to understand teenage fanboys
And there you answer your previous question about the skin mutations being locked in. Further mutation has given the Carcharadons grey, shark like skin.
It is a known fact though that certain gene seed gives certain traits. WE Legion were overly aggressive, even before the Butcher's Nails, WB had insane loyalty and fanaticism, though this was often misplaced, DG were very very resilient, RG and their successors are all great at stealth and hit and run, you get the idea.
As for why traitor gene seed would be getting used; after 10,000 years, there's going to be some degradation in even the purest gene seed, so why not try and have a crack at using the only 'pure' gene seed left, 9 samples that have been in stasis for 10,000 years, except for the occasional taking out for study of how to remove any flaws.
The Carcharadons are great at stealth and hit and run?
If geneseed's degrading, I'd have expected a mention of it somewhere.
I get that you guys like the idea of traitor legions having super-sekrit loyalist chapters - and I'm sure that wouldn't be done to death, as if it isn't already, with fan-made chapters if GW ever confirmed it, so that everybody could be all awesomely unique together - but there's nothing at all in the fluff to support it - aside from a line by one Black Library author, contradicted by another Black Library author - and there's no set of circumstances under which using traitor geneseed makes any kind of sense.
They don't try to be great at it, but they probably could be if they wanted to, since that was Corax's entire thing.
The mention of degrading gene seed is everywhere, every article about gene seed mentions that it's not as well kept or understood as it was 10,000 years ago and there are higher rejection rates.
I don't find the idea of some 'super-sekrit loyalist chapter' from traitors to be the greatest thing ever. I just think, that in a couple of circumstances, such as the Dark Founding, it could be a decent explanation without all the usual "Oh, Chaos did it!" excuses for why things go wrong. The Heresy was stated as showing previously unseen/ignored flaws in traitor gene seed and it was then locked in stasis for study. I think it makes sense to be used as an experiment and a couple of chapters have a few undesirable traits, rather than unknown mutations not known within any other chapter from the same gene line.
If you read my original post, you'll see the other theories I put forward as to who the Primarch may be, showing that I understand that it is not definitely Magnus, it could equally be ANYONE, I just like to think that the AdMech did a bad thing and used traitor gene seed once or twice.
Seaward wrote: I get that you guys like the idea of traitor legions having super-sekrit loyalist chapters - and I'm sure that wouldn't be done to death, as if it isn't already, with fan-made chapters if GW ever confirmed it, so that everybody could be all awesomely unique together - but there's nothing at all in the fluff to support it - aside from a line by one Black Library author, contradicted by another Black Library author - and there's no set of circumstances under which using traitor geneseed makes any kind of sense.
I don't give a feth who the Blood Ravens descend from.
But sorry bro, the Thousand Sons being their forebear is perfectly plausible considering the setting.
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Seaward wrote: Not all Thousand Sons were psykers. The majority weren't, in fact.
Given the homogeneous nature of Legion recruitment pre-Heresy, yes, I think it's perfectly plausible that Prospero simply produced more psykers than, say, Nostromo, in the same way that Cadia seems to produce a lot of individuals with violet eyes.
Yes yes, that is a very nice strawman you have there, but the sudden emergence of psychic powers among the Thousand Sons Legion occurred before Magnus was found, aka before they started recruiting from Prospero.
That rings a little false given the amount of posts you've made in this thread.
But sorry bro, the Thousand Sons being their forebear is perfectly plausible considering the setting.
Sure, provided you ignore quite a lot of the established background.
Yes yes, that is a very nice strawman you have there, but the sudden emergence of psychic powers among the Thousand Sons Legion occurred before Magnus was found, aka before they started recruiting from Prospero.
PunkNeverDie110 wrote: IIRC the Imperium has a stock of gene-seed of every Legion, so they *could* have used it to make a chapter, you know, to see what could happen.
But they know what could happen. The chapter could turn traitor.
That is so wrong in fly in face face of 40k.
If you are traitor has nothing to do with who your geneseed comes from. If your logic was true there would be no loyal Space Marines left because every single legion has had traitors inside of it. You may have heard of rogue chapters after all.
Also there were entire companies of loyalist in the traitor legions that refused to turn traitor on the Imperium.
What you said is that if you take a kidney implant from a mass murderer, you will also become a mass murderer also.
Can you name some verified loyalist traitor successors? There's...come to think of it, not a single one that GW has ever mentioned.
If you are traitor has nothing to do with who your geneseed comes from. If your logic was true there would be no loyal Space Marines left because every single legion has had traitors inside of it. You may have heard of rogue chapters after all.
We've covered this. Chapters go rogue - and their geneseed tithes probably aren't used to found any further successors after they do. A chapter going rogue, however, is considerably different and has much less wide-ranging impact than an entire legion turning traitor did, though, and the fact that they were founded separately from their "parent" chapter makes the situation considerably different than if they had all been founded at the same time, from the same stock, from the same planet, using the same training cadre, etc.
Also there were entire companies of loyalist in the traitor legions that refused to turn traitor on the Imperium.
I keep seeing this assertion, and I'm honestly not sure where it's from. The only ones I can think of were wiped out almost to a man on Isvtaan.
What you said is that if you take a kidney implant from a mass murderer, you will also become a mass murderer also.
Nope, that's not what I said, actually. What I said is that that's how the folks in the 41st millennium - who do not understand their own technology - would view it.
Can you name some verified loyalist traitor successors? There's...come to think of it, not a single one that GW has ever mentioned.
If you are traitor has nothing to do with who your geneseed comes from. If your logic was true there would be no loyal Space Marines left because every single legion has had traitors inside of it. You may have heard of rogue chapters after all.
We've covered this. Chapters go rogue - and their geneseed tithes probably aren't used to found any further successors after they do. A chapter going rogue, however, is considerably different and has much less wide-ranging impact than an entire legion turning traitor did, though, and the fact that they were founded separately from their "parent" chapter makes the situation considerably different than if they had all been founded at the same time, from the same stock, from the same planet, using the same training cadre, etc.
Also there were entire companies of loyalist in the traitor legions that refused to turn traitor on the Imperium.
I keep seeing this assertion, and I'm honestly not sure where it's from. The only ones I can think of were wiped out almost to a man on Isvtaan.
What you said is that if you take a kidney implant from a mass murderer, you will also become a mass murderer also.
Nope, that's not what I said, actually. What I said is that that's how the folks in the 41st millennium - who do not understand their own technology - would view it.
One of the fellowships of the thousand sons was not present at the burning of Prospero and when he returned to find the clusterfeth the space wolves caused, states the very motto of the Blood Ravens and remains loyal and true to the emperor in the short story rebirth.
Addittionally, when Thule discovered relics that revealed the origins of the Blood Ravens on Kronus, he was struck by shame and immediately destroyed them. If they were sons of Guilliman he wouldn't have done that, not in a chapter that rivals the Adeptus Mechanicus in it's OCD concerning lost relics. Clearly something about their founding was worth shame enough to risk the wrath of Azariah Kyras by breaking Chapter doctrine regarding lost knowledge.
Also, you are grossly misrepresenting the Adeptus Mechanicus to make your point. More recent novels show that they actually do understand their technology very well. They just have a diehard monopoly on knowledge and skill and an unfavorable view towards progress.
Kain wrote: Addittionally, when Thule discovered relics that revealed the origins of the Blood Ravens on Kronus, he was struck by shame and immediately destroyed them. If they were sons of Guilliman he wouldn't have done that, not in a chapter that rivals the Adeptus Mechanicus in it's OCD concerning lost relics.
That's a bold statement to make. For all we know, the origin story he found was simply that the Blood Ravens initially came from another system that had long since fallen under the sway of Chaos, or orks, or whatever else. That'd be pretty shameful.
Clearly something about their founding was worth shame enough to risk the wrath of Azariah Kyras by breaking Chapter doctrine regarding lost knowledge.
Yep. Concluding that we definitively know what that is, however, is absurd.
Also, you are grossly misrepresenting the Adeptus Mechanicus to make your point. More recent novels show that they actually do understand their technology very well. They just have a diehard monopoly on knowledge and skill and an unfavorable view towards progress.
Kain wrote: Addittionally, when Thule discovered relics that revealed the origins of the Blood Ravens on Kronus, he was struck by shame and immediately destroyed them. If they were sons of Guilliman he wouldn't have done that, not in a chapter that rivals the Adeptus Mechanicus in it's OCD concerning lost relics.
That's a bold statement to make. For all we know, the origin story he found was simply that the Blood Ravens initially came from another system that had long since fallen under the sway of Chaos, or orks, or whatever else. That'd be pretty shameful.
Clearly something about their founding was worth shame enough to risk the wrath of Azariah Kyras by breaking Chapter doctrine regarding lost knowledge.
Yep. Concluding that we definitively know what that is, however, is absurd.
Also, you are grossly misrepresenting the Adeptus Mechanicus to make your point. More recent novels show that they actually do understand their technology very well. They just have a diehard monopoly on knowledge and skill and an unfavorable view towards progress.
Progress like refining geneseed?
Considering all the other dirty secrets and blatantly stolen artifacts the Blood Ravens have stashed away, coming from a system that fell to an enemy wouldn't get a rise out of them. This chapter willfully fought with their fellow imperial forces not once, but twice and didn't so much as blink and released one of the most powerful bloodthirsters ever onto the Galaxy and their god damn chapter master turned into a fething DAEMON and was set on drowning the entire galaxy in it's own blood. Something that minor and unimportant would not be worth eternal shame.
As for your point on the Admech, they don't like to make progress at a rapid rate. They still do indeed make advancements and seem to lie most of the time they say something can't be produced anymore, such as with the Storm Eagle which has suspiciously become much more used by chapters that did some favors for the AdMech. There's likely many small refinements made over time, and you can bet that any Chapter in bed with the Fabricator General is going to be first in line to get them, and from what we've seen the Blood Ravens and the Adeptus Mechanicus are pretty close.
I also like how you ignored my first bit of evidence because it was inconvenient to you. Thanks for removing any doubt I had about you being a troll.
Kain wrote: I also like how you ignored my first bit of evidence because it was inconvenient to you. Thanks for removing any doubt I had about you being a troll.
You're giving yourself a little too much credit. It's not exactly a secret that some of the BL authors like the "Seriously, guys, they're the Thousand Sons!" line, and some do not. The ones who do tend to drop subtle-as-a-train wreck 'hints' as to their inclinations. If that's what you're basing your assumption on, you might want to look up some of the numerous contradictory outright assertions made in BL novels. I'd start with ADB's take on the Night Lords and Kurze versus whatever the name of the guy was who wrote the older stories.
Look, I get it. You like the totally unique and not-at-all fanwankish "loyalist traitor" thing that hasn't been done by a thousand thirteen year-olds writing up their first DIY chapter. Attempting to 'prove' it in a setting that, according to multiple sources within the company, has no set canon, though? That's just not going to happen.
Kain wrote: I also like how you ignored my first bit of evidence because it was inconvenient to you. Thanks for removing any doubt I had about you being a troll.
You're giving yourself a little too much credit. It's not exactly a secret that some of the BL authors like the "Seriously, guys, they're the Thousand Sons!" line, and some do not. The ones who do tend to drop subtle-as-a-train wreck 'hints' as to their inclinations. If that's what you're basing your assumption on, you might want to look up some of the numerous contradictory outright assertions made in BL novels. I'd start with ADB's take on the Night Lords and Kurze versus whatever the name of the guy was who wrote the older stories.
Well given this I think we're at an impasse and can say that the possibilities of either of us convincing each other is nil. Thus it would be prudent for us to cease this debate lest you once again go about ignoring parts of posts you feel are inconvenient to your point.
Can you name some verified loyalist traitor successors? There's...come to think of it, not a single one that GW has ever mentioned.
Astral Claws (the Red Corsairs) coming from UM geneseed, Imperial fist (Confirmed The Gildar Rift) Space Wolves (Gildar Rift) Raven Guard (UM novel) UM (UM novel) and thats just what I can think of off the top of my head. Where do you think renegade chapters come from? That they are successors from the traitor legions? They are chapters that either completely went rogue or that are made up of marines that went rogue.
We've covered this. Chapters go rogue - and their geneseed tithes probably aren't used to found any further successors after they do. A chapter going rogue, however, is considerably different and has much less wide-ranging impact than an entire legion turning traitor did, though, and the fact that they were founded separately from their "parent" chapter makes the situation considerably different than if they had all been founded at the same time, from the same stock, from the same planet, using the same training cadre, etc.
The only difference is that a legion is bigger. Otherwise it is no different.
Isstvan
Who do you think we are talking about? The point is that having the same geneseed as a traitor Primarch does not mean you would betray the Imperium. The soldiers on Isstvan proved it when they stood up to their own Primarchs. They are known as heroes of the Imperium.
You also realize the founding members of the Inquisition were ALL from the traitor legions?
Galdos wrote: Astral Claws (the Red Corsairs) coming from UM geneseed, Imperial fist (Confirmed The Gildar Rift) Space Wolves (Gildar Rift) Raven Guard (UM novel) UM (UM novel) and thats just what I can think of off the top of my head. Where do you think renegade chapters come from? That they are successors from the traitor legions? They are chapters that either completely went rogue or that are made up of marines that went rogue.
I meant loyalist chapters founded from traitor geneseed. GW has never confirmed one. Not one single example. We have countless examples of loyalist successors. Wonder why that is?
The only difference is that a legion is bigger. Otherwise it is no different.
A legion is representative whole of an entire geneseed pool. A chapter is not.
Who do you think we are talking about? The point is that having the same geneseed as a traitor Primarch does not mean you would betray the Imperium. The soldiers on Isstvan proved it when they stood up to their own Primarchs. They are known as heroes of the Imperium.
And they were a tiny minority compared to the overwhelming majority that did turn traitor.
You also realize the founding members of the Inquisition were ALL from the traitor legions?
No, I don't realize that, largely because it's not true. The Knights-Errant, predecessors of the Grey Knights, certainly were - at least, all the currently known ones, aside from, you know, those pesky Salamanders and Ultramarines - but no known members of the Inquisition were from traitor legions.
Nope, that's not what I said, actually. What I said is that that's how the folks in the 41st millennium - who do not understand their own technology - would view it.
This is incorrect. The Mechanicum does in fact understand its technology. They wrap it up in ritual and doctrine, but they are actually competent scientists and engineers for all that. They just disdain creativity and innovation.
Nope, that's not what I said, actually. What I said is that that's how the folks in the 41st millennium - who do not understand their own technology - would view it.
This is incorrect. The Mechanicum does in fact understand its technology. They wrap it up in ritual and doctrine, but they are actually competent scientists and engineers for all that. They just disdain creativity and innovation.
Actually, the Mechanicum don't understand everything. Sure, they're not stupid if we want to put it that way, but they don't comprend all the technology they have/used to have.
Fact: they can't make a Dreadnought Contemptor anymore, sure they lost the projects, but still.
Warp travel machine, they activate them with ritual 'cause they don't understand fully how it works.
And so on.
For the one who said the SW turned traitor, if he's talking about the 13th company they're simply "M.I.A.", but they're still loyal. I don't remember who said it, so I can't quote xD
@Seaward: Again, GW didn't say EVERYTHING. They give you hints. If you WANT disregard them, do it, but it's a fact that the Blood Ravens are probably a 1K Sons successor chapter.
I meant loyalist chapters founded from traitor geneseed. GW has never confirmed one. Not one single example. We have countless examples of loyalist successors. Wonder why that is?
Well because they dont want to use them. Of course. I was trying to argue something different. A fine line difference but I guess the point I was trying to make isnt important because the end is kind of what you are saying. THey dont want to use them.
The problem is that the Imperium doesnt actually know who's geneseed the Blood Raven's came from so it is possible they were using the 1000 Sons genes because they hid it. That is a huge part of their fluff, that they are hiding all that information.
A legion is representative whole of an entire geneseed pool. A chapter is not.
And they were a tiny minority compared to the overwhelming majority that did turn traitor.
So what? the very fact that you had loyalist legions that had traitors and traitor legions that had loyalist tells one thing. Geneseed has no impact at all on if you are loyal or traitor.
No, I don't realize that, largely because it's not true. The Knights-Errant, predecessors of the Grey Knights, certainly were - at least, all the currently known ones, aside from, you know, those pesky Salamanders and Ultramarines - but no known members of the Inquisition were from traitor legions.
Im sorry but you are wrong. The Inquisition, the child of Malcador had its first members Nathaniel Garro of the Death Guard, Loken and Iacton Qruze of the Luna Wolves, Varren of the World Eaters, and Rubio of the Ultarmarines
Sources are Flight of the Eisenstein, Garro: Legion of One, Garro: Sword of Truth
This is incorrect. The Mechanicum does in fact understand its technology. They wrap it up in ritual and doctrine, but they are actually competent scientists and engineers for all that. They just disdain creativity and innovation.
The mechanicus doesn't know any more science that the people who writes them which is nothing. Ritual is the antithesis of science science is about making things as simple as possible.
The day they quote some actual science even the most basic thing like newtons second law, I'll believe they know what they're doing but until then nope not a chance.
The mechanicus doesn't know any more science that the people who writes them which is nothing. Ritual is the antithesis of science science is about making things as simple as possible.
The day they quote some actual science even the most basic thing like newtons second law, I'll believe they know what they're doing but until then nope not a chance.
Mmm actually the mechanicum invented new things (Storm Shield weren't present during the Horus Heresy).
The problem is that for every new thing they make, they lose two.
This is incorrect. The Mechanicum does in fact understand its technology. They wrap it up in ritual and doctrine, but they are actually competent scientists and engineers for all that. They just disdain creativity and innovation.
The mechanicus doesn't know any more science that the people who writes them which is nothing. Ritual is the antithesis of science science is about making things as simple as possible.
The day they quote some actual science even the most basic thing like newtons second law, I'll believe they know what they're doing but until then nope not a chance.
Because a regurgitating crap from a physics textbook makes for such interesting novels!
Actually, whenever I see sound scientific theory in anything I read, it makes the whole novel more enjoyable to me. What can I say, I understand complicated maths, physics, chemistry and biology, and I enjoyed studying them for many years.
If a bit of science is injected, put into layman's terms so everyone can grasp it, it makes the future easier to comprehend.
Mmm actually the mechanicum invented new things (Storm Shield weren't present during the Horus Heresy).
The problem is that for every new thing they make, they lose two.
That's technology not science science will start regressing long before technology. Of course in the long run technological progress without scientific is impossible.
Because a regurgitating crap from a physics textbook makes for such interesting novels!
Science is a method a way of thinking, a breaking down of complex problems into their simplest parts to solve them. And yes this thinking works very well in fiction. And if you dont think real life physics can be used well in fiction go watch startrek or stargate, a lot of the science there is hard science. And guess what those IP's are a lot more successful than warhammer 40k.
So if they want their AM to be regressing that's their choice but if they want them to know how to do science they have to show us they can actually look on the world with scientists eyes. Otherwise its just another case of being told rather than being shown. Of course the same thing goes for the Tau.
the F=ma was just an example, I'd much rather see them making Bacon proud.
Sir Samuel Buca wrote: Actually, whenever I see sound scientific theory in anything I read, it makes the whole novel more enjoyable to me. What can I say, I understand complicated maths, physics, chemistry and biology, and I enjoyed studying them for many years.
If a bit of science is injected, put into layman's terms so everyone can grasp it, it makes the future easier to comprehend.
Yeah there is a consistency to that, sure sometimes you have to break reality to tell the story you want to tell but the closer to it you keep on peripheral things the easier it is to hold consistency across the board.
I love this forum, threads like these are exactly why I joined.
I have a personal far fetched theroy, and a more than likely reality theroy on who is the primarch of the blood ravens.
Firstly....I think they could be the decendants of a "lost" primarch.
I like to think that Magnus and the unknown primarch of the 11th legion were buddies. It is mentioned in the various HH novels that the pod to the 11th primarch was damaged directly before the scattering. Herego the 11th primarch was more suspeptiable to the warp during his transit.
Him and magus became good buddies since they both had one thing in common...mutation. In being good buddies both legions exchanged warriors to accompany each others legions during the great crusade. This is not uncommon from what we read about it happening with other legions.
I like to believe that the 11th primarch started relying heavily on bio/genetic research to cure his sons of mutation, and finally succeeded with a small number of his seed which eventually came to be the blood ravens. The Emperor was pissed off with him for messing with the recipe for the adaptus Astartes. decided to cull the primarch and his legion after the 11th refused to stop his research. In a brief gambit, sent his successfully repaired genesons to crusade with magnus in secret.
Eventually Magnus would earn the Ire of the emperor and knew that he himself was going to be possibly destroyed for his refusal to obide with the dicatates of the nikea decree. He hoped that perhaps the emperor would have mercy for him, but certainly not if the emperor found that he had been hiding an entire companies worth of 11th legion brothers within his own legion. Magnus then sent the 4th company away from propero with the 11th legion survivors to live on another day.
Eventually the 4th would be brought back into the fold of imperial SM chapters, with the secret intact. This would also go on to explain why the blood ravens are such a secretive chapter.
I know i have a flare for the dramatic.
More than likely they are decendants of Magnus, there are also a couple quotes from "Ahriman exile" that support this claim.
Usually when people come up with their beliefs on what the Blood Ravens or the lost legions are they fail to factor in a lot of evidence. Yours actually covers all the bases.
Usually when people come up with their beliefs on what the Blood Ravens or the lost legions are they fail to factor in a lot of evidence. Yours actually covers all the bases.
Thanks for your support!
I have a theroy on the second legion as well.
It is written that the two unknown legions are known as the "lost and the forgotten"
I think it may be possible that the second legions primarch was a Blank of unpresidented power. Along with his legion. After his discovery by the emperor the 2nd legion primarch went on to crusade for the emperor just as hard and successfully as any of his other brothers.
However the second Primarch never got along well with any of his brothers. With their yet undiscovered latent psyhic powers they just couldn't stand being in the presence of their Brother Primarch, especially Magnus. The emperor had his misgivings as well, since the second Primarch could see him for what he truly was.
Most Humans saw the emperor as he wanted himself to be seen, the epitome of perfect humanity. Tall, handsome, and unfathabily strong. However the Second Primarch saw him for what he was, a normal man with a immense precence in the warp. (This is strongly eluded to in the book "outcast dead")
I think the emperor was at a loss as to what to do about his 2nd son. He was faithful and a dedicated warrior to the ideaism of the fledging Imperium, however knew that his son could be a future liability. However the emperor knew that eventually the legion could be a hinging factor in defeating the forces of chaos in a time of emergency. The Emperor knew that he had truly pissed off the Big 4 Chaos gods with his intentions to conquer the galaxy, rid humanity of pagen beliefs, and get away from using warp driven ships for transportation and switch to human built gateways The empeors comprimise with the 2nd primarch was a bold one. Leaving Malacador to supervise, the entire 2nd legion to include the Primarch were put into stasis deep within the catacombs of the largest moon of Saturn....Titan. Only to be awaken during a time of absolute emergency.
Long story short I believe the small wooden box that the Grand master of the knights is a switch which will deactivate the stasis containers of the 2nd legion.
A few little critiques on that theory if I may. The lost legions and their Primarchs are referred to as "the forgotten and the purged." This is because they under went the rite of Obliteration, which is a punishment reserved for those deemed by the Emperor (or later on HLOT, Inquisition) to be Excommunicate Traitoris. At the time of the HH you had to do something REALLY bad to be deemed it unlike the modern IOM.
More over I do not believe the primarch of II would be deemed as Excommunicate Traitoris just because he is a blank since the Emperor used The Sisters of Silence. The Emperor in fact considered these women to be loyal beyond all shadow of doubt. Plus we all know the emp loved to downplay himself so I do not believe he would deem them Excommunicate Traitoris (say that 10 times fast ) for viewing Him as normal. Heck most SM still just consider the emperor as a great warrior no more no less.
I enjoy this thread, this question has come up before on Dakka and I always enjoy reading new views on it... If you search in Dakka for the other threads on this topic they make good reading too.
From what I've read (and there's a lot of discussion on this).. The evidence points overwhelmingly at them being descended from loyalist Thousand Sons.
This does seem like FanSpank to be honest but actually is pretty Grimdark if they ever get discovered/find out where they are from and loads more exciting then them being from Corax or Rouboute
The problem I have with Magnus as the primarch comes back to his flawed and unstable geneseed. People bring up "stable" geneseed but if this existed why wasnt it used when the legion was nearly destroyed at its founding?
The fact that they have many librarians is more likely due to the recruiting process. If a recruit is going to be psychic, that is something in the 40k world that is due to their birth genetics not the geneseed.
As far as the missing primarchs being the founders, just no. They have been destroyed. Read the "First Heretic" and it will erase any delusion that the lost and the purged still exist. Also it does not mean that one chapter is lost and the other is purged, they are both "lost and purged."
Once again I must point out GWs position on the lost and purged are so players can make their own SM chapters and CSM warbands. As far as that book it will be on my "next to read" list to see where you are coming from. I do agree with your point on Magnus though. Plus the emp was too busy working on the webway to fiddle with geneseeds to make them more stable. The librarian point I fully disagree with, regular psychers are rare to develop naturally, the talent comes from a flaw in the persons genetics. Geneseeds are GENETIC MATERIAL being implanted in the soon to be SM changing their genetic make-up to something completely different, so if a geneseed has the psycher flaw no coincidence the SM derived from that geneseed have an unusually high amount of psychers
Sir Samuel Buca wrote: Actually, whenever I see sound scientific theory in anything I read, it makes the whole novel more enjoyable to me. What can I say, I understand complicated maths, physics, chemistry and biology, and I enjoyed studying them for many years.
If a bit of science is injected, put into layman's terms so everyone can grasp it, it makes the future easier to comprehend.
chapgrimaldus wrote: Once again I must point out GWs position on the lost and purged are so players can make their own SM chapters and CSM warbands. As far as that book it will be on my "next to read" list to see where you are coming from. I do agree with your point on Magnus though. Plus the emp was too busy working on the webway to fiddle with geneseeds to make them more stable. The librarian point I fully disagree with, regular psychers are rare to develop naturally, the talent comes from a flaw in the persons genetics. Geneseeds are GENETIC MATERIAL being implanted in the soon to be SM changing their genetic make-up to something completely different, so if a geneseed has the psycher flaw no coincidence the SM derived from that geneseed have an unusually high amount of psychers
At one time GW pushed the line the lost and the purged were meant for players to use as their own chapters. Even then I wonder if they just didnt say that after the fact rather than pre plan it. Everything and nothing is canon with GW anyway and the current HH storyline has closed options for the mystery chapters.
All the stuff you said about psykers and gene seed is just your own fan fiction take on things, which is fine, but does not have wide currency. There are detailed descriptions as to exactly how the gene seed of a space marine works and no mention of it promoting psychic abilities. By your reasoning the Word Bearers should also have an abundance of psykers because Lorgar was a psyker.
As far as the Thousand Sons go you just cant know what was due to the gene seed and what was the result of Magnus' pact with Tzeentch. If the gene seed made the difference then why werent all the TS psykers? They were all getting the same geneseed after all.
Just because psykers are rare to develop naturally does not mean that a chapter could not recruit more than the usual number of psykers to fill the ranks of librarians. They even have a huge organization of the imperium out scouring the galaxy for human psykers and bringing them back in the Black Ships. Recruiting a lot of psykers is just not a difficult task for a space marine chapter if thats what they want to do.
Considering all of the Primarchs are beings infused with a lot of Warp energy, one of them being a blank is impossible. All of the Primarchs were able to see through the Emperor's glamour after initial observation.
The Emperor doesn't seem to much care about the Astartes recipe, since he just let Corax take it to a poorly defended world, and Corax was able to improve on it in short order which was also okay. Although, honestly, that last part is very stupid in my opinion. I much prefer the original fluff where Corax' tinkering to make "super" Astartes came with a terrible price, rather than the idea that a non-scholarly Primarch and a couple of human geneticists could improve on the Emperor's design in a couple of months and the Alpha Legion did their perfect infiltration and botched it with daemon blood. Alpha Legion are the stupidest thing in 40K now. The Blood Ravens' primarch is Alpharius, because all of the members are secretly Alpha Legionnaires.
