Every codex has one or two stinkers. Maybe they used to be a viable option and either changes in edition or tacticshave made them all but useless. Undoubtedly every Ork post or thread will make mention of my two nominees: the cool, but broken Flash Gitz and the beautifully inconsistent kommandos. While kommandos were once a good option, their current state keeps them on the bench and the poor Flash Gitz don't get any love since the 5th edition. So, what are your worst units?

Take your pick:

CSM Possessed. Expensive, overcosted and not very useful on the board.

CSM Warp Talons. Expensive, overcosted, have special rules that don't really matter, only useful in very specific situations.

CSM Thousand Sons. Expensive, overcosted, weird mechanics around the sorcerer, unable to upgrade to heavy weapons. Hard time building an army that fits the fluff.

CSM Mutilators. Expensive, overcosted, too much emphasis on the changing weapons.

CSM Lucius. Duelists have no place in a shooting edition.

CSM Berzerkers. After round one of combat, they are just plain space marines.

CSM Rhinos. Can be glanced to death by bolters.

C:SM Assault centurions - slow, overcosted, low damage output
IG Stormtroopers - can be used only as suicide melta squads, too expensive to field in 10-man units, their super lasguns are only S3
IG Sentinels - fragile, low damage output, waste of FA slot
IG Hellhounds/Banewolfs/Devil dogs - too expensive, too fragile

Flayed ones: Never really were outstanding, now even less so
Triarch Praetorians: They're just....expensive and do bugger all.
Dark Angels: Most new units. Specifically the Nephilim and the plasma based land speeder. Just disappointing.

 techsoldaten wrote:
Take your pick:

CSM Possessed. Expensive, overcosted and not very useful on the board.

CSM Warp Talons. Expensive, overcosted, have special rules that don't really matter, only useful in very specific situations.

CSM Thousand Sons. Expensive, overcosted, weird mechanics around the sorcerer, unable to upgrade to heavy weapons. Hard time building an army that fits the fluff.

CSM Mutilators. Expensive, overcosted, too much emphasis on the changing weapons.

CSM Lucius. Duelists have no place in a shooting edition.

CSM Berzerkers. After round one of combat, they are just plain space marines.

CSM Rhinos. Can be glanced to death by bolters.

Dang bro. You got a lot of options

IG:

Rough Riders: No assault when they come in reserve

Ogryn: Over cost, 6th nerf to Furious Charge hurt

Penal Legion Squad: Only redeeming quality, they have stuborn. No upgrades available.

Easily the worst units in the IG:

Nork Deddog: Overpriced by a few dozen points, meant to add durability to one of the flimsiest squads in the game and does that job poorly at best.

Techpriests: Cost too much, servitors cost too much and the weapons options for those servitors are ludicrously overpriced.

Anything that isn't a vet , chimera , LR , manticore , vendetta , comissar , cmd squad or blob squad . Everything else costs too much, has no resilience or there are other units that do the same things for cheaper . The IG codex does not have good internal balance .

 Avatrass wrote:

IG Stormtroopers - can be used only as suicide melta squads, too expensive to field in 10-man units, their super lasguns are only S3
IG Sentinels - fragile, low damage output, waste of FA slot
IG Hellhounds/Banewolfs/Devil dogs - too expensive, too fragile

Ahem...seriously? Worst in IG codex? All are playable and fun to play. OK, Banewolf and Devildog are very situational and harder to set up, but if you want worst units in IG codex, its Rough Riders. Even if you make room, spend enough points and repeat "its for fun, its for fun", they still get slaughtered by squad of drunken blind grots.

They don't even have models , banewolfs and storm troopers on the other hands do , some even find them nice . That does make the ST and Banewolf a lot worse .

The fact that GW can steal a SW walker and make it bad , also speaks volumes .

As Makumba said, internal balance in IG codex is terrible. Units divide between must have and total trash. You can try to use some weaker units, and even make them work, but it's only merit of your skill/luck. The fact that some of the worst units in IG codex have really good models makes them even worse, because you'd like to see more of them, but the rules are so crappy that noboty wants to use them.

I play two armies so...
Banshees and pyrovores
Just, just no don't even think about including them

Repentia for the Sororitas, Flayed Ones for the Necrons, Cyclops for the Elysians.

Not gonna bother listing the entire CSM codex.

Pyrovores. Hoping it will change, but not holding out on it...

Makumba wrote:
They don't even have models , banewolfs and storm troopers on the other hands do

Admitedly, GW don't sell them anymore judging by the online shop, but just proving they do have models.

Dark Angels - Dark Talon. Followed quickly by the Nephilim. Both fliers are completely garbage and overpriced for what they'll achieve. The sad thing is with a minor tweak or two, the Nephilim would be salvageable. The Dark Talon is a lost cause. Shame - it's a neat looking model.


Tau - Personally while i like the theme, i have no use for drones outside of crisis suit squads or the built in ones on vehicles / sniper squads. I know, i know, there's ways to make them good. It's just that they are pricey to begin with, and require other ancillary stuff on top to be made good.

Both fliers are jank too.


Grey Knights - The champion HQ with the sword stances is all kinds of terrible. I can see what they went for, but man, it fell short of the mark something fierce.

That's the only real and true "stinker" that jumps out at me.

If i had to pick another one .... point costs ? It's an expensive ass codex.

BA: Death Comany w/ Jump Packs. They are almost the price of terminators and the can never be scoring.

ORK: Flash gitz.
SM: Techmarine (simply due the pointcost for a 1wound model)

Daemons: The Burning Chariot of Tzeentch.

Why: Both its shooting options are Heavy type weapons, but they're used by the Exalted Flamer who's counted as riding an open-topped transport, meaning that if you move you can never fire your weapons!
On a vehicle that's about as survivable as a Dark Eldar Ravager, but with the range of a flame template.


It really seems as if the Exalted Flamer was meant to have the Relentless rule, but somehow it was forgotten during the editing phase of things.

DA: LSV. 140pts for a crappy model that can easily kill its itself.

Rough Riders: Need I say more?

 techsoldaten wrote:
Take your pick:

CSM Possessed. Expensive, overcosted and not very useful on the board.

CSM Warp Talons. Expensive, overcosted, have special rules that don't really matter, only useful in very specific situations.

CSM Thousand Sons. Expensive, overcosted, weird mechanics around the sorcerer, unable to upgrade to heavy weapons. Hard time building an army that fits the fluff.

CSM Mutilators. Expensive, overcosted, too much emphasis on the changing weapons.

CSM Lucius. Duelists have no place in a shooting edition.

CSM Berzerkers. After round one of combat, they are just plain space marines.

CSM Rhinos. Can be glanced to death by bolters.

I'd like to throw in

Dark Apostle: Outclassed, expensive for what he does, and generally his effects are poor.

Ahriman: Costs nearly a Land Raider, no effective rules except his warlord trait, and he can spam 'witchfire' spells, which are the worst kind of spells and worst of all he doesn't reroll spells in any fashion so he'll often kill himself by miscasting.

Defiler: Too expensive, Too Schizophrenic in what he does and he's nearly 200+ points of AV12.

Burning chariot-you will never fire it
Nurglings-why would you take them? They do [Mod Edit - Please don't try to get around the expletive filter - thanks. - Alpharius] all
Flamers-unless you take loads your making enemy units more durable and next to never killing them
Furies-have [Mod Edit - Please don't try to get around the expletive filter - thanks. - Alpharius] combat ability and when they lose a combat they die to instability.

Necrons: none.

Eldar:
- Swooping Hawks are too fragile.
- Falcons are mediocre transports/tanks.
- Harlequins and Banshees since they are hard to pull off.
- Iyanden Craftworld is heavily overpriced.

 wuestenfux wrote:
Necrons: none.

Eldar: Swooping Hawks, Falcons, Harlequins. Iyanden Craftworld is heavily overpriced.

You consider flayed ones good?

 Haight wrote:
Dark Angels - Dark Talon. Followed quickly by the Nephilim. Both fliers are completely garbage and overpriced for what they'll achieve. The sad thing is with a minor tweak or two, the Nephilim would be salvageable. The Dark Talon is a lost cause. Shame - it's a neat looking model.

Don't forget the dreaded Land Speeder Vengeance ..... . Like the Nephilim, it is probably a couple tweaks away from being salvageable. Even then though, lots of points for 2HPs, low armour, and a big gun. Just to help the survivability issues it would have to be partnered with the Darkshroud (which has better things it can be escorting).

Avatrass wrote:
IG Stormtroopers - can be used only as suicide melta squads, too expensive to field in 10-man units, their super lasguns are only S3
IG Sentinels - fragile, low damage output, waste of FA slot
IG Hellhounds/Banewolfs/Devil dogs - too expensive, too fragile

I have to disagree with this. While maybe not the most effective option, and would benefit from a points drop, Stormtroopers have a great deal of utility. With meltas, they can be precision AT units, with flamers they can drop in and burn hordes. Never underestimate the ability to allocate wounds from behind, if someone's left the sergeant or special weapons at the back thinking they'll be safe, stormtroopers can fix that. Used en masse, Stormtroopers can do a great job of opening a second front wherever you want them, taking a lot of heat off your advancing troops and countering IG's mobility issues. They are also effective when used as part of a carapace hore with 50+ grenadier vets and 30 stormtroopers.

Sentinels of both varieties can also be useful. While outclassed by the Vendetta, in most games 2 vendettas will be enough. Armoured Sentinels can provide some more AV12 in a mech list, or some more durable heavy weapons for a foot list. Scout Sentinels can get outflanking lascannons or autocannons, which, when hitting side armour, can do a lot of damage. I'm not going to say they are as good as a Vendetta, but that doesn't relegate them to uselessness.

Hellhounds are also a great asset. Direct comparison to the Vendetta in this case is a fallacy, as the two perform entirely different roles. The ability to throw a high-S AP4 template out to 12" can be very effective at clearing infantry, especially in metas where tau/crons/eldar are prominent. The Bane Wolf suffers from short range, and the Devil Dog provides AT better found elsewhere, but the Hellhound itself is far from ineffective.

martin74 wrote:IG:

Rough Riders: No assault when they come in reserve

Ogryn: Over cost, 6th nerf to Furious Charge hurt

Penal Legion Squad: Only redeeming quality, they have stuborn. No upgrades available.

I agree about the Rough Riders, the lack of assault from reserves does relegate them from a counter-charge unit (although with that ability they would be very good with a high threat range).

Similarly, Penal Legion have very few merits, 8 ppm for a Guardsmen with no upgrades is far to expensive. At 60 points a squad, I'd take a squad or two in most games, but 80 is too much.

Ogryn, however, are good. Yes, the change to FC hurt, but they still have a great deal of durability, something the rest of the infantry options lack, and at short range throw around a lot of S5 firepower. They couple well with a Primaris Psyker rolling on Biomancy, who at worst adds some more high-S attacks and at best gets them Endurance for FNP and IWND. They have good force concentration, something also lacking in other areas of the codex, and are a good option, especially in a foot-list.

To answer the question for myself, I do believe there are very very few truly useless units, and I will never just dismiss a unit without testing it first. Most things can be made to work, and even if not the best choice, can perform. There are, however, some I've just not found a use for:

Nork Deddog: potentially useful in a CC CCS, but far too expensive.

Sergeant Bastonne: 50 points to give a vet squad 1 bonus order and a power weapon, when I could get another CCS and get two orders and a bunch more wounds. If he could be added to Stormtroopers, who are often outside orders range, then he might be useful if pricy, but as it stands he's largely useless and hugely overcosted.

That's about it, I think there is at least some use for any unit in the IG and various SM codexes I play.

GoingtoHell wrote:

 wuestenfux wrote:
Necrons: none.

Eldar: Swooping Hawks, Falcons, Harlequins. Iyanden Craftworld is heavily overpriced.

You consider flayed ones good?

They are slightly better in the special Necron List in IA.

 ZebioLizard2 wrote:

GoingtoHell wrote:

 wuestenfux wrote:
Necrons: none.

Eldar: Swooping Hawks, Falcons, Harlequins. Iyanden Craftworld is heavily overpriced.

You consider flayed ones good?

They are slightly better in the special Necron List in IA.

And yet still suck. They are the worst.

 ZebioLizard2 wrote:

GoingtoHell wrote:

 wuestenfux wrote:
Necrons: none.

Eldar: Swooping Hawks, Falcons, Harlequins. Iyanden Craftworld is heavily overpriced.

You consider flayed ones good?

They are slightly better in the special Necron List in IA.

This.

In fact, Flayed Ones are very situational.

Even in an entire codex full of garbage, Possessed are the worst units in the Chaos Space Marine book.

 Ironwill13791 wrote:

 Haight wrote:
Dark Angels - Dark Talon. Followed quickly by the Nephilim. Both fliers are completely garbage and overpriced for what they'll achieve. The sad thing is with a minor tweak or two, the Nephilim would be salvageable. The Dark Talon is a lost cause. Shame - it's a neat looking model.

Don't forget the dreaded Land Speeder Vengeance ..... . Like the Nephilim, it is probably a couple tweaks away from being salvageable. Even then though, lots of points for 2HPs, low armour, and a big gun. Just to help the survivability issues it would have to be partnered with the Darkshroud (which has better things it can be escorting).

Totally true. I completely forgot about the LSV. Again, a few tweaks away from being something salvageable (one of those tweaks being "points reduction"). Still doesn't hold a candle the the Dark Talon, which is just a headscratchingly LolWut model.

The dark talon is awesome in deathstars, though.

 Haight wrote:

 Ironwill13791 wrote:

 Haight wrote:
Dark Angels - Dark Talon. Followed quickly by the Nephilim. Both fliers are completely garbage and overpriced for what they'll achieve. The sad thing is with a minor tweak or two, the Nephilim would be salvageable. The Dark Talon is a lost cause. Shame - it's a neat looking model.

Don't forget the dreaded Land Speeder Vengeance ..... . Like the Nephilim, it is probably a couple tweaks away from being salvageable. Even then though, lots of points for 2HPs, low armour, and a big gun. Just to help the survivability issues it would have to be partnered with the Darkshroud (which has better things it can be escorting).

Totally true. I completely forgot about the LSV. Again, a few tweaks away from being something salvageable (one of those tweaks being "points reduction"). Still doesn't hold a candle the the Dark Talon, which is just a headscratchingly LolWut model.

Yes, with its short-ranged reality cracking cannon that cannot pierce an ork T-shirt save. And the stasis bomb that is meant to be dropped on a unit to make it an easy prey for a dedicated assault, but could very well have a bad scatter and land on your assault troops.

Hover strike is situational, but can come in handy at a key moment. The hurricane bolters are good if you combo it with hover strike and the banner of devastation. And I do like the blind special rule, it also comes in handy in certain situations (just not tau). But it really isn't worth 160pts (I wish there was a way to combo the stasis bomb and the rift cannon; that would be sweet).

Codex: IG: Rough riders. Rough riders can make a good counter assault unit, yes. But then again, so can more guns. Then there is the whole fragility issue.

Codex: Space Marines: I'm going to go on a limb here but I'd have to say melee centurions. Too slow, fragile and too few attacks for a meaningful assault unit.

Blood Angels: Captains.

Can't take Artificer Armour, can't make bikes troops, costs too damn much,.

Lucarikx

IG: Every elite option.

 Veteran of The Long War wrote:
Even in an entire codex full of garbage, Possessed are the worst units in the Chaos Space Marine book.

I'd like to nominate the Helbrute to join the CSM garbage heap so far discussed. An inconsistent slow AV12 walker with Crazed.

That makes the list of poor units: Possessed, Mutilators, Warp Talons, Defilers, Helbrutes, Berserkers, Thousand Sons, Dark Apostle, Lucius, Ahriman

There's a reason why people call our book Codex: Heldrakes

 Squidmanlolz wrote:
IG: Every elite option.

Guardsman Marbo would like to have a word with you...65 points for a guaranteed S8 AP2 Large Blast strike against
something you want eliminated/crippled is not bad.

Blood Angles: Vanguard Veterans.

Eldar: I'd say that either Banshees or Swooping Hawks.
Hemlock Wraithfighter could also be one of the worst.

 Squidmanlolz wrote:
IG: Every elite option.

See my post on the last page for why this is not the case for Ogryn and Stormtroopers.

As for the others:

Ratlings- while taking snipers is not really the best option, if you are taking them then Ratlings are the best option. They don't waste SW slots on command/vet squads, and provide better concentration than SWS.

Marbo- nuff' said.

PBS: Can be nice if a little unreliable. Work nicely in a Chimera.

The IG elite section is far from lacking. Every slot bar the PBS brings something that the army otherwise lacks. Ogryn bring CC power and force concentration, Marbo and ST bring the ability to fight where you want, countering the mobility problems, and Ratlings get you a cheap yet efficient harassment unit.

Take your pick from mine. I play chaos marines so bar 2 or 3 it's fairly craptastic.

My picks:

CSM: The Helbrute - I can make Mutilators and Warp Talons work with some outside help. I cannot, for the life of me, make such a model perform - more expensive than an oblit, goes down really fast and is very unreliable.

Daemons: hardest pick, most units have their uses. My pick goes to furies. Ld2 will ALWAYS mess your gak up.

IG: my pick here goes to the codex sentinel - easiest first blood ever, apart from the old genestealer limo

Tyranids: no, not Pyrovores, although they'd be a close second. How about a unit, which actually commits sudoku when outside synapse, is worthless as a tarpit and worthless as a CC unit, costs as much as a tricked out marine and does jack squat on the field apart from handing over first blood on a silver platter? Welcome the Rippers!

Tau: I think everything that has been said about Vespids is kinda true. They have a strong contender in the dumpy sniper drone squads imho.

BA: so many choices. So, so, many choices.

The absolute worst value in the whole book...............

tie: Vanguards or Lemartes.

GoingtoHell wrote:
Burning chariot-you will never fire it
Nurglings-why would you take them? They do [Mod Edit - Please don't try to get around the expletive filter - thanks. - Alpharius] all
Flamers-unless you take loads your making enemy units more durable and next to never killing them
Furies-have [Mod Edit - Please don't try to get around the expletive filter - thanks. - Alpharius] combat ability and when they lose a combat they die to instability.

Lol

Well I don't have the new space marine book yet but from what I have read Centurions are dumb

Tau everything has a purpose if you aren't playing super competative. I would say Vespids because they are really expensive point wise but it gives tau the much lacking initiative 6 which is really nice and ap3. Based on stat lines the fliers seem pretty fragile....but I would still use it.

Eldar...haven't played but am collecting. I know people say swooping hawks but they would be useful and can do some damage. Wraithguard and wraithblades are super expensive points wise for 5 models. Especially with d-sythes thats 200+ points for 5 models that aren't especially strong. I still use them though.

I have five armies.

CSM - Helbrute. The other units can work with back up, but the helbrute is just a stand a lone unit that die far too quickly for the damage output. Really fluffy unit, horrible on the tabletop.

Tau - Still giving the nod to vespid. They are better than they were, but way to much of a one trick pony.

SW - The dreadnaught. Same problems as the hellbrute. Just too easy to kill in this edition and costs just too many points to try and get it survivable but making it venerable.

DE - Mandrakes - Universally bad compared to everything else in the codex.

Orks - Stikkbomba boys - Yes they don't actually exist in the current codex, but their stench from the 3rd ed book is so bad that it still lingers on to this day. But in case they don't count, Flashgits.

Necrons - Triarch Praetorians

Nids - Rippers

DA - Dark Talon

 Jayden63 wrote:

SW - The dreadnaught. Same problems as the hellbrute. Just too easy to kill in this edition and costs just too many points to try and get it survivable but making it venerable.

More the fact that it doesn't have synergy with the only decent space wolf playstyle. Shooting. It has poor ranged ability and will usually do very little rather than die when targeted by a dedicated opponent. They could be useful if the army they are in suited their playstyle (tying up valuable units of MEQ's).

Vespids, they're still .

Those people saying flayed ones have obviously never seen a triarch praetorian. They easily take the cake as worst unit in the necron codex. Flayed ones might not be that good of a choice compared to the rest of the book but they have nothing on the praetorians.

For sisters, its tough. Repentia are bad but they can be somewhat made to work and are fun. Celestians are more expensive than a chaos space marine, lose 1 str, 1 toughness, 1 initiative and aren't scoring. I have seen people take Repentia in 6th edition. I have yet to see anyone take Celestians. Both units are pretty bad but I think ill actually tip my hat to the Celestians as being worse due to repentia having at least some situational uses.

 MaCa wrote:

Tau: I think everything that has been said about Vespids is kinda true. They have a strong contender in the dumpy sniper drone squads imho.

I will agree on the Vespid part but Sniper Drones with an Ethereal backing them up make for some nasty snipers. 48" BS5 Rapid Fire Snipers in general are pretty nasty! 9 shots at range 18-27 shots at 24" depending on whether buffed is pretty nasty.

 chiefbigredman wrote:
Wraithguard and wraithblades are super expensive points wise for 5 models. Especially with d-sythes thats 200+ points for 5 models that aren't especially strong. I still use them though.

Expensive, but far away from "the worst unit in codex".

Codex Dark Angels: nephilim jetfighter/dark talon

An air superiority fighter that struggles to do any damage to anyother flyer, and a ground attack craft that debuffs the enemy for way more points than it takes to actually just kill them.

 soomemafia wrote:

 chiefbigredman wrote:
Wraithguard and wraithblades are super expensive points wise for 5 models. Especially with d-sythes thats 200+ points for 5 models that aren't especially strong. I still use them though.

Expensive, but far away from "the worst unit in codex".

Their simply costed properly and that makes them uncompetitive. But there is no way you could describe them as bad.

I don't have the codex for Eldar for 6th edition, but I'll bet Shining Spears are still pretty underwhelming. They have been differing degrees of over-costed since 3rd edition. (They used to be 50 pts each in 3rd!!) The last time they had any really meaningful weapons was in 2nd edition.

It's too bad, because I have a three man squad made from Reavers with Dark Elf Cold One spears, and they look cooler than anything GW could probably come up with, as everything is based upon the ancient plastic jetbike models.

 Paradigm wrote:


Sergeant Bastonne: 50 points to give a vet squad 1 bonus order and a power weapon, when I could get another CCS and get two orders and a bunch more wounds. If he could be added to Stormtroopers, who are often outside orders range, then he might be useful if pricy, but as it stands he's largely useless and hugely overcosted.

He still comes with a carapace, and Ld10, not to mention his 'always can regroup' ability is useful-until he gets killed that is.
Bastonne would be more for foot logging veterans than the outflanking-Chimera riding vets in my mind

But yeah him vs Harker, Harker wins every time.

Inquisitor Jex wrote:

 Paradigm wrote:


Sergeant Bastonne: 50 points to give a vet squad 1 bonus order and a power weapon, when I could get another CCS and get two orders and a bunch more wounds. If he could be added to Stormtroopers, who are often outside orders range, then he might be useful if pricy, but as it stands he's largely useless and hugely overcosted.

He still comes with a carapace, and Ld10, not to mention his 'always can regroup' ability is useful-until he gets killed that is.
Bastonne would be more for foot logging veterans than the outflanking-Chimera riding vets in my mind

But yeah him vs Harker, Harker wins every time.

Ld 10 is nice, but not amazing, and the carapace is near useless when it's only on one model. No one tanks on a 4+. The regroup thing is neat, but they're Ld 10 anyway( and therefore less likely to break), so the rule actually makes itself worse in that respect. Even for foot vets (What I use most of the time) he's never been worth the cost.

CSM:

HQ: Half Pants
Elite: Mostly Pants.
Troops: Mostly Pants.
Fast Attack: Extremely overpowered and full of good choices.
Heavy Support: Half Pants.


Just about sums up my codex.....

Dark Angels

The new flyers and land speeder variants (except the Dark Shroud).

The Deathwing Knights and Ravenwing Knights are awesome though.

For CSM its probably easier to list the units that aren't a joke

MarsNZ wrote:
For CSM its probably easier to list the units that aren't a joke

True.
XXXX

DA:
-The fliers and Land Speeder Vengeance.

DE:
-Mandrakes. I cannot for the life of me figure out how to use these guys effectively...which is sad since I really want to get a box of them.
-The Archon's Court is always pretty gak considering you have to take at least one of every type of critter. If I could just take the snakes it'd be great...

IG:
-Rough Riders: They're just bad.
-Armour Sentinels: Scout Sentinels have their pretty sweet uses, and their price makes them easy last-minute squeeze-ins for smaller games, but Armoured Sentinels have pretty much lost their place with the new edition. They're the same price as Chimeras, don't have the Heavy Bolter, are slower, and can't transport 12 guardsmen. And there are better platforms for the weapon upgrades they can be given.


SM:
-Assault Centurions. They're...blegh
-Techmarines (the ones bought separately), they're just too expensive. Especially when another 50pts gets you a Thunderfire Cannon AND a techmarine!
-Vanguard Veterans...they just get too pricey when you equip them with the good stuff.

SW:
-Wolf Guard Battle Leaders: If you're going to take a CC HQ then you need to go all the way and get a Wolf Lord decked out with crazy stuff. Otherwise take a Rune Priest.

Servitors. Adding them to a techmarine or MOTF makes the whole unit majority T3 and makes it impossible to join that character to something more useful. The only purpose these things serve is making a transport vehicle able to better repair on the move, but it that really worth the points to bring the techmarine/MOTF's blessing of the omnissiah roll up?

Terminators. Oooh, a 2+/5++, power fist and ... a single wound and a storm bolter. How wonderful. Way overpriced, not enough ways to upgrade their shooting, suffers the crippling disability of either being focused down the turn after they deep strike, or being part of a ridiculously expensive Land Raider point sink.

Assault Terminators are slightly better since they have a purpose, but they still suffer from the deep strike vs land raider problem, they've only got one wound, and you have to choose between a 3++ and +1 attack.

Centurions! Oh, these guys could have been amazing if it weren't for the fact that a Devastator squad is massively cheaper for similar firepower and durability. Their only real purpose is close-up gravcannon spam, but at that range they'll be eaten alive by AP2 assault specialist units.

Assault Centurions. Dear god. Why? S9 Armourbane I4 is nice, but they're slow and purposeful! An assault unit! With slow and purposeful! They suffer from the same delivery problems as assault terminators, as well.

All Dreadnoughts suffer from not being Monstrous Creatures in an edition that heavily favors them, a lack of massed firepower (oooh, I just paid 120 points for 2 twin-linked autocannons that don't even get skyfire), and a lack of assault capability.

The "Godhammer" pattern Land Raider. Is this supposed to be a back-of-the-board lascannon platform or a transport for dedicated assault troops? The other two LR variants are leagues better.

The Stalker AA tank. Why would you take this thing when you could take an aegis defense line?

For IG: I'd say it's Ogryns and penal legions.

Space Marines? Assault Centurions.

Dark Eldar? Mandrakes.

Grey Knights? Hmmm...I have a limited army. Interceptors? Can't really say...

Tau? Again, pretty unsure. Vespid, maybe?

Tau:
Vespids or the sunshark.

Necrons:
Either Triarch Praetorians or Ctan Shard.

Nids: Hard call.
Raveners or Warriors

DA:
Nephilim - is soo cool looking but sooo bad.
Wanna buy one?

Marines:
whirlwind?

Only unit in the IG codex that I can truly say is absolute garbage because it's a truly bad unit and not because it competes with fantastic units, is Penal Legion. I've found ways to take every unit in the codex at some point (regardless of effectiveness)....still working on a reason to take those guys over a Vet Squad or Platoon...they're just garbage...I mean if I could choose what special they had it'd be decent, but it's randomized...

 soomemafia wrote:
Blood Angles: Vanguard Veterans.

Eldar: I'd say that either Banshees or Swooping Hawks.
Hemlock Wraithfighter could also be one of the worst.

actually hawks can be made to work and the flier has a lot of synergy with all the pinning in the book. I'd actually say banshees and possibly some of the Phoenix lords such as maugan

I don't think any unit in my book is truly awful, but for Space Wolves, in my opinion, it's the Skyclaw Assault Pack. I'm just not sure what I would ever do with these guys. I mean, I'm not fond of Blood Claws in general, but with Blood Claws (the base troop unit, that is), you can at least take 15 of them and stuff 'em in a Land Raider with a Wolf Priest. With Swiftclaws, at least they can cross the battlefield quickly, and they've got bolters. But Skyclaws are really only good at assault, and there's no way to safely get them into assault range quickly (especially considering how most armies can easily take down a 3+ armor save). As I said before, Blood Claws can take a Land Raider, and you can take 15 of them. Swiftclaws can move 12" then flat-out another 12". Grey Hunters and Wolf Guard can take Rhinos or Drop Pods (and Grey Hunters can be very, very versatile). Skyclaws, though, they can only do a risky deep strike that leaves them vulnerable for a turn, and their only way to stay out of template formation is to give up their (admittedly average) shooting to maybe get a decent run.

Depending on options, I think you could make a decent argument for taking any other unit in the book, but I just don't know what you would do with Skyclaws.

 washout77 wrote:
Only unit in the IG codex that I can truly say is absolute garbage because it's a truly bad unit and not because it competes with fantastic units, is Penal Legion. I've found ways to take every unit in the codex at some point (regardless of effectiveness)....still working on a reason to take those guys over a Vet Squad or Platoon...they're just garbage...I mean if I could choose what special they had it'd be decent, but it's randomized...

I used them three times, at all times as outflanking scouts. One they tied down for two turns and ultimately defeated a strikings scorpion team (they rolled psycho so extra CC weapon+rending was helpful).

Second time they were gunslingers, so they were a mildly annoyance, but 2 shots at 24 inches was still nice to have (no need for orders for that).

Third time they shot a few Lootas, got wiped come next turn or the one after with overwatch killing what was left.

Really, I used them as the fluff states; distraction and cannon fodder..an 80 pts distraction, as costly as a scout sentinel+autocannon squad true, but still, a distraction....but no, I won't use them regularly, short of for laughter. If they were with grenades (really, all that angle for melee and no 'nades?), could get more of them (as it said, whole lot of them were used, not just a single squad) and you could actually pick their special rule..then I might take'em yeah.

I think the only fix penal legion need is to drop them to 60 points. 10 points extra over an IS for scout and the random upgrade is fair, 30 extra? Nah.

Put them at 60 and I'd be building a squad right now. but at the moment, 80 points could get so much more for IG.

Siege Regiment - Hades Breaching Drill was overnerfed, Cyclop demolition thingy seems too fragile, since you can't hide the operator in a platoon or the Cyclops in a chimera.

While Pyrovores and Rippers come close, I'd say the Lictor is the worst unit in the Tyranid Codex.

No the worst in the nid dex (current) is the spore mine cluster followed by deep striking rippers.

Necrons it's the flayed ones (oh I've had great success with praetorians pistol and blade)

De mandrakes with out a doubt though decapitator is close.

CSM take your pick except drakes and IMO maulers

Daemons burning chariot lovely model good idea rules WTF.

For me, Repentia never even come close to earning their points back, they just get shot down every time I use. Once in a while they'll take out a dreadnaught or a transport that gets too close. And that's about.

The other, the Penitent Engine. They're just too big and too fragile to survive getting anywhere. They used to do an insane amount of damage if they did survive to assault, but now...just not worth it when you can have Excorcists or even a Retributer squad.

I've stopped using both in my army and I do MUCH better.

MarsNZ wrote:
For CSM its probably easier to list the units that aren't a joke

Yup.
In order of competitive power:

1) Heldrakes
2)Typhus (Ol' Reliable)
3) Plague Marines + Zombies
4) Be'lakor (When used with brains and situations)
_____________________________________________

Skullhammer wrote:
No the worst in the nid dex (current) is the spore mine cluster followed by deep striking rippers.

Both Spire Mines and Lictors are pretty useless, I still give it to the Lictor for being more expensive and taking up a valuable elite slot.

Dark Eldar: Mandrakes / Kheradruakh.

Tyranids: Swarms of any description.

Dark Angels: Tactical Squads

Banshees-difficult to pull off and are insanely situational. Grenades and a transport with assault ramps would make them worth it.. not gonna happen
Shining Spears- after the first round of attacks they're probably dead. More attacks Could make them worth it. MAYBE
DE Mandrakes and Jetbikes are completely worthless

Redseer wrote:
Banshees-difficult to pull off and are insanely situational. Grenades and a transport with assault ramps would make them worth it.. not gonna happen
Shining Spears- after the first round of attacks they're probably dead. More attacks Could make them worth it. MAYBE
DE Mandrakes and Jetbikes are completely worthless

You obviously know little of DE if you truly believe that jetbikes are worthless. They are near enough essential unless you are taking blasterborn in venoms.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Selym wrote:

MarsNZ wrote:
For CSM its probably easier to list the units that aren't a joke

Yup.
In order of competitive power:

1) Heldrakes
2)Typhus (Ol' Reliable)
3) Plague Marines + Zombies
4) Be'lakor (When used with brains and situations)
_____________________________________________

Be'lakor is one of the best HQ's in the game at the moment. He is far more competitive than anything on that list including the heldrake.

I have found a good use for every unit in the IG codex, hell even stormtroopers for marine hunting worked for me, but the real only unit that i think is downright useless in the entirety of 40k is probably mutilators, penal legionnaires, mandrakes, and maybe a few others. I actually love rough riders and counter charge. Helps me defend my gunlines, and helps me take out targets of interest in lower point games, for example plasma chosen or sternguard and such

Nids: It's all about to change, so we'll have to come back and update this thread in a month or so. Right now, the list is nearly as long as CSM.....

Eldar: Banshees, easy. Most other units are usuable to some degree. Banshees are not.

CSM: This has been amply covered, but I'm going to go with Khorne Berzerkers.

Necrons: Despite all the talk about Flayed ones and Triach Praetorians, I have used both succesfully quite a few times, in a competitive environment. TPs require a Dlord to be effective, but they can be pretty good. Flayed ones are significantly better when taken in a Dark Harvest list, with flensing scarabs.

People saying TPs are bad, need to take a look at lychguard. They are slower,can be more expensive, and have no shooting attack. As much as I enjoy the models, and enjoyed them in 5th, they are just bad in the current edition.

CSM
The absolute worst unit I can see is Mutilators. Even the Hellbrute with a recent loadout, hiding in cover seems better than bloody Mutilators.

IG
Rough Riders or Ogryns. Pick your poison.

GKs
Aside from the dreadful champion, I would say the Purgitation squads. Just do not like them.

Orks

Arguably Kommandos (without Snikrot) due to being pretty overcosted for the ability to infiltrate and move through cover while lacking the numbers or any form of sufficient survivability (i.e. stealth/shrouded) or damaging weaponry to make up for this. Also with 6th edition's nerfs towards units in reserves being unable to assault when they come onto the table makes them sitting ducks when they finally do arrive. Other than that the only other real contender would be Flash Gitz or Deff Dreadz.

 chiefbigredman wrote:
Eldar...haven't played but am collecting. I know people say swooping hawks but they would be useful and can do some damage. Wraithguard and wraithblades are super expensive points wise for 5 models. Especially with d-sythes thats 200+ points for 5 models that aren't especially strong. I still use them though.

Its obvious that you haven't played Eldar yet if you think d-scythe Wraithguard are overpriced. Both of the shooting varieties of WG are simply amazing against pretty much any army. If anything, WG are probably slightly undercosted in comparison to comparable units. For example, take 200 points of WG and compare them to 200 points of tactical terminators....its not even close.

As for worst unit, for SM I'm leaning towards tactical terminators, assault squads, assault centurions, and vanguard. All of these units suffer from being heavily overpriced and having a lack of offensive output. Marine assaults are kind of toothless for the most part, because either the unit is slow and can't SA (termies), don't come stock with the right tools for the job (Assault Marines and Vanguard), or put out too few attacks to have much impact (Assault Centurions).

For Daemons, I'm thinking the Slaanesh Chariot. Too fragile and largely ineffective rules. The Burning Chariot seems interesting if they actually fix it so that the weapons are on the chariot and not the passenger. Nurglings are pretty useless.

 ClassicCarraway wrote:

 chiefbigredman wrote:
Eldar...haven't played but am collecting. I know people say swooping hawks but they would be useful and can do some damage. Wraithguard and wraithblades are super expensive points wise for 5 models. Especially with d-sythes thats 200+ points for 5 models that aren't especially strong. I still use them though.

Its obvious that you haven't played Eldar yet if you think d-scythe Wraithguard are overpriced. Both of the shooting varieties of WG are simply amazing against pretty much any army. If anything, WG are probably slightly undercosted in comparison to comparable units. For example, take 200 points of WG and compare them to 200 points of tactical terminators....its not even close.

Comparing the price to tactical terminators is totally irrelevant and has no impact whatsoever on a cost effectiveness verdict. They are in fact slightly overpriced for what they do but due to the role they can perform in a list centered around wraith constructs they are far from bad.

XXXX

Most of all I loathe footnobs because I have tried so much to use them and all they have managed to do is piss me off. They're so damn expensive and still unimpressive in combat AND if the Warboss dies, they are cowards too.

Flash Gitz at least shoot so they're better.

Likan Wolfsheim wrote:

-Armour Sentinels: Scout Sentinels have their pretty sweet uses, and their price makes them easy last-minute squeeze-ins for smaller games, but Armoured Sentinels have pretty much lost their place with the new edition. They're the same price as Chimeras, don't have the Heavy Bolter, are slower, and can't transport 12 guardsmen. And there are better platforms for the weapon upgrades they can be given.

I actually disagree with that...one armored sentinel can tie up an entire Khorne Hound blob. 20 Hounds are going to fething roflstomp you if you don't do something about them, and Chimeras can't really handle them. In fact, if they've got Grimoire, not much really can handle them.

Army time army time!
3 armies that I truly play (the rest are either rarely touched or in development)

1. CSM- As others have mentioned, it is easier to list what doesn't suck in that codex then what does.

2. Chaos Daemons- Burning Chariot of Tzeentch. It doesn't even WORK and they STILL haven't fixed it. What the feth were they thinking?

3. IG- Hrmmmm..... I'd say either penal legion or the riders.

It is more my belief, that there are not necessarily useless units, more of most favorite units to least favorite units. Depending upon a person's bankroll, there are any number of reasons why's anyone might favor a particular unit over another. Since I currently do not own at least 1 copy of every unit in the IG codex, it would be premature of me to presume any particular unit's superiority over another Unit.

A lot of different folks can have a lot different experiences with any particular unit(s). In the end, I do know that the phrase, "results may vary" is very applicable here.

SYKOJAK wrote:
It is more my belief, that there are not necessarily useless units, more of most favorite units to least favorite units. Depending upon a person's bankroll, there are any number of reasons why's anyone might favor a particular unit over another. Since I currently do not own at least 1 copy of every unit in the IG codex, it would be premature of me to presume any particular unit's superiority over another Unit.

A lot of different folks can have a lot different experiences with any particular unit(s). In the end, I do know that the phrase, "results may vary" is very applicable here.

Very well said.

It is a mistake just to dismiss a unit just because someone on the internet told you to. Everything has some use, and only a few things are so horribly overcosted that they are actually a detriment to take, and its only the idea that you must take the 'best' unit that means other, less useful but still good, unit get ignored.

Hellhounds are an example. While in terms of efficiency per point the lose out to Vendettas, they are still one of the best ways IG have to clear out entrenched infantry, and in the age of 4+ xenos they are far far more useful that they are given credit for. It really does seem that parts of the community are intent of only having one 'right' way to build each army, as so many times I see proposals to use less-optimum units ruthlessly shot down. Open minds are essential to get the best from a codex or army.

SYKOJAK wrote:
It is more my belief, that there are not necessarily useless units, more of most favorite units to least favorite units. Depending upon a person's bankroll, there are any number of reasons why's anyone might favor a particular unit over another. Since I currently do not own at least 1 copy of every unit in the IG codex, it would be premature of me to presume any particular unit's superiority over another Unit.

A lot of different folks can have a lot different experiences with any particular unit(s). In the end, I do know that the phrase, "results may vary" is very applicable here.

Until you play CSM, and realize that you're not going to win a game without an effing Heldrake :/

But, Your Codex May Vary.

I play CSM and I have won games without an effing Heldrake :-)

Then again I play casually and not in tournaments so I guess it's different.

OT, my vote for Eldar would go to Banshees as they are dead meat without grenades or assault transports or Shining Spears as they are too reliant on breaking or wiping out the enemy on the charge which they don't always have enough attacks for.

They are made to kill elite 3+ save units which eldar can go easily with bladestorm, monofilament and fire prisms/dark reapers.

For CSM, I would say Possessed. Great concept, but very expensive and unable to reach assault without a land raider. If they were beasts or could take wings, they could be awesome.

While Celestians rightly see absolutely zero play, I'd still say the Penitent Engine is the worst unit for the Sisters because it takes up one of our precious Heavy slots. While a Retributor Squad potentially could make up for (and situationally even exceed) what you get with an exorcist, the Penitent Engine is really only three walking pieces of spectacular fireworks.

As if walkers aren't already suffering in 6th, they're open topped too.

I'd still say they have a hypothetical use in some very specific situations, but as they take up a heavy choice, they simply come out on top of the useless heap for me.

We need our exorcists, we could never go with less than two and if we're gonna drop one exorcist it's gonna be for Ret Squad.

 Selym wrote:

SYKOJAK wrote:
It is more my belief, that there are not necessarily useless units, more of most favorite units to least favorite units. Depending upon a person's bankroll, there are any number of reasons why's anyone might favor a particular unit over another. Since I currently do not own at least 1 copy of every unit in the IG codex, it would be premature of me to presume any particular unit's superiority over another Unit.

A lot of different folks can have a lot different experiences with any particular unit(s). In the end, I do know that the phrase, "results may vary" is very applicable here.

Until you play CSM, and realize that you're not going to win a game without an effing Heldrake :/

But, Your Codex May Vary.

This is simply wrong. Running nurgle marked spawn in a star with either typhus (and therefore large squads of plague zombies) or a burgle marked lord on a bike with powerfist and lightning claw with plague marines as troops. In this list you do not need a heldrake and it will win relatively efficiently against most mid to higher level lists.

XXXX

Eldar: Storm Guardians, Banshees, Wraithfighter and Wraithblades.

Dark Angels: Their flyers.

Imperial Fists: Rhinos, Storm Talon, melee Centurions

GoingtoHell wrote:

 Selym wrote:

SYKOJAK wrote:
It is more my belief, that there are not necessarily useless units, more of most favorite units to least favorite units. Depending upon a person's bankroll, there are any number of reasons why's anyone might favor a particular unit over another. Since I currently do not own at least 1 copy of every unit in the IG codex, it would be premature of me to presume any particular unit's superiority over another Unit.

A lot of different folks can have a lot different experiences with any particular unit(s). In the end, I do know that the phrase, "results may vary" is very applicable here.

Until you play CSM, and realize that you're not going to win a game without an effing Heldrake :/

But, Your Codex May Vary.

This is simply wrong. Running nurgle marked spawn in a star with either typhus (and therefore large squads of plague zombies) or a burgle marked lord on a bike with powerfist and lightning claw with plague marines as troops. In this list you do not need a heldrake and it will win relatively efficiently against most mid to higher level lists.

XXXX

The first is easily killed by riptide and wave serpant spam, and is rather slow at moving 6" with typhus slowing the group down, and daemons will simply kill through with Khorne hounds, and the second actually dies against heldrakes.

Eldar:
Banshees, Hemlock, Harlequins.

Tau:
Vespid.

Blood Angels:
I don't even know where to begin. Maybe Sanguinor due to the amount points he takes up. Techmarine is also pretty garbage.

 ZebioLizard2 wrote:

GoingtoHell wrote:

 Selym wrote:

SYKOJAK wrote:
It is more my belief, that there are not necessarily useless units, more of most favorite units to least favorite units. Depending upon a person's bankroll, there are any number of reasons why's anyone might favor a particular unit over another. Since I currently do not own at least 1 copy of every unit in the IG codex, it would be premature of me to presume any particular unit's superiority over another Unit.

A lot of different folks can have a lot different experiences with any particular unit(s). In the end, I do know that the phrase, "results may vary" is very applicable here.

Until you play CSM, and realize that you're not going to win a game without an effing Heldrake :/

But, Your Codex May Vary.

This is simply wrong. Running nurgle marked spawn in a star with either typhus (and therefore large squads of plague zombies) or a burgle marked lord on a bike with powerfist and lightning claw with plague marines as troops. In this list you do not need a heldrake and it will win relatively efficiently against most mid to higher level lists.

XXXX

The first is easily killed by riptide and wave serpant spam, and is rather slow at moving 6" with typhus slowing the group down, and daemons will simply kill through with Khorne hounds, and the second actually dies against heldrakes.

Both of which are top meta lists. If you ever thought you could take CSM against either of these lists and not be fighting an uphill battle then you are sorely mistaken. Besides how exactly does a heldrake counter any of thee lists? Pure CSM are not a competitive force.

XXXX

Rhinos.

Warbuggies
Av10 vehicles with 2 HP. Can give them twin-linked big shootas or rokkits, but still, av10 and 2 HP.

If you dont hold them in reserves they will be first blood for sure. And even if you do hold them in reserves they dont have outflank or anything so they just come in from the back edge.

Maybe if they had BS3 they would be better.

GoingtoHell wrote:

 ZebioLizard2 wrote:

GoingtoHell wrote:

 Selym wrote:

SYKOJAK wrote:
It is more my belief, that there are not necessarily useless units, more of most favorite units to least favorite units. Depending upon a person's bankroll, there are any number of reasons why's anyone might favor a particular unit over another. Since I currently do not own at least 1 copy of every unit in the IG codex, it would be premature of me to presume any particular unit's superiority over another Unit.

A lot of different folks can have a lot different experiences with any particular unit(s). In the end, I do know that the phrase, "results may vary" is very applicable here.

Until you play CSM, and realize that you're not going to win a game without an effing Heldrake :/

But, Your Codex May Vary.

This is simply wrong. Running nurgle marked spawn in a star with either typhus (and therefore large squads of plague zombies) or a burgle marked lord on a bike with powerfist and lightning claw with plague marines as troops. In this list you do not need a heldrake and it will win relatively efficiently against most mid to higher level lists.

XXXX

The first is easily killed by riptide and wave serpant spam, and is rather slow at moving 6" with typhus slowing the group down, and daemons will simply kill through with Khorne hounds, and the second actually dies against heldrakes.

Both of which are top meta lists. If you ever thought you could take CSM against either of these lists and not be fighting an uphill battle then you are sorely mistaken. Besides how exactly does a heldrake counter any of thee lists? Pure CSM are not a competitive force.

XXXX

Want to go bikers to guard your lord? Well then watch as I deny your cover save and your armor save each turn blazing through them. Putting him with spawn? Ha I beg you to! I'll just focus fire if you don't have him in the open because a bike gets a 5+ cover save for driving. Spawn are not worth it if moving that slow. One of their big selling points is they are beasts meaning 12 inches+d6 and entirely ignoring cover. Any army fielding high strength guns will chew through spawn if they can at best move 6+d6 and that is ignoring the fact that Typhus would force them to move d6 inches through terrain.

Also, if pure CSM are not competitive, then what is? We are only BB with one faction that has innumerable rules to restrict those benefits and it is an army that arguably does better without us. The only thing chaos has going for them is perhaps Huron, Be'lakour (whom daemons can take), chaos lord Nurgle everything, Khorne axe juggerlord maybe, Plague Marines, Heldrake, okay bikers, and pretty good spawn oh and the bandaid Oblit that has lost much of its former glory. The book is an utter mess and it is a fluff destroying unplayable mess of uninspiring proportions. It destroyed the intrigue of warp denizens besides the 4 gods, it entirely removed undivided daemons, it hamstrung us with possibly the worst special rule for the army (although DA give us a run for money). And don't even try to play Tzeentch unless you play daemons or play them only in name. There is approximately one model in the entire book where the mark of Tzeentch is the best option and for most others it is insanity to take the mark and Thousand Sons have yet again been a trashy unit whilst Tzeentchian sorcerers are worse than every sorcerer and the only psyker they might best is ld8 psykers.

The new tyranid malenthrope rules in APOC.

They are so bad, its literally stunning.

I will have to use my model to proxy something better, like a ripper with a broken tooth....

 Banzaimash wrote:
Rhinos.

Rhinos work pretty well for my IF and Sisters. I count them as a "Must take."

 StarTrotter wrote:

GoingtoHell wrote:

 ZebioLizard2 wrote:

GoingtoHell wrote:

 Selym wrote:

SYKOJAK wrote:
It is more my belief, that there are not necessarily useless units, more of most favorite units to least favorite units. Depending upon a person's bankroll, there are any number of reasons why's anyone might favor a particular unit over another. Since I currently do not own at least 1 copy of every unit in the IG codex, it would be premature of me to presume any particular unit's superiority over another Unit.

A lot of different folks can have a lot different experiences with any particular unit(s). In the end, I do know that the phrase, "results may vary" is very applicable here.

Until you play CSM, and realize that you're not going to win a game without an effing Heldrake :/

But, Your Codex May Vary.

This is simply wrong. Running nurgle marked spawn in a star with either typhus (and therefore large squads of plague zombies) or a burgle marked lord on a bike with powerfist and lightning claw with plague marines as troops. In this list you do not need a heldrake and it will win relatively efficiently against most mid to higher level lists.

XXXX

The first is easily killed by riptide and wave serpant spam, and is rather slow at moving 6" with typhus slowing the group down, and daemons will simply kill through with Khorne hounds, and the second actually dies against heldrakes.

Both of which are top meta lists. If you ever thought you could take CSM against either of these lists and not be fighting an uphill battle then you are sorely mistaken. Besides how exactly does a heldrake counter any of thee lists? Pure CSM are not a competitive force.

XXXX

Want to go bikers to guard your lord? Well then watch as I deny your cover save and your armor save each turn blazing through them. Putting him with spawn? Ha I beg you to! I'll just focus fire if you don't have him in the open because a bike gets a 5+ cover save for driving. Spawn are not worth it if moving that slow. One of their big selling points is they are beasts meaning 12 inches+d6 and entirely ignoring cover. Any army fielding high strength guns will chew through spawn if they can at best move 6+d6 and that is ignoring the fact that Typhus would force them to move d6 inches through terrain.

So let me get this straight. Your saying that because a heldrake can kill this list, because something can kills this list that it is useless? By that logic a deer council sucks because it dies to mind strike missiles...yeah no. Heldrakes are by no means essential to a CSM list. Did I ever say they were weak? No. They are very useful units but are not an auto take to win.

XXXX

GoingtoHell wrote:

 StarTrotter wrote:

GoingtoHell wrote:

 ZebioLizard2 wrote:

GoingtoHell wrote:

 Selym wrote:

SYKOJAK wrote:
It is more my belief, that there are not necessarily useless units, more of most favorite units to least favorite units. Depending upon a person's bankroll, there are any number of reasons why's anyone might favor a particular unit over another. Since I currently do not own at least 1 copy of every unit in the IG codex, it would be premature of me to presume any particular unit's superiority over another Unit.

A lot of different folks can have a lot different experiences with any particular unit(s). In the end, I do know that the phrase, "results may vary" is very applicable here.

Until you play CSM, and realize that you're not going to win a game without an effing Heldrake :/

But, Your Codex May Vary.

This is simply wrong. Running nurgle marked spawn in a star with either typhus (and therefore large squads of plague zombies) or a burgle marked lord on a bike with powerfist and lightning claw with plague marines as troops. In this list you do not need a heldrake and it will win relatively efficiently against most mid to higher level lists.

XXXX

The first is easily killed by riptide and wave serpant spam, and is rather slow at moving 6" with typhus slowing the group down, and daemons will simply kill through with Khorne hounds, and the second actually dies against heldrakes.

Both of which are top meta lists. If you ever thought you could take CSM against either of these lists and not be fighting an uphill battle then you are sorely mistaken. Besides how exactly does a heldrake counter any of thee lists? Pure CSM are not a competitive force.

XXXX

Want to go bikers to guard your lord? Well then watch as I deny your cover save and your armor save each turn blazing through them. Putting him with spawn? Ha I beg you to! I'll just focus fire if you don't have him in the open because a bike gets a 5+ cover save for driving. Spawn are not worth it if moving that slow. One of their big selling points is they are beasts meaning 12 inches+d6 and entirely ignoring cover. Any army fielding high strength guns will chew through spawn if they can at best move 6+d6 and that is ignoring the fact that Typhus would force them to move d6 inches through terrain.

So let me get this straight. Your saying that because a heldrake can kill this list, because something can kills this list that it is useless? By that logic a deer council sucks because it dies to mind strike missiles...yeah no. Heldrakes are by no means essential to a CSM list. Did I ever say they were weak? No. They are very useful units but are not an auto take to win.

XXXX

I only said why the heldrake counters that specific setup not that it entirely invalidates it (CSM have long lost their popularity of 3.5) although then with a competitive environment flushed with that, the rise of Tau and riptide in popularity at shops it does also limit its effectiveness. That being said, spawn are good, bikes are okay, and kitted out chaos lords are okay-pretty good so certainly not worst unit in the codex. On a quick note, it is funny to me that spawn went from one of the worst units in the game to one of the best units in the CSM codex.

Orks

Tank Bustas: Too fragile to really hurt tanks that much. Don't have Tank Hhunter and Glory Hogs makes 'em useless.

Warbuggy: Over priced and under powered. You'd be better off buying a trukk and getting a proper transport.

Stormboyz: Basically a suicide squad. once in the fray they are just normal boyz. need better armor and some special rules.

Kommandos: See OP

Flash Gitz: See OP

Weird boy: Too expensive and can;t compete anymore with the Psykers of today

Deff Dread/Killa Kan: Walkers more fragile that your average Dread. To be fair though, if you opponent doesn't think to use grenades or has none, then a Deff Dread with 4 DNCCW can wreck face pretty well.

Burnas(sort of): Only really effective against swarm 'nids with lots of gaunts

 Overlord Thraka wrote:
Orks

Tank Bustas: Too fragile to really hurt tanks that much. Don't have Tank Hhunter and Glory Hogs makes 'em useless.

Warbuggy: Over priced and under powered. You'd be better off buying a trukk and getting a proper transport.

Stormboyz: Basically a suicide squad. once in the fray they are just normal boyz. need better armor and some special rules.

Kommandos: See OP

Flash Gitz: See OP

Weird boy: Too expensive and can;t compete anymore with the Psykers of today

Deff Dread/Killa Kan: Walkers more fragile that your average Dread. To be fair though, if you opponent doesn't think to use grenades or has none, then a Deff Dread with 4 DNCCW can wreck face pretty well.

Burnas(sort of): Only really effective against swarm 'nids with lots of gaunts

I would disagree with the dreads. If your opponent hasn't brought the right list to counter them a dread/kan spam list can be devastating. If they have...good luck...

XXXX

 Farseer Faenyin wrote:


Imperial Fists: Rhinos, Storm Talon

Those 2 units are really great.

 sing your life wrote:

 Farseer Faenyin wrote:


Imperial Fists: Rhinos, Storm Talon

Those 2 units are really great.

Not really great but far from the worst

XXXX

If the Stormtalon is the worst what does that make the raven?

Martel732 wrote:
If the Stormtalon is the worst what does that make the raven?

My answer:

GoingtoHell wrote:

 ClassicCarraway wrote:

 chiefbigredman wrote:
Eldar...haven't played but am collecting. I know people say swooping hawks but they would be useful and can do some damage. Wraithguard and wraithblades are super expensive points wise for 5 models. Especially with d-sythes thats 200+ points for 5 models that aren't especially strong. I still use them though.

Its obvious that you haven't played Eldar yet if you think d-scythe Wraithguard are overpriced. Both of the shooting varieties of WG are simply amazing against pretty much any army. If anything, WG are probably slightly undercosted in comparison to comparable units. For example, take 200 points of WG and compare them to 200 points of tactical terminators....its not even close.

Comparing the price to tactical terminators is totally irrelevant and has no impact whatsoever on a cost effectiveness verdict. They are in fact slightly overpriced for what they do but due to the role they can perform in a list centered around wraith constructs they are far from bad.

XXXX

I disagree, I feel its a completely relevant comparison. In fact, that's kind of how you determine if something is overpriced or not, by comparing it to different units that have the same role. Both units serve the same purpose, elite heavy infantry. WG excel in this role while being cheaper than tactical Terminators initially, while Terminators are both less effective and cost more.

What do you think a T6 3+ save model (effectively making the unit immune to basic small arms fire) with a base weapon that can easily wreck a Land Raider and causes ID to most targets should cost? Also, take into consideration that WG have access to the best dedicated transport in the game, and can be made Troops rather easily. If you ask me, for their points, WG are a steal (especially in a WS).

Since all units have stats that are compatible, we can literally compare anything to anything in 40K.

That's why people who say "But you can't compare the Stormraven to the Vendetta!" annoy me. I play against them frequently. The hell I can't compare.

the CSM codex personally, from my standpoint, has the following COMPETITIVE units.

Zombie Cultists
Heldrakes

Everything else from my point of view, is either over costed, terrible at its role, or simply not fitting with the dex match up and current state of 6th Ed. Tri Las Preds I would say are "OK" but not amazing since they have 1 simple function, and even then its a probable waste of time. Our land Raiders might be cheap, but they're stuck with a load out that we simply dont want...nor need...

CSM has meq disease. If you combined all the best stuff from all meq codices, you MIGHT be able to go toe to toe with Taudar, but I doubt it.

But plague marines are still awesome.

Plague Marines are nice, but I still think they could be a LOT cheaper... It's bad enough to consider them troops, you have ot invest 65+15+(inset competitive upgrades to Chaos Lord here) first... 24 points per model is ravenous. take 2 squads of 7 for 14 models = 336 points no upgs. Then factor in that if you want them as troops you might as well take the lord or Typhus, either way, ur dividing his point value into their cost since he probably wont see much play time himself...

so..

336 point for Plague Marines. (+30 points per squad for plasma guns = 60 total) = 396

Lord = 65 + 15 + Terminator Armor 40 / Bike 20
+ Sigil 25
+ Black Mace 45 / Murder sword 35 / BBoS 30
= 155 - 190 points

Divide that into your squad, each member basically costing you an extra 27 points per model if you want them to be troops..

Same can be said about Noise Marines too, and I love my Noise Marines... but for the basics / mandatory list build for them, you're looking at 291 points for a squad of 10 with 2 blast masters FnP and Sonic Blasters. For their use, they are expensive as all hell and simply not worth taking when you consider their Troop Unlocking character is a melee =/ (Lucious the Eternal) Then you try to build a Lord for shooti and he is terrible... I guess if you really wanted to waste your time you could throw the BBoS on HIM instead and between your Sergeant's Doom Siren, and his BBoS you could probably kill a few things charging you.... If you bother adding the points in...

I can see all your points. But we are back to meq disease. We are both in the same boat.

Necrons:
Lychguard - slow, expensive, and a crappy save even with the shield (and in IA they get worse). Flayed ones are cheap and have some use. Praetorians (with void blades) need a DLord but are more agile and maneuverable.

Orks:
TankBustas - Gloryhog is their downfall.

Dark Eldar:
Archon's court - only because you have to take one of each model else it'd be Mandrakes.

CSM:
Mutilators - Slow, Expensive, and really make no sense other than GW's need to have a CC clone of Oblits for some reason.

Flashgitz

Ratlings

And any BT named character haha

 Solosam47 wrote:
Flashgitz

Ratlings

And any BT named character haha

Joking about the BT named chars right? far from the worst in the codex.

Demon prince doesn't have eternal warrior? (But the demon army one does and you have to pay more points for power armor?)
Defiler's weapon load out not making any sense?
Tzeentch sorcerers some of the worst psykers in the game?
Mutilators suck for CC unit?
Warp Talons....just, no.
1kSons Marines cost as much as terminators and can't take heavy weapons or really do much at all?

Did GW even read this book before they sent it to the printers?

For Eldar its pretty easy. They have a few bums in the codex.
Elites
1. Howling Banshees Jesus H Christ they suck. No grenades 4+ armor and only AP3 weapons. Can't even kill characters and can't assault vehicles. They could but it'd be pointless.
2. Harlequins. No dedicated transport kills them. Well that and they suck.
Troops
1. Storm Guardians I see people play these and say to myself "you must be stupid, stupid, stupid...."
FA
1. Shining Spears god they are crappy too. 6" range you have to buy hit and run (Spiders get it free) basic PL is S6AP3 not exactly a devastating weapon there. Ohh and explain to me how a suicide unit works with a race going extinct.
2. Hemlock isn't that awful but you have to build around it and its soooooo situational.
Heavy
1. Falcon its actually decent but so many other BETTER choices in this slot.
2. Wraithlord not because its bad but Fire Prisms, Vauls HS guns, WK, Dark Reapers and War Walkers all give better value.

I love how these threads always just turn into codex whine. "oh it's ALL terrible!"

The object of the exercise is to pick out the ONE unit in your codex that you think takes the cake and explain why. Not ramble on about everything you don't like in your codex.

Mine would merging BT with SM. I wish BT have a codex, since they feel like plain, stupid vanilla SM. Unless I put my touch on my army.

 lobbywatson wrote:
For Eldar its pretty easy. They have a few bums in the codex.
Elites
1. Howling Banshees Jesus H Christ they suck. No grenades 4+ armor and only AP3 weapons. Can't even kill characters and can't assault vehicles. They could but it'd be pointless.
2. Harlequins. No dedicated transport kills them. Well that and they suck.
Troops
1. Storm Guardians I see people play these and say to myself "you must be stupid, stupid, stupid...."
FA
1. Shining Spears god they are crappy too. 6" range you have to buy hit and run (Spiders get it free) basic PL is S6AP3 not exactly a devastating weapon there. Ohh and explain to me how a suicide unit works with a race going extinct.
2. Hemlock isn't that awful but you have to build around it and its soooooo situational.
Heavy
1. Falcon its actually decent but so many other BETTER choices in this slot.
2. Wraithlord not because its bad but Fire Prisms, Vauls HS guns, WK, Dark Reapers and War Walkers all give better value.

Codes CSM would fall and its knees and beg for some of the units you listed there...

XXXX

 Unholyllama wrote:
Necrons:
Lychguard - slow, expensive, and a crappy save even with the shield (and in IA they get worse). Flayed ones are cheap and have some use. Praetorians (with void blades) need a DLord but are more agile and maneuverable.

Orks:
TankBustas - Gloryhog is their downfall.

Dark Eldar:
Archon's court - only because you have to take one of each model else it'd be Mandrakes.

CSM:
Mutilators - Slow, Expensive, and really make no sense other than GW's need to have a CC clone of Oblits for some reason.

Until this post, I kept thinking people were talking about oblits. I asked myself: "the feth is wrong here?", then I read this and realized you're all discussing the CC cousin. Much more sense now.

Could someone explain why the Hydra isn't on this list? It could be redeemed by taking 2 in a squad for the price of a single LR for lots of TL dakka, but with no skyfire, how does it do anything to fliers? I'd much rather have skyfire than an anti-jink special rule. That said, I've never used them yet, so if they actually have worth, please do explain their usefulness to me.

 MWHistorian wrote:

 Banzaimash wrote:
Rhinos.

Rhinos work pretty well for my IF and Sisters. I count them as a "Must take."

It's probably just my personal experience of them then. They just always seem to give first blood and not go very far. I prefer footslogging because the squads inside them are more durable and my BT cover 10-12" a turn with running, so they can still cover ground quite fast.

FAQd, Hydras have skyfire but not intercept.

so no one agrees with me about some of the phoenix lords

 hiveof_chimera wrote:
so no one agrees with me about some of the phoenix lords

most of the Phoenix Lords are pretty good beat sticks, and pretty survivable at that. Expensive, yes, but not overly so when compared to other named HQ for other armies. Baharroth is probably the weakest one of the bunch, and only just because he has an AP3 close combat weapon but his abilities and other wargear help alleviate this.

 Artanis wrote:

 Veteran of The Long War wrote:
Even in an entire codex full of garbage, Possessed are the worst units in the Chaos Space Marine book.

I'd like to nominate the Helbrute to join the CSM garbage heap so far discussed. An inconsistent slow AV12 walker with Crazed.

That makes the list of poor units: Possessed, Mutilators, Warp Talons, Defilers, Helbrutes, Berserkers, Thousand Sons, Dark Apostle, Lucius, Ahriman

There's a reason why people call our book Codex: Heldrakes

That makes the list of poor units: Basic Chaos Space Marines, Possessed, Mutilators, Warp Talons, Defilers, Helbrutes, Berserkers, Thousand Sons, Dark Apostle, Lucius, Ahriman

Fixed that for you.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Oh, and for everyone bitching about the CSM dex, yes it is underpowered in the general meta.

BUT, they are very balanced against other marine builds. In fact, if you have pure CSM army, I would suggest only playing them against other marines.

You can get some epic battles going with CSM vs. Marines that are very fun.

Xenos rule 6th right now, and it is not worth fighting them with CSM competitively. Compare a basic Eldar Guardian to a basic Chaos Space Marine...
The Guardian has rending, all of the Eldar troops have fricking RENDING! And we are not even talking about Battle Focus.

MEQ need to stay in the playground and play each other for balance.

 Jimsolo wrote:
Space Marines? Assault Centurions.

Dark Eldar? Mandrakes.

Grey Knights? Hmmm...I have a limited army. Interceptors? Can't really say...

Tau? Again, pretty unsure. Vespid, maybe?

I might have to disagree about the Mandrakes, at least based my experience. I have usually used them on the fringe part of battles, backing up other units until they get buffed enough to send in on their own. They can be a surprisingly good tarpit unit at that point.

Dark Apostle. nuff said

Codex: Space Marines: Centurions

Reasons:
1) TERRIBLE synergy with other Chapter Tactics (counting out the Iron Hands, that possibly makes them at least decent, should someone wants to field them).
2) They don't do anything that other units would do better or cheaper.
3) Two wounds, but no invulnerable save... 'scuse me, mate, but WAT? STR10 / AP2 will wipe 'em off the table.
4) They can't overwatch or sweeping advance, so opponent's models will ALWAYS run away when Ld test fails, so melee will look silly when Assault Centurions just watch how their recently poked target just flees and possibly launches a counter-attack next turn.
5) Devastator Centurions' lack of power weapons and any melee prowess whatsoever just screams tarpitting them with anything lousy and cheap.
6) 190 points for 3 man squad, 60 points per extra model. I will rather invest into hammernators or missile devastators.

Despite the "good" sides of these guys (2 wounds, can fire two weapons, and twin-linked everywhere), they are just crushed by the bad sides that makes them unplayable or at least undesired in my ears, disregarding their unaesthetic look and "meh"-class fluff.

 Tigramans wrote:
Codex: Space Marines: Centurions

Reasons:
1) TERRIBLE synergy with other Chapter Tactics (counting out the Iron Hands, that possibly makes them at least decent, should someone wants to field them).
2) They don't do anything that other units would do better or cheaper.
3) Two wounds, but no invulnerable save... 'scuse me, mate, but WAT? STR10 / AP2 will wipe 'em off the table.
4) They can't overwatch or sweeping advance, so opponent's models will ALWAYS run away when Ld test fails, so melee will look silly when Assault Centurions just watch how their recently poked target just flees and possibly launches a counter-attack next turn.
5) Devastator Centurions' lack of power weapons and any melee prowess whatsoever just screams tarpitting them with anything lousy and cheap.
6) 190 points for 3 man squad, 60 points per extra model. I will rather invest into hammernators or missile devastators.

Despite the "good" sides of these guys (2 wounds, can fire two weapons, and twin-linked everywhere), they are just crushed by the bad sides that makes them unplayable or at least undesired in my ears, disregarding their unaesthetic look and "meh"-class fluff.

This a book with devastator marines, the Stormraven, assault marines, tactical marines, dreadnoughts, hunters, and vanguards and this is what you come up with?

Aftermath. wrote:

 Artanis wrote:

 Veteran of The Long War wrote:
Even in an entire codex full of garbage, Possessed are the worst units in the Chaos Space Marine book.

I'd like to nominate the Helbrute to join the CSM garbage heap so far discussed. An inconsistent slow AV12 walker with Crazed.

That makes the list of poor units: Possessed, Mutilators, Warp Talons, Defilers, Helbrutes, Berserkers, Thousand Sons, Dark Apostle, Lucius, Ahriman

There's a reason why people call our book Codex: Heldrakes

That makes the list of poor units: Basic Chaos Space Marines, Possessed, Mutilators, Warp Talons, Defilers, Helbrutes, Berserkers, Thousand Sons, Dark Apostle, Lucius, Ahriman

Fixed that for you.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Oh, and for everyone bitching about the CSM dex, yes it is underpowered in the general meta.

BUT, they are very balanced against other marine builds. In fact, if you have pure CSM army, I would suggest only playing them against other marines.

You can get some epic battles going with CSM vs. Marines that are very fun.

Xenos rule 6th right now, and it is not worth fighting them with CSM competitively. Compare a basic Eldar Guardian to a basic Chaos Space Marine...
The Guardian has rending, all of the Eldar troops have fricking RENDING! And we are not even talking about Battle Focus.

MEQ need to stay in the playground and play each other for balance.

The only problem I have with this.... is this falls apart at the start . SM tend to be better at duels and CSM are generally inferior to their loyalist brothers that for a single point get a zoo and a petting horse. And then there is the heldrake which really ruins this as this single unit has brought undying hatred to CSM for many with it being a tanky flyer that has a template that slaughters marines and can vector strike.

Anyways... another. I know there are worse units but I'll toss him out to point something... Yarrick. He's a badass. He's a cool character that has a fething ork power claw. The dude is crazy and even has his own personal baneblade! One problem... he doesn't bring much synergy to your army. He's a CC beatstick in an army that prefers to shoot and really doesn't bring any real buffs to your army.

What on earth are you comparing these units to?
I don't know if you're serious, or just joking, but I'll answer in all seriousness:

Devastators are underrated, and overshadowed by the new Centurion models that even can't do their job well enough. For SM players who use the Imperial Fists Chapter Tactics, they are a nice welcome to their defence lines because they're more dynamic and survivable. In addition, re-rolling failed glances/pens sounds a delight to heavy weapon squads. The group is larger than Dev-Cents, so they don't start running so quickly off the table, and can do the same work cheaper.
They lack twin-linked? Let's include Ordo Malleus Inquisitor there with Psyker level 1 with Prescience - 55 points more. Problem solved.

Martel732 wrote:
the Stormraven

Well, even though the quick nigh-unstoppable reign of Stormravens is over since their first release (and all the rage that came with it), it's still a decent flyer pick for anyone. An assault vehicle that can transport a Dreadnought, alongside with a bunch of dudes? AV12? Twin-linked hard-hitting arsenal? They do a diddely for even heavy targets, and pop Land Raiders, should they stay in the air long enough. I understand, that picking flyers nowadays has become a more careful business, due to increase in anti-air, but still: Stormraven it's NOT bad, far away from the worst. It's simply decent because of the same reason as the Vindicator: it's a massive fire magnet, and you need at least two of them to pull out a nice move.

Martel732 wrote:
assault marines

Well, if you wish to compare to BA Assault Marines, well yes, they are inferior. But seriously; even this unit got a nice buff in the latest codex, and are actually worth taking. Now that they're cheaper, have access to grav weapons and cheaper wargear in general, fielding a full squad with a melee-oriented HQ makes them effective objective cleaners.

Martel732 wrote:
tactical marines

What do you expect from Tactical Marines? They do their job well in this edition, and also served me as well. They're meant to be a "basic" choice for Troops, and to be decent at everything.

Martel732 wrote:
dreadnoughts

...Which are now actually worth taking - ESPECIALLY Venerable Dreads, since the +25pts Venerable upgrade is a steal nowadays. However, the only thing I miss is their lack of wielding dual-fists, but looks like BA snatched that option to themselves. Oh well, just a little note...

Martel732 wrote:
hunters

I've yet to meet a player who has said it sucks. So far my mates in my FLGS disagree with you.

Martel732 wrote:
and vanguards and this is what you come up with?

Also Vanguards got a nice boost when the pointcosts were reduced, and I use them in almost every second match. Have worked as expected till this day: butchered key targets, and countered Death Company with ease.

Seriously; Centurions are way too overrated and overcosted in points.

I'll take dev cents over any of those units, because unlike most of the units I listed, they can actually do a lot of damage.

Martel732 wrote:
I'll take dev cents over any of those units, because unlike most of the units I listed, they can actually do a lot of damage.

...And also be a massive attention magnet. Due to lack of decent close combat defensive capabilities, anything can tarpit them.

 Tigramans wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
I'll take dev cents over any of those units, because unlike most of the units I listed, they can actually do a lot of damage.

...And also be a massive attention magnet. Due to lack of decent close combat defensive capabilities, anything can tarpit them.

The marines suffer from a serious lack of firepower compared to Tau/Eldar even in the new codex. The grav cents offer a weapon system that Wave Serpents have to respect. Tiggy supported las/ml can do the trick as well, but I prefer Stormraven delivered grav cents with hurricane bolters. Keep them as cheap as possible.

The units I listed are mainly overcosted due to lack of offense, or in the case of the Raven, fragility for price.

The hunter is a total joke with only one shot. Your mates are wrong.

GoingtoHell wrote:

 lobbywatson wrote:
For Eldar its pretty easy. They have a few bums in the codex.
Elites
1. Howling Banshees Jesus H Christ they suck. No grenades 4+ armor and only AP3 weapons. Can't even kill characters and can't assault vehicles. They could but it'd be pointless.
2. Harlequins. No dedicated transport kills them. Well that and they suck.
Troops
1. Storm Guardians I see people play these and say to myself "you must be stupid, stupid, stupid...."
FA
1. Shining Spears god they are crappy too. 6" range you have to buy hit and run (Spiders get it free) basic PL is S6AP3 not exactly a devastating weapon there. Ohh and explain to me how a suicide unit works with a race going extinct.
2. Hemlock isn't that awful but you have to build around it and its soooooo situational.
Heavy
1. Falcon its actually decent but so many other BETTER choices in this slot.
2. Wraithlord not because its bad but Fire Prisms, Vauls HS guns, WK, Dark Reapers and War Walkers all give better value.

Codes CSM would fall and its knees and beg for some of the units you listed there...

XXXX

I'm really sorry for you then. Yikes. I mean they aren't all bad but they are the worst of Eldar and truly only two of them are worthless and unplayable. Banshees and Shining Spears.

Eldar do have some internal balance issues, but the choices are usually between decent/good units and OMGZ WHAT IS THIS DOING HERE? Yeah, banshees and spears suck, but compared to marines, they have far more quality across the board.

Martel732 wrote:

The marines suffer from a serious lack of firepower compared to Tau/Eldar even in the new codex. The grav cents offer a weapon system that Wave Serpents have to respect. Tiggy supported las/ml can do the trick as well, but I prefer Stormraven delivered grav cents with hurricane bolters. Keep them as cheap as possible.

The units I listed are mainly overcosted due to lack of offense, or in the case of the Raven, fragility for price.

The hunter is a total joke with only one shot. Your mates are wrong.

If you think Space Marines can play in the same league with Tau and Eldar... no... just no. Please don't do that comparison ever again.

Tigurius is too expensive for a simple Prescience trick, and exclusive to smurfs. Not worth it, unless you build your army around him.

Centurions inside a Stormraven? That's at least 400 points in a single spot, just waiting for that single flakk missile to deal a pen. Sounds really risky for a SM player. Also; Ork boyz won't take crap from grav weapons, for you'll wound 'em with 6+. Good luck with receiving a massive tarpit.

When it comes to Hunter's "only one shot"; don't forget that it's meant to annihilate the target with that one shot. S7 AP2 Armourbane hurts - a lot. If it misses, big deal, it hits in the REAR in next turn. I wouldn't call that a joke. I'd call it a threat.

Lack of offence? Play White Scars or Raven Guard. Heck, tons of T5 scoring bikers driving through rubble like they were nothing, coming to yoink your objectives is scary and it happens fast.
Personally, I play with IF detachment, and that makes us like day and night. I have no problems with regular dev-squads nor anything else you listed as crud. Instead of taking sluggish and expensive Centurions, fielding two Thunderfire cannons is cheaper and more efficient in the terms of firepower and flexibility - AND they reach further.

All codex sm

 Tigramans wrote:

Martel732 wrote:

The marines suffer from a serious lack of firepower compared to Tau/Eldar even in the new codex. The grav cents offer a weapon system that Wave Serpents have to respect. Tiggy supported las/ml can do the trick as well, but I prefer Stormraven delivered grav cents with hurricane bolters. Keep them as cheap as possible.

The units I listed are mainly overcosted due to lack of offense, or in the case of the Raven, fragility for price.

The hunter is a total joke with only one shot. Your mates are wrong.

If you think Space Marines can play in the same league with Tau and Eldar... no... just no. Please don't do that comparison ever again.

.

Well they fundamentally can beat Tau and Eldar lists. Bringing Tau and Eldar by no means guarantees victory and so that comparison is perfectly valid.

XXXX

 Tigramans wrote:
STR10 / AP2 will wipe 'em off the table.

No hard feelings, but IMO, this isn't what defines unit a bad one
Yeah, you had other points as well but seems rather amusing that you had this line in there

zilka86 wrote:
All codex sm

Really? Wow. The whole codex is terrible?

 Tigramans wrote:

Martel732 wrote:

The marines suffer from a serious lack of firepower compared to Tau/Eldar even in the new codex. The grav cents offer a weapon system that Wave Serpents have to respect. Tiggy supported las/ml can do the trick as well, but I prefer Stormraven delivered grav cents with hurricane bolters. Keep them as cheap as possible.

The units I listed are mainly overcosted due to lack of offense, or in the case of the Raven, fragility for price.

The hunter is a total joke with only one shot. Your mates are wrong.

Also; Ork boyz won't take crap from grav weapons, for you'll wound 'em with 6+

fielding two Thunderfire cannons is cheaper and more efficient in the terms of firepower and flexibility - AND they reach further.

I agree with all of your points but these two. Why are you bringing specialist armor/TEQ killers like Cents against something like the green tide? Or any swarm/horde list that can easily tarpit less-mobile shooty units. That is why we have the TFC. However against armies like Deathwing, GK and IG tank coys, I'm pretty sure either one of us would take las/ML cents over a pair of TFCs. My point being, both units have their place and are quite capable when used accordingly.

 ClassicCarraway wrote:

 hiveof_chimera wrote:
so no one agrees with me about some of the phoenix lords

most of the Phoenix Lords are pretty good beat sticks, and pretty survivable at that. Expensive, yes, but not overly so when compared to other named HQ for other armies. Baharroth is probably the weakest one of the bunch, and only just because he has an AP3 close combat weapon but his abilities and other wargear help alleviate this.

I'm referring to the lost, has no idea what he is doing maugan

For gk pretty much every unit can be a competitive choice depending how you build the army. The exception probably being the brother hood champion, good idea but the rules didtn really come off. He is the cheapest hq though if you want to play a "pure" gk army so hes still relatively useful.

While reading through this thread I would also like to point out another point. Certain troop choices have their place on a list. Many a time, do I see folks try to compare one unit to another unit strictly by the percentage chance of an expected casualty rate.

I use will Terminators as an example. They are an expensive unit to take points wise. But I like to take them anyways. Why? I take them to draw fire from other less durable units. Be it scoring units, or other more Gunhappy units.

So when choosing any unit for an army list, knowing what you want it to accomplish in the particular game that you are about to play is most important. If you do not know how to properly employ a specific unit. The odds are you will end up making a mistake in either that units initial deployment. Or when you move to attack with that unit, you might not choose the optimal target for said unit to attack.

Once again, "Results may vary"!

Mutilators. But worst War gear is the Dimensional key or what ever it is called.

 thepowerfulwill wrote:
Mutilators. But worst War gear is the Dimensional key or what ever it is called.

Oh man... That Dimensional Key lol

It's soooooooooooo bad......

If it were simply unlocked by killing an enemy model in general.... but in the fight sub-phase.... ugh....


I did the mistake of buying a box of Mutilators once.... Now they are Obliterators that got run over by a Land Raider

My point was, that grav weapons have a weakness that I abhor: it sucks against blob armies.

You can't always know who you're against - especially in lively gaming stores in capitols, like I tend to be now... and changing lists on the fly before match is for jerks.

@Soomemafia, I've constantly fought against armies that have such numbers. Those matches have left deep scars. Now that STR10 and AP2 is the new black and everyone's pumping 'em to their lists, you can imagine my face.

Well I hate to say it, but if you're looking for a jack of all trades unit, thst also performs against MEQ and blob lists with a high degree of efficiency I think you're gak outta luck with pretty much every SM unit sans Sternguard.

I suppose the social customs for my LGS is a bit different than yours. Setting up a pick up game usually goes as follows:

"Hey, what's up, man? I'm ****"

Around here you aren't expected to have one single TAC list. That's what tournaments are for. Folks are fine building a list to fight a specific army. Now if one person waits to see what the other brings, then changes his whole list to crush em, THAT is considered a dick move.

"Nice to meet you ****, I'm ***". You want to play a 40k game? "

"Hell yea, I've got my Marines with me"

" That's cool, I'm running IG, 1500 sound good?"

"Yea man, let me know when you have your list together. Ill show you mine, you show me yours and then we'll start setting up terrain"

"Lol sounds good ****"

For IG, the death strike is my least favorite. For GK, I think castellan crowe is the worst along with the brotherhood champ.

 stormcrow59 wrote:
For IG, the death strike is my least favorite. For GK, I think castellan crowe is the worst along with the brotherhood champ.

I'm actually very curious about the Death Strike. Why is it bad?

 MWHistorian wrote:

 stormcrow59 wrote:
For IG, the death strike is my least favorite. For GK, I think castellan crowe is the worst along with the brotherhood champ.

I'm actually very curious about the Death Strike. Why is it bad?

Because you have to devote a chunk of your army to protecting it in the odd event that it will fire. Wen it ever does and after its wasted a load of your units potential all game the result is usually lackluster and by far worse than the manticore that should have been where it is sitting firing every turn.

XXXX

Thanks for info on Hydra FAQ. I tried one in a 750 point game, then my friend's scythe mishap-ped to death. (Oh, surprise, surprise.). However, in a series of theoretical rolls, the Hydra would've shot the Scythe down unaided. I apologize to the Hydra for doubting it so.

 Inky wrote:
Flayed ones: Never really were outstanding, now even less so
Triarch Praetorians: They're just....expensive and do bugger all.
Dark Angels: Most new units. Specifically the Nephilim and the plasma based land speeder. Just disappointing.

The only really disappointing DA stuff were the Dark Talon and the Special Characters. The rest of the book is decent just a bit boring....except for the Black Knights, they are fantastic. Though I would agree that a lot of the DA stuff is overcosted.

As for the rest, well there are far too many "worthless" units out there. It's all really in who's playing them I think

 Barun Von Krump wrote:
... and the poor Flash Gitz don't get any love since the 5th edition.

You know there was a Codex Update / FAQ released April 2013? ... Among other things, Flash Gitz now ignore cover

GoingtoHell wrote:

 soomemafia wrote:

 chiefbigredman wrote:
Wraithguard and wraithblades are super expensive points wise for 5 models. Especially with d-sythes thats 200+ points for 5 models that aren't especially strong. I still use them though.

Expensive, but far away from "the worst unit in codex".

Their simply costed properly and that makes them uncompetitive. But there is no way you could describe them as bad.

I agree they aren't bad, just costly. I've been looking through the codex and don't see to many BAD units.
Have heard the jet is just mediocre and same with harlequins but not sure


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I just wish you could buy the d-sythes separately so you could have a mixed unit.
Someone was comparing wraithgguard with terminators and saying wraithgguard have access to wave serpents... Agreed wave serpents are solid but I'm talking about wg alone, foot slogging them would be difficult, for the 50 points worth of d-sythes you could get 3 jet bikes a what what
I caused a bit of a commotion there my bad