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Post by: raiden
sure, khorne is a real douche, but is chaos all that bad? are they "evil"?
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Post by: Ailaros
No. They're liberatarians.
To some, that might come across as evil, but that's why we elect those people, so that they can moved to the capital far, far away from the rest of us.
If, on the other hand, you think things like freedom and civil liberties and the right to worship gods that actually exist is a good thing, then welcome to chaos - the only good faction in the game.
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Post by: Troike
If you're a mortal follower, then things will most likely go badly for you. You'll basically be little more than canon fodder, and could be randomly murdered/tortured/betayed by your supposed comrades if the mood strikes them, since discipline in Chaos warbands is rather slack. And then there's the possibility of randomly becoming a Chaos Spawn. Fun.
There's also the fact that you'll be mutated to some degree and have your mind twisted whether you like it or not (if you don't, you'll be corrupted until you do). You don't really get any say in your own body whatsoever.
Unless you disagree with whatever their particular fixation is, that is. 
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Post by: bogalubov
 raiden wrote:sure, khorne is a real douche, but is chaos all that bad? are they "evil"?
The chaos gods are no more evil than the Imperium. They both aim to enslave mankind for their purposes. They both suck the souls out of humans. They both murder humans in large numbers oh a whim. They both get mad when you worship the non-proscribed diety.
To continue the political analogy. The Imperium and Chaos gods are kind of like the two American political parties. They are both crappy, so just pick the window dressing that you like. Automatically Appended Next Post:  Troike wrote:If you're a mortal follower, then things will most likely go badly for you. You'll basically be little more than canon fodder, and could be randomly murdered/tortured/betayed by your supposed comrades if the mood strikes them....have your mind twisted whether you like it or not (if you don't, you'll be corrupted until you do). You don't really get any say in your own body whatsoever.
I thought you were writing about the Imperium there.
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Post by: SkavenLord
Some parts of chaos do make them out to be more on the "good" side than the Imperium. Khorne for instance, forbids the slaughter of the defenseless. The Imperium conducts genocide against everything non-human and sometimes people that are human whether they can defend themselves or not. Nurgle and great unclean ones seek to lead their followers like loving fathers while commissars are more likely to shoot their followers if they don't do as their told.
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Post by: Troike
SkavenLord wrote:Some parts of chaos do make them out to be more on the "good" side than the Imperium. Khorne for instance, forbids the slaughter of the defenseless. The Imperium conducts genocide against everything non-human and sometimes people that are human whether they can defend themselves or not. Nurgle and great unclean ones seek to lead their followers like loving fathers while commissars are more likely to shoot their followers if they don't do as their told.
Haven't the postive aspects of Chaos been really toned down, though? That's what I've been hearing. The Imperium is guilty of some of those things, but it's certainly not as gak as Chaos. The mind twisting is just indoctrination rather than the corruption of you very soul, and there's a greatly reduced chance of your superiors deciding to grind you up and snort you as a drug on a whim.
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Post by: yukondal
Yep. Sure are. Pure evil itself. And heritics. They're evil heritics. Slaves to the daemon gods. That pretty much sums up chaos. Teehee.
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Post by: ChaosCrusader
Good question...
Maybe if chaos did take over the galaxy completely, there would be peace (kinda). ..
I think being evil is not there intention. They are a manifest of people's desires...
Tzeentch will help you in your search for knowledge...
Slaanesh will help you in your desire for fun and perfection...
Khorne will help fulfil your thirst for violence (hmmmm)
Nurgle will give you a family and purpose in life.
This seems to be more friendly than the imperium of man, who enslaves humans under a fear of the emperor and each persons Only reason for existence is to maintain the imperium and thus the tyranny of the emperors rule...
Yeah chaos are more of the good guys. But ultimately Tau are the hippies of the galaxy. Maybe elder are close behind...
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Post by: Pendix
The Imperium of Man are not the good guys, but Chaos . . . Chaos is defiantly the bad guys. Maybe not the worst guys, but definitely among their number.
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Post by: raiden
Khorne, at his best, is a noble warrior that abhors killing of defenseless. (ofc I read that a long time ago)
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Post by: Psienesis
Yes, but the Chaos Gods are never at *only* their noble aspects. They are a "whole package" deal. So while you might start out serving Khorne with the noblest of intentions, Chaos has a way of eroding away at your humanity, until, in the end, you are nothing but a maddened berzerker, slaying all before you in a frenzy of bloodlust and fury.
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Post by: Jimsolo
Yes, Chaos is evil. Followers of chaos are evil. Beings of chaos are really evil. Goodly people might start down the path to chaos with good intentions, but it always ends badly. (Eisenhorn, Quixos, and a score of others stand as testaments to this.)
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Post by: Far Seer
Burn heretics in the name of the Emperor! The freedom of Chaos is certainly tempting yes, but I wouldn't want tentacles sprouting from various parts of my body. The Imperium has good intentions for humanity, but it's just flawed in the way it runs things.
Chaos on the other hand is completely random and you will never know if you will turn out to be a glorious daemon prince or be turned into a spawn.
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Post by: A sane man
But... but... Papa Nurgle just wants to give you gifts!
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Post by: Lobokai
Evil, pure evil. Anything that might seem good, is just the seductive quality of chaos. That being said, Choas followers might have some shades of grey... But they are following the purest forms if evil in the galaxy.
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Post by: BladeSwinga
At least your chances of becoming a prince or spawn are equal! 
Chaos has a set of broad, defined goals, and much like today's Christians, their followers interpret their gods' will differently. Head-hunting for Khorne is not much different from the Crusades of the dark ages, both were acts of worship with the intentions of furthering the influence of the warriors' diety. From the outside they seem evil, but internally, Chaos followers are pure. They share a close bond with their gods, and actively follow the creed of their specific patron.
And to those claiming " ew, Chaos mutation," if a physical sign that your god is paying attention to you manifests on your body, I'd imagine you'd get pretty hyped.
Chaos, while not the nicest faction, can be considered one of the "good" parties, as there is always a greater goal to aspire to, even in the guise of personal gain that a lot of Chaos followers fall into.
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Post by: Ailaros
Nurgle just loves all creatures equally. As such, he gives equal gifts to both you, and to each of the trillion bacteria living inside of you.
Don't think you're more special just because you're bigger than an ebola.
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Post by: raiden
I sense a lot of chaos dislike here. lol
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Post by: Happyjew
I dislike Chaos. More specifically I dislike the Warp. Even if my presence causes a Shadow in it...
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Post by: Wilytank
SkavenLord wrote:Some parts of chaos do make them out to be more on the "good" side than the Imperium. Khorne for instance, forbids the slaughter of the defenseless. The Imperium conducts genocide against everything non-human and sometimes people that are human whether they can defend themselves or not.
Khorne doesn't care from where blood flows, only that it does. Cowards that refuse to fight must be killed by the orders of Khorne. He's also not above stabbing people in the back.
 ChaosCrusader wrote:Good question...
Maybe if chaos did take over the galaxy completely, there would be peace (kinda). ..
I think being evil is not there intention. They are a manifest of people's desires...
Tzeentch will help you in your search for knowledge...
Slaanesh will help you in your desire for fun and perfection...
Khorne will help fulfil your thirst for violence (hmmmm)
Nurgle will give you a family and purpose in life.
No. The Chaos gods are equally at war with each other as much as they are against the Imperium. If Chaos conquered the galaxy, the gods would return their attention to The Great Game. Followers of each of the gods would continuously battle each other in a war that probably would never end.
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Post by: Very Superstitious
Kind of off topic, I would much rather be killed by followers of Khorne than any other chaos god. The don't want to draw out your death and make your soul suffer in the warp, they just want your skull, which is so incoveniently attached to the rest of your body.
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Post by: Melissia
Chaos is evil.
They even admit it themselves and relish in it and bathe in the blood of those that they consider not evil. They adore evil and wish that they could figure out ways to be more evil because that is how they measure their egos, by how much more evil they are than the next chaos guy.
Chaos are the people who say, with a straight face and complete seriousness, "let no good deed go unpunished; let no evil be unrewarded".
There's one thing to talk about the peasants who worship because they're desperate and etc, but they are powerless within the system of Chaos, tools to be used and sacrificed and tossed aside as daemonfood. The Imperium is dark and oppressive, but it is dark and oppressive in service to the greater whole of humanity. Chaos is dark and oppressive just for the gaks and the giggles. They grab a child from it's mother's breast, slit its throat, and drink its blood because they want to watch the mother suffer. They trick a man in to selling his daughters to Slaanesh because it was funny. They spread rebellion and hate because they were bored and it felt like a fun thing to do. They dump diseased feces in drinking water so that they can use the disease to forcibly convert others to their religion of sickly suffering and despair.
And they relish every second of it, acknowledging that they're evil and saying "so what? got a problem with it, huh?"
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Post by: curran12
And what, exactly, is there to like or admire about Chaos?
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Post by: raiden
In the words of William Wallace, "FREEEEDOOOOOOMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMM"
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Post by: Melissia
There is no freedom in Chaos. The forces of Chaos are one of hte only places that are MORE oppressive than the Imperium.
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Post by: curran12
raiden wrote:
In the words of William Wallace, "FREEEEDOOOOOOMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMM"
Um...noooo. Pretty much there's no freedom as a follower of Chaos.
Cultist? Hah. That's funny. You're as expendable (perhaps moreso) as ammunition, but it isn't your call.
A Marine? You're still in a warband or legion, where you're being told what to do by those bigger and stronger Lords. And yeah, they aren't exactly the democratic types.
A Lord? Hey great! You're dancing for your God(s) of choice!
A daemon prince? Even better! You are literally slaved to the will of your god!
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Post by: raiden
SO I am slaved to doing what I wanted to do in the first place?
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Post by: curran12
raiden wrote:SO I am slaved to doing what I wanted to do in the first place?
So being a god's little plaything to mutate at their whim was your plan? Assuming you survived your allies stabbing you in the back.
Alright.
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Post by: Blackhair Duckshape
I'm asked myself this for all of the factions and it always comes down to "how do you define evil?".
My usual conclusion is "yes, but so is everyone else (except for the Orks and Tyranids, arguably) so no one is" because contemplating the nature of good and evil makes my head hurt.
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Post by: raiden
nids are evil, if chaos is evil, also, I don't see how the eldar are evil in any way, (snooty, perhaps)but that hardly warrents evil, and Orks, ahh, good ole fun loving orks, can be seen as evil for their love of violence, (almost makes khorne shed a tear ;')
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Post by: curran12
raiden wrote:nids are evil, if chaos is evil, also, I don't see how the eldar are evil in any way, (snooty, perhaps)but that hardly warrents evil, and Orks, ahh, good ole fun loving orks, can be seen as evil for their love of violence, (almost makes khorne shed a tear ;')
How are Tyranids evil? That's like calling a tornado evil.
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Post by: StarTrotter
Now keep in mind this is simply my personal opinion.... Is chaos good? Is chaos evil? Honestly, I argue chaos is neither. Chaos is, if I would pick anything, naturally chaotic neutral. What is a chaos god? What is the warp? The warp is something that is there and not. A sifting world of ether and nonsense that the human mind constructs in constantly shifting yet similar forms. The gods both exists as an entity and simply as a mass off swirling power. Chaos isn't evil nor is it good. It is everything. The gods represent both good virtues and bad virtues. Some have predispositions (particularly Khorne to being one of the more "evil" ones) yet even he has some virtues. To not slay the defenseless is his. Look at somebody like Tzeentch. He feeds off of dreams, desires, ambition, hope, change. Are these not things that can be both positive and negative?
Chaos is simply by itself neither. What it is... is a reflection of the world itself. The real world survives on senseless murder, inequality, and suffering. War is eternal and the worlds crumble apart. The poor lament decaying of disease whilst the rich live ages in pleasure scheming to grow mightier. And how does the warp react? It grows increasingly corrupt. The spiral continues as more and more senseless murder occurs until those "positive" emotions are blotched out by the darkness. Whilst a few glimmers remain they are vastly outnumbered by the GRIMDAK! And so in the end chaos begins to spew out, in a sort of loop, daemons (negativity) increasing the suffering eternally.
In terms of races... Whilst to our interpretation (as we are about to get gobbled up), many would call them evil. Yet look at it from a more observant way. They are acting upon their instincts. They are more of a typhoon of mother nature/evolution than anything else. Arguably you can state that chaos isn't evil as much as a mirror of the world (which happens to be evil so in the end ). Orks? Well they just like to have fun! That being said they brutalitize, murder, back stab, and enslave. And finally you have the people you couldn't think of being evil. Eldar. What are they? Liers, deceitful, overly arrogant. They created a god from their own selfish pleasures. They are willing to slaughter a million humans to save a single Eldar life whilst their lore claims that their race must die for their time to return. They are not kind nor are they generous. The only seperations between an eldar and dark eldar is that one chose to continue their pleasure rampage whilst the other did not.
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Post by: Ailaros
curran12 wrote:And what, exactly, is there to like or admire about Chaos?
Lots of things.
People who don't get chaos are people who just aren't thinking big enough. The meek get nothing but a short life filled with suffering. The powerful can change the world, or, as it is, the galaxy. Only when you have power can you set things straight.
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Post by: raiden
 curran12 wrote: raiden wrote:nids are evil, if chaos is evil, also, I don't see how the eldar are evil in any way, (snooty, perhaps)but that hardly warrents evil, and Orks, ahh, good ole fun loving orks, can be seen as evil for their love of violence, (almost makes khorne shed a tear ;')
How are Tyranids evil? That's like calling a tornado evil.
the beings themselves arent, just the hive mind, it is sentient enough to realize it is wiping out entire civilizations and stripping all galaxies of life, and doesn't care and goes on its merry way, thats evil. Automatically Appended Next Post:  Ailaros wrote:curran12 wrote:And what, exactly, is there to like or admire about Chaos?
Lots of things.
People who don't get chaos are people who just aren't thinking big enough. The meek get nothing but a short life filled with suffering. The powerful can change the world, or, as it is, the galaxy. Only when you have power can you set things straight.
I like this. !
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Post by: Void__Dragon
The fact that they are way more badass than about 92.435435% of the Imperium.
The Chaos Gods are not even sentient. They can't be evil.
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Post by: Troike
You seem to have the impression that Chaos are a load of freedom fighters, letting people express themselves however they want and trying to liberate humanity. But they're not, they're even more oppressive than the Imperium. To a Chaos god, a human is a plaything, to be twisted mind, body and soul in whatever way that Chaos desires. You don't get any say in the matter. If you resist, you'll have those changes forced upon you anyway. You don't get to be the best you that you can be, you get to be the you that Chaos forces you to be. Ailaros wrote:The meek get nothing but a short life filled with suffering.
The problem being that you or I would most likely be considered "meek" next to a massive superhuman.
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Post by: Kain
Chaos would be considered heinously, unspeakably, incomprehensibly evil by most other universe's bad guy factions. We're talking Hitler would piss himself in terror level evil.
Of course the 40k ladder of morality starts at the substnatially worse than Adolf Hitler and Friends Tau Empire and only gets more and more evil until you get to the Dark Eldar who pretty much just flat out break the scale of being a horrible person.
Every major faction in 40k is literally at least a thousand times worse than the Nazis and more unrepentantly evil.
Everyone is extremely evil to some degree, Chaos and the Dark Eldar are so evil that their immorality collapses into a black hole of unstoppable horribleness from which only bad may escape.
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Post by: Pilau Rice
It a matter of perspective.
On the world where you grew up, worshiping the pantheon as you were told to by your elders, where you farm Grox and say your prays every night, giving thanks to the Great Four. Then one day it all changed, when Iron Clad warriors from the stars came down and warred with your kindred for no reason other than not knowing about a mythical figure called the God Emperor. You had only ever been told of four, so who was this pretender. Your people had done no wrong, you had been good, so why were they being slaughtered? You pray to the Pantheon for help, for blood, death, hope and joyous victory, you pray and the Gods answer.
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Post by: Kain
 Pilau Rice wrote:It a matter of perspective.
On the world where you grew up, worshiping the pantheon as you were told to by your elders, where you farm Grox and say your prays every night, giving thanks to the Great Four. Then one day it all changed, when Iron Clad warriors from the stars came down and warred with your kindred for no reason other than not knowing about a mythical figure called the God Emperor. You had only ever been told of four, so who was this pretender. Your people had done no wrong, you had been good, so why were they being slaughtered? You pray to the Pantheon for help, for blood, death, hope and joyous victory, you pray and the Gods answer.
Alternatively, you see a small metal object in the sky and something plunging down to the surface.
And then everything burns while your planet turns itself inside out before exploding into a new asteroid belt.
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Post by: Pilau Rice
 Kain wrote: Pilau Rice wrote:It a matter of perspective.
On the world where you grew up, worshiping the pantheon as you were told to by your elders, where you farm Grox and say your prays every night, giving thanks to the Great Four. Then one day it all changed, when Iron Clad warriors from the stars came down and warred with your kindred for no reason other than not knowing about a mythical figure called the God Emperor. You had only ever been told of four, so who was this pretender. Your people had done no wrong, you had been good, so why were they being slaughtered? You pray to the Pantheon for help, for blood, death, hope and joyous victory, you pray and the Gods answer.
Alternatively, you see a small metal object in the sky and something plunging down to the surface.
And then everything burns while your planet turns itself inside out before exploding into a new asteroid belt.
Or that yeah, but only the guy who presses the button gets all the fun
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Post by: PredaKhaine
Chaos = More eviler than Skeletor! 
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Post by: ChaosCrusader
Maybe chaos is a little bit evil then...
But hands down the most twisted and perverse EVIL race in the universe is the dark elder...
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Post by: Happyjew
What is evil anyway?
Is there reason to the rhyme?
Without Evil there can be no good,
so it must be good to be evil sometimes.
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Post by: Dannyevilguy
Pilau Rice wrote:It a matter of perspective.
On the world where you grew up, worshiping the pantheon as you were told to by your elders, where you farm Grox and say your prays every night, giving thanks to the Great Four. Then one day it all changed, when Iron Clad warriors from the stars came down and warred with your kindred for no reason other than not knowing about a mythical figure called the God Emperor. You had only ever been told of four, so who was this pretender. Your people had done no wrong, you had been good, so why were they being slaughtered? You pray to the Pantheon for help, for blood, death, hope and joyous victory, you pray and the Gods answer.
I'll admit I have not read much in the way of the chaos black library books, but everything I have seen in the codex points to something more like this.
On the world where you grew up, never seeing the sun except for when you were brought up from the mines to be ritually scarred in honor of the 4 gods you are forced to worship, you hear a strange rumbling one day. Out of the sky comes large iron pods with great warriors in them who march forth slaughtering the daemonic beings that made the life of you and the other villagers a living nightmare. You shed a tear wishing your parents were alive to see this, but sady they were used as playthings for a Slaanesh orgy last festivus and did not survive the evening.
The great warriors leave and within a day a large number of women in strange armor arrive preaching of a new god, one god who made a great sacrifice in order to save all of mankind from the monstrous false gods that would prey on them. The women are handing out food, medical supplies and offer protection. All that they ask is you forsake the gods that maimed you, and devote yourself to this 'God Emperor' who asks only that you worship him.
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Post by: PredaKhaine
 Dannyevilguy wrote:The great warriors leave and within a day a large number of women With Flamers in strange armor arrive preaching of a new god, one god who made a great sacrifice in order to save all of mankind from the monstrous false gods that would prey on them. The women With Flamers are handing out food, medical supplies and offer protection. All that they ask With Flamers is you forsake the gods that maimed you, and at flamer point devote yourself to this 'God Emperor' who asks only that you worship him.
Fix'd Oh, and the opt out policy is flamers too. Ps, you know your uncle dave, the one with the club foot? they flamered him for being tainted. Your mate Geoff who didn't want to worship anymore? he got flamered too. Where can you go to complain about this harsh treatment? Step over here, thats right, just a little bit further. If you could just make sure you aren't blocking the nozzle... fwoom, whoosh, other flamer type noises... Chaos worlds are exterminatus'd. Imperial worlds invaded may potentially be saved if the taint hasn't spread too far, but the population still may not be.
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Post by: Crimson
Chaos is obviously evil. And so is Imperium. They're just different sorts of evil. Casting Chaos as bad guys and Imperium as good guys is missing the point.
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Post by: Troike
I'll clarify that saying that the Chaos gods are evil is actually evil is debatable, since they are essentially just constructs of emotion, so we could compare them to a natural disaster. They couldn't act any other way.
But are they bad? Yes, certainly. The baddest, in fact.
 PredaKhaine wrote: Dannyevilguy wrote:The great warriors leave and within a day a large number of women With Flamers in strange armor arrive preaching of a new god, one god who made a great sacrifice in order to save all of mankind from the monstrous false gods that would prey on them. The women With Flamers are handing out food, medical supplies and offer protection. All that they ask With Flamers is you forsake the gods that maimed you, and at flamer point devote yourself to this 'God Emperor' who asks only that you worship him.
Fix'd
Ha!
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Post by: Pilau Rice
Dannyevilguy wrote:You shed a tear wishing your parents were alive to see this, but sady they were used as playthings for a Slaanesh orgy last festivus and did not survive the evening
And boy, did they have a good time.
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Post by: Trondheim
There is no question, Chaos is so evil that it makes anything else pale in comparison, hell I think even the most deranged pdictaotr on earth and in the ages to come would be hard pressed to be anything remotely as evil as the rank & file Chaos marine is
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Post by: ashrog
There are no 'good guys' in 40k. That is one of the major bullet points of the setting. Everyone is some level of amoral, bloodthirsty or downright evil. The difference between the Imperium and Chaos is:
The Imperium commits atrocities because it is necessary for the survival of the human race.
Chaos commits atrocities 'cause it's fun.
Can there be 'good' Chaos followers? Sure. For a while. But Chaos is a corrupting force. The noble knight who follows Khorne will eventually become a blood-mad berserker.
Someone may turn to Chaos believing it will give them the power to 'set things right', but once they have that power, they only crave more power and control.
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Post by: Crimson
 ashrog wrote:
The Imperium commits atrocities because it is necessary for the survival of the human race.
Or so they say.
Chaos commits atrocities 'cause it's fun.
Fun sounds fun.
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Post by: Blackhair Duckshape
There's no such thing as good or evil, it's all just a matter of opinion.
We say that Chaos/the Imperium etc are evil because we, personally, dislike what they do. But why are murder, torture, slavery etc deemed "bad"?
Because we choose them to be.
What if we saw life as a tedious slog that we have to put up with?
What if we relished the sensory overload brought on by torture?
What if we believed that freedom was too much responsibility for most people to handle and that we felt content in the servitude of a master?
Then, suddenly, a gang of Khorne Berzerkers go from a mass of blood thirsty lunatics to a bunch of bros who are just cutting short the boredom of countless people in the name of the the god of fun.
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Post by: illuknisaa
ashrog wrote:There are no 'good guys' in 40k. That is one of the major bullet points of the setting. Everyone is some level of amoral, bloodthirsty or downright evil. The difference between the Imperium and Chaos is:
The Imperium commits atrocities because it is necessary for the survival of the human race.
Chaos commits atrocities 'cause it's fun.
Can there be 'good' Chaos followers? Sure. For a while. But Chaos is a corrupting force. The noble knight who follows Khorne will eventually become a blood-mad berserker.
Someone may turn to Chaos believing it will give them the power to 'set things right', but once they have that power, they only crave more power and control.
Chaos did not create itself. Chaos mirrors the feelings of mortals (oomies and panzee).
Eldar partied (really) hard and that lead to the creation of Slaanesh. Slaanesh did not just "poof" into existance.
Chaos is only as evil as you are.
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Post by: DarthOvious
I went for the total evil option. Only Tzeentch has any redeeming factors about him and thats only because he schemes for the sake of scheeming and will even mess up his own plans, for the day when Tzeentch stops scheming is the day he stops existing. So its a case of survival for him.
The others however are just totally evil beyond belief.
Khorne - The god of murder, need I say more? Some people say he is also the god of martial honour but so what? He craves skulls for the skull throne like some freaky psychopath who buries dead bodies in his basement and likes nothing better than to take enjoyment in massive slaughter. Totally evil.
Slaneesh - The god of sick and twisted deviant pleasures. I don't think I need to expand on this really. We're talking pleasure from torturing people, pleasure from being tortured, drugs, etc, etc. And thats without all the sick sexual stuff which I just won't go into.
Nurgle - The fat and smelly god who like to spread disease and suffering. Oh ghee great. And to think he is described as being one of the more caring chaos gods. If his idea of caring for people is to give them some sort of disease that eats away at their body and makes them infested with bugs, then he generally needs to see a psychiatrist.
Thats it really, I don't think I really need to say any more on this.
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Post by: ashrog
 Crimson wrote: ashrog wrote:
The Imperium commits atrocities because it is necessary for the survival of the human race.
Or so they say.
In-universe, this reasoning might work, but we, as readers have a greater understanding of the 40k universe than the average Imperial citizen. While they may question why and how their leaders can commit such unspeakable acts, we know that burning witches and Exterminatus'ing worlds is often completely necessary. Maybe not every single time it happens, but often.
Not quite. More like 'Chaos is only as evil as EVERYBODY is', which can be pretty fething bad in 40k.
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Post by: Tyran
raiden wrote: curran12 wrote: raiden wrote:nids are evil, if chaos is evil, also, I don't see how the eldar are evil in any way, (snooty, perhaps)but that hardly warrents evil, and Orks, ahh, good ole fun loving orks, can be seen as evil for their love of violence, (almost makes khorne shed a tear ;')
How are Tyranids evil? That's like calling a tornado evil.
the beings themselves arent, just the hive mind, it is sentient enough to realize it is wiping out entire civilizations and stripping all galaxies of life, and doesn't care and goes on its merry way, thats evil.
Also it works on different principles than the human mind, to it we are just food that somehow knows how to fight back. Good and Evil are alien concepts to it.
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Post by: Crimson
Or maybe because Chaos is reflection of human psyches, and most humans live in a horrible fascist hell-hole, the evilness of chaos is indirectly caused by inhuman attitudes of the Imperium?
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Post by: Pilau Rice
Time for a ramble here, please bare with ...
Is that true though, or is it because it's their nature.
Khorne doesn't know how to be anything other than a bloodthirsty God, because it's his being, it's how he was created.
Are the Chaos Gods evil, or is it their followers acting out their masters wishes, or at least how they deem them to be acted out, that are evil? Chaos Space Marines are nasty guys without a doubt, but do the Chaos Gods honestly care how you worship, or just that you are worshiping? Chaos Space Marines don't know any better than to wage war, after all, it's what they were created for, but they also have their own agenda at heart, largely fighting the Long War or for personal gain. So they do what they do in the name of Chaos and they do it in the only way they know how.
If you piss of a Chaos God, you're going to be opened up to a world of pain sure, but if your doing the rounds and keeping them happy, are they that bothered?
The Gods were happy possibly until they started losing ground to the Emperor during the Crusade, the Heresy was an attempt to get back what they thought was theirs. Now it's just all part of the great game and the outcome of the Heresy was what they wanted, war and opportunity.
If Chaos was that bad then why do mortals keep embracing it, something must be pretty off in the Imperium for you to want to embrace something that makes leprosy and syphilis seem like a pleasant experience.
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Post by: DarthOvious
Pilau Rice wrote: Dannyevilguy wrote:You shed a tear wishing your parents were alive to see this, but sady they were used as playthings for a Slaanesh orgy last festivus and did not survive the evening
And boy, did they have a good time.
Not really. Dad was taken up the back by a rough trick named Bob.
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Post by: Tyran
 DarthOvious wrote:I went for the total evil option. Only Tzeentch has any redeeming factors about him and thats only because he schemes for the sake of scheeming and will even mess up his own plans, for the day when Tzeentch stops scheming is the day he stops existing. So its a case of survival for him. The others however are just totally evil beyond belief. Khorne - The god of murder, need I say more? Some people say he is also the god of martial honour but so what? He craves skulls for the skull throne like some freaky psychopath who buries dead bodies in his basement and likes nothing better than to take enjoyment in massive slaughter. Totally evil. Slaneesh - The god of sick and twisted deviant pleasures. I don't think I need to expand on this really. We're talking pleasure from torturing people, pleasure from being tortured, drugs, etc, etc. And thats without all the sick sexual stuff which I just won't go into. Nurgle - The fat and smelly god who like to spread disease and suffering. Oh ghee great. And to think he is described as being one of the more caring chaos gods. If his idea of caring for people is to give them some sort of disease that eats away at their body and makes them infested with bugs, then he generally needs to see a psychiatrist. Thats it really, I don't think I really need to say any more on this.
All the Chaos Gods have some redeeming qualities. Tzeentch: God of hope Slaanesh: God of pleasure and perfection. Khorne: God of martial prowes and honor. Nurgle: God of life (ironically) and love. And Malice, which is the Chaos God of anarchy, so that makes it the God of freedom.
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Post by: DarthOvious
 illuknisaa wrote: ashrog wrote:There are no 'good guys' in 40k. That is one of the major bullet points of the setting. Everyone is some level of amoral, bloodthirsty or downright evil. The difference between the Imperium and Chaos is:
The Imperium commits atrocities because it is necessary for the survival of the human race.
Chaos commits atrocities 'cause it's fun.
Can there be 'good' Chaos followers? Sure. For a while. But Chaos is a corrupting force. The noble knight who follows Khorne will eventually become a blood-mad berserker.
Someone may turn to Chaos believing it will give them the power to 'set things right', but once they have that power, they only crave more power and control.
Chaos did not create itself. Chaos mirrors the feelings of mortals (oomies and panzee).
Eldar partied (really) hard and that lead to the creation of Slaanesh. Slaanesh did not just "poof" into existance.
Chaos is only as evil as you are.
Thats the point however isn't it? Slaneesh only bursted into existence because the Eldar got so depraved in the first place. So Slaneesh is a manifestation of their depravity. When are going to see a chaos god burst into existence because someone became too charitable?
From what I been told, the big four chaos gods aren't the only chaos gods around and you do actually get benevolent chaos gods. They just don't fool around with the affairs of man. Automatically Appended Next Post:  Tyran wrote: DarthOvious wrote:I went for the total evil option. Only Tzeentch has any redeeming factors about him and thats only because he schemes for the sake of scheeming and will even mess up his own plans, for the day when Tzeentch stops scheming is the day he stops existing. So its a case of survival for him.
The others however are just totally evil beyond belief.
Khorne - The god of murder, need I say more? Some people say he is also the god of martial honour but so what? He craves skulls for the skull throne like some freaky psychopath who buries dead bodies in his basement and likes nothing better than to take enjoyment in massive slaughter. Totally evil.
Slaneesh - The god of sick and twisted deviant pleasures. I don't think I need to expand on this really. We're talking pleasure from torturing people, pleasure from being tortured, drugs, etc, etc. And thats without all the sick sexual stuff which I just won't go into.
Nurgle - The fat and smelly god who like to spread disease and suffering. Oh ghee great. And to think he is described as being one of the more caring chaos gods. If his idea of caring for people is to give them some sort of disease that eats away at their body and makes them infested with bugs, then he generally needs to see a psychiatrist.
Thats it really, I don't think I really need to say any more on this.
All the Chaos Gods have some redeeming qualities.
Tzeentch: God of hope
Slaanesh: God of pleasure and perfection.
Khorne: God of martial prowes and honor.
Nurgle: God of life (ironically) and love.
And Malice, which is the Chaos God of anarchy, so that makes it the God of freedom.
I already mentioned Khorne and explained why. Tzeentch is only redeeming because he is a schemer, rather than a deviant who takes pleasure in murder, deviant acts or casuses sickness and disease.
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Post by: sierra 1247
Slaanesh, fair enough. It is a perverse, dishonourable and weak entity. The path of excess is without a doubt evil, there are no good sides to Slaanesh.
Tzeentch, im not too sure on really.
Khorne and Nurgle are the better gods though, Khorne is the god of martial honour and battle, he honours the strongest warriors who fight to win without using deception.
Nurgle is a slightly nicer god as well, i mean sure he spreads horrific plagues, but if you side with him he spares you the pain from the pestilence.
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Post by: PredaKhaine
 sierra 1247 wrote:Slaanesh, fair enough. It is a perverse, dishonourable and weak entity. The path of excess is without a doubt evil, there are no good sides to Slaanesh.
Tzeentch, im not too sure on really.
Khorne and Nurgle are the better gods though, Khorne is the god of martial honour and battle, he honours the strongest warriors who fight to win without using deception.
Nurgle is a slightly nicer god as well, i mean sure he spreads horrific plagues, but if you side with him he spares you the pain from the pestilence.
There's gotta be good sides or people wouldn't be attracted to worship them - Slaanesh can give you charisma - whether you use it to get 'friendly' with people or become a demagogue is up to you.
Then there's love - Slaanesh can make people (possibly anyone?) love you.
Automatically Appended Next Post: DarthOvious wrote:When are going to see a chaos god burst into existence because someone became too charitable?
erm... GW when people try to give rules/points values away over the internet?
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Post by: Tyran
DarthOvious wrote: illuknisaa wrote: ashrog wrote:There are no 'good guys' in 40k. That is one of the major bullet points of the setting. Everyone is some level of amoral, bloodthirsty or downright evil. The difference between the Imperium and Chaos is:
The Imperium commits atrocities because it is necessary for the survival of the human race.
Chaos commits atrocities 'cause it's fun.
Can there be 'good' Chaos followers? Sure. For a while. But Chaos is a corrupting force. The noble knight who follows Khorne will eventually become a blood-mad berserker.
Someone may turn to Chaos believing it will give them the power to 'set things right', but once they have that power, they only crave more power and control.
Chaos did not create itself. Chaos mirrors the feelings of mortals (oomies and panzee).
Eldar partied (really) hard and that lead to the creation of Slaanesh. Slaanesh did not just "poof" into existance.
Chaos is only as evil as you are.
Thats the point however isn't it? Slaneesh only bursted into existence because the Eldar got so depraved in the first place. So Slaneesh is a manifestation of their depravity. When are going to see a chaos god burst into existence because someone became too charitable?
From what I been told, the big four chaos gods aren't the only chaos gods around and you do actually get benevolent chaos gods. They just don't fool around with the affairs of man.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Tyran wrote: DarthOvious wrote:I went for the total evil option. Only Tzeentch has any redeeming factors about him and thats only because he schemes for the sake of scheeming and will even mess up his own plans, for the day when Tzeentch stops scheming is the day he stops existing. So its a case of survival for him.
The others however are just totally evil beyond belief.
Khorne - The god of murder, need I say more? Some people say he is also the god of martial honour but so what? He craves skulls for the skull throne like some freaky psychopath who buries dead bodies in his basement and likes nothing better than to take enjoyment in massive slaughter. Totally evil.
Slaneesh - The god of sick and twisted deviant pleasures. I don't think I need to expand on this really. We're talking pleasure from torturing people, pleasure from being tortured, drugs, etc, etc. And thats without all the sick sexual stuff which I just won't go into.
Nurgle - The fat and smelly god who like to spread disease and suffering. Oh ghee great. And to think he is described as being one of the more caring chaos gods. If his idea of caring for people is to give them some sort of disease that eats away at their body and makes them infested with bugs, then he generally needs to see a psychiatrist.
Thats it really, I don't think I really need to say any more on this.
All the Chaos Gods have some redeeming qualities.
Tzeentch: God of hope
Slaanesh: God of pleasure and perfection.
Khorne: God of martial prowes and honor.
Nurgle: God of life (ironically) and love.
And Malice, which is the Chaos God of anarchy, so that makes it the God of freedom.
I already mentioned Khorne and explained why. Tzeentch is only redeeming because he is a schemer, rather than a deviant who takes pleasure in murder, deviant acts or casuses sickness and disease.
The Chaos Gods are creations of the mortals in the Materium.
All the Chaos Gods have redeeming qualities, that doesn't mean that they aren't evil. It does mean that it is impossible to not feed them because their domains are far greater than "evil things". Do you love someone? feeding Nurgle. Are you an honorable person? feeding Khorne. Do you have pleasure in your life? feeding Slaanesh. Do you have hopes and dreams and plans for the future? feeding Tzeentch. Do you like freedom? feeding Malice.
And there is already a Chaos God of charity, and it is Nurgle.
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Post by: Melissia
Even assuming that they DO have redeeming qualities-- which GW has not been consistent about at all... Which he twists in to destructive impulses and endless rebellion and schemes which will never amount to anything. Which s/he twists in to hedonism and overindulgence, uncaring for the lives of those that are used, abused, wasted, and tossed aside for the pleasure of their chosen. Which is quickly forgotten in a storm of blood and bone, and ritual sacrifice of the innocent as their skulls are piled on high. Whom loves disease and bugs more than humans, thus allowing them to waste human life away in order to allow the disease and bugs to live. Twisting "good" emotions in to evil ones doesn't make them less evil . Arguably, it makes them MORE evil. Tyran wrote:It does mean that it is impossible to not feed them because their domains are far greater than "evil things". Do you love someone? feeding Nurgle. Are you an honorable person? feeding Khorne. Do you have pleasure in your life? feeding Slaanesh. Do you have hopes and dreams and plans for the future? feeding Tzeentch.
No. Nurgle does not gain sustenance from love, nor does Khorne from honor, nor mere pleasure feed Slaanesh, nor dreams Tzeentch. Nurgle needs rot and decay to grow, and Khorne needs bloodshed and hate. Slaanesh does not need mere pleasure, but rather acts of EXCESS, whether they be pleasure or anything else. And Tzeentch needs plotting and scheming.
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Post by: Crimson
 Melissia wrote:
Twisting "good" emotions in to evil ones doesn't make them less evil . Arguably, it makes them MORE evil.
And Imperium's good quality of protecting humanity is twisted into oppressive fascist dystopia.
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Post by: DarthOvious
Tyran wrote:The Chaos Gods are creations of the mortals in the Materium.
All the Chaos Gods have redeeming qualities, that doesn't mean that they aren't evil. It does mean that it is impossible to not feed them because their domains are far greater than "evil things". Do you love someone? feeding Nurgle.
Yes because nothing says I love you like giving them a disease as a present.
Are you an honorable person? feeding Khorne.
And the throne made of skull? Just a little bit too creapy maybe?
Do you have pleasure in your life? feeding Slaanesh.
Pleasure from what exactly? We're talking torture, drugs and a all maner of sick things. He burst into creation at the height of the decadence of the Eldar empire. Really says a lot there.
Do you have hopes and dreams and plans for the future? feeding Tzeentch.
Thats why Tzeentch is redeemable. He is just about change. No more, no less.
Do you like freedom? feeding Malice.
We're sticking to the big four here I think.
And there is already a Chaos God of charity, and it is Nurgle.
So why have I never seen a Plague Marine work down at the local oxfam?
At the end of the day look at the actions of the followers. They don't like the imperium, fair enough, but they all too easily slaughter the innocents when they invade a planet and they get rewarded by their gods for it.
Having a slightly good side to you doesn't redeem the vast evil that those entitties do. They have no reasons for what they do other than selfishness. Its like calling the Paedophille down the road a decent bloke because he bought you a beer sometimes in the past.
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Post by: Melissia
Crimson wrote: Melissia wrote: Twisting "good" emotions in to evil ones doesn't make them less evil . Arguably, it makes them MORE evil.
And Imperium's good quality of protecting humanity is twisted into oppressive fascist dystopia.
If it wasn't an oppressive dystopia (I dispute that it's fascist; that entails a set of values not necessarily shown by the Imperium), it'd have fallen to the traitors of Chaos long ago. Just look at the Great Crusade and what happened when idealism and rationalism was relied upon then. 40k is not a nice place to live in. It's a horrible place by default. It isn't the Imperium that is necessarily held in high esteem, but the heroes and saints that keep the Imperium running, that grant a little bit of light in the darkness of the everyday lives of a person in 40k. The "heroes" of Chaos, meanwhile, actively seek to turn their worlds in to living nightmares for the sake of turning their worlds in to living nightmares.
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Post by: sierra 1247
[ Which is quickly forgotten in a storm of blood and bone, and ritual sacrifice of the innocent as their skulls are piled on high.
The first casualty of war is innocence, this entire setting is an unforgiving universe where the slightest mistake will see you killed and slaughtered in horrific manners. In hindsight being butchered by some Khornate bezerkers would be much less painless than the constant mutation from Tzeentch and the "stuff" that Slaanesh would do to you..
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Post by: Melissia
That's assuming the berserkers get to you. But you could simply be rounded up to be a painful blood sacrifice as your soul is devoured by daemons to grant cultists power instead.
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Post by: Crimson
Melissia wrote:
The "heroes" of Chaos, meanwhile, actively seek to turn their worlds in to living nightmares for the sake of turning their worlds in to living nightmares.
But you only think that's bad because of your limited perspective. What you call living nightmare is resplendent manifestation of divine to the followers of Chaos.
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Post by: iGuy91
Chaos falls into the realm of "chaotic evil" the only thing the respect is strength and accomplishments. You can do as you wish, as long as the will of your stronger superiors is not impinged. The Imperium falls into the realm of "Lawful Evil/Lawful Neutral" They do what they must to maintain their domination by authoritarian means. Some Parts are more evil and others more neutral. The dark eldar are Neutral Evil by definition, and are by far the most terrifying, seeking to actively go out and do evil and cause pain. This page adaquately explains this if you read the definitions. http://easydamus.com/alignment.html
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Post by: GorillaWarfare
If you don't think Chaos is evil enough to justify the Imperium's brutal policies, then you are not imaging something evil enough.
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Post by: clively
In a grimdark universe where there is only war I'd say that the least "evil" faction is the one that is totally honest with itself and it's members.
That would be chaos.
Everyone else are lying d*bags. At least with Chaos you *know* their goal is the obliteration or enslavement of all others.
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Post by: Tyran
clively wrote:In a grimdark universe where there is only war I'd say that the least "evil" faction is the one that is totally honest with itself and it's members.
That would be chaos.
Everyone else are lying d*bags. At least with Chaos you *know* their goal is the obliteration or enslavement of all others.
Tyranids and Orks are more "honest" than Chaos.
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Post by: illuknisaa
The difference between good and evil is very small.
There are two goat herder. Both have 2 goats but the next day one herder gains a third goat while the other does not. If the other herder is good he wishes he would also get a goat but if he is evil he wishes the other herder loses a goat.
Imperium spends it's entire existance enslaving and eradiating the unclean/xenos. The imperium is filled with hate and has always been. This lead to the creation of chaos which mirrors emotions of the imperium.
Chaos is nothing but manifestation of emotions. Emotions may lead to evil things but no emotion is evil. Only actions can be evil. If a person is fully lead by emotions (ie the person is hopelessly in love with someone) is that person responsible of his or her actions?
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Post by: Tyran
illuknisaa wrote:The difference between good and evil is very small.
There are two goat herder. Both have 2 goats but the next day one herder gains a third goat while the other does not. If the other herder is good he wishes he would also get a goat but if he is evil he wishes the other herder loses a goat.
Imperium spends it's entire existance enslaving and eradiating the unclean/xenos. The imperium is filled with hate and has always been. This lead to the creation of chaos which mirrors emotions of the imperium.
Chaos is nothing but manifestation of emotions. Emotions may lead to evil things but no emotion is evil. Only actions can be evil. If a person is fully lead by emotions (ie the person is hopelessly in love with someone) is that person responsible of his or her actions?
Yes he/she is.
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Post by: gaovinni
Sure they are bad guys but to me the Dark Eldar seem way more evil and sinister in the end than Chaos does.
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Post by: Tyran
 gaovinni wrote:Sure they are bad guys but to me the Dark Eldar seem way more evil and sinister in the end than Chaos does.
Chaos is evil by nature, DE are evil just to be dicks.
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Post by: illuknisaa
Tyran wrote: illuknisaa wrote:The difference between good and evil is very small.
There are two goat herder. Both have 2 goats but the next day one herder gains a third goat while the other does not. If the other herder is good he wishes he would also get a goat but if he is evil he wishes the other herder loses a goat.
Imperium spends it's entire existance enslaving and eradiating the unclean/xenos. The imperium is filled with hate and has always been. This lead to the creation of chaos which mirrors emotions of the imperium.
Chaos is nothing but manifestation of emotions. Emotions may lead to evil things but no emotion is evil. Only actions can be evil. If a person is fully lead by emotions (ie the person is hopelessly in love with someone) is that person responsible of his or her actions?
Yes he/she is.
In our society (ie not 40k) many mental illnesses makes you unfit to be judged because we cannot control or even understand ourselves. Emotions and insticts are also something we cannot control. Why should we be judged by our emotions or instincs?
Tyran wrote: gaovinni wrote:Sure they are bad guys but to me the Dark Eldar seem way more evil and sinister in the end than Chaos does.
Chaos is evil by nature, DE are evil just to be dicks.
So DE are less evil because they chose evil over good? It's like you are saying a person that voluntary murders someone is less evil than a person has know nothing but murder through his whole life.
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Post by: sing your life
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Post by: BladeSwinga
Tyran wrote: gaovinni wrote:Sure they are bad guys but to me the Dark Eldar seem way more evil and sinister in the end than Chaos does.
Chaos is evil by nature, DE are evil just to be dicks.
DE must inflict pain to survive, same as you or I need to eat. The DE's nature has twisted to the point where they are evil by it. With the probable exception of Khorne, you could further the ways of your gods without resorting to what everyone is damning as 'evil' acts. Chaos is not evil by nature, but the seemingly easiest way of worship is violence. What also needs to be kept in mind is that these are gods and practices developed for a wargame. Most civilian life we hear about is Imperial, and even the CSM codex is told from the point of view of the Imperium. There will be a considerable amount of bias against Chaos, because they were designed to be antagonists. While this skewed lens is in place, it'd make sense for a lot of people to be vehemently against Chaos. I'm not claiming that they are saints, but they do have good qualities as discussed earlier in the thread.
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Post by: Tyran
illuknisaa wrote:Tyran wrote: illuknisaa wrote:The difference between good and evil is very small. There are two goat herder. Both have 2 goats but the next day one herder gains a third goat while the other does not. If the other herder is good he wishes he would also get a goat but if he is evil he wishes the other herder loses a goat. Imperium spends it's entire existance enslaving and eradiating the unclean/xenos. The imperium is filled with hate and has always been. This lead to the creation of chaos which mirrors emotions of the imperium. Chaos is nothing but manifestation of emotions. Emotions may lead to evil things but no emotion is evil. Only actions can be evil. If a person is fully lead by emotions (ie the person is hopelessly in love with someone) is that person responsible of his or her actions?
Yes he/she is.
In our society (ie not 40k) many mental illnesses makes you unfit to be judged because we cannot control or even understand ourselves. Emotions and insticts are also something we cannot control. Why should we be judged by our emotions or instincs?
You can't be judged on your emotions or instincts, but you can be judged if you act upon them. Tyran wrote: gaovinni wrote:Sure they are bad guys but to me the Dark Eldar seem way more evil and sinister in the end than Chaos does.
Chaos is evil by nature, DE are evil just to be dicks.
So DE are less evil because they chose evil over good? It's like you are saying a person that voluntary murders someone is less evil than a person has know nothing but murder through his whole life.
Actually there I wanted to say the opposite.
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Post by: Melissia
Crimson wrote:But you only think that's bad because of your limited perspective.
No, it's a living nightmare from their perspective, too. They fully admit that turning all planets in to a living hell, causing everyone to suffer and die horrible deaths and have their souls consumed in incredibly painful ways by daemons is their goal. It's kind of silly watching people defend someone who is not only obviously evil, but REVELS in being evil. They're evil and they love it and admit it and glorify it. I'm fairly certain that they'd kill you for suggesting that they are insufficiently evil.
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Post by: Tyran
BladeSwinga wrote: Tyran wrote: gaovinni wrote:Sure they are bad guys but to me the Dark Eldar seem way more evil and sinister in the end than Chaos does.
Chaos is evil by nature, DE are evil just to be dicks.
DE must inflict pain to survive, same as you or I need to eat. The DE's nature has twisted to the point where they are evil by it. With the probable exception of Khorne, you could further the ways of your gods without resorting to what everyone is damning as 'evil' acts. Chaos is not evil by nature, but the seemingly easiest way of worship is violence. What also needs to be kept in mind is that these are gods and practices developed for a wargame. Most civilian life we hear about is Imperial, and even the CSM codex is told from the point of view of the Imperium. There will be a considerable amount of bias against Chaos, because they were designed to be antagonists. While this skewed lens is in place, it'd make sense for a lot of people to be vehemently against Chaos. I'm not claiming that they are saints, but they do have good qualities as discussed earlier in the thread.
DE could simply go the Craftworld way, but they refuse to do that.
As for Chaos, while it encompass things that aren't evil, it eventually corrupts them. Automatically Appended Next Post: Melissia wrote: Crimson wrote:But you only think that's bad because of your limited perspective.
No, it's a living nightmare from their perspective, too.
They fully admit that turning all planets in to a living hell, causing everyone to suffer and die horrible deaths and have their souls consumed in incredibly painful ways by daemons is their goal.
It's kind of silly watching people defend someone who is not only obviously evil, but REVELS in being evil. They're evil and they love it and admit it and glorify it.
To be fair, Chaos is far funnier and more interesting that the IoM.
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Post by: Melissia
Tyran wrote:To be fair, Chaos is far funnier and more interesting that the IoM.
I find the Imperium of man far more interesting. Oddly enough, the Imperium is also far more varied than Chaos is, as well.
As for funny, I don't go to 40k for laughs. But if I did, I wouldn't go to the forces of Chaos for it. I'd watch some Orks 
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Post by: Tyran
Melissia wrote: Tyran wrote:To be fair, Chaos is far funnier and more interesting that the IoM.
I find the Imperium of man far more interesting. Oddly enough, the Imperium is also far more varied than Chaos is, as well.
As for funny, I don't go to 40k for laughs. But if I did, I wouldn't go to the forces of Chaos for it. I'd watch some Orks
Fair enough, I'm in 40k for the Nids.
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Post by: Crimson
I think Chaos worshippers are mostly happy bunch. World Eaters have great time when they butcher some poor bastards, and of course pleasure is the whole point of Slaanesh. So it works for them. Sure it means some unlucky sods gets horribly sacrificed or few planets get eaten by daemons, but you know, eggs, omelets.
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Post by: Kain
Crimson wrote:Or maybe because Chaos is reflection of human psyches, and most humans live in a horrible fascist hell-hole, the evilness of chaos is indirectly caused by inhuman attitudes of the Imperium?
Chaos being horrible dates back to the War in Heaven where the turmoil of the millions upon millions of years of increasingly desperate warfare to stop the Necron advance resulted in more and more highly psychic races mucking up everything warpside. The current face of Chaos is influenced primarily by Humans and Eldar primarily because they're the flavor of the month while other factions either have their own gods that hog the lions share of their power or are too minor/unconnected to the warp as we know it to contribute.
As for Chaos.
The Mortal followers of Chaos have quotes like "do evil for evil's sake". They know they're doing wrong, and they love every second of it.
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Post by: Tyran
Maybe we should separate Chaos in the mortal/ex-mortal followers and the immortal host.
The followers are evil for evil sake, the Daemons and Gods are evil because it is in their nature.
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Post by: Kain
Tyran wrote:Maybe we should separate Chaos in the mortal/ex-mortal followers and the immortal host.
The followers are evil for evil sake, the Daemons and Gods are evil because it is in their nature.
I'd honestly still label Daemonkind with an evil label ( TM of the Doom corporation), much like how Demons, Devils, and Yugoloths are labeled as such in D&D even though they're innately evil (to the point of being manifestations of various kinds of evil) and can't really do anything about it in D&D.
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Post by: Psienesis
The Daemons are expressions of their patron god's mindset, or are aspects of the Warp itself coalesced into some sort of sentient form.
While they can't really help but be what they are, as they exist simply *because* they are formed from a specific set of emotional energy, that does not make them any more or less evil in the setting.
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Post by: TheDungen
Chaos is power it's as good or evil as the one who wields it, yes it will turn you insane in time, but not because it's evil but because it's random and powerful. As for the gods they are just a psychic footprint of mankind, they arent even alive, no really so I don't see how they could be good or evil either. As for daemons all power is volatile, daemons are just the warp counterpart to a lighting strike.
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Post by: Flinty
Nids are amoral and hungry. They just want to replicate and are not trying to break the barriers between dimensions and mes with reality.
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Post by: Troike
Crimson wrote:I think Chaos worshippers are mostly happy bunch. World Eaters have great time when they butcher some poor bastards, and of course pleasure is the whole point of Slaanesh.
Maybe at first, but Khorne and Slaanesh are probably the two greatest examples of how worshiping Chaos will leave you a mess. Khornate worshipers? Will eventually deteriorate into gibbering madmen, never happy unless they're spilling blood. Slaaneshi? The sex and drugs will be great at tfirst, but eventually it'll stop being enough, and they'll have to go to greater and greater excesses to get that same feeling of pleasure, and will probably feel like gak when they're not commiting some massively excessive act. Essentially, you'll be left a shell of your former self, only really enjoying whatever that god's particular obsession is.
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Post by: OminusMarine
If you want true evil, look to the Necrons. A race that was being slaughtered and enslaved, sold their bodies and souls to the C'tan, and then went around the galaxy killing and conquering everything that wasn't Necrontyr. All to get back at the Old Ones.
They could care less about the powers of the Warp, as is depicted in many novels and fluff.
I think Chaos is evil, but they are just as many have stated, manifestations of emotions from beings throughout the galaxy into another demension.
After all of the BL books and fluff I've read, I'd say both the Imperium of Man and the Forces of Chaos are evil.
...Except Ultramar, those people work to better mankind.
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Post by: Kain
 OminusMarine wrote:If you want true evil, look to the Necrons. A race that was being slaughtered and enslaved, sold their bodies and souls to the C'tan, and then went around the galaxy killing and conquering everything that wasn't Necrontyr. All to get back at the Old Ones.
They could care less about the powers of the Warp, as is depicted in many novels and fluff.
I think Chaos is evil, but they are just as many have stated, manifestations of emotions from beings throughout the galaxy into another demension.
After all of the BL books and fluff I've read, I'd say both the Imperium of Man and the Forces of Chaos are evil.
...Except Ultramar, those people work to better mankind.
Only Chaos and the Dark Eldar do evil for evil's sake.
And the Necrons do have some pathos, their lives were short, brutish, full of excruciating pain and misery and the Old Ones were kicking it with disease free immortality and the Old Ones just blew off the Necrontyr.
And there is nothing the Necrons have ever done that can measure up to the Daemonculabba.
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Post by: Wilytank
Crimson wrote:I think Chaos worshippers are mostly happy bunch. World Eaters have great time when they butcher some poor bastards, and of course pleasure is the whole point of Slaanesh. So it works for them.
That sounds like the kind of thing a serial killer or a rapist would say to justify their actions.
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Post by: Tyran
OminusMarine wrote:If you want true evil, look to the Necrons. A race that was being slaughtered and enslaved, sold their bodies and souls to the C'tan, and then went around the galaxy killing and conquering everything that wasn't Necrontyr. All to get back at the Old Ones.
They could care less about the powers of the Warp, as is depicted in many novels and fluff.
I think Chaos is evil, but they are just as many have stated, manifestations of emotions from beings throughout the galaxy into another demension.
After all of the BL books and fluff I've read, I'd say both the Imperium of Man and the Forces of Chaos are evil.
...Except Ultramar, those people work to better mankind.
And then Ward retconned them into Space-Pinocchio.
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Post by: Blackhair Duckshape
Tyran wrote:\
And then Ward retconned them into Space-Pinocchio.
I'd take Space-Pinocchio over Robo-Tyranids any day.
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Post by: Isengard
I would ask myself the question "what can you positively gain from chaos"?
I can see negative reasons to turn to chaos, e.g. to gain some sense of independence from the oppression of the empire, as a kind of rebellion, etc.
There is nothing positive to gain, perhaps some fleeting improvement of martial prowess from Khorne or some very brief pleasure from Slaanesh but then it's all downhill into madness and mutation.
Even becoming a daemon prince has many, many negative, you are a slave to chaos and tied into the warp.
I just can't see any genuine upside, if you want to be ridden with foul decay, devolve into a perverse degenerate or a ravening murderer, or mutated into oblivion, ok.
It's evil and a very clear example of evil, which is very obvious from the setting and fluff, although they've really toned down the mutation elements over the years. It used ot be that all chaos worshippers had extensive mutations, including CSM who now don't seem mutated in general.
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Post by: Tyran
Isengard wrote:I would ask myself the question "what can you positively gain from chaos"?
I can see negative reasons to turn to chaos, e.g. to gain some sense of independence from the oppression of the empire, as a kind of rebellion, etc.
There is nothing positive to gain, perhaps some fleeting improvement of martial prowess from Khorne or some very brief pleasure from Slaanesh but then it's all downhill into madness and mutation.
Even becoming a daemon prince has many, many negative, you are a slave to chaos and tied into the warp.
I just can't see any genuine upside, if you want to be ridden with foul decay, devolve into a perverse degenerate or a ravening murderer, or mutated into oblivion, ok.
It's evil and a very clear example of evil, which is very obvious from the setting and fluff, although they've really toned down the mutation elements over the years. It used ot be that all chaos worshippers had extensive mutations, including CSM who now don't seem mutated in general.
It gives power, freedom and the possibility of immortality. Plus is in the nature of many people to seek something greater than themselves, and the GEOM is somewhat lame in comparison with the Chaos Gods when it comes to being a God. Automatically Appended Next Post: Also, Chaos followers tend to be happier than the Loyalist ones.
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Post by: Troike
Tyran wrote:It gives power, freedom and the possibility of immortality
Eh, all of those are very debatable. Power? Only if you distinguish yourslef enough, which as an expendable mook, will be hard to do. At best, you're canon fodder. If if you do do well, you can still be bumped off by rivals or just made into a Spawn on a whim. Freedom? Hardly. You're just the plaything og the gods. If you happen to go against any of their ideals, you'll be disowned. There's also the small matter of the rampant mutations and corruption, neither of which you get a say in. As for immortality, same as power. Your chances of being granted Daemonhood are pretty slim, really. Your soul might get recycled into becoming a regular Daemon when you die, I guess, but then are you really yourself?
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Post by: Tyran
Troike wrote: Tyran wrote:It gives power, freedom and the possibility of immortality
Eh, all of those are very debatable. Power? Only if you distinguish yourslef enough, which as an expendable mook, will be hard to do. At best, you're canon fodder. If if you do do well, you can still be bumped off by rivals or just made into a Spawn on a whim. Freedom? Hardly. You're just the plaything og the gods. If you happen to go against any of their ideals, you'll be disowned. There's also the small matter of the rampant mutations and corruption, neither of which you get a say in. As for immortality, same as power. Your chances of being granted Daemonhood are pretty slim, really. Your soul might get recycled into becoming a regular Daemon when you die, I guess, but then are you really yourself?
Is still better than what the Imperium promises.
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Post by: raiden
imperium promises you a death in the name of the emperor
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Post by: Wilytank
Tyran wrote:Is still better than what the Imperium promises.
Why does being anti-Imperium mean you're pro-Chaos?
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Post by: raiden
because thats wh40k  if your anti Imperium your chaos, lol. but on a more factual note, a normal man will not live long if he is not working with the Chaos or the Big E
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Post by: Tyran
I'm anti-both, GO NIDS!!! 
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Post by: Wilytank
raiden wrote:because thats wh40k if your anti Imperium your chaos, lol. but on a more factual note, a normal man will not live long if he is not working with the Chaos or the Big E
How about the Space Marines though? The Iron Warriors in particular seem like whiny wusses after they massacred people on their own homeworld? Perturabo just had to team up with Horus? Is there not something more noble they could have done to redeem themselves?
Then there's the Soul Drinkers who I'm liking more and more the more I find out about them. They're anti-Imperium and anti-Chaos. They go as far as to say that the Imperium is the worst thing to happen to the human race and has totally gone against everything the Emperor has stood for.
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Post by: raiden
again, marines are different a normal MAN would not last long, (those marines also have few to no friends to help them)
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Post by: Tyran
Aren't the Soul Drinkers pretty much wiped out thanks to a Chaos corruption within their ranks?
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Post by: Wilytank
Tyran wrote:Aren't the Soul Drinkers pretty much wiped out thanks to a Chaos corruption within their ranks?
You tell me. I haven't read their novels.
Regardless, I'm unconvinced that there's any positive aspect to Chaos. Reading the 6th edition Daemon codex, I have found nothing that suggests anything that could put the gods in a good light. They're malevolent entities that want nothing more than to have the galaxy burn.
As a new Daemon player myself, I like them better this way.
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Post by: Tyran
 Wilytank wrote: Tyran wrote:Aren't the Soul Drinkers pretty much wiped out thanks to a Chaos corruption within their ranks?
You tell me. I haven't read their novels. Regardless, I'm unconvinced that there's any positive aspect to Chaos. Reading the 6th edition Daemon codex, I have found nothing that suggests anything that could put the gods in a good light. They're malevolent entities that want nothing more than to have the galaxy burn. As a new Daemon player myself, I like them better this way.
After a quick Google search, yep, they are an extinct Chapter. As for Chaos, yes it is evil. But I still believe that it is more fun to be Chaos than to be Loyalist. But I'm a Great Sky Mother servant myself, and both Chaos and Loyalist are a tasty breakfast
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Post by: djz05
Kain wrote: OminusMarine wrote:If you want true evil, look to the Necrons. A race that was being slaughtered and enslaved, sold their bodies and souls to the C'tan, and then went around the galaxy killing and conquering everything that wasn't Necrontyr. All to get back at the Old Ones.
They could care less about the powers of the Warp, as is depicted in many novels and fluff.
I think Chaos is evil, but they are just as many have stated, manifestations of emotions from beings throughout the galaxy into another demension.
After all of the BL books and fluff I've read, I'd say both the Imperium of Man and the Forces of Chaos are evil.
...Except Ultramar, those people work to better mankind.
Only Chaos and the Dark Eldar do evil for evil's sake.
And the Necrons do have some pathos, their lives were short, brutish, full of excruciating pain and misery and the Old Ones were kicking it with disease free immortality and the Old Ones just blew off the Necrontyr.
And there is nothing the Necrons have ever done that can measure up to the Daemonculabba.
Just imagining the way the Daemonculabba works makes me shiver. Makes it much worse than the experiments in Unit 731 during WW2.
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Post by: techsoldaten
Mmmm... Chaos has always been the eviler of the many evils of the 40k universe.
It's hard to say that they are worse than the other factions, given the fact the Imperium is an intergalactic fascist regime, the Necrons literally want to destroy all life, the Orks covet war as a pasttime, the Eldar have no problem killing a planet to avoid a possible future, etc. Everybody's bad in 40k.
What makes Chaos evil-er is their dark gods. All of them want to fundamentally destroy the universe in fundamental ways, and I guess that's what really makes them bad.
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Post by: Tyran
 techsoldaten wrote:Mmmm... Chaos has always been the eviler of the many evils of the 40k universe.
It's hard to say that they are worse than the other factions, given the fact the Imperium is an intergalactic fascist regime, the Necrons literally want to destroy all life, the Orks covet war as a pasttime, the Eldar have no problem killing a planet to avoid a possible future, etc. Everybody's bad in 40k.
What makes Chaos evil-er is their dark gods. All of them want to fundamentally destroy the universe in fundamental ways, and I guess that's what really makes them bad.
They don't really want to destroy the universe, just corrupt it and probably fusion it with the Immaterium. Personally I found the DE more evil. They do everything Slaanesh do, except they have an alternative to be fething evil.
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Post by: Melissia
That's like saying "genocide is neither good nor evil, it's how you do it."
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Post by: Tyran
Melissia wrote:That's like saying "genocide is neither good nor evil, it's how you do it."
With style. 
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Post by: shinros
The thing is its never bad at first but then it turns bad. I mean this is 40k all the factions are evil in some form I mean if the imperium was just fine and dandy you would not have millions converting to chaos everyday. Well at first they may enjoy it but then they realize chaos is just as bad as the imperium but once someone realizes it they are already damned so they just keep going with chaos for the chance for power.
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Post by: Wilytank
shinros wrote:The thing is its never bad at first but then it turns bad. I mean this is 40k all the factions are evil in some form I mean if the imperium was just fine and dandy you would not have millions converting to chaos everyday. Well at first they may enjoy it but then they realize chaos is just as bad as the imperium but once someone realizes it they are already damned so they just keep going with chaos for the chance for power.
How about the lowly guardsman who's already in the army so he's going to stick with it anyway in hopes he doesn't die and live long enough to achieve veteran status? Sounds like the same thing to me.
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Post by: Melissia
The Imperial Guard is nowhere near as immoral/amoral as Chaos.
I would even argue that the Imperial Guard is actually a surprisingly ethical army, considering the setting.
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Post by: Tyran
Something people seems to be forgetting is the corruption nature of Chaos. It is actually very probable that the corruption started even before you became aware of Chaos. Automatically Appended Next Post: Melissia wrote:The Imperial Guard is nowhere near as immoral/amoral as Chaos.
I would even argue that the Imperial Guard is actually a surprisingly ethical army, considering the setting.
Considering that the usual IG response to something is throw more bodies to it...
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Post by: shinros
Wilytank wrote:shinros wrote:The thing is its never bad at first but then it turns bad. I mean this is 40k all the factions are evil in some form I mean if the imperium was just fine and dandy you would not have millions converting to chaos everyday. Well at first they may enjoy it but then they realize chaos is just as bad as the imperium but once someone realizes it they are already damned so they just keep going with chaos for the chance for power.
How about the lowly guardsman who's already in the army so he's going to stick with it anyway in hopes he doesn't die and live long enough to achieve veteran status? Sounds like the same thing to me.
Then I say good luck to him cause we all know what a guardmans life expectancy is. Considering that just like chaos the higher ups don't mind spending their lives like a bullet. Its really rare that a chaos god likes a human enough to bring up back to life or they have pseudo-daemonhood like that slaaneshi pskyer in the the ciphas cain novels.
All I am saying that most people who turn the chaos in my opinion do not start like hahahahaha i am evil! Normally they play on the chaos gods positive aspects for example a guardmans killing his enemies with extreme hatred nothing is wrong with that by the imperium standards hate the witch, mutant bla bla. Problem is this person will attract khorne's attention. Or someone who is suffering from an illness nurgle may help them out but we all know what happens at the end of this.
But then it gets worse since their will starts to become overrieded by that of their god and thats when the craziness starts. Personally I don't like it when people say one faction is ONLY evil or is only good. Since the lore is not written like that IMO. No one falls to chaos just to be evil.
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Post by: Wilytank
shinros wrote: Wilytank wrote:shinros wrote:The thing is its never bad at first but then it turns bad. I mean this is 40k all the factions are evil in some form I mean if the imperium was just fine and dandy you would not have millions converting to chaos everyday. Well at first they may enjoy it but then they realize chaos is just as bad as the imperium but once someone realizes it they are already damned so they just keep going with chaos for the chance for power.
How about the lowly guardsman who's already in the army so he's going to stick with it anyway in hopes he doesn't die and live long enough to achieve veteran status? Sounds like the same thing to me.
Then I say good luck to him cause we all know what a guardmans life expectancy is. Considering that just like chaos the higher ups don't mind spending their lives like a bullet. Its really rare that a chaos god likes a human enough to bring up back to life or they have pseudo-daemonhood like that slaaneshi pskyer in the the ciphas cain novels.
All I am saying that most people who turn the chaos in my opinion do not start like hahahahaha i am evil! Normally they play on the chaos gods positive aspects for example a guardmans killing his enemies with extreme hatred nothing is wrong with that by the imperium standards hate the witch, mutant bla bla. Problem is this person will attract khorne's attention. Or someone who is suffering from an illness nurgle may help them out but we all know what happens at the end of this.
The life expectancy of the guardsman and the life expectancy of a cultist are probably just about the same. The latter is just counting days before the Inquisition/Space Marines/Sororitas come busting down their door, lining them up along a wall with their friends and executed.
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Post by: MetalOxide
Each Chaos Space Marine has their own personal reason for falling to the allure of the Chaos Gods and that is what drew me to collecting them.
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Post by: SYKOJAK
Chaos are the worst, most malignant being in the whole universe. Biggest reason is because they tear up the Imperium of man from within the inside.
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Post by: Happyjew
SYKOJAK wrote:Chaos are the worst, most malignant being in the whole universe. Biggest reason is because they tear up the Imperium of man from within the inside.
Of course that is assuming that the IoM is "good".
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Post by: MetalOxide
SYKOJAK wrote:Chaos are the worst, most malignant being in the whole universe. Biggest reason is because they tear up the Imperium of man from within the inside.
The Imperium of man is hardly good, countless human souls are sacrificed for the corpse-god.
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Post by: Psienesis
Whereas, with Chaos, countless human souls are sacrificed for the Ruinous Powers of the Warp.
Six of one, half-dozen of the other.
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Post by: Melissia
Actually I'd say the Imperium is still a little more moral there anyway. Only those psykers too weak-minded and thus too dangerous to be trusted to handle psychic powers are fed to the beacon; and only do it because it is necessary both for the safety of the Imperium and to power the Astronomican.
With Chaos, they particularly delight in sacrificing innocents, children, and love forcing cruel sacrifices on others, and often make the sacrifices for their own sakes. Even when it's "necessary", it's almost always only for the sake of their own personal power, and screw everyone else.
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Post by: xruslanx
Chaos is the destroyer of humanity within human culture. There's a reason that people would rather live in an organised tyrany than a horrific chaotic mess - just look at Syria right now. Assad may have been a bastard, but his rule was far better than a devestating civil war which is destroying the country and killing huge numbers of people.
Chaos is simply the embodiment of that breakdown of society. Individual events may not be "evil" per se, it's simply the nature of how those elements are organised - chaotically. Automatically Appended Next Post:  MetalOxide wrote:SYKOJAK wrote:Chaos are the worst, most malignant being in the whole universe. Biggest reason is because they tear up the Imperium of man from within the inside.
The Imperium of man is hardly good, countless human souls are sacrificed for the corpse-god.
Tens of thousands of people right here on earth die every year in industry. Mining in particular has killing millions of men since the industrial revulution, just so that people can have electricity and the mine-owners can make money. Still today tens of thousands of people die in instustry purely so that they can make goods for people to consume.
Given that, do you really think the Imperium is evil for killing a tiny, tiny amount of people within the imperium, in order to stop all of humanity from being destroyed? That's not evil dude.
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Post by: shinros
xruslanx wrote:Chaos is the destroyer of humanity within human culture. There's a reason that people would rather live in an organised tyrany than a horrific chaotic mess - just look at Syria right now. Assad may have been a bastard, but his rule was far better than a devestating civil war which is destroying the country and killing huge numbers of people.
Chaos is simply the embodiment of that breakdown of society. Individual events may not be "evil" per se, it's simply the nature of how those elements are organised - chaotically.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
MetalOxide wrote:SYKOJAK wrote:Chaos are the worst, most malignant being in the whole universe. Biggest reason is because they tear up the Imperium of man from within the inside.
The Imperium of man is hardly good, countless human souls are sacrificed for the corpse-god.
Tens of thousands of people right here on earth die every year in industry. Mining in particular has killing millions of men since the industrial revulution, just so that people can have electricity and the mine-owners can make money. Still today tens of thousands of people die in instustry purely so that they can make goods for people to consume.
Given that, do you really think the Imperium is evil for killing a tiny, tiny amount of people within the imperium, in order to stop all of humanity from being destroyed? That's not evil dude.
I have to fundamentally disagree with the bold part if this was the case people falling to chaos would not be an issue. Considering how hard the imperium works to route out heresy shows that the the imperium is not fine and dandy. As I said most people who fall to chaos do not do it just to be evil or just to be an evil cackling villain. Reading loads of the black libary novels were the imperium is the protagonist I constantly see reasons why one may fall to chaos.
Now onto the 1000 psyker thing personally I feel if the imperium got over their stagnate view of technology the would not have to sacrifice psykers in the first place. Since the imperium is the sheer opposite of change this will never happen.
Plus as I said if people were fine living under the imperium corruption and people falling to chaos would not be a huge issue. The imperiums very laws that helps prevent corruption causes people to fall in the first place which is the sad fact. The whole point of 40k is that no one is "good" reading the uplifting primer is funny and horrific at the same time and reading the sisters of battle codex I would not want to live near these women. Also I just shake my head at the repentia squad personally I feel sorry for em.
Plus what do you think the imperium does to planets who do not wish to join them and worship the emperor? There is no good here only war, slaughter, people sacrificing others to their gods and oppression. Hence why this is my favorite quote.
"There is no peace amongst the stars, only an eternity of carnage and slaughter, and the laughter of thirsting gods."
As happy jew said there is no "good", good died in warhammer 40k heck if the imperium is fine and "good" we would not have human planets joining the tau and refusing to return to the imperium.
Plus the chaos gods don't have to do anything because the imperium and their followers is doing their job for them. While reading sisters of battle fluff and playing them in soulstorm khorne must be grinning constantly watching these girls go. When you beat the tau the cannoness is offerring up the ethereal skull to the emperor. I simply sighed since that skull is not going to the emperor lol I don't even think he can accept skulls.
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Post by: Insane Smile
This thread smells of heresy... *BLAM!*
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Post by: xruslanx
shinros wrote:xruslanx wrote:Chaos is the destroyer of humanity within human culture. There's a reason that people would rather live in an organised tyrany than a horrific chaotic mess - just look at Syria right now. Assad may have been a bastard, but his rule was far better than a devestating civil war which is destroying the country and killing huge numbers of people.
Chaos is simply the embodiment of that breakdown of society. Individual events may not be "evil" per se, it's simply the nature of how those elements are organised - chaotically.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
MetalOxide wrote:SYKOJAK wrote:Chaos are the worst, most malignant being in the whole universe. Biggest reason is because they tear up the Imperium of man from within the inside.
The Imperium of man is hardly good, countless human souls are sacrificed for the corpse-god.
Tens of thousands of people right here on earth die every year in industry. Mining in particular has killing millions of men since the industrial revulution, just so that people can have electricity and the mine-owners can make money. Still today tens of thousands of people die in instustry purely so that they can make goods for people to consume.
Given that, do you really think the Imperium is evil for killing a tiny, tiny amount of people within the imperium, in order to stop all of humanity from being destroyed? That's not evil dude.
I have to fundamentally disagree with the bold part if this was the case people falling to chaos would not be an issue. Considering how hard the imperium works to route out heresy shows that the the imperium is not fine and dandy. As I said most people who fall to chaos do not do it just to be evil or just to be an evil cackling villain. Reading loads of the black libary novels were the imperium is the protagonist I constantly see reasons why one may fall to chaos.
Now onto the 1000 psyker thing personally I feel if the imperium got over their stagnate view of technology the would not have to sacrifice psykers in the first place. Since the imperium is the sheer opposite of change this will never happen.
Plus as I said if people were fine living under the imperium corruption and people falling to chaos would not be a huge issue. The imperiums very laws that helps prevent corruption causes people to fall in the first place which is the sad fact. The whole point of 40k is that no one is "good" reading the uplifting primer is funny and horrific at the same time and reading the sisters of battle codex I would not want to live near these women. Also I just shake my head at the repentia squad personally I feel sorry for em.
Plus what do you think the imperium does to planets who do not wish to join them and worship the emperor? There is no good here only war, slaughter, people sacrificing others to their gods and oppression. Hence why this is my favorite quote.
"There is no peace amongst the stars, only an eternity of carnage and slaughter, and the laughter of thirsting gods."
As happy jew said there is no "good", good died in warhammer 40k heck if the imperium is fine and "good" we would not have human planets joining the tau and refusing to return to the imperium.
Plus the chaos gods don't have to do anything because the imperium and their followers is doing their job for them. While reading sisters of battle fluff and playing them in soulstorm khorne must be grinning constantly watching these girls go. When you beat the tau the cannoness is offerring up the ethereal skull to the emperor. I simply sighed since that skull is not going to the emperor lol I don't even think he can accept skulls.
I didn't say that the imperium was "fine and dandy". Surely it should be obvious that the Imperium is less chaotic than chaos?
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Post by: Insane Smile
This is what happens when I try to make a joke, I'll leave with my head low now.
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Post by: xruslanx
...you can buy a 2 kilo bar of chocolate in America? D:
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Post by: Whiskered
Personally I see each faction in wh 40 k as neutral, they are good for them selves and bad for others. Each faction is made up of millions of individuals which varies entirely so it is hard to say that a given faction is bad or good.
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Post by: MetalOxide
All of the 40k factions have different levels of Evilness, Chaos is one of the most evil.
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Post by: AirborneTank
Chaos are evil to some extent, but it seems that they usually tend to really threaten and roar about not really doing anything.
What I mean is that they are too cocky. Look at the Black Crusades for example. Took Chaos 13 goes to finally establish a foothold on Imperial territory, despite their mighty Gods, their so-called "sick" powers etc.
In combat, Chaos are more like tactical retards, almost like Orks. They just charge at you, maybe incorporate some cunning, but most of the time, come at you with brute force and fail, depending which race they go up against them.
The likes of Tyranids or even the Necrons are much more menacing than Chaos. They the job done. Chaos has all them daemons but you know it's bad when mortal humans can pwn them.
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Post by: Psienesis
Of course you can. How did you think we became such huge fatasses? By God, American Ingenuity had to get involved! We *had* to develop ways to shovel calories into our sedentary bodies faster and more efficiently!
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Post by: Kain
 Whiskered wrote:Personally I see each faction in wh 40 k as neutral, they are good for them selves and bad for others. Each faction is made up of millions of individuals which varies entirely so it is hard to say that a given faction is bad or good.
This is like saying that there were positives to Hitler's regime. Sure he helped the German economy, but the bad far outweighs the negative. And even the Tau make Hitler look like a saint in comparison.
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Post by: Brother Payne
What about the Alpha Legion? They're chaos but work to liberate the galaxy by destroying chaos with chaos. Does that not make them "good" chaos?
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Post by: Kain
Brother Payne wrote:What about the Alpha Legion? They're chaos but work to liberate the galaxy by destroying chaos with chaos. Does that not make them "good" chaos?
Does being a nazi to the nazis while being a nazi yourself cancel out your naziness?
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Post by: Happyjew
Kain wrote:Brother Payne wrote:What about the Alpha Legion? They're chaos but work to liberate the galaxy by destroying chaos with chaos. Does that not make them "good" chaos?
Does being a nazi to the nazis while being a nazi yourself cancel out your naziness?
Only if you are from the dark side of the moon and fly zeppelins in space.
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Post by: Brother Payne
 Happyjew wrote: Kain wrote:Brother Payne wrote:What about the Alpha Legion? They're chaos but work to liberate the galaxy by destroying chaos with chaos. Does that not make them "good" chaos?
Does being a nazi to the nazis while being a nazi yourself cancel out your naziness?
I guess it's a bit like Hitler killed Hitler so he's a good guy.
Or on a less extreme note committing an evil to prevent a greater evil Automatically Appended Next Post: Oops - I guess it's a bit like Hitler killed Hitler so he's a good guy.
Or on a less extreme note committing an evil to prevent a greater evil
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Post by: Happyjew
Brother Payne, you seem to have accredited me with your post.
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Post by: Brother Payne
Happyjew wrote:Brother Payne, you seem to have accredited me with your post.
Ah. My bad  I'm pretty new to this
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Post by: Psienesis
Just click the quote button on whoever's post you want to quote, and start writing after any other text in the window.
You only gotta get creative if you're going to respond to multiple people in the same quote-block. Then you gotta know how to craft your own quote tags.
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Post by: Brother Payne
Cheers Psienesis
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Post by: Isengard
It's interesting to see so much about the abstract, e.g. what do they want for the universe, etc.
For me it's all about the individual and chaos literally offers a chance in about 5 million of an incredible power - becoming a daemon prince.
Khorne offers devolution into a ravening psychopathic killer and maniac, unable to function, constantly on the edge of extreme violence and only able to relate to other through aggression. It turns you into a monster.
Tzeentch offers impossibly complex scheming which mortals can't comprehend and massive mutation, leading to spawndom. Sorcerous powers will cause you to die quickly due to the incredible danger.
Slaanesh will turn you into an utter degenerate, almost incapable of feeling anything due to the overload on your senses, you'll become a masochist, a sadist, a murderer and feel nothing.
Nurgle is the most obviously negative. Yes you might not feel it but the horrific degeneration of your body into a disgusting rotting, bloated hulk that stinks and seethes with maggots is hardly a great reward.
You get the impression that chaos can offer some clever intial 'ins', like a dodgy car salesman, like Slaanesh offering 'free love' or Khorne offering increased warrior prowess. Behind this is nothing but horror and degeneration.
Even if you become a daemon prince have you really succeeded? You become tied to your patron, a tool with their attributes. You may become a daemon prince of Nurgle, but you're a huge rotting, disgusting wreck with your guts spilling out and nurglings bursting out of every orifice.
Having said that it's grimdark so none of the factions offer much. However, if you believe the hype and propaganda I reckon it would be easier to live and die as say a guardsman or an Eldar aspect warrior than a follower of chaos sliding into corruption and physical and mental annihilation.
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Post by: xruslanx
Kain wrote: Whiskered wrote:Personally I see each faction in wh 40 k as neutral, they are good for them selves and bad for others. Each faction is made up of millions of individuals which varies entirely so it is hard to say that a given faction is bad or good.
This is like saying that there were positives to Hitler's regime. Sure he helped the German economy, but the bad far outweighs the negative. And even the Tau make Hitler look like a saint in comparison.
The nazis tanked the German economy. It was on the road to recovery at the end of the Weimar period, but the nazi's pretty much went into total war mode from day 1. That's very bad for an economy.
If you want to find a positive to the nazi regime, I'm pretty sure they were pretty strict on animal cruelty. </godwin>
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Post by: Tyran
Isengard wrote:It's interesting to see so much about the abstract, e.g. what do they want for the universe, etc.
For me it's all about the individual and chaos literally offers a chance in about 5 million of an incredible power - becoming a daemon prince.
Khorne offers devolution into a ravening psychopathic killer and maniac, unable to function, constantly on the edge of extreme violence and only able to relate to other through aggression. It turns you into a monster.
Tzeentch offers impossibly complex scheming which mortals can't comprehend and massive mutation, leading to spawndom. Sorcerous powers will cause you to die quickly due to the incredible danger.
Slaanesh will turn you into an utter degenerate, almost incapable of feeling anything due to the overload on your senses, you'll become a masochist, a sadist, a murderer and feel nothing.
Nurgle is the most obviously negative. Yes you might not feel it but the horrific degeneration of your body into a disgusting rotting, bloated hulk that stinks and seethes with maggots is hardly a great reward.
You get the impression that chaos can offer some clever intial 'ins', like a dodgy car salesman, like Slaanesh offering 'free love' or Khorne offering increased warrior prowess. Behind this is nothing but horror and degeneration.
Even if you become a daemon prince have you really succeeded? You become tied to your patron, a tool with their attributes. You may become a daemon prince of Nurgle, but you're a huge rotting, disgusting wreck with your guts spilling out and nurglings bursting out of every orifice.
Having said that it's grimdark so none of the factions offer much. However, if you believe the hype and propaganda I reckon it would be easier to live and die as say a guardsman or an Eldar aspect warrior than a follower of chaos sliding into corruption and physical and mental annihilation.
But you forget how Chaos corruption works, it capacity to corrupt and spread is incredible, plus while it turns Chaos followers in monsters, they are happy. Chaos is like the second happiest faction after the Orks.
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Post by: raiden
Tyran wrote:Isengard wrote:It's interesting to see so much about the abstract, e.g. what do they want for the universe, etc.
For me it's all about the individual and chaos literally offers a chance in about 5 million of an incredible power - becoming a daemon prince.
Khorne offers devolution into a ravening psychopathic killer and maniac, unable to function, constantly on the edge of extreme violence and only able to relate to other through aggression. It turns you into a monster.
Tzeentch offers impossibly complex scheming which mortals can't comprehend and massive mutation, leading to spawndom. Sorcerous powers will cause you to die quickly due to the incredible danger.
Slaanesh will turn you into an utter degenerate, almost incapable of feeling anything due to the overload on your senses, you'll become a masochist, a sadist, a murderer and feel nothing.
Nurgle is the most obviously negative. Yes you might not feel it but the horrific degeneration of your body into a disgusting rotting, bloated hulk that stinks and seethes with maggots is hardly a great reward.
You get the impression that chaos can offer some clever intial 'ins', like a dodgy car salesman, like Slaanesh offering 'free love' or Khorne offering increased warrior prowess. Behind this is nothing but horror and degeneration.
Even if you become a daemon prince have you really succeeded? You become tied to your patron, a tool with their attributes. You may become a daemon prince of Nurgle, but you're a huge rotting, disgusting wreck with your guts spilling out and nurglings bursting out of every orifice.
Having said that it's grimdark so none of the factions offer much. However, if you believe the hype and propaganda I reckon it would be easier to live and die as say a guardsman or an Eldar aspect warrior than a follower of chaos sliding into corruption and physical and mental annihilation.
But you forget how Chaos corruption works, it capacity to corrupt and spread is incredible, plus while it turns Chaos followers in monsters, they are happy. Chaos is like the second happiest faction after the Orks.
That is why the orks win. they are happy.
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Post by: shinros
I personally recommend the slaves to darkness series I know its warhammer fantasy but that trilogy shows you that the so called "bad" guys and "good" guys are no better than each other. I also think this links to 40k too currently I am on the second book and the lover is going down the same path like her lover kurt who lost himself to chaos.
Instead que the religous zealotry and begin the purging she even thinks the other empire gods and heresy.
Look at the sisters of battle with their "cleansing" all they are doing is appeasing khorne and slaanesh their zealous hatred and their enjoyment and disgust of purging heretics.
Look at warhammer soulstorm when the sisters of battle beat the tau the cannoness offers the ethereal skull to the emperor. That skull is not going to the emperor.
Its not some thing simple. Even if the so called forces of chaos (humans) got beaten chaos will still be around since the imperium is fueling it anyway.
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Post by: Lord Gatlas
They are all of the worst qualities of human emotion made (sorta) physical. so yes. they really are that bad.
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Post by: GoliothOnline
Worst qualities of human emotions?
I beg to differ lol
I would like you to watch Christian Bale's : Equilibrium
It is not emotion that makes a person strong or weak, it's his capacity to feel those emotions..
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Post by: raiden
GoliothOnline wrote:Worst qualities of human emotions?
I beg to differ lol
I would like you to watch Christian Bale's : Equilibrium
It is not emotion that makes a person strong or weak, it's his capacity to feel those emotions..
moreover, the inability to control said emotions.
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Post by: lakemacleod
I'm amidst reading "betrayer" the first of the Horus heresy books, and prior to the siege of terror, the traitor factions were hardly different then the astartes, the started off as honorable warriors, same as space marines. Each legion was corrupted to a verying degree by the forces of chaos. The fluff Behind my warband is a great company of space wolves who got tired of the imperiums slavery and nazi-ism and joined a less radical, less afflicted CSM warband. They aren't all that malicious and try only to survive and live as free men in the grim darkness of the far future. But they are considered heretics by the imperium of man and are thus relentlessly hunted. Bjorn led these defectors, as he also got tired of all the madness. *And i wanted to use a proffessionally painted full metal Bjorn model in my army xD*
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Post by: xruslanx
GoliothOnline wrote:Worst qualities of human emotions?
I beg to differ lol
I would like you to watch Christian Bale's : Equilibrium
It is not emotion that makes a person strong or weak, it's his capacity to feel those emotions..
The progress of human society goes hand in hand with the suppression of base emotions. We'd all love to run around hitting each other over the head with rocks but, tragically, society forbids it.
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Post by: madtankbloke
xruslanx wrote: Kain wrote: Whiskered wrote:Personally I see each faction in wh 40 k as neutral, they are good for them selves and bad for others. Each faction is made up of millions of individuals which varies entirely so it is hard to say that a given faction is bad or good.
This is like saying that there were positives to Hitler's regime. Sure he helped the German economy, but the bad far outweighs the negative. And even the Tau make Hitler look like a saint in comparison.
The nazis tanked the German economy. It was on the road to recovery at the end of the Weimar period, but the nazi's pretty much went into total war mode from day 1. That's very bad for an economy.
If you want to find a positive to the nazi regime, I'm pretty sure they were pretty strict on animal cruelty. </godwin>
One ofthe defining features of the Weimar republic was its inherent instability. Germany see-sawed between econimic recovery, and abject misery. Political uncertainty was worsened by the presence of paramilitary militias maintained by all the main parties. Street fighting, attempted coups and hyper-inflation were all characteristics of post WW1 germany. When The National Socialists came into power in 1933, unemployment was at 5 million (out of a total population of 45 million, and a working population of 18 million or so) by 1936, unemployment was down to 1 million, political uncertainty had been erased by the sometimes violent suppression of opposition parties (notably the communists) and the fact that Adolf Hitler became the supreme leader when he also became the chancellor. The Nazi Party also made it their mission to reverse the injustices of the versailles treaty by reclaiming the german land unjustly (in their eyes) ceded to various of the allies. This was achieved pretty much bloodlessly, and in 1936 when there was a plebisite, Adolf Hitler had 98.2% popularity.
Up until the start of WW2 in 1939, Germany and the Nazi Party had been nothing but a success story for the Germans in reversing the injustices they had suffered, and while it might not be fashionable to say, Hitler did every single thing he said he would do in his 1933 election manifesto. i don't know of any politician, or any party (with the exception of single issue parties) that can say the same.
The great tragedy of Germany in the 1930's and 40's is that all the good things that were achieved, the restoration of natural borders, the re-unification of the german state, and anulment of the versailles treaty, and the amazing recovery of the economy was marred by the second world war, and the horrific and absolutely unforgivable crimes against the Jews, the poles, the slavs, the Gypsies, homosexuals, the mentally ill, and anyone else who was judged to be less than an 'ubermensch'
While you can argue that the Nazi party did some good, thats like looking for a silver lining on a turd
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Post by: Wilytank
I follow Khorne because I believe that my friends and family all deserve to be decapitated by Bloodletters!
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Post by: Poly Ranger
madtankbloke wrote:xruslanx wrote: Kain wrote: Whiskered wrote:Personally I see each faction in wh 40 k as neutral, they are good for them selves and bad for others. Each faction is made up of millions of individuals which varies entirely so it is hard to say that a given faction is bad or good.
This is like saying that there were positives to Hitler's regime. Sure he helped the German economy, but the bad far outweighs the negative. And even the Tau make Hitler look like a saint in comparison.
The nazis tanked the German economy. It was on the road to recovery at the end of the Weimar period, but the nazi's pretty much went into total war mode from day 1. That's very bad for an economy.
If you want to find a positive to the nazi regime, I'm pretty sure they were pretty strict on animal cruelty. </godwin>
One ofthe defining features of the Weimar republic was its inherent instability. Germany see-sawed between econimic recovery, and abject misery. Political uncertainty was worsened by the presence of paramilitary militias maintained by all the main parties. Street fighting, attempted coups and hyper-inflation were all characteristics of post WW1 germany. When The National Socialists came into power in 1933, unemployment was at 5 million (out of a total population of 45 million, and a working population of 18 million or so) by 1936, unemployment was down to 1 million, political uncertainty had been erased by the sometimes violent suppression of opposition parties (notably the communists) and the fact that Adolf Hitler became the supreme leader when he also became the chancellor. The Nazi Party also made it their mission to reverse the injustices of the versailles treaty by reclaiming the german land unjustly (in their eyes) ceded to various of the allies. This was achieved pretty much bloodlessly, and in 1936 when there was a plebisite, Adolf Hitler had 98.2% popularity.
Up until the start of WW2 in 1939, Germany and the Nazi Party had been nothing but a success story for the Germans in reversing the injustices they had suffered, and while it might not be fashionable to say, Hitler did every single thing he said he would do in his 1933 election manifesto. i don't know of any politician, or any party (with the exception of single issue parties) that can say the same.
The great tragedy of Germany in the 1930's and 40's is that all the good things that were achieved, the restoration of natural borders, the re-unification of the german state, and anulment of the versailles treaty, and the amazing recovery of the economy was marred by the second world war, and the horrific and absolutely unforgivable crimes against the Jews, the poles, the slavs, the Gypsies, homosexuals, the mentally ill, and anyone else who was judged to be less than an 'ubermensch'
While you can argue that the Nazi party did some good, thats like looking for a silver lining on a turd
Yep! Well said!
Now in the fictional sense, chaos torture for pleasure, slaughter innocents for fun, enslave entire planets, commit mass genocide on the scale of billions, worship entities that encourage selfish needs and wants and bring misery, pain and suffering to an entire galaxy... Sorry OP and anyone saying chaos is not evil, but I have to clear this up... what is your definition of evil? Because if that doesn't cover it, you have no right to call Hitler, Stalin, Amin, Saddam, Osama, Westborough baptists, Gengis Khan or any other real life human being evil. In fact, if 'evil' is not a definition that covers these acts then the word starts to lose all definition.
The idea of liberty is not to do whatever you like and not give a damn how it effects others, that is what republicans wish you to believe what liberal ideals are. No - liberty is freedom to do what you like as long as it does not encroach uppon anothers freedoms.
It makes me uneasy to compare all the above real life monsters to a fictional concept but I was just staggered that some people believe these acts are not evil but instead just a matter of perspective. Automatically Appended Next Post: xruslanx wrote:GoliothOnline wrote:Worst qualities of human emotions?
I beg to differ lol
I would like you to watch Christian Bale's : Equilibrium
It is not emotion that makes a person strong or weak, it's his capacity to feel those emotions..
The progress of human society goes hand in hand with the suppression of base emotions. We'd all love to run around hitting each other over the head with rocks but, tragically, society forbids it.
I strongly disagree with this. It is not surpression of base emotions that prevents humanity smashing each over the head with stones. It is compassion, empathy and the survival of the fittest, which as Richard Dawkins expresses fantastically, includes the ability to function in a group, looking out for danger to the entire group not just oneself and providing for the group as the group provides for you.
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Post by: Timmy149
I would say this about the gods individually
Khorne: Isn't he basically wanting the Great Crusade (With lots of xeno blood shed, and then a Heresy with more blood) with a little Hitler mixed in? He has very strange ideals, but not completely evil.
Nurgle: Looks after his kids, blesses them, blesses those who aren't his kids, and gets sad when any of them die.
Slaanesh: Pure sadist, is basically an drug addict who has a few affairs. And by a few, I mean a lot.
Tzeench: Who knows... Probably just bored.
So goes into the 'Evil, but not as evil as you can get', because they are mostly doing what they do for the sake of it. Nobody think of the Imperium as evil, either.
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Post by: Squat Kid
After reading Nemesis the Warlock, I haven't been able to see the Imperium as the "good guys". The only good guys in 40k are probably the Eldar and Tau
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Post by: Psienesis
The Eldar will sacrifice a billion of another race, gladly, to save one of their own. They also created Slaanesh. The Dark Eldar are "true" Eldar, these monks floating about in the Craftworlds are the nerds and wallflowers that never got invited to all the really good parties.
Of course, if you're looking for a definite "good guy" in 40K... keep looking. There aren't any.
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Post by: Timmy149
 Squat Kid wrote:After reading Nemesis the Warlock, I haven't been able to see the Imperium as the "good guys". The only good guys in 40k are probably the Eldar and Tau
Eldar are more of the "Lawful Neutral" type. Tau are more good guys.
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Post by: Tyran
 Timmy149 wrote: Squat Kid wrote:After reading Nemesis the Warlock, I haven't been able to see the Imperium as the "good guys". The only good guys in 40k are probably the Eldar and Tau
Eldar are more of the "Lawful Neutral" type. Tau are more good guys.
Forced sterilization of humans, genocide, mental control, a very strict cast system; the Tau make Hitler and Stalin look like amateurs... Still they are the closer you can get to "good" in 40k.
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Post by: Timmy149
Tyran wrote: Timmy149 wrote: Squat Kid wrote:After reading Nemesis the Warlock, I haven't been able to see the Imperium as the "good guys". The only good guys in 40k are probably the Eldar and Tau
Eldar are more of the "Lawful Neutral" type. Tau are more good guys.
Forced sterilization of humans, genocide, mental control, a very strict cast system; the Tau make Hitler and Stalin look like amateurs... Still they are the closer you can get to "good" in 40k.
And communism. Don't forget communism.
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Post by: raiden
tau do not commit genocide unless its the only option (like orks) It is only "forced" on populaces that are rebellious. Even then its only subtle and not 100% of them are sterilized. The caste system works because they evolved to fit those rolls. Everyone has a place. just because its a caste doesn't make it bad in itself. the Mental control is highly debatable. Thats along the terms of accusing Dark Angels of being heretics in disguise. and saying Alpha legion works for the emperor.
how are they communist? the only thing they share with communism is the shunning of the self, or I, or ego of a person. (individuals are still rewarded though )
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Post by: Timmy149
 raiden wrote:tau do not commit genocide unless its the only option (like orks) It is only "forced" on populaces that are rebellious. Even then its only subtle and not 100% of them are sterilized. The caste system works because they evolved to fit those rolls. Everyone has a place. just because its a caste doesn't make it bad in itself. the Mental control is highly debatable. Thats along the terms of accusing Dark Angels of being heretics in disguise. and saying Alpha legion works for the emperor.
how are they communist? the only thing they share with communism is the shunning of the self, or I, or ego of a person. (individuals are still rewarded though )
So they share the main areas, that are most commonly related to communism.
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