One of the things that I find really cool about 40k is how all the races have their own different kind of tech and don't all follow the same principle. Tech in the 40k universe is all over the place and is really hard to place in terms of a tech tree due to how different everybody's tech is. So I'm going to make my own tech tree to fit the different races in and to show where I believe the races to fit in the 40k tech tree. I will also put races together in where I feel that they have tech that is similar and/or follows a similar idea. I would like to hear what everyone thinks do they agree or disagree and why.

Alright starting off with how the tech tree works, It will work in levels, level 1 being the highest, level 2, level 3, and level 4 being the lowest. The races fit in these levels where two or three races can fit in one level due to their capabilities being similar and where I will expand on why I put them there.

Level 1
Necrons
They are one of only two races that I believe to be able to be in level 1 due to multiple reasons. Starting off with the biggest and most obvious reason is that they beat the Old Ones with the help of the C'tan. The Old Ones being the race that created some of the most famous and powerful races in 40k namely the Eldar. Then they go on to destroy the C'tan(not really destroy just blow up into a million pieces and then seal the pieces away so that the C'tan never return). They have World Engines that can destroy nearly everything in their path and can destroy the galaxy with a flick of a switch. The last reason the I will go into for now is that when even if one lowly necron warrior goes down did you really kill it or did it just teleport to a repair shop half way across the galaxy.

C'tan
The only other surviving race to fit into level 1. These guys made the necrons into who they are today have only one weakness and have been shown to whether it very well. A shard of one these guys is enough to make one hell of a mess and a fully restored C'tan is enough to end it all. They are masters of the material universe and as far as I know have no real enemy. I don't think the Eldar can do much in their current state if a C'tan was to come back at full strength it is over for everyboby. Lets face it they eat stars and the souls of mortals to survive a being that does that has little to fear.

Level 2
Eldar
Now I know some of you are like no way the Eldar are as good as or even better than the necrons and they need to be in level 1 . Well I disagree with that and here is why . The main reason is that the Eldar were created by the Old Ones who were beaten and destroyed by the necrons. The necrons were also were weak from fighting the C'tan (which they beat by the way something no one else was able to do). Being able to defeat a servilely beaten opponent is not being better than them at all . Now on to why the Eldar are in level 2. The Eldar tech is a hard one to place due to the fact that they don't build their tech they grow it with their psychic abilities a very different process to almost every other race which is a really cool way of getting your tech. They have craftworlds the size of planets and they have created worlds. Their psychic abilities are second to no one and have the webway which gives them a very big advantage in warfare. They have created a chaos god (not one of their prouder moments, but hey how many can say they created a chaos god). The Eldar are a powerful race that even now in their slow extinction are a powerful force that can still shape the fate of the galaxy.

Dark Eldar
Not really going to go into these guys to much due to the fact that they are Eldar. So really these guys are on the same level as normal Eldar they just do things differently and with a lot more pain.

Tyranids
I put them in level 2 because of their tech being all biological making them in my opinion one of the most advanced races in the 40k universe. Everything the tyranids use is biological from their weapons to their space ships is a astounding achievement when one stops to think about it. The tyranids attack in huge numbers with MC that are horribly difficult to kill and that have very specialized skills that add to the overall deadliness of these creatures. They adapt to every situation with speed that is in itself horrifying as well as being very good strategists and top it all off with the ability to cause a shadow on the warp makes them a very dangerous foe. Though the true horror of the Tyranids is none of these abilities it is just how long have these creatures been in this galaxy, just how vast is the tyranid horde, and where did they come from. If they are from another galaxy just how many galaxies have suffered the plague that is the Tyranids and what other horrors lay within the rest of the tyranid horde.

Chaos Deamons
Now these guys are truly hard to place due to not having technology of any kind really, but due to the sheer power of chaos and how every race fears it; chaos is put into level 2. Every race fears chaos(expect the tyranids I believe though chaos is not good for them either) even the necrons fear them and do everything they can to destroy chaos. The chaos gods being creatures of the warp and the warp itself being the only things that can kill a C'tan and potentially destroy the necrons make it a prime target for the undead robots. Chaos might not have the tech of the other races due to only really making swords and enchanted items, but they are a very powerful race that threatens the very fabric of the universe unlike any other enemy in the galaxy.

Level 3
Imperium Of Man
The IOM is put into level 3 due to having lost its most of its tech during the Age of Strife and never truly reclaiming it long lost glory. The current times for the IOM are no better, but the IOM still has an impressive arsenal of technology in its SM and in its Tech Priests. Mankind still is able to teleport and is able to successfully navigate the warp for one of the fastest navies in 40k. IOM may not hold the most powerful nor greatest standard armament (aka the lasgun), nor have the most impressive tech on the battle field of 40k, but what the IOM does have is ease of manufacture and that is a hard thing to beat. Now I believe that in its glory days mankind was in level 2 though due to the men of iron and the eye of terror("cough" Eldar "cough" humanity fell. Though I believe that the tech priests know more than they let on to and that their is some powerful tech hidden away deep in many forgeworlds.

Orks
Orks are another fun one to place due to the mess that is their tech which ranges from sticks and stones to stompas and gravity weapons. Orks are put in level 3 due to the randomness of their tech and how their tech is genetically engineered in. When it comes to Orks you never know what you are going to get. it could be a group of simple tribal Orks from an invasion that happened three centuries ago or you can get the invasion from hell with all the toppings you just don't know. Orks are able to do a lot of technology feats that the IOM can do and some that are totally unique to them. Despite everything Orks can't do anti-gravity vehicles and seem to forever stay out of their reach, but I don't let that hurt them on the tech tree due to all of the other madness Orks are capable of.

Level 4
Tau
Oh let the rage begin . Now I know that there are lots of you out there that are like no way you can't do that they belong in like level 2.5 or something and that they have better tech than the IOM . Well calm down and read my reasons for putting the Tau in level 4. First off the Tau are a young race that have only been on the galactic stage for a couple of centuries(in terms of expanding into a galactic empire). The tech that the Tau have is impressive no doubt about that, but their tech is still far behind everybody else. In the Tau codex it does state that most of the IOM equipment that the Earth caste looked at was either inferior or to unstable to think about using. The thing about it is the IOM is so large that equipping its IG is easier if the equipment is easy to manufacture anywhere and everywhere and is literately idiot proof. Also take notice of the fact that mankind can put weapons like a plasma gun and meltas in the hands of guardsmen where as the Tau have to put theirs on heavy weapons platforms. Battlesuits are good, but when you look at the fact it takes the Tau a huge suit to get the same kind of protection as a SM (who by the way is able to go where a battlesuit can't) the Tau are behind. Also if it was not for the jetpack the battlesuit would be nothing more than a large walking target. The Tau also can't teleport and every other race can mange this(expect tyranids). They also have to use a gravity hook to pull their smaller ships behind their larger ones due to their smaller ships being unable to skim the warp. They can't use the warp to travel like the IOM and have one of the if not the slowest navy in the 40k universe. The new Tau codex also shows us that the tau are becoming more desperate for more powerful weapons. They have created weapons that are just as lethal to the user as to the enemy. Something that before wouldn't have been done. Another thing to remember is that they didn't create ion weaponry it was given to them by the Demiurg. So not all the tech the tau have they invented themselves. The tau are a cool race and very fun to play, but their fluff is full of and they are protected by plot armor which also has a bad habit of leaving out casualty reports and how ork and tyranid attacks effect their expansion. Just remember to remove the when you look at them not as a way to look down on them, but to add more depth to them its not really a good story when one just walks in and totally owns everything.

Well that's my tech tree and I'm very interested in hearing what others have to say.

I don't even know where to begin.

I completely disagree with the Tau being at the bottom. Their tech is not behind everyone else, you said yourself "In the Tau codex it does state that most of the IOM equipment that the Earth caste looked at was either inferior or to unstable to think about using." You make it seem like the Tau would be completely unable to give a Firewarrior a heavier weapon, when that is most definitely not the case. They could give squads flamers, plasma rifles, missile launchers etc but they don't because they choose not to. It's nothing at all to do with their level of technology. It does not take a huge suit to get to the same level of protection of a Space Marine, they have Space Marine sized battlesuits which offer a similar level of protection, such as Stealth suits and the XV-22. Battlesuits are not slow, even without a jetpack. They aren't like sentiels, they behave similarly to an actual firewarior in terms of how they move (they can run, grasp pick things up, crouch down etc). The whole point of crisis battlesuits is to be a fast, mobile weapons platform - why would they give Firewarriors heavy weapons when the Battlesuits next to them can provide a greater level of firepower and be much more maneuverable and heavily armoured?

What weapons have they made that are just as lethal to the user? The only thing i can think of is the Riptide, which only becomes a problem when it is overcharged - as in, that's not how it is really intended to be used. Ion weaponry was given to them by the Demiurg, but so what? I'd put the imperium lower in the scale, they may have some impressive and powerful things- but in quite a lot of cases they have no idea how to properly make more of it or how it works. You're saying Finding technology from the past and using it without understanding it makes the Imperium more technologically advanced than the Tau, who actually understand all their technology and are constantly improving it.

 Mentlegen324 wrote:

What weapons have they made that are just as lethal to the user?

Look at the old WD article introducing rail rifles, around the time of the Eye of Terror campaign. At that time rail rifles had the "Get Hot" rule like plasma guns, though this was more explained as the rail rifle's targeting system sometimes causing fatal feedback to the nervous system of the firer. The Earth caste were apparently having problems eliminating the problem entirely though claimed they had reduced its frequency. The Ethereal supervising the testing in that WD article seemed to accept that perhaps a few fatalities were an acceptable price to pay to get the rifle into service more quickly. In the article's story, the Fire caste commander was furious at the Earth caste scientist after the Fire caste gunner died test firing the prototype on the firing range. However that rage and objection instantly subsided when the Ethereal decided to push ahead and put the rail rifle into mass production, rationalizing that some sacrifices were necessary for the Greater Good.

Of course it seems the Earth caste did eventually get the rail rifle working by the next Codex, but the article seems to show the Ethereals (or at least one of them) willing to sacrifice Tau lives at least indirectly. It was more a statement on the Ethereals:

1) Having some extreme control, possibly due to other means beyond just ideology, as the Fire caste commander instantly calmed and changed his opinion to conform to the Ethreal's wishes.

2) That the Ethereals were becoming darker and being more willing to sacrifice other Tau, all in the name of the Greater Good (as defined by the Ethereals).

So it was more a statement on the Tau society rather than their technology.

 Mentlegen324 wrote:
I completely disagree with the Tau being at the bottom. Their tech is not behind everyone else, you said yourself "In the Tau codex it does state that most of the IOM equipment that the Earth caste looked at was either inferior or to unstable to think about using." You make it seem like the Tau would be completely unable to give a Firewarrior a heavier weapon, when that is most definitely not the case. They could give squads flamers, plasma rifles, missile launchers etc but they don't because they choose not to. It's nothing at all to do with their level of technology. It does not take a huge suit to get to the same level of protection of a Space Marine, they have Space Marine sized battlesuits which offer a similar level of protection, such as Stealth suits and the XV-22. Battlesuits are not slow, even without a jetpack. They aren't like sentiels, they behave similarly to an actual firewarior in terms of how they move (they can run, grasp pick things up, crouch down etc). The whole point of crisis battlesuits is to be a fast, mobile weapons platform - why would they give Firewarriors heavy weapons when the Battlesuits next to them can provide a greater level of firepower and be much more maneuverable and heavily armoured?

What weapons have they made that are just as lethal to the user? The only thing i can think of is the Riptide, which only becomes a problem when it is overcharged - as in, that's not how it is really intended to be used. Ion weaponry was given to them by the Demiurg, but so what? I'd put the imperium lower in the scale, they may have some impressive and powerful things- but in quite a lot of cases they have no idea how to properly make more of it or how it works. You're saying Finding technology from the past and using it without understanding it makes the Imperium more technologically advanced than the Tau, who actually understand all their technology and are constantly improving it.

First off no offense, but did you read half of what I wrote because I state other reasons why the tau are in level 4. Second I believe that the tech priests know more than they let on and horde technology meaning that they have some serious firepower hidden away. The fluff of them not knowing how to screw in a light bulb doesn't make any sense. If that was true then after 10,000 years humanity would already be dead.

Another point is that ease of manufacture does tend to produce lesser quality equipment, but that does not mean what the tau have is better(by this I mean all of it when it comes to basic equipment load out yes the tau are better). The IOM can produce true anti-gravity where tau tanks are a combination of anti-gravity and jet engine making for a very complex system. Also if the tau could put plasma rifles and fusion blasters in the hands of firewarriors then they would already have done so.

For lethal user equipment read up on the riptide that thing has a bad habit of killing its own pilot and for those tau using the ion rifle they are going to die due to lethal exposure to radiation.

Im certain this thread was simply made as an experiment to see how much rage could be mined from calling tau "lower tech" than the IOM

Really though, the current tau codex and all fluff clearly shows that the tau are far more advanced that the IOM, also, the tau actaully understand how their technology works, where as the techpriests, while not being so stupid as to not know how to screw in a lightbulb (although such a thing probably requires a small hymn to be sung during the process and a prayer said afterwards) have little to no idea how much of their technology works, or have lost the actual reasons something works in tons of superstition (see the "rights of activation" transcript, I believe from necromunda or the imperial guard codex perhaps? that literally goes through the correct holy way of starting an engine, and the correct way to hit it with a hammer if it doesn't turn on first time)

The tau cities are stated to look like "paradises of efficiency" compared to an imperial hive their weapons are more advanced, and their general tech is way ahead of the imperium, bar maybe the imperials best dark age tech, which they can barely reproduce and don't understand at all.

Really the only limitations the tau have are the lack of the same level of resources available to the imperium and the lack of the navigator gene or any psychic talents which hinders their ability for warp travel

All in all I would put tau at the same level as the imperium, or slightly higher

What? The Old Ones ROFLstomped the necrons. The whining metal toasters were basically exterminated but the second order (and unanticipated, obviously) effects of the weapons the Old Ones used created the enslaver plague which killed many of them. Seeing as how they were creating the younger races anyway, the Necrons can't really claim to have much of a hand at all in wiping out the Old Ones, if in fact the old ones are truly extinct, which I find to be a pretty unlikely hypothesis.

Granted, Necrons are undoubtedly on top of the pile in the current day, but to say they killed the old ones is to get the cart before the horse. To the necrons, the conflict against the old ones was an existential do or die crisis. To the old ones it was like extreme gardening. If and when the Old Ones return, it will be the same old story, and the necrons will be twisted rusting metal in the desert while the wailing laments of a million fanbois drifts eerily through the cordite tinted air. Tell me you weren't one of those cool guys that started a Necron army in 3e for 'the background'. Barf.

I don't think a simple linear scale works.

There are several different domains or parameters. There is the actual technological level (i.e. what is the most advanced tech this race has ever produced), the level of dissemination of technology (how accessible is technology), and the ability to reproduce & manufacture the technology.

The Imperium clearly has technology the Tau don't have, often stuff that interacts with the warp or involves psykers. However such technology is hoarded by the Adeptus Mechanicus and/or is not easily reproduce because they are irreplaceable relics or poorly understood so they are manufactured in a secretive craftsman style fashion. This technology then is susceptible to being lost if those few that know do not pass on their knowledge. The Imperium is also characterized by the sharp divide between the haves and have nots, with the have nots having very primitive technology while the nobility and Inquisitors can have access to advanced technology.

The Tau may not have certain technology that the Imperium has, but what the Tau do have is more widely understood and mass produced. The Tau also have wider dissemination with their cities being stereotypical advanced science fiction cities, while the Imperium's hives are a futuristic version of the mill town. The first Tau Codex has a Tech-Priest report that notes outlying Imperial colonies have committed tech-heresy for trading for improved (i.e. better than Imperial) construction and agricultural machinery from the Tau.

So if I were to compare: The Imperium has higher maximum tech, but there is little dissemination of technology resulting in a low average level of technology. The advanced technology is only available in limited quantities and is not easily reproducible or is even irreplaceable. The Tau has a lower maximum tech but what it does have is widely distributed, understood, and manufactured and Tau society's average level of technology is higher.

 Silverthorne wrote:
What? The Old Ones ROFLstomped the necrons. The whining metal toasters were basically exterminated but the second order (and unanticipated, obviously) effects of the weapons the Old Ones used created the enslaver plague which killed many of them. Seeing as how they were creating the younger races anyway, the Necrons can't really claim to have much of a hand at all in wiping out the Old Ones, if in fact the old ones are truly extinct, which I find to be a pretty unlikely hypothesis.

Granted, Necrons are undoubtedly on top of the pile in the current day, but to say they killed the old ones is to get the cart before the horse. To the necrons, the conflict against the old ones was an existential do or die crisis. To the old ones it was like extreme gardening. If and when the Old Ones return, it will be the same old story, and the necrons will be twisted rusting metal in the desert while the wailing laments of a million fanbois drifts eerily through the cordite tinted air. Tell me you weren't one of those cool guys that started a Necron army in 3e for 'the background'. Barf.

The Old ones "Roflstomped" the Necrontyr. The Necrons caused the Extinction of the Old ones. The Old ones did not create the Enslaver Plague either, it was a byproduct of them using the warp too much, as Enslavers are native to the warp. There really isn't any Hypothesis to the Old ones being extinct, they are.

Necrons were always stated to have the superior technolgy to the Old ones. The only reason the Old Ones won was their original war in Heaven with the Necrontyr, was their mastery of the Warp and Webway.

 Silverthorne wrote:
What? The Old Ones ROFLstomped the necrons. The whining metal toasters were basically exterminated but the second order (and unanticipated, obviously) effects of the weapons the Old Ones used created the enslaver plague which killed many of them. Seeing as how they were creating the younger races anyway, the Necrons can't really claim to have much of a hand at all in wiping out the Old Ones, if in fact the old ones are truly extinct, which I find to be a pretty unlikely hypothesis.

Granted, Necrons are undoubtedly on top of the pile in the current day, but to say they killed the old ones is to get the cart before the horse. To the necrons, the conflict against the old ones was an existential do or die crisis. To the old ones it was like extreme gardening. If and when the Old Ones return, it will be the same old story, and the necrons will be twisted rusting metal in the desert while the wailing laments of a million fanbois drifts eerily through the cordite tinted air. Tell me you weren't one of those cool guys that started a Necron army in 3e for 'the background'. Barf.

No I didn't and don't have a necron army don't plan on having one(all the armies I have are listed in my profile). Though I said the they did it with the help of the C'tan which could have destroyed the Old ones as the C'tan are as old as the galaxy itself up there with the Old ones and I'm pretty sure they are not coming back as that would mean hope for peace and a better future and this is 40k so we can't have that.

I sort of agree. I think that if they did come back their better future would probably not necessarily resemble what humans would consider the ideal future. They would see us, this primate species they had no had in developing, waging basically constant war against their children, exterminating them wherever we could. And they would notice how many humans were servants of Chaos. I'm pretty sure they would exterminate humans just like necrons actually. Or just nuke us back to Terra or something. But I agree, it would probably make the setting LESS interesting to have them return actually.

Iracundus wrote:
I don't think a simple linear scale works.

There are several different domains or parameters. There is the actual technological level (i.e. what is the most advanced tech this race has ever produced), the level of dissemination of technology (how accessible is technology), and the ability to reproduce & manufacture the technology.

The Imperium clearly has technology the Tau don't have, often stuff that interacts with the warp or involves psykers. However such technology is hoarded by the Adeptus Mechanicus and/or is not easily reproduce because they are irreplaceable relics or poorly understood so they are manufactured in a secretive craftsman style fashion. This technology then is susceptible to being lost if those few that know do not pass on their knowledge. The Imperium is also characterized by the sharp divide between the haves and have nots, with the have nots having very primitive technology while the nobility and Inquisitors can have access to advanced technology.

The Tau may not have certain technology that the Imperium has, but what the Tau do have is more widely understood and mass produced. The Tau also have wider dissemination with their cities being stereotypical advanced science fiction cities, while the Imperium's hives are a futuristic version of the mill town. The first Tau Codex has a Tech-Priest report that notes outlying Imperial colonies have committed tech-heresy for trading for improved (i.e. better than Imperial) construction and agricultural machinery from the Tau.

So if I were to compare: The Imperium has higher maximum tech, but there is little dissemination of technology resulting in a low average level of technology. The advanced technology is only available in limited quantities and is not easily reproducible or is even irreplaceable. The Tau has a lower maximum tech but what it does have is widely distributed, understood, and manufactured and Tau society's average level of technology is higher.

To be fair to the IOM it has been fighting for 10,000 years farming equipment is kind of on the back burner and the tau empire is a lot smaller than the IOM making it easier to have everything to a set standard. Also I believe that the IOM can replace/make power armor and other rare tech its just that they only do it if they have to not to produce more for larger use. Tech priest like to keep their tech to themselves.

If this is a tech tree, how is the Tyranids ranked high? Wouldn't that be considered part of their biology, not any technology they created.

Also your reasons for ranking IoM above Tau really make no sense. What does being a young race have to do with anything? It is the tech itself that should be looked at.
The only thing the Tau doesn't have is Warp Travel.

Other people already stated some reasons as to why, so I won't just repeat them, but I think your criteria for this tech tree is really inconsistent and misguided. You nick the Tau for being handed over weapons, but the IoM doesn't? I mean, they have lost all knowledge of how to make certain things, and the only way to discovered certain templates was because they found them.

Like the Land Raider Crusader. Wasn't that made because it was discovered?


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 Gunhead1 wrote:

Iracundus wrote:
I don't think a simple linear scale works.

There are several different domains or parameters. There is the actual technological level (i.e. what is the most advanced tech this race has ever produced), the level of dissemination of technology (how accessible is technology), and the ability to reproduce & manufacture the technology.

The Imperium clearly has technology the Tau don't have, often stuff that interacts with the warp or involves psykers. However such technology is hoarded by the Adeptus Mechanicus and/or is not easily reproduce because they are irreplaceable relics or poorly understood so they are manufactured in a secretive craftsman style fashion. This technology then is susceptible to being lost if those few that know do not pass on their knowledge. The Imperium is also characterized by the sharp divide between the haves and have nots, with the have nots having very primitive technology while the nobility and Inquisitors can have access to advanced technology.

The Tau may not have certain technology that the Imperium has, but what the Tau do have is more widely understood and mass produced. The Tau also have wider dissemination with their cities being stereotypical advanced science fiction cities, while the Imperium's hives are a futuristic version of the mill town. The first Tau Codex has a Tech-Priest report that notes outlying Imperial colonies have committed tech-heresy for trading for improved (i.e. better than Imperial) construction and agricultural machinery from the Tau.

So if I were to compare: The Imperium has higher maximum tech, but there is little dissemination of technology resulting in a low average level of technology. The advanced technology is only available in limited quantities and is not easily reproducible or is even irreplaceable. The Tau has a lower maximum tech but what it does have is widely distributed, understood, and manufactured and Tau society's average level of technology is higher.

To be fair to the IOM it has been fighting for 10,000 years farming equipment is kind of on the back burner and the tau empire is a lot smaller than the IOM making it easier to have everything to a set standard. Also I believe that the IOM can replace/make power armor and other rare tech its just that they only do it if they have to not to produce more for larger use. Tech priest like to keep their tech to themselves.

The IoM fighting for 10,000 years has no bearing on how its technology is ranked. It just sounds like you are making excuses as to why the Imperium isn't as technologically advanced as the Tau.

I can't take your "argumentation" for putting Tau at the bottom seriously. You fail to provide a single solid reason and ignore certain well-established facts, like the one that Tau don't do real Warp travel because they have no presence in the Warp, and can't navigate it as such (which has no relation to their technology).

I'm still not certain whether you're a troll or not.

For me it would be:

Tier 0: does not apply. God-like entities, reality-warpers, no need of technology. C´tan, Chaos Gods.

Tier 1: Necrons (with the help of the C´tan), Old Ones.

Tier 2: Eldar, Orks, Tyranids if you really need to put them somewhere, Humans during the Dark Age of Technology.

Tier 3: Tau (learning fast)

Tier 4: current Humans. Sure, they have lots of funny stuff, but they are just using something that has been there since forever. They are unable to replicate any of it, and do not know how it works. You are assuming that the Mechanicus knows far more than it seems. I think they know nothing: they press the "runes" as stated by tradition and "pray" that the machines work. They are "computer users", as opposed to the "computer engineers" of the DAoT.


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 Sasori wrote:
Necrons were always stated to have the superior technolgy to the Old ones. The only reason the Old Ones won was their original war in Heaven with the Necrontyr, was their mastery of the Warp and Webway.

Which makes sense. The Warp is a spiritual dimension made of dreams and emotion, while the Necrons lacked a soul and were unable to access the Warp by themselves. However, using Heaven as a mean to win the war eventually turned it into Hell.

 SarisKhan wrote:
I can't take your "argumentation" for putting Tau at the bottom seriously. You fail to provide a single solid reason and ignore certain well-established facts, like the one that Tau don't do real Warp travel because they have no presence in the Warp, and can't navigate it as such (which has no relation to their technology).

I'm still not certain whether you're a troll or not.

Not trolling so sorry if it seems that way I just feel that people take the Tau way to far(I like the tau its just that they are not as great as everyone seems to think they are). First they have a presence its just so tiny that they are ignored by chaos and due to their small presence they can't navigate the warp and yes it does effect tech for you have to the engines to travel the warp it says so in the new tau codex when they talk about the Earth caste looking over the IOM Tech.

Also my tech tree works by the race's abilities not just tech due to tyranids capabilities and all their tech being biological having a living fleet of intergalactic ships that could have come from another galaxy they have impressive capabilities that few other races have shown having.

I'm not making excuses as to why the tau are not higher ranked than the IOM I put out good reasons as to why they are level 4 and those reasons involve their tech it is still behind in some big areas. Of course the tau are learning they advance their tech as they go. The IOM can only advance once it rediscovers what it has lost. I know fluff wise it tends to put tech priests as morons who just chant and things work, but come on these guys have to know what they are doing, because chanting is only going to go so far and I just don't buy that part of the fluff it just doesn't make much sense. I will buy that due the laws of the IOM it has put the tech priests in a bind where they can only reproduced STC designs. That makes sense and consent warfare does play apart in this where parts of the empire can only produce certain things due to forgeworlds being destroyed or lost and that other tech priests don't want to share their tech. Also if I'm in a consent state of war I'm not really going to worry about the tech level of my citizens. The tau don't have this problem due to how small their empire is and that the Earth caste is willing to share with itself.

Another thing is that this is all my opinion and how I interrupt the fluff. The tech tree is designed to take in all of what a race can or cannot do. Not trying to troll or cause tau fan boy rage, but looking for discussion on the matter of where every race roughly sits in a tech tree. Also I like to tone down the fluff as GW who writes the fluff is a business and is trying to sell models.

 Gunhead1 wrote:

First off no offense, but did you read half of what I wrote because I state other reasons why the tau are in level 4. Second I believe that the tech priests know more than they let on and horde technology meaning that they have some serious firepower hidden away. The fluff of them not knowing how to screw in a light bulb doesn't make any sense. If that was true then after 10,000 years humanity would already be dead.

Another point is that ease of manufacture does tend to produce lesser quality equipment, but that does not mean what the tau have is better(by this I mean all of it when it comes to basic equipment load out yes the tau are better). The IOM can produce true anti-gravity where tau tanks are a combination of anti-gravity and jet engine making for a very complex system. Also if the tau could put plasma rifles and fusion blasters in the hands of firewarriors then they would already have done so.

For lethal user equipment read up on the riptide that thing has a bad habit of killing its own pilot and for those tau using the ion rifle they are going to die due to lethal exposure to radiation.

I read the rest of your reasoning for the Tau, i just didn't comment on all of them. Having no real access to the Warp is not a technological issue though.

Tech priests likely do have serious firepower hidden away, but many of the more powerful devices used by the Imperium are completely unreplaceable once they are lost. Standard equipment like Lasguns they know how to make, but the more powerful things you are claiming makes them more technologically advanced they most certainly do not understand. Your list is for who is the most advanced technologically, not who has the most powerful weapons.

I have not seen anything about Tau anti-gravity requiring jet engines - where are the engines on Tau drones? The Imperial does not have Anti-gravity that can move without thrusters of some sort, either. It can float - but it will be unable to move.

You make it seem like the Tau fight the same way as everyone else, when they don't. They would not put plasma rifles and fusion blasters in the hands of Firewarriors because there is no need for that when the Battlesuits supporting them can do that job much better.

I've already mentioned the Riptide. The Riptide is perfectly safe, the reactor only has a few problems when it is overchanged. Overcharging it means it is being pushed beyond the safe limits. That is not to do with it being bad technology, that's the user deciding to risk it and get more power out of it despite the chance it could harm them. The same thing with the Ion rifle. They are both experimental as well.

As someone else has said, none of your reasons for putting Tau last really make sense or hold together. Not having the most powerful technology does not mean they have the worst technology.

 Mentlegen324 wrote:

 Gunhead1 wrote:

First off no offense, but did you read half of what I wrote because I state other reasons why the tau are in level 4. Second I believe that the tech priests know more than they let on and horde technology meaning that they have some serious firepower hidden away. The fluff of them not knowing how to screw in a light bulb doesn't make any sense. If that was true then after 10,000 years humanity would already be dead.

Another point is that ease of manufacture does tend to produce lesser quality equipment, but that does not mean what the tau have is better(by this I mean all of it when it comes to basic equipment load out yes the tau are better). The IOM can produce true anti-gravity where tau tanks are a combination of anti-gravity and jet engine making for a very complex system. Also if the tau could put plasma rifles and fusion blasters in the hands of firewarriors then they would already have done so.

For lethal user equipment read up on the riptide that thing has a bad habit of killing its own pilot and for those tau using the ion rifle they are going to die due to lethal exposure to radiation.

I read the rest of your reasoning for the Tau, i just didn't comment on all of them. Having no real access to the Warp is not a technological issue though.

Tech priests likely do have serious firepower hidden away, but many of the more powerful devices used by the Imperium are completely unreplaceable once they are lost. Standard equipment like Lasguns they know how to make, but the more powerful things you are claiming makes them more technologically advanced they most certainly do not understand. Your list is for who is the most advanced technologically, not who has the most powerful weapons.

I have not seen anything about Tau anti-gravity requiring jet engines - where are the engines on Tau drones? The Imperial does not have Anti-gravity that can move without thrusters of some sort, either. It can float - but it will be unable to move.

You make it seem like the Tau fight the same way as everyone else, when they don't. They would not put plasma rifles and fusion blasters in the hands of Firewarriors because there is no need for that when the Battlesuits supporting them can do that job much better.

I've already mentioned the Riptide. The Riptide is perfectly safe, the reactor only has a few problems when it is overchanged. Overcharging it means it is being pushed beyond the safe limits. That is not to do with it being bad technology, that's the user deciding to risk it and get more power out of it despite the chance it could harm them. The same thing with the Ion rifle. They are both experimental as well.

As someone else has said, none of your reasons for putting Tau last really make sense or hold together. Not having the most powerful technology does not mean they have the worst technology.

riptides are not safe IOM plasma guns are safer with a 2+ save for overcharge vs the riptide's 3+ also tau, tank engines are talked about in the tau codex under the devilfish. also my tech tree takes in account all of the abilities of the races like psychic abilities, speed and power of their navy, and did they invent all the tech they use. While toning down the fluff that was written by a business that sells toy soldiers.

I haven't read nearly any of this yet and just wanted to say that on the scale of who can use what technology, the ORKS are supreme.

THINK ABOUT IT! They're technology is so advanced, only they can use it. No one else has that advantage. At all! Worse than that is the fact that Ork Technology is "Faith Based" so the more Orks there are believing that their shoota's are the best, the better they get. And that is just nuts! It breaks all laws of physics!!

That's God-Like technology right there! Even if they scrap it from other races, it becomes uniquely there's once looted. XD It's madness I tell you!

 TheRedWingArmada wrote:
I haven't read nearly any of this yet and just wanted to say that on the scale of who can use what technology, the ORKS are supreme.

THINK ABOUT IT! They're technology is so advanced, only they can use it. No one else has that advantage. At all! Worse than that is the fact that Ork Technology is "Faith Based" so the more Orks there are believing that their shoota's are the best, the better they get. And that is just nuts! It breaks all laws of physics!!

That's God-Like technology right there! Even if they scrap it from other races, it becomes uniquely there's once looted. XD It's madness I tell you!

thank you i love this

 TheRedWingArmada wrote:
I haven't read nearly any of this yet and just wanted to say that on the scale of who can use what technology, the ORKS are supreme.

THINK ABOUT IT! They're technology is so advanced, only they can use it. No one else has that advantage. At all! Worse than that is the fact that Ork Technology is "Faith Based" so the more Orks there are believing that their shoota's are the best, the better they get. And that is just nuts! It breaks all laws of physics!!

That's God-Like technology right there! Even if they scrap it from other races, it becomes uniquely there's once looted. XD It's madness I tell you!

Actually this is a bit of a misnomer when it comes to Orks as although some of their tech can baffle other races in their attempts to comprehend their inner workings like Shokk Attack Guns this doesn't mean that their tech only works in the hands of the Orks; it just works BETTER or as they're supposed/imagined to be within reason. So a shoota still has to work in the fundamental sense of having firing mechanisms and ammo just every other gun and not just a being a pipe with duct-taped nails on it. The psychic resonance generated by Orks which you describe as "faith" is what allows the shoota and other weaponry+vehicles to work in good ramshackle Orky consistency as others who try to drive/utilize them suffer things that the psychic resonance from the Orks prevent such as frequent jamming or overheating for guns and engine failures for vehicles.

There's several books where non-Orks manage to utilize Ork tech, not to the best of their abilities but it shows this is still very possible. The novel Siege of Castellax is one example as well as in a couple of RPG's where you can pick up and use Ork weaponry but they are much less effective in the hands of a non-Ork.

 da001 wrote:
For me it would be:

Tier 0: does not apply. God-like entities, reality-warpers, no need of technology. C´tan, Chaos Gods.

Tier 1: Necrons (with the help of the C´tan), Old Ones.

Tier 2: Eldar, Orks, Tyranids if you really need to put them somewhere, Humans during the Dark Age of Technology.

Tier 3: Tau (learning fast)

Tier 4: current Humans. Sure, they have lots of funny stuff, but they are just using something that has been there since forever. They are unable to replicate any of it, and do not know how it works. You are assuming that the Mechanicus knows far more than it seems. I think they know nothing: they press the "runes" as stated by tradition and "pray" that the machines work. They are "computer users", as opposed to the "computer engineers" of the DAoT.


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 Sasori wrote:
Necrons were always stated to have the superior technolgy to the Old ones. The only reason the Old Ones won was their original war in Heaven with the Necrontyr, was their mastery of the Warp and Webway.

Which makes sense. The Warp is a spiritual dimension made of dreams and emotion, while the Necrons lacked a soul and were unable to access the Warp by themselves. However, using Heaven as a mean to win the war eventually turned it into Hell.

Exalted, this makes a lot more sense. Chaos and C'tan are reality warpers, and thus have the best technology over everyone else.

Also I'd put Orks at Tau level or near them. While their logistical tech is bloody amazing, its not refined compared to anyone else and typically looses to counterparts in the same class of weapon or vehicle. While their tech is great logistically and extremely efficient- it'll typically lose on a 1v1 with something of the same class IMO.

 Gunhead1 wrote:

 Mentlegen324 wrote:

 Gunhead1 wrote:

First off no offense, but did you read half of what I wrote because I state other reasons why the tau are in level 4. Second I believe that the tech priests know more than they let on and horde technology meaning that they have some serious firepower hidden away. The fluff of them not knowing how to screw in a light bulb doesn't make any sense. If that was true then after 10,000 years humanity would already be dead.

Another point is that ease of manufacture does tend to produce lesser quality equipment, but that does not mean what the tau have is better(by this I mean all of it when it comes to basic equipment load out yes the tau are better). The IOM can produce true anti-gravity where tau tanks are a combination of anti-gravity and jet engine making for a very complex system. Also if the tau could put plasma rifles and fusion blasters in the hands of firewarriors then they would already have done so.

For lethal user equipment read up on the riptide that thing has a bad habit of killing its own pilot and for those tau using the ion rifle they are going to die due to lethal exposure to radiation.

I read the rest of your reasoning for the Tau, i just didn't comment on all of them. Having no real access to the Warp is not a technological issue though.

Tech priests likely do have serious firepower hidden away, but many of the more powerful devices used by the Imperium are completely unreplaceable once they are lost. Standard equipment like Lasguns they know how to make, but the more powerful things you are claiming makes them more technologically advanced they most certainly do not understand. Your list is for who is the most advanced technologically, not who has the most powerful weapons.

I have not seen anything about Tau anti-gravity requiring jet engines - where are the engines on Tau drones? The Imperial does not have Anti-gravity that can move without thrusters of some sort, either. It can float - but it will be unable to move.

You make it seem like the Tau fight the same way as everyone else, when they don't. They would not put plasma rifles and fusion blasters in the hands of Firewarriors because there is no need for that when the Battlesuits supporting them can do that job much better.

I've already mentioned the Riptide. The Riptide is perfectly safe, the reactor only has a few problems when it is overchanged. Overcharging it means it is being pushed beyond the safe limits. That is not to do with it being bad technology, that's the user deciding to risk it and get more power out of it despite the chance it could harm them. The same thing with the Ion rifle. They are both experimental as well.

As someone else has said, none of your reasons for putting Tau last really make sense or hold together. Not having the most powerful technology does not mean they have the worst technology.

riptides are not safe IOM plasma guns are safer with a 2+ save for overcharge vs the riptide's 3+ also tau, tank engines are talked about in the tau codex under the devilfish. also my tech tree takes in account all of the abilities of the races like psychic abilities, speed and power of their navy, and did they invent all the tech they use. While toning down the fluff that was written by a business that sells toy soldiers.

The Tau do use thrusters to move their anti-grav, but these are mentioned to be more powerful than their imperial equivalents. Tau do actually have a quite powerful navy, it's just that for a while, before they built craft specifically meant for fighting, they only used retrofitted merchant vessels. The riptide is very safe, as long as you don't overcharge it (as previously stated). Psychic abilities are most definitely NOT technology, and should not be considered in a Technology tree (and besides, the Tau have nissicar for that). Tau invented all of their technology, accept for ion technology, which they got from durmeug mining lasers.

 Grimskul wrote:

 TheRedWingArmada wrote:
I haven't read nearly any of this yet and just wanted to say that on the scale of who can use what technology, the ORKS are supreme.

THINK ABOUT IT! They're technology is so advanced, only they can use it. No one else has that advantage. At all! Worse than that is the fact that Ork Technology is "Faith Based" so the more Orks there are believing that their shoota's are the best, the better they get. And that is just nuts! It breaks all laws of physics!!

That's God-Like technology right there! Even if they scrap it from other races, it becomes uniquely there's once looted. XD It's madness I tell you!

Actually this is a bit of a misnomer when it comes to Orks as although some of their tech can baffle other races in their attempts to comprehend their inner workings like Shokk Attack Guns this doesn't mean that their tech only works in the hands of the Orks; it just works BETTER or as they're supposed/imagined to be within reason. So a shoota still has to work in the fundamental sense of having firing mechanisms and ammo just every other gun and not just a being a pipe with duct-taped nails on it. The psychic resonance generated by Orks which you describe as "faith" is what allows the shoota and other weaponry+vehicles to work in good ramshackle Orky consistency as others who try to drive/utilize them suffer things that the psychic resonance from the Orks prevent such as frequent jamming or overheating for guns and engine failures for vehicles.

There's several books where non-Orks manage to utilize Ork tech, not to the best of their abilities but it shows this is still very possible. The novel Siege of Castellax is one example as well as in a couple of RPG's where you can pick up and use Ork weaponry but they are much less effective in the hands of a non-Ork.

I picture ork guns to be completely disjointed and making no sense what-so-ever. Like a trigger that doesn't pull anything but still fires the gun or a bunch of scrap that's somehow magnetized by Ork WAAAGH! and if an IG picked it up and tried to fire it, it would just fall to pieces. Or a Trukk that explodes when someone non-Orky tries to drive it because they gotta put it in WAAAAGH! first, then 2nd WAAAAGH!!!

Loves me some Orkz sometimes. Too bad I could never be one.

The correct tech "tree" (which is really a scale, not a tree):

Level 1:

Necrons: top end of 40k technology, short of literal gods. Necron raw firepower/defense/etc numbers equal or beat everyone else, they have tons of fancy tricks, and they (as a whole) have a rational view of technology as a useful tool.

Eldar/DE: near the top end. Maybe not quite Necron level, but clearly a tier above the next best factions.

Level 2:

Tau: superior 1v1 to most opponents, but still have a bit of learning to do before they catch up to the Necrons or Eldar. Also benefit from having a rational view of progress in science/engineering, and enough pragmatism to do what works instead of treating everything like a religion.

Level 3:

Imperium: marginally better than modern equipment in raw numbers, but unbelievably awful engineering. The LRBT embodies the state of the Imperium: a WWI tank design with laser guns bolted onto the hull, and nobody knows how to fix all of its stupid design elements. The few priceless and irreplaceable relics the Imperium has are too rare to be relevant in a large-scale war, and much of their technology has serious drawbacks (for example, FTL that requires a literal trip into hell). The Imperium's complete lack of understanding of how science and engineering work ensure that what few advantages they do have will always be thrown away.

Traitors: take the Imperium and make it a bit worse.

Modern world: we lose on raw numbers, but absolutely dominate in areas like computers or anything to do with science or engineering.

Level 4:

Orks: it's magic. Take away the magic and you're left with an enemy the average real-world military could handle without any real effort.

Level 5:

Demons: literal magic, nothing more. Take away the magic and you're left with nothing.

Level 6:

Tyranids: take away the arbitrary "I'm the author, I say Tyranids work" and they instantly collapse under the sheer weight of their own idiocy. Their entire existence is based on authors who don't know how thermodynamics or genetics/evolution work, and their "technology" consists of "I'm the author, I say the Tyranids get to do X".


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 Gunhead1 wrote:
because chanting is only going to go so far and I just don't buy that part of the fluff it just doesn't make much sense.

The most reasonable explanation here is that the Imperium has turned the blueprints and user's manual into a sacred text. So when the techpriest chants the ritual of awakening the gunnery spirit what he's really doing is just going step by step through the user's manual "rebooting the fire control computer" section with a bunch of candles and sacred oils and stuff. Same with manufacturing, you don't need to understand how something works to follow the step by step directions to build it. And this fits perfectly with what we see in the fluff: the Imperium is capable of operating technology it has already, but utterly unable to understand it or do anything to improve it or modify it beyond straightforward things like swapping the gun on a tank.

Also if I'm in a consent state of war I'm not really going to worry about the tech level of my citizens.

Sure you are. Automated factories are much more efficient than having uneducated slave labor. Reasonable population control is much more efficient than having hive cities that require vast amounts of imported food (occupying valuable transport ships). Having a decent standard of living is much more efficient than having constant wars to put down rebellions among the unhappy population of your hell-cities. The fact that the Imperium has to resort to such crude methods is pretty clear evidence that it has no better option.

and yes it does effect tech for you have to the engines to travel the warp it says so in the new tau codex when they talk about the Earth caste looking over the IOM Tech

On the other hand Tau FTL doesn't require a literal trip into hell and suffer from problems with demons eating your ship, important fleets arriving thousands of years before or after the battle they were needed for, etc. Tau FTL may be slow but at least it's safe and consistent.


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 Gunhead1 wrote:
The IOM can produce true anti-gravity where tau tanks are a combination of anti-gravity and jet engine making for a very complex system.

Tau have the same system as the Imperium if you compare the models: antigravity to lift the vehicle off the ground, engines to give forward thrust.

Also if the tau could put plasma rifles and fusion blasters in the hands of firewarriors then they would already have done so.

Why? This is like saying that if real-world armies could put anti-tank missiles in the hands of every soldier they would already have done so. You're ignoring the strategic reasons for that decision and assuming it's all a matter of availability instead.


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 Gunhead1 wrote:
Battlesuits are good, but when you look at the fact it takes the Tau a huge suit to get the same kind of protection as a SM (who by the way is able to go where a battlesuit can't) the Tau are behind. Also if it was not for the jetpack the battlesuit would be nothing more than a large walking target.

You're ignoring the fact that battlesuits are for much more than just protection. Compared to power armor the battlesuit gives better protection (+1 T, +1 W, 2+ or 3+ armor save), integrated heavy weapons (including fire control, power/ammo supply, etc) and a jet pack. This comparison makes about as much sense as comparing power armor to terminator armor and assuming that the terminator armor is low-tech garbage because it's so bulky.

To Peregrine
I like the points that you have, but I disagree with you in a few areas. First off when it comes to the tyranids I going by the current codex and these guys are a very serious threat and have only been beaten most of the time in very close matches. You are right my tech tree is more of a scale (need to change the title probably) and in this scale I'm trying to take into account all of what a race can do not just oh I have a rail gun that makes me better than all of you right off the back. The Tau are good there is no arguing that point, but they are not level 2 I could be talked into putting them in the high end of level 3, but a race can't jump that high in tech that fast. If they had tech that was just behind the Eldar then the IOM wouldn't have an Eastern Fringe and the IOM would have a third major war going on.

Level 6:

Tyranids: take away the arbitrary "I'm the author, I say Tyranids work" and they instantly collapse under the sheer weight of their own idiocy. Their entire existence is based on authors who don't know how thermodynamics or genetics/evolution work, and their "technology" consists of "I'm the author, I say the Tyranids get to do X".

Tyranids at tier 2 might be a bit much maybe very low tier 2 or high tier 3. But to say that they are quote stupid is why the Imperium of man has lost so many battles against the Tyranids. The Tyranids need to be high tier simply because of how they do warfare.
First- They are doing biological warfare to the extreme. They are much more brutal when taking over a planet then any other race maybe besides the Necrons/Chaos. Tyranids will eat/consume the whole bio/raw martial on the planet leaving the planet dead.
Second-how they reproduce is to the scale of Orks and the sheer number they can reproduce in a short amount of time. also they use the opposing forces army for their own be consuming eat then making troops out of the martial no other army does that.
Third- Their ability to adapt so quickly. Not just in warfare but in tactics. Also they having the understanding of what officers are and the need to take them out by any way possible.

Now it is hard to put a tier on Tyranids simply because of how they work but to put them at the bottom of the tier and to call them stupid just shows your ignorance.

 Peregrine wrote:

Also if the tau could put plasma rifles and fusion blasters in the hands of firewarriors then they would already have done so.

Why? This is like saying that if real-world armies could put anti-tank missiles in the hands of every soldier they would already have done so. You're ignoring the strategic reasons for that decision and assuming it's all a matter of availability instead.

Yeah, the tau don't use integrated heavy weapons in their Fire Warrior teams, because of their combat doctrine.

 Co'tor Shas wrote:

 Peregrine wrote:

Also if the tau could put plasma rifles and fusion blasters in the hands of firewarriors then they would already have done so.

Why? This is like saying that if real-world armies could put anti-tank missiles in the hands of every soldier they would already have done so. You're ignoring the strategic reasons for that decision and assuming it's all a matter of availability instead.

Yeah, the tau don't use integrated heavy weapons in their Fire Warrior teams, because of their combat doctrine.

Doesn't mean that with new weapons systems that combat doctrine doesn't change look at pathfinder squads. Now it could all be combat doctrine and that is why they have not reduced them in size or they just can't do it or the last reason could be is that GW wanted to do something different and not copy other armies that have those weapons in their infantry squads.

P.S. there not really heavy weapons I mean plasma is a gun and in game is rapid fire not heavy. Meltas are assault weapons not heavy. Missile launchers are heavy, lascannons are heavy, and other weapons of the like.

Hmm, I like it. The controversial Tau issue, while I agree with some parts I disagree in others. I believe they are on par/better the the IOM in some areas, but worse in others. Therefore they should be on equal footing, while the highest imperial tech is far better then the best tau tech, that same imperial tech is as much a mystery to the IOM as it would be to the Tau anyhow.

I would disagree on the C'Tans placement, in fact I wouldn't place them at all. This is because the C'Tan don't use Tech, they just 'do' what they do because they where born at the same time as the universe. They have an intrinsic understanding of the universe and how it works much like how Orks genetically know stuff. In the same way I wouldn't put daemons in a 'Best Psyker' tree because they don't *use* the warp, they *are* the warp.

My final thing is that Dark Eldar deserve to be above Craftworld Eldar, just edging into tier 1 above them. This is because CWE use psycho-engineering to accomplish their goals, while DE create all their science the 'old fashioned way'. Yet DE still have more advanced weaponry! They have a far better understanding of the webway, they can create alternate universes (To keep the stolen suns a second out of sync from the rest of the city), make use of Dark Matter, as well as all the haemonculi's weird stuff which seems magic but is pure science. I mean, they created a mirror, that shatters you! What kind of science goes into that! They can still extinguish suns, they can block out the light to an entire planet, they can turn 1/3 of the population into flesh eating super strong zombie things (see Iron Warriors). They take all the genius of the Eldar, but use it much more inventively. They should be above Eldar simply for doing all this, with no psykic powers.

When you talk about Tech Tree's with things like Chaos, you can't really default to what the minion is wielding as Tech, but more as the minion being tech itself, in relation to the Chaos God that wields it as a weapon, at that point.

Does that make sense?

That's how you discuss the God races in context with Technology.

Also, take note, that the boundary between Godhood and Technology can be razor thin at times, and can come down to simply ones knowledge and capacity for understanding of a thing. So, in the case of the Necrons, they're tech looks godly, but it's actually just super advanced tech. Perhaps so advanced it's merged with the physical/spiritual aspects of that race. And that's essentially the apex of technology. When machine and biology function seemlessly as one.

I don't see the issue, the imperials clearly have higher tech than the tau, over all the tau has more advanced tech across the board but the imperium is more technologically advanced overall, warp tech, Gene tech, medical tech (assumption) the only areas that tau seem to be more advanced is stable plasma,ion tech, drone tech (not a.i, have/had better), even the dreadnought is more advanced than the riptide (although not represented on tt), imperials also have better starships, miu, super weapons, psy tech.

 TheRedWingArmada wrote:
When you talk about Tech Tree's with things like Chaos, you can't really default to what the minion is wielding as Tech, but more as the minion being tech itself, in relation to the Chaos God that wields it as a weapon, at that point.

Does that make sense?

That's how you discuss the God races in context with Technology.

Also, take note, that the boundary between Godhood and Technology can be razor thin at times, and can come down to simply ones knowledge and capacity for understanding of a thing. So, in the case of the Necrons, they're tech looks godly, but it's actually just super advanced tech. Perhaps so advanced it's merged with the physical/spiritual aspects of that race. And that's essentially the apex of technology. When machine and biology function seemlessly as one.

Ok I see where you are coming from. The minion is the tech makes sense.

 Formosa wrote:
I don't see the issue, the imperials clearly have higher tech than the tau, over all the tau has more advanced tech across the board but the imperium is more technologically advanced overall, warp tech, Gene tech, medical tech (assumption) the only areas that tau seem to be more advanced is stable plasma,ion tech, drone tech (not a.i, have/had better), even the dreadnought is more advanced than the riptide (although not represented on tt), imperials also have better starships, miu, super weapons, psy tech.

This is a tough call really, because a lot of what the Imperium use is far beyond obsolete by standard means. Starting first and foremost with the fact that the Imperium uses solid munitions for their Space Marines, while the Tau are utilizing Plasma and Ion technologies. So space travel suffers for the Tau in terms of speed and such, but their travel is safer. They are also younger and have achieved this level of tech for their army. Also consider where the Imperium gets a lot of their tech. It's stolen! From themselves, as ridiculous as that sounds. That's why they can't work the crap. They killed everyone that knew how to use the machines when they took them. See: The Auretian Technocracy and the Interex as an example of how the Imperium appropriates a lot of its tech.

Here is something else to look at: The usage of Power Armor. In all reality, the Tau have this technology better suited than anything the Imperium have, including the Astartes Mark V Ceramite Plates. Sure the power armor of the Imperium is stout to say the least, but is it efficient? Not when you consider the mobility the Tau pack into their suits. And then how easily distribute-able their armor is. You don't see any IG equivalents in the Tau army, unless you try to justify the Kroot and they are physiologically superior to human biology.

So is the Imperium really more advanced than the Tau? Not really. It's more like a difference of scale at times in their empire. The Tau are young and already have incredible Tech they will only perfect. The Imperium has staggering tech that it can't properly utilize to it's fullest extent AND they're on the decline.

I agree with da001's scale earlier: Pre-Horus Heresy Imperium may have been over the Tau, but 40k Religious Zealotry Imperium definitely is not. However, I will put this on 40k Imperium as a testament to their technology. I said earlier that fusion of biological and mechanical components can be a mark of an advanced race? So advanced are the Old Ones, C'Tan, Necrons, Chaos, Etc. that they do this very thing? The Imperium does this two with there creation of Cherubs, the Servitors, Gene-Seed programs, etc. etc. etc. The Tau have not really worked this out yet. They are still in the phase of Biological and Mechanical Interface. Not so much fusion.

I think this was described in Tau Rail Cannons generating enough feedback to kill their gunners if they weren't careful. Super-advanced tech with stopping power; just not quiet perfected yet.

And as a Table Top example of how the Tau or more advanced than the Imperium? Simply put, they don't have plasma that explodes. lol I'd say that's a pretty important benchmark, even if flamers and melta's aren't as high a priority just yet.

If we're talking space marine vs tau tech then we have

Space marine
True anti grav
Gravweapons
Gene tech
Mk 7/8 armour IS better than battlesuit armour, takes up less space and uses less material to make one, it has the same vision suite and a more enhanced audio one (mainly due to marine itself) the power source I do not know as I do not know the what power the battlesuit use, armament is equivalent in both as marines can carry the same range of equipment the tau can, we also have articifer armour for a 2+ save with no increase in mass or noticeable size unlike the iridium armoured model.
Medical tech, tau have no narthecium equivalent, stim injectors are rare.
Dreadnoughts are more advanced than tau equivalents due to the cybernetics and miu.

But the whole point of this is to point out that imperial tech is higher up the tree than tau, but tau have better tech overall

I.e

Imperium tech level 4/5/6
Tau tech level 1/2/3/4/5

Now if go dark age tech it's
Humans 1/2/3//4/5/6/7/8/9 ad infinatum

The Dark Eldar should really be above the Craftworld Eldar.
Their weaponry is more advanced, they live in the Webway and they can extinguish suns, create black holes and all that kind of stuff. They even managed to 'steal' a sun. Come on, even the Necrons can't do that!
The Dark Eldar have retained much more of the Eldar technology from before the Fall and therefore they should be tier 1 IMO.

 Iron_Captain wrote:
The Dark Eldar should really be above the Craftworld Eldar.
Their weaponry is more advanced, they live in the Webway and they can extinguish suns, create black holes and all that kind of stuff. They even managed to 'steal' a sun. Come on, even the Necrons can't do that!
The Dark Eldar have retained much more of the Eldar technology from before the Fall and therefore they should be tier 1 IMO.

The Necrons pluck the heart of dying stars to power Tesseract Arks, so they can most certainly steal a star.

To Iron Captain

The necrons turn off suns, though your right about the Dark Eldar I forget about a lot of they could do.

 Gunhead1 wrote:

 Co'tor Shas wrote:

 Peregrine wrote:

Also if the tau could put plasma rifles and fusion blasters in the hands of firewarriors then they would already have done so.

Why? This is like saying that if real-world armies could put anti-tank missiles in the hands of every soldier they would already have done so. You're ignoring the strategic reasons for that decision and assuming it's all a matter of availability instead.

Yeah, the tau don't use integrated heavy weapons in their Fire Warrior teams, because of their combat doctrine.

Doesn't mean that with new weapons systems that combat doctrine doesn't change look at pathfinder squads. Now it could all be combat doctrine and that is why they have not reduced them in size or they just can't do it or the last reason could be is that GW wanted to do something different and not copy other armies that have those weapons in their infantry squads.

P.S. there not really heavy weapons I mean plasma is a gun and in game is rapid fire not heavy. Meltas are assault weapons not heavy. Missile launchers are heavy, lascannons are heavy, and other weapons of the like.

I think the main reason none of them are heavy is because they are all mounted only on battlesuits and vehicles. The burst cannon (fluff wise) can be weilded by a normal person because they are light for their size, and have almost no kick, but you have to think about ammunition and power supplies. They would have to have huge power packs on their backs, something which slows down the person holding it, and doesn't fit with taus doctrine of fast moving, and repositioning. Also a part of the reason for no integrated heavy weapons is the maxim atg the bottom of the page on pg 23 in the tau codex, "Our technology advances with the years; our tactics do not."


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Formosa wrote:
If we're talking space marine vs tau tech then we have

Space marine
True anti grav
Gravweapons
Gene tech
Mk 7/8 armour IS better than battlesuit armour, takes up less space and uses less material to make one, it has the same vision suite and a more enhanced audio one (mainly due to marine itself) the power source I do not know as I do not know the what power the battlesuit use, armament is equivalent in both as marines can carry the same range of equipment the tau can, we also have articifer armour for a 2+ save with no increase in mass or noticeable size unlike the iridium armoured model.
Medical tech, tau have no narthecium equivalent, stim injectors are rare.
Dreadnoughts are more advanced than tau equivalents due to the cybernetics and miu.

But the whole point of this is to point out that imperial tech is higher up the tree than tau, but tau have better tech overall

I.e

Imperium tech level 4/5/6
Tau tech level 1/2/3/4/5

Now if go dark age tech it's
Humans 1/2/3//4/5/6/7/8/9 ad infinatum

No offence meant but their is no real size difference for Iridium armor, it is just an extra layer of plating. You may be thinking of the commander suit, which is the XV8-05 Crisis 'Enforcer' Battlesuit, an entirely different mark of suit.
I do agree that the imperium does have some better tech, like warp drive and titans, but they do not understand how warp drives work (they just follow certain rituals, like pushing the large red button wit the mystic word "ON", after sacrificing a goat in front of it), and titans are REALLY expensive. Tau's answer to titans was to take existing flyers (Tiger sharks), and retrofit them with existing guns (heavy rail guns), making a multi-purpose titan-killer for the fraction of the cost of a titan (also, being flyers they are hard to hit).
The impurium generally has very strong tech, but it is crude. Tau tech is sometimes weaker, but it is generally easily producible, safer, more refined, and often stronger than the imperium's tech.

 Co'tor Shas wrote:

 Gunhead1 wrote:

 Co'tor Shas wrote:

 Peregrine wrote:

Also if the tau could put plasma rifles and fusion blasters in the hands of firewarriors then they would already have done so.

Why? This is like saying that if real-world armies could put anti-tank missiles in the hands of every soldier they would already have done so. You're ignoring the strategic reasons for that decision and assuming it's all a matter of availability instead.

Yeah, the tau don't use integrated heavy weapons in their Fire Warrior teams, because of their combat doctrine.

Doesn't mean that with new weapons systems that combat doctrine doesn't change look at pathfinder squads. Now it could all be combat doctrine and that is why they have not reduced them in size or they just can't do it or the last reason could be is that GW wanted to do something different and not copy other armies that have those weapons in their infantry squads.

P.S. there not really heavy weapons I mean plasma is a gun and in game is rapid fire not heavy. Meltas are assault weapons not heavy. Missile launchers are heavy, lascannons are heavy, and other weapons of the like.

I think the main reason none of them are heavy is because they are all mounted only on battlesuits and vehicles. The burst cannon (fluff wise) can be weilded by a normal person because they are light for their size, and have almost no kick, but you have to think about ammunition and power supplies. They would have to have huge power packs on their backs, something which slows down the person holding it, and doesn't fit with taus doctrine of fast moving, and repositioning. Also a part of the reason for no integrated heavy weapons is the maxim atg the bottom of the page on pg 23 in the tau codex, "Our technology advances with the years; our tactics do not."


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Formosa wrote:
If we're talking space marine vs tau tech then we have

Space marine
True anti grav
Gravweapons
Gene tech
Mk 7/8 armour IS better than battlesuit armour, takes up less space and uses less material to make one, it has the same vision suite and a more enhanced audio one (mainly due to marine itself) the power source I do not know as I do not know the what power the battlesuit use, armament is equivalent in both as marines can carry the same range of equipment the tau can, we also have articifer armour for a 2+ save with no increase in mass or noticeable size unlike the iridium armoured model.
Medical tech, tau have no narthecium equivalent, stim injectors are rare.
Dreadnoughts are more advanced than tau equivalents due to the cybernetics and miu.

But the whole point of this is to point out that imperial tech is higher up the tree than tau, but tau have better tech overall

I.e

Imperium tech level 4/5/6
Tau tech level 1/2/3/4/5

Now if go dark age tech it's
Humans 1/2/3//4/5/6/7/8/9 ad infinatum

No offence meant but their is no real size difference for Iridium armor, it is just an extra layer of plating. You may be thinking of the commander suit, which is the XV8-05 Crisis 'Enforcer' Battlesuit, an entirely different mark of suit.
I do agree that the imperium does have some better tech, like warp drive and titans, but they do not understand how warp drives work (they just follow certain rituals, like pushing the large red button wit the mystic word "ON", after sacrificing a goat in front of it), and titans are REALLY expensive. Tau's answer to titans was to take existing flyers (Tiger sharks), and retrofit them with existing guns (heavy rail guns), making a multi-purpose titan-killer for the fraction of the cost of a titan (also, being flyers they are hard to hit).
The impurium generally has very strong tech, but it is crude. Tau tech is sometimes weaker, but it is generally easily producible, safer, more refined, and often stronger than the imperium's tech.

Fair points on tau weapons and tactics though you think that some tactics would have to change to meet different foes, but why fix what's not broken.

Also the riptide is also an answer to titans if i remember correctly don't have the codex with me and the riptides were something that almost didn't happen due to cost and is hard to make. The IOM makes new space ships time depends on the fluff, but they have to understand how to make wrap engines otherwise they couldn't make more ships. The crew taking care of the engines don't really need to know how it works just how to maintain it.

 Gunhead1 wrote:

The IOM makes new space ships time depends on the fluff, but they have to understand how to make wrap engines otherwise they couldn't make more ships.

Not really, that's what they have STCs for.

By new I mean the same thing just replacing and adding to the fleet. I don't believe STCs to be the answer because wrap engines have been around a long time as far as i know even during the time of the age of strife. I believe they know how to make them.

In regards to why Tau Tactics have advanced slower than their technology is because they are only just now being threatened by races that challenge their tactics and technology. None worse than the Daemons they can't perceive or understand.

Imagine how frightening that is for a young race like the Tau? It's like the early sailors hitting the ocean at the risk of sea monsters eating your boat or falling out off the edge of the universe.

Still though, we're talking about level of technology, and the most important thing to be cited is that Tau Tech is improving. The Imperium is not. It's stuck in scavenger mode because crap like their weapons testing planet getting attacked by Khorne because the guns sounded nice.

Regarding the Adeptus Mechanicus, there is a guy on 1d4Chan who wrote what is, I think, the best description of what their status is and why things are the way they are in the Imperium.

http://1d4chan.org/wiki/Adeptus_Mechanicus

Skip down to the part that begins "Why Everything Is So Grimdark?"

In short? While the AdMech might be hording technology, they aren't hording some golden paradise for humanity. Things in the Imperium are the way that they are and it is the absolute best option of all the sh*tty options available.

It's a fallacy that imperial tech does not develop, it does and there are countless sources that show this, however the problem is with who develops it not that it happens at all, the ad mech are very much like fantasy dwarfs, they will use tried and tested equipment to the detriment of newer tech and only grudgingly accept it after centuries.

Case in point
Storm shields
land speeder typhoons
annihilator predators
Land raider redeemer/crusader
terminator armour (that's right over the last 10k years there have been several distinct types, similar to the battlesuits tau use)
Power armour
Lasguns
Bolters
thunderfire cannons

Only a few of these existed during the great crusade, so that it development in the last 10k years, there are more of course.

 Formosa wrote:
It's a fallacy that imperial tech does not develop, it does and there are countless sources that show this, however the problem is with who develops it not that it happens at all, the ad mech are very much like fantasy dwarfs, they will use tried and tested equipment to the detriment of newer tech and only grudgingly accept it after centuries.

Case in point
Storm shields
land speeder typhoons
annihilator predators
Land raider redeemer/crusader
terminator armour (that's right over the last 10k years there have been several distinct types, similar to the battlesuits tau use)
Power armour
Lasguns
Bolters
thunderfire cannons

Only a few of these existed during the great crusade, so that it development in the last 10k years, there are more of course.

What?! Most of that exists (per Forgeworld anyways) during the Heresy and comes from the Dark Age of Technology!

Bolters have always been the standard gun of the Space Marine. Same with Power Armor (Mark I through V). Terminator Armor is also described as being relics that most cannot even fully operate, let alone understand. Storm Shields? Breaching Shields.

This all sounds like scavenging. Not really innovation, though like I said before, I know they do develope weapons and such because Chaos has attacked those planets before. lol

Storm shields were invented by the salamanders during the heresy

Developing different marks of armour with improvements over the last mark is exactly what tau do, power armour mark 1-8 and articifer armour, xv80-88 etc are developments of previous armour and are thus scavenging.

Terminator armour are fully operational I do not know what you get that from, they are hard to produce and rare if that's what you mean, ot, cataphractii armour is mk1 I think, then we have the mini contemptors armour, then we have the armour the old metal minis are made of, recently we have the extra plates modern terminator armour and lastly grey knight terminator armour. That development.

"most of that existed during the great crusade"
The things that did not
Storm shiels
Pred annihilaters
Land raider redeemer
crusader
Land speeder typhoons
These were developed either during the horus heresy or the time that followed

 TheRedWingArmada wrote:
In regards to why Tau Tactics have advanced slower than their technology is because they are only just now being threatened by races that challenge their tactics and technology. None worse than the Daemons they can't perceive or understand.

Imagine how frightening that is for a young race like the Tau? It's like the early sailors hitting the ocean at the risk of sea monsters eating your boat or falling out off the edge of the universe.

Still though, we're talking about level of technology, and the most important thing to be cited is that Tau Tech is improving. The Imperium is not. It's stuck in scavenger mode because crap like their weapons testing planet getting attacked by Khorne because the guns sounded nice.

Makes sense. Tau tech is really the only tech that is advancing much at all.

Also forgot that bolters were invented to replace volkite tech, we
Have several types of bolters with differing firing rates, calibers, range, penetration power, but that's not innovation, thats scavenging :/

Best Tech
Necron
Eldar

Second best tech
Tau

3 best tech
IOM

4th best tech
orks

5th best tech
Tyranid (whats tech?)

 Gunhead1 wrote:
By new I mean the same thing just replacing and adding to the fleet. I don't believe STCs to be the answer because wrap engines have been around a long time as far as i know even during the time of the age of strife. I believe they know how to make them.

The AdMech understand that, to make a Warp Engine, you insert this Tab A into that Slot B and you will probably end up with a Warp Engine. They don't understand the underlying principles of Warp Engine design or construction. What they do know is rote memorization of tasks. "Press this button, pull that lever, chant this prayer, strike that activation rune, and the Machine will serve you" sort of stuff. The AdMech, by and large, does not *understand* the technology they possess, they can simply replicate it because they have figured out how to build the component parts and assemble them like a jigsaw puzzle.

This is why the AdMech plunders derelict ships and Space Hulks. They can recover grav-plating (which provides artificial gravity on starships... a technology lost to the Imperium) and Warp Engines, as well as other pre-Heresy technologies that may otherwise be lost in the Imperium.

Psi where are you getting all that, grav plating is not lost to the imperium, infact it's one of the most common types of tech used in starships, anti grav civilian transport (yep they exist in 40k) land speeders.

Also the ad mech do understand how warp engines work, there are several stories where an ad mech priest comments on the loss of efficiency compared to earlier models and how more recent tech has enabled better development of transference to and from the warp.

Gents the imperium does advance, slowly but it happens, stop with all the fan fiction about how they do not ever advance, keyword l...ever

I recall from Battlefleet:Gothic that Orks are arguably more advanced in terms of teleportation and shielding than anyone other than the Necrons; in regards to shielding, they're probably more advanced than the 'crons are.

 Melissia wrote:
I recall from Battlefleet:Gothic that Orks are arguably more advanced in terms of teleportation and shielding than anyone other than the Necrons; in regards to shielding, they're probably more advanced than the 'crons are.

Yep totally correct mellisia, ork tech also advances to the threat they face so vs necrons they would have a horrifying tech level, but still ded orky

Majsharan wrote:
Best Tech
Necron
Eldar

Second best tech
Tau

3 best tech
IOM

4th best tech
orks

5th best tech
Tyranid (whats tech?)

The tyranids use bio tech its not mechanical, but its is tech and its freaking good tech what other race uses bio space ships and makes an army out their enemies corpses. What is with this bug hate.

 Gunhead1 wrote:
The tyranids use bio tech its not mechanical, but its is tech and its freaking good tech what other race uses bio space ships and makes an army out their enemies corpses. What is with this bug hate.

In my point of view, that's biology. Does a whale have better 'bio tech' than me because it can dive deeper than me? Does a spider have better 'bio tech' than me because it can spin webs and develop incredibly powerful venoms?

Tyranids are vastly superior biologically make up that allows them to evolve and change at a stupendous rate.

 uk_crow wrote:

 Gunhead1 wrote:
The tyranids use bio tech its not mechanical, but its is tech and its freaking good tech what other race uses bio space ships and makes an army out their enemies corpses. What is with this bug hate.

In my point of view, that's biology. Does a whale have better 'bio tech' than me because it can dive deeper than me? Does a spider have better 'bio tech' than me because it can spin webs and develop incredibly powerful venoms?

Tyranids are vastly superior biologically make up that allows them to evolve and change at a stupendous rate.

I can understand that, but to me the same can be said of the Orks everything that they do tech wise is been imprinted into their genes so that in itself is bio tech. Natural biology doesn't led to what the tyranids are, not saying it couldn't happen, but at the same time they could have been made into a weapon that just got out of control. Also look at space marines there is a lot of bio tech that went into those guys.

 Formosa wrote:
Psi where are you getting all that, grav plating is not lost to the imperium, infact it's one of the most common types of tech used in starships, anti grav civilian transport (yep they exist in 40k) land speeders.

Also the ad mech do understand how warp engines work, there are several stories where an ad mech priest comments on the loss of efficiency compared to earlier models and how more recent tech has enabled better development of transference to and from the warp.

Gents the imperium does advance, slowly but it happens, stop with all the fan fiction about how they do not ever advance, keyword l...ever

From: http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Land_Speeder#.UpOimCfAaEo

Land Speeders are based on STC data recovered in M31 by the famous Techno-archaeologist Arkhan Land, and afterwards became widely produced and used throughout the Imperium. Land Speeders were also originally used by the Imperial Guard, but since then the plasma and anti-gravity technologies required to produce them have become increasingly rare and hard to maintain.[1] Only extremely resource rich planets like Ryza or organisations such as the Space Marines can afford to create them.

The anti-gravitic plates which give the Land Speeder its ability to fly remains a mystery restricted mostly to the Tech-Magos of the Adeptus Mechanicus.

From: http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Imperial_Jetbike#.UpOjBifAaEo

After the Horus Heresy however, the ability to produce them was eventually lost and now only one Imperial jetbike is known to exist.

The technology used in the production of these jetbikes has long since been lost to the Imperium. The only jetbike known to survive into the 41st Millennium is Corvex, used by the Grand Master of the Ravenwing company of the Dark Angels chapter, currently Sammael.

This leads us to believe that all grav/anti-grav tech is not the same (and, in fact, cannot be). These two vehicles make use of anti-grav technology... that has nothing to do with technology that creates a stable gravitic field that allows you to walk on a kilometer long spaceship.

 Psienesis wrote:
Regarding the Adeptus Mechanicus, there is a guy on 1d4Chan who wrote what is, I think, the best description of what their status is and why things are the way they are in the Imperium.

http://1d4chan.org/wiki/Adeptus_Mechanicus

Skip down to the part that begins "Why Everything Is So Grimdark?"

In short? While the AdMech might be hording technology, they aren't hording some golden paradise for humanity. Things in the Imperium are the way that they are and it is the absolute best option of all the sh*tty options available.

That's a pretty epic way of putting it. Best I have ever heard of grimdark.

Well the lexi is wrong (surprise surprise) the eisenhorn books feature a whole subsector that uses anti grav civilian vehicles, so does ravenor, whole guard regiments use anti grav tech (crude but they exist) there are grav fields used on heavy weapons and in terminator armour to help stabilise them, all starships use grav stabilizers across the whole ship and if this tech was so rare then there is no way that there would be enough to outfit even the massive frigates the imperials use, the arkan land bit of fluff is very old (from the index astartes land raider white dwarf) aswell so was pre eisenhorn I believe.

The issue with the jetbike isn't the stabilizer that lifts it, its the power sauce, materials and weapon systems, the hh books tell us that even during the great crusade these were hard to build.

And grav/anti grav tech in every sci fi setting ever is the same thing, it's simply reversing the gravitational field from pulling to pushing or off completely, this is also how land speeders adjust lift.

Another piece of kit that is mass produced is the graviton/grav guns, these are able to adjust the gravitational field of an object at range, nothing the tau have as far as I know comes close to this, then we have conversion beamers, lightning guns, dark light cannons, viral tech, neutron lasers and localised rad tech and phosphex... When we compare weapons of war tau seem woefully outclassed by the high end imperial tech, but basic tech we have pulse rifles, drones, etc,

The imperials out tech tau at the top end as I and others have said, but do not have the basic level if tech tau have, hence

Imprial 4/5/6
Tau 1/2/3/4

Tau have the building blocks to work from, the imperials have what they have left, some understood and able to be improved upon, others barely understood and feared.

 Gunhead1 wrote:

 uk_crow wrote:

 Gunhead1 wrote:
The tyranids use bio tech its not mechanical, but its is tech and its freaking good tech what other race uses bio space ships and makes an army out their enemies corpses. What is with this bug hate.

In my point of view, that's biology. Does a whale have better 'bio tech' than me because it can dive deeper than me? Does a spider have better 'bio tech' than me because it can spin webs and develop incredibly powerful venoms?

Tyranids are vastly superior biologically make up that allows them to evolve and change at a stupendous rate.

I can understand that, but to me the same can be said of the Orks everything that they do tech wise is been imprinted into their genes so that in itself is bio tech. Natural biology doesn't led to what the tyranids are, not saying it couldn't happen, but at the same time they could have been made into a weapon that just got out of control. Also look at space marines there is a lot of bio tech that went into those guys.

With Orks i think how mechanical knowledge is imprinted in their genes is just like how our body knows how to breath automatically and blink etc, granted on a far more advanced scale, but still done naturally with no engineering of the genes by an outside entity for every single Ork. With Tyranids it is still natural biology that is manipulated to deal with new situations but not using technology it just just evolution to the lifeforms or problem it encounters. Just as birds beaks evolved over thousands of years to excel at eating a specific food type depending in the species, Tyranids do that just at a meteoric rate.
With SM i fully agree that is biotech, gene therapy and genetic modification to make them super soldiers, using technology as the manipulator, not coming from a natural manipulation technique.

 Formosa wrote:
Well the lexi is wrong (surprise surprise) the eisenhorn books feature a whole subsector that uses anti grav civilian vehicles, so does ravenor, whole guard regiments use anti grav tech (crude but they exist) there are grav fields used on heavy weapons and in terminator armour to help stabilise them, all starships use grav stabilizers across the whole ship and if this tech was so rare then there is no way that there would be enough to outfit even the massive frigates the imperials use, the arkan land bit of fluff is very old (from the index astartes land raider white dwarf) aswell so was pre eisenhorn I believe.

The issue with the jetbike isn't the stabilizer that lifts it, its the power sauce, materials and weapon systems, the hh books tell us that even during the great crusade these were hard to build.

And grav/anti grav tech in every sci fi setting ever is the same thing, it's simply reversing the gravitational field from pulling to pushing or off completely, this is also how land speeders adjust lift.

Another piece of kit that is mass produced is the graviton/grav guns, these are able to adjust the gravitational field of an object at range, nothing the tau have as far as I know comes close to this, then we have conversion beamers, lightning guns, dark light cannons, viral tech, neutron lasers and localised rad tech and phosphex... When we compare weapons of war tau seem woefully outclassed by the high end imperial tech, but basic tech we have pulse rifles, drones, etc,

The imperials out tech tau at the top end as I and others have said, but do not have the basic level if tech tau have, hence

Imprial 4/5/6
Tau 1/2/3/4

Tau have the building blocks to work from, the imperials have what they have left, some understood and able to be improved upon, others barely understood and feared.

Power sauce? Like, a condiment for your chips? Does Sammael's jetbike run on mayonnaise and Thousand Island dressing?

The rest of the tech you've listed there, especially the conversion beamers, are pre-Heresy in origin. Not new guns, and are all considered "rare relics".

"A Grav-gun, also known as a Graviton Gun, is a devastating weapon employed by the Adeptus Astartes based on ancient and forgotten technology dating back to the time of the Dark Age of Technology."

This is not new tech to the Imperium, it's a recovered relic that they probably don't understand how it works, they just know if they put Tab A into Slot B, they get one.

 uk_crow wrote:

 Gunhead1 wrote:

 uk_crow wrote:

 Gunhead1 wrote:
The tyranids use bio tech its not mechanical, but its is tech and its freaking good tech what other race uses bio space ships and makes an army out their enemies corpses. What is with this bug hate.

In my point of view, that's biology. Does a whale have better 'bio tech' than me because it can dive deeper than me? Does a spider have better 'bio tech' than me because it can spin webs and develop incredibly powerful venoms?

Tyranids are vastly superior biologically make up that allows them to evolve and change at a stupendous rate.

I can understand that, but to me the same can be said of the Orks everything that they do tech wise is been imprinted into their genes so that in itself is bio tech. Natural biology doesn't led to what the tyranids are, not saying it couldn't happen, but at the same time they could have been made into a weapon that just got out of control. Also look at space marines there is a lot of bio tech that went into those guys.

With Orks i think how mechanical knowledge is imprinted in their genes is just like how our body knows how to breath automatically and blink etc, granted on a far more advanced scale, but still done naturally with no engineering of the genes by an outside entity for every single Ork. With Tyranids it is still natural biology that is manipulated to deal with new situations but not using technology it just just evolution to the lifeforms or problem it encounters. Just as birds beaks evolved over thousands of years to excel at eating a specific food type depending in the species, Tyranids do that just at a meteoric rate.
With SM i fully agree that is biotech, gene therapy and genetic modification to make them super soldiers, using technology as the manipulator, not coming from a natural manipulation technique.

.
The thing is that the Tyranids biology is complexly unnatural, their evolution is guided in contrast with natural one which is "blind". They are also incredible efficient (it is actually impossible to be that efficient in RL) and their organism can match the war engines of other species. In many ways a Carnifex is more similar to a tank than to a RL animal.

Well, let's not compare RL animals from a given biosphere to aliens from another galaxy. That is worse than an apples-to-oranges comparison, because at least those two fruits exist within the same operating conditions.

Hmm, maybe what really defines Tyranids biology as bio-technology is that there is an intelligence behind it.

Personally, since all of the Tyranid bio-weapons have, in almost every case, a technological equivalent, one could make comparisons between their "tech" and the tech of other races.

You could, for example, look at the capabilities and functions of a Spore Mine and compare it to the mines and seeker-drones of other factions and draw parallels of ability to see which has the better mine.

 Psienesis wrote:

 Formosa wrote:
Well the lexi is wrong (surprise surprise) the eisenhorn books feature a whole subsector that uses anti grav civilian vehicles, so does ravenor, whole guard regiments use anti grav tech (crude but they exist) there are grav fields used on heavy weapons and in terminator armour to help stabilise them, all starships use grav stabilizers across the whole ship and if this tech was so rare then there is no way that there would be enough to outfit even the massive frigates the imperials use, the arkan land bit of fluff is very old (from the index astartes land raider white dwarf) aswell so was pre eisenhorn I believe.

The issue with the jetbike isn't the stabilizer that lifts it, its the power sauce, materials and weapon systems, the hh books tell us that even during the great crusade these were hard to build.

And grav/anti grav tech in every sci fi setting ever is the same thing, it's simply reversing the gravitational field from pulling to pushing or off completely, this is also how land speeders adjust lift.

Another piece of kit that is mass produced is the graviton/grav guns, these are able to adjust the gravitational field of an object at range, nothing the tau have as far as I know comes close to this, then we have conversion beamers, lightning guns, dark light cannons, viral tech, neutron lasers and localised rad tech and phosphex... When we compare weapons of war tau seem woefully outclassed by the high end imperial tech, but basic tech we have pulse rifles, drones, etc,

The imperials out tech tau at the top end as I and others have said, but do not have the basic level if tech tau have, hence

Imprial 4/5/6
Tau 1/2/3/4

Tau have the building blocks to work from, the imperials have what they have left, some understood and able to be improved upon, others barely understood and feared.

Power sauce? Like, a condiment for your chips? Does Sammael's jetbike run on mayonnaise and Thousand Island dressing?

The rest of the tech you've listed there, especially the conversion beamers, are pre-Heresy in origin. Not new guns, and are all considered "rare relics".

"A Grav-gun, also known as a Graviton Gun, is a devastating weapon employed by the Adeptus Astartes based on ancient and forgotten technology dating back to the time of the Dark Age of Technology."

This is not new tech to the Imperium, it's a recovered relic that they probably don't understand how it works, they just know if they put Tab A into Slot B, they get one.

That was just a list of superior tech the tau have no equivalent off, and a separate paragraph so not saying they are items that have been upgraded

Thanks for proving my point on sammaels bikes power saurce and correcting my spelling haha

Grav weapons are still mass produced even if it is lost tech, million space marine chapters and every squad can have one like plasma weapons, rare but clearly massed produced, and I never said it was new just a bit of tech tau do not have an equivalent of and do not have the tech level to build as far as we know.

Like it or lump it guys, tau simply don't have the high end tech the imperials do, they have a better understanding of tech, innovate faster and have a better baseline tech, none of this equals better overall tech

 Formosa wrote:

 Psienesis wrote:

 Formosa wrote:
Well the lexi is wrong (surprise surprise) the eisenhorn books feature a whole subsector that uses anti grav civilian vehicles, so does ravenor, whole guard regiments use anti grav tech (crude but they exist) there are grav fields used on heavy weapons and in terminator armour to help stabilise them, all starships use grav stabilizers across the whole ship and if this tech was so rare then there is no way that there would be enough to outfit even the massive frigates the imperials use, the arkan land bit of fluff is very old (from the index astartes land raider white dwarf) aswell so was pre eisenhorn I believe.

The issue with the jetbike isn't the stabilizer that lifts it, its the power sauce, materials and weapon systems, the hh books tell us that even during the great crusade these were hard to build.

And grav/anti grav tech in every sci fi setting ever is the same thing, it's simply reversing the gravitational field from pulling to pushing or off completely, this is also how land speeders adjust lift.

Another piece of kit that is mass produced is the graviton/grav guns, these are able to adjust the gravitational field of an object at range, nothing the tau have as far as I know comes close to this, then we have conversion beamers, lightning guns, dark light cannons, viral tech, neutron lasers and localised rad tech and phosphex... When we compare weapons of war tau seem woefully outclassed by the high end imperial tech, but basic tech we have pulse rifles, drones, etc,

The imperials out tech tau at the top end as I and others have said, but do not have the basic level if tech tau have, hence

Imprial 4/5/6
Tau 1/2/3/4

Tau have the building blocks to work from, the imperials have what they have left, some understood and able to be improved upon, others barely understood and feared.

Power sauce? Like, a condiment for your chips? Does Sammael's jetbike run on mayonnaise and Thousand Island dressing?

The rest of the tech you've listed there, especially the conversion beamers, are pre-Heresy in origin. Not new guns, and are all considered "rare relics".

"A Grav-gun, also known as a Graviton Gun, is a devastating weapon employed by the Adeptus Astartes based on ancient and forgotten technology dating back to the time of the Dark Age of Technology."

This is not new tech to the Imperium, it's a recovered relic that they probably don't understand how it works, they just know if they put Tab A into Slot B, they get one.

That was just a list of superior tech the tau have no equivalent off, and a separate paragraph so not saying they are items that have been upgraded

Thanks for proving my point on sammaels bikes power saurce and correcting my spelling haha

Grav weapons are still mass produced even if it is lost tech, million space marine chapters and every squad can have one like plasma weapons, rare but clearly massed produced, and I never said it was new just a bit of tech tau do not have an equivalent of and do not have the tech level to build as far as we know.

Like it or lump it guys, tau simply don't have the high end tech the imperials do, they have a better understanding of tech, innovate faster and have a better baseline tech, none of this equals better overall tech

It depends on whether you are looking for the best tech, no matter how rare or impossible to produce (Imp) or better tech average (Tau). I think what needs to be defined, is if we are looking ate average tech or best tech. By your reasoning a third world country in which most people have never even seen an electricity, but one person has the most advanced tech in the world is more technically advanced than america or Britain.

Mass produced? The Codex says that they're entrusted only to the most-senior of Tech Marines.

million space marine chapters

Uh, there's only one million Space Marines *total*. One thousand Chapters of one thousand Marines (by the Codex. Yes, some Chapters are much larger than others... many have 50 guys or less left.). You have squads of 5 Marines, and let's assume, for sake of argument, that they break up every Chapter into 5-man squads. That's 200 squads per Chapter. Each one gets 1 Grav-Gun. That's 200,000 grav-guns existing *in the entire Imperium*.

That's an *incredibly* rare piece of equipment on a galactic scale.

 Tyran wrote:
Hmm, maybe what really defines Tyranids biology as bio-technology is that there is an intelligence behind it.

To put it precisely, what makes Tyrannid technology technology, and not just animal life, is that it is designed. Domesticate a wolf - that's not technology. Selectively breed it over generations to get a spaniel - you've started to take some steps but it's still not technology. Splice genes together in a test-tube to create a dog with octopus tentacles - that's technology.

Tyranids have a tech tree. The problem is that it is a different tree to everyone else's. It's growing alongside and we can say it's taller or wider than the other, but it's very difficult to compare whether an venom cannon is more or less advanced than a bolter - they're really different things. All you can really do is assess it on effectiveness. And I agree with the OP that this is the best way to approach it - to say: "Tyranids have a way of doing X, humans do not, therefore Tyranids gain +1 on the Tech Tree comparison for that". Where I disagree is that the OP seems inclined to assess everything based on raw power and that is not the same as tech tree. Yes, a hundred thousand swarming critters might overwhelm a Tau battleline, but that doesn't mean that an individual critter that can spit acid twenty feet is technologically superior to the Tau in its suit. Do not confuse numbers or resources with advancement. Tyranids are hard to place, but I think I'd put them somewhere in the middle. They're impressive, but I think some have mistaken numbers and scale, for sophistication. Much of what they rely on is psychic which I'm not classing as technology.

The Tau vs. IoM, is two different arguments muddled up. The IoM has very powerful technology, hugely advanced. The IoM understands relatively little of it and it is not widely distributed. The Tau have pretty good technology but it is also understood and pervasive. I would actually rate the IoM higher than the Tau in raw terms. The Tau, after all, are perhaps a few centuries ahead of where we are in the real world. It wont be a hundred years before we have very capable automated drones that exceed the capabilities of human warriors in many ways. Exosuits? Already starting to come within our reach (chief problem is going to be power-source). Whereas the IoM is thousands and thousands of years ahead of us. There are million incredible secrets of technology embedded in every space craft and titan, that I don't think the Tau have even guessed at yet. But in terms of understanding technology, the Tau are far ahead of the Imperium and accelerating. And the knowledge is disseminated, not hoarded by an insular cabal of tech-fetishists.

My own ranking would be something like this:

0: C'tan, Old Ones.
1a: Necron
1b: Eldar
2: IoM, Tyranids
3: Tau, Orks

Deamons, et al. I omit from the list - that is not technology.

Note, I put the Necrons and Eldar as A and B in the same category to indicate that I think they are very close and there's a fair degree of overlap between the two. The Necrons have things the Eldar probably can't do or do as easily, but the Eldar can do a lot of it (especially Dark Eldar who have a bit of an edge over their craftworld cousins). The Necrons aren't so much above the Eldar as they are two-foot taller. Both are substantially above the IoM not only because they can do more, but because they actually understand their technology and it is widely available amongst them. Yes, I put the IoM above the Tau. There is simply much they can do that the Tau can not. And I'm assessing this on what technology they actually have, not the cultures that use it. Which has the best technology? You with the multi-core computer you have in front of you, or Henry Ford with the four-cylinder motorcar that he designed himself? For all that Henry Ford is a better engineer than you (probably), the answer is you. Even if you only bought / were given the computer and work it just because you know this chip here goes into that socket there whilst reciting the Holy Motherboard Layout Diagram.

Orks - no, sorry. I don't accept they have god like technology. A lot of advanced stuff is buried in their genes and some of it others don't necessarily understand, but it is patchy and crude. Yes, I said it - crude. Tau are not, imo, super-technologically sophisticated. What they are, is super-users of technology. That every Tau is armed to the teeth with cool toys, doesn't make them more advanced than a team of marines with a gravgun between them. Breadth is not height.

My opinion.

 Formosa wrote:
If we're talking space marine vs tau tech then we have

Space marine
True anti grav
Gravweapons
Gene tech
Mk 7/8 armour IS better than battlesuit armour, takes up less space and uses less material to make one, it has the same vision suite and a more enhanced audio one (mainly due to marine itself) the power source I do not know as I do not know the what power the battlesuit use, armament is equivalent in both as marines can carry the same range of equipment the tau can, we also have articifer armour for a 2+ save with no increase in mass or noticeable size unlike the iridium armoured model.
Medical tech, tau have no narthecium equivalent, stim injectors are rare.
Dreadnoughts are more advanced than tau equivalents due to the cybernetics and miu.

But the whole point of this is to point out that imperial tech is higher up the tree than tau, but tau have better tech overall

I.e

Imperium tech level 4/5/6
Tau tech level 1/2/3/4/5

Now if go dark age tech it's
Humans 1/2/3//4/5/6/7/8/9 ad infinatum

The Tau don't gene splice because they find it somewhat crude, as a race they have already genetically altered themselves in terms of evolution, so the Marine point is moot.

Standard transport is a skimmer with antigrav vs a Rhino or Chimera, so your anti-grav point is wrong.

As to more advanced battle armor, no. The Tau battlesuit has been downgraded somewhat, where as Marines used to have limited range Auspexes, all battlesuits used to come with an unlimited range auspex. Lots of fun telling Tyranid players they had to reveal their lictors from the get go. A useful and little used rule. It is also more mobile and can pack a larger suite of weapons. So not inferior at all (better sensors, better mobility, better strength and protective abilities, larger range of standard armaments, etc)

Medical tech - We do know the Tau make use of various cybernetic devices, but nothing as crude as many of the Imperial ones. We've seen examples of eyes and limbs, that generally work with less bugs than Imperial models, so this point is also moot.

Dreadnoughts would be distasteful to the Tau, reanimating the dead like that isn't their mo. However, even a normal battlesuit is able to be configured to let even quadriplegics pilot them. Additionally, the Tau can and do use variations on the StarWars Holocron, that map out a Tau's brain and let him/her guide and act long after they are dead. See Commander Puretide, Puretide Neuro Engram, one of Farsight's 'Eight'. So this point is also wrong and moot.

Medical - In what way are they inferior? Unlike needing to use Dreadnoughts, they can often save such Tau from 'dying' in the first place and fighting on as living corpses stuck in a dreadnought. Similarly wounded individuals that are saved are not forced to remain in such tombs, but often get out and about with cybernetic enhancements to replace lost organs.

The Tau don't have warp travel per say, but then their means of space travel is safer and quicker over very short distances (no need to risk goofy laws of time jumping across small distances).

The Imperium does have certain bits of Dark Age tech that the Tau might not match, but then the Imperium cannot produce safe and efficient plasma rifles for every trooper (the pulse rifle is a plasma weapon, that fires plasma, meaning every Firewarrior wields a plasma gun of sorts).

Tau are not, imo, super-technologically sophisticated. What they are, is super-users of technology. That every Tau is armed to the teeth with cool toys, doesn't make them more advanced than a team of marines with a gravgun between them. Breadth is not height.

The Tau, however, have never needed to build Titans, or grav-guns. This is not to say that they can't, but they are just now expanding into the stars and just now getting into the wars and such that plagued pre-Imperial humanity in its colonization of the stars. The Tau do not have tens of thousands of years of constant warfare to drive the weapons technology that the Imperium has had (and lost).

However, when we look at things like Crisis Suits and compare them to Power Armor, we see that the Crisis Suit is far-and-away more advanced. Same if we compare the pulse-rifle to the lasgun or the bolter.

It is inevitable that, if the Tau decide to develop a grav-gun weapon, it will almost assuredly be better than those the Imperium manages to bang out.

Co tor that is not my logic, my logic is that that the imperials have a wider range of superior tech across the entire length of the imperium than the tau have, to use your analogy if that 3rd world country had masses of ultra hight tech compared to the relatively small amount of high tech, then yes I would say overall it's technology is more advanced and it clearly has no bearing on the bottom level of that culture.

The million chapters was my derp I meant space marines, and yes the grav guns are incredibly rare but it still represents tech the tau have no answer to.

 Formosa wrote:
Storm shields were invented by the salamanders during the heresy

Developing different marks of armour with improvements over the last mark is exactly what tau do, power armour mark 1-8 and articifer armour, xv80-88 etc are developments of previous armour and are thus scavenging.

Terminator armour are fully operational I do not know what you get that from, they are hard to produce and rare if that's what you mean, ot, cataphractii armour is mk1 I think, then we have the mini contemptors armour, then we have the armour the old metal minis are made of, recently we have the extra plates modern terminator armour and lastly grey knight terminator armour. That development.

"most of that existed during the great crusade"
The things that did not
Storm shiels
Pred annihilaters
Land raider redeemer
crusader
Land speeder typhoons
These were developed either during the horus heresy or the time that followed

Everything you note there are STC constructs, and some of them are still not in use by all forms of the Imperium as being 'to newly discovered' and thus not 'vetted' enough. So, not invented by the Imperium at all, but rather recovered from the Dark Age of Technology.

 Maniac_nmt wrote:

 Formosa wrote:
Storm shields were invented by the salamanders during the heresy

Developing different marks of armour with improvements over the last mark is exactly what tau do, power armour mark 1-8 and articifer armour, xv80-88 etc are developments of previous armour and are thus scavenging.

Terminator armour are fully operational I do not know what you get that from, they are hard to produce and rare if that's what you mean, ot, cataphractii armour is mk1 I think, then we have the mini contemptors armour, then we have the armour the old metal minis are made of, recently we have the extra plates modern terminator armour and lastly grey knight terminator armour. That development.

"most of that existed during the great crusade"
The things that did not
Storm shiels
Pred annihilaters
Land raider redeemer
crusader
Land speeder typhoons
These were developed either during the horus heresy or the time that followed

Everything you note there are STC constructs, and some of them are still not in use by all forms of the Imperium as being 'to newly discovered' and thus not 'vetted' enough. So, not invented by the Imperium at all, but rather recovered from the Dark Age of Technology.

Oh wow amazing that you noticed something stated several times before, lawks...if only you had read my previous post you would know this.

The land speeder typhoon, invented after horus heresy, uses land speeder chasis, development.

Storm shields, came up with by salamanders during great crusade, actually invented not an stc, based upon boarding shields no doubt, later becoming storm shields post heresy

Land raider crusader and redeemer, invented after hh, developed from the land raider stc. Development

Pred annihilator, as above, development

There are more developments such as terminator mounted plasma cannons, assault cannons (formally rotor cannons) etc.



Automatically Appended Next Post:
Something you all seem to be missing is my distinction between lost and rare tech that is highly advanced and the developed equipment that the imperials have made, I have repeatedly shown and given proof that the imperium does indeed innovate albeit rather slowly, also that the tech the imperium owns is so wildly out of the current tau tech range is mad (dark age tech)

The imperials have this tech, some is rare beyond belief (grav guns) but still manufactured in tiny numbers (plasma tech), to development and invention (bolters and power armour), all the way to Gene tech (juvenates) viral tech (virus bombs and pathogens that kill nids) to medical tech (narthecium), imperial tech overall is higher

The narthecium is not particularly advanced, it's simply a field surgery tool mounted to a forearm gauntlet. There's nothing in it that is particularly high-tech.

There is also the fact that we have, in both codices and BL fluff, a whole lotta stuff on Space Marines and the Imperium, and relatively nothing on the Tau, not in the sense that we get a spotlight on their stuff as a protagonist/POV characters.

 Formosa wrote:

 Maniac_nmt wrote:

 Formosa wrote:
Storm shields were invented by the salamanders during the heresy

Developing different marks of armour with improvements over the last mark is exactly what tau do, power armour mark 1-8 and articifer armour, xv80-88 etc are developments of previous armour and are thus scavenging.

Terminator armour are fully operational I do not know what you get that from, they are hard to produce and rare if that's what you mean, ot, cataphractii armour is mk1 I think, then we have the mini contemptors armour, then we have the armour the old metal minis are made of, recently we have the extra plates modern terminator armour and lastly grey knight terminator armour. That development.

"most of that existed during the great crusade"
The things that did not
Storm shiels
Pred annihilaters
Land raider redeemer
crusader
Land speeder typhoons
These were developed either during the horus heresy or the time that followed

Everything you note there are STC constructs, and some of them are still not in use by all forms of the Imperium as being 'to newly discovered' and thus not 'vetted' enough. So, not invented by the Imperium at all, but rather recovered from the Dark Age of Technology.

Oh wow amazing that you noticed something stated several times before, lawks...if only you had read my previous post you would know this.

The land speeder typhoon, invented after horus heresy, uses land speeder chasis, development.

Storm shields, came up with by salamanders during great crusade, actually invented not an stc, based upon boarding shields no doubt, later becoming storm shields post heresy

Land raider crusader and redeemer, invented after hh, developed from the land raider stc. Development

Pred annihilator, as above, development

There are more developments such as terminator mounted plasma cannons, assault cannons (formally rotor cannons) etc.



Automatically Appended Next Post:
Something you all seem to be missing is my distinction between lost and rare tech that is highly advanced and the developed equipment that the imperials have made, I have repeatedly shown and given proof that the imperium does indeed innovate albeit rather slowly, also that the tech the imperium owns is so wildly out of the current tau tech range is mad (dark age tech)

The imperials have this tech, some is rare beyond belief (grav guns) but still manufactured in tiny numbers (plasma tech), to development and invention (bolters and power armour), all the way to Gene tech (juvenates) viral tech (virus bombs and pathogens that kill nids) to medical tech (narthecium), imperial tech overall is higher

Actually, I read them just fine, you did not. All of those 'developments' were STC blueprints recovered after the heresy. They were generally not invented at all. They are variation blueprints that were later recovered and not innovated. Thank you for being a troll though.

As an example:

http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Land_Raider_Crusader#.UpPyOMROOM4

So, a tech priest had to discover the long lost arcanum to enable him to figure out how to strap bolters to the side of a tank. So no, you provided no examples that I can see of innovation.

The one area you can say they innovated, power armor, and in ten thousand years they managed to go from Mk 6 to just barely rolling out Mk 8. Wow, 10k years to come up with 2 upgrades, one of which is just barely being implemented. That is anything other than innovation.

Annihilator, developed by space wolves, not stc

Storm shields, developed by salamanders not stc

Typhoon pattern land speeder, developed by taking a totally different land speeder and adapting weapons to fit, not stc

Plasma cannon terminator, developed by dark angels, not stc

Assault cannon, outright developed not stc, made from rotor cannons

As stated slow but not non existent.

The narthecium is an example of wider use of medical tech and it also represents the apothecarys other equipment, though poorly on tt due to reductor no longer existing.

Now show me where in the tau armoury or fluff the nuetron weapons, barrage bombs, cyclonic torpedoes, vortex technology, geller fields, virus bombs, rad grenades, phosphex, void shields, volcano cannons, genetic engineering, warp engines, etc are as all this is beyond there current ethos nanotech

Iom has better top end tech. Tau have better tech on there avg. Soldiers

One of the arguments that I have read is that the tau battlesuit is better than a SM I view this argument to be wrong for a couple of reasons. One first off is that its comparing apples to oranges and by this I mean that they are meant for two different kinds of warfare SM are meant more for spec op hit hard and fast and defeat the enemy before they even know your there. Where as the battlesuits are meant as an elite fighting force like the U.S. marines. Second SM power armor is meant more for protection than adding to the wearer's abilities. It does have some nice features like ammo count, telling one where friendlies and enemies are , making sure that you are the only one using your weapon, and boosting the wearer's capabilities like strength. The battlesuit has all of its abilities built in and can take more also GW has bothered to show these abilities in game where as the SMs even though their abilities are more and better due to the fact that all of theirs are done by gene seed and added by their special organs GW has not bothered to even give SMs night vision even though they can see in the dark its not in game.

The abilities the SMs have are amazing and out do the tau battlesuit because its not the armor that gives them their abilities its the bio tech used which is far ahead of what the tau have. Now I understand that its a tech that is lost and once a gene seed is gone its gone, but this to me at least has more to due with the fact that it was made by the Emperor himself and to alter it or to try to remake it is heresy, not because that they can't do it(which I have to admit is probably true).

To Raiden
I believe that to be a true statement.

 raiden wrote:
Iom has better top end tech. Tau have better tech on there avg. Soldiers

I agree completely.

 Formosa wrote:
Annihilator, developed by space wolves, not stc - it is STC, they just bolted a lascannon on. Okay, I'll give you .25 points for minor modification, but if innovation means bolting something onto a chasis that is designed to be modularly changed about, that's pretty lame for a 'innovation' bonus

Storm shields, developed by salamanders not stc - I can't find the history on it, suffice to say some form of "storm shield" were in use from early periods prior to the heresy, so

Typhoon pattern land speeder, developed by taking a totally different land speeder and adapting weapons to fit, not stc - stated to be from STC design, it isn't different other than bolting on a missile launcher

Plasma cannon terminator, developed by dark angels, not stc - Terminator Armor dates to the Dark Age of Technology, not invented by the Dark Angels: http://warhammer40k.wikia.com/wiki/Terminator_Armour It is mildly extrapolated, I will give you that given that it is basically just Terran Deep Space Mining armor.

Assault cannon, outright developed not stc, made from rotor cannons - great, so innovation means a gatling gun which has been around since the civil war, i.e. regurgitated technology from the past.

As stated slow but not non existent.

The narthecium is an example of wider use of medical tech and it also represents the apothecarys other equipment, though poorly on tt due to reductor no longer existing.

Now show me where in the tau armoury or fluff the nuetron weapons, barrage bombs, cyclonic torpedoes, vortex technology, geller fields, virus bombs, rad grenades, phosphex, void shields, volcano cannons, genetic engineering, warp engines, etc are as all this is beyond there current ethos nanotech

See above and here as well:

I will give you large scale destructive firepower, and I think as others have said, at the far end of the spectrum the Tau don't have that, but the middle of the spectrum the Tau outshine and outpace the Imperium pretty easily.

They don't need geller fields or warp engines, they have void shields, tyranid fleet killing biological weapons, self genetically advanced (about the one thing you have there is poor 'juvenat' treatments and a few other esoteric things the Tau wouldn't do even if they could), etc.

Virus bombs and cyclonic torpedoes okay, but neither of those are really in the Tau MO. Bombing a planet to ashes pretty much means it cannot be used by the Tau afterwards, which would be counter productive to the Greater Good. I would also give various forms of genetic engineering, though most of those are due to Tau mental preferenes and not a lack of ability (they're not going to build an Eversor because that would be perceived as abhorant to do to a Tau).

As to Tau battlesuits vs Power Armor. They do have 'special forces' battle armor which does everything power armor does and then tops it. It's called Stealth Armor. Their armor is more advanced that Marines + Power Armor, it makes them stronger, enhances their durability to equivalent levels, has better coms systems, better scanning systems, better command and control systems, etc. In what possible way is power armor better other than being smaller than a XV8, and given the XV15 and XV25 pretty much do everything power armor does and then adds on a more technology.

The Tau don't do long range communication like the Imperium, but then that isn't technology based but psychic based, so that's moot.

Their 'titans' smoke Imperial Titans, cost less, are easier to produce, can do more/are more adaptable, also carry void shields or their equivalents....

This whole thread screams TLDR

but here is my list

Tier1
eldar
necron
ctan

Tier 2
Tau


Tier 3
IOM
Chaos
Orks

Tier 4
Tyranids

 Maniac_nmt wrote:

 Formosa wrote:
Annihilator, developed by space wolves, not stc - it is STC, they just bolted a lascannon on. Okay, I'll give you .25 points for minor modification, but if innovation means bolting something onto a chasis that is designed to be modularly changed about, that's pretty lame for a 'innovation' bonus

Storm shields, developed by salamanders not stc - I can't find the history on it, suffice to say some form of "storm shield" were in use from early periods prior to the heresy, so

Typhoon pattern land speeder, developed by taking a totally different land speeder and adapting weapons to fit, not stc - stated to be from STC design, it isn't different other than bolting on a missile launcher

Plasma cannon terminator, developed by dark angels, not stc - Terminator Armor dates to the Dark Age of Technology, not invented by the Dark Angels: http://warhammer40k.wikia.com/wiki/Terminator_Armour It is mildly extrapolated, I will give you that given that it is basically just Terran Deep Space Mining armor.

Assault cannon, outright developed not stc, made from rotor cannons - great, so innovation means a gatling gun which has been around since the civil war, i.e. regurgitated technology from the past.

As stated slow but not non existent.

The narthecium is an example of wider use of medical tech and it also represents the apothecarys other equipment, though poorly on tt due to reductor no longer existing.

Now show me where in the tau armoury or fluff the nuetron weapons, barrage bombs, cyclonic torpedoes, vortex technology, geller fields, virus bombs, rad grenades, phosphex, void shields, volcano cannons, genetic engineering, warp engines, etc are as all this is beyond there current ethos nanotech

See above and here as well:

I will give you large scale destructive firepower, and I think as others have said, at the far end of the spectrum the Tau don't have that, but the middle of the spectrum the Tau outshine and outpace the Imperium pretty easily.

They don't need geller fields or warp engines, they have void shields, tyranid fleet killing biological weapons, self genetically advanced (about the one thing you have there is poor 'juvenat' treatments and a few other esoteric things the Tau wouldn't do even if they could), etc.

Virus bombs and cyclonic torpedoes okay, but neither of those are really in the Tau MO. Bombing a planet to ashes pretty much means it cannot be used by the Tau afterwards, which would be counter productive to the Greater Good. I would also give various forms of genetic engineering, though most of those are due to Tau mental preferenes and not a lack of ability (they're not going to build an Eversor because that would be perceived as abhorant to do to a Tau).

As to Tau battlesuits vs Power Armor. They do have 'special forces' battle armor which does everything power armor does and then tops it. It's called Stealth Armor. Their armor is more advanced that Marines + Power Armor, it makes them stronger, enhances their durability to equivalent levels, has better coms systems, better scanning systems, better command and control systems, etc. In what possible way is power armor better other than being smaller than a XV8, and given the XV15 and XV25 pretty much do everything power armor does and then adds on a more technology.

The Tau don't do long range communication like the Imperium, but then that isn't technology based but psychic based, so that's moot.

Their 'titans' smoke Imperial Titans, cost less, are easier to produce, can do more/are more adaptable, also carry void shields or their equivalents....

I disagree with your last points. For one your still arguing armor against armor I agree that in terms of all that the armor can do the tau battlesuits are better, but power armor is only really meant for protection everything else is in the SM as I said in my point if you read it. The XV15 and XV25 do not do everything that XV8s do. For one XV25s and XV15s have less toughness and strength than the XV8s and can carry only one of two weapons the burst cannon or a fusion blaster they are not meant for the hard fighting that XV8s are. Also what titans do the tau have besides the riptide which really is not a titian, but the closest that the tau have gotten to a real titian. The riptide is costly only a few exist and for the best effects one has to nova charge which can kill the pilot. Never heard of IOM titian blowing up in one's face. Also the tau's small not really titans are very expensive with the XV107 almost never making it to production and the only way that they got it there was by tricking the Ethereals that they were working on another project when they were really sending the funds to the XV107. There shields are not up to IOM titan levels and the tau have only faced the warhound and Reaver class none of the really big ones. Also how is using psychic based communication moot that makes no sense for they have to use tech to send it and to decode it just because the tau are not psychic doesn't mean that its not valid tech. I mean if that was the case then we should put the Eldar in last place because everything they do is psychic.

 Formosa wrote:
Annihilator, developed by space wolves, not stc
Typhoon pattern land speeder, developed by taking a totally different land speeder and adapting weapons to fit, not stc
Plasma cannon terminator, developed by dark angels, not stc

Those aren't inventions, those are just examples of bolting existing weapons onto an existing hull. Having a terminator carry a plasma cannon instead of a heavy flamer isn't new technology, just like having a real-world soldier pick up a machine gun instead of a rifle isn't inventing something new. The fact that you have to desperately reach for bad examples like that to demonstrate "progress" in the Imperium's technology only highlights how pathetic they are.

Now show me where in the tau armoury or fluff the nuetron weapons, barrage bombs, cyclonic torpedoes, vortex technology, geller fields, virus bombs, rad grenades, phosphex, void shields, volcano cannons, genetic engineering, warp engines, etc are as all this is beyond there current ethos nanotech

You're making the mistake of listing a bunch of technobabble names instead of asking what those things do. For example, so what if Tau don't have volcano cannons, they have heavy railguns which accomplish the same end result.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Gunhead1 wrote:
Also what titans do the tau have besides the riptide which really is not a titian, but the closest that the tau have gotten to a real titian.

Tau don't use titans because large bipedal walkers are an incredibly stupid idea. Instead Tau use large numbers of conventional tanks and heavy aircraft like the Manta and Tigershark.

 Peregrine wrote:

 Formosa wrote:
Annihilator, developed by space wolves, not stc
Typhoon pattern land speeder, developed by taking a totally different land speeder and adapting weapons to fit, not stc
Plasma cannon terminator, developed by dark angels, not stc

Those aren't inventions, those are just examples of bolting existing weapons onto an existing hull. Having a terminator carry a plasma cannon instead of a heavy flamer isn't new technology, just like having a real-world soldier pick up a machine gun instead of a rifle isn't inventing something new. The fact that you have to desperately reach for bad examples like that to demonstrate "progress" in the Imperium's technology only highlights how pathetic they are.

Now show me where in the tau armoury or fluff the nuetron weapons, barrage bombs, cyclonic torpedoes, vortex technology, geller fields, virus bombs, rad grenades, phosphex, void shields, volcano cannons, genetic engineering, warp engines, etc are as all this is beyond there current ethos nanotech

You're making the mistake of listing a bunch of technobabble names instead of asking what those things do. For example, so what if Tau don't have volcano cannons, they have heavy railguns which accomplish the same end result.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Gunhead1 wrote:
Also what titans do the tau have besides the riptide which really is not a titian, but the closest that the tau have gotten to a real titian.

Tau don't use titans because large bipedal walkers are an incredibly stupid idea. Instead Tau use large numbers of conventional tanks and heavy aircraft like the Manta and Tigershark.

Thank you this I can understand. Though in the defense of all the races that use them they do sport heavy fire power and powerful shields and if your opponent is shooting at your titans then they are not shooting at your conventional units which are free to go to town on the enemy and if your opponent ignores the titan well it can go to town on the enemy as well.

 Gunhead1 wrote:
Though in the defense of all the races that use them they do sport heavy fire power and powerful shields and if your opponent is shooting at your titans then they are not shooting at your conventional units which are free to go to town on the enemy and if your opponent ignores the titan well it can go to town on the enemy as well.

But a superheavy tank (or squadron of superheavy tanks) would accomplish the same result but do it better. Titans have inherent problems (ground pressure, huge target profile, poor stability, incredibly bad geometry for maximizing armor thickness per unit of weight) that make them a really stupid idea. This is where you see the difference between the Imperium and the Tau: the Imperium obsesses over their religious icons and blind faith that old things are good, so you get things like titans that require priceless relic technology just to function. Meanwhile the Tau are pragmatic enough to realize that titans are a stupid idea, so they build much more effective alternatives.

 Peregrine wrote:

 Gunhead1 wrote:
Though in the defense of all the races that use them they do sport heavy fire power and powerful shields and if your opponent is shooting at your titans then they are not shooting at your conventional units which are free to go to town on the enemy and if your opponent ignores the titan well it can go to town on the enemy as well.

But a superheavy tank (or squadron of superheavy tanks) would accomplish the same result but do it better. Titans have inherent problems (ground pressure, poor stability, incredibly bad geometry for maximizing armor thickness per unit of weight) that make them a really stupid idea. This is where you see the difference between the Imperium and the Tau: the Imperium obsesses over their religious icons and blind faith that old things are good, so you get things like titans that require priceless relic technology just to function. Meanwhile the Tau are pragmatic enough to realize that titans are a stupid idea, so they build much more effective alternatives.

All good points, but this is 40k so.....yeah even if in the real world titans are not really a good in 40k they still will ruin your day in some name of hurry. Though I don't think they need priceless relic technology to function there like baneblades their just inferior copies of the original which is mentioned in The Grey Knight Omnibus.

 Peregrine wrote:

 Gunhead1 wrote:
Though in the defense of all the races that use them they do sport heavy fire power and powerful shields and if your opponent is shooting at your titans then they are not shooting at your conventional units which are free to go to town on the enemy and if your opponent ignores the titan well it can go to town on the enemy as well.

But a superheavy tank (or squadron of superheavy tanks) would accomplish the same result but do it better. Titans have inherent problems (ground pressure, huge target profile, poor stability, incredibly bad geometry for maximizing armor thickness per unit of weight) that make them a really stupid idea. This is where you see the difference between the Imperium and the Tau: the Imperium obsesses over their religious icons and blind faith that old things are good, so you get things like titans that require priceless relic technology just to function. Meanwhile the Tau are pragmatic enough to realize that titans are a stupid idea, so they build much more effective alternatives.

I am sorry, but the cannons on a titan will wipe out that entire squadron of tanks and then some.... in one shot.

Vendablefall wrote:
This whole thread screams TLDR

but here is my list

Tier1
eldar
necron
ctan

Tier 2
Tau


Tier 3
IOM
Chaos
Orks

Tier 4
Tyranids

Chaos probably shouldn't have a rank. Chaos represents IOM tech, xenos tech, illegal tech, and then warp infused magic tech that defies all comperhension. Also Chaos daemons are kinda like Nids how they are low on tech but their weapons are so maddening that they don't really quite care. They can travel super fast (control the warp).

 raiden wrote:
I am sorry, but the cannons on a titan will wipe out that entire squadron of tanks and then some.... in one shot.

We're talking about titan-size tanks, not just random LRBTs. Any gun that can wipe out a titan-size tank will easily do the same to a titan, since the titan has much thinner armor and can be killed by anything that hits it hard enough to knock it off balance a bit.

 Gunhead1 wrote:
All good points, but this is 40k so.....yeah even if in the real world titans are not really a good in 40k they still will ruin your day in some name of hurry.

But that's because of their priceless relic technology. It's the equivalent of taking a WWI tank back to the 1500s. Sure, the WWI tank is an incredibly bad design, but it has such an advantage in raw firepower/defense/etc that it will still win. But if you send that WWI tank against a tank built with WWI technology but modern design knowledge it's going to die very quickly. It's the same situation with titans: they badly misuse the technology they're built with, but that technology was good enough to allow for some stupidity in the name of making a walking religious shrine and still win against lower-technology opponents. But against equal-technology opponents the titan army is going to be massacred. It's just fortunate for the Imperium that their most common opponents are equally stupid and bring titans of their own.

And of course the fact that the Imperium is unable to take that technology and use it to build sensible vehicles is one of the reasons why they rank so low on the scale.

 Peregrine wrote:

 raiden wrote:
I am sorry, but the cannons on a titan will wipe out that entire squadron of tanks and then some.... in one shot.

We're talking about titan-size tanks, not just random LRBTs. Any gun that can wipe out a titan-size tank will easily do the same to a titan, since the titan has much thinner armor and can be killed by anything that hits it hard enough to knock it off balance a bit.

 Gunhead1 wrote:
All good points, but this is 40k so.....yeah even if in the real world titans are not really a good in 40k they still will ruin your day in some name of hurry.

But that's because of their priceless relic technology. It's the equivalent of taking a WWI tank back to the 1500s. Sure, the WWI tank is an incredibly bad design, but it has such an advantage in raw firepower/defense/etc that it will still win. But if you send that WWI tank against a tank built with WWI technology but modern design knowledge it's going to die very quickly. It's the same situation with titans: they badly misuse the technology they're built with, but that technology was good enough to allow for some stupidity in the name of making a walking religious shrine and still win against lower-technology opponents. But against equal-technology opponents the titan army is going to be massacred. It's just fortunate for the Imperium that their most common opponents are equally stupid and bring titans of their own.

And of course the fact that the Imperium is unable to take that technology and use it to build sensible vehicles is one of the reasons why they rank so low on the scale.

I wouldn't really call the Eldar stupid the others I will give you that one, but hey its working. The only reason GW has not given the tau titans of their own is because first they are a young race and second because it just doesn't fit with who they are so they go to the next best thing riptides.

 Gunhead1 wrote:

 Peregrine wrote:

 raiden wrote:
I am sorry, but the cannons on a titan will wipe out that entire squadron of tanks and then some.... in one shot.

We're talking about titan-size tanks, not just random LRBTs. Any gun that can wipe out a titan-size tank will easily do the same to a titan, since the titan has much thinner armor and can be killed by anything that hits it hard enough to knock it off balance a bit.

 Gunhead1 wrote:
All good points, but this is 40k so.....yeah even if in the real world titans are not really a good in 40k they still will ruin your day in some name of hurry.

But that's because of their priceless relic technology. It's the equivalent of taking a WWI tank back to the 1500s. Sure, the WWI tank is an incredibly bad design, but it has such an advantage in raw firepower/defense/etc that it will still win. But if you send that WWI tank against a tank built with WWI technology but modern design knowledge it's going to die very quickly. It's the same situation with titans: they badly misuse the technology they're built with, but that technology was good enough to allow for some stupidity in the name of making a walking religious shrine and still win against lower-technology opponents. But against equal-technology opponents the titan army is going to be massacred. It's just fortunate for the Imperium that their most common opponents are equally stupid and bring titans of their own.

And of course the fact that the Imperium is unable to take that technology and use it to build sensible vehicles is one of the reasons why they rank so low on the scale.

I wouldn't really call the Eldar stupid the others I will give you that one, but hey its working. The only reason GW has not given the tau titans of their own is because first they are a young race and second because it just doesn't fit with who they are so they go to the next best thing riptides.

Well, the Tau do have that one flying fortress thing....Manta? I think it was called? But that's Forgeworld.

 Gunhead1 wrote:
I wouldn't really call the Eldar stupid the others I will give you that one, but hey its working. The only reason GW has not given the tau titans of their own is because first they are a young race and second because it just doesn't fit with who they are so they go to the next best thing riptides.

No, Tau don't get titans because their fluff specifically states that they choose not to use titans. Titans are an inherently ineffective design, and don't fit at all with the Tau strategy of mobile warfare. So instead their heaviest vehicles are aircraft (or small spacecraft, in the case of the Manta). And those aircraft are capable of fighting titans and winning. A Manta can slug it out and win (though probably with heavy damage), and a railgun Tigershark can kill a Warhound with a single shot.

And the Riptide should not exist. It's a case of GW trampling all over the fluff because it will sell another $80 kit.

I can see and understand how Tau might be lower than IOM in technology. Like someone said earlier, IOM has a better top range of weapon, but the Tau have superior mid grade weapons.

However, what I take offense at is the placement of Orks. Orks are level 2. People see simple and think of it as crude. Orks high end tech blows away most things not Necron. They have stable, dependable, teleport technology and can and do use it on a massive scale. Their shield tech is second to none. Lets see IOM put shields around an entire asteroid. Orks can. Just because orks are bad shots, doesn't make their rokkits any less damaging than IOM missile launchers. Yeah, they are shorter range, but that's not really an issue when the ork wielding it is running full speed towards the enemy. Their Dakkaguns show they can play the long range game too. The shokk attack gun is a marvel. What IOM weapon can open a small hole in the warp and transport a live squig inside of a different target. Sure you might scratch your head at why would someone invent something like that, but the fact that it does exist and the IOM has no clue how to do it, thats something else entirely.

The Ork zzap gun is awesome. It was at one point the most powerful gun in the entire game. 2D6 strength, 2D6 armor pen. AP2, auto hit. I can't think of a single weapon the IOM has that can pen AV 21. Ork tankbusta bombs has hands down better than meltabombs. 2D6 is not nearly as effective as D6*2.

You can throw out names like vortex bombs or what have you, but how many of use remember pulsa rokkits? Yeah, orks can bring just as much pain. Just because the package doesn't look as nice, doesn't mean the job gets any less done. Take a P-fist vs Power Claw. The end result is the same however the package looks very different, and in the grand scheme of things which of the two do you think would be easier to maintain, duplicate, recharge, etc.

The AK-47 might not be the deadliest assault weapon on the planet, but its almost always picked as the best assault weapon ever made by those who study such things (as said by numerous shows that show up on the history/discovery channel)

I think the most interesting thing in this thread is how little much of the race's technology can be directly compared. You have the Tyranids who have pursued an entirely different technology path to everyone else and the best that we can do is compare it based on capability. That's not really comparing technological advancement, just capability: some things are easier ways to do things than others. Making precise corners and precision wielding for construction is easy for mechanics, hard for biology. But cellular reproduction - easy for biology, near impossible for mechanics. So when you pick a task to compare on, you may be picking something that isn't very advanced for one path, but is the pinnacle of achievement for the other.

And again with the Orks. Can we actually say any of the orks understand their technology? Barely. The mekboyz are going by instincts encoded in their ancestral memories. They build amazing devices in the same way that birds build nests: throwing a twig here, a bit of fabric there. Their devices actually are crude, because they're not saying "we need 15 22mm bolts here, a steel plate of these dimensions...". They're like magpies grabbing all sorts of stuff and assembling something that does the job ad hoc. Orks are Scrap Heap Challenge on steroids. An ork battle wagon probably takes a hundred times as much maintenance as a Rhino, consumes a hundred times as much fuel. The only thing that keeps Ork technology running, is the frantic mad pleasure a mekboy takes in repairing it, tearing it apart and rebuilding it and adding things. Ork technology is like an elephant standing on its trunk. We're not impressed because it does it well, we're stunned that it does it at all. How do you compare something like that to the Eldar or Necrons? The race has almost no grasp of technology at a conscious level and everything they build is the mechanical equivalent of a 50' Jenga tower. It's like trying to compare a nuclear explosion to a power station. One is steady and understood and controlled, the other might give off more energy but it is none of those things - it's an explosion.

IoM vs. Tau? Are you talking mode technology level, or peak? Do you evaluate merely on who HAS the highest technology, or who has the most technological understanding.

I think this debate is actually showing one thing very well - that direct comparison of technology between races is pretty hard. And that's realistic to me and quite fun. Technology Tree is a good term. You can't easily say X is higher then Y in many cases. They're just different branches. It's only easy to compare if they're the same branch.

knas ser wrote:
I think the most interesting thing in this thread is how little much of the race's technology can be directly compared. You have the Tyranids who have pursued an entirely different technology path to everyone else and the best that we can do is compare it based on capability. That's not really comparing technological advancement, just capability: some things are easier ways to do things than others. Making precise corners and precision wielding for construction is easy for mechanics, hard for biology. But cellular reproduction - easy for biology, near impossible for mechanics. So when you pick a task to compare on, you may be picking something that isn't very advanced for one path, but is the pinnacle of achievement for the other.

And again with the Orks. Can we actually say any of the orks understand their technology? Barely. The mekboyz are going by instincts encoded in their ancestral memories. They build amazing devices in the same way that birds build nests: throwing a twig here, a bit of fabric there. Their devices actually are crude, because they're not saying "we need 15 22mm bolts here, a steel plate of these dimensions...". They're like magpies grabbing all sorts of stuff and assembling something that does the job ad hoc. Orks are Scrap Heap Challenge on steroids. An ork battle wagon probably takes a hundred times as much maintenance as a Rhino, consumes a hundred times as much fuel. The only thing that keeps Ork technology running, is the frantic mad pleasure a mekboy takes in repairing it, tearing it apart and rebuilding it and adding things. Ork technology is like an elephant standing on its trunk. We're not impressed because it does it well, we're stunned that it does it at all. How do you compare something like that to the Eldar or Necrons? The race has almost no grasp of technology at a conscious level and everything they build is the mechanical equivalent of a 50' Jenga tower. It's like trying to compare a nuclear explosion to a power station. One is steady and understood and controlled, the other might give off more energy but it is none of those things - it's an explosion.

IoM vs. Tau? Are you talking mode technology level, or peak? Do you evaluate merely on who HAS the highest technology, or who has the most technological understanding.

I think this debate is actually showing one thing very well - that direct comparison of technology between races is pretty hard. And that's realistic to me and quite fun. Technology Tree is a good term. You can't easily say X is higher then Y in many cases. They're just different branches. It's only easy to compare if they're the same branch.

The higher level Meks do grasp the basics of their technology and are intelligent enough to copy good designs from their enemies.

The Orks started building titans after they faced Imperial Titans during the great crusade.

Lets not forget that Ork teleportation tech is the most advanced teleportation tech around.

Saying that their tech is mostly encoded in their genes is to simple

Someone had mentioned earlier that Orkz also scale their tech to whatever their enemy is fielding against them, like a virus adapting to kill an immune system.

I'm telling you, the wonders of the Orkz is God Tech. They are Lvl 1 if not Lvl 0!

Not exactly... and saying that the Orks have the most dependable teleportation technology is not saying much (nor is it entirely accurate).

The only people you can really compare Ork teleporters... excuse me, telly-portas... to is the Imperium, who are known to lose entire squads of Terminators to the Warp when they try to teleport them somewhere, because their teleportariums are old, decrepit and not-at-all-understood relics of technology. Guess what? Orks vanish into the Warp, too, or arrive as something definitely no-longer-Orky.

Eldar? They have teleportation down pat between their Warp Spiders and webway gates.

Necrons? They teleport across hyperdimensional space by thinking about it.

Tau? Tau don't teleport.

 Gunhead1 wrote:

I disagree with your last points. For one your still arguing armor against armor I agree that in terms of all that the armor can do the tau battlesuits are better, but power armor is only really meant for protection everything else is in the SM as I said in my point if you read it. The XV15 and XV25 do not do everything that XV8s do. For one XV25s and XV15s have less toughness and strength than the XV8s and can carry only one of two weapons the burst cannon or a fusion blaster they are not meant for the hard fighting that XV8s are. Also what titans do the tau have besides the riptide which really is not a titian, but the closest that the tau have gotten to a real titian. The riptide is costly only a few exist and for the best effects one has to nova charge which can kill the pilot. Never heard of IOM titian blowing up in one's face. Also the tau's small not really titans are very expensive with the XV107 almost never making it to production and the only way that they got it there was by tricking the Ethereals that they were working on another project when they were really sending the funds to the XV107. There shields are not up to IOM titan levels and the tau have only faced the warhound and Reaver class none of the really big ones. Also how is using psychic based communication moot that makes no sense for they have to use tech to send it and to decode it just because the tau are not psychic doesn't mean that its not valid tech. I mean if that was the case then we should put the Eldar in last place because everything they do is psychic.

1. The XV15/XV25 pack what amounts to the same electronics and internal equipment as the XV8.
2. It is doctrinal that they only carry burst cannons and fusion blasters. We know from fluff they can fire the burst cannon without revealing their position. As such carrying a plasma rifle or flamer makes little sense as it would reveal position as a very visible shot is given off. Nothing implies the suit could not handle plasma, flamers, or missile pods technically given that it already mounts the burst cannon and fusion blaster. It isn't technology which governs who gets what weapons so much as doctrine with the Tau (Rail Rilfes are man portable, as an example, but are not given to Firewarriors, only Pathfinders).
3. The 'Tau Titan', as Peregrine notes, are the Tiger Sharks and Mantas, which are more maneuverable, cheaper, easier to produce, pack weapons just as powerful as anything an Imperial Titan fields, the Manta is equipped with shields equivalent to void shields of titans, and both can also handle troop deployment. The Manta carrying tanks, transports, battlesuits, drones, and troopers that can deploy at high speed. The Tiger Shark carrying drones. Meaning they posses a much larger tactical versatility that Titans do not. Even granting Warhound and Reaver, these fights have been completely lopsided victories for the Tau. A single pass from a single Tiger Shark cratered a Warhound with consummate ease. Being bigger just makes it easier for these vessels to pound them, not make them more protected. So a Manta can move itself between orbit and planetside, deploy ground troops, and smoke enemy armor up to and including Titans.
4. Psychic based communication is moot, it is not technological. The Psyker doesn't need a 'Cerebro' to send a message to another Psyker. It is an innate racial trait that is not based in technology. The Eldar's technology can revolve around the use of psychic energy to power it (all of their tech does not run on it). Imperial psykers don't power a Leman Russ.

 Psienesis wrote:
Not exactly... and saying that the Orks have the most dependable teleportation technology is not saying much (nor is it entirely accurate).

The only people you can really compare Ork teleporters... excuse me, telly-portas... to is the Imperium, who are known to lose entire squads of Terminators to the Warp when they try to teleport them somewhere, because their teleportariums are old, decrepit and not-at-all-understood relics of technology. Guess what? Orks vanish into the Warp, too, or arrive as something definitely no-longer-Orky.

Eldar? They have teleportation down pat between their Warp Spiders and webway gates.

Necrons? They teleport across hyperdimensional space by thinking about it.

Tau? Tau don't teleport.

1. warp spiders are lost too, any warp travel outside the webway is hazardous, though the eldar have the safest means.
necrons don't use the warp which makes it hard to compare.

Are we now restricting the discussion of Teleportation Technology to Warp-traversing Teleportation? That would, I think, be an unfair limitation on those races that can duplicate the effects of Warp-based technology without actually using the Warp.

After all, the Necron starfleet is capable of FTL speeds, yet do not use the Warp. Does that somehow make their fleet "less advanced"? That position would be laughable.

 Psienesis wrote:
Are we now restricting the discussion of Teleportation Technology to Warp-traversing Teleportation? That would, I think, be an unfair limitation on those races that can duplicate the effects of Warp-based technology without actually using the Warp.

After all, the Necron starfleet is capable of FTL speeds, yet do not use the Warp. Does that somehow make their fleet "less advanced"? That position would be laughable.

Depending on perspective, it could make it more advanced as they've skipped the problems of the warp altogether for something safer and as equally effective.

 Peregrine wrote:

 Gunhead1 wrote:
I wouldn't really call the Eldar stupid the others I will give you that one, but hey its working. The only reason GW has not given the tau titans of their own is because first they are a young race and second because it just doesn't fit with who they are so they go to the next best thing riptides.

No, Tau don't get titans because their fluff specifically states that they choose not to use titans. Titans are an inherently ineffective design, and don't fit at all with the Tau strategy of mobile warfare. So instead their heaviest vehicles are aircraft (or small spacecraft, in the case of the Manta). And those aircraft are capable of fighting titans and winning. A Manta can slug it out and win (though probably with heavy damage), and a railgun Tigershark can kill a Warhound with a single shot.

And the Riptide should not exist. It's a case of GW trampling all over the fluff because it will sell another $80 kit.

Yeah, the only reason (Fluffwise) that the riptide exists is because it has a jetpack, allowing it to be mobile. The fire caste wanted a more powerful battlesuit, but it was a problem because it must be mobile. The only reason i\they were able to be made mobile enough is because of the nova reactor.

Tiger shark AX-1-0s are built out of existing parts, cost the fraction of a titan, ans so powerful that in their first use against the IOM ONE took down a titian's void shield with a missle barrage, and ONE SHOTTED IT with it's main gun, killing the princept as well.

 Maniac_nmt wrote:

 Gunhead1 wrote:

I disagree with your last points. For one your still arguing armor against armor I agree that in terms of all that the armor can do the tau battlesuits are better, but power armor is only really meant for protection everything else is in the SM as I said in my point if you read it. The XV15 and XV25 do not do everything that XV8s do. For one XV25s and XV15s have less toughness and strength than the XV8s and can carry only one of two weapons the burst cannon or a fusion blaster they are not meant for the hard fighting that XV8s are. Also what titans do the tau have besides the riptide which really is not a titian, but the closest that the tau have gotten to a real titian. The riptide is costly only a few exist and for the best effects one has to nova charge which can kill the pilot. Never heard of IOM titian blowing up in one's face. Also the tau's small not really titans are very expensive with the XV107 almost never making it to production and the only way that they got it there was by tricking the Ethereals that they were working on another project when they were really sending the funds to the XV107. There shields are not up to IOM titan levels and the tau have only faced the warhound and Reaver class none of the really big ones. Also how is using psychic based communication moot that makes no sense for they have to use tech to send it and to decode it just because the tau are not psychic doesn't mean that its not valid tech. I mean if that was the case then we should put the Eldar in last place because everything they do is psychic.

1. The XV15/XV25 pack what amounts to the same electronics and internal equipment as the XV8.
2. It is doctrinal that they only carry burst cannons and fusion blasters. We know from fluff they can fire the burst cannon without revealing their position. As such carrying a plasma rifle or flamer makes little sense as it would reveal position as a very visible shot is given off. Nothing implies the suit could not handle plasma, flamers, or missile pods technically given that it already mounts the burst cannon and fusion blaster. It isn't technology which governs who gets what weapons so much as doctrine with the Tau (Rail Rilfes are man portable, as an example, but are not given to Firewarriors, only Pathfinders).
3. The 'Tau Titan', as Peregrine notes, are the Tiger Sharks and Mantas, which are more maneuverable, cheaper, easier to produce, pack weapons just as powerful as anything an Imperial Titan fields, the Manta is equipped with shields equivalent to void shields of titans, and both can also handle troop deployment. The Manta carrying tanks, transports, battlesuits, drones, and troopers that can deploy at high speed. The Tiger Shark carrying drones. Meaning they posses a much larger tactical versatility that Titans do not. Even granting Warhound and Reaver, these fights have been completely lopsided victories for the Tau. A single pass from a single Tiger Shark cratered a Warhound with consummate ease. Being bigger just makes it easier for these vessels to pound them, not make them more protected. So a Manta can move itself between orbit and planetside, deploy ground troops, and smoke enemy armor up to and including Titans.
4. Psychic based communication is moot, it is not technological. The Psyker doesn't need a 'Cerebro' to send a message to another Psyker. It is an innate racial trait that is not based in technology. The Eldar's technology can revolve around the use of psychic energy to power it (all of their tech does not run on it). Imperial psykers don't power a Leman Russ.

You seem to ignore points. first off the XV25s and XV15s are not on the same level due to what they are designed to do look at the fluff please look at the tau codex it shows you that they are different and don't have the same capabilities. On the mantas they dual the IOM titans not just shoot and your dead. the tau have only ever fought the small ones. If you are going to argue battlesuits vs SMs then at least talk about everything not just armor. For a SM is not good because of his armor alone but because of what goes into him.

 Maniac_nmt wrote:

 Psienesis wrote:
Are we now restricting the discussion of Teleportation Technology to Warp-traversing Teleportation? That would, I think, be an unfair limitation on those races that can duplicate the effects of Warp-based technology without actually using the Warp.

After all, the Necron starfleet is capable of FTL speeds, yet do not use the Warp. Does that somehow make their fleet "less advanced"? That position would be laughable.

Depending on perspective, it could make it more advanced as they've skipped the problems of the warp altogether for something safer and as equally effective.

Exactly my point.

We have to look at a faction's tech, what its intended role is, how it goes about fulfilling that role, and whether or not it is more, less or as equally effective in doing so as the tech of another faction.

 Gunhead1 wrote:

 Maniac_nmt wrote:

 Gunhead1 wrote:

I disagree with your last points. For one your still arguing armor against armor I agree that in terms of all that the armor can do the tau battlesuits are better, but power armor is only really meant for protection everything else is in the SM as I said in my point if you read it. The XV15 and XV25 do not do everything that XV8s do. For one XV25s and XV15s have less toughness and strength than the XV8s and can carry only one of two weapons the burst cannon or a fusion blaster they are not meant for the hard fighting that XV8s are. Also what titans do the tau have besides the riptide which really is not a titian, but the closest that the tau have gotten to a real titian. The riptide is costly only a few exist and for the best effects one has to nova charge which can kill the pilot. Never heard of IOM titian blowing up in one's face. Also the tau's small not really titans are very expensive with the XV107 almost never making it to production and the only way that they got it there was by tricking the Ethereals that they were working on another project when they were really sending the funds to the XV107. There shields are not up to IOM titan levels and the tau have only faced the warhound and Reaver class none of the really big ones. Also how is using psychic based communication moot that makes no sense for they have to use tech to send it and to decode it just because the tau are not psychic doesn't mean that its not valid tech. I mean if that was the case then we should put the Eldar in last place because everything they do is psychic.

1. The XV15/XV25 pack what amounts to the same electronics and internal equipment as the XV8.
2. It is doctrinal that they only carry burst cannons and fusion blasters. We know from fluff they can fire the burst cannon without revealing their position. As such carrying a plasma rifle or flamer makes little sense as it would reveal position as a very visible shot is given off. Nothing implies the suit could not handle plasma, flamers, or missile pods technically given that it already mounts the burst cannon and fusion blaster. It isn't technology which governs who gets what weapons so much as doctrine with the Tau (Rail Rilfes are man portable, as an example, but are not given to Firewarriors, only Pathfinders).
3. The 'Tau Titan', as Peregrine notes, are the Tiger Sharks and Mantas, which are more maneuverable, cheaper, easier to produce, pack weapons just as powerful as anything an Imperial Titan fields, the Manta is equipped with shields equivalent to void shields of titans, and both can also handle troop deployment. The Manta carrying tanks, transports, battlesuits, drones, and troopers that can deploy at high speed. The Tiger Shark carrying drones. Meaning they posses a much larger tactical versatility that Titans do not. Even granting Warhound and Reaver, these fights have been completely lopsided victories for the Tau. A single pass from a single Tiger Shark cratered a Warhound with consummate ease. Being bigger just makes it easier for these vessels to pound them, not make them more protected. So a Manta can move itself between orbit and planetside, deploy ground troops, and smoke enemy armor up to and including Titans.
4. Psychic based communication is moot, it is not technological. The Psyker doesn't need a 'Cerebro' to send a message to another Psyker. It is an innate racial trait that is not based in technology. The Eldar's technology can revolve around the use of psychic energy to power it (all of their tech does not run on it). Imperial psykers don't power a Leman Russ.

You seem to ignore points. first off the XV25s and XV15s are not on the same level due to what they are designed to do look at the fluff please look at the tau codex it shows you that they are different and don't have the same capabilities. On the mantas they dual the IOM titans not just shoot and your dead. the tau have only ever fought the small ones. If you are going to argue battlesuits vs SMs then at least talk about everything not just armor. For a SM is not good because of his armor alone but because of what goes into him.

I agree that XV25s are different than than XV15s, but XV15s are now obsolete, almost completely replaced by XV25s. It is hard, as it is for everybody, for a manta or tiger shark AX-1-0 to kill a titan but they have the added advantage of being, fat, maneuverable, and hard to hit (also, a tiger shark is the fraction of the cost of a titian).
Battlesuits and SMs are completely different, and really should not be compared as equivalents. The IOM doesn't really have a battlesuit equivalent.

True mantas are cheaper and can transport troops but so can titans and IOM has the resources to build titans in numbers.

 Gunhead1 wrote:




You seem to ignore points. first off the XV25s and XV15s are not on the same level due to what they are designed to do look at the fluff please look at the tau codex it shows you that they are different and don't have the same capabilities. On the mantas they dual the IOM titans not just shoot and your dead. the tau have only ever fought the small ones. If you are going to argue battlesuits vs SMs then at least talk about everything not just armor. For a SM is not good because of his armor alone but because of what goes into him.

 Psienesis wrote:

 Maniac_nmt wrote:

 Psienesis wrote:
Are we now restricting the discussion of Teleportation Technology to Warp-traversing Teleportation? That would, I think, be an unfair limitation on those races that can duplicate the effects of Warp-based technology without actually using the Warp.

After all, the Necron starfleet is capable of FTL speeds, yet do not use the Warp. Does that somehow make their fleet "less advanced"? That position would be laughable.

Depending on perspective, it could make it more advanced as they've skipped the problems of the warp altogether for something safer and as equally effective.

Exactly my point.

We have to look at a faction's tech, what its intended role is, how it goes about fulfilling that role, and whether or not it is more, less or as equally effective in doing so as the tech of another faction.

they have not avoided the wrap they skim it. there are only two races that have avoided it the Eldar and the necrons. the Eldar have the webway which they didn't make the old ones did and the necrons just shoot across space but cannot change direction when they do. because these methos are done by the oldest most powerful races then i highly doubt the tau are going to find a way. not saying they couldn't but not within. anytime soon.

A Tau Crisis Suit is "more advanced" than any personal armor system the Imperium fields, no matter which way you cut it. While it may not be as protective as TDA, for example, it's far more mobile, and packs more advanced support systems. It is so demonstrably superior to flak and standard carapace that the comparison doesn't even begin.

If we want to claim that the standard Tau Fire Warrior is not to be compared to a Space Marine, the only other thing we have in the Imperium to compare it to is some flavor of Guardsman...

... in which case the Tau's wargear is obviously superior in every conceivable way. Hell, the Tau Crisis suit even has a built-in anti-theft device!

 Psienesis wrote:
A Tau Crisis Suit is "more advanced" than any personal armor system the Imperium fields, no matter which way you cut it. While it may not be as protective as TDA, for example, it's far more mobile, and packs more advanced support systems. It is so demonstrably superior to flak and standard carapace that the comparison doesn't even begin.

If we want to claim that the standard Tau Fire Warrior is not to be compared to a Space Marine, the only other thing we have in the Imperium to compare it to is some flavor of Guardsman...

... in which case the Tau's wargear is obviously superior in every conceivable way. Hell, the Tau Crisis suit even has a built-in anti-theft device!

For the love of the Emperor, I'm not arguing armor please read what i wrote the systems in the battlesuits are better than power armor no disagreement, but the SMs have the sensors in their biology due to bio tech. that is what i am saying that how the abilities were achived is better the the tau.

Not really, because SM bio-tech is extremely prone to failure. There are entire Chapters missing certain aspects of their bio-tech because the mutation of their geneseed either prevents it from working, or it doesn't work in the manner originally intended. Or it works in over-drive, leading Chapters to engage in, say, cannibalism.

The bio-tech of the Space Marines is "high tech" but it's no longer on par with the reliable systems of the Tau.

When was the last time you read the tau having bio tech like that and not all the gene seed is falling apart ultramarines anyone.

"Technological breadth isn't the same as technological height" as someone put it is entirely ignoring the very important aspect of "how advanced are their production facilities and methods?"
So, if lots of well equipped Tau do not mean they have highly technological production methods, then I don't know what it means.

Ork tech isn't really technology. If it requires the presence and willingness of an Ork to function in the first place it doesn't qualify as technology. In fact, Technology by definition is methodology or knowledge, and Ork "tech" requires their will and not their know-how which just invalidates it as technology in the first case.

And last but not least, keep in mind that the effect of technology does not provide a measurement for how advanced that technology is. If going at speed X means level 7 technology, you're missing a whole lot of important data or technological improvements such as fuel efficiency, safety, comfort, and so on.
Case in point, Necrons going FTL without entering the Warp may actually be a sign of incredible technology over human/Eldar warp travel (although we know that Eldar Webway travel is cozy to a degree Necrons can't dream of) since it may actually be significantly easier to achieve FTL by going through the warp.

Thus, Necrons are clearly a head and shoulder above Eldar, even if Eldar have nifty tech the Necrons can't replicate.
Eldar are clearly a head and shoulder above everyone else, even if their tech produces the same level of impact it's actually cleaner, easier to produce, more comfortable, etc etc.
Tau are clearly slightly ahead of the Imperium, even though they don't have the incredible relics, because a functioning relic doesn't mean the Imperiums technology improves it just means that they've got access to someone else's tech.
The Orks and Daemons clearly doesn't belong in the list because they don't use technology at all, since at best they simply use methodology.
Tyranids, on the other hand, make extensive use of biological technology, and while a lot of it is simply down to a (designed?) rapid adaptive evolution, there is a large decree of applied adaptation of genetic material within the hive fleets. Where are they in the tree? On a different branch, imo.

I like this view, but don't forget that easy of manufacture plays apart in this and while leman russes are not more technology advanced than hammerheads, but there are a hell of a lot more of them and the IOM is like the soviet union not the best tech but never underestimate them

I still say Orks are top tier in very specific circumstances

This isn't an argument of scale. It's a 1:1 comparison. That the Imperium has a boatload more crappy tanks than the Tau have super-tanks does not make the Leman Russ a better tank than the Hammerhead.

UM geneseed is the "most stable" of the geneseed available to the Imperium. When you end up with freaks like the Black Dragons or the Flesh-Tearers... that's not saying much. They're also only responsible for 60% of the current Chapters, so it would seem that geneseed stability is basically a cointoss.

A lot of the bio-tech a SM is equipped with is also situational. While the second heart, third lung and more-efficient blood supply is good for anyone involved in extreme physical activity.... how often do you need to eat a guy's brain to learn tactical data? How often do you need to spit acid?

 Psienesis wrote:
This isn't an argument of scale. It's a 1:1 comparison. That the Imperium has a boatload more crappy tanks than the Tau have super-tanks does not make the Leman Russ a better tank than the Hammerhead.

UM geneseed is the "most stable" of the geneseed available to the Imperium. When you end up with freaks like the Black Dragons or the Flesh-Tearers... that's not saying much. They're also only responsible for 60% of the current Chapters, so it would seem that geneseed stability is basically a cointoss.

A lot of the bio-tech a SM is equipped with is also situational. While the second heart, third lung and more-efficient blood supply is good for anyone involved in extreme physical activity.... how often do you need to eat a guy's brain to learn tactical data? How often do you need to spit acid?

Ok your a big tau fan i got it. look i'm getting tried of fighting this argument. not that i am giving in its just annoying to have to fight a general opinion that has been taken as fact in both the tau and the IOM. people forget that GW is a company and has a habit of steam rolling the IOM to make other races look better same with tyranids and orks and the CSM have it even worse for the crappy IOM beats them to give the crappy IOM a some what better image. I doubt that i have changed anyones' opinion as no one has changed mine i just don't understand this IOM hate.

 Gunhead1 wrote:

 Psienesis wrote:
This isn't an argument of scale. It's a 1:1 comparison. That the Imperium has a boatload more crappy tanks than the Tau have super-tanks does not make the Leman Russ a better tank than the Hammerhead.

UM geneseed is the "most stable" of the geneseed available to the Imperium. When you end up with freaks like the Black Dragons or the Flesh-Tearers... that's not saying much. They're also only responsible for 60% of the current Chapters, so it would seem that geneseed stability is basically a cointoss.

A lot of the bio-tech a SM is equipped with is also situational. While the second heart, third lung and more-efficient blood supply is good for anyone involved in extreme physical activity.... how often do you need to eat a guy's brain to learn tactical data? How often do you need to spit acid?

Ok your a big tau fan i got it. look i'm getting tried of fighting this argument. not that i am giving in its just annoying to have to fight a general opinion that has been taken as fact in both the tau and the IOM. people forget that GW is a company and has a habit of steam rolling the IOM to make other races look better same with tyranids and orks and the CSM have it even worse for the crappy IOM beats them to give the crappy IOM a some what better image. I doubt that i have changed anyones' opinion as no one has changed mine i just don't understand this IOM hate.

I don't think Psienesis can be classified as a Tau fanboy. Nor do I think that any of the Tau supporters would say the Tau could 'steam roll the IoM'. If the IoM could bring it's full weight to bear (and that doesn't just mean just the Black Templars) they could effectively deal with the Tau. However, they cannot do this and won't do this. As a result, superior manufacturing and front line tech enables the Tau to compete vs the mainstream inferior but far more numerous IoM.

The Tau are generally going to win in many of their engagements because the Imperium won't commit the resources needed to deal with such a threat when you have larger Orc, Necron, Tyranid, and Chaos problems to handle. The Tau are thus a big fish in their small pond. They aren't going to be universe beaters for a long time, if ever. What they do represent is a credible small scale threat that the Imperium cannot effectively defeat without pouring bodies at it. The Ethereals know this, and thus are very controlled in how they probe Imperial Space for new worlds. They don't expand as fast as they could, because they know it would promote a response of sufficient force that they couldn't stop it, at least not without grievous loss of life and planets that would see them on a perpetual defensive which is a loosing game.

Thank you for your post i understand your points and im just tried of seeing the IOM is crappy and they cannot produce anything good argument and not bother to look at anything or just say its IOM so its crappy.

If you think I am a Tau fan-boy, you would be... very wrong. My most-favorite factions of the setting are all Imperial factions, some of which aren't well-represented on the table-top.

Point being, for a sci-fi setting, the IOM *is* fairly low-tech. That's actually part of their appeal. They manage to stand against much more-advanced, often much more-numerous foes with nothing but a simple lasgun, a tractor-turned-tank and a prayer to a silent god. The greatest examples of their technology are relics from a mythical age that few, if any, have any degree of comprehension of their principles of operation, and technology is more religion than science.

They have a force of super-soldiers who are, simultaneously, superhumans and less-than-human. These soldiers, too, are equipped in ancient relics and tools of an era ten thousand years gone, and live as warrior-monks, while fighting as super-soldiers and berzerkers.

It is this aspect of the Imperium, that this star-spanning, monolithic juggernaut of an empire that comprises everything from orbital platforms and sprawling Hive Cities to barbaric worlds where fire is a relatively new invention, can withstand all of the threats that are arrayed against it, often with little more than a 20th-century firearm and a bulletproof vest, is what makes it interesting.

 Psienesis wrote:
If you think I am a Tau fan-boy, you would be... very wrong. My most-favorite factions of the setting are all Imperial factions, some of which aren't well-represented on the table-top.

Point being, for a sci-fi setting, the IOM *is* fairly low-tech. That's actually part of their appeal. They manage to stand against much more-advanced, often much more-numerous foes with nothing but a simple lasgun, a tractor-turned-tank and a prayer to a silent god. The greatest examples of their technology are relics from a mythical age that few, if any, have any degree of comprehension of their principles of operation, and technology is more religion than science.

They have a force of super-soldiers who are, simultaneously, superhumans and less-than-human. These soldiers, too, are equipped in ancient relics and tools of an era ten thousand years gone, and live as warrior-monks, while fighting as super-soldiers and berzerkers.

It is this aspect of the Imperium, that this star-spanning, monolithic juggernaut of an empire that comprises everything from orbital platforms and sprawling Hive Cities to barbaric worlds where fire is a relatively new invention, can withstand all of the threats that are arrayed against it, often with little more than a 20th-century firearm and a bulletproof vest, is what makes it interesting.

Sorry if i offended you and you have good points and the IG are my first and favorite army. I just want them to be more than chanting idiots, but oh well.

Psienesis, you have pretty much summed up why i also enjoy the imperial factions the most have an exalt

Considering what is going on at Cadia, I don't think the Imperium has much room to do anything right now. Tyranid, Orc, Necron, Tau, doesn't matter. Chaos is knocking on their front door. Screw everything else. @.@

Also, about GW's stance on this issue: I agree with Gunhead, simply because as a Chaos player, that really is how the set up is perceived.

Space Marines are the Always-Wins, so in order to make anyone look good, they have to beat on some Space Marines. But the Space Marines can't lose face, so they beat on Chaos. And what does Chaos get to beat on?

Nothing. -__-

GW, WHY DO YOU HATE US SO!?!!!


Edit for above posts: I like the Imperium too, but they are too proud imo. That's why I went with Chaos. Get all that goodness of the Space Marines, but with a war doctrine far more terrifying. I also like the fact that Chaos commands Magicks and makes the Imperium look like a child for it. XD Quoted from the Chaos Space Marines Codex from the Sorcerer entry: "The crude pyrotechnics of the Imperium are the weapons of a frightened child. Only we have the courage to wield the Immaterium itself."

 Psienesis wrote:
If you think I am a Tau fan-boy, you would be... very wrong. My most-favorite factions of the setting are all Imperial factions, some of which aren't well-represented on the table-top.

Point being, for a sci-fi setting, the IOM *is* fairly low-tech. That's actually part of their appeal. They manage to stand against much more-advanced, often much more-numerous foes with nothing but a simple lasgun, a tractor-turned-tank and a prayer to a silent god. The greatest examples of their technology are relics from a mythical age that few, if any, have any degree of comprehension of their principles of operation, and technology is more religion than science.

They have a force of super-soldiers who are, simultaneously, superhumans and less-than-human. These soldiers, too, are equipped in ancient relics and tools of an era ten thousand years gone, and live as warrior-monks, while fighting as super-soldiers and berzerkers.

It is this aspect of the Imperium, that this star-spanning, monolithic juggernaut of an empire that comprises everything from orbital platforms and sprawling Hive Cities to barbaric worlds where fire is a relatively new invention, can withstand all of the threats that are arrayed against it, often with little more than a 20th-century firearm and a bulletproof vest, is what makes it interesting.

I won't address how disastrously wrong the rest of the OP's "Tech Tree" was, but the IoM being called "low tech" is pretty unforgivable in my eyes. I can understand the misconception though, and it's not like it's uncommon. You're certainly not the only one who would identify the Imperium that way. It's easy after all isn't it?

But, this is 40k. Not reality. The Imperium certainly has its share of archaic practices and superstitious beliefs. BUT, and this is important. They are not wrong.

If I told you (in real life) that I believe all things are made of up tiny little butterflies, you'd probably just hope I got locked up someday right? And I'd be crazy. Right up until you looked under a microscope and saw that your favorite pet or pencil was actually composed of tiny little butterflies.

That's how it is in 40k. That world is made of butterflies (so to speak). The Technocrats ruling Mars are far from stupid. They don't whisper little rituals and chant hymms out of ignorance. They do those things because it gets results. They don't screw in a light-bulb and then say a quick prayer - in 40k they probably mutter a techno-incantation, or "rite of repair" and the bulb screws itself in. That's just the reality of this world.

Look at it like the reverse of Chaos. Cultists don't just hang around chanting to the Ruinous Powers and risking terrible punishment for the hell of it. They perform the dark rituals because it gives them a very real, very tangible benefit. They gain power, sorcerous magicks, and favor from much more powerful beings.

It can hardly be called "low tech".

Also, remember that humanity once conquered the entirety of the galaxy in a grand Empire (not unlike the Eldar). That ancient empire was killed by its own technology (the Iron Men) who rebelled against them. That is why Artificial Intelligence is a sin against the Machine God. At the very least that means that he Technomagi are VERY well versed in history.

Also looking at various other technologies that the Imperoum has created (digital weapons - so small that they are basically fine jewelry - the second most advanced genetic engineering the galaxy - Juvenant treatments to extend lifespans - Terraforming - Titans - Void shields - etc).

Excepting that other factions have indicated that, no, the AdMech do *not* know what the hell they are talking about. The relics they're gathering are all sorts of riddled with the remains of a trillion AI systems, ECM, ECCM and electronic warfare agents left over from both the Heresy and the War of Iron, but the fact that Eldar, Necron, and Tau technology... or even Ork technology... does not fall into the same trap tells us that not all tech in 40K needs to function in the way the AdMech thinks it does.

And in comparing the IoM to the Necrons... or the Eldar... or the Tau.... yes! It most certainly *can* be called low-tech! What is or is not "high tech" is a matter of comparison.

Is a man in a suit of iron wielding a sharp metal stick, mounted on a quadupedal mammal a low-tech warrior? Of course! *Unless* you're a naked tribesman wielding a wooden stick with a bit of sharp rock on one end... in which case, that mounted knight is *god-like* in his technical aptitude.

And that's the sort of situation this is. *Comparatively speaking* the IoM *is* a fairly low-tech society. It has a very small few number of gee-whiz tech-relics... none of which it can replicate or really understand how they function... but the bulk of its technology seems to come from 1952.

I've posted this before, but I'll do it again:
http://1d4chan.org/wiki/Adeptus_Mechanicus

Skip down to the part titled "Why Everything is so Grimdark". Explains a lot in about the most concise (if NSFW) manner I've ever seen.

This is still my favorite part of that page.

So Cute.

 En Excelsis wrote:

Also, remember that humanity once conquered the entirety of the galaxy in a grand Empire (not unlike the Eldar). That ancient empire was killed by its own technology (the Iron Men) who rebelled against them. That is why Artificial Intelligence is a sin against the Machine God. At the very least that means that he Technomagi are VERY well versed in history.
Also looking at various other technologies that the Imperoum has created (digital weapons - so small that they are basically fine jewelry - the second most advanced genetic engineering the galaxy - Juvenant treatments to extend lifespans - Terraforming - Titans - Void shields - etc).

Most of these technologies were created during the DAoT, which means they are at least 15000/18000 years old in the setting. Nobody can replicate them, nobody understands how they work. Think about it for a second: the best technology available is at least 15000 years old. Investigation? Development? Universities where people create new ideas that enrich the species? Not at all. The Technomagi literally pray that they keep working.

Humanity during the Dark Age had brilliant scientists. Not any more. Now they have priests.

A little detail here: the Dark Age turned into the Age of Strife for unknown reasons. There are, however, two main possible causes: the war against the machines and the appearance of psykers. The apparition of, to all effects, sorcerers and magicians radically changed the setting. Science no longer ruled supreme.

Look at it like the reverse of Chaos. Cultists don't just hang around chanting to the Ruinous Powers and risking terrible punishment for the hell of it. They perform the dark rituals because it gives them a very real, very tangible benefit. They gain power, sorcerous magicks, and favor from much more powerful beings.

It can hardly be called "low tech".

Which is magic. Not technology. The setting uses both: you can shoot a laser and then charge with a demon. From a magical point of view, the Imperium is quite strong. And don´t forget that the Chaos worshippers can turn into spawns as easily as anything else. The Chaos Gods do not follow a "you help me, I help you" rule. They are unpredictable (chaotic, so to say).

Also, I think the Chaos forces (the Lost and the Damned) have a more "modern" approach to technology. They build tanks and space ships, and they do it from the scratch. And the Dark Mechanicus loves investigation and research. They are always trying new things using science, magic, or a mix of both.

@Psienesis: that was a nice link and a nice read. Thanks!

 Psienesis wrote:
Excepting that other factions have indicated that, no, the AdMech do *not* know what the hell they are talking about. The relics they're gathering are all sorts of riddled with the remains of a trillion AI systems, ECM, ECCM and electronic warfare agents left over from both the Heresy and the War of Iron, but the fact that Eldar, Necron, and Tau technology... or even Ork technology... does not fall into the same trap tells us that not all tech in 40K needs to function in the way the AdMech thinks it does.

And in comparing the IoM to the Necrons... or the Eldar... or the Tau.... yes! It most certainly *can* be called low-tech! What is or is not "high tech" is a matter of comparison.

Is a man in a suit of iron wielding a sharp metal stick, mounted on a quadupedal mammal a low-tech warrior? Of course! *Unless* you're a naked tribesman wielding a wooden stick with a bit of sharp rock on one end... in which case, that mounted knight is *god-like* in his technical aptitude.

And that's the sort of situation this is. *Comparatively speaking* the IoM *is* a fairly low-tech society. It has a very small few number of gee-whiz tech-relics... none of which it can replicate or really understand how they function... but the bulk of its technology seems to come from 1952.

I've posted this before, but I'll do it again:
http://1d4chan.org/wiki/Adeptus_Mechanicus

Skip down to the part titled "Why Everything is so Grimdark". Explains a lot in about the most concise (if NSFW) manner I've ever seen.

That is pretty darn good you sir have convinced me and strangely enough it actually makes me like the tech priests more. That is actually the best way anyone has put it that I have read/heard.

To En Excelala
So my tech tree is horrible is it . Well that's fine though I'm curious why do you feel that way and where do you think the races should be

Warpcraft is technology and science. It's a natural part of the 40k universe so study and use of that force is largely indistinguishable from 'regular' science and tech.

Necrons and C'Tan are more 'magic' because what they have/do happens 'just because' with no natural (universal) phenomenon or force behind it.

Actually, Necron Tech is super-science. They are the faction that best represents Clarke's Third Law, which states "Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic." In a sense, the Necrons are a villain from a 1950s drive-in sci-fi movie.

They do what they do because their science is so tight that they can ignore, or work around, basic physics.

Well said Psienesis.

If we look at it that way.

Necrons are Superscience to persent day real world
Eldar are Superscience to present day real world

IoM, Tau and Orks are concievable scientifically with small leaps of logic. That's what makes these armies appealing to some, they can RELATE to their weapons and technology.

 Farseer Faenyin wrote:
Well said Psienesis.

If we look at it that way.

Necrons are Superscience to persent day real world
Eldar are Superscience to present day real world

IoM, Tau and Orks are concievable scientifically with small leaps of logic. That's what makes these armies appealing to some, they can RELATE to their weapons and technology.

Orks completely ignore logic, which is IMO one of the appeals of the race.

 Tyran wrote:

 Farseer Faenyin wrote:
Well said Psienesis.

If we look at it that way.

Necrons are Superscience to persent day real world
Eldar are Superscience to present day real world

IoM, Tau and Orks are concievable scientifically with small leaps of logic. That's what makes these armies appealing to some, they can RELATE to their weapons and technology.

Orks completely ignore logic, which is IMO one of the appeals of the race.

I disagree about orks ignoring logic. I'm not sure where the idea that all ork tech works on faith or magic. I think its a bit of people running away with something they heard and expanding on it. Most probably haven't ever read the 3rd ed. Ork codex where a lot of this stuff comes from in the first place.

Ork Tech has to phycially work. It does. A shoota has to have all the correct working parts that makes a gun go pop. Its ammo needs powder, a casing, and a projectile to hit with. The ork can't just hold up a stick and go pew pew and make it shoot, regardless of how hard he believes it does. The latent psychic field is not anywhere near that strong.

However, what that field does do, is keep the gun running when it probably should have jammed or maybe overheated if it was being fired by a guardsmen. The big shoota probably hits harder when fired by an ork than a guardsmen because it is a loud gun. And orks believe that loud things hit harder.... Thats just common sense right. However, make no mistake, the big shoota will work in a guardsman hands. Naturally red trukks go faster (just a tich) than non red trukks because thats what orks believe happens. But the red one isn't going to lap the yellow one by any means of imagination.

Yes Mek boys are born with genetic knowledge of mechanical engineering, chemistry (for fuel and explosives), physics and other such skills. But that only goes so far. Its that way for when the spores propagate onto a world, Ork society can start at a highish level. Each new planet doesn't have to reinvent the wheel. However (especially the 'Er we go 2nd ed book) is full of stories of Meks experimenting and sometimes the results work the first time, often they don't. They very much learn by process of trial and error. (ork test pilots has got to be a sucky job) They get ideas from other races and spring board them into something of Orky equivalency. Orky inventive imagination is truly a frightening prospect for those he deems to play the part of guinna pig.

Thats what I love about orks. The Warboss takes his best Mek aside and says "I want dis to do dat. Make it happen." Then the Mek goes and starts tinkering with what he knows and starts throwing in things that might work. Two to a couple dozen mishaps later the Boss has what he wants. This is especially true during a Waagh. The prevaling overwhelming psychic energy really gets the Meks brain moving in directions he never could have imagined on his own. He is able to make massive bounds forward in mental theories and physical laws and applications to put them to action. Its gotta be one of the coolest things to witness.

 Jayden63 wrote:

I disagree about orks ignoring logic. I'm not sure where the idea that all ork tech works on faith or magic. I think its a bit of people running away with something they heard and expanding on it. Most probably haven't ever read the 3rd ed. Ork codex where a lot of this stuff comes from in the first place.

Ork Tech has to phycially work. It does. A shoota has to have all the correct working parts that makes a gun go pop. Its ammo needs powder, a casing, and a projectile to hit with. The ork can't just hold up a stick and go pew pew and make it shoot, regardless of how hard he believes it does. The latent psychic field is not anywhere near that strong.

Tell that to a Weirdboy. XD

I've always been of the mind that Ork tech scales to their opponents so naturally it would have to work on some normal level. I just like the idea of Waagh energy magnetizing some fools shoota together and when the enemy picks it up and just falls apart. Or a nob has a Big' Choppa (Chain ax?) that doesn't run unless the ork his holding it, unlike the "activation runes" on Space Marine equipment.

 TheRedWingArmada wrote:

 Jayden63 wrote:

I disagree about orks ignoring logic. I'm not sure where the idea that all ork tech works on faith or magic. I think its a bit of people running away with something they heard and expanding on it. Most probably haven't ever read the 3rd ed. Ork codex where a lot of this stuff comes from in the first place.

Ork Tech has to phycially work. It does. A shoota has to have all the correct working parts that makes a gun go pop. Its ammo needs powder, a casing, and a projectile to hit with. The ork can't just hold up a stick and go pew pew and make it shoot, regardless of how hard he believes it does. The latent psychic field is not anywhere near that strong.

Tell that to a Weirdboy. XD

I've always been of the mind that Ork tech scales to their opponents so naturally it would have to work on some normal level. I just like the idea of Waagh energy magnetizing some fools shoota together and when the enemy picks it up and just falls apart. Or a nob has a Big' Choppa (Chain ax?) that doesn't run unless the ork his holding it, unlike the "activation runes" on Space Marine equipment.

I haven't seen anything that suggests anything like that happens at all with Ork technology. I really don't like the idea of "Orks believe it so it's true" that everyone seems to have, i haven't seen any real proof of that - especially not to the degree some people suggest, such as a stick becoming a gun or their weapons being completely empty inside. Even the thing about red making things go faster seems a bit too much, if a Mek is going to put lots of work into making a vehicle go as fast as possible, he's going to give it a red paint job when he's done - to the other orks the only visible change would be the red paint despite there being lots of things done to improve the speed.

 Mentlegen324 wrote:

 TheRedWingArmada wrote:

 Jayden63 wrote:

I disagree about orks ignoring logic. I'm not sure where the idea that all ork tech works on faith or magic. I think its a bit of people running away with something they heard and expanding on it. Most probably haven't ever read the 3rd ed. Ork codex where a lot of this stuff comes from in the first place.

Ork Tech has to phycially work. It does. A shoota has to have all the correct working parts that makes a gun go pop. Its ammo needs powder, a casing, and a projectile to hit with. The ork can't just hold up a stick and go pew pew and make it shoot, regardless of how hard he believes it does. The latent psychic field is not anywhere near that strong.

Tell that to a Weirdboy. XD

I've always been of the mind that Ork tech scales to their opponents so naturally it would have to work on some normal level. I just like the idea of Waagh energy magnetizing some fools shoota together and when the enemy picks it up and just falls apart. Or a nob has a Big' Choppa (Chain ax?) that doesn't run unless the ork his holding it, unlike the "activation runes" on Space Marine equipment.

I haven't seen anything that suggests anything like that happens at all with Ork technology. I really don't like the idea of "Orks believe it so it's true" that everyone seems to have, i haven't seen any real proof of that - especially not to the degree some people suggest, such as a stick becoming a gun or their weapons being completely empty inside. Even the thing about red making things go faster seems a bit too much, if a Mek is going to put lots of work into making a vehicle go as fast as possible, he's going to give it a red paint job when he's done - to the other orks the only visible change would be the red paint despite there being lots of things done to improve the speed.

IIRC the Colors are:
Red: Faster
Yellow: More Dakka
Blue: Luckier
Purple: Stealthier.

Also the Orks need to believe it is going to work for it working, a stick becoming a gun isn't believable because a stick doesn't looks like a gun, but take a metal box, put bullets in one place, stick some barrels in another place and a handle with a trigger in another place and you have an Ork weapon.

 Mentlegen324 wrote:

 TheRedWingArmada wrote:

 Jayden63 wrote:

I disagree about orks ignoring logic. I'm not sure where the idea that all ork tech works on faith or magic. I think its a bit of people running away with something they heard and expanding on it. Most probably haven't ever read the 3rd ed. Ork codex where a lot of this stuff comes from in the first place.

Ork Tech has to phycially work. It does. A shoota has to have all the correct working parts that makes a gun go pop. Its ammo needs powder, a casing, and a projectile to hit with. The ork can't just hold up a stick and go pew pew and make it shoot, regardless of how hard he believes it does. The latent psychic field is not anywhere near that strong.

Tell that to a Weirdboy. XD

I've always been of the mind that Ork tech scales to their opponents so naturally it would have to work on some normal level. I just like the idea of Waagh energy magnetizing some fools shoota together and when the enemy picks it up and just falls apart. Or a nob has a Big' Choppa (Chain ax?) that doesn't run unless the ork his holding it, unlike the "activation runes" on Space Marine equipment.

I haven't seen anything that suggests anything like that happens at all with Ork technology. I really don't like the idea of "Orks believe it so it's true" that everyone seems to have, i haven't seen any real proof of that - especially not to the degree some people suggest, such as a stick becoming a gun or their weapons being completely empty inside. Even the thing about red making things go faster seems a bit too much, if a Mek is going to put lots of work into making a vehicle go as fast as possible, he's going to give it a red paint job when he's done - to the other orks the only visible change would be the red paint despite there being lots of things done to improve the speed.

It's as you say.

Back in 2nd Ed. the joke was that the orks thought painting a battlewagon red made it go faster. Now some people seem to think it does. The parody has become the thing itself. And I think it's a little less funny for it.

I don't know where people got such extreme ideas about ork technology. I think some people just liked the idea of things working because you think they do, and have taken it way more literally than it was meant.

 Tyran wrote:

 Mentlegen324 wrote:

 TheRedWingArmada wrote:

 Jayden63 wrote:

I disagree about orks ignoring logic. I'm not sure where the idea that all ork tech works on faith or magic. I think its a bit of people running away with something they heard and expanding on it. Most probably haven't ever read the 3rd ed. Ork codex where a lot of this stuff comes from in the first place.

Ork Tech has to phycially work. It does. A shoota has to have all the correct working parts that makes a gun go pop. Its ammo needs powder, a casing, and a projectile to hit with. The ork can't just hold up a stick and go pew pew and make it shoot, regardless of how hard he believes it does. The latent psychic field is not anywhere near that strong.

Tell that to a Weirdboy. XD

I've always been of the mind that Ork tech scales to their opponents so naturally it would have to work on some normal level. I just like the idea of Waagh energy magnetizing some fools shoota together and when the enemy picks it up and just falls apart. Or a nob has a Big' Choppa (Chain ax?) that doesn't run unless the ork his holding it, unlike the "activation runes" on Space Marine equipment.

I haven't seen anything that suggests anything like that happens at all with Ork technology. I really don't like the idea of "Orks believe it so it's true" that everyone seems to have, i haven't seen any real proof of that - especially not to the degree some people suggest, such as a stick becoming a gun or their weapons being completely empty inside. Even the thing about red making things go faster seems a bit too much, if a Mek is going to put lots of work into making a vehicle go as fast as possible, he's going to give it a red paint job when he's done - to the other orks the only visible change would be the red paint despite there being lots of things done to improve the speed.

IIRC the Colors are:
Red: Faster
Yellow: More Dakka
Blue: Luckier
Purple: Stealthier.

Also the Orks need to believe it is going to work for it working, a stick becoming a gun isn't believable because a stick doesn't looks like a gun, but take a metal box, put bullets in one place, stick some barrels in another place and a handle with a trigger in another place and you have an Ork weapon.

Any evidence for a gun that is just an empty metal box that looks like a gun working? I see that mentioned fairly often, but i haven't seen any real proof that anything like that can happen. All i know is one story of a Techmarine supposedly opening a gun to find shouldn't of worked properly, but we aren't given the whole story for that and it's an in-universe perspective that can easily have plenty of explanations that make more sense than actually working like that.

Omg, I was poking at that as a joke! Personally, I think that is what makes the Orkz godly. You don't have to understand it but you do have to respect it because whether or not you believe, they do and enough to start a war over it and win.

Who really cares how much the Waagh aids in their logistics? Does it make sense that a Mekboy is going to tinker away at an awesome weapon and then give it the desired paint job for the desired effect? Sure. Of course even. That's just good physics. But is it possible for that same ork boy to throw a bunch of metal together with bullets in it, hand it to someone else and say "Go shoot!"? Possible as well.

Let's just roll it all up together and call it Ork tech.

And the crack about the stick was that a Weird Boy apparently throws balls of Orkstuff out of the stick...like a gun of sorts. Can other orks do this? Probably not, but at least he can make a stick go "bang-bang-bang!"

I don't like this idea that ork tech only works because of the waagh. It feels like it takes away form the orks. There is no reason that the orks can't make actual weapons and if they are making working weapons then they don't need a waggh field. Also the waagh thing leads to out right silly ideas like the shooting stick. I'd much rather hold the position that ork weapons are crude but real and functional.

In the ciaphas cain books he and others did use ork weapons and vehicles. He said that the only reason that you didn't want to use an ork gun is that the recoil could break your arm.

I skipped everything but I just wanted to say that I agreed with the list. I am a massive Tau fan. I am far more hopeful about their survival and ascension as a major empire than a lot of others. However, I think their relative space inferiority (where a lot of the most advanced technology comes into play) makes them the lowest player overall. I kept expecting for me to find a point of disagreement but the logic is sound.

knas ser wrote:

 Mentlegen324 wrote:

 TheRedWingArmada wrote:

 Jayden63 wrote:

I disagree about orks ignoring logic. I'm not sure where the idea that all ork tech works on faith or magic. I think its a bit of people running away with something they heard and expanding on it. Most probably haven't ever read the 3rd ed. Ork codex where a lot of this stuff comes from in the first place.

Ork Tech has to phycially work. It does. A shoota has to have all the correct working parts that makes a gun go pop. Its ammo needs powder, a casing, and a projectile to hit with. The ork can't just hold up a stick and go pew pew and make it shoot, regardless of how hard he believes it does. The latent psychic field is not anywhere near that strong.

Tell that to a Weirdboy. XD

I've always been of the mind that Ork tech scales to their opponents so naturally it would have to work on some normal level. I just like the idea of Waagh energy magnetizing some fools shoota together and when the enemy picks it up and just falls apart. Or a nob has a Big' Choppa (Chain ax?) that doesn't run unless the ork his holding it, unlike the "activation runes" on Space Marine equipment.

I haven't seen anything that suggests anything like that happens at all with Ork technology. I really don't like the idea of "Orks believe it so it's true" that everyone seems to have, i haven't seen any real proof of that - especially not to the degree some people suggest, such as a stick becoming a gun or their weapons being completely empty inside. Even the thing about red making things go faster seems a bit too much, if a Mek is going to put lots of work into making a vehicle go as fast as possible, he's going to give it a red paint job when he's done - to the other orks the only visible change would be the red paint despite there being lots of things done to improve the speed.

It's as you say.

Back in 2nd Ed. the joke was that the orks thought painting a battlewagon red made it go faster. Now some people seem to think it does. The parody has become the thing itself. And I think it's a little less funny for it.

I don't know where people got such extreme ideas about ork technology. I think some people just liked the idea of things working because you think they do, and have taken it way more literally than it was meant.

... though, a Red Paint Job *does* grant a vehicle 1" of extra movement, for free.

But I think the thought of Ork Technology only working because magic is because the TechMarines and TechPriests open up Orky weapons, look at its "crude" design and scoff, saying "This couldn't possibly work!"

... forgetting that the AdMech learns its construction and design rituals through rote memorization, not actually understanding ballistic sciences. It "shouldn't work" because it doesn't match what the AdMech thinks all proper weapons should look like, not because it is violating some laws of physics.