Someone told me at the GW store in thUK (Croydon, in South London)
he plays at, in order to play now, you have to hand over a voucher that you get for spending 15pounds there.
Is this true or BS? Anyone else hear of this policy?????
Also if that is the case they are slowed. People playing games there is free advertising for the game. Gets people interested. People are already changing games due to the high cost. If you are expected to buy a new model or two every time you play people will either leave at an even faster rate.
So the new trend for General Discussion is to make up a false premise or bullcrap idea about GW, then people have this week's reason to revisit the "Airing of Grievances"...
Can you refute or validate this rumor? My source is someone who plays there and has posted. I'd prefer not to out his name for privacy reasons. Otherwise then, back off.
Is this true or BS? Anyone else hear of this policy???
So the new trend for General Discussion is to make up a false premise or bullcrap idea about GW, then people have this week's reason to revisit the "Airing of Grievances"...
Thanks for coming out, Nkelsch. I think your bitterness about bitterness is diverting your ability to focus.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Also, OT, I have not heard of such. Then again GW Japan is its own animal.
jonolikespie wrote: That is so bloody dumb I actually believe GW would do it...
Oh sure, it's dumb when GW does it but when independents charge for table space it's just business sense...
In regards to the OP? It's not a corporate policy, but managers seem to have leeway in regards to doing things like this. The GW shop in question might have a community where there are people who are very vocal about how they buy only from online stores while playing at the shop.
jonolikespie wrote: That is so bloody dumb I actually believe GW would do it...
Oh sure, it's dumb when GW does it but when independents charge for table space it's just business sense...
I've never once said that. This is not some double standard just because I dislike GW, if my FLGS tied charging me I'd most likely stop playing there and even if I didn't I'd no longer feel obligated to buy there over online discounters.
Looking at the Croyden store's Facebook page... I do not see mention of needing a 15 quid receipt - but I do see that the store manager left last week.
With no other evidence, I would be inclined to discount it as rumor, or possibly an 'I want these people out of my store' ploy by an unhappy manager stand-in.
Can you refute or validate this rumor? My source is someone who plays there and has posted. I'd prefer not to out his name for privacy reasons. Otherwise then, back off.
Can you refute or validate a rumor that I start that you are a mass murderer?
Can you refute or validate a rumor I start that landraiders do actually explode and injure people if you roll three 6s on three pens?
This is the internet, of course they cannot refute or validate when everything is anonymous, but the whole "my friend who I won't name" holds absolutely no water. Logic is your friend, use it, but until then this is an unfounded rumor, ESPECIALLY since YOU are asking others for feedback on it.
Can you refute or validate this rumor? My source is someone who plays there and has posted. I'd prefer not to out his name for privacy reasons. Otherwise then, back off.
If you'll say who he is, I'll be quite comfortable to call him a liar to his face.
Can you refute or validate this rumor? My source is someone who plays there and has posted. I'd prefer not to out his name for privacy reasons. Otherwise then, back off.
If you'll say who he is, I'll be quite comfortable to call him a liar to his face.
Can you refute or validate this rumor? My source is someone who plays there and has posted.
Refute? Easily. UK posters are not an endangered species - if this was an actual thing that was happening, you think they'd be this quiet, that this wouldn't be something people everywhere would be furious about?
If this was something your friend actually encountered, he could speak for himself.
Can you refute or validate this rumor? My source is someone who plays there and has posted. I'd prefer not to out his name for privacy reasons. Otherwise then, back off.
If you'll say who he is, I'll be quite comfortable to call him a liar to his face.
What exactly would you do then, say, 'Hey Hobbs, I don't think you're friend's a liar, I just think he's full of gak?'
Kanluwen wrote: Oh sure, it's dumb when GW does it but when independents charge for table space it's just business sense...
It's dumb when GW does it because GW stores are not individual businesses, they're a branch of the company dedicated to providing easy local sales and a place to play (and therefore encouraging people to buy the game). It makes no sense for GW to charge for table space because no matter who you buy GW products from GW is still making a profit. It's potentially good business sense for an independent store to charge for tables because they need income to that store specifically if they want to survive, and they can potentially provide a much better gaming experience that justifies charging for table space.
The GW shop in question might have a community where there are people who are very vocal about how they buy only from online stores while playing at the shop.
So what? If you buy online you still give your money to GW. Don't make the same idiotic mistake that GW does and think that each individual retail store is its own business that needs to do everything it can to keep sales in that one store.
A quick check of the store's facebook page shows that a new manager has just started and he mentions "booking games" as an existing process.
I'd guess that this booking process (which makes sense given the limited table space) may have been the kernel of this "pay to play" and/or that the previous manager would hand out a "this entitles you to one game" voucher sort of thing when somebody buys something to encourage them to build it, paint it and play it.
As for "pay to play", not a UK wide policy I've ever seen or heard of.
Wouldn't this tie in with that token thing that some stores were supposedly starting up, where spending $x got you a token which you could use for table time or tuition or something?
I wouldn't be at all surprised if it was a new initiative, whether or not it'll be axed before it starts is something I can't guess at though.
Before I moved up north GW Maidstone had something similar, if you spent a certain amount in store you got little coupons that gave you the right to spend on various things, occasionally in rafffles in the store and stuff but also could be used to pay for games at their local gaming club. It didnt limit the gaming in the store via coupons but encouraged people who bought stuff in store to attend the club.
Melcavuk wrote: Before I moved up north GW Maidstone had something similar, if you spent a certain amount in store you got little coupons that gave you the right to spend on various things, occasionally in rafffles in the store and stuff but also could be used to pay for games at their local gaming club. It didnt limit the gaming in the store via coupons but encouraged people who bought stuff in store to attend the club.
This.
Tickets let you participate in raffle, challenge Store Manager etc... No one will ask you to pay to play.
There was a recent change in management (it is a new Managers first week in GW Croydon) and he is just updating table booking schedule. That's it IMO.
Kroothawk wrote: So there are GW stores left that allow in store gaming?
Are there any that don't?
I think we had one comment re Derby not allowing games, but then somebody popped up and said they'd had a game there recently. I know you keep a close eye on this, I thought you'd be more abreast of the news, Kroot!
I'm just shocked that none of the UK-based Dakkaites seem to have a working telephone and are therefore unable to confirm or deny something simple like this.
I'm more shocked that people actually choose to game in GW stores.
I can't speak for everyone, obviously, but most of the GW stores I have been into here in the UK are shoebox sized and with tiny tables. Now, my gaming room at home is hardly massive but I can at least fit a 6x4 board in it. My local GW has two small 2x3 or thereabouts boards as well as the obligatory hordes of screaming pre-teens and obnoxious adults crammed into a minuscule store front. Not my idea of gaming nirvana.
I imagine the locations are more about what kind of storefronts you can get for minimal rent than simply choosing the smallest available. When my local GW moved from the shopping mall in the next suburb over to just far enough away to be too far to bother with (I used to get my WDs there, and occasional paints) they did the whole downgrade from multiple staff to 1-man band manager, but the store size actually increased - looked like about double the space the one time I went there...
filbert wrote: I... the obligatory hordes of screaming pre-teens and obnoxious adults c
Ah, Hell is other gamers. Very Jean-Paul Sartre.
Well, there is a kernel of truth there. I have yet to go into a GW store and not wanted to be in and out with my purchases inside of 5 minutes. I can't say whether the same holds true for all gaming stores since I haven't been into an indie store in the UK.
I don't say this out of exasperation as I believe there was a thread on this earlier this year with someone else having a similar encounter, in that they received tokens to use on things like using the painting table or gaming.
Sooo.... I suspect there is a kernel of truth to this, but whomever told the OP may have their wires crossed.
Kanluwen wrote: Oh sure, it's dumb when GW does it but when independents charge for table space it's just business sense...
It's dumb when GW does it because GW stores are not individual businesses, they're a branch of the company dedicated to providing easy local sales and a place to play (and therefore encouraging people to buy the game). It makes no sense for GW to charge for table space because no matter who you buy GW products from GW is still making a profit. It's potentially good business sense for an independent store to charge for tables because they need income to that store specifically if they want to survive, and they can potentially provide a much better gaming experience that justifies charging for table space.
The GW shop in question might have a community where there are people who are very vocal about how they buy only from online stores while playing at the shop.
So what? If you buy online you still give your money to GW. Don't make the same idiotic mistake that GW does and think that each individual retail store is its own business that needs to do everything it can to keep sales in that one store.
Precisely this. The only rational purpose for GW stores to exist, even at a loss, is to have a high street presence and serve as a marketing tool. It would be like getting charged 25 cents for a sample at the grocery store.
Kanluwen wrote: Oh sure, it's dumb when GW does it but when independents charge for table space it's just business sense...
It's dumb when GW does it because GW stores are not individual businesses, they're a branch of the company dedicated to providing easy local sales and a place to play (and therefore encouraging people to buy the game). It makes no sense for GW to charge for table space because no matter who you buy GW products from GW is still making a profit. It's potentially good business sense for an independent store to charge for tables because they need income to that store specifically if they want to survive, and they can potentially provide a much better gaming experience that justifies charging for table space.
The GW shop in question might have a community where there are people who are very vocal about how they buy only from online stores while playing at the shop.
So what? If you buy online you still give your money to GW. Don't make the same idiotic mistake that GW does and think that each individual retail store is its own business that needs to do everything it can to keep sales in that one store.
Each individual retail store is not its own business, but the sales figures (and potentially the behavior of the community) for a GW shop will drive how the employees are going to manage the shop within the guidelines set by GW corporate.
Because the employees are working on what amounts to a modified commission paycheck, their pay and how much leeway they are given to run their shop is based upon the sales figures of the shop.
And as a bit of a fun fact?
Purchases made in the store(including gift cards) and Direct only purchases made in the store for pick-up in the store count towards the store sales figures, but orders made via the GW website at home for pick up at the store do not count.
I wonder if GW have a regional system for dividing online orders in the UK. For example, depending on your postcode, the amount of money you spend online is attributed to a certain region. If they have a store in that region it gets a bit of the credit, deserved or otherwise. This is how it works in the Department Store i work in.
Precisely this. The only rational purpose for GW stores to exist, even at a loss, is to have a high street presence and serve as a marketing tool. It would be like getting charged 25 cents for a sample at the grocery store.
There are limits as to how many "free samples" you can get at the grocery store, are there not?
I do agree that GW stores should be serving as more of a marketing tool but I don't think that means they should not be allowed to tie gaming space to purchases made in store. I do not think having something where you spend 15GBP(which is around 25 USD) at the shop for a voucher or some kind of token or whatever that lets you book up a table is unfair or excessive.
If it's not clear at this point, I popped in after reading this, and it sort of isn't true. Apparently it was going to be the case, but now it's just a simple give them a call to book/book a table in store system, with no vouchers/spending necessary.
Everyone can blame Japan for the 1 man stores. They were initially popular over there and made a ton of money, so they decided to try them everywhere.....
OK all - Croydon is my local store - I think the OP has this confused with Heroes and Legends - our local non GW gaming store - which is AWESOME btw.
They've just started charging monies. 2.50 for a three hour slot per person, which aint bad really. Unlike GW you can use bathrooms, make tea and eat in their and generally have 3-5 big tables to choose from.
It has lost a few people to this but still good value for my 2 cents.. or is that pennies?
Everyone can blame Japan for the 1 man stores. They were initially popular over there and made a ton of money, so they decided to try them everywhere.....
I blame Japan for the worst hang-over ever. Stupid saki... That gak sneaks up on you.
ellis_esquire wrote: OK all - Croydon is my local store - I think the OP has this confused with Heroes and Legends - our local non GW gaming store - which is AWESOME btw.
They've just started charging monies. 2.50 for a three hour slot per person, which aint bad really. Unlike GW you can use bathrooms, make tea and eat in their and generally have 3-5 big tables to choose from.
It has lost a few people to this but still good value for my 2 cents.. or is that pennies?
That sounds like a sweet deal, anybody turning that down seems to have reacted a little harshly. Cheers for the clarification.
ellis_esquire wrote: OK all - Croydon is my local store - I think the OP has this confused with Heroes and Legends - our local non GW gaming store - which is AWESOME btw.
They've just started charging monies. 2.50 for a three hour slot per person, which aint bad really. Unlike GW you can use bathrooms, make tea and eat in their and generally have 3-5 big tables to choose from.
It has lost a few people to this but still good value for my 2 cents.. or is that pennies?
That sounds like a sweet deal, anybody turning that down seems to have reacted a little harshly. Cheers for the clarification.
It has probably lost the few people the owner explicitly intended to lose with such a policy, usually non-customers monopolizing space from real customers. I consider pay to play perfectly reasonable.
But of course, when a FLGS does it, it is reasonable, and when GW does it, it is a sign of the Apocalypse and resulting in the murder of babies.
It has probably lost the few people the owner explicitly intended to lose with such a policy, usually non-customers monopolizing space from real customers. I consider pay to play perfectly reasonable.
True dat!
They probably also had neck-beards, smelled bad, and would follow customer around the store giving free advice like "You're buying terminators? They suck and you're a bad player!"
ellis_esquire wrote: OK all - Croydon is my local store - I think the OP has this confused with Heroes and Legends - our local non GW gaming store - which is AWESOME btw.
They've just started charging monies. 2.50 for a three hour slot per person, which aint bad really. Unlike GW you can use bathrooms, make tea and eat in their and generally have 3-5 big tables to choose from.
It has lost a few people to this but still good value for my 2 cents.. or is that pennies?
That sounds like a sweet deal, anybody turning that down seems to have reacted a little harshly. Cheers for the clarification.
It has probably lost the few people the owner explicitly intended to lose with such a policy, usually non-customers monopolizing space from real customers. I consider pay to play perfectly reasonable.
But of course, when a FLGS does it, it is reasonable, and when GW does it, it is a sign of the Apocalypse and resulting in the murder of babies.
All that the FLGSs that have tried it around here managed, was to loose customers and subsequently go bankrupt, so no, I don't think that it is reasonable when an FLGS does it as well.
Table space in a store should be considered as advertisement for their products and as community building "helpers". If you have a community of loyal people that plays at your store, chances are that they will also buy at your store. Sure, you'll always have the 1 or 2 free loaders that only buy online and basically use the tables "for free", but it makes much more business sense to endure these 1 or 2 people than to risk alienating all your other customers by charging them a fee to use the store tables.
But of course, when a FLGS does it, it is reasonable, and when GW does it, it is a sign of the Apocalypse and resulting in the murder of babies.
Do we need to repeat what Peregrine posted? Did you even read it?
I read it and I don't agree with it. It's predicated upon the notion that goodGW employees are interchangeable.
We see complaints when someone's local GW undergoes a change of management and they've lost their "favorite manager ever", but then it comes out that they liked the manager because the manager was essentially a doormat for the community.
All that the FLGSs that have tried it around here managed, was to loose customers and subsequently go bankrupt, so no, I don't think that it is reasonable when an FLGS does it as well.
Table space in a store should be considered as advertisement for their products and as community building "helpers". If you have a community of loyal people that plays at your store, chances are that they will also buy at your store. Sure, you'll always have the 1 or 2 free loaders that only buy online and basically use the tables "for free", but it makes much more business sense to endure these 1 or 2 people than to risk alienating all your other customers by charging them a fee to use the store tables.
I have seen the opposite, I have seen loudmouth freeloaders drive entire customer bases away, and the result is usually a removal of open gaming 100% from the store and a total transition to Magic or YuGiOh. If you attempt to tolerate the freeloaders and unpleasant people who buy nothing in your store and often campaign for online sales vs your store, then having them around is a drain on your store. if they come for the 'free gaming' then 'free gaming' is a negative now. Sometimes it is fine to purge non-customers who are ruining your establishment.
Sadly it usually results in gaming being removed or banished to 'tuesday night' because one or two freeloading loudmouths have to ruin it for all. If squeezing a small amount of money out of those guys makes them evaporate, then it is worth every penny. Considering the number of freeloaders on Dakka who don't pay where they play but then in turn demand free gaming... I believe more and more in this policy with every passing day.
And I have seen Peregrin's comment, I disagree with its premise. In stores where tablespace is a premium, every peak time I have been to a GW, the tables are PACKED, and there are people waiting to use them. I see nothing wrong with allowing actual customers who actually spend money to be prioritized for space. My local store does so via a campaign system and house rules which allow you to make a 'unit card' when you buy a set of models and that unit gets bonus rules when you assemble and then again when you paint it. It is a 'I bought it here in store' reward. If you don't have at least one unit like this for the campaign period, you don't get to use the tables when other people are there. Basically paying customers play first. It works, the people who are there are happy, it drives sales. Anyone who doesn't like it is already in the parking lot pounding sand and probably posting false rumors on online boards.
I'm not sure whether the OP's story is truthful or not, but I'd actually be somewhat in favour of this voucher system.
GW locations are stores after all and not clubs where you can just go hang out whenever you are bored. I often see people enter my local GW and just start playing games then hang around for a few hours. Now you might think this is perfectly fine and helps keep the community strong - fair enough.
However, there are a few regulars that are in the store all the time and I mean almost every day for 3+ hours and I'm sure they are not buying each day. It clutters up the store and takes gaming space away from people (like myself) who come in to purchase something and then grab a quick game or two. I can only imagine the impact on a smaller locations with only 2-3 gaming tables.
I'm not saying you should always buy something just to participate in the hobby, but there are freeloaders out there who abuse the honour system of supporting your store.
All that the FLGSs that have tried it around here managed, was to loose customers and subsequently go bankrupt, so no, I don't think that it is reasonable when an FLGS does it as well.
Table space in a store should be considered as advertisement for their products and as community building "helpers". If you have a community of loyal people that plays at your store, chances are that they will also buy at your store. Sure, you'll always have the 1 or 2 free loaders that only buy online and basically use the tables "for free", but it makes much more business sense to endure these 1 or 2 people than to risk alienating all your other customers by charging them a fee to use the store tables.
I have seen the opposite, I have seen loudmouth freeloaders drive entire customer bases away, and the result is usually a removal of open gaming 100% from the store and a total transition to Magic or YuGiOh. If you attempt to tolerate the freeloaders and unpleasant people who buy nothing in your store and often campaign for online sales vs your store, then having them around is a drain on your store. if they come for the 'free gaming' then 'free gaming' is a negative now. Sometimes it is fine to purge non-customers who are ruining your establishment.
Sadly it usually results in gaming being removed or banished to 'tuesday night' because one or two freeloading loudmouths have to ruin it for all. If squeezing a small amount of money out of those guys makes them evaporate, then it is worth every penny. Considering the number of freeloaders on Dakka who don't pay where they play but then in turn demand free gaming... I believe more and more in this policy with every passing day.
You do realise that there are other options between "accept everything from everyone that enters your store regardless if they spend any money in there or not" and "start charging everyone for playing", right?
If someone is as disruptive and harmful as you state, then the store manager can simply bar that person from entering the store. There, problem solved without endangering the store's relationship with the rest of its paying customers.
It is indeed fine and even desirable to purge non-customers who create a negative atmosphere, but never at the expense of your real customers and that is exactly what these blanket measures do.
You do realise that there are other options between "accept everything from everyone that enters your store regardless if they spend any money in there or not" and "start charging everyone for playing", right?
If someone is as disruptive and harmful as you state, then the store manager can simply bar that person from entering the store. There, problem solved without endangering the store's relationship with the rest of its paying customers.
It is indeed fine and even desirable to purge non-customers who create a negative atmosphere, but never at the expense of your real customers and that is exactly what these blanket measures do.
The other options often are: "Stop wargaming open play, have Magic the Gathering non-stop all weekend. Make cheap deadbeat wargamers play on 'club night'"
And 'banning' people is a huge logistical pain in the ass. It is much better to simply have policies which make those people either get with the program or get out.
Pandering to non-customers is not the way to run a business. Usually real customers understand and don't mind supporting the store. 'Store credit to play' is somewhat common and doesn't hurt anyone who already pays to play. You can't please all of the people all of the time. Every policy will lose customers, it is up to a store owner to decide if the real customers LOST via pay to play outweigh the added customers of people happy to Pay to Play and the environment it builds as pay to play can justify weekend primetime opposed to being banished by Magic the gathering. If such a policy increases customers, then so be it. You can't make a blanket statement that it always results in a negative as many stores have proven it to be false.
You have to know your customer base and what works for you.
I very much favor pay to play at the FLGS. I just think it would be a silly policy for a GW store (though it looks like they aren't doing it). What is the incentive to go to a GW store?
Here in the US GW stores are often in stiff competition with the FLGS (assuming there is a GW in the vicinity). A GW store only sells GW products, typically has limited table space, and sells pretty hard to its customers. Stock on the shelves is almost certainly not much more comprehensive than a decent FLGS. If GW charged to play, why would there be any reason at all to chose a GW store over a FLGS, other than something like proximity?
That's my point. GW stores offer less, not more, and they exist to market GW's products and only GW's products. They don't exist to anchor a hobby community, not anymore. So if you have to pay to play, why not just pay to play at a club or a FLGS?
GW should want you in its stores and only its stores, ever. So GW should be incentivised to give you 999 reasons to visit the store, otherwise the stores are a fantastic waste of money for the company, especially in the US, where GW does not have the resources to maintain enough stores to have any meaningful retail presence.
Can you refute or validate this rumor? My source is someone who plays there and has posted. I'd prefer not to out his name for privacy reasons. Otherwise then, back off.
No one asked for the guys name. But some clue as to how you know the guy would have helped somewhat, someone told me is much like saying "Honest this happened to my mothers brothers sisters second cousin".
Can you refute or validate this rumor? My source is someone who plays there and has posted. I'd prefer not to out his name for privacy reasons. Otherwise then, back off.
Here's a concept: Call the game store yourself and ask them. Heck, you could even *gasp* post the name and location of the store and I'm sure others would call them for you.
Simple enough.
*side note, because we may as well derail the thread: Asimov in his Foundation series stated that one factor in the downfall of society is when people stop checking facts for themselves and instead rely on the points of view of people who, also, have never checked out those "facts".. There was a sub story where a King (or equivalent) went out of his way to track down a copy of a book which discussed a particular historical "fact". Instead of simply going to the point of origin and looking for himself, (yes, the veracity of the claim was apparently easy to prove/disprove), he wasted his and everyone else's time locating this book. The book was written by an author that had also never gone to that original point to see for himself and instead had based his writings on those of yet another person who, laughingly, had also never investigated the actual "fact" but rather wrote his book based on rumor and hearsay. Of course, that seems to be the primary operating principal of the Internet...
Moral of the story: Do your own fact checking. Especially when it's as easy as picking up a phone. Second moral: don't be a troll.
Games Workshop in Cheltenham DOES do this (or at least did).
Spend a value (either 15, or 20 pounds) and you get a token. You can either then exchange this token for an hour on a gaming table (I think it's 2' by 4' so a third of a normal board), or 2 hours painting in store.
I have no idea if they continued this, but it certainly was in place a few months ago. They had a big plastic sweet/candy jar where they kept the tokens.
Some of the management in our local store was hinting at pay to play but everyone poo pood it as soon as it was mentioned. Its not good to piss off your customers if your a small store. GW gets away with it but I highly doubt a small FLGS can.
I always try to buy something in the store when I go even if its a soda and some chips but still there is a line.
Many of us can play at our homes but the store offers a neutral ground for everyone. Plus your assuming that we as customers are all freeloaders. I actually sold 2 people on 40k the last time I was in store and encourage them to join our group. Your also assuming that your shop is necessary or the only one.
We can get our model's anywhere or game anywhere but we choose your shop because we like your store.
if ya buying from the store ya will get the tokens by default. If ya not spending in the store then why do folks think they get the automatic right to game there. Support where you game or do one freeloader
I always try to buy something in the store when I go even if its a soda and some chips but still there is a line.
Almost no margin on a retail purchased food-stuff resold compared to 40% margin on 100$ of models. "I buy chips and soda" to justify your existence is the same as saying "I am a freeloader." Even the margin on hobby supplies or a paint pot is better than the snacks.
The store is not a 7-11 and is not in business to sell snacks and not being a food retailer with a distributor means they make minimal profit off those snacks, because if he was charging movie-house prices to make real profit, people wouldn't even buy the snacks. Snacks do not keep the lights on or justify the rent on the air you breathe.
I always try to buy something in the store when I go even if its a soda and some chips but still there is a line.
Almost no margin on a retail purchased food-stuff resold compared to 40% margin on 100$ of models. "I buy chips and soda" to justify your existence is the same as saying "I am a freeloader." Even the margin on hobby supplies or a paint pot is better than the snacks.
The store is not a 7-11 and is not in business to sell snacks and not being a food retailer with a distributor means they make minimal profit off those snacks, because if he was charging movie-house prices to make real profit, people wouldn't even buy the snacks. Snacks do not keep the lights on or justify the rent on the air you breathe.
People, please stop tugging the pull string on his back. I think he's running out of phrases.
You wouldn't really be satisfied unless every guy that came in a shop you had spent thousands of £££'s in cash then left immediately. Am I correct Mr Albertson?
People, please stop tugging the pull string on his back. I think he's running out of phrases.
You wouldn't really be satisfied unless every guy that came in a shop you had spent thousands of £££'s in cash then left immediately. Am I correct Mr Albertson?
So basically you have nothing useful to contribute to this discussion.
People, please stop tugging the pull string on his back. I think he's running out of phrases.
You wouldn't really be satisfied unless every guy that came in a shop you had spent thousands of £££'s in cash then left immediately. Am I correct Mr Albertson?
So basically you have nothing useful to contribute to this discussion.
Got it.
Better than spouting the same lines over and over again WRTFLGS's. It gets tiring.
People, please stop tugging the pull string on his back. I think he's running out of phrases.
You wouldn't really be satisfied unless every guy that came in a shop you had spent thousands of £££'s in cash then left immediately. Am I correct Mr Albertson?
So basically you have nothing useful to contribute to this discussion.
Got it.
Better than spouting the same lines over and over again WRTFLGS's. It gets tiring.
Oh my god, it's almost like discussions on similar tactics can happen more than once!
I always try to buy something in the store when I go even if its a soda and some chips but still there is a line.
Almost no margin on a retail purchased food-stuff resold compared to 40% margin on 100$ of models. "I buy chips and soda" to justify your existence is the same as saying "I am a freeloader." Even the margin on hobby supplies or a paint pot is better than the snacks.
The store is not a 7-11 and is not in business to sell snacks and not being a food retailer with a distributor means they make minimal profit off those snacks, because if he was charging movie-house prices to make real profit, people wouldn't even buy the snacks. Snacks do not keep the lights on or justify the rent on the air you breathe.
Your in the business of retail. That means you serve the customer. If your store is in such distress that you have to antagonize your customers to stay afloat then that's your problem. You didn't do your homework before you started up. Just because you can afford to through around cash like it doesn't matter doesn't mean everyone else does.
Customers offer free demo's and free sells support to anyone walking in and encourages them to participate and make purchases rather than just having an empty store. If you can't do your job correctly then there are plenty of other store's that will. Instead of blaming your customers maybe you should actually discuss with them why they don't give you more business. Maybe some other location has better sales than you but no play space. It could be any number of things. There are ways to positively encourage your customer's rather than attacking them. Your store is not God's gift to wargamers.
Kanluwen wrote: I read it and I don't agree with it. It's predicated upon the notion that goodGW employees are interchangeable.
No it's not. It's pretty cut and dry:
"GW stores are not individual businesses, they're a branch of the company dedicated to providing easy local sales and a place to play (and therefore encouraging people to buy the game). It makes no sense for GW to charge for table space because no matter who you buy GW products from GW is still making a profit. It's potentially good business sense for an independent store to charge for tables because they need income to that store specifically if they want to survive, and they can potentially provide a much better gaming experience that justifies charging for table space."
None of that has anything to do with GW employees or how interchangable they are. GW stores are not independantly owned, nor are they franchised. They are part of a collective - they are chain stores. Actual indie stores are not. Disagree all you want Kan, and continue to leap in slow motion in front of every metaphorical bullet people aim at GW, but Peregrine is still 100% correct here.
Kanluwen wrote: I read it and I don't agree with it. It's predicated upon the notion that goodGW employees are interchangeable.
No it's not. It's pretty cut and dry:
"GW stores are not individual businesses, they're a branch of the company dedicated to providing easy local sales and a place to play (and therefore encouraging people to buy the game). It makes no sense for GW to charge for table space because no matter who you buy GW products from GW is still making a profit. It's potentially good business sense for an independent store to charge for tables because they need income to that store specifically if they want to survive, and they can potentially provide a much better gaming experience that justifies charging for table space."
None of that has anything to do with GW employees or how interchangable they are. GW stores are not independantly owned, nor are they franchised. They are part of a collective - they are chain stores. Actual indie stores are not. Disagree all you want Kan, and continue to leap in slow motion in front of every metaphorical bullet people aim at GW, but Peregrine is still 100% correct here.
I like how you left out the second part which frames my statement in context.
GW stores might not be "independently owned or franchised", but that does not mean that the employees are given the same treatment that an employee in a conventionally managed shop would in regards to salary and employee reviews. They are essentially operating under a quota system for their sales figures. A good manager at a GW shop gets you interested involved in the community at large while at the same time getting you to make purchases through the store--even at retail prices. Those managers though are also the people who set up in store events and maintain the shop and make people want to continue coming back. It's not the fact that it is a GW store that gets people in there past their initial purchases or a cursory look at the shop. It's the managers.
To pretend that GW stores are "not individual businesses" is ridiculous. They might have a set of guidelines given to them by corporate but how strictly they are followed is based upon the manager--who in turn is adapting those guidelines based upon the community he is dealing with.
But really though, you can knock off the white knight nonsense if you want to have an actual conversation.
Kanluwen wrote: GW stores might not be "independently owned or franchised", but that does not mean that the employees are given the same treatment that an employee in a conventionally managed shop would in regards to salary and employee reviews. They are essentially operating under a quota system for their sales figures.
And this is the "idiotic mistake" I mentioned. Treating their employees this way is stupid. If someone plays at a local GW store and buys GW products online because they have a place to play then GW is still getting sales. The store is still doing its other job of promoting the hobby (aka marketing) even if it isn't making the final sale. But instead of understanding this obvious fact GW acts like their various retail options are in competition with each other and you have local GW store employees trying to compete with everyone else selling GW products.
Now, I understand that trying to track performance based on more than just how much stuff was purchased at each individual cash register is considerably more difficult, but that's the whole problem. Yet again GW is sacrificing quality because it's easier to do it the lazy way.
A good manager at a GW shop gets you interested involved in the community at large while at the same time getting you to make purchases through the store--even at retail prices.
No they don't. No amount of "good managing" at a GW shop is going to get me to buy anything there, other than maybe a pot of paint that doesn't justify the cost of shipping. If I'm buying anything big enough to cover the shipping cost I'm buying it online at a discount, or at an independent store at a smaller discount and supporting a local business.
Kanluwen wrote: Purchases made in the store(including gift cards) and Direct only purchases made in the store for pick-up in the store count towards the store sales figures, but orders made via the GW website at home for pick up at the store do not count.
And that is just unbelievably stupid. With pickup orders you don't even have the excuse of it being difficult to track who should get credit for the sale. This is just more of the spectacular idiocy of GW competing with itself.
nkelsch wrote: And I have seen Peregrin's comment, I disagree with its premise. In stores where tablespace is a premium, every peak time I have been to a GW, the tables are PACKED, and there are people waiting to use them.
My experience is the opposite. GW has space, the independent stores usually have space (of course one of them has enough space for 10+ wargaming tables while still running a MTG tournament).
I see nothing wrong with allowing actual customers who actually spend money to be prioritized for space.
Everyone who has spent money on GW models has spent money with GW and therefore should get equal priority. Remember, I'm talking about GW stores, not independent stores where someone buying online really is a lost sale.
Compel wrote: Games Workshop in Cheltenham DOES do this (or at least did).
Spend a value (either 15, or 20 pounds) and you get a token. You can either then exchange this token for an hour on a gaming table (I think it's 2' by 4' so a third of a normal board), or 2 hours painting in store.
Wow. That's just hilariously awful. Spend a non-trivial amount of money, get either a rushed "game" on a tiny table or the "privilege" of painting in a store instead of at home. I honestly can't imagine why anyone would ever willingly go into that store.
Kanluwen wrote: I read it and I don't agree with it. It's predicated upon the notion that goodGW employees are interchangeable.
No it's not. It's pretty cut and dry:
"GW stores are not individual businesses, they're a branch of the company dedicated to providing easy local sales and a place to play (and therefore encouraging people to buy the game). It makes no sense for GW to charge for table space because no matter who you buy GW products from GW is still making a profit. It's potentially good business sense for an independent store to charge for tables because they need income to that store specifically if they want to survive, and they can potentially provide a much better gaming experience that justifies charging for table space."
None of that has anything to do with GW employees or how interchangable they are. GW stores are not independantly owned, nor are they franchised. They are part of a collective - they are chain stores. Actual indie stores are not. Disagree all you want Kan, and continue to leap in slow motion in front of every metaphorical bullet people aim at GW, but Peregrine is still 100% correct here.
I like how you left out the second part which frames my statement in context.
GW stores might not be "independently owned or franchised", but that does not mean that the employees are given the same treatment that an employee in a conventionally managed shop would in regards to salary and employee reviews. They are essentially operating under a quota system for their sales figures. A good manager at a GW shop gets you interested involved in the community at large while at the same time getting you to make purchases through the store--even at retail prices. Those managers though are also the people who set up in store events and maintain the shop and make people want to continue coming back. It's not the fact that it is a GW store that gets people in there past their initial purchases or a cursory look at the shop. It's the managers.
To pretend that GW stores are "not individual businesses" is ridiculous. They might have a set of guidelines given to them by corporate but how strictly they are followed is based upon the manager--who in turn is adapting those guidelines based upon the community he is dealing with.
But really though, you can knock off the white knight nonsense if you want to have an actual conversation.
What?
You mean all the years I worked for a company where my salary was directly related to my sales performance, and the years I was responsible for the running of a whole store and it's performance, I was secretly my own boss??!!
Why did nobody tell me? Then all those stupid edicts that came down from on high that limited my ability to do the job as I wanted could simply have been ignored! They couldn't possibly have fired me, I was self employed!
Honestly, what you are describing Kan is just anybody with half a clue working in a retail sales job. To try and assert they are in any way akin to running your own business (and for clarity, I've done both) is either naive or plain dumb.
Honestly, what you are describing Kan is just anybody with half a clue working in a retail sales job. To try and assert they are in any way akin to running your own business (and for clarity, I've done both) is either naive or plain dumb.
The hours of the shops are set by the managers.
The days of the week that they are open are set by the managers.
The only thing that managers really do not have control over at a GW shop are what they stock.
Honestly, what you are describing Kan is just anybody with half a clue working in a retail sales job. To try and assert they are in any way akin to running your own business (and for clarity, I've done both) is either naive or plain dumb.
The hours of the shops are set by the managers.
The days of the week that they are open are set by the managers.
The only thing that managers really do not have control over at a GW shop are what they stock.
No they're not.
GW stores operate on the same hours regardless. Closed monday/tuesday. Open weds to sun. The only thing that has changed is it appears the manager has control over when the late night is, as it used to be standardised to thursday, but my local's is on a weds.
Kanluwen wrote: The hours of the shops are set by the managers.
The days of the week that they are open are set by the managers.
The only thing that managers really do not have control over at a GW shop are what they stock.
That's not always true.
The GW near me and the most successful GW in Oz (until it shut down/moved elsewhere, respectively) had their hours set by the shopping centre they were in. They had to be open between X and Y hours, and on certain days of the week.
Honestly, what you are describing Kan is just anybody with half a clue working in a retail sales job. To try and assert they are in any way akin to running your own business (and for clarity, I've done both) is either naive or plain dumb.
The hours of the shops are set by the managers.
The days of the week that they are open are set by the managers.
The only thing that managers really do not have control over at a GW shop are what they stock.
Yeah, cause when you have your days off are just about the most important thing you have to consider when you're running a business.
They don't choose who works for them, how much they are paid or what benefits they are entitled to, what they stock, how much of it they stock, what price they sell product for or if and how much of a discount to offer, they do not liaise with suppliers and wholesalers, and have to ensure they are paid, they are not responsible for managing the utilities or the rent, nor for making sure they are paid on time, they aren't responsible for any more than the most basic bookeeping, nor for ensuring their accounts are up to date and all tax owed is paid, most importantly, they don't have to ensure that their is money in the bank to pay the wages each month, regardless of everything else that has happened.
Lutharr101 wrote: he may not be correct about them being their own buisness but the rest of it is pretty accurate. Dont see the need to start insulting the guy
It was a reference back to my earlier post, I'm not calling him naive or dumb, merely that to argue being a GW store manager is in any tangible way akin to running your own business is either naive (ie he doesn't really have a firm grasp of exactly what running your own business is like) or, well, dumb.
Lutharr101 wrote: he may not be correct about them being their own buisness but the rest of it is pretty accurate. Dont see the need to start insulting the guy
It's not though. Put your local into GW's store finder. Look at the hours of all of the other stores within the radius you set. You'll see yours is the exception (possibly as it is in a shopping centre, so its hours are set by when that opens) and not how 99% of all the other stores operate.
For example, my local store has 2 staff still. I often wonder why the 1 man opening hours are still in place. Surely if the manager could determine the hours as you so claim then it would open on monday and tuesday?
Honestly, what you are describing Kan is just anybody with half a clue working in a retail sales job. To try and assert they are in any way akin to running your own business (and for clarity, I've done both) is either naive or plain dumb.
The hours of the shops are set by the managers.
The days of the week that they are open are set by the managers.
The only thing that managers really do not have control over at a GW shop are what they stock.
Yeah, cause when you have your days off are just about the most important thing you have to consider when you're running a business.
They don't choose who works for them, how much they are paid or what benefits they are entitled to, what they stock, how much of it they stock, they do not liaise with suppliers and wholesalers, and have to ensure they are paid, they are not responsible for managing the utilities or the rent, nor for making sure they are paid on time, they aren't responsible for any more than the most basic bookeeping, nor for ensuring their accounts are up to date and all tax owed is paid, most importantly, they don't have to ensure that their is money in the bank to pay the wages each month, regardless of everything else that has happened.
Again, naive or dumb, your call.
I don't know how it is in the UK, but here in the US my experiences with the "new model" GW shops?
1) They're set in shopping centers rather than malls, so they get to set their own hours.
2) The managers are the ONLY employee at the shop on a regular basis. There is a "replacement" who is unpaid except for when they are actually needed(an example is when the actual manager is going to Memphis for some kind of training session or Vegas for a GW sponsored meeting) and is picked by the manager. There is also another level of "replacement" that is essentially a floating manager who subs in when the full time manager is leaving/has left and the new hire is not available.
3)The utilities and other sundry items are handled by GW corporate not by the manager. There are no suppliers or wholesalers for a GW manager to deal with--just the company he works for.
Lutharr101 wrote: he may not be correct about them being their own buisness but the rest of it is pretty accurate. Dont see the need to start insulting the guy
It's not though. Put your local into GW's store finder. Look at the hours of all of the other stores within the radius you set. You'll see yours is the exception (possibly as it is in a shopping centre, so its hours are set by when that opens) and not how 99% of all the other stores operate.
For example, my local store has 2 staff still. I often wonder why the 1 man opening hours are still in place. Surely if the manager could determine the hours as you so claim then it would open on monday and tuesday?
i dont know about all other stores. Your statement said all stores so I corrected that. And its not in a shopping centre thats dictated by their opening times at all. AFAIK after speaking with him the hours are there to better suit him because he has to travel everyday to get to the shop.
Honestly, what you are describing Kan is just anybody with half a clue working in a retail sales job. To try and assert they are in any way akin to running your own business (and for clarity, I've done both) is either naive or plain dumb.
The hours of the shops are set by the managers.
The days of the week that they are open are set by the managers.
The only thing that managers really do not have control over at a GW shop are what they stock.
Yeah, cause when you have your days off are just about the most important thing you have to consider when you're running a business.
They don't choose who works for them, how much they are paid or what benefits they are entitled to, what they stock, how much of it they stock, they do not liaise with suppliers and wholesalers, and have to ensure they are paid, they are not responsible for managing the utilities or the rent, nor for making sure they are paid on time, they aren't responsible for any more than the most basic bookeeping, nor for ensuring their accounts are up to date and all tax owed is paid, most importantly, they don't have to ensure that their is money in the bank to pay the wages each month, regardless of everything else that has happened.
Again, naive or dumb, your call.
I don't know how it is in the UK, but here in the US my experiences with the "new model" GW shops?
1) They're set in shopping centers rather than malls, so they get to set their own hours.
2) The managers are the ONLY employee at the shop on a regular basis. There is a "replacement" who is unpaid except for when they are actually needed(an example is when the actual manager is going to Memphis for some kind of training session or Vegas for a GW sponsored meeting) and is picked by the manager. There is also another level of "replacement" that is essentially a floating manager who subs in when the full time manager is leaving/has left and the new hire is not available.
3)The utilities and other sundry items are handled by GW corporate not by the manager. There are no suppliers or wholesalers for a GW manager to deal with--just the company he works for.
That's pretty much the same in the UK, and that's my point, being a GW manager is in no way analogous to running your own business, they don't have to deal with half the things you will encounter on a day to day basis. Even "manager" is debatable when you only have yourself to manage. Perhaps even more importantly, the buck does not stop with a GW manager, they are not the highest authority, the business' survival doesn't hang on their decision making (although theirs does to some extent I suppose, but no more than any other employee in any other job)
Id hate to be a GW manager. Having to compete against 3rd party stores that give massive discounts and have next to no say is ridiculous. As you say Azrael the term manager is quite silly since its only themselves. But they still have targets to hit that are imo unrealistic considering their compention is holding all the cards.
I've a background in retail sales as I mentioned, ~5 years as a grunt and about 6 as a manager, and a further 3 running my own place, there's no way I would consider a GW gig.
Lutharr101 wrote: Id hate to be a GW manager. Having to compete against 3rd party stores that give massive discounts and have next to no say is ridiculous. As you say Azrael the term manager is quite silly since its only themselves. But they still have targets to hit that are imo unrealistic considering their compention is holding all the cards.
And, again, this is why GW is so utterly stupid. Independent stores selling GW products are not competition! By hiring and firing people based on how many sales go through their specific cash register GW has created a situation where they're competing with themselves.
It has probably lost the few people the owner explicitly intended to lose with such a policy, usually non-customers monopolizing space from real customers. I consider pay to play perfectly reasonable.
But of course, when a FLGS does it, it is reasonable, and when GW does it, it is a sign of the Apocalypse and resulting in the murder of babies.
I believe in "pay where you play" - though a policy like this would likely make me buy more stuff from online sources, etc.
my friends and i are all clean-limbed young men with disposable income...nothing is more offputting to us than a gw full of neckbeards loudly having a battle of 40k. Those shops are very cramped and 'personal', and people battling do get in the way of browsing.
But then the tables in gw are so small that anyone remotely serious wouldn't think of playing there anyway. I think it's mainly newcomers/kids who use them, it seems to be anyway.
Can you refute or validate this rumor? My source is someone who plays there and has posted. I'd prefer not to out his name for privacy reasons. Otherwise then, back off.
Here's a concept: Call the game store yourself and ask them. Heck, you could even *gasp* post the name and location of the store and I'm sure others would call them for you.
Simple enough.
*side note, because we may as well derail the thread: Asimov in his Foundation series stated that one factor in the downfall of society is when people stop checking facts for themselves and instead rely on the points of view of people who, also, have never checked out those "facts".. There was a sub story where a King (or equivalent) went out of his way to track down a copy of a book which discussed a particular historical "fact". Instead of simply going to the point of origin and looking for himself, (yes, the veracity of the claim was apparently easy to prove/disprove), he wasted his and everyone else's time locating this book. The book was written by an author that had also never gone to that original point to see for himself and instead had based his writings on those of yet another person who, laughingly, had also never investigated the actual "fact" but rather wrote his book based on rumor and hearsay. Of course, that seems to be the primary operating principal of the Internet...
Moral of the story: Do your own fact checking. Especially when it's as easy as picking up a phone. Second moral: don't be a troll.
It was 2am in the UK when I posted. I was hoping some gamer was up reading Dakka at that time.
Thanks Bert.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
The manager at Croydon has told me the voucher system is gone. He just started there yesterday.
That's pretty much the same in the UK, and that's my point, being a GW manager is in no way analogous to running your own business, they don't have to deal with half the things you will encounter on a day to day basis. Even "manager" is debatable when you only have yourself to manage. Perhaps even more importantly, the buck does not stop with a GW manager, they are not the highest authority, the business' survival doesn't hang on their decision making (although theirs does to some extent I suppose, but no more than any other employee in any other job)
I think we're talking at cross purposes here. I'm trying to put forth the point that when you look at a GW employee, they have some of the annoyances of being a sales associate(set quotas to meet and the generic upkeep of the storefront as an example) and that of a midlevel/lower tier manager.
Sure there is a higher authority, but that authority is not necessarily there to stick their neck out to cover the employee.
That's pretty much the same in the UK, and that's my point, being a GW manager is in no way analogous to running your own business, they don't have to deal with half the things you will encounter on a day to day basis. Even "manager" is debatable when you only have yourself to manage. Perhaps even more importantly, the buck does not stop with a GW manager, they are not the highest authority, the business' survival doesn't hang on their decision making (although theirs does to some extent I suppose, but no more than any other employee in any other job)
I think we're talking at cross purposes here. I'm trying to put forth the point that when you look at a GW employee, they have some of the annoyances of being a sales associate(set quotas to meet and the generic upkeep of the storefront as an example) and that of a midlevel/lower tier manager.
Sure there is a higher authority, but that authority is not necessarily there to stick their neck out to cover the employee.
Perhaps we are, but I was responding to this
To pretend that GW stores are "not individual businesses" is ridiculous. They might have a set of guidelines given to them by corporate but how strictly they are followed is based upon the manager--who in turn is adapting those guidelines based upon the community he is dealing with.
Emphasis mine, which seems pretty clear, but if that isn't what you meant, then yes, from your most recent post, we seem to broadly agree.
Grimtuff wrote: If you're in a shopping centre then the hours are set by when the building opens. That is not setting your own hours.
I think shopping center has a different meaning for you than it does for me.
A shopping center is not a closed building generally, but rather a collection of smaller units in an open air setting.
Not sure about the UK, but a "shopping centre" here in Australia is mostly used for what I believe US residents call a "Shopping Mall" - as in (mostly) enclosed shops in a large, sprawling building/chain of buildings. It can also be used for more open places like this, where most of the shops are outside but there's also a large internal "mall" space. Though it's more of a "Plaza". For a collection of shops in a (generally older) suburban or urban area, it's a shopping precinct. More akin to what I believe are called "High Streets" in the UK?
We use "Mall" to mean a pedestrian shopping mall - which is made up of a street with shops with no automobile traffic (though in Melbourne's main mall, we have Trams).
Newer suburbs tend to have smaller Malls and Plazas, while older areas have precincts or a mix of both as urban renewal continues to roll on.
Just small but sometimes-relevant differences in meaning between the various dialects of English - It's like "truck" or "biscuit" to an extent.
ellis_esquire wrote: OK all - Croydon is my local store - I think the OP has this confused with Heroes and Legends - our local non GW gaming store - which is AWESOME btw.
They've just started charging monies. 2.50 for a three hour slot per person, which aint bad really. Unlike GW you can use bathrooms, make tea and eat in their and generally have 3-5 big tables to choose from.
It has lost a few people to this but still good value for my 2 cents.. or is that pennies?
That sounds like a sweet deal, anybody turning that down seems to have reacted a little harshly. Cheers for the clarification.
It has probably lost the few people the owner explicitly intended to lose with such a policy, usually non-customers monopolizing space from real customers. I consider pay to play perfectly reasonable.
But of course, when a FLGS does it, it is reasonable, and when GW does it, it is a sign of the Apocalypse and resulting in the murder of babies.
All that the FLGSs that have tried it around here managed, was to loose customers and subsequently go bankrupt, so no, I don't think that it is reasonable when an FLGS does it as well.
Table space in a store should be considered as advertisement for their products and as community building "helpers". If you have a community of loyal people that plays at your store, chances are that they will also buy at your store. Sure, you'll always have the 1 or 2 free loaders that only buy online and basically use the tables "for free", but it makes much more business sense to endure these 1 or 2 people than to risk alienating all your other customers by charging them a fee to use the store tables.
nothing wrong with charging to play IMO. especially if the tables are big and nice and a lot of effort/money was put into building, painting them and the terrain.
if someone is so cheap or gets butthurt so easily at having to pay 2.50-5 $ for three hours of gaming the store owner is better off not having them as a customer anyway.
Or it could be that the customer spends hundreds (or indeed, thousands) of dollars a year at the place rather than online and sees being asked to pay a needless insult and takes their business online instead.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Context is everything.
Lutharr101 wrote: if ya buying from the store ya will get the tokens by default. If ya not spending in the store then why do folks think they get the automatic right to game there. Support where you game or do one freeloader
Because pretty much every piece of literature GW has ever produced (until very recently?) has a page at the back telling you to pop into a hobby centre for a game.
The stores are also not running in isolation; if I bought my entire army from GW Glasgow, should I be allowed to use it in GW Nottingham or do I need to buy it again?
Azazelx wrote: Or it could be that the customer spends hundreds (or indeed, thousands) of dollars a year at the place rather than online and sees being asked to pay a needless insult and takes their business online instead.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Context is everything.
what if you just had it be like a pool hall. beautiful tables and terrain and just charge for that, no store whatsoever to complicate things. that's actually not too bad of an idea.
Azazelx wrote: Or it could be that the customer spends hundreds (or indeed, thousands) of dollars a year at the place rather than online and sees being asked to pay a needless insult and takes their business online instead.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Context is everything.
what if you just had it be like a pool hall. beautiful tables and terrain and just charge for that, no store whatsoever to complicate things. that's actually not too bad of an idea.
Yeah, go and ask Maelstrom Games how that worked out for them...
I didn't think it was the gaming area in Maelstrom which caused them problems. I never played there but the gaming space looked brilliant.
The same sort of thing works alright at the gaming clubs I use; both are pay to play, one has no shop and the other has a cafe and shop and both seem to be doing pretty well.
ellis_esquire wrote: OK all - Croydon is my local store - I think the OP has this confused with Heroes and Legends - our local non GW gaming store - which is AWESOME btw.
They've just started charging monies. 2.50 for a three hour slot per person, which aint bad really. Unlike GW you can use bathrooms, make tea and eat in their and generally have 3-5 big tables to choose from.
It has lost a few people to this but still good value for my 2 cents.. or is that pennies?
That sounds like a sweet deal, anybody turning that down seems to have reacted a little harshly. Cheers for the clarification.
It has probably lost the few people the owner explicitly intended to lose with such a policy, usually non-customers monopolizing space from real customers. I consider pay to play perfectly reasonable.
But of course, when a FLGS does it, it is reasonable, and when GW does it, it is a sign of the Apocalypse and resulting in the murder of babies.
All that the FLGSs that have tried it around here managed, was to loose customers and subsequently go bankrupt, so no, I don't think that it is reasonable when an FLGS does it as well.
Table space in a store should be considered as advertisement for their products and as community building "helpers". If you have a community of loyal people that plays at your store, chances are that they will also buy at your store. Sure, you'll always have the 1 or 2 free loaders that only buy online and basically use the tables "for free", but it makes much more business sense to endure these 1 or 2 people than to risk alienating all your other customers by charging them a fee to use the store tables.
Tables and time are finite resources. (Well, time is not technically finite outside of a cosmological sense, but time in the shop is). If you have a finite resource and demand that exceeds that, you normally sell it. I don't really have a problem with it. It also has a couple of other pluses which is that people actually value their time at the table because it now has a price attached to it. So you don't get people dawdling as much, you get less people arguing over a small sub-set always being there and monopolizing the resource. Read about the Tragedy of the Commons.
Of course you need to encourage people to play and it's mean to charge if there isn't excess demand. So probably what stores should do is mark out "free periods" at quieter times and then have bookable slots. Then you get the best of both - those who really want to be organized and play seriously, they can book a few hours for a relatively cheap rate, others can take their chances with the free slots.
There's another plus with paid table time. It makes having tables a revenue stream in itself, rather than just a burden on the store needed for marketing purposes. That way you're more likely to see multiple tables, larger stores, because paid time will offset the costs of that. Honestly, the place someone mentioned where they have four tables, you pay for the time and you can make tea there and use the bathrooms, etc. It sounds great. If I lived nearer, I'd totally pay for that assuming it's not too expensive. There are tonnes of people who want to game but don't have a lot of space and perhaps can't afford to spend a lot of money or time on fancy terrain. When you pay, you usually get higher quality than free alternatives.
I'm quite for it so long as free spaces are kept available. We're in a hobby where once we have all the miniatures we need, we're actually good to keep playing for a long time without any further expense. That's good for us in the short-term, but difficult for keeping GW viable. Stores are probably pretty tight in terms of revenue. If they can branch out a little into the sideline of quality gaming environment, that could be good for the hobby.
EDIT: And if you went with the above, obviously what you should do would be to give tokens with purchases which you can use to book table time as well. That way, everyone would think: "I can pay for this table time directly, or I can buy this RipTide and get a whole four battle slots free with it".
Lutharr101 wrote: if ya buying from the store ya will get the tokens by default. If ya not spending in the store then why do folks think they get the automatic right to game there. Support where you game or do one freeloader
Because pretty much every piece of literature GW has ever produced (until very recently?) has a page at the back telling you to pop into a hobby centre for a game.
The stores are also not running in isolation; if I bought my entire army from GW Glasgow, should I be allowed to use it in GW Nottingham or do I need to buy it again?
And this is where GW make it difficult for their managers and shops. Yes you bought GW stuff from Glasgow, but that dont help the Nottingham store hit its targets and remain open. Or said manager keep his job. Im on both sides of the fence with this as I see both opinons and agree with both. Its more the people that go to online discounts stores and wont support the local store, yet expect the same considerations as those that do that get on my wick.
Azazelx wrote: Or it could be that the customer spends hundreds (or indeed, thousands) of dollars a year at the place rather than online and sees being asked to pay a needless insult and takes their business online instead.
Herzlos wrote: I didn't think it was the gaming area in Maelstrom which caused them problems. I never played there but the gaming space looked brilliant.
The same sort of thing works alright at the gaming clubs I use; both are pay to play, one has no shop and the other has a cafe and shop and both seem to be doing pretty well.
That is exactly my point, after their online / physical store went't under they tried to maintain their gaming space purely as a pay to play location and did poorly for it. I'm not saying that their troubles were caused by the gaming area, I'm saying that even with was one of the best gaming areas in the UK (or so I was told), they couldn't maintain the pay-to-play business model.
And gaming clubs are a completely different beast to a commercial venue, you usually aren't trying to make a profit in a gaming club for example.
But we've no way of telling if the Maelstrom gaming area decline was because of the reputation hit the Maelstrom shop got; how many people wouldn't go to the gaming area because the shop owed them money?
And this is where GW make it difficult for their managers and shops. Yes you bought GW stuff from Glasgow, but that dont help the Nottingham store hit its targets and remain open. Or said manager keep his job. Im on both sides of the fence with this as I see both opinons and agree with both. Its more the people that go to online discounts stores and wont support the local store, yet expect the same considerations as those that do that get on my wick.
But that's because of the way GW runs things, and is no way the fault of the customer. I'm aware that my presence in Nottingham (or WHW more likely) with stuff I bought from a different branch doesn't help that branch directly, but for every part of my army money went to GW no matter how indirectly (via GW Glasgow, via the FLGS, 2nd hand) even if it didn't go via the store I'm playing in.
In an ideal world / abstract sense, why should I care? I paid money to GW, I should be allowed to use GW facilities as advertised. Just like any other non-franchise chain, they should be interchangeable. I agree that it makes administration and tracking difficult but that's just a symptom of the schizophrenic way in which GW treats all of it's sales channels.
Herzlos wrote: But we've no way of telling if the Maelstrom gaming area decline was because of the reputation hit the Maelstrom shop got; how many people wouldn't go to the gaming area because the shop owed them money?
Grimtuff wrote: If you're in a shopping centre then the hours are set by when the building opens. That is not setting your own hours.
I think shopping center has a different meaning for you than it does for me.
A shopping center is not a closed building generally, but rather a collection of smaller units in an open air setting.
Not sure about the UK, but a "shopping centre" here in Australia is mostly used for what I believe US residents call a "Shopping Mall" - as in (mostly) enclosed shops in a large, sprawling building/chain of buildings. It can also be used for more open places like this, where most of the shops are outside but there's also a large internal "mall" space. Though it's more of a "Plaza". For a collection of shops in a (generally older) suburban or urban area, it's a shopping precinct. More akin to what I believe are called "High Streets" in the UK?
We use "Mall" to mean a pedestrian shopping mall - which is made up of a street with shops with no automobile traffic (though in Melbourne's main mall, we have Trams).
Newer suburbs tend to have smaller Malls and Plazas, while older areas have precincts or a mix of both as urban renewal continues to roll on.
Just small but sometimes-relevant differences in meaning between the various dialects of English - It's like "truck" or "biscuit" to an extent.
You're looking for "strip mall" in the US, i.e. a string of adjacent retail establishments forming a 'strip' with all frontages facing a street.
Yes, "shopping centre" and "mall" are used somewhat interchangeably in the UK. We have big centres like Meadowhall in Sheffield, Merry Hill in Dudley (IIRC), the Eagle centre in Derby and the Victoria centre in Nottingham that people from the US would typically refer to as a "Mall".
Interestingly, my local GW is located in a weird amalgam of the two, as it is considered part of the Waterside centre, yet is located on the outside on Bank Street (guess why it is called that! ) so is not bound by the Waterside's opening times.
Herzlos wrote: But we've no way of telling if the Maelstrom gaming area decline was because of the reputation hit the Maelstrom shop got; how many people wouldn't go to the gaming area because the shop owed them money?
And this is where GW make it difficult for their managers and shops. Yes you bought GW stuff from Glasgow, but that dont help the Nottingham store hit its targets and remain open. Or said manager keep his job. Im on both sides of the fence with this as I see both opinons and agree with both. Its more the people that go to online discounts stores and wont support the local store, yet expect the same considerations as those that do that get on my wick.
But that's because of the way GW runs things, and is no way the fault of the customer. I'm aware that my presence in Nottingham (or WHW more likely) with stuff I bought from a different branch doesn't help that branch directly, but for every part of my army money went to GW no matter how indirectly (via GW Glasgow, via the FLGS, 2nd hand) even if it didn't go via the store I'm playing in.
In an ideal world / abstract sense, why should I care? I paid money to GW, I should be allowed to use GW facilities as advertised. Just like any other non-franchise chain, they should be interchangeable. I agree that it makes administration and tracking difficult but that's just a symptom of the schizophrenic way in which GW treats all of it's sales channels.
Im not saying your wrong in thinking that. Infact given how GW advertise themselves you are perfectly correct. The point Im making is that as a GW manager, would you be rolling out the red carpet to people who dont help sustain that store? People forget that if the store isnt supported it will be closed. Then that option wouldnt even be available to them at all.
I know they started this at my local GW, Cheltenham, a few months back, only it was 20 pounds.
No idea if they are still doing it, since moved house, but it pretty much single handedly killed in store gaming over night. The caveat was that you could still play on Thursday 'open gaming night' for free.
Preston wrote: I know they started this at my local GW, Cheltenham, a few months back, only it was 20 pounds.
No idea if they are still doing it, since moved house, but it pretty much single handedly killed in store gaming over night. The caveat was that you could still play on Thursday 'open gaming night' for free.
Twenty pounds for what? A month's pass? Per game? An everlasting right to game as a member. What? That's a lot of money for someone for, e.g. a month, and it's no money at all for a shop if it's in perpetuity...
Compel wrote: When you spend £20 you got a token for an hour of gaming. I think it was on a 2' by 4' board too. - I mentioned it earlier in the thread.
I can't possibly imagine anyone ever wanting to play for an hour on a 2' by 4' even when it's free.
That's not even enough room for a game of kill team.
Azazelx wrote: Or it could be that the customer spends hundreds (or indeed, thousands) of dollars a year at the place rather than online and sees being asked to pay a needless insult and takes their business online instead.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Context is everything.
what if you just had it be like a pool hall. beautiful tables and terrain and just charge for that, no store whatsoever to complicate things. that's actually not too bad of an idea.
Sounds like a gaming club, which is usually a different story. I've paid memberships and by the day for gaming clubs in the past, and have no issue with that. When I used to play in-store with a group, a lot of us used to spend good money there weekly. I certainly bought something every week, and not "A Mars bar" kinda stuff, either, but small to very large purchases. Usually $20-100 a week. Of course, some of the group didn't spend much. But if they were not there, then neither would those of us who spent significant dollars on a weekly basis.
There's another plus with paid table time. It makes having tables a revenue stream in itself, rather than just a burden on the store needed for marketing purposes. That way you're more likely to see multiple tables, larger stores, because paid time will offset the costs of that. Honestly, the place someone mentioned where they have four tables, you pay for the time and you can make tea there and use the bathrooms, etc. It sounds great. If I lived nearer, I'd totally pay for that assuming it's not too expensive. There are tonnes of people who want to game but don't have a lot of space and perhaps can't afford to spend a lot of money or time on fancy terrain. When you pay, you usually get higher quality than free alternatives.
EDIT: And if you went with the above, obviously what you should do would be to give tokens with purchases which you can use to book table time as well. That way, everyone would think: "I can pay for this table time directly, or I can buy this RipTide and get a whole four battle slots free with it".
See, with something like this - I'd be okay with it as long as there wasn't actually an expectation that I also buy all my stuff from there as well. If the tables become a "revenue stream" that I'm expected to pay for as I would in a gaming club, then I'd no longer feel an obligation to "pay where I play". Now that doesn't mean I'd be dickish about things and say to others "No, don't buy those here - get them online for 40% less!" but I certainly wouldn't feel an obligation to buy those here instead of online.
Twenty pounds for what? A month's pass? Per game? An everlasting right to game as a member. What? That's a lot of money for someone for, e.g. a month, and it's no money at all for a shop if it's in perpetuity...
Spending 20 pounds, as other have said, got you a token for 1 hours gaming on a 4x4 table or 1 hours use of the in store painting stations.
See, with something like this - I'd be okay with it as long as there wasn't actually an expectation that I also buy all my stuff from there as well. If the tables become a "revenue stream" that I'm expected to pay for as I would in a gaming club, then I'd no longer feel an obligation to "pay where I play". Now that doesn't mean I'd be dickish about things and say to others "No, don't buy those here - get them online for 40% less!" but I certainly wouldn't feel an obligation to buy those here instead of online.
And that's the goal - to find something you would be okay with. You're the customer! Putting myself in the hypothetical role of GW or a store (to be clear, I've never run a store), I wouldn't necessarily have a problem with you buying stuff elsewhere. I would see that as a problem to solve - how can I persuade you to buy it here. Gaming tokens with the purchases, would be one thing I would favour for that. The purchasable time, whilst helping me offset the costs of the space and terrain, I would not at all mind if 80% of it was taken up by people using free tokens from purchases. After all, I'm the one deciding whether you get a four-hour token with every £10 or every £40 and thus able to balance my costs. Tokens are even a social thing. Obviously if you have a token and another person doesn't, you can pay for that game. It gets people mixing it up and it encourages purchases because if two people are buying a blister pack of minis they buy them together so that they get a token (and then they game together). Of if someone is buying £36 of stuff, maybe they'll decide to get an extra blister pack to push it up to £40 and get the extra token. The exchange for all this on my side, is that I am no longer just cramming a table into my store and leaving people to waste time there. It's now a service which I have to make sure people are enjoying and think is high quality. I can't just take the attitude of thinking: "I don't owe these people anything - I'm giving them a free table and time!". I have to think: "am I offering a competitive service here?" Good terrain, making sure bookings are handled friendly and efficiently, ideally getting the space to put two tables in...
Trade isn't about one person exploiting the other. Trade is about offering each other something of value. And the more of value I can give you what you want, the more of value you will give me for it. Race to the bottom is a plague on our culture.
But I'll finish up by emphasizing the need to keep free slots available. This is already an expensive hobby and for every person like me who thinks: "I will pay for quality", there's someone else who thinks "I can't pay". There's an economic tipping point in your career when your time becomes valuable enough that it is worth paying for things that save you time. When you pay someone else to paint that wall because taking the time off work to do it yourself would cost you more than hiring a painter and decorator, or when a large table with terrain for afternoon is worth a few quid because you only get so much free time and if you can't buy extra hours in the day, you can at least channel some money into making what hours the day has be nicer. Cut off point is different for everyone and every product. So if I were hypothetically GW, I would do this, but make very sure those who couldn't / didn't want to play, still had some opportunities to do so.
knas ser wrote: Trade isn't about one person exploiting the other. Trade is about offering each other something of value. And the more of value I can give you what you want, the more of value you will give me for it. Race to the bottom is a plague on our culture.
It may be a plague on our culture but that is exactly the point of capitalism. I buy from whoever gives me the best value for money. If two stores are offering identical products for different prices I buy from the cheapest of the two unless there are other factors to consider (like the cheaper store being half an hour away or always having really long lines).
Free in store gaming is another factor to consider and creates a sense of loyalty towards your store but the second you start charging you lose that. That's when you start losing customers to online discountets, and you won't make that money back by charging for table space.
knas ser wrote: Trade isn't about one person exploiting the other. Trade is about offering each other something of value. And the more of value I can give you what you want, the more of value you will give me for it. Race to the bottom is a plague on our culture.
It may be a plague on our culture but that is exactly the point of capitalism. I buy from whoever gives me the best value for money. If two stores are offering identical products for different prices I buy from the cheapest of the two unless there are other factors to consider (like the cheaper store being half an hour away or always having really long lines).
Free in store gaming is another factor to consider and creates a sense of loyalty towards your store but the second you start charging you lose that. That's when you start losing customers to online discountets, and you won't make that money back by charging for table space.
You can't fire me, I quit!
This is chicken and the egg. If you charge me for tables, then I will buy from 40% online discounters... But usually if people charge for tables it is because a significant number of people are already buying from online discounters. Sometimes you can run your company right and just get a local area of gak customers which don't want a store, but want a clubhouse.
So how do you retain people who choose online discounters because they are entitled to using free space and the still purchasing from online discounters in the name of "lowest possible price." If the answer is not to charge for space, then it is to waste space for entitled non-customers or dump open gaming for one "system" for another... Which is basically the result where war gamers are displaced for magic events.
I have never heard any real "solutions" for stores besieged by these mooches, and I have seen a good number. And it boils down to hoping you can survive to see them "move on" and be replaced by people who pay where they play. Some survive, others do not.
jonolikespie wrote: Free in store gaming is another factor to consider and creates a sense of loyalty towards your store but the second you start charging you lose that. That's when you start losing customers to online discountets, and you won't make that money back by charging for table space.
Or you lose that competition to other stores. There are at least 3-4 gaming options within reasonable driving distance where I live, so if one of them started charging for tables (whether directly or indirectly) I'll just go play at one of the other ones. The only way to charge for tables is for every store to agree, and the first one to break the agreement and offer free gaming would have an instant advantage over the others. So, at least around here, offering free gaming space is a mandatory price you pay just for having a chance of getting anyone to buy wargaming stuff from you.
Something you guys seem to be missing though - and it involves the balance between paying customers and "moochers".
Azazelx wrote: When I used to play in-store with a group, a lot of us used to spend good money there weekly. I certainly bought something every week, and not "A Mars bar" kinda stuff, either, but small to very large purchases. Usually $20-100 a week. Of course, some of the group didn't spend much. But if they were not there, then neither would those of us who spent significant dollars on a weekly basis.
Essentially, you boot my mates for not buying/paying and you'll find that I stop going there and spending my money. (FWIW, this was before online discounters, and my friends who didn't spend big or buy a lot were just careful with their money/didn't buy things on impulse/painted everything before buying new stuff/etc. They did buy locally, just not often at all, and when their armies for XYZ game were finished, they were pretty much finished.
knas ser wrote: Trade isn't about one person exploiting the other. Trade is about offering each other something of value. And the more of value I can give you what you want, the more of value you will give me for it. Race to the bottom is a plague on our culture.
It may be a plague on our culture but that is exactly the point of capitalism. I buy from whoever gives me the best value for money. If two stores are offering identical products for different prices I buy from the cheapest of the two unless there are other factors to consider (like the cheaper store being half an hour away or always having really long lines).
Free in store gaming is another factor to consider and creates a sense of loyalty towards your store but the second you start charging you lose that. That's when you start losing customers to online discountets, and you won't make that money back by charging for table space.
You've misunderstood what "Race to the Bottom" is. It doesn't mean two vendors offering the same product and competing on price. It means two vendors competing on price alone and thus reducing the quality of products. E.g. Apple are widely renowned for the quality of the computer hardware. Whereas many Windows OEMs competed primarily on price (race to the bottom) selling ever crappier hardware in the belief that being able to sell for less would get them more sales. Not all did it and if you were willing to pay Apple prices, there were just as good laptops at the high-end for Windows. But the majority of the market was involved in a Race to the Bottom leading to poorer quality. (Thankfully the Windows OEMs have now started to raise their game dramatically).
Trust, me - I know capitalism. I am a capitalist. It's about value for money as you say. Race to the Bottom is a term meaning focusing on the money side of the equation at the expense of the value side.
And I disagree. A modest fee for table use wont dissuade affluent people. And these are the people most able and willing to buy things from you. Seriously - I'll pay £2 for a sandwich from the supermarket when I can't be bothered making one myself in the morning before I leave. Do you really think £2 would stop me from getting a good quality game table in a nice environment? Hell's Teeth, if it means less waiting around and better facilities, I want to pay it. And if it changes the attitude of people who just turn up and piss around on the table for hours because they view it as their right and just a form of hanging out, and instead makes them view it as a service with value that they don't want to waste rather than just a pub where they don't have to buy drinks, then I'm really in favour of it.
People who can't afford it, I am totally fine with - I'm not going to let you turn this into something other than my stated position of "free slots need to be kept", but people who view it as their entitlement for deigning to buy something from the shop, I actually find irksome. As I said at the beginning - I'm a capitalist. If something has value, put a £ sign on it. My feeling is that there are a lot of people who simply freeload - they'll use the store, and buy elsewhere (or hardly buy at all). The problem stems from these people. Ergo, get rid of these people. Those who buy are getting free game tokens with their purchases so they are not affected. Those who don't buy are paying modest sums to use the facilities, so they're fine. Those who will do neither give the store nothing and get in the way of the rest of us.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Azazelx wrote: Essentially, you boot my mates for not buying/paying and you'll find that I stop going there and spending my money. (FWIW, this was before online discounters, and my friends who didn't spend big or buy a lot were just careful with their money/didn't buy things on impulse/painted everything before buying new stuff/etc. They did buy locally, just not often at all, and when their armies for XYZ game were finished, they were pretty much finished.
Under my model, you can also get tokens for buying things. So if you are, as you say, buying stuff, you would never be affected by this. Only moochers are affected. Buyers don't pay. Non-buyers do. Those who are not willing to be either will go and drag down another shop.
£2-£3 for a game seems very reasonable. I'm lucky enough to have an 8'x4' table at home, but it's not always set up for wargaming (it serves double duty as my wife's costume cutting table).
Even if it was a dedicated wargaming table, though, it'd take me time to set up terrain (presumably already done in-store). Wear and tear on the terrain is another factor. So £2 seems like a bargain, £3 seems fair. This is bearing in mind I generally earn at least £20 an hour if I do paid work, so £2 is 6 minutes' worth of work, probably about as long as it takes me to set up terrain.
£2-£3 is what I pay to play at my Gaming Club. So if you're charging that, you better make sure that your store is as good as, if not better than, a club.
I might be persuaded to pay if the facilities were descent however I wouldn't think twice about buying online at that point. Since your already charging me to play there. More likely I would go somewhere else. This isn't a new idea in this area. Every store that tries it here goes out of business. As gamers we want as wide a player pool as possible so your not playing the same guy all the time. We go to which ever store offers that option.
Ian Sturrock wrote: This is bearing in mind I generally earn at least £20 an hour if I do paid work, so £2 is 6 minutes' worth of work, probably about as long as it takes me to set up terrain.
wowsmash wrote: I might be persuaded to pay if the facilities were descent however I wouldn't think twice about buying online at that point. Since your already charging me to play there. More likely I would go somewhere else.
As I pointed out earlier, under my model, by buying from the shop, you're getting play tokens already so you wouldn't have to pay. Assuming that you are, as you state, currently purchasing from that shop, then you wont be impacted by the change. In fact, you'll find your experience improved because those paying will result in better services and a lack of moochers will result in more availability.
Ian Sturrock wrote: This is bearing in mind I generally earn at least £20 an hour if I do paid work, so £2 is 6 minutes' worth of work, probably about as long as it takes me to set up terrain.
Teaching support?
Close... Visiting Lecturer work (actually £40/hour at the moment, but down to more like £20/hour when I start the new, proper Lecturer job in Jan).
wowsmash wrote: I might be persuaded to pay if the facilities were descent however I wouldn't think twice about buying online at that point. Since your already charging me to play there. More likely I would go somewhere else.
As I pointed out earlier, under my model, by buying from the shop, you're getting play tokens already so you wouldn't have to pay. Assuming that you are, as you state, currently purchasing from that shop, then you wont be impacted by the change. In fact, you'll find your experience improved because those paying will result in better services and a lack of moochers will result in more availability.
And if I don't need anything further for my money what do you propose. that I spend it just because?
wowsmash wrote: I might be persuaded to pay if the facilities were descent however I wouldn't think twice about buying online at that point. Since your already charging me to play there. More likely I would go somewhere else.
As I pointed out earlier, under my model, by buying from the shop, you're getting play tokens already so you wouldn't have to pay. Assuming that you are, as you state, currently purchasing from that shop, then you wont be impacted by the change. In fact, you'll find your experience improved because those paying will result in better services and a lack of moochers will result in more availability.
And if I don't need anything further for my money what do you propose. that I spend it just because?
Nope. At that point, if you've used up all the tokens from buying things, you pay a couple of £2-3 to use the table. If you haven't bought anything for a while, you've now transitioned to "moocher" status. The paid table time offsets this.
knas ser wrote: Nope. At that point, if you've used up all the tokens from buying things, you pay a couple of £2-3 to use the table.
You mean I go to the other store in town that doesn't charge for table space, which means now you have one less player on 40k night. And if a player who is currently building an army and buying lots of stuff decides to go with me because your weekly attendance is disappointing then you've lost a lot of money compared to just accepting that not everyone in your store is a direct source of profit.
knas ser wrote: Nope. At that point, if you've used up all the tokens from buying things, you pay a couple of £2-3 to use the table.
You mean I go to the other store in town that doesn't charge for table space, which means now you have one less player on 40k night. And if a player who is currently building an army and buying lots of stuff decides to go with me because your weekly attendance is disappointing then you've lost a lot of money compared to just accepting that not everyone in your store is a direct source of profit.
Yes, you might go to the other shop where you'll be fighting for space with all the other people who are there because they don't spend money and in a shop where the table is a burden rather than - if not a revenue stream - at least has its costs offset and therefore can be a better service. But you just said your friend is currently building an army and buying lots of stuff. So you've just lost your reason to go to the other store in the first place because your friend will have lots and lots of tokens.
As to my "weekly attendance being disappointing", that is supposition. Firstly, more table availability is a positive in and of itself, but really demand is probably high enough that it's fine. Tables are a finite resource which I see demand usually exceeding and actually one of the chief limiters for demand is the wait time, the randomness of whether or not you'll get a slot... paying makes it a better service inherently, by the aforementioned increase in resource and priority for the table due to the income, and because those who just mooch have gone away, making it easier to play. It actually becomes more appealing to me and I'm sure to many others.
Really, you're trying to create a non-existent scenario with your post - where you are spending money but are driven away from the shop. It doesn't matter if you are not buying anything that week but it's your friend. The next week it might be the other way around. The point is that you are spending money and are thus unaffected by the payment for tables non-buyers have to make. It doesn't work - there's no scenario where you're buying things and being driven away from the table. You're only driven away if you're not buying things / willing to pay a few quid for several hours use of the facilities. So why would the shop care?
You're about to argue why you wouldn't just stay at the other shop once you've gone over there in some dry spell when no-one you know or yourself have bought anything for a while but now suddenly want to. Well maybe you might. But that's fine because now the shops are no longer just competing on price (race to the bottom), but on quality. All else being equal, the fact that the table in the first shop is no longer such a financial burden, they can make it better. So maybe you want to come back to the first shop. Maybe knowing that the cost of the space and terrain is offset, they might go for two tables. Even better! If you make your facilities better and those facilities are free to all, then you may increase buying customers, but you will certainly increase moochers. Positives can be cancelled out by negatives. Therefore there is reduced incentive to improve the service. But with paid facilities, any improvements are an inducement to those paying / buying models, and doesn't increase moochers. Thus significantly greater motivation to improve the facilities.
You see? All else being equal, the shop where you get tokens for buying things or can pay for table time directly, will have better table facilities (size, space, terrain, availability). It's not just a matter of the money, it's the fact that improving it brings only the positives (paying people) without the negatives (moochers). So yes, you come back when you want to buy something because you get more value for it. As opposed to the shop which is moocher-heavy and which relies on your feeling of obligation from using their facilities sometimes.
Short answer - some people will leave and go to another shop, but these are the people the shop wants least (remember, if you or your friend are buying, you can play there) and it results in better services for the rest of us. I'm quite happy to pay a few quid for several hours on a table in the shop, if the quality is good. I'm sure very many are. You'd spend more than that on drinks if you were in a pub for four hours!
knas ser wrote: Nope. At that point, if you've used up all the tokens from buying things, you pay a couple of £2-3 to use the table.
You mean I go to the other store in town that doesn't charge for table space, which means now you have one less player on 40k night. And if a player who is currently building an army and buying lots of stuff decides to go with me because your weekly attendance is disappointing then you've lost a lot of money compared to just accepting that not everyone in your store is a direct source of profit.
Yes, you might go to the other shop where you'll be fighting for space with all the other people who are there because they don't spend money and in a shop where the table is a burden rather than - if not a revenue stream - at least has its costs offset and therefore can be a better service. But you just said your friend is currently building an army and buying lots of stuff. So you've just lost your reason to go to the other store in the first place because your friend will have lots and lots of tokens.
As to my "weekly attendance being disappointing", that is supposition. Firstly, more table availability is a positive in and of itself, but really demand is probably high enough that it's fine. Tables are a finite resource which I see demand usually exceeding and actually one of the chief limiters for demand is the wait time, the randomness of whether or not you'll get a slot... paying makes it a better service inherently, by the aforementioned increase in resource and priority for the table due to the income, and because those who just mooch have gone away, making it easier to play. It actually becomes more appealing to me and I'm sure to many others.
Really, you're trying to create a non-existent scenario with your post - where you are spending money but are driven away from the shop. It doesn't matter if you are not buying anything that week but it's your friend. The next week it might be the other way around. The point is that you are spending money and are thus unaffected by the payment for tables non-buyers have to make. It doesn't work - there's no scenario where you're buying things and being driven away from the table. You're only driven away if you're not buying things / willing to pay a few quid for several hours use of the facilities. So why would the shop care?
You're about to argue why you wouldn't just stay at the other shop once you've gone over there in some dry spell when no-one you know or yourself have bought anything for a while but now suddenly want to. Well maybe you might. But that's fine because now the shops are no longer just competing on price (race to the bottom), but on quality. All else being equal, the fact that the table in the first shop is no longer such a financial burden, they can make it better. So maybe you want to come back to the first shop. Maybe knowing that the cost of the space and terrain is offset, they might go for two tables. Even better! If you make your facilities better and those facilities are free to all, then you may increase buying customers, but you will certainly increase moochers. Positives can be cancelled out by negatives. Therefore there is reduced incentive to improve the service. But with paid facilities, any improvements are an inducement to those paying / buying models, and doesn't increase moochers. Thus significantly greater motivation to improve the facilities.
You see? All else being equal, the shop where you get tokens for buying things or can pay for table time directly, will have better table facilities (size, space, terrain, availability). It's not just a matter of the money, it's the fact that improving it brings only the positives (paying people) without the negatives (moochers). So yes, you come back when you want to buy something because you get more value for it. As opposed to the shop which is moocher-heavy and which relies on your feeling of obligation from using their facilities sometimes.
Short answer - some people will leave and go to another shop, but these are the people the shop wants least (remember, if you or your friend are buying, you can play there) and it results in better services for the rest of us. I'm quite happy to pay a few quid for several hours on a table in the shop, if the quality is good. I'm sure very many are. You'd spend more than that on drinks if you were in a pub for four hours!
Now hang on, who exactly do you think you are, coming on here, making sensible and reasoned arguments? You'll give us peninsula dwellers a bad name! Didn't you know we're all supposed to be sexist, GW hating, moustache twirling hyper manipulators? (All things I've been directly or indirectly accused of in my time here )
Seriously though, couldn't agree more, people who come into your shop are not customers until they spend money, although admittedly the onus is on the retailer to do everything they can to encourage this. I for one would have no problem paying to play in a well lit, well run, spacious store with nice terrain over being jammed into a corner on a 2'x4' being elbowed in the ear by over exuberant Yu Gi Oh players.
Of course, given two equally good spaces to play, one free and one chargeable, then it becomes a whole different ball game, but certainly in the UK, that would be such a rare occasion as to not be worth considering.
I have yet to see this well lit and great terrain store. Most shops I see are in out of the way places with little to know terrain that isn't even painted.
wowsmash wrote: I have yet to see this well lit and great terrain store. Most shops I see are in out of the way places with little to know terrain that isn't even painted.
In which case, they're going to struggle to justify the cost of using the facilities aren't they?
Although none are immediately on my doorstep (although my local club is exactly that, more space than we are ever likely to need, well lit and a huge amount of terrain, but admittedly that's a club, and I'm just mentioning it to pimp it out to anyone who might be reading) there are aeveral stores within an hour or so's travel which could be classed as such (and I'm the opposite end of the country from the lead belt)
knas ser wrote: But you just said your friend is currently building an army and buying lots of stuff. So you've just lost your reason to go to the other store in the first place because your friend will have lots and lots of tokens.
I didn't say they were a friend. Say you have an average of five people on 40k night, two of them are actively building an army, one buys some occasional paint, and the other two are "leeches". You charge for table space, and suddenly the leeches are gone and there's a good chance the occasional buyer is going to leave. Now you have two players with plenty of tokens, but only each other to play against. Meanwhile the other store in town has an extra 2-3 people every night because you sent all the "leeches" over there, so your two paying customers change stores to have a better community. Now instead of 2.5 customers and 2.5 "leeches" you have zero customers and zero leeches.
Tables are a finite resource which I see demand usually exceeding
Maybe this is just something weird about your area. Here there are plenty of tables available even on busy days (one store can easily run 10 games of miniatures and still have plenty of room left for MTG/RPGs/etc) and the finite resource is people to play against. I suppose your "pay for tables" plan could work in an area where there are only tiny stores with 1-2 tables available, but I can't imagine that being a typical situation.
You're only driven away if you're not buying things / willing to pay a few quid for several hours use of the facilities.
Or if you're buying stuff but all the "leeches" are gone so there are fewer people to play against than there are at the other nearby store that doesn't charge for table use. You have to stop looking at direct sales to each person and consider the value of having a store with an active community and lots of players, even if not all of those players are directly making you a profit.
You see? All else being equal, the shop where you get tokens for buying things or can pay for table time directly, will have better table facilities (size, space, terrain, availability).
Not necessarily. You're assuming that the pay-to-play store will be generous and invest in better tables instead of just keeping the extra profit, that pay-to-play makes enough money to make a meaningful upgrade to those tables, that the limiting factor on table quality is cost rather than things like painting skill, and that the free-to-play store doesn't make similar upgrades.
You're assumption appears to be that there is always more tables than gamers, and that the leeches moving to another store improves the community rather than making it harder to get a table.
knas ser has said that the problem with gaming at their store is that there are more gamers than tables so getting a game (regardless of opponent) isn't guaranteed, and that paying a small amount is worth it to secure a table.
I'm sure both sorts of stores exist, and that in the abundant table situation paying for a table might not work, but in my experience most gaming stores in the UK (bar a couple of big centres like Warhammer World*) tend to only have a few tables and there's often a waiting list.
*Even Warhammer World has a finite selection of themed tables (maybe 10) with the rest being a RoB board with a couple of buildings, and recommends booking in advance to get a table you want, so they must suffer the occasional more gamers than tables situation.
As I have been drawing up a business plan to open up a games store, this discussion is very interesting to me. In my opinion, tolerating "mooches" seems to be a pill that owners just have to swallow.
Banning people from the store just seems like bad business that only creates a negative environment. People come to a store to have a variety of opponents, and even if a few people aren't supporting the local, at least they are adding to the army pool. But then again. How would I deal with "TFG"? Because you know there is always at least one.
As for the pay to play tables, I think it would only work in areas where the number of gamers far exceeds the number of tables.
The unfortunate truth for many FLGS is that their sales depend on the loyalty of their bases to buy local instead of going online. When people start shelling out money for tables, even if it is only a few bucks, the "social contract" is fulfilled, and the guilt of buying online is lessened. Now the owner has traded a possible $30 sale for a $5 sale.
I can see a happy middle ground of booking tables however. All Tables are free unless some one reserves one for a fee. Owner leaves a note on the table that says this table is reserved from 12 to 3. You can play on it but at 12 you gotta pack it up. This way you keep the free players and make players who are willing to spend $10 to assure them a spot happy. Heck, if your tables are good enough maybe reserving tables would make pay to play an unintended byproduct.
Strombones wrote: As I have been drawing up a business plan to open up a games store, this discussion is very interesting to me. In my opinion, tolerating "mooches" seems to be a pill that owners just have to swallow.
Banning people from the store just seems like bad business that only creates a negative environment. People come to a store to have a variety of opponents, and even if a few people aren't supporting the local, at least they are adding to the army pool. But then again. How would I deal with "TFG"? Because you know there is always at least one.
As for the pay to play tables, I think it would only work in areas where the number of gamers far exceeds the number of tables.
The unfortunate truth for many FLGS is that their sales depend on the loyalty of their bases to buy local instead of going online. When people start shelling out money for tables, even if it is only a few bucks, the "social contract" is fulfilled, and the guilt of buying online is lessened. Now the owner has traded a possible $30 sale for a $5 sale.
I can see a happy middle ground of booking tables however. All Tables are free unless some one reserves one for a fee. Owner leaves a note on the table that says this table is reserved from 12 to 3. You can play on it but at 12 you gotta pack it up. This way you keep the free players and make players who are willing to spend $10 to assure them a spot happy. Heck, if your tables are good enough maybe reserving tables would make pay to play an unintended byproduct.
It mainly comes down to expectation. Clearly some people expect to get free use of store facilities. There especially seems to be this presumption in the USA with some people feeling actively resentful at not being given these things to the extent that some will say: "I'm going to buy elsewhere because I wasn't given this". Your chief problem, as for most retail these days other than very cheap goods or clothes where checking them out in person is wanted, is that online is cheaper. That's the real problem.
How much space do you have / will you have? Do you know that yet? If you have a lot of space, enough for a few tables, you can run a shop and gaming club. If prices are low and there's a clear demarcation of club/shop boundary, then it should serve to counter the "I was cheated" mentality of some people. I.e. if they walk into a shop and see a table in it and just expect to game away, no purchase, nothing, then they'll turn on you like a dog when you say: "it costs X to use that". If you have the shop at the front and then a club area behind that with, e.g. three nice tables in it, or in a separate room, then people see that it's a separate paid facility. Really there's almost nothing you can do to completely deal with the sense of entitlement of the American Consumer, but something like this might help. You can have a booking slots table on the wall behind your counter and make sure that people know tables need to be booked and that someone who has booked takes precedence. You can have "free membership" for the club and everyone gets "three free tokens" when they join. So people get to try it out. If anyone just wanders right through the shop and starts setting up, just politely inform them that the club is separate to the shop and they need to join, which will just take a minute. The more you make the club appealing in its own right, the more you (a) find people willing to pay for it and (b) challenge people who think it should be free to them because you should be grateful they may one day buy a blister pack from you. Expectations, expectations, expectations. Set them.
Face facts, you're setting up a business where people buy non-expiring goods. I still have Striking Scorpions that I bought over twenty years ago. They're still fine to play with. You're going to have a lot of people who have everything they need. What a lot of people don't have, is space to play, with nice terrain, without people telling them to get off the dining room table. So if you are able to invest a little up front and get two to three tables, set up a booking system, then I believe you will be able to charge very modest fees for it. Seriously, with free tokens, anyone who actually is buying from you, or who has friends who are buying from you, will have the tokens they need to pay.
Because it all goes back to that thing I said at the start - buying online is cheaper. You need to counter that with something. Social obligation might have worked twenty years ago, but I don't think I'm being cynical in saying that huge numbers of people today will still use your facilities and still buy online. Maybe they buy a few small things and get the expensive things online where the discount is too lovely for them to pass up. Trust me - people are biased. Their perception of one side of a social contract is very seldom the perception from the other side. So what can you offer as an incentive to buy in your store? Tokens for table use. If they're thinking about buying that pack of Dire Avengers and they know they want to game later and it costs £2 to book a table, they'll save themselves £2 and buy the Dire Avengers. And that gain there offsets the money they'd save from online.
What are the big negatives to public free tables from a user's point of view? Not knowing if it will be free, low-quality, people already on there dawdling and just filling in time when you want to really get a game in. Which of these do paid service solve? All of them. You aren't going to invest in quality tables, terrain or staying open later into the evening if all it's doing is encouraging people to hang around your store because they bought a blister pack last month and think the table has no value because it is free. You will if you know that it's bringing money into your store.
The £2 per booking is not there to make you money from renting tables. It's nice that it may actually cover your costs for lighting and space, but what it's really there is to put a monetary value on the table for the customer so that when they buy a Wraith Knight and have enough tokens for five four hour games, they know they're getting something really worth something.
The real question is - "who are my customers?" If I was your customer and you had good facilities like an actual gaming club, I would cheerfully pay £2 to use those facilities for a game. You've got the space, the terrain and £2 would buy me one drink in a pub. Or one-quarter of a two-hour movie. I don't care. I have a job. My free time is more valuable to me than money. Make my free time better, you can have some of my money.
Now if there is someone across the street from you offering exactly the same service for nothing, then maybe I'll go there (though honestly, I'd rather pay if it means certainty and no waiting around), but the point is that I care more about quality than cost. WH40K / WFB is an expensive hobby. If the service is the same, then I'll go with cheaper. But the moment your quality is better, I'll come to you even at a modest cost. Especially as given my buying of miniatures that cost is probably already paid by the free tokens. I am your dream customer. I am the sort of person who will say: "I want a Wraith Knight so I will buy one". Okay, I'm not actually your dream customer - that is the sort of idiot who goes: "I would like to buy that complete Ultramarines Chapter for £7,500, please". But then that customer has probably gone online already. Anyway, point is, you want me in your store. If you can build an actual game's club worth coming to, then you'll get me there. Ditto for many other people. We want good facilities. Compete on that and so long as you set expectations from the start, we'll pay or buy to use them.
Even highlight those expectations in the name at the start - call your club and your shop slightly different names.
Make your club the place people want to game and you have the means to compete with online. Who is going to save themself $10 online when they get three table bookings worth $12 with the same purchase in your store.
You just need to make your facilities a little bit better - some tea / coffee facilities, a vending machine, space around the tables and more surety that people can actually get a table without moochers lounging around on it, and challenge expectations of entitlement in various subtle ways. It can be done and if you can do it, you stand a much better chance of having a long-term business being attached to a well-liked gaming club, than giving a free table in your shop to people with nothing else to do in the hopes they might buy enough to offset the people they drive away.
You asked how you would deal with "that guy". Well I have found that the answer to that to be that the best way to deal with "That guy", is "in advance".
Or alternatively you could read what mikhaila, that runs two successful miniature stores, has to say about the matter:
mikhaila wrote: Both my stores are free to play at.
(Rent is not cheap at either, at 7000.00 and 9000.00 per month. )
Charging for table space would lose money.
I do mentoring for new store owners as part of a website set up by GAMA, and am very convinced that charging customers to play at your store is bad for business. It puts a barrier between the customer and the store, and the store will get far more sales from the players if they are in the store longer. It works for both sides. Having to collect fees puts the store in an adversarial relationship where you have to act as a tax collector and chase people down.
If a store is having a problem with players who do not support the store tying up the tables, there are other ways to deal with that. I know of a couple of stores that had problems with Yugioh players coming in and buying nothing but tying up the tables 5 nights a week. It was an easy solution: Tell them NO. Ask them to leave. Explain that the tables are not for yugioh, they are for Warhammer, events, or other things the store intends them to be used for.
Some store owners feel this is confrontational, and they don't like confrontation. So they hesitate to confront people causing problems. This results in turning over control of your store to those non customers. Never a good thing. It can lead to things getting so bad that they feel they need some rule to fix things, and thus pay to play pops up.
I don't think it works, as i said above. At best you drive off the problem along with a lot of good customers. At worse the problem people pat a measly couple of bucks to rent tables, buy nothing, and feel justified now to not buy anything, and they are playing by your rules.
Lutharr101 wrote: Wouldnt care to. Ive a proper job that earns real money. Why would i wanna waste my time with that crap. Especially one that has people who want gak for free.
Of course you don't want to work in retail, no sane person would want to if they have better opportunities available. But that doesn't change your ignorance of how retail works in this situation. Let's make it nice and simple:
A is in your store for gaming, but does not buy anything. However, A might buy something in the future because they enjoy the gaming space but just don't have any thing to buy right now. Or A might ignore you and buy from that online discount store, but because A plays every week B also comes in to play and buys stuff. If you drive A away because you're only looking at their immediate purchases then you give up those potential future purchases, and B stays home and plays video games instead of buying something from you. Just like GW you've failed to understand the concept of taking a loss on one thing so that you can get better profits elsewhere.
so in essence your saying stores should pay for people to just hang around incase they may buy something at a later date? I dont see this trend in other retail stores where they offer free stuff so why are hobbystores any different.
Sure, 'just in case they may buy something later". And if I do my job right, they always will be buying something later. What gamer buys something everytime they come into a store? What type of retail expects you to?
The effect of being in a store a lot is that the player spends more money in the store. Or has other people buy things from the store for him. There is a very direct relationship between time in the store and money spent. The example given above for customers A and B is very accurate. (as is the statement pertaining to the sanity of opening a game store.).
I think a big difference with the US as opposed to the UK, is that there is a particularly limited gaming club scene in the States, so a feeling of entitlement almost is justified, as kids, parents, whatever, running around and actually wanting to use your dining room table for... dining rather than toy soldiers, I can imagine that playing in a store is almost a requirement to actually take part in the whole hobby.
Strombones wrote: Yikes. You guys don't have very high opinions of Americans.
I think it is more of a skewed perception of what does/does not work for gaming here in the US. It is very much a regional thing in terms of whether a pay to play or 100% open gaming scene is going to function.
A lot of that can be traced to what kind of market and the saturation of shops a locality has along with the distance of a shop related to public transit, universities, housing, etc.
To use an example: If you have a really good shop readily accessible with all kinds of games being hosted at that location and a large amount of the various lines readily available at the shop on game days? That shop tends to do well enough to get away with no "pay to play", even if some of the gamers shop primarily online instead of in the store. There might be a sense among the gamers present that if they buy something that day they are "paying in" to the shop's community or it might just be the gamer deciding they need X after losing or need more Y after winning with it.
I'm not an expert though and I have not exactly tried to do a study on the situation so take what I say with a pinch of salt, but really what works for one shop and one locality might not work for you in your locality. Take the foundations of what Mikhaila has said to heart and gauge out the community before you open your doors though.
Strombones wrote: Yikes. You guys don't have very high opinions of Americans.
It has nothing to do with being Americans, it has to do that gaming is FLGS-centric in the US where other places it is club-based. When you and 10 friends have to organize a location at a church or a private hall and rent the space, you appreciate it more because you realize the space has to be secured and paid for. When you simply "have it" and it has always been this way, you become entitled to it and feel it is something you deserve for purchasing items. When you no longer have it, you feel like so etching was taken from you. Others never had it and see the value and appreciate it when they finally do, hence why they realize why they should pay where you play.
But there are those who don't realize a good thing when they have it and crush FLGS under being a mooch and internet dis counters and get the war gamers displaced in the name of MTG.
I was really responding to the "nothing you can do to completely deal with the sense of entitlement of the American consumer remark" in the previous post. It just seemed to be a bit of a jab that's all. I assure you all that my friends and I are not entitled and have gone to great lengths to support local hobby shops.
You guys bring up great points though. The great irony of all this is that the community here has never played on anything but styrofoam and coke bottle terrain! They might look at a nice board and simply say "meh".
Kanluwen's observation that it differs between regions is most likely correct. Im sure that population density has an effect as well. The more people, the more likely pay to play is acceptable.
And nkelsch you are right about gamers not realizing what they have. This make me wonder if me starting a shop and having to remind people that doing business with me despite higher costs is in their interest in the long run is really a solid business plan.
Strombones wrote: Kanluwen's observation that it differs between regions is most likely correct. Im sure that population density has an effect as well. The more people, the more likely pay to play is acceptable.
IMO it's probably the opposite, as long as you aren't in a country where GW has driven the independent stores out of business. Places with high population density are likely to have multiple game stores within reasonable driving distance, so any store that starts charging for table space is just going to send a bunch of customers over to their competition. But if you're in an area with low population density and you're the only option in a 50-mile radius those unhappy players have nowhere else to go.
If you want a US-specific factor here it probably has something to do with driving habits. In the US, unless you live in the middle of a big city, it's taken for granted that you have a car and you're willing to drive 15-30 minutes to get to a store because everything is so spread out geographically. If a store wants to charge me $5 to use a table I'd rather just spend $3 more in gas and go to a different store. I can afford to be "entitled" about it because my "where will I play" radius is almost guaranteed to be long enough to find a store that will offer free gaming space. So why would I want to support a store that doesn't?
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knas ser wrote: The more you make the club appealing in its own right, the more you (a) find people willing to pay for it and (b) challenge people who think it should be free to them because you should be grateful they may one day buy a blister pack from you. Expectations, expectations, expectations. Set them.
Except none of this is making the club more appealing, it's just making your store look less appealing. If you want me to sign up for a club and pay to reserve a table I'll just take my money over to your competition where they've got a dozen free tables waiting for me to use them. And I probably won't be the only person doing that, so your competition will have a busier and more appealing community, making your club membership even less appealing. And I don't think you're going to run a profitable business off selling club memberships while all the other sales go to someone else.
So if you are able to invest a little up front and get two to three tables, set up a booking system, then I believe you will be able to charge very modest fees for it.
2-3 tables? Forget it. If you don't have 10+ tables with good terrain you're not even matching the stores with free gaming space.
If they're thinking about buying that pack of Dire Avengers and they know they want to game later and it costs £2 to book a table, they'll save themselves £2 and buy the Dire Avengers.
No they won't, because they can save more than £2 by buying them online. And then they can save even more money by playing at a different store that doesn't charge £2 to use a table. If you want to survive as a physical store you don't compete on price, you compete on convenience. It's nice if people give you charity donations and buy in your store to support where they play, but the thing that's most likely to get me to buy something is that it's sitting there on your shelf right now instead of arriving a week later once the online store gets around to shipping it.
You aren't going to invest in quality tables, terrain or staying open later into the evening if all it's doing is encouraging people to hang around your store because they bought a blister pack last month and think the table has no value because it is free.
Of course you'll make that investment, because your competition is making that investment and if you don't all your players are going to go elsewhere.
The £2 per booking is not there to make you money from renting tables. It's nice that it may actually cover your costs for lighting and space, but what it's really there is to put a monetary value on the table for the customer so that when they buy a Wraith Knight and have enough tokens for five four hour games, they know they're getting something really worth something.
Until they do the math and realize that you gave them £10 worth of gaming (or £0 worth if you have competition in the area), so it's cheaper to buy online and just pay the £10 to use your table.
And if you want to talk about perceptions, now you're dealing with the perception that you're a greedy who charges for table space just to prove a point, even when it isn't paying your bills. Good luck keeping customer loyalty with that attitude.
Who is going to save themself $10 online when they get three table bookings worth $12 with the same purchase in your store.
You're making the assumption that people value your table bookings at $12. If the slightly better terrain compared to the free-table store is worth $5 to me then you're not giving me a very good deal, especially when I'm probably saving more than $12 by buying online.
You just need to make your facilities a little bit better - some tea / coffee facilities, a vending machine, space around the tables and more surety that people can actually get a table without moochers lounging around on it, and challenge expectations of entitlement in various subtle ways.
These are things that stores with free gaming space already offer.
Must be nice to drive 5 minutes farther to a place with gaming. Considering wargaming doesn't keep the lights on and is a drain on almost every store, often the issue is not that there is another store near by, it is that MtG is more valuable to stores and get prime time like weekends. So that store which doesn't charge to play probably also only has wargaming on Tuesdays and Thursdays and possibly a weekend tourney every 2 months. Stores cater to who keeps the lights on and that is not war gamers, especially when they buy online, won't pay to play and feel buying a snickers bar as legitimate support.
nkelsch wrote: Considering wargaming doesn't keep the lights on and is a drain on almost every store
Which is hilarious to me. I can look at the shelves and see a rack full of paper-thin books that all cost $50 each, a single model on the top shelf for $160 (just one model!), not counting all the other boxes with price tags almost as absurd, and mandatory purchases just to get started for either game that are about $100 each (which as we all know is merely a drop in the bucket, and comparable to a single Magic booster pack in terms of how ready you are to actually start playing), and yet all of this still isn't profitable, even when you're throwing expensive brushes and paints on top of that, and apparently also charging those guys $12 a day just to set foot in your fething store, which is a "tax" other gamers get to happily avoid.
And you guys are all blaming the customer for being "entitiled"? If that's the case then it isn't a problem with wargamers specifically, because I've seen countless Magic players walk into the store (the ones who are keeping your lights on, who don't get treated like second-class citizens), show a little interest in the wall full of GW product, thinking it looks cool and wondering how the game works, and then laugh and walk away when they notice the $160 tank sitting on the top shelf, never to speak of the game again. The same people who, over time, will spend many more times that amount on booster boxes, fat packs, and single cards, while the $160 tank still sits up there collecting dust.
Personally I think it's obvious why wargames aren't profitable, but no one wants to acknowledge that fact and they even groan every time it's brought up.
You are quite right, Sid. The biggest obstacle to miniature wargaming as opposed to CCGs is the lack of good spontaneous purchases. In the GW world at least, there is little I can buy without planning. I am no where near as likely to say, "what the heck," and pick up a $30-$50 box. The Magic player on the other hand, walks in, doesn't see much new, but still walks up to the counter on a whim and buys a couple boosters at $4 each.
Now, a couple of companies can still pull off the impulse purchase. Reaper minis, particularly Bones, are mostly $10 or less (well into my impulse purchase level) and even X-wing boosters are only in the $15 range. Most systems have a few items like this. Back in the days of blisters GW had items in this category. No more. Now it's minimum $20, and more likely $30 to pick up even a minimal character model. This means the GW focused store sees few MWG impulse buys.
That brings us around again to the original topic. No one is going to buy a $30-$60 (or more) kit every week when they come in to game. The death of the weekly impulse purchase items has led to the "entitled" gamers who end up playing but not purchasing. Give them something to buy, and I'll bet they will.
So if you are able to invest a little up front and get two to three tables, set up a booking system, then I believe you will be able to charge very modest fees for it.
2-3 tables? Forget it. If you don't have 10+ tables with good terrain you're not even matching the stores with free gaming space.
You should realize that your apparent experience (and opinion) is *NOT* universal. Some areas are lucky to have a single store within an acceptable driving distance that has 2-3 tables with *some* terrain. I drive 25 miles to preferentially go to the type of store you're using as the baseline minimum acceptable store.
I just don't get why Gaming Clubs are so hard to set up in America? My home town had a small gaming club set up in the 'volunteer' rooms every Sunday that shared space between RPG's, historicals, board and wargaming. There was only about 40-60k people in the area.
My current club is a Monday night at a Cricket club, there's another nearby that's Wednesdays at a Deaf Association. And yet another that's in a Community Hall. They service a town of about 80k people.
And that's not including the dedicated actual store that does Magic events.
They're not any harder to set up in the US but rather the motivation isn't here for the most part. There is a bigger expectation here of gaming in stores rather than temporary club locations. People here are complaining about the possibility of paying to play in a location that also offers ready access to gaming supplies and purchases with no effort on their part to maintain... and you're surprised that they're not as interested in setting up a gaming club that they have to do all the work with in setting up/paying/organizing/etc and that doesn't offer the same purchase amenities as a store? The latter is alot more effort for less gain. If there truly is no other choice (as in no stores) then people can and do set up clubs but it's certainly not the preferred option in most cases.
Kyrolon wrote: You are quite right, Sid. The biggest obstacle to miniature wargaming as opposed to CCGs is the lack of good spontaneous purchases. In the GW world at least, there is little I can buy without planning. I am no where near as likely to say, "what the heck," and pick up a $30-$50 box. The Magic player on the other hand, walks in, doesn't see much new, but still walks up to the counter on a whim and buys a couple boosters at $4 each.
Now, a couple of companies can still pull off the impulse purchase. Reaper minis, particularly Bones, are mostly $10 or less (well into my impulse purchase level) and even X-wing boosters are only in the $15 range. Most systems have a few items like this. Back in the days of blisters GW had items in this category. No more. Now it's minimum $20, and more likely $30 to pick up even a minimal character model. This means the GW focused store sees few MWG impulse buys.
That brings us around again to the original topic. No one is going to buy a $30-$60 (or more) kit every week when they come in to game. The death of the weekly impulse purchase items has led to the "entitled" gamers who end up playing but not purchasing. Give them something to buy, and I'll bet they will.
Unfortunately many of the miniature games with potential spontaneous purchases do not sell well. Dust is such a game. You can buy a box of infantry for 15 bucks. Moreover, the models are preassembled and preprimed, so you can put them on the table right out of the box. Right now, it looks like it will go the way of AT-43 (its older brother)
Back to the topic of paying for a table, many stores have difficulty establishing a gaming community. Even when a community is established, people grow up or leave, so new members are needed to offset loses. Pay to play, just makes it that much harder. The only instance in which I think that pay to play would work is a tournament with prizes.
Compel wrote: I just don't get why Gaming Clubs are so hard to set up in America?
Because there's no need for them. Stores usually have plenty of gaming space already, so why invest the extra effort to build something that already exists? Also, we don't suffer from the same GW dominance that exists elsewhere, so there isn't the same need to create your own gaming space just so you can use non-GW stuff.
nkelsch wrote: Must be nice to drive 5 minutes farther to a place with gaming. Considering wargaming doesn't keep the lights on and is a drain on almost every store, often the issue is not that there is another store near by, it is that MtG is more valuable to stores and get prime time like weekends. So that store which doesn't charge to play probably also only has wargaming on Tuesdays and Thursdays and possibly a weekend tourney every 2 months. Stores cater to who keeps the lights on and that is not war gamers, especially when they buy online, won't pay to play and feel buying a snickers bar as legitimate support.
IMO this isn't a problem. The stores in my area have plenty of gaming space to host MTG and wargaming at the same time, and I actually prefer weekday evening gaming over weekends.
And again you're making the mistake of talking about "legitimate support" as if buying something is a charity donation you're obligated to make. Why not instead ask why the store is doing such a bad job of convincing people to buy something on its own merits?
Compel wrote: I just don't get why Gaming Clubs are so hard to set up in America?
Because there's no need for them. Stores usually have plenty of gaming space already, so why invest the extra effort to build something that already exists? Also, we don't suffer from the same GW dominance that exists elsewhere, so there isn't the same need to create your own gaming space just so you can use non-GW stuff.
nkelsch wrote: Must be nice to drive 5 minutes farther to a place with gaming. Considering wargaming doesn't keep the lights on and is a drain on almost every store, often the issue is not that there is another store near by, it is that MtG is more valuable to stores and get prime time like weekends. So that store which doesn't charge to play probably also only has wargaming on Tuesdays and Thursdays and possibly a weekend tourney every 2 months. Stores cater to who keeps the lights on and that is not war gamers, especially when they buy online, won't pay to play and feel buying a snickers bar as legitimate support.
IMO this isn't a problem. The stores in my area have plenty of gaming space to host MTG and wargaming at the same time, and I actually prefer weekday evening gaming over weekends.
And again you're making the mistake of talking about "legitimate support" as if buying something is a charity donation you're obligated to make. Why not instead ask why the store is doing such a bad job of convincing people to buy something on its own merits?
There is no obligation to buy in order to play. You could have the best store ever, and if people are entitled to free gaming and bottom dollar purchasing, they will play for free and never shop there.
There is nothing a store can do to change someone's opinion if they are unreasonable entitled customers.
This is the same as people who bring their lunch to cafés with patios and then want to sit outside and use the patio without patronizing the restaurant providing the space. Can you get away with it? Maybe, do you ruin it for everyone else? Yes. It isn't a charity, it is not being a dishonest disgusting mooch, like stealing sodas from fast food restaurants or taking up table space at a bar with music and drinking water and bread so you can hear the music but not buy any food or tip your waiter.
The store provides a service, the service is good, I patronize the store. If you can't afford to tip 20% you don't go out to eat. If you can't afford to pay where you play, you don't game in their store.
Just because there are horrible selfish people who abuse the system doesn't mean I am going to agree that they are correct in saying "it isn't my fault, they need to do more." At some point customers cross lines, and become unreasonable, and those people need to be thrown out. If is eye a customer abusing a retailer, I will all them on it because the truth is their actions take money out of my pocket and impact me. I will say and do what a store wishes they could if the situation arises.
If you are gaming for free in a FLGS and not purchasing there, you are a bad person and are dishonest and playing on my dime. You should be removed if you make a pattern of it.
nkelsch wrote: If you are gaming for free in a FLGS and not purchasing there, you are a bad person and are dishonest and playing on my dime. You should be removed if you make a pattern of it.
And, as I've already explained, you're ignoring the indirect benefits of having those "leeches" around. Player A might never buy anything from a store, but because player A (and people like A) play at that store there are always plenty of people on miniatures night. So then when player B, who likes to buy where they play, is getting into the game they come to your store and buy stuff. But if you kicked the "leeches" out they'd just go somewhere else and give that store a thriving community, so player B would follow and give their money to your competition.
nkelsch wrote: If you are gaming for free in a FLGS and not purchasing there, you are a bad person and are dishonest and playing on my dime. You should be removed if you make a pattern of it.
And, as I've already explained, you're ignoring the indirect benefits of having those "leeches" around. Player A might never buy anything from a store, but because player A (and people like A) play at that store there are always plenty of people on miniatures night. So then when player B, who likes to buy where they play, is getting into the game they come to your store and buy stuff. But if you kicked the "leeches" out they'd just go somewhere else and give that store a thriving community, so player B would follow and give their money to your competition.
that leech is still a terrible human being. Claiming that "I might bring customers" doesn't justify harming an establishment, both in general existence or directly by burdening a store and taking space away from paying customers.
You can have a thriving community who is active, and if none of them pay where they play, the. Your store goes under regardless how thriving the community. I have seen it multiple times, and when you get a batch of entitled gamers,they spread like locusts.
Your so-called helpful mooch scenario often plays out in such a way where they are not just mooching, but driving sales away from your store, because helping people get more models for cheaper s good for them right? So if you can buy 30% off from online and still play for free! then I as a terrible mooch win!as I have more models to play against! especially since I have zero investment in the success of the store and see no value in promoting them.
Your excuses are just that, and don't make it "ok". Terrible entitled people harm establishments and sometimes need to be removed. Real customers are often very happy when rude non-customers are expelled.
So, nkelsch, how do you reconcile your idea of "mooches" with the experiences of some of the more successful FLGS owners that post here?
Mikhaila in particular seems to have few problems with open gaming spaces. My own FLGS does everything they can to get players in, even asking our group to come there to play even though they know we own everything we need for Flames of War. Why? Because we play with fully painted forces on nice terrain (which we bring) and allow others to join in. Frequently they walk over to the shelf and buy something. Are we Mooches? Derelicts? Do tell me how.
nkelsch wrote: that leech is still a terrible human being. Claiming that "I might bring customers" doesn't justify harming an establishment, both in general existence or directly by burdening a store and taking space away from paying customers.
I think you're making a pretty big assumption about table space there. In my experience table space is easily available and the hard part is finding other players to use it with. If you drive away the "leeches" you don't fix a problem with long waits for tables, you just have even more empty tables and people playing somewhere else.
You can have a thriving community who is active, and if none of them pay where they play, the. Your store goes under regardless how thriving the community. I have seen it multiple times, and when you get a batch of entitled gamers,they spread like locusts.
First of all, you're assuming that nobody in the group is buying, rather than some people buying and some not. Second, even if nobody is buying anything you certainly aren't fixing the problem by charging for table space. You might drive away the "leeches", but driving them away doesn't magically make paying customers appear to replace them.
Your so-called helpful mooch scenario often plays out in such a way where they are not just mooching, but driving sales away from your store, because helping people get more models for cheaper s good for them right? So if you can buy 30% off from online and still play for free! then I as a terrible mooch win!as I have more models to play against! especially since I have zero investment in the success of the store and see no value in promoting them.
So now you're betting your profits on the assumption that the extra sales you get from people not knowing how to buy online are enough to make up for the lost sales when people leave your store entirely. And when you make this bet don't forget that the people most likely to be unaware of online sales are the new players who aren't a very good foundation for a gaming community.
Real customers are often very happy when rude non-customers are expelled.
Except we aren't talking about rude non-customers, we're talking about people who aren't profitable. They might be perfectly nice to the other players, in which case expelling them just hurts the community and has the potential to drive paying customers away as well.
Compel wrote: I just don't get why Gaming Clubs are so hard to set up in America?
Because there's no need for them. Stores usually have plenty of gaming space already, so why invest the extra effort to build something that already exists? Also, we don't suffer from the same GW dominance that exists elsewhere, so there isn't the same need to create your own gaming space just so you can use non-GW stuff.
nkelsch wrote: Must be nice to drive 5 minutes farther to a place with gaming. Considering wargaming doesn't keep the lights on and is a drain on almost every store, often the issue is not that there is another store near by, it is that MtG is more valuable to stores and get prime time like weekends. So that store which doesn't charge to play probably also only has wargaming on Tuesdays and Thursdays and possibly a weekend tourney every 2 months. Stores cater to who keeps the lights on and that is not war gamers, especially when they buy online, won't pay to play and feel buying a snickers bar as legitimate support.
IMO this isn't a problem. The stores in my area have plenty of gaming space to host MTG and wargaming at the same time, and I actually prefer weekday evening gaming over weekends.
And again you're making the mistake of talking about "legitimate support" as if buying something is a charity donation you're obligated to make. Why not instead ask why the store is doing such a bad job of convincing people to buy something on its own merits?
There is no obligation to buy in order to play. You could have the best store ever, and if people are entitled to free gaming and bottom dollar purchasing, they will play for free and never shop there.
There is nothing a store can do to change someone's opinion if they are unreasonable entitled customers.
This is the same as people who bring their lunch to cafés with patios and then want to sit outside and use the patio without patronizing the restaurant providing the space. Can you get away with it? Maybe, do you ruin it for everyone else? Yes. It isn't a charity, it is not being a dishonest disgusting mooch, like stealing sodas from fast food restaurants or taking up table space at a bar with music and drinking water and bread so you can hear the music but not buy any food or tip your waiter.
The store provides a service, the service is good, I patronize the store. If you can't afford to tip 20% you don't go out to eat. If you can't afford to pay where you play, you don't game in their store.
Just because there are horrible selfish people who abuse the system doesn't mean I am going to agree that they are correct in saying "it isn't my fault, they need to do more." At some point customers cross lines, and become unreasonable, and those people need to be thrown out. If is eye a customer abusing a retailer, I will all them on it because the truth is their actions take money out of my pocket and impact me. I will say and do what a store wishes they could if the situation arises.
If you are gaming for free in a FLGS and not purchasing there, you are a bad person and are dishonest and playing on my dime. You should be removed if you make a pattern of it.
Ahh, a capitalist I see. Listen, there is more to being an FLGS than just making money off of every customer that comes in every time he does so. That's what GW stores do and they aren't exactly popular for it. Stores need a community around them to thrive since they are selling a social experience basically. Restaurants are selling food so they legitimately have a reason not to want people to bring their own food.
To elaborate more on my point, if you want to sell a social experience you need to be supportive of it. Those "mooches" you call them? They are there playing the game you want to sell people on. When potential customers see them play they will want to come back to play them with the product they bought. And you know what happens when they come back and play? They buy some more. If no one is playing your game then you might as well just get rid of your tables and just be a regular store.
Now, if the store is short on table space then I understand a P2P model because it makes sure that people who support your store get rewarded for it. But if there is space a-plenty then you are only hurting your own sales by making your customers pay for whats freely available.
Technically none of us are profitable. That's the message I'm getting here, anyway. You can spend literally hundreds of dollars on mostly wargaming products over the course of several months (like I apparently do, with our store's new loyalty program we get a $10 coupon for every $100 we spend, and I've earned a lot of $10 coupons in the roughly 5-6 months it's been active), and all your money means jack gak to the store because you're still outspent by all the card gamers. nkelsch is saying wargamers aren't profitable enough period, moochers or not.
If you don't switch to Magic you're still killing your store.
Yeah but I find it (at least in my area) it doesn't hurt the store by having wargames there since both can play at the same time without magic players being turned away. How profitable are other wargames (BA/FoW etc)? Because at my store BA is seeing a rise in popularity.
gaming tables aint some god given right. Think people need to realise that when they make their purchase there is nothing on their recipt that states that you now get to make demands (other than the product the sold you works).
Im loving the fact people are making assumptions about this that and the other, then freak out when the other party makes an assumption. How about people deal with facts rather than what they just made up to fit in with their view.
Our local club charges for tables and sells product. they are doing well. Some dont and are doing well. So i think its fair to say both have their place and you have to see whats best for your own shop
Lutharr101 wrote: gaming tables aint some god given right. Think people need to realise that when they make their purchase there is nothing on their recipt that states that you now get to make demands (other than the product the sold you works).
You've got that the wrong way around, I am under no obligation to buy from a local store, I owe them nothing and there is no reason I should buy at 10% off rather than 25% off online.
If they have gaming space then suddenly there is an incentive to go there rather than buying online, but if I have to pay to use the tables then why should I feel bad buying online then paying to play? I'm sure the store doesn't want it that way and will lose money if people do that but THEY are the ones creating that arrangement by making people pay to play.
It's all well and good to say we are entitled for wanting free table space but there is no ing way a store is entitled to my business if it can't provide services or prices equal to or better than the internet or other stores.
Lutharr101 wrote: gaming tables aint some god given right. Think people need to realise that when they make their purchase there is nothing on their recipt that states that you now get to make demands (other than the product the sold you works).
Likewise, the store doesn't have a god-given right to have me buy stuff from them. If they want to charge for table space then I have every right to consider that poor service and take my money to their competition.
Sidstyler wrote: If you don't switch to Magic you're still killing your store.
This raises a pretty good point: unlike GW stores most FLGS sell more than just miniatures. So a player might play every week and not ever buy anything for 40k, but they like the community at the store and keep coming back. So when that player buys the nice profitable MTG cards they're doing it at "their" store and not elsewhere. Now if you declare that player to be an unprofitable leech and drive them away they'll be over at some other store when they decide to get back into MTG and start buying the most profitable items in the store. Then of course there's the other players you've driven away because you're shrinking the pool of miniatures players, and those other players might also decide to buy other stuff.
As a certain successful store owner said, the longer a person is in your store the more likely it is that they will buy something.
jonolikespie wrote: If they have gaming space then suddenly there is an incentive to go there rather than buying online, but if I have to pay to use the tables then why should I feel bad buying online then paying to play?.
A simple token system means you don't have to pay. So long as you are buying it's free. As you claim you're buying then it's free to play. The only scenario in which you have to pay is one in which none of you (the group that wants to pay) are buying things which is what you say is nit the case. With a token system the only ones affected are moochers. If that's not you then you've nothing to complain about. If it is, then the store owes you nothing.
knas ser wrote: So long as you are buying it's free. As you claim you're buying then it's free to play.
Assuming you're buying enough. And it isn't free because I'm paying an extra 20% or more to buy at the store instead of online. The only question here is whether it's worth paying that extra 20% to get access to a gaming table.
The only scenario in which you have to pay is one in which none of you (the group that wants to pay) are buying things which is what you say is nit the case.
Unless you're buying things that aren't expensive enough to get you tokens, or not buying anything right now because you're waiting for your new codex and saving your money for the new releases, or your friend is buying stuff but saving their tokens to play someone else who also needs them.
If it is, then the store owes you nothing.
Likewise, I owe the store nothing. If they insist on charging to use their gaming tables I'll just lower my opinion of them appropriately to reflect their poor service and take my money to the competing store that offers free gaming space. Even if I'm buying enough to get the tokens I'll do it as a matter of principle.
knas ser wrote: So long as you are buying it's free. As you claim you're buying then it's free to play.
Assuming you're buying enough. And it isn't free because I'm paying an extra 20% or more to buy at the store instead of online. The only question here is whether it's worth paying that extra 20% to get access to a gaming table.
The only scenario in which you have to pay is one in which none of you (the group that wants to pay) are buying things which is what you say is nit the case.
Unless you're buying things that aren't expensive enough to get you tokens, or not buying anything right now because you're waiting for your new codex and saving your money for the new releases, or your friend is buying stuff but saving their tokens to play someone else who also needs them.
If it is, then the store owes you nothing.
Likewise, I owe the store nothing. If they insist on charging to use their gaming tables I'll just lower my opinion of them appropriately to reflect their poor service and take my money to the competing store that offers free gaming space. Even if I'm buying enough to get the tokens I'll do it as a matter of principle.
The response to both your first points is that the store can set the availability of tokens. Remember the aim of the store is not to make money from the table's per se (it can be, but it doesn't have to be), but to winnow out the true moochers and make clear the value of the tables. If nobody ever pays their £2 to book a table and the entire operation subsists entirely on tokens, the store still wins. Yes, ideally the store also makes some money from paid table time and it needs to keep that as an option open to work. But that's a nice to have which will help the store have better facilities due to being able to put a monetary value on the tables rather than treat them as a necessary evil. The ESSENTIAL part of the principle is that it ties use of facilities to purchases. A store owner will probably set the cost of tokens per purchase quite low if they understand this, because they want you to be getting those tokens. They don't want you going: "it's not worth me buying the Rhino here because I don't get a token". They want you going: "we're having a game tonight and I've been meaning to buy some Dark Reapers, let's just get a blister pack tonight.".
It's a tool to drive home the value of facilities to both parties and to separate customers from moochers. Which is good for both the store and the customers. Remember, only one party needs to have a token so if your friend is a moocher, they just tag along with you the customer. If you're happy with that. It's actually good for you socially if you're a customer.
knas ser wrote: So long as you are buying it's free. As you claim you're buying then it's free to play.
Assuming you're buying enough. And it isn't free because I'm paying an extra 20% or more to buy at the store instead of online. The only question here is whether it's worth paying that extra 20% to get access to a gaming table.
The only scenario in which you have to pay is one in which none of you (the group that wants to pay) are buying things which is what you say is nit the case.
Unless you're buying things that aren't expensive enough to get you tokens, or not buying anything right now because you're waiting for your new codex and saving your money for the new releases, or your friend is buying stuff but saving their tokens to play someone else who also needs them.
If it is, then the store owes you nothing.
Likewise, I owe the store nothing. If they insist on charging to use their gaming tables I'll just lower my opinion of them appropriately to reflect their poor service and take my money to the competing store that offers free gaming space. Even if I'm buying enough to get the tokens I'll do it as a matter of principle.
The response to both your first points is that the store can set the availability of tokens. Remember the aim of the store is not to make money from the table's per se (it can be, but it doesn't have to be), but to winnow out the true moochers and make clear the value of the tables. If nobody ever pays their £2 to book a table and the entire operation subsists entirely on tokens, the store still wins. Yes, ideally the store also makes some money from paid table time and it needs to keep that as an option open to work. But that's a nice to have which will help the store have better facilities due to being able to put a monetary value on the tables rather than treat them as a necessary evil. The ESSENTIAL part of the principle is that it ties use of facilities to purchases. A store owner will probably set the cost of tokens per purchase quite low if they understand this, because they want you to be getting those tokens. They don't want you going: "it's not worth me buying the Rhino here because I don't get a token". They want you going: "we're having a game tonight and I've been meaning to buy some Dark Reapers, let's just get a blister pack tonight.".
It's a tool to drive home the value of facilities to both parties and to separate customers from moochers. Which is good for both the store and the customers. Remember, only one party needs to have a token so if your friend is a moocher, they just tag along with you the customer. If you're happy with that. It's actually good for you socially if you're a customer.
The value of the tables is also for the store and not just for the customer. Having people playing games in your store is good publicity for both the store and the games it sells. Having people spending more time in the store playing games leads to more impulse buys from those people as well. Having free tables on the store is an added incentive for people to buy from your store instead of online.
As soon as you start tying the use of facilities to purchases you put pressure on your customers and you start losing customers as a consequence.
knas ser wrote: So long as you are buying it's free. As you claim you're buying then it's free to play.
Assuming you're buying enough. And it isn't free because I'm paying an extra 20% or more to buy at the store instead of online. The only question here is whether it's worth paying that extra 20% to get access to a gaming table.
The only scenario in which you have to pay is one in which none of you (the group that wants to pay) are buying things which is what you say is nit the case.
Unless you're buying things that aren't expensive enough to get you tokens, or not buying anything right now because you're waiting for your new codex and saving your money for the new releases, or your friend is buying stuff but saving their tokens to play someone else who also needs them.
If it is, then the store owes you nothing.
Likewise, I owe the store nothing. If they insist on charging to use their gaming tables I'll just lower my opinion of them appropriately to reflect their poor service and take my money to the competing store that offers free gaming space. Even if I'm buying enough to get the tokens I'll do it as a matter of principle.
The response to both your first points is that the store can set the availability of tokens. Remember the aim of the store is not to make money from the table's per se (it can be, but it doesn't have to be), but to winnow out the true moochers and make clear the value of the tables. If nobody ever pays their £2 to book a table and the entire operation subsists entirely on tokens, the store still wins. Yes, ideally the store also makes some money from paid table time and it needs to keep that as an option open to work. But that's a nice to have which will help the store have better facilities due to being able to put a monetary value on the tables rather than treat them as a necessary evil. The ESSENTIAL part of the principle is that it ties use of facilities to purchases. A store owner will probably set the cost of tokens per purchase quite low if they understand this, because they want you to be getting those tokens. They don't want you going: "it's not worth me buying the Rhino here because I don't get a token". They want you going: "we're having a game tonight and I've been meaning to buy some Dark Reapers, let's just get a blister pack tonight.".
It's a tool to drive home the value of facilities to both parties and to separate customers from moochers. Which is good for both the store and the customers. Remember, only one party needs to have a token so if your friend is a moocher, they just tag along with you the customer. If you're happy with that. It's actually good for you socially if you're a customer.
The value of the tables is also for the store and not just for the customer. Having people playing games in your store is good publicity for both the store and the games it sells. Having people spending more time in the store playing games leads to more impulse buys from those people as well. Having free tables on the store is an added incentive for people to buy from your store instead of online.
As soon as you start tying the use of facilities to purchases you put pressure on your customers and you start losing customers as a consequence.
I'm really not that convinced. As a customer, I know I would have tokens to use the facilities. And if I hadn't bought anything for a while I would honestly have no problem paying the cost of a pub drink for several hours use of nice facilities. I'm really not feeling pressure. Speaking as someone raised in Britain, I actually feel a great deal more uncomfortable pressure from social obligation and uncertainty than I would from being asked to pay.
I note there's quite a divide based on the flags by people's usernames. Generally, the British like to know how much something costs and be clear and above board about any transactions. I don't like to enter a wibbly-wobbly world of social obligations. If the table is worth £2 for a session of four hours, then I'll cheerfully pay that. If I just walk in and sit down I do not want the shopkeeper hovering around with the expectation I'm going to buy something. If I have bought something, then I want a token to show that I have fulfilled my part of the deal. I do not want people thinking I'm just mooching or taking the piss. Likewise, I do not want to feel like I might be.
If something has a value, tell me how much it is and I will choose whether or not I wish to pay that. Don't put me in some vague tip-toeing dance with a shop-keeper where nothing is clear and social obligations are a big ill-defined mess.
If I have bought something, then I want a token to show that I have fulfilled my part of the deal. I do not want people thinking I'm just mooching or taking the piss.
I'm really not that convinced. As a customer, I know I would have tokens to use the facilities. And if I hadn't bought anything for a while I would honestly have no problem paying the cost of a pub drink for several hours use of nice facilities. I'm really not feeling pressure. Speaking as someone raised in Britain, I actually feel a great deal more uncomfortable pressure from social obligation and uncertainty than I would from being asked to pay.
I note there's quite a divide based on the flags by people's usernames. Generally, the British like to know how much something costs and be clear and above board about any transactions. I don't like to enter a wibbly-wobbly world of social obligations. If the table is worth £2 for a session of four hours, then I'll cheerfully pay that. If I just walk in and sit down I do not want the shopkeeper hovering around with the expectation I'm going to buy something. If I have bought something, then I want a token to show that I have fulfilled my part of the deal. I do not want people thinking I'm just mooching or taking the piss. Likewise, I do not want to feel like I might be.
If something has a value, tell me how much it is and I will choose whether or not I wish to pay that. Don't put me in some vague tip-toeing dance with a shop-keeper where nothing is clear and social obligations are a big ill-defined mess.
Have ever even been to an FLGS or are you just talking about how you "feel" things should be? I ask because as I understand, they aren't very common in the UK?
In your scenario, you could have tokens to use the facilities, but you would still have to ask for permission to use them, no? Just in case they where booked by someone else or for some event. How would that be different from just walking into a store and asking the manager if you could use a table?
Why would the shopkeeper be hovering around? If the tables are free, then they are free, there is no expectation. But if you had tokens, then the shopkeeper WOULD be hovering around, because he would be forced to enforce the time limit on the tokens... How is that better for any part?
There is no vague tip-toeing dance with anyone... If you go into a clothing store and use their changing rooms to try on a bunch of clothes that you then end up not buying, is that an unclear social obligation to you? If you go to a supermarket and eat a bunch of samples without buying the product is that weird to you? There is nothing unclear here, there is no "mooching" involved. Free tables are provided by shops as a way to differentiate themselves from online retailers because they can't compete on cost, so they have to compete on the complementary services that they provide (and they also have some benefits for the store itself like I said in an earlier post). If the tables stop being free, then they are no longer providing a complementary service so what reason do their customers have to not buy online?
I think this thread has been one of the few times I have agreed with nkelsch. *watches for the sky to fall*
To be honest, I think it is best to think about the whole issue this way. If a shop is not entitled to your business then you are not entitled to a shop. Support where you play or it could go under and you could have nowhere to play.
People support the clubs they are in (have to pay rent, insurance ect) so why not support the store you play in.
I find the whole " A store is not entitled to my money , but I am entitled to a gaming space " idea to be a little strange.
Bullockist wrote: I think this thread has been one of the few times I have agreed with nkelsch. *watches for the sky to fall*
To be honest, I think it is best to think about the whole issue this way. If a shop is not entitled to your business then you are not entitled to a shop. Support where you play or it could go under and you could have nowhere to play.
People support the clubs they are in (have to pay rent, insurance ect) so why not support the store you play in.
I find the whole " A store is not entitled to my money , but I am entitled to a gaming space " idea to be a little strange.
That's my 2-3 pounds worth.
We're not saying we're entitled to play there, that's the thing people keep missing.
We're not saying we deserve to play there for free, we're saying we need a reason to shop there when these stores aren't able to offer the same sort of discounts that online retailers can.
Azazelx wrote: Essentially, you boot my mates for not buying/paying and you'll find that I stop going there and spending my money. (FWIW, this was before online discounters, and my friends who didn't spend big or buy a lot were just careful with their money/didn't buy things on impulse/painted everything before buying new stuff/etc. They did buy locally, just not often at all, and when their armies for XYZ game were finished, they were pretty much finished.
Under my model, you can also get tokens for buying things. So if you are, as you say, buying stuff, you would never be affected by this. Only moochers are affected. Buyers don't pay. Non-buyers do. Those who are not willing to be either will go and drag down another shop.
I understand what you're saying. What I'm saying is when you call my friends who buy more rarely than I "moochers" and make them feel unwelcome, you also lose my business.
Bullockist wrote: I think this thread has been one of the few times I have agreed with nkelsch. *watches for the sky to fall*
To be honest, I think it is best to think about the whole issue this way. If a shop is not entitled to your business then you are not entitled to a shop. Support where you play or it could go under and you could have nowhere to play. People support the clubs they are in (have to pay rent, insurance ect) so why not support the store you play in. I find the whole " A store is not entitled to my money , but I am entitled to a gaming space " idea to be a little strange.
That's my 2-3 pounds worth.
We're not saying we're entitled to play there, that's the thing people keep missing. We're not saying we deserve to play there for free, we're saying we need a reason to shop there when these stores aren't able to offer the same sort of discounts that online retailers can.
Keeping them open is reason enough to me. I lived through the great GW influx which killed off all the small gaming shops (not that they had a place to game but you get the idea) in my area. Australia atm seems to be having a resurgence in gaming shops and I for one support keeping them open. Gaming life without FLGS is gak. Tourneys , finding new players, pickup games, a central place for many gamers to meet up at once,a neutral place to meet a new prospective gaming buddy , impulse buys, a place to buy things you don't have to wait a (two?) week(s) for (if not for miniatures at least for paints ect), prize support for tourneys, these are all things that FLGS give you. Look after them , they truly give back more than they take.
Keeping a store open sounds good - but all too often the store is a Not-So-Friendly-Local-Game-Store, and charging to use the table is only part of that.
The places that I have seen charge for tables were also... not very good stores on top of that. (They are also all out of business. Funny, that.)
There needs to be a reason to go to the store - I can run a game at my home (and do), buy online, and save money - and not need to put up with some of the jerks that run the stores.
If it is easier to run the game at home, cheaper to buy from home, and the staff of the store are folks that I would not desire to pass the time of day with... then why should I be willing to spend the money to rent the table?
Sometimes nothing is better than something, if the something just is not worth it.
The store that did not charge for tables also has (note the use of the present tense, there) a friendly, interested, and involved staff, plenty of gaming space, and a booming business. (Crossroad Games in Standish, Maine, in case anybody is interested - good folks.)
Sadly, they are not as local as I might wish, but I do manage to get in and play there every now and again. The only 'negative' thing that I have to say about them is how much Magic the Gathering they have... and for a lot of other people that is a feature, not a bug.
They also have lots of events.
The last game store that was actually local went out of business because of a messy divorce - good folks, and their going out of business sale was where I made my last GW purchase. And, yes, they also had a free gaming table.
Likewise, I owe the store nothing. If they insist on charging to use their gaming tables I'll just lower my opinion of them appropriately to reflect their poor service and take my money to the competing store that offers free gaming space. Even if I'm buying enough to get the tokens I'll do it as a matter of principle.
On "entitlement". I posted this in the Dreamforge thread the other day:
==
My local game store gave me a hard time a couple of weeks ago when I asked (via his FB messages) how much his Army Painter brushes are so I could get my wife who was going to the shopping centre nearby to pick me up a brush or two. The result was that he refused to tell me how much they were, and gave me a hard time about "doing a price check on items under $15" - which was enough to
a) Told me that he's selling them for 2-3 times more than UK prices.
b) Make me decide to buy the brushes from TrollTrader on the other side of the planet. (based on both price and rudeness - either at those levels would be enough.)
I know he's buying those brushes off a middleman/wholesaler who is doing the same price bump that the Eisenkern and your stuff locally is getting - which is not his fault, and if something is close enough, I will buy it locally, but 2-3x the price, and rudeness clinched the non-deal, especially since I wanted 2 full sets of brushes.
He's been there for just over a year. He has in-store gaming, but I've never played there. I do buy paints, dice, reaper, sprays, etc from there from time to time for convenience, impulse purchases and to support him a bit, but I do still buy my big-ticket items from elsewhere - in the UK, and interstate - the same places I did before he set up shop. Because, you know, I'm not paying 20% more on a $80 purchase, or double or even triple on GW models or large AP/Vallejo brush/paint sets.
Personally I think the best balance is to have a paid system for a nominal amount that is then redeemable against purchases in your store. People can then decide what they want to do, either pay and play or get free tables when making purchases from the store. That way your not paying out maintaining the tables for no reward as the nominal fee can go towards upkeep or it encourages purchases in your store. I think most people would prefer to pay a nominal fee for nice tables with plenty of terrain rather than play on crap for free.
UNCLEBADTOUCH wrote: I think most people would prefer to pay a nominal fee for nice tables with plenty of terrain rather than play on crap for free.
Why does it have to be one or the other? All the stores over here offer nice tables with terrain ranging from good to amazing, for free.
It's not for free the cost is built into the stores pricing structure. Removing the cost from the pricing would allow the store to offer better prices for those who shop there.
UNCLEBADTOUCH wrote: I think most people would prefer to pay a nominal fee for nice tables with plenty of terrain rather than play on crap for free.
Why does it have to be one or the other? All the stores over here offer nice tables with terrain ranging from good to amazing, for free.
It's not for free the cost is built into the stores pricing structure. Removing the cost from the pricing would allow the store to offer better prices for those who shop there.
That wasn't what you said in the part that I quoted. You specifically said that the choice was either to pay for decent tables or play for free on crap tables.
Also, setting up tables and terrain is a one time cost for a store that can be amortized (I don't know if this is the correct term in English), as expenses over a period of time. While it can be a tidy sum to shell out all at once, after it is done it shouldn't have any effect on the running costs of the store.
Games Workshop Amsterdam South seem to do this to. You can apparently rent tables with credits that you can get or something. At least that's what I got from their facebook page.
I have a hard time understanding some people in this thread.
Regular stores charge more than Online Stores, at least every store i heard of. In a lot of other markets, this potentially allready spells death for a store. Except ofc you offer a product of higher quality, since everyone sells GW Stuff however, this isnt an argument. So what other possibilities do you have? Offering people a place to partake in the Hobby, meet new people to play/paint/talk with and/or special Events and Workshops. Usually these are free to attend, because every person with a working brain knows: getting more people into the hobby = more money.
Now, if you start to CHARGE for these things, you are effectively taking almost every advantage I had over Online stores away, and thus remove any sensible reason I had to support you in the first place. This is extra stupid if you KNOW there are free alternatives in the area. I dont mind waiting a week or two for my purchases to arrive, instead of being ripped off by some manager who calls people wo HELP HIM MAKE MONEY "leeches".
And Im not accepting that "Token"-Stuff. Seriously? Now i have to EARN play and painting time? What if i havent finished painting the army i just BOUGHT from you, before my tokens run out? And what exactly is keeping me from going elsewhere, and telling everyone else I know to go elsewhere, because im pretty sure very few people appreciate being treated like this, ESPECIALLY with x-better alternatives around?
There is a TON of ways to deal with people that are ABUSING your store as a place to just hang around with not contributing. There is no reason to resort to bad business practices, that are efectually worse for the customers compared to other establishments. There is no reason to punish EVERYONE when its only a few people actually abusing you. If people use the tables or rooms for Systems other than the ones you offer, throw them out! Offer benefits to people who bring you money, instead of punishing those who dont (and also those who dont pay the arbitary amount you set as a threshold).
For example, if I bought an army, there is a certain timeframe I need to paint it, and also a certain timeframe i'll probably want to play it. In this period I probably wont be spending as much as before, a bit of paint here and maybe a Blister there. If I KNEW my store would be throwing me out after the arbitary time i "earned" ran out, I would've bought somewhere else in the first place.
Im pretty sure Wargaming is a market where the Store has to appeal to its customers, not the other way around. Also, everything that Peregrine said. Games Workshop is effectively trying its best to defeat itself at Chess sometimes.
Sidstyler wrote: Technically none of us are profitable. That's the message I'm getting here, anyway. You can spend literally hundreds of dollars on mostly wargaming products over the course of several months (like I apparently do, with our store's new loyalty program we get a $10 coupon for every $100 we spend, and I've earned a lot of $10 coupons in the roughly 5-6 months it's been active), and all your money means jack gak to the store because you're still outspent by all the card gamers. nkelsch is saying wargamers aren't profitable enough period, moochers or not.
If you don't switch to Magic you're still killing your store.
It's a bit overstated, but it's essentially true. HOWEVER it has nothing to do with you as customers and more to do with the nature of wargaming and particularly GW as a company.
CCGs provide an almost instant profit compared to wargames. Additionally, players will always buy new booster packs (since due to rotations, you always need "new" and more cards), they take up way less shelf space, and they are a much safer investment.
Wargames take up a lot of shelf space to have a decent selection, they tie up a lot more capital, players don't need to constantly buy to keep up with the curve, and they don't have impulse buy-sized purchases.
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Lutharr101 wrote: gaming tables aint some god given right. Think people need to realise that when they make their purchase there is nothing on their recipt that states that you now get to make demands (other than the product the sold you works).
Im loving the fact people are making assumptions about this that and the other, then freak out when the other party makes an assumption. How about people deal with facts rather than what they just made up to fit in with their view.
Our local club charges for tables and sells product. they are doing well. Some dont and are doing well. So i think its fair to say both have their place and you have to see whats best for your own shop
I can tell you that as a manager (not owner) of a FLGS formerly an anecdote.
We started out in a local mall as a kiosk selling MTG singles around Revised/4th Edition days. We did pretty well, and the mall let us set up tables and have a tournament once per month. We'd do a LOT better those weekends.
Eventually we moved into a storefront in the mall with table space. We started stocking wargames, continued stocking Magic and other CCGs, and also roleplaying games. We did an amazing business, way better than before. To be fair, this was during the heyday of Pokemon.
We moved out of the mall to a bigger storefront eventually, due to the mall trying to raise rent an unfair amount, and the desire to have even more space. We still did quite well, thought not as well as the Pokemon days. However, the owner didn't realize the earlier profits were generated in a huge part by the Pokemon fad, and wanted to go back to the mall, to a spot with no gaming tables. No matter how much we warned him, he insisted the sales wouldn't drop off and our customers would "remain loyal."
We made the move.
Our sales dropped to about 15 percent of what they were in the store with gaming space. Customers who had been with us for 8 years and bought entire cases of every TCG on release wouldn't even return our calls. We closed down about 6 months later.
I don't know how it is over there, but here the game store isthe hub of local gaming social acitivity. Everyone games there, they make their gaming contacts there, we've had people get married after meeting in our store. It's absolutely vital and it's representative of the health of the local gaming community. Without that space, I've never seen a store survive, besides our very first nearly 20 years ago.
) Daily Mail headlines :
on
Did you even read it?
who charges for table space just to prove a point, even when it isn't paying your bills. Good luck keeping customer loyalty with that attitude.
