Hi all. I'm curious how competitive Tau lists are constructed. At 1850+ I see very few troop choices so I'm curious what their main aim is in the game. Below is the second place winning list of NOVA. I'm not very familiar with Tau yet but how many troop choices are there in that list? Why do I see a lot of tournament level Tau lists with so few troops? I don't see very many Fire Warriors... unless I'm just looking in the wrong place. Is there any major event Tau lists out there that anyone can link/post that may have more Fire Warriors/Troops than the one below? I'm looking to start building my own Tau lists soon and I like looking at competitive lists to start a base for my own. However, I'm just having such a hard time figuring how they take and control objectives. Any insight would be great.
TLDR: Why do tournament level Tau lists like the one below have such few troop choices? Where are all the Fire Warriors? Do you not need a lot of Fire Warriors/Kroots to have a good, well-rounded, competitive list to claim objectives with?
By running Farsight and the allied in there, that's 7 troop choices as the Crisis Suits are all troops.
Anyway, for many, many years the Tau players have learned to skimp on the Firewarriors because they weren't all that great. The Kroot weren't so hot either. Instead Tau focused on high firepower choices like Broadsides and Crisis Suits and tried to blast their opponents off the game board instead of controlling objectives.
Move forward with that Mindset to the current edition and, while Firewarriors have improved, there is much more firepower available to Tau with the Riptide and improved Crisis Suits. The result is lists like the above determined to put as much of that firepower on the table and almost ignoring objective play (4 of the troop choices have a single model).
These lists are hard to beat due to their obscene amount of firepower and the fact that that firepower is spread through the entire list so killing off units doesn't reduce the pain very quickly.
Jefffar wrote: By running Farsight and the allied in there, that's 7 troop choices as the Crisis Suits are all troops.
Anyway, for many, many years the Tau players have learned to skimp on the Firewarriors because they weren't all that great. The Kroot weren't so hot either. Instead Tau focused on high firepower choices like Broadsides and Crisis Suits and tried to blast their opponents off the game board instead of controlling objectives.
Move forward with that Mindset to the current edition and, while Firewarriors have improved, there is much more firepower available to Tau with the Riptide and improved Crisis Suits. The result is lists like the above determined to put as much of that firepower on the table and almost ignoring objective play (4 of the troop choices have a single model).
These lists are hard to beat due to their obscene amount of firepower and the fact that that firepower is spread through the entire list so killing off units doesn't reduce the pain very quickly.
Hm... Interesting. I can't seem to find where Commander Farsight makes the Crisis Suits troop choices. >_< Do they take up Troop slots? Can they act seperately or are they attached to Farsight o_o?
Also, that makes sense. So they try more for the weight of firepower over objective camping. Sort of like the original leaf blower IG list in 5e when I use to play I'm guessing. Also, just curious, how have Crisis Suits improved?
As for improvements to the Crisis Suits, they are cheaper, ignore night fighting and able to fire two weapons at a time now. Even better they can take doubles of the same weapon and some of their weapons have improved.
For example a single crisis suit can now fire 4 st 6 ap 2 shots or 8 st 5 ap 5 shots or 4 st 7 ap 4 shots or 2 st 8 ap 1 shots that roll an extra penetration die at 9 inches.
The Riptide is the real beast of course and by moving Crisis to troops there is no competition for the vaunted elite slot. An Enclaves list like the one above, can put 4 Riptides into a singe detachment (one is an HQ choice). Adding on allied Tau brings it to 5 Riptides. Doubling the FOC is 7 Riptides and double FOC with allied Tau gives you 9 Jet Pack Monstrous Creatures capable of throwing out up to a dozen St 6 Rending shots, 3 strength 7 AP 2 shots or a big St 8 AP 2 plate each. These bad boys can be configured with Skyfire, Interceptor and/or Feel No Pain as well.
In short, Tauzilla plus Enclavewing is going to be nasty until someone comes up with a hard counter.
I never thought I would hear 'Tauzilla'. Your post makes me sad. Now I have to go comfort my broods of Carnifexen, thanks a lot.
But in all seriousness, the shooty MC spam that they can bring is unreal. The markerlights reducing cover saves has been the real challenge for me, as I rely on cover completely. Literally the only list that has worked for me is a Tervigon spam list, and I just remove models all game until I -typically- win on objectives. But even that is unreliable.
Instat death and poison wounds can be of some use, but then you're facing ...special... overwatch. Sigh.
GavCanon Centurions look like they have potential versus the Riptide and similar MC spam, but their inability to deal instant-death means that the Riptides will get to reply with weaponry that bypasses the Centurions' armour and wounds on a 2+ as well.
For riptide death you really need something that is AP 2 or better and causes instant death. Most all of that is melee based however and a good Tau Player won't let that live long enough to get into melee.
This tournament list plays off the fact that ICs can join riptides. O'vesa is an IC so he will join the riptide w/ target lock. The commander will then join that riptide. What you end up with is two riptides that are twin linked, ignore cover, have tank/monster hunter and are near impossible to kill thanks to a combination of look out sirs and wound allocation tricks (seriously you need to get through 18 t6 sv2+/5++ wounds to kill that beasts, the unit also has hit and run so you can't tie it down and 4d6 deny the witch. Most people simply don't know what to do about it.
The crisis suits are cheap mobile troops, they have missile pods with 36" range and can jsj so they will most likely deepstrike in, shoot, and hide behind los blocking terrain. Then use their speed to grab objectives. Kroot are similar, they outflank and grab objectives, not really used for killing.
Firewarriors are okay but not great. I had a bunch left over from before 6th and they work out well but they also run off the board more often than not.
Yup, IC abuse abounds as well. It used to be the Tau didn't have such great ability granting IC options.
The Forge World XV-107 is rumored to be a Heavy Support Choice and it's primary weapons will likely ignore cover. I am sure that in FW allowed tournaments it will add to the multi-MC mayhem.
lambsandlions wrote: This tournament list plays off the fact that ICs can join riptides. O'vesa is an IC so he will join the riptide w/ target lock. The commander will then join that riptide. What you end up with is two riptides that are twin linked, ignore cover, have tank/monster hunter and are near impossible to kill thanks to a combination of look out sirs and wound allocation tricks (seriously you need to get through 18 t6 sv2+/5++ wounds to kill that beasts, the unit also has hit and run so you can't tie it down and 4d6 deny the witch. Most people simply don't know what to do about it.
The crisis suits are cheap mobile troops, they have missile pods with 36" range and can jsj so they will most likely deepstrike in, shoot, and hide behind los blocking terrain. Then use their speed to grab objectives. Kroot are similar, they outflank and grab objectives, not really used for killing.
Firewarriors are okay but not great. I had a bunch left over from before 6th and they work out well but they also run off the board more often than not.
Tau are the pinultimate power in the universe for good. That is why they win. The good guys always do.
=)
He has a lot of troops as was said, so that part of the original question is pretty well answered. This army is good because of how mobile it can be. Only an equally mobile force will be able to handle it. That's why i favor deployment-option heavy armies. I can't get outmaneuvered and I can always use the threat of time on my side of things. This list can do similar things: slow dribble scoring units if it needs to and in the meantime limit enemy targets to only those he wants you to fire at initially when your shooting is strongest against him. he's giving you the lowest possible chance of success against him and giving you nothing easy to kill, then he's inserting surgically the firepower he needs to get the jump on you so that any exchanges are on a favorable basis.
lambsandlions wrote: This tournament list plays off the fact that ICs can join riptides. O'vesa is an IC so he will join the riptide w/ target lock. The commander will then join that riptide. What you end up with is two riptides that are twin linked, ignore cover, have tank/monster hunter and are near impossible to kill thanks to a combination of look out sirs and wound allocation tricks (seriously you need to get through 18 t6 sv2+/5++ wounds to kill that beasts, the unit also has hit and run so you can't tie it down and 4d6 deny the witch. Most people simply don't know what to do about it.
The crisis suits are cheap mobile troops, they have missile pods with 36" range and can jsj so they will most likely deepstrike in, shoot, and hide behind los blocking terrain. Then use their speed to grab objectives. Kroot are similar, they outflank and grab objectives, not really used for killing.
Firewarriors are okay but not great. I had a bunch left over from before 6th and they work out well but they also run off the board more often than not.
Thank the emprah nobody at my FLGS is WAAC enough to play this unit. It's just, dammit, I hate use this word, but it's broken. I mean seriously what unit/list/army in the game could ever reliably take this thing down? Especially if it gets even one round of shooting off at you? I definitely don't know what to do.
Jancoran wrote: Tau are the pinultimate power in the universe for good. That is why they win. The good guys always do.
=)
He has a loto f troops as was said, so that part of the original question is pretty well answered. This army is good because of how mobile it can be. Only an equally mobile force will be able to handle it. Tbhats why i favor deployment option heavy armies. I can't get outmeneuvered and I canalways use the threat of time on my side of things. This list can do similar things: slow dribble scoring units if it needs to and in the meantime limit enemy targets to only those he wants you to fire at initially when your shooting is strongest against him. he's giving you the lowest possible chance of success against him and giving you nothing easy to kill, then he's inserting surgically the firepower he needs to get the jump on you so that any exchanges are on a favorable basis.
Thanks man! Great input.
Since I've just recently (2 weeks ago) started 40k again 6e...I don't really know much about supplements. Where do I get the info on Farsight Enclave? I don't understand how you don't need to take Commander Farsight but still benefit from Crisis Suits as troops. Just declaring you are part of the Farsight Enclave army allows your Crisis Suits to be Troops??
It's a separate book from the Tau Empire codex. It has different special characters/wargear and crisis suits are troops choices. Best way to run tau right now is either Tau Empire w/ Farsight Enclave allies or vice versa.
lambsandlions wrote: This tournament list plays off the fact that ICs can join riptides. O'vesa is an IC so he will join the riptide w/ target lock. The commander will then join that riptide. What you end up with is two riptides that are twin linked, ignore cover, have tank/monster hunter and are near impossible to kill thanks to a combination of look out sirs and wound allocation tricks (seriously you need to get through 18 t6 sv2+/5++ wounds to kill that beasts, the unit also has hit and run so you can't tie it down and 4d6 deny the witch. Most people simply don't know what to do about it.
The crisis suits are cheap mobile troops, they have missile pods with 36" range and can jsj so they will most likely deepstrike in, shoot, and hide behind los blocking terrain. Then use their speed to grab objectives. Kroot are similar, they outflank and grab objectives, not really used for killing.
Firewarriors are okay but not great. I had a bunch left over from before 6th and they work out well but they also run off the board more often than not.
Thank the emprah nobody at my FLGS is WAAC enough to play this unit. It's just, dammit, I hate use this word, but it's broken. I mean seriously what unit/list/army in the game could ever reliably take this thing down? Especially if it gets even one round of shooting off at you? I definitely don't know what to do.
You could always write to GW and kindly ask them to do proper playtesting
Honestly, half the reason this works is because NOVA missions are a bit silly in the fact you don't even NEED troops to win.
Because this list got "lots of troops" on paper, but in the end its just 20 kroot and 14 marines, not alot by any scratch.
As for the double riptides with support commander...
Heck, I don't know. its rather lethal, and hopefully FAQed in some way (i'm enclaves player myself and I cant help asking who on earth was this dumb to do a riptide IC) heck, forbid IC to join riptides, it was OBVIOUSLY not intended.
Try plasma spam, or grav spam.
ID weapons are also a good choice.
A fast and solid assault unit might also get it done, just make sure to cut down drones to drop the commander first to make them unable to run.
Thats why i am always against tournaments that favor missions without troop requirements. Its what keeps cheesy lists down because they usually dont have many if any troops worth shaking a stick at. Remove the troops they do got and just try and survive, you should win barring bad luck/positioning. Ideally, of course.
Farsight suppliment is currently an ipad ebook only right now. October 13/14 or something like that its suppose to come out on paper, and im waiting for it.
Also, playing devils advocate here, i bet they were expecting the double riptide unit with the riptide IC. What the hell else would the IC rules be used for? Joining any other unit actually hurts the riptide unless its a buffmander. Technically he can jump into a stealth team and get stealth + shroud but now hes T3 lol that kinda hurts.
An effective way to take care of riptides is to multi-assault a softer unit and sweep the riptide with the victory. A careful commander wont let that happen but sometimes you can't prevent it.
Also, playing devils advocate here, i bet they were expecting the double riptide unit with the riptide IC. What the hell else would the IC rules be used for? Joining any other unit actually hurts the riptide unless its a buffmander. Technically he can jump into a stealth team and get stealth + shroud but now hes T3 lol that kinda hurts.
O'vesa comes with two shielded missile drones so he can join a unit of 3 stealth suits or a unite of 3 crisis suits and they will have t6. Just don't let your drones die first and you are golden. But really I would never match the riptide up with a 18'' gun. Crisis suits with missile pods is another story as they pair up with the drones well and O'vesa makes an amazing shield for the suits.
@BlueRift
That works when tau plays gunline, but in a list like this the riptides will probably not be close enough for a multi-assault.
Also, playing devils advocate here, i bet they were expecting the double riptide unit with the riptide IC. What the hell else would the IC rules be used for? Joining any other unit actually hurts the riptide unless its a buffmander. Technically he can jump into a stealth team and get stealth + shroud but now hes T3 lol that kinda hurts.
O'vesa comes with two shielded missile drones so he can join a unit of 3 stealth suits or a unite of 3 crisis suits and they will have t6. Just don't let your drones die first and you are golden. But really I would never match the riptide up with a 18'' gun. Crisis suits with missile pods is another story as they pair up with the drones well and O'vesa makes an amazing shield for the suits.
@BlueRift
That works when tau plays gunline, but in a list like this the riptides will probably not be close enough for a multi-assault.
Oh damn. O'vesa, stealth suit, drones? Or a XV8 suit with irdium armour, more suits and/or drones.
I think Riptide spam lists like the one mentioned earlier are unlikely to stick around for much longer now that Codex: Space Marines is out.
Grav weapons are extremely strong against Riptides, and many players will likely be running White Scars bike armies that have a great number of Grav weapons. As a result, I think Tau armies will be fielding fewer Riptides as a whole. To defeat Bikes, you IMO need to have a solid base of robust Troops. In particular, I believe that bike armies are weak against Fire Warriors, but they'll take down both Riptides and Kroot easily.
BoomWolf wrote: Honestly, half the reason this works is because NOVA missions are a bit silly in the fact you don't even NEED troops to win.
Ehhh.. What? There were 8 missions in the NOVA Open. First one was kill points (Purge the Alien), the rest were objective based. Two of those were The Scouring and Big Guns Never Tire, but that still leaves 5 missions were you either need to take objectives or table your opponent to win.
As for the topic at hand; understanding Tau tactics; it's not that different from any other armies in 40k, and it starts at the army building stage. Don't give up first blood, don't have a vulnerable warlord, make sure you have capabilities for breaking out of your deployment zone, preferably to take linebreaker, and make sure you are able to hold one more objective than your opponent at the end of turn five, and make sure you can keep it for at least one more turn.
Beyond that, have the fire power you need to achieve the following goals: 1) get first blood, 2) take out/nullify threats, 3) take out/nullify scoring units.
So, what do I mean by "take out/nullify"? Let's say I'm facing a Deamon Army with a Screamerstar (4 Heralds of Tzeentch on discs, 10 Screamers; with the 4++ spell from Divination and the Grimoire, these guys have a 2++ with a re-roll. Ouch.). So if I get first turn and they are within line of sight from the Riptides, I shoot them before they get to power up. That would be the taking out part. Nullify is trickier with this particular Tau list, but with Eldar as an example, just assault the Screamerstar with a Wraithknight and they should be stuck there for the rest of the game.
Moving on to the list in the OP, specifically, what it has is a great Deathstar, two mobile threats (the other two Riptides), two outflankers, and scoring units that are numerous (in the amount of units), can hide efficiently, and can provide supporting fire at decent range. And finally the Skyray.
What this list gives you is a great unit to push for midfield, with all the support it needs. In addition, you are forcing your opponent to prioritize between your killer and your scorers. And then, after at least two turns of devastating shooting you come in with two Kroot units in the opponent's deployment zone that can go for linebreaker and/or objectives. Now you're basically forcing your opponent to fight a three-front war with his ever diminishing forces.
Jancoran wrote: Tau are the pinultimate power in the universe for good. That is why they win. The good guys always do.
=)
He has a loto f troops as was said, so that part of the original question is pretty well answered. This army is good because of how mobile it can be. Only an equally mobile force will be able to handle it. Tbhats why i favor deployment option heavy armies. I can't get outmeneuvered and I canalways use the threat of time on my side of things. This list can do similar things: slow dribble scoring units if it needs to and in the meantime limit enemy targets to only those he wants you to fire at initially when your shooting is strongest against him. he's giving you the lowest possible chance of success against him and giving you nothing easy to kill, then he's inserting surgically the firepower he needs to get the jump on you so that any exchanges are on a favorable basis.
Thanks man! Great input.
Since I've just recently (2 weeks ago) started 40k again 6e...I don't really know much about supplements. Where do I get the info on Farsight Enclave? I don't understand how you don't need to take Commander Farsight but still benefit from Crisis Suits as troops. Just declaring you are part of the Farsight Enclave army allows your Crisis Suits to be Troops??
Basically GW has started releasing supplement codices, which as a chapter - approved style addendum to the main codex starting with codex Iyanden for Eldar, then Codex Farsight Enclaves for Tau Empire and most recently Black Legion for Chaos Marines, with the exception of Iyanden, these supplements are first released as digital copies off the iBook and BL website, only to be released as a hard copy some months later (Farsight is this month).
Each supplement has additional standard missions, signature system equivalents that replace those of the standard codex and have one supplement specific trick that makes them unique.
Iyanden has a specific primaris power for the Eldar runes of battle and allows your warlord to be a wraithlord or wraithknight.
Farsight allows crisis suits as troops but requires two taxes to be paid, the first is that anything that can take bonding knives, must take them for the additional cost and your first troops choice must be a 3-man crisis suit unit.
Black Legion allows chosen as troops without Abbaddon, but everything that can takes Veterans of the Long Warmmust take it at the additional cost.
Finally, all supplements are treated as their main codex for purposes of allying AND they are battle brothers with their main codex.
Honestly, half the reason this works is because NOVA missions are a bit silly in the fact you don't even NEED troops to win.
Because this list got "lots of troops" on paper, but in the end its just 20 kroot and 14 marines, not alot by any scratch.
Thats why i am always against tournaments that favor missions without troop requirements. Its what keeps cheesy lists down because they usually dont have many if any troops worth shaking a stick at. Remove the troops they do got and just try and survive, you should win barring bad luck/positioning. Ideally, of course.
Ummmm....have either of you ever played at NOVA or tested out the NOVA missions? They are, and have always been, very troop oriented.
6th edition is witnessing a shift back to MSU, but that doesn't mean players don't need 5-6 units of them. I took 6, and saw most good players doing around the same or more.
Jancoran wrote: Tau are the pinultimate power in the universe for good. That is why they win. The good guys always do.
=)
He has a loto f troops as was said, so that part of the original question is pretty well answered. This army is good because of how mobile it can be. Only an equally mobile force will be able to handle it. Tbhats why i favor deployment option heavy armies. I can't get outmeneuvered and I canalways use the threat of time on my side of things. This list can do similar things: slow dribble scoring units if it needs to and in the meantime limit enemy targets to only those he wants you to fire at initially when your shooting is strongest against him. he's giving you the lowest possible chance of success against him and giving you nothing easy to kill, then he's inserting surgically the firepower he needs to get the jump on you so that any exchanges are on a favorable basis.
Thanks man! Great input.
Since I've just recently (2 weeks ago) started 40k again 6e...I don't really know much about supplements. Where do I get the info on Farsight Enclave? I don't understand how you don't need to take Commander Farsight but still benefit from Crisis Suits as troops. Just declaring you are part of the Farsight Enclave army allows your Crisis Suits to be Troops??
Basically GW has started releasing supplement codices, which as a chapter - approved style addendum to the main codex starting with codex Iyanden for Eldar, then Codex Farsight Enclaves for Tau Empire and most recently Black Legion for Chaos Marines, with the exception of Iyanden, these supplements are first released as digital copies off the iBook and BL website, only to be released as a hard copy some months later (Farsight is this month).
Each supplement has additional standard missions, signature system equivalents that replace those of the standard codex and have one supplement specific trick that makes them unique.
Iyanden has a specific primaris power for the Eldar runes of battle and allows your warlord to be a wraithlord or wraithknight.
Farsight allows crisis suits as troops but requires two taxes to be paid, the first is that anything that can take bonding knives, must take them for the additional cost and your first troops choice must be a 3-man crisis suit unit.
Black Legion allows chosen as troops without Abbaddon, but everything that can takes Veterans of the Long Warmmust take it at the additional cost.
Finally, all supplements are treated as their main codex for purposes of allying AND they are battle brothers with their main codex.
In my opinion they should have just stuck to the regular codex's. all these special rules and abilities have made it so that you either have the supplement and are competitive or you don't and you aren't. The tau are nothing without that supplement. The eldar are still decently powerful thanks to their wave serpents but making 5 man squads of wraithguard/wraithblades as scoring troops took it too far. You dont even have to take 10 anymore like you used to...
In my opinion they should have just stuck to the regular codex's. all these special rules and abilities have made it so that you either have the supplement and are competitive or you don't and you aren't. The tau are nothing without that supplement. The eldar are still decently powerful thanks to their wave serpents but making 5 man squads of wraithguard/wraithblades as scoring troops took it too far. You dont even have to take 10 anymore like you used to...
I just....no....
Tau are fine on their own. Taking the Farsight supplement has a number of issues. First, you have to take a 3-count Crisis team. While this isn't awful, it isn't that good, especially in a points tight army. Second, you lose out on the Tau Commander with Codex Tau signature systems. That model may be the best single character in the game. In order to get one, you must ally Tau with Tau, which cuts off some other awesome combinations (SM, Eldar, pure Tau). Basically, players should not and will not default to the Farsight supplement. It is good insofar as you can make the Justin Cook NOVA type build. Otherwise, codex Tau is better.
The Iyanden supplement is solid, but it isn't essential. I use it to make a Wraithknight a warlord, which is solid--not absurd. The Primaris power swap is list dependent, and the wargear options are solid at best. You can take scoring Wraithguard/blades in default codex Eldar by taking a Spiritseer, so it seems you are confused. The Iyandern supplement is certainly not an auto use.
Finally, the Black Legion opens up a few possibilities. It is nice to be able to take 2 Drakes and 2 Spawn, or a 3/1 combination. Otherwise, not really much there aside from some wargear. It doesn't solve the MEQ troops are bad problem either. Again, not an auto-take.
Overall, I'm not sure where you are getting your information from. Supplements are decent, as they add options. They aren't all that game-breaking though. The 4 Riptide list is the worst thing to come out of them, and I believe it did so well at NOVA because it was relatively unexpected. Grav should help even it out a bit. The only real downside to supplements is shelling out the extra $
The list you posted is similar to the one that won Nova, not Alex who came seperate. While I agree the winning Tau list with O'vesa is powerful it isn't the best Tau list out there. Taking so many Riptides doesn't work because sometimes having so many against certain lists can be crippling (I've experienced it). I'd take two at most, that way you can fit other things into your list that will compliment other units.
You usually see Kroot in competitive lists because they are the cheapest troop choice, they can infiltrate and outflank. I usually take a single Fire Warrior squad to mix things up a little though.
I'm currently running a Tau/Tau(Farsight) list based on Alex's (2nd at Nova) list.
Tau Buff Commander
Riptide
Fire Warriors
Kroot
Kroot - Hound
Kroot - Hound
Pathfinders
Broadsides - Missile Drones
Sky Ray
Sky Ray
In my opinion they should have just stuck to the regular codex's. all these special rules and abilities have made it so that you either have the supplement and are competitive or you don't and you aren't. The tau are nothing without that supplement. The eldar are still decently powerful thanks to their wave serpents but making 5 man squads of wraithguard/wraithblades as scoring troops took it too far. You dont even have to take 10 anymore like you used to...
I just....no....
Tau are fine on their own. Taking the Farsight supplement has a number of issues. First, you have to take a 3-count Crisis team. While this isn't awful, it isn't that good, especially in a points tight army. Second, you lose out on the Tau Commander with Codex Tau signature systems. That model may be the best single character in the game. In order to get one, you must ally Tau with Tau, which cuts off some other awesome combinations (SM, Eldar, pure Tau). Basically, players should not and will not default to the Farsight supplement. It is good insofar as you can make the Justin Cook NOVA type build. Otherwise, codex Tau is better.
The issue is that if you run a 3 crisis suits and a second HQ, such as an ethereal or a drone controller commander there is zero reason not to take the farsight suplement. For 3 extra points you get scoring crisis suits and access to new signature systems, one extra heavy and elite slot (both of which can be tight for a tau player) and more crisis suit troops. Honestly you are hard pressed to find reasons not to run farsight. My reason is 1) the supplement cost too much 2) I already win enough as it is (I only play friendly games). If I were to go to a tournament I would 100% run far-sight allies, not doing so is just stupid.
Tau has the utmost underpriced "signature systems" and support systems. They really are extreme power multipliers. For a tiny amount of points I can give any XV8 (i wrote broadside by accident) hit and run or interceptor.
i wouldnt say the tau are nothing without that supplement. i dont even have the supplement yet because the hard copy doesnt exist yet and i am NOT buying an ipad just for a codex. I play just fine.
I would prefer to ally in other races so i can get some variety going on anyway.
I remember reading that one poster here won "Killadelphia" with a pure tau list. Used two ethereals too. No Allied detachment either, for what it's worth.
Is it required to have Farsight as BB? EH, i don't think so. I'd also like to see more clarifications on the "Divergent Destiny" rules and "Signature System" rules that farsight brings with it. I actually sent in a FAQ question.
Gee Mr. Games-Workshop. It'd be swell if you included that in a FAQ update soon.
The issue is that if you run a 3 crisis suits and a second HQ, such as an ethereal or a drone controller commander there is zero reason not to take the farsight suplement. For 3 extra points you get scoring crisis suits and access to new signature systems, one extra heavy and elite slot (both of which can be tight for a tau player) and more crisis suit troops. Honestly you are hard pressed to find reasons not to run farsight. My reason is 1) the supplement cost too much 2) I already win enough as it is (I only play friendly games). If I were to go to a tournament I would 100% run far-sight allies, not doing so is just stupid.
In order to access these additional slots, a player has to buy an extra HQ choice (again, the really indispensable HQ is the Codex: Tau Commander). Therefore, the Farsight HQ can often be a tax. Additionally, to get O'vesa (the Riptide HQ), one has to take O'Shova (who isn't all that great). Crisis suits aren't all that awesome either. A solo suit or two is a decent option, but there aren't necessary for a competitive list. The 3-count mandatory team is a bit of a tax. Most competitive Tau lists don't take Crisis suits for a reason. They aren't bad, but they aren't as efficient as Broadsides, Riptides, Skyrays, ect.
Additionally, you seem to ignore the idea of opportunity cost. A player can only ally once. Allying with Codex Farsight means no Eldar, Space Marines, Chaos, Necrons, or Space Wolves--all nice choices. I'd argue the simple addition of Tigirus and a Scout squad or a BikeSeer and 3x Jetbikes are better options for most Tau lists. Your assertion that a player who doesn't run Farsight allies with Tau is stupid is extremely misguided. Again, they are far from mandatory in competitive games.
The issue is that if you run a 3 crisis suits and a second HQ, such as an ethereal or a drone controller commander there is zero reason not to take the farsight suplement. For 3 extra points you get scoring crisis suits and access to new signature systems, one extra heavy and elite slot (both of which can be tight for a tau player) and more crisis suit troops. Honestly you are hard pressed to find reasons not to run farsight. My reason is 1) the supplement cost too much 2) I already win enough as it is (I only play friendly games). If I were to go to a tournament I would 100% run far-sight allies, not doing so is just stupid.
In order to access these additional slots, a player has to buy an extra HQ choice (again, the really indispensable HQ is the Codex: Tau Commander). Therefore, the Farsight HQ can often be a tax. Additionally, to get O'vesa (the Riptide HQ), one has to take O'Shova (who isn't all that great). Crisis suits aren't all that awesome either. A solo suit or two is a decent option, but there aren't necessary for a competitive list. The 3-count mandatory team is a bit of a tax. Most competitive Tau lists don't take Crisis suits for a reason. They aren't bad, but they aren't as efficient as Broadsides, Riptides, Skyrays, ect.
Additionally, you seem to ignore the idea of opportunity cost. A player can only ally once. Allying with Codex Farsight means no Eldar, Space Marines, Chaos, Necrons, or Space Wolves--all nice choices. I'd argue the simple addition of Tigirus and a Scout squad or a BikeSeer and 3x Jetbikes are better options for most Tau lists. Your assertion that a player who doesn't run Farsight allies with Tau is stupid is extremely misguided. Again, they are far from mandatory in competitive games.
If you run it right the 3 man suit isn't a tax at all. One of my friends runs his 3 man team with double fusion blasters and target locks to great effect. i've played against that unit many times and seen others players go up against it and it is almost always clutch. The "taxes" are completely worth paying for and more often than not, the end up pay for themselves many times over with the amount of intangibles and force multipliers they bring to bear.
And yes as mentioned earlier, tau by far have the most undercosted force multipliers of any codex. Most compare to the eldar powers of old (guide, doom, fortune) that could be bought and not rolled for. Now to get anything like the tau have access to (ignore cover, twin linked, tank/monster hunter) one must pay for psykers with ml2 AT LEAST and then just hope to get lucky and roll the power you want. Tau get to pick and choose, never roll for tests, and can never be denied the buffs that were payed for.
Granted, SM got chapter tactics and some of them are awesome, just none so offensively devastating as what Tau has access to. Grav guns are awesome as well, but due to the nature of their rules, can be fickle in a TAC list. Moreover, when a Tau player sees an army full of grav toting bikes on the table, there's a good chance his riptides are going to be sporting 3+ invulns. Hard to really mow through that.
Eh, just my two bits. Guess I'm bitter about having to play tau all time. Just not really a fan of the new meta Riptides have ushered in.
Farsight Enclave is far from auto-take. Relying on Tau alone can bring some issues. For example, you have to rely on markerlights to boost your BS, Pathfinders aren't that great as opposing Tau/Eldar can wipe them out with ease. Sky Rays eat up Heavy Slots. You can take a bunch in your Broadside squad, but that will only light up one squad and you'll probably then need target locks as to not kill the squad you just markered. I've noticed that without buffs the shooting of the Riptides really suffers. Codex Eldar give you access to two twin-linked units. It also provides you with durable, counterattack in the form of the WK and opens up the ability to take a couple of Serpents. Warp Spiders and Swooping Hawks are also quite good and add some mobility to Tau (also decent Scouring scoring). Tau+Farsight also doesn't have a good answer for either the Seer Council or Screamer Council deathstar. Eldar and SM can offer a decent shot at rolling up Misfortune. Tigirius is especially useful in that regard. SM can also give access to Pods, Centurions, TFC, Bikes, etc. Once again adding a different element to the Tau list.
I do like some of the combos and I think Justin Cook's list is pretty awesome. But in most cases I think Eldar or SM offer better choices as allies and better fill in some of the holes.
Just not really a fan of the new meta Riptides have ushered in.
TBH its not the meta that riptides ALONE have ushered in, and they rarely make back their points without much dedicated assistance, but there is nothing in the game more broken than the fasight/shadowsun bomb. Add tigurius and an iridium bodyguard for rerolable 2+/3++ shenanigans(and misfortune). thats the list I'm transitioning to, mostly because I like the models, but also because I am to weak of will not to hop on the bandwagon.
Just not really a fan of the new meta Riptides have ushered in.
TBH its not the meta that riptides ALONE have ushered in, and they rarely make back their points without much dedicated assistance, but there is nothing in the game more broken than the fasight/shadowsun bomb. Add tigurius and an iridium bodyguard for rerolable 2+/3++ shenanigans(and misfortune). thats the list I'm transitioning to, mostly because I like the models, but also because I am to weak of will not to hop on the bandwagon.
tiggy is a psyker. rerolls his powers on divination and ml3. Soz if i wasn't being clear.
Oh yes, and now, cording to faq, xv8's may take 3 weapons, and dont have to twinlink. basicaly, I may deign to throw out 4 twinlinked plasma shots per suit, and have interceptor. plus other brutal shennanigans that can be looked at by leafing through the codex. Also I find puretide engram CC node, and all the other power multipliers piled onto one suit in you "bomb" will simply make you able to reroll everything. like everything. Also target lock can give you split fire, which is epic. vehicle to the left, TEQ to the right. all of them are dead.
also give the fnp buff to the iridium guy. he is t5 with 2+/5+fnp. nothing less than a demolisher shell people. and with JSJ good luck with that.
AnonAmbientLight wrote: I remember reading that one poster here won "Killadelphia" with a pure tau list. Used two ethereals too. No Allied detachment either, for what it's worth.
Is it required to have Farsight as BB? EH, i don't think so. I'd also like to see more clarifications on the "Divergent Destiny" rules and "Signature System" rules that farsight brings with it. I actually sent in a FAQ question.
Gee Mr. Games-Workshop. It'd be swell if you included that in a FAQ update soon.
Might you have the list that he used?
Also, can anyone explain Missile Drones? I don't understand their use and I see them in a lot of lists allied to Broadsides and stuff..
Xerics wrote: In my opinion they should have just stuck to the regular codex's. all these special rules and abilities have made it so that you either have the supplement and are competitive or you don't and you aren't. The tau are nothing without that supplement. The eldar are still decently powerful thanks to their wave serpents but making 5 man squads of wraithguard/wraithblades as scoring troops took it too far. You dont even have to take 10 anymore like you used to...
I can't agree. Tau are fine on their own. "nothing without that supplement" may go down in history as the largest overstatement ever typed.
I'm not trying to get on you about it, but come now: can't we discuss it without reaching for a big old box of Hyperbole?
On the squad size thing: I use full squads in my sisters lists even though its seen as suboptimal. I let the scoreboard decide whether Im right or wrong to do it. I'd do the same to Wraithguards because i know that once in the heart of the enemy, to give you must be able to take it.
AnonAmbientLight wrote: I remember reading that one poster here won "Killadelphia" with a pure tau list. Used two ethereals too. No Allied detachment either, for what it's worth.
Is it required to have Farsight as BB? EH, i don't think so. I'd also like to see more clarifications on the "Divergent Destiny" rules and "Signature System" rules that farsight brings with it. I actually sent in a FAQ question.
Gee Mr. Games-Workshop. It'd be swell if you included that in a FAQ update soon.
Might you have the list that he used?
Also, can anyone explain Missile Drones? I don't understand their use and I see them in a lot of lists allied to Broadsides and stuff..
They have guns.
A squad of 3 Broadsides with HYMP and SMS has a lot of fire power. Add in six missile drones and some markerlight support, it goes from 'a lot of fire power' to ridiculous fire power.
The issue is that if you run a 3 crisis suits and a second HQ, such as an ethereal or a drone controller commander there is zero reason not to take the farsight suplement. For 3 extra points you get scoring crisis suits and access to new signature systems, one extra heavy and elite slot (both of which can be tight for a tau player) and more crisis suit troops. Honestly you are hard pressed to find reasons not to run farsight. My reason is 1) the supplement cost too much 2) I already win enough as it is (I only play friendly games). If I were to go to a tournament I would 100% run far-sight allies, not doing so is just stupid.
In order to access these additional slots, a player has to buy an extra HQ choice (again, the really indispensable HQ is the Codex: Tau Commander). Therefore, the Farsight HQ can often be a tax. Additionally, to get O'vesa (the Riptide HQ), one has to take O'Shova (who isn't all that great). Crisis suits aren't all that awesome either. A solo suit or two is a decent option, but there aren't necessary for a competitive list. The 3-count mandatory team is a bit of a tax. Most competitive Tau lists don't take Crisis suits for a reason. They aren't bad, but they aren't as efficient as Broadsides, Riptides, Skyrays, ect.
Additionally, you seem to ignore the idea of opportunity cost. A player can only ally once. Allying with Codex Farsight means no Eldar, Space Marines, Chaos, Necrons, or Space Wolves--all nice choices. I'd argue the simple addition of Tigirus and a Scout squad or a BikeSeer and 3x Jetbikes are better options for most Tau lists. Your assertion that a player who doesn't run Farsight allies with Tau is stupid is extremely misguided. Again, they are far from mandatory in competitive games.
I think you missed my first sentence, it assumes you are already running the second HQ and crisis suits. If you meet this criteria you can get scoring crisis suits for 3 points, without changing your list. That is what I am saying it is stupid not to do, because 3 points to change elites to troops is insane. Adding any other ally you need to significantly change your list and play style. Adding farsight when you are already running the models is a no brainer. And I can't tell you how many lists I see that meet this criteria, and therefor should be allying with farsight. Also your comparison of crisis troops to broadsides, riptides, skyrays, ect is inaccurate because with farsight you are comparing crisis suits to firewarriors and kroot, nothing else.
I am not saying farsight is the best ally for tau, though tournament results might indicate that. I am saying you have to significantly change your list and the way you play to incorporate any other ally that farsight. Moreover, the idea of opportunity cost is moot when we already established the player would be playing pure tau if they were not playing tau/farsight.
syypher wrote: Also, can anyone explain Missile Drones? I don't understand their use and I see them in a lot of lists allied to Broadsides and stuff..
It's slightly over 10 points for 2 S7AP4 shots at 36" range, what can't you love about that? They are that cheap because GW thought it was okay to give them this fire power as long as they kept their BS low.
Guess what; Low BS has never been a problem for Tau.
Kingsley wrote: I think Riptide spam lists like the one mentioned earlier are unlikely to stick around for much longer now that Codex: Space Marines is out.
Grav weapons are extremely strong against Riptides, and many players will likely be running White Scars bike armies that have a great number of Grav weapons. As a result, I think Tau armies will be fielding fewer Riptides as a whole. To defeat Bikes, you IMO need to have a solid base of robust Troops. In particular, I believe that bike armies are weak against Fire Warriors, but they'll take down both Riptides and Kroot easily.
I think that also depends on how the FAQ is going to work.
If Grav works with a 'majority save' than Riptides will simply take their 4+/4++ drones and laugh at your Grav.
I think you missed my first sentence, it assumes you are already running the second HQ and crisis suits. If you meet this criteria you can get scoring crisis suits for 3 points, without changing your list. That is what I am saying it is stupid not to do, because 3 points to change elites to troops is insane. Adding any other ally you need to significantly change your list and play style. Adding farsight when you are already running the models is a no brainer. And I can't tell you how many lists I see that meet this criteria, and therefor should be allying with farsight. Also your comparison of crisis troops to broadsides, riptides, skyrays, ect is inaccurate because with farsight you are comparing crisis suits to firewarriors and kroot, nothing else.
I still think your assertion is debatable. I don't see many competitive Tau lists that do take Crisis Suits. Tau are points tight. They are a great army, but by the time a player fits in a Commander, Broadsides, Skyrays, Riptides, and some troops, there aren't a ton of points left.
And yes, you do have to compare taking Crisis Suits to all the options in the codex, as you have limited points. If a player spends 156 points on three suits with 2x missile pod, that is 156 points that can't be used elsewhere. If we do play your game and compare those points directly to other troops, a Tau player can get 26 Kroot for the same price. This doesn't even include the mandatory second HQ.
I am not saying farsight is the best ally for tau, though tournament results might indicate that. I am saying you have to significantly change your list and the way you play to incorporate any other ally that farsight. Moreover, the idea of opportunity cost is moot when we already established the player would be playing pure tau if they were not playing tau/farsight.
I can speak from experience and tell you that tourney results do not indicate that.
You are wrong in stating that a player has to significantly change their list to take other allies. I frequently see Tau with a Bikeseer and 3x Guardian Jetbikes. 166 points of allies is less radical than taking the units that are required to make Farsight allies worthwhile. Tigirus and 5x Scouts is 220, and the is the same way.
Finally, there was never a time in which this thread was somehow limited to pure Tau. This is a thread about competitive Tau. Hence, we have to discuss the commonly seen (and potent) ally combinations out there.
syypher wrote: Also, can anyone explain Missile Drones? I don't understand their use and I see them in a lot of lists allied to Broadsides and stuff..
It's slightly over 10 points for 2 S7AP4 shots at 36" range, what can't you love about that? They are that cheap because GW thought it was okay to give them this fire power as long as they kept their BS low.
Guess what; Low BS has never been a problem for Tau.
Kingsley wrote: I think Riptide spam lists like the one mentioned earlier are unlikely to stick around for much longer now that Codex: Space Marines is out.
Grav weapons are extremely strong against Riptides, and many players will likely be running White Scars bike armies that have a great number of Grav weapons. As a result, I think Tau armies will be fielding fewer Riptides as a whole. To defeat Bikes, you IMO need to have a solid base of robust Troops. In particular, I believe that bike armies are weak against Fire Warriors, but they'll take down both Riptides and Kroot easily.
I think that also depends on how the FAQ is going to work.
If Grav works with a 'majority save' than Riptides will simply take their 4+/4++ drones and laugh at your Grav.
And your enemies will laugh when popping a drone causes your Riptide to run off the board.
syypher wrote: Also, can anyone explain Missile Drones? I don't understand their use and I see them in a lot of lists allied to Broadsides and stuff..
It's slightly over 10 points for 2 S7AP4 shots at 36" range, what can't you love about that? They are that cheap because GW thought it was okay to give them this fire power as long as they kept their BS low.
Guess what; Low BS has never been a problem for Tau.
Kingsley wrote: I think Riptide spam lists like the one mentioned earlier are unlikely to stick around for much longer now that Codex: Space Marines is out.
Grav weapons are extremely strong against Riptides, and many players will likely be running White Scars bike armies that have a great number of Grav weapons. As a result, I think Tau armies will be fielding fewer Riptides as a whole. To defeat Bikes, you IMO need to have a solid base of robust Troops. In particular, I believe that bike armies are weak against Fire Warriors, but they'll take down both Riptides and Kroot easily.
I think that also depends on how the FAQ is going to work.
If Grav works with a 'majority save' than Riptides will simply take their 4+/4++ drones and laugh at your Grav.
And your enemies will laugh when popping a drone causes your Riptide to run off the board.
This is exactly why I have a hard time seeing them as "good" but so many people take them. I guess they just keep them slightly behind the riptide or broadsides so they don't take the hits first...I don't think the risk is worth it IMHO but I'm new to Tau and don't have any experience to back that up.
Also, they are BS2... I still don't get why they are worth it lol
Twin linked (in some scenarios), riduiculousely under costed, and free wounds. OH YEAH, and they give 4++. And they are still T6, which is fething amazing. And the 104 can get drone controller and bump up their BS.
syypher wrote: Also, can anyone explain Missile Drones? I don't understand their use and I see them in a lot of lists allied to Broadsides and stuff..
It's slightly over 10 points for 2 S7AP4 shots at 36" range, what can't you love about that? They are that cheap because GW thought it was okay to give them this fire power as long as they kept their BS low.
Guess what; Low BS has never been a problem for Tau.
Kingsley wrote: I think Riptide spam lists like the one mentioned earlier are unlikely to stick around for much longer now that Codex: Space Marines is out.
Grav weapons are extremely strong against Riptides, and many players will likely be running White Scars bike armies that have a great number of Grav weapons. As a result, I think Tau armies will be fielding fewer Riptides as a whole. To defeat Bikes, you IMO need to have a solid base of robust Troops. In particular, I believe that bike armies are weak against Fire Warriors, but they'll take down both Riptides and Kroot easily.
I think that also depends on how the FAQ is going to work.
If Grav works with a 'majority save' than Riptides will simply take their 4+/4++ drones and laugh at your Grav.
And your enemies will laugh when popping a drone causes your Riptide to run off the board.
What I would expect is to see a farseer with the Riptide... a -/++4 and all those nasty gav guns are wounding on +6s....
Also, they are BS2... I still don't get why they are worth it lol
Because for 72 points you can have 12 S7 shots it doesn't matter that they are BS2 markerlights will make them BS4 or 5. That amount of firepower is amazing.
Hmm.. okay I got it. Quantity over Quality and you can make them even better with the Marker Lights. Cool! Thanks guys!
Speaking of Marker lights. How do you normally distribute those out? I'm guessing Pathfinders? If so how do you normally take your Pathfinders? Min squads? Squads of 5 or 10?
LValx wrote: Farsight Enclave is far from auto-take. Relying on Tau alone can bring some issues. For example, you have to rely on markerlights to boost your BS, Pathfinders aren't that great as opposing Tau/Eldar can wipe them out with ease. Sky Rays eat up Heavy Slots. You can take a bunch in your Broadside squad, but that will only light up one squad and you'll probably then need target locks as to not kill the squad you just markered.
I do like some of the combos and I think Justin Cook's list is pretty awesome. But in most cases I think Eldar or SM offer better choices as allies and better fill in some of the holes.
He got 2nd place only using the Skray markerlights. There were no pathfinders, drones, tetras, or bombers in his list.
AnonAmbientLight wrote: I remember reading that one poster here won "Killadelphia" with a pure tau list. Used two ethereals too. No Allied detachment either, for what it's worth.
Is it required to have Farsight as BB? EH, i don't think so. I'd also like to see more clarifications on the "Divergent Destiny" rules and "Signature System" rules that farsight brings with it. I actually sent in a FAQ question.
Gee Mr. Games-Workshop. It'd be swell if you included that in a FAQ update soon.
Might you have the list that he used?
Also, can anyone explain Missile Drones? I don't understand their use and I see them in a lot of lists allied to Broadsides and stuff..
I'm not 100% sure. I'll try to find that forum post if I can. His army was something like this.
2 Ethereals
120 Kroot
3 Riptides
3 skyrays
I think he had some devilfish but I don't know. It's bugging me now, I'll have to find it. Lol
Largeblastmarker wrote: Twin linked (in some scenarios), riduiculousely under costed, and free wounds. OH YEAH, and they give 4++. And they are still T6, which is fething amazing. And the 104 can get drone controller and bump up their BS.
the only drones that benefit from a DC are gun drones, marker drones, Sniper drones
@sagangree:
Wouldn't it still roll to wound at a 2+, cause if you go by majority toughness your rolling agianst the Riptides t6, how ever the graviton rule states you roll agianst the targets save which would be the riptide.
Wouldn't it still roll to wound at a 2+, cause if you go by majority toughness your rolling agianst the Riptides t6, how ever the graviton rule states you roll agianst the targets save which would be the riptide.
When equal values exists you use the "better" value. So if you shoot the Riptide w/ farseer with bolters and grav guns, the way I see it, you would wound on 6+ for the bolters (one T6 and one T3 ~ tie goes to T6) and 6+ for the Grav Guns (one 2+ and one - ~ tie goes to the - )
Largeblastmarker wrote: Twin linked (in some scenarios), riduiculousely under costed, and free wounds. OH YEAH, and they give 4++. And they are still T6, which is fething amazing. And the 104 can get drone controller and bump up their BS.
the only drones that benefit from a DC are gun drones, marker drones, Sniper drones
I still think your assertion is debatable. I don't see many competitive Tau lists that do take Crisis Suits. Tau are points tight. They are a great army, but by the time a player fits in a Commander, Broadsides, Skyrays, Riptides, and some troops, there aren't a ton of points left.
And yes, you do have to compare taking Crisis Suits to all the options in the codex, as you have limited points. If a player spends 156 points on three suits with 2x missile pod, that is 156 points that can't be used elsewhere. If we do play your game and compare those points directly to other troops, a Tau player can get 26 Kroot for the same price. This doesn't even include the mandatory second HQ.
Well first off, you don't see many competitive pure tau lists. Most competitive players ally. Now there are a large amount of people who play tau/farsight, all of them have 3 crisis suits. Maybe, like me, they figured out, If I am already taking 3 crisis suits and 2 HQs I should ally with farsight. You say you don't see many lists with crisis suits, I say I do see many lists with crisis suits. So I guess we either need to do an analysis of all the lists out there or just agree to disagree. All I can say is that if, like me, a player is running 2 HQs and 3 crisis suits there is no reason not to take farsight allies.
I can speak from experience and tell you that tourney results do not indicate that.
Except tau/farsight won the nova and got second place. When you look at the average place of tau/tau you get 49, while the average place for tau/eldar is 63. So not only did tau/tau win but they also, as a whole, placed better than tau/eldar. Now this is just the analysis of one tournament but many regard this to be THE tournament that matters. I can not follow every tournament that comes out, only the really large ones. Mind showing me the results of the tournaments that do not indicate tau/farsight is the best ally combination?
You are wrong in stating that a player has to significantly change their list to take other allies. I frequently see Tau with a Bikeseer and 3x Guardian Jetbikes. 166 points of allies is less radical than taking the units that are required to make Farsight allies worthwhile. Tigirus and 5x Scouts is 220, and the is the same way.
Finally, there was never a time in which this thread was somehow limited to pure Tau. This is a thread about competitive Tau. Hence, we have to discuss the commonly seen (and potent) ally combinations out there.
I guess it comes down to what you consider significant. You say points are so tight in tau that 156 is hard to come up with for some crisis suits, so I assume 166 and 220 might be significant. For me, not significant is spending 3 points when I am already running 2 HQs and 3 Crisis suits.
And while this thread is not specifically discussing pure tau, the post in question was. The issue was, is tau/farsight better than pure tau. Even if tau/eldar, tau/sm, tau/anything is better than tau/farsight it doesn't effect if tau/farsight is better than just pure tau.
syypher wrote: How do you normally distribute those out? I'm guessing Pathfinders? If so how do you normally take your Pathfinders? Min squads? Squads of 5 or 10?
I have used pathfinders in two games since the new book hit and that was just to test out using a recon drone equipped devilfish to bring in Kroot on the backfield.
Markerlights are nice thanks to the 36" range, they rarely are out of range of anything. But if you ever intend to actually move them around then you're having to snap fire.
-Funny side note: Compare the Ion rifle and rail rifle with the markerlight bit. The giant cannons are rapid fire and the flashlight attatchment is heavy.
I believe most people now get their buffs from either the buff commander, farseer ally, or markerdrones. I think Pathfinders are still usable, but they aren't flexible as markerdrones.
Personally I take the drone commander with target lock and missiles; doesn't need markers himself for cover or accuracy thanks to BS5 and AP4 and a good range to keep him and the drones in range of their seperate targets.
Drones themselves put out plenty of markerlights and are very mobile along with it while only being marginally more expensive per shot than the pathfinders while having several boosts over them.
Also I'm going to end up trying out the buff commander attached to a Riptide. I've had 4 games now where too many units are close together and I scatter a template onto a unit that didn't get cover removed. Figure it'll give me a better damage output.
Well first off, you don't see many competitive pure tau lists. Most competitive players ally. Now there are a large amount of people who play tau/farsight, all of them have 3 crisis suits. Maybe, like me, they figured out, If I am already taking 3 crisis suits and 2 HQs I should ally with farsight. You say you don't see many lists with crisis suits, I say I do see many lists with crisis suits. So I guess we either need to do an analysis of all the lists out there or just agree to disagree. All I can say is that if, like me, a player is running 2 HQs and 3 crisis suits there is no reason not to take farsight allies.
I'm not so sure about this claim. There were plenty of pure Tau at Nova. As for your assertion, again, you still lose something by allying Tau with Tau--even in your situation. You lose the opportunity to ally with something else. Hence, there is a reason.
Except tau/farsight won the nova and got second place. When you look at the average place of tau/tau you get 49, while the average place for tau/eldar is 63. So not only did tau/tau win but they also, as a whole, placed better than tau/eldar. Now this is just the analysis of one tournament but many regard this to be THE tournament that matters. I can not follow every tournament that comes out, only the really large ones. Mind showing me the results of the tournaments that do not indicate tau/farsight is the best ally combination?
Yup...I was there. It is a bit misleading to just go by average placing. Taking the mean doesn't account for outliers. The mode would give us a better idea of placing. Still, there are good and bad players who skew just about everything.
Also, if we want to get down to it, Eldau and Taudar both had better win percentages than Tau/Tau at Nova.
I guess it comes down to what you consider significant. You say points are so tight in tau that 156 is hard to come up with for some crisis suits, so I assume 166 and 220 might be significant. For me, not significant is spending 3 points when I am already running 2 HQs and 3 Crisis suits.
It is significant in that you get more from adding a fast moving troop choice and a battle brother psyker than another HQ and 3 suits that are, in many ways, redundant.
And while this thread is not specifically discussing pure tau, the post in question was. The issue was, is tau/farsight better than pure tau. Even if tau/eldar, tau/sm, tau/anything is better than tau/farsight it doesn't effect if tau/farsight is better than just pure tau.
This is the heart of the disagreement. I don't think that Tau/Farsight is automatically better than pure Tau. If we are still using Nova as the example here, pure Tau had the 6th highest win percentage, which is not far off from the top 5 combinations. Also, I didn't see many Tau/Farsight, save a few players (who as you have heard, did well with a certain build). I have nothing but respect for Justin Cook's win, he is a nice guy and a great player. However, time will tell whether or not the Quad-Tide list is anything more than a short-lived meta buster.
I personally don't see the need for Crisis Suits. There are plenty of efficient pure Tau builds. There are also some combinations of Tau+Eldar and Tau+SM that I believe are better than Tau+Farsight. Unless you are building the Quad-tide or some kind of Farsight bomb with O'vesa, there isn't much that Tau+Farsight actually adds. Players are better served with the classic Bikeseer+3 GJB for less points.
LValx wrote: Farsight Enclave is far from auto-take. Relying on Tau alone can bring some issues. For example, you have to rely on markerlights to boost your BS, Pathfinders aren't that great as opposing Tau/Eldar can wipe them out with ease. Sky Rays eat up Heavy Slots. You can take a bunch in your Broadside squad, but that will only light up one squad and you'll probably then need target locks as to not kill the squad you just markered.
I do like some of the combos and I think Justin Cook's list is pretty awesome. But in most cases I think Eldar or SM offer better choices as allies and better fill in some of the holes.
He got 2nd place only using the Skray markerlights. There were no pathfinders, drones, tetras, or bombers in his list.
His list had most of the shooting consolidated into one unit. Watch his games, those other Riptides didn't end up doing that much damage. BS3 on a ~200 Pt model isn't great. If you aren't running a deathstar (O'vesa, Farsight bomb), you'll probably need to dedicate a fair bit of points to buffing your averagely accurate units.
syypher wrote: Hmm.. okay I got it. Quantity over Quality and you can make them even better with the Marker Lights. Cool! Thanks guys!
Speaking of Marker lights. How do you normally distribute those out? I'm guessing Pathfinders? If so how do you normally take your Pathfinders? Min squads? Squads of 5 or 10?
I take a Markerdrone unit for one set of Markerlights. the second set comes from a set of three Firesight Marksman. I have two Pathfinder units, but they are not used for Markerlights.
syypher wrote: Hmm.. okay I got it. Quantity over Quality and you can make them even better with the Marker Lights. Cool! Thanks guys!
Speaking of Marker lights. How do you normally distribute those out? I'm guessing Pathfinders? If so how do you normally take your Pathfinders? Min squads? Squads of 5 or 10?
I take a Markerdrone unit for one set of Markerlights. the second set comes from a set of three Firesight Marksman. I have two Pathfinder units, but they are not used for Markerlights.
Interesting stuff guys! All the articles I've been reading were released when the Tau codex came out and everyone was raving about Pathfinder usage with Marker Lights. I guess that's changed over the past couple months
I'm thinking of using a Skyray so once it's unloaded I'll still have those 2 Markerlights and maybe a MarkerDrone unit. Sounds legit~
What is the optimal loadout of a Crisis suit? The wargear says I can take up to 3 weapons but I don't know if that's worth the point investment on a marine statline model... Are they worth their points? T4 3+ save... and with 2x Missile Pods, they are 57pts each. Is that even worth it anymore? Or do most people keep them with just 1x Missile Pod? Or am I equipping them less than optimal.
Yes, yes, and yes. crisis suits are the new soladins of this edition. they can automatically fire at two targets, and get support systems to boot. and you can get individual weapons on them now (no need for twinlinking) and have them mc/tank/infantry hunt on the very cheap. just remember to deapstrike em as hoverring them from backfield, they will probably die. I'll pm you my crisis suit heavy list to show you what i like to do with my crisis suits.
Largeblastmarker wrote: Yes, yes, and yes. crisis suits are the new soladins of this edition. they can automatically fire at two targets, and get support systems to boot. and you can get individual weapons on them now (no need for twinlinking) and have them mc/tank/infantry hunt on the very cheap. just remember to deapstrike em as hoverring them from backfield, they will probably die. I'll pm you my crisis suit heavy list to show you what i like to do with my crisis suits.
That would be awesome.
About the RipTide...okay I know he's awesome and he's got sweet AP2 shots and large blasts or barrage etc. as well as a durable body with 2+ 5++ and possible FNP. However just looking at him the way he is and actually kitted out he usually comes up to 210 or more points! Can anyone explain to me why he's so coveted as our new awesome spam this guy model. Lists all over have 3 or 4 of this guy. I'm assuming it's more because of the versatility + durability than anything... because I know for the same amount of points I can have a Crisis Squad that is not as durable but fires A LOT more shots... Not to mention even more expensive once you start adding the usual additions like the Commander HQ or the Farseer.
Also, I'm still looking for advice on how most people equip their Crisis suits I'm thinking of Missile Pods but do you normally take 1 to keep them cheap because of their "fragile" bodies, or 2 missile pods? On my army builder it shows Missile Pods as TL as well... yet in the ranged section of my Tau book I don't see them as TL. What's up with that? Army builder is wrong?
210pts is the max out load. Hes 190 for me. Ion Accelerator and Interceptor is all you need. That second support slot is really just a point dump, since precision shots dont affect blasts and he cant take retro thrusters. only other choices are expensive and unneeded.
Hes coveted because its reliable S8 AP2 pi plate. Its not as deadly as a crisis team but unlike a crisis team it will be around the whole game unless you get unlucky as hell.
Vineheart01 wrote: 210pts is the max out load. Hes 190 for me. Ion Accelerator and Interceptor is all you need. That second support slot is really just a point dump, since precision shots dont affect blasts and he cant take retro thrusters. only other choices are expensive and unneeded.
Hes coveted because its reliable S8 AP2 pi plate. Its not as deadly as a crisis team but unlike a crisis team it will be around the whole game unless you get unlucky as hell.
Hmm... really? I usually see the Skyfire as a big deal. Maybe because I only run 1... I have another coming in so maybe after having 2x with their insane range and Intercepter I will not need the Skyfire as badly...
Do you guys suggest making my 2nd RipTide Ion Accelerator + SMS as well for consistency and redundancy? Or do you all equip the RipTides differently?
Crisis Suits at 1 or 2 Missile Pods? I kind of have a decent grasp now with your guys help with the rest of the models. But The Crisis Suit squads still are a little confusing to me lol Not sure how much firepower I should really be investing into marine like bodies...
I bring my Riptides (all three of them) with Ion Accelerator, Twin-Linked Fusion Blaster, Stim Injector and EWO. Comes at 225 point and it has never failed me yet. FNP is super-important IMHO because it is a 33% survivability boost against most of the stuff that can hurt your Riptides (the only exception being Jaws).
Taken in that order, I don't bring the third until 1850. I'm also allying Tau to my Farsight Enclave to bring a very expensive Tau Buffmaster(Iridium, Stim, Shield Generator, Cyclic Ion Blaster, MSS, PEN, C&CN, Onager, and NSJ) who joins one of the HBC Riptides, possible the IA depending on targets and if an Ignore Cover Twinlinked S8/AP Large blast will deal more damage.
Those four models compliment my MSU Suit/Fire Warrior Army. It was a difficult and very recent decision to stop allying Eldar to bring the Buffmaster, by no means an auto include. I was allying in a Spiritseer, Wraithguard, and Wraithknight and keeping the SS and WG behind and ADL with Icarus. I was having difficulty killing Wave Serpents and I had to lose the melee threat of the Wriathknight, its ranged S10 and a 2+ cover T6 scoring unit to do bring my allied Tau. Certainly not an easy decision.
I take a Markerdrone unit for one set of Markerlights. the second set comes from a set of three Firesight Marksman. I have two Pathfinder units, but they are not used for Markerlights.
Interesting stuff guys! All the articles I've been reading were released when the Tau codex came out and everyone was raving about Pathfinder usage with Marker Lights. I guess that's changed over the past couple months
I'm thinking of using a Skyray so once it's unloaded I'll still have those 2 Markerlights and maybe a MarkerDrone unit. Sounds legit~
What is the optimal loadout of a Crisis suit? The wargear says I can take up to 3 weapons but I don't know if that's worth the point investment on a marine statline model... Are they worth their points? T4 3+ save... and with 2x Missile Pods, they are 57pts each. Is that even worth it anymore? Or do most people keep them with just 1x Missile Pod? Or am I equipping them less than optimal.
Most people seem to be moving away from pathfinders because they are so easy to kill and not mobile. Marker drones with a commander, often in a crisis suit team, are bs5 t4 sv4+ sometimes hiding behind sv2+ commanders. The marker drones are mobile and can jsj. They only cost 1 or 3 points more than pathfinders depending on how you by them. They seem like the best choice for mass reliable markerlights.
Firesight marksmen are rarely brought up but are also great sources of marker lights. They have bs5, markerlights and stealth for only 2 points more than pathfinders. But you must pay a 45pt task to get 3 sniper drones, which isn't horrible, but not amazing either. One trick you can do is get an ethereal with 2 marker drones and join them to the sniper team. Because the firesight marksmen have drone controllers your marker drones are bs5, so now you can get 5 bs5 markerlights out of the unit. Because of majority toughness the unit is t4 instead of t3 and gets a 3+ cover save in ruins, so they are much harder to kill than pathfinders. Sniper drones also pair nicely with an ethereal because they have pulse weapons, so they can fire 3 times at 24''.
Skyrays are very legit. They give out 2 marker light hits 44% of time time, so it is not a reliable way to strip cover but are good at boosting bs by 1 or 2. But the main thing is skyrays make taking down fliers so much easier. One markerlight hit nearly doubles a broadsides accuracy against fliers.
Skyfire on a riptide isnt as big as you think. Unless its the HBC and its super charged, youre not that likely to take a flier out unless you get lucky with double melta pen damage (which should never happen on interceptor...).
Hes only shooting 3 S7 AP2 shots that are not twinlinked. Plus a melta/plasma if in range depending on what you got. I put skyfire on mine solely if i have a random ~80 pts lying around, when i tend to do often enough anyway. 3 S7 AP2 shots are not that likely to take out majority of fliers.
I never put FNP on it because thats 35pts of another reason to not shoot at the riptide when you already dont want to. Literally every time ive taken it ive only used it against my own nova failures. Noone shoots it as it is, why would they with fnp?
About the RipTide...okay I know he's awesome and he's got sweet AP2 shots and large blasts or barrage etc. as well as a durable body with 2+ 5++ and possible FNP. However just looking at him the way he is and actually kitted out he usually comes up to 210 or more points! Can anyone explain to me why he's so coveted as our new awesome spam this guy model. Lists all over have 3 or 4 of this guy. I'm assuming it's more because of the versatility + durability than anything... because I know for the same amount of points I can have a Crisis Squad that is not as durable but fires A LOT more shots... Not to mention even more expensive once you start adding the usual additions like the Commander HQ or the Farseer.
Also, I'm still looking for advice on how most people equip their Crisis suits I'm thinking of Missile Pods but do you normally take 1 to keep them cheap because of their "fragile" bodies, or 2 missile pods? On my army builder it shows Missile Pods as TL as well... yet in the ranged section of my Tau book I don't see them as TL. What's up with that? Army builder is wrong?
In a standard list riptides are just tough and reliable pie plates. When you start to spam riptides you overwhelm your opponent. Imagine sitting down across from someone and all you can fire at is 4 t6 sv2+ 5++ riptides and 2 sv13 skyrays (kroot are outflanking and crisis are deepstriking/hiding). What do you do? How many of your guns are suddenly next to useless? If it is not s7+ you can't hurt the skyrays and if it doesn't have ap2 it is not hurting the riptides (it takes 54 bolter shots to do one wound to a riptide). Even if the riptides are not doing the most damage they are not taking damage either. And chances are the riptide will dish out more damage than they take. All they have to do is kill a few heavy hitting units before your crisis suits and kroot come on and then you can mop up.
Taken in that order, I don't bring the third until 1850. I'm also allying Tau to my Farsight Enclave to bring a very expensive Tau Buffmaster(Iridium, Stim, Shield Generator, Cyclic Ion Blaster, MSS, PEN, C&CN, Onager, and NSJ) who joins one of the HBC Riptides, possible the IA depending on targets and if an Ignore Cover Twinlinked S8/AP Large blast will deal more damage.
Those four models compliment my MSU Suit/Fire Warrior Army. It was a difficult and very recent decision to stop allying Eldar to bring the Buffmaster, by no means an auto include. I was allying in a Spiritseer, Wraithguard, and Wraithknight and keeping the SS and WG behind and ADL with Icarus. I was having difficulty killing Wave Serpents and I had to lose the melee threat of the Wriathknight, its ranged S10 and a 2+ cover T6 scoring unit to do bring my allied Tau. Certainly not an easy decision.
Just a month ago you said that Farsight Riptides were garbage, even with just one. Now you're rolling with two pre-1850 and three after that. You're even dropping your Eldar allies to bring them. I guess our long discussion was not in vain after all!
My only issue is that Riptides may soon get a FAQ that doesn't allow IC to join them. I have called into GW and the Rep said they can be joined by IC so long as they have at least one drone. Still seems kind of weird and something only an FAQ can solve. I also sent in a FAQ about "Divergent Destiny" and the Signature System restriction and how it applies when using Tau Empire: Codex as allies or main detachments.
Really wish they would update their FAQ and put so many Tau questions to rest.
Taken in that order, I don't bring the third until 1850. I'm also allying Tau to my Farsight Enclave to bring a very expensive Tau Buffmaster(Iridium, Stim, Shield Generator, Cyclic Ion Blaster, MSS, PEN, C&CN, Onager, and NSJ) who joins one of the HBC Riptides, possible the IA depending on targets and if an Ignore Cover Twinlinked S8/AP Large blast will deal more damage.
Those four models compliment my MSU Suit/Fire Warrior Army. It was a difficult and very recent decision to stop allying Eldar to bring the Buffmaster, by no means an auto include. I was allying in a Spiritseer, Wraithguard, and Wraithknight and keeping the SS and WG behind and ADL with Icarus. I was having difficulty killing Wave Serpents and I had to lose the melee threat of the Wriathknight, its ranged S10 and a 2+ cover T6 scoring unit to do bring my allied Tau. Certainly not an easy decision.
Just a month ago you said that Farsight Riptides were garbage, even with just one. Now you're rolling with two pre-1850 and three after that. You're even dropping your Eldar allies to bring them. I guess our long discussion was not in vain after all!
My only issue is that Riptides may soon get a FAQ that doesn't allow IC to join them. I have called into GW and the Rep said they can be joined by IC so long as they have at least one drone. Still seems kind of weird and something only an FAQ can solve. I also sent in a FAQ about "Divergent Destiny" and the Signature System restriction and how it applies when using Tau Empire: Codex as allies or main detachments.
Really wish they would update their FAQ and put so many Tau questions to rest.
You again, I see you are continuing to troll the forums.
I never said FE Riptides or Riptides in general were bad. What I argued a month ago was that Riptides are bad at anti AV14. Which they still are. There is a reason I need to DS Target Lock dual FB suits. And the point of that thread was to design a competitive FE list without utilizing Riptides, a concept you failed to recognize. You trolled that thread for days.
As to needing an FAQ, we don't, the rules are explicitly clear. So, unless GW decides to change the rules it will still be legal. Granted, that isn't outside the realm of possibility, but currently the rules are clear.
Number of models has nothing to do with whether or not an IC can join, its number of max units. Solo and only solo MCs and vehicles and a couple other oddball units (Lone Wolf i believe is one) that are always and ONLY a single model, cannot be joined by ICs period. Riptides are a unit composed of 1-3 models, so it does not fall under that category.
If it was model count, then if you went down to 1 model + the IC then the IC would be forced to leave the unit. In cases of a bikerboss + painboy that would suck royal donkeyballs lol.
The only way they could FAQ it to make it so ICs cant join them is to either add a random, stupid rule that specifically states "No IC can be joined to a Riptide unit" - or they change the wording on drones to not count as max unit counts, which would affect morale checks since now its 3 Crisis Suits instead of 3 suits + 6 drones = 9 models.
Taken in that order, I don't bring the third until 1850. I'm also allying Tau to my Farsight Enclave to bring a very expensive Tau Buffmaster(Iridium, Stim, Shield Generator, Cyclic Ion Blaster, MSS, PEN, C&CN, Onager, and NSJ) who joins one of the HBC Riptides, possible the IA depending on targets and if an Ignore Cover Twinlinked S8/AP Large blast will deal more damage.
Those four models compliment my MSU Suit/Fire Warrior Army. It was a difficult and very recent decision to stop allying Eldar to bring the Buffmaster, by no means an auto include. I was allying in a Spiritseer, Wraithguard, and Wraithknight and keeping the SS and WG behind and ADL with Icarus. I was having difficulty killing Wave Serpents and I had to lose the melee threat of the Wriathknight, its ranged S10 and a 2+ cover T6 scoring unit to do bring my allied Tau. Certainly not an easy decision.
Just a month ago you said that Farsight Riptides were garbage, even with just one. Now you're rolling with two pre-1850 and three after that. You're even dropping your Eldar allies to bring them. I guess our long discussion was not in vain after all!
My only issue is that Riptides may soon get a FAQ that doesn't allow IC to join them. I have called into GW and the Rep said they can be joined by IC so long as they have at least one drone. Still seems kind of weird and something only an FAQ can solve. I also sent in a FAQ about "Divergent Destiny" and the Signature System restriction and how it applies when using Tau Empire: Codex as allies or main detachments.
Really wish they would update their FAQ and put so many Tau questions to rest.
You again, I see you are continuing to troll the forums.
I never said FE Riptides or Riptides in general were bad. What I argued a month ago was that Riptides are bad at anti AV14. Which they still are. There is a reason I need to DS Target Lock dual FB suits. And the point of that thread was to design a competitive FE list without utilizing Riptides, a concept you failed to recognize. You trolled that thread for days.
As to needing an FAQ, we don't, the rules are explicitly clear. So, unless GW decides to change the rules it will still be legal. Granted, that isn't outside the realm of possibility, but currently the rules are clear.
I never said it was just good at anti AV14. The original argument was AV14 answer, AND a pie plate that his army did not have. I also mentioned that since he was using FE, he might as well utilize one of the BEST Signature systems that the codex offers, the ECPA. You just stuck to the AV14 thing because...well i have no idea.
The thread asked if his list was viable without using Riptides. So how is it possible that a response warranting its benefits be unwanted? Quizicaldog.jpeg.
The rules are not as clear as they should be, and even the GW rep's info is conflicting this thread's info, which is why i brought it up. That right there is more than enough of a reason for an FAQ to settle it. Which is what i'm trying to say. I don't particularly care either which way it gets settled, just that it does.
To recap the argument. The BRB pg39 says that the IC can join a MC if it does not always consist of one model. The Tau Codex states that all drones are considered squad members for all purposes, meaning that they are NOT wargear. This makes them a multi-model unit and thus an IC can join them. The question is: Does a Riptide need a drone in order to take an IC?
Number of models has nothing to do with whether or not an IC can join, its number of max units. Solo and only solo MCs and vehicles and a couple other oddball units (Lone Wolf i believe is one) that are always and ONLY a single model, cannot be joined by ICs period. Riptides are a unit composed of 1-3 models, so it does not fall under that category.
If it was model count, then if you went down to 1 model + the IC then the IC would be forced to leave the unit. In cases of a bikerboss + painboy that would suck royal donkeyballs lol.
The only way they could FAQ it to make it so ICs cant join them is to either add a random, stupid rule that specifically states "No IC can be joined to a Riptide unit" - or they change the wording on drones to not count as max unit counts, which would affect morale checks since now its 3 Crisis Suits instead of 3 suits + 6 drones = 9 models.
A unit doesn't suddenly change when it loses models like that. It only matters at the start of the game, not while it's in progress.
In the last codex and the last FAQ, Shadowsun was declared to be unable to join a unit WITH her drones. She could only join a unit after losing her drones or not taking them at all. So there have been some conflicts with drones and their status in the past. I don't think its unreasonable to ask for a clarification of this particular instance with riptides and ICs.
AnonAmbientLight, you are a troll. Please stop derailing multiple threads with the same argument. Also, please look up the definition of "always", its relevant. As to our previous argument, I never said Riptides weren't good at other things, but certainly Turn 1 AV14 is not one of them. The premise of that thread was to create a competitive no riptide suits list. You never once contributed anything useful. You've continually proven you are a troll, cannot read, and don't understand basic probability. Now, you are derailing threads needlessly. I am going to ignore you, you aren't worth my time.
On topic.
Riptides. My take.
Pros:
Durable: T6, 5W, 2+/5++/3++, Possible FNP Mobile: JSJ IA: High Str/Low AP Large Blast, Range, EWO HBC: Possible High Volume of Fire and Rending, VT
Cons:
BS3
Cost
Relatively Low Damage Output
IA: Poor AA option
Requires Support: Buffmander, MarkerLights, ECPA, Guide/Precience Farseer.
Reliability: Nova reactor and Gets Hot on IA Large Blast and Ordinance Large Blast
Riptides are highly mobile, durable units, but without support they often fail to deliver and often prove to have a less than desirable damage output. Most successful builds using Riptides are supporting them in some way. O'VesaStar combines an ECPA RIptide and a VT HBC Riptide with Buffmaster Support. Adding the buffmander mitigates most downsides of the Riptide short of the Nova Reactor on the HBC Riptide. Allied Eldar with Guide or Precience can make Riptides Shine. An ECPA HBC Riptide is the best unsupported Riptide Available and doesn't require support outside of Markerlights.
Unsupported Riptides excel as IAEWO 190pt Riptides. Avoid the NOVA and use Markerlights if available to negate Cover and reduce scatter on your S8/AP2 Large Blast.
Support System Options and how Riptides should utilize them
Stim Injector: Helps Mitigate failed Nova Reactor wounds and Get Hot wounds on an HBC. A Stim Riptide can attempt to Nova every turn and expect to take a wound once per game. Increases durability of Riptide by 50% against wound damage. Potential Con is it pushes opponent to target softer units, so bait them.
Velocity Tracker: Trap for the IA Riptide. Useful in conjunction with a Stim Injector on an HBC Riptide.
EWO: Auto include on an IA Riptide. An option on an ECPA/VT HBC Riptide.
Target Lock: Required in the O'Vesa Star on the second Riptide, otherwise pointless.
Positional Relay: Niche use with Outflanking Kroot.
ATS, SDS, DC: No point.
Farsight Enclave
ECPA: Auto Include on an HBC Riptide unless O'Vesa is present.
Talisman of Arthas Moloch: Hugely beneficial in reducing the threat of JotWW.
NOVA Reactor: When should you use it, and how?
Shield: When moderate to high amounts of High Strength/Low AP incoming fire is expected. Use Judiciously.
Thrust: When a late game contest is required or rapid redeployment or tactical retreat is necessary. Use only when absolutely necessary.
Ripple Fire: Use only when in TLFB Range of a hard target or when IA has Intercepted a target.
Nova IA: Use only when Ordinance is required.
Nova HBC: Every turn unless a Shield, Thrust, or Ripple Fire is Required. Best with Stim Injector or ECPA.
Short of an HBC Riptide, use the Nova Reactor judiciously, over the course of a six turn game it will deal 2 wounds to the Riptide unless either a Stim Injector or the ECPA is present. If and at all possible supported Riptides are one of the best units around capable of ridiculous feats. Unbuffed, they are still a solid choice but often fail to live up to expectations. Without support an IA Riptide will get hot 17% of the time and fail to fire is Overcharged IA, and 55% of the time it will scatter, usually 3-5". Only 28% of the time will the IA Riptide stick its target without support.
Avoid combat with your Riptide if at all possible. They stand a reasonable chance of losing combat and running from stock assault marines. If the target isn't a naked tactical squad, vehicle, or an equally inept target do no assault it.
Thank you very much for that detailed reply. Its got me thinking about possibly making my second Riptide not IA anymore and choosing his other option ... hmmm. But a part of me says to do IA anyways for redundancy.
Other than markerlights and allying a farseer how can I make my IA Riptide better at shooting? I don't think the buff commander helps in this regard does it?
syypher wrote: Thank you very much for that detailed reply. Its got me thinking about possibly making my second Riptide not IA anymore and choosing his other option ... hmmm. But a part of me says to do IA anyways for redundancy.
Other than markerlights and allying a farseer how can I make my IA Riptide better at shooting? I don't think the buff commander helps in this regard does it?
Magnetize that gun, dont glue it. The arm fits in the slot like a glove (pun intended) so just stick a couple small magnets in there. The pipe sticking out just needs to be glued to the gun if you even want to bother with it, it pops into the hole for me just by happenstance and looks fine. I swap the gun all the time.
Also buffmander is technically the best buff to the riptide, its just a bit pricy. The upside is he doesnt have to stay with the riptide the entire game, though he usually does. Depending on what im against, but more often than not, he starts with an HBC Riptide and picks on vehicles if he passes his nova charge, and jumps to the IA riptide if he fails it (as hes almost useless without the rending except to just kill infantry, not worth the buffmander's time). Note: Nova charge happens at the start of the movement phase, so as long as you keep your riptides close enough where the one the buffmander wants to jump to can get within 1" you can jump groups before the shooting phase happens. HBC with buffmander bonuses and nova charge is WAY more lethal than the IA, but theres always that 1/3 chance of Nopelol. The IA is more stable, and the rerolling helps stop the Gets Hot! too.
To answer your question though, there is one more option.....but i wouldnt do it unless your buffmander is busy lol. Shadowsun with her Command and Control drone. The drone makes any unit of your choosing reroll to hits of 1, which also applies to Gets Hot! btw as the rules just say whether or not you can reroll period and no restrictions, and she doesnt even have to be in the same unit as the riptide (just 12" away....i think....might be a little shorter). Dont get her just for that reason rofl. Shes too pricy to just give a riptide a cheap, incomplete "Preferred Enemy" buff lol (incomplete because it doesnt apply to wound rolls, Preferred Enemy normally does)
Edit: I guess technically the buffmander jumping ship if the HBC fails his nova can be used with any unit not just an IA riptide, but odds are nothing but another riptide would want to be that close lol. HBC riptides tend to put themselves in the middle of nowhere due to 36" range, but not like theyre gonna get shot out anyway.
By chance, do you take crisis suits? If you did what wargear would you choose for them?
Currently thinking about allying tau farsight. Unsure what to load them out with. But I may stick to my regular Eldar allies. Those wave serpent with DA/scoring troops of choice inside are amazing midfield beasts!
I usually have a crisis team with 2 suits having double plasmas and the third with fusions, all with target locks and gun drones. They usually do quite a bit of damage before they die, the only reason i dont run 3 of them instead of riptides is because riptides are available turn 1 and i'll most likely have them by turn 5 lol the crisis suits.....not so much. Much squishier and in charge range danger most of the time.
Zagman wrote: AnonAmbientLight, you are a troll. Please stop derailing multiple threads with the same argument. Also, please look up the definition of "always", its relevant. As to our previous argument, I never said Riptides weren't good at other things, but certainly Turn 1 AV14 is not one of them. The premise of that thread was to create a competitive no riptide suits list. You never once contributed anything useful. You've continually proven you are a troll, cannot read, and don't understand basic probability. Now, you are derailing threads needlessly. I am going to ignore you, you aren't worth my time.
You are so full of it. Please stop calling me something i am not. It is relevant to at least bring it up about the Riptide and it's MC status. I never said that you COULDN'T take a Riptide without a drone, i just said that it should be FAQd for clarification, citing multiple sources.
The previous argument was you going balls to the wall holding on to the fact that a Riptide is poo dick against AV14 when MULTIPLE TIMES through the thread i pointed out ALL THE OTHER things it could do and why it should be considered.
And please, I CANT READ? melon-fether, i had to fething SHOVE the Gets Hot rule down your fething face after i presented the ENTIRE rule to you, not just as interpretation, but COPY fething PASTE about three times before you finally stopped being a complete cock about it.
It's really no surprise to me that you can't read, and no surprise at all that you would flip-flop on the Riptide.
NOW i'm derailing this thread you fething man-child.
how do you all normally take them? Min squads of 4?
Upgrade all of them to marker drones?
1-2 squads?
They seem pretty awesome hahah I really like the way drones look as well so fielding a bunch of them over the Pathfinders will be fun lol
You've got a couple of options depending on if you are fielding a Marko Commander or not.
If you are planning on a Marko, 2xMissile Pods, Target Lock, Drone Controller, 2xMarker Drones(saves 4 points), Iriidum Armor(If Tau Empire) is an effective loadout.
Attatch him to either a Minimal Marker Squad for 6 BS5 Markerlights. Alternatively you can attach him to a 2xMisslePod, Target Lock squad of suits with Marker Drones. Yields up to 8 BS5 Markerlights and they are cheap, again Marko's Target Lock and shooting synergies and Targets Locks out from the Marker Lights. If you go the Crisis route, the Marker Drones serve a dual purpose, they are also ablative wounds if you aren't running Iridium Armor. IMO an Iridium Marko works best with the Missile Pod Crisis Suits.
If you aren't taking a Marko, two squads of 6 can be effective as they will average two Markerlight Hits per squad. But, these are easy to kill and really could use a force multiplier like Guide or Precience to be truly effective.
Typically the Mark'O Commander you put with the marker drones has 2 drones of his own for a 4pt discount lol. Why not points are points right? lol. Just mark them so you know which are his and which are the unit, as it can make a difference if the unit gets shot up. if theres only 1 drone left you are going to want to know if its the unit or his normal drone. If its his normal drone, get him to another unit!!
6 is really all you need. Those markerlights are relentless and BS5 (with the Mark'O)....they will land unless its a flier. 6 markerlights is more than enough to lay some heat on a unit, ive never even used it all since usually what i buffed with it didnt need it all (just needed 4). You can get a couple more if you want ablative wounds, but remember these things are also jetpack units so they move 2D6 in the assault phase. Theyre much easier to keep hidden than pathfinders, just a bit more expensive to do so. The drones themselves arent that bad and ive thought of running them without a Mark'O since theyre tougher than pathfinders, mobile, and only 3pts more per model. Downside is when they dont need to move theyre BS2 instead of 3....meh. The Mark'O usually costs you ~140pts unless you literally just give him retro thrusters (hit and run) and the drone controller. But he is actually able to shoot in this mode, so might as well give him dual missile pods and a target lock so he can snipe things lol.
Ive pretty much been using pathfinders exclusively right now. Contemplating putting marker drones on broadside squads since i am intending to run 2 of them fully loaded supported by an ethereal (Zephyr's Grace so they can get somewhere, since therye firing snaps anyway, and LD10 in a 12" bubble while bonded? all for 50pts? yes please) so i dont have a third HQ slot for the Mark'O lol. Or the points for that matter
With markerdrones (mobile marker lights are essential!), you can either field them as a Mark'O squad (BS5 Shas'o with drone controller in an FA drone squad) OR field drones with a crisis squad.
Best way to do that is to maximise the drones per drone controller, i.e. one squad of 3, 6 drones. You do pay a 8pt + 15pt premium & loose out on one weapon but it does afford you ablative wounds and requires one slot (elites/troops) as compared to 2 slots (FA &HQ).
I use a squad like this with 3 fusion & 2 plasma. All suits have target locks. The squad may not get in range t1 with the suit weapons but it works well, often the drones providing ablative wounds whilst being useful at providing highly mobile ML support. I do see the risk with small pathfinder squads (fire blood, FA victory point missions) but that being said, I still find them highly effective. (I use both!)
I take a Markerdrone unit for one set of Markerlights. the second set comes from a set of three Firesight Marksman. I have two Pathfinder units, but they are not used for Markerlights.
Interesting stuff guys! All the articles I've been reading were released when the Tau codex came out and everyone was raving about Pathfinder usage with Marker Lights. I guess that's changed over the past couple months
I'm thinking of using a Skyray so once it's unloaded I'll still have those 2 Markerlights and maybe a MarkerDrone unit. Sounds legit~
What is the optimal loadout of a Crisis suit? The wargear says I can take up to 3 weapons but I don't know if that's worth the point investment on a marine statline model... Are they worth their points? T4 3+ save... and with 2x Missile Pods, they are 57pts each. Is that even worth it anymore? Or do most people keep them with just 1x Missile Pod? Or am I equipping them less than optimal.
Most people seem to be moving away from pathfinders because they are so easy to kill and not mobile. Marker drones with a commander, often in a crisis suit team, are bs5 t4 sv4+ sometimes hiding behind sv2+ commanders. The marker drones are mobile and can jsj. They only cost 1 or 3 points more than pathfinders depending on how you by them. They seem like the best choice for mass reliable markerlights.
Firesight marksmen are rarely brought up but are also great sources of marker lights. They have bs5, markerlights and stealth for only 2 points more than pathfinders. But you must pay a 45pt task to get 3 sniper drones, which isn't horrible, but not amazing either. One trick you can do is get an ethereal with 2 marker drones and join them to the sniper team. Because the firesight marksmen have drone controllers your marker drones are bs5, so now you can get 5 bs5 markerlights out of the unit. Because of majority toughness the unit is t4 instead of t3 and gets a 3+ cover save in ruins, so they are much harder to kill than pathfinders. Sniper drones also pair nicely with an ethereal because they have pulse weapons, so they can fire 3 times at 24''.
Skyrays are very legit. They give out 2 marker light hits 44% of time time, so it is not a reliable way to strip cover but are good at boosting bs by 1 or 2. But the main thing is skyrays make taking down fliers so much easier. One markerlight hit nearly doubles a broadsides accuracy against fliers.
Well, people are trying to use Pathfinders incorrectly, and that is why people are moving away from them. Like usual, the meta ignores anything but the straightforward battlefield role of any unit. Surprising how often i hear people take 6 Pathfinder units and line them up, as if they can possibly survive in a role as Markerlight caddies. is the enemy blind? Probably not. Do they know what the markerlights can do to them? absolutely. So taking them this way is asking for an execution squad. And so people stop taking them as much...missing the GREAT opportunity that Pathfinders provide you in other ways.
Firesight marksman are really quite valuable. the Rapid firing Sniper rifles with 48" base range? Even if you only take three, thats pretty good. Ethereals as you pointed out, can hide with them and of course the advantage of the Ethereal to the unit in general is...good.
But consider what a utility commander adds to the Marker drone unit and compare that value to the Firesight Marksman. Just saying. Its a VERY fair deal.
My issue with using pathfinders in that fashion is they are so bloody squishy, any random infantry squad can put the hurt on them hardcore. And their special guns feel out of place to me since you cant fully deck the squad out in them.
Iunno i guess their tactic is just too foreign to me to understand. I mainly play orks after all lol.
The previous argument was you going balls to the wall holding on to the fact that a Riptide is poo dick against AV14 when MULTIPLE TIMES through the thread i pointed out ALL THE OTHER things it could do and why it should be considered.
And please, I CANT READ? melon-fether, i had to fething SHOVE the Gets Hot rule down your fething face after i presented the ENTIRE rule to you, not just as interpretation, but COPY fething PASTE about three times before you finally stopped being a complete cock about it.
It's really no surprise to me that you can't read, and no surprise at all that you would flip-flop on the Riptide.
NOW i'm derailing this thread you fething man-child.
This has been a very informative tread. I'm currently putting together a farsight/tau army with a lot of crisis suits because I just like the idea of having a bunch suits running around.
I know I want to have at least one squad with 2x burst and 2x gun drones-so much dakka it's fun.
Then it comes down to how to build some missile pod suits and the rest of the army...
Will 1 unit with 6 marker drones and a commander with marker drones/controller be enough or should I have multiples? Are sky rays worth it?
No matter what it is, a single unit of markerlights will not be enough. Not just talking about lack of multiple targets getting marked up, but that one unit is going to be focus fired to hell and back because once its gone, your markerlights are gone for good.
Skyrays are useful if you know how to use them properly. They are not fast, so they only fire 1 markerlight at BS4 if they move at all, gotta be mindful of that. They are mainly there for a cheap anti air unit since the 6 missiles will obliterate any flier (barring bad luck) and now you got 2 skyfire-capable markerlights for any other fliers...on a platform noones going to shoot at once the missiles are gone.
Usually what you want to do is add disruption pods and just zip back and forward while you wait for fliers to appear. This includes turboboosting as it gives you a 3+ cover save. The turn a flier shows up, dont move. In your shooting phase, light it up and fire your missiles normally at BS5. They dont ignore cover this way, but you are shooting all 6 at BS5/6 rather than 2 at BS5 w/ ignores cover.
You lose the coversave this way unless you found a nice ruin to camp in for a default cover, but like i said its unlikely its going to get shot at once the missiles are gone as anti-tank weapons will have more threatening targets to deal with most of the time than an AV13/12/10 vehicle that only has markerlights lol.
You guys rock and are super helpful! w00t for the Tau community
One thing is I'm having a hard time fitting in a Buff-Commander AND a Marker-Commander into my 1500 and 1850 lists. Not because the slots (HQ+FA) are filled but because of points and other stuff that seem like they need to be in the list. I'm not very use to building Tau lists that seem to really shine once these force multipliers are applied.
I actually don't like the tiny min squad of Pathfinders in my 1500 list. I have the Skyray to help with some Markerlights once it's unloaded but I feel 1 squad isn't enough. I'd feel more comfortable with a 2nd squad but my experience isn't sufficient enough so I'm turning to more advice from you guys! And with my 1850 list I'm not sure about my Markerlight distribution either.
The only thing really benefiting from the Markerlights really is the Riptides. With TL coming from the Commanders C&C Node and the Farseers Psychic Re-roll ability, do I need more Markerlights? I know it'll help with the scatter for the IA Riptide but I honestly I'm not sure where to go as far as optimizing my lists.
TLDR: Please help me optimize/min/max my lists. I'm unsure if more Markerlights are needed since mostly only the Riptide benefits from it.
My 1500 list:
Commander (M3S, Puretide chip, C&C Node)
Riptide (IA, TLSMS, EWO)
Riptide (HBC, SMS, EWO)
10 man Fire Warrior Team
10 man Kroot Squad + Kroot Hound
4 man Pathfinder Squad
Sky Ray (Blacksun Filter, Disruption Pod)
2 man Broadside Squad (TLSMS, TL HYMS, EWO)
Farseer
5 man DA + WS (TL Scatter, Shuri Cannon, Holo)
5 man DA + WS (TL Scatter, Shuri Cannon, Holo)
My 1850 list:
Commander (M3S, Puretide chip, C&C Node)
Riptide (IA, TLSMS, EWO)
Riptide (HBC, SMS, EWO, Velocity Tracker)
10 man Fire Warrior Team
10 man Kroot Squad + Kroot Hound
4 man Pathfinder Squad
Hammerhead (Blacksun Filter, Disruption Pod)
Sky Ray (Blacksun Filter, Disruption Pod)
3 man Broadside Squad (TLSMS, TL HYMS, EWO)
Farseer
5 man DA + WS (TL Scatter, Shuri Cannon, Holo)
5 man DA + WS (TL Scatter, Shuri Cannon, Holo)
Fire Prism (Holo)
syypher wrote: You guys rock and are super helpful! w00t for the Tau community
One thing is I'm having a hard time fitting in a Buff-Commander AND a Marker-Commander into my 1500 and 1850 lists. Not because the slots (HQ+FA) are filled but because of points and other stuff that seem like they need to be in the list. I'm not very use to building Tau lists that seem to really shine once these force multipliers are applied.
I actually don't like the tiny min squad of Pathfinders in my 1500 list. I have the Skyray to help with some Markerlights once it's unloaded but I feel 1 squad isn't enough. I'd feel more comfortable with a 2nd squad but my experience isn't sufficient enough so I'm turning to more advice from you guys! And with my 1850 list I'm not sure about my Markerlight distribution either.
The only thing really benefiting from the Markerlights really is the Riptides. With TL coming from the Commanders C&C Node and the Farseers Psychic Re-roll ability, do I need more Markerlights? I know it'll help with the scatter for the IA Riptide but I honestly I'm not sure where to go as far as optimizing my lists.
TLDR: Please help me optimize/min/max my lists. I'm unsure if more Markerlights are needed since mostly only the Riptide benefits from it.
My 1500 list:
Commander (M3S, Puretide chip, C&C Node)
Riptide (IA, TLSMS, EWO)
Riptide (HBC, SMS, EWO)
10 man Fire Warrior Team
10 man Kroot Squad + Kroot Hound
4 man Pathfinder Squad
Sky Ray (Blacksun Filter, Disruption Pod)
2 man Broadside Squad (TLSMS, TL HYMS, EWO)
Farseer
5 man DA + WS (TL Scatter, Shuri Cannon, Holo)
5 man DA + WS (TL Scatter, Shuri Cannon, Holo)
My 1850 list:
Commander (M3S, Puretide chip, C&C Node)
Riptide (IA, TLSMS, EWO)
Riptide (HBC, SMS, EWO, Velocity Tracker)
10 man Fire Warrior Team
10 man Kroot Squad + Kroot Hound
4 man Pathfinder Squad
Hammerhead (Blacksun Filter, Disruption Pod)
Sky Ray (Blacksun Filter, Disruption Pod)
3 man Broadside Squad (TLSMS, TL HYMS, EWO)
Farseer
5 man DA + WS (TL Scatter, Shuri Cannon, Holo)
5 man DA + WS (TL Scatter, Shuri Cannon, Holo)
Fire Prism (Holo)
Wow, you really went all out on the Force Multipliers. You really don't need those pathfinders in addition to the Buffmander and the Farseer. I would swap that Railhead for another Skyray and spend the points saved by the Pathfinders, maybe a Stim Injector for one of your Riptides or some Missile Drones for your Broadsides.
Hammerheads with Railguns are kinda meh. They can work but they flop an do nothing more than an unsupported riptide since its a single shot that isnt twinlinked. An invul save or any form of cover you didnt strip with marker support can make it flop if you didnt fail the to hit or to wound already.
The Ionheads are actually pretty good, but i dont think you need it in that last. I dont know jack about eldar so im not sure what i would bring.
These are solid, though I'd consider the TL Fusion Blaster with the Ion Tide.
10 man Fire Warrior Team
10 man Kroot Squad + Kroot Hound
Fire Warriors...not so great, especially in low numbers. You save points with another Kroot unit.
4 man Pathfinder Squad
Pointless. Drop them.
Hammerhead (Blacksun Filter, Disruption Pod)
Another Skyray is a better buy. Hammerheads aren't very good.
Sky Ray (Blacksun Filter, Disruption Pod)
The Disruption Pod isn't all that worthwhile.
3 man Broadside Squad (TLSMS, TL HYMS, EWO)
Take 4-6 Marker Drones here and Target Locks on the Bsides.
Farseer
5 man DA + WS (TL Scatter, Shuri Cannon, Holo)
5 man DA + WS (TL Scatter, Shuri Cannon, Holo)
A bike is essential for a Farseer. I'd drop the Holo Fields as well. They do nothing versus other Tau (markerlights), Eldar (Serpents), and Daemons (assault). Those are the big three of competitive 40k.
Fire Prism (Holo)
I personally hate the Fire Prism. Overrated and overcosted for one shot.
I'd run something to the effect of:
Commander-Iridium, Puretide, MSSS, Drone Controller, Onagar Gauntlet
3 Broadsides with Target Lock, 5 Marker Drones
Riptide w HBC, SMS, Velocity, EWO Riptide w Ion, EWO, Fusion
2x Skyrays with Blacksun, SMS 3x 10 Kroot w Hound
Bikeseer
2x5 DA in Serpent w Scatter
Night Spinner
1850
Still along the lines of your list, but with some key fixes. The Broadsides split fire and the drones provide markers. The Commander gives out Monster/Tank Hunter, and makes the Drones BS 5. He also tanks wounds with T5 and a 2+. 2 Skyrays help with Marker support and anti-air.
Kroot provide more numerous troops than you had. The Bike on the Farseer lets him join a Tide and jump 2d6 in the assault phase as well. The Seer can also split off end game to contest. The Night Spinner can be replaced by a variety of units, but it is never a bad idea to have Barrage in 6th edition.
If you are going to take a buffing commander, you really need to give him a good home or he really isn't worth it. I assume he is mostly going with the broadsides, but 2 broadsides don't benefit much from a buffing commander. If you fill out that unit, making it 3 broadsides w/ target lock and 6 missile drones, the commander becomes worth it.
The HBC riptide doesn't seem amazing to me. You already have so much s6/7 shots (even more if you take those missile drones). I would make it another IA riptide. And your riptides don't really need markerlights that bad. Markerlights are great, don't get me wrong, but 4 pathfinders is not enough markerlight support and I would rather not have them than try to use a unit of 4.
I love Wraithknights with a Tau list. Helps a ton vs the Screamer deathstar. They also can nullify dog squads and scare the hell out of DPs. Adding a bit of speedy counterattack will also keep folks a little more at bay. Not to mention his durability fits in with the Riptides, AV13 Rays and the Serpents.
Also, Hit and Run on the Commander is good. I think it is more useful than the Onager.
Never ever ever a reason to not take iridium on a buffmander? dont think ive ever taken it and never needed it. Hes always hiding behind a riptide or a group of broadsides. Yeah it could be useful in broadsides but its still 25pts i MIGHT actually come into play once or twice the entire game, and probably not do much.
Hes an IC, so any LOS to the Riptides are on a 2+ and the Riptide is more durable since he has a stock 5++ at least.
If he goes with your Broadsides, Iridium is well-worth it (I even consider the Stim Injector now) because it will allow you to absorb some of the low AP/Str.8+ shots.
Thanks guys! To be honest I didn't even think of joining my buff commander with the broadsides since they have a TL gun already.
I was only considering putting him with the riptides. Is a broadside squad worth giving a bunch of missile drones to? O.o
Also what are your guys thought on something one of the more experienced tau player at my lfgs said. "Broadsides are better than riptides since they dish out lots more shots with no chance of hurting yourself." He's suggesting taking 9 broadsides as better...thoughts?
Thing about the broadsides is the twinlink part isnt wasted, Missile Drones are not twin linked and thats 12 S7 AP4 shots. They dont benefit from drone controllers sadly but throw a couple markerlights for BS bonus like you normally would anyway and now you got 24 basically WILL hit S7 AP4 shots instead of 12 and maybe another 5.
If you are really stressed for 15pts, you could drop it since it doesnt benefit the unit as much as others. Somehow i doubt you are that hard pressed for points lol, i usually have a random 50-60pts when i put tau lists together that for some reason i have issues getting rid of lol
So let me get this straight... first off if I have a drone controller only THAT MODELS drones benefits from getting their BS right?
If that's the case...and I want to try out those 6x Missile Drones in the Broadside squad since everyone and their mom is telling me it's awesome and also get more Marker Lights out there I should do something like this:
Commander: M3S, Neuro Chip, Drone Controller, the TL support system, 2x Markerlight Drones (If the drones shoot, it doesnt count as the Commander shooting right?
3x Broadsides: SMS, HYMS, Target Lock, 2x Missile Drones each
How does shooting the Missile Drones work? Let's say I choose an initial target and my Markerlight Drones shoot at it, now what can my Missile Drones shoot at? Only the same target as their designated Broadside? The entire squad still gets rerolls though right since the Commander is attached? And if my commander doesn't shoot and I choose tank hunter everyone essentially get's rerolls also on their glance/pens, including the drones?
Missile drones are specifically exempt from the bonus of the Drone Controller
On the plus side, with Missile drones, if your Broadsides move, the drones don't wind up snap firing. In fact, since all the Broadside's weapons are twin linked, the Broadsides and the missile drones are all effectively the same BS if the unit moves.
So let me get this straight... first off if I have a drone controller only THAT MODELS drones benefits from getting their BS right?
Negative. The rules specifically state that "All gun drones, marker drones, and sniper drones in the same unit as a model with a drone controller" use that model's BS.
If that's the case...and I want to try out those 6x Missile Drones in the Broadside squad since everyone and their mom is telling me it's awesome and also get more Marker Lights out there I should do something like this:
Commander: M3S, Neuro Chip, Drone Controller, the TL support system, 2x Markerlight Drones (If the drones shoot, it doesnt count as the Commander shooting right?
3x Broadsides: SMS, HYMS, Target Lock, 2x Missile Drones each
No. The drones do not count as the commander shooting. Also, Missile Drones do not benefit from a Drone Controller.
IMO, you want Iridium Armor with the Broadsides. You don't really need the C&C Node unless you want to spam missile drones. I actually like the Bside unit as a place for Marker Drones.
How does shooting the Missile Drones work? Let's say I choose an initial target and my Markerlight Drones shoot at it, now what can my Missile Drones shoot at? Only the same target as their designated Broadside? The entire squad still gets rerolls though right since the Commander is attached? And if my commander doesn't shoot and I choose tank hunter everyone essentially get's rerolls also on their glance/pens, including the drones?
You choose a target for the unit. The Drones fire on this target. Models with Target Locks can fire at other targets. Drones do not benefit from target locks. It is best to think of them as members of a unit.
Cool thanks guys! I do find that when I make my lists I also sometimes end up with spare points lol
Also what are your guys thought on something one of the more experienced tau player at my lfgs said. "Broadsides are better than riptides since they dish out lots more shots with no chance of hurting yourself." He's suggesting taking 9 broadsides as better...thoughts?
it....yeah its technically true but theres a mobility and survivability difference. Riptide with HBC doesnt notice the 36" because hes relentless, so he can move that ~8" to be able to hit everything and not get a penalty....broadsides wont do jack and might get picked off if you dont have terrain to hide them in on the way up there.
Ive had games where the terrain screwed my broadsides like that. Out of range unless i wanted to risk crossing this 10" gap of no terrain lol.....lascannons waiting for them to attempt it
Seriously, in my experience broadsides are only so-so. Good players mitigate them by counterdeployment/focussing them down first. While taking 9 of them might keep enough of them alive (with drones and a buffmander to tank) to dish out the hurt, it'll probably only take you so far, and you can still deploy against them with some armies (serpent spam, multiple iontides) and just outrange them. Its also a significant investment in a very predictable play style, gunline tau, which IMO was really good in 4th edition, but not so much now. In 6th edition you have to get places and stay there with really fragile models, and mobile units like kroot and crisis suits are good for that, but firewarriors arent so much. Same goes for contest/denial units, which is why the riptide at least to me is favorable to broadsides. A riptide can move/run/4d6 jump onto an objective turn 5, broadsides cant, and thats way more valuable in my eyes than static firesupport that hopes your opponent fails saves or runs away. I wont outright say broadsides are bad, clearly they have utility and alot of very successful armies run them. They just have weaknesses thats all, and once you understand those weaknesses you can just play around them.
I will say quad tide probably wont get as much play now. People are going to counter the living daylights out of it. But the core of my list was the ovesastar, and that'll probably stick around as its one of the most durable and range-effective units in the game. Unless they faq it out of existance, which would be a shame considering theres so many other crazy deathstars in 40k currently.
If your already running a buff commander, a 3 man squad of suits with Mpods and TL wtih marker drones are a good spot to stick your commander. They benefit just as much as the broadsides, maybe even more since now you commander if making those marker drones you bought BS5 and TL, and all the Mpods in the squad match up with the Hympods in the broadsides at that point.
Broadsides have the offense advantage. Riptides have the mobility and resiliency advantage. A good Tau army should include both. Personally, I prefer the riptide because I prefer a more mobile army. The new trend currently is mobile firepower. In that regards, broadsides are a little behind the times.
I have 9x Crisis Suits. All with TL Missile Pods and Smart Missile Systems.
I'm thinking of converting 3 of them to Plasma/Fusion Blaster for Deepstriking tank popping capabilities. Thoughts? This too many points for achieving this? Is there more efficient points spent elsewhere for some more AP1/AP2? As it stands I think only my Riptides can dish out AP1/2 shots.
Also any more C&C on my lists would be welcome. Still unsure if I need more marker light support or if it's pretty balanced out the way it is already. Really appreciate all the input I've been getting here. It's really opening my eyes onto how to play Tau more effectively and make my lists a bit sharper.
1500
Commander (M3S, Puretide chip, C&C Node)
Riptide (IA, TLSMS, EWO) - debating on if I should put fusion blasters on, 18" range kind of makes me rather use the SMS Riptide (IA, TLSMS, EWO) - debating on if I should put fusion blasters on, 18" range kind of makes me rather use the SMS 10 man Kroot Squad + Kroot Hound
10 man Kroot Squad + Kroot Hound
Sky Ray (Disruption Pod)
3 man Broadside Squad (TLSMS, TL HYMS, Targetlock)
Farseer + Jetbike
5 man DA + WS (TL Scatter, Shuri Cannon, Holo)
5 man DA + WS (TL Scatter, Shuri Cannon, Holo)
1850
Commander + 2 Marker Drones (M3S, Puretide chip, C&C Node, Drone Controller)
Riptide (IA, TLSMS, EWO)
Riptide (IA, TLSMS, EWO)
10 man Kroot Squad + Kroot Hound
10 man Kroot Squad + Kroot Hound
Sky Ray (Disruption Pod)
Sky Ray (Disruption Pod)
3 man Broadside Squad + 6x Missile Drones (TLSMS, TL HYMS, Targetlock)
Farseer + Jetbike
5 man DA + WS (TL Scatter, Shuri Catapult, Holo)
5 man DA + WS (TL Scatter, Shuri Catapult, Holo)
Nightspinner
So for the 1850 list the Commander is suppose to join the RipTides or the Broadsides. He'll give them Tank/Monster Hunter and give all the drones TL. Marker Support is coming from the Commander Marker Drones + the 2x Skyrays. The 1500 list only has the 1 Skyray for Marker support.
syypher wrote: I have 9x Crisis Suits. All with TL Missile Pods and Smart Missile Systems.
I'm thinking of converting 3 of them to Plasma/Fusion Blaster for Deepstriking tank popping capabilities. Thoughts? This too many points for achieving this? Is there more efficient points spent elsewhere for some more AP1/AP2? As it stands I think only my Riptides can dish out AP1/2 shots.
Also any more C&C on my lists would be welcome. Still unsure if I need more marker light support or if it's pretty balanced out the way it is already. Really appreciate all the input I've been getting here. It's really opening my eyes onto how to play Tau more effectively and make my lists a bit sharper.
Spoiler:
1500
Commander (M3S, Puretide chip, C&C Node)
Riptide (IA, TLSMS, EWO) - debating on if I should put fusion blasters on, 18" range kind of makes me rather use the SMS Riptide (IA, TLSMS, EWO) - debating on if I should put fusion blasters on, 18" range kind of makes me rather use the SMS 10 man Kroot Squad + Kroot Hound
10 man Kroot Squad + Kroot Hound
Sky Ray (Disruption Pod)
3 man Broadside Squad (TLSMS, TL HYMS, Targetlock)
Farseer + Jetbike
5 man DA + WS (TL Scatter, Shuri Cannon, Holo)
5 man DA + WS (TL Scatter, Shuri Cannon, Holo)
1850
Commander + 2 Marker Drones (M3S, Puretide chip, C&C Node, Drone Controller)
Riptide (IA, TLSMS, EWO)
Riptide (IA, TLSMS, EWO)
10 man Kroot Squad + Kroot Hound
10 man Kroot Squad + Kroot Hound
Sky Ray (Disruption Pod)
Sky Ray (Disruption Pod)
3 man Broadside Squad + 6x Missile Drones (TLSMS, TL HYMS, Targetlock)
Farseer + Jetbike
5 man DA + WS (TL Scatter, Shuri Catapult, Holo)
5 man DA + WS (TL Scatter, Shuri Catapult, Holo)
Nightspinner
So for the 1850 list the Commander is suppose to join the RipTides or the Broadsides. He'll give them Tank/Monster Hunter and give all the drones TL. Marker Support is coming from the Commander Marker Drones + the 2x Skyrays. The 1500 list only has the 1 Skyray for Marker support.
I don't understand the Target Lock on the Broadsides, I would if you give them Marker Drones instead of Missile Drones. Also, EWO is a solid support system for them.
Also, I don't think you meant SMS on your Criris Suits.
I like your allied Eldar contingent, where are you planning to hide the Farseer? I'd like to see you find the points to make that Nightspinner a Wraithknight, but that is because I really like the Knight.
Overall, I think it is turning into a solid list.
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Are people really paying full price? There are many stores and resellers that will at least give you 10-20% off of that.
Theres two very common reasons why people pay full price and why its quite common
1) Idiots dont know how to interwebz a deal.
2) Supporting FLGS rather than saving a few bucks.
And it still an insane cost for 9 models lol
Actually, its an insane amount of money for 27 models, Broadside and two drones each.
I fully support my FLGS, but if they are charging full price I nicely point out how many places are offering up to 20% off, and if they don't give 10% I spend my money elsewhere. I'm a business man and so far it hasn't failed yet. Also, when my FLGS does something I don't like I kindly point out how that decision led me to make my next largest purchase elsewhere. That being said ~10% is the standard discount in my area.
We vote with our dollars, and without us they don't have a business. And without them, we don't have a place to game. Mutual best interest.
Eh, FLGS always charge a little more than the cheapest internet site, but not much.
Except south korea. Feth that place. The ONLY gaming score in the entire country is in Seoul and the ass that owns it actually charges more than GW does. Needless to say i never bought from there lol
I could technically save 3-10 dollars per model if i went to the internet with my orders vs my gamestore, but i'd rather support them. Its the only place to play after all lol literally everyone in this meta has no room for a table and no terrain. I would set one up and invite people over, but i live in a dinky 25by30sqft apartment lol. Dirt dirt cheap and i dont need more space so not like i care. Staying here till im done with colleges so i can save money better.
Could someone do a favor for people that don't own the book and list what the special systems do? Points are not necessary as they are easily found on army builder, and listing the cost of the points is against dakka policies.
It's pretty much known some of the upgrades give bonuses to the squads like tank hunter, ignore cover, or tl.
Crisis Iridium Suit - +1Toughness and 2+ armor for the bearer.
Multi-Spectrum Sensor Suite (M3S) - If the model bearing this upgrade does not shoot in the shooting phase, his unit ignores cover. Does not work in overwatch or interceptor.
Command and Control Node - If the model bearing this upgrade does not shoot in the shooting phase, his unit may reroll failed to hit rolls. Does not work in overwatch or interceptor. (Yes they stack too)
Puretide-chip - At the start of the owner's turn the bearer chooses Monster Hunter, Tank Hunter, Furious Charge, Stubborn, or Counterattack and ONLY the model with the upgrade gains this rule (Note: Stubborn, Monster Hunter, and Tank Hunter rules spread to the unit anyway)
The others are either pointless or so situational you might see them taken but never actually used (Gauntlet is always taken but unless you charge the unit with the buffmander you will never see it used (single attack S10 AP1 at initiative, cannot make other attacks).
So for the 1850 list the Commander is suppose to join the RipTides or the Broadsides. He'll give them Tank/Monster Hunter and give all the drones TL.
Don't join the commander to the riptide, he will make the majority toughness 4.
He is absolutely right, I didn't see you added drones at the 1850 level. One T4 Model and one T6 Model is still majority T6, but once you add even one drone Majority T goes to4.
The Farseer WAS going to either be hiding with the Broadsides if I had a Commander on the Riptide or he was going to be with the Riptide.
With Iambsandlions suggestion him and his drones joining a riptide would make the Majority Toughness 4. So I might just be keeping my commander with the Broadsides.
I'm planning to keep the Farseer (since he's only 1 model) bouncing between Riptides. They will still be majority toughness for the Riptide. He will be taking the TL psychic ability that lets you reroll hits.
syypher wrote: The Farseer WAS going to either be hiding with the Broadsides if I had a Commander on the Riptide or he was going to be with the Riptide.
With Iambsandlions suggestion him and his drones joining a riptide would make the Majority Toughness 4. So I might just be keeping my commander with the Broadsides.
I'm planning to keep the Farseer (since he's only 1 model) bouncing between Riptides. They will still be majority toughness for the Riptide. He will be taking the TL psychic ability that lets you reroll hits.
To be honest Buffing commanders are a little too expensive to add to a single riptide. They are 160pts at the cheapest and don't shoot so you have to ask yourself would you pay about 360 for a riptide that ignores cover and is twin linked? When added to a unit of 3 broadsides and 6 drones he becomes more like a 20pt upgrade that allows tank/monster hunter, twin linking and ignore cover, plus a meat shield.
Joining the farseer to the riptide is a great plan. This protects the farseer, allows him to use his powers on the riptide and allows him to get close enough to use any maledictions he may have.
Zagman wrote: I don't understand the Target Lock on the Broadsides, I would if you give them Marker Drones instead of Missile Drones. Also, EWO is a solid support system for them.
Using a Rhino for ex.
If the Broadsides have Targetlock then the 6x Missile Drones can fire at the Rhino and the 3x Broadsides can fire at 3 different targets. Say 3 other Rhinos. Right? Or am I not using Targetlock correctly.
Targetlock is usually what i put on my broadsides, i kinda stopped puting EWO on them because the drones dont shoot during it and now theyre forced to fire at the unit you intercepted at, whether it died or not (since i cant find anything allowing otherwise, and it still falls under the whole "One unit fires at one unit" thing).
Reason for it is theres usually only 2-3 targets, usually large blobs of units or fliers, that you'd WANT to fire that many shots at. Im not shooting 24 S7 AP4 shots and 12 S5 AP5 shots at a single rhino lol
Vineheart01 wrote: Targetlock is usually what i put on my broadsides, i kinda stopped puting EWO on them because the drones dont shoot during it and now theyre forced to fire at the unit you intercepted at, whether it died or not (since i cant find anything allowing otherwise, and it still falls under the whole "One unit fires at one unit" thing).
Reason for it is theres usually only 2-3 targets, usually large blobs of units or fliers, that you'd WANT to fire that many shots at. Im not shooting 24 S7 AP4 shots and 12 S5 AP5 shots at a single rhino lol
Aside from the face they fire in two distinct phases. The Missile Drones are free to fire at whatever target they want in your shooting phase. Who the Broadsides Intercepted has no bearing on who they can target in your shooting phase. Only stipulation is that any weapon that intercepted cannot fire in your following shooting phase.
This is one of the most interesting, and useful threads I've read on this forum for quite some time, thanks so far for the information. I've been playing Imperial fists for some time, since I had a battle company worth of marines in various states of disrepair, but I've recently made the decision that once my yellow paint runs out, I shall bring my tau out of retirement.
I've been on the receiving end of a few nasty lists, and one thing I noticed is the distinct lack of crisis suits in most of the hard core lists. So, is the crisis team dead? And are broadsides and Riptides to blame? What role can the crisis teams fill that would be useful? With the lack of reliable weaponry to crack open AV14 are twin fusion blaster DS suits viable? Or should the crisis teams be reserved for farsight only lists? And whatever happened to the reliable fire-knife?
madtankbloke wrote: This is one of the most interesting, and useful threads I've read on this forum for quite some time, thanks so far for the information. I've been playing Imperial fists for some time, since I had a battle company worth of marines in various states of disrepair, but I've recently made the decision that once my yellow paint runs out, I shall bring my tau out of retirement.
I've been on the receiving end of a few nasty lists, and one thing I noticed is the distinct lack of crisis suits in most of the hard core lists. So, is the crisis team dead? And are broadsides and Riptides to blame? What role can the crisis teams fill that would be useful? With the lack of reliable weaponry to crack open AV14 are twin fusion blaster DS suits viable? Or should the crisis teams be reserved for farsight only lists? And whatever happened to the reliable fire-knife?
The Riptide has replaced the Crisis Suit in most competetive lists. They aren't bad, but bring less durability than the Riptides and arguably more firepower. Though, they have a place in the Farsight Enclave and Farsight Bomb and can be used as cheap scoring units or get to really spread their winds in different loadouts. Running dual Missile Pods Target Locks and Marker Drones can be a great home for a Drone Controller Commander.
The Fireknife and all mixed weapon suits have fallen out of favor for the more efficient mono weapon units. I've seen good arguments for spending a left over systems slot on a flamer.
Dual Fusion suits are still a vialbe DS strategy and one of the Tau's only effective anti AV14 solutions. Though, currently AV14 has fallen out of favor. I'd expect to see a resurgence of it due to the reduction in melta spam.
madtankbloke wrote: This is one of the most interesting, and useful threads I've read on this forum for quite some time, thanks so far for the information. I've been playing Imperial fists for some time, since I had a battle company worth of marines in various states of disrepair, but I've recently made the decision that once my yellow paint runs out, I shall bring my tau out of retirement.
I've been on the receiving end of a few nasty lists, and one thing I noticed is the distinct lack of crisis suits in most of the hard core lists. So, is the crisis team dead? And are broadsides and Riptides to blame? What role can the crisis teams fill that would be useful? With the lack of reliable weaponry to crack open AV14 are twin fusion blaster DS suits viable? Or should the crisis teams be reserved for farsight only lists? And whatever happened to the reliable fire-knife?
The Riptide has replaced the Crisis Suit in most competetive lists. They aren't bad, but bring less durability than the Riptides and arguably more firepower. Though, they have a place in the Farsight Enclave and Farsight Bomb and can be used as cheap scoring units or get to really spread their winds in different loadouts. Running dual Missile Pods Target Locks and Marker Drones can be a great home for a Drone Controller Commander.
The Fireknife and all mixed weapon suits have fallen out of favor for the more efficient mono weapon units. I've seen good arguments for spending a left over systems slot on a flamer.
Dual Fusion suits are still a vialbe DS strategy and one of the Tau's only effective anti AV14 solutions. Though, currently AV14 has fallen out of favor. I'd expect to see a resurgence of it due to the reduction in melta spam.
Thanks for the answer
So it's a major switch from the generalist setups of the last codex to more specific ones in the current one? I take it then, because the riptide is so good, and I must get some but only after my painting is done!, that crisis suits are only taken if you have a specific build in mind, such as a marker drone blob, tank killing or some such, and broadsides are better for missile spam, and riptides for killing MEQ and TEQ. That being the case, since I have 10 crisis suits I'll have to find some way to make them useful.
Since my ally is Eldar I have actually even thought to replace the DS Crisis Fusion suits with a Fire Dragon + Wave Serpent squad.
1) I get a Wave Serpent...
2) Fire Dragon's guns aren't as far range but I get more bang for the buck (shots)
3) I get another Wave Serpent. That in itself is very powerful.
And I totally agree, this thread rocks. I started it just trying to learn Tau from just jumping back into 40k from 5th. Questions answered opened up more questions and they were answered very very well! I honestly can't really think of much more to ask lol
Almost the entirety of the old codex tactics are gone. If you knew anything about the old lists, ignore them. There are 4 big reasons:
1) Markerlights are actually available now. They were too expensive before so we relied on the upgrade for +1BS instead.
2) Broadsides are nerfed to hell and back (railguns anyway)
3) Dual non-TL weapons removing the unusual long range + short range gun combos.
4) Riptides lol
There isnt a single thing i used in old dex or seen used that is still around. This is probably the biggest flip a race has taken lol but hten again that was one hell of an old codex.
Whats ironic about this last post is that I have found myself using Crisis Teams which I never did like doing before. Ironic because the meta SAID it was good in the old codex and now I feel they actually ARE.
And I'm BACK to using Kroot, because when 6E hit, Kroot went from meh, to Gawd awful. And now that the new codex is here, they're back better than ever! So in some ways, the more things change, the more they stay the same.
Oh and I am plotting world domination with my Stingwings. I always liked Stingwings. Now I like them a lot. =).
So I'm not sure that everything about the old Tactica has changed. But I'll say this much: I would ACTUALLY use a Skyray in a competitive list. Now THATS a flip.
Crisis are a bit better too, only reason i didnt include them because majority of players go riptide spam.
Allowing crisis teams to take 2 of the same weapon non-twinlinked was an insane buff to them. Giving them built in BSFilter and Multi-tracker was icing on the cake lol.
Its easier to have special operations-type crisis suits now. I havnt had a game yet where i didnt have my deepstriking melta-bomb because it always wrecks stuff my riptides shouldnt be shooting at (note that they COULD but be a dumb idea to, such as high armor)
I have two single model crisis squads; dual flamer & FB. How do they sound?
They are apart of an Enclave primary (Skyrays, 2 XV88's, IA XV108, Pathfinders, 3 suits + 6 marker drones, fireblade) with a Tau Empire allied secondary (24 pathfinders, ethereal, pathfinders). 1500pt
Cheap solodin style troops, drop em, hide em. Use markerlights to make the fusion gun reliable, otherwise they are standalone with suit mobility & 2x Flamers.
So for the 1850 list the Commander is suppose to join the RipTides or the Broadsides. He'll give them Tank/Monster Hunter and give all the drones TL.
Don't join the commander to the riptide, he will make the majority toughness 4.
He is absolutely right, I didn't see you added drones at the 1850 level. One T4 Model and one T6 Model is still majority T6, but once you add even one drone Majority T goes to4.
riptide drones are t6 homie. Unless you are talking about the commanders' drones
So for the 1850 list the Commander is suppose to join the RipTides or the Broadsides. He'll give them Tank/Monster Hunter and give all the drones TL.
Don't join the commander to the riptide, he will make the majority toughness 4.
He is absolutely right, I didn't see you added drones at the 1850 level. One T4 Model and one T6 Model is still majority T6, but once you add even one drone Majority T goes to4.
riptide drones are t6 homie. Unless you are talking about the commanders' drones
If you had actually read any of the posts you would see that he has no Riptide drones, so obviously I was talking about the T4 Commander's Drones. Homie, dawg, g.
So for the 1850 list the Commander is suppose to join the RipTides or the Broadsides. He'll give them Tank/Monster Hunter and give all the drones TL.
Don't join the commander to the riptide, he will make the majority toughness 4.
He is absolutely right, I didn't see you added drones at the 1850 level. One T4 Model and one T6 Model is still majority T6, but once you add even one drone Majority T goes to4.
riptide drones are t6 homie. Unless you are talking about the commanders' drones
If you had actually read any of the posts you would see that he has no Riptide drones, so obviously I was talking about the T4 Commander's Drones. Homie, dawg, g.
Alright dogs lets chillax yo? Aight? Fa realz
I'd prefer to stay more Tau if at all possible when I'm doing my Eldar allies. Read what you guys were saying with the dual fusion blaster Crisis Suits and now it's got me back on the fence. I'd REALLY like someone to push me over to the side that says Crisis Suits + Dual Fusion Blasters > Fire Dragons + Wave Serpent. But I'm having a hard time because of how sick awesome Wave Serpents are.
Can someone clarify for me where it allows a Crisis suit to take two single versions of one weapon system? Two separate Plasma rifles for instance. As far as I can tell It only allows for one weapon to be purchased, or for two as a twin linked version.
It doesnt directly say that anymore. All it says is that the second cost is for a twinlinked version which counts as 2 weapon slots. In the previous dex it added in afterwords you cannot take the same gun multiple times except to twinlink it.
Also the FAQ so people stopped insisting old rules still exist. Biggest thing i hate about this game is when a new rule conflicts with an old (and mind you no longer existing) rule and people go WTF!?
Okay, I am confused now. I plan to run White Scars (bikes, speeders and gravcents) with buffmander and three bsides.
Buffmander would have 2 marker drones, the usual buffs (ignore cover, drone controller, re-roll misses) and no guns. 2 broadsides would have missiles/sms and 1 with rail rifle and target lock. 3 missile drones would be attached to them (1 to each?).
1) Must I shoot at the unit I markerlight with the drones?
2) Can the missile drones choose a separate target, or only the one attached to the railside?
3) Must that missile drone fire at the same target as the railside?
4) Can I run them like this or do they all need the target lock?
5) If they all had target lock, could I shoot the missdrones and HYMPs at one (or three) target and the SMS at another target?
6) Will they benefit from the reroll, ie. should they miss inspite of TL, they were able to reroll once?
I have some assumptions on these questions, but would like verification.
Vineheart01 wrote: It doesnt directly say that anymore. All it says is that the second cost is for a twinlinked version which counts as 2 weapon slots. In the previous dex it added in afterwords you cannot take the same gun multiple times except to twinlink it.
Also the FAQ so people stopped insisting old rules still exist. Biggest thing i hate about this game is when a new rule conflicts with an old (and mind you no longer existing) rule and people go WTF!?
For clarity here is the FAQ wording. I don't think I'm violating any Dakka rules.
Q: Can I take three of the same (not Twin-linked) weapons on my
Crisis suit? (p100)
A: Yes. Remember though that a Crisis battlesuit can still only
fire a maximum of two weapon systems per Shooting phase.
For example: A Crisis battlesuit could be equipped with three
(non Twin-linked) burst cannons, or one Twin-linked burst
cannon and one (non Twin-linked) burst cannon, so long as
you pay the appropriate cost in each instance. In either case,
make sure your opponent is aware how you have chosen to
equip such models at the beginning of the game.
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Naw wrote: Okay, I am confused now. I plan to run White Scars (bikes, speeders and gravcents) with buffmander and three bsides.
Buffmander would have 2 marker drones, the usual buffs (ignore cover, drone controller, re-roll misses) and no guns. 2 broadsides would have missiles/sms and 1 with rail rifle and target lock. 3 missile drones would be attached to them (1 to each?).
1) Must I shoot at the unit I markerlight with the drones?
2) Can the missile drones choose a separate target, or only the one attached to the railside?
3) Must that missile drone fire at the same target as the railside?
4) Can I run them like this or do they all need the target lock?
5) If they all had target lock, could I shoot the missdrones and HYMPs at one (or three) target and the SMS at another target?
6) Will they benefit from the reroll, ie. should they miss inspite of TL, they were able to reroll once?
I have some assumptions on these questions, but would like verification.
1) Commmander and all drones would fire at 1 unit. Broadsides at their choosing.
2) see above
3) No, see above
4) only suits carry target lock. Usless to put it on the Commander since he wont be firing.
5) each model with target lock could declare to fire at one single unit.
6) using a buff for missleside is a waste. You cannot roll a re-roll.
Thanks for responses. I will not give buffmander the reroll functionality then. I am also happy to be shooting all missiles at one target and the rail rifle at another. On the other hand I am not sure what that S8 brings now that would be superior to the missiles. I have the grav weapons to take care of heavy armor.
2 marker drones firing at BS5 should almost always give me 2 hits, meaning the broadsides would then shoot ignore cover shots at BS5, twinlinked.
So my revised list is actually cheaper and at 1850 I can include 1 more missile drone
Naw wrote: Thanks for responses. I will not give buffmander the reroll functionality then. I am also happy to be shooting all missiles at one target and the rail rifle at another. On the other hand I am not sure what that S8 brings now that would be superior to the missiles. I have the grav weapons to take care of heavy armor.
2 marker drones firing at BS5 should almost always give me 2 hits, meaning the broadsides would then shoot ignore cover shots at BS5, twinlinked.
So my revised list is actually cheaper and at 1850 I can include 1 more missile drone
Markerdrones are not network markerlights so the unit firing them can not benefit from them. The command and control node, which twin links your shots, is actually very good because it twin links the missile drones who have very poor bs. Twin linked bs2 is nearly twice as effective as normal bs2 shots. Taking the C&C node will give you more bang for your buck than adding another missile drone in its place. More over 2 bs5 shots only both hit about 70% of the time, 2 bs5 tl shots both hit about 95% of the time.
Wasnt that the supposed reason for markerdrones in the old dex costing 30pts a pop? i seem to remember networked markerlights being on more than 1 unit (my old dex is with my BRB in the mail...geting that tomorrow finally YAY).
At any rate, i found it odd the only way to get networked markerlights was on a body that literally only cares about it once lol. Skyray just boosts itself to BS5 and fires all its missiles, now its a floating BS4 markerlight platform lol
So marker drones for that setup are useless and the points will be saved for something else. I need to get my hands on the codex before asking obvious questions. My assumptions are from playing one Tau opponent, who still seems to be playing them incorrectly :(
Really appreciate all the Tau vets pouring your experiences and tactics into this thread. I'm a pretty competitive player and I'm really glad I started this thread and got the responses that were given. Extremely helpful!
I had a tournament yesterday (2v2, but basically my Tau/Eldar list) and I know it's nothing as competitive as a 1v1 1500 or 1750/1850 tournament but it really helped me understand what my units are capable of against different armies.
My partner and I won all 3 games we played but only got 3rd as 1st and 2nd got a bit more points in tie-breaker stats.
One thing I tried out was:
Tau Commander: MSSS, Puretide Chip, Iridium Suit, Drone Controller
Broadside unit of 3 + 6 Marker Drones: All missile drones with Targetlock
That squad was a beast at destroying whatever they shot at. Target locking 2x Rhinos and popping them both, destroying entire squads behind aegis, reliably marking up targets for my other units to shoot with BS5 TL Markerdrones, Commander absorbing tons of shots from non-AP2 weaponry and even basically wiping out max DE jetbike squads that thought they were safe from 2x Broadsides .
One thing though, when they focused fired him (due to my bad positioning really and his insanely lucky roles) with a orbital bombardment which hit direct and a thunderfire cannon which racked up TONS of wounds to take on my commander the units power level drastically dropped. Commander can only take so many saves when its AP2 forcing me to take the 4+ cover save from the Orbital, then after he died my drones and broadsides were pretty much almost wiped from all the TFC wounds. We barely got the win on that game.
RipTide felt like it didn't do as much destruction as the broadsides but it survived all game, as expected though. (So did my broadsides though the last game put the squad down to 2 broadsides and 1 markerdrone left). The RipTide even miraculously won combat vs a GK dreadknight and killed it! My opp was so mad.
Outflanking Kroot + Hound squads was amazing. And the Skyrays were allstars taking out flyers and marking/SMS'ing things after their payload was done. Good stuff!
Anyways, was a great game and I'm thinking though next time I'm going to add some Fusion blaster Crisis Suits for a more all-comers type list. It was near impossible to take out AV14.
RipTide felt like it didn't do as much destruction as the broadsides but it survived all game, as expected though
Thats what they do. Shot per point theyre pretty crappy in the codex, its just those few shots are strong enough to still do something and its on a body that does...not....fething....DIE lol
RipTide felt like it didn't do as much destruction as the broadsides but it survived all game, as expected though
Thats what they do. Shot per point theyre pretty crappy in the codex, its just those few shots are strong enough to still do something and its on a body that does...not....fething....DIE lol
indeed...
Not to mention the fact that many opponents hate it when you shoot them and then jump off out of range/los etc...
However i always find my crisis suits seem to be blessed, in some cases i could happily do away with my 2 riptides and stick in more suits to cause even more hell.
my humble 3 man team packs 3 TL plasma rifles & 3 missile pods, and some shield drones. They are usually assisted by my irridium commander, they have zapped all sorts marines, guard as well as orks... add in 3 markerlights to ensure BS 4 and no cover usually means bye bye the target- to much whining on the opposite side Oh and do not forget they bugger off aftwerwards- the cheek of it
Its partly why i seem to enjoy playing Tau so much, they offer such flexibility and good firepower that actually requires far more thought than many seem to think. I may have lost the 2v2 game on friday, partly the bad luck of my marine ally (facing marines), but i made them pay, being 8-1 down on kill points and drawing it by the next turn was rather a nasty shock, excellent application of firepower indeed... we lost by 4 points in the end (2k per player btw...), better co-operation was needed on my side
Still i get abuse hurled at me for playing Tau, however the culprits don't mind having my Tau on their side when it come to giving a harsh beating
It's awesome to see the the Tau community come in and help each other out like this. As mentioned, all the vet players are providing great info of Tau strategies and tactics, and it's really great to read this tweak with your list.
I am trying to build a 1500 point list for a tournament in a week or two, any tips from all you guys?
Here's my list I am currently thinking of, I am using a Farsight Enclaves list
Commander - 2xMP, VT, DC Riptide - IA, TLFB, EWO, Stims
Riptide - IA, TLFB, EWO, Stims
12xFire Warriors - Shas'Ui
12xFire Warriors - Shas'Ui
3xCrisis Suits - 6xMP, 3xVT, 4xMarker Drones
6xPathfinders
6xPathfinders
Hammerhead - RG, Sub Rounds, Longstrike, SMS, DP, Sensor Spines, Auto Repair
1499
Commander and Crisis Teams rule the skies with the Skyfire missiles, and when flyers dealt with throw out BS5 ML and missiles
Fire Warrior team deal with infantry ( mainly hordes )
Riptides throw Pi Plate at units with 3+ and 2+ saves, Fusion Blasters incase of high AV spam.
Pathfinder throw out ML from cover
Longstrike opens up tanks like soup cans with his S 10 TH shot and ML support to remove cover.
Reckon I will stand a chance?
P.S. Never played in a tournament before so no experience with meta.
Tbh the longstrike is a little overpriced for what he does. If he was preferred enemy against everyone it would be valid but its only IG so wth. Its still a single shot that isnt twinlinked, tankhunter helps with the pen on av14 but you still gotta hit them. And you have a small amount of markerlights, i'd be surprised if you do more than strip cover. (As ive said in other threads i believe preferred enemy should never be on a specific race because it favors list tailorings, which should never be a thing catered to. So i hate that rule lol)
Stims on Riptides are also a but pointless imo. Some people swear by them but they might be in a meta that people actually try to kill the riptides - in mine noone pays attention to them unless an assaulty team can pincer them. Thats 70pts you could dump into more markerlights to make the Longstrike a little more worth it and reliable. Either a third pathfinder or bigger pathfinders.
Remember that Markerlights do not help the unit they are attached to. The only markerlight that does that anymore is the Skyray's markerlights. Those 4 markerdrones in your crisis team will not do anything unless the crisis team fails to kill a flier, and they actually snapfired the flier (remember the VT is model-by-model, drones do not get it). Theyre just ablative wounds at this point, and since they cost the same now i'd just switch them to sheld drones. I would be surprised if those drones survived long enough for fliers to be dead so the unit can shoot-then-support-the-next-unit on the ground.
Reason for me intervening and trying to help the tau community is im tired of people labeling tau as the "no skill no fun" army because of 3-4 riptide lists. We have far better combos out there, but they arent "I put models here i win" so noone sees them. Yes i still use 2 riptides but thats because a single riptide doesnt do squat and no riptides usually means i have to table you because Crisis suits always always get pasted for me once the drones are out of the way - or run off the board lol
I think the Stim Injector is actually a better upgrade than many folks realize. Consider the average price of a Ion Riptide is likely to be 190, if not more depending on Velocity Trackers. 35 Pts ends up being a relatively low cost for an increase of about 33% in durability. It also helps a lot vs Grav, which is exceedingly effective vs Riptides (especially if the Scars go first on certain deployments). I also think the FNP helps you to win the war of attrition vs opposing Tau. Unfortunately in the current meta, as a Tau player you need to be looking to gain an advantage over the other Tau folks you are likely to run into. I think Stim/Skyshield can provide that extra durability to swing the match.
Oh no doubt the FNP is awesome even if it is 35pts, the point im getting at is who the hell is going to shoot at it unless you fail 3-4 novas first? Yes you can take it for novas too but meh. I take it if i have points left over and i already have enough markerlights to feel safe. Otherwise i leave it at home. Especially for the Ion Accelerator riptides its unneeded because they can sit in the back edge of the table and hit whatever they want. I would wager its useful for an HBC riptide because hes sitting in the middle of the board and if any of your riptides are getting into trouble, its probably him.
Its more of a "Not needed but still awesome" upgrade than anything else. Probably the only one in the entire game far as i know lol
LValx wrote:I think the Stim Injector is actually a better upgrade than many folks realize. Consider the average price of a Ion Riptide is likely to be 190, if not more depending on Velocity Trackers. 35 Pts ends up being a relatively low cost for an increase of about 33% in durability. It also helps a lot vs Grav, which is exceedingly effective vs Riptides (especially if the Scars go first on certain deployments). I also think the FNP helps you to win the war of attrition vs opposing Tau. Unfortunately in the current meta, as a Tau player you need to be looking to gain an advantage over the other Tau folks you are likely to run into. I think Stim/Skyshield can provide that extra durability to swing the match.
Actually, its a 50% increase in Durability. Riptide normally has 5 wounds, it takes on average 7.5 after FNP.
Vineheart01 wrote:Oh no doubt the FNP is awesome even if it is 35pts, the point im getting at is who the hell is going to shoot at it unless you fail 3-4 novas first? Yes you can take it for novas too but meh.
I take it if i have points left over and i already have enough markerlights to feel safe. Otherwise i leave it at home. Especially for the Ion Accelerator riptides its unneeded because they can sit in the back edge of the table and hit whatever they want. I would wager its useful for an HBC riptide because hes sitting in the middle of the board and if any of your riptides are getting into trouble, its probably him.
Its more of a "Not needed but still awesome" upgrade than anything else. Probably the only one in the entire game far as i know lol
I do field Stim Injectors on all of my Farsight Enclave Riptides. I find my opponents do try and kill them, that is partly because I often deploy with little else for the to shoot. On an HBC Riptide which will be attempting to NOVA nearly every turn it is a must to help mitigate the Failed NOVA Reactor wounds.
I look at it this way, for 70pts you can give your two Riptides the wounds of 3 Riptides. They are also great for when you Riptide gets caught in an unfortunate combat or becomes a sacrificial Tarpit. I've seen Stim Injectors save enough wounds to keep Riptides in the fight and avoid being swept especially against other MCs who would normally stop it to death. A good example is a Wraithknight deals 1.4/.7 depending on Nova Shield while a Riptide only Smashes for .8 wounds back. The Stim Injector greatly increases the likelihood the Riptide will survive and even gives it the off chance of winning combat. With Stim Wraithknight deals 1.0/.5 wounds to the Riptides .8.
Similar can be said about Daemon Princes and other MCs, though the Riptide stands a much lower chance of hurting them due to their Invuln, Tarpitting can still be an option in dire circumstances.
IXLoiero95XI wrote: It's awesome to see the the Tau community come in and help each other out like this. As mentioned, all the vet players are providing great info of Tau strategies and tactics, and it's really great to read this tweak with your list.
I am trying to build a 1500 point list for a tournament in a week or two, any tips from all you guys?
Here's my list I am currently thinking of, I am using a Farsight Enclaves list
Commander - 2xMP, VT, DC Riptide - IA, TLFB, EWO, Stims
Riptide - IA, TLFB, EWO, Stims
12xFire Warriors - Shas'Ui
12xFire Warriors - Shas'Ui
3xCrisis Suits - 6xMP, 3xVT, 4xMarker Drones
6xPathfinders
6xPathfinders
Hammerhead - RG, Sub Rounds, Longstrike, SMS, DP, Sensor Spines, Auto Repair
1499
Commander and Crisis Teams rule the skies with the Skyfire missiles, and when flyers dealt with throw out BS5 ML and missiles
Fire Warrior team deal with infantry ( mainly hordes )
Riptides throw Pi Plate at units with 3+ and 2+ saves, Fusion Blasters incase of high AV spam.
Pathfinder throw out ML from cover
Longstrike opens up tanks like soup cans with his S 10 TH shot and ML support to remove cover.
Reckon I will stand a chance?
P.S. Never played in a tournament before so no experience with meta.
Well the pathfinders are far more squishy than the markerdrones are. Might want to bloat the FW's slightly less, add the drone controller and two Markerdrones onto the commanders suit. That way if he peels off, he can take two drones with him and still Marker things, instead of putting that task solely on the crisis team. Also gives you more target variety should you need it.
LValx wrote:I think the Stim Injector is actually a better upgrade than many folks realize. Consider the average price of a Ion Riptide is likely to be 190, if not more depending on Velocity Trackers. 35 Pts ends up being a relatively low cost for an increase of about 33% in durability. It also helps a lot vs Grav, which is exceedingly effective vs Riptides (especially if the Scars go first on certain deployments). I also think the FNP helps you to win the war of attrition vs opposing Tau. Unfortunately in the current meta, as a Tau player you need to be looking to gain an advantage over the other Tau folks you are likely to run into. I think Stim/Skyshield can provide that extra durability to swing the match.
Actually, its a 50% increase in Durability. Riptide normally has 5 wounds, it takes on average 7.5 after FNP.
Vineheart01 wrote:Oh no doubt the FNP is awesome even if it is 35pts, the point im getting at is who the hell is going to shoot at it unless you fail 3-4 novas first? Yes you can take it for novas too but meh.
I take it if i have points left over and i already have enough markerlights to feel safe. Otherwise i leave it at home. Especially for the Ion Accelerator riptides its unneeded because they can sit in the back edge of the table and hit whatever they want. I would wager its useful for an HBC riptide because hes sitting in the middle of the board and if any of your riptides are getting into trouble, its probably him.
Its more of a "Not needed but still awesome" upgrade than anything else. Probably the only one in the entire game far as i know lol
I do field Stim Injectors on all of my Farsight Enclave Riptides. I find my opponents do try and kill them, that is partly because I often deploy with little else for the to shoot. On an HBC Riptide which will be attempting to NOVA nearly every turn it is a must to help mitigate the Failed NOVA Reactor wounds.
I look at it this way, for 70pts you can give your two Riptides the wounds of 3 Riptides. They are also great for when you Riptide gets caught in an unfortunate combat or becomes a sacrificial Tarpit. I've seen Stim Injectors save enough wounds to keep Riptides in the fight and avoid being swept especially against other MCs who would normally stop it to death. A good example is a Wraithknight deals 1.4/.7 depending on Nova Shield while a Riptide only Smashes for .8 wounds back. The Stim Injector greatly increases the likelihood the Riptide will survive and even gives it the off chance of winning combat. With Stim Wraithknight deals 1.0/.5 wounds to the Riptides .8.
Similar can be said about Daemon Princes and other MCs, though the Riptide stands a much lower chance of hurting them due to their Invuln, Tarpitting can still be an option in dire circumstances.
Just my 2cents.
Yeah, I didnt bother to run full math or anything. But its obvious that it is a point efficient upgrade that bestows a considerable upgrade at a relatively cheap cost.
Also, while good players will often ignore Riptides as much as possible (generally inefficient to shoot), there are some units that can put them down with relative ease. The O'vesa star or the Buff Commander with any Ap2 unit will put down a Riptide fairly quickly. Grav weapons on fast profiles also scare them, Scars can get a bunch of alpha striking Grav shots if they go first and the Riptide is too big to hide out of LOS usually). Stim gives you a second dice roll to save wounds, which is huge and as Zagman pointed out it makes it less painful to use your NOVA reactor.
There is a distinct advantage to be gained by presenting only exceedingly durable units to your opponent. A lot of Tau lists I've seen generally have very durable shooting platforms, Skyrays with their AV13, Riptides, Suits with Buff Commander. They usually support this with small troop squads that are kept in reserve. I think this strategy works well because it denies your opponent the ability to simply focus down troops while ignoring your durable shooting units.
Lastly, in objective missions it isn't always wise to ignore a Riptide, especially if Tau go second. Riptides are amazing at contesting objectives and really excel at hunting troops with their SMS. It isn't overly difficult to force opponents to shoot them and FNP makes it a much tougher pill to swallow.
Vineheart01 wrote: Those 4 markerdrones in your crisis team will not do anything unless the crisis team fails to kill a flier, and they actually snapfired the flier (remember the VT is model-by-model, drones do not get it).
Hang on a second, if the drone controller on the Commander allows the drone use his ballistic skill when firing, then they would also be BS 5 against flier because he shoots at fliers with BS 5because he has skyfire.
I've tried 6 marker drones on 3 suits, spending a further 23pt premium to get target locks and a drone controller. Mobile BS3 T4 4+sv markerlights are fairly useful I have found. Also provide a good buffer to the 3 suits, complements my static markers nicely!
There is a distinct advantage to be gained by presenting only exceedingly durable units to your opponent. A lot of Tau lists I've seen generally have very durable shooting platforms, Skyrays with their AV13, Riptides, Suits with Buff Commander. They usually support this with small troop squads that are kept in reserve. I think this strategy works well because it denies your opponent the ability to simply focus down troops while ignoring your durable shooting units.
Lastly, in objective missions it isn't always wise to ignore a Riptide, especially if Tau go second. Riptides are amazing at contesting objectives and really excel at hunting troops with their SMS. It isn't overly difficult to force opponents to shoot them and FNP makes it a much tougher pill to swallow.
You just described my list and play style almost perfectly.
I don't field SMS, I like having the TL Fusion Blaster running around, especially with fliers like the Helldrake running around and Tau's relative difficulty with AV13/14. TLFBs on my Riptides and and a pair of DSing Dual Fusion Suits is usually my anti High AV.
IXLoiero95XI wrote:
Vineheart01 wrote: Those 4 markerdrones in your crisis team will not do anything unless the crisis team fails to kill a flier, and they actually snapfired the flier (remember the VT is model-by-model, drones do not get it).
Hang on a second, if the drone controller on the Commander allows the drone use his ballistic skill when firing, then they would also be BS 5 against flier because he shoots at fliers with BS 5because he has skyfire.
Right?
Vineheart01 wrote:Thats a loophole im waiting for a FAQ before i try. Technically yes though, but its a bit of a play on words to get it.
A VT Commander with a DC does not confer that ability to drones, no FAQ required. Skyfire states that the model or weapon possessing the special rule can use their normal ballistic still when firing at Flyers and FMCs. A Drone Controller simply allows the Drones to use the Commanders BS, it in no way shape or form confers the Skyfire Special rule. Therefore the drones are making their BS5 Snap Shots as BS1 just like everyone else. Even a BS5 model is BS1 vs Flyers unless it or its weapon possesses the Skyfire special rule.
This one is pretty cut and dry and doesn't pose any rules conflict. Any potential FAQ to the contrary will be a strict FAQ rule change.
Your right it is pretty clear cut when you explain it like that, I just had heard it can be played like that.
A note on my list, I moved two marker drones from the crisis team to my commander but am still unsure if I should keep them at all or get more pathfinders.
I'm all about SMS on Riptides, I think it works well with the range of the other weapons. I also like the SMS more than any other particular weapon in the game. It is incredible for destroying all sorts of troops, ignore cover and LOS is crazy good. Since it is TL it also doesnt need markerlight buffs and it means your Riptide can stay pretty far away from some of the weaponry that threatens him (MEQ AP1/2 weapons, Shuriken, etc) as well as keeping out of assault range. With the uptick in Xenos armies the SMS really shines. It eats up Eldar/Tau/Daemon troops and those are, IMO, the three best armies.
But I dont think the Fusion is a bad choice, I just don't particularly fear AV13/14 and so far haven't had an issue with it. When I do I may be more tempted to switch to it.
i'll never understand why people hold the SMS's LOS ignoring rule so high.
You cant split fire your own guns anymore, and except a Skyray that took it over gun drones and already used its missiles, you have a better nastier gun already. Ive never ever used my SMS on either riptides or broadsides unless you were in range and weak enough for me to try and get lucky. My IA riptides always have Fusions because that has been a boon for me more than i can count novacharging it to fire twice. HBC takes the SMS because if he fails his nova hes shooting troops anyway.
Theres a guy at my FLGS that will not shut up about it being so strong lol. Oddly enough all the games ive witnessed him play against tau, SMS never came into play anyway.
If you could take them on Crisis suits, even at 20pts a pop, ok that would be badass. 8 S5 AP5 LOS ignoring and ignores cover shots on a mobile platform...that'd be awesome.
They'd also be interesting on a piranha and they definitely are handy on the Devilfish.
But overall, they aren't much use on the Riptide, Hammerhead and Skyray. They just usually don't match the target profile they are attacking (vehicles and infantry with good saves). Broadsides are pretty situational too.
Vineheart01 wrote: i'll never understand why people hold the SMS's LOS ignoring rule so high.
You cant split fire your own guns anymore, and except a Skyray that took it over gun drones and already used its missiles, you have a better nastier gun already.
Ive never ever used my SMS on either riptides or broadsides unless you were in range and weak enough for me to try and get lucky. My IA riptides always have Fusions because that has been a boon for me more than i can count novacharging it to fire twice. HBC takes the SMS because if he fails his nova hes shooting troops anyway.
Theres a guy at my FLGS that will not shut up about it being so strong lol. Oddly enough all the games ive witnessed him play against tau, SMS never came into play anyway.
If you could take them on Crisis suits, even at 20pts a pop, ok that would be badass. 8 S5 AP5 LOS ignoring and ignores cover shots on a mobile platform...that'd be awesome.
I tend to shoot troops more than anything anyway, I tend to play the mission and that is more than likely to be objective based. SMS is particularly good at hunting infantry due to its special rules. I agree that it has better synergy with the HBC than the Ion (I also think it works extremely well with HYMPs on Broadsides), but I don't think the Fusion is particularly good for an Iontide either. You'll have to choose between using the range of the Ion or wanting to shoot the Fusion to get mileage out of it. But, different folks, different strokes. I'm not going to fault anyone for taking Fusion, I think its a good choice too. But I think the SMS is a overlooked and IMO it is more useful weapon, especially in the current meta.
The BIGGEST reason I can think of taking Fusions on my Riptide which I've actually been really really considering is because of AV14. The Riptide would be a sturdy base that can shoot 2x TL Fusion blasts reliably (Usually opp won't wipe it out t1 or 2 or etc. lol) and it can do it's job IF NEEDED.
The reason I say this and I actually magnetized the Fusion Blasters last night (as well as my SMS) is because everytime I run into AV14 I have troubles. I can't reliably take down an AV14 vehicle unless I take a Hammerhead but even then I'd rather have more Skyrayssince ever a Hammerheads 1 shot isn't too reliable at it's job.
Nothing pops AV14 as good as melta and "getting there" with a Riptide is fairly easy with how durable you can make them. FNP, Attaching an Iridium Armor'ed Commander etc.
My other option is 2x Crisis Suits with Fusion Blasters deep striking. lol Not too bad of an option but I like diversity and this unit can pretty much only do 1 thing really well.. pop heavy things.
Edit: Where do I find the ruling for Crisis Suits taking 2x weapons and making them TL? I'm blind I guess and can't find it in the book.
You solve the problem of deepstike fusion suits being a one trick pony by strapping a flamer on them-ran out of heavy targets? go scorch something (or at least threat with it and force a response)
As for putting an SMS on a crisis-you can. but for 25 points, and only once as a signature system. (81 battlesuit) and with some strings attached.
I think they figured out just how notoriously annoying would it be to allow dedicated SMS battlesuits, never need any LoS, can reach far, and you will never ever catch them.
How would Tau go about taking on something like a screamer star or seer star? or is it simply a case of wiping the rest of the army off the board and winning on objectives? I've not had any real issues with any of the other deathstars, like draigo wing or a harlestar, mainly because of cover stripping and the awesomsauce of O'vesa, but two competitive games today saw me struggling versus eldar and daemons. Would allying in Grey knights or Eldar help at all? I know they have some nice toys, but i'm not 100% familiar with the armies and i don't own the codices (yet)
Vineheart01 wrote: i'll never understand why people hold the SMS's LOS ignoring rule so high.
You cant split fire your own guns anymore, and except a Skyray that took it over gun drones and already used its missiles, you have a better nastier gun already.
Ive never ever used my SMS on either riptides or broadsides unless you were in range and weak enough for me to try and get lucky. My IA riptides always have Fusions because that has been a boon for me more than i can count novacharging it to fire twice. HBC takes the SMS because if he fails his nova hes shooting troops anyway.
Theres a guy at my FLGS that will not shut up about it being so strong lol. Oddly enough all the games ive witnessed him play against tau, SMS never came into play anyway.
If you could take them on Crisis suits, even at 20pts a pop, ok that would be badass. 8 S5 AP5 LOS ignoring and ignores cover shots on a mobile platform...that'd be awesome.
I tend to shoot troops more than anything anyway, I tend to play the mission and that is more than likely to be objective based. SMS is particularly good at hunting infantry due to its special rules. I agree that it has better synergy with the HBC than the Ion (I also think it works extremely well with HYMPs on Broadsides), but I don't think the Fusion is particularly good for an Iontide either. You'll have to choose between using the range of the Ion or wanting to shoot the Fusion to get mileage out of it. But, different folks, different strokes. I'm not going to fault anyone for taking Fusion, I think its a good choice too. But I think the SMS is a overlooked and IMO it is more useful weapon, especially in the current meta.
I actually think the HBC has anti-synergy with the SMS, because Nova charging either of the weapons has a similar effect. With the Ion Accelerator, you can Nova charge the SMS to go after troops or the Ion to go after vehicles, providing more versatility.
Supplements are explicitly allowed to ally with the normal codex. The new Space Marines book has a unique one where different "chapters" can ally with each other, allowing two chapters in your army instead of 1 but removing any battle-buddy crap you migh have with other races.
As for the whole nova charging the IA and going after vehicles, i never do that unless i have to. Gets Hot! on a single shot as well as any possible save (some vehicles have invuls or you might not be able to strip cover this time around) can really nerts that idea fast. Then of course its only 1 HP unless you roll a 5+ on the pen result (4+ for open topped). Yeah Ordnance helps pen it but i'd rather plaster a group of marines or termies than try to get lucky to pass a 3+ for the Nova, 2+ for Gets Hot! if you have no TL, hitting the target in the first place, 4+/5+ to pen (AV13/14), and then a 5+ to explode. Unlikely, but possible.
Thats what my HBC riptide is for anyway. Nova charge that main gun and slap a buffmander in there he will rape any vehicle. Ive had him reliably 1shot landraiders. As i mentioned before i keep an IA riptide in case he fails the nova since the buffmander is a waste if he doesnt supercharge the gun.
Vineheart01 wrote: i'll never understand why people hold the SMS's LOS ignoring rule so high.
You cant split fire your own guns anymore, and except a Skyray that took it over gun drones and already used its missiles, you have a better nastier gun already.
Ive never ever used my SMS on either riptides or broadsides unless you were in range and weak enough for me to try and get lucky. My IA riptides always have Fusions because that has been a boon for me more than i can count novacharging it to fire twice. HBC takes the SMS because if he fails his nova hes shooting troops anyway.
Theres a guy at my FLGS that will not shut up about it being so strong lol. Oddly enough all the games ive witnessed him play against tau, SMS never came into play anyway.
If you could take them on Crisis suits, even at 20pts a pop, ok that would be badass. 8 S5 AP5 LOS ignoring and ignores cover shots on a mobile platform...that'd be awesome.
I tend to shoot troops more than anything anyway, I tend to play the mission and that is more than likely to be objective based. SMS is particularly good at hunting infantry due to its special rules. I agree that it has better synergy with the HBC than the Ion (I also think it works extremely well with HYMPs on Broadsides), but I don't think the Fusion is particularly good for an Iontide either. You'll have to choose between using the range of the Ion or wanting to shoot the Fusion to get mileage out of it. But, different folks, different strokes. I'm not going to fault anyone for taking Fusion, I think its a good choice too. But I think the SMS is a overlooked and IMO it is more useful weapon, especially in the current meta.
I actually think the HBC has anti-synergy with the SMS, because Nova charging either of the weapons has a similar effect. With the Ion Accelerator, you can Nova charge the SMS to go after troops or the Ion to go after vehicles, providing more versatility.
Yeah but the redundancy for the HBC/SMS combo isn't a bad thing. I think that the HBC excels in killing infantry, the SMS as well. The Ion may be more versatile but you trade utility for efficiency, IMO it isn't as effective versus infantry (though I think vs certain types of infantry it certainly has more potential, but scatter can be fickle and it relies more on Markerlights to excel).
Automatically Appended Next Post:
IXLoiero95XI wrote: I pose a question.
Do Tau fliers have a place in competitive Tau lists?
I just built my Sunshark Bomber, should be fun to use
I think the Sunshark can be used competitively, so much of the Tau codex is underpriced that I think you can take "less than optimal" units that provide extra utility (though maybe at the cost of efficiency). It has very good mobility, something a lot of Tau units lack.
madtankbloke wrote: How would Tau go about taking on something like a screamer star or seer star? or is it simply a case of wiping the rest of the army off the board and winning on objectives? I've not had any real issues with any of the other deathstars, like draigo wing or a harlestar, mainly because of cover stripping and the awesomsauce of O'vesa, but two competitive games today saw me struggling versus eldar and daemons. Would allying in Grey knights or Eldar help at all? I know they have some nice toys, but i'm not 100% familiar with the armies and i don't own the codices (yet)
I think there are a few ally options that can help quite a bit.
VS. Screamerstar
This deathstar is pretty much invincible, more-so than the Seers and more likely to get their preferred powers. Their shooting is formidable but can be very boom or bust. The other contents of the list will generally be FMCs, Fateweaver and some troops (though i've seen Khorne Dogs, Grinders, Drakes allied in, etc). A big weakness of the deathstar is that it lacks great combat punch. More than anything it is incredibly fast and durable, but it isn't exceedingly good in combat. It also lacks hit and run and attacks above Str. 5. If you ally in Eldar you can grab a Wraithknight. That should buy you quite a bit of time and he provides a nice 14-24" charge radius. He also isn't easy for them to shoot down or remove early in the game. I think the WK is one of the best counters to Screamer lists. You also get access to a Farseer who provides re-rolls to two units, greatly decreasing your dependence on markerlights (a win in my eyes). Best case scenario is that you land Misfortune. Their DTW should only be a 5+, if they happen to fail it, the unit should be decimated by Tau/Eldar firepower.
On the other hand Tau can also access Space Wolves, Grey Knights and Space Marines who all provide their own soft/hard counters. In my opinion Space Marines are the best ally choice due to being Bros of Battle. Tiggy has a very good shot at landing Misfortune. And once again the DTW should only be a 5+. The Thunderfire Cannon can help you attempt to snipe the Grimoire holder. I also think the Buff commander can work quite well with some SM units (Centurions come to mind). Space Wolves give you the Runic Weapon, or you can go really nuts and take Njal. I prefer 1-2 Rune Priests, Jaws in a pod is never a bad thing to have. GK can use Dreadknights, Paladins and the Inquisitorial Henchmen anti-Daemon guy, as well as the Storm Raven's mindstrike missiles (quite potent).
If you don't like allying (and some of this applies even if you do ally) there are still some good options available. Attach your Buff Commander to a Riptide (take HnR and if you ally Farsight take a Earth Caste Riptide for consistent 3++) make them Stubborn and tie up the Screamers and then try to HnR when you need/want to. Take an Ethereal to give out Stubborn and tarpit the Screamers with large squads of Kroot. Go MSU and deny multicharges as well as using reserves to make it harder to kill your troops (works best when going second). Reserve or spread out your shooting units and keep denying multicharges. Make him eat one unit at most a turn. Take the talisman to make it very difficult for him to get off FF and Misfortune.
VS. Seer Council
I think the Seer Council is a tougher match-up (not just for Tau, but in general). I believe the supporting cast is generally going to be superior because it is more reliable and less dependent on luck (FMCs can be awful with bad rewards/powers/grounding checks). Units like the Wraithknight/Serpents are very reliable. Units like Swooping Hawks and Spiders are very good at harassment and can be very tough to kill due to movement shenanigans. Overall I think that even with allies it is going to be a tough match-up because of Hit and Run and the debuffs they have available. Generally I see it run as either Eldar/DE with Baron, maybe Grisly Trophies. The other version i've seen is Tau with Buff Commander, Riptide and Kroot.
If you ally in Eldar you can get access to a Farseer or Eldrad. Eldrad gives a better shot at Misfortune but is also pricier and most likely less efficient if you cant really make use of his other rules. Jetbikes/Serpent riding troops help you out maneuver the Council, at least more-so than Fire Warriors/Kroot.
With SM I think Tiggy helps quite a bit. Centurions can do a fair bit of damage to the Council if they have ignore cover (also makes the Eldar player consider if the +1 armor save is worth it). Runic Weapons are great and probably superior to relying on Misfortune. 5+ DTW with Fortune isn't easy to get through. GK can bring Paladins which do pretty well against Seers in my experience.
Generally vs a deathstar like this i'd advise to play cagey, attempt to go second (unless the board is bare and you can definitely alpha strike). Reserve as much as possible, use SMS to take down the annoying Jetbikes. Bubble wrap your objectives/troops and keep in mind HnR. Do not pour firepower into either deathstar if you haven't debuffed them.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Ohh and try to get Scrier's Gaze, absolutely amazing if going second vs Deathstars (and most other armies). Can give you a good shot at keeping half your army off the board for half the game.
Vineheart01 wrote: i'll never understand why people hold the SMS's LOS ignoring rule so high.
You cant split fire your own guns anymore, and except a Skyray that took it over gun drones and already used its missiles, you have a better nastier gun already.
Ive never ever used my SMS on either riptides or broadsides unless you were in range and weak enough for me to try and get lucky. My IA riptides always have Fusions because that has been a boon for me more than i can count novacharging it to fire twice. HBC takes the SMS because if he fails his nova hes shooting troops anyway.
Theres a guy at my FLGS that will not shut up about it being so strong lol. Oddly enough all the games ive witnessed him play against tau, SMS never came into play anyway.
If you could take them on Crisis suits, even at 20pts a pop, ok that would be badass. 8 S5 AP5 LOS ignoring and ignores cover shots on a mobile platform...that'd be awesome.
Alot of the large tournaments have started to heavily incorporate BLOS terrain, which makes hiding things like minimum EJB squads and small units of kroot/cultists/deamons super easy. My NOVA list had alot of sms (5, but 2 were constantly being novacharged, so more like 7) and it was invaluable. Granted I have 4 MCs, an onager gauntlet, and farsight to punch armor if I need to, and I'm absolutely not afraid to get those into close combat.
What are you more experienced generals thoughts on the best allies for Tau that compliment or further make us more redundant and thus more durable? I'm torn between Eldar vs Tau Enclave.
Vineheart01 wrote: he mentioned signature system so it wouldnt matter about that faq.
Also is that the Farsight thingie for it? i dont see anything about that in my tau dex (dont have farsight)
Its from IA3 2ED, the 81 battlesuit.
As for the tau airplanes question-I highly doubt any except the IA3 barracuda would ever be competitive, the codex ones are just confused and don't know their jobs, and the remora is too much of a trololol option to just mess with people without getting much done because he is with too much defensive skills compared to offensive skills.
The baracuda on the other hand, is a ionhead that put on an engine too big and a few sidearms instead of armor and now he is a supersonic aircraft in FA. your guy if you ever wanted to play 6 hammerheads under 2000 points. they will also work well in a non-fort tau build, when used by a shrewed commander he can serve as a superior razorshark, and actually do his job as a strike fighter, because the razor got the air support side covered (and a bit better then the cudda), but not the ground suppression part. (and the sunshark figured out the part about guarding itself from enemy jets better then he god the hand of actually bombing x_x)
Way i see the fliers, overcosted anti infantry and not even that great at it. Bomber has a S5 AP5 pi plate that has a chance to not be available every turn on top of the usual burst/SMS option. For the cost, hell no. That bomb doesnt even ignore cover or is barrage either btw (unless im missing a Bomb general rule that does that)
Fighter is pointless. It costs more, is squishier, isnt around all game, and tries to do the same role as the Ionhead. Shorter AND weaker gun for more cost on a squishier platform waddafuq?
i wont even joke with those fliers. Both are slowed.
Nope, the bomb rule just means you do it in movement phase, it scatters only 1d6, you don't have to shoot the same target, and you cannot flat out after using one.
One would expect them to be somewhat like barrage, considering they literally drop from the sky.
And the fighter...he is not a wonnabe ionhead, he wonnabe everything.
Tiny bit ionhead, tiny bit quad gun, tiny bit air superiority, tiny bit supression. it just does not work.
Take the barracuda over them, at least that one packs the guns so he can actually follow his irrational attempt to get everything done himself. he is just a razorshark+1, but just requires more thought when used for his lack of shot arcs.
I think that actually explains a lot. It's like someone who isn't familiar with the game wanted to make something that's trying to be decent at a lot of roles and super easy to use since the weapons can rotate for decent firing arcs.
The one bonus that the fighter has over the bomber is that while both their large blasts suffer if you roll a 1 before or after (effectively both have Gets Hot), only the fighter will continue to have use for it's main weapon.
What are you more experienced generals thoughts on the best allies for Tau that compliment or further make us more redundant and thus more durable?
I'm torn between Eldar vs Tau Enclave.
Eldar:
-Fast troops for grabbing far Obj late game or contesting
-Great stable platform for S10 guns (Wraightknight) Which IMHO is a better choice than a Hammerhead if wanting to take some S10 firepower
-Less reliance on Markerlights with a Farseer that can TL your guys. You can hop your buff commander more now that you can put Guide on your Crisis Missile Squad or Nova'd RipTides
-Wave Serpents hahah, they are so good
Tau Enclave:
-More Tau shooting! Cheap and effective!
-Can make use of Marker Lights
-Crisis Suit squad I almost always take (Missile Pod squad) can now be troops which for my personal lists is a huge help. I usually have Missile Crisis Suits with a Buffmander Tanking + Marker Drones
Really that's up to you. As you've listed they both have their upsides and as allies they don't really have any drawbacks if made right.
Taking Eldar there is no tax as they have some good troop options and a waveserpent or jetbikes could fit in well with any army.
Taking Enclave you're forced to take a unit of crisis suits, but those can easily be worked in to fit in good with the rest of the army.
It's more along the lines of what you're interested in getting and what you want to play. I already have the models I want/need to field enclave so I started collecting eldar to give me something new to try.
On the list building part, interceptor support system can help.
On the field-first check out what is in the pods, and try to figure what they aim for (for example, melta teams aim at tanks) and what can kill them
Then, deploy in rings. so that the rings push the pods further away due to no landing zone, and deploy the things that they will likely want to kill and can threaten them in the hard-to-reach places.
if possible- doit with rear armor facing impossile-to-hit angles. (for example, your ionheads should be protected against AT vets, but we up front against deathwing)
Try to put interceptors in a place they could shoot at likely landing zones. unless the interceptor unit is really good and you want to protect it, deploy it in the utmost ring, as it might as well take the fire-it wont be able to shoot on your turn anyway, giving them 2 turns to kill it before it shoots the second time, they don't need to rush that unit, they do need to rush the ones who didn't intercept.
Take advantage of terrain, place your rings in an area that gives you good cover from incoming fire, or next to hazardous terrain they might fall into (remember-if its hazardous but not impassable-they might scatter there. mysterious lakes have a high chance to turn out to be really nasty to whoever walks in, and forests are not much better. if you got some strange unique terrain like a lava lake or the like that is extremely dangerous-even better. nothing lethal though, lethal is considered impassible so they wont scatter there, it can be used like a "wall" though.)
Remember that in a drop pod army, more often then not the first turn is everything. if they cant do serious damage to targets of importance on the first drop, they get in trouble fast.
i find pod armies are easy enough to counter... just a few things:
1. dont let them place the pod on top of your unit. its got to be placed in a legal deepstrike posistion. and yes, they CAN mishap.
2. pods generally transport infantry or dreads. and only 50% of the pods arrive first turn. castle up in a corner, and make it impossible for them to surround you, then counter with alot of high str, low AP blasts and shots. plasma suits and riptides work awsome here. even salvosides can dish a pretty hard hurt on a sm infantry unit.
3. a pod list often relies on "pinning you" in place and shooting you up. get out of the kill zone, by reserving as much stuff as you legally can, and deepstriking it elsewhere into the battle. pods then have a choice: spread out and get weaker, or cluster up and try to kill off what they can. either way, when you come in, - pick targets, isolate and destroy them focus on sterngaurd/grav/dreads first - all of wich can be dealt with by your fast moving riptides and crisis.
4. don't let the pod player cheat with his pod placement.
the rules only say if you would land in a hazard that would cause a mishap, reduce scatter to avoid. it does not allow you to increase scatter. (or travel in a diffirent direction) - making sure you deploy in a way that prevents pods from landing in the middile of your forces, and makes them either drop mid table or away from you to avoid the mishap goes a long way in mitigating the alpha strike.
DarthSpader wrote: i find pod armies are easy enough to counter... just a few things:
1. dont let them place the pod on top of your unit. its got to be placed in a legal deepstrike posistion. and yes, they CAN mishap.
2. pods generally transport infantry or dreads. and only 50% of the pods arrive first turn. castle up in a corner, and make it impossible for them to surround you, then counter with alot of high str, low AP blasts and shots. plasma suits and riptides work awsome here. even salvosides can dish a pretty hard hurt on a sm infantry unit.
3. a pod list often relies on "pinning you" in place and shooting you up. get out of the kill zone, by reserving as much stuff as you legally can, and deepstriking it elsewhere into the battle. pods then have a choice: spread out and get weaker, or cluster up and try to kill off what they can. either way, when you come in, - pick targets, isolate and destroy them focus on sterngaurd/grav/dreads first - all of wich can be dealt with by your fast moving riptides and crisis.
4. don't let the pod player cheat with his pod placement.
the rules only say if you would land in a hazard that would cause a mishap, reduce scatter to avoid. it does not allow you to increase scatter. (or travel in a diffirent direction) - making sure you deploy in a way that prevents pods from landing in the middile of your forces, and makes them either drop mid table or away from you to avoid the mishap goes a long way in mitigating the alpha strike.
The bolded isn't correct, the pods can be placed on top of your units, however they will then mishap unless they scatter far enough to avoid the 1" bubble.
I would say that kroot are your friend. Use them to surround your more valuable units and push the enemy back by denying the pods space to land. Spreading out a la point four above can be a good plan, but reserving too much against a full pod army can lead to your on table forces being destroyed before you can get your reserves on.
Does the farsight from farsight enclave have a warlord trait or does it default back to: through boldness victory?
I notice a lot of people who make a riptide death star put farsight into the deathstar, which is okay as he protects the unit in cc, but I was thinking what if you made a unit of 3 crisis suits with two 2 plasma, flamer and one 2 plasma, retro vector trusters? You could make a nice little deep striking unit that pumps out 14 plasma shots, or 10 plasma 2 flamers. The unit is scoring and can reliably beat most troops in cc and has hit and run.
Yes he keeps his warlord trait. And yes you have the option to DS him with that nasty unit.
The reason people put him in the star is for wound allocation and his high initiative. Combo that with a buff commander and his VRT and the unit can survive CC and hit and run easily.
DarthSpader wrote: i find pod armies are easy enough to counter... just a few things:
1. dont let them place the pod on top of your unit. its got to be placed in a legal deepstrike posistion. and yes, they CAN mishap.
2. pods generally transport infantry or dreads. and only 50% of the pods arrive first turn. castle up in a corner, and make it impossible for them to surround you, then counter with alot of high str, low AP blasts and shots. plasma suits and riptides work awsome here. even salvosides can dish a pretty hard hurt on a sm infantry unit.
3. a pod list often relies on "pinning you" in place and shooting you up. get out of the kill zone, by reserving as much stuff as you legally can, and deepstriking it elsewhere into the battle. pods then have a choice: spread out and get weaker, or cluster up and try to kill off what they can. either way, when you come in, - pick targets, isolate and destroy them focus on sterngaurd/grav/dreads first - all of wich can be dealt with by your fast moving riptides and crisis.
4. don't let the pod player cheat with his pod placement.
the rules only say if you would land in a hazard that would cause a mishap, reduce scatter to avoid. it does not allow you to increase scatter. (or travel in a diffirent direction) - making sure you deploy in a way that prevents pods from landing in the middile of your forces, and makes them either drop mid table or away from you to avoid the mishap goes a long way in mitigating the alpha strike.
The bolded isn't correct, the pods can be placed on top of your units, however they will then mishap unless they scatter far enough to avoid the 1" bubble.
The bolded part IS correct.
A deepstrike must first be placed in a place where you can actually place the model, furthermore, even if the model COULD stand on impassible terrain (such as jetpacks), you STILL can't place the deepstrike origin there.
Arent blood angels the only ones with Dpods that have that no mishap thing unless they go off the board? Everyone else mishaps on terrain as normal (moving for units)?
So I was thinking about o'vesa and all the things you can do with him. Obviously joining him to another riptide is good but I wans wondering what you guys think about joining him to a unit of 3 crisis suits with missile pods. The unit will be T6 because of the shielded missile drones and can pump out 16 s7 ap4 shots plus a s8 ap2 large blast.
Any unit that gets free/extra hits or has a scaling weapon (which generally means it retains its potency whilst maybe not ID T4) is fantastic. This thing gets multiple hits on dual blast weapons (occasionally will bump itself up to quad blast weapons).
Does it need any support? Markerlights? Support commanders? Dedicated Anti-Air (as it can't even throw haywire grenades, gawd!)
Twice the cost as the ionhead which i already adore, but is WAY more durable, doesnt have gets hot issues, and puts out either equal or double the pi plates (for the cost). These pi plates can even dish out 8-12 wounds depending on the type of target hit, instead of 4. All for 260pts base?
lambsandlions wrote: So I was thinking about o'vesa and all the things you can do with him. Obviously joining him to another riptide is good but I wans wondering what you guys think about joining him to a unit of 3 crisis suits with missile pods. The unit will be T6 because of the shielded missile drones and can pump out 16 s7 ap4 shots plus a s8 ap2 large blast.
Until your opponent kills one of the Missile Drones with a DSing unit or Precision shot, then uses their entire army to nuke your now T4 unit. The unit also suffers from assault problems. Challenge, take no damage from the WS1 O'Vesa, use the rest of your squad to kill drones and suits, sweep.
thejughead wrote: Zagman is right. the star is nothing without Farsight, Tau Buff Commander with VRT, and Commander with Fusion Blades.
I agree but I dont think you need the 2nd Commander with Fusion Blades.
I think Farsight, Buffmander, Ovesa, Riptide is all that's needed to make this Deathstar reach it's potential without scaling down after adding more and more to it. That will give you more points towards other things in your army to support/ cover weaknesses.
I'm really thinking about trying it out...but 2x more RipTides... ouch for the $. But it'd be wicked fun!
DarthSpader wrote: no they can not. show me in the rules where a drop a pod or any deep striking unit is allowed to be placed on top of another one.
when you put a deep striking unit on the table it has to be placed in a posistion thats not within 1: of the enemy, and not in impassable terrain.
First, place one model from the unit anywhere on the table, in the position where you would like it to arrive, and roll for scatter to determine the model's final position.
pg. 36 BRB first dot point under arriving by deep strike.
It says to put it where you want, so too bad if you opponents is an idiot and gets himself a mishap.
But on the other hand it clearly states you are to place the model on the table, and you cannot physically place your drop pod on the table if it is sitting on top of models.
so I would probably allow within 1" but not on your guys.
Just got my far sight enclave book in... I was told before you need to take commander far sight to take ovesa for the ovesa death star. Where does it say that in the book? I can't find it for the life of me.
Also for smaller point games is commander far sight really needed in the death star? What does he really contribute. Doesn't feel like much other than some decent cc power.
I'm thinking of running a death star that has some fat cut out like this, barring I can run ovesa without far sight.
syypher wrote: Just got my far sight enclave book in... I was told before you need to take commander far sight to take ovesa for the ovesa death star. Where does it say that in the book? I can't find it for the life of me.
Also for smaller point games is commander far sight really needed in the death star? What does he really contribute. Doesn't feel like much other than some decent cc power.
I'm thinking of running a death star that has some fat cut out like this, barring I can run ovesa without far sight.
Farsight is required as an HQ to access the Eight, of which O'vesa is a member of. or you can take a big bodyguard unit instead and have a farsight bomb, but thats a different deathstar entirely.
What farsight brings to the O'vesa Star is some much needed Close combat potential, riptides and buffmanders are less than stellar, and he is another IC, meaning he can eat challenges, and allows you to play wound allocation tricks. you can potentially take 14 wounds and not have to remove anyone, AND he has I5 which means you can survive a sweeping advance, and even sweep fairly reliably.
Without farsight the unit becomes really really vulnerable to assaults, even a non dedicated assault unit can beat it down. Since you have to take farsight, the best place for him is the deathstar
syypher wrote: Just got my far sight enclave book in... I was told before you need to take commander far sight to take ovesa for the ovesa death star. Where does it say that in the book? I can't find it for the life of me.
Also for smaller point games is commander far sight really needed in the death star? What does he really contribute. Doesn't feel like much other than some decent cc power.
I'm thinking of running a death star that has some fat cut out like this, barring I can run ovesa without far sight.
Farsight is required as an HQ to access the Eight, of which O'vesa is a member of. or you can take a big bodyguard unit instead and have a farsight bomb, but thats a different deathstar entirely.
What farsight brings to the O'vesa Star is some much needed Close combat potential, riptides and buffmanders are less than stellar, and he is another IC, meaning he can eat challenges, and allows you to play wound allocation tricks. you can potentially take 14 wounds and not have to remove anyone, AND he has I5 which means you can survive a sweeping advance, and even sweep fairly reliably.
Without farsight the unit becomes really really vulnerable to assaults, even a non dedicated assault unit can beat it down. Since you have to take farsight, the best place for him is the deathstar
But what about 6x Smash S10 AP2 attacks the RipTides have. And the Onager Gauntlet attack from the Buffmander. I think they can handle any non-dedicated assault squad pretty easily still? Or am I thinking this wrong.
Problem with that is theyre all WS2 so if theyre against even moderate melee guys,like bikernobz, they hit on 5s. WS5 is when they start having severe issues, and WS5 is fairly common on units actually meant to be in melee. WS6+ yea just give up lol.
Also the initiative. Buffmander is I3. Bikernobz and MANz are probably the only thing you'll have to worry about that WONT out initiative you, but then the problem is "Can i kill them all before the PKs swing..." lol. Yes its rather rare for any melee star to wipe out a couple of riptides before they can swing, but its not impossible. I have had it happen to be before with random unit on bikes that caught my buffmander + HBC combo lol.
Thats Assuming you got the charge for the +1 attack on smash, thats 6 Smash attacks from the 2 riptides (half then add bonus attacks, per FAQ in brb) and the gauntlet punch. IF you actually land them all, yea pain ensures. Gl with that though especially hitting on 5s lol.
Vineheart01 wrote: Problem with that is theyre all WS2 so if theyre against even moderate melee guys,like bikernobz, they hit on 5s. WS5 is when they start having severe issues, and WS5 is fairly common on units actually meant to be in melee. WS6+ yea just give up lol.
Also the initiative. Buffmander is I3. Bikernobz and MANz are probably the only thing you'll have to worry about that WONT out initiative you, but then the problem is "Can i kill them all before the PKs swing..." lol.
Yes its rather rare for any melee star to wipe out a couple of riptides before they can swing, but its not impossible. I have had it happen to be before with random unit on bikes that caught my buffmander + HBC combo lol.
Thats Assuming you got the charge for the +1 attack on smash, thats 6 Smash attacks from the 2 riptides (half then add bonus attacks, per FAQ in brb) and the gauntlet punch. IF you actually land them all, yea pain ensures. Gl with that though especially hitting on 5s lol.
How many bikernobz are we talking about? I don't play orks but aren't Nobz on bikes with PKs like 70pts each? They are only t5 w2 sv4+ 5++ (if they are near a force field) right? Shouldn't a unit of broadsides be able to deal with most the nobz before they cross the board?
Against orks, they don't have monsterous creatures and they usually don't have many vehilces, so you will be giving your riptides stubborn most of the time. With stubborn you are not likely to fail a ld 10 moral check, and you can hit and run on with I4 thanks to the shielded missile drones.
Really unless something has a TH or a PK or an instant death weapon T6 Sv2+ is too much to deal with. The ability to make the unit stubborn if you feel an assault coming also helps a lot because the only way the unit is actually dying is if they get run down. So you are just better off keeping farsight out of the unit and attaching him to some crisis suits who can make use of his deep striking, plasma and combat weapon.
Vineheart01 wrote: 5++ (if they are near a force field) right? Shouldn't a unit of broadsides be able to deal with most the nobz before they cross the board?
yeah the nobz don't stand a chance. also they have 5+ cover save, and no invuln.
syypher wrote: Just got my far sight enclave book in... I was told before you need to take commander far sight to take ovesa for the ovesa death star. Where does it say that in the book? I can't find it for the life of me.
Also for smaller point games is commander far sight really needed in the death star? What does he really contribute. Doesn't feel like much other than some decent cc power.
I'm thinking of running a death star that has some fat cut out like this, barring I can run ovesa without far sight.
thejughead wrote: Zagman is right. the star is nothing without Farsight, Tau Buff Commander with VRT, and Commander with Fusion Blades.
I agree but I dont think you need the 2nd Commander with Fusion Blades.
I think Farsight, Buffmander, Ovesa, Riptide is all that's needed to make this Deathstar reach it's potential without scaling down after adding more and more to it. That will give you more points towards other things in your army to support/ cover weaknesses.
I'm really thinking about trying it out...but 2x more RipTides... ouch for the $. But it'd be wicked fun!
I like to take em for that added punch it also allows you to sacrifice a drone to up majority weapon skill to 4. I usually only run this commander for 2000 points.
Vineheart01 wrote: 5++ (if they are near a force field) right? Shouldn't a unit of broadsides be able to deal with most the nobz before they cross the board?
yeah the nobz don't stand a chance. also they have 5+ cover save, and no invuln.
Too bad they don't have access to 5++ and FNP.........
syypher wrote: Just got my far sight enclave book in... I was told before you need to take commander far sight to take ovesa for the ovesa death star. Where does it say that in the book? I can't find it for the life of me.
Also for smaller point games is commander far sight really needed in the death star? What does he really contribute. Doesn't feel like much other than some decent cc power.
I'm thinking of running a death star that has some fat cut out like this, barring I can run ovesa without far sight.
Farsight is required as an HQ to access the Eight, of which O'vesa is a member of. or you can take a big bodyguard unit instead and have a farsight bomb, but thats a different deathstar entirely.
What farsight brings to the O'vesa Star is some much needed Close combat potential, riptides and buffmanders are less than stellar, and he is another IC, meaning he can eat challenges, and allows you to play wound allocation tricks. you can potentially take 14 wounds and not have to remove anyone, AND he has I5 which means you can survive a sweeping advance, and even sweep fairly reliably.
Without farsight the unit becomes really really vulnerable to assaults, even a non dedicated assault unit can beat it down. Since you have to take farsight, the best place for him is the deathstar
But what about 6x Smash S10 AP2 attacks the RipTides have. And the Onager Gauntlet attack from the Buffmander. I think they can handle any non-dedicated assault squad pretty easily still? Or am I thinking this wrong.
Assault with Riptides and a Buffmander are all last resort options. You will lost, there are just so many units that can at the least tarpit you, worst sweep you. WS2/1 at I2 is terrible. Smashing just makes it worse. And the turn you assault with your Buffmander, you need to PEN Stubborn, which means no shooting with Tank Hunter or Monster Hunter that turn.
Vineheart01 wrote: 5++ (if they are near a force field) right? Shouldn't a unit of broadsides be able to deal with most the nobz before they cross the board?
yeah the nobz don't stand a chance. also they have 5+ cover save, and no invuln.
Too bad they don't have access to 5++ and FNP.........
2W T5 models that are fast as hell and have 4+ armor, 4+ cover, 5++ invul, and FNP. If a bikernob unit is missing one of these, either the player missed a rule or is a moron for not buying one. Bikes come with both the 4+ stock, 5++ for 5pts extra as a failsafe.
Bikernobz are literally the only thing i see even having a CHANCE against newtau when i compare my codexes. And thats relying on 5++/FNP luck since only the Hammerhead or Smashing riptides can paste them, but everything and their mother will pen and ignore cover on them because theyre insane compared to the rest of what those markerlights could be hitting (like lootas, which are still not as strong without ZOMG luck on hits).
Also, yes they would paste them if you attacked them. But realize this: i am WS5, you are WS2 (Commander is WS4 i think, so hes fine). Your 2 riptides are hitting your 4 smash attacks on 5s (cause there is no way in hell you are getting the charge on me for bonus attacks lol). IF you hit one, i make an invul save. I pass, nothing happens WEEE - i fail, oh look one of my four bikernobz without PKs that are in front and hella cheaper just went splat...o well...
IF the bikernobz get to the riptides, riptides are toast. With the way the codexes are right now, i'd be surprised if my orks got past turn 2 against newtau though. Never played them against each other, but like i said i own both I'd be surprised if i didnt lose any nobz in that fight, but thats how they are with any strong puncher. They lose a few but kill big in the process. If i lost more than 1 then i'd be shocked.
Do they? Can't really tell if this is sarcasm.
He was smacktalking the guy that said they have a 5+ cover and no invul. All ork bikes have a 4+ cover by default and REGULAR bikes dont have 5++.
Too bad they don't have access to 5++ and FNP.........
Do they? Can't really tell if this is sarcasm.
It is sarcasm. Like I said, I don't know the ork book very well, only what I have played against, but skimming through it I notice nobz can take a painboy for 30pts and upgrade to cyberarmor for 5pts each. So they do get 5++ and FNP pretty easily, but cost 75pts per model so a unit of 5 is going to cost 400pts. It will take more than one turn for them to get into charge range and tau shouldn't have a problem shooting them down. A single nob is only going to do about 1 wound to O'vesa on the charge, even less if you nova charge before hand for a 3++ (which you can safely do thanks to the earth caste pilot array.) So just play it smart and take stubborn beforehand and you should be fine.
Thats if you take a PK on them. The unit i run is 7 strong with 2 pks. It costs me 445. Minus the boss of course. Yes its expensive, but i still take them because the state the codex is in right now we kind of have to have them. Everything else is countered without even trying as of late, bikernobz at least can have a bit of luck favor them since they never - ever - simply disappear from the table. You WILL focus the hell out of them to kill them. i COULD shave 30pts by cutting the kombi scochas and bigchoppas, i dont because i find the few times i leave them out i really...really wish i didnt lol
I have 4 models without PKs and not a painboy purely to soak up the fire (2 slugga choppas and 2 Bigchoppas w/ Kombi Scorchas). They dish out plenty of damage on their own as well, but ultimately theyre a meatshield for the PKs. Two nob PKs + my boss all hitting on 3s are going to wreck that riptide unit.
My friend tried a full nob squads, 4+ cover, 4+ armour, 5++, 5+FNP & a warboss to distribute wounds via LOS & to tank high str wounds...
He could've played it better but by just denying him good/any charge targets and pouring high quality firepower, they melted. I shot 50+ firewarrior shots at the squads plus a handful of markerlights and did nothing. However a missileside squad, some more missile pod suits and I gutted the squad.
Deepstruck two dual-flamer fusion solosuits behind some battlewagons (one mishapped for the greater good); a lucky TLfusion riptide shot opened up a battlewagon, the dual flamer suit cleared the boyz. We called it there.
I mean it can work but if one army has the hard counter (high strength, RoF now that bikes are T5 base and ignores cover), its Tau.
Hence why its literally a luck fest for orks vs newtau. Tau casually counter orks without even trying lol. Any well-rounded Tau list will deal with numbers AND moderate saves easily (Also low armor, since BW are only high armor on a very small arc that Tau can get around easily). Tau only have an issue against a LOT of high toughness (Mark of Nurgle is annoying as feth for that) or an entire army of speedy assaulty units. Our castle works against 1-2 units, not a whole army lol. To beat a good tau player takes more tactic than any other race because if you just throw models at them you will lose lol.
Orks literally have nothing but 5+ luck though. If i faced a tau army and i had a green tide or a trukk list i'd just giv eup right there lol.
How are you guys dealing with AV13/14? Everytime I run across AV13/14 I have a really hard time.... Nova Charging my IA just doesn't cut it. And the Fusion Blasters on a RipTide I'd prefer to keep as SMS. I really don't like my RipTide getting close to anything thats AV14 and more importantly what they're carrying.
My only fairly reliable AV13 so far is my Buffmander giving Tank Hunter to the Crisis Team I run with 2x Missile Pods each. Generally pretty good chance at taking out a single AV13 if my Broadsides help a bit.
Pretty much fusion blasters. Hammerhead is lacking some buffs to be viable at tank busting (or too expensive when he gets it) and right novacharged IA doesnt really help. It has crazy odds with a buffmander giving him tankhunter but i still dont like it becausse its a single shot.
Ordnance and Tank Hunter work together. Ordnance = roll 2 dice, take highest ... tankhunter = reroll attempts to pen .... so now you reroll 2 dice take the highest.
Only other means i know of that works is an HBC riptide with buffmander. Nova charged HBC with buffmander wrecks vehicles - just keep something nearby to benefit from him should the nova fail in the movement phase.
Vineheart01 wrote: Pretty much fusion blasters. Hammerhead is lacking some buffs to be viable at tank busting (or too expensive when he gets it) and right novacharged IA doesnt really help. It has crazy odds with a buffmander giving him tankhunter but i still dont like it becausse its a single shot.
Ordnance and Tank Hunter work together. Ordnance = roll 2 dice, take highest ... tankhunter = reroll attempts to pen .... so now you reroll 2 dice take the highest.
Only other means i know of that works is an HBC riptide with buffmander. Nova charged HBC with buffmander wrecks vehicles - just keep something nearby to benefit from him should the nova fail in the movement phase.
The HBC Riptide- you're talking about a Farsight Enclave Riptide with the Earth Caste Pilot Array? Adding a Buffmander means you're running dual force org or ally with Tau, right?
Vineheart01 wrote: Pretty much fusion blasters. Hammerhead is lacking some buffs to be viable at tank busting (or too expensive when he gets it) and right novacharged IA doesnt really help. It has crazy odds with a buffmander giving him tankhunter but i still dont like it becausse its a single shot.
Ordnance and Tank Hunter work together. Ordnance = roll 2 dice, take highest ... tankhunter = reroll attempts to pen .... so now you reroll 2 dice take the highest.
Only other means i know of that works is an HBC riptide with buffmander. Nova charged HBC with buffmander wrecks vehicles - just keep something nearby to benefit from him should the nova fail in the movement phase.
The HBC Riptide- you're talking about a Farsight Enclave Riptide with the Earth Caste Pilot Array? Adding a Buffmander means you're running dual force org or ally with Tau, right?
Either run Tau, or FE with allied Tau. The ECPA on an HBC Riptides is brutal, but if you are willing to risk failing Nova's the stock HBC Riptide can do pretty well.
For instance, a Nova Charged HBC with allied BuffCommander deals an average of 2.7 Pens on AV12 without Markerlight Support. 3.5 Pens with Markerlight Support. It can effectively wreck a Wave Serpent a Turn thanks to Tank Hunter.
Without, it can still be effective, but it is far from an Anti AV12/13/14 solution dealing 1 Pen to AV12. The HBC is better with a VT for AA, it lacks the AP punch to drop heavier targets without a Buffmander for Tank Hunter.
Fusion Suits are still the most viable way of taking out Armor, I DS two with a Twinlinked Fusion Blaster/Fusion Blaster. Its the best High AV option by var. Even Longstrike is lacking due to only having a single Shot.
Nova Charging an IA Riptide really isn't an effective threat. The Nova is unreliable and get Hot can ruin your chances. Though, I have used the Nova Charged IA with Buffmander to hit multiple DE vehicles in one shot, works great if though deployment and Jet Pack moves you can create a traffic jam.
No, the HBC is the stock gun for the normal riptide. Buffmander is a normal tau thing. i dont even have the FE book yet.
Also, the HBC is an HP stripper. Without the nova it falls back on killing light vehicles or infantry but if it novas it can reliably take out landraiders a turn with buffmander help. Its not trying to pen AV13/14, its trying to wreck it with 12 S6 Rending shots.
This is because 12 shots with reroll hits and tankhunter. Every rending on a D2+ is a glance. I have taken land raiders from full to dead with this thing multiple times. And because i have a buffmander on it i put VT on it too for AA purposes, but not interceptor because its drastically weaker without buffmander. This thing is nasty with a buffmander. Only drawback is it IS expensive and without nova is pointless, so i run something nearby for the buffmander to jump to in case he fails it at the START of a movement phase (giving me time to jump groups)
Vineheart01 wrote: No, the HBC is the stock gun for the normal riptide. Buffmander is a normal tau thing. i dont even have the FE book yet.
Also, the HBC is an HP stripper. Without the nova it falls back on killing light vehicles or infantry but if it novas it can reliably take out landraiders a turn with buffmander help. Its not trying to pen AV13/14, its trying to wreck it with 12 S6 Rending shots.
This is because 12 shots with reroll hits and tankhunter. Every rending on a D2+ is a glance. I have taken land raiders from full to dead with this thing multiple times. And because i have a buffmander on it i put VT on it too for AA purposes, but not interceptor because its drastically weaker without buffmander. This thing is nasty with a buffmander. Only drawback is it IS expensive and without nova is pointless, so i run something nearby for the buffmander to jump to in case he fails it at the START of a movement phase (giving me time to jump groups)
It takes on average two turns to strip the HP off of a Land Raider. Also, you need a 2 on a D3 to Glance, and a 3 on a D3 to Pen. ~1,8HP/Turn. 2.4HP/Turn with Markerlight Support.
Vs AV13 it averages 2.7-3.5 HP/Turn which is much much better and wrecks AV13 easily.
Ya if the HBC could take out a LR a turn with any sense of reliability my single Crisis Suits wouldn't need their magnetized Fusion Blasters! They'd be all Missile Pods!!! haha
I run fusion everywhere. I've always got two Skyrays and two broadsides so I have SMS lots of places too!
Skyfire fusion weaponry, to me, seems highly underrated. As Tau, you have a few spare markerlights in most armies - that means you don't have to pay the earth for redundancy (multiple weapons or twin-linked) to get fusion suits for ground targets. I've found two flamer + fusion suits amazing.
Tbh even though a the Skyfire support system is expensive; I've got a IA/Fusion riptide with EWO & Skyfire, 2 skyrays and a dual MP suit with skyfire. Even if my meta is flyer heavy, I am only spending 40pts on dedicated AA weaponary (unlike a C:SM Stalker, which, against ground targets snap fires, all for 75pts!)
Great thing in thye new codex: no need for Broadsides if ou dont want em. Dont need Riptides if you dont want em. you can play so many different lists. fun.
Jancoran wrote: Great thing in thye new codex: no need for Broadsides if ou dont want em. Dont need Riptides if you dont want em. you can play so many different lists. fun.
Agreed! This is one of the reasons I love Tau so much. You can be just as competitive (to a degree depending on your opponents) and run almost anything you want and still rock!
I just won a recent semi-competitive event 1st place and I didn't run a single RipTide. My friends were surprised I wasn't bringing any. Crisis Suits, Broadsides and Skyrays FTW
Back on topic... if I want to be able to kill armor save 2+ stuff/high AV vehicles I guess the 2x Fusion Blaster Crisis Suits are the answer based on what most of you guys said... I struggle a lot with AV13/14 so I think this would cover my bases pretty well and make my TAC list more well rounded. Have you guys had better luck running them in singles with 2x Fusion Blasters or squads of 2x with 2x Fusion Blasters each? I can see the squad of 2x making better use of the Marker Lights once I've got them on a Land Raider or something...
My standard Crisis configuration would come down to:
2X optimised suits - for example, 2 suits with 2 Plasma rifles each.
1X Fusion Suit - 2 Fusion blasters, Target lock.
Throw in drones as necessary.
My Crisis team has 3 TL Fusion and 3 flamers in it with one shield drone. It never fails to find usefulness in any fight and they tend to do more than their share of damage. Good times.
What about thoughts on EWO on RipTides? Burst or IA loadouts?
I know it's just 5 pts but correct me if I'm wrong, you are firing your interceptor guns at BS1 right? So you still need 6's to hit. Then you can't fire that gun during your next shooting phase. Or am I doing this wrong and you should be firing it at your RipTides regular BS?
If you are firing at regular BS I can see how it'd be awesome for 5pts but I'm unclear on this...and no direct access to the rulebook right now.
Interceptor is basically an early shooting phase for any model/gun with interceptor, and prevents that gun from shooting in your following shooting phase. Outside that, its the same thing. Unless the rule they are benefiting from says "Only this phase" or in the case of buffmander "Does not work in interceptor/overwatch shooting" then any rules are still applied. I believe all the Tau once-a-game warlord buffs are entire turns, so they still apply. Riptide nova charges are there until the begining of your movement phase, which you declare to charge or not again. Therefore the supergun if you took it is still there and you fire it at BS3.
I always take EWO on IA riptides because if someone deepstrikes i got a pi plate waiting for that bubble of flesh to land. People nark on BS3 blasts but i really dont see a difference until your BS is ridiculous (5+) since me personally i either bullseye or boxcars off lol.
syypher wrote: What about thoughts on EWO on RipTides? Burst or IA loadouts?
I know it's just 5 pts but correct me if I'm wrong, you are firing your interceptor guns at BS1 right? So you still need 6's to hit. Then you can't fire that gun during your next shooting phase. Or am I doing this wrong and you should be firing it at your RipTides regular BS?
If you are firing at regular BS I can see how it'd be awesome for 5pts but I'm unclear on this...and no direct access to the rulebook right now.
I use the Ion Cannon on Riptides and last night, i bombed two different Dominion squads silly with Early Warning Override. I have reamed Blood Angels so often it hurts them to even think about Deep Striking.
In the grand schema, both Riptides died in the end (what can ya do? Exorcists). But before they did, they did huge chunks of damage when and where it mattered most. No markerligght help kinda hurts but hey, nothing thats 5 points is perfect!
Martel732 wrote: That's why I don't deep strike. And don't recommend anyone else do it, either.
Hehehe. I deep strike like a mad man. I outflank like a madder man. too much fun not to. But when i see them Riptides, i think two or three times about it first. then i do it anyways, so close to their units that they take a real risk trying it on me. I'd rather risk a mishap than risk that bomb landing on target. Proximity to friendlies is the only cure if you're dead set on deep striking,. pro tip.
Though if you are not a risk taker , ignore this and just start on the board. I guess.
people deepstrike all the time even when it isnt a smart idea. Riptides with IA have table-range so they can intercept almost anything, spacing determines if you do or not against normal reinforcements though.
ive had AV11/12 things come in from the back and i just sniped it out with the regular S7 shots lol.
Buffmander can only twin link and ignore cover in the shooting phase right? So there will be times when baiting with a reserve unit means the riptide will be less effective with interceptor and unable to fire next turn.
This is true, but in most cases it isnt needed for interceptor. Tank and monster hunter remain, dont forget that, since that one is a "Pick this at this point" and it does not say its only that phase.
Its not always ideal, but 9/10 of the time my riptide intercepts when he can. Fliers or crap throwaway unit are usually once i dont - fliers because i need support if i dont have VT on and why would i pi plate a group of grots when i got hordes of boyz infront of me still lol
Dealing with other RipTides, Dreadknights, and other things that are T6+ that have 2+/5++
I played an Eldar friend yesterday and he told me my list would be weak against 2+/5++ models because I don't have very much AP2 other than RipTides IA and their Fusion guns.
I'm trying to make a well-rounded take all comers list and I've got air covered pretty well and weight of fire can usually handle a lot of my other issues including AV12/13. I've recently equipped Fusion guns on my RipTides for the anti-AV14 when needed and have 1x dual fusion Crisis Suit.
Other than that 2+/5++ models like Dreadknight Spam or 3-4 RipTides would give me a really hard time... any thoughts on how to supplement a Tau army to deal with these without going out of the Tau or Farsight books to do it? I dont want to change my list too drastically since its very well rounded right now.
My list is something like:
Buffmander
3x Crisis Suit 2x MP each, target lock + 6 Marker Drones (Buffmander here)
0-3 RipTides IA+Fusions EWO 3x Broadsides HYM+SMS, target lock, 0-6 Missile Drones
1-3 Kroot+Hound Squads
1-2 Skyrays
Sprinkle Flamer/Fusion/Missile Pod Troop Crisis Suits to max points
Unfortunately yes. i kinda hate that the best solution for most situations is more dakka.
The reason i feel theres so much AP2 is not in fear of terminator spam, but to deal with big things. Tau especially can field a TON of S6 AP2 shots and they would make short work of any 2+ T6 creature. I honestly wish 2+ armor was rare as hell and AP1/2 weapons were rare as hell, but it would take too big of a balance shift to do that
I like dual plasma suits but I'm just not sure where to fit them in my army >_< seems like a lot of point investment to shove them in a list.
It's 53 points for a 1x dual plasma rifle Crisis Suit in the enclave book >_> Relative to other things we can take and other armies that can take equivalent firepower in a similar shell, isn't that a bit expensive?
Martel732 wrote: I've always asserted that plasma should be AP 3.
From a balance point of view, I'd agree (if they dropped in points slightly).
From a fluff/science perspective, gonna have to say flat out no I'm afraid.
Thoughts on giving Buffmanders Stimulant Injectors (FNP5+)?
I think they are expensive enough to warrant it but they usually have a lot of stuff to Look Out Sir to as well...I'm usually shrugging off harder to save shots to some drones...
Also: If you have the points, models and FoC slots open... what do you think would be a better all around build:
3x Broadsides + 6x Missile Drones
VS
2x squads of 2x Broadsides + 4x Missile Drones each squad
I know the second option is clearly more firepower and bodies but for sake of target priority I've been heavily debating splitting my 3x man Broadside Squad up (HYMP+SMS+TargetLock) into 2x squads of 2x Broadsides with the same loadouts. Big reason I want to do this is give my opponent harder target priority since now there is a duplicate squad of Broadsides AND now if 1 runs off the field because of their less than stellar LD then I don't lose my entire squad of firepower...I'd still have 2x more Broadsides...
It may not be an equivalent exchange because of 1 more Broad and 2x more drones but just increasing the limit and target saturation is my main goal here. When I have 1 squad of Broadsides on the table it makes it "fairly easy" to wipe out one of my primary squads were all my firepower is coming from. I'm sure a lot of you fellow Tau players can relate.
Martel732 wrote: I've always asserted that plasma should be AP 3.
From a balance point of view, I'd agree (if they dropped in points slightly).
From a fluff/science perspective, gonna have to say flat out no I'm afraid.
I really don't give a feth about their fluff or psuedo-science. It's all about the game balance to me.
I really don't give a feth about their fluff or psuedo-science. It's all about the game balance to me.
Not sure 40k is the right game for you then If they changed its role somewhat so that an AP2 weapon wasn't as commonplace, and add a new AP3 gun, it'd be ok. But desiring something that goes against fluff just won't happen with GW... If you want perfect balance you'd be better off with other systems
40k has a lot of unfluffy changes to balance the game already. Technically per fluff a single marine is tougher than a tank to take down, but in game a little fist bump from a Tau firewarrior can kill one lol
Vineheart01 wrote: 40k has a lot of unfluffy changes to balance the game already. Technically per fluff a single marine is tougher than a tank to take down, but in game a little fist bump from a Tau firewarrior can kill one lol
Agreed, but that's for the sake of the mechanics of the game working at all. 'Smaller' details (e.g. Plasma) tend to follow fluff/science
Vineheart01 wrote: 40k has a lot of unfluffy changes to balance the game already. Technically per fluff a single marine is tougher than a tank to take down, but in game a little fist bump from a Tau firewarrior can kill one lol
This. This is why I don't really pay attention to their fluff. They self-contradict all the time anyhow.
Vineheart01 wrote: 40k has a lot of unfluffy changes to balance the game already. Technically per fluff a single marine is tougher than a tank to take down, but in game a little fist bump from a Tau firewarrior can kill one lol
Agreed, but that's for the sake of the mechanics of the game working at all. 'Smaller' details (e.g. Plasma) tend to follow fluff/science
It's not unreasonable to just say plasma wasn't designed to burn through armor rated at 2+. Simple.
Vineheart01 wrote: 40k has a lot of unfluffy changes to balance the game already. Technically per fluff a single marine is tougher than a tank to take down, but in game a little fist bump from a Tau firewarrior can kill one lol
This. This is why I don't really pay attention to their fluff. They self-contradict all the time anyhow.
Vineheart01 wrote: 40k has a lot of unfluffy changes to balance the game already. Technically per fluff a single marine is tougher than a tank to take down, but in game a little fist bump from a Tau firewarrior can kill one lol
Agreed, but that's for the sake of the mechanics of the game working at all. 'Smaller' details (e.g. Plasma) tend to follow fluff/science
It's not unreasonable to just say plasma wasn't designed to burn through armor rated at 2+. Simple.
Simple enough to say it, but not to believe it plasma can burn through pretty much anything
Plasma burns through anything in current day science. 40k tends to have unknown alloys that are insanely dense and strong, plasma not being so potent in that work makes total sense.
Vineheart01 wrote: 40k has a lot of unfluffy changes to balance the game already. Technically per fluff a single marine is tougher than a tank to take down, but in game a little fist bump from a Tau firewarrior can kill one lol
This. This is why I don't really pay attention to their fluff. They self-contradict all the time anyhow.
Vineheart01 wrote: 40k has a lot of unfluffy changes to balance the game already. Technically per fluff a single marine is tougher than a tank to take down, but in game a little fist bump from a Tau firewarrior can kill one lol
Agreed, but that's for the sake of the mechanics of the game working at all. 'Smaller' details (e.g. Plasma) tend to follow fluff/science
It's not unreasonable to just say plasma wasn't designed to burn through armor rated at 2+. Simple.
Simple enough to say it, but not to believe it plasma can burn through pretty much anything
I already don't believe in 40K's science fluff anyway.
Eh i kinda did derail the threat a bit lol my bad.
Anyone here use Shadowsun? im gonna start bringing her and see how things work out. My idea is stick her with my usual 2 dual plasma and 1 dual fusion crisis team and have her deepstrike behind my opponent. Not quite as killy as buffmander due to no tankhunter/monsterhunter or ignores cover by default, but rerolls of 1 from CMD drone kinda helps the TL issue and gives the unit stealth + shroud.
Question kind of got lost in all the talk about the fluff...
Thoughts on giving Buffmanders Stimulant Injectors (FNP5+)?
I think they are expensive enough to warrant it but they usually have a lot of stuff to Look Out Sir to as well...I'm usually shrugging off harder to save shots to some drones...
Also: If you have the points, models and FoC slots open... what do you think would be a better all around build:
3x Broadsides + 6x Missile Drones
VS
2x squads of 2x Broadsides + 4x Missile Drones each squad
I know the second option is clearly more firepower and bodies but for sake of target priority I've been heavily debating splitting my 3x man Broadside Squad up (HYMP+SMS+TargetLock) into 2x squads of 2x Broadsides with the same loadouts. Big reason I want to do this is give my opponent harder target priority since now there is a duplicate squad of Broadsides AND now if 1 runs off the field because of their less than stellar LD then I don't lose my entire squad of firepower...I'd still have 2x more Broadsides...
It may not be an equivalent exchange because of 1 more Broad and 2x more drones but just increasing the limit and target saturation is my main goal here. When I have 1 squad of Broadsides on the table it makes it "fairly easy" to wipe out one of my primary squads were all my firepower is coming from. I'm sure a lot of you fellow Tau players can relate.
if you have the FOC slot to spare its a valid decision. It gives you that 4th broadside without having him be a loner and lets you manage your shots better, since sometimes all 3 broadsides + 6 missiledrones is overkill lol.
Buffmander with FNP is usually if youre making him Iridium tankmander anyway. Iridium + shield + stim is a 65pt upgrade but it lets hiim tank so much crap everything except riptides cannot since now hes T5 2+ 4++ FNP with 4 wounds lol. Provided no S10 shots (which is really only the random Railhead, Wraithknights, or the seemingly vanished from existance Vindicare) he can tank for days. Problem is thats 65pts on top of an aleady expensive one rofl
Vineheart01 wrote: if you have the FOC slot to spare its a valid decision. It gives you that 4th broadside without having him be a loner and lets you manage your shots better, since sometimes all 3 broadsides + 6 missiledrones is overkill lol.
Buffmander with FNP is usually if youre making him Iridium tankmander anyway. Iridium + shield + stim is a 65pt upgrade but it lets hiim tank so much crap everything except riptides cannot since now hes T5 2+ 4++ FNP with 4 wounds lol. Provided no S10 shots (which is really only the random Railhead, Wraithknights, or the seemingly vanished from existance Vindicare) he can tank for days. Problem is thats 65pts on top of an aleady expensive one rofl
Since when was the vindicare S10?
More S10: vindicators, demolishers, chapter master orbital bombardment, medusae, manticores and much much more
Vindicator my bad (im not a marine player and i oddly enough rarely play against any that have that thing available).
Either way the ones i listed are the most common, least in my meta or in the meta i had back in korea. My bikernobz are more likely to get pasted by an S8 shot after being Enfeebled than any S10 lol so iridium commander would be in the same boat technically.
Vineheart01 wrote: if you have the FOC slot to spare its a valid decision. It gives you that 4th broadside without having him be a loner and lets you manage your shots better, since sometimes all 3 broadsides + 6 missiledrones is overkill lol.
I always put Target Lock on my Broadsides so I can manage those shots separately. Having all that stuff shoot into 1 target is just ridiculous hahah and often than not, overkill!
Drawback of that vs multiple units is you have to declare where theyre all firing before any fire. Separate units dont have that issue. If you find you wiffed against that AV11 rhino and now you have nothing else except a BIG shot to finish it off, youre gonna be sowwy
Vineheart01 wrote: Drawback of that vs multiple units is you have to declare where theyre all firing before any fire. Separate units dont have that issue. If you find you wiffed against that AV11 rhino and now you have nothing else except a BIG shot to finish it off, youre gonna be sowwy
Ya that's true. That's a real good reason to take 2x2 instead of 1x3.
If they pump enough shots into it 1st turn like some armies can and you lose of the missile drones due to Look Out Sir or just later game and losing 25% of your squad you will start taking LD10 tests. Yes it's LD10 but to lose almost 800/900 points seems real scary lol Anyone ever had their deathstar run away? hahah
If they pump enough shots into it 1st turn like some armies can and you lose of the missile drones due to Look Out Sir or just later game and losing 25% of your squad you will start taking LD10 tests. Yes it's LD10 but to lose almost 800/900 points seems real scary lol Anyone ever had their deathstar run away? hahah
Its definitely a weakness. I don't Run the O'Vesa Star, but LD is definitely a weakness of the list. The problem is most of the leadership based attacks are psychic in nature and are negated by the Talisman of Arthas Moloc.
A little food for thought, with three Tank Shocks you have ~%22 chance of breaking the Star. Each one has ~8% chance. Too bad we don't see too many of the Psyker Battle Squads around anymore. Barrage Snipe and Pin could be a tactic.
If they pump enough shots into it 1st turn like some armies can and you lose of the missile drones due to Look Out Sir or just later game and losing 25% of your squad you will start taking LD10 tests. Yes it's LD10 but to lose almost 800/900 points seems real scary lol Anyone ever had their deathstar run away? hahah
Its definitely a weakness. I don't Run the O'Vesa Star, but LD is definitely a weakness of the list. The problem is most of the leadership based attacks are psychic in nature and are negated by the Talisman of Arthas Moloc.
A little food for thought, with three Tank Shocks you have ~%22 chance of breaking the Star. Each one has ~8% chance. Too bad we don't see too many of the Psyker Battle Squads around anymore. Barrage Snipe and Pin could be a tactic.
I ran it for the first time against my friends pretty well-rounded and competitive GK list. It utterly destroyed him... basically tabled him and just lost some troops and the RipTide that was running solo. that deathstar was really powerful. Wiping out 2x Squads of GKSS a turn with ease.
I actually really like it. It's super powerful hahah but I prefer my regular army lists that are more well-rounded TAC
Recently got my farsight sup FINALLY. Going through it, kinda disappointed because it literally looks like i either do a gimick all-suits army (which every tau wants to lol) or beef up riptide spam capabilities, which im always against anyway.
Vineheart01 wrote: Recently got my farsight sup FINALLY. Going through it, kinda disappointed because it literally looks like i either do a gimick all-suits army (which every tau wants to lol) or beef up riptide spam capabilities, which im always against anyway.
Bleh, kinda wish i didnt buy it now lol.
The only reason I wanted to buy it honestly was because I need it to play them in the local tournaments since we are required to have the book. I'd also prefer it over a digital copy. I feel ya on what it allows us to do lol But it does help me a lot because the compulsory 3x Crisis Suits that are "required" is PERFECT for me because I always run 3x dual Missile Pod suits in all my lists with buffmander. The supplement just lets me make that a troop choice now! w00t!
What do you guys think is an optimal squad size for Sniper Drone Team @ 1500 points? At 1850 I'm definitely taking 2x Marker Guys + 9x Sniper drones. At 1500 points though I feel like my points are a little more crunched... those of you who have been messing with them (they have amazing mathhammer stats vs MC's and medium/tougher infantry) what have you been taking at 1500 points?
your tournaments require you to have it even if you arent using it? dafuq? thats dumb. And i agree the troop crisis suis are awesome since theyre 3pts more (since they require bonding) to be made troops...big whoop lol thats a pretty cheap cost increase to be a troop. Excellent marker platform/missile platform lol.
Vineheart01 wrote: your tournaments require you to have it even if you arent using it? dafuq? thats dumb. And i agree the troop crisis suis are awesome since theyre 3pts more (since they require bonding) to be made troops...big whoop lol thats a pretty cheap cost increase to be a troop. Excellent marker platform/missile platform lol.
Err.. I might have worded it wrong. I meant I need it and they require it because I use Tau Enclave If I didn't ally them to my Tau I wouldn't need it.
Vineheart01 wrote: Recently got my farsight sup FINALLY. Going through it, kinda disappointed because it literally looks like i either do a gimick all-suits army (which every tau wants to lol) or beef up riptide spam capabilities, which im always against anyway.
Bleh, kinda wish i didnt buy it now lol.
Well, the only reason I play Tau is so I can take an all suits and drones army with the Farsight Enclave. The point of a Farsight Enclave army is suits, that is exactly what the army is meant to bring. I don't like that you refer to that as gimicky. We all prefer different play styles etc.
Yes, it allows for one very specific Riptide build. Once Tyranids hit I'm betting the O'VesaStar dies as a TMC/TAC Tournament list. Tau will require a more rounded build. At least we will see some of the spare Riptides disappear to allow for a higher volume of fire, etc.
Vineheart01 wrote: Drawback of that vs multiple units is you have to declare where theyre all firing before any fire. Separate units dont have that issue. If you find you wiffed against that AV11 rhino and now you have nothing else except a BIG shot to finish it off, youre gonna be sowwy
Always have backup. For example a broadside unit full of missile drones, and x2 target locks. one broadside and the missile guys shoot at transport #1 while broadside #2 and #3 fire at transport #2. Maybe I destroy one and leave the other with a hull point left.
Now my group of crisis suits with (MP, MP, TL)x3 maybe a commander boosting some marker drones as part of this squad in there also. They are going to be the backup. Markerlights shoot one thing and I split up the rest of the fire as I need.
Target Locks like much of the tau army are meant to be part of a redundancy network, or synergy, or whatever us tau players are calling it nowadays. It IS the same reason why rail guns on hammerheads are considered somewhat sub par, and often overlooked in competitive lists. One single shot no matter how good just may not work in a game of dice, target locks use this same set up, and basicly makes your shooting less powerful, UNLESS you have units elsewhere to fill in those gaps where the primary didn't fully do thier jobs. Start viewing target locks as a different sort of markerlight maybe?
What do you guys think is an optimal squad size for Sniper Drone Team @ 1500 points? At 1850 I'm definitely taking 2x Marker Guys + 9x Sniper drones. At 1500 points though I feel like my points are a little more crunched... those of you who have been messing with them (they have amazing mathhammer stats vs MC's and medium/tougher infantry) what have you been taking at 1500 points?
I honestly try to keep the squad size to 9 = x2 marksmen and 7 drones, These guys really do benifit from any extra shots they can produce so this isn't just a squad size for morale tests issue but a volume of fire idea also. Ethereal nearby highly recomended with them also. 3 shots at 24" (and still able to hit stuff at 48" is nice) is just awesome sauce + two markerlights on the target = easier time for something else to finish off whatever you were shooting at.
Jancoran wrote: Horrify + Terrify = death to the Deathstars!
Meh you have to let someone be within range at the start of their turn to cast those since they're maledictions. Thats not a very reliable prospect vs. any of the main deathstars right now. Even the ovesa star which is comparably slow next to jetseer and screamerstar is fast enough to dodge either of those powers. Not saying it's impossible, just really unlikely unless the deathstar player is unfamiliar with those powers or flat out bad.
Jancoran wrote: Horrify + Terrify = death to the Deathstars!
Meh you have to let someone be within range at the start of their turn to cast those since they're maledictions. Thats not a very reliable prospect vs. any of the main deathstars right now. Even the ovesa star which is comparably slow next to jetseer and screamerstar is fast enough to dodge either of those powers. Not saying it's impossible, just really unlikely unless the deathstar player is unfamiliar with those powers or flat out bad.
Jancoran wrote: Horrify + Terrify = death to the Deathstars!
Meh you have to let someone be within range at the start of their turn to cast those since they're maledictions. Thats not a very reliable prospect vs. any of the main deathstars right now. Even the ovesa star which is comparably slow next to jetseer and screamerstar is fast enough to dodge either of those powers. Not saying it's impossible, just really unlikely unless the deathstar player is unfamiliar with those powers or flat out bad.
Famous last words.
I haven't lost a game yet doing this. I've only played a dozen or so games, but that is a HEALTHY sample size.
As I say on my blog constantly, the easiest thing to attack in 40K is morale.
For farsight Enclave...how are you guys equipping your 3x Compulsory Suits?
I use to do 2x MPs each + Target Lock and then 6x Marker Drones and put my Iridium Buffmander in front. However I've been thinking that it may possibly be better to put him in with the Broadsides. TL for the Missile Drones and ignore cover/tank hunter for more shots.
So what wargear do you put with your Compulsory 3x man suit team? I'm thinking maybe keeping them as backfield obj holders?
Also, apart from the compulsory 3x man Crisis team slot in the Enclave book. Do you guys fill in the rest of your troops with 3x man 2x man or single Crisis Suits? I'm using singles for now. I like the cheapness factor so I can fit in other threats in my list.
, ignore this and just start on the board. I guess.