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So who are you going to successfully footslog these templars across the field against? Other marines, maybe. The high firepower lists will shred you.

 Anpu42 wrote:

XenosTerminus wrote:

 Anpu42 wrote:

Martel732 wrote:

 Anpu42 wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
The same reason meqs can't assault in general: they get shot to death before they get to assault. Or run into CC buzzsaws like SW or Daemons.

But Crusaders can tool up to be Assualty with weight of numbers.

And die with weight of numbers? They aren't cheap enough to survive the onslaught of 6th ed.

And there is a Marine unit that won't?

So your argument is that BT can be tooled up to be 'Assaulty', and then you relent to the point that no MEQ units can actually survive to make it there?

And you see no problem with this?

Actualy I do not agree with Martel at all, I was being sarcastic.

Ah, my mistake. Sarcasm often doesn't translate well on here.

I think it's a combination of things, but 6e just hammers it home.

T4 and 3+ are no longer worth what you pay for.

There is so much AP2 and High Str large quantity of shot firepower that has been introduced into the game that marines quite frankly are not survivable anymore. It's the arms race methodology that GW has been saturating codexes with that is prmarily responsible, but also probably an issue with GW frankly overvaluing the stats entirely.

Considering Marine wargear (save the new shiny) and overall stats have remained the same for almost the entire history of the game, it is unlikely this will change anytime soon.

XenosTerminus wrote:

 Anpu42 wrote:

XenosTerminus wrote:

 Anpu42 wrote:

Martel732 wrote:

 Anpu42 wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
The same reason meqs can't assault in general: they get shot to death before they get to assault. Or run into CC buzzsaws like SW or Daemons.

But Crusaders can tool up to be Assualty with weight of numbers.

And die with weight of numbers? They aren't cheap enough to survive the onslaught of 6th ed.

And there is a Marine unit that won't?

So your argument is that BT can be tooled up to be 'Assaulty', and then you relent to the point that no MEQ units can actually survive to make it there?

And you see no problem with this?

Actualy I do not agree with Martel at all, I was being sarcastic.

Ah, my mistake. Sarcasm often doesn't translate well on here.

I think it's a combination of things, but 6e just hammers it home.

T4 and 3+ are no longer worth what you pay for.

There is so much AP2 and High Str large quantity of shot firepower that has been introduced into the game that marines quite frankly are not survivable anymore. It's the arms race methodology that GW has been saturating codexes with that is prmarily responsible, but also probably an issue with GW frankly overvaluing the stats entirely.

Considering Marine wargear (save the new shiny) and overall stats have remained the same for almost the entire history of the game, it is unlikely this will change anytime soon.

Concidering all of the other Marines [I do not count GK and Sisters as MEQs] Crusaders are in the top 3 Assualt Units, the others being Grey Hunters and Blood Claws.

The only way Templars have "weight of numbers" is if you are footslogging which is practically futile in the current ed.

None of their transports options can carry a full sized crusader unit which means they need to foot slog. (most of their options don't allow for more than a half strength crusader squad)

Any sort of transport options eliminate their number advantages. Assuming you run a force based on 5/5 units in Rhino's you may end up squeezing in one extra squad worth of troops but it's hardly a hordes type situation. Hordes are like what Orcs and Tyranids field where you can run a huge mass of of low cost troops to flood the table with. Templars certainly aren't "low cost troops" they might be slightly cheaper then other marine squads of comparable size but you pay for it with lower armor saves and they still aren't "cheap" compared to true horde lists.

Nids for example are all fleet now and even with the extra movement and huge masses of bodies they can barely reach their destination, Templars are no longer any faster than any other marines as crusader doesn't add anything to their movement it just boosts the average distance roll. Where RZ actually extended their movement range considerably, the potential of adding an additional 9 inches of movement during the opponents turn is HUGE amount of ground to cover and helps you get your squads into cc far more intact.

That was the purpose of the meat shield, to absorb the ablative damage and trigger RZ, now the meat shield really doesn't do anything to enhance the offensive capacity of the squads nor does it help bolster movements benefits like RZ previously did.

You can still play an assault force, but the days of the black tide are long gone, now you need to do it out of spamming landraiders and stormtalons which while somewhat viable but it is nothing like how they used to play nor is it unique as every chapter has simular access to those.

 paulson games wrote:
The only way Templars have "weight of numbers" is if you are footslogging which is practically futile in the current ed.

None of their transports options can carry a full sized crusader unit which means they need to foot slog. (most of their options don't allow for more than a half strength crusader squad)

Any sort of transport options eliminate their number advantages. Assuming you run a force based on 5/5 units in Rhino's you may end up squeezing in one extra squad worth of troops but it's hardly a hordes type situation. Hordes are like what Orcs and Tyranids filed where you can dozens of low cost troops to flood the table with. Templars certainly aren't "low cost troops" they might be slightly cheaper then other marine squads of comparable size but you pay for it with lower armor saves and they still aren't "cheap" compared to true horde lists.

Nids for example are all fleet now and even with the extra movement and huge masses of bodies they can barely reach their destination, Templars are no longer any faster than any other marines as crusader doesn't add anything to their movement it just boosts the average distance roll. Where RZ actually extended their movement range considerably, the potential of adding an additional 9 inches of movement during the opponents turn is HUGE amount of ground to cover and helps you get your squads into cc far more intact.

That was the purpose of the meat shield, to absorb the ablative damage and trigger RZ, now the meat shield really doesn't do anything to enhance the offensive capacity of the squads nor does it help bolster movements benefits like RZ previously did.

You can still play an assault force, but the days of the black tide are long gone, now you need to do it out of spamming landraiders and stormtalons which while somewhat viable but it is nothing like how they used to play nor is it unique as every chapter has simular access to those.

And how did rolling them into the Marine codex change any of this, it changed nothing in the long run.
The problem is both the inheret issuses with 6th vs Assualt and the Xenos.

 paulson games wrote:
The only way Templars have "weight of numbers" is if you are footslogging which is practically futile in the current ed.

None of their transports options can carry a full sized crusader unit which means they need to foot slog. (most of their options don't allow for more than a half strength crusader squad)

Any sort of transport options eliminate their number advantages. Assuming you run a force based on 5/5 units in Rhino's you may end up squeezing in one extra squad worth of troops but it's hardly a hordes type situation. Hordes are like what Orcs and Tyranids field where you can run a huge mass of of low cost troops to flood the table with. Templars certainly aren't "low cost troops" they might be slightly cheaper then other marine squads of comparable size but you pay for it with lower armor saves and they still aren't "cheap" compared to true horde lists.

Nids for example are all fleet now and even with the extra movement and huge masses of bodies they can barely reach their destination, Templars are no longer any faster than any other marines as crusader doesn't add anything to their movement it just boosts the average distance roll. Where RZ actually extended their movement range considerably, the potential of adding an additional 9 inches of movement during the opponents turn is HUGE amount of ground to cover and helps you get your squads into cc far more intact.

That was the purpose of the meat shield, to absorb the ablative damage and trigger RZ, now the meat shield really doesn't do anything to enhance the offensive capacity of the squads nor does it help bolster movements benefits like RZ previously did.

You can still play an assault force, but the days of the black tide are long gone, now you need to do it out of spamming landraiders and stormtalons which while somewhat viable but it is nothing like how they used to play nor is it unique as every chapter has simular access to those.

This. Even if you do choose to spam Land Raiders or Storm Raven's (which would leave very little room left to do much else with your list) simply as a means to deliver Crusader Squads into combat, the squads are not at full strength, so in essence you are only increasing the model count of the unit by a small amount (which is not nearly enough to make the unit drastically more killy, especially considering the extra models are Scouts).

The only way to take advantage of what Crusader Squads have to offer are to run them on foot and maxed out (which is suicide) or to min-max them and run them as shooty units like GW evidently wants you to do (since they retained that ability for whatever reason).

The Chapter was dead on arrival with the new book. Play something better, or lower your expectations on how your army will do basically.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Anpu42 wrote:

 paulson games wrote:
The only way Templars have "weight of numbers" is if you are footslogging which is practically futile in the current ed.

None of their transports options can carry a full sized crusader unit which means they need to foot slog. (most of their options don't allow for more than a half strength crusader squad)

Any sort of transport options eliminate their number advantages. Assuming you run a force based on 5/5 units in Rhino's you may end up squeezing in one extra squad worth of troops but it's hardly a hordes type situation. Hordes are like what Orcs and Tyranids filed where you can dozens of low cost troops to flood the table with. Templars certainly aren't "low cost troops" they might be slightly cheaper then other marine squads of comparable size but you pay for it with lower armor saves and they still aren't "cheap" compared to true horde lists.

Nids for example are all fleet now and even with the extra movement and huge masses of bodies they can barely reach their destination, Templars are no longer any faster than any other marines as crusader doesn't add anything to their movement it just boosts the average distance roll. Where RZ actually extended their movement range considerably, the potential of adding an additional 9 inches of movement during the opponents turn is HUGE amount of ground to cover and helps you get your squads into cc far more intact.

That was the purpose of the meat shield, to absorb the ablative damage and trigger RZ, now the meat shield really doesn't do anything to enhance the offensive capacity of the squads nor does it help bolster movements benefits like RZ previously did.

You can still play an assault force, but the days of the black tide are long gone, now you need to do it out of spamming landraiders and stormtalons which while somewhat viable but it is nothing like how they used to play nor is it unique as every chapter has simular access to those.

And how did rolling them into the Marine codex change any of this, it changed nothing in the long run.
The problem is both the inheret issuses with 6th vs Assualt and the Xenos.

It's not so much an issue with 6th edition as it is some of the more potent shooting armies.

Black Tide was more effective with the old book even with 6th edition rules- Righteous Zeal really did help a lot to bridge the gap with your footsloggers. All GW had to do was fix that rule, but they scrapped it instead.

The problem isn't inherent to them being included in the codex, it's that they chopped away the core rules that made Templars functional. RZ being the main one, RZ is practically the soul of what defined the Templar playstyle and that was dropped completely. It'd be like Blood Angels losing access to assault troops and fast vehicles, or Space Wolves losing their sagas and priests.


Then you have removal of key fluff elements like the ability to include psykers and loss of holy and sacred relics it really alters how the force is seen as a unique entity. You lose not only mechanics that make them unique but you also lose large parts of the story elements and organization so it now longer feels like Templars. Templars aren't entirely about assaulting, there's a lot more to it which the codex waters down or skips over entirely which is why people are complaining about how their "feel" has been ruined.

It'd be like if they squeezed Space Wolves and Dark Angels into the same codex and suddenly they had all the same units and were best of friends that could be battle brothers. It'd have many players upset because part of what defines those chapters are that their views and organization are greatly opposed to each other thematically. It's much like loyalist chapters openly embracing and working with chaos chapters. Granted players can always adhere to building a force in line with how the older codex functioned but it doesn't correct the fact that they had almost everything about their rules and fluff restructured so they could be included in codex marine.

Those changes just don't work, Templars were quite unique before but now they are just vanilla marines who wear crosses.

"It'd be like Blood Angels losing access to assault troops and fast vehicles"

I'm sure GW will do this.

 paulson games wrote:
The problem isn't inherent to them being included in the codex, it's that they chopped away the core rules that made Templars functional. RZ being the core one.


Then you have removal of key fluff elements like the ability to include psykers and loss of holy and sacred relics it really alters how the force is seen as a unique entity. You lose not only mechanics that make them unique but you also lose large parts of the story elements and organization so it now longer feels like Templars. Templars aren't entirely about assaulting, there's a lot more to it which the codex waters down or skips over entirely which is why people are complaining about how their "feel" has been ruined.

It'd be like if they squeezed Space Wolves and Dark Angels into the same codex and suddenly they had all the same units and were best of friends that could be battle brothers. It'd have many players upset because part of what defines those chapters are that their views and organization are greatly opposed to each other thematically. It's much like loyalist chapters openly embracing and working with chaos chapters. Granted players can always adhere to building a force in line with how the older codex functioned but it doesn't correct the fact that they had almost everything about their rules and fluff restructured so they could be included in codex marine.

If both MY Space Marines [Space Wolves and Dark Arngels] got rolled into the Space Marine Codex I would be disapointed, but I would not Shelve them. I would make them MINE. I would play them MY way as I see them. I would not let any one thake them from ME. I have Survived 6 Editions of My Space Wolves Changing and I will Survive the next 6 Editions.
Marines Adapt and Overcome!

"Marines Adapt and Overcome!"

Evidently not in 6th edition.

I see two issues with this thread. First is that people are still comparing old to new. There isn't a single assault oriented army that performs as well in 6th as it did in pretty much every edition before it. 6th edition is just not assault friendly. Period. Every assault army has the same issues. How do you get across the table without being shot to death?

Second, and I'll agree that I've not investigated this but is there another chapter listed in the Marine Codex that can put together a better assault list using their own chapter tactics than the BT can? If not then Congrats you are the assault powerhouse of the SM book. Use what tools you do have instead of that which you think you aught to have. Because it ultimately all your doing is wish listing at this point. And that never wins games, but maximizing what strengths you do have does.

It's really hard to say which marine chapter is the best at direct assault. SW are the lords of counter assault, which is the only truly relevant kind now.

All the marines are pretty bad at direct assault now.

 Jayden63 wrote:
I see two issues with this thread. First is that people are still comparing old to new. There isn't a single assault oriented army that performs as well in 6th as it did in pretty much every edition before it. 6th edition is just not assault friendly. Period. Every assault army has the same issues. How do you get across the table without being shot to death?

Second, and I'll agree that I've not investigated this but is there another chapter listed in the Marine Codex that can put together a better assault list using their own chapter tactics than the BT can? If not then Congrats you are the assault powerhouse of the SM book. Use what tools you do have instead of that which you think you aught to have. Because it ultimately all your doing is wish listing at this point. And that never wins games, but maximizing what strengths you do have does.

^This

 Anpu42 wrote:

 Jayden63 wrote:
I see two issues with this thread. First is that people are still comparing old to new. There isn't a single assault oriented army that performs as well in 6th as it did in pretty much every edition before it. 6th edition is just not assault friendly. Period. Every assault army has the same issues. How do you get across the table without being shot to death?

Second, and I'll agree that I've not investigated this but is there another chapter listed in the Marine Codex that can put together a better assault list using their own chapter tactics than the BT can? If not then Congrats you are the assault powerhouse of the SM book. Use what tools you do have instead of that which you think you aught to have. Because it ultimately all your doing is wish listing at this point. And that never wins games, but maximizing what strengths you do have does.

^This

So what's your plan for our Black Templar players to "maximize their strengths"?

Martel732 wrote:

 Anpu42 wrote:

 Jayden63 wrote:
I see two issues with this thread. First is that people are still comparing old to new. There isn't a single assault oriented army that performs as well in 6th as it did in pretty much every edition before it. 6th edition is just not assault friendly. Period. Every assault army has the same issues. How do you get across the table without being shot to death?

Second, and I'll agree that I've not investigated this but is there another chapter listed in the Marine Codex that can put together a better assault list using their own chapter tactics than the BT can? If not then Congrats you are the assault powerhouse of the SM book. Use what tools you do have instead of that which you think you aught to have. Because it ultimately all your doing is wish listing at this point. And that never wins games, but maximizing what strengths you do have does.

^This

So what's your plan for our Black Templar players to "maximize their strengths"?

For me experment and see what works and not discarding stuff just becouse it looks bad on papaer.

 Jayden63 wrote:
I see two issues with this thread. First is that people are still comparing old to new. There isn't a single assault oriented army that performs as well in 6th as it did in pretty much every edition before it. 6th edition is just not assault friendly. Period. Every assault army has the same issues. How do you get across the table without being shot to death?
.

chaos demons were rather assaulty in 5th and they are still assaulty and good in 6th, they are like the top 3 armies alongside eldar and tau.

Makumba wrote:

 Jayden63 wrote:
I see two issues with this thread. First is that people are still comparing old to new. There isn't a single assault oriented army that performs as well in 6th as it did in pretty much every edition before it. 6th edition is just not assault friendly. Period. Every assault army has the same issues. How do you get across the table without being shot to death?
.

chaos demons were rather assaulty in 5th and they are still assaulty and good in 6th, they are like the top 3 armies alongside eldar and tau.

Because they have a single broken combo.

 Jayden63 wrote:
I see two issues with this thread. First is that people are still comparing old to new. There isn't a single assault oriented army that performs as well in 6th as it did in pretty much every edition before it. 6th edition is just not assault friendly. Period. Every assault army has the same issues. How do you get across the table without being shot to death?

Second, and I'll agree that I've not investigated this but is there another chapter listed in the Marine Codex that can put together a better assault list using their own chapter tactics than the BT can? If not then Congrats you are the assault powerhouse of the SM book. Use what tools you do have instead of that which you think you aught to have. Because it ultimately all your doing is wish listing at this point. And that never wins games, but maximizing what strengths you do have does.

Amen !

Templars have always been about the charge, not just in the sense of additional attacks but in their threat range.

Right now why they suffer is due to the lack of mobility, namely the loss of righteous Zeal that's 90% of why Templars no longer work as an assault force. Currently their maximum threat range is 30-50% less compared to what it used to be. Previously you could cover half the table in 2 turns of movement and it was on par with the pace of vehicles, now it takes 4+ turns to cover that same distance.

Under the previous codex you could optimize your RZ movement in a squad with the chaplain's cenobytes which are no longer an option for including and mixing into squads. A Chaplain led squad could be as many as 24 models while the quad now can only number only 21 models. That's a noticeable reduction in attacks, fewer wounds to soak fire with and they move at half their previous speed. Hellbrecht could also previously boost that same unit to 30 models and added a lot more additional PW attacks.


Current ed movement of Templar infantry

end of turn 1
total distance covered 6-12"
1 standard movement + 1 random run distance

end of turn 2
total distance covered 14-24"
2 standard movement +2 random run distance (or 1 run +1 charge)




Previous codex movement of Templar infantry
end of turn 1
total movement 12"
standard movement + run

additional righteous zeal movement
3-9"
total 15-21"

end of turn 2
total movement distance 27-33
2 standard movement + RZ + 1 Run +1 Charge


alternate turn 2 assuming 2 rounds of RZ w no charge
total movement distance 30-48"

2 standard movement +2 run movement + 2 RZ movement



The changes to assault in 6th are not the only reason Templars have gotten even more lackluster, their mobility has been largely stripped from them meaning they have to survive an extra 2 rounds of fire in an edition that is ruled by ranged combat. Their core strength of being able to get a functional squad into assault range has been gutted by removing RZ.



Also of note Templar bikes could previously run 3 power weapons in their unit, a death star unit of bikes led by a chaplain and techmarine was amazingly killy and fast. Those added up to be 9 extra PW attacks on the charge (and losing the 10th attack from the old techmarine), while not a focal point of the army losing it still sucks as it was uber buff unit in assault.

 Jayden63 wrote:
I see two issues with this thread. First is that people are still comparing old to new. There isn't a single assault oriented army that performs as well in 6th as it did in pretty much every edition before it. 6th edition is just not assault friendly. Period. Every assault army has the same issues. How do you get across the table without being shot to death?

Second, and I'll agree that I've not investigated this but is there another chapter listed in the Marine Codex that can put together a better assault list using their own chapter tactics than the BT can? If not then Congrats you are the assault powerhouse of the SM book. Use what tools you do have instead of that which you think you aught to have. Because it ultimately all your doing is wish listing at this point. And that never wins games, but maximizing what strengths you do have does.

No, BT do not have the best Chapter Tactics for assault. Hell the Iron Hands with IWND and 6+ FNP are better for assault than the BT because the BT Chapter Tactics are laughably bad. Raven Guard are better because of the ability to scout, get your guys across the board, and use their jump packs in movement and assault. BT get Rending in challenges, useless as most units in challenges will have a weapon that ignores armor or be horrible out classed, and Crusader. Crusader is good but it is...well why not just give Crusader Squads the CRUSADER special rule?

The problem is that BT are supposed to be an assault based marine chapter, C:SM has piss poor assault viability even excluding the fact that 6th is all about shooting. The problem with being rolled into the C:SM is that BT will NEVER be assault viable again because the codex is always going to be written for every other chapter and all of the other chapters are about balance. That is why BT DESERVED their own codex because they deviate so much from the Codex Astrates and they are SUPPOSED to be an assault army. Even if assault sucks in 6th, I would rather see them have their own codex with an assault focus than be wrapped into a codex that is designed to be shooty.

Arbiter_Shade wrote:

 Jayden63 wrote:
I see two issues with this thread. First is that people are still comparing old to new. There isn't a single assault oriented army that performs as well in 6th as it did in pretty much every edition before it. 6th edition is just not assault friendly. Period. Every assault army has the same issues. How do you get across the table without being shot to death?

Second, and I'll agree that I've not investigated this but is there another chapter listed in the Marine Codex that can put together a better assault list using their own chapter tactics than the BT can? If not then Congrats you are the assault powerhouse of the SM book. Use what tools you do have instead of that which you think you aught to have. Because it ultimately all your doing is wish listing at this point. And that never wins games, but maximizing what strengths you do have does.

No, BT do not have the best Chapter Tactics for assault. Hell the Iron Hands with IWND and 6+ FNP are better for assault than the BT because the BT Chapter Tactics are laughably bad. Raven Guard are better because of the ability to scout, get your guys across the board, and use their jump packs in movement and assault. BT get Rending in challenges, useless as most units in challenges will have a weapon that ignores armor or be horrible out classed, and Crusader. Crusader is good but it is...well why not just give Crusader Squads the CRUSADER special rule?

The problem is that BT are supposed to be an assault based marine chapter, C:SM has piss poor assault viability even excluding the fact that 6th is all about shooting. The problem with being rolled into the C:SM is that BT will NEVER be assault viable again because the codex is always going to be written for every other chapter and all of the other chapters are about balance. That is why BT DESERVED their own codex because they deviate so much from the Codex Astrates and they are SUPPOSED to be an assault army. Even if assault sucks in 6th, I would rather see them have their own codex with an assault focus than be wrapped into a codex that is designed to be shooty.

No, BT were capable of being a viable melee army in Codex: Space Marines, it's just that GW decided to nerf a 9 years old Codex instead of giving it the tools needed to perform its job.

1) How was it nerfed?
2) What were the tools it needs to to its 'job'?

I do not see nerfs when I look at this book. I see Crusaders dropping by 2pts, and then receiving grenades and a Sergeant for free. In fact I see price cuts to just about every single unit. I see RZ being removed from 'Ld8 check every turn for every unit getting shot' into a reliable Run boost. What it lacks in raw distance, is more than made up in sheer controllability. You have been given a swathe of new assault units, price cuts and new weapon options for the existing, and then a collection of assault transports to deliver them.

The one and only point I can ever see that might constitute a nerf, is that Righteous Zeal was swapped for Crusader. This is a nerf in the sense that your uncontrollable, wildly unreliable but potentially longer-distance movement has been replaced with something you can control.

Second, what do you need to get a mob of 20 foot infantry into combat in enough numbers that they can actually achieve something?
Do they need to be cheaper, and if so how do you propose they are cheapened? Do you make them faster because wizards did it and your Marines are especially long-legged, or do you make your Power Armour the best Power Armour to the extent that running forwards is a viable strategy?

As has been said many times before, you have a Marine army, and it has the tools to get units into assault. What it does not provide is the tool to get 60+ slow, infantry-movement into assault in large numbers, and I do not see why this is at all surprising.
If you want to assault, use your fast elements, use your transports and use units that can actually play the 6th Ed assault game. Do not take it as a personal attack when your infantry are being shot, in much the same way that you should not expect a Green Tide to work without KFF and Lootas.

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:

 Dozer Blades wrote:
I don't think Templars ever really deserve their own codex being a successor chapter. Salamanders or Imperial Fists are much more deserving.

Second Founding's the earliest any Chapter's existed. Prior to that both the Imperial Fists (Chapter) and the Black Templars were part of the Imperial Fists Legion. The Legion is not the same as the Chapter.

A Blood Angel is a Blood Angel... The original chapters are not successors. So in fact they are very much the same. Of course everything changes over time but that doesn't make them different.

 Dozer Blades wrote:

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:

 Dozer Blades wrote:
I don't think Templars ever really deserve their own codex being a successor chapter. Salamanders or Imperial Fists are much more deserving.

Second Founding's the earliest any Chapter's existed. Prior to that both the Imperial Fists (Chapter) and the Black Templars were part of the Imperial Fists Legion. The Legion is not the same as the Chapter.

A Blood Angel is a Blood Angel... The original chapters are not successors. So in fact they are very much the same. Of course everything changes over time but that doesn't make them different.

The fluff is rewritten so BT are a founding chapter, do you all of a sudden think they deserve their own codex? It is a ridiculous argument to say that first founding chapters are more deserving than second founding because it is all arbitrary.

No it's not. They are a cast off dreg of Imperial Fists lead by Sigsimundus who was a first class duff.

. That is why BT DESERVED their own codex because they deviate so much from the Codex Astrates and they are SUPPOSED to be an assault army. Even if assault sucks in 6th, I would rather see them have their own codex with an assault focus than be wrapped into a codex that is designed to be shooty.

So they are an assault based army.

They deviate how much exactly?

Do they deviate more then a Khorne based army?

Do they deviate more then an Exodite army?

Do they deviate more then Catachan army?

Do they deviate more then a Kroot army?

Please tell me why SM deserve another codex again? Even before Chaos? Before Eldar? Before even IG or Tau?

They don't "deserve" a thing.

 ZebioLizard2 wrote:

. That is why BT DESERVED their own codex because they deviate so much from the Codex Astrates and they are SUPPOSED to be an assault army. Even if assault sucks in 6th, I would rather see them have their own codex with an assault focus than be wrapped into a codex that is designed to be shooty.

So they are an assault based army.

They deviate how much exactly?

Do they deviate more then a Khorne based army?

Do they deviate more then an Exodite army?

Do they deviate more then Catachan army?

Do they deviate more then a Kroot army?

Please tell me why SM deserve another codex again? Even before Chaos? Before Eldar? Before even IG or Tau? Heck even the Iron Hands has more identity then Black Templar.

They don't "deserve" a thing.

They should be getting one of the Suplement Codex like all of the other,

I can't wait to see Anpu42 moving to Frown Town when GW brings around the new SW codex and decides to Templar-ize it by nerfing and eliminating all their special rules.


I feel bad for the Templar players they got a very short stick and would have been better off not getting update at all.

 stanman wrote:
I can't wait to see Anpu42 moving to Frown Town when GW brings around the new SW codex and decides to Templar-ize it by nerfing and eliminating all their special rules.


I feel bad for the Templar players they got a very short stick and would have been better off not getting update at all.

As I said earlyer, I will still play them
The only way for me to be sad right now is for them to get rid of Bjorn and double Special Weapons with Grey Hunters. I could see the first, but not the Second.
As for a not I have been playing them since there were Grey Marines in the Rouge Trader Days.

 Dozer Blades wrote:
No it's not. They are a cast off dreg of Imperial Fists lead by Sigsimundus who was a first class duff.

Well someone hates the BT for some reason. Strange.

Anyway, this thread was not about whether or not the BT deserve their own book or not. It's about how the BT are now that they are in the codex. And I agree with Jayden63. There are tools in the SM codex that make Black Templars playable. Again, there are not any obvious cheesey builds, but that's what makes it fun to play BT. They aren't overpowered, they go out against all odds with the faith of the emperor and of Dorn to win. You use the tools you were given and take home the victory anyway!

Drop pod in some honor guard after a dread/sternguard alpha strike, and support that with a couple landraiders or las/plas squads. Sprinkle in some AA and you have yourself a melee-focused playable army.