FlingitNow wrote:
Harmonic Convergence without a channelling staff just seems a waste. Do you need that many Skirmishers? Wouldn't making your Salamanders bigger help more? Or upgrading the the Saurus to Temple Guard?

I personally prefer the Egg Bomb Ripperchief to the Cold one Vet for warmachine hunting. Flying makes a big difference.

 FlingitNow wrote:
I'm not suggesting dropping the Stubborn Vet. Just the War Machine Hunting one. You shouldn't be testing to restrain outside of LD bubble until you're in his backfield. Remember you get to choose who you charge (just not if you charge).

I think you're trying to run the list too much like the Old book. No way to guarantee Dwellers or indeed any major damage spell now. Have you played this? Because I don't see it being all that effective relying on Poison shooting and magic to do damage.

 FlingitNow wrote:
But you don't have Dwellers. You have a 1 in 6 chance of getting it the turn after you cast a spell... So you're reliant on 2 Salamanders and redirecting?

 FlingitNow wrote:
What do you mean by "although that one discipline that lets him take all the sigs and lore attribute for high"

Because such a Discipline doesn't exist. What the original poster is claiming is he can take Loremaster High and still generate his 4 normal Spells from Life. Thus totaling 12 Spells as nothing in Focus of Mystery demands you pick High as your Lore.

 FlingitNow wrote:
Yeah just checking the wording for Loremaster if you take it I don't think you can generate Spells from a different Lore. Loremaster states you know the spells from his Lore. If you take Loremaster (High) and take Life as his Lore you don't get any High Spells and have just wasted 35 points

 FlingitNow wrote:
He has Loremaster High, if he takes spells from Life, High is not his Lore and this he gets no spells from it...

 FlingitNow wrote:
I know what Loremaster says do you? What Lore is your Slaan. Because Loremaster only gives him spells from that Lore. If that Lore is not High then Loremaster (High) does nothing for him.

Read Loremaster again it only gives you spells from your Lore...

 FlingitNow wrote:
I know what Loremaster says do you? What Lore is your Slaan. Because Loremaster only gives him spells from that Lore. If that Lore is not High then Loremaster (High) does nothing for him.

Read Loremaster again it only gives you spells from your Lore...

Eihnlazer wrote:
Normally speaking, models cannot buy Loremaster of a specific lore, therefore they would obtain all the spells of their chosen lore.

Slann however, can buy Loremaster (high magic).

Im fairly certain it was an oversight to not restrict buying this upgrade unless you chose lore of high magic, but as of this time and until it is faq'd, the slann can indeed pick a second lore and get 4 spells rolled as per normal and also know all of high magic.

Eihnlazer wrote:
Normally speaking, models cannot buy Loremaster of a specific lore, therefore they would obtain all the spells of their chosen lore.

Slann however, can buy Loremaster (high magic).

Im fairly certain it was an oversight to not restrict buying this upgrade unless you chose lore of high magic, but as of this time and until it is faq'd, the slann can indeed pick a second lore and get 4 spells rolled as per normal and also know all of high magic.

 FlingitNow wrote:

Eihnlazer wrote:
Normally speaking, models cannot buy Loremaster of a specific lore, therefore they would obtain all the spells of their chosen lore.

Slann however, can buy Loremaster (high magic).

Im fairly certain it was an oversight to not restrict buying this upgrade unless you chose lore of high magic, but as of this time and until it is faq'd, the slann can indeed pick a second lore and get 4 spells rolled as per normal and also know all of high magic.

Loremaster Special Rule disagrees with you. Loremaster (High) only gives you all the High Spells if the Wizard's Lore is High.

A wizard with the Loremaster special rule knows all the spells from his chosen lore - he does not need to roll randomly.

HawaiiMatt wrote:
Loremaster says

A wizard with the Loremaster special rule knows all the spells from his chosen lore - he does not need to roll randomly.

Sorry, but nothing in the slaan description says he can choose more than 1 lore.

On the other hand, page 490 that outlines spell generation as the singular chosen lore.

 Son of Landuin wrote:
Loremaster says:
A loremaster knows all spells form his lore
The lore in question is normal given in brackets as part of loremaster rule. For example a model with loremaster (fire) would know all spells from lore of fire.

So no, you only get high as a loremaster, not any other lores. Which make sense because an ordinary slann should not really be as powerful as mazdamundi
Technicaly the lore is picked with the army as well, so an all comers list must have a set lore in tye list. So taking loremaster high means you must take high magic.

 thedarkavenger wrote:

HawaiiMatt wrote:
Loremaster says

A wizard with the Loremaster special rule knows all the spells from his chosen lore - he does not need to roll randomly.

Sorry, but nothing in the slaan description says he can choose more than 1 lore.

On the other hand, page 490 that outlines spell generation as the singular chosen lore.

So Mannfred has to choose either lore of vampires or lore of death? As he has to choose one of those lores. No. There is nothing in the Focus Discipline that says it is taken over your level 4. So it is taken in addition. Because they all are.

 FlingitNow wrote:

 thedarkavenger wrote:

HawaiiMatt wrote:
Loremaster says

A wizard with the Loremaster special rule knows all the spells from his chosen lore - he does not need to roll randomly.

Sorry, but nothing in the slaan description says he can choose more than 1 lore.

On the other hand, page 490 that outlines spell generation as the singular chosen lore.

So Mannfred has to choose either lore of vampires or lore of death? As he has to choose one of those lores. No. There is nothing in the Focus Discipline that says it is taken over your level 4. So it is taken in addition. Because they all are.

Have you read Mannfred's rules? He gets spells from both Death and Vampires thus both Death and Vampires are his Lore hence Loremaster works for both.

So again yes you can buy Loremaster (high) and choose to be a life wizard. But if you do this you don't get any High spells as High magic is no longer "his Lore"...

 FlingitNow wrote:
Yes I know Loremaster (High) doesn't change his spell generate. It also doesn't do anything if his chosen Lore is not High. Are you really telling me that for 35points a basic Slain can be a better spell caster than Mazdamundi?

Manfred has 2 Lores. Why? Because his rules specify that he has 2 Lores. Does a Slaan ANYWHERE state he gets 2 Lores? If not then you can't.

 thedarkavenger wrote:

 Son of Landuin wrote:
Loremaster says:
A loremaster knows all spells form his lore
The lore in question is normal given in brackets as part of loremaster rule. For example a model with loremaster (fire) would know all spells from lore of fire.

So no, you only get high as a loremaster, not any other lores. Which make sense because an ordinary slann should not really be as powerful as mazdamundi
Technicaly the lore is picked with the army as well, so an all comers list must have a set lore in tye list. So taking loremaster high means you must take high magic.

That is if the character has it as a special rule, but in this case you purchase it in addition to your normal spells. The reason Wandering Deliberations stops overrides the normal spell generation is because it states that it does. As this is an upgrade which gives him loremaster, it will work in addition to the 4 spells he generates.

 Son of Landuin wrote:

 thedarkavenger wrote:

 Son of Landuin wrote:
Loremaster says:
A loremaster knows all spells form his lore
The lore in question is normal given in brackets as part of loremaster rule. For example a model with loremaster (fire) would know all spells from lore of fire.

So no, you only get high as a loremaster, not any other lores. Which make sense because an ordinary slann should not really be as powerful as mazdamundi
Technicaly the lore is picked with the army as well, so an all comers list must have a set lore in tye list. So taking loremaster high means you must take high magic.

That is if the character has it as a special rule, but in this case you purchase it in addition to your normal spells. The reason Wandering Deliberations stops overrides the normal spell generation is because it states that it does. As this is an upgrade which gives him loremaster, it will work in addition to the 4 spells he generates.

Does it say in addition to your normal spells? No.

I remember asking the manager of the store if my slann could get two lores last edit lizardmen and he said no because the faq turned the rule into loremaster. I think its a bit like ogre butchers take magic armour through the ironfist. You can do it, except you will have no friends. All my ogre friends never do it cos its stupid.
And does it matter? You have 8 spells anyway. Be happy.

Also, in the loremaster rule, it does not say he has to take the lore that he has loremastery of.

It doesn't say instead of generating spells normally, your slann is a loremaster. Therefore, it stands to reason that he generates spells normally.

Yes, it kinda does.

BRB says under loremaster rule:

"if the wizard has this rule he does NOT generate his spells as normal, he simply picks a lore and knows all the spells in that lore".

So, because Slann have a discipline that grants Loremaster (High Magic) he does NOT generate any spells, but instead knows all the spells from the Lore of High Magic.

Reply by: thedarkavenger - click to view full reply 

57471

Lizardmen, party slann filth @ 2013/08/21 21:46:45

Post by: thedarkavenger

 mixer86 wrote:

It doesn't say instead of generating spells normally, your slann is a loremaster. Therefore, it stands to reason that he generates spells normally.

Yes, it kinda does.

BRB says under loremaster rule:

"if the wizard has this rule he does NOT generate his spells as normal, he simply picks a lore and knows all the spells in that lore".

So, because Slann have a discipline that grants Loremaster (High Magic) he does NOT generate any spells, but instead knows all the spells from the Lore of High Magic.

It doesn't say that he doesn't generate them normally, just that he doesn't need to roll for them. IT also doesn't say that he has to use it if he has multiple lores available to him. Like a Slann with Focus.

EDITS: A MILLION TYPOS.

Reply by: FlingitNow - click to view full reply 

22508

Lizardmen, party slann filth @ 2013/08/21 21:57:03

Post by: FlingitNow

Where exactly does it state a Slaan with Focus has access to multiple Lores? You've just made that up.

Reply by: thedarkavenger - click to view full reply 

57471

Lizardmen, party slann filth @ 2013/08/21 22:20:00

Post by: thedarkavenger

 FlingitNow wrote:
Where exactly does it state a Slaan with Focus has access to multiple Lores? You've just made that up.

Loremaster doesn't replace your lore choice. It just grants you knowledge of all the spells from that lore.

Reply by: Eihnlazer - click to view full reply 

76273

Lizardmen, party slann filth @ 2013/08/22 03:54:55

Post by: Eihnlazer

 FlingitNow wrote:

Also, in the loremaster rule, it does not say he has to take the lore that he has loremastery of.

No it doesn't but it does say you only get spells from the Lore you take...

How is this so difficult for you to understand?

Loremaster = knows all spells from HIS lore
Loremaster (High) = Knows all spells from HIS lore limited to High.

Prove that your Slaan's Lore is High magic when he choose Life to be his Lore or concede.

This is inccorrect. There is nothing in the rulebook anywhere that says having Loremaster (high) causes you to be limited in the lore you choose.
If you take the LITERAL meaning of the loremaster special rule (which states if you gain loremaster (*) you have access to all spells of the spellcasters lore), then you also take into account that focus mastery gives you loremaster (high magic), then you would understand the slann is not gaining loremaster (*) and your argument has nothing to do with the situation.

You pick your lore, which allows you to generate 4 spells from it, and you also have loremaster (high magic) which means you know all high magic spells. That it......... its very clear.

Until they faq it, you'll have to house rule it, cause thats how it works.

Reply by: mixer86 - click to view full reply 

63025

Lizardmen, party slann filth @ 2013/08/22 06:27:16

Post by: mixer86

It doesn't say that he doesn't generate them normally, just that he doesn't need to roll for them.

Not having to roll for your spells means you are NOT generating them normally.

Reply by: FlingitNow - click to view full reply 

22508

Lizardmen, party slann filth @ 2013/08/22 07:08:03

Post by: FlingitNow

Eihnlazer wrote:

 FlingitNow wrote:

Also, in the loremaster rule, it does not say he has to take the lore that he has loremastery of.

No it doesn't but it does say you only get spells from the Lore you take...

How is this so difficult for you to understand?

Loremaster = knows all spells from HIS lore
Loremaster (High) = Knows all spells from HIS lore limited to High.

Prove that your Slaan's Lore is High magic when he choose Life to be his Lore or concede.

This is inccorrect. There is nothing in the rulebook anywhere that says having Loremaster (high) causes you to be limited in the lore you choose.
If you take the LITERAL meaning of the loremaster special rule (which states if you gain loremaster (*) you have access to all spells of the spellcasters lore), then you also take into account that focus mastery gives you loremaster (high magic), then you would understand the slann is not gaining loremaster (*) and your argument has nothing to do with the situation.

You pick your lore, which allows you to generate 4 spells from it, and you also have loremaster (high magic) which means you know all high magic spells. That it......... its very clear.

Until they faq it, you'll have to house rule it, cause thats how it works.

Sorry but where have I ever said that Loremaster (High) means you have to take High as your Lore? Why are people who are arguing this repeatedly making this false claim? Why not just read what I've said?

So again prove that if you take say Life as your Lore that High is your Lore. Because if High is not your Lore then Loremaster does nothing for you as you only know all the spell from your Lore. This is what Loremaster says.

As Mixer has also pointed out Loremaster also prohibits you from rolling for spells. So the actual RaW of having Loremaster High and choosing Life means you don't get any spells as Loremaster only gives you all the spells from your Lore and prevents you from rolling for spells...

Reply by: thedarkavenger - click to view full reply 

57471

Lizardmen, party slann filth @ 2013/08/22 07:56:47

Post by: thedarkavenger

 FlingitNow wrote:

Eihnlazer wrote:

 FlingitNow wrote:

Also, in the loremaster rule, it does not say he has to take the lore that he has loremastery of.

No it doesn't but it does say you only get spells from the Lore you take...

How is this so difficult for you to understand?

Loremaster = knows all spells from HIS lore
Loremaster (High) = Knows all spells from HIS lore limited to High.

Prove that your Slaan's Lore is High magic when he choose Life to be his Lore or concede.

This is inccorrect. There is nothing in the rulebook anywhere that says having Loremaster (high) causes you to be limited in the lore you choose.
If you take the LITERAL meaning of the loremaster special rule (which states if you gain loremaster (*) you have access to all spells of the spellcasters lore), then you also take into account that focus mastery gives you loremaster (high magic), then you would understand the slann is not gaining loremaster (*) and your argument has nothing to do with the situation.

You pick your lore, which allows you to generate 4 spells from it, and you also have loremaster (high magic) which means you know all high magic spells. That it......... its very clear.

Until they faq it, you'll have to house rule it, cause thats how it works.

Sorry but where have I ever said that Loremaster (High) means you have to take High as your Lore? Why are people who are arguing this repeatedly making this false claim? Why not just read what I've said?

So again prove that if you take say Life as your Lore that High is your Lore. Because if High is not your Lore then Loremaster does nothing for you as you only know all the spell from your Lore. This is what Loremaster says.

As Mixer has also pointed out Loremaster also prohibits you from rolling for spells. So the actual RaW of having Loremaster High and choosing Life means you don't get any spells as Loremaster only gives you all the spells from your Lore and prevents you from rolling for spells...

A) You've been arguing that he has to take high if he's using loremaster.

B) The loremaster rule does not prohibit you from rolling for spells. It just means that he gets loremaster of HIS CHOSEN lore. The reason it's written like that is because, until this book came out, all loremasters had loremastery written down at the character choice stage, I.E. Mazdamundi. But a Slann can choose loremaster in addition to his normal level 4 spell generation. This is because, neither the book, nor the BRB prohibit him from doing so.

Reply by: HawaiiMatt - click to view full reply 

35241

Lizardmen, party slann filth @ 2013/08/22 08:27:50

Post by: HawaiiMatt

thedarkavenger wrote:
So Mannfred has to choose either lore of vampires or lore of death? As he has to choose one of those lores. No. There is nothing in the Focus Discipline that says it is taken over your level 4. So it is taken in addition. Because they all are.

Manfred has a rule that specifies he has 2 lores, and the description says he knows all spells from lore of death and lore of vampire.
For that to be the same as the slaan, the slaan would need to say that he knows all the spells from lore of high magic, in addition to his normal spells.

thedarkavenger wrote:
B) The loremaster rule does not prohibit you from rolling for spells.

"knows all the spells from his chosen lore - he does not need to roll randomly."
Right. You don't need to roll, because you already have them all. This is why you can have multiple wizards with the same spell when one of them is a lore master; the lore master didn't roll the spell.
The slaans WD needed to specify that it's instead of generating normally, because their is no Lore Master (Signature) rule.

As the rule set is permissive, the general rule is a wizard can only generate from a single lore. Wandering D specifically over-riders that, as does the Grey Seer, Manfred, and the special daemon lord of tzeench.
Loremaster high magic does not.

-Matt

Reply by: thedarkavenger - click to view full reply 

57471

Lizardmen, party slann filth @ 2013/08/22 08:44:44

Post by: thedarkavenger

HawaiiMatt wrote:

thedarkavenger wrote:
So Mannfred has to choose either lore of vampires or lore of death? As he has to choose one of those lores. No. There is nothing in the Focus Discipline that says it is taken over your level 4. So it is taken in addition. Because they all are.

Manfred has a rule that specifies he has 2 lores, and the description says he knows all spells from lore of death and lore of vampire.
For that to be the same as the slaan, the slaan would need to say that he knows all the spells from lore of high magic, in addition to his normal spells.

thedarkavenger wrote:
B) The loremaster rule does not prohibit you from rolling for spells.

"knows all the spells from his chosen lore - he does not need to roll randomly."
Right. You don't need to roll, because you already have them all. This is why you can have multiple wizards with the same spell when one of them is a lore master; the lore master didn't roll the spell.
The slaans WD needed to specify that it's instead of generating normally, because their is no Lore Master (Signature) rule.

As the rule set is permissive, the general rule is a wizard can only generate from a single lore. Wandering D specifically over-riders that, as does the Grey Seer, Manfred, and the special daemon lord of tzeench.
Loremaster high magic does not.

-Matt

I know wandering Deliberations overridesthe normal generation. Focus of Mystery does not. And due to the obscure wording of the book, you pick a lore, AND buy him loremaster.

Reply by: mixer86 - click to view full reply 

63025

Lizardmen, party slann filth @ 2013/08/22 08:49:50

Post by: mixer86

A) You've been arguing that he has to take high if he's using loremaster.

Flingitnow hasn't said that, i have because in my eyes he does have to take High if you choose the Loremaster (High) discipline. i believe that because the Loremaster rule in the BRB states you DO NOT roll anything in order to generate your spells, you gain all the spells in HIS lore. HIS lore for me has to be High because the discipline says it is High.

B) The loremaster rule does not prohibit you from rolling for spells. It just means that he gets loremaster of HIS CHOSEN lore. The reason it's written like that is because, until this book came out, all loremasters had loremastery written down at the character choice stage, I.E. Mazdamundi. But a Slann can choose loremaster in addition to his normal level 4 spell generation. This is because, neither the book, nor the BRB prohibit him from doing so.

For me it does, the price you are paying for NOT being able to generate spells normally is that you gain all spells from HIS lore, which as i've stated must be High because the discipline only grants loremaster for high magic, as indicated by the Loremaster (HIGH)

Reply by: thedarkavenger - click to view full reply 

57471

Lizardmen, party slann filth @ 2013/08/22 10:30:34

Post by: thedarkavenger

 mixer86 wrote:

A) You've been arguing that he has to take high if he's using loremaster.

Flingitnow hasn't said that, i have because in my eyes he does have to take High if you choose the Loremaster (High) discipline. i believe that because the Loremaster rule in the BRB states you DO NOT roll anything in order to generate your spells, you gain all the spells in HIS lore. HIS lore for me has to be High because the discipline says it is High.

B) The loremaster rule does not prohibit you from rolling for spells. It just means that he gets loremaster of HIS CHOSEN lore. The reason it's written like that is because, until this book came out, all loremasters had loremastery written down at the character choice stage, I.E. Mazdamundi. But a Slann can choose loremaster in addition to his normal level 4 spell generation. This is because, neither the book, nor the BRB prohibit him from doing so.

For me it does, the price you are paying for NOT being able to generate spells normally is that you gain all spells from HIS lore, which as i've stated must be High because the discipline only grants loremaster for high magic, as indicated by the Loremaster (HIGH)

Lore master works on his chosen lore. Which means the lore of his choice. The sole reason that is written that way is because up until this book, loremasters were assigned lores at the character choice stage, or had the USR and got to pick their lores.

But, as a slann gets to pick his lore AS WELL AS becoming a loremaster. And nowhere in the rulebook does it state that you have to use your lore if you are a loremaster of it. It was implied due to the reason above.

Reply by: TanKoL - click to view full reply 

64836

Lizardmen, party slann filth @ 2013/08/22 11:04:20

Post by: TanKoL

But, as a slann gets to pick his lore AS WELL AS becoming a loremaster. And nowhere in the rulebook does it state that you have to use your lore if you are a loremaster of it. It was implied due to the reason above.

You are perfectly correctly here
Nothing forces you to select High magic even though you are a Loremaster
You would then choose Life as your lore, and the special rule "Loremaster (High)" wouldn't trigger because you didn't choose "High" as your lore
way to sink your own argument there!

Reply by: alex87 - click to view full reply 

9802

Lizardmen, party slann filth @ 2013/08/22 11:07:57

Post by: alex87

In either case this list is going to be very hard to pull off.

If the rules are applied as intended then this list lacks damage output and relies really heavily on promise of spell swapping.

If the OP, or anyone else, intended to enforce this 'Rules as Written' version of how the Loremaster rule affects Slann then I'm sorry but I'll be looking for a new opponent because that is utterly ridiculous.

Reply by: FlingitNow - click to view full reply 

22508

Lizardmen, party slann filth @ 2013/08/22 12:01:06

Post by: FlingitNow

I've never said Loremaster (high) prevents you from picking a different Lore. It just does not give you the 8 spells if you don't pick High RAW. It also prevents you from rolling for any spells RAW. So with your list as is your Slaan gets no spells.

Reply by: thedarkavenger - click to view full reply 

57471

Lizardmen, party slann filth @ 2013/08/22 12:17:06

Post by: thedarkavenger

TanKoL wrote:

But, as a slann gets to pick his lore AS WELL AS becoming a loremaster. And nowhere in the rulebook does it state that you have to use your lore if you are a loremaster of it. It was implied due to the reason above.

You are perfectly correctly here
Nothing forces you to select High magic even though you are a Loremaster
You would then choose Life as your lore, and the special rule "Loremaster (High)" wouldn't trigger because you didn't choose "High" as your lore
way to sink your own argument there!

Way to misinterpret my post.

Loremaster of High magic grants you 8 spells.

If you had that as a USR, then you only get those 8 spells.

But because the slann purchases Loremastery in addition to generating 4 spells, he gets his 4 spells as well as loremastery.

Whilst RAI, he should only get the loremastery. But, RAW currently, the loremastery does not replace his spell generation as it is an upgrade in addition to the normal spells, so he gets his basic 4 spells, as well as all of high magic.

Reply by: TanKoL - click to view full reply 

64836

Lizardmen, party slann filth @ 2013/08/22 12:31:04

Post by: TanKoL

Yes it is in addition, but the special rule only triggers if you choose the relevant lore as "your lore of choice"

Reply by: thedarkavenger - click to view full reply 

57471

Lizardmen, party slann filth @ 2013/08/22 13:46:33

Post by: thedarkavenger

TanKoL wrote:
Yes it is in addition, but the special rule only triggers if you choose the relevant lore as "your lore of choice"

His chosen lore, means the lore in the brackets, if he has loremaster high, he knows all the spells from high magic.

Therefore, he knows all the spells from high, and 4 spells from life.

Reply by: OgreChubbs - click to view full reply 

65199

Lizardmen, party slann filth @ 2013/08/22 14:32:29

Post by: OgreChubbs

no he knows all spells for his chosen lore and then he is a level four, for dice generating purpose only. Unless it states he can know multiple lores and freely chose between them he can't

Reply by: FlingitNow - click to view full reply 

22508

Lizardmen, party slann filth @ 2013/08/22 15:55:02

Post by: FlingitNow

Loremaster of High magic grants you 8 spells.

8 spells from your Lore if High is your Lore. It also prevents you rolling for spell generation. Stop only apply a small section of the Loremaster rule.

But because the slann purchases Loremastery in addition to generating 4 spells, he gets his 4 spells as well as loremastery.

Yes but he is not allowed to roll any spells per Loremaster rules. So those 4 spells are never generated. Whilst Loremaster only gives him spells from his Lore which as it is High means he gets none from that.

Whilst RAI, he should only get the loremastery. But, RAW currently, the loremastery does not replace his spell generation as it is an upgrade in addition to the normal spells, so he gets his basic 4 spells, as well as all of high magic.

So even by your own ideas this is admitting you are cheating. Then you've stated RAW means something that RAW clearly doesn't.

"A Wizard with the Loremaster special rule knows all the spells from HIS chosen lore" raw his Lore only!

"He does not need to roll randomly" RAW he does not roll for spells.

Reply by: Eihnlazer - click to view full reply 

76273

Lizardmen, party slann filth @ 2013/08/22 16:57:05

Post by: Eihnlazer

Your too stuck up on the HIS part of that discription. But seeing as how you wont ever concede im not gonna argue about it anymore.


Until someone can convince me that im just reading wrong (which im not) then we'll just have to agree to dissagree.

Reply by: thedarkavenger - click to view full reply 

57471

Lizardmen, party slann filth @ 2013/08/22 17:03:46

Post by: thedarkavenger

 FlingitNow wrote:

Loremaster of High magic grants you 8 spells.

8 spells from your Lore if High is your Lore. It also prevents you rolling for spell generation. Stop only apply a small section of the Loremaster rule.

But because the slann purchases Loremastery in addition to generating 4 spells, he gets his 4 spells as well as loremastery.

Yes but he is not allowed to roll any spells per Loremaster rules. So those 4 spells are never generated. Whilst Loremaster only gives him spells from his Lore which as it is High means he gets none from that.

Whilst RAI, he should only get the loremastery. But, RAW currently, the loremastery does not replace his spell generation as it is an upgrade in addition to the normal spells, so he gets his basic 4 spells, as well as all of high magic.

So even by your own ideas this is admitting you are cheating. Then you've stated RAW means something that RAW clearly doesn't.

"A Wizard with the Loremaster special rule knows all the spells from HIS chosen lore" raw his Lore only!

"He does not need to roll randomly" RAW he does not roll for spells.

Loremaster doesn't actually prohibit you from rolling. It just says that he doesn't need to. It also doesn't say that he has to take that lore as his only lore. So if you could purchase loremaster for any mage, they would get loremastery of lore X in addition to their normal lore, as they don't have it in their Special Rules. Is that point so hard to understand?

Reply by: Son of Landuin - click to view full reply 

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Lizardmen, party slann filth @ 2013/08/22 18:26:14

Post by: Son of Landuin

Yeah, you don't NEED to roll for poisoned attacks either, and so are you gonna roll to wound when you roll a 6? No.
And:

YOU GAVE 8 SPELLS BE HAPPY KEEP FRIENDS AND PLAY NICE

and I think the army can do pretty well without 12 spells

Reply by: FlingitNow - click to view full reply 

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Lizardmen, party slann filth @ 2013/08/23 08:32:43

Post by: FlingitNow

Loremaster doesn't actually prohibit you from rolling. It just says that he doesn't need to. It also doesn't say that he has to take that lore as his only lore. So if you could purchase loremaster for any mage, they would get loremastery of lore X in addition to their normal lore, as they don't have it in their Special Rules. Is that point so hard to understand?

So you start of by saying that when it says you don't need to roll that you can in fact still roll (i.e. breaking RaW). Then you reiterate a bunch of stuff I've NEVER disagreed with. So please provide some rules to contradict my points or concede. So you need to find some rules that say:

1) A Slaan can choose 2 Lores.
2) Focus of Mystery gives you an exception to the normal Loremaster rules and allows you yo know all spells from High even if you don't select High as your Lore.
3) Slaan have an exception to the normal Loremaster rules that allows them to roll for Spells even when they are a Loremaster.

Please quote where the 3 rules above are because I can't see them. If you can contradict these RaW concede.

Reply by: thedarkavenger - click to view full reply 

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Lizardmen, party slann filth @ 2013/08/23 12:35:41

Post by: thedarkavenger

 FlingitNow wrote:

Loremaster doesn't actually prohibit you from rolling. It just says that he doesn't need to. It also doesn't say that he has to take that lore as his only lore. So if you could purchase loremaster for any mage, they would get loremastery of lore X in addition to their normal lore, as they don't have it in their Special Rules. Is that point so hard to understand?

So you start of by saying that when it says you don't need to roll that you can in fact still roll (i.e. breaking RaW). Then you reiterate a bunch of stuff I've NEVER disagreed with. So please provide some rules to contradict my points or concede. So you need to find some rules that say:

1) A Slaan can choose 2 Lores.
2) Focus of Mystery gives you an exception to the normal Loremaster rules and allows you yo know all spells from High even if you don't select High as your Lore.
3) Slaan have an exception to the normal Loremaster rules that allows them to roll for Spells even when they are a Loremaster.

Please quote where the 3 rules above are because I can't see them. If you can contradict these RaW concede.

1- Loremaster does not limit you to a single lore. Therefore a level 4 life with loremaster x would in deed have access to both lores.
2- See point 1.
3- Loremaster RAW says that you don't need to roll for spells on that particular lore. It says nothing about that being your only lore. Therefore, RAW, if you're a loremaster with access to spells from a lore other than the lore you have loremastery from, I.E. Slann with focus of Mystery, then you roll for the spells from aforementioned other lore.

Reply by: kooshlord - click to view full reply 

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Lizardmen, party slann filth @ 2013/08/23 16:59:24

Post by: kooshlord

Quick thought: There is precedent in the BRB for loremaster of a Lore other than your own.

Nehekarian Sphinx: which can randomly grant any character loremaster (death). It says only a wizard can take advantage of this, but does NOT say the wizard has to already have Lore of death to use it.

So unless the Sphinx has been FAQed differently, there's a point in favor of the 12 spell Slaan.

Reply by: thedarkavenger - click to view full reply 

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Lizardmen, party slann filth @ 2013/08/23 17:48:23

Post by: thedarkavenger

kooshlord wrote:
Quick thought: There is precedent in the BRB for loremaster of a Lore other than your own.

Nehekarian Sphinx: which can randomly grant any character loremaster (death). It says only a wizard can take advantage of this, but does NOT say the wizard has to already have Lore of death to use it.

So unless the Sphinx has been FAQed differently, there's a point in favor of the 12 spell Slaan.

And the fact that nothing in the BRB says that loremaster means you only have access to that lore. IT was assumed it did, as until now, there has been very few ways to give mages access to other lores.

Reply by: Son of Landuin - click to view full reply 

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Lizardmen, party slann filth @ 2013/08/23 18:57:51

Post by: Son of Landuin

You had already rolled for spells at the start of the game though. The rule is gained after you have started playing

Reply by: OgreChubbs - click to view full reply 

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Lizardmen, party slann filth @ 2013/08/23 19:05:47

Post by: OgreChubbs

 thedarkavenger wrote:

kooshlord wrote:
Quick thought: There is precedent in the BRB for loremaster of a Lore other than your own.

Nehekarian Sphinx: which can randomly grant any character loremaster (death). It says only a wizard can take advantage of this, but does NOT say the wizard has to already have Lore of death to use it.

So unless the Sphinx has been FAQed differently, there's a point in favor of the 12 spell Slaan.

And the fact that nothing in the BRB says that loremaster means you only have access to that lore. IT was assumed it did, as until now, there has been very few ways to give mages access to other lores.

Well using that logic the orc and goblin book says skull muncha and gnarla have " terror and size matters "skullmuncha and gnarla"" It doesn't say the lords. So if you kill their mounts the lords get scared of snotlings fleeing even tho earlier in the book it says orcs don't suffer from this. Oh well with their poor wording and such not my fault. Just like how they say in some of the older books the caster may choose spells from said lores. Doesn't say they have to, so any lore is up for grabs

There is always common sense needed to read.

Reply by: FlingitNow - click to view full reply 

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Lizardmen, party slann filth @ 2013/08/23 19:17:45

Post by: FlingitNow

And the fact that nothing in the BRB says that loremaster means you only have access to that lore.

And nothing in the BRB or Lizardman codex says you can have 2 lores...

Reply by: thedarkavenger - click to view full reply 

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Lizardmen, party slann filth @ 2013/08/23 19:31:48

Post by: thedarkavenger

 FlingitNow wrote:

And the fact that nothing in the BRB says that loremaster means you only have access to that lore.

And nothing in the BRB or Lizardman codex says you can have 2 lores...

If you can find me something that explicitly prevents me from using lore of life in conjunction to High Magic loremastery, then I'll concede.

Reply by: DarkStarSabre - click to view full reply 

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Lizardmen, party slann filth @ 2013/08/23 19:50:46

Post by: DarkStarSabre

Well. This is a mighty arguement for cheating.

There is still nothing saying a Slann can choose from 2 lores. So since you've taken the Loremaster discipline your Lore is pre-decided. High magic.

Reply by: thedarkavenger - click to view full reply 

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Lizardmen, party slann filth @ 2013/08/23 20:03:18

Post by: thedarkavenger

 DarkStarSabre wrote:
Well. This is a mighty arguement for cheating.

There is still nothing saying a Slann can choose from 2 lores. So since you've taken the Loremaster discipline your Lore is pre-decided. High magic.

Where does it say that my lore is predecided? Loremaster states that a mage has chosen a lore and he knows all the spells from it. Nothing about having to use that. In the past it was ruled so as it was in the Special Rules of a character so you were either assigned a lore or got to pick a loremastery.

HOWEVER, since a slann can choose to purchase loremastery, he is able to roll for his spells as well as take loremastery on another lore because of that precise wording of the special rule.

Reply by: DarkStarSabre - click to view full reply 

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Lizardmen, party slann filth @ 2013/08/23 20:21:01

Post by: DarkStarSabre

Still nothing saying a Slann can take 2 lores. The main rules specify that a wizard can only know spells from one Lore. The only exceptions are High Elves (taking a specific upgrade) and a Slann discipline (the same as the High Elf upgrade).

Reply by: Aelyn - click to view full reply 

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Lizardmen, party slann filth @ 2013/08/23 20:31:15

Post by: Aelyn

 thedarkavenger wrote:

 DarkStarSabre wrote:
Well. This is a mighty arguement for cheating.

There is still nothing saying a Slann can choose from 2 lores. So since you've taken the Loremaster discipline your Lore is pre-decided. High magic.

Where does it say that my lore is predecided? Loremaster states that a mage has chosen a lore and he knows all the spells from it. Nothing about having to use that. In the past it was ruled so as it was in the Special Rules of a character so you were either assigned a lore or got to pick a loremastery.

HOWEVER, since a slann can choose to purchase loremastery, he is able to roll for his spells as well as take loremastery on another lore because of that precise wording of the special rule.

Page 134, Wizards and Spell Lores.

You do need to make a note in your army roster of which spell lore each of your Wizards will use

This is singular; each Wizard only has, unless something specifically states otherwise, a single Lore. Page 29 (Choosing your Lore) reinforces that. So you select the Lore that a mage takes as part of the army selection, which is the same time as you choose what items a character takes.

Loremaster states:

A Wizards with the Loremaster special rule knows all the spells from his chosen Lore... The lore in question is normally given in brackets as part of the Loremaster special rule.

So when building the army, you have to note down the lore that the Slann is taking. As per the model having Loremaster (High Magic), his chosen lore is High Magic. You don't even have the option of taking a Slann with this special rule and choosing any other Lore; that would conflict with the Loremaster rule. You've even admitted that the chosen Lore is High Magic in your post (bolded above)

You are trying to find little chinks in the rules to allow your interpretation, and in doing so ignoring the (overwhelming) evidence against your interpretation. At best, you're Easter-egging; the very section I bolded above makes it pretty clear to me that you're trying to cheat.

Reply by: DarkStarSabre - click to view full reply 

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Lizardmen, party slann filth @ 2013/08/23 20:40:25

Post by: DarkStarSabre

I love how this thread is three pages of this guy trying to draw straws.

If his interpretation is correct then how come it's NEVER come up at any tournaments since 8th edition came out? It hasn't. Not once. So better people than him have not tried to wrangle this half as hard.

Stop trying to justify cheating.

Reply by: Son of Landuin - click to view full reply 

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Lizardmen, party slann filth @ 2013/08/23 21:38:37

Post by: Son of Landuin

If you want you can turn this into a poll...

Reply by: thedarkavenger - click to view full reply 

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Lizardmen, party slann filth @ 2013/08/23 21:59:44

Post by: thedarkavenger

 DarkStarSabre wrote:
I love how this thread is three pages of this guy trying to draw straws.

If his interpretation is correct then how come it's NEVER come up at any tournaments since 8th edition came out? It hasn't. Not once. So better people than him have not tried to wrangle this half as hard.

Stop trying to justify cheating.

It's never come up because the slann is the first model that can buy loremastery.

Reply by: DarkStarSabre - click to view full reply 

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Lizardmen, party slann filth @ 2013/08/23 22:02:06

Post by: DarkStarSabre

 thedarkavenger wrote:

 DarkStarSabre wrote:
I love how this thread is three pages of this guy trying to draw straws.

If his interpretation is correct then how come it's NEVER come up at any tournaments since 8th edition came out? It hasn't. Not once. So better people than him have not tried to wrangle this half as hard.

Stop trying to justify cheating.

It's never come up because the slann is the first model that can buy loremastery.

And Slann have been able to do so since the start of 8th edition.

People didn't do it then. People don't do it now. You're still trying to justify this?

Reply by: thedarkavenger - click to view full reply 

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Lizardmen, party slann filth @ 2013/08/23 22:05:01

Post by: thedarkavenger

Aelyn wrote:

 thedarkavenger wrote:

 DarkStarSabre wrote:
Well. This is a mighty arguement for cheating.

There is still nothing saying a Slann can choose from 2 lores. So since you've taken the Loremaster discipline your Lore is pre-decided. High magic.

Where does it say that my lore is predecided? Loremaster states that a mage has chosen a lore and he knows all the spells from it. Nothing about having to use that. In the past it was ruled so as it was in the Special Rules of a character so you were either assigned a lore or got to pick a loremastery.

HOWEVER, since a slann can choose to purchase loremastery, he is able to roll for his spells as well as take loremastery on another lore because of that precise wording of the special rule.

Page 134, Wizards and Spell Lores.

You do need to make a note in your army roster of which spell lore each of your Wizards will use

This is singular; each Wizard only has, unless something specifically states otherwise, a single Lore. Page 29 (Choosing your Lore) reinforces that. So you select the Lore that a mage takes as part of the army selection, which is the same time as you choose what items a character takes.

Loremaster states:

A Wizards with the Loremaster special rule knows all the spells from his chosen Lore... The lore in question is normally given in brackets as part of the Loremaster special rule.

So when building the army, you have to note down the lore that the Slann is taking. As per the model having Loremaster (High Magic), his chosen lore is High Magic. You don't even have the option of taking a Slann with this special rule and choosing any other Lore; that would conflict with the Loremaster rule. You've even admitted that the chosen Lore is High Magic in your post (bolded above)

You are trying to find little chinks in the rules to allow your interpretation, and in doing so ignoring the (overwhelming) evidence against your interpretation. At best, you're Easter-egging; the very section I bolded above makes it pretty clear to me that you're trying to cheat.

A)Mages generally have access to one lore, but when rules override his ability to roll normally, like having Loremastery as a Special rule, not an upgrade, or Wandering Deliberations, he is bound to take that lore. An upgrade to give a character loremastery is just that. An upgrade that gives your character something in addition to everything else.

B) His chosen lore means nothing more than a lore of his choice. There is absolutely nothing in the rule that says you have to take the lore you have mastery of. If it did, characters like Mannfred would have to take mastery of one of the lores they had access to.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 DarkStarSabre wrote:

 thedarkavenger wrote:

 DarkStarSabre wrote:
I love how this thread is three pages of this guy trying to draw straws.

If his interpretation is correct then how come it's NEVER come up at any tournaments since 8th edition came out? It hasn't. Not once. So better people than him have not tried to wrangle this half as hard.

Stop trying to justify cheating.

It's never come up because the slann is the first model that can buy loremastery.

And Slann have been able to do so since the start of 8th edition.

People didn't do it then. People don't do it now. You're still trying to justify this?

Because it was worded differently in the old book. It said, and this is word for word, that the slann chooses a single lore, and he knows all the spells from that lore. The wording means everything. The new book states that he has loremastery of high magic. The old book said he is a loremaster. The difference is subtle, but huge.

Reply by: Eihnlazer - click to view full reply 

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Lizardmen, party slann filth @ 2013/08/23 23:54:40

Post by: Eihnlazer

You guys are trying to bully him out of his argument now saying hes trying to cheat.


There is "nothing" in the rulebook that says if you have loremaster (high magic) purchased from an upgrade that you have to pick high magic as your lore.

The generic Loremaster USR does not have anything to do with a purchased Loremaster of a specific lore.

As per the rulebook, when taking a slann, you pick your lore and roll for 4 spells as normal. You also pay 35 points for loremaster (high magic) which means you know all high magic spells.


Thats it! Until its faq'd thats how it works. If you dont like it, houserule it out.

Fluff wise its correct, since Slann are the most powerful mages in the world, period.

Is the upgrade too cheap? Yes
Could it have been an oversight on the writers part? Yes

These 2 things have nothing to do with the RAW.

Reply by: FlingitNow - click to view full reply 

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Lizardmen, party slann filth @ 2013/08/24 06:35:40

Post by: FlingitNow

A) Yes it is an upgrade, it does not give him specific permission to take more than 1 Lore. Also Loremaster(High) does nothing for him if High is not his Lore. Its like saying an upgrade that makes someone always hit with his bow still gives you an auto bow hit every shooting phase if you choose to swap his bow out for another weapon. Please read Loremaster.
B) This is simply a lie. Please stop lying. As has been pointed out to you Mannfred has specific permission to have access to two lores. Something you have yet to provide for your Slaan.

Eihnlazer two things if purchasing the Loremaster USR has nothing to do with the Loremaster USR then it does nothing for him. Where are you getting Loremaster rules outside of the Loremaster rules? Plus he has admitted he is cheating and has said he knows that his interpretation is not the rules but that he believes it is RAW and therefore he's going to use it anyway. We have pointed out that it is not RAW and posted the rules relevant. He has not coming up with a single argument against what has been posted other than "nothing says I can't still pick Life as my Lore" a claim that we agree on.

Reply by: Eihnlazer - click to view full reply 

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Lizardmen, party slann filth @ 2013/08/24 07:51:28

Post by: Eihnlazer

Why do you keep saying Loremaster (high magic) does nothing if you take a different lore?


the specific Loremaster (high magic) that the slann buys is not the same as Loremaster (*) in the brb.

Loremaster (*) only refferences models that gain Loremaster (*). The * becomes their lore when they gain access to that special rule.

Loremaster (High Magic) is specifically that. It grants all the spells of high magic. It has NOTHING to do with the lore chosen by the slann.

All the arguments againgst us so far have been either:
A: Loremaster (high magic) does nothing if you pick a lore other than high magic. INCORRECT
B: Loremaster (high magic) forces you to pick high magic as your lore. INCORRECT


You have been wrong on all these accounts. Until you can prove otherwise you need to stop trying to forcefeed incorrect rules here.

Reply by: FlingitNow - click to view full reply 

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Lizardmen, party slann filth @ 2013/08/24 07:55:23

Post by: FlingitNow

A) where are you getting rules for Loremaster (High magic)? Page and paragraph please. I've posted where I'm getting my rules. Which you disagree with but haven't posted any rules to support your argument.

Reply by: Eihnlazer - click to view full reply 

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Lizardmen, party slann filth @ 2013/08/24 09:38:47

Post by: Eihnlazer

Loremaster (*) in the brb states, as you have put many times, that the caster knows all spells of his lore.

In other words, the (*) becomes whichever lore he picks. And whichever lore is inside the () is the lore he knows the spells of.

So, quite obviously, Loremaster (high magic), means he knows all spells from high magic.

This does not however mean that he HAS to choose high magic as his lore, or that if he chooses a lore other than high magic gains no spells from high magic.

Purchasing Lore Mastery specifically grants him, Loremaster (high magic). It does nothing else, nor states that he is required to have chosen the Lore of High magic before hand.



Also, youve certainly posted were you got your rules from, but you made up false interpretations of those rules to favor your argument so it doesnt mean a whole lot.

Reply by: FlingitNow - click to view full reply 

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Lizardmen, party slann filth @ 2013/08/24 09:47:20

Post by: FlingitNow

So, quite obviously, Loremaster (high magic), means he knows all spells from high magic

Citation please for Loremaster to grant him spells from something that isn't his lore. So basically you're admitting your using the Loremaster USR but picking and choosing which parts apply... that is not RAW.

Reply by: Son of Landuin - click to view full reply 

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Lizardmen, party slann filth @ 2013/08/24 09:56:33

Post by: Son of Landuin

What is the slanns chosen lore?
Life.
What does the rule state?
If your chosen lore is the one in the brackets, you all spells from that lore.
What does focus of mystery give you?
Loremaster (high magic).
Is high magic the slanns chosen lore?
No. It is life.
Will the slann get.any benifit for choosing a different lore than high magic if he takes focus of mystery?
No. He has wasted 35 points in taking a rule which will give him no benefit if he decides to choose a lore other than rhe lore in the brackets.

Simple.

Reply by: Eihnlazer - click to view full reply 

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Lizardmen, party slann filth @ 2013/08/24 10:48:17

Post by: Eihnlazer

*sigh

Ok, first off, i apologize if i sounded like a jerk in my earlier posts. I was just a bit frustrated that I failed to verbate in a way that was understandable.

I obviously cannot convince you of my case, so Im just gonna leave with a final question.



Do you fully believe that as written there is no room for disagreement on this issue?

I personally feel that until this is clarified in a FAQ that the issue will be argued either way.

Reply by: thedarkavenger - click to view full reply 

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Lizardmen, party slann filth @ 2013/08/24 13:50:28

Post by: thedarkavenger

 FlingitNow wrote:

So, quite obviously, Loremaster (high magic), means he knows all spells from high magic

Citation please for Loremaster to grant him spells from something that isn't his lore. So basically you're admitting your using the Loremaster USR but picking and choosing which parts apply... that is not RAW.

Please, point me to where loremaster limits you to using a single lore. Because, unless your rulebook is different to mine, it doesn't. The rule is written because it is written for characters who have the loremaster USR on their profile. Which means they are limited to a single lore. But, because a slann doesn't have that rule, but upgrades to it, he maintains his original spells simply because he upgrades to become one.

Reply by: FlingitNow - click to view full reply 

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Lizardmen, party slann filth @ 2013/08/24 14:28:12

Post by: FlingitNow

Why does it need to say Loremaster means you can only take 1 lore? I've never stated it says that. If you want to choose 2 Lores to be your lores you NEED permission. Where is your permission to choose 2 lores?

No the rule is written as a USR that either a model has or he gets from some rule or wargear. You are just ignoring large chunks of the rule because they don't allow you to do something that you want to claim is RAW when it is not.

Reply by: thedarkavenger - click to view full reply 

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Lizardmen, party slann filth @ 2013/08/24 14:31:20

Post by: thedarkavenger

 FlingitNow wrote:
Why does it need to say Loremaster means you can only take 1 lore? I've never stated it says that. If you want to choose 2 Lores to be your lores you NEED permission. Where is your permission to choose 2 lores?

No the rule is written as a USR that either a model has or he gets from some rule or wargear. You are just ignoring large chunks of the rule because they don't allow you to do something that you want to claim is RAW when it is not.

As per the rule, he picks a lore, and uses it. If he has access to other lores, I.E. Slann with focus of Mystgery, he can use that lores, as the rule does not limit you to one lore. And as he knows both lores, he can cast spells from both lores.

Reply by: FlingitNow - click to view full reply 

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Lizardmen, party slann filth @ 2013/08/24 14:52:06

Post by: FlingitNow

Where are you getting he knows both lores from? Where are yougetting ppermission to pick 2 lores?

Reply by: HRZ - click to view full reply 

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Lizardmen, party slann filth @ 2013/08/24 15:52:46

Post by: HRZ

The wording of Loremaster is pretty clear.

If you take it step by step, the first thing you do is pick a lore. If you choose Life or anything but High, then the Focus of Mystery is just wasted points as it only gives you the Loremaster special rule IF AND ONLY IF you choose High. If you were to pull what you're trying to pull with my gaming group, you'd have your slaan shoved down your throat.


Now as to the op and his list, please, please, give us a batrep once you play a match...

Reply by: thedarkavenger - click to view full reply 

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Lizardmen, party slann filth @ 2013/08/24 16:41:12

Post by: thedarkavenger

HRZ wrote:
The wording of Loremaster is pretty clear.

If you take it step by step, the first thing you do is pick a lore. If you choose Life or anything but High, then the Focus of Mystery is just wasted points as it only gives you the Loremaster special rule IF AND ONLY IF you choose High. If you were to pull what you're trying to pull with my gaming group, you'd have your slaan shoved down your throat.


Now as to the op and his list, please, please, give us a batrep once you play a match...

The lore master doesn't actually say any of that. It says he knows all the spells from a lore of his choice. So he picks a lore, and knows all the spells from it. Now. It doesn't say anything about having to use that lore. Which means, if, and only if, you can obtain loremaster in addition to your spells, you can access both.

Reply by: FlingitNow - click to view full reply 

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Lizardmen, party slann filth @ 2013/08/24 17:55:43

Post by: FlingitNow

 thedarkavenger wrote:

HRZ wrote:
The wording of Loremaster is pretty clear.

If you take it step by step, the first thing you do is pick a lore. If you choose Life or anything but High, then the Focus of Mystery is just wasted points as it only gives you the Loremaster special rule IF AND ONLY IF you choose High. If you were to pull what you're trying to pull with my gaming group, you'd have your slaan shoved down your throat.


Now as to the op and his list, please, please, give us a batrep once you play a match...

The lore master doesn't actually say any of that. It says he knows all the spells from a lore of his choice. So he picks a lore, and knows all the spells from it. Now. It doesn't say anything about having to use that lore. Which means, if, and only if, you can obtain loremaster in addition to your spells, you can access both.

I think you need to read Loremaster again it doesn't say what you think it does.the underlined is not correct. It is not a lore of his choice. It is his chosen lore (i.e. the lore he generates his spells from). A wizard's chosen lore has a definite meaning in the rules and it is the lore you choose on your army list. If that is not High Magic then Loremaster (High Magic) does nothing for you.

Reply by: thedarkavenger - click to view full reply 

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Lizardmen, party slann filth @ 2013/08/24 18:41:51

Post by: thedarkavenger

 FlingitNow wrote:

 thedarkavenger wrote:

HRZ wrote:
The wording of Loremaster is pretty clear.

If you take it step by step, the first thing you do is pick a lore. If you choose Life or anything but High, then the Focus of Mystery is just wasted points as it only gives you the Loremaster special rule IF AND ONLY IF you choose High. If you were to pull what you're trying to pull with my gaming group, you'd have your slaan shoved down your throat.


Now as to the op and his list, please, please, give us a batrep once you play a match...

The lore master doesn't actually say any of that. It says he knows all the spells from a lore of his choice. So he picks a lore, and knows all the spells from it. Now. It doesn't say anything about having to use that lore. Which means, if, and only if, you can obtain loremaster in addition to your spells, you can access both.

I think you need to read Loremaster again it doesn't say what you think it does.the underlined is not correct. It is not a lore of his choice. It is his chosen lore (i.e. the lore he generates his spells from). A wizard's chosen lore has a definite meaning in the rules and it is the lore you choose on your army list. If that is not High Magic then Loremaster (High Magic) does nothing for you.

It means exactly what I said it does. The words his chosen lore. are exactly the same as a lore of his choice.

Reply by: FlingitNow - click to view full reply 

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Lizardmen, party slann filth @ 2013/08/24 20:17:54

Post by: FlingitNow

No it does not. His chosen lore has a specific meaning in Warhammer. You need to read up the magic rules and spell generation rules. Even in basic English they have different meanings as "his chosen lore" means very much a singular and exclusive set, a lore of his choice means any lore from a selection.

You admit your interpretation isn't RaI. It has proven to not be clear RAW (or indeed any RAW) so why even bother continuing arguing unless you're desperate to cheat?

Reply by: alex87 - click to view full reply 

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Lizardmen, party slann filth @ 2013/08/25 10:52:14

Post by: alex87

The fact that the OP has conceded that this is not how the rule is intended and admits that this is essentially taking advantage of a set of rules that is not completely watertight says it all. As far as I'm concerned that is cheating. You will struggle to find opponents that will allow this.

Reply by: mixer86 - click to view full reply 

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Lizardmen, party slann filth @ 2013/08/25 14:02:51

Post by: mixer86

alex87 wrote:
The fact that the OP has conceded that this is not how the rule is intended and admits that this is essentially taking advantage of a set of rules that is not completely watertight says it all. As far as I'm concerned that is cheating. You will struggle to find opponents that will allow this.

Sums it up for me.

Reply by: The Real Slann Shady - click to view full reply 

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Lizardmen, party slann filth @ 2013/08/25 14:26:46

Post by: The Real Slann Shady

Off topic from the slann, I think terradons are useless compared to the potential damage output of ripperdactyls I would switch them out if I were you.

Reply by: HawaiiMatt - click to view full reply 

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Lizardmen, party slann filth @ 2013/08/25 15:12:10

Post by: HawaiiMatt

The Real Slann Shady wrote:
Off topic from the slann, I think terradons are useless compared to the potential damage output of ripperdactyls I would switch them out if I were you.

Rippers are really only better against the toaded unit.
Terradons get the boost via rock drop, which you can do on any unit.

I really don't think either is very good, and both are largely situational based on what they are paired off against.
That said, I'd go with chiefs on rippers and units of terradons.
The cheap 2+ armor of the chief makes him a nice support unit, and units of terradons do a good job at chaff clearing.

-Matt

Reply by: thedarkavenger - click to view full reply 

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Lizardmen, party slann filth @ 2013/08/25 19:58:48

Post by: thedarkavenger

alex87 wrote:
The fact that the OP has conceded that this is not how the rule is intended and admits that this is essentially taking advantage of a set of rules that is not completely watertight says it all. As far as I'm concerned that is cheating. You will struggle to find opponents that will allow this.

When have I conceded anything? I am merely stating that a rule does not say something which other people are saying it does. His chosen lore means that he picks a lore and knows all spells from it, nothing about having to use that lore. If he had to pick A lore, then characters with loremastery of multiple lores wouldn't work.

You can rule it the way you want, but as per the wording of the BRB, and the fact that the only discipline that explicitly stops you from rolling for spells is Wandering Deliberations, it works as allowing you to keep your four spells as well as loremastery of high magic.

Reply by: alex87 - click to view full reply 

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Lizardmen, party slann filth @ 2013/08/25 22:06:53

Post by: alex87

 thedarkavenger wrote:
When have I conceded anything?

Right here.

 thedarkavenger wrote:
Whilst I do agree it shouldn't work like that, with the current wording of the book. It does.

You are abusing a poorly worded rule despite admittingly knowing it is not how the rule is intended to be played. Call it cheating, call it poor sportmanship, call it whatever you like. You understand how the rule is intended to be played yet clearly have no qualms with applying it in a way which grants you an advantage on the grounds that it is not explicitly defined as illegal.

Reply by: FlingitNow - click to view full reply 

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Lizardmen, party slann filth @ 2013/08/25 23:59:38

Post by: FlingitNow

 thedarkavenger wrote:

alex87 wrote:
The fact that the OP has conceded that this is not how the rule is intended and admits that this is essentially taking advantage of a set of rules that is not completely watertight says it all. As far as I'm concerned that is cheating. You will struggle to find opponents that will allow this.

When have I conceded anything? I am merely stating that a rule does not say something which other people are saying it does. His chosen lore means that he picks a lore and knows all spells from it, nothing about having to use that lore. If he had to pick A lore, then characters with loremastery of multiple lores wouldn't work.

You can rule it the way you want, but as per the wording of the BRB, and the fact that the only discipline that explicitly stops you from rolling for spells is Wandering Deliberations, it works as allowing you to keep your four spells as well as loremastery of high magic.

Basically this whole thing is made up. The rules state you pick A lore which is the same as 1 lore. That's how English works. You need permission to take multiple lores. You have none, characters with multiple lores have permission to have multiple lores that is why they work.

You ignore RAW, you admit you are ignoring RAI. You keep saying stuff that is either irrelevant or already been disproven. You come up with no counter arguments just repeating irrelevance and debunked stuff...

Reply by: RiTides - click to view full reply 

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Lizardmen, party slann filth @ 2013/08/26 00:15:28

Post by: RiTides

 feluca wrote:
I'm sorry, aren't we supposed to discuss army lists? I'm sure there are various topics adressing this very question.

As I said before, your list lacks damage output, and it would not be wise to rely completely on magic, wether it is with 12 or with 8 spells. Get some heavy hitters is my advise.

Agreed! One "real" unit just isn't going to cut it, imo.

Reply by: alex87 - click to view full reply 

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Lizardmen, party slann filth @ 2013/08/26 00:33:11

Post by: alex87

 FlingitNow wrote:
You need permission to take multiple lores. You have none, characters with multiple lores have permission to have multiple lores that is why they work.

Agree completely. This is where the argument of the OP falls down.
Manfredd and the old Fateweaver (havent read the new DoC book) come to mind here and in both these cases they have VERY specific permission to take multiple lores. Slanns do not, with or without this discipline. Why would it be left for players to connect the dots based upon what isnt written (as opposed to what is) for this rule to be applied.

Reply by: thedarkavenger - click to view full reply 

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Lizardmen, party slann filth @ 2013/08/26 14:50:26

Post by: thedarkavenger

 FlingitNow wrote:

 thedarkavenger wrote:

alex87 wrote:
The fact that the OP has conceded that this is not how the rule is intended and admits that this is essentially taking advantage of a set of rules that is not completely watertight says it all. As far as I'm concerned that is cheating. You will struggle to find opponents that will allow this.

When have I conceded anything? I am merely stating that a rule does not say something which other people are saying it does. His chosen lore means that he picks a lore and knows all spells from it, nothing about having to use that lore. If he had to pick A lore, then characters with loremastery of multiple lores wouldn't work.

You can rule it the way you want, but as per the wording of the BRB, and the fact that the only discipline that explicitly stops you from rolling for spells is Wandering Deliberations, it works as allowing you to keep your four spells as well as loremastery of high magic.

Basically this whole thing is made up. The rules state you pick A lore which is the same as 1 lore. That's how English works. You need permission to take multiple lores. You have none, characters with multiple lores have permission to have multiple lores that is why they work.

You ignore RAW, you admit you are ignoring RAI. You keep saying stuff that is either irrelevant or already been disproven. You come up with no counter arguments just repeating irrelevance and debunked stuff...

A) His chosen directly translates to a choice of his, which means his chosen lore translates directly to a lore of his choice. So he picks a lore and knows all the spells from it. Loremaster says nothing about that becoming your only lore if you can obtain it at another point to the character rules section, like a slann.

B- Using Mannfred as an example, he has permission to use spells from both, but as stated in point A, a character who obtains loremaster as an upgrade, will be able to access it and his normal spells due to it being an upgrade, and loremaster not overriding spell generation, as well as having loremastery of lore x.

C- RAI, it should override, RAW, it doesn't. I believe I've explained it in the simplest fashion I can, and if that isn't clear, then we'll have to agree to disagree.

Reply by: RiTides - click to view full reply 

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Lizardmen, party slann filth @ 2013/08/26 16:29:01

Post by: RiTides

Why bother making a list hinging on that reading, though? Any tourney organizer you ask about it (as you should) before playing will likely house rule it, and GW will likely FAQ it out of existence soon, anyway.

Regardless, further discussion about it probably deserves it's own thread in YMDC, since it's gone on for pages here already and this really isn't the section for it.

Reply by: FlingitNow - click to view full reply 

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Lizardmen, party slann filth @ 2013/08/26 17:36:18

Post by: FlingitNow

A) His chosen Lore has a specific meaning in the rules. So stop ignoring the rules. Plus if High is his chosen lore where are you getting permission to also pick Life? Picking a spell lore is defined in the BRB please point to where the Slaan gets exemption to these rules?
B)No without access to either Lore of Vampires or Death Mannfred would gain nothing from his duel lore mastery. That is why he has a specific exemption to the usual method of picking A spell lore.
C) RAW doesn't work. RAW if you ignore lots rules and play by a Loremaster RAI as you choose it then take Focus of Mystery at RAW you can just about justify on a nothing says I can't (except a few rules in the BRB)...

Reply by: thedarkavenger - click to view full reply 

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Lizardmen, party slann filth @ 2013/08/26 19:28:33

Post by: thedarkavenger

 FlingitNow wrote:
A) His chosen Lore has a specific meaning in the rules. So stop ignoring the rules. Plus if High is his chosen lore where are you getting permission to also pick Life? Picking a spell lore is defined in the BRB please point to where the Slaan gets exemption to these rules?

The slaan gains exemption when he purchases loremaster, because loremaster does not force you to use that lore. So suddenly, a slann has access to high and lore x from the rulebook.

As I pointed out, it literally translates to a lore of his choice, so he picks a lore and knows all the spells from it. Hence, if a model has access to loremaster y and lore x, they would know all of lore y, and z numbers of lore x.

 FlingitNow wrote:

B)No without access to either Lore of Vampires or Death Mannfred would gain nothing from his duel lore mastery. That is why he has a specific exemption to the usual method of picking A spell lore.

He doesn't. His character page says he uses spells from both, but he has loremastery of both, with no special rule for it. If we go by your definition of loremaster, he would need to pick one.

 FlingitNow wrote:

C) RAW doesn't work. RAW if you ignore lots rules and play by a Loremaster RAI as you choose it then take Focus of Mystery at RAW you can just about justify on a nothing says I can't (except a few rules in the BRB)...

There are no rules in the BRB to support your argument that loremaster limits you to one lore. It only says that he picks a lore and knows all spells from it. If it was in the character's special rules, then it would be the only lore he knows, but if he purcghases it as an upgrade, he would know it as well as his normal lore.

I.E. Tetto'Ekko has Loremastery of heavens in his rules. A Slaan doesn't, therefore Tetto'Ekko knows heavens spells, whislt a loremaster high slann would know spells from high and whatever lore he chooses.

Reply by: FlingitNow - click to view full reply 

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Lizardmen, party slann filth @ 2013/08/26 21:27:03

Post by: FlingitNow

A) yes Loremaster doesn't force him to make High the lore of his choice. But if High is not his chosen lore then Loremaster does not give him the eight spells from it. Stop ignoring what the rules define as a wizard's lore.

B) Read Mannfred's rules. He uses spells from BOTH Vampires and Death. What lore(s) does a Slaan use spells from? To me "Lore of High Magic OR ONE of the eight Lores" means only 1 Lore. Please show where your permission is to choose 2 Lores here.

C) Stop lying. Stop saying I have an argument I have NEVER made. Stop saying Loremaster states he picks a lore and knows all the spells from it as it does not state that. Why does paying points make the rule work differently? Please quote the rule that states this as this is a claim you've made a few times with no RAW support (just like the rest of your argument).

Reply by: thedarkavenger - click to view full reply 

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Lizardmen, party slann filth @ 2013/08/27 06:08:54

Post by: thedarkavenger

 FlingitNow wrote:
A) yes Loremaster doesn't force him to make High the lore of his choice. But if High is not his chosen lore then Loremaster does not give him the eight spells from it. Stop ignoring what the rules define as a wizard's lore.

B) Read Mannfred's rules. He uses spells from BOTH Vampires and Death. What lore(s) does a Slaan use spells from? To me "Lore of High Magic OR ONE of the eight Lores" means only 1 Lore. Please show where your permission is to choose 2 Lores here.

C) Stop lying. Stop saying I have an argument I have NEVER made. Stop saying Loremaster states he picks a lore and knows all the spells from it as it does not state that. Why does paying points make the rule work differently? Please quote the rule that states this as this is a claim you've made a few times with no RAW support (just like the rest of your argument).

A. I've already said this. His chosen lore directly translates to a lore of his choice. Stop mistranslating a sentence in order to try and prove a point.

B. If he has to use a lore he has loremastery of, under your definition, he has to choose one, as he has no rule that overrides loremaster. But he doesn't work like that because loremaster means that he chooses a lore and knows it all. If a character can purchase x number of loremasteries, thebln he could know x number of lores. Likewise, if a character purchases loremaster in addition to generating 4 spells, he can access both lores, because his chosen lore is the lore he rolled 4 spells from, and h is a loremaster of the other.
C. Your argument that I RAW that I have to use high is what I'm trying to disprove. And everything I have quoted comes from this thread. And yes loremaster does state what I said it dos because what I'm saying it states is the literal translation. So, RAW loremaster works his way, not rcing you to use it, untik gw faq it.

Reply by: canadianguy - click to view full reply 

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Lizardmen, party slann filth @ 2013/08/27 08:46:11

Post by: canadianguy

Is English your first language?
He knows all the high magic spells end of story. It isn't loremaster high and something of your choice. Please, please try this at any tournie it will never fly!
Remeber it is a permissive rule set where do you get to take 2 lores?

Reply by: FlingitNow - click to view full reply 

22508

Lizardmen, party slann filth @ 2013/08/27 10:11:57

Post by: FlingitNow

A. Read the rules a wizards chosen lore is defined. Stop ignoring rules when trying to claim RAW. Show that Loremaster means you get to select a second lore.

B. Again with the lies. How many times do I have to tell you that I have NEVER said that Loremaster (High) means you have to take High as your lore, your entire argument is hinged on fighting against this claim, despite me never making it. This illustrates that you know you are wrong because you have to lie about my argument in order to counter it. Loremaster (x) gives you all the spells from (x) if x is the wizard's lore. What is Mannfred's lore? Well we are told both Vampires and Death are his lores. Therefore Loremaster (Vampires) means he knows all the spells from Vampires, AND Loremaster (death) means he knows all the spells from Death. If he didn't have that specific exemption to have both Vampires & Death as his lore then RAW Loremaster (Vampires/Death) would only trigger for the lore he chose.

C. Well you claim that Loremaster works different when purchased as an upgrade rather than as a USR you need to back that claim up. You have failed to do so. You are saying you can select 2 lores for a Slaan without any permission to do so. Prove that Loremaster gives you permission to select a 2nd lore

Reply by: thedarkavenger - click to view full reply 

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Lizardmen, party slann filth @ 2013/08/27 16:16:40

Post by: thedarkavenger

 FlingitNow wrote:
A. Read the rules a wizards chosen lore is defined. Stop ignoring rules when trying to claim RAW. Show that Loremaster means you get to select a second lore.

B. Again with the lies. How many times do I have to tell you that I have NEVER said that Loremaster (High) means you have to take High as your lore, your entire argument is hinged on fighting against this claim, despite me never making it. This illustrates that you know you are wrong because you have to lie about my argument in order to counter it. Loremaster (x) gives you all the spells from (x) if x is the wizard's lore. What is Mannfred's lore? Well we are told both Vampires and Death are his lores. Therefore Loremaster (Vampires) means he knows all the spells from Vampires, AND Loremaster (death) means he knows all the spells from Death. If he didn't have that specific exemption to have both Vampires & Death as his lore then RAW Loremaster (Vampires/Death) would only trigger for the lore he chose.

C. Well you claim that Loremaster works different when purchased as an upgrade rather than as a USR you need to back that claim up. You have failed to do so. You are saying you can select 2 lores for a Slaan without any permission to do so. Prove that Loremaster gives you permission to select a 2nd lore

A. It's defined as a lore of your choice. As per the reference section, where it states that your chosen lore is the lore you chose. Which is exactly what I've been arguing. Loremaster of any lore would give you all the spells from that lore. The rule does not even hint at that becoming your only lore. The only time loremaster is your only lore is if the character has it as a USR on their page. Like Tetto'Ekko, or Mazdamundi.

B. If you can find where loremaster says you have to use x as your lore I would be very happy. As, having looked at loremaster, there is no hinting at that. The rule states that the wizard knows all the spells of his chosen lore. NOTHING about it overriding spell generation. UNLESS, it is written into the character's special rules. I.E. Mannfred, Mazdamundi and Tetto'Ekko.

C. See points A & B.


The spell generation page states that a wizard knows whatever spells he rolls. The loremastery page states that he picks a lore and knows all the spells, nothing about it overriding his lore choice, UNLESS it is written into his character page, as then he has the loremaster rule apply to his lore choice. A slann doesn't, however, so may pick a lore and generate 4 spells from it as well as knowing all of high magic.

Reply by: FlingitNow - click to view full reply 

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Lizardmen, party slann filth @ 2013/08/27 16:25:37

Post by: FlingitNow

Are you being deliberately stupid? Sorry but you're arguing irrelevance again. Please argue against the points I've made or concede stating irrelevant facts that we both agree on is not helpful.

It's defined as a lore of your choice. As per the reference section, where it states that your chosen lore is the lore you chose. Which is exactly what I've been arguing. Loremaster of any lore would give you all the spells from that lore (if that lore is the lore chosen as stated above).

Part in brackets added as was emphasis by me. All of this is true. So if you chose "Life" to be your chosen lore in your army list. Then Loremaster (High), by what you have stated above, does nothing for you as High is not your chosen lore.

Reply by: thedarkavenger - click to view full reply 

57471

Lizardmen, party slann filth @ 2013/08/27 16:54:26

Post by: thedarkavenger

 FlingitNow wrote:
Are you being deliberately stupid? Sorry but you're arguing irrelevance again. Please argue against the points I've made or concede stating irrelevant facts that we both agree on is not helpful.

It's defined as a lore of your choice. As per the reference section, where it states that your chosen lore is the lore you chose. Which is exactly what I've been arguing. Loremaster of any lore would give you all the spells from that lore (if that lore is the lore chosen as stated above).

Part in brackets added as was emphasis by me. All of this is true. So if you chose "Life" to be your chosen lore in your army list. Then Loremaster (High), by what you have stated above, does nothing for you as High is not your chosen lore.

His chosen lore is life, this is true, which means that he generates the spells he knows from that lore. The rules also state that he generates spells from one lore, but as generation is done by rolling dice, loremastery doesn't count as generatyion. He automatically knows those spells, so he can use them. This means he knows 4 spells from life. Loremaster also means that he knows 8 spells from high.

Therefore, the fact that he knows all those spells means that he can indeed use them.

If a spell is not generated randomly, it can be used any number of times a per the bullet point at the bottom of p. 490. Therefore, as slann could even be a level 4 high mage as well as a loremaster of high magic.

Reply by: FlingitNow - click to view full reply 

22508

Lizardmen, party slann filth @ 2013/08/27 17:18:52

Post by: FlingitNow

His chosen lore is life, this is true, which means that he generates the spells he knows from that lore. The rules also state that he generates spells from one lore, but as generation is done by rolling dice, loremastery doesn't count as generatyion. He automatically knows those spells, so he can use them. This means he knows 4 spells from life. Loremaster also means that he knows 8 spells from high

But unless High is his chosen lore Loremaster does not grant him any spells. That is what Loremaster states something you keep ignoring.

Also Loremastery does count as spell generation as it states you know the spells instead of rolling for them. It tells you it is replacing spell generation.

Reply by: thedarkavenger - click to view full reply 

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Lizardmen, party slann filth @ 2013/08/27 17:24:54

Post by: thedarkavenger

 FlingitNow wrote:

His chosen lore is life, this is true, which means that he generates the spells he knows from that lore. The rules also state that he generates spells from one lore, but as generation is done by rolling dice, loremastery doesn't count as generatyion. He automatically knows those spells, so he can use them. This means he knows 4 spells from life. Loremaster also means that he knows 8 spells from high

But unless High is his chosen lore Loremaster does not grant him any spells. That is what Loremaster states something you keep ignoring.

Also Loremastery does count as spell generation as it states you know the spells instead of rolling for them. It tells you it is replacing spell generation.

His chosen lore is a lore of his choice, even the wizard section in the reference part of the BRB confirms that.

And loremaster says he knows all the spells from his chosen lore, and he doesn't neecd to roll. And as generation is described as rolling for spells, loremaster does not replace spell generation, unless loremaster is written into a character page, because writing it into a character page is the ONLY WAY loremaster becomes a character's only lore.

Reply by: FlingitNow - click to view full reply 

22508

Lizardmen, party slann filth @ 2013/08/27 18:03:46

Post by: FlingitNow

His chosen lore is a lore of his choice, even the wizard section in the reference part of the BRB confirms that.

It also tells you how a wizard chooses his lore. Which in your case is Life, but for Loremaster to grant spells it needs to be high...

unless loremaster is written into a character page, because writing it into a character page is the ONLY WAY loremaster becomes a character's only lore.

A) Why is this relevant? Why does it even matter?
B) citation please...

Reply by: thedarkavenger - click to view full reply 

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Lizardmen, party slann filth @ 2013/08/27 21:54:52

Post by: thedarkavenger

 FlingitNow wrote:

His chosen lore is a lore of his choice, even the wizard section in the reference part of the BRB confirms that.

It also tells you how a wizard chooses his lore. Which in your case is Life, but for Loremaster to grant spells it needs to be high...

It doesn't though? Loremaster states that he picks a lore, and automatically knows all the spells. The rule also states that he can cast any spell he knows.

 FlingitNow wrote:

unless loremaster is written into a character page, because writing it into a character page is the ONLY WAY loremaster becomes a character's only lore.

A) Why is this relevant? Why does it even matter?
B) citation please...

When loremaster is written on a character page, it is as his lore, hence he uses it. But when a slann chooses a lore, he does that in addition to loremaster, so he knows 12 spells which he is able to cast.

Reply by: FlingitNow - click to view full reply 

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Lizardmen, party slann filth @ 2013/08/27 22:06:23

Post by: FlingitNow

It doesn't though? Loremaster states that he picks a lore, and automatically knows all the spells

Loremaster does not state this. Please use what the rules actually say. It states his chosen lore, the rules tell us how a wizards pucks his chosen lore. If you have Loremaster (High) but chose High ad your lore then you don't know all the spells from High.

When loremaster is written on a character page, it is as his lore, hence he uses it. But when a slann chooses a lore, he does that in addition to loremaster, so he knows 12 spells which he is able to cast.

So basically you're saying your "ONLY WAY" statement is just based on some anecdotal evidence that it is a way and you're not even willing to supply that. Nor have you been able to state why it is at all relevant to our discussion (because it's not).

Reply by: thedarkavenger - click to view full reply 

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Lizardmen, party slann filth @ 2013/08/27 22:24:56

Post by: thedarkavenger

 FlingitNow wrote:

It doesn't though? Loremaster states that he picks a lore, and automatically knows all the spells

Loremaster does not state this. Please use what the rules actually say. It states his chosen lore, the rules tell us how a wizards pucks his chosen lore. If you have Loremaster (High) but chose High ad your lore then you don't know all the spells from High.

When loremaster is written on a character page, it is as his lore, hence he uses it. But when a slann chooses a lore, he does that in addition to loremaster, so he knows 12 spells which he is able to cast.

So basically you're saying your "ONLY WAY" statement is just based on some anecdotal evidence that it is a way and you're not even willing to supply that. Nor have you been able to state why it is at all relevant to our discussion (because it's not).

The rules tell us that the wizards chosen lore is the lore that he generates spells from, and that spells are generated by rolling dice. Without the rolling dice part, you don't generate spells, therefore loremaster cannot come into effect. See P. 490.

It is. Because loremaster neither states that it has to be your only lore, nor that it overrides spell generation. See page 490 for more information on how spells are generated.

Reply by: disty - click to view full reply 

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Lizardmen, party slann filth @ 2013/08/27 22:32:06

Post by: disty

Ok, this thread really needs to be moved to YMDC.

I can see both sides of the argument, although I feel only one has any tangible (by which I mean gaming) credibility.

thedarkavenger: Whilst I appreciate your argument and see a certain RAW glimmer within in, it's a moot point at best. I can't imagine any casual game, let alone a tournament, that would let you abuse ambiguous ruling to such an extent.

Whilst I hope this gets resolved I can't see GW FAQing something so niche. If anything, this would come down to tournament level decision making, and if somehow it got passed I imagine it would instantly label you TFG.

Reply by: FlingitNow - click to view full reply 

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Lizardmen, party slann filth @ 2013/08/27 22:43:09

Post by: FlingitNow

Have you read Loremaster? Yes normally you roll for spells during spell generation. Loremaster tells you to do something instead of this. But it is still spell generation. It references your chosen lore and tells you not to roll for spells instead you know all the spells from that lore.

It is. Because loremaster neither states that it has to be your only lore, nor that it overrides spell generation. See page 490 for more information on how spells are generated.

So the first part I assume is you admitting it is irrelevant as I have to tell you yet again that I have NEVER stated Loremaster tells you it has to be your only lore. If you make that argument again I'll take it as you conceding. Then the claim that it doesn't over ride spell generation is a lie as the rules have been posted that prove otherwise "knows all the spells from his chosen lore - he does not need to roll randomly".

So if you claim Loremaster does not over ride spell generation then all wizards have to roll for their spells when they are Loremasters... Please stop making irrelevant statement or posting lies as I will take that as you conceding if you do it again.

Now do you have any actual rules to back up your "RAW" claim?

Reply by: mixer86 - click to view full reply 

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Lizardmen, party slann filth @ 2013/08/29 07:20:18

Post by: mixer86

I think you should go for it.

I would personally find it funny to watch you drop £300+ on the list then turn up anywhere to be told by everyone "of course you can't have 12 spells!"

You can then argue your point to your hearts content with yourself while everyone else enjoys a game because there is no way anyone will let you play it that way.

Reply by: thedarkavenger - click to view full reply 

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Lizardmen, party slann filth @ 2013/08/29 16:51:58

Post by: thedarkavenger

It's clear that nobody here will persuade the other, so, as to not to continue this pointless argument, let's agree to wait until the FAQ comes out to settle it.

Reply by: HawaiiMatt - click to view full reply 

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Lizardmen, party slann filth @ 2013/08/29 20:11:44

Post by: HawaiiMatt

Yeah, lets get back to the point at hand.
If the FAQ says you get 12 spells, this is still a sub-par list.
It needs more damage output.

-Matt

Reply by: thedarkavenger - click to view full reply 

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Lizardmen, party slann filth @ 2013/08/31 07:15:10

Post by: thedarkavenger

HawaiiMatt wrote:
Yeah, lets get back to the point at hand.
If the FAQ says you get 12 spells, this is still a sub-par list.
It needs more damage output.

-Matt

In the hypothetical scenario of me actually building this list, I'd say it has the damage output.

I have dwellers, and in the early game I a couple of spells out to death. The ideal roll being me getting the better snipes.

Then I roll another spell, and roll on metal, ideally getting Final Transmutation.

This leaves me with four spells. All of these get traded out for light so I then get the buffs.


This gives me the buffs to make saurus half decent, and the spells to make my opponent come to me.

Reply by: Eihnlazer - click to view full reply 

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Lizardmen, party slann filth @ 2013/08/31 08:35:29

Post by: Eihnlazer

It is a waiting game list, and as such will loose to armies that can beat on you from across the table.

fast armies such as wood elves, and potentially ogres and skaven (with outflanking) will also get to you before you get the buffs you want.

Reply by: Son of Landuin - click to view full reply 

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Lizardmen, party slann filth @ 2013/08/31 18:30:26

Post by: Son of Landuin

Still, a bad magic phase could ruin everything though.

Reply by: thedarkavenger - click to view full reply 

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Lizardmen, party slann filth @ 2013/08/31 18:39:00

Post by: thedarkavenger

 Son of Landuin wrote:
Still, a bad magic phase could ruin everything though.

It could. But there are ways around that. For example, level 1 with the forbidden rod and double troglodon.

Reply by: HawaiiMatt - click to view full reply 

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Lizardmen, party slann filth @ 2013/08/31 18:56:55

Post by: HawaiiMatt

 Son of Landuin wrote:
Still, a bad magic phase could ruin everything though.

I think the cycling spells is really being over-estimated for what it does.
With no extra power dice or casting bonus or buffs, this slaan is no more effective than a empire wizard.
@ 415 points, most armies can run 2 wizard lords.
From my experience, even with 5 channels (3 on a 5+, 2 on a 6+), and storing a dispel die to use as a power die, I'm at best getting 1 or 2 spells off per turn.
Furthermore, lacking skink priests for extra range, you're going to have to throw at boosted levels for more range or get close with the nuke spells.
What I'd expect to see happen is see the slaan get off 1 minor spell, and have his big spell shut down, with at least 1 magic phase being shut down due to crappy dice and or dispel scroll.

If you think a level 4 with 3 channels on a 6 is awesome, then empire with 2 wizard lords and a warrior priest would be single hand crushing the enemy.
If you're doing a heavy magic list, go with the +1 to channel and store a die, along with a priest or two for additional range and targeting, as well as packing more arcane items.
All out, add Tetto'eko for the ability to re-roll casting dice.

-Matt

Reply by: thedarkavenger - click to view full reply 

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Lizardmen, party slann filth @ 2013/08/31 19:29:04

Post by: thedarkavenger

 HawaiiMatt wrote:

 Son of Landuin wrote:
Still, a bad magic phase could ruin everything though.

I think the cycling spells is really being over-estimated for what it does.
With no extra power dice or casting bonus or buffs, this slaan is no more effective than a empire wizard.
@ 415 points, most armies can run 2 wizard lords.
From my experience, even with 5 channels (3 on a 5+, 2 on a 6+), and storing a dispel die to use as a power die, I'm at best getting 1 or 2 spells off per turn.
Furthermore, lacking skink priests for extra range, you're going to have to throw at boosted levels for more range or get close with the nuke spells.
What I'd expect to see happen is see the slaan get off 1 minor spell, and have his big spell shut down, with at least 1 magic phase being shut down due to crappy dice and or dispel scroll.

If you think a level 4 with 3 channels on a 6 is awesome, then empire with 2 wizard lords and a warrior priest would be single hand crushing the enemy.
If you're doing a heavy magic list, go with the +1 to channel and store a die, along with a priest or two for additional range and targeting, as well as packing more arcane items.
All out, add Tetto'eko for the ability to re-roll casting dice.

-Matt

The list was an experiment with calculating how much raw magical power a slann could have.

I'm now toying with a Gor Rok star. All your points in a single unit with 2 slann, one on beasts and one on light/life/death. Then you curse the main threat, on the turn they get to charging you. If they're frenzied, better. That way, when they make charge, they take a dangerous terrain test which they fail on a 1/2. And when they make contact, they take another, which they fail on a 1/2 or 3.

It's a gimmick, but I'm interested to see if I can make it work.

Reply by: HawaiiMatt - click to view full reply 

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Lizardmen, party slann filth @ 2013/08/31 19:35:39

Post by: HawaiiMatt

 thedarkavenger wrote:

I'm now toying with a Gor Rok star. All your points in a single unit with 2 slann, one on beasts and one on light/life/death. Then you curse the main threat, on the turn they get to charging you. If they're frenzied, better. That way, when they make charge, they take a dangerous terrain test which they fail on a 1/2. And when they make contact, they take another, which they fail on a 1/2 or 3.
It's a gimmick, but I'm interested to see if I can make it work.

If opponent is frenzied, throw 10-12 cohorts into it, 2 wide, and hex it. When you lose combat and run, you kill ~1/3 the unit with the curse.
If you're going double slaan, I'd double down on temple guard, and take Gor Rok leading a saurus block. Hell, throw in a saurus hero with the crown of command. That'd give you 4 stubborn units. That shold give you plenty of time to get off a few good magic phases.
Maybe go shadow and life, hoping for dwellers and mindrazor.

-Matt

Reply by: thedarkavenger - click to view full reply 

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Lizardmen, party slann filth @ 2013/08/31 19:57:23

Post by: thedarkavenger

 HawaiiMatt wrote:

 thedarkavenger wrote:

I'm now toying with a Gor Rok star. All your points in a single unit with 2 slann, one on beasts and one on light/life/death. Then you curse the main threat, on the turn they get to charging you. If they're frenzied, better. That way, when they make charge, they take a dangerous terrain test which they fail on a 1/2. And when they make contact, they take another, which they fail on a 1/2 or 3.
It's a gimmick, but I'm interested to see if I can make it work.

If opponent is frenzied, throw 10-12 cohorts into it, 2 wide, and hex it. When you lose combat and run, you kill ~1/3 the unit with the curse.
If you're going double slaan, I'd double down on temple guard, and take Gor Rok leading a saurus block. Hell, throw in a saurus hero with the crown of command. That'd give you 4 stubborn units. That shold give you plenty of time to get off a few good magic phases.
Maybe go shadow and life, hoping for dwellers and mindrazor.

-Matt

The Gor Rok star is gimmicky, because it kills 1/3 on the charge, and 1/2 on making contact. And as it is literally that unit and 2 swarms, you need to engage it.

Reply by: HawaiiMatt - click to view full reply 

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Lizardmen, party slann filth @ 2013/09/01 07:54:57

Post by: HawaiiMatt

 thedarkavenger wrote:

The Gor Rok star is gimmicky, because it kills 1/3 on the charge, and 1/2 on making contact. And as it is literally that unit and 2 swarms, you need to engage it.

The shield affects models in contact, not units. 1/3 of the unit takes a wound on the charge, 1/2 of models that touch.
-Matt

Reply by: thedarkavenger - click to view full reply 

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Lizardmen, party slann filth @ 2013/09/01 13:45:55

Post by: thedarkavenger

 HawaiiMatt wrote:

 thedarkavenger wrote:

The Gor Rok star is gimmicky, because it kills 1/3 on the charge, and 1/2 on making contact. And as it is literally that unit and 2 swarms, you need to engage it.

The shield affects models in contact, not units. 1/3 of the unit takes a wound on the charge, 1/2 of models that touch.
-Matt

My bad, misread it.

Reply by: HawaiiMatt - click to view full reply 

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Lizardmen, party slann filth @ 2013/09/01 16:12:38

Post by: HawaiiMatt

 thedarkavenger wrote:

 HawaiiMatt wrote:

 thedarkavenger wrote:

The Gor Rok star is gimmicky, because it kills 1/3 on the charge, and 1/2 on making contact. And as it is literally that unit and 2 swarms, you need to engage it.

The shield affects models in contact, not units. 1/3 of the unit takes a wound on the charge, 1/2 of models that touch.
-Matt

My bad, misread it.

I think it's still decent.
3 or 4 Stubborn blocks backed up with beast magic is good. You have 2 combat characters for the character buffs, and wild form on any one of those 4 makes it a beat stick. IF you get the curse off, great.

-Matt

Reply by: Eihnlazer - click to view full reply 

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Lizardmen, party slann filth @ 2013/09/02 12:48:25

Post by: Eihnlazer

Ironically enough, i found another instance of where a wizard can gain loremaster during a game which favors the 12 spell argument.

pg.130 of BRB. if you challange the sphinx you can gain loremaster (death) during the game and learn all death spells.

This by extension means if you gain Loremaster (high) from a purchased ability you do indeed know all high magic even if it isnt your chosen lore..........

Reply by: FlingitNow - click to view full reply 

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Lizardmen, party slann filth @ 2013/09/02 13:05:03

Post by: FlingitNow

Eihnlazer wrote:
Ironically enough, i found another instance of where a wizard can gain loremaster during a game which favors the 12 spell argument.

pg.130 of BRB. if you challange the sphinx you can gain loremaster (death) during the game and learn all death spells.

This by extension means if you gain Loremaster (high) from a purchased ability you do indeed know all high magic even if it isnt your chosen lore..........

You get Loremaster (Death) even if it is no use to you. All that means is that if a non-wizard gets the rule it does nothing for him, likewise if a Wizard who's lore is not death gets the rule it does nothing for him... That's RAW, now if you want to discuss RaI that is a different matter and I would concede that the intention for the Sphinx is to give the 8 spells to any wizard, butnot for a second are you going to convince anyone that it is RaI for a 35point upgrade to make any Slaan miles better than Mazdamundi which the original poster has already conceded.

Reply by: Eihnlazer - click to view full reply 

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Lizardmen, party slann filth @ 2013/09/02 13:17:49

Post by: Eihnlazer

So your still saying that RAW it means they dont get anything from it if their chosen lore isnt death, even though its obviously ment to give the spells to any wizard?


Well, you have amazing fortitude good sir.

As undercosted as the ability seems, its not acctually gonna win the game for anyone. Knowing 30 spells wouldnt improve your game that drastically seeing as how you can only cast 2 or 3 decent spells a turn anyway.

Reply by: FlingitNow - click to view full reply 

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Lizardmen, party slann filth @ 2013/09/02 13:26:25

Post by: FlingitNow

So your still saying that RAW it means they dont get anything from it if their chosen lore isnt death, even though its obviously ment to give the spells to any wizard?

Yes I'm still arguing because that is literally what the RaW. The clear intention is that Loremaster gives you all the spells. But you cant say we'll play by the clear intention here but ignoring it for this rule because it gives me this massive bonus. RaI is far more important than RaW and we all know the RaI on these rules. DarkAvenger is trying to cheat by claiming a RaW interpretation but when pointed out that is not RAW we've had various attempts at putting RaI into a section of the rules which just further illustrates this is an attempt at cheating.

Having 14 Spells is actually a massive benefit because it gives you an answer to every question and with a tooled Slaan he can dominate a magic phase.

Reply by: HawaiiMatt - click to view full reply 

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Lizardmen, party slann filth @ 2013/09/02 14:42:55

Post by: HawaiiMatt

 FlingitNow wrote:

Eihnlazer wrote:
Ironically enough, i found another instance of where a wizard can gain loremaster during a game which favors the 12 spell argument.

pg.130 of BRB. if you challange the sphinx you can gain loremaster (death) during the game and learn all death spells.

This by extension means if you gain Loremaster (high) from a purchased ability you do indeed know all high magic even if it isnt your chosen lore..........

You get Loremaster (Death) even if it is no use to you. All that means is that if a non-wizard gets the rule it does nothing for him, likewise if a Wizard who's lore is not death gets the rule it does nothing for him... That's RAW, now if you want to discuss RaI that is a different matter and I would concede that the intention for the Sphinx is to give the 8 spells to any wizard, butnot for a second are you going to convince anyone that it is RaI for a 35point upgrade to make any Slaan miles better than Mazdamundi which the original poster has already conceded.

That that to YMTC, it has nothing to do with review of the army lists.

Reply by: thedarkavenger - click to view full reply 

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Lizardmen, party slann filth @ 2013/09/02 14:57:46

Post by: thedarkavenger

 FlingitNow wrote:

So your still saying that RAW it means they dont get anything from it if their chosen lore isnt death, even though its obviously ment to give the spells to any wizard?

Yes I'm still arguing because that is literally what the RaW. The clear intention is that Loremaster gives you all the spells. But you cant say we'll play by the clear intention here but ignoring it for this rule because it gives me this massive bonus. RaI is far more important than RaW and we all know the RaI on these rules. DarkAvenger is trying to cheat by claiming a RaW interpretation but when pointed out that is not RAW we've had various attempts at putting RaI into a section of the rules which just further illustrates this is an attempt at cheating.

Having 14 Spells is actually a massive benefit because it gives you an answer to every question and with a tooled Slaan he can dominate a magic phase.

A wizard can cast any spell he knows. The caveat is that he only can cast spells he has generated or loremastered at his character entry. Obtaining loremaster in any other way, I.E. Sphinx, or an upgrade, means that the then knows those spells.