To kill farsight/shadowsun deathstar you need ap3 pie plates/flamers, but a good tau guy can spread out using drones to space out the suits so these do less damage than you think.....
I fought a guy with 2... basilisks? the ap3 pie plates of doom with my farsight/shadowsun bomb, he got two turns of shooting before i dropped them and he kill 3 suits and 5 drones with the ordnance (and other shooting) it would have done more but at the juicy spot i put the iradium suit with 2+ armor and he saved everytime.
assault does ok some times, but not usually, the shooting + overwatch + tau melee (it isnt that bad, lol, well farsight is good, and the suits are giving out 3 str 5 hits each)
Kill the model with Vectored retro thrusters, so they lose H&R, then assault with unit of choice. So barrage on top of the guy, or lots of precision shots.
The Eldar have a few ways to combat the deathstar.
1 Fortuned harlies (coming out of 2+ cover) and then the Avatar coming in to wreck s**t after all the rending is done with. Don't forget about doom!
2 Night Spinners. Large pie plate that has rending, barrage, and makes it so they have to move out of difficult AND dangerous terrain. Don't forget the pinning check!
Really anything that has rending would do well against the group along with AP 2 weps
GTKA666 wrote: The Eldar have a few ways to combat the deathstar.
1 Fortuned harlies (coming out of 2+ cover) and then the Avatar coming in to wreck s**t after all the rending is done with. Don't forget about doom!
Cover save means nothing to the farsight bomb as they all have ignore cover. So you are left with a 5++ rerollable which the farsight bomb will tear apart. Avatar will also have a problem against the bomb as he is kinda slow.
2 Night Spinners. Large pie plate that has rending, barrage, and makes it so they have to move out of difficult AND dangerous terrain. Don't forget the pinning check!
Nightspinner is pretty good against the bomb. Jet packs ignore difficult terrain but the dangerous terrain will probably cause a death or two.
Really anything that has rending would do well against the group along with AP 2 weps
Many farsight bombs have shadowsun so rending and ap2 don't matter vs the cover save.
My nurgle CSM were dropped like a bad habit by that Shadowsight Deathstar.
I'm going to try out the Slaanesh MSU Blastmaster spam w. 2 Heldrakes and DSing oblits during the next tourney. 6 Blastmasters per turn have to at least dent their drone reserves until the drakes fly in and mop up the suits. Hopefully I'll get an instakill or two with the BMs.
Fire dragons, d-cannons, i5/jump infantry, dirge caster rhinos, riptides with ignore cover/interceptor, playing the objective game, warp quake, coteaz, ymgarls... to name a few.
Wierdly enough a Farsight bombs worst enemy is other Tau.
Markerlights, another Farsight bomb, or just the multispectrum suit is enough to remove the cover ( if they use Shadowsun ) and most of the weaponry of the Tau is pretty good against their own.
GTKA666 wrote: The Eldar have a few ways to combat the deathstar.
1 Fortuned harlies (coming out of 2+ cover) and then the Avatar coming in to wreck s**t after all the rending is done with. Don't forget about doom!
Cover save means nothing to the farsight bomb as they all have ignore cover. So you are left with a 5++ rerollable which the farsight bomb will tear apart. Avatar will also have a problem against the bomb as he is kinda slow.
I completely forgot about the cover save destroying tau....Then again don't they just have smart missiles which ignore cover and their regular guns don't? If that is the case TL ignoring cover isn't all that spectacular since I have a 50% chance to get a 5++ including the reroll.
GTKA666 wrote: Then again don't they just have smart missiles which ignore cover and their regular guns don't?
There's a one-per-army special system that lets you give up shooting to make the rest of the squad ignore cover with ALL of their weapons. The standard Farsight bomb always has one support suit with that and the similar one that makes your weapons all twin-linked, so the rest of the squad (up to 6 models + attached ICs) will always ignore cover with everything.
anything that makes deepstrikers cry
or killing the ground units turn one
or intercepter
footcron has plenty of hard counters,death marks, imotek,wraith, dispertion sheid lich guard, earthshaker cryptek i forget the actual name but the one that makes all terain dangerous
njal stormcaller
nurgle spawn backed up by dirgecaster rhinos with ksons
baleflamers the burning brand of skalthrax
quadgun,icarus las canon
playing a thousand point game
objectives as stated
oblits
to just name a few from various codice
GTKA666 wrote: Then again don't they just have smart missiles which ignore cover and their regular guns don't?
There's a one-per-army special system that lets you give up shooting to make the rest of the squad ignore cover with ALL of their weapons. The standard Farsight bomb always has one support suit with that and the similar one that makes your weapons all twin-linked, so the rest of the squad (up to 6 models + attached ICs) will always ignore cover with everything.
Glad I know this now before going in blind against a Farsight bomb. Time for Warp Spiders to have a game of cat and mouse and lure them closer to the harlies and other units so they soak up the overwatch and not the harlies
MaCa wrote: My nurgle CSM were dropped like a bad habit by that Shadowsight Deathstar.
I'm going to try out the Slaanesh MSU Blastmaster spam w. 2 Heldrakes and DSing oblits during the next tourney. 6 Blastmasters per turn have to at least dent their drone reserves until the drakes fly in and mop up the suits. Hopefully I'll get an instakill or two with the BMs.
I play Tau and my best mate plays Slaanesh Chaos. Blastmasters are the bane of my Crisis...in fact anything but my Riptides. The Helldrakes may have a problem if you dont get rid of the Tau interceptors/anti-air units but the Blastmasters will do a solid job of dismantling the Farsight bomb, from personal experience anyway. In our last game I even lost 2 broadsides to blast masters although I did roll 2 1's for the saving throws the S8 instagibed them outright.
Dracoknight wrote: Wierdly enough a Farsight bombs worst enemy is other Tau.
Markerlights, another Farsight bomb, or just the multispectrum suit is enough to remove the cover ( if they use Shadowsun ) and most of the weaponry of the Tau is pretty good against their own.
I am a Tau player and the shadowsight "wave" as I like to call it, is one of my three primary lists and I completely agree with Dracoknight. It is literally the scariest thing to play against in my opinion.
Considering that a farsight bomb is usually around a 1000 points with drones its 28 models. Said tau player must have at least 28firewarriorson the table. your looking at about 1500 points right there. 2/3 of which is in reserve. just Dakka his little remaining guys to death on turn one and that over costed unit will never see the light of day.
Helturkeys and Noisemarines would be nice. I think the DP would get shot down too quickly. I would rather have a biker lord with burning brand.
I think hordes will work. Most Farsight bombs I see people listing are all melta/plasmaed out. Hordes of ork boyz should give them trouble by controlling the board and taking too many shots to kill. Play the mission, kill all the supporting firewarriors/kroot and have a ton of scoring bodies on objectives that cannot be moved. Gotta worry about riptides though...
Helturkeys and Noisemarines would be nice. I think the DP would get shot down too quickly. I would rather have a biker lord with burning brand.
I think hordes will work. Most Farsight bombs I see people listing are all melta/plasmaed out. Hordes of ork boyz should give them trouble by controlling the board and taking too many shots to kill. Play the mission, kill all the supporting firewarriors/kroot and have a ton of scoring bodies on objectives that cannot be moved. Gotta worry about riptides though...
don't most farsight bombs include 14 gun drones? 28 s5 shots+ all that melta and plasma daka makes quicker work of hordes than you think. Anything you can use to quickly kill 1k points can be reliably used to kill of the farsight bomb.
Tau are actually a pretty good hard counter for other Tau. That nasty Farsight/Shadowsun bomb wont be all that scary once it stares down the sights of markerlight assisted Ionheads and/or Iontides
Mali wrote: Considering that a farsight bomb is usually around a 1000 points with drones its 28 models. Said tau player must have at least 28firewarriorson the table. your looking at about 1500 points right there. 2/3 of which is in reserve. just Dakka his little remaining guys to death on turn one and that over costed unit will never see the light of day.
What? No...just, no. Reserves are declared on a unit by unit basis, not by model count. If my 28 model unit is just farsight/shadowsun/bodyguard then as long as I have 3 other units of any type to deploy there's no issue.
Mali wrote: Considering that a farsight bomb is usually around a 1000 points with drones its 28 models. Said tau player must have at least 28firewarriorson the table. your looking at about 1500 points right there. 2/3 of which is in reserve. just Dakka his little remaining guys to death on turn one and that over costed unit will never see the light of day.
What? No...just, no. Reserves are declared on a unit by unit basis, not by model count. If my 28 model unit is just farsight/shadowsun/bodyguard then as long as I have 3 other units of any type to deploy there's no issue.
your right on the model vs unit count aspect. this is what I get for posting before the coffee hits the brain =P. I just know if I can shoot down 20 rubrics, 2 spawns and 2 oblits in one turn of shooting while my friend keeps his 10 termies and 2 Sorcerer in reserves I can probably do the same thing with tau.
the point is if your going to keep half to two thirds of your armies points in reserve I can probabaly shoot the rest of your army to death in turn one. i tend to play fast armies that can unload almost all my firepower on turn one shooting.
Mathhammer: my 1500 points of what ever stands a really good chance of killing your 500 points of remaining tau
D-cannons, as some already mentioned, are pretty decent though I would probably take Dark Reapers over D-Cannons.
But to tell you the truth, if the enemy knows what they are doing, it's going to b a tough one to crack. Your armor saves couldn't matter less to a Farsight bomb and neither does toughness or AV.
They only get to Overwatch once though. So if you charge them with two units, one will arrive. So charge the lesser unit, let it die (and no unit will be a waste considering that you're about to kill 900+ points) and then beat them silly with their own legs. it takes two units to do it. It's actually not that hard to GET two units into combat with them, since they like to jump in on ya. You just have to be ready for your opportunity.
LandRaiders are good lures because if the Farsight bomb comes in to kill it plus another unit, and if you deploy well, a unit can safely hide behind it. No matter what you will likly lose the LR and a unit, but afterwards, the unit inside can charge with the unit that was held back. A fleet Deathcompany Furioso is a great choice but there are others of course.
Bring enough models, space out to maximum 2" coherency and leave no spaces in your backfield. Force them to shoot stuff you dont care as much about and then focus all your firepower on the unit. I've played it a few times and had absolutely no issue with them. Elite armies are going to be in trouble though.
Use your deployment/movement to predict where he will drop the bomb. If you can predict about where it will come in you will stand a much better chance against it.
UnadoptedPuppy wrote: Use your deployment/movement to predict where he will drop the bomb. If you can predict about where it will come in you will stand a much better chance against it.
Good movement and spacing as well as awareness of ranges will also allow you to control his targets, taking away what is IMO the best thing about that unit.
Mali wrote: Considering that a farsight bomb is usually around a 1000 points with drones its 28 models. Said tau player must have at least 28firewarriorson the table. your looking at about 1500 points right there. 2/3 of which is in reserve. just Dakka his little remaining guys to death on turn one and that over costed unit will never see the light of day.
What? No...just, no. Reserves are declared on a unit by unit basis, not by model count. If my 28 model unit is just farsight/shadowsun/bodyguard then as long as I have 3 other units of any type to deploy there's no issue.
your right on the model vs unit count aspect. this is what I get for posting before the coffee hits the brain =P. I just know if I can shoot down 20 rubrics, 2 spawns and 2 oblits in one turn of shooting while my friend keeps his 10 termies and 2 Sorcerer in reserves I can probably do the same thing with tau.
the point is if your going to keep half to two thirds of your armies points in reserve I can probabaly shoot the rest of your army to death in turn one. i tend to play fast armies that can unload almost all my firepower on turn one shooting.
Mathhammer: my 1500 points of what ever stands a really good chance of killing your 500 points of remaining tau
I deploy my farsun bomb for that reason. Shadowsun's warlord trait is far more useful throughout the game compared to farsight.
if you deploy it its not a bomb and i have plenty of time to wittle it down before it gets to me
the reason a farsun bomb is so deadly is because it doesnt have to waddle up the field to be effective
of course if you do deploy it and jet pack move forward its just as good as regular jump armies
and is susceptible to the same thing as jump armies
UnadoptedPuppy wrote: Use your deployment/movement to predict where he will drop the bomb. If you can predict about where it will come in you will stand a much better chance against it.
Good movement and spacing as well as awareness of ranges will also allow you to control his targets, taking away what is IMO the best thing about that unit.
Exactly. In my experience this is the best and most consistent way to deal with it. You're going to take losses, minimize them. Unfortunately for elite armies this prove MUCH more difficult.
I love these threads with responses by people who never played it or played against it that think they can beat it.
Here are my credentials I use the farsight/shadowsun Death Star at 1500
first off a good player WILL NOT DEEPSTRIKE IT
You want all that shooting from turn 1, shadowsuns 3d6 jump is vastly superior.
All the suits have 2 wounds, one suit woll have 2+ save, and you can space suits out with drones between them. Hellturkies are not even remotely scary....
The ONLY scary thing I have faced and we tooled a list for it was an if list with a unit of str 8 ap 3 large blasts with a space marine librarian letting them reroll scatter...
He did DMg but I killed them all in turn 2 with the help of my 2 riptides.
ANYONE can tool a list to beat it, but most standard lists don't bring enough tools (but they soon will or face an auto loss)
Go read my tactical thread I did my homework.
To the guy saying he can kill the rest of the list it is not easy
1500 Pts
The Death Star
4x Kroot squads of 10 (they infiltrate and/or bubble wrap)
2 riptides with interceptor which you can't kill easily.
Hope I didn't come off snide, I am sick and hopped up on pills.
Tau Empire suffers from new codex syndrome asnd people are being carried away by all the toys.
Especially as comments are being made, and agreed with that Tau are best at defeating Tau.
Frankly Tau have a fair number of shortcomings also. They generally lack for template weapons having only the riptide, airburst frag, upgraded Hammerhead and flamers. Template weapon light armies can more easily get ganked by hordes.
Now Tau have plenty of answers to horde armies but frankly Farsgight deathstar isnt one of them. To run Farsight properly you need other battlesuits in support and despite all the nastiness it all eats into the bodycount. And for all the razzamatazz the answer to the nifty suits is lots and lots of basic guns. Sure you can get shields and drones everywhere, but they aren't cheap, lasguns however are. Hose down the battlesuits with enough basic firepower and the drones will fall, then light up whats left.
Tau are generally awesome as a firepower army, but in their own way IG can match them, as can others. Please dont get dazzled by the new Tau toys, yes they are nasty and yes there is good synergy, but the Tau player has to pay up for them, this eats into the fire volume. Farsight lists can very easily cross the point of diminishing return and offer the advantage back to the horde player with more models than can be effectively dealt with.
Orlanth wrote: Tau Empire suffers from new codex syndrome asnd people are being carried away by all the toys.
Especially as comments are being made, and agreed with that Tau are best at defeating Tau.
Frankly Tau have a fair number of shortcomings also. They generally lack for template weapons having only the riptide, airburst frag, upgraded Hammerhead and flamers. Template weapon light armies can more easily get ganked by hordes.
Now Tau have plenty of answers to horde armies but frankly Farsgight deathstar isnt one of them. To run Farsight properly you need other battlesuits in support and despite all the nastiness it all eats into the bodycount. And for all the razzamatazz the answer to the nifty suits is lots and lots of basic guns. Sure you can get shields and drones everywhere, but they aren't cheap, lasguns however are. Hose down the battlesuits with enough basic firepower and the drones will fall, then light up whats left.
Tau are generally awesome as a firepower army, but in their own way IG can match them, as can others. Please dont get dazzled by the new Tau toys, yes they are nasty and yes there is good synergy, but the Tau player has to pay up for them, this eats into the fire volume. Farsight lists can very easily cross the point of diminishing return and offer the advantage back to the horde player with more models than can be effectively dealt with.
I fought an ork army with 3 units of 30 shootas and he gave up on turn 3.
10 gun drones are 20 str 5 ap 5 shots that pin add 7 rapid fire plasma for 14 shots, 8 missiles, and 4 fusion....that are all twin linked ignore cover and can shoot at different targets, I neutered 3 shoots mobs in 1 turn (second turn)
Turn 1 neutered his 6 bikers and biker boss down to the pain boy and boss at 24" range.
I dont think anyone said it was "easy". I'd never make such a boast against this kind of power. People need to understand that a unit that can literally END four units in two turns of ANY sort can QUICKLY destroy your ability to respond. Its quite a shock to the system.
Battle Psyker squads might be a very strong counter. Take a couple of those, and the unit may not be around long. But how many armies have that? They might start having them soon...
But the point is, You can wilt and lay down and pretend like theres no answer...Or find the answer.
Thats what tactics threads are for and thats what w eare doing: positing good ways to approach this problem,.
Vanguard Veterans might be a good counter here. Charge the unit with a normal space Marine or terminator unit from a landraider (and it WILL get overwatched) and then follow up with the Vanguard. Or vice versa. They only get one Overwatch.
Now I think the Space Marine flyer (the bumblebee) can be a great help to that strategy.
Another fun strategy is to charge the unit with 2 Gun drones off of a Devilfish..and then charge the unit for realsies with allied Vanguard or terminators. Maybe hit em with the Gets Hot thing before you do. THAT would be funny. Go ahead. Fire Overwatch. Lol.
I personally think its just totally unfluffy to run Shadowsun with Farsight in a unit. But that wont stop anyone whose needs to win at any cost, even his fluffy soul. But Ill say this much: I will tailor the hell outta my list if i see this coming. And I wont even feel bad about it. I just really dislike the whole idea of it. It's kinda like my distaste for Orks and Tau EVER being allies. It's just wrong.
Theorius wrote: I love these threads with responses by people who never played it or played against it that think they can beat it.
Here are my credentials I use the farsight/shadowsun Death Star at 1500
first off a good player WILL NOT DEEPSTRIKE IT
You want all that shooting from turn 1, shadowsuns 3d6 jump is vastly superior.
I would always pick a defence line with com so you can have the option to deepstrike with a reroll. Sum armies will have a lot a shooting first turn and could take a big chunk of your bomb. Not in a 1500 point list though but I play a lot of 1700+ games.
All the suits have 2 wounds, one suit woll have 2+ save, and you can space suits out with drones between them. Hellturkies are not even remotely scary....
3 of them still are. Without skyfire its still hard to take them down and the could still take out your scoring units(kroot) instead.
The ONLY scary thing I have faced and we tooled a list for it was an if list with a unit of str 8 ap 3 large blasts with a space marine librarian letting them reroll scatter...
He did DMg but I killed them all in turn 2 with the help of my 2 riptides.
ANYONE can tool a list to beat it, but most standard lists don't bring enough tools (but they soon will or face an auto loss)
You right about that because it's a hard setup in a 1500 list. But have you played this bomb in a 2000+ list? If you have, have you played against good TAC list? If you only play against standard ork armies that run towards you I can predict the outcome.
The farsight bomb is possibly the best deathstar in 40k right now. It has a huge number of wounds, great mobility and amazing firepower. From what I have seen of the farsight bomb, if you are not prepared for it you are going to be crushed.
I think the problem i have with this thread is people say they can easily counter it with x unit but they are not playing x unit. It will be some time before we see if the bomb will be prevalent enough for you to delicate space in your army to combat it, But the armies that aren't ready for it get rolled over by it. And this the main advantage of the bomb right now. You can build a list to fight the bomb but it will hurt your match-ups against other armies or you can ignore the bomb and hope not to face it. Right now I would say it is best to ignore the bomb unless someone at your store is playing it regularly.
The bomb still suffers from the same problem all jump armies do dangerous terrain checks , template weapons and mass fire it is an elite army and as such can be countered the same way any elite army is it is not a cheese factor to me i refuse to actually bring cheese in my lists and am still fairly sucessful no model in 40k intimadates me no unit comp is undefeatable its simply a matter of finding its weakness and exploiting it and that has always been my motto wargaming the mere fact that this is being posted online means this tactic no longer has the same shock value and will quickly fade into history the same as any other
adapt or die
I dont think anyone said it was "easy". I'd never make such a boast against this kind of power. People need to understand that a unit that can literally END four units in two turns of ANY sort can QUICKLY destroy your ability to respond. Its quite a shock to the system.
Battle Psyker squads might be a very strong counter. Take a couple of those, and the unit may not be around long. But how many armies have that? They might start having them soon...
But the point is, You can wilt and lay down and pretend like theres no answer...Or find the answer.
Thats what tactics threads are for and thats what w eare doing: positing good ways to approach this problem,.
Vanguard Veterans might be a good counter here. Charge the unit with a normal space Marine or terminator unit from a landraider (and it WILL get overwatched) and then follow up with the Vanguard. Or vice versa. They only get one Overwatch.
Now I think the Space Marine flyer (the bumblebee) can be a great help to that strategy.
Another fun strategy is to charge the unit with 2 Gun drones off of a Devilfish..and then charge the unit for realsies with allied Vanguard or terminators. Maybe hit em with the Gets Hot thing before you do. THAT would be funny. Go ahead. Fire Overwatch. Lol.
I personally think its just totally unfluffy to run Shadowsun with Farsight in a unit. But that wont stop anyone whose needs to win at any cost, even his fluffy soul. But Ill say this much: I will tailor the hell outta my list if i see this coming. And I wont even feel bad about it. I just really dislike the whole idea of it. It's kinda like my distaste for Orks and Tau EVER being allies. It's just wrong.
Most of these will not help you, but I don't know what battle psykers do.
You are right about the meta may change as some units are scary to it that people don't use much such as tzeetch flamers who are jump infantry with invulnerable saves and a ap3 flamer....
Some of the ig artillery but they don't get but 1 MAYBE 2 turns to do g before they die...it's not easy to hide a basilisk out sight...((even if you can I will move my riptides within 36" and nova charge to shoot 8 twin linked SMS PER SUIT(no Los needed, ignore cover, str 7)
Hell drakes in multiples but my riptides have interceptor (4x2 suits SMS at one turkey I can hurt em)
Theorius wrote: I love these threads with responses by people who never played it or played against it that think they can beat it.
Here are my credentials I use the farsight/shadowsun Death Star at 1500
first off a good player WILL NOT DEEPSTRIKE IT
You want all that shooting from turn 1, shadowsuns 3d6 jump is vastly superior.
I would always pick a defence line with com so you can have the option to deepstrike with a reroll. Sum armies will have a lot a shooting first turn and could take a big chunk of your bomb. Not in a 1500 point list though but I play a lot of 1700+ games.
All the suits have 2 wounds, one suit woll have 2+ save, and you can space suits out with drones between them. Hellturkies are not even remotely scary....
3 of them still are. Without skyfire its still hard to take them down and the could still take out your scoring units(kroot) instead.
The ONLY scary thing I have faced and we tooled a list for it was an if list with a unit of str 8 ap 3 large blasts with a space marine librarian letting them reroll scatter...
He did DMg but I killed them all in turn 2 with the help of my 2 riptides.
ANYONE can tool a list to beat it, but most standard lists don't bring enough tools (but they soon will or face an auto loss)
You right about that because it's a hard setup in a 1500 list. But have you played this bomb in a 2000+ list? If you have, have you played against good TAC list? If you only play against standard ork armies that run towards you I can predict the outcome.
What choice does the ork guy have other than trying to close with me? He can't hide and cover is ignored, his only chance is to pen me in which he tried. It was a good tac list.
I don't play 2000+ takes to long and is inbalanced (haha)
But 1999 I don't see any change I would have 3 riptides a broadside missile spam unit and more Kroot bubble wrap.
I may ally in a far seer on a bike for his psychic powers dunno...we play 1500 right now as the next tourney (kublakan) is going to be 1500.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
lambsandlions wrote: The farsight bomb is possibly the best deathstar in 40k right now. It has a huge number of wounds, great mobility and amazing firepower. From what I have seen of the farsight bomb, if you are not prepared for it you are going to be crushed.
I think the problem i have with this thread is people say they can easily counter it with x unit but they are not playing x unit. It will be some time before we see if the bomb will be prevalent enough for you to delicate space in your army to combat it, But the armies that aren't ready for it get rolled over by it. And this the main advantage of the bomb right now. You can build a list to fight the bomb but it will hurt your match-ups against other armies or you can ignore the bomb and hope not to face it. Right now I would say it is best to ignore the bomb unless someone at your store is playing it regularly.
The only post in this thread I agree 100% with!!!
If your following the Death Star grudges match thread the only deathstar that can compete is a Deldar star which has two problems.
1. Eldar are getting a new codec so this star might not exist anymore soon.
2. In a real army on army the Deldar can be stopped by bubble wrap easily so they can't assault
Land Raiders are good lures because if the Farsight bomb comes in to kill it plus another unit, and if you deploy well, a unit can safely hide behind it. No matter what you will likly lose the LR and a unit, but afterwards, the unit inside can charge with the unit that was held back. A fleet Deathcompany Furioso is a great choice but there are others of course.
Thumbs up for the Land Raider ploy. The Farsight Bomb finally gave me a chance to break my CSMLR out of mothballs AND actually use the Khornate terminators with twin lightning claws I modeled up ages ago. Draw them in with the LR, trap them in with a cultist blob that soaks up the overwatch and smack them around with 5 lightning clawed whirlwinds of doom. I also did something similar with a gunline of Baal predator and a huge squad of DC.
The nice thing is, that while that trick is only likely to work once or twice, it makes the FS bomb a lot more timid in future games because a lot of players will assume you have that trick up your sleeve every game. It's tough to sacrifice the points of a unit like a LR, but sometimes you have to trade pain for victory. lol
i would think nob bikers would be quite effective they are faster and brutal in.CC especially with PK send in a unit of warbikers to soak up the overwatch then charge your nobs in krump the guy who gives them hit and run and then just crush them roll up a unit of boyz and just swamp em
Automatically Appended Next Post: The longer you keep em in combat the more they become a giant points sink
Crimson-King2120 wrote: i would think nob bikers would be quite effective they are faster and brutal in.CC especially with PK send in a unit of warbikers to soak up the overwatch then charge your nobs in krump the guy who gives them hit and run and then just crush them roll up a unit of boyz and just swamp em
No the wont...
Tau shooting ignores coversaves and the cannot get within charge range without getting at least 1 round of shooting in their face.
You want a TAC List with orks that could possibly handle the Bomb?
warboss with mega armor (and stuff)
mek with KFF
10 loota's
10 loota's
10 loota's
20 shootaboyz
20 shootaboyz
17 shootaboyz with powerclaw nob
3 battlewagons with extra armor and deathrolla's
defence line
about 1500 points
2 options:
1: rush with the battlewagons towards the bomb with all the shootaboyz and warboss and mek in the middle to keep 5+ coversave. Mek could take those first overwatch shots (let him die!!) and then the warboss with 2+/5+ save could take the next. Loota's go behind defence line.
2: you could also shoot! Loota's shoot from the battlewagons and shootaboyz are used for bubblewrap (with defence line protection).
Crimson-King2120 wrote: i would think nob bikers would be quite effective they are faster and brutal in.CC especially with PK send in a unit of warbikers to soak up the overwatch then charge your nobs in krump the guy who gives them hit and run and then just crush them roll up a unit of boyz and just swamp em
No the wont...
Tau shooting ignores coversaves and the cannot get within charge range without getting at least 1 round of shooting in their face.
You want a TAC List with orks that could possibly handle the Bomb?
warboss with mega armor (and stuff)
mek with KFF
10 loota's
10 loota's
10 loota's
20 shootaboyz
20 shootaboyz
17 shootaboyz with powerclaw nob
3 battlewagons with extra armor and deathrolla's
defence line
about 1500 points
2 options:
1: rush with the battlewagons towards the bomb with all the shootaboyz and warboss and mek in the middle to keep 5+ coversave. Mek could take those first overwatch shots (let him die!!) and then the warboss with 2+/5+ save could take the next. Loota's go behind defence line.
2: you could also shoot! Loota's shoot from the battlewagons and shootaboyz are used for bubblewrap (with defence line protection).
I agree on nob bikers, I killed 6 of them (painboy+cybork) + warboss easily with shooting/overwatch and one assault (farsight can hang bro!!) If it was a nob death star with 12 of them might be a bit challenging but i would stall them with bubble wrap as best i could.
Here is math hammer on one round of rapid fire shooting - 14 plasma ( 2 at bs 5) 4-5 wounds, 4 fusion (2 at bs 5) 1.5wounds - 8 missiles (1 wound) 20 pulse carbines (3 wounds) (the unit was at 10" awaybut killing 4-5 bikers gets them..2-3 inches? then jumps 3d6 average 10" back (usually behind a bubble wrap kroot but lets say the lootas killed them all) the nobs move 12" and need an 10-11" charge to reach them and i get to overwatch even if they fail. Overwatch kills another 1-2....
it is not good for the nobs!
THAT LIST I THINK HAS A CHANCE! I am scared of getting within melta range to pop trucks as if i fail im getting deffrolled which sucks, which also puts me way to close to the orks that fall out.
this list might work actually!!
The lootas are raped turn 1 from 30 str 7 ignore cover missiles (if my nova charge goes off for double sms shots from both riptides). I would shoot 16 into one unit 8 into another killing/breaking them. 10-15 lootas are not scary to the bomb which is behind cover or bubble wrap for 2+ saves. The riptides are even less scary (even though the only thing to kill a riptide in 5 games was a loota team...well nova did 2 wounds, deffkopta got 1, lootas finished off with max shots)
I am going to do some mathhammer on what 2 riptides and the deathstar can do to 3 battlewagons....the riptides will have to use the str 8 blast or nova charge to str 9 large blast.....the battlewagons i assume are in tight formation to limit side armor shots? if I go MAX 18" range with the suits for 4 fusion shots i can do...1 glance? a turn at best....plus the riptides....it doesnt look good unless i can get juicy side/rear armor
thankfully wagons dont inhibit my ability to manuaver to bad. My basic strategy would be to kill one at range at least, then move into melta range, farsight charges one, melta the other (if im super desperate) but i am hoping i can kill one at safe range...get into melta range 9" kill 2 with melta, then jump back 3d6(10" on average) so the boys cant assault me.
maybe it would not be as hard as I thought. gonna do some math hammer.
LAND RAIDER COMMENT - My first fight ever was against a DA player with a landraider with the powerfield, nightshroud bikes, termies in the land raider. I killed him handily. (PRE-POWERFIELD NERF)
he planned to try the 2 landraider with powerfiled option but that recently got nerfed...
I completely agree the Farsight bomb is brutal, and one of the rare deathstars that is going to do well in a Tac environment.
However, I think an IG + MEQ Arty platform list will roll it. Sabres own any deep strike list, and if starts on the board, Earthshaker platforms with prescience are going to be a bad day. You agree the Basilisk is a bad matchup, Earthshaker platforms are worse. It's the same gun, with a much smaller profile, for half the price, and significantly more durable. The moral of the story? Forgeworld is stupid, haha
I do not run a "pure" arty platform list. But I'll see if I can get my SW with 2 Earthshaker Platforms/5 Sabre list up against a Farsight bomb in the next few weeks (I have essentially been out of town since the Tau Codex came out, so I am 100% theory hammering right now). My list has two Rune Priests, so I could theoretically couple AP3 barrage weapons with both prescience and perfect timing...
Edit: my list is 1999. But an IG + SW/DA list could easily be at 1500. And platform lists are extremely common in FW environments (second place at BAO for example, only losing to flamer screamers)
I have never played against a farsight bomb, but as an IG player my instinct would be to use conscripts.
Big squad, say 30-40. Send in the next wave. Lord commissar near (but not in the unit) allows them to have Ld 10 if i want it and Ld 5 when i want them to break (so i can shoot them). Standard so I can re roll.
I wouldn't be trying to kill them, just tie them up for the game. If he shoots them than that is also fine, they will come back.
Not really list tailoring (for me personally) as many of those units are quite common in an IG list
I can completely and freely admit I could be wrong though!
A lot of the ideas are around getting them stuck in close combat so they can't shoot. However, with Vector Thrusters they will have hit and run and will try and leave on their movment at I5, allowing them more shooting and an assault thrust.
If you want to tie them up, you will probably need some really good assault units with high initiative.
Did not realise that they could hit and run. Guess Conscripts would not be good for tying them up. Still 40-120 lasgun shots could do something. Damage the paint work?
Last time I faced one my opponent had the decency to set them down right in the middle of my gunline. He did manage to kill two squads of infantry but neglected to engage the heavy weapons, on his turn the 5 drones got plinked away by lasguns and autocannons, then the two Lascannon heavy weapon squads along with the Rapier Laser Destroyer battery he failed to engaged in front of him and the Vendetta that rolled on wiped every last one of them
Admittedly, most Tau commanders probably won't be as obliging. But the principle works the same, strip the drones with all of your "weeny" (i.e. non Ap4+ and S7 or lower) fire, hit the now unguarded suits with S8+ AP3- weaponry and they go bye-bye.
anonymou5 wrote: I completely agree the Farsight bomb is brutal, and one of the rare deathstars that is going to do well in a Tac environment.
However, I think an IG + MEQ Arty platform list will roll it. Sabres own any deep strike list, and if starts on the board, Earthshaker platforms with prescience are going to be a bad day. You agree the Basilisk is a bad matchup, Earthshaker platforms are worse. It's the same gun, with a much smaller profile, for half the price, and significantly more durable. The moral of the story? Forgeworld is stupid, haha
I do not run a "pure" arty platform list. But I'll see if I can get my SW with 2 Earthshaker Platforms/5 Sabre list up against a Farsight bomb in the next few weeks (I have essentially been out of town since the Tau Codex came out, so I am 100% theory hammering right now). My list has two Rune Priests, so I could theoretically couple AP3 barrage weapons with both prescience and perfect timing...
Edit: my list is 1999. But an IG + SW/DA list could easily be at 1500. And platform lists are extremely common in FW environments (second place at BAO for example, only losing to flamer screamers)
someone mentioned these to me before. If you post your lists at 1500 and 1999 i will even play against them locally as well to see how they do.
are the earthshakers str 8 for insta kill? one barrage? they ignore cover right? are they in squads so they all get prescience? its still 2d6 scatter though? and under 36" you need to line of site (which means I see you too!!) yes no?
Nilok wrote: A lot of the ideas are around getting them stuck in close combat so they can't shoot. However, with Vector Thrusters they will have hit and run and will try and leave on their movment at I5, allowing them more shooting and an assault thrust.
If you want to tie them up, you will probably need some really good assault units with high initiative.
Exactly. Hit them with a beast unit that hits on a higher initiative and there's not a lot they can do.
you have to catch them (GOOD LUCK!)
They will be stubborn
the gun drones will be in front soaking initial hits
One suit will be 2+ save toughness 5
The suits have 2 wounds each
They get overwatch
they can hit and run
Farsight can fight dude!!!!
your super assault unit will NEVER make it to the deathstar without being thinned out
oh and they will have kroot bubble wrap until you kill it ( i use two units of wrap personally, since i like to be safe)
Are their other units besides the storm boy ork character than can let you assault after deepstrike? (that people actually use...that are also very killy)
someone mentioned these to me before. If you post your lists at 1500 and 1999 i will even play against them locally as well to see how they do.
are the earthshakers str 8 for insta kill? one barrage? they ignore cover right? are they in squads so they all get prescience? its still 2d6 scatter though? and under 36" you need to line of site (which means I see you too!!) yes no?
STR 9, AP 3, Barrage. So they don't ignore cover, they just calculate cover from the center of the blast. If you're in area terrain, you will still get it, if you are behind something, you likely will not. Full 2d6 scatter if out of LOS, but prescience kind of solves that. They can be taken in squads of up to 3. When in a squad, they fire under barrage rules. That means the first pie plate is the "center" of the shooting, the next two shots are based of that (either flipping on a scatter, or placed anywhere on top of the original plate with a "hit") Each individual barrage shot can be rerolled with prescience. Perfect timing, of course, would make the weapons actually ignore cover (if the psycher got it. not something you can 100% plan for with MEQ, although two psychers ups the odds)
Each platform gets 4 crewmen, and can take four more. All are at t7. That means each gun has 10 wounds at t7. It's stupid. For extra stupidity, put them on a skyshield. Sigh. Their weakness is LD7, hence the Rune Priest (and/or Lord Commissar)
I'm going to PM you my current 1999 list, which is not a true "arty platform cheese" list, but it does have two. I think it would be a good match up for the Farsight bomb (but haven't played against a Farsight bomb yet, so I'd love to hear your opinion). Later tonight I'll find you a more brutal Arty list, which I believe is far worse for Farsight (but maybe not as good TAC as what I run)
In my experience the massive numbers of the IG are the best against the farsight bomb. Although if you can manage to get something like grimoired seekers into CC, it can hurt alot too. The same points worth of noise marines will do a song and dance on your bomb's grave.
Crimson-King2120 wrote: i would think nob bikers would be quite effective they are faster and brutal in.CC especially with PK send in a unit of warbikers to soak up the overwatch then charge your nobs in krump the guy who gives them hit and run and then just crush them roll up a unit of boyz and just swamp em
No the wont...
Tau shooting ignores coversaves and the cannot get within charge range without getting at least 1 round of shooting in their face.
You want a TAC List with orks that could possibly handle the Bomb?
warboss with mega armor (and stuff)
mek with KFF
10 loota's
10 loota's
10 loota's
20 shootaboyz
20 shootaboyz
17 shootaboyz with powerclaw nob
3 battlewagons with extra armor and deathrolla's
defence line
about 1500 points
2 options:
1: rush with the battlewagons towards the bomb with all the shootaboyz and warboss and mek in the middle to keep 5+ coversave. Mek could take those first overwatch shots (let him die!!) and then the warboss with 2+/5+ save could take the next. Loota's go behind defence line.
2: you could also shoot! Loota's shoot from the battlewagons and shootaboyz are used for bubblewrap (with defence line protection).
I agree on nob bikers, I killed 6 of them (painboy+cybork) + warboss easily with shooting/overwatch and one assault (farsight can hang bro!!) If it was a nob death star with 12 of them might be a bit challenging but i would stall them with bubble wrap as best i could.
Here is math hammer on one round of rapid fire shooting - 14 plasma ( 2 at bs 5) 4-5 wounds, 4 fusion (2 at bs 5) 1.5wounds - 8 missiles (1 wound) 20 pulse carbines (3 wounds) (the unit was at 10" awaybut killing 4-5 bikers gets them..2-3 inches? then jumps 3d6 average 10" back (usually behind a bubble wrap kroot but lets say the lootas killed them all) the nobs move 12" and need an 10-11" charge to reach them and i get to overwatch even if they fail. Overwatch kills another 1-2....
it is not good for the nobs!
THAT LIST I THINK HAS A CHANCE! I am scared of getting within melta range to pop trucks as if i fail im getting deffrolled which sucks, which also puts me way to close to the orks that fall out.
this list might work actually!!
The lootas are raped turn 1 from 30 str 7 ignore cover missiles (if my nova charge goes off for double sms shots from both riptides). I would shoot 16 into one unit 8 into another killing/breaking them. 10-15 lootas are not scary to the bomb which is behind cover or bubble wrap for 2+ saves. The riptides are even less scary (even though the only thing to kill a riptide in 5 games was a loota team...well nova did 2 wounds, deffkopta got 1, lootas finished off with max shots)
I am going to do some mathhammer on what 2 riptides and the deathstar can do to 3 battlewagons....the riptides will have to use the str 8 blast or nova charge to str 9 large blast.....the battlewagons i assume are in tight formation to limit side armor shots? if I go MAX 18" range with the suits for 4 fusion shots i can do...1 glance? a turn at best....plus the riptides....it doesnt look good unless i can get juicy side/rear armor
thankfully wagons dont inhibit my ability to manuaver to bad. My basic strategy would be to kill one at range at least, then move into melta range, farsight charges one, melta the other (if im super desperate) but i am hoping i can kill one at safe range...get into melta range 9" kill 2 with melta, then jump back 3d6(10" on average) so the boys cant assault me.
maybe it would not be as hard as I thought. gonna do some math hammer.
LAND RAIDER COMMENT - My first fight ever was against a DA player with a landraider with the powerfield, nightshroud bikes, termies in the land raider. I killed him handily. (PRE-POWERFIELD NERF)
he planned to try the 2 landraider with powerfiled option but that recently got nerfed...
With BW's though it's hard not to get a side shot on them. If he is hiding his rear armor on the his back table edge he is out of range most likely and the loota's are unsupported and going to get killed even worse for him if it's the long table edge deployment if he is trying to hide his rear armor. The suits I think can split fire as well with the right setup so if he does not hide his rear it would not be hard to kill 2 or 3 bw's killing half of everything inside. If boys are bubble wrapping and lootas are in the wagons then his scoring units are sitting ducks for the tau. It might be a more likely chance than other ork tac lists but it's still a huge uphill battle. Mad dok giving 30 boys invul saves might help but it's not something I usually put in a tac list.
someone mentioned these to me before. If you post your lists at 1500 and 1999 i will even play against them locally as well to see how they do.
are the earthshakers str 8 for insta kill? one barrage? they ignore cover right? are they in squads so they all get prescience? its still 2d6 scatter though? and under 36" you need to line of site (which means I see you too!!) yes no?
STR 9, AP 3, Barrage. So they don't ignore cover, they just calculate cover from the center of the blast. If you're in area terrain, you will still get it, if you are behind something, you likely will not. Full 2d6 scatter if out of LOS, but prescience kind of solves that. They can be taken in squads of up to 3. When in a squad, they fire under barrage rules. That means the first pie plate is the "center" of the shooting, the next two shots are based of that (either flipping on a scatter, or placed anywhere on top of the original plate with a "hit") Each individual barrage shot can be rerolled with prescience. Perfect timing, of course, would make the weapons actually ignore cover (if the psycher got it. not something you can 100% plan for with MEQ, although two psychers ups the odds)
Each platform gets 4 crewmen, and can take four more. All are at t7. That means each gun has 10 wounds at t7. It's stupid. For extra stupidity, put them on a skyshield. Sigh. Their weakness is LD7, hence the Rune Priest (and/or Lord Commissar)
I'm going to PM you my current 1999 list, which is not a true "arty platform cheese" list, but it does have two. I think it would be a good match up for the Farsight bomb (but haven't played against a Farsight bomb yet, so I'd love to hear your opinion). Later tonight I'll find you a more brutal Arty list, which I believe is far worse for Farsight (but maybe not as good TAC as what I run)
If they dont ignore cover than I am not worried at all since i get 2+ in most cases
Crimson-King2120 wrote: i would think nob bikers would be quite effective they are faster and brutal in.CC especially with PK send in a unit of warbikers to soak up the overwatch then charge your nobs in krump the guy who gives them hit and run and then just crush them roll up a unit of boyz and just swamp em
No the wont...
Tau shooting ignores coversaves and the cannot get within charge range without getting at least 1 round of shooting in their face.
You want a TAC List with orks that could possibly handle the Bomb?
warboss with mega armor (and stuff)
mek with KFF
10 loota's
10 loota's
10 loota's
20 shootaboyz
20 shootaboyz
17 shootaboyz with powerclaw nob
3 battlewagons with extra armor and deathrolla's
defence line
about 1500 points
2 options:
1: rush with the battlewagons towards the bomb with all the shootaboyz and warboss and mek in the middle to keep 5+ coversave. Mek could take those first overwatch shots (let him die!!) and then the warboss with 2+/5+ save could take the next. Loota's go behind defence line.
2: you could also shoot! Loota's shoot from the battlewagons and shootaboyz are used for bubblewrap (with defence line protection).
I agree on nob bikers, I killed 6 of them (painboy+cybork) + warboss easily with shooting/overwatch and one assault (farsight can hang bro!!) If it was a nob death star with 12 of them might be a bit challenging but i would stall them with bubble wrap as best i could.
Here is math hammer on one round of rapid fire shooting - 14 plasma ( 2 at bs 5) 4-5 wounds, 4 fusion (2 at bs 5) 1.5wounds - 8 missiles (1 wound) 20 pulse carbines (3 wounds) (the unit was at 10" awaybut killing 4-5 bikers gets them..2-3 inches? then jumps 3d6 average 10" back (usually behind a bubble wrap kroot but lets say the lootas killed them all) the nobs move 12" and need an 10-11" charge to reach them and i get to overwatch even if they fail. Overwatch kills another 1-2....
it is not good for the nobs!
THAT LIST I THINK HAS A CHANCE! I am scared of getting within melta range to pop trucks as if i fail im getting deffrolled which sucks, which also puts me way to close to the orks that fall out.
this list might work actually!!
The lootas are raped turn 1 from 30 str 7 ignore cover missiles (if my nova charge goes off for double sms shots from both riptides). I would shoot 16 into one unit 8 into another killing/breaking them. 10-15 lootas are not scary to the bomb which is behind cover or bubble wrap for 2+ saves. The riptides are even less scary (even though the only thing to kill a riptide in 5 games was a loota team...well nova did 2 wounds, deffkopta got 1, lootas finished off with max shots)
I am going to do some mathhammer on what 2 riptides and the deathstar can do to 3 battlewagons....the riptides will have to use the str 8 blast or nova charge to str 9 large blast.....the battlewagons i assume are in tight formation to limit side armor shots? if I go MAX 18" range with the suits for 4 fusion shots i can do...1 glance? a turn at best....plus the riptides....it doesnt look good unless i can get juicy side/rear armor
thankfully wagons dont inhibit my ability to manuaver to bad. My basic strategy would be to kill one at range at least, then move into melta range, farsight charges one, melta the other (if im super desperate) but i am hoping i can kill one at safe range...get into melta range 9" kill 2 with melta, then jump back 3d6(10" on average) so the boys cant assault me.
maybe it would not be as hard as I thought. gonna do some math hammer.
LAND RAIDER COMMENT - My first fight ever was against a DA player with a landraider with the powerfield, nightshroud bikes, termies in the land raider. I killed him handily. (PRE-POWERFIELD NERF)
he planned to try the 2 landraider with powerfiled option but that recently got nerfed...
With BW's though it's hard not to get a side shot on them. If he is hiding his rear armor on the his back table edge he is out of range most likely and the loota's are unsupported and going to get killed even worse for him if it's the long table edge deployment if he is trying to hide his rear armor. The suits I think can split fire as well with the right setup so if he does not hide his rear it would not be hard to kill 2 or 3 bw's killing half of everything inside. If boys are bubble wrapping and lootas are in the wagons then his scoring units are sitting ducks for the tau. It might be a more likely chance than other ork tac lists but it's still a huge uphill battle. Mad dok giving 30 boys invul saves might help but it's not something I usually put in a tac list.
THE upgrade all the suits take is target lock for split fire. I can shoot at 8 different targets (usually its 2-3 once i shot at 4)
Farsight
Shadowsun
Bodyguard C&C, Multi Spec, Nuero Web Jammer, Drone Controller, Vectored Retro Thrusters ((i love the idea of the commander tau with all his sensors of doom!!!!))
Bodyguard Plasma, Plasma, Target Lock
Bodyguard Plasma, Plasma, Target Lock
Bodyguard Plasma, Plasma, Target Lock
Bodyguard Fusion, Fusion, Target Lock
Bodyguard Missile Pod, Missile Pod, Target Lock Iradium Armour
Bodyguard Missile Pod, Missile Pod, Target Lock Puretide engram
10 gun drones
POSTING THIS REMINDED ME the nuero web jammer is pure gold vs blobs. want to see 30 ork boys kill themselves? nuero jammer them gets hot is awesome!!!
rapid fire flash lights would kill more guard than suits.drones, lol
I feel like the fusion guy should have the iridium armor since he should be hanging out toward the front of the squad more often then most. Or is the idea to use the guy your most likely to not miss when he dies from tanking wounds?
Coyote81 wrote: I feel like the fusion guy should have the iridium armor since he should be hanging out toward the front of the squad more often then most. Or is the idea to use the guy your most likely to not miss when he dies from tanking wounds?
He needs the Target Lock so he can fire at a different target than the dones in the squad. If you don't use the Target Lock it won't be shooting at what it needs to.
Since we are talking about the bomb with Shadowsun in it maybe one of you can clear something up for me, I don't see it talked about a lot so maybe it doesn't work like I think. Shadowsun's shield drone, says that it confers a 3+ invulnerable save. Is that just to her, or is it confered to the unit? The use of the word "confer" is throwing me off.
tidalwake wrote: Since we are talking about the bomb with Shadowsun in it maybe one of you can clear something up for me, I don't see it talked about a lot so maybe it doesn't work like I think. Shadowsun's shield drone, says that it confers a 3+ invulnerable save. Is that just to her, or is it confered to the unit? The use of the word "confer" is throwing me off.
Read it again - the wargear confers the save. Her MV42 drones have said wargear, she does not. Her suit only carries with it a 3+ armor and 5++ invulnerable.
tidalwake wrote: Since we are talking about the bomb with Shadowsun in it maybe one of you can clear something up for me, I don't see it talked about a lot so maybe it doesn't work like I think. Shadowsun's shield drone, says that it confers a 3+ invulnerable save. Is that just to her, or is it confered to the unit? The use of the word "confer" is throwing me off.
Read it again - the wargear confers the save. Her MV42 drones have said wargear, she does not. Her suit only carries with it a 3+ armor and 5++ invulnerable.
The notes of her suit is on her page in the codex ( among with the details of the drones )
So yes, Shadowsun does only have a 3+ and a 5++
Coyote81 wrote: I feel like the fusion guy should have the iridium armor since he should be hanging out toward the front of the squad more often then most. Or is the idea to use the guy your most likely to not miss when he dies from tanking wounds?
He needs the Target Lock so he can fire at a different target than the dones in the squad. If you don't use the Target Lock it won't be shooting at what it needs to.
the 2+ suit is a signature item and does not use up a hard point. I put it on the missiles as they are what i find "expendable" when i use look out sir to deflect to the iradium suit.
tetrisphreak wrote: Read it again - the wargear confers the save. Her MV42 drones have said wargear, she does not. Her suit only carries with it a 3+ armor and 5++ invulnerable.
Jancoran wrote: I think someone is overestimating the Tau chances of bouncing an Assault Terminator squad. By a fair margin. But sure. It COULD happen.
bouncing an assault squad? I dont understand? tau kill them at range, not in assault.
If a termie assault squad EVER assaults the farsuns tar, something has gone terribly wrong, or the termie player is the greatest tactician on the planet and planned his check mate 4 moves in advance.....
I feel like Marbo could be a decent counter to this. Sure he will die, but he has a big blasty pie plate of doom and if he kills one suit (ish) he makes his points back.
Another counter to it is the TH/SS bomb as mentioned above or maybe even a blob of DW Knights. For DA the TH/SS are troops still so this is more viable for the ability to actually win the game, but it is a low body count elite army vs an elite killer. So it's still an uphill battle. If the DW Knights do manage to charge (perhaps via a land raider) then they can smite and do str 10 initiative 4 ap 2 for a turn. It may not wipe the tau out, but it will seriously hurt them. Plus, their shield lock thing makes them T5 and they have 2+ 3++. Plus I believe that you can get about 20 DW Knights for the price of the 1000 point farsight bomb if you really wanted to list tailor. Just saying.
Regardless, the game would probably be over by about turn 3.
VardenV2 wrote: I feel like Marbo could be a decent counter to this. Sure he will die, but he has a big blasty pie plate of doom and if he kills one suit (ish) he makes his points back.
Another counter to it is the TH/SS bomb as mentioned above or maybe even a blob of DW Knights. For DA the TH/SS are troops still so this is more viable for the ability to actually win the game, but it is a low body count elite army vs an elite killer. So it's still an uphill battle. If the DW Knights do manage to charge (perhaps via a land raider) then they can smite and do str 10 initiative 4 ap 2 for a turn. It may not wipe the tau out, but it will seriously hurt them. Plus, their shield lock thing makes them T5 and they have 2+ 3++. Plus I believe that you can get about 20 DW Knights for the price of the 1000 point farsight bomb if you really wanted to list tailor. Just saying.
Regardless, the game would probably be over by about turn 3.
I have personally fought a deathwing list twice, once with a land raider, once with deathwing assault.
He never assaulted me, when i stripped his belial unit down to just belial i assaulted him with farsight so he could have at least one assault turn.
Here is some basics for you
Land raider
I peppered the rest of his army on turn 1-2 when the land raider got across the half way point I jumped within 9" of it with my 4 fusion guns and blew it up, it even had the invuln shield bubble in it. I then jumped back i think 8" so i was 17 from him, he would have needed an 11 to charge.....
I then shot the deathwin at 12" for full rapid fire goodness.
The plasma plus fusion alone do 18 shots i got 14 hits, 12 wounds and he saved 8 taking 4 wounds, 4 dead termies bro!! this was belials unit with the apothecary for fnp as well. This doesnt even include the other 20 shots from the gun drones and missile suits that were still alive (think i had like 4 drones left)
you are right the game was over by turn 3, he gave up.
I am now 6 games in 6-0, another 4 games and i retire this army for good. Thankfully my eldar are coming out and my bad ass custom exodite lis (counts as jet bikes) army will come back into the game! Haven played it since we got our 4th edition book that ruined RUINED my shining spears taking away their bright lance....bastards.
Yeah honestly, if I was playing deathwing and knew my opponent had this crap I wouldn't even play them. It's a list that is meant to basically eradicate every list that isn't totally prepared to deal with it, which is not fun to play against. I know winning is fun and all but if you are tabling opponents within three turns it is not fun, not balanced, and you will quickly run out of people who want to play against you. Especially because a list like the deathstar requires very little in terms of skill in order to play correctly, to me at least. It's basically just copy the list, and then drop in wherever you want and just choose the right targets.
Winning with the deathstar shows to me that a player is able to make a really hard list, but is not necessarily a good player. It has its purpose don't get me wrong, but I am sure that 80% of the people who win by relying on lists like these will suck when given a normal list vs a normal list. I hate that there are those "auto win" or "auto lose" matchups that can happen. If I wanted to play Deathwing and I played a farsight bomb I would just auto lose. That's terrible balance.
VardenV2 wrote: Yeah honestly, if I was playing deathwing and knew my opponent had this crap I wouldn't even play them. It's a list that is meant to basically eradicate every list that isn't totally prepared to deal with it, which is not fun to play against. I know winning is fun and all but if you are tabling opponents within three turns it is not fun, not balanced, and you will quickly run out of people who want to play against you. Especially because a list like the deathstar requires very little in terms of skill in order to play correctly, to me at least. It's basically just copy the list, and then drop in wherever you want and just choose the right targets.
Winning with the deathstar shows to me that a player is able to make a really hard list, but is not necessarily a good player. It has its purpose don't get me wrong, but I am sure that 80% of the people who win by relying on lists like these will suck when given a normal list vs a normal list. I hate that there are those "auto win" or "auto lose" matchups that can happen. If I wanted to play Deathwing and I played a farsight bomb I would just auto lose. That's terrible balance.
I agree that facing it is not fun sometimes, but i never spring it on people i TELL them do you want to play warhammer 40k on hard mode? and every person I have faced has been up to the challenge and good sports. I am also a person I explain to them very clearly what is about to come at them I dont sneak it, and it makes it more enjoyable for the both of us as they take it as a challenge to see what they can do.
A friend of mine with 8 vendettas (can you take that many?) want to fight me at 1999 this weekend. I think he might win!! I plan to add another riptide and a decked out broadside suit unit with interceptor as well.
You also cant table them by turn 3...its just so apparently obvious by turn 3 that you cant beat it in most cases....and that they are likely to table you by turn 5-6.
Finally, the joy for me was not beating people with a deathstar, its that I feel lucky that right after the codex came out I saw the value, did the math hammer, worked out the specifics and proved the concept. That is why i plan to play 10 games total with it then retire it.
You can check out my like 50 page dissertation tactica thread on the star, and the 4 batreps thus far I have written up.
How does the farsight bomb handle jotww? Seems like all I have to do is set up a situation so a rune priest can live long enough to get jotww off once and 5/6 of the time I'm downing 2/3rds of the unit. Am I missing something?
Pony_law wrote: How does the farsight bomb handle jotww? Seems like all I have to do is set up a situation so a rune priest can live long enough to get jotww off once and 5/6 of the time I'm downing 2/3rds of the unit. Am I missing something?
first off never played against them, but others have asked this, so i will ask you.
How do you propose for a rune priest to survive getting that close? and its just a line right?
Pony_law wrote: How does the farsight bomb handle jotww? Seems like all I have to do is set up a situation so a rune priest can live long enough to get jotww off once and 5/6 of the time I'm downing 2/3rds of the unit. Am I missing something?
first off never played against them, but others have asked this, so i will ask you.
How do you propose for a rune priest to survive getting that close? and its just a line right?
Rune Priest can drop in from a drop pod so getting close isn't the problem. But the line is hair thin so it may only hit a few suits. They will probably aim for the support suit because that is the most important.
But I personally would argue that jotww does not work on jetpack infantry. It did not work on jetpacks in 5th when the book was written so I don't see why it should work now. Until we get a FAQ about it I will say it doesn't effect jetpack.
Pony_law wrote: How does the farsight bomb handle jotww? Seems like all I have to do is set up a situation so a rune priest can live long enough to get jotww off once and 5/6 of the time I'm downing 2/3rds of the unit. Am I missing something?
first off never played against them, but others have asked this, so i will ask you.
How do you propose for a rune priest to survive getting that close? and its just a line right?
Rune Priest can drop in from a drop pod so getting close isn't the problem. But the line is hair thin so it may only hit a few suits. They will probably aim for the support suit because that is the most important.
But I personally would argue that jotww does not work on jetpack infantry. It did not work on jetpacks in 5th when the book was written so I don't see why it should work now. Until we get a FAQ about it I will say it doesn't effect jetpack.
when you drop in the riptides interceptor the unit with str 8 ap2 pie plates, so you might survive.
lambsandlions wrote: It did not work on jetpacks in 5th when the book was written so I don't see why it should work now. Until we get a FAQ about it I will say it doesn't effect jetpack.
It did not work in 5th because jetpack infantry and infantry were two separate unit types. Now infantry (jetpack) are a sub-type of infantry, and JOTWW very clearly applies to crisis suits. Things just change when you go to a new edition of the game, and this needs an FAQ about as much as the "issue" of whether power swords are AP 2 or AP 3.
when you drop in the riptides interceptor the unit with str 8 ap2 pie plates, so you might survive.
Well, if I was dropping a RP to JOTWW a Farsight bomb, I'd obviously put my dropped unit 1" from the FS bomb, so you'd pretty much have to intercept without the Pieplate. I don't think drop pod Rune Priests is THE counter to the bomb, but it is an effective tool.
Although if I was going to build an anti Farsight List, Four Rune Priests in pods (or on Bikes) might work pretty well (at the cost of being a good list overall, so kind of pointless)
when you drop in the riptides interceptor the unit with str 8 ap2 pie plates, so you might survive.
Well, if I was dropping a RP to JOTWW a Farsight bomb, I'd obviously put my dropped unit 1" from the FS bomb, so you'd pretty much have to intercept without the Pieplate. I don't think drop pod Rune Priests is THE counter to the bomb, but it is an effective tool.
Although if I was going to build an anti Farsight List, Four Rune Priests in pods (or on Bikes) might work pretty well (at the cost of being a good list overall, so kind of pointless)
what if i line up across the board in a line suit drone, suit drone, suit drone etc
Your line ca hit one suit?
even the blob i still dont find it that scary, the suits are always seperated by drones when facing aoe threats its not like a nob horde or any other deathstar where all the models are important, you get to fill it with 12pt fodder to disperse the unit and take up wounds, it is one of the nastiest parts of the unit as a whole.
I have played the bomb vs 4xRune priests twice. The first time one rune priest got off one casting of jotww and killed 2 drones before all four were dead. The second time no rune priest lived to cast. It is not a difficult thing to do at all and interceptor is awesome. It may not be the greatest sample size, but I'm not particularly worried about rune priests.
The farsight bomb is a 1k pt unit, if you are expecting to kill it with something less that what can kill 1000 points, you are going to be disappointed. Funniest time I ever had my bomb killed off was to 1000 points of gaurdsmen and heavy weapons teams. Wiped my bomb off the table pretty quick from weight of fire.
cryhavok wrote: I have played the bomb vs 4xRune priests twice. The first time one rune priest got off one casting of jotww and killed 2 drones before all four were dead. The second time no rune priest lived to cast. It is not a difficult thing to do at all and interceptor is awesome. It may not be the greatest sample size, but I'm not particularly worried about rune priests.
The farsight bomb is a 1k pt unit, if you are expecting to kill it with something less that what can kill 1000 points, you are going to be disappointed. Funniest time I ever had my bomb killed off was to 1000 points of gaurdsmen and heavy weapons teams. Wiped my bomb off the table pretty quick from weight of fire.
assault them next time, it works wonders and dont forget to neural jammer them.
They take way more wounds form gets hot with those rapid fire flash lights, than they kill drones/suits
Jancoran wrote: I think someone is overestimating the Tau chances of bouncing an Assault Terminator squad. By a fair margin. But sure. It COULD happen.
bouncing an assault squad? I dont understand? tau kill them at range, not in assault.
If a termie assault squad EVER assaults the farsuns tar, something has gone terribly wrong, or the termie player is the greatest tactician on the planet and planned his check mate 4 moves in advance.....
You're not understanding. You charge with the normal unit, then hit the Farsun with the real threat. Losing the one pays for itself.
I did this tonight actually. I infiltrated two kroot units and then, after he came up and tried to kill the Riptides (He got one), the Kroot both charged after I hit the unit with Pathfinder Rail Ridles+Carbines. He nearly killed all the kroot from one unit and the other unit swarmed him. Swept him. Not easy to do, only won by 2 thanks to the Krootox, but it was enough to break them. I can't say that I would want to have to count on Kroot for THAT heavy lifting every time, but it worked.
If you don't rely on tanks, the Deathstar is LESS scary. But even in this example, it was a squeeker.
Powerful powerful unit, that Deathstar is. Killed two units and did a number on my third but even so, I lost far less points and used far less to get it done. So I felt good about it.
Jancoran wrote: I think someone is overestimating the Tau chances of bouncing an Assault Terminator squad. By a fair margin. But sure. It COULD happen.
bouncing an assault squad? I dont understand? tau kill them at range, not in assault.
If a termie assault squad EVER assaults the farsuns tar, something has gone terribly wrong, or the termie player is the greatest tactician on the planet and planned his check mate 4 moves in advance.....
You're not understanding. You charge with the normal unit, then hit the Farsun with the real threat. Losing the one pays for itself.
I did this tonight actually. I infiltrated two kroot units and then, after he came up and tried to kill the Riptides (He got one), the Kroot both charged after I hit the unit with Pathfinder Rail Ridles+Carbines. He nearly killed all the kroot from one unit and the other unit swarmed him. Swept him. Not easy to do, only won by 2 thanks to the Krootox, but it was enough to break them. I can't say that I would want to have to count on Kroot for THAT heavy lifting every time, but it worked.
If you don't rely on tanks, the Deathstar is LESS scary. But even in this example, it was a squeeker.
Powerful powerful unit, that Deathstar is. Killed two units and did a number on my third but even so, I lost far less points and used far less to get it done. So I felt good about it.
If soemone deepstrike they deserve to get assaulted, deep striking is by far the worst option imaginable in 95% of the cases for the bomb.
You need that 1000pt unit on the board soaking fire and killing dudes from turn 1, and you need the board for mobility control.
I have played 6 games and been assaulted twice.
First time a ork nob biker squd id wittled down to warboss and painboy and i wanted to stay close to rapid fire the shoota units and figured i coul dbeat him in overwatch/assault. He knew he had no choice but to try as waiting a turn for the shootas to counter assault wasnt going to happen.
Second time I forgot when you killed the command barge the lord still remained, and then he assaulted me.
I find that vindicare assassin will be quite annoying to them with the double wound and remove invulnerable save rifle rounds . Sure thing they are scary but I wanna believe the upcoming eldar codex will deliver something scarier .
Capamaru wrote: I find that vindicare assassin will be quite annoying to them with the double wound and remove invulnerable save rifle rounds . Sure thing they are scary but I wanna believe the upcoming eldar codex will deliver something scarier .
The vindi just shoots the suit with the nice wargear. But he doesnt ignore cover so its feast or famine. On the other hand, the suits can kill the vindi very easily.
Automatically Appended Next Post: I really think the answer is noise marines in rhinos. You use them as pillboxes with the 2 Str8 AP3 ignore cover blasts. Sure the farsight bomb can split fire, but it cannot shoot the rhino, destroy it, and then shoot the occupants.
4 units is slightly over 1000 points. Use some dakka to kill some of the drones and then open up with 8 blasts a turn on the suits. Even if you only get 1 suit with each blast, you are likely killing a suit and there arent many suits there.
Of course riptides can be a problem after you pop the rhino, but multiple rip tides ups the scale of the game considerably.
You're not understanding. You charge with the normal unit, then hit the Farsun with the real threat. Losing the one pays for itself.
I did this tonight actually. I infiltrated two kroot units and then, after he came up and tried to kill the Riptides (He got one), the Kroot both charged after I hit the unit with Pathfinder Rail Ridles+Carbines. He nearly killed all the kroot from one unit and the other unit swarmed him. Swept him. Not easy to do, only won by 2 thanks to the Krootox, but it was enough to break them. I can't say that I would want to have to count on Kroot for THAT heavy lifting every time, but it worked.
If you don't rely on tanks, the Deathstar is LESS scary. But even in this example, it was a squeeker.
Powerful powerful unit, that Deathstar is. Killed two units and did a number on my third but even so, I lost far less points and used far less to get it done. So I felt good about it.
I don't think you can rely on your opponent being brain dead enough to get his Farsight unit within charge range of multiple Kroot (or whatever) units very often. That's just ridiculous. I obviously don't know how your opponent's army is constructed, but in my Tau armies, I've become a bit of a pie plate freak. If I somehow HAD to get my Farsight bomb in that awful position, for whatever reason, you could count on those Kroot units eating some pretty substantial firepower to thin them out, likely to the point of insignificance.
FYI, just running the numbers, you'd kill about 11 drones if you charged with a maxed Kroot unit - 20 Kroot, 3 Krootoxes (oxen?), and 10 hounds - and would then eat roughly 10 wounds in return from the suits alone. I'd call that a reasonably balanced combat despite all the unlikely advantages being in favor of the Kroot. The units also have equal initiative, assuming you had a Kroot hound around somewhere, so even after your opponent failed his Ld 8 check, you still didn't have an amazing shot at sweeping him. Basically, a combo of colossally bad tactics by your opponent and pretty dang good luck by you led to a catastrophic result. Like you said, I'm not sure relying on Kroot - or any other units - to get that job done would be wise.
New codex, new "how do i beat the deathstar" thread.
What is special about this death star?
The fact that its a shooty DS is kind of different but normally these deathstars have ridiculous re-rolled saves to protect their 1000pt cost.
We are talking about a load of 3+ Sv T4 wounds right? You can get +3 to their cover save which is good for a 4+ in the open but the unit is too unwieldy to use area terrain well.
Massed anti infantry fire for the drones followed by S8 for the suits should do ok. Assaulting it with an overwatch sponge followed by a killy unit will work if you can get it off.
My only experience against this unit was a game in which my friendly necron list shot up half the unit and the other half ran off the board.
Yeah, and I don't know why people keep saying "take the nueroweb jammer to make lasguns get hot".
First off, it's a 12" range and only targets one unit IIRC.
Guard blobs of let's say 40 (assuming you don't deepstrike) have a 30" or threat range. With a RP divining them AND FRFSRF you're looking at potentially 66 (counting off Sgts and sniper rifles for extending casualty range) re-rollable s3 shots.
Smart positioning and you only lose drones I suppose. But it is not rare at all to see 2 of these blobs.
This is typical new codex deathstar BS. I'll believe it is so great when a list with that unit takes a big con. See you at NoVa.
Capamaru wrote: I find that vindicare assassin will be quite annoying to them with the double wound and remove invulnerable save rifle rounds . Sure thing they are scary but I wanna believe the upcoming eldar codex will deliver something scarier .
the vindicare is a bother, but ive never seen anyone take him, so Im sure not afraid of one model in one army that is used less than 50% of them time.
Capamaru wrote: I find that vindicare assassin will be quite annoying to them with the double wound and remove invulnerable save rifle rounds . Sure thing they are scary but I wanna believe the upcoming eldar codex will deliver something scarier .
The vindi just shoots the suit with the nice wargear. But he doesnt ignore cover so its feast or famine. On the other hand, the suits can kill the vindi very easily.
Automatically Appended Next Post: I really think the answer is noise marines in rhinos. You use them as pillboxes with the 2 Str8 AP3 ignore cover blasts. Sure the farsight bomb can split fire, but it cannot shoot the rhino, destroy it, and then shoot the occupants.
4 units is slightly over 1000 points. Use some dakka to kill some of the drones and then open up with 8 blasts a turn on the suits. Even if you only get 1 suit with each blast, you are likely killing a suit and there arent many suits there.
Of course riptides can be a problem after you pop the rhino, but multiple rip tides ups the scale of the game considerably.
as one of my last 4 armies i face ill try and face a noise marine army but they dont seem that scary. I can pop the boxes with riptide.
what range are the noise marine shots?
Automatically Appended Next Post:
A Musketeer wrote: Yeah, and I don't know why people keep saying "take the nueroweb jammer to make lasguns get hot".
First off, it's a 12" range and only targets one unit IIRC.
Guard blobs of let's say 40 (assuming you don't deepstrike) have a 30" or threat range. With a RP divining them AND FRFSRF you're looking at potentially 66 (counting off Sgts and sniper rifles for extending casualty range) re-rollable s3 shots.
Smart positioning and you only lose drones I suppose. But it is not rare at all to see 2 of these blobs.
This is typical new codex deathstar BS. I'll believe it is so great when a list with that unit takes a big con. See you at NoVa.
the jammer is cheap point filler and it is sometimes worth its weight.
Horde armies try to encircle the bomb, my one big experience thus far was at 1500 vs orcs who had 3 units of 30 shootas who circled me and tried to pin my against the corner of the board. I jumped up in the middle of them, thinned down 2 of them with the bomb, and the third one which was down to 20-24ish i jammered. They took 8 casualties from the jammer alone.
the jammer is for countering enemy rapid fire which is often within 12" and it does its job well.
The fact that its a shooty DS is kind of different but normally these deathstars have ridiculous re-rolled saves to protect their 1000pt cost.
We are talking about a load of 3+ Sv T4 wounds right? You can get +3 to their cover save which is good for a 4+ in the open but the unit is too unwieldy to use area terrain well.
Massed anti infantry fire for the drones followed by S8 for the suits should do ok. Assaulting it with an overwatch sponge followed by a killy unit will work if you can get it off.
My only experience against this unit was a game in which my friendly necron list shot up half the unit and the other half ran off the board.
their is alot special about this deathstar here is a link to my thread on them, and here is the basic pro and con list for you!
Deepstrike (with no scatter If you have farsight be warlord)
JSJ (the jet move could be 3d6 if shadowsun is the warlord i think this is the best choice)
Infilitrate (some debate is being had as to if infiltrate confers to units joined)
Shoot at 8 different targets SHOOT AT 8 TARGETS!!
4+/2+ cover save thanks to shadowsun shroud/stealth
Everything is twin linked
Everything ignores cover
Can get - stubborn, monster hunter, tank hunter (for the unit) the others are the model only so have little use
Has 100% look out sir
Hit and Run at Init 5 (cant be tied up in combat unless you want to!)
Shortest range gun 18" with jsj it can keep at least 24" from most targets
Drones are BS 3 (twin linked, ignore cover, pinning)
Volume of fire unit (40-46 total shots twin linked, ignores cover)
Quality of fire Unit (11-17 ap1/ap2 twin linked ignores cover shots)
I really think the answer is noise marines in rhinos. You use them as pillboxes with the 2 Str8 AP3 ignore cover blasts. Sure the farsight bomb can split fire, but it cannot shoot the rhino, destroy it, and then shoot the occupants.
4 units is slightly over 1000 points. Use some dakka to kill some of the drones and then open up with 8 blasts a turn on the suits. Even if you only get 1 suit with each blast, you are likely killing a suit and there arent many suits there.
Of course riptides can be a problem after you pop the rhino, but multiple rip tides ups the scale of the game considerably.
as one of my last 4 armies i face ill try and face a noise marine army but they dont seem that scary. I can pop the boxes with riptide.
what range are the noise marine shots?
Blastmasters have a 48" range.
If the tides became a problem it would become prudent to MSU the noise marines and take more rhinos. 5 5 man units with a single blastmaster and 1 10 man with 2 blastmasters in 6 rhinos is the same price.
I really think the answer is noise marines in rhinos. You use them as pillboxes with the 2 Str8 AP3 ignore cover blasts. Sure the farsight bomb can split fire, but it cannot shoot the rhino, destroy it, and then shoot the occupants.
4 units is slightly over 1000 points. Use some dakka to kill some of the drones and then open up with 8 blasts a turn on the suits. Even if you only get 1 suit with each blast, you are likely killing a suit and there arent many suits there.
Of course riptides can be a problem after you pop the rhino, but multiple rip tides ups the scale of the game considerably.
as one of my last 4 armies i face ill try and face a noise marine army but they dont seem that scary. I can pop the boxes with riptide.
what range are the noise marine shots?
Blastmasters have a 48" range.
If the tides became a problem it would become prudent to MSU the noise marines and take more rhinos. 5 5 man units with a single blastmaster and 1 10 man with 2 blastmasters in 6 rhinos is the same price.
sounds like it could get nasty!
could you...post a 1500 list? i will play my friend chaos or find someone on vassal if i have to, I want to try it.
otherwise ill make one but i dont know what other units compliment/protect the marines.
I really think the answer is noise marines in rhinos. You use them as pillboxes with the 2 Str8 AP3 ignore cover blasts. Sure the farsight bomb can split fire, but it cannot shoot the rhino, destroy it, and then shoot the occupants.
4 units is slightly over 1000 points. Use some dakka to kill some of the drones and then open up with 8 blasts a turn on the suits. Even if you only get 1 suit with each blast, you are likely killing a suit and there arent many suits there.
Of course riptides can be a problem after you pop the rhino, but multiple rip tides ups the scale of the game considerably.
as one of my last 4 armies i face ill try and face a noise marine army but they dont seem that scary. I can pop the boxes with riptide.
what range are the noise marine shots?
Blastmasters have a 48" range.
If the tides became a problem it would become prudent to MSU the noise marines and take more rhinos. 5 5 man units with a single blastmaster and 1 10 man with 2 blastmasters in 6 rhinos is the same price.
sounds like it could get nasty!
could you...post a 1500 list? i will play my friend chaos or find someone on vassal if i have to, I want to try it.
otherwise ill make one but i dont know what other units compliment/protect the marines.
As good as heldrakes are, I might first try something like this, which comes in at 1460. I chose to avoid the heldrakes incase the deathstar starts on the table, I want as much as I can there to wittle it down quickly.
150-160 Chaos Lord
MoS, Burning Brand, bike, Sigil, powerfist or murdersword(targeting a riptide)
6* 163, 5 Noise Marines
Rhino, 1 Blastmaster, single sonic blaster.
180 5 chaos spawn MoN 150 5 chaos spawn
The spawn chase after the riptides to tarpit them/kill them/ at least back them into corners. MoN spawn can keep a riptide in combat all game, where as the Chaos lord can kill one easily with str8 ap2 ID attacks.
The chaos lord starts with the unmarked spawn and flames what he can see.
You want to make sure you fire all your rhino bolters and the burning brand at the drones, hopefully killing 1-2 before you start using the noise marines to try and kill suits. Each pillbox gets 3 bolter shots that ignore cover and then the str8AP3 blast that ignores cover.
I dont know if it would work all the time, but it is a fairly competitive list that can beat other armies and it at least has a chance against this Tau Deathstar.
You're not understanding. You charge with the normal unit, then hit the Farsun with the real threat. Losing the one pays for itself.
I did this tonight actually. I infiltrated two kroot units and then, after he came up and tried to kill the Riptides (He got one), the Kroot both charged after I hit the unit with Pathfinder Rail Ridles+Carbines. He nearly killed all the kroot from one unit and the other unit swarmed him. Swept him. Not easy to do, only won by 2 thanks to the Krootox, but it was enough to break them. I can't say that I would want to have to count on Kroot for THAT heavy lifting every time, but it worked.
If you don't rely on tanks, the Deathstar is LESS scary. But even in this example, it was a squeeker.
Powerful powerful unit, that Deathstar is. Killed two units and did a number on my third but even so, I lost far less points and used far less to get it done. So I felt good about it.
I don't think you can rely on your opponent being brain dead enough to get his Farsight unit within charge range of multiple Kroot (or whatever) units very often. That's just ridiculous. I obviously don't know how your opponent's army is constructed, but in my Tau armies, I've become a bit of a pie plate freak. If I somehow HAD to get my Farsight bomb in that awful position, for whatever reason, you could count on those Kroot units eating some pretty substantial firepower to thin them out, likely to the point of insignificance.
FYI, just running the numbers, you'd kill about 11 drones if you charged with a maxed Kroot unit - 20 Kroot, 3 Krootoxes (oxen?), and 10 hounds - and would then eat roughly 10 wounds in return from the suits alone. I'd call that a reasonably balanced combat despite all the unlikely advantages being in favor of the Kroot. The units also have equal initiative, assuming you had a Kroot hound around somewhere, so even after your opponent failed his Ld 8 check, you still didn't have an amazing shot at sweeping him. Basically, a combo of colossally bad tactics by your opponent and pretty dang good luck by you led to a catastrophic result. Like you said, I'm not sure relying on Kroot - or any other units - to get that job done would be wise.
Brain dead? Are you even analyzing whats being said?
I said... he went first. Which means... He deployed first. Which means... He hd no say in the matter. I INFILTRATED after he DEPLOYED. So if he wanted a target, it was going to be on my terms. Remember? And if he wants to fire a bunch of meltas and plasma and such at entrenched kroot in cover, he wouldn't have killed the Riptide he wanted dead. He had choices. He killed his target. Then he died.
This had nothing to do with him being "brain dead". It was him not having a choice. Also, hounds give you high init on the sweep if they are in the majoirty. Just a reminder.
And here's the thing: it happened. It worked. So if you're looking for answers this is one.
And averages are great on paper my friend but it just doesn't always happen that way...bout 50% of the time I'd say. lol.
You're not understanding. You charge with the normal unit, then hit the Farsun with the real threat. Losing the one pays for itself.
I did this tonight actually. I infiltrated two kroot units and then, after he came up and tried to kill the Riptides (He got one), the Kroot both charged after I hit the unit with Pathfinder Rail Ridles+Carbines. He nearly killed all the kroot from one unit and the other unit swarmed him. Swept him. Not easy to do, only won by 2 thanks to the Krootox, but it was enough to break them. I can't say that I would want to have to count on Kroot for THAT heavy lifting every time, but it worked.
If you don't rely on tanks, the Deathstar is LESS scary. But even in this example, it was a squeeker.
Powerful powerful unit, that Deathstar is. Killed two units and did a number on my third but even so, I lost far less points and used far less to get it done. So I felt good about it.
I don't think you can rely on your opponent being brain dead enough to get his Farsight unit within charge range of multiple Kroot (or whatever) units very often. That's just ridiculous. I obviously don't know how your opponent's army is constructed, but in my Tau armies, I've become a bit of a pie plate freak. If I somehow HAD to get my Farsight bomb in that awful position, for whatever reason, you could count on those Kroot units eating some pretty substantial firepower to thin them out, likely to the point of insignificance.
FYI, just running the numbers, you'd kill about 11 drones if you charged with a maxed Kroot unit - 20 Kroot, 3 Krootoxes (oxen?), and 10 hounds - and would then eat roughly 10 wounds in return from the suits alone. I'd call that a reasonably balanced combat despite all the unlikely advantages being in favor of the Kroot. The units also have equal initiative, assuming you had a Kroot hound around somewhere, so even after your opponent failed his Ld 8 check, you still didn't have an amazing shot at sweeping him. Basically, a combo of colossally bad tactics by your opponent and pretty dang good luck by you led to a catastrophic result. Like you said, I'm not sure relying on Kroot - or any other units - to get that job done would be wise.
Brain dead? Are you even analyzing whats being said?
I said... he went first. Which means... He deployed first. Which means... He hd no say in the matter. I INFILTRATED after he DEPLOYED. So if he wanted a target, it was going to be on my terms. Remember? And if he wants to fire a bunch of meltas and plasma and such at entrenched kroot in cover, he wouldn't have killed the Riptide he wanted dead. He had choices. He killed his target. Then he died.
This had nothing to do with him being "brain dead". It was him not having a choice. Also, hounds give you high init on the sweep if they are in the majoirty. Just a reminder.
And here's the thing: it happened. It worked. So if you're looking for answers this is one.
And averages are great on paper my friend but it just doesn't always happen that way...bout 50% of the time I'd say. lol.
i agree with what was said before, your opponent didnt play well unless your not telling everything.
Was his a fully kitted out 1000pt farsight shadowsun star?
Did he not kroot wrap his deathstar unit? or did he and you killed it all off?
If I know my enemmy is infiltrating units like what you just described my 4 units of kroot become a four layer onion wrap....
He does have choices, always choices.
more options shoot the kroot and then assault them so you are in combat for his shooting phase.
another option, shoot enough kroot and manuever so only 1 unit can realistically get into the combat or you make the charge range for one of them a chancy bet.
Brain dead? Are you even analyzing whats being said?
I said... he went first. Which means... He deployed first. Which means... He hd no say in the matter. I INFILTRATED after he DEPLOYED. So if he wanted a target, it was going to be on my terms. Remember? And if he wants to fire a bunch of meltas and plasma and such at entrenched kroot in cover, he wouldn't have killed the Riptide he wanted dead. He had choices. He killed his target. Then he died.
This had nothing to do with him being "brain dead". It was him not having a choice. Also, hounds give you high init on the sweep if they are in the majoirty. Just a reminder.
And here's the thing: it happened. It worked. So if you're looking for answers this is one.
And averages are great on paper my friend but it just doesn't always happen that way...bout 50% of the time I'd say. lol.
There are a lot of things that work once.. that doesn't mean they should be attempted as even bad players get lucky sometimes. I frankly don't see how he didn't have a choice, who cares if you infiltrated? He saw the two kroot units in charge range and decided to move up then get charged.. Seems silly to not just eradicate the two kroot units with a bunch of ignore cover weapons.
So he had a choice but choose the disastrously worse of the two. Hence why the other poster made the "brain dead" . A farsight bomb unit doesn't give a damn about kroot in cover.
I once won a game where I didn't lose a single model, so based on a sample size of one everything I did that game was correct!
Also, while your average may be different from roll to roll there are ways to create steady curves such as twin linking your weapons to avoid deviation. I would say with the farsight bomb the averages are going to be very predictive of what you'll get due to twin-linking.
You're not understanding. You charge with the normal unit, then hit the Farsun with the real threat. Losing the one pays for itself.
I did this tonight actually. I infiltrated two kroot units and then, after he came up and tried to kill the Riptides (He got one), the Kroot both charged after I hit the unit with Pathfinder Rail Ridles+Carbines. He nearly killed all the kroot from one unit and the other unit swarmed him. Swept him. Not easy to do, only won by 2 thanks to the Krootox, but it was enough to break them. I can't say that I would want to have to count on Kroot for THAT heavy lifting every time, but it worked.
If you don't rely on tanks, the Deathstar is LESS scary. But even in this example, it was a squeeker.
Powerful powerful unit, that Deathstar is. Killed two units and did a number on my third but even so, I lost far less points and used far less to get it done. So I felt good about it.
I don't think you can rely on your opponent being brain dead enough to get his Farsight unit within charge range of multiple Kroot (or whatever) units very often. That's just ridiculous. I obviously don't know how your opponent's army is constructed, but in my Tau armies, I've become a bit of a pie plate freak. If I somehow HAD to get my Farsight bomb in that awful position, for whatever reason, you could count on those Kroot units eating some pretty substantial firepower to thin them out, likely to the point of insignificance.
FYI, just running the numbers, you'd kill about 11 drones if you charged with a maxed Kroot unit - 20 Kroot, 3 Krootoxes (oxen?), and 10 hounds - and would then eat roughly 10 wounds in return from the suits alone. I'd call that a reasonably balanced combat despite all the unlikely advantages being in favor of the Kroot. The units also have equal initiative, assuming you had a Kroot hound around somewhere, so even after your opponent failed his Ld 8 check, you still didn't have an amazing shot at sweeping him. Basically, a combo of colossally bad tactics by your opponent and pretty dang good luck by you led to a catastrophic result. Like you said, I'm not sure relying on Kroot - or any other units - to get that job done would be wise.
Brain dead? Are you even analyzing whats being said?
I said... he went first. Which means... He deployed first. Which means... He hd no say in the matter. I INFILTRATED after he DEPLOYED. So if he wanted a target, it was going to be on my terms. Remember? And if he wants to fire a bunch of meltas and plasma and such at entrenched kroot in cover, he wouldn't have killed the Riptide he wanted dead. He had choices. He killed his target. Then he died.
This had nothing to do with him being "brain dead". It was him not having a choice. Also, hounds give you high init on the sweep if they are in the majoirty. Just a reminder.
And here's the thing: it happened. It worked. So if you're looking for answers this is one.
And averages are great on paper my friend but it just doesn't always happen that way...bout 50% of the time I'd say. lol.
Whats this no choice thing you speak of????? Whats this he could only choose to target one of two units thing you speak of??????? Both of those sound like silly options that I don't play with personally.
From the very limited info you gave here is where he failed:
-did not support bomb, wasting the biggest strength of the tau.
-did not move away from close enemies (seriously with jetpacks any play that gets caught in cc by something like kroot deserve the shameful fate awaiting them)
-did not take target locks to kill both the riptide and wipe the kroot off the board
-wasted all available supporting fire on first thing to charge as if an infant coulds see plain as day that a second squad is about to charge as well.
That is just off the top of my head, I'm sure an expert, which I am not, could point out more things he did wrong. Yes it worked for you, so does taking candy from a baby, that does not make it a reliable or even advisable way to try for.
Kirasu wrote: Brain dead? Are you even analyzing whats being said?
IAlso, while your average may be different from roll to roll there are ways to create steady curves such as twin linking your weapons to avoid deviation. I would say with the farsight bomb the averages are going to be very predictive of what you'll get due to twin-linking.
Kirasu!!
This so THIS!!
One of the things i find most devestating about the farsight shadowsun unit is you get rid of alot of the dice gods fun.
Since you are ignoring cover/armor in most cases, and are twin linked you can actually play the averages and predict the outcome of any fire fight.
They EFFICIENTLY do EXACTLY what you want them to do everytime.
If he deploys first and wraps his kroot around him (he had Fire Warriors, not Kroot so in his case, woulda been FW's) and jumps over them to fire on the Riptide... he then must jump back...and thats a HUGE blob of a unit. He can't JUST jump over entirely NOR back in a big clump (safely) unless he wants to risk all the large blasts.
But lets say he planned to wrap them anyways, despite the logistical poblem of jumping a unit that size over a wall of FW's. There's a guarantee that he'd not make it with all of them if hs still wants to avoid a charge, and a he'd not be able to spread like he wants.
I RESPECT the opinion that he might have wanted to TRY to wrap them, But I think the GLOBE of that unit is so large that its impractical to hope the jump packs work perfectly. They'd end up on top of models and that sort of thing and clumped. This is bad.
If he moves his FW's first as a shell, terrain would (in this case) have slowed them potentially for the same reasons he hoped I would be slowed. There again a practical consideration. So if the FW's dont move far enough, they get in the way of the Farsun units movement and its a tangled mess cosing a lot of shots potentially. If the jump back move tanks, well... All the worse.
But sure... In the perfect world, he might well have been able to "shell" his unit back up behind the Fire Warriors. That's not how it played out and I forced the issue, successfully but yes, he could have tried it.
Then again, what if's dont win games. Over confidence DOES lose them though. Such as beleiving there is no answer to Farsun. You can "waste" an awful lot of points wasting the Farsuns and the effort and expenditure will never be wasted.
Calling him brain dead...entirely different matter. Thats just arguing in poor faith and slinging names at people you dont even KNOW.
This is a very good thing to talk about because the Farsun is GOING to show up at tournies. Cheeky people abound. ignoring a plan that can (and did) work seems...foolhardy.
If he deploys first and wraps his kroot around him (he had Fire Warriors, not Kroot so in his case, woulda been FW's) and jumps over them to fire on the Riptide... he then must jump back...and thats a HUGE blob of a unit. He can't JUST jump over entirely NOR back in a big clump (safely) unless he wants to risk all the large blasts.
But lets say he planned to wrap them anyways, despite the logistical poblem of jumping a unit that size over a wall of FW's. There's a guarantee that he'd not make it with all of them if hs still wants to avoid a charge, and a he'd not be able to spread like he wants.
I RESPECT the opinion that he might have wanted to TRY to wrap them, But I think the GLOBE of that unit is so large that its impractical to hope the jump packs work perfectly. They'd end up on top of models and that sort of thing and clumped. This is bad.
If he moves his FW's first as a shell, terrain would (in this case) have slowed them potentially for the same reasons he hoped I would be slowed. There again a practical consideration. So if the FW's dont move far enough, they get in the way of the Farsun units movement and its a tangled mess cosing a lot of shots potentially. If the jump back move tanks, well... All the worse.
But sure... In the perfect world, he might well have been able to "shell" his unit back up behind the Fire Warriors. That's not how it played out and I forced the issue, successfully but yes, he could have tried it.
Then again, what if's dont win games. Over confidence DOES lose them though. Such as beleiving there is no answer to Farsun. You can "waste" an awful lot of points wasting the Farsuns and the effort and expenditure will never be wasted.
Calling him brain dead...entirely different matter. Thats just arguing in poor faith and slinging names at people you dont even KNOW.
This is a very good thing to talk about because the Farsun is GOING to show up at tournies. Cheeky people abound. ignoring a plan that can (and did) work seems...foolhardy.
if you infilitrated kroot why in the world does he need to jump forward over firewarriors? makes no sense, they should be in range.....regardless if its a true farsun deathstar then shadowsun is the warlord so jsj is on 3d6 (average 10") so if they could jump 6" over then they can damn sure jump 10" back.....
I mean two units of 23? kroot is what you had at his front door and he went after a riptide? really?
In my defense i use the farsun star and have won 6 games in a row, and based on my experience, and my tactics/strategy their is a slim to non chance that two units of max kroot will be a danger to me.
I would wipe one unit from the board and assault the other to protect me from riptide shots.
Here would be my shot break down
10 drones farsight 1 fusion from shadowsun into the kroot unit 1
20x str 5 ap 5 will kill...13
14x plasma will kil....9
4x fusion will kill... 3
8x missiles kill...5
OR
I shoot the 20x drone shots, 1 farsight plasma, 1 shadowsun plasma into one unit...killing 15
the other 6(12) plasma, 3 fusion, and 8 missiles into the other kroot unit kill....14
THEN assault 1 with fire warriors/riptide
OR
just shoot both thining them....
both squads neutered, let him charge me with those....hell id set up to let him charge, nueral jammer 1 of the units.......couple more die from shooting at me before charge.....
If you can get massive shooting at 36" range you can volume of fire them, do autocannons shoot 36" and can you take...like 20-30 of em?
I dont know IG that well, nor play them that often, but if they have any large blast ap 3 that ignore cover....spam it.
Anything that doesnt ignore cover is not going to do much regardless of how high its strength is but str 8 is obviously thr sweet spot.
I have seen two very good lists that are dangerous
If you get blasts/large blasts that ignore cover and a space amrine librarian to precience them for reroll they do ok.....an IG player told me though that basilikster/earth shaker carriages dont ignore cover....so its not the dangerous.
You can also spam vendettas/vultures(who doesnt this work on?)...that works BUT THE TAU still have a chance. I am going to play agains a list like that this weekend here is his cheese list.
it will have 4? vendettas/vultures and 4-6 earthshaker carriages i think....as well as a ton of sabre platforms in the ig blobs for like 10 twin linked lascannons (MAYBE MORE)
Oh the irony that this supposed unstoppable bomb is still raped by 400 points of rune priests makes me laugh. Jaws literally makes this unit run and hide, my standard wolf list runs 2 priests typically but recently I have been running 3 and am contemplating the 4th.
Riptides.... Suits, they are all i2 except far-sight who will still fail 33% of the time.
Deathstars are still deathstars, they do mass damage and are resilient but they don't win objectives. Draigowing only sees comp play because the unit scores, sorry but tossing 1000+ points at one unit that can't score is a fun but less then optimal strategy. At 1500 if your taking riptides you seriously are lacking scoring bodies.
I run 3 rune priests in my Space Wolf army! My wolves used to be Tau's biggest nightmare, with RP's in drop pods and missile-spam long fangs.
I once played a Tau player at the Ard Boyz tournament. Turn 1, I drop both RP's in 2 separate pods, jaws 2 units of 3 broadsides, killed 2 in each unit and then both of them ran off the table!
Of course it's been a while since I last played my wolves. Nowadays, those Riptides may make it much more challenging for the wolves, especially if you give them both skyfire and interceptor.
Hey, that reminds me of one of the best Tau/SW battle reports that I've seen recently:
jy2 wrote: I run 3 rune priests in my Space Wolf army! My wolves used to be Tau's biggest nightmare, with RP's in drop pods and missile-spam long fangs.
I once played a Tau player at the Ard Boyz tournament. Turn 1, I drop both RP's in 2 separate pods, jaws 2 units of 3 broadsides, killed 2 in each unit and then both of them ran off the table!
Of course it's been a while since I last played my wolves. Nowadays, those Riptides may make it much more challenging for the wolves, especially if you give them both skyfire and interceptor.
Hey, that reminds me of one of the best Tau/SW battle reports that I've seen recently:
Exactly, I still love my wolves as they counter a lot of new army builds and old resurfacing ones (tyranids) and while riptides and broadsides may have access to skyfire, this isn't an easy counter as interceptor is at crummy BS3 and if you position your RP correctly behind the pod you can jaws the RT base without him even seeing you
I killed off a farsight bomb with my daemons. He for some reason decided to deep strike him so I ran my 3 squads of daemonettes and 3 seekers as spread out as I possibly could. My 2 skull cannons and soulgrinder made his kroot mostly dead first round. He dropped his farsight bomb and killed off a unit of seekers and daemonettes completely and almost finished another one while his riptides whittled down another squad of seekers and one skull cannon. Unfortunately for him his jump roll was only 5". Third turn I assaulted first with the almost dead unit of daemonettes and somehow got the herald in though the rest of the squad was wasted. Then I charged with the 2 mostly alive units of seekers and a full squad of daemonettes, dumped a bucket of dice on the.table and called it good.
They do not generate warp charge points until the start a turn on the board as per raw.
That is an awful long time to live against the tau. Have fun with it. My tau continue to laugh at rune priests. If you were running them up in land raiders I would be more worried.
cryhavok wrote: Funny thing about rune priests in drop pods:
They do not generate warp charge points until the start a turn on the board as per raw.
That is an awful long time to live against the tau. Have fun with it. My tau continue to laugh at rune priests. If you were running them up in land raiders I would be more worried.
Ingesting, I don't know anyone who plays it this way. I wouldn't expect to get a favorable tourney ruling on it.
cryhavok wrote: Funny thing about rune priests in drop pods:
They do not generate warp charge points until the start a turn on the board as per raw.
That is an awful long time to live against the tau. Have fun with it. My tau continue to laugh at rune priests. If you were running them up in land raiders I would be more worried.
Ingesting, I don't know anyone who plays it this way. I wouldn't expect to get a favorable tourney ruling on it.
cryhavok wrote: Funny thing about rune priests in drop pods:
They do not generate warp charge points until the start a turn on the board as per raw.
That is an awful long time to live against the tau. Have fun with it. My tau continue to laugh at rune priests. If you were running them up in land raiders I would be more worried.
Ingesting, I don't know anyone who plays it this way. I wouldn't expect to get a favorable tourney ruling on it.
Yea because he is actually completely wrong
Wrong?
-Psykers generate warp charge points at start of turn
-Reserve rules state you can not use any special abilities or rules that are used at the start of turn, the turn they come into play
-psyker is a special rule
Unless I am missing some permission in a faq or over looked something, I am not wrong.
I do hope that the rule against this though for the sake of my tzeentch chaos deamons who really dislike it. However, as we are discussing the, arguably, most cheese power being used against one of the most cheese units, I think Ill stick with raw till it gets ruled otherwise.
cryhavok wrote: Funny thing about rune priests in drop pods:
They do not generate warp charge points until the start a turn on the board as per raw.
That is an awful long time to live against the tau. Have fun with it. My tau continue to laugh at rune priests. If you were running them up in land raiders I would be more worried.
it doesn't matter, between murderous hurricane and tempest wraith, Now 1/6 of the deathstar take a wound on entry, and on the thrust move. Plus they are now limited to one dice worth of movement. So they can't escape as easily and are taking his without the rune priest doing much.
Now you could start the deathstar on the table to avoid the 24' bubble, but then you aren't as effective initially. Rune Priests with a bikes or jumppacks moves up, jaws the Riptides. Even if you kill them, you just lost your 250 pt unit to a 125 pt unit. Given terrain, it is quite possible that one could be completely out of the line of return fire.
Since when does generating charges require you to be in play? It simply states when they generate them and how many otherwise the whole FAQ that states controlling players can choose which order to manifest blessing and have reserves arrive in regards to psychers would be utterly pointless. So yea, your totally wrong, and your opinion on cheese is irrelevant.
I'll stick with the general consensus from every national tournament or do you think it's all been a farce watching players psychic shriek the doom from reserve at every major tournament nationwide?
Space wolve Jotww is not that scary as already discussed in this very thread.....
Suits get to separate themselves with drones so your line can hit very few suits indeed.
If i saw 4 rune priests I would just deploy in a line across the board, good luck with your 1 suit.....
Furthermore they will get intercepted by both my riptides on entry.
you also protect the riptides by making sure they cant drop within 24" of him as best you can....which is likely challenging....the riptide vs jaws discussion was in another guys thread on riptides the new helldrake thread.
Note - this is theory hammer for me as I have not faced a wolf list yet.
furthermore, this may be one of those lists you deep strike against going second depending on the make up of the rest o fhis army.
Red Corsair wrote: Since when does generating charges require you to be in play? It simply states when they generate them and how many otherwise the whole FAQ that states controlling players can choose which order to manifest blessing and have reserves arrive in regards to psychers would be utterly pointless. So yea, your totally wrong, and your opinion on cheese is irrelevant.
I'll stick with the general consensus from every national tournament or do you think it's all been a farce watching players psychic shriek the doom from reserve at every major tournament nationwide?
generating charges is part of the psyker special rules, rules that you can not use the turn you arive from reserves according to the reserves rules in the brb. As to that faq, there are ways of getting blessings without spending warp charg points, for example, eldar warlocks, halequin shadowseers, and the blue scribes all manifest powers without expending warp charges. As to the doom using psychic shriek, no fault of thier own if no one at all realized this, maybe the doom should stick to using spirit leech right out the gate as it isnt a psychic power, also most of the dooms I have played against went biomancy, not telepathy.
if you infilitrated kroot why in the world does he need to jump forward over firewarriors? makes no sense, they should be in range.....regardless if its a true farsun deathstar then shadowsun is the warlord so jsj is on 3d6 (average 10") so if they could jump 6" over then they can damn sure jump 10" back.....
I mean two units of 23? kroot is what you had at his front door and he went after a riptide? really?
In my defense i use the farsun star and have won 6 games in a row, and based on my experience, and my tactics/strategy their is a slim to non chance that two units of max kroot will be a danger to me.
I would wipe one unit from the board and assault the other to protect me from riptide shots.
Here would be my shot break down
10 drones farsight 1 fusion from shadowsun into the kroot unit 1
20x str 5 ap 5 will kill...13
14x plasma will kil....9
4x fusion will kill... 3
8x missiles kill...5
OR
I shoot the 20x drone shots, 1 farsight plasma, 1 shadowsun plasma into one unit...killing 15
the other 6(12) plasma, 3 fusion, and 8 missiles into the other kroot unit kill....14
THEN assault 1 with fire warriors/riptide
OR
just shoot both thining them....
both squads neutered, let him charge me with those....hell id set up to let him charge, nueral jammer 1 of the units.......couple more die from shooting at me before charge.....
CHOICES!
IM somewhat dumbfounded. You're STILL not understanding. He deployed. He wanted the Riptides dead. Two of them at BS 8 are quite a threat, which is what I field with my Markerlight swarm doing the assist. He's felt their caress before. So he tried to take one out and succeeded (as one would expect). I then mobbed him and killed the Deathstar. This is not complicated. He saw that he was surrounded and there was at least the LIKELIHOOD he could be charged with 1, maybe even two units. He bet that he could kill one (and nearly did) on overwatch and he might WELL win combat against the other. So he took his shot in a bad situation, at what he knew would ream the REST of his army LATER if he did not. It didn't work out for him. His game was effectively over in round 1 even though it took two more turns to confirm it.
And thats what happens sometimes. This is the risk you run. That unit is a ROAD GRADER of a unit so if the enemy doesn't HAVE units like these, could be a rough day at the office. Thats why allies are cool.
Same thing would happen to that same Deathstar if an IG player with a Psyker Battle squad had faced the Deathstar. The Deathstar unit would be done for on round 1 potentially (but hey the vagaries of war are many so you never know...Could deny the witch or something cool like that).
Now if YOURE confident that YOU will never fall prey to this... Don't worry about it. For everyone else interested in POSSIBILITIES... I present to you these two.
From the very limited info you gave here is where he failed:
-did not support bomb, wasting the biggest strength of the tau.
-did not move away from close enemies (seriously with jetpacks any play that gets caught in cc by something like kroot deserve the shameful fate awaiting them)
-did not take target locks to kill both the riptide and wipe the kroot off the board
-wasted all available supporting fire on first thing to charge as if an infant coulds see plain as day that a second squad is about to charge as well.
That is just off the top of my head, I'm sure an expert, which I am not, could point out more things he did wrong. Yes it worked for you, so does taking candy from a baby, that does not make it a reliable or even advisable way to try for.
As a self proclaimed non-expert, allow me to explain this:
--"supporting" the bomb happened. His drones were nearby within 6" as were fire warriors. Ergo, they ended the Kroot just about. Markerlights fired first, hit three times, and he stole my cover save from me and then blasted me with his amped up BS. Fire Warriors barely contributed. He did exactly as he ought to, given that he couldn't stop my infiltration. Most of the Kroot died On OVERWATCH. Brutal. Failed the charge. Second unit didn't. That is the point.
--He had to move up to HIT the Riptides. He was confident he could bounce back far enough, which didn't happen. Would have had to have rolled quite well in any event given the Kroot hounds.
--Not enough fire to do that. Riptides at long range, he's only getting his single plasma shots, Drones and some missiless. He succeeded anyways, because: Markerlights. and in case it wasn't obvious to you, you have to announbce your shots at the same time. all members of the unit fire simultaneously. He tried to kill BOTH Riptides and/or pin one and trusted his Overwatch. Just didn't work out in the end.
- All that was AVAILABLE for damaging shots on were Fire Warriors and his Deathstar (and Drones , but no damage).
Now here's the thing: It hardly matters. The strategy is sound and if you see an opportunity to do it, you should. If your army cant do it, you'll need another answer. Critiquing the opponent does ZERO here. He had no crystal ball. Your perfect hindsight is kind of cool though. He wishes he had THAT when he played me.
cryhavok wrote: Funny thing about rune priests in drop pods:
They do not generate warp charge points until the start a turn on the board as per raw.
That is an awful long time to live against the tau. Have fun with it. My tau continue to laugh at rune priests. If you were running them up in land raiders I would be more worried.
Ingesting, I don't know anyone who plays it this way. I wouldn't expect to get a favorable tourney ruling on it.
Yea because he is actually completely wrong
That is such a wierd thing to say. I definitely wouldn't try that with anyone here. They'd laugh at you if you tried to say they couldn't cast.
krazykishere wrote: I wonder how farsight bomb would react to masque deepstriking within 12" of it
dont know what masque does but when he deepstrikes he gets interceted by str 8 ap 2 shos fro riptides and in most peoples lists a ton of missiles from broadsides..
IM somewhat dumbfounded. You're STILL not understanding. He deployed. He wanted the Riptides dead. Two of them at BS 8 are quite a threat, which is what I field with my Markerlight swarm doing the assist. He's felt their caress before. So he tried to take one out and succeeded (as one would expect). I then mobbed him and killed the Deathstar. This is not complicated. He saw that he was surrounded and there was at least the LIKELIHOOD he could be charged with 1, maybe even two units. He bet that he could kill one (and nearly did) on overwatch and he might WELL win combat against the other. So he took his shot in a bad situation, at what he knew would ream the REST of his army LATER if he did not. It didn't work out for him. His game was effectively over in round 1 even though it took two more turns to confirm it.
And thats what happens sometimes. This is the risk you run. That unit is a ROAD GRADER of a unit so if the enemy doesn't HAVE units like these, could be a rough day at the office. Thats why allies are cool.
Same thing would happen to that same Deathstar if an IG player with a Psyker Battle squad had faced the Deathstar. The Deathstar unit would be done for on round 1 potentially (but hey the vagaries of war are many so you never know...Could deny the witch or something cool like that).
Now if YOURE confident that YOU will never fall prey to this... Don't worry about it. For everyone else interested in POSSIBILITIES... I present to you these two.
From the very limited info you gave here is where he failed:
-did not support bomb, wasting the biggest strength of the tau.
-did not move away from close enemies (seriously with jetpacks any play that gets caught in cc by something like kroot deserve the shameful fate awaiting them)
-did not take target locks to kill both the riptide and wipe the kroot off the board
-wasted all available supporting fire on first thing to charge as if an infant coulds see plain as day that a second squad is about to charge as well.
That is just off the top of my head, I'm sure an expert, which I am not, could point out more things he did wrong. Yes it worked for you, so does taking candy from a baby, that does not make it a reliable or even advisable way to try for.
As a self proclaimed non-expert, allow me to explain this:
--"supporting" the bomb happened. His drones were nearby within 6" as were fire warriors. Ergo, they ended the Kroot just about. Markerlights fired first, hit three times, and he stole my cover save from me and then blasted me with his amped up BS. Fire Warriors barely contributed. He did exactly as he ought to, given that he couldn't stop my infiltration. Most of the Kroot died On OVERWATCH. Brutal. Failed the charge. Second unit didn't. That is the point.
--He had to move up to HIT the Riptides. He was confident he could bounce back far enough, which didn't happen. Would have had to have rolled quite well in any event given the Kroot hounds.
--Not enough fire to do that. Riptides at long range, he's only getting his single plasma shots, Drones and some missiless. He succeeded anyways, because: Markerlights. and in case it wasn't obvious to you, you have to announbce your shots at the same time. all members of the unit fire simultaneously. He tried to kill BOTH Riptides and/or pin one and trusted his Overwatch. Just didn't work out in the end.
- All that was AVAILABLE for damaging shots on were Fire Warriors and his Deathstar (and Drones , but no damage).
Now here's the thing: It hardly matters. The strategy is sound and if you see an opportunity to do it, you should. If your army cant do it, you'll need another answer. Critiquing the opponent does ZERO here. He had no crystal ball. Your perfect hindsight is kind of cool though. He wishes he had THAT when he played me.
Lets just agree to disagree, since you want to argue from the point of the match you had but i am trying to make it matter to this thread in regards to strategy/tactics over all.
He made bad choices, does not mean he is a bad player, it happens.
I also dont know his list or you and you keep adding new details in each post you make trying to make your point.
cryhavok wrote: Funny thing about rune priests in drop pods:
They do not generate warp charge points until the start a turn on the board as per raw.
That is an awful long time to live against the tau. Have fun with it. My tau continue to laugh at rune priests. If you were running them up in land raiders I would be more worried.
Ingesting, I don't know anyone who plays it this way. I wouldn't expect to get a favorable tourney ruling on it.
Yea because he is actually completely wrong
That is such a wierd thing to say. I definitely wouldn't try that with anyone here. They'd laugh at you if you tried to say they couldn't cast.
I agree that they can use their psychic powers for sure!
Seems Kind of weird that the opponent with the farsight bomb had nothing else to shoot at some lousy kroot to protect his bomb unit from double charge next turn. Since you were playing against allies, the cover saves for kroot can be ignored easily.
Then why do you keep ignoring this comment below? If it worked for you, then you got lucky. just say I got lucky and don't preach it as a sound tactic. Who even takes maxed unit of kroot for the most part anyways? If you had it was probably a rare occurrence, and most people (including yourself from other threads) take smaller units that won't be able to pull off this random luck again.
You're not understanding. You charge with the normal unit, then hit the Farsun with the real threat. Losing the one pays for itself.
I did this tonight actually. I infiltrated two kroot units and then, after he came up and tried to kill the Riptides (He got one), the Kroot both charged after I hit the unit with Pathfinder Rail Ridles+Carbines. He nearly killed all the kroot from one unit and the other unit swarmed him. Swept him. Not easy to do, only won by 2 thanks to the Krootox, but it was enough to break them. I can't say that I would want to have to count on Kroot for THAT heavy lifting every time, but it worked.
If you don't rely on tanks, the Deathstar is LESS scary. But even in this example, it was a squeeker.
Powerful powerful unit, that Deathstar is. Killed two units and did a number on my third but even so, I lost far less points and used far less to get it done. So I felt good about it.
I don't think you can rely on your opponent being brain dead enough to get his Farsight unit within charge range of multiple Kroot (or whatever) units very often. That's just ridiculous. I obviously don't know how your opponent's army is constructed, but in my Tau armies, I've become a bit of a pie plate freak. If I somehow HAD to get my Farsight bomb in that awful position, for whatever reason, you could count on those Kroot units eating some pretty substantial firepower to thin them out, likely to the point of insignificance.
FYI, just running the numbers, you'd kill about 11 drones if you charged with a maxed Kroot unit - 20 Kroot, 3 Krootoxes (oxen?), and 10 hounds - and would then eat roughly 10 wounds in return from the suits alone. I'd call that a reasonably balanced combat despite all the unlikely advantages being in favor of the Kroot. The units also have equal initiative, assuming you had a Kroot hound around somewhere, so even after your opponent failed his Ld 8 check, you still didn't have an amazing shot at sweeping him. Basically, a combo of colossally bad tactics by your opponent and pretty dang good luck by you led to a catastrophic result. Like you said, I'm not sure relying on Kroot - or any other units - to get that job done would be wise.
Red Corsair wrote: Since when does generating charges require you to be in play? It simply states when they generate them and how many otherwise the whole FAQ that states controlling players can choose which order to manifest blessing and have reserves arrive in regards to psychers would be utterly pointless. So yea, your totally wrong, and your opinion on cheese is irrelevant.
I'll stick with the general consensus from every national tournament or do you think it's all been a farce watching players psychic shriek the doom from reserve at every major tournament nationwide?
generating charges is part of the psyker special rules, rules that you can not use the turn you arive from reserves according to the reserves rules in the brb. As to that faq, there are ways of getting blessings without spending warp charg points, for example, eldar warlocks, halequin shadowseers, and the blue scribes all manifest powers without expending warp charges. As to the doom using psychic shriek, no fault of thier own if no one at all realized this, maybe the doom should stick to using spirit leech right out the gate as it isnt a psychic power, also most of the dooms I have played against went biomancy, not telepathy.
Except its not an active trait its passive.It says a unit cannot USE any special abilities the turn it arrives, read the generating warp charges section and you will see it states the player does not do a thing and it happens eery turn automatically, big difference. I don't USE the psycher rule to generate warp charges, it simply happens. According to your own logic a riptide cannot use FNP the turn it deepstrikes, your wrong.
Deepstrike (with no scatter If you have farsight be warlord)
JSJ (the jet move could be 3d6 if shadowsun is the warlord i think this is the best choice)
Infilitrate (some debate is being had as to if infiltrate confers to units joined)
Shoot at 8 different targets SHOOT AT 8 TARGETS!!
4+/2+ cover save thanks to shadowsun shroud/stealth
Everything is twin linked
Everything ignores cover
Can get - stubborn, monster hunter, tank hunter (for the unit) the others are the model only so have little use
Has 100% look out sir
Hit and Run at Init 5 (cant be tied up in combat unless you want to!)
Shortest range gun 18" with jsj it can keep at least 24" from most targets
Drones are BS 3 (twin linked, ignore cover, pinning)
Volume of fire unit (40-46 total shots twin linked, ignores cover)
Quality of fire Unit (11-17 ap1/ap2 twin linked ignores cover shots)
Thanks for the run down! I am familiar with most of that already.
I still dont see this unit being that bad. Its no where near the level of nob bikers when they were the new kids on the block.
The nob biker unit could take a huge amount of fire without taking many casualties and, if it did take casualties, it would still roll almost anything it got its hands on. It was also a scoring unit so had to be dealt with.
The Farsight unit will be loosing models right away to any AI fire. (just S.marine stats). And every model lost reduces its firepower. If you can kill 10 space marines worth of gun drones the unit looses its anti-horde guns.
Its a good deathstar for sure, and like all good deathstars it removes most of the strategy from the game and wipes the floor with randoms at your LGS, but its not overpowered IMO.
Red Corsair wrote: Since when does generating charges require you to be in play? It simply states when they generate them and how many otherwise the whole FAQ that states controlling players can choose which order to manifest blessing and have reserves arrive in regards to psychers would be utterly pointless. So yea, your totally wrong, and your opinion on cheese is irrelevant.
I'll stick with the general consensus from every national tournament or do you think it's all been a farce watching players psychic shriek the doom from reserve at every major tournament nationwide?
generating charges is part of the psyker special rules, rules that you can not use the turn you arive from reserves according to the reserves rules in the brb. As to that faq, there are ways of getting blessings without spending warp charg points, for example, eldar warlocks, halequin shadowseers, and the blue scribes all manifest powers without expending warp charges. As to the doom using psychic shriek, no fault of thier own if no one at all realized this, maybe the doom should stick to using spirit leech right out the gate as it isnt a psychic power, also most of the dooms I have played against went biomancy, not telepathy.
Except its not an active trait its passive.It says a unit cannot USE any special abilities the turn it arrives, read the generating warp charges section and you will see it states the player does not do a thing and it happens eery turn automatically, big difference. I don't USE the psycher rule to generate warp charges, it simply happens. According to your own logic a riptide cannot use FNP the turn it deepstrikes, your wrong.
Okay I re read the generating warp charges section and I will concede your point here. Your example of the riptide is a bit messed up though, the riptide isnt using the ability to get feel no pain, the ethereal is, or a peice of equipment gives it to him continuously. The conection I was making was between the timing of gaining the warpcharge points and the reserve rule about start of turn abilities. I just missed the connection between 'must use' and 'happens automatically without doing anything.' I really don't see the connection to even use the riptide in relation to this at all, unless your aim was no more than giving an example of something obviously wrong even though it has nothing to do with the situation.
Red Corsair wrote: Since when does generating charges require you to be in play? It simply states when they generate them and how many otherwise the whole FAQ that states controlling players can choose which order to manifest blessing and have reserves arrive in regards to psychers would be utterly pointless. So yea, your totally wrong, and your opinion on cheese is irrelevant.
I'll stick with the general consensus from every national tournament or do you think it's all been a farce watching players psychic shriek the doom from reserve at every major tournament nationwide?
generating charges is part of the psyker special rules, rules that you can not use the turn you arive from reserves according to the reserves rules in the brb. As to that faq, there are ways of getting blessings without spending warp charg points, for example, eldar warlocks, halequin shadowseers, and the blue scribes all manifest powers without expending warp charges. As to the doom using psychic shriek, no fault of thier own if no one at all realized this, maybe the doom should stick to using spirit leech right out the gate as it isnt a psychic power, also most of the dooms I have played against went biomancy, not telepathy.
Except its not an active trait its passive.It says a unit cannot USE any special abilities the turn it arrives, read the generating warp charges section and you will see it states the player does not do a thing and it happens eery turn automatically, big difference. I don't USE the psycher rule to generate warp charges, it simply happens. According to your own logic a riptide cannot use FNP the turn it deepstrikes, your wrong.
Okay I re read the generating warp charges section and I will concede your point here. Your example of the riptide is a bit messed up though, the riptide isnt using the ability to get feel no pain, the ethereal is, or a peice of equipment gives it to him continuously. The conection I was making was between the timing of gaining the warpcharge points and the reserve rule about start of turn abilities. I just missed the connection between 'must use' and 'happens automatically without doing anything.' I really don't see the connection to even use the riptide in relation to this at all, unless your aim was no more than giving an example of something obviously wrong even though it has nothing to do with the situation.
No my intent on that example was to use a more obvious scenario demonstrating how your reasoning was wrong. It's much more cut and clear why FNP should work but the warp charges essentially fall into the same category.
Coyote81 wrote: Seems Kind of weird that the opponent with the farsight bomb had nothing else to shoot at some lousy kroot to protect his bomb unit from double charge next turn. Since you were playing against allies, the cover saves for kroot can be ignored easily.
Then why do you keep ignoring this comment below? If it worked for you, then you got lucky. just say I got lucky and don't preach it as a sound tactic. Who even takes maxed unit of kroot for the most part anyways? If you had it was probably a rare occurrence, and most people (including yourself from other threads) take smaller units that won't be able to pull off this random luck again.
I think MilkmanAi has things squared and correct.
...This is more proof that you read half a post before responding. He had no kroot to protect his bomb...which you'd know if you read what was said. He had Fire Warriors and I mentioned the problems of wrapping such a large unit. Also, I wasn't playing against allies. The cover save COULD indeed be ignored...and he DID ignore it, using Markerlights.
The central issue that you SEEM...to be missing... is that he did not WANT to be bombed by TWO untra-accurate Riptides on my turn. And he DID think he could handle at least one Kroot charge.
Now here's the problem: You have fixated yourself, for whatever reason, on the fact they WERE Kroot. Irrelevant. The TACTIC is what was being discussed. I just used my EXAMPLE of a success to ILLUSTRATE the ACTUAL point.
This seems to be confusing some people. Perhaps that helps. If your infinte hindsight allows you to have known the perfect thing to do, you might also like to predict how many my Riptides would have killed in subsequent turns had he NOT taken the risk he did? Do you have a HINDSIGHT number on that? Or no?
Exactly.
So focus on the ball. The ball is... Dual charges work. Make sure you use units that are faster. And again... This is just one idea, as of course, you wont all have the luxury of such units in all lists.
Dual charge is really hard to pull off against a equally skilled opponent. Just seems like a very unlikely scenario. but ok, I concede that it's possible. but my point was that he seemed to have 0 other unit in the scenario that could help dealing with kroot, seems weird, doesn't take many fire warriors and marker lights to make those kroot useless.
Mali wrote: Considering that a farsight bomb is usually around a 1000 points with drones its 28 models. Said tau player must have at least 28firewarriorson the table. your looking at about 1500 points right there. 2/3 of which is in reserve. just Dakka his little remaining guys to death on turn one and that over costed unit will never see the light of day.
The rule is equal number of units not models. Since he would need two troop choices anyways unless they have two hqs the whole bomb can be kept in reserves.
Coyote81 wrote: Dual charge is really hard to pull off against a equally skilled opponent. Just seems like a very unlikely scenario. but ok, I concede that it's possible. but my point was that he seemed to have 0 other unit in the scenario that could help dealing with kroot, seems weird, doesn't take many fire warriors and marker lights to make those kroot useless.
I have no idea what that comment was supposed to mean. Are you some how implying that shooting at Kroot with weapons that wound on 2's, out range their guns, and can ignore their cover and armor would some how be falling into a trap? I mean the point was literally that if he had anything else in his army besides the Death Star unit, then he would have been able to do some damage to the Kroot. That's why it doesn't seem like a sound tactic to try and use a dual charge against the unit.
Mali wrote: Considering that a farsight bomb is usually around a 1000 points with drones its 28 models. Said tau player must have at least 28firewarriorson the table. your looking at about 1500 points right there. 2/3 of which is in reserve. just Dakka his little remaining guys to death on turn one and that over costed unit will never see the light of day.
The rule is equal number of units not models. Since he would need two troop choices anyways unless they have two hqs the whole bomb can be kept in reserves.
My 1500 list has this
Farsight shadow sun Death Star -- 19 models
The two characters
body guard with all the fun doodads
6 other body guards -- 5xdouble plasma, 2x double missiles, 1x double fusion
3 units of 10 Kroot with 1 Kroot hound
2 riptides with ion cannon SMS and early warning
The Kroot have three purposes
1. Bubble wrap vs fast assault
2. Infiltrate for objectives
3. Hold backfield objectives
Vs shooty lists i would likely reserve them so they survive longer.
Ouch, 3X10 kroot is a serious hole man. That list throws out some lethal damage I'll give you that but 30 T3 LD7 bodies for 5/6 missions is horrible. Reserving them isn't a great plan as you have no reserve manipulation either. I see bad match ups against guard, necrons horde orks and nids. Really flier heavy and horde lists will own this build. Oh and a more rounded tau list ironically.
I don't know that I'd go as far as saying his Farsight bomb would get owned by other armies, but I'm definitely not comfortable using it at anything points level less than 1750. You just can't support it adequately and achieve enough balance otherwise.
Red Corsair wrote: Ouch, 3X10 kroot is a serious hole man. That list throws out some lethal damage I'll give you that but 30 T3 LD7 bodies for 5/6 missions is horrible. Reserving them isn't a great plan as you have no reserve manipulation either. I see bad match ups against guard, necrons horde orks and nids. Really flier heavy and horde lists will own this build. Oh and a more rounded tau list ironically.
you say that but i dont play the mission and the kroot usualy do die, quickly, mwahaha.....BUT, since the enemy has to live to end of turn 5 to hold missions, I simply do not afford them that opportunity.
It is often a mistake enemies make they simply think they can kill my kroot and play the missions, but if you are focusing on anything other than the deathstar, you will die, plain and simple.
However, on the same token, I dont think your comprehending how HARD it is to hurt the death star and the riptides.
the deathstar puts out a ton of hurt very efficiently where it is needed.
Lets recap at 18" range (the sweet spot until you go for the kill with rapid fire plasma) it puts out 20xstr 5/5 10xstr6/2 , 4x str 8 ap 1, 8xstr 7/ap4 ...thats alot of shots bro! and over 80% land, and 83-90% wound, and MOST of it ignores armor and ALL of it ignores cover....(that can kill 14-16 marines a turn, and shooting at 8 targets, horde armies it kills 27 a turn.
So, after reading through this thread the most viable counters seem to be volume of fire and using multiple units to charge the deathstar. So let's explore these a bit more:
1. Volume of fire: what weapons are ideal? What does your TAC list already have that can be useful?
Right now, it looks like AP3/ignores cover weapons are best, so baleflamers (helldrake) and flamestorm cannons (LR Redeemer) are the 2 most common weapons that fit the description. What else?
2. Dual charge: What units do this best? Perhaps a combo of something cheap to waste shots then charge a CC monster unit? Obviously something very mobile is going to have the best results, is it worth putting them in a transport?
I still view TH/SS termies are a common high-end CC unit, would you be able to get a squad of them into combat?
Finally, a cheap trick to maybe do as GK is the Ulumeathi Plasma Syphon on an Ordo Xenos Inquisitor, makes all plasma weapons within 12" BS1. What are some other "cheap tricks" from other armies (JOTWW has been mentioned) that could neutralize the Tau deathstar?
greyknight12 wrote: So, after reading through this thread the most viable counters seem to be volume of fire and using multiple units to charge the deathstar. So let's explore these a bit more:
1. Volume of fire: what weapons are ideal? What does your TAC list already have that can be useful?
Right now, it looks like AP3/ignores cover weapons are best, so baleflamers (helldrake) and flamestorm cannons (LR Redeemer) are the 2 most common weapons that fit the description. What else?
2. Dual charge: What units do this best? Perhaps a combo of something cheap to waste shots then charge a CC monster unit? Obviously something very mobile is going to have the best results, is it worth putting them in a transport?
I still view TH/SS termies are a common high-end CC unit, would you be able to get a squad of them into combat?
Finally, a cheap trick to maybe do as GK is the Ulumeathi Plasma Syphon on an Ordo Xenos Inquisitor, makes all plasma weapons within 12" BS1. What are some other "cheap tricks" from other armies (JOTWW has been mentioned) that could neutralize the Tau deathstar?
greyknight,
Its 3 categories really
1. Volume of fire --- you need to be 36" range volume of fire, to limit the jsj effect out of your range. Things that fit this. lootas, autocannons, heavy bolters.....all i can think of, but do tac lists really spam these? dakka jets? orks do the max lootas and dakka jets for sure!
2. high strap 3 ignores cover shots -- noise marine blast masters (listed in this thread), imperial guard artillery that ignore cover and are ap3, helldrakes (multiples), jotww, night spinners? the flamers from daemons
3. dual charge -- needs to be FAST beasts, or bikes/jetbikes that can assault, but they also need to survive 1-2 rounds of shooting and then the overwatch. daemon seekers and the like as well.
edit 4th category
4. flier spam -- take 6 croissants, or 6 vendettas! but who couldnt you beat?!?!?!
FUN FACT -- The dude who started this thread has not posted since!
I'm already on board the Arty Carriage hype train, but with a different idea... I'd say a Demon list that abuses Grimoire/Divination is a fantastic counter, assuming it goes first (at 1850 it could probably go second, being able to have a second Hound/Seeker/whatever, but probably not at 1500)
20 Hounds with a 2++ are going to do the trick. Or a Lord of Change with a rerollable 2++ The key for Demons will be keeping the Grimoire alive, so they'll probably want it mounted on a FMC or a herald in a truly gigantic squad.
If firing at one target, how many wounds can the Farsight Bomb do to T4 with a 5++ ?
Edit: Example build. Lord of Change, two Greater Rewards, one lesser reward. Herald of Khorne on Juggernaut with a lesser reward and the Grimnoire. 20 Hounds. 785 points. (more than enough space for some Troops and a few Heralds of Tzeentch to also roll on Divination).
Demons go first. Scout move the Hounds/Juggernaut towards the bomb. 2++ the Hounds. Move 12 inches to surround the Bomb.
Demons go second. Probably deploy the Herald with a smaller Khorne unit out of site, see how many Hounds survive (still use their Scout move to box in Tau movement some). 2++ either LOC or Hounds depending on how many hounds are left. Either one can do the work from there.
Worst case for Tau; 2++ LOC makes it into combat. Either you accept his challenge and he instagibs one of your HQs, or you deny the challenge and he uses precision strikes to remove your Hit and Run.
Worst case for Demons. Tau steal initiative on an aggressive deployment and kill the Herald turn 1.
1. Volume of fire --- you need to be 36" range volume of fire, to limit the jsj effect out of your range. Things that fit this. lootas, autocannons, heavy bolters.....all i can think of, but do tac lists really spam these? dakka jets? orks do the max lootas and dakka jets for sure!
2. high strap 3 ignores cover shots -- noise marine blast masters (listed in this thread), imperial guard artillery that ignore cover and are ap3, helldrakes (multiples), jotww, night spinners? the flamers from daemons
3. dual charge -- needs to be FAST beasts, or bikes/jetbikes that can assault, but they also need to survive 1-2 rounds of shooting and then the overwatch. daemon seekers and the like as well.
edit 4th category
4. flier spam -- take 6 croissants, or 6 vendettas! but who couldnt you beat?!?!?!
FUN FACT -- The dude who started this thread has not posted since!
just want to add one:
5. Eldar/Dark Eldar allies: Eldrad with possible hallucination or 4+ inv save and another farseer with fortune. Let Dark Eldar baron have fortune and then join a beastmaster squad and stay at the front. could ruin your day...
5. Eldar/Dark Eldar allies: Eldrad with possible hallucination or 4+ inv save and another farseer with fortune. Let Dark Eldar baron have fortune and then join a beastmaster squad and stay at the front. could ruin your day...
Fortune only affects units taken from Codex: Eldar. That was FAQ'd quite a while ago. So no re-rollable 2++ invulnerable save on Baron leading Beasts.
5. Eldar/Dark Eldar allies: Eldrad with possible hallucination or 4+ inv save and another farseer with fortune. Let Dark Eldar baron have fortune and then join a beastmaster squad and stay at the front. could ruin your day...
Fortune only affects units taken from Codex: Eldar. That was FAQ'd quite a while ago. So no re-rollable 2++ invulnerable save on Baron leading Beasts.
anonymou5 wrote: I'm already on board the Arty Carriage hype train, but with a different idea... I'd say a Demon list that abuses Grimoire/Divination is a fantastic counter, assuming it goes first (at 1850 it could probably go second, being able to have a second Hound/Seeker/whatever, but probably not at 1500)
20 Hounds with a 2++ are going to do the trick. Or a Lord of Change with a rerollable 2++ The key for Demons will be keeping the Grimoire alive, so they'll probably want it mounted on a FMC or a herald in a truly gigantic squad.
If firing at one target, how many wounds can the Farsight Bomb do to T4 with a 5++ ?
Edit: Example build. Lord of Change, two Greater Rewards, one lesser reward. Herald of Khorne on Juggernaut with a lesser reward and the Grimnoire. 20 Hounds. 785 points. (more than enough space for some Troops and a few Heralds of Tzeentch to also roll on Divination).
Demons go first. Scout move the Hounds/Juggernaut towards the bomb. 2++ the Hounds. Move 12 inches to surround the Bomb.
Demons go second. Probably deploy the Herald with a smaller Khorne unit out of site, see how many Hounds survive (still use their Scout move to box in Tau movement some). 2++ either LOC or Hounds depending on how many hounds are left. Either one can do the work from there.
Worst case for Tau; 2++ LOC makes it into combat. Either you accept his challenge and he instagibs one of your HQs, or you deny the challenge and he uses precision strikes to remove your Hit and Run.
Worst case for Demons. Tau steal initiative on an aggressive deployment and kill the Herald turn 1.
The example above I did at t4 for the horde just reduce total kills by 33% due to invulnerable so...15-16 kills. This does not include riptide damage.
The 2++ reroll is a counter to anyone if you can pull it off. Thankfully if tau go first or the turn you fail the grimoire roll...
5. Eldar/Dark Eldar allies: Eldrad with possible hallucination or 4+ inv save and another farseer with fortune. Let Dark Eldar baron have fortune and then join a beastmaster squad and stay at the front. could ruin your day...
Fortune only affects units taken from Codex: Eldar. That was FAQ'd quite a while ago. So no re-rollable 2++ invulnerable save on Baron leading Beasts.
but ICs become part of the unit they join.
Indeed. I field a wraithguard unit with Eldrad, farseer and baron and give them Fortune. Wraithguard are an Eldar unit and Baron still gets it when joined. Then he flies of and joins the beastmaster. Still legal..
The example above I did at t4 for the horde just reduce total kills by 33% due to invulnerable so...15-16 kills. This does not include riptide damage.
The 2++ reroll is a counter to anyone if you can pull it off. Thankfully if tau go first or the turn you fail the grimoire roll...
Well, hounds have two wounds. Lets say 10 dead because some of it is str8. Riptide kills a few more. Grimnoire stays alive. I was asking because I was wondering if the hound pack was a good place to run the grimnoire or not
Keep in mind that Fateweaver bumps the success rate of the grimnoire to something like 85%. Although then you have to drop The Lord of Change (or the heralds, but then you might not get 4++ to turn into a 2++. Still could pull the same nonsense with Fatewever, heralds, hounds and a Demon prince of tzeentch. (Or a second Hound pack instead of the DP)
There are a few Armies that can handle the Demon/2++ nonsense. Notably Dark Eldar. Venoms have the mobility to avoid the buffed unit, an the poisoned firepower to down everything else. They can do it without an allied farseer as well, but that just makes it an auto win for them (although not for much longer)
Red Corsair wrote: Ouch, 3X10 kroot is a serious hole man. That list throws out some lethal damage I'll give you that but 30 T3 LD7 bodies for 5/6 missions is horrible. Reserving them isn't a great plan as you have no reserve manipulation either. I see bad match ups against guard, necrons horde orks and nids. Really flier heavy and horde lists will own this build. Oh and a more rounded tau list ironically.
you say that but i dont play the mission and the kroot usualy do die, quickly, mwahaha.....BUT, since the enemy has to live to end of turn 5 to hold missions, I simply do not afford them that opportunity.
It is often a mistake enemies make they simply think they can kill my kroot and play the missions, but if you are focusing on anything other than the deathstar, you will die, plain and simple.
However, on the same token, I dont think your comprehending how HARD it is to hurt the death star and the riptides.
the deathstar puts out a ton of hurt very efficiently where it is needed.
Lets recap at 18" range (the sweet spot until you go for the kill with rapid fire plasma) it puts out 20xstr 5/5 10xstr6/2 , 4x str 8 ap 1, 8xstr 7/ap4 ...thats alot of shots bro! and over 80% land, and 83-90% wound, and MOST of it ignores armor and ALL of it ignores cover....(that can kill 14-16 marines a turn, and shooting at 8 targets, horde armies it kills 27 a turn.
nasty!
Well no offense but your playing bad opponents then. 30 t3 ld7 wounds is a joke for any of my armies to deal with. Not to mention your deathstar is slow, its jetpack infantry, 33% of missions are hammer and anvil, my 3 t-fire canons will rape your kroot at 60" for only 300 while 1350 of your army is trying to cross the table. Sorry that unit can dump loads of fire but i am more afraid of 45 lootas then that unit. They have range and volume of fire and again cost MUCH less. Take for example 1000 points worth of stern guard, that can deal MORE damage on turn 1 anywhere on the table will creating 9 targets factoring in the 3 deathwind pods. Basically any list that is stupid enough to walk backwards into your bomb cheeks spread deserves to lose, I don't see you wining with the "i don't play the missions" against a good player though.
Look at the damage your bragging about now consider how much damage 3 A barges and 7 NS throw out for 970. That's 60 S7 HITS before any arcs a turn, transports scoring units anywhere and is more durable.
5. Eldar/Dark Eldar allies: Eldrad with possible hallucination or 4+ inv save and another farseer with fortune. Let Dark Eldar baron have fortune and then join a beastmaster squad and stay at the front. could ruin your day...
Fortune only affects units taken from Codex: Eldar. That was FAQ'd quite a while ago. So no re-rollable 2++ invulnerable save on Baron leading Beasts.
but ICs become part of the unit they join.
you can cast fortune on Barron joining an eldar unit (the harlistar or jetseer council), If eldar IC's join a DE unit, that is still a DE unit.
Mali wrote: Considering that a farsight bomb is usually around a 1000 points with drones its 28 models. Said tau player must have at least 28firewarriorson the table. your looking at about 1500 points right there. 2/3 of which is in reserve. just Dakka his little remaining guys to death on turn one and that over costed unit will never see the light of day.
This, I saw a veteran player tabled by an IG kid on turn one because he didn't have enough units to soak up the Guards firepower.
Red Corsair wrote: Ouch, 3X10 kroot is a serious hole man. That list throws out some lethal damage I'll give you that but 30 T3 LD7 bodies for 5/6 missions is horrible. Reserving them isn't a great plan as you have no reserve manipulation either. I see bad match ups against guard, necrons horde orks and nids. Really flier heavy and horde lists will own this build. Oh and a more rounded tau list ironically.
you say that but i dont play the mission and the kroot usualy do die, quickly, mwahaha.....BUT, since the enemy has to live to end of turn 5 to hold missions, I simply do not afford them that opportunity.
It is often a mistake enemies make they simply think they can kill my kroot and play the missions, but if you are focusing on anything other than the deathstar, you will die, plain and simple.
However, on the same token, I dont think your comprehending how HARD it is to hurt the death star and the riptides.
the deathstar puts out a ton of hurt very efficiently where it is needed.
Lets recap at 18" range (the sweet spot until you go for the kill with rapid fire plasma) it puts out 20xstr 5/5 10xstr6/2 , 4x str 8 ap 1, 8xstr 7/ap4 ...thats alot of shots bro! and over 80% land, and 83-90% wound, and MOST of it ignores armor and ALL of it ignores cover....(that can kill 14-16 marines a turn, and shooting at 8 targets, horde armies it kills 27 a turn.
nasty!
Well no offense but your playing bad opponents then. 30 t3 ld7 wounds is a joke for any of my armies to deal with. Not to mention your deathstar is slow, its jetpack infantry, 33% of missions are hammer and anvil, my 3 t-fire canons will rape your kroot at 60" for only 300 while 1350 of your army is trying to cross the table. Sorry that unit can dump loads of fire but i am more afraid of 45 lootas then that unit. They have range and volume of fire and again cost MUCH less. Take for example 1000 points worth of stern guard, that can deal MORE damage on turn 1 anywhere on the table will creating 9 targets factoring in the 3 deathwind pods. Basically any list that is stupid enough to walk backwards into your bomb cheeks spread deserves to lose, I don't see you wining with the "i don't play the missions" against a good player though.
Look at the damage your bragging about now consider how much damage 3 A barges and 7 NS throw out for 970. That's 60 S7 HITS before any arcs a turn, transports scoring units anywhere and is more durable.
your examples are not good.
neither of them ignore armor or ignore cover so i still get 3+ armor and maybe a 2+ cover (terrain depending)
I faced a necron list and in one turn my bomb took - 2 night scythes, 2x 10 warrior units (rapid fire) 3 a barges and 1 command barge. It was a massive amount of wounds, unfortunately for them i get my armor saves or even my 2+ cover save if I am in cover. It was the closest battle i have had they got me down to 2 suits, shadowsun and a wounded farsight.
I didnt get to thin down his shooting since i had to kill his mass of wraiths in turn 1 and turn 2.
1st of all, TFC have cover ignoring rounds and that 12 blasts so trust me, your kroot squads going to feel some hurt. You probably need to learn up on other books before redacting comments.
Secondly that's only 300 points and no it isn't a bad example. This is a very common unit in 6th and evaporates tau infantry, I know from seeing it happen repeatedly.
Thirdly My examples are not demonstrating how to kill that deathstar, I am pointing out that you simply ignore it and win the game. All deathstars are bad for this reason, the only reason draigowing had any time in the sun was due to the fact it SCORED.
Without DS which you shouldn't do anyway, that unit is not fast and lacks range aside from it's pods, it will struggle to kill droves of scoring units. You beat an ork list that was not optimized because he fed you his units like a moron. The necron player didn't even know how many HP's a NS has! Yea those are some stellar notches on your belt.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Oh and sternguard will rofl stomp that bomb if played right, they can hit the sides that have drones and support suits first, once those guys are dead the far-sight bomb is hobbled hard.
Red Corsair wrote: 1st of all, TFC have cover ignoring rounds and that 12 blasts so trust me, your kroot squads going to feel some hurt. You probably need to learn up on other books before redacting comments.
Secondly that's only 300 points and no it isn't a bad example. This is a very common unit in 6th and evaporates tau infantry, I know from seeing it happen repeatedly.
Thirdly My examples are not demonstrating how to kill that deathstar, I am pointing out that you simply ignore it and win the game. All deathstars are bad for this reason, the only reason draigowing had any time in the sun was due to the fact it SCORED.
Without DS which you shouldn't do anyway, that unit is not fast and lacks range aside from it's pods, it will struggle to kill droves of scoring units. You beat an ork list that was not optimized because he fed you his units like a moron. The necron player didn't even know how many HP's a NS has! Yea those are some stellar notches on your belt.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Oh and sternguard will rofl stomp that bomb if played right, they can hit the sides that have drones and support suits first, once those guys are dead the far-sight bomb is hobbled hard.
if your shooting the kroot then by all means blow them away, i was talking about the deathstar.
How is the unit not fast? move 6" jsj3d6 average of 16" that seems fast to me....nothing is faster than can still shoot, only thing faster are turbo boosting dudes.
what option do 90 orcs have? i start 12" in jum 6" my plasma are shooting 42" across the board? what masterful movement strategy dos he have?
i detest the continual hypothetical units declaration of how easy they can win (with no back up mind you) that are akin to "oh yeah!!! id punch you in the nose!!!" they are worthless, but we talking one sternguard?
if so Ill take my chances with two riptides intercepting with ap2 pie plates, and getting my cover saves on the star.
do people still take sternguard?
sorry if i come off snarky just got back from surgery, alittle loopy!
greyknight12 wrote: So, after reading through this thread the most viable counters seem to be volume of fire and using multiple units to charge the deathstar. So let's explore these a bit more:
1. Volume of fire: what weapons are ideal? What does your TAC list already have that can be useful?
Right now, it looks like AP3/ignores cover weapons are best, so baleflamers (helldrake) and flamestorm cannons (LR Redeemer) are the 2 most common weapons that fit the description. What else?
2. Dual charge: What units do this best? Perhaps a combo of something cheap to waste shots then charge a CC monster unit? Obviously something very mobile is going to have the best results, is it worth putting them in a transport?
I still view TH/SS termies are a common high-end CC unit, would you be able to get a squad of them into combat?
Finally, a cheap trick to maybe do as GK is the Ulumeathi Plasma Syphon on an Ordo Xenos Inquisitor, makes all plasma weapons within 12" BS1. What are some other "cheap tricks" from other armies (JOTWW has been mentioned) that could neutralize the Tau deathstar?
The the Ulumeathi Plasma Syphon is an excellent counter to the deathstar, if its built around plasma. Getting it close enough is the trick I would think, but it IS an answer and not unworthy of mention.
Psyker Battle Squads would be super.
Jaws of the World Wolf.
Chaos Dimensional Key could give the unit a lot of wounds just from moving and jumping. Enough to force morale? Who knows.
Blast Masters are very scary to the Crisis suits. Someone mentioned that. There are easily 4 of those in every Slaanesh army, if not 5 opr 6!
The Dark Reapers, one of my favorite units, using their Tempest Launcher can cause serious damage. As it is a BARRAGE, the individual models fro mthe center can only take cover if actually IN it. and Crack shot re-rolls are pretty bodacious.
Some counters just rely on sheer brute force. a pair of Death Company Furiosos with AV 13 would laugh off that plasma and walk through any "walls" of Fire Warriors you built to stop them in all likelihood. Take cover behind the pods, bracket the unit and bring up the LandRaider moving flat out for a triple charge threat. Use the rest of the army to kill the Deathstars supporting fire. Meltas through the drop pod cover would be the only weapon that would hurt any of it. He would be trying to kill those same units anyways. may as well have a showdown now.
Just some thoughts. Obviously there are some answers just in volume.
Punishers with Pask fire 32 accurate times.
DarkStrider can lower the Toughness of a unit by 1. that turns Pathfinder Rail Rifles into instant death weapons against Crisis Suits.
Red Corsair wrote: 1st of all, TFC have cover ignoring rounds and that 12 blasts so trust me, your kroot squads going to feel some hurt. You probably need to learn up on other books before redacting comments.
Secondly that's only 300 points and no it isn't a bad example. This is a very common unit in 6th and evaporates tau infantry, I know from seeing it happen repeatedly.
Thirdly My examples are not demonstrating how to kill that deathstar, I am pointing out that you simply ignore it and win the game. All deathstars are bad for this reason, the only reason draigowing had any time in the sun was due to the fact it SCORED.
Without DS which you shouldn't do anyway, that unit is not fast and lacks range aside from it's pods, it will struggle to kill droves of scoring units. You beat an ork list that was not optimized because he fed you his units like a moron. The necron player didn't even know how many HP's a NS has! Yea those are some stellar notches on your belt.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Oh and sternguard will rofl stomp that bomb if played right, they can hit the sides that have drones and support suits first, once those guys are dead the far-sight bomb is hobbled hard.
if your shooting the kroot then by all means blow them away, i was talking about the deathstar.
How is the unit not fast? move 6" jsj3d6 average of 16" that seems fast to me....nothing is faster than can still shoot, only thing faster are turbo boosting dudes.
what option do 90 orcs have? i start 12" in jum 6" my plasma are shooting 42" across the board? what masterful movement strategy dos he have?
i detest the continual hypothetical units declaration of how easy they can win (with no back up mind you) that are akin to "oh yeah!!! id punch you in the nose!!!" they are worthless, but we talking one sternguard?
if so Ill take my chances with two riptides intercepting with ap2 pie plates, and getting my cover saves on the star.
do people still take sternguard?
sorry if i come off snarky just got back from surgery, alittle loopy!
Yes, the bomb is fast but only after shooting. Your plasma and fusion need to be within 18 inch for maximum effect so you still got to get relatively close. After that you need that 3xd6 move to be good. Don't get me wrong, the farsightbomb can be pretty brutal. Sum armies don't stand a chance against this unit but a lot of competitive lists can give you a run for your money. Its one of the best deathstars out their but It still has the same weakness as all deathstars. One mistake or stupid bad luck and you can lose the game.
My super beastmaster/ baron/farseer unit once got into close combat with a furioso dreadnought. At the end of his turn I want to hit and run and I trow a 6!! I lose another turn and by then he dropped his assaultmarines on all the objectives and I could't win the mission anymore.
This kind of stuff wil also happen to you especially when you got one very important crisissuit with all those great upgrades that cannot use 'look out sir'.
Theorius wrote: i detest the continual hypothetical units declaration of how easy they can win
I can imagine, but others feel the same way. You got an answer for anything but the 6ed got more 'paper,rock, scissor' and their still a lot of competitive TAC lists that can ruin your day.
- Imperial guard with vendetta's coming out of reserve filled with shooting veterans
- Tyranid monster list with 2 flying hive tyrant with twin linked devourers coming out of reserves (with possible iron arm)
- furioso dreadnought with 3 flamer templates coming out of a droppod
- 3 helldrakes
- 10 sternguard with 2 heavy flamers + 3 combiflamers and 5 combiplasma or sum other setup (the combat squad after dropping)
- Jetseer counsel with baron (probably going to change but maybe you get sumthing scarier)
These things are not that uncommon in competitive lists.
This is a fine example of another one of those units you don't want to butt heads with. Decent maneuverability, lots of powerful long range shooting but it's sucking up too many points.
How do you beat the bomb? A Grot out of line of sight on an objective.
Once you drop the Kroot and the 2 Riptides, which is not that hard for a shooting army that dedicates itself to the task, the bombs only recourse is to table you. Without those units the Tau player still has a powerful combat force, but has lost all his utility.
If they can drop your entire scoring contingent they earn a draw on objectives, if they table you entirely they can win, but with no ability to ignore LoS they are going to struggle. The bomb can ignore cover so the classic objective behind an Aegis is worthless, they will just shoot you off it, but once they lose sight of you entirely, like in the corner of a ruin, their firepower is reduced to 0. Now obviously that's what the Riptides would be good for with SMS and exactly the reason you are gunning for them early.
From that moment the Bomb has to close in because if they can't draw a bead on that unit they flat out lose and the Tau player is on the back foot, he's maybe only got till turn 5 to hunt it down and the rest of your army only has to roadblock him until then.
With 1000pts of force multiplier jammed in together like that it's probably the nastiest deathstar on the market right now and so trading punches with it is a losing battle. Play the objective, don't try and be Superman trading punches with Doomsday.
Dunklezahn wrote: This is a fine example of another one of those units you don't want to butt heads with. Decent maneuverability, lots of powerful long range shooting but it's sucking up too many points.
How do you beat the bomb? A Grot out of line of sight on an objective.
Once you drop the Kroot and the 2 Riptides, which is not that hard for a shooting army that dedicates itself to the task, the bombs only recourse is to table you. Without those units the Tau player still has a powerful combat force, but has lost all his utility.
If they can drop your entire scoring contingent they earn a draw on objectives, if they table you entirely they can win, but with no ability to ignore LoS they are going to struggle. The bomb can ignore cover so the classic objective behind an Aegis is worthless, they will just shoot you off it, but once they lose sight of you entirely, like in the corner of a ruin, their firepower is reduced to 0. Now obviously that's what the Riptides would be good for with SMS and exactly the reason you are gunning for them early.
From that moment the Bomb has to close in because if they can't draw a bead on that unit they flat out lose and the Tau player is on the back foot, he's maybe only got till turn 5 to hunt it down and the rest of your army only has to roadblock him until then.
With 1000pts of force multiplier jammed in together like that it's probably the nastiest deathstar on the market right now and so trading punches with it is a losing battle. Play the objective, don't try and be Superman trading punches with Doomsday.
very good points!
The way the deathstar TRIES to overcome this weakness is reserving the kroots so they arent even on the board until turn 2 or 3 so they are not taking hits, and the deathstar + riptides can whittle down the enemy significantly.
It often does come down to tabling the enemy though and the deathstar has the tools since each and every suit can shoot at a diffent targets and cover does not help you and generall distances does not help you the only thing is completely out of line of sight.
again this is based on my 6 games thus far.
dark angels twice - once ravenwing and once deathwing
necrons - mass wraiths, 3 barges, command barge, 2 night scythes
orks - 90 shootas, 6 nob bikers and warboss, 30 lootas, defcopta
imperial guard - 2 vendettas, 2 basilisks, 2 big blobs with sabre cannons (had like 10 lascannons)
tyranids - hive tyrants, 2 tervigons, hive guard, gargoyles, carnifexs x 2 ((was a newer player))
Yes, the bomb is fast but only after shooting. Your plasma and fusion need to be within 18 inch for maximum effect so you still got to get relatively close. After that you need that 3xd6 move to be good. Don't get me wrong, the farsightbomb can be pretty brutal. Sum armies don't stand a chance against this unit but a lot of competitive lists can give you a run for your money. Its one of the best deathstars out their but It still has the same weakness as all deathstars. One mistake or stupid bad luck and you can lose the game.
My super beastmaster/ baron/farseer unit once got into close combat with a furioso dreadnought. At the end of his turn I want to hit and run and I trow a 6!! I lose another turn and by then he dropped his assaultmarines on all the objectives and I could't win the mission anymore.
This kind of stuff wil also happen to you especially when you got one very important crisissuit with all those great upgrades that cannot use 'look out sir'.
Theorius wrote: i detest the continual hypothetical units declaration of how easy they can win
I can imagine, but others feel the same way. You got an answer for anything but the 6ed got more 'paper,rock, scissor' and their still a lot of competitive TAC lists that can ruin your day.
- Imperial guard with vendetta's coming out of reserve filled with shooting veterans -- these are dangerous but i get my cover saves
- Tyranid monster list with 2 flying hive tyrant with twin linked devourers coming out of reserves (with possible iron arm) -- get cover saves and i have monster hunter
- furioso dreadnought with 3 flamer templates coming out of a droppod -- get my armor saves
- 3 helldrakes -- 3 of them are dangerous, no question hopefully interceptor drops one. Furthermore I personally would space out in a straight line suit, drone, suit, drone and the templates cant hit that many suits and each suit has 2 wounds
- 10 sternguard with 2 heavy flamers + 3 combiflamers and 5 combiplasma or sum other setup (the combat squad after dropping) -- get my cover saves
- Jetseer counsel with baron (probably going to change but maybe you get sumthing scarier) -- going to ignore till new codex
These things are not that uncommon in competitive lists.
I dont mind counter arguements but they should have substance as to how and why they can kill/survive the deathstar, just showing some basic thought on how you can overcome the defenses of the bomb, or survive its fire.
just saying. "My drop pod furioso will kill it no problem" provides no information and is not helpful....
saying something like....the droppod can come in an average of 9" from the star and its heavy flamers would do this many hits this many wounds....etc ((i dont know what furiousos do this is fake mind you!!!))
and how it would survive getting intercepted by 2 riptides.
and how would it survive the return fire next turn, or is it suicide?
The example above I did at t4 for the horde just reduce total kills by 33% due to invulnerable so...15-16 kills. This does not include riptide damage.
The 2++ reroll is a counter to anyone if you can pull it off. Thankfully if tau go first or the turn you fail the grimoire roll...
Well, hounds have two wounds. Lets say 10 dead because some of it is str8. Riptide kills a few more. Grimnoire stays alive. I was asking because I was wondering if the hound pack was a good place to run the grimnoire or not
Keep in mind that Fateweaver bumps the success rate of the grimnoire to something like 85%. Although then you have to drop The Lord of Change (or the heralds, but then you might not get 4++ to turn into a 2++. Still could pull the same nonsense with Fatewever, heralds, hounds and a Demon prince of tzeentch. (Or a second Hound pack instead of the DP)
There are a few Armies that can handle the Demon/2++ nonsense. Notably Dark Eldar. Venoms have the mobility to avoid the buffed unit, an the poisoned firepower to down everything else. They can do it without an allied farseer as well, but that just makes it an auto win for them (although not for much longer)
If I knew a unit had a grimnoire, I would try and take it out first using the Riptide's Nova IA to protect the bomb. If I center the blast on the grimnoire model and have good scatter, he will be the first one taking the S9 ordinance hits.
I know you speak on behalve of the “tau farsight promotion team” but saying stuff like: I use my coversave against heavy flamers doesn’t really count as a good argument.
Also like your other counter argument: Give a list of all the armies you have beaten.
I’am also not saying: My furioso will kill it..no problem. The list I gave are good examples of units that decide their own position on the field with deep strike or coming out of reserves. The can either decide to shoot from a particular angle or use template weapons/ignore cover or both. You simply say: “o well, I just form a big line, no problem!” but that effects your placement, moving, shooting range etc. A big line cannot be fielded in a whole piece of terrain (at least not the terrain iam using) without getting foccused fired upon. You can rely on your interceptor but you will also scatter at the time you need it the most.
You want more substance? Lets take 2 flying hive tyrants with devourers.. If theirs terrain that completly covers them the get to be deployed. If not (and tau got first turn) the can come out of reserve on a 2+ (Hive commander). Both fly 24 inch shoot 18 inch and got two biomancy powers. Theirs a good chance that one got iron arm and/or enfeeble. With enfeeble those suits only got Toughness 3. 2x12 twin linked devourer shots with presicion shot will mean about 6 hits/5 wounds that instant kill on your sensor dude. Devourers give -1 on your morale check so its also possible the run away. Even interceptor cannot take down those Hive tyrant first turn. Thats if everything goes well! The suffer from the same problem as deathstars. If sumthing goes wrong (psychic test) than it can all fall apart. Still…the could give the farsight bomb a hard time.
If I knew a unit had a grimnoire, I would try and take it out first using the Riptide's Nova IA to protect the bomb. If I center the blast on the grimnoire model and have good scatter, he will be the first one taking the S9 ordinance hits.
Why would the Nova IA allow you to force the hits on the grimoir model? It's ordnance, not barrage. You'd just hit the closest models to the riptide, as with any other weapon.
I don't believe anything in the Tau codex is a barrage weapon.
caldaus assasin with inquistor comfy chair deploy the cadlus next to either the suit with all the toys or the hqs then centre inquisitor comfy chairs orbital on the assasin a non scattering strength 10 ap1 large blast ordanance shot woul likly kill most the unit in a coteaz wing army send in the henchmen to keep the orbital from scattering and have some ss for objective play
shogun wrote: I know you speak on behalve of the “tau farsight promotion team” but saying stuff like: I use my coversave against heavy flamers doesn’t really count as a good argument.
Also like your other counter argument: Give a list of all the armies you have beaten.
I’am also not saying: My furioso will kill it..no problem. The list I gave are good examples of units that decide their own position on the field with deep strike or coming out of reserves. The can either decide to shoot from a particular angle or use template weapons/ignore cover or both. You simply say: “o well, I just form a big line, no problem!” but that effects your placement, moving, shooting range etc. A big line cannot be fielded in a whole piece of terrain (at least not the terrain iam using) without getting foccused fired upon. You can rely on your interceptor but you will also scatter at the time you need it the most.
You want more substance? Lets take 2 flying hive tyrants with devourers.. If theirs terrain that completly covers them the get to be deployed. If not (and tau got first turn) the can come out of reserve on a 2+ (Hive commander). Both fly 24 inch shoot 18 inch and got two biomancy powers. Theirs a good chance that one got iron arm and/or enfeeble. With enfeeble those suits only got Toughness 3. 2x12 twin linked devourer shots with presicion shot will mean about 6 hits/5 wounds that instant kill on your sensor dude. Devourers give -1 on your morale check so its also possible the run away. Even interceptor cannot take down those Hive tyrant first turn. Thats if everything goes well! The suffer from the same problem as deathstars. If sumthing goes wrong (psychic test) than it can all fall apart. Still…the could give the farsight bomb a hard time.
armor saves vs heavy flamer not cover (i said armor)
your adding the "no problem" part to be snide and I dont appreciate the sarcasm.
the two flyrants - based on the info you gave i agree, they can hurt! I have not faced a flying monsterous in 6th edition so i dont know how effective 6 bs 3 str 7 ap 2 shots or 8bs3twin linked str 5 shots would be in bringing them down with interceptor, but lets just say they get through.
CREDENTIALS - you do not find the fact i actually play the farsight bomb, have done so in 6 games and done massive amounts of reserch (you have been in all my threads) to be enough credentials to find my opinons to be valid, let alone more valid than others who have maybe not even seen the codex let alone played with/against it and saying how they would kill it no problem?
I also like the fact they are characters and can use precision to pick out the commander! good strategy. Are we assuming only one flyrant gets that enfeeble psychic power, is it in the same chart as iron arm? the chart has 6 right and they each get 2 powers?
so one of them gets it his 12 shots lets assume....3 6s to be saucy, all 3 wound, and he still gets 3+ armor or 2+ cover, but if you get him......that would suck.....but i still like my chances.
edit --- duh enfeeble effects the unit so both flyrants would take advantage....
so 24 shots....5-6 precision hits....5 wound....that is more likely to guarantee a kill on the commander, which would also remove stubborn, and your lowering leadership....hmm....i like this actually and it is something people often take.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
muagenreaper wrote: caldaus assasin with inquistor comfy chair deploy the cadlus next to either the suit with all the toys or the hqs then centre inquisitor comfy chairs orbital on the assasin a non scattering strength 10 ap1 large blast ordanance shot woul likly kill most the unit in a coteaz wing army send in the henchmen to keep the orbital from scattering and have some ss for objective play
do people take this list? i have never seen him used since he came out, i saw a callidus like 2 times in the last 15 years.
muagenreaper wrote: caldaus assasin with inquistor comfy chair deploy the cadlus next to either the suit with all the toys or the hqs then centre inquisitor comfy chairs orbital on the assasin a non scattering strength 10 ap1 large blast ordanance shot woul likly kill most the unit in a coteaz wing army send in the henchmen to keep the orbital from scattering and have some ss for objective play
1. The model closest to the inquisitor would die, not the one next tot he assassin
2. It's a small blast when it's S10 ap1 Lance
3. As long as your opponent is dumb, The assassins flamer could cover quite a few models. With majority LD being 7 (as long as their are more drones then bodyguard suits, otherwise it's
9, aka wounding on 5's) the template could be wounding on 3's, and if he was the closest he would suffer the first 2 wounds.
4. The assassin can't possibly kill the HQs, they always pass LOS tests, and would never get instant killed by the shot since it's S8 vs LD7 (LD9).
5. Anything other the a callidus as a very low chance of being next to the unit to drop down those OSR shots, and even if they do, the unit gets cover saves against it.
muagenreaper wrote: caldaus assasin with inquistor comfy chair deploy the cadlus next to either the suit with all the toys or the hqs then centre inquisitor comfy chairs orbital on the assasin a non scattering strength 10 ap1 large blast ordanance shot woul likly kill most the unit in a coteaz wing army send in the henchmen to keep the orbital from scattering and have some ss for objective play
1. The model closest to the inquisitor would die, not the one next tot he assassin
2. It's a small blast when it's S10 ap1 Lance
3. As long as your opponent is dumb, The assassins flamer could cover quite a few models. With majority LD being 7 (as long as their are more drones then bodyguard suits, otherwise it's
9, aka wounding on 5's) the template could be wounding on 3's, and if he was the closest he would suffer the first 2 wounds.
4. The assassin can't possibly kill the HQs, they always pass LOS tests, and would never get instant killed by the shot since it's S8 vs LD7 (LD9).
5. Anything other the a callidus as a very low chance of being next to the unit to drop down those OSR shots, and even if they do, the unit gets cover saves against it.
very good analysis coyote! i like how you broke it down!
ok well i shoulda read the relay before i post oops
however it is ordance when it is not lance which mean line of fire is drawn from the center of the pieplate as per the ordinance rule in the brb and also i was just thinking outside of the box as the op is how to beat it and chapter master orbitals though they are one us and can drift are viable against the bomb
no its not run so much though i plan on running it when i do start a grey nights army its gonna be a spanish inquisition army lol yes they will get there armor against the ordinance versions but there is an ordinance d3 version meaning the possibility to soak them in s6 woulds with no cover allowed takin from the center of the bomb instead of the sacrificial models
the ablillty is to get cadaus to where you can use her to remove the scatter from the equation for the firs turn and taking hordes of deathcult will most likely ensure that this is true for most the game4
i was simply thoery crafting a fun thing to do from time to time as the thread has pretty much turned into a flame war and i was attempting to lighten the mood a bit
oops i got 5th ed and 6th ed ordinance confuzzled oh well as you were
muagenreaper wrote: ok well i shoulda read the relay before i post oops
however it is ordance when it is not lance which mean line of fire is drawn from the center of the pieplate as per the ordinance rule in the brb and also i was just thinking outside of the box as the op is how to beat it and chapter master orbitals though they are one us and can drift are viable against the bomb
no its not run so much though i plan on running it when i do start a grey nights army its gonna be a spanish inquisition army lol yes they will get there armor against the ordinance versions but there is an ordinance d3 version meaning the possibility to soak them in s6 woulds with no cover allowed takin from the center of the bomb instead of the sacrificial models
the ablillty is to get cadaus to where you can use her to remove the scatter from the equation for the firs turn and taking hordes of deathcult will most likely ensure that this is true for most the game4
i was simply thoery crafting a fun thing to do from time to time as the thread has pretty much turned into a flame war and i was attempting to lighten the mood a bit
oops i got 5th ed and 6th ed ordinance confuzzled oh well as you were
No offense was meant, just trying to help you when you were confused on a couple rules. Similiar thing with your most recent post as well.
The rules you are looking for that witch the point of orgin as the center of the large blast template is barrage rules per pg 34 of the BRB. The ordanance rule doesn't really have any affect in this situation, as you can see on pg 51 of the BRB. And Since none of the OSR attacks have the barrage special rule per pg 598 of Codex GK (despite one of them actually being called a barrage), none of the attacks ignore cover saves, and all attacks count as coming from the firer for the purpose of coversaves.
Theorycrafting is awesome, one of my favorite past times, but you just gotta make sure your suggestions follow the urles correctly. I'm just trying to help you out with that one part. Like I said, no offense was meant.
Using the GK codex I think that one of the best things you could do if bring Mordak and his ghost kights. more to follow
muagenreaper wrote: ok well i shoulda read the relay before i post oops
however it is ordance when it is not lance which mean line of fire is drawn from the center of the pieplate as per the ordinance rule in the brb and also i was just thinking outside of the box as the op is how to beat it and chapter master orbitals though they are one us and can drift are viable against the bomb
no its not run so much though i plan on running it when i do start a grey nights army its gonna be a spanish inquisition army lol yes they will get there armor against the ordinance versions but there is an ordinance d3 version meaning the possibility to soak them in s6 woulds with no cover allowed takin from the center of the bomb instead of the sacrificial models
the ablillty is to get cadaus to where you can use her to remove the scatter from the equation for the firs turn and taking hordes of deathcult will most likely ensure that this is true for most the game4
i was simply thoery crafting a fun thing to do from time to time as the thread has pretty much turned into a flame war and i was attempting to lighten the mood a bit
oops i got 5th ed and 6th ed ordinance confuzzled oh well as you were
No offense was meant, just trying to help you when you were confused on a couple rules. Similiar thing with your most recent post as well.
The rules you are looking for that witch the point of orgin as the center of the large blast template is barrage rules per pg 34 of the BRB. The ordanance rule doesn't really have any affect in this situation, as you can see on pg 51 of the BRB. And Since none of the OSR attacks have the barrage special rule per pg 598 of Codex GK (despite one of them actually being called a barrage), none of the attacks ignore cover saves, and all attacks count as coming from the firer for the purpose of coversaves.
Theorycrafting is awesome, one of my favorite past times, but you just gotta make sure your suggestions follow the urles correctly. I'm just trying to help you out with that one part. Like I said, no offense was meant.
Using the GK codex I think that one of the best things you could do if bring Mordak and his ghost kights. more to follow
coyote i enjoy your theory crafting it is also one of my favorite pass times!
even barrage weapons dont help against the deathstar as the point of origin is the middle but even in the wide open the unit gets 4+ cover, so it would help maybe with what takes the wounds? if its strength 8 ap 3 though it is still scary as it can insta gib suits but then again with being able to space suits out with drones between them you can get 1-2 suits even with a large blast.
If I knew a unit had a grimnoire, I would try and take it out first using the Riptide's Nova IA to protect the bomb. If I center the blast on the grimnoire model and have good scatter, he will be the first one taking the S9 ordinance hits.
Why would the Nova IA allow you to force the hits on the grimoir model? It's ordnance, not barrage. You'd just hit the closest models to the riptide, as with any other weapon.
I don't believe anything in the Tau codex is a barrage weapon.
So the simple idea I had with Mordrak and his Ghost Knighs: Bring the unit, add in a Librarian with warprift, plus two separate units of interceptors with incinerators. First turn pinpoint DS to line up the warprift on suit models only if possible. Teleport your interceptor forward to line up their incinerators to slaughter as many drones as possible. With two separate incinerators, you should be able to clear a majority of the drones out, if not all of them, at that point the suits will be the only thing left, and they'll have a lot of Int tests to take. With any kind of luck, you can have the unit reduced to Farsight/Shadowsun and one suit in one salvo of shooting. (The stormbolters might even snag a guy at the very end)
Sam/Bel MSU Dualwing seems almost like a hard counter if it gets first turn.
Bikes scout forward. Termies daisy chain off of the bikes, with Belial's unit no-scattering right behind the bomb. So long as SS's face toward the riptides interceptor losses should be tolerable, and Belial's unit should be close enough that interceptor blasts will not be a good option. Bikes then move close, Knights pop a Rad Grenade on the unit, normal bikers spam bolter shots into the drones, and plasma talons and termie heavy weapons start IDing suits. Tau player then has one turn to wipe every unit in the army or face a double/triple/quadruple charge from whatever is left. Good positioning should ensure that the bomb is effectively surrounded.
Fateweaver comes out of reserve (because really, he's always in reserve, it's his home). Vector Strikes bomb. Then get's grimnoired. Then casts Psychic Shriek and Bolt of Change (he did end up giving the bomb FNP after killing several). Bomb then shoots him with everything. He of course survives.
Fateweaver comes out of reserve (because really, he's always in reserve, it's his home). Vector Strikes bomb. Then get's grimnoired. Then casts Psychic Shriek and Bolt of Change (he did end up giving the bomb FNP after killing several). Bomb then shoots him with everything. He of course survives.
Repeat.
Why didn't the tau player kill the grimoire-wielding character *before* the fateweaver came in from reserves? There's problem number 1 with that combo. Problem number 2 comes from the tau player trying to kill a 2++ re-rollable faeweaver instead of other aspects of the chaos army (such as previously stated grimoire-holder).
Fateweaver comes out of reserve (because really, he's always in reserve, it's his home). Vector Strikes bomb. Then get's grimnoired. Then casts Psychic Shriek and Bolt of Change (he did end up giving the bomb FNP after killing several). Bomb then shoots him with everything. He of course survives.
Repeat.
Why didn't the tau player kill the grimoire-wielding character *before* the fateweaver came in from reserves? There's problem number 1 with that combo. Problem number 2 comes from the tau player trying to kill a 2++ re-rollable faeweaver instead of other aspects of the chaos army (such as previously stated grimoire-holder).
Well, he panicked, I guess. Not everyone makes the right choices. I'm also fairly sure Grimoire was on a flying Demon Prince with Invisibility outside of Marker Light Range. I didn't watch the entire game, just saw bits and pieces, including the hilarity with Fateweaver. But the Demon player is super good, Tau player less so.
Ah. I see. Well your scenario (a 2++ re-rollable MC) is a tough nut for any army to crack. Hopefully i don't run into any of those anytime soon with my tau!
tetrisphreak wrote: Ah. I see. Well your scenario (a 2++ re-rollable MC) is a tough nut for any army to crack. Hopefully i don't run into any of those anytime soon with my tau!
Well, if you happen to be in a Demon Heavy meta, an allied Farseer pretty much solves that problem. (True Fateweaver can still get a 2++ without psychic powers, but outside of certain scenarios that's not that useful). I'm bringing a Demon/IG list to a tournament on Saturday, and I think Tau/Eldar is probably the worst possible match up (I think straight Tau I can steamroll, but not if I lose all my shooting), I cannot wait for RoW to get nerfed
shogun wrote: I know you speak on behalve of the “tau farsight promotion team” but saying stuff like: I use my coversave against heavy flamers doesn’t really count as a good argument.
Also like your other counter argument: Give a list of all the armies you have beaten.
I’am also not saying: My furioso will kill it..no problem. The list I gave are good examples of units that decide their own position on the field with deep strike or coming out of reserves. The can either decide to shoot from a particular angle or use template weapons/ignore cover or both. You simply say: “o well, I just form a big line, no problem!” but that effects your placement, moving, shooting range etc. A big line cannot be fielded in a whole piece of terrain (at least not the terrain iam using) without getting foccused fired upon. You can rely on your interceptor but you will also scatter at the time you need it the most.
You want more substance? Lets take 2 flying hive tyrants with devourers.. If theirs terrain that completly covers them the get to be deployed. If not (and tau got first turn) the can come out of reserve on a 2+ (Hive commander). Both fly 24 inch shoot 18 inch and got two biomancy powers. Theirs a good chance that one got iron arm and/or enfeeble. With enfeeble those suits only got Toughness 3. 2x12 twin linked devourer shots with presicion shot will mean about 6 hits/5 wounds that instant kill on your sensor dude. Devourers give -1 on your morale check so its also possible the run away. Even interceptor cannot take down those Hive tyrant first turn. Thats if everything goes well! The suffer from the same problem as deathstars. If sumthing goes wrong (psychic test) than it can all fall apart. Still…the could give the farsight bomb a hard time.
armor saves vs heavy flamer not cover (i said armor)
your adding the "no problem" part to be snide and I dont appreciate the sarcasm.
the two flyrants - based on the info you gave i agree, they can hurt! I have not faced a flying monsterous in 6th edition so i dont know how effective 6 bs 3 str 7 ap 2 shots or 8bs3twin linked str 5 shots would be in bringing them down with interceptor, but lets just say they get through.
CREDENTIALS - you do not find the fact i actually play the farsight bomb, have done so in 6 games and done massive amounts of reserch (you have been in all my threads) to be enough credentials to find my opinons to be valid, let alone more valid than others who have maybe not even seen the codex let alone played with/against it and saying how they would kill it no problem?
I also like the fact they are characters and can use precision to pick out the commander! good strategy. Are we assuming only one flyrant gets that enfeeble psychic power, is it in the same chart as iron arm? the chart has 6 right and they each get 2 powers?
so one of them gets it his 12 shots lets assume....3 6s to be saucy, all 3 wound, and he still gets 3+ armor or 2+ cover, but if you get him......that would suck.....but i still like my chances.
edit --- duh enfeeble effects the unit so both flyrants would take advantage....
so 24 shots....5-6 precision hits....5 wound....that is more likely to guarantee a kill on the commander, which would also remove stubborn, and your lowering leadership....hmm....i like this actually and it is something people often take.
Its hard to get enfeeble on the bomb because its sumthing you have to do at the beginning of movement phase and that means the Hive tyrant already needs to be within 24 inch. But if Tyranids get first turn and those Hive tyrants got deployed behind cover (just in case tau seize) than its most likely that one of them got Iron arm and both get 'feel no pain' from the 2 tervigons. THEN the fly of and still shoot with all those devourers killing shadowsun most likely with precision strikes. IF the first Hive tyrants gets to do this then the next Hive tyrant shoots his precision shots at the sensor guy. Its also possible to fly(swooping) the tyrants behind 25% cover and claim at least a 5+ coversave because you still have 'true line of sight' even when shooting at a flying monstrous creature . This could also be improved with night fighting.
So you can have: 1 flying Hive tyrant with toughness 8 and feel no pain and another with feel no pain and possible 5+ coversave for both.
If theirs good "blocking line of sight" terrain then the tyranid player should do this the second turn in combination with deepstriking trygons.
Tyranid list:
Flying Hive with devourers and hive commander (+1 reserve)
Flying Hive with devourers
Tervigon with 3 powers and toxin sacs
Tervigon with 3 powers and toxin sacs
10 termagaunts
10 termagaunts
doom of malan'tai in pod
trygon
trygon
about 1500 points.
You dont see a lot of tyranid armies because at 1700+ points the cannot take all the enemy shooting. at 1500 points its a different matter...
I think this will kill the Farsight bomb for sure..
The whole bomb works so well simply because there arent any really weak links in the unit.
Usually you will have a large deathstar with basic models in it.
The farsight/sun bomb works simpy because every model has a use.
Removing any part of it at range is near on impossible when playing against a smart opponant.
The best counter for it is other tau.
You need a way to remove cover, then pour a high volume of shots into the unit.
Other armies may have some quirks, but these are far from reliable.
Its quick, hits hard against any unit in the game and it can soak up a ton of fire power.
Thats what makes it a good unit.
Jackal wrote: The whole bomb works so well simply because there arent any really weak links in the unit.
Usually you will have a large deathstar with basic models in it.
The farsight/sun bomb works simpy because every model has a use.
Removing any part of it at range is near on impossible when playing against a smart opponant.
The best counter for it is other tau.
You need a way to remove cover, then pour a high volume of shots into the unit.
Other armies may have some quirks, but these are far from reliable.
Its quick, hits hard against any unit in the game and it can soak up a ton of fire power.
Thats what makes it a good unit.
Yes, thats true apart from a few things:
Every unit has his parts but if that sensor guy gets killed then it starts to crumble. If you want them to be completely in cover + stealth+ shrouded (2+ coversave) its hard to do this while keeping them 2 inch apart to avoid large blasts. One S8 ap3 barrage plate could take out that sensor guy.
rule question: If shadowsun or farsight didn't have anybody within 3 inch anymore can the still 'look out sire'? Dunno,
An other weakness: Their not fearless. Morale checks, pinning checks plus Telepathy powers can really screw them up. This will happen at the most inconvenient time.
The could also struggle against high armor vehicles. Sum imperial guard vehicles behind a defence line + camo. Even with tank hunter its hard to take down armour 13+ outside 9 inch fusion blaster range.
Yes its quick but only after shooting. If you want to shoot rapid fire plasma (without deep striking) next turn then you need to move within 21 inch of the enemies range.
Also would like to see it in a 1700+ tournament. It would do very well but I think it would lose that one game that it didnt work out as planned and then it hurts hard in scores.
So I was thinking about this because it's actually pretty interesting as the unit/army has a lot going for it and i wondered if there was a way without hiding scoring troops and making the Tau play for tabling you. Theorius, you mention having Interceptor on your Riptides, do they also have skyfire?
I was just thinking because 6 shots hitting on 6's with S7 from the Ion Cannons is likely to bounce right off a set of Hellturkeys. 3 of those boys zipping around with wounding on 2 ignoring all your armour but that one Iridium guy torrent flamers is gonna cut the Deathstar down to size fast.
Even with skyfire the Riptides should get .36ish hull points each per volley while the Turkeys, even if we assume three models hit each due to amazing spacing and alternating suits will kill 3 drones and 2 suits each volley. Now you might be able to scrape up another hull point from lucky fire from the Deathstar itself but it's still a losing battle.
Not to mention that's less than 600pts of the CSM force and something you could see in a TAC list.
Other stuff might be able to kill them but not stuff you'd see without tailoring, massed Psi-Shriek Zoanthrope pods, Dirge Raiders full of berzerkers. Of course the unit is also vulnerable to some of the unit debuffs like misfortune, doom, enfeeble but keeping the caster alive long enough to leverage them becomes the trick.
Jackal wrote: The whole bomb works so well simply because there arent any really weak links in the unit.
Usually you will have a large deathstar with basic models in it.
The farsight/sun bomb works simpy because every model has a use.
Removing any part of it at range is near on impossible when playing against a smart opponant.
The best counter for it is other tau.
You need a way to remove cover, then pour a high volume of shots into the unit.
Other armies may have some quirks, but these are far from reliable.
Its quick, hits hard against any unit in the game and it can soak up a ton of fire power.
Thats what makes it a good unit.
I'm starting to think Demons are the counter, actually. Maybe it's just because I've been messing around with a Demon list, but the codex seems to have a lot of answers to the bomb. Flying circus can vector Strike and then Psychic Shriek/Smite/Bolt of Change/etc So many ways to charge a temporarily durable unit in (Hounds under grimoire would be the best, imo). Enough mobility to corner the bomb and make it hurt.
I play mainly IG now but have a large selection of Orks to add in as needed.
Next time out I plan to try my new Psyker battle squad starting in the Bastion(will need to head to the roof to do the demoralizing speal of course),then go for pinning with my Basalisk/Gryphon ordinance battery along with some mortars maybe even some snipers?
Also.Zogwart is askin...which one does he squig first?
Minijack wrote: I play mainly IG now but have a large selection of Orks to add in as needed.
Next time out I plan to try my new Psyker battle squad starting in the Bastion(will need to head to the roof to do the demoralizing speal of course),then go for pinning with my Basalisk/Gryphon ordinance battery along with some mortars maybe even some snipers?
Also.Zogwart is askin...which one does he squig first?
Don't know whether putting your killy unit in a bastion is a good idea when you're going to have probably 3 suits dropping armed with 2 Fusion Blasters each which re-roll misses. Even if they don't take that bastion out your Psykers are probably going to get pummeled by the results of the building damage chart. Since Fusion Blasters are AP1 it's impossible for them to roll less than a 3 on the building damage chart, so there's only 1 result they could roll where you aren't taking nD6 S6 hits. What's the Armour/Invulnerable save on Psykers?
anonymou5 wrote: The whole bomb works so well simply because there arent any really weak links in the unit.
Usually you will have a large deathstar with basic models in it.
The farsight/sun bomb works simpy because every model has a use.
Removing any part of it at range is near on impossible when playing against a smart opponant.
The best counter for it is other tau.
You need a way to remove cover, then pour a high volume of shots into the unit.
Other armies may have some quirks, but these are far from reliable.
Its quick, hits hard against any unit in the game and it can soak up a ton of fire power.
Thats what makes it a good unit.
I'm starting to think Demons are the counter, actually. Maybe it's just because I've been messing around with a Demon list, but the codex seems to have a lot of answers to the bomb. Flying circus can vector Strike and then Psychic Shriek/Smite/Bolt of Change/etc So many ways to charge a temporarily durable unit in (Hounds under grimoire would be the best, imo). Enough mobility to corner the bomb and make it hurt.
gunline/markerlight dependent tau are not actually that scary (based on one game so far). I faced one this weekend that had 2x4pathfinders, 1x skyray, 1x sniper unit....I went first killed ALL of them in turn 1 and he had no other options to marker me to remove cover and increase his bs. It effectively neutered his entire army.
While the bomb does not rely on markers, and began to eat his entire army. Turn 2 i dropped a riptide and a 9man fire warrior unit + ethereal behind aegis and 2 pirahanas.
IF HE HAD GONE FIRST....Dunno how dangerous it would be for that first turn alpha strike, his remove cover + Ballistic Skill bonus on two riptides might have been nasty.
A tau list i saw in a video battle report was preatty scary actually. The guy made two mini stars. One unit of 3 crisis suits (one commander style) and 1 REAL commander and ANOTHER unit of 3 crisis suits with a farseer on jetbike to give them prescience so they rerolled hits as well and he had rolled misfortune so the enemy rerolled saves, was nice.
If deamons became prevalent in my area or at tournies i would have to resign myself to adding either a farseer on jetbike or a sm librarian with nullzone to counter daemons. Right now I have not had to play against any though, but their are options out their to make the list more resilent to psychic tom foolerie.
anonymou5 wrote: The whole bomb works so well simply because there arent any really weak links in the unit.
Usually you will have a large deathstar with basic models in it.
The farsight/sun bomb works simpy because every model has a use.
Removing any part of it at range is near on impossible when playing against a smart opponant.
The best counter for it is other tau.
You need a way to remove cover, then pour a high volume of shots into the unit.
Other armies may have some quirks, but these are far from reliable.
Its quick, hits hard against any unit in the game and it can soak up a ton of fire power.
Thats what makes it a good unit.
I'm starting to think Demons are the counter, actually. Maybe it's just because I've been messing around with a Demon list, but the codex seems to have a lot of answers to the bomb. Flying circus can vector Strike and then Psychic Shriek/Smite/Bolt of Change/etc So many ways to charge a temporarily durable unit in (Hounds under grimoire would be the best, imo). Enough mobility to corner the bomb and make it hurt.
gunline/markerlight dependent tau are not actually that scary (based on one game so far). I faced one this weekend that had 2x4pathfinders, 1x skyray, 1x sniper unit....I went first killed ALL of them in turn 1 and he had no other options to marker me to remove cover and increase his bs. It effectively neutered his entire army.
While the bomb does not rely on markers, and began to eat his entire army. Turn 2 i dropped a riptide and a 9man fire warrior unit + ethereal behind aegis and 2 pirahanas.
IF HE HAD GONE FIRST....Dunno how dangerous it would be for that first turn alpha strike, his remove cover + Ballistic Skill bonus on two riptides might have been nasty.
A tau list i saw in a video battle report was preatty scary actually. The guy made two mini stars. One unit of 3 crisis suits (one commander style) and 1 REAL commander and ANOTHER unit of 3 crisis suits with a farseer on jetbike to give them prescience so they rerolled hits as well and he had rolled misfortune so the enemy rerolled saves, was nice.
If deamons became prevalent in my area or at tournies i would have to resign myself to adding either a farseer on jetbike or a sm librarian with nullzone to counter daemons. Right now I have not had to play against any though, but their are options out their to make the list more resilent to psychic tom foolerie.
I just had to think about this..:
Theorius wrote: CREDENTIALS - you do not find the fact i actually play the farsight bomb, have done so in 6 games and done massive amounts of reserch (you have been in all my threads) to be enough credentials to find my opinons to be valid, let alone more valid than others who have maybe not even seen the codex let alone played with/against it and saying how they would kill it no problem?
Its great that you played a game against a tau player having first turn and shooting it to pieces...Now give him first turn for a change! Let him remove your cover save and hit your unit with two ion accelerators large blasts. I still think you can take him... but this Tau list sucks anyway.
You should play against 3 riptides with a commander + markerlight drones. Commander + drones deploy behind cover and next turn the hit your unit with markerlights. Then those riptides go nuts..!
I did say IF HE HAD GONE FIRST...in caps, he might have done a number on me with the ion cannons....
I didnt even tell you his list, lol, just the marker light stuff i dropped and his 2 riptides. I think (and so does my oppoent) that 3 riptides is cheesy, he had a full company of broadsides as well. Having said that if i make a 2000 pt list I would likely add a third....
So IG AV13 is the answer (with camo!)?
Sorry shogun, but keep in mind AV13 means nothing when theres usually 6 FB's with re-rolls and tank hunter that can land next to you.
Even if you take 3, it still wont take long to work through them.
Also, dont some of the large cannons have a min range?
Shoot one, blow it up, jump towards the next.
Also, they can move into distance, but dont forget they can jump back afterwards, which is why JSJ is such a great rule.
It seems pretty small, until you look at what impact it can have on games.
Jackal wrote: So IG AV13 is the answer (with camo!)?
Sorry shogun, but keep in mind AV13 means nothing when theres usually 6 FB's with re-rolls and tank hunter that can land next to you.
Even if you take 3, it still wont take long to work through them.
Also, dont some of the large cannons have a min range?
Shoot one, blow it up, jump towards the next.
Also, they can move into distance, but dont forget they can jump back afterwards, which is why JSJ is such a great rule.
It seems pretty small, until you look at what impact it can have on games.
Its not THE answer but its still a weakness that the bomb cannot shoot down armour 13/14 from afar. You need that 9 inch fusion and if you deepstrike then the enemy could bubblewrap the vehicles. If you do deepstrike with the farsight warlord trait then your not using the shadowsun warlordtrait so your not that fast..
plus:
Its still possible for a barrage weapon to arrive from reserves and shoot their weapon.
I also think that every IG army should have the "officer of the fleet". If the bomb will only arrive with a 4+ the will possibly be to late to the party.
Jackal wrote: So IG AV13 is the answer (with camo!)?
Sorry shogun, but keep in mind AV13 means nothing when theres usually 6 FB's with re-rolls and tank hunter that can land next to you.
Even if you take 3, it still wont take long to work through them.
Also, dont some of the large cannons have a min range?
Shoot one, blow it up, jump towards the next.
Also, they can move into distance, but dont forget they can jump back afterwards, which is why JSJ is such a great rule.
It seems pretty small, until you look at what impact it can have on games.
Its not THE answer but its still a weakness that the bomb cannot shoot down armour 13/14 from afar. You need that 9 inch fusion and if you deepstrike then the enemy could bubblewrap the vehicles. If you do deepstrike with the farsight warlord trait then your not using the shadowsun warlordtrait so your not that fast..
plus:
Its still possible for a barrage weapon to arrive from reserves and shoot their weapon.
I also think that every IG army should have the "officer of the fleet". If the bomb will only arrive with a 4+ the will possibly be to late to the party.
barrage str 8 ap 3 hits 3 suits and 3 drones (lets say) and their is a greater than 50% chance you hit one of the two characters or the iradium suit with his 2+ armor save, but LETS SAY you beat the odds and hit 3 normal suits and 3 drones. You wound on 2+ so 5 wounds (50% chance it was failed on a drone but lets say you wounded em all) they get a 4+ cover save so you only do 3 insta gib wounds.
that is an almost impossible scenario when you take into account scatter, suit drone suit drone coherency, NOT hitting the characters who can LOS to the iradium who WILL be closest to both of them (if your smart), or hitting the iradium himself.
THEY ARE DEFINETLY A THREAT but they are by no means a hard counter in my eyes, but i have yet to face any IG army with massive amounts of artillery with a sm librarian giving them precience (3+ earthshaker carriages would be scary for sure)
So I used the bomb for the first time last night, I was getting destroyed by some bad rolls early on against his daemon prince and some bad estimation on helldrake range.
The bomb even failed to come in turn 2 with comm rerolls.
That was probably for the best, my opponent made a bad mistake.
Turn 3 the squad came down, killed Ahriman 10 1k sons, 2 oblits and a 10man cultists squad. I was kind of amazing. All that dead, and most of it even had inv saves.
Turn 4 it killed another cultist squad, half a 1k sons squad and a helldrake.
Turn 5 it finished the 1k Sons, two oblits another cultist squad.
Kind of silly that I only lost 9 gun drones and one suit with plasma rifles.
Overall I thought I had lost the game easily, and this squad single handly won. Might try it again, but feel it has too many rock/paper/scissor match-ups.
Coyote81 wrote: So I used the bomb for the first time last night, I was getting destroyed by some bad rolls early on against his daemon prince and some bad estimation on helldrake range.
The bomb even failed to come in turn 2 with comm rerolls.
That was probably for the best, my opponent made a bad mistake.
Turn 3 the squad came down, killed Ahriman 10 1k sons, 2 oblits and a 10man cultists squad. I was kind of amazing. All that dead, and most of it even had inv saves.
Turn 4 it killed another cultist squad, half a 1k sons squad and a helldrake.
Turn 5 it finished the 1k Sons, two oblits another cultist squad.
Kind of silly that I only lost 9 gun drones and one suit with plasma rifles.
Overall I thought I had lost the game easily, and this squad single handly won. Might try it again, but feel it has too many rock/paper/scissor match-ups.
what in the world is a rock paper scissor match up? Ive played 7 games now and am researching lists/codexs and cannot find anything dangerous save daemons with the 2++ rerollable invul unit, but this is bad for anyone i think.....
I have yet to face a master blaster noise marine list someone propsed but i will do it within the week.....regardless it think it is rare as I checked the army lists for the last 5 big cons and did not see any in the top 10....
I feel lists that include flying Daemon Princes, and multiple helldrakes may end up being too much for the bomb to handle, mostly due to the fact that I can see deploying the bomb on the table when two flyers that could come in a wipe them out are waiting in reserve. Having to use a lot of my anti-flyer to stop the daemon prince from wrecking my lines, I can see a double daemon prince list giving me some trouble.
i do not want to add eldar to my army collections for that exact reason - runes of warding will most certainly get nerfed, and the army as a whole will see sweeping changes that will make it play differently in some areas. I'd hate to invest in money/points that i find unusable in 2 weeks. Plus the additional investment of yet another codex isn't in my budget currently either.
Despite all the yelling flowing in this thread I shall post an attempt at reasoned discussion.
How does the bomb handle an azrael guardblob?
Can it actually apply the wounds to kill them or whatever is hiding behind them before all that massed S3 kills it even through the T4 and 2+ cover? Especially if there's a primaris in there throwing some form of rerolls or similar?
Opinions from people who are smart enough to think before posting (mathhammer will substitute for that) or be polite only, please.
Nobody_Holme wrote: Despite all the yelling flowing in this thread I shall post an attempt at reasoned discussion.
How does the bomb handle an azrael guardblob?
Can it actually apply the wounds to kill them or whatever is hiding behind them before all that massed S3 kills it even through the T4 and 2+ cover? Especially if there's a primaris in there throwing some form of rerolls or similar?
Opinions from people who are smart enough to think before posting (mathhammer will substitute for that) or be polite only, please.
Assuming 50 guardsmen under FRFSRF and prescience, all within rapid fire range (very unlikely) you net an average 6.25 unsaved wounds in a round of shooting if the bomb is in cover. The bomb, in exchange, nets 17.4 guardsmen killed if within 12". That is with the 4+ inv. save. I wouldn't say it's that valid as a counter. If you bring several blobs, maybe.
Coyote81 wrote: I feel lists that include flying Daemon Princes, and multiple helldrakes may end up being too much for the bomb to handle, mostly due to the fact that I can see deploying the bomb on the table when two flyers that could come in a wipe them out are waiting in reserve. Having to use a lot of my anti-flyer to stop the daemon prince from wrecking my lines, I can see a double daemon prince list giving me some trouble.
not to worried personally on fliers, at 1500 i have two good interceptors when they fly in, at greater than 1500 i would have 4. Not saying they arent dangerous but they are no where near a rock to tau scissors they are just dangerous but can be dealt with massive fire, and the star can hit and run away from the princes if they actually survive to get into combat.
also helldrakes dont insta gib and spreading out drone suit drone keeps the dmg down on the 8" template it honestly cant hit much.
Nobody_Holme wrote: Despite all the yelling flowing in this thread I shall post an attempt at reasoned discussion.
How does the bomb handle an azrael guardblob?
Can it actually apply the wounds to kill them or whatever is hiding behind them before all that massed S3 kills it even through the T4 and 2+ cover? Especially if there's a primaris in there throwing some form of rerolls or similar?
Opinions from people who are smart enough to think before posting (mathhammer will substitute for that) or be polite only, please.
Assuming 50 guardsmen under FRFSRF and prescience, all within rapid fire range (very unlikely) you net an average 6.25 unsaved wounds in a round of shooting if the bomb is in cover. The bomb, in exchange, nets 17.4 guardsmen killed if within 12". That is with the 4+ inv. save. I wouldn't say it's that valid as a counter. If you bring several blobs, maybe.
50 guard blobs would not get within shooting range let alone rapid fire range in most cases without being whittled down first. If 50 guardsmen were in rapid fire range, the nueral jammer would cause 16-17 gets hot wounds to them by itself. Also blobs are great targets to assault to ide fro imperial shooting then hit and run away.
Nobody_Holme wrote: Despite all the yelling flowing in this thread I shall post an attempt at reasoned discussion.
How does the bomb handle an azrael guardblob?
Can it actually apply the wounds to kill them or whatever is hiding behind them before all that massed S3 kills it even through the T4 and 2+ cover? Especially if there's a primaris in there throwing some form of rerolls or similar?
Opinions from people who are smart enough to think before posting (mathhammer will substitute for that) or be polite only, please.
If you're only here for a reasoned discussion than we don't need your judgement. There's not a lot of "yelling" in this thread as far as I can see. And there's nothing wrong about a heated discussion but we can do without this kind of judgmental remarks. Are you saying that we didn't make an attempt for a reasoned discussion? Well, thanks....
Nobody_Holme wrote: Despite all the yelling flowing in this thread I shall post an attempt at reasoned discussion.
How does the bomb handle an azrael guardblob?
Can it actually apply the wounds to kill them or whatever is hiding behind them before all that massed S3 kills it even through the T4 and 2+ cover? Especially if there's a primaris in there throwing some form of rerolls or similar?
Opinions from people who are smart enough to think before posting (mathhammer will substitute for that) or be polite only, please.
Assuming 50 guardsmen under FRFSRF and prescience, all within rapid fire range (very unlikely) you net an average 6.25 unsaved wounds in a round of shooting if the bomb is in cover. The bomb, in exchange, nets 17.4 guardsmen killed if within 12". That is with the 4+ inv. save. I wouldn't say it's that valid as a counter. If you bring several blobs, maybe.
50 guard blobs would not get within shooting range let alone rapid fire range in most cases without being whittled down first. If 50 guardsmen were in rapid fire range, the nueral jammer would cause 16-17 gets hot wounds to them by itself. Also blobs are great targets to assault to ide fro imperial shooting then hit and run away.
Absolutely, I don't assume that's ever going to happen in the game. I simply wanted to show that even under perfect circumstances the blob doesn't make much of an impact.
Coyote81 wrote: So I used the bomb for the first time last night, I was getting destroyed by some bad rolls early on against his daemon prince and some bad estimation on helldrake range.
The bomb even failed to come in turn 2 with comm rerolls.
That was probably for the best, my opponent made a bad mistake.
Turn 3 the squad came down, killed Ahriman 10 1k sons, 2 oblits and a 10man cultists squad. I was kind of amazing. All that dead, and most of it even had inv saves.
Turn 4 it killed another cultist squad, half a 1k sons squad and a helldrake.
Turn 5 it finished the 1k Sons, two oblits another cultist squad.
Kind of silly that I only lost 9 gun drones and one suit with plasma rifles.
Overall I thought I had lost the game easily, and this squad single handly won. Might try it again, but feel it has too many rock/paper/scissor match-ups.
certainly beating terrible Ahriman 1ksons lists validates the Farsight Deathstar?
For those not following the rumor threads, it appears that NewDar may be a hard counter. They have a primaris power that strips shrouding (Confirmed), a viable focused witchfire to pop the important suit, and a nice (very tall) new way to spam S6 AP2 shots. As soon as points values are available and rules are confirmed, the Farsight bomb is likely to be a dead list.
Tuagh wrote: For those not following the rumor threads, it appears that NewDar may be a hard counter. They have a primaris power that strips shrouding (Confirmed), a viable focused witchfire to pop the important suit, and a nice (very tall) new way to spam S6 AP2 shots. As soon as points values are available and rules are confirmed, the Farsight bomb is likely to be a dead list.
I am following ALL rumor threads as eldars are my first love and i have a converted exodite biker army!! so excited!!!
Based on that, I highly doubt it will be dead, here is why.
reason 1 - Psychic powers have RANGE LIMITS - It only has 18 range, so it will be very hard to get it to land on the deathstar because of reason number 2!!!!! (18" confirmed on 3++ from the battle in the white dwarf))
reason 2 - Psychic powers are before movement (limits your abiltiy to get within range safely since you need to move within)
Example - Warlorck seer group on jetbikes they will need to turboboost turn 1 and get within lets say 6" of the deathstar. Survive a turn of shooting then next turn strip the stealth/shroud.-- Fortune is not a guarantee anymore either, but maybe farseers have an ability to pick? the farseer primaris is guide!!
Warlocks on foot I think will not be able to do it at all.....
Furthemore, if they are just that bad ass guess what my ally choice will be? YEP my very own farseer on jetbike who can keep up with them, will give me 4+ deny the witch, runes of warding (whatever they do now) and i will get my own psychic powers...
FINALLY, the conceal/reveal is the primaris power for warlocks and we dont even know what other toys they get so this is all hard core theory crafting based on what ifs.
Coyote81 wrote: So I used the bomb for the first time last night, I was getting destroyed by some bad rolls early on against his daemon prince and some bad estimation on helldrake range.
The bomb even failed to come in turn 2 with comm rerolls.
That was probably for the best, my opponent made a bad mistake.
Turn 3 the squad came down, killed Ahriman 10 1k sons, 2 oblits and a 10man cultists squad. I was kind of amazing. All that dead, and most of it even had inv saves.
Turn 4 it killed another cultist squad, half a 1k sons squad and a helldrake.
Turn 5 it finished the 1k Sons, two oblits another cultist squad.
Kind of silly that I only lost 9 gun drones and one suit with plasma rifles.
Overall I thought I had lost the game easily, and this squad single handly won. Might try it again, but feel it has too many rock/paper/scissor match-ups.
certainly beating terrible Ahriman 1ksons lists validates the Farsight Deathstar?
I was just attempting to add some more experiences to the pile, not validate the awesomeness of the farsightbomb. Just something different, since this list I fought had helldrakes (Hard counter to bomb if used right), Daemon Prince (Another possible counter depending on the build) and several units with good inv saves. Representing a target that is harder to shoot then most due to the fact that we ignore cover and have low ap weapon in droves. I think it was a valid comment to add experiences and perhaps answer some people concerns of what if I run into these units.....
Glad you could comment and add a quality post to this discussion. Thank You.
reason 1 - Psychic powers have RANGE LIMITS - It only has 18 range, so it will be very hard to get it to land on the deathstar because of reason number 2!!!!! (18" confirmed on 3++ from the battle in the white dwarf))
reason 2 - Psychic powers are before movement (limits your abiltiy to get within range safely since you need to move within)
Reasonable assumptions: Your bomb has a large footprint. Eldar players likely have multiple warlocks.
Are you saying that you think you can keep a footprint that large isolated >18" from 3-4 separate points on the field while simultaneously remaining outside the charge distance of any viable melee threats and without clumping to the point of being template bait or drifting out of cover (and thus out of that sweet 2+ save)?
At this point it seems that your only remaining arguments are "My list is awesome!" or "But I can counter that by changing my list!", neither of which supports your case well.
reason 1 - Psychic powers have RANGE LIMITS - It only has 18 range, so it will be very hard to get it to land on the deathstar because of reason number 2!!!!! (18" confirmed on 3++ from the battle in the white dwarf))
reason 2 - Psychic powers are before movement (limits your abiltiy to get within range safely since you need to move within)
Reasonable assumptions: Your bomb has a large footprint. Eldar players likely have multiple warlocks.
Are you saying that you think you can keep a footprint that large isolated >18" from 3-4 separate points on the field while simultaneously remaining outside the charge distance of any viable melee threats and without clumping to the point of being template bait or drifting out of cover (and thus out of that sweet 2+ save)?
At this point it seems that your only remaining arguments are "My list is awesome!" or "But I can counter that by changing my list!", neither of which supports your case well.
I dont know if i should respond to you as you seem to be on the verge of making this ugly but i will go for it!!
I guess i I am saying with my big footprint I can fight off threats from 3 separate fields while simultaneously remaining outside the charge distance of viable melee threats without clumping to the point of being template bait.....FOR AT LEAST 2 TURNS!!!! ((i dont count on 2+ save btw, never even had it, but i want a 4+ save for the ap3+ weapons))
and my only remaining arguments have never been my list is awesome....in fact that seems to be most everyone elses arguments (including yours) on how they can kill it. I am providing analytical/real world experience on how the bomb operates and how proposed counters work or dont work based on my experience and opinion and nothing more.
Trust me, I am not hear saying all of you are losers and you cant win!!! just give up go tau!!! I want to find weaknesses just as much as the next person.
It is a threat a dangerous one, and you dont ignore the hungry lion with super accurate plasma guns who can see you hiding in the bushes dude!!!
Depends on how the unit is positioned. If they aren't spread out and are closer to the chaos deployment edge (or near the center of the table), then each AP3 template can potentially hit 6-8 Tau models. Then you've also got D3+1 models hit from vector-strike by each heldrake. That can easily average out to 20+ AP3 wounds (which are all auto-hits).
Of course, that is not factoring in Intercepting riptides with heavy burst cannons.
Make them roll lots, and lots, and lots of saves and get them in assault with things that can penetrate those saves through sheer numbers, special rules, or power weapons. I keep a block of bonesword tyrant guard to bumrush farsight bombs who thought they were safe after nuking the trygons.
@Theorius: I got a nice Battle report for you. Its based upon your 1500 point armylist and my tyranid monster list (I revered to earlier):
Spoiler:
Setup: Hammer and anvil
Mission: The scouring
Nightfight: first turn (tyranid warlord trait and also normal nightfight first turn)
Tau’s side got objective: 3 + 1 + 3 and tyranid got the other :2+4+2 (small red counters)
Tiranid’s got the following psychic powers:
Hive tyrant: endurance
Hive tyrant: nothing of use
Tervigon: Iron arm + endurance
Tervigon: Iron arm + nothing of use
Tau deploys first:
farsightbomb set’s up in cover and riptides take the midfield. FarsightBomb doesnt fear any templates first turn (seize) so the all get compfy.
Tiranid deploys all monsterous creatures outside 42 inch so tau cannot see it when its dark even if the move first. one gaunt unit outflanks (Hive commander).
TAU FIRST TURN
Tau Farsight bomb moves forward out of cover. Riptides also moves forward but not to close because the want to stay outside devourers range. The want to keep their distance and wait for those hive tyrants to attack and reserves to come in.
TYRANID FIRST TURN
One Hive tyrant gives itself feel no pain
One tervigon gives the other feel no pain
Other tervigon gives itself Iron Arm (+2 toughness)
Hive tyrants fly 24 inch and shoot at Farsight bomb. Both Hive tyrants together kill 8 drones each because thats all the can reach. Farsight bomb makes morale test.
TAU SECOND TURN
2 kroot units come out of reserve, one at each side. The run towards the objectives in the back of the tau’s deployment zone.
Riptide 1: uses nova for extra shots and gives Hive tyrant 1-3 wounds. Tyrant stays in the air. Riptide 2: overheats (so gets a wound) and shoots at Hive Tyrant 2 but no wounds and Hive Tyrant still stays in the air.
Farsight bomb moved forward and decide to use:
2 drones+ 2 plasma rapid fire Suits+ Farsight + one fusion shot from shadowsun towards the badly wounded Hive tyrant and the rest towards the healty Hive Tyrant.
Wounded Hive Tyrant drops dead but Healthy Hive Tyrant only gets one dissapointing wound and still keeps flying.
Bomb + riptides move backward in the assault phase.
TYRANID SECOND TURN
Both Trygons + 10 guants come out of reserve but the Doom doesn’t.
Trygon 1 gets feel no pain from Tervigon
Trygon 2 gets feel no pain from Hive tyrant
Tervigon 2 gives itself Iron Arm (+2)
Riptides intercept and put 4 wounds on a trygon.
Hive tyrant flies to the side of the farsightbomb. 10 outflanking guants +Trygons shoot down the two remaining drones and Hive tyrant only kills one plasma suit.
TAU THIRD TURN
Last kroot come out of reserve and joins the other unit at the right objective
Riptide one overheats and the other gets double shots.
Kroot unit shoots at Hive Tyrant to bring it down but no 6’s.
Riptide 1 shoots at Hive Tyrant and does 2 wounds (with jinx-save) Hive tyrant keeps on flying.
Riptide 2 shoots at hive tyrant and does nothing. Hive Tyrant keeps on flying!
Farsightbomb shoots at :
Flying Hive: 2 missle dudes and kill’s it.
Wounded Trygon: Shadowsun and farsight and kill’s it.
Healthy Trygon: the rest and he gets 4 wounds.
Farsightbomb gets 8 inch and thats not enough to evade the trygon so the spread out to avoid the doom-blast next turn.
TYRANID THIRD TURN
Doom comes out of reserve. Doom fears Interceptor so he deploy’s near the kroot units and out line of sight behind a tree.
Wounded trygon gets ‘endurance’ from tervigon. Trygon moves toward riptide because I fear that the Farsightbomb will kill it during overwatch. The I remembered that ‘endurance” Also gives “it will not die”. At the end of the movement phase the trygon heals one wound and at that point I decide that I going to assault the Farsight bomb.
Doom drains 5 kroot warriors and kills another 2 with his blast from the other unit. the kroot unit of 5 runs of the table.
Trygon charges and get only hit by 3 missle pod hits. The only give him one wound. Trygon charges closest plasma suit and I forgot that farsight got Initiative 5! So he moves toward the trygon and hits it but doesn’t wound it. Trygon uses smash to kill two suits. Other suits join dont wound the trygon at all. Trygon wins with 4+ wounds and the Bomb fails it morale check and runs away but gets sweeped by the trygon.
TAU FORTH TURN
Both riptides overheat. One riptide moves toward the doom and shoots his big template in an attempt to instant kill it. Its the only chanche to make sure those kroot’s survive and get the objective. The template scatters and didnt hurt the doom.
The other Riptide shoots at the Trygon and gives it a dissapointing one wound.
Kroot also shoot but didnt hurt him.
TYRANID FORTH TURN
Trygon assaults the Riptide and gets one wound with overwatch. The trygon then kills the riptide!
Doom drains the remaining 6 kroots.
At this point I got 2 fearless Tervigons with iron arm sitting on a 4 point objective with 4 units of gaunts sitting on the other objectives. kroot unit only go a 3points objective. So its pretty much game over.
By the way: I made a mistake because I thought that those Nova-double shots also works for your Ion excellerator. I realised this halfway the battle.
This shows a few things:
* If you haven't got enough scoring units and you're not capable to destroy your enemy completely then you could fail the mission.
* If you decide the way you want to divide your shots then theirs a good chance that you will overkill sum units or fail to kill others. Sum treats you need to take down (like a fast trygon) and then you use overkill and those shots are lost.
(edit: Tau turn 3: I shot with the riptides but the already uses interceptor. mistake... )
Coyote81 wrote: Even a few tyrant guard might go down tot he overwatch this unit can put out. You really need to throw a bait unit at it first.
Given my propensity for either model spam or MTO lists for my Tyranids I should have no trouble finding some bait in my massive hordes of models in high point double FOC games. Sacrificial genestealers are just scary enough for him to try shooting them up first so that the bonesword guard can get into assault and start handing out instant death. Meanwhile, as Farsight bomb is the single costliest death star that I know of, even with my large numbers of MCs I'll probably have more models than he does to take the objectives and win the game while his suits are busily slapping at guards for the rest of the game.
shogun wrote: @Theorius: I got a nice Battle report for you. Its based upon your 1500 point armylist and my tyranid monster list (I revered to earlier):
Nice report dude! couple of mistakes but not alot.
However, this definetly shows tyranids are a danger to the bomb due to high str volume of fire and every damn one of them is dangerous in assault so it is harder to run. They also have alot of good resilient deep strikers that can weather the intercept and come out fighting.
Wrong tau stuff:
1 - Every suit and the riptides have blacksun filters, turn 1 they should have killed some things before your psychic choir got into action which could have drastically changed your game.
2 - I also do not see how 24 twin linked devourer shots can kill 8 drones if they were in cover for a 2+ save or were the drones outside of it? ((assuming outside))
3 - When the trygon assaulted was the command suit still alive? he would have given either monster hunter to kill the big dude(or more likely) stubborn so they would have always taken leadership tests on a 10.
4 - I was going to ask if your extra shots were the sms or ion cause it seemed you were going ion.
battle comments:
Personally i would never have infilitrated the kroot vs in your face tyranids I use them to double/triple wrap my bomb so you have to shoot them if you ever plan to get to the bomb. (this also makes sure they have 2+ cover unit you kill them) Typically i try and find some area terrain for them to sit in and put the bomb behind it so the kroot get good cover saves and so does the bomb, not all maps provide such a thing but its the goal!
Its a shame all that dakka couldnt bring down that hive tyrant, they must have been making some awesome grounding checks!
shogun wrote: @Theorius: I got a nice Battle report for you. Its based upon your 1500 point armylist and my tyranid monster list (I revered to earlier):
Nice report dude! couple of mistakes but not alot.
However, this definetly shows tyranids are a danger to the bomb due to high str volume of fire and every damn one of them is dangerous in assault so it is harder to run. They also have alot of good resilient deep strikers that can weather the intercept and come out fighting.
Wrong tau stuff:
1 - Every suit and the riptides have blacksun filters, turn 1 they should have killed some things before your psychic choir got into action which could have drastically changed your game.
2 - I also do not see how 24 twin linked devourer shots can kill 8 drones if they were in cover for a 2+ save or were the drones outside of it? ((assuming outside))
3 - When the trygon assaulted was the command suit still alive? he would have given either monster hunter to kill the big dude(or more likely) stubborn so they would have always taken leadership tests on a 10.
4 - I was going to ask if your extra shots were the sms or ion cause it seemed you were going ion.
battle comments:
Personally i would never have infilitrated the kroot vs in your face tyranids I use them to double/triple wrap my bomb so you have to shoot them if you ever plan to get to the bomb. (this also makes sure they have 2+ cover unit you kill them) Typically i try and find some area terrain for them to sit in and put the bomb behind it so the kroot get good cover saves and so does the bomb, not all maps provide such a thing but its the goal!
Its a shame all that dakka couldnt bring down that hive tyrant, they must have been making some awesome grounding checks!
Thanks for the response!
1: Forgot about the blacksun filter! Hive Tyrants were standing behind cover (ruin) but I believe only one Riptide could have seen one partially after moving 6 inch. Hive Tyrant would have gotten a 4+ coversave but thats extra wound or two could make a difference.
2: As you can see I moved the Farsightbomb forward out of cover and the drones only got a 3+ coversave. Still a good round of shooting for the Hive Tyrants..
3: I used the monster hunter because I really needed to kill them! I knew that the Healthy Trygon might survive it but probably not with a lot of wounds left. I was hoping that Overwatch would deal with him. I also made the mistake not using the Riptides 'supporting fire'. Dont know if the were within 6 inch but the should have been... On the other hand, Riptides should'nt have been shooting at all because the used interceptor!!!
4: After turn 3 I realised that the ion excellerator doesn't get double shots with the Nova upgrade! These riptides where shooting more than the where allowed to! My mistake..
I could have used kroot for bubblewrap but then there was no way of winning with 2 tervigons + gaunts on the objectives. I outflanked the kroot to get the (Tau)objectives and was hoping that in the end I could deny the big tyranid objective (4) and win.
And yes, Tyrant did very well and kept on flying. But on the other hand I would really liked it if at least one of them got Iron arm.
shogun wrote: @Theorius: I got a nice Battle report for you. Its based upon your 1500 point armylist and my tyranid monster list (I revered to earlier):
Nice report dude! couple of mistakes but not alot.
However, this definetly shows tyranids are a danger to the bomb due to high str volume of fire and every damn one of them is dangerous in assault so it is harder to run. They also have alot of good resilient deep strikers that can weather the intercept and come out fighting.
Wrong tau stuff:
1 - Every suit and the riptides have blacksun filters, turn 1 they should have killed some things before your psychic choir got into action which could have drastically changed your game.
2 - I also do not see how 24 twin linked devourer shots can kill 8 drones if they were in cover for a 2+ save or were the drones outside of it? ((assuming outside))
3 - When the trygon assaulted was the command suit still alive? he would have given either monster hunter to kill the big dude(or more likely) stubborn so they would have always taken leadership tests on a 10.
4 - I was going to ask if your extra shots were the sms or ion cause it seemed you were going ion.
battle comments:
Personally i would never have infilitrated the kroot vs in your face tyranids I use them to double/triple wrap my bomb so you have to shoot them if you ever plan to get to the bomb. (this also makes sure they have 2+ cover unit you kill them) Typically i try and find some area terrain for them to sit in and put the bomb behind it so the kroot get good cover saves and so does the bomb, not all maps provide such a thing but its the goal!
Its a shame all that dakka couldnt bring down that hive tyrant, they must have been making some awesome grounding checks!
Thanks for the response!
1: Forgot about the blacksun filter! Hive Tyrants were standing behind cover (ruin) but I believe only one Riptide could have seen one partially after moving 6 inch. Hive Tyrant would have gotten a 4+ coversave but thats extra wound or two could make a difference.
2: As you can see I moved the Farsightbomb forward out of cover and the drones only got a 3+ coversave. Still a good round of shooting for the Hive Tyrants..
3: I used the monster hunter because I really needed to kill them! I knew that the Healthy Trygon might survive it but probably not with a lot of wounds left. I was hoping that Overwatch would deal with him. I also made the mistake not using the Riptides 'supporting fire'. Dont know if the were within 6 inch but the should have been... On the other hand, Riptides should'nt have been shooting at all because the used interceptor!!!
4: After turn 3 I realised that the ion excellerator doesn't get double shots with the Nova upgrade! These riptides where shooting more than the where allowed to! My mistake..
I could have used kroot for bubblewrap but then there was no way of winning with 2 tervigons + gaunts on the objectives. I outflanked the kroot to get the (Tau)objectives and was hoping that in the end I could deny the big tyranid objective (4) and win.
And yes, Tyrant did very well and kept on flying. But on the other hand I would really liked it if at least one of them got Iron arm.
How in the world is their enough los blocking terrain to keep all those monstrous creatures out of sight of the bomb and both riptides on turn 1? the riptides alone should have seen most everything with their 72" ion cannons if not the 36" sms (same with the farsight missile pods) did you play on a cliff map with the cliff on their side, lol, damn!
the deathstar either has a 4+ cover in the open / or a 2+ with any form of cover
the riptide could supporting fire with the weapon he did not use for interceptor.
Going for a chance kill on the tryron with monster hunter would be unadvisable in most situations, making sure you do not run away or get swept is far more important to keep the 1000pt bomb around! then they could have hit and run and shot him and anything else they wanted in turn 4.
Still a close match! and shows tyranids have some chops since none of them had iron arm or enfeeble which would have made it far more difficult, but the tyranid are by no means a hard counter in my eyes they are top tier though!
Automatically Appended Next Post:
jy2 wrote: Depends on how the unit is positioned. If they aren't spread out and are closer to the chaos deployment edge (or near the center of the table), then each AP3 template can potentially hit 6-8 Tau models. Then you've also got D3+1 models hit from vector-strike by each heldrake. That can easily average out to 20+ AP3 wounds (which are all auto-hits).
Of course, that is not factoring in Intercepting riptides with heavy burst cannons.
if they are all hugging sure, but if you have 3 helldrakes, I am using my 2" coherency ruler to make sure they are all max spread in which case shooting suit(1.5"), drone(1" base) suit (1.5" base) (equals 8" flame template with 2" coherency between the suits and the drone between them)
Never faced them though, can I judge where they will come in for vector? and make sure shadowsun, farsight and the iradium are at the front so he can take the vectors on his 2+ armor?
Its bloody nasty but it just requires the deathstar to be very careful and even then your only going to mitigate some of the damage but not stop it. Hopefully I can hide in assault and hit and run out. Id almost rather be in assault with a greater deamon than take 3 helldrakes to the face.
I haven't read any of this thread, but I've had 2 games vs the Farsight 'bomb', and both times I just had to assault it with 2 Flying Monstrous Creatures and a unit of paltry Troops. The little guys charge thus either getting Overwatched or not, who cares, then 1 of the MCs takes the inevitable challenge, and the other either Smash attacks to Instakill every other Tau suit, or if he's got a Staff of Change (and Iron Arm sometimes then he gets a few more attacks. And the Tzeentch FMCs have Prescience on them usually, so they mostly hit.
Of course for armies who don't have FMCs, they're probably screwed!
Lord Krungharr wrote: I haven't read any of this thread, but I've had 2 games vs the Farsight 'bomb', and both times I just had to assault it with 2 Flying Monstrous Creatures and a unit of paltry Troops. The little guys charge thus either getting Overwatched or not, who cares, then 1 of the MCs takes the inevitable challenge, and the other either Smash attacks to Instakill every other Tau suit, or if he's got a Staff of Change (and Iron Arm sometimes then he gets a few more attacks. And the Tzeentch FMCs have Prescience on them usually, so they mostly hit.
Of course for armies who don't have FMCs, they're probably screwed!
I bought the daemons codex and have been studying it. I play to challenge jy2s monsterous flying pink horror army one day when we can meet at the game store we both frequent to see how it goes!
Lord Krungharr wrote: I haven't read any of this thread, but I've had 2 games vs the Farsight 'bomb', and both times I just had to assault it with 2 Flying Monstrous Creatures and a unit of paltry Troops. The little guys charge thus either getting Overwatched or not, who cares, then 1 of the MCs takes the inevitable challenge, and the other either Smash attacks to Instakill every other Tau suit, or if he's got a Staff of Change (and Iron Arm sometimes then he gets a few more attacks. And the Tzeentch FMCs have Prescience on them usually, so they mostly hit.
Of course for armies who don't have FMCs, they're probably screwed!
I bought the daemons codex and have been studying it. I play to challenge jy2s monsterous flying pink horror army one day when we can meet at the game store we both frequent to see how it goes!
Easy prediction because JY2 doesn't run Fateweaver. You table him or he tables you. lol. JY2 is obviously a fantastic player, but his Demon Army is intentionally leaving a lot to the dice.
Edit: As for Drakes, it doesn't matter where you put your 2+ guys, it wounds randomly. I discovered that by attempting to tank a Vector Strike with a TDAWG. I was so proud of my placement, and it didn't matter, four Grey Hunters still died.
Lord Krungharr wrote: I haven't read any of this thread, but I've had 2 games vs the Farsight 'bomb', and both times I just had to assault it with 2 Flying Monstrous Creatures and a unit of paltry Troops. The little guys charge thus either getting Overwatched or not, who cares, then 1 of the MCs takes the inevitable challenge, and the other either Smash attacks to Instakill every other Tau suit, or if he's got a Staff of Change (and Iron Arm sometimes then he gets a few more attacks. And the Tzeentch FMCs have Prescience on them usually, so they mostly hit.
Of course for armies who don't have FMCs, they're probably screwed!
We're assuming the player is good enough not to leave his bomb in an assaultable position. If they're just dicking it around in the open, and not dancing it behind bubblewraps or onto impassable terrain, (and if they're not taking advantage of I5 hit and run on Ld10 Stubborn) then they're really not doing it right.
Theorius wrote: How in the world is their enough los blocking terrain to keep all those monstrous creatures out of sight of the bomb and both riptides on turn 1? the riptides alone should have seen most everything with their 72" ion cannons if not the 36" sms (same with the farsight missile pods) did you play on a cliff map with the cliff on their side, lol, damn!
With hammer and anvil deployment I deployed more than 42 inch away because I didn't want to be seen (nightfight). As you can see on the picture I deployed both hive tyrants behind cover but one would probably be sticking out a bit. Without the wings (because the dont count) they're actually pretty slim (watching their diet). The big piece of terrain in the middle of the field would block the view of one riptide completely towards the Hive tyrant. The both could have shot a tervigon but killing it would be very unlikely. After that the tervigon would survived the match unharmed.
Going for a chance kill on the tryron with monster hunter would be unadvisable in most situations, making sure you do not run away or get swept is far more important to keep the 1000pt bomb around! then they could have hit and run and shot him and anything else they wanted in turn 4.
Maybe so but if the didn't use monster hunter the wouldn't wound them as much. What if the other Trygon also survived? Another 4 smash hits would cripple the Bomb more and I still needed them to get rid of those tervigons in the end.
Still a close match! and shows tyranids have some chops since none of them had iron arm or enfeeble which would have made it far more difficult, but the tyranid are by no means a hard counter in my eyes they are top tier though!
True, but with 1700+ tournament matches Tyranid will lose a lot because at sum point the cannot take the shooting anymore. And don't get me wrong...you need to play it smart to beat the farsightbomb or else you get crushed.
Lord Krungharr wrote: I haven't read any of this thread, but I've had 2 games vs the Farsight 'bomb', and both times I just had to assault it with 2 Flying Monstrous Creatures and a unit of paltry Troops. The little guys charge thus either getting Overwatched or not, who cares, then 1 of the MCs takes the inevitable challenge, and the other either Smash attacks to Instakill every other Tau suit, or if he's got a Staff of Change (and Iron Arm sometimes then he gets a few more attacks. And the Tzeentch FMCs have Prescience on them usually, so they mostly hit.
Of course for armies who don't have FMCs, they're probably screwed!
I bought the daemons codex and have been studying it. I play to challenge jy2s monsterous flying pink horror army one day when we can meet at the game store we both frequent to see how it goes!
Anytime buddy. Just give me a PM if you can make it out there one of these days (but not next week).
BTW, my daemon list is constantly evolving. The newest daemon list I call my Soul of LoC-N-Load daemons - 2x LoC's and 3 soulgrinders. You'll see it very soon in a video batrep against Reecius' tyranids which he took to Adepticon.
Easy prediction because JY2 doesn't run Fateweaver. You table him or he tables you. lol. JY2 is obviously a fantastic player, but his Demon Army is intentionally leaving a lot to the dice.
Edit: As for Drakes, it doesn't matter where you put your 2+ guys, it wounds randomly. I discovered that by attempting to tank a Vector Strike with a TDAWG. I was so proud of my placement, and it didn't matter, four Grey Hunters still died.
Actually, I'm thinking about running Fateweaver again in my list. Recently, I've been running dual-LoC's but I may just give Fateweaver a go. Might as well since I'm already using the model (just proxying him as a LoC).
In my last game against Reecius, I failed my Grimoire 3 times!!!
8Pages of "Thius Deathstar can't be beaten and here's why" followed by "...well it CAN be beaten and here's how" followed by more stuff on "nuh uh and here's why"
Probably be easier at this stage to play it or dont and let life teach you lessons about the correctitude of those theories. Cause theory hammering it seems to have run its course.
Jancoran wrote: 8Pages of "Thius Deathstar can't be beaten and here's why" followed by "...well it CAN be beaten and here's how" followed by more stuff on "nuh uh and here's why"
Probably be easier at this stage to play it or dont and let life teach you lessons about the correctitude of those theories. Cause theory hammering it seems to have run its course.
Hehehe
Uh, the first pages saying how easy it is to win with it come from the person's experience.
I'm 6-2-1 with it right now, with a single loss against another Tau player who went first and splatted it (Commander with MSSS & C&CN attached to Riptide w/ Velo-EWO - didn't even need ML) and 2 ties against Heldrake spam that took out my scoring units but died to Skyrays, leaving me chasing down plague marines and deepstruck seekers.
So initially I was thinking about necrons using death+despair teks in scythes to drop in and ruin the unit with 4 "2+ wounding, cover ignoring, ap1 flamers along with some rapid fired sniper shots (exact number depending on how many marks are left after interceptor fire) possibly twinlinking the whole lot with a stalker.
(2 x Barge lords, 2 more scythes + 20 warriors in 5 man squads to fill out to 1500)
Not exactly a TAC list, but one that heavily punishes the dire lack of anti air in the list and can pretty effectively murder any deathstar in the game...
But where is the fun in that, How about...
1x Bargelord
2x tremor crypteks
1x5 warriors in an ark
2x5 warriors in Scythes
1x C'Tan Shard with Lord of fire+Writhing Worldscape
1x Doomsday Ark
1x Monolith
Leaving you with 155 points for whatever else takes your fancy possibly an anni barge and some more teks or toys, 3 spyders (though im loathe to run a list with them and no scarabs) or a triach stalker.
A super fun list providing at least 2 ID pieplates on platforms that are heavily unlikely to be damaged by the Riptides...The devious part however comes because...
The Farsun star relies on being in cover and its 3d6 move to get to where it needs to be...
Against this list it needs to be 9" away to stand a chance of melting the vehicles smashing hell out of them.
Unfortunately if they want to use the aforementioned cover and JSJ to get closer
1. The unit is going to be moving as per dangerous terrain during the movement phase . On the roll of a 1 or 2 each for each model will be taking a wound no cover saves allowed (tremor teks/writhing world)
2. Any model that then goes on to use its jetpack to thrust, if it leaves or lands in area cover (which it most likely will to avoid being splattered next shooting phase) On the roll of a 1 or 2 will be taking a wound no cover saves allowed (writhing world)
3. Assuming any models ever make it into 2d6 melta range they will then be praying that every time they shoot, lord of fire doesn't cause them to be removed from play... no wounds, no look out sir, just removed from play. Obviously this hurts people with the ability to fire 2 melta type weapons per turn twice as hard.
A list which hits the star in its mobility, takes advantage of their inability to deal with av13/14 and leaves them crapping their pants in fear of doing anything...which i would consider pretty important after winning X fights being totally unstoppable, retired because its too good etc etc.
Eat hubris you Blue, fishy, commie b4stards.
I lose another turn and by then he dropped his assaultmarines on all the objectives and I could't win the mission anymore.
