Trying to focus on as few, but necessary, nerfs as possible, targeting the units that people have problems with without attacking stuff that's largely innocent.

General.
Scatter Laser: Laser Lock only works for missiles but will now work per unit rather than per model. (Would be per phase, but then I remembered that Dark Reapers are a thing that's not in need of a buff)

HQ.
Jetbike: Cost increased to 25 points. (Also addresses a pretty disgusting internal balance issue where a Jetbike used to cost the same as a jump pack or a jet pack)

Wave Serpent.
Serpent Shield: Returned to 4th edition style strength and armour bane reduction.
Serpent Shield: Shooting attack is limted to 24"

Wraithknight.
Suncannon: Heavy 1, Large Blast. (uncertain whether this is a nerf or a buff in most situations, but can no longer tripple-dip when shooting at teleporting Termies)

I'm a bit uncertain of the Wraithknight (far enough, needs more?), but I feel this will address many of the concerns people have about the codex that is not easy to write off as the whining that will accompany any army that's solid. I'll keep the necessary buffs out of this thread, but keep in mind that the codex needs those, too, since it's got quite a few problems as well (though when compared to the amount of obsolete gak you'd have to put up with in 5th edition... it's a marked improvement).

No change for Wraithknight.

The primary offenders are Wave Serpent, pseudo rending, and Jet seer.

Laser lock isn't even that soul crushing if the platforms could be engaged and destroyed by AT fire.

Still haven't faced Wraithknight. We've only got one built in our group and it isn't mine. I do see a lot of people complaining about 2+ Wraithknights. Maybe it's more a case of "it's so frustratingly boring to play against"?

I've played too many games without pseudo-rending on Shuriken Weapons. Take that away and you have to give them something significant in return. I've got a few things in mind, but that's not what this thread is about.

No, we don't have to give them anything. They still have the scatter laser, arguably the most efficient weapon in the game.

Martel732 wrote:
No, we don't have to give them anything. They still have the scatter laser, arguably the most efficient weapon in the game.

I addressed the Scatter Laser. And, yes you do have to give them something, because removing pseudo-rend will make Guardians nothing more than ablative wounds for their heavy weapon, and their heavy weapon isn't good enough to justify the point cost - meaning that the only viable troop choice would be reduced to Wraithguard, Wave Serpents (With a 65 point mandatory upgrade) and Rangers. Again.

You can't remove something from a model, make it really bad, and then point at another and say "that one is good". That's how bad internal balance is achieved. That's how a bad and unfun codex is written.

 Mahtamori wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
No, we don't have to give them anything. They still have the scatter laser, arguably the most efficient weapon in the game.

I addressed the Scatter Laser. And, yes you do have to give them something, because removing pseudo-rend will make Guardians nothing more than ablative wounds for their heavy weapon, and their heavy weapon isn't good enough to justify the point cost - meaning that the only viable troop choice would be reduced to Wraithguard, Wave Serpents (With a 65 point mandatory upgrade) and Rangers. Again.

You can't remove something from a model, make it really bad, and then point at another and say "that one is good". That's how bad internal balance is achieved. That's how a bad and unfun codex is written.

The scatter laser is broken WITHOUT laser lock, so you didn't really address it. I don't think you understand just how OP Eldar really are.

Make the Wave Serpents shield one shot and 12" range...burn it and the save is also lost

Need something to make Banshees actaully playable - maybe give the Wave Serpent Assault Vehicle

 Mr Morden wrote:
Make the Wave Serpents shield one shot and 12" range...burn it and the save is also lost

Need something to make Banshees actaully playable - maybe give the Wave Serpent Assault Vehicle

That's cool. I'm for any list getting anything that makes assault more viable.

If I'm playing against Eldar and I see two or three Wraithknights across from me, I'm generally quite happy. Unless I'm fielding an army of 2+ saves, which I won't be. More points spend on Wraithknights is less points spent on the real tough nuts of the codex, such as Wave Serpents

Wraithknights really aren't that good, and certainly aren't in need of a nerf. It's a good unit, yes, but the nerf bat should be aimed elsewhere.

 Mahtamori wrote:

General.
Scatter Laser: Laser Lock only works for missiles but will now work per unit rather than per model. (Would be per phase, but then I remembered that Dark Reapers are a thing that's not in need of a buff)

Meh... This isn't really needed.

 Mahtamori wrote:

Wave Serpent.
Serpent Shield: Returned to 4th edition style strength and armour bane reduction.
Serpent Shield: Shooting attack is limted to 24"

Reduce the range of the shooting attack to 6" and make the Wave Serpent 90 points

 Mahtamori wrote:

Wraithknight.
Suncannon: Heavy 1, Large Blast. (uncertain whether this is a nerf or a buff in most situations, but can no longer tripple-dip when shooting at teleporting Termies)

Nobody takes the suncannon anyways so this change is unneeded. Just reduce the number of Wounds the Wraithknight has to 4 and remove Fearless.

Also, I would add the following changes too:
- All Phoenix Lords have Eternal warrior
- Farseers and Spiritseers cost +15 points, Warlocks cost +5 points
- Windrider Guardians cost 20ppm
- Howling Banshees can charge out of their transport vehicle (addition to their Acrobatic special rule)
- Fire Dragons cost decreased to 20ppm
- Both the Crimson Hutner and the Hemlock Wraithfighter cost ~20 points less
- Drop the points cost of the Falcon to 110 points

You know that all phoenix lords have Eternal Warrior already, right?

 B0B MaRlEy wrote:
You know that all phoenix lords have Eternal Warrior already, right?

I do now !

People are getting really complicated with all their fixes here. I say keep it as simple as possible.

Wave Serpents: Make the shield shot once use only, and you lose the shield bonus permanently for doing so. This IS supposed to be a tactical game, right? I'm all for making things tactical choices rather than "lol i beat u" because your stuff just automatically hits with strength a bajillion every turn.

Jetbikes for HQs: It's really silly how it's an auto-include on every HQ unit that can take one. You mean it's better than a space marine bike, arguably more necessary for the units that can take it (t4 from t3 is super huge) AND I can take it for 5 less points? Herpaderp giev. GIEV NAO.

That's really all I've got. I am okay with the psuedo rending on shuriken weapons because all the units fielding them are squishy as hell and have itty bitty tiny range so they only really get one turn to shoot before dying horrible extreme deaths, or they simply have access to better weapon options anyway.

Wave serpents need a nerf. Or point increase. Also increased cover must act like ig equivalent - you get stealth if you haven't moved. So that you can't just fly across the board with that almost invulnerable vehicle that's also a transport. And nerf offensive capasities of a shield a bit. The thing is a solely existence of wave serpents changes meta too hard. Cause if you ain't got ignore cover and volume of fire than you literally can't do a thing to them. Catch them in mellee? With such mobility and other shooty stuff running around?

Wraithknights need to be changed a bit imo. t8 is a threshhold that makes it gamechanging again. If an opponent goes mass marines (that's actually one of the reasons noone goes this fun lists anymore) he can't do a thing to a wraithknight with it's t8. I'd say it's better off with t7 and built in 5++ instead. It allready has exceptional mobility and cc capability for it's point cost.

Wraithlords on the other hand could get 4 wounds but t6, 5++ and a bit point decrease - i think it'd be a fair deal to have a gun and anti-charge platform with a scatter laser + lance for around 150 pts.

Warp spiders should have a bit point increase for what they do.

Banshees need a buff. It's actually a general ruleset that makes them weak but i think that acrobatic should increase their movement to 9' and a slight bit point decrease (-1 not more). Other than that - an assault transport could be great but there's just nothing apropriate atm.

Eldar psy powers are too overwhelmingly good. They must be but they need to be more expensive to get than a cheapo farseer riding the backfield. Or probably reduced effective range would be good.

And what the heck: Eldar + Dark eldar battle brothers?!!

 koooaei wrote:

Wraithknights need to be changed a bit imo. t8 is a threshhold that makes it gamechanging again. If an opponent goes mass marines (that's actually one of the reasons noone goes this fun lists anymore) he can't do a thing to a wraithknight with it's t8. I'd say it's better off with t7 and built in 5++ instead. It allready has exceptional mobility and cc capability for it's point cost.

T8 is Rhino-level resilience, so hardly game-breaking IMHO. You don't see people dropping their all-bolter lists just because Rhino spam is a thing right?

T8 is closer to AV12 equivalent, S8 needs 4's to damage. The key difference is that a Wraithknight has effectively 6 HPs and a constant 3+ save, which is why it is costed closer to a Land Raider than a Hellhound... They don't need many changes at all tbh, the biggest change I would make to them is to make them 200pts base with Sword and Shield, and then you can pay for any combination of weaponry (so Suncannon + Sword or Wraithcannon + Shield for example).

The Serpent just needs the Shield balanced out, by itself Laser Lock isn't overpowered because there isn't that much that can make use of it. Most other units only have one other weapon to link, and its usually less effective overall than two of the same weapon. I still have this theory that the 0 on the end of the range for the Shield was a typo at some point (based on the fluff it is described as a short range weapon) and GW just ran with it. Tbh I don't think you would see Serpents used at all if the Shield was range 6", but somewhere around 24" would be ok I think.

Ignoring some points tweaks (Jetbikes and Jetbikes for characters being good examples) a few other ideas:
- Banshees need some serious help. A proper assault transport would be good, but otherwise you have to let them assault of a transport AND GIVE THEM GRENADES.
- More thought needs to be put in to the combos you can pull with psychic powers if you keep them together (Warlocks mostly) rather than spread them through the army. Clarify that nothing stacks, maybe limit the armour save power to only infantry. Part of the JetCouncil will be fixed if the Baron + other Dark Eldar gets changed around though. I really wish Warlocks would get Ld9 (they are Battle Leaders, so you would assume they are more experienced than a Militia Guardian) but that would definitely require a points jump with the current batch of powers.
- Wraithfighter gets its own special psychic power which it can actually use the turn it shows up (basically just a shooting version of what it has already would be good). Also change the Heavy D Scythe to Torrent (i.e make them better than normal D Scythes not worse) and it will scare the crap out of infantry (the same way the Crimson Hunter scares the crap out of fliers) but its still going to be made of paper so its not going to be OP.

Overall I think Eldar need some of the least work of any codex, Serpents and Psychic stuff needs some nerfs and Banshees and the Wraithfighter need some buffs but the rest of the codex is actually pretty solid.

To balance the Serpents I'd remove the ability for them to have the Holofield, as it would interfere with the Serpent Shield. And decrease the range/shots on the shield when used.

Make Acrobatic read: "A unit with Acrobatic treats their transport as an Assault Vehicle" so Banshees can be placed in a Serpent/Firestorm/Falcon and assault out of it.

Give Phoenix Lords all Invuln Saves and increase the STR on some of their close combat weapons.

Jetbikes. Make it so models with Jetbikes can only join and be joined by other models with Jetbikes. No more Baron, one DS fixed to be just rerollable 2+ on Cover...which a lot of lists can ignore(since this is a Codex fix, I'd rather just see a blanket rule on re-rollable saves never being greater than 4+ on the reroll).

Give Storm Guardian's Acrobatic with the above rule.

Falcon needs a points decrease.

Swooping Hawks need a points decrease.

Autarchs need more functionality that doesn't just make them a high points cost, slightly more effective Eldar. Perhaps Exarch powers that can be spread to other units or the ability to make certain Aspects scoring, like we originally HOPED would happen

Wraithknights are fearsome, and rightly so, but they have never made me feel like I wasn't in the game.

Make the Jetseer council illegal. Just remove this unit. It doesn't need to exist and 2+ rerollable shouldn't be in the game. Warlocks should be unit leaders, not a deathstar.

Nerf the Wave Serpent. A lot. But give it assault with transporters or something. I'm fine with that. Give the banshees a new lease on life.

Pseudo rending and battle focus are fine, but the models with these abilities are undercosted; maybe a few minor points adjustments are in order.

Keep in mind one thing about the knight. If a weapon is strong enough to effectively damage it, then it will bypass it's armor.

Get rid of the WS cover ignoring shield shot thingy and it all balances on its own. Not sure why that ability was added to the WSs. It was completely unnecessary.

 Deuce11 wrote:
Get rid of the WS cover ignoring shield shot thingy and it all balances on its own. Not sure why that ability was added to the WSs. It was completely unnecessary.

Jetseer councils are still cracked.

 AtoMaki wrote:
Reduce the range of the shooting attack to 6" and make the Wave Serpent 90 points

Ehh... the changes to Wave Serpents were:
Shield started shooting
Shield's defence got situationally better
Price on Starcannon and Brightlance went down to levels where they are worth taking
Price on Eldar Missile Launcher went up to a level where it's not worth taking
+1BS

Price wasn't really touched and I can't say that the old Wave Serpent was bad. Overpriced, absolutely, but you really needed to pick the model apart for analysis to see this - which is always the case for a model that allows very high tactical flexibility. It wasn't far off it's price mark, though.

I'd say that the Wave Serpent, if you completely remove the shield shooting, isn't far off the mark for a good price. Maybe a bit inexpensive, even.

Also, I would add the following changes too:
- All Phoenix Lords have Eternal warrior
- Farseers and Spiritseers cost +15 points, Warlocks cost +5 points
- Windrider Guardians cost 20ppm
- Howling Banshees can charge out of their transport vehicle (addition to their Acrobatic special rule)
- Fire Dragons cost decreased to 20ppm
- Both the Crimson Hutner and the Hemlock Wraithfighter cost ~20 points less
- Drop the points cost of the Falcon to 110 points

Farseer cost: I play with Farseers a lot, but on foot, I have some problems making them work properly unless I play some sort of gunline army. I find them generally unattractive the more I play with them and long for a decent model to use as Autarch.
Spiritseer: these are good, but not for their own function. I find overall that I can get better price:performance out of them than Farseers
Warlocks: I don't take these anymore. They are horrible and terribly overpriced. I have never, ever, used a Warlock as anything other than handicap for my opponent.

Psychers: In conclution, no. Their foot-slogging modes are unattractive, meaning it's their jetbike models that needs to be nerfed. Suggestion in OP increased THAT version by 10 points for all of them.

Howling Banshees: buffs are off topic However, I will say this, that Eldar melee is dysfunctional. If you mechanize your anti-power armour, you need to mechanize your anti-terminator and anti-horde units as well so you can't selectively give Banshees the ability that Harlequin and Scorpions also need.
Fire Dragons: buffs are off topic I haven't played them enough since release to gauge their new worth. I feel I may be surprised and would for now take the stance that they are fine (Tactical Marine Fine™ ).
Crimson Hunter: I feel this model is roughly where it should be. It dies to Bolters so you really need to figure out where to put it. Again, though, buffs are off topic.
Wraithfighter: This model is sooo bad. There's too many models that are immune to it's effect that it's not worth even looking at. Needs to be redefined.
Falcons: Well... buffs are off topic, but I don't think a price drop to a level that represents their value will make them played unless you also make them DT

 Deuce11 wrote:
Get rid of the WS cover ignoring shield shot thingy and it all balances on its own. Not sure why that ability was added to the WSs. It was completely unnecessary.

Because the Wave Serpent comes from fluff. It's a heavy assault transport that was introduced in the anals of 40k history and for the longest of time existed as a semi-superheavy transport in Epic. It really did have a nasty shield shot there, but then again it existed in a rules subset where titans were more or less your mandatory troop choice. If I don't recall completely wrong, the Wave Serpent could also transport more than any Land Raider could in Epic, but I may have that confused with a different vehicle.

Martel732 wrote:
Wraithknights are fearsome, and rightly so, but they have never made me feel like I wasn't in the game.

Make the Jetseer council illegal. Just remove this unit. It doesn't need to exist and 2+ rerollable shouldn't be in the game. Warlocks should be unit leaders, not a deathstar.

In 3rd edition you couldn't buy Jetbikes for Farseers "they are far too old and proud to go scooting about on jetbikes" or something like that was written in the codex.

Nerf the Wave Serpent. A lot. But give it assault with transporters or something. I'm fine with that. Give the banshees a new lease on life.

Pseudo rending and battle focus are fine, but the models with these abilities are undercosted; maybe a few minor points adjustments are in order.

Please elaborate on the last part. I'm Ulthwé at heart so I sort of hold my Guardians sacrosanct, but if I were forced to remove pseudo-rending from somewhere I'd remove it from Warp Spiders. I think their +str mechanic is nice, but don't feel the rending part actually needs to be on their weapon, and would perhaps expand on the strength gain based on initiative instead.

 koooaei wrote:
And what the heck: Eldar + Dark eldar battle brothers?!!

Lots of threads about this in fluff forums. That's one of very few Battle Brother unions that makes sense in 40k. People just need to pay attention to the fluff a bit more, and I don't mean the fluff written by authors that can't handle the scheming intelligent alien - which is admittedly hard.

Howling Banshees: buffs are off topic However, I will say this,

If you reduce the range of the Wave serpants shield shooting to 12" and make it one shot but also make it an assault vehicle to balance it and Howling Banshees its all part of the quest to balance Eldar properely .

I wish all these threads just didn't turn into unreasonable butthurt fests, I get it the serpent is crazy strong, half the shots, or some such but to neuter a 120+ Pts transport is ludicrous, if that's done I want vendettas, annihilation barges , and storm ravens treated the same way

If the wraithknight is to be changed both the riptide and dreadknight need to be redone aswell as they are atleast on the same level of offense

I can agree with the warlock council, but not on the form of destroying a already expensive ld 8 psyker, 2++ reroll should be solved through actual rules so things like screamerstar and anything else of that level stop exsisting, it's just anti fun, I'd much rather have ld9 warlocks that actually function as real squad leaders

If people seriously complain about blade storm on things like guardians with 12 inch range???? where's the complaints about tesla ? This is how you know this thread is butthurt and not actual real minds congregating, this edition isn't about ignoring saves it's about forcing them over and over again, until your dead

Laser lock is fine only reason it makes such a big deal with people is the after mentioned serpent, only thing it effects besides is guardians and if 18- 24 inch range is your issue ..on 9 points veteran guardsmen stats well.... You should probably be surfing the tactics thread

You can't benefit from Laser Lock with Guardians. Only Wave Serpent, Wraithknight, War Walker, Vyper and Falcon can benefit from Laser Lock.

And yes, I do agree that the game needs proper active errata.

Only reason I wouldn't advocate removing the shield's shooting entirely is that the shield is meant to be able to shoot according to fluff. (And that the Wave Serpent is the only DT and it would be ridiculously expensive in that capacity if priced according to it's performance)

 Arthas367 wrote:
I wish all these threads just didn't turn into unreasonable butthurt fests, I get it the serpent is crazy strong, half the shots, or some such but to neuter a 120+ Pts transport is ludicrous, if that's done I want vendettas, annihilation barges , and storm ravens treated the same way

If the wraithknight is to be changed both the riptide and dreadknight need to be redone aswell as they are atleast on the same level of offense

Agreed sort out these models as well............half shots is not enough. One shot shield gun at 12" range but Assault vehicle would make for a better game IMO

 Arthas367 wrote:
I wish all these threads just didn't turn into unreasonable butthurt fests, I get it the serpent is crazy strong, half the shots, or some such but to neuter a 120+ Pts transport is ludicrous, if that's done I want vendettas, annihilation barges , and storm ravens treated the same way

If the wraithknight is to be changed both the riptide and dreadknight need to be redone aswell as they are atleast on the same level of offense

I can agree with the warlock council, but not on the form of destroying a already expensive ld 8 psyker, 2++ reroll should be solved through actual rules so things like screamerstar and anything else of that level stop exsisting, it's just anti fun, I'd much rather have ld9 warlocks that actually function as real squad leaders

If people seriously complain about blade storm on things like guardians with 12 inch range???? where's the complaints about tesla ? This is how you know this thread is butthurt and not actual real minds congregating, this edition isn't about ignoring saves it's about forcing them over and over again, until your dead

Laser lock is fine only reason it makes such a big deal with people is the after mentioned serpent, only thing it effects besides is guardians and if 18- 24 inch range is your issue ..on 9 points veteran guardsmen stats well.... You should probably be surfing the tactics thread

Stormravens are already marginal. Vendetta, however, do kick total butt. I have never once complained about guardians, other than that maybe they should cost 1 more point for pseudorending on a BS 4 model.

Why is everyone so obsessed with getting Banshees an assault vehicle? The Serpent just doesn't feel like an assault vehicle. Perhaps give Banshees something else?

The Serpent needs a nerf, definitely. I've posted a few ideas elsewhere. A lot of these ideas neuter the *only* DT Eldar have, the only transport in the codex that can handle more than 6 men. It makes the Devilfish look cheap.

Someone suggested to treat the range as a typo, and give the gun a 6" range. Brilliant! I think that accomplishes exactly what we need. Makes it an oh-crap move like it should be. We should also see a ton of other turrets on the Serpent.

Pseudo rending and scatter lasers seem fine - we pay for them - but jetseer council can get rather rough.

For Banshees, how about giving them the ability to charge after running? Just think about what that would allow...

Banshees REALLY need assault grenades too. Serpent Shield range should be 6~12 in, max. Autarch should have stuff like Path of the Avenger, or Path of the Banshee, something that buffs that type of unit.

Lucarikx

Martel732 wrote:
Warlocks should be unit leaders, not a deathstar.

Well, it seems I'm the only one running a Seer Council on foot but I can't figure out, why this unit should be dissolved. The Warlocks function as a bodyguard/council/what have you now which is in the fluff canon. The only issue is the horrendously low price on the Jetbikes option. Bump it up to 25-30 points for Farseers and Warlocks (because they do profit so much more of it than an Autarch).

Bharring wrote:
Why is everyone so obsessed with getting Banshees an assault vehicle? The Serpent just doesn't feel like an assault vehicle. Perhaps give Banshees something else?
...

Because not only are Wave Serpents currently very overpowered but if you not only reduce the Cheese Shield but you actually give something back whilst also making another unit viable that's got to be a good thing - hasn't it?

Suite wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
Warlocks should be unit leaders, not a deathstar.

Well, it seems I'm the only one running a Seer Council on foot but I can't figure out, why this unit should be dissolved. The Warlocks function as a bodyguard/council/what have you now which is in the fluff canon. The only issue is the horrendously low price on the Jetbikes option. Bump it up to 25-30 points for Farseers and Warlocks (because they do profit so much more of it than an Autarch).

Putting them on foot or making bikes prohibitively expensive seems like a good compromise. I admittedly truly despise the seer council as I've been fighting it for three editions now.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Mr Morden wrote:

Bharring wrote:
Why is everyone so obsessed with getting Banshees an assault vehicle? The Serpent just doesn't feel like an assault vehicle. Perhaps give Banshees something else?
...

Because not only are Wave Serpents currently very overpowered but if you not only reduce the Cheese Shield but you actually give something back whilst also making another unit viable that's got to be a good thing - hasn't it?

Despite most my negative posts, I'm all about making EVERY unit viable in EVERY list. I have no problem with assault buffs and making banshees a "thing" again. But that means the other choices have to be made not auto-takes.

Scatter Lasers I think are just fine how they've been implemented. As was posted before, there are only a handful of units in the codex that can take advantage of the Laser Lock rule.

I'm surprised some people are advocating for such an extreme nerf to the Wave Serpent. I agree it's probably a bit too powerful, but knock it down too much, and you've thrown the internal balance of the codex completely off-base.

I also think the Wraithknight is just fine where it is. In the world we live in where the Riptide is only 180 points, a 240 point Wraithknight seems fairly on-target. Nerfing the T of the Wraithknight to 7 doesn't make a lot of sense either, since you've got T8 Wraithlords.

Here'd be my suggestions:

HQ:
Avatar points reduced to 170
Other than Eldred, most of the other Phoenix Lords could use a 15-20 point reduction, IMO. I'm not going to go through all of them.

Powers:
Fortune: If a unit fails a saving throw, a unit with Fortune may re-roll the failed save. However the dice roll needed for a successful save on the re-roll is always 4+. This 4+ save cannot be modified in any way. (Basically this rule change removes 2++ and 3++ saves, changing them to a 2+, 4+ or a 3+, 4+. It would also have the side benefit of allowing a 6+, 4+, or 5+, 4+) I understand this rule change would be pretty controversial, considering other Codexes have methods of getting 2++ saves that have not been FAQed. I would honestly prefer that Games Workshop FAQ the BRB to state that anytime a reroll is granted, a success on the re-roll can never be more than a 4+.

Troops:
Serpent Shield change to 36" range.

Elite:
Harlequin: reduced by 2ppm to 16
Howling Banshee: Furious Charge, Acrobatic special rule also allows Howling Banshees to charge the turn they disembark from a Transport (thanks to another poster for this idea!)

Fast Attack:
Crimson Hunter: Vector Hunter grants a 5+ Jink Save at all times.
Hemlock Wraithfighter: (I don't even... ugh) The best I can come up with besides completely scrapping all the rules for this is to just give it a 4+ Invulnerable Save as if it was a Warlock. The fighter is so bad I don't think anyone would complain.

Heavy Support:
Falcon: Either decrease points by 20, or make Turret weapons twin-linked (cost of Falcon is not aligned with that of any of the other grav tanks)
Wraithknight: New special rule - Wraithknight may fire up to four weapons in the shooting phase, at -1 BS. Wraithknight may not fire Overwatch in the following turn.

"I'm surprised some people are advocating for such an extreme nerf to the Wave Serpent. I agree it's probably a bit too powerful, but knock it down too much, and you've thrown the internal balance of the codex completely off-base. "

Play against them some more. Frankly, I don't care about the internal balance of Eldar when we have codices like CSM running around.

A 20 point drop in the Falcon would make a significant drop in the Serpent's shooting less crazy. Shouldn't the Falcon be the better gunboat?

Note: I had put my propsed changes here:
http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/568278.page

Although I think that needs an update. Treating the Serpent Shield's range as 6 (or even 12) seems like such a great solution.

Troops: Serpent Shield change to 36" range.

Won't change anything - its still broken. Range 12" may make it palatable and even better if its one shot

Remember, at 12" or less, the Serpent should be toast next round if it's hitting something important. Anything s4 or higher will eat the Serpent in melee (and the shield does nothing in melee anyways). Sacrificing a Serpent (145pts kitted, not counting the unit) for one round of shooting the shield sounds.. desperate...

Bharring wrote:
Remember, at 12" or less, the Serpent should be toast next round if it's hitting something important. Anything s4 or higher will eat the Serpent in melee (and the shield does nothing in melee anyways). Sacrificing a Serpent (145pts kitted, not counting the unit) for one round of shooting the shield sounds.. desperate...

I want to see the Eldar in desperate straits from time to time. Better than "LOL, turn 3, you've got no models left!".

Bharring wrote:
Remember, at 12" or less, the Serpent should be toast next round if it's hitting something important. Anything s4 or higher will eat the Serpent in melee (and the shield does nothing in melee anyways). Sacrificing a Serpent (145pts kitted, not counting the unit) for one round of shooting the shield sounds.. desperate...

Considering it's a shield fired as an ad hoc weapon I'd say 12" sound about right.

As the other poster said, a "Weapon" that causes an Eldar hover tank to have to maneuver within 12" to use isn't much of a weapon. You're pretty much guaranteeing that the Wave Serpent will be destroyed next turn. If you'd turn the Serpent Shield into a "Sacrificial Lamb" weapon of last resort, then I'd expect an appropriate power boost to the shield or a point drop from the Wave Serpent. Honestly making the Serpent Shield 12" would simply mean that no Eldar player would use it.

There are many other things you could do to "fix" the Serpent Shield. Personally I think a range reduction to 36" so that the Wave Serpent must at least be within long-weapons range of whatever it is shooting at is a pretty good change. It means the Wave Serpent can't fire the Shield with impunity from across the table. However, Fire Prisms have 60" range as well, and I don't see anyone complaining about them really.

1) Limit the number of Wave Serpents that can be taken as Dedicated Transports to 3 per detachment.
2) Reduce the number of shots from the Serpent Shield to D3+1
3) Remove the "Ignores Cover" special rule.
4) Make "Firing" the Serpent Shield an upgrade that must be paid 20 points for. So a normal "Naked" Wave Serpent comes with a Serpent Shield that can never be fired. It's a simple transport that ignores most penetrating hits. You can convert it to more of a "Battle tank" with an upgrade. This would allow an Eldar player to still have access to inexpensive and reliable transports for Guardians and Dire Avengers, but increase the cost of more offensive loadouts.

Personally, I don't think the Serpent Shield is really that bad unless you're facing an army of 4 or 5 of them. The weapon is extremely luck-based.

Murrdox wrote:
As the other poster said, a "Weapon" that causes an Eldar hover tank to have to maneuver within 12" to use isn't much of a weapon. You're pretty much guaranteeing that the Wave Serpent will be destroyed next turn. If you'd turn the Serpent Shield into a "Sacrificial Lamb" weapon of last resort, then I'd expect an appropriate power boost to the shield or a point drop from the Wave Serpent. Honestly making the Serpent Shield 12" would simply mean that no Eldar player would use it.

It's not a weapon though, it's a shield. It's even in the name. It's purpose, which it does very well, is to allow Wave Serpents to not suck, unlike most other transports in the game.

How about Range 12" with the same stat line - and any unit which is assaulting the unit hit by a Shield counts and having disembarked from an assault vehicle (even if the Shield hit was from a different vehicle).

Honestly, 90% of what I've seen in this thread is complaining about serpent shields. As an avid mech-dar player for years now, I can say its not all that great. Its not a gamewinner. I, for one, am glad for something with over 36" range.

Either that, or some of you guys suck at rolling your armor from ap- weapons.


One thing that should be replaced is Death Mission. It is by far the worst psychic power. It gives the enemy a free VP (2 if he is the warlord), and stat boosts that a psyker shouldn't have to use.

"Either that, or some of you guys suck at rolling your armor from ap- weapons. "

Even with average rolls, Eldar can kill 15+ marines from 36". AP - weapons are just fine if you generate huge amounts of wounds.

You'd need over 10 Serpents to kill 15 Marines in one round with just the shield..... (4.5 avg shots, 8/9 hit, 5/6 wound, 1/3 fail armor saves - works out to 15/14ths, or slightly over 1 dead per shield...)

Fluffwise, using the shield is a powerfull oh crap button. It should be very risky, which makes the shorter range (12 or 6) even better.

And please don't cap them at 3! One of the reasons I wish they were needed is so that I could take more of them and still have a fun game!

I'm throwing in scatterlasers. I know they are AP 6, but they contribute greatly to the volume of fire. The shields' real trick is pounding AV 11-13 and FMCs after being twin linked.

Da_Boss wrote:

One thing that should be replaced is Death Mission. It is by far the worst psychic power. It gives the enemy a free VP (2 if he is the warlord), and stat boosts that a psyker shouldn't have to use.

Death mission is hilarious and I love it, and it's doubly hilarious on Eldrad because he's got the only Force Weapon in the codex. Besides, 1 power that is sub-par on a table where every other power is Captain Insane-O is fine. At WORST, you primaris power out to what is a very quality primaris power.

Da_Boss wrote:
Honestly, 90% of what I've seen in this thread is complaining about serpent shields. As an avid mech-dar player for years now, I can say its not all that great. Its not a gamewinner. I, for one, am glad for something with over 36" range.

Either that, or some of you guys suck at rolling your armor from ap- weapons.

One thing that should be replaced is Death Mission. It is by far the worst psychic power. It gives the enemy a free VP (2 if he is the warlord), and stat boosts that a psyker shouldn't have to use.

How about other people having a fun game? Or is it just your army/fun that matters?

60" range, ignores cover, pinning on a weapons platform that still gets a dodge save as well - usually boosted by holo fields - yeah that's fun to face - especially when there are many of them.

I sooo love driving towards a field of Wave Serpants in the far distance in Rhinos or equivalent and watching them all crumple miles away............what a fun way to play

Its the usual problem - there are some units that need reducing in power, others that need boosting - but some people just want to keep their super weapons and win.

 Mr Morden wrote:

Da_Boss wrote:
Honestly, 90% of what I've seen in this thread is complaining about serpent shields. As an avid mech-dar player for years now, I can say its not all that great. Its not a gamewinner. I, for one, am glad for something with over 36" range.

Either that, or some of you guys suck at rolling your armor from ap- weapons.

One thing that should be replaced is Death Mission. It is by far the worst psychic power. It gives the enemy a free VP (2 if he is the warlord), and stat boosts that a psyker shouldn't have to use.

How about other people having a fun game? Or is it just your army/fun that matters?

60" range, ignores cover, pinning on a weapons platform that still gets a dodge save as well - usually boosted by holo fields - yeah that's fun to face - especially when there are many of them.

I sooo love driving towards a field of Wave Serpants in the far distance in Rhinos or equivalent and watching them all crumple miles away............what a fun way to play

Its the usual problem - there are some units that need reducing in power, others that need boosting - but some people just want to keep their super weapons and win.

You left out how it was a one time use item, that severely depletes the units survivability once it is fired.

If your going to address something, make sure you bring everything to the table.

I may have ended up on the opposite side of the table to Martel several times recently but some of what he's saying here is true.

The Serpent is a little too good for it's points. With Scatter Lasers and Cannon (how I run mine) it will put out:

4 Twin linked S6, from the Scatters = 3.56 hits
3 Twin Linked S6, from the Cannon = 2.67 hits (These Pseudo-Rend of course)
4 (average) Twin Linked S7 from the shield = 3.56

That's 8.16 wounds on anyone with T4 or less done while moving 6" a turn at 24" or it can just fire the Shield and Scatter for 5.19 with a 12" move at 36".

As such 15 marines is 6 Serpents, less with rends.

By itself this is good (not crazy, but good) but look at the strengths of those shots, 7 S6's and 4 S7's, it will also hp to death light vehicles and flyers while remaining invulnerable to S5 or less and packing a 5+ or 4+ cover save. It's a punishing volume of fire that can engage a multitude of targets.

I don't think it needs a massive nerfhammer but it does need a rebalance, maybe shorter range or lower strength, not 12" because at that point your Serpent (as has been mentioned) is dead meat. It wouldn't be so bad if they weren't an option in pretty much every slot as a dedicated transport. I'd happily see them cheaper and weaker and see the Falcon get a buff to make it the gunboat as at the moment they are surplus to requirement.

The Jetseer council may be great but individual Warlocks in guardian squads are god awful, I run them for fluff reasons but they are so bad. Any solution would need to have differing effect on the two groups for real balance.

Acrobatics making vehicles assault is something i preyed would be in the dex and wasn't, I support that whole heartedly.

I must admit I don't really know the Wraithknight, I love the model but it is so derpily big it just feels the wrong scale for the game to me. Is the problem with it mobilty, firepower, durability? It is a shedload of points after all.

"The Serpent is a little too good for it's points. With Scatter Lasers and Cannon (how I run mine) it will put out: "

Little too good is not the exact statement I would have used, but close enough.

Agreeing just how far it is over the line will be a discussion that rages until the 7th ed Eldar dex drops

They will however kill 1/4 to 1/3 of their points in marines every turn while remaining mobile, can be spammed due to their slot and are capable of engaging all but the heaviest armour and can on top of all that put out enough shots to bang up hordes. I love the idea of elite super high tech Eldar but either it's potency is too great or it's points too low. One of those points needs tweaking and it's probably easiest if it was potency.

Edit: More to say.

 djones520 wrote:

 Mr Morden wrote:

Da_Boss wrote:
Honestly, 90% of what I've seen in this thread is complaining about serpent shields. As an avid mech-dar player for years now, I can say its not all that great. Its not a gamewinner. I, for one, am glad for something with over 36" range.

Either that, or some of you guys suck at rolling your armor from ap- weapons.

One thing that should be replaced is Death Mission. It is by far the worst psychic power. It gives the enemy a free VP (2 if he is the warlord), and stat boosts that a psyker shouldn't have to use.

How about other people having a fun game? Or is it just your army/fun that matters?

60" range, ignores cover, pinning on a weapons platform that still gets a dodge save as well - usually boosted by holo fields - yeah that's fun to face - especially when there are many of them.

I sooo love driving towards a field of Wave Serpants in the far distance in Rhinos or equivalent and watching them all crumple miles away............what a fun way to play

Its the usual problem - there are some units that need reducing in power, others that need boosting - but some people just want to keep their super weapons and win.

You left out how it was a one time use item, that severely depletes the units survivability once it is fired.

If your going to address something, make sure you bring everything to the table.

Not a range 60 " it doesn't and it still has jink and holo fields and AV12 IIRC- such a "weakly defended vehicle" ??

The suggestion is that it becomes one shot - its not currently - or not when people played against me - I'll have to look at my Codex when go home?

Make it a proper assault vehicle and maybe drop the points a bit - not a devastating killing machine fielded in hordes.......

It is not, currently, a one-use item. It doesn't seem to be one fluffwise.

At 60", its killing one marine (A little less not twin linked) a round. That is < 10% the vehicle's cost, per round. Certainly not a good ROI. There are great long-range uses for it, but Marines aren't it.

At 36", things get better, but it still wouldn't get its points back in 7 rounds shooting (4*(8/9)*(5/6)*(1/3) + 4.5*(8/9)*(5/6)*(1/3)).

Getting the damage you're talking about, it already needs to start within 30", and move 6" within 24". In the 3+ rounds the Serpent takes to get its points back, the Marines should be able to do something, but basic TACs are a bad matchup.

It is very OP, but let's not overstate it's ability. If we do that, we can't have an intelligent conversation about it.

What about the Serpent screams 'assault vehicle'? I'd love to have one, but I'm not seeing it.

I was looking at the Wave Serpent and analyzing it to try and determine how many points it should actually be worth, as-is.

It's really not all that easy.

A Predator with a lascannon turrent and sponsons costs about the same thing. You can also get two Broadsides loaded down with missiles for the same price. They put out as much-if not more firepower than the Wave Serpent is capable of.

Add about 40 more points to your average Wave Serpent cost and you've got a Riptide. If you add say 20 more points to the cost of a Wave Serpent because of the Serpent Shield, are you really 20 points away from being as awesome as a Riptide?

A naked Fire Prism overall only costs 10 more points than a naked Wave Serpent. Now, think about that for a second. Both tanks are the exact same chassis. Look at the equipment differences.

Wave Serpent: twin-linked Shuriken Cannons, Serpent Shield, 12 model transport.
Fire Prism: Prism Cannon.

The Prism Cannon is a pretty awesome gun. The Eldar Codex math is essentially saying that the Prism Cannon is worth a twin-linked S-Cannon, 12 Model Transport, the Serpent Shield, and then 10 points on top of that. If anything, I think that over-values the Prism Cannon.

The Wave Serpent probably gets a points discount, simply because Games Workshop tends to discount the costs of Troops and Troop transports compared to other FOC slots.

Really for me the issue is rending on like every unit in addition to the fact of battle focus. I'm sorry but both is crazy... they should have one or the other (the only exception being warpspiders) . Finally yes the Wave serpent shield is quite plain ridiculous I'd be happy with D3+1 shots str7 No Ignore cover. Then yes the fact jetbikes cost so little and easily decide matchups with so little as a turbo-boost across the field is plain nuts. Either they need to increase the cost of the unit or increase the minimum squad cap up to 5 so that people can't just take units of 2-3 jetbikes and score on every objective. The wraithknight should be reduced by 1 wound and I agree should lose fearless. Everything else is fine.

The Serpent doesn't cost 145 points. The least it costs is 195 or 210 points. If they were 20 points more expensive, people would STILL spam them and nothing would change. Lists that can't handle 5 Serpents won't be able to handle 4, either and lists that have no problem with them will have even less of a one. To reiterate: Making Serpents more expensive changes absolutely nothing.

What it needs is a shield with range 18" and cost 15 points less. It NEEDS to still be able to function as a DT for those that play such lists, but to actually transport stuff, not stand back and shoot. And for that, you really can't make it more expensive or otherwise no one will use it, except for Serpent spam lists.

Also, to the poster who said our psychic powers are all great except Death Mission? Really? Which one do you mean? Those horrible Warp Charge 2 Mind War and Eldritch Storm? Executioner is great? When did that happen? Fact is, we have 2 great powers and a great Primaris. The rest are utter garbage. Divination is the school that has the best powers in the game, period. And it's been given out to almost every codex like candy.

As far as Seer Councils go, just say no single Farseer can have more than 3 Warlock bodyguards. Problem solved.

 Araenion wrote:
The Serpent doesn't cost 145 points. The least it costs is 195 or 210 points. If they were 20 points more expensive, people would STILL spam them and nothing would change. Lists that can't handle 5 Serpents won't be able to handle 4, either and lists that have no problem with them will have even less of a one. To reiterate: Making Serpents more expensive changes absolutely nothing.

You're insinuating that the Wave Serpent as-is should cost as much as a MONOLITH? Really?

 Araenion wrote:

What it needs is a shield with range 18" and cost 15 points less. It NEEDS to still be able to function as a DT for those that play such lists, but to actually transport stuff, not stand back and shoot. And for that, you really can't make it more expensive or otherwise no one will use it, except for Serpent spam lists.

I could be on board with this change. I think 18" is a little harsh though. I think 36" is a good middle-ground personally. If you're within 36" to fire the shield, you're within range of most of your opponent's weapons to be counter-attacked. With a 15 point point reduction you could argue 18" though.

 Araenion wrote:
Also, to the poster who said our psychic powers are all great except Death Mission? Really? Which one do you mean? Those horrible Warp Charge 2 Mind War and Eldritch Storm? Executioner is great? When did that happen? Fact is, we have 2 great powers and a great Primaris. The rest are utter garbage. Divination is the school that has the best powers in the game, period. And it's been given out to almost every codex like candy.

Death Mission is terrible, but I actually like Mind War and Eldritch Storm. I've used Mind War successfully on a riptide before, that was really fun. I've also gotten it off against a Hive Tyrant.

"You're insinuating that the Wave Serpent as-is should cost as much as a MONOLITH? Really? "

It certainly needs to cost more or do less. Nothing else is acceptable. They are a ridiculously undercosted unit; worse than the Vendetta due to their near immortality.

Make the Wave serpent an Assault Transport.

That would be the icing on the cake...

Martel732 wrote:
"You're insinuating that the Wave Serpent as-is should cost as much as a MONOLITH? Really? "

It certainly needs to cost more or do less. Nothing else is acceptable. They are a ridiculously undercosted unit; worse than the Vendetta due to their near immortality.

I don't really think they're IMMORTAL at all... at least not much more immortal than any other Skimmer. Tau have the same issue, and some of their Skimmers are AV13, which can be even more difficult to kill.

It's worth noting that a Hammerhead costs about the same as a Wave Serpent with a Scatter Laser.

The Hammerhead can put out 4 30" S5 AP5 Ignores Cover, Twin Linked shots, on top of a 72" range S10 AP1 shot or a S6 AP4 large blast. That's pretty comparable to a Wave Serpent, and that's without any upgrades of any kind. Instead of a 72" weapon and a 30" weapon, the Wave Serpent has a 36" weapon and a 60" weapon.

Murrdox wrote:
You're insinuating that the Wave Serpent as-is should cost as much as a MONOLITH? Really?

Uh. No. I'm insinuating that you MUST buy a squad to be able to buy a Wave Serpent. So the cost of the usual loadout is 145 + 65 or 130 + 65 without Holofields. Because they are so powerful at shooting, people keep forgetting that it's meant to be primarily a transport. I play one or two Serpents at the most, because I like versatility and diversity, both of which are a plenty in our Codex. If those Serpents were 160-180 points, I wouldn't use them, which means I wouldn't use squads inside them, which means my army and the Eldar codex would be that much more bland. Nobody wants that, I think. What people want is for a DT to actually be a DT, not a HS choice with a troop tax.

Murrdox wrote:
I could be on board with this change. I think 18" is a little harsh though. I think 36" is a good middle-ground personally. If you're within 36" to fire the shield, you're within range of most of your opponent's weapons to be counter-attacked. With a 15 point point reduction you could argue 18" though.

The point is to use it as a DT for your Wraithguard, Scorpions, Avengers, Guardians, Reapers. With an 18" range shield, Serpent spam would be done for. Nobody fears 4 TL S6 AP6 shots. Without their long-range S7, Serpents are offensively as fearsome as a Chimera, This way, they'd still be able to do their main job, transporting troops to where they need to be and then start using their shields offensively, once their cargo is where it needs to be. So what if they die? They're transports, they transported, their main job is over. Then again, 145 points for a transport that's actually a transport with some mid-strength firepower thrown in, is a bit too much. So I proposed a cost reduction due to the loss of range and through that, the loss of survivability.

One other thing people forget. And that is the fact that Eldar really don't have any dedicated anti-air outside our own paper flyer. If you don't want to use a CH, you need to either have Serpents or some Warp Spiders with a Farseer Guiding them. If you take away the Serpent Shield's range, you take away it's ability to damage air. That means we even more desperately need something to kill those Drakes and Ravens, otherwise we'd again have to spam Spiders or Hunters in our lists, to even have a chance, which also leads to uninteresting lists.

So I propose you give Skyfire and/or Intercept to the Falcon's turret-mounted weapons for 15 points. Why that wasn't done in the first place, I have no idea.

Murrdox wrote:
Death Mission is terrible, but I actually like Mind War and Eldritch Storm. I've used Mind War successfully on a riptide before, that was really fun. I've also gotten it off against a Hive Tyrant.

I can't think of any situation where I'd rather have either of those instead of Prescience, Forewaring, Misfortune, Perfect Timing or Scrier's Gaze. If Farseers were limited to just Runes of Fate, they'd be somewhat decent. Since they're thankfully not, I really can't think of any situation where I'd find any RoF powers useful other than the usual suspects(Fortune, Doom and Guide).

P.S. What you said about the Hammerhead. It's a similar level of firepower, but Hammerhead isn't Fast, doesn't have Holofields, doesn't have Serpent Shield(it does have AV13, though, so that's balancing each other out, I suppose) and MOST IMPORTANTLY: Isn't a DT, so can only take 3 per detachment and if you do, you're gimping yourself by not taking other HS choices. That's the difference. If the Wave Serpent was a HS choice, it'd be a very good one, but I doubt people would think it's so OP as they do now.

Simply 'giving' the Shield Skyfire would go a long way towards balancing it, as then it would snapshot at any non-flyers(/skimmers)... Doesn't feel fluffy, but the Shield would go from killing about 1 marine/ round to about 1 every 3 rounds. I don't really like that solution (goes a long ways towards balance, but doesn't feel any more fluffy), but it would be a very strong nerf to it's shooting.. .

And do people really think it's as strong per model as the Monolith? Certainly more powerful per point, but not nearly as powerful per model.

Murrdox wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
"You're insinuating that the Wave Serpent as-is should cost as much as a MONOLITH? Really? "

It certainly needs to cost more or do less. Nothing else is acceptable. They are a ridiculously undercosted unit; worse than the Vendetta due to their near immortality.

I don't really think they're IMMORTAL at all... at least not much more immortal than any other Skimmer. Tau have the same issue, and some of their Skimmers are AV13, which can be even more difficult to kill.

It's worth noting that a Hammerhead costs about the same as a Wave Serpent with a Scatter Laser.

The Hammerhead can put out 4 30" S5 AP5 Ignores Cover, Twin Linked shots, on top of a 72" range S10 AP1 shot or a S6 AP4 large blast. That's pretty comparable to a Wave Serpent, and that's without any upgrades of any kind. Instead of a 72" weapon and a 30" weapon, the Wave Serpent has a 36" weapon and a 60" weapon.

The Hammerhand takes up Heavy Support slots, doesn't have a Shield and can't transport troops.

Think about it: you just said that it's fine that an Eldar transport has the same firepower as a Tau MBT. Do you not see anything wrong with that?

 Araenion wrote:

Murrdox wrote:
You're insinuating that the Wave Serpent as-is should cost as much as a MONOLITH? Really?

Uh. No. I'm insinuating that you MUST buy a squad to be able to buy a Wave Serpent. So the cost of the usual loadout is 145 + 65 or 130 + 65 without Holofields. Because they are so powerful at shooting, people keep forgetting that it's meant to be primarily a transport. I play one or two Serpents at the most, because I like versatility and diversity, both of which are a plenty in our Codex. If those Serpents were 160-180 points, I wouldn't use them, which means I wouldn't use squads inside them, which means my army and the Eldar codex would be that much more bland. Nobody wants that, I think. What people want is for a DT to actually be a DT, not a HS choice with a troop tax.

Murrdox wrote:
I could be on board with this change. I think 18" is a little harsh though. I think 36" is a good middle-ground personally. If you're within 36" to fire the shield, you're within range of most of your opponent's weapons to be counter-attacked. With a 15 point point reduction you could argue 18" though.

The point is to use it as a DT for your Wraithguard, Scorpions, Avengers, Guardians, Reapers. With an 18" range shield, Serpent spam would be done for. Nobody fears 4 TL S6 AP6 shots. Without their long-range S7, Serpents are offensively as fearsome as a Chimera, This way, they'd still be able to do their main job, transporting troops to where they need to be and then start using their shields offensively, once their cargo is where it needs to be. So what if they die? They're transports, they transported, their main job is over. Then again, 145 points for a transport that's actually a transport with some mid-strength firepower thrown in, is a bit too much. So I proposed a cost reduction due to the loss of range and through that, the loss of survivability.

One other thing people forget. And that is the fact that Eldar really don't have any dedicated anti-air outside our own paper flyer. If you don't want to use a CH, you need to either have Serpents or some Warp Spiders with a Farseer Guiding them. If you take away the Serpent Shield's range, you take away it's ability to damage air. That means we even more desperately need something to kill those Drakes and Ravens, otherwise we'd again have to spam Spiders or Hunters in our lists, to even have a chance, which also leads to uninteresting lists.

So I propose you give Skyfire and/or Intercept to the Falcon's turret-mounted weapons for 15 points. Why that wasn't done in the first place, I have no idea.

Murrdox wrote:
Death Mission is terrible, but I actually like Mind War and Eldritch Storm. I've used Mind War successfully on a riptide before, that was really fun. I've also gotten it off against a Hive Tyrant.

I can't think of any situation where I'd rather have either of those instead of Prescience, Forewaring, Misfortune, Perfect Timing or Scrier's Gaze. If Farseers were limited to just Runes of Fate, they'd be somewhat decent. Since they're thankfully not, I really can't think of any situation where I'd find any RoF powers useful other than the usual suspects(Fortune, Doom and Guide).

P.S. What you said about the Hammerhead. It's a similar level of firepower, but Hammerhead isn't Fast, doesn't have Holofields, doesn't have Serpent Shield(it does have AV13, though, so that's balancing each other out, I suppose) and MOST IMPORTANTLY: Isn't a DT, so can only take 3 per detachment and if you do, you're gimping yourself by not taking other HS choices. That's the difference. If the Wave Serpent was a HS choice, it'd be a very good one, but I doubt people would think it's so OP as they do now.

Great post. I agree with pretty much everything you said. I'm actually playing a game against my Tyranids friend tomorrow with the new codex, and he's probably going to bring a Crone and two flying Tyrants. I haven't dealt with that many simultaneous fliers with my Eldar before, so it'll be very interesting.

I played a game against Space Marines last week who brought a Storm Raven and a Storm Talon. My Wave Serpents were basically the only thing on the table capable of harming either of them. So I think you're right on the money about Wave Serpents being a serious part of our anti-air strategy. I wish more units besides Dark Reapers could take Missile Launchers with Flakk missiles for a reasonable price... like Vaul Support Batteries or Guardian Heavy Weapons Platforms. In my game tomorrow I'm hoping a Guided group of War Walkers will be enough to kill off his fliers, but I'm pretty worried that his fliers are so mobile, he'll have the War Walkers dead by turn 2. We shall see!

Good point about the Hammerhead not being Fast. I'd forgotten that. It's definitely worth mentioning that the Hammerhead has to remain stationary to use its full weapons compliment. Tau can get around that with Markerlights though.

Prescienced war walkers kill storm talons easily. Marine air is a pretty average build.

Martel732 wrote:
Prescienced war walkers kill storm talons easily. Marine air is a pretty average build.

Sadly I didn't have any War Walkers that game. It was a very bizarre game. My Farseer was occupied on the other side of the board Dooming and Prescience-ing Striking Scorpions and Dire Avengers who were in a never-ending combat, which at one point involved 4 whole squads. The only thing I had to take on the fliers was a Wraithlord and my Wave Serpents. That said, it was an awesome game.

I'm hoping tomorrow War Walkers will save me from the flying Tyrants.

They will. Maybe even start them in reserve. Any AV10-11 flyer and FMC is fair game for Eldar. Against AV12 flyers though, especially the Heldrake is where it gets tough. One of the reasons why Wave Serpents are so popular is due to the Drakes killing any and all of our infantry like they were butter. And we have no good 2+ characters to tank hits.

If there's anything Eldar don't do well, it's AA.

Really all thats needed is wave serpent shield back to how it was in 4th, shield 18-24" range, gains assault vehicle. Sorted. Nothing else in the eldar dex is so OP/UP that it needs significant changes. but the wave serpent really needs changing, its just abit silly, and bansheesneed an assault vehicle because t3 4+ save is laughable for a melee unit that has to footslog

Jetseer with mantle is very good, but not hilariously OP like the wave serpent. Rest of the problems are caused by the general 2++ allies probs and such

 Araenion wrote:

Also, to the poster who said our psychic powers are all great except Death Mission? Really? Which one do you mean? Those horrible Warp Charge 2 Mind War and Eldritch Storm? Executioner is great? When did that happen? Fact is, we have 2 great powers and a great Primaris. The rest are utter garbage. Divination is the school that has the best powers in the game, period. And it's been given out to almost every codex like candy.

You're right Executioner isn't great. So I missed a power in my head when I made that post rather than go look at the codex. Sue me.

Doom is incredible and I don't think I need to go into reasons why.

Eldritch Storm is a LARGE BLAST TEMPLATE (of which there are very, very few in any psychic discipline) at 24" range that at least causes a wound as long as you don't roll 1's, against everything that isn't flying. Ever roll this power against Orks, Daemonette spam, IG hordes or even other Eldar players? Huge nuke you can do every turn to demolish huge amounts of guys.

Death Mission isn't great but it is a hell of a lot of fun, especially if you bring some Eldar as allies making their mandatory HQ the Farseer. FUN. OH MY GOD WHAT A CONCEPT. Fun is not an action supported by the codex astartes, I hear.

Fortune even without being in a warlock council is one of the most broken abilities in the game so I won't touch on it.

I've seen Mind War one-shot a daemon prince, and it was easily achieved. Considering Warlocks and if you want as a backup HQ unit a spiritseer can get Embolden/Horrify, there are ways to set it up as a combo within it's own codex to shatter enemy HQs. For extra funs, I managed to get this power on my allied Farseer to my Dark Angels unit when I ran Ezekiel. All the things were being Mindwormed/Mind-warred to death and it was great fun.

Just because they aren't game breaking doesn't mean they aren't powerful and it isn't a good table. Take a deep breath and play a game for fun one of these days and see if you have any.

Oh btw: IF ONLY THERE WAS A CHEAP ARTEFACT I COULD BUY TO HELP ME OUT WITH ALL THE WC2 SPELLS. It's almost like someone realized there were several of them and gave people a way to make due...

It's too bad Eldar are totally stuck with their own psychic discipline for people who don't like the powers, though. If only Eldar could roll on Divination or Telepathy, then... then my God, can you imagine how OP Farseers would be?!


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Araenion wrote:

If there's anything Eldar don't do well, it's AA.

Compared to whom? Tau obviously win at the AA category but I mean, who else? Eldar have probably the most dangerous air-to-air unit in 6E and it's reasonably priced. They also have a cheap HQ unit that helps you attempt to make sure yours comes in later than the enemies.

Obviously everyone can field Aegis Defense Lines, but we have a unit that takes advantage of it for the purposes of AA better than a lot of other people. Dark Reapers manning an ADL give you the added benefit of making it useless to attempt evasive maneuvers, seeing as they ignore jink. Add a fast shot exarch with Eldar Missile Launcher and Flakk Missiles for the added benefit of another decent gun to shoot at the flyer. You're not bringing Dark Reapers to BE your anti-air (they are there to f*** up bikers and skimmers mostly), it's just that they can do it in a pinch. They tend to like being behind ADLs anyway because at 48" range with all their own weaponry, the cover saves vs. any long range weaponry they might eat comes in handy.

For the record, a lot of people think it's a lot of points to upgrade the exarch to be "anti-air" but in reality you're only paying 10 points. I tend to gear mine with fast shot with an Eldar Missile Launcher anyway because it's deadly to do that regardless of whether or not you think you might want to pay an extra 10 if you figure you're going to face some air.

Chaos Space Marines either have to field really expensive Havoc squads or hope their Heldrakes can Vector Strike enemy flyers to death. Space Marines have pretty good anti-air in the form of their own air units but those are about as frail as Crimson Hunters (+1 AV helps but -1 Hull Point does not), and other than that have to blow probably their most important force org slot on either tanks that are pretty cheap but somewhat ineffective AA anyways or are a really expensive Devastator Squad. Dark Angels have no good AA to speak of and so are a lot like Space Wolves in that they have to turn to Forgeworld to field anything worth taking against air units. Chaos Daemons are pretty bad against air too because they also have to rely on Vector Striking, it's just at lower strength (6) with almost all of their units you ever see fielded. They just don't really need to kill air to protect their units as much as Eldar do, I suppose.

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:

Murrdox wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
"You're insinuating that the Wave Serpent as-is should cost as much as a MONOLITH? Really? "

It certainly needs to cost more or do less. Nothing else is acceptable. They are a ridiculously undercosted unit; worse than the Vendetta due to their near immortality.

I don't really think they're IMMORTAL at all... at least not much more immortal than any other Skimmer. Tau have the same issue, and some of their Skimmers are AV13, which can be even more difficult to kill.

It's worth noting that a Hammerhead costs about the same as a Wave Serpent with a Scatter Laser.

The Hammerhead can put out 4 30" S5 AP5 Ignores Cover, Twin Linked shots, on top of a 72" range S10 AP1 shot or a S6 AP4 large blast. That's pretty comparable to a Wave Serpent, and that's without any upgrades of any kind. Instead of a 72" weapon and a 30" weapon, the Wave Serpent has a 36" weapon and a 60" weapon.

The Hammerhand takes up Heavy Support slots, doesn't have a Shield and can't transport troops.

Think about it: you just said that it's fine that an Eldar transport has the same firepower as a Tau MBT. Do you not see anything wrong with that?

Exactly right - the issue is that the Wave Serpant is now a heavily shielded, well armoured and long range artillery vehicle which also happens to carry troops - completly the opposite it what is supoposed to be.

The Codex described it as : The main troop c arrier of a craftworlds army, protected inside its sleek hull strike forces are trasnported in safety. The energy field projectors generate a rippling bow wave of forceat the front of the craft, though it can be projected outwards as a weapon IN EXTREMIS"

Lets hope GW fix in in their next FAQ update, make it shorter range and/or one shot or you fire it at short range to gain Assault vehicle. Its currently just too good.

Its extremely funny (and sad) that Eldar players are trying to justify this unit as is and even complaining that they are somehow hard done by in the AA stakes - compared to who aprt formt he Tau with who there are also major balance issues. The Eldar have air cover and AA options- much more than some armies - Adepta Sororitas - they don't get either but apparently the Eldar are the hard done by ones.................

SRSFACE:

The first part of your post is full of subjective presumptions about the game and myself as a player, so I won't touch on that.

The part about AA is true to an extent, but the problem is that the most common Flyers(Heldrakes, Vendettas, Night Scythes) are a big problem for Eldar, not just because they are hard to take down, but also because of what they do to our stuff. You can't Intercept it because we have no Intercept, so you just have to grind your teeth and hope their alpha-strike isn't so devastating it cripplies your army. So no, we don't do AA well and Flyers are a thorn in pretty much every pure Eldar list, except Serpent spam.

 Araenion wrote:
SRSFACE:

The first part of your post is full of subjective presumptions about the game and myself as a player, so I won't touch on that.

The part about AA is true to an extent, but the problem is that the most common Flyers(Heldrakes, Vendettas, Night Scythes) are a big problem for Eldar, not just because they are hard to take down, but also because of what they do to our stuff. You can't Intercept it because we have no Intercept, so you just have to grind your teeth and hope their alpha-strike isn't so devastating it cripplies your army. So no, we don't do AA well and Flyers are a thorn in pretty much every pure Eldar list, except Serpent spam.

Again they don't do AA well compared to who exactly?

You haven't noticed that what Almighty Walrus said was said by me, in greater length, just two posts above? I'm not trying to justfy the Serpent as is by denoting Eldar AA capabilities. Quite the opposite, I said that if the Serpent's Shield is gone as is, we'd need something else to compensate. And why the hell wouldn't you want more diversity in Eldar lists? Isn't that what the main argument about Eldar is about?

If you make the Seprent a decent assault unit that also makes Howling Banshees usable then that surely helps diversity.

Saying the Eldar lack AA (which they dont- esp compared to other armies) and somehow "have" to use the Serpent suggests that its yet another reason why the Serpent is overpowered as its able to be not only great artillery but AA as well?!

I'd say for the serpent shields, when they fire, they come back the next round as normal on a 4+.
Remove ignores cover, and we're in business
Add assault vehicle to the falcon, and we're getting somewhere.

The Serpent is the primary Eldar Transport - the Falcon is more speclialised so I would think it makes more sense for the Serpent to be the Assault vehicle?

 Farseer Faenyin wrote:

Jetbikes. Make it so models with Jetbikes can only join and be joined by other models with Jetbikes. No more Baron, one DS fixed to be just rerollable 2+ on Cover...which a lot of lists can ignore(since this is a Codex fix, I'd rather just see a blanket rule on re-rollable saves never being greater than 4+ on the reroll).

So because you simply don't like other people re-rolling things, you're saying that we should make everything with Twin-linked, BS9, BS10, and Master-crafted worse? Deal with it. The damage output of the Seerstar isn't exactly glorious anyway, and once they're in CC they only have the Baron's save to rely on.

Anyway, I love how people aren't simply changing the codex, they're straight up nerfing the hell out of it.

 McNinja wrote:

 Farseer Faenyin wrote:

Jetbikes. Make it so models with Jetbikes can only join and be joined by other models with Jetbikes. No more Baron, one DS fixed to be just rerollable 2+ on Cover...which a lot of lists can ignore(since this is a Codex fix, I'd rather just see a blanket rule on re-rollable saves never being greater than 4+ on the reroll).

So because you simply don't like other people re-rolling things, you're saying that we should make everything with Twin-linked, BS9, BS10, and Master-crafted worse? Deal with it. The damage output of the Seerstar isn't exactly glorious anyway, and once they're in CC they only have the Baron's save to rely on.

Anyway, I love how people aren't simply changing the codex, they're straight up nerfing the hell out of it.

It's almost as if Codex: Eldar is too strong at the moment! Who would've thought it?!

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:

 McNinja wrote:

 Farseer Faenyin wrote:

Jetbikes. Make it so models with Jetbikes can only join and be joined by other models with Jetbikes. No more Baron, one DS fixed to be just rerollable 2+ on Cover...which a lot of lists can ignore(since this is a Codex fix, I'd rather just see a blanket rule on re-rollable saves never being greater than 4+ on the reroll).

So because you simply don't like other people re-rolling things, you're saying that we should make everything with Twin-linked, BS9, BS10, and Master-crafted worse? Deal with it. The damage output of the Seerstar isn't exactly glorious anyway, and once they're in CC they only have the Baron's save to rely on.

Anyway, I love how people aren't simply changing the codex, they're straight up nerfing the hell out of it.

It's almost as if Codex: Eldar is too strong at the moment! Who would've thought it?!

I'm not saying it isn't. I'm saying that the rules within the codex are mostly sound, only a few things need to be changed, mainly the points of a few things (mainly wave serpents). For instance, why does the Serpent Shield have ignores cover? Just because?

 McNinja wrote:

 Farseer Faenyin wrote:

Jetbikes. Make it so models with Jetbikes can only join and be joined by other models with Jetbikes. No more Baron, one DS fixed to be just rerollable 2+ on Cover...which a lot of lists can ignore(since this is a Codex fix, I'd rather just see a blanket rule on re-rollable saves never being greater than 4+ on the reroll).

So because you simply don't like other people re-rolling things, you're saying that we should make everything with Twin-linked, BS9, BS10, and Master-crafted worse? Deal with it. The damage output of the Seerstar isn't exactly glorious anyway, and once they're in CC they only have the Baron's save to rely on.

Anyway, I love how people aren't simply changing the codex, they're straight up nerfing the hell out of it.

I love how some people are desperate to hang onto thier unfair advantages and see any kind of suggestion to try and re-balance as a nerf.

So can you say, hand on heart that you think Wave Seprants and re-rollable 2++ saves are fun and balanced?

Mr Morden wrote:

So can you say, hand on heart that you think Wave Seprants and re-rollable 2++ saves are fun and balanced?

So is that Serpent with a 2++ re-rollable save from a Farseer with some space magic? Cause if so that is hardly the Wave Serpents fault.

 Zakiriel wrote:

Mr Morden wrote:

So can you say, hand on heart that you think Wave Seprants and re-rollable 2++ saves are fun and balanced?

So is that Serpent with a 2++ re-rollable save from a Farseer with some space magic? Cause if so that is hardly the Wave Serpents fault.

I didn't bring up re-rollable saves - read the posts. They are broken, Wave Serpents are broken, end of.

The quesiton is valid is it not?

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:


Think about it: you just said that it's fine that an Eldar transport has the same firepower as a Tau MBT. Do you not see anything wrong with that?

With an accusation like that, it sounds like you would have gotten just as mad if he would have said: "it's fine that a current United States IFV has the same firepower as a World War I tank."

Eldar tech is so far advanced beyond the Tau to an extent that even my analogy fails to display the gross discrepancies between the two.

 Vladsimpaler wrote:

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:


Think about it: you just said that it's fine that an Eldar transport has the same firepower as a Tau MBT. Do you not see anything wrong with that?

With an accusation like that, it sounds like you would have gotten just as mad if he would have said: "it's fine that a current United States IFV has the same firepower as a World War I tank."

Eldar tech is so far advanced beyond the Tau to an extent that even my analogy fails to display the gross discrepancies between the two.

Do you think the current Wave Serpent is fair and balanced to enable good games - or as I do, not only completely at odds with the actual fluff (see previous posts) but way too powerful (and in the wrong areas) for its popints and easily availbility. Or something else?

 Vladsimpaler wrote:

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:


Think about it: you just said that it's fine that an Eldar transport has the same firepower as a Tau MBT. Do you not see anything wrong with that?

With an accusation like that, it sounds like you would have gotten just as mad if he would have said: "it's fine that a current United States IFV has the same firepower as a World War I tank."

Eldar tech is so far advanced beyond the Tau to an extent that even my analogy fails to display the gross discrepancies between the two.

You realize that much of the Tau weapon tech is more powerful than the Eldar's? Even with much of the Eldar tech being better than tau tech, the main battletank of the tau should still have more firepower than the DC of the Eldar. Tau tech is very advanced which is their main strength. They generally have more powerful, longer ranged guns than anyone else. Just because they are not 100,000YO civilization doesn't mean that they have weak technology.

 Co'tor Shas wrote:

 Vladsimpaler wrote:

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:


Think about it: you just said that it's fine that an Eldar transport has the same firepower as a Tau MBT. Do you not see anything wrong with that?

With an accusation like that, it sounds like you would have gotten just as mad if he would have said: "it's fine that a current United States IFV has the same firepower as a World War I tank."

Eldar tech is so far advanced beyond the Tau to an extent that even my analogy fails to display the gross discrepancies between the two.

You realize that much of the Tau weapon tech is more powerful than the Eldar's? Even with much of the Eldar tech being better than tau tech, the main battletank of the tau should still have more firepower than the DC of the Eldar. Tau tech is very advanced which is their main strength. They generally have more powerful, longer ranged guns than anyone else. Just because they are not 100,000YO civilization doesn't mean that they have weak technology.

No. Just no. Tau don't have more advanced tech than Eldar.

Is there a Tech plateau though ?

So certain forms of technology can only be improved to a certain point beyond which you are then just gilding the lily?

Look. I don't CARE how good something is, as LONG AS YOU PAY THE POINTS FOR IT. Eldar don't. Tau don't. Daemons don't. Other armies pay premium prices for crap. That's why every Eldar suggestion is a nerf. I would prefer the opposite. Leave Eldar, so they can't complain, and just make everyone else just as good.

Martel732 wrote:
Look. I don't CARE how good something is, as LONG AS YOU PAY THE POINTS FOR IT. Eldar don't. Tau don't. Daemons don't. Other armies pay premium prices for crap. That's why every Eldar suggestion is a nerf. I would prefer the opposite. Leave Eldar, so they can't complain, and just make everyone else just as good.

+1.

Some toning down is required though, Seer Council in particular. Otherwise power creep would be even greater than it already is.

Power creep is meaningless if every list is the same power.

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:

 Co'tor Shas wrote:

 Vladsimpaler wrote:

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:


Think about it: you just said that it's fine that an Eldar transport has the same firepower as a Tau MBT. Do you not see anything wrong with that?

With an accusation like that, it sounds like you would have gotten just as mad if he would have said: "it's fine that a current United States IFV has the same firepower as a World War I tank."

Eldar tech is so far advanced beyond the Tau to an extent that even my analogy fails to display the gross discrepancies between the two.

You realize that much of the Tau weapon tech is more powerful than the Eldar's? Even with much of the Eldar tech being better than tau tech, the main battletank of the tau should still have more firepower than the DC of the Eldar. Tau tech is very advanced which is their main strength. They generally have more powerful, longer ranged guns than anyone else. Just because they are not 100,000YO civilization doesn't mean that they have weak technology.

No. Just no. Tau don't have more advanced tech than Eldar.

Is pulse weaponry more powerful than shurikin? Yes, it is. I did say that I agree that the eldar have more advanced tech then tau in general, but tau have some tech that is more advanced that eldar. The eldar's main strength in warp and physic tech, which the tau lack. Tua have very strong weaponry, but lack much of the super weaponry that eldar have. Eldar do have (in general) the best tech (other than necrons at times). That is not to say that eldar always have the best tech.

 Co'tor Shas wrote:

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:

 Co'tor Shas wrote:

 Vladsimpaler wrote:

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:


Think about it: you just said that it's fine that an Eldar transport has the same firepower as a Tau MBT. Do you not see anything wrong with that?

With an accusation like that, it sounds like you would have gotten just as mad if he would have said: "it's fine that a current United States IFV has the same firepower as a World War I tank."

Eldar tech is so far advanced beyond the Tau to an extent that even my analogy fails to display the gross discrepancies between the two.

You realize that much of the Tau weapon tech is more powerful than the Eldar's? Even with much of the Eldar tech being better than tau tech, the main battletank of the tau should still have more firepower than the DC of the Eldar. Tau tech is very advanced which is their main strength. They generally have more powerful, longer ranged guns than anyone else. Just because they are not 100,000YO civilization doesn't mean that they have weak technology.

No. Just no. Tau don't have more advanced tech than Eldar.

Is pulse weaponry more powerful than shurikin? Yes, it is.

Not fluffwise.

Fluff wise Eldar (along with DE) are the second most technologically advanced races in the world. Simply put, Tau technology has NOTHING on Eldar tech yet. Necrons have the best technology and daemons don't count since they are magical warp dust. Simply put, Tau guns are inferior to Eldar technology fluff wise. That being said, it's an attempt to balance things out.

Martel732 wrote:
Power creep is meaningless if every list is the same power.

That's never going to happen with GW, as it requires all codices to be released at the same time, or remain mostly the same through the editions. And that wouldn't sell so much models.

But some toning down on the current top dogs(not the entire codex, just the few things adjusted in performance or prices) and boost to the other codices in the same respect(for instance, a tactical marine should be able to choose whether to go pistol-cc weapon or bolter or both, appropriately costed, or stuff like Storm Ravens should be able to choose whether to pay for their ability to transport a Dreadnought. If you don't have one in your list, that ability is useless.).

 StarTrotter wrote:
Fluff wise Eldar (along with DE) are the second most technologically advanced races in the world. Simply put, Tau technology has NOTHING on Eldar tech yet. Necrons have the best technology and daemons don't count since they are magical warp dust. Simply put, Tau guns are inferior to Eldar technology fluff wise. That being said, it's an attempt to balance things out.

Tau guns are also more powerful than eldar guns fluffwise. It says in the tau codex on pulse rifles and carbines "Their range and hitting power outclasses the standard weapons of every race the Tau have yet encountered." I do agree that eldar do have better tech than tau, just that tau have better tech in some cases. All the technological advanced races (humans, necrons, tau) have some tech which outclasses it's eldar equivalent, but it's usually rare and expensive (or in the case of tau, they are a relatively small race). I do agree that tau tech is inferior to eldar tech, accept in a few cases (pulse rifles are a good example).

A blunderbuss or 18th century canon isn't more technologically advanced than a modern pistol.

Aren't there some hints that much of Tau technology is driven by Eldar manipulations? While Necron tech is better than Eldar tech, Eldar tech still vastly outclass any other race in 40k. However, Eldar industry/production is less than probably even Tau at this point.

The Shuriken Catapault is certainly more advanced than the Pulse Rifle, but it isn't engineered for the same use.

Bharring wrote:
A blunderbuss or 18th century canon isn't more technologically advanced than a modern pistol.

Aren't there some hints that much of Tau technology is driven by Eldar manipulations? While Necron tech is better than Eldar tech, Eldar tech still vastly outclass any other race in 40k. However, Eldar industry/production is less than probably even Tau at this point.

The Shuriken Catapault is certainly more advanced than the Pulse Rifle, but it isn't engineered for the same use.

I haven't heard any hints of tau being driven/controlled by eldar (although I wouldn't out it past GW).

I think I see the problem here, it's semantics. I was defining it as being better because it was cheap, efficient, and more powerful. It works like a coil gun, which is a simple concept, but hard to make. Shuriken weapons may be more technologically advanced than a pulse rifle (but does that really matter when the pulse rifle is better).

Also, aren't they both just designed to kill things?\

Random thing, IIRC, the tau have captured some shuriken weapons, and know how they work.

 Co'tor Shas wrote:

Bharring wrote:
A blunderbuss or 18th century canon isn't more technologically advanced than a modern pistol.

Aren't there some hints that much of Tau technology is driven by Eldar manipulations? While Necron tech is better than Eldar tech, Eldar tech still vastly outclass any other race in 40k. However, Eldar industry/production is less than probably even Tau at this point.

The Shuriken Catapault is certainly more advanced than the Pulse Rifle, but it isn't engineered for the same use.

I haven't heard any hints of tau being driven/controlled by eldar (although I wouldn't out it past GW).

I think I see the problem here, it's semantics. I was defining it as being better because it was cheap, efficient, and more powerful. It works like a coil gun, which is a simple concept, but hard to make. Shuriken weapons may be more technologically advanced than a pulse rifle (but does that really matter when the pulse rifle is better).

Also, aren't they both just designed to kill things?\

Random thing, IIRC, the tau have captured some shuriken weapons, and know how they work.

Xenology more or less flat out tells you that the Tau only got where they are because the Eldar created the Ethereals and helped guide them along from the shadows.

And a great deal of Eldar are very sympathetic to the Tau, up to and including Eldrad.

In other words, you only exist because the Elves think you're useful for some long term plan.

 Kain wrote:

 Co'tor Shas wrote:

Bharring wrote:
A blunderbuss or 18th century canon isn't more technologically advanced than a modern pistol.

Aren't there some hints that much of Tau technology is driven by Eldar manipulations? While Necron tech is better than Eldar tech, Eldar tech still vastly outclass any other race in 40k. However, Eldar industry/production is less than probably even Tau at this point.

The Shuriken Catapault is certainly more advanced than the Pulse Rifle, but it isn't engineered for the same use.

I haven't heard any hints of tau being driven/controlled by eldar (although I wouldn't out it past GW).

I think I see the problem here, it's semantics. I was defining it as being better because it was cheap, efficient, and more powerful. It works like a coil gun, which is a simple concept, but hard to make. Shuriken weapons may be more technologically advanced than a pulse rifle (but does that really matter when the pulse rifle is better).

Also, aren't they both just designed to kill things?\

Random thing, IIRC, the tau have captured some shuriken weapons, and know how they work.

Xenology more or less flat out tells you that the Tau only got where they are because the Eldar created the Ethereals and helped guide them along from the shadows.

And a great deal of Eldar are very sympathetic to the Tau, up to and including Eldrad.

It does? Doesn't it also say that tau are scared of loud noises, genestealers have blunt claes, and shuriken weapons can't penetrate flack armour (or was that the uplifting primer).

 Co'tor Shas wrote:

 Kain wrote:

 Co'tor Shas wrote:

Bharring wrote:
A blunderbuss or 18th century canon isn't more technologically advanced than a modern pistol.

Aren't there some hints that much of Tau technology is driven by Eldar manipulations? While Necron tech is better than Eldar tech, Eldar tech still vastly outclass any other race in 40k. However, Eldar industry/production is less than probably even Tau at this point.

The Shuriken Catapault is certainly more advanced than the Pulse Rifle, but it isn't engineered for the same use.

I haven't heard any hints of tau being driven/controlled by eldar (although I wouldn't out it past GW).

I think I see the problem here, it's semantics. I was defining it as being better because it was cheap, efficient, and more powerful. It works like a coil gun, which is a simple concept, but hard to make. Shuriken weapons may be more technologically advanced than a pulse rifle (but does that really matter when the pulse rifle is better).

Also, aren't they both just designed to kill things?\

Random thing, IIRC, the tau have captured some shuriken weapons, and know how they work.

Xenology more or less flat out tells you that the Tau only got where they are because the Eldar created the Ethereals and helped guide them along from the shadows.

And a great deal of Eldar are very sympathetic to the Tau, up to and including Eldrad.

It does? Doesn't it also say that tau are scared of loud noises, genestealers have blunt claes, and shuriken weapons can't penetrate flack armour (or was that the uplifting primer).

That's the uplifting Primer.

Xenology is a very cool, out of print in universe documentation of the various alien races of 40k. Much of what we know about the minor races for example, comes mostly from Xenology. It's a must have if you're into Xenos but next to impossible to acquire legally.

Xenology also contains large amounts of stuff that's flat out wrong. Hooves anyone? Still not certain about Eldar being reptiles, but that's also from Xenology while other canon material suggests human and Eldar can breed.

But enough of the fluff.

AA is actually a section that the Eldar is lacking. There's only one unit that can do it for a justifiable price (the air superiority fighter, no less) and one that has weapons designed for it but due to prohibitive costs chooses less than ideal costs and hope for 6's (War Walkers). Other than this, it's actually massed amounts of Wave Serpents with Scatter Lasers that's the best bet to take down air. Warp Spiders can do it as well, but they aren't good at it and will leave themselves out in the open unless the aircraft is poorly positioned.

Also, I have another simple thing in mind that'll mitigate Wave Serpents even more: all aspect warrior squads cost 10 points more and include an Exarch as a non-optional model.
Force people to care about the squads that's being transported, just that little extra.

For the Jetcouncil, which I should add is a very Saim-Hann thing, you could also add like someone suggested a very strong restriction in the number of Warlocks allowed to accompany a Farseer. One or two maybe, but allow the entire group to join any unit.

As for the Eldar Psychic powers (Fate), they're really bad, honestly. Some of them have great concept, but playing almost exclusively with psychers as HQ for a very long while have led me to wish Farseers had access to the Warlock psychic powers. GW really nailed it with the Warlock psychic power set, they are versatile but all in all rather weak, but still there's only a single result that's highly situational (Destructor/Renew).
And for whoever tried to say Mind War is a good psychic power... I don't know what to say, honestly, to even have that conclusion from something that I'd only ever take for a STRONGLY story driven campaign... I don't know. Costs TWO warp charges, requires the Farseer to HIT the target, also requires the Farseer to roll incredibly low on the psychic test to choose target, and has a drawback if it fails on it's secondary test and still allows for invulnerable saves?!
It was bad back when it didn't require a hit, back when it cost one warp charge and back when it allowed you to choose model to be hit at well (although it allowed cover saves) and it is now worse on almost every account.
Yes, it can do impressive stuff, but it's highly stacked against the Farseer. The average result of a Mind War is for the hostile model to suffer no wounds but get "blinded". For two warp charge.
Because it costs two warp charges, that makes it the worst of all focussed witchfires since Spontaneous Combustion while having shorter range allows you to cast stuff like Terrify the same turn.
Also, you'll find that that cheap artefact does very little for the Eldar tables and a lot more for Telepathy.

I don't roll on the Runes of Fate table more than once, because 3 of 6 results are horrible and 1 of the remaining 3 is undesirable (that being Eldritch)

The Fate table (and that "cheap" gem, which I have never taken since it's typically paying points to be able to use spells I don't necessarily get nor necessarily want) would be much more interesting if all the powers were designed to be WC2. And I do mean designed, not the half-arsed attempt you find with Mind War and Death Mission.

 Mahtamori wrote:

AA is actually a section that the Eldar is lacking. There's only one unit that can do it for a justifiable price (the air superiority fighter, no less) and one that has weapons designed for it but due to prohibitive costs chooses less than ideal costs and hope for 6's (War Walkers). Other than this, it's actually massed amounts of Wave Serpents with Scatter Lasers that's the best bet to take down air. Warp Spiders can do it as well, but they aren't good at it and will leave themselves out in the open unless the aircraft is poorly positioned.

Also, I have another simple thing in mind that'll mitigate Wave Serpents even more: all aspect warrior squads cost 10 points more and include an Exarch as a non-optional model.
Force people to care about the squads that's being transported, just that little extra.

For the Jetcouncil, which I should add is a very Saim-Hann thing, you could also add like someone suggested a very strong restriction in the number of Warlocks allowed to accompany a Farseer. One or two maybe, but allow the entire group to join any unit.

AA - which Codex woud you rate as having even as good or better than Eldar - other than Tau and Necrons? Again if the Serpant can do this as well - yet another reason its too good

Wave Serpants - the problem is def not the contents its the vehicle itself, some Aspects (banshees) are terrible as it is Alot of Serpents don't carry Aspect Warriors in games.

The Serpent needs a hefty points cost increase or a reduction in abilities.

C:SM actually has dedicated ground to air.

Also, did you read the first post? This thread is all about reducing the Wave Serpent's abilities in a sensible manner.

Yes I did - its the definatioin of sensible that many of us are going to disagree on I think

But as I pointed out the problem is def not with the contents - why pick on Aspect Warriors to try adn balance the problem with the actual vehicle?

I still think they should faq the Wraith Knight to have a 2+ save instead of the 3+ so it can be in line with the Riptide.

Zakiriel, is that satire or do you consider the Wraithknight weak?

 Mr Morden wrote:
Yes I did - its the definatioin of sensible that many of us are going to disagree on I think

But as I pointed out the problem is def not with the contents - why pick on Aspect Warriors to try adn balance the problem with the actual vehicle?

Actually, I see this as also correcting the codex to be closer to the fluff in that no responsible Exarch would ever let their protégées out in battle without him guiding their wayward minds through the dangers of combat (if we ignore minor issues such as physical injury). Reducing Davu is just a side benefit.

Also, codex is missing a light transport.

hmmm So are you restricting the Wave Serpant to only be able to carry Aspect Warriors?

Still need to do something about the artillery aspect of the craft as that does not match the fluff either. needs to be short range and/or one shot IMO

How does this help Banshees?

 Zakiriel wrote:
I still think they should faq the Wraith Knight to have a 2+ save instead of the 3+ so it can be in line with the Riptide.

How about faq the riptide to have a 3+ save instead of a 2+ save?

I'd so go for that!

 Araenion wrote:
SRSFACE:

The part about AA is true to an extent, but the problem is that the most common Flyers(Heldrakes, Vendettas, Night Scythes) are a big problem for Eldar, not just because they are hard to take down, but also because of what they do to our stuff. You can't Intercept it because we have no Intercept, so you just have to grind your teeth and hope their alpha-strike isn't so devastating it cripplies your army. So no, we don't do AA well and Flyers are a thorn in pretty much every pure Eldar list, except Serpent spam.

Sorry if I came across as insulting. Was not intentional. I haven't been in a good place mentally and I deal with that through sarcastic humor which is unfair to put on people I don't really know through the internet as they don't know it's coming from a place of humor rather than a place of just antagonistic crap. So, sorry. I really didn't mean to come across as rudely as I did.

Anyway to address the rest of this:
I'm saying that's not any worse than it is for any other army out there except Tau and Necron. Space Marines that want to field Interceptor have to turn to Forgeworld and pay a pretty steep price for Mortis-Pattern anything AND give up one of their heavy support slots which tend to be in high demand for that codex.

Eldar within their own rulebook do anti-air better than Dark Eldar, Dark Angels, Space Wolves Orks, Sisters, Grey Knights, Tyranids, Chaos Marines, and Chaos Daemons. I'd tie them with Space Marines/Blood Angels, giving a slight edge to them maybe because of Mortis-Pattern dreads. (Even with those, I still rank Dark Angels lower because that's ALL they have and they lack Hunter/Stalker and Storm Talons/Ravens). That puts them at 4th or 5th best. Being middle of the road against something that is still completely new to this edition and borderline broken anyway actually strikes me as doing it rather well.

 SRSFACE wrote:
Sorry if I came across as insulting. Was not intentional. I haven't been in a good place mentally and I deal with that through sarcastic humor which is unfair to put on people I don't really know through the internet as they don't know it's coming from a place of humor rather than a place of just antagonistic crap. So, sorry. I really didn't mean to come across as rudely as I did.

No worries, mate, we'll chuck it up to internet walls, language barriers and the like.

 SRSFACE wrote:
Anyway to address the rest of this:
I'm saying that's not any worse than it is for any other army out there except Tau and Necron. Space Marines that want to field Interceptor have to turn to Forgeworld and pay a pretty steep price for Mortis-Pattern anything AND give up one of their heavy support slots which tend to be in high demand for that codex.

Eldar within their own rulebook do anti-air better than Dark Eldar, Dark Angels, Space Wolves Orks, Sisters, Grey Knights, Tyranids, Chaos Marines, and Chaos Daemons. I'd tie them with Space Marines/Blood Angels, giving a slight edge to them maybe because of Mortis-Pattern dreads. (Even with those, I still rank Dark Angels lower because that's ALL they have and they lack Hunter/Stalker and Storm Talons/Ravens). That puts them at 4th or 5th best. Being middle of the road against something that is still completely new to this edition and borderline broken anyway actually strikes me as doing it rather well.

Thing is, half of those codices are from old editions, Sisters have a codex that really can't be called that, and Tyranids, CSM and CD I actually feel have better ways to deal with flyers than Eldar do. Plus, what do Chaos Demons care about any flyer out there, except perhaps the Storm Raven.

Also, if Eldar are middle-of-the-road now vs flyers, imagine where they'll be if Serpent Shield is nerfed to oblivion. That's another reason why we should get something that's dedicated to take care of flyers and is NOT a flyer itself. Falcon fits the bill perfectly, gameplay and fluff-wise.The thing is supposed to have limited flight capability, hanging around in the clouds, swooping down like a bird-of-prey that it takes it's name from and raining fire on the enemy from above.

Swooping Hawks should also have the ability to assault flyers as the appropriately-costed Exarch power.

 Mr Morden wrote:
hmmm So are you restricting the Wave Serpant to only be able to carry Aspect Warriors?

Still need to do something about the artillery aspect of the craft as that does not match the fluff either. needs to be short range and/or one shot IMO

How does this help Banshees?

Errr... no. Guardians are already more expensive since they are 10+ and it doesn't help Banshees because I'm not really discussing the stuff that's in need of help in this thread. Also, as per the original post, the shield is reduced in range significantly. Whether that's significant enough is another matter entirely, but 24" is hardly "artillery". Personally, I'd be happy to play the Serpents without the shot at all.

Well there kind of is an Eldar dedicated AAA vehicle, if you go to FW.
http://www.forgeworld.co.uk/Warhammer-40000/Eldar/ELDAR-FIRESTORM-COMPLETE-KIT.html

So would I. IF the cost was reduced significantly.

About the Firestorm - S6 Skyfire isn't key to fixing Eldar AA. Guided War walkers murder anything <AV 12, including flyers. It's the big 3 that Eldar have issues with: Heldrakes, Vendettas and Storm Ravens. >

 Mahtamori wrote:

 Mr Morden wrote:
hmmm So are you restricting the Wave Serpant to only be able to carry Aspect Warriors?

Still need to do something about the artillery aspect of the craft as that does not match the fluff either. needs to be short range and/or one shot IMO

How does this help Banshees?

Errr... no. Guardians are already more expensive since they are 10+ and it doesn't help Banshees because I'm not really discussing the stuff that's in need of help in this thread. Also, as per the original post, the shield is reduced in range significantly. Whether that's significant enough is another matter entirely, but 24" is hardly "artillery". Personally, I'd be happy to play the Serpents without the shot at all.

I don't see the point in discussing only nerfing things - balancing a codex is about making overpowered things less so and making poor choices worth while surely? Both these should be "necessary changes"?

The Shot should do something as its part of the fluff bt it needs top be something that, as you suggest is not used ascombined L/R artillery /AA/anti-tank as it s now - 24" might do it...............might not.

1. I would say the shield should be 3d6+1 all the same rules, but A one shot item. This means that it can still kill flyers but will loose its shield for the rest of the game.
2. Give them 36" range instead of 60" (and maybe cap them to 3/4 per detachment)
3. Make them recharge on a 5+

As for AA eldar are a race that specializes we should have a dedicated AA unit.

Warp spiders should loose rending
War walkers Scat should go up 5 points per model
Jet seer should limit to only eldar Codex. (this stops 2++ re-rollable)
Increase Jetbikes by 5-10 points
Autarch should be able to take a path and pick exarch gear/rules from that path, also make the path troops for 2 slots. (they walked the path, they should have access to all the gear) +1/-1 to yours and , opponents roll for reserves. (make sure theirs come in and yours come after)
Fire prisms are good. Right down the middle maybe +1 strength on shots
Falcons should get Dedicated slot or better fire power. Maybe aa system for 15 points.
All eldar cc needs boost...
Scorpions can infiltrate but get annihilated by any good opponent. Point reduction or Assault vehicles fix them but they still don't hit hard enough to survive or even be called dedicated CC units.
Maybe a 6++ save.
Banshees just need a vehicle for assault. Give them grenades and on the charge +1 to the ap of their weapons. (3 goes to 2)
Harlequins need +1 to invulnerable save. Auto pass their test. Reduce rending to 3points instead of 4.
Fire dragons give the exarch split fire for 5 points. (give us a reason to take him)
Hawks are middle.
5++ save on all pheonix lords (+1 to asurmen). Come on they need it.
Wraithlords need +1 wound and maybe 6/5+ fnp. ( they suck next to the wraith Knight
Wraith Knights maybe a couple of points increase, not to much.

Thats all i can think of for balancing. Tell me what you think in a logical response without but hurt or radical nerf hammering.

 Zakiriel wrote:
I still think they should faq the Wraith Knight to have a 2+ save instead of the 3+ so it can be in line with the Riptide.

But than it needs to go down to toughness 6.

I was in a discussion recently and the topic of Harliquins came up and an idea was floated to help them be more fluffy and survivable on the table top.
The Idea was to take away their 5 up invuln save and instead replace it with a rule like the death leaper has where upon you have to resolve all shooting against them as snap fire.
They are still fragile if you can hit them but as their motif is about being so elusive, mobile and confusing with their holo projectors that it is very hard to target and hit them it was thought this might work out.

What do you think about this idea?

It sounds great, but without a save they will die, maybe a 6++ and make i a 4++ in close combat, with the snapfire rule that you mentioned.

1. I would say the shield should be 3d6+1 all the same rules, but A one shot item. This means that it can still kill flyers but will loose its shield for the rest of the game.
2. Give them 36" range instead of 60" (and maybe cap them to 3/4 per detachment)
3. Make them recharge on a 5+

"Why do they need long range / 36" range at all for an weapon of absolute last resort as specificed in the Codex, no recharge for same reasons, why does it need to be another AAA choice - its a trasnport not a gunship - or should be if the rules matched the fluff"

As for AA eldar are a race that specializes we should have a dedicated AA unit. They do - not only do they have the Firestorm they have a dedicated and extremely powerful air supperiority fighter - which is the best way to contact the air
rest seems ok at first glance.

Warp spiders should loose rending
War walkers Scat should go up 5 points per model
Jet seer should limit to only eldar Codex. (this stops 2++ re-rollable)
Increase Jetbikes by 5-10 points
Autarch should be able to take a path and pick exarch gear/rules from that path, also make the path troops for 2 slots. (they walked the path, they should have access to all the gear) +1/-1 to yours and , opponents roll for reserves. (make sure theirs come in and yours come after)
Fire prisms are good. Right down the middle maybe +1 strength on shots
Falcons should get Dedicated slot or better fire power. Maybe aa system for 15 points.
All eldar cc needs boost...
Scorpions can infiltrate but get annihilated by any good opponent. Point reduction or Assault vehicles fix them but they still don't hit hard enough to survive or even be called dedicated CC units.
Maybe a 6++ save.
Banshees just need a vehicle for assault. Give them grenades and on the charge +1 to the ap of their weapons. (3 goes to 2)
Harlequins need +1 to invulnerable save. Auto pass their test. Reduce rending to 3points instead of 4.
Fire dragons give the exarch split fire for 5 points. (give us a reason to take him)
Hawks are middle.
5++ save on all pheonix lords (+1 to asurmen). Come on they need it.
Wraithlords need +1 wound and maybe 6/5+ fnp. ( they suck next to the wraith Knight
Wraith Knights maybe a couple of points increase, not to much.

Thats all i can think of for balancing. Tell me what you think in a logical response without but hurt or radical nerf hammering.

Firestorm is a forge world unit.
36" is to match the other guns.
IT is a high power energy field being propelled forward. It should be destructive, but a One shot, or long time recharge.
Saying our AA is the crimson hunter is not good enough. We need a ground to air that can intercept. While crimson hunters are great AA, but they can be countered by fire warriors...
the 3 options are relative with fluff. (the 36"/3/4 per detach is the only exception.)

Its not "just" a transport, either by fluff or points. It's also not supposed to be the gunboat it currently is.

It's supposed to be an extremely hard-to-damage transport relying on tech and mobility to save it (4+ jink and defensive Shells do that well), instead of strong armor. It's still very vulnerable to a Krak grenade from behind or anything in melee, but those sea-slime large lasers and missiles shouldn't be its bane. It should have decent options for support heavy weapons (it already does), but it shouldn't be a long-range gunboat.

Giving it the 3d6+1 shots, even on a one-use, substantially improves its alpha strike, at the expense of its sustained capabilities. This is Eldar we're talking about. An incredibly short range (6-12"), however, makes it a viable ohcrap option without otherwise improving its alpha. Too much of the game, especially Tau and Eldar, is all about the long range alpha, where positioning and movement aren't as involved. This change would just exacerbate that.

Who would let a serpent get within 6-12" of them and not have it destroyed?
Against both Tau and imperial guard wave serpents are easy pray and getting any closure than 30"/36" is suicide. 36" should be the shortest range on the gun.(maybe 24" but that's pushing it.)

k- Maybe 2d6+1 1 shot at 36".

 Slayer222 wrote:
Who would let a serpent get within 6-12" of them and not have it destroyed?
Against both Tau and imperial guard wave serpents are easy pray and getting any closure than 30"/36" is suicide. 36" should be the shortest range on the gun.(maybe 24" but that's pushing it.)

k- Maybe 2d6+1 1 shot at 36".

If it was a guinship maybe yes that sort of range - but thats the point - its a transport not mobile artillery/anti-tank/AA/etc etc as it is and you seem want to keep it?

Saying our AA is the crimson hunter is not good enough While crimson hunters are great AA, but they can be countered by fire warriors

]If they are great than there is no problem - if they are shooting at the super maneuverable flyer - what are the not shooting at?

EVERYTHING can be countered by something - why do you feel that Eldar should have loads of AA options when pretty much everyone gets SFA - I'd love to the have the Hunter(or in fact ANYTHING) option for my Sisters, Why do you feel they need a point and click win unit in this area as well as all the other stuff they have?

All eldar units should be point and click=win but if you point them the wrong direction they should get destroyed.
Sisters isn't a real codex so comparing anything to them is crap(white dwarf book)
All the new armies get a flyer and some get specialized ground to air. Eldar as a point should have had that even if it was something like the hydra
The Crimson hunter is complete bs and goes against fluff. Eldar love survivability and everlife is important. The crimson hunter has almost no defense over than speed. And even then it is not a supersonic flyer. It should have gotten something to make it atleast resistant to bolters. They love defence not offense. (and speed)
I would have actually loved it even if the serpent shield was a one shot deal
If you want to make it more eldary make it an extra save on a 5+ a pen/glance doesn't loose hp.

Also eldar have no ignore cover other than the serpent.

Sorry just no

The Crimson Hunter is a brilliant interceptor - I have seen it in action and its great - and as said before makes more sense than using a transport vehicle as a AA platform. If you want to cotnrol the skyies - you do it with aircraft and the Ch is one of the best at this with Vector Dancer (wich my Dark Eldar fighter would kill for), good guns that re-roll to hit against flyers.

Sisters IS a real Codex - Its released as a digtial article, I paid for it and GW consider it so - the WD article is no longer current.- get your info up to date.

All the new armies get a flyer and some get specialized ground to air. Eldar as a point should have had that even if it was something like the hydra

Ok so the Eldar got 2 flyers -= Check and Anti-aicraft missiles - so same as the Chaos Marines and Dark Angels - Check? No issue then.

Also eldar have no ignore cover other than the serpent.

So what - they can't have everything - most codexes don't get psudo-rending on their basic infantry weapons - should we all be moaning that we don;t have that in our codexes.

CH is an interceptor, not a fighter. Sure, it has a decent chance to drop that helldrake *if* the drake comes in first, but it dies quickly to Scouts with bolters. Or most of the basic troops in the game.

Our other flyer is just as made of paper, only without descent AA, and with the added benefit of being *completely unable* to fire it's main gun on the turn it arrives. On an av10.

They both have their uses, but neither will reliably handle a helldrake, much less two.

Bharring wrote:
CH is an interceptor, not a fighter. Sure, it has a decent chance to drop that helldrake *if* the drake comes in first, but it dies quickly to Scouts with bolters. Or most of the basic troops in the game.

Our other flyer is just as made of paper, only without descent AA, and with the added benefit of being *completely unable* to fire it's main gun on the turn it arrives. On an av10.

They both have their uses, but neither will reliably handle a helldrake, much less two.

I have seen CH in action - very powerful combned with Vector Strike - I simply have not seen and don't believe that scouts or similar units regular shoot down Crimson Hunters - thats the whole point of flyers they are hard to kill, except by dedcated AA and ther flyers - otherwise why do the Eldar need them at all - you can't have it both ways.

So its not about general air cover - just helldrakes? So to handle a specific unit that may be OP you think another army should have an OP unit of its very own? Unlike everyone else?

Again why does the Edlar need better stuff in air cover than anyone else considering the other huge advantages of their Codex?

Bharring wrote:

They both have their uses, but neither will reliably handle a helldrake, much less two.

What anti-air defense unit that isn't a Vendetta will?

 koooaei wrote:
Wave serpents need a nerf. Or point increase.

Not a point increase. That makes them even more unfeasible for their supposed actual role as a transport. Honestly I'd like to see them focused on that role whereas at the moment people buy the squads just to get the transport. I like them being decent tanks, don't get me wrong but lets nerf the shield rather than raise the price.

Would it off the wall to change the way the shield worked entirely and to be more like the original wave serpents in Epic? Basically you can still fire them, but they do a large blast template and everything covered by it is moved randomly (or by attacking player, but random seems fairer) to represent the force shield flinging people out if the way. Everyone under can take an S3 hit to represent being flung around by the roiling energy with AP - , meaning light troops might lose the odd casualty but marines, et al. are probably fine.

So basically it is no longer a multi-firing powerful gun, but something tactical and fluff fitting. (the original shield is just a force field that can be projected forward). If we want to keep the shield from being super-nerfed, then it could do D3 large blast templates that must be positioned touching. Would be wonderfully fun and fluffy as it makes the Wave Serpent a properly Eldar attack vehicle, e.g. for flinging people out of cover so that DAs can pile out and start shooting at them. If we did the D3 version, I'd actually be tempted to keep the points cost as is.

Good or too radical for people?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Slayer222 wrote:
The Crimson hunter is complete bs and goes against fluff. Eldar love survivability and everlife is important. The crimson hunter has almost no defense over than speed.

That's entirely fluffy for Eldar and practically their modus operandii. Holo-fields, fast lightly armoured banshees and Harlequins, slenderly build titans and wraithknights. These things are equivalently tough due to Imperials due to Eldar technology but look at these things - if the eldar believed in strength through solidity they could make blocky things like land raiders that were even tougher but they don't. Fast and hard to hit is practically a core tenet of Eldar warfare.

 Slayer222 wrote:

Also eldar have no ignore cover other than the serpent.

There's too much ignore cover in the game already. I'm happy with my units as is, fir the most part.

knas ser wrote:


Would it off the wall to change the way the shield worked entirely and to be more like the original wave serpents in Epic? Basically you can still fire them, but they do a large blast template and everything covered by it is moved randomly (or by attacking player, but random seems fairer) to represent the force shield flinging people out if the way. Everyone under can take an S3 hit to represent being flung around by the roiling energy with AP - , meaning light troops might lose the odd casualty but marines, et al. are probably fine.

So basically it is no longer a multi-firing powerful gun, but something tactical and fluff fitting. (the original shield is just a force field that can be projected forward). If we want to keep the shield from being super-nerfed, then it could do D3 large blast templates that must be positioned touching. Would be wonderfully fun and fluffy as it makes the Wave Serpent a properly Eldar attack vehicle, e.g. for flinging people out of cover so that DAs can pile out and start shooting at them. If we did the D3 version, I'd actually be tempted to keep the points cost as is.

Good or too radical for people?

I like the idea, but part of why Lash was so hated was that it allowed your enemy to move your models. It doesn't really matter if you move everything properly in your phase when the enemy can just throw them out of cover or completely screw over the firing arc of a heavy weapons team, for example.

On Firestorm: have seen it in action, it's surprisingly meek considering it costs nearly the same as a Land Raider. I have no imperial equivalent to compare it to, since I don't know of a single unit I'd say costs 50% too much while still not able to do the job it's meant for.
To sum it up: Firestorm underperform for it's role and cost too much for it's intended performance.

On Flakk Missiles: they have a design problem in that they are strength 7 and heavy 1, not to mention that they aren't ap3. No army likes these and the game as a whole would benefit if these were improved to be S8 AP3 across all armies.
For Codex Eldar they are stupidly expensive. While true for most armies, to illustrate: it costs 15 points to upgrade a Shuriken Cannon to a Missile Launcher (every other heavy weapon costs 5 points) and then you need to pay 10 points to get a missile that doesn't do it's job. Iron Arm is standard for FMC, and so is armour 3+. For flyers you need to deal with AV12, since the AV10 flyers are better dealt with by means of massive amounts of S4-6 fire (these kinds of weapons are more versatile than a missile launcher).
To sum it up: Flakk missiles underperform and cost too much. (For all armies)

Regarding Crimson Hunters: Yeah, they are great with a massive weakness for the opponent to exploit. However, an opponent do not need dedicated anti-air to deal with Crimson Hunters, but the Crimson Hunter is necessary to deal with AV11+ air for the Eldar Codex. This is an eschewed situation and more a product of overarching game design. They sort of exist in a realm of instability. Locally they are perfect, but if viewed as a part of the whole they are a bad solution to the problem that is the flyer implementation.
As it is, if you know your friends use Vendettas, Heldrakes or any similar AV11+ nonsense, TWO Crimson Hunters are mandatory (they seem to fail if going solo).
Mandatory models aren't good. Also it locks up Fast Attack, severely limiting army building.

Regarding Sororitas: They are a real codex, but they are a 5th edition codex. Yes, they deserve a Hunter and it's cousin. So do Dark Angels. I really think both should get them.

Regarding Lash of Submission / Shield Push: This game really has too few force-moves, the problem with lash was that it was fairly easy to use and moved models in a very predictable way - and that daemons were the only ones to have something like that.

Being a blast and then have models under it move directly away from the centre would be an interesting mechanic. Not sure I like it on a transport, though.

Not seen the Firestrom in action...

Flakk Missiles: 1st as you note everyone who has them has the same "problem" ............ Agree is a game issue not an Eldar one
Dark Reaper missile upgrades cost +10 for missile and +10 for extra Flakk missiles in My Codex. And you can have Exarch with fast shot.

Crimson Hunters - the problems are the two units people think are either OP or overcosted - again Game issue not an Eldar one. If the latter two units are also fixed - the issue goes away...............

Codex: Adepta Sororitas is 6th Edition - its not perfect and has the gaps but its fullly current.

Flakk on Reapers: That's Exarch only. It's not exactly optimal since you'll have to waste the rest of the unit's shooting to target the aircraft (unless you're shooting at Eldar or Dark Eldar aircraft)

Sororitas: it is? Wow, I'm out of touch with that side of the Imperium.

Your paying 70Pts plus the 2 other models that go along with the reaper for 2 strength 7 shots that will probable not do much damage.
All the other codex's could at least take a unit of flak, though over costed they at least had the option.
Other armies don't need anti AA to deal with our flyers, but we need them to deal with theirs. We have to take an Autarch to make them viable and then if the opponent has more flyers than we do the CH dies, and even then a couple of tactical squads could take it out. Orks can kill it with no problem with just boys...

 Slayer222 wrote:

Your paying 70Pts plus the 2 other models that go along with the reaper for 2 strength 7 shots that will probable not do much damage.
All the other codex's could at least take a unit of flak, though over costed they at least had the option.
Other armies don't need anti AA to deal with our flyers, but we need them to deal with theirs. We have to take an Autarch to make them viable and then if the opponent has more flyers than we do the CH dies, and even then a couple of tactical squads could take it out. Orks can kill it with no problem with just boys...

Sorry but from games expereince and obbservation of the Eldar - I disagree. What has your actual expereince been - how many Crimson hunters have you lost to speclative fire form Scout squads - although you have now said "several tacical squads"...............

Not everyone can take Flakk missiles and they are not exactly a perfect option - again why exactly are the Eldar deserving of special treatment in this area?

Because everyone are deserving better flakk options. Not just Eldar.

But that's outside the intent of this thread. Oh, and my Crimson Hunters usually die to Tactical Marines using Bolters. I've got two Crimsons and it's gotten to a point where I avoid using them, gambling on my enemy not taking air.

 Mahtamori wrote:
Because everyone are deserving better flakk options. Not just Eldar.

But that's outside the intent of this thread. Oh, and my Crimson Hunters usually die to Tactical Marines using Bolters. I've got two Crimsons and it's gotten to a point where I avoid using them, gambling on my enemy not taking air.

How many bolters are thet throwing at you with 6 to hit, 6 to damage and jink save? Have they not done any damge to the enemy air - The ones we use tend to swoop on and kill stuff dead. Last time I played against A CH wth Sisters could not even hit the thing.

Yes to all getting better AA options

Doesn't take all that many. Naturally, the average is 36 shots per hull point, but if you couple it with a heavy bolter chances are you will force me to evade at which point the aircraft is neutered for an entire turn (which means I zoom out from the board since that's a lot more safe than trying to hit with 6s).

Truth be told, I prefer the Nightwing, even if my dice are cursed whenever it tries to shoot.

 Mahtamori wrote:
Doesn't take all that many. Naturally, the average is 36 shots per hull point, but if you couple it with a heavy bolter chances are you will force me to evade at which point the aircraft is neutered for an entire turn (which means I zoom out from the board since that's a lot more safe than trying to hit with 6s).

Truth be told, I prefer the Nightwing, even if my dice are cursed whenever it tries to shoot.

Common misconception. I'm thinking perhaps that I should start a Maths thread here for those that are interested. In order to score a six then a six, you will get that on average once per 36 rolls, that is correct. However people are misusing that statistic in this case. The misuse is that people assume that if you average one hit in 36 rolls, you need to roll 36 times. That is incorrect in the case of one trial because you stop once you have your first hit.

Think of it this way: if you average one hit in every 36 rolls, where in those 36 rolls is the hut most likely to occur. You are as likely to get the hit on the first roll as on the last, correct? Therefore on average, if you're just trying to get one wound on the target, you'll get it in the middle of those 18 rolls. I.e. there's a 50:50 chance it will occur in the first half. So 18 bolters. 9 if Rapid Firing. Perfectly possible with a Tactical Squad.

The 1/36 means if you roll 144 dice, you expect 4 hits on average. It doesn't mean if you're after one hit you have to roll 36 times.

I actually lost my crimson hunters once to sisters. Limited terrain that could block my flyer from view, and to stop the heavy stuff from hitting them i had to place it next to 2 squads of basic sisters. ! hunter got a hull point lost from an aegis when they came in. And both died, 1 each to squads of sisters. You may say it is bad luck but when it continuously happens and you have no choice to survive the heavier artillery but to move next to weaker squads that shouldn't be able to do anything to flyers but kill our hunters. This may seem like one instant but it continuously happens and at 2k points games its hard to be out of range of everything. If you play against orks their planes are as deadly as ours are. The basic boys can shoot our planes down. The crimson hunter should have had dodge, holofields, or at least +1 av to front and side Armour.

It's also very common for those who've studied probability to assume others have not or that others can not grasp probability's application to reality

 Mr Morden wrote:

 Mahtamori wrote:
Because everyone are deserving better flakk options. Not just Eldar.

But that's outside the intent of this thread. Oh, and my Crimson Hunters usually die to Tactical Marines using Bolters. I've got two Crimsons and it's gotten to a point where I avoid using them, gambling on my enemy not taking air.

How many bolters are thet throwing at you with 6 to hit, 6 to damage and jink save? Have they not done any damge to the enemy air - The ones we use tend to swoop on and kill stuff dead. Last time I played against A CH wth Sisters could not even hit the thing.

Yes to all getting better AA options

I just picked up my Crimson Hunter a couple of weeks ago, and I've only played a couple of games with it. One in which it kicked face. Neither game did it get shot down, but in one game that was because I was wiping the floor with my opponent, and he had a billion other things to shoot at. The other game was because my opponent was wiping the floor with ME and we decided to not even play the next turn!

HOWEVER, I've played lots of games with the Ork Dakkajet. The Dakkajet has the same defense as the Crimson Hunter... nothing.

I've had my Dakkajets shot down by bolter fire more times than I can count. In my experience, they're so weak that my opponent would RATHER shoot bolters at it and shoot it down that way than use a dedicated anti-air unit or anti-vehicle unit at it. Just fire Bolters, and you'll get at least a couple of 6's. That's all it takes to bring one down.

I had a unit of Termigaunts shoot it down once.

I can appreciate that the Crimson Hunter is armed to the teeth, and is very maneuverable. However, I still think for the amount of points you pay for the Crimson Hunter, you should have SOME defensive abilities. Even the ability to take Holofields would be nice.

 Mahtamori wrote:
It's also very common for those who've studied probability to assume others have not or that others can not grasp probability's application to reality

No problem. I realize that you wrote average of 36 shots per hull point but your reply was to someone asking how many bolters it took to damage the craft so it's natural to think you were replying that it would take 36 shots. And really it is wrong what you wrote because you stop rolling once you've got the last hull point so it really is less than 36 shots per HP. You're making a statement based on a fixed number of trials, whereas in fact it is a fixed number of successes in this context. They are related but different problems and your statement pertains to the former. Apologies if my original post came across as lecturing, it really wasn't meant as such. But this really is a common misconception here.

knas ser wrote:

 Mahtamori wrote:
It's also very common for those who've studied probability to assume others have not or that others can not grasp probability's application to reality

No problem. I realize that you wrote average of 36 shots per hull point but your reply was to someone asking how many bolters it took to damage the craft so it's natural to think you were replying that it would take 36 shots. And really it is wrong what you wrote because you stop rolling once you've got the last hull point so it really is less than 36 shots per HP. You're making a statement based on a fixed number of trials, whereas in fact it is a fixed number of successes in this context. They are related but different problems and your statement pertains to the former. Apologies if my original post came across as lecturing, it really wasn't meant as such. But this really is a common misconception here.

Ok, ok, time to ease up on the difficult english

You missed a small thing in your math post, by the way, 18 S4 shots have a 40% chance of scoring one or more hull point damages - not the implied 50%.

 Mahtamori wrote:

knas ser wrote:

 Mahtamori wrote:
It's also very common for those who've studied probability to assume others have not or that others can not grasp probability's application to reality

No problem. I realize that you wrote average of 36 shots per hull point but your reply was to someone asking how many bolters it took to damage the craft so it's natural to think you were replying that it would take 36 shots. And really it is wrong what you wrote because you stop rolling once you've got the last hull point so it really is less than 36 shots per HP. You're making a statement based on a fixed number of trials, whereas in fact it is a fixed number of successes in this context. They are related but different problems and your statement pertains to the former. Apologies if my original post came across as lecturing, it really wasn't meant as such. But this really is a common misconception here.

Ok, ok, time to ease up on the difficult english

You missed a small thing in your math post, by the way, 18 S4 shots have a 40% chance of scoring one or more hull point damages - not the implied 50%.

Wait, how? 18/6/6 is 0.5, no?

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:

 Mahtamori wrote:

knas ser wrote:

 Mahtamori wrote:
It's also very common for those who've studied probability to assume others have not or that others can not grasp probability's application to reality

No problem. I realize that you wrote average of 36 shots per hull point but your reply was to someone asking how many bolters it took to damage the craft so it's natural to think you were replying that it would take 36 shots. And really it is wrong what you wrote because you stop rolling once you've got the last hull point so it really is less than 36 shots per HP. You're making a statement based on a fixed number of trials, whereas in fact it is a fixed number of successes in this context. They are related but different problems and your statement pertains to the former. Apologies if my original post came across as lecturing, it really wasn't meant as such. But this really is a common misconception here.

Ok, ok, time to ease up on the difficult english

You missed a small thing in your math post, by the way, 18 S4 shots have a 40% chance of scoring one or more hull point damages - not the implied 50%.

Wait, how? 18/6/6 is 0.5, no?

Each shot has a 35 in 36 chance of missing. You shoot 18 shots. (35/36)^18=60,23% chance of missing all shots.

Edit: rounding error

 Mahtamori wrote:

knas ser wrote:

 Mahtamori wrote:
It's also very common for those who've studied probability to assume others have not or that others can not grasp probability's application to reality

No problem. I realize that you wrote average of 36 shots per hull point but your reply was to someone asking how many bolters it took to damage the craft so it's natural to think you were replying that it would take 36 shots. And really it is wrong what you wrote because you stop rolling once you've got the last hull point so it really is less than 36 shots per HP. You're making a statement based on a fixed number of trials, whereas in fact it is a fixed number of successes in this context. They are related but different problems and your statement pertains to the former. Apologies if my original post came across as lecturing, it really wasn't meant as such. But this really is a common misconception here.

Ok, ok, time to ease up on the difficult english

I'm not sure what you mean by "difficult English". I'm not sure what part of it isn't clear but I'm happy to clarify. But then you added a smiley face so maybe you don't find it difficult but then I'm confused as to why you'd remark such in the first place. I honestly can't see any obscure words or unclear phrasing. Perhaps "trials"? That's the mathematical term used in Probability for the number of times you make the roll (or flip the coin, etc.). You implied that you'd studied Probability however so I figured the terminology was familiar. And I think it's clear from the context anyway.

Honestly, it's odd to have to say all that, but there's no "difficult English" in what I wrote and I'm honestly getting a bit of an argumentative vibe off you by this point what with your 'ease off' and your pointed comments about me being not the only one who's studied Probability. Of course I'm nit, I was just pointing out a flaw in what you said. I thought I was being helpful.

 Mahtamori wrote:
[You missed a small thing in your math post, by the way, 18 S4 shots have a 40% chance of scoring one or more hull point damages - not the implied 50%.

EDIT: Misunderstood what Mahmatori was getting at. Yes, it's 40%. I was trying to just explain the general principle that if it takes 36 shots on average to score one hit, then you don't expect that hit to occuring on the last roll. It has the same chance of happening on any of those rolls so on average it will happen in the middle of those rolls.

1/36 chance of glancing is pretty awful. The real problem the Crimson Hunter has is a Stalker or Quad gun has a reasonable chance of glancing it out in one volley, and it has a nearly 100% of dying on the second valley.

Compare to helldrake that can take quad gun volley after quad gun volley after volley.

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:

 Mahtamori wrote:

knas ser wrote:

 Mahtamori wrote:
It's also very common for those who've studied probability to assume others have not or that others can not grasp probability's application to reality

No problem. I realize that you wrote average of 36 shots per hull point but your reply was to someone asking how many bolters it took to damage the craft so it's natural to think you were replying that it would take 36 shots. And really it is wrong what you wrote because you stop rolling once you've got the last hull point so it really is less than 36 shots per HP. You're making a statement based on a fixed number of trials, whereas in fact it is a fixed number of successes in this context. They are related but different problems and your statement pertains to the former. Apologies if my original post came across as lecturing, it really wasn't meant as such. But this really is a common misconception here.

Ok, ok, time to ease up on the difficult english

You missed a small thing in your math post, by the way, 18 S4 shots have a 40% chance of scoring one or more hull point damages - not the implied 50%.

Wait, how? 18/6/6 is 0.5, no?

As Mahtamori says, you work out the chance of failure and then subtract it from 100% and this gives you your chance of success (which is near enough 40%).

It gets more interesting when you want to know not just one hit, but your probability spread. Here are the chances of 1/36 with 18 trials for multiple hits:

0 60%
1 31%
2 8%
3 1%
4 <1%

From 4 hits upwards, your chances of scoring that number of hits becomes vanishingly small.



Automatically Appended Next Post:

Martel732 wrote:
1/36 chance of glancing is pretty awful. The real problem the Crimson Hunter has is a Stalker or Quad gun has a reasonable chance of glancing it out in one volley, and it has a nearly 100% of dying on the second valley.

Compare to helldrake that can take quad gun volley after quad gun volley after volley.

Yeah, that's the real problem. And from a game design POV it's a problem because you can't just resolve the issue by lowering the points cost of the Crimson Hunter because then against these lists that don't have great counters to air (such as quad guns), it becomes something of an I Win button.

Martel, it really isn't. When placing Crimson Hunters, basic Marines are a serious threat that you have to be careful with. I've found that on properly set up tables I can hide my Hunters from Quad gun fire - or I simply zoom them off the table if there's nothing I need to kill at that moment.

knas ser wrote:

 Mahtamori wrote:

knas ser wrote:

 Mahtamori wrote:
It's also very common for those who've studied probability to assume others have not or that others can not grasp probability's application to reality

No problem. I realize that you wrote average of 36 shots per hull point but your reply was to someone asking how many bolters it took to damage the craft so it's natural to think you were replying that it would take 36 shots. And really it is wrong what you wrote because you stop rolling once you've got the last hull point so it really is less than 36 shots per HP. You're making a statement based on a fixed number of trials, whereas in fact it is a fixed number of successes in this context. They are related but different problems and your statement pertains to the former. Apologies if my original post came across as lecturing, it really wasn't meant as such. But this really is a common misconception here.

Ok, ok, time to ease up on the difficult english

I'm not sure what you mean by "difficult English". I'm not sure what part of it isn't clear but I'm happy to clarify. But then you added a smiley face so maybe you don't find it difficult but then I'm confused as to why you'd remark such in the first place. I honestly can't see any obscure words or unclear phrasing. Perhaps "trials"? That's the mathematical term used in Probability for the number of times you make the roll (or flip the coin, etc.). You implied that you'd studied Probability however so I figured the terminology was familiar. And I think it's clear from the context anyway.

Honestly, it's odd to have to say all that, but there's no "difficult English" in what I wrote and I'm honestly getting a bit of an argumentative vibe off you by this point what with your 'ease off' and your pointed comments about me being not the only one who's studied Probability. Of course I'm nit, I was just pointing out a flaw in what you said. I thought I was being helpful.

 Mahtamori wrote:
[You missed a small thing in your math post, by the way, 18 S4 shots have a 40% chance of scoring one or more hull point damages - not the implied 50%.

Actually, i don't know what the AV of the Crimson Hunter was as I'm away from my books. I was using YOUR statement about it being 36 dice rolls on average. If that's off then its actually your original statement that was wrong. The misconception I pointed out has nothing to do with the particular odds, but the fact that you don't have to run all trials (all dice rolls) to get the result, that it comes in the middle. The fact that you're now trying to points score things that have nothing to do with the mathematical principle I was talking about is why I'm taking your responses to me as increasingly adversarial. All I did was point out you were wrong and I did it politely. Why are you getting so defensive.

You're putting too much context in there which isn't present. It's very rarely that I have to piece together sentences or paragraphs due to the word choices, although in retrospect I think it's more due to the fact that I'm quite hungry and that's probably where some of my poor word choices come from. However, when you correct someone you should keep in mind that you invite others to review and correct your own statement, in particular the one you corrected. It's not being defensive, but perhaps misapprehensive about what it was you were trying to point out. Just as I wasn't implying you needed 36 shots to harm a Crimson Hunter, it does seem like you did not intend to state that you had 50% chance of harming a CH with 9 Marines (at sub-12" range), no?

" I've found that on properly set up tables I can hide my Hunters from Quad gun fire "

And if you don't get the perfect table? BOOM. Hiding is not something you can ever count on in my experience. If a gun has a 48" range, expect to take some fire from it.

So a 10 man tac squad with no special or heavy weapons, no grenades, and no rerolls have a decent chance of hurting a CH. Throw in Tac tactics, a PG, MM, and a Krak grenade, and that random Tac squad has a good chance of dropping it.

I don't know about other Eldar players, but I usually fish for 6s to handle any AV 10 fliers.

In general, I don't think the marines are throwing enough dice for this to be that great of a plan. Now Ork shootas.......

Bharring wrote:
So a 10 man tac squad with no special or heavy weapons, no grenades, and no rerolls have a decent chance of hurting a CH. Throw in Tac tactics, a PG, MM, and a Krak grenade, and that random Tac squad has a good chance of dropping it.

I don't know about other Eldar players, but I usually fish for 6s to handle any AV 10 fliers.

As you say ts the same for all flyers of Av10 - need to change all of them if its a problem.....its not an Eldar problem. certainly no reason keep the Cheese Serpent as is

I think you misunderstand. The Serpent *definitely* needs a nerf. I just want to keep the discussion in line with where it should be. Misunderstanding capabilities of the army aren't going to help reach a consensus.

And the CH is an amazing intercepter/hunter, but not a strong sustained force option, and it'll be crappy if that becomes our only option.

Well also everyone but Tyranids gets An Ageis

Also orks flyer is 2/3 the cost of ours and survives small arm fire just as well. It also is a supersonic vehicle while ours is not. And has as much damaging potential as ours in a dog fight against eachover.
every 3 flyers we have they have 41/2.
I also agree that serpents a re a bit overpowered especially taken in large amounts but i already gave solutions on how to fix that, and while Ch are great with serpents, if we loose serpents as an aiding force they fall short of what they should be able to do. Eldar need synergy and unit specialization.


tyranids - get fmc, and are less affected by most flyers. The fmc wins dog fights and is great aa with the devour guns.

 Slayer222 wrote:
Also orks flyer is 2/3 the cost of ours and survives small arm fire just as well. It also is a supersonic vehicle while ours is not. And has as much damaging potential as ours in a dog fight against eachover.
every 3 flyers we have they have 41/2.
I also agree that serpents a re a bit overpowered especially taken in large amounts but i already gave solutions on how to fix that, and while Ch are great with serpents, if we loose serpents as an aiding force they fall short of what they should be able to do. Eldar need synergy and unit specialization.


tyranids - get fmc, and are less affected by most flyers. The fmc wins dog fights and is great aa with the devour guns.

The Ork flyers are also S6, which makes them much worse at dealing with AV12 fliers.

Yes, but they kill our flyers easily.

 Slayer222 wrote:
Also orks flyer is 2/3 the cost of ours and survives small arm fire just as well. It also is a supersonic vehicle while ours is not. And has as much damaging potential as ours in a dog fight against eachover.
every 3 flyers we have they have 41/2.
I also agree that serpents a re a bit overpowered especially taken in large amounts but i already gave solutions on how to fix that, and while Ch are great with serpents, if we loose serpents as an aiding force they fall short of what they should be able to do. Eldar need synergy and unit specialization.


tyranids - get fmc, and are less affected by most flyers. The fmc wins dog fights and is great aa with the devour guns.

The CH is designed to Kill other flyers, it has Vector Strike, deadily weapons and re-rolls as well if it does not cuase damage. Wave Serpants are supposed to be TRANSPORTS not artillery/AA/AT - "I win" buttons

bit overpowered - understatment of the year...........

Yes, but they kill our flyers easily.

Better make them AV 15 then so you can;t loose any games..............

Hey if you want to give us av 15 all sides go for it, i will gladly accept it though i will call it op, i will still play with it.
though i would just rather holofields option and av 11 front/side

 Slayer222 wrote:
Hey if you want to give us av 15 all sides go for it, i will gladly accept it though i will call it op, i will still play with it.
though i would just rather holofields option and av 11 front/side

So how many mre points are you willing to pay for that - or do you want to make all your units overpowered and undercosted as seems to be the case?

The Crimson Hunter doesn't really need an armour upgrade. I'd not say no to a defensive field like the one on the Nightwing, but it's not at all in any sort of dire straits. 4 S8 shots at that price is a good deal.

Martel: like I mentioned, on-going reserves is a good thing to have.

I'd forgotton abut the Nightwing - anyone used?

The ch atleast needs the option to take vehicle upgrades.

 Mr Morden wrote:
I'd forgotton abut the Nightwing - anyone used?

Yes, it's a lovely bird. For transport reasons I've not added the tail fins, though, so it looks a bit... flat. Armament is 2 ShuriCans and 2 Bright Lances. It's got the same AV and HP as the CH, slightly cheaper, supersonic and vector dancer. Also has a titan holo field that grants Shrouded. If you have knowledge of the Imperial Aeronautica you also get +1 to jink cover save when evading. It's got not a single upgrade option what so ever. All in all, it's a very decent air superiority fighter and ground attacker. Really difficult to kill due to the high evade cover save.

What I do miss with the Eldar fighters is missiles and I miss bombs on their bombers. If you gave me a bit of free hand I could design a much more interesting Crimson Hunter than GW did, but I'd consider that a buff in the fun department rather than efficiency department, 'cause neither Nightwing nor Crimson Hunter is lacking. In fact, due to the extra evade save from IA, the Nightwing is slightly too good. Wraithfighter is abysmal, however, since due to ATSKNF and it's interaction with Terrify it is defunct in purpose. If ATSKNF didn't exist it would still be too expensive in my mind.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Slayer222 wrote:
The ch atleast needs the option to take vehicle upgrades.

Holo-field: Guess what it does
Spirit Stone: Again, fairly simplistic.
Star Engines: grants super sonic
Ghost Walker: N/A
Vectored Engines: N/A (let's say it's already got them)
Crystal Targeting Matrix: N/A

The holofields would be a thing that i would want added to them, that is the minimal to make these units atleast usable without just going lol and removing it the second a fly smashes into your windhsield.

 Slayer222 wrote:
The holofields would be a thing that i would want added to them, that is the minimal to make these units atleast usable without just going lol and removing it the second a fly smashes into your windhsield.

I assume you are giving the Dark Eldar flyers the same things...........and what are you giving to the Ork flyers?

Actually dark eldar got +1 av, and super sonic speed, night vision,, loses pulse but gains missiles, and can take a 5+ invulnerable save or cover save without jinking. They have upgrades and cost less,


Orks put out more dakka 12-24 shots and can upgrade to make it 18-36 shots. and cost less.

 Slayer222 wrote:
Actually dark eldar got +1 av, and super sonic speed, night vision,, loses pulse but gains missiles, and can take a 5+ invulnerable save or cover save without jinking. They have upgrades and cost less,


Orks put out more dakka 12-24 shots and can upgrade to make it 18-36 shots. and cost less.

Dakkajets have 6 shots, 9 if you add an extra supashoota. Also, it requires a WAAAAAGH to double the number of shots. And i'd not count on that just for some extra s6 ap4 shots cause it's a 1-use only and it gives fleet - and fleet is a few more inches of charge which are way more important usually.

Anywayz, it's interesting to watch how you write: "But Y race has X advantage! I want X for my eldar! I think that all our overpowered and undercosted stuff isn't just enough".

actually i am comparing the crap that orks have and saying eldar flyers should be better, but for more points, and i am comparing dark eldar have x, we should also have x. But i decided i am just going to use my night wings cause they are better.

 Slayer222 wrote:
actually i am comparing the crap that orks have and saying eldar flyers should be better, but for more points, and i am comparing dark eldar have x, we should also have x. But i decided i am just going to use my night wings cause they are better.

so orkse should have crap?
Crimson hunters are great. 4 S8 shots with 2 of them being lances at bs4 with rerolls to pen and a possibility to get bs5 on a mobile fairly resilient platform. They're pretty capable of downing any target the turn they enter play. I'd pay for that with my orkses without doubt.
Eldar flyers are just so outclassed by current cheeze that your codex has that you see them rarely.

Yes, cheap second hand crap. enough to fill the boards. The eldar should have quality(high points cost) and orks should have quantity(low points cost high model count).
I play all armies equally read all the books, and the army's that i don't have i borrow and trie out to have fun. I've seen the top and the bottom of most lists and while eldar have great lists the codex should have been balanced a little better. (internal and external).I know orks suck right now, but with the new dex i hope they get better so i can remove bucket full of models and watch as the army disintigrates into 1/2 or less the size and still win through mass of numbers. And while eldar are on of my top 3 armies i try to take a objective look at them and dont hate/love them without looking at the units/synergy and trying to see the balance. (ps i hate tau. Miniwargaming)(Need to watch more of their bat reps really good.)


CH, are not survivable don't give me that crap when bolters can down them.

 Slayer222 wrote:
Yes, cheap second hand crap. enough to fill the boards. The eldar should have quality(high points cost) and orks should have quantity(low points cost high model count).
I play all armies equally read all the books, and the army's that i don't have i borrow and trie out to have fun. I've seen the top and the bottom of most lists and while eldar have great lists the codex should have been balanced a little better. (internal and external).I know orks suck right now, but with the new dex i hope they get better so i can remove bucket full of models and watch as the army disintigrates into 1/2 or less the size and still win through mass of numbers. And while eldar are on of my top 3 armies i try to take a objective look at them and dont hate/love them without looking at the units/synergy and trying to see the balance. (ps i hate tau. Miniwargaming)(Need to watch more of their bat reps really good.)

I'd not say orkses are that bad atm. We just have only 2 viable lists cause of how badly 6 ed nerfed footslogas. Biker nobz or wagon rush. With this lists it's possible to compete with top armies if u're a better general - cause you need to outplay people to win with orkses.

Back to the point. Eldar have many good options. They just don't see the board cause of some cheezy options like serpents, wraithknights and cheap farseers with extremely good powers. I think that THIS should be nerfed. Try playing without them and u'll see that the army is still very strong. But at least it doesn't have that auto-win buttons.
Oh, and dark eldar allies...Eldar and dark eldar battle bros?.. That's just like suddenly becoming fine with necrons.

I do play with these units but at a minimum, i run Autarch as my hq, 3 serpents(must because i got 2 Da squads and a Fire Dragon squad), 3 war walkers, 2 fire prisms, 2 Ch, replaced by night wings, Rangers, 3 jet bikes, and that's all the model diversity i got, if i could i would get some shining spears, i want to try warp spiders, and their are a couple of other units i want to try. I will not try banshees(like mobile), and swooping hawks(they look like sissy's). (if i could get some of the dark eldar kind and sub them in than yeah i would try them.) The only reason i run 3 is because the troops are too exposed out in the open, if i could have had a falcon(no hv room) then i would only be running 2 but i can't. It usually dies anyway because i rush it forward. I have tried a full scorp list with wraith lords baking it up anr running the da's on foot but every army i played and even when switching to the other side the eldar list got demolished. I don't run 5 da in a serpent its a full squad with an exarch, the serpent in my list is a transport not a weapon with a da cost attached.

Back in 2nd, Banshees were the bee's knees. Those screaming masks of theirs paralyzed the opponent for a turn which let them chop them up with ease.
Maybe something like that but not as cheese?

I already gave my opinion on how to fix most of the units earlier on, The only thing people can't agree on is how to reduce the wave serpent, while keeping/giving the eldar some ground to air AA. Farseers aren't that bad unless in a seers council. Tyranids though tear apart a council now adays so you might see a decrease in that unit. an easy fix would be to disallow any hq but a farseer from joining them. this would get ride of the 2++ re-rolable.

People here seem to argue for arguments sake, and some of them don't really read what others post.

Eldar codex is the best codex in terms of themes, unit viability and unit diversity. It has one overpowered unit, a multitude of great units and a few flops.

Fixing a Serpent Shield, giving Banshees Acrobatic assault out of moving vehicles and giving a Falcon Skyfire/Intercept option solves most of the few issues CWE have, on both sides of the power scale.

CWE is a codex that every other codex wants to be and ought to be like.

You sir are getting an exalt, i perfectly agree with you.

(just give me a bieltan supplement now to take aspect as troops in 2 slots and i will be perfect)
(and autarch acess to the gear of that aspect)

 Araenion wrote:
People here seem to argue for arguments sake, and some of them don't really read what others post.

Eldar codex is the best codex in terms of themes, unit viability and unit diversity. It has one overpowered unit, a multitude of great units and a few flops.

Fixing a Serpent Shield, giving Banshees Acrobatic assault out of moving vehicles and giving a Falcon Skyfire/Intercept option solves most of the few issues CWE have, on both sides of the power scale.

CWE is a codex that every other codex wants to be and ought to be like.

If the CWE Codex was fixed as you suggest then yes it its as they all should be - but its not as it is now for the very reasons you state.

Fixing a Serpent Shield, yep sounds good: likely one shot, 6-12" range

Giving Banshees Acrobatic assault out of moving vehicles: yep sounds good

and giving a Falcon Skyfire/Intercept option solves most of the few issues CWE have, also make it a DT option

Their we go, we are all starting to get along and agree after days of discussion we are reaching conclusions. Too bad gw doesn't care and all this work is for naught,

Really wish we had this diversity though. I wouldn't mind if all the codexies as they update got this treatment.(look at sm they can make most of their stuff troops by taking certain hq's)

 Mr Morden wrote:

 Araenion wrote:
People here seem to argue for arguments sake, and some of them don't really read what others post.

Eldar codex is the best codex in terms of themes, unit viability and unit diversity. It has one overpowered unit, a multitude of great units and a few flops.

Fixing a Serpent Shield, giving Banshees Acrobatic assault out of moving vehicles and giving a Falcon Skyfire/Intercept option solves most of the few issues CWE have, on both sides of the power scale.

CWE is a codex that every other codex wants to be and ought to be like.

If the CWE Codex was fixed as you suggest then yes it its as they all should be - but its not as it is now for the very reasons you state.

Fixing a Serpent Shield, yep sounds good: likely one shot, 6-12" range

Giving Banshees Acrobatic assault out of moving vehicles: yep sounds good

and giving a Falcon Skyfire/Intercept option solves most of the few issues CWE have, also make it a DT option

I'd make it one-shot at 18". And keep everything else in the profile. The reason is that the Serpent spam is a problem because you have an entire army(5-6 Serpents) standing at >48" and shooting their shields, while their Jink keeps them safe from most of the return fire. Throw in some Wraithknights for heavy AT duty and counter-charge and you've got a nasty list that only few can counter. If those shots were 18", then the Serpents would have to get really close to get that kind of firepower and once you're that close with a rear AV10 vehicle, that vehicle is as good as dead, so some extra firepower released as a burst of energy sounds very fluffy and more useful than people give it credit. That would fix Serpent spam monobuild real nice.

Only thing I don't know how to fix is that silly Hemlock Wraithfighter. Making the Heavy D-scythes Torrent and having a special rule that any squad within 18" of it loses Fearless and ATSKNF and must test morale at LD -2 as long as it's within that bubble. That might make it worth it's cost, though it's still incredibly frail with AV10 all-around.

It's got more than one overpowered unit, I'm afraid. Jetseer Councils need to be banned or severely nerfed.

why?
Please don't just say nerf actually explain.

Martel732 wrote:
It's got more than one overpowered unit, I'm afraid. Jetseer Councils need to be banned or severely nerfed.

That's more of a game mechanic problem than a unit problem. Allies and re-rollable 2+ saves are the culprit, not actually the council itself. But yes, I forgot about fixing them, as I said in my previous posts, just limit the number of warlocks per Farseer to 3 and there you have it, everything is fixed.

Because 2+ and 2++ rerollable saves make the game dumb.

There is a limit to 10 warlocks per primary detachment and they are needed (even though they suck) for a fluffy guardian list. Now the best save they can get is a 4++ save and a 4+ cover save for going flat out. It only becomes a monster when you ally in the barron to give them a 2++ save and the farseers have to roll fortune. 6 rolls on a 6 table but each only gets 3 which means their will be averaging not getting the fortune power which destroys the build. not only that but the fact that the warlocks are only ld 8 they will fail their powers often. And they cost as much if not more than terminators for a chance of a 2+ save that may be re-rolled. I have offered a solution of allies cannot join a unit of warlocks which would solve a large amount of the complaints and then if you still can't beat them its your own fault.

Except with the proper casting, they can have a 3+ Cover save that is re-rollable as well....not as bad as the 2+...but still not as bad as that 2++ of the Baron.

 Arthas367 wrote:
I get it the serpent is crazy strong, half the shots, or some such but to neuter a 120+ Pts transport is ludicrous, if that's done I want vendettas, annihilation barges , and storm ravens treated the same way

Did you really just compare a Wave Serpent to a Vendetta, an annihilation barge and a Stormraven? We must be playing different games because last I checked, NONE of those vehicles were alike in any way shape or form.

The closest one, the AB, being a fast skimmer with good guns, has no transport capacity and doesn't reduce melta shots (which we pay a premium to bring) to glancing hits. And it has less shots for about the same price.

Don't even get me started on the Vendetta and the SR. They haven't been remotely close to anything like the WS since 5th edition.

The only thing that keeps the Vendetta in check is that it sucks vs Xeno troops. It's moderately efficient vs meqs because it is so cheap.

The Wave Serpent is too good against to many targets and can absorb too much firepower.

Just remove the Ignore Cover rule from the shields gun - fixed.

 L0rdF1end wrote:
Just remove the Ignore Cover rule from the shields gun - fixed.

No, because the wound spam is still super strong.

Man, I almost hate to jump in on this, built...

Let's look at the role the Wave Serpent is supposed to fill and compare to another unit from Nither codex that folks hated when it was introduced...IG Melta Vets in Valkyries.

Basic Wave Serpent ( TL Scatter Lasers, Shurican Cannon plus holo field) with 5 dire avengers = 210 pts or there about

Valkyrie (multi laser, multiple rocket pods, heavy bolters) with Melta vets is 240 pts

Can the wave serpent deal more damage than the Valkyrie? probably. Can the Dire Avengers do more damage than the vets? Probably not. Is the Eldar unit better in every way to the IG one? I don't know, maybe.

Now if we talk spam, multiply the above by 6 and the Eldar is at 1260 and the IG is at 1440. However the main cost differential here is in the squads not the transports. Honestly that is a lot of points sunk into those units. I can see where generalist list would have trouble with this the threat that this type of off balanced list would pose

Looking at it another way, with IG we could take 9 Vendettas or Valkyries for the cost of the 6 Dire Avenger/Wave Serpent squads.

So, are the Eldar units better? probably. Over powered? Yup. Game breaking? Probably not.

I guess as a gaurd player who had to deal with all the whining and Vendetta hate, I kinda sympathize with Eldar players.

At least Vendettas can't murder my list in the first turn.

Foolheart wrote:
Man, I almost hate to jump in on this, built...

Let's look at the role the Wave Serpent is supposed to fill and compare to another unit from Nither codex that folks hated when it was introduced...IG Melta Vets in Valkyries.

Basic Wave Serpent ( TL Scatter Lasers, Shurican Cannon plus holo field) with 5 dire avengers = 210 pts or there about

Valkyrie (multi laser, multiple rocket pods, heavy bolters) with Melta vets is 240 pts

Can the wave serpent deal more damage than the Valkyrie? probably. Can the Dire Avengers do more damage than the vets? Probably not. Is the Eldar unit better in every way to the IG one? I don't know, maybe.

Now if we talk spam, multiply the above by 6 and the Eldar is at 1260 and the IG is at 1440. However the main cost differential here is in the squads not the transports. Honestly that is a lot of points sunk into those units. I can see where generalist list would have trouble with this the threat that this type of off balanced list would pose

Looking at it another way, with IG we could take 9 Vendettas or Valkyries for the cost of the 6 Dire Avenger/Wave Serpent squads.

So, are the Eldar units better? probably. Over powered? Yup. Game breaking? Probably not.

I guess as a gaurd player who had to deal with all the whining and Vendetta hate, I kinda sympathize with Eldar players.

So one overpowered unit means there should be another - pretty crappy logic - also as noted the Wave Serpents start on the table

Here's an interesting idea. It seems to me that people are MOSTLY concerned with spamming Wave Serpents. Having a few on the table is good. It fills a niche that Eldar need. Spamming them like crazy, however, is unbalanced.

WHAT IF...

Wave Serpents weren't Dedicated Transports. What if they were a normal Troops Choice (non-scoring of course).

Thoughts?

@Mr. Morden,

Not "one overpowered unit deserves another", just a realization that almost every new codex has something insanely good. I suspect soon there will be something in the 'Nid 'dex that folks figure out that we will all be complaining about. And if not, maybe when Gaurd (or whatever they are going to call it now) rolls into town with a new 'dex in March there will be something in there that folks hate to play.

But there is history here (to name a few):
Vendetta
Riptides
Wave Serpents
...fill in the blanks...

We can go on and on complaining about OP units, doesn't really change the fact that GW is going to do this every release or two and it will force everyone to adapt.

To me I have more of an issue with the core rules, or BRB. I think they are sloppily written. I wish the folks at GW would get serious about creating an indexed simple to read rules set / meta. I think they need to understand that the game has grown beyound its beer and pretezel beginnings.

Any woo, just my two (lengthy) cents.

Where is the marine or tyranid OP unit?

TFC
Tyranids seem pretty well ballanced outside troops. Just a few termagaunt units and mc spam is sad and dull to play with or against.

Making serpents into non-DT does not work because it is the only DT in the army. There's no cheap back up. Also, placing a strong main battle tank in troop slot is a bit silly and would likely cause more problems than solve them since that means you dont get the avenger tax.

Giving banshees assault vehicle through acrobatics is also a bad idea - how will you support them? These are specialized anti-marine models, they underperform against teq and they underperform against geq. What purpose does the harlequins play? How will you combine banshees with scorpions?
Also this isn't a solution, only part solution, you still need to give them grenades. And lets face it, ever since they lost ap2 in melee they aren't all that hot and probably needs further point reduction. I havent run the math on them in sixth, but in fifth scorpions were only slightly worse than the banshees against sv3+ and since then they've gained initiative order powerfist but lost 1s on 1 attack each and lost out on model point discount.

Martel732 wrote:
At least Vendettas can't murder my list in the first turn.

This is bs playing martyr, that's not what makes the serpents too strong. If you can't handle 24 s6 and 24 s7 shots disperesed among at most 6 units turn 1 that you get SAVES against then you need to rethink your list building.

If the wave serpent switched places with falcon it would be fairly reasonable, still strong but not to the point where it is game breaking.

 Mahtamori wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
At least Vendettas can't murder my list in the first turn.

This is bs playing martyr, that's not what makes the serpents too strong. If you can't handle 24 s6 and 24 s7 shots disperesed among at most 6 units turn 1 that you get SAVES against then you need to rethink your list building.

If the wave serpent switched places with falcon it would be fairly reasonable, still strong but not to the point where it is game breaking.

Unless I am playing with my Sisters and getting 6+ Invulnerable what save do all the transports get against the Cheese shield - cover - nope? Anything else - nope. Oh and then everyone's walking - towards the Eldar Fort in the far corner with their cheese shields range 60"

I think serpents only become difficult to deal with when they are fielded in numbers of 4/5+ if I'm honest; I tend to find that after shooting the shield the Wave Serpent is rather east to take out (thanks in part to the large amounts of Ignore Cover weaponry out there and the general fragility of AV12).

I'd be wary of nerfing the Wave Serpent too hard, in case it creates an even more "spammy" environment for it than there is now. If you make it that 1 or 2 Wave Serpents can't really get the job done, it would only really encourage people to either take even more than they do now (in other words, discourage them from taking any less) and consequently, further polarise the Eldar meta-game in the direction of the Seer Council lists.

Again, the main problem, as I see it, is that Wave Serpents are only particularly crippling when fielded in large numbers so by nerfing them, it propagates an attitude of "take 7 or don't take any at all!".

Iranna.

 Iranna wrote:
I think serpents only become difficult to deal with when they are fielded in numbers of 4/5+ if I'm honest; I tend to find that after shooting the shield the Wave Serpent is rather east to take out (thanks in part to the large amounts of Ignore Cover weaponry out there and the general fragility of AV12).

I'd be wary of nerfing the Wave Serpent too hard, in case it creates an even more "spammy" environment for it than there is now. If you make it that 1 or 2 Wave Serpents can't really get the job done, it would only really encourage people to either take even more than they do now (in other words, discourage them from taking any less) and consequently, further polarise the Eldar meta-game in the direction of the Seer Council lists.

Again, the main problem, as I see it, is that Wave Serpents are only particularly crippling when fielded in large numbers so by nerfing them, it propagates an attitude of "take 7 or don't take any at all!".

Iranna.

This was basically what I was getting at by suggesting removing it from the DT slot. You've only got 6 slots to work with in Troops total, and you need something to take Objectives. So two squads of Avengers / Guardians and a squad of jetbikes... and now you've only got 3 slots left to use for Wave Serpents. Sure, you could still take 5 Serpents, but now you've only got one squad on the table that can take any objectives.

Murrdox wrote:


This was basically what I was getting at by suggesting removing it from the DT slot. You've only got 6 slots to work with in Troops total, and you need something to take Objectives. So two squads of Avengers / Guardians and a squad of jetbikes... and now you've only got 3 slots left to use for Wave Serpents. Sure, you could still take 5 Serpents, but now you've only got one squad on the table that can take any objectives.

I agree, messing with their FOC placement, or simply limiting the number a person can take would be the best option in my mind.

I feel it would be the least 'invasive' change suggested thusfar.

Iranna.

Murrdox, that's a terrible idea, unless implemented across ALL armies for ALL dedicated transports. It's the only dedicated transport, meaning that it's function plays a key role in making a very large amount of Eldar armies work. Stick them in just Troop section and watch Eldar viable army builds dwindle. Combined arms work just as poorly in this edition as it did in the previous one, so all it would accomplish is to make more variety in the type of grav tank you're facing

 Mr Morden wrote:

 Mahtamori wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
At least Vendettas can't murder my list in the first turn.

This is bs playing martyr, that's not what makes the serpents too strong. If you can't handle 24 s6 and 24 s7 shots disperesed among at most 6 units turn 1 that you get SAVES against then you need to rethink your list building.

If the wave serpent switched places with falcon it would be fairly reasonable, still strong but not to the point where it is game breaking.

Unless I am playing with my Sisters and getting 6+ Invulnerable what save do all the transports get against the Cheese shield - cover - nope? Anything else - nope. Oh and then everyone's walking - towards the Eldar Fort in the far corner with their cheese shields range 60"

And how do you deal with Blood Angels or Parking Lots, which have large volume of fire, significantly better AP and higher strength based off of vehicles which are harder to glance? How do you deal with someone who's got a large volume of Devastators? If the alpha strike is what you have a problem with when it comes to Eldar, you're SOL when it comes to this game, 'cause it can be done in equal or better quality in just about any 6th edition army except for maybe Tyranids. What I can agree with is that it is hard to handle this volume of sustained fire coming from a large number of highly mobile platforms.

And of course Vendettas can't be nasty in the same way turn 1, but that's just because they aren't allowed on the table that turn. Which incidentally triggers a different kind of "fix" to the problem if Vendettas are fine due to this fact - just make all Eldar grav tanks Type: Flyer (Hover) - fluffy and removes turn 1 alpha strike. Not that it is a good fix, just saying...

 L0rdF1end wrote:
Just remove the Ignore Cover rule from the shields gun - fixed.

Surely, the ignore cover doesn't do an awful lot for the shield unless it shoots vehicles as it is ap - ?

Meaning everyone gets their armour saves against it, which are frequently better than the cover save unless you have stealth or shrouded and are not a marine.

Yes I am an eldar player, but in a 1500pt list I will only ever field 2-3 serpents maximum and each one has a 10man + squad in it unless they are fire dragons.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Murrdox wrote:
Here's an interesting idea. It seems to me that people are MOSTLY concerned with spamming Wave Serpents. Having a few on the table is good. It fills a niche that Eldar need. Spamming them like crazy, however, is unbalanced.

WHAT IF...

Wave Serpents weren't Dedicated Transports. What if they were a normal Troops Choice (non-scoring of course).

Thoughts?

No, because then Eldar would have no dedicated transports options.

 Mahtamori wrote:
Murrdox, that's a terrible idea, unless implemented across ALL armies for ALL dedicated transports. It's the only dedicated transport, meaning that it's function plays a key role in making a very large amount of Eldar armies work. Stick them in just Troop section and watch Eldar viable army builds dwindle. Combined arms work just as poorly in this edition as it did in the previous one, so all it would accomplish is to make more variety in the type of grav tank you're facing

 Mr Morden wrote:

 Mahtamori wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
At least Vendettas can't murder my list in the first turn.

This is bs playing martyr, that's not what makes the serpents too strong. If you can't handle 24 s6 and 24 s7 shots disperesed among at most 6 units turn 1 that you get SAVES against then you need to rethink your list building.

If the wave serpent switched places with falcon it would be fairly reasonable, still strong but not to the point where it is game breaking.

Unless I am playing with my Sisters and getting 6+ Invulnerable what save do all the transports get against the Cheese shield - cover - nope? Anything else - nope. Oh and then everyone's walking - towards the Eldar Fort in the far corner with their cheese shields range 60"

And how do you deal with Blood Angels or Parking Lots, which have large volume of fire, significantly better AP and higher strength based off of vehicles which are harder to glance? How do you deal with someone who's got a large volume of Devastators? If the alpha strike is what you have a problem with when it comes to Eldar, you're SOL when it comes to this game, 'cause it can be done in equal or better quality in just about any 6th edition army except for maybe Tyranids. What I can agree with is that it is hard to handle this volume of sustained fire coming from a large number of highly mobile platforms.

And of course Vendettas can't be nasty in the same way turn 1, but that's just because they aren't allowed on the table that turn. Which incidentally triggers a different kind of "fix" to the problem if Vendettas are fine due to this fact - just make all Eldar grav tanks Type: Flyer (Hover) - fluffy and removes turn 1 alpha strike. Not that it is a good fix, just saying...

The Eldar in my Codex get huge amounts of good AT weapons - it just the Wave Serpent gets everything in a huge smelly slice of cheese

Eldar need it as a DT option, just not with the artillery capabilities. Moving it to Troops means that you could do cheaper tank spam, but couldn't do any real mechanized infantry. So we'd keep the cheese, but lose the fluff. Worst of both worlds.

Has anyone tried bringing them down to a reasonable price for the only DT and removing the shooting attack, and seeing who that plays? My brother plays eldar, and all he wanted was a DT that didn't cost 200 points.

 Co'tor Shas wrote:
Has anyone tried bringing them down to a reasonable price for the only DT and removing the shooting attack, and seeing who that plays? My brother plays eldar, and all he wanted was a DT that didn't cost 200 points.

It doesn't.

It costs 145 typically.

Iranna.

 Iranna wrote:

 Co'tor Shas wrote:
Has anyone tried bringing them down to a reasonable price for the only DT and removing the shooting attack, and seeing who that plays? My brother plays eldar, and all he wanted was a DT that didn't cost 200 points.

It doesn't.

It costs 145 typically.

Iranna.

Well yes, I was exaggerating, but still 150 point DT while most cost 40-50. Even the devilfish (which is ridiculously overpriced) 'only' costs 80.

Side by Side of serpent and devilfish.
Bs 3 Av 12/11/10 2 gun drones, burst cannon- may take 8pt 2 seeker missiles, and 10 pt twin-linked smart missile system(replace gun drones)
Bs 4 av 12/11/10 has fast Cannon, catapult, shield, 5pt weapon upgrade, 10 pt cannon upgrade
Holo vs pods: same points cost, pods are better.(don't require movement.

Burst vs Scatter laser- 18" 5/5 heavy 4. 36" 6/6 heavy 4 laser lock. Burst cannon is better as a weapon unless you need increased range or twin linking.(all/most of devil's weapons are already twin linked

Seeker, str 8, ap3, 1 use 72" x2
Smart system- 30"- 5/5 hv 4, homing, ignore cover (can shoot out of los)
2x twin-linked pulse carbine- 18" 5/5 Assault 2, pinning.

Cannon 24" 6/5 bladestorm assault 3
Catapult 12" 4/5 bladestorm Assault 2

Comparing these two serpent has the advantage of +1 to side armour, +1 bs(tau have more twinlinked), The shield can be compared to the smart system, but it has half the range 1 less strengh 5 ap instead of - and can hit outside of line of sight, the serpent has +.5 hits but it is still a gamble. The shield adds a bit of a life span when not being used.
Serpents guns are usually a little bit longer range. Without shield, the devil can put out a higher amount of shots with a burst and smart system.

For 35 points less they do a lot if the shield was invalidated they would be better.
Full upgrade as i described The serpent is about *150 and the tau are rounded to *100. The serpent if the shield was only a shield would have to go down by at least 25 pts-40 to be the defensive version of the devil fish. And the scatter laser would only e affective at 24" range and even then it is only twinlinking 3 shots from a shurikan cannon.


And that's comparing to the supposedly over priced devil fish.

Wave Serpent is AV12/12/10. You didn't mention Devilfish Hull Points(don't know how many there are), it's also a Fast Skimmer, which means a whole damn lot when it's a DT, since your passengers are where they need to be, not just chilling back in your backyard. That's also why Holofields are better in all cases except first turn.

Scatterlaser is a MUCH better weapon. There's no comparison. It twin-links a BS4 vehicle, it has 36" range on a Fast Skimmer chassis and is S6.

Why would you want an 18" gun on a slow-moving vehicle that gets an upgraded cover save if it STANDS STILL. And is a Dedicated Transport, so your passengers, if they're inside, are also standing still doing nothing.

All in all, Devilfish seems like an incredibly bad DT. Maybe not from the profile, but in-game, judging by its stats, it's terrible.

where are access points located and how easy or hard is it to disembark from the transport?

They both have 3 hull points, and the laser lock is only mediocre if their was no serpent shield as i said.
The accesses points are at the back
Bull on the holofields being better, disruption pods are always better because it is always a +1 to cover save while holo-fields make you move for the save. They should both be moving but it is better if you get immobilized or if the other person gets fist turn but if not it is then equal
Being fast only allows it to fire more weapons and or move farther in the the shooting phase.
ps if their is no shield the best range for the serpent would be 24" or the twinlinked scatter laser would be wasted, which is 6" farther away than the fish. The fish also doesnot require line of sight.

So, one has access to slightly better weapons and is faster while the other is cheaper, ignores line of sight and murders light infantry if in range.

Wave Serpent changes from 4th/5th editions are:
Energy Shield -> Serpent Shield
BS3 -> BS4
115pts -> 120pts
Assuming Scatter Laser. Shuriken Cannon and Missile Launcher are pricier now while Star Cannon and Bright Lance are slightly cheaper.

Do note, in 5th edition and earliest 6th edition, the Wave Serpent wasn't bad, just not good enough. Question: does the ballistics skill increase make the transport viable when compared to 4th edition codex? (i.e. weapon prices more balanced and no shots on the shield at all)

 Slayer222 wrote:
They both have 3 hull points, and the laser lock is only mediocre if their was no serpent shield as i said.
The accesses points are at the back
Bull on the holofields being better, disruption pods are always better because it is always a +1 to cover save while holo-fields make you move for the save. They should both be moving but it is better if you get immobilized or if the other person gets fist turn but if not it is then equal
Being fast only allows it to fire more weapons and or move farther in the the shooting phase.
ps if their is no shield the best range for the serpent would be 24" or the twinlinked scatter laser would be wasted, which is 6" farther away than the fish. The fish also doesnot require line of sight.

It does not require LoS only if you trade the gun drone for a SMS for 10 points. Devilfish is good at transporting units (and it has the same sort of back+sides access points as the rino). It has -1 side armour and -1BS compared to the serpent. It also does not have access to the same level of weaponry as the serpent (all S5 AP5 whereas the serpent has access to anti-tank weaponry), and does not have the shield. It's also massively over-costed (before anyone complains about gun-line tau, just look at how much it costs to be mobile).

I thought Disruption Pods worked only if you didn't move?

 Araenion wrote:
I thought Disruption Pods worked only if you didn't move?

No, they give stealth in all but name (it was even FAQed to that effect, so if you can give stealth to a vehicle, it can benefit from both).

Shoot, then it's definitely the better of the two.

The Devilfish's weapon systems aren't nearly as dangerous as the Wave Serpent.

Martel732 wrote:
The Devilfish's weapon systems aren't nearly as dangerous as the Wave Serpent.

Yeah, the devilfish can takes:
A burst cannon
Either 2 gun drons or a TL SMS
And can buy two seekers

Whereas the serpent takes:
A TL Shuriken catapult or a shurikin cannon and
A TL shurikin cannon or
A TL Vright Lance or
A LT Scatter Laser or
A TL Starcannon or
A TL Missle launcher

co'tor i explained those differences previously please read information that was already written.
As for the list of weapons yes lots of options but you can only choose one.
And as i said "if" they removed the shield then we were comparing the viability.

 Slayer222 wrote:
co'tor i explained those differences previously please read information that was already written.
As for the list of weapons yes lots of options but you can only choose one.
And as i said "if" they removed the shield then we were comparing the viability.

I did read it, which differences are you talking about? Also I specifically said or. I was mostly complaining that instead of reducing their price to something feasible, they just made it OP. The tau and eldar were in the same boat before the serpent got it's shooting attack. I was using the devilfish as an example as a cheaper transport, but the 'fish is still overpriced. I wish they just brought down the prices to a feasible level for both of them instead of making the serpent shield the monstrosity it is now.

Don't forget the extra hull point, and the fact the Wave Serpent that doesn't fire it's shields downgrades penetrating hits to glances on a 2+. Kind of a lot of where the points cost comes from.

I think what he's saying is that, sans the Shield, we pay half again the stupidly overcosted Devilfish, for marginally better. With the Shield, of course, we get a broken long-range gunship. Which isn't what it should be.

Bharring wrote:
I think what he's saying is that, sans the Shield, we pay half again the stupidly overcosted Devilfish, for marginally better. With the Shield, of course, we get a broken long-range gunship. Which isn't what it should be.

Exactly. If they just didn't make the shield have it's shooting attack, and just decreased the serpents price it would have been fine, but nooo, GW could never do something as simple as that. They have to make it have a stupidly OP weapon INSTEAD OF THE VERY SIMPLE SOLUTION OF JUST LOWERING IT'S POINTS COST! mutter, mutter...

srsface
Their is no difference in hull points they both have 3

 Slayer222 wrote:
srsface
Their is no difference in hull points they both have 3

Sorry, had it confused with another unit.

My brain is rotting, swear to God.

Even when its not using its hugely overpowered shield gun, the ability to ignore pentrating hits is powerful - especially for a dedicated transport.

Even if it destroyed by glancing hits, its therefore much less likely to suffer a shaken or stunned result which has major effects on any passengers that survivie or even disembark.

Yes, but few people bring meltas or other weapons that can easily penetrate it, so usually even without the shield (for me 80%) it goes down to glances. And in an eddition where glances are the best way to go, (increase mid-high strengh shots), because meltas usually don't give enought shots to be widely effective. Its why their is a rise in plasma weaponry in most meta's.

 Slayer222 wrote:
Yes, but few people bring meltas or other weapons that can easily penetrate it, so usually even without the shield (for me 80%) it goes down to glances. And in an eddition where glances are the best way to go, (increase mid-high strengh shots), because meltas usually don't give enought shots to be widely effective. Its why their is a rise in plasma weaponry in most meta's.

That maybe because its has good AV for a dedicated transport - I normaly see lots of good armour piercing weapons - from lascannons to melta guns - look especially at the power of the Dark Eldar, Eldar and Tau L/R anti-tank guns. Perhas the most common transport used is a Rhino variant (Loyalist and Chaos Marines, Sororitas) - weaker than even an unshielded wave serpent. I see lots and lots of meltas in play myself - both in my own Sisters army and virtualy every Marine army - especially in drop pods

Maybe you should try counting serpents as a devilfish for a few games to feel the difference and than write what's better.

I did something similar, i tried to never shoot the shield, discount the shield and pretend it didn't exist, and tried replacing it with devilfish(however it was a 145 point devilfish...) As a devil fish it performed slightly less but was still usefull for hiding my troops and taking out enemies behind blocking terrain.So other than being overly expensive, and slighly easier to kill, it didn't really affect me much. without the shields defense it seems overcosted by about 30 point to 60. With the shields as solely a defense item it is over costed by 15-30 points.

 Slayer222 wrote:
I did something similar, i tried to never shoot the shield, discount the shield and pretend it didn't exist, and tried replacing it with devilfish(however it was a 145 point devilfish...) As a devil fish it performed slightly less but was still usefull for hiding my troops and taking out enemies behind blocking terrain.So other than being overly expensive, and slighly easier to kill, it didn't really affect me much. without the shields defense it seems overcosted by about 30 point to 60. With the shields as solely a defense item it is over costed by 15-30 points.

Its interesting that you would find it feels overcosted without the shield gun mode, I was comparing it to the Falcon rather than the Devilfish.

At the 145pt range the Serpent (with defence only shield) is packing a twin linked heavy, Holo and Cannon, 2+ pen ignore and 10 capacity.
At the 145pt range (guessed, can't remember the Falcons cost exactly) the Falcon is Pulse Laser, Heavy, Cannon and 6 Capacity.

The Serpent would have a little less firepower but more durability and most importantly due to DT status be available without giving up a heavy slot.

It seems about right to me, it's greater availability balancing out it's greater cost compared to it's punch.

I think the Falcon should also be a Dedicated transport - maybe only for Aspect warriors?

The importance of the anti-glance shield is pretty huge- not only less likely to simply blow up but ignoring the effects on passengers from the 1-3 results on the vehicle damage table is extremely powerful - especially if you have weapons like D-sycthes. Normally a 1-3 result means no shooting for them for their next turn even if they get out or the vehicle is destroyed. That can be a game changer.............with the Wave Serpent having both the shield and the Spirit Stones upgrade means they are extremely likely to still function...............

I find the Shields to fit both roles it is intended for a bit too well as an Eldar player, and there is probably where the balance comes from.

The shield is automatically up first turn, where we have to worry the most about survivability due to not counting as having 'moved' in the prior turn. Add that to it's offensive firepower in all subsequent turns and that is where it becomes a bit over the top.

I recommend making the shield a single-shot system with perhaps a reduction to 36-48" and leaving the survivability mode active in all but the turn it fired it's once-only shot. It keeps it's role as a durable DT, but it doesn't become the godly gunship except for a single alpha-strike. Just my 2c off of the experiences I've had with my Serpents.

The Falcon is a bad comparison, not because it is dissimilar, but because it is not a very well realized tank. Put simply, it's too expensive. The Nightspinner or Fire Prism are both particularly better value, being more specialized, harder hitting, cheaper and only lacking transportation - which isn't exactly something you want to do with a Falcon anyway.

Proposed fixes:

Wave Serpent.
Shield reverts to 4th edition style.
Assault Vehicle.

Falcon.
Dedicated Transport for whichever models it can transport.
Assault Vehicle.

 Mr Morden wrote:
I think the Falcon should also be a Dedicated transport - maybe only for Aspect warriors?

Not necessary. Guardians do not come in packs of 6 or fewer models and Wraithguards are Bulky. Only "concern" is with Warlocks, but those aren't very good value off their bikes and Conceal/Reveal can't be used on a Falcon or from a Falcon.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I should probably add that having access to a form of assault vehicle is necessary to make mechanized melee builds viable. These builds need to have a full range spectrum and not only be limited to Banshees, because frankly you can't design a codex around killing Space Marines only - which is what the vocal Space Marine players are complaining about currently, that the current xenos codexes are designed with Marines as the imaginary opponent to be balanced against (not with).

There really should be a rule against taking a DT that the unit selecting it can't fit in...

Wait what? There isn't? I guess 'cause of Combat Tactics, but... I honestly missed this one.

 Mahtamori wrote:
The Falcon is a bad comparison, not because it is dissimilar, but because it is not a very well realized tank. Put simply, it's too expensive. The Nightspinner or Fire Prism are both particularly better value, being more specialized, harder hitting, cheaper and only lacking transportation - which isn't exactly something you want to do with a Falcon anyway.

Maybe, I find the Falcon to be pretty good but in the new Dex simply overshadowed by the vastly superior Serpent. You are paying Predator Annihilator points for a unit with say a Bright Lance and Pulse Laser, similar survivability but far superior mobility. Alternatively you could load it up with say Scatter Laser and Cannon and you have yourself a pretty tasty Gunboat that can engage all manner of targets.

All this and you have the ability to drop off a small squad of Aspect Warriors or Rangers along your route some of which are scoring units. I agree Eldar need an assault vehicle but I would be very wary of making the Falcon available as a DT, having one MBT troop transport is bad enough without adding a second.

What Predators have you been fielding, that cost so much? Straight las preds are only 140. That's 3 lascannon shots (s9 48"), one of which is twin linked, with av13.

The Brightlance Falcon runs 160 (no ghost walk). 2 s8 48" shots, and 1 s8 lance at 36", but it can move 12" (no twin link).

Dakka Falcon (no ghost walk) runs 170, but can only fire 2 weapons if it moves 12, and only gets all 3 weapons at 24".

Las Pred has slightly better shooting, I would say, than its equivalent (lance falcon).

Las Pred has about the same survivability (av13 is huge, but so is jink, but then the Pred can stay a bit further away)

Falcon is more maneuverable.

About fair, slight bang for buck advantage laspred, IMO.

Non-fast predators are actually kinda hard to use. Especially with all this LoS blocking terrain everyone says should be all over tables.

Everyone says, but who actually plays with that much line of sight blocking terrain at home, or at tournaments. (should is not Is)

Line of sight blocking terrain is really hard to accomplish, I've found. I'm trying hard to make terrain that makes sense for our board, but all I come up with is area terrain or terrain that blocks for infantry. For Predators it's going to be hard to hide and for Falcon-chassis it's even worse.

The Falcon is a DT for the Corsair codex. Granted, I run them in that codex as a troop choice main battle tank (with ShuriCan equipped Corsair inside), but it's not so ridiculous. Maybe the big thing is a functional Holo-Field.
Maybe Holo-Field needs to be nerfed slightly and only provide Stealth (the difference? This would mean that you don't get higher save during Night-Fighting and you can't stack additional protection on it) at a slightly more premium price.

Holo fields don't need a nerf they are worst than the tau disruption pods.

But is that a decent comparison? I find Holo-fields to be mandatory for all Eldar skimmers, it's simply that good.

However, when someone spams serpents they usually don't use holofields. And it is better the fewer vehicles you have because they will be more focused targeted.

Corsairs also pay a boatload more for a Falcon...

Eldar skimmers, aside from the Serpent, aren't very durable. The only av13 available is a 2500 pt walker super (super) heavy. Av12 is great on a flyer, where most decent weapons need 6s to hit, but on a Fast Skimmer, all they get is jink, which makes them fairly easy to kill. Holofields help with this, but only improve the save by 1 (conditionally).

Remember that, while Jink is good, all a non skimmer needs is a little terrain or an interveining model for the same save. Both of which are very easy to do against most targets.

Holofields rock because it turns the standard 2/3 chance of a pen going through to just 1/2. So instead of pens doing damage more often than not, they instead reduce it to 50/50. Its a hedge that takes the larger skimmers into moderately-survivable territory. That its pointed the same for a tiny Vyper Jet bike as a Falcon MBT is odd, but if it were reasonable for the Vyper it'd be a steal for the Falcon.

Also note that, even with the holofield, and the laspred sitting in the open, it still eats either Falcon for breakfast 1-to-1.