Ok gang! It's that time of year again, time for the ratskins to mass and kill all your dudes in a frenzy for presents, plates of delicious (and deadly!) christmas cookies for objectives, and rampaging Bloodcrushers!

For those who weren't here for the last one, get ready for another set of absolute nonsense scenarios like last year's "Phalanx of the Sugar-Plum Necrons", "Red Sleigh Down", and "They Never Let Poor Scz'phkk'ghb The Eater of Skulls, Devourer of Souls, Who Drinks From the Grinning Hellfathom Gourd of the Third Moon of Heran VI Join in All the BloodCrusher Games!"

In case you weren't aware by this point, the 40k Christmas tournament around here is NOT a serious, hard-nosed tournament! We'll be wearing santa hats and playing on tables bedecked in garlands and eating peppermint bark while our models romp through a winter nightmareland!

Bring 1850 points and be ready for a day of absolute Yuletide Carnage!

Entry is $10 like usual, and we'll be giving out all kinds of Holiday themed prizes!

Bonus points to anyone who brings Logan Claus on his merry wolf-drawn sleigh!

8:30ish - 9:30 - Set up and talk shop.
9:30am - 10:00 - check-in, sign-up, event preamble, pairings
10:00am - 12:15pm - Round 1
12:15 - 1:00 - Lunch
1:00 - 3:45 - Round 2
4:00 - 6:15 - Round 3
6:30 - Winners announced

Upcoming BIG Events:


2014 Monthly Schedule:

January 11th: RRT: COMPLETE
February 8th: RRT:Las Vegas Open Detox: COMPLETE
March 8th: Game Empire Championship Series event: "Beware The Ides of March": COMPLETE
April 12th: RRT: Total War Part I 1850 pts. COMPLETE
May 10th: Game Empire Championship Series event - Revenge of the Fluff: Part 2 The Re-Fluffing: COMPLETE
June 14th: RTT : COMPLETE
July 12th: Game RTT: COMPLETE
August 9th: RTT:COMPLETE
September 13th:RTT: COMPLETE
October 11th: RTT COMPLETE
November 8th: RTT COMPLETE
December 13th: RTT Holiday Madness!

Prize support will be awarded to Warmaster (Best Overall), Best Imperial, Best non-Imperial. Best Imperial and Best non-Imperial cannot be awarded to someone who also won the Warmaster or Best General awards. Armies that have allied contingents that are not both Imperial or both non-Imperial are not eligible for the best Imperial or non-Imperial awards.

Painting is Required to win BESET OVERALL. All other prizes, save Best Painted, can be won with out a fully painted army. There will also be a Best Army award to the player voted to have the best looking army at the event. In addition there will be a Sportsmen award and several silly awards for a few good laughs.

We are looking to make this the best year of gaming yet at Game Empire, so come on down and be a part of it!

I'll make about half of these as usual. I would suggest May for the GT. Also I would send a PM to Reecius and check if he has a tentative date yet for the 2014 BAO. We send a lot of guys up there for the BAO and wouldn't want our GT to get in the way of that. Plus I know he and the crew at Team Zero Comp would make every effort to come out to a GT run in Pasadena.

So, question:

Have you come to a conclusion on dataslates/escalation/stronghold? Juuust want to make sure I don't have to pack heat for a revenant or rather be caught off guard by one....

How about a voting post on all the new junk? LVO had this and people seemed to like it.

Are you doing the Kill Team events or will there be a second thread on that?

Are you doing a GT, or has that been shelved. I would say May or even June, many are in school and would like to have an event to bring in the summer break.

Will there be a discussion of terrain? Maybe a set of hyperlinks to the topics that relate to the events?

Ill be talking with Travis in person soon hopefully so I can get some more of the details regarding the GT. I like May as well. Ill be contacting Frontline about it after the Vegas Open. Im sure they are very busy with planning and logistics on that right now.

Dataslates are cool in the shop, Im 99% sure on that. Stronghold and Escalation are not being used in tournaments currently, though there might be an event or two that allows certain things to be taken. Those will be discussed well in advance.

Kill team events will happen, just not sure when and how yet. Like I said Im getting married next week so I dont have a ton of time right now. But I will get all the details ironed out.

Scenery is still in the air. Ive been researching some ways of getting some new stuff and I have a ton of foam in my truck to turn into rocky out croppings later this month. Again I cant act for the store since I do not work there. So I need to go over everything with Travis or Chuck.

Kinda disappointing that only painted armies can win ANYTHING. I mean I understand no grand prize or second place, but no awards for unpainted is pretty gakky for us who don't have a lot of time to paint...

Prime a model, paint the metal parts, drybrush the rest one color. That takes the whole of twenty seconds a model. I just tested it.

However Ill check and see if its only the top prize that requires painting. But try and get your stuff painted. I take commission if you want

I mean, I want to paint my models, Ill have an example of the finished product for the tourament, time is just crazy tight right now with 12 hour shifts and 6 day weeks on top of developing a game... I know, I know, no excuses, and I understand none of the top prizes, but we should at least get some chance to win our entry fee back!

 MikeFox wrote:
Prime a model, paint the metal parts, drybrush the rest one color. That takes the whole of twenty seconds a model. I just tested it.

However Ill check and see if its only the top prize that requires painting. But try and get your stuff painted. I take commission if you want

When we discussed and implemented the rule last year it was: The top prize (Best Overall) can only be won by a fully painted (3 Color Minimum) army. All other awards (Best General, Sportsman, etc.) can be won by anyone regardless of paint or lack thereof.

I think this is how it should stay.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 gameandwatch wrote:
I mean, I want to paint my models, Ill have an example of the finished product for the tourament, time is just crazy tight right now with 12 hour shifts and 6 day weeks on top of developing a game... I know, I know, no excuses, and I understand none of the top prizes, but we should at least get some chance to win our entry fee back!

Agreed, and if they keep the rule as it was from last year you will still be eligible for all prizes but the top prize.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 MikeFox wrote:
Prime a model, paint the metal parts, drybrush the rest one color. That takes the whole of twenty seconds a model. I just tested it.

However Ill check and see if its only the top prize that requires painting. But try and get your stuff painted. I take commission if you want

While true for you it may not be true for all players.

I agree with OverwatchCNC, you just can't win the top prize if you are unpainted. I have found that just about everyone comes with fully painted armies now. The other is rare. I also feel that the people that come are high in sportsmanship, that wasn't the case in the past. I do still see some crazy lists though. I do have to say they have never taken the top spot though. It will be interesting when the TO chimes in, all will be answered then.

I wasnt sure of the actual ruling. Ill change the rule in the first post right now.

I personally also prefer top prize only going to that which is painted, I think it cuts down on min-maxed armies and boosts sportsman ship. it certainly has made my first few events at GE very pleasant!

Having fully painted requirement doesnt deter min/maxing.I does limit the bandwagoners winning for a month or two but a terrible 1st grade paint job will still get the job done.

A first grade paint job very well will. And I rather play against Venom spam with some paint, then an army of grey plastic. The painting requirement for overall winner stands.

I wasnt saying it should be. I was just pointing out that you can do a terrible job painting it doesn't need to be well painted . I know I always want my models to look super good and spend extra time on each one but I could just go out and buy a can of spray paint ,boltgun metal, and a wash and be done with it in a day or less.

Someone say Venom spam? Cool I will be there

 azgrim wrote:
I wasnt saying it should be. I was just pointing out that you can do a terrible job painting it doesn't need to be well painted . I know I always want my models to look super good and spend extra time on each one but I could just go out and buy a can of spray paint ,boltgun metal, and a wash and be done with it in a day or less.

Hey man, you got the same technique as I usually employ ...

Takes me a year to paint anything and I paint all the time. Damn my OCD and all those pesky little details, makes for a pretty army though.

I'll be there! Need to prep for L.V.O cuz I'm gonna be able to go

First RTT was amazing as always. There were 18 players, which was great turn out. No 'nid players, the TO said they were all crying at home over their nerfed condex. I think we still need to play the thing before shouting foul. Top seat went to a Ultramarine list. I didn't get to play him this time, but he is a very fair player as was all the guys I played. I went 2-1, the highlight for me was playing a former GW employee. I have to say the guys I played were the best. We all had a blast and I heard no arguments at all. Lots of rules questions, but no disputes that I could see. Top painting went to a Dark Elder army that has a beautiful gradient of greens and reds. The scenarios really rocked. They were book missions with some great spice in extra points. I just wish the store would stock more product as I was having a hard time finding what I wanted, They will get it for me yes, but a need my fix man, come on.

What Sgt. Barker said.

For those following meta-shifts: A (not so) surprising amount of SM armies in attendance, including one earning Top Spot.

At least 7 SM, most vanilla, 2 Imperial Fists, with Drop Pods in many. Coulda been a BA list in there given the couple SRGs on one guy's model tray. Some Smart Car Fliers, too.
GK
Eldar (2 WK & Eldrad+DRs)
Necron + CSM (HellTurkey)
Tau - Heavy XV88s (top Xeno army)
IG - Leman Russes and fliers
DE - venoms & BeastM crew
Orks - (BattleWs)

... and I'm blanking on the rest (though I'm inclined to say lotsa power armor). As far as I recall, no daemon lists (no Screamer-Star!), SoB, DA, nor bugs, as Sgt. B. mentioned. Space Puppies might've been there.


Second punch-line on the -

 sgtpjbarker wrote:
No 'nid players, the TO said they were all crying at home over their nerfed condex.

comment:

"That's why GW is making the pages more resilient, almost laminated; to resist the tears of players reading them."

ba-dum-BUM!

Just to be sure, next tourny is on the 8th right?

Yup.

Haven't seen you around Overwatch, when you do plan on making it down?

 Dezstiny wrote:
Haven't seen you around Overwatch, when you do plan on making it down?

I am going to the Las Vegas Open so I probably won't be at the February tournament. I am aiming for March to be my first GE tournament of 2014. I usually make it to half the events each year.

Cool! i'll see you there if you want a practice match at paper comics or heroes, it's been a while since I've been there... so you don't have to go all the way down to Pasadena just hit me up

Well I'm glad to hear the first round of events went well. I was busy getting married in St. Thomas. But dont worry I had 2d6 in each of my cuff links in case I needed to roll any moral checks.

I updated the first post to reflect the February event. I understand that many of you will be tired from the LVO which I will be unable to attend this year. But if you want to come down for some less competitive play and some silly missions, this is the event for you! Hope to see you all there and I will be taking pictures of the events from now on as well to post here.

Congrats Mike!

Question, how do forge world units apply to the FOC and allies?

Example: If I have a tau list that is farsight enclaves allied with tau empire codex, but want to use something from the forgeworld taros campaign, which FOC would it apply to, the empire codex, farsight, or either?

 gameandwatch wrote:
Question, how do forge world units apply to the FOC and allies?

Example: If I have a tau list that is farsight enclaves allied with tau empire codex, but want to use something from the forgeworld taros campaign, which FOC would it apply to, the empire codex, farsight, or either?

I'm roughly 90% sure Farsight detachments cannot field Forgeworld units.

Someone just made a very good point, which I agree with, the forgeworld rules simply tell what area of codex : tau empire their units occupy, farsight detachments pull all of their unit choices from codex: tau empire, and farsight enclaves has 0 restrictions beyond being unable to field aun'va and shadowsun.

So because your unit choices are from codex tau empire, then RAW Taros campaign units are simply additions to that codex, and would be fieldable for an enclaves army.

First off I had the wrong dates set up for the February tournament. I listed the third weekend, the 15th as the date. That is wrong it is the 8th.

I REPEAT THE TOURAMENT IS ON FEB 8TH!!!!

And until I get official word from Travis, forgeworld units are not allowed at Game Empire tournaments unless specifically stated. And in this case they are not allowed.

Feel free to use FW models as stand ins for other models. Ill see how Travis feels about this at the tournament and maybe they will be allowed in the next RTT.

This is your one week reminder! Get your armies ready and dice hot, next Saturday is the February tournament.

To bad it is next weekend. I will be in Las Vegas with a lot of other people.

If it was on the 15th, then I would have come.

I can't make it either, I have to work. I am so bummed. Is there something going on next week, is that why It is on the 8th?

I will also be in Vegas that weekend for the LVO. Have a great tournament guys!

I'm out too.

So Mike won best painted, did Andy win? Who took best overall?

Jonathan took overall with his ultramarines/white scars, mike got best painted, I (Andy) took best xeno, and I forget the name of the gentleman who was best sport.
Both Jonathan and I were 3-0 so hopefully next time we get to throw down

 Tuff Love wrote:
I (Andy) took best xeno,

Bugs or Tau?

 Brothererekose wrote:

 Tuff Love wrote:
I (Andy) took best xeno,

Bugs or Tau?

I heard it was Taudar.

Yep it was taudar! super nasty list with 2 riptides, wraithknight, etc.

I (Jonathan) need more grav guns!

it wasn't THAT bad. pretty standard taudarish goodness. pay no attention to the man behind the curtain

 Tuff Love wrote:
it wasn't THAT bad. pretty standard taudarish goodness. pay no attention to the man behind the curtain

C'mon, post your list, Andy. Yeesh.

Or, are you afraid that you'll need every last advantage next rtt in March when I return?

I really like the sound of a rattling saber.

Do we know what the March 8th special event will be yet? Perhaps a no holds barred FW/Escalation/Stronghold blah blah blah event?

My guess is the Shamrock will be the theme, but I would like to suggest an Ides of March theme of killing certain marked figures or units.

Most likely something along the Ides of March for sure. However, would people be open to some Lord of War silliness? Im talking allowing for Escalation only! Here would be the rules;

1) Str. D is downgraded to S10, AP1, ignores cover
2) ANY LORD OF WAR UNIT MUST BE PAINTED
3)If you bring a Reverent, I get to slap you in the face

If you guys seem to be ok with it for THIS TOURNAMENT ONLY, as a way of testing everything out for the occasional inclusion in fun RTT's. This would not become a standard.

I would slightly prefer not just because it opens something of a can of worms with the escalation rules as well (aka all the warlord traits and whatnot). However it's only a slightly, i'd still come.

Were we to do escalation it seems like allowing non-experimental FW would be required, if only to give people some options when it comes to AA (since flying gargants/superheavy flyers remain extremly difficult to take down, even with those rules modifications).

Im perfectly happy with baneblades/all the ground stuff (obviosuly except the revenent) , I just wonder about superheavy flyers.

Also would we allow fortifications? while void shields go a long way to counter superheavies they also really hinder normal shooting too. So i dunno.

Like I said for this Im only looking at Escalation, no Strong Hold. Lets see how things work one expansion at a time.

FW still wouldnt be allowed as it is never allowed currently at GE tournaments. Only the units listed in the Escalation book, granted they are mostly from FW, would be allowed. This would allow people to taylor lists with the understanding that they might be going against super heavies.

As per fliers there are only three in the book, Thunderhawks, Sandsharks and Harridans. I dont know anyone who owns those models. And heck Id love to see one painted and on the field, even if it is vaporizing my grots....

 MikeFox wrote:
Like I said for this Im only looking at Escalation, no Strong Hold. Lets see how things work one expansion at a time.

FW still wouldnt be allowed as it is never allowed currently at GE tournaments. Only the units listed in the Escalation book, granted they are mostly from FW, would be allowed. This would allow people to taylor lists with the understanding that they might be going against super heavies.

As per fliers there are only three in the book, Thunderhawks, Sandsharks and Harridans. I dont know anyone who owns those models. And heck Id love to see one painted and on the field, even if it is vaporizing my grots....

If we are going to use the expansions then we should use them. No house ruling, nerfing, or banning. I see little point in "trying something out" if you aren't actually going to try it out.

I thought it would be more palatable that way. Im more then fine just playing good old normal 40k.

I think it needs to be played before making an changes. I would like to see what happens to seer stars and taudar with the inclusion of escalation, granted I also want normal tournaments too. I feel like with 12 events a year GE can afford to test the waters in ways most other stores can't.

Hmm, fair enough point about the flyers, and I agree with Mike about starting slow and trying it out. Hmm

 OverwatchCNC wrote:
I think it needs to be played before making an changes. I would like to see what happens to seer stars and taudar with the inclusion of escalation, granted I also want normal tournaments too.

So then you would be ok with just using Escalation, not both Escalation and Stronghold? And further more would you be ok with the requirement of a Lord of War being painted. And on that note any fortifications from Strong Hold when we try it out being painted as well?

 MikeFox wrote:

 OverwatchCNC wrote:
I think it needs to be played before making an changes. I would like to see what happens to seer stars and taudar with the inclusion of escalation, granted I also want normal tournaments too.

So then you would be ok with just using Escalation, not both Escalation and Stronghold? And further more would you be ok with the requirement of a Lord of War being painted. And on that note any fortifications from Strong Hold when we try it out being painted as well?

Yes to all the above. However I have been thinking maybe one of the "special" events isn't the place to try out escalation, maybe the April event? March could be cool to have missions where you get extra VPs for every character killed, 2 extra VPs for HQs, and 5 extra VPs for a warlord!?

Fair enough. Ill start working on some missions with the focus on the Ides of March. Get ready for Traitors, Assassinations, and the fall of the mighty!

April will be our test run of Escalation.

 MikeFox wrote:

3)If you bring a Reverent, I get to slap you in the face

So you have something against Reverents? Maybe you should go to confession... J/K.

 MikeFox wrote:
Fair enough. Ill start working on some missions with the focus on the Ides of March. Get ready for Traitors, Assassinations, and the fall of the mighty!

April will be our test run of Escalation.

I have some ideas for cool missions. Do you use google drive? We could work on a few shared documents together to make missions, let me know if that interests you.

So here is the overview of the March tournament.

1750 pt. RTT on March 8th "Beware The Ides of March"

Come on down for a tournament focusing on Assassinations, Betrayal, and the fall of Empires. Themed mission for the day will be played with adjusted point values to focus on the perils of being in High Command in the 40th millennia. So grab some bodyguards, fire up your refractor shield, and pray the dice gods are in your favor. Et Tu Brute?

Just a curiousity - why am I to be wary of the thirteenth or fifteenth of march if the tournament would take place on the eighth?

 Scipio Africanus wrote:
Just a curiousity - why am I to be wary of the thirteenth or fifteenth of march if the tournament would take place on the eighth?

Remember, the calendar was still being adjusted until, like, Pope Greg or something. The 8th might just be the right day.

Id host the RTT on the 13th, but i dont think an all day 40k tournament would go over well on a Thursday.

Plus in the far future some servator mistakenly translated the 13th of March as the 8th of March. So now the Ides will be on the 8th starting in the year 38,957.2, you know Pre heresy and such

I'm not a big fan of super heavies mainly because of the D, but if you are wanting to use them you should look at bring Stronghold along with it as void shield are a good counter to having your whole army disappear on a 2+. If you want to try new units out starting with FW seems to be more balanced than escalation. Keeping players who did not bring the new toys able to enjoy themselves as apposed getting tabled in two rounds of shooting

On the topic of Escalation/Stronghold, I am all for testing them out, but in my mind if we're going to try an escalation "month" in April, then a couple of things need to be taken into account:

1. Pair way down the silly antics we have all come to love. If you're going to test player response and power level of the Escalation units, then test them baseline without extra variables thrown in. While I absolutely love the antics we all know, evaluating something for standard play should be done as simply as possible, which brings us to point 2.

2. Don't change any rules. If you throw yet another variable into the mix by making D str10ap1 ignores cover or something, then you aren't really evaluating anything but the house rules. I completely believe D will be a problem, but we want to be able to say we tested it as it was intended before we change anything, so we have experience to back up decisions.

3. Also allow in stronghold. It definitely appears the 2 supplements were meant to go together, and without void shield things can become every silly very quickly. likewise void shields without D/super heavies can be broken in its own right. Also, by doing both at once, you can have one month of solid testing rather than 2 of half testing. And if it all turns out sour grapes, then you did it only for a month, like ripping off a bandaid rather than slowly peeling it off.

All in all, I definitely think this is something we need to check out, it's been a looming question with these tournies, along with formations and FW, and get definite answers rather than "we still thinking about it, so no for now" would be awesome.

I definitely dig the theme of the next tournament, but have to lean on the side of no escalation. I've never been a fan of titans or apoc, and a smaller 40k game with titans personally does not interest me.

The missions last tournament were fun, I only think the second one was a little "meh". Once again personal feelings, but i don't like when mission rules forceably restructure a well thought out list, or in general, force units to rearrange.

Just my 2 cents, but i will say the next one sounds really interesting!

I am a no vote on adding the supplements, escalation and stronghold. The fact that GW has solutions for some and not others really bothers me. The kits are really high priced and are not available for all armies. I would like those types of games to remain fun games off calendar. Just my two cents.

 sgtpjbarker wrote:
I am a no vote on adding the supplements, escalation and stronghold. Just my two cents.

Again this would be only for one event. We'll talk more about it here, Ill chat with Travis about it and regardless it wouldnt impact the March tournament

I wouldn't mind seeing one "all-in" event at Game Empire just to test the waters.

I have a sneaking suspicion it'll just be a regular tournament where everybody spends 100-300 points on Void Shields and you have maybe two people who actually bring escalation units. Might actually see more diverse armies, as stronghold rules enable more of the "weaker" armies in traditional meta.

I'm planning on attending the March RTT as well. The exact army will depend on how fast I can paint things.

I am in for the Ides of March. I need to decide what to play though, Iyanden Eldar or actually finish painting the "new" Nurgle Daemon army that I have been neglecting... There is no chance my White Scars will be tournament worthy by then!


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Loch wrote:
I wouldn't mind seeing one "all-in" event at Game Empire just to test the waters.

I have a sneaking suspicion it'll just be a regular tournament where everybody spends 100-300 points on Void Shields and you have maybe two people who actually bring escalation units. Might actually see more diverse armies, as stronghold rules enable more of the "weaker" armies in traditional meta.

I'm planning on attending the March RTT as well. The exact army will depend on how fast I can paint things.

I think testing the waters would be good as well. The LVO showed me that there is a need for some sort of counter to Seerstar/Beaststar.

Like Stompas!!!!

 MikeFox wrote:
Like Stompas!!!!

And Revenants!

Stompa on Revenant action. Why are we not doing this?

The Mega kits are rolling out, the game is going to change boys.

 sgtpjbarker wrote:
The Mega kits are rolling out, the game is going to change boys.

these?

http://www.games-workshop.com/gws/catalog/armySubUnitCatsLarge.jsp?catId=cat440160a&rootCatGameStyle=wh40k

By change you mean Ill still be running 90 boys and a Stompa. BRING IT!

This looks like its gonna be a fun one! With all the new gak GW has been throwing at us any army (except BA) could win it!

Sorry if this has been mentioned already but I failed to find it, for the march 8th tournament could someone clarify for me weather or not escalation and all of that jazz will be being played? Or if it's just a "normal" 40K tourney

This would be the deciding factor for me on marking that day in my calendar.. Haha

March is set to be "normal" meaning no escalation, stronghold, or FW. They are kicking around the idea of a "total war" tournament for the future but not the March event.

^ awesome.
Thanks a lot!

Yes just to clarify to everyone the March tournament is as follows:

-No forgeworld; though forgeworld models as proxies are welcome and suggested

-No Stronghold/Escalation

- Missions will be slightly modified book missions, so be ready for some silliness.

-Fun is mandatory and will be strictly enforced!

 MikeFox wrote:
Yes just to clarify to everyone the March tournament is as follows:

-No forgeworld; though forgeworld models as proxies are welcome and suggested

-No Stronghold/Escalation

- Missions will be slightly modified book missions, so be ready for some silliness.

-Fun is mandatory and will be strictly enforced!

I'll be damned if I will let anyone force me to have fun! On a serious note, who is going to tell Andy

The crow bar in my trunk, affectionally named Turn 7, will dispense the fun to anyone who fail to meet my standards.

Fun?! What's that? I've heard that it tastes like the tears of my opponents so I keep trying.

 Tuff Love wrote:
Fun?! What's that? I've heard that it tastes like the tears of my opponents so I keep trying.

Will you be there Saturday?

Not sure yet, depends on how my GMAT studying goes during the week and how the baby is doing.
But if I do I may bring a new IG/Inq list that I've been working on for funzies, a little change of pace from Taudar

For those of you who don't use Facebook Game Empire ruled that for this event Knights won't be allowed. Here is a link.

https://www.facebook.com/events/1465951536952844/

Travis is going to consider them for the April event.

Ok people only 2 more days until the March event. I want to see everyone get there backstabbing stabbers sharpened.

ALSO I changed around some of the events on the calendar to make way for a much bigger event in the works. So the Fluffy tourny and the 'Ard Boy style tourny have been moved up. Please consult the first page for changed dates.

ALSO ALSO; April will be a full war event. So Escalation, Strong Hold Assault, and Codex: Knight (not) Titans will be in play. Everything by the book, no tweaks to anything.

Cheat sheets will be printed so everyone can see the super heavy rules. Also additional rule clarifications to come in regards to base sizes for some fortifications.

BE AWARE: ALL SUPER HEAVIES MUST BE PAINTED AND MODELED ACCORDINGLY TO PLAY WITH THEM. NO PROXIES UNLESS THEY PASS THE RULE OF COOL TEST WITH ME. So if you have a questionable unit let me know and we can figure out if it is good to play in this tournament.

How should I model my 3 void shield generators Mike?

I said I'd update with relevant information when I can damn it, lol.

VOID SHEILDS can only be modeled to a maximum size of 4'' square and 5 inch tall. If your model is taller that's ok, but the effect range be measured off of 5'' above the ground NOT the top of your model.

Next.

How many points are the regular RTTs again?

 Blackmoor wrote:
How many points are the regular RTTs again?

1750 is the new standard at the store.

All events unless otherwise noted are 1750

Two unusual things happened at this tourney.

I won my Round 1.

I didn't have any broken models by day's end.

Even more unusual, I won Best Sportsman. Am I getting that soft and fun to play against?

I was home with children.

How many came, what were the missions, who won best painted that they could beat Mike, and who won with what army?

Mike and Casey, what excitement was there to be had?

17 guys.

Mission 1: Crusade/Dawn of War.
Special: On your turn, roll. On a 1 or 2, Warlords have to head for each other in a h2h grudge match. I had a XV8 Cmdr and Tony had The Great Uncleaned one. I made all my "Keep Your Cool" checks and did not heedlessly head into danger.

Mission 2: Purge the Alien/Hammer&Anvil.
Special goofery:
Swap a traitor. Give the enemy an Elite model (or FA, then HS, etc). Worth 3 total VPs in a Purge the Alien mission. Chris T gave me an IG psycher, who, without his other 9 buddies, was useless. Chris got a Helios suit from me, but under utilized him.

Mission 3: Big Guns/Vanguard
Hysterical Heresy (my name for it). Every shooting phase, each unit takes a leadership check. If failed, opponent gets to have your unit shoot nearest friendly. If that unit was within 12" of the Warlord, you could use IG's Summary Execution to keep the unit in line.

I failed 10 leadership tests during that match. I didn't have to get shot much by my own crew as I had spread them out (with Outflank and such) but, it made for 10 "do-nothing" opportunites.

I will make sure to ask for a grudge-match challenge in the next tourney. I've now lost to Jay T. three times.

Jonathan is now the 3 time champion for 2014. Grav bikes and drop pods.
MikeFox was Best Sport. He had some IG and SW.
Rex's florescent eldar for Best Paint.
Travis found another Flames of War rule book and gave it to Tony for a Wooden Spoon.
Alex D's daemon crew won Best Xeno performance (his first time at G.E.).
... and Best Imperial escapes me.

Thanks for the update. Will try and make the next one, but Middle School years are hell.

 sgtpjbarker wrote:
Thanks for the update. Will try and make the next one, but Middle School years are hell.

True-dat.

3.5 years after leaving MS, I still smell like brimstone.

Yeah it went well. I'll be more interested in see what people bring next month. My Baneblade is already painted up and weathered. Just need to finish orkifing my Vengeance batteries I got yesterday. I'm bring everything; Super heavy, fortification, and allies. Be ready for some silly!

I'd say the tournament was largely a ton of fun, the last mission special rule was kinda bleh though. Not fun when you fail 16 LD tests in 4 turns... I basically did nothing all game.

So.... questions for next month that you miiiiiight want to think about now... due to the.... vagueness that is GW.

1. Say a unit of warp spiders score 5 hits on a unit of marines under 1 layer of void shield. If the first hit is a 6, and thus pops the void shield, do the other 4 shots go on to hit the marines? What if there's 3 layers? Do the subsequent shots go on to try and take down the other layers?

2. Say we go with any hits leftover after a void shield layer goes down does indeed get allocated inside the (now downed) shield, how do blasts work? Do blasts only score 1 hit while the void shield is up (on the shield layer itself) or do you get as many hits as you normally would under the template and just roll each hit seperately, ala above?

Also, while it was fun and all to have shenanigans this last tourney, we should probably think about not having quite as many shenanigans this coming month, since the whole event is testing and shenanigans enough. You don't want to skew the test for whether these things will be allowed all the time to be tainted with say having to swap super heavies or fortifications with your opponent.

The way I have interpreted things is that for both blasts/normal you get the number of hits as normal as if the shield wasnt there.

So blasts would still be centered on whatever you shot at, generating however many hits it normally would..

Then the shield takes those hits until it goes down, at which point you can go after the main reactor and all subsequent hits are handled as normal.

Seems to make the most sense/least amount of silly.

Also that just made me think of an apoc scenario recreating ep VI where a kill team on one table is attempting to take down the shield reactor protecting some uber cannon on the apoc table... could be fun.

Both questions are very good. Ill double check them with Travis tomorrow night for clarification.

As for missions they will be very toned down. Basic missions with super minor tweaks. No crazy special rules or anything. One might involve Lord of War units arriving on turn two instead of one, another with a randomly placed relic. I'm still mussing.

And to you Game and Watch, when I wrote the mission you rolled a d6 and on a 1 you had to shoot the closest friendly unit. Travis changed it to a LD test, sorry you didnt have any fun with that game. Ill take that into consideration for future silly missions.

I would also be careful with say having the SHs have to come in second turn if they exist. That cause all kinds of ruckus, like pod armies having nearly nothing to shoot at/the thing they were brought to shoot at, or the player being tabled way too easily because they only had 4 units on the board to start with.

Its a rule straight from the Escalation book and one of the draw backs of taking 900 pts in a single model. It will be up to Travis in the end. But I dont think thats a bad thing. Ive played in Super Heavy Tournaments before and that rule worked fine. But your concern has been noted and will be taken into consideration.

Nevermind, not funny enough.

 MikeFox wrote:
And to you Game and Watch, when I wrote the mission you rolled a d6 and on a 1 you had to shoot the closest friendly unit. Travis changed it to a LD test, sorry you didnt have any fun with that game. Ill take that into consideration for future silly missions.

Not a huge deal, and it certainly didn't help that most of my army was low LD (and by low I mean majority LD7), but hmm... I don't know if yours would be better or worse, probably better for me worse for the higher leadership armies.

Otherwise though the tournament was a blast, it was great to see new people and new armies!

Just a last bit, I guess the only other complaint I would have is we (the group as a whole) were having trouble finishing games, and that rule was definitely slowing the game down... Just something to think about!

I'm confused. Where in the Escalation book does it say Lords of War must come in on turn 2?

Also Mike, you may want to clarify the painting and modeling requirements (if there are any) for the Lords of War.

Its not a universal rule, its a special rule for one of the missions in the book. And agreed extra mission rules have been bogging down play so Ill scale them back in the future.

Escalation Mission 5 I think. Impending Doom or something like that; any Lord of War units start in reserve and arrive turn 2 with no rolling. I figure they are stuck at the drive through. We can play test that idea tonight if you want.


First post has been updated to reflect and Ill state it again here.

LORD OF WAR UNITS/FORTIFICATIONS: Must be painted to a 3 color minimal standard. In addition there will be no proxy models allowed; so no Guandum Revanent Titans. All models must be WYSIWYG with there weapons. If you have a scratchbuild model it must pass approval from Travis first, so send me an image of it that I can show him.

This is what I was planning on using for my void shield generator:

Size wise it's pretty much bang on 4x4x4 (i think its 4.5x4x4)

There is much win with that. Can not wait to see this painted and in play. Mines going to be based on a Vengeance weapons platform.

ALSO THE EVENT HAD BEEN BUMPED TO 1850 POINTS.

In regards to the Void Shield being shot at; Travis will be doing more research into it this week. But preliminary thoughts are blasts count as one hit, regardless to how many models would be under the template. Also if there are extra shots after the void shield goes down, ie 4 auto cannon shots pen and knock down 3 void shields, the left over shots are discarded. Again there will be an official ruling from Travis before the tournament.

Less then one week people. I want to see some painted Super heavies here.

So Casey and I just played a test game. I had a Knight and BaneBlade against his deep striking Tau suit army with dual Void Shields.

And let me tell you double void shields is very hard on shooting armies. When the two buildings are in 12'' of each other you have to take down 6 AV12 walls. So everyone be aware that you might want to have a bunch of high volume, medium STR weapons. Or drop pod in.

I lost but when super heavies blow up, they take a lot with them.

 MikeFox wrote:
Less then one week people. I want to see some painted Super heavies here.

So Casey and I just played a test game. I had a Knight and BaneBlade against his deep striking Tau suit army with dual Void Shields.

And let me tell you double void shields is very hard on shooting armies. When the two buildings are in 12'' of each other you have to take down 6 AV12 walls. So everyone be aware that you might want to have a bunch of high volume, medium STR weapons. Or drop pod in.

I lost but when super heavies blow up, they take a lot with them.

You may want to check the FAQ on Void Shields, I don't have the link at handy work right now, but I am pretty sure GW clarified that the Void Shields come from a single generator but you purchase extra shields. I think. I will check when I have better access to the materials.

I believe its a generator gets up to 3 shields, so he has 2 generators for 6 shields total.

Also for next month's fluff campaign can we allow FW? I, at least, plan on going all out vehicles, no grav in sight, and would love to have my mortis contemptor get in on the action.

Yeah casey had 2 genis each with 3 shields. Its a pain in the ass to deal with.

 MikeFox wrote:
Yeah casey had 2 genis each with 3 shields. Its a pain in the ass to deal with.

Dirt cheap in points, too.

Castling will take on new meaning.

How did he fit in 2 gens? Don't you only get 1 fortification slot at under 2k? I thought the only way to get 2 gens is with the void shield array relay thing that has 3 gens and the promethium pipe.

With the relay you can take 0-3 shields

Nifty, tell me he had a line of torrent firing crisis suits with flamers at least, cause that would be HILARIOUS.

I may make the fluffy event. Not sure if Iyanden Eldar or Thokt Necrons with Monolith would be best..

This was fun. 10 guys with a good spread of armies.

Rex brought a RTT era Eldar Revenant Titan.
Adam S. brought a WarHound with 3 Imp. Knights. That was his whole army.
Tim had the Transcendent C'Tan ( broken! ) with 3 annihilation barges and 3 Croissants.
MikeFox had a HellHammer (BaneBlade) and a Imp Knight with assorted orks and IG.
There were around 4 or 5 armies without Super-Heavies, mine (Tau/IG), Jonathan's, Nick L had some well painted Marines. There was another Tau. I think Chris just had a normal Mech-IG list.

Most games were really short and lopsided.

Still fun though. Results :

Jonathan continues to take the whole thing. Gravguns (or was it meltaguns?), bikes and Drop Pods. I didn't get to look at his army but I don't think he brought Esc/Stronghold stuff. He beat Tim's Tranny-C'Tan for top spot.
Chris T took best Imperial with his IG.
MikeFox's Imp Knight to orky conversion garnered enough admiration for Best Paint.
Best Xeno ... okay I already forgot. Maybe the other tau guy.
Best Sportsmanship was me. With 18 Fusion Blasters. As Lucifer from Constantine said, "There's no accounting for taste."


...

"Tranny-C'Tan" - can we now call it Dr. Frank n Furter?

Ahem *cough* I believe Dr. Frank n Furter and his many croissants won best xenos.

pleasantnoodles wrote:
Ahem *cough* I believe Dr. Frank n Furter and his many croissants won best xenos.

... amazingly, I can't think of a line from the movie that would be witty enough a reply. Well done, sir. Well done!

I did in fact have an VSG from stronghold.

the list was basically:

White Scars Main:

khan
4x5 grav bikes with grav/combi grav

2 storm talons

UM ally:
level 2 pskyer

2x5 marine melta pods (melta, combi melta)
1 command squad with 5 melta guns

Devastator squad with 4 lascannons

Inqusition:
Coteaz

Stronghold:
VSG with 3 void shields

admittedly the VSG didnt really end up coming into play much but it was still there as backup.

I'd like to thank everyone for helping to prove how silly D weapons can be. Hope you had a great time. Here is a briefing of the next tournament. There will be themed missions to reflect the fluff. Nothing as crazy as it has been, I promise.



Ok everyone now that we got our fill of D weapons, void shields, and our new patent pending paint stick 15'' blasts; lets go to the extreme opposite side of the spectrum. FLUFF!!!

Way back when, people used to play wargame for fun! I know right since when are tournaments not for running unpainted cheesy armies based on the OP flavor of the month. But this time we are going to focus on the fluff bunnies that secretly hide in us all. To turn the tables the Best Over All prize will be 50% based on your army presentation. So lets see the best painted figures you have, even if they arn't the best rule wise. That means Ogryn bum rushing Chaos Marines, Burna Boyz cripifing Sisters of Battle, and Centurions being.... well Centurions.

So please don't bring your WAAC lists. This event will be back to 1750 pts. So if you feel like you got the brush skillz to throw it down with me and Paul; BE THERE. You wouldn't want to miss ork looted tyranids would you?

Also how do you people feel about a Highlander Style tournament in June? Where you can only bring on of each entry in your book.

 MikeFox wrote:
Also how do you people feel about a Highlander Style tournament in June? Where you can only bring on of each entry in your book.

Highlanders are cool only if the missions are balanced against books that have tons of troop choices available. Only having two scoring units as Necrons or DE sucks in traditional 3-6 objective games. So maybe more of an emphasis towards Big Guns or Scouring to keep things even?

Also keep in mind that Higlander format just pushes Deathstar 40k even harder than traditional meta.

And what about people who want to play Knights?

There would be exceptions. Sisters of Battle only have one troop choice too if I recall. And I'm just sending out feelers.

Barely anyone plays death stars at GE. I could always bring down a full 12 man, double biker boss Nob star.

 Loch wrote:
Highlanders are cool only if the missions are balanced against books that have tons of troop choices available. Only having two scoring units as Necrons or DE sucks in traditional 3-6 objective games.

Answer: Allies

With Allies you can pretty much be sure to have 4 troop choices in your Highlander list (yeah, yeah, SoB is an exception, whatevs), but that ought to make it do-able.

 MikeFox wrote:
Barely anyone plays death stars at GE.

At least since that Ian guy hasn't played with his DE/Eldar Jetstar ...

Oh, wait that's you, huh, Ian?

Anyway, you usually have Kabalites & Wracks, Jetbikes & some DAs. Highlander really just sticks it to the venom spam. Time to break out the NightSpinner again.

Seriously, Mike, as usual, I'm on board with a Highlander gig.

Highlander is less of a big deal at 1,500. The main victims are 2+ stars, and sm bike lists. IG and Eldar are in great shape.

DE can't go full msu venom spam, but they can have a few with 1 warrior, 1 wych, and 1 wracks for troops then 1 trueborn and 1 bloodbride in elites. Can 3 grotesques take a venom? Anyhow just burn the leftover points on a beast pack, baron, and Eldar allies.

I think a good solution to low troop codex is to allow allies to go past the 2 foc limit on troops as long as both dexes don't exceed 8 troops. Also allow AS to field 1 unit of sisters 10 or less and a 2nd that is 11+ models.

I'm in for highlander, that would be interesting to work with.

If you do highlander, my suggestion (based on experience) is to make Elite choices scoring. Not every army has a good amount of troop choices, but all of the ones with limited choices have diverse elites options. And with highlander in place, people will not be able to spam a bunch of power elites, either.

 Phazael wrote:
If you do highlander, my suggestion (based on experience) is to make Elite choices scoring. Not every army has a good amount of troop choices, but all of the ones with limited choices have diverse elites options. And with highlander in place, people will not be able to spam a bunch of power elites, either.

Nice contribution, Q. That opens things up.

 Brothererekose wrote:

 Phazael wrote:
If you do highlander, my suggestion (based on experience) is to make Elite choices scoring. Not every army has a good amount of troop choices, but all of the ones with limited choices have diverse elites options. And with highlander in place, people will not be able to spam a bunch of power elites, either.

Nice contribution, Q. That opens things up.

Make elite scoring for 2 objective/d3+2 objective mission and HQ scoring for the relic.

Big guns and scouring are fine with the heavy/fa.

While everyone else is going for paint and fluff, I'm going to bring in some trumped up, hackneyed drivel about Santhonyx rubbing elbows with a seer counsel to earn some snobbery points with his air-surfcat peeps back in Commorragh, while 4 rookie drivers are given sky tank flight time.

I'm bringing the LVO Winning list, kids. Suck it.

PS:
What the 5 kablites are doing there, *without* their sky-boards is beyond me. Witnesses to state that, "Yeah, the Baron knows some *legit* eldar" ?

PPS:
Post also functions as Bump!

Oh yeah, well thankfully I'm waiting to bring my 4 riptides and compulsary O'vessa star until next month., so yay for not clashing the stars together.

Since this is rapidly approaching, wanted a Game Empire ruling on somethin':

Im trying out the Firebase Formation for tau, and my question is... is the riptide in the firebase formation considered SEPARATE from the rest of the army, and therefore doesnt have access to special issue systems in the case of Farsight Enclaves? Or since Farsight Enclaves uses the codex tau rules, but simply replaces all of the signature systems with Farsight ones, that makes the riptide able to access them?

Not sure how this is supposed to go...

 gameandwatch wrote:
Since this is rapidly approaching, wanted a Game Empire ruling on somethin':

Im trying out the Firebase Formation for tau, and my question is... is the riptide in the firebase formation considered SEPARATE from the rest of the army, and therefore doesnt have access to special issue systems in the case of Farsight Enclaves? Or since Farsight Enclaves uses the codex tau rules, but simply replaces all of the signature systems with Farsight ones, that makes the riptide able to access them?

Not sure how this is supposed to go...

Try getting the TO on the FaceBook for Game Empire:

https://www.facebook.com/events/1410711012537841/

Or, even call the store and ask for Travis.

Are we even allowing formations now? If so I gots me some nids to dust off....

pleasantnoodles wrote:
Are we even allowing formations now? If so I gots me some nids to dust off....

Again, check with the TO via Game Empire direct (I would call GE).

Sorry, but I am a bear of very little brain, (I will lose 2 games despite the LVO jetstar list) and I can't remember what's allowed, and won't say what I dunno for sure.

I was not able to make it to this one. I got sick at the last minute. :(

Results? My guess is Levi's Imp.Fists.

Nope. Drew a game to a great eldar player by giving me too many scoring units to deal with, Got Tabled by crazy Tau Formations list (Missed 3 crucial charges by 1-2 inches that would have made it a lot closer game), and Tabled a fluffy Blood angles player that had too many expensive toys in his list. 1-1-1 but I got best sportmanship which was cool cause I had a really fun day at the "not really that fluffy fluff tournament". All fluff went out the window when the 7th news dropped so Formations, Forgeworld, Battle brother wackiness, and only 1 fully painted army. Kinda sums up 6th huh?

I saw Jonathan there, (FaceBook pix) and I thought his WhiteScars army was fully painted.

Darn. My army is fully painted (and a carbon copy of the LVO list, so yeah, Levi, not so fluffy ) so maybe I coulda ... naw, I had no chance.

Jay, the eldar player (if I guess correctly) has beaten me 3 times. If I'd have showed up, I woulda asked Travis to arrange a grudge match.

Carlos, the BA player, likes fluffy. Cool guy.

Dunno who was playing tau as I didn't see Andrew in the FaceBook pix.

Still kids, can someone post the results?

Results were:

Jonathon won best army with Iron Hands (only fully painted)
I (Tim) went 2-1 with O'vessa Utramarines 7 drop pod list went 3-0 for best overall
Andrew brought formation of Tau
Carlos brought 4 knights and went 2-1 i believe.
We know about Imp. Fists.
David with BA got tabled 3 times, ouch.

pleasantnoodles wrote:
Results were:
I (Tim) went 2-1 with O'vessa Utramarines 7 drop pod list went 3-0 for best overall

2 and 1 and then 3-0 ? I'm confused.

Who was the 7 Drop Podder?

Carlos was not BA, okay, my bad.

Didn't I see Adam Solis? He didn't bring his Imperial Knights? Huh.

Thanks, Tim.

Jonathan was best army marines

carlos best overall pod marines

dunno other stuff, adam had quad knights

So new information is TBA for the next tournament since there this whole new rulese thing. Any ideas on what you might want to do? Maybe a learners game day where everyone can learnt he rules together and still play 3 games. Perhaps back at 1500pts.

I would say since the rules will only be out 2 weeks or so, and decisions will likely not have happened on unbound, lords of war with new D, and such, that we should just do 6e to give time to remove confusion before the event even starts. That and even at 1500, with new rules we still likely won't complete games. Time is needed to digest it first.

Spend that time polling and discussing what will be allowed/unallowed going forward and implement that the month after.

MikeFox wrote:So new information is TBA for the next tournament since there this whole new rulese thing. Any ideas on what you might want to do? Maybe a learners game day where everyone can learnt he rules together and still play 3 games. Perhaps back at 1500pts.

pleasantnoodles wrote:I would say since the rules will only be out 2 weeks or so, and decisions will likely not have happened on unbound, lords of war with new D, and such, that we should just do 6e to give time to remove confusion before the event even starts. That and even at 1500, with new rules we still likely won't complete games. Time is needed to digest it first.

Spend that time polling and discussing what will be allowed/unallowed going forward and implement that the month after.

While I am not likely to attend, I most certainly would not attend if 6th edition were still being played. I have no interest in playing 6th edition, if a new ruleset is out I think the stores 40k Saturday should be devoted to learning the new rules not wallowing in those of a broken and failed edition. Just my $.02, look forward with events not backwards, even if that means it isn't an official "tournament".

I mean, I am looking forward to 7e, but that means that Travis needs to decide on:

1. We using the new mission cards?
2. Are unbound armies allowed?
3. Are LoWs allowed?
4. Can we bring formations?
5. Are we using maelstrom or the old missions? or both?

With a new editions brings new decisions. We could do an all in type of deal for 7e and just see what happens, but we would need to be okay with some confusion definitely. I'm in either way of course.

pleasantnoodles wrote:
I mean, I am looking forward to 7e, but that means that Travis needs to decide on:

1. We using the new mission cards?
2. Are unbound armies allowed?
3. Are LoWs allowed?
4. Can we bring formations?
5. Are we using maelstrom or the old missions? or both?

With a new editions brings new decisions. We could do an all in type of deal for 7e and just see what happens, but we would need to be okay with some confusion definitely. I'm in either way of course.

He only needs to decide those things if you run an actual tournament. If you do, like we did for 6th, a learning day where you will be guaranteed games and some fun prizes but no strict structure then he need not do any of that. I think that is more what Mike has in mind than an actual full blown tournament.

I mean true, but then again this is the Game Empire Tournament Series

 OverwatchCNC wrote:
While I am not likely to attend, I most certainly would not attend if 6th edition were still being played. I have no interest in playing 6th edition, if a new ruleset is out I think the stores 40k Saturday should be devoted to learning the new rules not wallowing in those of a broken and failed edition. Just my $.02, look forward with events not backwards, even if that means it isn't an official "tournament".

As you know, I'm not real good at zingers and bon mots, but this post needs to be addressed, so I'll put down a few phrases and pieces, and John, you can cobble 'em together to make something coherent.

- want some cheese & crackers with your whine?
- sour grapes
- Not winning tourneys for your last umpteen appearances doesn't mean there's much wrong with the current edition
- ModelsWorkshop is a wonderful rules-writing company that makes meh models
- you really (rage) quit cause I started playing more and you were afraid of the curb stomping and Victory Dance I would do to you, had we matched
- Darrian, Andy & you. It's not the game, it's the playah's family status (as in Al & Peg Bundy syndrome).

... and that's all I got for now.

Casey, really...

Anyhow

I dont t think running 6th rules is the way to go. The same we we all learned how silly Escalation was together, we play the new rules together.


We all need to learn the new rules and as a group is always better then singular. I'll chat with Travis and see what he thinks. This wont be a tournament in any sense since we are all adjusting. There most likely wouldnt be a buy in and if games dont finish what ever.

We'd be more smoothing out the new phase and the integration of any other changes to the core game mechanics. The new extra crap will be decided on once we see what the actual rule book says. I still think 1500 pt list would be fine.

 MikeFox wrote:
Casey, really...

I'm sorry, man. I miss him in person so much ... You're right though. The 'Net is a sorry replacement for face-to-face mocking.

I'll go to FaceBook.

On a different note, not that anyone will miss me, but family gigs have conspired to have me in 3 separate places on Saturday the 14th. None of which are GE.

 Brothererekose wrote:

pleasantnoodles wrote:
Results were:
I (Tim) went 2-1 with O'vessa Utramarines 7 drop pod list went 3-0 for best overall

2 and 1 and then 3-0 ? I'm confused.

Who was the 7 Drop Podder?

Carlos was not BA, okay, my bad.

Didn't I see Adam Solis? He didn't bring his Imperial Knights? Huh.

Thanks, Tim.

I(adam) was there. I had the 4 knights, Master of the forge, 5 scouts and a hunter. Lost the first game to Johnathan and tabled the next 2 (Blood Angels and Farsite Enclave)

I'm realizing that the only way I can win is by tabling my opponent(unless the mission is Purge the Alien). The more models you have the harder it is for me to deal with all of them before the game ends.

The more I hear about it the more I am excited about the new edition.

Our fearless leader Travis has decided on how June will be dealt with.

Ok gentlemen, by the time this event arrives, The 7th ed. great crusade will have brought the light of the Imperium to the world, raised it from a technological dark age, fought off Ork Waaghs, rebuilt, turned out a nascent chaos cult movement, traded with dubious xenos races, and the Tyranids will have scoured the planet bare after a last-ditch holdout by brave and loyal Imperial defenders.

In other words, we'll have had the book for nearly a month and had plenty of time to digest at least our first impressions. With that in mind, I suggest the following (pending review of the actual rules as soon as I have them in my hands, too):

1750 points - 3 rounds - 7th Edition - Maelstrom of War Missions

Public comment on this is open now, please let me know what you think. I'm not even on the fence until I read the book, but this is the starting point.

Usual GEP tournament rules apply, as usual, of course.

Sounds good to me. Although no one really knows what kind of problems are going to arise with the rules changes, GE has never been a powergaming Tourny spot. Keep calm and Splinter poison on....

So everyone knows where I'm coming from on this:

1. We need to play 7th. The new rules will have been out for almost a month by the time this event rolls up, which means that sixth will be, effectively, a distant memory. The idea of a last-hurrah 6th tournament isn't bad, it's just the timing that killed it. If it was this weekend or next, then maybe, but with three weeks to go, it's just not a good plan.

2. We need to play a tournament-style, structured event. Don't get me wrong; I love herp-a-derp days where dudes can roll in and out at will, play a game, play some WatchHammer, then bail. But that doesn't lend itself to really seeing how things work or don't work, in the same way that we didn't really understand how out of control it would be to open the listbuilds until we played the Big One tournament. This isn't to say that I want the event to be competitive, in the sense of trying to find a top player, best imperial, best non, etc. I envision a more casual event, prizing-wise, that still has the structure of a standard three-round event.

Since this is our first date with Yivo, so to speak, I want to make sure we put it through the paces. That means putting as much of the new stuff in as seems workable. I don't think that will run contrary to the spirit of the event, when we're looking at it as a tournament dry-run, in a sense. Noodles is right, there is a lot to consider, particularly when we don't have books in-hand, which is why I'm not going to make any calls until I see it for myself. As ever, with GW the devil is in the details. But we will get to see it soon, and discussions can begin in earnest. I just wanted to make sure we had something on the calendar and you all knew how I'm approaching this before the bomb drops, since we don't yet know if this bomb is going to be more Smiths or more Megadeth. We will probably be there with bells on to try out all the new stuff and exult in all the cool new ways to play, but we could also just be playing Marvel Dice Masters while our armies sit on eBay!

TWO DAYS!!!

So... do I get to bring my c'tan out to play again? Cause... if so.... that would be.... just super. So super.

Whatever do you mean...?? You can play a C'Tan right out of the Necron Codex!

As for the Transcendent C'Tan nonsense... well, it all depends on how GW spins it in the book. All Signs point to Lords of War being part and parcel with the new game, so it will definitely be an issue for the community at large to reach a consensus on. My knee-jerk on format is that most 'standard' events will be battle-forged only, no Lords of War, formations yes, dataslates yes, Maelstrom of War missions (mostly because everyone is *really* tired of the Eternal War missions and having to whip out cards for some rounds and not others in an event is kind of a logistical headache). And something along those lines as a default means that when people decide to do an off-format event of something unique like Unbound only / Lords yes / etc., the rules for that stuff will be easily at hand.

Either way...

TWO DAYS!!

It has been my experience that the first tournaments have always been 1500 points. The lower points due to noses in the books. I would say no to Lords of War and yes to all the other funny business. I think the player sheets should have a place to tally VC, what with the new cards demanding that.

I will be in a lot to play 7th so I hope to be there and be square on the rules. I think this is going to be a red hot edition and I really want to see how factions take off. Iron Hands sound like a buff and SM getting all the disciplines, SWEET!

 sgtpjbarker wrote:
It has been my experience that the first tournaments have always been 1500 points. The lower points due to noses in the books. I would say no to Lords of War and yes to all the other funny business. I think the player sheets should have a place to tally VC, what with the new cards demanding that.

That's looking like where we'll be at, I totally spaced on the 1500 points. We've been doing higher points for so long now it didn't even occur to me.

People after playing 3 games of 7th I can not stress enough, PRACTICE IT!
There is more book keeping with the missions changing every turn and all the new powers. Come prepared.

Also Travis since the new ork book lands the week before can I use it? I'll practice it and read up on everything like a good little grot would.

Also since I'm most likely to be the only ork player as usual?

Pishaw!!! jus been waitin fer some proppa tools mate. don't fink youse da only warboss round ere ya filthy git.

Ok, I am going to be playing a lot in the next few weeks. Casey and I are going to try and meet and throw down with all the crazy combos. I have some CSM and an excuse to buy some deamons to get an idea if the psyker conjure is really as crazy as people say. I have a feeling EVERYONE will be doing the psyker thing from now on.

I have read and reread the rules. The little changes are everywhere and will be very tough to keep in mind. I think I will fine tooth comb the rules and put together a cheat sheet of things that look different. I was thinking vehicles wrecked are difficult only, passengers taking LD for stun/shocked hits, Flyer crash test, Flyer immobilized effect, and my favorite "what happened to my LD tests, where did they go".

Having played so much fantasy, I am feeling that the psyker phase is not as bad as the net would have you believe. The perils table is going to hit much more and to races that really never cared. I also feel that the psyker phase should go pretty smooth, as it does in fantasy, as far as a mechanic. It will mean people will not have to remember how much charge they have and forget to use their powers.

The HUGE thing I see is terrain. I think the days of area terrain are back. The book allow for cover in certain terrain to give you the old, "I am touching, so I get the cover save". I think the message here is go back to your old ways of area terrain, you have our blessing. I would like to see that happen at GE. Bringing back the touch it you get it would make it much easier to play and more enjoyable. I love WYSIWYG, but I really think it slows games down and make thinks difficult for very little game return. I don't know how many times I have had to say, do I get that cover, look again for me, please, high die at least, really, great, thanks or gee it's just a game, give me the save for crying out loud.

The largest change and this is a biggie.

Dedicated Transports are scoring and denial, WITHOUT passengers. So i can take 16 scoring and denial units. My head is still spinning on this one. The RHINO RUSH is back. Fish of Fury anyone?

Overall all, I am really happy with 7th, I think we have Deamons and CSM feeling viable again, we have a psyker phase worth something, and the crazy stuff fixed all over the place. Hell, I might even do an Ork army of speed freaks. Watch out Mike, I am going to give you a run for you money.

Well I'll be at the store today with 1500 CSM and Knights

Ok, first game was a blast. The system works, IMHO. The issues are in the list and always have been. I see a table with Imperial Knights and SMs, I think I need a lot of firepower, flyers, and some psykers. The list to watch is one that works that combo. Seriously, D6+6 hits is really powerful. Yesterday I had 15 dispel dice on the table. I tossed them all and came up with one six. I dropped them again and came up with 4. So you can shut off a power, but I don't think people are thinking out of the box yet. I really like the Psyker Phase. Just like fantasy, but the D6 fixes the heavy sway in luck that fantasy is plagued by. I need more games with more armies. Right now, I have to say that a GK army is very powerful. I think Gloom Prisms on a Necron army is going to be the same.

Need to play more!

 sgtpjbarker wrote:

Overall all, I am really happy with 7th, I think we have Deamons and CSM feeling viable again, we have a psyker phase worth something, and the crazy stuff fixed all over the place. Hell, I might even do an Ork army of speed freaks. Watch out Mike, I am going to give you a run for you money.

Umm you mean against my newly converted ork nob bikers who may or may not be riding raveners? Along with my Mega Nobz made from Ogryn riding on a Battlewagon made from a Terigon? BRING IT!

Blending vs. Layering, the game is afoot.

I would like to propose a sliiiiight rule amendment if we're going to use the tactical cards. Can we go ahead and say you can discard for free and draw a new one if the objective is physically impossible? For example, kill a psyker if you're playing tau, or destroy a flyer if the enemy has no flyers in their list. And I mean completely impossible, not just impossible at the moment. Otherwise the cards just seem to make it who drew the more possible hand.

I don't see the cards as a problem. The problem is the armies you bring and the tactics you use. The cards make the game so much more. The randomness is just right and it is much better than any game I played in 4th, 5th, or 6th. You have to plan each turn. Watch what your opponent gets and what you get and decide what to try for. Gone are the games that you watch players camp and then land on objectives turn six for the win. Those were boring and I am glad they are gone. The mix of objective capturing and in game mission specific jobs is exciting and fun. I am all for the tac cards and they must be kept, IMHO.

Plus you can discard 1 card at the end of your turn so you can easily get rid of whatever bad card you are dealt.

I played a couple of games of 7th and do like it very much. That said I have to strongly agree with discarding impossible to accomplish objectives right away. The points can really stack up quickly if luck is on your side, leaving your opponent in the dust even if they are playing perfectly.

 oddworx wrote:
I played a couple of games of 7th and do like it very much. That said I have to strongly agree with discarding impossible to accomplish objectives right away. The points can really stack up quickly if luck is on your side, leaving your opponent in the dust even if they are playing perfectly.

Were these games with your DE tourney list, largely unchanged?

I imagine the big BeastM unit would be able to secure two objectives at a time.

And, yes, kids, I know they can only grab 1 a Turn, but given Maelstrom unpredictability, a big unit foot print is an advantage.

I think TOs are going to be really thinking through the placement of objectives. Players are going to looking at placement as a much bigger part of the game. I don't think it matters if you take out the undoable cards. That may account for one or two a game. Terrain and objectives are huge and every turn matter now. I no longer have the game that comes down to the last turn roll. I really like that going away.

 sgtpjbarker wrote:
Terrain and objectives are huge and every turn matter now. I no longer have the game that comes down to the last turn roll. I really like that going away.

Maybe you'll earn the nick-name "Blow Out Barker".

I had thought that you enjoyed the Win or Lose on 'last roll' games. They're the ones I get the most kick out of.

Of course, if the game I'm playing has gone south for the opponent or me by turn 3 or 4, or, maybe 'capsized' is a better term? Then that means shaking hands earlier and having time to kibbutz over suds before the next round.

Whichever, I'm *for* keeping the Maelstrom TacObs for the foreseeable future. Then again, if 40k included a wallop on the head at the end of turns 2 and 4, I'd keep playing.

 Brothererekose wrote:

 oddworx wrote:
I played a couple of games of 7th and do like it very much. That said I have to strongly agree with discarding impossible to accomplish objectives right away. The points can really stack up quickly if luck is on your side, leaving your opponent in the dust even if they are playing perfectly.

Were these games with your DE tourney list, largely unchanged?

I imagine the big BeastM unit would be able to secure two objectives at a time.

And, yes, kids, I know they can only grab 1 a Turn, but given Maelstrom unpredictability, a big unit foot print is an advantage.

It was a version of my tourney army against Blood Angels, who I believe are the most underpowered codex. I would venture to say that if we drew each other's cards he would have definitely won. The discarding of impossible objectives would have balanced this out IMO.

I second, third or fourth (whatever it is) for the auto discard of unachievable missions. One in your starting hand isn't so bad, but when you start with 2 or three, it isn't fun.

As well, I know June technically started last weekend, but it is still the second Saturday right? So a week from this coming Saturday? As well, any idea when we will know the format and such?

Last question, the factions thing has me confused as for supplements. Is a supplement book say Ianden Eldar or Farsight Enclaves Tau a separate faction for the purposes of detachment selection? Or since they share rules from the same books (Ianden/Eldar, Farsight/ Tau Empire) they are no longer separate? I will re-read this section in the book again, but it sounded like detachments MUST be different in the matter of unit selection, that one detachment cannot have the same possible units of another detachment...

I vote no discard if using decks as it skews the points potential in that players favor. If we are using the table(rolling dice) then I am ok with a reroll.

As for faction, there is a graph in the rules book that shows the different factions. You cannot ally with yourself basically, unless your code says so(space marine). So CSM, BL ans cannot ally with each other because they all belong to the CSM faction

I have played with the card several times now and I feel they are just so great and make each turn cool. I think you have to stay with the way the cards work. Yes, there are those days when the dice are mean, the cards will be nice or mean too, so live with it.

The real issues will show their ugly head, but I have yet to see them. Of course, spam is spam, and it is easy to smell when it shows up.


Here is Game Ogre's next RTT

Since 7th edition is still pretty new, we'll be limiting what you can bring to this one. No un-bound armies. All must follow the Combined Arms Force Org Chart, plus a maximum of 1 Allied Detachment. I will allow Come the Apocalypse allies though. After the tournament we'll discuss what we want to allow for the next one.

I'll go on record as being against tactical objectives as written. At best, they make the game dynamic and challenging for both players, so that's good. But at worst, they're just another level of RNG to throw a wrench in what should be tactically sound play. In the past, it used to be that when dice went against you, you could still play for the mission and hope for the best. In 7e, if the dice AND the cards go against you, you get to sit there with your thumb up your butt. Not exactly a thrilling narrative. I've also had games where I won on cards despite losing a good majority of my units, so it felt rather confusing.

Well, the format for this one is final. Or, as final as it can be given the circumstances; everything with this game is so up in the air right now it's going to take a while to coalesce, and even then I expect it will end up being an exacerbated version of where we were in 6th, where various camps within the community decide to do it one way or the other. Personally, I'm against playing "6th with a FAQ" and that's not how I plan to do it, but we'll see how it goes at an actual event.

In response to Ian, yes, the dice and cards can go against you, but when the Emperor wants you to lose, that's just how it goes. . Seriously though, I remember plenty of games in 6th where the dice went against me and *because* of that I *couldn't* play to the mission, either because my units were dead to hot dice or cold saves, or I was getting flipped over on Kill Points in particular, which was a nasty little one-two punch of your units are dying and giving up KPs, and since they're dead, you can't fight back to earn KPs of your own! And I have heard the argument that "the cards let me win even though most of my stuff was dead" a few times, and my response is twofold: One, I played plenty of games in 5th and 6th where I won or lost based on the equivalent of three Guardsmen cowering in the rubble, contesting objectives at the last moment and praying to the Golden Throne that the game ended on 5. And Two, It seems to me that a mechanic that creates an opportunity for a player to still clench a win, however unlikely, even when their back is against the wall, so to speak, is a good mechanic. One that allows for tactical play, even.

I'm pretty confident at this point that I've played more 7th than most at this point (que Casey's jab. Wait for it. ...Got it! ), and I've played all the Maelstrom Missions multiple times. There was at least one blowout, I conceded defeat on bottom four once, but overall the games have been good, fun, and reasonably close.

I guess my take on the Tactical Objectives at this point is that they've provided me with an improved 40k experience, and that all the doomsday scenarios about how they're bad or unbalanced sound like problems we had in sixth already anyway, so it's a net gain for me. But I do understand that a lot of people are playing and theorizing based on 6th ed. lists that were designed for Eternal War missions, or speculative 'good' lists for 7th and that may or may not pan out, so YMMV.

I also know that everyone's forming opinions from the point of view of a player for the most part, where I have to do that, but also get an idea how things work as a TO, which means I actually have to run an event using the new rules to see what works and what doesn't; otherwise I'm making an ill-informed decision. Unlike modern politics or culture, I endeavor to have a nuanced position on the game, which may well include my view as an individual player differing from my view as a TO who runs events for a community of players (jab from Casey in 3, 2... Got it!)

Regardless of all that, if you're showing up to Game Empire Pasadena this Saturday, here's what ya gotta know:

- 1500 points
- Maximum of 2 Detachments (of any type)
- Maximum of 1 Formation
- Maximum of 1 Fortification
- No Unbound (though I am considering Unbound for future events with Judge's (my) approval, but we'll talk about that on Saturday)
- No Lords of War
- Maelstrom Missions with Mysterious Objectives.
- 3 Rounds
- 10:00am
- $10

Standard Prize spread to best overall, best imperial / best non, best sport, best army.

So, if you're Ork enough to come and try a tournament that's actually 7th edition (mostly), I'll see you on Saturday!

Am I ork enough? Is Casey going to make a snide comment below? Will Ian spam some sort of small transport? Will I spam lobba in two weeks?

I think we all know the answer here

Do you have the mission cards in stock at GE?

I am unable to find them anywhere.

2 max detachments of any type includes self-allying, correct?

Also, RTT is no FW -- is this still RTT with those additional rules?

How dare you change x,y,z! I thought this was 40k (murica)! Who are you to do that? That's so OP unfair for army x and this just boosts the power of unit Z and deathstar y! Ugh, rage quit!!!!!!! (Even though I haven't played more than 0-3 games of 7th this opinion is still valid and CORRECT!)

I just interjected the rest of Dakkas feelings toward 7th edition over the last 4 weeks into your thread. You're welcome.

On a serious note I am sad 7th came out at such a busy time for me. I have read through the rules, and the changes and to me at least everything seems pretty good. I hated 6th about half way through it (no, this has nothing to do with my record in tournaments. I won 2 early on with Cron Air and came in top 3 3 other times with Cron Air and Nurgle Flying Circus not to mention playing Janthkin for all the marbles at the AnimeExpo GT with said Flying Circus. Some people have the memory of a gypsy moth ) and am happy to see a change. I can't make it this weekend because I will be out of town for a wedding. Hopefully I can make the July event and get a few games in starting this coming Tuesday.

I look forward to results and pictures from the event hint hint!

 Blackmoor wrote:
Do you have the mission cards in stock at GE?

I am unable to find them anywhere.

They are nowhere, thanks to GW's astonishing foresight during the initial production run (I think they printed what, 17, 18 copies? You know, for the US market )

I have made up a score sheet for games that allows players to roll for and track their active/scored/discarded objectives, and includes a cheat sheet with each objective's rules. We've played a few games with it at the store and it works well enough; you don't have to keep thumbing through the book for objective rules all game.

bryceloop wrote:
2 max detachments of any type includes self-allying, correct?

Also, RTT is no FW -- is this still RTT with those additional rules?

Yes to self-allying. FW is still out, as well. I'll put that in the event details.

How likely are we to include FW in these events in the future? I got the NEED. The need for KRIEG.

I had a blast. Definitely looking forward to attending more often. Everybody seemed great and I had 3 fun games. I wasnt expecting to win it. Thanks to Mike, Andrew and Alan for really fun games. Im not so sure about Maelstrom in tournaments though.

Big turnout for the first RTT of 7th, with tons of new faces!

Julnlecs won the whole thing with Space Marines, looked like Ultras with some rhinos and a drop pod or two.
Jonathan and his bikes w/ drop pod support took home Best Imperial
MikeFox was best painted, to the surprise of none, not even hermits living under a rock.
Brandon and his GK got Best Sports.
Yours truly managed to snag Best non-Imperial with CSM/Black Legion.

I have a few pics of armies from before the games started but I'm afraid that's all. Maelstrom missions, combined with new players and a new ruleset meant we had some problems with games finishing on time. I only got thru turn 4 with my first opponent, and was lucky enough to have game 2 and 3 finish naturally on turn 5, but I hear others weren't so fortunate.

Tim and I had no chance of finishing, but I had a blast playing, he is a great guy. Miles and I had a blast killing each others Coteaz. Jason and i slugged it out, but stole most of my cards, good job, he really played to the missions. I had a blast rolling a 6 on my Vortex of Doom and vaporizing his TH/SS Termies, that made the day oh so worth while. Thanks Travis for setting all the tables and answering our silly questions. What is the next one going to be?

I had a blast. My games went 7, 7 and 5 turns. All done with about an hour and 15 minutes. But then I only had 4 models in my army.

Maelstrom missions weren't that big of an issue as the average point difference was 4.6 I believe.

So, are we still doing the uber competitive event next month or should I actually be busy painting?

Can we bump it up to 1850 points for BAO practice?

 MikeFox wrote:
Upcoming BIG Events:

July 12th: No Dice, No Glory, No Painting Required
A fitting follow up to the fluffy event, an 1850 no-holds-barred throw down. Break out the cheese and the unpainted models because there is only one objective here; break the rules so bad you make your opponent wish he never started playing with little plastic army men. Our normal Sportsmen and Painting awards/requirements will be suspended to make way for some true d-baggery.

Although, I think Mike wrote this before 7e's advent ...

pleasantnoodles wrote:
So, are we still doing the uber competitive event next month or should I actually be busy painting?

On the painting thing, Tim: Just today, in maybe a couple hours, I *just* completed my first Warp Spider, from prime to ink & edging details and based. It's pretty much codex picture level in detail. Not nearly as neat, of course, I'm not delusional on my paint skills.

So, Tim, if you have work off, and ... 3 to 4 hours ... you can go from prime to finshed:





So, Douche-baggery or not, paint your junk!

Now that I *like* the paint job, that is, colors chosen, I'll assembly-line the rest, and post pictures tomorrow.

I talked to Travis Friday while buying 8 leman russes and he said it will still be 1500

I second Blackmoor to make it 1850 BAO practice. Ive been getting a bunch of games for this and 3 more games in one day would help out a bunch.

I'm not saying I wouldn't like some BAO practice in a tournament setting too, but I believe it's more of an issue with getting games to finish on time with the new edition. We had a lot of slow players last time and I think Travis just wants to make sure people get their kinks ironed out as much as possible before opening up the points a bit.

It's also not *that* hard to make a scaled-down version of your 1850 list for a 1500pt tourney. Unless you're trying Formation shenanigans maybe.

I'm good either way. I can add a couple leman russes. I don't have enough battle cannon shots as it is lol

For me it's more playing the BAO missions to see how they are then the points limit.

Yar I would be fine at 1500 I would just hope to play with the BAO missions.

Preferably also with the allowed FW units that BAO is doing

I'll weigh in with 1500 (as if my opinion counts for much The Tourney God's Will be done).

As mentioned the 1850 game time for BAO is going to be 2.5 hours, but the GE time allotment isn't quite that.

We're all jonesing for BAO practice, sure, but I would like my GE rtt, to be my *fun* "Game Empire RTT!" ...

We do play this for fun, yeah?

The BAO missions are alot of fun.
The Maelstrom missions itself, not so much.

 Julnlecs wrote:
The BAO missions are alot of fun.
The Maelstrom missions itself, not so much.

I find both sets of missions enjoyable.

The time is far more the issue, and with more points, ... well there ya go.

Will the new Ork codex be allowed? Also with the new codex having lords of war in it, will Ghaz or the Stompa be allowed (been painting my stompa and want to use it)?

Hiya, just a quick note from a foreigner.

We're over in Ca from London in Aug, and fancy a 40k tournament day, which looks to be Sat 9th.

I know it might be too early to say for definite, but what's the normal points value and vibe? Relaxed or super-competitive? What's the vibe on Lords of War (we're not planning any), formations (we tend to use one) or multiple CAD?

 Hivefleet Oblivion wrote:
Hiya, just a quick note from a foreigner.

We're over in Ca from London in Aug, and fancy a 40k tournament day, which looks to be Sat 9th.

I know it might be too early to say for definite, but what's the normal points value and vibe? Relaxed or super-competitive? What's the vibe on Lords of War (we're not planning any), formations (we tend to use one) or multiple CAD?

Likely, it'll be a 'normal' tourney for Game Empire, and I speak as a guy who has been attending the GE tourneys for 3+ years.

To directly answer:
a. 1500 to 1750. The TO is (likely) holding us to 1500 until most players are used 7e enough to finish games within the 2:15 minute time. If our July finishing times go well, then he'll bump points size up, much like we went through 6e growing pains two years ago.
b. I have always found the atmosphere to be fun, even on days where the 'theme' was "No Fluff, Pure Competition." The only time I've experienced a more competitive (that is, maybe less 'friendly') atmosphere was a 'Ard Boyz tourney.
c. LoW - I think we're still feeling this out. Multi-CAD would be Primary & Ally or Primary and a Supplement. Check 'Game Empire Pasadena' on FaceBook and you can Message the TO there (and here, if ya like).

Far more important essentials:
Recently, another Imperialist chap had come to play at our humble Yankee FLGS and I made sure he found the pub ( http://www.luckybaldwins.com ) across the street for lunch. He found it passable. So there's that to look forward to.


There will be (likely) prizes for Best OverAll, Best Imperial, Best Xeno, Painted Army & Sportsmanship.

Is that enough of a Welcome Mat for ya?

Couldn't ask for more!

Hivefleet Jr, the evil galaxy-threatening genius, won't be visiting any pubs but Im sure i will.

Thanks!

So by "no-holds-barred" LoW, multi Cads, unbound, FW, FW lists, and all that fun stuff?

Likely not Desubot, we don't even know we're still doing the 'no holds barred' this month since 7e dropped so unexpectantly.

Here's the post today:

Ok everyone! The first tournament for 7th Edition is behind us and the sky didn't fall!

We've done some testing on the Maelstrom missions and by and large they did not cause everyone's life to end, so I'll rack that up as a plus.

Now, for this next one, we're going to talk about trying some other potentially cra--aa--aaa-aazy sutff, like Lords of War and unlimited Detachments!

So let's hear it! Now that the Ork book is in people's sweaty mitts, it seems clear that going forward the understanding is that formations and Lords of War are going to be woven right into the fabric of reality for some armies, so what do YOU think?

The things I'm leaning toward for this one are:

-Lords of War allowed
-No limit on Detachments
-Come the Apocalypse Allies allowed
-Unbound allowed, subject to TO approval (which means you must submit the list to me before the day of the event and I will decide if it's kosher)

Other than that, the usual new edition tournament details remain unchanged: 1500 points, 3 rounds, 10:00am, $10 entry (or $20 purchase), games must play for four rounds minimum or both players receive a loss for the round, fully painted is required to win the top prize but not lesser prizes.

I think I'm just bringing my reaver titan

Ok gang, the facebook events page for the next one is live for all your yammering and RSVP'ing needs.

https://www.facebook.com/events/1425199227762064/

Up for debate this time is Lords of War, Detachments, and Unbound.

Now that the Ork codex is in hand, and we're seeing the full embracing of LoW, formations, etc., in the regular army lists, the question is raised: How do we handle these elements, and how do we address their inclusion into the larger world?

My current first draft of the next tournament is as follows:

-1500 points
-Unlimited detachments
-Lords yes
-Formations yes
-Unbound yes (subject to TO approval; Unbound lists must be submitted and approved BEFORE the day of the event)

I'm still comfortable in saying no Come the Apocalypse Allies, since I doubt that's ever going to be a key element of an army's build philosophy. Assuming the above makes it through the wringer reasonably unscathed, then we'll be doing two Eternal War missions and only one Maelstrom mission to keep the calamity down.

As ever, I'm on team TryItOutFirst, so I want to give some of these elements a chance to breathe before they get strangled. That being said, I remember vividly the anything goes nonsense of our last foray into LoW territory, so I'm not married to the above by any stretch. Let me know what you think here or on Facebook, so I can get a sense of what people want to see.

Currently I just don't think there's enough room in 1500 points to do anything all that silly, but I'm likely wrong, and some fine citizen of the internet will prove me so.

Question: the FAQ separates the LoWs from the rules in excalation granting VPs for hull points and wounds on them, as well as the reroll seize, are we going to keep using those rules or are we going straight FAQ and leaving those out?

So here are my thoughts:

1. Yes to LoW VPs
2. No C'tan, warhound, revenent. Alternately we just use the BAO LoW listing which excludes a few others but those 3 i think are the big dogs.
3. I think unbound is just going to become a mess, esp if someone shows up without presenting you with a list prior since we all hate excluding people at that point. Thus it seems simpler to just stick with 1 CAD, 0-1 ally, 0-1 formation, 0-1 fortification
4. BAO missions, either inspired by them (Normal + Maelstrom) or just using them
5. Allow FW, if we're opening the door to LoW (most of which are FW models anyways), lets open it up to FW too. Just require they have printed rules or the book or it becomes a lovely proxy for something else.

Largo39 wrote:
So here are my thoughts:

1. Yes to LoW VPs Sure
2. No C'tan, warhound, revenent. Alternately we just use the BAO LoW listing which excludes a few others but those 3 i think are the big dogs. Agreed
3. I think unbound is just going to become a mess, esp if someone shows up without presenting you with a list prior since we all hate excluding people at that point. Thus it seems simpler to just stick with 1 CAD, 0-1 ally, 0-1 formation, 0-1 fortification Seconded
4. BAO missions, either inspired by them (Normal + Maelstrom) or just using them No opinion here
5. Allow FW, if we're opening the door to LoW (most of which are FW models anyways), lets open it up to FW too. Just require they have printed rules or the book or it becomes a lovely proxy for something else. Big yes, wanted this for a while

My 2 cents

I think 1500 will mitigate alot of the silliness expected from unbound. I admit that I plan to bring an unbound list but then if I bring my normal army I don't benefit from objective secured anyway.

And the TO has no problem turning people away, or it could just be me lol

Largo39 wrote:
1. Yes to LoW VPs
2. No C'tan, warhound, revenent. Alternately we just use the BAO LoW listing which excludes a few others but those 3 i think are the big dogs.
3. I think unbound is just going to become a mess, esp if someone shows up without presenting you with a list prior since we all hate excluding people at that point. Thus it seems simpler to just stick with 1 CAD, 0-1 ally, 0-1 formation, 0-1 fortification
4. BAO missions, either inspired by them (Normal + Maelstrom) or just using them
5. Allow FW, if we're opening the door to LoW (most of which are FW models anyways), lets open it up to FW too. Just require they have printed rules or the book or it becomes a lovely proxy for something else.

1. If Lords of War are in, partial VPs for hurting them are most definitely in. Any notion that they would not is just plain silly.

2. I'm perfectly fine with line-item vetoes for stuff like the above; if the community isn't interested in seeing them then I don't want them to show up. Generally the consensus I've seen from talking with people in the shop is that the C'tan/Rev/Hound type stuff is not kosher, but now that we're seeing stuff like Ghaz getting slotted in LoW, and the codex being written with a Stompa right there in the book (with, presumably, the understanding that it will show up in armies and games and not just gather dust), then we have to start thinking about LoW in general. It's still a long way from being universal, but it seems like the way the wind is blowing. I'm still scratching my head over Ghaz, honestly. Putting him in that category is just so weird. He doesn't even have one measly D weapon!

3. The short answer on Unbound is that I want to give the rule an opportunity to function as intended for those who want to use it that way. Am I going to green-light a list with 20 Obliterators? Or seven Riptides? No. This is an experiment for me as much as anything else, I want to see what kind of lists get submitted and what I think about them. And have no qualms about people being turned away. The rule is clear: submit the list before the day of the event or you can't play. Period.

4. No. I have played the BAO missions, and I see what they're going for, but I do not agree with that take on gameplay. The Eternal War missions still work just as they always did, if they are still kinda boring, and no one has yet shown me any flaw in the Maelstrom missions that is beyond repair. Personally I've had a lot of fun with them and the response from the first tournament was mostly positive. For my money, the more homebrew and divergent missions are, the more niche of a meta is created. If you want a razor-edged competitive 40k experience, you make listbuilding as open as possible within the rules and reason, you play a mix of Eternal War and Maelstrom missions straight out of the book, and you go with a 1-0 point system: win - 1, lose or draw - 0. Then play swiss rounds until there's an undefeated winner. You could fudge the points a bit to be more lenient on draws, but really anything more is an arbitrary contrivance. But I digress.


5. I'm generally fine with FW, as well, with the same ability to veto specific things that are accepted to be overpowered, as with Lords of War.

All that said, I think, as Adam has pointed out, that 1500 is a significant constraint to shenanigans in lists. People have been asking me about when we're going to up the points again and I definitely don't think we're there yet, though BAO will be a good barometer. If they can run that monster at 1850 in a reasonable amount of time, games coming to a conclusion, etc, with a bajillion players who're still muddling the rules, then maybe we can have a bigger points

Bahkara wrote:And the TO has no problem turning people away, or it could just be me lol

It's just you.

So... are we officially only using LoWs that aren't a warhound titan, reaver titan, revenant, or a c'tan? Your post seems to say yes, but it's also possible from it that you're still considering. RAW Travis, RAW.

Too bad. My Unbound list was a C'tan, warhound and a knight

"Don't you worry about RAW, let me worry about RAW."

I also would have accepted: "Raw? RAW!? You're not looking at the big picture!!"

Now that's some good 40k execuspeak!



I am still considering. This consideration is seasoned on the one hand by the fact that I'm the frikkin king of RAW when it come to this game and scenarios and army build restrictions, but on the other hand by the fact that We just did a tournament with all the stupid stuff and it was pretty stupid. Then again, the Revenant and C'Tan lists didn't win, sooo....

Hooray for circular Logic!

In any case, I'll be finalizing everything after the weekend so we can get lists built. Stay tuned.

Forget list building. The ork dex means I got like a million models to paint since MANZ arnt troops any more and Nob bikers arnt worth the pionts. But get ready for my stormboyz, Cant wait for the tournament

@ Mike - Stormboyz are not troops either, they can't be ard armored so bolters cut them down, what am I missing? You just love flying things?

@Travis - You have to build some of your own scenarios. You are really good at it. I think the fact that you don't allow the cards and force people to roll on a chart gives you a golden opportunity to build your own chart of objectives. That is the way the game is going, and thankfully so.

I have noticed that many more lists and armies are being played with the new rules. I would really hope TOs can take advantage of the new rules and make some fun scenarios that challenge us on the table. For example, if you roll an objective that is not playable, Kill a psyker that he doesn't have, then you can play a wild card objective that is an objective on the Table, say a cool terrain piece the TO set out on each table or a unit/IC determined at the start of the game. Just saying, lots of cool stuff is possible now with the tac cards.

This is very true, Stormboyz can not be troops. BUT they can deep strike next to those annoying thunderfire cannons and force you to deal with them for a turn or two. And they cost the same pts. as boyz in a truck. So win.


And they are cool as gak models which I then converted the hell out of to make even cooler.

 sgtpjbarker wrote:
@ Mike - Stormboyz are not troops either, they can't be ard armored so bolters cut them down, what am I missing? You just love flying things?

@Travis - You have to build some of your own scenarios. You are really good at it. I think the fact that you don't allow the cards and force people to roll on a chart gives you a golden opportunity to build your own chart of objectives. That is the way the game is going, and thankfully so.

I have noticed that many more lists and armies are being played with the new rules. I would really hope TOs can take advantage of the new rules and make some fun scenarios that challenge us on the table. For example, if you roll an objective that is not playable, Kill a psyker that he doesn't have, then you can play a wild card objective that is an objective on the Table, say a cool terrain piece the TO set out on each table or a unit/IC determined at the start of the game. Just saying, lots of cool stuff is possible now with the tac cards.

I think the Maelstrom missions should be left as is. If you draw a bad card you draw a bad card.

I am excited to play my first tournament in 7th now that I have a few games under my belt. The game seems much better than it was mid-late 6th.

I thought were done forever? Glad that we can finally get in some grudge matches. We tend to have the bloodiest games; blood for the dice gods!

 OverwatchCNC wrote:
I am excited to play my first tournament in 7th now that I have a few games under my belt. ....

We need that meme of Fry looking dubious, no caption necessary.

I like this new edition alot. Played game where I lost in the end not because of the mission or the army but because I rolled 7 ones in a row :(

 Bahkara wrote:
I like this new edition alot. Played game where I lost in the end not because of the mission or the army but because I rolled 7 ones in a row :(

Not 7e's praise, Adam, but John's return.

I just like talking about me

 MikeFox wrote:
I thought were done forever? Glad that we can finally get in some grudge matches. We tend to have the bloodiest games; blood for the dice gods!

I was done forever with 6th after LVO. I am so far good with 7th. I am glad I only sold off most of my armies

It would seem I own a lot of plastic and resin models. Don't tell Natalie

Sorry, had to happen.

 MikeFox wrote:
Sorry, had to happen.

Never apologize when it's legitimately funny.

 disdainful wrote:

1. If Lords of War are in, partial VPs for hurting them are most definitely in. Any notion that they would not is just plain silly.

2. I'm perfectly fine with line-item vetoes for stuff like the above; if the community isn't interested in seeing them then I don't want them to show up. Generally the consensus I've seen from talking with people in the shop is that the C'tan/Rev/Hound type stuff is not kosher, but now that we're seeing stuff like Ghaz getting slotted in LoW, and the codex being written with a Stompa right there in the book (with, presumably, the understanding that it will show up in armies and games and not just gather dust), then we have to start thinking about LoW in general. It's still a long way from being universal, but it seems like the way the wind is blowing. I'm still scratching my head over Ghaz, honestly. Putting him in that category is just so weird. He doesn't even have one measly D weapon!

3. The short answer on Unbound is that I want to give the rule an opportunity to function as intended for those who want to use it that way. Am I going to green-light a list with 20 Obliterators? Or seven Riptides? No. This is an experiment for me as much as anything else, I want to see what kind of lists get submitted and what I think about them. And have no qualms about people being turned away. The rule is clear: submit the list before the day of the event or you can't play. Period.

4. No. I have played the BAO missions, and I see what they're going for, but I do not agree with that take on gameplay. The Eternal War missions still work just as they always did, if they are still kinda boring, and no one has yet shown me any flaw in the Maelstrom missions that is beyond repair. Personally I've had a lot of fun with them and the response from the first tournament was mostly positive. For my money, the more homebrew and divergent missions are, the more niche of a meta is created. If you want a razor-edged competitive 40k experience, you make listbuilding as open as possible within the rules and reason, you play a mix of Eternal War and Maelstrom missions straight out of the book, and you go with a 1-0 point system: win - 1, lose or draw - 0. Then play swiss rounds until there's an undefeated winner. You could fudge the points a bit to be more lenient on draws, but really anything more is an arbitrary contrivance. But I digress.


5. I'm generally fine with FW, as well, with the same ability to veto specific things that are accepted to be overpowered, as with Lords of War.

All that said, I think, as Adam has pointed out, that 1500 is a significant constraint to shenanigans in lists. People have been asking me about when we're going to up the points again and I definitely don't think we're there yet, though BAO will be a good barometer. If they can run that monster at 1850 in a reasonable amount of time, games coming to a conclusion, etc, with a bajillion players who're still muddling the rules, then maybe we can have a bigger points

Bahkara wrote:And the TO has no problem turning people away, or it could just be me lol

It's just you.

1. Yay!
2. Yah, I definitely think LoW is in for good, especially with Ghaz in there (sigh, wasted opportunity on GW's part. I think Ghaz with stats more like the primarch stats from HH would have been great. There are definitely certain xenos characters that deserve to be a bit beefier. Vect would be another one given how freaking old he is). The circular logic of the revenent/c'tan not winning though is also due to luck in many ways. Had i not gone first vs the Revenent it would have been GG on my part equally as quickly. Furthermore vs the c'tan space marines are unique suited to deal with if they go the right way (ie: grav). Thus my problem with both of those units isnt that I/certain builds cant handle them, it's that they warp the meta around them (mtg style) so strongly that the number of effective builds in our meta will drop drastically since they'll have to get over the "hump" of those lists.

Furthermore certain codex's have no real effective way of dealing with them. Now that str D no longer ignores invulnerable the C'tan is sitting pretty on his t9 throne. If poison was just -2 for GCs instead of strictly wounding on 6s things might be more interesting since a lot of armies have access to 2+/3+ poison somewhere, but alas tis not to be.

3. Kk
4. Fair enough, I just like the concept of missions with more than 1 way to win. I think maelstrom are a huge boost and definitely make the game a lot better (yes i still argue you get a free-redraw with impossible cards, and d3 points is a flat 2 instead)), i just thought it would lead to more intense games to have relic + maelstrom, or what have you.

5. yay! I'm ok with all that.

I'm actually really looking forward to this one.

Hey gang, take a look at the event page on FB for the final list of allowed Lords of War:

https://www.facebook.com/events/1425199227762064/?ref=5

And just so everyone is aware, we're pre-selling the Stormclaw starter on Saturday for 10% off to tournament players (and anybody else, too, I suppose, but you know ). It drops next Friday. If you get one, that will count as your entry, of course.

Aw, man. Ya see, I *thought* was going to be able to pass up on this starter kit. It was heavily rumored to be Blood Angels and xenos. BAs.

Vain sissies that sparkle regardless of what star's light they're fighting under. Prolly a bunch of 'em named Edward.

But NOW?!?! Space Wolves!

Damn it.

Ok gang, everything's ready to roll for tomorrow, I did get one Unbound submission (from Casey, natch! ), that was approved.

See you all in the morning!

It was brought to my attention, on Facebook, that I made it seem from my earlier post in here that I would be attending this tournament. While excited to play a 7th ed tournament sadly the August event will have to be my first. Sorry for having misled my many fans.

Did I sound enough like Lebron James?

 OverwatchCNC wrote:
It was brought to my attention, on Facebook, that I made it seem from my earlier post in here that I would be attending this tournament. While excited to play a 7th ed tournament sadly the August event will have to be my first. Sorry for having misled my many fans.

Did I sound enough like Lebron James?

You would have to go play a few tournaments at another store then come back after meeting with Travis, who had written an angry post about you leaving.

Knights are OP!

So you won?

Adam's 4 Imperial Knights took it all.
Andrew, ticked off at and shelving, his tau, took Best Xeno performance.
Jonathan had Best Imperial performance.
Daryl's DE edged out MikeFox's orks for Best Paint. Maybe because Mike had a few new models not fully painted. Speculation on my part.
Best Sportsman, me.

Highlight: Round 2, one player had a wedding to go to, scheduled far earlier than he thought. He left early, being summoned (wha-PAH!) by his g/f. The usual chauvinistic reactions resulted throughout the day.

PS:
Julio and the Fresno crew: Bummer on the no shows.

PPS:
Is "Weeoo - tish!" a better whip-snap onomatopoeia? I dunno as I hardly ever hear it ....



Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Bahkara wrote:
Knights are OP!

I brought two lists, one my all eldar BAO, scaled back for 1500 and the other the 'Unbound' list (IG & tau). Not OP in any WAAC "Unbound" way, but with enough tau FusionBlasters to deal with heavily armored enemies. I couldn't decide. Finally, I went with needing BAO practice, but I drew Adam and his 4 Imperial Knights as an opponent round one.

I think, Mr. OP, that 8 Fusion Blasters might've crimped your day. You tabled my eldar, and I garnered, what? 5 glances?

So LOW didn't rear their ugly heads?

Someone brought a Shadowsword. they went 1-2

Sorry guys that I wasnt keeping the thread up to date, I moved from NoHo to Hawthorne and work has been insane. Anyway, updated the front page.

No Lord of War didnt really make a splash, but Travis has seen fit to not allow them in the near future. Everything else is fine though. My orks will be making a come back now that I have the Ghaz suppliment, the Bully Boyz formation is my hot ticket. 15 fearless, fear cause Mega Nobz with +1WS in trucks. Have fun with that.



So 7th seems to be all that and a bag of orks killing each other with mob rule. Our last two 7th tournaments went well and games are starting to finish on time. In addition the mix of Eternal war and Maelstrom missions seemed to make the crowd happier.

Our next tournament will be another simple RTT style event with an increase in point level from 1500 to 1750. Lord of War will not be allowed, forge world is cool to bring, and basically everything else in the rulebook is fair game. Just check in with the TO if you want to bring an Unbound list, as supreme D-baggery will not be tolerated.

Our normal scedule of events has been thrown off by the new edition but Ill try and get in one last bigger themed event this year before the Holiday madness tournament. If you didnt go last year you missed out, bloodcrushers killed everything. If you have any suggestions for such an event Im all ears. Highlander was something that came up but a one unit per entree restriction seems a bit restrictive.

Any rationale on banning LOW for the future?

I'm just sad to see Ghazzy (and potentially Logan) go.

Is there a reason LoW will not be allowed in the next tournament? It seems from the other posts that the only LoW used was a practical non issue so why the change?

 OverwatchCNC wrote:
Is there a reason LoW will not be allowed in the next tournament? It seems from the other posts that the only LoW used was a practical non issue so why the change?

I agree that the LoW *is* practically a non-issue, given that only one showed up, and no one submitted one in a list per the TO's request to submit 'em. The list *I* submitted was just some slightly 'unbound' Tau / IG traitors, no LoW.

The TO held a brief post-tourney discussion on LoW before announcing prizes. An informal survey of the attendees, yielded a 'if the LoW is in the codex, it will prolly be allowed', sort of response. So, Ghaz and Logan will likely be okay.

I think I was paying adequate attention enough to have got that right.

LoW being out is really just an aspirin for me, I don't want the headache!

I just don't get what GW is going for with that part of the game. A blanket declaration that LoW is kosher isn't the answer, since there's just waaay too much disparity between the stuff in that bracket. On the one hand, you have Baneblades and Titans and C'tan oh my, on the other you have... regular old Ghaz? Being boggled as to just how *not* a "Lord of War" he is was a common theme of the day .

He's not an Eternal Warrior?? (lol nope)

He has no Invulnerable save? ( for a turn, I guess)

Is his Power Klaw a D weapon or something?? (lerp)

He just has a Shoota? (yerp)

He's got some super Waaagh, though, right? (spoiler: no)

He's side by side with the frikkin Stompa, for Emperor's sake. It's just weird. So, I'm currently working with the worldview that any LoW found in a Codex will be legit, all the supplement stuff not so much, since, theoretically, the Codex stuff is reasonably balanced and the armies are now being designed with their LoW in mind, as opposed to the wild ride of stuff from before that includes Reavers and all sorts of nonsense.

This concept will hold up through the BA and SW books, when Logan and Mephiston get shackled to LoW status, and then will be scheduled to go right out the window when Necrons get a book and there's the C'tan ready to flip tables up and down the store.

In any case, until we get a clearer picture from seeing more 7th style codices, I'm of the mind that LoW are still largely an optional element of the game and one that is quite easy to remove until there's a better understanding of how it's supposed to work without causing any trouble with the game. People are still feeling out the new missions and little tweaks and mods to the rules, anyway. We've all got plenty of allied detachments and formations and whatnot to keep us occupied without the wild swing potential in LoW anyway. It's not that only one guy here or there brings them and they don't necessarily win or do great or whatever, it's that they provide a very narrow avenue for play and very lopsided games. Did you bring drop melta or a gakload of lances / lascannons / Knights? You might have, and if so, you're probably going to be fine. If not, you're kinda screwed. The games seemed, honestly, kinda lame, and I'm talking about for the LoW player!

That's where I'm at after admittedly not much to observe. I was hoping we'd see a Stompa too, maybe another couple super heavies but no luck. If people have a compelling argument for LoW I'm all ears.

Regardless of all that, it was a blast as usual and I hope everyone had a good time. We'll see you all again in August!

Sorry guys I couldn't make it. Our ride had to work last minute. We did have our local RTT here in Bakersfield on Sunday. We had 10 players show up and I was able to take 1st going 3-0 with 40 pts.

Hopefully I can make the August RTT at Game Empire.

I'd like to open the discussion on best army tie breakers being decided by sportsmanship.

It's not really about winning to me but... I suffer from OCD and I tend to obsess about small details which really turns people I play against off. It sucks as I feel I dont have an equal chance to compete because my opponent can judge me on his perception of my personality.

I understand having it be an enjoyable game for both but whats the balance? If I let everything go I have a bad time and if I bring anything up the other person has a bad time.

criteria for knocking someones sportsmanship score is a rules disagreement and were only 2 tournys into a new ediition for cripes sake.

There already is a sportsmanship prize. I know its a hold over from the RTT days but that doesnt mean its not unfair.

anyone else want to chime in?

Where you in contention for best army? Just wondering.


As to sportsman awards; Casey is going to win it anyway so why even argue over it lol. No ok on a serious note, I've win best sport at big GTs and have had plenty of rules disputes in those games. There is a way to play them off and keep the game going while still having a good time. I'm not saying your not good at it, rather your opponent might take the argument as hostility. Try working through It together slower and in a way that will not impact either side negatively. And yes people it's a new edition, so let's be a little understanding of rule questions. It's not like we are playing with a certain handlebar mustached man here.

If your opponent is a dick and knocks for sports because of that I sorry but hey there are dicks out there. But in place of sportsman breaking a painting tie what would you suggest?

Anyone can win sportsmanship. I know this because I won it once, with three riptides. We were all surprised too.

I think he means best xenos/imperial where sportsmanship is used as a tie breaker.

Lol, even though I lost I wouldnt argue that Knights are OP. Just knights + VP game is.... frustrating to deal with. Especially at 1500.

Even still it was still a super fun event and seemed to go much more smoothly. My thoughts on things:

LoW: still ok with (with restrictions). . But im also ok with them not being in the game either

FW: yay! keeep it innnn

Maelstrom: also super fun, still argue for my ususal arguments (d3 = 2, impossible = free redraw), but overall i think they've been a hit and seem to go well, without too much slowdown.
Having the cards helped massively and really sped things up. If anything they just prevented confusion about what you've accomplished and what you have left to do, and also prevented rolling the same objective multiple times.

VP games: ewww. I think we need to modify these, or just have knights count double or something

General timing: definitely better but man starting up can take a while. Especially now that <4 rounds = loss.. things seem like they could be faster in that initial setup.

Some ideas:

1. Having a "clock" for startup. I wouldnt necessarily say we use it to enforce anything, but at the very least it wakes people to "hey 15 minutes have gone by and you should have setup by now". Then if one player is still taking a while the other can use that to nudge them forward or get some more official help. I know that I myself have taken a while a times, mostly because I just lose track of time. So an official on deck countdown I think could be a big help.

2. Slowly working our way torwards an official definition of slowplay and some ways to enforce it. There have been games where the first turn has taken... a while (aka 1-1.5 hours). Granted this is a general "problem" with 40k, and difficult to address, which is why i think it's something we should start thinking about but not necessarily implement for next month.

3. Maybe we as a community can make up a more permanent cheat sheet that we can use as part of the main mission sheet. So we could decide here what kinds of stuff we want to see on it/seems to be slowing people down the most so that way we can just have it right there for everyone to get past that initial setup/first turn hump just a bit faster. Then we can assemble it and give it to Mike or whoever so that way they arnt always making everything lol. Hell we could more optionally develop cheat sheets for each army so people could get a better sense of what they have or what they are facing pre-tournament (something I was looking to do for BAo anyways, if enough time). Again though this is something we should do, not expect Mike/Travis to make for us.


Finally as for using sportsmanship as tiebreakers for best painted/xenos/imperial.. what else would we use? there arnt any metrics left other than some sort of paint score?

Honestly I think the main problem with OCD on the small details isnt the obesession of the small details... its how much time it usually takes to resolve them. It's not so much the balance of you or the other player having a good time, it's the balance of finishing in time at all (ie: >4 rounds). So at a certain point both player's enjoyment of the game has to take a backseat so that the game can continue in a timely fashion, and thus shortcuts may need to be made (either by letting it slide, or rolling it out, or taking the average result, doing to both players...etc).

Furthermore I would also say that the obsession with detail also implies a deliberateness of play which can be another source of exacerbation for ones opponents. It's ok to contest rules, that's perfectly in ones right. However if player goes in knowing that rules contests are likely (either because they are unfamiliar with the game or they know that their opponent is unfamiliar with the game), they need to hustle in all other aspects of their game in order to make up for that lost time. Otherwise yes you should expect a ding on sportsmanship, because that's the only outlet players have to delineate a game that went too slowly. This will be even more of a problem when we hit 1750. So unless we come up with a player speediness/readiness to play (where readiness to play is defined by both knowedlge of the rules and just ready to go from a dice/books/models/etc perspective) metric, sportsmanship is really going to be the only outlet there is for that sort of thing.

In the end it still comes down to winning, more than anything. Most of the time the games are decided by the BPs, so if you are concerned on losing out due to sportsmanship, also consider that even if you had an equivalent score to someone win/loss wise, more than likely they edged you out barreeellly based on BPs. Focus on those and having elements of your army that are capable of getting those. More specifically quarters and units that are fast enough to "daisy chain" when the inevitable "no more than 12 away" BP arrives. Obviously the kill all FA/HS/Troops/HQ ones are pretty straightforward, and the HQ killing something is relatively tough to plan ahead for (unless you have a particularly beefy HQ). But the ones that involve board control you can account for and should definitely be something to focus on, as getting those BPs will start winning you things much more quickly.

I think we should play "Purge the alien" for all 3 games next tourney but I'm a little biased

I feel like that's a shot at me and all ork players

And us DE players....

Just testing the water here... are people generally cool with using two CAD?

We have an averagely competitive list, which we'd like to use as the models will fit in a smaller case, ready to cross The Pond.

We have not had any issues with it thus far and the master TO allowed it last tournament. So I see no reason why it would not be allowed.

Thanks, Mike. Hope we get to see yer Orks.

I just want to point out that I normally do not complain that much about my own army(or try not to), but man I have not had a game so discouragingly bad as to make me not want to play them anymore. I mean 7 failed nova charges in a row with rerolls? 14 1s out of 20 rolls? Common game, not cool man. What I will say for Levi's sake is that Levi, if you think I gave you bad sportsmanship because my dice failed and you stomped me, please do not believe that I would stoop to something so low. I don't consider myself a bad sportsman, and I would hope others don't think I am an donkey-cave on the table. (Assuming my memory serves me) I believe I gave you the max for sportsmanship, which is a 6 right? (6-4-2-0, if I am not mistaken?) If I am wrong, and Travis says that I did (and mistakingly I might add) give you a low sportsmanship score, then I will happily give up my prize. I don't want any reward not legitimately earned.

With that aside, I would like to point out that orks probably would have taken tournament if someone had paid more attention in his games *wink* *wink* you know who you are.

I GOT MY ASS KICKED BY ORKS. SO HARD IN FACT THAT IT MADE ME WANT TO QUIT MY TAU(my dice may have been a contributing factor) nuff said hahahahahah

Andrew, are you referring to one very specific and very heroic drop pod? I have christened it 'marbo 2' for its service during battle.

maybe.... just, maybe...

I also heard word of some sort of "killpoints" game where "things" may have been ignored in favor of victory

I GOT MY ASS KICKED BY ORKS. SO HARD IN FACT THAT IT MADE ME WANT TO QUIT MY TAU(my dice may have been a contributing factor) nuff said hahahahahah

I'll trade you Orks for Tau!

Something that came up after the first few league games at the store last night: Are Knights too much?

...

...

...

Ok, now that Adam's done hyperventilating, hear me out. While discussing the impact and effect of Knights after my game last night, it occurred to me that the same rationale that I was using to remove LoW from the pool applies, in some respects, to Knights as well. It's difficult to handle, of course, since they have their own Codex and are specifically *not* Lords of War, but it did get me thinking about the types of games Knights have (and I have played plenty with and against them, so I'm not just spouting theory). Just like with Lords of War, it's not that Knights are coming in and sweeping every tournament without breaking a sweat, it's the kind of game playing against them (or, at least, a lot of them) creates: you ready for Knights? Good, got a game. You not ready? Lol!

Thus, in the interest of looking at all sides, here's some things to consider:

1. What if Knights could only be taken as Allies (so no Knight Warlord with crazy Warlord traits)

2. What if Knights were limited to 0-2, but could still be taken as your primary detachment and include your Warlord?

3. What if Knights were allowed in any number and format the way we've been doing, but they gave up VPs and a bonus to seize the initiative like Lords of War? (So every three HPs dealt in damage to a Knight meant +1 VP to the opponent, each dead Knight coughs up 2 total)?

Does that kneecap Knights too much? Make them irrelevant? Not harsh enough? Knights are meant, balance-wise, to be a hard counter to deathstar-style lists and are weak to flyers, but as a meta we don't really see lots of deathstars and flyers are diminishing in prominence now that Maelstrom missions are a thing. I guess the real question is do Knights create more problems than they solve, and what kind of gaming experience do they bring to 40k? When you see that pairing against the Knights the first time, are you thinking boss I want to see how those things really work, or are you thinking crap, not that list again? What about when you see the pairing the second or third time?

Something to consider for the future, particularly as the points value of the events start to creep back up. I'm definitely interested in what you all have to say about.

Except Adam.

Well, I have never particularly been a fan of knights, but it has nothing to do with the knight as a codex, 4 unit army, warlord night, etc. My biggest and really ONLY true problem with the kinghts is that they are not LoW and yet they use the same damage charts as a titan/ super heavy. There is nothing more frustrating with them than knowing that you can never do significant damage to them with a single lucky shot (yes remove extra D3 hullpoints on explodes, but none of the normal vehicle ddamage table, shaken, stunned, immobilized, weapon destroyed.) This exception in their rule makes me hate them and think they are another thing that shouldnt be allowed in games below 2000 points or APOC/ Escalation games.

Making them worth more VPs doesnt help the issue, it is more like a band-aid on a wound that is heavily infected. Double VPs still doesn't help the balanced armies that aren't kitted to fight 4 titans (and they are titans, baby titans maybe but titans nonetheless). I would rather face LoW than knight lists, because at least i know the LoW was very expensive and there is only the one.

I don't think we can wholeheartedly really remove knights, since they are so ingrained and some people will surely wander in and want to play with their massive robots of doom. Which is fine, however they do create a very interesting warping sensation in the meta game (and not the chaos-y kind, BAZING chaos and your lack of knights).

I do agree that the problem really reside sin your preparedness for them, and inherently some armies deal with them better than others, however, there are quite a few things that have this effect. If I bring 120 nids and you don't have high rate of fire, a fair number of blasts, or are otherwise bringing an elite army, well you're going to have a bad time. Similarly playing MC nids vs DE is, well, almost an auto-lose.

However, what we can do is mitigate this. The most egregious place where knights shine is in the KP games, where literally Adam's army was worth 4 KPs, while John's was 14 or something. Adam was almost a sure thing to win that. So, I'm not entirely sold on limiting the army building capabilities of knights, but I do think we should balance them on a per mission basis.

For example, if we're playing maelstrom, then the other player, even if they have no good answers to the knights, can at least run around trying to avoid stuff and sniping objectives. Same with other objective games, except for the relic where the knights can pick up the relic, or just encircle it.

I would propose the +1 KP per 3 HPs for knights in addition to the KP for killing the knight, similar to LoWs, but not VPs. Here's why:

1. In a 1500 KP game like we saw last week, Adam's army becomes worth 12 KPs (1 per knight, plus 2 for the 6 HPs), which is much closer to a normal army for KPs.
2. If we make it +2 VPs, then stripping 12 HPs from the knights is now worth the same as the KP mission itself, meaning you have to down 2 knights and you basically win/tie the KP game.

For every other game type, especially if we stick to maelstrom, the cards balance this out for us due to ObSec and the need for greater mobility, both of which the knights generally lack. I would really hate to invalidate Adam's 4 knights from a listbuilding perspective, but they do indeed warp the game and make quite a few things no longer viable by the pure threat of facing them.

I definitely agree on adding more KPs to knights in KP games (but NOT making them VPs, that would definitely be unfair).

Also a fun little note that I just noticed that would have potentially been key in our game:

if you in CC with something that you cannot possibly hurt (the lone marine) you can elect to fail morale checks. That could have swung things my way a bit more, though i think in all those cases he failed to hit and run out anyways, so it's potentially moot.

The argument that Imperial Knights as an army type are in the same vein as big horde armies or super deathstar armies is actually quite appropriate. There's plenty of army styles that you can just be unprepared for with an all-comers list, and while I'm not ready to put the boy to bed just yet and say that Knights are just a thing like anything else so deal, that concept definitely resonates with me. If somebody has Draigowing with a burly PaladinStar and your middle of the road army just can't handle it, do we then ban or penalize Draigowing? Or Seerstar? Or whatever? Obviously not. I don't want to start a race for the bottom where we systematically eliminate everything that isn't a nice, friendly, internally "balanced" army.

Hyberbolic metaphor notwithstanding (a bandage on an already infected wound! Glorious! ), I have been talking about Knights and LoW here in the shop the last few days pretty intently and I've come to the following tentative format for next time:

- 1750 points
- 0-1 Lord of War
- An army that includes any kind of detachment of Imperial Knights may not include a Lord of War
- Imperial Knights give up 1 KP per three hull points removed (per model) in scenarios that include Kill Points to determine the winner, for a total of 3 KP per Knight completely destroyed.

Multiple detachments are still green, as well as Unbound (again, as long as the list is submitted and approved prior to the event).

This seems like a reasonable middle ground that allows the inclusion of Lords of War and Knights without things getting out of hand. Obviously it is a reversal of the previous NO LoW decision, but to be honest I was never quite happy with that choice. After all, I'm an includer, not an excluder

Clearly we're still the better part of a month away from this one, so I'm definitely still listening to the discussion, but the above is what I'm leaning toward.

I suggest a simple fix.

No KP mission.

Same LoW banlist or should I bring out my tranny c'tan to play? For the record I would prefer the BAO list.

 OverwatchCNC wrote:
I suggest a simple fix.

No KP mission.

Yes, BAO ban list is in effect again, I just forgot to post it.

I think the extra KP for destroying the knight feels wrong when you're already giving points for removing hull points. If you want to make a knight worth 3KP then just make it 1 KP per 2 HP.

Better yet don't even bother with KP missions, then this whole conversation is moot.

Since no one seems to be getting my super subtle innuendo, I'll just go ahead and let everyone know that the Eternal War Mission we play for this one won't be Purge.

Not only is it becoming a sticky scenario in the modern meta, but it's also less relevant since it's only one scenario of twelve now instead of one out of six, and finally, we just played it last time!!

I brought it up for the sake of discussion since Purge is a thing and eventually we'll play it again.

My rationale is this: assuming a 1500 point army that includes four Knights and nothing else, the list has 12 KPs at risk, which is in line with what any other army would be bringing. Obviously, something skewy like Draigowing is only going to have 5-6, but that's an extreme. Even without the 'real-world' considerations that peeling those points off Knights is pretty tough / it's basically impossible for Knights to *not* get First Blood against most armies / It's really hard for Knights to give up Slay the Warlord unless their opponent is hyper focused on it, the simple numbers seem to make sense. Obviously some hyper-specialized armies like drop Marines stacked with Melta everywhere or a Tyranid flying circus would probably do pretty well against the Knights in this scenario, but every army has to have some kind of weakness (except Eldar, duh ), and the Knights were going to have a tough game in those match-ups anyway.

As I said on the facebook event page, Adam's got much more experience playing Knights in a tournament format than me, and I'm not ready to say the matter is settled, I want to hear what people think.

Is three KP per Knight too much? Is 2 KP better? Is the whole issue a wash since Purge is going to come up a lot less these days and Knights already have trouble in Maelstrom missions?

I think 1kp per 2 hp is the way to go. Still 3kp when dead and you don't have to discuss other high av vehicles which usually have more than 3hp.

So what's the turn out looking like for this? I know what it says on FB, anyone going to try running the BAO winning SM Biker/Knight Errant list? Huh? Huh?

Carlos, you're not allowed to win since you placed Second at BAO. Give someone else a turn

Maybe even Casey!

Will you be allowing any of the new space wolves?

OverWatchCNC wrote:So what's the turn out looking like for this? I know what it says on FB, anyone going to try running the BAO winning SM Biker/Knight Errant list? Huh? Huh?

Carlos, you're not allowed to win since you placed Second at BAO. Give someone else a turn

Maybe even Casey!

Ya know, there's merit to that. Now that I'm hitting a good stride with eldar, it's time to change up and start at the bottom of a learning curve with a new army!

So, whose ImpKnight can I borrow? I got enough bikes & drop pods!

Why is this thread not updating with anyone's posts?

Teddy is going to grab my only Knight, sorry Casey. I hope to have a stompa built and three color painted, so no threat to Mike. My Orks are super fun and I have miles to go before I sleep on my list, but oh so fun.

Teddy is bring DA. He is not on FB.

I will bring Orks.

I'll be bringing my Bully Boyz. Have fun with 25 fearless WS5 Meganobz.....

-Painboy
-Werid Boy: level 2

-10 boys, truckk
-10 boys, truckk

-3 Scortcha buggies

-4 Lobbas
-3 Tracktor cannons

-5 Meganobz, trukk
-5 Meganobz, trukk
-5 Meganobz, trukk
-5 Meganobz, trukk
-5 Meganobz, trukk

I shall be bringing my never gonna win, monsta mash list...

-Hive Tyrant, wings, x2 twin linked devourers, hive commander, thorax swarm: electroshock grubs
-Old One Eye

-x30 gaunts, x20 devourers, x10 fleshborers
-Tervigon, thorax swarm: shreddershard beetles, cluster spines, crushing claws

-Haruspex, adrenal glands, toxin sacs

-Crone

-Tyrannofex, electroshock grubs
-Exocrine
-Mawlock

 Julnlecs wrote:
Will you be allowing any of the new space wolves?

The Stormfang flying dumpster will be in for sure, the codex is expected to drop the day before the event though, so most likely not.

That being said, if the SW book is anything like the Ork book, where the changes were not really sweeping but more small tweaks throughout, it might be ok. I want people to play, so if playing with the new book means more people will be inclined to come, then I could be convinced.

As an Ork player, after seeing the new book I thought that it would have been fine if GW had released it right before the tournament a couple months ago. What do you think, Mike? Ork book no big deal from a changeover perspective?

If you like getting your ass kicked then no, it wasn't really a big deal. Id say no go on the new dex becuase it does take a few read throughs to understand all the changes to basic rules such as mob rule. I know I played it wrong the first few games.

However it is a marine dex so they will be pretty good regardless. I say go for it. I got enough powerclaws now to deal with anything.

I mean whats the worst that happens, they win a local RTT?

 MikeFox wrote:
I mean whats the worst that happens, they win a local RTT?

No, orks don't win it, I do.

I'll be bringing an unbound knights lance formation, knight and a vendetta