I have been out of the loop for a while and I have seen people keep saying Eldar are overpowered.

I have not played an eldar game for a while since the codex was released last summer.

Can I have an explanation of why?

Chiefly, lots of advantages with few drawbacks.

Wraithserpents put out high volumes of high S fire, normally twin linked, and a low cost (and as DTs don't take FOC slots)

Shuriken cats now get rending against infantry

Many infantry units can run and shoot.

Wraithknights are not über broken, but a highly mobile T8 heavy weapons platform which can be taken in multiples fairly easy @1500 pts

In a nutshell.

The Eldar codex is what every codex should be.

1) Pseudo rending on all basic troopers. Kill your teqs goodbye.

2) Wave Serpent is just insane. It's a fast skimmer that's AV 12/12/12/10 for starters. It doesn't take an FOC slot since it is dedicated transport. It has two heavy weapons, one of which is usually the scatter laser (which is broken in and of itself) which twin links all other weapons on the vehicle. Including the next part, the "shield". The "shield" in defensive mode makes all pens glances on a 2+, but WAIT! There's more! The "shield" can be fired as a "gun" out to 60", D6+1 shots, S7 AP - ignore cover. And it is usually TL from the scatter laser.

3) Jetseer council. The most broken of the broken. Usually accompanied by special guest star Baron for hit and run love. These babies pack insane movement with tons of psychic powers to be buffed out the wahzoo. Buffs you can't stop by the way, unless you are Space Cheese (Wolves). The murder anything they touch in CC because they themselves can't be killed and you can't get away because their movement is insane.

4) Wraithknight? It's actually fairly priced (sorta) for what it does, which is tame compared to the rest of the list. It's huge, has many wounds, is T8, has ranged ST 10 AP 1 instant death guns, but only a 3+ save. Manageable compared to the above factors.

5) D-scythes. S4 AP 2 flamers? On T6 models? Yup. All meqs and teqs kiss your ass goodbye.

6) War walkers. These things make every imperial heavy weapon platform look straight up slowed. This squad packs in six heavy weapons, 5++ invuln saves, and battle focus for now-I-see-you-to-shoot and now-you-don't-see-me-on-your-turn shenanigans. These things are point and shoot death.

7) Scatter lasers. The fact that these exist is insane. The are 36" assault cannons without any AP or rending, but are much cheaper and on better platforms. They are known for wound spamming pretty much anything with wounds to death from 36" away. Have a nice life with your crappy Imperial weapons because the Eldar have these babies.

Did I miss something? I'm sure I did in the awesomeness that is codex Eldar.

No, I'm not bitter at all.

they gave them a better ballistic skill, then gave them lots of twin linking, and then gave even more divination as a cherry on top, just to be sure...

Basically its people being cranky that Eldar went from 3rd rate whipping posts who had to take FW units to be halfway ok to now with their new dex they became one of the top 3 armies.

Eldar could win in 5th. They just had very few viable units. But the scatter laser was still broken as hell. If your Eldar players were whipping boys in 5th, they sucked as Eldar players. I saw space marine list after space marine list get mopped up by Seer councils and War walkers in 5th.

They are really good. I play them. The Wave Serpent thing is tough. However really they shine as anti air units and anti AV 12. They aren't all that great against any MEQ or better unit. The Serpent has no AP value to speak of in its best load out which is Scatter Laser/Shield/SC.
Don't let people fool you. The army/codex isn't good because of Wave Serpents. Its good because of the synergy between Troops/Fast Attack/Heavy and HQ. They each have great options. You almost can't go wrong making a list.
OP sure but no different then any army during their time on top. See also Tau, Daemons in 6th or Necrons and GK in 5th.
Its just their turn to be good.With that being said. If someone isn't playing cheese. Which honestly there only two true cheese things in the Codex. I say that knowing I'll get flamed for WS spam and WK spam but spam is spam its no different then it ever has been. Its beatable just hard to do so.
1. Mantle of the laughing god with a jet bike.
2. Jetseer which with psychic buffs you can get a rerollable 2+ save just like the Mantle above.
These two things are true cheese because there isnt a real way to deal with them besides ignore cover weapons and they are still hard to kill.

There shouldn't be "top" armies, but that's another can of worms.

For the OP, the Eldar are totally OP.

This again?

 Zakiriel wrote:
Basically its people being cranky that Eldar went from 3rd rate whipping posts who had to take FW units to be halfway ok to now with their new dex they became one of the top 3 armies.

Halfway ok?

 Zakiriel wrote:
Basically its people being cranky that Eldar went from 3rd rate whipping posts who had to take FW units to be halfway ok to now with their new dex they became one of the top 3 armies.

I'd say this is a rather short term memory problem. Eldar were "sub-optimal" for all of a couple years, the last half of fifth mainly. They are astounding now. They were very usable in the first half of fifth. They were the top dog of the last half of 4th and one of the top in the first half. They were likewise one of the top armies of 3rd edition. In 2nd edition they were broken beyond anything imaginable today.

Eldar have, aside from the short sprint in 5th, always been one of, it not the, most powerful armies in the game.

Now, if we were talking about IG or DE in 5th, armies that had gone never been particularly good until then, you might have a point. But Eldar? They've been probably the most loved army in terms of power level throughout 40k's history (in terms of consistency of power level of each book they've had).

 MRPYM wrote:
I have been out of the loop for a while and I have seen people keep saying Eldar are overpowered.

I have not played an eldar game for a while since the codex was released last summer.

Can I have an explanation of why?

Excellent and plentiful psychic support that augments already very capable firepower, Wave Serpents that can put out a tremendous amount of very accurate firepower and remain very difficult to kill even in the open, ability to ally in very powerful allies that they can further synergize with, etc.

In their defense the most advanced oldest race in the galaxy should be OP.

 lobbywatson wrote:
In their defense the most advanced oldest race in the galaxy should be OP.

They're also a dying race where each casualty is a critical loss...

Nobody *should* be OP, that's why we have points to assign value to units. Otherwise, why would you play anything but the OP race?

 lobbywatson wrote:
In their defense the most advanced oldest race in the galaxy should be OP.

I know someone will say "Draigo's Law!" but... Matt Ward gave the same exact excuse about why Chaos Daemons were broken in fantasy. He got so much gak for it and for good reason. It's a dumb excuse since the story should serve the game, not the other way around.

And yes, Eldar are overpowered especially if you run Marines. It seems that Mr. Kelly either really, really, really hates Space Marines or he really, really, really, really, really, really loves Eldar. Probably both.

Martel732 wrote:


2) Wave Serpent is just insane. It's a fast skimmer that's AV 12/12/12/10 for starters. It doesn't take an FOC slot since it is dedicated transport. It has two heavy weapons, one of which is usually the scatter laser (which is broken in and of itself) which twin links all other weapons on the vehicle. Including the next part, the "shield". The "shield" in defensive mode makes all pens glances on a 2+, but WAIT! There's more! The "shield" can be fired as a "gun" out to 60", D6+1 shots, S7 AP - ignore cover. And it is usually TL from the scatter laser.

You forgot holofields and ghostwalk matrices for improved cover saves and ignoring dangerous terrain tests. It only has one heavy weapon stock. The extra cannon has to be paid for. The stock shuricats are already twinlinked, but only have 12" range. As commonly configured with shuricannon, holofields, and ghostwalk it runs 155 points.

3) Jetseer council. The most broken of the broken. Usually accompanied by special guest star Baron for hit and run love. These babies pack insane movement with tons of psychic powers to be buffed out the wahzoo. Buffs you can't stop by the way, unless you are Space Cheese (Wolves). The murder anything they touch in CC because they themselves can't be killed and you can't get away because their movement is insane.

Good at killing vehicles with singing spears (S9), but otherwise don't do alot of damage because of few attacks and Ap -. Depends on buffs from LD8, 1-wound psykers with random powers. Also dependent on Fortune. Without Fortune this unit folds. Only really a problem because of allied DE Baron for 2++ shadowfield to tank wounds. Biggest threat is being able to starburst at game end to contest multiple objectives with 48" moves.

4) Wraithknight? It's actually fairly priced (sorta) for what it does, which is tame compared to the rest of the list. It's huge, has many wounds, is T8, has ranged ST 10 AP 1 instant death guns, but only a 3+ save. Manageable compared to the above factors.

S10 gun only causes instant death on a wound roll of 6. Of course S10 tends to ID a lot of things anyway...

5) D-scythes. S4 AP 2 flamers? On T6 models? Yup. All meqs and teqs kiss your ass goodbye.

Costs 210 for a unit of 5. Add 90 points to make them scoring. Next to useless without a transport to get them into template range.

6) War walkers. These things make every imperial heavy weapon platform look straight up slowed. This squad packs in six heavy weapons, 5++ invuln saves, and battle focus for now-I-see-you-to-shoot and now-you-don't-see-me-on-your-turn shenanigans. These things are point and shoot death.

AV10, open-topped, 2 hull points. Die to bolters, fleshborers, pulse rifles, kroot rifles, heavy bolters, assault cannons, autocannons, lascannons, melta guns, krak grenades, cluster spines, flesh hooks, heavy flamers, plasma guns, devourers, sluggas, big shootas, deff guns, snazzguns, rokkits, psycannons, missile launchers, plasma cannons, battle cannons, shredders, blasters, lances, all tesla, all gauss etc etc. Only really safe from grot blastas and lasguns.

7) Scatter lasers. The fact that these exist is insane. The are 36" assault cannons without any AP or rending, but are much cheaper and on better platforms. They are known for wound spamming pretty much anything with wounds to death from 36" away. Have a nice life with your crappy Imperial weapons because the Eldar have these babies.

S6 Ap6. 20 points. TL Assault cannons on a razorback also cost 20 points.

TheCustomLime
And yes, Eldar are overpowered especially if you run Marines. It seems that Mr. Kelly either really, really, really hates Space Marines or he really, really, really, really, really, really loves Eldar. Probably both.

There is a lot of truth in this I think!

 Arschbombe wrote:

Martel732 wrote:


2) Wave Serpent is just insane. It's a fast skimmer that's AV 12/12/12/10 for starters. It doesn't take an FOC slot since it is dedicated transport. It has two heavy weapons, one of which is usually the scatter laser (which is broken in and of itself) which twin links all other weapons on the vehicle. Including the next part, the "shield". The "shield" in defensive mode makes all pens glances on a 2+, but WAIT! There's more! The "shield" can be fired as a "gun" out to 60", D6+1 shots, S7 AP - ignore cover. And it is usually TL from the scatter laser.

You forgot holofields and ghostwalk matrices for improved cover saves and ignoring dangerous terrain tests. It only has one heavy weapon stock. The extra cannon has to be paid for. The stock shuricats are already twinlinked, but only have 12" range. As commonly configured with shuricannon, holofields, and ghostwalk it runs 155 points.

3) Jetseer council. The most broken of the broken. Usually accompanied by special guest star Baron for hit and run love. These babies pack insane movement with tons of psychic powers to be buffed out the wahzoo. Buffs you can't stop by the way, unless you are Space Cheese (Wolves). The murder anything they touch in CC because they themselves can't be killed and you can't get away because their movement is insane.

Good at killing vehicles with singing spears (S9), but otherwise don't do alot of damage because of few attacks and Ap -. Depends on buffs from LD8, 1-wound psykers with random powers. Also dependent on Fortune. Without Fortune this unit folds. Only really a problem because of allied DE Baron for 2++ shadowfield to tank wounds. Biggest threat is being able to starburst at game end to contest multiple objectives with 48" moves.

4) Wraithknight? It's actually fairly priced (sorta) for what it does, which is tame compared to the rest of the list. It's huge, has many wounds, is T8, has ranged ST 10 AP 1 instant death guns, but only a 3+ save. Manageable compared to the above factors.

S10 gun only causes instant death on a wound roll of 6. Of course S10 tends to ID a lot of things anyway...

5) D-scythes. S4 AP 2 flamers? On T6 models? Yup. All meqs and teqs kiss your ass goodbye.

Costs 210 for a unit of 5. Add 90 points to make them scoring. Next to useless without a transport to get them into template range.

6) War walkers. These things make every imperial heavy weapon platform look straight up slowed. This squad packs in six heavy weapons, 5++ invuln saves, and battle focus for now-I-see-you-to-shoot and now-you-don't-see-me-on-your-turn shenanigans. These things are point and shoot death.

AV10, open-topped, 2 hull points. Die to bolters, fleshborers, pulse rifles, kroot rifles, heavy bolters, assault cannons, autocannons, lascannons, melta guns, krak grenades, cluster spines, flesh hooks, heavy flamers, plasma guns, devourers, sluggas, big shootas, deff guns, snazzguns, rokkits, psycannons, missile launchers, plasma cannons, battle cannons, shredders, blasters, lances, all tesla, all gauss etc etc. Only really safe from grot blastas and lasguns.

7) Scatter lasers. The fact that these exist is insane. The are 36" assault cannons without any AP or rending, but are much cheaper and on better platforms. They are known for wound spamming pretty much anything with wounds to death from 36" away. Have a nice life with your crappy Imperial weapons because the Eldar have these babies.

S6 Ap6. 20 points. TL Assault cannons on a razorback also cost 20 points.

I didn't know they had so many drawbacks... hopefully they get some dataslates or something to buff them soon...

 lobbywatson wrote:
In their defense the most advanced oldest race in the galaxy should be OP.

Necrons?

 lobbywatson wrote:
In their defense the most advanced oldest race in the galaxy should be OP.

Eldar may lay claim to be the second most advanced if you count the DE with them (otherwise DE are second and Eldar are third), but fluffwise they aren't anywhere near as technologically advanced as the Necrons.

And tyranids are much older then all of them. If they ate galaxies before the w40k one , then they either went and won or at least survived a few end game situations . Age wise they should be playing wX00k

Makumba wrote:
And tyranids are much older then all of them. If they ate galaxies before the w40k one , then they either went and won or at least survived a few end game situations . Age wise they should be playing wX00k

What makes you think Tyranids are older? Necrons were a galaxy spanning empire over 60 million years ago.

Besides, Tyranids don't have technology in the conventional sense, so the comparison is rather pointless to begin with...

Tyranids took part in "wars" like we have in w40k right now and won . They already ate galaxies , which had their own empires . They , at least in fluff, evolved above outside source technology.
In the w40k univers the only race that can do warp jump unaided are the enslavers and they can do it only , because warp is the ecosystem they were born in .

Makumba wrote:
Tyranids took part in "wars" like we have in w40k right now and won . They already ate galaxies , which had their own empires . They , at least in fluff, evolved above outside source technology.
In the w40k univers the only race that can do warp jump unaided are the enslavers and they can do it only , because warp is the ecosystem they were born in .

If you really want to go down this path, I could just start categorically detailing how Tyranid biotech is inferior to Necron technology in practically each and every field they cared to research.

Sure go on . The necron pre new dex had a draw against another uber race . Their new fluff lets them use the power of gravity to blow up their own gods . Sure that is impressive , but even when they won , they weren't able to finish everyone off. Nids finished everyone in their own galaxy and then did it a few times again in other galaxies . Necrons to top that would have to do the same and then go to warp and kick all the warp entities living there in the nads.
If it wasn't for old ones web ways necrons wouldn't be even able to go around at all .

 Vaktathi wrote:
Nobody *should* be OP, that's why we have points to assign value to units. Otherwise, why would you play anything but the OP race?

This is only important if you are considering a competitive environment like a tournament. Otherwise, you should be forging a narrative.

Cheers!

 Zakiriel wrote:
Basically its people being cranky that Eldar went from 3rd rate whipping posts who had to take FW units to be halfway ok to now with their new dex they became one of the top 3 armies.

Basically its between people wanting a fun game and seeing issues with them that need fixing (wave serpents, Seer Councils as primary) and a few peopledefending them who want the I win codex.................simple really.

Which are you?

Grim Dark wrote:

 Vaktathi wrote:
Nobody *should* be OP, that's why we have points to assign value to units. Otherwise, why would you play anything but the OP race?

This is only important if you are considering a competitive environment like a tournament. Otherwise, you should be forging a narrative.

Cheers!

I have never once played a "forge the narrative" game in 20 years of 40K. I didn't know this GW drivel ever happened until I got on here.

Where's the narrative that the Eldar are supposed to lose once in a while?

 Arschbombe wrote:

5) D-scythes. S4 AP 2 flamers? On T6 models? Yup. All meqs and teqs kiss your ass goodbye.

Costs 210 for a unit of 5. Add 90 points to make them scoring. Next to useless without a transport to get them into template range.

Spiritseer is only 70 points.

But yeah, the transport point is a good one. With a fast, resilent vehicle with firepower, they would be really good.

A shame that Eldar don't have a tank like that...

Eldar are not OP.

They are a very cool army tbh, when it comes down to it.

"Wave Serpent spam" is OP.

The difference? the army as a whole has a lot of cool stuff in it and has potential for a nice flexibility and cool fielding army, however people love to abuse poorly written rules (awaiting my box of soap for my opinion) and therefore we get stuff like Wave Serpent spam and Jetseer councils and the Famous Tau-Dar and the lists are OP, not the army.

Once people fight these OP lists they then scream that the whole army is OP because they got the unfortunate end of the stick, and have not had enough games to fight a variety of Eldar lists, but then again how can they when everyone will use the same old bland lists, and so the never ending circle keeps on spinning..

Well, Serpents are overpowered. The rest is not.

 wuestenfux wrote:
Well, Serpents are overpowered. The rest is not.

As I said the army is not overpowered but the lists people create are, with your daily dose of, you guess it:

I knew I'd get lit up for that "they deserve to be OP" comment. Hehehe.
Spam is just spam though. Its always been there. Its always a issue. It can be beat. Not always but it can be. Spam in my eyes isn't a huge deal. Its what people play. They play their best units. Makes sense to me.
Broken stuff on the other hand offends me. Me Eldar codex has one really broken thing with the Mantarch/Lolseer one can field. I have never and will never play that. Its weak and anyone playing it sucks.
Now the jet seer star is also broken evidently. I have never seen it in person though nor net anyone who fields it. (same can't be said for the man arch crap I see that non stop). From what I gather it works similar to the screamer star with psychic buffs and a loophole. Anyone playing that crap needs punch led in the D. Alot and often.
Anyways spam is spam. Heldrakes,riptides, wraithknights, cron flyers, vendettas, chimera (yeah I know a guy), drop pod, wave serpent, its goes on and on. Spam is spam. I don't sweat spam. I expect it actually.

Makumba wrote:
Sure go on . The necron pre new dex had a draw against another uber race . Their new fluff lets them use the power of gravity to blow up their own gods . Sure that is impressive , but even when they won , they weren't able to finish everyone off. Nids finished everyone in their own galaxy and then did it a few times again in other galaxies . Necrons to top that would have to do the same and then go to warp and kick all the warp entities living there in the nads.
If it wasn't for old ones web ways necrons wouldn't be even able to go around at all .

First of all, you're making the erroneous assumption that all galaxies are equal. Who cares how many nameless galaxies the Nids managed to consume in the past? So far as we know none of them was anywhere near as nasty as the WH40K milky way.

Secondly, gravity manipulation is goddamn pedestrian as far as Necron tech goes, what they used against the C'tan broke causality itself as a side effect.

Your reference to the Warp is downright nonsensical, given that the Nids have never to my knowledge actually entered the warp themselves (their FTL is not warp based). Even if we were to assume that the warp entities present in other galaxies are anywhere near as nasty as those who call the milky way home (which we really shouldn't, seeing as how the Warp's nastiness is largely a side effect of the War in Heaven) and that every galaxy they ate had some kind of Eye of Terror equivalent (which is a rather silly assumption) there's still no reason to assume that the Tyranids had at any point actually needed to face the full gathered might of said entities.

Moreover, Dolmen Gates are used for strategic level FTL, the Necrons are fully capable of utilizing more conventional realspace FTL drives for when called for, as they did on multiple occasions during the Fall of Orpheus as detailed in IA12.

Now for some actual meaningful direct comparisons between Necron and Tyranid "technologies":

Small arms:
- Tyranid: Small arms largely consist of what are basically biological slug thrower weaponry. Generally unimpressive, only larger organisms possess ranged weaponry worthy of note.
- Necron: Small arms range from anti-matter pistols, through smaller scale Gauss weaponry (the weakest of which, going by fluff, can penetrate tank armor and vaporize Terminators with single hits) and directed electrical discharge weapons capable of reducing humans to charred coals, to wrist mounted plasma flamethrowers. Special mention to the Tachyon Arrow, a one shot personal weapon of unlimited range that can penetrate a mountain.
Advantage: Necrons.

Heavy Weaponry:
- Tyranids: Large variety of bioweaponry, includes powerful projectiles loaded with molecular acid, various sentient munitions of respectable power and limited course correction capabilities, moderately powerful plasma weaponry.
- Necrons: Heavier Gauss weaponry variants capable of overpenetrating a Land Raider without noticeable deflection or attenuation of the beam (more powerful ground based Gauss weapon platforms can even shoot down Imperial cruisers in orbit), larger scale anti-matter weaponry, field artillery pieces with power cores that can destroy entire planets by going critical, molecular disruption weaponry capable of effortlessly cutting through slabs of future-steel 6m thick with a swift sweep, the list goes on.
Advantage: Necrons.

Melee Weaponry:
- Tyranids: A variety of spikes, spines needles, mandibles, claws and whips of various degrees of sharpness and utility, some of which possess capabilities on par with IoM power weapons.
- Necrons: Power weapon equivalents possess disruption fields that are more powerful than those employed by Imperial power weapons by orders of magnitude according to the AdMech's own estimates. Other melee weapons include staffs that temporally disrupt opponents they strike, reducing their speed to a crawl, bladed weapons that phase out of the material plane and partially rematerialize when inside the target, allowing them to sever major arteries without first bothering to cut through the armor, etc...
Advantage: Necrons.

Material Science:
- Tyranids: Reinforced carapace can, at the high end, match Imperial Adamantium in terms of durability (IIRC by basically incorporating adamantium into the composition of the carapace itself).
- Necrons: Heavier armor made up of non-euclidean function materials beyond the understanding of the Imperium or the Adeptus Mechanicus that shows clear superiority to adamantium. Living metal bodies and vehicles consistently match or exceed the durability of IoM equivalents of similar size.
Advantage: Necrons.

Starship propulsion:
Tyranids: Slow as f**k compared to most factions' sublight drives, can take anywhere from weeks to years to reach inhabited planets after dropping from FTL at the system's edge.
Necrons: Inertialess drive enables Necron vessels to accelerate from full stop to near the speed of light in a fraction of a second or come from such speeds to full stop in a similar timeframe, as well as pull off maneuvers that Imperial fleet personal consider flat out impossible (allowing capital ships to dodge Imperial torpedoes with "contemptuous ease").
Advantage: Necrons.

Starship weaponry:
- Tyranids: Pound for pound generally inferior to Imperial equivalents, can only achieve victory in space via overwhelming numeric superiority.
- Necrons: Massively superior to Imperial equivalents, a Necron fleet 1/4 the numeric size of an Imperial one and composed of lighter ship classes can expect to achieve a crushing victory in a direct confrontation in a matter of minutes. Even lighter ship classes possess sufficient offensive capabilities to overwhelm the defenses of even some of the largest Imperial capital ships (three Raider class Necron vessels gutted an Imperial Grand Cruiser in a single pass).
Advantage: Necrons.

I could go on and on and on about tactical teleportation, temporal manipulation, dimensional phasing, stable wormholes used as troop transports, or committing acts such as toppling moons from their orbit or extinguishing stars as planetary siege tactics, but the general trend seems rather clear...

Just drop the issue.

Eldar are not OP.
Only Wave Serpent spam is.

Wraithknights are OP. At the cost of a landraider they are vastly superior in every way, movement, shooting, assault. They fill a weak spot in the Eldar codex, causing them to have almost none that I can recall. Waveserpents have already been discussed. The Eldar and Tau codi are unbalanced in comparison to other codex at this point in time. I would almost put daemons up there with them but they are assault, which everyone agrees is not in favour this addition and they have access to 2++ reroll able, which is now being banned/nerfed in major competitive tournaments.

 ScabiusBile wrote:
Wraithknights are OP. At the cost of a landraider they are vastly superior in every way, movement, shooting, assault. They fill a weak spot in the Eldar codex, causing them to have almost none that I can recall. Waveserpents have already been discussed. The Eldar and Tau codi are unbalanced in comparison to other codex at this point in time. I would almost put daemons up there with them but they are assault, which everyone agrees is not in favour this addition and they have access to 2++ reroll able, which is now being banned/nerfed in major competitive tournaments.

QFT.

The Wraithknight is stupendously powerful for its point cost- T8 6W Sv3+ makes it possibly THE most durable non-superheavy model in the game sans (possibly) those with re-rollable 2++ save shenanigans, S10 makes it overpowering against other MCs in CC, and slapping two S10 AP1 guns that remove from game on a roll of 6 on top of it makes it one of the most powerful in terms of firepower as well.

The S10 thing really boggles the mind though- Even some GMCs don't get that high a strength score in their statline...

Compared it to the Riptide with its 2+ Armour and turbo Invulnerable Save of 3+ not convinced that the WK is better or indeed OP. Poison is much more effective against armour 3+.

 Mr Morden wrote:
Compared it to the Riptide with its 2+ Armour and turbo Invulnerable Save of 3+ not convinced that the WK is better or indeed OP. Poison is much more effective against armour 3+.

How many poisoned AP3 weapons do you know? I sure don't (though admittedly I'm not very familiar with the DE codex).

Also, if the only hard counter to that thing is in the DE codex then it's not much of an answer...

 Mr Morden wrote:
Compared it to the Riptide with its 2+ Armour and turbo Invulnerable Save of 3+ not convinced that the WK is better or indeed OP. Poison is much more effective against armour 3+.

I disagree, the riptide is only t6 that over heats and takes a wound more often than you would think. It actually has a decreased stat line across the board and mono v mono the wraithknight would win hands down every time. But this thread isn't for comparing the 2, sorry back on topic!

Grim Dark wrote:
The Eldar codex is what every codex should be.

No it's not. It's got horrible internal balance. I'd venture so far to say that the Eldar Codex has both the game's most overpowered and the games least useful units.

Okay. Legal lists from Eldar are OP. How this is functionally different from "Eldar are OP" I don't understand. Pseudo rending and scatterlasers are OP on their own.

 Mahtamori wrote:

Grim Dark wrote:
The Eldar codex is what every codex should be.

No it's not. It's got horrible internal balance. I'd venture so far to say that the Eldar Codex has both the game's most overpowered and the games least useful units.

Really...? REALLY?! What in this codex can be considered "least useful unit?" I have played with almost every unit in the codex and while some of them are mediocre at worse I would hardly claim them to be worse than things like Rough Riders and Pyrovores.

Arbiter_Shade wrote:

 Mahtamori wrote:

Grim Dark wrote:
The Eldar codex is what every codex should be.

No it's not. It's got horrible internal balance. I'd venture so far to say that the Eldar Codex has both the game's most overpowered and the games least useful units.

Really...? REALLY?! What in this codex can be considered "least useful unit?" I have played with almost every unit in the codex and while some of them are mediocre at worse I would hardly claim them to be worse than things like Rough Riders and Pyrovores.

Howling Banshees are pretty bad sadly?

re Riptides - loosing the odd wound to overcharge (even if they don;t save it on FNP) is nothing when you get the same save as Storm Shields. They are undercosted for what they do and their sheer durability..

re Serpents - the problem is they are way way too good for thier cost and are used as well defended (AV 12, jink, holof fields etc etc) artillery/AA/Anti-tank units - not the transports they are supposed to be. They outshine all other transport choices and lastly to make matters worse they are dedicated transports rather than HC choices which is effectively what they have become.

I agree that Banshees need a little help, but to pretend that they are the least useful units in the game?

Pyrovores are a contender. Possessed are contenders, as are Ripper Swarms and Mandrakes. Plenty of units would *kill* to be a fast, AP-3 wielding dude at their cost.
That isn't to say that they are good, just that they are so far beyond the true players that it comes off as a bit delusional to think that Eldar have been subjected to an unfair cruelty in receiving a dud unit.

It's really just the Serpent Sheild's shooting that's gamebreaking. The jetseer council is also OP, but at about the same OP level as many other problems. WKnights are a little on the strong side too. While people complain about everything else too, we generally pay for all our toys.

About half the threads in Proposed Rules mention merging the Shield (my favorite is to treat the range as a typo - 6" on the sheild's shooting instead of 60" seems like it would fix everything)...

Arbiter_Shade wrote:

 Mahtamori wrote:

Grim Dark wrote:
The Eldar codex is what every codex should be.

No it's not. It's got horrible internal balance. I'd venture so far to say that the Eldar Codex has both the game's most overpowered and the games least useful units.

Really...? REALLY?! What in this codex can be considered "least useful unit?" I have played with almost every unit in the codex and while some of them are mediocre at worse I would hardly claim them to be worse than things like Rough Riders and Pyrovores.

Guardian Storm.

 Mahtamori wrote:

Arbiter_Shade wrote:

 Mahtamori wrote:

Grim Dark wrote:
The Eldar codex is what every codex should be.

No it's not. It's got horrible internal balance. I'd venture so far to say that the Eldar Codex has both the game's most overpowered and the games least useful units.

Really...? REALLY?! What in this codex can be considered "least useful unit?" I have played with almost every unit in the codex and while some of them are mediocre at worse I would hardly claim them to be worse than things like Rough Riders and Pyrovores.

Guardian Storm.

Daemonhosts scoff at your overpowered Storm Guardians.

My problem is their spoiled for choices. Need a dedicated assault unit? Choose from Harlequins, Banshees, Scorpions or storm gaurdians. Monstrous creature? There's 3! Wildly OP tanks? Well, there's only one. But you can take a dozen of them! Bwahahahaha!

Space Marine codex?!?! No-monstrous creature-for-you! You, you take uh duh Centurion. They real ugly. You like. Is good.

ps, we only get 2 mc not 3. And the rending thing is sacrificing defense for offense for most of our units. Scatterlaser is only effective on a few different platforms. Rending is strong is you don't consider the range is 12-18" max.

 Slayer222 wrote:
ps, we only get 2 mc not 3. And the rending thing is sacrificing defense for offense for most of our units. Scatterlaser is only effective on a few different platforms. Rending is strong is you don't consider the range is 12-18" max.

I'm not buying this. The Eldar have cut too many lists to pieces. Your defenses are certainly fine against most marine lists, because marines have crap damage output.

 Slayer222 wrote:
ps, we only get 2 mc not 3. And the rending thing is sacrificing defense for offense for most of our units. Scatterlaser is only effective on a few different platforms. Rending is strong is you don't consider the range is 12-18" max.

And of couse one of the vechilces that carries the L/R version of these is the Cheese Serpent..................

Grim Dark wrote:
The Eldar codex is what every codex should be.

^^ This, a thousand times this.

Wraith Lord, Wraith Knight &...(drum roll)...Kaela Mensha Mo'Frack'n Khaine!

PS. Shouldn't the wraithLORD be better than the wraithKNIGHT?

The scatter laser is good on every platform because 36" 4 shot S6 is just awesome. Come play Imperials and experience our crap heavy weapons for a while.

Imnewherewheresthebathroom wrote:

Grim Dark wrote:
The Eldar codex is what every codex should be.

^^ This, a thousand times this.

One its not though is it - most other Codexes can't match it.

Two - why is hvaing some OP units that are a auto select better than having a choice of a variety good units....unless you just want to win at all costs

I love balanced codex's but the eldar one is atleast half decent. I didn't want another helldrake but it happened and as long as i see Helldrake spam i will see serpent spam.
My lists are 3 jet bikes, 2 da with 2 serpents, 2 rangers, Fire dragons with serpent, 2 fire prism, war walkersx3, 2 crimson hunters, and a laughing autarch. Nothing is too spammes and is is themed.
The only change i would make would probable be the war walkers but it is in the list until i decide what is better/ i want to put into my list more. It is middle competitive uses a few units with minimal spam. And is friendly and middle of the road list. Eldar codex can make fun medium lists but in competitive settings with win at all caust players they will always find a way to exploit codecies. I find tau are better than eldar, then its eldar, unless imperial guards or necrons get cheese with the air.

Automatically Appended Next Post:
Who cares if they are? The type of people who play eldar (the race that failed) are over confident just like their army, so you can beat them by out smarting their arrogance anyway heheh

You do realize some people played eldar for the aesthetic and theme of the army. I started collecting the models in 3rd edition and started playing at the end of 4th start of 5th. At times they were hard to play, and sometimes they were good. But none the less we stick to our armies. People who jump the bandwagon and go for the most op army are idiots but not all eldar players are the type of people you describe.I take a max of 3 serpents because my army for transportation needs them,( 2 da+FD) however i don't spam them like the people who want to auto win, and i used to run and still do a mostly bieltan army.(stupid gw for not making autarches allowing 2 as troops) But the fluff is pretty good and once all the codexies are up for 6th, i hope that 7th does a better job of balancing both internal and externally to the codex.

Martel732 wrote:

Grim Dark wrote:

 Vaktathi wrote:
Nobody *should* be OP, that's why we have points to assign value to units. Otherwise, why would you play anything but the OP race?

This is only important if you are considering a competitive environment like a tournament. Otherwise, you should be forging a narrative.

Cheers!

I have never once played a "forge the narrative" game in 20 years of 40K. I didn't know this GW drivel ever happened until I got on here.

Where's the narrative that the Eldar are supposed to lose once in a while?

/sarcasm


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Mahtamori wrote:

Grim Dark wrote:
The Eldar codex is what every codex should be.

No it's not. It's got horrible internal balance. I'd venture so far to say that the Eldar Codex has both the game's most overpowered and the games least useful units.

I meant as regards playability and optional lists.

Cheers.

Does any other race have

troops with pseudo-rending shooting?

A highly mobile toughness 8 monstrous creature that small arms cannot touch?

over 80% of weaponry AP 3, mostly AP 2, or able to be AP 2 (bladestorm)?

initiative striking ap 2 melee weapons?

an AP 2 flamer?

Eldar players pay for their rending. The Da cost as much as a marine but is one less toughness, one less strengh and has 6" less range. THe guardians are only range 12, and cost 3-4 points less than a marine, and only have a 5+ save.

Dire Avengers are a point cheaper than a space marine, and Guardians are five points cheaper.

Certainly Marines individually have some small advantages, but overall the Eldar army is better at a lot of things.

Although the Guardians do have a significantly shorter range, if they get within firefight range they do have a pretty good chance of mauling an equivalent points value of Space Marines.

Its true but when they start to engage at your range 24" you shoot, 10 shots, 6.67 hit, 4.44 wounds=dead guardians. guards move 6",run 4'. marines move 1 '" and fire full auto, total 13.33 dead guard. 7 make it in range and fire killing 5 marines. 5 marines shoot at rapid fire range total=17.77 dead guardians. guards kill 1.5 more= total 6.5 dead marines. marines finish off the guards. 20 guards cost more than 10 marines, and this is without special weapons.

 Slayer222 wrote:
Its true but when they start to engage at your range 24" you shoot, 10 shots, 6.67 hit, 4.44 wounds=dead guardians. guards move 6",run 4'. marines move 1 '" and fire full auto, total 13.33 dead guard. 7 make it in range and fire killing 5 marines. 5 marines shoot at rapid fire range total=17.77 dead guardians. guards kill 1.5 more= total 6.5 dead marines. marines finish off the guards. 20 guards cost more than 10 marines, and this is without special weapons.

I have never gotten to shoot boltguns at Eldar infantry in such quantity. They are all in indestructible Wave Serpents. I don't have that many boltguns left by the time I decmech the Eldar. I can't believe someone can defend this codex. It's the worst thing since the GK, and even better I think.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Slayer222 wrote:
Eldar players pay for their rending. The Da cost as much as a marine but is one less toughness, one less strengh and has 6" less range. THe guardians are only range 12, and cost 3-4 points less than a marine, and only have a 5+ save.

They don't pay enough. Teqs were bad enough before this codex hit. Now they are all paper weights.

Marines are an embarassing mess compared to this codex.

 Slayer222 wrote:
Its true but when they start to engage at your range 24" you shoot, 10 shots, 6.67 hit, 4.44 wounds=dead guardians. guards move 6",run 4'. marines move 1 '" and fire full auto, total 13.33 dead guard. 7 make it in range and fire killing 5 marines. 5 marines shoot at rapid fire range total=17.77 dead guardians. guards kill 1.5 more= total 6.5 dead marines. marines finish off the guards. 20 guards cost more than 10 marines, and this is without special weapons.

That sounds bleak. My condolences on having to tough out 6th edition with such a codex.

THis was commenting on your complaint on rending, i am not even going to begin to defend the serpent. Eldar have 3 op builds, seer council, Wraith spam(knight), and wave serpent spam. All else is moderate except banshees, harlequins, and the flyers(esp the wraith version), and the pheonix lords.

Grim Dark wrote:

 Vaktathi wrote:
Nobody *should* be OP, that's why we have points to assign value to units. Otherwise, why would you play anything but the OP race?

This is only important if you are considering a competitive environment like a tournament. Otherwise, you should be forging a narrative.

Cheers!

I was about to ask if you work for GW with a comment like that, but then realized that you were on the interwebz talking to people, so no, you can't be from GW.

 Slayer222 wrote:
THis was commenting on your complaint on rending, i am not even going to begin to defend the serpent. Eldar have 3 op builds, seer council, Wraith spam(knight), and wave serpent spam. All else is moderate except banshees, harlequins, and the flyers(esp the wraith version), and the pheonix lords.

It all kind of works together.

I think that in some ways the Eldar are where Necrons were in the end of 5th.

You have to deliberately limit yourself when choosing your army in order for your opponent to have fun.

It would be good if we could all turn up with armies built with units we like from our codex and have a roughly even chance of winning, but that doesn't seem to be how GW rolls.

 Slayer222 wrote:
Eldar players pay for their rending. The Da cost as much as a marine but is one less toughness, one less strengh and has 6" less range. THe guardians are only range 12, and cost 3-4 points less than a marine, and only have a 5+ save.

They don't, really, because they also get battle-focus and assault weapons (instead of the vastly inferior rapid-fire) thrown in for free.

They have 18'' range, but that means little because battle-focus allows them to consistently kite out of marine's rapid-fire range, ensuring that they'll always put out twice as many shots as a tac squad.

Literally, the only things Marines have that DA don't is the 3+ save and ATSKNF, the latter of which is one of the most overrated perks in 6th edition.

Freman Bloodglaive wrote:
I think that in some ways the Eldar are where Necrons were in the end of 5th.

You have to deliberately limit yourself when choosing your army in order for your opponent to have fun.

It would be good if we could all turn up with armies built with units we like from our codex and have a roughly even chance of winning, but that doesn't seem to be how GW rolls.

5th ed crons weren't anywhere near as OP...

Da 10 vs marine 10 with heavy bolter.(the worst heavy weapon). lets say Da enter 24". Marines shoot, kill 3.67. 6Da move into 18" shoot dart out killing 2.67. The marines kill 2.97 total=(6.64).
3 remaining Da kill 1.3 (3.97). Marines-2.77 (9.41...........
They also have +1 s/t, and the marines special rule is really good with alot of the fear going around, without it the wraith fighter would be 3 times as effective.
In short the marines win loosing a little less than half.
The pseudo rending is great but eldar pay for more offense with less defense.
This was without using rapid fire range, rapid fire weaponry also got a great boost in 6th edition and tau love their pulse rifles.

(necrons are still op so...) (and with 6th edition they got a boost flyers everywhere).

 BlaxicanX wrote:
Literally, the only things Marines have that DA don't is the 3+ save and ATSKNF, the latter of which is one of the most overrated perks in 6th edition.

And 6 inches less range (meaning the marines could get the first shots off) and T3 instead of 4. But nobody cares about it because almost everyone puts their Dire Avengers into a Serpent which is "clever" because it negates their weak points. So actually this is whining about the Serpent (like Hater no. 1 martel034876 about the Guardians which are estimated too strong because they always go with a Serpent).

I forgot, the DA got the powerful close combat Exarch. Helps a lot when kiting out all sorts of enemies!

Yes eldar have synergy ways to fix some of their problems and weaknesses. But. If you disclude the serpent as already op, and conclude the 2 units in a vacum one is superior against the other, now marines are usually in cover firing their heavy weapons and da usually have to rush forward to get within shooting range. (guardians have the options of heavy weapons but they are less effective than on other platforms. Oh and serpents if you spam them you have to atleast pay a troops tax of 65 points. meaning the its costing you 200+ points for that serpent.

DOOMONYOU wrote:
Does any other race have

troops with pseudo-rending shooting?

A highly mobile toughness 8 monstrous creature that small arms cannot touch?

over 80% of weaponry AP 3, mostly AP 2, or able to be AP 2 (bladestorm)?

initiative striking ap 2 melee weapons?

an AP 2 flamer?

(Dire Avenger) ShuriCat = AP5 / rend
ShuriCan = AP4 / rend
Lasblaster = AP5
* Sunrifle = AP3
* Hawk Talon = AP5
Longrifle = AP5 / rend
Starcannon = AP2
Scatter Laser = AP-
Deathspinner = AP- / rend
* Spinnerete Rifle = AP2
Shadow Weaver = AP- / rend
Nightspinner = AP- / rend
Missile Launcher (Star) = AP3
Missile Launcher (Plasma) = AP4
Prism (lance) = AP1
Prism (focus) = AP2
Prism (disperse) = AP3
Bright Lance = AP2
Wraithcannon = AP2
Heavy Wraithcannon = AP2
D-Scythe = AP2
Heavy D-Scythe = AP2
D-Cannon = AP2
Vibrocannon = AP4/3/2 depending on number of hits
Reaper Launcher = AP3
* Reaper Exarch's barrage thingy = AP3

80% wasn't a bad guess after all, now that I list them - depending on how hyperbole you want to go on the pseudo-rending. Most weapons are placed on platforms where you expect AP3 or better, though. Should be noted that Shadow Weaver actually lost rending (it was downgraded to pseudo).

Galorian wrote:

Freman Bloodglaive wrote:
I think that in some ways the Eldar are where Necrons were in the end of 5th.

You have to deliberately limit yourself when choosing your army in order for your opponent to have fun.

It would be good if we could all turn up with armies built with units we like from our codex and have a roughly even chance of winning, but that doesn't seem to be how GW rolls.

5th ed crons weren't anywhere near as OP...

You mustn't have played with a good 'cron, or possibly they can't have had enough Douche Cannoes or those rending 3++ wraith thingies whatever their name is.

 Slayer222 wrote:
Da 10 vs marine 10 with heavy bolter.(the worst heavy weapon). lets say Da enter 24". Marines shoot, kill 3.67. 6Da move into 18" shoot dart out killing 2.67. The marines kill 2.97 total=(6.64).
3 remaining Da kill 1.3 (3.97). Marines-2.77 (9.41...........
They also have +1 s/t, and the marines special rule is really good with alot of the fear going around, without it the wraith fighter would be 3 times as effective.
In short the marines win loosing a little less than half.
The pseudo rending is great but eldar pay for more offense with less defense.
This was without using rapid fire range, rapid fire weaponry also got a great boost in 6th edition and tau love their pulse rifles.

(necrons are still op so...) (and with 6th edition they got a boost flyers everywhere).

-Dire Avengers get a good deal for a nice stateline, the ability to run and shoot (this is a pretty big deal, actually), and high-strength, assault weapons which are good at drowning units in shots AND getting through heavy armour (hell, any wound you score on most MCs is going to be AP2) and can glance AV 10 to death. To top it all off 4+ armour is good against AP- to AP5 and you're not loosing out as bad as 3+ armour units when something AP3 or better decides to shoot at them. In my experience AP4 weapons are relatively rare--the only really common ones I see are the Autocannon and Psycannon, and if your opponent is shooting your Avengers with those then you've won the game or you're hopelessly loosing.

-Tactical Marines pay a point more than Dire Avengers for a less-impressive gun with either 6" more range, but half the shots, or equal damage output against light infantry and AV 10 at 12" , but struggles with heavier armour (especially 2+). The marines get +1 S/T (the Strength doesn't really matter), Frag and Krak grenades (in general Tactical Marines don't want to be on assault duty, though), and Power Armour as advantages over the Avengers. Unfortunately the opponent is actually getting more of their points' worth out of killing Marines with his Battle Cannons and Baleflamers than he is when he uses those against Dire Avengers. Whereas the Dire Avenger's 4+ armour is just right in terms of efficiency, 3+ armour is just way to easy to ignore or drown in cheap shooting to be a more efficient use of points than the Dire Avengers' focus on killing power.

The only other thing that Marines have going for them is their ability to dabble in other roles (a la Combi/Special/Heavy weapons)--but this costs yet more points and often times these weapons are used against something which boltguns aren't efficient at killing. When X Marines fight X Dire Avengers the marines stand a good chance, but I think Dire Avengers are much more efficient overall--in short it feels like I'm getting a pretty good bargain when I take Dire Avengers, but I feel like I'm paying some sort of Imperial Points Tax when I take Marines.

 Slayer222 wrote:
Yes eldar have synergy ways to fix some of their problems and weaknesses. But. If you disclude the serpent as already op, and conclude the 2 units in a vacum one is superior against the other, now marines are usually in cover firing their heavy weapons and da usually have to rush forward to get within shooting range. (guardians have the options of heavy weapons but they are less effective than on other platforms. Oh and serpents if you spam them you have to atleast pay a troops tax of 65 points. meaning the its costing you 200+ points for that serpent.

You keep changing the boundaries to make the Eldar look bad (which is hard to do) - so now the Marines are in cover and the Eldar aren't - but then you are missing out on one of the many issues with Cheese Serpents - they ignore cover..............

The so called "tax" on the serpent is usually small Scoring units which you have to take anyway in order to claim objectives etc - so its not a tax but actually a way of having your cake and eating it. Compare the Serpent with the Rhino or Razorback which the Serpent also is able to shred with its super death kill shield gun

They have the same basic weapons, same BS - except of course the Eldar get Rending and Assault 2, yes its 6" less range but they have battle focus to let them choose what range they are at. Both get armour saves against primary weapon. If the Marines want to get in CC they have to use Bolt Pistols, both are same WS and BS but the Eldar strike first in Close Combat - which is huge if they have someone with a power weapon and force shield, like a DA Exarch?

base 10 man Tac squad is 140pts with no upgrades, Base 10 man DA squad is 130pts with no upgrade, now no one plays either like this.......but that's a straight comparison.

The big problem is the Serpent - as you say why use anything else - that means either the other transports are reubbish (which they are not) or the Serpent is OP - which it patently is.

I'm actually fine with marines sucking. I would really like them to be bottom tier army instead of middle of the road. After all the poster time its good that the xenos, tau, eldar, nids, (hopefully orks), and so on get some attention. Yes i know 3+/2+ saves aren't as good as they used to be, hell i play grey knight and don't spam henchmen and every model counts but against general fire/ 2/3 of the fire eldar give out they still get their save since the wounding is only on 6's. All this pseudo rend was given probable to deal with the t9 monsterous (biomancy) creatures like every other codex got we just happened to get it on our shuriken weapons that used to suck so badly that eldar players used to cry. ( but after marines get kicked around for atleast a year or two then i would say its okay to let them get back up, to bad they had to make them middle of the road oh well).


Automatically Appended Next Post:
we also don't have any other options for dedicated transports.



As for dedicated transports "weapon platforms" look at razor backs. (not saying they are op). They can take las and a twin linked plasma cannon, and have 2 for the price of our serpents. Yes they loos the shield but no one is counting the shield defensively in this scenario. They also have 1 less av to front /side but now have 2x the amount of hull points in the army. Giving the fact that you can plump them in cover to atleast get a 5+ cover save These two vehicles can put out serious damage for a dedicated transport.

My bad I Missed that you can't take a Falcon as a DT - another error in the Codex then

If you want seriously want another army to suck that I can't take you seriously - the point of the game is for everyone to have a good army and have fun not make "your" army OP and screw everyone else....that's just sad.

Razorbacks don't get Fast, Skimmer, jink, holo fields, serpent shield, carry only 6 people, have less AP, no pseudo rending weapons......and so on

The Wave Serpent can also have extra AT guns - Bright Lance for 5pts - S8, AP2 Lance, not that it needs it due to the cheese shield gun

Razorback in cover - is that the thing that the Serpent ignores - oh yes it is when it fires D6+1 S7 TL shots at it..........at range 60", bye bye Razorback

 Mr Morden wrote:
My bad I Missed that you can't take a Falcon as a DT - another error in the Codex then

If you want seriously want another army to suck that I can't take you seriously - the point of the game is for everyone to have a good army and have fun not make "your" army OP and screw everyone else....that's just sad.

Razorbacks don't get Fast, Skimmer, jink, holo fields, serpent shield, carry only 6 people, have less AP, no pseudo rending weapons......and so on

The Wave Serpent can also have extra AT guns - Bright Lance for 5pts - S8, AP2 Lance, not that it needs it due to the cheese shield gun

Razorback in cover - is that the thing that the Serpent ignores - oh yes it is when it fires D6+1 S7 TL shots at it..........at range 60", bye bye Razorback

Pretty much this. Eldar transports are pure

Well its either serpents or bike armies. The basic troops can't survive outside of them, if they made falcons dedicated and 1 more option(assault variant), i would be happy and gladly give up my serpent shield gun. But they don't and its 1 of 2 options on how to play with troops. If the autarch could make a set of 2 slots free for aspects as troops with dedicated transports other than the falcon, take the shield away and give us our diversity.

Freman Bloodglaive wrote:
I think that in some ways the Eldar are where Necrons were in the end of 5th.

You have to deliberately limit yourself when choosing your army in order for your opponent to have fun.

It would be good if we could all turn up with armies built with units we like from our codex and have a roughly even chance of winning, but that doesn't seem to be how GW rolls.

I would agree to this if the Eldar list wasn't a good bit harder to put together than the Necron one. The cost to put together said Eldar list is astronomical compared to the list the Necrons could build and not nearly as one-sided. At least now we run into Screamerstar and it turns into a slap-fight, Necrons had no such issue due to their flyer heavy list.

Necrons are still potent. Make no mistake. To my knowledge, no one is saying they aren't. But they can not wipe my meqs off the table nearly as quickly as Eldar. Or really anyone else as well. Tyranids? Eldar lol with their armada of S6/7. Necrons start to sweat just a bit.

Early 6th ed Necrons were OP because of the general lack of AA in the meta at the time, once people started adjusting the flying circus stopped being an auto-win button.

It's still strong, though. Eldar/Tau are moving people back away from AA. At least where I play. Eldar/Tau will erase your face much faster than helldrakes.

Thats funny s 6 has nothing on necron flyers. and in my meta, semi competitive we have two tau + two eldar players, the tau players played kroot army and died horendously, just like my scorpions army...

Aren't Night Scythes AV 11? S6/7 works fine.

av 13 till you pen them

Martel732 wrote:
Aren't Night Scythes AV 11? S6/7 works fine.

When I have scythes in reserve and my opponent has a quad gun that thing usually becomes priority target No.1...

I've yet to manage to fire a death ray on the turn my doomscythe enters the game in a game where my opponent still had a quad gun up and running that turn- it always gets shot down/weapon destroyed/can only snapfire.

 Slayer222 wrote:
av 13 till you pen them

Oh yeah that rule. Sounds like you are using Serpent shields to hull point them out. The smallest fiddle in the world is playing for the Eldar. Maybe you could take less Wave Serpents and bring a Crimson Hunter, like I have to often take a Stormraven/talon. Alternatively, you can use your Jetseer Council to table their ground troops.

 Slayer222 wrote:
av 13 till you pen them

Necron flyers don't have quantum shielding...

 Galorian wrote:

 Slayer222 wrote:
av 13 till you pen them

Necron flyers don't have quantum shielding...

I was gonna say......

 Slayer222 wrote:
I'm actually fine with marines sucking. I would really like them to be bottom tier army instead of middle of the road. After all the poster time its good that the xenos, tau, eldar, nids, (hopefully orks), and so on get some attention. Yes i know 3+/2+ saves aren't as good as they used to be, hell i play grey knight and don't spam henchmen and every model counts but against general fire/ 2/3 of the fire eldar give out they still get their save since the wounding is only on 6's. All this pseudo rend was given probable to deal with the t9 monsterous (biomancy) creatures like every other codex got we just happened to get it on our shuriken weapons that used to suck so badly that eldar players used to cry. ( but after marines get kicked around for atleast a year or two then i would say its okay to let them get back up, to bad they had to make them middle of the road oh well).


Automatically Appended Next Post:
we also don't have any other options for dedicated transports.



As for dedicated transports "weapon platforms" look at razor backs. (not saying they are op). They can take las and a twin linked plasma cannon, and have 2 for the price of our serpents. Yes they loos the shield but no one is counting the shield defensively in this scenario. They also have 1 less av to front /side but now have 2x the amount of hull points in the army. Giving the fact that you can plump them in cover to atleast get a 5+ cover save These two vehicles can put out serious damage for a dedicated transport.

First off, where was CSM's answer to T9? Second of all, where is all this T9? DP? They can only get to T8 with luck, Nurgle? He can get to 9... by way of luck. Nids? They could get to 9... on a lucky role... until their codex is updated... so where are these T9 units? I've seen extra low ap weapons and MC with stupidly good saves and phenomenal guns with great mobility the majority of the time usually with a decent invuln save.

Anyways, seriously? You want SM, BA, SW, GK, DA, and CSM to all suck? 6 armies!? Really? Also guess what. You know the poor Tau? Well in 4th they weren't so poor. Poor Eldar? Ever remember the days of Eldar skimmer spam? Or maybe 2E Eldar broken fun? Don't you remember the chaos daemon white dwarf of joy? The flying Necron circus with wraiths at the beginning of 6th edition? Along with that, CSM hasn't had a high tier codex sense 3.5E and has housed such bitterness, rage and fury throughout much of 4th, 5th, and even 6th but nooo they got the held rake so who cares?

Here is the thing, no army should be better or worse than another, wishing it is idiocy. This game is for fun, what is fun about having to suffer years as an inferior codex? That just brings bitterness. And what? If all SM codices suffer for years as drastically inferior, does that not validate for them too to be superior to Xenos and daemons? Which will then continue the cycle of grudges and bitterness?

EDIT: I'm not saying the Eldar codex isn't flawed. It is. It has some bad holes Pocking through it, but it also is one of the top two codices currently. It has several broken lists and overall has better synergy and also overall better units. That isn't saying they don't have disasters like... banshees... Nor so I deny I still don't get why they would give guardians range 12" guns. And DA? Why would you not put them in a wave serpent? It solves pretty much all of their flaws and problems and places them in the best transport in the game. Tau's? Ain't got nothing. Rhinos( what a joke? Razorbacks? Yeah those were good last edition. The wave serpent just wins it all. A fast skimmer, super mobile, extreme dakka, extremely durable with a decent AV but more importantly a jink save that can be made better with an upgrade? Who can blame them for deploying it?

Exalted StarTrotter.

Martel732 wrote:
Exalted StarTrotter.

Indeed. Me too.

Seriously, all I (we) want is for codices to be roughly equal. This is not remotely the case right now.

 Slayer222 wrote:
av 13 till you pen them

False that is only things with the quantum shielding rule. That includes ghost arcs, annilation barges, triach stalkers? but most definitely NOT night scythes. They are AV11 always

edit: ninja'd

That means Nightscythes are totally hosed against Eldar. Hey Necron buddy! Take a number with my BA!

martel piss of, i have told everyone my lists on multiple forums and i run 2 night wing interceptors and limit my self to 3 serpents, 2 for troops and 1 for fire dragons, and if falcons where dedicated transport i would take that instead for my fire dragons to have a better theme, but they aren't. And shut up about the fiddle when players literally gut themselves and used the codex since the time when is sucked and it took skill to actually beat anyone. And now many players still gut themselves just to have diversity and fun so if you want me to battle you with a cheese list that will make you cry fin but other than that look at the player and list history before comenting. Go to eldar necessary changes and see how i would gladely loose the shield to 18" range or over nerfes if they fixed some other things in the codex for more balance.



And for the guys saying the necrons flyers don't get the shields, the guy presented the codex in front of me and it said that the flyers had the shields so... where does it say differently. I would really like to know because he brings the most flyers (imperial guard/necrons) and it would be sweet if we could find a way to knock his flyers down a level(atleast the necron ones.)

If you ever read my posts, I say that players shouldn't have to self-nerf. Eldar can crush Necrons with the tools they have. My marines don't even have the tools to do this.

Having looked at my local necron players book multiple times I can say that night scythes do not have the quantum shielding. They do have living metal which makes them ignore shaken or stunned results after a roll (pretty sure thats how it works). So I do not know what to tell you but I know for a fact that night scythes do not have AV13 at any point

Bharring wrote:
It's really just the Serpent Sheild's shooting that's gamebreaking. The jetseer council is also OP, but at about the same OP level as many other problems. WKnights are a little on the strong side too. While people complain about everything else too, we generally pay for all our toys.

About half the threads in Proposed Rules mention merging the Shield (my favorite is to treat the range as a typo - 6" on the sheild's shooting instead of 60" seems like it would fix everything)...

The Jetseer Council fails if it cannot bring their spells through. For instance, Shadows in the Warp (Nids) gives a malus of -3 and this will become a big issue when the Seers come too close to a synapse creature.

 wuestenfux wrote:

Bharring wrote:
It's really just the Serpent Sheild's shooting that's gamebreaking. The jetseer council is also OP, but at about the same OP level as many other problems. WKnights are a little on the strong side too. While people complain about everything else too, we generally pay for all our toys.

About half the threads in Proposed Rules mention merging the Shield (my favorite is to treat the range as a typo - 6" on the sheild's shooting instead of 60" seems like it would fix everything)...

The Jetseer Council fails if it cannot bring their spells through. For instance, Shadows in the Warp (Nids) gives a malus of -3 and this will become a big issue when the Seers come too close to a synapse creature.

I'd pay money to see that I hate the Jetseers so much. Nom nom nom Nids!

 Slayer222 wrote:
And for the guys saying the necrons flyers don't get the shields, the guy presented the codex in front of me and it said that the flyers had the shields so... where does it say differently. I would really like to know because he brings the most flyers (imperial guard/necrons) and it would be sweet if we could find a way to knock his flyers down a level(atleast the necron ones.)

Then your friend either didn't read his own codex or was lying through his teeth at you and counting on you not actually reading the pages he was flashing your way.

I've been playing Necrons for a while now and ordered my scythes the moment an actual model was released and I assure you that they do not have quantum shielding.

Yeah read the codex on my pdf and compared it to the death from the skyes and the "flyers" don't have it. I also corrected him 2x on his repair barge not creating models aboe the original max, and that on a pen his quantim shields actually go away.

 Slayer222 wrote:
Yeah read the codex on my pdf and compared it to the death from the skyes and the "flyers" don't have it. I also corrected him 2x on his repair barge not creating models aboe the original max, and that on a pen his quantim shields actually go away.

DAMN! That's quite the laundry list...

Hey, look! The Eldar are back on top when you play by the actual rules.

Martel732 wrote:
Hey, look! The Eldar are back on top when you play by the actual rules.

Pfff.... Actual rules?

What kind of sick deviant plays by THOSE??

Now I really want quantum shielding on my scythes :(

I wouldn't say Eldar are overpowered, but rather they are a good codex plagued by two broken units: the Wave Serpent and the Jet Seer Council. I field only 1 Wave Serpent and no Jet Seers, and nobody brings up "Eldar=OP" when I win. Call it self-nerf, I call it trying other lists.
With sincerity, if the Wave Serpent would cost more and the Seer Council denied Jetbikes (unless Warlock splits off), then people would find the Eldar codex to be "just good" and not OP.

 ScabiusBile wrote:
Wraithknights are OP. At the cost of a landraider they are vastly superior in every way, movement, shooting, assault. They fill a weak spot in the Eldar codex, causing them to have almost none that I can recall. Waveserpents have already been discussed. The Eldar and Tau codi are unbalanced in comparison to other codex at this point in time. I would almost put daemons up there with them but they are assault, which everyone agrees is not in favour this addition and they have access to 2++ reroll able, which is now being banned/nerfed in major competitive tournaments.

Damn straight.

Let me get my TEQ Power Weapon Wielding Eldar warriors of doom inside the belly of the Wraithknight, storm across the field and unload all that death in your face.

In case you haven't noticed, the Land Raider has AV14 and is a transport.



Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Likan Wolfsheim wrote:

 Slayer222 wrote:
Da 10 vs marine 10 with heavy bolter.(the worst heavy weapon). lets say Da enter 24". Marines shoot, kill 3.67. 6Da move into 18" shoot dart out killing 2.67. The marines kill 2.97 total=(6.64).
3 remaining Da kill 1.3 (3.97). Marines-2.77 (9.41...........
They also have +1 s/t, and the marines special rule is really good with alot of the fear going around, without it the wraith fighter would be 3 times as effective.
In short the marines win loosing a little less than half.
The pseudo rending is great but eldar pay for more offense with less defense.
This was without using rapid fire range, rapid fire weaponry also got a great boost in 6th edition and tau love their pulse rifles.

(necrons are still op so...) (and with 6th edition they got a boost flyers everywhere).

-Dire Avengers get a good deal for a nice stateline, the ability to run and shoot (this is a pretty big deal, actually), and high-strength, assault weapons which are good at drowning units in shots AND getting through heavy armour (hell, any wound you score on most MCs is going to be AP2) and can glance AV 10 to death. To top it all off 4+ armour is good against AP- to AP5 and you're not loosing out as bad as 3+ armour units when something AP3 or better decides to shoot at them. In my experience AP4 weapons are relatively rare--the only really common ones I see are the Autocannon and Psycannon, and if your opponent is shooting your Avengers with those then you've won the game or you're hopelessly loosing.

-Tactical Marines pay a point more than Dire Avengers for a less-impressive gun with either 6" more range, but half the shots, or equal damage output against light infantry and AV 10 at 12" , but struggles with heavier armour (especially 2+). The marines get +1 S/T (the Strength doesn't really matter), Frag and Krak grenades (in general Tactical Marines don't want to be on assault duty, though), and Power Armour as advantages over the Avengers. Unfortunately the opponent is actually getting more of their points' worth out of killing Marines with his Battle Cannons and Baleflamers than he is when he uses those against Dire Avengers. Whereas the Dire Avenger's 4+ armour is just right in terms of efficiency, 3+ armour is just way to easy to ignore or drown in cheap shooting to be a more efficient use of points than the Dire Avengers' focus on killing power.

The only other thing that Marines have going for them is their ability to dabble in other roles (a la Combi/Special/Heavy weapons)--but this costs yet more points and often times these weapons are used against something which boltguns aren't efficient at killing. When X Marines fight X Dire Avengers the marines stand a good chance, but I think Dire Avengers are much more efficient overall--in short it feels like I'm getting a pretty good bargain when I take Dire Avengers, but I feel like I'm paying some sort of Imperial Points Tax when I take Marines.

Tactical Marines are better than guardians or Dire Avengers and they have better options.
Better save, better toughness, better strength, better options, ATSNKF, easier to paint, available in every starter set, etc.

3+ save means you take 33% instead of 50% losses on AP5+, 33% instead of 100% on AP4, and 100% instead of 100% on AP3-
T4 means you take 50% instead of 66% losses on S4, 66% instead of 83% on S5, and 83% instead of 83% on S6+
It also makes your base profile only take ID on S8+ instead of S6+ for the Eldar.

So yes, it does not save you from bad tactical decisions, and it may not look as sexy as eldar troops, but the fact is that MEQ has an incredible statline compared to Eldar sissies.

There *may* be an issue with the Wave Serpent spam, against lists that lack AV fire and thus cannot take advantage of the dropped shield, I'll check that when I get back to the game.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Mr Morden wrote:

 Slayer222 wrote:
Yes eldar have synergy ways to fix some of their problems and weaknesses. But. If you disclude the serpent as already op, and conclude the 2 units in a vacum one is superior against the other, now marines are usually in cover firing their heavy weapons and da usually have to rush forward to get within shooting range. (guardians have the options of heavy weapons but they are less effective than on other platforms. Oh and serpents if you spam them you have to atleast pay a troops tax of 65 points. meaning the its costing you 200+ points for that serpent.

You keep changing the boundaries to make the Eldar look bad (which is hard to do) - so now the Marines are in cover and the Eldar aren't - but then you are missing out on one of the many issues with Cheese Serpents - they ignore cover..............

The so called "tax" on the serpent is usually small Scoring units which you have to take anyway in order to claim objectives etc - so its not a tax but actually a way of having your cake and eating it. Compare the Serpent with the Rhino or Razorback which the Serpent also is able to shred with its super death kill shield gun

They have the same basic weapons, same BS - except of course the Eldar get Rending and Assault 2, yes its 6" less range but they have battle focus to let them choose what range they are at. Both get armour saves against primary weapon. If the Marines want to get in CC they have to use Bolt Pistols, both are same WS and BS but the Eldar strike first in Close Combat - which is huge if they have someone with a power weapon and force shield, like a DA Exarch?

base 10 man Tac squad is 140pts with no upgrades, Base 10 man DA squad is 130pts with no upgrade, now no one plays either like this.......but that's a straight comparison.

The big problem is the Serpent - as you say why use anything else - that means either the other transports are reubbish (which they are not) or the Serpent is OP - which it patently is.

Are you comparing a 145 points (Shuriken Cannon, Holo-fields, TL Scatter Laser) Wave Serpent of doom with a 35 point Rhino ?

On another note, does anyone know how a 145 points Tactical Marine squad equipped for TAC / AV will fare against a decked out Wave Serpent ?

On another note, does anyone know how a 145 points Tactical Marine squad equipped for TAC / AV will fare against a decked out Wave Serpent ?

It does very bad . its 1 Missile Launcher shot vs what ever the serpent has .

Eldar are top tier. I would say OP. Do they need a nerf? No. They just need to give some other codex some love. I for one would hate to be a Dark Angels player.

I miss my 5th Ed nids. Ahh Drop pods w Zoans and Doom. That Terv spam up the middle. No one could dela w that. A SitW that actually hurt psykers.

Drop pod, plasma + combiplas, and that Tac squad is doing a hull point or two and forcing the player to either kill the Tac squad or move the Serpent too much to shoot all-out.

On rear armor, they're torching the Serpent.

CSM marines are the same points as DAs. 3+ and t4 are both simply better than 4+ and t3. The margin is debatable, but it is undeniably better. Besides, there are a lot of high-ROF ap4 options to both of my armies.

Honestly, bolters do serious damage to Footdar. Just stop letting them dictate engagement terms.

Everyone agrees the Serpent needs a nerf, the council needed (and may still need) a nerf, and the WraithKnight is at least really good, probably OP. But please start looking at the rest of the army more fairly. There are a lot of Eldar armies that don't abuse those.

 Mythra wrote:
Eldar are top tier. I would say OP. Do they need a nerf? No. They just need to give some other codex some love. I for one would hate to be a Dark Angels player.

I miss my 5th Ed nids. Ahh Drop pods w Zoans and Doom. That Terv spam up the middle. No one could dela w that. A SitW that actually hurt psykers.

Wraithknights need a price hike and a lower Strength stat (10?? Seriously?! Even the Transcended C'tan doesn't get that, and he's a goddamn miniature god), Serpent Shield needs to be nerfed hard (cut the range down to 6" or 12" and it might just be reasonable).

Martel732 wrote:
Eldar could win in 5th. They just had very few viable units. But the scatter laser was still broken as hell. If your Eldar players were whipping boys in 5th, they sucked as Eldar players. I saw space marine list after space marine list get mopped up by Seer councils and War walkers in 5th.

No they couldn't, between this and your opinion on d-scythes, you've pretty much put yourself in the "L2P Noob" category.

It seems that the biggest problem with the Serpent is that it's not FoC-limited, not that it's too good for its 145 points.

I guess there are better things out there than a 145 points AV12 Transport that deals 4S6AP6 and then TL (4S7AP-) shots within 36" OR 4S6AP6 and then TL ( 4S7AP- + 3S6AP5 ) shots within 24".

Isn't that a bit meh when compared to a Riptide or Wraith Knight (say one Riptide vs a minimum size unit of guardians/DA in a Wave Serpent) ?

If that's the case, then is the only problem that the FoC pushes us to use crappy units and people hate the Eldar for having a great option ?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Ravenous D wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
Eldar could win in 5th. They just had very few viable units. But the scatter laser was still broken as hell. If your Eldar players were whipping boys in 5th, they sucked as Eldar players. I saw space marine list after space marine list get mopped up by Seer councils and War walkers in 5th.

No they couldn't, between this and your opinion on d-scythes, you've pretty much put yourself in the "L2P Noob" category.

I didn't do any tournaments, but I recall other Mech Eldar lists doing OK, with WS+ fire dragons, 9 Vypers, 9 Walkers, DA minsquad + WS. It did not seem from the results that Eldar were OP though. Plus they had just nerfed rending on the Harlies correct ?

I mopped up people, but they weren't playing competitively so it's meaningless.

IIRC, the scatter laser wasn't broken as hell, it was the only viable Eldar option to produce enough saturation to get a balanced list.

A fast moving army can put serious pressure on a Serpent spam. I was first thinking about a flying circus to underpin this but its now weaker due to the new swooping/gliding restriction.

Nevertheless you need to keep the enemy at arm's length since the Serpents are very vulnerable in cc.

Serpents benefit from the jink rule in turn 1 when going 2nd. Its no longer necessary to look for cover since they can jink anyway.

 Vaktathi wrote:

 lobbywatson wrote:
In their defense the most advanced oldest race in the galaxy should be OP.

They're also a dying race where each casualty is a critical loss...

Nobody *should* be OP, that's why we have points to assign value to units. Otherwise, why would you play anything but the OP race?

Agreed Fluff-wise you can say this and that about who is stronger thats fine. When it comes to gaming and rules all armies should have equal standing and not have anything over the top, not even one uber kill deathstar in each codex. IMHO each player with any codex choosing 1 HQ and 2 troops at equal points value,should go toe to toe. Tactics and occasional good or bad dice should be the only factor that determines a massacre over a draw.

in short each codex should be developed with a draw in mind. thus creating a game based on tactics....and maybe a bit o luck

morgoth wrote:
It seems that the biggest problem with the Serpent is that it's not FoC-limited, not that it's too good for its 145 points.

I guess there are better things out there than a 145 points AV12 Transport that deals 4S6AP6 and then TL (4S7AP-) shots within 36" OR 4S6AP6 and then TL ( 4S7AP- + 3S6AP5 ) shots within 24".

Isn't that a bit meh when compared to a Riptide or Wraith Knight (say one Riptide vs a minimum size unit of guardians/DA in a Wave Serpent) ?

If that's the case, then is the only problem that the FoC pushes us to use crappy units and people hate the Eldar for having a great option ?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Ravenous D wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
Eldar could win in 5th. They just had very few viable units. But the scatter laser was still broken as hell. If your Eldar players were whipping boys in 5th, they sucked as Eldar players. I saw space marine list after space marine list get mopped up by Seer councils and War walkers in 5th.

No they couldn't, between this and your opinion on d-scythes, you've pretty much put yourself in the "L2P Noob" category.

I didn't do any tournaments, but I recall other Mech Eldar lists doing OK, with WS+ fire dragons, 9 Vypers, 9 Walkers, DA minsquad + WS. It did not seem from the results that Eldar were OP though. Plus they had just nerfed rending on the Harlies correct ?

I mopped up people, but they weren't playing competitively so it's meaningless.

IIRC, the scatter laser wasn't broken as hell, it was the only viable Eldar option to produce enough saturation to get a balanced list.

Right so "I play Eldar Cheese but its not broken cos the people I thrashed did not play well" - not a great argument......

Same with - here is another cheesy unit (Riptide) my Wave Serpent may not be as totally awesome - the shame.

Wave Serpents equal total cheese - they are even better in 7th Edition - not at all what was needed.

My research into Eldar, when I was deciding what faction to play (before the new Dex), saw them regarded as brokenly bad, with a few good options (WW w/sc, for instance). I mean, everyone thought a t3 5+ with a standard powered 12" gun wasn't worth much. This didn't appear debatable then (although I was new to the community).

Eldar are OP now, but that doesn't mean the other poster was lying about them not always being OP.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Please stop equating "Not all Eldar is ridiculously OP" with "Serpents aren't OP". That is not what most of us are saying.

 Mr Morden wrote:

Right so "I play Eldar Cheese but its not broken cos the people I thrashed did not play well" - not a great argument......

Same with - here is another cheesy unit (Riptide) my Wave Serpent may not be as totally awesome - the shame.

Wave Serpents equal total cheese - they are even better in 7th Edition - not at all what was needed.

I was just making the point that Eldar were *playable* in v5, even though they were clearly having a hard time against other armies at the same level of optimization.

The Riptide and Wraith Knight seem to both vastly outclass the Wave Serpent point for point, which implies two things:

1. There are other units (a lot of them) which outclass the Wave Serpent point for point
2. The problem may not be the Wave Serpent utility vs its point cost, but rather its availability, which may be why the stronger units do not seem to piss you off as much.

If you don't want to figure out what's wrong with the Serpent, keep on asking for some random nerf that will not solve your problem and make a nice unit worse in the process.

morgoth wrote:

 Mr Morden wrote:

Right so "I play Eldar Cheese but its not broken cos the people I thrashed did not play well" - not a great argument......

Same with - here is another cheesy unit (Riptide) my Wave Serpent may not be as totally awesome - the shame.

Wave Serpents equal total cheese - they are even better in 7th Edition - not at all what was needed.

I was just making the point that Eldar were *playable* in v5, even though they were clearly having a hard time against other armies at the same level of optimization.

The Riptide and Wraith Knight seem to both vastly outclass the Wave Serpent point for point, which implies two things:

1. There are other units (a lot of them) which outclass the Wave Serpent point for point
2. The problem may not be the Wave Serpent utility vs its point cost, but rather its availability, which may be why the stronger units do not seem to piss you off as much.

If you don't want to figure out what's wrong with the Serpent, keep on asking for some random nerf that will not solve your problem and make a nice unit worse in the process.

The problems with the Wave Serpent are abudently clear to everyone:

Its the only DT that the Eldar have.... they need alts that would mean units like Banhsees become usable
Its insanely durable and made even more so with the new Jink Rules
It has way too much and too good firepower especially against other transports
Its a super scoring unit to add insult to injury in 7th Ed

Pray tell which units are better than the Wave Serpent as a transport and all round gunship and are not also considered OP?

.

Eldar overpowered?

Wave serpents could be cheaper. They can't cast powers on their Marker Light brothers any more, though.

 Mr Morden wrote:

The problems with the Wave Serpent are abudently clear to everyone:

Its the only DT that the Eldar have.... they need alts that would mean units like Banhsees become usable
Its insanely durable and made even more so with the new Jink Rules
It has way too much and too good firepower especially against other transports
Its a super scoring unit to add insult to injury in 7th Ed

Pray tell which units are better than the Wave Serpent as a transport and all round gunship and are not also considered OP?

1. Banshees are broken until they errata the grenades, no amount of DT gonna change nothing. PLUS, having a kickass DT is signature Eldar. Expensive, sleek, efficient.
2. It is insanely durable when it does not fire (145 points of not firing), it is incredibly paper thin when it does (AV12/10)
3. It has little to no firepower when it keeps its shield, decent firepower for 145 points when it drops it
4. There is no scoring in my WH40K. I wipe you off the table or you wipe me off, it doesn't take 5 turns to have a clear undisputed rampage if you play offensive and either player gets an edge.


If the Wave Serpent was OP for its cost, there'd be no jetCouncil, no support choices, only WS.

But it's not OP, it's a very nice way to spend your points on a good unit rather than lackluster ones.

Your enemy is the FoC and the intra-codex balance, not the Wave Serpent.

If you could take good units with good synergy in every slot of your FoC, you wouldn't even notice the Wave Serpents, and there'd be a lot less of them too, because Eldar would have better options.

stopcallingmechief wrote:

morgoth wrote:

Tactical Marines are better than guardians or Dire Avengers and they have better options.
Better save, better toughness, better strength, better options, ATSNKF, easier to paint, available in every starter set, etc.

easier to paint and come in a box set, wow what huge advantages on the tabletop marines have.

yeah its such a brilliant comparison - not......

Must not have noticed that (as they have in my Eldar Codex) they also have (which Marines don't)

Dire Avengers are 5pts cheaper
Have LD 9 as standard
Higher Iniative
Pseudo rending weapons which on a 6 ignore both T and Armour.
Battle Focus
Fleet
Counterattack

Oh and of course they can take Serpents rather than a Rhino which the Ws can destroy with laughable ease in one turn.

. PLUS, having a kickass DT is signature Eldar. Expensive, sleek, efficient.

or I love my cheese and can't accept they are too good as everyone else says - or don't care

2. It is insanely durable when it does not fire (145 points of not firing), it is incredibly paper thin when it does (AV12/10)

AV12 is weak - what a load..... compared to what other transport pray tell?

3. It has little to no firepower when it keeps its shield, decent firepower for 145 points when it drops it

More than pretty much any other transport?

4. There is no scoring in my WH40K. I wipe you off the table or you wipe me off, it doesn't take 5 turns to have a clear undisputed rampage if you play offensive and either player gets an edge.

Well thats true if you play Wave Serpent armies and shoot the opponent off the table - and thats the problem with them - again.

I think the main problem with the WS is that instead of bringing it's points down to match its strength, they tried to up it's strength to match it's cost. We didn't want a battle tank, we wanted transport. Alone, a WS is not OP, it's spam ability greatly increases it's strength, however. It's definitely not what makes the eldar codex strong.

DAs are 1 ppm cheaper than Marines (same cost as CSM).
Guardians are 5ppm cheaper, and a lot weaker for it.

(Fairly sure noons pays 18ppm for Tac Marines)

haven't had chance to read through all this yet, but just can't help but laugh at someone calling scatterlasers overpowered.
they have been around for ages, S6 ROF 4, and were hardly EVER used. Only since they twin link other weapons have they become popular. I used to have a converted wave serpent back in 3rd (before there was a model) with twin scatter lasers and shuricannon (standard build now) and people laughed because I didn't take starcannons.
Please get a grip people.

As for the jetseer council, never understood why this was allowed. For the role of the seer council, riding on jetbikes seems very strange thematically. I would love to see the jetbike removed as an option for farseers and warlocks, unless in a special "Saim Hann" detachment.

The wave serpent is a good vehicle, but nothing too crazy compared to other armies options. It can still get glanced to death unless it choose to jink, but then it's offensive capabilities are hindered. Assault troops cannot charge out of it so it's still a delivery system for troops and not an assault vehicle. I would love to see the offensive capability of the shield nerfed a little, but otherwise it's OK and pretty pricey for a transport.

personally, I think small jetbike sqds are the real strength of the eldar list, with amazing speed that can grab an objective easily with the mission cards (and being troops too). That's some powerful stuff right there, even if they don't shoot at all in a game. I'd like to see a rule that forbids taking an objective if turbo boosted, moved flat out or ran. If speed is your goal, securing an objective would not be easy to do.

Bharring wrote:
DAs are 1 ppm cheaper than Marines (same cost as CSM).
Guardians are 5ppm cheaper, and a lot weaker for it.

(Fairly sure noons pays 18ppm for Tac Marines)

Base Squad of Avengers is 65pts, Base Squad of Marines is 70pts

stopcallingmechief wrote:

easier to paint and come in a box set, wow what huge advantages on the tabletop marines have.

not that i would argue this link to my death, heres a link from torrents of fire ranking 6th edition armies through hundreds or thousands of games played. http://www.torrentoffire.com/4789/6th-edition-retrospective-reign-of-the-xenos

see that army at the top? says it all dosnt it

Very interesting, thank you. It's definitely a good resource to discuss "Eldar overpowered?".

Here's what I see when I look at that data:

5 Armies are doing good at the expense of all the others.

Against three of those armies, the Eldar is slightly stronger (51% on average).
The SM have been improving a lot, still at 58% win for the Eldar on average, but clearly decreasing, and probably around 54% at the far right of the graph.
It shows that there are a lot of armies feeling the pain of a non-competitive codex, or maybe even non-competitive players.

In my opinion, the top 5 codex are very well balanced against each other, with the worst offender (Eldar) at an average of 51% within the winners' pool, which is very close to the other 4's average (SM 46% Tau 52% Necron 49% Demons 49.75%).

It shows that the Eldar are mostly OP against the non-competitive armies that fare bad against mostly every other army out there, which is certainly a nice-to-have but completely useless in a tournament, where clearly the top 5 Codex seem to be soon tied, and the other armies better wait for another codex or a game-changing something.

I'd love to see some 7th ed numbers though, there's not much point to discuss how OP stuff was in 6th if it's over now.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

bullyboy wrote:
haven't had chance to read through all this yet, but just can't help but laugh at someone calling scatterlasers overpowered.
they have been around for ages, S6 ROF 4, and were hardly EVER used. Only since they twin link other weapons have they become popular. I used to have a converted wave serpent back in 3rd (before there was a model) with twin scatter lasers and shuricannon (standard build now) and people laughed because I didn't take starcannons.
Please get a grip people.

As for the jetseer council, never understood why this was allowed. For the role of the seer council, riding on jetbikes seems very strange thematically. I would love to see the jetbike removed as an option for farseers and warlocks, unless in a special "Saim Hann" detachment.

Scatter lasers were all the rage for saturation in v5, so I guess they were used, yes

About that jetseer council, it appears to become problematic (haven't tested it, that's what I read) only when including characters from other codex. Which in itself doesn't make much sense anyway, I think that "allied FoC" thing is pretty much a bad idea, an allied character shouldn't be able to join your jetseer council unit, and psykers on motojet looks nice even though it's a bit weird even in a Saim Han context, where you'd more likely have two autarchs.

bullyboy wrote:
haven't had chance to read through all this yet, but just can't help but laugh at someone calling scatterlasers overpowered.
they have been around for ages, S6 ROF 4, and were hardly EVER used. Only since they twin link other weapons have they become popular. I used to have a converted wave serpent back in 3rd (before there was a model) with twin scatter lasers and shuricannon (standard build now) and people laughed because I didn't take starcannons.
Please get a grip people.

Scatterlasers were hardly ever used? That's news to me, Starcannons haven't been in vogue in 8 years since they went from 3 to 2 shots and increased in price. Scatterlasers have been pretty damn popular, from fourth, through fifth and in sixth.

Very interesting, thank you. It's definitely a good resource to discuss "Eldar overpowered?".

Here's what I see when I look at that data:

Perhaps you should read the notes like this?

If we look at our top four performers, we see that Eldar and Tau generally crushed their opponents’ armies, while with Necrons and Daemons, that wasn’t always the case. When thinking about the dominant builds, this makes sense. Part of Eldar and Tau success was based on doing crippling damage to the opponent in a short amount of time with long range
shooting, preventing them from having the strength to claim objectives later on

7th Ed has made Wave Serpents even more OP than before as not only are they super scoring but they also get to jink even on the first turn and its a better save.

I realise this thread was necroed recently but still read 5 pages and saw all about the wave serpent and seer council being OP (agreed), along with mention of wraitknights/lords and warwalkers. But not once did I see warp spiders mentioned! I know a lot of people don't take them since you can only get a unit of 9 as you MUST buy an exarch with each 5 IRL, however my mate runs 30, and they are INSANE!

Scatter lasers have always been the 'biz', as they were almost exclusively taken on War Walkers to put out a great amount of guided str 6 shots.

As for Eldar being Over Powered, i say meh. I say Wave Serpents are over powered, ridiculously so, that i refuse to play pick up games against anyone with more then 3. This sounds extreme, but can you tell me of an effective way to kill a Wave Serpent as Dark Eldar? Haywire Wyches are FAR to slow, Dark Lances are at their nadir of efficiency Vs Av 12 with a 3+ (!!!!) Jink Save as well as possibly having pens to glances on a 2+. Dark Eldar have quite literally nothing that can handle a Wave Serpent, yet a single Wave Serpent *will* wreck *anything* short of a Talos in a single round of shooting. We have cover saves, you can ignore them. We minus your range? Serpent Shields are range 60!

Please, in all your infinite wisdom, tell me how to counter a Wave Serpent as Dark Eldar. For the life of me i simply can't tell!

That's the thing as well. People say that 'only three' isn't spamming... yes it is! It is by all rights and purposes a battle tank with a transport capacity in a DT slot rather than HS. It may not have been intended to be this way but that is how it plays!

If I took 'only' 3 vindicators then I would be thought of as 'spamming' vindis - and they aren't even anywhere near as good a unit!

Compared to many armies, the Eldar are OP. That's GW's fault for not knowing how to make a good game. Putting a BA army against an Eldar army is at best, cruel.

bullyboy wrote:
haven't had chance to read through all this yet, but just can't help but laugh at someone calling scatterlasers overpowered.
they have been around for ages, S6 ROF 4, and were hardly EVER used. Only since they twin link other weapons have they become popular. I used to have a converted wave serpent back in 3rd (before there was a model) with twin scatter lasers and shuricannon (standard build now) and people laughed because I didn't take starcannons.
Please get a grip people.

So, essentially what you're saying is nobody used them (which is debatable) until they got changed to do something really good as well as high ROF and decent strength?

Who'd have thought?!!

The amount of whine in this thread is unbelievable.

Not only has someone brought statistics, but I even gave you a proper summary.

So now, the only ones who are still complaining are either not playing one of the 5 good codexes (SM,Tau,Eldar,Necron,Demons) or are just bad at it.

And Sorry mr. Dark Eldar, but statistically, the other 4 good codex are much stronger than Eldar against you, so you should accept that you've got one of the worst codex and live with it. Or change armies.

"Eldar are not OP because you (as a DE player) need to accept you have one of the worst codex" is what im hearing there.
Why should we have to play one of the good codecies all the time? I own a cron army but I also like playing BA and CSM. So I have no right to claim Eldar are OP because I also own these armies. I don't see the logic there.

I disagree, i can handle the other armies just fine. Tau are ineffective without Markerlights, A Riptide is as hard to kill as 5 Terminators to me, Quantum Shield matters not a squat to lances, Wraiths and Bikers die to massed splinter like anything else, Daemons rely on MC while Dark Eldar are rocking Poison, A Beast Pack dominates Tau, Necrons and Space Marines, Vect helps handle Psyker armies . The list goes on, only a fool or someone under a rock would say Dark Eldar are one of the worst codexes, it wasn't long ago when the Beast Pack was dominating the tournement Scene and still continue to do so with a little Eldar Allied Help.

But every unit should have a counter, so please, if you know enough about the Dark Eldar army to blatantly call it one of the worst codexes, then suggest to me how to kill Wave Serpents? Because i am honestly stumped.

morgoth wrote:
The amount of whine in this thread is unbelievable.

Not only has someone brought statistics, but I even gave you a proper summary.

So now, the only ones who are still complaining are either not playing one of the 5 good codexes (SM,Tau,Eldar,Necron,Demons) or are just bad at it.

And Sorry mr. Dark Eldar, but statistically, the other 4 good codex are much stronger than Eldar against you, so you should accept that you've got one of the worst codex and live with it. Or change armies.

I have Eldar army - I choose not to use the cheese units to smash my opponetns and claim I am great player for it

 ALEXisAWESOME wrote:
I disagree, i can handle the other armies just fine. Tau are ineffective without Markerlights, A Riptide is as hard to kill as 5 Terminators to me, Quantum Shield matters not a squat to lances, Wraiths and Bikers die to massed splinter like anything else, Daemons rely on MC while Dark Eldar are rocking Poison, A Beast Pack dominates Tau, Necrons and Space Marines, Vect helps handle Psyker armies . The list goes on, only a fool or someone under a rock would say Dark Eldar are one of the worst codexes, it wasn't long ago when the Beast Pack was dominating the tournement Scene and still continue to do so with a little Eldar Allied Help.

But every unit should have a counter, so please, if you know enough about the Dark Eldar army to blatantly call it one of the worst codexes, then suggest to me how to kill Wave Serpents? Because i am honestly stumped.

Or BA for that matter... or CSM...
Obliterators? Nah - not with a 3+ cover, 60" range high rof good st gun, or 2+ ignore pens.
Assault marines with melta and mbs? Nope - can't catch it.
DE have it worse though. At least BA have attack bikes.

Overpowered? I don't know...a lot of codices are currently very strong.


My problem with the new Eldar dex is that have all of their advantages (i.e., speed) without any of the classic disadvantages (fragility).

They have some of the toughest troops in the game (Wraithguard), pretty much the toughest MC in the game (Wraithknight, which is also incredibly fast...), and the toughest Dedicated Transport in the game (Wave Serpents).


Eldar are supposed to be incredibly fragile. That's always been their thing: high damage output, high speed, low survivability. WK and new Wave Serpent rules (especially given the way Jink works in 7th) totally violate this.

 azreal13 wrote:

bullyboy wrote:
haven't had chance to read through all this yet, but just can't help but laugh at someone calling scatterlasers overpowered.
they have been around for ages, S6 ROF 4, and were hardly EVER used. Only since they twin link other weapons have they become popular. I used to have a converted wave serpent back in 3rd (before there was a model) with twin scatter lasers and shuricannon (standard build now) and people laughed because I didn't take starcannons.
Please get a grip people.

So, essentially what you're saying is nobody used them (which is debatable) until they got changed to do something really good as well as high ROF and decent strength?

Who'd have thought?!!

not really, what I'm saying is they were basically the same before yet were not that popular (compared to starcannons, even when ROF 2). The ROF was D6 I think so 50% of the time you had the same or more shots than current. The lack of AP is what stopped many folks from taking scatters, especially with so much power armour around. The addition of the twin linked is hardly an issue since we're talking mostly wave serpents anyway. Sure, on war walkers they're pretty decent, but that was the best load out before...nothing has changed.

The invention of hull points in 6th changed it. Dramatically.

How did people manage to defeat IG Chimera spam?
Not trying to say that Chimera=WS but I remember people taking way more of them than WSs today. Yet it wasn't an autowin list. How come Wave Serpents are indestructible and Chimeras were managable?
I'd like to add that most Eldar players (if not all) shoot their shields ASAP instead of keeping them, so apart from the first turn, in case Eldar's opponent got first turn, they actually don't matter. And it's not like IG players don't use terrain to get a cover save.

When it comes to the WK I agree that there are sometimes games that I know that my opponent most likely won't kill him, but in a more compepetive games there is always a tool to deafeat him. Either by killing or tarpitting. Grav-guns can kill him, DE can kill him with poison, Tau can kill him with any mass shooting, Eldar obviously can kill him, Orks can tarpit him, GK can instagibb him, Daemons can kill him (but it might depend on the list), Necron can kill him in meele, Tyranids can kill him with some poisonous bugs, haven't faced IG in quite a long time do i don't know about them, Belakor can kill him in meele or via Psychic Shriek. It's mostly the rest of the armies (mostly older armies) that have quite a big problem when it comes to dealing with WK.

macexor wrote:
How did people manage to defeat IG Chimera spam?
Not trying to say that Chimera=WS but I remember people taking way more of them than WSs today. Yet it wasn't an autowin list. How come Wave Serpents are indestructible and Chimeras were managable?
I'd like to add that most Eldar players (if not all) shoot their shields ASAP instead of keeping them, so apart from the first turn, in case Eldar's opponent got first turn, they actually don't matter. And it's not like IG players don't use terrain to get a cover save.

...

Well 12/10/10 tank vs 12/12/10 fast skimmer tank is big, especially since it is fairly easy to hit the chimera's side armour. The Chimera's lack of speed and firepower (w/o embarked troops) make it inferior.

macexor wrote:
How did people manage to defeat IG Chimera spam?
Not trying to say that Chimera=WS but I remember people taking way more of them than WSs today. Yet it wasn't an autowin list. How come Wave Serpents are indestructible and Chimeras were managable?

Other transports (primarily Razorbacks) weren't made of tissue paper in 5th.

 erick99 wrote:

macexor wrote:
How did people manage to defeat IG Chimera spam?
Not trying to say that Chimera=WS but I remember people taking way more of them than WSs today. Yet it wasn't an autowin list. How come Wave Serpents are indestructible and Chimeras were managable?
I'd like to add that most Eldar players (if not all) shoot their shields ASAP instead of keeping them, so apart from the first turn, in case Eldar's opponent got first turn, they actually don't matter. And it's not like IG players don't use terrain to get a cover save.

...

Well 12/10/10 tank vs 12/12/10 fast skimmer tank is big, especially since it is fairly easy to hit the chimera's side armour. The Chimera's lack of speed and firepower (w/o embarked troops) make it inferior.

To add to that, the chimera is basically only taken to ferry veterans or IS somewhere. It is easily killed, which by extension leaves the vulnerable guardsmen to foot slog and die in route to their target. It really had no business getting a price increase.

The WS has Jink at a 3+ (holo-field), which makes popping the shield a freebie. It means first turn use the shield and twin-link with scatter laser. d6+1 strength 7 hits that ignore cover is enough to kill most regular transports with glances never mind that it can pen. Next turn jink if you get shot and use the turn to turbo boost your troops in. Rinse and repeat.

The jink change is only really a nerf to bikes. It is a huge buff to wave serpents and ghost arks. Especially WS because since they are twin-linking with the scatter laser they can usually get around it. People say ignore cover is common, but it is not as much as you think. Especially not on anti-tank weapons. The three big ones right now are Tau, Guard and Eldar.
Guard needs an order to do it. Tau needs marker lights. Eldar have a build in to their WS. Hence the problem. It is a vehicle that does everything and is super durable and can be spammed like hell.

Eldar themselves are not really OP, just top tier especially now that the bike star is nerfed. Its just really the wave serpent that is broken. It is too the point not one I know uses any of the other vehicles (falcons, prisms, night spinner), because why bother when the WS is basically more powerful than nearly every tank in the game. Everyone takes the same thing, WS with holo fields and scatter laser. And every game they last forever. Much longer than most vehicles at their point level.

The codex has too much re-roll to hit, and too good defensive options on their vehicles, but it also lacks good AA options and some kind of assault vehicle.

A tiny bit OP? Yes. Unbeatable? Not really, no.

I play Tyranids. Everyone else is OP.

I have a mech Eldar army and hold my own fairly well in my local, rather competitive meta / arms race.

Lately I'm being told that I need to drop my 2 fire prisms and get 2 Wraith Knights as well as getting a Jet-Council organized to make the most of the Eldar's strengths.

Is this going over the top or just what one needs to do when you consistently face Tau w/ 2-3 Riptides, Necrons, Nurgle w/ Helldrakes, Marines with Imperial Knights and 3-6 chapter masters with orbital strikes. and soon I am sure be facing various Daemon factories.

Honestly it makes me enjoy the games of Kill Team we've played with my marines a lot more.

 Zakiriel wrote:
I have a mech Eldar army and hold my own fairly well in my local, rather competitive meta / arms race.

Lately I'm being told that I need to drop my 2 fire prisms and get 2 Wraith Knights as well as getting a Jet-Council organized to make the most of the Eldar's strengths.

Is this going over the top or just what one needs to do when you consistently face Tau w/ 2-3 Riptides, Necrons, Nurgle w/ Helldrakes, Marines with Imperial Knights and 3-6 chapter masters with orbital strikes. and soon I am sure be facing various Daemon factories.

Honestly it makes me enjoy the games of Kill Team we've played with my marines a lot more.

I think you can get advice for your list in other parts of the forum, but in general a fully competitive list is required to compete with ... a fully competitive list. Not sure whether the WK and jetCouncil are necessary though.

 Happyjew wrote:
I play Tyranids. Everyone else is OP.

Except for Necrons apparently...

http://i294.photobucket.com/albums/mm105/flatterkatz/forumimgs/irony.jpg

Their arrogance is matched only by their firepower!

Its not arrogance to think yourself better when you clearly are?

... Are we talking Necrons, Eldar, or Dakkaians?

(Your meta doesn't sound fun)

 lobbywatson wrote:
In their defense the most advanced oldest race in the galaxy should be OP.

Excuse you, kind sir, Necrons. Necrons are older, and have more advanced technology. But, nothing is ever really based on fluff, now is it?

krodarklorr wrote:

 lobbywatson wrote:
In their defense the most advanced oldest race in the galaxy should be OP.

Excuse you, kind sir, Necrons. Necrons are older, and have more advanced technology. But, nothing is ever really based on fluff, now is it?

Great news tbh, the fluff doesn't make sense, so the game would be very hard to understand, let alone play.

I can't believe the number of ancient / eldar / elder / asgaard and other super ancient super awesome races that are so awesome they disappear or get to the brink of extinction.

When you think about it, our very pitiful race has never been close to extinction, so why should smarter races face that problem ??? Is it the ancients' curse ? WTF !!!!! anyway uhm.. off-topic.

 erick99 wrote:

macexor wrote:
How did people manage to defeat IG Chimera spam?
Not trying to say that Chimera=WS but I remember people taking way more of them than WSs today. Yet it wasn't an autowin list. How come Wave Serpents are indestructible and Chimeras were managable?
I'd like to add that most Eldar players (if not all) shoot their shields ASAP instead of keeping them, so apart from the first turn, in case Eldar's opponent got first turn, they actually don't matter. And it's not like IG players don't use terrain to get a cover save.

...

Well 12/10/10 tank vs 12/12/10 fast skimmer tank is big, especially since it is fairly easy to hit the chimera's side armour. The Chimera's lack of speed and firepower (w/o embarked troops) make it inferior.

You can have two Chimera's for every WS.

 Daba wrote:

 erick99 wrote:

macexor wrote:
How did people manage to defeat IG Chimera spam?
Not trying to say that Chimera=WS but I remember people taking way more of them than WSs today. Yet it wasn't an autowin list. How come Wave Serpents are indestructible and Chimeras were managable?
I'd like to add that most Eldar players (if not all) shoot their shields ASAP instead of keeping them, so apart from the first turn, in case Eldar's opponent got first turn, they actually don't matter. And it's not like IG players don't use terrain to get a cover save.

...

Well 12/10/10 tank vs 12/12/10 fast skimmer tank is big, especially since it is fairly easy to hit the chimera's side armour. The Chimera's lack of speed and firepower (w/o embarked troops) make it inferior.

You can have two Chimera's for every WS.

And those WS would murder the f**k out of these Chimeras in ~3 turns of shooting...

macexor wrote:
How did people manage to defeat IG Chimera spam?
Not trying to say that Chimera=WS but I remember people taking way more of them than WSs today. Yet it wasn't an autowin list. How come Wave Serpents are indestructible and Chimeras were managable?

The IG chimera fleet lists of yesteryear largely worked by simple mass. Their strength was that you could just field a lot of them and overload enemy AT capability. They weren't super mobile, the chimeras themselves didn't put out all that impressive firepower, and aside from smoke launchers didn't really have anything to enhance survivability.

I'd like to add that most Eldar players (if not all) shoot their shields ASAP instead of keeping them, so apart from the first turn, in case Eldar's opponent got first turn, they actually don't matter. And it's not like IG players don't use terrain to get a cover save.

This requires sitting behind terrain and (largely) not moving, whereas a Wave Serpent can sit in the open and sport a 3+ cover save after moving halfway across the board. And the Wave Serpent can choose not to shoot and keep those shields if it really needs to secure an objective.

 Happyjew wrote:
I play Tyranids. Everyone else is OP.

Blood angels here. Have fun insta killing our 4 wound chapter master that somehow doesn't have eternal warrior despite being 1500+ years old before he strikes at initiative 1 with a power axe.

Or yknow, you could just outnumber us badly due to overpricedness.

Not OP, just strong.

The entire codex (with a few exceptions) is packed with competitive choices.

Perhaps the Serpent is the only overpowered unit in the codex. The rest of it are just strong choices that all happen to come from the same book. Many units would easily be 'best in slot' in almost any other codex. Most FOC sections are half full with what people call competitive choices. You can almost accidentally write a strong list by picking random stuff. I actually have to TRY to write soft lists to play friendly games.

HQ - Farseers - Cheap psychic support, best value psyker/hq in the game. With the change to the buffmander joining MC's, he's now the most useful buffing model in the game. Okay, maybe Tiggy beats him out. Warlocks are 35 point psykers with a bunch of cool powers. Cheap source of warp charges.

Elites - Fire Dragons - A whole squad of Melta's for 22 points each. Other armies would love these, but they barely get gametime in a tournament list.
Wraithguard - S10 shooting, Ap2 flamers that can cause instant death, all on a T6 3+ fearless model. That has the option to be troops. And move and shoot.

Troops - Jetbikes. Hands down best troop choice in the game. Jink nerf hurt them a bit, but scoring changes didn't. Avengers and Guardians deserve mention, faux-rending on troops choices is incredibly useful. Troops choice is also where the Serpents come in. The best transports in the game, are now scoring models with a 18' flat out, harder to explode, 3+ jink, everything twin-linked and S7 ignoring cover.

Fast Attack - Warp Spiders. Faux-rending S7, 2d6+6+d6+2d6 movement per turn, and still shooting. Thats an average of 23.5 inches. Nothing that isn't a flyer moves that fast and shoots while doing it. Swooping Hawks get all the cool rules. No scatter deepstrike, skyleap, battlefocus, blind, ignore cover, kill stuff in the movement phase, haywire, and fleet. Precision deep strike onto an objective? yup. Shred any infantry when they get there, too. Shining Spears perhaps deserve a mention too. 7th edition has made them a decent choice.

Heavy Support - T8 MC's, Str10 shooting from Knights, and D-cannons. Jink ignoring missiles, spammable S6 shooting, and rending barrage. You really can't go wrong here.


Basically, if you play Eldar you can take X points of things that are not; Yriel, some pheonix lords, Banshees, Harliequins, Rangers, Vypers, Falcons, Fire Prisms, and have a competitive army. Not an overpowered one.

Belly wrote:
Not OP, just strong.

The entire codex (with a few exceptions) is packed with competitive choices.

Perhaps the Serpent is the only overpowered unit in the codex. The rest of it are just strong choices that all happen to come from the same book. Many units would easily be 'best in slot' in almost any other codex. Most FOC sections are half full with what people call competitive choices. You can almost accidentally write a strong list by picking random stuff. I actually have to TRY to write soft lists to play friendly games.

HQ - Farseers - Cheap psychic support, best value psyker/hq in the game. With the change to the buffmander joining MC's, he's now the most useful buffing model in the game. Okay, maybe Tiggy beats him out. Warlocks are 35 point psykers with a bunch of cool powers. Cheap source of warp charges.

Elites - Fire Dragons - A whole squad of Melta's for 22 points each. Other armies would love these, but they barely get gametime in a tournament list.
Wraithguard - S10 shooting, Ap2 flamers that can cause instant death, all on a T6 3+ fearless model. That has the option to be troops. And move and shoot.

Troops - Jetbikes. Hands down best troop choice in the game. Jink nerf hurt them a bit, but scoring changes didn't. Avengers and Guardians deserve mention, faux-rending on troops choices is incredibly useful. Troops choice is also where the Serpents come in. The best transports in the game, are now scoring models with a 18' flat out, harder to explode, 3+ jink, everything twin-linked and S7 ignoring cover.

Fast Attack - Warp Spiders. Faux-rending S7, 2d6+6+d6+2d6 movement per turn, and still shooting. Thats an average of 23.5 inches. Nothing that isn't a flyer moves that fast and shoots while doing it. Swooping Hawks get all the cool rules. No scatter deepstrike, skyleap, battlefocus, blind, ignore cover, kill stuff in the movement phase, haywire, and fleet. Precision deep strike onto an objective? yup. Shred any infantry when they get there, too. Shining Spears perhaps deserve a mention too. 7th edition has made them a decent choice.

Heavy Support - T8 MC's, Str10 shooting from Knights, and D-cannons. Jink ignoring missiles, spammable S6 shooting, and rending barrage. You really can't go wrong here.


Basically, if you play Eldar you can take X points of things that are not; Yriel, some pheonix lords, Banshees, Harliequins, Rangers, Vypers, Falcons, Fire Prisms, and have a competitive army. Not an overpowered one.

I mean, in all honesty, being able to play just about anything in your codex and have it be not just good, but competitive, regardless of all the cheese, is kind of OP. You even admit that almost every other codex out there would have their stuff replaced by something in this codex just because it would become "best in slot". That sounds rather OP to me. Or at LEAST unnecessarily powerful.

What is irritating is that the Serpent Shield is the best of all worlds- It gives a great save vs penetrating hits, has massive range, ignores cover, good strength, and apparently is a weapon for the advantages (twin linking for target lock) but not the drawbacks (cannot be affected by weapon destroyed)

krodarklorr wrote:


I mean, in all honesty, being able to play just about anything in your codex and have it be not just good, but competitive, regardless of all the cheese, is kind of OP. You even admit that almost every other codex out there would have their stuff replaced by something in this codex just because it would become "best in slot". That sounds rather OP to me. Or at LEAST unnecessarily powerful.

No. The Eldar Codex is what every codex should aspire to be like.

Maybe some of the excesses need to be curbed (MINOR downpowering of the Serpent Shield, some kind of limitation on Jetbike Warlocks?) and one or two units very slightly improved (Banshes, non-serpent tanks), but the overall quality of almost every unit being one you want to take and trading off another is exactly what you want in a codex.

 Daba wrote:

krodarklorr wrote:


I mean, in all honesty, being able to play just about anything in your codex and have it be not just good, but competitive, regardless of all the cheese, is kind of OP. You even admit that almost every other codex out there would have their stuff replaced by something in this codex just because it would become "best in slot". That sounds rather OP to me. Or at LEAST unnecessarily powerful.

No. The Eldar Codex is what every codex should aspire to be like.

Maybe some of the excesses need to be curbed (MINOR downpowering of the Serpent Shield, some kind of limitation on Jetbike Warlocks?) and one or two units very slightly improved (Banshes, non-serpent tanks), but the overall quality of almost every unit being one you want to take and trading off another is exactly what you want in a codex.

While I understand what you are saying, and even agree with it, that still doesn't change the fact that the Eldar Codex is so far ahead of the curve versus the other armies, it has to be considered OP. Only when all other armies (or at least most of them) are handled in the same manner can you really say the Eldar are NOT a bit OP.

krodarklorr wrote:

I mean, in all honesty, being able to play just about anything in your codex and have it be not just good, but competitive, regardless of all the cheese, is kind of OP. You even admit that almost every other codex out there would have their stuff replaced by something in this codex just because it would become "best in slot". That sounds rather OP to me. Or at LEAST unnecessarily powerful.

To be honest, this should be the definition of a GOOD codex - unfortunately because so few codices live up to this ideal, Eldar are overpowered compared to almost everything else!

It would be really nice if the future codexes became more focused on internal balance, making actually difficult and interesting to pick between units...instead of the usual, "well, this is clearly the best heavy...oh, and this is obviously the only decent fast attack"...

 Fos Kenos wrote:
It would be really nice if the future codexes became more focused on internal balance, making actually difficult and interesting to pick between units...instead of the usual, "well, this is clearly the best heavy...oh, and this is obviously the only decent fast attack"...

Screw balance! The game is so unbalanced, it might as well just be one unbalanced thing after the next at this point, and then somewhere it find equilibrium. Chaos wants its Thousand Sons Terminators and Khorne Berzerkers with 4 attacks standard while dual-wielding chain axes, pistols or perhaps a two handed chain sword!

I don't want balanced. I want what my army is supposed to have and the levels they are supposed to be. For example, Defy should probably be as strong as a Wraithknight. He's not, but if we were being real, he'd be ripping vehicles apart and firing that battlecannon point blank with a grin on his face and a Mark on his hide.

I think this idea of "balancing" a game that is built on war (which is never balanced) is the reason we have such an unbalanced game in the first place. Especially with passionate writers giving their all to their favorite groups (like Eldar and Space Wolves). What do they call them? Fandex? Well lets make them ALL fandexs so no one is left out.

At the risk of beating a dead horse, Riptide + Buffmander? Fine if I get my 360* Heldrake back + some other much needed fixings through out the codex. Would this give us bigger Codex's more models and a lot more to think about? ABSOLUTELY. Why is that a bad thing though, except that GW couldn't keep up with the demand at that point? Which I would still think would be a good thing. Demand goes up, causes production to go up, causes demand to be pleased. This just sounds like good business to me. <<

I'm sure there are x, y, and z factors I haven't thought about yet (like someones Fandex being the ultimate point for point counter to something/everything else) but again, it comes back to the players to make those games work and where tournament is concerned, well dun care. Tournaments are structured, ruled and what not themselves and can reign in these Fandex's if TO's wanted too, which is kinda what they do anyways.

Food for thought, I guess. Going way far the other way.

 MajorWesJanson wrote:
What is irritating is that the Serpent Shield is the best of all worlds- It gives a great save vs penetrating hits, has massive range, ignores cover, good strength, and apparently is a weapon for the advantages (twin linking for target lock) but not the drawbacks (cannot be affected by weapon destroyed)

However, Serpents are still very vulnerable in cc.

Fast moving armies like Daemons or Bikers can this to their advantage.

 ClassicCarraway wrote:

While I understand what you are saying, and even agree with it, that still doesn't change the fact that the Eldar Codex is so far ahead of the curve versus the other armies, it has to be considered OP. Only when all other armies (or at least most of them) are handled in the same manner can you really say the Eldar are NOT a bit OP.

Statistically, it is on par with the rest of the 5 top codexes, and more decisive against weaker codexes because of the glass cannon nature of the army lists. That's it. There's no statistically visible OP-ness, no reason to whine against Eldar more than you'd whine against Tau or Sm or Necron or Demons, no reason other than when an Eldar kills you, he does it right.

So if you'd rather have bland battles with 34% losses on one side and 47% on the other side, go ahead, have *all* glass cannon armies removed, make all those players sad, and you still won't have any more balance, because you're barking at the wrong tree.

I will of course revise my position if someone has other numbers than those I've already analyzed, but so far, there isn't a shadow of doubt with regards to "Eldar overpowered?".

Moreover, this idea that every unit in the Eldar codex is good is rubbish. Yes, many of those units *can* be used and *may* be useful in a non-competitive game, but you will never win a tournament with those units.

That is not to say that there is not a third tier, with things like the banshee, composed of units you'd rather never take in anything else than a 100% fluff game, which were overly abundant in the previous Eldar codex, and are apparently very present in other codexes at this point.

But that's a problem of bad internal balance, and it's applicable to every race.

Lastly, if your army is not one of the top 5, you've been screwed and you statistically don't stand a chance in a competitive match. So stop whining, get another army or forget competitive until your next dex, thank you.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Hedgehog wrote:

krodarklorr wrote:

I mean, in all honesty, being able to play just about anything in your codex and have it be not just good, but competitive, regardless of all the cheese, is kind of OP. You even admit that almost every other codex out there would have their stuff replaced by something in this codex just because it would become "best in slot". That sounds rather OP to me. Or at LEAST unnecessarily powerful.

To be honest, this should be the definition of a GOOD codex - unfortunately because so few codices live up to this ideal, Eldar are overpowered compared to almost everything else!

They are not. Statistics of the top 5 pool show SM 46% and climbing, Necron 49%, Demons 49.75%, Eldar 51%, Tau 52% .


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 TheRedWingArmada wrote:

At the risk of beating a dead horse, Riptide + Buffmander? Fine if I get my 360* Heldrake back + some other much needed fixings through out the codex. Would this give us bigger Codex's more models and a lot more to think about? ABSOLUTELY. Why is that a bad thing though, except that GW couldn't keep up with the demand at that point? Which I would still think would be a good thing. Demand goes up, causes production to go up, causes demand to be pleased. This just sounds like good business to me. <<

I'm sure there are x, y, and z factors I haven't thought about yet (like someones Fandex being the ultimate point for point counter to something/everything else) but again, it comes back to the players to make those games work and where tournament is concerned, well dun care. Tournaments are structured, ruled and what not themselves and can reign in these Fandex's if TO's wanted too, which is kinda what they do anyways.

Food for thought, I guess. Going way far the other way.

1. The dead horse is dead, you can no longer Riptide + Buffmander.
2. The old Heldrake is gone, good thing too.
3. Fandex is not a reality, otherwise you'd see it in the statistics.

You have just blown your own argument away.

If there are Codexes that can not fight Eldar - which there are - then they are OP (which they are) QED.

Perhaps if people like you stopped defending cheese units all the time we might be able to get some agreement on fixing the problem units.

Those codices will struggle against the others in the top 5 too, even against vanilla Marines - so are Vanilla Marines OP QED? So all 5 (which are roughly equal with each other) need to be nerfed and have a load of useless unit entries and must takes, instead of the bottom 5 being improved and designed with the internal balance of the Eldar codex?

The problem units are in other army lists not in the top 5, and the more swingy units in the other top 5 armies.

The Wave Serpent isn't even taken that much in the most competitive list. Seer council dominates them - that is the unit you should be looking at if any in the Eldar Codex.

The thing about the Eldar Codex is that their 'top' units are nowhere nearly as slanted as the others in the top 5, or even below.

The Eldar codex is the nearest to perfect; everyone else is the problem (albeit each with their own, different problems).

 Daba wrote:
Those codices will struggle against the others in the top 5 too, even against vanilla Marines - so are Vanilla Marines OP QED? So all 5 (which are roughly equal with each other) need to be nerfed and have a load of useless unit entries and must takes, instead of the bottom 5 being improved and designed with the internal balance of the Eldar codex?

The problem units are in other army lists not in the top 5, and the more swingy units in the other top 5 armies.

The Wave Serpent isn't even taken that much in the most competitive list. Seer council dominates them - that is the unit you should be looking at if any in the Eldar Codex.

The thing about the Eldar Codex is that their 'top' units are nowhere nearly as slanted as the others in the top 5, or even below.

The Eldar codex is the nearest to perfect; everyone else is the problem (albeit each with their own, different problems).

Thank you.

Don't mind Morden though, he's already resisted the call of reason quite a few times.

morgoth wrote:

 Daba wrote:
Those codices will struggle against the others in the top 5 too, even against vanilla Marines - so are Vanilla Marines OP QED? So all 5 (which are roughly equal with each other) need to be nerfed and have a load of useless unit entries and must takes, instead of the bottom 5 being improved and designed with the internal balance of the Eldar codex?

The problem units are in other army lists not in the top 5, and the more swingy units in the other top 5 armies.

The Wave Serpent isn't even taken that much in the most competitive list. Seer council dominates them - that is the unit you should be looking at if any in the Eldar Codex.

The thing about the Eldar Codex is that their 'top' units are nowhere nearly as slanted as the others in the top 5, or even below.

The Eldar codex is the nearest to perfect; everyone else is the problem (albeit each with their own, different problems).

Thank you.

Don't mind Morden though, he's already resisted the call of reason quite a few times.

Yeah the majority of people who understand and agree that the Wave Serpent is massively OP and worse now in 7th Ed are obviously playing a different game.................

Again the only point of comparison is that OP unit A is not as broken as OP unit B - not that they are both broken or work together......sheesh

I think looking solely at tournament results skew the perception of a given army's power level. Tournament winning lists generally adhere to the select few efficient power builds for each army, so if one army has a single build that is grossly OP, it might have more success than a army that has a number of power builds that are just highly OP. To me, it becomes far more clear from a more casual perspective.

To beat a casual Eldar list, many armies often have to resort to tournament style builds to have a real chance. Does a casual Chaos Marine list really stand a chance against an army that can spam psuedo-rending shooting with its basic troops, as well as loads of other shooting AP2 without even trying? What about a single unit of wraithguard with d-scythes running around in a WS? The carnage that single unit can cause to a power-armour army all by itself is incredible, and can be very difficult to counter for these armies. A single wraithknight can swing a casual game so far out of whack, that its over by turn 3. My group has one Eldar player in the mix, and he doesn't even try to put out a tournament worthy list, and we all struggle to even keep in the running (Marines, Chaos Marines, Necrons, Space Wolves, and Chaos Daemons make up the other armies in our group).

The Eldar codex itself is masterfully done when it comes to internal balance and synergy. Just about EVERYTHING has a use and has an appropriate points cost (for the most part anyway), even the less popular units such as Swooping Hawks and Fire Prisms. The only one that is less than great are Banshees. I put them in the same boat as Khorne Bloodletters, useful in certain situations, really good as a backline counter-attack unit, but overall, there are better ways to spend the points. The only other codex that comes close when it comes to internal balance and synergy is Chaos Daemons, and even that book has its share of clunkers.

 ClassicCarraway wrote:
I think looking solely at tournament results skew the perception of a given army's power level. Tournament winning lists generally adhere to the select few efficient power builds for each army, so if one army has a single build that is grossly OP, it might have more success than a army that has a number of power builds that are just highly OP. To me, it becomes far more clear from a more casual perspective.

To beat a casual Eldar list, many armies often have to resort to tournament style builds to have a real chance. Does a casual Chaos Marine list really stand a chance against an army that can spam psuedo-rending shooting with its basic troops, as well as loads of other shooting AP2 without even trying? What about a single unit of wraithguard with d-scythes running around in a WS? The carnage that single unit can cause to a power-armour army all by itself is incredible, and can be very difficult to counter for these armies. A single wraithknight can swing a casual game so far out of whack, that its over by turn 3. My group has one Eldar player in the mix, and he doesn't even try to put out a tournament worthy list, and we all struggle to even keep in the running (Marines, Chaos Marines, Necrons, Space Wolves, and Chaos Daemons make up the other armies in our group).

The Eldar codex itself is masterfully done when it comes to internal balance and synergy. Just about EVERYTHING has a use and has an appropriate points cost (for the most part anyway), even the less popular units such as Swooping Hawks and Fire Prisms. The only one that is less than great are Banshees. I put them in the same boat as Khorne Bloodletters, useful in certain situations, really good as a backline counter-attack unit, but overall, there are better ways to spend the points. The only other codex that comes close when it comes to internal balance and synergy is Chaos Daemons, and even that book has its share of clunkers.

If you have other statistics, I'd love to see them. Anecdotes don't really mean much in the face of statistics.

You mean synergy of the Seerstar with the DE codex ?

Because I can't quite see any synergy in the Eldar codex... I may have it all wrong, but currently the only synergy that seems to be visible is: "overload their high STR/low AP weapons", which is not a synergy.

A single wraithknight is not a problem for an army that has decent anti tank capabilities, but from reading you, it appears noone in your group has that.

While the struggling for Chaos Marines and Space Wolves is expected, the other three should have no problem at all. Maybe your vision of a casual list is more problematic to some armies than others.

There are lies, damned lies and Statistics which can be twisted as is the case here to tell the story you want.

 Mr Morden wrote:
There are lies, damned lies and Statistics which can be twisted as is the case here to tell the story you want.

98% of statistics are made up on the spot .

I hosted a three-way player game between myself, Ryan and Alistar yesterday. It was a very relaxed affair and we had a curry at lunchtime. I decided to play my Eldar for a change and took a couple of Wave Serpents and a Falcon, along with several Guardian squads to theme it as a Black Guardian Ulthwe army, supported by a couple of small Aspect Warrior squads and a pair of War Walkers. Against this was a mechanised Guard army that was very aggressive and a Blood Angels army with a mixture of different units. The game confirmed everything anyone has ever said about Wave Serpents being overpowered and being too good. The ability to Jink, combined with the Serpent Shield makes them nearly impossible to kill apart from simply wrecking them by reducing them to zero hull points.

form our clubs forum today - this is what everyone apart from the most die hard WS defenders say...............

Hulling out vehicles, in 7th, should become familiar to most reasonable players. This familiarity will help them against the (OP) Serpent, at least. Too many players seem to think that if it can't be exploded easily, it can't be killed.

Ignores cover + STR 7 or greater = dead serpents.

I have been running 3 or 4 wave serpents in my tournament lists for a long time now and it seems like now that it's harder to blow them up, that people forget to use ignores cover.

3 Hull point isn't that many, as we all know, and it is very common for a WS to have fired off it's shield, so if you use ignores cover, you should be able to hull point them dead fairly quickly. The rest is tactics.

 Gangrel767 wrote:
Ignores cover + STR 7 or greater = dead serpents.

I have been running 3 or 4 wave serpents in my tournament lists for a long time now and it seems like now that it's harder to blow them up, that people forget to use ignores cover.

3 Hull point isn't that many, as we all know, and it is very common for a WS to have fired off it's shield, so if you use ignores cover, you should be able to hull point them dead fairly quickly. The rest is tactics.

So the best weapon aginst a Cheese Serpent is another one? What do you use when not spamming Wave Serpents?

Tactics - hmm - always easier when you have better weapons and equipment............... why is that people keep saying the the Av 12 3HP WS is an easy kill - compared to what - a Land Raider in cover? Which people pay a premium for

 Gangrel767 wrote:
Ignores cover + STR 7 or greater = dead serpents.

I have been running 3 or 4 wave serpents in my tournament lists for a long time now and it seems like now that it's harder to blow them up, that people forget to use ignores cover.

3 Hull point isn't that many, as we all know, and it is very common for a WS to have fired off it's shield, so if you use ignores cover, you should be able to hull point them dead fairly quickly. The rest is tactics.

Right... Please refresh my memory, which armies have high strength ignores cover shooting again?

 Gangrel767 wrote:
Ignores cover + STR 7 or greater = dead serpents.

I have been running 3 or 4 wave serpents in my tournament lists for a long time now and it seems like now that it's harder to blow them up, that people forget to use ignores cover.

3 Hull point isn't that many, as we all know, and it is very common for a WS to have fired off it's shield, so if you use ignores cover, you should be able to hull point them dead fairly quickly. The rest is tactics.

How many armies have access to Str 7 + Ignore cover? Tau with Marker Lights, Other Serpents, Guard with Orders? Do tell me, what do my Dark Eldar do? What do Space Marines do? Why is it that in these discussions everyone just...assumes that everyone plays either Tau, Eldar, Necrons or Daemons and if you don't then you don't have the 'right' to attempt to play competitively? I have said it before and i will stick to it, in Pick up games, if someone has more then 2 Wave Serpents, i won't play them. Dark Eldar simply have no counter to them (If you say ''ally in Eldar'' i will cut you...) and they single handedly can destroy my entire army, even when Snap Firing! But in a tournament, i don't have to the choice to not play Wave Serpent Spam, which is ever so popular. Why should i auto-lose a match simply because the opponent has 3 units which can stomp my entire army? How can you say that ''the rest is tactics'' when nothing in my army can scratch them?

 Galorian wrote:

 Gangrel767 wrote:
Ignores cover + STR 7 or greater = dead serpents.

I have been running 3 or 4 wave serpents in my tournament lists for a long time now and it seems like now that it's harder to blow them up, that people forget to use ignores cover.

3 Hull point isn't that many, as we all know, and it is very common for a WS to have fired off it's shield, so if you use ignores cover, you should be able to hull point them dead fairly quickly. The rest is tactics.

Right... Please refresh my memory, which armies have high strength ignores cover shooting again?

Hmm if iirc its Eldar!

and IG, then Tau!

Sororitas do as well - Dominions with Melta guns - course they have to get near to the superfast Wave Serpents

but remember folks its not that the WS is broken - we are all just bad players..............not like those tactical geniuses that use them - why I bet they are soo good they could even win games, wthout..... gasp..... using Wave Serpents.

Not like the rest of the smucks who also play lesser armies.............

Why is it that in these discussions everyone just...assumes that everyone plays either Tau, Eldar, Necrons or Daemons

cos the more powerful the army - the more "tactical" and "skilled" you are

 Mr Morden wrote:
So the best weapon aginst a Cheese Serpent is another one? What do you use when not spamming Wave Serpents?

Tactics - hmm - always easier when you have better weapons and equipment............... why is that people keep saying the the Av 12 3HP WS is an easy kill - compared to what - a Land Raider in cover? Which people pay a premium for

I have only spammed my Wave serpents twice honestly. I only usually run 3 or 4 in my tournament list. Spamming them is really running 6+, for example at TempleCon there was someone there with 8 Wave Serpents. Besides that, I'm talking about a tournament list, where you would be using your best tools. I would never run all 6 of mine in a friendly game unless we were prepping for a tourney.

Av12 with 3HP is not that hard. It's the same as most AM tanks/transports. It is only 1 pip higher than a rhino. Not to mention Hand to hand combat will ruin a serpent, but I suppose everyone will just say that ever happens.

 Galorian wrote:


Right... Please refresh my memory, which armies have high strength ignores cover shooting again?

Off the top of my head, without research.... Tyranids (hive guard), Astra Militarum, Tau (missile sides come to mind), and anyone with access to Divination - I have also been hull pointed to death by thunderfire cannons, and centurions (of course now they don't ignore cover). Even without ignores cover, there are many ways to get a multitude of firepower onto a serpent. I never seem to make my cover saves on the damn things anyway. lol


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Mr Morden wrote:
Sororitas do as well - Dominions with Melta guns - course they have to get near to the superfast Wave Serpents

but remember folks its not that the WS is broken - we are all just bad players..............not like those tactical geniuses that use them - why I bet they are soo good they could even win games, wthout..... gasp..... using Wave Serpents.

Not like the rest of the smucks who also play lesser armies.............

Why is it that in these discussions everyone just...assumes that everyone plays either Tau, Eldar, Necrons or Daemons

cos the more powerful the army - the more "tactical" and "skilled" you are

Wow, someone seems bitter. I'm not sure if this was focused on me specifically, but I have won many games without Wave Serpents. My comment on Tactics was more a comment on learning how to out play your opponent. Nothing is more frustrating than when someone walks up to a table and has the cheddar smeared all over his list. i have had those games too, Ovesa-Star comes to mind, As well as the screamerstar. I completely understand where you are coming from, but most times, when a player feels he has a killer list, he plays sloppy. Making simple mistakes and you can make him pay for it. Of course these conversations are hard to have over the internet, because everything seems snarky.

What army do you play? perhaps I can recommend something from my experience? I do not pretend to be some wise sage, I'm just a guy who has been playing GW games forever and so I don't get too upset over stuff.

 Gangrel767 wrote:


Av12 with 3HP is not that hard. It's the same as most AM tanks/transports. It is only 1 pip higher than a rhino.

While true, IG tanks and rhino's can't sport a 3+ cover save, in the open, whenever they want, even when immobilized, on top of effectively ignoring pen's

 Vaktathi wrote:

 Gangrel767 wrote:


Av12 with 3HP is not that hard. It's the same as most AM tanks/transports. It is only 1 pip higher than a rhino.

While true, IG tanks and rhino's can't sport a 3+ cover save, in the open, whenever they want, even when immobilized, on top of effectively ignoring pen's

Agreed, but if you are able to ignore cover, and the serpent player has shot his shield....

Besides, you shouldn't be focusing on trying to get a penetrating hit, you should be focusing on hull pointing it down.

Regardless, I'm not here to argue. I just know that I have been playing my lists for a long time and I have serpents go down all the time. Maybe it is purely my inability to roll a 3+ when I need it... :p

 Gangrel767 wrote:

 Vaktathi wrote:

 Gangrel767 wrote:


Av12 with 3HP is not that hard. It's the same as most AM tanks/transports. It is only 1 pip higher than a rhino.

While true, IG tanks and rhino's can't sport a 3+ cover save, in the open, whenever they want, even when immobilized, on top of effectively ignoring pen's

Agreed, but if you are able to ignore cover, and the serpent player has shot his shield....

Thats several Ifs - as opposed to the Wave Serpent who just shoots as it ignores cover and should devestate its opposite numbers

 Gangrel767 wrote:
What army do you play? perhaps I can recommend something from my experience? I do not pretend to be some wise sage, I'm just a guy who has been playing GW games forever and so I don't get too upset over stuff.

Then please help me, How do Dark Eldar counter Wave Serpents? They sit at the Nadir of of our Dark Lances effectiveness for points (We are good vs AV 13/14 due to the extra points those pay for extra AV we don't care about, and good against AV 10/11 due to low AP and medium/high strength), and against an Average Wave Serpent who is jinking (They have no reason not to, they can destroy my vehicles even when Jinking...) I need to cause 3 hull points, which glance on 4's, so i need 6 hits, except 3+ Jink means i need 18 hits, so assuming i missed 1/3 that means i need 27 Dark Lance shots to hull point out a single Wave Serpent. Unless my math is really, really off, can you tell me with a straight face that isn't ridiculous? Haywire, forget it. How is that AV 10 2 HP Venom gonna get those Wyches to it? They aren't. Heat Lance? 2 Per unit and if i shoot i am not Blade Vaning. How do *I* counter Wave Serpents, because it seems to me they can counter my entire army. Also, if you suggest ally in Eldar like i think you will, i will be most displeased...

 ALEXisAWESOME wrote:

 Gangrel767 wrote:
What army do you play? perhaps I can recommend something from my experience? I do not pretend to be some wise sage, I'm just a guy who has been playing GW games forever and so I don't get too upset over stuff.

Then please help me, How do Dark Eldar counter Wave Serpents? They sit at the Nadir of of our Dark Lances effectiveness for points (We are good vs AV 13/14 due to the extra points those pay for extra AV we don't care about, and good against AV 10/11 due to low AP and medium/high strength), and against an Average Wave Serpent who is jinking (They have no reason not to, they can destroy my vehicles even when Jinking...) I need to cause 3 hull points, which glance on 4's, so i need 6 hits, except 3+ Jink means i need 18 hits, so assuming i missed 1/3 that means i need 27 Dark Lance shots to hull point out a single Wave Serpent. Unless my math is really, really off, can you tell me with a straight face that isn't ridiculous? Haywire, forget it. How is that AV 10 2 HP Venom gonna get those Wyches to it? They aren't. Heat Lance? 2 Per unit and if i shoot i am not Blade Vaning. How do *I* counter Wave Serpents, because it seems to me they can counter my entire army. Also, if you suggest ally in Eldar like i think you will, i will be most displeased...

Easy- Ally Tau!

 ALEXisAWESOME wrote:

 Gangrel767 wrote:
What army do you play? perhaps I can recommend something from my experience? I do not pretend to be some wise sage, I'm just a guy who has been playing GW games forever and so I don't get too upset over stuff.

Then please help me, How do Dark Eldar counter Wave Serpents? They sit at the Nadir of of our Dark Lances effectiveness for points (We are good vs AV 13/14 due to the extra points those pay for extra AV we don't care about, and good against AV 10/11 due to low AP and medium/high strength), and against an Average Wave Serpent who is jinking (They have no reason not to, they can destroy my vehicles even when Jinking...) I need to cause 3 hull points, which glance on 4's, so i need 6 hits, except 3+ Jink means i need 18 hits, so assuming i missed 1/3 that means i need 27 Dark Lance shots to hull point out a single Wave Serpent. Unless my math is really, really off, can you tell me with a straight face that isn't ridiculous? Haywire, forget it. How is that AV 10 2 HP Venom gonna get those Wyches to it? They aren't. Heat Lance? 2 Per unit and if i shoot i am not Blade Vaning. How do *I* counter Wave Serpents, because it seems to me they can counter my entire army. Also, if you suggest ally in Eldar like i think you will, i will be most displeased...

Sure, I'll PM you, I don't want to derail the thread too much.