BobtheInquisitor wrote:
If you’ve never seen retail customers abuse staff, I don’t know what to tell you. Even before the pandemic, even before the advent of culture war nonsense, retail workers were inundated with abuse.

There is absolutely no way the global pandemic and economic uncertainty reduced the abuse.

There is an underlying culture in the US where retail employees are not seen as 'real people' and an unspoken attitude that they do not have the same rights to being treated ethically. How it has cropped up in this pandemic shows that on top of the other obvious issues very direct risks to human health can occur when this attitude intersects with societal unrest.

 NinthMusketeer wrote:

 BobtheInquisitor wrote:
If you’ve never seen retail customers abuse staff, I don’t know what to tell you. Even before the pandemic, even before the advent of culture war nonsense, retail workers were inundated with abuse.

There is absolutely no way the global pandemic and economic uncertainty reduced the abuse.

There is an underlying culture in the US where retail employees are not seen as 'real people' and an unspoken attitude that they do not have the same rights to being treated ethically. How it has cropped up in this pandemic shows that on top of the other obvious issues very direct risks to human health can occur when this attitude intersects with societal unrest.

The "essential" people are basically the expendable ones. Healthcare workers, retail workers, USPS, food service, etc.

We started trying to hire a new person where I work about two weeks in to the Pandemic. We just got somebody hired last week. It was that hard to find somebody to work in a pizza place right now for minimum wage. Nobody wants to be an "essential" employee right now.

 Original Timmy wrote:


Iv been reading your gak for over 100+ pages of this thread and to me you are part of this problem we have at the moment in the UK, you are not willing to help other people out as you are to selfish.

Why are you so against anything that will help track and trace or prevent the spread of this disease? and your usual excuse of "My liberties/freedom" doesnt cut it as your freedom isnt worth a fraction of someones life so get over yourself

So put me on ignore if you're unable to fathom non herd thinking. Nothing I've been opposed to or expressed scepticism for has been proven to save any lives, so you can ease off the false dilemmas. I don't want to be on any track and trace app, for a bunch of reasons. At the start they assured us any participation would be voluntary, now they're talking about forcing people to use it for fear of not being able to buy basic food supplies. that is unethical.


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 r_squared wrote:


I feel that it rather does. Your argument is all about the infringement of your personal freedoms, regardless of the reasoning. These people who abuse my wife feel the same way. Whilst I'm sure you would not do the same as them, they are unable to fathom any infringement on their liberty and react with aggression when denied.
It's a theme of self entitlement and the elevation of the self above all others which is the problem here.

I agree that the Govts app that based on centralisation was an absolute disaster in terms of any data protection and I would have had difficulty using it, but to dimiss all apps and basic attempts to track and trace based on your own personal belief in freedom is extremely selfish.

So I re-iterate, you are not compelled to comply, you can stay home and do your shopping if you can't bring yourself to provide basic information, or attempt to protect others. Please do, if others who thought like you did so, perhaps my wife wouldn't have to face so much abuse.

No, it doesnt. Whats your implication? that I'm somehow like those people because I don't want to scan a phone to enter a shop? that is fallacious in that it assumes that those people and me are doing 2 totally different things based on the same reason, and therefore attempting to paint me as a bad person because of their actions. Theres no aggression, I'm simply pointing out its flaws.

 queen_annes_revenge wrote:

 Original Timmy wrote:


Iv been reading your gak for over 100+ pages of this thread and to me you are part of this problem we have at the moment in the UK, you are not willing to help other people out as you are to selfish.

Why are you so against anything that will help track and trace or prevent the spread of this disease? and your usual excuse of "My liberties/freedom" doesnt cut it as your freedom isnt worth a fraction of someones life so get over yourself

So put me on ignore if you're unable to fathom non herd thinking. Nothing I've been opposed to or expressed scepticism for has been proven to save any lives..

Except, the track and trace system that was the key to South Korea managing its outbreak so well did save lives and the scientific community seems to largely be in agreement that such a system saves lives (assuming it's set up properly). So no, you're wrong, you have expressed scepticism about systems that could be used to save lives. Bizarrely you've done it in the name of "ethics". Your "ethical" stance is that you won't inconvenience yourself even if it potentially helps keep hundreds of other people safe.

I get the concern that the system used may not be effective enough because of flaws in how it's set up, or concerns that any laws put in place would not be repealed after the crisis is over but that's not what you're saying. Given that there are plenty of ways to buy food nowadays without even leaving your house it's also not unethical to make leaving your contact details as a requirement for entering a shop. Even if you have to use a physical shop I think you'd be hard-pushed to make a convincing argument that having to leave your contact details with them in order to potentially help hundreds of people in the face of a verified public health threat is less ethical than refusing to do so.

Yeah, except last week it was 'give your name and number to till staff' and now it's 'scan in on this app or be forbidden from purchasing food'. Mission creep much? Voluntary. That's the key word. What you're now talking about is mandatory. South Korea can make their citizens do whatever they like. They also published people's personal details. Should we do that too?

 Matt Swain wrote:

Even tho a big part of me sees the right and need of most of these covid measures, I just can't make myself to believe they'll go away once the threat is gone. More privacy permanently eliminated, more rights overruled. More power to the police and surveillance state.

At the same time we made it through World War 2 with even harsher restrictions and more monitoring and reporting of people.
I think that the terrorist laws are a tricky area because the war on terror never fully ended. It sort of started against one specific major group, however the nature of the terrorist cells is that once you smack one down, another two seem to arise to fill the gap. So you end up with a rolling series of smaller fights against these groups. It's a difficult situation because there's no clear cut "end" like there is with a formal war or a battle against a pandemic.


Thing is, in theory, at some stage we reach a point where we end the Covid 19 battle. This might be when we've a vaccine; track and traced it to oblivion (unlikely); reach herd immunity status etc... Ergo there is a rough end-point at which we can consider relaxation of some of the measures taken. You don't need a tracking app once there's no track and trace system; you don't need to wear a mask when you don't need too etc... Though we might also see some social changes, eg social pressure to wear masks if you have a cold/cough condition. We might see increased handwashing slip into society. Meanwhile things like screens at shops might remain, but at the same time a big part of getting people back into old-habits will be retailers wanting customers to "relax" again. Removing wash stations and screens alongside reduced monitoring entering the store and no more limits would all combine to relax the average shopper back into slower browsing habits. Things retailers want to happen in order to increase the chance of you spending more.

Meanwhile store loyalty cards and such will remain.

Some track and trace software might even improve - my sister uses this on her phone along with her boyfriend all the time. In theory the only one tracking their movements is the satellite and a few people on their watch list. The whole idea being that if they are out on a ride on their own and fall off someone might notice or at least has a rough idea what region they are in if they aren't seen/can't be contacted for an excessive length of time.


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 queen_annes_revenge wrote:
Yeah, except last week it was 'give your name and number to till staff' and now it's 'scan in on this app or be forbidden from purchasing food'. Mission creep much? Voluntary. That's the key word. What you're now talking about is mandatory. South Korea can make their citizens do whatever they like. They also published people's personal details. Should we do that too?

In theory you don't need to publish peoples personal details, you just need to publish that Corona was detected at X places on Y dates - if you didn't get abing on your app to self isolate and you were in those locations at that time then self isolate.

Now now, the ethical nature of the concern is valid, the scientific community rarely regards ethical questions in many subdivisions accurately because it rarely comes up in their fields beeing more focused on the practical implications of their respective fields. (just an issue with the general specialist approach academia developped, which can be remedied if one is aware of it.)

Ehtically the issue lies within the rather absolutistic nature of controll such a APP would bring and should freedom of movement and privacy concerns be disregarded due to crisis situations.

Especially legaly and the underlying moral systems such precedents Set can be massive issues.
Emergency rights f.e. have a rather tainted history in switzerland, "vollmachtenregiemes" as they are called have often remained in place long after the initial crisis subsided. Mind you this state is a Totalitarian "quasi responsible" dictatorship, but it is totalitarian.

However, considering how much google and consort know about us, there shouldn't be any issue if you use Track and trace with localised data saving that automatically deletes its data points after a month or two.

A proper track and trace system with a good app will be very useful when the pandemic after Covid-19 begins.

 Kilkrazy wrote:
A proper track and trace system with a good app will be very useful when the pandemic after Covid-19 begins.

yes, allbeit i wonder , why wasn't that something not done allready?

I mean i get it that governments are slow to adopt such means but especially over here , mountain rescuing and weather apps have basically existed since the first Apps came out, meanwhile something like this which also can occure nothing thought to it?

Likely because we've not needed them in decades.

Previous SARS outbreaks never really left China/Asia in a big way to the west, they got here, but in very small numbers that were very easily contained and treated. Containment at their end was good enough and swift enough to shut down its global transmission.

Meanwhile things like swine and bird flu never really hit big population centres and were more rural diseases. Shifts in attitude and biosecurity at farms resolved many of them and shut them down. They basically only impacted rural workers and those in close proximity to livestock. So the general population was pretty safe from them.



Corona spread fast the world over, aided by its sneaky 1 week incubation period when it can still pass itself on person to person with no one the wiser that they've got it for a week or so.
Basically it escaped China/Asia and containment measures in many other nations were geared up for such a fast outbreak nor such a widespread one. We never invested into developing tracking apps because we never really needed them outside of far more small scale tracking setups. Heck we've never needed such a system during the lifecycle of the mobile phone as a technology, let alone as a mass market technology.

Countries typically only invest heavily into non-essential elements when they are affluent and have money to burn and as of late we've sort of jumped one recession to another. So governments weren't feeling overly blessed with budgets. When that happens planning and prep for disasters can get pushed and kicked further and further down the road because you don't need it and other things for health matters get the money first.
Of course some nations, like the USA, can also have disproportionate resource allocation in their system (eg vast amounts going into the military) which can tax other segments - again limited budgets means less money for the future. It was easy for Trump to shut down the infectious disease disaster team/setup because it hadn't been "needed".



Of course we need it all yesterday today, but we didn't last year. And its not just disease outbreak, yo ucan bet there are multiple other major disaster relief systems and preparation systems that could be developed "just in case" which aren't because the events they are linked too are so rare that they are just not a high priority.

yet a track and trace with decentralized data saving system isn't that hard to create and unilaterally aplpicable and a cheap aswell as effective meassure.

Not Online!!! wrote:
yet a track and trace with decentralized data saving system isn't that hard to create and unilaterally aplpicable and a cheap aswell as effective meassure.

Aye and we already have them, so how the government failed to make one and how its now postponed until sometime in winter is beyond me. We've the technology out there; multiple industry examples etc...

Then again Epic has millions upon millions and still can't make an online shop with a shopping cart feature.


Sometimes projects just have the wrong people or the wrong priorities or the wrong politics all wrapped up in them.

Also it causes all, both small and great, both rich and poor, both free and slave, to be marked on the right hand or the forehead, so that no one can buy or sell unless he has the mark

All we need now is some wearable tech......

 Knockagh wrote:
Also it causes all, both small and great, both rich and poor, both free and slave, to be marked on the right hand or the forehead, so that no one can buy or sell unless he has the mark

All we need now is some wearable tech......

laughs in beeing the government and the governments monopoly of force aswell as the subject of the government.


Until the realisation Steps in that i am underpaid for a 3rd of the Function, not paid for another 3rd and finnally got the short Stick on the last 3rd.





Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Overread wrote:

Not Online!!! wrote:
yet a track and trace with decentralized data saving system isn't that hard to create and unilaterally aplpicable and a cheap aswell as effective meassure.

Aye and we already have them, so how the government failed to make one and how its now postponed until sometime in winter is beyond me. We've the technology out there; multiple industry examples etc...

Then again Epic has millions upon millions and still can't make an online shop with a shopping cart feature.


Sometimes projects just have the wrong people or the wrong priorities or the wrong politics all wrapped up in them.

This pretty much sums up a lot of issues, the upper Part of beeing ignorant torwards improvement the lower Part of beeing resistant to change /corrupt or flat out incompetently handled.

tneva82 wrote:
Numbers don't lie. Sweden has lot more cases per population than denmark and finland for example.

Sweden took it's route. Fine. But bear the effect with pride rather than complain. Because sweden's policy there's now fresh corona wave in north-west finland. That's why swede's are not welcome. Get the corona into control and then you are. But as long as you put economy first that's not happening.

Sweden CHOSE to have their people not be able to go to many countries and many countries blocking sweden as country go. Sweden's choice. Don't complain about your own decisions

That's like complaining you are broke after throwing everything to roulette and losing. Your choice, don't complain about results

Why are Finns and Danes still allowed to go to Sweden then? Because it's inconsistent points-scoring populism. It doesn't primarily have anything to do with our failure (and it is, currently, a failure) but rather with cheap domestic populism.

And, again, if "numbers don't lie" then why are people from Malmö not allowed to go to Copenhagen, but Copenhageners going to Malmö is A-OK? Because it's all bs. That's not Sweden's decision, that's Denmark being populist.

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:

tneva82 wrote:
Numbers don't lie. Sweden has lot more cases per population than denmark and finland for example.

Sweden took it's route. Fine. But bear the effect with pride rather than complain. Because sweden's policy there's now fresh corona wave in north-west finland. That's why swede's are not welcome. Get the corona into control and then you are. But as long as you put economy first that's not happening.

Sweden CHOSE to have their people not be able to go to many countries and many countries blocking sweden as country go. Sweden's choice. Don't complain about your own decisions

That's like complaining you are broke after throwing everything to roulette and losing. Your choice, don't complain about results

Why are Finns and Danes still allowed to go to Sweden then? Because it's inconsistent points-scoring populism. It doesn't primarily have anything to do with our failure (and it is, currently, a failure) but rather with cheap domestic populism.

And, again, if "numbers don't lie" then why are people from Malmö not allowed to go to Copenhagen, but Copenhageners going to Malmö is A-OK? Because it's all bs. That's not Sweden's decision, that's Denmark being populist.

and yet the WHO also rated sweden as especially at risk for resurgence.

Not Online!!! wrote:

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:

tneva82 wrote:
Numbers don't lie. Sweden has lot more cases per population than denmark and finland for example.

Sweden took it's route. Fine. But bear the effect with pride rather than complain. Because sweden's policy there's now fresh corona wave in north-west finland. That's why swede's are not welcome. Get the corona into control and then you are. But as long as you put economy first that's not happening.

Sweden CHOSE to have their people not be able to go to many countries and many countries blocking sweden as country go. Sweden's choice. Don't complain about your own decisions

That's like complaining you are broke after throwing everything to roulette and losing. Your choice, don't complain about results

Why are Finns and Danes still allowed to go to Sweden then? Because it's inconsistent points-scoring populism. It doesn't primarily have anything to do with our failure (and it is, currently, a failure) but rather with cheap domestic populism.

And, again, if "numbers don't lie" then why are people from Malmö not allowed to go to Copenhagen, but Copenhageners going to Malmö is A-OK? Because it's all bs. That's not Sweden's decision, that's Denmark being populist.

and yet the WHO also rated sweden as especially at risk for resurgence.

And then retracted the statement a few hours later.

Look, I'm not debating the pros and cons of the Swedish response, I'm pointing out that it's entirely reasonable to react when another country does something stupid, and that it remains stupid no matter how many times someone calls it "petulant". The same way that it is entirely reasonable for Denmark, Norway and Finland to be sceptical of Sweden right now provided they are so in a manner that makes sense rather than populist bs. If Swedes can't go to Denmark, why can Danes go to Sweden? It makes 0 sense other than as political grandstanding. THAT is what I object to, and what is being labelled as "petulant".

I guess this is technically politics, so I'll stop.

Lmao at the chuckleheads in the thread panicking over "THE SLOW DESCENT INTO TOTALITARIANISM" and clutching their pearls at potentially being made to write down their name and address to enter certain private properties in order to make use of their services in the midst of a pandemic with over 10mil confirmed cases and about a 5% death rate, while completely ignoring extrajudicial police killings, politicians muzzling scientists who don't agree with them, rampant government corruption, historical revisionism, blaming foreign actors and insidious (fictional) left-wing cabals for society's ills is like... wowaweewa.

Let's be honest. If the State wants your personal data? They'll already have it. Proxies and burner hardware etc etc etc don't really get you very far at all. If the cops can bust people using that stuff, what the hell do you think the intelligence services can do? The real *real* reason that they aren't doing it now is the same as it's been since snooping on the plebs began. There simply isn't the manpower to spy on your entire population. You aren't interesting enough to the government for them to bother.



I've been keeping out of this thread because MY WORD. There are some really gak TAKES up in here. I'm really, truly convinced, that for those howling for "evidence", nothing will actually change their minds. We've got WHO stats that are truly grim. We've had footage and accounts from front-line medical theaters that is utterly harrowing. Entire sub-continents have gone into lockdown, starting one of the worst financial lowpoints in a century. Some of the most logic-defyingly stubborn governments in recent memory have been forced to totally backtrack and eat the humblest of pies. Second waves, and first waves that were never really properly controlled are now springing up across the world, from Texas to Leicester, Southern Italy and Seoul. I really do think that the only thing that could possibly persuade some people of the real severity of this situation was only if they themselves spun around and decided they were still right all along, just in a different way.

Let's be very real. There probably won't ever actually be reliable stats on this ever. At best, we'll have close estimates. Even then, it'll really only be clear after the worst of this has totally, thoroughly passed us over. The West truly jumped on a gakky horse with the whole "well, China is probably massaging their numbers, too, so..." Western nations really had a clean run at this for the most part, but instead failed to act and turned it (insanely) into a politics game.

Here in East Asia, we've been living in the shadow of the virus for 6 months. I don't know about you fellas complaining about having to possibly give your name and some contact details, but I imagine that you're all big enough boys to be able to do it a little faster than me, writing in about 4 different writing systems if I occasionally have to do it.

...it's really not that big of a deal. It's really interesting to me to imagine what the whingers and moaners here would have been doing in other times of crisis and emergency when people were asked to make sacrifices for the overall betterment of their fellow man.
I've been working all through this. Even when my area was the worst per 100 people in the entire country, we were at work. The bloke who sits opposite me at work has a pretty compromised immune system. He's a right laugh, but for months he's been on edge.
Kids have only just come back in the last 2 weeks. People are only just starting to come out of their homes in their free time now. We've yet to see how it will pan out. It could well be a disaster. Tokyo is already not in great shape. I traveled through Osaka a week ago, and I've never seen Kansai people look more miserable, living with the constant vigilance against the virus that we all have to constantly maintain. It's exhausting. There was never the luxury of a lockdown here. Some stuff stayed open, other stuff went out of business because of lack of customers. One thing I think we have gotten right since the start in Japan is that the people here are responsible enough, and self-aware enough to protect themselves, and also those around them, even if...

...this'll shock some of you to your core...

...it means a minor inconvenience. Just imagine. Being that civically minded. Like, actually giving a feth about the well-being of those around you, even if they are strangers. Doing what you can. Accepting that there is a problem, it's not completely understood, but listening to those who've Mad that, isn't it. Almost like it's worked pretty well, especially compared to some countries.

What's really worrying is that, in a seemingly desperate attempt to get ratings back on track, a number of politicians in the West are trying to just give the "Give me convenience or give me death!" crowd. The lockdown genie is out of the bottle now, and...

...I'm really concerned for the wellbeing of the people that I love. I really hope that all of you take care.

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:

Not Online!!! wrote:

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:

tneva82 wrote:
Numbers don't lie. Sweden has lot more cases per population than denmark and finland for example.

Sweden took it's route. Fine. But bear the effect with pride rather than complain. Because sweden's policy there's now fresh corona wave in north-west finland. That's why swede's are not welcome. Get the corona into control and then you are. But as long as you put economy first that's not happening.

Sweden CHOSE to have their people not be able to go to many countries and many countries blocking sweden as country go. Sweden's choice. Don't complain about your own decisions

That's like complaining you are broke after throwing everything to roulette and losing. Your choice, don't complain about results

Why are Finns and Danes still allowed to go to Sweden then? Because it's inconsistent points-scoring populism. It doesn't primarily have anything to do with our failure (and it is, currently, a failure) but rather with cheap domestic populism.

And, again, if "numbers don't lie" then why are people from Malmö not allowed to go to Copenhagen, but Copenhageners going to Malmö is A-OK? Because it's all bs. That's not Sweden's decision, that's Denmark being populist.

and yet the WHO also rated sweden as especially at risk for resurgence.

And then retracted the statement a few hours later.

Look, I'm not debating the pros and cons of the Swedish response, I'm pointing out that it's entirely reasonable to react when another country does something stupid, and that it remains stupid no matter how many times someone calls it "petulant". The same way that it is entirely reasonable for Denmark, Norway and Finland to be sceptical of Sweden right now provided they are so in a manner that makes sense rather than populist bs. If Swedes can't go to Denmark, why can Danes go to Sweden? It makes 0 sense other than as political grandstanding. THAT is what I object to, and what is being labelled as "petulant".

I guess this is technically politics, so I'll stop.

now now, i never said that you were wrong
I am just saying there are valid reasons which could justify such an reaction, but considering as you stated with denmarks stance f.e. i feel like that is nonsense, because if you get the virus from your own traveling fellow citizens or from strangers that are visiting your own country doesn't matter in the least now does.

So they get everyone's contacts. They get an alert. Then what? They look when the person visited, but did they go around the whole shop, or just one aisle? do they contact everyone who was in the shop that day? Only after that person came in? The people who shopped the day after? 2 days after? Do all the staff who were present have to self isolate or only the one who served them? how will the know who that was? everyone will be self isolating for the rest of their lives. This is why I oppose it. Nothing to do with 'totalitarianism' (a word I don't believe I've ever used in reference to this issue). But because it's just stupid. simply, in a word. Making out like it's all for some common good doesn't change the fact that it's useless bluster, rolled out to make the people whom those same institutions crippled with fear in the first place, feel a little safer. A duvet to hide under from the monster.
Once you realise that we aren't going to app, or one way supermarket system away this virus, you realise that the best thing to do is just go about your life, taking reasonable and practical precautions wherever you can, and you'll be much happier for it.

In theory if the whole nation self isolated for 2 weeks the virus would be a non-issue. Those who have it would be well known and could be treated; those who don't have it would be able to get on with their lives.

We can't really do that however, so track and trace is the next best. Instead of everyone having to self isolate only those who might have been exposed are forced to self isolate for two weeks. It massively shuts down the potential of the virus to spread.

Masks and handwashing and social distancing further helps reduce potential spread, but its not a sure solution. They help reduce the impact of someone who is a carrier from spreading the disease, but it will still spread. So you lockdown those who are exposed for a short period of time and that shuts down its ability to spread fully.

 queen_annes_revenge wrote:
do they contact everyone who was in the shop that day?

yeah, tbh I think this is completely reasonable. Additionally, it'll let customers who were in the shop that day try to assess how at risk they are.

 queen_annes_revenge wrote:
Do all the staff who were present have to self isolate or only the one who served them?

I don't think it's unreasonable to try to protect the staff who are most at risk personally, and by being infected, would potentially cause more infections. If staff cannot be tested, cannot be supplied with adequate protective equipment, then I think it's perfectly reasonably that they should self-quaratine, if they've potentially been exposed to the virus, in the same way as medical staff, or any other "essential" workers might. It's what's been happening here. It's not fantastic, but none of this situation is. Just working in a shop does not mean that you deserve to be regularly exposed to a potentially life-threatening illness.

 queen_annes_revenge wrote:
everyone will be self isolating for the rest of their lives.

This is utter hyperbole. I don't believe for a minute that you actually think that the current situation will last for the rest of the population at large's life. Neither do I. In real terms, I hope this whole thing will be short-lived.

 queen_annes_revenge wrote:
This is why I oppose it. Nothing to do with 'totalitarianism' (a word I don't believe I've ever used in reference to this issue). But because it's just stupid. simply, in a word. Making out like it's all for some common good doesn't change the fact that it's useless bluster, rolled out to make the people whom those same institutions crippled with fear in the first place, feel a little safer.

The same institutions that told you all there was absolutely nothing to worry about for like 2 months before the first wave? The same institutions desperate for everyone to go back to work in the hopes that the economy will just spring back into life? The same institutions that are losing money on oil, on wearhouses, on missed public events, taxes ad infinitum? Please be more specific, which institutions are actually enjoying this whole thing?

 queen_annes_revenge wrote:
Once you realise that we aren't going to app, or one way supermarket system away this virus, you realise that the best thing to do is just go about your life, taking reasonable and practical precautions wherever you can, and you'll be much happier for it.

Reasonable and practical precautions such as social distancing in public spaces and logging the places you've been, perchance?

Can we all agree to put QAR on ignore so the thread can move in a productive direction? He/she is essentially trolling at this point: posting deliberately contrary viewpoints and repeating falsehoods ad nauseam with any sort of logical chain thrown by the wayside. IMO it may not violate rule 1 in letter but it certainly does in spirit.

We banned politics because one or two posters were doing that exact same thing. The only solution is to ban discussion of pandemics.

done

No, there is another solution where we cut out the problem elements. We didn't try that before and it has now become a problem elsewhere. We could ban this thread, and it would crop up again somewhere else.

 NinthMusketeer wrote:
Can we all agree to put QAR on ignore so the thread can move in a productive direction? He/she is essentially trolling at this point: posting deliberately contrary viewpoints and repeating falsehoods ad nauseam with any sort of logical chain thrown by the wayside. IMO it may not violate rule 1 in letter but it certainly does in spirit.

Sorry, am I spoiling your epistemic bubble?


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 NinthMusketeer wrote:
No, there is another solution where we cut out the problem elements. We didn't try that before and it has now become a problem elsewhere. We could ban this thread, and it would crop up again somewhere else.

Yup, just cancel culture your way out of hearing differing opinions so you can gorge on your groupthink. ignorance is bliss.

 NinthMusketeer wrote:
No, there is another solution where we cut out the problem elements. We didn't try that before and it has now become a problem elsewhere. We could ban this thread, and it would crop up again somewhere else.

Dakka does not ban bad faith posters! Never, no matter how disruptive they are to the site and its reputation! How dare you!

 posermcbogus wrote:

Reasonable and practical precautions such as social distancing in public spaces and logging the places you've been, perchance?

Absolutely. but not forcing people to comply through fear of not being able to buy food.

 BobtheInquisitor wrote:

 NinthMusketeer wrote:
No, there is another solution where we cut out the problem elements. We didn't try that before and it has now become a problem elsewhere. We could ban this thread, and it would crop up again somewhere else.

Dakka does not ban bad faith posters! Never, no matter how disruptive they are to the site and its reputation! How dare you!

We as a community are capable of ignoring them ourselves, Dakka has provided tools to facilitate that. And I think in a thread discussing a topic with a massive number of lives being lost it is worth such a small effort.

https://www.statnews.com/2020/06/29/gilead-announces-remdesivir-price-covid-19/

So Gilead has developed a drug which can reduce the time in hospital for Covid 19 patients.

It took public funds for researching, and expects to charge 3,000 or so to USA patients.

They think research will cost them a billion by the end of the year. And they'll sell 6.7 billion worth of the stuff by next year.

And their shareholders are mad at this. You would think even doubling their money would be sufficient in a pandemic, but no, 5x profit is necessary.

Right.

Slight change of topic. In the U.K., we’re starting to see the easing of Lockdown (no, whether it’s too soon or not doesn’t matter for this post).

That means shops are starting to re-open, and I for one am very much looking forward to visiting the pub on Saturday.

And as much as I urge everyone to exercise caution (PPE, wear a mask. Hygiene? Wash your hands. Staff? Don’t be difficult with them.) I also urge you to Shop Local.

It may be a bit more expensive, but it’ll have a stronger benefit to your local economy than giving your money to a larger, national or international business.

By this I mean....kids want an ice cream? Swing by your corner shop or local cafe. Fancy a take away for dinner? Go for a local company, not a big name. Need some new clothes? Use local shops where practicable.

Don’t go breaking your budget though. If you need big retailer value, let none judge you for that.

But if your budget allows, go as small and local as you can.

I'm a bit worried folk will be a bit mental come Saturday

But have already started to shop local admittedly it was comics and nerd supplies but every little helps *( *other evil food barns are also available, offer excludes Waitrose cos Shire)

I’ll be playing Trip To Pub by ear.

I’ve got my face masks, and a decent grasp of hygiene. I’ll likely be on my Jack Jones, but may also arrange belated birthday drinkies (basically I’ll do a lot for free beer!)

If on my own, I’ll be re-Reading the collected Nikolai Dante volumes of the 2000AD mega-collection, so between beers I can sit quite happily with my mask on. Heck, even between sips/slugs of beer.

However, if it’s getting too rammed, I’ll just up and go home. Wouldn’t mind getting tiddled and possibly even porched, but not at the expense of my health.

well youre getting on and at your age you cant be too careful (belated huppy big burpday)

sadly the only local pub with any reasonable amount of outside for me to feel okay with is an old manor house that looks like a castle so run the risk of myopic holiday folk over-running it

I’ll have you know I’m in rude health, can out drink most people, and still don’t get hangovers as such!

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
I’ll have you know I’m in rude health, can out drink most people, and still don’t get hangovers as such!

As long as you aren't drinking Corona you should be fine!

Not Online!!! wrote:

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
I’ll have you know I’m in rude health, can out drink most people, and still don’t get hangovers as such!

Spoiler:

Look more like Hagrid, thank you

Leicester will be the first localised lockdown in the UK, with the changes scheduled to come into effect on the 4th postponed and non essential shops to.close one more.

 Azreal13 wrote:
Leicester will be the first localised lockdown in the UK, with the changes scheduled to come into effect on the 4th postponed and non essential shops to.close one more.

First but unlikely to be the last.

As far as retail vs local small retail discussions in coronavirus goes, I can point out two things that are CRITICAL items economically at this juncture.

Many small businesses have been operating at a low income state for a long time now, and are struggling to get by. (Exacerbated severely in the USA where many such places got burned to the ground, of course, or are in riot zones not really conducive to social hanging out.) That's point one, and shopping locally for a bit is perhaps going to save a few such places that would otherwise die on the vine because...

The subsidy extra unemployment checks of an additional 600 a week on top of uninsurance (in virginia, this means an average retail employed person who got let go about 3 months ago has been comfortably banking nearly twice their normal salary just by staying unemployed) ... that's run out of time on a lot of people, and even if they still have unemployment to draw (I believe its 3 months from first check) the subsidy money (2/3 of it) is going away at the end of july.

So in 4 weeks, all the people who right now are ordering pizza and tipping 10 bucks cause, meh, its free money for sitting at home all day, they won't be ordering pizza no more, and they may not be shopping locally any more, either. When you go down to 330 a week from 930, you start to make real choices, and all those people will NOT be able to suddenly and magically be employed again. Many businesses are still contracted in their income so much they can't keep a full staff on. Restaurants and small similar enterprises like bakeries tend to have the owners working extra shifts in them now, and still be half staffed, because they can't afford to bring other people on.

(note that the stupidly high unemployment insurance is WHY people in retail have stayed out of work this long, no matter the requests from those businesses that seek to hire them, because oyu would have to pay basically utterly unskilled labor something like 23 bucks an hour for them to earn as much money as they have been earning staying home. That's not gonna happen to a dishwasher (which is a 7.5 dollar an hour position, or even to a front of house restaurant person or lower manager in a retail store or such. So yeah, the upshot is, in the next few weeks, the serious economic consequences of the coronavirus will finally hit the USA -- something that we have papered over in bad debts and loose spending up to now, and avoided noticing.

So yeah. I don't know if its wiser to advise people to totally shop big box and buy bulk items for rice, beans, and corn dishes 6 days a week, or if its best to advise them to what the hell, its only bankruptcy, shop on the small shop economy and pay 5 bucks for green peppers that are 1.56 at walmart.

I just know its coming up on chickens to roost time, and a lot of places that have been hanging on by slim margins may not have a margin to hang on much longer. Political divisiveness has been noted in the US's federal system of government, meaning another bailout is less likely than one would like, given the severe nature of this downturn and crisis.

It sort of doesn't matter any more how much paper money we print, we past that rubicon and zeroxed a few trillion dollar bills already this year, the money WILL devalue in the near term and perhaps by as much as (real terms) about 25 percent. Add that onto the rising cost of raw food materials and the supplies going into them, and you could end up with an 8 dollar beet at the local organic health food schmallshop, and a 3 or 4 dollar green pepper in walmart (not even organic, the barbarians!)

So yeah, I dont know where this is headed, but I know that this economy, its serious time now.

Hah, extra 600 for unemployment? My application from fething March has not even been processed.

Flu virus with 'pandemic potential' found in China

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-53218704

This is why we need a proper functioning track test and isolate system

Tipping $10?
Ordering pizza all the time?
Many such places got burned?

Wow....agenda much?

 Azreal13 wrote:
Leicester will be the first localised lockdown in the UK, with the changes scheduled to come into effect on the 4th postponed and non essential shops to.close one more.

This is after the schrodingeresque lockdown in Weston-super-Mare one assumes ?

Ideal tactic really : do not actually have a lockdown and then just simply claim you did.

Bound to go well.

.. getting a bit worried about the NYT coverage of the UK




... But who amongst us has not taken time to delve through the humidity of the Southcoast English bayou ..

Guessing/hoping they've misunderstood exactly what Hackney Marshes actually is, but in strange days like these....

 Kilkrazy wrote:
Flu virus with 'pandemic potential' found in China

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-53218704

This is why we need a proper functioning track test and isolate system

feth me here we go again.

How about we just agree to not let people in/out of china and to simply bathe all the products they send in disinfectant before shipping them out.

The first sounds somewhat extreme, but considering how many of these pandemics start in their population pool it might actually be prudent to have a blanket 2 week quarantine on all people leaving the country. At the very least it might help contain things in China.



Then again perhaps the media is already bored with corona and is looking for a new plague .

Has anyone heard anything on the reported chinese military getting a vaccine for covid approved for its soldiers? Apparently also involving a major test in Sao paolo, Brazil?

If there was a working vaccine I'd have thought it would be massive news. Saying that the military has it and no one else almost sounds like its rumour/conspiracy level thinking. That or its mixing things up such as how the military can be used as part of scientific studies so it could just be part of normal vaccine trials being run simply using the military as a pool of humans to work with.

A quick google says that they approved a vaccine candidate for testing by the military. That's not so noteworthy, candidates are going into human testibg worldwide.

if it indeed would work, then they'd have thrown it out allready just for the sake of money and ecnomic stabilisation.

Not Online!!! wrote:
if it indeed would work, then they'd have thrown it out allready just for the sake of money and ecnomic stabilisation.

Pretty much this.

I know there’s one vaccine currently undergoing human trials in the U.K.

What’s important to note of course is that this is accelerated testing. And to be honest, I hope that where any fail, the findings are passed on to other research groups, if for no other reason than to prevent multiple teams barking up the same wrong tree.

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:

Not Online!!! wrote:
if it indeed would work, then they'd have thrown it out allready just for the sake of money and ecnomic stabilisation.

Pretty much this.

I know there’s one vaccine currently undergoing human trials in the U.K.

What’s important to note of course is that this is accelerated testing. And to be honest, I hope that where any fail, the findings are passed on to other research groups, if for no other reason than to prevent multiple teams barking up the same wrong tree.

If it's any comfort, an awful lot of research for COVID and COVID-related subjects have been open access for quite some time.

Suffice it to say that of the major world players, Corona being active in the world doesn't benefit any of them. So having research open-access makes perfect sense. The sooner we've better medication and can tackle it the better things get. Even poorer nations want it gone; you can't support your tourist industry if the tourists from richer nations are not flying; heck if your workers do shift work in richer nations that whole network has also been under strain as well.


Basically a global pandemic benefits no nation unless you're totally isolated from the world anyway.

Of course nations still play sillies with the numbers for both national and international reasons.

https://amp.theguardian.com/us-news/2020/jun/30/us-buys-up-world-stock-of-key-covid-19-drug

Is the US setting the parameters for future international relations here?

What happens if another nation comes up with a vaccine and takes the lead from the US now?

Basically its Trumps only "Trump card" to throw the US wealth/influence around. It's not surprising, other nations will do exactly the same and you can bet most "first world" nations got to supplies before poorer nations.

It won't earn the USA any respect internationally, but nationally its a big thing.

It's also nothing new, we've seen them intercept and otherwise try to bribe/force to get supplies of PPE and other elements.

Okay, so I work in the industry.

Clinical research comes in phases. There are MANY COVID-19 trials underway, and some vaccines have made it out of phase 1 and 2. If the Chinese are shooting up their soldiers, it may be one of those. That doesn't mean it's been approved or will be.

Basically they'd be giving their troops a vax that generates some immune response (it would have to do that to get out of the early phases, and it wouldn't make much sense to be doing phase 1/2 research with such a large group of subjects) without much knowledge about little things like ACTUAL efficacy or long-term safety. Immune response <> efficacy. It may very well have no benefit and/or have longer-term health risks, but you know, totalitarian states and all that. I can believe that the Chinese would do that on a non-voluntary basis, and I could also believe that the media would be incapable of putting this news in any kind of proper context.

There are things that they're doing to accelerate the overall process, but you can't actually accelerate the research. Time itself is key. In a phase 3 trial (last step before approval...or not), you can probably expect that the subjects will need to be followed for 6+ months to get to get relevant data.

Tbf , the soldiers as Target shows some confidence in it imo ,. especially when uygurs exist for such non -voluntary Option of test subjects...

Not Online!!! wrote:
Tbf , the soldiers as Target shows some confidence in it imo ,. especially when uygurs exist for such non -voluntary Option of test subjects...

I agree with this. The chinese government has a flawless record when it comes to being absolutely free of any trace of human decency or compassion, so I always knew they would not even think about hesitating to use human being they had no regard for as unwilling test subjects. Their soldiers are seen as a useful resource so i'm sure they went thru a lot of dissidents, malcontents and people that just didn't fully toe the party live before injecting their enforcement agents with anything.

Those used who survived will probably be kept in slave labor camps for the rest of their lives or quietly eliminated to avoid discomforting the chinese government by telling the world what was done to them.

Meanwhile in america we have senators saying we should ignore medical experts on the covid situation because "They might be wrong" even as covid cases in america now skyrocket after restrictions have been eased exactly as experts said it would. I've heard we could reach 400,000 cases a day now.

Not Online!!! wrote:
Tbf , the soldiers as Target shows some confidence in it imo ,. especially when uygurs exist for such non -voluntary Option of test subjects...

I think it's more about being able to use them as a control group. Knowing where they are, who they're interacting with. It's not like soldiers are considered valuable by their respective countries. And China has one hell of an army size wise.

I've been hearing that the EU will not allow americans in due to covid concerns and our countries disastrous failure at containing it.

I want to ask people in the EU if this is true as I don't trust a lot of US media and suspect these claims might possibly be attempts to gin up hostility in america towards europe and promote a "hell with the rest of the world" attitude to foster isolationist tendencies.

So if you live in the EU do you know if it's true that it's going to exclude or restrict amnericans when it reopens?

cody.d. wrote:

Not Online!!! wrote:
Tbf , the soldiers as Target shows some confidence in it imo ,. especially when uygurs exist for such non -voluntary Option of test subjects...

I think it's more about being able to use them as a control group. Knowing where they are, who they're interacting with. It's not like soldiers are considered valuable by their respective countries. And China has one hell of an army size wise.

Erm due to the structures and close associations of the peoples army with the Party (and only the Party) it's safe to say that they certainly are not bottom of the crop,probably even higher then average citizens.

But as a controll Group yes it seems rather likely.



Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Matt Swain wrote:
I've been hearing that the EU will not allow americans in due to covid concerns and our countries disastrous failure at containing it.

I want to ask people in the EU if this is true as I don't trust a lot of US media and suspect these claims might possibly be attempts to gin up hostility in america towards europe and promote a "hell with the rest of the world" attitude to foster isolationist tendencies.

So if you live in the EU do you know if it's true that it's going to exclude or restrict amnericans when it reopens?

Actually they just kept the initial ban in place and have put both russia and the USA in the Same category.

I dunno, you generally build a military with the intention of expending it's individuals. And usually those expenditures are purely to further the goal of the party financing things. Besides, those ties would be with the higher ranking elements of the military, who I doubt would be given experimental vaccines and the like that have any chance of killing them. The rank and file often have less value than the equipment they carry.

cody.d. wrote:
I dunno, you generally build a military with the intention of expending it's individuals. And usually those expenditures are purely to further the goal of the party financing things. Besides, those ties would be with the higher ranking elements of the military, who I doubt would be given experimental vaccines and the like that have any chance of killing them. The rank and file often have less value than the equipment they carry.

The military is first and foremost the controll Tool of the Party if their other Systems fail. And an in General immense power broker considering how many posts are covered by generals.
It's loyality is to the Party and the Party alone, it's not a peoples army really for which you have the duty to the whole collective of the Nation above Party ties.

To even compare it to armies that follow an levée on massé principle or General conscription one is to severly misunderstand it and it's own perception and ethos. It's more like Party armies of other extreme Ideologies, not dissimiliar to the SA or the blackshirts or other Party paramilitaries.
Compare that to other "mass armies" , which relly on mass conscription etc. It's a completely diffrent idea behind it and a diffrent ethos aswell.

So the Chinese army is just like the imperial guard then. The soldier's lives are worth less than they gear they're issued and the main purpose of the army is to crush dissent and enforce utter obedience.

I still believe the vaccines were tested for at least a couple weeks on "undesirables" first, that's just the chinese government SOP. Let's not forget the chinese government 'executes" people over dissent then sells the organs for transplant surgery.

Thanks for the info on the travel restrictions on americans, I suspect a lot of american media will still make it like europe is giving the finger to america, because ghawd forbid they admit it;s because america failed to deal with covid in an intelligent, effective manner.

 Matt Swain wrote:
So the Chinese army is just like the imperial guard then. The soldier's lives are worth less than they gear they're issued and the main purpose of the army is to crush dissent and enforce utter obedience.

I still believe the vaccines were tested for at least a couple weeks on "undesirables" first, that's just the chinese government SOP. Let's not forget the chinese government 'executes" people over dissent then sells the organs for transplant surgery.

Thanks for the info on the travel restrictions on americans, I suspect a lot of american media will still make it like europe is giving the finger to america, because ghawd forbid they admit it;s because america failed to deal with covid in an intelligent, effective manner.

I don't think we even know how many people the CPC executes each year, though people have estimated 2K+

But my statement still stands, I have doubts the party values the lives of any of it's soldiers beyond what power they can bring.

This is both expected and somewhat surprising.

https://www.inquirer.com/health/coronavirus/coronavirus-no-spike-cities-despite-protests-big-surge-in-states-that-reopened-20200627.html?fbclid=IwAR1BOi5OV6pNLHmhKbIs2b69Y6Hd73G2CiJ3tMiEIs5F913KSL7Kzz0IUUk

IF, and that is a big if, this news is true and I don't claim it is, then as predicted the states that loosened or ended covid control restrictions have seen a huge spike in new cases. As one would expect.

However the states that had huge mass gatherings and protests against police murder and brutality have not seen any spikes in covid after 2 weeks.

I'm trying to think of explanations for this, s far I have:

-The news is false.

-Many protesters i saw were wearing masks. This affected the spread.

-many people did catch covid but were not diagnosed.

-Some environmental factor? Not sure what it could be. strong winds scattering the particles to the point few inhaled enough to initiate infection?

This should be researched to a fair degree. If the news is true then we may learn something about how this disease spreads in wide open air environs.

 Matt Swain wrote:
This is both expected and somewhat surprising.

https://www.inquirer.com/health/coronavirus/coronavirus-no-spike-cities-despite-protests-big-surge-in-states-that-reopened-20200627.html?fbclid=IwAR1BOi5OV6pNLHmhKbIs2b69Y6Hd73G2CiJ3tMiEIs5F913KSL7Kzz0IUUk

IF, and that is a big if, this news is true and I don't claim it is, then as predicted the states that loosened or ended covid control restrictions have seen a huge spike in new cases. As one would expect.

However the states that had huge mass gatherings and protests against police murder and brutality have not seen any spikes in covid after 2 weeks.

I'm trying to think of explanations for this, s far I have:

-The news is false.

-Many protesters i saw were wearing masks. This affected the spread.

-many people did catch covid but were not diagnosed.

-Some environmental factor? Not sure what it could be. strong winds scattering the particles to the point few inhaled enough to initiate infection?

This should be researched to a fair degree. If the news is true then we may learn something about how this disease spreads in wide open air environs.

There has been similar things in Australia, several protests for BLM but far, far fewer reported cases for a mass gathering of that size. But 2 people who slipped out of an isolation area managed to create an outbreak in Victora. As you say, could be several different factors at play.

Hmm, I had never even heard australia had a problem with police and blacks let alone that BLM was there.

If the same pattern of mass open air demonstrations not leading to a spike in covid is happening there then this really does merit some real investigation.

 Matt Swain wrote:
Hmm, I had never even heard australia had a problem with police and blacks let alone that BLM was there.

If the same pattern of mass open air demonstrations not leading to a spike in covid is happening there then this really does merit some real investigation.

It's not nearly as bad as it is in USA but yeah, there is a noticeable increase in arrests or excessive uses of force against aboriginal people. I know it's slightly off topic but you may find this article interesting.https://www.msn.com/en-au/news/australia/sick-to-my-stomach-indigenous-activist-jacinta-price-slams-virtue-signalling-black-lives-matter-protesters-and-says-they-arent-interested-in-aboriginal-deaths-unless-they-are-killed-by-white-men/ar-BB15cm7O?ocid=spartanntp

Though it is on topic I remember hearing that black communities are more severely affected by covid than communities of other backgrounds. Possibly due to access to medical care?

Well, hopefully not offending anyone but yes it does seem like covid is hitting non whites harder in america, according to basic statistics.

I don't want to get into that lest it open a very large can of very nasty worms tho.

 Overread wrote:
Basically its Trumps only "Trump card" to throw the US wealth/influence around. It's not surprising, other nations will do exactly the same and you can bet most "first world" nations got to supplies before poorer nations.

It won't earn the USA any respect internationally, but nationally its a big thing.

It's also nothing new, we've seen them intercept and otherwise try to bribe/force to get supplies of PPE and other elements.

Yep. Anybody who thinks US is some sort of benign ally is kidding themselves.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Matt Swain wrote:
I've been hearing that the EU will not allow americans in due to covid concerns and our countries disastrous failure at containing it.

I want to ask people in the EU if this is true as I don't trust a lot of US media and suspect these claims might possibly be attempts to gin up hostility in america towards europe and promote a "hell with the rest of the world" attitude to foster isolationist tendencies.

So if you live in the EU do you know if it's true that it's going to exclude or restrict amnericans when it reopens?

There's just FIFTEEN countries from the world(outside EU) that are on recommended list of "free to come". US is not one of those yes.

Mind you that's just recommendation as EU can't legally enforce it. It's up to each country how they follow it.

EU had outside borders(and largely inside borders as well) closed for a while. But as things are calming down borders are being opened with countries that meet certain criteria. US has infection cases coming up fast enough it's not on free list.

It's not specifically anti-america move. As said it's just 15 countries. Even inside EU some countries aren't welcome. Sweden has managed to isolate itself out from being able to visit(or being allowed target) with it's policies as well.

Country needs to have rate of infection below certain treshhold before it gets added to the list of countries recommended to be allowed to come freely. Numbers. America gets it's rate under that and it's added to the list(not the moment it does that though. List is updated in 2 week cycles)

edit: Oh and another requirement is that there shouldn't be doubt about RELIABILITY of data. No cases of "suddenly jumping out of window" so to speak.

tneva82 wrote:

 Overread wrote:
Basically its Trumps only "Trump card" to throw the US wealth/influence around. It's not surprising, other nations will do exactly the same and you can bet most "first world" nations got to supplies before poorer nations.

It won't earn the USA any respect internationally, but nationally its a big thing.

It's also nothing new, we've seen them intercept and otherwise try to bribe/force to get supplies of PPE and other elements.

Yep. Anybody who thinks US is some sort of benign ally is kidding themselves.

Lets be fair though, this is exactly what happened with the swine fluc vaccine in the US and Europe. They bought up most of the stocks, leaving poorer countries without. As predictable that it is that Trump will turn this up to 11, it isn't exactly a new thing. Even European countries have formed small groups to buy up stocks of potential vaccines.

And here i thought the who wanted to Make it accessible for all countries?

That statement hasn't aged so well.but the WHO anyways has Made a real Bad Figure so far....

When a drug is accessible to all nations that just means there's no trade embargoes and such. If one nation manages to buy all the stock then that's it.

The core of the issue is that there just isn't enough of the drug for the whole world to have it at once when most of the world wants it at the same time. So there will always be shortages. Firstworld nations will fight over it; then they'll fight over donating to poorer nations to secure their support (eg I'd wager you might see China donate to African nations etc....).



As for protests there's a few potential elements to consider:
1) The protests were outside. It's basically shown that outside/windy conditions can help disperse the droplets and reduce the chance of infection spreading

2) Many were wearing masks, which has again been shown to help reduce the spread of the virus from infected people to others.

3) It might be that the spike is still to come and hasn't hit yet. Ergo that the "No Spike" is simply being announced too early.

4) It might be that many of the protesters came from a wide area of dispersal initially. Thus the first wave of spike infections isn't seen because its spread over the general increases in infection rate that the US is seeing right now. That the actual impact will be in 3-4 weeks when those who were infected have then infected families and coworkers and such and then we see a mass rise of spiked cases. So instead of the fewer protesters showing it up, its instead a few weeks later with everyone they infected being the real spike.

My concerns would be all those protests didn't just appear outside on the streets; they got there somehow. That means things like public transport and busses and coaches and the like as well as on food through streets and underpasses and the like. All perfectly good places for the virus to spread.

It would be heartening to think that a bit of wind can disrupt the virus spread that much (esp in the UK with all these outdoor beach gatherings); however I think that's a pipe dream at this stage

The UK vaccine is by a group including Oxford University and has been in human trials for some weeks. Some of my work colleagues are in the volunteer group, and wrote about their experience in the staff magazine.

If the BLM protests did not provoke a spike, some possible reasons are that it's a lot safer to stand outside 1 to 2 metre from mask-wearing people for a few seconds or minutes than it is to sit down in a bar or hairdresser for an extended period of time.

I mean, the chance of getting infected is influenced by how close you to an infected person, and for how long.

There's also the element that if you're walking around the streets,it's unlikely you are touching things with the virus on them, then touching your face.

Whereas if you got into a shop, the items you pick might have virus on them.

I was in the supermarket at the weekend. I saw a man who wasn't wearing a mask cough into his hand. He then went on shopping. At the till, the till guy was wearing a face shield and gloves. After handling the items he went and scratched his nose.

Those are behaviours which help spread infection.

 Matt Swain wrote:
Well, hopefully not offending anyone but yes it does seem like covid is hitting non whites harder in america, according to basic statistics.

I don't want to get into that lest it open a very large can of very nasty worms tho.

The least politically provocative statement that can be made about that is that there are a lot of minority people in "essential" jobs in our cities, while a lot of the city dwelling white people are in a point in their careers that do well as "work from home" and thus have had lower risk of infection in places like nyc. Part of this is age related -- the average age for a white person in the usa is 58, but the average age of minority folk in the USA is literally half that. The folks significantly older than 58 are likely to be retired, or at least, more likely than someone who is 30. Lots of people working as lower management at 28 years might be upper management by 58, and guess which management tells the other group to stay and run the store during the plague? Similarly, there are issues of density of housing, which tends to follow such things (30 years ago, a lot of the people now in retirement or semi-retirement may have been a lot less wealthy and tended to rent in lower cost, denser built living spaces. White flight into suburbs has been a documented trend since the 1960s and 70s. There are also plenty of comorbid health conditions, that also disproportionaly impact the minority populations--high blood pressure in african americans is a topic all its own and thought to be a legacy of the slave trade, genetically, but the upshot is, black american high blood pressure is qualitatively different in its treatement and pathology than non-black american high blood pressure. If I remember right, BP disfunction is a major, major risk of death for covid, so that one thing alone could in theory account for a lot of this difference. Even if the prevalence of the two racial groups for blood pressure issues were the same, the difference in severity would still exist, and the difference in exact cellular and physiologic pathology. None of this is "nasty" its just the way things have played out demographically in the US over the last century, but yeah, it is entirely possible that the virus picks on people of color for reasons other than the current US society.. Also, it occurs to me right now,I haven't heard about is the possibility that menthol cigarettes (whcih are in the USA nearly historically only a minority and female used item) may have given some baseline lung damage to those populations that non-menthol cigarettes may not have. (Menthol forms a substance rather like asbestos in the lungs, over time, its possible part of the issue is that a few decades ago, it wasn't particularly uncommon to have people smoking (who are now the people of the age to be affected by covid). In other words, there are lifestyle choices and factors that are related to the change in risk from covid that can probably explain a lot of this, even without positing that the virus itself has a racial agenda.
Finally, the US hispanic population appears to have been slow to hear the good words about covid prevention, for whatever reason. Perhaps during a culture war and such, trust of government experts being at an all time low, or perhaps because that group tends to be the youngest average age group,I can't guess. There have been some studies in virginia that showed strikingly high rates of seroconversion inside mainly hispanic housing areas -- take that with the grain of salt that serologic tests of unspecified manufacturer always get, a high false positive rate.

I believe the UK and other nations have identified that those of African decent have a higher chance of more serious complications from Corona, irrespective of other influences such as living conditions and life style. Far as I know there's no proven reason why, but then we are still very new to this virus.

Not Online!!! wrote:
And here i thought the who wanted to Make it accessible for all countries?

That statement hasn't aged so well.but the WHO anyways has Made a real Bad Figure so far....

That is what the WHO wants, but the WHO has no say in those matters. It can't force countries to cooperate and it doesn't have the funds to buy supplies like Western countries do. In these cases the WHO gets outbid and sidelined.

 Disciple of Fate wrote:

Not Online!!! wrote:
And here i thought the who wanted to Make it accessible for all countries?

That statement hasn't aged so well.but the WHO anyways has Made a real Bad Figure so far....

That is what the WHO wants, but the WHO has no say in those matters. It can't force countries to cooperate and it doesn't have the funds to buy supplies like Western countries do. In these cases the WHO gets outbid and sidelined.

Meh, maybee lessons will be learned, like decentralised mask production and other medicinal supplies, which would be damn important for everyone outside of china.....

Probably not, because that could cut into profit margins.

There was an open air funeral going on at the nearby church yesterday. The hymns were carrying all across the neighbourhood. These are strange times, yet I feel like a lot of us have become closer to strangers...ironically.

We’re moving to a different stage on Friday. I’m still going to wait to see how things pan out first before I start going out to places.

Incidentally, small correction -- my friend who is on the high unemployment confessed to me last night that HIS unemployment, specifically, is running out after 3 months, which makes some sense as he was unemployed some over the last year before covid came, and may have run his benefits out. Or, well, he could be lying cause he doesn't want to pay me back a loan, which I begin to think is what is going on and its somewhat unsettling to see such behavior in a friend I had to bail out.

This personal finance tragedy is relevant cause it means I misspoke in here. Its much more relevant because he owes me money, a debt he consistantly has been forgetting for about a year, and it looks like my friendship with him will be weakened a bit at my own kindness not being repaid when I know damn well his finances are stable again.

But .. while the big excess subsidy unemployment may end abruptly in end of july, there will continue, apparently, to be normal, but extended, unemployment out to 39 or so weeks. So perhaps not as dire an economic crash as it seemed looms.

 Kilkrazy wrote:
The UK vaccine is by a group including Oxford University and has been in human trials for some weeks. Some of my work colleagues are in the volunteer group, and wrote about their experience in the staff magazine.

If the BLM protests did not provoke a spike, some possible reasons are that it's a lot safer to stand outside 1 to 2 metre from mask-wearing people for a few seconds or minutes than it is to sit down in a bar or hairdresser for an extended period of time.

I mean, the chance of getting infected is influenced by how close you to an infected person, and for how long.

There's also the element that if you're walking around the streets,it's unlikely you are touching things with the virus on them, then touching your face.

Whereas if you got into a shop, the items you pick might have virus on them.

I was in the supermarket at the weekend. I saw a man who wasn't wearing a mask cough into his hand. He then went on shopping. At the till, the till guy was wearing a face shield and gloves. After handling the items he went and scratched his nose.

Those are behaviours which help spread infection.

Seems to be getting clearer that factors that will put you most at risk include:

- indoors without superior ventilation
- close proximity to others
- extended period of time
- lots of gum-flapping without masks

If bars/pubs, restaurants, churches, and workplaces sound like a four-bagger COVID home run...you would be correct, and most superspreader incidents seem to have happened in those places.

also its risky at home. Hi rise apartments with shared ventilation (usually in the form of kitchen and bathroom venting systems), close proximity to family members and an almost implausible task of treating the home folk like strangers in the covid age (who wears masks around their wife? around their kids?) .. extended time, etc etc, AND even sleeping next to them, both without masks. Many secondary spread sources are in the home (although the bit about air coming in from outside your home can be defended against.)

Dukeofstuff wrote:
also its risky at home. Hi rise apartments with shared ventilation (usually in the form of kitchen and bathroom venting systems), close proximity to family members and an almost implausible task of treating the home folk like strangers in the covid age (who wears masks around their wife? around their kids?) .. extended time, etc etc, AND even sleeping next to them, both without masks. Many secondary spread sources are in the home (although the bit about air coming in from outside your home can be defended against.)

Oh yeah...IIRC, that's where China did it better from a containment standpoint. Test positive and they quarantine you for two weeks in a facility away from your family. Not send you home and tell you to call when you can't breathe..and BTW try not to infect your family.

Of course that could never fly here for a hundred reasons.

With lockdown lifting, was able to get my car MOT’d today.

She failed. £840 later.....

Not Online!!! wrote:

 Kilkrazy wrote:
A proper track and trace system with a good app will be very useful when the pandemic after Covid-19 begins.

yes, allbeit i wonder , why wasn't that something not done allready?

I mean i get it that governments are slow to adopt such means but especially over here , mountain rescuing and weather apps have basically existed since the first Apps came out, meanwhile something like this which also can occure nothing thought to it?

There are some reports that have highlighted this is why S Korea, Taiwan, Singapore etc. have been so successful in controlling the virus.
They had a plan ready from SARS which has been kept on the boil, and that swung into action as soon as the threat of Covid became clear.

Contrast with the UK, which had carried out a threat assessment exercise a few years ago and has buried the report which recommended steps to allow the country to deal with a pandemic.

 gorgon wrote:

Seems to be getting clearer that factors that will put you most at risk include:
- indoors without superior ventilation
- close proximity to others
- extended period of time
- lots of gum-flapping without masks

If bars/pubs, restaurants, churches, and workplaces sound like a four-bagger COVID home run...you would be correct, and most superspreader incidents seem to have happened in those places.

There are some interesting stats in this report, based on a Japanese study, which pretty much lines up with what you have written above
https://www.ft.com/content/2418ff87-1d41-41b5-b638-38f5164a2e94

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
With lockdown lifting, was able to get my car MOT’d today.

She failed. £840 later.....

Ouch, my condolences.

And you’ve just reminded me that mine’s is overdue to. However, we in Northern Ireland had problems with the MOT centres even before the virus hit.

Got my annual bonus late June, so to be honest it’s the best time of year for such a bill!

And hey, at least I know she’s roadworthy! Main killer was the four new tyres, so next year should be considerably cheaper.

Flatmate reminded me as his needs doing next month. Agreed to waive his rent this month to help - and now he’s not doing it until next month. Words will be had about the rent!

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
With lockdown lifting, was able to get my car MOT’d today.

She failed. £840 later.....

ouchy even with gw prices thats many spacemans or a lot of good booze

still thinking saturday in the uk will be a display of really commited stupid

Going to play the pub by ear.

If it gets stupid, I’m offski!

Drove past my local on the way home today. Chairs and tables already out in the front yard, and a big sign declaring they are a "safe Pub" I hope they have adjusted the inside though as the bar is a fair way back. Could be worse though. There is a big ass spoons in the town center that has a beer garden smaller than my backyard.

Even if the country is reopening on Saturday I’m still waiting a week before I start properly venturing out. Better safe than sorry.

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
With lockdown lifting, was able to get my car MOT’d today.

She failed. £840 later.....

You got your car Mark of Tzeentch'd?

 Tannhauser42 wrote:

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
With lockdown lifting, was able to get my car MOT’d today.

She failed. £840 later.....

You got your car Mark of Tzeentch'd?

Magnetized Over Toast?
Massacred On Time?
Moored Off Taiwan?

Compulsory thing in the U.K. to ensure roadworthiness. Have to have it done annually.

Dunno if the USA has an equivalent.

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
Compulsory thing in the U.K. to ensure roadworthiness. Have to have it done annually.

Dunno if the USA has an equivalent.

It’s up to the individual states.

When I lived in Kentucky, just needed to have the exhaust tested make sure it was within some range of acceptable poison.
New York has a more comprehensive test, check the breaks, tires, lights, who knows what else. Make sure you aren’t going to explode on the highway, or swerve into a bus.

UK version would be closer to the New York then - its a test of road worthiness. Whilst we all complain about it (and mechanics whine about the lack of ability to fix modern parts and having to replace whole expensive chunks instead of fixing the 2 worn ball bearings inside etc....); it does at least help ensure a large majority of cars are road worthy and not total deathtraps.

Yeah it’s the Ministry Of Transport test, to make sure your car is legally road worthy. Brakes, emissions, lights etc. I usually have difficulties with mine on account of owning a 17 year old Alfa Romeo.

 Future War Cultist wrote:
Yeah it’s the Ministry Of Transport test, to make sure your car is legally road worthy. Brakes, emissions, lights etc. I usually have difficulties with mine on account of owning a 17 year old Alfa Romeo.

Better then Fiat.
Aka Fehler in allen teilen aka faults in all parts.

There are still cars on the road which most certainly haven’t had let alone passed an MOT in years!

I will be very (pleasantly) surprised if Saturday isn't utter madness. What I would say is more likely is the news being full of drunken louts singing arm in arm with pints in the air, and women bent over being sick outside the pubs.

I saw a tweet earlier from the Gov treasury with an animation of glasses clinking together and a reminder that pubs were re-opening (get out there and spend some money!) The comedian that does 'the room next door' (Michael Spicer) had replied drolly that today saw 170 deaths and over 800 new cases of infection.

As much as I would love to go to a pub or restaurant, see my friends and family, for all this to be over, it ain't happening until deaths are in single figures and infections not much higher than that. There is way to much of the virus out there still IMO for it to be worth the risk, although I understand that the sense of risk is subjective.

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
There are still cars on the road which most certainly haven’t had let alone passed an MOT in years!

They should get pulled. You can't get road tax without an MOT and the police are meant to scan plates (although I must admit I have forgotten before now and been driving around without one for a month so they obviously aren't too hot on it!)

What I can't understand is why MOTs for HGVs were suspended at the same time as cars. From what I saw they were the only things still on the road, and you have to think as a form of work MOT testing and vehicle mechanics are fairly isolated in their activities (especially as things like bike workshops were viewed as 'essential').

It's not just when deaths and infections are low; its when the number of active cases is also very low. Otherwise it might just be a small gap in the waves that makes the numbers look small. When you've a high number suffering (remembering that the actual number is much higher) then you've a higher chance of people moving around infected and unaware.

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
There are still cars on the road which most certainly haven’t had let alone passed an MOT in years!

The 40 year exemption is another strange thing whilst their number is low many 60/70s cars are solid metal bricks, plus locally proper old Land Rovers held together by mud and bloodymindedness are reasonabley common

My car's due for its MOT. Apparently there is an automatic 3-month extension, though, so it's not essential to go now. OTOH it's also due for the annual service.

So us broke 60k daily cases. They really want to be #1 in everything?

The 100k a day might not be that far off...

And we had now our second or 3rd case of a super carrier...

Great.

 Kilkrazy wrote:
My car's due for its MOT. Apparently there is an automatic 3-month extension, though, so it's not essential to go now. OTOH it's also due for the annual service.

Have the centres opened up again?

Oh wait, do you have your MOTs done by regular garages? I think I read somewhere that only us in Northern Ireland have dedicated test centres.

Also, allowed or not, I’ve talked myself out of taking any sort of holiday this year, no matter how cheap they might be going for. It’s still probably way too soon to risk travelling. I can’t see the others having much fun in Rome atm anyway.

There are garages which do MOTs, but not all garages do MOTs.

They need to be an accredited test centre, but can offer stuff beyond MOT.

For instance, I booked a full Service in immediately before the MOT, as it’s good practice, and it was the same place. Place also did all the repairs for me.

The only thing I’d say is Don’t Use Kwik- Fit. I may have seen the real Chitty Chitty Bang Bang at their Corstorphine branch back in the early- mid 80’s, but they’re rip off merchants.

Aye I'd say this year is a write off for travel holidays. Even if the area itself is safe the risk that you could spread the disease (picking it up on the way) is far too great. Plus 2 weeks lockdown isolation is starting to become the normal so chances are you'd need a lot of holiday time.


If the USA hits 400K case a day (as noted above) then that would beat the world highest of just under 200K cases a day. That's a staggering value.

Well the 2 week quarantee is being lifted between countries that have got it under control.

Edit: ugh. Graph looks even worse than i feared.

Good luck for us. Hopefully it starts to get better.

Japan keeps puzzling me with their crowds especially in trains. I was sure it would be hit hard and was worried of my friends there especially as many are older generation.

tneva82 wrote:
Well the 2 week quarantee is being lifted between countries that have got it under control.

Edit: ugh. Graph looks even worse than i feared.

Good luck for us. Hopefully it starts to get better.

Japan keeps puzzling me with their crowds especially in trains. I was sure it would be hit hard and was worried of my friends there especially as many are older generation.

I mean, pretty sure it was kinda trendy to wear a mask in Japan before this, so it was easy for people to adapt. They are the Expert Mode.

Meanwhile, MURICA IS #1!!!! We are Easy Mode. Nobody washes their hands and people cough in each others faces. Who wants a hug?!

Well yeah but seeing it doesn't protect you yourself and isn't quaranteed the difference is stark. Especially as due to constitution they didn't have true lockdown as they could not order anything, just ask. Luckily japanese are stickler for following rules and guidelines even if only they hurt(real case: minimum contract for room 1 month. You can't rent for 2 days less even if you pay full month. Because company rules say so....forced me to take unpaid vacation days)

Japan was also fast to get what outbreaks they did get under control early. Again being a nation of hyper dense populations and very close proximity to China and other major epidemic outbreaks in recent decades; means that their governent through to their population are far more experienced and prepared.

Even to the point where things like mask wearing are a normal expected part of daily life for them even outside of an epidemic in order to help reduce the spread of disease.


America's issue is one of multiple fronts and I'd say that a big part is basic political pressure and unrest that has been exacerbated through the duration of the Trump administration. though to debate that further I think pushes into politics a bit too much.


Suffice to say the data for the USA is very scary and the rate of increase is insane. Based on the graph alone one would have thought they'd be clamping down lockdowns nation wide like crazy. The lockdown clearly proved to work before, they clearly need it. Yet they are stalling in some states and even hitting issues with things like mask wearing. Then again the UK can't talk much on that as our government keeps having this very spotty reaction to things - mandating masks in trains and cabs and busses, but not in shopping centres, workplaces etc...

USA seems to have a spotty reaction from strict all the way to head in the sand "its not happening" whilst the UK seems to be erratic - clamping down in some areas and almost ignoring others.

 Overread wrote:
...the UK seems to be erratic - clamping down in some areas and almost ignoring others.

The "Whack a Mole" approach. Without going too political, it fits the easily digestible 3 word soundbite that this Govt favours, how effective it will be remains to be seen.

I can see local lock downs such as in Leicester harming the local static business' hard but am not convinced they will be effective in controlling the virus. There are too many variables and opportunities to get around the restrictions.
Plus our continued reliance on the common sense of the general public is just laugable. When a policy is centred around that, there is no policy.

uh huh.

Presumably if one lives in Leicester this behaviour is fine too ?

"He stressed his trip is ‘essential business’ to make his four-bed villa Covid-secure ahead of the holiday letting season." Oh well, when you put it like that..

Several of the pubs round my way are not opening this weekend, a few are doing sort of reduced hours

Expecting a lot of sirens on Saturday night either way.

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
There are garages which do MOTs, but not all garages do MOTs.

They need to be an accredited test centre, but can offer stuff beyond MOT.

For instance, I booked a full Service in immediately before the MOT, as it’s good practice, and it was the same place. Place also did all the repairs for me.

£840 seems...very high.

Tires can be expensive, sure, especially depending where you buy them, but, was your car in that bad a shape?

And here in Massachusetts, we were given a 3 month extension on our yearly Inspection sticker... my extra three months is up...now!

Off to the garage - hopefully the older car passes everything...

Eh, is what it is.

£250+ was just labour, and tyres were £60 each.

Rather be safe and out of pocket, than buttered up the motorway and sorry!

Car repairs are also high because often as not you can't get into components now to fix them. So that 1 loose ball bearing - instead of replacing it at a nominal cost and a few minutes labour; turns into over an hour labour and an entirely new component. Computer design allows for some really space saving designs, but the ethos is all wrong. They don't want you to repair your car easily, they'd instead rather you bought new top end components.

I believe the EU was pushing through some legislation to make this less of a case, esp with a lot of electronic units that require specific tools to open sealed plastic cases. Offering no additional protection against things like water damage, but purely to make it hard to impossible to actually repair unless you go through official repair shops etc...

Japan had a low initial number of cases. They stomped on the virus early with a strong voluntary lockdown.

They wear masks and rarely shake hands, bowing instead. Lastly, the Japanese are fanatics for personal and buildings cleanliness.

Also because they are used to wearing masks potentially their supply was also generally more geared up to support their population compared to some other nations where they went from basically only medical demand through to whole population demand almost overnight.

I suspect the same is also true of cleaning and sanitising products. In general many of the shortages other nations saw was due to a sudden rise in consumer demand. If your population already uses such measures in general, then the rise will be there, but it will be a bit less; plus it means that the back end of supply (ergo production and distribution) is already well established. At which point its more of a case of upscaling what is already there, whilst in many other nations it was creation of new jobs and work setups.

 Overread wrote:
Car repairs are also high because often as not you can't get into components now to fix them. So that 1 loose ball bearing - instead of replacing it at a nominal cost and a few minutes labour; turns into over an hour labour and an entirely new component. Computer design allows for some really space saving designs, but the ethos is all wrong. They don't want you to repair your car easily, they'd instead rather you bought new top end components.

I believe the EU was pushing through some legislation to make this less of a case, esp with a lot of electronic units that require specific tools to open sealed plastic cases. Offering no additional protection against things like water damage, but purely to make it hard to impossible to actually repair unless you go through official repair shops etc...

With my previous wheels, I was given an actual ‘eff off’ price by the garage to replace drop link pins.

Ended up sourcing the parts online, and swapping them out in my mate’s (The Omnisimon) dad’s garage.

Cost bugger all, but Kwik-Fit still claimed all four were worn.....hence my distaste for Kwik-Fit.

This time around I had the money and just couldn’t be bothered!

 Overread wrote:
Also because they are used to wearing masks potentially their supply was also generally more geared up to support their population compared to some other nations where they went from basically only medical demand through to whole population demand almost overnight.

I suspect the same is also true of cleaning and sanitising products. In general many of the shortages other nations saw was due to a sudden rise in consumer demand. If your population already uses such measures in general, then the rise will be there, but it will be a bit less; plus it means that the back end of supply (ergo production and distribution) is already well established. At which point its more of a case of upscaling what is already there, whilst in many other nations it was creation of new jobs and work setups.

Actually my friends noted masks ran out on shops there.

And with trains often being shoulder to shoulder to level where i'm literally carried along maintaining distance is hard. Which is why i was worried

Even when the components are readily available in the aftermarket, some manufactures do everything they can to make it difficult. Ever had to replace a headlight bulb through the wheel arch? Tis not fun. Worst I've seen needed the front bumper removing, we stopped offering bulb fitting after that

So australia seems to have gotten new spike. Wasn't situation at control before?

GoatboyBeta wrote:
Even when the components are readily available in the aftermarket, some manufactures do everything they can to make it difficult. Ever had to replace a headlight bulb through the wheel arch? Tis not fun. Worst I've seen needed the front bumper removing, we stopped offering bulb fitting after that

My manufacturer expects me to lift the headlight unit out to change mine, which means removing the front bumper! It can be done the traditional way, but that still needs the air box taking out and the assistance of a small boy or a delicate handed lady.

Doh. Australia cases are suspected to have started by guards of quaranteed people havinj sex with the quaranteed people(having come from outside australia).

Doh. Well good to know lack of common sense is trait that is still strong

The car repair anecdotes are interesting, but this is the Coronavirus thread.

Maybe make a different thread for car repair horror stories.

The only way I see car maintenance costs relating to covid is if it was about being beter to take a private car during quarantine than to use public transport.

I mean one of Europe's strong points is a better, safer, cleaner public transport system than america has, and i commend them for it. But in the covid time, cars might be safer. I suppose some care requirements could be briefly loosened to keep people from being forced to use public transit for now.

I know people in london love their double decker buses, and i've seen them on Dr. Who, but today they might as well call them "mobile plague distribution centers". BTW I assume they've been parked during the recent months,right? Right?

That’s a valid point. I’ve not stepped on a bus or train since February, but this Saturday I’m riding the train. Will be masked and gloved up to the eye balls. I could, and probably should, take the car but the town I’m heading to has terrible parking and terrible drivers. Plus the station is across the street from where I’m going.

Incidentally, this is to rejoin my gaming club and play AoS again. Last time we meet was...gak, January. The guys are taking all sorts of precautions so hopefully it’ll be safe. We’ve not had any new cases here in what seems like weeks so maybe we’re safe for the time being. Not looking forward to winter though...

So trump backpedalling on masks saying he will use them in tight spot and claims he has been seen with it in public(when?). Though still like a fool he believes it will just magically dissapear. Texas putting face mask requirement. They are getting nervous .

And over 50k cases in a day. Pace keeps increasing and 4th is tomorrow. So much for "warm summer will kill it off like other flu's". Pace just has increased in summer.

If masks makes Trump look like the Lone Ranger, he's going it wrong.
I want pictures!

More like bank robber

You know what else is a Lone Ranger? I’ll give you all a clue; it rhymes with banker.

At least he’s being honest with himself for once in his gakky life.

 Future War Cultist wrote:
That’s a valid point. I’ve not stepped on a bus or train since February, but this Saturday I’m riding the train. Will be masked and gloved up to the eye balls. I could, and probably should, take the car but the town I’m heading to has terrible parking and terrible drivers. Plus the station is across the street from where I’m going.

Incidentally, this is to rejoin my gaming club and play AoS again. Last time we meet was...gak, January. The guys are taking all sorts of precautions so hopefully it’ll be safe. We’ve not had any new cases here in what seems like weeks so maybe we’re safe for the time being. Not looking forward to winter though...

Got the bus for the first time in nearly a year yesterday to pick up my car.

It’s not a massively long walk, but I only had my lunch hour and it’s all uphill!

Wore my face mask, paid contactless. Reduced the risk as far as I could as an individual. Happy to say my fellow passengers similarly behaved themselves. Also used hand sanitiser at the garage when picking up my key.

 Matt Swain wrote:
The only way I see car maintenance costs relating to covid is if it was about being beter to take a private car during quarantine than to use public transport.

I mean one of Europe's strong points is a better, safer, cleaner public transport system than america has, and i commend them for it. But in the covid time, cars might be safer. I suppose some care requirements could be briefly loosened to keep people from being forced to use public transit for now.

I know people in london love their double decker buses, and i've seen them on Dr. Who, but today they might as well call them "mobile plague distribution centers". BTW I assume they've been parked during the recent months,right? Right?

Best covid19 transport, is the motorbike.

I haven't set foot in a bus since OUP shut its doors in mid-March. They are still running, with very few people on them.

I had to drive into Oxford for work a couple of days, early in the shutdown. It was so quiet on the roads, and I was able to park in the OUP premises.

Traffic has noticeably increased in the past few weeks, though.

Been pondering something....

I am a RN...traveling RN specifically.

Working in primarily critical access hospitals (25 beds or less).

As it stands now, every patient admitted to our "floor" gets either a COVID screen (48-72 hr turn around) or if suspected/meets criteria, a rule-out test (24hr turn around).

So if you are admitted for an appendicitis, you are tested. If you have been admitted for a fall...you get tested.

I am all for testing everyone we can.

However.....

The place I am now has a good amount of Skilled Nursing patients come in and go out. These are typically elderly people that (usually) need some kind of physical occupational therapy before returning home.

Maybe...half?...are sent to nursing homes.

Before they go to a nursing home, though, the homes (at least in Iowa) require a negative COVID test within 72 hours.

Now here is where it gets....weird...

Patient Bob lives in a nursing home.
Bob falls and injures himself.

Bob goes to the ER, and gets screened for COVID (72hr results).

3 days go by, and Bov isn't doing well enough to go back to the nursing home...so he stays an extra 4 days.

By day 7, Bob is ready to go back. But the nursing home needs him tested again.

As he isn't suspected, he gets another screening test (72hr). He comes back clean and goes back.

Now....imagine this not uncommon scenario happening dozens and dozens of times a day.

Would this not skew the numbers in an....improper?...way?

When I hear that Iowa has performed 830,000 tests so far....I have to wonder how many of those tests were repeat tests on the same person within just a few days of each other.

At one hospital I was at....they tested a patient *every day* for nearly a week to see when he would test negative to be able to go home.

Just gets me wondering about the veracity of the testing information/statistics.

As I have said though....I am all for testing everyone we can.

 Kilkrazy wrote:
I haven't set foot in a bus since OUP shut its doors in mid-March. They are still running, with very few people on them.

I had to drive into Oxford for work a couple of days, early in the shutdown. It was so quiet on the roads, and I was able to park in the OUP premises.

Traffic has noticeably increased in the past few weeks, though.

Were safe in Oxfordshire. The council has padlocked up all the children's swings.

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:

 Future War Cultist wrote:
That’s a valid point. I’ve not stepped on a bus or train since February, but this Saturday I’m riding the train. Will be masked and gloved up to the eye balls. I could, and probably should, take the car but the town I’m heading to has terrible parking and terrible drivers. Plus the station is across the street from where I’m going.

Incidentally, this is to rejoin my gaming club and play AoS again. Last time we meet was...gak, January. The guys are taking all sorts of precautions so hopefully it’ll be safe. We’ve not had any new cases here in what seems like weeks so maybe we’re safe for the time being. Not looking forward to winter though...

Got the bus for the first time in nearly a year yesterday to pick up my car.

It’s not a massively long walk, but I only had my lunch hour and it’s all uphill!

Wore my face mask, paid contactless. Reduced the risk as far as I could as an individual. Happy to say my fellow passengers similarly behaved themselves. Also used hand sanitiser at the garage when picking up my key.

Lucky that you still have bus services.

I'm between jobs, I was before this pandemic hit. I don't drive, probably cannot due to health issues even if I could afford to learn. And I'm reliant on public transport because of those health issues. As of June 30th the unemployed who were shielding are being told to look for work again. That includes me.

However...


...the bus services round my way have been slashed to one an hour and don't exist before 08:00.

It takes 90 minutes, and 2 different operators bus services, on a good "normal" day to get to the nearest town/city where all the work is likely to be. More like 2 hours now looking at the timetables. I can forget even an 09:30 start.

It's not like I can work from home either, even though I'm an office worker by "trade/profession", where I live is not my home, and is not setup for working from home - nor can I afford to make it so.

No employer is even going to give me the time of day - especially when there's 5000+ unemployed people in the area all after the same tiny amount of work!

I haven't been contacted yet by the Job Centre, but I really don't want to have a conversation with them because I know the person I will end up talking to will be like certain people in this thread. They're all right...


The govt. haven't got a clue, all they're worried about is making money on their investments and allowing their relatives to swan off to Greece via other countries!!

 TheMeanDM wrote:
Been pondering something....

I am a RN

RN is some kind of nurse?

Rob Lee wrote:

...
It's not like I can work from home either, even though I'm an office worker by "trade/profession", where I live is not my home, and is not setup for working from home - nor can I afford to make it so.
...

When you say you're not set up for working from home, what do you think you need?

Personally, I've been working from home every other week since lockdown started. I have my work laptop, and my work headset for making Skype calls - and that's it.

If I need peace and quiet, I'll take my laptop off to my painting desk. But generally (and right now in fact) I just sit in the living room on the sofa, with the laptop perched on the arm rest.

 Skinnereal wrote:

 TheMeanDM wrote:
Been pondering something....

I am a RN

RN is some kind of nurse?

Registered Nurse

Crispy78 wrote:

Rob Lee wrote:

...
It's not like I can work from home either, even though I'm an office worker by "trade/profession", where I live is not my home, and is not setup for working from home - nor can I afford to make it so.
...

When you say you're not set up for working from home, what do you think you need?

Personally, I've been working from home every other week since lockdown started. I have my work laptop, and my work headset for making Skype calls - and that's it.

If I need peace and quiet, I'll take my laptop off to my painting desk. But generally (and right now in fact) I just sit in the living room on the sofa, with the laptop perched on the arm rest.

Webcam. Headset. Somewhere to actually work from other than my bedroom where my 5 year old PC that probably needs replacing/upgrading is. Not to mention a reliable phone line.

Like I said, I can't afford all that. I don't have a laptop, or other useful for work mobile device, and even if I did I can't just sit on the sofa, it's not my house and there are other people in the household to consider. I can't, for example, sit on the sofa and answer the phone because other members of the household are watching TV. The house I live in is not at all suited to being a professional environment where one can work.

That's beside the point though.

The point is people are being expected to return to, and resume looking for, work, in many cases/areas without the means to enable them to do so properly.

Fine if you drive, you're all right. Feels to me like the rest of us, outside of London and the other big cities, can just go do one as far as the govt. and various individuals are concerned.

And we're not even properly out of the pandemic yet either! And yet people like me are supposedly no longer at high risk! Yeah right...

I've not once, in 20 years of employment, had a job where I've had to provide my own IT equipment. My current employers have, in extreme cases, even provided office furniture and mobile broadband to workers struggling to work from home.

Good for you.

I have worked for employers where I've had to provide my own IT equipment, even though I worked at their premises, and especially as I was expected to work out of hours. Several of them.

But again, that isn't really the point.

Putting aside the fact that I'm an office worker when I'm employed, there are plenty of people who aren't in my line of work, but still rely on buses to get to work. How are they to do that when bus services early morning don't exist?

The govt. certainly aren't doing anything to make that situation any more workable and it's the govt. who have put us in this situation! The focus is on people who can drive to/from work. Never mind the rest of us.

We can't all work from home, and with furlough ending there's going to be even more unemployment - just hope all of those newly unemployed people are car drivers, for their sake.

But hey - at least I can enjoy a local game of cricket from July 11th. Gotta get the priorities right...

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/cricket/53276717

well apparently enough bars were planning to open at 1min past midnight on Saturday and were booked up for a solid 24 hours of frantic drinking the government has had to say bars should only open at 6pm

but it's all going to be fine, all those folk who got drunk and got into fights in city centres every weekend before covid are totally going to be responsible now, and the bar staff that didn't cut them off before before they got fighting drunk are going to cut them off even earlier now before they start getting close to folk

poor NHS

Might be an idea to slip a few extra packs of toilet roll in the shopping cart this week. Just in case

This is on FB today.

https://flic.kr/p/2jhPnBk

Some will say it's a troll, it's made to mock stupid people. But the thing is in america today, a lot of people will take it as true. We've reached a point where satire is indistinguishable from reality.

Just going to leave this here - https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-53221435

https://coronavirus.data.gov.uk/#category=nations&map=case
UK removes 30k cases from its total due to duplication

I've enrolled in a government programme to be tested for the virus every week for a month, then possibly every month for a year.

The nurse will come to my house at my convenience.

The best thing is, I get paid £50 for the first test and £25 for each of the follow-ups.

These will be swab tests for current infection. I might also have the blood test for anti-bodies.

As the washington post just put it:

In America the corona virus isn't under control, it's in control.

Yeah the virus is calling the shots over there.

 Kilkrazy wrote:
I've enrolled in a government programme to be tested for the virus every week for a month, then possibly every month for a year.

The nurse will come to my house at my convenience.

The best thing is, I get paid £50 for the first test and £25 for each of the follow-ups.

These will be swab tests for current infection. I might also have the blood test for anti-bodies.

Sounds interesting. Is this for vaccine research?

I think it's just part of general tracking of infection rates in the population as a whole.

I have some colleagues who are in the vaccine research programme. IDK if they are paid for it.

Well, if it helps keep it under control then kudos.

I don’t know about the rest of you but I’m felling very paranoid atm. Even though cases are almost non existent here I’m still on edge about either catching it or potentially spreading it. With my job it’s not always possible to wash your hands consistently.

A building I work at sometimes was shut down for deep-cleaning , following an infected visitor.
My place sent an announcement out, failing to tell us:
A. When the visit happened,
B. Who to contact to find out more.
I was there a couple of weeks ago, and they announced it last week.

So, living fairly near Liecester (with colleagues who live there), and in the borough of another likely 2nd lockdown, it's not good here.

 r_squared wrote:

 Matt Swain wrote:
The only way I see car maintenance costs relating to covid is if it was about being beter to take a private car during quarantine than to use public transport.

I mean one of Europe's strong points is a better, safer, cleaner public transport system than america has, and i commend them for it. But in the covid time, cars might be safer. I suppose some care requirements could be briefly loosened to keep people from being forced to use public transit for now.

I know people in london love their double decker buses, and i've seen them on Dr. Who, but today they might as well call them "mobile plague distribution centers". BTW I assume they've been parked during the recent months,right? Right?

Best covid19 transport, is the motorbike.

Agree 100%. Other than the number of kids in Seat FRs that think they are Lewis Hamilton and can exit roundabouts at 70mph.

I've been off two wheels for a few years now but am going to get another one, the odd trip to the office (although that's not likely to be until next year) and built for isolation!

The place I work has announced they will keep the main office closed until 1st September, and monitor developments during August to see if/how they can re-open later in the year.

 Future War Cultist wrote:
Well, if it helps keep it under control then kudos.

I don’t know about the rest of you but I’m felling very paranoid atm. Even though cases are almost non existent here I’m still on edge about either catching it or potentially spreading it. With my job it’s not always possible to wash your hands consistently.

Just got to do what we can as individuals to limit the risks.

I’ve got washable face masks, two of which are still in their packaging. I’ve got a small bottle of hand sanitiser which I carry around when I’m out and about.

I’m still coughing into the crook of my arm, and ensuring that I’m social distancing as far as practicable (really effing difficult when some arse blocks a supermarket lane with their trolley, forcing people to go round).

And I’m playing all outside interaction by ear. Overall for Kent the R number is less than one - and my town in particular has the lowest infection rate in Kent. But even with pub back on the menu, I’m being sensible. If it’s heaving, I’m off. Even if it’s quiet, and others aren’t behaving themselves, I’m off.

We went to the pub for lunch yesterday. Our local has done really well. Only doing pre-booked table service, including taking customer details for contact tracing and an app for ordering from outside tables. One way flow of traffic through the inside. Reduced number of tables inside and out, including a couple of isolated wooden pod booths outside, and perspex screens separating tables inside. All staff wearing masks. We were happy enough that they'd taken every precaution!

Yeah. Personally I would be prepared to eat out in that kind of situation, but the rest of the my family arequite paranoid. Also, my parents and some of our closest friends are immun-compromised, so it's not really very sociable.

 Kilkrazy wrote:
I've enrolled in a government programme to be tested for the virus every week for a month, then possibly every month for a year.

The nurse will come to my house at my convenience.

The best thing is, I get paid £50 for the first test and £25 for each of the follow-ups.

These will be swab tests for current infection. I might also have the blood test for anti-bodies.

You get paid to take the test? Like, totally the opposite of America. That sounds like a good deal to me. You're getting the peace of mind with the testing and getting paid to have that peace of mind. Double win in my books.

One thing I am curious about: In your country does freedom of speech cover making clearly false and harmful statements that encourage dangerous and harmful behavior like not wearing masks and claiming covid is just a flu?

I never thought i'd say this but I'm beginning to think we have a little too much free speech in america...

It depends on who you are.

Edit. No longer care.

 Matt Swain wrote:
One thing I am curious about: In your country does freedom of speech cover making clearly false and harmful statements that encourage dangerous and harmful behavior like not wearing masks and claiming covid is just a flu?

I never thought i'd say this but I'm beginning to think we have a little too much free speech in america...

I definitely think what constitutes healthcare advice (which can be regulated) should be expanded a bit.

It might also help cut into the lucrative "supplements" market too.

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-53309424

The story initially implied the people attacked the driver because he wouldn't let them on without masks. In the story it added they had no tickets and tried to bring a dog aboard. I don't know if this was headline slanted to make anti maskers look bad or not but it kinda looks that way.

Those are quote marks in the headline.
The BBC is funded by the British State, and one of it's main mandates is to be unbiased. If it ever gets caught being "slanted" in any of it's reporting, the government (who would love to de-fund the BBC on account of such terrible things as occasionally holding them to account, and sometimes reporting news that isn't always pro-government, because it's based in reality) gets very irate indeed, and does it's best to reprimand everyone responsible and threaten to slash their budget. As such, it's a pretty okay source of news.

Who knew, anti-maskers, who repeatedly cling to woefully outdated government guidelines drafted when supplies of masks couldn't be guaranteed (at an affordable price for said governments), who willfully discard scientific advice and substitute it with their own personal conspiracies and deliberately endanger themselves, their loved ones and strangers on the offchance that they could be proven might also, on occasion, be utterly vile human beings in other tragic ways?

Violent mask-related incidents have been on the rise everywhere. In Korea there's been such a spike in (mostly crotchety 50+ men vs bus drivers) violence that they've coined a new word to describe when wearing a mask in hot weather gets stuffy and uncomfortable and makes you stroppy and irrational.

Being a reported news story, the BBC has re-used what information they were given. There is no reporter listed, so it is a re-report from elsewhere.
The masks part of the headline is probably because the dog and tickets parts are not newsworthy. The masks part is current, and what they expect people to look for.

 posermcbogus wrote:
Those are quote marks in the headline.
The BBC is funded by the British State, and one of it's main mandates is to be unbiased.

Well. That's the theory anyway

Interestingly, every UK government in the past 40 years has complained of BBC bias against them, while media analysis of the coverage has revealed a slight pro-government stance.

 posermcbogus wrote:
Those are quote marks in the headline.
The BBC is funded by the British State, and one of it's main mandates is to be unbiased. If it ever gets caught being "slanted" in any of it's reporting, the government (who would love to de-fund the BBC on account of such terrible things as occasionally holding them to account, and sometimes reporting news that isn't always pro-government, because it's based in reality) gets very irate indeed, and does it's best to reprimand everyone responsible and threaten to slash their budget. As such, it's a pretty okay source of news.

It is always economically centre-right, for the last twenty years or so has been socially centre-left, and it has always been biased towards the government, whichever colour it is. BBC News'quality of reporting is dreadful as of late, reproducing ministers' advisors verbatim as factual news, for instance, and it leans heavily towards commentary rather than reporting in all of its flagship politics coverage. It's a source of moderate quality on UK events - and a terrible one for international events. The BBC World Service is excellent, however.

It's what we get following huge funding cuts.
I always trust the tone of the news from the BBC though. If they list a source, there's always another way to get the story.

President Bolsanaro of Brazil has tested positive for Coronavirus.

 Kilkrazy wrote:
President Bolsanaro of Brazil has tested positive for Coronavirus.

on the level of facepalms, this one is ironic.

 Kilkrazy wrote:
President Bolsanaro of Brazil has tested positive for Coronavirus.

Probably inevitable considering his cavalier behaviour.

Bugger.. quite a high death count again today in the UK (155)

Was very low yesterday and hoping that would set the scene for <100 per day going forwards.

Kilkrazy wrote:President Bolsanaro of Brazil has tested positive for Coronavirus.

There is only one other person that could get it now and who would be an even bigger example of cosmic karma trying to re-address an imbalance..

But you can be absolutely sure that that person is protecting his own ass above all other things.

 posermcbogus wrote:

Violent mask-related incidents have been on the rise everywhere. In Korea there's been such a spike in (mostly crotchety 50+ men vs bus drivers) violence that they've coined a new word to describe when wearing a mask in hot weather gets stuffy and uncomfortable and makes you stroppy and irrational.

That's interesting, do you know what the term is?

I love that Korea has terms like that for everything. There is one as well (I forget what) which is for perverted blokes in mac-type coats that like exposing themselves to young women and then running away. Things are so group and uniform orientated in Korea that even sex-pests have a proscribed uniform that they have to adhere to..

Horseshoe crab blood is key to making a COVID-19 vaccine—but the ecosystem may suffer.

wellll I had no idea we were/are so dependent upon crabs currently.

Bolsonaro didn’t look too healthy to begin with tbh.

death and taxes

Employees are to pay additional tax for workplace COVID-19 testing
COVID-19 testing will be treated as a 'Benefits In Kind' by the tax office.

Health and social care workers could face a large tax bill.
New guidance from HM Revenue and Customs (HMRC) could see frontline health and social care workers pay additional tax for COVID-19 testing.

According to the new guidance, COVID-19 testing undertaken at the expense of an employer is to be treated as a “benefit in kind”, so will be subject to extra income tax for employees.

The guidance states; “Coronavirus (Covid-19) testing kits or tests carried out by a third party which have been purchased by you to provide to your employees are treated as a taxable benefit in kind on the employee.”

Treasury Committee Chairman Mel Stride has warned that for some employees, like health and social care workers, who require regular testing the tax bill could quickly mount up.

“Many employees, especially healthcare and hospitality workers, are required to undergo regular coronavirus testing,” said Mr Stride.

He said the new guidance from HMRC “is unclear and will worry a large number of workers”.

“Many of our key workers could be faced with the perverse incentive of avoiding employer-sponsored tests in order to reduce their tax bill,” he added.

According to the Citizens Advice Beaureu, Benefits in kind are benefits which employees or directors receive from their employment but which are not included in their salary cheque or wages – like a company car or mobile phone.

When questioned on the guidance earlier today, Chancellor Rishi Sunak said he will look into the issue “very quickly”.

farcical.

 Matt Swain wrote:
One thing I am curious about: In your country does freedom of speech cover making clearly false and harmful statements that encourage dangerous and harmful behavior like not wearing masks and claiming covid is just a flu?

I never thought i'd say this but I'm beginning to think we have a little too much free speech in america...

No. One can go on national television and make up outrageous lies, brand them as truth, and repeat them with no consequences. I'm not being sarcastic, that really is how things are here.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 reds8n wrote:


death and taxes

Employees are to pay additional tax for workplace COVID-19 testing
COVID-19 testing will be treated as a 'Benefits In Kind' by the tax office.

Health and social care workers could face a large tax bill.
New guidance from HM Revenue and Customs (HMRC) could see frontline health and social care workers pay additional tax for COVID-19 testing.

According to the new guidance, COVID-19 testing undertaken at the expense of an employer is to be treated as a “benefit in kind”, so will be subject to extra income tax for employees.

The guidance states; “Coronavirus (Covid-19) testing kits or tests carried out by a third party which have been purchased by you to provide to your employees are treated as a taxable benefit in kind on the employee.”

Treasury Committee Chairman Mel Stride has warned that for some employees, like health and social care workers, who require regular testing the tax bill could quickly mount up.

“Many employees, especially healthcare and hospitality workers, are required to undergo regular coronavirus testing,” said Mr Stride.

He said the new guidance from HMRC “is unclear and will worry a large number of workers”.

“Many of our key workers could be faced with the perverse incentive of avoiding employer-sponsored tests in order to reduce their tax bill,” he added.

According to the Citizens Advice Beaureu, Benefits in kind are benefits which employees or directors receive from their employment but which are not included in their salary cheque or wages – like a company car or mobile phone.

When questioned on the guidance earlier today, Chancellor Rishi Sunak said he will look into the issue “very quickly”.

farcical.

Hopefully that will be reversed sooner rather than later. Stupidest timeline indeed.

 ScarletRose wrote:


I definitely think what constitutes healthcare advice (which can be regulated) should be expanded a bit.

It might also help cut into the lucrative "supplements" market too.

Not to mention at least curtail homeopathy as well as other such quackery, and preferably outright end it.

Not Online!!! wrote:

 Kilkrazy wrote:
President Bolsanaro of Brazil has tested positive for Coronavirus.

on the level of facepalms, this one is ironic.

Karmic, more than ironic. He's made a lot of hay about how trivial the disease is. Just yesterday he was insisting he didn't have it because he played a lot of sports as a young man and was therefor resistant.

I can’t believe how often I get called a leftist these days on account of the pandemic. It’s very weird.

Bolsonaro will probably survive this but considering his age and stuff it’ll likely knock him one for six at least.

Editted for a forgotten word.

 Pacific wrote:


But you can be absolutely sure that that person is protecting his own ass above all other things.

Oh yes. He's got big anti corona precautions. Which is rather ironic.

 Future War Cultist wrote:
I can’t believe how often I get a leftist these days on account of the pandemic. It’s very weird.

I thought I was fairly up on UK-speak but I don't know what that means...

just out of curiosity does anybody know the cost for tests in the UK ?

hopefully itll get fixed soon, and it very much strikes me as a wholly, nessersary and exclusively (think thats still the term) work related expense you could claim back, as im sure most of the tax refund firms are hoping for, if only we didnt have needlessy clunky tax system (little bit of politics...)

 Future War Cultist wrote:
I can’t believe how often I get a leftist these days on account of the pandemic. It’s very weird.

Bolsonaro will probably survive this but considering his age and stuff it’ll likely knock him one for six at least.

Are you missing a word, or is this another Briticism we need explained?

 Alpharius wrote:

 Future War Cultist wrote:
I can’t believe how often I get a leftist these days on account of the pandemic. It’s very weird.

I thought I was fairly up on UK-speak but I don't know what that means...

Leftist. Lefty. Left leaning. Left winger.

EDIT: oh wait I see now.

I meant, how often I get called a leftist.

We got the word. The phrase you wrote it into makes less sense.

 reds8n wrote:


death and taxes

Employees are to pay additional tax for workplace COVID-19 testing
COVID-19 testing will be treated as a 'Benefits In Kind' by the tax office.

Health and social care workers could face a large tax bill.
New guidance from HM Revenue and Customs (HMRC) could see frontline health and social care workers pay additional tax for COVID-19 testing.

According to the new guidance, COVID-19 testing undertaken at the expense of an employer is to be treated as a “benefit in kind”, so will be subject to extra income tax for employees.

The guidance states; “Coronavirus (Covid-19) testing kits or tests carried out by a third party which have been purchased by you to provide to your employees are treated as a taxable benefit in kind on the employee.”

Treasury Committee Chairman Mel Stride has warned that for some employees, like health and social care workers, who require regular testing the tax bill could quickly mount up.

“Many employees, especially healthcare and hospitality workers, are required to undergo regular coronavirus testing,” said Mr Stride.

He said the new guidance from HMRC “is unclear and will worry a large number of workers”.

“Many of our key workers could be faced with the perverse incentive of avoiding employer-sponsored tests in order to reduce their tax bill,” he added.

According to the Citizens Advice Beaureu, Benefits in kind are benefits which employees or directors receive from their employment but which are not included in their salary cheque or wages – like a company car or mobile phone.

When questioned on the guidance earlier today, Chancellor Rishi Sunak said he will look into the issue “very quickly”.

farcical.

that is insane (and on the wages of an NHS nurse let alone a cleaner or care home worker is going to be really damaging

they'd better adjust it (and back date the adjustment) sharpish

 Alpharius wrote:

 Future War Cultist wrote:
I can’t believe how often I get a leftist these days on account of the pandemic. It’s very weird.

I thought I was fairly up on UK-speak but I don't know what that means...

I suspect its a dig at how much like pondside 3rd party medical firms operate on frankly comical mark ups such as charging daft amounts for stuff, which the person doing the test wont see any of, and as ever the expense is landed on those at the low end, but expressing doubt in the fairness of such things will get you labelled as a pinko guardian reading softie if that strays into no-no re politics please delete

 Turnip Jedi wrote:
just out of curiosity does anybody know the cost for tests in the UK ?

hopefully itll get fixed soon, and it very much strikes me as a wholly, nessersary and exclusively (think thats still the term) work related expense you could claim back, as im sure most of the tax refund firms are hoping for, if only we didnt have needlessy clunky tax system (little bit of politics...)

My sympathies to the UK crowd. That seems to be a messed up line of thinking by the tax man. From my prespective, not a benefit per se, but a requirement for work to meet to HSE requirements. In the US, already considered sales tax exempt and tax deductible for buisensses.

As for cost, I can share antedotal evidence of what the retail cost is in the US

PCR - $154 - $300 (My company typically pays $225)
Antigen - $165 - $250
Rapid Anitbody - $65

BUPA charges £65

https://www.bupa.co.uk/health/payg/covid-testing

 Future War Cultist wrote:

 Alpharius wrote:

 Future War Cultist wrote:
I can’t believe how often I get a leftist these days on account of the pandemic. It’s very weird.

I thought I was fairly up on UK-speak but I don't know what that means...

Leftist. Lefty. Left leaning. Left winger.

EDIT: oh wait I see now.

I meant, how often I get called a leftist.

HA, welcome to the internet and polarised society:
You accordingly (to some) talk to a conservative fascitoid anarchist with socialist tendencies....

Probably half the persons calling you any of that have jack idea about what the respecitve doctrine encompasses, and even less what the ideology actually means. Not to mention basic discussion manners.

I personally blame social media...

Apologies. It’s been a very long day with little food.

And here I am thinking a leftie was a left-handed-person.

That's kind of ghoulish, and sad, and untlmately stupid.

If we kill off the crabs, we won't be able to purify vaccines, as well as destroying other parts of the ecosystem.

 Kilkrazy wrote:
That's kind of ghoulish, and sad, and untlmately stupid.

If we kill off the crabs, we won't be able to purify vaccines, as well as destroying other parts of the ecosystem.

he, maybee that cloning tech comes in handy now?

 Kilkrazy wrote:
That's kind of ghoulish, and sad, and untlmately stupid.

If we kill off the crabs, we won't be able to purify vaccines, as well as destroying other parts of the ecosystem.

You mean horseshoe crabs? I've heard they can be useful for making some vaccines.

It's estimated the HSC has survived more or less in its current form for some 350 million years. It survived thru the time of the dinosaurs and survived the dinosaur killer asteroid strike. It would be a testament to human nature if we killed off the HSC after it survived all that for so long...

Trivia: The 'rattle" sound the predator makes in the movies is based on the sound of a HSC.

Just like bugs I'm willing to accept that Crustaceans are important from an ecological stand point. But damn they freak me out, the HSC in particular always gives me the hibijibis. That picture is some serious nightmare fuel to me.

So us broke 60k daily case record. And trump still worried about november goes nuts over harvard doing courses via net due to virus.

Things are going to get worse before they get better.

Here in the UK, both Oxford and Cambridge unversities sent students home in March, and have decided to do teaching by remote next year.

If I was a potential oxbridge student I would be seriously considering whether I still wanted to attend. especially considering both of their behaviour as of late, and as far as I'm aware, they aren't dropping fees to reflect the online only curriculum.

 queen_annes_revenge wrote:
If I was a potential oxbridge student I would be seriously considering whether I still wanted to attend. especially considering both of their behaviour as of late

I'm guessing this is a veiled form of the same political swipe that happens here in the US when it comes to complaining about higher education, but can someone from the UK confirm?

oxford have removed books like 'the great gatsby' from their curriculum due to their 'content'. You'll have to research cambridge yourself as its not suitable for here.

this is not how the countries premier higher education establishment is supposed to act, so unless I was planning to study maths or science, I would be reconsidering whether it was worth it.

but this is already off topic for this thread so...

Ah so the usual anti-university stuff then. I guess things aren't so different across the pond.

Thanks for clarifying.

Yup, but that's not a valid counter argument by the way...

 ScarletRose wrote:

 queen_annes_revenge wrote:
If I was a potential oxbridge student I would be seriously considering whether I still wanted to attend. especially considering both of their behaviour as of late

I'm guessing this is a veiled form of the same political swipe that happens here in the US when it comes to complaining about higher education, but can someone from the UK confirm?

I suspect regardless of political stance that paying the same fee for a much reduced service isnt that enticing, especially as both those places hike the fees based on being a premium brand on a level the even gw would be impressed by

Excactly why did the great Gatsby get banned?

Also :

„Das war ein Vorspiel nur, dort wo man Bücher verbrennt, verbrennt man auch am Ende Menschen.“

Heinrich Heine.

I suspect for the usual mistake of being a book nearly a century old not conforming to current virtue standards

but back OT seems the past weekend has reignited the numbers in the shire prior to which we were doing relatively well

If anything universities will have to invest more money in new infrastructure to maintain distance teaching rather than rely on what they've already got. Plus building maintenance and such still has to take place even when they aren't being used for a one year period for students - you can bet researchers and such are still going to be using the facilities. Especially in the sciences where you can't just take the machines home for the weekend.


So I can see valid justification for why fees won't go down. Plus they will be losing out on a huge amount of cash from the university students living costs. Indeed I suspect both towns will see some people who run rental services for students losing a LOT of money (esp considering many will squeeze as many students as they can into a house and charge each one a full rent). I foresee many having issues paying mortgage's on their small rental empires.


So I suspect the universities won't be as flush with cash as people think. Sure they won't have to clean the toilets as often, but they've got to have investment into better distance learning resources; staff might have to remake huge segments of their courses to reflect distance learning practice etc...

A friend of mine is in academia - senior lecturer at a major university. He reckons a big university is going to go under sooner or later.

tneva82 wrote:
So us broke 60k daily case record. And trump still worried about november goes nuts over harvard doing courses via net due to virus.

tneva82 - I keep getting confused by your flag!

I have a friend in Finland who reports almost no cases and things starting to open up again (but just about the ongoing issue with Sweden and people coming over the border..)

60k cases a day in a country with only 5 million people would be horrible to imagine..

He means the USA.

Meanwhile in Belfast

http://www.irishnews.com/paywall/tsb/irishnews/irishnews/irishnews//news/2020/07/08/news/queen-s-university-charters-jet-to-bring-chinese-students-direct-to-belfast-1998220/content.html

Universities have become corporations masquerading as educational establishments. This prime example shows how corporations will always prioritise greed over public health.

 queen_annes_revenge wrote:
oxford have removed books like 'the great gatsby' from their curriculum due to their 'content'. You'll have to research cambridge yourself as its not suitable for here.

this is not how the countries premier higher education establishment is supposed to act, so unless I was planning to study maths or science, I would be reconsidering whether it was worth it.

but this is already off topic for this thread so...

Source for this? Google brings up nothing.

Google brings up nothing because it's categorically untrue.

It is also off topic.

Attempts to get the thread closed perhaps?

 queen_annes_revenge wrote:
If I was a potential oxbridge student I would be seriously considering whether I still wanted to attend. especially considering both of their behaviour as of late, and as far as I'm aware, they aren't dropping fees to reflect the online only curriculum.

They don't have an online only curriculum. Cambridge has moved to online only lectures for 2020-21 due to covid. Lectures are a minority of Oxbridge teaching. The overwhelming majority of their teaching is done in supervisions - usually two students and an academic, sometimes even one-to-one, almost never more than five - and they're going ahead as normal because they're easy to accommodate. To my knowledge Oxford hasn't done even that.

Oxford University Press publishes a version of The Great Gatsby. I'm not aware of a reason why it would be removed from the university curriculum. I read it when I was 14 or something anyway. It's a good book.

 Kilkrazy wrote:
Oxford University Press publishes a version of The Great Gatsby. I'm not aware of a reason why it would be removed from the university curriculum. I read it when I was 14 or something anyway. It's a good book.

its the near annual 'story' of various stripes of attention seeking cockwombles wanting 'problematic' texts removed from reading lists or study, which the gutter media duly report as something that matters (and never report the follow up of the establishment rejecting such demands)

Well, the Great Gatsby does have a some pretty racist and eugenics related discussions by one of the wealthy elite. However, I think that it is important to keep this element to the book as it makes said character look even worse when lined up with his action. I wish I could recall which character it is, but some of it even makes it into the Robert Redford movie.

Now, related to Covid- My rural community is starting to learn what an R Value is as COVID has finally rolled into town. Despite that, our local community has adopted the Mayor from Jaws approach to the issue. Cases have been steadily going up. However, the new surge is among younger people so the death rate has stayed pretty steady.

Masks are completely optional and a political litmus test here. Information like "it is no worse than the Flu", and "masks are useless", and if you are "Young everything will be fine" continues to be the standard wisdom. I even hear, "Do you know anyone who has had it? It is overblown" on occasion.

Is it the same in other rural parts of your country out there?

My corner of the Shire, semi-rural southwest UK has just hit a week with 0 hospital virus related recorded deaths, but cases have picked up following the first week of being allowed out to play, but generally folks are being quite mindful with masks being fairly common place and screens and hand sanitser in all the shops i use

The other issue is the local economy is somewhat reliant on tourism so an influx of unwitting carriers might spoil our luck especially as we are approaching the peak period of the school holidays (mid july - early sept)

Personally ive most likely over-worried on behalf of my 89 year old dad who is somewhat 'set in his ways' and doesnt quite get it, on the upside the weather has been crappy and cold so he hasnt ventured out

If we're taking this too far, by all means let a mod step in, but in the meantime, I find I actually agree with QAR in this.
Universities should not be in the business of self-censorship to avoid insulting anyone, their whole point is to increase humanity's knowledge base and foster discussion and independent, critical thought by letting both sides have their say.

Edit: should have read the rest. If this is not an actual thing that happened, then I worried over nothing, although I stand by my point.

 A Town Called Malus wrote:

 queen_annes_revenge wrote:
oxford have removed books like 'the great gatsby' from their curriculum due to their 'content'. You'll have to research cambridge yourself as its not suitable for here.

this is not how the countries premier higher education establishment is supposed to act, so unless I was planning to study maths or science, I would be reconsidering whether it was worth it.

but this is already off topic for this thread so...

Source for this? Google brings up nothing.

Looks like I was wrong. It was around April time I recall reading it, but I can only find something from Alaska now. Fair enough. I'll hold my hands up.

Google 'oxford book ban' which brings up a story from early May that might be the one youre thinking

Well, here's to hoping the C19 test being taken by the maintenance guy I just delivered a bunch of stuff to this morning comes back soon, and negative......I got back from some other deliveries today and my company notified me he called them to say he might have been exposed yesterday, and he found out after I was delivering to him.

Hopefully I distanced enough from him, but we'll see. I really hope he is negative, as he was ALSO walking around the home store of my business yesterday, too, with no mask or anything on. My company doesn't even make customers wear masks in the store, so even if I managed to distance from him, if he got any of the rest of the company sick, I'll probably still end up getting it from them.

Even after hearing this, my company still has a "Meh, whatever. We'll all get it eventually, so why stress over it. If he gave it to us looks like we're all screwed" mentality.

We're kicking the gak out of covid up here in Canada. Ontario is nearly down to double digit increases per day, and yesterday we had zero deaths from the virus. I mean no offense to our American neighbors but I'm sincerely hoping we don't reopen the border any time soon, as we seem to have a much better handle on it than you guys. Really hoping things turn around soon for you!

Michigan 8s also quite low at the moment, but obviously still around, if today is any indication.

Bran Dawri wrote:
If we're taking this too far, by all means let a mod step in, but in the meantime, I find I actually agree with QAR in this.
Universities should not be in the business of self-censorship to avoid insulting anyone, their whole point is to increase humanity's knowledge base and foster discussion and independent, critical thought by letting both sides have their say.

That is absolutely and categorically untrue. Universities are not obliged to spend energy debunking Flat Earthers, for instance. There is no inherent value in discourse, it is a means to an end (as you noted yourself, greater understanding); if someone is acting in a manner contrary to the purpose of the discourse existing in the first place, the University is morally obliged to tell that person to get bent. I'm not saying this to take a stance pro or anti The Great Gatsby, just as an abstract argument about the nature of Universities.

Free speech is, as was humorously alluded to earlier on the page, not an end in and of itself. Every society on Earth limits speech to some extent, through legislation on fraud, perjury, and slander. This fetishization of free speech as some sacrosanct God-given right is ridiculous. It's perfectly possible to argue against limitations on free speech without assuming that it is an absolute right (which it blatantly isn't).

It is still off topic.

Sorry, won't continue.

At any rate, I'm hoping the Swedish situation will lead to a deeper study of the way our elderly care is structured. IIRC both state-run and private care providers have been hit roughly equally hard, so the question is why so many people in elderly care have been infected.

Not sure if it's making news with the state of the world at large but here in AUS we had an outbreak in Melbourne, with 9 or so public housing buildings being put into pretty much total lockdown. The gov is getting a lot of flak for how poorly run the action was, some people claiming racial discrimination as well.

Oh, and the state, Victoria, has had it's borders closed from the rest of Australia.

I finally met someone a few days ago who has had the virus and since recovered. She said it really sucks and she had to be on a respirator for a few days. Literally the first person I've met who had it. My town is also enacting a mandatory mask-wearing order starting Friday, which is gonna suck but if it helps I suppose it's for the best. I'm personally not convinced it's going to help. To use an analogy, it's like pouring a bucket of water on the pile of burnt ashes that used to be your house. Too little too late.

I'm honestly very concerned that things are going to get pretty nightmarish in the US soon. I think a second lockdown is definitely in the cards, and my earlier prediction of 500,000 deaths in the US may not be an exaggeration. That would be almost as many people dying as there were soldiers that died on BOTH sides in the US Civil War. I don't want to get political or anything, but I think the whole thing has been mishandled at all levels of government (from the President on down). Not sure another administration could or would have done better though, as this is a pretty unprecedented situation and even the WHO has backpedaled on recommendations and stuff. Yes, there have been pandemics in the past, but not with the level of both international and local travel options we have now, so the spread was more limited back then, so the dynamics are somewhat different (to say nothing about this being a completely different disease).

Here's hoping the medical scientists can come up with a cure or a vaccine soon so we can all get back to our lives (and no one else has to lose theirs to this stupid virus).

 Easy E wrote:
Well, the Great Gatsby does have a some pretty racist and eugenics related discussions by one of the wealthy elite. However, I think that it is important to keep this element to the book as it makes said character look even worse when lined up with his action. I wish I could recall which character it is, but some of it even makes it into the Robert Redford movie.

Now, related to Covid- My rural community is starting to learn what an R Value is as COVID has finally rolled into town. Despite that, our local community has adopted the Mayor from Jaws approach to the issue. Cases have been steadily going up. However, the new surge is among younger people so the death rate has stayed pretty steady.

Masks are completely optional and a political litmus test here. Information like "it is no worse than the Flu", and "masks are useless", and if you are "Young everything will be fine" continues to be the standard wisdom. I even hear, "Do you know anyone who has had it? It is overblown" on occasion.

Is it the same in other rural parts of your country out there?

My corner of rural America is odd. We've had few cases in the county, and while they've been slowly going up, they've been going up at a rate of single digits a week in most weeks. However, its now the height of the usual tourist season here and now that things are 'open' people are coming out. I rarely go anywhere, and most often when I do its to turn the car engine over and drop something off in the post box outside the post office (so I interact with no one), and the number of people out and about is fairly normal (which is too busy for my tastes given everything). My retiree parents had a doctor's appointment today, and the hospital is taking precautions, even in the little external clinics that handle regular patient visits. Information is taken outside, and then you're taken to a examination room to wait, where you stay until you're done. No waiting areas anymore, and no interaction with non-doctors/nurses. So that's good, but it isn't the norm. Stores are requiring masks, but people are chaffing.

Unfortunately, the general protests that are also going on have reached us. An Antifa threat over July 4th and flag burnings had counter-protesters show up (but no antifa), and the counter-protesters were well and openly armed, and social distancing and masks was not in their bag (luckily there were no incidents this year- two years back a similar event had some idiot shoot himself in the thigh with his holstered pistol). So this weekend, BLM is staging a counter-counter protest in the traffic circle in the center of town this weekend, while the local Harley Davidson dealership is hosting an anniversary event, which will inevitably draw a lot of the armed counter-protesters back. [Particularly since Bike Week is usually happening this week anyway, for all that its 'officially' cancelled]

So I expect a big Corona virus spike from multiple large gatherings, and possible outbreaks of more immediate violence. Luckily we're several miles outside of town and on the far side of town from the dealership, so no immediate threats here, but between the protests, counter protests, virus and several weeks of absurdly hot weather (good days aren't quite 100 degrees F, just high 90s), I'm expecting bad, bad things to happen with the virus and otherwise.

Coronavirus: Why hand-washing and distancing might be 'insufficient' - and herd immunity now looks 'unachievable'

"The novel coronavirus which has so far claimed at least 540,000 lives worldwide is now said to be able to linger in the air for hours after infected people have left. ...

The WHO’s technical lead for infection prevention and control, Benedetta Allegranzi, finally conceded yesterday that the organisation cannot rule out evidence emerging of airborne transmission in “crowded, closed, poorly ventilated settings”. Just days before, she had downplayed the possibility, insisting it was “certainly not supported by solid or even clear evidence”. The change in tone follows an open letter penned by Lidia Morawska, a expert in aerosol science at Queensland University of Technology, and signed by 239 other scientists.They wrote that “hand-washing and social distancing are appropriate, but, in our view, insufficient to provide protection from virus-carrying respiratory microdroplets released into the air by infected people”. Researchers accused the WHO of being “slow and risk-averse in updating its guidance” and allowing “a few conservative voices to shout down dissent” because it could mean more expensive and disruptive control measures.

All this comes after further doubt was shed on the possibility of herd immunity earlier this week by an updated Lancet study showing that just five per cent of Spain’s population has developed antibodies, despite having one of the world’s highest death tolls. Given that seroprevalence of at least 60% would be required, it was concluded that “herd immunity through natural infection is not only highly unethical, but also unachievable”. It is unclear what degree of protection antibodies actually offer anyway, as the study – the largest in Europe to date – also found that over the course of eight weeks, 14% of participants who had initially tested positive for antibodies had no trace of them by the end. That is not to say they are not immune – they could have cellular immunity instead – but it is another of the virus’ conundrums.

Meanwhile, increasing evidence is also emerging about the long-term consequences of infection with Covid-19. Studies have found high rates of lung scarring – even those who had mild symptoms – and of blood clots leading to strokes, heart attacks, lung embolisms, and limb amputations. Abnormal blood clotting has even been reported in patients who appear to have recovered. Neuropsychiatric complications have also emerged, with a study of 125 hospital patients in the UK finding that 39 patients suffered an altered mental state, including encephalitis (an inflammation of the brain which can cause confusion and mobility problems); 10 had a newly diagnosed psychosis; and six had dementia-like symptoms such as short-term memory deterioration. Half of those who experienced altered mental status were younger than 60."

https://www.heraldscotland.com/news/18569865.coronavirus-hand-washing-distancing-might-insufficient---herd-immunity-now-looks-unachievable/

 ZergSmasher wrote:
I finally met someone a few days ago who has had the virus and since recovered. She said it really sucks and she had to be on a respirator for a few days. Literally the first person I've met who had it.

It can be hard to meet people who've had it; some take social distancing way too seriously and put six feet of earth between themselves and others in order to maintain it!

Yeah I know I got an extra minute in hell for that one...

Well herd immunity without vaccine was always fantasy.

And in Tulsa where trump held rally 2 weeks ago corona cases have started to grow up in numbers. Surprise surprise

And good example of how interconnected economies are. Sweden didn't put any restrictions in place to protect their economy yet aren"tt doing much better with economy shrinking and unemployment growing. Doesn't help much if you don't put in restrictions when countries around do. Imports/exports/tourism will take a dent anyway

I thought airborne transmission was always on the cards, to be honest. I mean I didn't think it had ever been ruled out.

Soo like
In my area, its close to time for schools to open up. With each district deciding itself
This in, one of the counties that the govenor has put on a watch list, with my town regularly getin 100+ new cases a day.
Why is it so hard for people to understand to Stay Inside? That opening things up and getting flow through, will make things worse.
Kids can learn from the computer, this entire summer i have been teaching kids as young as 3 on the computer.
Keep the kids home, let them learn off the computer. Create safe and effective ways for communities without internet to access their work.
STAY INSIDE PEOPLE!!!!

I always thought airborne was the primary way of getting it, along with surface contact like touching elevator buttons. Right now i'm wishing I didn't live in LA as this seems to be the worst place to be right now. This place was bad enough before a pandemic, with all the traffic and ridiculous cost of living.

The worry is that if airborne particles are a factor, barriers like perspex screens between tables are not 100% effective.

I mean, nothing is 100% effective, of course, but if current anti-virus protection is based on the idea that there is no airborne transmission, then obviously there could be a problem.

 hotsauceman1 wrote:
Kids can learn from the computer, this entire summer i have been teaching kids as young as 3 on the computer.
Keep the kids home, let them learn off the computer. Create safe and effective ways for communities without internet to access their work.
STAY INSIDE PEOPLE!!!!

There are a huge numbers of kids in the UK without internet access on a computer. The news is reporting that lots are working off a phone, or sharing that phone around 6 kids.
People only now look to be donating old computers for them to access from, but the process of wiping them and getting a basic operating system onto them it taking a lot of work.

Yes, that was on the BBC yesterday.

There was a good article in the newspaper about the difficulties of working from home and schooling at home with two primary age children.

South Korea distributed 350,000 devices to poor families back in April. They've also got 100% high-speed synchronous broadband.

Most of the UK is on low-speed asynchronous broadband, which isn't much good for working and learning at home.

In terms of remote working, it’s all but confirmed I’ll never have to revisit the office unless there’s specific training or a meeting I need to attend.

I’ve got to tell you, this is mega for me. Like, seriously mega. Better work life balance. Less money spent on my commute, which in turn I can spend locally. More gaming time (after 8 years, I need it). The positive impact on the old mental health cannot be underestimated.

Hell, I can even do long weekends visiting my Dad without burning annual leave!


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also booked in for a haircut....25 July 2020 at 6am. So I’ll be greeting 9th Ed without split ends! Hopefully.

First cut in around two years. Down past my shoulders now, so can afford to lose a wee bit of length for sake of tidiness.

 Thargrim wrote:
I always thought airborne was the primary way of getting it, along with surface contact like touching elevator buttons. Right now i'm wishing I didn't live in LA as this seems to be the worst place to be right now. This place was bad enough before a pandemic, with all the traffic and ridiculous cost of living.

Yeah, I've been a bit confused by the "it's airborne" news too. From the descriptions I've been seeing of it, it's no different to what they were warning against previously as far as how an infected person could spread the virus indoors. The BBC even used exactly the same graphic they used months ago to explain the spread indoors.

It's basically the difference between virus particles briefly hanging in the air contained within droplets of mucus / saliva, which only hang in the air for a little while before settling; and aerosol transmission where tiny droplets evaporate before they hit the ground, leaving particles that can float freely around in the air for half an hour or so.

tneva82 wrote:
Well herd immunity without vaccine was always fantasy.

And in Tulsa where trump held rally 2 weeks ago corona cases have started to grow up in numbers. Surprise surprise

And good example of how interconnected economies are. Sweden didn't put any restrictions in place to protect their economy yet aren"tt doing much better with economy shrinking and unemployment growing. Doesn't help much if you don't put in restrictions when countries around do. Imports/exports/tourism will take a dent anyway

It's odd that trump's events are leading to surges in covid while the massive open air blm protests seem not to be. This really should be looked into. I have no easy explanation.


I think we'll eventually see covid lead to mobile personal quarantine and isolation devices people can buy and use to go out without risking covid. Probably something like this:


And yes, I'm kinda mocking covid. People may say it's disrespectful of it's victims. After being afraid of something long enough some people get fear fatigue and just feel a desire to mock it. I'm one.

Well, the BLM March I was on comprised maybe a couple of thousand people (not bad for a small town) - the vast majority of whom were wearing PPE.

Efforts were made to ensure Social Distancing, and it was entirely outside. So there weren’t exactly surfaces to get sneezed or coughed on that someone else would then come into contact with.

I’m not aware of a resulting local uptick in infection rates, as my town still has the lowest in our County.

Basically, my anecdotal evidence is that when people take it seriously, and take whatever precautions they can? It works.

 Matt Swain wrote:
It's odd that trump's events are leading to surges in covid while the massive open air blm protests seem not to be. This really should be looked into. I have no easy explanation.

Average age of attendees are going to be radically different. Ideological differences probablyMake people at protests more likely to take PPE more seriously, again on average. Probably quite a lot of Trump rally attendees, in some states, anyway, who've spent lives in occupations that might be detrimental to their respiratory systems, too?

EDIT: that said, the wider social context may have far more to do with it. Have most of Trump's rallies been in the states that have most heavily relaxed social distancing? Are their outbreaks confidently attributed to the rallies themselves?

tneva82 wrote:
Well herd immunity without vaccine was always fantasy.

And in Tulsa where trump held rally 2 weeks ago corona cases have started to grow up in numbers. Surprise surprise

And good example of how interconnected economies are. Sweden didn't put any restrictions in place to protect their economy yet aren"tt doing much better with economy shrinking and unemployment growing. Doesn't help much if you don't put in restrictions when countries around do. Imports/exports/tourism will take a dent anyway

A .3% decrease in GDP in the first quarter (Sweden) is quite significantly better than a .9% loss in GDP (Finland) or 2.1% (Denmark) in the same period.

https://www.focus-economics.com/countries/denmark/news/gdp/economy-contracts-in-q1-worse-to-come-in-q2

https://www.focus-economics.com/countries/finland/news/gdp/economy-records-sharpest-contraction-since-q1-2015

https://www.focus-economics.com/countries/sweden/news/gdp/preliminary-data-shows-economy-contracted-in-q1-2020

I'm not sure that dressing as either Ant or Dec is going to be of much hel....

...oohhhhh

Well there were those few Darleks doing the rounds telling people to self isolate. If we built enough of them yes we could create a future where we all live within our own armoured shell! With a custom iGrabber on one side and an iPlunger on the other (since I would assume that guns/lasers/whiskspray guns would be reserved fro the miliary/police)

Slipspace wrote:

 Thargrim wrote:
I always thought airborne was the primary way of getting it, along with surface contact like touching elevator buttons. Right now i'm wishing I didn't live in LA as this seems to be the worst place to be right now. This place was bad enough before a pandemic, with all the traffic and ridiculous cost of living.

Yeah, I've been a bit confused by the "it's airborne" news too. From the descriptions I've been seeing of it, it's no different to what they were warning against previously as far as how an infected person could spread the virus indoors. The BBC even used exactly the same graphic they used months ago to explain the spread indoors.

Airborne vs droplets. Airborne is worse. Way worse.

Voss wrote:


Unfortunately, the general protests that are also going on have reached us. An Antifa threat over July 4th and flag burnings had counter-protesters show up (but no antifa), and the counter-protesters were well and openly armed, and social distancing and masks was not in their bag (luckily there were no incidents this year- two years back a similar event had some idiot shoot himself in the thigh with his holstered pistol). So this weekend, BLM is staging a counter-counter protest in the traffic circle in the center of town this weekend, while the local Harley Davidson dealership is hosting an anniversary event, which will inevitably draw a lot of the armed counter-protesters back. [Particularly since Bike Week is usually happening this week anyway, for all that its 'officially' cancelled]

We had a similar situation in our own little town. A BLM and pro-Trump/2A rally at the same time and place in our little town square. It turned out fine, and the virus didn't even seem to kick up because of it.

The big spreader was at a local tourist attraction instead. That is where we had a local outbreak that really ramped up the spread within our community.

Wearing an Ant or Dec mask might be a good idea.



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I can imagine a future in which we all wear battery powered helmets which filter the air we breathe.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Quite the opportunity for Dyson!

Yeah Dyson should be all over that. They need something now that they abandoned their car project...shame that.

Crispy78 wrote:
It's basically the difference between virus particles briefly hanging in the air contained within droplets of mucus / saliva, which only hang in the air for a little while before settling; and aerosol transmission where tiny droplets evaporate before they hit the ground, leaving particles that can float freely around in the air for half an hour or so.

Yeah, that.

With direct contact, you at least can see who's nearby, so you can avoid them. With aerosol, if you don't know who's been where you are for the last whatever amount of time, you risk infection, although risk is higher in a closed environment.

So, suppose you're a teacher teaching inside a building that hasn't been retrofitted for ventilation (and most schools haven't, because this costs money). Another staff member or even a teenager (teens have been found to carry virus loads the same as adults and have higher rates of infection than children but less than adults) is infected and has been in that area (say, a restroom). They leave, you don't know that they've been there, you use the same space. Congrats. You've just exposed yourself to the virus and risk infection.

In the USA, restaurants opening up around here have open air seating. But pubs and clubs (and gyms, stores, etc.) are still indoors, and, besides the inability to maintain the six feet distance (which, iirc, was based on studies of similar viruses, not CoVid itself), you now may be exposed to aerosol droplets that the last guy had at the table you just found a seat at.

It's fairly obvious that if the virus particles are contained in small droplets of saliva and mucus ejected by coughing, they will also be contained in microscopic particles ejected through normal breathing. Every breath you exhale contains moisture.

 Kilkrazy wrote:
It's fairly obvious that if the virus particles are contained in small droplets of saliva and mucus ejected by coughing, they will also be contained in microscopic particles ejected through normal breathing. Every breath you exhale contains moisture.

Not that obvious. You can have droplet spread without aerosol. So far evidence points toward no aerosol more than yes but not conclusive.

One big evidence against is it not spreading that much especially in hospitals. Were it spread by aerosol spream should be lot bigger

It is really a debate of where the line on particle size which can carry the virus is drawn.

The other day I saw Richard Quest (who had coronavirus) on CNN asking an expert if the lingering symptoms he’s suffering from are permanent. She said that atm they just couldn’t say, and you could see the crushing disappointment in his eyes. I actually felt for him I really did.

Has anyone here had it, and if so how are you feeling now?

One big evidence against is it not spreading that much especially in hospitals. Were it spread by aerosol spream should be lot bigger

IIRC, 40% of the original Wuhan virus infections were through hospitals. And the virus has been found on doorknobs and even floor surfaces of wards with infectious patients.

However, that was quite awhile ago, so I was curious what's the latest on hospital infections through hospitals. Found these articles.

****

Coronavirus Can Spread Through a Hospital in 10 Hours, Study Finds

"The study published in the Journal of Hospital Infection last month examined how quickly a virus strain spreads in hospital settings amid precautions taken to regularly sterilize surfaces and use personal protective equipment. .. After researchers put the virus on the rail of a hospital bed at London's Great Ormond Street Hospital in a room designed for patients infected with COVID-19 and other contagious illnesses, they said the virus spread to 41 percent of all sampled locations within the ward after 10 hours, and to 59 percent of all sampled locations within three days."

https://www.msn.com/en-in/news/in-depth/coronavirus-can-spread-through-a-hospital-in-10-hours-study-finds/ar-BB15gmaB

This was a surface-based transmission, not aerosol, though. Still, suggests that even hospital-levels of safety can't be assumed to be entirely safe.

*****

Coronavirus UK: 20 per cent of virus cases spread through hospitals : Research has shown 20 per cent of the UK’s COVID-19 patients got the virus while in hospital for unrelated illnesses.

"Up to a fifth of COVID-19 patients in the UK’s hospitals contracted the disease while already being treated there for an unrelated illness, National Health Service (NHS) bosses have revealed. ... Patients with coronavirus, and hospital staff were unaware they had the virus and displaying no symptoms, were responsible for the infections. ... Recent research among staff in north England hospitals run by a leading NHS trust also found that 7 per cent of staff had coronavirus but were showing no symptoms, posing a risk to patients."

https://www.news.com.au/world/coronavirus/global/coronavirus-uk-20-per-cent-of-virus-cases-spread-through-hospitals/news-story/dff32ea31ab8d5ddf8c6a7914e460073

I guess 20% is better than 40%. No mention of aerosol transmission. If anyone can find more articles, please post.

 Future War Cultist wrote:
The other day I saw Richard Quest (who had coronavirus) on CNN asking an expert if the lingering symptoms he’s suffering from are permanent. She said that atm they just couldn’t say, and you could see the crushing disappointment in his eyes. I actually felt for him I really did.

Something like long term lung damage where you can't get enough breath and might be out of breath even just doing basic things like walking to the end of the road are life changing conditions. They not only impact your health, they specifically prevent you taking part in many normal activities. Stopping you from doing things you once loved and also preventing you doing new things that you wanted to do. Those are the kind of things that can take a very long time to come to terms with and you might never. They can also lead to other health problems very quickly like weight issues.

One can hope to recover or that new medical advances might aid recovery, right now its very hard to say how people will recover in the medium to long term and its got to be crushing to think that one little sickness, one thing that you got for a few days is going to suddenly lead to sucha dramatic negative change in your life.

Well, accodring to the article before, lung damage and blood clotting, so doubly fethed if you got genetical issues with your blood for long term.