I surfed through rumors and information on the Tyranid release and found that long standing players of 'Nids as well as general commentators were not particularly thrilled, ranging from a wait and see attitude to the codex to something along the lines of this:
angeleania wrote:Speaking about the codex today, a few things fall into place. One of the older members of the Stoke branch is regular play tester for the pre release codex's as he has a number of armies they use when the designers want to try out their rules. Well it turns out he basically advised the design team that the NID codex was far too week and he basically walked over their armies, so they kept adding and changing the rules until it became such a mess that they stopped play testing the book. The white dwarf article was done in the released format because it became obvious that things did not work. They even toned down the riptides load out and tailored the report so it looked as if the new NID's could stand up to the best units in the game. it was a lie.
They basically ran out of time to publish the codex. To make it right, they would likely have to start over again, and the old one was already way behind.
So somewhere along the line someone high up forced the release, the Models were obviously ready and the penny counters wanted a return, as it costs to sculpt, and they don't want molds sat there for another 6-12 months. The inventory was in supply or on order, so it had to be pushed out.
Add to this that the reason we don't have the doom or parasite or pod was a hang over of the chapter-house law suit. When that went to court GW decided that they would not be making these models as the cost of the molds and time was too expensive. So the safest way to remove influence from chapter-house, was to make any of the disputed models obsolete. Remove them from the codex.
We already had the design team at Nottingham give interviews saying they would put right the 5th edition codex, i wonder what they are going to say this time.
Its a sad time. Send in your complaints
The blog Whiskey & 40k had a more detailed explanation of problems and a few bright spots-
Tyranids - Early Reaction from a Long-Time Nid Player
So I played 40K briefly when I was in Junior High and early HS. This was second edition. I played Tyranids. When I picked 40K back up again in my mid-20s, I initially ebayed a Necron army b/c it was cheap and I was told they were easy to learn, this was in 4th Edition. Within a month I had a Tyranid army again, and I've played them consistently ever since.
I'm disappointed in what we know so far about the new codex (which is almost everything). I don't think the sky is falling - I'm sure a few good lists will come out of it - but it's roundly bad at dealing with the 2 "best" codices of the moment (Eldar/Tau), and perhaps also even worse in terms of internal balance than it was before.
Here's my initial thoughts on it, keeping in mind all of this will be revised / may change based upon holding and playing with the total codex (don't lose your minds yet folks) ...
Overall:
The first thing you'll note is Tyranids no longer have access to book powers. This combines with no access to allies to make them unique among 40k armies - they have 0 book power access and 0 ally access. People keep saying supplements may change this, and they may. Let's look at the present and be happy if the future changes things, however. Right now, Nids are the only codex that does not permit you to access the rest of the game via allies, and does not permit you psychic flexibility in terms of tree selection and varied powers.
Instead, they have access to the Powers of the Hive Mind. OK, cool, well these are probably awesome since there are no other powers available to them besides these.
Psy Powers
Primaris - +6" Synapse range. This is a really boring primaris, but will probably be important, as Tyranid synapse generally got more difficult to field, and one of only 2 "hide-able" synapse Independent Characters were deleted from the codex altogether. Meanwhile, the other one (Tyranid Primes) received a greater than 50% base points increase with no changes to its functionality or power level. Basically, your functional synapse is going to feel overpriced and/or suboptimal with a few exceptions, so having as much extension of synapse as possible may actually be valuable.
1 - Catalyst - Blessing. Psyker's unit and one other friendly unit w/in 12" gains FNP. This is actually pretty decent.
2 - The Horror - Forces a pinning test with a LD modifier, 24" Malediction. This is the Broodlord's base power; we'll talk later about why it's pretty bad on a Broodlord against what people are kneejerking to. IT's useful enough situationally.
3 - Onslaught - Same basically; 24" blessing that lets a unit run+shoot. Situationally useful.
4 - Paroxysm - 24" malediction that is -D3 WS/BS. Randomly acquired and a straight nerf of its older version.
5 - Psychic Scream - Doom of Malantai Power basically. 2d6+2 - LD wounds with no armor/cover, nova 6" ... this is a fine power if you can deliver it, but there are no more spore pods, which means accurate delivery requires combos such as lictors, and ... well, you might use it you might not in a given game, which is what this boils down to.
6 - Warp Blast - While ML2, that's not too inhibiting given the way it is applied in the codex, but it's largely unchanged (I think the AP of the Lance went from 1 to 2, though, so that's disappointing).
Psychic powers are basically "OK," none of them are all that bad, the Primaris is a little underwhelming.
Army Rules
Shadow in the Warp is -3LD to enemy psykers w/in 12" more or less ... this is a little better [for Tyranids] for sub-LD10 psykers and a little worse [for Tyranids] against the primary type of psykers, LD10. Not a huge change as I'm given to understand from those who are more mathematically committed than I am.
Synapse - Fearless/auto-regroup, nothing changed. Eternal was not added, which is a little disappointing from the perspective of making the mid-range T4 bio-constructs useful in take all comers gaming.
Bioweapons
Largely unchanged, honestly. Scything Talons were nerfed (no longer offer any form of re-roll to hit, and are just "weapons" with AP6). The AP6 is nice I guess, if you want to kill 16% more orks and kroot and tyranid. But you didn't struggle killing those as it was. Rending Claws were buffed, basically staying the same but gaining AP5 to boot.
Bio-Upgrades
The various common upgrades got a little better in some cases (Adrenal Glands = furious/fleet instead of just furious) but generally also got more expensive. The shunting of points from the creatures to their often-mandatory upgrades accounts for a lot of why the dex doesn't actually play cheaper / with more models at a first glance. Some upgrades were stripped from the dex entirely, like the armored shell ... you can't get a real 2+ save unless you're a Tyrannofex.
Bio-Artefacts
The "fake" 2+ save is here ... an expensive ugprade that lets you have a 2+ for just an assault phase, every other assault phase. Hooray.
The bio-artefacts as a whole are generally awful.
Maw-Claws of Thyrax - for 10 points you get rending claws that give you Preferred Enemy during the game against things you've killed one of with that model, for that model. So you get to re-roll a few 1's. Don't bother.
The Miasma Cannon - for 25 points you get a weapon that's not really any better or worse than most of the other already-available bio-weapons. Either a 2+ to wound AP4 template or a 2+ to wound AP4 blast. Skip, far too expensive (or you could argue, far too weak and non-differentiated from standard bioweaponry).
The Norn Crown - +6" synapse range (non-psy-casted Dominion, or a boost to Dominion) is alright ... UNTIL YOU REALIZE IT COSTS 40 POINTS. Horrible.
The Ymgarl Factor - +1S, +1A, or +1 save every assault phase, for just the assault phase, and you can't repeat the same one twice ... and it costs 40 points. AWFUL.
The Reaper of Obliterax - This doesn't make a lot of sense to me either. It's a Bonesword with +1S and +3I. The problem is it costs 30 more points than a Bonesword, clocking in at 45 total. Again, skip.
I don't see any of the bio-artefacts as being worth taking.
Onto the units
HQ Hive Tyrant - Points decrease to 165, upped to ML2 psyker, but lost access to anything but Powers of the Hive Mind. The double devourer flyrant you'll see poeple harping on is still fairly bad, a unit that was used a lot in 5th Edition but never won major events and never concerned serious players. It still clocks in at 230 points at least to field this build-out, so it's more affordable but still not at all cheap.
Swarmlord - Mega nerf. His weapons lost their ability to force re-rolled successful invulnerable saves. He lost access to powers like Biomancy which were critical for his points value. He lost one roll on the psy tree (in exchange for getting ML3 instead of ML2, but this is a substantial nerf regardless overall). Fortunately they reduced his cost to 285. WAIT WHAT? They added 5 points to his cost. Oh.
Tyrant Guard - These are about what they were, and are actually fine. Crushing claws are OK on them too, though at a substantial cost.
Old One Eye - Cheaper but largely the same. Doesn't have any special kind of regen. He's still pretty bad. I don't know how to tell people that a T6 W4 3+ save MC is never going to last long enough to apply cool regen or FNP powers. He's really not 100 points better than a stock Carnifex.
Tervigon - OH THE PAIN.
No one should be surprised that "the" Monster choice from the last codex got targeted, but let's see how much.
He gained +1I
He lost access to more than 1 psy power, and is ML1, and lost access to all book powers.
He lost the ability to up his attacks profile with crushing claws.
He lost the buffs given to nearby gaunts, inclusive of Leadership, Poison, Furious when he has those.
He retained giving Counter-attack to nearby gaunts, but of course they aren't using his Ld anymore.
When he spawns gaunts, he can still burn out and he spawns the same quantity, but the gaunts themselves cannot move or assault upon arrival.
He can only be made a Troop for each 30-model Termagant squad you take. Though termagants became cheaper, that's a 70 point uptick to enable Tervitroops right off the bat. That's ok, though, b/c he probably went down in cost due to all the dramatic nerfs right?
Wrong. The "Cost" for that dramatic ... improvement??? 35 points. Tervigons are now 195 base.
Tyranid Prime - More pain.
Basically exactly what it was before, but possibly a lost wound (I can't recall off top of head if they were T5/W4 or T5/W3). Regardless, let's assume he's the same. The cost for no changes? Increase his points base by over 50% from 80 to 125. Really?
What's important is the Prime is the codex's only IC synapse, which becomes even more important due to Instinctive Behavior being generally a much worse thing to have happen.
Parasite of Mortrex - The other IC synapse in the codex has been removed from the game.
Deathleaper! He's HQ now! Cool! Wait he's more or less the same. Snap shots only to shoot at him, which is an upgrade (And also means he can't be flamed or blasted, which is kinda cool). He costs a little less I think also, and is pretty decent still stats wise. Not an IC, so no hope of him being anything other than a stationary target. Still applies a LD debuff to enemy IC of choice. Overall actually pretty decent. Hooray!
HQ Summary:
Tyrants are still IMO a subpar unit that costs too much and is too targetable, requiring massive points investment of guard to make them even last a while unless you're playing against pretty subpar or niche opponents. They are cheaper, so at least there's that.
Tervigons are utterly terrible, overcosted and with almost no serious contribution to make to the game. The Swarmlord is not worth his points, at all. Old One Eye is terrible. You may find yourself often taking points for a Norn Crown Tyranid Prime despite the absurd overcosting ... and Death Leaper maybe ... b/c what else are you going to do? Besides, you'll need to hide your Synapse in 30-model gaunt units; none of the other HQ or synapse units can survive sustained fire from ElTau, especially not at their costs.
I don't think a lot of peopled owned a Tyranid Prime or Death Leaper if they were 5th Edition players, so you know, buy one of each. Otherwise you probably already own anything you'll use or try to force using from this (Tervigons, Flyrants). Cool, almost no cost!
Troops
Tyranid Warriors - As far as I can tell, these more or less didn't change. You can buy 4 point frag grenades for them. They're horrible. There's no way to give them eternal, or to increase their T, so they're super fragile to anything that can double them out (like, I Don't know, cover save ignoring re-rolling to hit S8 pie plating riptides w/ trick commanders? OH THOSE AREN'T COMMON). Nobody took Tyranid Warriors in 5th, and nobody will take them in 6th, outside casual gaming in environments where the social contract tailors things to allow their functionality (which is fine I suppose, but why design units / games where things don't work unless you have long conversations and hit-or-miss gaming sessions to figure out what's ok or not to bring from the base legal codex??).
Genestealers - These basically didn't change. They're still awful. Broodlords get The Horror by default, instead of the Stealers getting some kind of Flesh Hook access. On face value, you'd think "Well cool they can pin a unit before assaulting it, so it won't benefit from being assaulted through cover, it's kinda like grenades!" The problem is, The Horror is a Malediction, which means the Broodlord needs to have LOS to the unit you want to maledict a turn in advance. In that interim opponent's turn, the Broodlord must subsequently survive incoming fire (and he only Looks Out Sir on a 4+), and the unit you want to assault must still be in LOS after having access to a full player turn to move out of LOS of the Broodlord or simply block his LOS. So, nice thought, but totally impractical. Let me know when they release an errata that gives Genestealers some way to survive being exposed to enemy fire for a turn.
Termagants - These are basically what they were, only a little more expensive if you want to give them furious/poison. Last edition they were 5 points, 6 for furious OR poison, 7 for both. Now they're 4 base, 6 for furious OR poison, 8 for both. Yes, furious gained fleet and is thus better. Termagants are still your mainstay, but it's trickier now b/c you don't get to apply poison with Tervigons, so you're going to have to either sac fleet/furious or spend 8 points/model to have them be flexibly able to deal with a variety of threats. You'll possibly need to anyway, b/c ... well, that's this codex's problem. Not much in it is any good.
Unit composition did improve somewhat, as you can selectively equip the brood w/ Devourers, thus building ablative non-devourer wound suckers into it. Some things you can play with here that might be OK. This is cool b/c you don't have to buy any models if you're a long-standing Tyranid player.
Hormagaunts - Same old same old. Termagants do exactly what Hormagaunts do, but they do it better, and they have S4 AP5 guns.
Rippers - These got more expensive. I have no idea why. They don't score, they're ID'able, they don't hit for anything. Ummm ... continue to sit on shelf and look pretty!
Troop Summary - Nothing changed, literally. Gaunts are your only good Troops. Have fun, you don't have to spend any money to get set for the new codex!
Elite
Hive Guard - They gained access to a new gun for +5 points that's Haywire. Their old gun basically remained the same. They lost 1 Ballistic Skill. They did not gain skyfire-ability or anything. Cool, cool, sounds like they should drop to 45 points and have a +5 (I guess, not sure why) for the Haywire gun. Wait, no, +5 points base. ???????????????? Yet still for many list types will be mandatory. That's cool, LESS NEED TO BUY NEW MODELS YET AGAIN!
Lictors - 15 points cheaper, 100% still crappy. Some people will find uses for them in gimmick style lists with their deep strike teleport homer nature or whatever, but they're still really really dumb/unfluffy. WE SPENT WEEKS CAREFULLY SECRETING OURSELVES AWAY AND PLANNING FOR HTIS ONE MOMENT!
/leaps from cover ... SURPRISE! Pauses, lets opponents carefully arm and aim their weapons, BS'es with buddy Lictors b/c they're forced to operate in ... SQUADS? What? Anyway then they get shot, but they sure did surprise those guys!
Zoanthropes - These guys were hit hard. Previously they could use warp lance/blast each, with lance being slightly better. They rolled psy tests separately, which meant targets rolled Deny the Witch separately, which meant in general better odds of at least a couple shots getting off and getting to actually roll to hit against their target. Now here's how they work. They still get lance/blast, and they fire it as a unit. A unit of 3 fires 3 shots, 2 fires 2 shots, etc., but it's just one Psy Test (Brotherhood of Psykers). So you have a 24% chance right off the bat of either failing the Ld10 test or the opponent DTW'ing on a 6+ (assuming they aren't psykers of some sort, and Zoeys are only ML1 so any 2+ is dtw'ing on a 4+). Then, you have to roll to hit, so each shot then has a 33% chance of missing. Then you have to actually pen/wound, get through cover, etc. These are terrible. They can roll an additional power on the hive mind chart I believe, but ... ugh. Don't bother. They have 2 warp charges a turn but their main weapon is WC 2 so you'll only use that other power if there's nothing to shoot at with your 6 wounds of marine-level saves and toughness hovering about looking silly.
Venomthropes - Basically the same, but I think a little cheaper, and they got buffed from a 5+ cover save to an aura applying Shrouded. This is actually substantial in the upgrade department, but still doesn't address the fact that Venomthropes are independently targetable and not very durable. Competitive-minded/smart opponents will simply shoot these over-large T4 models with their large LOS footprint, applying things like trick commanders and serpent shields to the task, and that'll be that. AT least they'll have to shoot them first, vice having to apply fire to an army full of 2+ and 3+ cover saves. They're not terrible.
Haruspex - The new close combat variant of the new ground-monster/oval-base kit. He has one more initiative than the Tervigon, 1 more strength and otherwise the same fundamental combat stats. That's right, the combat monster is a slow-moving WS3 S6 guy with 3 attacks and a tail weapon. He's actually quite bad. I don't know what the point of the unit is, I know it has some hinky things that work ok fighting a large blob or squad, but they aren't actually THAT great at said task, and all of it is hampered by the fact that this big ole killer monster hits guardsmen on a 4+, and there's almost no opportunity in the entire codex to get re-rolls on things like to-hit rolls. This guy isn't worth it compared to any of the other elites. He's like the monstrous version of the Pyrovore. Well, maybe he's better than a Pyrovore.
SPEAKING OF WHICH
They made Pyrovores cheaper and have another wound and such. They didn't change them otherwise. They're awful forever. Next.
Elite Summary: Hive Guard, maybe Venomthropes. While you're at it, said Hive Guard were nerfed for no real explicable reason and cost more. Hooray. I don't understand why they wouldn't buff the new model, and some of the never-ordered backlog, to make them decent.
Fast Attack
Shrikes - Basically the same, still bad.
Raveners - Basically the same, still pretty bad, maybe somehow better though I don't really have a way to explain why I think that. I've always loved Raveners, but I can't see taking them over Gargoyles still.
The Red Terror - Hit with all of your attacks, with no re-rolls to hit, and you can remove a model you're in base with, if you're in base with it, and if ... aw fug it just realize it's like 85 points and move on, but be glad they added Red Terror back. Only, then be sad they deleted several models too, so apparently they don't believe in win-win for their players ... you get nothing unless you have something taken.
Flying Rippers - lol Spore Mines - why are awkwardly floaty things that have to be delivered by a heavy support creature having an orgasm considered fast attack? You know what don't answer that, but move along past this entry.
Gargoyles - these are still the shining star of the FA section, though they were arguably nerfed, though they also guarantee blinding what they attack.
Harpy and Crone - The reason these were unpopular in the past was not that there wasn't a model. They were unpopular because they are a T5 4+ save FMC with a giant LOS footprint and no invul save of any kind. Also, the Crone can only fire 2 tentaclids at most a turn, and that's if he doesn't drool on somebody or vector strike something. Or she, or whatever, I don't know, but both of these are poor units. People may take them anyway just hoping they can I guess do something before they're blown out of the sky by a single quad gun round (4 hits and wounds are likely, and a failed grounding test thereafter would do them in).
Fast Attack Summary: Yet again, stick to the models you already owned if you're playing serious Nid lists, Gargoyles.
Heavy Support
Carnifex - To someone who played Nids in 4th edition, when there was less firepower going around and Carnifexes were only 85 points base, this unit still feels really bad. It kind of is. But there are a couple builds that are not awful now due to the lowered cost. Gunfexes hiding in backfield flinging a S6 large blast pinning and a S9 small blast seem functional enough. You could also run them as dakka.
Biovores - Basically what they were before, good enough.
Trygon - Taking away re-rolls to hit at the cost of 10 points cheaper but more expensive upgrades is kind of a messy exchange. It's hard to be a big fan of these guys still; they show up, fire their little electric stuff of, and die. With reserves manipulation difficult for Tyranid, it's hard to conceptualize the right way to go here, but there might be some kind of combo list with a lot of reserves arriving and using Lictors. The problem of course is there are a lot of things in this game that punk MC's shooting and cc, and you can't get around the requisite turn after arrival of just sitting there holding your junk and hoping not to die.
Trygon Prime - Still meh also.
Mawloc - Upgraded and made a little random at the same time. You can't safely go after large target clusters with the Mawloc anymore, b/c you no longer push models out of the way after you blast up from under them. Instead, you repeat your damage roll from the underground arrival. If things are still left after the second roll, the Mawloc Mishaps. People think these are much better b/c they are cheaper, and I agree they are better for the most part, but whereas you used to be able to safely fling them at large clusters of enemy targets and thus discourage that kind of clustering, now you can't safely do that at all, and so you run a risk of mishap'ing in the worst of ways. Now, that said, you only have a 1/6 chance of an actual super "Bad" mishap result, but even being placed right where they want can mean sticking your Mawloc in the open, under the gun, without cover, and ready for a quick and sloppy death. Not sure how I feel at all about this one yet. Might be hopeful?
Exocrine - Range and BS and some other factors make this an unreliable model at the cost. 6 Plasma shots sounds really good until you realize most turns you're going to be missing with half of them. Still, it's not terrible, you just wish it had a way to get a higher S than 7 on the alternate mode.
Tyrannofex - Basically better, but still an underwhelming unit. Hey look a 2+ save!
Heavy Support Summary - Kinda meh, but maybe the best FOC area? Maybe? There's some potential for various lists in using exocrines, maybe tfexes, carnifexes and biovores. None of them are great units, however. You might actually spend like 50 or 100 bucks getting this up to speed, I guess?
So as a whole what we have is a codex that basically does what the last one does, but does it less well. The psychic powers were all nerfed, most of the good units were nerfed, the units they tried to make into the "new hotness" are not actually the new hotness at all.
IF you're an extant Tyranid player, the nice thing is your investment to make the best reasonably decent list is probably going to be pretty light. In terms of using the rules to sell more models to existing customers (their primary sales model), this looks like a substantial failure on Games Workshop's part. Even players who find ways to be decently good with Nids aren't going to really need to buy many new models to do so. So I guess that's kind of a plus.
PS -
In summary, while every other codex has access to:
3-4 different codices per army via the allies matrix in conjunction w/ formations
Very solid book powers
Power units that can be spammed in a pinch to up the power level of the dex
Tyranid have:
No allies of any kind (at least presently)
No book powers, unique among all codices, and access to very average codex powers
Literally no clear-cut power units within the codex (no riptide, missiletide, wave serpent, gravbiker, etc., equivalent of any sort)
For a 6th edition codex, a subpar release is not something heard of as of yet (CSM, Dark Angels, and SM all fall behind Tau, Daemons, and Eldar in terms of ramping up their power but nothing shockingly nerfed to the extent of Tyranids). Tyranids seems to evoke the strongest response about nerfs yet.
Do you think the Tyranid release warrants a "No thanks, I'll take my money elsewhere" kind of approach?
CSM is definitely a subpar book by way of comparision to everything that came after it, though by no means underpowered. The only metric by which it isn't subpar is by way of comparison to the previous CSM book, but if you go one book prior to that... you'll understand why the current one is subpar.... Oh how I miss the 3rd edition (technically 3.5) book...
And I'm boycotting this thread for being pointless. I'll be picking up my copy of the book tonight for sure, been waiting for this update forever now.
I buy my IG from other sculptors (yay Vic Minis!), and the only GW purchase I'll get in a while will be the IG codex. I really want to start an HH army, but I'm having serious reservations now dumping that much money into a company that produces such subpar rules. Granted, the FW models are beautiful, so I might suck it up and do a small force, but yeah.
I still can't get over the limited edition rule books. I will never understand those who buy them either. They're double the cost for precisely nothing of worth. A different cover (dustjacket, whatever) is not worth $60. For that cost, I'd at least expect some 'favours' from one of the authors.
But this appears to be a much more negative reaction than I've seen. And yes, I'm counting the rage-quit and down right nasty reads I've had with books like the CSM release.
I think there are some people like me. I don't think the book will down right suck. I think they will be middle of the roadish.. have some unique quirky stuff but they are not going to be knocking anyone off the top of the hill.
I cancelled my preorder only because I only ever had enough bugs to field the "current" standard build with a few changes here an there. The play style will shift quite a lot and with certain units being removed and ones like the terv not really being viable, I would have to spend a lot of money to rebuild the army. I'm not buying a whole new armies worth of models to stay middle of the road. If I could have bought a few models.. the codex and made a run of it.. I likely would have kept it.. I would be fine banishing the nids to the basement to only be played in home rule games.
Martel732 wrote: So it seems the Nids have broken the trend of Xeno > power armor in 6th ed?
PA - NonPA - PA l was a 5th Ed thing.
Necrons ISBN 978-1-907964-18-3 November 2011 Grey Knights ISBN 978-1-84154-991-0 April 2011 Dark Eldar ISBN 978-1-84154-978-1 November 2010 Blood Angels ISBN 978-1-84154-960-6 April 2010 Tyranids ISBN 978-1-84154-951-4 January 2010 Space Wolves ISBN 978-1-84154-010-8 October 2009 Imperial Guard ISBN 978-1-84154-923-1 May 2009 Space Marines ISBN 978-1-84154-894-4 October 2008
6th ed hasn't had that at all.
Tyranids ISBN TBA January 2014 Inquisition ISBN 978-1782534044 November 2013 (Digital Only Release) Adepta Sororitas ISBN 978-1782533603 October 2013 (Digital Only Release) Space Marines ISBN 978-1782530763 September 2013 Eldar ISBN 978-1782532125 June 2013 Tau Empire ISBN 978-1782530039 April 2013 Chaos Daemons ISBN 978-1908872883 March 2013 Dark Angels ISBN 978-1908872265 January 2013 Chaos Space Marines ISBN 978-1908872029 October 2012
kronk wrote: I have never been tempted to play Nids, but I'm picking up the Codex because I like to read them.
Same. No way am I painting another horde army, but there are a lot of cool Tyranid stories. I also think they make a way better Big Bad than Chaos does.
I don't ever remember the threat of a boycott in terms of Codex power. I remember price boycotts but that's about it.
I always think it's best to get the codex and make your own mind up. I'm sure various tournament players will have their thoughts on the codex up over the weekend.
Medium of Death wrote: I don't ever remember the threat of a boycott in terms of Codex power. I remember price boycotts but that's about it.
I always think it's best to get the codex and make your own mind up. I'm sure various tournament players will have their thoughts on the codex up over the weekend.
I've got the option to play in a Tier-2 style tournament on Saturday, if i'm willing to make the hour drive to get there. Using the new tyranids, of course.
Tier-2 because there's a 0-1 restriction on all units from all codices except troops choices. So i could only take 1 trygon, 1 tyrannofex, and 1 brood of biovores in a legal list for example.
Not a great way to test the books overall power but maybe a nice stepping stone on the way to big-boy tournaments. As it stands i'm currently 50/50 about whether or not i'll attend. But if i do i'll post some thoughts here on the forums.
I wouldn't worry. Allegedly next year we might be getting 7th edition and its almost guaranteed that the meta will turn to favor assault again. Then we'll probably see a decent codex.
TBH my impression from rumors is that not a lot has changed. As opposed to Tau and Eldar where A LOT changed. Rending for basic ranged weapons.
For me, none of the new units are really that good or look nice. Not compared to some of the cooler releases like the trygons, gargoyles and tyrannofexs. The new crab thing feels very chucked in. Plus with the harpy I expected a mini harridan (which is what it is), not a carnifex with wings...
Yeah I think low WS and armor is a big issue for the tyranids.
I am not boycotting the new codex, but I am not buying it. I've played Nids since 3rd and despite people who keep saying the ridiculous, "wait until it is out before passing judgement!" I know this codex's power level. You know why? Nothing has really changed from the 5th codex except nerfs. Nothing really got buffed, some things got cheaper which is good but...a bad unit that was overpriced is still a bad unit when priced appropriately. The entire codex has been leaked, I have held to codex in my hands and read over it, there is no saving grace here.
The best way I can describe it is with the argument that this is a narrative driven game. Tyranids in the narrative are a force of nature, so we have an army of hundreds of units which is great...but they all are sub-par. They all fold like tissue paper. The issue is that playing Tyranids in 5th and now 6th you never felt like you army had any unique traits other than throwing more models at the enemy. It works to an extent but then you have something like...the Hive Tyrant which fails to impress as an HQ. It's not bad in melee but it is nothing special with its low armor and low number of attacks. A perfect example is the Swarmlord. Now that he doesn't have access to biomancy he is S6 A4 MC with a 3+/4++ in CC only. Compare him to other CCHQs and he falls somewhere in the middle as far as power level goes but he cost a disgusting 285 points. The codex if filled with examples of units like this, including the Exocrine which is going to be a staple of 6th. It is a BS3 24" S7 AP2 weapon on a T6 W5 3+ MC. It looks great but the actual math break down it isn't going to be doing ALL that much damage and cost a decent amount of points. It feels like they wrote this codex to give other armies an almost NPC faction to fight against, which doesn't make any sense because there are those of us who have been playing this army so long and love the models so much that we continue to play them.
Da krimson barun wrote: Cruddace wrote it.Last time I checked codex Eldar was the worst codex- oh wait it isn't.Despite what they said before it was released..
It's amazing how many powergamers selectively can't remember this.
Da krimson barun wrote: Cruddace wrote it.Last time I checked codex Eldar was the worst codex- oh wait it isn't.Despite what they said before it was released..
It's amazing how many powergamers selectively can't remember this.
Anyone who didn't realize the power of the wave serpent in the first 30 minutes wasn't paying attention. I literally ignore who writes the books anymore. All that matters is the end product.
Totalwar1402 wrote: I wouldn't worry. Allegedly next year we might be getting 7th edition and its almost guaranteed that the meta will turn to favor assault again. Then we'll probably see a decent codex.
TBH my impression from rumors is that not a lot has changed. As opposed to Tau and Eldar where A LOT changed. Rending for basic ranged weapons.
For me, none of the new units are really that good or look nice. Not compared to some of the cooler releases like the trygons, gargoyles and tyrannofexs. The new crab thing feels very chucked in. Plus with the harpy I expected a mini harridan (which is what it is), not a carnifex with wings...
Yeah I think low WS and armor is a big issue for the tyranids.
Favor assault again? So what, be like 3rd edition?
GW design team.
I'd believe it, you've got cruddnce's point costs, Kelly's random tables, Kelly's love of odd artifacts that require killing to activate, and Kelly's every other turn nonsense in melee. With a few confusing Ward text like the Pyrovore's explosive hits all units bomb.
They basically ran out of time to publish the codex. To make it right, they would likely have to start over again, and the old one was already way behind.
So somewhere along the line someone high up forced the release, the Models were obviously ready and the penny counters wanted a return, as it costs to sculpt, and they don't want molds sat there for another 6-12 months. The inventory was in supply or on order, so it had to be pushed out.
This really would explain a lot if true. It definitely doesn't feel like they really finished, and I expect (well, hope, really) that a FAQ or update or something will eventually update the book. There just seems to be no rhyme or reason to a lot of the changes. Tyranid Primes went from 80 points to 125, but received 0 buffs or changes. What could the possible reasoning for that be? I mean, this is in a new box that GW is supposed to want to move, but the units in it got literally 0 positive changes.
The only thing i will buy from GW is the Guard Codex when it is released. I got all my models from other companies. My friends and i have decided to no longer buy from GW at all. Simply because it is a disappointing company.
Psienesis wrote: Replace "Tyranid" with "Tau" and we could replicate the same threads that were being posted before (and at the time of) the Tau Codex was released.
Mmm, too bad GW won't notice the loss of business... I'll wait until I can read the book and make a call on it. I have told people I didn't expect much from the book to begin with considering the poor 5th showing... but oh well.
Never had an interest in playing Tyranids anyway, sucks for those that do play them though if the book is this bad.
I still like GW and their products. Can't understand decisions some times.. but oh well. Soldier on fellow war gamers, soldier on.
Psienesis wrote: Replace "Tyranid" with "Tau" and we could replicate the same threads that were being posted before (and at the time of) the Tau Codex was released.
I am getting REALLY tired of this argument. Yes, people whinned about Tau and were wrong. People are whinning about Tyranids but you know what? We have seen the entire codex now. It is exactly the same as the 5th codex except the new units. The new units aren't bringing anything huge to the table that we didn't already have. The new Nids are the old Nids, minus Tervigon spam, so we DO know how this codex is going to be. It is going to be a terribly bland codex with middle of the road power. Maybe there is a hidden power list in here somewhere and I am open to that possibility, but that doesn't change how terribly underwhelming this product is. A lot of iconic units are still trash, trash units are still trash, and the power units of 5th are now just mediocre, but all of this is balanced by the fact that we can run an insane amount of units now.
Tyranids will be just fine, just like CSM are just fine, both codices are trash though. They are bland, uninspired, and poorly written. I love my CSM and still play them DESPITE this. I just wont put up with another $50 codex for any army that is just going to sit on the shelf.
Arbiter_Shade wrote: but all of this is balanced by the fact that we can run an insane amount of units now.
I keep seeing this, but unless you were running 3 Tyranofexes before, the points adjustment was not nearly enough to see any noticeable chance in model count.
Termagants went down 1 PPM, but if you want Toxin Sacs or Adrenal glands, then you are actually paying 1 PPM MORE than previous; the Tervigon no longer shares those biomorphs.
Hormagaunts went down 1 PPM. 30 points across a full brood of 30 hormies that still won't see the table with the scything talons nerf. Want adrenal glands? Enjoy paying same cost as Termagants for half the benefit.
Gargoyles? Same cost.
Hive Guard? 5 PPM MORE than before.
Most points adjustments are simply not that big. You're looking at 30 points here, 10 points there. You one more MC, or a single brood of gribblies. Certainly nothing "insane" about that.
Have we seen everything? I haven't seen anything, just the bitching and moaning of people who HAVE seen something, and scans from a spanish copy of the book. The hard unassailable facts about the codex (statlines, actual rules wordings, etc.) that I have seen, if anything, to me point to a major boost in power of properly built armies by way of points cuts across the board. Yes Tervigons, Swarmlord, and a couple other units jumped up a few points in cost, but you know what? They were undercosted and overutilized to begin with, this only makes other options look more attractive and more worth taking.
You might say that the costs are insignificant, I say otherwise. In a list where I fielded 27 shrikes, that adds up to a 135 point savings. 90 Hormagaunts saves me 90 points. 3 carnifexes? Fuggedaboudit, i'm saving like another 100 points right there. Most of the griping and butthurt is coming from people that invested in something stupid like 5 Tervigons and/or 3 Trygons and/or sold all their Carnifexes now realizing that they basically have to buy new armies because *SURPRISE* the blatantly broken units that they relied upon and way overused previous edition are now perfectly balanced.
chaos0xomega wrote: Have we seen everything? I haven't seen anything, just the bitching and moaning of people who HAVE seen something, and scans from a spanish copy of the book. The hard unassailable facts about the codex (statlines, actual rules wordings, etc.) that I have seen, if anything, to me point to a major boost in power of properly built armies by way of points cuts across the board. Yes Tervigons, Swarmlord, and a couple other units jumped up a few points in cost, but you know what? They were undercosted and overutilized to begin with, this only makes other options look more attractive and more worth taking.
There are multiple Dakkanauts with the codex, so yes, we have seen everything. Re: points cost, I summarized the changes to nid units from the 5e dex to the 6e dex. As per my post above, the cost reductions are simply not drastic enough to have any meaningful impact unless you were running 3 tyranofexes. In some cases, point costs jumped insanely for no added benefit. (See: Tyranid Prime remaining unchanged, but going from 80 points to 125 points.)
The book looks like a rush job, and if the rumors posted in this thread are to be believed, it WAS a rush job. Really, there is no other reasonable explanation.
Streamdragon I agree for the most part but the most substantial buffs and point reductions came from the Carnifex. I know for a fact I would run more Carnifex now that they are costed reasonably and are viable now. That is how I see the point changes affecting Tyranids at large. A little bit here and there but a brood of 3 Carnifex are now 120 points cheaper, that is a big deal.
Didn't people say this same gak about the Daemons codex back when it was going to be released? "Oh these units and HQs are gak, this is gak, they've nerfed us blah blah blah" and its now the most OP codex in the game? People need to sit there asses down and shut up sometimes, you don't know how its going to work until you actually use it a few times.
I was really looking forward to this codex. I was expecting pretty much everything to get better pricing at the very least.
Of all the things I've seen thus far, I can't imagine why Hive Guard losing -1BS and getting a 4+ armor instead of 3+ armor warrants a 5pts increase.
Cheaper carnifexes seems like something of a boon, and my nid friend would prefer to run a godzilla army.
It doesn't look very good that far, but I would wait several weeks after release to make proper judgment. I wouldn't recommend buying anything Tyranid other than the codex tomorrow, unless you're a die-hard nid fan.
Psienesis wrote:Replace "Tyranid" with "Tau" and we could replicate the same threads that were being posted before (and at the time of) the Tau Codex was released.
CthuluIsSpy wrote:
Psienesis wrote: Replace "Tyranid" with "Tau" and we could replicate the same threads that were being posted before (and at the time of) the Tau Codex was released.
Or tyranid with necron.
People keep repeating things like this as though they are A) true and B) equivalent in any way.
I remember the run-up to these codices and I remember when they dropped:
Tau had a lot of good buzz and people were mostly very excited. People mostly were disappointed in the flyers (correctly so), the lack of improvement in some subpar units like Vespids (correctly so), and the nerfs to vehicle speeds (correctly so at least insofar as it helped lock Tau into being a gunline). There was a vocal minority of older Tau players who were very disappointed that it became "codex markerlights", but most people didn't really seem to mind, and the response to the markerlight system seemed mostly favorable (perhaps underestimating its power). People also underestimated the Riptide, but no one was saying it was unusable or even bad. Just potentially overpriced or not as powerful as it appeared. Some people were already saying it was OP. The consensus not converging on an answer right away is forgivable; this was a totally new unit and a departure from anything the Tau had ever had access to, so evaluating it was probably difficult until people had a chance to run them. Most people realized the power of things like the supporting fire rules pretty quickly. I don't remember anyone saying Tau would be weaker than before. The general consensus was that they got a decent boost at the very least.
Verdict: Mostly favorable opinion, underestimated power level somewhat, especially on new and radically different unit.
Eldar had even fewer leaks than usual from what I recall, so it was hard to tell what was coming out until we got a flood of info near the end. People were excited about battle focus and the BS buffs (correct), opinions were split on the new wraighknight (some said OP, some said overpriced). Most of the Aspect warriors looked ok, but there was a lot of disappointment over the Howling Banshees (correct). People were also disappointed about Dire Avengers and to a lesser extent guardians until pseudo-rending was revealed on shuriken weapons, at which point people realized they were pretty damn good. People were also disappointed in the price of the wave serpent, but once the serpent shield was revealed I remember most people thinking it was at least ok if not pretty powerful, but a totally weird and unexpected way to design the wave serpent. Took awhile for it to be commonly known how broken the wave serpent was.
Verdict: Mostly favorable opinion, underestimated power level due to broken unit and ways in which the allies matrix could be abused for wombo-combos.
Necrons are probably the least relevant codex you could bring up besides maybe Dark Eldar. We're talking a ground-up redesign of the codex with a TON of brand new units and big changes to iconic rules like We'll Be Back. This was also a 5th edition dex, and Necrons were not truly broken until 6th edition, where changes to core rule mechanics gave them a lot of big buffs they didn't pay for points-wise or even need (high hull points on standard vehicles, jink saves everywhere, vehicles priced like skimmers transformed into flyers, etc). So between some grognards being resistant to big changes, the general inability of anyone to evaluate a massively overhauled codex without playing a lot of games, and the lack of clairvoyance to predict what 6th would soon do to the codex, I don't see how you could point to Necrons as similar to what's going on with Nids now.
Verdict: Why did you even bring this up?
With the Tyranid codex, the 5th edition codex is already underwhelming and relies on things like Tervigon spam and Biomancy to stay afloat against more powerful armies. We already know this. The crux of all this drama is that as leaks kept coming, people already familiar with the Nids saw that the useless units weren't getting fixed, crutches were being removed left and right, entire build options were invalidated by removing units (see Mycetic spore), and little nerfs were popping up left and right. Nearly the only things going for the Nids were point reductions and new units/artifacts, and the promise of potential army-wide rules no one had seen yet. Well, the new stuff is not that hard to evaluate just from the rules - the artifacts are flat-out bad and aren't game changers. The new units can be evaluated pretty easily as they're similar enough to existing Nid units and/or fill similar roles - the Crone is a Harpy clone with better weapons (not durable enough, low damage output, especially for the points cost). The Haruspex is the answer to a question no one asked ("How can I, as a Tyranid, kill enemy infantry?") and isn't even good at it, but at least it puts a monstrous creature in the Elites slot. And the Exocrine, at least that has some promise for offering medium ranged AP2, but it's a little underwhelming. And now the codex is entirely leaked and there are no hidden rules like Bladestorm to unexpectedly save things.
Verdict: Disappointing. Lots of missed opportunities. It looks significantly weaker than the old dex, but I'm sure cumulative point reductions will help and sneaky combos will emerge. Expect it to be about the same as the old dex power-wise.
Psienesis wrote: Replace "Tyranid" with "Tau" and we could replicate the same threads that were being posted before (and at the time of) the Tau Codex was released.
I am getting REALLY tired of this argument. Yes, people whinned about Tau and were wrong. People are whinning about Tyranids but you know what? We have seen the entire codex now. It is exactly the same as the 5th codex except the new units. The new units aren't bringing anything huge to the table that we didn't already have. The new Nids are the old Nids, minus Tervigon spam, so we DO know how this codex is going to be. It is going to be a terribly bland codex with middle of the road power. Maybe there is a hidden power list in here somewhere and I am open to that possibility, but that doesn't change how terribly underwhelming this product is. A lot of iconic units are still trash, trash units are still trash, and the power units of 5th are now just mediocre, but all of this is balanced by the fact that we can run an insane amount of units now.
Tyranids will be just fine, just like CSM are just fine, both codices are trash though. They are bland, uninspired, and poorly written. I love my CSM and still play them DESPITE this. I just wont put up with another $50 codex for any army that is just going to sit on the shelf.
So you're butthurt that the Tyranids did not become the cheesefest that the Tau did, even though it took a few weeks for people to figure out the Tau cheese?
ultimentra wrote: Didn't people say this same gak about the Daemons codex back when it was going to be released? "Oh these units and HQs are gak, this is gak, they've nerfed us blah blah blah" and its now the most OP codex in the game? People need to sit there asses down and shut up sometimes, you don't know how its going to work until you actually use it a few times.
See my explanation for Necrons above. Daemons was a huge re-write, almost every unit changed dramatically and the whole army's composition and play style was different. Consensus about them was mixed because no one could properly evaluate such a different dex. Even this long after the fact I think the Daemon dex is middle of the road without abusing the 2++ re-rollable nonsense.
The biggest changes to the Nid codex were negative, but the codex overall is not that different from the 5th dex. I'd say only the impact of reduced points costs are a wildcard now. Maybe it will make up for sweeping nerfs elsewhere, maybe not. Look for a few exploitable combos to be found to make up for the drop in power level eventually and the codex to remain mid to bottom tier.
ultimentra wrote: Didn't people say this same gak about the Daemons codex back when it was going to be released? "Oh these units and HQs are gak, this is gak, they've nerfed us blah blah blah" and its now the most OP codex in the game? People need to sit there asses down and shut up sometimes, you don't know how its going to work until you actually use it a few times.
I borrowed my friend's Eldar codex and knew within 30 min how they were going to work. No experience necessary; just some maths.
Psienesis wrote: Replace "Tyranid" with "Tau" and we could replicate the same threads that were being posted before (and at the time of) the Tau Codex was released.
I am getting REALLY tired of this argument. Yes, people whinned about Tau and were wrong. People are whinning about Tyranids but you know what? We have seen the entire codex now. It is exactly the same as the 5th codex except the new units. The new units aren't bringing anything huge to the table that we didn't already have. The new Nids are the old Nids, minus Tervigon spam, so we DO know how this codex is going to be. It is going to be a terribly bland codex with middle of the road power. Maybe there is a hidden power list in here somewhere and I am open to that possibility, but that doesn't change how terribly underwhelming this product is. A lot of iconic units are still trash, trash units are still trash, and the power units of 5th are now just mediocre, but all of this is balanced by the fact that we can run an insane amount of units now.
Tyranids will be just fine, just like CSM are just fine, both codices are trash though. They are bland, uninspired, and poorly written. I love my CSM and still play them DESPITE this. I just wont put up with another $50 codex for any army that is just going to sit on the shelf.
So you're butthurt that the Tyranids did not become the cheesefest that the Tau did, even though it took a few weeks for people to figure out the Tau cheese?
No, CSM can cheese pretty hard too. You're missing the point. No one wants to rely on one cheesy unit or a cheesy unit combo to be competitive. Just like CSM would rather have a well-designed codex with a broader base of decent units instead of a codex that clearly did not attempt to fix any old units and added broken or useless new ones instead.
It remains to be seen how much of an impact the points reductions will have for bringing old units back from the dead. Carnifexes are a good buy now almost for sure, Tyrannofexes are a better buy too. Mawlocs are looking much better. Heavy support is getting crowded. Virtually everything else looks the same or worse. Dealing with enemy flyers is still a problem - Crones do not have the damage output or staying power, so Flyrants will stay en vogue.
Like I said, I expect people to find some cheese to keep the codex alive, but I don't expect it to change the competitive meta at all.
CSM is a pretty miserable codex both to play with (army swap) and against. If I can kill/minimize the helldrakes, they are in for a long day. Yeah, spawn are a thing, but they are very mortal compared to Tau/Eldar/Daemons.
No one wants to rely on one cheesy unit or a cheesy unit combo to be competitive
Hasn't that been the Tyranid bag for a few years now? Ironarm on giant bugs and Doom to basically eat people via wi-fi?
Yeah. I think people were hoping for that to no longer be necessary.
My biggest worry right now is that Instinctive Behavior is seriously bad and through a combination of changes, synapse units are not going to be durable enough, and thus Troops will not be durable enough.
Loss of Iron Arm, plus hitting the Tervigon with the nerf bat till it popped, means you will have fewer, weaker synapse creatures (compared with the old 2+ Tervigons build), so it will be easier to eliminate your synapse, or at least remove coverage somewhere important. Once that happens, the odds are roughly 30% every turn that each unit will randomly run away or hurt itself (odds of failing Ld 6 is about 60%, then 50/50 chance of rolling the bad Instinctive Behavior result). Taking a Prime and attaching it to literally ANYTHING to keep it alive longer is probably going to be mandatory now, which is probably why the Prime's point value went up 50% without any changes to the unit itself.
Psienesis wrote: Replace "Tyranid" with "Tau" and we could replicate the same threads that were being posted before (and at the time of) the Tau Codex was released.
I am getting REALLY tired of this argument. Yes, people whinned about Tau and were wrong. People are whinning about Tyranids but you know what? We have seen the entire codex now. It is exactly the same as the 5th codex except the new units. The new units aren't bringing anything huge to the table that we didn't already have. The new Nids are the old Nids, minus Tervigon spam, so we DO know how this codex is going to be. It is going to be a terribly bland codex with middle of the road power. Maybe there is a hidden power list in here somewhere and I am open to that possibility, but that doesn't change how terribly underwhelming this product is. A lot of iconic units are still trash, trash units are still trash, and the power units of 5th are now just mediocre, but all of this is balanced by the fact that we can run an insane amount of units now.
Tyranids will be just fine, just like CSM are just fine, both codices are trash though. They are bland, uninspired, and poorly written. I love my CSM and still play them DESPITE this. I just wont put up with another $50 codex for any army that is just going to sit on the shelf.
So you're butthurt that the Tyranids did not become the cheesefest that the Tau did, even though it took a few weeks for people to figure out the Tau cheese?
I can't even begin to argue with this level of stupid. Where on earth do you get that I want Tyranids to be cheese like Tau? Is this the same mentality that leads people to think that 5th favored assault even though every tournament list was filled with shooting? See how ridiculous is is to insult someone then bring up something that isn't even related to what is being discussed?
Listen. People whine about every release, it is true. Most of the time they are wrong. But in this case, it really isn't hard to see how bad the new Tyranid codex is because it is the exact same codex minus all of the good things from 5th edition. Seriously, go look at the codex right now it has been completely leaked, it is the same codex sans everything that made the 5th one able to compete. There is no magic bullet hidden in there like Screamstar. A viable melee unit needs a couple of things to work and in 6th that thing is a 2++ rerollable save. Well good news for the people who hate this kind of cheese there are exactly 2 invul saves in all of the Tyranid codex and niether of them can be modified in anyway. This codex has such a lack of options that there isn't going to be a whole lot of hidden gems, most everything is pretty much a straight stat line with no special rules. The funniest things in the codex are the questionable wording on the Pyrovore and Deathleaper/Spore Mine bomb. That is part of the problem with this codex, everything is just as it is. There are no really nifty special rules, no synergy, just straight up stat lines. It is the same problem that the 5th codex had and the 6th continues the lineage that is sub-par Tyranid Codices.
And in case anyone missed it the first time I said it, this codex WILL be playable. It will work just fine against most list and play decently at a noncompetitive level. The PROBLEMS with the codex are that it removes more options than it adds, it adds nothing new to the game, it address a single problem with the 5th codex, because credit where credit is due Carnifex will actually be worth running now, and there are just questionable changes riddling the entire book. There is no controversy about how good any of the new units are going to be because they are so straight forward in what they do and how they do it that it can be plainly seen if you just read the codex. The Exocrine is going to be a decent shooty bug that can take a beating. It isn't going to wow anyone like the Riptide did because it can't be buffed by outside sources with the exception of FNP, it shoots plasma and it shoots a good amount of plasma. It will be great against MEG but less than useful against anything else. It doesn't have the range to threaten things like DE or IG, it can be tied up in melee fairly easily due to WS3 A3, but man will it kill TEQ and MEQ by the dozen! As if MEQ wasn't already falling into disuse in 6th because of the insane amount of things that just flat out ignore armor. The new fliers are...well one isn't new and still bad and the one new flier is...lacking? It isn't going to kill any enemy fliers before it goes down itself, it is squishy as all get out, and it will more than likely never get to use its 4+ save. The Haruspex is again, lacking, at WS3 A3 it isn't going to wow anyone but it will get the job done, as long as that job is to kill MEQs. A swarm will tarpit the hell out of it because it only gets A3 after its charge. It is tanky as all get out though, I will give it that.
I am not calling this codex unplayable. It is nowhere near Eldar/Tau. It is playable. I am just massively disappointed in what COULD have been a great opportunity to breath new life into a stagnating army.
I'm definitely not happy with the new Tyranids but I'm not going to boycott them. I guess it is more disappointment than anything.
I saw what Tau, Eldar, and SM got, and that made me excited for what Tyranids MIGHT get. So I followed all the rumors and continually built up my excitement. "Oh man, this is going to be great." is what I kept telling myself. But then the day came and I got to see everything and is was nothing like I thought it would be. It was not another Tau or Eldar, or even SM like codex. That disappointment then turned to anger and frustration. From the looks of the Tyranid Rumor thread, I'm not the only one either. What could have been was not what was. Especially since Tyranids can't supplement their weaknesses with Allies like every other book can.
My guess is that things will turn out like the CSM codex. Only a few units will actually be worth taking, 1 or 2 builds will actually be decent and they will probably focus on spamming 1 good unit, much like helldrake spam. The rest will be ignored or played "just for fun".
I feel bad for our Nid player. He does not play competetively in the slightest. This nerf will make it difficult for him to win games. (He already loses more than he should.)
I keep seeing this bs about how people were raging over tau and how bad they were when they came out, as someone who owns tau and followed the entire thing I can tell you when it was leaked and then came out there was very little complaining, just few guys here and there crying about broadsides losing STR-10 but there was far FAR more of us saying wow this looks MUCH MUCH better than our old dex and boy that riptide looks pretty good and everything got better or just cheaper so....yay
I started a small Tyranid force and happily awaited this release thinking that I'd have another decent CC army again until my BA are updated. This release has one mono build of Flying circus and is VERY uninspired and a flat lazy (or time pressed makes A LOT of sense) codex , you don't need to "wait and see" for that just read that dang thing which a lot of us have at this point cause they've been in our local shop for viewing for a couple days OR you could just read the 95% of it out on the Internet now.
This goes beyond just a couple people crying cause the book isn't a world beater this is a large largeeeee chunk of the Tyranid fans sitting in disbelief that this is what came out. I have a large doubt that this is going to change in the next couple weeks.
I guess I can forget Nids. Oh well, if the rumors about Orks and their wyrd tokens are true they could be awesome to play (or of course suck as well). I'll stick to my screamerstar for now...
If GW wanted Nid players to feel like keeping Synapse on as many units as possible is something they want, they should just have gone down the DoWII road.
Make non-Synapse nid units slightly overcosted, and make Synapse give them buffs when in range to compensate. (Extra shots/attacks? Higher WS/BS? Preferred enemy? 6+ FNP? Things like that.)
BlackArmour wrote: I keep seeing this bs about how people were raging over tau and how bad they were when they came out, as someone who owns tau and followed the entire thing I can tell you when it was leaked and then came out there was very little complaining, just few guys here and there crying about broadsides losing STR-10 but there was far FAR more of us saying wow this looks MUCH MUCH better than our old dex and boy that riptide looks pretty good and everything got better or just cheaper so....yay
I don't know what forum you were in, but it wasn't here. Almost all Tau veterans condemned the new book, and it had nothing to do with Broadsides losing S10.
Look im holding a Codex in hand and comparing it to the last codex. Every single ATTEMPT to buff this codex has to do with somethign eating something else in melee. I CANNOT MAKE IT ACROSS THE TABLE with every single unit in every other codex having some form of str5 ap2 RAPES BUGS.
Not only did we lose access to armored shell but we didnt gain a single wound. OOOO YEAH THE FUN FACT theres no more toughness 9 to save bugs, matter of fact lets not even put that anywhere in the codex. Its like gw said heres your form of the hell turkey will give it +1 to its vector strike.
And for doing so well take away doom, who averaged a 11 on 3d6, and replace it with a 1/6 chance of getting the power in the first place followed by a 2d6+2(9avg). So cool if everything had LD8 but it doesnt.
Lets not even stop their lets go ahead and make it so that your shooty units, Zoey's, shoot as a group and as the math was pointed out RARELY CAUSE A SINGLE WOUND. O and lets follow that by removing your only means of getting them across the Board. No spore no problem ill just wait3-5 turns and hope they come from reserve so i can get 1 chance of shooting with them before they die. TERRIBLE BOOK
you wanna play nids? ask to play for the fun vs a fun list, then you can actually make a good fight, otherwise, steamroll at max with bodies falling apart everywhere..
You will have to augment the list with other choices. The mandatory 30 gaunt tax to unlock tervigons can still find a place, and your fast attack slot will have to work overtime to keep pressure on the opponent in order to allow your other elements of the army to advance and be a factor in the game.
NIDZILLA IS NOT BACK nids lost access to everything allowing them to up their t6.
Your going to be shot down by everything in the game before you can get your MC across the board. THERE ARE NO GEMS read as much as you can its been out for days and its the worst product ive ever seen produced
Automatically Appended Next Post: Ive been playing a ton of nids as of late and im losing 1-3 FMC/MC per turn with IRION ARM now without it how many do you think will go down?
Bloodynecronight wrote: NIDZILLA IS NOT BACK nids lost access to everything allowing them to up their t6.
Your going to be shot down by everything in the game before you can get your MC across the board. THERE ARE NO GEMS read as much as you can its been out for days and its the worst product ive ever seen produced
Automatically Appended Next Post: Ive been playing a ton of nids as of late and im losing 1-3 FMC/MC per turn with IRION ARM now without it how many do you think will go down?
reading thru, it's more complex than the cliche.
For instance, I was pissed that Hive Commander lost the buff to reserve rolls. But it's 5 points cheaper, and you can stack (outflank two troops for HC two flyrants).
Also, I think ymgarls and maybe even the Doom will be back, they're mentioned in the codex.
It's a massive pain, but new glimmers of light will emerge. We're not totally disheartened - but we want to rework our army without giving GW loads more dosh.
If you're losing 1-3 MC per turn WITH IRON ARM... maybe you're doing something wrong already?
Bloodynecronight wrote: NIDZILLA IS NOT BACK nids lost access to everything allowing them to up their t6.
Your going to be shot down by everything in the game before you can get your MC across the board. THERE ARE NO GEMS read as much as you can its been out for days and its the worst product ive ever seen produced
Automatically Appended Next Post: Ive been playing a ton of nids as of late and im losing 1-3 FMC/MC per turn with IRION ARM now without it how many do you think will go down?
reading thru, it's more complex than the cliche.
For instance, I was pissed that Hive Commander lost the buff to reserve rolls. But it's 5 points cheaper, and you can stack (outflank two troops for HC two flyrants).
Also, I think ymgarls and maybe even the Doom will be back, they're mentioned in the codex.
It's a massive pain, but new glimmers of light will emerge. We're not totally disheartened - but we want to rework our army without giving GW loads more dosh.
If you're losing 1-3 MC per turn WITH IRON ARM... maybe you're doing something wrong already?
See, I thought they couldn't take BRB powers anymore?
Bloodynecronight wrote: NIDZILLA IS NOT BACK nids lost access to everything allowing them to up their t6.
Your going to be shot down by everything in the game before you can get your MC across the board. THERE ARE NO GEMS read as much as you can its been out for days and its the worst product ive ever seen produced
Automatically Appended Next Post: Ive been playing a ton of nids as of late and im losing 1-3 FMC/MC per turn with IRION ARM now without it how many do you think will go down?
reading thru, it's more complex than the cliche.
For instance, I was pissed that Hive Commander lost the buff to reserve rolls. But it's 5 points cheaper, and you can stack (outflank two troops for HC two flyrants).
Also, I think ymgarls and maybe even the Doom will be back, they're mentioned in the codex.
It's a massive pain, but new glimmers of light will emerge. We're not totally disheartened - but we want to rework our army without giving GW loads more dosh.
If you're losing 1-3 MC per turn WITH IRON ARM... maybe you're doing something wrong already?
See, I thought they couldn't take BRB powers anymore?
They can't. Nids can only use the powers from their codex.
Von Chogg wrote: Wait till tomorrow, then wait another few months
lobbywatson wrote: Maybe they should play a couple 20 games or so before boycotting....
Psienesis wrote: So you're butthurt that the Tyranids did not become the cheesefest that the Tau did, even though it took a few weeks for people to figure out the Tau cheese?
BlaxicanX wrote: Reading the past few pages of this thread reminds me of IMDB's sub-communities for movies that bomb.
Stage 1: Initial announcement of product. Be jaded.
Stage 2: Details begin to trickle in. Get cautiously optimistic.
Stage 3: Details start flowing. Red-flags show up for those still jaded, the optimistic go into wise-man mode and lash out against the jaded for making assumptions without knowing all the details.
Stage 4: A final bombshell of information is released, for movies this is the various trailers. All gak hits the fan. Many of the optimistic give in to their grief but the most stalwart insist that we still don't know all the details yet. Maybe the trailer was just bad. The marketing team is bad. The film could still be good! The jaded are bitterly laughing their asses off.
Stage 5. Community embraces the horror. The blame-game begins for the crestfallen, while the most stalwart, those who simply refuse to be phased, spend months insisting that the movie wasn't that bad; defending its flaws and attacking other members of the community (for 40K, this will be the group of people who insist for months that the community needs more time to judge the codex after its release. "We don't know all the best builds yet! Give it some time! There's still strong combos that we might have missed! Dataslates and expansion!" Just because there's no 2++ invuln cheese doesn't mean its bad!)
I'd love it if the people who think this Codex is good, or the "just wait and see" crowd would actually try to come up with a rebuttal to the unit-by-unit breakdown in the first post rather than dismissing it without any actual counter points.
I still can't get over the limited edition rule books. I will never understand those who buy them either. They're double the cost for precisely nothing of worth....
Other than the collector's value. Because if we go by anything else, the entire hobby is spectacularly worthless.
I've got the option to play in a Tier-2 style tournament on Saturday, if i'm willing to make the hour drive to get there. Using the new tyranids, of course.
Tier-2 because there's a 0-1 restriction on all units from all codices except troops choices. So i could only take 1 trygon, 1 tyrannofex, and 1 brood of biovores in a legal list for example.
Can someone please explain to me the appeal to restrict the game even more than it already is?
MajorWesJanson wrote: That's not unique. Neither Tau, Necrons, nor Sisters of Battle have psychic powers at all. So stop saying that Nids not having BRB powers is "unique"
I see it[Tyranids] going much like Tau and Eldar Codex releases
*codex comes out*
"Oh great job thanks for making this race totally unplayable"
"Why the hell does the wave serpent still cost so much? no one will use them"
"No one its going to use Riptides/Wraithknights/Big new tyranid model they are pointless"
"GG GW now tau/eldar/nids are horrible thanks alot"
*People take time to read the codex* 1 month passes
Roci wrote: I think there are some people like me. I don't think the book will down right suck. I think they will be middle of the roadish.. have some unique quirky stuff but they are not going to be knocking anyone off the top of the hill.
I cancelled my preorder only because I only ever had enough bugs to field the "current" standard build with a few changes here an there. The play style will shift quite a lot and with certain units being removed and ones like the terv not really being viable, I would have to spend a lot of money to rebuild the army. I'm not buying a whole new armies worth of models to stay middle of the road. If I could have bought a few models.. the codex and made a run of it.. I likely would have kept it.. I would be fine banishing the nids to the basement to only be played in home rule games.
tihs is it right here... "buy more models"...if you expected something else then...you just haven't been paying attention
I love a good game...but this as long as Games Workshop is involved...it'll never be about the Game....
MajorWesJanson wrote: That's not unique. Neither Tau, Necrons, nor Sisters of Battle have psychic powers at all. So stop saying that Nids not having BRB powers is "unique"
Only if you stop make disingenuous arguments.
So pointing out something that is factually incorrect is a disingenuous argument? And as was mentioned, Orks don't have access to the BRB powers either, and they do have psykers.
The new nid codex has a ton of problems as is, no need to add incorrect facts to the mix just to increase the pathos.
I see it[Tyranids] going much like Tau and Eldar Codex releases
*codex comes out*
"Oh great job thanks for making this race totally unplayable"
"Why the hell does the wave serpent still cost so much? no one will use them"
"No one its going to use Riptides/Wraithknights/Big new tyranid model they are pointless"
"GG GW now tau/eldar/nids are horrible thanks alot"
*People take time to read the codex* 1 month passes
"WtfGW Tau/Eldar/nids are OP blah blah blah"
Now we wait.... for one month
Plot twist - Ninjacommando has been in a coma for all of 6th edition and apparently dreamed a bunch of stuff that didn't happen.
H.B.M.C. wrote:I'd love it if the people who think this Codex is good, or the "just wait and see" crowd would actually try to come up with a rebuttal to the unit-by-unit breakdown in the first post rather than dismissing it without any actual counter points.
But that's a fething pipe dream, ain't it?
You mean the report based on rumor and hearsay?
I've heard otherwise from other sources that claiming they got a copy early and actually provided pics with the book in hand for proof.
Abandon wrote: You mean the report based on rumor and hearsay?
Rumour and hearsay? Where have you been for the past week? Not only is the book out, but we've had actual photographs of the army list and unit entry pages for days now.
Abandon wrote: You mean the report based on rumor and hearsay?
Rumour and hearsay? Where have you been for the past week? Not only is the book out, but we've had actual photographs of the army list and unit entry pages for days now.
Get with the program...
As far as I know the book was released today/yesterday (depending where you are in the world). So what? Most people still don't have a copy themselves.
"keeping in mind all of this will be revised / may change based upon holding and playing with the total codex"
This line taken from the link provided in the OP indicates that it is not based on a complete copy of the book in hand or otherwise thus leaving much room for error due to incomplete information. So yes, I take it as rumor and hearsay. If it were all strictly factually based, this line would not be there.
And what program do you speak of? Perhaps the one where you download scanned images of copyrighted materials? That would be illegal, what kind of monster would do such a thing? Seriously though, my copy will be here in a few days and I'm quite patient enough to wait for it. Who knows, I may join the rage party with you when I do. We'll just have to see.
RavenousD has a copy and he confirmed that the codex is more or less the same as was reported earlier. It's a real shame that Tyranids got screwed over.
I don't think the "Oh, all codices are thought to be terrible then are really really good" applies here since Tyranids didn't get much and lost a lot more.
I'm just amazed that the GW design team have such little imagination, if I or any of my friends were asked to design the codex they'd be army wide special rules and kooky abilities coming out the walls! I understand it's to do with balance...but so little changed and the new huge griblies are so dull rules wise.
it's just a shame, I honestly think almost anyone with a basic grasp on what's considered OP and what's not could have made the nids something more than a glorified FAQ
I know there is some good builds in this book, but overall it is a letdown. Especially because I was finally hoping to finally play an all-warrior troop list and at least not be laughed off the board (which I may still be able to because according to this site warriors become "good" only because every other troop choice got worse).
Here's hoping the dataslate(s) provide a band-aid, or rather several band-aids.
Didn't you know that according to large parts of the online community of 40k players just about everything GW does is on par with Original Sin?
Seriously though, the book doesn't look that competitive but I think competitive as it stands right now is dead and we'd be better off having Kill Team tournaments. The book does look fun though.
I'm no hardcore tournament player, not by a long shot, so I'll just take this book and run with it.
I plan on using squads of Stealers led by Broodlords, a Mawloc, Biovores and Dakkafexes, and plenty of Spore Mines shenanigans. Swarmlord auto-passing Look Out Sir onto his Guard will make it easier for him to cross the board unscathed, despite his lack of EW so i'll throw him in there, too. I'll enjoy it regardless of the result, which is what the hobby is all about for me.
ClockworkZion is right, you could actually field a pretty formidable Kill Team with the new codex!
To the guy in here calling us all powergamers for being less then impressed with the dex, yet has whiteknighted the new dex all the way through each new release of information, simply because it has given us a cheaper nidzilla monobuild (you know who you are) you should maybe take a look at how hypocritical and irrelevant your opinion comes across as.
Powergaming in its purest form is being happy with this dex and its points reduction of the MC kits with dwindling popularity (oh everyone has their Tervigons / Trygons / Hive Guard glued up? Let's nerf em and gives buffs to Tyrannofex / Mawloc / Tyrant Guard) , simply because you feel that it might give you a stronger competitive monobuild, and that this is a worthy trade to you for the loss of so much of the competitive options and strategies available in the last dex, combined with the addition of none.
To put into perspective, this new codex literally has less units in it than the last one!! We had 4 things taken out and only 3 put in. The 4 things we lost were units that either added many strategic options or had unique rules and flavor (mostly both), but the things we gained were a bad Harpy knockoff and a Hive Guard replacement. It's even been revealed that the units weren't taken out because of strategic gameplay, so without care for their own customers these units were removed to get rid of a point of revenue for Chapterhouse that was being created by GW's laziness when it came to making a model for the unit.
The worst is the people in here "b-b-b-b-b-but TAU DEX !! ELDAR DEX!!!!" . Yeah the comparison isn't even accurate anymore. We already know what this dex does. It does what the last one does, just worse. The whiners who complained about the Eldar dex had alot of untrod ground to work out, and by release a lot of open mouths have been fed and people had come around. This is almost the exact opposite of whats happened here, we know our dex back to front, and upon release the community has exploded with negative feedback, with people far smarter than the dex-hoppers and Eldar-skeptics saying that this release is terrible.
I'll be boycotting this release. It won't be hard to, it's barely even by choice. I don't need any of the new models and there is no way in hell I'm stupid enough to pay $80 for a book that has been rushed to publication, with a ruleset described in its current state by the playtesting team as "keeps getting walked over by every army", but still pushed into print by GW to move some packaged Spacedragon units.
SHUPPET wrote: To the guy in here calling us all powergamers for being less then impressed with the dex, yet has whiteknighted the new dex all the way through each new release of information, simply because it has given us a cheaper nidzilla monobuild (you know who you are) you should maybe take a look at how hypocritical and irrelevant your opinion comes across as.
Powergaming in its purest form is being happy with this dex and its points reduction of the MC kits with dwindling popularity (oh everyone has their Tervigons / Trygons / Hive Guard glued up? Let's nerf em and gives buffs to Tyrannofex / Mawloc / Tyrant Guard) , simply because you feel that it might give you a stronger competitive monobuild, and that this is a worthy trade to you for the loss of so much of the competitive options and strategies available in the last dex, combined with the addition of none.
To put into perspective, this new codex literally has less units in it than the last one!! We had 4 things taken out and only 3 put in. The 4 things we lost were units that either added many strategic options or had unique rules and flavor (mostly both), but the things we gained were a bad Harpy knockoff and a Hive Guard replacement. It's even been revealed that the units weren't taken out because of strategic gameplay, so without care for their own customers these units were removed to get rid of a point of revenue for Chapterhouse that was being created by GW's laziness when it came to making a model for the unit.
The worst is the people in here "b-b-b-b-b-but TAU DEX !! ELDAR DEX!!!!" . Yeah the comparison isn't even accurate anymore. We already know what this dex does. It does what the last one does, just worse. The whiners who complained about the Eldar dex had alot of untrod ground to work out, and by release a lot of open mouths have been fed and people had come around. This is almost the exact opposite of whats happened here, we know our dex back to front, and upon release the community has exploded with negative feedback, with people far smarter than the dex-hoppers and Eldar-skeptics saying that this release is terrible.
I'll be boycotting this release. It won't be hard to, it's barely even by choice. I don't need any of the new models and there is no way in hell I'm stupid enough to pay $80 for a book that has been rushed to publication, with a ruleset described in its current state by the playtesting team as "keeps getting walked over by every army", but still pushed into print by GW to move some packaged Spacedragon units.
This makes me sad. The only person who will miss out will be you by not playing a great faction.
i have not seen the new book, Yes it's only £20 in the UK which isn't a lot for me, so i will buy it even though i don't play nids. But there will be competitive options and various tactics that can be used to defeat any arms. Peole seem to forget at the heart of the gamneplay is rock, paper scissors. No if Rock get horrendously overpowered i will lose if i am scissors, but not if i take paper!
Fortunately the hobby isn't all about winning for me. Forging a narrative and having some giggles with fluff are far more important in most of my games. I have an 'Alien' themed Tyranid army with appropriate conversions throughout, and I'll be taking Acid Blood with as many units as I possibly can!! :-D
madd_leeroy wrote: Peole seem to forget at the heart of the gamneplay is rock, paper scissors. No if Rock get horrendously overpowered i will lose if i am scissors, but not if i take paper!
My head exploded that you could think that was an accurate analogy.
As a non-nid player, but one who is an avid fan of new books for the changes and additions they bring, this is pretty disappointing.
Would've loved to see the big guys take on more significant presence with price-hike to boost.
"Attack the hundred gaunts, or the guy leading them that can dish out just as much?"
Instead it seems:
"Kill all the gaunts, or kill the synapse and let them kill themselves. Hmm."
No, it's not unplayable but no one is arguing that. It's not competitive. It will be a struggle to win - almost without exception, and that's no fun for anyone. You should be able to decide between a "fun/fluffy" list where yeah, it's a pain but you enjoy the "cinema" of the battle or appreciate a different take on strategy and your traditional TAC style game.
Instead it's between, "Buy a bunch of models and watch them evaporate because herp or stick with one possible build where with significantly greater strategy and roll of the dice I have about an average chance to win. -Derp."
The weird thing is, Nids are so unique that they had plenty of opportunities.
Can you imagine how much better this could have been with JUST a special rule or two thrown in?
"The Great Devourer"
As Tyranid organisms rain down upon the planets surface, terraforming has already begun at earnest pace. Every round, the Tyranid player may nominate a single piece of terrain or mark a single space of "x" size as having become dangerous terrain. Additionally, enemy troops within 2" begin to suffer from the myriad spores and other microorganisms choking the air and suffer -1T.
"Singular Purpose"
If a Tyranid creature loses synapse connection, they are immediately granted the Rage and Rampage USR and will move / charge the nearest enemy unit.
"Domination"
For each Synapse creature, elect a single unit within its synapse range. This unit gains +1T if their unmodified Toughness is greater than or equal to 5. Units with greater toughness are bestowed eternal warrior. The synapse creature also gains these bonuses.
"Insatiable"
Tyranids units may elect to move an additional d6" in the shooting phase if they choose not to fire any ranged weaponry without the "Assault" characteristic.
Just throwing out ideas.
But seriously, this could have had quite a bit of unique flavor added and .. nadda'.
Pathetic.
TheCustomLime wrote: RavenousD has a copy and he confirmed that the codex is more or less the same as was reported earlier. It's a real shame that Tyranids got screwed over.
I don't think the "Oh, all codices are thought to be terrible then are really really good" applies here since Tyranids didn't get much and lost a lot more.
We got a copy the same time.
It is overall a nerf, with the loss of the BRB powers the biggest issue, and it's true that much of the 'dex is lazily written, a copy and paste of what went before.
But the picture is much more complex, and there are glimmers of light. I think the people who always liked running non-spam armies will probably be fine, although the lack of decent troops is a real drag.
We didn't believe most of the rumours (what a right load of BS and wishlisting all of them turned out to be), altho' we're still in mourning for the dream that you might have been able to run gargoyles or shrikes as troops, as you can in some biker lists.
FYI, we collected our codex and Crone from Dark Sphere at midnight last night - they reckon the new tyranid stuff has sold really well.
Edit: I note the repeated rumour that termagants kill themselves out of synapse. They lurk, much as before - it's hormagaunts, carnifexes etc that cannibalise each other.
So much doom and gloom by people that are yet to play a match or build a list. This is almost an identical repeat to the Eldar release and all the crying that caused in the first week or two.
Abandon wrote: As far as I know the book was released today/yesterday (depending where you are in the world). So what? Most people still don't have a copy themselves.
And? So? But? Therefore? Does that mean the photographed pages we saw were fake? What are you saying here, other than failing to address the point I was making?
Abandon wrote: "keeping in mind all of this will be revised / may change based upon holding and playing with the total codex" This line taken from the link provided in the OP indicates that it is not based on a complete copy of the book in hand or otherwise thus leaving much room for error due to incomplete information. So yes, I take it as rumor and hearsay. If it were all strictly factually based, this line would not be there.
No. They were taken from photos. How hard is it to figure out that we've seen the rules in the book, and had them for days now.
Abandon wrote: And what program do you speak of? Perhaps the one where you download scanned images of copyrighted materials? That would be illegal, what kind of monster would do such a thing? Seriously though, my copy will be here in a few days and I'm quite patient enough to wait for it. Who knows, I may join the rage party with you when I do. We'll just have to see.
Again, so what?
Your claim was that we haven't seen anything yet. I said that we have - actual photos of the book. You seem to be saying that we haven't yet and that we still need to "wait and see" what's in the Codex? We've seen what's in it, in two languages for feth's sake! How much more unambiguous can you get???
What are you playing at? Do you practice being insufferably difficult?
it's a shame the 'nid codex is the apparent dissapointment it is. I was hoping it'd be intresting. if this book was rushed that's terriable. Tyranids are one of the codexes it's most important NOT to Rush IMHO. as the bugs by their differnt nature really need some time taken to really get right as they're somewhat radicly differnt from the norm
I'm fairly disappointed from what I'm reading about the state of the new codex, but only because, and I'll echo more than a few people on this thread, they put SO little imagination into updating the old codex. People have been complaining about the old codex for YEARS. It was borderline unplayable (in the tourny scene) and yet they didn't really change or expand the units in creative ways. 6th edition psychic powers gave the codex a big boost, but now they've taken that away, and the lists that people have purchased models to fill no longer seem as viable. Always a bummer...
Even worse to me is something like the Trygon's Subterranean Assault ability, which was always close to unusable because the unit you'd like to enter play through the tunnel may make it's reserve roll before or on the same turn as the Trygon, was I guess carried over without being fixed. How does a company think it's a good decision to carry a near-broken ability over to a new codex? I know it wasn't THE thing people complained about from the last codex, but if you're planning on taking away deployment options (no more mycetic spores), you figure they'd want to make sure the options they are providing are actually viable.
It wouldn't be soooo bad, but the Forgeworld Hades Breaching Drill has the exact rule that the Trygon should/could have (you declare a unit to be arriving through the tunnel, and it comes into play from reserves the turn AFTER the Breaching Drill arrives on the table...so simple it's brilliant). If they were going to copy/paste something, it should have been the first paragraph from that unit's Subterranean Assault.
Personally, I never played with Tervigons, so for me the sky isn't falling for my current collection, but I honestly do not know if I'm going to buy this lazily conceived codex.
Even if I forget all the nerfs we've been talking about, I still can't fathom the change to Rippers. I said this in the other thread but it's worth repeating: They went up in cost. Someone intentionally chose to make this unit cost more... and I just can't figure out why? What was the thought process behind this change? Was there a thought process behind this change? Was it done randomly cinematically? Was it done without thought? Did the person who wrote that entry genuinely thing that Rippers needed to become somehow less useful than the already sit-on-the-shelf-gathering-dust kinda useless they already were?
Don't play nids [and never will - just not my kind of army] but I'm also disappointed that the writing of the codex appears so lackluster. I think it's important that the xenos armies build and play significantly differently to other armies. Bolter vs. bolter and power armour vs. power armour gets boring really quickly.
Dark Eldar, for example, despite taking a big nerf with 6th, still play completely differently to any other army but were still competitive. Also lots of different builds were viable - I almost never see the same DE lists when reading batreps etc. THAT was a well thought out and well written codex.
I think the comparisons to the Chaos Marine dex are valid - lots of WTF units and useless abilities [e.g. Raptors with blind].
My friend was thinking of starting a nids army but that's unlikely now, which is a shame.
H.B.M.C. wrote: Even if I forget all the nerfs we've been talking about, I still can't fathom the change to Rippers. I said this in the other thread but it's worth repeating: They went up in cost. Someone intentionally chose to make this unit cost more... and I just can't figure out why? What was the thought process behind this change? Was there a thought process behind this change? Was it done randomly cinematically? Was it done without thought? Did the person who wrote that entry genuinely thing that Rippers needed to become somehow less useful than the already sit-on-the-shelf-gathering-dust kinda useless they already were?
Explain it to me, please, someone. Anyone!
Well, they're one unit that is less likely to self-destruct out of the synapse range than they were in the old codex, so arguably they got better. (Not that they still would be good or actually needed a cost increase.)
MWHistorian wrote: From what I've seen.
People who have codex in hand say it sucks to High Heaven and will be a "friendly game only" army.
People who haven't seen the codex say "It can be great, just wait."
Hmmm......
Just what we need... more generalisations!
I have the codex in hand. It's not great, as mentioned above - it's lazy, much of it cut and paste, and embarrassments like the Harpy picture, where they couldn't be arsed to commission a new one, or the Trygon Tunnel, where they couldn't be arsed to make a rule that was playable. But... I"m looking forward to the next few games.
H.B.M.C. wrote: Even if I forget all the nerfs we've been talking about, I still can't fathom the change to Rippers. I said this in the other thread but it's worth repeating: They went up in cost. Someone intentionally chose to make this unit cost more... and I just can't figure out why? What was the thought process behind this change? Was there a thought process behind this change? Was it done randomly cinematically? Was it done without thought? Did the person who wrote that entry genuinely thing that Rippers needed to become somehow less useful than the already sit-on-the-shelf-gathering-dust kinda useless they already were?
Explain it to me, please, someone. Anyone!
They lost the auto-self eating rule? Maybe? Then they gained it again because of synapse? But at least its a 50/50? I dont know! I really, really dont know...
GW has a long history of producing codexes and armybooks that are wildly variable in their quality of rules. The recent high elf book has a ton of cool stuff and can support many different lists while the lizardmen book was boring as hell.
This has happened time and time again. The GW design studio is terribly inconsistent. Every codex is a crap shoot for the players. I cant remember when it hasnt been this way.
Some people is claiming that, perhaps, someone will find a "combo" or a brutally overpowered unit/gear that will "save" the army. Like the Heldrakes for Chaos or the inv save 2+ for Daemons "saved" what looked like awful, terrible, disgusting, lame, boring books. In the eyes of some people, at least, that would be enough.
As a not-competitive player I couldn´t care less. Not that I played my tyranids for a while, but I had hopes. The changes that concern me are easy to analize: I just need to look at my units.
-> tervigons, hive guard, tyranid prime, zoanthropes: nerfed. Some of them to the point of being completely useless.
-> tyranid warriors, genestealers, lictors: unchanged, still useless.
-> shrieks & raveners: not bad, but clearly not good enough.
-> Imgarl genestealers: nope.
-> termagaunts: the same. Nerfed by the nerf on my tervigon.
Conclusion? I need to change most of my army if I want to "compete". And most lists I can think of will not last three turns against an average player. Zero internal balance. Zero external balance. Total lack of play testing, variety, quality or options. Search for the broken unit and spam it, if there is such broken unit.
No, thanks. I don´t like the word "boycott". I prefer the expression "voting with my wallet". I am not getting new units and I am not getting the Codex of one of my favorite armies. If someone wants to play against my nids, I will use the 5th edition codex with some house rules to make the game fair.
I get it you know GW HATES NIDZ COOL, but being someone who never played in 5th and had to hear that they couldn't deal with vechile spam,
I picked up in 6th thinking cool i can come up with something. So i do a bit of research find a list i like retool it and then sit and wait almsot 2 years as i watch other BAD dex's become top tier.
Then nids rolls around and BAM back to back usless codex's?
If your goal here is to promote your product and make money, hell i wont even go into any other unit,
lets say your promoting just the Crone flyer to make money. OK why would i wana buy a single crone when for less money and in a different army i can down 1 per turn using a aegis IN EVERY OTHER ARMY???
Not even kidding but, does anyone know anyone on the GW marketing team? How the hell do you sell this crap?
madd_leeroy wrote: To me this just reads that you are disappointed that the new book isn't OP tyranids so that you can win some games.
You just need to play smarter.
Yet another reading comprehension fail post, how can you all of you just answer the long and rational arguments that are presented to you with such false "no, you" type simplifications and not feel childish?
The book is bland, badly balanced and dumbed down. It is like 5th edition book in a way that it has a few good units in the sea of bad ones, only it's worse because it removed possible tactics, playstyles and flavor. It is worse for casual play, for competitive play, for narrative play, whatever. Even at tiny things, example scything talons loosing rerolls - it makes nids worse power wise but first and foremost (for me) it make them loose the deadly aura, feeling that you can't escape if fex or sth starts hammering you. Not to menion the real crap like the loss of pods, well read the Swarmlord entry or Hive Mind fluff of how outwordly intelligent they are but now can hardly figure out how to deliver units to CC now other than making them walk the entire field under fire. Or making them appear weak, how does that suit all your narrative when the supposedly great threat turns out to be more target practice than a worthy opponent?
Oh don't forget to field a full genestealer army, some Pyrovores, maybe Warriors. You just need to play smarter.
SHUPPET wrote: To the guy in here calling us all powergamers for being less then impressed with the dex, yet has whiteknighted the new dex all the way through each new release of information, simply because it has given us a cheaper nidzilla monobuild (you know who you are) you should maybe take a look at how hypocritical and irrelevant your opinion comes across as.
Powergaming in its purest form is being happy with this dex and its points reduction of the MC kits with dwindling popularity (oh everyone has their Tervigons / Trygons / Hive Guard glued up? Let's nerf em and gives buffs to Tyrannofex / Mawloc / Tyrant Guard) , simply because you feel that it might give you a stronger competitive monobuild, and that this is a worthy trade to you for the loss of so much of the competitive options and strategies available in the last dex, combined with the addition of none.
To put into perspective, this new codex literally has less units in it than the last one!! We had 4 things taken out and only 3 put in. The 4 things we lost were units that either added many strategic options or had unique rules and flavor (mostly both), but the things we gained were a bad Harpy knockoff and a Hive Guard replacement. It's even been revealed that the units weren't taken out because of strategic gameplay, so without care for their own customers these units were removed to get rid of a point of revenue for Chapterhouse that was being created by GW's laziness when it came to making a model for the unit.
The worst is the people in here "b-b-b-b-b-but TAU DEX !! ELDAR DEX!!!!" . Yeah the comparison isn't even accurate anymore. We already know what this dex does. It does what the last one does, just worse. The whiners who complained about the Eldar dex had alot of untrod ground to work out, and by release a lot of open mouths have been fed and people had come around. This is almost the exact opposite of whats happened here, we know our dex back to front, and upon release the community has exploded with negative feedback, with people far smarter than the dex-hoppers and Eldar-skeptics saying that this release is terrible.
I'll be boycotting this release. It won't be hard to, it's barely even by choice. I don't need any of the new models and there is no way in hell I'm stupid enough to pay $80 for a book that has been rushed to publication, with a ruleset described in its current state by the playtesting team as "keeps getting walked over by every army", but still pushed into print by GW to move some packaged Spacedragon units.
This makes me sad. The only person who will miss out will be you by not playing a great faction.
i have not seen the new book, Yes it's only £20 in the UK which isn't a lot for me, so i will buy it even though i don't play nids. But there will be competitive options and various tactics that can be used to defeat any arms. Peole seem to forget at the heart of the gamneplay is rock, paper scissors. No if Rock get horrendously overpowered i will lose if i am scissors, but not if i take paper!
Uhhhh no? I didn't say that at all, I'm hardly jst about to chuck my nids in the bin... I'm just not going to SUPPORT the NEW RELEASE by buying the models and an overpriced codex that has just been released with stupid rules. I can pdf the rules and most the new models are mediocre gameplay wise at best. Somewhere down the track I might pick up an Exocrine, but I won't be letting my purchase contribute to the first week or even month sales statistics. I'm not going to put my money towards justifying their decision to release a terrible quality product, and whether or not you play nids you should probably agree with the sentiment.
SHUPPET wrote: To the guy in here calling us all powergamers for being less then impressed with the dex, yet has whiteknighted the new dex all the way through each new release of information, simply because it has given us a cheaper nidzilla monobuild (you know who you are) you should maybe take a look at how hypocritical and irrelevant your opinion comes across as.
Powergaming in its purest form is being happy with this dex and its points reduction of the MC kits with dwindling popularity (oh everyone has their Tervigons / Trygons / Hive Guard glued up? Let's nerf em and gives buffs to Tyrannofex / Mawloc / Tyrant Guard) , simply because you feel that it might give you a stronger competitive monobuild, and that this is a worthy trade to you for the loss of so much of the competitive options and strategies available in the last dex, combined with the addition of none.
To put into perspective, this new codex literally has less units in it than the last one!! We had 4 things taken out and only 3 put in. The 4 things we lost were units that either added many strategic options or had unique rules and flavor (mostly both), but the things we gained were a bad Harpy knockoff and a Hive Guard replacement. It's even been revealed that the units weren't taken out because of strategic gameplay, so without care for their own customers these units were removed to get rid of a point of revenue for Chapterhouse that was being created by GW's laziness when it came to making a model for the unit.
The worst is the people in here "b-b-b-b-b-but TAU DEX !! ELDAR DEX!!!!" . Yeah the comparison isn't even accurate anymore. We already know what this dex does. It does what the last one does, just worse. The whiners who complained about the Eldar dex had alot of untrod ground to work out, and by release a lot of open mouths have been fed and people had come around. This is almost the exact opposite of whats happened here, we know our dex back to front, and upon release the community has exploded with negative feedback, with people far smarter than the dex-hoppers and Eldar-skeptics saying that this release is terrible.
I'll be boycotting this release. It won't be hard to, it's barely even by choice. I don't need any of the new models and there is no way in hell I'm stupid enough to pay $80 for a book that has been rushed to publication, with a ruleset described in its current state by the playtesting team as "keeps getting walked over by every army", but still pushed into print by GW to move some packaged Spacedragon units.
This makes me sad. The only person who will miss out will be you by not playing a great faction.
i have not seen the new book, Yes it's only £20 in the UK which isn't a lot for me, so i will buy it even though i don't play nids. But there will be competitive options and various tactics that can be used to defeat any arms. Peole seem to forget at the heart of the gamneplay is rock, paper scissors. No if Rock get horrendously overpowered i will lose if i am scissors, but not if i take paper!
Uhhhh no? I didn't say that at all, I'm hardly jst about to chuck my nids in the bin... I'm just not going to SUPPORT the NEW RELEASE by buying the models and an overpriced codex that has just been released with stupid rules. I can pdf the rules and most the new models are mediocre gameplay wise at best. Somewhere down the track I might pick up an Exocrine, but I won't be letting my purchase contribute to the first week or even month sales statistics. I'm not going to put my money towards justifying their decision to release a terrible quality product, and whether or not you play nids you should probably agree with the sentiment.
Pretty much this. I worked alot of overtime through the holidays to allow myself to splurge on this release. I was fully prepared to buy the codex, 1-2 flyers, 1-2 exocrines, and random filler (termagants for the Tervs) today. But seeing how crappy the codex was put out, there is no chance in hell i will reward GW for such a lazy and poor performance. I can think of a hundred ways to make the Nid units "interesting" without being overpowering and we just get cut and paste + nerfs.
I will continue to play Nids, but I will wait until someone finds a usable Torrent and gives it to me and Ill just take some sculpting clay and make a gun mount for the top of my Tervigons to be Exocrines. Ill spend the money on something else.
I went in with my old dex, bought the new one, and stayed there to read over the new book/chat with the store owner. He plays DEfyi.
First thing we did was a direct side-by-side of rules. Synapse stayed the same. Instintive behavior is one of the major nerfs bar none. This trend of rules either not changing at all, or getting flat out worse continued for most things, with a few things here and there that became a bit better, such as fleet coming with AG.
Cost wise only a few things actually got cheaper. Gants cost a point less (woo..), but all of their upgrades cost more. And since tervigons no longer share sacs/AG, the effective cost of the unit went up. Hormagaunts went down a point, became -slightly- faster, but losing the re-rolls on scything talons reduced their combat effectiveness.
Warriors didnt change hardly at all. Only thing they "gained" is the ability to mix and match weapons. Speaking of warriors, Primes lost a wound, got more expensive, and all of their upgrades got more expensive. They are strictly inferior to a SM captain point-for-point.
Tyrants went down a bit, but their overall utility went down because the Tyranid powers are really lacklustre. CSM Tzeench lacklustre. So basically they are slightly less expensive than they were before, but are largely inferior to what they where. Ans seeing as how not everyone spammed Flying tyrants, those of us who used walking ones with a 2+ save have lost a major tactic in our army. Note that Ymgarl factor only functions in CC, for those who said this could work.
Fexes went down in cost, but they are still strictly inferior to MC in other codexes. Compared to riptides they are less durable, have worse shooting, have a chance to attack their own unit (about a 40% chance all said and done), No personal access to FNP, no Inv save. Then compared to wraithlords (Lord, not Knight), they are ENTIRELY inferior. Worse in -every- respect possible aside from armor save. Then there is that other MC everyone forgets about, the Dreadknight. Worse once again in every way.
Mawlocs got 'better' because they ignore cover with terror from the deep. But now, unless they are hitting a unit that is ENTIRELY under the large blast, they will mishap every time. This is because the thing is on an oval base, which isa 1/3 larger than a large blast. so went down in points, and a sideways shift play wise.
Tervigons went up in cost, became more expensive to field as troops, synaptic backlash effects a larger range (max 30", due to size of base), had its upgrades become more expensive, and lost psychic utility, due to less and inferior powers. Nerf. Not unexpected, just not to this degree.
These are just the things that stuck out in my mind from yesterday. I've already come to an agreement with all but 2 of my gaming group to allow me to continue using the 5e rules, the other two are just looking forward to having an easier go at beating me. In the end, all this has done is motivated me to finally drag my old farsight army out of the closet, which has been sitting there since the 5e tyranid codex dropped. I truely hope that SOMEONE finds that one rule and relays to everyone "HEY WE MISSED THIS AWESOME THING EVERYONE!! DO THIS!!!!"
My suggestion is for everyone to follow what I did. Buy the codex, read it in store, and if you don't like it then return it. If it's a FLGS make sure to have him relay back to their GW rep about how people are returning not just models, but entire codex, due to poorly written rules. If it's a GW store, and you are ok with doing such a thing, make as much of a vocal stink about how bad you the book is.
madd_leeroy wrote: To me this just reads that you are disappointed that the new book isn't OP tyranids so that you can win some games.
You just need to play smarter.
To me this reads as someone so out of touch with reality that they think ignorant, snide remarks are a good idea to make towards people who are well informed and practiced in the area of his ignorance.
Do you think the Tyranid release warrants a "No thanks, I'll take my money elsewhere" kind of approach?
Please do! I despise Tyranids, and honestly couldn't be happier that the new codex is apparently putting people off. I sincerely hope that it becomes the least played army, possibly being replaced in the GW production priority list by Sisters of Battle.
It's an atrocious army, I don't generally enjoy playing games against it, and I'm looking forward to a few years of not having to deal with bugs.
Just told my wife her Doom, Spores and most importantly her beloved Parasite are gone from the book and that her hiveguard got nerfed.
Her reaction was a long sigh followed by 'so, tell me more about Hordes'...
It's a shame, it really is.
I wonder what will befall my orks, and whether it's just better to shelve the lot, until we get a swing of the pendulum in editions to come, back to smooth play and some attempted balance between the books. If GW wants to ask me to pay thousands for their armies, the least they can do is provide a system wherein there is no penalty to which army I choose in terms of post sale-service and enjoyment of the game.
I also wonder just how difficult it will be to take my orks, dark eldar and my wife's tyranids and make them fit for mantic's Warpath or some other company's free rules.
Got a codex yesterday and browsed through it. I expected that the points reductions, which had been described as "okay" by many, would allow me to finally run some sort of swarm army.
They don't. The Tyrant's base price reduction isn't 30 points, or 20 points, or even 10 points.
It's 5.
Merry Christamas from GW, I get an extra gaunt.
Do you think the Tyranid release warrants a "No thanks, I'll take my money elsewhere" kind of approach?
Please do! I despise Tyranids, and honestly couldn't be happier that the new codex is apparently putting people off. I sincerely hope that it becomes the least played army, possibly being replaced in the GW production priority list by Sisters of Battle.
It's an atrocious army, I don't generally enjoy playing games against it, and I'm looking forward to a few years of not having to deal with bugs.
^ Definition of a troll post. I don't play Nids [also a Sisters players] but can sympathise with fellow gamers when they get the shaft from GW. Less diversity of armies is a bad thing. Try to think how you would feel if your Sisters got a lazily put together and bland codex. Actually, they did, as did Chaos Marines [my other army], which is why I feel for Nid players.
Jeez this is disappointing, I know every new codex shouldn't be overpowered, but the 5th edition nid codex wasn't very good to start with, and seems to have gotten NERFED..
It's classic for gw to nerf old standbye units, not adding any powerful units seems pretty weird for them.
I don't even play nids, but I think they are a great element to the universe, and would have liked to see them more in games. Ohwell
A combination of units attacking themselves and doing other stupid gak outside of Synapse, and our main Synapse units getting nerfed (Tervigon + Zoanthrope).
H.B.M.C. wrote: Even if I forget all the nerfs we've been talking about, I still can't fathom the change to Rippers. I said this in the other thread but it's worth repeating: They went up in cost. Someone intentionally chose to make this unit cost more... and I just can't figure out why? What was the thought process behind this change? Was there a thought process behind this change? Was it done randomly cinematically? Was it done without thought? Did the person who wrote that entry genuinely thing that Rippers needed to become somehow less useful than the already sit-on-the-shelf-gathering-dust kinda useless they already were?
Explain it to me, please, someone. Anyone!
It lets new players build up their points values quicker with "free" models!
The instictive behaviour now comes with 3 tables.
Lurk on the result:
1-3 must fall back
4-5 seek cover there not slowed by dificult terrain, must take dangerous as normal, can shoot but if they do so only models inside terrain shoot, unit cannot charge
6- follows the rules of the roll above and gain stealth
Hunt
1-3 unit goes to the ground, if the unit contain 1 or more models with fearless treat the result as prowl
4-5 prowl cannot run and must instead shoot at the closest enemy unit within range and in line of sightof at least one model of the tyranid unit. if you cant see nothing you do nothing on the shooting phase, the unit cannot charge
6- follow the rules of prowl and gains preferred enemy
Feed
1-3 the unit suffer number of hits equal to the unit size. the S is used withthe majority represented on the unit (if drawn use the highest with Ap- wounds taken allow armour but not cover, after resolving causalties the unit do nothing else on that turn, units of single model treat this result as devour.
4-5devour in the shooting phase cannot run or shoot, if he can charge must do so againt the closest enemy visible possible if it cant declare charge, cant do nothing else on the assault phase
6- kill follow all rules of devour and gains rage rule.
Half the table is a bad thing already and you get stuck everywhere if they fail their ld tests.
Imagine a carnifex brood of 3 failling the ld test and got 50% chances to get mad and start killing itself eating 3x S9 wounds...
I don't like the new IB tables very much, but one minor bright spot is that it makes Gaunts slightly better at camping objectives without a Synapse babysitter.
None of the IB results force a unit to move in a particular direction. Some can force you to fall back or to charge, but none govern your movement like the 5th edition Lurk did.
So now Gaunts that fail an IB test have a 50/50 chance of staying where you want them to (whereas previously they would have had to move towards the nearest area terrain, meaning they would abandon any objective that was not located in area terrain).
Do you think the Tyranid release warrants a "No thanks, I'll take my money elsewhere" kind of approach?
Please do! I despise Tyranids, and honestly couldn't be happier that the new codex is apparently putting people off. I sincerely hope that it becomes the least played army, possibly being replaced in the GW production priority list by Sisters of Battle.
It's an atrocious army, I don't generally enjoy playing games against it, and I'm looking forward to a few years of not having to deal with bugs.
Maybe in the future, if you try REALLY hard, you won't come across as a complete jacka$$. I certainly hope so.
Do you think the Tyranid release warrants a "No thanks, I'll take my money elsewhere" kind of approach?
Please do! I despise Tyranids, and honestly couldn't be happier that the new codex is apparently putting people off. I sincerely hope that it becomes the least played army, possibly being replaced in the GW production priority list by Sisters of Battle.
It's an atrocious army, I don't generally enjoy playing games against it, and I'm looking forward to a few years of not having to deal with bugs.
Maybe in the future, if you try REALLY hard, you won't come across as a complete jacka$$. I certainly hope so.
just ignore him, getting to the point of despising 1 faction of a game shows he really have no life or more urgent things to get concerned on, the bugs got the best of him and still beat him, so go hate your neightbour with nids all you want
My nids will be sitting this codex out, much the same as the last codex once the new BRB hit. It's not that the new book is unplayable, it's that I can't play it the way I want to.
Note to GW: The money I would have spent on new nids is instead going into a Skorne army. You have let this customer down, and will not be getting his money.
kronk wrote: I had a buddy in Texas that could either run a Swarming nid list, with tons of gaunts (or whatever) or a nid zilla list with lots of big baddies.
You never knew what you'd face, and those were always tough games!
I hope nids don't get completely kicked in the jimmies with this release for his sake.
Edit: He's a decent painter, too
Other than the painting part (and Texas ), that describes my lists, when they were fielded. I usually brought several and let my opponent pick whichever they wanted to fight. Because most anything was viable at the time, but I never wanted to field a hard counter to a pick-up list. Obviously that last line is a hilarious joke on Tyranids now, if taken out of context/time period.
kronk wrote: I had a buddy in Texas that could either run a Swarming nid list, with tons of gaunts (or whatever) or a nid zilla list with lots of big baddies.
You never knew what you'd face, and those were always tough games!
I hope nids don't get completely kicked in the jimmies with this release for his sake.
nids gained:
+4 new big monsters across 2 kits.
+some new recuts of old sculpts
but lost
- instinctive behaviour is now more punishing and can aparently kill your own units?
- less 2+ armor
- more points for some stuff with no real improvment
- tervigon nerfing like no tomorrow
- swarmlord nerfing
- no pods
- no doom
- no book psychic powers
- no allies (wich makes sense, sort of, and was the status quo before anyway)
if the above is true, and im not missing anything critical, - like the exocrine/hausprex thing ising totally BAMF, (i assume its a T6/6W/3+ ?) then i really really feel for bug players. i was even considering finally getting my own nids on track, as ive picked up some random kits here and there.. but this dex looks like a pretty solid downgrade. wich is dissapointing considering that the last few dex releases have all been fairly strong, (tau/eldar/crons/sm/chaos/daemons) and when i say strong, i mean a competetive list, thats got good odds on wining is possible. seems to me the only way to do bugs now is the same old tervigons/gaunts/flyrant/dakkafex combos.
youre missing the things that were gone that give tyranids tactical flexibility on aproax an oponent like mycetic spores and some biomorphs are just worst, like scything talons... and new bugs got at most 5 wounds, not 6s... and trygon decreased by 1A which is increased by 2 pairs of scything talons which give him no further rule (previous trygon was better with 6A and re-rolls to hit)
And here I was sad at the new Sisters "book" (at least Nids get a physical product and plastic models to make a giant sucking sound on the table, amirite?) with bad units getting much worse, stuff getting deleted, etc.
I think we found a codex even more boring that Sisters... I have wanted to play "Midzilla" since I started the hobby. I love Warriors, Genestealers, Lichtors, etc. This book still doesn't give me that, so GW still won't get money from me for Nids.
Also, I chuckled at Pyrovores still vying for one of the worst units in the game. Up there with SoB Repentia and DE Mandrakes.
TheKbob wrote: And here I was sad at the new Sisters "book" (at least Nids get a physical product and plastic models to make a giant sucking sound on the table, amirite?) with bad units getting much worse, stuff getting deleted, etc.
I think we found a codex even more boring that Sisters... I have wanted to play "Midzilla" since I started the hobby. I love Warriors, Genestealers, Lichtors, etc. This book still doesn't give me that, so GW still won't get money from me for Nids.
Also, I chuckled at Pyrovores still vying for one of the worst units in the game. Up there with SoB Repentia and DE Mandrakes.
Repentia used to be more useful, that is until they took even their basic Feel no Pain away. That made even me put them on the shelf.
One of the big things I haven't seen talked about is the fact Nids got a boost to their assault prowess (well for some units at least) in Flesh Hooks and Spine Banks. I rather like that because it makes a fair number of units better at assaulting into cover (a long standing issue for the Nids).
Man am i exited to go to my local gw (that just opened up to!) and ask the new store owner about the codex and his thoughts on it. after hereing hor great and wonderfull and cool it is and how much i buy it, ill pretend i know nothing and ask for help to build a list. ill say l like the pyrovores models, and ask how they fair on the battle field.
While doing this i want to have a buddy secretly video taping the whole thing so later when i feel sad i can watch this and laugh like theres no tomorrow.
flesh hooks and spine banks still only apply to the same old bugs on the previous book, aka lictors and carnifexes (which I2 is almost the same as I1 in the carnifex) ohh nvm 1+ nid do it... paying 5pts on an already 40pts more expensive model, the tyranid Prime...
Roci wrote: I think there are some people like me. I don't think the book will down right suck. I think they will be middle of the roadish.. have some unique quirky stuff but they are not going to be knocking anyone off the top of the hill.
I cancelled my preorder only because I only ever had enough bugs to field the "current" standard build with a few changes here an there. The play style will shift quite a lot and with certain units being removed and ones like the terv not really being viable, I would have to spend a lot of money to rebuild the army. I'm not buying a whole new armies worth of models to stay middle of the road. If I could have bought a few models.. the codex and made a run of it.. I likely would have kept it.. I would be fine banishing the nids to the basement to only be played in home rule games.
tihs is it right here... "buy more models"...if you expected something else then...you just haven't been paying attention
I love a good game...but this as long as Games Workshop is involved...it'll never be about the Game....
Except this release does nothing to make you want to buy more models, and especially not the new models that are supposed to be GW's money grab. The flyers are bad, the exocrine is OK, but no one is going to need more than one, the Haruspex is average at best, they nerfed Hive Guard - even after creating a new kit for them, they MIGHT sell some of the new Warrior kits, just so some people can make the Prime, but I wouldn't expect it as we all have plenty of Warriors already that we can (or already have) modify to a Prime. The ONLY model that some of us Nid players may not have enough of already is the Venomthrope as it's the ONLY unit that got any significant upgrade. They didn't even increase the abilities of the Pyrovore, Raveners, or Lictors, which I imagine they have a serious inventory of collecting dust in their warehouses. No, even as a money grab, this 'Dex is an epic fail
Exactly. Even as a cash grab to sell more or new models, it fails because the new ones are so mediocre in rules. Some of the point adjustments seem to either defy logic, or are too little to salvage weak units, like the much maligned Pyrovore which has been useless ever since it was made (hardly a good way to sell the model).
The stuff that didn't need nerfing got nerfed anyway or got point increases (which is a nerf of sorts), while the weak points still remain unaddressed. It really seems the GW design team at times is lost in its own echo chamber, and the bits of feedback that do get through seem to result in overreactions like the massive Tervigon nerf.
Unfortunately, I fear the only thing poor sales would be interpreted as would be "Players just don't want to play Tyranids at all so it's a waste of time to devote more effort to Tyranids in the future" rather than GW designers messed up with poor design that drove down sales.
Enceladus wrote: Fortunately the hobby isn't all about winning for me. Forging a narrative and having some giggles with fluff are far more important in most of my games. I have an 'Alien' themed Tyranid army with appropriate conversions throughout, and I'll be taking Acid Blood with as many units as I possibly can!! :-D
Wouldn't it be much more fun to forge a narrative with a book that is somewhat competitive? I have played fluffy lists, mostly because I felt the actual competitive build we had previously was vapid and uninspired. I just hate put my army on the table knowing that, unless I deploy and play perfectly, I have almost no chance to win. even for those that love just playing fun and fluffy, the game is better when armies are balanced against each other
Happily downloaded the codex for free, shant be buying more nids after reading the book, deleted codex and am putting nids back on shelf, try before you buy done and wasted no money.
ninjafiredragon wrote: Man, am I excited to go to my local gw (that just opened up too!) and ask the new store owner about the codex and his thoughts on it. After hearing how great and wonderful and cool it is and how much I should buy it, I'll pretend I know nothing and ask for help with building a list. I'll say l like the pyrovore models, and ask how they fair on the battle field.
While doing this I want to have a buddy secretly video taping the whole thing so later when I feel sad I can watch this and laugh like there's no tomorrow.
This.
P.S. There is no tomorrow, at least for 'nids.
Wouldn't it be much more fun to forge a narrative with a book that is somewhat competitive?
The narratives are already forged. Every White Dwarf batrep shows Nids getting beaten, its much easier to do with a crap codex. Even the newest one gave Nids 200 points over Tau and they still almost got wiped.
I keep looking through the codex and finding it worse and worse.
The Zoanthropes and many other units have Very Bulky / Bulky in their rulesets despite 'nids having no transports of any kind anymore.
What a sloppy mess of a codice.
FastusMustachius wrote: I keep looking through the codex and finding in worse and worse.
The Zoanthropes and many other units have Very Bulky / Bulky in their rulesets despite 'nids having no transports of any kind anymore.
What a sloppy mess of a codice.
In all fairness, if the R'Varna is anything to go by, there could be cases in future where bulky makes a difference.
FastusMustachius wrote: I keep looking through the codex and finding it worse and worse.
The Zoanthropes and many other units have Very Bulky / Bulky in their rulesets despite 'nids having no transports of any kind anymore.
What a sloppy mess of a codice.
It's called being "future-proof".
Imagine they would bring back some kind of transport, then needing to FAQ all that "bulkiness" back into the Codex for all units.
FastusMustachius wrote: I keep looking through the codex and finding it worse and worse.
The Zoanthropes and many other units have Very Bulky / Bulky in their rulesets despite 'nids having no transports of any kind anymore.
What a sloppy mess of a codice.
It's called being "future-proof".
Imagine they would bring back some kind of transport, then needing to FAQ all that "bulkiness" back into the Codex for all units.
how about entering bunkers or imperial strongpoints?
nids gained:
+4 new big monsters across 2 kits. +some new recuts of old sculpts
but lost
- instinctive behaviour is now more punishing and can aparently kill your own units?
- less 2+ armor
- more points for some stuff with no real improvment
- tervigon nerfing like no tomorrow
- swarmlord nerfing
- no pods
- no doom
- no book psychic powers
- no allies (wich makes sense, sort of, and was the status quo before anyway)
if the above is true, and im not missing anything critical, - like the exocrine/hausprex thing ising totally BAMF, (i assume its a T6/6W/3+ ?) then i really really feel for bug players. i was even considering finally getting my own nids on track, as ive picked up some random kits here and there.. but this dex looks like a pretty solid downgrade. wich is dissapointing considering that the last few dex releases have all been fairly strong, (tau/eldar/crons/sm/chaos/daemons) and when i say strong, i mean a competetive list, thats got good odds on wining is possible. seems to me the only way to do bugs now is the same old tervigons/gaunts/flyrant/dakkafex combos.
unless i am indeed missing something?
We actually only got 3 new units across 4 kits. The Haruspex/Exorcine is new, but we already had the Harpy in the Harpy/Crone kit.
Otherwise, no, you're really not missing anything. The Exorcine is really the only good option of the new monsters. The Haruspex could have been decent, but overall isn't great for its points.
The crone though. Oh man the crone. So bipolar and bad.
FastusMustachius wrote: I keep looking through the codex and finding it worse and worse.
The Zoanthropes and many other units have Very Bulky / Bulky in their rulesets despite 'nids having no transports of any kind anymore.
What a sloppy mess of a codice.
Nids have two transports, they're just Apoc-only. Harridan can carry Gargoyles and the Hierophant can take 20 infantry as an assault transport (with an upgrade).
Been looking forward to this codex for months. Nids were my first serious army and I've super loved them since I started playing.
That said, I am so crestfallen after this release (read the whole codex last night after work), my nids are getting shelved for good. I don't really see any point in playing them.
They went from being one of the most powerful and versatile psyker armies to being literally the least versatile of all the 6e armies. Every bad unit from fifth is still bad (or worse: see Pyro, Gaunts, Prime, SL). The points increases are insane, and are one of the only changes to the army... they might as well have called this the Tyranid 5e codex: hardback edition!
And I think there's a HUGE nerf that people are missing... Tyranids have cc weapon profiles now. The most unique and cool mechanic of the army is gone. Not only are scything talons total gak, but weapon profiles can't be combined (or used with Smash/AP2 for MCs). No more stealers with rending, poison and reroll 1s.
Total bs. My wallet's happy, though. GW won't be getting any more of my money.
Tzadakim wrote: No more stealers with rending, poison and reroll 1s.
OTOH Tzadakim, where stealers lost the reroll 1's, they've actually gained access to +1 A (rending, poison) which is actually better. That +1 attack (2/3 chances) is better than rerolling 1's (1/6 chances)
Still they didn't improve much at all because the largest problems is that they still haven't gotten a way to mitigate penalty when charging through terrain....
FastusMustachius wrote: I keep looking through the codex and finding it worse and worse.
The Zoanthropes and many other units have Very Bulky / Bulky in their rulesets despite 'nids having no transports of any kind anymore.
What a sloppy mess of a codice.
The new Red Terror has a ability that doesn't work againt very bulky models so there's that
Tzadakim wrote: No more stealers with rending, poison and reroll 1s.
OTOH Tzadakim, where stealers lost the reroll 1's, they've actually gained access to +1 A (rending, poison) which is actually better. That +1 attack (2/3 chances) is better than rerolling 1's (1/6 chances)
Still they didn't improve much at all because the largest problems is that they still haven't gotten a way to mitigate penalty when charging through terrain....
If they where free that benice but you pay 4 points for scything Talons making themm even more expensife thenn before.
Tzadakim wrote: No more stealers with rending, poison and reroll 1s.
OTOH Tzadakim, where stealers lost the reroll 1's, they've actually gained access to +1 A (rending, poison) which is actually better. That +1 attack (2/3 chances) is better than rerolling 1's (1/6 chances)
Still they didn't improve much at all because the largest problems is that they still haven't gotten a way to mitigate penalty when charging through terrain....
...for an increase of one point per model, yes. So they gain one attack, lose their re-rolls (which, at 2 attacks actually comes to 1/3, not 1/6), Broodlords get a useless psyker power, and more expensive upgrades...? This is a straight nerf to an already underwhelming unit.
My main point was you can't stack weapon profiles anymore, which was the massively unique part of this assault-based army.
FastusMustachius wrote: Got a codex yesterday and browsed through it. I expected that the points reductions, which had been described as "okay" by many, would allow me to finally run some sort of swarm army.
They don't. The Tyrant's base price reduction isn't 30 points, or 20 points, or even 10 points.
It's 5.
Merry Christamas from GW, I get an extra gaunt.
Most builds went down as much as 30-40 points. That is becuase wings and bioweapons all when down in cost for the most part. On the whole, barring the lose of the ymgral squad, my standard 2000 point single FOC list dropped around 300pts. I only lost 6 ymgrals, which adds an other 138 points. So yeah there was a point drop of a good bit.
FastusMustachius wrote: Got a codex yesterday and browsed through it. I expected that the points reductions, which had been described as "okay" by many, would allow me to finally run some sort of swarm army.
They don't. The Tyrant's base price reduction isn't 30 points, or 20 points, or even 10 points.
It's 5.
Merry Christamas from GW, I get an extra gaunt.
Most builds went down as much as 30-40 points. That is becuase wings and bioweapons all when down in cost for the most part. On the whole, barring the lose of the ymgral squad, my standard 2000 point single FOC list dropped around 300pts. I only lost 6 ymgrals, which adds an other 138 points. So yeah there was a point drop of a good bit.
Twin Linked Devourers are still 15pts each I thought? The main drop in points for the HT was wings dropping 25 points.
I'm curious what your previous list was that you dropped 300 points. Did you field a bunch of Tyranofexes?
Tzadakim wrote: No more stealers with rending, poison and reroll 1s.
OTOH Tzadakim, where stealers lost the reroll 1's, they've actually gained access to +1 A (rending, poison) which is actually better. That +1 attack (2/3 chances) is better than rerolling 1's (1/6 chances)
Most units this affected actually lost attacks on their profile alongside this change. The overall result is that you either:
a) end up with a useless weapon option if you're not fitting entirely for melee (typically Warriors)
b) pay over the odds for the bonus attack ('stealers)
Tzadakim wrote: No more stealers with rending, poison and reroll 1s.
OTOH Tzadakim, where stealers lost the reroll 1's, they've actually gained access to +1 A (rending, poison) which is actually better. That +1 attack (2/3 chances) is better than rerolling 1's (1/6 chances)
Most units this affected actually lost attacks on their profile alongside this change. The overall result is that you either:
a) end up with a useless weapon option if you're not fitting entirely for melee (typically Warriors)
b) pay over the odds for the bonus attack ('stealers)
Not to mention the math shows that rerolls > +1 attack against everything but stationary vehicles.
FastusMustachius wrote: Got a codex yesterday and browsed through it. I expected that the points reductions, which had been described as "okay" by many, would allow me to finally run some sort of swarm army.
They don't. The Tyrant's base price reduction isn't 30 points, or 20 points, or even 10 points.
It's 5.
Merry Christamas from GW, I get an extra gaunt.
Most builds went down as much as 30-40 points. That is becuase wings and bioweapons all when down in cost for the most part. On the whole, barring the lose of the ymgral squad, my standard 2000 point single FOC list dropped around 300pts. I only lost 6 ymgrals, which adds an other 138 points. So yeah there was a point drop of a good bit.
Our army list really went down in points.
WE gained lots of points from the flyrants, and the devourers. WE gained lots of points from the 2 dakkafexes.
And we lost a load more £$$%%@@ points from the pods, the ymgarls and the doom that just got fr££%kin vaporised!
I stopped playing WH40k back when v5 nid codex came out so I was waiting a lot to get back into all that. Imo the codex is even worst than v5.
I don't understand some of GW's choice with the units : what's with all the unecessary cautiousness ? Why T5 W5 4+ flyings ? T6 W4 3+ was judged too op ? Why so many tervigon nerfs ? Tyranid Prime ? There are no logic behind those choice, at least no logic that I can grasp and I would like some enlightment on all that.
Aside from that, I actually think there might be some possible playable list, with the few units that might be okayish : zoanthropes (3++ saves makes them okay I guess), exocrine, flyrant, venomthropes and some carnifexes (and maybe gargoyles). I see a lot of people saying nids is a CC army at hearth, but in my opinion it's long gone. Since V5 nids is more of a mid range shooty army, even if that sounds ridiculous.
By the way BlaxicanX, you cracked me up with your five stage theory. Exalted !
FastusMustachius wrote: Got a codex yesterday and browsed through it. I expected that the points reductions, which had been described as "okay" by many, would allow me to finally run some sort of swarm army.
They don't. The Tyrant's base price reduction isn't 30 points, or 20 points, or even 10 points.
It's 5.
Merry Christamas from GW, I get an extra gaunt.
Most builds went down as much as 30-40 points. That is becuase wings and bioweapons all when down in cost for the most part. On the whole, barring the lose of the ymgral squad, my standard 2000 point single FOC list dropped around 300pts. I only lost 6 ymgrals, which adds an other 138 points. So yeah there was a point drop of a good bit.
Our army list really went down in points.
WE gained lots of points from the flyrants, and the devourers. WE gained lots of points from the 2 dakkafexes.
And we lost a load more £$$%%@@ points from the pods, the ymgarls and the doom that just got fr££%kin vaporised!
True story. I'm not shelving my Nids, or anything stupid like that. I'll adapt. But this codex is lazy ( I have mine now and have read it) and limited. I have 15 models, all conversions, that I can no longer use, 13 of which where in my last army. Sad, sad day for converters. This just feels limited. HQ, FA, and Elites are full of units that are a clear "no" and one unit each that is good. Troops and Heavy are the only slots that merit choices. Heavy because there are actually multiple units worth taking, Troops because there are no real standout units. Tervigons maybe, but the huge debuff they took makes them seem unattractive. Still, I have to look at them in a vacuum. I know it's worse than before, that doesn't mean it's bad. So, take Flyrants, Gargoyles and Venomthropes. Pick your poison with troops, and then splurge on our excellent Heavy Support choices. Really, they are the new Elites.
Tzadakim wrote: No more stealers with rending, poison and reroll 1s.
OTOH Tzadakim, where stealers lost the reroll 1's, they've actually gained access to +1 A (rending, poison) which is actually better. That +1 attack (2/3 chances) is better than rerolling 1's (1/6 chances)
Most units this affected actually lost attacks on their profile alongside this change. The overall result is that you either:
a) end up with a useless weapon option if you're not fitting entirely for melee (typically Warriors)
b) pay over the odds for the bonus attack ('stealers)
Not to mention the math shows that rerolls > +1 attack against everything but stationary vehicles.
Really? Whoops. I must have done my math wrong. Sorry!!!
Tzadakim wrote: No more stealers with rending, poison and reroll 1s.
OTOH Tzadakim, where stealers lost the reroll 1's, they've actually gained access to +1 A (rending, poison) which is actually better. That +1 attack (2/3 chances) is better than rerolling 1's (1/6 chances)
Most units this affected actually lost attacks on their profile alongside this change. The overall result is that you either:
a) end up with a useless weapon option if you're not fitting entirely for melee (typically Warriors)
b) pay over the odds for the bonus attack ('stealers)
Not to mention the math shows that rerolls > +1 attack against everything but stationary vehicles.
Really? Whoops. I must have done my math wrong. Sorry!!!
ack, no, my fault. I was thinking of trygons who got to reroll all misses instead of just ones. Not sure of the math for Stealers, but Horms definitely lost out since they can only have one set.
2A at WS6 with old ST:
2/3 chance to hit in majority of circumstances
1/6 chance to miss
1/6 chance to re-roll (with another 2/3 chance to hit)
Comes out to 7/9 probability for each attack.
Which means it's (approx) a 77.7% chance to hit with one attack, and 60.5% chance to hit with both.
3A at WS6 with new ST:
2/3 chance to hit
1/3 chance to miss
This comes to a 66.6% chance to hit with one, 44% chance to hit with two, and only a 22.2% chance to hit with all three.
With the increased point cost (1pt/model, if you take all the upgrades. Because of course. Or 2 points more if you only take ST), and the seemingly reduced accuracy... nerf.
Oh, and the numbers only get worse as the target's WS goes up. Yay!
DarthSpader wrote: if the above is true, and im not missing anything critical, - like the exocrine/hausprex thing ising totally BAMF, (i assume its a T6/6W/3+ ?)
Well the Haruspex gets loads of extra attacks when it kills things. But only on the charge. Normally it gets just 3 attacks. At WS3. It'll get swarmed by a big unit and just spend the rest of the game killing Guardsmen/Boys and things like that. Not Gaunts though. Gaunts will run away or eat themselves first.
Tzadakim wrote: Been looking forward to this codex for months. Nids were my first serious army and I've super loved them since I started playing.
That said, I am so crestfallen after this release (read the whole codex last night after work), my nids are getting shelved for good. I don't really see any point in playing them.
You don't see a point in, you know... having fun? By just playing? Oh wait- I almost forgot: The only fun part about Warhammer 40k is winning games!
Sick of all this talk of "shelving my army" and so forth. Learn to adapt a bit, build some fun lists, and enjoy the game for what it is.
"Don't you want to have fun" is such an inane counter-argument. Of course everyone wants to have fun, but that "argument" doesn't actually counter the point that the book is terrible. The desire to have fun won't change how good a book is.
HiveFleetCollossus wrote: Sick of all this talk of "shelving my army" and so forth. Learn to adapt a bit, build some fun lists, and enjoy the game for what it is.
Then dont read the forum, particularly a thread named "..boycott a terrible product>"
Take all the money you would have spent on Tyranids and buy the starter set for another miniature game. There are many out there that take game balance very seriously.
If you still feel like playing Tyranids after a month or two on another game system, then buy it all then. At least by that point, you'll be able to look at it all objectively, and there will be more information about how good they are.
Could it be that this codex has been intentionally rendered bland in order to produce several colorful and 'winning' codex supplements for hive fleets?
You need the codex plus the codex supplement to run one of those armies, whereas just running the main codex army just requires the main book. If the 'codex: hive fleet toadballs' is really full of bells and whistles, then all the nid players will rush to buy it and the codex... Double yer money! Perhaps that's where all the booty's hidden! In the specialized codex supplements following.
FastusMustachius wrote: Got a codex yesterday and browsed through it. I expected that the points reductions, which had been described as "okay" by many, would allow me to finally run some sort of swarm army.
They don't. The Tyrant's base price reduction isn't 30 points, or 20 points, or even 10 points.
It's 5.
Merry Christamas from GW, I get an extra gaunt.
Most builds went down as much as 30-40 points. That is becuase wings and bioweapons all when down in cost for the most part. On the whole, barring the lose of the ymgral squad, my standard 2000 point single FOC list dropped around 300pts. I only lost 6 ymgrals, which adds an other 138 points. So yeah there was a point drop of a good bit.
Twin Linked Devourers are still 15pts each I thought? The main drop in points for the HT was wings dropping 25 points.
I'm curious what your previous list was that you dropped 300 points. Did you field a bunch of Tyranofexes?
I still run most of a 3e/4e built army in local tourneys as it happens to be the only fully painted one I have. Locally the list keeps me squarely middle of the pack on the performance curve. Only Unit that did not drop in cost as the Genestealers which stayed at 300 points. The Broodlord did not actually go up in price, just rolled the stealer cost in with the upgrade cost. Here is the list as it is now after losing the ymgral. And I did miss the math alittle, the 300 (319 total) include the 138 for the ymgral.
Not a killer list, but with the Biomancy , TK and TP, I usually had 5++ save on charging hormies, Iron arm on a Zoanthrope, Broodlord normally got something useful, Flyrant had Smite + something normally Endurance or Iron Arm. Ran Prime as warlord and midfeild synapse anchor attached to Tyrant Guard.
Adding the SK Carnie back in to the list, and and debating what to add for the last 174 points.
Well, the sky is not falling, but the biggest complaint really is that many of the units that had problems in the last book, still have problems (raveners, stealers, warriors, etc.).
A few things did drop in points, so that is good, but somethings, when you finish building them as before are the same or more.
I think there will be some builds we can make from it, but my friend (who also plays eldar and marines) summed it up the best...
"With the marine/eldar books, the task was picking which cool option or exciting build I wanted to try (what chapter, what kind of list, etc.)....in the nid book, the task if finding one I would want to..."
Lobukia wrote: Flyrant, biovore, fex lists with some fast flyers will be winning/placing in tourneys in a few months. Then so many can feel silly.
You fail to understand the problem. Nids can and will win, but we went from one Monobuild to a different monobuild. There is even more limited variety now.
Lobukia wrote: Flyrant, biovore, fex lists with some fast flyers will be winning/placing in tourneys in a few months. Then so many can feel silly.
You fail to understand the problem. Nids can and will win, but we went from one Monobuild to a different monobuild. There is even more limited variety now.
What codex has more than 2 truly viable tourney builds?
Lobukia wrote: Flyrant, biovore, fex lists with some fast flyers will be winning/placing in tourneys in a few months. Then so many can feel silly.
You fail to understand the problem. Nids can and will win, but we went from one Monobuild to a different monobuild. There is even more limited variety now.
What codex has more than 2 truly viable tourney builds?
Lobukia wrote: Flyrant, biovore, fex lists with some fast flyers will be winning/placing in tourneys in a few months. Then so many can feel silly.
You fail to understand the problem. Nids can and will win, but we went from one Monobuild to a different monobuild. There is even more limited variety now.
Pretty much this. We've lost options coming into the new codex, I feel like this is the thousandth time I've said it. Nobody will feel silly when Tyranids start winning (which I doubt but whatever). We could take home 1st 2nd and 3rd each tourney and it wouldn't change how crap this codex is in comparison to the last one.
Unlike powergamers, the Nid customerbase is one who deliberately picked an underpowered army, the competitive strength of this armies monobuild is not relevant of us. We merely want the tools we had to play with in the last codex to make a return.
Lobukia wrote: Flyrant, biovore, fex lists with some fast flyers will be winning/placing in tourneys in a few months. Then so many can feel silly.
You fail to understand the problem. Nids can and will win, but we went from one Monobuild to a different monobuild. There is even more limited variety now.
What codex has more than 2 truly viable tourney builds?
Tournament, most of them.
Really?
Chaos Marines, maybe two
Daemons, again maybe two
DA.... moving on
Eldar, 2
DE, as an ally, 1
GK, with inquisition out, it's not even an ally
Crons, maybe maybe two
Tau, 2
SM, what besides bikes?
BA...
SW great ally
Orks, the occasional meta bust
IG, 2 and one heavily leans on allies
I'm sure I've left someone out. But if looking at having a chance at top ten-ish finish Nids might be the only thing that reliably can bring down an up and running 2++, can make riptides quake in fear, and can put an awesome shooting/CC platform out in mass (hello dakkafex).
Could it be that this codex has been intentionally rendered bland in order to produce several colorful and 'winning' codex supplements for hive fleets?
You need the codex plus the codex supplement to run one of those armies, whereas just running the main codex army just requires the main book. If the 'codex: hive fleet toadballs' is really full of bells and whistles, then all the nid players will rush to buy it and the codex... Double yer money! Perhaps that's where all the booty's hidden! In the specialized codex supplements following.
Not normally a conspiracy theorists....but you may have a point here. **shudder**
my apologies dakka dakka. I must say this just one more time. THEY fething KILLED MY fething TIE-UP TERMIANTORS FOR HALF A GAME, RIPPER gaking, DAEMON PRINCE KILLING, fething 62 DOLLARS PARASITE OF MORTREX, AND fething REPLACED IT FOR AN UGLY ASSED PEICE OF gak OVERGROWN WORM.
at least mawlocs are worth it now, if you take a trygon prime to keep synapse.
There have been several recent self-destruction trends within GWHQ. And this is the first Codex where all these trends led to the obvious and complete invalidation of an army:
1.) Managers with no idea of the game and the hobby took over all power. People in the studio familiar with the game and hobby have no say anymore. Everything is subjugated to simplistic ideas of how to make short-time cash that work so well among investment bankers. Therefore a product that just doesn't work was released "to save money", before essential fixes could be made.
2.) Feedback loops within the company were cut off, until no game designer wanted to be responsible for this product and an "Alan Smithee" http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alan_Smithee was credited as author. Maybe some of the arbitrary point changes (rippers, Tyranid Prime) are a silent protest and cry for help that can easily sneak past the managers but are obvious to everyone playing the game.
3.) GW managers have a pathological hate for second markets, with Chapterhouse the most hated target.They still think that second markets are illegal per se and do not understand why their lawsuit doesn't run so well. So they decided that 4 of the 5 units without models won't get any model at all and are deleted completely, to punish Chapterhouse and every Tyranid gamer. House detention and no breakfast for being naughty.
4.) GW bean counters said that low run models don't reap enough profit and metal and finecast products should be discontinued completely. Tyranids missed 2 character models and maybe an Ymgarl conversion set. Those could only be done as low run products. Another reason to delete those units whatever the consequences for gameplay.
5.) For the last 4 years, adding a flyer or recently an Apocalypse unit (Riptide, Wraithknight, Escalation) was enough to give new Codices an edge over older ones. Tyranids already got flyers and the biggest monstrous creature with their last Codex, so the easy fix was already done. Designers got no time or motivation or whatever to work on a real new Codex with new ideas. The old Cruddace Codex was full of new ideas, but obviously the management stopped this trend for so called economic reasons (see 3 and 4).
6.) As Tim Kirby said in the recent annual Report:"We value people’s attitudes and behaviour even higher than their knowledge and skills". Maybe GW hired too many incompetent people just because those were yes-men. Maybe too many competent people left the company, voluntarily or not. The Tyranid Codex is a rushed and inferior product with obvious flaws. Could be that GW is not able anymore to make a good product even without a management hindering them to do their job.
Now quality deterioration has reached a new low, with a Codex released that just doesn't work, doesn't inspire and will make customers rethink preordering new stuff blindly "because it can't be that bad and will certainly work out somehow". Give it a month to settle, and this trust is gone.
Management has systematically killed all feedback loops and lives in their own dreamworld, where doubling prices and not talking to anybody is the solution to every problem. There is no easy way to change the company dynamics to a prospering one, because it involves getting rid of the current allmighty management, including CEO and chair and major shareholder Tim Kirby.
Management destroyed the LOTR/Hobbit game. Management destroyed Warhammer Fantasy. Now their new challenge is to make 40k unattractive and unplayable. Apocalypse units in regular games and the Tyranid Codex are a "promising" step in that direction.
Iron_Captain wrote:Just wait until all the initial silly nerdrage calms down, then have a good look and make a decision for yourself.
lobbywatson wrote:Maybe they should play a couple 20 games or so before boycotting....
riburn3 wrote:So much doom and gloom by people that are yet to play a match or build a list. This is almost an identical repeat to the Eldar release and all the crying that caused in the first week or two.
4 units were deleted from the Codex. How will that change their performance in gameplay? Too early to say, let's wait a month of playtesting
2.) Feedback loops within the company were cut off, until no game designer wanted to be responsible for this product and an "Alan Smithee" http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alan_Smithee was credited as author.
I agree with your post, and this here not only makes sense but would be funny as hell. Cruddace is sitting at home reading these threads like... "goddamit what did I do? I don't even have to work on the Tyranid codex and they all blame me for it!". Although, he did co-sign it in the WD with his Tyranids interview, and he gave us the 5E that this book was built off, so meh he deserves it.
riburn3 wrote:So much doom and gloom by people that are yet to play a match or build a list. This is almost an identical repeat to the Eldar release and all the crying that caused in the first week or two.
The happenings of now have almost nothing in common with the events that took place proceeding the Eldar list. They had a new codex and failed to see its strengths. That wasn't for 2 weeks following the release either - by release it was all but the most ignorant and worst players who had come around to accept that their new dex was very playable. This is the opposite to whats happening here, we weren't given new rules to playtest, we had models taken out, with very new rules added. Where is our Supporting Fire? Everyone already knows this dex back to front. This release is seeing tons of backlash throughout every 40k community, people returning bulk purchases, the release being heralded as the worst yet by GW. Playtesting won't change a thing - if we even become the best army in 40k somehow with this codex, this would not make it a good dex - its built around restrictive gameplay and lacks options from the last dex., even if we have had some points reductions to certain models.
I feel like a lot of people saying "playtest the dex before judging it" don't really have any experience with Nids what so ever.
I "love" the new IB rules. I'm part of a campaign that is doing Kill Teams. I can either take a full assault army. Or have my army run off the board turn 1. Decisions, decisions...
I have to say, I'm rather shocked at this book. It's awful. Just across the board awful. None of the design changes make any sense or seem to have been done to conform to the 6E ruleset. Lots of it basically just seems like arbitrary changes made for their own sake. I don't understand how they let this out the door as it is.
I thought CSM's were bad...the poor Tyranids got the same but even worse. This would not seem to bode well for the Imperial Guard given they were done by the same author last time around and GW seems to be in the business of "abritrarily different, but largely the same" with some of these books.
Vaktathi wrote: I have to say, I'm rather shocked at this book. It's awful. Just across the board awful. None of the design changes make any sense or seem to have been done to conform to the 6E ruleset. Lots of it basically just seems like arbitrary changes made for their own sake. I don't understand how they let this out the door as it is.
I thought CSM's were bad...the poor Tyranids got the same but even worse. This would not seem to bode well for the Imperial Guard given they were done by the same author last time around and GW seems to be in the business of "abritrarily different, but largely the same" with some of these books.
Totally agree. I think I is one of the bottom 3 codex in terms of relative competitiveness, perhaps the worst in terms of design.
However, I don't think there anything we can infer about future codex from this one, aside from the fact that the Tyranids have widened the gap of what's possible by presenting a new low.
Vaktathi wrote: I have to say, I'm rather shocked at this book. It's awful. Just across the board awful. None of the design changes make any sense or seem to have been done to conform to the 6E ruleset. Lots of it basically just seems like arbitrary changes made for their own sake. I don't understand how they let this out the door as it is.
I thought CSM's were bad...the poor Tyranids got the same but even worse. This would not seem to bode well for the Imperial Guard given they were done by the same author last time around and GW seems to be in the business of "abritrarily different, but largely the same" with some of these books.
Totally agree. I think I is one of the bottom 3 codex in terms of relative competitiveness, perhaps the worst in terms of design.
However, I don't think there anything we can infer about future codex from this one, aside from the fact that the Tyranids have widened the gap of what's possible by presenting a new low.
I agree. The last few codecies, even though overpowered a bit, showed us that complete overhauls were not only possible, but probable. To see the exact opposite happen with the Tyranid codex was just jarring.
I never fielded Tervigons, so my personal Tyranid lists most likely got better (or cheaper, at the very least), but with so many people playing the Tervigon swarm list, and for GW to hit that build with such a nerf bat, it's pretty shocking...
Kroothawk wrote: 4 units were deleted from the Codex. How will that change their performance in gameplay? Too early to say, let's wait a month of playtesting
4.) GW bean counters said that low run models don't reap enough profit and metal and finecast products should be discontinued completely. Tyranids missed 2 character models and maybe an Ymgarl conversion set. Those could only be done as low run products. Another reason to delete those units whatever the consequences for gameplay.
Was thinking the exact same thing about unique characters. Although this is complete conjecture, I think we're going to see less and less each codex as, being 'unique', by definition are only going to ever need one. Sisters lost aSC [which brought us down to a grand total of two]. Although I think this was largely because of low stock of Kyrinov, there was no attempt to replace him.
I think going forwards, where possible, there are going to be more of the Carnifex style kits, i.e. the option to make the special character out of the 'normal' kit, which forces you to buy more of the bigger, more expensive kit to get your SC.
Makes sense from a business point of view, but disappointing from a gaming/collecting point of view. I love special characters, to me they're what gives the army its flavour. Eldar managed to keep 9 SCs, seems as though Phil Kelly pulls more weight than the others.
I think it's kind of telling when most of the good lists you can make with this codex, excluding carnifexes, were actually just better in the last codex.
Does some of my analysis also make sense to you? Or do you still think this is unfounded sarcasm by a blind GW hater (with a long Tyranid blog) that should be ignored?
BTW I think it should become common practice for all tournament organizers, to allow Tyranid players to chose between old and new Codex. This is only fair and would also send a message to GW that there is a limit to how bad a Codex can get.
Vaktathi wrote: I have to say, I'm rather shocked at this book. It's awful. Just across the board awful. None of the design changes make any sense or seem to have been done to conform to the 6E ruleset. Lots of it basically just seems like arbitrary changes made for their own sake. I don't understand how they let this out the door as it is.
I thought CSM's were bad...the poor Tyranids got the same but even worse. This would not seem to bode well for the Imperial Guard given they were done by the same author last time around and GW seems to be in the business of "abritrarily different, but largely the same" with some of these books.
Totally agree. I think I is one of the bottom 3 codex in terms of relative competitiveness, perhaps the worst in terms of design.
However, I don't think there anything we can infer about future codex from this one, aside from the fact that the Tyranids have widened the gap of what's possible by presenting a new low.
I agree. The last few codecies, even though overpowered a bit, showed us that complete overhauls were not only possible, but probable. To see the exact opposite happen with the Tyranid codex was just jarring.
I never fielded Tervigons, so my personal Tyranid lists most likely got better (or cheaper, at the very least), but with so many people playing the Tervigon swarm list, and for GW to hit that build with such a nerf bat, it's pretty shocking...
Out of interest, what list were you running that you think has gotten better?
I wouldn't mind losing special units, if normal units had more viable options. Look at the Hive Tyrant, every list anyone has proposed seems to run two identical flying double-devourer tyrants. This is boring. I can't understand why they removed Armoured Shell, as without it walking tyrants are dead. A good codex is not only competitive (which this book isn't), it also allows people to built their armies in multiple different ways without gimping themselves. (In this regard I think Marines have the best 6e codex.)
riburn3 wrote:So much doom and gloom by people that are yet to play a match or build a list. This is almost an identical repeat to the Eldar release and all the crying that caused in the first week or two.
Seriously? Most of the "doom and gloom" of a new Codex release revolves around 1) "Wahhhh, my old list has to change now because the units aren't the same!" (eg, Eldar, Black Templar) or 2) "Wahhhh, they changed the style and I don't like it anymore!" (eg, Necrons, Tau). This isn't the case with Nids - they simply did not change the things that were broken, and merely nerfed the gak out of the things that actually worked before... which is really bad, because while our mainstays made for bland list building, at least they could hold their own. Now nearly everything sucks, so... hooray? Nids might actually be the worst army in the game now, and I don't say that as an exaggeration. I was going to buy this book, but there's no way I'm spending $60 on a worse product than what we already had.
Wow. Seriously everybody putting have on the new codex needs to wake up. It's been out for one day and lots of people are writing it off as the worst codex and a "rushed job" if you don't like the rules then don't but the codex or the models, it's simple and you can go play another game like magic the gathering and bitch about how bad their new releases are.
Lobukia wrote: Flyrant, biovore, fex lists with some fast flyers will be winning/placing in tourneys in a few months. Then so many can feel silly.
You fail to understand the problem. Nids can and will win, but we went from one Monobuild to a different monobuild. There is even more limited variety now.
What codex has more than 2 truly viable tourney builds?
Tournament, most of them.
Really?
Chaos Marines, maybe two
Daemons, again maybe two
DA.... moving on
Eldar, 2
DE, as an ally, 1
GK, with inquisition out, it's not even an ally
Crons, maybe maybe two
Tau, 2
SM, what besides bikes?
BA...
SW great ally
Orks, the occasional meta bust
IG, 2 and one heavily leans on allies
I'm sure I've left someone out. But if looking at having a chance at top ten-ish finish Nids might be the only thing that reliably can bring down an up and running 2++, can make riptides quake in fear, and can put an awesome shooting/CC platform out in mass (hello dakkafex).
This list shows your limited experience in tournaments. Perhaps you should go read some of the Batreps of people going to the higher tier tournaments. You will see how limited your list is. Simply having Allies makes numerous competitive combos.
2.) Feedback loops within the company were cut off, until no game designer wanted to be responsible for this product and an "Alan Smithee" http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alan_Smithee was credited as author. Maybe some of the arbitrary point changes (rippers, Tyranid Prime) are a silent protest and cry for help that can easily sneak past the managers but are obvious to everyone playing the game.
I'm going to offer another possible angle on this:
It could also represent a shift in policy from the game designers due to getting hatemail and endless meme punishment from the online gaming community, I do know from talking to someone quite relevant, that the amount of flak certain design team staff have received for poorly received codex writing has left them virtually unable to use social media or enjoy gaming forums like this one.
The choice to not put a single name on this codex may reflect the decision to stop giving the baying hordes a single target to blame for what they believe is bad background writing, rules, naming choices etc. It must be pretty disheartening to land a great job creating fun stuff for games and playing with toy soldiers all day and then discover you've become an internet meme with (in some cases) really hate-filled stuff, just because you called something a spleen missile or a wolf shield or whatever.
It's been 20 years since Nagash was sculpted, but Gary Morley still gets hauled over the coals for it multiple times a year in threads with 'worst model' when he's already given reason for it's appearance and produced many excellent models in the meanwhile and many of GW's best sculptors leaned their skills from him. But still some spankers chortle and drag the bones of a very long dead horse out to beat it, again and again, ad nauseum, to punish a decent bloke and a good sculptor for making something his bosses told him to make, to the point where he got so sick of it he had to go onto a forum and defend himself.
Perhaps the designers just got sick of seeing their name blasted online, or someone willing them to die for writing something they didn't like, and decided to put this 'design team' up instead.
(PS: GW, bring back Nagash and bring Morley back in and let him sculpt it as he wants to, so we can put that to bed finally. )
2.) Feedback loops within the company were cut off, until no game designer wanted to be responsible for this product and an "Alan Smithee" http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alan_Smithee was credited as author. Maybe some of the arbitrary point changes (rippers, Tyranid Prime) are a silent protest and cry for help that can easily sneak past the managers but are obvious to everyone playing the game.
I'm going to offer another possible angle on this:
It could also represent a shift in policy from the game designers due to getting hatemail and endless meme punishment from the online gaming community, I do know from talking to someone quite relevant, that the amount of flak certain design team staff have received for poorly received codex writing has left them virtually unable to use social media or enjoy gaming forums like this one.
The choice to not put a single name on this codex may reflect the decision to stop giving the baying hordes a single target to blame for what they believe is bad background writing, rules, naming choices etc. It must be pretty disheartening to land a great job creating fun stuff for games and playing with toy soldiers all day and then discover you've become an internet meme with (in some cases) really hate-filled stuff, just because you called something a spleen missile or a wolf shield or whatever.
It's been 20 years since Nagash was sculpted, but Gary Morley still gets hauled over the coals for it multiple times a year in threads with 'worst model' when he's already given reason for it's appearance and produced many excellent models in the meanwhile and many of GW's best sculptors leaned their skills from him. But still some spankers chortle and drag the bones of a very long dead horse out to beat it, again and again, ad nauseum, to punish a decent bloke and a good sculptor for making something his bosses told him to make, to the point where he got so sick of it he had to go onto a forum and defend himself.
Perhaps the designers just got sick of seeing their name blasted online, or someone willing them to die for writing something they didn't like, and decided to put this 'design team' up instead.
(PS: GW, bring back Nagash and bring Morley back in and let him sculpt it as he wants to, so we can put that to bed finally. )
^ This is more reasonable.
I'm sure that Ward wouldn't be too happy if he read 1d4chan's page on him (he probably has as well)
I'd believe it, you've got cruddnce's point costs, Kelly's random tables, Kelly's love of odd artifacts that require killing to activate, and Kelly's every other turn nonsense in melee. With a few confusing Ward text like the Pyrovore's explosive hits all units bomb.
The choice to not put a single name on this codex may reflect the decision to stop giving the baying hordes a single target to blame for what they believe is bad background writing, rules, naming choices etc. It must be pretty disheartening to land a great job creating fun stuff for games and playing with toy soldiers all day and then discover you've become an internet meme with (in some cases) really hate-filled stuff, just because you called something a spleen missile or a wolf shield or whatever.
Perhaps the designers just got sick of seeing their name blasted online, or someone willing them to die for writing something they didn't like, and decided to put this 'design team' up instead.
I assume we're talking Matt Ward. The 'hate' that he gets is based upon a complete lack of regard for internal or external balance. The silly names he gives to items just provides extra flavour to the criticism about his ability to write a well thought out codex.
I also think you're misrepresenting the Dakka community [who are also GW customers with the right to express their opinion about their products]. When the latest Dark Eldar dex came out I can't remember seeing anything but praise for a competitive [but not overpowered], well thought out codex which provided the opportunity to create lots of viable builds. Most people also seem to be very happy with the Eldar codex [although it is perhaps too strong in comparison].
When they get it right, there is lots of praise, but when they get it wrong, lots of criticism. Which is as it should be.
The choice to not put a single name on this codex may reflect the decision to stop giving the baying hordes a single target to blame for what they believe is bad background writing, rules, naming choices etc. It must be pretty disheartening to land a great job creating fun stuff for games and playing with toy soldiers all day and then discover you've become an internet meme with (in some cases) really hate-filled stuff, just because you called something a spleen missile or a wolf shield or whatever.
Perhaps the designers just got sick of seeing their name blasted online, or someone willing them to die for writing something they didn't like, and decided to put this 'design team' up instead.
I assume we're talking Matt Ward. The 'hate' that he gets is based upon a complete lack of regard for internal or external balance. The silly names he gives to items just provides extra flavour to the criticism about his ability to write a well thought out codex.
I also think you're misrepresenting the Dakka community [who are also GW customers with the right to express their opinion about their products]. When the latest Dark Eldar dex came out I can't remember seeing anything but praise for a competitive [but not overpowered], well thought out codex which provided the opportunity to create lots of viable builds. Most people also seem to be very happy with the Eldar codex [although it is perhaps too strong in comparison].
When they get it right, there is lots of praise, but when they get it wrong, lots of criticism. Which is as it should be.
There's criticism, and then there's this, from 1d4chan :
"Because he's an idiot, a fething powergamer trying to overcome Phil Kelly in codex-writing (HA!), and assumes that we are also idiots. He keeps up the fine tradition (started with Jervis Johnson) of trying to make his pet projects the prettiest and most special. His stupid isn't OUR sort of stupid, so we hate him."
I admit that I don't like his style that much either, but sweet christ. There's construction criticism, and there's being hostile. This fits into the latter.
I assume we're talking Matt Ward. The 'hate' that he gets is based upon a complete lack of regard for internal or external balance. The silly names he gives to items just provides extra flavour to the criticism about his ability to write a well thought out codex.
Ward is certainly the cause celebre, but it's a spinning wheel, as each codex crops up and then each writer gets to go on the wheel of popularity, I've seen fairly hostile things directed at Cruddace, Thorpe, Hoare, Johnson, Kelly etc. You need to distinguish between criticism of the writing and the calls for these people to suffer horrible fates or just infantile and ridiculous name calling, for their 'sins' of book writing and rules creation. I've certainly stated clear criticism of what's not good, in my opinion, in a book, and then moved on, but some folks just don't stop endlessly harping on and being offensive and hostile into the bargin. As I said, certain of the writers have had hateful messages sent to their facebook pages and elsewhere, deeply hostile and offensive stuff. That isn't on.
I also think you're misrepresenting the Dakka community [who are also GW customers with the right to express their opinion about their products].
I think you're taking my comments, incorrectly, as personally directed to the Dakka community, of which I am a part and have been for some time. There are elements on 'the internet', in all it's wargaming areas and as I said, beyond into social media, that don't get the difference between criticism of product, as a customer with the right to do so, and being an offensive gak. Willing someone to die, calling them unpleasant names and so on isn't expressing opinion on product.
When the latest Dark Eldar dex came out I can't remember seeing anything but praise for a competitive [but not overpowered], well thought out codex which provided the opportunity to create lots of viable builds. Most people also seem to be very happy with the Eldar codex [although it is perhaps too strong in comparison].
When they get it right, there is lots of praise, but when they get it wrong, lots of criticism. Which is as it should be.
Lots of people without Eldar are very ready to cite the Eldar codex as overpowered, broken and otherwise too strong. Again, that's criticism and again, that's fair, customers do get to say what they want about the product. Again, you have chosen to read my post and construe that I said noone can criticize product, I did not say that, I am reasonably known on this forum for being critical of the product... But, again, the levels to which some have chosen to behave and post and tell another human being, over a game of toy soldiers, have exceeded decent and reasoned behavior.
And so I offered another explanation for the removal of the single name as writer, to remove the target for those few people who want to send some really vile stuff to a guy who wrote a book wrong, in their opinion, and remove a target for the many who'd lampoon that individual to the extent of spam.
Criticism, citing a rationale problem with a product, is one thing. Calling for someone to suffer some calamity or using some very unpleasant insult or indeed wanting them to die, over their writing skills, in the opinion of the reader, is quite another.
jifel wrote: Ok, a Facebook page with 14 likes is essentially non-existent.
No, it quite clearly exists, as do the private messages sent to writers, as do the everyday throwaway comments made by people that are childish, vicious, hostile, admittedly often made by people who would never be so unpleasant face to face, but seemingly under the impression that they won't be read by their target or that their target is some fictional character who doesn't get insulted or pissed off by them.
It's a small community, these comments are seen.
Anyway, mine was just a theory for an alternative reason for the name being removed from the codex, as opposed to Kroot's suggestion that noone wanted to put their name on it out of shame of the contents being forced on them by upper management, in the absence of any official statements from a GW writer or leak, you are free to come to your own conclusions.
jifel wrote: Ok, a Facebook page with 14 likes is essentially non-existent.
No, it quite clearly exists, as do the private messages sent to writers, as do the everyday throwaway comments made by people that are childish, vicious, hostile, admittedly often made by people who would never be so unpleasant face to face, but seemingly under the impression that they won't be read by their target or that their target is some fictional character who doesn't get insulted or pissed off by them.
It's a small community, these comments are seen.
Anyway, mine was just a theory for an alternative reason for the name being removed from the codex, as opposed to Kroot's suggestion that noone wanted to put their name on it out of shame of the contents being forced on them by upper management, in the absence of any official statements from a GW writer or leak, you are free to come to your own conclusions.
thanks for this eminently reasonable post.
Of course it's not unusual - you only need to go to the comment pages of some newspapers to see the vitriol directed at public figures. But these are just guys doing their job.
As to the original question... for club play, I think we might allow the old dex in some fashion. Then again, we often let a weaker dex (Orks or 5th ed Tau before the update) have a 5% or 10% bump. If it starts being too strong, then we pull the bonus points and off we go.
I can't see tournaments allowing the old dex though. But I think it would be hilarious if they did. While I think it's an overreaction now, I can't with a straight face say that I think this is a strong codex in the current meta, and we all know that it could have been much better with more options.
well... the book is what, 48 hours old. Dont get too carried away just yet. Looks like they now have a decent AP ranged option and another legit anti flier opton in the harpie. Its not all doom and gloom. Wait and see what super cool lists the internet makes before jumping the gun
Its only two weapon options are template weapons, and so cannot be used against enemy flyers.
The crone is in the same boat, except for its limited use Tentaclids.
We have 0 new real anti-flyer options. We have 0 weapons with skyfire, and only the Hive Tyrant has actual shooting weapons usable against enemy flyers. Same as we had before.
I think this about sums up how garbage nids are now with synapse being a huge killer for them
@steamdragon
The crone is decent against flyers, it can resonably kill one per turn but that is if the enemy doesnt throw a rock at it or a stiff breeze doesnt come by when its on the board.
Its only two weapon options are template weapons, and so cannot be used against enemy flyers.
The crone is in the same boat, except for its limited use Tentaclids.
We have 0 new real anti-flyer options. We have 0 weapons with skyfire, and only the Hive Tyrant has actual shooting weapons usable against enemy flyers. Same as we had before.
Pretty much right - although both can take Stinger Salvos which give it Assault 4 Str 5 wweapons with 18" range not awesome against anything but the lightly armoured flyers.
The Harpys 4 missiles are not bad - Twin linked Str 5 Haywire and it can do Str 8 Vector Stirkes. Its Drool cannon is S6 so might glance some flyers.
There are a number of non skyfire weapons -
the rupture Cannon is 48", Str 10, assault 2 so might get lucky,
Implaer Cannons are 24" S8, Assault 2 and ignore cover/LOS - nice against skimmers .
Bio Plasma Cannons are 24" S7, Ap2 and Assult 6
Devourers with Brianleechs are 18", S6 and assault 6
Dish2296 wrote: Wow. Seriously everybody putting have on the new codex needs to wake up. It's been out for one day and lots of people are writing it off as the worst codex and a "rushed job" if you don't like the rules then don't but the codex or the models, it's simple and you can go play another game like magic the gathering and bitch about how bad their new releases are.
George L. wrote: well... the book is what, 48 hours old. Dont get too carried away just yet. Looks like they now have a decent AP ranged option and another legit anti flier opton in the harpie. Its not all doom and gloom. Wait and see what super cool lists the internet makes before jumping the gun
Normally this would be me doing these quotes, but seriously - the Codex is awful. Yes, we got a couple decent weapons, but that does not make up for all the stuff that got nerfed into oblivion and the fact that our utter crap units are still utter crap. 95% of the Codex just doesn't work...
The choice to not put a single name on this codex may reflect the decision to stop giving the baying hordes a single target to blame for what they believe is bad background writing, rules, naming choices etc. It must be pretty disheartening to land a great job creating fun stuff for games and playing with toy soldiers all day and then discover you've become an internet meme with (in some cases) really hate-filled stuff, just because you called something a spleen missile or a wolf shield or whatever.
When your job affects (well, decides) the quality of all purchases including past-purchases for an extremely expensive brand of miniatures, perhaps you should view it more as a fun time to get creative with your toy soldiers. I personally feel there needs to be serious thought to balancing put in.
BlaxicanX wrote: So all it has is the haywire missile and vector strike. Assuming the haywire missile doesn't pen, that's a maximum of two hull-points per turn.
No, thats a maximum of 5 hull points, and a minimum of 0.
I personally think maybe look at the Crone in comparison to the Hive Guard. For the same amount of points it has the same amount of range and Strength on its first Vektor Strike as HG doe with their Impalers, except of course movement restrictions make it impossible to hit the same target two turns in a row. That being taken into account, you have 2-4 S8 hits landing where you want, with AP3, and then the chance to fire off a missile or possibly soften up a squad with S6 template. It has the same save and toughness 5 instead of 6, but the trade off for this is immunity to blast weapons and templates, as well as only being hit on snapshots or by sky fire. It's not a perfect comparison since Crone works a bit differently in play given the flyer movement restrictions, but I just don't think it's as bad as some people want to pretend. One on it's own might get blasted out of the sky, and now without drop pods we might have very little options to ensure blowing up a backfield anti-air unit, but 5 flyers could work very nicely, I mean there is only so much that can reliably kill them and thats the stuff you focus. Don't look at the Crones as extra Flyrants look at them as HG with a couple of bonuses/changes, thats what the points costs entails.
BlaxicanX wrote: So all it has is the haywire missile and vector strike. Assuming the haywire missile doesn't pen, that's a maximum of two hull-points per turn.
No, thats a maximum of 5 hull points, and a minimum of 0.
As per the BRB, you can only fire 2 missiles per turn.
A GumyBear wrote: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kQQGcgJ5PZ0&feature=youtube_gdata_player
I think this about sums up how garbage nids are now with synapse being a huge killer for them
@steamdragon
The crone is decent against flyers, it can resonably kill one per turn but that is if the enemy doesnt throw a rock at it or a stiff breeze doesnt come by when its on the board.
How does the crone reasonably kill 1 flyer per turn ?
BlaxicanX wrote: So all it has is the haywire missile and vector strike. Assuming the haywire missile doesn't pen, that's a maximum of two hull-points per turn.
No, thats a maximum of 5 hull points, and a minimum of 0.
I edited like 20 minutes before you made this post.
Am going to be shot for saying that the codex isn't "that bad"
It's got a gak load of problems
THEY KILLED MY fething PARASITE OF MORTREX.
But aside from this, we can now fit nine carnifexes and 30 gaunts and a hive tyrant + 2 tyrant guard into 1500 point list.
Marine player: ok here's my army, a few tac squads, a dev squard, and 2 preds, oh and a storm raven.
'nids player: here's mine.
*places nine carnifexes on the field*
I posted this in another Tyranid whine thread, but it should be repeated:
The book is great! Tyranids got a bunch of deep-dish points reductions on heaps of units. What more do 'Nid players really want? An auto-'I Win' Codex that all the WAAC players can high-five one another over.
I mean they've got the awesome long-ranged Exocrine that can just bombard units to pieces, the Harpy and Crone that really give the Hellturkey a run for its money (the Crone more than the Harpy, if I'm honest), a great set of really useful psychic powers (like Onslaught – what other army can do anything like Onslaught?), the Haruspex can just monster vehicles and infantry alike, the new bio-artefacts give players heaps of really cool options (like the amazingly versatile Ymgarl Factor), and the Venomthrope can shroud most of your army meaning that enemy shooting is toast, giving plenty of time for your Genestealers and Warriors to get into combat. Sure, some units did go up in price – Prime, Tervigons, Hive Guard – but those were crutch units that power-gamers relied on to win games, so now they’re just paying what they’re worth rather than getting ‘el cheapo super-creatures.
Tyranids are awesome now!
NB: Nothing I said above is true. Not a word of it.
Played against a buddy with the new dex today with my mech IG force. In the end it wasn't really even close. 2 12 wound Carnifex squads (I think they were 3 wounds each in 5th but not sure) with close supporting zoanthorpes (and he rolled catalyst so was giving them FnP) . They basically just marched up the board and smashed the crap out of my Chimeras with just their Hammer of Wrath. The amount of high S fire power I brought was just not enough and between the monsterous creatures and ridiculous numbers of gaunts I got overwhelmed and was crushed. Personally I think the new dex has some major holes in it but overall it seems that it also has some things that work rather well together.
BlaxicanX wrote: So all it has is the haywire missile and vector strike. Assuming the haywire missile doesn't pen, that's a maximum of two hull-points per turn.
No, thats a maximum of 5 hull points, and a minimum of 0.
As per the BRB, you can only fire 2 missiles per turn.
1 missile if you Vektor Strike. Max 4 hull points from the Vektor Strike + max 1 hull point from the missile is a maximum of 5 hull points per turn, minimum of 0. Maximum means the maximum possible not plausible.
I edited like 20 minutes before you made this post.
Well, it was still like that when I hit the quote button, so that's what I responded to, so I don't know what else to tell you. I had to make breakfasts mid typing of that post so it was probably edited before I noticed
Watchersinthedark wrote: Played against a buddy with the new dex today with my mech IG force. In the end it wasn't really even close. 2 12 wound Carnifex squads (I think they were 3 wounds each in 5th but not sure) with close supporting zoanthorpes (and he rolled catalyst so was giving them FnP) . They basically just marched up the board and smashed the crap out of my Chimeras with just their Hammer of Wrath. The amount of high S fire power I brought was just not enough and between the monsterous creatures and ridiculous numbers of gaunts I got overwhelmed and was crushed. Personally I think the new dex has some major holes in it but overall it seems that it also has some things that work rather well together.
Only because you have no clue how to handle it yet. This will be a repetitive story in the next couple weeks. Nid army crushes soandso. Then you will hear about better target priority (Synapse) and more tactics and the Nids will drop back into a far more beatable army.
Codex is fine , old builds won't work the same but it's going to be very competitive , top NID players will kick butt ! Complaining about might brand you as either a bad player or someone stuck in the past and not seeing new combos and tactics . give it tme .....
Against a space marine captain:
Deathleaper easily makes it into close combat, needs 2+ to hit, 4+ to wound, I does this four times.
Captain strikes back. Needs6+ to hit, 4+ to wound, sounds fun.
the shrouded lord wrote: Against a space marine captain:
Deathleaper easily makes it into close combat, needs 2+ to hit, 4+ to wound, I does this four times.
Captain strikes back. Needs6+ to hit, 4+ to wound, sounds fun.
What?
As I see it, Deathleaper needs 3+ to hit, and the Captain hits him back on 4+
A GumyBear wrote: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kQQGcgJ5PZ0&feature=youtube_gdata_player
I think this about sums up how garbage nids are now with synapse being a huge killer for them
@steamdragon
The crone is decent against flyers, it can resonably kill one per turn but that is if the enemy doesnt throw a rock at it or a stiff breeze doesnt come by when its on the board.
How does the crone reasonably kill 1 flyer per turn ?
Well if a stuff breeze doesnt kill it first it can vector strike for a few HPs and can haywire twice for a few more
A GumyBear wrote: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kQQGcgJ5PZ0&feature=youtube_gdata_player
I think this about sums up how garbage nids are now with synapse being a huge killer for them
@steamdragon
The crone is decent against flyers, it can resonably kill one per turn but that is if the enemy doesnt throw a rock at it or a stiff breeze doesnt come by when its on the board.
How does the crone reasonably kill 1 flyer per turn ?
Well if a stuff breeze doesnt kill it first it can vector strike for a few HPs and can haywire twice for a few more
It can only fire one haywire if it vector strikes.
A GumyBear wrote: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kQQGcgJ5PZ0&feature=youtube_gdata_player
I think this about sums up how garbage nids are now with synapse being a huge killer for them
@steamdragon
The crone is decent against flyers, it can resonably kill one per turn but that is if the enemy doesnt throw a rock at it or a stiff breeze doesnt come by when its on the board.
How does the crone reasonably kill 1 flyer per turn ?
Well if a stuff breeze doesnt kill it first it can vector strike for a few HPs and can haywire twice for a few more
It can only fire one haywire if it vector strikes.
if you dont mind me asking could you tell me why? Im not too knowledgeable about FMCs since im a cron player so any rules I can learn about them is always a plus
H.B.M.C. wrote: I posted this in another Tyranid whine thread, but it should be repeated:
The book is great! Tyranids got a bunch of deep-dish points reductions on heaps of units. What more do 'Nid players really want? An auto-'I Win' Codex that all the WAAC players can high-five one another over.
I mean they've got the awesome long-ranged Exocrine that can just bombard units to pieces, the Harpy and Crone that really give the Hellturkey a run for its money (the Crone more than the Harpy, if I'm honest), a great set of really useful psychic powers (like Onslaught – what other army can do anything like Onslaught?), the Haruspex can just monster vehicles and infantry alike, the new bio-artefacts give players heaps of really cool options (like the amazingly versatile Ymgarl Factor), and the Venomthrope can shroud most of your army meaning that enemy shooting is toast, giving plenty of time for your Genestealers and Warriors to get into combat. Sure, some units did go up in price – Prime, Tervigons, Hive Guard – but those were crutch units that power-gamers relied on to win games, so now they’re just paying what they’re worth rather than getting ‘el cheapo super-creatures.
Tyranids are awesome now!
NB: Nothing I said above is true. Not a word of it.
Great. Now my sarcasm-detector overheated and exploded. Thanks a lot!
With 7 posts on Dakka. It was the first time he tried to share an analysis, and the last.
He was quickly answered back by people who read the Codex. Nobody agreed with him. At least on page 1. Sorry, I am not reading the rest.
--- Vaktathi was the first to give a thorough answer, going point by point using the Codex. Everything the OP claimed was wrong.
--- Theorius was the second, pointing more mistakes.
--- Arandmoor was the third.
The three of them started with something like "It's nice he explained everything. Not going to stop me from disagreeing with him on every point "
The rest of page 1 is people who answered with questions or not detailed answers. Most of them disagreed too.
This is something that some people are saying over and over as a mantra: "but when the Necron/Tau/Eldar Codex everyone said it was bad". No, it didn´t happen that way. At all. Most complaints about these Codices were that they were overpowered. Or fluff reasons (Necrons mostly). Of course, there is always someone who wants to whine a little. But it is, what, one out of a hundred? And these persons are usually received with "you got it wrong", "I disagree with you", "have you considered...?" and the like.
The Codices that get bad reviews from a majority of users reading them and playing the army are usually bad. At least from the point of view of the majority of the users that play the army.
If you want to prove your point, find a thread here on Dakka with a Necron player claiming how weak the Codex is and why, and other people saying that he is right.
By the way, the Necron codex got negative reviews almost everywhere. I know people who shred parts of it to pieces after buying it and people who abandoned the game after reading it. Massive nerd rage was unleashed to Mr Ward. But it had nothing to do with the rules. The rules were fine for most, overpowered for some. On the other side, Tau Codex got bad reviews from Tau players that claimed that they didn´t want to play Codex Markerlights.
In competitive lists? The meta today is all about min Warrior squads with scythes, destroyer lords, wraiths and annihilation barges out the ass.
What are his favorite units of the Codex? Imhotek and... Scythes. Seems like the guy was right on the money to me.
Frankly, I'd say that thread hurts your argument more than helps it. The majority of the Necron codex was considered trash on day 1 and those predictions are true today.
If I was to switch armies, hoping for something that takes skill to play well and isn't overpowered at all like tyranids were, yet still not with a codex full of crap units like Tyranids ARE, what would you guys suggest?
SHUPPET wrote: If I was to switch armies, hoping for something that takes skill to play well and isn't overpowered at all like tyranids were, yet still not with a codex full of crap units like Tyranids ARE, what would you guys suggest?
Space Marines. Or if you want to go Nintendo Hard then Adepta Sororitas.
SHUPPET wrote: If I was to switch armies, hoping for something that takes skill to play well and isn't overpowered at all like tyranids were, yet still not with a codex full of crap units like Tyranids ARE, what would you guys suggest?
There's always Space Marines. They're near completely customizable now, have a very good codex and a great deal of customability and fluffy armies. Plus there's always some Chapter that will interest you. Or you can make your own.
In competitive lists? The meta today is all about min Warrior squads with scythes, destroyer lords, wraiths and annihilation barges out the ass.
What are his favorite units of the Codex? Imhotek and... Scythes. Seems like the guy was right on the money to me.
Frankly, I'd say that thread hurts your argument more than helps it. The majority of the Necron codex was considered trash on day 1 and those predictions are true today.
They may be true now. They were not true at the beginnig. Immortals were fine and widely used, and well received as a second troop option. Canoptek Spiders ruled the game with Scarab Farms (considered "completely broken"). Royal Court was everywhere (they still are?). Many of these units are "normal", not bad at all, unless you want to go full competitive and limit yourself to "optimal" units. Doomsday Arks, Ghost Arks, Stalkers, Destroyers, even Monoliths can be used. There was also a lot of talking and experimentation about some C´tan configurations.
Two exceptions: Lych Guard, who was meh or useless, depending who you asked, and Flayed Ones. I never played with or against Lych, so I don´t know.
The Flayed Ones are tyranid/chaos-level of uselessness. That´s true. And it was obvious from the beginning. One unit.
And I am not alone thinking this: that´s why I posted the rest of the answers. Most people believed Necrons had got a serious level up or at least were competitive.
SHUPPET wrote: If I was to switch armies, hoping for something that takes skill to play well and isn't overpowered at all like tyranids were, yet still not with a codex full of crap units like Tyranids ARE, what would you guys suggest?
There's always Space Marines. They're near completely customizable now, have a very good codex and a great deal of customability and fluffy armies. Plus there's always some Chapter that will interest you. Or you can make your own.
I have a crapton of Space Marine models as well. Something like 3000 pts of Marines. Might be a good call, but aren't they fairly easy to play? Far less reliant on strategy? And one of the more powerful dex's, I know they aren't Eldar but still quite tough? I have like two power armor players in my meta and ones CSM ones Dark Angels so I have had very little experience with C:SM.
With 7 posts on Dakka. It was the first time he tried to share an analysis, and the last.
He was quickly answered back by people who read the Codex. Nobody agreed with him. At least on page 1. Sorry, I am not reading the rest.
--- Vaktathi was the first to give a thorough answer, going point by point using the Codex. Everything the OP claimed was wrong.
--- Theorius was the second, pointing more mistakes.
--- Arandmoor was the third.
The three of them started with something like "It's nice he explained everything. Not going to stop me from disagreeing with him on every point "
The rest of page 1 is people who answered with questions or not detailed answers. Most of them disagreed too.
This is something that some people are saying over and over as a mantra: "but when the Necron/Tau/Eldar Codex everyone said it was bad". No, it didn´t happen that way. At all. Most complaints about these Codices were that they were overpowered. Or fluff reasons (Necrons mostly). Of course, there is always someone who wants to whine a little. But it is, what, one out of a hundred? And these persons are usually received with "you got it wrong", "I disagree with you", "have you considered...?" and the like.
The Codices that get bad reviews from a majority of users reading them and playing the army are usually bad. At least from the point of view of the majority of the users that play the army.
If you want to prove your point, find a thread here on Dakka with a Necron player claiming how weak the Codex is and why, and other people saying that he is right.
By the way, the Necron codex got negative reviews almost everywhere. I know people who shred parts of it to pieces after buying it and people who abandoned the game after reading it. Massive nerd rage was unleashed to Mr Ward. But it had nothing to do with the rules. The rules were fine for most, overpowered for some. On the other side, Tau Codex got bad reviews from Tau players that claimed that they didn´t want to play Codex Markerlights.
Nearly all the complaining about the Necron dex had to do with fluff whining. Also, since it was released in 5th ed, there was some hesitation about why it wasn't as OP as the GK codex which had just preceded it, so a lot of people thought the book was mediocre at the time. Of course, then 6th rolled around and we realized we'd be WAAAAAARD'ed again...
Bottom line: we're not whining unjustly. The new Nids Codex sucks, and is easily the worst Codex release in years (even worse than our last Codex was, which was notoriously bad as well).
Oh dear GW, what on earth did you do to Tyranids?
How can you possibly consider this a competitive codex.
People should be asking for their money back and returning these dex's. Is it really that hard to play test and ensure people can actually win the odd game that wasn't due to sheer fluke?
I for one will not be purchasing any Tyranid merchandise which is a real shame as I was looking forward to playing them.
I seriously suggest a review of the Tyranid Codex and introduction of an FAQ to fix some of the issues.
If you want a list of suggested changes I and the hobby community would be happy to help.
Ignoring this post would just suggest that know one actually cares and your customers should therefore be taking their money elsewhere.
Oh dear GW, what on earth did you do to Tyranids?
How can you possibly consider this a competitive codex.
People should be asking for their money back and returning these dex's. Is it really that hard to play test and ensure people can actually win the odd game that wasn't due to sheer fluke?
I for one will not be purchasing any Tyranid merchandise which is a real shame as I was looking forward to playing them.
I seriously suggest a review of the Tyranid Codex and introduction of an FAQ to fix some of the issues.
If you want a list of suggested changes I and the hobby community would be happy to help.
Ignoring this post would just suggest that know one actually cares and your customers should therefore be taking their money elsewhere.
I doubt a comment like this would make any impact whatsoever, unless you can accompany it with some evidence.
Criticising illogical rules,, poor photoshop additions (on the Harpy illustration), typos and poor grammar is probably worth a go, but a general vague slag-off is unlikely to elicit a response. If you're slagging them off for not play-testing, include some meaningful play-testing results of your own. FInally, if you're complaining, you need to tell them that you bought the product,, along with the reasons for why it's unsatisfactory
Hivefleet Oblivion, I'm not expecting anything meaningful but if you don't criticise a bad product and if you don't try then nothing will happen either.
I understand the need for evidence, at least I have hopefully created a starting point for other people to make their voices heard.
Oh dear GW, what on earth did you do to Tyranids?
How can you possibly consider this a competitive codex.
People should be asking for their money back and returning these dex's. Is it really that hard to play test and ensure people can actually win the odd game that wasn't due to sheer fluke?
I for one will not be purchasing any Tyranid merchandise which is a real shame as I was looking forward to playing them.
I seriously suggest a review of the Tyranid Codex and introduction of an FAQ to fix some of the issues.
If you want a list of suggested changes I and the hobby community would be happy to help.
Ignoring this post would just suggest that know one actually cares and your customers should therefore be taking their money elsewhere.
I doubt a comment like this would make any impact whatsoever, unless you can accompany it with some evidence.
Criticising illogical rules,, poor photoshop additions (on the Harpy illustration), typos and poor grammar is probably worth a go, but a general vague slag-off is unlikely to elicit a response. If you're slagging them off for not play-testing, include some meaningful play-testing results of your own. FInally, if you're complaining, you need to tell them that you bought the product,, along with the reasons for why it's unsatisfactory
They will just delete the post. There have been numerous complaint posts that are now gone.
I love the GW defenders that say oh it's not that bad you haven't even played a game with new book. So little has changed we don't have to I will give you an example.
Tervigon 5th ed upgraded was 195 that is with toxin sacs AD glands and 2 powers
6th ed base cost 190 one power no BRB powers and the range of py shock is doubled that mean guants within 12" taek s3 3d6 hits before it was 6
MDizzle wrote: I love the GW defenders that say oh it's not that bad you haven't even played a game with new book. So little has changed we don't have to I will give you an example.
Tervigon 5th ed upgraded was 195 that is with toxin sacs AD glands and 2 powers
6th ed base cost 190 one power no BRB powers and the range of py shock is doubled that mean guants within 12" taek s3 3d6 hits before it was 6
So nid players can pretty much figure that out.
It's called Apologism. And this game in particular is rife with it.
Oh dear GW, what on earth did you do to Tyranids? How can you possibly consider this a competitive codex. People should be asking for their money back and returning these dex's. Is it really that hard to play test and ensure people can actually win the odd game that wasn't due to sheer fluke?
I for one will not be purchasing any Tyranid merchandise which is a real shame as I was looking forward to playing them.
I seriously suggest a review of the Tyranid Codex and introduction of an FAQ to fix some of the issues. If you want a list of suggested changes I and the hobby community would be happy to help.
Ignoring this post would just suggest that know one actually cares and your customers should therefore be taking their money elsewhere.
While I personally like your effort, I'm pretty sure that's not GW's page. GW doesn't have an official Facebook page. The closest you get is the Digital Editions page. The one you posted to is made by some random person, I believe.
Ah the endless flame war between the the Enlightened Few and their mortal enemies, the Blind Apologists.
Does it matter? This forum isn't going to create a significant "boycott" of the product. The 6th Edition Tyranid Codex is here to stay (for a while at least). Future Tyranid books won't be influenced (much) by internet backlash.
It's not the book I was hoping for, and I think it is full of missed opportunities and does seem like a rushed work with far too little Tyranid flavour (reminds me of CSM 4th Edition), I'm not going to give up my hobby or "bench my Tyranids" because of it..
Xyptc wrote: Ah the endless flame war between the the Enlightened Few and their mortal enemies, the Blind Apologists.
Does it matter? This forum isn't going to create a significant "boycott" of the product. The 6th Edition Tyranid Codex is here to stay (for a while at least). Future Tyranid books won't be influenced (much) by internet backlash.
It's not the book I was hoping for, and I think it is full of missed opportunities and does seem like a rushed work with far too little Tyranid flavour (reminds me of CSM 4th Edition), I'm not going to give up my hobby or "bench my Tyranids" because of it..
Personally, I returned all the stuff I bought. Partly because of the way they handled the codex, and partly because there wasn't any point in owning them anyway, most of the new stuff isn't great. Do I think it will matter? That depends. Do I think it will magically change GW's attitude toward things, or somehow make them release a new Tyranid codex? Hahaha, no. Do I think I just saved myself $200+? Yes.
I'm certainly not going to be of the opinion "well shucks, I guess I'll just live with it". Hell no, I returned that gak.
SHUPPET wrote: If I was to switch armies, hoping for something that takes skill to play well and isn't overpowered at all like tyranids were, yet still not with a codex full of crap units like Tyranids ARE, what would you guys suggest?
There's always Space Marines. They're near completely customizable now, have a very good codex and a great deal of customability and fluffy armies. Plus there's always some Chapter that will interest you. Or you can make your own.
I have a crapton of Space Marine models as well. Something like 3000 pts of Marines. Might be a good call, but aren't they fairly easy to play? Far less reliant on strategy? And one of the more powerful dex's, I know they aren't Eldar but still quite tough? I have like two power armor players in my meta and ones CSM ones Dark Angels so I have had very little experience with C:SM.
Depends on the Chapter Tactics you use and the forces you wield.You could always do something like the BT's, lots of assault troops to make victory harder.
When I look at the horrid nature of these changes overall it just... hurts... The point decreases honestly just don't justify what was taken from Tyranids..
Close combat Biomorphs are no longer applied to all CC attacks, instead you choose which ONE weapon applies to any attack..
Losing Scything talons ability to reroll 1's forces you to run other biomorphs on units that only have scything talons to start
Losing access to ANY other psychic powers
These 3 changes alone are painful enough... but STREAMLINING the cost of biomorphs has destroyed some models more than anything. Those models that could get Regeneration for 20-25, or adrenal glands for 5-10 are now punished, and for the sake of not wanting to take extreme measures against my own custom Tyranid Prime I will ignore how this destroys him as a feasible model alone.
We lost not one, or two, or even three but FOUR units within the codex, with little to replace them. All FMC suffer from the same problem, everyone else has skyfire EXCEPT tyranids, and of WE get shot we have a chance to fall out of the sky. No durability added in, it becomes a game of "when does a stray bullet knock me out of the sky".
Tyrants were nerfed in the means of Old Adversary, no longer STARTING with bone sword and lash whip but now having to spend 20 POINTS to take them, no way of getting 2+ armor.. I mean yes making Tyrant guard autopass look out sir rolls is amazing, but again... game full of ID and ap 2-3.
I'll ignore the Tervigon's existance for the same reason as the Tyranid prime.
Old one eye and death leaper are intersting as HQ, except.... no synapse = not going to be used. Synapse is too mandatory now.
Troops are still as per standard.. everything's points have pretty much evened out to be the exact same, except for Rippers which they should white out of the codex if they're just going to insult us with them, and INCREASING the cost of a Broodlord, and scything talons while taking away their ability, and forcing the BL to take the same power every time...
Elites are again more of the same, Hive guard shouldn't have gone up in price, though getting adrenal glands IS nice. Lictors are a bit more viable now with infiltrade to not bring them in via DS but instead use them as a turn 1 locator beacon. Zoanthropes..... heh... I'm sure I'm not alone saying id rather roll 3 rolls and get 3 saves with 3 shots than 1 set of rolls with 3 shots. Venomthropes got better, point blank easy. Surprisingly so did Pyrovores, but their still useless. Haruspex.... will NEVER see use. it's a weaker old one eye that is more fragile than old one eye, has less attacks, and with an odd number of attacks, no extras, and WS 3, he might hit once a round and MIGHT get the second attack. mandatory adrenal glands to try and get most things across the field.
Fast, Shrikes went down in price with upgrades going up... enough said. Raveners are still the same, except terror is stupidly overpriced. Sky slashers... see ripper requirement for whiteout. Gargoyles... nerfed. up in points. annoying and needless. Harpy/crone... see flyrant issue with being FMC, only these guys have lower saves, and toughness, and worse overall stats. Only upside is MAYBE haywire missling 1 maybe 2 enemy fliers.
Heavy, Carnifex are usable again, very usable. Biovores... got nerfed HARD losing their 1/biovore in the unit, so unless you're eating up multiple heavy slots with 1 biovore at a time to try and cover the field with mines they are vastly under useful for body production. Trygon and prime lost rerolls AND an attack to go down 10 points and up the cost of regen and adrenal glands by 5 points... the ONLY plus here is if you want to dump a load of points, you can give the Prime a bio artifact to adapt its attacks but even that is just putting MORE cost to it... Mawlock got a buff and debuff in one, so dead even. Tyrannofex got the point drop it needed, but not the rupture cannon upgrade it needed, the gun should be at LEAST ap 3, not 4. Exocrine is by far the best of the new units, since if you platform it it goes to bs4, IF you platform it. Still not that good though.
Overall this codex is just... so... bad... those first 3 things I mentioned utterly crack the codex open. I very truthfully feel like I've wasted money on models and my codex to this point.
Overall this codex is just... so... bad... those first 3 things I mentioned utterly crack the codex open. I very truthfully feel like I've wasted money on models and my codex to this point.
return them, thats what a lot of people are doing to send a message, its the only language they understand
We dont have armoured shell...
...
*bangs head on desk*
*repeats*
*repeats*
*bangs head on wall*
*repeats*
*remeats*
This means we have no 2+ saves, urrrggggg!! Nbnnn!!
