IF I were to run mutilators, I'd take deamon allies and the grimoire of true names. Use it to give them a 3++ as they have the demon special rule (iirc). Or I'd stick them in an LR and put Abby with them and then give them a 3++ when they got out. That seems like it could be quite fun.
I don't run them myself as they are ugly as
I'm tempted to convert some termies at some point.
For me, Mutilators fall into the same category as sushi and coffee: I really, really want to like them but I just absolutely can't. On paper they look pretty nifty with their good choices of weapons, but their main drawback is lack of a delivery system. Short of dropping another 220points for a Land Raider, they're going to be slogging up the battlefield, especially considering that they can't run. Sure they can Deep Strike, but this has it's obvious disadvantages, leaving you vulnerable to ID fire for a turn.
If you're adamant on taking them, as mentioned before taking a Grimoire to boost their Invuln to 2++ with the MoT (which I think they would do better with MoK) would help with the DS problem, but with the points that you're spending on these guys you could easily make up a CC-orientated squad such as Termies or even plain CSM that could do the job just as well with the added benefits of extra mobility.
In short, I'd consider them, but they're far from the competitive choice that Obliterators, and the Green Stuff abortions that make up their models make them even less of an attractive choice.
OK aside from all the people here with the usual net think comments, a solo mutilator with mark of nurgle or tzeentch or even markless is actually great force disruption for cheap. Simply DS a 55 point mutilator near a weapon emplacement like a squad of missile fangs, biovores or IG artillery or even a vindicare or quad gun and now your oppenent needs to allocate a much higher amount of points in there turn to deal with the threat or let the mutilator charge in an beat there units face.
The key is to keep it cheap so as I said they either let your 55 point single model charge in and take out their support fire or they dedicate a whole unit to dealing with him while you are tearing at him from the front.
He can also be used as a very cheap means at getting line breaker if you want to DS him behind some LOS blocking feature.
IMO elites are generally the last slot used in CSM, so it isn't a poor slot use to run a solo or two if you have the odd 55 points.
Deepstrike a squad with mark of nurgle or mark of khorn into cover and stand back 20" with a lvl3 unmarked sorceror with some obliteraters. Then cast invisibility onto the mutilators and let them enjoy a 2+ coversave. Watch everyone but tau freak out when they realize that that unit is about to screw an entire flank.
Now another thing you could do is run tzeench and cast forwarning for a 4++ that becomes a 3++ on them and have fun with that. Do that twice and its even more fun
So yes, I have had a lot of fun with mutilators and they are incredible ways to draw fire from your winged daemon prince as he flys in to pummel face
Take three of them, give MOK, add khorne lord in termi with axe and then I add termi sorc with level 3 and familliar. Roll 3 times on biomancy, and laugh.
Gives you a unit that can hit and kill any target, probably gets FNP and it will not die, as well as other neat powers.
It's probably the closest to a melee swiss army knife.
mcyeatman wrote: I was wonder if anyone is having success running Mutilators? If so, how are you using them?
sorry, they are terribad. The worst unit in the codex, that is full of bad units.
There are some who contend that dropping a single one in the enemy backfield can be used a a distraction unit. I think you are much better using 3 terminators than 1 mutilator(costs more) but gives you a much more effective unit.
Mutilators should always have had a 4++ and FNP. Then they might be worthwhile. As is, they are just bad. Dont even bother, even with the potential for that 3++ from the Grimoire.
Red Corsair wrote: OK aside from all the people here with the usual net think comments, a solo mutilator with mark of nurgle or tzeentch or even markless is actually great force disruption for cheap. Simply DS a 55 point mutilator near a weapon emplacement like a squad of missile fangs, biovores or IG artillery or even a vindicare or quad gun and now your oppenent needs to allocate a much higher amount of points in there turn to deal with the threat or let the mutilator charge in an beat there units face.
The key is to keep it cheap so as I said they either let your 55 point single model charge in and take out their support fire or they dedicate a whole unit to dealing with him while you are tearing at him from the front.
He can also be used as a very cheap means at getting line breaker if you want to DS him behind some LOS blocking feature.
IMO elites are generally the last slot used in CSM, so it isn't a poor slot use to run a solo or two if you have the odd 55 points.
So, that's essentially the same plan as the GK Solodin, same cost even, except the solodin can shoot (storm bolter or their holocaust blast, which is pretty good) and often, score.
Oh, yeah, they have grenades. Think of that---and assault unit, with grenades.
Adding to that particular discussion, I'd say if you have the spare 55 points, then give it a try. Just don't expect anything remotely close to a miracle to occur. Your enemies can kill it when it arrives or failing that, just back away since these things are ponderously slow. If you can make it into combat it's bound to do some damage against the range-based units you've been trying to distract, just the only problem is getting there and surviving long enough to do so.
OK aside from all the people here with the usual net think comments, a solo mutilator with mark of nurgle or tzeentch or even markless is actually great force disruption for cheap. Simply DS a 55 point mutilator near a weapon emplacement like a squad of missile fangs, biovores or IG artillery or even a vindicare or quad gun and now your oppenent needs to allocate a much higher amount of points in there turn to deal with the threat or let the mutilator charge in an beat there units face.
The key is to keep it cheap so as I said they either let your 55 point single model charge in and take out their support fire or they dedicate a whole unit to dealing with him while you are tearing at him from the front.
He can also be used as a very cheap means at getting line breaker if you want to DS him behind some LOS blocking feature.
IMO elites are generally the last slot used in CSM, so it isn't a poor slot use to run a solo or two if you have the odd 55 points.
The comments about using them with Demons aren't bad, but there are things in the Demon codex that will do the exact same thing for fewer points and you won't have to pay the Allies tax. The comment I quoted above is probably the only reasonable use I've heard of for them. I could maybe see taking two or three of them and giving the MoN to help with the survivability. The only thing is, you have to ask yourself what you lose by letting them take up those FoC slots.
Red Corsair wrote: OK aside from all the people here with the usual net think comments, a solo mutilator with mark of nurgle or tzeentch or even markless is actually great force disruption for cheap. Simply DS a 55 point mutilator near a weapon emplacement like a squad of missile fangs, biovores or IG artillery or even a vindicare or quad gun and now your oppenent needs to allocate a much higher amount of points in there turn to deal with the threat or let the mutilator charge in an beat there units face.
The key is to keep it cheap so as I said they either let your 55 point single model charge in and take out their support fire or they dedicate a whole unit to dealing with him while you are tearing at him from the front.
He can also be used as a very cheap means at getting line breaker if you want to DS him behind some LOS blocking feature.
IMO elites are generally the last slot used in CSM, so it isn't a poor slot use to run a solo or two if you have the odd 55 points.
So, that's essentially the same plan as the GK Solodin, same cost even, except the solodin can shoot (storm bolter or their holocaust blast, which is pretty good) and often, score.
Oh, yeah, they have grenades. Think of that---and assault unit, with grenades.
and they cannot be swept because they are ATSKNF. Think of that--- an assault unit, that can lose combat and stick around
Well, it seems like we have 2 clear camps on the subject. I do like some of the suggestions however. Along the same theme of questionable elite choices for CSM, is anyone having success with Hellbrutes?
Hellbrutes are fine, just not great. They are cheap enough you can bring 3 easy but they suffer as all dreads (save perhaps iron clads) do in this edition and we don't have a reliable delivery system like our loyalist brethren do in the drop pod.
For mutilators, man, I don't know what they were thinking. If they had grenades and unit size of 10 I could maybe have come up with some creative solutions but the small unit size and no assault grenades in an already shooty edition is just too much to even consider taking them.
mcyeatman wrote: Well, it seems like we have 2 clear camps on the subject. I do like some of the suggestions however. Along the same theme of questionable elite choices for CSM, is anyone having success with Hellbrutes?
Helbrutes are ok as armor saturation and a way to get plasma cannons. I have used them in a monster mash for daemon engines. Maulerfiends, forgefineds, and defilers suffer in close combat against hordes and to a lesser extend against Meq when there is a lot of them. Preditors and vindicators even more so. A helbrute can be very effective at doubling the number of attacks and hull points while also brining some horde thinning weapons(heavy flamer/plasma cannon).
I'm sorry, there is simply no reason to run mutilators. None.
I completely disagree with the responses of this thread. Mutilators are not an auto-include, but they aren't bad. If used as a disruption unit, they can work. Take the MoN and think of them as a deep striking Lone Wolf. If you have some leftover points, it isn't like they are competing with much for that Elite spot.
I always wondered what was running through the guy who made them's head. "Lets make a CC only version of obliterators: tons of points, can't run, can't sweep, no grenades, no reasonable transport, not even going to let them assault from deepstrike like the loyaLists are all doing these days. Perfect, everyone will want them. Now to design the model..."
I'm sorry, there is simply no reason to run mutilators. None.
I completely disagree with the responses of this thread. Mutilators are not an auto-include, but they aren't bad. If used as a disruption unit, they can work. Take the MoN and think of them as a deep striking Lone Wolf. If you have some leftover points, it isn't like they are competing with much for that Elite spot.
No....they really are that bad. They're only slighly more killy than a single terminator. There's really no reason not to take 3 terminators, or a lone boliterator, depending on what you want to do.
Other than pyrovores (still the reigning champ) they are the worst unit in 40k.
No....they really are that bad. They're only slighly more killy than a single terminator. There's really no reason not to take 3 terminators, or a lone boliterator, depending on what you want to do.
Other than pyrovores (still the reigning champ) they are the worst unit in 40k.
I just don't agree. For 61 points, you get a unit with 2 wounds, toughness 5, 2+/5++ and 4 attacks of almost any standard CC weapon on the charge. If you drop them in an opponent's backfield, they must deal with it. There are plenty of weak objective grabbers (very popular), and long ranged units (both armor and infantry) that simply can't take out a Mutilator that easily.
In addition, you can easily keep a Mutilator back to support your own weak objective grabbers or Cultist blogs while better units run forward.
I'm not advocating for big units, or even multiple units. I do think that if you have 61 free points (you will likely have that free Elite slot if you are running CSM), they are worth some consideration. They fill an interesting niche that you can't easily fill for the price.
I'm sorry, there is simply no reason to run mutilators. None.
I completely disagree with the responses of this thread. Mutilators are not an auto-include, but they aren't bad. If used as a disruption unit, they can work. Take the MoN and think of them as a deep striking Lone Wolf. If you have some leftover points, it isn't like they are competing with much for that Elite spot.
No....they really are that bad. They're only slighly more killy than a single terminator. There's really no reason not to take 3 terminators, or a lone boliterator, depending on what you want to do.
Other than pyrovores (still the reigning champ) they are the worst unit in 40k.
not including special characters you might be right. Mandrakes are pretty bad though.
A friend of mine was convinced to try Mutilators by someone on Dakka, oddly enough. Until that time, we were in the "one of the worst units in the game" category.
Oh how wrong we all were. They've been the most effective unit on the field in more than half the games they've been in, and been instrumental in all of them.
No amount of talking is going to convince anyone, you'll have to see them in action. Take 3 Nurgle Mutilators and give em a whirl. That unit is pretty cheap, so you won't be compromising your army at all.
If your opponent is going to rush into you, use them as counter assault. If your opponent is a static gunline, set them up on a flank and just rush up the field. Or, if you want to distract the back of their army, deep strike.
The people saying they are awful are almost certainly saying that based on just their stats and not actual play. Everyone telling you they are good has seen them on the table.
Well, yes, I can ignore them. I can probably just walk away.
for 93 pts you could have 3 terminators.
If you want to run away from an objective, I'm fine with it. All I'm advocating is that they are at worst, a decent disruption unit.
In addition, there are plenty of units that don't want to run, lest they risk losing heavy weapon shots or a solid vantage point. Again, points well spent.
Finally, if we want to go point for point, 3 Terminators is 95 points, and adding an additional terminator brings the total to 126. 2 MoN Mutilators is 122 points. Aside from those "awesome" combi-bolters, the Terminators are worse. The Mutilators are more survivable due to a higher toughness, have equal wounds and save, and have better close combat options.
I'm sorry, there is simply no reason to run mutilators. None.
I completely disagree with the responses of this thread. Mutilators are not an auto-include, but they aren't bad. If used as a disruption unit, they can work. Take the MoN and think of them as a deep striking Lone Wolf. If you have some leftover points, it isn't like they are competing with much for that Elite spot.
No....they really are that bad. They're only slighly more killy than a single terminator. There's really no reason not to take 3 terminators, or a lone boliterator, depending on what you want to do.
Other than pyrovores (still the reigning champ) they are the worst unit in 40k.
3 Termies cost a lot more than 1 MoN Mut. I used singleton Mutilators for a while as some counterattack and I found them useful. It's one more hardy target opponents must waste shooting on. They can also DS into the back-lines of opponents.
Are they great? No. But are they versatile and offer some tactical flexibility? Yeah, i'd argue that they can fulfill a niche role. If they fit into a list, I can see uses.
I'm sorry, there is simply no reason to run mutilators. None.
I completely disagree with the responses of this thread. Mutilators are not an auto-include, but they aren't bad. If used as a disruption unit, they can work. Take the MoN and think of them as a deep striking Lone Wolf. If you have some leftover points, it isn't like they are competing with much for that Elite spot.
No....they really are that bad. They're only slighly more killy than a single terminator. There's really no reason not to take 3 terminators, or a lone boliterator, depending on what you want to do.
Other than pyrovores (still the reigning champ) they are the worst unit in 40k.
There is an awful lot of stuff you have to get through before you can even think of calling yourself pyrovore level bad. Penal Legion troops, Mandrakes, Old One Eye, Furies (LEADERSHIP 2!!!!!) and Flamers (here have some FNP on me) still exist after all.
Sir_Prometheus wrote: All those things are totally better than mutilators. (mandrakes only a little, but at least they aren't an assault unit that's slow)
meganobs are an assault unit that is still slow. and they are good not great. The have 2+ saves and standard load out of weapons. The difference is that meganobs come at a substantial discount to what you would otherwise be able to get (nob, with combishoota, PK and 2+ save for only 40 points). In addiition they come in a book that lacks quantities of power weapons or 2+ saves so they fill a role not otherwise covered elsewhere in the codex. Mutilators are very similar to terminators and do not come at a significant discount.
Sir_Prometheus wrote: All those things are totally better than mutilators. (mandrakes only a little, but at least they aren't an assault unit that's slow)
I don't think you understand how terrible leadership 2 is on a jump assault unit with only one attack that is fragile as hell. Take any losses and the entire unit just nopes off the battlefield. And Flamers have a damn near 50% chance of giving MEQs feel no pain for free, stackable feel no pain no less. So with a few bad rolls you can wind up with literally invincible enemies.
Sir_Prometheus wrote: All those things are totally better than mutilators. (mandrakes only a little, but at least they aren't an assault unit that's slow)
meganobs are an assault unit that is still slow. and they are good not great. The have 2+ saves and standard load out of weapons. The difference is that meganobs come at a substantial discount to what you would otherwise be able to get (nob, with combishoota, PK and 2+ save for only 40 points). In addiition they come in a book that lacks quantities of power weapons or 2+ saves so they fill a role not otherwise covered elsewhere in the codex. Mutilators are very similar to terminators and do not come at a significant discount.
Yeah....you know what the difference is? Nobs have access to good, cheap assault transports, can come in units larger than 3, and worst case happens, they can at least shoot a little. THose are soem pretty huge diferences.
Sir_Prometheus wrote: All those things are totally better than mutilators. (mandrakes only a little, but at least they aren't an assault unit that's slow)
meganobs are an assault unit that is still slow. and they are good not great. The have 2+ saves and standard load out of weapons. The difference is that meganobs come at a substantial discount to what you would otherwise be able to get (nob, with combishoota, PK and 2+ save for only 40 points). In addiition they come in a book that lacks quantities of power weapons or 2+ saves so they fill a role not otherwise covered elsewhere in the codex. Mutilators are very similar to terminators and do not come at a significant discount.
Yeah....you know what the difference is? Nobs have access to good, cheap assault transports, can come in units larger than 3, and worst case happens, they can at least shoot a little. THose are soem pretty huge diferences.
Of all the bad ideas, driving Meganobz around in a Trukk is one of the worst ever.
Sir_Prometheus wrote: All those things are totally better than mutilators. (mandrakes only a little, but at least they aren't an assault unit that's slow)
I don't think you understand how terrible leadership 2 is on a jump assault unit with only one attack that is fragile as hell. Take any losses and the entire unit just nopes off the battlefield. And Flamers have a damn near 50% chance of giving MEQs feel no pain for free, stackable feel no pain no less. So with a few bad rolls you can wind up with literally invincible enemies.
I do, actually, though they're essentially fearless when not in CC. They're also stupid cheap. Like any demon unit, I think they need to only get in fights you're sure they can win. Isn't there soem way to get them a herald or otherwise boost their leadership? I dunno, I didn't say they were good.
Flamers actually have 2/3 chance to give marines FNP. Either kill make sure you use the unit outright or don't use them on marines.
Demons seems all about making sure you're overwhelming things. I'm not really defending these units, just saying that they're at least usable. Mutilators are awful.
Sir_Prometheus wrote: All those things are totally better than mutilators. (mandrakes only a little, but at least they aren't an assault unit that's slow)
meganobs are an assault unit that is still slow. and they are good not great. The have 2+ saves and standard load out of weapons. The difference is that meganobs come at a substantial discount to what you would otherwise be able to get (nob, with combishoota, PK and 2+ save for only 40 points). In addiition they come in a book that lacks quantities of power weapons or 2+ saves so they fill a role not otherwise covered elsewhere in the codex. Mutilators are very similar to terminators and do not come at a significant discount.
Yeah....you know what the difference is? Nobs have access to good, cheap assault transports, can come in units larger than 3, and worst case happens, they can at least shoot a little. THose are soem pretty huge diferences.
Of all the bad ideas, driving Meganobz around in a Trukk is one of the worst ever.
Seen it work, but battlewagons are pretty cheap too. What's the problem? Meganobs get used all the time. They're nothing like mutilators.
Tell me this, how are they better than either using terminators, or paying 15 pts more for obliterators? Obliterators are nearly as good in CC, can actually do something while they fail to catch the target.
Sir_Prometheus wrote: All those things are totally better than mutilators. (mandrakes only a little, but at least they aren't an assault unit that's slow)
I don't think you understand how terrible leadership 2 is on a jump assault unit with only one attack that is fragile as hell. Take any losses and the entire unit just nopes off the battlefield. And Flamers have a damn near 50% chance of giving MEQs feel no pain for free, stackable feel no pain no less. So with a few bad rolls you can wind up with literally invincible enemies.
I do, actually, though they're essentially fearless when not in CC. They're also stupid cheap. Like any demon unit, I think they need to only get in fights you're sure they can win. Isn't there soem way to get them a herald or otherwise boost their leadership? I dunno, I didn't say they were good.
Flamers actually have 2/3 chance to give marines FNP. Either kill make sure you use the unit outright or don't use them on marines.
Demons seems all about making sure you're overwhelming things. I'm not really defending these units, just saying that they're at least usable. Mutilators are awful.
There isn't a single fight furies can win. I've seen them routinely get their butts handed to them by Fire Warriors in assault. They are the most useless, pointless, and confusingly detrimental unit in the Daemons dex and just taking them hurts your entire army by eating your budget for something that is garaunteed to do nothing but embarrass you. And they have the audacity to be in the same section as a lot of very good units.
I'm sure that in this T4 unit dominated meta that you'll get plenty of chances to wheel your glass cannons close enough to GEQs to still run the dire risk of giving them feel no pain for free assuming they weren't shot to pieces beforehand or were charged and brutalized because god damn are Tzeentch daemons gakky in assault. I mean, the only reaction Marine, Ork, or Necron players have when they see Flamers is gut busting laughter because whereas most units have the courtesy to just do nothing if they fail, Flamers instead give your enemies bonuses for free.
Actually, better than free. Completely at your expense.
Maybe they are that bad, don't really feel like arguing it. Still not as bad as mutilators.
As a Tyranid player I frequently emphasize with Daemons as they share a lot in common with my army, and once they stopped sucking so god damn bad with their new codex I decided to use a lot of former shelf warmers to form an army. They're much better now but boy oh boy do they have some terribad units.
Well, yes, I can ignore them. I can probably just walk away.
for 93 pts you could have 3 terminators.
If you want to run away from an objective, I'm fine with it. All I'm advocating is that they are at worst, a decent disruption unit.
In addition, there are plenty of units that don't want to run, lest they risk losing heavy weapon shots or a solid vantage point. Again, points well spent.
Finally, if we want to go point for point, 3 Terminators is 95 points, and adding an additional terminator brings the total to 126. 2 MoN Mutilators is 122 points. Aside from those "awesome" combi-bolters, the Terminators are worse. The Mutilators are more survivable due to a higher toughness, have equal wounds and save, and have better close combat options.
Finally someone who gets my point. I still don't understand how people miss the point that if you have an odd 55 pts and have FILLED your better slots ie FA and HS, then they are amazing at disruption. They are even cheaper then termicide, sometimes I just can't scrape up the points for that termicide unit, but I can generally find use for the lone mutilator. I get the feeling that the people hating on them really have never tried them in this role, the lone wolf role. Can he be killed? Totally, but you win games by forcing your opponent to make bad decisions or better yet force him to make those calls where he can't come ahead of you. Most things that can deal with him easily cost WAY more then 55 points meaning the have to waste ordinance on him and not the rest of your force.
Maybe they are that bad, don't really feel like arguing it. Still not as bad as mutilators.
Mutilators aren't even the worst choice in their own codex. I would head to any competitive event with Mutilators over any of the Cult troops taken as Elites, a Hellbrute, Possessed, Warp Talons, or a Defiler. I wouldn't ever even consider the aforementioned options in a competitive list--I would, in some instances, take a lone Mutilator or two.
Saying that Mutilators are one of the worst units in the game is simply not correct. I can list a handful of options in almost every codex that are worse. Again, not trying to make the claim that they are a "blue chip auto-include," but they do have a place at times.
The problem with defilers is that they don't do anything particularly well. Their mediocre BS hampers them in assault and their selection of guns isn't going to wow many people for shooting. And they have a freaking gigantic base that isn't overly durable.
All I'm advocating is that they are at worst, a decent disruption unit.
I agree that if you have a spare 55pts and an open FOC slot then they really are decent provided you DS them AND there are no mishaps AND they survive the obligatory round of shooting + overwatch before they get to cc. Because of all that though, I would change your quote to the following:
All I'm advocating is that they are at BEST, a decent disruption unit.
I certainly wouldn't take them but the OP was asking for possible uses and I think that DS'ng one with maybe MoN is one of the best. Unless you want to try and load a gaggle of them into a Land Raider, but IMO that's too much of a points sink. I don't think they are the worst unit in the game, but they are definitly one of the least well thought out units in the game (although poorly thought out units pretty much defines CSM).
I agree that if you have a spare 55pts and an open FOC slot then they really are decent provided you DS them AND there are no mishaps AND they survive the obligatory round of shooting + overwatch before they get to cc. Because of all that though, I would change your quote to the following:
All I'm advocating is that they are at BEST, a decent disruption unit.
With premeasuring, deep striking isn't that bad. I am aware that they need to survive a round of shooting, but that is why you have to pick your battles. I don't mind taking some hits from Lasguns and Bolters shot by backfield objective campers. Really, I don't mind taking shots that are AP 3 and higher. Even if a bunch of Broadsides are forced to shoot you down, that is a turn of shooting that you were able to dictate. The Mutilator may have saved something far more valuable.
Mutilators won't pay off every game, but lots of things don't. A MoN Mutilator is 4 less points than Marbo, and is similarly boom or bust. While the Mutilator isn't packing that one shot demo charge, they are far more survivable and versatile.
Again--not for every list. Not an auto take. But certainly not unusable.
The problem with defilers is that they don't do anything particularly well. Their mediocre BS hampers them in assault and their selection of guns isn't going to wow many people for shooting. And they have a freaking gigantic base that isn't overly durable.
Nah, man. Everyone looks first at the mauler fiend but it only has 2 attacks base. I forget the exact math but you can get way more attacks on a defiler.
And it's got a very simple battle plan. Move->shoot, Move->shoot, charge. Fleet, it's gonna to get the charge off nearly the same time (maybe you slip to turn 3) as the maulerfiend, do a lot more in the mean time and hit harder when it does.
I agree that if you have a spare 55pts and an open FOC slot then they really are decent provided you DS them AND there are no mishaps AND they survive the obligatory round of shooting + overwatch before they get to cc. Because of all that though, I would change your quote to the following:
All I'm advocating is that they are at BEST, a decent disruption unit.
With premeasuring, deep striking isn't that bad. I am aware that they need to survive a round of shooting, but that is why you have to pick your battles. I don't mind taking some hits from Lasguns and Bolters shot by backfield objective campers. Really, I don't mind taking shots that are AP 3 and higher. Even if a bunch of Broadsides are forced to shoot you down, that is a turn of shooting that you were able to dictate. The Mutilator may have saved something far more valuable.
Mutilators won't pay off every game, but lots of things don't. A MoN Mutilator is 4 less points than Marbo, and is similarly boom or bust. While the Mutilator isn't packing that one shot demo charge, they are far more survivable and versatile.
Again--not for every list. Not an auto take. But certainly not unusable.
Why would you compare something to Marbo then say "they don't have the one thing that makes Marbo any good" which is the deep strike demo charge..
Honestly I don't see how you would ever have 55 points left over for a model that is slow, has low amounts of attacks and isn't a threat to most units. Lack of a run move is pretty awful for a CC unit! Even terminators can run.
The problem with defilers is that they don't do anything particularly well. Their mediocre BS hampers them in assault and their selection of guns isn't going to wow many people for shooting. And they have a freaking gigantic base that isn't overly durable.
Nah, man. Everyone looks first at the mauler fiend but it only has 2 attacks base. I forget the exact math but you can get way more attacks on a defiler.
And it's got a very simple battle plan. Move->shoot, Move->shoot, charge. Fleet, it's gonna to get the charge off nearly the same time (maybe you slip to turn 3) as the maulerfiend, do a lot more in the mean time and hit harder when it does.
maulerfiends cost almost half as much and move twice as fast. They dont shoot, but they neuter fortifications and vehicles if you come across them.
The problem with defilers is that they don't do anything particularly well. Their mediocre BS hampers them in assault and their selection of guns isn't going to wow many people for shooting. And they have a freaking gigantic base that isn't overly durable.
Nah, man. Everyone looks first at the mauler fiend but it only has 2 attacks base. I forget the exact math but you can get way more attacks on a defiler.
And it's got a very simple battle plan. Move->shoot, Move->shoot, charge. Fleet, it's gonna to get the charge off nearly the same time (maybe you slip to turn 3) as the maulerfiend, do a lot more in the mean time and hit harder when it does.
maulerfiends cost almost half as much and move twice as fast. They dont shoot, but they neuter fortifications and vehicles if you come across them.
I agree that if you have a spare 55pts and an open FOC slot then they really are decent provided you DS them AND there are no mishaps AND they survive the obligatory round of shooting + overwatch before they get to cc. Because of all that though, I would change your quote to the following:
All I'm advocating is that they are at BEST, a decent disruption unit.
With premeasuring, deep striking isn't that bad. I am aware that they need to survive a round of shooting, but that is why you have to pick your battles. I don't mind taking some hits from Lasguns and Bolters shot by backfield objective campers. Really, I don't mind taking shots that are AP 3 and higher. Even if a bunch of Broadsides are forced to shoot you down, that is a turn of shooting that you were able to dictate. The Mutilator may have saved something far more valuable.
Mutilators won't pay off every game, but lots of things don't. A MoN Mutilator is 4 less points than Marbo, and is similarly boom or bust. While the Mutilator isn't packing that one shot demo charge, they are far more survivable and versatile.
Again--not for every list. Not an auto take. But certainly not unusable.
Why would you compare something to Marbo then say "they don't have the one thing that makes Marbo any good" which is the deep strike demo charge..
Honestly I don't see how you would ever have 55 points left over for a model that is slow, has low amounts of attacks and isn't a threat to most units. Lack of a run move is pretty awful for a CC unit! Even terminators can run.
Tycho wrote:
All I'm advocating is that they are at worst, a decent disruption unit.
I agree that if you have a spare 55pts and an open FOC slot then they really are decent provided you DS them AND there are no mishaps AND they survive the obligatory round of shooting + overwatch before they get to cc. Because of all that though, I would change your quote to the following:
All I'm advocating is that they are at BEST, a decent disruption unit.
I certainly wouldn't take them but the OP was asking for possible uses and I think that DS'ng one with maybe MoN is one of the best. Unless you want to try and load a gaggle of them into a Land Raider, but IMO that's too much of a points sink. I don't think they are the worst unit in the game, but they are definitly one of the least well thought out units in the game (although poorly thought out units pretty much defines CSM).
The question still stands though, have you fielded a solo mutilator in the suggested fashion or are you speaking from pure theory?I
feel like the people who are hating on the strategy of using them for line breaker or disruption seriously have no idea and are not speaking from experience.
DarknessEternal wrote: A friend of mine was convinced to try Mutilators by someone on Dakka, oddly enough. Until that time, we were in the "one of the worst units in the game" category.
Oh how wrong we all were. They've been the most effective unit on the field in more than half the games they've been in, and been instrumental in all of them.
No amount of talking is going to convince anyone, you'll have to see them in action. Take 3 Nurgle Mutilators and give em a whirl. That unit is pretty cheap, so you won't be compromising your army at all.
If your opponent is going to rush into you, use them as counter assault. If your opponent is a static gunline, set them up on a flank and just rush up the field. Or, if you want to distract the back of their army, deep strike.
The people saying they are awful are almost certainly saying that based on just their stats and not actual play. Everyone telling you they are good has seen them on the table.
Good point. I have never played them or seen them played. I will proxy them next chance I get. It can't hurt.... well that bad at least.
Sir_Prometheus wrote: He was talking about defilers. But no, they're %64 expensive, and not twice as fast, as the defiler's have fleet -- it makes a big difference.
but as the maulerfiend isnt worried about shooting, they run in every shooting phase and they also have fleet, so yes they are twice as fast.
turn order mauler defilers
1st turn 16.5" 6"
2nd turn 28.5+9.5" 12"
3rd turn already in assualt 18+9.5"
in 2 turns the maulerfiend is going to cover over 10" more than the defiler in 3 turns. Sure you get that shooting, but you might not even get into assault turn 3, you might have to wait till turn 4. The maulerfiend threatens infiltrators turn 1. It threatens just about anything turn 2. The defiler threatens things set at the edge of the oppoents deployment zone turn 3 and that is about it.
The question still stands though, have you fielded a solo mutilator in the suggested fashion or are you speaking from pure theory?I
Honestly, no. I haven't taken one because if I want disruption I have other units that do that really well. I also can't remember the last time I had 55 points to spare at the end of making a list. That being said though, I CAN see them being somewhat useful as a one off teleporting assault unit on a backline, or to push something shooty off an objective at a later point in the game. So much has to go right for that to happen though that I'm not convinced it's something that should really be relied upon. I have a few games tonight though, so will re-work my list to fit in a mutie with MoN and see how it goes!
Sir_Prometheus wrote: He was talking about defilers. But no, they're %64 expensive, and not twice as fast, as the defiler's have fleet -- it makes a big difference.
but as the maulerfiend isnt worried about shooting, they run in every shooting phase and they also have fleet, so yes they are twice as fast.
turn order mauler defilers
1st turn 16.5" 6"
2nd turn 28.5+9.5" 12"
3rd turn already in assualt 18+9.5"
in 2 turns the maulerfiend is going to cover over 10" more than the defiler in 3 turns. Sure you get that shooting, but you might not even get into assault turn 3, you might have to wait till turn 4. The maulerfiend threatens infiltrators turn 1. It threatens just about anything turn 2. The defiler threatens things set at the edge of the oppoents deployment zone turn 3 and that is about it.
The defiler threatens everything that tries to close with your army. There is nothing like seeing the look on your opponents face as your defiler charges and wipes the squad of terminaters that just deepstriked in, or the infiltrator/outflankers your enemy was going to harrass you with. They also screen rhinos pretty well. Id take them over mutilators any day.
Last time I faced mutilators, my foe managed to infiltrate 2 units of 3. By the end of the game they had torn out the middle of my army despite my shooting madly at them. I believe that while they may not be the "win Button" units, they still can be pretty effective. Especially against non horde armies as hordes have the weight of fire required to drag them down.
Never tried the lone wolf. Sounds like it could be a viable option, though a Oblit would probably be a better deal.
I have tried both Mutilators and maulerfiends. I was in a phase where I wanted to create a total cloase assault list which didnt fire a single shot.
Actually, mutilators may be on par or even better than Maulerfiends. The times I tried mutilators, they did something. I used them on their own, solo, and I used 3. So, one turn you could have 3 mutilators dropping on 3 different points in the battlefield.
I deep striked them in aggressively. Footprint of one mutilator is small, plus if I deep strike, good chance it goes back to reserve, big deal. Even if I lose the mutilator, thats 55 points. So I deep strike them very near where I want, literally within 6 inches, so that next turn, there is no way they can run away. Plus some stuff like that ranged unit camped in ruins, simply can't or won't run away. They are too comfortable where they are.
Mutilators then to be under estimated. Only after one mutilator charges a landraider and takes it out with double chainfists, then people start to treat it with respect. Even if they shoot it, they sometimes forget that its a 2 wound unit. Yes, it can be ID. But then you waste a lascanoon shot at one model. Same lascannon shot won't be taking out some other more dangerous stuff.
The games I played them, mutilators did something. They HAD to be taken out because they were in the backfield and can give line breaker, but they were very irritating to take out.
Maulerfiends on the other hand. The thing looks good on paper, I tried it and they fared worse than Mutilators. I tried 3! And every game I tried them, they still fared worse than 3 single mutilaors (and cost a bunch more). They literally did nothing in the games I tried them.
Why? Because they start on your side of the board, they are big juicy priority targets with only AV 12. Sure they got 5++ but when you are penned, and you need that save, it doesn't happen. AV 12 is remarkably easy to take out, especially for a unit that is slogging up the field since its easy to present its rear sooner or later which is only AV 10..
I had games where all 3 maulerfiends were dead by turn 2. I had a game where my last maulerfiend declared a charge on mephiston. He overwatched with his plasma pistol, scored a pen, and immobilised it. The mauler fiend sat there for the rest of the game as a deadweight until it was mercy killed for vp...
Try out 3 solo mutilators deep striking in aggressively before you say they are crap. You will be surprised how effective they can be. At the very least, they give line breaker, which in itself is worth one VP. They just need to charge something and there's a good chance they will kill it and make more than their points back. On the off chance they get to charge and kill a vehicle, then they are definitely making their points back!
Oblits are good too, but you can take both mutilators and oblits. There is a ton of competition in the heavy support slot. In elites, there is little competition.
HeraldofDisease wrote: I really want an excuse to use them also, but I hear nothing but bad reviews on them :(
Just try 2 for 110 points. Deep strike them in solo, one by one, in opponent's backfield. Try that out for a couple of games and then you can form a better idea. At the worst, they didn't do anything and you are down 110 points, but he probably needed to devote more than 110 points worth of shooting to take both out. In other games, they will shine, kill more than their points, give you linbreaker, destroy a whole flank, etc
Just try 2 for 110 points. Deep strike them in solo, one by one, in opponent's backfield. Try that out for a couple of games and then you can form a better idea. At the worst, they didn't do anything and you are down 110 points, but he probably needed to devote more than 110 points worth of shooting to take both out. In other games, they will shine, kill more than their points, give you linbreaker, destroy a whole flank, etc
I don't think they are worthwhile without Mark of Nurgle. Remember, in 6th edition, you get real toughness 5, which is quite an upgrade.
If you are spare the points to upgrade them, then sure!
They are ok even without the upgrade. Think about it, how many ranged weapons can instant kill an mutilator. Lascannons are the main culprits. Things like missile launchers, they get a save, and their toughness is irrelevant.
If he wants to waste one lascannon on a mutilatorr, who will still get a 5++, he is welcome. Thats one less lascannon shot at a heavy support. I saved lascannon shots on that 5++ before, the reaction is very funny when that happens.
Biggest selling point about mutilators is that they are cheap. If opponent devotes some of his best weapons to take out mutilators, then I am happy. More often than not, he has far better things to do with his lascannons than shoot them at mutilators.
Resurrecting the fury talk for a moment, tzeentch furies work great as a delivery system for zipping heralds of tzeentch on discs around the board, and make them far more survivable for cheaper than a chariot.
A good 100 pts of slaanesh furies will rip and tear light transports and backfield fire support just fine.
Skulltaker on juggernaut with khorne furies is a cheaper character killing delivery system than bloodcrushers.
Nurgle furies...eh those and unmarked furies, yeah those are pretty bad.
JGrand wrote:Take the MoN and think of them as a deep striking Lone Wolf. If you have some leftover points, it isn't like they are competing with much for that Elite spot.
Red Corsair wrote:Simply DS a 55 point mutilator near a weapon emplacement like a squad of missile fangs, biovores or IG artillery or even a vindicare or quad gun and now your oppenent needs to allocate a much higher amount of points in there turn to deal with the threat or let the mutilator charge in an beat there units face.
... for a turn.
That's not much of a distraction for the price.
Plus, for twice as many points, you can take some combi-weapon terminators, who will have the same distraction effect, but are harder to kill, and can actually shoot guns the turn the arrive.
If you really only have 55 points to spend, buy some meltaguns, or something. There are a LOT of ways to fritter points away with CSM that don't involve an assault unit that will never assault.
I'd definitely agree with the consensus that they give penal legionnaires a serious run for their money for worst unit in the game at the moment.
JGrand wrote:If you want to run away from an objective, I'm fine with it. All I'm advocating is that they are at worst, a decent disruption unit.
Firstly, if you're deepstriking that close to an objective, what's the odds that they scatter? Also, they're guaranteed to be in by turn 4, so they're not exactly a surprise contester.
Secondly, what's the point of disruption? Yes, you manage to avert a couple of plasma guns for a turn, so what? Harassment units are terrible in 40k. If they weren't, then all guard players would run penal legionnaires, and sentinels. But they don't. Because they're terrible.
JGrand wrote:In addition, there are plenty of units that don't want to run, lest they risk losing heavy weapon shots or a solid vantage point. Again, points well spent.
You should always assume that your opponent is as competent as possible. A decent player wouldn't make a mistake like this.
JGrand wrote:Finally, if we want to go point for point, 3 Terminators is 95 points, and adding an additional terminator brings the total to 126. 2 MoN Mutilators is 122 points. Aside from those "awesome" combi-bolters, the Terminators are worse. The Mutilators are more survivable due to a higher toughness, have equal wounds and save, and have better close combat options.
But this doesn't make any sense. Firstly, 2 mutilators aren't THAT much better in close combat than terminators. Secondly, if you can't see the difference between the kind of damage caused by 3 BS4 combi-meltas and NOTHING when they drop in, then I'd question how much you've ever faced off against deepstrikers.
JGrand wrote:I don't mind taking some hits from Lasguns and Bolters shot by backfield objective campers....
Mutilators won't pay off every game, but lots of things don't.
Once again, if the only thing your opponent has to defend their backfield objectives is a few lasguns or bolters, they're doing things very, VERY wrong.
Secondly, yes, things don't need to pay off every game. That said, things that pay off practically never are still bad units.
In the end, it seems that in order to like mutilators...
Red Corsair wrote:The question still stands though, have you fielded a solo mutilator in the suggested fashion or are you speaking from pure theory?
... you're stuck between an argument from authority fallacy, or you believe that tiny data sets lead to objective truth.
PredaKhaine wrote: Has anyone got any good conversion ideas for mutilators?
I got the original Obliterator models and used one for a conversion. Used the arms as heavy weapons for some Chaos Marines (a semi-Dark Mechanised Iron Warrior for one) and then sued the body. I also had a couple of the old Powerfist/Chainsword Doom Siren Champion from 2nd Ed.
So I put two Noisemarine Slaaneshi Powerfists on a Obliterator body. I've been using him as an Oblit for a long time, but now with Mutilators in the mix I am thinking I might try him out to see how this 'disruption' discussion works out.
Ok so as much as I want to laugh at all the people who said mutilations have a use as a solo disruption unit on weak backfield scoring units, I really can't as there have been way more incompetent things said in this thread. IF someone had a gun to my head and said run this unit or die, or if I was playing in a non competitive setting this is how I would run them too.
That said, if you have 55 points left then why are you not grabbing a cultist unit for some more backfield scoring?
OK, so I tried the lone Mutie last night. Unfortunately my first two games were against a Tau player ...
This is a stupidly small sample size (way too small and wierd to mean anything definitive but I figured I'd at least try it and post a summary) and Tau are obviously NOT the best army to try this against but anyway, here we go:
Game 1
DS Mutie with no mark teleports in on turn 2. I tried to get him in near a squad of Firewarriors and positioned in such a way that only one squad would be able to shoot at him. Instead I scattered stupidly far in the absolute worst direction (why oh WHY do we NOT have reliable homing beacons!?!?!?) and ended up getting pasted by about 30 FW in the Tau turn. Since nothing else was in range or LOS yet anyway the Mutie really didn't even save anyone from getting shot at. It was kind of hilarious to watch actually.
Game 2
Same Tau player but Mutie has MoN. He used Interceptor to blast it off the board. Nothing more to see here. lol
Game 3
A smaller game against Dark Eldar. Mutie has MoN. It came in on turn 4 near a squad of Kabalites (I think 10 of them) with no transport, no upgrades and no backup camping on an objective in their backfield. I only scattered a small distance and did eventually push them off the objective which ended up winning me the game. Barely.
So take from it what you will, but I just thought I'd post my sparse results. I would NEVER do this again against Tau (I saw the pasting coming but tried it anyway), but I might consider trying it against C:SM devastators or CSM Havocs or something like that. Cultists are too expensive for what you get and I have a tendency not to objective camp with my CSM anyway so the 55pts might be well spent in that case.
I think their *biggest* issue isn't survivability, or the perils of deep striking, or their toughness, it's slow & purposeful.
When was the last time you charged a unit and won the combat by wiping it out? I imagine it's pretty rare. Usually you win combats by breaking and then sweeping the enemy, which S&P units can't do.
This is only exacerbated by the fact that expensive, one model assault units like mutilators usually don't put out enough attacks to win outright and rely on sweeping even more!
I think their *biggest* issue isn't survivability, or the perils of deep striking, or their toughness, it's slow & purposeful.
At least in my case I actually found that Slow and Purposeful compounded DS scatter issues. If you can only move 6" a turn and you scatter 10" backwards when you come in ... well ... you're pretty much done at that point.
A smaller game against Dark Eldar. Mutie has MoN. It came in on turn 4 near a squad of Kabalites (I think 10 of them) with no transport, no upgrades and no backup camping on an objective in their backfield. I only scattered a small distance and did eventually push them off the objective which ended up winning me the game. Barely.
finds a good target, but still.
It DSes in possibly scattering
gets rapid fired by the warriors, possibly dies, probably takes 1 wound.
Next turn it assaults, possibly dies to overwatch or is out of change range(in which case it is dead next turn)
If it gets into assault, it should kill 2 warriors a turn, making them test on Ld 6. If he does take a wound though(they strike first) he is dead. If he takes a wound he is probably dead as he has already taken 1.
If the DE run, they will likely rapid fire the mutilator to death the next turn.
Good, but a lot of risks involved and requires that you find a good target like this. This good target costs 90 points and you disrupted it, possibly killed it for 61 points.
Good, but a lot of risks involved and requires that you find a good target like this. This good target costs 90 points and you disrupted it, possibly killed it for 61 points.
I think you missed something, those 61 points won him the game.
Also, this solo deepstriker is not really a reliable way to run Mutilators. Try taking 3 and starting them on the board.
Plus, for twice as many points, you can take some combi-weapon terminators, who will have the same distraction effect, but are harder to kill, and can actually shoot guns the turn the arrive.
If you really only have 55 points to spend, buy some meltaguns, or something. There are a LOT of ways to fritter points away with CSM that don't involve an assault unit that will never assault.
I'd definitely agree with the consensus that they give penal legionnaires a serious run for their money for worst unit in the game at the moment.
Again, combi-weapon terminators cost about the same as two MoN Obliterators. If we want to talk "for the price," we have to be fair about it. I don't know what you expect to get for 61 points that is a better distraction "for the price." Well, besides Marbo--who is far less survivable.
Firstly, if you're deepstriking that close to an objective, what's the odds that they scatter? Also, they're guaranteed to be in by turn 4, so they're not exactly a surprise contester.
Secondly, what's the point of disruption? Yes, you manage to avert a couple of plasma guns for a turn, so what? Harassment units are terrible in 40k. If they weren't, then all guard players would run penal legionnaires, and sentinels. But they don't. Because they're terrible.
No one said they were a "surprise." I don't know what even qualifies as surprising in a transparent game. I also never said they fit all builds, but I do think disruption has a place. People take Marbo all the time. In 5th, Wolf Scouts were used all the time. I see the Doom of Malantai all the time. The list goes on.
You should always assume that your opponent is as competent as possible. A decent player wouldn't make a mistake like this.
The "running away" was in direct response to a poster here. I don't assume incompetent opponents. However, a poster simply said that he would run his backfield units away--which isn't a solution.
But this doesn't make any sense. Firstly, 2 mutilators aren't THAT much better in close combat than terminators. Secondly, if you can't see the difference between the kind of damage caused by 3 BS4 combi-meltas and NOTHING when they drop in, then I'd question how much you've ever faced off against deepstrikers.
Sigh...I completely understand the role of the 3 combi-melta teminator unit. However, I'd argue that it doesn't have a huge place in the meta anymore. I got to events all the time. The armor that I see in 6th is rare, and usually on flyers. If I was going to drop in 110 points of combi-termies, I'd take combi-plasma.
And once again, you are comparing a 110 point unit to a 61 point unit.
Once again, if the only thing your opponent has to defend their backfield objectives is a few lasguns or bolters, they're doing things very, VERY wrong.
Secondly, yes, things don't need to pay off every game. That said, things that pay off practically never are still bad units.
In the end, it seems that in order to like mutilators...
Hmmmm...again, I go to events all the time. I consistently see min squads running in from reserves to take backfield objectives. Lots of times, MTO lists rely on these units. More often than not, they have to leave them unguarded. Not everyone has a substantial gunline that sits on their own board edge. Successful lists push midfield.
From my experience, a single Mutilator has a good chance to threaten those backfield grabbers. Again, I still wouldn't take it in EVERY list, or even most, but some.
Ok, I've heard a lot of negativity to the unit. Unfortunately in my bull headed ways that means I'm more inspired than ever to run them. I may hate the model, but I think there is a lot of potential in conversions. I think I'll run one unit of three, with marks of MoN. I think I'll augment it with an HQ that can boost/affect their mobility/capabilities. A sorc in terminator armor maybe? I don't have my book handy, any suggestions on the sorc? Other ways to improve on them?
I wouldn't attach characters to them. Part of their effectiveness comes from target saturation. As soon as you start making these guys into "the unit to deal with first" they're going to lose out.
I want to try a Tzeentch Terminator Lord with 3++ leading a unit of Mutilators out of a Land Raider. Even better, someone had the idea of attaching a Sorcerer, that's even better since it conveniently fills the other slot in the Land Raider, makes T-sons Troops, and gives access to Biomancy or Telepathy for extra shenanigans.
JGrand wrote:Take the MoN and think of them as a deep striking Lone Wolf. If you have some leftover points, it isn't like they are competing with much for that Elite spot.
Red Corsair wrote:Simply DS a 55 point mutilator near a weapon emplacement like a squad of missile fangs, biovores or IG artillery or even a vindicare or quad gun and now your oppenent needs to allocate a much higher amount of points in there turn to deal with the threat or let the mutilator charge in an beat there units face.
... for a turn.
That's not much of a distraction for the price.
Plus, for twice as many points, you can take some combi-weapon terminators, who will have the same distraction effect, but are harder to kill, and can actually shoot guns the turn the arrive.
If you really only have 55 points to spend, buy some meltaguns, or something. There are a LOT of ways to fritter points away with CSM that don't involve an assault unit that will never assault.
I'd definitely agree with the consensus that they give penal legionnaires a serious run for their money for worst unit in the game at the moment.
JGrand wrote:If you want to run away from an objective, I'm fine with it. All I'm advocating is that they are at worst, a decent disruption unit.
Firstly, if you're deepstriking that close to an objective, what's the odds that they scatter? Also, they're guaranteed to be in by turn 4, so they're not exactly a surprise contester.
Secondly, what's the point of disruption? Yes, you manage to avert a couple of plasma guns for a turn, so what? Harassment units are terrible in 40k. If they weren't, then all guard players would run penal legionnaires, and sentinels. But they don't. Because they're terrible.
JGrand wrote:In addition, there are plenty of units that don't want to run, lest they risk losing heavy weapon shots or a solid vantage point. Again, points well spent.
You should always assume that your opponent is as competent as possible. A decent player wouldn't make a mistake like this.
JGrand wrote:Finally, if we want to go point for point, 3 Terminators is 95 points, and adding an additional terminator brings the total to 126. 2 MoN Mutilators is 122 points. Aside from those "awesome" combi-bolters, the Terminators are worse. The Mutilators are more survivable due to a higher toughness, have equal wounds and save, and have better close combat options.
But this doesn't make any sense. Firstly, 2 mutilators aren't THAT much better in close combat than terminators. Secondly, if you can't see the difference between the kind of damage caused by 3 BS4 combi-meltas and NOTHING when they drop in, then I'd question how much you've ever faced off against deepstrikers.
JGrand wrote:I don't mind taking some hits from Lasguns and Bolters shot by backfield objective campers....
Mutilators won't pay off every game, but lots of things don't.
Once again, if the only thing your opponent has to defend their backfield objectives is a few lasguns or bolters, they're doing things very, VERY wrong.
Secondly, yes, things don't need to pay off every game. That said, things that pay off practically never are still bad units.
In the end, it seems that in order to like mutilators...
Red Corsair wrote:The question still stands though, have you fielded a solo mutilator in the suggested fashion or are you speaking from pure theory?
... you're stuck between an argument from authority fallacy, or you believe that tiny data sets lead to objective truth.
Excuse me? I think speaking from experience has more merit then someone who has probably never seen the model in person on the table, let alone fielded one in a list. 61 points for a unit that grabs line breaker and forces something like say, one of your pricy as hell vanquishers to fire on it is very much worth the price considering you wouldn't even ID him with any weapon on that platform and he has reasonable odds to survive 200+ points worth of HS firepower, if that vanquisher has a mate guess what? you either ignore him and hope he doesn't wreck them both or you now waste 400+ points on a 61 point unit. If I ds 2 in separately, you now can't hit both. If your using guardsmen to turtle up because of this, your now losing the game in more then half the missions anyway as your too static. Oh wait, that basically sums up 30 or so of your games.
Of all the people to be dissing an unpopular unit choice I wouldn't have guessed it to be the guy who waits out the entirety of 5th to play mech vets and runs hellhounds over vendettas.
Actually I think I rolled a 5, but he had backed up a few inches by then.
That's what happens sometimes, against tau try finding a piece of LOS blocking terrain to gain LB if no good target presents itself. I have to ask though, what intercepted him? If it was a riptide then I would have to say he paid for himself in my opinion as now the riptide can't fire in his next turn and those things cost around quadruple the points. In the game where 30 FW shot him, think about all that fire he soaked and field units that are fast enough to take advantage of him. He won't pay off ever in a gun line chaos list as like in your second game, he may be the only target too often.
That's what happens sometimes, against tau try finding a piece of LOS blocking terrain to gain LB if no good target presents itself. I have to ask though, what intercepted him? If it was a riptide then I would have to say he paid for himself in my opinion as now the riptide can't fire in his next turn and those things cost around quadruple the points. In the game where 30 FW shot him, think about all that fire he soaked and field units that are fast enough to take advantage of him. He won't pay off ever in a gun line chaos list as like in your second game, he may be the only target too often.
Well, like I said, at least with my typical list, I'm not sure this would ever really work well against Tau unless I got spectacularly lucky. My CSM lists tend to be super aggressive and there's almost never any backfield objective camping, but I don't have many DS units either. The issue with the first game (where all the FW shot him) was that he came in on turn 2. With the deployment we rolled and with the terrain set-up we had, he was literally the only thing the FW's could shoot at so he didn't even draw fire away from anything that game. It reminded me of the old Ron White joke; "I didn't know how many guys it would take to kick my arse, but I knew how many they were gonna use!" lol If he had come in a turn or two later he might actually have stood a better chance of properly drawing fire but then that's the risk you take with almost any DS unit.
EDIT:
Still waiting to hear how people manage to get these things all the way across the table without blowing points on a LR. No sarcasm. I would be really interested to hear that.
Still waiting to hear how people manage to get these things all the way across the table without blowing points on a LR. No sarcasm. I would be really interested to hear that.
On foot. I've seen it done enough times that it's convinced me it's not a fluke.
It's something you really have to judge during deployment. If you're opponent is going to come at you, you set them up in your deployment zone and let them be the best counter-assault unit CSM has. If you have to go at your enemy, you deploy normally and just walk if you would benefit from the additional target saturation*. If they're going to be too far away from that (for example, a gunline in Hammer and Anvil), you'll have to deep strike.
* Don't make the assumption that you can and should get a unit to the enemy. No one gets to protect everything in their army, the enemy has a say in that. If Mutilators are high on the list of things to kill, they don't make it, if they are not, they do. Foot gets a bad rap for being immobile, but I've never seen someone who committed to moving an infantry unit be unable to do so while their unit was being ignored.
So the answer is basically, "Very Carefully"? I guess it's just a difference in our local gaming scenes, but I just can't see that working here. By the time they've walked all the way across the board the game will either likely be over, OR something else will have already killed what they were going to go after.
Tycho wrote: By the time they've walked all the way across the board the game will either likely be over, OR something else will have already killed what they were going to go after.
I'm perplexed by this. It takes them 2 turns to get into potential range of the enemy. Your games are over in 2 turns?
Well, my first game last night was! lol I got crushed ... stupid marker lights ...
Really though, no, they are not usually over that fast. The problem is that while it only takes them 2 turns to move 12", most of the rest of my army has moved anywhere from 12-24" and more in some cases (Heldrake) so they are getting passed up by things. Then you take into account the fact that the enemy isn't going to just chill right on the forward most edge of their deployment zone and let these things ramble right up to them AND the fact that you likely will need to either move them through cover and/or screen them and by the time they've gotten to within charge range of a unit it's turn 3 or 4. My local meta plays a lot of fast highly maneuverable armies (although Tau are starting to become gun-line armies), so I am just having trouble imaging catching anything with these. It just feels like you would have to set your entire army up around delivering them.
If your opponent is constantly running away from a 183 point unit, doesn't that say something about that unit? And no, you don't need to move them up in any kind of cover.
I'd be curious to see what list you are running them in. Like I said, I think my two big issues were the Tau (bad match-up for this strategy), and the fact that I'm not sure how well my list would really mesh with them if I were to start them on the board and walk them up. What else do you normally run with them in that case? I'm not saying it isn't possible, I'm just curious to see how others are attempting it.
They might have a place in a beta strike army. And there is nothing to stop you from fielding 3 solo mutilators and another 3 groups of obliterators for a massive deep strike attack.
If you want to play an army which makes better use of mutilators. Try this, it might work.
Nurgle Terminator Lord with power fist and Combi weapon
3 Nurgle Obliterators (veterans not needed cos Lord gives fearless)
2 Nurgle Oblits (vets not needed cos they will focus on the oblit squad with the lord)
2 Nurgle Oblits (vets not needed cos they will focus on the oblit squad with the lord)
3 solo mutilators
Aegis Defense line with Comms relay.
10 cultists
10 CSM, replace with ccw, vets, meltagun
10 CSM, replace with ccw, vets, meltagun
10 CSM, replace with ccw, vets, meltagun
Total: 1997 points.
Turn 1: The spawn move up 12 inches into cover, and he is immediately getting pressured. Oblits and mutis are in reserve. So he only gets to shoot your spawn or shoot your troops. Put your troops in stuff like Rhinos. Now he only gets to pop Rhinos or shoot at T6W3 spawn in his first turn.
Turn 2: Bring down the pain.
Deep strike in the mutis and the Obliterators. Comms relay lets you reroll to come in from reserves, so most should make it. Be careful with your oblits cos those are expensive, but be aggressive with your mutilators. Land those things behind his army, even if that puts them near the table edge. Your oblits can now go to town and shoot up high priority targets, then the chaos spawn charges in and ties down even more targets. The rest of the troops unload from Rhinos, run, etc to get into position for turn 3 strike.
At the end of turn 2, your opponent has nurgle chaos spawn tied up with his frontal units, he got shot up by the oblits, he also has 7 oblits near his army and 3 mutilators in his backfield. And the rest of your army is pressing in from his front. He has nowhere to run. And with your entire army in his face, mutilators may not be his top priority. In fact, because your termi lord is with your 3 man oblit, that will be the main target over anything else.
Turn 3, either you win, or you die, cos everything charges in! lol
Tried running them via proxy, was dismayed by the results.
Walking them is a laugh. If you are moving toward a gunline, they won't live to get close. If the enemy is assaulty or hordes, they will get the charge and you will waste your big hits killing 3 orks/gants/guards and then die to the torrent of hits.
Deep-striking them is a crap shoot. CSM no longer have any DS guidance. While terminators can still shoot combi-weapons at rear armor or rapid-fire after a bad scatter, rolling poorly for Mutilators means they will get shot to death or spend the rest of the game slow-chasing a target.
Getting them a Land Raider is the least bad choice, except you end up with a ridiculously small, point-heavy deathstar with a crappy volume of attacks. It's actually better to have zerkers or even slightly beefed up chaos marines in there, as they can score.
Has no one mentioned, 2 Pfist is a Pfist with +1 attack? They're Termies that can't shoot (not even overwatch), and the benefit they gain is....2 power weapons at S4. No at all worth it. 55pts can add 2 Cult Marines, which, assuming FNP, means his armor save is one better, and he get way more power weapons than he needs but can't sweep run or get a rhino/jump pack, so...
What are you actually gaining?
They aren't atrocious, but their value is, because you gain almost nothing for your points.
cod3x wrote: Has no one mentioned, 2 Pfist is a Pfist with +1 attack? They're Termies that can't shoot (not even overwatch), and the benefit they gain is....2 power weapons at S4. No at all worth it. 55pts can add 2 Cult Marines, which, assuming FNP, means his armor save is one better, and he get way more power weapons than he needs but can't sweep run or get a rhino/jump pack, so...
What are you actually gaining?
They aren't atrocious, but their value is, because you gain almost nothing for your points.
Did you really just skip all the points in this thread and post this gem? No...I'm sure you are the first to consider all of that... all the people who have had actual success in actual games are somehow missing your salient points...
To JGrand and DE. I very much agree with JGrand's Lone Wolf strat, seems like the clearest way to use them.
Disruption units win games. Often they do nothing, but sometimes they rather uniquely win games in ways your others units aren't capable of doing. If taking a 55 to 61 point unit will win me just 1 game out of 10 more, its completely worth it.
Eldenfirefly wrote: They might have a place in a beta strike army. And there is nothing to stop you from fielding 3 solo mutilators and another 3 groups of obliterators for a massive deep strike attack.
If you want to play an army which makes better use of mutilators. Try this, it might work.
Nurgle Terminator Lord with power fist and Combi weapon
3 Nurgle Obliterators (veterans not needed cos Lord gives fearless)
2 Nurgle Oblits (vets not needed cos they will focus on the oblit squad with the lord)
2 Nurgle Oblits (vets not needed cos they will focus on the oblit squad with the lord)
3 solo mutilators
Aegis Defense line with Comms relay.
10 cultists
10 CSM, replace with ccw, vets, meltagun
10 CSM, replace with ccw, vets, meltagun
10 CSM, replace with ccw, vets, meltagun
Total: 1997 points.
Eldenfirefly wrote: Put your troops in stuff like Rhinos. Now he only gets to pop Rhinos or shoot at T6W3 spawn in his first turn.
If we are going by that list that you provided, I am not sure how this can be done as you don't include any Rhinos
Sometimes, there are units that are just not worth shooting at, and other times, there are units that you just can't get a squad over to assault and kill. That's when a deep strike mutilator might come in handy.
Take that squad of 5 marine scouts on the second floor of a ruins sniping at you from turn 1. You either take them out or endure them sniping at you for 5 to 7 turns. Those sniper rifle shots add up!
But they are on 2nd floor and in ruins! Shooting at them is a waste of time. Against dedicated shooting, they can go to ground for a 2+ cover save. Assaulting them is the best option. But are you going to divert your big combat squad of doom over to climb up to second floor of a ruin just to smash one puny scout squad? How many points is one scout squad?
So, that's where the Mutilator comes in handy. Its 61 points. He deep strikes in right on ground floor. Next turn, he climbs up to second floor and beats the snot out of that scout squad. So, you sent a 61 point throw away unit to deal with his irritating back field camping unit. Not only did you clear out a troop that could be really irritating if allowed to live, you are still in a position to score line breaker after that, and you did it efficiently, allowing the bulk of your army to go concentrate on something else.
Of course, he could spend the resources to kill your mutilator, but now he is diverting shooting resources to kill it, which saves your other stuff from being shot at.
Eldenfirefly wrote: They might have a place in a beta strike army. And there is nothing to stop you from fielding 3 solo mutilators and another 3 groups of obliterators for a massive deep strike attack.
If you want to play an army which makes better use of mutilators. Try this, it might work.
Nurgle Terminator Lord with power fist and Combi weapon
3 Nurgle Obliterators (veterans not needed cos Lord gives fearless)
2 Nurgle Oblits (vets not needed cos they will focus on the oblit squad with the lord)
2 Nurgle Oblits (vets not needed cos they will focus on the oblit squad with the lord)
3 solo mutilators
Aegis Defense line with Comms relay.
10 cultists
10 CSM, replace with ccw, vets, meltagun
10 CSM, replace with ccw, vets, meltagun
10 CSM, replace with ccw, vets, meltagun
Total: 1997 points.
Eldenfirefly wrote: Put your troops in stuff like Rhinos. Now he only gets to pop Rhinos or shoot at T6W3 spawn in his first turn.
If we are going by that list that you provided, I am not sure how this can be done as you don't include any Rhinos
Haha, my original list had them. I took it away. If he wants to shoot at a 13 point CSM with a 3+ armor save, he is free to do so as well.
DarknessEternal wrote: I wouldn't attach characters to them. Part of their effectiveness comes from target saturation. As soon as you start making these guys into "the unit to deal with first" they're going to lose out.
That's just the question though. I've got a decent amount of confidence in them once they are in CC, the trick is getting them there. Any thoughts on what a sorc or other HQ choice could bring to the equation? What about infiltrate through Ahriman/Huron? I'm not as familiar with the psychic disciplines, but is there anything that can be done to eliminate the weaknesses?
I mean let's list out the specific problems and work to mitigate them by priority. I reeaaally want to convert some, but I'm against building just to put it on the shelf.
Problems:
1. SnP- keeps them from sweeping combat and running.
2. Hard to mobilize- Options are walk/DS/Landraider
3. Small unit- 3 max
4. ???
I could almost consider going the opposite direction of DarknessEternal, and do Lord(Or special character), sorc, and 3x mutilators for a reasonable deathstar. Maybe ally some demons for another unit/modifier?
I am inclined to say that a single mutilator might well be a good use of 61 pts in some of the lists that i make. Right now I am using units of 3 nurglings (45pts w/ inflitrate) to always get (or always try to get) line breaker.
A mutilator is significantly tougher and more dangerous than said nurglings. I have only really suffered at the hands of a mutilator on one occasion and that was in fact at the hands of 6 that were infiltrated. On paper they dont looks so good but i am willing to try using only 1 as a irritant/distraction unit.
I could almost consider going the opposite direction of DarknessEternal, and do Lord(Or special character), sorc, and 3x mutilators for a reasonable deathstar. Maybe ally some demons for another unit/modifier?
Another option I've played around with in my head is loading them up with a Nurgle Lord on a palanquin, plus a Nurgle sorceror, and loading it all up in a Land Raider. Pretty nasty stack of T5 wounds + maybe Endurance or something.
If you are loading them on a land raider anyway, might as well skip nurgle and go with a killy mark like Khorne. After all, having them in a Land raider means you will most likely get the charge off.
When you start adding charecters to it, you have a deathstar or mini deathstar, so stuff you charge aren't likely to survive, so the slow and purposeful is irrelevant.
Also, if they have a sorceror with them, then they get assault grenades because of the sorceror. So, negates them charging at troops in cover. Same goes for a Lord in power armor (just don't change the lord to termi armor because then it will lose its assault grenades).
Putting two charecters into a unit is really putting a lot of eggs in one basket though.
so what your saying is that if my nurgle lord with blight grenades is in a squad of cultists and both he and the other members of his unit get charged by someone, the blight grenade only reduces the charge bonus against the lord. is that correct.
So as a Space Wolf player, I routinely run 2~3 Lone Wolf units (TDA/SS/CF) every game I play because I know the value of a disruption unit... more so one with a 2+/3++/5+++, 2W, Fearless unit.
There isn't a way to get Maulers to the same level for around 85 pts?
I say go big, or go home. Deep strike those dudes and put them about 9~ out, to save them from the worst scatters, but within threat range on the next turn. It's the same thing as my Lone Wolves getting into combat turn 3 versus gun lines. And trust me, do I know about some rage inducing moments when I'm running 3 Lone Wolves at 2K versus gun lines who start with "Feh, *LASCANNONS*" and then after realizing they are Eternal Warriors with 3++, by Turn 3 they may have killed one and are crying!
If you can get the same mileage out of mutilators, I'd say go for it!
My only concern is that they got the short end of the stick in terms of mutilators. At least Mandrakes have, arguably, some of the coolest models in the game!
Actually, one thing not discussed here. Not sure whether that might work (I myself never tried this).
How about a squad of 3 mutilators (basic), with a terminator sorceror level 3 telephathy. Deep strike them in 12 inches away, then start casting dangerous telephathy spells.
The 3 mutilators here basically serve as a body guard to the sorceror. They won't dare to charge a unit at it unless they have a dedicated cc unit. Even if they do, its probably an even fight (Sorceror has force weapon and termi armor).
If they ignore the unit, then the sorceror is in range of his entire army backline to cast nasty telephaty spells like puppet master, etc. And if we get the opportunity to charge something for an easy win, we can do that too.
For just 165 points, 3 mutilators can provide more bodyguard protection than anything else I can think of in a CSM army, short of putting the sorceror with 5 chaos spawn.
so what your saying is that if my nurgle lord with blight grenades is in a squad of cultists and both he and the other members of his unit get charged by someone, the blight grenade only reduces the charge bonus against the lord. is that correct.
assault grenades are by model, defensive grenades are not.
Eldenfirefly wrote: Actually, one thing not discussed here. Not sure whether that might work (I myself never tried this).
How about a squad of 3 mutilators (basic), with a terminator sorceror level 3 telephathy. Deep strike them in 12 inches away, then start casting dangerous telephathy spells.
The 3 mutilators here basically serve as a body guard to the sorceror. They won't dare to charge a unit at it unless they have a dedicated cc unit. Even if they do, its probably an even fight (Sorceror has force weapon and termi armor).
If they ignore the unit, then the sorceror is in range of his entire army backline to cast nasty telephaty spells like puppet master, etc. And if we get the opportunity to charge something for an easy win, we can do that too.
For just 165 points, 3 mutilators can provide more bodyguard protection than anything else I can think of in a CSM army, short of putting the sorceror with 5 chaos spawn.
That's kind of what I was thinking. Use mobility boosting devices (infiltrate/DS/etc) and get them in a good position. Proceed to threaten a flank with a mini deathstar. I think everybody's concern is that the enemy will shoot the piss out of them though. Rather than position and rely on the sorc, I think I would aim for around terrain or in some kind of blind spot. Out in the open may be the only option though.
I suppose the best defense for getting hammered is over saturation. I would say pair them with bikes, oblits, raptors, etc and time it so everything shows up at approximately the same time. They can't possibly shoot 40% of your army at once. No matter what something will get through to a gunline. Against a CC army you play this same thing but as a counter strike. This will leave a gap for your troops to move up to drop a second strike. Maybe add that landing pad dealy to give you some accuracy?
Sorry if this has already been mentioned, but has anyone given any thought to putting them in a dreadclaw? Seems like it would be pretty effective at higher points levels.
Eldenfirefly wrote: Actually, one thing not discussed here. Not sure whether that might work (I myself never tried this).
How about a squad of 3 mutilators (basic), with a terminator sorceror level 3 telephathy. Deep strike them in 12 inches away, then start casting dangerous telephathy spells.
The 3 mutilators here basically serve as a body guard to the sorceror. They won't dare to charge a unit at it unless they have a dedicated cc unit. Even if they do, its probably an even fight (Sorceror has force weapon and termi armor).
If they ignore the unit, then the sorceror is in range of his entire army backline to cast nasty telephaty spells like puppet master, etc. And if we get the opportunity to charge something for an easy win, we can do that too.
For just 165 points, 3 mutilators can provide more bodyguard protection than anything else I can think of in a CSM army, short of putting the sorceror with 5 chaos spawn.
so that is a 300 point unit at least.
You DS in and pray they dont have any str8+ AP2 blast weapons. Then you pray they dont have too many str 8 AP2 weapons. Each lascannon wound that gets by the 5++ is enough to force a panic check.
Then you dont need to have a dedicated CC unit. A tarpit unit will do. The unit has only 11 attacks at WS4. They ignore armor, but most tarpit units dont care much about armor ignoring attacks do they. Tarpitting will prevent you from casting spells.
If a real unit does come by, your sorcerer HAS to challenge as there are no other characters, so he can easily get locked in with some guy who will whoop him good. An MC for instance will probably eat him before he gets to strike, and then your mutilators are testing on Ld6 to avoid getting cut down.
It's 300 points of non fearless yuck.
Sorcs should be cheap and on a bike. Then you can keep up with spawn or go with bikes. Even if they are with regular marines, you still run them on a bike for T5 and the ability to run away.
Lone Wolf. That is what people are not thinking about. They work for SW's despite similar limitations, they also work fine for Mutilators.
They aren't great, but I used to use 3 singleton Mutilators and found them to usually be worth their points. List composition matters, inmy list they were a minor threat and therefore often were able to complete their task (disruption and harassment).
Must have been missed by a lot of folks, as I keep seeing people say there are no uses for Mutilators. That role fits them perfectly.
No. If you want the particulars you'll have to go back and actually read the entire thread. Suffice it to say there are many who would disagree with that.
so that is a 300 point unit at least.
You DS in and pray they dont have any str8+ AP2 blast weapons. Then you pray they dont have too many str 8 AP2 weapons. Each lascannon wound that gets by the 5++ is enough to force a panic check.
Then you dont need to have a dedicated CC unit. A tarpit unit will do. The unit has only 11 attacks at WS4. They ignore armor, but most tarpit units dont care much about armor ignoring attacks do they. Tarpitting will prevent you from casting spells.
If a real unit does come by, your sorcerer HAS to challenge as there are no other characters, so he can easily get locked in with some guy who will whoop him good. An MC for instance will probably eat him before he gets to strike, and then your mutilators are testing on Ld6 to avoid getting cut down.
It's 300 points of non fearless yuck.
Quoted for agreement. That just doesn't seem efficient. I could see a fluffy use for it, but if you're looking for competitive options, I'm not sure that's the way to go. I have some more games scheduled this weekend (this time NOT against Tau lol) so I'm going to try the tele-mutie trick again because I'm still really curious to see on of these actually do something. I'll report back again like last time, but of the uses suggested in this thread, that's still the only one I can even partially get behind.
Must have been missed by a lot of folks, as I keep seeing people say there are no uses for Mutilators. That role fits them perfectly.
No. If you want the particulars you'll have to go back and actually read the entire thread. Suffice it to say there are many who would disagree with that.
I haven't seen anyone that really disagrees with that, just a bunch of people who clearly don't understand what that role is and how it works.
Don't think you can throw melta bombs ... And yeah, you can't use melta bombs on infantry.
Also, a Sorceror in termi armor with a force weapon is no slouch at fighting. Since its termi armor. Say I use a force axe. So yeah, I may strike last, but most things will bounce off the termi armor anyway. When I do strike, I am hitting you 3 times with a str 5 AP 2 weapon that deals instant death. You better hope I miss. Against any infantry charecter outside of people with eternal warrior, I actually have a pretty good chance of killing because of the AP2 instant death. Even against a guy with a power fist, chances are we kill each other simultaneously.
Monstrous creatures can't challenge unless they are charecters. (Not all of them are). Even if its a charecter, well the sorceror in termi armor still gets his 5++ save and he still causes instant death if he survives to strike back. Its not exactly that one sided a fight.
And Telephathy spells include invisibility? If I get that and cast that on the unit, then good luck hitting me lol.
Even assuming the sorceror dies. Next turn, the monstrous creature is facing 3 mutilators with 3 attacks each. I give good chances they will kill off the monstrous creature (unless its some tooled up Greater Daemon).
I think telephathy also has a spell that basically freezes a unit in place. That's a nice spell to either lock down a unit so he can't run away from you, or lock down a unit which you think is going to be problems in close combat.
In any case, why is it assumed that there will be some big scary CC unit conveniently right next to this unit who will charge it and kill it? You deep strike in this unit, you choose where you want to deep stirke. Surely you aren't going to deep srike this right next to a unit which you know will kill you next turn? It comes in on turn 2. I reckon by then, the big scary cc units are all at least at mid field bearing down on your line or mixing it up with your midfield unit. Deep strike it in his backline which will be the shooty stuff, and the vehicles. I don't think there's any shooty unit that would dare to charge this unit, and vehicles will be running away from this unit lol.
so what your saying is that if my nurgle lord with blight grenades is in a squad of cultists and both he and the other members of his unit get charged by someone, the blight grenade only reduces the charge bonus against the lord. is that correct.
assault grenades are by model, defensive grenades are not.
rage is by model, counterattack is by unit.
Counter attack is in fact NOT by unit, read the whole paragraph and you will see it says to only apply the bonus to MODELS with the counter attack USR.
Also, a Sorceror in termi armor with a force weapon is no slouch at fighting. Since its termi armor. Say I use a force axe. So yeah, I may strike last, but most things will bounce off the termi armor anyway. When I do strike, I am hitting you 3 times with a str 5 AP 2 weapon that deals instant death. You better hope I miss. Against any infantry charecter outside of people with eternal warrior, I actually have a pretty good chance of killing because of the AP2 instant death. Even against a guy with a power fist, chances are we kill each other simultaneously.
Monstrous creatures can't challenge unless they are charecters. (Not all of them are). Even if its a charecter, well the sorceror in termi armor still gets his 5++ save and he still causes instant death if he survives to strike back. Its not exactly that one sided a fight.
3 attacks at ws3 is pretty bad. The force axe is nasty against multiwounded guys, but he does throw out many attacks. There are a number of things that strike at inititive at AP2.
Even things with a powerfist, they often have a ++ save as well. When you are hitting on 4+, then wounding on 3+ or 4+, that isnt even 100% to kill a terminator sergeant, much less one rocking a storm shield. Put another way, the sorc has the combat poential of a singular meganob, not to be confused with a megaboss.
Even assuming the sorceror dies. Next turn, the monstrous creature is facing 3 mutilators with 3 attacks each. I give good chances they will kill off the monstrous creature (unless its some tooled up Greater Daemon).
Except that if the sorc dies, the mutes have to take a break test. They make that only 40% of the time(after losing by 2). Otherwise they are going to run and likely get cut down.
In any case, why is it assumed that there will be some big scary CC unit conveniently right next to this unit who will charge it and kill it? You deep strike in this unit, you choose where you want to deep stirke. Surely you aren't going to deep srike this right next to a unit which you know will kill you next turn? It comes in on turn 2. I reckon by then, the big scary cc units are all at least at mid field bearing down on your line or mixing it up with your midfield unit. Deep strike it in his backline which will be the shooty stuff, and the vehicles. I don't think there's any shooty unit that would dare to charge this unit, and vehicles will be running away from this unit lol.
scary assault units often have a transport delivery system or are jump/bike/beast, meaning they can reliably threaten a 20" bubble. With likely DS deviation either you arent going to be in range to do much to the backfield units or you are probably in their assault range.
I haven't seen anyone that really disagrees with that, just a bunch of people who clearly don't understand what that role is and how it works
Multiple people have disagreed with it and I even tried it in the suggested fashion and reported back. I am of the opinion that the "lone wolf" thing is something that really needs a lot of luck to work.
So anyway, as promised, I tried the lone wolf thing again this weekend as well as the "3 stooges" version where a squad of three start on the board together.
Lone Wolf attempt 1:
Mutie has MoK and teleports in on turn 3 behind some objective camping C:SM scouts armed with bolt pistol and cc weapons. He actually landed perfectly (no scatter). I was about 3" away from them. He ended up dropping a wound on the way in, and died in CC. Killed one scout.
Lone Wolf 2:
Mutie has MoK again. Teleports next to some CSM Havocs but dies due to perils. My opponent allows me to re-roll the scatter and the mutie ends up about 8" away. Four lascannons to the face later he's dead. I guess he effectively drew some fire that game, but I feel like 55 points is a lot to spend on something that's just going to draw fire.
3 Stooges attempt 1:
So this one is probably not the best test because I didn't reconfigure my list too much to account for them. I just cut a bunch of upgrades and slapped in a squad of 3 muties. The problem is that my list is a super fast high pressure aggresive list. Land Raiders, mauler fiends, heldrakes, raptors, etc. I was playing a friend who likes to play really tough games so it's not as jerky as it sounds. lol Anyway, pretty much all of my army passed them up on the way to the other side's deployment area (gun line Tau). They didn't die that game, but they didn't get to kill anything (too slow), and they were too low on the threat ladder to even get shot at. They just got ignored.
Stooges 2:
Made a Nurgle list for this attempt and walked them up field behind a ton of zombies. This worked a lot better as they actually got fairly close. I was playing BA though, and he brought in a squad of jump packed DC. They pretty much wrecked the zombies (I probably should have taken more) AND the Muties in short order. So in this game, the squad was good for tying up a unit of DC for a little while, but in the grand scheme of things that made little difference to the game.
Stooges 3:
Played against DA. I have a list that sometimes include two Forge Fiends. I will often bubble wrap those with cultists. This time I decided to try and run each fiend with it's own body guard of 3 MoK muties. I figured MoK might be the better choice since their role would be to receive assaults to try and defend the FFs. One squad had to deal with Belial and a squad of knights dropping in next to them. The muties on that side got hammered so hard I wouldn't even count them as a speed bump. He made a disordered charge so he hit the FF on that side as well.
On the other side, a squad of 5 regular standard issue DW terminators showed up. These were successfully tar pitted for about two turns before they went down. They took two terminators with them.
SO, TL;DR:
Yeah, I'm still not sold. I feel like there's enough plasma running around these days that this unit isn't the threat it might otherwise have been. If you DS them so much has to go right that it's like hitting the lottery if it works, and even then, this really is a unit that at best, is only going to disrupt or draw fire for a turn or so before it dies. I guess 55-65 pts for a suicide unit isn't too bad, but I don't feel like they are effective enough to warrant even that. They are too easy to ignore if you walk them across the board (they are just soooo slow), and too easy to kill if a DS goes wrong.
EDIT:
I meant to add that the one thing I didn't try, was to DS a squad of 3. That I could see working better as it's a much bigger threat and it would survive longer and do some real damage. The only problem is that the cost of that squad is now competing with a Heldrake and I'm taking the Heldrake almost every single time. I won't be able to play again for a while, but I might try that anyway just to see what happens.
I haven't seen anyone that really disagrees with that, just a bunch of people who clearly don't understand what that role is and how it works
Multiple people have disagreed with it and I even tried it in the suggested fashion and reported back. I am of the opinion that the "lone wolf" thing is something that really needs a lot of luck to work.
So anyway, as promised, I tried the lone wolf thing again this weekend as well as the "3 stooges" version where a squad of three start on the board together.
Lone Wolf attempt 1:
Mutie has MoK and teleports in on turn 3 behind some objective camping C:SM scouts armed with bolt pistol and cc weapons. He actually landed perfectly (no scatter). I was about 3" away from them. He ended up dropping a wound on the way in, and died in CC. Killed one scout.
Lone Wolf 2:
Mutie has MoK again. Teleports next to some CSM Havocs but dies due to perils. My opponent allows me to re-roll the scatter and the mutie ends up about 8" away. Four lascannons to the face later he's dead. I guess he effectively drew some fire that game, but I feel like 55 points is a lot to spend on something that's just going to draw fire.
3 Stooges attempt 1:
So this one is probably not the best test because I didn't reconfigure my list too much to account for them. I just cut a bunch of upgrades and slapped in a squad of 3 muties. The problem is that my list is a super fast high pressure aggresive list. Land Raiders, mauler fiends, heldrakes, raptors, etc. I was playing a friend who likes to play really tough games so it's not as jerky as it sounds. lol Anyway, pretty much all of my army passed them up on the way to the other side's deployment area (gun line Tau). They didn't die that game, but they didn't get to kill anything (too slow), and they were too low on the threat ladder to even get shot at. They just got ignored.
Stooges 2:
Made a Nurgle list for this attempt and walked them up field behind a ton of zombies. This worked a lot better as they actually got fairly close. I was playing BA though, and he brought in a squad of jump packed DC. They pretty much wrecked the zombies (I probably should have taken more) AND the Muties in short order. So in this game, the squad was good for tying up a unit of DC for a little while, but in the grand scheme of things that made little difference to the game.
Stooges 3:
Played against DA. I have a list that sometimes include two Forge Fiends. I will often bubble wrap those with cultists. This time I decided to try and run each fiend with it's own body guard of 3 MoK muties. I figured MoK might be the better choice since their role would be to receive assaults to try and defend the FFs. One squad had to deal with Belial and a squad of knights dropping in next to them. The muties on that side got hammered so hard I wouldn't even count them as a speed bump. He made a disordered charge so he hit the FF on that side as well.
On the other side, a squad of 5 regular standard issue DW terminators showed up. These were successfully tar pitted for about two turns before they went down. They took two terminators with them.
SO, TL;DR:
Yeah, I'm still not sold. I feel like there's enough plasma running around these days that this unit isn't the threat it might otherwise have been. If you DS them so much has to go right that it's like hitting the lottery if it works, and even then, this really is a unit that at best, is only going to disrupt or draw fire for a turn or so before it dies. I guess 55-65 pts for a suicide unit isn't too bad, but I don't feel like they are effective enough to warrant even that. They are too easy to ignore if you walk them across the board (they are just soooo slow), and too easy to kill if a DS goes wrong.
EDIT:
I meant to add that the one thing I didn't try, was to DS a squad of 3. That I could see working better as it's a much bigger threat and it would survive longer and do some real damage. The only problem is that the cost of that squad is now competing with a Heldrake and I'm taking the Heldrake almost every single time. I won't be able to play again for a while, but I might try that anyway just to see what happens.
Problem here is during your lone wolf attempts you didn't listen to the recommended advice and give them MoN.... Mark of Khorne is awful, had you been T5 I doubt you would have did to those lucky pot shots from the SM scouts. Maybe post your usual list up here and I can get a better grasp of why your having so much trouble with the tactic. Either way I am glad you are trying them out, I just feel like they won't work in your standard list possibly, I will try and get a game in with them this weekend and I will share my results.
Aw hell. My bad. Wherever it says MoK it should read MoN. I only gave them the Khorne mark in my last game. My bad. I had Khorne on the brain this morning (working up a World Eaters list). Sorry for the confusion.
You're right that with my regular list they really don't work. I predicted as much in a previous post, but wanted to try it anyway. I would actually like to see a list from those who say they've used them and had success. So far, non of those people have even posted any specific examples ...
EDIT:
My issue with them is that it feels like you need to build the list around them and I'm not sure they are worth that much attention.
Gee, how did the mutilator die fighting scouts? lol Bad luck and rolled a 1? And how come only killed 1? Only 1 attack hit? Once in combat, should have easily bested that scout squad. :(
Basically yes. He SHOULD have bested them, but my ability to roll 1's is near legendary. After the test I ran earlier in the week where the lone Mutie trashed a Kabalite squad I figured the Scouts would be a sure thing. Dropping a wound on the way in didn't help either.
Tycho wrote: Aw hell. My bad. Wherever it says MoK it should read MoN. I only gave them the Khorne mark in my last game. My bad. I had Khorne on the brain this morning (working up a World Eaters list). Sorry for the confusion.
You're right that with my regular list they really don't work. I predicted as much in a previous post, but wanted to try it anyway. I would actually like to see a list from those who say they've used them and had success. So far, non of those people have even posted any specific examples ...
EDIT:
My issue with them is that it feels like you need to build the list around them and I'm not sure they are worth that much attention.
Well I apologies for the lack of results, I have been swamped IRL and haven't been able to get a game in for a while now. Here is an example of a list that utilizes them:
70-ADL-coms relay
158-(2)-MoN Oblits Vets
158-(2)-MoN Oblits Vets
115-Auto Las pred
170- helturkey
170- helturkey
144-(4)-MoN spawn
175-MoN Lord- Bike, B Mace, Combi-(your choice) Melta B, AoDG
165-(5) PM-Rhino, 2 flamers
175-(5) PM-Rhino, 2 melta
61-MoN Mutie
61-MoN Mutie
Demons
190-GUO
90-(10) PB
90-(6) NB
1992
Very Fluffy I think and with the comes relay on turn 2 you should have the spawn+lord, GUO,2 HD, 2 solo muties and possibly PB units or oblits depending on how you reserve all coming in. This is where I like them as they can be guard dogs/tarpits for the PB or when DS they become additional threats to the back field who wants to deal with the GUO and spawn/Lord.
I suspect that the lack of results has more to do with the difference in our local metas than anything else. The types of list I usually face just aren't afraid of something like the Mutilators, so finding a good target for them is often challenging.
Your list looks very interesting. It looks like it's set up more to kill other armies to prevent them from claiming objectives than it is to actually claim them itself. Is that how you play it? Also, where does the Pred. fit in? Thanks for posting that!
Eldenfirefly wrote: Gee, how did the mutilator die fighting scouts? lol Bad luck and rolled a 1? And how come only killed 1? Only 1 attack hit? Once in combat, should have easily bested that scout squad. :(
without VotLW or MoN these guys are neither that killy or that durable.
4 attacks on the charge, half will miss, and then will dual maul you are killing 1.66 (1 or 2) so one is still pretty likely.
The scouts on the other hand have a roughly 85% chance to put a wound on him(2 close combat weapons).
So it is unlucky, but 10 scouts are probably going to get through a mutilator. (it is gonna take a while, but eventually)
As they should. 10 scouts costs more than a mute. 5 scouts and the mute probably wins, but how fast and by what margin are still variable. Roll poorly and he fails his mission in epic fashion.
Roll poorly and he fails his mission in epic fashion.
Which is exactly what I keep running into . So much has to go so perfectly that it seems like either people are exaggerating their success, their local meta is drastically different, OR there's one little trick that seems so obvious to the people using them that they haven't mentioned it yet and you and I are just missing it. Speaking for myself, it wouldn't be the first time I missed something super easy to spot. lol
To be honest, I have had more success with Mutilators killing vehicles over anything else. There was one game I played where a lone mutilator managed to charge and kill a landraider with dual chain fists.
Another game where another lone mutilator charged and took out a lascannon razorback.
To be honest, I have had more success with Mutilators killing vehicles over anything else. There was one game I played where a lone mutilator managed to charge and kill a landraider with dual chain fists.
Another game where another lone mutilator charged and took out a lascannon razorback.
Son of a B*&^H. lol THAT might be the "obvious trick" I mentioned earlier. That's a way better use for them IMO. Unfortunately, I'm the only one at my LGS that still brings vehicles on a regular basis. I can definitely see a place for them in going after vehicles though. 55 points to knock out a tri-las predator or crack a Rhino or two isn't too shabby and seems much easier to accomplish than charging them into infantry. I feel stupid for not realizing that sooner!
Met definitely makes a difference, some armies are awesome at MSU and because of that nature don't mind shooting these guys down, while other armies will have to dedicate much more to them.
In regards to the list I posted, well all my armies follow the same strategy really. Kill their troops first then grab objectives. I find this to be the easiest way to win most scenarios, and don't be fooled, all those units in my list are a PITA to shoot off objectives. The demon units will get shrouding behind the aegis and infiltrating the nurglings means you should have two objectives starting the game with units that won't run and have a 2++ behind the aegis or going to ground in area terrain. Mean while the rest of your army is built to disrupt and contest with extremely resilient offensive units. I find 4 fearless scoring units fine in 1850-2000 pt games, you just need to place enough forward preasure to force you opponent into ignoring your troops.
I love chaos predators, it can be placed behind the ADL or in a ruin and just snipe enemy vehicles all game.
RancidHate wrote: In my matches against armies that fielded Muitilators they have never reached close combat, ever.
One DE Ravager + well... anything IDs them for breakfast.
You must have missed the 300 times it has been suggested to give them Mark of Nurgle, making such a scenario impossible.
Also, one of the primary purposes of a disruption unit is to get shot at. If you can have the opponent commit two or more units to removing a 61 point unit, that unit has done its job, even if its dead. Occasionally, terrain and circumstances will allow the unit to steal VPs, and then you just got (or denied) VPs with a 61 point unit. That's how you win games, my friends.
RancidHate wrote: In my matches against armies that fielded Muitilators they have never reached close combat, ever.
One DE Ravager + well... anything IDs them for breakfast.
You must have missed the 300 times it has been suggested to give them Mark of Nurgle, making such a scenario impossible.
Also, one of the primary purposes of a disruption unit is to get shot at. If you can have the opponent commit two or more units to removing a 61 point unit, that unit has done its job, even if its dead. Occasionally, terrain and circumstances will allow the unit to steal VPs, and then you just got (or denied) VPs with a 61 point unit. That's how you win games, my friends.
Meh, I suppose I should've mentioned that I tabled the opponent that brought them in 3 separate matches and, that the opponent was tactically unwise enough to spend the Mark of Nurgle points on them. I concede that had he spent the 15 little points, they would be much harder to deal with as 6 5+inv saves are, in reality if not mathematically, more than twice as difficult to punch through as 3 5+inv saves.
