Looking at the recent GT results of the Nova Tournament, Tau dominated. Obviously divination with Tau is really good, but what does the stereotypical tau/ elder list look like and why is it so hard to beat?

From what that says, the top Tau lists were all allied with the farsight supplement for the additional Riptide/elite slot. First place was 4 Riptides from what I understand.

Why is it hard to beat?

Because it's 4 god damned Riptides played by a good player. S8 AP2 large blast that ignore cover with some markerlight support allows you to remove swaths of your opponents army at a time.

S8 AP2 IC is the main culprit and problem...

If any other race had something that gross the subsequent players would be beaten to death their models.. from my understanding that is..

But it's Tau, they deserve the time in the spotlight... for a while lol

I guess the analytical side of me is coming out a little bit, I see multiple riptides but it has to have back up what else is in those list.

 CKO wrote:
Looking at the recent GT results of the Nova Tournament, Tau dominated. Obviously divination with Tau is really good, but what does the stereotypical tau/ elder list look like and why is it so hard to beat?

Followed the link. This is slightly off topic but I'm floored that eight out of the top nine army's primary detachments were either Eldar or Tau. The number eight spot being Grey Knights, who were allied with Tau.

Reading further down the list, the vast majority of the armies played were from the newer, hardback 6th edition codexes, with the armies coming from older codexes, generally placing near the bottom.

I have very little experience with 6th edition, having not played for almost two years, and I have been poised to start a new army (chaos daemons), but I'm feeling a bit hesitant to drop a lot of money on an army that will likely get stomped by Eldar and Tau throughout this entire edition.

Are the big scary models (riptides and wraithknights) really that good? Are other tournament players seeing results like the ones in the above link?

 Carnage43 wrote:
From what that says, the top Tau lists were all allied with the farsight supplement for the additional Riptide/elite slot. First place was 4 Riptides from what I understand.

Why is it hard to beat?

Because it's 4 god damned Riptides played by a good player. S8 AP2 large blast that ignore cover with some markerlight support allows you to remove swaths of your opponents army at a time.

The top lists were not ALL allied tau/tau. One was but they were mostly taudar. One was eldar/DE. They're very snooty armies with tons of force multipliers. Tau commanders for rerolls and ignoring cover. Farseers for rerolls and ignoring cover. Ethereals for area buffs. Markerlights to boost bs and remove cover. Several tau units can take skyfire or interceptor.

Eldar add the most mobile scoring units in the game plus psychic buffs and debuffs. Riptides are very resilient and flexible with various nova charges. Add in all the force multipliers and with good target priority, they can take out the few units that can actually threaten them early on. After the main threats are gone, they paste your scoring units with str9 ap2 large blasts that ignore cover. They can contest and linebreak at the end.

They aren't unbeatable, but you'd need a mostly tailored list that may get eliminated by the other popular tournament builds on the way up the pairing ladder.

 hyv3mynd wrote:

 Carnage43 wrote:
From what that says, the top Tau lists were all allied with the farsight supplement for the additional Riptide/elite slot. First place was 4 Riptides from what I understand.

Why is it hard to beat?

Because it's 4 god damned Riptides played by a good player. S8 AP2 large blast that ignore cover with some markerlight support allows you to remove swaths of your opponents army at a time.

The top lists were not ALL allied tau/tau. One was but they were mostly taudar. One was eldar/DE.

The number 1, number 2, and number 4 lists were all Tau/Tau. 3 was straight Eldar, 5 was Eldar/Dark Eldar.

 hyv3mynd wrote:

They aren't unbeatable, but you'd need a mostly tailored list that may get eliminated by the other popular tournament builds on the way up the pairing ladder.

This is very true. And this is also the reason why Tau and Eldar are only a "problem" in tournaments. In friendly games you can - after being stomped - tailor your list to beat Eldar or Tau. For example I won a game with CSM against Tau when I used units that got into cc quickly. But I wouldn't have won with this against Necron or Tyranids.

 Carnage43 wrote:
From what that says, the top Tau lists were all allied with the farsight supplement for the additional Riptide/elite slot. First place was 4 Riptides from what I understand.

Why is it hard to beat?

Because it's 4 god damned Riptides played by a good player. S8 AP2 large blast that ignore cover with some markerlight support allows you to remove swaths of your opponents army at a time.

I was told that S8 AP2 large blasts with ML support was not worth it in any way. Not even if your army only has one ECPA riptide with the IA profile.

Are you suggesting that S8 AP2 large blasts with ML support is a tournament winner?!?!11

O'vesa, the Farsight Riptide is an IC. He has special equipment allowing 4d6 DtW to all units in 12". So there goes one big Riptide weakness.
EDIT: I apologize for the oversight. O'vesa cannot take the DtW gear. It has to be on a seperate Farsight Riptide.

Also, since he's an IC, he can join another Riptide and a Buff Commander from Tau Empire. Basically, with wound allocation tricks, markerlights, and PEN/MSSS/CNC, it's an extremely hard to kill unit that will be wiping you off the table in short order.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Murenius wrote:

 hyv3mynd wrote:

They aren't unbeatable, but you'd need a mostly tailored list that may get eliminated by the other popular tournament builds on the way up the pairing ladder.

This is very true. And this is also the reason why Tau and Eldar are only a "problem" in tournaments. In friendly games you can - after being stomped - tailor your list to beat Eldar or Tau. For example I won a game with CSM against Tau when I used units that got into cc quickly. But I wouldn't have won with this against Necron or Tyranids.

Well, I know I can tailor my list to beat Riptides. And I can tailor my list to kill Serpent spam. However, it's darn near impossible to build a list that consistently beats both. When you consider the fact that you still need to have game vs. Wraithwing and Flying Circus lists.. Well, good luck.

 Carnage43 wrote:
Because it's 4 god damned Riptides played by a good player. S8 AP2 large blast that ignore cover with some markerlight support allows you to remove swaths of your opponents army at a time.

Jesus Christ how horrifying, why does this even exist?

 Dakkamite wrote:

 Carnage43 wrote:
Because it's 4 god damned Riptides played by a good player. S8 AP2 large blast that ignore cover with some markerlight support allows you to remove swaths of your opponents army at a time.

Jesus Christ how horrifying, why does this even exist?

Because the Tau got tired of getting their blue butts kicked all throughout 5e and early 6e.

This brings some interesting questions to the table: Can you simply ignore Riptides while focusing on their scoring units(my usual plan)?
Answer: NO! 4 of them with that IC Tide can mop you up if ignored, and apparently does.

How do we get around this? Moral checks? Instant death? Massed AP2 shooting? Assault? Where do we go from here?

What about the Screamer Council? that thing is the most durable death star ever.

 Brymm wrote:
This brings some interesting questions to the table: Can you simply ignore Riptides while focusing on their scoring units(my usual plan)?
Answer: NO! 4 of them with that IC Tide can mop you up if ignored, and apparently does.

How do we get around this? Moral checks? Instant death? Massed AP2 shooting? Assault? Where do we go from here?

The new Space Marine book seems to have the tools to kill riptides in Grav weaponry.

Now if only they could get there through the hellstorm of Riptide pieplate and Missile spam Broadside fire.

Seriously, Missilespam broadsides are scary, short of AV14, there's damn near nothing that survives a round of shooting from them, and they have the range to make you take multiple rounds. Oh and it's on two wound T5 2+ models that can easily get cover or invulnerable saves. And if I remember right, Broadsides can get stims..

Yeah, the best tactic seems to remain the same. Kill the troops and hide. If your codex has a way to get a 2++ rerollable unit, that should help immensly. Grav weapons will help once they come out.

In other news, I have respect for that SoB-player who won all games against Tau

Deal with Tau by killing all the markerlights first, then hide from the Riptides

 Thamor wrote:
Deal with Tau by killing all the markerlights first, then hide from the Riptides

I don't think that this is a bad strategy. That's the only way you CAN ignore the Riptides and expect to have anything left over. I like the Screamer-Star idea, but it really isn't a strategy. "Be unkillable" is probably good against just about everything.
How have flying big-daemons been doing against Tau/Riptides? What about Jaws of the World Wolf? The return (or did they ever leave?) of many Vendettas?

About 2 years ago everyone was complaing about gk and cron dominance. Those were the days.

What short memories everyone has

 Tyran wrote:
What about the Screamer Council? that thing is the most durable death star ever.

It has very poor damage output for its cost. Everything not the screamer star will get gunned down, with fatey's rerolls being the first target. Once the Grimoire fails then the screamer star will face ID large blasts.

 ImotekhTheStormlord wrote:

 Tyran wrote:
What about the Screamer Council? that thing is the most durable death star ever.

It has very poor damage output for its cost. Everything not the screamer star will get gunned down, with fatey's rerolls being the first target. Once the Grimoire fails then the screamer star will face ID large blasts.

I agree, doesn't seem to be "the answer" and is in fact far from it. It is just a different list.
In a way it seems okay because it will get into assault fast though.

 hippesthippo wrote:
O'vesa, the Farsight Riptide is an IC. He has special equipment allowing 4d6 DtW to all units in 12". So there goes one big Riptide weakness.

O'Vesa does not have the Medallion of Arthas Molas (SP) signature system, and you can not give it to him as the load outs for all the special IC cannot be modified. You would need a normal Farsight Riptide to get it.

The answer is to change the FAQ and not allow Riptides to be joined by an IC to form a unit.

I'm not sure Grav weapons are the answer because Riptides will intercept Sternguard in drop pods.and they can still get a 3++ on an overcharge.

 Kain wrote:

 Brymm wrote:
This brings some interesting questions to the table: Can you simply ignore Riptides while focusing on their scoring units(my usual plan)?
Answer: NO! 4 of them with that IC Tide can mop you up if ignored, and apparently does.

How do we get around this? Moral checks? Instant death? Massed AP2 shooting? Assault? Where do we go from here?

The new Space Marine book seems to have the tools to kill riptides in Grav weaponry.

Now if only they could get there through the hellstorm of Riptide pieplate and Missile spam Broadside fire.

Seriously, Missilespam broadsides are scary, short of AV14, there's damn near nothing that survives a round of shooting from them, and they have the range to make you take multiple rounds. Oh and it's on two wound T5 2+ models that can easily get cover or invulnerable saves. And if I remember right, Broadsides can get stims..

All tau suits are T4 save for Riptides(T6). The only way to get T5 on a suit is to get the Iridium Armor, which is a signature system (From Tau Empire Codex). I'm not sure if Vre Bsides have access to signature systems, but crisis suits and commanders do. (Edit: Vre Bsides do not have access to Signature Systems)

Bsides can easily get cover, but only get invuln saves from shield drones. The shield drones are 4++ unfortunately. (they no longer share the armor sv of the barer.) The invuln save is not conferred to the unit, so it does nothing to help against pie plates. Also due to how shooting works in 6th, you risk losing your shield drones on normal shooting, that wouldn't need an invuln save which would probably prompt a LD roll. :C

They do have access to stims, but at a cost of 15points. Bsides also can only get one suit system, and there are better suit systems than FNP.



Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Thamor wrote:
Deal with Tau by killing all the markerlights first, then hide from the Riptides

Well it certainly is a good strategy to start with. MLs are a force multiplier and make Riptide shooting really really scary, especially the IA profile.

You still have to deal with them though, but the shooting might not be as "spot on" without ML support. Although, i think the popular strategy is a marker commander that just JSJ himself and the drones. That'll be tough to catch.

You can take both O'Vesa and another Farsight Riptide with the medallion in an allied detachment..

Why is anyone surprised by this? Compared to CSM and DA, the Tau and Eldar are undercosted. I don't see the new marine book changing this at all.

I don't think grav weapons are going to fix this. The grav weapons will just be shot off the table first. The marine philosophy of mixing shooting and close combat is just kind of failing this edition.

 Kain wrote:

 Dakkamite wrote:

 Carnage43 wrote:
Because it's 4 god damned Riptides played by a good player. S8 AP2 large blast that ignore cover with some markerlight support allows you to remove swaths of your opponents army at a time.

Jesus Christ how horrifying, why does this even exist?

Because the Tau got tired of getting their blue butts kicked all throughout 5e and early 6e.

Too true. Too true.

 hippesthippo wrote:
You can take both O'Vesa and another Farsight Riptide with the medallion in an allied detachment..

Doesn't farsight have to be warlord to unlock the seven?

 hippesthippo wrote:
You can take both O'Vesa and another Farsight Riptide with the medallion in an allied detachment..

You sure can, and you're looking at 675 points for just those three. You need to bring troops too. With just three crisis suits, and no load out on them, the total comes out to be 744points. That's kind of pricey! : \

Your comment specifically stated O'Vesa had access to the medallion. Perhaps i misquoted it but that's what i thought you said. :|


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 hyv3mynd wrote:

 hippesthippo wrote:
You can take both O'Vesa and another Farsight Riptide with the medallion in an allied detachment..

Doesn't farsight have to be warlord to unlock the seven?

I do not think so. You can take the Seven as a replacement of his normal bodyguard unit. I do not recall it saying that he had to be the warlord to get it. I could be wrong.

Edit: A quick google search of the rules makes no mention of Farsight needing to be the warlord. However he HAS to be "bought" to have access to the Seven, and you cannot field Farsight's 7 crisis bodyguards. (as they were replaced by one or more of the seven)

In my opinion, Farsight Enclave is ok (probably best suited as a BB ally and this tournament proves my theory right), but the IC, as cool as they are, are way to pricey, and lack customization for any decent list. They're also not optimized in the least, and cost the exact same amount of points as a normal crisis commander with the same gear. The only advantage any of the seven bring is their IC status and some signature systems that the army does not have access to due to the Signature System rules on pg 88 of the Enclave Codex.

 TheCadreofFi'rios wrote:

 Kain wrote:

 Dakkamite wrote:

 Carnage43 wrote:
Because it's 4 god damned Riptides played by a good player. S8 AP2 large blast that ignore cover with some markerlight support allows you to remove swaths of your opponents army at a time.

Jesus Christ how horrifying, why does this even exist?

Because the Tau got tired of getting their blue butts kicked all throughout 5e and early 6e.

Too true. Too true.

So when do my BA get revenge on the GK and Necrons for *immediately* stealing our thunder in 5th? Yeah, that's what I thought, not happening.

I'm wondering how long this is going to last....

You're probably good past the marine codex. Maybe Orks or Tyranids could cause problems.

 TheCadreofFi'rios wrote:
I'm wondering how long this is going to last....

I honestly dont have a huge issue with Tau, my Elysians have handled them pretty well (helps I have 8 flyers, Tau players can only intercept so much) but with Marines I utilize a Drop Pod army that has proven VERY effective against alot of Tau armies I have faced, including Riptide spam. In the old book I ran Pedro with x30 Sternguard and just used the poisoned rounds to drop one riptide at a time (usually after slaughting his fire warriors first). People just need to learn how to fight the army.

Now the "Taudar" for example is just a nasty combo that is very powerful, especially since their physic power shinanigans. It is very tough to beat especially in the hands of a skilled player. I dont neccesarily agree with them being Battle Brothers but instead of getting mad about it, many of you need to check on the threads (which there are many) about how to deal with Tau or even make one on defeating the Taudar.

 Kain wrote:

 Brymm wrote:
This brings some interesting questions to the table: Can you simply ignore Riptides while focusing on their scoring units(my usual plan)?
Answer: NO! 4 of them with that IC Tide can mop you up if ignored, and apparently does.

How do we get around this? Moral checks? Instant death? Massed AP2 shooting? Assault? Where do we go from here?

The new Space Marine book seems to have the tools to kill riptides in Grav weaponry.

Now if only they could get there through the hellstorm of Riptide pieplate and Missile spam Broadside fire.

Seriously, Missilespam broadsides are scary, short of AV14, there's damn near nothing that survives a round of shooting from them, and they have the range to make you take multiple rounds. Oh and it's on two wound T5 2+ models that can easily get cover or invulnerable saves. And if I remember right, Broadsides can get stims..

Broadsides are T4. Meltaguns and Lascannons will ID them without a cover/invulnerable save.

Does anyone know any of these top players lists? I'm trying to get my Tau army into a competitive worthy list, and am still picking up some models, but so far I've had some trouble against the Space Wolves opponent I usually play.

Also, is it worth giving shield generators to bsides? I had some of mine get ID'd and it was painful =( I did have my drones slightly offside so my bsides ended up closes...

Noctem wrote:
Does anyone know any of these top players lists? I'm trying to get my Tau army into a competitive worthy list, and am still picking up some models, but so far I've had some trouble against the Space Wolves opponent I usually play.

Also, is it worth giving shield generators to bsides? I had some of mine get ID'd and it was painful =( I did have my drones slightly offside so my bsides ended up closes...

Don't give them shield generators, just put them in cover, so they get cover saves.

 gmaleron wrote:
I dont neccesarily agree with them being Battle Brothers but instead of getting mad about it, many of you need to check on the threads (which there are many) about how to deal with Tau or even make one on defeating the Taudar.

This thread was created with the intentions of identifying why taudar is good, and than coming up with ways to beat it. Would you please direct me to some of the threads that you are mentioning?

 Coyote81 wrote:

Noctem wrote:
Does anyone know any of these top players lists? I'm trying to get my Tau army into a competitive worthy list, and am still picking up some models, but so far I've had some trouble against the Space Wolves opponent I usually play.

Also, is it worth giving shield generators to bsides? I had some of mine get ID'd and it was painful =( I did have my drones slightly offside so my bsides ended up closes...

Don't give them shield generators, just put them in cover, so they get cover saves.

Ah, can't believe I didn't think of that lol... thanks!

Yes, I did make a mistake. Access to supplement rules can be difficult. The idea is right, just not sure how it's pulled off.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Ok guys, here is the NOVA Open winning list demonstrating what I was talking about: Justin Cook, Tau/Tau

Primary detachment (farsight enclaves)

Hq

farsight
165

O’vesa
305

Troops:

3 crisis suits, bonding knifex3, missile podx3
114

10 kroot
60

1 crisis suit, missile pod, bonding knife
38

1 crisis suit, missile pod, bonding knife
38

Elites:

riptide, ion accelerator, twin linked smart missile system, early warning override
190

riptide, ion accelerator, twin linked smart missile system, early warning override, positional relay
195

riptide, heavy burst cannon, twin linked smart missile system, velocity tracker, target lock, 2 shielded missile drones, talisman of arthas moloch
280

Heavy support

skyray, smart missile system, blacksun filter
116

skyray, smart missile system, blacksun filter
116

Allied detachment (codex tau)

Hq:
commander, command and control node, multispectrum sensor suite, iridium armor, puretide chip, onager gauntlet, vectored retrothrusters, neuroweb system jammer
172

Troops:

10 kroot
60

1849pts.

 hippesthippo wrote:
Yes, I did make a mistake. Access to supplement rules can be difficult. The idea is right, just not sure how it's pulled off.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Ok guys, here is the NOVA Open winning list demonstrating what I was talking about: Justin Cook, Tau/Tau

Primary detachment (farsight enclaves)

Hq

farsight
165

O’vesa
305

Troops:

3 crisis suits, bonding knifex3, missile podx3
114

10 kroot
60

1 crisis suit, missile pod, bonding knife
38

1 crisis suit, missile pod, bonding knife
38

Elites:

riptide, ion accelerator, twin linked smart missile system, early warning override
190

riptide, ion accelerator, twin linked smart missile system, early warning override, positional relay
195

riptide, heavy burst cannon, twin linked smart missile system, velocity tracker, target lock, 2 shielded missile drones, talisman of arthas moloch
280

Heavy support

skyray, smart missile system, blacksun filter
116

skyray, smart missile system, blacksun filter
116

Allied detachment (codex tau)

Hq:
commander, command and control node, multispectrum sensor suite, iridium armor, puretide chip, onager gauntlet, vectored retrothrusters, neuroweb system jammer
172

Troops:

10 kroot
60

1849pts.

I still don't understand why you need blacksun filters on sky rays, even though they are cheap. So do those two crisis suits only have 1 weapon each? And no AA? I'm amazed he pulled of so many wins with this list.

Two Skyrays and riptides with velocity trackers not enough AA for you?

 A Town Called Malus wrote:

 Kain wrote:

 Brymm wrote:
This brings some interesting questions to the table: Can you simply ignore Riptides while focusing on their scoring units(my usual plan)?
Answer: NO! 4 of them with that IC Tide can mop you up if ignored, and apparently does.

How do we get around this? Moral checks? Instant death? Massed AP2 shooting? Assault? Where do we go from here?

The new Space Marine book seems to have the tools to kill riptides in Grav weaponry.

Now if only they could get there through the hellstorm of Riptide pieplate and Missile spam Broadside fire.

Seriously, Missilespam broadsides are scary, short of AV14, there's damn near nothing that survives a round of shooting from them, and they have the range to make you take multiple rounds. Oh and it's on two wound T5 2+ models that can easily get cover or invulnerable saves. And if I remember right, Broadsides can get stims..

Broadsides are T4. Meltaguns and Lascannons will ID them without a cover/invulnerable save.

Huh? They are?

Still, some of the most frightful units in terms of dakka per point.

Dude with the Allied Cmdr, Ovesa, Farsight and the other Riptide in one unit with the shield drones. The only thing you have to shoot at it is 2 skyrays, 2 single riptides and the ripstar. I'm sure the suits stay in reserves and deepstrike to safe locations and try to get objectives late game. Taking naked suits is just dumb, and you never know. The single mpod is probably a transcription error somewhere down the line.

 Kain wrote:

 A Town Called Malus wrote:

 Kain wrote:

 Brymm wrote:
This brings some interesting questions to the table: Can you simply ignore Riptides while focusing on their scoring units(my usual plan)?
Answer: NO! 4 of them with that IC Tide can mop you up if ignored, and apparently does.

How do we get around this? Moral checks? Instant death? Massed AP2 shooting? Assault? Where do we go from here?

The new Space Marine book seems to have the tools to kill riptides in Grav weaponry.

Now if only they could get there through the hellstorm of Riptide pieplate and Missile spam Broadside fire.

Seriously, Missilespam broadsides are scary, short of AV14, there's damn near nothing that survives a round of shooting from them, and they have the range to make you take multiple rounds. Oh and it's on two wound T5 2+ models that can easily get cover or invulnerable saves. And if I remember right, Broadsides can get stims..

Broadsides are T4. Meltaguns and Lascannons will ID them without a cover/invulnerable save.

Huh? They are?

Still, some of the most frightful units in terms of dakka per point.

Sounds like someone has been cheated

 hippesthippo wrote:
You can take both O'Vesa and another Farsight Riptide with the medallion in an allied detachment..

Actually, you cannot.

The Ebook was updated shortly after launch, to take O'Vesa you must take Farsight and he must be your Warlord. So, anyone that is taking O'Vesa must have Farsight as their Warlord and therefore Farsight Enclaves must be their Primary Detatchement. Anyone that is allying in two Riptides has an illegal list.


I would know, It WAS my plan!



Tau and Eldar are the newest Codex in the neww edition, of course they are dominating the tournament scene, this is nothing new. In three months we will have a thread talking about how no one can believe how over he top the new Space Marine dex is and its a sure sign of GW's demise and incompetence. Repeat ever three months by replacing the offender with the newest dex.

Just look at how many people played Tau as either Primary or as Allies, significantly more than any other army short of Eldar or Daemons.

Read the whole thread.

Have you ever played against 3 Riptides? They're the reason why CC elements are still needed in 6th ed. You can't hurt them with shooting nor can you ignore them.

I played a game last weekend against 3 Riptides and 3 Hammerheads with submunition. They killed very little even though I was puppetmastering a Riptide every turn.

Eldar waveserpents are annoying, but CC units kill them too.

Remember when we all said mech was dead? Well, in a few months I think CC is going to be strong again and will balance out against shooting. We've all constricted ourselves to shooting-only lists which, unsurprisingly, are outgunned by the two newest pure shooting armies.


My tyranids have yet to lose to either army.

I see a lot of people going on about how good broadsides are, but with their weakness to lascannon type shots or taking LD tests, they suffer from lack of durability.

Personally I run crisis teams with double missile pods and skyfire teamed up with an Iridium armor commander with similar loadout + stims/puretide chip and shield drones. The IC at the front allows me to use the 2+ vs small arms and the 4++ on the drones vs AP2. Their mobility adds a little extra threat range to the missile shots, and the unit has better durability than a similarly equipped broadside team.

 hippesthippo wrote:
Read the whole thread.

I did and was clarifying your mistake. I do see where you said you made a mistake, but it was not apparent what you were saying, I was reiterating and making it clear as I do own and have access to the supplement.

Thaylen, most marine players in my area won't pony up for lascannons. They want the missile launcher and plasma to do all the work.

Lanlaorn wrote:
Two Skyrays and riptides with velocity trackers not enough AA for you?

Skyrays shoot only 6 missiles each during the entire game, and only 1 tide had a VT
A list with ~3 fliers would have given it a hard time.


And seriously, broadsides are your issue? they might do alot of damage, but its still just a T4 model. shoot ID on it.
Shield drones? gun them done first (mere 4+ save) then go after the broadsides with S8+ AP1-2 for quick kills


Riptides? tie them in combat. dont expect to gun down the biggest thing the "we can only shoot, we might as well excel at it" throws at you.
And kill the markerlights first, then it wont ignore cover any more.


Also, for the guy who said that tau and eldar are overpowered compared to DA and CSM, I think the problem is in DA and CSM, as the new SM seems to be in line with tau/eldar power, and also makes a mockery of DA and CSM.

I seriously doubt the new marine book is going to stand up to the Tau and Eldar. None of the leaks sound promising given what I've seen the Tau and Eldar do to MEQ lists.

The term I used was undercosted. Arguably the same as overpowered, but not quite. It's not the effects of Eldar or Tau I have a problem with, its what they pay for them.

Martel732 wrote:
I seriously doubt the new marine book is going to stand up to the Tau and Eldar. None of the leaks sound promising given what I've seen the Tau and Eldar do to MEQ lists.

This.

Tau and eldar have meta changing units and rules. Marines are getting cheaper and a few toys but nothing monumental. However they're battle brothers with both eldar and tau so there will probably be some new hybrid lists which will be good.

But why hybridize Tau or Eldar with marines when you can have Tau/Eldar?

Centurions aren't terrible and you can add ATSKNF characters to allied units. Tugurius alone is worth it.

ATSKNF is very overrated in 6th edition. It's not even that much of an advantage as my models are *dying* without taking morale tests. ATSKNF was great when marines were killed slowly, but now they just die wholesale.

I guess its still good for blobs. It's bad when a marine rule is better for other lists than the actual marines.

If people stopped trying to play elite armies, tau would lose.

But no, we only see elite army lists, no hordes, no high av vehices, just MC's and elite stuff.

No wonder people are losing to tau.

Marines don't have much of a choice in that matter. I don't use the BA "elite" stuff, but the basic troopers are expensive enough that the Tau can deal pretty easily.

 juraigamer wrote:
If people stopped trying to play elite armies, tau would lose.

But no, we only see elite army lists, no hordes, no high av vehices, just MC's and elite stuff.

No wonder people are losing to tau.

A part of this is due to tournament time limits. Some of the best players in the country admitted to not finishing many games naturally at NOVA. Guys that play 40k ten times more than the average Joe and know their army better than many of us ever will. They still aren't finishing games. Mechdar with lots of skimmers is very fast to play. The 4 riptide list that won NOVA had 30 models or less. FMC daemon lists reserve all their troops and start with 5 or 6 models on the table. Necron lists must reserve all their flyers. Despite all this, top table gamers are not finishing games.

If they can't do it with elite armies, why even bother with hordes? I started a thread on it on my club's forum and people admit to crafting elite armies to finish games in a timed tournament setting. Until tournaments start drastically lowering points or increasing time limits, elite armies will always be more prevalent than hordes. We may see a small surge with the new Nid and Ork books during the next year which may be the first to dethrone the Tau/Eldar reign.

Sounds like tournaments need to have longer time slots.

 Zagman wrote:

 hippesthippo wrote:
You can take both O'Vesa and another Farsight Riptide with the medallion in an allied detachment..

Actually, you cannot.

The Ebook was updated shortly after launch, to take O'Vesa you must take Farsight and he must be your Warlord. So, anyone that is taking O'Vesa must have Farsight as their Warlord and therefore Farsight Enclaves must be their Primary Detatchement. Anyone that is allying in two Riptides has an illegal list.

O'vesa doesn't count as an HQ or Elites choice. He's outside the FOC, just like Shas'vre bodyguards.

So you can take Farsight, O'vesa and another Riptide as an allied detachment (as long as you have your required 3 man Crisis troops team as well but who wouldn't take that?)

EDIT: Misread your point about Farsight having to be the Warlord. My copy doesn't seem to have that update...

Or fewer rounds, or small points limits.

Tournaments are trying to pack in more rounds. My first GT was 5 rounds back in 2010 and NOVA 2013 was 8?

Personally, I'd rather play 5 rounds at 1500pts with battle points deciding the winner after a natural, random game ending. Playing 8 rounds at 2,000pts where you only finish 4-5 turns each time is a big turn off for me.

The trick is everyone wants something different from their experience than the next guy and it's impossible to please everyone.

The result as someone pointed out above is people move towards elite armies as a result, and Tau and Eldar are very well equipped to table elite armies.

I've played 4 casual games and 7 tournament games with the new Eldar since release and only lost once. That was to a typhus zombie horde that got up in my grill quickly. Almost lost to a foot guard list too, but my dice were better. Every game vs marines or other elite armies was definitely "easy mode".


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 A Town Called Malus wrote:

 Zagman wrote:

 hippesthippo wrote:
You can take both O'Vesa and another Farsight Riptide with the medallion in an allied detachment..

Actually, you cannot.

The Ebook was updated shortly after launch, to take O'Vesa you must take Farsight and he must be your Warlord. So, anyone that is taking O'Vesa must have Farsight as their Warlord and therefore Farsight Enclaves must be their Primary Detatchement. Anyone that is allying in two Riptides has an illegal list.

O'vesa doesn't count as an HQ or Elites choice. He's outside the FOC, just like Shas'vre bodyguards.

So you can take Farsight, O'vesa and another Riptide as an allied detachment (as long as you have your required 3 man Crisis troops team as well but who wouldn't take that?)

Again, no.

In order to unlock the named enclaves characters, you MUST take farsight and he MUST be warlord. To do that, he MUST be in your primary detachment.

Farsight only needs to be your warlord if he is in your primary detachment if he is an ally then that sentence does not apply. The O'vesa star is RAW legal. Do you think the vast majority of tournaments would allow illegal lists?

 FirePainter wrote:
Farsight only needs to be your warlord if he is in your primary detachment if he is an ally then that sentence does not apply. The O'vesa star is RAW legal. Do you think the vast majority of tournaments would allow illegal lists?

Please, please supply some proof for this statement as the wording in the updated legal supplement requires Farsight to be your Warlord, and there is no doubt about it RAW. You cannot satisfy that requirement if Farsight Enclaves is not your Primary Detatchment.

The O'VesaStar lists have to have Farsight Enclaves as their Primary Detachment, no ifs ands or buts about it.

TBH I'm surprised nobody was running a 60 corndog list at NOVA. Seems to me 3 maxed out units with ap2 heralds would be an auto-win vs Tau. 120 wounds with 5++ and one unit at 3++, all able to assault turn 2 is too much for Tau to handle. They have a huge footprint able to hit multiple units at once and sweep riptides with ease.

It's a lot of points, but so are 5 FMC's and Tau handle those much easier. Seems like many players have gone from max troops early in the edition to min troops now with max HQ/fast/elite/heavy killing power.

I've yet to lose a game against the Tau. I had one that almost turned into a stalemate against my Nurlge Army becaue I just wasn't killing things quickly enough to advance to mid-table in a timely fashion...

The best thing that I can say to all you players out there who are struggling to win against the Tau / Eldar... read their rulebooks. That may sound silly but I promise you it will make a difference. A sad fact about this hobby is that while there are some genuinely well-thought adults that play and take it seriously (in that they are respectful of other players and mindful that it is ultimately still a game), there are also lots of silly kids and twenty-somethings out there that just don't get it. They skim through their own rulbooks and slap a force together to go crazy on the table with.

I've never seen (literally never) a Tau Player who knew his own codex well enough to go a turn without having me correct him on something important enough that I didn't just let it slide (and I let a lot of things slide). That probably sounds like I am just being hateful to tau players but the truth of the matter is that their codex is brim full of odd special rules and has more wargear options per unit than any other army. They are more complicated than other forces and while that may not bother some folks, it can be easy to overlook certian things. How do I know this? becuase despite my general dislike of the Tau and my own disinterest in ever playing them, I own the codex. Partly becuase I am a collector and partly because I like to know the rules I am likely to be up against.

The Tau are not a difficult force to face on the table. 6e has really made poison valuable by handing out higher T values to pretty much everyone. They are the order of the day and I honestly can't think of a reason why at least some poison shouldn't be present in all lists.

I remember long ago when I first started playing and everytime I put a Land Raider on the table people who sigh and mutter under their breath about how cheesy it was. How inconvenient it was for them that they were facing a model they couldn't just ignore and that wouldn't go down in a single round of shooting.

Well... Riptides & Wraithknights are the new Land Raiders. They are not the most effective or the most killy units on the table, but they have a way of demanding players attention. That can't really be ignored, and you can't spend all your resources trying to bring them down... so what's to be done?

You have to stike the right balance of waring them down and not neglecting the rest of the enemy's army. They are not cheap units so they factor into what that player can put with it in his list... which wwill likely be smaller for it. Posioned weapons will deal the 1-2 wounds per turn you need in small doses that let your oppenant know that he can't just plant a big tough guy in your face and let it do as it likes. 2 turns of that and he's lost. By tossing a little bit of concentrated and effective firepower into that model you free up the rest of your list to take on his remaining forces (which you will almost assuredly outnumber unless you are bringing a bad-bad of your own).

Sorry for the strange typos. I am trying a new bluetooth keyboard and its way to tiny for my massive, giant-hands

 Tyran wrote:
What about the Screamer Council? that thing is the most durable death star ever.

When you don't get the 2++ once every 9 games, its hard for a list like that to win a GT. They can win a RTT easy, but given enough time they will have their 'bad game'.

Also, there is that one game where the grimoire will fail, and the screamers will fall.

Please, please supply some proof for this statement as the wording in the updated legal supplement requires Farsight to be your Warlord, and there is no doubt about it RAW. You cannot satisfy that requirement if Farsight Enclaves is not your Primary Detatchment.

The O'VesaStar lists have to have Farsight Enclaves as their Primary Detachment, no ifs ands or buts about it.

Forgive me I was under the impression that, while you must have farsight to have the any of the eight, that there was no requirement for this to be in primary detachment. So your version of the supplement means that you cannot take farsight in an allied detachment at all as he must be the warlord?

 FirePainter wrote:

Please, please supply some proof for this statement as the wording in the updated legal supplement requires Farsight to be your Warlord, and there is no doubt about it RAW. You cannot satisfy that requirement if Farsight Enclaves is not your Primary Detatchment.

The O'VesaStar lists have to have Farsight Enclaves as their Primary Detachment, no ifs ands or buts about it.

Forgive me I was under the impression that, while you must have farsight to have the any of the eight, that there was no requirement for this to be in primary detachment. So your version of the supplement means that you cannot take farsight in an allied detachment at all as he must be the warlord?

As the OP this rule discussion is unwanted please take it somewhere else.

Back on topic: Riptides only have 2 attacks at ws 2 tying them up in combat is an option correct?

 hyv3mynd wrote:
TBH I'm surprised nobody was running a 60 corndog list at NOVA. Seems to me 3 maxed out units with ap2 heralds would be an auto-win vs Tau. 120 wounds with 5++ and one unit at 3++, all able to assault turn 2 is too much for Tau to handle. They have a huge footprint able to hit multiple units at once and sweep riptides with ease.

It's a lot of points, but so are 5 FMC's and Tau handle those much easier. Seems like many players have gone from max troops early in the edition to min troops now with max HQ/fast/elite/heavy killing power.

Ethereals can give a 12" aura of Stubborn and the Buffmander can also give Stubborn to himself (which confers to his unit). Investing 1230+ points in dogs leaves little or no points left for shooting away the Kroot bubble wrap. At a minimum you're probably looking at eating two full turns of shooting and then two full overwatches (once for the Kroot screen and again after the screen is gone). The Ovesastar will then have thrusters to escape via Hit & Run.

I do agree that Tau have a much harder time dealing with rush lists than the flying circus though.

 FirePainter wrote:

Please, please supply some proof for this statement as the wording in the updated legal supplement requires Farsight to be your Warlord, and there is no doubt about it RAW. You cannot satisfy that requirement if Farsight Enclaves is not your Primary Detatchment.

The O'VesaStar lists have to have Farsight Enclaves as their Primary Detachment, no ifs ands or buts about it.

Forgive me I was under the impression that, while you must have farsight to have the any of the eight, that there was no requirement for this to be in primary detachment. So your version of the supplement means that you cannot take farsight in an allied detachment at all as he must be the warlord?

No, Farsight is still available to be selected as an HQ in an allied detachment, but his special Farsight Commander Team is only available if Farsight is your Warlord which makes it impossible for O'Vesa to be selected unless Farsight is the Warlord and Farsight Enclaves is your Primary Detachment.


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 CKO wrote:

 FirePainter wrote:

Please, please supply some proof for this statement as the wording in the updated legal supplement requires Farsight to be your Warlord, and there is no doubt about it RAW. You cannot satisfy that requirement if Farsight Enclaves is not your Primary Detatchment.

The O'VesaStar lists have to have Farsight Enclaves as their Primary Detachment, no ifs ands or buts about it.

Forgive me I was under the impression that, while you must have farsight to have the any of the eight, that there was no requirement for this to be in primary detachment. So your version of the supplement means that you cannot take farsight in an allied detachment at all as he must be the warlord?

As the OP this rule discussion is unwanted please take it somewhere else.

Back on topic: Riptides only have 2 attacks at ws 2 tying them up in combat is an option correct?

Riptides have 3 attacks, 2 when Smashing. Sending the Riptide into combat with just about anything is foolish as anything better in CC than naked tactical marines will sweep them. And I've even had one of mine swept by a tactical marine, notice the singular, a single tactical marine, not even a squad.

 Danny Internets wrote:

 hyv3mynd wrote:
TBH I'm surprised nobody was running a 60 corndog list at NOVA. Seems to me 3 maxed out units with ap2 heralds would be an auto-win vs Tau. 120 wounds with 5++ and one unit at 3++, all able to assault turn 2 is too much for Tau to handle. They have a huge footprint able to hit multiple units at once and sweep riptides with ease.

It's a lot of points, but so are 5 FMC's and Tau handle those much easier. Seems like many players have gone from max troops early in the edition to min troops now with max HQ/fast/elite/heavy killing power.

Ethereals can give a 12" aura of Stubborn and the Buffmander can also give Stubborn to himself (which confers to his unit). Investing 1230+ points in dogs leaves little or no points left for shooting away the Kroot bubble wrap. At a minimum you're probably looking at eating two full turns of shooting and then two full overwatches (once for the Kroot screen and again after the screen is gone). The Ovesastar will then have thrusters to escape via Hit & Run.

I do agree that Tau have a much harder time dealing with rush lists than the flying circus though.

Ahh I forgot about stubborn. Even still, the NOVA champion didn't bring an ethereal. The buffmander is good no doubt, but stubborn isn't fearless and it'll still fail eventually. And they hit-and-run on a 3/4 under? Also far from reliable. The top list only had 10 kroot so not much to bubble wrap with. Blocking with skyrays was about the closest thing. I watched most of the live streaming games and bubble wrap in general was lacking. Seems like people went for overwhelming firepower in hopes that assault would be minimal.

I was really surprised by the commonality of all the lists actually. Tau with several riptides and missile sides. Taudar with serpents. Eldar/DE with baron's seer council. Daemons with max flyers or flyers + screamers. Probably the most common theme was elite armies with Darkwynn's eldar and Hulksmash's IG having the most bodies. But even then no super fast assault units aside from FMC's. Seems like beasts and cavalry are really good counters to both Tau and Eldar right now and most people jumped on the bandwagon rather than build a counter-meta list.

I know Target won Killadaelphia/ETC with ~120 kroot and triptides but I never saw his list or army on live stream.

The person who mentioned reading your opponent's codex is spot on too. I've watched/read enough battles to know even top bracket players make mistakes. Tau units that fire interceptor cannot shoot during their next shooting phase guys, pay attention! Battle focus must happen before or after an eldar unit shoots; don't let them do all their focus moves at the end of the phase. Keep track of marker light tokens and warp charges and keep your opponents honest. Tau are very good if you play into their hands, but not an auto-win army.

 Zagman wrote:

Riptides have 3 attacks, 2 when Smashing. Sending the Riptide into combat with just about anything is foolish as anything better in CC than naked tactical marines will sweep them. And I've even had one of mine swept by a tactical marine, notice the singular, a single tactical marine, not even a squad.

I often use my Riptide(s) to kill Daemon Princes in cc. I kick in the 3+ invu, go for the Smash, and if the Dp doesn't have Iron Arm, he is good as dead. I've found Riptides to be pretty decent in melee with their good armor - they can hold up nearly anything that doesn't have AP2 or poisoned/fleshbane melee attacks.

To the Cornhounds: S8 pie plates vs. massed T4 W2 hounds? Count me unimpressed ...

But riptides hit princes on 5+, wound on 2+ with smash, and still need to bypass the invuln. A far cry from "as good as dead".

Hounds come in packs of 20 and with proper spacing you'll only hit ~4 and kill 2-3 after wounding and saves. They scout 12" turn 1, move 12" + run, and assault turn 2. So you get 1 maybe 2 shooting phases to kill 6 or so dogs out of 60 per riptide.

 hyv3mynd wrote:
But riptides hit princes on 5+, wound on 2+ with smash, and still need to bypass the invuln. A far cry from "as good as dead".

Hounds come in packs of 20 and with proper spacing you'll only hit ~4 and kill 2-3 after wounding and saves. They scout 12" turn 1, move 12" + run, and assault turn 2. So you get 1 maybe 2 shooting phases to kill 6 or so dogs out of 60 per riptide.

This has been my experience with Riptides. The only thing I've ever seen a Riptide contribute to a game is when I rolled a lucky "hit" on my scatter dice and killed enough space marines to cause a morale check which they failed and ran off the table. I used my Tyranids against a 3 Riptide list the other day and my swarmlord may have taken a wound or two from them and then he killed 1 gant... I was puppet mastering one every turn and I only killed a single firewarrior with his TL plasma.

Trust a Tyranid player, you must have marker lights to make these guys good because BS 3 is NOT reliable. You must also pile on the Tau puretide chip special rules because str 7 ap 2 isn't cool nor is a str 8 ap 2 large blast.

How many people do you see on here advocating battle cannons or demolisher cannons? They look like they'd hit a lot but often times they hit 4 or few models.

How do you propose getting into combat with Riptides so easily? 60" range, plus JSJ makes that a little difficult.


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Also, the top list had 20 Kroot and the Buff Commander can give stubborn, I'm pretty sure.

How many Battle Cannons and Demolisher Cannons can get boosted to BS 5+ and Ignore cover?

And aren't Demolisher Cannons 24" range and on a vehicle and therefore much easier to kill?

Unless you're playing apoc, a fast vehicle with a 24" range gun and a guy with a 60" range gun are approximately the same.

For the cost of a Riptide and enough markerlights to make him BS 5+ and ignore cover I can probably buy two vindicators.

I don't think the buff commander can. However, he's leadership 10.

Kroot snipers are fun... I had a group of them with a buff commander glance a dreadnought to death over the course of a game because I didn't really want to shoot at GK terminators lol.

Since when were Vindicators fast?

 hippesthippo wrote:
How do you propose getting into combat with Riptides so easily? 60" range, plus JSJ makes that a little difficult.


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Also, the top list had 20 Kroot and the Buff Commander can give stubborn, I'm pretty sure.

Actually the more I think about it, the more appealing it sounds for daemons. Tau love going first so let him. Watch him set up first and deploy your hounds directly across from riptides then scout them up 12". He gets 1 turn to shoot then you move another 12" and assault 2d6" with rerolls. In DoW deployment that's a guaranteed first turn assault. Maybe turn 2 in the other deployments but you're also boxing him in which is great for objective missions and linebreaker. JSJ is not that much as they'll move 6" and then jump 7" on average. Hounds scout 12 and move 12 ignoring terrain with rerolls for fleet.

Stubborn can actually work against tau as if the dogs are locked, then they aren't getting shot.

Hi guys, just felt like chiming in:

the tidestar hit/runs on farsights init 5, so its extremely reliable. I still failed it game 7 and almost lost the game because of it...thankfully ovesa and the burst tide managed to smash down a wraithknight in cc in subsequent rounds. I too was surprised by the lack of deamon cav-focused lists. And I only fought 5 flyers all weekend taking the form of a pair of storm ravens and 3 night scythes. I wouldnt have been too worried about a more flyer-centric list as flyers arent that great vs riptides outside of stormravens and vendettas. My list has just enough marker support that even after the rays shoot their missiles off they can still make the tidestar really tear down flyers. No one really went after those things all weekend-they're the quiet heroes of my list! Thats really all i have for now I'll probably comment if anyone has any specific questions.

Thing about cavalry is you can just sit on the second story of a building, next to your objective and be completely immune to getting assaulted by them as, like old-school Daleks, they can't use stairs.

 hyv3mynd wrote:
But riptides hit princes on 5+, wound on 2+ with smash, and still need to bypass the invuln. A far cry from "as good as dead".

ÍChances doesn't really matter in this scenario, as the DP risks much more than the Riptide. Only one wound on the DP instagibs it while the Riptide can take 4. And the DP needs a 3+, 4+ and the Riptide has to fail his 5+ invu and FnP to take a single wound out of the 4. Maybe the Riptide can put only ~0.33 wounds on the DP but those are 0.33 GG NO RE wounds.

 hyv3mynd wrote:

Hounds come in packs of 20 and with proper spacing you'll only hit ~4 and kill 2-3 after wounding and saves. They scout 12" turn 1, move 12" + run, and assault turn 2. So you get 1 maybe 2 shooting phases to kill 6 or so dogs out of 60 per Riptide.

That 6 dogs should be enough. Cornhounds aren't great against Riptides anyway (1 Wound/Turn on charge), so those casualties will matter a lot. Not to mention that 320 points (20 hounds) to combat 225 is rather... uneconomical.

So I was thinking, is it actually a good idea to charge corndogs at a riptide? Those 20 corndogs have a huge footprint and even with pile in are unlikely to fully engage a riptide. I don't have the dog but they are 2" long right? so only the first row get to fight? If fully packed in the front arc that is only about 10 dogs fighting. To be generous lets say 15 get to attack, so 15 units, 3 attacks each, hitting on a 4+, wounding on a 6+ and failing the save on a 1, leaves only .833 wounds to the riptide. The riptide has ld 9 will most of the time pass. The riptide has 3 attacks, hitting on 3+, wounding on 2+ and failing the save on a 4 or less. This means the riptide is also likely to do .833 wounds. So we are at a situation that the dogs may fail combat and if they do ld7 is a lot easier to fail. So what you are left with is a unit that is most likely not going to kill the riptide but has a pretty big chance of dying itself, or at least breaking combat and getting shot. Not to mention corn dogs are about 125pts more expensive than a riptide.

Charge everything with the dogs.

1) Go for massed sweeping advances

2) Go for the much easier to kill 'other-than-riptide' models

3) Stop them shooting at you

4) Stops you being markerlighted

5) Target Ethereal/Commander/Markerlights as priority.

Razerous wrote:
Charge everything with the dogs.

1) Go for massed sweeping advances

2) Go for the much easier to kill 'other-than-riptide' models

3) Stop them shooting at you

4) Stops you being markerlighted

5) Target Ethereal/Commander/Markerlights as priority.

This reminds me of this:

It is totally that simple !

I have killed plenty of Riptides with Dogs, via sweeping advances. It's all about a good multi charge.

Tau elite builds are not a difficult match up for Dog Pile style lists. It's the Kroot heavy lists that give the Dogs trouble. Because it adds an extra layer of overwatch and an extra shooting phase. I actually generally try to shoot holes in the Kroot with Fateweaver first; which sometimes works, sometimes doesn't. The problem with that is that now Fateweaver is exposed and needs the Grimoire; making your Dogs more vulnerable.

Daemons versus Tau is one of the more complicated match ups in the game, imo, and entirely depends on what build you're running (for both sides)

 A Town Called Malus wrote:
Since when were Vindicators fast?

Since the BA codex hit.

BA are awesome

On-topic:
Maybe White Scars can help.
Outflanking Bikers with Grav-guns seem like a good anti-Riptide trick, especially when they are also scoring.
4+ cover and stronger HoW is great too!

Thatguyoverthere11 wrote:

 A Town Called Malus wrote:
Since when were Vindicators fast?

Since the BA codex hit.

Ah, I had thought it was probably them but just wanted to make sure.

 lambsandlions wrote:
So I was thinking, is it actually a good idea to charge corndogs at a riptide? Those 20 corndogs have a huge footprint and even with pile in are unlikely to fully engage a riptide. I don't have the dog but they are 2" long right? so only the first row get to fight? If fully packed in the front arc that is only about 10 dogs fighting. To be generous lets say 15 get to attack, so 15 units, 3 attacks each, hitting on a 4+, wounding on a 6+ and failing the save on a 1, leaves only .833 wounds to the riptide. The riptide has ld 9 will most of the time pass. The riptide has 3 attacks, hitting on 3+, wounding on 2+ and failing the save on a 4 or less. This means the riptide is also likely to do .833 wounds. So we are at a situation that the dogs may fail combat and if they do ld7 is a lot easier to fail. So what you are left with is a unit that is most likely not going to kill the riptide but has a pretty big chance of dying itself, or at least breaking combat and getting shot. Not to mention corn dogs are about 125pts more expensive than a riptide.

There is quite a lot wrong here.
1) It is almost certain that all 20 will get to attack, unless they go for a 12" charge or something silly like that.
2) They are WS5, riptides are either WS3 or WS2 (forget which). This means that dogs hit on a 3+, not a 5+, and the riptide will either hit on a 4+ or a 5+.
3) You have used mean averages, which do not really represent what would happen very well.
4) The maths you have given is also incorrect.
5) Riptides are also only S5, so wound on a 3+, not a 2+.

Given the above:
60 attacks
modal average = 61*(2/3)*(1/6)*(1/6)
= 1 wound is most likely result.

3 riptide attacks (assuming WS3)
modal average = 4*(1/2)*(2/3)*(2/3)
= 0 wounds is most likely result.

Ld9 - 1 is Ld8
Ld8 gives a 28% chance of breaking.

The riptide is not in good shape.

Kangodo wrote:

On-topic:
Maybe White Scars can help.
Outflanking Bikers with Grav-guns seem like a good anti-Riptide trick, especially when they are also scoring.
4+ cover and stronger HoW is great too!

You need 20 grav shots to kill a single Riptide, so unless you bring 10 bikers with grav guns (5 squads of bikers), they won't really do that much. But outflanking bikers could be a good idea. You just need to get a good angle on the Pathfinders and hope for the best while avoiding anything that has an EWO.

The new SM codex isn't exactly full with anti-Tau stuff that is both good and cost effective, but I've found Librarians (cheap Telepathy spam against Riptides) and Thunderfire Cannons (to kill the footsloggers) promising. 3 Librarians with drop podding Tacticals and 2-3 Thunderfire cannons should do the trick. Get some AA (Hunter or one of the flyers) and serious AT (MM attack bikes) and you can even call it a TAC list.

1) It is almost certain that all 20 will get to attack, unless they go for a 12" charge or something silly like that.
2) They are WS5, riptides are either WS3 or WS2 (forget which). This means that dogs hit on a 3+, not a 5+, and the riptide will either hit on a 4+ or a 5+.
5) Riptides are also only S5, so wound on a 3+, not a 2+.

1, Dogs have cavalry bases, so only two "circles" can attack if they completely surround the Riptide. That's actually some 16/17 models I guess? Again, with complete surrounding that won't be the case on charge. But it doesn't matter since if all 20 hounds reach the Riptide then something has already gone terribly wrong for the Tau player.
2, Riptides are WS2 but they will also have FnP.
5, Riptides are Strength 6.

The actual maths are:
Hounds: 60 attacks - 39.6 hits - 13.06 wounds - 2.09 actual wounds (after armour save) - 1.37 real wounds (after FnP)
Riptide: 3 attacks - 1 hit - 0.86 wounds - 0.56 real wounds (after invu save)
Time for the Daemon player to pray for the 28% chance of the Riptide failing its morale test. If the Riptide passes, you can wave goodbye to your 320 points because the 225 points Riptide will possibly tie them up for the rest of the game (0.44 real wounds without charging bonuses) and nobody could help out the hounds because they have to surround the Riptide, not giving a path to charge.

Why is everyone leaving out the jugger herald with an ap2 weapon?

 AtoMaki wrote:
You need 20 grav shots to kill a single Riptide, so unless you bring 10 bikers with grav guns (5 squads of bikers), they won't really do that much. But outflanking bikers could be a good idea. You just need to get a good angle on the Pathfinders and hope for the best while avoiding anything that has an EWO.

Hmm.. 5 wounds
5++ so 7.5 wounds needed
2+ to wound, so 9 hits
3+ to hit, so 13.5 shots needed.

One group of bikers has 6 shots, so that is enough to take away half his wounds.
That's quite good for a unit that is slightly above 90 points.

 hyv3mynd wrote:
Why is everyone leaving out the jugger herald with an ap2 weapon?

Because pitting 320 points against 225 is roughly okay (very roughly). Pitting 450 against 225 isn't. Saying that you can take down a Riptide with your Cornhounds when they have a Herald with AP2 weapon, extra invu from Grimoire, extra invu from Warp Storm, Rage, they are re-rolling to-hit, the Riptide is T5 and must re-roll successful saves and whatsnot.... It is like saying that you can take down a Riptide simply by hitting it with a baseball-bat from the other side of the table .

Hmm.. 5 wounds
5++ so 7.5 wounds needed
2+ to wound, so 9 hits
3+ to hit, so 13.5 shots needed.

One group of bikers has 6 shots, so that is enough to take away half his wounds.
That's quite good for a unit that is slightly above 90 points.

You forget the FnP. Only crazy people take a Riptide without FnP.

 AtoMaki wrote:

 hyv3mynd wrote:
Why is everyone leaving out the jugger herald with an ap2 weapon?

Because pitting 320 points against 225 is roughly okay (very roughly). Pitting 450 against 225 isn't. Saying that you can take down a Riptide with your Cornhounds when they have a Herald with AP2 weapon, extra invu from Grimoire, extra invu from Warp Storm, Rage, they are re-rolling to-hit, the Riptide is T5 and must re-roll successful saves and whatsnot.... It is like saying that you can take down a Riptide simply by hitting it with a baseball-bat from the other side of the table .

Hmm.. 5 wounds
5++ so 7.5 wounds needed
2+ to wound, so 9 hits
3+ to hit, so 13.5 shots needed.

One group of bikers has 6 shots, so that is enough to take away half his wounds.
That's quite good for a unit that is slightly above 90 points.

You forget the FnP. Only crazy people take a Riptide without FnP.

But that's not what I'm saying...

There's a lot of context in this thread, it's not a vacuous comparison between equal units. The OP referenced NOVA top lists which featured Tau, Eldar, and combinations including up to 4 riptides. The 4 riptide list had less than 30 models I believe and excelled at defeating wave serpents, FMC daemons, and elite armies in general.

So now (some of us) are discussing counter list ideas and throwing unit A against riptide B is a poor comparison. There are very few units in the game when taken in a vacuum (1 shooting or assault phase vs unit B) that can actually delete their target unit without assistance. Point comparisons are largely useless because it usually takes several units working together to kill entire units. Just like riptides need markerlights, buffmanders, or farseers to maximize their potential.

So if I wanted to build a TAC list that counters the Tau/Eldar dominance, I would consider something like this:
Herald of Khorne + juggernaut, greater reward
Herald of Khorne + juggernaut, greater reward
Herald of Tzeentch + disc, ml3, exalted reward
Herald of Tzeentch + disc, ml3, exalted reward
Flesh Hounds x20
Flesh Hounds x20
Screamers x9
Troops/support to fill the rest

So 3 fast deathstars that can box in riptides or wave serpents quickly and make assault by turn 1/2. Ap2 melee heralds. Disc heralds to grab grimoire, portal, and divination buffs.

 hyv3mynd wrote:

So now (some of us) are discussing counter list ideas and throwing unit A against riptide B is a poor comparison.

Well, you usually kill the Riptide by throwing Unit A at it, don't you? And in the meantime, you try to do it as well and cost-effective as possible. I suppose we can't just say that "My army steamrolls the Riptide, end of story!" because in the meantime, your opponent's army (other than the Riptide) will also do its best to prevent you from killing that thing. And I don't think that we can accurately simulate a whole battle too finally decide what army can beat a min/maxed Tau list. especially with Daemons who can self-destruct on their own and give away victory randomly because some bad rolls.

Yeah, 20 Cornehounds with support can beat a Riptide. But what if their support fails? What if external conditions make the Cornehounds useless (bad terrain, very good opponent, luck)? Can you give me a percentage on these things so we can determine if 20 Cornehounds with support can truly defeat a Riptide? I don't think that you can. And that's why we have this vacuum thing going on and the massive Mathammering. if a unit can beat another unit on its own then it counters it and everything else (bonuses from support) is just extra that makes the coutner even better (more point effective and thus eventually game winning).

 AtoMaki wrote:

1, Dogs have cavalry bases, so only two "circles" can attack if they completely surround the Riptide. That's actually some 16/17 models I guess? Again, with complete surrounding that won't be the case on charge. But it doesn't matter since if all 20 hounds reach the Riptide then something has already gone terribly wrong for the Tau player.
2, Riptides are WS2 but they will also have FnP.
5, Riptides are Strength 6.

1)The second circle would be circling around a circle much much larger in size, due to the added diameter (and therefore added circumference) of the first circle of hounds. 20 wouldn't be difficult with pile in moves.
2) Not everybody takes FnP, especially if they need points for something else. But ok I can roll with that.
3?) (you put "5", I'm assuming you meant "3" ) Fair enough, my tau friend will be happy that he misread that.

The actual maths are:
Hounds: 60 attacks - 39.6 hits - 13.06 wounds - 2.09 actual wounds (after armour save) - 1.37 real wounds (after FnP)
Riptide: 3 attacks - 1 hit - 0.86 wounds - 0.56 real wounds (after invu save)
Time for the Daemon player to pray for the 28% chance of the Riptide failing its morale test. If the Riptide passes, you can wave goodbye to your 320 points because the 225 points Riptide will possibly tie them up for the rest of the game (0.44 real wounds without charging bonuses) and nobody could help out the hounds because they have to surround the Riptide, not giving a path to charge.

I underlined the bits I don't like
As I mentioned in my previous post, mean averages are not an effective measure of expected result. They are best used for comparing two units at doing something specific, quickly, when modal averages are the same.
Modal averages give the *most likely* result, which makes them more useful for expected value mathematics.
So with the stat knowledge, and FnP (and furious charge and hatred, which I forgot last time), the actual *useful* maths is:

Hounds: 60 attacks, WS5 (with hatred) vs WS2, S5 (furious charge) vs T6, 2+, 5+ FnP:
61*(8/9)*(1/3)*(1/6)*(2/3) = 2 wounds

Riptide: 3 attacks, WS2 vs WS5, S6 vs T4, 5++
4*(1/3)*(5/6)*(2/3) = 0 wounds

Ld7 test === 42% chance to fail

(off the charge the hounds do 0 wounds, but they have a decent chance to do wounds)

The Riptide isn't looking very happy now.

Furthermore, this is a 1vs1 charge. The daemons player would be much more likely to multicharge against two riptides, or a riptide and some fire warriors. In case no.1, The unit has tied up more points than it is worth, with a decent chance to kill them. In case no.2, the hounds destroy the FW, sweeping everything.)

Edited for failquotes

Tactical_Genius wrote:

I underlined the bits I don't like

Don't worry, I only wrote "actual" and "real" because English is not my mother language and I couldn't make up a better term for "numbers of wounds after armour save" and "numbers of wounds after FnP" . The "possibly" only meant that maybe the Hounds win another round with some good luck, or maybe the Riptide wins through instability (the Riptide makes more wounds than the cornhounds wo/ charge).
As I mentioned in my previous post, mean averages are not an effective measure of expected result. They are best used for comparing two units

Tactical_Genius wrote:

So with the stat knowledge, and FnP (and furious charge and hatred, which I forgot last time), the actual *useful* maths is:

Hatred? Cornhounds only have Hatred with the Herald, and if the Herald is in then the number of Wounds dealt on the Riptide will increase anyway because of the AP2 melee weapon (i think it will be roughly +1 Wound).

 AtoMaki wrote:

Tactical_Genius wrote:

I underlined the bits I don't like

Don't worry, I only wrote "actual" and "real" because English is not my mother language and I couldn't make up a better term for "numbers of wounds after armour save" and "numbers of wounds after FnP" . The "possibly" only meant that maybe the Hounds win another round with some good luck, or maybe the Riptide wins through instability (the Riptide makes more wounds than the cornhounds wo/ charge).
As I mentioned in my previous post, mean averages are not an effective measure of expected result. They are best used for comparing two units

Tactical_Genius wrote:

So with the stat knowledge, and FnP (and furious charge and hatred, which I forgot last time), the actual *useful* maths is:

Hatred? Cornhounds only have Hatred with the Herald, and if the Herald is in then the number of Wounds dealt on the Riptide will increase anyway because of the AP2 melee weapon (i think it will be roughly +1 Wound).

Oops I read daemon of khorne and somehow didnt read the "(daemons of slaanesh)" bit after hatred It's still two wounds though I think.

Tactical_Genius wrote:

Oops I read daemon of khorne and somehow didnt read the "(daemons of slaanesh)" bit after hatred It's still two wounds though I think.

Not exactly. 60x0.66x0.33x0.16x0.66=1.37 Wounds

 AtoMaki wrote:

Tactical_Genius wrote:

Oops I read daemon of khorne and somehow didnt read the "(daemons of slaanesh)" bit after hatred It's still two wounds though I think.

Not exactly. 60x0.66x0.33x0.16x0.66=1.37 Wounds

Technically it's 61*(2/3)*(1/3)*(1/6)*(2/3) = 1.5
So one wound ('cos it's modal) BTW I didn't actually check when I said "still two" so my bad
But still a decent chance of two.

Anyway my tactical point still stands:
Just hounds multi-charge stuff, the units with heralds charge riptides and nom-nom them

Atomaki you make it sound as if taking down the riptides is impossible, what do you suggest?

 CKO wrote:
Atomaki you make it sound as if taking down the riptides is impossible, what do you suggest?

I know I'm not atomaki, but read my last post (specifically the end bit).
A herald of khorne with lesser reward (for axe of khorne), and the locus that gives hatred, in a big blob of doggies, will either kill or sweep a riptide almost every time, even with FnP.

 CKO wrote:
Atomaki you make it sound as if taking down the riptides is impossible, what do you suggest?

It is definitely not impossible, just very dependent on the unit opposing it. A Rune Priest with Jaws of the World Wolf instagibs the Riptide, a Destroyer Lord with MSS and Wraiths steamrolls it easily, Telepathy spam in general spells doom to that thing and Iron Arm+Warp Speed Daemon Princes make a mockery out of the Riptide.

In my experience, the Rune Priest is the very best option. Take a Rune Priest with Jaws in a Drop Pod and a squad of Grey Hunters and watch the Riptides fall. It is mostly fool-proof (EWO stuff can still mess up the unit) and nearly 100% deadly. Nearly any army can take Space Wolves as allies, so there it is, the perfect Riptide Removal Tool.

The grey knight heavy support monster can rip them up too. Land a wound, then force weapon. Killing monstrous creatures with your own monstrous creature..delicious irony.

I think that the Doom of Malan'tai or a Zoey bomb are great ways of dealing with the Riptides. Land real close (not risky thanks to Mycetic spore) and deploy 1" away to neutralize template overwatch. Then, the Tau player willl without fail panic and Intercept anyway, usually wasting shots on a 3++ unit with 4 or 6 wounds. 3d6 Leadership check or three will usually cause a few wounds or take all, and a Riptide with one wound left can easily be killed by a Flyrant or random wounds or assault. Of course, that is if you really need them dead. I'd rather target the ground troops and outlast him.

 AtoMaki wrote:

 hyv3mynd wrote:

So now (some of us) are discussing counter list ideas and throwing unit A against riptide B is a poor comparison.

Well, you usually kill the Riptide by throwing Unit A at it, don't you? And in the meantime, you try to do it as well and cost-effective as possible. I suppose we can't just say that "My army steamrolls the Riptide, end of story!" because in the meantime, your opponent's army (other than the Riptide) will also do its best to prevent you from killing that thing. And I don't think that we can accurately simulate a whole battle too finally decide what army can beat a min/maxed Tau list. especially with Daemons who can self-destruct on their own and give away victory randomly because some bad rolls.

Yeah, 20 Cornehounds with support can beat a Riptide. But what if their support fails? What if external conditions make the Cornehounds useless (bad terrain, very good opponent, luck)? Can you give me a percentage on these things so we can determine if 20 Cornehounds with support can truly defeat a Riptide? I don't think that you can. And that's why we have this vacuum thing going on and the massive Mathammering. if a unit can beat another unit on its own then it counters it and everything else (bonuses from support) is just extra that makes the coutner even better (more point effective and thus eventually game winning).

Also you have to take into account if he is only fielding one Riptide, all those lists at Nova were fielding 3-4. 20 Hounds may take out 1 but can they finish off 3-4, I think not.

 Spartan089 wrote:

 AtoMaki wrote:

 hyv3mynd wrote:

So now (some of us) are discussing counter list ideas and throwing unit A against riptide B is a poor comparison.

Well, you usually kill the Riptide by throwing Unit A at it, don't you? And in the meantime, you try to do it as well and cost-effective as possible. I suppose we can't just say that "My army steamrolls the Riptide, end of story!" because in the meantime, your opponent's army (other than the Riptide) will also do its best to prevent you from killing that thing. And I don't think that we can accurately simulate a whole battle too finally decide what army can beat a min/maxed Tau list. especially with Daemons who can self-destruct on their own and give away victory randomly because some bad rolls.

Yeah, 20 Cornehounds with support can beat a Riptide. But what if their support fails? What if external conditions make the Cornehounds useless (bad terrain, very good opponent, luck)? Can you give me a percentage on these things so we can determine if 20 Cornehounds with support can truly defeat a Riptide? I don't think that you can. And that's why we have this vacuum thing going on and the massive Mathammering. if a unit can beat another unit on its own then it counters it and everything else (bonuses from support) is just extra that makes the coutner even better (more point effective and thus eventually game winning).

Also you have to take into account if he is only fielding one Riptide, all those lists at Nova were fielding 3-4. 20 Hounds may take out 1 but can they finish off 3-4, I think not.

You're totally right, one unit of Hounds cannot defeat an entire Tau Army, lol.

Although generally a Dogpile list will involve more than just a single unit of Hounds. Obviously Tau are super strong, but I do think a Dogpile list has the tools to beat Tau (and maybe Eldar as well). That said, the weakness to Dogpile is that other Daemon builds annihilate it.

What would you say is the most competitve Tau/Farsight 1850 list is then?

Tau are strong. Tau aren't totally dominant.

40k doesn't have a real competitive meta in the same way that serious competitive games (DotA, CS, Street Fighter, M:tG, Starcraft) do, so what's popular and successful in tournaments basically just ends up being the flavor of the month rather than what's actually good. In practice there are many highly competitive builds that are now "off the beaten path" simply because of the fast Codex release schedule.

As a result, the field looks much more constrained than it actually is.

Congrats, Tau. The new Space Marine codex effectively does nothing to threaten your position.

Martel732 wrote:
Congrats, Tau. The new Space Marine codex effectively does nothing to threaten your position.

IDK man, less than a thousand points gets you 36 Bikers with 12 Grav Guns (36 shots). That's cheap enough you could throw in a Rune Priest on a bike (Jaws for Tau, Runic Weapon for Daemons and Eldar), some Storm Talons (Drake insurance and general dakka), some Thunderfires (got even better), and whatever else you need.

Plus, BT can run a pretty insane T4 Horde....

Jury is still out

anonymou5 wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
Congrats, Tau. The new Space Marine codex effectively does nothing to threaten your position.

Jury is still out

I'm with Martel on this one...again. Before the new codex marines were scrapping the bottom of the tier list, in fact, they were third from last in the nova results, ahead of only orks and SoB.

Really, what has changed? The book is still 95% the same. The new units are marginal to poor, the old good units are more expensive/worse, and the old bad units are still not amazing. The only change that came out of left field was the thunderfire cannons getting barrage, making the best heavy support choice even better. Expect lots of marine armies with 3+ TF cannons.

Unless there is some manner of hidden uberlist that involves some truly bizarre combos, there's no way they are going to better than middle of the road competitive wise, and certainly won't challenge the necron/eldar/demon/tau power block.

 Carnage43 wrote:

anonymou5 wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
Congrats, Tau. The new Space Marine codex effectively does nothing to threaten your position.

Jury is still out

I'm with Martel on this one...again. Before the new codex marines were scrapping the bottom of the tier list, in fact, they were third from last in the nova results, ahead of only orks and SoB.

Really, what has changed? The book is still 95% the same. The new units are marginal to poor, the old good units are more expensive/worse, and the old bad units are still not amazing. The only change that came out of left field was the thunderfire cannons getting barrage, making the best heavy support choice even better. Expect lots of marine armies with 3+ TF cannons.

Unless there is some manner of hidden uberlist that involves some truly bizarre combos, there's no way they are going to better than middle of the road competitive wise, and certainly won't challenge the necron/eldar/demon/tau power block.

Everything got cheaper for one, which alone is huge. Plus the Chapter Tactics essentially grant you free USRs, which can be leveraged around whatever unit type you want to build around.

Plus, a semi answer to MC spam was presented in the grav gun. A 90 point bike squad will put 3.3 wounds on a Riptide in a shooting phase (or 4.4 if prescienced)

I'm not saying it's a top tier book, I'm saying we don't know yet. I honestly think White Scars (with Thunderfires, Storm Talons and various other support pieces) plus a Rune Priest or two is a solid build, but we'll see.

Self allied with 4 thunderfires. Buy a bastion and hide them in a corner with no LoS. Space marines just got thudd guns. Tigurius can prescience one of them. Even with tiggy and 4 artillery you have points for 60 scoring bodies.

 hyv3mynd wrote:
Self allied with 4 thunderfires. Buy a bastion and hide them in a corner with no LoS. Space marines just got thudd guns. Tigurius can prescience one of them. Even with tiggy and 4 artillery you have points for 60 scoring bodies.

More if your allied detachment is Black Templars.

And they're 60 scoring bodies that will almost never run off the table and cannot be swept. They may not have the firepower or toys that tau do, but they have to rules and bodies to win on objectives.

 hyv3mynd wrote:
And they're 60 scoring bodies that will almost never run off the table and cannot be swept. They may not have the firepower or toys that tau do, but they have to rules and bodies to win on objectives.

A full BT Crusader Squad is under 250 points. That means if you wanted to go Horde you could bring 120 T4 bodies for less than 1500 points....

Think about that for a second.

Edited for points costs

Edited again for math fail

You might need to recalculate that
I only count 100 bodies.

Kangodo wrote:
You might need to recalculate that
I only count 100 bodies.

It's 120, I'm an idiot. Sorry

Maybe. My BA do not fear this book at all, which is not a good sign.

What in this book stops the wave serpent turkey shoot? Nothing.

Martel732 wrote:
Maybe. My BA do not fear this book at all, which is not a good sign.

What in this book stops the wave serpent turkey shoot? Nothing.

Well, I have no idea if horde Marines will prove to be viable, but it will beat Serpents. Labmouse did the math on DPP for Serpents versus Marines, it's not impressive (it's not bad, but it's not doing much to 120 Marines and baby Marines). And 120 Marines is more than enough board presence/krak grenades to eliminate WSs.

Tank Hunter Devestators with Tiggy will do it too. If he wants perfect timing, he will get it.

Drop pod lists got hella cheaper especially with free ones on ASM. I've seen several lists on this very forum with 60+ drop pod bodies. Serpents don't like to be boxed in on turn 2 when every body has krak grenades.

Lascannons centurions seriously spammed. T5 2+ with 2 wounds each are something serpents will have to think twice about. Scatter lasers alone won't kill them and they won't want to drop their shields. Tigurius can make them ignore cover or go fists for tank hunters. Or self ally and do both.

Salamander meltas in drop pods.

Tons of bikes with plasma, melta, and gravs who them assaul with krak grenades.

Those are some starters for anti serpents.

But are those TAC? No list tailoring,. That's why I'm not impressed with this book at all.

And I don't know about you, but I'm not buying dozens of bikers for 40K. If that's what GW thinks, they're nuts.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

anonymou5 wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
Maybe. My BA do not fear this book at all, which is not a good sign.

What in this book stops the wave serpent turkey shoot? Nothing.

Well, I have no idea if horde Marines will prove to be viable, but it will beat Serpents. Labmouse did the math on DPP for Serpents versus Marines, it's not impressive (it's not bad, but it's not doing much to 120 Marines and baby Marines). And 120 Marines is more than enough board presence/krak grenades to eliminate WSs.

Tank Hunter Devestators with Tiggy will do it too. If he wants perfect timing, he will get it.

Doesn't get around serpent shield, but okay. Guess which squad gets vaporized first by the Eldar?

anonymou5 wrote:

 Carnage43 wrote:

anonymou5 wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
Congrats, Tau. The new Space Marine codex effectively does nothing to threaten your position.

Jury is still out

I'm with Martel on this one...again. Before the new codex marines were scrapping the bottom of the tier list, in fact, they were third from last in the nova results, ahead of only orks and SoB.

Really, what has changed? The book is still 95% the same. The new units are marginal to poor, the old good units are more expensive/worse, and the old bad units are still not amazing. The only change that came out of left field was the thunderfire cannons getting barrage, making the best heavy support choice even better. Expect lots of marine armies with 3+ TF cannons.

Unless there is some manner of hidden uberlist that involves some truly bizarre combos, there's no way they are going to better than middle of the road competitive wise, and certainly won't challenge the necron/eldar/demon/tau power block.

Everything got cheaper for one, which alone is huge. Plus the Chapter Tactics essentially grant you free USRs, which can be leveraged around whatever unit type you want to build around.

Plus, a semi answer to MC spam was presented in the grav gun. A 90 point bike squad will put 3.3 wounds on a Riptide in a shooting phase (or 4.4 if prescienced)

I'm not saying it's a top tier book, I'm saying we don't know yet. I honestly think White Scars (with Thunderfires, Storm Talons and various other support pieces) plus a Rune Priest or two is a solid build, but we'll see.

What got cheaper? My typical army got MORE expensive!

Tacticals are literally exactly the same amount of points unless you drop the veteran sergeant, which I'm going to have to, due to increases everywhere else.

My null zone/vortex terminator librarian's power were taken away, so now I'm left rolling random crap or more likely having to switch over to Tigurius, so there's another 25 points I'm out.

My attack bikes went up 5 points each...so that's another 25 I'm out.

My TH/SS terminators went up 25 points. Not to mention their transport lost a seat for my librarian.

My Vindicators went up 10 each, so that's 20.

So yeah, I've got to cut something like 95 points out of my typical 1500 point list. My HQ is better, and I have access to some pretty weak chapter tactics. This book was literally nothing but nerfs for my typical marine list, so basically, and as is typical with any new codex, I have to take my army back to the drawing board and start over.

With TH/SS officially dead and completely useless, land raiders not getting any better and already being poor, and tacticals not improving enough to be competitive, I have a lot of changes to make to say the least.

Yeah, I thought it was a bit douche to get right of cheap tactical weapons.

Martel732 wrote:
But are those TAC? No list tailoring,. That's why I'm not impressed with this book at all.

And I don't know about you, but I'm not buying dozens of bikers for 40K. If that's what GW thinks, they're nuts.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

anonymou5 wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
Maybe. My BA do not fear this book at all, which is not a good sign.

What in this book stops the wave serpent turkey shoot? Nothing.

Well, I have no idea if horde Marines will prove to be viable, but it will beat Serpents. Labmouse did the math on DPP for Serpents versus Marines, it's not impressive (it's not bad, but it's not doing much to 120 Marines and baby Marines). And 120 Marines is more than enough board presence/krak grenades to eliminate WSs.

Tank Hunter Devestators with Tiggy will do it too. If he wants perfect timing, he will get it.

Doesn't get around serpent shield, but okay. Guess which squad gets vaporized first by the Eldar?

Tbh your responses are predictably pessimistic and cynical. I'm sorry you have such a negative view of the game due to the army you chose to play getting nerfed. I don't expect to have a productive conversation with you since literally every time you respond it smacks of the same pessimism.

FWIW serpent shields won't do jack against tank hunter lascannon centurion with tiggy for perfect timing. The shield does not prevent lost hull points. Once you ignore their cover; it's exceedingly easy for str9 with rerolls to hit and rerolls to pen to cause 3 hull points. Like I said earlier, serpents would be forced to keep shields up and 4 laser shots a turn will never take down a max unit of cents. Not to mention the very good possibility of tiggy tanking wounds with refillable 2+/3++.

And yes tho expensive I would consider 6 imperial fist cents with tiggy a TAC unit.

I'm not to sure about the new SM book as a stand alone list. In that I have my doubts. However 6th edition is all about allies and you can get all the power Hyv3mind speaks about from the Centurions by attaching a Tau buff commander to them and letting the special abilities flow. Tau and SM are battle brothers.

You realize you'd have to ally Tigurius in right? So you are automatically at 2 HQ and 3 troop choice choices to start. Not to mention Tig isn't guaranteed Perfect timing (I think 75% chance to get it if my math is right.).

Then you have a 490 point cent squad (assume you don't also upgrade the cents with missile launchers) and a 165 point special character.

655 points for 6 TL, tanks hunter lascannons is silly. I mean, sure, you are going to kill a single wave serpent per turn, with 655+ points, but that's not really enough for that many points IMO.

DarthDiggler wrote:
I'm not to sure about the new SM book as a stand alone list. In that I have my doubts. However 6th edition is all about allies and you can get all the power Hyv3mind speaks about from the Centurions by attaching a Tau buff commander to them and letting the special abilities flow. Tau and SM are battle brothers.

Wow, you are right. The buffmander from tau does give TL and tank hunter.....why bother with the IF chapter tactic then? Why not go with Iron hands for free FnP and tougher vehicles/characters.

Actually the serpent shields turn pricey lascannons into ROF 1 hull strippers. Good luck winning that race with the Eldar focus firing your weapons that can hurt the wave serpents.

Plus, the amount of points you are paying to do this is incredible.

How is Tigerius getting a 3++ save?

Plus, there are other lists in the game other than Eldar. That's the problem.

I'm pessimistic because math is bitch, and the Eldar and Tau still have it on their side in spades. And I'm also pessimistic because the other list that I MIGHT be able to pull off has a crap codex that does nothing really to change the meta. Maybe the Orks and Tyranids will force some kind of change, because the Tau and Eldar laugh at this book.

DarthDiggler wrote:
I'm not to sure about the new SM book as a stand alone list. In that I have my doubts. However 6th edition is all about allies and you can get all the power Hyv3mind speaks about from the Centurions by attaching a Tau buff commander to them and letting the special abilities flow. Tau and SM are battle brothers.

Well yes but since the thread is about breakin tau dominance, I wanted to not recommend using more tau because...

I normally get upset when one of my threads gets of course but I actually play marines so the new codex talk is ok. I think grav weapons and jaws is a good way to kill riptides.

Just a quick theory.

Would a Black Legion ally with a Sorcerer/Daemon Prince equipped with the Last Memory of Yuranthos be an alright pick against Tau?

Potentially 18" bubble that causes 2D6 hits per unit, AP 5, Ignores Cover and the most important part..... causes Blind.

Most Tau units that are actually threatening have an Initiative of 2 no? Why not Deepstrike in a Sorcerer/Daemon Prince and activate the spell? Could be worth it.

Scouting white scar bikes with grav weapons will kill riptides turn one. take hundreds of 'em.

12" scout, 12" movement + 18" range = 42" range on grav-guns
That would probably do the trick.

It'll also cause serious problems for serpent spam by immobilising them. Ive got 50 bikes, where can I get 50 grav weapons?

Lou_Cypher wrote:
Just a quick theory.

Would a Black Legion ally with a Sorcerer/Daemon Prince equipped with the Last Memory of Yuranthos be an alright pick against Tau?

Potentially 18" bubble that causes 2D6 hits per unit, AP 5, Ignores Cover and the most important part..... causes Blind.

Most Tau units that are actually threatening have an Initiative of 2 no? Why not Deepstrike in a Sorcerer/Daemon Prince and activate the spell? Could be worth it.

This would have been a good answer to tau, cept all suits (re: riptide) have blacksun and therefore ignore both nightfight and blind.

Martel732 wrote:
Maybe. My BA do not fear this book at all, which is not a good sign.

What in this book stops the wave serpent turkey shoot? Nothing.

Serpents get wrecked by grav weapons.
3 bikes with two grav guns + combi-grav will immobilise a serpent every turn, and it only takes two sixes to kill one completely. This makes serpents not worth their points against grav, because the extra points you pay for serpent shield protection and cover saves mean diddly-squat against it.
Serpent spam will really fear grav spam.

Tactical_Genius wrote:

3 bikes with two grav guns + combi-grav will immobilise a serpent every turn,

They only have 50% chance to do this because grac weapons don't ignore cover. So the Wave Serpent will still take his 4+ cover save against the single grav weapon effect. Unless you take the first turn with your scouting bikes .

 AtoMaki wrote:

Tactical_Genius wrote:

3 bikes with two grav guns + combi-grav will immobilise a serpent every turn,

They only have 50% chance to do this because grac weapons don't ignore cover. So the Wave Serpent will still take his 4+ cover save against the single grav weapon effect. Unless you take the first turn with your scouting bikes .

Incorrect.

Vehicles are only allowed to take cover saves against glancing or penetrating hits. Gravs cause neither.

Tactical_Genius wrote:

 AtoMaki wrote:

Tactical_Genius wrote:

3 bikes with two grav guns + combi-grav will immobilise a serpent every turn,

They only have 50% chance to do this because grac weapons don't ignore cover. So the Wave Serpent will still take his 4+ cover save against the single grav weapon effect. Unless you take the first turn with your scouting bikes .

Incorrect.

Vehicles are only allowed to take cover saves against glancing or penetrating hits. Gravs cause neither.

Yeah, I was actually wondering about this. But I wouldn't force this so much least my opponent tells me to remove all my special weapons equipped Bikers .

 AtoMaki wrote:

Tactical_Genius wrote:

 AtoMaki wrote:

Tactical_Genius wrote:

3 bikes with two grav guns + combi-grav will immobilise a serpent every turn,

They only have 50% chance to do this because grac weapons don't ignore cover. So the Wave Serpent will still take his 4+ cover save against the single grav weapon effect. Unless you take the first turn with your scouting bikes .

Incorrect.

Vehicles are only allowed to take cover saves against glancing or penetrating hits. Gravs cause neither.

Yeah, I was actually wondering about this. But I wouldn't force this so much least my opponent tells me to remove all my special weapons equipped Bikers .

Haha Fair enough although the special weapons biker thing is quite clearly an oversight, and the intent is obvious, whereas the cover saves thing could be intended.

 AtoMaki wrote:


Yeah, I was actually wondering about this. But I wouldn't force this so much least my opponent tells me to remove all my special weapons equipped Bikers .

I feel like I'm missing something... why would your opponent tell you to remove special weapons bikers?

Because RAW, bikers can't take special weapons.

pg 174 Top entry. [i]"up to two bikers may each take one item from the special weapons list"[/

edit: do you mean command squads?

No, bikers have no boltguns or melee weapons to trade out as per the special weapon rules.

Don't panic, it's a typo and it's already a crime in most countries to 'rules-lawyer' this.
The Church has also condemned it as a sin and GW will probably FAQ it soon.

Does not a pistol count as a melee weapon? Bikers have pistols.

Maybe they can trade the boltguns on the bikes.

Nope and nope But it'll get fixed.

On a slightly related note, lets say you put 3 gravs on a bike squad and you roll two 6's against a vehicle. Does that ammount to 3 hull points and an immobile result ? Since in the brb it states that subsequent immobile results become an extra hullpoint instead.

Page 51 of the BRB states that pistols can be used as a cc weapon, and actually state that it uses the profile for a cc weapon in that section, and ignores the ranged stats.

As such, when using pistols in cc they gain the stats of a cc weapon, which includes the melee rule, and therefore pistols should be considered melee weapons that can be replaced by special weapons.

As for grav vs. vehicles, it makes sense from a fluff perspective, since you're altering the physics around the vehicle, not hitting the vehicle with a shell or something. Still, I could see them FAQing that to allow for vehicle cover saves for balance purposes.

The point though, is that bikers may take special weapons under the rules just fine and grav can totally ignore vehicle cover saves, which means your grav bikers can totally rip through Tau riptides and vehicles just fine.

It's best policy to play by RAW, not RAI. RAI has a horrible tendency to turn into whatever is best for the person doing the intending.

So for right now, no special weapons for bikes. Else, you are cheating.

Martel732 wrote:
It's best policy to play by RAW, not RAI. RAI has a horrible tendency to turn into whatever is best for the person doing the intending.

So for right now, no special weapons for bikes. Else, you are cheating.

Except it's not necessarily rules as intended. Read BRB page 51. It says pistols can be used as a cc weapon, which implies is has two weapon profiles, a melee profile and a ranged profile. The melee profile makes it a melee weapon.

The crux of the issue comes down to whether saying something "can be used as" is the same as saying "it is" under RAW, or whether that's RAI. Seeing as the ability to use the pistol in melee is inherent to the pistol, I think it's RAW.

The first person that disallows me to take Grav-guns will be deported to Siberia.

Really, there is a difference between RAI and "RAI"..
There is not a single person in the world, except you of course, that would argue it's not intended for them to take a special weapon.

DogofWar1 wrote:
Page 51 of the BRB states that pistols can be used as a cc weapon, and actually state that it uses the profile for a cc weapon in that section, and ignores the ranged stats.

But does it HAVE the melee type or can it be used as if it had the CCW-profile? That's a small difference.
Either way it still needs to get FAQ'd because it's too confusing and weirdly worded.
Maybe we need a new term: RASW (Rules as Stupidly Written).

Kangodo wrote:
The first person that disallows me to take Grav-guns will be deported to Siberia.

Really, there is a difference between RAI and "RAI"..
There is not a single person in the world, except you of course, that would argue it's not intended for them to take a special weapon.

DogofWar1 wrote:
Page 51 of the BRB states that pistols can be used as a cc weapon, and actually state that it uses the profile for a cc weapon in that section, and ignores the ranged stats.

But does it HAVE the melee type or can it be used as if it had the CCW-profile? That's a small difference.
Either way it still needs to get FAQ'd because it's too confusing and weirdly worded.
Maybe we need a new term: RASW (Rules as Stupidly Written).

Right, the question of whether is HAS the melee type or whether it can be used as though it had the melee type could be a potential problem because of sloppy wording, but honestly I think people are trying to deny bikers something they clearly can take, and the reasonable RAW interpretation is that pistols are melee weapons. The fact that you can always use the pistol as a ccw, in that that ability is inherent to the pistol, based upon RAW, I think makes it clear that the bolt pistol has both a ranged and melee profile and is therefore a melee weapon.

People aren't denying them. GW did. Whether its an accident (which I think it is) or not requires their clarification.

Also, bolt pistols are distinct from melee weapons within this codex. That can not be used as an end around for GWs possible mistake.

"Really, there is a difference between RAI and "RAI".. "

Unfortunately, there is no way to distinguish between these, and so this is really not true. GW need to write down what the reality is, and not leave up for players interpretations. That always leads to trouble.

I just love how everyone's saying "Tau aren't that tough, your're just not doing it right". So it's just the other thousands of us who can't figure it out. If that is the case go win a tournament & tell me when I can stop holding my breath. Do you not think that these NOVA players have extensively playtested their lists against the worst, nastiest things out there? You may have good results at your FLGS, but doing that against elite level players who have played their lists hundreds of times against other elite players is another world of competition. I know when I am preparing for a tournament, I play against every worst case scenario matchup repeatedly, even when it means my opponent has to proxy 4 heldrakes.

Martel732 wrote:
Unfortunately, there is no way to distinguish between these, and so this is really not true. GW need to write down what the reality is, and not leave up for players interpretations. That always leads to trouble.

"Up to two Space Marine Bikers may each take one item from the Special Weapons list."
I think that line makes the intent quite clear, so there is a way to distinguish between the two.

Martel732 wrote:
People aren't denying them. GW did. Whether its an accident (which I think it is) or not requires their clarification.

Also, bolt pistols are distinct from melee weapons within this codex. That can not be used as an end around for GWs possible mistake.

"Really, there is a difference between RAI and "RAI".. "

Unfortunately, there is no way to distinguish between these, and so this is really not true. GW need to write down what the reality is, and not leave up for players interpretations. That always leads to trouble.

What do you mean by "bolt pistols are distinct from melee weapons within this codex"? Sure, it's under the "ranged" section, but it follows the rules from the BRB according to the codex. And the rules from the BRB give pistols a profile for use in assault with the melee rule, making it a melee weapon that can be replaced. If they had said in the SM codex "bolt pistols do not follow the BRB rules for bolt pistols, but rather follow the profile stated here *insert ranged profile here*" then you could perhaps make your argument, in that they would be distinguished from regular bolt pistols which are melee weapons with a melee profile. Even that though would be suspect logically though, since it would likely still have the pistol rule, and it is the pistol rule that makes them ccws, and therefore melee weapons, so really they would always be melee weapons unless you specifically removed the pistol rule for the bolt pistol.

I'm sure they will clarify because people have made such a stink about it, but to say it is cheating to take special weapons in a bike squad is not accurate. That is your interpretation, and there are both written rules and clear intention to dispute your interpretation.

Also, according to CrashCanuck over in the FAQ answers thread in YMDC, grenades also count as melee weapons, which is supported by the BRB. So you could replace either the frag or krak grenades with a special weapon too (probably not frag because of assault initiative stuff, but swapping krak for a sw is fine).

Regardless, there are three pieces of wargear a marine on a bike may swap out for a special weapon, so grav gun those Riptides to death from the safety of a bike to your heart's content.

I think tough troops (allied?), 'hidden troops' or an ethereal to support will become ever more important.

Reason why - the ability to cause damage to infantry at range has just become silly. Cheap dual special drop-pod ASM's. Troop-choice speeder storms. Thunderfire cannons.

Focus on troops. Focus on markerlights (and/especially pathfinder markerlights). My 2 cents.

DogofWar1 wrote:

What do you mean by "bolt pistols are distinct from melee weapons within this codex"? Sure, it's under the "ranged" section, but it follows the rules from the BRB according to the codex. And the rules from the BRB give pistols a profile for use in assault with the melee rule, making it a melee weapon that can be replaced. .

I'm not exactly sure if you are in an assault when you are replacing the bolt pistol... I mean, assault=/=army creation (most of the time at least). IfyouknowwhatImean .

What is the Tau powerbuild?


Why are they so powerful?

Thatguyoverthere11 wrote:
What is the Tau powerbuild?


Why are they so powerful?

There is no Tau "powerbuild". The codex is just so infinitely flexible that most lists that come out of it are relatively good and decent Take-All-Comers lists. This in turn makes it difficult for the majority of armies to make valid Take-All-Comers lists because each Tau list will vary from one person to the next so whilst the Tau player retains their momentum in a tournament you could potentially come to a stand still because one Tau player has taken MissileSide Spam over Riptide spam.

I think this kind of flexibility is a good thing as it stops the meta from becoming over-centralised, however, it's only a good thing if every codex out there can do it. Otherwise, we end up with the situation as it is now where Tau are undoubtedly one of the top three armies in the game at the moment and arguably, the best because of its inherent flexibility.

Iranna.

Can we say what the competitive choices are?

Buff-commanders
Ethereals
Fireblades
Farsight/Shadow sun together

Riptides
Crisis

Fire Warriors (spammed)
Kroot snipers

Missile sides


Anything else?

Thatguyoverthere11 wrote:
Can we say what the competitive choices are?

Easier to say what choices are not competitive:
- Named Ethereals
- Darkstrider
- Fireblades (so-so)
- Stealth Suits
- Kroothounds/Krootox
- Razor/Sunshark (the Razorshark is a so-so)
- Vespids
- Piranhas
- HRR Broadsides

Everything else is competitive.

Wrong on strider, he makes a decent second HQ for that one squad in a devilfish that goes for a relic steal/backfield steal.
Also, wrong on prianhas, they are a good choice in farsight armies.


Naturally both applies to the actual rules, not the silly NOVA missions where balance is thrown off the window because setting elites into "hard to kill" can score points on its own. (also half the reason riptides dominate there, they actually score points, so you gotta kill them rather then "kill their markers and leave them be, harder to kill then the damage output" they are.)

Isn't a Fireblade a great addition if you take Tau as allies?
I have always thought of them as the cheapest and best option if you take a minimal Tau-ally.

Kangodo wrote:
Isn't a Fireblade a great addition if you take Tau as allies?
I have always thought of them as the cheapest and best option if you take a minimal Tau-ally.

That's why i added the "so-so". They are good as a cheap ally HQ tax but pretty bad for anything else.

The problem with Darkstrider is that Tau doesn't have to play the objective game (that's one of the main reasons of its strength) so anything that helps you to play the objective game is kinda' redundant. Also, he is 100 points, and that's a lot for what he can do.

The Piranha's problem is that you have to spam it liek crazy to be good and since it occupies a FA slot, lots of Piranhas = no markerlights. And markerlights worth their points in gold unlike the Piranhas that are gimmicky at best.

 AtoMaki wrote:


I'm not exactly sure if you are in an assault when you are replacing the bolt pistol... I mean, assault=/=army creation (most of the time at least). IfyouknowwhatImean .

I think this is debatable, and there are some posts on this over in YMDC, the general faq thread. Since page 52 doesn't say anything about "only" in the assault phase, it says "also". Then on 51 it doesn't mention any phases or phase restrictions.

But the real nail in the coffin is the "no specified melee weapon" rule on page 51. If bolt pistols are pseudo-melee weapons, then that rule gets invoked, and wacky stuff starts happening all throughout the game, like Tac squads having 2 ccws. The results of that are so opposed to conventional wisdom that the no specified melee weapon rule cannot apply, and yet, if bolt pistols aren't melee weapons, it must. The logical result we found in the YMDC thread is that bolt pistols are ccws. Grenades were left in the air because all parties involved were tired.

As for Tau power builds, the general tournament strategy seems to be Riptides+Markerlights= profit. There are other cool toys too though, missile sides put out a truly absurd number of missiles, enough to give even a horse army pause for thought.

 AtoMaki wrote:

The problem with Darkstrider is that Tau doesn't have to play the objective game (that's one of the main reasons of its strength) so anything that helps you to play the objective game is kinda' redundant. Also, he is 100 points, and that's a lot for what he can do.

As said, outside of the nonsense NOVA missions. in regular missions tau can't afford to ignore the objective game as much, considering having two objectives outside of LOS to your castle is possible to be setup. (or even just out of reach by placing them away from the ADL)
Tau castle does not really work in regular games.

 AtoMaki wrote:

The Piranha's problem is that you have to spam it liek crazy to be good and since it occupies a FA slot, lots of Piranhas = no markerlights. And markerlights worth their points in gold unlike the Piranhas that are gimmicky at best.

And that's why I said farsight armies.
Bare-bones they are cheap as hell, and not much of a target worth wasting the good shots on once the drones leave, but AV11 ignores most basic guns.
They supply you the S5AP5 back (as firewarriors cost a bit more, they lose out of efficiency) and allows you to keep your entire army fast and mobile.
And as they technically cost 16 (after you drop the drone costs, using the lower "part of squad" cost, if you used the independent cost they are 12 points.) its cheap enough of a unit that using it as a mere roadblock wont even feel like it cost you.
As for the FA slot, it hardly matters. enclave can get all the markers they ever need from drones mingled in crsis teams at troops. and maybe a single squad of supported drones, or tetras if you play with forgeworld.
Once you realise your entire army is JSJ/skimmer, you learn to take advantage and ignore the pathfinders. (they cost a bit more there anyway)
Enclave plays very different from tau. and the piranha notices.

 BoomWolf wrote:

 AtoMaki wrote:

The problem with Darkstrider is that Tau doesn't have to play the objective game (that's one of the main reasons of its strength) so anything that helps you to play the objective game is kinda' redundant. Also, he is 100 points, and that's a lot for what he can do.

As said, outside of the nonsense NOVA missions. in regular missions tau can't afford to ignore the objective game as much, considering having two objectives outside of LOS to your castle is possible to be setup. (or even just out of reach by placing them away from the ADL)
Tau castle does not really work in regular games.

In my experience, it does. Out of the 6, two missions allows the Tau player to have extra scoring units, one is KP based, one is 1-1 objectives and one is a single objective. Even in Crusade you can force an advantageous objective setup with smart placement. Unless you fight on a Cities of Death table or something similar 80%+ LoS blocking terrain.

Oh, and don't forget that Riptides always contest, no matter the mission. And a contested objective is as good as captured - if you have one, contest 3 and wipe out the enemy from his then you won. Bonus points if your enemy had actually put effort into playing the objective game, restricting his movement, tactics and army composition.

 AtoMaki wrote:

Easier to say what choices are not competitive:
- Named Ethereals

How dare you insult the space pope like that...
On a more serious note since the new codex I've ben meaning to start a Tau army (not due to their cheesiness, just cos I like the look of them and army dynamics)
After reading this thread I figure I might as well go full cheese and take 3 riptides
Well I guess that's not full cheese, due to not doing the full 4 allies thing, but still... screw crisis suits!