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Martel732 wrote:
"You're insinuating that the Wave Serpent as-is should cost as much as a MONOLITH? Really? "

It certainly needs to cost more or do less. Nothing else is acceptable. They are a ridiculously undercosted unit; worse than the Vendetta due to their near immortality.

I don't really think they're IMMORTAL at all... at least not much more immortal than any other Skimmer. Tau have the same issue, and some of their Skimmers are AV13, which can be even more difficult to kill.

It's worth noting that a Hammerhead costs about the same as a Wave Serpent with a Scatter Laser.

The Hammerhead can put out 4 30" S5 AP5 Ignores Cover, Twin Linked shots, on top of a 72" range S10 AP1 shot or a S6 AP4 large blast. That's pretty comparable to a Wave Serpent, and that's without any upgrades of any kind. Instead of a 72" weapon and a 30" weapon, the Wave Serpent has a 36" weapon and a 60" weapon.

Murrdox wrote:
You're insinuating that the Wave Serpent as-is should cost as much as a MONOLITH? Really?

Uh. No. I'm insinuating that you MUST buy a squad to be able to buy a Wave Serpent. So the cost of the usual loadout is 145 + 65 or 130 + 65 without Holofields. Because they are so powerful at shooting, people keep forgetting that it's meant to be primarily a transport. I play one or two Serpents at the most, because I like versatility and diversity, both of which are a plenty in our Codex. If those Serpents were 160-180 points, I wouldn't use them, which means I wouldn't use squads inside them, which means my army and the Eldar codex would be that much more bland. Nobody wants that, I think. What people want is for a DT to actually be a DT, not a HS choice with a troop tax.

Murrdox wrote:
I could be on board with this change. I think 18" is a little harsh though. I think 36" is a good middle-ground personally. If you're within 36" to fire the shield, you're within range of most of your opponent's weapons to be counter-attacked. With a 15 point point reduction you could argue 18" though.

The point is to use it as a DT for your Wraithguard, Scorpions, Avengers, Guardians, Reapers. With an 18" range shield, Serpent spam would be done for. Nobody fears 4 TL S6 AP6 shots. Without their long-range S7, Serpents are offensively as fearsome as a Chimera, This way, they'd still be able to do their main job, transporting troops to where they need to be and then start using their shields offensively, once their cargo is where it needs to be. So what if they die? They're transports, they transported, their main job is over. Then again, 145 points for a transport that's actually a transport with some mid-strength firepower thrown in, is a bit too much. So I proposed a cost reduction due to the loss of range and through that, the loss of survivability.

One other thing people forget. And that is the fact that Eldar really don't have any dedicated anti-air outside our own paper flyer. If you don't want to use a CH, you need to either have Serpents or some Warp Spiders with a Farseer Guiding them. If you take away the Serpent Shield's range, you take away it's ability to damage air. That means we even more desperately need something to kill those Drakes and Ravens, otherwise we'd again have to spam Spiders or Hunters in our lists, to even have a chance, which also leads to uninteresting lists.

So I propose you give Skyfire and/or Intercept to the Falcon's turret-mounted weapons for 15 points. Why that wasn't done in the first place, I have no idea.

Murrdox wrote:
Death Mission is terrible, but I actually like Mind War and Eldritch Storm. I've used Mind War successfully on a riptide before, that was really fun. I've also gotten it off against a Hive Tyrant.

I can't think of any situation where I'd rather have either of those instead of Prescience, Forewaring, Misfortune, Perfect Timing or Scrier's Gaze. If Farseers were limited to just Runes of Fate, they'd be somewhat decent. Since they're thankfully not, I really can't think of any situation where I'd find any RoF powers useful other than the usual suspects(Fortune, Doom and Guide).

P.S. What you said about the Hammerhead. It's a similar level of firepower, but Hammerhead isn't Fast, doesn't have Holofields, doesn't have Serpent Shield(it does have AV13, though, so that's balancing each other out, I suppose) and MOST IMPORTANTLY: Isn't a DT, so can only take 3 per detachment and if you do, you're gimping yourself by not taking other HS choices. That's the difference. If the Wave Serpent was a HS choice, it'd be a very good one, but I doubt people would think it's so OP as they do now.

Simply 'giving' the Shield Skyfire would go a long way towards balancing it, as then it would snapshot at any non-flyers(/skimmers)... Doesn't feel fluffy, but the Shield would go from killing about 1 marine/ round to about 1 every 3 rounds. I don't really like that solution (goes a long ways towards balance, but doesn't feel any more fluffy), but it would be a very strong nerf to it's shooting.. .

And do people really think it's as strong per model as the Monolith? Certainly more powerful per point, but not nearly as powerful per model.

Murrdox wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
"You're insinuating that the Wave Serpent as-is should cost as much as a MONOLITH? Really? "

It certainly needs to cost more or do less. Nothing else is acceptable. They are a ridiculously undercosted unit; worse than the Vendetta due to their near immortality.

I don't really think they're IMMORTAL at all... at least not much more immortal than any other Skimmer. Tau have the same issue, and some of their Skimmers are AV13, which can be even more difficult to kill.

It's worth noting that a Hammerhead costs about the same as a Wave Serpent with a Scatter Laser.

The Hammerhead can put out 4 30" S5 AP5 Ignores Cover, Twin Linked shots, on top of a 72" range S10 AP1 shot or a S6 AP4 large blast. That's pretty comparable to a Wave Serpent, and that's without any upgrades of any kind. Instead of a 72" weapon and a 30" weapon, the Wave Serpent has a 36" weapon and a 60" weapon.

The Hammerhand takes up Heavy Support slots, doesn't have a Shield and can't transport troops.

Think about it: you just said that it's fine that an Eldar transport has the same firepower as a Tau MBT. Do you not see anything wrong with that?

 Araenion wrote:

Murrdox wrote:
You're insinuating that the Wave Serpent as-is should cost as much as a MONOLITH? Really?

Uh. No. I'm insinuating that you MUST buy a squad to be able to buy a Wave Serpent. So the cost of the usual loadout is 145 + 65 or 130 + 65 without Holofields. Because they are so powerful at shooting, people keep forgetting that it's meant to be primarily a transport. I play one or two Serpents at the most, because I like versatility and diversity, both of which are a plenty in our Codex. If those Serpents were 160-180 points, I wouldn't use them, which means I wouldn't use squads inside them, which means my army and the Eldar codex would be that much more bland. Nobody wants that, I think. What people want is for a DT to actually be a DT, not a HS choice with a troop tax.

Murrdox wrote:
I could be on board with this change. I think 18" is a little harsh though. I think 36" is a good middle-ground personally. If you're within 36" to fire the shield, you're within range of most of your opponent's weapons to be counter-attacked. With a 15 point point reduction you could argue 18" though.

The point is to use it as a DT for your Wraithguard, Scorpions, Avengers, Guardians, Reapers. With an 18" range shield, Serpent spam would be done for. Nobody fears 4 TL S6 AP6 shots. Without their long-range S7, Serpents are offensively as fearsome as a Chimera, This way, they'd still be able to do their main job, transporting troops to where they need to be and then start using their shields offensively, once their cargo is where it needs to be. So what if they die? They're transports, they transported, their main job is over. Then again, 145 points for a transport that's actually a transport with some mid-strength firepower thrown in, is a bit too much. So I proposed a cost reduction due to the loss of range and through that, the loss of survivability.

One other thing people forget. And that is the fact that Eldar really don't have any dedicated anti-air outside our own paper flyer. If you don't want to use a CH, you need to either have Serpents or some Warp Spiders with a Farseer Guiding them. If you take away the Serpent Shield's range, you take away it's ability to damage air. That means we even more desperately need something to kill those Drakes and Ravens, otherwise we'd again have to spam Spiders or Hunters in our lists, to even have a chance, which also leads to uninteresting lists.

So I propose you give Skyfire and/or Intercept to the Falcon's turret-mounted weapons for 15 points. Why that wasn't done in the first place, I have no idea.

Murrdox wrote:
Death Mission is terrible, but I actually like Mind War and Eldritch Storm. I've used Mind War successfully on a riptide before, that was really fun. I've also gotten it off against a Hive Tyrant.

I can't think of any situation where I'd rather have either of those instead of Prescience, Forewaring, Misfortune, Perfect Timing or Scrier's Gaze. If Farseers were limited to just Runes of Fate, they'd be somewhat decent. Since they're thankfully not, I really can't think of any situation where I'd find any RoF powers useful other than the usual suspects(Fortune, Doom and Guide).

P.S. What you said about the Hammerhead. It's a similar level of firepower, but Hammerhead isn't Fast, doesn't have Holofields, doesn't have Serpent Shield(it does have AV13, though, so that's balancing each other out, I suppose) and MOST IMPORTANTLY: Isn't a DT, so can only take 3 per detachment and if you do, you're gimping yourself by not taking other HS choices. That's the difference. If the Wave Serpent was a HS choice, it'd be a very good one, but I doubt people would think it's so OP as they do now.

Great post. I agree with pretty much everything you said. I'm actually playing a game against my Tyranids friend tomorrow with the new codex, and he's probably going to bring a Crone and two flying Tyrants. I haven't dealt with that many simultaneous fliers with my Eldar before, so it'll be very interesting.

I played a game against Space Marines last week who brought a Storm Raven and a Storm Talon. My Wave Serpents were basically the only thing on the table capable of harming either of them. So I think you're right on the money about Wave Serpents being a serious part of our anti-air strategy. I wish more units besides Dark Reapers could take Missile Launchers with Flakk missiles for a reasonable price... like Vaul Support Batteries or Guardian Heavy Weapons Platforms. In my game tomorrow I'm hoping a Guided group of War Walkers will be enough to kill off his fliers, but I'm pretty worried that his fliers are so mobile, he'll have the War Walkers dead by turn 2. We shall see!

Good point about the Hammerhead not being Fast. I'd forgotten that. It's definitely worth mentioning that the Hammerhead has to remain stationary to use its full weapons compliment. Tau can get around that with Markerlights though.

Prescienced war walkers kill storm talons easily. Marine air is a pretty average build.

Martel732 wrote:
Prescienced war walkers kill storm talons easily. Marine air is a pretty average build.

Sadly I didn't have any War Walkers that game. It was a very bizarre game. My Farseer was occupied on the other side of the board Dooming and Prescience-ing Striking Scorpions and Dire Avengers who were in a never-ending combat, which at one point involved 4 whole squads. The only thing I had to take on the fliers was a Wraithlord and my Wave Serpents. That said, it was an awesome game.

I'm hoping tomorrow War Walkers will save me from the flying Tyrants.

They will. Maybe even start them in reserve. Any AV10-11 flyer and FMC is fair game for Eldar. Against AV12 flyers though, especially the Heldrake is where it gets tough. One of the reasons why Wave Serpents are so popular is due to the Drakes killing any and all of our infantry like they were butter. And we have no good 2+ characters to tank hits.

If there's anything Eldar don't do well, it's AA.

Really all thats needed is wave serpent shield back to how it was in 4th, shield 18-24" range, gains assault vehicle. Sorted. Nothing else in the eldar dex is so OP/UP that it needs significant changes. but the wave serpent really needs changing, its just abit silly, and bansheesneed an assault vehicle because t3 4+ save is laughable for a melee unit that has to footslog

Jetseer with mantle is very good, but not hilariously OP like the wave serpent. Rest of the problems are caused by the general 2++ allies probs and such

 Araenion wrote:

Also, to the poster who said our psychic powers are all great except Death Mission? Really? Which one do you mean? Those horrible Warp Charge 2 Mind War and Eldritch Storm? Executioner is great? When did that happen? Fact is, we have 2 great powers and a great Primaris. The rest are utter garbage. Divination is the school that has the best powers in the game, period. And it's been given out to almost every codex like candy.

You're right Executioner isn't great. So I missed a power in my head when I made that post rather than go look at the codex. Sue me.

Doom is incredible and I don't think I need to go into reasons why.

Eldritch Storm is a LARGE BLAST TEMPLATE (of which there are very, very few in any psychic discipline) at 24" range that at least causes a wound as long as you don't roll 1's, against everything that isn't flying. Ever roll this power against Orks, Daemonette spam, IG hordes or even other Eldar players? Huge nuke you can do every turn to demolish huge amounts of guys.

Death Mission isn't great but it is a hell of a lot of fun, especially if you bring some Eldar as allies making their mandatory HQ the Farseer. FUN. OH MY GOD WHAT A CONCEPT. Fun is not an action supported by the codex astartes, I hear.

Fortune even without being in a warlock council is one of the most broken abilities in the game so I won't touch on it.

I've seen Mind War one-shot a daemon prince, and it was easily achieved. Considering Warlocks and if you want as a backup HQ unit a spiritseer can get Embolden/Horrify, there are ways to set it up as a combo within it's own codex to shatter enemy HQs. For extra funs, I managed to get this power on my allied Farseer to my Dark Angels unit when I ran Ezekiel. All the things were being Mindwormed/Mind-warred to death and it was great fun.

Just because they aren't game breaking doesn't mean they aren't powerful and it isn't a good table. Take a deep breath and play a game for fun one of these days and see if you have any.

Oh btw: IF ONLY THERE WAS A CHEAP ARTEFACT I COULD BUY TO HELP ME OUT WITH ALL THE WC2 SPELLS. It's almost like someone realized there were several of them and gave people a way to make due...

It's too bad Eldar are totally stuck with their own psychic discipline for people who don't like the powers, though. If only Eldar could roll on Divination or Telepathy, then... then my God, can you imagine how OP Farseers would be?!


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Araenion wrote:

If there's anything Eldar don't do well, it's AA.

Compared to whom? Tau obviously win at the AA category but I mean, who else? Eldar have probably the most dangerous air-to-air unit in 6E and it's reasonably priced. They also have a cheap HQ unit that helps you attempt to make sure yours comes in later than the enemies.

Obviously everyone can field Aegis Defense Lines, but we have a unit that takes advantage of it for the purposes of AA better than a lot of other people. Dark Reapers manning an ADL give you the added benefit of making it useless to attempt evasive maneuvers, seeing as they ignore jink. Add a fast shot exarch with Eldar Missile Launcher and Flakk Missiles for the added benefit of another decent gun to shoot at the flyer. You're not bringing Dark Reapers to BE your anti-air (they are there to f*** up bikers and skimmers mostly), it's just that they can do it in a pinch. They tend to like being behind ADLs anyway because at 48" range with all their own weaponry, the cover saves vs. any long range weaponry they might eat comes in handy.

For the record, a lot of people think it's a lot of points to upgrade the exarch to be "anti-air" but in reality you're only paying 10 points. I tend to gear mine with fast shot with an Eldar Missile Launcher anyway because it's deadly to do that regardless of whether or not you think you might want to pay an extra 10 if you figure you're going to face some air.

Chaos Space Marines either have to field really expensive Havoc squads or hope their Heldrakes can Vector Strike enemy flyers to death. Space Marines have pretty good anti-air in the form of their own air units but those are about as frail as Crimson Hunters (+1 AV helps but -1 Hull Point does not), and other than that have to blow probably their most important force org slot on either tanks that are pretty cheap but somewhat ineffective AA anyways or are a really expensive Devastator Squad. Dark Angels have no good AA to speak of and so are a lot like Space Wolves in that they have to turn to Forgeworld to field anything worth taking against air units. Chaos Daemons are pretty bad against air too because they also have to rely on Vector Striking, it's just at lower strength (6) with almost all of their units you ever see fielded. They just don't really need to kill air to protect their units as much as Eldar do, I suppose.

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:

Murrdox wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
"You're insinuating that the Wave Serpent as-is should cost as much as a MONOLITH? Really? "

It certainly needs to cost more or do less. Nothing else is acceptable. They are a ridiculously undercosted unit; worse than the Vendetta due to their near immortality.

I don't really think they're IMMORTAL at all... at least not much more immortal than any other Skimmer. Tau have the same issue, and some of their Skimmers are AV13, which can be even more difficult to kill.

It's worth noting that a Hammerhead costs about the same as a Wave Serpent with a Scatter Laser.

The Hammerhead can put out 4 30" S5 AP5 Ignores Cover, Twin Linked shots, on top of a 72" range S10 AP1 shot or a S6 AP4 large blast. That's pretty comparable to a Wave Serpent, and that's without any upgrades of any kind. Instead of a 72" weapon and a 30" weapon, the Wave Serpent has a 36" weapon and a 60" weapon.

The Hammerhand takes up Heavy Support slots, doesn't have a Shield and can't transport troops.

Think about it: you just said that it's fine that an Eldar transport has the same firepower as a Tau MBT. Do you not see anything wrong with that?

Exactly right - the issue is that the Wave Serpant is now a heavily shielded, well armoured and long range artillery vehicle which also happens to carry troops - completly the opposite it what is supoposed to be.

The Codex described it as : The main troop c arrier of a craftworlds army, protected inside its sleek hull strike forces are trasnported in safety. The energy field projectors generate a rippling bow wave of forceat the front of the craft, though it can be projected outwards as a weapon IN EXTREMIS"

Lets hope GW fix in in their next FAQ update, make it shorter range and/or one shot or you fire it at short range to gain Assault vehicle. Its currently just too good.

Its extremely funny (and sad) that Eldar players are trying to justify this unit as is and even complaining that they are somehow hard done by in the AA stakes - compared to who aprt formt he Tau with who there are also major balance issues. The Eldar have air cover and AA options- much more than some armies - Adepta Sororitas - they don't get either but apparently the Eldar are the hard done by ones.................

SRSFACE:

The first part of your post is full of subjective presumptions about the game and myself as a player, so I won't touch on that.

The part about AA is true to an extent, but the problem is that the most common Flyers(Heldrakes, Vendettas, Night Scythes) are a big problem for Eldar, not just because they are hard to take down, but also because of what they do to our stuff. You can't Intercept it because we have no Intercept, so you just have to grind your teeth and hope their alpha-strike isn't so devastating it cripplies your army. So no, we don't do AA well and Flyers are a thorn in pretty much every pure Eldar list, except Serpent spam.

 Araenion wrote:
SRSFACE:

The first part of your post is full of subjective presumptions about the game and myself as a player, so I won't touch on that.

The part about AA is true to an extent, but the problem is that the most common Flyers(Heldrakes, Vendettas, Night Scythes) are a big problem for Eldar, not just because they are hard to take down, but also because of what they do to our stuff. You can't Intercept it because we have no Intercept, so you just have to grind your teeth and hope their alpha-strike isn't so devastating it cripplies your army. So no, we don't do AA well and Flyers are a thorn in pretty much every pure Eldar list, except Serpent spam.

Again they don't do AA well compared to who exactly?

You haven't noticed that what Almighty Walrus said was said by me, in greater length, just two posts above? I'm not trying to justfy the Serpent as is by denoting Eldar AA capabilities. Quite the opposite, I said that if the Serpent's Shield is gone as is, we'd need something else to compensate. And why the hell wouldn't you want more diversity in Eldar lists? Isn't that what the main argument about Eldar is about?

If you make the Seprent a decent assault unit that also makes Howling Banshees usable then that surely helps diversity.

Saying the Eldar lack AA (which they dont- esp compared to other armies) and somehow "have" to use the Serpent suggests that its yet another reason why the Serpent is overpowered as its able to be not only great artillery but AA as well?!

I'd say for the serpent shields, when they fire, they come back the next round as normal on a 4+.
Remove ignores cover, and we're in business
Add assault vehicle to the falcon, and we're getting somewhere.

The Serpent is the primary Eldar Transport - the Falcon is more speclialised so I would think it makes more sense for the Serpent to be the Assault vehicle?

 Farseer Faenyin wrote:

Jetbikes. Make it so models with Jetbikes can only join and be joined by other models with Jetbikes. No more Baron, one DS fixed to be just rerollable 2+ on Cover...which a lot of lists can ignore(since this is a Codex fix, I'd rather just see a blanket rule on re-rollable saves never being greater than 4+ on the reroll).

So because you simply don't like other people re-rolling things, you're saying that we should make everything with Twin-linked, BS9, BS10, and Master-crafted worse? Deal with it. The damage output of the Seerstar isn't exactly glorious anyway, and once they're in CC they only have the Baron's save to rely on.

Anyway, I love how people aren't simply changing the codex, they're straight up nerfing the hell out of it.

 McNinja wrote:

 Farseer Faenyin wrote:

Jetbikes. Make it so models with Jetbikes can only join and be joined by other models with Jetbikes. No more Baron, one DS fixed to be just rerollable 2+ on Cover...which a lot of lists can ignore(since this is a Codex fix, I'd rather just see a blanket rule on re-rollable saves never being greater than 4+ on the reroll).

So because you simply don't like other people re-rolling things, you're saying that we should make everything with Twin-linked, BS9, BS10, and Master-crafted worse? Deal with it. The damage output of the Seerstar isn't exactly glorious anyway, and once they're in CC they only have the Baron's save to rely on.

Anyway, I love how people aren't simply changing the codex, they're straight up nerfing the hell out of it.

It's almost as if Codex: Eldar is too strong at the moment! Who would've thought it?!

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:

 McNinja wrote:

 Farseer Faenyin wrote:

Jetbikes. Make it so models with Jetbikes can only join and be joined by other models with Jetbikes. No more Baron, one DS fixed to be just rerollable 2+ on Cover...which a lot of lists can ignore(since this is a Codex fix, I'd rather just see a blanket rule on re-rollable saves never being greater than 4+ on the reroll).

So because you simply don't like other people re-rolling things, you're saying that we should make everything with Twin-linked, BS9, BS10, and Master-crafted worse? Deal with it. The damage output of the Seerstar isn't exactly glorious anyway, and once they're in CC they only have the Baron's save to rely on.

Anyway, I love how people aren't simply changing the codex, they're straight up nerfing the hell out of it.

It's almost as if Codex: Eldar is too strong at the moment! Who would've thought it?!

I'm not saying it isn't. I'm saying that the rules within the codex are mostly sound, only a few things need to be changed, mainly the points of a few things (mainly wave serpents). For instance, why does the Serpent Shield have ignores cover? Just because?

 McNinja wrote:

 Farseer Faenyin wrote:

Jetbikes. Make it so models with Jetbikes can only join and be joined by other models with Jetbikes. No more Baron, one DS fixed to be just rerollable 2+ on Cover...which a lot of lists can ignore(since this is a Codex fix, I'd rather just see a blanket rule on re-rollable saves never being greater than 4+ on the reroll).

So because you simply don't like other people re-rolling things, you're saying that we should make everything with Twin-linked, BS9, BS10, and Master-crafted worse? Deal with it. The damage output of the Seerstar isn't exactly glorious anyway, and once they're in CC they only have the Baron's save to rely on.

Anyway, I love how people aren't simply changing the codex, they're straight up nerfing the hell out of it.

I love how some people are desperate to hang onto thier unfair advantages and see any kind of suggestion to try and re-balance as a nerf.

So can you say, hand on heart that you think Wave Seprants and re-rollable 2++ saves are fun and balanced?

Mr Morden wrote:

So can you say, hand on heart that you think Wave Seprants and re-rollable 2++ saves are fun and balanced?

So is that Serpent with a 2++ re-rollable save from a Farseer with some space magic? Cause if so that is hardly the Wave Serpents fault.

 Zakiriel wrote:

Mr Morden wrote:

So can you say, hand on heart that you think Wave Seprants and re-rollable 2++ saves are fun and balanced?

So is that Serpent with a 2++ re-rollable save from a Farseer with some space magic? Cause if so that is hardly the Wave Serpents fault.

I didn't bring up re-rollable saves - read the posts. They are broken, Wave Serpents are broken, end of.

The quesiton is valid is it not?

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:


Think about it: you just said that it's fine that an Eldar transport has the same firepower as a Tau MBT. Do you not see anything wrong with that?

With an accusation like that, it sounds like you would have gotten just as mad if he would have said: "it's fine that a current United States IFV has the same firepower as a World War I tank."

Eldar tech is so far advanced beyond the Tau to an extent that even my analogy fails to display the gross discrepancies between the two.

 Vladsimpaler wrote:

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:


Think about it: you just said that it's fine that an Eldar transport has the same firepower as a Tau MBT. Do you not see anything wrong with that?

With an accusation like that, it sounds like you would have gotten just as mad if he would have said: "it's fine that a current United States IFV has the same firepower as a World War I tank."

Eldar tech is so far advanced beyond the Tau to an extent that even my analogy fails to display the gross discrepancies between the two.

Do you think the current Wave Serpent is fair and balanced to enable good games - or as I do, not only completely at odds with the actual fluff (see previous posts) but way too powerful (and in the wrong areas) for its popints and easily availbility. Or something else?

 Vladsimpaler wrote:

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:


Think about it: you just said that it's fine that an Eldar transport has the same firepower as a Tau MBT. Do you not see anything wrong with that?

With an accusation like that, it sounds like you would have gotten just as mad if he would have said: "it's fine that a current United States IFV has the same firepower as a World War I tank."

Eldar tech is so far advanced beyond the Tau to an extent that even my analogy fails to display the gross discrepancies between the two.

You realize that much of the Tau weapon tech is more powerful than the Eldar's? Even with much of the Eldar tech being better than tau tech, the main battletank of the tau should still have more firepower than the DC of the Eldar. Tau tech is very advanced which is their main strength. They generally have more powerful, longer ranged guns than anyone else. Just because they are not 100,000YO civilization doesn't mean that they have weak technology.

 Co'tor Shas wrote:

 Vladsimpaler wrote:

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:


Think about it: you just said that it's fine that an Eldar transport has the same firepower as a Tau MBT. Do you not see anything wrong with that?

With an accusation like that, it sounds like you would have gotten just as mad if he would have said: "it's fine that a current United States IFV has the same firepower as a World War I tank."

Eldar tech is so far advanced beyond the Tau to an extent that even my analogy fails to display the gross discrepancies between the two.

You realize that much of the Tau weapon tech is more powerful than the Eldar's? Even with much of the Eldar tech being better than tau tech, the main battletank of the tau should still have more firepower than the DC of the Eldar. Tau tech is very advanced which is their main strength. They generally have more powerful, longer ranged guns than anyone else. Just because they are not 100,000YO civilization doesn't mean that they have weak technology.

No. Just no. Tau don't have more advanced tech than Eldar.

Is there a Tech plateau though ?

So certain forms of technology can only be improved to a certain point beyond which you are then just gilding the lily?

Look. I don't CARE how good something is, as LONG AS YOU PAY THE POINTS FOR IT. Eldar don't. Tau don't. Daemons don't. Other armies pay premium prices for crap. That's why every Eldar suggestion is a nerf. I would prefer the opposite. Leave Eldar, so they can't complain, and just make everyone else just as good.

Martel732 wrote:
Look. I don't CARE how good something is, as LONG AS YOU PAY THE POINTS FOR IT. Eldar don't. Tau don't. Daemons don't. Other armies pay premium prices for crap. That's why every Eldar suggestion is a nerf. I would prefer the opposite. Leave Eldar, so they can't complain, and just make everyone else just as good.

+1.

Some toning down is required though, Seer Council in particular. Otherwise power creep would be even greater than it already is.