5859
Post by: Ravenous D
So this unit popped up at the store the other day and it did obscene amounts of damage to a regular tournament champion to the point where he went and bought it right after.
Its pretty simple and straight forward and not as easy to deal with as you would think.
Tigurius
6 Centurions with Grav cannons.
What this unit does:
- Re rolls hits and wounds with 30 grav cannon shots
- Optimal powers: Endurance(FNP, It will not die), Forewarning (4++), and Prescience (Re roll all to hit rolls)
- 18 or 36 twin linked bolter shots in addition to the grav guns
- Re rolls psychic tests
- Re roll reserves
First answer was "use orks" but after killing 15+ boyz consistently in test rolls, doesn't seem like an answer.
23663
Post by: minigun762
Said squad is what, nearly 700 points?
That's 5 Vindicators, of which I'm pretty sure you'd only need a few solid hits to really neuter the squad.
Beyond that, you just assault it to tie it up. No overwatch means you're fairly safe to charge it and even if you lose after 2-3 turns, you've still kept the rest of the army safe from the crazy firepower it will bring.
5859
Post by: Ravenous D
665pts.
And thus far I haven't seen anyone get within 12" of it. Vindicators seem like the obvious idea, but with 50mm bases you might hit 2 at a time and will immediately lose the tank as their ranges are the same.
EDIT: 675pts. Omniscope as well, giving spilt fire.
50138
Post by: Savageconvoy
Second answer: Just use Kroot
65120
Post by: ace101
Ravenous D wrote:So this unit popped up at the store the other day and it did obscene amounts of damage to a regular tournament champion to the point where he went and bought it right after. Its pretty simple and straight forward and not as easy to deal with as you would think. Tigurius 6 Centurions with Grav cannons. What this unit does: - Re rolls hits and wounds with 30 grav cannon shots - Optimal powers: Endurance( FNP, It will not die), Forewarning (4++), and Prescience (Re roll all to hit rolls) - 18 or 36 twin linked bolter shots in addition to the grav guns - Re rolls psychic tests - Re roll reserves First answer was "use orks" but after killing 15+ boyz consistently in test rolls, doesn't seem like an answer.
Other than re-rolling reserves and psychic tests, IMO having 6 cents is expensive enough, while adding Tigirius is good, it rachets the points up sky high. I'd rather take a lvl 2 DA libby with PFG to give my cents a 4++, plus 2 divination powers to boot, for much less than tiggy's cost, with a Stubborn MEQ unit to hold an objective.
77159
Post by: Paradigm
While they do have a middling threat range, it would be fairly easy to ignore/outmanoeuvre them, particularly if you're playing a more mobile army. Just feed it a unit at a time, and take out the troops in the army as fast as possible. But in terms of taking it down, all I can think of is somehow getting something S10 or ID into CC with it, but I can't really think of a reliable way of getting that close as most units like that have good armour saves (otherwise GK would be a pretty good counter with loads of high-I ID attacks)
65120
Post by: ace101
675 is also a large portion of their army, and this player probably is gimping his list elsewhere EDIT: Crap, wrong tangent, OT: Vindicators: Tiggy isn't EW, S10 loves DPs and these guys more so, and they can't run. Sure he might Immobilize you and take a hull point, but it won't you from placing that pie-plate, since all of his guns are the same ranges as a Demolisher.
463
Post by: CaptKaruthors
Here's a few our locals have discussed. Most of the strategies involve attacking the heart of the deathstar which is Tigurius:
1.)Artillery to snipe out Tigurius. Specifically, earthshakers. Manticores can help somewhat as they are strength 10 and if you stack enough wounds you can instagib out the centurions.
2.) Dark Eldar Venoms with Night Shields. You can easily put enough wounds on these guys to drop the unit down in size. Additionally, the Crucible of Malediction can snipe out Tigurius if you can deliver it. Ravagers with night shields and dissies helps too.
3.) Daemons.
4.) Your own centurion death star.
5.) GK mind strike missiles to get rid of tigurius.
6.) Scarab hordes. Entropic strike can really whack them good.
7.) Starcannon vypers are seeing a return.
Most other options are long shots. It's a brutal unit and we've seen it fielded locally..although smaller and mounted in a LRC.
44100
Post by: Windir83
Deployed centrally I'd say that unit can effectively control alot of area if played well, but if you can get into assault with it it's probably gonna fall.
61618
Post by: Desubot
Im assuming for sure Tigger is part of it?
For sure charge some chumpers into and lock it for a few turns while you whip out what little else they might have.
AKA: Corndogs, Kroot, Orks, Wraithwing, and a few others.
6949
Post by: zedsdead
ive seen this done while also adding in the Tau chip commander to buff the squad even more.
However its a ton of points that dies to massed gunfire. In addition this unit gets beaten down by Grav bikers sniping them from a distance and jumping in and out of combat with them
.
35826
Post by: tiber55
Tau buff commander seems like a better answer since this unit can't overwatch.
Means you have re-rolls to hit, ignore cover, a tanking unit that can get fnp 2+ 4++ has abaltive shield drones and most imporatantly hit and run.
Which means if you want to you can run tigarious rolling specifically for endurance and forewarning.
77630
Post by: Thud
I second tiber55 about the Buff Commander. You're guaranteed re-rolls to hit and ignores cover. Plus, you can get tank hunters, so you can go for missiles as secondary weapons for some nice first turn shooting with a pretty decent chance of securing first blood.
70626
Post by: Dakkamite
700pt deathstar kills 90pts of boyz per turn
Yeah I'd say Orks pretty much have this covered.
53459
Post by: Whereswaldo
lol .... if were talking orkz Zagstruk + a full unit of storm boyz (sadly this is the go to for one of my opponents when playing tri-raider, since its the only way he can get close to them) turn 2 with decent rolls they come in .... charge out of deep strike and your 700 point unit is tied up the entire game (or dead to forced armor rolls)
43541
Post by: spartiatis
Nothing new, grav centurions will kill anything they shoot at if left unchecked.
There are many ways to counter it, but i also feel that a DA Libby with PFG and 3-4 centurions is a more balanced idea when list building.
6 cents in the same unit sound like overkill and wasted points.
74560
Post by: jakl277
Heres a counter.
Daemons
FMC / 2++ rerollable + no armor on units for the most part
19750
Post by: Nym
If an Ork warboss (125 to 150pts) somehow manages to reach them in CC, it's pretty much game over for your 700pts unit.
A Daemon Prince without Power Armor would also probably destroy them in short order and they could barely hurt it.
61618
Post by: Desubot
Better hope to not get that one BOOOON roll that makes your armor save better
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Post by: Happyjew
2x Wraithknights (stock), Farseer with Guide and Prescience and I still have 85 points for upgrades.
Better range, causes ID so IWND and FNP are useless.
42819
Post by: Starless Night
An Archon with a huskblade, soul trap and shadowfield accompanied by a few wyches to help tie them down. They'll be wounding the squad on 6's when shooting, 5's if the archon is up front. An the archon ID's all of them and would be issuing a challenge to Tigurius every assault round to try and use the soul trap.
I think you could get all of this for less than half the cost of that unit.
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Post by: necrondog99
Land three monoliths right next to them and vacuum them into the portals. Let the particle whip finish the job.
"Mmmm, particle whip." - best Homer Simpson voice.
- J
48746
Post by: Billagio
Sure it might kill 15 boyz in test rolls in the open field, but if I roll a battlewagon up to you and have the boyz get out, shoot and assault you, youre probably going to be in trouble (cant overwatch right?) Plus the Battlewagon has a good chance of getting there as grav cannons arnt the best at killing vehicles, especially if you have KFF cover. Now they are tied up and I can get more boyz in on it.
Or just use a burna wagon. Automatically Appended Next Post: Nym wrote:If an Ork warboss (125 to 150pts) somehow manages to reach them in CC, it's pretty much game over for your 700pts unit.
A Daemon Prince without Power Armor would also probably destroy them in short order and they could barely hurt it.
And yeah, a warboss will wreck this. Put him in a BW with 3 meganobs and its game over for that unit.
57815
Post by: Ferrum_Sanguinis
Centurions are slow and purposeful
Ergo, they can never be a proper deathstar.
43541
Post by: spartiatis
Exactly this.
If they could overwatch and Tigurius aimed for foreboding, then yes, it would be very tough to take down. Assault seems to be their Achilles' heel.
This is what i like on the new SM codex. While some units are very good, they have a vulnerability one can expliot. Unlike things like Riptides..
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Post by: xruslanx
Plasmavets in chimeras would tear them to shreads, and for a fraction of the points.
37470
Post by: tomjoad
xruslanx wrote:Plasmavets in chimeras would tear them to shreads, and for a fraction of the points.
And then score an objective when they were done, for good measure!
57815
Post by: Ferrum_Sanguinis
spartiatis wrote:
Exactly this.
If they could overwatch and Tigurius aimed for foreboding, then yes, it would be very tough to take down. Assault seems to be their Achilles' heel.
This is what i like on the new SM codex. While some units are very good, they have a vulnerability one can expliot. Unlike things like Riptides..
Riptides crumble when any decent unit assaults them.
The problem is actually being able to assault them
58966
Post by: tankboy145
Billagio wrote:Sure it might kill 15 boyz in test rolls in the open field, but if I roll a battlewagon up to you and have the boyz get out, shoot and assault you, youre probably going to be in trouble (cant overwatch right?) Plus the Battlewagon has a good chance of getting there as grav cannons arnt the best at killing vehicles, especially if you have KFF cover. Now they are tied up and I can get more boyz in on it.
Or just use a burna wagon.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Nym wrote:If an Ork warboss (125 to 150pts) somehow manages to reach them in CC, it's pretty much game over for your 700pts unit.
A Daemon Prince without Power Armor would also probably destroy them in short order and they could barely hurt it.
And yeah, a warboss will wreck this. Put him in a BW with 3 meganobs and its game over for that unit.
Not the best at kkilling vehicles? 1 roll of a 6 for armor pen results in an immobilized result and 2 6's means 2 more hull points are done, 3 6's and thats a wrecked wagon. With 30 shots being twinlinked, I would believe that would be a dead wagon.
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Post by: IssacClarkeisBatman99
Ten man black knights would massacre them, then jump to the rest of your army and tear apart the weakened force, due to so many points in one squad.
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Post by: Nym
tankboy145 wrote:Not the best at kkilling vehicles? 1 roll of a 6 for armor pen results in an immobilized result and 2 6's means 2 more hull points are done, 3 6's and thats a wrecked wagon. With 30 shots being twinlinked, I would believe that would be a dead wagon.
A BW isn't really the best delivery system. 2 Biker Bosses with 5-6 ablative Biker Nobz and Painboy will statistically be able to reach them in CC and are still cheaper by a non-negligeable margin (10% at least). Then it's game over. And it's not really tailoring since Nob Biker "deathstars" (if we can call them deathstars nowadays...) are not uncommon in Ork armies.
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Post by: Nilok
Tau/Tau (besides Kroot)
Take O'vesa, Darkstider, and a Buff-mander and attach them to some pathfinders.
Fire O'vesa's S8 AP2, Large Blast, Ignore Cover, Twin-Linked shot at the now T4 Centurians.
48746
Post by: Billagio
tankboy145 wrote: Billagio wrote:Sure it might kill 15 boyz in test rolls in the open field, but if I roll a battlewagon up to you and have the boyz get out, shoot and assault you, youre probably going to be in trouble (cant overwatch right?) Plus the Battlewagon has a good chance of getting there as grav cannons arnt the best at killing vehicles, especially if you have KFF cover. Now they are tied up and I can get more boyz in on it.
Or just use a burna wagon.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Nym wrote:If an Ork warboss (125 to 150pts) somehow manages to reach them in CC, it's pretty much game over for your 700pts unit.
A Daemon Prince without Power Armor would also probably destroy them in short order and they could barely hurt it.
And yeah, a warboss will wreck this. Put him in a BW with 3 meganobs and its game over for that unit.
Not the best at kkilling vehicles? 1 roll of a 6 for armor pen results in an immobilized result and 2 6's means 2 more hull points are done, 3 6's and thats a wrecked wagon. With 30 shots being twinlinked, I would believe that would be a dead wagon.
Battlewagons are 4hp to start with and if you put a KFF in there you negate statistically 1/3 of the 6s.
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Post by: Happyjew
Billagio wrote:Battlewagons are 4hp to start with and if you put a KFF in there you negate statistically 1/3 of the 6s.
This assumes that vehicles can take cover saves against grav weapons. Strict RAW, vehicles cannot (currently) take cover saves against grav weapons. However that is a discussion for another forum, and with a bit of searching you can find it.
70626
Post by: Dakkamite
spartiatis wrote:
Exactly this.
If they could overwatch and Tigurius aimed for foreboding, then yes, it would be very tough to take down. Assault seems to be their Achilles' heel.
This is what i like on the new SM codex. While some units are very good, they have a vulnerability one can expliot. Unlike things like Riptides..
This.
I don't see anyone bitching about Space Marines, what happened to "hurr durr Tau are just the latest FotM and you'll bitch about the next one as well"
46128
Post by: Happyjew
Dakkamite wrote:spartiatis wrote:
Exactly this.
If they could overwatch and Tigurius aimed for foreboding, then yes, it would be very tough to take down. Assault seems to be their Achilles' heel.
This is what i like on the new SM codex. While some units are very good, they have a vulnerability one can expliot. Unlike things like Riptides..
This.
I don't see anyone bitching about Space Marines, what happened to "hurr durr Tau are just the latest FotM and you'll bitch about the next one as well"
Eldar came out and we got a bigger toy, and broken transports.
73897
Post by: Kemp
Cents are Toughness 5 btw.
This deathstar is a lot harder to deal with that most people think. I am not a huge fan of just 6 cents and Tig but what my friend as been doing is you run 3 cents, lysander, and Corbulo from BAs. Cents have grav/TL-Las on Sarg with omni...Lysander tanks anything that is Strength 8 or over and Look out sir on to Corbulo for has a 3+/ 2+ FNP for anything less. So your plasma talons on your black knights will just be pushed to Corbulo and he will take his 2+ FNP. He also has the all seeing eye so he can re-roll a dice once a game. It's an extremely tough unit to kill unless you roll just terrible. You just walk this unit up the field and when you get close you just break off Lysander and Corbulo from the cents. This is all just a plan to keep your cents safe so they can move up the field.
Yes large blast strength 8 or over will do some work to this unit but if you don't have a lot of high strength weapons it will be hard to get past that FNP on Corbulo.
64022
Post by: g0atsticks
Drown them in Gants. There is no problem you can't handle in this game if you have enough Gants. Just sayng.
42687
Post by: Coyote81
A vindicare assassin in a Bastion will get them all eventually, buff will effectively kill Tiggy early.
73232
Post by: Unholyllama
This was talked about on another forum I frequent. There's a lot of weaknesses to it but it IS a pretty vicious unit if you can't address it. The main weakness is that it's slow and purposeful as others have said. The O'vesa-star from NOVA was also a very expensive unit that worked extremely well. I can see a similar thing with this centurion-star but without the mobility. If you can get them to the center of the board, they can hold their position moderately well and have a decent area of influence. Thankfully though, there are things with longer range to address them.
38926
Post by: Exergy
Desubot wrote:Better hope to not get that one BOOOON roll that makes your armor save better 
without Power Armor I am not sure what happens. He has no armor save, so he either cannot benefit or gets a 6+ armor save.
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Post by: Nilok
Kemp wrote:Cents are Toughness 5 btw.
This deathstar is a lot harder to deal with that most people think. I am not a huge fan of just 6 cents and Tig but what my friend as been doing is you run 3 cents, lysander, and Corbulo from BAs. Cents have grav/ TL-Las on Sarg with omni...Lysander tanks anything that is Strength 8 or over and Look out sir on to Corbulo for has a 3+/ 2+ FNP for anything less. So your plasma talons on your black knights will just be pushed to Corbulo and he will take his 2+ FNP. He also has the all seeing eye so he can re-roll a dice once a game. It's an extremely tough unit to kill unless you roll just terrible. You just walk this unit up the field and when you get close you just break off Lysander and Corbulo from the cents. This is all just a plan to keep your cents safe so they can move up the field.
Yes large blast strength 8 or over will do some work to this unit but if you don't have a lot of high strength weapons it will be hard to get past that FNP on Corbulo.
I know Centurions are T5, however when Darkstrider shoots at a unit, that unit has -1 Toughness for that shooting attack. Thus the Cents are T4 and are ID from O'vesa. It is the only reason you would stick O'vesa in a 4 man T3 unit.
The Centurions would not be able to use armor saves, cover saves, or FNP. All they have left is the character's invulnerable save.
73480
Post by: ultimentra
There's always the 165 point Leman Russ Demolisher... take a couple of those and boom?
61618
Post by: Desubot
Exergy wrote: Desubot wrote:Better hope to not get that one BOOOON roll that makes your armor save better 
without Power Armor I am not sure what happens. He has no armor save, so he either cannot benefit or gets a 6+ armor save.
Ah though he started with some kinda armor 4+ or something never mind
50326
Post by: curran12
I have Exorcists for it. A big, slow chunky unit that I can outrange and blow past their armor.
64685
Post by: x13rads
Ravenous D wrote:So this unit popped up at the store the other day and it did obscene amounts of damage to a regular tournament champion to the point where he went and bought it right after.
Its pretty simple and straight forward and not as easy to deal with as you would think.
Tigurius
6 Centurions with Grav cannons.
What this unit does:
- Re rolls hits and wounds with 30 grav cannon shots
- Optimal powers: Endurance( FNP, It will not die), Forewarning (4++), and Prescience (Re roll all to hit rolls)
- 18 or 36 twin linked bolter shots in addition to the grav guns
- Re rolls psychic tests
- Re roll reserves
First answer was "use orks" but after killing 15+ boyz consistently in test rolls, doesn't seem like an answer.
1. Pick any other army
2. Load up on weapons with a greater range than 30"
3. Win
38926
Post by: Exergy
x13rads wrote: Ravenous D wrote:So this unit popped up at the store the other day and it did obscene amounts of damage to a regular tournament champion to the point where he went and bought it right after.
Its pretty simple and straight forward and not as easy to deal with as you would think.
Tigurius
6 Centurions with Grav cannons.
What this unit does:
- Re rolls hits and wounds with 30 grav cannon shots
- Optimal powers: Endurance( FNP, It will not die), Forewarning (4++), and Prescience (Re roll all to hit rolls)
- 18 or 36 twin linked bolter shots in addition to the grav guns
- Re rolls psychic tests
- Re roll reserves
First answer was "use orks" but after killing 15+ boyz consistently in test rolls, doesn't seem like an answer.
1. Pick any other army
2. Load up on weapons with a greater range than 30"
3. Win
pretty much. My favorite would be 6 DE venoms with dual cannon and night shield. 720 points and will force on average 24 saves a turn on the hapless cents. It will only kill 2 cents a turn, but wont take any damage in return, if they get endurance it they will only kill 3 cents every 2 turns but it will still be a sad show.
I suppose the cents could be given missile launchers.....How awesome is 800 points for 6 missile launchers?
64685
Post by: x13rads
I'd also just like to ask just how many points is 15 boys?
For 660 points you would need more than 7 turns to kill an equal amout of boys, and in the end you still couldn't score an objective.
35714
Post by: gwarsh41
How about a greater unclean one? It doesnt care about grav guns, no armor save means those pesky grav guns don't do anything. T7 means bolters will wound on a 6, but potential Iron arm will just shrug it off.
If we are playing the optimal powers game, we might as well play the optimal warlord traits and wargear game while we are at it.
GUO with iron arm and warp speed, and endurance. So T8-10, IWND, FNP and a boosted initiative and attacks, as well as fleet (for the charge rolls). Give him the balesword for instant death on all attacks, and a plague flail for the bonus attack, well as the Dark blessing reward, to re-roll failed invul saves. With the nature of daemons, it is not too far fetched to think a Tzeentch model with divination would be far, so we could bust this bad boy up to a ++4 with prescience, or just give it the hatred warlord trait.
He would have 8-10 attacks on the charge, all with instant death, at initiative 5-7. A re-rollable ++4, with FNP and IWND just in case he loses one of his 6 wounds.
If the stars were ever to align to give this GUO all that it wanted, it would be arguably the most durable unit in all of 40k. Even the all mighty swarmlord would have a very hard time cracking this GUO open.
Best part of all, under 300pt. So in a point for point fight, I could have 2 of them against your death star.
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Post by: barnowl
MY first thought was the unit looks like Ymgral bait. No overwatch, no invulnerable save vs 40 rending hits in the charge.
62940
Post by: ravengatorfan
Sternguard in a drop pod with combi plasmas or combi meltas. I would say 2 of them.
Guard could just outrange them.
Tau could also outrange them.
Flyers.
Blank Templar getting close would have a good chance with deny the witch.
Dark elders speed and drowning of poison shots, or close combat.
Orks in trucks getting into close combat.
Most of them aren't expensive either so you can focus more on the rest of there crap.
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Post by: gmaleron
Fought a version of this with my Elysians (out of Codex IG) where it only had x5 Centurions, but my vendettas flew on and wrecked a good chunk of it with my veterans disembarking the next turn and plasma gunning the rest down, though it is nasty I have good counter to it.
26458
Post by: hyv3mynd
That's the problem. For a deathstar, this unit has too many counters. It's slow. It has short range. It's not winning many assaults. Weapons are specialized and not effective against enough units.
That's not to say its a boring unit to play, but you'll be more effective with them if you're realistic.
Attaching characters to solve the deficiencies is an option if you want the big unit instead of MSU cents. Pick the character to cover the most bases in your meta. There's tons of possibilities once you account for all the battle brothers.
If it were me, I'd go for a buffmander for rerolls, ignoring cover, and hit and run. Then a melee beast to tank wounds and punch anyone who assaults like Lysander or a tooled up chapter master.
72325
Post by: soomemafia
I kind of don't see what's all the fuzz about here. Any weapon with range above 24" and AP2 will laugh at them... Plasma/Lascannon Devs with Presciense Libby will take care of them in no-time, not to mention Eldar Starcannons...
OH, and why not fight fire with fire? 2 biker squads with tri-plasma/Grav could be intresting... A little bit risky, but with more mobility they will cripple the Cents before dying for a fraction of their price.
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Post by: Senortaco
Reduce the cents to 4 man with corbulo and Lysander and put them in a LRC
11860
Post by: Martel732
Allies can't ride in the main force's transports.
14386
Post by: Grey Knight Luke
and taking Corbulo seems like an enormous point sink for an already enormously point sunk unit. You already have to pay for a troop and HQ, and the centurions don't even get FNP.
Yes, sure, Corbulo gets his 2+ FNP, but without EW, he is not really any better than just having a TH/SS squad march in front of them and soak ablatives with Lysander attached to the squad.
But seriously, with as much points as you are talking about, I would hope to run into this list. It would be very easy to outmaneuver you. And if I kill them, your lynchpin army is just done.
53985
Post by: TheKbob
The Lysander/Corbulo star took fourth at Feast of Blades open. It's absolutely disgusting and only got stomped by gravy spam white scars.
Trust me, that's a deathstar that makes all the other current ones poop themselves outside of Screamer star.
Simple math hammer, say you're firing a mass quantity of shots, none of it AP2. If you LOS all of it to corbulo, you have a 1/3 chance to fail armor, 1/6 chance to fail FNP, and a 1/6 chance again because of all seeing eye.
That works out to be 1/108 chance to wound corbulo while he still has his reroll or that he's 99.1% likely to be fine.
With Lysander tanking the low volume, high strength stuff, you're not budging the unit.
This unit is coupled with Shield Eternal/AA/TH/Jump pack chapter master, dante, Sanguinary Guard and another sang priest. That doesn't scatter on deep strike, melta pistols something to death and now you have to deal with the immediate deathstar or the coming.
I played Draigowing against this. The Paladin Star barely killed the Dante star. It then got annihilated by the Termitubbies and friends after consolidation.
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Post by: PrinceRaven
I would assault it with a single Flyrant and kill 665 points of things with a 260-285 point model.
53985
Post by: TheKbob
PrinceRaven wrote:I would assault it with a single Flyrant and kill 665 points of things with a 260-285 point model.
Or Lysander tanks you like a boss and kills you. He will issue a challenge, get a reroll (two with corbulo) potentially), and squash your bug.
Deathstars in general, good. Deathstars played by a good general, great.
As for the GUO, grey knights or Asterath (sp?) will punk him. If he gets the ere...
69849
Post by: PrinceRaven
TheKbob wrote: PrinceRaven wrote:I would assault it with a single Flyrant and kill 665 points of things with a 260-285 point model.
Or Lysander tanks you like a boss and kills you. He will issue a challenge, get a reroll (two with corbulo) potentially), and squash your bug.
I was responding to the first deathstar, which was Tigerius+Centurions. As far as dealing with that Lysander+ Corbulo deathstar I'd go "thanks for concentrating all those points into one unit for me, I'm gonna ignore it and kill your squishies, have fun only killing one unit per turn".
53985
Post by: TheKbob
Target lock. Kills two units a turn. Lysander breaks off after delivery to hassle. And as I said, the army is supported by a second, just as durable and deadly star.
The list had two units of scouts for squishees. Two stalkers for AA. Deathstars 1 and 2 and a distraction unit of Sanguinary Guard.
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Post by: rohansoldier
With my Eldar (assuming ideal powers)
Big unit of Dark Reapers + Farseer with Guide, Doom and the Divination power that makes them ignore cover and Spirit Seer with Jinx/Protect.
Jinx the Centurions down to 3+ save and Doom them, Guide the Reapers. Use the ignore cover power and then open fire. Problem solved.
With CSM
Large unit of Spawn with a biker or jugger lord (probably with axe of blind fury). Spawn only take wounds on a 6 cos of no armour save and the ap2 attacks on the lord will ruin them once he gets in.
Or a flying daemon prince without power armour and the black mace or axe of blind fury. He would walk all over them.
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Post by: Ascalam
Ravenous D wrote:So this unit popped up at the store the other day and it did obscene amounts of damage to a regular tournament champion to the point where he went and bought it right after.
Its pretty simple and straight forward and not as easy to deal with as you would think.
Tigurius
6 Centurions with Grav cannons.
What this unit does:
- Re rolls hits and wounds with 30 grav cannon shots
- Optimal powers: Endurance( FNP, It will not die), Forewarning (4++), and Prescience (Re roll all to hit rolls)
- 18 or 36 twin linked bolter shots in addition to the grav guns
- Re rolls psychic tests
- Re roll reserves
First answer was "use orks" but after killing 15+ boyz consistently in test rolls, doesn't seem like an answer.
You kill 15 boyz (hell, lets even say 19) that unit is fearless still, and isn't going anywhere.
Then their 180+ buddies pour fire on you/gangfeth you in CC because you wasted your firepower on a unit of Boyz.
Assuming you don't get buries in loota shots, hit up by a burnawagon, SAG'd out of existence first...
Orks would actually work quite well against this unit, because orks are the masters of cheap firepower by the fethload to make you fail those saves,
DE - Disintegrator/lance spam would work well, i think. Massive splinterspam also, for the same reason as orks but with better accuracy...
You have a lot of firepower and survivability in that unit, to be sure, but it's also a hefty point sink. It can be worn down by forcing saves until a 1 pops up (though FNP helps), and can be ground down in combat, or simply tarpitted while the enemy cleans the rest of your army off the board.
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Post by: Hulksmash
I vote two units of 3 Cents in LR's, LRR's, or LRC's depending on the rest of your list. F-deathstaring it. Just giggle.
Oh, and in regards to the deathstars DA Black Knights make them sad. Including the Corbulo unit since it's gonna be toting rad grenades. Dual Wraithknight (fairly common), GK DCA unit with attached grenades, Grav Bikers, Orks in general, Nids in general, DE Venoms, Khorne Dogs, Screamer Star, getting hit by more than 2 FMC's from C  , Sisters in general, Guard Blobs & Vendettas......
Sorry, got tired of writing a list. But there is more. So much more.
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Post by: Grey Knight Luke
Its been my experience that deathstar/lynchpin lists tend to win big or lose big depending on the matchup.
Its also boring to play. You are going to do the same thing every time, because that is how it works.
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Post by: Ravenous D
Ascalam wrote: Ravenous D wrote:So this unit popped up at the store the other day and it did obscene amounts of damage to a regular tournament champion to the point where he went and bought it right after.
Its pretty simple and straight forward and not as easy to deal with as you would think.
Tigurius
6 Centurions with Grav cannons.
What this unit does:
- Re rolls hits and wounds with 30 grav cannon shots
- Optimal powers: Endurance( FNP, It will not die), Forewarning (4++), and Prescience (Re roll all to hit rolls)
- 18 or 36 twin linked bolter shots in addition to the grav guns
- Re rolls psychic tests
- Re roll reserves
First answer was "use orks" but after killing 15+ boyz consistently in test rolls, doesn't seem like an answer.
You kill 15 boyz (hell, lets even say 19) that unit is fearless still, and isn't going anywhere.
Then their 180+ buddies pour fire on you/gangfeth you in CC because you wasted your firepower on a unit of Boyz.
Assuming you don't get buries in loota shots, hit up by a burnawagon, SAG'd out of existence first...
Orks would actually work quite well against this unit, because orks are the masters of cheap firepower by the fethload to make you fail those saves,
DE - Disintegrator/lance spam would work well, i think. Massive splinterspam also, for the same reason as orks but with better accuracy...
You have a lot of firepower and survivability in that unit, to be sure, but it's also a hefty point sink. It can be worn down by forcing saves until a 1 pops up (though FNP helps), and can be ground down in combat, or simply tarpitted while the enemy cleans the rest of your army off the board.
Dark Eldar don't exist in 6th.
And you're assuming that all 180 boyz are going to be within shoota range? Each model killed pushes the ork lines back. Shock attack gun, really? Burna wagon wouldn't get within 24" of them. You're ignoring the rest of the marine army which could range from numerous amounts of rules. Add 5 scouts and this deathstar is an allied force for any marine, tau or guard list.
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Post by: Fragile
TheKbob wrote:Target lock. Kills two units a turn. Lysander breaks off after delivery to hassle. And as I said, the army is supported by a second, just as durable and deadly star.
The list had two units of scouts for squishees. Two stalkers for AA. Deathstars 1 and 2 and a distraction unit of Sanguinary Guard.
Split Fire will not kill 2 units a turn.
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Post by: Ascalam
I play DE. Work well for me.
Perhaps you should listen to the Net less and play more games so that you run across a 6th Ed DE player once in a while
No, i;m assuming that they are going to be in shoota range, assault range or packing big shootas/Deffgunz etc. Some of them will be outside of range, to be sure, but enough should be in range each turn to give the unit a good hosing.
It isn't impossible to get 100 shootas within range of the unit though. 5 battlewagons would do it, and allow for 20 big shootas and 5 kannon as well, while still leaving plenty of board space to pack other stuff in around them. Sure the BW will eventually go down, but in the mean time they make decent rolling bunkers.
SAG works well for me. Highly reliable (for orks) AP 2 high strength shooting that almost always lands somewhere near where you want it. Sure it does occasionally gonzo, but small price to pay in a codex that is very short on AP 2.
Burnawagon x 1 might not - burnawagon x 3 probably will get one at least in range, especially if you are wasting fire on a boyz unit like in the example. Even if you target the wagons with everything you have you'll not be able to stop EVERYTHING from reaching you before it's too late.
You're ignoring the whole Ork army in your response, and the Deathstar in question is a huge whack of your points, which doesn't leave you much of a main contingent to ally to.
Feel free to though. I'd love to take this list on, and if you are ever in Salem, OR please bring it down to Borderlands Games.
What were you planning on allying it to?
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Post by: Ravenous D
PrinceRaven wrote: TheKbob wrote: PrinceRaven wrote:I would assault it with a single Flyrant and kill 665 points of things with a 260-285 point model.
Or Lysander tanks you like a boss and kills you. He will issue a challenge, get a reroll (two with corbulo) potentially), and squash your bug.
I was responding to the first deathstar, which was Tigerius+Centurions. As far as dealing with that Lysander+ Corbulo deathstar I'd go "thanks for concentrating all those points into one unit for me, I'm gonna ignore it and kill your squishies, have fun only killing one unit per turn".
Well the Flyrant would have to get into their 30" threat range in order to assault so.....
9 grav hits, 5 hurricane bolter hits on average, assuming he doesn't fail the ground check and the hurricane bolters do nothing, and he evades you're looking at a dead or best case nearly dead, hive tyrant.
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Post by: Fragile
Ravenous D wrote: PrinceRaven wrote: TheKbob wrote: PrinceRaven wrote:I would assault it with a single Flyrant and kill 665 points of things with a 260-285 point model.
Or Lysander tanks you like a boss and kills you. He will issue a challenge, get a reroll (two with corbulo) potentially), and squash your bug.
I was responding to the first deathstar, which was Tigerius+Centurions. As far as dealing with that Lysander+ Corbulo deathstar I'd go "thanks for concentrating all those points into one unit for me, I'm gonna ignore it and kill your squishies, have fun only killing one unit per turn".
Well the Flyrant would have to get into their 30" threat range in order to assault so.....
9 grav hits, 5 hurricane bolter hits on average, assuming he doesn't fail the ground check and the hurricane bolters do nothing, and he evades you're looking at a dead or best case nearly dead, hive tyrant.
And then for the same point as your Deathstar, the other Flyrant lands and assaults. And your dead.
We can play Internet 40k all night long, it matters not until the models are on the table and the dice are being rolled. Anything can take out this deathstar when played properly.
Centurions are a great threat when played right. Usually deployed out of a LR, or SR (personal fav.). A walking Centurion squad will just be heavy weapon bait and probably combat ineffective when it gets in range.
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Post by: TheKbob
Few things.
First, I already said that a list containing this type of deathstar went 5-1 at Feast of Blades Open. It's powerful and a good general makes it better.
Next, sixth is becoming rock paper scissors more than precious editions. You can scheme counters to this list that will fall greatly short.
Next, you buy a massive chapter master as your wounds sink as he's more killy and resilient than a land raider in today's meta unless you supremely over burden the cost of the unit. It's good, but it's not a Swiss army knife like a Paladin Star or Seer council. It stops things like a hive tyrant flying in to kill it because Lysander or the CM of Doom will squish that bug.
Last, target lock can kill two units a turn determining on your movement and target priority. Or you can guarantee to super kill just about any other unit. And it has a ton of resiliency played like I mentioned even if you use a normal sang priest over corbulo. The gents who schemed this list aren't dumb (wrecking crew I believe), one of the best tournament players.
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Post by: Vineheart01
My bikernobz would eat that unit alive....unless youre one of those people that like to play on open battlefields where theres virtually 0 LOS blocking terrain, bikes can easily snag that unit. Bikerboss causes pastes, bigchoppas/nob pk's cause a lot of wounds, lot of which you dont get your 2+ for.
Yet to find anything that doesnt have a high invul save or an MC that swings before me that will beat my bikernobz in combat. Lot of targets i get whacked in the process but i didnt lose. Boss + painboy +2-3 nobz are usually alive afterwords unless its something crazy like a Swarmlord lol. Dev Cents are purely guns, too. Once i get them, game over as you need some nice luck to even hurt me.
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Post by: xruslanx
There's never been such a thing as a "true" deathstars. Even in their prime in 5th they had weaknesses - GK paladins died like bitches to the Imperial Guard.
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Post by: Fragile
TheKbob wrote:Few things.
First, I already said that a list containing this type of deathstar went 5-1 at Feast of Blades Open. It's powerful and a good general makes it better.
Next, sixth is becoming rock paper scissors more than precious editions. You can scheme counters to this list that will fall greatly short.
Next, you buy a massive chapter master as your wounds sink as he's more killy and resilient than a land raider in today's meta unless you supremely over burden the cost of the unit. It's good, but it's not a Swiss army knife like a Paladin Star or Seer council. It stops things like a hive tyrant flying in to kill it because Lysander or the CM of Doom will squish that bug.
Last, target lock can kill two units a turn determining on your movement and target priority. Or you can guarantee to super kill just about any other unit. And it has a ton of resiliency played like I mentioned even if you use a normal sang priest over corbulo. The gents who schemed this list aren't dumb (wrecking crew I believe), one of the best tournament players.
So what are you target locking with, to kill two units with this Centurion squad ?
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Post by: Happyjew
Fragile wrote: TheKbob wrote:Few things.
First, I already said that a list containing this type of deathstar went 5-1 at Feast of Blades Open. It's powerful and a good general makes it better.
Next, sixth is becoming rock paper scissors more than precious editions. You can scheme counters to this list that will fall greatly short.
Next, you buy a massive chapter master as your wounds sink as he's more killy and resilient than a land raider in today's meta unless you supremely over burden the cost of the unit. It's good, but it's not a Swiss army knife like a Paladin Star or Seer council. It stops things like a hive tyrant flying in to kill it because Lysander or the CM of Doom will squish that bug.
Last, target lock can kill two units a turn determining on your movement and target priority. Or you can guarantee to super kill just about any other unit. And it has a ton of resiliency played like I mentioned even if you use a normal sang priest over corbulo. The gents who schemed this list aren't dumb (wrecking crew I believe), one of the best tournament players.
So what are you target locking with, to kill two units with this Centurion squad ?
I'm really curious as to how 15 shots wounding on 6's is going to kill 30 models.
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Post by: Exergy
TheKbob wrote:
Last, target lock can kill two units a turn determining on your movement and target priority. Or you can guarantee to super kill just about any other unit. And it has a ton of resiliency played like I mentioned even if you use a normal sang priest over corbulo. The gents who schemed this list aren't dumb (wrecking crew I believe), one of the best tournament players.
A normal Sang Priest does nothing as only BA units gain FNP, so if you attach a priest he has FNP but the cents do not. Automatically Appended Next Post: Happyjew wrote:Fragile wrote: TheKbob wrote:Few things.
First, I already said that a list containing this type of deathstar went 5-1 at Feast of Blades Open. It's powerful and a good general makes it better.
Next, sixth is becoming rock paper scissors more than precious editions. You can scheme counters to this list that will fall greatly short.
Next, you buy a massive chapter master as your wounds sink as he's more killy and resilient than a land raider in today's meta unless you supremely over burden the cost of the unit. It's good, but it's not a Swiss army knife like a Paladin Star or Seer council. It stops things like a hive tyrant flying in to kill it because Lysander or the CM of Doom will squish that bug.
Last, target lock can kill two units a turn determining on your movement and target priority. Or you can guarantee to super kill just about any other unit. And it has a ton of resiliency played like I mentioned even if you use a normal sang priest over corbulo. The gents who schemed this list aren't dumb (wrecking crew I believe), one of the best tournament players.
So what are you target locking with, to kill two units with this Centurion squad ?
I'm really curious as to how 15 shots wounding on 6's is going to kill 30 models.
to be fair, they get to reroll to wound, which is statisically similar to wounding on 5's.
Still not going to kill 30 orks, less so if they are in cover. About as effective as 15 lasguns. The hurricane bolters are probably better at killing orks, but you need missiles to avoid getting outranged. Automatically Appended Next Post: TheKbob wrote:
Next, sixth is becoming rock paper scissors more than precious editions. You can scheme counters to this list that will fall greatly short.
Next, you buy a massive chapter master as your wounds sink as he's more killy and resilient than a land raider in today's meta unless you supremely over burden the cost of the unit. It's good, but it's not a Swiss army knife like a Paladin Star or Seer council. It stops things like a hive tyrant flying in to kill it because Lysander or the CM of Doom will squish that bug.
They certainly are a rock. They can punk a lot of units. I would interject that DE seem to be paper in a meta full of scissors.
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Post by: Asmodai Asmodean
A lot of valid points in this thread but a lot of stupidity as well. Obviously they'll fold to pressure from 2++ rerollable DPs and seerstars, what doesn't?
In assembling the Centurion Deathstar you need to cover a lot of bases:
A) Survivability- they need an invuln of some sort, and FNP. Better yet, some one tough to stand in front to tank the wounds.
Solution: Corbulo is a nice trick but you have to then take BA, who are kind of crap at the moment. 2+ 3++ 5+ FNP. Chapter Master or O'Vesa.
B) Mobility- 6" doesn't quite cut it.
Solution: This depends on matchup, but ideally you want to be able to place them where they can do the most damage. Gate of Infinity (Tigurius or Sevrin Loth guarantees it), scouting White Scars Land Raider...
C) Utility- Slow and Purposeful really sucks. Any Deathstar worth its salt also needs Hit and Run. Prescience and Ignores Cover would also hugely benefit the unit.
Solution: Tau Buff Commander, Tigurius/ Sevrin for Endurance
My version of the Centurion Deathstar rolls O'Vesa, Torchstar, Shavastos and Sevrin, although Tigurius is better all round I think.
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Post by: ALEXisAWESOME
Its funny how useless this 700pt unit is against my DE. They truly pose no threat, at all, to anything. I either ignore it or pump enough splinters into it until it drops. Or my other Seer Star list would roll up with a 2+ cover save (Heck, have your ignore cover malediction, I have a 3+ deny the witch, usually with re-rolls. Always take one Runes of Warding) usually re-rollable. Then you face 18 twin linked rending shots and a butt-load of fleshbane attacks. A list spending that much on a unit like that shouldn't be a good list, and the one at feast of blades must of had lucky opponents. It will never be an ultra competitive list because in some matches it will be worthless, and in a tourney you need to be able to counter everything that is thrown at you, not just hope for a list you can take.
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Post by: Jihadin
One "special" Space Marine with a rocket launcher can do it. Just one missile....just have to trust him to get the shot....also a Stornraven to distract the Centurions for the last few rounds...
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Post by: Asmodai Asmodean
ALEXisAWESOME wrote:Its funny how useless this 700pt unit is against my DE. They truly pose no threat, at all, to anything. I either ignore it or pump enough splinters into it until it drops. Or my other Seer Star list would roll up with a 2+ cover save (Heck, have your ignore cover malediction, I have a 3+ deny the witch, usually with re-rolls. Always take one Runes of Warding) usually re-rollable. Then you face 18 twin linked rending shots and a butt-load of fleshbane attacks. A list spending that much on a unit like that shouldn't be a good list, and the one at feast of blades must of had lucky opponents. It will never be an ultra competitive list because in some matches it will be worthless, and in a tourney you need to be able to counter everything that is thrown at you, not just hope for a list you can take.
the Ignore Cover power (Perfect Timing) is a blessing you cast on your own unit, and you can't do anything to stop it. Even with a 4+ re-roll you're going to take heavy casualties from the amount of shots the Centstar puts out. 18 Twin-linked rending shots is a joke to Corbulo, the seerstar isn't paticularly great against 2+ saves anyway. Let's not pretend that DE are even close to being good in the current meta either. The inclusion of missile launchers on the Centstar will easily put down two DE paper planes a turn.
It's pretty absurd to attribute luck to a list you've never seen or fought. The results speak for themselves.
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Post by: Happyjew
Exergy wrote: TheKbob wrote:
Last, target lock can kill two units a turn determining on your movement and target priority. Or you can guarantee to super kill just about any other unit. And it has a ton of resiliency played like I mentioned even if you use a normal sang priest over corbulo. The gents who schemed this list aren't dumb (wrecking crew I believe), one of the best tournament players.
A normal Sang Priest does nothing as only BA units gain FNP, so if you attach a priest he has FNP but the cents do not.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Happyjew wrote:Fragile wrote: TheKbob wrote:Few things.
First, I already said that a list containing this type of deathstar went 5-1 at Feast of Blades Open. It's powerful and a good general makes it better.
Next, sixth is becoming rock paper scissors more than precious editions. You can scheme counters to this list that will fall greatly short.
Next, you buy a massive chapter master as your wounds sink as he's more killy and resilient than a land raider in today's meta unless you supremely over burden the cost of the unit. It's good, but it's not a Swiss army knife like a Paladin Star or Seer council. It stops things like a hive tyrant flying in to kill it because Lysander or the CM of Doom will squish that bug.
Last, target lock can kill two units a turn determining on your movement and target priority. Or you can guarantee to super kill just about any other unit. And it has a ton of resiliency played like I mentioned even if you use a normal sang priest over corbulo. The gents who schemed this list aren't dumb (wrecking crew I believe), one of the best tournament players.
So what are you target locking with, to kill two units with this Centurion squad ?
I'm really curious as to how 15 shots wounding on 6's is going to kill 30 models.
to be fair, they get to reroll to wound, which is statisically similar to wounding on 5's.
Still not going to kill 30 orks, less so if they are in cover. About as effective as 15 lasguns. The hurricane bolters are probably better at killing orks, but you need missiles to avoid getting outranged.
I'm sorry, let me rephrase that. I'm curious as to how 5 shots wounding on 6's (with re-rolls) is going to kill 30 models. (I forgot that Split Fire only allows a single model to fire at a different target).
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Post by: TheCustomLime
Medusae, Leman Russ Demolishers, Vindicators, Manticores (One failed save means dead duck), Vendettas, Lascannon/PG platoons and Plasma Vets. A lot of these options the centurions can't really damage reliably if at all. And they come cheaper to boot.
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Post by: felixcat
Maybe I am missing something but I see four HQs - Corbulo, Lysander, Dante, CM - how did that work? Dual FoC?
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Post by: hyv3mynd
Corbulo is elite. 2sm hq and 1 ba.
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Post by: HawaiiMatt
The shooting out put seems to be getting underestimated a little against naked/6+ enemies.
6+ to wound, with re-roll, is 30.5%
With 30 shots, it's slightly over 9 wounds.
Add in hurricane bolters and you're getting 17 wounds at long and 25 at short, against a 6+ T4 unit.
Against T3, it's ~20 wounds at long, and ~30 at short.
It's a little better than it is getting credit for.
-Matt
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Post by: Ravenous D
TheCustomLime wrote:Medusae, Leman Russ Demolishers, Vindicators, Manticores (One failed save means dead duck), Vendettas, Lascannon/ PG platoons and Plasma Vets. A lot of these options the centurions can't really damage reliably if at all. And they come cheaper to boot.
Manticores yes, (til they nerf them in the upcoming dex)
Demolishers and vindicators have the same threat range so its cat and mouse, that and the 50mm bases will mean only 1 or two will get hit at a time.
Vendettas will only knock one wound at a time and with either cover or the 4++ it will take some time. There might be other things in the army like storm talons.
Plasma vets will get 1 shot at 24", meaning they get in the zone of doom a turn or two before hand.
As for damaging reliably you are absolutely wrong. The sgt has pretty good odds of killing a tank on his own, and the rest of the unit will kill whatever vehicle or squad on their own. You're looking at 30 reroll hit/wound hits with grav weapons, against 5+ saves that's 14 wounds, plus the 18 bolter shots at 24" (36 shots at 12") from the hurricane bolters. Automatically Appended Next Post: HawaiiMatt wrote:The shooting out put seems to be getting underestimated a little against naked/6+ enemies.
6+ to wound, with re-roll, is 30.5%
With 30 shots, it's slightly over 9 wounds.
Add in hurricane bolters and you're getting 17 wounds at long and 25 at short, against a 6+ T4 unit.
Against T3, it's ~20 wounds at long, and ~30 at short.
It's a little better than it is getting credit for.
-Matt
I explained that back on page 1, but it seems that the group think is "needing 6s with rerolls wont kill anything!".
Honestly guys pick up some dice and try it, I wouldn't have posted it if it wasn't something to be aware of, more then likely some of you will run into it without the perfect situations, lists and bubbles you're suggesting in this thread.
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Post by: felixcat
I'm still a little surprised he used sang guard and dante ... was never impressed with sang guard overall but maybe i'm missing something. That squad is costly - what around 450-500 points? And you have your cent squad at what 550-650 points? I have to do the math. Surely there is a better secondary squad then Sang Guard?
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Post by: Ravenous D
felixcat wrote:
I'm still a little surprised he used sang guard and dante ... was never impressed with sang guard overall but maybe i'm missing something. That squad is costly - what around 450-500 points? And you have your cent squad at what 550-650 points? I have to do the math. Surely there is a better secondary squad then Sang Guard?
The original post 6 cents with tigger is 675pts. Personally I wouldn't add anything else. depending on what army you chose to surround it could be the gaming winning difference.
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Post by: TheCustomLime
Ravenous D wrote: TheCustomLime wrote:Medusae, Leman Russ Demolishers, Vindicators, Manticores (One failed save means dead duck), Vendettas, Lascannon/ PG platoons and Plasma Vets. A lot of these options the centurions can't really damage reliably if at all. And they come cheaper to boot.
Manticores yes, (til they nerf them in the upcoming dex)
Demolishers and vindicators have the same threat range so its cat and mouse, that and the 50mm bases will mean only 1 or two will get hit at a time.
Vendettas will only knock one wound at a time and with either cover or the 4++ it will take some time. There might be other things in the army like storm talons.
Plasma vets will get 1 shot at 24", meaning they get in the zone of doom a turn or two before hand.
As for damaging reliably you are absolutely wrong. The sgt has pretty good odds of killing a tank on his own, and the rest of the unit will kill whatever vehicle or squad on their own. You're looking at 30 reroll hit/wound hits with grav weapons, against 5+ saves that's 14 wounds, plus the 18 bolter shots at 24" (36 shots at 12") from the hurricane bolters.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
HawaiiMatt wrote:The shooting out put seems to be getting underestimated a little against naked/6+ enemies.
6+ to wound, with re-roll, is 30.5%
With 30 shots, it's slightly over 9 wounds.
Add in hurricane bolters and you're getting 17 wounds at long and 25 at short, against a 6+ T4 unit.
Against T3, it's ~20 wounds at long, and ~30 at short.
It's a little better than it is getting credit for.
-Matt
I explained that back on page 1, but it seems that the group think is "needing 6s with rerolls wont kill anything!".
Honestly guys pick up some dice and try it, I wouldn't have posted it if it wasn't something to be aware of, more then likely some of you will run into it without the perfect situations, lists and bubbles you're suggesting in this thread. 
Okay, I will give it to you that these things can kill Leman Russ tanks. Even without factoring the grav amp rerolling we are looking at one dead demolisher per shooting phase and possibly two with it.
However, for same price you can get 3 Demolishers and 3 S10 AP 2 Blast Templates means some sad Centurions. And then there is the Medusa with it's very own S10 AP 2 pieplate which outranges the Grav cannons. You can get 4 Medusa for the same price. Or three Manticore.
The centurions will do some damage before ultimately going down, so if you really want some dead guard tanks they aren't bad for it. Just be aware that they will probably die.
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Post by: Ravenous D
Guard probably have the best answer to it, haven't seen IG around as much lately, there needs to be more I think.
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Post by: Sargow
3 missle sides in a bastion. grave guns can't hurt it and bolters don't work.
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Post by: Poly Ranger
A couple of posts are underestimating the anti tank capsbilities - 30 grav shots rerolling to hit is ~ 26 hits, glancing on a 6 rerolling to glance gives ~ 8 glances. Thats 1.3 glances on average per cent. If ignoring cover, 3 cents will glance a raider to death if not moving... on average.
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Post by: Hulksmash
Guard aren't even that good of an answer. Between drop pods, thunderfires, and flyers the SM book has numerous answers for all kinds of issues. It's a solid unit that requires an army be built around it. But it's good enough that it WORTH building an army around if you choose too. Is it the strongest build, nope, but it's a good one.
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Post by: Senortaco
At 2000pt, the cent star could be accompanied by a pedro stern alphastike while coming in in a raven
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Post by: draegen
DA libby + tech with power field generator (pretty cheap) or azrael.... either of the 2 will grant them a 4++
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Post by: Poly Ranger
Also underestimating the firepower against t4 6+ targets. The grav cannons will kill ~8 whilst the hurricanes will kill ~16 on average.
(At 12"... between 12" and 24" it'll be 8 and 8.)
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Post by: AstraVlad
Marbo... just Marbo
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Post by: DarthDiggler
To the OP. Nurgle Spawn are the bane of Grav Gun Centurions. They need 6's to wound with all weapons.
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Post by: mazzHammer
I didn't think that the Grav-Cannon on Ceturians was twin-linked, as they replace their TL Heavy Bolter with a single Grav-Cannon and single Grav-Amp. Am I right?
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Post by: McNinja
minigun762 wrote:Said squad is what, nearly 700 points?
That's 5 Vindicators, of which I'm pretty sure you'd only need a few solid hits to really neuter the squad.
Beyond that, you just assault it to tie it up. No overwatch means you're fairly safe to charge it and even if you lose after 2-3 turns, you've still kept the rest of the army safe from the crazy firepower it will bring.
One hit. Barring FnP, a solid hit from a Vindicator will wreck the entire unit. Automatically Appended Next Post: mazzHammer wrote:I didn't think that the Grav-Cannon on Ceturians was twin-linked, as they replace their TL Heavy Bolter with a single Grav-Cannon and single Grav- Amp. Am I right?
Yes, you are.
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Post by: Exergy
mazzHammer wrote:I didn't think that the Grav-Cannon on Ceturians was twin-linked, as they replace their TL Heavy Bolter with a single Grav-Cannon and single Grav- Amp. Am I right?
yes, they are not twinlinked. People are assuming you are buffing the squad with psykic powers.
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Post by: Poly Ranger
Exergy wrote: mazzHammer wrote:I didn't think that the Grav-Cannon on Ceturians was twin-linked, as they replace their TL Heavy Bolter with a single Grav-Cannon and single Grav- Amp. Am I right?
yes, they are not twinlinked. People are assuming you are buffing the squad with psykic powers.
Exactly that ^. We are after all talking about a 6 man grav cent squad with tiggy who has taken prescience. See the OP.
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Post by: Exergy
Poly Ranger wrote:Also underestimating the firepower against t4 6+ targets. The grav cannons will kill ~8 whilst the hurricanes will kill ~16 on average.
(At 12"... between 12" and 24" it'll be 8 and 8.)
which for a 700 point unit is rather weak.
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Post by: Poly Ranger
655pt (but that is spitting straws). My point is that the thing they LEAST want to shoot still suffers massive damage. That would be their least optimum target yet they cause 24 casualties. Automatically Appended Next Post: Haha that should read *splitting.
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Post by: Exergy
Poly Ranger wrote:655pt (but that is spitting straws). My point is that the thing they LEAST want to shoot still suffers massive damage. That would be their least optimum target yet they cause 24 casualties.
Assuming the orks are out of cover, which isnt likey to happen for 30 models anywhere and that the orks are within 12" (meaning that all of the cents are within 12" of one ork) That is pretty close
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Post by: Poly Ranger
Psychic powers... we are talking about the optimal load out/powrs right? Even if only half are within 12" that's still 20 dead orks.
Lets imagine they don't ignore cover and they are all further than 12" away. Thats 16 dead orks since you focus fire on the orks out of cover (its huge terrain if you aren't bunching and you've managed to get over 14 orks in cover, if you are bunching, then blasts will be ripping the orks a new one). Being further than 12" away also means the orks are not an immediate threat. Automatically Appended Next Post: Just realised you said out of cover too :-p.
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Post by: DarknessEternal
Poly Ranger wrote:Psychic powers... we are talking about the optimal load out/powrs right? Even if only half are within 12" that's still 20 dead orks.
Lets imagine they don't ignore cover and they are all further than 12" away. Thats 16 dead orks
That leaves 90 or 94 orks left. You get 110 orks for the price of this unit.
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Post by: Exergy
DarknessEternal wrote:Poly Ranger wrote:Psychic powers... we are talking about the optimal load out/powrs right? Even if only half are within 12" that's still 20 dead orks.
Lets imagine they don't ignore cover and they are all further than 12" away. Thats 16 dead orks
That leaves 90 or 94 orks left. You get 110 orks for the price of this unit.
and somehow they are all within 12" and about to charge.
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Post by: Poly Ranger
DarknessEternal wrote:Poly Ranger wrote:Psychic powers... we are talking about the optimal load out/powrs right? Even if only half are within 12" that's still 20 dead orks.
Lets imagine they don't ignore cover and they are all further than 12" away. Thats 16 dead orks
That leaves 90 or 94 orks left. You get 110 orks for the price of this unit.
You're missing the point im making - that even against the LEAST optimal target they will still gut a squad. Yes you can get 111 orks (hell - you can get 133 termegants) for almost the same price, but other units can deal with these. Their job isn't to take these units on... but they can. 111 orks would prove a challenge for lysander and 10 th/ ss termis, but you wouldnt say they aren't a threat in assault. And as Exergy says - try getting 111 orks into 12" charge range. Grav cents aren't great point for point against horde... but neither are most 665pts worth of models. You don't rate the effectiveness of honour guard by calculating how many grots they can kill, so why use the cents least optimal target to rate their effectiveness? Remember that they will be supported by other units.
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Post by: DarknessEternal
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Post by: TheKbob
To the previous argument about killing 30 ork boys....
... the two thunderfire cannons will help with that just fine.
Deathstars aren't in a vacuum, and as one, this is GROSS. It's not a metric ton of points and can be supported with efficient units found within both the SM and BA codex.
I beat a boys spam list with my Draigowing... yea, I had 1W left on Draigo, Coteaz, and a Paladin at the end of the game, but my three dreadknights wrecked the house and I won with my opponent having 3 dakkajets left. I have shifted my 6E gaming to more elite units and they can still win, you just need the proper support.
(Edit, as reference, the Tiggy squad + 6 Cents is BAD. The Shield Eternal Iron Hands Chapter + Corbulo + 4 Cents = Win. I've seen it clean up very, very, very well first hand. It will vape a Seer Council, O'Vesa Star, and many other shenanigans builds. Add a BA Libby with TDA/SS for lulz)
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Post by: Niexist
7 deathwing knights with a basic libby in a land raider right next to your deathstar, they have prescience on 22 attacks+7 hammer of wraths, 18 of which are AP2 str 10 ID
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Post by: Martel732
TheKbob wrote:To the previous argument about killing 30 ork boys....
... the two thunderfire cannons will help with that just fine.
Deathstars aren't in a vacuum, and as one, this is GROSS. It's not a metric ton of points and can be supported with efficient units found within both the SM and BA codex.
I beat a boys spam list with my Draigowing... yea, I had 1W left on Draigo, Coteaz, and a Paladin at the end of the game, but my three dreadknights wrecked the house and I won with my opponent having 3 dakkajets left. I have shifted my 6E gaming to more elite units and they can still win, you just need the proper support.
(Edit, as reference, the Tiggy squad + 6 Cents is BAD. The Shield Eternal Iron Hands Chapter + Corbulo + 4 Cents = Win. I've seen it clean up very, very, very well first hand. It will vape a Seer Council, O'Vesa Star, and many other shenanigans builds. Add a BA Libby with TDA/ SS for lulz)
I agree this is potent, but not in the league of screamerstar or seer council. And I must protest the above statement about BA. We have no efficient units currently
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Post by: Zuul
Would artillery be an option to turn them into a fine red mist?
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Post by: Martel732
AP 2 artillery, but they have very fat bases. The simplest problem I see is Eldar skimmers with 36" firepower that they can never close with. And whatever nonsense the Tau lob at them. The point is they are more vulnerable than true death stars.
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Post by: TheKbob
Corbulo is FANTASTIC and the BA Storm Raven is one of the best, if not the best, AA-Aircraft in the game (that's not Forgeworld).
The Termietubby star would scrap a Seer Council as they will either have a 3+ armor, or likely a 2+ armor if they are dumb. Rerollable 4++ means you're still killing many with the grav cannon spam. So basically you force them to the edge and cover your army as much as possible.
I propose a list I ginned up in 5 minutes for digestion, no points values, but it's at 2K:
Primary (IRON HANDS)
++Chapter Master++
-Bike, Artificer Armor, Shield Eternal, Power Fist
++Legionne of the Damned (x6)++
Flamer, Heavy Flamer
++Scouts (x5)++
-Snipers, Camo Cloaks
++Scouts (x5)++
-Snipers, Camo Cloaks
++Stormtalon Gunship++
Skyhammer Missiles
++Stormtalon Gunship++
Skyhammer Missiles
++Termietubbies (x4)++
-Grav-cannons, Omniscope, Sgt has chest missiles
++Thunderfire Cannon++
++Thunderfire Cannon++
Allies (BLOOD ANGELS)
++Libby++
-Termi Armor, SS, 2 Divination Powers (or others, game dependant)
++Corbulo++
++Assault Marines (x10)++
-2x Flamers
++Storm Raven++
-TLLC, TLMM, Blood Strikes
With that army, you're going to have plenty of AT and infantry roasting power. Yea, the troops are weak and could be tweaked (cheaper BA marines, put bike troops with gravy, w/e, I hate bike models and put the Chapter Master on one just to absorb S8,S9 hits and still get a 6++ and to break away to punch things late in the game). But that'd be a GROSS 2000 pt list to face. With the Chapter Master up front (and average unit toughness of 5!!!) they are as durable or more so than my Paladin Star that has Draigo up front absorbing fire power. Draigo dies a lot, but he also doesn't have ITWND and a 24" thread range like the Iron Hands CM on bike. Also, you have a ton of serious firepower backing you up in the TFCs and flyers. The tech marines provide synergy well with the camo cloak scouts to have 2+ cover scoring units.
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Post by: Martel732
I think that 2000 pts of Eldar will melt this list. 2K Eldar can shell out 60+ W a turn. This list can't absorb that.
The seer council has the luxury of moving in after your stuff is softened up. Movement is cool like that.
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Post by: TheKbob
Martel732 wrote:I think that 2000 pts of Eldar will melt this list. 2K Eldar can shell out 60+ W a turn. This list can't absorb that.
Comparing any list to 2K of Eldar isn't exactly what I call "fair". The Eldar book is the best out there. Hooray. That adds what to the discussion. We can say a Screamerstar kills them too, but we all know a rerollable 2++ is broken.
In every other game of 40k that doesn't feature knowingly broken units, this can vaporize.
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Post by: Martel732
That's like saying my #3 football team can win if the number 1 and 2 teams aren't allowed to play. The screamerstar and seer council are the deathstar standards, just as the Vendetta and Helldrake are the standards for fliers. We can't toss those data points because we don't like them.
The title of the thread is "kill this unit". If it can't survive the Tau/Eldar, it's not much of a deathstar.
The Vendetta is much better than the BA Stormraven from an efficiency point of view as well. The BA Stormraven, like all Stormravens, pays for a lot of useless wargear.
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Post by: TheKbob
Oh, so you mean like the standings of the past major GTs...
There's the Eldar/Tau game with their deathstars, then everything else. Dunno about you, but I don't see anyone playing Screamerstar, O'Vesa Star or Seercouncils in my local meta. Why?
Because you're huge jerk for bringing them.
If you face them often, then I say don't and refuse to play them. It's not like comparing football teams at all. It's called knowingly broken units in the game that you are a terrible person if you run them outside of a WAAC tournament. And even then, people like Nick Rose still win without using them. OR you can beat a Seer Council if they don't get Fortune or Screamerstar if they fail their grimoire rolls. Fun games of 40k right there...
Planning a true TAC list is almost impossible with the current 6E meta. Planning a hard list that will have some bad match ups is the name of the game these days. As one of the latter lists, the "tubby star" or "centstar" is great.
The Vendetta is undercosted and will be raised in points in the next IG book. As it stands, the BA Stormraven is the best all-around utility variant and is excellent for what it does. Again, comparing solid/good units to almost broken one isn't a fair fight. And a Vendetta that's on the board facing a Stormraven flying with all that Strength "Yes!" AP "Lots!" firepower will sweat.
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Post by: Martel732
Why is someone a jerk for bringing a quality list? I face this stuff all the time as my play group loves their net lists. This could be why I found the C:SM codex a bit lackluster. That, and the internal balance still sucks hard.
If I refused to play them, I wouldn't get to play. First it was the sea of Vendettas. Then Helldrakes. Now Taudar. I had a horrible feeling the marines wouldn't get their turn, and they really didn't. I can't even try to hard counter Taudar, because there are still triple helldrake lists and a Vendetta spammer.
Of course, this probably explains why I've been playing Starcraft a lot more lately.
But it will be 1.5 vendettas per Stormraven. The Stormravens are the one sweating. Trust me, I've never gotten over on Vendetta spam. Lascannons are too potent against AV 12.
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Post by: TheKbob
If you're routinely facing Seercouncil and Screamerstar, that's a bad area to play, I'm sorry.
Taudar, okay one thing. Bringing tough lists, great. But bringing a unit that goes "If I get the right power, we're playing a game and you're the only one removing models," is super fun, right?
Your meta sounds like crap. And I'm a power gamer. There's hard lists and then lists where no one has fun because the units are flat out broken.
The marines codex is awesome when you remove the obviously broken crap in the current 40k scene. If you want to include screamerstar and seer council, then you might as well not play if they roll the power they need. GG, you lost.
So steering back to the topic, the CM + Corbulo + Cents unit is extremely powerful and difficult to kill, but doesn't cost more than 700 points. Even at 1500, that's leaving 800 points to flesh out the armies. For a power unit, it's awesome. Seen a lot of my friends try play testing it to much hilarity as their opponents gently poo themselves a bit at how resilient it is to almost all fire power (even wave serpents and broadside spam!)
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Post by: Martel732
Removing the broken crap has always been the holy grail of 40K. But GW is a fail at arithmetic. I've told one of the devs this to their face at a con, but I'm sure they don't give a damn.
I still blame the Taudar at the end of the day because people bring unkillable deathstars to survive the obscene firepower. I have literally been picking up models like it was back to 2nd edition. You know, where the Warp Spiders had instant death flamer templates that reduced armor saves the more they stacked them?
Actually, the big hope against Screamer star and seer council to to TFC their faces off before they go. So we are now down to who goes first. Pathetic.
I'm not buying any cents until I see that the BA get them.
If I seem edgy on these boards, it's because I'm having flashbacks to 2nd edition. Which was horrible for loyalist marines. They couldn't beat a single list in that edition. It's obviously not that bad, but people don't seem to play the things marines can throw down with effectively in my area.
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Post by: TheKbob
I just don't play anyone with a list involving a rerollable 2+ save style power unit. In the end, I'm the winner
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Post by: Martel732
I can't blame them for using something GW put in. I blame GW, not the player. Buy a calculator GW.
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Post by: TheKbob
Martel732 wrote:I can't blame them for using something GW put in. I blame GW, not the player. Buy a calculator GW.
Eh, GW has always made shoddy rules. And I'll blame the player day and night if they bring a Screamerstar or other broken crap. It's funny. Once.
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Post by: Martel732
I guess it's a philosophical position. One would think that GW would eventually learn, but they never do.
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Post by: Exergy
Poly Ranger wrote: DarknessEternal wrote:Poly Ranger wrote:Psychic powers... we are talking about the optimal load out/powrs right? Even if only half are within 12" that's still 20 dead orks.
Lets imagine they don't ignore cover and they are all further than 12" away. Thats 16 dead orks
That leaves 90 or 94 orks left. You get 110 orks for the price of this unit.
You're missing the point im making - that even against the LEAST optimal target they will still gut a squad. Yes you can get 111 orks (hell - you can get 133 termegants) for almost the same price, but other units can deal with these. Their job isn't to take these units on... but they can. 111 orks would prove a challenge for lysander and 10 th/ ss termis, but you wouldnt say they aren't a threat in assault. And as Exergy says - try getting 111 orks into 12" charge range. Grav cents aren't great point for point against horde... but neither are most 665pts worth of models. You don't rate the effectiveness of honour guard by calculating how many grots they can kill, so why use the cents least optimal target to rate their effectiveness? Remember that they will be supported by other units.
The point is that this unit costs 665 points, is short ranged, slow, and is terrible against hordes. Add in 2 TFC and this has more range and is better against hordes, but now it costs 865 points.
You need not get the orks into charge range, you simply need to threaten them. By moving 30 ork boys in a nice spread out fashion near the cents you are denying the cents from moving. They can close in and shoot, but they arent going to kill many orks (as the orks will be in cover and are orks)or they can move away. Getting stuck in combat with even just 1 mob of 30 would be terrible.
Imagine if you will that there is even a small nob bikestar hanging back flanked by 2 units of 30 boys. The boys are spread out to near the max and are slowly marching foward towards the cents. The cents cannot get all of their number to shoot at the orks, and those that do are going to be at long range for the bolters. They arent going to kill many orks. The bikes keep moving foward but always staying out of the range of most of the cents. If the cents move towards the bikes, they are in charge range, and if charged they will die.
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Post by: Poly Ranger
Which is exactly why other units are used to deal with those orks. 30 orks are never going to all be in cover! Again the point im making is that this is the least optimal target! You just used 60 ork boyz and a nob biker squad in your example to combat the cent squad, that is still a significant investment of points. I have not advocated that it is the best unit in the game or anywhere near it, just that people have underexaggerated its effectiveness against vehicles and horde. 16-24 kills (on average) at the right moment is not terrible at all, even if this is only ~120ish pts. Automatically Appended Next Post: Besides - you are not investing in them to combat horde!
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Post by: Martel732
It's not Orks I would worry about, as I stated above. I don't think Tau, Eldar, or Daemons would care about this deathstar. So we'll call it a "bullystar". It can whip up on the 2nd tier codices.
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Post by: Illumini
The orks would do much better in wagons, there is no way they are getting there on foot. The cents are only likely to take out one wagon each turn though. So three rushing wagons should get two units in there.
Beasts/cavalry with poor save is what this unit fears the most, so deamons is a big pain for this unit.
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Post by: Exergy
Poly Ranger wrote:Which is exactly why other units are used to deal with those orks. 30 orks are never going to all be in cover!
So either they all get cover because some are in cover, or you focus fire the ones out of cover, but then you are killing less of them. It is really unlikely that the number out of cover is going to magically be the number that you can on average kill.
Even if you the numbers suggest that you will kill on average 15 orks and 15 orks just so happen to be out of cover while the rest are in 4+ cover and you choose to FF those out of cover you are now killing less than 15 orks. The average 15 orks you think you can kill is actually all possible likelyhoods multipled by their chance of occuring summed. There are a large number of possibilities that kill 14 or less orks and a large number of possibilities that kill 16 or more orks and a few possibilities that kill exactly 15 orks. By FF you are limiting all results that kill 16 or more orks to 15. Summed in an average you are now expecting to kill considerably less orks.
Example. You are shooting 3 orks with a 3 bolters at long range. Two orks are in 4+ cover. One is not in cover. If you are shooting them out of cover, one would expect 2 hits, 1 wound, 1 dead ork. If you shoot in cover one would expect 1/2 dead orks. If you focus fire the one ork out of cover, it gets more complex.
Out of cover there is a chance your 3 shots will:
kill 3 orks(three hits three wounds)3.7%
kill 2 orks(three hits, two wounds)11.1%
kill 2 orks(two hits, two wounds)11.1%
kill 1 ork(three hits, one wound)11.1%
kill 1 ork(two hits, one wound)22.2%
kill 1 ork(one hit, one wound)11.1%
kill 0 orks(three hits no wounds)3.7%
kill 0 orks(two hits no wounds)11.1%
kill 0 orks(one hit no wounds)11.1%
kill 0 orks(no hits)11.1%
When you add up those percentages times the number of orks they kill you get to 1. On average 1 ork killed.
If you FF and limit yourself to 1 ork killed your average orks killed goes down to .7, 70% of an ork killed.
So against 4+ cover it is better to focus fire in this case, but if it was 5+ cover your expected orks killed is only slightly higher.
In short, focus firing diminishes the number of average unsaved wounds you will cause, unless there are more models out of cover than you have shots.
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Post by: Poly Ranger
I like your mathmatical reasoning. If focus firing on a unit of 30 and say 16 are out of cover (as this is the average kills on the whole squad being classed out of cover and over 12" away, so im making it simple for theories sake), 50% of the time due to the bell curve you will kill 16, however due to the fact you cannot possibly kill more as you are only focus firing on 16, the lower kill count the other 50% of the time will indeed bring the average down. You are however still looking at killing 16 orks 50% of the time in this case. Also due to the exponential decrease of the curve, the majority of the other 50% will still be looking at 12 or over killed. Any less starts to be anomolous results more than 1 standard deviation away. The average in this case will be reduced but not by a huge margin.
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Post by: cammy
Dark Eldar Beast squads would tear this unit a new one, especially with a large amount of Kyhmeras and razorwing flock.
Although i havnt math hammed this out i think the unit would be able to take the hits from the Cents, and then dish back a world of pain while closing extremely quickly.
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Post by: DarknessEternal
TheKbob wrote:
The Termietubby star would scrap a Seer Council as they will either have a 3+ armor, or likely a 2+ armor if they are dumb.
There is no way for an Eldar seer council to have a 2+ majority armour save.
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Post by: Exergy
Poly Ranger wrote:I like your mathmatical reasoning. If focus firing on a unit of 30 and say 16 are out of cover (as this is the average kills on the whole squad being classed out of cover and over 12" away, so im making it simple for theories sake), 50% of the time due to the bell curve you will kill 16, however due to the fact you cannot possibly kill more as you are only focus firing on 16, the lower kill count the other 50% of the time will indeed bring the average down. You are however still looking at killing 16 orks 50% of the time in this case. Also due to the exponential decrease of the curve, the majority of the other 50% will still be looking at 12 or over killed. Any less starts to be anomolous results more than 1 standard deviation away. The average in this case will be reduced but not by a huge margin.
I am not saying it is a huge difference, but 12 is less than 16, just as .7 is less than 1 in my simple example.
Remember that the distribution is not normal but binomial(which is only losely similar to the normal)
The bolters are going to follow skew, being very likely to hit and 50% chance to wound
The grav cannons are going to be very boom or bust, very likely to hit but very unlikely to wound(with a ton of shots)
Roll 5 dice together. There are a ton of outcomes that contain no 6s
Roll 30 dice together, there are a ton of outcomes with less than 5 6s
With this boom or bust nature, there is going to be very uneven. Lets ignore the Hurricanes just for a second and talk about 8 orks dead due to the grav cannons.
Some times you are only going to kill 1-3 orks while other times you will kill 20. Limiting yourself to 8 would really bring down your expected kills.
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Post by: Thud
DarknessEternal wrote: TheKbob wrote:
The Termietubby star would scrap a Seer Council as they will either have a 3+ armor, or likely a 2+ armor if they are dumb.
There is no way for an Eldar seer council to have a 2+ majority armour save.
The only way would be a psychic power giving them +1 to their armour save, and that certainly doesn't exist. And if it did, no one in the Seer Council would be able to take it.
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Post by: Exergy
Thud wrote: DarknessEternal wrote: TheKbob wrote:
The Termietubby star would scrap a Seer Council as they will either have a 3+ armor, or likely a 2+ armor if they are dumb.
There is no way for an Eldar seer council to have a 2+ majority armour save.
The only way would be a psychic power giving them +1 to their armour save, and that certainly doesn't exist. And if it did, no one in the Seer Council would be able to take it.
they probably wouldnt cast it when they are about to engadge a centstar. It isnt required that you cast it.
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Post by: Thud
Exergy wrote:Thud wrote: DarknessEternal wrote: TheKbob wrote:
The Termietubby star would scrap a Seer Council as they will either have a 3+ armor, or likely a 2+ armor if they are dumb.
There is no way for an Eldar seer council to have a 2+ majority armour save.
The only way would be a psychic power giving them +1 to their armour save, and that certainly doesn't exist. And if it did, no one in the Seer Council would be able to take it.
they probably wouldnt cast it when they are about to engadge a centstar. It isnt required that you cast it.
Of course not. But there is a way for a Seer Council to have a majority 2+ armour save. Which was my point.
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Post by: Poly Ranger
Exergy wrote:Poly Ranger wrote:I like your mathmatical reasoning. If focus firing on a unit of 30 and say 16 are out of cover (as this is the average kills on the whole squad being classed out of cover and over 12" away, so im making it simple for theories sake), 50% of the time due to the bell curve you will kill 16, however due to the fact you cannot possibly kill more as you are only focus firing on 16, the lower kill count the other 50% of the time will indeed bring the average down. You are however still looking at killing 16 orks 50% of the time in this case. Also due to the exponential decrease of the curve, the majority of the other 50% will still be looking at 12 or over killed. Any less starts to be anomolous results more than 1 standard deviation away. The average in this case will be reduced but not by a huge margin.
I am not saying it is a huge difference, but 12 is less than 16, just as .7 is less than 1 in my simple example.
Remember that the distribution is not normal but binomial(which is only losely similar to the normal)
The bolters are going to follow skew, being very likely to hit and 50% chance to wound
The grav cannons are going to be very boom or bust, very likely to hit but very unlikely to wound(with a ton of shots)
Roll 5 dice together. There are a ton of outcomes that contain no 6s
Roll 30 dice together, there are a ton of outcomes with less than 5 6s
With this boom or bust nature, there is going to be very uneven. Lets ignore the Hurricanes just for a second and talk about 8 orks dead due to the grav cannons.
Some times you are only going to kill 1-3 orks while other times you will kill 20. Limiting yourself to 8 would really bring down your expected kills.
Good points.
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Post by: Tactical_Genius
Thud wrote: DarknessEternal wrote: TheKbob wrote:
The Termietubby star would scrap a Seer Council as they will either have a 3+ armor, or likely a 2+ armor if they are dumb.
There is no way for an Eldar seer council to have a 2+ majority armour save.
The only way would be a psychic power giving them +1 to their armour save, and that certainly doesn't exist. And if it did, no one in the Seer Council would be able to take it.
Um... Is this sarcasm...?
Because... Protect?
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Post by: McNinja
Tactical_Genius wrote:Thud wrote: DarknessEternal wrote: TheKbob wrote:
The Termietubby star would scrap a Seer Council as they will either have a 3+ armor, or likely a 2+ armor if they are dumb.
There is no way for an Eldar seer council to have a 2+ majority armour save.
The only way would be a psychic power giving them +1 to their armour save, and that certainly doesn't exist. And if it did, no one in the Seer Council would be able to take it.
Um... Is this sarcasm...?
Because... Protect?
Yes.
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Post by: AlexRae
Mobility kind of gimps Centurions.
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Post by: Feasible
Plasma Cannon Devastators against CentStar?
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Post by: Martel732
Actually I was thinking about this. What about:
Tiggy
Centurion sarge w/Omniscope and TL LC/ML
Centurion w/TL LC/ML
Centurion X 2 w/Grav cannon w/ grav amp/ML
So this squad comes in around 545, and can reliably frag a WS from 48", and then, as the game progresses, can split fire with the LC cents using krak missiles and the grav cents using krak or frag as necessary. Frag missiles get better with tiggy spamming prescience.
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Post by: ace101
Martel732 wrote:Actually I was thinking about this. What about: Tiggy Centurion sarge w/Omniscope and TL LC/ ML Centurion w/ TL LC/ ML Centurion X 2 w/Grav cannon w/ grav amp/ ML So this squad comes in around 545, and can reliably frag a WS from 48", and then, as the game progresses, can split fire with the LC cents using krak missiles and the grav cents using krak or frag as necessary. Frag missiles get better with tiggy spamming prescience.
Everyone includes tigrius for prescience? With that i could just take a DA divination libby and a plas, combi- plas DA Tac squad and take a PFG: all this giving me divination, more plasma, and a 4++ for my centurions to tank the ap2 fire. Sounds cheaper than tiggy, even as good as he is.
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Post by: Ravenous D
Tiggy is more there for the rerolls on the tables for greater chance of getting the other powers like endurance and forewarning.
That and he is Ld10 with rerolling failed psychic tests. Putting him as a much better psyker then Eldrad *twitch*
The missile nipples are a complete waste as the unit can already bone any tank in the game easily and it struggles against hordes, the 3 to 6 twin linked bolter shots each is far more important then the tank overkill.
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Post by: Martel732
MLs in this case are critical for engaging and killing the dreaded WS at 48". WS can stay out of 24" range for too long in the course of the game.
Tiggy giving all those frag missiles ignore cover and prescience makes them actually kind of decent, instead of completely worthless.
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Post by: Jamo
Splifire only allows one model to engage a different target.
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Post by: Martel732
Hmm. Well then maybe only one grav cannon then.
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Post by: Senortaco
One cent with grav cannon and hurricane and two other cents with missile nips and heavy bolters
The grav cent dosnt have missile nips so in the case it gets killed, it's not a total point waste, the other 2 cents have missile nips and heavy bolters so they can focus on hide control and maybe tank hunting while the third cent split fires and focuses primarily on tank hunting
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Post by: Deadshot
Easy counters-
2 Flying Daemon Princes with Axe of Blind Fury and Black Mace respectively with whatever gubbins you feel nessecary. Ferocious numbers of attacks, with AP2 and hit on 3+ with Str 6 or 8 (9 charging for Axe).
Costs roughly the same, is hard to bring down, has no basal armour save so the Centurians are wounding on 6s. They also have Hatred Space Marines. Basically they feth them up if they get close. The BM Prince can even be kitted out with Psychic Powers to boot. Plus, they don't even have to challenge so if you want to be safe from the retaliation you can single out the Sarge or Tiggy, or lay waste to the unit with an average of 11 Str 9 attacks at Int 8, or 10 at Strength 6 with the BM Curse, all AP2. Automatically Appended Next Post: Coyote81 wrote:A vindicare assassin in a Bastion will get them all eventually, buff will effectively kill Tiggy early.
This too. If using Turbo Penetrator rounds he has approximately a 50/50 Chance of killing a Centurian a turn. The reason I say apporximately is because he has a very high chance of hitting and needs a 4+ to deal a pair of AP1 wounds to a single model with no LoS! Plus he has pinning.
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Post by: Selym
Desubot wrote:Better hope to not get that one BOOOON roll that makes your armor save better 
A Daemon Prince cannot gain boons mid-game. You can buy one roll through your list, but that's it.
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Post by: epicwalrus
I've hit a unit very similar to that, I used dark eldar trueborn with 2 splinter cannons and 7 splinter rifle paired with the duke. The 3+ to with re-rolls because of their raider, combined with their 3+ to wound killed quite a few before they destroyed the raider, but even then their dominance had been destroyed simply because of the number of saves they had to roll.
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Post by: Martel732
Deadshot wrote:Easy counters-
2 Flying Daemon Princes with Axe of Blind Fury and Black Mace respectively with whatever gubbins you feel nessecary. Ferocious numbers of attacks, with AP2 and hit on 3+ with Str 6 or 8 (9 charging for Axe).
Costs roughly the same, is hard to bring down, has no basal armour save so the Centurians are wounding on 6s. They also have Hatred Space Marines. Basically they feth them up if they get close. The BM Prince can even be kitted out with Psychic Powers to boot. Plus, they don't even have to challenge so if you want to be safe from the retaliation you can single out the Sarge or Tiggy, or lay waste to the unit with an average of 11 Str 9 attacks at Int 8, or 10 at Strength 6 with the BM Curse, all AP2.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Coyote81 wrote:A vindicare assassin in a Bastion will get them all eventually, buff will effectively kill Tiggy early.
This too. If using Turbo Penetrator rounds he has approximately a 50/50 Chance of killing a Centurian a turn. The reason I say apporximately is because he has a very high chance of hitting and needs a 4+ to deal a pair of AP1 wounds to a single model with no LoS! Plus he has pinning.
That counters the OP, but my squad has 3X TL LC and 4X MLs. Oh, and maybe some foot DC hanging around just in case.
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Post by: Exergy
Ravenous D wrote:
The missile nipples are a complete waste as the unit can already bone any tank in the game easily and it struggles against hordes, the 3 to 6 twin linked bolter shots each is far more important then the tank overkill.
The missile nipples have 48" range, the grav cannons only 24". There are a good number of tanks that can bone the cents from over 24" Automatically Appended Next Post: Selym wrote: Desubot wrote:Better hope to not get that one BOOOON roll that makes your armor save better 
A Daemon Prince cannot gain boons mid-game. You can buy one roll through your list, but that's it.
I believe there is a tzeench power that gives you boons Automatically Appended Next Post: epicwalrus wrote:I've hit a unit very similar to that, I used dark eldar trueborn with 2 splinter cannons and 7 splinter rifle paired with the duke. The 3+ to with re-rolls because of their raider, combined with their 3+ to wound killed quite a few before they destroyed the raider, but even then their dominance had been destroyed simply because of the number of saves they had to roll.
cheap venoms do a better job.
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Post by: Selym
@Exergy: Huh. So there is.
I shall amend my comment: A Daemon Prince will probably not get a boon roll mid-game.
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Post by: Chaos Rising
Hmmm, I could get 5 vendettas for the amount you are spending on those guys. Me thinks 5 flyers with 3 lascannons each is pretty good. That's 15 lascannons. That will do lots of a damage even if it doesn't wipe them.
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Post by: Selym
Chaos Rising wrote:Hmmm, I could get 5 vendettas for the amount you are spending on those guys. Me thinks 5 flyers with 3 lascannons each is pretty good. That's 15 lascannons. That will do lots of a damage even if it doesn't wipe them.
And when you're done with the centurions, you're likely to still be in good standing for taking out the rest of the army
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Post by: Ascalam
Ravagers perhaps
3 Dl shots or 9 Disintegrator shots, all AP 2, from 36'' away.
you could get 6 ravagers into a list for less than that unit, or about on par if you upgrade them.
18 DL, or 54 Dissie shots, should at least put a dent in them, and even if they down a ravager a turn (likely) they'd still take a beating.
*shrug* maybe i'll talk someone at my FLGS into running this unit, and whatever would support it, and try it against my DE to see how that works out...
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Post by: CrimsonFury
I'm amazed that 6 pages in nobody has commented on the improbability of Tigarus getting all 3 of the desired powers. Even with his re-rolls you unlikely to get more than 2, especially since one of them is on a differeant power chart (biomancy).
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Post by: Ravenous D
Well you get a roll, then a reroll then the choice to drop it to primis, its very likely you'll get the powers you want.
Worst case forget biomancy and just do 3 rolls on divination and go for forewarning and perfect timing. Prescience is guaranteed, the others are just gravy.
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Post by: juraigamer
One 240 point flying nurgle DP with balesword shuts it down like a fat guy on a slide.
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Post by: McNinja
juraigamer wrote:One 240 point flying nurgle DP with balesword shuts it down like a fat guy on a slide.
Day=made.
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Post by: easysauce
Ravenous D wrote:So this unit popped up at the store the other day and it did obscene amounts of damage to a regular tournament champion to the point where he went and bought it right after.
Its pretty simple and straight forward and not as easy to deal with as you would think.
Tigurius
6 Centurions with Grav cannons.
What this unit does:
- Re rolls hits and wounds with 30 grav cannon shots
- Optimal powers: Endurance( FNP, It will not die), Forewarning (4++), and Prescience (Re roll all to hit rolls)
- 18 or 36 twin linked bolter shots in addition to the grav guns
- Re rolls psychic tests
- Re roll reserves
First answer was "use orks" but after killing 15+ boyz consistently in test rolls, doesn't seem like an answer.
thats odd...
i just played my orks against a buddy of mine with this exact thing, at 1850, he had another squad of cents too.
tiggys 4++ really helped them, so did the ignore cover, I had 24 bikers + 2 warbosses that just evaporated...
luckily the other 100 boys made it across by turn 2 in their truks/BWagons's and proceeded to crump everything.... it was actually really funny, as one he killed all bikers, it was too late to pop the vehicles, and my grots were on objectives, being wounded on 6's!
krumpin victory!
but I could see a lot of armies hating this!
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Post by: Selym
easysauce wrote: Ravenous D wrote:So this unit popped up at the store the other day and it did obscene amounts of damage to a regular tournament champion to the point where he went and bought it right after.
Its pretty simple and straight forward and not as easy to deal with as you would think.
Tigurius
6 Centurions with Grav cannons.
What this unit does:
- Re rolls hits and wounds with 30 grav cannon shots
- Optimal powers: Endurance( FNP, It will not die), Forewarning (4++), and Prescience (Re roll all to hit rolls)
- 18 or 36 twin linked bolter shots in addition to the grav guns
- Re rolls psychic tests
- Re roll reserves
First answer was "use orks" but after killing 15+ boyz consistently in test rolls, doesn't seem like an answer.
thats odd...
i just played my orks against a buddy of mine with this exact thing, at 1850, he had another squad of cents too.
tiggys 4++ really helped them, so did the ignore cover, I had 24 bikers + 2 warbosses that just evaporated...
luckily the other 100 boys made it across by turn 2 in their truks/BWagons's and proceeded to crump everything.... it was actually really funny, as one he killed all bikers, it was too late to pop the vehicles, and my grots were on objectives, being wounded on 6's!
krumpin victory!
but I could see a lot of armies hating this!
This is the reason why it's now almost always a good idea to have cannon fodder units laying around (Grots, IG/Conscripts, Cultists etc). They make AT weapons a waste, and Gravguns will not be sufficient to win.
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Post by: necrondog99
I just fought a space marine army w/ centurians at my FLGS last night, he deployed Centurians behind an aegis line. I sent my scarab swarm and tied him up all game. Scarab swarm managed to kill two centurians, really easy after the first "entropic strike" hit. Also killed the librarian which was attached to the unit, that was fun.
- J
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Post by: Slayer le boucher
My kharn and my JuggerAxeLord, really likes Centurions of any kind.
They are specialy crunchy and offers nice skulls.
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Post by: Martel732
Presumabley, centurions should have protective units of some kind around them.
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Post by: Commander_Farsight
How about a GraVesa star? Its a mix of Grav. Cents., Tiggy (or Loth if he can be taken, he is better), O'Vesa, Farsight, Torchstar, 2-3 Riptides (1 HBCtide for sure, and then 1 more or 3 IAtides, your choice). Thats pretty much most of your army there too. Its a VERY expensive death star, but it just doesn't die. It also takes out a couple of units a turn from what I've heard. Thoughts?
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Post by: portugus
I have typhus and 210 zombies, you will quit before turn 3 :p
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Post by: Asmodai Asmodean
My gravstar can easily wipe 210 zombies in 5 turns without breaking a sweat.
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Post by: Ulcis
3 Ravagers, Night Shields & Flickerfields. Just shy of 400pts.
27 shots a turn, Str 5 AP2, so wounding on 4s with no armour save. 36" range, and can still fire all 3 guns after a 12" movement. Nightshields reduce the gravguns by 6".
Good luck hitting the Ravagers while they zip around blasting the feth outta the Centurions.
EDIT: Apologies to Ascalam, missed that post
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Post by: Talizvar
Uh, wounds based on armor save = 6's to wound?
Tossing around zombies in the air only confuses them.
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Post by: Kain
Not by rerolling sixes to wound and having FNP to worry about they won't.
As for your list; meet endlessly respawning waves of formation hormagaunts and gargoyles.
Once they get in assault the Gravstar is pretty screwed.
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Post by: Asmodai Asmodean
You forget that they also have Hurricane Bolters, a ton of attacks in close combat, and hit and run. My Gravstar can put out close to 100 wounds a turn as they shoot and charge. I've brought down fortuned Baron many times through sheer weight of dice.
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Post by: ninjafiredragon
By a ton do you mean one each? And how do you get a 100 wounds??? 30 grav shots, 30 wounds. 18 bolter wounds=48. Attacks in combat, from the charge about 13 atttacks. So that leaves close to 39 wounds for your joined characters to dish out.
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Post by: Kain
Asmodai Asmodean wrote:You forget that they also have Hurricane Bolters, a ton of attacks in close combat, and hit and run. My Gravstar can put out close to 100 wounds a turn as they shoot and charge. I've brought down fortuned Baron many times through sheer weight of dice.
You can only shoot at so many Hormie or Garg broods at a time, and as they respawn I can't care less if they get wiped.
And I'd hardly call Dev Cents competent in assault.
If pressed though I may just switch to Necrons and bring in doomscythes which can both ID the unit and strike from safety.
The Gravstar is vey powerful though, and I did forget about the Buffmander and body guns.
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Post by: Commander_Farsight
Can someone explain to me how Grav Centurions tear apart the DeerCouncil? Do the Cents have ignores cover?
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Post by: Exergy
Ulcis wrote:3 Ravagers, Night Shields & Flickerfields. Just shy of 400pts.
27 shots a turn, Str 5 AP2, so wounding on 4s with no armour save. 36" range, and can still fire all 3 guns after a 12" movement. Nightshields reduce the gravguns by 6".
Good luck hitting the Ravagers while they zip around blasting the feth outta the Centurions.
EDIT: Apologies to Ascalam, missed that post
Ulcis and Ascalam
It is really funny how DE seem to have the answer to just about every death star that people come up with, and yet cannot deal with normal lists.
I feel like that is what my pure DE have become. I put them on the table and look at my enemies army list. If he puts too many points in one basket and makes some sorts of Death start a smile. If I see a ton of meaty basic troops or vehicles I shutter.
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Post by: portugus
From their special character they can get the power that ignores cover.
No, one unit cannot kill 6 in 5 turns, your grav guns will do jack against 6+ armor like Talizvar said and they have FnP for your bolters. You'll be out of range for probably 2 turns as I just keep everything back waiting to jump on objectives. So really you'll be killing maybe 1/4 to 1/2 the squad of fearless dudes in cover starting turn 2 most likely 3, leaving a whole bunch on objectives winning the game and thus killing your star.
It would be silly to just walk at you hoping to charge. I simply sit on objectives in cover. Place objectives to either side so you have to choose which ones to go after. If it's kill points I reserve most as much as I can and pick off your non-death star stuff with lascannons and hell drakes then alternate zombie units as a shield so you get very few kill points.
My first post really was just saying you would get tired of playing against someone who has to move that much stuff every turn and quit or run out of time. All and all I think that unit belongs in a museum...and so do you. (to finish the quote)
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Post by: BlaxicanX
I would throw a single outflanking seeker squad at it, and then laugh my ass off as the Marine player starts sobbing.
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Post by: Seb
I may be wrong, but an AoBF juggerlord would single handedly kill them all in CC ?
Any fast moving CC unit would have them stuck forever, because unless I am mistaken, Centurions do not have any CC weapons and no AP ?
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Post by: ALEXisAWESOME
They do not, but how do you expect to get to CC distance before they kill you?
With your own 3+ save without doing the math i could guess that with Prescience this unit will kill your Juggerlord with just overwatch.
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Post by: sleekid
which they cannot do.
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Post by: lordra001
old zorgwort to turn tigarius into a squig, nobs in trukks/battlewagons with PKs, maybe a mek with a KFF for some cover.
Leman Russ Executioner with PC sponsons and a lascannon or two will do the trick.
Demo Vets in chimera
Mawlocs DSing under them
many many options
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Post by: Kain
lordra001 wrote:old zorgwort to turn tigarius into a squig, nobs in trukks/battlewagons with PKs, maybe a mek with a KFF for some cover.
Leman Russ Executioner with PC sponsons and a lascannon or two will do the trick.
Demo Vets in chimera
Mawlocs DSing under them
many many options
Correct me if I'm wrong, but don't Zogwort's powers flat out not work as per the RAW of the FAQ?
It's a silly FAQ that a lot of people would probably let you ignore, but it's there.
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Post by: ALEXisAWESOME
Oh, good point  Still if they decide to shoot at him he will almost definitely die, so you would need multiple threats such as Daemon Princes and Mualerfiends for target saturation.
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Post by: sleekid
Actually i will let you know my experience.
Without going as far as Tygurius + 6 Centurions (which will be very often overkill), i will face tomorrow 4 Centurions + tooled up Chapter master for tanking, coteaz and probably an inquisitor as well in there...
My own list has 3 squads of WS bikers (2 with grav) with CM, 3 DKs, a thunderfire, and Coteaz with some henchmen in reserve.
If two DKs can charge the unit then they are dead (one will likely be tanked in duel by the CM), otherwise i will have to run around the unit with my better mobilty and soften it with grav (and the barrage from CM)
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Post by: Deadshot
Is Escalation an option? 1 Shadowsword. I shoot first, game over.
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Post by: ninjafiredragon
Deadshot wrote:Is Escalation an option? 1 Shadowsword. I shoot first, game over.
Escalation is always an option  Its a matter of whether or not the opponent is open to playing against escalation.
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Post by: Exergy
ALEXisAWESOME wrote:They do not, but how do you expect to get to CC distance before they kill you?
With your own 3+ save without doing the math i could guess that with Prescience this unit will kill your Juggerlord with just overwatch.
He always runs around with a bunch of spawn and their save is not good.
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Post by: Seb
Exergy wrote: ALEXisAWESOME wrote:They do not, but how do you expect to get to CC distance before they kill you?
With your own 3+ save without doing the math i could guess that with Prescience this unit will kill your Juggerlord with just overwatch.
He always runs around with a bunch of spawn and their save is not good.
He runs around (like cavalery / beast style) so unless your deathstar is in the middle of a 24' open plain, he'll get to them. He'll duel and kill Tigurius then the sergent (or vice versa), and proceed to wipe your deathstar. Considering he and his buddies cost half your deathstar, I'd say that's something to consider. I realize you mignt no get into that king of guy every day though. (and if you're opponent is in a bad mood, he'll be infiltrated via Huron.)
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Post by: herpguy
Seb wrote:I may be wrong, but an AoBF juggerlord would single handedly kill them all in CC ?
Any fast moving CC unit would have them stuck forever, because unless I am mistaken, Centurions do not have any CC weapons and no AP ?
Not unless your opponent is using the most stupidly broken Chapter Tactic: White Scars. The juggerlord is forced to challenge and kill the chump sarge and then they proceed to hit and run and blast you to bits. I've tried it a few times...
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Post by: Daemonhammer
I would say a full Assault Squad divided into 2 parts either deep striking or just running towards them using the jump pack.
It seems like a job for fast attack units.
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Post by: dadakkaest
BlaxicanX wrote:I would throw a single outflanking seeker squad at it, and then laugh my ass off as the Marine player starts sobbing.
Usually I go for Gate of Infinity after forewarning or endurance with Tigger when running centurions. If I still don't get what I want I throw Coteaz in as well. Assuming whatever you got doesn't die to 20 AP2 overwatch shots with reroll I'll be gating out of CC and shooting/overwatching again.
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Post by: BlaxicanX
dadakkaest wrote: BlaxicanX wrote:I would throw a single outflanking seeker squad at it, and then laugh my ass off as the Marine player starts sobbing. Usually I go for Gate of Infinity after forewarning or endurance with Tigger when running centurions. If I still don't get what I want I throw Coteaz in as well. Assuming whatever you got doesn't die to 20 AP2 overwatch shots with reroll I'll be gating out of CC and shooting/overwatching again. Grav-guns will be wounding seekers on a 6. In regular shooting, your centurions will be doing 4 wounds on average to my 20xseeker blob. In overwatch, they'll be doing 1 wound. So I can basically just ignore your shooting for the entire game. Gate of Infinity will only help you for so long, because the board is only so big. With my 21'' move, you'll get maybe one round of safety from gate of infinity before you're stuck in a corner and you get assaulted. 60 WS5 rending attacks will kill 3.5 of your centurions in my fight phase alone. Even if you manage to gate of infinity away, your firepower will be cut down to a 1/3rd. So congrats, your 635 point deathstar just got neutered by a 240 point unit. EDIT- Something else to keep in mind is that gate of infinity is a blessing, you have to use it in your movement phase. So if you use gate of infinity to jump away from my seekers, they'll be out of range of your grav-guns. So Gate of Infinity away all you want. Every turn you do it is a turn that your 635 point deathstar isn't shooting at anything, while my 1200 points of other daemons is demolishing your 800 points of other marines.
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Post by: Asmodai Asmodean
None of these so called 'counters' you guys are suggesting are competitive or even real counters.
Gravstar has only one real counter, AP 1 Barrage weapons or massed Str 10 ap 1. Chapter Masters and Orbital Bombardment, Inquisitors who luck into Burner of Worlds, and even this can be mitigated with a Bastion. If FW is involved, Necron Sentry Pylons are another option as O'vesa/CM can't tank the Str 10 Ap 1 line shooting attack as it happens from anywhere.
Assault options are extremely iffy because hit and run/gate leaves you vulnerable to a heavy counterattack and risks psychotroke/rad grenades, and it is extremely unlikely you can do enough damage on the assault with O'vesa/ CM tanking wounds.
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Post by: BlaxicanX
Really? Explain to me how 80 rending hits on a 21'' moving chassis isn't "competitive"? Seekers are one of the most competitive units in the dameons codex. Gates of Infinity is useless because if you use it to run away from an assaulting unit, you'll be out of range to shoot said assaulting unit anyway. No, a single round of assault from seekers will neuter a centurion deathstar. It doesn't matter what IC's you have attached to it. Even with a shield-eternal chapter master tanking wounds, the first fight phase puts 8 wounds on the squad, killing the CM outright and one and a half centurions. You gate of infinity away at the start of your next turn, congrats, that 700 point deathstar is out of range to shoot anything, so it sits there looking dumb until I get in range to assault it again, and this time I put 12 wounds on it and murder almost the entire squad.
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Post by: Asmodai Asmodean
BlaxicanX wrote:Really?
Explain to me how 80 rending hits on a 21'' moving chassis isn't "competitive"? Seekers are one of the most competitive units in the dameons codex.
Gates of Infinity is useless because if you use it to run away from an assaulting unit, you'll be out of range to shoot said assaulting unit anyway.
No, a single round of assault from seekers will neuter a centurion deathstar. It doesn't matter what IC's you have attached to it. Even with a shield-eternal chapter master tanking wounds, the first fight phase puts 8 wounds on the squad, killing the CM outright and one and a half centurions. You gate of infinity away at the start of your next turn, congrats, that 700 point deathstar is out of range to shoot anything, so it sits there looking dumb until I get in range to assault it again, and this time I put 12 wounds on it and murder almost the entire squad.
They're so competitive not a single Daemon player coming in top 16 at any recent GT has yet to run them?
They're a grimoire sink and without which crumple like paper. They don't even have frag grenades so can't assault into cover. It does matter what ICs you have, because rolls of 2 and 5 totally screw your Seekers on the Psychotroke table, not to mention when you get assaulted (and you will, because any decent Gravstar has hit and run) you strike at I1 thanks to psyk-out grenades. Large unit footprint means not every single model will be able to strike, and low T means they are extremely vulnerable to small arms, and it is extremely unlikely your seekers will get to combat without taking casualties. 60 rending attacks at Ws 5 is less than 8 wounds against majority T5 or 6, and shockingly easy to tank with 2+, 3++, FNP and look-out-sir.
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Post by: dadakkaest
BlaxicanX wrote:[EDIT- Something else to keep in mind is that gate of infinity is a blessing, you have to use it in your movement phase. So if you use gate of infinity to jump away from my seekers, they'll be out of range of your grav-guns. So Gate of Infinity away all you want. Every turn you do it is a turn that your 635 point deathstar isn't shooting at anything, while my 1200 points of other daemons is demolishing your 800 points of other marines.
Gate of infinity is 24 inches, grav cannons are 24 inch range.
Want to know how else I know you've never played against this unit?
Seekers are lol. I've never even had them threaten my orks. Let alone my sisters/marines or knights/marines.
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Post by: BlaxicanX
Asmodai Asmodean wrote: They're so competitive not a single Daemon player coming in top 16 at any recent GT has yet to run them? They're a grimoire sink and without which crumple like paper. They don't even have frag grenades so can't assault into cover. It does matter what ICs you have, because rolls of 2 and 5 totally screw your Seekers on the Psychotroke table, not to mention when you get assaulted (and you will, because any decent Gravstar has hit and run) you strike at I1 thanks to psyk-out grenades. Large unit footprint means not every single model will be able to strike, and low T means they are extremely vulnerable to small arms, and it is extremely unlikely your seekers will get to combat without taking casualties. 60 rending attacks at Ws 5 is less than 8 wounds against majority T5 or 6, and shockingly easy to tank with 2+, 3++, FNP and look-out-sir. 8 wounds is going to kill your SE chapter master and one centurion, which is already haflway toward neutering your squad. That's frankly more than enough for a single phase of combat. Hit and run away, move 7 inches, shoot and kill, what, 4 guys on average? Get assaulted again and you lose two more guys, ad naeuseum. idk why you think T5 and AP2 is impressive against rending, nor why I should be afraid of grav-guns that'll be wounding on 6's in addition to my 5++. Even if you manage to kill off the entire squad, you won't be killing them all before losing at least 2/3rds of your centurions. So your 945 POINT deathstar (6xCenturions /w gravs, tiggy, naked CM with SE, Coteaz) has spent two to three rounds of the game killing a single 240 point unit. Yeah man, those points are really paying for themselves. dadakkaest wrote: Gate of infinity is 24 inches, grav cannons are 24 inch range. Want to know how else I know you've never played against this unit?
Right, you'll always be base-to-base with them, and you'll never scatter. Try again, Bragg.
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Post by: dadakkaest
Yeah no way I could ever see an assault coming, or put my models 15 inches away with gate and then I'd have to scatter >9 away.
You're just reaching now.
Seekers don't make it across the board anyway. So a silly point.
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Post by: BlaxicanX
If you're trying to use the gate to avoid being assaulted, then putting the squad 15 inches away is a dumb idea. Try to keep up with the discussion, friend. Seekers don't make it across the board? Do tell. What's going to kill them before they get there? Your centurions with the 24'' range who wound on 6's? The ~500 points of whatever else you have on the board that's going to be getting slammed by my 1100 points of other daemons?
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Post by: Kain
dadakkaest wrote:Yeah no way I could ever see an assault coming, or put my models 15 inches away with gate and then I'd have to scatter >9 away.
You're just reaching now.
Seekers don't make it across the board anyway. So a silly point.
She has maybe 400 points invested into seekers.
You have like 1000 points invested into a death star.
She has 1100 points of other things to throw at you while your Deathstar plays chicken with her Riders.
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Post by: dadakkaest
I'm not trying to avoid being assaulted. I'm trying to get 2 more rounds of shooting in. If you don't play the unit, it's probably just best to keep quiet about how they're played.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Kain wrote:dadakkaest wrote:Yeah no way I could ever see an assault coming, or put my models 15 inches away with gate and then I'd have to scatter >9 away.
You're just reaching now.
Seekers don't make it across the board anyway. So a silly point.
She has maybe 400 points invested into seekers.
You have like 1000 points invested into a death star.
She has 1100 points of other things to throw at you while your Deathstar plays chicken with her Riders.
Mine's around 600 all told. And my knight's going to be dropping pie plates and D strength exploding all over her face before she gets anywhere close.
Last time I played a slaneesh player I tabled them. With orks no less.
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Post by: BlaxicanX
Knights? lol. Now who's reaching. Your single 240 point seeker squad won't kill my Centurion deathstar when it has this bodyguard of knights protecting it! Yeah, no gak.
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Post by: Kain
dadakkaest wrote:I'm not trying to avoid being assaulted. I'm trying to get 2 more rounds of shooting in. If you don't play the unit, it's probably just best to keep quiet about how they're played.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Kain wrote:dadakkaest wrote:Yeah no way I could ever see an assault coming, or put my models 15 inches away with gate and then I'd have to scatter >9 away.
You're just reaching now.
Seekers don't make it across the board anyway. So a silly point.
She has maybe 400 points invested into seekers.
You have like 1000 points invested into a death star.
She has 1100 points of other things to throw at you while your Deathstar plays chicken with her Riders.
Mine's around 600 all told. And my knight's going to be dropping pie plates and D strength exploding all over her face before she gets anywhere close.
Last time I played a slaneesh player I tabled them. With orks no less.
So...1000 points before you even can get any troops.
What exactly is your plan if all your scoring units are neutralized?
This is very much putting too many eggs in too few baskets.
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Post by: dadakkaest
5 centurions with all the trimmings and tigger is 675ish. I usually run 4 and the knight. and then my troops are 5 land speeder storms full of scouts. Tigger also acts as a comms relay. Since stupid book missions don't take score until the end of the game some of them will be in reserve.
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Post by: herpguy
Seekers are not a good counter to centurions. 6s to wound sounds horrible on paper but in an actual game when there are 5 shots per, likely rerolling hits and rerolling wounds, it doesn't take much. That's not even factoring in the hurricane bolter each one has. Seekers are predictable and can be killed extremely easy by anything, not just centurions.
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Post by: Asmodai Asmodean
BlaxicanX wrote: 8 wounds is going to kill your SE chapter master and one centurion, which is already haflway toward neutering your squad. That's frankly more than enough for a single phase of combat. Hit and run away, move 7 inches, shoot and kill, what, 4 guys on average? Get assaulted again and you lose two more guys, ad naeuseum.
idk why you think T5 and AP2 is impressive against rending, nor why I should be afraid of grav-guns that'll be wounding on 6's in addition to my 5++. Even if you manage to kill off the entire squad, you won't be killing them all before losing at least 2/3rds of your centurions. So your 945 POINT deathstar (6xCenturions /w gravs, tiggy, naked CM with SE, Coteaz) has spent two to three rounds of the game killing a single 240 point unit.
Yeah man, those points are really paying for themselves.
dadakkaest wrote:
Gate of infinity is 24 inches, grav cannons are 24 inch range.
Want to know how else I know you've never played against this unit?
Right, you'll always be base-to-base with them, and you'll never scatter.
Try again, Bragg.
Sigh, if you'd read the thread at all (or any of my many tactics posts) you'd realise my Centstar is O'vesa, Tau Commander with Missile pods, vectored and Talisman, Torchstar, Loth, O'blotai, Farsight and 4 Grav centurions with allied Ordo Xenos with buff grenades, not 6 Centurions with x. 6 Centurions is horrible overkill against everything.
Also you seem to forget that Centurions have this thing called Hurricane Bolters, and 4 hurricane bolters rapid-firing into your T3 Seekers is more than enough to decimate the unit in one turn, even before anyone else in the unit shoots. If Hit and Run fails on I5, I simply no-scatter gate next to you, and wipe you in a single turn.
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Post by: ductvader
My team just faced 20 Grav Centurions at Adepticon...10 per table.
They don't die...ever...but they also cause minimal damage because they're so slow and one 1-2 units.
I have also faced them with the shield eternal or gorgon's chain biker D*ckheads...
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Post by: Ravenous D
Not to mention the Hurricane bolters they have. 18 shots at 24" (30" threat range) along with the grav cannons is 12 dead seekers.
People here are underestimating the unit extremely. It only adds to the credence that the internet is full of people that have no clue what they are talking about.
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Post by: Commander_Farsight
How do you guys feel about a GraVesastar? I'd love thoughts on my 2K list for a tournament. Here is the list:
I took down a Riptide so its three now, it allowed me to add one more Grav Centurion and 4 more troop choices. I was light before with only 3. Thoughts?
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Post by: herpguy
Ravenous D wrote:Not to mention the Hurricane bolters they have. 18 shots at 24" (30" threat range) along with the grav cannons is 12 dead seekers.
People here are underestimating the unit extremely. It only adds to the credence that the internet is full of people that have no clue what they are talking about.
I can't agree with you more. I thought they were a slow, dumb, easily managed unit until I actually played against them, and realized they are probably the scariest shooting units in the game, and I usually have next to no armor saves at all in my lists. There is no other unit in the game that has close to the amount of shots that they put out. They would still be good if they didn't have hurricane bolters, but those are just an extra slap in the face.
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Post by: Ravenous D
ductvader wrote:My team just faced 20 Grav Centurions at Adepticon...10 per table.
They don't die...ever...but they also cause minimal damage because they're so slow and one 1-2 units.
I have also faced them with the shield eternal or gorgon's chain biker D*ckheads...
Here's the list at my local GW that just makes you want to hate the game:
Buffmander
3 target lock broadsides with 2 missile drones each
10 kroot
Riptide w/ ewo, ion
Tiggy
6 cents, sgt w/omniscope
3x5 scouts
7 scouts
3 land speeder storms
2 thunderfire cannons.
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Post by: Kain
herpguy wrote:Seekers are not a good counter to centurions. 6s to wound sounds horrible on paper but in an actual game when there are 5 shots per, likely rerolling hits and rerolling wounds, it doesn't take much. That's not even factoring in the hurricane bolter each one has. Seekers are predictable and can be killed extremely easy by anything, not just centurions.
Hence why I suggested Doomscythes or Necron Sentry Pylons.
A good dumping of S10 hits should ID enough of the people in the death star to rustle their jimmies.
Or you could be a jerk and take the Screamer-star and load up on Etherblades to get chopping.
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Post by: Asmodai Asmodean
Kain wrote: herpguy wrote:Seekers are not a good counter to centurions. 6s to wound sounds horrible on paper but in an actual game when there are 5 shots per, likely rerolling hits and rerolling wounds, it doesn't take much. That's not even factoring in the hurricane bolter each one has. Seekers are predictable and can be killed extremely easy by anything, not just centurions.
Hence why I suggested Doomscythes or Necron Sentry Pylons.
A good dumping of S10 hits should ID enough of the people in the death star to rustle their jimmies.
Or you could be a jerk and take the Screamer-star and load up on Etherblades to get chopping.
Screamerstar doesn't put out enough AP2 to do significant damage to the grav-star in close combat. Heralds are like WS 3 and STR 3 with 3 attacks each...
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Post by: Ravenous D
herpguy wrote: Ravenous D wrote:Not to mention the Hurricane bolters they have. 18 shots at 24" (30" threat range) along with the grav cannons is 12 dead seekers.
People here are underestimating the unit extremely. It only adds to the credence that the internet is full of people that have no clue what they are talking about.
I can't agree with you more. I thought they were a slow, dumb, easily managed unit until I actually played against them, and realized they are probably the scariest shooting units in the game, and I usually have next to no armor saves at all in my lists. There is no other unit in the game that has close to the amount of shots that they put out. They would still be good if they didn't have hurricane bolters, but those are just an extra slap in the face.
Exactly "Just assault them" is all well and good until you realize that at 18" they dump out 36 twin linked bolter shots (on average you lose half a marine squad/16 orks/22 guardsmen to that alone) and 30 rerolling hits and wounds grav cannons. It deletes units, and with omniscope has the ability to spilt fire.
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Post by: Asmodai Asmodean
Asmodai Asmodean wrote: Kain wrote: herpguy wrote:Seekers are not a good counter to centurions. 6s to wound sounds horrible on paper but in an actual game when there are 5 shots per, likely rerolling hits and rerolling wounds, it doesn't take much. That's not even factoring in the hurricane bolter each one has. Seekers are predictable and can be killed extremely easy by anything, not just centurions.
Hence why I suggested Doomscythes or Necron Sentry Pylons.
A good dumping of S10 hits should ID enough of the people in the death star to rustle their jimmies.
Or you could be a jerk and take the Screamer-star and load up on Etherblades to get chopping.
Screamerstar doesn't put out enough AP2 to do significant damage to the grav-star in close combat. Heralds are like WS 3 and STR 3 with 3 attacks each...
Also, Doom Scythes can be predicted. Necron Sentry Pylons teleporting with Obyron though, are pretty scary to my grav star. It usually boils down to who gets first turn though.
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Post by: Seb
herpguy wrote: Seb wrote:I may be wrong, but an AoBF juggerlord would single handedly kill them all in CC ?
Any fast moving CC unit would have them stuck forever, because unless I am mistaken, Centurions do not have any CC weapons and no AP ?
Not unless your opponent is using the most stupidly broken Chapter Tactic: White Scars. The juggerlord is forced to challenge and kill the chump sarge and then they proceed to hit and run and blast you to bits. I've tried it a few times...
Hence the spawns - I don't see Centurions putting a lot of wounds on them. And you run faster. Main problem I see is avoiding supporting units fire.
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Post by: ALEXisAWESOME
How would a nice and big Beast Star work against them? There is hardly an armor save worth mentioning all the while 4++ (possibly fortuned or Invisible'd) keep it safe-ish from the Bolters. Other then that they simply put a LOT of attacks (with re-rolls from prescience) onto you (some rending) at an high Initiative while being extremely fast. How much damage would the Centstar do to them and could the Beaststar shrug it off and just go for the rest of the army anyhow?
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Post by: herpguy
Chaos spawn go down surprisingly fast to centurions. I always run my chaos lords with them but centurions don't let them last too long. Automatically Appended Next Post: Commander_Farsight wrote:How do you guys feel about a GraVesastar? I'd love thoughts on my 2K list for a tournament. Here is the list:
I took down a Riptide so its three now, it allowed me to add one more Grav Centurion and 4 more troop choices. I was light before with only 3. Thoughts?
If somebody plopped down this list across the table from me I would probably advise them to get some self esteem coaching.
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Post by: Kain
Asmodai Asmodean wrote: Kain wrote: herpguy wrote:Seekers are not a good counter to centurions. 6s to wound sounds horrible on paper but in an actual game when there are 5 shots per, likely rerolling hits and rerolling wounds, it doesn't take much. That's not even factoring in the hurricane bolter each one has. Seekers are predictable and can be killed extremely easy by anything, not just centurions.
Hence why I suggested Doomscythes or Necron Sentry Pylons.
A good dumping of S10 hits should ID enough of the people in the death star to rustle their jimmies.
Or you could be a jerk and take the Screamer-star and load up on Etherblades to get chopping.
Screamerstar doesn't put out enough AP2 to do significant damage to the grav-star in close combat. Heralds are like WS 3 and STR 3 with 3 attacks each...
It's an impasse, though one that favors me somewhat in a shooting or assault match.
Also greater etherblades give out +1 Strength and master-crafted to get that one hit in, and each screamer can put out 2 bites to penetrate that armor.
The knights are a bit tricky to handle with Daemons to be sure, but in a higher points game I find that there's little they can do to stop a flying circus of Daemons of Tzeentch/Nurgle and Lords of Change (in a dual FOC game) from carving them apart in the sky.
The other Daemons can just hide in cover or deep strike where they are needed.
Or I could summon forth the Uber-Prince/ LOC with 1d4chan wrote:First you need the Grimoire, secondly you need your princes to be ML3 and roll up Forewarning for a 4++, giving you a 2++ rerollable, then you need either a greater etherblade or an eternal blade and you must roll up Iron Arm, if you get warp speed or endurance too, that's just gravy. Now you have a model that can beat Horus in a one on one dust up without a scratch on it.
A bit chancy and rare, but I've yet to find anything in 40k that can reliably take one on in assault and have any chance (save for Zarakynel who ignores invuls in Assault and can strike first), even Knights and Titans usually get smashed open before they can swing.
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Post by: Commander_Farsight
herpguy wrote:Chaos spawn go down surprisingly fast to centurions. I always run my chaos lords with them but centurions don't let them last too long.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Commander_Farsight wrote:How do you guys feel about a GraVesastar? I'd love thoughts on my 2K list for a tournament. Here is the list:
I took down a Riptide so its three now, it allowed me to add one more Grav Centurion and 4 more troop choices. I was light before with only 3. Thoughts?
If somebody plopped down this list across the table from me I would probably advise them to get some self esteem coaching.
What are you trying to say here?!
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Post by: herpguy
That that is probably the cheesiest of the cheese. 3 riptides? 5 grav centurions? Loth??? I can't imagine that you had 4 riptides in there originally...
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Post by: ALEXisAWESOME
I know! How about a twin Pulsar Reverent Titian with Vect for first turn and guide for re-rolls? Cause you know, getting saves is so overrated...
50832
Post by: Sigvatr
Transcendant C'tan.
69848
Post by: ninjafiredragon
Asmodai Asmodean wrote: BlaxicanX wrote: 8 wounds is going to kill your SE chapter master and one centurion, which is already haflway toward neutering your squad. That's frankly more than enough for a single phase of combat. Hit and run away, move 7 inches, shoot and kill, what, 4 guys on average? Get assaulted again and you lose two more guys, ad naeuseum.
idk why you think T5 and AP2 is impressive against rending, nor why I should be afraid of grav-guns that'll be wounding on 6's in addition to my 5++. Even if you manage to kill off the entire squad, you won't be killing them all before losing at least 2/3rds of your centurions. So your 945 POINT deathstar (6xCenturions /w gravs, tiggy, naked CM with SE, Coteaz) has spent two to three rounds of the game killing a single 240 point unit.
Yeah man, those points are really paying for themselves.
dadakkaest wrote:
Gate of infinity is 24 inches, grav cannons are 24 inch range.
Want to know how else I know you've never played against this unit?
Right, you'll always be base-to-base with them, and you'll never scatter.
Try again, Bragg.
Sigh, if you'd read the thread at all (or any of my many tactics posts) you'd realise my Centstar is O'vesa, Tau Commander with Missile pods, vectored and Talisman, Torchstar, Loth, O'blotai, Farsight and 4 Grav centurions with allied Ordo Xenos with buff grenades, not 6 Centurions with x. 6 Centurions is horrible overkill against everything.
Also you seem to forget that Centurions have this thing called Hurricane Bolters, and 4 hurricane bolters rapid-firing into your T3 Seekers is more than enough to decimate the unit in one turn, even before anyone else in the unit shoots. If Hit and Run fails on I5, I simply no-scatter gate next to you, and wipe you in a single turn.
Seams like one nasty centstar...but  how many points is that???
61964
Post by: Fragile
Grav star is nasty. The key is getting dedicated CC units onto it in the way that you want.
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Post by: ductvader
Ravenous D wrote: herpguy wrote: Ravenous D wrote:Not to mention the Hurricane bolters they have. 18 shots at 24" (30" threat range) along with the grav cannons is 12 dead seekers.
People here are underestimating the unit extremely. It only adds to the credence that the internet is full of people that have no clue what they are talking about.
I can't agree with you more. I thought they were a slow, dumb, easily managed unit until I actually played against them, and realized they are probably the scariest shooting units in the game, and I usually have next to no armor saves at all in my lists. There is no other unit in the game that has close to the amount of shots that they put out. They would still be good if they didn't have hurricane bolters, but those are just an extra slap in the face.
Exactly "Just assault them" is all well and good until you realize that at 18" they dump out 36 twin linked bolter shots (on average you lose half a marine squad/16 orks/22 guardsmen to that alone) and 30 rerolling hits and wounds grav cannons. It deletes units, and with omniscope has the ability to spilt fire.
Tyranids can do this better then with access to catalyst and Venomthropes. I often have a 3+ cover and FnP rocking on a squad of 30.
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Post by: sleekid
But they will likely ignore cover...
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Post by: Asmodai Asmodean
ALEXisAWESOME wrote:I know! How about a twin Pulsar Reverent Titian with Vect for first turn and guide for re-rolls? Cause you know, getting saves is so overrated...
You can have fun playing with the three other people who showed up for the Escalation event. Who were the top 16 at Adepticon? Oh wait, 16 people didn't even show up.
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Post by: some bloke
for 700 odd points we orks can get about, ooh, 5 trukks with boys & powerklaw nobs? it'll take us 1 turn to get close enough to assault with all 5, or just 3 if the centurions have shot already to maximum effect (killed 2 trukks, oh no how will I win with 70 points missing!?), then the centurions will kill 2 more trukks, as split fire still fires at the same time so they can't pop a trukk then blast away the contents with the rest of the unit. then 3 trukkmobs charge in and wreck 'em.
are they fearless? if not then just the trukks will do the job. I've won games by turning around and tankshokking units with the trukks to make 'em run. a fine example was a killpoints game where my tau opponent had a full unit of firewarriors and an ethereal at the back of the board. he made his first two leadership tests, but the third trukk got rid of 'em.
also I read on an early page someone said a KFF would save 'em - gravguns don't give saves, as they don't cause glancing/penetrating hits.
One thing that would really do 'em in would be the malediction that causes all their weapons to "get hot", think it's a nurgle power.
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Post by: Asmodai Asmodean
some bloke wrote:for 700 odd points we orks can get about, ooh, 5 trukks with boys & powerklaw nobs? it'll take us 1 turn to get close enough to assault with all 5, or just 3 if the centurions have shot already to maximum effect (killed 2 trukks, oh no how will I win with 70 points missing!?), then the centurions will kill 2 more trukks, as split fire still fires at the same time so they can't pop a trukk then blast away the contents with the rest of the unit. then 3 trukkmobs charge in and wreck 'em.
are they fearless? if not then just the trukks will do the job. I've won games by turning around and tankshokking units with the trukks to make 'em run. a fine example was a killpoints game where my tau opponent had a full unit of firewarriors and an ethereal at the back of the board. he made his first two leadership tests, but the third trukk got rid of 'em.
also I read on an early page someone said a KFF would save 'em - gravguns don't give saves, as they don't cause glancing/penetrating hits.
One thing that would really do 'em in would be the malediction that causes all their weapons to "get hot", think it's a nurgle power.
Lol, Orks. I can easily destroy 2000 points of Orks without taking a single casualty.
You're thinking of neurosystems web jammer, it's a Tau signature system. And yes, my deathstar has it too.
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Post by: extremefreak17
This list makes me want to take the Harlequins off the shelf!
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Post by: Gomericus
to the OP
If I saw such a massive points sink in one unit,I would point my rough riders at it,charge it and laugh,then flatten anything left with basilisk rounds,while the rest of my army wiped what ever small army was on the board with it out with massed lasgun and lascannon volleys.
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Post by: ALEXisAWESOME
Asmodai Asmodean wrote: ALEXisAWESOME wrote:I know! How about a twin Pulsar Reverent Titian with Vect for first turn and guide for re-rolls? Cause you know, getting saves is so overrated...
You can have fun playing with the three other people who showed up for the Escalation event. Who were the top 16 at Adepticon? Oh wait, 16 people didn't even show up.
In the OP it said nothing about not allowing Escalation, like it or not they are part of the rules now, and it is not unreasonable for someone to assume they are included in a tournament unless you specify otherwise. You asked for a unit that could kill it, i responded.
Alternatively, how would this list do against an best case scenario Beaststar? Best case includes both Fortune, Prescience and Invisibility (not likely to get all of these) on a Shardseer with Spirit Stones. They have a good save against the Bolter Shots, they are wounded on 6's by Grav Cannons and have a good deny with the Farseer and Fortune. Now it's very likely these would have trouble with your deathstar due to Loth's Gate of Infinity but could this unit tank your fire power and make it to the juicy stuff behind the deathstar? Seems like a cheap and powerful unit that is quite resilient to your fire power.
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Post by: BaconSarnie
Blood Angels - Land Raider Crusader filled with Death Co. with Reclusiarch. Dont need power weapons in there just basic chainswords and bolt pistols. No overwatch from the cents and very little in the way of combat from them either problem solved.
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Post by: dadakkaest
Gomericus wrote:to the OP
If I saw such a massive points sink in one unit,I would point my rough riders at it,charge it and laugh,then flatten anything left with basilisk rounds,while the rest of my army wiped what ever small army was on the board with it out with massed lasgun and lascannon volleys.
Another one who has never played against or as this unit. Earthshakers are AP3 and Str 9 large blast so they still get a 2+ and 5+ Fnp. You'd be extremely lucky to be 1 wound with a blast weapon that doesn't defeat armor on 2+ units with 50mm bases. Rough riders are going to get murdered by hurricane bolter/grav amp fire followed by twin linked hurricane bolter overwatch. Guard blobs aren't going to make it to FRFSRF or even rapid fire range. Especially since this unit is likely to be backed up by at least one thunderfire cannon.
When did Dakka become a home for people who don't even 40k, bro?
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Post by: Asmodai Asmodean
dadakkaest wrote:Gomericus wrote:to the OP
If I saw such a massive points sink in one unit,I would point my rough riders at it,charge it and laugh,then flatten anything left with basilisk rounds,while the rest of my army wiped what ever small army was on the board with it out with massed lasgun and lascannon volleys.
Another one who has never played against or as this unit. Earthshakers are AP3 and Str 9 large blast so they still get a 2+ and 5+ Fnp. You'd be extremely lucky to be 1 wound with a blast weapon that doesn't defeat armor on 2+ units with 50mm bases. Rough riders are going to get murdered by hurricane bolter/grav amp fire followed by twin linked hurricane bolter overwatch. Guard blobs aren't going to make it to FRFSRF or even rapid fire range. Especially since this unit is likely to be backed up by at least one thunderfire cannon.
When did Dakka become a home for people who don't even 40k, bro?
Well, it's the Tactics forum, not Tournaments...
Gravstar can't overwatch sadly, it's S&P, one of its drawbacks. Their overwatch fire would be brutal and no one would ever get an assault off outside of 8".
Beaststar with Fortune (Invisibility doesn't work, ignore cover...) isn't invulnerable. You can reliably put >36 wounds on Baron every turn if he tries to tank and 4+ rerollable on Khymera is very killable.
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Post by: ALEXisAWESOME
What is causing that many wounds? 36 Bolters in with re-rolls is 32 hits, 20ish wounds. Grav Cannon's 30 shots with re-rolls to hit get 27ish hits, 4.5 wound on 6's first time and 3.5 second time so 7 wounds by them. Sure 27 wounds seems like a lot but on the Khymerae that's only 7 dead from a possibly unit of 25. And if your in rapid fire range you are very easily in charge range. Be aware this is me using the Grav Star in the OP, not the Farsight one you suggested a bit earlier. If you post that again i will take that one into consideration as well, although in game i am likely to try ignore it due to GOI.
4+ re-rollable is very similar statistically to a 3++, and no one ever calls that ''very killable'', otherwise Wraiths would like a word with you  Against the OP's Centstar it seems a Beastpack is just what the Doctor Ordered.
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Post by: Gomericus
Ummm not to start an arguement or anything.but again,,,,its not about killing something out right but causing dice rolls,the more you roll,the more you are going to fail
and reread what I wrote,I never said lasguns would take them on,but the other parts of his force,
The op ask to kill his deathstar unit,and I would,sure I might loose a 90pt unit off the bat but the other two rr units would murder them in turn.so in the end I might loose all three units but so what,,and ,thats the problem with deathstar units,,,,,I might loose somewheres around 1/5 my total army but the other guy looses almost half,,,
Leaving me 4/5ths of my firepower to eliminate the other 1/2 of his force,
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