So, now that the dust has settled a bit and we've had some time to (attempt to) accept the fact that BT got rolled, what are your opinions on how the army plays? I'm not interested in whether or not you think Templars belong in their own book or not, I'm interested in the way people think things turned out.

I, for one, still hate it. When the only two good (non-HQ) melee units in the book are Honour Guard and TH/SS Terminators it's kinda hard to get any melee-ing done, especially considering the state of melee in 6th edition. With the loss of Righteous Zeal and Rage, as well as the massive nerf to our Chaplains, Crusader Squads can no longer, in my opinion, pull their own weight as melee units. We're stuck in the same boat as our traitor-equivalent, the World Eaters: a few powerful melee units and a lot of meh ones, where the good ones more or less has to take a Land Raider of some sort to get into combat (and I'm being generous and calling Khorne Berzerkers "good once they're in melee" here, which they're really not).

As a closing note, I'm going to be pretentious enough and quote myself:

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:

 Skriker wrote:
[Why can't Ultramarines, Blood Angels, Dark Angels and other marine forces do the same thing?

Skriker

Because we don't trust GW to not feth it up. I wouldn't mind seeing Templars rolled into the Vanilla Codex if it was done well, I've just not seen anyone do it well yet.

To me, my cynicism seems to have been vindicated.

Thoughts?

But BT were never melee they were always shoty. they spamed minimax las/plas and tank hunter cyclon armed terminators with 2 hvy weapons in 5 man squads and a lot of cylcon armed speeders. I have never seen anyone in 5th or 6th play BT as a melee , and considering they had the same codex in 4th , I would have expected that they were run the same back then .
Maybe you run them wrong all the time ?

Makumba wrote:
But BT were never melee they were always shoty. they spamed minimax las/plas and tank hunter cyclon armed terminators with 2 hvy weapons in 5 man squads and a lot of cylcon armed speeders. I have never seen anyone in 5th or 6th play BT as a melee , and considering they had the same codex in 4th , I would have expected that they were run the same back then .
Maybe you run them wrong all the time ?

I do assume you've read the BT fluff, yes?

That said, CML Terminators and Speeders were only around for the latter half of 5th edition when GW updated CMLs to work the same in all Loyalist Codices (along with Storm Shields, Signums and some other stuff). In 4th you could consolidate into close combat, making Righteous Zeal a much better rule than in 5th and (especially after the FAQ) 6th.

In 4th, Templars could be ran as a working melee Codex, it's just that in 5th and, even more so, 6th edition the things that made the old Codex work either got changed or FAQ'd. The Codex didn't age very well, causing people to spam whatever worked. That doesn't make the Codex one that's supposed to be a shooting army. All the special rules in the 4th edition Codex either buffs melee somehow (better cover, scout moves, Preferred Enemy/Rage, +1S in close combat, Righteous Zeal) or is actually detrimental to shooting (reduced Ld target priority).

Well there is a significant difference to World Eaters.

Crusaders are dirt cheap (or at least no dearer than other Marines) and can have ranged weapons.

They weren't a significant assault presence in 5th edition either, or at least I never saw them used as such. Minimum squad sizes with maximum ranged weapons seemed to be the way to go.

Of course, unlike Khorne Berzerkers, Crusaders can at least take a Land Raider as a dedicated transport if you really want to get across the battlefield. I doubt it's feasible to fill your troop choices with five man squads in Land Raiders, but it would be a different army.

Assault terminators were the only worthwhile assault unit in 5th edition, so making Honour Guard feasible as an assault unit is actually an improvement. Vanguard allow the same equipment as power armoured Sword Brethren and can have jump packs.

Less clearly distinct from Codex Marines they certainly are, but I think they gained a bit from being rolled into the Codex, including the fact that they'll now be updated whenever the Space Marines are updated.

Overall I'd say the changes were neutral. Neither better nor worse than they were, just different.

Freman Bloodglaive wrote:
Well there is a significant difference to World Eaters.

Crusaders are dirt cheap (or at least no dearer than other Marines) and can have ranged weapons.

CSM with the Mark of Khorne and Standard are better in CC than Crusader Squads and can still take ranged weapons (two specials>one special and a heavy). When was the last time you saw someone run that?

Freman Bloodglaive wrote:

Assault terminators were the only worthwhile assault unit in 5th edition, so making Honour Guard feasible as an assault unit is actually an improvement. Vanguard allow the same equipment as power armoured Sword Brethren and can have jump packs.

Crusader Squads were feasible as delivery systems for a Marshal or Chaplain. Rerolls to hit on EVERYONE meant a lot. Losing the Crusader Squad as semi-useful unit isn't worth gaining one more super-expensive melee unit that requires you to take a super-expensive HQ to unlock it. Vanguard Veterans aren't good. Assault Centurions aren't good. Thanks to the changes in Chapter Tactics (loss of RZ, Rage, and nerfed Chaplains) Crusader Squads got WORSE in close combat compared to the old Codex, even if they did drop in cost and picked up Grenades.

Freman Bloodglaive wrote:

Less clearly distinct from Codex Marines they certainly are, but I think they gained a bit from being rolled into the Codex, including the fact that they'll now be updated whenever the Space Marines are updated.

Overall I'd say the changes were neutral. Neither better nor worse than they were, just different.

Gained a lot of stuff that everyone else does better. Let's be honest, if not for stubborn refusal to give up, why would anyone ever play with the BT Chapter Tactics over one of the others?

The last sentence (inadvertently?) sums up the entire problem; it's different to how the fluffs portrays them, and it's not stronger in 6th edition than the 2004 Codex released two editions ago if you're playing it as Black Templars.

The BT player in our group gave up on them and sold his army. Now he is playing Orks.

I for one like it.

I will grant you I am fairly new, but I read the Black Templar codex in 5th edition, and read helsreach and got totally sold on their fluff. They are my favorite chapter, by far.

However, just because they are a close combat squad, doesn't mean you can forget shooting. So lets look at the good close combat squads
Honor Guard
TH/SS Terminators
Full Crusader squads in LRC

How many more close combat units do you want? Lets not forget this is a sci-fi setting with huge tanks, massive plasma guns, gauss rifles, and large turrets. Yes, Black Templar have a love for bringing the fight to close quarters, but they aren't foolish enough to forget their shooting. The one thing I don't like about the army though is the BT named HQs. I feel the emperors champion is a big let down, and that the chapter champion from the honor guard is actually better than he is.

That being said, there are a lot of tools in the space marine codex that give the BT more range, more options, and a much better chance at winning than the 4th edition codex. Are their CT tournament worthy? probably not, but I still like the feel the have.

I'd sell my templars if I could find someone...... (to put it politely, due to the new rules) gullible enough to want a BT army, think I'll stick with my IG as my main army from now on. To say I'm not impressed with the changes is an understatement!

The thing all those melee units have in common is that you have to run them in Land Raiders to make them effective (and even then, Crusader Squads aren't really that effective at actually killing things for how much they cost). Yes, the new Codex very likely is more powerful if you go full shooting, but I'd argue that it's actually WORSE at melee than the old one (and it wasn't exactly murdering its way through the game...). As for the increase in shooting power, everyone else does that better. Why would you take CT:BT if the only thing it's better at than everyone else (melee)is something at which the Codex sucks anyway?

As you say, all three of the Special Characters are jokes (with Helbrecht being the closest to playable in my opinion), and the only buff to close combat we get is rerolls and rending in Challenges on Characters. Compare that to Bolter Drill or the Salamanders thingie. There's virtually nothing to help Templars be better in CC than any average Marine, and our supposed way into Close Combat adds slightly less than 1" on average per turn. I don't mind Crusader, it's a good rule, but not as a replacement for Righteous Zeal.

I'm actually not too convinced that the new Codex is stronger than the old one. The things that makes Codex: Space Marines competetive either aren't available at all (Tigurius/Librarians) or aren't that good outside of certain Chapter Tactics (Bikers (White Scars/Iron Hands), Sternguard (IF/Salamanders)). The only thing that's the best with Chapter Tactics: Black Templars are Crusader Squads, and that's only because no one else gets them. We already had Stormtalons/Stormravens and gave up double-weapon Terminators for Centurions and a rather hefty nerf in CC power for Crusaders for a slight drop in cost and grenades.

Speaking as someone familiar with the book but not an actual BT player, I understand the frustration at losing your shiny bells but find it very hard to believe that the army is worse off.
In almost every sense the army was made stronger, you've leapt ahead regarding future updates and available units, and the true 'losses' can be counted on one hand.

Half of the Templars 'traits' were actually generic 4th ed traits that were only existing because the army was so badly out of date. Veteran skills, heavy terminators, customisable heroes and PotMS were never yours to lose, the only reason you had them was because you were so left behind that nobody had bothered to take them off you yet.
What did you actually lose?

Holy Orbs of Antioch and the Blessed Hull. 2 pieces of wargear, one of which existed purely to spite an intended hard counter to Land Raider armour.
You lost Righteous Zeal which single-handedly made objective games essentially unwinnable. Any benefit the rule might have given died with 4th because in its latest incarnation, it simply made your Scoring units worthless.
You lost a range of Vows available, which might matter if it weren't for the fact that in the entire books lifetime I never saw anything other than AAC. Incidentally that had already changed from PE to Rage, so redefining it a second time cannot be that bad.

In exchange for these 4 unique traits you've gained a massively expanded armoury and unit selection, point drops across the board and the guarantee that your book wil never be outdated ever again.
You even kept your Las-Plas squads against all expectations.

Fluff and the uniqueness of a dedicated book are different altogether but in terms of performance, you have skyrocketed.

 Icculus wrote:


How many more close combat units do you want? Lets not forget this is a sci-fi setting with huge tanks, massive plasma guns, gauss rifles, and large turrets. Yes, Black Templar have a love for bringing the fight to close quarters, but they aren't foolish enough to forget their shooting. The one thing I don't like about the army though is the BT named HQs. I feel the emperors champion is a big let down, and that the chapter champion from the honor guard is actually better than he is.

That being said, there are a lot of tools in the space marine codex that give the BT more range, more options, and a much better chance at winning than the 4th edition codex. Are their CT tournament worthy? probably not, but I still like the feel the have.

You're right it's scifi. Anything goes. There is nothing that says that range weapons have to be better than power armor and force fields. There are plenty of examples in scify/fantasy where shooty lasers become redundant due to better protective technology and fighting falls back to melee.

As far as gameplay goes Black Templar Chapter tactics are the weakest of the bunch. Admantium will is ok but Crusader is pretty poor and Accept any Challenge are meh compared to the options that other chapters get.

Special characters are also mediocre at best. You can kit a standard SM Captain better than the Emperors Champion. Grimaldus is ok but his servitors can no longer join another unit with him like before so they aren't worth taking. You are better off taking two Chaplains for the same price which gives you more wounds more attacks and flexibility. A standard SM Chapter master can be kitted better than Helbretch and gets Orbital bombardment and can get eternal warrior.

The Crusader squad is still available which is the highlight of the Black Templar options. Can still field 20 man squads or 19 if you take a Sword Brother(Vet Sgt). You can still take a special/heavy/combi weapon combo in a 5 man squad. Gives you the option of fielding a very shoot army with multiple small units.

Black Templars were a close combat oriented army with rules that helped them foot slog across the field faster and hit hard on the assault. That was overshadowed by an old rule set that allowed them to min max MSUs in the last edition of the codex making them excel as a shooty army. Now that they have been rolled in, i don't expect GW to bother spending any more effort on them. They are basically a foot note now being one less product line that GW needs to support.

Sure you can take grav centurions, thunder-fire cannons, dev squads, etc... At that point just play Ultra marines painted black since their tactics are better.

I have played Black Templar since 4th, and I have to agree that they lost their identity.

Being rolled into the codex was not beneficial to the players that wanted their own identity. Did BT gain a lot of the book? Yes they did, but other chapters with BETTER traits also gained these things, making playing Black Templar largely pointless.

We get Crusader Squads (as already covered- a mediocre melee unit at best), and over costed unique Characters.

What the naysayers need to realize is that Black Templar players don't really WANT to play them as a shooty army (for the most part). That's not what BT is all about. In 4th they were arguably the best Marine equivalent of a melee based army.

In essence, we were squatted. Yes, we got a small section in the new Marine Codex, but it may as well be nonexistent.

I have not heard anyone talking about Templar since the new book came out- hell, people talked about Templar more in 5th (and even that was rare).

Whatever the identity of Templars was supposed to be in 4th, it died long before they were rolled in. This book is an update of what the Templars became, for good or bad, and on that basis it is absolutely an improvement.

Melee-Marines were not viable under the last Codex when placed in 6th edition. You still only saw shooty Crusaders, unless they were abusing clearly unintentional Drop Pod mechanics that again, only existed because they were out of date. Your Codex became the missile-spewing, Terminator heavy Marine army that simply abandoned objectives and had an arbitrarily restrictive armoury.
'Black Tide' sucked as soon as 6th was released, not with the new book. To pretend that this book robbed you of a play style seems petty when that style was utterly redundant, weak and borderline unplayable.

Complaints that the book did not return your melee style are more warranted, but the state of the game would require massive changes and plummeting points costs. Frankly it was a case of accepting this update, or remaining in bad-mechanics limbo as you try and force a 4th ed style and mechanics into a game 2 editions removed.

Mozzamanx wrote:
Whatever the identity of Templars was supposed to be in 4th, it died long before they were rolled in. This book is an update of what the Templars became, for good or bad, and on that basis it is absolutely an improvement.

Melee-Marines were not viable under the last Codex when placed in 6th edition. You still only saw shooty Crusaders, unless they were abusing clearly unintentional Drop Pod mechanics that again, only existed because they were out of date. Your Codex became the missile-spewing, Terminator heavy Marine army that simply abandoned objectives and had an arbitrarily restrictive armoury.
'Black Tide' sucked as soon as 6th was released, not with the new book. To pretend that this book robbed you of a play style seems petty when that style was utterly redundant, weak and borderline unplayable.

Complaints that the book did not return your melee style are more warranted, but the state of the game would require massive changes and plummeting points costs. Frankly it was a case of accepting this update, or remaining in bad-mechanics limbo as you try and force a 4th ed style and mechanics into a game 2 editions removed.

Oh I acknowledge that, it's more so the BT players had a glimmer of hope that GW would actually give us our identity back instead of relegate us to another shooty Marine army.

Although in reality they haven't addressed melee with any books in this edition. Nids, the supposed answer to the prevalence of gunlines and shooty armies in 6th, is also a mid-range shooty armor (just with more numbers).

Quite frankly this edition is incredibly boring for anyone that doesn't overly favor shooting, but to each their own. Note I am not suggesting melee should be king again, just more balance between the two.

Balance is anathema to GW.

I use the generic Chapter Master with all the special goodies. Talk about a close combat beast! 2+/3++ eternal warrior with 6 attacks if he's with an honor guard, or FnP with a command squad. Then the honor guard gets 2 attacks each and all have power weapons. That feels like Black Templar to me.

You can still run black tides, and you can even get more initiates in now because they are cheaper. You want to run 4 LRCs at 2000 points each loaded with initiates? go for it. should leave you around 400 points for an HQ and some ranged/air support.

Don't just look at the Black Templar units (crusader squads and HQs) and CTs in the codex and say now BT suck. The whole book is BT! Is the whole book worse than 4th edition codex? You can ally in whoever you want and paint them all Black Templar you know.

I think you are more upset that dedicated close combat is not successful in this edition. When you say this is sci-fi and anything it possible, you are right, but you have to have rules to back it up. So instead of being upset that Black Templars didn't get a huge close combat buff, you should be upset that this is a shooting favorable setting now. Maybe next edition, close combat will come back.

Were you looking for their chapter tactics to be: Ignores Overwatch? Because that would honestly make them really good in close combat.

AlmightyWalrus wrote:I'm not interested in whether or not you think Templars belong in their own book or not, I'm interested in the way people think things turned out.

It would be totally awesome if people would stick to the topic given by the OP.

Personally, from my couple of games with borrowed minis, it felt like I could never fit enough land raiders or storm ravens into the list to make an army that feels like the Black Templars described in fluff. Assaulting out of pods is clunky and worse than podding scoring sternguard anyways. Dreads don't benefit from chapter tactics, Helbrecht or Grimaldus in any way, so they are out of the picture for angry assaulty marines as well.
It boils down to having two assault units at most with a ton of support fire. If one of the delivery systems fails, the unit inside tends to be completely worthless, if it's not killed outright anyways (plane crash).

The big issue is the chapter tactics being completely worthless compared to the other ones. An additional point to Deny the Witch! is nice against daemons and Space Wolves, unused against anything else. The challenge buff means that most people don't rely on their 3+ armor to win challenges and are more likely to decline if anything. Considering how most of my units were stationary or inside transports, extra speed from crusader didn't really do anything from me either.

In the end, BT is better than Raven Guard, but worse than Ultramarines (Chapter Tactics: Tigurius), Imperial/Chrimson Fists, Salamanders or White Scars. The CC buff should have been to all models, not just those in challenges, both Grimaldus and Helbrecht should have conferred their buffs to the entire force and being able to mount assault ramps on rhinos would also have been nice. As it is, BT don't have anything that sets them apart from any other chapter except cute but irrelevant treats. Considering how the go-to assault chapter Blood Angels is also failing, it's not surprising that a Chapter with literally no special close combat ability is failing as well.

Luckily for me, realizing this before actually buying any minis saved me a couple hundred euros. Too bad GW, you almost had me throwing another 400€ at your terrible game by luring me in with that beautiful setting


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Icculus wrote:
Don't just look at the Black Templar units (crusader squads and HQs) and CTs in the codex and say now BT suck. The whole book is BT! Is the whole book worse than 4th edition codex? You can ally in whoever you want and paint them all Black Templar you know.

The issue is, almost every single one of those choices would have been better if you just pick a different chapter tactic. Crusader squads is the only thing BT have going for them at all, and while being able to bring twice as many special weapons is nice, its not even remotely in the same league as Tigurius, white scars chapter tactics or even scoring sternguard.

Were you looking for their chapter tactics to be: Ignores Overwatch? Because that would honestly make them really good in close combat.

Against tau maybe. I usually lose 0-3 orks to overwatch, I'd argue that a unit in power armor, artificer armor or even tactical dreadnought armor shouldn't be giving a damn.

Jidmah just summed up my own feelings rather well. When the only way to get into combat is by Land Raider, it's not going to work reliably.

The thing is, they wouldn't even have had to try to make it (the Chapter Tactics) better than what they did. Rerolls in close combat, bring back 4th edition Righteous Zeal, DONE.

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:
Jidmah just summed up my own feelings rather well. When the only way to get into combat is by Land Raider, it's not going to work reliably.

The thing is, they wouldn't even have had to try to make it (the Chapter Tactics) better than what they did. Rerolls in close combat, bring back 4th edition Righteous Zeal, DONE.

That's pretty much 6th in a nutshell TBH, most melee units are hampered by poor choices in getting to assault.

Meqs in general are bleh in CC. And the delivery methods don't help either.

They would be the very last chapter tactic I would pick tbf. You can make a far better list than BA if going shooty but if you WANT to make an assaulty list (and you are BT so you obviously do want to) then we have FAR better options. And we are considered one of the most underpowered over costed dexes. I really feel your pain, why should you be hamstrung into creating a shooty list when you dont want to? Also if BA were rolled into the vanilla dex I would have rage quitted!
Allied inquisition, guard blobs, BA and even white scars could really help you out. But why should you be required to need allies to be an effective assault army when your entire fluff and gw showcase armies are all about assault???

As I quoted myself saying, I don't mind being rolled, what I do mind is getting nerfed when we had a 9 year old Codex. That's more than GWs usual incompetence. Even the CSM Codex, bland and uninspired as it is, buffed them.

Before the codex was released I tried to be positive about being rolled in.

I hoped getting access to expanded options and how good some of the rumored Chapter Tactics were sounding made things seem promising.

I was wrong.

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:
So, now that the dust has settled a bit and we've had some time to (attempt to) accept the fact that BT got rolled, what are your opinions on how the army plays? I'm not interested in whether or not you think Templars belong in their own book or not, I'm interested in the way people think things turned out.

I, for one, still hate it. When the only two good (non-HQ) melee units in the book are Honour Guard and TH/SS Terminators it's kinda hard to get any melee-ing done, especially considering the state of melee in 6th edition. With the loss of Righteous Zeal and Rage, as well as the massive nerf to our Chaplains, Crusader Squads can no longer, in my opinion, pull their own weight as melee units. We're stuck in the same boat as our traitor-equivalent, the World Eaters: a few powerful melee units and a lot of meh ones, where the good ones more or less has to take a Land Raider of some sort to get into combat (and I'm being generous and calling Khorne Berzerkers "good once they're in melee" here, which they're really not).

As a closing note, I'm going to be pretentious enough and quote myself:

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:

 Skriker wrote:
[Why can't Ultramarines, Blood Angels, Dark Angels and other marine forces do the same thing?

Skriker

Because we don't trust GW to not feth it up. I wouldn't mind seeing Templars rolled into the Vanilla Codex if it was done well, I've just not seen anyone do it well yet.

To me, my cynicism seems to have been vindicated.

Thoughts?

Most of these issues seem to be edition/core rules related and not necessarily an issue with the army being rolled into C:SM. Getting stuff into melee effectively is a general issue of this edition (though I'm also of the opinion it's a good one, assaults should be something to clear an enemy from a specific position not the primary attack method, but that's another thread altogether).

The changes to Chaplains happened in 5E, the BT army list just didn't catch up, as did the double heavy weapon terminators and the like. likewise Rage wasn't anything useful except for the first year-ish of 6E for BT's, it was more of a detriment in 4E and 5E. Righteous Zeal is something of a loss, but who knows if it would have survived as it was if the BT's had gotten their own book, given how similar special rules from 4E, I don't think it's a safe bet.

All this said, Templars gained access to numerous units they did not have before, they have Strenguard and Vanguard vets to replace Sword Brethren, more than a fair trade. They also got all the other SM goodies and standard units.The BT's now have access to fliers, to LR Redeemers, Ironclad Dreads, Thunderfire cannons, AA units, cheaper drop pods and rhinos, etc. The Emperor's Champ is no longer a mandatory character, which should be a good thing, Templar forces need not pay for one if they don't need him, but can still bring him if they want, though yeah he's not quite as good as before.

Ultimately, no, the Templars aren't going to play like they used to, just as C:SM doesn't play like it did in 4th edition. Overall however, BT's have access to a much expanded arsenal and a greater array of capabilities and options than they had before, and, if played with that in mind, are certainly more capable than their old book. If one wants to try and keep playing a 4E paradigm of an assault minded army consolidating into new combats and after getting stuck in with everything on turn 2, that won't work, but then it didn't really work in 5E either, 6th just drove it home.

 Vaktathi wrote:


The changes to Chaplains happened in 5E, the BT army list just didn't catch up, as did the double heavy weapon terminators and the like. likewise Rage wasn't anything useful except for the first year-ish of 6E for BT's, it was more of a detriment in 4E and 5E. Righteous Zeal is something of a loss, but who knows if it would have survived as it was if the BT's had gotten their own book, given how similar special rules from 4E, I don't think it's a safe bet.

Both Blood Angels (5th edition) and Dark Angels (6th edition) still have W3 I5 Chaplains with access to gear. Rage was Preferred Enemy before GW decided to change that for no reason in the 6th edition FAQ.

 Vaktathi wrote:

All this said, Templars gained access to numerous units they did not have before, they have Strenguard and Vanguard vets to replace Sword Brethren, more than a fair trade. They also got all the other SM goodies and standard units.The BT's now have access to fliers, to LR Redeemers, Ironclad Dreads, Thunderfire cannons, AA units, cheaper drop pods and rhinos, etc. The Emperor's Champ is no longer a mandatory character, which should be a good thing, Templar forces need not pay for one if they don't need him, but can still bring him if they want, though yeah he's not quite as good as before.

BT already had fliers (and as such AA) and had cheaper Drop Pods than Codex: Space Marines.

As I've already said, I'm not too sure that the new Codex played as BT is better than the old book, even when going shooting. The good units in Codex: Space Marines are good because they benefit in some way from Chapter Tactics. Grav-bike spam is good because you get either 6++ FNP or Skilled Riders from Iron Hands or White Scars, Sternguard are good because of Vulkan or Kantor, and Gravturions are good because of Tigurius. None of those builds are very impressive with CT:BT.

BT aren't what they used to be IMHO. Even now I'd rather play with the old codex than the current one. Although BT were more viable at shooting than assaulting even in 5th, their assault was still viable. Their infantry moved quickly, and PE crusader squads with chaplains could put the beat down on all but the toughest enemy units. Now they're slightly faster regular marines, albeit with new toys. But I would much rather loose these and have the standard initiates be able to pack a punch in CC than this ridiculous situation there is now. Being able to simply take chainswords and a hidden PF isn't nearly enough.

What really miffs me is the loss of character and the fething up of their named heroes. I've tried countless times to field the EC successfully, but he simply can't recover his 140pts.

We play in edition where melee is severely hampered for everyone. Templars can throw everyone into Raiders for the assault ramp. Black Templar Rhinos should get assault ramps because?

All Space Marines lost their 4th edition Chaplains, some just lost them in 5th edition. You can still have 10 initiates, 4 neophytes, and a Chaplain in a Crusader, and charge them out with re-rolls to hit.

Are White Scar tactics better if you take bikes? Yes they are. Nonetheless Black Templars can take bikes as troops anyway. Are Imperial Fists better if you load up on bolter marines? Yes they are, but you can take bolter marines anyway.

Black Templars are a Space Marine army with a bias towards melee. They have flexibility. They are not great in melee, but they are still better at it than other Marines.

AlmightyWalrus wrote:
Both Blood Angels (5th edition) and Dark Angels (6th edition) still have W3 I5 Chaplains with access to gear.

And all Chaplains in 3E/4E were W3 I5. Only the "Angel" chapters kept them however. One will note that SW's don't have W3 chaplains (er... "Wolf Priests") either. They were never a specific BT hallmark.

BT already had fliers (and as such AA)

It was only the Storm Talon though if I'm remembering correctly, not the Stormraven (or was it the other way around?) plus they now have the new ground based AA units/weapon options.

and had cheaper Drop Pods than Codex: Space Marines.

Were their pods cheaper? I don't have the book in front of me, I thought they were more expensive. I could be remembering that wrong.

As I've already said, I'm not too sure that the new Codex played as BT is better than the old book, even when going shooting. The good units in Codex: Space Marines are good because they benefit in some way from Chapter Tactics. Grav-bike spam is good because you get either 6++ FNP or Skilled Riders from Iron Hands or White Scars, Sternguard are good because of Vulkan or Kantor, and Gravturions are good because of Tigurius. None of those builds are very impressive with CT:BT.

They may not be as impressive when not tailored to the specific combat tactics, I won't deny that, but they are better than what the BT's had with their previous codex and give them an increased array of options relative to what they had.

Freman Bloodglaive wrote:
We play in edition where melee is severely hampered for everyone. Templars can throw everyone into Raiders for the assault ramp. Black Templar Rhinos should get assault ramps because?

Because melee is severely hampered for everyone. It'd help it be not as hampered. Not sure where you're going with this.

Freman Bloodglaive wrote:

All Space Marines lost their 4th edition Chaplains, some just lost them in 5th edition. You can still have 10 initiates, 4 neophytes, and a Chaplain in a Crusader, and charge them out with re-rolls to hit.

Read the thread.

Freman Bloodglaive wrote:
Black Templars are a Space Marine army with a bias towards melee. They have flexibility. They are not great in melee, but they are still better at it than other Marines.

Marginally. Still worse than the 9 years old 4th edition Codex.

 Vaktathi wrote:

AlmightyWalrus wrote:
Both Blood Angels (5th edition) and Dark Angels (6th edition) still have W3 I5 Chaplains with access to gear.

And all Chaplains in 3E/4E were W3 I5. Only the "Angel" chapters kept them however. One will note that SW's don't have W3 chaplains (er... "Wolf Priests") either. They were never a specific BT hallmark.

Ah, forgot about the Space Wolves. 50/50 split it is then, with the two more recent ones being W3 I5. You'd think that a crusading army would have some sort of Chaplain bonus, but no...

 Vaktathi wrote:

BT already had fliers (and as such AA)

It was only the Storm Talon though if I'm remembering correctly, not the Stormraven (or was it the other way around?) plus they now have the new ground based AA units/weapon options.

The thunderfire cannon doesn't do anything worthwhile?

Thats just one example, but I think playing space marines with chapter tactics BT against a 4th ed codex Black Templars at the same point level would prove this. I am fairly certain the 6th ed codex would beat the 4th ed codex almost everytime.

Freman Bloodglaive wrote:
They have flexibility. They are not great in melee

And that is the core of the issue... they should be great in melee, at the cost of flexibility compared to vanilla Marines. A proper, balanced, up-to-date BT list should be able to play melee heavy - effectively - and thus reflect their fluff. It shouldn't be too much to ask for, but as Walrus said all along, it was too much to expect from GW when they got rolled.

People can point out and say how their 4th ed codex was weak/outdated and they're now stronger and more "in line" with the 6th ed meta, etc, etc... but at what cost? At the cost of character, which is more the pitty and what makes their merge with vanilla Marines the step back we all feared it would be. People who collect Templars generally do so because of their fluff, look, character... not their competitiveness compared to other flavoured Marines.

 Anfauglir wrote:

Freman Bloodglaive wrote:
They have flexibility. They are not great in melee

And that is the core of the issue... they should be great in melee, at the cost of flexibility compared to vanilla Marines. A proper, balanced, up-to-date BT list should be able to play melee heavy - effectively - and thus reflect their fluff. It shouldn't be too much to ask for, but as Walrus said all along, it was too much to expect from GW when they got rolled.

People can point out and say how their 4th ed codex was weak/outdated and they're now stronger and more "in line" with the 6th ed meta, etc, etc... but at what cost? At the cost of character, which is more the pitty and what makes their merge with vanilla Marines the step back we all feared it would be. People who collect Templars generally do so because of their fluff, look, character... not their competitiveness compared to other flavoured Marines.

Spot on. If I wanted to play Ultramarines, I would have.

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:
[

In 4th, Templars could be ran as a working melee Codex, it's just that in 5th and, even more so, 6th edition the things that made the old Codex work either got changed or FAQ'd. The Codex didn't age very well, causing people to spam whatever worked. That doesn't make the Codex one that's supposed to be a shooting army. All the special rules in the 4th edition Codex either buffs melee somehow (better cover, scout moves, Preferred Enemy/Rage, +1S in close combat, Righteous Zeal) or is actually detrimental to shooting (reduced Ld target priority).

But 4th was skimer land from what I have been told . A melee army would be hiting them on +6 doing nothing , you would also have to deal with genestealers with old type rending and I think they had frags back then . It would be stupid to run BT in 4th as a melee army.


Also you can do good melee with them now . Take some bikers and a biker chapter master with TH/ES ally in some WS to spread around scout and hit and run keeping the WS characters and techmarines in BT units and BT characters in WS biker squads and you have good melee characters and access to gravitons. It is like playing shoty and melee at the same time .

Makumba wrote:

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:
[

In 4th, Templars could be ran as a working melee Codex, it's just that in 5th and, even more so, 6th edition the things that made the old Codex work either got changed or FAQ'd. The Codex didn't age very well, causing people to spam whatever worked. That doesn't make the Codex one that's supposed to be a shooting army. All the special rules in the 4th edition Codex either buffs melee somehow (better cover, scout moves, Preferred Enemy/Rage, +1S in close combat, Righteous Zeal) or is actually detrimental to shooting (reduced Ld target priority).

But 4th was skimer land from what I have been told . A melee army would be hiting them on +6 doing nothing , you would also have to deal with genestealers with old type rending and I think they had frags back then . It would be stupid to run BT in 4th as a melee army.

Templars was an early-4th Codex, Eldar didn't roll around to boss everyone around until later in the edition.

Templars was an early-4th Codex, Eldar didn't roll around to boss everyone around until later in the edition.

Didn't the pre craftworld eldar run star cannons that shot 3 or 4 times , those armies were killing marines in 3ed and skimer rules were the same through whole 4th.

Makumba wrote:

Templars was an early-4th Codex, Eldar didn't roll around to boss everyone around until later in the edition.

Didn't the pre craftworld eldar run star cannons that shot 3 or 4 times , those armies were killing marines in 3ed and skimer rules were the same through whole 4th.

I'm not sure what the differences between 3.5 Eldar and 4th Eldar were, but seeing as Trifalcon didn't become a thing until after the 4th edition Codex I'd imagine it had something to do with the Holo-fields in the 4th edition book interacting with the rules for SMF, meaning you had a 1/36 chance per damaging shot to kill an Eldar skimmer. As I said, though, I'm not sure how Holo-fields worked in the 3.5 Codex.

I think there are 2 common fallacies being bandied about as well in here that go along way towards the dislike of the new book. I am not here to start a fight or call out players as being wrong, only give my observations as someone with no investment or sentimentality towards the army.

1) You should not be gauging the Templars strength relative to the Scars, or the Hands or the Ultramarines. You should be rating them to the older book. White Scar tactics are likely better than the Templar tactics, but then they were also better than the actual Templar book. This is because Bikers are a stronger base than melee-MEQs and always have been. If Templars remained a separate book, you'd still have just as much justification to jump Chapters because it is working along a concept that 6th has absolutely nuked into irrelevance.
Yes, Biker-lists are stronger than footblob-lists. A White Scar biker is better than a Templar Biker. However this would be true regardless of the Chapter Tactics unless Templars received cheaper Bikes, or *massive* price cuts to their infantry. And then we'd be stuck in a land of 'must take at least 10 models before you get guns' or 'all special weapons are twice as expensive' because otherwise, you'd just see cheaper Crusaders toting Plasma Guns and forming the same gunlines, except using cheaper bodies.
The problem is that a MEQ is a slow, expensive model not at all suited to combat in an edition that actively punishes the attempt. This was true when you had your own book, and would remain true unless GW redefined what it means to be a Crusader.

2) I do not believe your melee is any worse than it was before. You had expensive dudes with Rage before, and now you have cheaper dudes with free Sergeants and Grenades. The net result is a similar weight of dice being thrown down, except these are not reliant on a charge and remain far stronger when off the charge.
You had Righteous Zeal for an uncontrollable movement which ruined any chance of holding objectives. Now, you have a much more consistent, more reliable speed boost from Crusader.
Before you had Crusaders, now you can add Redeemers and Stormravens to the tally. Before you had FC Clawminators, now you have 25pt Veterans with Artificer Armour and Power Weapons. You have usable Assault Marines, new Vanguard, an improved Chapter Master and in a pinch, even Bikes.

As said before you'd have a stronger argument for stating that they made no effort to make assault work as the basis for a list. However it is just as prevalent as it was before, you just have a massively-increased range of options to do so. It is the fault of the Edition that these options are largely inferior to shooting.

Makumba wrote:
Also you can do good melee with them now . Take some bikers and a biker chapter master with TH/ES ally in some WS to spread around scout and hit and run keeping the WS characters and techmarines in BT units and BT characters in WS biker squads and you have good melee characters and access to gravitons. It is like playing shoty and melee at the same time.

So... basically your solution is to play White Scars painted black.

His solution is that if you want your army to be defined by winning in combat, you should take units that might actually reach it. I know the iconic image is a wave of black power armour rushing across the field and storming the trenches. But in a world of Heldrakes throwing AP3 about like confetti, Riptides spewing ordnance and jetting away from reprisal, or daemons rushing into you with silly amounts of Rending attacks, what would a Crusader need to be to work?

You'd have to drop the cost to 10-11pts as a baseline. But then we have 10-11pt Marines who are still perfectly capable of shooting. So you impose limits that you need 10 models per special weapon, or those weapons cost twice as much, or you reduce the unit to BS3. Because otherwise you'd just spawn a cheap gunline.
Except that's not a Crusader, because why is a Crusader BS3 or inherently less valuable than a Tactical? If you make them faster, why do they move faster for any reason other than trying to make your vision work?

Infantry-models that pay significant points for BS4 and a Bolter are not a good basis for running melee hordes, and never will be unless you start drastically redefining what the unit is or why it can do certain things. Any attempt to make them cheaper simply allows for larger number of guns. Any attempt to deliberately inhibit shooting means they are now weaker than other Chapters. Any attempt to introduce super-powers or take shortcuts to improve melee, goes the other way and makes them arbitrarily better than other Chapters.

None of this is the fault of the Codex, nor the dedicated one before that. It is a problem that is consistent across the whole of 6th Edition.

I would like to run an army of Ork walkers using the Dread Mob list, except this is another example of slow melee being kicked in the teeth. I would like Kroot to be a melee unit again, but the current rules makes the sniper route an obviously superior option. I would like to run Chaos Power Armour and frolic with Berzerkers and Possessed, but that is simply not going to happen.
Slow power-armoured melee is a losing proposition and do not blame your new Codex for causing that. Black Tide died during 5th Edition, 6th Edition roughed the corpse up a bit and set it on fire, and the new Codex is simply burying it in favour of an army that actually works.

For me, things are about the same as they were in 5th and 6th with the old codex, but I pretty much gave up on my Templars once 5th hit. I'll run triple LRCs and play for the lols, which is about where I am now. We have some more shooting options and I don't think we lost anything that worked terribly well, so I suppose I'd have to say things got better. That said I still think we went from mediocre to mediocre and, eh, I'm tempted to set aside the small part of my BT army that I'm really happy with the painting on, and just Angry Marine the rest of it.

They are Space Marines you can paint your whole army as Templar and run them as any chapter you want. The fluff could be they spent forever fighting along side X chapter or whatever fluff story you want to make up.

I like Space Marines b/c as long as you use WYSIWUG they are very versatile in how and what you use them as.

I am of the opinion that BT just got squated with the release of the 6th Space Marine codex. I bought into BT because I wanted a SM army that was melee based, I loved the zealotry, the gothic style, the colors, everything about them really. They quickly became my second favorite army behind Tyranids and I loved playing them in 5th and into 6th with the old codex. I played them as they were ment to be played, with a mix of foot slogging melee squads and a hammer of a LRC with TH/SH Termies lead by a Chaplin. I was pure assault, all the way, every time, even well into 6th edition and through an escalation league my FLGS ran. Then the new codex came out, I looked over the codex and was disappointed, I played it for about a month and just didn't like what had happened to my BT. The worst part of all of it to me was knowing that the potential for the army was gone, the hope that some day I could once again play my assault based marines and get new toys like everyone else was gone. I got rolled into a codex and people told me I should be happy, cause I got access to ALL of the shooty I could handle! Yeah! I could be more competitive and that is what I wanted right? Well...no...if I wanted to be competitive I wouldn't have been playing BT in 5th and into the beginning of 6th. What I can play now is black Ultramarines with worthless chapter tacitcs. In the end I gave my 6th codex away to a kid who had just started Space Marines at the end of 5th and couldn't afford the new codex. I have my BT sitting around gathering dust as I plan to get around to selling them or trading them for something else...

TL;DR version, The loss of potential has destroyed the army. Never again will they be their own army and will just be another color of Space Marine.

Arbiter_Shade wrote:

TL;DR version, The loss of potential has destroyed the army. Never again will they be their own army and will just be another color of Space Marine.

Which is how they were in 2nd edition anyway.

Because they didn't exist in 2nd edition?

The Templars changes have simply taken their identity. Who cares if they are stronger or weaker in an ever changing world of GW's turnover rules?

They lost their soul, and thus the reason to even play them.

I was pretty disappointed with some of the changes to the Templars. Crusader I think is slightly better than Righteous Zeal but only marginally so. IMO the major hit to Templars came from the change to consolidation rules and loss of fearless. The extra movement from consolidation is what kept them from being torn apart by ranged combat, and allowed you to butcher multiple units in cc. They also had an excellent and under-utilized loophole with their bikers that made for an awesome deathstar unit with a boatload of power weapon attacks (no longer an option). Their hold over smoke grenades also made it possible to reliably get your Rhinos across the table, which is much less likely in the current edition. If you want to have a shot at getting into cc you need to use landraiders or stormravens now and that's still a gamble.

At the time of their release the extra attack from default double armed in cc made them really shine, their techmarine and assault terminators were icing on the cake but both of those are gone now. Spacewolves and Blood Angels have far more effective cc units, Space wolves are better on the charge and equally as good on the counter charge, Templars are a step above other vanilla marines but they are still behind both SW & BA. Which is further weakened by the current editions love for shooting.


They picked up a lot of new toys being included in codex space marine but I do feel that their chapter tactics are a bit lacking compared to the other options. I do think being able to skip the emperor's champion is nice. I've never had much luck with him and he's largely been a waste of points I'd rather put into something else. (Love the fluff behind the EC but he's never been a good use of points)

I think they play quite a bit differently then they used to and they lose a lot of the play style that helped make them distinct. IMO Crusader squads are pretty reflective of how Templars are organized but unfortunately that doesn't offer anything unique that mixes in well compared to how other chapters interact with their armies as a whole. Putting a bunch of cheap initiate/neophyte bodies on the table just doesn't have much weight as a stand alone tactic.

I think they are still playable as they have access to the same marine arsenal now, but mechanically they don't offer anything unique and most other chapters have better chapter tactic benefits. As there's no solid hook I think they feel a bit too much like all the other marines. I'll likely continue to do as I was under previous editions playing the rules of space wolves or white scars depending on how I want to build a list and simply use Templar models. They still look great on the table but their rules are a bit meh

This is what I have been hearing:
I lost my Close Combat Army: You now have Combat Squads, Honor Guard, Vanguard Vets, Crusader Squads, Scout Squads, Assault Terminators, Assault Squads and Assault Centurions.

I lost my Special Rule that makes us great in Close Combat: Have you read Crusader, even Eldar are going to fear loosing you in an Assault and you can’t. All of your Characters Get rerolls to hit and Rending. Space Wolves have to pay for that and most of the models that can’t be involved in challenges. Yes that Rending Power Maul Sucks really sucks vs. MCs.

I lost my Really Cool Special Characters:
>High Marshal Hclbrccht: Mastercrafted 5-7 Rending Attack on the Charge with a 4 wound model and once a battle army wide Hated and Fleet, I am sorry this is such a bad thing especially when mixed with a Furious Charge.
>Chaplain Grimaldns: A 3 Wound Model with a 4++ Save and Regenerates while giving everything near him Zealot. Lets not forget about the 4 Mastercrafted S6 Rending Attacks.
>Emperor’s Champion: Lets not forget he has a choice of 3 Mastercrafted to hit S6 Rending Attacks or 3 Mastercrafted to his S4 Rending Attacks that can cause Instant Death.

Your units:
>Crusader Squads: You can pull off a Hidden Power Axes or Power Fist that are immune to challenges, plus Meat-Shields and everyone can take a Bolt Pistol and a Chain Sword, all of that loaded into a AV14 Vehicle with an Assault Ramp. There is nothing Assault orientated there, is there?
>Close Combat Scout Squads in Land Speeder Storms: Assaulting out of an Open to Vehicle, I guess you can’t do that, wait you can.
>Vanguard Veteran Squads/Assault Squads: Yes that Sergeant with his Mastercrafted Rending Power Sword or Mastercrafted Rending Lighting Claw.

How more Assault orientated Marines do you have.

As a Space Wolf Player I look at you and am so glad I have Counter Attack because I am Pure Shooty Army compared to you at times.

 Anpu42 wrote:


I lost my Really Cool Special Characters:
[b]>Chaplain Grimaldns: A 3 Wound Model with a 4++ Save and Regenerates while giving everything near him Zealot. Lets not forget about the 4 Mastercrafted S6 Rending Attacks.

It will not die regeneration is not as good as his previous ability as it requires the model have at least one remaining wound. You can wipe the model in a single round and regeneration will not come into effect where as the previous version could be near impossible to kill as it could repeatedly be used to prevent the last wound. Zealot is reflective of the standard chaplain abilities as is the +2Str from the Crozius although his has the benefit of being master crafted.

I'm not seeing where he gets rending from, source?

 Anpu42 wrote:

>Emperor’s Champion: Lets not forget he has a choice of 3 Mastercrafted to hit S6 Rending Attacks or 3 Mastercrafted to his S4 Rending Attacks that can cause Instant Death.

Those options only apply in challenges, whereas the previous Emperor's champion was at Str 6 all the time.

 Anpu42 wrote:


Your units:
>Crusader Squads: You can pull off a Hidden Power Axes or Power Fist that are immune to challenges, plus Meat-Shields and everyone can take a Bolt Pistol and a Chain Sword, all of that loaded into a AV14 Vehicle with an Assault Ramp. There is nothing Assault orientated there, is there?

Sure it's assault themed, but crossing the field it's nowhere near as survivable as it was in the previous edition (old BT smoke launchers) Large point investment to ensure the crusader squad has a moderate chance. Was a much more viable choice for the heavy hitting Terminator HQ/Command squad, but that's no longer an option.

 Anpu42 wrote:


>Close Combat Scout Squads in Land Speeder Storms: Assaulting out of an Open to Vehicle, I guess you can’t do that, wait you can.
>Vanguard Veteran Squads/Assault Squads: Yes that Sergeant with his Mastercrafted Rending Power Sword or Mastercrafted Rending Lighting Claw.

How are these specific to Templars? They are accessible to pretty much everyone in codex space marine. Sure it's cc focused but it's not Templar centric.



Templars lost their furious charge assault terminators which was their most killy unit. Not saying they can't front an assault focused army but it has changed a lot from what it previously was. Their special characters have been downgraded a bit, landraiders lost blessed hull which was usefull (and very fluffy). Their best assault unit was removed outright and with the exception of the crusader squad their remaining assault units and options are exactly the same as every other chapter. All of the sacred relics and holy items are gone from their war gear options. (again very fluffy) They lost their dark chocolate flavor in order to gain access to all the shared vanilla entries. IMO not worth it.



.

No need for this bit. Thanks.
Reds8n


Seriously.

Rending and re-rolls in challenges?

Going to the same smoke launcher rules as everyone else, rather than leftover 4th edition rules?

Reliable units, rather than ones likely to run off?

Access to units that actually fit in the current meta, rather than gaining a bunch of rules completely different to everyone else in the game in order to support a playstyle obsolete an edition ago?

Want a terminator command squad? Take Dark Angels allies. An Interrogator Chaplain in terminator armour will allow you to take a Deathwing Command Squad. To be frank they're not really worth it, but it is an option. Give that Chaplain a power field generator and he can even give a fairly large Crusader squad a decent save against AP2 ranged weapons. If you're relying on non-power weapon attacks the 4+ invulnerable save you give the enemy probably won't matter.

 Anpu42 wrote:
This is what I have been hearing:
I lost my Close Combat Army: You now have Combat Squads, Honor Guard, Vanguard Vets, Crusader Squads, Scout Squads, Assault Terminators, Assault Squads and Assault Centurions.

Combat Squads on Tactical Marines, yes. Not on Crusaders. Assault Squads, Assault Centurions, and Vanguard Veterans are sorry excuses for melee units, and Crusader Squads aren't exactly stellar (and, for the record, your Grey Hunters are still vastly superior, despite being one edition behind).

 Anpu42 wrote:
This is what I have been hearing:
I lost my Special Rule that makes us great in Close Combat: Have you read Crusader, even Eldar are going to fear loosing you in an Assault and you can’t. All of your Characters Get rerolls to hit and Rending. Space Wolves have to pay for that and most of the models that can’t be involved in challenges. Yes that Rending Power Maul Sucks really sucks vs. MCs.

And this is where I realize you haven't actually read the rules you're commenting on. Rerolls to hit and rending IN CHALLENGES. So yes, that Rending Power Maul sucks against MCs, because it means you're going up with one MEQ Sergeant against an MC.

Crusader would be nice if there'd actually be some sort of way to get into close combat reliably against Eldar in the first place, and if it didn't increase the odds of wiping a unit on the charge massively (which is bad).

 Anpu42 wrote:

I lost my Really Cool Special Characters:
>High Marshal Hclbrccht: Mastercrafted 5-7 Rending Attack on the Charge with a 4 wound model and once a battle army wide Hated and Fleet, I am sorry this is such a bad thing especially when mixed with a Furious Charge.
>Chaplain Grimaldns: A 3 Wound Model with a 4++ Save and Regenerates while giving everything near him Zealot. Lets not forget about the 4 Mastercrafted S6 Rending Attacks.
>Emperor’s Champion: Lets not forget he has a choice of 3 Mastercrafted to hit S6 Rending Attacks or 3 Mastercrafted to his S4 Rending Attacks that can cause Instant Death.

Helbrecht is S4 AP3. He used to get the +D3 attacks in the first turn of combat, regardless of who charged him, and it'd stack with charges. "Old" Helbrecht in 6th edition had 7-10 attacks on the charge and had Bionics for a 6++ FNP. I'm not saying the special rules are bad, but he lost a bit of his already questionable melee prowess to gain something that used to be our Chapter Tactics (and for only one turn to boot). Would you like it if you had to take Logan to get Counter-Attack?

Grimaldus is 185 points for a W3 3+/4++ model. I'm not going to say anything else than that. He's ridiculously overcosted.

The Emperor's Champion is AP2 base, so the Rending in Challenges is mostly moot. He's 140 points for a W2 HQ that strikes at S4 unless you want him to be unwieldy and lose an attack (because the S6 stance is 2-handed). He also only gets S6 or ID on rolls of 6 in Challenges. He's utter rubbish and the fact that you're trying to defend him as a useful unit lessens my opinion of you. Add 25 points and you get a Captain with Artificier Armour and the Burning Blade.

 Anpu42 wrote:

[b]Your units:
>Crusader Squads: You can pull off a Hidden Power Axes or Power Fist that are immune to challenges, plus Meat-Shields and everyone can take a Bolt Pistol and a Chain Sword, all of that loaded into a AV14 Vehicle with an Assault Ramp. There is nothing Assault orientated there, is there?
>Close Combat Scout Squads in Land Speeder Storms: Assaulting out of an Open to Vehicle, I guess you can’t do that, wait you can.
>Vanguard Veteran Squads/Assault Squads: Yes that Sergeant with his Mastercrafted Rending Power Sword or Mastercrafted Rending Lighting Claw.

How more Assault orientated Marines do you have.

As a Space Wolf Player I look at you and am so glad I have Counter Attack because I am Pure Shooty Army compared to you at times.

25 points for a Power Fist on an A1 model is folly. Complete and utter folly. The Axe is better, true. It's not a viable assault army if the only reliable way you have into CC is a Land Raider. It's the same issue plaguing World Eaters players (well, that and Berzerkers are junk). 10 Marines, 5 Scouts, Power Axe and Sergeant with Lightning Claw/PW in an LRC is 480 (!!) points.

Yes, you can take 5 Scouts in a LSS and hope to assault with them. A 10/10/10 2HP Open-topped vehicle is literally the most flimsy vehicle possible in the game. What are you going to melee to death with 5 Scouts?

Assault Squads are rubbish, there's a reason they're not fielded competetively outside of triple-flamer Pods. Vanguards are Assault Squads on steroids, but still not that good. Again, it's Rending IN CHALLENGES, and can't be Master-Crafted unless you're playing Salamanders.

As a Black Templars player, I'd gladly give up Assault Centurions, Vanguard Veterans, Assault Marines and even Assault Terminators for Grey Hunters. They're so much better than every other MEQ Troops Choice (excluding Grey Knight variants) that it's silly.

Mozzamanx wrote:
You'd have to drop the cost to 10-11pts as a baseline. But then we have 10-11pt Marines who are still perfectly capable of shooting. So you impose limits that you need 10 models per special weapon, or those weapons cost twice as much, or you reduce the unit to BS3. Because otherwise you'd just spawn a cheap gunline.
Except that's not a Crusader, because why is a Crusader BS3 or inherently less valuable than a Tactical? If you make them faster, why do they move faster for any reason other than trying to make your vision work?

They move faster for the same reason they did in the last Codex: They're insane. Sisters of Battle gain Invulnerable Saves from their belief in the Emperor (and Templars used to have that ability too), why couldn't the Templars be faster because they're the only Chapter to worship the Emperor as a God?

Freman Bloodglaive wrote:


Rending and re-rolls in challenges?

"I deny your challenge." Whoops, looks like that Chapter Tactic isn't going to help you be better at fighting now, sorry about that.

Freman Bloodglaive wrote:

Want a terminator command squad? Take Dark Angels allies.

So to get a more Templar themed army play Dark Angels? got it.

Just for the record since it's been mentioned several times, Righteous Zeal-ing away from objectives wasn't an issue until the crotch-kicking FAQ in 6th edition that forced you to move the full distance, and even then you could go to ground to circumvent the movement.

As a Black Templars player, I'd gladly give up Assault Centurions, Vanguard Veterans, Assault Marines and even Assault Terminators for Grey Hunters. They're so much better than every other MEQ Troops Choice (excluding Grey Knight variants) that it's silly.

So at this point, it's less 'I don't have assault!" to "I want very competitive assault!"?

 ZebioLizard2 wrote:

As a Black Templars player, I'd gladly give up Assault Centurions, Vanguard Veterans, Assault Marines and even Assault Terminators for Grey Hunters. They're so much better than every other MEQ Troops Choice (excluding Grey Knight variants) that it's silly.

So at this point, it's less 'I don't have assault!" to "I want very competitive assault!"?

If the units can't pull their own weight they might as well not exist.

Well i was outraged at first when we got rolled in, for 2 reasons: Fear that we would get librarians, and scout company
Loss of crusadersquads
REALLY $HITTY chaptertactics on paper(crusader and adamantium will, reroll to hit and rending in challenges)
But after cca. 20 games i can say that i can ACTUALLY Field templar blobs with 2 landraiders(!!) without charging an arm or leg in points cost, which is really cool, considering that their numbers are approximately 6k marines(possibly even 10k) and ...
Love the new rules for Helbrecht and grimaldus( Helbrecht's crusade of wrath rule is really nice, love the feeling when i assault the enemy gunline with cca 40-50 crusaders and honourguard; brutal rule if timed correctly, and his one use furious charge is WAY more useful than it might seem
on paper.. Altough it pains me we got only four pages of fluff
tl;dr really crappy rules on paper but in reality it is amazing how nasty can it be on table, GJ on codex Cruddace

You'll have to forigve me if I'm cynical and sceptical, but how do you get 40-50 Crusaders, Helbrecht AND Honour Guard across the board intact? Even if it's bare-bones, the Crusaders are 700 points, Helbrecht is another 180 and the Honour Guard is 135 for 5. That's over a thousand points in footslogging marines with no shooting outside of 12".

yeah, not really intact, but i always prefer to drive them the longer course safely(coversaves etc.) rather than full straight to get blown up for easy firstblood and the payload butchered.. Basically i put helbrecht and honourguard in LR redeemer and 16 crusaders(or 15 with chaplain if not using helbrecht) in LRC, and a 20man blob, again through cover. In my area we play with LOTS of terrains, so...

Many Templar players are under the impression that they're just meant to be another assault army. This is only half true...

There are four main CC oriented loyal SM armies:
Space wolves: a berserker type army (focused on number of attacks and brute force, and wolfs lol)
Grey knights: the elite army. (a well-equipped strike force that relies on quality troops that outclass everyone else)
Blood Angels: the speed force. (Focused on deep strike and fast vehicles to get to the enemy quickly)
And. The Black Templars: the horde army (focused on big blobs of troops that are more numerous but not as skilled as other chapters)

Black Templars, unfortunately, are kind of an oxymoron. They're an elite army that's trying to act like a hoard. Their rules and fluff have reflected this. The fact that they were the first chapter to use the LRC (a land raider that focuses on large model count) is an example. However, most players have forgotten this fact since they were overpriced due to their outdated codex. There's a reason black Templars weren't number one in 4th, 5th, or 6th edition. They never have excelled at anything. They try to juggle being good at assault while still being decent at shooting, while trying to be an elite hoard of large units running up the board. It just doesn't work, because they have no specialty and their very nature won't allow for anything else. You can try Land raider spam, but that's about it.

This is why I think BTs are never going to be competitive army. They have an interesting premise and the idea of space crusaders is really cool, but it just doesn't make for competitive rules.

So, to answer the OPs question of how I think BTs turned out in this edition... I say that BTs are the same a they have always been and always will be, a lower tier army with a cool theme.

Grey Knights are a shooting army primarily. They've always been better at shooting than at melee, Force Weapons or not.

Moving on, Templars haven't ever been about "numbers over skill" or about hordes in the fluff. If anything, with the Emperor's Champion and the whole Preferred Enemy deal, they're MORE skilled than an average Marine Chapter in Close Combat. Their two preferred modes of attack are, as per Codex: Black Templars, Drop Pod Assaults or Armoured Spearheads (Assault Ramp Rhino, anyone?), not "rush blindly in hordes at the enemy".

Other than that, I agree to a point. Part of the issue is that the Templars aren't specialized enough, but I disagree that it's due to trying to do shooting just as good. Whirlwinds and Devestators weren't in the 4th edition Codex, and the "Kill Them All!" special rule made Templars take Target Priority Tests at -1Ld, making them worse at shooting than other Marines. The issue is that GW consistently overvalues melee units, and paying for BS4 on a unit that's not going to shoot anything other than pistols is rather silly. Decreasing the BS of Crusaders to 3 for a 2 PPM drop with the option to buy an extra BS for 2 PPM would be a good starting point, and could easily be explained fluff-wise with some Templars being more hot-headed than their brethren.

Templars are every bit as much a melee army as Orks, and no one would argue that Orks aren't a melee army just because they have Lootas and Kannons for long-range support.

"Black Templars place great emphasis on close combat prowess and honour. As such they can often be seen charging into suicidal situations to avenge fallen comrades. These tactics appear reckless, but their effectiveness is undeniable."
-lexicanum
I'd quote codex: black Templars but I don't have it with me at the moment.

You're correct that they don't focus on shooting. But they don't just throw it out the window either. That's my point. They still have BS4 and can carry boltguns unlike dedicated assault units like assault marines and blood claws.

I'd say that though grey knights have shooty builds, they're still meant for assaulting. The only reason shooty builds have emerged is 6th. In 5th, purifiers and paladins were all the rage.

Also, I never said that Templars weren't a close combat army.

 ironhammer2194 wrote:

I'd say that though grey knights have shooty builds, they're still meant for assaulting. The only reason shooty builds have emerged is 6th. In 5th, purifiers and paladins were all the rage.

And what did those two builds have in common? Psycannons. Lots and lots of psycannons. Purifiers aren't an assault unit, they're a shooting unit that can handle themselves in an assault. In short, everything Tactical Marines ought to be but aren't.

 ironhammer2194 wrote:
"Black Templars place great emphasis on close combat prowess and honour. As such they can often be seen charging into suicidal situations to avenge fallen comrades. These tactics appear reckless, but their effectiveness is undeniable."
-lexicanum
I'd quote codex: black Templars but I don't have it with me at the moment.

Once they're already in combat, sure. They don't just form a wave of bodies to get there, though.

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:

 ironhammer2194 wrote:

I'd say that though grey knights have shooty builds, they're still meant for assaulting. The only reason shooty builds have emerged is 6th. In 5th, purifiers and paladins were all the rage.

And what did those two builds have in common? Psycannons. Lots and lots of psycannons. Purifiers aren't an assault unit, they're a shooting unit that can handle themselves in an assault. In short, everything Tactical Marines ought to be but aren't.

Purifiers are a dedicated assault unit that had the cleansing flame psychic power. It dealt wounds equal to the number of enemy models in combat before blows were struck. They also had I6 force weapons as well. This allowed for them to take out hoards and elites with ease. Don't mix it up with purgation squads. Psycannons are like the lootas of the GK codex. (borrowing your earlier point about orks) The fact that they have a couple good shooting option doesn't change the fact that the GKs were written with close combat in mind.

 ironhammer2194 wrote:

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:

 ironhammer2194 wrote:

I'd say that though grey knights have shooty builds, they're still meant for assaulting. The only reason shooty builds have emerged is 6th. In 5th, purifiers and paladins were all the rage.

And what did those two builds have in common? Psycannons. Lots and lots of psycannons. Purifiers aren't an assault unit, they're a shooting unit that can handle themselves in an assault. In short, everything Tactical Marines ought to be but aren't.

Purifiers are a dedicated assault unit that had the cleansing flame psychic power. It dealt wounds equal to the number of enemy models in combat before blows were struck. They also had I6 force weapons as well. This allowed for them to take out hoards and elites with ease. Don't mix it up with purgation squads. Psycannons are like the lootas of the GK codex. (borrowing your earlier point about orks) The fact that they have a couple good shooting option doesn't change the fact that the GKs were written with close combat in mind.

Purifiers get 2 Psycannons per 5 men, so 4 at 10. Cleansing Flame is there to prevent them from getting bogged down by hordes. They're still primarily shooting units. You'd take Purifiers because they had amazing firepower and were nigh-impossible to lock down in combat, not because they were good in combat alone.

The problems with BT vs Space Wolves is why I hate the concept of Grey Hunters. Or at least, Grey Hunters compared to all other meqs.

I wouldn't mind it if Crusader Squads got some sort of rule to make them better than assault marines on foot in melee (Furious Charge would be enough, although it'd be encroaching on BA territory). With Wolf Banners and Mark of the Wulfen, Grey Hunters are still better off than Crusaders, while being better at shooting too.

You can encroach on BA territory. It's not worth having anyway.

Martel732 wrote:
You can encroach on BA territory. It's not worth having anyway.

What will you post about if BA get the best codex of the edition? Just curious.

They won't. They are meqs. Oh, and choppy. Sounds so OP. If they don't get grav, they'll be down with the DA and CSM.

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:

 ironhammer2194 wrote:

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:

 ironhammer2194 wrote:

I'd say that though grey knights have shooty builds, they're still meant for assaulting. The only reason shooty builds have emerged is 6th. In 5th, purifiers and paladins were all the rage.

And what did those two builds have in common? Psycannons. Lots and lots of psycannons. Purifiers aren't an assault unit, they're a shooting unit that can handle themselves in an assault. In short, everything Tactical Marines ought to be but aren't.

Purifiers are a dedicated assault unit that had the cleansing flame psychic power. It dealt wounds equal to the number of enemy models in combat before blows were struck. They also had I6 force weapons as well. This allowed for them to take out hoards and elites with ease. Don't mix it up with purgation squads. Psycannons are like the lootas of the GK codex. (borrowing your earlier point about orks) The fact that they have a couple good shooting option doesn't change the fact that the GKs were written with close combat in mind.

Purifiers get 2 Psycannons per 5 men, so 4 at 10. Cleansing Flame is there to prevent them from getting bogged down by hordes. They're still primarily shooting units. You'd take Purifiers because they had amazing firepower and were nigh-impossible to lock down in combat, not because they were good in combat alone.

Not really, they get far cheaper melee weapons, they ARE a primary melee unit.

 ZebioLizard2 wrote:

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:

 ironhammer2194 wrote:

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:

 ironhammer2194 wrote:

I'd say that though grey knights have shooty builds, they're still meant for assaulting. The only reason shooty builds have emerged is 6th. In 5th, purifiers and paladins were all the rage.

And what did those two builds have in common? Psycannons. Lots and lots of psycannons. Purifiers aren't an assault unit, they're a shooting unit that can handle themselves in an assault. In short, everything Tactical Marines ought to be but aren't.

Purifiers are a dedicated assault unit that had the cleansing flame psychic power. It dealt wounds equal to the number of enemy models in combat before blows were struck. They also had I6 force weapons as well. This allowed for them to take out hoards and elites with ease. Don't mix it up with purgation squads. Psycannons are like the lootas of the GK codex. (borrowing your earlier point about orks) The fact that they have a couple good shooting option doesn't change the fact that the GKs were written with close combat in mind.

Purifiers get 2 Psycannons per 5 men, so 4 at 10. Cleansing Flame is there to prevent them from getting bogged down by hordes. They're still primarily shooting units. You'd take Purifiers because they had amazing firepower and were nigh-impossible to lock down in combat, not because they were good in combat alone.

Not really, they get far cheaper melee weapons, they ARE a primary melee unit.

16 S7 AP4 Rending shots at 24" and you want to use them as a melee unit?

Yeah I'm not sure why people are seeing them as a primary melee unit. Not to be offensive here but did you see Grey Knights at their peak? Purifier builds were based on spamming Psycannons, either from a Rhino or alongside Razorbacks. This is because the sheer density of S7/Rending made it one of the primary shooting forces of the day.
In the unlikely event that anything made it thorugh the firestorm, that is when the A2/Cleansing Flame/Force came out and polished off the survivors.

At the very least we could agree that Purifiers were overpowered, but I maintain that they were a better shooting unit than they were as a combat unit.

 Icculus wrote:
The thunderfire cannon doesn't do anything worthwhile?

The wat

theres like

wat

Do you actually think a thunderfire cannon isn't worth its weight in gold?

This thing is like the grey wizard of 40k. Sure it isn't great against beasts, but this thing could stop your opponent waltzing onto an objective turn 5. This thing could tear a unit in cover to shreds, this thing can put so many wounds on a large unit that it won't be funny.

have you ever actually used a TFC? or are you just talking from a closed mind?

Also, BT tactics are awful. and why the hell does the emperor's champion not have the champion of humanity warlord trait automatically?

 Scipio Africanus wrote:

 Icculus wrote:
The thunderfire cannon doesn't do anything worthwhile?

The wat

theres like

wat

Do you actually think a thunderfire cannon isn't worth its weight in gold?

This thing is like the grey wizard of 40k. Sure it isn't great against beasts, but this thing could stop your opponent waltzing onto an objective turn 5. This thing could tear a unit in cover to shreds, this thing can put so many wounds on a large unit that it won't be funny.

have you ever actually used a TFC? or are you just talking from a closed mind?

Also, BT tactics are awful. and why the hell does the emperor's champion not have the champion of humanity warlord trait automatically?

He's saying that the TFC is great, which I can agree with.

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:

 Scipio Africanus wrote:

 Icculus wrote:
The thunderfire cannon doesn't do anything worthwhile?

The wat

theres like

wat

Do you actually think a thunderfire cannon isn't worth its weight in gold?

This thing is like the grey wizard of 40k. Sure it isn't great against beasts, but this thing could stop your opponent waltzing onto an objective turn 5. This thing could tear a unit in cover to shreds, this thing can put so many wounds on a large unit that it won't be funny.

have you ever actually used a TFC? or are you just talking from a closed mind?

Also, BT tactics are awful. and why the hell does the emperor's champion not have the champion of humanity warlord trait automatically?

He's saying that the TFC is great, which I can agree with.

Have I pulled his quote out of context?

Apologies if I have.

 Scipio Africanus wrote:

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:

 Scipio Africanus wrote:

 Icculus wrote:
The thunderfire cannon doesn't do anything worthwhile?

The wat

theres like

wat

Do you actually think a thunderfire cannon isn't worth its weight in gold?

This thing is like the grey wizard of 40k. Sure it isn't great against beasts, but this thing could stop your opponent waltzing onto an objective turn 5. This thing could tear a unit in cover to shreds, this thing can put so many wounds on a large unit that it won't be funny.

have you ever actually used a TFC? or are you just talking from a closed mind?

Also, BT tactics are awful. and why the hell does the emperor's champion not have the champion of humanity warlord trait automatically?

He's saying that the TFC is great, which I can agree with.

Have I pulled his quote out of context?

Apologies if I have.

It's a question, signified by the question mark at the end.

I settled on BT because of the Holy Hand Grenade. Seriously, it was awesome having a Monty Python item show up in my games to rain havoc on my enemies. I also really liked the EC, and he's garbage now. So EC is worthless (and no longer a required/free HQ slot), HHG is gone and AAC is gone. Most people avoid challenges, so the trait skill is garbage too. I tried running a horde army of BT and had the most unenjoyable game of 40k ever. No thanks, it's a big thumbs down. And for the record, I ran a horde army of BT in 5th and had a blast with them. Now...forget about it.

Space Wolves are not an Assault Army, they can be, but they are not. Note the key Words here are “Are” and “Can”. They are a Mid-Ranged-Shooty-Army with Superior-Counter-Attack Ability.
Yes we have the Thunderwolf Cavalry and Fenrisian Wolves and that is it for the Assault part of the army. Everything else requires Independent Characters to become an Assault unit and none of them are cheep.
Crusaders vs. Blood Claws: To make Blood Claws truly effective you need 15 Blood Claws, a Wolf Priest and a Land Raider Crusader [Taking up a HS choice] and that will run you 575 points bare bones, 590 tooled up the same way. The Crusader Squad can pull off the same thing for 442 points, 466 with a Character or 501 tooled up.
Crusaders vs. Grey Hunters: I can pull off a Hidden Power Fist and a MotW and two Special Weapons. That is nice, but I also only have 10 Wounds and a Rhino or Drop Pod as a Transport choice without taking a HS Choice. This means also that I can’t take a Character.

Not Having a Character is a bad thing at times. Without a Character your Sword Brethren with a Power Sword immediately becomes a Hidden Power Sword to of along with that hidden Power Axe and weight of bodies. If I don’t finish you off in the 1st Turn, the Grey Hunters Will Loose. The winner will probably come down to who Assaulted Who.

You can shoot me at 24" and still be as good as me in CC. See where the problem lies? Then there's the whole Wolf Standard/Terminator Wolf Guard combo that lets you tank wounds on a rerollable 2+ armour save once per game in combat.

Plus, if I charge you, you most likely get as many attacks as me AND Overwatch with Bolters. If you charge me, I get overwatch with Pistols and one less attack than you.

I don't think Templars ever really deserve their own codex being a successor chapter. Salamanders or Imperial Fists are much more deserving.

 Dozer Blades wrote:
I don't think Templars ever really deserve their own codex being a successor chapter. Salamanders or Imperial Fists are much more deserving.

Second Founding's the earliest any Chapter's existed. Prior to that both the Imperial Fists (Chapter) and the Black Templars were part of the Imperial Fists Legion. The Legion is not the same as the Chapter.

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:
You can shoot me at 24" and still be as good as me in CC. See where the problem lies? Then there's the whole Wolf Standard/Terminator Wolf Guard combo that lets you tank wounds on a rerollable 2+ armour save once per game in combat.

Plus, if I charge you, you most likely get as many attacks as me AND Overwatch with Bolters. If you charge me, I get overwatch with Pistols and one less attack than you.

The 24" inch range is great, but you can also put out 150% my rate of fire at 12" and double my Attacks in an Assualt.
Wolf Standard: This why I said it depends on the who got the chage. You also have the coice of not Assualting me when I pop the Banner and just shoot me.
Wolf Guard in Terminator Armor: "Yay, now I am on foot or have once less HS Slot and can not pull off sweeping advances". I have also never seen anyone do that around here.

The bottom line is that the Space Wolves must be shot to death unless you have MCs or some other CC star. Other meq lists are stuck shooting them to death because they can't hang in CC and most meq lists don't have the firepower to shoot the Space Wolves to death, either. Space Wolves are ironically much better against other meq lists than Xenos, who where just going to shoot anyway.

Martel732 wrote:
The bottom line is that the Space Wolves must be shot to death unless you have MCs or some other CC star. Other meq lists are stuck shooting them to death because they can't hang in CC and most meq lists don't have the firepower to shoot the Space Wolves to death, either. Space Wolves are ironically much better against other meq lists than Xenos, who where just going to shoot anyway.

Actualy I think a Crusader Squad could easly take down a Grey Hunter Pack if the Black Templar Player was smart about it. You load up on Nyophites with Shotguns and Power Swords and then unload out of the LRC letting loose with 15 S4 and one Flamer. If the Grey Hunters poped thier Banner you just don't get our of the Land Raider untill next turn. Once the Assualt happens there will be 6 AP3 Attacks going off to the Grey Hunter's 3 and/or 1d6+2 MotW attacks of with 1 or 2 may be Rending. There should also be a lot less Grey Hunters thanks to the LRC.

 Anpu42 wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
The bottom line is that the Space Wolves must be shot to death unless you have MCs or some other CC star. Other meq lists are stuck shooting them to death because they can't hang in CC and most meq lists don't have the firepower to shoot the Space Wolves to death, either. Space Wolves are ironically much better against other meq lists than Xenos, who where just going to shoot anyway.

Actualy I think a Crusader Squad could easly take down a Grey Hunter Pack if the Black Templar Player was smart about it. You load up on Nyophites with Shotguns and Power Swords and then unload out of the LRC letting loose with 15 S4 and one Flamer. If the Grey Hunters poped thier Banner you just don't get our of the Land Raider untill next turn. Once the Assualt happens there will be 6 AP3 Attacks going off to the Grey Hunter's 3 and/or 1d6+2 MotW attacks of with 1 or 2 may be Rending. There should also be a lot less Grey Hunters thanks to the LRC.

So it's 10 Crusaders, 5 Scouts and a Land Raider against 10 Grey Hunters? Of bloody course they're going to win, they're more than twice the points.

 Anpu42 wrote:

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:
You can shoot me at 24" and still be as good as me in CC. See where the problem lies? Then there's the whole Wolf Standard/Terminator Wolf Guard combo that lets you tank wounds on a rerollable 2+ armour save once per game in combat.

Plus, if I charge you, you most likely get as many attacks as me AND Overwatch with Bolters. If you charge me, I get overwatch with Pistols and one less attack than you.

The 24" inch range is great, but you can also put out 150% my rate of fire at 12" and double my Attacks in an Assualt.
Wolf Standard: This why I said it depends on the who got the chage. You also have the coice of not Assualting me when I pop the Banner and just shoot me.
Wolf Guard in Terminator Armor: "Yay, now I am on foot or have once less HS Slot and can not pull off sweeping advances". I have also never seen anyone do that around here.

*Claims I can put out more firepower (which requires me to be on foot) and then goes on to complain that Wolf Guards mean he has to be on foot.*

I put out the same shooting OR the same melee (but not both at the same time) for 1PPM less than you do. When you start adding in Neophytes without compensating the Grey Hunters it's no longer even points levels and as such pointless.

Do they still win against 20 grey hunters Anpu?

Lets see 10 Crusaders with 10 Neophytes [no upgrades] = 245 points
20 Grey Hunters [No upgrades] = 300 points
20 Tactical Marines [No upgrades] = 280 points
20 Blood Angels Assault Squad [No upgrades] = 380 with or without jump packs
20 Dark Angels Tactical Marines [No upgrades] = 280 points

So for the numbers Black Templars get more models.

Adding Characters and Transports [The Rhino or Drop Pod]
Crusaders: Adds a Special Weapon
Grey Hunter: Cost a Special Weapon and an Elite Slot
>With a Wolf Guard in Terminator Armor loose one model and the use of the Rhino
Space Marines: Adds a Special Weapon
Blood Angels: Adds a Special Weapon
Dark Angels: Adds a Special Weapon

Adding Characters and Transports [The Land Raider Crusader]
Crusaders: Adds a Special Weapon and up to 6 more Bodies
Grey Hunter: Adds a Special Weapon at the cost of an Elite Slot and a HS Slot
Space Marines: Adds a Special Weapon and a HS choice
Blood Angels: Adds a Special Weapon and a choice of a Land Raider, cheaper if you pull the Jump Packs off the Assault Squad.
Dark Angels: Adds a Special Weapon and a HS choice

To me it looks like Crusaders have the better options.

Black Templars also have more Assault Choices in the Troop slot
Black Templars: Crusader Squads, Scouts
Space Wolves: Grey Hunters
Space Marines: Squads, Scouts
Blood Angels: Assault Squads, Scouts
Dark Angels: Scouts

The point I am trying to make, is it looks like one of the complaints is that Black Templars have lost their Close Assault Ability. When you have to compare your Crusader Squads to Grey Hunters and Grey Knights to show that they have “Lost” Their Assault ability, maybe they have not.

You're ignoring Bloodclaws and Wolf Guard in the Troops slot for Space Wolves. And of course the Crusader Squad gets more models; half of them are Scouts with 4+ armour and WS/BS 3. Further, it's not like you can cram those ten Neophytes into a Drop Pod or Rhino, so you're leaving out that part too.

In the case of the Rhino or Drop Pod you're getting a squad that can shoot as well as the Tactical Squads and fight as well as the Crusaders/Assault Marines. You're completely ignoring that it doesn't matter whether you give up more or not when you end up in a better spot anyway.

 paulson games wrote:

Freman Bloodglaive wrote:

Want a terminator command squad? Take Dark Angels allies.

So to get a more Templar themed army play Dark Angels? got it.

Vanilla marines could field terminator command squads back in 4th; the only edition we could. I think they have been reserved for the DAs these days, and would have been cut from your codex even if you got a stand alone one. That is of course speculation on my part.

 ironhammer2194 wrote:
Many Templar players are under the impression that they're just meant to be another assault army. This is only half true...

There are four main CC oriented loyal SM armies:
Space wolves: a berserker type army (focused on number of attacks and brute force, and wolfs lol)
Grey knights: the elite army. (a well-equipped strike force that relies on quality troops that outclass everyone else)
Blood Angels: the speed force. (Focused on deep strike and fast vehicles to get to the enemy quickly)
And. The Black Templars: the horde army (focused on big blobs of troops that are more numerous but not as skilled as other chapters)

Black Templars, unfortunately, are kind of an oxymoron. They're an elite army that's trying to act like a hoard. Their rules and fluff have reflected this. The fact that they were the first chapter to use the LRC (a land raider that focuses on large model count) is an example. However, most players have forgotten this fact since they were overpriced due to their outdated codex. There's a reason black Templars weren't number one in 4th, 5th, or 6th edition. They never have excelled at anything. They try to juggle being good at assault while still being decent at shooting, while trying to be an elite hoard of large units running up the board. It just doesn't work, because they have no specialty and their very nature won't allow for anything else. You can try Land raider spam, but that's about it.

This is why I think BTs are never going to be competitive army. They have an interesting premise and the idea of space crusaders is really cool, but it just doesn't make for competitive rules.

So, to answer the OPs question of how I think BTs turned out in this edition... I say that BTs are the same a they have always been and always will be, a lower tier army with a cool theme.

Grey Knights are an super elite army. Their weakness is the low model count. They rely on excellent shooting to thin down the enemy and finish off what ever makes it to them in close combat. I don't consider them an assault oriented army in this regard.

Grey Wolves are also an excellent shooty army and excel as a counter assault army.

Blood Angels are a true assault assault army focused on getting to the enemy lines as fast as possible and hitting hard. They use to have the tools for this with fast rhinos and decent of the angels. But since you can no longer assault out of unmoved vehicles allong with the other assault nerfs they have been suffering pretty hard.

Black Templar are elite as any SM. Their fluff was they they never adhered to the Codex Astarte and their chapter numbers exceeded the thousand max making them the largest SM force if they ever gathered together. They were the spiritual successor to the crusading legions of old. This translated game-play wise with large crusader blob squads of marines foot slogging to the enemy and getting really mad while doing it. In 4th edition, they excelled as a foot hoard that moved fast across the board due to Zeal. With servitors that any chaplain could take they had a possibility of moving extra 9" in the enemy's shooting phase. If they made it to a enemy unit with Zeal, they were locked in combat and the party started. It was good fluff and what interested me personally to play the game. Playing a foot hoard is suicide now since they have lost all the tools that made them excel at it. Zeal, Vows, and Fearless in Close Combat and assault has been nerfed badly.

If you want to play Black Templars for the fluff, then by all means. GW hasn't completely destroyed all the past fluff yet. Give them some time though.

If you want to play Black Templars and be competitive, then you're better off fielding Black Ultramarines / WhiteScars / Iron hands. They have Tools that actually work.

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:
You're ignoring Bloodclaws and Wolf Guard in the Troops slot for Space Wolves. And of course the Crusader Squad gets more models; half of them are Scouts with 4+ armour and WS/BS 3. Further, it's not like you can cram those ten Neophytes into a Drop Pod or Rhino, so you're leaving out that part too.

In the case of the Rhino or Drop Pod you're getting a squad that can shoot as well as the Tactical Squads and fight as well as the Crusaders/Assault Marines. You're completely ignoring that it doesn't matter whether you give up more or not when you end up in a better spot anyway.

Ok let’s look at Blood Claws vs. Crusaders:
15 Blood Claws no upgrades: 225 points
15 Crusaders no upgrades [10 Crusaders and 5 Neophytes]: 190 points
20 Crusaders no upgrades [10 Crusaders and 10 Neophytes]: 240 points

Blood Claws do have more than one issue:
Head Strong: I get with in 6” I MUST Assault and forgo Shooting, unless there is a Character in Charge.
WS3: Any choice other than a Wolf Priest makes them a second class unit. At least with a Wolf Priest your get the re-rolls. However one thing to remember it that WS4 hits Blood Claws on a 3+. This takes their base cost for an effective unit from 225 to 325.

Wolf Guard as Troops: Requires Logan at 275 points. As far as Terminators as Troops that is another issue completely.
As for the WS3 4+ Save, Well Blood Claws are WS3 3+ Save for 1 point more than a Crusader.

Neophytes:
In a Drop Pod or Rhino: Is 155 points with a 5/5 mix, that is cheaper compared to a naked Grey Hunter Pack in a Drop Pod or Rhino [185]
Or if you are going to pod your Crusaders in a pod or Rhino for 175, still cheaper than Grey Hunters.

In my Experience with how I run my Grey Hunters in a pod, the Wolf Guard Pack leader has never been better, I usually am giving up one Plasma Gun for a one Shot Combi-Plasma. and with the ATSKNF I do not need the LD9 that bad.

What, a squad of 5 Marines and 5 Scouts is cheaper than a squad of 10 Marines? I'm shocked!

You're paying 1 PPM for counter-attack and a Bolter. Yes, Crusaders are cheaper, but not by enough to offset the power difference.

They didn't get the nickname "Space Cheese" on accident in my local area. It just shows how bad Tau/Eldar/Daemons are, because compared to other meqs, Wolves are 100% cheddar.

Play Space Wolves counts as Templars and be done with it.

 Dozer Blades wrote:
Play Space Wolves counts as Templars and be done with it.

LOL. I couldn't bring myself to do that in 5th with BA.

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:
What, a squad of 5 Marines and 5 Scouts is cheaper than a squad of 10 Marines? I'm shocked!

You're paying 1 PPM for counter-attack and a Bolter. Yes, Crusaders are cheaper, but not by enough to offset the power difference.

I agree on a PPM basis, but it is what you can do with those models that count.
Yes a Fully Kitted out Grey Hunters can take down an equally armed Crusader Squad, but that will never happen in a game. You are not going to hit my 10 Model Grey Hunter Pack with a 5/5 Crusader Squad, if you did I would call you a fool for doing so.

At least I would expect to be hit be a 10/5 Crusader Squad armed with a Power Weapon and Flamer and a Sword Brethren carrying a Power Weapon.

 Anpu42 wrote:

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:
What, a squad of 5 Marines and 5 Scouts is cheaper than a squad of 10 Marines? I'm shocked!

You're paying 1 PPM for counter-attack and a Bolter. Yes, Crusaders are cheaper, but not by enough to offset the power difference.

I agree on a PPM basis, but it is what you can do with those models that count.
Yes a Fully Kitted out Grey Hunters can take down an equally armed Crusader Squad, but that will never happen in a game. You are not going to hit my 10 Model Grey Hunter Pack with a 5/5 Crusader Squad, if you did I would call you a fool for doing so.

At least I would expect to be hit be a 10/5 Crusader Squad armed with a Power Weapon and Flamer and a Sword Brethren carrying a Power Weapon.

And how do you get that 10/5 Squad anywhere? It's either Land Raider or walk, which is the issue.

 Anpu42 wrote:

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:
What, a squad of 5 Marines and 5 Scouts is cheaper than a squad of 10 Marines? I'm shocked!

You're paying 1 PPM for counter-attack and a Bolter. Yes, Crusaders are cheaper, but not by enough to offset the power difference.

I agree on a PPM basis, but it is what you can do with those models that count.
Yes a Fully Kitted out Grey Hunters can take down an equally armed Crusader Squad, but that will never happen in a game. You are not going to hit my 10 Model Grey Hunter Pack with a 5/5 Crusader Squad, if you did I would call you a fool for doing so.

At least I would expect to be hit be a 10/5 Crusader Squad armed with a Power Weapon and Flamer and a Sword Brethren carrying a Power Weapon.

PPM is exactly what we are talking about, not a plastic pushing scenario where I may or may not be able to arrange the situation you describe.

Martel732 wrote:

 Anpu42 wrote:

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:
What, a squad of 5 Marines and 5 Scouts is cheaper than a squad of 10 Marines? I'm shocked!

You're paying 1 PPM for counter-attack and a Bolter. Yes, Crusaders are cheaper, but not by enough to offset the power difference.

I agree on a PPM basis, but it is what you can do with those models that count.
Yes a Fully Kitted out Grey Hunters can take down an equally armed Crusader Squad, but that will never happen in a game. You are not going to hit my 10 Model Grey Hunter Pack with a 5/5 Crusader Squad, if you did I would call you a fool for doing so.

At least I would expect to be hit be a 10/5 Crusader Squad armed with a Power Weapon and Flamer and a Sword Brethren carrying a Power Weapon.

PPM is exactly what we are talking about, not a plastic pushing scenario where I may or may not be able to arrange the situation you describe.

Then this is all in a vacum that means nothing.
If it was just bout PPM why take out the dice

Well, I do prefer games that don't roll dice.

But that aside, even with dice, over large number of rolls, the rule of large numbers of dice will drag all results to the average result. Memorable games may feature strange die rolls at critical junctures, but those are outliers of statistics.

You are proposing that mathematically overpowered units like Grey Hunters are okay because of dice. This is demonstrably wrong over a large number of games. What we really are doing is comparing these two units at equal point values against all possible opponents. The Grey Hunters are way, way better. In fact, too good using other meqs as a metric.

Martel732 wrote:
Well, I do prefer games that don't roll dice.

But that aside, even with dice, over large number of rolls, the rule of large numbers of dice will drag all results to the average result. Memorable games may feature strange die rolls at critical junctures, but those are outliers of statistics.

You are proposing that mathematically overpowered units like Grey Hunters are okay because of dice. This is demonstrably wrong over a large number of games. What we really are doing is comparing these two units at equal point values against all possible opponents. The Grey Hunters are way, way better. In fact, too good using other meqs as a metric.

No, what I am talking about that a well put together unit can overcome it's apprent weakness.

 Anpu42 wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
Well, I do prefer games that don't roll dice.

But that aside, even with dice, over large number of rolls, the rule of large numbers of dice will drag all results to the average result. Memorable games may feature strange die rolls at critical junctures, but those are outliers of statistics.

You are proposing that mathematically overpowered units like Grey Hunters are okay because of dice. This is demonstrably wrong over a large number of games. What we really are doing is comparing these two units at equal point values against all possible opponents. The Grey Hunters are way, way better. In fact, too good using other meqs as a metric.

No, what I am talking about that a well put together unit can overcome it's apprent weakness.

Not over many games, it can't. The mathhammer will catch up to you. Just like right now, BA will probably lose 65-70 games out of 100 against SW. If you and I play twice, and we each win once, you might say they are even, but over 100 games, you can see that they are not. There is no way I can "put together" BA to be good against SW.

Righteous Zeal was an extremely fluffy rule, and it wasn't until the 5e faq that it became a scoring liability.

What made Righteous Zeal nice is that it gave BT extra movement to clash with opponents quicker while simultaneously making them a threat in both your turn and theirs. Combine this with the ability reroll attacks army wide and they were very competent in melee, even with their basic troops.

Now? Don't bother. 4e also didn't use the laughable TLOS rules, so you could actually run hordes across the board without being shot to pieces through minuscule gaps between terrain features.

Righteous Zeal is really easy to fix (post faq nerf)- simply combine it with standard LD tests. If you pass you Zeal forward, so it doesn't trigger off single wounds anymore. Combine this with the Crusader USR to allow extra running distance, and you get a truly mobile foot army. Sprinkle in some close combat love (rage, furious charge, rerolls, what have you) and I would actually play Black Tide instead of Black (insert different chapter here)

Martel732 wrote:

 Anpu42 wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
Well, I do prefer games that don't roll dice.

But that aside, even with dice, over large number of rolls, the rule of large numbers of dice will drag all results to the average result. Memorable games may feature strange die rolls at critical junctures, but those are outliers of statistics.

You are proposing that mathematically overpowered units like Grey Hunters are okay because of dice. This is demonstrably wrong over a large number of games. What we really are doing is comparing these two units at equal point values against all possible opponents. The Grey Hunters are way, way better. In fact, too good using other meqs as a metric.

No, what I am talking about that a well put together unit can overcome it's apprent weakness.

Not over many games, it can't. The mathhammer will catch up to you. Just like right now, BA will probably lose 65-70 games out of 100 against SW. If you and I play twice, and we each win once, you might say they are even, but over 100 games, you can see that they are not. There is no way I can "put together" BA to be good against SW.

This is what Synergy is all about.
Look at Blood Claws, PPM they Suck, but you Attach a Wolf Priest with them and they can pull off fantactic things becouse the Wolf Priest allows them to.

Is that really true? I forget the exact the rule for wolf priests, but if you factor the cost of the priest into the unit, is it really that good of a unit?

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:

Freman Bloodglaive wrote:


Rending and re-rolls in challenges?

"I deny your challenge." Whoops, looks like that Chapter Tactic isn't going to help you be better at fighting now, sorry about that.

And you tell the character who didn't accept the challenge to stand still, do nothing, and get wailed on by the rest of the squad, while your challenge character gets to beat on that character's squad with his boosted stats and equipment.

XenosTerminus wrote:
Righteous Zeal was an extremely fluffy rule, and it wasn't until the 5e faq that it became a scoring liability.

6th edition actually.

XenosTerminus wrote:
Righteous Zeal is really easy to fix (post faq nerf)- simply combine it with standard LD tests. If you pass you Zeal forward, so it doesn't trigger off single wounds anymore. Combine this with the Crusader USR to allow extra running distance, and you get a truly mobile foot army. Sprinkle in some close combat love (rage, furious charge, rerolls, what have you) and I would actually play Black Tide instead of Black (insert different chapter here)

Agreed. It's not even hard and doesn't have to break any existing rules.

Martel732 wrote:
Is that really true? I forget the exact the rule for wolf priests, but if you factor the cost of the priest into the unit, is it really that good of a unit?

Good Yes, Great no.
It give them Favored Enemy of a type chosed at the start of the Game, for me it is usualy ends up being Infantry. If I can get them close and the Assualt I am looking at over 60 Re-Rollable hits.

 Anpu42 wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
Is that really true? I forget the exact the rule for wolf priests, but if you factor the cost of the priest into the unit, is it really that good of a unit?

Good Yes, Great no.
It give them Favored Enemy of a type chosed at the start of the Game, for me it is usualy ends up being Infantry. If I can get them close and the Assualt I am looking at over 60 Re-Rollable hits.

Rerolling ones to-hit. Preferred Enemy isn't reroll to-hit anymore.

Are Blood Claws the guys who get extra attacks on the charge? They are reasonably priced death company. They don't need need the priest to get all those attacks. Hitting on a "4" is not terrible.

Martel732 wrote:
Are Blood Claws the guys who get extra attacks on the charge? They are reasonably priced death company. They don't need need the priest to get all those attacks. Hitting on a "4" is not terrible.

No but being hit on a 3+ is along with not having a choice in Assualting is not, so you need to add a character.

A Re-roll is a Re-Roll, I have hit with around 36 out of 40 attacks with re-rolling 1s.

 Anpu42 wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
Are Blood Claws the guys who get extra attacks on the charge? They are reasonably priced death company. They don't need need the priest to get all those attacks. Hitting on a "4" is not terrible.

No but being hit on a 3+ is along with not having a choice in Assualting is not, so you need to add a character.

A Re-roll is a Re-Roll, I have hit with around 36 out of 40 attacks with re-rolling 1s.

Anecdotal. The average increase against a target of WS 4 would be 20 out of 40 to 23.3333 out of 40. So adding the priest to give favored enemy doesn't even boost the output that much. Where's this synergy?

Martel732 wrote:

 Anpu42 wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
Are Blood Claws the guys who get extra attacks on the charge? They are reasonably priced death company. They don't need need the priest to get all those attacks. Hitting on a "4" is not terrible.

No but being hit on a 3+ is along with not having a choice in Assualting is not, so you need to add a character.

A Re-roll is a Re-Roll, I have hit with around 36 out of 40 attacks with re-rolling 1s.

Anecdotal. The average increase against a target of WS 4 would be 20 out of 40 to 23.3333 out of 40. So adding the priest to give favored enemy doesn't even boost the output that much. Where's this synergy?

The priest added 16 hits and you also now get the re-roll on Damage so those 36 hits I pulled off about 30 wounds iirc.
This is not a one time thing, it happens over and over, game after game.

 Anpu42 wrote:

This is what Synergy is all about.
Look at Blood Claws, PPM they Suck, but you Attach a Wolf Priest with them and they can pull off fantactic things becouse the Wolf Priest allows them to.

Or instead of spending points on the Wolf Priest to make a substandard (compared to Grey Hunters) unit work, you can take Grey Hunters and then a divination Rune Priest or Thunderwolf Lord.

I really didn't like what Phil Kelly did with the Space Wolves. Basically, although they supposedly have a range of choices, really there're only a few options worth taking.

Rune Priests
Grey Hunters
Long Fangs

Thunderwolves as a unit are fairly overpriced for their ability, although a Wolf Lord on thunderwolf is awesome.

Anything else, including even the "legendary" thunderwolves are basically page filler.

Re-rolling 1s, if we use Blood Claws charging, 15 Blood Claws get 60 attacks, half hit for 30 hits, a sixth should be 1s, so 10 1s, re-rolling those should give 5 hits for a total of 35 hits, against marines that would be 17.5 wounds instead of 15. Is an extra 2.5 hits worth the cost of the Wolf Priest?

Statistical aberrations do happen, but those aren't something to base army list selection on.

 Anpu42 wrote:

Martel732 wrote:

 Anpu42 wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
Are Blood Claws the guys who get extra attacks on the charge? They are reasonably priced death company. They don't need need the priest to get all those attacks. Hitting on a "4" is not terrible.

No but being hit on a 3+ is along with not having a choice in Assualting is not, so you need to add a character.

A Re-roll is a Re-Roll, I have hit with around 36 out of 40 attacks with re-rolling 1s.

Anecdotal. The average increase against a target of WS 4 would be 20 out of 40 to 23.3333 out of 40. So adding the priest to give favored enemy doesn't even boost the output that much. Where's this synergy?

The priest added 16 hits and you also now get the re-roll on Damage so those 36 hits I pulled off about 30 wounds iirc.
This is not a one time thing, it happens over and over, game after game.

Does the priest let you reroll ALL misses, or just "1"s? Because that's a big difference.

Freman Bloodglaive wrote:

 Anpu42 wrote:

This is what Synergy is all about.
Look at Blood Claws, PPM they Suck, but you Attach a Wolf Priest with them and they can pull off fantactic things becouse the Wolf Priest allows them to.

Or instead of spending points on the Wolf Priest to make a substandard (compared to Grey Hunters) unit work, you can take Grey Hunters and then a divination Rune Priest or Thunderwolf Lord.

I really didn't like what Phil Kelly did with the Space Wolves. Basically, although they supposedly have a range of choices, really there're only a few options worth taking.

Rune Priests
Grey Hunters
Long Fangs

Thunderwolves as a unit are fairly overpriced for their ability, although a Wolf Lord on thunderwolf is awesome.

Anything else, including even the "legendary" thunderwolves are basically page filler.

Re-rolling 1s, if we use Blood Claws charging, 15 Blood Claws get 60 attacks, half hit for 30 hits, a sixth should be 1s, so 10 1s, re-rolling those should give 5 hits for a total of 35 hits, against marines that would be 17.5 wounds instead of 15. Is an extra 2.5 hits worth the cost of the Wolf Priest?

Statistical aberrations do happen, but those aren't something to base army list selection on.

Yes you are correct and I do play every Space Wolf Unit in the Book, but sometimes it is fun just to pull out my Blood Claws.

Trying to beck on topic again:
>I truly see no reason Black Templars can not be and Assult based Army.

The same reason meqs can't assault in general: they get shot to death before they get to assault. Or run into CC buzzsaws like SW or Daemons.

Martel732 wrote:
The same reason meqs can't assault in general: they get shot to death before they get to assault. Or run into CC buzzsaws like SW or Daemons.

But Crusaders can tool up to be Assualty with weight of numbers.

 Anpu42 wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
The same reason meqs can't assault in general: they get shot to death before they get to assault. Or run into CC buzzsaws like SW or Daemons.

But Crusaders can tool up to be Assualty with weight of numbers.

And die with weight of numbers? They aren't cheap enough to survive the onslaught of 6th ed.

Martel732 wrote:

 Anpu42 wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
The same reason meqs can't assault in general: they get shot to death before they get to assault. Or run into CC buzzsaws like SW or Daemons.

But Crusaders can tool up to be Assualty with weight of numbers.

And die with weight of numbers? They aren't cheap enough to survive the onslaught of 6th ed.

And there is a Marine unit that won't?

 Anpu42 wrote:

Martel732 wrote:

 Anpu42 wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
The same reason meqs can't assault in general: they get shot to death before they get to assault. Or run into CC buzzsaws like SW or Daemons.

But Crusaders can tool up to be Assualty with weight of numbers.

And die with weight of numbers? They aren't cheap enough to survive the onslaught of 6th ed.

And there is a Marine unit that won't?

So your argument is that BT can be tooled up to be 'Assaulty', and then you relent to the point that no MEQ units can actually survive to make it there?

And you see no problem with this?

XenosTerminus wrote:

 Anpu42 wrote:

Martel732 wrote:

 Anpu42 wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
The same reason meqs can't assault in general: they get shot to death before they get to assault. Or run into CC buzzsaws like SW or Daemons.

But Crusaders can tool up to be Assualty with weight of numbers.

And die with weight of numbers? They aren't cheap enough to survive the onslaught of 6th ed.

And there is a Marine unit that won't?

So your argument is that BT can be tooled up to be 'Assaulty', and then you relent to the point that no MEQ units can actually survive to make it there?

And you see no problem with this?

Actualy I do not agree with Martel at all, I was being sarcastic.

So who are you going to successfully footslog these templars across the field against? Other marines, maybe. The high firepower lists will shred you.

 Anpu42 wrote:

XenosTerminus wrote:

 Anpu42 wrote:

Martel732 wrote:

 Anpu42 wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
The same reason meqs can't assault in general: they get shot to death before they get to assault. Or run into CC buzzsaws like SW or Daemons.

But Crusaders can tool up to be Assualty with weight of numbers.

And die with weight of numbers? They aren't cheap enough to survive the onslaught of 6th ed.

And there is a Marine unit that won't?

So your argument is that BT can be tooled up to be 'Assaulty', and then you relent to the point that no MEQ units can actually survive to make it there?

And you see no problem with this?

Actualy I do not agree with Martel at all, I was being sarcastic.

Ah, my mistake. Sarcasm often doesn't translate well on here.

I think it's a combination of things, but 6e just hammers it home.

T4 and 3+ are no longer worth what you pay for.

There is so much AP2 and High Str large quantity of shot firepower that has been introduced into the game that marines quite frankly are not survivable anymore. It's the arms race methodology that GW has been saturating codexes with that is prmarily responsible, but also probably an issue with GW frankly overvaluing the stats entirely.

Considering Marine wargear (save the new shiny) and overall stats have remained the same for almost the entire history of the game, it is unlikely this will change anytime soon.

XenosTerminus wrote:

 Anpu42 wrote:

XenosTerminus wrote:

 Anpu42 wrote:

Martel732 wrote:

 Anpu42 wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
The same reason meqs can't assault in general: they get shot to death before they get to assault. Or run into CC buzzsaws like SW or Daemons.

But Crusaders can tool up to be Assualty with weight of numbers.

And die with weight of numbers? They aren't cheap enough to survive the onslaught of 6th ed.

And there is a Marine unit that won't?

So your argument is that BT can be tooled up to be 'Assaulty', and then you relent to the point that no MEQ units can actually survive to make it there?

And you see no problem with this?

Actualy I do not agree with Martel at all, I was being sarcastic.

Ah, my mistake. Sarcasm often doesn't translate well on here.

I think it's a combination of things, but 6e just hammers it home.

T4 and 3+ are no longer worth what you pay for.

There is so much AP2 and High Str large quantity of shot firepower that has been introduced into the game that marines quite frankly are not survivable anymore. It's the arms race methodology that GW has been saturating codexes with that is prmarily responsible, but also probably an issue with GW frankly overvaluing the stats entirely.

Considering Marine wargear (save the new shiny) and overall stats have remained the same for almost the entire history of the game, it is unlikely this will change anytime soon.

Concidering all of the other Marines [I do not count GK and Sisters as MEQs] Crusaders are in the top 3 Assualt Units, the others being Grey Hunters and Blood Claws.

The only way Templars have "weight of numbers" is if you are footslogging which is practically futile in the current ed.

None of their transports options can carry a full sized crusader unit which means they need to foot slog. (most of their options don't allow for more than a half strength crusader squad)

Any sort of transport options eliminate their number advantages. Assuming you run a force based on 5/5 units in Rhino's you may end up squeezing in one extra squad worth of troops but it's hardly a hordes type situation. Hordes are like what Orcs and Tyranids field where you can run a huge mass of of low cost troops to flood the table with. Templars certainly aren't "low cost troops" they might be slightly cheaper then other marine squads of comparable size but you pay for it with lower armor saves and they still aren't "cheap" compared to true horde lists.

Nids for example are all fleet now and even with the extra movement and huge masses of bodies they can barely reach their destination, Templars are no longer any faster than any other marines as crusader doesn't add anything to their movement it just boosts the average distance roll. Where RZ actually extended their movement range considerably, the potential of adding an additional 9 inches of movement during the opponents turn is HUGE amount of ground to cover and helps you get your squads into cc far more intact.

That was the purpose of the meat shield, to absorb the ablative damage and trigger RZ, now the meat shield really doesn't do anything to enhance the offensive capacity of the squads nor does it help bolster movements benefits like RZ previously did.

You can still play an assault force, but the days of the black tide are long gone, now you need to do it out of spamming landraiders and stormtalons which while somewhat viable but it is nothing like how they used to play nor is it unique as every chapter has simular access to those.

 paulson games wrote:
The only way Templars have "weight of numbers" is if you are footslogging which is practically futile in the current ed.

None of their transports options can carry a full sized crusader unit which means they need to foot slog. (most of their options don't allow for more than a half strength crusader squad)

Any sort of transport options eliminate their number advantages. Assuming you run a force based on 5/5 units in Rhino's you may end up squeezing in one extra squad worth of troops but it's hardly a hordes type situation. Hordes are like what Orcs and Tyranids filed where you can dozens of low cost troops to flood the table with. Templars certainly aren't "low cost troops" they might be slightly cheaper then other marine squads of comparable size but you pay for it with lower armor saves and they still aren't "cheap" compared to true horde lists.

Nids for example are all fleet now and even with the extra movement and huge masses of bodies they can barely reach their destination, Templars are no longer any faster than any other marines as crusader doesn't add anything to their movement it just boosts the average distance roll. Where RZ actually extended their movement range considerably, the potential of adding an additional 9 inches of movement during the opponents turn is HUGE amount of ground to cover and helps you get your squads into cc far more intact.

That was the purpose of the meat shield, to absorb the ablative damage and trigger RZ, now the meat shield really doesn't do anything to enhance the offensive capacity of the squads nor does it help bolster movements benefits like RZ previously did.

You can still play an assault force, but the days of the black tide are long gone, now you need to do it out of spamming landraiders and stormtalons which while somewhat viable but it is nothing like how they used to play nor is it unique as every chapter has simular access to those.

And how did rolling them into the Marine codex change any of this, it changed nothing in the long run.
The problem is both the inheret issuses with 6th vs Assualt and the Xenos.

 paulson games wrote:
The only way Templars have "weight of numbers" is if you are footslogging which is practically futile in the current ed.

None of their transports options can carry a full sized crusader unit which means they need to foot slog. (most of their options don't allow for more than a half strength crusader squad)

Any sort of transport options eliminate their number advantages. Assuming you run a force based on 5/5 units in Rhino's you may end up squeezing in one extra squad worth of troops but it's hardly a hordes type situation. Hordes are like what Orcs and Tyranids field where you can run a huge mass of of low cost troops to flood the table with. Templars certainly aren't "low cost troops" they might be slightly cheaper then other marine squads of comparable size but you pay for it with lower armor saves and they still aren't "cheap" compared to true horde lists.

Nids for example are all fleet now and even with the extra movement and huge masses of bodies they can barely reach their destination, Templars are no longer any faster than any other marines as crusader doesn't add anything to their movement it just boosts the average distance roll. Where RZ actually extended their movement range considerably, the potential of adding an additional 9 inches of movement during the opponents turn is HUGE amount of ground to cover and helps you get your squads into cc far more intact.

That was the purpose of the meat shield, to absorb the ablative damage and trigger RZ, now the meat shield really doesn't do anything to enhance the offensive capacity of the squads nor does it help bolster movements benefits like RZ previously did.

You can still play an assault force, but the days of the black tide are long gone, now you need to do it out of spamming landraiders and stormtalons which while somewhat viable but it is nothing like how they used to play nor is it unique as every chapter has simular access to those.

This. Even if you do choose to spam Land Raiders or Storm Raven's (which would leave very little room left to do much else with your list) simply as a means to deliver Crusader Squads into combat, the squads are not at full strength, so in essence you are only increasing the model count of the unit by a small amount (which is not nearly enough to make the unit drastically more killy, especially considering the extra models are Scouts).

The only way to take advantage of what Crusader Squads have to offer are to run them on foot and maxed out (which is suicide) or to min-max them and run them as shooty units like GW evidently wants you to do (since they retained that ability for whatever reason).

The Chapter was dead on arrival with the new book. Play something better, or lower your expectations on how your army will do basically.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Anpu42 wrote:

 paulson games wrote:
The only way Templars have "weight of numbers" is if you are footslogging which is practically futile in the current ed.

None of their transports options can carry a full sized crusader unit which means they need to foot slog. (most of their options don't allow for more than a half strength crusader squad)

Any sort of transport options eliminate their number advantages. Assuming you run a force based on 5/5 units in Rhino's you may end up squeezing in one extra squad worth of troops but it's hardly a hordes type situation. Hordes are like what Orcs and Tyranids filed where you can dozens of low cost troops to flood the table with. Templars certainly aren't "low cost troops" they might be slightly cheaper then other marine squads of comparable size but you pay for it with lower armor saves and they still aren't "cheap" compared to true horde lists.

Nids for example are all fleet now and even with the extra movement and huge masses of bodies they can barely reach their destination, Templars are no longer any faster than any other marines as crusader doesn't add anything to their movement it just boosts the average distance roll. Where RZ actually extended their movement range considerably, the potential of adding an additional 9 inches of movement during the opponents turn is HUGE amount of ground to cover and helps you get your squads into cc far more intact.

That was the purpose of the meat shield, to absorb the ablative damage and trigger RZ, now the meat shield really doesn't do anything to enhance the offensive capacity of the squads nor does it help bolster movements benefits like RZ previously did.

You can still play an assault force, but the days of the black tide are long gone, now you need to do it out of spamming landraiders and stormtalons which while somewhat viable but it is nothing like how they used to play nor is it unique as every chapter has simular access to those.

And how did rolling them into the Marine codex change any of this, it changed nothing in the long run.
The problem is both the inheret issuses with 6th vs Assualt and the Xenos.

It's not so much an issue with 6th edition as it is some of the more potent shooting armies.

Black Tide was more effective with the old book even with 6th edition rules- Righteous Zeal really did help a lot to bridge the gap with your footsloggers. All GW had to do was fix that rule, but they scrapped it instead.

The problem isn't inherent to them being included in the codex, it's that they chopped away the core rules that made Templars functional. RZ being the main one, RZ is practically the soul of what defined the Templar playstyle and that was dropped completely. It'd be like Blood Angels losing access to assault troops and fast vehicles, or Space Wolves losing their sagas and priests.


Then you have removal of key fluff elements like the ability to include psykers and loss of holy and sacred relics it really alters how the force is seen as a unique entity. You lose not only mechanics that make them unique but you also lose large parts of the story elements and organization so it now longer feels like Templars. Templars aren't entirely about assaulting, there's a lot more to it which the codex waters down or skips over entirely which is why people are complaining about how their "feel" has been ruined.

It'd be like if they squeezed Space Wolves and Dark Angels into the same codex and suddenly they had all the same units and were best of friends that could be battle brothers. It'd have many players upset because part of what defines those chapters are that their views and organization are greatly opposed to each other thematically. It's much like loyalist chapters openly embracing and working with chaos chapters. Granted players can always adhere to building a force in line with how the older codex functioned but it doesn't correct the fact that they had almost everything about their rules and fluff restructured so they could be included in codex marine.

Those changes just don't work, Templars were quite unique before but now they are just vanilla marines who wear crosses.

"It'd be like Blood Angels losing access to assault troops and fast vehicles"

I'm sure GW will do this.

 paulson games wrote:
The problem isn't inherent to them being included in the codex, it's that they chopped away the core rules that made Templars functional. RZ being the core one.


Then you have removal of key fluff elements like the ability to include psykers and loss of holy and sacred relics it really alters how the force is seen as a unique entity. You lose not only mechanics that make them unique but you also lose large parts of the story elements and organization so it now longer feels like Templars. Templars aren't entirely about assaulting, there's a lot more to it which the codex waters down or skips over entirely which is why people are complaining about how their "feel" has been ruined.

It'd be like if they squeezed Space Wolves and Dark Angels into the same codex and suddenly they had all the same units and were best of friends that could be battle brothers. It'd have many players upset because part of what defines those chapters are that their views and organization are greatly opposed to each other thematically. It's much like loyalist chapters openly embracing and working with chaos chapters. Granted players can always adhere to building a force in line with how the older codex functioned but it doesn't correct the fact that they had almost everything about their rules and fluff restructured so they could be included in codex marine.

If both MY Space Marines [Space Wolves and Dark Arngels] got rolled into the Space Marine Codex I would be disapointed, but I would not Shelve them. I would make them MINE. I would play them MY way as I see them. I would not let any one thake them from ME. I have Survived 6 Editions of My Space Wolves Changing and I will Survive the next 6 Editions.
Marines Adapt and Overcome!

"Marines Adapt and Overcome!"

Evidently not in 6th edition.

I see two issues with this thread. First is that people are still comparing old to new. There isn't a single assault oriented army that performs as well in 6th as it did in pretty much every edition before it. 6th edition is just not assault friendly. Period. Every assault army has the same issues. How do you get across the table without being shot to death?

Second, and I'll agree that I've not investigated this but is there another chapter listed in the Marine Codex that can put together a better assault list using their own chapter tactics than the BT can? If not then Congrats you are the assault powerhouse of the SM book. Use what tools you do have instead of that which you think you aught to have. Because it ultimately all your doing is wish listing at this point. And that never wins games, but maximizing what strengths you do have does.

It's really hard to say which marine chapter is the best at direct assault. SW are the lords of counter assault, which is the only truly relevant kind now.

All the marines are pretty bad at direct assault now.

 Jayden63 wrote:
I see two issues with this thread. First is that people are still comparing old to new. There isn't a single assault oriented army that performs as well in 6th as it did in pretty much every edition before it. 6th edition is just not assault friendly. Period. Every assault army has the same issues. How do you get across the table without being shot to death?

Second, and I'll agree that I've not investigated this but is there another chapter listed in the Marine Codex that can put together a better assault list using their own chapter tactics than the BT can? If not then Congrats you are the assault powerhouse of the SM book. Use what tools you do have instead of that which you think you aught to have. Because it ultimately all your doing is wish listing at this point. And that never wins games, but maximizing what strengths you do have does.

^This

 Anpu42 wrote:

 Jayden63 wrote:
I see two issues with this thread. First is that people are still comparing old to new. There isn't a single assault oriented army that performs as well in 6th as it did in pretty much every edition before it. 6th edition is just not assault friendly. Period. Every assault army has the same issues. How do you get across the table without being shot to death?

Second, and I'll agree that I've not investigated this but is there another chapter listed in the Marine Codex that can put together a better assault list using their own chapter tactics than the BT can? If not then Congrats you are the assault powerhouse of the SM book. Use what tools you do have instead of that which you think you aught to have. Because it ultimately all your doing is wish listing at this point. And that never wins games, but maximizing what strengths you do have does.

^This

So what's your plan for our Black Templar players to "maximize their strengths"?

Martel732 wrote:

 Anpu42 wrote:

 Jayden63 wrote:
I see two issues with this thread. First is that people are still comparing old to new. There isn't a single assault oriented army that performs as well in 6th as it did in pretty much every edition before it. 6th edition is just not assault friendly. Period. Every assault army has the same issues. How do you get across the table without being shot to death?

Second, and I'll agree that I've not investigated this but is there another chapter listed in the Marine Codex that can put together a better assault list using their own chapter tactics than the BT can? If not then Congrats you are the assault powerhouse of the SM book. Use what tools you do have instead of that which you think you aught to have. Because it ultimately all your doing is wish listing at this point. And that never wins games, but maximizing what strengths you do have does.

^This

So what's your plan for our Black Templar players to "maximize their strengths"?

For me experment and see what works and not discarding stuff just becouse it looks bad on papaer.

 Jayden63 wrote:
I see two issues with this thread. First is that people are still comparing old to new. There isn't a single assault oriented army that performs as well in 6th as it did in pretty much every edition before it. 6th edition is just not assault friendly. Period. Every assault army has the same issues. How do you get across the table without being shot to death?
.

chaos demons were rather assaulty in 5th and they are still assaulty and good in 6th, they are like the top 3 armies alongside eldar and tau.

Makumba wrote:

 Jayden63 wrote:
I see two issues with this thread. First is that people are still comparing old to new. There isn't a single assault oriented army that performs as well in 6th as it did in pretty much every edition before it. 6th edition is just not assault friendly. Period. Every assault army has the same issues. How do you get across the table without being shot to death?
.

chaos demons were rather assaulty in 5th and they are still assaulty and good in 6th, they are like the top 3 armies alongside eldar and tau.

Because they have a single broken combo.

 Jayden63 wrote:
I see two issues with this thread. First is that people are still comparing old to new. There isn't a single assault oriented army that performs as well in 6th as it did in pretty much every edition before it. 6th edition is just not assault friendly. Period. Every assault army has the same issues. How do you get across the table without being shot to death?

Second, and I'll agree that I've not investigated this but is there another chapter listed in the Marine Codex that can put together a better assault list using their own chapter tactics than the BT can? If not then Congrats you are the assault powerhouse of the SM book. Use what tools you do have instead of that which you think you aught to have. Because it ultimately all your doing is wish listing at this point. And that never wins games, but maximizing what strengths you do have does.

Amen !

Templars have always been about the charge, not just in the sense of additional attacks but in their threat range.

Right now why they suffer is due to the lack of mobility, namely the loss of righteous Zeal that's 90% of why Templars no longer work as an assault force. Currently their maximum threat range is 30-50% less compared to what it used to be. Previously you could cover half the table in 2 turns of movement and it was on par with the pace of vehicles, now it takes 4+ turns to cover that same distance.

Under the previous codex you could optimize your RZ movement in a squad with the chaplain's cenobytes which are no longer an option for including and mixing into squads. A Chaplain led squad could be as many as 24 models while the quad now can only number only 21 models. That's a noticeable reduction in attacks, fewer wounds to soak fire with and they move at half their previous speed. Hellbrecht could also previously boost that same unit to 30 models and added a lot more additional PW attacks.


Current ed movement of Templar infantry

end of turn 1
total distance covered 6-12"
1 standard movement + 1 random run distance

end of turn 2
total distance covered 14-24"
2 standard movement +2 random run distance (or 1 run +1 charge)




Previous codex movement of Templar infantry
end of turn 1
total movement 12"
standard movement + run

additional righteous zeal movement
3-9"
total 15-21"

end of turn 2
total movement distance 27-33
2 standard movement + RZ + 1 Run +1 Charge


alternate turn 2 assuming 2 rounds of RZ w no charge
total movement distance 30-48"

2 standard movement +2 run movement + 2 RZ movement



The changes to assault in 6th are not the only reason Templars have gotten even more lackluster, their mobility has been largely stripped from them meaning they have to survive an extra 2 rounds of fire in an edition that is ruled by ranged combat. Their core strength of being able to get a functional squad into assault range has been gutted by removing RZ.



Also of note Templar bikes could previously run 3 power weapons in their unit, a death star unit of bikes led by a chaplain and techmarine was amazingly killy and fast. Those added up to be 9 extra PW attacks on the charge (and losing the 10th attack from the old techmarine), while not a focal point of the army losing it still sucks as it was uber buff unit in assault.

 Jayden63 wrote:
I see two issues with this thread. First is that people are still comparing old to new. There isn't a single assault oriented army that performs as well in 6th as it did in pretty much every edition before it. 6th edition is just not assault friendly. Period. Every assault army has the same issues. How do you get across the table without being shot to death?

Second, and I'll agree that I've not investigated this but is there another chapter listed in the Marine Codex that can put together a better assault list using their own chapter tactics than the BT can? If not then Congrats you are the assault powerhouse of the SM book. Use what tools you do have instead of that which you think you aught to have. Because it ultimately all your doing is wish listing at this point. And that never wins games, but maximizing what strengths you do have does.

No, BT do not have the best Chapter Tactics for assault. Hell the Iron Hands with IWND and 6+ FNP are better for assault than the BT because the BT Chapter Tactics are laughably bad. Raven Guard are better because of the ability to scout, get your guys across the board, and use their jump packs in movement and assault. BT get Rending in challenges, useless as most units in challenges will have a weapon that ignores armor or be horrible out classed, and Crusader. Crusader is good but it is...well why not just give Crusader Squads the CRUSADER special rule?

The problem is that BT are supposed to be an assault based marine chapter, C:SM has piss poor assault viability even excluding the fact that 6th is all about shooting. The problem with being rolled into the C:SM is that BT will NEVER be assault viable again because the codex is always going to be written for every other chapter and all of the other chapters are about balance. That is why BT DESERVED their own codex because they deviate so much from the Codex Astrates and they are SUPPOSED to be an assault army. Even if assault sucks in 6th, I would rather see them have their own codex with an assault focus than be wrapped into a codex that is designed to be shooty.

Arbiter_Shade wrote:

 Jayden63 wrote:
I see two issues with this thread. First is that people are still comparing old to new. There isn't a single assault oriented army that performs as well in 6th as it did in pretty much every edition before it. 6th edition is just not assault friendly. Period. Every assault army has the same issues. How do you get across the table without being shot to death?

Second, and I'll agree that I've not investigated this but is there another chapter listed in the Marine Codex that can put together a better assault list using their own chapter tactics than the BT can? If not then Congrats you are the assault powerhouse of the SM book. Use what tools you do have instead of that which you think you aught to have. Because it ultimately all your doing is wish listing at this point. And that never wins games, but maximizing what strengths you do have does.

No, BT do not have the best Chapter Tactics for assault. Hell the Iron Hands with IWND and 6+ FNP are better for assault than the BT because the BT Chapter Tactics are laughably bad. Raven Guard are better because of the ability to scout, get your guys across the board, and use their jump packs in movement and assault. BT get Rending in challenges, useless as most units in challenges will have a weapon that ignores armor or be horrible out classed, and Crusader. Crusader is good but it is...well why not just give Crusader Squads the CRUSADER special rule?

The problem is that BT are supposed to be an assault based marine chapter, C:SM has piss poor assault viability even excluding the fact that 6th is all about shooting. The problem with being rolled into the C:SM is that BT will NEVER be assault viable again because the codex is always going to be written for every other chapter and all of the other chapters are about balance. That is why BT DESERVED their own codex because they deviate so much from the Codex Astrates and they are SUPPOSED to be an assault army. Even if assault sucks in 6th, I would rather see them have their own codex with an assault focus than be wrapped into a codex that is designed to be shooty.

No, BT were capable of being a viable melee army in Codex: Space Marines, it's just that GW decided to nerf a 9 years old Codex instead of giving it the tools needed to perform its job.

1) How was it nerfed?
2) What were the tools it needs to to its 'job'?

I do not see nerfs when I look at this book. I see Crusaders dropping by 2pts, and then receiving grenades and a Sergeant for free. In fact I see price cuts to just about every single unit. I see RZ being removed from 'Ld8 check every turn for every unit getting shot' into a reliable Run boost. What it lacks in raw distance, is more than made up in sheer controllability. You have been given a swathe of new assault units, price cuts and new weapon options for the existing, and then a collection of assault transports to deliver them.

The one and only point I can ever see that might constitute a nerf, is that Righteous Zeal was swapped for Crusader. This is a nerf in the sense that your uncontrollable, wildly unreliable but potentially longer-distance movement has been replaced with something you can control.

Second, what do you need to get a mob of 20 foot infantry into combat in enough numbers that they can actually achieve something?
Do they need to be cheaper, and if so how do you propose they are cheapened? Do you make them faster because wizards did it and your Marines are especially long-legged, or do you make your Power Armour the best Power Armour to the extent that running forwards is a viable strategy?

As has been said many times before, you have a Marine army, and it has the tools to get units into assault. What it does not provide is the tool to get 60+ slow, infantry-movement into assault in large numbers, and I do not see why this is at all surprising.
If you want to assault, use your fast elements, use your transports and use units that can actually play the 6th Ed assault game. Do not take it as a personal attack when your infantry are being shot, in much the same way that you should not expect a Green Tide to work without KFF and Lootas.

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:

 Dozer Blades wrote:
I don't think Templars ever really deserve their own codex being a successor chapter. Salamanders or Imperial Fists are much more deserving.

Second Founding's the earliest any Chapter's existed. Prior to that both the Imperial Fists (Chapter) and the Black Templars were part of the Imperial Fists Legion. The Legion is not the same as the Chapter.

A Blood Angel is a Blood Angel... The original chapters are not successors. So in fact they are very much the same. Of course everything changes over time but that doesn't make them different.

 Dozer Blades wrote:

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:

 Dozer Blades wrote:
I don't think Templars ever really deserve their own codex being a successor chapter. Salamanders or Imperial Fists are much more deserving.

Second Founding's the earliest any Chapter's existed. Prior to that both the Imperial Fists (Chapter) and the Black Templars were part of the Imperial Fists Legion. The Legion is not the same as the Chapter.

A Blood Angel is a Blood Angel... The original chapters are not successors. So in fact they are very much the same. Of course everything changes over time but that doesn't make them different.

The fluff is rewritten so BT are a founding chapter, do you all of a sudden think they deserve their own codex? It is a ridiculous argument to say that first founding chapters are more deserving than second founding because it is all arbitrary.

No it's not. They are a cast off dreg of Imperial Fists lead by Sigsimundus who was a first class duff.

. That is why BT DESERVED their own codex because they deviate so much from the Codex Astrates and they are SUPPOSED to be an assault army. Even if assault sucks in 6th, I would rather see them have their own codex with an assault focus than be wrapped into a codex that is designed to be shooty.

So they are an assault based army.

They deviate how much exactly?

Do they deviate more then a Khorne based army?

Do they deviate more then an Exodite army?

Do they deviate more then Catachan army?

Do they deviate more then a Kroot army?

Please tell me why SM deserve another codex again? Even before Chaos? Before Eldar? Before even IG or Tau?

They don't "deserve" a thing.

 ZebioLizard2 wrote:

. That is why BT DESERVED their own codex because they deviate so much from the Codex Astrates and they are SUPPOSED to be an assault army. Even if assault sucks in 6th, I would rather see them have their own codex with an assault focus than be wrapped into a codex that is designed to be shooty.

So they are an assault based army.

They deviate how much exactly?

Do they deviate more then a Khorne based army?

Do they deviate more then an Exodite army?

Do they deviate more then Catachan army?

Do they deviate more then a Kroot army?

Please tell me why SM deserve another codex again? Even before Chaos? Before Eldar? Before even IG or Tau? Heck even the Iron Hands has more identity then Black Templar.

They don't "deserve" a thing.

They should be getting one of the Suplement Codex like all of the other,

I can't wait to see Anpu42 moving to Frown Town when GW brings around the new SW codex and decides to Templar-ize it by nerfing and eliminating all their special rules.


I feel bad for the Templar players they got a very short stick and would have been better off not getting update at all.

 stanman wrote:
I can't wait to see Anpu42 moving to Frown Town when GW brings around the new SW codex and decides to Templar-ize it by nerfing and eliminating all their special rules.


I feel bad for the Templar players they got a very short stick and would have been better off not getting update at all.

As I said earlyer, I will still play them
The only way for me to be sad right now is for them to get rid of Bjorn and double Special Weapons with Grey Hunters. I could see the first, but not the Second.
As for a not I have been playing them since there were Grey Marines in the Rouge Trader Days.

 Dozer Blades wrote:
No it's not. They are a cast off dreg of Imperial Fists lead by Sigsimundus who was a first class duff.

Well someone hates the BT for some reason. Strange.

Anyway, this thread was not about whether or not the BT deserve their own book or not. It's about how the BT are now that they are in the codex. And I agree with Jayden63. There are tools in the SM codex that make Black Templars playable. Again, there are not any obvious cheesey builds, but that's what makes it fun to play BT. They aren't overpowered, they go out against all odds with the faith of the emperor and of Dorn to win. You use the tools you were given and take home the victory anyway!

Drop pod in some honor guard after a dread/sternguard alpha strike, and support that with a couple landraiders or las/plas squads. Sprinkle in some AA and you have yourself a melee-focused playable army.

BT originally came out in the Armaggeddon codex back in third. There were also three other armies released in the same book. Kult of Speed being my favorite. It was a good start but like the other three armies in the book, it was more of an insert existing army +1 than a full on Army codex. Then you actually got a full codex update sometime in 4th. That was cool and all and you had some fun toys added in. Now your rolled back into the marine book, pretty much where you started. Your not like the DA, SW, and BA who have had their own codexs since 2nd ed. BT have pretty much just returned home. I'm not one of those all marines in one book haters or supporters, so I myself don't care, but I can see why BT players would and for that you have my sympathy of the situation. However, you can either whine about it for the next 4 years or look at what you do have and charge forward. Maybe its the return of the 2-3 LRC lists that popped up when BTs were first released. I really don't know. Just how bad of an assault unit is a full unit of assault Centurions lead by a tricked out Chapter Master in an LRC? Expensive point wise, sure, but thats why you have other LRCs running cover full of other cheap choppy bits. Will it work? I donno know, I'm in no position to try. I do know people laugh at my 15 man blood claw unit on paper until it hits their lines at full strength thanks to the LRC they were riding in.

However, just a little anecdote for your loss of HTH prowess. I also play Orks. In third thanks to the Waagh special ability my Nobs struck before Marines and orks with marines. With the 4th ed codex, I lost my Waagh and gained furious charge so now my nobs now strike with marines and my boys after marines. With 6th edition and the change to furious charge, my Nobs now strike after marines and the orks now strike simultaneous with Necrons and Tau for gods sake. Since the game is all about rolling as many dice as possible, the +1 strength is lost to all of the lost attacks for every boy/nob who is killed before they ever get to swing. It only took two books to completely gut ork CC effectiveness (we gained a ton of shooting to compensate). We have lost so much that made playing Kult of Speed fun and in truth its now hard to play an effective KOS style army. So like I said, I know your pain a bit, but my trukks are still out there and my wagons rolling forward.

Things change and you just have to change with it.

 Dozer Blades wrote:

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:

 Dozer Blades wrote:
I don't think Templars ever really deserve their own codex being a successor chapter. Salamanders or Imperial Fists are much more deserving.

Second Founding's the earliest any Chapter's existed. Prior to that both the Imperial Fists (Chapter) and the Black Templars were part of the Imperial Fists Legion. The Legion is not the same as the Chapter.

A Blood Angel is a Blood Angel... The original chapters are not successors. So in fact they are very much the same. Of course everything changes over time but that doesn't make them different.

Deploying standard AlmightyWalrus response:

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:
Crimson Fists and Black Templars are every bit as much "First Founding" as the Imperial Fists Chapter. The fact that there was a Legion with the name of one of them doesn't mean that the Imperial Fists Chapter can claim all the history of the Heresy as theirs and no one else's. The Legions no longer exist; the fact that some Chapters have the same names as the non-existant Legions doesn't matter.

As an example, let's pretend that the Imperial Fists pre-heresy Legion was called the Über Legion. Once the Heresy resolves, they split into the Imperial Fists, Crimson Fists, Black Templars and the Soul Drinkers. Why would any of these Chapters have a greater claim to status and recognition than any of the others?

The Imperial Fists Legion is the Imperial Fists Chapter just as much as it is the Black Templars Chapter or the Crimson Fists Chapter. The Chapters of the Second Founding ARE the Original Chapters, because there were no Chapters before that.

Black Templars getting rolling into the codex is the very last problem of the army. That part was actually done in a pretty good manner, they still get access to their 2.5 named characters, kept their unique cursader squads, kept the fluff of distrusting librarians and got access to a boatload of new units in the process.

Getting an utterly worthless chapter tactics is the problem. Black Templars needed thier chapter tactics to offset the inherit disadvantage of assault armies in some way. What they got is pretty much nothing.

 Jidmah wrote:
Black Templars getting rolling into the codex is the very last problem of the army. That part was actually done in a pretty good manner, they still get access to their 2.5 named characters, kept their unique cursader squads, kept the fluff of distrusting librarians and got access to a boatload of new units in the process.

Getting an utterly worthless chapter tactics is the problem. Black Templars needed thier chapter tactics to offset the inherit disadvantage of assault armies in some way. What they got is pretty much nothing.

Agreed, although I'd argue that the Special Characters could use better rules too. Helbrecht's playable, but the other two are just plain bad.

Yep, I'd give Grimaldus a "nice try" though, if he were cheaper and his servitors a little less useless, he'd be a nice option.
EC is just a worthless piece of finecast.

I still wonder why Grimaldus doesn't have artificer armor though. Doesn't the Battle for Hellsreach start with him getting his mentor's armor?

 Jidmah wrote:
Yep, I'd give Grimaldus a "nice try" though, if he were cheaper and his servitors a little less useless, he'd be a nice option.
EC is just a worthless piece of finecast.

I still wonder why Grimaldus doesn't have artificer armor though. Doesn't the Battle for Hellsreach start with him getting his mentor's armor?

Apparently the High Chaplain of the Black Templars goes into battle wielding just another Power Maul and in Power Armour...

 Jidmah wrote:
Black Templars getting rolling into the codex is the very last problem of the army. That part was actually done in a pretty good manner, they still get access to their 2.5 named characters, kept their unique cursader squads, kept the fluff of distrusting librarians and got access to a boatload of new units in the process.

Getting an utterly worthless chapter tactics is the problem. Black Templars needed thier chapter tactics to offset the inherit disadvantage of assault armies in some way. What they got is pretty much nothing.

This, pretty much. Really though, the biggest issue is not so much the Codex but what 6th edition did to assault units/armies. Maybe the army will actually be playable when the game gets updated (although I kind of doubt it)... not really all that positive I know, but my Wolves and Nids are sad about it as well.

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:

 Jidmah wrote:
Yep, I'd give Grimaldus a "nice try" though, if he were cheaper and his servitors a little less useless, he'd be a nice option.
EC is just a worthless piece of finecast.

I still wonder why Grimaldus doesn't have artificer armor though. Doesn't the Battle for Hellsreach start with him getting his mentor's armor?

Apparently the High Chaplain of the Black Templars goes into battle wielding just another Power Maul and in Power Armour...

Which is really amusing, considering that this "just another Power Maul" has its own pillar inside the artifact chamber of Helbrecht's Flagship

On the subject of second founding chapters:

http://warhammer40k.wikia.com/wiki/Second_Founding

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:

 Jidmah wrote:
Yep, I'd give Grimaldus a "nice try" though, if he were cheaper and his servitors a little less useless, he'd be a nice option.
EC is just a worthless piece of finecast.

I still wonder why Grimaldus doesn't have artificer armor though. Doesn't the Battle for Hellsreach start with him getting his mentor's armor?

Apparently the High Chaplain of the Black Templars goes into battle wielding just another Power Maul and in Power Armour...

Although in his defense, the Ultramarine’s Master of Sanctity, Chaplain Cassius, is also packing a bog-standard crozius and suit of PA.

Chaplains: we don’t need fancy toys and armor; we’re just going to kill you with our unbridled hate and our symbols of office.

 Dozer Blades wrote:
On the subject of second founding chapters:

http://warhammer40k.wikia.com/wiki/Second_Founding

I'm not even going to look at the link; Warhammer wikia allows fan-created stuff as canon (and yes, I know there's no "true" canon). It lacks integrity.

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:

 Jidmah wrote:
Black Templars getting rolling into the codex is the very last problem of the army. That part was actually done in a pretty good manner, they still get access to their 2.5 named characters, kept their unique cursader squads, kept the fluff of distrusting librarians and got access to a boatload of new units in the process.

Getting an utterly worthless chapter tactics is the problem. Black Templars needed thier chapter tactics to offset the inherit disadvantage of assault armies in some way. What they got is pretty much nothing.

Agreed, although I'd argue that the Special Characters could use better rules too. Helbrecht's playable, but the other two are just plain bad.

So basically, you're the Thousand Sons of the codex.

Eh, could be worse, at least your more playable then that, even Ahriman is worse then all your SC's.

 Jidmah wrote:
Black Templars getting rolling into the codex is the very last problem of the army. That part was actually done in a pretty good manner, they still get access to their 2.5 named characters, kept their unique cursader squads, kept the fluff of distrusting librarians and got access to a boatload of new units in the process.

Getting an utterly worthless chapter tactics is the problem. Black Templars needed thier chapter tactics to offset the inherit disadvantage of assault armies in some way. What they got is pretty much nothing.

Agree, but they updated to fluff about psykers. They love psykers now which doesn't explain why they don't have a librarians. I would also consider the characters about just as bad as the chapter tactics as well.

Wikia is no less valid than your opinion.

 Dozer Blades wrote:
Wikia is no less valid than your opinion.

You linked to it and then didn't say anything. I'm backing my argument up with logic. You're not making any sense at all. I'm not using my opinion as a source to back my opinion up.

The First Founding Chapters still use the same colours and heraldry as the original Legion. They usually are based on the same homeworld and are rooted in the same culture and traditions as the original Legion.

The Second Founding Chapters started form scratch. They pick new colurs, new heraldry (even if that may be inspired by some older conventions), new homeworld, and will invariably also develop their own culture and traditions.

Thus the First Founding Chapter for all intends and purposes is still the originally created Legion, just reduced in size, while the Second Founding Chapters are entirely new entities. The history of the Imperial Fists Chapter dates back to the beginnings of the Great Crusade. The history of the Crimson Fists Chapter dates back to the end of the Scouring.

The Templars are the Fists First Company. Theyve been there all along and more than earned their spotlight. Keep an eye out for their HH stuff soon!

As far as their 40K incarnation is concerned, theyre garbage. I converted my vanilla Marines to Templars to play something a little different. Now theyre the same crap only watered down. So I sold them. Worst games I ever played.

As an Ork player, I feel your pain. BT and Orks are bros 4 lyfe, as evidenced by several posts ITT. If this game was less gak I'd have a Templars army alongside my boyz

One 'fix' I think you should consider is just playing 30k instead.

Black Tide *is* the 30k meta from what I can see, and despite being entirely marines the legion army books are really, really interesting - I'm sure one of them would be a match for the Templars, and if not, just use Black Templars old codex or SM: BT CT.

I am just trying to figure out what is so bat about the Black Templars Chapter Tactics.

 ZebioLizard2 wrote:

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:

 Jidmah wrote:
Black Templars getting rolling into the codex is the very last problem of the army. That part was actually done in a pretty good manner, they still get access to their 2.5 named characters, kept their unique cursader squads, kept the fluff of distrusting librarians and got access to a boatload of new units in the process.

Getting an utterly worthless chapter tactics is the problem. Black Templars needed thier chapter tactics to offset the inherit disadvantage of assault armies in some way. What they got is pretty much nothing.

Agreed, although I'd argue that the Special Characters could use better rules too. Helbrecht's playable, but the other two are just plain bad.

So basically, you're the Thousand Sons of the codex.

Eh, could be worse, at least your more playable then that, even Ahriman is worse then all your SC's.

eh Ahriman is under rated. people tend to focus on his lack of divination. at the end of the day though he IS a mastery 4 psyker with some reasonably good stuff.

 Anpu42 wrote:
I am just trying to figure out what is so bat about the Black Templars Chapter Tactics.

It doesn't grant a tangible asset that can be used, it merely increases the average of your running distance. The average might increase but they are still limited to 6 inches which is the same as every other marine.

Meanwhile other chapters get completely new abilities or enhancements in their tactics. For instance iron hands get regeneration or scars get an enhanced cover save making them better at something. If the second die from crusader was added to the roll rather than using the highest I think it'd actually be of benefit.

Under RZ they were able to cover huge distances which was a huge part of their signature, but with Crusader they aren't able to cover any more ground then any other chapter is capable of. They might be more consistent in that movement but it's no better in range. A crusader moves 6 inches at max just the same as everyone else but everyone else gets unique abilities or save enhancements which are actual tangible boosts.

Crusader offers no benefit on the charge either in increased range or in consistentcy so it's very limited in application compared to other tactics that will be of benefit every shooting phase,, combat phase , or when taking wounds etc.

Raven Guard for instance grants scout, 1st turn stealth, doubles their jet pack movement in two phases, and grants re-rolls in combat. That's 4 separate buffs all of which directly help them not only get into assault but also improves their fighting ability.



Adamantium Mantle is limited to being attacked by a psyker. If there are no opposing pyskers it has absolutely no benefit, meanwhile all other chapter tactic abilities can be used in virtually every game regardless of what the opponent runs as they are not limited in needing a specific type of opponent to be used.

 Anpu42 wrote:
I am just trying to figure out what is so bat about the Black Templars Chapter Tactics.

As paulson games explained in the post above mine, it doesn't actually do anything to increase melee prowess beyond the rare challenge where it actually matters (most challenges are ROFLstomps in one way or another anyway). White Scars get better at using bikes (their "thing"), Salamanders get better flame weapons and flame defenses (their "thing"), Raven Guard get sneaky and better Jump Packs (their "thing"), Ultramarines get a little bit of everything (their "thing"), Imperial Fists get the siege vibe and disciplined bolter lines (their "thing"), Templars get... rerolls in challenges? What about the rest of the Crusader Squad? Are they just scrubs who aren't specialized in close combat in any way beyond "having a chainsword"?

 Anpu42 wrote:
I am just trying to figure out what is so bat about the Black Templars Chapter Tactics.

The tactics don't DO anything?

 paulson games wrote:

 Anpu42 wrote:
I am just trying to figure out what is so bat about the Black Templars Chapter Tactics.

It doesn't grant a tangible asset that can be used; it merely increases the average of your running distance. The average might increase but they are still limited to 6 inches which is the same as every other marine.
Meanwhile other chapters get completely new abilities or enhancements in their tactics. For instance iron hands get regeneration or scars get an enhanced cover save making them better at something. If the second die from crusader was added to the roll rather than using the highest I think it'd actually be of benefit.
Under RZ they were able to cover huge distances which was a huge part of their signature, but with Crusader they aren't able to cover any more ground then any other chapter is capable of. They might be more consistent in that movement but it's no better in range. A crusader moves 6 inches at max just the same as everyone else but everyone else gets unique abilities or save enhancements which are actual tangible boosts.

>Yes that is a benefit; You can move Faster, the chance of you running 1” has been cut in half.
>So you should be as fast as Eldar?
>So the fact that you lost a Special move makes the new Move worthless?

Crusader offers no benefit on the charge either in increased range or in consistency so it's very limited in application compared to other tactics that will be of benefit every shooting phase,, combat phase , or when taking wounds etc.

>No, but your HIGH MARSHAL HELBRECHT does.
>No, but CHAPLAIN GRIMALDUS does

Raven Guard for instance grants scout, 1st turn stealth, doubles their jet pack movement in two phases, and grants re-rolls in combat. That's 4 separate buffs all of which directly help them not only get into assault but also improves their fighting ability.

>Stealth for One Turn for anything on a 25mm base basically, this does not benefit their Jump Pack equipped units, Terminators, Bikes, or Centurions.
>Yes Raven Guard gets TWO mediocre units that benefit from double Jump Pack rule.

Adamantium Mantle is limited to being attacked by a Psyker. If there are no opposing Psykers it has absolutely no benefit, meanwhile all other chapter tactic abilities can be used in virtually every game regardless of what the opponent runs as they are not limited in needing a specific type of opponent to be used.

>So, you gain no benefit for fighting Tau or other Black Templar Armies.

Let’s see what you get:
Army Wide Rules:
>Crusader: A better than average chance of Running more than 3”.
>Adamantine Will: 5+ Save vs. Psychic Save
>Accept Any Challenge, No Matter the Odds: ALL Characters have Mastercraft and Rending in Challenges.

Limited Use:
>Sweeping Advances: I+1d6+1d3 [This under Limited use because Terminators and Centurions Can Not Sweeping Advance]
>Crusader Squads: With the choice to take a Hidden Power Weapon and the ability to not have a Character within the Squad allowing you to deny the Challenge System.

What your Special Characters give you:
HIGH MARSHAL HELBRECHT
>Crusade of the Wrath: Army Wide once a game Hatred and Fleet during the Assault Phase. So Re-Rolls to Hit to go along with your Fleet.
>The lmperium's Sword: His Unit gets Furious Charge.
CHAPLAIN GRIMALDUS
>Unmatched Zeal: 6” of Fearless and Hatred.
>Rites of War: 12” LD10 for Moral Checks.
>It Will Not Die: Regeneration
THE EMPEROR' s CHAMPION
>Fearless: Fearless for the Unit he is in.
>Can now be your Warlord.

Except for maybe the Rites of War I do not see a Useless Rule. I see lots of rules that make you better at Assault than Shooting.

By that logic a character for 400 points with a Tactical Marine statline that gave one unit in your army Furious Charge would mean that you were better than someone without that Character. Grimaldus isn't an improvement to melee because he costs 185 points.

Crusader is, on average, an increase of slightly less than 1" a turn. It's useless because it barely matters.

Challenges have been dealt with already, read previous posts.

Adamantine Will is ridiculously situational, and even then not very good.

To be able to sweeping advance, you need to actually win combat first. There's nothing that helps with that reliably.

Yes, there's a lot of stuff that looks like it'd be good for melee on paper. The thing is, in practice it's more or less worthless. Further, none of the Special Characters are Chapter Tactics. You pay (too much by far) for the abilities they give you.

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:
By that logic a character for 400 points with a Tactical Marine statline that gave one unit in your army Furious Charge would mean that you were better than someone without that Character. Grimaldus isn't an improvement to melee because he costs 185 points.

Crusader is, on average, an increase of slightly less than 1" a turn. It's useless because it barely matters.

Challenges have been dealt with already, read previous posts.

Adamantine Will is ridiculously situational, and even then not very good.

To be able to sweeping advance, you need to actually win combat first. There's nothing that helps with that reliably.

Yes, there's a lot of stuff that looks like it'd be good for melee on paper. The thing is, in practice it's more or less worthless. Further, none of the Special Characters are Chapter Tactics. You pay (too much by far) for the abilities they give you.

So has any of this been put to practice. All I have seen in Mathhammer and Crying?

 Anpu42 wrote:

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:
By that logic a character for 400 points with a Tactical Marine statline that gave one unit in your army Furious Charge would mean that you were better than someone without that Character. Grimaldus isn't an improvement to melee because he costs 185 points.

Crusader is, on average, an increase of slightly less than 1" a turn. It's useless because it barely matters.

Challenges have been dealt with already, read previous posts.

Adamantine Will is ridiculously situational, and even then not very good.

To be able to sweeping advance, you need to actually win combat first. There's nothing that helps with that reliably.

Yes, there's a lot of stuff that looks like it'd be good for melee on paper. The thing is, in practice it's more or less worthless. Further, none of the Special Characters are Chapter Tactics. You pay (too much by far) for the abilities they give you.

So has any of this been put to practice. All I have seen in Mathhammer and Crying?

What army does it look like I play? Squats?

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:

 Anpu42 wrote:

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:
By that logic a character for 400 points with a Tactical Marine statline that gave one unit in your army Furious Charge would mean that you were better than someone without that Character. Grimaldus isn't an improvement to melee because he costs 185 points.

Crusader is, on average, an increase of slightly less than 1" a turn. It's useless because it barely matters.

Challenges have been dealt with already, read previous posts.

Adamantine Will is ridiculously situational, and even then not very good.

To be able to sweeping advance, you need to actually win combat first. There's nothing that helps with that reliably.

Yes, there's a lot of stuff that looks like it'd be good for melee on paper. The thing is, in practice it's more or less worthless. Further, none of the Special Characters are Chapter Tactics. You pay (too much by far) for the abilities they give you.

So has any of this been put to practice. All I have seen in Mathhammer and Crying?

What army does it look like I play? Squats?

Cool Squats!

That was not directed at you, but Black Templar Players in general.

 Anpu42 wrote:

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:
By that logic a character for 400 points with a Tactical Marine statline that gave one unit in your army Furious Charge would mean that you were better than someone without that Character. Grimaldus isn't an improvement to melee because he costs 185 points.

Crusader is, on average, an increase of slightly less than 1" a turn. It's useless because it barely matters.

Challenges have been dealt with already, read previous posts.

Adamantine Will is ridiculously situational, and even then not very good.

To be able to sweeping advance, you need to actually win combat first. There's nothing that helps with that reliably.

Yes, there's a lot of stuff that looks like it'd be good for melee on paper. The thing is, in practice it's more or less worthless. Further, none of the Special Characters are Chapter Tactics. You pay (too much by far) for the abilities they give you.

So has any of this been put to practice. All I have seen in Mathhammer and Crying?

You don't always need to play with something to know it is horribly overcosted. Example: Sanguinary Guard from BA. Of course, eventually, I did play with them and they died like little bitches to plasma vets just as I knew they would.

Martel732 wrote:

 Anpu42 wrote:

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:
By that logic a character for 400 points with a Tactical Marine statline that gave one unit in your army Furious Charge would mean that you were better than someone without that Character. Grimaldus isn't an improvement to melee because he costs 185 points.

Crusader is, on average, an increase of slightly less than 1" a turn. It's useless because it barely matters.

Challenges have been dealt with already, read previous posts.

Adamantine Will is ridiculously situational, and even then not very good.

To be able to sweeping advance, you need to actually win combat first. There's nothing that helps with that reliably.

Yes, there's a lot of stuff that looks like it'd be good for melee on paper. The thing is, in practice it's more or less worthless. Further, none of the Special Characters are Chapter Tactics. You pay (too much by far) for the abilities they give you.

So has any of this been put to practice. All I have seen in Mathhammer and Crying?

You don't always need to play with something to know it is horribly overcosted. Example: Sanguinary Guard from BA. Of course, eventually, I did play with them and they died like little bitches to plasma vets just as I knew they would.

Ok, I like to use a scientific approach to things. Math can tell you what the result should be.
Once is a Fluke
Twice is Coincidence
Three times is proof

In the case of warhammer 40K, math is completely predictive over a large number of samples. I don't need to use the Sanguinary Guard to know they suck. Their pts/W ratio is far too low. I can use previous experience to be predictive and fit that with the math.

Martel732 wrote:
In the case of warhammer 40K, math is completely predictive over a large number of samples. I don't need to use the Sanguinary Guard to know they suck. Their pts/W ratio is far too low. I can use previous experience to be predictive and fit that with the math.

In you local Meta as you have Described it, Yes.
In my Local Meta 2+ Save units do real well.
So both of our data is Crorrect and Wrong at the same time, that is why I like to head what others are saying.

Does plasma not exist in your meta? If not, that's not a very representative meta.

I'm assuming a certain level of skill at list building in my predictions. 2+ saves without gimmicks in general are garbage in 6th edition.

Martel732 wrote:
Does plasma not exist in your meta? If not, that's not a very representative meta.

I'm assuming a certain level of skill at list building in my predictions. 2+ saves without gimmicks in general are garbage in 6th edition.

Yes, I run Plasma SPAM List and my other opponent uses Melta/Las-Cannon SPAM.
We also don't Run around the battlefield in the open. We use Terain and Vehicles for cover. I usaly can get withing 12" of what I want to take out and him the same.

I have been looking at the Black Templars and what I think they are capable of and will give them a try a few time when I get the chance to see if my Theories are Correct/Partialy-Correct/Wrong.

If you run plasma spam and you think 2+ saves are good, I just don't know what to say to that. Even if you gave Sanguinary Guard cover, which BA can generate on demand btw, so I don't give a feth about about the table, a 5+ cover save on a 40pt/W model is AWFUL.

Martel732 wrote:
If you run plasma spam and you think 2+ saves are good, I just don't know what to say to that. Even if you gave Sanguinary Guard cover, which BA can generate on demand btw, so I don't give a feth about about the table, a 5+ cover save on a 40pt/W model is AWFUL.

Remember Rule #1: there is always an exception to the Rule.

You can’t hit what you can’t see.

I don't need 2+ armor if I'm relying on LOS blocking terrain. In fact, I don't need any armor in that case, so why on earth would I pay for the 2+ armor?

What about tables that have little or no LOS blocking terrain? Do you just refuse to play?

Martel732 wrote:
I don't need 2+ armor if I'm relying on LOS blocking terrain. In fact, I don't need any armor in that case, so why on earth would I pay for the 2+ armor?

Becouse sometines you have to leave the cover. An assualt from behined a building using my Jump Packs to get within 5"-7" and then Assualt. The odds of being hit be enough Plamsa to whipe out the squad are slim to none.

What about tables that have little or no LOS blocking terrain? Do you just refuse to play?

I play the game diffrently.
We just blast the out of each other and still have fun.

I adapt and overcome
This does not mean I always win, what it means I look at what is going on and still try to win and have fun using what the Lemon Tree Gives Me.

 Anpu42 wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
I don't need 2+ armor if I'm relying on LOS blocking terrain. In fact, I don't need any armor in that case, so why on earth would I pay for the 2+ armor?

Becouse sometines you have to leave the cover. An assualt from behined a building using my Jump Packs to get within 5"-7" and then Assualt. The odds of being hit be enough Plamsa to whipe out the squad are slim to none.

What about tables that have little or no LOS blocking terrain? Do you just refuse to play?

I play the game diffrently.
We just blast the out of each other and still have fun.

I adapt and overcome
This does not mean I always win, what it means I look at what is going on and still try to win and have fun using what the Lemon Tree Gives Me.

I think at this point you are just trolling.

Plenty of BT players have provided their personal experience and provided countless examples of why BT just dont cut it (from a Chapter Tactics and BT Playstyle Perspective) with the new book, myself included.

It IS that bad. We have seen it and experienced it first-hand.

It's easy for someone to say 'I just adapt and overcome' when they play an army that isn't largely useless on the tabletop. It's pretty telling when you realize there is hardly anyone talking about BT (save BT players lamenting what we once had), or most BT players have sold their army/play counts-as Templar for a more effective Chapter.

No, I just think he plays in a group that doesn't pay particular attention to how good units are and so the whole mess evens out.

Martel732 wrote:
No, I just think he plays in a group that doesn't pay particular attention to how good units are and so the whole mess evens out.

That is how the demographic of our group analyzes things as well. Unless your opponent purposely brings terrible lists or makes a ton of mistakes, playing BT as intended doesn't work.

XenosTerminus wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
No, I just think he plays in a group that doesn't pay particular attention to how good units are and so the whole mess evens out.

That is how the demographic of our group analyzes things as well. Unless your opponent purposely brings terrible lists or makes a ton of mistakes, playing BT as intended doesn't work.

I would agree. I mean, BT shoot decently, but I don't think that's what BT players are looking for. Hell, I turned the BA into a shooting list, but it's still lame.

Martel732 wrote:

XenosTerminus wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
No, I just think he plays in a group that doesn't pay particular attention to how good units are and so the whole mess evens out.

That is how the demographic of our group analyzes things as well. Unless your opponent purposely brings terrible lists or makes a ton of mistakes, playing BT as intended doesn't work.

I would agree. I mean, BT shoot decently, but I don't think that's what BT players are looking for. Hell, I turned the BA into a shooting list, but it's still lame.

Yep. That is how it was in 5th/early 6th as well- the new book hasn't changed the fact BT has been more effective as a shooty army, it's just that we hoped GW would actually give us Chapter Tactics in order to make a reasonably effective CC army (which we could do before, even if shooting was better).

Martel732 wrote:
No, I just think he plays in a group that doesn't pay particular attention to how good units are and so the whole mess evens out.

More or less correct.
We play the Units we like to Play. Not becouse they are the Best. It is a diffrent Meta, that does not make me a Toll or a Bad Player, just Diffrent.

As for the "Proof" of Black Templars are bad all I have seen is.
"I tryed them and they Sucked."
No reasons as to why from experiance, No BatReps, No Examples, just "They Suck"" or "They Can't Assualt Anymore!"

I whant to know why, not be told "They Just Do Becouse They Can't Do What They Used To Do!"

I don't need to physically play them to tell you from my experience with BA that the BT will be shot to bits just like BA if they try to run as an assault army.

Martel732 wrote:
I don't need to physically play them to tell you from my experience with BA that the BT will be shot to bits just like BA if they try to run as an assault army.

You are one of the few who has told me why your Marines Die in droves.

 Anpu42 wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
I don't need to physically play them to tell you from my experience with BA that the BT will be shot to bits just like BA if they try to run as an assault army.

You are one of the few who has told me why your Marines Die in droves.

It isn't too hard to find threads complaining about no cover ion accelerators. Or taking 7 serpent shields to the face very turn. Or bale drakes. Or plasma vets. (Older threads, but they still wreck meq face)

 Anpu42 wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
No, I just think he plays in a group that doesn't pay particular attention to how good units are and so the whole mess evens out.

More or less correct.
We play the Units we like to Play. Not becouse they are the Best. It is a diffrent Meta, that does not make me a Toll or a Bad Player, just Diffrent.

As for the "Proof" of Black Templars are bad all I have seen is.
"I tryed them and they Sucked."
No reasons as to why from experiance, No BatReps, No Examples, just "They Suck"" or "They Can't Assualt Anymore!"

I whant to know why, not be told "They Just Do Becouse They Can't Do What They Used To Do!"

There are two ways to sufficiently demonstrate this or provide the burden of proof:

1) Mathhammer

2) Personal Experience

Save a bat rep, which is a single occurence/anecdotal evidence, these things have already been covered in depth. Any player that has been playing this game for several editions can generally look at units on paper, as mentioned, and tell whether or not it will be effective. This is without taking into consideration that 6th edition is the shooting edition of the game.

Perhaps this will help demonstrate our main point. When had their own codex, the rules were designed around the core mechanics of being able to Consolidate into Combat. BT were able to do this DURING YOUR OPPONENTS TURN as well. It was deadly. It can be argued that this core mechanic was too powerful, but that is not the argument.

BT also had access to one of the first WS6 HQ choices (The Emperor's Champion), and a lot of close combat oriented perks (+S, Rerolls, Furious Charge, etc). They were designed to be a CC army in an edition that was not dominated by shooting.

Fast forward to further editions that shifted the metagame. BT were continuously nerfed via FAQ's, and were really only effective as a shooting force because of old edition costing for certain units/archaic codex design.

Enter the 6th edition Marine Codex. BT was rolled in (which is dissapointing- even DA, despite how bad that book is, is at the very least unique). Chapter's were assigned Traits to further identify their fluff/playstyles. BT, as discussed, recieved sub-par traits that do little to differentiate/focus on their previous design philosphy of a CC focussed marine army.

So in essence it has been a downard spiral for two editions of losing our identity and effectiveness. 5th Edition wasn't as bad since we didn't actually get a book release that was DESIGNED around the core rules. 6th edition was the nail in the coffin because we were basically squatted and given several pages of mediocre/overpriced characters and bad Chapter Traits.

Does that make sense?

XenosTerminus wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
No, I just think he plays in a group that doesn't pay particular attention to how good units are and so the whole mess evens out.

That is how the demographic of our group analyzes things as well. Unless your opponent purposely brings terrible lists or makes a ton of mistakes, playing BT as intended doesn't work.

Playing BT as intended? This confuses me. Do you guys all think that BT are intended to footslog in to melee? Here's the thing, they have chapter tactics that are situational, and CAN actually have a huge benefit. Other than that they are the same as other space marine chapters. If any of the space marine chapters can be competitive, then so can BT.

I think people need to stop relying so heavily on what they think BT should be ran like and stop relying on the chapter tactics rules. Some lists really revolve around them, like the white scars, but others, you just use the units that make sense in the book and then when you can, you take advantage of the chapter tactics. Like Imperial Fists, they get to reorll ones on bolters, which I know is the main shooting attack of the marines, but really, this is only marginally useful as it doesn't work for the sternguard vets. And their devastators get tank hunters, but I honestly don't see a lot of people taking devastators anyway.

Someone else said they are watered down space marines...HOW?! they ARE space marines. And they get to run further and get rending in a challenge, and can deny the witch on a 5+. Use Helbrecht for an Ultramine style one-use special rule. Its actually like their version of the Waaagh special rule. But to say that you guys are losing horribly using this rule set leads me to believe that you are losing not because of the rulebook, but because of your interpretation of the codex and inability to play it well. People see the chapter tactics rules and think they have to spam whatever involves that rule. Here's a tip, don't spam it. Use it when it comes up to devastating results, but don't force it. Because usually, running is not an optimal choice. But when you need to run, it is so nice to be able to get that extra dice. Challenges don't always come up everyturn, but when they do, rerolling and rending can make a huge difference. Think of their chapter tactics as passive abilities. You play a normal list, and then just take advantage of the perks when they come-up. Unlike some other lists where you would plan to have a bunch of melta-guns/flamers to make use of Salamanders special rules or plan to take a bunch of bolters for IF chapter tactics. Because the BT chapter tactics are so broad, you can literally run any type of list you want and can still take advantage of their special rules. Because Deny the witch and their challenge special rules can also be considered largely defensive.

But still, the Chapter Tactics don't play as big of a part of the army as some of you are making it out to be. It is more about the units, your placement, and your strategy than relying on one or two special rules. We have all the same units as those other space marine chapters, actually more because of the crusader squad option and the ability to take an LRC as dedicated. All this moping over the new BT codex seems undeserved in my eyes. People selling their armies. Good riddance. The Black Templar are not for the fearful or weak of heart

No Fear! No Pity! NO REMORSE!

 Anpu42 wrote:


I adapt and overcome
This does not mean I always win, what it means I look at what is going on and still try to win and have fun using what the Lemon Tree Gives Me.

You play a Chapter that has the best MEQ Troops choice in the game, which is good because it CAN adapt. How the hell do you magically adapt a Crusader Squad to take on Daemonettes, Monstrous Creatures or even a wave of Hormagaunts in CC? You have the option of backing off and shooting, because you have both Bolters and CCW/BP. Crusader Squads don't. They're not a threat.

I don't know what's given you the impression that I've given up; I keep playing my Templars and I desperately try to find a way, against all odds, to make it work. Getting a polite version of "lol l2p nub" isn't very encouraging. I've tried all the stuff you've suggested so far in the thread, and it hasn't worked.

 Icculus wrote:

XenosTerminus wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
No, I just think he plays in a group that doesn't pay particular attention to how good units are and so the whole mess evens out.

That is how the demographic of our group analyzes things as well. Unless your opponent purposely brings terrible lists or makes a ton of mistakes, playing BT as intended doesn't work.

Playing BT as intended? This confuses me. Do you guys all think that BT are intended to footslog in to melee? Here's the thing, they have chapter tactics that are situational, and CAN actually have a huge benefit. Other than that they are the same as other space marine chapters. If any of the space marine chapters can be competitive, then so can BT.

I think people need to stop relying so heavily on what they think BT should be ran like and stop relying on the chapter tactics rules. Some lists really revolve around them, like the white scars, but others, you just use the units that make sense in the book and then when you can, you take advantage of the chapter tactics. Like Imperial Fists, they get to reorll ones on bolters, which I know is the main shooting attack of the marines, but really, this is only marginally useful as it doesn't work for the sternguard vets. And their devastators get tank hunters, but I honestly don't see a lot of people taking devastators anyway.

Someone else said they are watered down space marines...HOW?! they ARE space marines. And they get to run further and get rending in a challenge, and can deny the witch on a 5+. Use Helbrecht for an Ultramine style one-use special rule. Its actually like their version of the Waaagh special rule. But to say that you guys are losing horribly using this rule set leads me to believe that you are losing not because of the rulebook, but because of your interpretation of the codex and inability to play it well. People see the chapter tactics rules and think they have to spam whatever involves that rule. Here's a tip, don't spam it. Use it when it comes up to devastating results, but don't force it. Because usually, running is not an optimal choice. But when you need to run, it is so nice to be able to get that extra dice. Challenges don't always come up everyturn, but when they do, rerolling and rending can make a huge difference. Think of their chapter tactics as passive abilities. You play a normal list, and then just take advantage of the perks when they come-up. Unlike some other lists where you would plan to have a bunch of melta-guns/flamers to make use of Salamanders special rules or plan to take a bunch of bolters for IF chapter tactics. Because the BT chapter tactics are so broad, you can literally run any type of list you want and can still take advantage of their special rules. Because Deny the witch and their challenge special rules can also be considered largely defensive.

But still, the Chapter Tactics don't play as big of a part of the army as some of you are making it out to be. It is more about the units, your placement, and your strategy than relying on one or two special rules. We have all the same units as those other space marine chapters, actually more because of the crusader squad option and the ability to take an LRC as dedicated. All this moping over the new BT codex seems undeserved in my eyes. People selling their armies. Good riddance. The Black Templar are not for the fearful or weak of heart

No Fear! No Pity! NO REMORSE!

Yes, we can take dedicated transport Land Raiders. Whoop-dee-doo.

And yes, I can run any list I want and take advantage of the BT Chapter Tactics, but that doesn't really matter when the tactics themselves have a neglible impact on the game. Further, the entire thread has been more or less one long explanation for why playing a "normal" (i.e., for BT, CC) list doesn't work, even WITH the Chapter Tactics. As you say yourself, most of the time the Chapter Tactics doesn't matter. You can't plan around the CT, which means it's BAD. At least Imperial Fists players know that they'll get more bolter hits.

 Icculus wrote:

Playing BT as intended? This confuses me. Do you guys all think that BT are intended to footslog in to melee? Here's the thing, they have chapter tactics that are situational, and CAN actually have a huge benefit. Other than that they are the same as other space marine chapters. If any of the space marine chapters can be competitive, then so can BT.

I think you'll find that we think that BT are supposed to be able to get into CC at all. When the only way to get into CC is via Land Raider, the army doesn't work as a CC army.

 Jidmah wrote:


Getting an utterly worthless chapter tactics is the problem. Black Templars needed thier chapter tactics to offset the inherit disadvantage of assault armies in some way. What they got is pretty much nothing.

6th Edition is the 'shooty' edition. The Templars were treated no differently than any other CC focused army. I think the new Tyranids Codex pretty much proves GW has no intention of letting any army be purely CC oriented. I'm not saying that's good or bad, but it is the way the game will be for the next few years.

Solis Luna Astrum wrote:

 Jidmah wrote:


Getting an utterly worthless chapter tactics is the problem. Black Templars needed thier chapter tactics to offset the inherit disadvantage of assault armies in some way. What they got is pretty much nothing.

6th Edition is the 'shooty' edition. The Templars were treated no differently than any other CC focused army. I think the new Tyranids Codex pretty much proves GW has no intention of letting any army be purely CC oriented. I'm not saying that's good or bad, but it is the way the game will be for the next few years.

Guess why we're complaining. At least the 'Nids have FMCs, fleet, and +3" run distance.

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:

 Anpu42 wrote:


I adapt and overcome
This does not mean I always win, what it means I look at what is going on and still try to win and have fun using what the Lemon Tree Gives Me.

You play a Chapter that has the best MEQ Troops choice in the game, which is good because it CAN adapt. How the hell do you magically adapt a Crusader Squad to take on Daemonettes, Monstrous Creatures or even a wave of Hormagaunts in CC? You have the option of backing off and shooting, because you have both Bolters and CCW/BP. Crusader Squads don't. They're not a threat.

I don't know what's given you the impression that I've given up; I keep playing my Templars and I desperately try to find a way, against all odds, to make it work. Getting a polite version of "lol l2p nub" isn't very encouraging. I've tried all the stuff you've suggested so far in the thread, and it hasn't worked.

Same- BT in 6th have been largely dissapointing unless your opponent purposely handicaps themself.

Adapting at this point is playing the army in a way that may not fit a playstyle that:

A) Fits Templar to begin with

B) Suits our personal taste

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:

I don't know what's given you the impression that I've given up; I keep playing my Templars and I desperately try to find a way, against all odds, to make it work. Getting a polite version of "lol l2p nub" isn't very encouraging. I've tried all the stuff you've suggested so far in the thread, and it hasn't worked.

I saw your 1000 point list. It look pretty terrible honestly. Your lone HQ and warlord, a chaplain, was in a 5-man assault squad. This is bad for several reasons. The chaplain has 3+ armor and few wounds. So he is fairly fragile, so putting him with 5 standard marines is not giving him any cover. Also, the zealot special rule allows re-rolls to hit on the assault. You should probably put him with a much larger group, or with a more resilient group that would actually make it to cc. Like either a crusader squad in a LR or with some terminators.
You also had two drop pods and one rhino, and the drop pod guys had some heavy weapons, and the rhino squad had close range weapons. I can tell you that your army would get destroyed by most, if you haven't found that to be true already.
But you also said in that post that you didnt want anyone to criticize or change the list, you just wanted to talk strategy. Strategy is largely based on 4 things.
1. Your list
2. The enemy army
3. The terrain
4. The mission

So we could only discuss one of those 4 things with you. The rest of the strategy is on the board at game time.

And we can get in to CC with Land Raiders, drop pods, and deepstriking. And depending on the board, footslogging is also an option for TH/SS terminators as long as drop pod came in that same turn to take the pressure off of them. I have successfully gotten my units in to melee using all three of these options.

XenosTerminus wrote:
There are two ways to sufficiently demonstrate this or provide the burden of proof:

1) Mathhammer

2) Personal Experience

Save a bat rep, which is a single occurence/anecdotal evidence, these things have already been covered in depth. Any player that has been playing this game for several editions can generally look at units on paper, as mentioned, and tell whether or not it will be effective. This is without taking into consideration that 6th edition is the shooting edition of the game.

Perhaps this will help demonstrate our main point. When had their own codex, the rules were designed around the core mechanics of being able to Consolidate into Combat. BT were able to do this DURING YOUR OPPONENTS TURN as well. It was deadly. It can be argued that this core mechanic was too powerful, but that is not the argument.

BT also had access to one of the first WS6 HQ choices (The Emperor's Champion), and a lot of close combat oriented perks (+S, Rerolls, Furious Charge, etc). They were designed to be a CC army in an edition that was not dominated by shooting.

Fast forward to further editions that shifted the metagame. BT were continuously nerfed via FAQ's, and were really only effective as a shooting force because of old edition costing for certain units/archaic codex design.

Enter the 6th edition Marine Codex. BT was rolled in (which is dissapointing- even DA, despite how bad that book is, is at the very least unique). Chapter's were assigned Traits to further identify their fluff/playstyles. BT, as discussed, recieved sub-par traits that do little to differentiate/focus on their previous design philosphy of a CC focussed marine army.

So in essence it has been a downard spiral for two editions of losing our identity and effectiveness. 5th Edition wasn't as bad since we didn't actually get a book release that was DESIGNED around the core rules. 6th edition was the nail in the coffin because we were basically squatted and given several pages of mediocre/overpriced characters and bad Chapter Traits.

Does that make sense?

Yes, I don’t completely agree with the whole “Squatting Thing.”
[This might be personally preferences talking]
They could have rolled every Space Marine Chapter except for Space Wolves and Grey Knights into once Codex and made it work.
[SW and GK just have to much unique stuff in them to make a cohesive codex]
They could have also tripled there money and put out one Full Codex for each Chapter.
They decides though to roll Black Templars into the Marine Codex, to me this was a bad idea for many reasons, but the rules are not all of them.

The current version of the Black Templars are written for 6th Edition so some rules had to go to fit. When I read the 6th Edition BRB and saw the Crusader USR, I knew then and there, this was going to be the core of the Black Templars Codex. I knew that Religious Zeal was going to be changed if not outright removed. What I did not expect is the removal of the Vows.

Now in my local Meta, everything they got will make a difference and I know my Meta is not the only one. in the more “Competitive Environment” it probably wont make a difference because every Codex that has come out in the last 3-4 Years has made the 2+/3+ Save worthless. With looking at that, all of the Marine Armies are junk.

I don’t think there was anything that GW could have done to make Black Templars fit into 6th that would have made ANY Black Templars Army/Player Happy.

And yes I am in the “Suck It Up and Move On Crowd” I just try to validate what you have and try to figure out how to make it better rather than just keep posting “Suck It Up and Move On”

 Anpu42 wrote:

XenosTerminus wrote:
There are two ways to sufficiently demonstrate this or provide the burden of proof:

1) Mathhammer

2) Personal Experience

Save a bat rep, which is a single occurence/anecdotal evidence, these things have already been covered in depth. Any player that has been playing this game for several editions can generally look at units on paper, as mentioned, and tell whether or not it will be effective. This is without taking into consideration that 6th edition is the shooting edition of the game.

Perhaps this will help demonstrate our main point. When had their own codex, the rules were designed around the core mechanics of being able to Consolidate into Combat. BT were able to do this DURING YOUR OPPONENTS TURN as well. It was deadly. It can be argued that this core mechanic was too powerful, but that is not the argument.

BT also had access to one of the first WS6 HQ choices (The Emperor's Champion), and a lot of close combat oriented perks (+S, Rerolls, Furious Charge, etc). They were designed to be a CC army in an edition that was not dominated by shooting.

Fast forward to further editions that shifted the metagame. BT were continuously nerfed via FAQ's, and were really only effective as a shooting force because of old edition costing for certain units/archaic codex design.

Enter the 6th edition Marine Codex. BT was rolled in (which is dissapointing- even DA, despite how bad that book is, is at the very least unique). Chapter's were assigned Traits to further identify their fluff/playstyles. BT, as discussed, recieved sub-par traits that do little to differentiate/focus on their previous design philosphy of a CC focussed marine army.

So in essence it has been a downard spiral for two editions of losing our identity and effectiveness. 5th Edition wasn't as bad since we didn't actually get a book release that was DESIGNED around the core rules. 6th edition was the nail in the coffin because we were basically squatted and given several pages of mediocre/overpriced characters and bad Chapter Traits.

Does that make sense?

Yes, I don’t completely agree with the whole “Squatting Thing.”
[This might be personally preferences talking]
They could have rolled every Space Marine Chapter except for Space Wolves and Grey Knights into once Codex and made it work.
[SW and GK just have to much unique stuff in them to make a cohesive codex]
They could have also tripled there money and put out one Full Codex for each Chapter.
They decides though to roll Black Templars into the Marine Codex, to me this was a bad idea for many reasons, but the rules are not all of them.

The current version of the Black Templars are written for 6th Edition so some rules had to go to fit. When I read the 6th Edition BRB and saw the Crusader USR, I knew then and there, this was going to be the core of the Black Templars Codex. I knew that Religious Zeal was going to be changed if not outright removed. What I did not expect is the removal of the Vows.

Now in my local Meta, everything they got will make a difference and I know my Meta is not the only one. in the more “Competitive Environment” it probably wont make a difference because every Codex that has come out in the last 3-4 Years has made the 2+/3+ Save worthless. With looking at that, all of the Marine Armies are junk.

I don’t think there was anything that GW could have done to make Black Templars fit into 6th that would have made ANY Black Templars Army/Player Happy.

And yes I am in the “Suck It Up and Move On Crowd” I just try to validate what you have and try to figure out how to make it better rather than just keep posting “Suck It Up and Move On”

I am glad you see our plight, and I wish I was more optimistic about things like you are. Fortunately our playgroup house rules and homebrews, so BT can actually be played effectively as a melee army (after core rule fixes and balancing with all armies).

But if/when a vanilla game of 6e needs to be played and I bring Templar? There are really no reasons to play them with BT chapter tactics. The loss of Librarians and emphasis on shooting really make picking Ultrasmurfs or another shooting oriented chapter a no brainer.

Hell, my other SM army is DA, so you can imagine how utterly self-loathing I am at this point as GW has continued to simultaneously crap on what I play from edition to edition. I am used to it and I do move on/adapt, but it's not nearly as enjoyable as it could be.

XenosTerminus wrote:
I am glad you see our plight, and I wish I was more optimistic about things like you are. Fortunately our playgroup house rules and homebrews, so BT can actually be played effectively as a melee army (after core rule fixes and balancing with all armies).

But if/when a vanilla game of 6e needs to be played and I bring Templar? There are really no reasons to play them with BT chapter tactics. The loss of Librarians and emphasis on shooting really make picking Ultrasmurfs or another shooting oriented chapter a no brainer.

Hell, my other SM army is DA, so you can imagine how utterly self-loathing I am at this point as GW has continued to simultaneously crap on what I play from edition to edition. I am used to it and I do move on/adapt, but it's not nearly as enjoyable as it could be.

Meta is also a big part. My group is what a lot of what others call a “Friendly/Fluffy”. We have one Tau player with ONE Riptide. Our Chaos Daemon Player has this weird Nurgle List, the main reason he wins if the portal of unending daemon spawn. Out Nid player does not use Flyrants and One Tervigon.
Mostly it is Marine on Marine action.
Even my Space Wolves are mostly Fluffy using Bolter Armed Scouts, Lone Wolves and my Long Fangs do not have x5 Millie Launchers.

The old group was all about the Flavor of month unpainted armies made of Cheese. I have not seen that group in forever and now are probably seeing TauDar Quad Riptide on TauDar Quad Riptide Action.