You can pick before, after or during the heresy. I mean overall who was the nastiest f**ker out of all of them? Gonna go ahead and nominate Horus or Lorgar here.

XXXX

Night Haunter, easily. Easily. Lorgar was actually a bit sympathetic with legit motivations and in his mind, attempting to better humanity through the worship of true gods. Horus did go cuckoo, but that's because he was bloody possessed and manipulated by Erebus. Previously Horus was among the best Primarchs and a great person.

 Wyzilla wrote:
Night Haunter, easily. Easily. Lorgar was actually a bit sympathetic with legit motivations and in his mind, attempting to better humanity through the worship of true gods. Horus did go cuckoo, but that's because he was bloody possessed and manipulated by Erebus. Previously Horus was among the best Primarchs and a great person.

Yes I did rather forget that utterly psychopathic Demigod who seems to have confined himself he is batman. But seriously have you ever read Betrayer? Some of the atrocities Lorgar sanctions are beyond the nighthaunter. Also Horus' virus bombing was barbaric to the extreme, his own personal fighting style is geared around causing as much pain as possible. He was a controlled evil before. Over the course of the heresy he became...unrestrained.

XXXX

Fulgrim. Easily, in my eyes. He's responsible for death of two loyalist primarchs (well, death and one "mortally wounding that's slowly healing but wait Robute wasn't a perpetual we are probably just kidding ourselves).

Because of his extreme vanity and arrogance, Slaanesh found his way into his heart and would have even if Horus hadn't tried to start a rebellion, there is no scenario in which the Chaos Gods didn't claim his soul.

SRSFACE wrote:
Fulgrim. Easily, in my eyes. He's responsible for death of two loyalist primarchs (well, death and one "mortally wounding that's slowly healing but wait Robute wasn't a perpetual we are probably just kidding ourselves).

Because of his extreme vanity and arrogance, Slaanesh found his way into his heart and would have even if Horus hadn't tried to start a rebellion, there is no scenario in which the Chaos Gods didn't claim his soul.

Killing someone is not an especially evil feat in 40/30k. The other primarchs murdered hundreds if not thousands of their own sons and cousins, which is arguably worse than killing ones brother. The events of those primarchs deaths just happen to have a larger impact on the storyline than the death of a single Astarte. It doesn't make him more evil.

XXXX

SRSFACE wrote:
but wait Robute wasn't a perpetual we are probably just kidding ourselves.

I dunno, they craped out pixie dust onto Vulkan to make him one, Guilliman being a perpatoot is just the sort of asspull I could see them doing. Though it wouldn't be as bad I suppose, since Guilliman having miraculous healing powers already had some basis in the setting, even if only by rumor spread by pilgrims.

Ive got to put my vote on the Night Haunter. Just from his actions in Vulkan Lives and Unremembered Empire. He amongst other things mentally broke down a primarch into a raving lunatic.

That's so hard to define.

Peoples' definitions of 'evil' can be so subjective that it can start getting pretty weird.

I think Gulliman is a definite contender, though. The Night Haunter at least understood how f--ed up he was. Gulliman committed genocide on multiple occasions, profited from the death and destruction of his own family members not only willingly but gladly, and was the most loyal supporter of the tyrannical regime that is the Imperium. Not only that, he commits all of his acts of barbarism without a shred of conscience, doubt, or remorse. Granted, he does pretty much what all the Primarchs do, but he does it with far more gusto. The level of self-delusion he has going on has got to compound the atrocities he commits, at least in my book.

 Jimsolo wrote:
The Night Haunter at least understood how f--ed up he was.

Don't you think it's worse realizing you're fethed up and evil, but then continuing to do it anyway rather than doing what you've been engineered and educated to think is good?
Really though, Guilliman seemed to do good by the people, creating generally nice worlds to live in with trade and industry. I don't think there's a whole lot more "gusto" about than any of the other Primarchs except for the ones concerned with their own things, like Magnus.

GoingtoHell wrote:

SRSFACE wrote:
Fulgrim. Easily, in my eyes. He's responsible for death of two loyalist primarchs (well, death and one "mortally wounding that's slowly healing but wait Robute wasn't a perpetual we are probably just kidding ourselves).

Because of his extreme vanity and arrogance, Slaanesh found his way into his heart and would have even if Horus hadn't tried to start a rebellion, there is no scenario in which the Chaos Gods didn't claim his soul.

Killing someone is not an especially evil feat in 40/30k. The other primarchs murdered hundreds if not thousands of their own sons and cousins, which is arguably worse than killing ones brother. The events of those primarchs deaths just happen to have a larger impact on the storyline than the death of a single Astarte. It doesn't make him more evil.

XXXX

The killing TWO primarchs thing? That's kind of a big deal, and has had a greater impact on the general state of shambles the Imperium is in than even Abaddon's 13 failcrusades. The Iron Hands are still aimless and the most powerful legion in the Ultramarines and all their successors is without the greatest mind for battle they ever had, meaning they are stuck in perpetuity adhering to old principles, being unchanging for millenia and generally being inneffective at actually propelling the interests of mankind.

But, generally speaking, I consider fratricide especially against your most beloved brother to be a huge effing deal.

Then, you know, the utter madness of becoming the most powerful Slaaneshi being in the cosmos. Sacrificing tons and tons and tons of soldiers because it's amusing and fits your sick scheme of what it means to be perfect? Yeah, that's pretty evil.

SRSFACE wrote:

GoingtoHell wrote:

SRSFACE wrote:
Fulgrim. Easily, in my eyes. He's responsible for death of two loyalist primarchs (well, death and one "mortally wounding that's slowly healing but wait Robute wasn't a perpetual we are probably just kidding ourselves).

Because of his extreme vanity and arrogance, Slaanesh found his way into his heart and would have even if Horus hadn't tried to start a rebellion, there is no scenario in which the Chaos Gods didn't claim his soul.

Killing someone is not an especially evil feat in 40/30k. The other primarchs murdered hundreds if not thousands of their own sons and cousins, which is arguably worse than killing ones brother. The events of those primarchs deaths just happen to have a larger impact on the storyline than the death of a single Astarte. It doesn't make him more evil.

XXXX

The killing TWO primarchs thing? That's kind of a big deal, and has had a greater impact on the general state of shambles the Imperium is in than even Abaddon's 13 failcrusades. The Iron Hands are still aimless and the most powerful legion in the Ultramarines and all their successors is without the greatest mind for battle they ever had, meaning they are stuck in perpetuity adhering to old principles, being unchanging for millenia and generally being inneffective at actually propelling the interests of mankind.

But, generally speaking, I consider fratricide especially against your most beloved brother to be a huge effing deal.

Then, you know, the utter madness of becoming the most powerful Slaaneshi being in the cosmos. Sacrificing tons and tons and tons of soldiers because it's amusing and fits your sick scheme of what it means to be perfect? Yeah, that's pretty evil.

I think it's cute that you think they're "failcrusades". You'd make a very content and oblivious Imperial citizen.

 Brother Payne wrote:

SRSFACE wrote:

GoingtoHell wrote:

SRSFACE wrote:
Fulgrim. Easily, in my eyes. He's responsible for death of two loyalist primarchs (well, death and one "mortally wounding that's slowly healing but wait Robute wasn't a perpetual we are probably just kidding ourselves).

Because of his extreme vanity and arrogance, Slaanesh found his way into his heart and would have even if Horus hadn't tried to start a rebellion, there is no scenario in which the Chaos Gods didn't claim his soul.

Killing someone is not an especially evil feat in 40/30k. The other primarchs murdered hundreds if not thousands of their own sons and cousins, which is arguably worse than killing ones brother. The events of those primarchs deaths just happen to have a larger impact on the storyline than the death of a single Astarte. It doesn't make him more evil.

XXXX

The killing TWO primarchs thing? That's kind of a big deal, and has had a greater impact on the general state of shambles the Imperium is in than even Abaddon's 13 failcrusades. The Iron Hands are still aimless and the most powerful legion in the Ultramarines and all their successors is without the greatest mind for battle they ever had, meaning they are stuck in perpetuity adhering to old principles, being unchanging for millenia and generally being inneffective at actually propelling the interests of mankind.

But, generally speaking, I consider fratricide especially against your most beloved brother to be a huge effing deal.

Then, you know, the utter madness of becoming the most powerful Slaaneshi being in the cosmos. Sacrificing tons and tons and tons of soldiers because it's amusing and fits your sick scheme of what it means to be perfect? Yeah, that's pretty evil.

I think it's cute that you think they're "failcrusades". You'd make a very content and oblivious Imperial citizen.

Yeah, that joke got old a year after it started. Same with all the other Abaddon jokes, which started because the model sucked. The character meanwhile plays a mean game of chess and has pretty much crippled the Cadian Gate, although from what I've heard about the 13th Black Crusade, that could change considering its setting.

Mortarion, all the others were other possessed, tricked by Xenos/Daemons, Crazy or betrayed by the Emperor. Except for Mortarion, he was just an ass.

SRSFACE wrote:

GoingtoHell wrote:

SRSFACE wrote:
Fulgrim. Easily, in my eyes. He's responsible for death of two loyalist primarchs (well, death and one "mortally wounding that's slowly healing but wait Robute wasn't a perpetual we are probably just kidding ourselves).

Because of his extreme vanity and arrogance, Slaanesh found his way into his heart and would have even if Horus hadn't tried to start a rebellion, there is no scenario in which the Chaos Gods didn't claim his soul.

Killing someone is not an especially evil feat in 40/30k. The other primarchs murdered hundreds if not thousands of their own sons and cousins, which is arguably worse than killing ones brother. The events of those primarchs deaths just happen to have a larger impact on the storyline than the death of a single Astarte. It doesn't make him more evil.

XXXX

The killing TWO primarchs thing? That's kind of a big deal, and has had a greater impact on the general state of shambles the Imperium is in than even Abaddon's 13 failcrusades. The Iron Hands are still aimless and the most powerful legion in the Ultramarines and all their successors is without the greatest mind for battle they ever had, meaning they are stuck in perpetuity adhering to old principles, being unchanging for millenia and generally being inneffective at actually propelling the interests of mankind.

But, generally speaking, I consider fratricide especially against your most beloved brother to be a huge effing deal.

Then, you know, the utter madness of becoming the most powerful Slaaneshi being in the cosmos. Sacrificing tons and tons and tons of soldiers because it's amusing and fits your sick scheme of what it means to be perfect? Yeah, that's pretty evil.

except the ultramarines haven't been ineffectual. I think assuming the codex Astartes is some rock hard "how to fight a battle" manual is a mistake. I don't wanna derail this thread so I'm gonna start another.

sanguinus

 BlaxicanX wrote:
sanguinus

You must know something about Sanguinius that I don't know.

Wasn't he just basically a whiny seer?

It really depends on your definition of evil, two people could view the same action as good or evil as it's all down to perspective. I'd go with dorn as when he did evil he always washed his hands of it. In the last remembrancer he even doesn't blink at murdering an innocent friend of his

What is "evil" anyway?
Is there reason to the rhyme?
Without "evil"there can be no "good",
So it must be good to be evil. Sometimes.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Furyou Miko wrote:

 BlaxicanX wrote:
sanguinus

You must know something about Sanguinius that I don't know.

Wasn't he just basically a whiny seer?

He betrayed Sheba.

Sorry, wrong setting.

 Brother Payne wrote:
I think it's cute that you think they're "failcrusades". You'd make a very content and oblivious Imperial citizen.

I think it's morally wrong of you to think beliggerent, flippant bullying by way of being a codescending jerk is acceptable adult behavior, while we're on the subject of things we personally think that have nothing at all to do with this thread.

OK, if we have to define good and evil, how about this?

Good is acting in a selfless manner even when it may bring harm to yourself.

Evil is acting in a selfish manner even when it may bring harm to others.

Night Haunter for me.

 Furyou Miko wrote:
OK, if we have to define good and evil, how about this?

Good is acting in a selfless manner even when it may bring harm to yourself.

Evil is acting in a selfish manner even when it may bring harm to others.

sanguinus then

Under the dumb new HH novel fluff probably Konrad Curze, which is tragic because the character's moral ambiguity was always a big part of him in the more well-written times of yore.

Otherwise, Fulgrim.

 Furyou Miko wrote:

 BlaxicanX wrote:
sanguinus

You must know something about Sanguinius that I don't know.

Wasn't he just basically a whiny seer?

Sanguinius? Whiny?

He was more heroic and good-hearted than Jesus (Not hyperbole).

"More good-hearted than Jesus (not hyperbole)

You should probably tone down the hyperbole, man. And if you're dead serious, maybe you should realize 40k is just a game/universe setting and saying things blatantly sacrilegious is patently offensive.

 Jimsolo wrote:
That's so hard to define.

Peoples' definitions of 'evil' can be so subjective that it can start getting pretty weird.

I think Gulliman is a definite contender, though. The Night Haunter at least understood how f--ed up he was. Gulliman committed genocide on multiple occasions, profited from the death and destruction of his own family members not only willingly but gladly, and was the most loyal supporter of the tyrannical regime that is the Imperium. Not only that, he commits all of his acts of barbarism without a shred of conscience, doubt, or remorse. Granted, he does pretty much what all the Primarchs do, but he does it with far more gusto. The level of self-delusion he has going on has got to compound the atrocities he commits, at least in my book.

That's a rather interesting point of view, but I'm not sure I can agree with it. Guilliman actively worked to make the worlds he brought into the Imperium better than they were for everyone.

My pick is probably Mortarion. All the traitor Primarchs turned from the Imperium and brought it into a bloody civil war. Only one of them didn't need some outside influence to do so.

I am not well read in all of the primarchs, but from what I have read, I would say Fulgrim is the most evil.

I would also say Sanguinius is the most heroic, and good primarch.

 Void__Dragon wrote:

 Jimsolo wrote:
That's so hard to define.

Peoples' definitions of 'evil' can be so subjective that it can start getting pretty weird.

I think Gulliman is a definite contender, though. The Night Haunter at least understood how f--ed up he was. Gulliman committed genocide on multiple occasions, profited from the death and destruction of his own family members not only willingly but gladly, and was the most loyal supporter of the tyrannical regime that is the Imperium. Not only that, he commits all of his acts of barbarism without a shred of conscience, doubt, or remorse. Granted, he does pretty much what all the Primarchs do, but he does it with far more gusto. The level of self-delusion he has going on has got to compound the atrocities he commits, at least in my book.

That's a rather interesting point of view, but I'm not sure I can agree with it. Guilliman actively worked to make the worlds he brought into the Imperium better than they were for everyone.

My pick is probably Mortarion. All the traitor Primarchs turned from the Imperium and brought it into a bloody civil war. Only one of them didn't need some outside influence to do so.

This also applies to Perturabo...

Mortarion and Perturabo turned on the emporer for literally no reason. Absolutely unjustifiable, at least the other traitor primarchs could give at worst a weak argument for turning against the imperium.

Read Angel Exterminatus.

SRSFACE wrote:
"More good-hearted than Jesus (not hyperbole)

You should probably tone down the hyperbole, man. And if you're dead serious, maybe you should realize 40k is just a game/universe setting and saying things blatantly sacrilegious is patently offensive.

I think it was a joke...

XXXX

does this who was the most evil primarch include the 2 lost ones? because im pretty sure those two would be pretty high up there considering theor brothers refuse to talk of them.

and also Omegon is the Evilist of them all for me. at first Alpha/Omega swapped to horus for the greater good but Omegon in deliverance lost is just a dick. he proved he was in it for himself. (not saying too much because of spoilers but those who have read it know what im talking about)

 Void__Dragon wrote:
Read Angel Exterminatus.

Done. What specifically in there are you referring to?

Nothing the emperor did pushed Perturabo to turn traitor, it was completely him

Its easier to do a list:
Horus- felt betrayed by the emperor/ abandoned. Was sad about the interex. Was under huge stress.
Gulliman- was girly man.
Lorgar- was a whiny bitch. And the most evil.
Dorn- was have anger issues.
Sanguineis- was a (little bit pompous)
Fulgrim ( NO NOT FULL CRUM AUTO CORRECT) - was (and I continue to believe) is, possessed.
Purturabo ( or whatever) - was like "yo, fack dis, I gotta gets me sum kaos.
Magnus- tryed to save horus, got pissed with russ because of Horus.
Russ- SPACE BEASTIALITY.
lion el Johnson- who cares.
Curse- a good guy/ night haunter- you are pain, mwoo ha ha.
Mortarion- liked Horus.
Alpharius- was want help.
Angron- was stiffled by the emperor taking him away from the battle..
Vulkan- all round good guy.
Manus- same as above.
Khan- same as above.

Its too generic question. Most of the primarchs did cruel, brutal things, diference is only justification. Of course, there are differencies. When Corax made hundreds of infamous clones it wasnt intentional. Still, he killed all of them. Was it mercy or murder? Is Konrad evil or just batfeth crazy and finding a little more stretched excuses than "for good of the Imperium"?

And of course, HH books tend to make characters very difficult to judge, because Konrad Curze is great example of tragic antihero transformed into plain villain by bad writing and inconsistency.

I nominate Fulgrim from what he did to become a Daemon.

Horus- felt betrayed by the emperor/ abandoned. Was sad about the interex. Was under huge stress. and was manipulated immensly by Erebus
Gulliman- was girly man. He created the largest empire within the imperium had the most compliances and strove to make ultramar a haven
Lorgar- was a whiny bitch. And the most evil. But was he? yes he understood what the real gods wanted but he wasnt fully prepared to take the plunge it was only when he was pushed by Kor Phaeron and Erebus that he did
Dorn- was have anger issues. he was stubborn and impatient, not so much angry all of the primarchs were angry to some extent
Sanguineis- was a (little bit pompous) true but read angel exterminatus
Fulgrim - was (and I continue to believe) is, possessed. but even before his possesion he was arrogant and vain it was his own faults that meant he was able to kill his most beloved brother
Purturabo ( or whatever) - was like "yo, fack dis, I gotta gets me sum kaos. true he was willing to turn on the emperor or no apparent reason
Magnus- tryed to save horus, got pissed with russ because of Horus. he got pissed with russ because of russ. all magnus wanted to do was learn everything and warn the emperor but because of his ignorance he failed to see the bigger picture
Russ- SPACE BEASTIALITY. probably one of the true good guys he was misunderstood due to his unrelenting force when prosecuting his campaigns
lion el Johnson- who cares. a lot of people care, you cant just overlook someone who ignored his best friend/mentor and gave him the crap jobs. some would argue that his inability to understand people led him to have some of the most evil actions he turnt half his legion against himslef for christ sake
Curse- a good guy/ night haunter- you are pain, mwoo ha ha. the man is a straight up psychopath
Mortarion- liked Horus. so did most of the primarchs so why did mortarion really side?
Alpharius- was want help. Alpharius was fighting the greater battle (selflessly i might add) but Omegon had alterior motives (not going into it due to spoilers and such)
Angron- was stiffled by the emperor taking him away from the battle.. but he didnt really like horus did he? i see angron as an innocent soul he is too simple minded to realise what is going on around him and instead just consigned himself to bloodshed
Vulkan- all round good guy. considering he is all about "protecting the weak" id say he was a pretty good guy, didnt really do anything too drastic
Manus- same as above. yeah id agree with that although his stubborness got him killed in the end
Khan- same as above. the only crime Khan is guilty of is not having enough material written about him
Corax- i feel sorry for corax, true he was impatient (righly so) but all he wanted to do was rebuild his shattered legion and get revenge then omegon came in and buggered it up for him

so those are my comments

I'll just throw out my ratings

Most Evil, least to most.

20. Vulkan.
19. Alphie
18. Magnus
17. Corvus
16. Jagga
15. Sanguin
14. Lorgar
13. XI.
12. Manny
11. Dorn
10. Angron
9. II
8. He's lion to you
7. Horus
6. Mortie
5. Fulgie
4. Rusk
3. Tarbo
2. Rowboat

Why? does 2 and 11 come into it?

Logar strikes me as the most evil though after the heresy he doesn't show up very much which I find weird.

 the shrouded lord wrote:
Its easier to do a list:
Horus- felt betrayed by the emperor/ abandoned. Was sad about the interex. Was under huge stress.
Gulliman- was girly man.
Lorgar- was a whiny bitch. And the most evil.
Dorn- was have anger issues.
Sanguineis- was a (little bit pompous)
Fulgrim ( NO NOT FULL CRUM AUTO CORRECT) - was (and I continue to believe) is, possessed.
Purturabo ( or whatever) - was like "yo, fack dis, I gotta gets me sum kaos.
Magnus- tryed to save horus, got pissed with russ because of Horus.
Russ- SPACE BEASTIALITY.
lion el Johnson- who cares.
Curse- a good guy/ night haunter- you are pain, mwoo ha ha.
Mortarion- liked Horus.
Alpharius- was want help.
Angron- was stiffled by the emperor taking him away from the battle..
Vulkan- all round good guy.
Manus- same as above.
Khan- same as above.

How was Guilliman 'girly' exactly?

If you don't like him, then say that. He does not strike me as particularly feminine.

He liked building stuff instead of breaking it?

I object to the idea that being girly is evil, personally.

I think Fulgrim, he tricked his brother into helping him so he could take all his power and kill him, for his own gain, as well as killing two of his other brothers.

 BrotherHaraldus wrote:

 the shrouded lord wrote:
Its easier to do a list:
Horus- felt betrayed by the emperor/ abandoned. Was sad about the interex. Was under huge stress.
Gulliman- was girly man.
Lorgar- was a whiny bitch. And the most evil.
Dorn- was have anger issues.
Sanguineis- was a (little bit pompous)
Fulgrim ( NO NOT FULL CRUM AUTO CORRECT) - was (and I continue to believe) is, possessed.
Purturabo ( or whatever) - was like "yo, fack dis, I gotta gets me sum kaos.
Magnus- tryed to save horus, got pissed with russ because of Horus.
Russ- SPACE BEASTIALITY.
lion el Johnson- who cares.
Curse- a good guy/ night haunter- you are pain, mwoo ha ha.
Mortarion- liked Horus.
Alpharius- was want help.
Angron- was stiffled by the emperor taking him away from the battle..
Vulkan- all round good guy.
Manus- same as above.
Khan- same as above.

How was Guilliman 'girly' exactly?

If you don't like him, then say that. He does not strike me as particularly feminine.

Given that the Ultramarines are heavily based on the Roman Empire/Roman Republic, I can't see girly and Guilliman going together very well. If there is one thing a Roman Legionnaire isn't, it's 'girly' (being arguably some of the finest trained and disciplined troops in history, and having carved out one of the largest empires in history).

As you note, people don't have to like him, but then in many respects he's sort of the axiom made flesh, "Tactics wins battles, logistics wins wars." Which can make him seem less manly (although having read Caesar's Conquest of Gaul, Caesar was more of a man than any of the 'fighty' primarchs will ever be) because he isn't shoot first and then ask questions. Pyrrhic victories are stupid, and he actually understood this.

People call him girly because he's an ass fighter for a Primarch and has a spotlessly clean legion of perfect pretty boys.

That's the conception.

Anyway, anyone who seriously would consider Guilliman higher than like... well any of the traitor primarchs sans Magnus needs to take a break from their philosophy classes.

 BlaxicanX wrote:
People call him girly because he's an ass fighter for a Primarch and has a spotlessly clean legion of perfect pretty boys.

I am offended. Bad people.

 BlaxicanX wrote:


Anyway, anyone who seriously would consider Guilliman higher than like... well any of the traitor primarchs sans Magnus needs to take a break from their philosophy classes.

Eh... Guilliman was Angron's direct opposite. Brains VS brawn, clean armour VS armour so bloody so the original colour isn't really discernable. Nothing wrong in that?

No, Angron was a complete psychopath who reveled in the suffering of others and hated everything, including his own legion. Guilliman was a relatively normal and balanced person who basically did what his commanding officer (the Emperor) asked of him to the best of his ability and nothing more.

On the scale of "evil", they aren't even close to being comparable unless you're willing to jump through all the philosophical logic-hoops, hence my statement.

 BlaxicanX wrote:
No, Angron was a complete psychopath who reveled in the suffering of others and hated everything, including his own legion. Guilliman was a relatively normal and balanced person who basically did what his commanding officer (the Emperor) asked of him to the best of his ability and nothing more.

On the scale of "evil", they aren't even close to being comparable unless you're willing to jump through all the philosophical logic-hoops, hence my statement.

Hence why I said opposite. That is, that they were different in every way.

Fair enough.

 MrBlackledge wrote:
does this who was the most evil primarch include the 2 lost ones? because im pretty sure those two would be pretty high up there considering theor brothers refuse to talk of them.

We still don't know anything about them or their legions. There's unsubstantiated rumors that Leman Russ was sent to exterminate one of them for betraying the imperium, but it's still just rumors.

I personally like to think one of them is even now rolling around in the Black Library with his Eldar buddies. Fluff-wise, I think it'd make sense that not all Primarchs were flung to human-inhabited worlds. It'd make sense to me one of them could have been raised by another race and he refused to join the Emperor to conquer the galaxy in the name of mankind, having grown too fond of his surrogate race.

And we all know the 11th legion is the Ostrogoths.

SRSFACE wrote:

 MrBlackledge wrote:
does this who was the most evil primarch include the 2 lost ones? because im pretty sure those two would be pretty high up there considering theor brothers refuse to talk of them.

We still don't know anything about them or their legions. There's unsubstantiated rumors that Leman Russ was sent to exterminate one of them for betraying the imperium, but it's still just rumors.

I personally like to think one of them is even now rolling around in the Black Library with his Eldar buddies. Fluff-wise, I think it'd make sense that not all Primarchs were flung to human-inhabited worlds. It'd make sense to me one of them could have been raised by another race and he refused to join the Emperor to conquer the galaxy in the name of mankind, having grown too fond of his surrogate race.

And we all know the 11th legion is the Ostrogoths.

IIRC they are known as the "forgotten" and the "Purged" so one might have very well been involved with Xenos hence the purge one may have have been lost in he Warp hence the forgotten. one thing that is generally agreed about them is that the stragglers from the legions joined the UM's hence the numbers

"For evil to flourish, it only requires good men to do nothing."

I don't know who the most evil was, but the least, was Russ, when I think of the quote above. I don't even care for that one, at all. He's #3 of my most disliked primarchs, #1 being dorn, and #2 being Horus.

 MrBlackledge wrote:
one thing that is generally agreed about them is that the stragglers from the legions joined the UM's hence the numbers

This is not generally agree about them. It was a rumour said by a bitter Word Bearer. The author who wrote it (ADB) has stated that it was only ever intended as a spiteful rumour and was not true.

 MrBlackledge wrote:
Horus- felt betrayed by the emperor/ abandoned. Was sad about the interex. Was under huge stress. and was manipulated immensly by Erebus
Gulliman- was girly man. He created the largest empire within the imperium had the most compliances and strove to make ultramar a haven
Lorgar- was a whiny bitch. And the most evil. But was he? yes he understood what the real gods wanted but he wasnt fully prepared to take the plunge it was only when he was pushed by Kor Phaeron and Erebus that he did
Dorn- was have anger issues. he was stubborn and impatient, not so much angry all of the primarchs were angry to some extent
Sanguineis- was a (little bit pompous) true but read angel exterminatus
Fulgrim - was (and I continue to believe) is, possessed. but even before his possesion he was arrogant and vain it was his own faults that meant he was able to kill his most beloved brother
Purturabo ( or whatever) - was like "yo, fack dis, I gotta gets me sum kaos. true he was willing to turn on the emperor or no apparent reason
Magnus- tryed to save horus, got pissed with russ because of Horus. he got pissed with russ because of russ. all magnus wanted to do was learn everything and warn the emperor but because of his ignorance he failed to see the bigger picture
Russ- SPACE BEASTIALITY. probably one of the true good guys he was misunderstood due to his unrelenting force when prosecuting his campaigns
lion el Johnson- who cares. a lot of people care, you cant just overlook someone who ignored his best friend/mentor and gave him the crap jobs. some would argue that his inability to understand people led him to have some of the most evil actions he turnt half his legion against himslef for christ sake
Curse- a good guy/ night haunter- you are pain, mwoo ha ha. the man is a straight up psychopath
Mortarion- liked Horus. so did most of the primarchs so why did mortarion really side?
Alpharius- was want help. Alpharius was fighting the greater battle (selflessly i might add) but Omegon had alterior motives (not going into it due to spoilers and such)
Angron- was stiffled by the emperor taking him away from the battle.. but he didnt really like horus did he? i see angron as an innocent soul he is too simple minded to realise what is going on around him and instead just consigned himself to bloodshed
Vulkan- all round good guy. considering he is all about "protecting the weak" id say he was a pretty good guy, didnt really do anything too drastic
Manus- same as above. yeah id agree with that although his stubborness got him killed in the end
Khan- same as above. the only crime Khan is guilty of is not having enough material written about him
Corax- i feel sorry for corax, true he was impatient (righly so) but all he wanted to do was rebuild his shattered legion and get revenge then omegon came in and buggered it up for him

so those are my comments

Your exactly right.
TBH: I was posting at 3 am and couldn't remember what lion did.
I also forgot the existence of corax.
Oh, yeah, russ was awesome, I just don't like space wolves
And again, was half asleep.
Gulliman, I called girly man because everyone knows how steadfast gullimen was.

I still prefer to believe dorn is still alive as he is one of my favourite primarchs.
Hmmm, I didnt know that about omegon, thanks for the knowledge.
Mortarion was an ass, I just don't like him.

Erebus was the single most evil person in the entire setting of 40k.
Did he end up dying?

SomeRandomEvilGuy wrote:

 MrBlackledge wrote:
one thing that is generally agreed about them is that the stragglers from the legions joined the UM's hence the numbers

This is not generally agree about them. It was a rumour said by a bitter Word Bearer. The author who wrote it (ADB) has stated that it was only ever intended as a spiteful rumour and was not true.

in that case i retract my statement


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 the shrouded lord wrote:
Hmmm, I didnt know that about omegon, thanks for the knowledge.

Read the books Legion and Deliverance Lost. honestly Deliverance lost is one o my Favourie books of the series so much so that im actually starting up an RG army

Vulgar wrote:
"For evil to flourish, it only requires good men to do nothing."

I don't know who the most evil was, but the least, was Russ, when I think of the quote above. I don't even care for that one, at all. He's #3 of my most disliked primarchs, #1 being dorn, and #2 being Horus.

Leman Russ doing things actively drove probably the least malevolent of those who would become traitor Primarchs to joining Horus, though.

I mean, he's no Mortarion, but he's no Sanguinius either.

 Void__Dragon wrote:

Vulgar wrote:
"For evil to flourish, it only requires good men to do nothing."

I don't know who the most evil was, but the least, was Russ, when I think of the quote above. I don't even care for that one, at all. He's #3 of my most disliked primarchs, #1 being dorn, and #2 being Horus.

Leman Russ doing things actively drove probably the least malevolent of those who would become traitor Primarchs to joining Horus, though.

I mean, he's no Mortarion, but he's no Sanguinius either.

Completely agreed. I still believe he is werewolf Dick Cheney. He believes what he does is right, as it fits into his own rigid, and simplistic structure. "Psykers bad unless wolf". He's all black and white, and he can't acknowledge anything outside of his own viewpoint, or the one who commands him. He's the hound, who attacks on command, even his own litter mates.

I feel that people may be treating Perturabo a bit unfairly saying that he was "like yo, fack dis, I gotta gets me sum kaos. true he was willing to turn on the emperor or no apparent reason."

He was constantly forced to split up his forces/sons to garrison newly conquered worlds to the point that they were stereotyped to be the best at sieges and garrisons. I'm not surprised that after constantly digging trenches and whatnot, killing became a source of enjoyment, breaking the routine of digging and building and so on and so forth.

His brothers hardly ever acknowledged him and constantly used him (Russ and the Khan in merely calling him just the "comrade" when he had figured out the best way to avoid an Ork Warboss's defences, Fulgrim in Angel Exterminatus, and Horus I feel definitely manipulated him hence why Perturabo felt that his and his sons' safest course of action after the slaughter at Olympia was to side with Horus as he was certain Big Daddy E wasn't going to approve).

In short, It just seems like his fall away from the Emperor was years in the making with all the bitterness and resentment that had to have arisen. Makes as much sense to me as Luther giving the bird to Johnson.

Not nearly as aware of the whole story as much as I should be (which is very odd considering I've played for a while though mostly just warhammer fantasy). However of what little I knew about the horus heresy (I'd know more but for some reason the HH didn't interest me that much more than getting a basic idea of it) i felt pretty bad for magnus.

Magnus: "Hey let's help the emperor and warn of horus's betrayal!"

Horus: "Hey Leman Russ you have permission to kill that traitor from the emperor."

Leman Russ: "Sweet! I always hated that guy. Hur, dur, dur."

Didn't magnus go into the eye of terror because he had to so his legion could survive? Anyway this has made me hate Leman Russ quite a bit.

------------

So yeah I'd need to thoroughly read the HH to get a good understanding of who was really good and bad. Not sure if I care enough about the HH anymore to do that though.

Lion was petty about his plans and his style of doing things but the guy grew up in the wild, he has poor people skills.

Fulgrim was possessed.

Perturabo thought he had legitimate justification.

Khan was good pretty much.

Russ did evil things (Killing off 2 Legions and their Primarchs) but he was just doing his job and following orders. I'm sure he didn't relish the chore.

Dorn was good.

Kurze thought he had legit reasons but he was still pretty fethed up.

Sanguinius had a moment of possible selfishness by concealing the BA flaw but he did it to preserve the lives of his sons rather than his own.

Ferrus Manus was pretty good. Bit of a temper but when it came to it, he stayed loyal.

Angron was pretty fethed up but he had things in his head making him that way.

Guilliman...debate as you wish. Various opinions but generally "good."

Mortarion turned traitor to relieve the pain his sons were going through.

Magnus was forced into Chaos. He was quite happy in his tower with his books.

Horus was crazy and manipulated.

Lorgar thought he had legit reasons (shunned by father and brothers and punished for venerating the Emperor), but he sought to bring his father's great empire crashing down around them because he got a slap on the wrist and the dark gods told him to. He also is noted in Betrayer as "pulling the Thunderhawk out of the sky out of pure spite" after having thrown his mace into the hull.

Corax was generally a good guy, just impatient, ironically.

Vulkan was probably the most noble Primarch after Sanguinius. He was really humble and down to earth from what I know and this reflects his upbringing in a tight-knit community.

Alpharius/Omegon turned traitor to try and end Chaos for good.


Out of 18 only 2 can be considered evil. Kurze thought he was justified, but Lorgar was just being a spiteful t*rd.

 Deadshot wrote:

Russ did evil things (Killing off 2 Legions and their Primarchs) but he was just doing his job and following orders. I'm sure he didn't relish the chore.

Only a coward utters the phrase "I was just following orders" to absolve oneself of the moral repercussions of one's actions.

 Void__Dragon wrote:

 Deadshot wrote:

Russ did evil things (Killing off 2 Legions and their Primarchs) but he was just doing his job and following orders. I'm sure he didn't relish the chore.

Only a coward utters the phrase "I was just following orders" to absolve oneself of the moral repercussions of one's actions.

He didn't actually say it but it remains a fact. He was given a direct order from the Emperor to do it, he had no choice in the matter. He wasn't trying to absolve anything because he had no moral repercussions. Morals in 30/40k come down to "Anything that harms the state is illegal. Anything that protects the state is legal." And by the Big E's Decree, Russ protected the state.

By Horus' decree, I think you meant.

The Emperor wanted Magnus brought back unharmed.

 Void__Dragon wrote:
By Horus' decree, I think you meant.

The Emperor wanted Magnus brought back unharmed.

that too but I'm referring to the destruction of the II and XI Legions.

We have no knowledge of what transpired there.

 Deadshot wrote:

 Void__Dragon wrote:
By Horus' decree, I think you meant.

The Emperor wanted Magnus brought back unharmed.

that too but I'm referring to the destruction of the II and XI Legions.

For all we know, they could be the evil ones.

Evil really doesn't exist in 40k, neither does good cause just about everyone is willing to do pretty bad things to further their cause.

The most sociopathic primarch would be a better answer. For that i'd say Fulgrim and Guilliman, selfish self serving and backstabbing. Fulgrim shouldn't have to be explained, papa smirf abandoned the Emperor, Sanguinus, Dorn, and the Khan to Horus and then came, usurped power, virus bombed half the Imperium, and cripled the legions.

 Imperial_Arson wrote:

 Deadshot wrote:

 Void__Dragon wrote:
By Horus' decree, I think you meant.

The Emperor wanted Magnus brought back unharmed.

that too but I'm referring to the destruction of the II and XI Legions.

For all we know, they could be the evil ones.

Likely, but this puts Russ on par with Fulgrim in terms of evilness if you go by Primarch kill count (which I don't).

quote]
Gulliman- was girly man.[

I thought he was called "girly man" because his last name, if incorrectly pronounced, could sound phonetically similar to that phrase. I frequently see him called "Rowboat Girlyman".

On-Topic, I would have to go with Fulgrim. Perfectionism and elitism aside, he betrayed his father and brothers so he could keep indulging in excess.

Kurze.

He and his Legion did not just kill. They tortured and maimed, then tortured some more. Then perhaps add you to their vehicles armor as decoration.

It started as a way of enforcing justice or compliance, but the truth of it was he ENJOYED it.

The other Primarchs did these things, however it was usually a means to an end. With Kurze it was for fun.

That, my friend, is evil.

Curze was severely mentally ill, he did it because he had a disease that compelled him to do so. The same can be said of Angron.

What excuse do the more sane Primarchs have?

[spoiler]He and his Legion did not just kill. They tortured and maimed, then tortured some more. Then perhaps add you to their vehicles armor as decoration.

So did lots of legions, and lots of non legions. Look at the Ecclisiarchy, I can't think of sick feths worse than those guys, those guys will turn you into an achroflagellant, the ultimate form of torture not only because of the pain but because they make you kill those who were once your brothers or kin.

It depends where you go with this one really...Naturally disturbed would be The Night Haunter...Lorgar wasn't really bad...his reprimanding and humiliation at the hands of the Emperor in front of the Ultramarines sowed the seed of Chaos and started him down that path...The same cod also be said for Angron...revenge is a big factor and motive...complete bitterness oh and those implants too...Horus was a complete good guy until he was mortally wounded and then was turned by a few factors...Lorgars meddling in his legion and eventually turning him against the Imperium. Post heresy all of the Chaos Primarch's are evil beyond belief.

 81Northman wrote:
It depends where you go with this one really...Naturally disturbed would be The Night Haunter...Lorgar wasn't really bad...his reprimanding and humiliation at the hands of the Emperor in front of the Ultramarines sowed the seed of Chaos and started him down that path...The same cod also be said for Angron...revenge is a big factor and motive...complete bitterness oh and those implants too...Horus was a complete good guy until he was mortally wounded and then was turned by a few factors...Lorgars meddling in his legion and eventually turning him against the Imperium. Post heresy all of the Chaos Primarch's are evil beyond belief.

Lorgar embraced the "religion of evil" when he turned to Chaos. He is fully aware that his actions are entirely evil, and while a small part of him tries to find solace in the "well, I didn't ask for the true gods to be the forces of darkness, but they are, so my hands are tied" line, it's pretty clear that he is entirely complicit.

Night Haunter, certainly by the time of Vulkan Lives (!!!!) and The Unremembered Empire, is also entirely malevolent, with an attitude of "the entire universe will drown in it's own blood!".

Horus and Fulgrim are both megalomaniacs, obsessed with their own status and power above all else. That's a different brand of evil, and while they both commit insane acts of depravity, I don't think it's on quite the same level as Lorgar and certainly not the Night Haunter.

I think Angron because he was the first primarch to join horus, he killed several of his own armies captains just because they tried to talk to him and he was so god damned resilient, even when out numbered massively he was just like screw it im still going to try and butcher all of you... i think he was the most mentally twisted

I think horus said "let's murder murder" so he gets my vote. Unless it was sangunious, in which case he gets it, because that line is awful

 Veteran of The Long War wrote:
Mortarion, all the others were other possessed, tricked by Xenos/Daemons, Crazy or betrayed by the Emperor. Except for Mortarion, he was just an ass.

Angron is the only traitor primarch with a legit reason to rebel.

I am alos limitied on info about all the primarchs but for me it would be Angron, because although he was a simple minded "killer for killing sake", he utterly destroyed worlds with no discrimination between man women and child.

I also think Mortarion was just an ass

 Mojo1jojo wrote:
I am alos limitied on info about all the primarchs but for me it would be Angron, because although he was a simple minded "killer for killing sake", he utterly destroyed worlds with no discrimination between man women and child.

I also think Mortarion was just an ass

So did other primarchs traitor and loyalist.

Angron was the only one who was honest with himself and verbally tore Russ a new donkey-cave when Russ tried to ''redeem'' ( push around, arrogantly stepping in where he was neither needed or wanted) him.

So much wrong in this post about the traitors it hurts me to see fellow fluff lovers get the heresy wrong!

Perturabo wasn't valued by anyone, he was merely seen as the guy whose legion stayed in the mud, they were so much more than just "castle breakers", they were brilliant siege craftsmen, they could build fantastic defenses too, Peturabo himself was a brilliant engineer, he could build marvels, his favorite second one was used as the place to ban pyskers and forbid it (decree of Nikea) and considering Magnus was one of the only brothers he truly cared for as the spent a long time hunting for freizen (can't remember how to spell it) articles on how to build, it's all in angel exterminatus

Mortarion when he landed on his home world was adopted by a tyrant, he fled to join the peasents, when he was finally able to act revenge upon the tyrant overlords of Barburus, his adoptive father was the last left alive. When he got back after killing the penultimate tyrant, he heard of a "magical saviour" who had appeared and was going to lead them to freedom, Mortarion saw the Emp and Empy said "if you can't kill him, I will help you" and Mortarion refused and when to kill his former adoptive father/tyrant. However the toxic smog around him brought him to his knees and he couldn't face him, and the last thing he saw was Emp killing the tyrant (this left a scar, much like angrons, on his pride). Horus however did have problems attempting to convince Mortarion to join, however when he explained how Emp was now like a tyrant of old on barburus, Mortarion joined.

Angron on him home world was a slave gladiator of much re-known who led a revolt which succeeded and his gladiator army fled to the mountains, when the final battle came, Emp. teleported down and and told Angron how he was impressed and gave him control of the war hounds legion, however Angron declined and said that he would rather die with his brothers on his homeworld and Emp. teleported back to his ship, however just before Angrons gladiator army was assulted by the 5 armies, Emp. teleported him to his battle barge and Angron's martial pride was wounded so badly he would never forgive Emp. The thing about him killing the war hounds captins, was because he didn't respect them+was still in a massive rage about being forced to leave his brothers beind, only when Kharn was beaten badly and said something along the lines of "we are your brothers, we are the eater of worlds" did Angron somewhat calm down and respect his legion. The only person he wanted to kill was the old supreme chapter master of the old war hounds, as only then would he be in complete control. Angrons rage stemed from the butchers nails that were embedded in his brain, they caused constant agony and only when he killed did the pain subside, therefore on the battlefield he feel in murderous rampages which granted him a strange form of serenity. These were unable to be removed as they were a lost technology from before the age of strife.

Fulgrim is a given I guess, as everyone knows his story, was constantly craving perfection and had a sword with a greater demon of Slaanesh trapped within which slowly pushed him over the edge with each passing day.

Konrad Cruze is a sad one, possible the saddest. He landed on a criminal world and while the others were quickly adopted and looked after, he left his capsule with a blade of glass, the people who was surrounded by shaped him into the psychopathic murder he became, he took on the "batman/Night haunter" personality to protect the real Konrad, but his other side became so powerful that it eventually overtook him in daily life and when Night Haunter was Konrad Cruze he jsut wanted to die, which is why he let himself die and why he wanted Vulkan to kill him in Vulkan lives. He hated what he had become that he wanted to die.

Want me to explain the rest in detail haha, god I love the heresy

godking wrote:

 Veteran of The Long War wrote:
Mortarion, all the others were other possessed, tricked by Xenos/Daemons, Crazy or betrayed by the Emperor. Except for Mortarion, he was just an ass.

Angron is the only traitor primarch with a legit reason to rebel.

Magnus, who tried to warned the Emperor of the HH, but was sentenced to death for doing so?

Lorgar, whose entire life was devoted to indoctrinating Imperial citizens and worshipping the Emperor, which was later all destroyed?

Alpharius, the James Bond of the Marines, who is trying to save the Galaxy by destroying humanity?

Those are some right legit reasons there, IMO!

Ignore this, was trying something out and clicked submit instead of preview!

 thenoobbomb wrote:

godking wrote:

 Veteran of The Long War wrote:
Mortarion, all the others were other possessed, tricked by Xenos/Daemons, Crazy or betrayed by the Emperor. Except for Mortarion, he was just an ass.

Angron is the only traitor primarch with a legit reason to rebel.

Magnus, who tried to warned the Emperor of the HH, but was sentenced to death for doing so?

Lorgar, whose entire life was devoted to indoctrinating Imperial citizens and worshipping the Emperor, which was later all destroyed?

Alpharius, the James Bond of the Marines, who is trying to save the Galaxy by destroying humanity?

Those are some right legit reasons there, IMO!

Magnus, who tried to warned the Emperor of the HH, but was sentenced to death for doing so? He brought it on himself due to his gigantic hubris

Lorgar, whose entire life was devoted to indoctrinating Imperial citizens and worshipping the Emperor, which was later all destroyed? Naive fool at first and dishonest hypocrite latter on during the Heresy


Alpharius, the James Bond of the Marines, who is trying to save the Galaxy by destroying humanity? Destroying humanity because a cabal of xenos tells him its the only way ?

Angron was the only one who never drank the emperors koolaid never pretended to like anyone and was the one primarch who was honest with himself most of the time.

 thenoobbomb wrote:

godking wrote:

 Veteran of The Long War wrote:
Mortarion, all the others were other possessed, tricked by Xenos/Daemons, Crazy or betrayed by the Emperor. Except for Mortarion, he was just an ass.

Angron is the only traitor primarch with a legit reason to rebel.

Magnus, who tried to warned the Emperor of the HH, but was sentenced to death for doing so?

Lorgar, whose entire life was devoted to indoctrinating Imperial citizens and worshipping the Emperor, which was later all destroyed?

Alpharius, the James Bond of the Marines, who is trying to save the Galaxy by destroying humanity?

Those are some right legit reasons there, IMO!

Magnus was not sentenced to death. The Emperor ordered Russ to bring Magnus to Terra, problem is he sent those orders through Horus. Horus told Russ that his orders were to destroy the Thousand Sons. But I agree with you in that he was justified in rebelling from that point on, as he believed the Emperor was responsible.

EDIT: quoted the wrong person.

One of the two that got snuffed and never, ever mentioned again.

They must have done some *terrible* gak to get that treatment.

 Psienesis wrote:
One of the two that got snuffed and never, ever mentioned again.

They must have done some *terrible* gak to get that treatment.

Like chasing around the Space Wolves with vacuum cleaners?

Could have been! I mean, you gotta admit, it's pretty evil to chase space-dogs around outer space with a high-tech space-vacuum!

 Psienesis wrote:
Could have been! I mean, you gotta admit, it's pretty evil to chase space-dogs around outer space with a high-tech space-vacuum!

godking wrote:

 thenoobbomb wrote:

godking wrote:

 Veteran of The Long War wrote:
Mortarion, all the others were other possessed, tricked by Xenos/Daemons, Crazy or betrayed by the Emperor. Except for Mortarion, he was just an ass.

Angron is the only traitor primarch with a legit reason to rebel.

Magnus, who tried to warned the Emperor of the HH, but was sentenced to death for doing so?

Lorgar, whose entire life was devoted to indoctrinating Imperial citizens and worshipping the Emperor, which was later all destroyed?

Alpharius, the James Bond of the Marines, who is trying to save the Galaxy by destroying humanity?

Those are some right legit reasons there, IMO!

Magnus, who tried to warned the Emperor of the HH, but was sentenced to death for doing so? He brought it on himself due to his gigantic hubris

"Oh no, he's trying to get knowledge!"

Lorgar, whose entire life was devoted to indoctrinating Imperial citizens and worshipping the Emperor, which was later all destroyed? Naive fool at first and dishonest hypocrite latter on during the Heresy

I'd say you would be a "naive fool" too, if you were born and raised in feudal Europe, with which we can pretty much compare Lorgar's homeworld.

Alpharius, the James Bond of the Marines, who is trying to save the Galaxy by destroying humanity? Destroying humanity because a cabal of xenos tells him its the only way ?

Because they show him what will happens if Horus loses - grimdawk 40 kay hurr hurr.

 thenoobbomb wrote:

"Oh no, he's trying to get knowledge!"

It wasn't just knowledge. It was the use of a dangerous art. The Wolves were only sent after Magnus shattered the wards protecting the Imperial Webway causing a large loss of Imperial life. Even then they were sent to bring him back to Terra. It was Horus who changed the commands.

Because they show him what will happens if Horus loses - grimdawk 40 kay hurr hurr.

There is no logical reason for Alpharius to believe that that those are the only two possible futures. It could have been a complete illusion or just possible futures. The future isn't set in stone in 40K; prophecies don't necessarily come true. Besides, Alpharius sided with Horus and the future he was told that would prevent still came to pass. Except the Imperium isn't set to be annihilated any time soon (making the 10,000 years prediction wrong). Not only that but the destruction of humanity wouldn't destroy Chaos Gods anyway, so it's pretty clear the Cabal were either outright lying, were misinformed or just stupid.

SomeRandomEvilGuy wrote:

 thenoobbomb wrote:

"Oh no, he's trying to get knowledge!"

It wasn't just knowledge. It was the use of a dangerous art. The Wolves were only sent after Magnus shattered the wards protecting the Imperial Webway causing a large loss of Imperial life. Even then they were sent to bring him back to Terra. It was Horus who changed the commands.

Because they show him what will happens if Horus loses - grimdawk 40 kay hurr hurr.

There is no logical reason for Alpharius to believe that that those are the only two possible futures. It could have been a complete illusion or just possible futures. The future isn't set in stone in 40K; prophecies don't necessarily come true. Besides, Alpharius sided with Horus and the future he was told that would prevent still came to pass. Except the Imperium isn't set to be annihilated any time soon (making the 10,000 years prediction wrong). Not only that but the destruction of humanity wouldn't destroy Chaos Gods anyway, so it's pretty clear the Cabal were either outright lying, were misinformed or just stupid.

Prophecies are predictions. He could have ignored them easily. HE could have passed them off as false. But the difference between a prophecy and foresight is that a prophecy is a prediction, foreight is just a vision of possible futures. Alpharius was informed that Horus must WIN to prevent the grimdarkness we see "today" in 40k, which he didn't. Destroying humanity would knock out a great deal, hell, 99% of Chaos' followers in this galaxy which as far as we know, is all the warp covers. I'm not sure about the 10k years bit but at the close of the 41st Millenium things look pretty bleak. Armeggedon and a new Waaagh! ever week, elder destroying worlds to slow the Nids, Nids invading by the bazillions, Necrons awakening at an astounding rate, Chaos incursions left, right, centre, slightly off-centre, up down, at 45 degree inclines, and everywhere, plus the 13th Black Crusade about to punch through, the Imperium is on the brink. Not to mention the TauDar combos killing Spess Mahreens by the handful.

 Deadshot wrote:

Alpharius was informed that Horus must WIN to prevent the grimdarkness we see "today" in 40k, which he didn't.

Wasn't he also told that if he sided with Horus then Horus would win? Regardless him believing the Cabal is bizarre and doesn't make sense unless he actually was doing it all for different reasons.

Destroying humanity would knock out a great deal, hell, 99% of Chaos' followers in this galaxy which as far as we know, is all the warp covers

What about the hundreds (or thousands or tens of thousands) alien empires throughout the galaxy? Chaos doesn't need actual followers it needs emotion; only the Necrons, Tyranids, pariahs and Orks don't feed them as far as I know. Even then they often cause other species' to experience extreme emotion which does feed the Ruinous Powers.

I'm not sure about the 10k years bit but at the close of the 41st Millenium things look pretty bleak. .

But the Imperium is not set to crumble. The Imperium is going to fall for centuries if not millennia. Thus far it has fended off or diverted the Tyranids, the Necrons have no plans to wipe out humanity (even if they unified and toppled the Imperium), the Ork Waaghs! are nothing compared to the one the Beast launched in the 32nd millennium (I think it was then), the Eldar would likely predominantly aid the Imperium and as for Chaos while they're liable to make headway there's no guarantee their onslaught won't be stopped.

godking wrote:

Magnus, who tried to warned the Emperor of the HH, but was sentenced to death for doing so? He brought it on himself due to his gigantic hubris

Lorgar, whose entire life was devoted to indoctrinating Imperial citizens and worshipping the Emperor, which was later all destroyed? Naive fool at first and dishonest hypocrite latter on during the Heresy


Alpharius, the James Bond of the Marines, who is trying to save the Galaxy by destroying humanity? Destroying humanity because a cabal of xenos tells him its the only way ?

Angron was the only one who never drank the emperors koolaid never pretended to like anyone and was the one primarch who was honest with himself most of the time.

Angron was a sniveling coward who blamed his problems on everyone else and dismissed everyone else's issues as just whining. Angron loses all sympathy when he actively antagonizes Argel Tal over Cyrene's death while sane, despite the fact that Angron knows first-hand what it's like to lose someone you actually care about.

The Emperor's biggest mistake was not killing him the moment he found him.

I nearly died when I saw that panel of them bounding away on all fours.

Hard to say, The Imperium is a dubiously lesser evil.

Least evil (out of the running for most evil):

Gulliman, Magnus, Alpharius/Omegon, Dorn, Sanguinius, Manus, Khan, Vulkan, Corax

More evil but not really that evil:

Night Haunter, Horus, Lorgar, Moratorian, Russ

In the running:

Angron, Peturbo, Fulgrim, Johnson

 Void__Dragon wrote:

godking wrote:

Magnus, who tried to warned the Emperor of the HH, but was sentenced to death for doing so? He brought it on himself due to his gigantic hubris

Lorgar, whose entire life was devoted to indoctrinating Imperial citizens and worshipping the Emperor, which was later all destroyed? Naive fool at first and dishonest hypocrite latter on during the Heresy


Alpharius, the James Bond of the Marines, who is trying to save the Galaxy by destroying humanity? Destroying humanity because a cabal of xenos tells him its the only way ?

Angron was the only one who never drank the emperors koolaid never pretended to like anyone and was the one primarch who was honest with himself most of the time.

Angron was a sniveling coward who blamed his problems on everyone else and dismissed everyone else's issues as just whining. Angron loses all sympathy when he actively antagonizes Argel Tal over Cyrene's death while sane, despite the fact that Angron knows first-hand what it's like to lose someone you actually care about.

The Emperor's biggest mistake was not killing him the moment he found him.

If the Emperor had left him with his people he wouldn't have turned out as it is. The Emperor's mistake was not trying to save his people.

As it is, he doesn't give two about the others in the space marines, the Emperor, or anyone else. Why should he care for their suffering when he himself was forced to leave his comrades to die? It takes Kharn the longest time to earn his respect, and mainly he is one of the few he considers to be a true comrade.

Kharn's entire story seems a bit odd to me honestly. you'd think the emperor would have just saved the gladiators, tying Kharn to him with some sort of feeling of graditude.

BrianDavion wrote:
Kharn's entire story seems a bit odd to me honestly. you'd think the emperor would have just saved the gladiators, tying Kharn to him with some sort of feeling of graditude.

You mean Angron right?

Also, the Emperor doesn't have the best track record of being the 'best daddy of the year'. He thinks whatever he does is right and pretty much neglects some of them, dots on others, and generally will use extreme punishments.

Hell, half of the legions rebelled because of things he directly ordered or did.

The Emperor-
1) All this never would have happened if he had a nice father-son chat with horus
2) I have a "different" definition of evil
3) CORRUPT EMPIRE OF DAEMONS MUST BE CLAENSED IN BLOOD!!!!!!!!!


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Mortarion was shunned by his brothers...and then turned int a badass nurgle psycho!!

 ZebioLizard2 wrote:

If the Emperor had left him with his people he wouldn't have turned out as it is. The Emperor's mistake was not trying to save his people.

As it is, he doesn't give two about the others in the space marines, the Emperor, or anyone else. Why should he care for their suffering when he himself was forced to leave his comrades to die? It takes Kharn the longest time to earn his respect, and mainly he is one of the few he considers to be a true comrade.

Because taking your anger and frustration out on other people who had nothing to do with the event in question is the action of an immature, weak-willed manchild.

All of which describe Angron perfectly. He was the weakest Primarch.

 Void__Dragon wrote:

 ZebioLizard2 wrote:

If the Emperor had left him with his people he wouldn't have turned out as it is. The Emperor's mistake was not trying to save his people.

As it is, he doesn't give two about the others in the space marines, the Emperor, or anyone else. Why should he care for their suffering when he himself was forced to leave his comrades to die? It takes Kharn the longest time to earn his respect, and mainly he is one of the few he considers to be a true comrade.

Because taking your anger and frustration out on other people who had nothing to do with the event in question is the action of an immature, weak-willed manchild.

All of which describe Angron perfectly. He was the weakest Primarch.

he definatly was, even the world eaters basicly admit it in Betrayer

BrianDavion wrote:

 Void__Dragon wrote:

 ZebioLizard2 wrote:

If the Emperor had left him with his people he wouldn't have turned out as it is. The Emperor's mistake was not trying to save his people.

As it is, he doesn't give two about the others in the space marines, the Emperor, or anyone else. Why should he care for their suffering when he himself was forced to leave his comrades to die? It takes Kharn the longest time to earn his respect, and mainly he is one of the few he considers to be a true comrade.

Because taking your anger and frustration out on other people who had nothing to do with the event in question is the action of an immature, weak-willed manchild.

All of which describe Angron perfectly. He was the weakest Primarch.

he definatly was, even the world eaters basicly admit it in Betrayer

...Nah, in Angrons mind he was dead, he wanted to die on his homeworld with his brother gladiators but instead the Emperor teleported him up because he didn't want him to die. Would it of been hard to help Angron defeat 5 armies with the custodes? Nope, it wouldn't of been, that action just added to the long book of all the things the emperor did wrong.

When discussing Angron, people always seem to forget that the nails cause him constant headaches that are so severe he can only find a form of peace when killing and inflicting bloodshed, can you really blame the man for being angry when that is happening to him 24/7 and being taken away from his first true brothers? He wasn't the weakest Primarchs by a long shot, he was the second most damaged mentally, the first being our 30K batman, to which made it easy to convince him to turn against the father figure he always had a degree of hatred too.

 King Pariah wrote:

 Psienesis wrote:
Could have been! I mean, you gotta admit, it's pretty evil to chase space-dogs around outer space with a high-tech space-vacuum!

Do space wolves have to take fear checks against chaos space marines with vacuum cleaners?

Yeah. I go for Emperor as the worst of them all. Root of all evil, you might say.

As for the vacuum cleaner: Yeah, it's a howling siren you can attach on any fast moving unit :-p

 tomball0706 wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:

 Void__Dragon wrote:

 ZebioLizard2 wrote:

If the Emperor had left him with his people he wouldn't have turned out as it is. The Emperor's mistake was not trying to save his people.

As it is, he doesn't give two about the others in the space marines, the Emperor, or anyone else. Why should he care for their suffering when he himself was forced to leave his comrades to die? It takes Kharn the longest time to earn his respect, and mainly he is one of the few he considers to be a true comrade.

Because taking your anger and frustration out on other people who had nothing to do with the event in question is the action of an immature, weak-willed manchild.

All of which describe Angron perfectly. He was the weakest Primarch.

he definatly was, even the world eaters basicly admit it in Betrayer

...Nah, in Angrons mind he was dead, he wanted to die on his homeworld with his brother gladiators but instead the Emperor teleported him up because he didn't want him to die. Would it of been hard to help Angron defeat 5 armies with the custodes? Nope, it wouldn't of been, that action just added to the long book of all the things the emperor did wrong.

When discussing Angron, people always seem to forget that the nails cause him constant headaches that are so severe he can only find a form of peace when killing and inflicting bloodshed, can you really blame the man for being angry when that is happening to him 24/7 and being taken away from his first true brothers? He wasn't the weakest Primarchs by a long shot, he was the second most damaged mentally, the first being our 30K batman, to which made it easy to convince him to turn against the father figure he always had a degree of hatred too.

On the other hand, I can see reason for the Emperor letting the slaves die. After all, these are rebellious...people, for lack of a better word. They revelled against their masters when they didn't like the way things were going. Not the kind of people an aspiring Emperor wants in his autocracy.
Putting aside the fact that they were rebelling from slavery and many were likely criminals anyway, I can see why the Emperor let them die.

Not the kind of people an aspiring Emperor wants in his autocracy.

Free people with courage, honor and a desire to be free. No wonder the thing fell apart. Also I don't think the Imperium is autocratic, its more a cast based society, God King, gene enhanced super warriors, noble families, useful yet still powerless people to do the actual work and fighting, most of unwashed humanity to do the actual work, then slaves, mutants and lobotomy victims to do the even worse work, then your occasional person who thought of a different way that you burn at the stake and take everyone's mind away from the actual problems, all strangely like real life.

Everyone thinks the Horus Heresy changed things but all it did was put the noble families in charge rather than the space marines.

As far as evil it is definitely Papa Smurf. Not only for Virus bombing the Imperium and crippling it but the horrible hypocrisy he had. Doing this right after whining about how bad the World Eaters and Night Lords were, whining about courage and honor and then running away when the odds were against him. A war criminal weakling hypocrite.

Needless to say I was dissopointed when Honsou didn't defrost him show him then show him what a failure the Imperium had become and then use his skull as a drinking glass. Yea Games Work Shop HAD to have Honsou fail and could'nt allow something interesting to happen, sigh.

 tomball0706 wrote:


...Nah, in Angrons mind he was dead, he wanted to die on his homeworld with his brother gladiators but instead the Emperor teleported him up because he didn't want him to die. Would it of been hard to help Angron defeat 5 armies with the custodes? Nope, it wouldn't of been, that action just added to the long book of all the things the emperor did wrong.

When discussing Angron, people always seem to forget that the nails cause him constant headaches that are so severe he can only find a form of peace when killing and inflicting bloodshed, can you really blame the man for being angry when that is happening to him 24/7 and being taken away from his first true brothers? He wasn't the weakest Primarchs by a long shot, he was the second most damaged mentally, the first being our 30K batman, to which made it easy to convince him to turn against the father figure he always had a degree of hatred too.

The only mistake the Emperor made with Angron was his choice to not lop his head off his shoulders right then and there. Angron was always doomed, and allowing him to live was far crueler than killing him would have been.

Yes actually, because Kharn handled it so much better than he did despite not having a Primarch's willpower and strength. Angron was weak.

I feel far more sympathy for Curze, who recognized he had a problem, and actually expressed some desire toward getting help, only for him to be denied it.


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Ironclad Warlord wrote:

Not the kind of people an aspiring Emperor wants in his autocracy.

Free people with courage, honor and a desire to be free. No wonder the thing fell apart. Also I don't think the Imperium is autocratic, its more a cast based society, God King, gene enhanced super warriors, noble families, useful yet still powerless people to do the actual work and fighting, most of unwashed humanity to do the actual work, then slaves, mutants and lobotomy victims to do the even worse work, then your occasional person who thought of a different way that you burn at the stake and take everyone's mind away from the actual problems, all strangely like real life.

Everyone thinks the Horus Heresy changed things but all it did was put the noble families in charge rather than the space marines.

As far as evil it is definitely Papa Smurf. Not only for Virus bombing the Imperium and crippling it but the horrible hypocrisy he had. Doing this right after whining about how bad the World Eaters and Night Lords were, whining about courage and honor and then running away when the odds were against him. A war criminal weakling hypocrite.
Needless to say I was dissopointed when Honsou didn't defrost him show him then show him what a failure the Imperium had become and then use his skull as a drinking glass. Yea Games Work Shop HAD to have Honsou fail and could'nt allow something interesting to happen, sigh.

What are you even talking about here?

Its definitely Guilliman and Dorn, all the Primarchs have done some bad things, these guys just pretend to be just merciful and righteous cause they can't stand what they are.