So, rebuilding my Nid army and noticed that basically every list people seem to use uses the same basic 5 units, or some variation of them. Those being: Flyrant, Tervigon, Termagant, Hive Guard and the DOOM.

Now I have been playing nids since 3rd (not a grizzled ancient, but been around the block a few times) and I am smart enough to realize when something is very good at either what it does, its cost or both. As well, with the 6th changes to barrage, biovores seem to be becoming a staple as well.

But variety is the spice of life and i thought another go over of the dex was in order.

So here are a few units that I felt in the current meta might be heavily overlooked, and could do considerably well(from HQ, elites, troops, fast, heavy):

Parasite: Heavy deterrent to any outflanking infantry armies, which there are plenty. A bit expensive and T4 definitely is a drawback, but a decent close combat unit) now if rippers were beasts...

Tyranid Prime: Decent close combat ability, decent ranged ability, low cost, and an independent character to give units permanent synapse. Definitely have to give this guy another go.

Deathleaper: With so many psychers around these days, I admit I even heavily overlooked this character. But against those psychers, an instant D3 reduction to leadership without him even being on the board is incredible. Nothin like making that jetseer with laughin god mantle suddenly lD7 and unable to get any powers off. He also has very good close combat ability, namely for challenging, and gained shrouded wwith the faq. Overall not at all a bad unit. Bit pricey, but not bad.

Venomthropes: Now I almost immediately wrote these off as being unnecessary but after a long look at them, they are actually quite good. Especially with tyranid access to endurance, these guys can become extremely irritating. The big mek KFF has been a tried and true piece of wargear for a long time and multiple venomthropes gives the opportunity for a larger footprint. Prime(s) joined to them also make them a decent clos combat unit, and increase their survivability.

Now obviously the biggest problem for the last 2 is that they take up the same space as the doom, hive guard and zoans...

So no assault after outflanking or infiltrating really hurt genestealers, and I have a hard time trying to work out a way to make them useful and not get shot to pieces immediatlely. I did think to myself, well, they can assault the firt turn anyways...why not just stick them in area terrain with infiltrate and go to ground? Could work, but I am not convinced as of yet, will try it though.

Warriors are much better than I ever gave them credit. base 30 pts for a 3W T4 model with decent shooting and great close combat is DAMN GOOD. As well, more and more lists I see in the current meta have far less S8 and far more S7 for fliers, and most of the S8 would be better spent shooting other things like flying tyrants and tervigons. Definitely need to give them another go.

Now, for whatever reason, I very rarely end up taking fast attack choices in any army I play. I dont know why that is, but it just trns out that way. Well after taking another look through fast, I realized that the Harpy is actually a pretty amazing unit. just 160 points for a 4 wound T5 flying monstrous creature, that comes stock with a twin linked S6 large blast, a free upgrade to another S6 large blast and a once per game ability to drop up to 3 addition large blasts. I mean for 160 points you have the possibility of throwing out 5 large blasts in one turn... I will definitely be giving these guys another go, and I know quad guns are a serious problem for them, sure, but endurance can help stem that issue, and if you saturate the field with more monstrous or flying MC, they will likely go unnoticed.

Raveners are also much better than i gave them credit, deep striking multiwound beasts with many attacks, high initiative, can get rending and move through cover... pretty darn good.

Now heavies were interesting. I see biovores more and more and I understand why, I see and use carnifexes, though a bit overpriced double devourer fexes are amazing. I see trygons and mawlocks occasionally, though less and less because they seem to just come in and get vaporized. then comes the tyrannofex. I have always loved the idea of a perfect engine of destruction at range, a living tank solely designed to be a walking support battery. And I thought, yeah it is really expensive, but then...what are you getting for 250 pts? Well I found me convincing myself that what you get is actually pretty darn good. 6 wound T6 MC with a 2+ save, a built in S6 torrent flamer, a secondary S6 large blast, and a regular flame weapon as well(I prefer the wounds on 2+ one myself). Overall, that aint bad and it pretty much gives it the ability to engage any target accept flyers. It also makes it a bad unit to charge with 2 overwatch flame weapons. And with so many things gaining access to some form of cover, any ignore cover weapon is inherently useful. I see myself trying a build with 2 of these stock, running in front of tervigons hitting them with endurance and just charging the enemy.

In any case, those are my opinions, if anyone would care to comment or say that anything I have written has "been said before" or is complete bs, feel free, I wont judge (too much...)

 gameandwatch wrote:

Parasite:
Heavy deterrent to any outflanking infantry armies, which there are plenty. A bit expensive and T4 definitely is a drawback, but a decent close combat unit) now if rippers were beasts...


Tyranid Prime:
Decent close combat ability, decent ranged ability, low cost, and an independent character to give units permanent synapse. Definitely have to give this guy another go.


Deathleaper:
With so many psychers around these days, I admit I even heavily overlooked this character. But against those psychers, an instant D3 reduction to leadership without him even being on the board is incredible. Nothin like making that jetseer with laughin god mantle suddenly lD7 and unable to get any powers off. He also has very good close combat ability, namely for challenging, and gained shrouded wwith the faq. Overall not at all a bad unit. Bit pricey, but not bad.


Venomthropes:
Now I almost immediately wrote these off as being unnecessary but after a long look at them, they are actually quite good. Especially with tyranid access to endurance, these guys can become extremely irritating. The big mek KFF has been a tried and true piece of wargear for a long time and multiple venomthropes gives the opportunity for a larger footprint. Prime(s) joined to them also make them a decent clos combat unit, and increase their survivability.


Now obviously the biggest problem for the last 2 is that they take up the same space as the doom, hive guard and zoans...


Genestealers
So no assault after outflanking or infiltrating really hurt genestealers, and I have a hard time trying to work out a way to make them useful and not get shot to pieces immediatlely. I did think to myself, well, they can assault the firt turn anyways...why not just stick them in area terrain with infiltrate and go to ground? Could work, but I am not convinced as of yet, will try it though.


Warriors
much better than I ever gave them credit. base 30 pts for a 3W T4 model with decent shooting and great close combat is DAMN GOOD. As well, more and more lists I see in the current meta have far less S8 and far more S7 for fliers, and most of the S8 would be better spent shooting other things like flying tyrants and tervigons. Definitely need to give them another go.


Harpy
a pretty amazing unit. just 160 points for a 4 wound T5 flying monstrous creature, that comes stock with a twin linked S6 large blast, a free upgrade to another S6 large blast and a once per game ability to drop up to 3 addition large blasts. I mean for 160 points you have the possibility of throwing out 5 large blasts in one turn... I will definitely be giving these guys another go, and I know quad guns are a serious problem for them, sure, but endurance can help stem that issue, and if you saturate the field with more monstrous or flying MC, they will likely go unnoticed.


Raveners
much better than i gave them credit, deep striking multiwound beasts with many attacks, high initiative, can get rending and move through cover... pretty darn good.


Heavies
I see biovores more and more and I understand why, I see and use carnifexes, though a bit overpriced double devourer fexes are amazing. I see trygons and mawlocks occasionally, though less and less because they seem to just come in and get vaporized. then comes the tyrannofex. I have always loved the idea of a perfect engine of destruction at range, a living tank solely designed to be a walking support battery. And I thought, yeah it is really expensive, but then...what are you getting for 250 pts? Well I found me convincing myself that what you get is actually pretty darn good. 6 wound T6 MC with a 2+ save, a built in S6 torrent flamer, a secondary S6 large blast, and a regular flame weapon as well(I prefer the wounds on 2+ one myself). Overall, that aint bad and it pretty much gives it the ability to engage any target accept flyers. It also makes it a bad unit to charge with 2 overwatch flame weapons. And with so many things gaining access to some form of cover, any ignore cover weapon is inherently useful. I see myself trying a build with 2 of these stock, running in front of tervigons hitting them with endurance and just charging the enemy.

In any case, those are my opinions, if anyone would care to comment or say that anything I have written has "been said before" or is complete bs, feel free, I wont judge (too much...)

Sorry about the large quote but I was having some serious WALLOFTEXT issues and your post seemed to be relatively well thought out and abstract so I wanted to see it in an easier format to discuss.

I am surprised you've mentioned Raveners but not Shrikes or Sky Slashers...gargoyles are common.

I personally run my Parasite with Sky Slashers because they're a cheap bodyguard for him.

I have had immaculate success with LW/BS Shrikes...its 50 points a model on a 5+ save but you have a nearly guaranteed 2nd turn charge they devastates enemy lines. It's ridiculously hard to play but it can be amazing. I made a list with 9 super shrikes and 18 raveners...you either get rolled or you trainwreck the enemy.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I have a lot more input and will get back here as soon as I can put my book in front of my eyes.

And even gameandwatch won't touch Pyrovores, because they are that bad.

I can see an argument for Pyrovore sniping...2 in a pod could land next to a unit and put enough wounds on to remove an important weapon or character. This works well with the new pull from the front rules.

This was amazing at the beginning of 6th with the long fangs everywhere...kill the sergeant...they can't split fire...usually they try to shoot you with missiles...which doubles them out and explodes more long fangs.

Other than that...no no no.

 ductvader wrote:
I can see an argument for Pyrovore sniping...2 in a pod could land next to a unit and put enough wounds on to remove an important weapon or character. This works well with the new pull from the front rules.

This was amazing at the beginning of 6th with the long fangs everywhere...kill the sergeant...they can't split fire...usually they try to shoot you with missiles...which doubles them out and explodes more long fangs.

Other than that...no no no.

And then people found out that shrieking Zoantrhopes could do pretty much the same thing, but better.

 Kain wrote:
And even gameandwatch won't touch Pyrovores, because they are that bad.

QFT to the n'th power

Pyros really are just terrible, now if they had hive guard stats since thy are practically the same model... that would be a different story.

As far as shrikes are concerned that 5+ just kills them for me, bolters mow them down quite easily

Flying rippers are ok, a bit pricey but definitely not terrible, and with parasite are great!

 gameandwatch wrote:

 Kain wrote:
And even gameandwatch won't touch Pyrovores, because they are that bad.

QFT to the n'th power

Pyros really are just terrible, now if they had hive guard stats since thy are practically the same model... that would be a different story.

As far as shrikes are concerned that 5+ just kills them for me, bolters mow them down quite easily

Flying rippers are ok, a bit pricey but definitely not terrible, and with parasite are great!

Pyrovores have Biovore stats since they're based on the same genus.

Hive Guard are somewhat distant cousins to Tyrant guard that traded some armor for a really big gun.

I understand, but considering their role you would think they would have more been another biomorph of the tyrant guard.

It sucks, cause with the guard statline they would absolutely be usable

 gameandwatch wrote:
I understand, but considering their role you would think they would have more been another biomorph of the tyrant guard.

It sucks, cause with the guard statline they would absolutely be usable

Pyroguard then?

That actually sounds pretty boss.

Pyrovore is not basically a Hive Guard, they are a variant on the Biovore. Just like the Hive Guard is a variant on the Tyrant Guard and the Venomthrope on the Zoanthrope, the Tyrannofex on the Carnifex. In terms on chronology from 4th Codex with 5th.



In certain settings such as Cities of Death, or Killteam, they can e good, and charging them should be a bad thing, each packing a Heavy Flamer and ignoring armour saves. 2 things really kill them though.

1- Overcrowded Elite slots. Can't really be helped, there is no other slot. They are not very fast or designed to be, so not FA. HQ and Troop definately not. HS neither.

2- Poor speed and suviability. They explode when IDed, and are not very tough. If they were a bit faster, like a beast for example, this could help and simultaneously solve FOC problems by making them eligible for FA.

3- Poor weapon choice. A heavy Flamer is great but not if the model can never get to use it. Similarly, ignoring armour is excellent in our AP3 Power Weapon world, amd aside MCs and Boneswords we Nids have no real answer to Termies. Pyrovores could theorectically be great to fight GK Termies with, by ignoring the armour, and then exploding when Force Weaponed, or hit by a hammer, with Acid Blood killing those with Halberds, Swords, Staves and Flachions, but they are so slow they are shot to pieces upon arrival.



Suppose just one of those things were fixed. Imagine is they exploded at AP2, or had a higher save. Or were Beasts. They might then be useful

 Deadshot wrote:
we Nids have no real answer to Termies.

What are you talking about?

DROWN THEM IN GANTS!

All joking aside, I do rely on termagants to kill terminators...And to this day a Terminator has never won that assault.

Really? I find that unless I chuck my Megatyrant at them they do not fall unless I hammer them with everything.

My Megatyrant for all interested, is a Footyrant with BS/LW, HVC, Leech Essence and Paroxysm or 2 Biomancy, all the Biomorphes and Armoured shell, with 1-2 Tyrant Guard (1 with Biomancy, 2 with codex powers), Hive Commander to outflank Warriors, Old Adversary and IH.

 ductvader wrote:

 Deadshot wrote:
we Nids have no real answer to Termies.

What are you talking about?

DROWN THEM IN GANTS!

All joking aside, I do rely on termagants to kill terminators...And to this day a Terminator has never won that assault.

Devilgants in a pod can butcher terminators. Or just straight up 30 devilgants.

Ah. I run Borers. And hoof it up board.

The Parasite of Mortrex
My 2nd most used HQ (after Swarmlord) and is rather amazing. Outflanking is starting to become more popular in the past few months and so Parasite is gaining in value. being a fast HQ it means that he usually makes it into the combats he wants to be in while avoiding the combats he knows he'll get punk'd in.

Primes
Amazing character killers...I have two loadouts (LW?BS, Scytals, Regen) and (BS/BS, Scytals, Regen) The BS/BS is only for when he's in units that have their own lash whips...like venomthropes or Lashguard.

Deathleaper
To be used solely for fear tactics, the occassional pheromone trail, and last turn contestation. being able to disappear and reappear anywhere...great tactic. 2 Lictors are arguably a better choice in his place though.

Venomthrope
amazing utility piece, through my experience I have found that fielding a single Venomthrope usually does the job...hidden behind a wall or whatever and pulsing out that cover save. Especially good with MCs...if you're opponent can't kill him until turn 2 or even 3...he's made his points back as a defense multiplier.

I personally think that Hive Guard do too little in game for the praise they recieve. Zoanthropes on the other hand are way underpriced for the utility the gained with book powers. I usually roll for telekine dome...makes tyranids ridiculous. All my other psykers go biomancy though.

Genestealers
...while 6th edition has temporarily reduced the genestealer squad to near worthless...It made the broodlord stronger. A smart player can wreck half an army with a broodlord...I have never lost a broodlord in combat because I know which battles he can and cant win. Taking dual biomancy is risky on him because BS0 means he can't shoot a psychic power but so rewarding if you get iron arm or endurance. Sometimes aura of despair or hypnotic gaze will offer you much more. I have killed a trygon with a broodlord gazing him down. My broodlords often turn into objective campers that are just one more source of passing out endurance.

Warriors
I couldn't have said it better myself and you can kit them however you want for efectiveness...just stay off the venom cannon

Harpy
I have 2 harpies...they used to be in every single game...then High Yield Missile Broadsides came out and the Harpies are waiting for their next book where they get a 3+ armor.

Raveners
I don't think rending is even necessary on these guys...you can drown enemies in wounds with the dual scytals...if anything...take the thorax swarm spine fists (because they dont replace arms) for the same points and a full squad of raveners will put out 36 TL S3 shots and follow up with 45 "TL" S4 attacks (=9.6 dead marines)

Biovores
I understand the "good-ness" but it feels so not tyranid-y...and so they bore me.

Carnifex
I have 15 carnifexes. There are a multitude of different ways to field them effectively TL Devourers should run solo in a pod or in a brood of 2 walking enduranced or telekine domed....3 is overkill and innefficient. You can also put a stock fex in a pod if you simple want a giant distract that can hide behind the pod and scare your opponent for the next turn of retaliation. I personally enjoy running a Stone Crusher Carnifex...the 2+ save goes a long way with regeneration and IWND. (Like Good Old One Eye) But don't get me wrong Old One Eye is the perfect Carnifex to run solo in a list that's light on synapse...his LD8 lending ability goes a lot farther than you'd think. Every time I happen to have Old One Eye in my list I happen to play a different bug player running the Doom...and Old One Smashes his face in. my other favorite fex is Screamer Fexes...stock with Bio Plasma...not too effective but man are they fun when they work.

Trygons
I was never enamored with these. I believe they should start on the board to benefit from the psychic shield the army is presenting.

Tyrannofex
Man do I enjoy a Tyrannofex...in 5th (The land of mech) I ran the rupture cannon and kept onslaught on him...eventually he would end up in my opponents deployment zone still blasting tanks at point blank and then eating the insides...or finishing it off in CC...now...you're right...think of him like a Land Raider Crusader...big, slow, able to take a punishment, and put the hurt on infantry at the same time...only this guy is more durable. A Tyrannofex though, demands at least 2 other MCs on the board to balance out the firepower he's soaking up...My tyrranofex list has 2 of these guys on the flanks walking up the board while swarmlord and 3 lash guard take the middle of the board...and yes...2 tervigons and their min 20 gant broods following him.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Deadshot wrote:
Really? I find that unless I chuck my Megatyrant at them they do not fall unless I hammer them with everything.

My Megatyrant for all interested, is a Footyrant with BS/LW, HVC, Leech Essence and Paroxysm or 2 Biomancy, all the Biomorphes and Armoured shell, with 1-2 Tyrant Guard (1 with Biomancy, 2 with codex powers), Hive Commander to outflank Warriors, Old Adversary and IH.

Dang...that 395 pt beast would hate to meet my 100 pt GK Champion.

I have to be impressed by someone willing to come just 35 points short of the most expensive tyrant available.

I will say though...I think TL Devs or Deathspitter would go farther that the HVC due to the preferred enemy.

Oddly enough, I have had amazing success with hive guard, just being able to stick them completely out of LoS and create a 24" bubble of nasty is pretty sweet, and with the amount of jinking nonsense these days, I like these guys more and more.

Im def giving the tyrannofexes another go, like 1-2 of them, 1-2 tervigons an tyrants of some kind

 Deadshot wrote:
Really? I find that unless I chuck my Megatyrant at them they do not fall unless I hammer them with everything.

My Megatyrant for all interested, is a Footyrant with BS/LW, HVC, Leech Essence and Paroxysm or 2 Biomancy, all the Biomorphes and Armoured shell, with 1-2 Tyrant Guard (1 with Biomancy, 2 with codex powers), Hive Commander to outflank Warriors, Old Adversary and IH.

Please explain the underline.

 Happyjew wrote:

 Deadshot wrote:
Really? I find that unless I chuck my Megatyrant at them they do not fall unless I hammer them with everything.

My Megatyrant for all interested, is a Footyrant with BS/LW, HVC, Leech Essence and Paroxysm or 2 Biomancy, all the Biomorphes and Armoured shell, with 1-2 Tyrant Guard (1 with Biomancy, 2 with codex powers), Hive Commander to outflank Warriors, Old Adversary and IH.

Please explain the underline.

Seems as someone has unlocked psyker tyrant guards? I'm jelly ...

When he takes 1 guard he rolls on biomancy. When he takes 2 guards he keeps codex powers.

What? Since when?

Why? I'm confused. lol

Saythings wrote:
What? Since when?

Why? I'm confused. lol

If you take 1 guard and roll on biomancy, you are aiming for Iron Arm. This allows you to boost your toughness to up to 9 (which is AMAZING btw) and since you have 2 models with varying toughness, you take the highest, which is the iron arm'ed tyrant. It basically allows iron arm to spill onto the guard and gives you 2 more T7-T9 wounds.

If you take 2 guard, iron arm will not spill onto the guard, as the majority toughness with still be 6 (2 models with 6, 1 with more), so iron arm is basically useless, hence why he suggests codex powers when running 2 guard. Frankly, iron arm and 1 guard is typically harder to kill than codex powers and 2 guard....but you run the risk of not getting iron arm, or just plain failing the psychic test.

^^^

Couldn't have put it better myself. Personally I prefer codex powers on my Megatyrant. As good as Iron Arm is, I prefer the traditional walking Tyrant with 3 Tyrant Guard. Plus, I normally run the Swarmlord complete with 4 Biomancy rolls and a Tyrant Guard for the Str/T uppage who I make my warlord. Otherwise my 400pt beast is just asking to be shot.

With three guards, either stick with codex powers or look for other tables. Sadly the two best powers on Telepathy can only be used by the Swarmlord because for some reason he's the only warp charge 2 unit in the entire army.

I don't bother with Telepathy unless it's a Broodlord, in which case I prefer the Hypnotic Gaze for Challenges. Biomancy is simply too good to pass up for Telepathy.

 Deadshot wrote:
I don't bother with Telepathy unless it's a Broodlord, in which case I prefer the Hypnotic Gaze for Challenges. Biomancy is simply too good to pass up for Telepathy.

There's still Telekinesis for the Tyranids if you want a 3 guard Tyrant.

Leech Essence and Paroxysm, to me, are reliable and more effective.

 Deadshot wrote:
Leech Essence and Paroxysm, to me, are reliable and more effective.

Telekine dome stops you from getting shot to death.

Leech Essence repairs damage done while simultaneously inflicting AP2 shots. And is guarneteed. Its just preference really.

 Deadshot wrote:
Leech Essence repairs damage done while simultaneously inflicting AP2 shots. And is guarneteed. Its just preference really.

And then everyone got a better version on the Biomancy table. Which probably indicates that the new Tyranid power tables are going to be quite different.

If it changes at all in the future I would expect it to stay to the Biomancy, Telekinesis, Telepathy nature of things.

Better? I disagree. I'd rather have Leech Essence. Less chance to wound but each wound inflicted recovers 1 wound. The Biomancy 1 only recovers 1 wound regardless of number inflicted.

 ductvader wrote:
If it changes at all in the future I would expect it to stay to the Biomancy, Telekinesis, Telepathy nature of things.

The powers will likely be altered to have minimal overlap with existing rulebook powers or have some sort of unique gimmick to differentiate them from rulebook abilities.

Maybe in the next codex Nid powers won't require a Psychic test or can ignore perils of the warp to symbolise that they get power from the Hive Mind rather than direct Warp Contact? Or they won't be affected by psyker defenses?

Just wishlisting.

 Kain wrote:

And then people found out that shrieking Zoanthropes could do pretty much the same thing, but better.

You really think a unit that has to pass a psychic test, fail a deny the witch test, then hit with BS 3, and costs more is better than a unit that's 2/3 the cost and just comes with a heavy flamer?

The average number of casualties from a Zoanthrope using Psychic Shriek is about half a wound.

 DarknessEternal wrote:

 Kain wrote:

And then people found out that shrieking Zoanthropes could do pretty much the same thing, but better.

You really think a unit that has to pass a psychic test, fail a deny the witch test, then hit with BS 3, and costs more is better than a unit that's 2/3 the cost and just comes with a heavy flamer?

The average number of casualties from a Zoanthrope using Psychic Shriek is about half a wound.

Besides Zoanthropes being being BS3 I agree...I thought they were 4?
Haven't used a psychic shooting attack with them in a long while...

 DarknessEternal wrote:

You really think a unit that has to pass a psychic test, fail a deny the witch test, then hit with BS 3, and costs more is better than a unit that's 2/3 the cost and just comes with a heavy flamer?

The average number of casualties from a Zoanthrope using Psychic Shriek is about half a wound.

You really think a unit that much utility is bad?

I always viewed Zoanthropes as the cheapest way to provided synapse in the codex. The ability to throw them in a pod to have a presence anywhere on the board. With the innate ability to kill AV14 or mass infantry depending on the enemy list or game-type. Talk about tailoring.

No - you continue not using them. While I'll continue winning.

PS - Zoanthropes have BS4.

Yeah Zoans are bs 4, and psychic shriek allows them to engage all targets (which against most infantry, would be 1 wound, since majority infantry are LD 8)

Quick snap question, if something is considered fearless, is it treated as LD10? If so, rulebook page reference please. If not, then a lot of units that count as fearless under certain circumstanses are even easier to wound with the shriek.

No they are not.

Old One Eye is Fearless and LD8

Which is why it's a big deal that Tervigons confer Fearless and their LD10

ignore

 ductvader wrote:
No they are not.

Old One Eye is Fearless and LD8

Which is why it's a big deal that Tervigons confer Fearless and their LD10

This ironically means that shrieking Zoanthropes are best against other Tyranids (along with Guardsmen, Space puppies, and Tau).

 Kain wrote:

 ductvader wrote:
No they are not.

Old One Eye is Fearless and LD8

Which is why it's a big deal that Tervigons confer Fearless and their LD10

This ironically means that shrieking Zoanthropes are best against other Tyranids (along with Guardsmen, Space puppies, and Tau).

I generally find that when that when a codex faces itself they beat the crap out of each other...unless they're both long range armies...then the alpha strike usually wins out.

Where does it say they get their Leadership? The gants would use their own leadership for any tests. They give them fearless because of the Synapse creature rules. Not because they are Tervigons.

I believe Brood Progenitor lends LD10 to termagant units within 6".

I could be wrong...haven't played my bugs since Eldar came out.

It's never affected my games regardless.

Shriek and Doom tear up Termagants, or anything with low Leadership.

Zoanthropes are underused because of how many tests you have to get by in order for them to work, but they bring the most versatility in the codex. Just have to pick the right set-up (Codex/Biomancy/Telekinesis/Telepathy). Everything has it's play, it comes down to practice and list synergy.

Saythings wrote:

 DarknessEternal wrote:

You really think a unit that has to pass a psychic test, fail a deny the witch test, then hit with BS 3, and costs more is better than a unit that's 2/3 the cost and just comes with a heavy flamer?

The average number of casualties from a Zoanthrope using Psychic Shriek is about half a wound.

You really think a unit that much utility is bad?

I said nothing of the sort.

 DarknessEternal wrote:

Saythings wrote:

 DarknessEternal wrote:

You really think a unit that has to pass a psychic test, fail a deny the witch test, then hit with BS 3, and costs more is better than a unit that's 2/3 the cost and just comes with a heavy flamer?

The average number of casualties from a Zoanthrope using Psychic Shriek is about half a wound.

You really think a unit that much utility is bad?

I said nothing of the sort.

No you just went around stating your opinion as incontrovertible fact yet again. Quite rudely in fact.

As someone who doesn't do Tourneys (way too far away to be worth the time), I engage in plenty of soft tailoring (vs Codex rather than list) and shrieker Zoans are quite good for mulching Guard, Tau, and Tyranid forces in my experience. Due to Space Wolves leadership not being up to snuff they're also good there.

What are you babbling about? I said using a Zoanthrope for Psychic Shriek is worse on average than a heavy flamer and is more expensive. That's a fact.

More expensive then what? What could you possibly compare point for point? A zoanthropes optional psychic power set-up versus a squad that had a heavy flamer on it? Are you going to compare the transport necessary to bring the heavy flamer and the remainder of the troops choice to the Zoanthropes with a spod as well?

Such a broad statement to make. Heavy flamer causes more wounds. What about T6 MCs? If they fail a Leadership test they get no saves or no cover saves. Can't say the same for Heavy Flamer with AP4. Or a spread out infantry squad? You only need to touch a single model with the shriek compared to hitting 3-5 models with a template optimistically.

It was Zoanthrope vs Pyrovore.

Zoanthrope still wins. Greatest potiental damage and versatility. Pyrovores can only kill infantry/bikes. They do little to MCs. And almost nothing to vehicles.

 DarknessEternal wrote:
What are you babbling about? I said using a Zoanthrope for Psychic Shriek is worse on average than a heavy flamer and is more expensive. That's a fact.

I'm noting that you are excessively negative and have an utter inability to contribute anything constructive or possess a modicum of politeness, but enough of you.

The Zoanthrope guts low LD armies like the guard, Tau, and other tyranids with just psychic shriek, not to mention the host of other powers it can take that are so central to a good Tyranid list. That is a fact.

The Pyrovore does nothing well and anyone who takes it had better know what they are doing unless they enjoy missing out on Zoanthropes, Venomthropes, the Doom of Malan'tai, Lictors, the Deathleaper, Hive Guard, and Ymgarl Genestealers. All of which can actually do something.

The Pyrovore is terrible and most everyone sane only ever uses it for Biovore proxies.

 Kain wrote:

 DarknessEternal wrote:
What are you babbling about? I said using a Zoanthrope for Psychic Shriek is worse on average than a heavy flamer and is more expensive. That's a fact.

I'm noting that you are excessively negative and have an utter inability to contribute anything constructive or possess a modicum of politeness, but enough of you.

The Zoanthrope guts low LD armies like the guard, Tau, and other tyranids with just psychic shriek, not to mention the host of other powers it can take that are so central to a good Tyranid list. That is a fact.

The Pyrovore does nothing well and anyone who takes it had better know what they are doing unless they enjoy missing out on Zoanthropes, Venomthropes, the Doom of Malan'tai, Lictors, the Deathleaper, Hive Guard, and Ymgarl Genestealers. All of which can actually do something.

The Pyrovore is terrible and most everyone sane only ever uses it for Biovore proxies.

While I agree with your conclusion that pyrovores suck, I think you over estimate how effective psychic shriek really is. Granted, in a zoans vs pyros discussion I'd take zoans every time I still probably wouldn't take zoans over something else.

33 out of 36 chance to pass the psychic test; 91.6%
2 out of 3 chance to hit and we are down to 61.111%
1 in 6 to deny the witch and we are at 50.9% now.

Then we have the LD test. The average roll on 3d6 is 10.5.

LD 7 that's 3.5 dead, halved because of hitting/deny/psy test, so 1.75 dead on average fire warriors/guardsmen
LD 8 is 2.5, or 1.25 after adjustments
LD 9 is 1.5, or 0.75 after adjustments
LD 10 is 0.5, or 0.25 after adjustments

So, your 180 points of zoans (plus 40 for that pod) kills a staggering 47.25 points of fire warriors on the drop, in fact, it would take 4 or 5 turns of firing 3 zoans at fire warriors to balance of their own points cost on average. Off-hand, I think you might do more damage with warp blast if you can manage to get 2-3 models under the blast at a time and catch them without cover. Hell, smite from biomancy might be more damage on average as well.

Potential damage vs average damage is a silly discussion. Sure, your opponent could roll 18 on every LD test (I've see 3 in a row over 15 against the doom personally, it gutted an ork army) but it's not going to happen with the frequency that balance out their points cost. If you are looking for the highest potential damage it's hard to beat basic termigants, or dev gaunts, or grots, or guardsmen, or bolter bannered dark angels...or or or, you get the picture. Having high potential damage isn't amazing when the average damage is poor, as you are leaving the outcome of the game almost entirely in the dice's hands, and while it makes for a "cinematic experience", it's random as hell and it's are too inconsistent for competitive play.

In a game of chance, I'd never rely on averages. Yes, they are just that - averages. Those games where the enemy rolls poorly, the Zoanthropes can easily pay for their points. Even if they don't kill point for point, they generally only go for Troops with low leaderships and killing scoring opportunity is key.

On the other side of the fence, if they roll under average and the enemy passes their leadership, the Zoanthropes still provide Synapse for your army and have Shadows of the Warp. Not to mention, the enemy still has to deal with the zoanthropes. They are W2 infantry with 3+ invulnerable saves. There are two ways of dealing with this, lots of small fire and hopes of getting past all 4-6 wounds (I tend to run 2 Zoans in a pod, not 3). Or using S8+ weapons and instant deathing them. They still get the 3++ and that's less high S weapons shooting at your Tervigons and Tyrants (not to mention Doom that should be in any Nid's list).

If they do survive, they can continue to Shriek and become more of a threat.

I don't really see how even if they cause little damage on average how they aren't extremely strong. (Of course, this is only pointing out when the Zoans get Shriek and not when they keep Codex powers and 1-shot a LR.) They also give you Synapse, Shadows of the Warp, and their presence forces the Enemy's hand and need to be dealt with sooner rather than later.

I personally have had such mixed ( and majority bad) results with the DOOM that I have found him to be wasted points. Now I have had great moments with him, like him zapping a whole strike squad and a dreadknight when he landed, but as a whole my opponents have rolled well enough when he first arrived that he was never within 6 inches to use his ability again.

I like zoans, I really do, but it seems the majority of games lately they have just become expensive meat shields more than anything else. And with tau now becoming popular again, interceptor is a real fear and makes me not want to use them in pods, which seemed that as support units was the only way to wield them.

Elites in the tyranid codex is like heavies in current eldar. Jam packed with good units. After much deliberation, I decided that I am going to use deathleaper, since his leadership reducing is incredible with all of the psychers flooding the scene these days (hello jetseers with laughing god mantle and Lords of Change) and he isnt THAT BAD in combat, and has shrouded/stealth! As well, hive guard just win out for me with everythign else, bs4, no line of site, 2 S8 shots, ignores most cover including jink...I have never had these guyss perform badly.

As far as the whole logic of "units making their points back" I see that as more of a figurative idea than literal, because if a unit of any cost fulfills a key role that wins me the game, I consider that "making its points back"

I believe you! I really do. It's so strange how we can have such opposite sides of the spectrum when it comes to unit performance.

I'd argue my Doom has never failed me. And even in games where he causes zero wounds and I find myself shooting a S4 AP1 template and it scatters off and hits him (followed by d3 wounds from the psychic shooting), I still think he is worth his points. It's 130 points out of 2000. That's less than 1/10 and even if it doesn't take a single wound from the enemy, it effectively alters the enemies entire deployment. Any prenotions he had in his head while coming up and creating his army list is thrown out the window when the Doom is brought into perspective. He's a huge asset.

It intrigues me that you mention how expensive Zoanthropes are. What else in the army can do what they do for that amount of points? What else can bring synapse for that little points? What else can build so much utility that it can successfully tailor to any army list the enemy can bring? Then you bring up the fact that more pskyers are being brought in the current meta? That surprises me that you'd even mention that when you plan on taking out models that provide Shadows of the Warp. Correct me if I'm wrong, but if you deepstrike in Zoans, wouldn't take protect you against Psykers? They have to pass their tests on a 3d6 and on average, they'd fail with a 10.5. Don't forget most psychic tests in 6th as casted at the beginning of the movement phase (before they get a chance to react).

As for Hiveguards, S8 without Melta special rule... Ugh. Don't get me started. Every time I use them I pop a Rhinos or two. Or the offset Chimera that he forgot to face the proper way. They are so weak against AV13+. Don't forget to mention 24" range and AP4 which makes them effective against, well nothing. If you happen to get Hammer and Anvil you might as well pretend they don't exist. If they could purchase pods I'd consider them a threat. If you're going to pop low-AV wouldn't you just consider flying 24" and shooting your Flyrants at them unless they get better targets. Or dropping Carnifexes or Zoans to do the same job. But at least with the other models you have options. Hiveguards only purpose is to kill low-AV transports. Please, please, please don't mention AA with 2 shots each at S8 with AP4.

Generally I find Hive guard underwhelming due to their short range and how easily the Eldar and Tau can kill them (though they do well against their primary vehicles), but Zoans can put a hole in anything and can just do so much.

 Carnage43 wrote:

Saythings wrote:
What? Since when?

Why? I'm confused. lol

If you take 1 guard and roll on biomancy, you are aiming for Iron Arm. This allows you to boost your toughness to up to 9 (which is AMAZING btw) and since you have 2 models with varying toughness, you take the highest, which is the iron arm'ed tyrant. It basically allows iron arm to spill onto the guard and gives you 2 more T7-T9 wounds.

If you take 2 guard, iron arm will not spill onto the guard, as the majority toughness with still be 6 (2 models with 6, 1 with more), so iron arm is basically useless, hence why he suggests codex powers when running 2 guard. Frankly, iron arm and 1 guard is typically harder to kill than codex powers and 2 guard....but you run the risk of not getting iron arm, or just plain failing the psychic test.

This is a pretty neat idea.

I usually run 2 Guard. I roll once on Biomancy, and take Paroxysm from the Codex Powers, because Paroxysm is brilliant and also a fantastic word.

I personally have never found Hive Guard worthwhile.

Also...I rarely find Zoanthropes to be useful for anything more than buffing in this edition...and buffing/debuffing is something they are masterful at. I can't describe how wonderful my zoeys work with objuration mechanicum and telekine dome.

Overwatch ceases to even exist after these powers come into play.

With the constant addition of MCs in new armies...I am finding myself want to experiment with Telepathy just for puppet master.

Doom...will be hit or miss. I cant not take him in a tournament game where I know I will see unbalance or 2+ sv everywhere. But his 120? points tends to be worthwhile

The elites are highly situational, based alone on a lot of the situations you guys have been arguing, I would argue ymgarls are the way to go.

...such is the beauty and frustration of tyranid elites.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 The Shadow wrote:

 Carnage43 wrote:

Saythings wrote:
What? Since when?

Why? I'm confused. lol

If you take 1 guard and roll on biomancy, you are aiming for Iron Arm. This allows you to boost your toughness to up to 9 (which is AMAZING btw) and since you have 2 models with varying toughness, you take the highest, which is the iron arm'ed tyrant. It basically allows iron arm to spill onto the guard and gives you 2 more T7-T9 wounds.

If you take 2 guard, iron arm will not spill onto the guard, as the majority toughness with still be 6 (2 models with 6, 1 with more), so iron arm is basically useless, hence why he suggests codex powers when running 2 guard. Frankly, iron arm and 1 guard is typically harder to kill than codex powers and 2 guard....but you run the risk of not getting iron arm, or just plain failing the psychic test.

This is a pretty neat idea.

I usually run 2 Guard. I roll once on Biomancy, and take Paroxysm from the Codex Powers, because Paroxysm is brilliant and also a fantastic word.

This is illegal, you can't take book and codex powers on the same model.

Harpys are great I used one in my winning throne of skulls list with cluster spines that's 2 large blasts 1 at s6 one at s5 run them close to your flyrant with OA and reroll ur 1s to wound on marines . Works great . Plus again dropping the I by half when you charge makes close by units destroy any thing . Trygons will make a mess of any thing if they have TS and strike first.

Rescinded due to OOPS.

Woah...pyro zoans...I wish that were possible

Yeah... I don't know what is going on, but it seems like a lot of people are playing illegal builds or are not completely familiar with the rules... be sure what you are doing is legal guys...

I havent givin up on zoans, don't get me wrong, but its just rough cause you either take them as decent ranged units, or lose much of their offense for pure synapse/support units. I... I am just not convinced of both yet, and need to test them a lot more.

I am definitely going to try harpies. Quad guns and HYMP broads are anoying, I know this, but considering what they can put out, I want to give them a try.

 gameandwatch wrote:
Yeah... I don't know what is going on, but it seems like a lot of people are playing illegal builds or are not completely familiar with the rules... be sure what you are doing is legal guys...

I havent givin up on zoans, don't get me wrong, but its just rough cause you either take them as decent ranged units, or lose much of their offense for pure synapse/support units. I... I am just not convinced of both yet, and need to test them a lot more.

I am definitely going to try harpies. Quad guns and HYMP broads are anoying, I know this, but considering what they can put out, I want to give them a try.

The advice quality on the boards the last few weeks has been dropping like a rock frankly. I don't know if it's long time players retiring and witless newbies filling the void, or the fact there's very little agreement in what is good or not, or 6th edition being more local meta focused than a more worldwide meta, but half the advice you read now is straight up illegal or awful.

Pyro zoanthropes? Not legal
Paroxym + biomancy tyrant? Not legal
Harpys? Awful
Pyrovores? Awful
Deathleaper? Still poor at best.
There was a huge thread discussing the use of mawlocs to kill tau fire warriors....why are you not just using biovores? Which are like 6 to 8 times better. Mawlocs are just terrible.

What's going on here? It's making me not want to read these boards anymore.

Tyranids are figured out; 2x TL-BL dev winged tyrants, doom, 2 tervigons + gants, biovores. With zoans, HG, gargs to fill out the points. Done. That's all there is to the codex in 6th edition and taking anything else is unwise and sub-optimal.

I disagree that zoans/HG are required.
I like Carnifexes or Trygons instead.

 Carnage43 wrote:
Tyranids are figured out; 2x TL-BL dev winged tyrants, doom, 2 tervigons + gants, biovores. With zoans, HG, gargs to fill out the points. Done. That's all there is to the codex in 6th edition and taking anything else is unwise and sub-optimal.

The moment something has been "figured out" is the moment I stop playing 40k...that's boring.

Tyrants have not been figured out...there are many builds and uses for tyrants.

I welcome discussion.

While many people have posted some very very wrong ideas...people "not agreeing" is a good sign to me.

Honestly I still am not sold on flying tyrants, 6s to hit is great, 3+ save not bad, but fail that one grounding test and the 260? point model is down the drain. Especially with the amount of anti air these days, when you can only have 2 of these, they dont have invuls an 2 is 1/3 a 1500 point list.... I am just not sure they are still the best choice.

I personally have had amazing experience with armored shell tyrants. that 2+ with endurance is just.... so annoying for an opponent. I will always agree that double devourer is the way to go, cant go wrong with 12 S6 twin linked shots... just...so good.

Carnifexes are great in groups of 2, havent deep struck with singles much, but that does sound fun to throw somehthing like that in a back line.

I can see that harpies may have a hard time with plentiful S7 ap4/skyfire, but with 2 tyrants up there as well, likely they will be shot. and between 3 and 5 pie plates in one turn... is pretty damn good

I agree on the 2+ tyrant, and will add in the amazingness of the swarmlord, a flying bonesword tyrant in the new land of riptides, or skipping the tyrant all together and getting more fexes.

 gameandwatch wrote:
Honestly I still am not sold on flying tyrants, 6s to hit is great, 3+ save not bad, but fail that one grounding test and the 260? point model is down the drain. Especially with the amount of anti air these days, when you can only have 2 of these, they dont have invuls an 2 is 1/3 a 1500 point list.... I am just not sure they are still the best choice.

I personally have had amazing experience with armored shell tyrants. that 2+ with endurance is just.... so annoying for an opponent. I will always agree that double devourer is the way to go, cant go wrong with 12 S6 twin linked shots... just...so good.

Carnifexes are great in groups of 2, havent deep struck with singles much, but that does sound fun to throw somehthing like that in a back line.

I can see that harpies may have a hard time with plentiful S7 ap4/skyfire, but with 2 tyrants up there as well, likely they will be shot. and between 3 and 5 pie plates in one turn... is pretty damn good

I use flyrants because otherwise fliers can do whatever they want to my army. Which isn't happy funtimes.

I've never had a game where I couldn't ignore fliers.

Or force them off the board by having too many gants in their movement paths

rigeld2 wrote:
I disagree that zoans/HG are required.
I like Carnifexes or Trygons instead.

My apologies.

"A" Team;

Winged Tyrants, 2xTL-BL Devourers, maybe OA or HC if it provides a solid benefit to your army.
2 Tervigons + 2x10 gants for troops. Tervigons will probably be running with 3 powers, with any other options being largely point fillers (crushing claws, scything talons). Most run AG/TS, but I consider AG optional.
Biovores for smashing infantry. Barrage sniping and cover from the center of the blast makes it amazing for digging stuff out from behind ADLs.
Doom in a pod, because a couple of lucky rolls and he will win you a game.

"B" Team;
Zoans
HG
Ymgarls
TL-BL dev Carnifexes
Gargoyles
Dev gaunts in a pod
Trygons
Foot Tyrants/Swarmlord

"F" Team;
Everything else.

You obviously cannot build a complete army out of the "A" team list, so you have to dip into the "B" team list to some degree and your choices are typically defined by personal preference and/or local meta consideration.

Oh, and Tyranids aren't the only "figured out" army in 6th. Necrons armies are about 95% the same nowadays as well.

I'm glad my 40k gaming ideology isn't so sad.

My games largely depend on how well I play as opposed to how well the internet thinks they can build my list.

Which is the purpose of this thread!

 ductvader wrote:
I've never had a game where I couldn't ignore fliers.

Or force them off the board by having too many gants in their movement paths

Heldrakes+Vendettas=Nothing on the board is safe. The Heldrakes BBQ hordes while the Vendettas pump MCs full of wounds they can't save against.

Or a nightshroud bomber/doom scythe flying in and making my hordes chew on an S10 AP1 large blast/ray of horrible dead and gibbing anything that can be gibbed while the nightscythes fly in and kill anything left.

Or Avenger fighters killing any MC they like in one turn.

Never been an issue...but I do tend to take around 60-90 gants before my tervigons spawn more.

 ductvader wrote:
Never been an issue...but I do tend to take around 60-90 gants before my tervigons spawn more.

Lists I often face consist of maximum vendetta spam and two allied heldrakes in double FOC games with plague marines and guard blobs sneering at me from their objectives while manticores/basilisks and havocs/forgefiends/oblits make the sky rain down upon me. Alternatively, Russ tanks and Predators/Vindicators.

Oh and Chaos termies waiting to teleport down and BBQ something with maximum flamers and Abaddon hiding in METAL BAWKSES to be vomited in my face.

The termies I can deal with, Abaddon is a pain.

dang...tough meta for bugs

And of course the Tau...god damn blueskins and their cover ignoring and cover camping and stupid kroot and annoying riptides and FJDSAKDNZ<DAADLZDNZDA KAIN SMASH!>

There just so much to comment on and so little time.

Why has this threat gotten so cynical?

Just to mention a few things and certainly in no particular order:
Mawlocs can be used instead of Biovores for several reasons against Tau. Some reasons include but are not limited to: Tau don't have force weapons and can't instead death Mawlocs. Tau have infiltrate and outflank and can kill Biovores hiding in the back. Tau contain S8+ Large Blasts (with 72" range) that can instant death Biovores. Mawlocs can be taking in pairs or triplets and can force the Tau to literally spread out and avoid less Support fire. Back off your Mawloc hate and open your mind to more than 1 list.

Pyro zoanthropes? Not legal
Paroxym + biomancy tyrant? Not legal
Harpys? Awful
Pyrovores? Awful
Deathleaper? Still poor at best.

Agreed on all accounts.

As for Heldrakes AND Vendettas in the same army list: feth that. That guy is an donkey-cave. But I will say, still not as bad as you think. Heldrakes can only effectively kill gants or a single wound on MCs. You mentioned Vendettas taking away all armor saves, but I'd still argue that 5+ cover saves in area terrain is one of the easiest things to get into 6th edition. You only need a fraction of the model's base to be touching terrain. Also Iron Arm, Endurance, and Catalyst gives you a lot of room to work with.

Someone mentioned the inclusion of 2+ walking Tyrants. That's fine. I find their lack of mobility disturbing but to each his own. However, they shortly mentioned afterwards that they planned on adding Carnifexes. I hope for your sake you don't leave them out of synapse the following turn or they won't be able to shoot (barring a Ld7 test).

I still believe that Tau's biggest weakness is their lack of high strength weapons. They can give rid of cover save and prevent some of your Armor Saves to some of your MCs, but they have a lot of shots when it comes to those specific weapons. With support fire and all their new tricks, it is a lot harder of a fight with nids but that's when having the ability to bring 7 MCs comes in handy. Add Doom and Zoans in spods into the mix and I'd argue they would have a tough time. Mawlocs come to mind. Mawloc haters! I'd rather bring Dakkafexes because 6th is the edition of shooting, but Mawlocs have their place.

Play style is important. If you practice a list long enough and have sound tactics, I'd argue that most armies can win. Don't go knocking on Nid players when they have different army lists in mind.

 Carnage43 wrote:
Pyro zoanthropes? Not legal

Yea...sorry bout that. I just found that out about 20 minutes ago in the You Make Da Call section. I'll blame my mind on that brainfart. Once you reach a certain age, your mind starts turning in odd directions and you start mixing up FAQ info. Next thing you know, you'll pass me sitting on my porch with my cane and shaking my fists at those young whippersnappers who keep walking on my lawn.

Unyielding Hunger wrote:

 Carnage43 wrote:
Pyro zoanthropes? Not legal

Yea...sorry bout that. I just found that out about 20 minutes ago in the You Make Da Call section. I'll blame my mind on that brainfart. Once you reach a certain age, your mind starts turning in odd directions and you start mixing up FAQ info. Next thing you know, you'll pass me sitting on my porch with my cane and shaking my fists at those young whippersnappers who keep walking on my lawn.

No problem, everyone makes mistakes. I'm just frustrated when I see entire threads filled with mistakes and bad advice.

Saythings wrote:
Mawlocs can be used instead of Biovores for several reasons against Tau. Some reasons include but are not limited to: Tau don't have force weapons and can't instead death Mawlocs. Tau have infiltrate and outflank and can kill Biovores hiding in the back. Tau contain S8+ Large Blasts (with 72" range) that can instant death Biovores. Mawlocs can be taking in pairs or triplets and can force the Tau to literally spread out and avoid less Support fire. Back off your Mawloc hate and open your mind to more than 1 list.

What I do not, and will never get about mawlocs, and the people that support them....you only get 2, MAYBE 3 shots per game out of a mawloc. 170 points for 2-3 shots? That's insane. For what a Mawloc costs you can get 4 biovores. 4 biovores are going to get 20-28 shots off in a game (barring early death). that's 10 times as many templates. Hell, even against the mawloc's optimal target (T4, 2+ save infantry) the biovore pretty much matches it because it has so many more hits. As you get into weaker and weaker troops, the biovore just pulls further and further ahead. Also, biovores pin units, don't need LOS, can fire from turn one, hold back field objectives in big guns never tire, still "behave" when/if they fail synapse...etc.

Biovores should be parked somewhere around mid-board, between your table edge and the edge of your deployment zone, tuck out of LOS in a building somewhere. I've had my biovores die once in 6th, and that was to a deep striking trygon with some lucky rolls.

As for Heldrakes AND Vendettas in the same army list: feth that. That guy is an donkey-cave. But I will say, still not as bad as you think. Heldrakes can only effectively kill gants or a single wound on MCs. You mentioned Vendettas taking away all armor saves, but I'd still argue that 5+ cover saves in area terrain is one of the easiest things to get into 6th edition. You only need a fraction of the model's base to be touching terrain. Also Iron Arm, Endurance, and Catalyst gives you a lot of room to work with.

It's hard to get upset with someone playing by the rules, even if it is kind of a jerk move.

Also, don't discount the damage a drake can do, I had one drop 4 wounds on a trygon in 1 pass (D3+1 S7 vector strike, then a flamer template) that also roasted a handful of guants. MCs are perfect vector strike targets, and they are usually surrounded by something, so the flamer typically does some decent damage as well.

Iron arm and endurance...if you are lucky with your psychic power rolls. My last game against IG I made 8 rolls on the biomancy table across 2 tervigons and a winged tyrant and got zero iron arm and endurance. His vendettas really tore my MCs up pretty bad, even with a 5+ cover save. I REALLY dislike the random psychic power tables. How many Iron arm and endurance rolls you make massively influences the outcome of games, more than anything I've seen in several editions in fact.

 Carnage43 wrote:
What I do not, and will never get about mawlocs, and the people that support them....you only get 2, MAYBE 3 shots per game out of a mawloc. 170 points for 2-3 shots? That's insane. For what a Mawloc costs you can get 4 biovores. 4 biovores are going to get 20-28 shots off in a game (barring early death). that's 10 times as many templates. Hell, even against the mawloc's optimal target (T4, 2+ save infantry) the biovore pretty much matches it because it has so many more hits. As you get into weaker and weaker troops, the biovore just pulls further and further ahead. Also, biovores pin units, don't need LOS, can fire from turn one, hold back field objectives in big guns never tire, still "behave" when/if they fail synapse...etc.

It's most likely a mentality sort of thing. Sure, Biovores can look good on paper, but there are some people, myself included, that like to think "Apex Predator" Running 3 Mawlocs and ramming them down someone's throat turn two with a ton of other deepstriking units do tend to do extremely well. It's one of those "Oh " moments where your enemy suddenly has a ton of problems, and nowhere near enough guns to fix them.

I like how your 4 Biovores are maximized to shoot all their shots every turn. Not including other deepstriking enemies, outflanks, or enemy fast attack threats. Mawlocs aren't meant for their 2-3 "shots" as you referred to them as. They are meant to absorb shots (now that they are in the enemy deployment zone and can hardly be ignored).

Either way, after they get their "shots", they always get to assault whatever target they want with their 3 (to 5 w/ Rage) AP2 attacks (at I4) that can effectively 1-shot any vehicles in the game, instant death any HQ short of Eternal Warriors, or tarpit anything they need to handle for the rest of the game. As much you want to focus on the negatives of Mawlocs and positives of your Biovores, please point out their own weaknesses as well.

I'm appalled that anyone that actually acknowledged the biovores as a threat didn't respond by quickly killing them in the next turn. It doesn't take much to kill them.

As for the Heldrake, thank god you Vector Striked the Mawloc, he did his job once again. I'd gladly take you VS'ing the MAwlocs over the 2 Flyrants and scoring Tervigons that spawn more scoring units. Or the Zoanthopes and Doom of Malan'tai that effectively wipes everything you have on the ground. 3 Vendettas and 1 Heldrake takes quite a few points up and doesn't really put out the damage necessary to effect most MC Nid lists (as compared to other armies).

I never liked rolling for Biomancy on my Tervigons for that reason. I'll take the guaranteed FNP anyday. To be completely honest, I rarely get Iron Arm or Endurance on my Flyrants. I play the board and rely on my Catalysts. Proper positioning, correct target firing, optimal tactics, and playing to the missions (not the player) is generally all it takes to win with Tyranids.

This may be the only thread in which saythings and I are going to agree.

I personally don't think biovores are bad...they are just not "the best"...there is no "the best" in bugs just as there isnt in eldar.

most units are too different to compare.

 Carnage43 wrote:

 Kain wrote:

 DarknessEternal wrote:
What are you babbling about? I said using a Zoanthrope for Psychic Shriek is worse on average than a heavy flamer and is more expensive. That's a fact.

I'm noting that you are excessively negative and have an utter inability to contribute anything constructive or possess a modicum of politeness, but enough of you.

The Zoanthrope guts low LD armies like the guard, Tau, and other tyranids with just psychic shriek, not to mention the host of other powers it can take that are so central to a good Tyranid list. That is a fact.

The Pyrovore does nothing well and anyone who takes it had better know what they are doing unless they enjoy missing out on Zoanthropes, Venomthropes, the Doom of Malan'tai, Lictors, the Deathleaper, Hive Guard, and Ymgarl Genestealers. All of which can actually do something.

The Pyrovore is terrible and most everyone sane only ever uses it for Biovore proxies.

While I agree with your conclusion that pyrovores suck, I think you over estimate how effective psychic shriek really is. Granted, in a zoans vs pyros discussion I'd take zoans every time I still probably wouldn't take zoans over something else.

33 out of 36 chance to pass the psychic test; 91.6%
2 out of 3 chance to hit and we are down to 61.111%
1 in 6 to deny the witch and we are at 50.9% now.

Then we have the LD test. The average roll on 3d6 is 10.5.

LD 7 that's 3.5 dead, halved because of hitting/deny/psy test, so 1.75 dead on average fire warriors/guardsmen
LD 8 is 2.5, or 1.25 after adjustments
LD 9 is 1.5, or 0.75 after adjustments
LD 10 is 0.5, or 0.25 after adjustments

So, your 180 points of zoans (plus 40 for that pod) kills a staggering 47.25 points of fire warriors on the drop, in fact, it would take 4 or 5 turns of firing 3 zoans at fire warriors to balance of their own points cost on average. Off-hand, I think you might do more damage with warp blast if you can manage to get 2-3 models under the blast at a time and catch them without cover. Hell, smite from biomancy might be more damage on average as well.

Potential damage vs average damage is a silly discussion. Sure, your opponent could roll 18 on every LD test (I've see 3 in a row over 15 against the doom personally, it gutted an ork army) but it's not going to happen with the frequency that balance out their points cost. If you are looking for the highest potential damage it's hard to beat basic termigants, or dev gaunts, or grots, or guardsmen, or bolter bannered dark angels...or or or, you get the picture. Having high potential damage isn't amazing when the average damage is poor, as you are leaving the outcome of the game almost entirely in the dice's hands, and while it makes for a "cinematic experience", it's random as hell and it's are too inconsistent for competitive play.

This is wrong.

Due to the distribution of possible results, just looking at the average dice roll on the 3d6, will not give you the actual casualties inflicted.

50.9% chance of it hitting is right, but taking into account all possible die rolls on 3d6 after that, it will kill:

LD7: 1.86 kills
LD8: 1.44 kills
LD9: 1.06 kills
LD10: 0.74 kills

Just looking at the average 10.5 roll totally misses that rolling 18 against LD7 is 11 wounds, but rolling 3 is still just 0.

I'm not really sold on the Armored Shell Tyrant. It's a pretty high premium to pay on him and not that much less than a Flyrant who gives you a whole other world of threat-range.

2+ is nice, but nearly all of the weapons that are taken to tackle MC's are already ap2 anyways.

Someone on this board said that Nids win their games in the movement phase and I totally agree with this, with the caveat that Nids have many units that other armies do NOT want to tangle with in CC.

That said I feel that if you're paying for a Armored Tyrant you may as well just take the Swarmlord for the swiss-army knife of powers/abilities that he brings.

 More Dakka wrote:
Someone on this board said that Nids win their games in the movement phase and I totally agree with this, with the caveat that Nids have many units that other armies do NOT want to tangle with in CC.

That said I feel that if you're paying for a Armored Tyrant you may as well just take the Swarmlord for the swiss-army knife of powers/abilities that he brings.

Thanks!

But I also see the 2+ shell as being very powerful against the right enemies. Many Tau and MEQ players are actualy lacking in the AP2 range. Tau and DA in particular can play the AP2 spam when they want of course. But combined with some psychic choir a 2+ on T6 becomes increasingly more durable. It's one of those things you have to play to see the effect of.

@ductvader; You mentioned that Tau and MEQ are lacking AP2 range, but what are you arming the Armoured Tyrants with. With that statement I'm assuming it's not the TL Devourers or they wouldn't even pose a threat until they are much, much closer to the enemy army. And if you're equipping them with the other "options" (if I dare speak of them as such), you might as well save the points and get those weapons on a cheaper model. Large Blasts from the Biovores almost replicate those weapons, give or take.

Oh yes...I presumed that being in close range to AP2 already meant I was munching on the enemy's remains...

Or so it usually goes.

And no no no I would never put one of the blast options on a tyrant

What is the point of taking the Armored Shell then? lol

Saythings wrote:
What is the point of taking the Armored Shell then? lol

Getting stuck into melee of course. HVCs and Stranglethorns are garbage on Tyrants and Carnifexes.

Really my best Nid list is

HQs:
Swarmlord with either
1 tyrant guard
or
1 Tyranid Prime

Flyrants cost too much and seem to die too easily for me. Plus the Swarmlord is just an absolute powerhouse. i do use one in tournaments that are 2.5k or higher.

Elites:
2x units of 2-venomthropes for cover saves for whole army
Doom in a pod (because well its awesome)

Troops
3x tervigons. rolling on telep or telek for two powers each
3x termagants. upgraded to fleshborers (least i think thats what theyre called i dont have the book in front of me)

Fast attack
nada.

heavy support
Stonecrusher carifex-cheesy? yes it is. also legal. if not allowed at your store/tournement then take normal ones in groups of 3. run tervigons behind with biomancy to buff the group and laugh as the very scary bullet shield does its thing. run with whatever load out you like. i go with scary scythes and claws because it looks nastier and its truly funny to use. because by all rights it should be a huge points waste. works for me though.

tyranofex-ill bring it back every now and then. i painted him might as well use him. st10 shot youd think would kill more vehicles. too bad he never hits anything.

so its slightly different than the norm. but not really. theres not a whole lot of viable options that work competitvely. so people do get stuck using the same units. now for fun lists are awesome! lots of shenanigans you can do with nids there.

Why is your Tyrant stuck in combat? If he's maximizing his 18" range on his devourers and kites, he shouldn't be in CC (short of getting charged by Fast Attacks).

If that's what you're worried about, why wouldn't simply put wings on him and avoid CC altogether? I never understood Armored Shells unless you planned on using them as Gun Platforms anyhow and use can do the same with wings. But their -1 Save would be made up for with their "Hard to Hit" flying rules.

I don't understand what you mean stuck in combat?

My tyrants tend to win combat...move...win combat...move

I don't often take a normal tyrant...my loadout tends to be swarmy or dakkaflyrant or cc flyrant

My problem with relying on hard to hit, is that as soon as they get any hits through, and you fail the grounded test (which can cause more wounds) that hive tyrant is going to disappear. As well with minimum movement speed while swooping, they seem to always be out of tervigon endurance range.

Don't get me wrong, I love the mobility that tyrant is capable of. I simply second the motion of "trying" the 2+ tyrant before knocking it. I have used it time and time again, and it weathers RIDICULOUS damage. and man oh man, if he gets Iron arm?

I actually disagree that most of what people are using to kill monstrous creatures are ap 2. 90% of that fire that I run into is either mass strength 7 fire, or ap3 rockets of some sort.

Ill try the flying tyrant more, and do a strict comparison of the 2. But yeah, I never take tyrants without double devourers, they are just the bees knees.

Saythings wrote:
Why is your Tyrant stuck in combat? If he's maximizing his 18" range on his devourers and kites, he shouldn't be in CC (short of getting charged by Fast Attacks).

If that's what you're worried about, why wouldn't simply put wings on him and avoid CC altogether? I never understood Armored Shells unless you planned on using them as Gun Platforms anyhow and use can do the same with wings. But their -1 Save would be made up for with their "Hard to Hit" flying rules.

...Getting "stuck in" is a colloquial British term for getting right into the thick of things.

Shellrants should be kitted out for melee, and not be saddled with crappy blast weapons.

Daft Yanks...


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 gameandwatch wrote:
My problem with relying on hard to hit, is that as soon as they get any hits through, and you fail the grounded test (which can cause more wounds) that hive tyrant is going to disappear. As well with minimum movement speed while swooping, they seem to always be out of tervigon endurance range.

Don't get me wrong, I love the mobility that tyrant is capable of. I simply second the motion of "trying" the 2+ tyrant before knocking it. I have used it time and time again, and it weathers RIDICULOUS damage. and man oh man, if he gets Iron arm?

I actually disagree that most of what people are using to kill monstrous creatures are ap 2. 90% of that fire that I run into is either mass strength 7 fire, or ap3 rockets of some sort.

Ill try the flying tyrant more, and do a strict comparison of the 2. But yeah, I never take tyrants without double devourers, they are just the bees knees.

Devourer Flyrants are also the only semi-efficient source of AA in the entire book. Otherwise Vultures, Vendettas, Barracuddas, Doom Scythes, Night Scythes, Heldrakes, Dakkajets, Fighta Bommaz, Nightwings, Storm Ravens and Night Shroud Bombers can do whatever they like to you.

Being able to kill them also is handy in killpoints games, as otherwise those would be points you'd never get.

So mean Kain! lol.

The flyrants require a fair amount of finesse but they can be extremely reliable. Use LOS to protect them if they do get grounded. I usually always fly them over Ruins or terrain that blocks complete LoS to the majority of the enemy model. Only giving LoS to the models I'm targeting. Gliding or Swooping, FMCs get cover saves if they are in Area Terrain. It's a silly oversight but the rules are clear about models in area terrain. Being a MC and not a vehicles, he only needs his base in terrain.

It's a tough balancing act between Biomancy Psychic powers, Catalyst, Gliding/Swooping, Terrain hopping, synapse range checks, and LoS'ing AP3 or better weapons. It's not easy, but worth it for the mobility. Shellrants, look mum I learned a new phrase, are a lot more forgiving or tactical errors.

One thing I have to say about bugs...there's many more viable units in this book compared to a lot of books.

 ductvader wrote:
One thing I have to say about bugs...there's many more viable units in this book compared to a lot of books.

The Internal balance is still atrocious and I'm of the opinion that Cruddace should be eaten alive by rippers.

At least then we'd have a use for rippers.

 ductvader wrote:
At least then we'd have a use for rippers.

And Skyslashers find a way to be even worse. More expensive rippers that can't even take cover as well.

Yay?

I actually make great use of my sky slashers in my "Parasite" list

 ductvader wrote:
I actually make great use of my sky slashers in my "Parasite" list

I run into burnaboyz or d-scythe wraithguard and die horribly.

And no I can't avoid them because the moment they know they're facing my bugs they bring them out and kill everything.

Stupid AP2 flamers.

Who's kitting their list against you?

Uncool.

I haven't played against an enemy who runs flamers in months...it's pretty much IG only for me. Also been seeing a lot less blasts lately.

 ductvader wrote:
Who's kitting their list against you?

Uncool.

I haven't played against an enemy who runs flamers in months...it's pretty much IG only for me. Also been seeing a lot less blasts lately.

The general rule where I play (either at my, a friend's house, or if I have the time a gaming store) is "feel free to tailor towards a codex" and those Burnaz and Wraiths sure do tailor nicely against Green tide, Scuttling Swarm, Ravening cultist, and Marching boots lists.

I know this thread shifted a bit, but thanks for all the info. When I bought my nids, I bought my units based pretty much on the only competative builds that i could find. I have really been looking to add some flavor to the bugs but you don't find much like this past the general builds.

Here are the models I have
1 Swarmlord w guard( he is custom and I bought it only because I like him, don't really use him)
2 Flyrants mags for weapon change outs
3 Hiveguard
2x Zoans
1 Doom
2 Spores
2 tervigons
40 gants
20 gargoyles
2 trygons ( prime or regular)
2 biovores

I think there are a few places you could definitely add flavor

For assault

Raveners, Hormagaunts, Ymgarl Genestealers

For Shooting

Carnifexes, maybe Harpies, Tyrranofex, and for infantry Raveners with Spinefists are mean, not to mention devilgants

2x Dual dev fexes have been simply amazing for me.. Esp w/ Enfeeble and/or Onslaught (I tend to keep 1 Tervigon with book powers).

Awesome sauce against all the Daemon/Necrons currently flooding the scene. 48 chances to get 6's vs fliers. (brood of 2). Also wrecks infantry and provides good counter assault.

Biovores have been great for me against the heap of Xenos/infantry heavy armies.

Zoeys are perfect for that backfield synapse you need when/if your monsters start disappearing. They also allow you to be more aggressive with said monsters. Nice bit of utility with Telekinesis/Telepathy/Bio/codex. Knowing when to roll what takes practice.

Harpies could be good. If only they were 3+, or s6, or a3. :(

Doom doesn't impress me. He simply doesn't do anything vs. Good players. Hes a noob killer.. Not something I really NEED.

I think I'm going to pull the doom or hiveguard and try a group of Ymgarl Genestealers first.. I have been seeing them pop up a lot in bat reps and they seems like they are a fun unit.

They're glorious in a world of no one can assault out of reserves.

My usage of them has made me start urging MEQ players to use Vanguard.

Doom doesn't impress you?!

I suppose only noobs fail Leadership tests... ^.^

Only noobs leave doom sized holes in their deployment. Forcing a LD check on a single unit killing 2-4 models isn't really amazing.

Against a lot of other armies he doesn't do a darn thing. Flying Circus, Necrons, Mech Eldar.

He could be good against Tau if interceptor didn't exist..

With the most recent FAQ stating any unit disembarking from a spod can move 6" inches, it isn't hard to fit a single model into a gunline. You don't even necessarily need a hole, you can just sit in front of the gunline and almost guarantee 2 units getting hit with the 6" leeway. Don't forget, if you have the 2 Flyrants on the field turn one, you can always dakka a hole. Yes, they can fill it with more bodies but if you wipe the majority of a squad it's hard to do that. 24 shots of TL-S6 shots adds up fast.

I'd argue with perfect enemy deployment, you'd always manage to find some kind of weakness. If they spread out so much and you can only hit 1 squad, then Doom did his job already and now the enemy army is spread out so much, you can drop (the rest of your army) on 1-side of the table and deal with half of his army at a time.

Killing 2-4 models doesn't seem like a lot, but now that Doom has a S6-8 Large Blast Template with AP1. That can do some serious work as well.

The good thing about interceptor is it only happens once. If you want to intercept and shoot all your S8+ weapons at my Doom (that has a chance of saving with his 3+ invulnerable save) be my guest. That's less shots you get during your turn and less shots my two Flyrants, 3 Carnifexes, and 2 Zoanthropes will take.

I'm simply pointing out, noob or not, Doom will do his job. He's only 130 points. Whether, he dies during interceptor, lands and survives one turn, or does his job perfectly and wipes out half of the enemy army; Doom does what he's design to do. Terrorize, distract, and soak up shoots. Any damage he causes is a bonus.

I like the doom but he isn't as consistant as I would like. Scatter dice hate my guts... last few games he scattered so far off that I didn't even get to use him... ( since they killed him before he got close enough to do anything.

The Hiveguard have been really rolling poor for me. I hear good things from some folks so I keep plugging them in there. I myself have not one game were they have done me any good.

I'll likely drop the HG for the first test.

I added HGs to my first couple lists in 6th cause of all the buzz they got in 5th. But after a few games, I left them out permanently and added Zoans. They can be hit or miss, but when they do hit, they typically pen and explode on a 4+. So strong.

My Tyranid army was designed to make the most of the psychic rules and is currently undefeated (thats allot less impressive once I tell you I've only played three games, but I won all of them rather brutally)

3 Minimum sized genestealer squads with brood lords, awesome in general but especially against chaos who HAVE to challenge you and then get annihilated. Broodlords are so good that I have had my entire genestealer brood die on its way to the target only to have broodlord wipe an entire assault focused csm squad

3 zoanthropes, these guys are like missile launchers, only way better and unusually survivable

and then tervigons and a swarm lord, but those guys are commonly used.

My armies biggest problem currently is air, unless I get that telekinesis power that screws over vehicles (cant remember what its called) im kinda dead there.

I still miss carnifexes though (currently using them as tervigons because screw GW for making a pricy model useless), I really hope they get buffed in the next edition

Mind you, I never said Doom was useless. I'd just rather spend the 130 points on another unit which will perform with more consistency.

From what I stated above, I'd argue that Doom is very consistent. Just not in the way that people expect him to be. He may not cause wounds but he always altars the game's outcome.

But Spores arguably do that for a fraction of the cost and without giving up 2 KP

 ductvader wrote:
But Spores arguably do that for a fraction of the cost and without giving up 2 KP

Doom can kill things and wreck face with Cataclysm, Spore Mines when not fired by Biovores...can't...

That's not what I said.

I said they could alter deployment and therefore the game.

 ductvader wrote:
That's not what I said.

I said they could alter deployment and therefore the game.

Well they can, but I prefer gargs in my FA slots and Doom in a can goes well with a podding Zoan and Devilgant assault.

Quick question: Is there a single FW unit for Nids thats worth considering (non Apoc of course). I've seen Stone crushers get mentioned on here a little bit, I'm guessing they're in the Anphelion project IA from way way back? If not, where are the rules?

 jifel wrote:
Quick question: Is there a single FW unit for Nids thats worth considering (non Apoc of course). I've seen Stone crushers get mentioned on here a little bit, I'm guessing they're in the Anphelion project IA from way way back? If not, where are the rules?

They're actually much newer than that.

They're 2+ Crushing claws carnifex with regeneration that rerolls ones and -1 attack, but they get AP1 out of the deal and are actually cheaper than crushing claws fexes with regen by a good deal. They also have some special rules that only apply in certain scenarios and specialist games that nobody cares about but they're cheaper than vanilla crushing claws regen fexes so it's not like paying for them means anything.

You can find them in IA;A 2e.

Why would you mention Spore Mines and kill points in the same sentence? If you honestly think Spore Mines affect deployment, go for it, but they are a kill point each. So not only do you end up giving the enemy more kill points but they might not even wound anything.

What a strange thought... lol.

 jifel wrote:
Quick question: Is there a single FW unit for Nids thats worth considering (non Apoc of course). I've seen Stone crushers get mentioned on here a little bit, I'm guessing they're in the Anphelion project IA from way way back? If not, where are the rules?

Nids have 3 40k approved FW units;

The Stone Crusher Carnifex, which you already mentioned.

The Meiotic Spore Mine. Costing as much as shrikes, they deep strike unlike spore mines individually after the game begins as per normal reserve rolls. They blow up in an ap3 large blast and drop d6 -2 normal spore mines afterwards. 1-3 make up 1 fast attack choice and do not need to be in unit coherency.

And the Malanthrope. Dirt cheap 4w mc costing 50 clams less than a tervigon. statline of a harpy with more attacks, free regen, toxic miasma, fleet, and a neat special rule that gives PE to anything in synapse towards whatever unit type it just killed in close combat. 1-3 is an hq choice. Beautiful model with human faces pressing to get out of its digestion sacs.

Meiotic spores also have S5. MEQs don't like them very much.

Nice discussion... seeing the same list over and over put me off nids a bit. I hope to be able to run some more interesting variants, like you're trying to figure out

Cyaneye wrote:

 jifel wrote:
Quick question: Is there a single FW unit for Nids thats worth considering (non Apoc of course). I've seen Stone crushers get mentioned on here a little bit, I'm guessing they're in the Anphelion project IA from way way back? If not, where are the rules?

Nids have 3 40k approved FW units;

The Stone Crusher Carnifex, which you already mentioned.

The Meiotic Spore Mine. Costing as much as shrikes, they deep strike unlike spore mines individually after the game begins as per normal reserve rolls. They blow up in an ap3 large blast and drop d6 -2 normal spore mines afterwards. 1-3 make up 1 fast attack choice and do not need to be in unit coherency.

And the Malanthrope. Dirt cheap 4w mc costing 50 clams less than a tervigon. statline of a harpy with more attacks, free regen, toxic miasma, fleet, and a neat special rule that gives PE to anything in synapse towards whatever unit type it just killed in close combat. 1-3 is an hq choice. Beautiful model with human faces pressing to get out of its digestion sacs.

And about how many gants does a Stonecrusher cost? I'm seeing a bit of potential there.

Iirc exactly 40.

The potential isn't there IMO.

rigeld2 wrote:
Iirc exactly 40.

The potential isn't there IMO.

They are a viable alternative to Trygons, although most prefer biovores over melee MCs these days.

I believe Ductvader pointed it out: There are a lot of lists that Nids can win with.

Whether you're going for WAAC, Very-Competitive, Competitive, Fun-But-Has-A-Chance, All-Fun, or Fluffy is completely up to you. I'd argue that WAAC lists (as well as their rule sniping attitude) follows a specific army composition. The two forms of competitive lists always include 2 Flyrants, 2 Tervigons, Doom, and Heavies of your choice. There are other versions of course, but most include the ones previously listed. And of cours, the fun and fluffy lists are always an option. Those lists can win a majority of the time as well, if played to its fullest potential.

That's two times a week I agreed with Ductvader. I might be getting soft. But he has a point this time: Nids have a lot of different units that can be used. They might not be optimal but there are quite a few valid units. (P.S.-Sky-slashers are terrible and you should feel terrible)

Hormagaunts are underused, in my opinion. If your takimg Swarmlord as an HQ, you can take Hormagaunts with Toxin Sacs instead of Gargoyles. Fast as freak with more attacks and scoring. Use Swarmy to give em FC or PE.

I've been playing this with a lot of success. The only real underused unit is the Carnifex brood, though.

2 Flyrants, Dual Devs
2 Tervigons, Sacs, Glands, Talons, 3 Powers
2x 10 Gaunts
2 Zoanthropes
15 Gargoyles, Sacs, Glands
2 Carnifex, Dual Devs
2x 2 Biovores

I've thought about taking out the Biovores for Harpies.. They look good on paper, at least. And I like monsters, cause theyre fun.

 ductvader wrote:
At least then we'd have a use for rippers.

My rippers ate an enemy Carnifex once, so they do have some use :p Granted that Carnifex had been whittled down to 1 wound before but still.

Baktru wrote:

 ductvader wrote:
At least then we'd have a use for rippers.

My rippers ate an enemy Carnifex once, so they do have some use :p Granted that Carnifex had been whittled down to 1 wound before but still.

My "friend" used to play an all bloodcrusher list in 5th with skulltaker and many heralds...the list was ungodly then...so I decided to have some fun with him and take an all poison ripper army.

annihilated those stupid 2 wound 3+/5+ EW jerks



Also, I use the Stone Crusher often, Old One Eye can be used for a Stone Crusher as he has crushing claws and scything talons. Stone Crushing is AP1, has regeneration and it will not die...on top of a 2+...for 195 points. Unfortunately...his BS is one lower than the average Carnifex...so there's that. Oh, and they cannot take a pod and the can only be a brood of one.

But, the Stone Crusher plays well alongside dakkafexes...it gives you one of those...whatever you dont shoot will kill you feelings.

I still want to buy the stonecrusher carnifex model from FW but for now i just made do with what comes in the carnifex box and some extra bits and such glued on.

The wrecking ball looks amazing, though it can be difficult to place at some moments.

Saythings wrote:
Why would you mention Spore Mines and kill points in the same sentence? If you honestly think Spore Mines affect deployment, go for it, but they are a kill point each. So not only do you end up giving the enemy more kill points but they might not even wound anything.

This is incorrect. The Living Bomb rule (pg 48) specifically states that Spore Mines are ignored for any and all mission purposes (Kill Points, First Blood, etc.). Still probably not the best use of points given how easily they are neutralized, but not non-functional.

Well played good sir, could have sworn that got changed in a FAQ. But after some interwebz searching I could not find anything.

I still think Biovores aren't worth it. There are simple better models that the Nids have access to.

Saythings wrote:
Well played good sir, could have sworn that got changed in a FAQ. But after some interwebz searching I could not find anything.

I still think Biovores aren't worth it. There are simple better models that the Nids have access to.

Biovores are great for killing ADL camping pansies like the Tau.

Tau....TAU.....TTTTTAAAAAAUUUUU!!!!!

Saythings wrote:
Why would you mention Spore Mines and kill points in the same sentence? If you honestly think Spore Mines affect deployment, go for it, but they are a kill point each. So not only do you end up giving the enemy more kill points but they might not even wound anything.

What a strange thought... lol.

They do not give VP in any case. They are always ignored for mission objectives (including Purge the Alien, The scouring, scoring in the scouring, First Blood and Linebreaker).

Im planning to create a list based on getting to the enemy really freaking quick. I thinking of having 6 Raveners and a Harpy, plus 2 Flyrants (2x TL Dev of course).

I just bought 6 crappy warriors on ebay which im going to turn into Shrikes with 2x BS. So thats my 3 FA maxed out. Then ill add 2 broods of 20 Hormagaunts with TS, and a small brood of Stealers with a Broodlord to Infiltrate. For Elites ill take Deathleaper (because I love the model and ive never tried him) just for kicks and a unit of Ymgarls.

Points wise Ill just see how it stacks up, but I think around 2000 is do-able with a little brood trimming. This list is mainly just to use a lot of models I havent used before or dont often use. Plus I think itll be fun.

 Deadshot wrote:

They do not give VP in any case. They are always ignored for mission objectives (including Purge the Alien, The scouring, scoring in the scouring, First Blood and Linebreaker).

I've been corrected twice in the same post. No less than 3 posts away even...

Well played good sir. Well played.

Sorry, I was a page behind

 HerbaciousT wrote:

I just bought 6 crappy warriors on ebay which im going to turn into Shrikes with 2x BS.

I kitted my Shrikes with LW/BS

Very difficult to play but very very fruitful to the more intelligent players.

They definitely need a lot of support and other threat vectors for their high cost?

Played a game recently, gave stock t-fexes a try, and MAN are they fun. I do really wish they could take spore pods, but with endurance, 2 of them is just a fun silly time. My opponent had a hell of a time trying to take them down and with double flamers or torrent flamer and large blast, they were roastin dudes left and right. Honestly, felt like I had two godzillas marchin up radiation breathing everything.

Deathleaper didnt have too much of a target for his LD drop, was playin necrons so I just targeted imhotep, though he did take out an annihilation barge when he arrived which was awesome.

once again faced an army that doom was not meant to fight, he just kinda wandered never really in range of anything.

used support zoans for the first time in a long time and had a blast with them, managed to snag enfeeble and endurance in the squad AND iron arm on the third.

I liked the flyrant to a point, but it seemed like I couldnt make a 3+ to save my life! I only made 3 fnp's and he just died in one turn of lucky rolls to annihilation barges.

In any case, fun game and got to use some units I have been dieing to try

Ooooooooooo....

Play Screamer Fexes...Stock with just a Bio Plasma upgrade.

Even more fun and even more radiation breathing feeling.

I always get a similar feel when I onslaught dual tyrranofexes with rupture cannons...moving, running, and shooting tanks in the first few turns...then just moving and dual templating infantry before assaulting later in the game.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
They pair really well with the Swarmlord and dual tervigons

 ductvader wrote:
Ooooooooooo....

Play Screamer Fexes...Stock with just a Bio Plasma upgrade.

Even more fun and even more radiation breathing feeling.

I always get a similar feel when I onslaught dual tyrranofexes with rupture cannons...moving, running, and shooting tanks in the first few turns...then just moving and dual templating infantry before assaulting later in the game.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
They pair really well with the Swarmlord and dual tervigons

But Stonecrushers give you more bang for the buck, and are much better at soaking up the wounds that will be dumped onto them.

Undoubtedly...that's why I have two...unfortunately not everyone allows IA and they can't be taken in broods...Endurance on a Brood of 2 can go farther than a single Crusher...more points of course...it all just depends on what you want to accomplish.

 ductvader wrote:
Undoubtedly...that's why I have two...unfortunately not everyone allows IA and they can't be taken in broods...Endurance on a Brood of 2 can go farther than a single Crusher...more points of course...it all just depends on what you want to accomplish.

Has anyone run the numbers on two Fexes with endurance vs a Single stonecrusher with endurance? Taking it's own version of IWND into account?

Sorry, just gotta say... great thread!

We run a single flyrant list 'cos we're bored with the oblgatory two flyrant (drew last night against a super-competitive Tau-Space Wolves list)... maybe we need something even more different...time to start looking for more Zoeys on eBay maybe...

Way back to the OP, I have found a few tricks with infiltrating genestealers.

Version 1) You need a fast synapse for (flyrant, shrike, PoM) and some area terrain to inflitratr in to that is about at the end of the synapse movement range + synapse range. Thanks to the FAQ on Fearless cancelling GtG, if you go second have the genestealers eat dirt, then pop the synapse in to range on your turn, they jump up and can move and assault like normal.

Version 2) Need a broodlord or Zoe with the TP power that grants fearless, then do the same as above. But you can inflitrate much deeper in to enemy territory.

I may be missing something in Barnowl's explaination, but at the start of Movement you do the IB tests. On the turn a unit comes out of reserves, they by pass this test. So you're suggesting coming out of reserves Turn2, and then purposely making sure they are out of it. Then on Turn3, moving into synapse? But by that point they would have already failed it?

Or Turn3, you move forward with the synapse to avoid overwatch morale tests? I'm just confused to why you're worried about L10 genestealers that automatically pass IB. Leadership 10 is great, making sure you're fearless for an overwatch Leadership test seems steep.

I might be missing something. Seems like a lot of work for 6+ Cover Save, or 4+ in Area Terrain. I feel like Genestealers are weak because they take until Turn3 to actively participate in the battle. Ymgarl genestealers ARE viable because of assaulting out of reserves. But then you run into the situation where you don't need Synapse the turn you come on.

It sounded like you infiltrate and go to ground outside of synapse. Then during the movement phase move synapse up to make them immediately stand up. And move/charge turn 2 after having at least 1-2 turns of more reliable cover....probably a 4+

I'd need my book to check that.

You can go to ground without a cause? I think you'd have to get shot at to GtG, I could be wrong. Or did you mean, GtG at the bottom of Turn1, and on your Turn2 (top) you'd be out of it still... Still confused

You're thinking as soon as your Flyrants (or other synapse) moves within 6" of your Stealers, you'd get Fearless and automatically stand up on Turn2, even though you were outside of 6" during IB tests? Hmm. Interesting.

Yeah you can just choose to go to ground as long as you aren't fearless...is basically voluntary pinning.

IG do it all the time with the get back in the fight order.

Saythings wrote:
You can go to ground without a cause? I think you'd have to get shot at to GtG, I could be wrong. Or did you mean, GtG at the bottom of Turn1, and on your Turn2 (top) you'd be out of it still... Still confused

You're thinking as soon as your Flyrants (or other synapse) moves within 6" of your Stealers, you'd get Fearless and automatically stand up on Turn2, even though you were outside of 6" during IB tests? Hmm. Interesting.

First, synapse is 12", not 6".

Second, yes becoming fearless from synapse is independent of the timing on IB. The Tyranid FAQ does make it clear that IB tests are taken and determined based on the start of the movement phase but there's no such restriction on fearless and ignoring GtG. From the rulebook FAQ:

"Q: If a unit has the Fearless special rule applied to them while they
have Gone to Ground, are the effects of Gone to Ground immediately
cancelled (for example, if this were to occur at the start of their turn
could those units then move, shoot etc. as normal in the appropriate
phases?) (p35)
A: Yes."

So what barn owl is proposing is legit and useful.

And yes, what he was saying was your stealers are getting roughed up from shooting turn 1 (due to infiltraing and possibly moving and running close to the enemy but in cover) they can go to ground for the improved cover save. You can then give them fearless in the following turn (via synpase or psychic powers) and they can immediately act normally as if they had not gone to ground.

This also works well with gaunts and the like as well, since models that have gone to ground do not take IB tests (this is per FAQ). So they ignore the IB test, but then immediately act as normal due to getting fearless.

Arent pretty much everything in the Nid dex except Harpies technically pretty good, but compete with something infinitely better? Thats the biggest complaint i usually hear is its too crowded of a codex.

 Vineheart01 wrote:
Arent pretty much everything in the Nid dex except Harpies technically pretty good, but compete with something infinitely better? Thats the biggest complaint i usually hear is its too crowded of a codex.

That's what this thread is about.

The stealer thing though...i will for sure be using that in conjunction with Endurance.

+1 on Genestealer tactics!!

Saythings wrote:
+1 on Genestealer tactics!!

Sorry, it was unclear in the original post. I was in a bit of a hurry at work with that one. I have used this trick to start a brood all the way in the back of the opponents deployment zone. He was foolish enough to leave me a nice big gap 18" form every thing.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I am just not seeing the harpy love. It is not much good against other flyers, it is subject to I.B.:Lurk, potentially self wounding, expensive unit that does little more than a Biovore.

If you take biovores, consider switching for pyrovores in a pod. Hear me out, 3 heavy flamer templates, IB-feed, a rule that allows them to shoot while feeding, ignores armor saves.

That's 9 attacks on the charge when they fail IB. Preceded by 3 heavy flamer templates. Is that terrible for 175 points? What are you taking in your elite slots anyway?

Deathleaper... MVP every time.

Spore mines. They put out their aegis wall. Before deployment, you drop your mines behind the wall. Now they're screwed especially if they're tau and they wanted to camp behind the wall.

gameandwatch wrote: Played a game recently, gave stock t-fexes a try, and MAN are they fun. I do really wish they could take spore pods, but with endurance, 2 of them is just a fun silly time. My opponent had a hell of a time trying to take them down and with double flamers or torrent flamer and large blast, they were roastin dudes left and right. Honestly, felt like I had two godzillas marchin up radiation breathing everything. 

You realise the T-fex can fire all 3 weapons? The main cannon and the Cluster Spines/Splinter Salvo due to MC rules and the thorax swsrm because it can fire in addition to other weapon.

Thatguyoverthere11 wrote:
Spore mines. They put out their aegis wall. Before deployment, you drop your mines behind the wall. Now they're screwed especially if they're tau and they wanted to camp behind the wall.

Have we actually found a legitimate reason to take spore mines now? This tactic makes quite a bit of sense.

 Deadshot wrote:

gameandwatch wrote: Played a game recently, gave stock t-fexes a try, and MAN are they fun. I do really wish they could take spore pods, but with endurance, 2 of them is just a fun silly time. My opponent had a hell of a time trying to take them down and with double flamers or torrent flamer and large blast, they were roastin dudes left and right. Honestly, felt like I had two godzillas marchin up radiation breathing everything. 

You realise the T-fex can fire all 3 weapons? The main cannon and the Cluster Spines/Splinter Salvo due to MC rules and the thorax swsrm because it can fire in addition to other weapon.

Sweet...it's not going to be often that 2S10 ap4 shots do a whole lot to infantry...but its worth knowing.

 Unyielding Hunger wrote:

Thatguyoverthere11 wrote:
Spore mines. They put out their aegis wall. Before deployment, you drop your mines behind the wall. Now they're screwed especially if they're tau and they wanted to camp behind the wall.

Have we actually found a legitimate reason to take spore mines now? This tactic makes quite a bit of sense.

I love this idea.

It actually super awesome because you can totally screw your opponents deployment up for what? 30-60 points per unit of spore mines? Fast attack slot isn't a highly competitive FoC slot so as long as you can spare the points, you can ensure yourself playing mind games

Yeah and the beauty that they are the only TRUE sacrificial unit in the game, giving nothing to your opponents like KP. I think I am going to adopt using them for not only aegis denial, but so that they can deny key zones of deployment as well.

Funny that spore mines are actually a fantastic way to pair with harpies, deny them that quadgun and thrive!

The triple gun on t-fexes...I had no idea...I should have read thorax swarm again... MAN, large blast, torrent flamer AND 2+ to wound flamer?!? that is CRAZY!

 gameandwatch wrote:
Yeah and the beauty that they are the only TRUE sacrificial unit in the game, giving nothing to your opponents like KP. I think I am going to adopt using them for not only aegis denial, but so that they can deny key zones of deployment as well.

They're also amazing for infiltrator denial...along with that...it's useful in denying infiltrate areas so your own units can go there.

Hmm thats a good point, they are actually a pretty amazing screen too, say like playing demons, just deep strike them onto the obvious path for the flesh hound packs.

Let's not get crazy now lol. If they bump into eachother, they die, if they mishap they auto-destroy like if you rolled a 1. About theonly thing tthey're good for is messing ip an aegis line and counter-infiltrate

HEY MAN I CAN DREAM....teehee, yeah I wont ever end up using them, but its fun to imagine the possibilities

Thatguyoverthere11 wrote:
Let's not get crazy now lol. If they bump into eachother, they die, if they mishap they auto-destroy like if you rolled a 1. About theonly thing tthey're good for is messing ip an aegis line and counter-infiltrate

When one spore mine drifts into another...the one that was in the process of moving is removed from the board...no explosion. It's absorbed by the hive for all intensive purposes.

Right, but fail a dangerous terrain test and they're all going to template eachother lol

Thoughts on Carnifexes and their uses? I play the usual Nid list:

2 flyrants
2 tervigon
2 20-gaunt

My list are always built around those cores units. Recently I've wanted to try and run 2 DakkaFexes, but I have mixed feelings on them. Should I drop them in spores along side y. genestealers? Or run them along side my Gaunts on the flanks as distractions? But at a little under 200 points.....that's pricy for a single bug.

Dakkafexes should be dropped in. Since the spore is so accurate (being unable to mishap), it will amost guarantee you put the Dakkafex within range of your ideal target the turn it drops.

They have enough shots that a single Dakkafex will wither whatever you shoot at, short of a large power/terminator armoured squad. Since there's only 2 vehicles in the game that are 14/14/14, have fun wasting tanks on rear armour as well.

They're a big enough threat that your opponent will want to redirect units to deal with it, but small enough threat that they probably won't redirect enough to adequately deal with it, and if it survives, it'll probably get Rage on your next turn for even more fun.

Tyranid prime, outfitted to taste
3 Dakkafexes with frag grenades if you like

Combined with biomancy from a tervigon giving them FNP and It Will Not Die makes this thing pretty tough to take down.

Plus, you average 11 str 6 hits on fliers. This usually means a hull point or two off AV12 but against rear armor you'll take it down.

Personally I love what this thread turned into. Lots of cool ideas to try that just aren't the norm. Yeah there are units that we should never take (ahem skyslashers) except for fun/themed lists, but I really enjoy finding ways to take non-standard models and make them do cool things. I now want to try some tyrannofexes shooting flame templates all over the place.

If only my club would let me run stonecrushers too. :\

I run skyslashers to great avail...rippers are another story.

WIth the new terrain deployment and infantry based armies that don't take blast weapons...slashers are awesome.

Where does it say that Crushing Claws are AP1? I've never seen that before.

Only the stone crusher is AP1 and only against vehicles

Ooh. Okay. Well, good thing I have one then! ;D

Old One Eye has the same loadout as a stone crusher and can also be played as thus.

I'm really not a fan of Old One Eye's model though. He doesn't look very Carnifex-y.

That being said, I used the one-eyed head when I built my stone crusher, so I could play him as Old One Eye if I felt so inclined. I've never used him in a game before. Maybe I'll try it sometime.

I dunno, maybe I'll pick up the model sometime just to have it.

Don't use the model.

Just no.

I built my stone crusher with the wrecking ball and dual scytals...my old one eye is a normal fex with scytals and forgeworld crushing claws.

As for using old one eye...he pales in comparison to a stone crusher...by a lot. But he's fun for some S10 wreck face action and has a LD bubble.

The last thing I killed with my Old One Eye was the Doom of Malan'tai...funsies!

 ductvader wrote:
Old One Eye has the same loadout as a stone crusher and can also be played as thus.

No, he doesn't. The crushing claw he has is different from the stonecrusher's.

A tactic I've heard of recently is to Infiltrate Genestealers up, GtG when shot at, then move Synapse creatures up to immediately stand them back up. Does this actually work?

Yes. It's unreliable at best (IME) but it can work.

rigeld2 wrote:

 ductvader wrote:
Old One Eye has the same loadout as a stone crusher and can also be played as thus.

No, he doesn't. The crushing claw he has is different from the stonecrusher's.

The stonecrusher can be played with the Wrecking ball or the Crushing claws...Old One Eye is a perfect stand in.

So, talk about raveners. I've never played with them before, and recently came into some models for them. What is the best way to run them, how are they most effective?

The only thing that I like taking on them is spinefists...they're fast enough to get in close...and then 4 tl shots before 5 "tl" attacks is gravy.

They're a first wave unit that is more effective as a second wave assault...the faster things in bug...stealers, shrikes and raveners tend to get torn up when out front. By holding back on their speed you keep away from assault for an extra turn and flank as the rest of the army catches up.

start mawloc on the board, burrow T1, guaranteed to come in T2. Has this been mentioned? Still has to sit there a turn and be shot at.

Old one eye - Love the old model and i actually prefer this style of fex to the new one.
Must be something about the grin he has
However, for more than a land raider and 100 more than a normal fex, its a bit heavy.
Claws on a normal fex with spines works just fine for assaulting.
Or keep twin talons for the re-rolls and make use of the initiative boost from the battering ram rules.

Ravs - I feel these are soo under rated that its no longer funny.
Yes, they are fairly soft, but the biggest weakness is LD.
That can be solved with a trygon prime though.
Throw dev's on them and claws and they tear through most things with relative ease.
Or just stick to twin talons for the re-rolls.
I tend to run either a unit of 9 or 2 units of 6.

Gargoyles - Awww, mobile screens.
However, people need to look more into them
240 points gets you 30 upgraded ones.
For that you get a basic attack, +1 for assaulting and +1 from hammer.
Seems pretty decent to me.
And both upgrades for a small 2 points?
Also, venom means any 6's to hit auto-wound.
So against a large thing like a riptide, your pretty well off.

90 attacks in total.

15 of which will auto-wound.
38 more will hit.
19 of those wound.

Thats 34 wounds put on a riptide in a single round.
5.666 unsaved wounds.
The riptide isnt going to do a great deal in return either, even if it kills 2, thats 16 points dead lol.

They really are pure evil against anything, and due to high numbers and low cost, overwatch fire isnt that much of a big deal.

But the most crucial thing?
They are fast attack, so dont really contend with anything except ravs.

Really really under rated unit that i love and ill never run a list without atleast 60 in it.