So I watched a few games at my local independent gaming store this weekend & I watched a IG player go against a Tau player. The IG player attempted to issue Bring It Down order on the Tau Riptide, but the Tau player said because it was accompanied by drones he could not. He said the same was true of Hive Tyrants accompanied by smaller tyranids. Is he correct? Basically the only time this order can be issued is against monstrous creatures that are by themselves/lone vehicles & or vehicles squadrons?

I think this goes in YMDC...

The reason Bring it Down doesn't work on a Hive Tyrant with Tyrant Guard is because it's a Tyrant Guard unit (Infantry) with a Hive Tyrant attached to it as what is essentially an independent character, so you're firing at an infantry unit, not a monstrous creature unit, so if Riptides + drones work the same way, the tau player's right, if not it depends on the wording of the codex.

 PrinceRaven wrote:
The reason Bring it Down doesn't work on a Hive Tyrant with Tyrant Guard is because it's a Tyrant Guard unit (Infantry) with a Hive Tyrant attached to it as what is essentially an independent character, so you're firing at an infantry unit, not a monstrous creature unit, so if Riptides + drones work the same way, the tau player's right, if not it depends on the wording of the codex.

The guard codex is really getting on in years, isn't it even older than the nid one? Maybe they didn't know to account for this.

And it says 'or monstrous creature (or unit of monstrous creatures)'. So no real help there.

Commissar Benny wrote:
So I watched a few games at my local independent gaming store this weekend & I watched a IG player go against a Tau player. The IG player attempted to issue Bring It Down order on the Tau Riptide, but the Tau player said because it was accompanied by drones he could not. He said the same was true of Hive Tyrants accompanied by smaller tyranids. Is he correct? Basically the only time this order can be issued is against monstrous creatures that are by themselves/lone vehicles & or vehicles squadrons?

The rule for Bring it Down! is as follows

If the order is successfully issued, choose one enemy vehicle (or squadron of enemy vehicles) or monstrous creature (or unit of monstrous creatures) visible to the officer. The ordered unit immediately shoots at the nominated target, counting their weapons as twin-linked.

It says unit of monstrous creatures, so that's looking like a no. That feels really wrong though, like we should still be able to do the order.

If I was a commander, I wouldn't discount the order to bring it down just because there are tiny drones flying around it.

But we can argue RAI vs RAW all day long. For now, it's probably safe to play it as no, you can't if they have drones (which sucks, because that's one of the few tricks my foot IG has for dealing with those things.)

Thanks for the feedback everyone. I agree with MrMoustaffa in that it should be able to, but because it is pretty vague in codex that for time being that its a no. Perhaps they will address it in the next update.

Not sure if you should post whole rules here, it is generally avoided as much as possible.

Still the reason the ability can not be used is pretty simple, from a Rules as Written perspective. The rule itself only allows you to target monstrous creatures, flying monstrous creatures or vehicles, clearly designed to give additional firepower against these harder foes. Should it be used on mixed units, it is highly likely that it would create additional hits that would then be resolved against unit types that where not named in the rule. As there is no way to ensure the extra hits are directed only at the unit type allowed, the whole rule has to be discarded as the limitations can not be met.

It is clearly an oversight, compounded by old-codex-syndrome, which is why I hope imperial guards gain a new codex sometime in the near future.

The Riptide's attached drones have caused a couple of rules conundrums so far. I hope they get FAQ'd soon.

 MrMoustaffa wrote:

Commissar Benny wrote:
So I watched a few games at my local independent gaming store this weekend & I watched a IG player go against a Tau player. The IG player attempted to issue Bring It Down order on the Tau Riptide, but the Tau player said because it was accompanied by drones he could not. He said the same was true of Hive Tyrants accompanied by smaller tyranids. Is he correct? Basically the only time this order can be issued is against monstrous creatures that are by themselves/lone vehicles & or vehicles squadrons?

The rule for Bring it Down! is as follows

If the order is successfully issued, choose one enemy vehicle (or squadron of enemy vehicles) or monstrous creature (or unit of monstrous creatures) visible to the officer. The ordered unit immediately shoots at the nominated target, counting their weapons as twin-linked.

It says unit of monstrous creatures, so that's looking like a no. That feels really wrong though, like we should still be able to do the order.

If I was a commander, I wouldn't discount the order to bring it down just because there are tiny drones flying around it.

But we can argue RAI vs RAW all day long. For now, it's probably safe to play it as no, you can't if they have drones (which sucks, because that's one of the few tricks my foot IG has for dealing with those things.)

If a riptide is dumb enough to bring drones, shoot them out and watch him flee. If he is not, you've still got Bring it Down!

 Purifier wrote:
[

If a riptide is dumb enough to bring drones, shoot them out and watch him flee. If he is not, you've still got Bring it Down!

If your opponent has a riptide and two drones and wants to play that ticky tacky....

OK. 2 drones means majority toughness is 4?

Pretty much. DSing stormies can insta gib the riptide in that scenario if they aren't intercepted to death (assuming that they have meltas)

 MrMoustaffa wrote:

Commissar Benny wrote:
So I watched a few games at my local independent gaming store this weekend & I watched a IG player go against a Tau player. The IG player attempted to issue Bring It Down order on the Tau Riptide, but the Tau player said because it was accompanied by drones he could not. He said the same was true of Hive Tyrants accompanied by smaller tyranids. Is he correct? Basically the only time this order can be issued is against monstrous creatures that are by themselves/lone vehicles & or vehicles squadrons?

The rule for Bring it Down! is as follows

If the order is successfully issued, choose one enemy vehicle (or squadron of enemy vehicles) or monstrous creature (or unit of monstrous creatures) visible to the officer. The ordered unit immediately shoots at the nominated target, counting their weapons as twin-linked.

It says unit of monstrous creatures, so that's looking like a no. That feels really wrong though, like we should still be able to do the order.

If I was a commander, I wouldn't discount the order to bring it down just because there are tiny drones flying around it.

But we can argue RAI vs RAW all day long. For now, it's probably safe to play it as no, you can't if they have drones (which sucks, because that's one of the few tricks my foot IG has for dealing with those things.)

"BRING THAT XENOS ABOMINATION DOWN!"

"We can't sir!"

"By the Emperor, why not?"

"It's got...*gulp* DRONES!"

"Drones!? THRONE ON TERRA WE'RE ALL DOOMED! SAVE YOURSELVES FOOLS! RUN! RUUUUUNNNNNNN!!!"

"Heheh, silly Gue'la."

^I probably laughed harder then I should have at that

 Green is Best! wrote:
OK. 2 drones means majority toughness is 4?

The drones that you can get to accompany the Riptide are T6.

For applying the rule... it depends on how you parse the sentence, but surely you fulfil the requirement of targeting a monstrous creature? It doesn't say "the entire unit must be monstrous creatures". Ergo, Bring It Down still allows you to target the MC alone.
That, of course, then plays havoc with wound allocation especially if it's not the nearest in the unit... but I don't think we can count it as a flat "no" just yet.

 Super Ready wrote:

The drones that you can get to accompany the Riptide are T6.

I am not trying to be snippy here, but what causes this?
Does the riptide have drones with a separate entry from normal drones?
Is there a rule for drones saying this?

Thanks,

Green is Best! wrote:

OK. 2 drones means majority toughness is 4?

Given the HEavy missile drones are specified as T6, no the majority toughness is NOT 4.

motyak wrote:Pretty much. DSing stormies can insta gib the riptide in that scenario if they aren't intercepted to death (assuming that they have meltas)

Wrong, for the reason mentioned above AND for the fact the iD works off the toughness of the model the unsaved wound is applied to, NOT the majority T of the unit.

nosferatu1001 wrote:

motyak wrote:Pretty much. DSing stormies can insta gib the riptide in that scenario if they aren't intercepted to death (assuming that they have meltas)

Wrong, for the reason mentioned above AND for the fact the iD works off the toughness of the model the unsaved wound is applied to, NOT the majority T of the unit.

Huh. That's sure interesting to learn. It's never cone up for me yet, but I'll be sure to remember it if that comes up.

Are you not still targeting the monstrous creature though? And the other units just have a special rule that means they intercept?

I get it that its a competitive game but it just takes away the spirit of the game if you would argue something like this.

No, you are shooting a "unit". That unit is not a unit of monstrous creatures, nor is it a single unit of "MC". It is currently neither.

nosferatu1001 wrote:
No, you are shooting a "unit". That unit is not a unit of monstrous creatures, nor is it a single unit of "MC". It is currently neither.

So is it correct to simply call a riptide unit "Jetpack"? I mean, that's the only typing that the two share...

Yep, its "jetpack *something*"

The something is undefined

Christopher300 wrote:
it just takes away the spirit of the game if you would argue something like this.

Agreed, but this is YMDC, and that's what YMDC is for.
And if no consensus can be found ("Yeah, that sounds reasonable. I'll allow you to shoot that at my riptide.") then you have to go by the letter. And that's what YMDC does.

Can you choose to focus fire to only target the riptide, or do the rules of "Bring it Down!" cause it to still fail?

nosferatu1001 wrote:
No, you are shooting a "unit". That unit is not a unit of monstrous creatures, nor is it a single unit of "MC". It is currently neither.

Not true in the case of Bring it Down!. Initially it doesn't say "target" or "perform a shooting attack", the rule says "choose". Only once that choice is made are we told to shoot at the "nominated target".
Having made that realisation, I'd actually argue that RAW you can specifically pick out a particular MC from a unit of MCs if you really wanted to, though I don't believe that's the intent.

You target units. By definition if you are shooting a nominated target, the target is a unit.

Nilok -focus fire is cover saves. No other application.

What's the unit type of a Riptide unit with drones?

rigeld2 wrote:
What's the unit type of a Riptide unit with drones?

I see what you're trying to ask - I had a look but couldn't find anything in the book to cover classifying mixed unit types. Ergo, the Riptide is still Jetpack MC and the drones are still Jetpack Infantry. (...I think, not sure on the drones.)

Jetpack *something* - as it is a mixed unit, that isnt an IC, you cannto see which type takes priority.

Sure you can - it's the type that the unit was bought as.
The Riptide was bought as an MC. The drones are normal members of an MC unit.

They arent ICs, so avoid using the "Normal members" line

They are Jetpack Infantry; the MC is Jetpack MC.

nosferatu1001 wrote:
They arent ICs, so avoid using the "Normal members" line

Isn't that the wording in the Tau codex for drones?

They are Jetpack Infantry; the MC is Jetpack MC.

Right - I'm not that dense.

My point is that the unit isn't purchased as a MC + drones... rather it's purchased as a MC that gets upgraded with drones.

The rule says that the drones are counted as members of the unit. That doesn't mean it changes any part of the drone's profile we're already given!?! Unless the drones should be wandering around with 5 Wounds as well...

I never said it changed their profile. It doesn't give them Smash either because they aren't MCs.

They're simply members of an MC unit.

This reminds of another mixed unit situation, Lone Wolves with Fenrisian Wolves. I'd say this all comes down to whether the Riptide unit is classified as a Monstrous Creature unit because the original model is a Monstrous Creature, or if it isn't because the drones aren't Monstrous Creatures, I haven't managed to find anything in the rules giving a clear answer.

rigeld2 wrote:
I never said it changed their profile. It doesn't give them Smash either because they aren't MCs.

They're simply members of an MC unit.

That's what I was getting at before - there aren't any rules for changing model types based on being in mixed units. So there isn't a rule that falls under "all rules purposes" that says, for instance, "models joining an existing unit inherit their type".
Or, to put it another way - being Jetpack Infantry in no way inhibits them being part of a unit with the Riptide.

 Super Ready wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:
I never said it changed their profile. It doesn't give them Smash either because they aren't MCs.

They're simply members of an MC unit.

That's what I was getting at before - there aren't any rules for changing model types based on being in mixed units. So there isn't a rule that falls under "all rules purposes" that says, for instance, "models joining an existing unit inherit their type".
Or, to put it another way - being Jetpack Infantry in no way inhibits them being part of a unit with the Riptide.

I'm in agreement. A Riptide on it's own is a 1-model Monstrous Creature unit, IMHO. Yes, the Jetpack Infantry join the squad, but it's still a Monstrous Creature unit.

 Super Ready wrote:
The rule says that the drones are counted as members of the unit. That doesn't mean it changes any part of the drone's profile we're already given!?! Unless the drones should be wandering around with 5 Wounds as well...

Well it says that they "act as additional squad members in all regards."

I'm in agreement. A Riptide on it's own is a 1-model Monstrous Creature unit, IMHO. Yes, the Jetpack Infantry join the squad, but it's still a Monstrous Creature unit.

This is HIWPI

I thought the wording was "for all rules purposes"? But again, either way... there's no rules to tell us that models can inherit unit types simply by being part of another unit.
Otherwise, all these questions about Eldar characters would be moot because a Jetbike Autarch joining a unit of infantry would suddenly lose use of the Jetbike type. Or have I missed something?

I'm really not sure I'm properly explaining where my train of thought is on this. Hopefully you know what I mean.

From what I can tell, you need an entirely homogeneous MC unit in order to make use of "Bring it down!"

I think it is an artifact of having an old codex that didn't account for mixed MC units and should be FAQed.

 Nilok wrote:
From what I can tell, you need an entirely homogeneous MC unit in order to make use of "Bring it down!"

I think it is an artifact of having an old codex that didn't account for mixed MC units and should be FAQed.

There's no reason for that assumption.

I'm going to need a citation that shows a unit type changes when upgrades are bought.

rigeld2 wrote:

 Nilok wrote:
From what I can tell, you need an entirely homogeneous MC unit in order to make use of "Bring it down!"

I think it is an artifact of having an old codex that didn't account for mixed MC units and should be FAQed.

There's no reason for that assumption.

I'm going to need a citation that shows a unit type changes when upgrades are bought.

Indeed.

Note that the entry states "Unit Type", and typically "Unit" refers to the whole squad. However, this brings in the interesting question as Drones themselves have a "Unit Type" that is different. So does this mean that "Unit" in this context refers to the whole squad still or individual models...?

Drones also have a rule saying they act as additional squad members in all regards.

Additional to what squad? The MC squad.
So changing the unit type of the unit would be breaking that rule.

rigeld2 wrote:

 Nilok wrote:
From what I can tell, you need an entirely homogeneous MC unit in order to make use of "Bring it down!"

I think it is an artifact of having an old codex that didn't account for mixed MC units and should be FAQed.

There's no reason for that assumption.

I'm going to need a citation that shows a unit type changes when upgrades are bought.

The problem with defining drones as an upgrade during game turns, if that they count as models in the unit for all accounts. They also have their own unit profile (jet pack infanty), so they don't gain the Riptide's MC rules.

The real question is when a unit type is determined. A problem I am finding is the Shielded Missile Drones are listed in the codex and purchased the same way I add crisis suits. Normaly you would look at a unit's composition to determine it's type. When you buy drones for the Riptide, dose it start the game as a MC unit, or a Mixed unit?

Find rules support for a "mixed" unit.

So, a unit of 3 Carnifexes that have been joined by a Tyranid Prime can't be targeted by "Bring it Down" because the Prime is not an MC? Interesting.. IG is being released soonish anyway so we'll probably have the issue fixed then.

On what page can I find the rules which tell us how to determine the 'unit type' of the whole squad and not the individual models?

rigeld2 wrote:
Find rules support for a "mixed" unit.

Reading on unit types, it leads to far more questions then answers.

Unit types seems to be a misnomer they is says they are rules for the model.

In most cases, it will be fairly obvious which unit type category a model fall into, but as unit type is essentially an extension of the characteristic profle...

Unit types should be renamed to "Model Types" as they don't work on a unit basis.

Rigeld, I will ask you honestly, in 5th edition, was "unit type" defining a model, or a unit?
I don't want you to try and catch my words, I would like your help trying to solve this rule conundrum.
-Edit- Did Unit Types ever count for the unit or just for a single model? -/Edit-


I also think I have lost the original point of the question. The question is, dose the act of having non-MC models in a unit with a MC, prevent an IG player from using "Bring it Down!" since they do not have permission to use it on a unit containing other unit types.

Bring it Down!: ...If the order is successfully issued, choose one enemy vehicle (or squadron of enemy vehicles) or monstrous creature (or unit of monstrous creatures) visible to the officer. The ordered unit immediately shoots at the nominated target, counting their weapons as twin-linked.

Technically, reading Bring it Down! again, you could be picking the Monstrous Creature within the unit. Nowhere does it state that the Monstrous Creature has to be in isolation. Neither does the "(or unit of monstrous creatures)" limit this, since it's providing an alternative.

The closest thing I have found for defining the Squad type, using the term squad type just to ensure it isn't mistaken for a unit type, is the force organization charts. There is nothing within that tells you the squad is a "monstrous creature Unit." They are either elite units, heavy units, troop units or the likes. Clearly not useful for trying to determine how you decide what squad type you are dealing with, at least not within terms related to the models individual unit type.

Hence why I would like someone to help me find a page or rule that I have overlooked which allows us to determine the squad type based on it's members unit type.

PS:
Oh it can get worse too as there are ways to have vehicles mixed in with non-vehicle unit types. RavenWing Attack Squads come to mind, where you can purchase a land speeder as an upgrade for a bike squadron. If you thought the whole mixed unit breaking the rules debate was bad, imagine how much worse they are when you try to add vehicle rules to the mix.

The land speeder as an upgrade for a bike squadron in the RavenWing Attack Squad is a unit unto itself and is not attached to the unit.

I see that now, as I had overlooked page 47. The Combat squad rules for raven-wings are different then the normal combat squad rules, in that you must automatically separate the Land Speeder as well as the Attack Bikes. At least that fixes the possible issues arising from non-vehicles and vehicles mixing in this case.

Thanks.

 Enigwolf wrote:
Technically, reading Bring it Down! again, you could be picking the Monstrous Creature within the unit. Nowhere does it state that the Monstrous Creature has to be in isolation. Neither does the "(or unit of monstrous creatures)" limit this, since it's providing an alternative.

I don't think so. If the rule said "a unit containing a Monstrous Creature" instead of "a unit of Monstrous Creatures" I would agree. However, the way I read it, you don't have permission to use it against units containing non MC or vehicle models.

mortetvie wrote:So, a unit of 3 Carnifexes that have been joined by a Tyranid Prime can't be targeted by "Bring it Down" because the Prime is not an MC? Interesting.. IG is being released soonish anyway so we'll probably have the issue fixed then.

It's still a Carnifex unit, the Prime's just attached as an IC, I don't think it would prevent Bring it Down.

Yeah unit type is solely a property of individual model profiles. Squad type does not exist in 6th edition.
supporting rules can be found in brb page 3, other important information. BRB page 44, first paragraph of the second column under unit types. This is also obliquely referenced in numerous other rules through out the BRB. It has also had threads discussing it, and it was pretty decicively proven that there is no such thing as a squad level unit type in 6th edition.

If there was an over all squad level unit type hole miles wide could be poked in the rules and you could drive whole imperial guard armored columns through it.

The rule gives permission to target 3 things
-a vehicle
-a single monstrous creature
-a unit of monstrous creatures

a unit of jetpack infanttry and a monstrous creature is not one of those allowed targets.

What I would do in this situation is have the power go off, but the hits can only be allocated to creature. This makes sense because they are not trying to shoot the smaller creatures or drones. It is similar to the rule where you can choose to shoot people who are not in cover.

adkin1pw wrote:
What I would do in this situation is have the power go off, but the hits can only be allocated to creature. This makes sense because they are not trying to shoot the smaller creatures or drones. It is similar to the rule where you can choose to shoot people who are not in cover.

That's ridiculous, using a single order to not only get twin-linked but then also treat the shots as pseudo-precision shots.

 Nilok wrote:

 Enigwolf wrote:
Technically, reading Bring it Down! again, you could be picking the Monstrous Creature within the unit. Nowhere does it state that the Monstrous Creature has to be in isolation. Neither does the "(or unit of monstrous creatures)" limit this, since it's providing an alternative.

I don't think so. If the rule said "a unit containing a Monstrous Creature" instead of "a unit of Monstrous Creatures" I would agree. However, the way I read it, you don't have permission to use it against units containing non MC or vehicle models.

It said to choose "one monstrous creature". It never stated choose "a unit containing only a monstrous creature". Therefore, you have permission to choose it, regardless of its memberships in other units.

"now targeted"

Target is unit based, not model based

And it's a Riptide unit.
Is the Riptide an MC or not? The rest of his unit are normal members of his unit.

nosferatu1001 wrote:
"now targeted"

Target is unit based, not model based

Not in every instance, I would argue. That Ork psyker can snipe ICs.

Ok, this is how the whole thing has played out in my head.

We have no idea whether the unit counts as fully MC, or part-MC part Infantry, since we are given no rules for how to handle mixed units. I would argue that that means the existing unit type of each model is individually kept, I can see the argument for drones over-riding this, but that's moot here anyway because...

Bring it down! tells us we can "choose" the Monstrous Creature. That's the first part of the rule. Only once you have chosen does targetting come into play, but we're specifically targetting the MC here (the specific rule has already allowed us to bypass the standard rules for targetting a unit because it's specified what we can choose). So the drone unit type doesn't come into play any way.

 Enigwolf wrote:

nosferatu1001 wrote:
"now targeted"

Target is unit based, not model based

Not in every instance, I would argue. That Ork psyker can snipe ICs.

WIth a specific allowance to do so. Find the specific allowance to target an MC.

 Super Ready wrote:
Ok, this is how the whole thing has played out in my head.

We have no idea whether the unit counts as fully MC, or part-MC part Infantry, since we are given no rules for how to handle mixed units. I would argue that that means the existing unit type of each model is individually kept, I can see the argument for drones over-riding this, but that's moot here anyway because...

Bring it down! tells us we can "choose" the Monstrous Creature. That's the first part of the rule. Only once you have chosen does targetting come into play, but we're specifically targetting the MC here (the specific rule has already allowed us to bypass the standard rules for targetting a unit because it's specified what we can choose). So the drone unit type doesn't come into play any way.

This. This is what I'm referring to.

rigeld2 wrote:
Drones also have a rule saying they act as additional squad members in all regards.

Additional to what squad? The MC squad.
So changing the unit type of the unit would be breaking that rule.

Squads don't have unit types models do.

rigeld2 wrote:
And it's a Riptide unit.
Is the Riptide an MC or not? The rest of his unit are normal members of his unit.

Unit type is a property of models, not squads. Being normal members of his unit does not change them from being infantry. There is no such thing as squad based unit types in 6th edition. I'm not arguing for or against how the bring it down rule is used, but your argument has nothing to stand on.

The ability to turn an entire squad's shots into precision+ shots is very powerful. While it says to target and shoot at the MC, how would wound allocation work in such an instance?

Would it work like in a challenge where you can't assaign wounds to any other model, even for Lookout Sir?
Would it still allocate wounds to the closest model even if that isn't the MC?
How would the unit's cover be determined if the other units are behind cover and focus fire isn't declared?

 Nilok wrote:
While it says to target and shoot at the MC, how would wound allocation work in such an instance?

Would it work like in a challenge where you can't assaign wounds to any other model, even for Lookout Sir?
Would it still allocate wounds to the closest model even if that isn't the MC?
How would the unit's cover be determined if the other units are behind cover and focus fire isn't declared?

Now, this is the part that would be unclear. If it does work as I outlined above, that makes the MC the "nominated target" and not the entire unit. Meaning that that shooting attack would be ignoring the other members of the unit - so no Look Out Sir, no Focus Fire possible if it's a single model, and there would be no other members in the "unit" that would be closer.

Obviously, this would be horrifically broken. This is how I see it in strict RAW but there's no way it can be what was intended. Mind you, the other problem with it is that figuring out allocating which wounds where calls aspects of the targetting rules that "choosing" the MC has already bypassed.

"Unit type" is a part of the Statline; it is on a model by model basis(an Eldar Autarch on a jetbike attached to a unit of guardians does not cease being unit type jetbike and moves as a jetbike with all of the Jetbike rules).

So a unit of MCs would be a unit that consists of only MCs, as a Unit with 3 MCs and an Infantry model is not a unit of MCs(It is a unit with MCs and infantry).

the most damning bit is the wording.

It is not a MC unit, it is a unit of MCs(IG codex and FAQ/Erratta agree on this terminology). so a unit of 2 MCs joined buy an infantry might be able to be argued as an X unit(where X is the name of the MCs), and therefore possibly an "MC Unit", it is still not a unit of MCs(it contains an infantry model)

And this is coming from an ardent IG player.

 Kommissar Kel wrote:
"Unit type" is a part of the Statline; it is on a model by model basis(an Eldar Autarch on a jetbike attached to a unit of guardians does not cease being unit type jetbike and moves as a jetbike with all of the Jetbike rules).

So a unit of MCs would be a unit that consists of only MCs, as a Unit with 3 MCs and an Infantry model is not a unit of MCs(It is a unit with MCs and infantry).

the most damning bit is the wording.

It is not a MC unit, it is a unit of MCs(IG codex and FAQ/Erratta agree on this terminology). so a unit of 2 MCs joined buy an infantry might be able to be argued as an X unit(where X is the name of the MCs), and therefore possibly an "MC Unit", it is still not a unit of MCs(it contains an infantry model)

And this is coming from an ardent IG player.

Whether or not you're an IG player is irrelevant. We're discussing the semantics of the rules wording here. Technically, it tells you to pick an MC in the first part of the second section of the order - it never said to pick a unit of one MC or all MCs. Therefore, you can solo out the one MC in a mixed unit just as there are other psychic powers that can target specific individuals without the squad.

if the drones are war gear for the riptide then yh the rule should work if they are a seperately paid for unit then no they dsont im off to consult my copy of the codex on this matter

Drones are normal members of the unit. They are purchased similar to wargear, but are still unit members.

the way i have just read the two codex's, the order will work against the riptide as i am directly nominating it to be the intended unit thus allowing my heavy or special weapons team to hurt it

 Happyjew wrote:
Drones are normal members of the unit. They are purchased similar to wargear, but are still unit members.

They are not purchased similar to wargear in that case they are bought the same way one would buy additional members for a firewarrior or crisis suit unit.
Drones taken from the "drones list", which is what other units do, are very obviously purchased like wargear since they're on page 95 with all the other gear.

Hoverboy is correct - the drones are purchased directly from the Riptide entry - but it makes no difference to this argument anyway. How they're purchased has no bearing on their status in the unit.

i would simply play it the easy way, if you claim i cant targert it using bring it down then as my crappy conscripts charge u, you canot make me take a fear test

I choose the riptide (MC), shoot at it, if it has drones that it bought and they are closer to me they take the hits first.

I choose the riptide (MC), shoot at it, if it was joined by another squad and they are closer to me they take the hits first.

Codex says I can choose the target, brb says who in the squad/group is effected first.

Makes sense to me without all of the syntax,rules lawyering schenannigans.

scitech wrote:
I choose the riptide (MC), shoot at it, if it has drones that it bought and they are closer to me they take the hits first.

I choose the riptide (MC), shoot at it, if it was joined by another squad and they are closer to me they take the hits first.

Codex says I can choose the target, brb says who in the squad/group is effected first.

Makes sense to me without all of the syntax,rules lawyering schenannigans.

The codex dose not give you permission to use your twinlinked against infantry. This is the same problem as the Tau Forge World commander who has preferred enemy IC.

The FAQ says he can only use his PE if he uses precision shots on a IC. Which have to hit on 6 to work. Having to make a hit to activate your re-roll to hit on the already hit rolls seems silly, but that's what they said.

It does help him RR to wound tough.

OT: A unit of monstrous creatures is just that, a unit composed of models with the MC unit type.

Chris Lysander wrote:
i would simply play it the easy way, if you claim i cant targert it using bring it down then as my crappy conscripts charge u, you canot make me take a fear test

Oh? Fear has nothing to do with a unit that has the special rule, only a model. if you charge and none of your models make it into base contact with the Riptide, then there will be no Fear test that turn. The following turns however...

 Super Ready wrote:
Hoverboy is correct - the drones are purchased directly from the Riptide entry - but it makes no difference to this argument anyway. How they're purchased has no bearing on their status in the unit.

I would argue that it DOES potentially matter how they are purchased. When you look at the "Unit Composition" it says "1 Riptide". It doesn't say "1 Riptide and 0-3 Drones". The "unit" that you've purchased is a Riptide. The Eldar Support Battery specifically calls out "2 Guardians, 1 Support Weapon".

Personally I agree and don't think "Bring it Down" will work on a Riptide until you've killed its drones. I'm just being Devil's Advocate here.

Murrdox wrote:

 Super Ready wrote:
Hoverboy is correct - the drones are purchased directly from the Riptide entry - but it makes no difference to this argument anyway. How they're purchased has no bearing on their status in the unit.

I would argue that it DOES potentially matter how they are purchased. When you look at the "Unit Composition" it says "1 Riptide". It doesn't say "1 Riptide and 0-3 Drones". The "unit" that you've purchased is a Riptide. The Eldar Support Battery specifically calls out "2 Guardians, 1 Support Weapon".

Because the Support Battery comes with the purchase of the unit. Just like how a unit of Marines would have a Sergeant and 4 Space Marines, but a squad of Broadsides are all Broadside Shas'vres, but one can be upgraded to a Broadside Shas'ui.

Murrdox wrote:

 Super Ready wrote:
Hoverboy is correct - the drones are purchased directly from the Riptide entry - but it makes no difference to this argument anyway. How they're purchased has no bearing on their status in the unit.

I would argue that it DOES potentially matter how they are purchased. When you look at the "Unit Composition" it says "1 Riptide". It doesn't say "1 Riptide and 0-3 Drones". The "unit" that you've purchased is a Riptide. The Eldar Support Battery specifically calls out "2 Guardians, 1 Support Weapon".

Personally I agree and don't think "Bring it Down" will work on a Riptide until you've killed its drones. I'm just being Devil's Advocate here.

They have changed how unit composition is shown in the new 6e books.

By that logic, my Crisis Suits can't have any IC attached because it lists their Unit Composition as "1 Crisis Shas'ui", if I go on a little tangent. That also is the same for my Broadside team "1 Broadside Shas'ui".

Unit Composition now only shows what the minimum squad size is.

 Nilok wrote:

Murrdox wrote:

 Super Ready wrote:
Hoverboy is correct - the drones are purchased directly from the Riptide entry - but it makes no difference to this argument anyway. How they're purchased has no bearing on their status in the unit.

I would argue that it DOES potentially matter how they are purchased. When you look at the "Unit Composition" it says "1 Riptide". It doesn't say "1 Riptide and 0-3 Drones". The "unit" that you've purchased is a Riptide. The Eldar Support Battery specifically calls out "2 Guardians, 1 Support Weapon".

Personally I agree and don't think "Bring it Down" will work on a Riptide until you've killed its drones. I'm just being Devil's Advocate here.

They have changed how unit composition is shown in the new 6e books.

By that logic, my Crisis Suits can't have any IC attached because it lists their Unit Composition as "1 Crisis Shas'ui", if I go on a little tangent. That also is the same for my Broadside team "1 Broadside Shas'ui".

Unit Composition now only shows what the minimum squad size is.

Yeah, you're right. I didn't think what I was saying would hold water for long.

 Nilok wrote:

scitech wrote:
I choose the riptide (MC), shoot at it, if it has drones that it bought and they are closer to me they take the hits first.

I choose the riptide (MC), shoot at it, if it was joined by another squad and they are closer to me they take the hits first.

Codex says I can choose the target, brb says who in the squad/group is effected first.

Makes sense to me without all of the syntax,rules lawyering schenannigans.

The codex dose not give you permission to use your twinlinked against infantry. This is the same problem as the Tau Forge World commander who has preferred enemy IC.

The FAQ says he can only use his PE if he uses precision shots on a IC. Which have to hit on 6 to work. Having to make a hit to activate your re-roll to hit on the already hit rolls seems silly, but that's what they said.

I stick by what I say. I chose the monstrous creature, I shot at it, you stuck your infantry in the way as ablative wounds. Give me a break. Codex says choose a mc, not choose a mc if it's by itself. I chose the mc, if you don't want your infantry dying keep them away from the mc.

Well we shall see how it plays out with a new IG codex. However, HIWPI, the Riptide is a JMC unit. The drones act as additional units in all regards, which would count as MC's for the purpose of targetings.

Fragile wrote:
Well we shall see how it plays out with a new IG codex. However, HIWPI, the Riptide is a JMC unit. The drones act as additional units in all regards, which would count as MC's for the purpose of targetings.

There is no such thing as JPMC or MC unit (squad) in 6e. Unit Types are extensions to a model's profile and have no bearing directly on the squad. Being in the squad dose not convey the MC unit type or rules to the drones.

As such, it would be a unit of composed of a (Jet Pack) MC and (Jet Pack) Infantry. Can you target such a unit with "Bring it Down!"?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

scitech wrote:

 Nilok wrote:

scitech wrote:
I choose the riptide (MC), shoot at it, if it has drones that it bought and they are closer to me they take the hits first.

I choose the riptide (MC), shoot at it, if it was joined by another squad and they are closer to me they take the hits first.

Codex says I can choose the target, brb says who in the squad/group is effected first.

Makes sense to me without all of the syntax,rules lawyering schenannigans.

The codex dose not give you permission to use your twinlinked against infantry. This is the same problem as the Tau Forge World commander who has preferred enemy IC.

The FAQ says he can only use his PE if he uses precision shots on a IC. Which have to hit on 6 to work. Having to make a hit to activate your re-roll to hit on the already hit rolls seems silly, but that's what they said.

I stick by what I say. I chose the monstrous creature, I shot at it, you stuck your infantry in the way as ablative wounds. Give me a break. Codex says choose a mc, not choose a mc if it's by itself. I chose the mc, if you don't want your infantry dying keep them away from the mc.

Are you shooting so you will wound infantry? Can you gain twin-linked against infantry with "Bring it Down!"?
Unless you have a special rule that lets you isolate the target from the squad like precision shots, you are still targeting the infantry you can't make use of "Bring it Down!"

You should reread what I posted.

Fragile wrote:
You should reread what I posted.

Counting as part of the unit dose change their unit type. Nothing in the rules permits a model to change its unit type. Nor dose counting as part of a unit change how the composition of the unit is viewed.

At best, it is a Riptide Unit that can be composed of either a Jet Pack Monstrous Creature, or a Jet Pack Monstrous Creature and Jet Pack Infantry.

Fragile wrote:
Well we shall see how it plays out with a new IG codex. However, HIWPI, the Riptide is a JMC unit. The drones act as additional units in all regards, which would count as MC's for the purpose of targetings.

Units oddly enough don't have a unit type, models do.
For a unit to be a unit of MCs all the models in it must have the appropriate unit type.

Wouldn't the drones be considered upgrades to the unit.

 trizzeau wrote:
Wouldn't the drones be considered upgrades to the unit.

Read the codex and read the rest of the thread first, please.

It is a unit of a MC and Inf. ---- Not a unit of a MC or Inf. It should count as both as it has both tags.

You should be able to fire at it w/ bring it down as it is now both.

Where is the permission to remove a tag from the unit?

If you add a IC to that Riptide it will be a unit w/ an Inf., an IC and a MC tag. Shouldn't the unit have all those tags? So if anything affects those tags it could affect the unit? Where is the or you all keeping talking about?

 Mythra wrote:
It is a unit of a MC and Inf. ---- Not a unit of a MC or Inf. It should count as both as it has both tags.

You should be able to fire at it w/ bring it down as it is now both.

Where is the permission to remove a tag from the unit?

If you add a IC to that Riptide it will be a unit w/ an Inf., an IC and a MC tag. Shouldn't the unit have all those tags? So if anything affects those tags it could affect the unit? Where is the or you all keeping talking about?

The problem lies in that fact the unit contains all of those tags and the order "Bring it Down!" only allows you to specify Vehicles (Vehicle Squadrons) or MC (Unit of MCs). "Bring it Down!" dose not give you permission to use "Bring it Down!" against other Unit Types like Infantry or Artillery.

This is much like the Forge World Tau special character Shas'O R'alai. His Warlord Trait is Preferred Enemy: Independent Character. However, even if there is an IC in a unit you are shooting at, you can't make use of re-rolling 1s to hit against the squad and can only re-roll to wound if you Precision Fire the IC.

You can use this ability against an independent character if they are alone or in conjunction with precision fire if the independent character is in a unit.

Yes but it does give you permission to use it vs monstrous creatures.

Tags are inclusive. If your unit has everything in it it counts as everything. Where does it say one tag swallows another?

If we have a Flying MC Inif unit it counts as all those even if 1 model is flying, one is a MC, and one is Inf. You can add tags to unit but never take away.

Where in the rules have you ever seen a tag being deleted from a unit? The more diff. things you add to a unit the more tags it has.

One tag cannot shield a unit for an attack that affects it. Your saying b/c I added inf. to the MC it is now shielded vs any attack that affects MCs? I am say tags stack in a unit.


Edit add: So in army builder what is that unit tagged as only a MC unit or only an inf. unit? It should count as both. I am asking how can you ignore a tag in unit? There is no rule to ignore tags but we see instances of adding tags all the time.

My example would be a Psyocculum. I f a unit has a Psyker in it the unit is tagged as psychic. Now you have a BS 10 to shoot at them. The unit gained the tag. It didn't lose the tag b/c there is only 1 psyker in the unit.

 Mythra wrote:
Yes but it does give you permission to use it vs monstrous creatures.

Tags are inclusive. If your unit has everything in it it counts as everything. Where does it say one tag swallows another?

If we have a Flying MC Inif unit it counts as all those even if 1 model is flying, one is a MC, and one is Inf. You can add tags to unit but never take away.

Where in the rules have you ever seen a tag being deleted from a unit? The more diff. things you add to a unit the more tags it has.

One tag cannot shield a unit for an attack that affects it. Your saying b/c I added inf. to the MC it is now shielded vs any attack that affects MCs? I am say tags stack in a unit.


Edit add: So in army builder what is that unit tagged as only a MC unit or only an inf. unit? It should count as both. I am asking how can you ignore a tag in unit? There is no rule to ignore tags but we see instances of adding tags all the time.

Warhammer 40K has a permissive rule set, meaning, you require expressed permission in order for you to do an action. Contrasted with a restrictive rule set like modern law which could say for instance, "don't break dance on wood," you could still break dance anywhere else.
If you say something along the lines, but doesn't say I can't, you just can't.

Without the expressed permission to target a Infantry unit, or even a mixed MC + Infantry unit with "Bring it Down!", you can't.

On the note of Army Builder. I don't think they can be used as a rules source since they are not related to Games Workshop and only have a partnership with them. I have known from using Army Builder that is sometimes gives me incorrect load outs. While it is rare, it still is just an assistant and can't be taken as fact.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Mythra wrote:
My example would be a Psyocculum. I f a unit has a Psyker in it the unit is tagged as psychic. Now you have a BS 10 to shoot at them. The unit gained the tag. It didn't lose the tag b/c there is only 1 psyker in the unit.

I would have to ask dose the rule say for instance, "A unit containing a Psyker"? Or dose it say, "A unit of Psykers"?

If it was the former, the shooting squad can fire at BS10 to their hearts content. If it was the latter, the unit could not fire at BS10 unless the Psyker was alone, or the whole unit was made of Psyker models.

Here's the thing, the rule says to pick an "MC OR a unit of MCs". It does not say to pick a unit consisting only of MCs, ergo, by permissive ruleset you can still pick the one MC in a mixed unit since it says to pick AN MC.

 Enigwolf wrote:
Here's the thing, the rule says to pick an "MC OR a unit of MCs". It does not say to pick a unit consisting only of MCs, ergo, by permissive ruleset you can still pick the one MC in a mixed unit since it says to pick AN MC.

I believe you are miss interpreting the permissive rule set.
The problem is while you can use it against one MC, it doesn't permit you to target anything else with the shooting attack. A unit consisting only of MCs is the same as a unit of MCs since units (squads) do not have Unit Types, only models have a Unit Type. So in order for there to be "a unit of MCs," it must be "a unit consisting only MCs," otherwise it wouldn't be a unit of MCs anymore.

You are not targeting anything. The rule states to "choose one enemy...monstrous creature (or unit of monstrous creatures)...". It does not state to choose one unit of MC(s). The key is in the first part which tells you to choose an enemy MC. This allows you to choose an MC, independent of whether it is in a mixed unit or not since you are merely choosing an MC much in the same way you'd choose a model in a unit to move while others remain stationary to continue firing heavy weapons at full BS.

 Enigwolf wrote:
You are not targeting anything. The rule states to "choose one enemy...monstrous creature (or unit of monstrous creatures)...". It does not state to choose one unit of MC(s). The key is in the first part which tells you to choose an enemy MC. This allows you to choose an MC, independent of whether it is in a mixed unit or not since you are merely choosing an MC much in the same way you'd choose a model in a unit to move while others remain stationary to continue firing heavy weapons at full BS.

Sorry to say, but it dose say you are targeting the unit in the order. Unless you are saying that this order gains some sort of advanced precision shot rule so it only hits the MC, I don't believe it works in a mixed Unit Types squad.
Underlined for clarity.

If the order is successfully issued, choose one enemy vehicle (or squadron of enemy vehicles) or monstrous creature (or unit of monstrous creatures) visible to the officer. The ordered unit immediately shoots at the nominated target, counting their weapons as twin-linked.

I guess this new edition has given an un intended bump to the IG then. You choose the MC, you shoot at it. Sounds like BID just gave the squad precision shot.

I'm following this line of thought mostly because its a jerk move to hide a MC in a unit of infantry. It flies in the face of RAI not to be able to shoot at the MC because he's belly crawling behind infantry. Trying to do so is low...no pun intended.

If it's against RAI why did GW do it a second time.