Game #2 vs Lyzz's Herald-hammer Daemons. For those of you who haven't heard of Lyzz, she is the 1st girl ever to have won a major GT - the Bay Area Open GT 2013.
Game #3 vs Dan's tournament-winning White Scars Space Marines. Dan was the person who won the Feast of Blades Open 2013.
2 more games tomorrow and if I can manage to win those, I will make it to the Elite 8 competing for the Championship on Sunday.
I was thinking about bringing my Tyranids, but because I didn't have all the models I wanted to bring yet, I opted to sit them out this tournament. In any case, here I wanted to bring my best army, which would be my Necrons.
Ok, I'm going to start off with the appetizers - pics of the other armies in the tournament.
If anyone here recognizes whose army belongs to whom, go ahead and give them a shout-out.
CHAOS:
Spoiler:
Now that's scary....
That's some frickin' nice Chaos Spawns.
ELDAR:
Spoiler:
You're going to see wave serpents and wraithknights as a common Eldar theme. Eldar was the most successful army at the LVO.
Alex Fennell's, the LVO Champion and winner, Seer Council Eldar/Dark Eldar. He ran the Seer Council with mechdar.
Eldau. Just an awesome conversion job on his riptide.
Grant Theft Auto's Seer Council Deldar. Grant did very well and would finish the tourney 4-1.
Nick Rose (aka Darkwynn) and his beautiful pure Eldar. Nick made it to Day #3 and the Top 8.
Adam Tricola's (aka Xaereth) Beaststar Deldar. Adam made it to the Top 4!
Another Beaststar army, his wraithknight was just gorgeous.
Alex also made it to Day #3 with his beautiful Eldar/White Scars army.
Blackmoor's Game #1 opponent - Pinkdar!
IMPERIAL GUARDS:
Spoiler:
IG with....Blood Angels? Forgeworld units include a Vulture and some Sabre Gun Platforms.
I'm not quite sure what that thing is....but it's freaking awesome! IG with Forgeworld.
My friend Bill (aka Panzer1944) and his massive IG collection. BTW, I get to play against that next week!
MARINE ARMIES:
Spoiler:
Definitely the most successful of the Marine armies at the LVO - the White Scars. Hotsauceman1's White Scars was probably the only biker army there painted as actual White Scars. Lol.
My roommate for the trip and eventual LVO Runner-up, Eric Hoerger (aka Creepycrawly) and his White Scars.
John (aka Zeztuku) and his LED White Scars/Space Wolves army. John's from my area. LED lights from Powerplayed Gaming.
White Scars + Tau! What a brutal combo.
Proof that Dark Angels were there.
I see Centurions!
TAU:
Spoiler:
Justin Cook's (aka Thanatos67) tournament-winning O'vesa-star. For those who don't know, Justin won the NovaOpen 2013 with his Tau/Tau army.
Very pretty....and only 1 riptide!
Spam Adams and his beautiful Triptide Tau.
More Centurion sightings!
The killer Orca from Israel's Tau. Israel is a very good player as well as painter! He finished the tournament 4-1 and his army also won Best Painted! BTW, Israel is one of the commission painters for Frontline Gaming.
TYRANIDS:
Spoiler:
Jay Woodcock's Tyranids. Jay and his bugs performed admirably, ending up in the Top 50.
Chuck's bugs! Whoa....no flyrants?!? Chuck's from my area.
OTHERS:
Spoiler:
1 of 2 NecrOrk armies (I played against the other one).
One of the few ork armies.
Hello St. Kitty!
MISCELLANEOUS:
Spoiler:
One of the vendors and some of his commission works.
A masterpiece of terrain that those lucky Warmachine players get to play on.
jy2 wrote: Currently playing at the LVO with my Necrons.
Day #1 just over and had 3 great games.
Game #1 vs Necrons + Orks.
Game #2 vs Lyzz's Herald-hammer Daemons. For those of you who haven't heard of Lyzz, she is the 1st girl ever to have won a major GT - the Bay Area Open GT 2013.
Game #3 vs Dan's tournament-winning White Scars Space Marines. Dan was the person who won the Feast of Blades Open 2013.
2 more games tomorrow and if I can manage to win those, I will make it to the Elite 8 competing for the Championship on Sunday.
Wish me luck guys. I'm gonna need it.
More updates coming later.
It sounds like you have been able to avoid the tau and eldar so far. That will be the true test. Kind of bummed that you gave up on the nids though. If you have to win your next 2 then it sounds like you might have taken a loss already. Will be interesting to see the report as I think games 1 through 3 are favorable match ups depending on ahs your list is. Can you post it?
Dude....it's just before the tourney now and I' m already f-cked up due to alcohol. My first opponent is a mirror- match against another wraith wing Necron player. May the dude with the most wraiths win. haha....j.k.!
jy2 wrote: Currently playing at the LVO with my Necrons.
Day #1 just over and had 3 great games.
Game #1 vs Necrons + Orks.
Game #2 vs Lyzz's Herald-hammer Daemons. For those of you who haven't heard of Lyzz, she is the 1st girl ever to have won a major GT - the Bay Area Open GT 2013.
Game #3 vs Dan's tournament-winning White Scars Space Marines. Dan was the person who won the Feast of Blades Open 2013.
2 more games tomorrow and if I can manage to win those, I will make it to the Elite 8 competing for the Championship on Sunday.
Wish me luck guys. I'm gonna need it.
More updates coming later.
It sounds like you have been able to avoid the tau and eldar so far. That will be the true test. Kind of bummed that you gave up on the nids though. If you have to win your next 2 then it sounds like you might have taken a loss already. Will be interesting to see the report as I think games 1 through 3 are favorable match ups depending on ahs your list is. Can you post it?
Nope didn't give up on the bugs. It's just that they weren't ready model-wise.
However, you will most likely see them at Adepticon.
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skoffs wrote: May you be blessed with many sixes... except when you need ones.
Btw, when should we expect to see bat-reps from your games?
jy2 wrote: Dude....it's just before the tourney now and I' m already f-cked up due to alcohol.
I hear this every time on the second day of a GT. Nicely done! May your mind be clear and may you make tactically good decisions, and may your wraiths roll inexplicably well! I'm rooting for the Nid players though!
Spoiler for you BatRep readers, but according to Torrent of Fire...
Spoiler:
Jy2 won all of his first 4 games! A very impressive feat, good luck on #5! (which has probably already happened, but I hope he did well)
ToF is updated in near-real time since they use it for pairings. Round 5 is in progress now. Prolly 2 hours more until we know who made the championships. Goatboy, darkwynn, and Thanatos all lost round 4. Jy2 and xaereth are the only undefeated players I recognize going into round 5. Eric Hoerger too I played him in the top row at daboyz, but idk if he posts on Dakka.
I was wondering how the imperial guard were in the top 2 at the moment. The answer is 9 quad launchers and a bunch of sabre platforms. Also, the old triple vendetta standby.
Figuring out the wounds from those quad launchers would be annoying. I've been using 2 and it takes a while.
Widowsbane wrote: JY against Hoeger in round 5...two great tourney players...wish I was there to see...
A rematch of sorts. This will be the 2nd time we've faced each other.
BTW, he's also my roommate here in Vegas!
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macexor wrote: I'm sure we are all interested in seeing your opponents photos. Especially your second game's enemy Lyzz.
Don't worry. I've got pics.
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bogalubov wrote: I was wondering how the imperial guard were in the top 2 at the moment. The answer is 9 quad launchers and a bunch of sabre platforms. Also, the old triple vendetta standby.
Figuring out the wounds from those quad launchers would be annoying. I've been using 2 and it takes a while.
That's Gareth Hunt and he is also a super good player on top of that.
I think he purposefully brought a broken army to show how broken Forgeworld could be.
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mortetvie wrote: GL Jim! I wish I could have made it this year. If you get a chance to swing by SoCal again lets get a few games in again .
Sure! I'd love to.
Thinking about returning to the Golden Throne?
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Valek wrote: good luck Jy2, wraithwing again? and lucky not facing tau or eldar...
I was hoping to....but I'm actually more happy facing players that I want to face instead. One of my goals is to face as many GT winners as I can and in just 5 games, I faced 3 of them: Lyzz, Dan and Eric Hoerger. To me the opponent is more important than the army.
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Blackmoor wrote: His nids were there because I do not own any 5th edition bugs I borrowed 2 mawlocs and a tervigon from JY2.
I made it to table 6 and was playing for the top 8 on game 5 but came up a bit short against a seer council.
Thanks again Jim for the use of the models.
Lol. I didn't bring my nods because my flyers weren't done.
Can't wait for your reports against Liz and Eric. I find necrons and demons are a worst case matchup for my bikes. And demons are for my necrons so can't wait to see your tactics used.
Wait, why did you not choose to run your Chaos Daemons? I know that you are a seasoned Crons player, but I think that Daemons might provide a little more of a challenge under your command. Flying Circuses are really annoying IMO. (I learned first hand from you, lol)
mortetvie wrote: Yes Jim, I hope to make it to the Golden Throne again this year (finances permitting) so we should get some practice games in for that .
Man, Tau sucks. They don't make it to the Top 8 and even get beaten by Tyranids. Hahahaha.....j.k.!
Man i missed top 8 by 2 battle points! Oh well I cried myself to sleep with my best tau player plaque.
Dam... I feel for ya. That really sucks. What was your list? Also, why do you think that Tau didn't do very well overall? I think that Eldar pretty much dominated...
HQ:
Commander, Iridium Armor, Command and Control Node, Multispectrum Sensor Suite, Puretide Engram Neurochip, Onager Gauntlet, Vectored Retrothrusters
170
Troops:
10 Kroot
60
Total 1750
I went 4-1 the only game i lost was game 4, lost 4-3 due to some bad deployment on my part. The list i played against (eldar/tau) forced me to castle into a table corner to prevent easy first blood, and i chose the wrong corner to castle into.
Cool, thanks for the list. How were you running the list? O'Vesa Star style or what? What do you think about the competition for Tau at LVO? Sadly I wasn't able to go, so I don't really have an idea on what was difficult etc., I can only look up stats and stuff.
Commander_Farsight wrote: Cool, thanks for the list. How were you running the list? O'Vesa Star style or what? What do you think about the competition for Tau at LVO? Sadly I wasn't able to go, so I don't really have an idea on what was difficult etc., I can only look up stats and stuff.
I don't think tau had an easy time. A lot of the good players have started to meta hard to beat them. Eldar and dark eldar buddies are top of the heap right now because of their speed and extreme durability. I was running my army as the o'vesa star as usual. I think I could have had similar success with my tau/marine list (gravstar) but went with what I had more experience playing. Its a shame you couldn't make it, it was a fantastic event.
Is it just me, or does it seem that the West coast has all the fun? I can't even think of one in central or even the east coast. I'd love to see you all and have some fun games.
Theres actually a ton of large east coast events. NOVA, Da Boyz, and 11th company are the largest IIRC. I think beakycon is also fairly large down in florida. Then there's 64ish person events that are usually qualifiers for the NOVA invitational like battle for salvation, the new Delawarr gt etc.
The midwest had a good amount as well such as, adepitcon, indy open, nova open, renegade open(north GT but easily in range), Midwest massacre GT... to name a few. I think the west coast actually has the fewest grand tournaments tbh.
Tomb King wrote: The midwest had a good amount as well such as, adepitcon, indy open, nova open, renegade open(north GT but easily in range), Midwest massacre GT... to name a few. I think the west coast actually has the fewest grand tournaments tbh.
That is correct.
Also the distances are greater out in the West so what few they have are harder to get to. I think that is why the East Coast players did better than the West Coast players is their tournament experience.
50 players showed up for templecon. Including nanavati, nayden, brad nochols, and a bunch of other GT regulars. That's where I was it was a lot of fun because it's in a steampunk convention with scantily clad girls and booze. It was the first time I've drank in 2 years lol.
Nice pics!! You're right that Riptide was way cool. Too bad it wasn't armed with a HBC though. The HBC/SMS loadout has always screamed Heavy Arms to me (or Gouf Custoin for all you 08th MS Team fans).
I'd kill to see an IA/FB Riptide modelled as Wing Zero. Somehow it wouldn't suck as much if Wing Zero dismantled my army compared to a regular looking Riptide doing the same.
Definitely looking forward to your battle reports. Also, just wanna be a fanboy for a sec and thank you, Reecius, and everyone else who helped develop the BAO mission types, and all the tactical advice you guys layout in your bat reps.
Both have been a huge boon to my area's gaming community (small though it is) and I appreciate it!!
Some of those paint jobs are FANTASTIC. It makes me feel like my stuff is bland and awful. Jy2, are you posting your batreps on this thread when you have the chance?
Lord Arturius wrote: Some of those paint jobs are FANTASTIC. It makes me feel like my stuff is bland and awful. Jy2, are you posting your batreps on this thread when you have the chance?
You betcha!
I'm actually hoping to get my 1st game up later today.
Chancetragedy wrote: Can't wait for your reports against Liz and Eric. I find necrons and demons are a worst case matchup for my bikes. And demons are for my necrons so can't wait to see your tactics used.
Daemons can match up well against necrons depending on the build. Fast horde daemons, like Lyzz's build here or my Herald-hammer daemons, will give wraiths problems but will have problems themselves against Necron flyers. On the other hand, FMC-spam daemons can take on necron flyers but will have problems against wraithwing necrons due to MSS. Overall, however, this matchup could go either ways.
Wait, why did you not choose to run your Chaos Daemons? I know that you are a seasoned Crons player, but I think that Daemons might provide a little more of a challenge under your command. Flying Circuses are really annoying IMO. (I learned first hand from you, lol)
Because I didn't want to?
Because the LVO didn't allow Be'lakor.
Because I'm saving Daemons for after Tyranids, which will be after my Necrons.
Man, Tau sucks. They don't make it to the Top 8 and even get beaten by Tyranids. Hahahaha.....j.k.!
Man i missed top 8 by 2 battle points! Oh well I cried myself to sleep with my best tau player plaque.
Dam... I feel for ya. That really sucks. What was your list? Also, why do you think that Tau didn't do very well overall? I think that Eldar pretty much dominated...
One army....White Scars. They are a hard counter to Riptide Tau. That army can potentially neuter Tau in just 1 turn.
astro_nomicon wrote: Nice pics!! You're right that Riptide was way cool. Too bad it wasn't armed with a HBC though. The HBC/SMS loadout has always screamed Heavy Arms to me (or Gouf Custoin for all you 08th MS Team fans).
I'd kill to see an IA/FB Riptide modelled as Wing Zero. Somehow it wouldn't suck as much if Wing Zero dismantled my army compared to a regular looking Riptide doing the same.
Definitely looking forward to your battle reports. Also, just wanna be a fanboy for a sec and thank you, Reecius, and everyone else who helped develop the BAO mission types, and all the tactical advice you guys layout in your bat reps.
Both have been a huge boon to my area's gaming community (small though it is) and I appreciate it!!
Glad we could help!
I basically write batreps for 2 reasons - to entertain and to educate. If our reports can help you or your friends with their games or just give you a few minutes of entertainment, then I am glad.
I've never played against Alan before, though I've seen him at the last Golden Throne tournament. However, he has seen my battle reports so he knows he's going to be in for a tough game. To make matters worse (for him), I win the roll for 1st turn and then force him to go 1st. In an aerial dogfight between Necron flyers, the one going 2nd usually has a huge advantage, not to mention that we were playing multiple objectives. His only advantage against me is his 4 troop choices to my 3.
Meganobs are going to be a problem, especially if they get the charge off against my wraiths. Not only are they a tough, resilient scoring unit, but they hit like a freight train when they get the charge off. I'm going to have to try to incapacitate his battlewagon early and I'm going to do it with side shots. His wraithstar isn't as big a concern to me as I outnumber him there. Overall, with me going 2nd, I'm pretty confident that I will take this game.
NecrOrk movement. He is intimidated by my wraiths and shifts away from them. He goes after my barges (AB's) instead.
Shooting does nothing.
Necrons 1
Spoiler:
My wraiths move towards my barges. I don't go all-out aggressive yet, but I will. First, I'm going to see if I can immobilize/wreck his battlewagon.
Unfortunately, my shooting does nothing as well.
NecrOrks 2
Spoiler:
3 out of his 4 flyers come in.
NecrOrk movement. He is baiting me with his AB, but I don't care. I'm going to take it up the chin when his meganobs assault....that is, if I don't take out his battlewagon.
He calls out the Waaagh. Shooting puts 2W on my Warlord as well as kill a wraith.
His AB's actually take out my D-lord for First Blood due to poor rolling (and Look-Out-Sirs) on my part.
Necrons 2
Spoiler:
All 3 of my flyers come in.
Wraiths now take the offensive.
My AB actually backs away from my opponent's wraiths.
My shooting is devastating. I down all 3 flyers!
I believe I also take off 2 HP's from his battlewagon but fail to incapacitate it.
Wraiths assault and blow up the lead AB. They fail to multi-assault the 2nd barge.
It is a devastating turn for my opponent, but next turn, he may be able to get some revenge with an assault by his meganobs.
NecrOrks 3
Spoiler:
His last flyer comes in.
Warriors come in as well. They come in by his Emperor's Will objective.
Meganobs disembark and prepare for a 4" charge (through difficult terrain).
Wraiths start making their way towards my EW objective. I am actually trying to misdirect them with my AB and to lead them away from my deployment zone.
I believe he takes out my flyer with his AB's, but that is all his shooting does.
Meganobs then make the charge. Unfortunately for Alan, Mindshackles goes off and I kill his warboss in a challenge. He then rolls very poorly for his attacks and I end up winning combat by a considerable margin.
Meganobs then break and my wraiths consolidate forwards.
Necrons 3
Spoiler:
Warriors come in and run towards my EW objective.
My flyers move forwards.
AB continues to pull back, hoping to lead his wraiths away from my deployment zone.
Wraiths split up. 1 unit goes after his barges and troops. The other goes after his wraiths. I need to slow them down.
My barges go after his troops.
Shooting takes off 2 HP's from his night scythe.
Barges fail to finish off 1 unit of warriors. I take down 4. 1-2 get back up.
Wraiths blow up his battlewagon. I also immobilize his AB on top of the ruins.
My other unit of wraiths assault his wraithstar. This time, I get the short end of the straw as I lose 3 wraiths.
NecrOrks 4
Spoiler:
He's going after my troops. His warriors disembark (flyer moves about 24" only).
Meganobs regroup, but they can't assault this turn. That gives me a little time.
Warriors and night scythe only manage to take out 2 of my warriors (after my Reanimation rolls). Part of the reason for this is most of my warriors were out of the arc-of-fire of his night scythe, plus his warriors rolled poorly to hit.
His wraiths finish off my lone wraith.
That's ok. They've achieved their objective, which was to delay Alan's wraiths for 1 or more turns.
Finally, because my wraiths are still in base-contact with his immobilized barge, I blow it up.
Necrons 4
Spoiler:
2 can play that game. My night scythe comes in (it flew off on my last turn) and out disembarks my immortals.
Wraiths prepare to do bad things to his meganobs. My other wraiths go after his wraithstar. I don't really need to kill them. I just need to tie them up for the rest of the game.
I take out both his troops and his flyer.
Shooting takes out 1 wraith and put 1W on his Warlord.
I kill a few warriors with shooting.
Doh! I fail a 5" charge!
However, my wraithstar makes the multi-assault....
....and take out both units.
NecrOrks 5
Spoiler:
They're getting closer....
Necrons 5
Spoiler:
My Warlord joins the other unit of wraiths.
I drop off my immortals onto the Crusade objective.
I take out another wraith (I think) with shooting.
If the game ends now, I take down both the Primary and the Secondary. However, it continues.
NecrOrks 6
Spoiler:
There is no escaping.
Now my opponent is contesting my EW objective.
Necrons 6
Spoiler:
The beginning of the end.
And the end.
NecrOrks tabled.
I get all the points with the exception of First Blood. Necrons take it 9-1.
Good read. I am guessing you got second turn up until your defeat. In this game it was settled with the initiative roll really, taking out 3 of his fliers was game.
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herpguy wrote: I gotta wonder why gauss immortals? I always found tesla to be better and mathhammer suggests so as well.
Probably because he was playing WYSIWYG. Everything is easy on paper until your review your collection.
herpguy wrote: I gotta wonder why gauss immortals? I always found tesla to be better and mathhammer suggests so as well.
Tesla is better if you start them off on an objective and shoot them all game. I don't play them that way. Rather, they are a surgical strike tool. I take them because I use them to hunt down enemy MSU troops. S5 AP4 means that they will kill most non-MEQMSU troops and then take their objective. Landing them on the objective and then rapid-firing gives them more shots. Worst case scenario is that we tie on objectives. Best case scenario is that I deny him an objective by wiping out his troops, while at the same time grabbing that objective myself, thus giving me a 2-objective turn-around.
3+ also means that I can play them a little more aggressively and survive enemy retalitorial fire. This makes them much more flexible than warriors in terms of how I can use them. With immortals, it's no longer drop them on T5 and pray the game doesn't go on.
Red Corsair wrote: Good read. I am guessing you got second turn up until your defeat. In this game it was settled with the initiative roll really, taking out 3 of his fliers was game.
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herpguy wrote: I gotta wonder why gauss immortals? I always found tesla to be better and mathhammer suggests so as well.
Probably because he was playing WYSIWYG. Everything is easy on paper until your review your collection.
Pretty much, except one game against necrons where I went 2nd and none of his flyers came in on Turn 2!
This game was settled by good shooting!
I do have Tesla Immortals. I just prefer Gauss if I keep them in night scythes.
hotsauceman1 wrote: Lul, I was the only White Scars Player with them painted like White Scar.
Cool, I will edit the photos to reflect this.
Hmmm....thought you'd be running Tau. Guess life is full of surprises. Or tournaments, at least.
Jdredsox wrote: Nice report, I really enjoy watching your necrons work. Can't wait to see them vs Daemons.
Do you feel your army performed as expected throughout the whole tournament?
They did, with the exception of 1 game - my only loss. That was disappointing.
However, I can't really blame them entirely. My opponent was making saves like a boss that game.
Commander_Farsight wrote: Great game, and great job! Must have been pretty embarrassing for Alan to get tabled. I'm looking forward to your next LVO installment. Thanks!
Thanks. There is nothing embarrassing about getting tabled by a GT winner or by an army such as my wraithwing necrons! They are super-strong!
hotsauceman1 wrote: Lul, I was the only White Scars Player with them painted like White Scar.
Cool, I will edit the photos to reflect this.
Hmmm....thought you'd be running Tau. Guess life is full of surprises. Or tournaments, at least.
Everyone knows me as Tau, but White Scars where my first army ever. I was biding my time until the new book cause I didnt want to get used to the old ones, the go to the new ones. For that army I didnt have to buy nearly nothing new for it. I had it all
Naw wrote: How did you manage to MSS his warboss on his turn?
Challenge issued first, Mindshackle afterwards.
My (personal) interpretation is that issuing a challenge and MSS are simultaneous, so he could have decided to have MSS go off first. Great game nonetheless!
Naw wrote: How did you manage to MSS his warboss on his turn?
Challenge issued first, Mindshackle afterwards.
My (personal) interpretation is that issuing a challenge and MSS are simultaneous, so he could have decided to have MSS go off first. Great game nonetheless!
Active player decides the order, so it would seem that the Ork player made a bad mistake.
Naw wrote: How did you manage to MSS his warboss on his turn?
Challenge issued first, Mindshackle afterwards.
My (personal) interpretation is that issuing a challenge and MSS are simultaneous, so he could have decided to have MSS go off first. Great game nonetheless!
You (personal) interpretation is correct.
However, there is a time and a place for everything. And in a tournament playing against me isn't the time or place to "teach" my opponent the "finer" tricks-of-the-trade and how to beat me.
I thought that, as a necron player, he would know this. Apparently, he didn't. It wasn't until after our game that he told me he was sort of new to Necrons. Ah, the growing pains of playing a new army in a tournament.
Great win Jim I can't wait for the next batrep! As an Ork player I probably would have made the same mistake with the MSS. It's hard to remember all those special little tricks and rules unless you constantly expose yourself to them.
Thanks for the first report and for the following ones
Just one question, after meganobz regroup why do you mention they can't charge ?
After unit regroup if i well remember, it can move only 3ps, snapshoot and it can charge.
Just one question, after meganobz regroup why do you mention they can't charge ?
After unit regroup if i well remember, it can move only 3ps, snapshoot and it can charge.
Pg 31 of the rulebook..
Once a unit has regrouped, it cannot otherwise move (so cannot run in the shooting phase or charge in the assault phase).
Sorry, but did not have time to work on report last night or today.
Will have time tonight though.
y0disisray wrote: Great win Jim I can't wait for the next batrep! As an Ork player I probably would have made the same mistake with the MSS. It's hard to remember all those special little tricks and rules unless you constantly expose yourself to them.
Thanks. MSS+challenge is largely a necron trick and most necron players should know about it. Then again, the best way to learn about a trick in most cases is by falling for it. Lol.
Rotary wrote: Who makes those boxed carrying cases a lot of players had?
I'm sure they are out of my budget but wow those looked nice.
It's by Tablewar.
Here's an interesting fact. The Mega-mats are actually produced by a joint-venture between Frontline Gaming and Tablewar.
CaptainJay wrote: No armour on the Daemon Prince, that's pretty risky 5++ isn't exactly survivable...
He's just a delivery vehicle for the Portaglyph. Make him too bloated and it would be hard to fit in so many Fast Attacks.
As a matter of fact, my Herald-hammer Daemons is essentially the same list, minus the DP but with 1 more Tzeentch Herald and more Fast Attacks.
No, it's probably to bulk up her Heralds and FA some more. The emphasis on this type of list is the Heralds + FA, not the DP itself.
Hmm, I feel that in for a penny, in for a pound, I personally feel the extra mastery level and armour on the DP are near-mandatory, yes it pushes him up by 45pts but it makes him massively resisilant to small arms fire (and anything non-ap3) and gives potential for some awesome psychic combos (I generally take FF and either 2 biomancy/telepathy for some shooting prowess and the buffs). As it is I personally don't rate the portaglyph that highly and the DP only have 5++ means he won't survive much..
Hmm, I feel that in for a penny, in for a pound, I personally feel the extra mastery level and armour on the DP are near-mandatory, yes it pushes him up by 45pts but it makes him massively resisilant to small arms fire (and anything non-ap3) and gives potential for some awesome psychic combos (I generally take FF and either 2 biomancy/telepathy for some shooting prowess and the buffs). As it is I personally don't rate the portaglyph that highly and the DP only have 5++ means he won't survive much..
It's not as bad as you'd think, especially when she's got 2++ flesh hounds right at your doorsteps or that nasty re-rollable 2++ screamer unit right up in your face. You just lag the DP behind (or better yet, hide him a turn) and he isn't really a priority at all.
What's worse, Fateweaver got Invisibility this game. To my army without any ways to ignore cover, that DP is still getting re-rollable 2+ cover to my shooting. Not saying that Invisibility will be consistent in any of her games, but in our game at least, the 5+ shouldn't really matter if she really wants to keep her DP alive.
So fine reading, your batreps are one of the best Ive ever seen. Detailed photos, complete army lists gives very precise view in battle.
Much love from Poland. Im waiting for another part! Game with daemons was awesome I belive.
I think youre talented player, I also play crons at tournaments, so I appreciate your games, but only one think that bothers me- res orbs on d.lord? Are they truly nescessary? Dropping them might means that you would be able to get 2 additional wraiths, which can be thrown in front of enemy with lord behind them, so they would be able to take some shots on the chins which minimise shots on your d.lord, the same thing as res.orb do, but more elastic beacause wraiths can fight, orbs do not
My 2nd game and I get to go up against Lyzz and her Chaos Daemons. For those of you who haven't heard about Lyzz, she made headlines last year as the very first female player to ever win a major tournament. Yes, she went 8-0 at the Bay Area Open GT 2013 (also the only person to ever go undefeated at the BAO) with her Daemons and beat out Alan "Pajamapants" Bajramovich for the title. Now I've seen her at a few tournaments already, including the Golden Throne GT 2012 which I won, but we've never had the opportunity to play against each other. So you could say that I was pleasantly surprised (and happy) to finally get to play against her in this tournament. Life is full of surprises. Last year at the BAO, I was also pleasantly surprised to get to play another great Daemon player, Alex (aka whigwam) the winner of the Feast of Blades GT 2012. In any case, I was thrilled to be able to test my skills against another highly-skilled player.
Kairos Sharkweaver - Sunburst + Misfortune, Endurance + Invisibility Herald of Khorne - Juggernaut, Lesser Reward (Axe of Khorne)
Herald of Slaanesh - Steed, Exalted Loci of Beguilement, Greater Reward (Greater Etherblade)
Herald of Tzeentch - Disc, Level 3 Psyker, Exalted Reward (The Grimoire) - Forewarning, Perfect Timing, Prescience
10x Daemonettes
10x Daemonettes
11x Pink Horrors
9x Flesh Hounds
7x Screamers of Tzeentch
14x Seeker of Slaanesh
Daemon Prince - Wings, Daemon of Tzeentch, Level 2 Psyker, Greater Reward (+1 Wound, It Will Not Die), Exalted Reward (Portaglyph, Template weapon) - Iron Arm, Warp Speed
I was actually somewhat concerned about this battle. I know that she is a very good Daemon player, not just because of the BAO but because she consistently wins at her local events. Also, Daemons are one of the armies that can beat my wraiths in assault. They've got the volume-of-attacks to do so and the psychic powers that will help tip the combat into their favor. Moreover, she's got some excellent psychic powers. You really couldn't ask for better. Forewarning + Grimoire means that she can give any of her units 2++ (which becomes 2++/4++ for Tzeentch units, LVO's version of the re-rollable 2++'s). Invisibility is another power that will give her Tzeentch units re-rollable 2++ as well (at least the ones with jink). Misfortune is a nightmare for my wraiths and lastly, her Daemon Prince got both Iron Arm and Warp Speed! I really don't want to be stuck in combat with any of her hordes followed by a counter-assault by her DP. Honestly, she doesn't even need to beat me in combat. If her screamers can multi-assault, with their re-rollable 2++, they can just tie down multiple wraith units for practically the entire game.
However, her army isn't without its challenges. My shooting is just deadly to her army and she doesn't have an answer for my flyers. More importantly, I believe I have a huge experience advantage over her. She has never played against wraithwing necrons before, especially one run by the likes of me. I, on the other hand, am intimately familiar with Daemons. As a matter of fact, I run a very similar Daemon army as hers - my Herald-hammer Daemons. Thus, I knew exactly how to play against them, just like I knew exactly how to play against Alex's Daemons last year at the BAO. I have a feeling this game will be more of a learning experience for her than it would be for me.
Screamers with Herald become 2++ from Forewarning and the Grimoire. DP only gets +1 S/T from Iron Arm. Fatey casts Endurance I believe on the flesh hounds. If I don't mention it again, assume each turn Daemons successfully cast their powers (though the targets of those powers may be different each turn).
Daemons make their move.
They then run.
Screamers turbo-boost.
Currently, Lyzz is playing very cautiously. Basically, she is just shifting her positions and circling around my forces. I think she is slightly intimidated by my wraiths and is careful not to give me the charge. Instead, she is hoping that I play aggressive and go after her. Good, I can use that against her. Unlike her army, my army isn't primarily assault-based. I can actually do quite a bit of damage with my shooting, which she is going to find out soon enough.
Necrons 1
Spoiler:
I think I surprise my opponent by not playing aggressive. As a matter of fact, I use her strategy against her. I shift my units away from hers (and towards her deployment zone) so that we a "Mexican" stand-off (or whatever it's called).
I then fire at her, using the billboard to try to direct fire into her Khorne Herald (by focus-firing on the units "outside" of cover). I end up killing only 2 hounds and putting 1W on a 3rd (after Look-Out-Sirs from the Herald). Darn Endurance....it actually saved a lot of hounds.
Daemons 2
Spoiler:
Both daemonettes come in. However, 1 scatters off the table and kills itself, thus giving me First Blood and a VP. She also loses 1 daemonette to dangerous terrain.
VP's - Daemons: 0, Necrons: 1
Her units start to come towards me. After my last turn of shooting (I actually caused a lot of wounds), she's beginning to see that she won't be able to survive by playing the positioning game. She's got to act!
Her seekers head towards me as well.
Portaglyph produces 2 daemonettes, who then run towards an objective.
Shooting by Sharkweaver. I fail an extraordinary amount of saves (7 out of 8!), thus losing 3 wraiths.
Screamers then turbo and flesh hounds run.
My opponent is cunning. She offers up her flesh hounds (in terrain) as bait for my wraiths.
She then surprises me by also running with her seekers towards me. Hmmmm....
....surrounded by her fast attacks on all sides. Whatever am I supposed to do. Heh heh....I've got something evil planned for her army.
Necrons 2
Spoiler:
All 3 of my flyers come in and they go after Sharkweaver. I can see the "Oh crap" look on her face as she fails to account for my flyers as well as to protect Fateweaver with the Grimoire or Invisibility.
If I take out Fateweaver this turn, I can potentially table her in this game.
F*ck it. Let's have some fun. I take her bait and go after her 3 Fast Attacks with all 3 of my Fast Attacks.
However, I am extremely crafty. I surprise her with a move that she really didn't expect at all. All 3 barges focus-fire into her seekers out of cover. I did this for 2 reasons:
1. So that I wouldn't fail a charge by having the closest models removed.
2. Her Herald of Slaanesh is out of cover. Thus, I can actually get to her.
And indeed I do as I wipe out 8 seekers, including her Herald!
VP's - Daemons: 0, Necrons: 2
Sharkweaver....it was sharking that I didn't kill him! With only a 4++ save, he makes something like 11 out of 15 or so wounds, surviving with just 1W remaining!
I then launch my assaults.
This turn could be critical for my opponent.
Seekers....wiped out!
VP's - Daemons: 0, Necrons: 3
Screamers actually beat out my wraiths in combat, killing 2 thanks to Prescience and some good rolling.
Lastly, I wipe out all but 1 flesh hound and the Herald.
Things are looking bleak for my opponent, but at least Fatey is still alive....for now.
Daemons 3
Spoiler:
Fateweaver casts his powers and then fly off the table. The DP vector-strikes my night scythe and takes off 1 Hull Point. Screamers fail to get off Forewarning but they do have the Grimoire on them.
My opponent makes a mistake this turn. She casts Invisibility on the Khorne Herald's unit once again to try to lock up my wraiths in combat. I felt that she should have cast it on the DP instead. Oh well, next turn I'm going to make her pay for it.
Portaglyph spawns 6 plaguebearers.
Pink horrors shoot down 1 wraith.
Invisibility actually worked! Not only am I unable to kill off his flesh hounds, but his Khorne Herald passes Mindshackles and kills my Destroyer Lord....and he fails to get back up!
VP's - Daemons: 1, Necrons: 3
My wraiths are deteriorating rapidly. I've only got 1 more wraith with 1W left in combat with the screamers.
Necrons 3
Spoiler:
Night scythes go after her troops.
Barges go after her DP.
So long Joe. It was nice not knowing you. Muahahahaha.
VP's - Daemons: 1, Necrons: 4
Night scythes kill off 5 out of 6 plaguebearers and wipe out the unit of 2 daemonettes.
VP's - Daemons: 1, Necrons: 5
Wraiths assault the horrors....
....and then consolidates towards the Portaglyph.
VP's - Daemons: 1, Necrons: 6
Screamers finish off the lone wraith.
VP's - Daemons: 2, Necrons: 6
However, my wraiths finish off the last flesh hound and the Khorne Herald.
VP's - Daemons: 2, Necrons: 8
Daemons 4
Spoiler:
My opponent makes another mistake. When she flew Sharky off the table, she was thinking of Dawn of War deployment. When he comes back in, I remind her that it is actually Hammer & Anvil. So poor Sharkey has to go after my wraithstar.
Worse yet, I don't believe that she sees this, but she just set up Sharkey perfectly for my night scythes next turn (though maybe she felt like she didn't really have a choice).
Portaglyph produces 2 pink horrors.
Instead of going after my wraiths (on a 1-pt Scouring objective), she does the smart thing with her screamers....which was to go after the 3-pt objective instead. They turbo-boost.
Sharkey fires at my wraithstar....and gets denied!
Necrons 4
Spoiler:
I go after her daemonettes and screamers.
Forget about the 1-pt objective. My scoring wraiths go after her daemonettes on a 3-pt objective.
So long Sharkey. It was nice not knowing you as well.
Wraiths head for the same 3-pt objective that Lyzz's screamers are heading towards.
Sharkweaver feels the bite from my shark attack.
Wraiths multi-assault the unit of 2 horrors and 1 plaguebearer and wipe them both out.
Daemons 5
Spoiler:
Tzeentch Herald perils to Forewarning and dies (she already took 1W earlier to perils)! At least it goes off....but no Grimoire because the Herald died.
In a last-ditch effort, the Portaglyph spawns another unit of 2 daemonettes, who run and make it to a 2-pt objective.
Screamers turbo to the 3-pt objective.
Necrons 5
Spoiler:
I may be a nice guy....but I am looking for the table in this game.
I prepare for assault and start dropping troops on objectives.
Screamers are going down.
They survive my shooting and assault!
I assault/shoot at the daemonettes and wipe them out. I claim the objective here.
Immortals shoot down the unit of 2 daemonettes to grab another objective.
Lastly, I am unable to finish off the screamers so this objective is contested.
Game ends. All my opponent has left is a few screamers and the Portaglyph. I get max points this round, winning 10-0.
Its painful to watch when people don't realize they are facing an army that has 0 templates. You don't have to spread out. It just hurts you too in this case as you have shown twice.
It is only turn 2 and I have already counted two huge mistakes by her... hopefully she cleans it up but most likely to late at this moment.
Yeah Tomb King, not spreading out is huge mistake and those horrors which died by ds-ing also mistake. She also played too defensive, she could use Kairos shooting more with his invisivility and use maybe screamers as bait to able devastating charge of her dogs next turn. Maybe she was intimidated
Jy2 wouldnt it be better idea to shot to Sharky with one barge rather than shooting seekers with all three? Statistically 3 Night Scythe dont always kill Kairos.
Ah Jim! How could you leave us with the cliff hanger of turn 2!!!
Looking forward to the rest of the report! Not sure what lyzz could do to save her army at this stage, you've played it really well although "taking the bait" was a bit of a gamble.
Fragile wrote: Your pictures dont represent that you lost 3 wraiths from a unit.
My bad. I'm trying to recall the game from the pictures so I apologize if there are a few minor discrepencies.
In that case, I must have taken 1 or 2W on my Lord after losing 2 wraiths from Sharky's shooting.
Then on my turn, my Lord "jumped ship" and joined the healthy wraith unit to assault the flesh hounds.
Tomb King wrote: Its painful to watch when people don't realize they are facing an army that has 0 templates. You don't have to spread out. It just hurts you too in this case as you have shown twice.
It is only turn 2 and I have already counted two huge mistakes by her... hopefully she cleans it up but most likely to late at this moment.
I've actually got 3 large blasts....when she blows up my night scythes.
The saying "know thy opponent" is so important, especially in high-level games against high-level opponents. She just wasn't very familiar with the capabilities of my army (and probably with my generalship as well). This led to her playing a lot more passively than she probably normally would have and I just took advantage of that. Of course it helped that I knew her army very well, but that's just how it goes. There's another saying that I believe strongly in: "knowledge is power". In this case, the general with more knowledge (in terms of the opponent's army) just had an advantage.
SwistakCZC wrote: So fine reading, your batreps are one of the best Ive ever seen. Detailed photos, complete army lists gives very precise view in battle.
Much love from Poland. Im waiting for another part! Game with daemons was awesome I belive.
I think youre talented player, I also play crons at tournaments, so I appreciate your games, but only one think that bothers me- res orbs on d.lord? Are they truly nescessary? Dropping them might means that you would be able to get 2 additional wraiths, which can be thrown in front of enemy with lord behind them, so they would be able to take some shots on the chins which minimise shots on your d.lord, the same thing as res.orb do, but more elastic beacause wraiths can fight, orbs do not
Res Orbs are a force-multiplication wargear. More wraiths is just more extra bodies. In my experiences, force multiplication > 1 more 2W body. They are not truly necessary....but they are a much better investment than adding 1 single wraith.
Believe me, orbs can fight. As a matter of fact, they can give you another 3-4 S7 AP1 armourbane warscythe attacks when your lord gets back up.
SwistakCZC wrote: Yeah Tomb King, not spreading out is huge mistake and those horrors which died by ds-ing also mistake. She also played too defensive, she could use Kairos shooting more with his invisivility and use maybe screamers as bait to able devastating charge of her dogs next turn. Maybe she was intimidated
Jy2 wouldnt it be better idea to shot to Sharky with one barge rather than shooting seekers with all three? Statistically 3 Night Scythe dont always kill Kairos.
She was using Invisibility....just not on Kairos himself (she cast it on the flesh hounds). Of course that would be a mistake on T2 when my scythes come in....but I can attribute that to not knowing just how deadly my flyers can be against FMC's. Yeah, I think she may have been slightly intimidated. I don't blame her though. My army can be downright scary if you've never faced against it before.
Fatey was a nuisance, but the more immediate problem was the seekers. I needed them dead! Besides, I felt 3 night scythes should have done the job. She just rolled really well with her 4++ saves (and probably with 5+ FNP as well).
Jdredsox wrote: Ah Jim! How could you leave us with the cliff hanger of turn 2!!!
Looking forward to the rest of the report! Not sure what lyzz could do to save her army at this stage, you've played it really well although "taking the bait" was a bit of a gamble.
Yeah, I really didn't want to assault her screamerstar with my wraiths. At the same time, I didn't want them running around loose either so I did what I thought was the lesser of 2 evils....I assaulted them to try to pin them down for a couple of turns.
Thanks for answering as well as posting rest of second battle report.
In matter of resorb there is one more issue- there are a lot of situations when opponent is able to place models in such manner that d.lord cant return to play, beacause of 1" space between him and enemy model. But good point that orbs can fight
SwistakCZC wrote: Thanks for answering as well as posting rest of second battle report.
You're welcome.
There's so many games I've won because my D-lords kept getting back up. If not for my res orbs, I wouldn't be perfect against Tau and Eldar (haven't lost to them yet ). It's also demoralizing to my opponent when my lords get back up over and over again.
There's so many games I've won because my D-lords kept getting back up. If not for my res orbs, I wouldn't be perfect against Tau and Eldar (haven't lost to them yet ). It's also demoralizing to my opponent when my lords get back up over and over again.
Youre right that psychological aspect is also imporant in this game. Maybe I will try your tactic to have those orbs on d.lords, it can be also helpful when at the end of game you want to tank warriors unit with d.lord, res orb increases their survivability when you went first, and troops need to survive on objecrive. Have you played against tau/eldar at LVO?
Yup but she made some mistakes, after reading the whole rep I think she used portal too early, it was kill point game and she just give some kp for Jy, it may landed later and elswhere, too spread out wraiths or be used as bait i think Its strange that she had beaten Alan B. (I know him, beacause USA team played with Polish team this year on ETC and one of my pal played against him and told me hes very good player).
Ooof. Ouch.Talk about thinking 3 steps ahead. It's impressive how you manage to make your opponents play your game like that, and dictate the way it all plays out.
So, seeing that it was strategically unsound for the Daemons to begin play defensively, how would you have played against your army?
With the benefit of hindsight, this is what I was thinking:
Turn 1:
Maintain the aggressive scout move with the dogs, and continue forward with them towards the necron bubble. but should do so in a tight formation
Seekers should follow as closely behind as possible. And clump up.
This is where it gets a little dodgy but I think it might work: Cast nearly all available buffs on the Screamers (Invisibility, Prescience, Forewarning, Grimoire) and turboboost with them to spread out and screen for the Seekers and Hounds. This is obviously an expensive speed bump, but a mighty durable one.
Daemon Prince buffs up, and Fatey hangs back and shoots from his max range.
This way there's really no way you could take out the Screamers with shooting, and given careful positioning, there should be almost no way you can make an assault on the hounds or the seekers. If your necrons chose to take the bait, then the Hounds, Seekers, and Prince are in position for a fairly devastating counter charge. If you choose not to take the bait (and juicy bait it is), then you have just conceded considerable board control to the daemons who will continue to hunt you down.
That was a painful loss for Daemons... I think that without the mistakes and a slightly better list (this is of course just IMO) then it could have been different. A flying circus might have done better.
Man Jim that just shows a master tactician at work! I really enjoyed the moves you made in this game it really shows how well of a player you actually are.
To be fair to her, defensive play is the right thing to do when you have no idea how powerful your opponents army is, but she should have stayed outside of your threat bobble and hide from your fliers when they came in. Pure aggressive play is more of a 5th ed. play style, 6th ed. is more about intelligent placement, patience and cohesion (which ive learnt from my 2 weeks playing 6th lol).
It's interesting she doesn't have much experience vs Necrons and this list is pretty standard for competitive play. It's always tough facing a solid army you don't know well in a tournament... Lizzy was bound to make some mistakes and they were quite costly. I'm sure if there was a rematch she would give you a better game.
Well done, Jim! I can't really disagree with any of your moves in this game, or your analysis. Your list is a tough one to play against for just about any army out there, let alone for someone who hasn't played against it yet. I was hoping to see a little more of a tactical game on her part - her actions were a bit inconsistent, which doesn't generally make for favorable results.
If I'm playing against something I don't really know how to deal with, I generally just go full-out aggressive and target the stuff I'm unsure of. Not sure if that would have worked for Lyzz, but playing passive against someone who is known to be a good player seems like an excellent way to get taken apart.
Looking forward to reading your later matches, you haven't really been challenged yet.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
iGuy91 wrote:Ooof. Ouch.Talk about thinking 3 steps ahead. It's impressive how you manage to make your opponents play your game like that, and dictate the way it all plays out.
y0disisray wrote:Man Jim that just shows a master tactician at work! I really enjoyed the moves you made in this game it really shows how well of a player you actually are.
herpguy wrote:Wow this was a battle of pure skill. This is one of the best batreps I have read. You clearly outplayed her, there wasn't any luck involved here.
Jim, are you actually the second coming of Alexander the Great like the rumors say?
SwistakCZC wrote: Thanks for answering as well as posting rest of second battle report.
In matter of resorb there is one more issue- there are a lot of situations when opponent is able to place models in such manner that d.lord cant return to play, beacause of 1" space between him and enemy model. But good point that orbs can fight
You can minimize this situation with experience. So far, this probably happens to me maybe 1 in 20 attempts to get back up (where I lose my Lord). Some tips:
1. Assault with your wraiths. Form a wall where your opponent can't pile in past it. This always gives your Lord an "out" to get back up. Even a unit of 2 wraiths will greatly improve his chances.
2. Avoid assaulting large mobs with just your Lord or with few wraiths. This is where most of the time they can't get back up. But if you have to do it, then don't hesitate to. Winning the game is more important than making sure your Lord gets back up.
3. Use your own vehicles or even terrain to form "walls" where you can safely get back up from.
4. If it's just the Lord or Lord + 1 wraith, go after the smaller units. You need bodies to fully cover the space to prevent a Lord from getting back up and usually, small units just cannot do it.
5. Pray your opponent rolls low for his consolidation.
Basically, when you assault, just watch out for situations where you can improve your Lord's chances to get back up. But more importantly, don't hesitate to assault if it would give your army the advantage. Your Lord is just a pawn to be sacrificed if he can bring your army closer to victory.
There's so many games I've won because my D-lords kept getting back up. If not for my res orbs, I wouldn't be perfect against Tau and Eldar (haven't lost to them yet ). It's also demoralizing to my opponent when my lords get back up over and over again.
Youre right that psychological aspect is also imporant in this game. Maybe I will try your tactic to have those orbs on d.lords, it can be also helpful when at the end of game you want to tank warriors unit with d.lord, res orb increases their survivability when you went first, and troops need to survive on objecrive. Have you played against tau/eldar at LVO?
Yup but she made some mistakes, after reading the whole rep I think she used portal too early, it was kill point game and she just give some kp for Jy, it may landed later and elswhere, too spread out wraiths or be used as bait i think Its strange that she had beaten Alan B. (I know him, beacause USA team played with Polish team this year on ETC and one of my pal played against him and told me hes very good player).
My philosphy is this - don't be afraid to make sacrifices if it will bring you closer to victory. The Primary was the Scouring. Purge was only Secondary. Thus, she was willing to give up the Secondary in order to try to win the Primary. That was actually her best chance for victory because my VP's were just too hard to get. There's almost no way for her to win both unless she could table me, which wasn't going to happen today. Thus, if I were in her shoes, I would have done the same thing. I agree with her tactics on deploying the Portaglyph so early.
Yeah, I haven't played against Alan, but I know he's good. He's won several GT's here in the US and made it to I believe the Top 4 in this tournament. But don't under-estimate Lyzz. She made some mistakes this game due to her unfamiliarity with my army, but she's still a very good player. If we were to play again, I think it's going to be a much tougher fight for my necrons the next time we meet, especially now that she's got some experience under her belt.
iGuy91 wrote: Ooof. Ouch.Talk about thinking 3 steps ahead. It's impressive how you manage to make your opponents play your game like that, and dictate the way it all plays out.
It's all about the moves and counter-moves. I was better able to predict/anticipate her moves than she was mine as I was much more familiar with the capabilities of her army than she was of mine.
So, seeing that it was strategically unsound for the Daemons to begin play defensively, how would you have played against your army?
With the benefit of hindsight, this is what I was thinking:
Turn 1:
Maintain the aggressive scout move with the dogs, and continue forward with them towards the necron bubble. but should do so in a tight formation
Seekers should follow as closely behind as possible. And clump up.
This is where it gets a little dodgy but I think it might work: Cast nearly all available buffs on the Screamers (Invisibility, Prescience, Forewarning, Grimoire) and turboboost with them to spread out and screen for the Seekers and Hounds. This is obviously an expensive speed bump, but a mighty durable one.
Daemon Prince buffs up, and Fatey hangs back and shoots from his max range.
This way there's really no way you could take out the Screamers with shooting, and given careful positioning, there should be almost no way you can make an assault on the hounds or the seekers. If your necrons chose to take the bait, then the Hounds, Seekers, and Prince are in position for a fairly devastating counter charge. If you choose not to take the bait (and juicy bait it is), then you have just conceded considerable board control to the daemons who will continue to hunt you down.
Tactically sound or should I go back to school?
Great strategy. This is what I would have done:
1. Put Prescience, Forewarning and Grimoire on the screamers. Turbo-boost them to about 12" away from my wraiths. They will be the frontline screening unit.
2. Follow them up with the flesh hounds and then the seekers behind the hounds. Make sure to keep a little distance to prevent the multi-assault.
3. Put Endurance on the flesh hounds and Invisibility on the Seekers. These will be the counter-assault units. Or particular importance are the seekers. They are the heavy hitters in her army. Thus, Invisibility for the 2+ cover (from the screening hounds and screamers) to ensure they hit my wraiths at full strength.
4. As Kairos and the DP are unprotected at the moment, keep them back, either out of range of my annihilation barges or out of LOS. They are ok on Turn 1 and will have time to power up (i.e. Invisibility on Fatey) before my reserves come in on Turn 2. Make sure to leave a few trailing models from the units that you are going to buff next turn - flesh hounds and seekers - so that Kairos can still cast his powers on them next turn.
5. You want to try to get the DP into assault on Turn 2. So the trick is to position him such that he is safe from my shooting on Turn 1 and at the same time, within charge range for Turn 2.
6. Counter-assault with the rest of your army if I assault his screamers on T1. Just be aware that I will probably counter-assault your counter-assaulters as well. Lol.
Of course, I am aware of this strategy as well and will have a Plan B if she were to play this way. Can we say, "multi-assault, combat-res death-by-Daemonic-Instability"?
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Commander_Farsight wrote: That was a painful loss for Daemons... I think that without the mistakes and a slightly better list (this is of course just IMO) then it could have been different. A flying circus might have done better.
Flying Circus might have done better against other armies....but not against me. Mindshackle scarabs and tesla destructors just love FMC's.
y0disisray wrote: Man Jim that just shows a master tactician at work! I really enjoyed the moves you made in this game it really shows how well of a player you actually are.
Thanks.
iddy00711 wrote: To be fair to her, defensive play is the right thing to do when you have no idea how powerful your opponents army is, but she should have stayed outside of your threat bobble and hide from your fliers when they came in. Pure aggressive play is more of a 5th ed. play style, 6th ed. is more about intelligent placement, patience and cohesion (which ive learnt from my 2 weeks playing 6th lol).
Agreed. That is just the natural instinct of most players when going up against the unknown.
Also, never play aggressively just because your army is aggressive. Play as the situation dictates and allow for some flexbility. Sometimes, hiding is a good strategy even if it is counter to your army's natural tendencies, especially when you are going up against a bad matchup.
Dozer Blades wrote: It's interesting she doesn't have much experience vs Necrons and this list is pretty standard for competitive play. It's always tough facing a solid army you don't know well in a tournament... Lizzy was bound to make some mistakes and they were quite costly. I'm sure if there was a rematch she would give you a better game.
Must not be a lot of necron players in her local meta. It's funny how necrons have died down since Adepticon where they were the pre-eminent army.
Yeah, if we were to play again, I think it will be a much tougher fight for me.
herpguy wrote: Wow this was a battle of pure skill. This is one of the best batreps I have read. You clearly outplayed her, there wasn't any luck involved here.
Anyways, with her seekers being that fragile they really couldn't afford being out of the fight for another turn.
I could nitpick on what I would have done but Monday Morning Quarterbacks annoy me so I won't be one!
Thanks.
If there was 1 criticism I would make about her game, it would be that she didn't really seem to know what to do with Invisibility. Perhaps she just doesn't have much experience using it. I'd have cast it on the seekers on Turn 2.
As for Fateweaver, I'd have used the screamers to "block" the incoming flight paths of my night scythes (she actually almost did, even though she was not aware of it). Either that or fly Fatey off the table. I wouldn't fault her on this though, because she just wasn't familiar enough with what my night scythes can do to her FMC's.
You can minimize this situation with experience. So far, this probably happens to me maybe 1 in 20 attempts to get back up (where I lose my Lord). Some tips:
1. Assault with your wraiths. Form a wall where your opponent can't pile in past it. This always gives your Lord an "out" to get back up. Even a unit of 2 wraiths will greatly improve his chances.
2. Avoid assaulting large mobs with just your Lord or with few wraiths. This is where most of the time they can't get back up. But if you have to do it, then don't hesitate to. Winning the game is more important than making sure your Lord gets back up.
3. Use your own vehicles or even terrain to form "walls" where you can safely get back up from.
4. If it's just the Lord or Lord + 1 wraith, go after the smaller units. You need bodies to fully cover the space to prevent a Lord from getting back up and usually, small units just cannot do it.
5. Pray your opponent rolls low for his consolidation.
Basically, when you assault, just watch out for situations where you can improve your Lord's chances to get back up. But more importantly, don't hesitate to assault if it would give your army the advantage. Your Lord is just a pawn to be sacrificed if he can bring your army closer to victory.
Yeah youre right, I know that sometimes its nescessary to sacrifce some units if needed. I have tried some tricks already especially no. 5 (its most dangerous when whole unit is whiped out, d.lord is most frequently in frontline to make use of his mss, so after consolidation its very hard to get him back due to large base and required 1" distance from enemy) But seriously no. 3 is very nice suggestion. I have to place models carefully. Thanks!
So, seeing that it was strategically unsound for the Daemons to begin play defensively, how would you have played against your army?
With the benefit of hindsight, this is what I was thinking:
Turn 1:
Maintain the aggressive scout move with the dogs, and continue forward with them towards the necron bubble. but should do so in a tight formation
Seekers should follow as closely behind as possible. And clump up.
This is where it gets a little dodgy but I think it might work: Cast nearly all available buffs on the Screamers (Invisibility, Prescience, Forewarning, Grimoire) and turboboost with them to spread out and screen for the Seekers and Hounds. This is obviously an expensive speed bump, but a mighty durable one.
Daemon Prince buffs up, and Fatey hangs back and shoots from his max range.
This way there's really no way you could take out the Screamers with shooting, and given careful positioning, there should be almost no way you can make an assault on the hounds or the seekers. If your necrons chose to take the bait, then the Hounds, Seekers, and Prince are in position for a fairly devastating counter charge. If you choose not to take the bait (and juicy bait it is), then you have just conceded considerable board control to the daemons who will continue to hunt you down.
Tactically sound or should I go back to school?
Great strategy. This is what I would have done:
1. Put Prescience, Forewarning and Grimoire on the screamers. Turbo-boost them to about 12" away from my wraiths. They will be the frontline screening unit.
2. Follow them up with the flesh hounds and then the seekers behind the hounds. Make sure to keep a little distance to prevent the multi-assault.
3. Put Endurance on the flesh hounds and Invisibility on the Seekers. These will be the counter-assault units. Or particular importance are the seekers. They are the heavy hitters in her army. Thus, Invisibility for the 2+ cover (from the screening hounds and screamers) to ensure they hit my wraiths at full strength.
4. As Kairos and the DP are unprotected at the moment, keep them back, either out of range of my annihilation barges or out of LOS. They are ok on Turn 1 and will have time to power up (i.e. Invisibility on Fatey) before my reserves come in on Turn 2. Make sure to leave a few trailing models from the units that you are going to buff next turn - flesh hounds and seekers - so that Kairos can still cast his powers on them next turn.
5. You want to try to get the DP into assault on Turn 2. So the trick is to position him such that he is safe from my shooting on Turn 1 and at the same time, within charge range for Turn 2.
6. Counter-assault with the rest of your army if I assault his screamers on T1. Just be aware that I will probably counter-assault your counter-assaulters as well. Lol.
Of course, I am aware of this strategy as well and will have a Plan B if she were to play this way. Can we say, "multi-assault, combat-res death-by-Daemonic-Instability"?
What would you do against that strategy as Necron? Assault screen with one wraiths squad and prepare the rest of army for counter-assault? Or rather back out, shoot and wait for more convenient moment for assault?
Xaereth wrote: Well done, Jim! I can't really disagree with any of your moves in this game, or your analysis. Your list is a tough one to play against for just about any army out there, let alone for someone who hasn't played against it yet. I was hoping to see a little more of a tactical game on her part - her actions were a bit inconsistent, which doesn't generally make for favorable results.
If I'm playing against something I don't really know how to deal with, I generally just go full-out aggressive and target the stuff I'm unsure of. Not sure if that would have worked for Lyzz, but playing passive against someone who is known to be a good player seems like an excellent way to get taken apart.
Looking forward to reading your later matches, you haven't really been challenged yet.
Spoiler:
iGuy91 wrote:Ooof. Ouch.Talk about thinking 3 steps ahead. It's impressive how you manage to make your opponents play your game like that, and dictate the way it all plays out.
y0disisray wrote:Man Jim that just shows a master tactician at work! I really enjoyed the moves you made in this game it really shows how well of a player you actually are.
herpguy wrote:Wow this was a battle of pure skill. This is one of the best batreps I have read. You clearly outplayed her, there wasn't any luck involved here.
Jim, are you actually the second coming of Alexander the Great like the rumors say?
Thanks Adam. I was hoping I'd get the chance to play against you, Nick Rose and Justin Cook but it just wasn't meant to be. Congrats on a fine performance at the LVO.
The only problem with her list is that she had no shooting really. So for her to go full-out aggressive would mean that she would have to move up and let me assault her. Otherwise, if she stays out of my assault range, I would have just continued shooting at her army (or backed up and shot at her army, at least for 1 more turn before I start moving out).
My army was just a bad matchup for hers. I can fight as well as she can in combat, but I have much better shooting and air superiority.
tetsuo666 wrote: Great game but the lyzz's list is not a hard one, i think she have no chance at all to win against yours.
She did, but it just would have been an uphill battle for her. My list is just a tough army for her to play against, even if she was familiar with it.
Jim, are you actually the second coming of Alexander the Great like the rumors say?
Nah, he's too short
I'm curious to see the reports of what happened later in the tournament and how you missed out on the top 8.
Lol.
I see myself more as this tactician:
Congrats on your victory, Alex. I shall have to get a game in against you in the future. BTW, I got punked by my own roomate, the guy who played against you in the Finals.
1. Put Prescience, Forewarning and Grimoire on the screamers. Turbo-boost them to about 12" away from my wraiths. They will be the frontline screening unit.
2. Follow them up with the flesh hounds and then the seekers behind the hounds. Make sure to keep a little distance to prevent the multi-assault.
3. Put Endurance on the flesh hounds and Invisibility on the Seekers. These will be the counter-assault units. Or particular importance are the seekers. They are the heavy hitters in her army. Thus, Invisibility for the 2+ cover (from the screening hounds and screamers) to ensure they hit my wraiths at full strength.
4. As Kairos and the DP are unprotected at the moment, keep them back, either out of range of my annihilation barges or out of LOS. They are ok on Turn 1 and will have time to power up (i.e. Invisibility on Fatey) before my reserves come in on Turn 2. Make sure to leave a few trailing models from the units that you are going to buff next turn - flesh hounds and seekers - so that Kairos can still cast his powers on them next turn.
5. You want to try to get the DP into assault on Turn 2. So the trick is to position him such that he is safe from my shooting on Turn 1 and at the same time, within charge range for Turn 2.
6. Counter-assault with the rest of your army if I assault his screamers on T1. Just be aware that I will probably counter-assault your counter-assaulters as well. Lol.
Of course, I am aware of this strategy as well and will have a Plan B if she were to play this way. Can we say, "multi-assault, combat-res death-by-Daemonic-Instability"?
What would you do against that strategy as Necron? Assault screen with one wraiths squad and prepare the rest of army for counter-assault? Or rather back out, shoot and wait for more convenient moment for assault?
Yup. The screamerstar is a tarpit unit, so why throw all my wraiths into them just to have all my wraiths tarpitted? I'd have assaulted with my naked 6-wraith unit (D-lord would have joined the 5-wraith unit), let her counter-assault my naked wraith unit and then assault her counter-assaulters with the rest of my army. Then kill off her units with Daemonic Instability tests.
The truth is Daemons struggle against Wraithwing since they're actually worse than the Wraiths in cc, and get forced to take DI tests en masse. Also, Abarge shooting > Daemon shooting.
If only the screamerstar could get hit and run, maybe it would be more useful.
Asmodai Asmodean wrote: The truth is Daemons struggle against Wraithwing since they're actually worse than the Wraiths in cc, and get forced to take DI tests en masse. Also, Abarge shooting > Daemon shooting.
If only the screamerstar could get hit and run, maybe it would be more useful.
Not sure if youre right, if you play against daemon list with 3-4 heralds, screamers and double hounds you may find it unpleasant. Lots of heralds generate huge amount of tzeentch dakka which combined with misfortune can be deadly for wraiths. A.barges are deadly but they can shoot us as well effectively. You can add another problem when they stop our wraiths- tied in close combat or wiped out, we have problem to kill horrors on objectives since they have 3+ cover in area terrain with rerollable 1's.
They're not easy one, but crons are able to acheive crushing win if played well.
Dan, Dan "Superman". Poor Dan, he's never been able to beat me yet. It's not because he lacks the skill. Dan is actually a really good player and recently won the Feast of Blades Open with his White Scars. It's just that every time we've played, it just seems like his dice just sh*ts on him. Lol. Maybe I'm just his cooler. In any case, his 5th Ed. bikers have now become one of the best non-deathstar armies currently, and I've never played against a full 6th Ed. White Scars army before. Let's see what a difference 1 edition makes.
For some reason, I can't find his list so this is approximately what he brought.
Ko'sorro Khan - Moondraken
Chapter Master - Bike, Shield Eternal, Power Fist, 2+
Man, I wished I could have practiced against the new White Scars. The only game I have had against them so far was 1 game against a semi-biker army with a Land Raider Achilles. But I am glad to play against them, even if it's in the tournament. I'd love to see how my wraithwing crons can pick them apart.
I think this will be a bad matchup for my opponent. One of the main strengths of the new White Scars is their grav-guns. Well, my wraiths could care less about those grav-guns. One of the biggest weaknesses of a biker army is against flyers. Hello night scythes! Stormtalons give them some anti-flyer firepower but the problem is, he is going first. That means most likely my flyers will be coming in after his. Thunderfires are good units. Unfortunately for my opponent, I don't really care about them either. If I spread out, most likely he will be hitting 1 or 2 models at most per hit. They won't be able to do nearly enough damage to my wraiths. I think, barring extreme dice, I should be able to take this game quite handily. I just hope I am not under-estimating my opponent and his army too much.
My deployment. I spread out due to 1) thunderfires and 2) his Chapter Master's orbital bombardment.
I place some wraiths on the ruins to minimize the impact of his barrage attacks. I also try to fit as much of my barges as possible underneath the ruins.
Overview of our deployment. Dan decides not to Scout forwards. He doesn't want to get closer to my wraiths but rather, move away from them.
Frontline MegaMat Plugin: Ok, time for a commercial break. Haha....j.k. But seriously, I forgot to mention this in my 1st 2 reports, but we are playing on the new MegaMats by Frontline Gaming and TableWar. All I can say is....wow! These mats are amazing! They look awesome and they feel great as well! During the game, both Dan and I had beers on these mats and they tend to condensate, leaving a wet spot on the mats. Well, they wiped off very easily from the mats and without warping or distorting the map. After the tournament, I became a believer and got a mat right there and then (I also wanted to get some of their terrain as well but those were not for sale ). I believe the MegaMats are still available for order on Frontline's website ( http://www.frontlinegaming.org/blog/ ) but only in limited quantities. So if you like what you see, get them now before they run out (and believe me, they will run out!).
Ok, end of shameless plugin. Back to your regularly scheduled battle report.
I don't bother to steal the initiative and we begin.
Dan moves his bikers to about exactly 24" from my guys.
1 unit of bikers tries to flank me.
His shooting only manages to put 1W on my Warlord.
I have a somewhat-close-call. His right-most bikers fire at my annihilation barge (AB) and he roll's 2 6's on armour penetration against one of my AB's! That means if I fail my cover, then it is immobilized and basically worthless (and away from claiming an objective). Fortunately for me, I make both saves.
Necrons 1
Spoiler:
Wraiths advance.
I go after his flanking bikers.
Both barges fire at them and manage only to kill 2.
However, in a stroke of bad luck for my opponent, they then fail Morale and run off the table, thus giving me First Blood!
My last AB, despite snap-shooting, manages to kill 1 biker.
Wraiths then run.
Space Marines 2
Spoiler:
1 stormtalon comes in. Darn. I was hoping that they both would.
Now Dan has a decision to make.
He could either backup and shoot some more or he could play aggressively, advance and assault. I tried to use my Jedi mind tricks to "persuade" him to backup and shoot another turn, citing that his Chapter Master hasn't had the chance to use his orbital bombardment yet. And it almost worked!
However, what changed his mind was that my wraiths were too close to his thunderfires (TFC's). Had he backed up, he was concerned that I would be able to assault both of his TFC's. Dammit....I knew I shouldn't have ran with my wraiths.
Dan, in any case, you made the right move. That is what I would have done as well.
He advances his bikers.
Shooting kills 1 wraith and puts 1W on my D-lord and another wraith.
To my other squad, he shoots down my Warlord and 2 wraiths.
Stormtalon manages to glance my AB once.
Fortunately for me, my Warlord gets back up!
BTW, my rule-of-thumb is this: if my Lords get back up at least twice in any game, then I win. Period. It's a proven fact.
We then go into assault as he charges both of my wraithstars.
We tie combat here with 2W apiece.
Over here, my opponent actually beats me pretty badly, killing 2 wraiths and only losing 1 biker.
Necrons 2
Spoiler:
All 3 of my flyers come in. I have no real good targets as all of Dan's bikers are locked in combat. Thus, I go after his TFC's, which by the ways are getting 2+ cover.
The 3rd night scythe goes after his talon....
....and blows it sky-high.
My other 2 flyers fail to cause a successful unsaved wound on his TFC.
My unengaged wraith unit assaults into his HQ's combat. I kill a few bikers, he kills another 2 wraiths and then his bikers Hit-&-Run out of combat.
In this melee, I actually win combat and his bikers flee. However, they will auto-regroup next turn.
So far, this match is turning out to be a more closely-fought and a much bloodier match than I had expected.
Space Marines 3
Spoiler:
My opponent's last stormtalon comes in, shoots and takes away 1 HP from my night scythe.
Bikers get ready to do the same-old-same-old, which is to shoot and charge in with his bikes again.
BTW, that is a brilliant strategy by my opponent. Basically, he gets to double his offense against my wraiths by shooting and assaulting them every turn (don't forget S5 Hammer of Wrath hits!) while at the same time, avoiding my shooting. Damn, Hit-&-Run is soooo good.
Anyways, he shoots down another 1 wraith.
Oh noes....my Warlord goes down again!
Bah! This time he stays down.
We begin the assaults.
Bikers actually win both combats, killing a couple more wraiths!
Man....Dan's army is actually giving me much more trouble than I had thought!
Necrons 3
Spoiler:
Both flyers advance. I drop off my immortals. That's the difference between immortals and warriors. With warriors, you pop them out and you lose them. With immortals, they are much more likely to survive. Thus, you can afford to play them more aggressively.
I shoot down 4 scouts, who are forced to go-to-ground.
This is another reason for me to take immortals. They can clear out those MSU scoring units because of their AP4 guns that normal warriors can't.
My 3rd scythe goes after the last stormtalon. Unfortunately, I fail to take it out due to good jink saves (or poor shooting, don't really remember).
I kill off one of his TFC's with my night scythes.
Shooting and then assault by my D-lord's unit kills all but the 2 characters - Khan and his Chapter Master. They then Hit-&-Run out of combat.
Space Marines 4
Spoiler:
His stormtalon flies off the table.
Khan and Chapter Master joins another biker unit. They go after my unit of 2 wraiths....
....and take them both out with shooting.
Unfortunately for me, my flyers are out of position to target them next turn.
Necrons 4
Spoiler:
Things are going very fast now and I am taking less pictures due to time.
Flyers fly off the table.
Immortals finish off the lone scout with shooting.
I shoot at his units and kill some bikers as well as his Warlord, Khan. I then charge into his Chapter Master's unit, issue a challenge and then Mindshackle him. He would then make all of his 3++ saves (I think) and Hit-&-Run out of combat.
Finally, I have a unit of 1 wraith, who assault his last TFC. They stay stuck in combat.
Space Marines 5
Spoiler:
My opponent tries to immobilize my AB away from his objective with a grav-gun. He fails.
Chapter Master and biker re-assault my wraithstar after, of course, shooting at them first.
BTW, he grabs the Relic this turn! Uh oh....
Crap....he's down! And he doesn't get back up!
Uh oh....my lords only get back up once this game. That means I may actually lose....
Necrons 5
Spoiler:
My barge jumps on top of a Big Gun objective.
My other barge on top of the ruins jump down onto a Big Gun objective. I then blow away his lone grav-gunner contesting my objective.
Wraith continues to stay stuck in combat with his techmarine and would continue to do so for the rest of the game. We are both contesting the objective there.
In combat, I kill off his Chapter Master (who took a couple of wounds from before)!
But I need to kill off his attack bike, who is holding the Relic.
We roll to see if the game goes on but it doesn't!
Wow, that was a much, much tougher fight than I had thought. That's what happens when you are not that familiar with an army. I fell into Dan's trap and let him shoot and assault me all game. And throughout the game, Dan was actually rolling below-average. Had he been rolling more average, he might have actually stolen this game from me!
Dan played a brilliant game. His strategy of shooting my wraiths, then assaulting them and hitting them with S5 Hammer of Wraths, then leaving combat at the end of my turn and then doing it all over again worked phenomonally well. One of the most dangerous things about my army is actually my shooting. With his strategy, Dan was able to actually avoid my shooting for his important units. Thus, he basically cut my offense in half. The only thing I could shoot at was either the non-essential units like the stormtalons or the difficult to kill ones like his TFC's with 2+ cover. Had I been more aware of White Scars strategies, I would have played a little differently.
In any case, I was thrilled to get to play Dan and his bikers. I have always wanted to play against his bikers ever since he won the Feast of Blades Open. Well, the LVO was as good a place as any to finally be able to do so. Thanks, Dan, for the game. It was a close and hard-fought game, which made it a great one (at least for me).
Jim always has my number. Or has bribed my dice. Either way, they are always fun games and usually close (usually).
Spoiler:
Someday I'll get you Jim, soooommeeeedaaaay! <shakes fist at sky>
Khan on Moondraken
Chapter Master, Bike, Shield Eternal, Power Fist, Art Armor
5 Bikes 2 Flamers, Combi Flamer
4 Bikes + Attack Bike- 2x Grav, Combi Grav, Multi Melta
4 Bikes + Attack Bike- 2x Grav, Combi Grav, Multi Melta
4 Bikes + Attack Bike- 2x Grav, Combi Grav, Multi Melta
4 Bikes + Attack Bike- 2x Grav, Combi Grav, Multi Melta
5 Sniper Scouts
Storm Talon, Skyhammer
Storm Talon, Skyhammer
Thunderfire
Thunderfire
Given my loss to you was close I made it to table 8 in round 5 to play for the last finals spot, but then had to play Darkwynn who crushed me! Still I had 5 great games against tough opponents and a totally awesome time.
Asmodai Asmodean wrote: The truth is Daemons struggle against Wraithwing since they're actually worse than the Wraiths in cc, and get forced to take DI tests en masse. Also, Abarge shooting > Daemon shooting.
If only the screamerstar could get hit and run, maybe it would be much more useful (totally broken).
Fixed that for you... Plus MSS is really bad news versus any unit at Ld7. Daemons can best the toaster heads but you have to bring a solid battle plan to the table to succeed.
Captn Dees wrote: Jim always has my number. Or has bribed my dice. Either way, they are always fun games and usually close (usually).
Spoiler:
Someday I'll get you Jim, soooommeeeedaaaay! <shakes fist at sky>
Khan on Moondraken
Chapter Master, Bike, Shield Eternal, Power Fist, Art Armor
5 Bikes 2 Flamers, Combi Flamer
4 Bikes + Attack Bike- 2x Grav, Combi Grav, Multi Melta
4 Bikes + Attack Bike- 2x Grav, Combi Grav, Multi Melta
4 Bikes + Attack Bike- 2x Grav, Combi Grav, Multi Melta
4 Bikes + Attack Bike- 2x Grav, Combi Grav, Multi Melta
5 Sniper Scouts
Storm Talon, Skyhammer
Storm Talon, Skyhammer
Thunderfire
Thunderfire
Given my loss to you was close I made it to table 8 in round 5 to play for the last finals spot, but then had to play Darkwynn who crushed me! Still I had 5 great games against tough opponents and a totally awesome time.
Most people already know the results. But there are some of those who don't. That's why I don't normally reveal the endings until the end, for those select few who don't follow the tournament results.
How did your opponent have the str5 hammer of wrath CT and also have the hit and run CT. Arn't you only able to take one chapter trait per chapter per detachment?
Unless I and every player I've ever played since the SM book came out is wrong: you get both in the White Scars Chapter Tactic. You don't choose which of "Born in the Saddle" and "Fight on the Move" from the CT, you get both under the White Scar Chapter Tactic.
I believe the same is true of all the Chapter Tactics. You aren't choosing what bits of the CT, you just get the whole CT for the Chapter.
It was a great game, and we both played really well.
My one mistake was being too greedy at the beginning, and then a bit unlucky in failing that LD. That first blood was basically the decider, but there was no guarantee I would have gotten that point anyway.
AND if I recall the game actually went on too, another turn or maybe even two (too much beer that whole weekend to remember details). However it was basically a slap fight that worked in my favor to hold that relic.
So while I had some bad luck I had some good luck to claw out some points to keep me in the running for the finals.
Jy2 is slowly become my arch nemesis it would seem.
Arnt they two CT per one chapter. According to the book do you choose one chapter tactic after choosing your chapter. Im paraphrasing so that description may not be 100% accurate.
So you
A. Choose your chapter (White Scars)
B. Choose your chapter Tactic (Born in the saddle) or (Fight on the Move)
If you have a White Scars army, you get Born in the Saddle and Fight on the Move as your Chapter Tactic. The same way that IF ( and their successors ) get Bolter Drill and Tank Hunters ( for Dev squads and Cent Devs ).
Just because it is split into 2 parts, does not mean you have to pick one of them.
Great reports and the cooler, a very funny miniwargaming.com reference... very good !! Keep it going, still learning ans still enjoying
I would love to see you use Space Wolves sometime, beesides the Land Raider list you did...Any chance of that happening soon or if/when the new codex comes out?
Very fine report. It was tight match. White scars aint the easiest opponents for wraithwing
Moreover if you dont know this army you may fall in some traps, but it is general rule for every army
I have small hint you if you dont know this army- watch out for even more menacing form of bikers army I mean WS allied with DA Theyre specialised in killing wraithwing in my opinion. They own much more dangerous shooting (plasma talons combined with rad granade= obvious instanting our wraiths), divination from da libby and also white scars may have some tricks for better close combat e.g. land speeder storm (which causes blind on wraiths- much more easier to kill them in assault that way).
ansacs wrote: Great games so far. Jim you just went and tanked all these poor people chances at top 8. Great job.
Lookin forward to the continuation and thanks for the batreps as always.
There's so many good players at this tournament that it's hard not to run into them the deeper you get into the tournament, though I must say that getting to face Lyzz in round #2 was a real treat.
How did your opponent have the str5 hammer of wrath CT and also have the hit and run CT. Arn't you only able to take one chapter trait per chapter per detachment?
Don't have my Marine codex with me, but I believe you get all of the Chapter traits.
Yeah. Dan played really well and I just wasn't familiar enough with White Scars tactics to formulate a good game plan against them.
Captn Dees wrote: It was a great game, and we both played really well.
My one mistake was being too greedy at the beginning, and then a bit unlucky in failing that LD. That first blood was basically the decider, but there was no guarantee I would have gotten that point anyway.
AND if I recall the game actually went on too, another turn or maybe even two (too much beer that whole weekend to remember details). However it was basically a slap fight that worked in my favor to hold that relic.
So while I had some bad luck I had some good luck to claw out some points to keep me in the running for the finals.
Jy2 is slowly become my arch nemesis it would seem.
Thanks Dan.
This game was sort of a reversal of my Game #2 against Lyzz. In that game, she wasn't familiar with my army, which led to my win against her. In our game, I just wasn't familiar enough with the new White Scars and almost lost because of that. If your dice was slightly better (no, not better but slightly more average), you might have won this one. In any case, I under-estimated your army and tactics in this game.
Yeah, the game actually went on to T6 but since I didn't take a lot of pictures near the end, my memory was a little off. Basically, the game ended with neither of us able to kill each other off in assault. More importantly, it ended with me not being able to kill off your Attack bike with the Relic.
I think it was usually a 3+ cover (bolstered ruin) aside a turn of night fight if I recall. At some point I think I had to make some 2+ techmarine armor saves too, but it was just volume of fire that brought the one down.
Also this was a rematch of sorts from two years ago at Golden Throne in 2012. I had taken the bikes back then and he had beaten me in another close game with the Necrons. That was really my first Wraithwing game and it took be by surprise then. I remember us talking about it afterward and us going how what actually kills wraiths best is just lots of Bolter fire. It just turns out that the new CT makes them able to do that a lot more often usually.
So I had a solid plan, it just didn't materialize which happens. Even if I had gotten through the Wraiths a bit better there is no guarantee I win that game as you still had lots of scoring and the like running around at the end (between troops and heavies).
Plus Jy2 can really capitalize on mistakes, so it seems any error you make you'll be made to pay!
dantay_xv wrote: Great reports and the cooler, a very funny miniwargaming.com reference... very good !! Keep it going, still learning ans still enjoying
I would love to see you use Space Wolves sometime, beesides the Land Raider list you did...Any chance of that happening soon or if/when the new codex comes out?
Must be pure coincidence as I didn't know about the miniwargaming reference.
Yeah, I'll bring back my TAC Space Wolves one of these days. I think that they've still got what it takes to do well in competitive play.
SwistakCZC wrote: Very fine report. It was tight match. White scars aint the easiest opponents for wraithwing
Moreover if you dont know this army you may fall in some traps, but it is general rule for every army
I have small hint you if you dont know this army- watch out for even more menacing form of bikers army I mean WS allied with DA Theyre specialised in killing wraithwing in my opinion. They own much more dangerous shooting (plasma talons combined with rad granade= obvious instanting our wraiths), divination from da libby and also white scars may have some tricks for better close combat e.g. land speeder storm (which causes blind on wraiths- much more easier to kill them in assault that way).
White Scars are much better than I had thought. I completely under-estimated them in this game. Now I can see why they are a top-tier army. I honestly didn't expect to have as much trouble as I did in this game.
But don't get me wrong. I still think my wraithwing necrons are a bad matchup for them, and now with some experience under my belt, you can bet next time I play against them, I will expect to thoroughly dominate them (please Dice Gods...don't make me eat my words).
I think it was usually a 3+ cover (bolstered ruin) aside a turn of night fight if I recall. At some point I think I had to make some 2+ techmarine armor saves too, but it was just volume of fire that brought the one down.
Also this was a rematch of sorts from two years ago at Golden Throne in 2012. I had taken the bikes back then and he had beaten me in another close game with the Necrons. That was really my first Wraithwing game and it took be by surprise then. I remember us talking about it afterward and us going how what actually kills wraiths best is just lots of Bolter fire. It just turns out that the new CT makes them able to do that a lot more often usually.
So I had a solid plan, it just didn't materialize which happens. Even if I had gotten through the Wraiths a bit better there is no guarantee I win that game as you still had lots of scoring and the like running around at the end (between troops and heavies).
Plus Jy2 can really capitalize on mistakes, so it seems any error you make you'll be made to pay!
Lol. I was hoping on T2 that you would back up and shoot at my wraiths some more. I even tried to persuade you to do so and I think you almost did....if only my wraiths weren't so close to your TFC's (about 17-18" away). I knew I shouldn't have ran my wraiths!
Anyways, it's a good thing you played them aggressively, otherwise that would have been a big mistake and I was getting ready to make you pay for it with a crapload of tesla shooting next turn.
In any case, very well played Dan. Your bikers are indeed formidable.
3. Big Gun mysterious objective +1 cover to 1 scoring unit....2+.
Ah yep, forgot about that one guy could claim that thing too.
Also just remembering my own orbital bombardment scatter on my own guys killing one. There was a reason I had the DA libby on a bike added at the Feast of Blades Open (Prescience and Fearless)!
Great battle there I can't complain about any moves either player made. I do like the idea of allying in DA with WS I think that that could make for a pretty lethal combo. Good job to both players!
The primary and secondary are both worth 4 points? I thought primary was 4, secondary was 3, and 3 points for warlord, first blood, linebreaker for a total of 10. You should of tied, no?
Agtthot wrote: The primary and secondary are both worth 4 points? I thought primary was 4, secondary was 3, and 3 points for warlord, first blood, linebreaker for a total of 10. You should of tied, no?
I got Secondary + First Blood + Warlord + Linebreaker = 3 + 1 + 1 +1 = 6.
Agtthot wrote: The primary and secondary are both worth 4 points? I thought primary was 4, secondary was 3, and 3 points for warlord, first blood, linebreaker for a total of 10. You should of tied, no?
I got Secondary + First Blood + Warlord + Linebreaker = 3 + 1 + 1 +1 = 6.
He got Primary + Warlord = 4 + 1 = 5.
Ah, I see now. I read 4pts for secondary and missed linebreaker.
See someone mentioned white scars and DA's above, currently running a white scars with two CM's, 8 grav guns, lot of bikers and to top it off, 10 black knights with 2 nade launchers. Played necrons with 15 wraiths and mini spyder star, rad nades and plasma talons (and krak nades! LOL) insta killing wraiths, rad nades and orbital bombardents insta killing spyders, it wasnt pretty..... Lacks AA though (will try the stalker out soon). Add in hit and run and the the fact it is troop heavy, it is a quite good army....
Nice report, Jim! Going into this tournament, I had also had absolutely zero experience against White Scars. Kind of a steep learning curve, especially when great players are playing them. Well done on adapting and finding a way to win this one though - it was much closer than I thought it would be after the first couple turns. Best kind of game
MarkyMark wrote: See someone mentioned white scars and DA's above, currently running a white scars with two CM's, 8 grav guns, lot of bikers and to top it off, 10 black knights with 2 nade launchers. Played necrons with 15 wraiths and mini spyder star, rad nades and plasma talons (and krak nades! LOL) insta killing wraiths, rad nades and orbital bombardents insta killing spyders, it wasnt pretty..... Lacks AA though (will try the stalker out soon). Add in hit and run and the the fact it is troop heavy, it is a quite good army....
Yup thats why I do think that its not so easy to win for wraithwing Pure WS have not very efficient thunder cannon. Libby with dvination with command sqaud armed with plasma talons and rad nades can really make a difference. Land speeder storm is dangerous too indeed blinded wraiths dont fight well trust me I recommend to test it, it can be amazing, sincerely.
Lack of AA is really a problem, but being in close combat limits firepower. You as WS/DA player can bring hunter/stalker and/or storm talons, if you dont have to go first you are able to damage flyers and control necron troops better. Even 5 plasma talons on command squad can be devastating on rapid fire, since theyre tl.
Nevertheless Jy played it well and if he had known this army better he would win. So I dont think its hopeless matchup like broadside&rapetide taudar, but not easy too.
y0disisray wrote: Great battle there I can't complain about any moves either player made. I do like the idea of allying in DA with WS I think that that could make for a pretty lethal combo. Good job to both players!
DA or Space Wolves would both make for great allies with WS.
Dozer Blades wrote: That was one hell of a game. Well played on both sides !
Thanks!
MarkyMark wrote: See someone mentioned white scars and DA's above, currently running a white scars with two CM's, 8 grav guns, lot of bikers and to top it off, 10 black knights with 2 nade launchers. Played necrons with 15 wraiths and mini spyder star, rad nades and plasma talons (and krak nades! LOL) insta killing wraiths, rad nades and orbital bombardents insta killing spyders, it wasnt pretty..... Lacks AA though (will try the stalker out soon). Add in hit and run and the the fact it is troop heavy, it is a quite good army....
That combo can and will definitely catch many people by surprise. But once they become aware of it, I don't think it is as bad. The trade-off is less bodies and less grav guns. That means this type of army will probably struggle against many Eldar and Tau builds. But I could be wrong as I've never faced such an army before. With the migration from most DA biker armies to White Scars, I'm assuming that WS is the better, more balanced biker build.
Xaereth wrote: Nice report, Jim! Going into this tournament, I had also had absolutely zero experience against White Scars. Kind of a steep learning curve, especially when great players are playing them. Well done on adapting and finding a way to win this one though - it was much closer than I thought it would be after the first couple turns. Best kind of game
Thanks! And congrats on your 6-5 win game #3 against Pajamapants as well. The level of competition at the LVO is pretty stiff. Both of us into game #3 and we're both already playing against GT winners. And to think that there was potentially another 5 games to go!
I knew they could H-&-R out of combat, but the combination as well as effectiveness of the shooting, assaulting, getting out and doing it all over again all game definitely caught me by surprise. The only thing I regret was not rolling a lot more rends in combat. LOL!!!
Mythra wrote: The White scars guy looks like the pilot from Firefly.
You mean this guy?
Spoiler:
The resemblance is so uncanny that, had I not known better, would have mistaken them for twins! Haha....j.k.
MarkyMark wrote: See someone mentioned white scars and DA's above, currently running a white scars with two CM's, 8 grav guns, lot of bikers and to top it off, 10 black knights with 2 nade launchers. Played necrons with 15 wraiths and mini spyder star, rad nades and plasma talons (and krak nades! LOL) insta killing wraiths, rad nades and orbital bombardents insta killing spyders, it wasnt pretty..... Lacks AA though (will try the stalker out soon). Add in hit and run and the the fact it is troop heavy, it is a quite good army....
Yup thats why I do think that its not so easy to win for wraithwing Pure WS have not very efficient thunder cannon. Libby with dvination with command sqaud armed with plasma talons and rad nades can really make a difference. Land speeder storm is dangerous too indeed blinded wraiths dont fight well trust me I recommend to test it, it can be amazing, sincerely.
Lack of AA is really a problem, but being in close combat limits firepower. You as WS/DA player can bring hunter/stalker and/or storm talons, if you dont have to go first you are able to damage flyers and control necron troops better. Even 5 plasma talons on command squad can be devastating on rapid fire, since theyre tl.
Nevertheless Jy played it well and if he had known this army better he would win. So I dont think its hopeless matchup like broadside&rapetide taudar, but not easy too.
While that army may be better at killing my wraiths, honestly, I think my army would have done better against it and I'll tell you why. With the threat of my wraiths insta-dying, I'd have played a lot more conservatively against that type of army. That means I'd have held my wraiths back more and rely more on my firepower. Teslas are a powerful weapon against the more Elitist armies and I'm betting a DA/WS combo would probably have less bodies than a WS army. But that's just my theoryhammer. I could be completely wrong. Lol.
It's Day #2 and it's a good thing the tournament doesn't start until 12 noon. In the morning time, my roommate and I decided to take a stroll along the strip. So while walking, I see these frozen drinks (pictured above) that looked absolutely delicious. I decided to give one a try (we both did). After all, we were in Vegas and I had to try out a little of the "local" flavors that you won't really find anywhere else (at least not in Cali). Now I knew there was some alcohol in it. I just didn't know how strong. My roommate told me there was something called Everclear in there, whatever that was. Should've figured it out when he only bought a drink half the size of mine. Haha. So I'm a pretty small dude and I hadn't eaten anything at all all morning. By the time we got back to the tournament, we were both pretty wasted already (at least I was). Ok, NOW I'm ready to play.
1750 Pure Necrons (My list)
Destroyer Lord - 2+, Mindshackle Scarabs, ResOrb - Move Through Cover 12" Destroyer Lord - 2+, Mindshackle Scarabs, ResOrb
5x Immortals - Gauss Blasters, Night Scythe
5x Immortals - Gauss Blasters, Night Scythe
5x Warriors - Night Scythe
My opponent for the game, Justin C., was from San Diego. Now I've heard from Reece, who used to live in San Diego, that the players there are very good. I later talked to Justin before the game about his crons and he told me he was one of the better necron players down there in SD. Such modesty. I, of course, don't hold back with modesty, especially with so much of that good drink inside of me, and told him that he was about the face the best Necron player in the whole wide world! HAHAHAHA....I kid, of course, but even in my state, I could tell that, despite my dulled senses, I can't really take Justin's crons lightly. We're both 3-0 and he's got to be really good to make it here thus far.
I was also feeling slightly depressed. I actually didn't want to be the one to knock out another Necron player from the running. Instead I was hoping to keep my streak of playing another GT winner alive - either Nick Rose's hybrid Eldar (Darkwynn, many GT's) or Justin Cook's Ovesa-star (thanatos67, Nova 2013). I was also hoping to get paired up against Adam's (Xaereth's) Beaststar Deldar. Instead, I get Necrons. Not to knock on Justin, who was a very nice guy, but I really didn't want to fight against a mirror-match. I prefered to beat up on Tau or Eldar, which I haven't faced thus far in this tournament. But what's done is done. My feelings of depression was but for a flickering moment. Now my killer instincts are back on and I will show no mercy to whoever gets in my way. Necrons, prepare for annihilation!
Destroyer Lord - 2+, Mindshackle Scarabs - Counter-attack in own deployment.
10x Immortals - Tesla
Night Scythe
10x Immortals - Tesla
Night Scythe
10x Immortals - Tesla
Night Scythe
This is going to be an interesting matchup. Justin's army is more troop-centric with 30 resilient Immortals. My army is more offensive-minded with 2 Destroyer Lords and more wraiths. So my wraiths outnumber his wraiths and I've got 2 D-lords to his 1. I should win that battle. However, he's got much better shooting support than me, so he's much more likely to wear down my wraiths before we both even get into the inevitable combat that was written in the stars. If he can somehow neutralize my numbers advantage with his shooting, I'm going to have a much harder time trying to shift his 30 troops off of their objectives than he will have of taking my 15 troops off of mine. It's almost a coin flip as to who may come out the victor. No, I take that back. It's not a coin flip. Whoever is going 2nd has a huge advantage in this game and I am happy to say that Necrons will be going 2nd in this game.
Justin's deployment really threw me in for a loop.
I am just so indoctrinated to the fact that Necron players always deploy their troops in their flyers that I didn't even think to consider that he would deploy them on the table (plus my senses were a little dulled. ). But he did the right thing. He needs their firepower from Turn 1 against my wraiths, and if they become threatened, he could always just embark them back onto his night scythes when they come in. Just from his deployment, I could tell that Justin was a very experienced Necron player.
Necrons move. Wraiths actually move backwards slightly. He is planning on using them for counter-assault purposes.
Basically, I setup my wraiths to deny shooting from his immortals (i.e. out of range or out of LOS).
Barges move forwards.
1 barge is out of range to shoot at my wraiths and thus shoots at my barges, causing 1 HP or damage.
With only 2 barges shooting, he manages to cause 4W, all on my 2 D-lords!!!
My goodness, what the heck just happened? That was an awesome display of shooting (and arcing) by my opponent.
Immortals then run.
Jy-crons 1
Spoiler:
I advance, taking care to utilize the central LOS-blocking terrain to shield myself from my opponent's immortals.
I go after his troops, but it takes all 3 of my barges just to bring down 5 immortals.
2 then get back up.
My wraiths then run.
Ok so in my shooting, I cause only 3 wounds.
Whereas in my opponent's shooting, he causes 5 wounds (of which 4 are on 2+ models) and 1 HP of damage as well. Hmmm.....
Justin-crons 2
Spoiler:
NONE of his flyers come in!!!
Wraiths come out to play. His left barge moves away.
Immortals and right AB adjust their positions.
Shooting puts a bunch of wounds all over and kills 1 wraith.
Justin makes the assault with his Warlord-less unit of wraiths.
His Warlord's unit is waiting to counter-attack.
I kill 2 of his wraiths and cause a couple of wounds. He wipes out all of my wraiths, leaving my D-lord alone by himself. Fortunately for me, my D-lord passes morale.
More importantly, Justin gets First Blood for wiping out my wraiths.
Another great turn for my opponent. First of all, none of his flyers come in, thus negating my advantage of going 2nd. Then he is able to wipe out 1 unit of wraiths for First Blood. As I suspected, looks like it's going to be another bloody battle.
Jy-crons 2
Spoiler:
So I still have 11 wraiths to his 10 and 2 D-lords (though with only 1W each) to his 1. However, there is still a big disparity between our troops as his outnumbers mine 27 to 15. Moreover, now Justin is getting the alpha-strike against my night scythes. I think it's safe to say that he has the advantage now.
But that didn't phase me one bit. My goal is still the same....to crush anyone who gets in my way.
Only 1 of my night scythes (with warriors) come in. Yeah!
I go after both his barge and his wraiths locked in combat with my D-lord.
AB's will continue to focus on his troops. I need to get them down to more manageable numbers.
Night scythe wipes out the scarabs. I really don't want them hitting my barges next turn.
Barges manage only to shoot down 4 immortals.
Then 3 gets back up.
Smaller unit of wraiths make the charge.
As do my wraithstar unit.
The barge doesn't stand a chance.
I actually do poorly in combat, killing only 2 of his wraiths but losing 1 wraith and my Warlord in return.
Fortunately for me, my Warlord gets back up!
Justin-crons 3
Spoiler:
Overview of the top of Turn 3.
Only 1 of his flyers come in.
Never thought that bad reserves could be so good. I really needed for more of his flyers to come in.
In a bit of a bad break for my opponent, he immobilizes his AB while trying to move it.
As I expected, his Warlord prepares to counter-assault my wraiths.
Immortals line up to try to shoot down my Warlord.
I am fortunate not to lose my scythe from his shooting, but he does manage to take off 1 HP and force my flyer to jink.
More importantly, my Warlord survives fire from 2 units of immortals and his AB. Whewwww....
His wraithstar enters into the melee.
It is a bloodbath, with each of us losing 3 wraiths.
I'm happy to take this round. It could have gone down a lot worse for me.
Jy-crons 3
Spoiler:
I only get 1 flyer in from reserves as well. My other night scythe flies off the table. AB's continue to go after his troops.
I disembark my immortals into terrain. The way my opponent was rolling for his immortals, I need all the firepower I can get!
Plus, there is an objective there (where my immortals disembarked).
My Warlord joins the other unit of wraiths and I prepare for my own "welcoming party".
So the combined firepower of my night scythe, 3 AB's and my immortals take down 7 of his troops.
Well, actually only 5 after 2 gets back up.
I then assault my Warlord into combat.
He then kills 3 of my wraiths to my 1. WTF?!?
Justin-crons 4
Spoiler:
His scythes go after my scythe.
Immortals back away from my wraiths and head towards the objectives. His barge focuses on my night scythe as well.
It (my flyer) dies, but my immortals survive the firepower of his immortals and 1 night scythe.
His immortals then charge in. 1 dies to my Overwatch.
It is a slapfight that results in no kills. His immortal, however, does get back up. BTW, we are both contesting the objective.
My opponent is rolling like a boss for his Reanimation rolls all game!
Wraiths continue to remain locked in combat.
Jy-crons 4
Spoiler:
My flyers come in. I go after his flyers and troops.
I wipe out his unit of 8 immortals, opting to ignore his flyer.
In combat, I reduce his Warlord down to 1W left as I pass my MSS test and he doesn't in a challenge. I then kill off 2 of his wraiths.
Justin-crons 5
Spoiler:
His flyer comes in and goes after my flyer.
I'm not sure if my opponent has noticed or not, but I actually want him to kill 1 of my flyers. That is because I am now out of position with regards to my own Emperor's Will objective. If the game ends after 5, I'm not sure I'll be able to grab it, so I am hoping that he kills 1 of my flyers so that my troops can come back in next turn to grab my Emperor's Will objective.
Immortals move towards a Crusade objective. Uh oh....I actually didn't see that objective hidden from my view by the terrain!
He takes the bait and shoots down 1 of my flyers. Yes!
Actually, he shoots down both of my flyers! Nooooo!
However, I wipe out his Warlord and wraiths in combat and consolidate to contest the Crusade objective!
Jy-crons 5
Spoiler:
Winning combat was huge! Now I've got this game in the bag.
Both my warriors and my immortals walk on to grab my EW objective.
It's just a matter of time before the inevitable. My Warlord goes off on his own after the other immortals.
I down his flyer with my barges.
Wraiths wipe out the unit of immortals on the Crusade objective.
Immortals continue to do nothing to each other in combat.
If the game ends right now, I've got the Secondary, Emperor's Will, but neither of us has the Primary, which is Crusade.
We roll and the game continues.
Justin-crons 6
Spoiler:
Not much happens. He goes after my troops....
....and manages only to bring down 2 warriors.
Jy-crons 6
Spoiler:
I go in for the kill with my Warlord and wipe out his immortals in assault, thus giving my immortals the Crusade objective as well.
So I take both the Primary and the Secondary. I also get his Warlord as well as Linebreaker (my wraiths). Justin gets First Blood for taking out my wraiths first.
It was good deployment, tricky. He can hide immo back on scythes but on the other hand he can put a lot of additional shots on your wraiths, statistically 3 wraiths down a turn with 24" range, immortals may work as bubble wrap or may even assault with the rest of wraiths, they provide many options (but of course typical build is more powerful in my opinion). Im waiting for next rounds uploaded
Nicely done, it looked pretty tight right up till the end there, Am I right in thinking that you kept your troops in the flyers to help keep them alive for te endgame allowing you to take the objectives whereas Justin did the opposite and ultimately allowed you to concentrate on killing his off, even at the risk of losing flyers in turn 4?
Another good battle report, thanks for sharing with us
dantay_xv wrote: Nicely done, it looked pretty tight right up till the end there, Am I right in thinking that you kept your troops in the flyers to help keep them alive for te endgame allowing you to take the objectives whereas Justin did the opposite and ultimately allowed you to concentrate on killing his off, even at the risk of losing flyers in turn 4?
Another good battle report, thanks for sharing with us
Keeping your troops in flyers for the last-turn objective grab is a very common Necron tactic. After all, they are the only army that can do it and do it accurately. That is why Justin's deployment threw me off. Very seldomly do necron players deploy their troops on the table, especially when they've got flyers for transports.
But in Justin's case, it was the right choice. Otherwise, he'd be playing at a huge disadvantage without their firepower to start off with. His strategy was this. Deploy and shoot at my wraiths Turn 1. My wraiths then moved forwards and he gets another shot at them again. That's 2 turns of shooting I would have to endure against his army.
But I reacted and counter-deployed against his army - deploying out of range (and LOS) of most of his immortals to deny him his Turn 1 shooting. Yeah, I would have much further to travel, but by counter-deploying, I actually negated his shooting advantage. On Turn 1, he couldn't shoot with them. Then on Turn 2, his shooting was minimal and we went straight to assault when his wraiths assaulted mine. After that, his immortals really had no targets. Basically, I did to Justin's army what my Game #3 opponent, Dan, did to my army.
Really good game there I thought it was going to end a lot closer than what it did. It was sad to see kind of somewhat of a mirror match in only Round 4 but it is what it is.
Mythra wrote: The White scars guy looks like the pilot from Firefly.
I usually get the "look like Anthony Michael Hall" then anything else. Even as we both got older we still look a lot alike.
Spoiler:
It doesn't help that I'm a goofball too.
BACK on topic, well done Jim! I was glad to see you pull out the win in the fairly reasonable mirror match. As you note it is hard to really out shoot necrons a lot but knowing that most of the weapons ranges are 24" can lead to some canny trickery. It's just making sure you can get the timing down right without getting shredded by Tesla! So great counter deploy to get off on the right foot that game.
Great game, Jim! Love reading about great players overcoming adversity and pulling off the win! It looked a little grim there for a while.
Loved riding in the elevator up to the gaming hall with you and Eric - didn't really expect you guys to get wasted in the morning before playing Day 2, after going undefeated on Day 1!
y0disisray wrote: Really good game there I thought it was going to end a lot closer than what it did. It was sad to see kind of somewhat of a mirror match in only Round 4 but it is what it is.
Thanks. It's not that I don't like mirror-matches. It's more that 1) I didn't want to be the one to knock out another Necron player from the tournament and 2) I wanted to beat up on some Tau or Eldar, especially this deep into the tournament. I swear, they've been ducking me all tournament. LOL!!!
Mythra wrote: The White scars guy looks like the pilot from Firefly.
I usually get the "look like Anthony Michael Hall" then anything else. Even as we both got older we still look a lot alike.
Spoiler:
It doesn't help that I'm a goofball too.
BACK on topic, well done Jim! I was glad to see you pull out the win in the fairly reasonable mirror match. As you note it is hard to really out shoot necrons a lot but knowing that most of the weapons ranges are 24" can lead to some canny trickery. It's just making sure you can get the timing down right without getting shredded by Tesla! So great counter deploy to get off on the right foot that game.
Yeah I definitely see the resemblance between you and your brother from another mother. Haha.
So far in all my tournament experiences, I have not lost a mirror-matchup. I actually had high confidence going into this game, especially when I won the roll to go 2nd. But it proved to be a much tighter game than I thought, at least until the end. In any case, it was a great game and I am glad I got to meet Justin. He was a very nice guy and also a great necron player as well.
Xaereth wrote: Great game, Jim! Love reading about great players overcoming adversity and pulling off the win! It looked a little grim there for a while.
Loved riding in the elevator up to the gaming hall with you and Eric - didn't really expect you guys to get wasted in the morning before playing Day 2, after going undefeated on Day 1!
Thanks. My strategy was to deny my opponent his firepower and in that regards, I succeeded. Then it was just a numbers game with my wraiths against his and I definitely had the advantage there. I was actually confident before the game that I could take it, but my opponent ended up giving me a tougher fight than I had expected.
I also under-estimated the potency of the drink that I got. Then again, maybe I did that on purpose. Anyways, great to have met you. I was hoping to play against your army, but I guess it will have to be some other time.
That seemed like a daunting challenge with the different deployment and the alcohol that was playing keep away with your senses Way to grab that one Jim! Looks like the tournament is going really well from what you have shared with us so far, I hope that it continued to go well for you! I think that taking Necrons was the right choice. At first I did think that Daemons would be better, but I now understand the full extent of your skill with the Crons.
Nice win against the crons. When your wraiths started dying and his immortals didn't I knew it was gonna be tough. Also for future reference everclear is almost 100% pure alcohol. I think it like 97% or 194 proof...
Yep ;p. I spent some time dating a girl from Rutgers it was good for teaching me 3 things. How destructive everclear is and how to make a damn good and damn potent jungle/Jesus/whatever you want to call it juice, and how delicious yuengling is. Which speaking of which massachusettes is finally getting yuengling distributed to us!!!
Doing well in a tournament takes a number of factors:
1. Skills as a tactician.
2. Know your army.
3. Know your opponent's army.
4. Matchups.
5. Some good rolls.
So far, I've been blessed in this tournament.
Commander_Farsight wrote: That seemed like a daunting challenge with the different deployment and the alcohol that was playing keep away with your senses Way to grab that one Jim! Looks like the tournament is going really well from what you have shared with us so far, I hope that it continued to go well for you! I think that taking Necrons was the right choice. At first I did think that Daemons would be better, but I now understand the full extent of your skill with the Crons.
Thanks.
Necrons are my best army and in a tournament as large as this one, I wanted to bring my best army. Daemons are good also, but sometimes, they have problems with consistency. But Daemons are an army that, when the dice goes their way, there isn't anybody they can't beat. Not even the seer council can stand up to a Daemon army firing on all cylinders.
Chancetragedy wrote: Nice win against the crons. When your wraiths started dying and his immortals didn't I knew it was gonna be tough. Also for future reference everclear is almost 100% pure alcohol. I think it like 97% or 194 proof...
No wonder.
I really don't know my alcohol too well....but actually, that might be a good thing.
Doing well in a tournament takes a number of factors:
1. Skills as a tactician.
2. Know your army.
3. Know your opponent's army.
4. Matchups.
5. Some good rolls.
So far, I've been blessed in this tournament.
You forgot the most important rule.... Playing the mission.
I would also add sticking to your plan. A lot of people will get flustered when things go bad and break away from what their list is designed to do.
That's a good one, though I'd probably group that under "skills as a tactician". A characteristic of a good general is that he knows what he needs to do in order to win, and that is usually to play the mission and not get distracted.
My game #5 opponent was another White Scars player and a very good player indeed....Eric Hoerger. He is a very successful tournament player, placing high consistently in many tournaments, including events such as the NovaOpen and Adepticon. He is also another GT winner as well, winning the St. Valentine's Day Massacre 2 years ago (ironically, he did it with wraithwing Necrons). Eric was also my roommate for this trip!
I actually didn't want to play against Eric for several reasons (and no, it wasn't because we were roommates):
1. I've actually played against Eric before at the ATC in what was a very close game:
I kind of wanted to play against someone whom I haven't played against before.
2. I just played against another very similar White Scars army in the tournament already. I kind of wanted to play against a different army.
3. I wanted to beat up on Eldar or Tau, especially this late in the tournament when I know that they are going to be commandeered by a very good general.
But alas, we don't always get what we want. That's too bad....because now my Necrons are going to have to add another biker army to their resume of roadkill in their quest for the LVO Championships. Muhahahaha....
1750 Pure Necrons (My list)
Destroyer Lord - 2+, Mindshackle Scarabs, ResOrb
Destroyer Lord - 2+, Mindshackle Scarabs, ResOrb
5x Immortals - Gauss Blasters, Night Scythe
5x Immortals - Gauss Blasters, Night Scythe
5x Warriors - Night Scythe
Aaarghh! I'm going 1st! I guess it was bound to happen. I went 2nd in my first 4 games. Now in the game where I arguably need it the most, I am going 1st.
At least I now have some experience playing against the Scars. As a matter of fact, earlier in the tournament, I played against a similar White Scars army (Game #3 vs Dan). That experience should prove invaluable. However, Eric is also very familiar with Necrons as well. After all, he did win a GT with Wraithwing Necrons before. In terms of experience, Eric's actually got the advantage over me. I am still getting the feel for the White Scars whereas my opponent is an expert in both armies.
But still, my army is potentially a bad matchup for my opponent. Again, my wraiths don't care about grav-guns. My opponent doesn't have much in the way of AA firepower and he also doesn't have many weapons that can destroy my annihilation barges (though he's welcome to fire his grav-guns into my barges as opposed to my wraiths ). Also, we are playing Big Guns. While Eric has got 2 hard-to-kill, scoring thunderfires (TFC's), I've got 3 hard-to-kill, scoring annihilation barges. All I need do is to park them on top of objectives and then I wouldn't even care if his grav-guns immobilize them.
I forget to take a picture of Eric's deployment, but he basically deploys his large biker unit and 2 thunderfire cannons (TFC's) in the very corner behind a LOS-blocking terrain.
Eric is playing very differently from my previous Game #3 opponent. Whereas Dan deployed basically his entire army, Eric has the majority of his army in reserves, with 4 units of 5 bikers outflanking and the scouts walking on.
They then run. Annihilation barges (AB's) turbo-boost.
I leave 1 unit of wraiths slightly back to play free safety.
Space Marines 1
Spoiler:
Marines bide their time.
TFC's end up killing only 1 wraith.
Necrons 2
Spoiler:
Only 1 night scythe comes in. I move it behind the ruins in anticipation of my opponent's stormtalons.
My army advances.
My shooting puts 1W on his character and kills a biker. My opponent would roll well for his saves. As a matter of fact, his rolling would set the tone for the entire game.
Wraiths then run some more.
Space Marines 2
Spoiler:
1 unit of bikers would come in on the very corner of my deployment zone (and onto a Big Gun objective).
Both talons would come in.
Actually, his whole army would come in! We don't need Comms Relay when we are rolling like this!
His command squad prepares for the offensive.
Talon knocks down my barge by shooting it in the butt for First Blood. He also gets a point for taking out one of my Heavy Supports for Big Guns.
Shooting by his bikers take down 1 wraith and put 1W on another.
Stormtalon takes out another wraith (from a separate unit).
TFC's take down a 3rd wraith (or it might have been from the outflanking bikers).
His command squad then charges.
Disaster strikes! I rolling poorly, not getting even a single rend, and then fail the majority of my saves. He wipes out my wraithstar!
Eric then gets a good consolidation roll and spreads out, thus preventing my D-lord from being able to get back up!
Necrons 3
Spoiler:
Last turn was a huge blow, but I've still got plenty of gas left in the tank.
My 2nd wraithstar prepares to counter-assault.
Another 1 night scythe comes in.
Shooting takes down 3 bikers....
....as well as 1 stormtalon.
I then charge in with my wraiths. Again, another poor round of combat for my crons as they fail miserably in assault. Not a single rend and once again, my opponent's saves were golden. I only kill 1 biker and lose 2 wraiths in return.
His command squad then Hit-&-Runs out of combat.
Space Marines 3
Spoiler:
Wow! 1 round of bad combat I can take. 2 rounds and now I'm in the hole. Unless things turn around quickly, this isn't looking very good for my crons.
Stormtalon goes after my wraiths.
Eric has still got a lot of bikers left.
His command squad gets ready to bring the pain again.
His bikers in my deployment zone swarm an objective.
Shooting takes down the lone wraith by itself (I believe this is from the stormtalon).
Bikers and TFC's take out another 2 wraiths and put 1W on a 3rd.
Bikers turbo-boost.
They shoot and then assault my barge.
2 biker units assault into my wraiths.
Krak grenades bring it down to just 1 HP left.
I lose 1 wraith in combat. My Warlord is also reduced to just 1W remaining.
Necrons 4
Spoiler:
I need a miracle this turn to try to get back in the game.
I decide to go after his troops on my objective in my deployment zone. Immortals disembark.
Since most of the units are in combat, I decide to go after his talon with my night scythe.
Barge moves back and takes a shot at his bikers.
Stormtalon crashes and burns.
I am flabbergasted. I put maybe about 15 wounds on his biker. He only loses 1!!!
This game just wasn't meant to be mine.
I lose my Warlord, who doesn't get back up, and 1 wraith. However, I actually win combat (I think by 1). As is characteristic of my opponent's dice all game, he rolls high, even for morale, and his command squad breaks. Fortunately for him, he doesn't roll high enough so that they run off the table (they are only about 1" from the table edge).
Space Marines 4
Spoiler:
Marines prepare to charge.
I don't expect my barge to survive.
His command squad auto-rallies and prepares to finish off the last of my wraiths.
Marines get another Big Gun VP.
No more wraiths.
Bikers shoot and then assault my immortals, killing 3.
They stay and then 2 gets back up.
Necrons 5
Spoiler:
This will be the last game turn due to time.
As the Relic is only secondary, I decide to ignore it and go after the Primary, Big Guns.
I admit defeat, but I am not going down without a fight. I disembark my immortals to deal with his bikers.
Warriors get off on another objective.
My last AB moves back onto another objective.
Shooting kills another 2 bikers. They stay.
In combat, Eric's bikers Hit-&-Run away from my immortals.
Space Marines 5
Spoiler:
My opponent leaves his bikes there to contest.
He's got his Big Gun objective here with scouts and the TFC.
Bikers go to contest another Big Gun objective.
I've got only 1 Big Gun objective. However, my opponent also gets +2 VP's for killing 2 of my Heavy Support choices.
Lastly, his command squad goes and grabs the Relic.
My opponent wins the Primary 5-3 and also takes the Secondary. He also gets all 3 bonus points. I only get 1-pt for Linebreaker. Space Marines take it 10-1 and repel the alien robots!
Eric played like a true champion this game. His strategy was solid and he played really smart. As for me, I don't think I really made any mistakes tactically. This game just wasn't meant to be mine. This game was almost a reversal of my Game #3 against Dan's White Scars. In that game, I had the dice and he did not. In this game, the shoe was on the foot. My opponent had the dice on his side instead and a couple of bad combats really turned the tide. Not much I could really do against that.
What lessons I will take from this game are:
1. White Scars are the real deal. They are definitely a top-tier army with the ability to win it all. I am actually glad that marines have at least one, probably two, strong tournament builds that can break the stranglehold of Tau and Eldar (and Necrons too!) at the top. These 2 battles gave me some very good experiences against a true Marine biker army.
2. In the future, I will probably play a little less aggressively against the Scars. In my 2 games, my shooting was actually under-utilized. In game #3, my opponent did a very good job of avoiding my shooting and in this game, my shooting just under-performed thanks to some good saves by my opponent. Nonetheless, one of the strengths of my army is to use my wraiths to tie down tough enemy units so that my shooting can take care of the rest. Well, that strategy just doesn't work against the Scars. With Hit-&-Run, I just can't tie them down in combat. The only thing I end up doing is to protect them from my shooting.
Overall, congrats to my roommate for a well played game against me and for his overall performance in the tournament as well.
I'd by lying if I said that I was happy with my performance in this tournament. I know, I know....4-1 and making it to Table #3 is a very respectable performance. However, I was actually somewhat disappointed. I honestly expected to be able to make it to Day #3 and the Top 8. There wasn't any army there that I was really concerned about or that I felt would have given me a lot of trouble. Tau is usually the army that gives my necrons the most trouble. However, other than Justin Cook, the winner of Nova 2013, no Tau player really made it that deep into the tournament. Then there was the seer council and beaststar Deldar. Depending on who went first, I think I have a decent chance against those armies. I also wouldn't mind playing against Gareth's 9 Thudd Gun IG. Whereas his army was a nightmare to most armies in the tournament, I don't think my army was one of them. As a matter of fact, I would have liked my chances against his Forgeworld-heavy army. But overall, there wasn't any army out there that made me really concerned.
As for my roommate and Game #5 opponent, Eric Hoerger, he did extremely well. He went on to play Justin Adam's Chaos/Chaos army in Game #6, Adam Tricola's (Xaerath's) Beaststar Deldar in Game #7 and finally, the eventual winner of the LVO, Alex Fennell's Seer Council Deldar in a final Game #8. Overall, Eric ended his run as the Runner-Up to the LVO Champion. Very impressive for a guy who's only played his army maybe 5 games before the tournament.
As for me, I ended my run at the LVO 22nd overall. This was only the 2nd loss ever for my Necrons since 6th Edition came out. They are still a force to be reckoned with IMO. Too bad they failed to conquer the 40K universe this time around, but believe me when I say, "we'll be back...." In any case, now that my schedule was....ahem....clear on Sunday, I decided to give the Doubles Tournament a try. Several of the people who signed up for the Doubles Tournament didn't show so they had extra spaces still available. So I found myself another Necron player, Chuck, to be my partner. Ironically, Chuck also lost to Eric and his bikers just the game before mine (Game #4). We both fielded wraithwing Necrons so the doubles army is actually going to look a lot like our singles armies, only nastier because it is at 2K. Hahaha....
Coming up next....Team We'll Be Back in their 2nd attempt to conquer the universe!
Please correct me if I'm wrong (Im away from the rulebook atm), but as far as i rememebr immobilized vehicles cannot score in Big Guns Never Tire, so therefore your pre-game assertion would be wrong.
JohnnyCage wrote: Please correct me if I'm wrong (Im away from the rulebook atm), but as far as i rememebr immobilized vehicles cannot score in Big Guns Never Tire, so therefore your pre-game assertion would be wrong.
You're right! I forgot about that.
Well, it's a good thing that my AB's didn't get immobilized on an objective then!
I don't see how the matchup favours the Necrons; With Mnemonic Protocols the Red Hunters won't really have a problem demolishing your fliers. Wraiths still take a ton of wounds from Grav guns, and can't tie up the bikes because they just hit and run; There is no effective way to deal with the RH Chapter Master.
Xaereth wrote: Quick question Jim: why do you say Wraiths don't care about Grav guns? They do, after all, still have a 3+ armor save to go with their 3++.
Are you just saying the wounds he causes are essentially the same as boltguns which do the same damage, only on a 4+?
He's probably very confident in making his 3+ saves.
This will be fun.
I think the Necrons still have a advantage. With only 1 flyer to protect them, the Necrons rule the skies, and control the objectives.
Wraiths don't mind grav guns so much, since they still GET a save against them. The immortals would cry, but then again, their STR 5 guns wil also make bikers sad.
As long as the TFCs are on the field, you need to spread out, but thats not hard with wraiths.
Sadly this game (40k in general) has devolved into who has 2nd turn 9 times out of ten. It's especially evident in timed events where you know when the game ends.
Sadly this game (40k in general) has devolved into who has 2nd turn 9 times out of ten.
I think it is an exaggeration. It is just that most of JY2 armies benefit more from being second. Especially Necrons thanks to their Night Scythes.
There are still armies that prefer/want to be first. Dark Eldar (Venom spam), Eldar (Jetseer Council against extremly shooty army that can wipe them/most of them before they can cast any spells), possbily Flying Circus (correct me if I'm wrong) and Tau since their troops aren't that mobile.
Xaereth wrote: Quick question Jim: why do you say Wraiths don't care about Grav guns? They do, after all, still have a 3+ armor save to go with their 3++.
Are you just saying the wounds he causes are essentially the same as boltguns which do the same damage, only on a 4+?
I don't care about grav-guns in that I still get my 3+ saves against them whereas most others are only getting 5+ or 4+ cover....or nothing at all. So to my wraiths, they are no more deadly than heavy bolter shots.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Asmodai Asmodean wrote: I don't see how the matchup favours the Necrons; With Mnemonic Protocols the Red Hunters won't really have a problem demolishing your fliers. Wraiths still take a ton of wounds from Grav guns, and can't tie up the bikes because they just hit and run; There is no effective way to deal with the RH Chapter Master.
Trust me, he doesn't want them out in the open for me to shoot back, followed by my wraiths charging them. He'd rather have them stuck in combat. Only his talons are areal AA option.
As for his Chapter Master, I don't have any problems with beat stick characters thanks to Mindshackles.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Red Corsair wrote: Sadly this game (40k in general) has devolved into who has 2nd turn 9 times out of ten. It's especially evident in timed events where you know when the game ends.
Not always true.
That's only the case for Necrons and Eldar. A lot of armies can still benefit from going 1st.
Sadly this game (40k in general) has devolved into who has 2nd turn 9 times out of ten.
I think it is an exaggeration. It is just that most of JY2 armies benefit more from being second. Especially Necrons thanks to their Night Scythes.
There are still armies that prefer/want to be first. Dark Eldar (Venom spam), Eldar (Jetseer Council against extremly shooty army that can wipe them/most of them before they can cast any spells), possbily Flying Circus (correct me if I'm wrong) and Tau since their troops aren't that mobile.
Correct.
Don't forget Tyranids. They can really get hurt from alpha-strike armies before they get a chance to "power up".
iGuy91 wrote: This will be fun.
I think the Necrons still have a advantage. With only 1 flyer to protect them, the Necrons rule the skies, and control the objectives.
Wraiths don't mind grav guns so much, since they still GET a save against them. The immortals would cry, but then again, their STR 5 guns wil also make bikers sad.
As long as the TFCs are on the field, you need to spread out, but thats not hard with wraiths.
There are two fliers. Read the list. All the Red Hunter units can get Skyfire for a turn as well, and that's going to can the fliers.
The Necrons don't really have anything that can threaten the TFCs efficiently.
Wraiths against bikers is again a poor proposition, because they just hit and run after you charge them.
Great reports again sir! Thoroughly enjoy reading them. You come across as the ultimate professional - competitive, yet still get the spirit of the game.
What are the special rules for Red Scorpions that makes them so good? I've never played against them or seen them played so don't know why they are different to other space marines.
hivefleethannibal wrote: What are the special rules for Red Scorpions that makes them so good? I've never played against them or seen them played so don't know why they are different to other space marines.
Yup Im curious too, i didnt play fw, not even once. What rules do they get?
Sorry, guys, Photobucket is down for maintenance currently so I'm going to have to wait until it is back online to update Game #5.
migsula wrote: Great reports again sir! Thoroughly enjoy reading them. You come across as the ultimate professional - competitive, yet still get the spirit of the game.
Cannot wait for Game six.
Thanks! While I am a competitive player, I also do care that both of us (my opponent and I) can still have a fun and fair match. The key is respect. Respect your opponent and the game and you'll be ok.
hivefleethannibal wrote: What are the special rules for Red Scorpions that makes them so good? I've never played against them or seen them played so don't know why they are different to other space marines.
hivefleethannibal wrote: What are the special rules for Red Scorpions that makes them so good? I've never played against them or seen them played so don't know why they are different to other space marines.
Yup Im curious too, i didnt play fw, not even once. What rules do they get?
In which book there are rules for red scorpions?
Red Hunters have Adamantium Will and once per game, they can give a number of their units (depending on which turn it is) 1 USR - Tank Hunters, Counter-Attack, Monster Hunters, Hatred, Skyfire or Interceptor.
Eric took it mainly to address his weakness against flyer-builds and in particular, double/triple-dragon Chaos builds.
Yea, and pretty much 90+% of tournamwent lists are eldar in design or necrons. Marines do well but notice they always lose out to eldar, especially seer council.
I am not saying anyone can win going second with eldar or necrons but to try and act like the advantage isn't massive is disingenuous.
Most top players will even admit to the cheese created by this in a tournament. Basically you KNOW when the last turn is because it is a timed event, and its even easier when you consider slow playing tactics which DO exist. Having a unit that can reach anywhere on the table to objective grab and contest is the name of the game currently when you consider top play.
Your a good player, and going second up until now made your ascension a cruise. I won't spoil it, but I am sure your going 1st has a major impact on the outcome
Also, I am more impressed then anything by the amount of quality pictures you manage to snap during these, you must have a Necron designed point and click
Yea, and pretty much 90+% of tournamwent lists are eldar in design or necrons. Marines do well but notice they always lose out to eldar, especially seer council.
I am not saying anyone can win going second with eldar or necrons but to try and act like the advantage isn't massive is disingenuous.
Most top players will even admit to the cheese created by this in a tournament. Basically you KNOW when the last turn is because it is a timed event, and its even easier when you consider slow playing tactics which DO exist. Having a unit that can reach anywhere on the table to objective grab and contest is the name of the game currently when you consider top play.
Your a good player, and going second up until now made your ascension a cruise. I won't spoil it, but I am sure your going 1st has a major impact on the outcome
Also, I am more impressed then anything by the amount of quality pictures you manage to snap during these, you must have a Necron designed point and click
I notice how Tau have disappeared from the rhetoric after LVO... 90% eldar and necrons is a bit of hyberbole, surely? Marines don't always lose out to Eldar, it came down to a failed LD10 morale check for Eric Hoeger at LVO.
Necrons usually rely on the game not going to turn 6, as their exposed warrior squads are very squishy, Jetbikes are less so but still remain vulnerable.
Am I right in thinking that both JY2 and our very own Adam Tricoloa (Beast Star player) are in the same LVO and both very close to the finals? Will these two end up playing against each other, as I would love to see how that game goes. I mean that JY2 has a vehicular advantage as Adam has little anti air save for the anti everything Wave Serpents but with the right powers that big beast pack is virtually unassailable as it would rip through a Wraithstar if it got any powers such as prescience, fortune or misfortune.
JY2, how would you handle an army like Adams? I imagine the main idea would to be to shoot it, with even a 4++ with re-rolls isn't unkillable then take a multi assault with both wraith units. Also, not to sound defeatist, but which of your battle reports have you lost in? I would like to see how your opponent dealt with YOU.
Yea, and pretty much 90+% of tournamwent lists are eldar in design or necrons. Marines do well but notice they always lose out to eldar, especially seer council.
I am not saying anyone can win going second with eldar or necrons but to try and act like the advantage isn't massive is disingenuous.
Most top players will even admit to the cheese created by this in a tournament. Basically you KNOW when the last turn is because it is a timed event, and its even easier when you consider slow playing tactics which DO exist. Having a unit that can reach anywhere on the table to objective grab and contest is the name of the game currently when you consider top play.
Your a good player, and going second up until now made your ascension a cruise. I won't spoil it, but I am sure your going 1st has a major impact on the outcome
Also, I am more impressed then anything by the amount of quality pictures you manage to snap during these, you must have a Necron designed point and click
I admit that Eldar currently dominates the tournaments, but Necrons actually aren't as common as I would have thought, considering how strong they still are.
Yeah, mobility is a huge advantage. All the top-tier tournament armies have mobility of scoring units. To me, it isn't a luxury. It is a necessity for a top-tier army. If you don't, you are really playing at a disadvantage. However, the top armies only make up maybe 10-15% of the field in a typical tournament. The majority of the armies there aren't really armies that rely on a 2nd turn strategy.
But honestly, in my game against Eric, it wasn't because I went 1st why I lost. He thoroughly dominated my army throughout. Ditto with most of my other games. I didn't win those games because of the last turn objective-grab. I won them because I dominated my opponents as well (with the exception of my other battle against the White Scars).
Yea, and pretty much 90+% of tournamwent lists are eldar in design or necrons. Marines do well but notice they always lose out to eldar, especially seer council.
I am not saying anyone can win going second with eldar or necrons but to try and act like the advantage isn't massive is disingenuous.
Most top players will even admit to the cheese created by this in a tournament. Basically you KNOW when the last turn is because it is a timed event, and its even easier when you consider slow playing tactics which DO exist. Having a unit that can reach anywhere on the table to objective grab and contest is the name of the game currently when you consider top play.
Your a good player, and going second up until now made your ascension a cruise. I won't spoil it, but I am sure your going 1st has a major impact on the outcome
Also, I am more impressed then anything by the amount of quality pictures you manage to snap during these, you must have a Necron designed point and click
I notice how Tau have disappeared from the rhetoric after LVO... 90% eldar and necrons is a bit of hyberbole, surely? Marines don't always lose out to Eldar, it came down to a failed LD10 morale check for Eric Hoeger at LVO.
Necrons usually rely on the game not going to turn 6, as their exposed warrior squads are very squishy, Jetbikes are less so but still remain vulnerable.
Tau performance have dropped mainly because of the shifting meta:
1. Beaststar/Seer Council builds. These are bad matchups for Tau to face. If Tau does not get a good alpha-strike against them, it is practically game over.
2. White Scars. Another potentially bad matchup for Tau, especially if they get the alpha-strike. Scouting bikes means that you can't really hide from them. Grav-guns means the death of riptides, broadsides and Ovesa-star builds. Well, maybe not "death", but potentially crippling the army.
Yeah, there's always a risk of exposing your "weak" troops, only to have the game go on. However, that can be mitigated by several factors in a tournament:
1. The strategical placement of objectives.
2. Your army has the potential to cripple your opponent's army to the point that they really can't do much to your troops anyways.
3. It is a timed event. Some players can and will take advantage of that. Other times, it may just be that players actually don't have enough time to complete their games, even when not deliberately "slow-playing".
ALEXisAWESOME wrote: Am I right in thinking that both JY2 and our very own Adam Tricoloa (Beast Star player) are in the same LVO and both very close to the finals? Will these two end up playing against each other, as I would love to see how that game goes. I mean that JY2 has a vehicular advantage as Adam has little anti air save for the anti everything Wave Serpents but with the right powers that big beast pack is virtually unassailable as it would rip through a Wraithstar if it got any powers such as prescience, fortune or misfortune.
JY2, how would you handle an army like Adams? I imagine the main idea would to be to shoot it, with even a 4++ with re-rolls isn't unkillable then take a multi assault with both wraith units. Also, not to sound defeatist, but which of your battle reports have you lost in? I would like to see how your opponent dealt with YOU.
Yeah, I was hoping to play either against Adam's Beaststar, Nick Rose's (Darkwynn) pure Eldar or Justin Cook's Ovesa-star. Heck I'd be happy to play all 3! But it just wasn't meant to be, at least not at this tournament.
I'll write up a Pre-Game Analysis later on as if I was going to play against Adam's Beaststar. It would have made for an awesome batrep here on dakka had we faced each other.
This is Chuck, and I actually lost to Eric in round 3, the last game of Friday, not round 4.
I should have beaten him too, as even though I was going first, I had the hot dice. I just managed to make several boneheaded mistakes on the last turn, which gave him an opening to pull off a win. To his credit, he played excellently and did exactly what was necessary to win, even though at the end of the game he had 2 Techmarines, 1 Thunderfire Cannon, and 1 lone Bike alive against probably 60% of my army.
It was good to see him make it all the way to the finals though, even if he didn't end up winning it all. 4-1 losing to the runner up is nothing to sneeze at.
Plus getting to bust out nasty Wraithwing in the Doubles tournament was a bunch of fun, so I can't complain too much.
Hi that is why in this match up i always go necrons with chaos space marines allies,the buring brand and the heldrakes jsut kills them in droves,i play that list a few times,i just kill so many of his bikers,he has no chance.if white scars brings list like this ,you bring heldraks and stuff like that.
Wow wasn't expecting such a whitewash but this game seemed pretty one-sided throughout. You never really recovered from that poor round of combat. In every other game your wraiths have owned once they got into combat, what happened?
Thanks for posting these, they are really well done and very interesting, making up for the shambles that is WD and WV.
Yea bikers can be tough. I had a game against a tough white scars army at the renegade GT. The trick in my game is I never assaulted them. I had weight of dice from shooting and I used it religiously. In the end I think I killed off all but 3 bikes. I know you wanna get your wraiths in there but use the barges a little more. Keep them at their maximum range. I keep mine about 21-24 away from their desired targets depending how stretched out the unit they are shooting at is. Honestly didnt see you losing this one going first or second. White scars are tough but your army wounds them on a 2+ and that just makes them expensive marines.
Great performance Jim you saw me believing in you there at the LVO by giving you lots of moral support. I think this tournament gave you great experience against White Scars as you said it yourself you had never really played them before till now. It is a good thing that White Scars are doing so well as I feel all those die hard White Scars fans from long ago can now enjoy having a great army.
Any game that ends because of time is a tainted win at best. In 7th there are to many ways to stall the game and make sure the game ends when you want.
Ive great time while reading your reports, its nice that ive encountered one of your topics, Im gonna read them regularly.
Anyway you wrote that you feel like you didnt make any mistake, I think that you could prevent losing 2 of your barges, especially the one shot by stormtalon at its rear armour. Those are 2 points due to big guns and maybe those barges could shoot at some more bikers or take objective (not sure of ths because I dont remember well situation on a table). Its sad that game #5 was so unlucky for you! :(
DarthDiggler wrote: Any game that ends because of time is a tainted win at best. In 7th there are to many ways to stall the game and make sure the game ends when you want.
So what is your proposal for tournaments?
Automatically Appended Next Post: Regarding the barges, I don't believe they could have been saved. Just too many units outflanking.
ALEXisAWESOME wrote: Am I right in thinking that both JY2 and our very own Adam Tricoloa (Beast Star player) are in the same LVO and both very close to the finals? Will these two end up playing against each other, as I would love to see how that game goes. I mean that JY2 has a vehicular advantage as Adam has little anti air save for the anti everything Wave Serpents but with the right powers that big beast pack is virtually unassailable as it would rip through a Wraithstar if it got any powers such as prescience, fortune or misfortune.
JY2, how would you handle an army like Adams? I imagine the main idea would to be to shoot it, with even a 4++ with re-rolls isn't unkillable then take a multi assault with both wraith units. Also, not to sound defeatist, but which of your battle reports have you lost in? I would like to see how your opponent dealt with YOU.
This would have been my thoughts on our game had we (Adam and I) played each other.
Pre-Game Analysis
I've played against the Beaststar once in 6th Ed. (with the new Eldar codex) with my Necrons:
I've also played against them numerous times back in Pre-Newdar era. I've never really had a problem with them back then. The game against Douglas was much more difficult because he wouldn't fail his saves, but I have confidence that my Necrons can take on the Beaststar DE. Why?
1. I'm experienced enough to know to ignore the beaststar for the most part and to go after his supporting units instead. That's how you play and beat deathstar builds....by going after the support units.
2. Night scythes are experts at picking apart those jetbike troops. None in all my games have survived their wrath.
3. Wraithknights hate Mindshackles. I have killed every single WK I have gone up against with my necrons.
4. Wraiths will make a mockery out of the beastpacks, doubling out even the 5W guys. Re-rollable 4+ is not nearly as bad as the re-rollable 2+/4+ of the seer council.
5. Even with dual-farseers, Fortune is not a guaranteed. If my opponent gets Fortune, it will be a tough battle for me. If not, he's got a big hill to climb.
6. The lack of Anti-air firepower in his army. The game is won by my troops in flyers, not by my wraiths on the ground (though they cannot be ignored also).
7. My mobility is just as good, maybe arguably even more superior to that of my opponent.
8. I've got no soft targets on the ground. Even if the beastpack Hit-&-Runs out of combat, there will be no target for them to go after besides my wraiths or annihilation barges, either of which I don't really care if he charges. And if he charges 1 unit of wraiths, I've got 2 more waiting to counter-assault.
9. I have a lot more experience playing against beaststar builds than I do playing against, say, White Scars. They won't catch me unprepared for their tricks.
10. His army is dependent on his psychic powers. Get the right ones and it'll be a tough, tough game for me. But there's just as good of a chance for him not to get the right ones. I usually go into these games prepared to face a Fortuned beaststar, but if he doesn't get it, then that's a bonus for me!
TehCheator wrote: This is Chuck, and I actually lost to Eric in round 3, the last game of Friday, not round 4.
I should have beaten him too, as even though I was going first, I had the hot dice. I just managed to make several boneheaded mistakes on the last turn, which gave him an opening to pull off a win. To his credit, he played excellently and did exactly what was necessary to win, even though at the end of the game he had 2 Techmarines, 1 Thunderfire Cannon, and 1 lone Bike alive against probably 60% of my army.
It was good to see him make it all the way to the finals though, even if he didn't end up winning it all. 4-1 losing to the runner up is nothing to sneeze at.
Plus getting to bust out nasty Wraithwing in the Doubles tournament was a bunch of fun, so I can't complain too much.
Thanks for being my partner at the LVO. We had a great run there, didn't we?
Man, if only you could have beaten my roommate, I could have played against someone else and maybe even advance to Day #3. Oh well....them's da breaks.
But I'm happy for him. Makes our losing a lot easier to swallow to say that we both lost to the Runner-Up of the tournament.
patrickekirby wrote: Hi that is why in this match up i always go necrons with chaos space marines allies,the buring brand and the heldrakes jsut kills them in droves,i play that list a few times,i just kill so many of his bikers,he has no chance.if white scars brings list like this ,you bring heldraks and stuff like that.
The main reason why I don't normally run allies, especially with my necrons, is because I am a purist. With a few exceptions, I prefer to play mono-armies. Necrons are good enough to win such that I don't need to bring allies with them. I would only do so for more "flavor" - to add some variety to my armies - than to be competitive.
tyrannosaurus wrote: Wow wasn't expecting such a whitewash but this game seemed pretty one-sided throughout. You never really recovered from that poor round of combat. In every other game your wraiths have owned once they got into combat, what happened?
Thanks for posting these, they are really well done and very interesting, making up for the shambles that is WD and WV.
The dice caught up to me. I've been having pretty good luck in all my tournaments. It's about time that something like this happened.
Tomb King wrote: Yea bikers can be tough. I had a game against a tough white scars army at the renegade GT. The trick in my game is I never assaulted them. I had weight of dice from shooting and I used it religiously. In the end I think I killed off all but 3 bikes. I know you wanna get your wraiths in there but use the barges a little more. Keep them at their maximum range. I keep mine about 21-24 away from their desired targets depending how stretched out the unit they are shooting at is. Honestly didnt see you losing this one going first or second. White scars are tough but your army wounds them on a 2+ and that just makes them expensive marines.
That was due to my relative inexperience against bikers. I don't play them that often, at least not the new White Scars. Unlike other people, my natural instincts is to play aggressively, even when I am not familiar with an army, whereas other people would probably tend to play more conservatively (i.e. Game #2 against Lyzz's Daemons).
But don't worry, I learn from my games.
y0disisray wrote: Great performance Jim you saw me believing in you there at the LVO by giving you lots of moral support. I think this tournament gave you great experience against White Scars as you said it yourself you had never really played them before till now. It is a good thing that White Scars are doing so well as I feel all those die hard White Scars fans from long ago can now enjoy having a great army.
Thanks!
Yeah, they deserve their time in the sun. For a long time, Space Marines have always been considered mediocre/mid-tier. I'm happy they are getting some of the spotlight now. Anything that takes away from the domination of Tau/Eldar in tournaments is a good thing.
Lord Arturius wrote: As always, a joy to read and follow your reports and progress through the tournament. Thanks for taking the time to do the reports!
There isn't much that can be done unfrotunately. If you increase the times or allow players the time to reach a natural conclusion every game then people will slow play. This will make a tournament go on for like 10-12 hours which is far too much. Honestly when I played at the LVO all of my games reached at least turn 5 which is all I can ask for.
DarthDiggler wrote: Any game that ends because of time is a tainted win at best. In 7th there are to many ways to stall the game and make sure the game ends when you want.
I strongly disagree with your statement.
In almost all competitive settings, there are time restrictions/limits. For example, in basketball, not only is there a time clock, but there is also a shot clock as well. You only get so much time with the ball before you have to shoot (which would be 24-seconds for the NBA). It is a common tactic for teams to "milk the clock" and hold the ball for 23 seconds before shooting it to try to minimize the time the opponent has with the ball. Would you consider this tainted as well? Same with Football and other sports as well. Even competitive Chess is a timed event as well. Would you consider that tainted as well if you didn't get a chance to fully think out your moves because of time? You had better plan for your opponent possibly delaying the game, whether deliberately or not. Now I understand you don't like that, but if you want to play competitively in a tournament environment, then it's something you have to get used to and plan for as well, whether you are playing against Mr scumbag asshat or a newbie playing a horde army in his very first tournament.
DarthDiggler wrote: Any game that ends because of time is a tainted win at best. In 7th there are to many ways to stall the game and make sure the game ends when you want.
I strongly disagree with your statement.
In almost all competitive settings, there are time restrictions/limits. For example, in basketball, not only is there a time clock, but there is also a shot clock as well. You only get so much time with the ball before you have to shoot (which would be 24-seconds for the NBA). It is a common tactic for teams to "milk the clock" and hold the ball for 23 seconds before shooting it to try to minimize the time the opponent has with the ball. Would you consider this tainted as well? Same with Football and other sports as well. Even competitive Chess is a timed event as well. Would you consider that tainted as well if you didn't get a chance to fully think out your moves because of time? You had better plan for your opponent possibly delaying the game, whether deliberately or not. Now I understand you don't like that, but if you want to play competitively in a tournament environment, then it's something you have to get used to and plan for as well, whether you are playing against Mr scumbag asshat or a newbie playing a horde army in his very first tournament.
Sorry but all your analogies fall flat on their face. In basketball and football either team can stop the clock during the game whether it's timeouts, free throw fouls, or taking the play out of bounds. Neither player can stop the clock in 40k. In basketball many points are scored without the clock running at all for foul shots. Basketball also does not allow much stalling because there is a shotclock. In football the offense can run a play to the sidelines and have the clock stopped or throw an incomplete pass to stop the clock. Stalling is frowned upon in football with a delay of game penalty. How about one of those in 40k. In chess the clock only runs on your opponents turn which does not happen in 40k. There are plenty of other sports where their is no clock, like baseball.
No I'm sorry but the meta within the meta is game stalling. The person who goes second does it and the person who goes first dreads it. .
Put a chess clock on these same players. The clock runs during their move phase and stops for shooting and close combat. You will see them finish games. The true winner of the game can be manipulated by the manipulation of the clock.
Last two rounds of a tourney all games that have a bearing on overall finish to completion. It's not like you guys didn't have the time at the LVO
I just watched a tourney game online. Stalling or not I saw a move where the Eldar player measured his move with 3 Jetbikes. Measured the distance they would be from Centurions, measure the move again. Shuffle a clipboard from one open space to another. Measure the distance from the centurions again. Shuffle the clipboard back. Move the first Jetbike. Measure it to the centurions, move the clipboard, shuffle that one Jetbike and measure it to a Thunderfire cannon, shuffle it again, measure it to the centurions again, shuffle the clipboard and then move the other two Jetbikes in the unit, finally measuring to the centurions for the last time.
That was one move. There were more move to make after that. I ran the Adepticon gladiator for a few years and saw all kinds of stalling going on over and over again. The most egregious example happened in the finals one year. I said right there this game would go to completion no matter the time. The stalling player finished the game in half an hour after that.
DarthDiggler wrote: Any game that ends because of time is a tainted win at best. In 7th there are to many ways to stall the game and make sure the game ends when you want.
I strongly disagree with your statement.
In almost all competitive settings, there are time restrictions/limits. For example, in basketball, not only is there a time clock, but there is also a shot clock as well. You only get so much time with the ball before you have to shoot (which would be 24-seconds for the NBA). It is a common tactic for teams to "milk the clock" and hold the ball for 23 seconds before shooting it to try to minimize the time the opponent has with the ball. Would you consider this tainted as well? Same with Football and other sports as well. Even competitive Chess is a timed event as well. Would you consider that tainted as well if you didn't get a chance to fully think out your moves because of time? You had better plan for your opponent possibly delaying the game, whether deliberately or not. Now I understand you don't like that, but if you want to play competitively in a tournament environment, then it's something you have to get used to and plan for as well, whether you are playing against Mr scumbag asshat or a newbie playing a horde army in his very first tournament.
Sorry but all your analogies fall flat on their face. In basketball and football either team can stop the clock during the game whether it's timeouts, free throw fouls, or taking the play out of bounds. Neither player can stop the clock in 40k. In basketball many points are scored without the clock running at all for foul shots. Basketball also does not allow much stalling because there is a shotclock. In football the offense can run a play to the sidelines and have the clock stopped or throw an incomplete pass to stop the clock. Stalling is frowned upon in football with a delay of game penalty. How about one of those in 40k. In chess the clock only runs on your opponents turn which does not happen in 40k. There are plenty of other sports where their is no clock, like baseball.
No I'm sorry but the meta within the meta is game stalling. The person who goes second does it and the person who goes first dreads it. .
Put a chess clock on these same players. The clock runs during their move phase and stops for shooting and close combat. You will see them finish games. The true winner of the game can be manipulated by the manipulation of the clock.
Last two rounds of a tourney all games that have a bearing on overall finish to completion. It's not like you guys didn't have the time at the LVO
I just watched a tourney game online. Stalling or not I saw a move where the Eldar player measured his move with 3 Jetbikes. Measured the distance they would be from Centurions, measure the move again. Shuffle a clipboard from one open space to another. Measure the distance from the centurions again. Shuffle the clipboard back. Move the first Jetbike. Measure it to the centurions, move the clipboard, shuffle that one Jetbike and measure it to a Thunderfire cannon, shuffle it again, measure it to the centurions again, shuffle the clipboard and then move the other two Jetbikes in the unit, finally measuring to the centurions for the last time.
That was one move. There were more move to make after that. I ran the Adepticon gladiator for a few years and saw all kinds of stalling going on over and over again. The most egregious example happened in the finals one year. I said right there this game would go to completion no matter the time. The stalling player finished the game in half an hour after that.
It happens in sports, especially when 1 team is ahead and the other is behind. They don't play at their "natural" pace. The leading team will usually take their time with their possessions, thereby minimizing the time the opponent has with the ball. This is especially evident when time is winding down. Stopping the clock by calling timeouts has nothing to do with it. With only half a minute left, you can bet the team that is leading with the basketball is going to kill time down to 6-8 seconds before they shoot. That is the sports method of "stalling".
In football, its the same. The winning team, when it gets down to the last 2-min or so, will stall and down the ball after about half a min. 2nd down and they do the same. Now they've got 2 more downs to do this tactic again until time runs out. Your analogy of running plays out the sidelines or throwing incomplete passes doesn't count. That's because it's usually the team that is behind who will attempt these tactics. That is not called stalling. That is called trying to stop the clock so that they can plan their next play. The leading team doesn't want to stop the clock. They want to let it run.
I agree that players sometime do try to stall the game. But a lot of the times, it isn't deliberate. Sometimes, players are naturally slow. Sometimes, their armies are unnaturally complex and/or has a lot of units. Sometimes, their armies make maximal use of all 3 phases - Movement, Shooting and Assault. Sometimes, there are rules disputes that takes up time as you wait for an arbitrator to decide what the call will be. In any case, if you do feel that the person is deliberately slow-playing, then DO SOMETHING ABOUT IT! Tell him that he is taking too long. Point out to him that he needs to play faster because his turns are taking twice or 3x as long as yours. Call the judge over if you have to. Sorry to say, but serious tournament players need to manage their times and sometimes, their opponent's as well.
I do agree that in the semi-finals and finals, that the TO's should give the players adequate time to complete, even if it exceeds the alotted time.
It's good that as a TO, you did something about the event you were running. That is a sign of a good TO - someone who is proactive and does something to push the pace of the game. Bravo.
jy2 wrote: Call the judge over if you have to. Sorry to say, but serious tournament players need to manage their times and sometimes, their opponent's as well.
I think this is a big thing that so many tournament players fail to do in tournament 40k. In games like Magic, with a more organized competitive scene, players learn early that if there are any rules disputes or issues with your opponent, you immediately throw your hand in your air and yell "JUDGE!" Then you explain the situation / ask your question and get your issue dealt with. For whatever reason, in 40k, people are unwilling to do this nearly as much. It probably has to do with the "Beer and Pretzels" origins of the game, or with the long history of opponent judged "sportsmanship" (meaning if you do anything like calling your opponent out for cheating, you were going to get docked and lose any chance of winning yourself), but I think people need to embrace the fact that you aren't trying to attack your opponent when you call a judge, just ensure that everyone is on the same page and the game is going smoothly.
Jy2, I also think your sports comparison is faulty. The examples you cited, stalling is done within the specified rules of the game, being a part of it. That is nothing like wh40k.
That said, I asked how to solve this problem. Chess clock for the movement phase was proposed. That can potentially hurt horde armies and might not solve slow play in other phases.
Can't also have a referee watching every table so here we are..
Naw wrote: Jy2, I also think your sports comparison is faulty. The examples you cited, stalling is done within the specified rules of the game, being a part of it. That is nothing like wh40k.
That said, I asked how to solve this problem. Chess clock for the movement phase was proposed. That can potentially hurt horde armies and might not solve slow play in other phases.
Can't also have a referee watching every table so here we are..
The point is, stalling comes part-&-parcel with competitive events. The tendency of the team/player that is leading is to slow down the tempo and use time as a defensive "weapon". It occurs naturally in almost any competitive event and to various degrees. It's just a part of the game that you have to take into account. To say that the game is "tainted" because of this "tactic" really isn't being fair to both players involved and that is where I take some offense to. It's another generalization like a player must be WAAC if he is a competitive player with a competitive list. Yeah, there are cases in which one player is deliberately slow-playing, and you should call him out on it if you feel that is what he is doing. But there are also many times that the games don't finish on time that is not due to deliberate slow-playing as well.
There really isn't any practical solution to this besides to just be vigilant. It is the players' responsibilities to keep track of the time. If you are letting your opponent take 2-3x longer to play their turns than yours, then perhaps the problem isn't him but you (the generic you). Chess clocks isn't a solution IMO. That is because there is such a big disparity between the different types of armies. Time Clocks will mainly benefit deathstar armies and other, smaller elitist armies and serve to punish larger armies (hordes, IG) or the more complex ones (like Tau and Tyrnaids). All it will end up doing is to discourage variety in tournament play and I am against anything that does that.
SwistakCZC wrote: Ive great time while reading your reports, its nice that ive encountered one of your topics, Im gonna read them regularly.
Anyway you wrote that you feel like you didnt make any mistake, I think that you could prevent losing 2 of your barges, especially the one shot by stormtalon at its rear armour. Those are 2 points due to big guns and maybe those barges could shoot at some more bikers or take objective (not sure of ths because I dont remember well situation on a table). Its sad that game #5 was so unlucky for you! :(
It's not a mistake. There's no way I could save all my barges, and I wouldn't really wanted to. This is why:
1. His outflanking bikes have a 12"+18-24" strike range with their gravguns (don't remember the exact range of those gravguns). There's no way I could have avoided that. That's 9 shots with a good chance to immobilize my barges (he only needs 1 to do so). An immobilized barge is as good as a dead barge. I just can't protect my AB's if he had really wanted to take them out so why bother.
2. The only way to avoid his talons from shooting at my barge's rear was to point them practically due north (straight at my opponent's deployment zone). That means I wouldn't have been able to fire at his command squad, which were the only unit besides the TFC's that were on the table. So the trade-off is defense for offense....and there's no guarantee that my opponent would have even shot at them! Make it too hard to kill and he'd just go after another target.
3. I much prefer him to shoot at my barges than at my night scythes. The barges can only grab the Big Gun objectives. The night scythes could grab either Big Guns or the Relic. The scythes gives me much more tactical flexibility and is the unit that is more vital to me in the game.
y0disisray wrote: There isn't much that can be done unfrotunately. If you increase the times or allow players the time to reach a natural conclusion every game then people will slow play. This will make a tournament go on for like 10-12 hours which is far too much. Honestly when I played at the LVO all of my games reached at least turn 5 which is all I can ask for.
Yeah, all my games ended naturally as well (or at least to Turn 5). I can't really ask for more than that.
jy2 wrote: Call the judge over if you have to. Sorry to say, but serious tournament players need to manage their times and sometimes, their opponent's as well.
I think this is a big thing that so many tournament players fail to do in tournament 40k. In games like Magic, with a more organized competitive scene, players learn early that if there are any rules disputes or issues with your opponent, you immediately throw your hand in your air and yell "JUDGE!" Then you explain the situation / ask your question and get your issue dealt with. For whatever reason, in 40k, people are unwilling to do this nearly as much. It probably has to do with the "Beer and Pretzels" origins of the game, or with the long history of opponent judged "sportsmanship" (meaning if you do anything like calling your opponent out for cheating, you were going to get docked and lose any chance of winning yourself), but I think people need to embrace the fact that you aren't trying to attack your opponent when you call a judge, just ensure that everyone is on the same page and the game is going smoothly.
Yeah, between me and my opponent, when we have a rules dispute that I think will take us more than 1 minute to solve, I just call over the judge. I tell my opponent that I don't want to waste time going through the rulebooks and let's just follow the judges rulings. That's better than to waste 5 minutes trying to find the rules in the book or the GWFAQ's and finally, the LVOFAQ's.
Naw wrote: Jy2, I also think your sports comparison is faulty. The examples you cited, stalling is done within the specified rules of the game, being a part of it. That is nothing like wh40k.
That said, I asked how to solve this problem. Chess clock for the movement phase was proposed. That can potentially hurt horde armies and might not solve slow play in other phases.
Can't also have a referee watching every table so here we are..
The point is, stalling comes part-&-partial with competitive events. The tendency of the team/player that is leading is to slow down the tempo and use time as a defensive "weapon". It occurs naturally in almost any competitive event and to various degrees. It's just a part of the game that you have to take into account. To say that the game is "tainted" because of this "tactic" really isn't being fair to both players involved and that is where I take some offense to. It's another generalization like a player must be WAAC if he is a competitive player. Yeah, there are cases in which one player is deliberately slow-playing, and you should call him out on it if you feel that is what he is doing. But there are also many times that the games don't finish on time that is not due to deliberate slow-playing as well.
This puts players to very unequal footing. An Eldar player does not care if he doesn't get to play the 5th or 6th turn, he can turbo his bikes to all objectives at will. That should not be the case, as this only causes the gap to widen between various armies. Some simply cannot or should not be used for competitive play, even if they were competitive under normal circumstances. That is the problem here. You can try to explain that it's only your skill to control the game with Necrons, when in essence it is your capability to grab the objectives at the last moment, something that your opponent might not be able to do.
But that is really the fault of GW, for making this an objectives game, where the various armies are already on an unequal footing.
There really isn't any practical solution to this besides to just be vigilant. It is the players' responsibilities to keep track of the time. If you are letting your opponent take 2-3x longer to play their turns than yours, then perhaps the problem isn't him but you (the generic you).
It can be as you earlier wrote, that some players are naturally slower. It's easy to become That Guy by calling for the referee often enough. On top of that, proving that your opponent is slow playing on purpose is difficult.
Chess clocks isn't a solution IMO. That is because there is such a big disparity between the different types of armies. Time Clocks will mainly benefit deathstar armies and other, smaller elitist armies and serve to punish larger armies (hordes, IG) or the more complex ones (like Tau and Tyrnaids). All it will end up doing is to discourage variety in tournament play and I am against anything that does that.
So the solution is to announce that no matter what this game will run its natural course, even if it took 5 hours
Life is not fair. Neither is 40K. Imbalance has always existed and will continue to do so, both in real life and in gaming. If you really want to play a completely fair game, try flipping coins for Heads-Tails instead.
I'm going to continue using basketball as an analogy. Players such as Lebron James and Kevin Durant are so good that it isn't fair. Lebron is just so athletic, versatile and dominating. No one should be as tall and athletic as Durant and still be able to shoot that the way that he does (he's virtually unblockable!). Yes, teams like Miama and Oklahoma City have the advantage because they've got these types of players. These teams year after year are perennial contenders for the title. So what are teams playing against them going to do about it? What can they do about it? Bitching and moaning isn't going to help them stop these players (or the team).
Likewise, Eldar with Jetbikes (the "Lebrons" of 40K) and Necrons with Night Scythes (the "Durants" of 40K) are perennial contenders for the title in any tournament as well. Yes, they've got an unfair advantage with such mobile troops. No, GW is not going to do anything about them, at least not until an Edition or Codex change. So what are you going to do about it? You can bitch and moan, you can refuse to go to tournaments or to play against these types of armies....or you can adjust and try to find ways to deal with them in a tournament environment. What are some of the things you can do?
1. Take fast troops of your own....drop pods, transport flyers (vendettas and stormravens), deepstriking troops, lots of transports (speed freak orks, MSU-mech), etc. Yes, they're not as "super" as jetbike troops or robots in flyers, but it's not as if armies don't have options for mobile scoring.
2. Block off the objectives. Bubble-wrap and spread out to prevent these last-turn objective grabs/contesting. Also, you have to consider objective-placement as well when initially placing objectives.
3. Kill off his troops, especially the fast ones. That's what I normally do and so far, this tactic has worked out for me 90% of the time. When I go up against Eldar, screw the wraithknights, the beaststars and the seer councils. I'm going after the jetbike troops and troops in wave serpents first and foremost when given the opportunity. You need to build you list to be able to deal with these types of units. That means mobile offensive units of your own or barrage shooting or just plain shooting. For example, I see a lot of Tau players take fusions on many of their riptides. Screw the fusion and the land raider that you want to prepare for. What's going to cost you the game is the fact that you don't have SMS to deal with his hiding MSU troops or jetbikes.
Naw wrote: Jy2, I also think your sports comparison is faulty. The examples you cited, stalling is done within the specified rules of the game, being a part of it. That is nothing like wh40k.
That said, I asked how to solve this problem. Chess clock for the movement phase was proposed. That can potentially hurt horde armies and might not solve slow play in other phases.
Can't also have a referee watching every table so here we are..
The point is, stalling comes part-&-partial with competitive events. The tendency of the team/player that is leading is to slow down the tempo and use time as a defensive "weapon". It occurs naturally in almost any competitive event and to various degrees. It's just a part of the game that you have to take into account. To say that the game is "tainted" because of this "tactic" really isn't being fair to both players involved and that is where I take some offense to. It's another generalization like a player must be WAAC if he is a competitive player. Yeah, there are cases in which one player is deliberately slow-playing, and you should call him out on it if you feel that is what he is doing. But there are also many times that the games don't finish on time that is not due to deliberate slow-playing as well.
This puts players to very unequal footing. An Eldar player does not care if he doesn't get to play the 5th or 6th turn, he can turbo his bikes to all objectives at will. That should not be the case, as this only causes the gap to widen between various armies. Some simply cannot or should not be used for competitive play, even if they were competitive under normal circumstances. That is the problem here. You can try to explain that it's only your skill to control the game with Necrons, when in essence it is your capability to grab the objectives at the last moment, something that your opponent might not be able to do.
But that is really the fault of GW, for making this an objectives game, where the various armies are already on an unequal footing.
No, player skill put players on very unequal footing. Yes, the armies aren't completely fair. Certain armies have certain advantages that other armies just don't. That's the way it has always been in this game of ours. But the difference is, the skilled player recognizes the inequities of the matchup and should have his own plans/tactics on how to deal with it. It may still be a tough battle, but just the fact that he is prioritizing the opponent's fast troops over the slow ones means that he still has a fighting chance.
In an ideal world, all the armies are completely balanced. There would also be world peace and no such thing as crime in an ideal world. Sorry, never going to happen.
Spoiler:
There really isn't any practical solution to this besides to just be vigilant. It is the players' responsibilities to keep track of the time. If you are letting your opponent take 2-3x longer to play their turns than yours, then perhaps the problem isn't him but you (the generic you).
It can be as you earlier wrote, that some players are naturally slower. It's easy to become That Guy by calling for the referee often enough. On top of that, proving that your opponent is slow playing on purpose is difficult.
Chess clocks isn't a solution IMO. That is because there is such a big disparity between the different types of armies. Time Clocks will mainly benefit deathstar armies and other, smaller elitist armies and serve to punish larger armies (hordes, IG) or the more complex ones (like Tau and Tyrnaids). All it will end up doing is to discourage variety in tournament play and I am against anything that does that.
So the solution is to announce that no matter what this game will run its natural course, even if it took 5 hours
No, there is no solution, at least none that is practical. But in the Semi-finals or Finals of a large GT, I'd have judges go back and forth between the final 2 tables (and then the final table) to make sure this type of shenanigan (slow-playing) isn't going on. I'd also let those games run to their natural completions regardless of time and "police" any slow-playing that I saw....just like what DarthDiggler did when he ran one of the events at Adepticon.
If you really want to play a completely fair game, try flipping coins for Heads-Tails instead.
If only. Coin-Flips have a 51% chance in favor of the side upright at the time of the toss.
4. Bribe your opponent.
This is a 100% effective method. I've never minded when my opponents use it, and they've never seemed to mind when I do.
----------
The issues with tournament time-constraints interacting with objective grabs stems from inability to supply sufficient time for games. With the expanding sizes and complexities of armies, 40k games at 1750-2000 take far too long to run to a normal conclusion in 2 1/2 hours. Expanding the time limits will force there to be less games, making events harder to score and obviously diminishing the experience.
Chess clocks are not a solution, as unlike chess, 40k turns involve both players and vary with armies. I think that slow-playing would actually increase in voracity, as players can waste time on their opponent's clocks ("Oh, let me just pile in every guardsmen exactly 3 inches. Whoops, knocked a few down, better stand them up again and remeasure"...etc).
As jy2 says, when playing in a 40k tournament you should not expect a balanced experience, that is just not the nature of the game. The only real solution is player vigilance and perhaps a decrease in the point values.
If you want a superb and almost entirely balanced tournament game, take up chess.
SwistakCZC wrote: Ive great time while reading your reports, its nice that ive encountered one of your topics, Im gonna read them regularly.
Anyway you wrote that you feel like you didnt make any mistake, I think that you could prevent losing 2 of your barges, especially the one shot by stormtalon at its rear armour. Those are 2 points due to big guns and maybe those barges could shoot at some more bikers or take objective (not sure of ths because I dont remember well situation on a table). Its sad that game #5 was so unlucky for you! :(
It's not a mistake. There's no way I could save all my barges, and I wouldn't really wanted to. This is why:
1. His outflanking bikes have a 12"+18-24" strike range with their gravguns (don't remember the exact range of those gravguns). There's no way I could have avoided that. That's 9 shots with a good chance to immobilize my barges (he only needs 1 to do so). An immobilized barge is as good as a dead barge. I just can't protect my AB's if he had really wanted to take them out so why bother.
2. The only way to avoid his talons from shooting at my barge's rear was to point them practically due north (straight at my opponent's deployment zone). That means I wouldn't have been able to fire at his command squad, which were the only unit besides the TFC's that were on the table. So the trade-off is defense for offense....and there's no guarantee that my opponent would have even shot at them! Make it too hard to kill and he'd just go after another target.
3. I much prefer him to shoot at my barges than at my night scythes. The barges can only grab the Big Gun objectives. The night scythes could grab either Big Guns or the Relic. The scythes gives me much more tactical flexibility and is the unit that is more vital to me in the game.
Thats solid justification. In 1 youre totally right, my mistake. In 2 and 3, youre partially right, I think that sometimes its good to remit some shooting and take better position for next turns (i mean this barge shooted by talons), barge is worth 1 vp, can score and shoots better then scythe with greater flexibility (dont have to fly off board). But damn Ive forgotten that you played relic as well, its mean that youre more than partially right. Thanks for giving me better understanding of that game.
You played very well in whole tournament, Im looking for next batreps with necrons co-starring in
Just throwing my hat in here (which is not a big one as I don't play warhammer as often as many of you) but that there is no real way to balance a game, there is always armies that are "better" but I kinda ignore that.
I play magic the gathering VERY competitively, and I know that some decks are "better" then others but I often don't play whatever is the "best" deck. I play decks I like, that use styles and tactics I know and are good with. Player skill will often be the turning point in most games and luck is also something to consider.
The same is true of 40k, some armies are "better" but with some bad dice rolls, or a few tactical errors and suddenly your losing a game that "should" have been your's. I play armies that I am good with first and worry about how to deal with match ups second.
Well sorry for the rant, just had been reading all the discussion and felt I had to pipe up.
Sorry about the hard loss there Jy2, one thing I don't like about the tournament settings sometimes is that one really bad defeat can really knock a guys record from high to low, hope you continue to kick ass in the future and thanks for the battle reports.
If you really want to play a completely fair game, try flipping coins for Heads-Tails instead.
If only. Coin-Flips have a 51% chance in favor of the side upright at the time of the toss.
4. Bribe your opponent.
This is a 100% effective method. I've never minded when my opponents use it, and they've never seemed to mind when I do.
----------
The issues with tournament time-constraints interacting with objective grabs stems from inability to supply sufficient time for games. With the expanding sizes and complexities of armies, 40k games at 1750-2000 take far too long to run to a normal conclusion in 2 1/2 hours. Expanding the time limits will force there to be less games, making events harder to score and obviously diminishing the experience.
Chess clocks are not a solution, as unlike chess, 40k turns involve both players and vary with armies. I think that slow-playing would actually increase in voracity, as players can waste time on their opponent's clocks ("Oh, let me just pile in every guardsmen exactly 3 inches. Whoops, knocked a few down, better stand them up again and remeasure"...etc).
As jy2 says, when playing in a 40k tournament you should not expect a balanced experience, that is just not the nature of the game. The only real solution is player vigilance and perhaps a decrease in the point values.
If you want a superb and almost entirely balanced tournament game, take up chess.
Dude whats up with your signature?! So, do you wait for people to say that your smart and stuff and then just show it off? Lol its pretty funny the number of quotes I have seen you go through.
Wow, I really didn't mean to side rail the thread with my initial comment.
It is just frustrating when players attribute player skill way higher then they need to. Having turn 2 in a timed event with units like scoring bikes, better yet jetbikes and better still NS troops is the single most decisive factor. Acting like this massive discrepancy doesn't exist or that it isn't as large as it is disingenuous.
Had you gone second in game 5, your decisions would have been on auto pilot for a turn 5 win as in your other games. It is silly how simple it is currently for certain builds to grab a win going second.
T1- smoke your pipe
T2- Grab first blood
T3-4 throw up chaff ie. do enough maneuvering to kill time
T5 Contest and win on FB or sweep with primary
If things are going quicker it is just as easy to play for T6 or 7
That said, I agree with your points with exception to the very bad sports comparisons. It is up to the players to recognize this and bring the right army, but this unfortunately is where the lions share of "skill" derives from currently. That entails bringing the right list (fast troops) and rolling for second turn.
It just strikes me as odd when players admit to horrid game imbalance while in the same breathe attribute wins to tabletop skill like they are some sort of savant. I guess gaming the system is a skill, just one that needs further distancing from battlefield tactic skills IMHO.
No where in here do I mean to discredit you personally. I want that to be clear. You are sharp and would do well in a balanced system, but the current state of the game in regard to tournament play is really not complex at all.
Meta talk aside, this looked like a phenomenal event, with great people, terrain and these batreps as usual are top notch. To me your best skill is story telling, which I value more then skills at a busted game ANY DAY. AND your photos are NEVER blurry... WTF dude hax
Red Corsair wrote: Meta talk aside, this looked like a phenomenal event, with great people, terrain and these batreps as usual are top notch. To me your best skill is story telling, which I value more then skills at a busted game ANY DAY. AND your photos are NEVER blurry... WTF dude hax
Thanks! Storytelling is fun and lets me get my creative juices out. And I have a very good camera....the Panasonic Lumix LX-5. Great quality for a sub-$500 camera.
DarthDiggler wrote: Any game that ends because of time is a tainted win at best. In 7th there are to many ways to stall the game and make sure the game ends when you want.
I strongly disagree with your statement.
How do you feel about loaded dice?
In almost all competitive settings, there are time restrictions/limits. ....
Yes, and in turn-based games, those limits are the number of turns.
jy2 wrote:
The point is, stalling comes part-&-parcel with competitive events.
There's a difference between stalling within the framework that the game is designed for, and stalling outside that framework. Since you're into the sports analogies, here are a few...
In soccer, there's a running clock. And, when the goalkeeper is holding the ball, the other team is not allowed to attempt to kick it out of his hands. It stands to reason, then, that the winning soccer strategy is to score one goal, and let your goalkeeper hold the ball for the rest of the contest...
Of course, that's not what happens. Because the goalkeeper is expected to return the ball to the field of play in a timely manner. What is a timely manner?? How long can he give his team-mates to get into position to receive his kick? Well, that's up to the referee, and I've seen plenty of yellow-cards called in games for time-wasting.
In American football, controlling the ball to run the clock out is a viable strategy, but it's got its own limits built in. You can only run out the clock while you possess the ball, you can only run out 40 seconds at a time, at which point you have to run a play, and your opponent has a means to counter-act the strategy when they get possession of the ball. The team with the lead can't just waste time endlessly, they still have to run plays and gain first-downs, or the opponent gets the ball back.
Now compare that with turn-based games. Your opponent wants to waste time - you have no recourse.
... Yeah, there are cases in which one player is deliberately slow-playing, and you should call him out on it if you feel that is what he is doing. ...
And what good does that do? I'm pretty sure everyone playing at this level has 100 excuses for why they're not "slow-playing" that would sound legit unless a judge were to monitor the game. What's worse, the real offenders know their plan early on, and waste time in the early turns, before you're watching for it. All of a sudden, you find yourself on turn 3 with 30-45 minutes left, and then the amount of time they spend on their moves seems reasonable. If your opponent goes into a game knowing that he's playing for a four-turn game and wastes 45 minutes between turn 1 and 2, they have a huge advantage over someone who expects to play a five+ turn game. It's just as much cheating to do this as it is to use loaded dice.
But there are also many times that the games don't finish on time that is not due to deliberate slow-playing as well.
Having played 200 model armies at high-level tournaments, I'm generally of the opinion that if a game doesn't finish on time, it's because one (or both) of the players didn't want it to. We're not talking neighborhood tournaments where the guy who plays once every few months stops in and has to keep re-learning the rules, we're talking about upper tables at highly competitive events.
Unfortunately the message was somehow misunderstood. We all know and understand that armies are not and will not ever be equal. What I meant was that in a timed event the advantage is even more on the more mobile side. I do not think there is a real solution to that as more than one game needs to be played during an event.
There, I got the last words, now let's move on to the Doubles tournament
Originally, I wasn't planning on attending the LVO Doubles Tournament. I had planned to make it to Day #3 and the Top 8 of the Championships. However, after losing to Eric's White Scars in Game #5, I suddenly found myself free on Sunday. Thus I decided to enter into the Doubles tournament. There were still spaces left so I started looking for partners. I mainly wanted to team up with Necrons to keep our army "pure". I knew Eric played another Necron player earlier and decided to ask him if he was interested in teaming up with me. Fortunately for me, Chuck (aka TehCheator) was also interested in playing in the team tournament. It was almost a match made in heaven as we were both running Wraithwing Necrons so the match was perfect. Our armies coalesced together very well. It was more like 1 army rather than 2 separate armies.
In any case, both persons get 1000-pts and the 2 armies have to share 1 Force Organization Chart.
Jy2's Necrons
Destroyer Lord - 2+, Mindshackle Scarabs, ResOrb
5x Immortals - Gauss Blasters, Night Scythe
5x Immortals - Gauss Blasters, Night Scythe
Now these won't be full reports. Rather, they will be summaries of our battles.
Game #1 vs Chaos Daemons/Chaos Space Marines
Spoiler:
Our first game was against Pascal from Frontline Gaming and Rich from Green Stuff Industries. Pascal is one of the painters for Frontline Gaming. Rich has his own company and makes some pretty cool stuff for 40K. You can find some of his products as well as his 40K blog here:
Nurgle Lord on Bike with PF and LC, BGrenades, GOM, and Sigil
1x7 Plague Marine squad with 2x Melta
1x7 Plague Marine squad with 2x Plasma
2 Heldrakes
Aegis and Relay
I looked at their lists and I immediately started to feel a little bad. They're playing more of a fluff-based army whereas our army was pretty hardcore. To make things worse, we won the roll to go 2nd. Mission was objectives and I believe Kill Points.
Turn 2 both of Rich's heldrakes came in and the only targets they had were either our wraiths or annihilation barges. Our flyers then came in the next turn and shot almost both of them down (just 1 left with 1 HP remaining).
Turn 3 Pascal gave me a little scare. His plague bearers had the banner that gave them Poisoned 2+. With Prescience from Fateweaver, the plagues were re-rolling to hit and to wound and he charged my wraiths. He almost wiped out my 1 unit of wraiths + Lord. But then the next turn, I multi-assaulted all 3 plaguebearer units and used combat res to force Daemonic Instability tests on all 3 units. Eventually, I won the battle of attrition and wiped out all 50 of his plaguebearers by the time the game ended, though I lost my Lord and most of my wraiths in the process.
Chuck on the other hand, assaulted Rich's HQ + plagues and actually lost his war of attrition. However, our shooting was just too great and almost wiped out the rest of their army. We eventually killed Fatey, though it would take until Turn 5 to do so.
In the end, we nabbed Primary, Secondary and all the bonus points for a max score of 11-pts (max here was 11 instead of the 10 that was max in the Championships).
I want to thank our opponents for taking the beating quite well despite clearly being over-matched. They never gave up. Bravo.
I knew this was going to be a tough fight. Our opponents were bringing Tau (yech!) and Necrons (yeah!...oh wait, we're playing against them....yech!). Both of us were coming in with max Battle points so far. But more importantly, our opponents were Daniel Hesselberg, the Team Captain of Sweden's ETC team, and Bob. Daniel finished the main tournament ranked #22 overall. I'm not sure how Bob ended up doing (heck...I'm not even sure if I got Bob's name correct!). In any case, I knew this match was going to be much, much different from our first game. However, I knew that this game was going to be interesting when Daniel came in with his own, personal upchuck bin. Seems like he was in a worse condition than I was on my Day #2!
This is an approximation of their lists.
Tau:
Tau "Toolbox" Commander - lots of the "necessary" upgrades
Riptide - Ion, Early Warning Override
2x units of kroots
2x3 Broadsides - several missile drones
Necrons:
Destroyer Lord - 2+, Mindshackles
6x Wraiths - some whip coils
5x Immortals - Night Scythe
5x Warriors - Night Scythe
5x Warriors - Night Scythe
Annihilation Barge
The Game:
Tau is an army that traditionally gives my Necrons lots of problems. As a matter of fact, to my crons, they are an even tougher matchup than Eldar IMO. Fortunately for us, we were going 2nd.
Mission was objectives and Victory Points, though VP's only count for 1 partner. We chose their Necrons for our VP count and they chose Chuck's Necrons for their VP count. We actually make a mistake here by choosing Chuck's Destroyer Lord to be our Warlord. So now, our opponents have 2x the reason to kill him - he's both the Warlord as well as a VP in the VP mission. But in the end, it turned out to be a great choice.
This game, we played super-conservatively....which was rather quite uncharacteristic of me. Such is my respect for Tau firepower. We also ended up reserving Chuck's wraithstar unit, which turned out to be another great move on our part.
Tau deployment. All their troops are in reserves.
Overall of our deployment.
Necrons advance cautiously. The Toolbox "Buffmander" joins the broadsides and with Tank Hunters and Ignore Cover, they take out one of our annihilation barges for First Blood.
We played a game of cat-&-mouse with our wraithstars, each one staying about 20-24" away from each other. As a matter of fact, I didn't really advance my wraiths until Turn 2 when Chuck's wraiths came in.
Turn 2 their kroots and 2 night scythes come in. They do a couple of wounds to my wraiths but one of the teslas actually arcs back onto the scythes and takes off 1 HP from it.
The Tau take out another AB.
Vengeance is ours! We take out both of their night scythes. Chuck's wraiths comes in and I begin to advance my wraiths (though still weary of our opponents' wraiths). My wraiths also assault and blow up their AB.
Turn 3 the last night scythe comes in.
They take out the last AB, kill a bunch of wraiths from Chuck's unit and I believe take down 1 night scythe as well.
We then kill off 1 unit of kroots with assault by Chuck's wraiths and shoot down a couple of broadsides with our night scythes.
My wraiths attempt to multi-charge against their 2 Necron troops but I roll 1,1 to fail my charges!!!
Turn 4 his wraithstar assaults into my wraithstar, but not until after shooting at them first. They had the numbers advantage, however, my D-lord passes his MSS test while our opponent's D-lord failed his. We stay locked in combat.
I believe this turn, they shoot down Chuck's D-lord - our Warlord - but fortunately for us, he gets back up.
Our Turn 4, Chuck's wraithstar (with perhaps the D-lord and only 1 wraith left) assaults into the broadsides with Buffmander. We use terrain to minimize Overwatch and we either killed them in assault, or they fall back and off the table. That was a huge turn for us!
Both of our D-lords kill each other off in combat and neither gets back up. Wraiths would remain locked in combat for the rest of the game. My other unit of wraiths would take care of his troops and then later join the wraith assault.
NecTau Turn 5 - they shoot down our Warlord....but again he gets back up!!! Riptide then assaults him (with just 1W remaining) but gets mindshackled, loses combat and then breaks! WTF?!? So far, Chuck's Warlord + wraithstar was responsible for taking out 1 unit of broadsides, the Tau Commander and now for breaking the riptide.
Our Turn 5, we go after the objectives and their troops. Our Warlord assaults another unit of broadsides and break them as well!!! Damn....that guy was on FIRE !!!
The broadsides and riptide would rally, but by then it would be too little too late. We already had the game in the bag. We had both the Primary and the Secondary. We also got all the bonus points except First Blood. Team We'll Be Back takes it 10-1.
We probably wouldn't have won this game if not for Chuck's Warlord. That guy was clearly the MVP of the game. He came back twice (maybe even 3 times?) and basically single-handedly dismantled the Tau army. Despite the score, this was a tough, tough battle. It must have also been a frustrating game for our opponent's, but that's just how it is against Necrons sometimes. Necrons can be unbeatable when they are making their Everliving/Reanimation rolls, and I always feel bad for any of my opponents who experiences it firsthand.
Our opponent for this round was Pascal from New Zealand and Adrien. Adrien ran FMC Daemons in the Championships. Pascal was running Blood Angels and came all the way from New Zealand just to participate in this tournament. He was actually in one of Frontline Gaming's videoreps:
Sorry, don't quite remember his list exactly, but it was something like this:
Librarian Furioso Dread
Furioso Dread
Lucious Drop Pod
Lucious Drop Pod
5x Death Company - Drop Pod
Stormraven
Stormraven
So between the 2 of them, they only had 1 scoring unit. That's ONE frickin scoring unit only!!! I almost did a double-take when I saw their army. I thought to myself, wow, we are going to pulverize them!
But what we didn't know at the time was this:
1. Adrien was the Best Daemons player and ended the tournament ranked #14 overall.
2. Pascal was the Best Blood Angels player and was the #35 ranked player overall. His BA barely lost to Justin Cook's Ovesa-star and smashed a Mechdar player as well as another Tau player.
3. Adrien's Daemons would get some awesome powers, including Misfortune, Iron Arm and Terrify! Holy Ship!
4. Going into round #3, they were undefeated as well. They also got max points in their 1st game.
But sometimes, ignorance is bliss. So we go into the game thinking that we would be heavy favorites....
The Game:
The deployment was somewhat funky. We each get 1 table quarter and so can deploy all the way to the 24" line, which is exactly what we did. Adrien, on the other hand, deploys his FMC's all the way back in his corner and Pascal deploys nothing.
We deploy our wraiths and leave our annihilation barges in reserves. I make sure to stay out of range of Adrien's maledictions.
BTW, we went 2nd. Mission objectives were VP's and Table Quarters.
Fatey gets the Grimoire. FMC's advance. Both dreadnoughts come in. Here's an interesting tidbit. Apparently, the dreads can disembark on top of the Lucious pods! Pascal even verified it with FW themselves. Now why would he want to do that? So that we couldn't surround his drop pods, assault and wreck them and then kill off the dreads inside because they couldn't disembark.
Shooting kills 1 wraith, puts 1W on another and takes off 2W from my D-lord.
Necron Turn 1 - we have nothing that can shoot and so we just assault and kill both drop pods. First Blood to the crons.
Here comes the pain. My wraithstar unit gets Terrified. My other unit of wraiths gets Misfortuned. Fatey gets the Grimoire and stays flying. The other 2 FMC's prepare for assault.
Our opponents make 2 almost fatal errors this turn. First of all, they shoot down enough Misfortuned wraiths to take them out of assault of Adrien's Daemon Prince (DP).
Secondly, they charge both the dread and the LoC into my wraithstar. Had he only charged in with the LoC, he could have won combat and potentially swept my wraithstar. But by charging in with the Furioso as well, it gave my D-lord and his warscythe something to kill. Keep in mind that each penetrating hit on a vehicle counts as 2 kills when determining combat res. Thus, I kill his dread and then end up winning combat and putting another couple of wounds on their LoC.
Eventually, I would win the combat against the LoC thanks to Mindshackle Scarabs.
Next turn when our reserves come in, we bring his Grimoire DP down to 1W left with shooting and then finish him off in assault with Chuck's wraithstar.
Warpstorm would give Chaos another free unit of troops (Wow! 2 scoring units now!!!), but it would not help.
They kill 2 night scythes, 1 unit of wraiths, my D-lord and 1 annihilation barge but I believe that was all they were able to do.
We proceed to kill the LoC in combat, Fateweaver by Turn 4, the pink horrors, the other furioso and both stormravens.
We take Table Quarters 2-0 (they had the plaguebearers and death company contesting 2 quarters). We also take VP's as well as all the bonus points. Team We'll Be Back wins it with max points. Our opponents never gave up, but they really couldn't afford to make any mistakes in this matchup. Unfortunately, they did and as a result, we made them pay.
So at the end of the tournament, there were 2 undefeated Teams. We ended the tournament with 32 Battle Points (out of 33). The other team ended up with 27-pts. However, they had better paint scores than us as well as a very nice display base. Thus, they ended up taking Best Team Overall.
Yeah, that DLord came back 3 times against them, he had a total of 6 wounds (3 starting + 3 extras from RP). Him and a wraith or two assaulted and sweeping advanced a unit of broadsides with their warlord commander in it, then assaulted and broke the other squad of broadsides (they would eventually rally but way out of position behind LoS blocking ruins), and then took the charge from the Riptide and broke him off the board. So he pretty much single-handedly took care of the entire Tau half of their army.
Also, I'm pretty sure at least 2 of the times he got back up were on 4's, so the Res Orb earned it's points back and more this game.
Life is not fair. Neither is 40K. Imbalance has always existed and will continue to do so, both in real life and in gaming. If you really want to play a completely fair game, try flipping coins for Heads-Tails instead.
I'm going to continue using basketball as an analogy. Players such as Lebron James and Kevin Durant are so good that it isn't fair. Lebron is just so athletic, versatile and dominating. No one should be as tall and athletic as Durant and still be able to shoot that the way that he does (he's virtually unblockable!). Yes, teams like Miama and Oklahoma City have the advantage because they've got these types of players. These teams year after year are perennial contenders for the title. So what are teams playing against them going to do about it? What can they do about it? Bitching and moaning isn't going to help them stop these players (or the team).
Likewise, Eldar with Jetbikes (the "Lebrons" of 40K) and Necrons with Night Scythes (the "Durants" of 40K) are perennial contenders for the title in any tournament as well. Yes, they've got an unfair advantage with such mobile troops. No, GW is not going to do anything about them, at least not until an Edition or Codex change. So what are you going to do about it? You can bitch and moan, you can refuse to go to tournaments or to play against these types of armies....or you can adjust and try to find ways to deal with them in a tournament environment. What are some of the things you can do?
1. Take fast troops of your own....drop pods, transport flyers (vendettas and stormravens), deepstriking troops, lots of transports (speed freak orks, MSU-mech), etc. Yes, they're not as "super" as jetbike troops or robots in flyers, but it's not as if armies don't have options for mobile scoring.
2. Block off the objectives. Bubble-wrap and spread out to prevent these last-turn objective grabs/contesting. Also, you have to consider objective-placement as well when initially placing objectives.
3. Kill off his troops, especially the fast ones. That's what I normally do and so far, this tactic has worked out for me 90% of the time. When I go up against Eldar, screw the wraithknights, the beaststars and the seer councils. I'm going after the jetbike troops and troops in wave serpents first and foremost when given the opportunity. You need to build you list to be able to deal with these types of units. That means mobile offensive units of your own or barrage shooting or just plain shooting. For example, I see a lot of Tau players take fusions on many of their riptides. Screw the fusion and the land raider that you want to prepare for. What's going to cost you the game is the fact that you don't have SMS to deal with his hiding MSU troops or jetbikes.
Naw wrote: Jy2, I also think your sports comparison is faulty. The examples you cited, stalling is done within the specified rules of the game, being a part of it. That is nothing like wh40k.
That said, I asked how to solve this problem. Chess clock for the movement phase was proposed. That can potentially hurt horde armies and might not solve slow play in other phases.
Can't also have a referee watching every table so here we are..
The point is, stalling comes part-&-partial with competitive events. The tendency of the team/player that is leading is to slow down the tempo and use time as a defensive "weapon". It occurs naturally in almost any competitive event and to various degrees. It's just a part of the game that you have to take into account. To say that the game is "tainted" because of this "tactic" really isn't being fair to both players involved and that is where I take some offense to. It's another generalization like a player must be WAAC if he is a competitive player. Yeah, there are cases in which one player is deliberately slow-playing, and you should call him out on it if you feel that is what he is doing. But there are also many times that the games don't finish on time that is not due to deliberate slow-playing as well.
This puts players to very unequal footing. An Eldar player does not care if he doesn't get to play the 5th or 6th turn, he can turbo his bikes to all objectives at will. That should not be the case, as this only causes the gap to widen between various armies. Some simply cannot or should not be used for competitive play, even if they were competitive under normal circumstances. That is the problem here. You can try to explain that it's only your skill to control the game with Necrons, when in essence it is your capability to grab the objectives at the last moment, something that your opponent might not be able to do.
But that is really the fault of GW, for making this an objectives game, where the various armies are already on an unequal footing.
No, player skill put players on very unequal footing. Yes, the armies aren't completely fair. Certain armies have certain advantages that other armies just don't. That's the way it has always been in this game of ours. But the difference is, the skilled player recognizes the inequities of the matchup and should have his own plans/tactics on how to deal with it. It may still be a tough battle, but just the fact that he is prioritizing the opponent's fast troops over the slow ones means that he still has a fighting chance.
In an ideal world, all the armies are completely balanced. There would also be world peace and no such thing as crime in an ideal world. Sorry, never going to happen.
Spoiler:
There really isn't any practical solution to this besides to just be vigilant. It is the players' responsibilities to keep track of the time. If you are letting your opponent take 2-3x longer to play their turns than yours, then perhaps the problem isn't him but you (the generic you).
It can be as you earlier wrote, that some players are naturally slower. It's easy to become That Guy by calling for the referee often enough. On top of that, proving that your opponent is slow playing on purpose is difficult.
Chess clocks isn't a solution IMO. That is because there is such a big disparity between the different types of armies. Time Clocks will mainly benefit deathstar armies and other, smaller elitist armies and serve to punish larger armies (hordes, IG) or the more complex ones (like Tau and Tyrnaids). All it will end up doing is to discourage variety in tournament play and I am against anything that does that.
So the solution is to announce that no matter what this game will run its natural course, even if it took 5 hours
No, there is no solution, at least none that is practical. But in the Semi-finals or Finals of a large GT, I'd have judges go back and forth between the final 2 tables (and then the final table) to make sure this type of shenanigan (slow-playing) isn't going on. I'd also let those games run to their natural completions regardless of time and "police" any slow-playing that I saw....just like what DarthDiggler did when he ran one of the events at Adepticon.
The Midwest massacre being held locally on sept 19-21 of this year is actually extending its rounds to 2:45 min and there will be no random game length. Matches will be played to 6 turns. Just a heads up of one ot put on your calendar. I am actually the one writing up the mission packet so it should be legit missions. I wont be playing as I will be overseas by then but you might see if you in a couple from your area wanna make the trip.
As for the slow playing bit. In most cases it is easy to tell if your opponent is slow playing. Just let the player know he needs to pick up the pace a little if possible. If that doesn't work have a judge swing by the table to warn them. If that doesn't work then a judge can possibly watch a turn and witness it to take further action.
I had someone slow playing me in one tournament. I needed two turns to do something so they milked me down to like 18 minutes in the round and i was going second. My turn lasted i think 45 seconds. Needless to say I manage to pull off that win. You just have to have a plan if you are put in that type of situation. What needs to be done? Knock that stuff out and then end your turn if your close.
SwistakCZC wrote: Chuck's wraiths was in normal reserves yes? They didnt deep strike am I correct?
Correct. The deployment was pretty funky. It was Hammer & Anvil. However, reserves came in from the long table edges instead of the short table edges that was customary for H-&-A deployment.
Too bad about the white scars but at least you have learned to respect the scars now.
Thanks for sharing all these batreps like this. You getting all these written up and all the pictures taken while concentrating on the tournament is very impressive.
If you really want to play a completely fair game, try flipping coins for Heads-Tails instead.
If only. Coin-Flips have a 51% chance in favor of the side upright at the time of the toss.
4. Bribe your opponent.
This is a 100% effective method. I've never minded when my opponents use it, and they've never seemed to mind when I do.
----------
The issues with tournament time-constraints interacting with objective grabs stems from inability to supply sufficient time for games. With the expanding sizes and complexities of armies, 40k games at 1750-2000 take far too long to run to a normal conclusion in 2 1/2 hours. Expanding the time limits will force there to be less games, making events harder to score and obviously diminishing the experience.
Chess clocks are not a solution, as unlike chess, 40k turns involve both players and vary with armies. I think that slow-playing would actually increase in voracity, as players can waste time on their opponent's clocks ("Oh, let me just pile in every guardsmen exactly 3 inches. Whoops, knocked a few down, better stand them up again and remeasure"...etc).
As jy2 says, when playing in a 40k tournament you should not expect a balanced experience, that is just not the nature of the game. The only real solution is player vigilance and perhaps a decrease in the point values.
If you want a superb and almost entirely balanced tournament game, take up chess.
If you really want to play a completely fair game, try flipping coins for Heads-Tails instead.
If only. Coin-Flips have a 51% chance in favor of the side upright at the time of the toss.
4. Bribe your opponent.
This is a 100% effective method. I've never minded when my opponents use it, and they've never seemed to mind when I do.
----------
The issues with tournament time-constraints interacting with objective grabs stems from inability to supply sufficient time for games. With the expanding sizes and complexities of armies, 40k games at 1750-2000 take far too long to run to a normal conclusion in 2 1/2 hours. Expanding the time limits will force there to be less games, making events harder to score and obviously diminishing the experience.
Chess clocks are not a solution, as unlike chess, 40k turns involve both players and vary with armies. I think that slow-playing would actually increase in voracity, as players can waste time on their opponent's clocks ("Oh, let me just pile in every guardsmen exactly 3 inches. Whoops, knocked a few down, better stand them up again and remeasure"...etc).
As jy2 says, when playing in a 40k tournament you should not expect a balanced experience, that is just not the nature of the game. The only real solution is player vigilance and perhaps a decrease in the point values.
If you want a superb and almost entirely balanced tournament game, take up chess.
Dude whats up with your signature?! So, do you wait for people to say that your smart and stuff and then just show it off? Lol its pretty funny the number of quotes I have seen you go through.
Here's something he can quote:
ImotekhTheStormlord is a walking, talking, breathing, heaving, quoting, obscure-trivia-toting member from the species known as Arcanus Trivialus Obfuscatus.
Thats solid justification. In 1 youre totally right, my mistake. In 2 and 3, youre partially right, I think that sometimes its good to remit some shooting and take better position for next turns (i mean this barge shooted by talons), barge is worth 1 vp, can score and shoots better then scythe with greater flexibility (dont have to fly off board). But damn Ive forgotten that you played relic as well, its mean that youre more than partially right. Thanks for giving me better understanding of that game.
You played very well in whole tournament, Im looking for next batreps with necrons co-starring in
Thanks, but my Necrons are going to take a break for now....
....at least until the next major tournament, which may be coming sooner than you'd think.
Just throwing my hat in here (which is not a big one as I don't play warhammer as often as many of you) but that there is no real way to balance a game, there is always armies that are "better" but I kinda ignore that.
I play magic the gathering VERY competitively, and I know that some decks are "better" then others but I often don't play whatever is the "best" deck. I play decks I like, that use styles and tactics I know and are good with. Player skill will often be the turning point in most games and luck is also something to consider.
The same is true of 40k, some armies are "better" but with some bad dice rolls, or a few tactical errors and suddenly your losing a game that "should" have been your's. I play armies that I am good with first and worry about how to deal with match ups second.
Well sorry for the rant, just had been reading all the discussion and felt I had to pipe up.
Sorry about the hard loss there Jy2, one thing I don't like about the tournament settings sometimes is that one really bad defeat can really knock a guys record from high to low, hope you continue to kick ass in the future and thanks for the battle reports.
No worries, and thanks for chiming in.
I always advocate playing what you like or what think would be funnest. I would never tell anyone that he/she should play an army because they are currently the strongest (unless that is also what that person thinks is the funnest). 40K isn't just about winning. It's about immersing yourself into a fantasy world and being the race you think is coolest. That is also why I don't endorse anything that will stymie variety, which is what I feel something like chess clocks and Destroyer weaponry (ranged) will do. You can win with any army. The only question is, how much do you like to challenge yourself?
Wow, I really didn't mean to side rail the thread with my initial comment.
It is just frustrating when players attribute player skill way higher then they need to. Having turn 2 in a timed event with units like scoring bikes, better yet jetbikes and better still NS troops is the single most decisive factor. Acting like this massive discrepancy doesn't exist or that it isn't as large as it is disingenuous.
Had you gone second in game 5, your decisions would have been on auto pilot for a turn 5 win as in your other games. It is silly how simple it is currently for certain builds to grab a win going second.
T1- smoke your pipe
T2- Grab first blood
T3-4 throw up chaff ie. do enough maneuvering to kill time
T5 Contest and win on FB or sweep with primary
If things are going quicker it is just as easy to play for T6 or 7
That said, I agree with your points with exception to the very bad sports comparisons. It is up to the players to recognize this and bring the right army, but this unfortunately is where the lions share of "skill" derives from currently. That entails bringing the right list (fast troops) and rolling for second turn.
It just strikes me as odd when players admit to horrid game imbalance while in the same breathe attribute wins to tabletop skill like they are some sort of savant. I guess gaming the system is a skill, just one that needs further distancing from battlefield tactic skills IMHO.
No where in here do I mean to discredit you personally. I want that to be clear. You are sharp and would do well in a balanced system, but the current state of the game in regard to tournament play is really not complex at all.
Meta talk aside, this looked like a phenomenal event, with great people, terrain and these batreps as usual are top notch. To me your best skill is story telling, which I value more then skills at a busted game ANY DAY. AND your photos are NEVER blurry... WTF dude hax
Hey! What's wrong with my sports comparison?
Good players recognize what it takes to win games. Their strategy doesn't just begin during gameplay. It actually begins way before that....in the list-building phase. They make sure to build their lists with everything they think it would take to combat the current meta. And yes, that includes bringing mobile scoring. Yes, bringing necron troops in night scythes, windrider jetbikes, drop-podding/deepstriking troops, ways to manipulate reserves, etc. - good players will leverage every advantage they can get and they do it even before they play any games at all. The imbalance comes from the inability for some to recognize what it takes to win games. Thus, they go into the games without necessarily bringing the right tools. In short, when building a TAC list, make sure you take some mobile scoring as well.
DarthDiggler wrote: Any game that ends because of time is a tainted win at best. In 7th there are to many ways to stall the game and make sure the game ends when you want.
I strongly disagree with your statement.
How do you feel about loaded dice?
In almost all competitive settings, there are time restrictions/limits. ....
Yes, and in turn-based games, those limits are the number of turns.
jy2 wrote:
The point is, stalling comes part-&-parcel with competitive events.
There's a difference between stalling within the framework that the game is designed for, and stalling outside that framework. Since you're into the sports analogies, here are a few...
In soccer, there's a running clock. And, when the goalkeeper is holding the ball, the other team is not allowed to attempt to kick it out of his hands. It stands to reason, then, that the winning soccer strategy is to score one goal, and let your goalkeeper hold the ball for the rest of the contest...
Of course, that's not what happens. Because the goalkeeper is expected to return the ball to the field of play in a timely manner. What is a timely manner?? How long can he give his team-mates to get into position to receive his kick? Well, that's up to the referee, and I've seen plenty of yellow-cards called in games for time-wasting.
In American football, controlling the ball to run the clock out is a viable strategy, but it's got its own limits built in. You can only run out the clock while you possess the ball, you can only run out 40 seconds at a time, at which point you have to run a play, and your opponent has a means to counter-act the strategy when they get possession of the ball. The team with the lead can't just waste time endlessly, they still have to run plays and gain first-downs, or the opponent gets the ball back.
Now compare that with turn-based games. Your opponent wants to waste time - you have no recourse.
... Yeah, there are cases in which one player is deliberately slow-playing, and you should call him out on it if you feel that is what he is doing. ...
And what good does that do? I'm pretty sure everyone playing at this level has 100 excuses for why they're not "slow-playing" that would sound legit unless a judge were to monitor the game. What's worse, the real offenders know their plan early on, and waste time in the early turns, before you're watching for it. All of a sudden, you find yourself on turn 3 with 30-45 minutes left, and then the amount of time they spend on their moves seems reasonable. If your opponent goes into a game knowing that he's playing for a four-turn game and wastes 45 minutes between turn 1 and 2, they have a huge advantage over someone who expects to play a five+ turn game. It's just as much cheating to do this as it is to use loaded dice.
But there are also many times that the games don't finish on time that is not due to deliberate slow-playing as well.
Having played 200 model armies at high-level tournaments, I'm generally of the opinion that if a game doesn't finish on time, it's because one (or both) of the players didn't want it to. We're not talking neighborhood tournaments where the guy who plays once every few months stops in and has to keep re-learning the rules, we're talking about upper tables at highly competitive events.
Some good points.
Ok....moving on.
Naw wrote: Unfortunately the message was somehow misunderstood. We all know and understand that armies are not and will not ever be equal. What I meant was that in a timed event the advantage is even more on the more mobile side. I do not think there is a real solution to that as more than one game needs to be played during an event.
There, I got the last words, now let's move on to the Doubles tournament
Agreed.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Shandara wrote: That D-lord as your Warlord, not so much a great choice as great dice!
You know what they say about Necrons.
The greatest Necron players are the ones that can roll the most 's.
TehCheator wrote: Yeah, that DLord came back 3 times against them, he had a total of 6 wounds (3 starting + 3 extras from RP). Him and a wraith or two assaulted and sweeping advanced a unit of broadsides with their warlord commander in it, then assaulted and broke the other squad of broadsides (they would eventually rally but way out of position behind LoS blocking ruins), and then took the charge from the Riptide and broke him off the board. So he pretty much single-handedly took care of the entire Tau half of their army.
Also, I'm pretty sure at least 2 of the times he got back up were on 4's, so the Res Orb earned it's points back and more this game.
Res Orbs are solid gold. Ever since running them on my D-lords, it's now hard for me to drop them. They really are a game-changing piece of wargear.
The Midwest massacre being held locally on sept 19-21 of this year is actually extending its rounds to 2:45 min and there will be no random game length. Matches will be played to 6 turns. Just a heads up of one ot put on your calendar. I am actually the one writing up the mission packet so it should be legit missions. I wont be playing as I will be overseas by then but you might see if you in a couple from your area wanna make the trip.
As for the slow playing bit. In most cases it is easy to tell if your opponent is slow playing. Just let the player know he needs to pick up the pace a little if possible. If that doesn't work have a judge swing by the table to warn them. If that doesn't work then a judge can possibly watch a turn and witness it to take further action.
I had someone slow playing me in one tournament. I needed two turns to do something so they milked me down to like 18 minutes in the round and i was going second. My turn lasted i think 45 seconds. Needless to say I manage to pull off that win. You just have to have a plan if you are put in that type of situation. What needs to be done? Knock that stuff out and then end your turn if your close.
One of these days, I'd like to attend more GT's like the Midwest. But for now, I'm probably limited to traveling 1-2 times a year for major tournaments.
Yeah, it's really up to the 2 player involved to do something about it if they feel that they are being slow-played. Because if they don't, no one else will in most cases.
Also, sometimes when I am playing against someone who is playing "slowly", I even offer to help them to speed up the pace of the game. And I even tell them why I would like to help them - to help move the game along so that we can actually finish it. Such help includes helping them move models if it is a lot, helping them pick up dice if they are rolling a lot of dice and helping them to count/keep track of the number of attacks/wounds for large units. Most people who aren't purposefully slow-playing will gladly accept, but if they refuse, then you really need to pay attention to these players and the time.
ansacs wrote: Good job pulling an award out like that.
Too bad about the white scars but at least you have learned to respect the scars now.
Thanks for sharing all these batreps like this. You getting all these written up and all the pictures taken while concentrating on the tournament is very impressive.
My pleasure!
White Scars are good, but they aren't perfect. They do have some bad matchups. I still think my crons are a potential bad matchup for them, but I will save my vengeance for a future date. Muhahahaha.....
Good players recognize what it takes to win games. Their strategy doesn't just begin during gameplay. It actually begins way before that....in the list-building phase. They make sure to build their lists with everything they think it would take to combat the current meta. And yes, that includes bringing mobile scoring. Yes, bringing necron troops in night scythes, windrider jetbikes, drop-podding/deepstriking troops, ways to manipulate reserves, etc. - good players will leverage every advantage they can get and they do it even before they play any games at all. The imbalance comes from the inability for some to recognize what it takes to win games. Thus, they go into the games without necessarily bringing the right tools. In short, when building a TAC list, make sure you take some mobile scoring as well.
The difference is that while LeBron is much better than most players and it can be easily be argued that his contract is undervalued which undermines the salary cap, the Heat can't spam LeBron to further widen the gap in talent between the teams.
jy2 wrote: And so instead, they go and get Dwayne Wade and Chris Bosh. Lol!
Although Wade and Bosh are good, the difference between them and a replacement player is not as staggering as difference between LeBron and anyone else. Just like most choices in Necron codex are better than similar choices in other codices, but some are miles ahead of others. So if you're forced to take things across the codex that won't be as powerfull as spamming anihilation barges and night scythes.
If those 3 codices have their big three, they're getting a great return on the money they spent on salaries under the salary cap.
The problem for the league is that all the other teams have to spend their salary cap, but they don't have access to good players. That's how the Blood Angels end up with Brandon Jennings, Josh Smith and Greg Monroe and spend the same money for inferior talent.
OMG.... Sports analogies are the next big gaming meme. So bad....
My biggest beef I guess is that the best 40k player isn't always the winner in these GT's.
Will TIMED 40k be balanced? No, never. But that isn't the issue. Myself and I'd imagine others aren't suggesting it.
People keep saying, you want perfect balance? Play chess. Those people aren't getting the main point.
If the game is so imbalanced then it drastically diminishes the credibility or value of being a "champion." I am not saying those players are bad, but most of their skill set is currently geared at gaming the system, not the player/opponent.
I'd love to give people credit with list building but that is hardly a skill anymore thanks to the internet.
I am really hoping they address some of the issues with 7th, but I am starting to gag on the required salt.
Red Corsair wrote: OMG.... Sports analogies are the next big gaming meme. So bad....
My biggest beef I guess is that the best 40k player isn't always the winner in these GT's.
Will TIMED 40k be balanced? No, never. But that isn't the issue. Myself and I'd imagine others aren't suggesting it.
People keep saying, you want perfect balance? Play chess. Those people aren't getting the main point.
If the game is so imbalanced then it drastically diminishes the credibility or value of being a "champion." I am not saying those players are bad, but most of their skill set is currently geared at gaming the system, not the player/opponent.
I'd love to give people credit with list building but that is hardly a skill anymore thanks to the internet.
I am really hoping they address some of the issues with 7th, but I am starting to gag on the required salt.
So me failing to place lower then 5th in any of the events that i attended last year is because the system is messed up and not because I am a good player? If the system is so flawed then why do you consistently see the same players at the top tables? Those players have adapted to the changes and bring units or strategies to the table to deal with the unbalances.
So me failing to place lower then 5th in any of the events that i attended last year is because the system is messed up and not because I am a good player? If the system is so flawed then why do you consistently see the same players at the top tables? Those players have adapted to the changes and bring units or strategies to the table to deal with the unbalances.
Just because some players have embraced the absurdity that 6th ed 40k has become, and done consistently well does not alter the fact that 6th ed 40k bears scant little resemblance to any traditional wargame. You can do well in a messed up system, doing so does denote you as a good player, but does not mean the system is not flawed.
What I see is that some people are willing to embrace 6th ed fully, with allies and min-sized last-turn scoring jetbikes, and 2++ rerolls... and some people want to play a game where a unit of space marines have a place. And some good players are in category A, and some good players are in category B (and, consequently, not really playing much anymore).
Tomb King wrote:One scoring unit in any tournament is ouch. Did they explain why they did it?
I think for mainly 2 reasons:
1. They were like us. They just teamed up at the last moment and took whatever was in their list currently.
2. Their focus was offense. Either table the opponent or lose. Something like that.
Because we had big balls of brass !
Joking aside, that's pretty much what Jy2 said =)
We teamed up shortly before the team tourny : I was looking for skulls to crush after loosing 1st place overall to the infamous thudd gun army in round 5 because of some dice crazyness, Pascal didn't had any team-mate for the team tourny, and we ran into each other something like 30 minutes before the event start. So we decided to team up !
However, as BA and daemons can't technically ally to each other, we asked the TOs how to figure it out. They asked us to designate which one of us was the "primary" detachment and who was the desperate ally (whose units are never scoring).
Plus, because of the models we had at that time, we were limited in our choices.
So we decided to go for a crazy army of Tzeentch daemons with mind-controlled death company / crazy dreads allies, and only 1 scoring unit because we can !
But yeah, we were conscious it was very bad tactically speaking ^^ That's when you decide to play for fun
So me failing to place lower then 5th in any of the events that i attended last year is because the system is messed up and not because I am a good player? If the system is so flawed then why do you consistently see the same players at the top tables? Those players have adapted to the changes and bring units or strategies to the table to deal with the unbalances.
Just because some players have embraced the absurdity that 6th ed 40k has become, and done consistently well does not alter the fact that 6th ed 40k bears scant little resemblance to any traditional wargame. You can do well in a messed up system, doing so does denote you as a good player, but does not mean the system is not flawed.
What I see is that some people are willing to embrace 6th ed fully, with allies and min-sized last-turn scoring jetbikes, and 2++ rerolls... and some people want to play a game where a unit of space marines have a place. And some good players are in category A, and some good players are in category B (and, consequently, not really playing much anymore).
Yea I have noticed a certain drop in the amount of intermediate gamers. I will say for the record that you do not need those above options to still be succesful. You only need to understand completely how they work and then remove the bits the make them so good. I have yet to run a 2++ unit, a seer council, or even jetbikes in 6th edition. I did play 1 unit of jetbikes before eldar got updated though. I am also guilty of using necrons(not wraith spam) but their hardly as broken and easier to deal with.
Dont get me wrong the above stuff does make it easier to achieve a win but its also what everyone is building to fight. You have 3 options, go with the meta, go against the meta, or go with a list that balances the two. I usually like to take somewhat wonky TAC list that people arent really prepared to deal with. Anyone can run 3 riptides or 3 wraithknights etc... That just is not my style. I am actually sad that eldar are so good because I really like how they play.
Red Corsair wrote: OMG.... Sports analogies are the next big gaming meme. So bad....
My biggest beef I guess is that the best 40k player isn't always the winner in these GT's.
Will TIMED 40k be balanced? No, never. But that isn't the issue. Myself and I'd imagine others aren't suggesting it.
People keep saying, you want perfect balance? Play chess. Those people aren't getting the main point.
If the game is so imbalanced then it drastically diminishes the credibility or value of being a "champion." I am not saying those players are bad, but most of their skill set is currently geared at gaming the system, not the player/opponent.
I'd love to give people credit with list building but that is hardly a skill anymore thanks to the internet.
I am really hoping they address some of the issues with 7th, but I am starting to gag on the required salt.
So me failing to place lower then 5th in any of the events that i attended last year is because the system is messed up and not because I am a good player? So you could just be good at playing the system If the system is so flawed then why do you consistently see the same players at the top tables? This one is great, notice that the top players list isn't 3-5 players but according to the TOF Inv. for example is well beyond the 32 that attended, THAT ATTENDED, some weren't invited others didn't make it.Those players have adapted to the changes and bring units or strategies to the table to deal with the unbalances. Notice every one of those lists does the dame thing, taked advantage of rerolls and plays for last turn
Also since you called yourself out chief. I watched you play at NOVA on the live feed, and despite having 3 wave serpents and an immobile fire base to play with. none of your games made it to the games end. Your turns took forever despite never leaving your DZ until you knew when the clock was ending up. Oops.
Target priority, deployment and lists are all available to anyone who can read now. Rules holes too. Dice are random, but the clock never is. Its THE MOST consistent feature in tournament 40k which is why it is arguably the most gamed factor from list design to execution.
So to answer your questions more bluntly, you did well because just as you stated yourself, you dealt with the imbalance of time. You found a hole, and won leveraging it.
Its a skill on its own, I am just tired of hearing that just because a couple people do well at timed events, they somehow are the best players. Best 40k player, sure maybe, but then again maybe not. Best at time management in a comped system, definitely. I just want the difference to be noticed and acknowledged I guess.
If those 3 codices have their big three, they're getting a great return on the money they spent on salaries under the salary cap.
The problem for the league is that all the other teams have to spend their salary cap, but they don't have access to good players. That's how the Blood Angels end up with Brandon Jennings, Josh Smith and Greg Monroe and spend the same money for inferior talent.
I know.
That's why there are upper-tiered, mid-tiered and lower-tiered ballclubs (armies). While everyone wants a Lebron on their team, most won't have him (or another superstar player of a similar caliber).
Naw wrote: I would like to hear how they justify deployment on top of the pod. I mean, wtf?
Maybe it's part of the rules of the Lucious? That you can "disembark" within the Lucious because you can actually fit the dread in there? I don't know for sure as I haven't seen their new rules. It's definitely an interesting mechanic but it didn't really make too much of a difference in this game.
Red Corsair wrote: OMG.... Sports analogies are the next big gaming meme. So bad....
My biggest beef I guess is that the best 40k player isn't always the winner in these GT's.
Will TIMED 40k be balanced? No, never. But that isn't the issue. Myself and I'd imagine others aren't suggesting it.
People keep saying, you want perfect balance? Play chess. Those people aren't getting the main point.
If the game is so imbalanced then it drastically diminishes the credibility or value of being a "champion." I am not saying those players are bad, but most of their skill set is currently geared at gaming the system, not the player/opponent.
I'd love to give people credit with list building but that is hardly a skill anymore thanks to the internet.
I am really hoping they address some of the issues with 7th, but I am starting to gag on the required salt.
You make some good points, but let's just say we can agree to disagree on some of them.
Just because you use the best tools for the job that's available to you doesn't mean you are gaming the system. Everyone has access to the same tools. It's just that not everyone wants to use them. Perhaps some just like to use a regular screwdriver because they actually like to flex their arm muscles. Doesn't mean the guy with the electric drill/screwdriver is less worthy to be a champ just because he didn't want to use a less optimized tool for the job. Because if he wants to handicap/challenge himself by using a normal screwdriver, there will be plenty of other guys out there who will be bringing electric ones to the building party.
So me failing to place lower then 5th in any of the events that i attended last year is because the system is messed up and not because I am a good player? If the system is so flawed then why do you consistently see the same players at the top tables? Those players have adapted to the changes and bring units or strategies to the table to deal with the unbalances.
Just because some players have embraced the absurdity that 6th ed 40k has become, and done consistently well does not alter the fact that 6th ed 40k bears scant little resemblance to any traditional wargame. You can do well in a messed up system, doing so does denote you as a good player, but does not mean the system is not flawed.
What I see is that some people are willing to embrace 6th ed fully, with allies and min-sized last-turn scoring jetbikes, and 2++ rerolls... and some people want to play a game where a unit of space marines have a place. And some good players are in category A, and some good players are in category B (and, consequently, not really playing much anymore).
Things change. Unfortunately, that is a sad fact of life. Things will evolve, and not necessarily for the better (at least in the opinions of some). Honestly, I am not a big fan of a lot of the changes of 6th, even before all the craziness that are dataslates, formations and now super-heavies. There are a lot of good things about 6th, but I hate random charge lengths and I am not a big fan of allies. While allies do allow for some variety (and thus, more $$$ for the almighty GW), all allies really does is to create further imbalance in the game, giving advantages to those armies with the most allies (and most brotherhood allies). That is why I try to play purist armies whenever I can and seldom run allies.
HOWEVER, you either get WITH the program or you get OUT. Those who don't like the game as it currently is, they either leave or they don't play competitively anymore. That's too bad really. As for me, I love the game too much to leave. Thus, I adjust with the times.
Tomb King wrote:One scoring unit in any tournament is ouch. Did they explain why they did it?
I think for mainly 2 reasons:
1. They were like us. They just teamed up at the last moment and took whatever was in their list currently.
2. Their focus was offense. Either table the opponent or lose. Something like that.
Because we had big balls of brass !
Joking aside, that's pretty much what Jy2 said =)
We teamed up shortly before the team tourny : I was looking for skulls to crush after loosing 1st place overall to the infamous thudd gun army in round 5 because of some dice crazyness, Pascal didn't had any team-mate for the team tourny, and we ran into each other something like 30 minutes before the event start. So we decided to team up !
However, as BA and daemons can't technically ally to each other, we asked the TOs how to figure it out. They asked us to designate which one of us was the "primary" detachment and who was the desperate ally (whose units are never scoring).
Plus, because of the models we had at that time, we were limited in our choices.
So we decided to go for a crazy army of Tzeentch daemons with mind-controlled death company / crazy dreads allies, and only 1 scoring unit because we can !
But yeah, we were conscious it was very bad tactically speaking ^^ That's when you decide to play for fun
Hey Adrien! Nice to meet you at the LVO. At the time of our game, I really didn't know how well you did at the Championships. Congrats on a job well done!
Yeah, despite playing as Desperate Allies and with only 1 scoring unit, I think you guys surprised a lot of people (well, your 1st 2 opponents, at least) with how dangerous and how well your armies actually worked together. Honestly, I was actually sweating a little after seeing what you got for your psychic powers.
And while I teamed up with Chuck just before the Team Tournament as well, we were lucky that our armies complemented each others very well, like 2 peas in a pod.
Once again, congrats on the Main Event and also for the success at the Teams Tournament.
Again I don't want my message being misunderstood that skill isn't required or that only the lit matters. My main beef currently is, I suppose, when GT players lend most of the score card to player skill and don't acknowledge that a MASSIVE portion of winning a GT is gaming the tournaments inherent inequities. I agree that this is a skill in it's own right, but has much less to do with 40K strategy.
Tournament winners are very good players, but so are MANY tournament losers. The difference a lot of the time does come down to a very different skill set, one that can be applied to any system with similar flaws. This doesn't make them gods at 40k it makes them gods at gaming flawed systems.
Red Corsair wrote: OMG.... Sports analogies are the next big gaming meme. So bad....
My biggest beef I guess is that the best 40k player isn't always the winner in these GT's.
Will TIMED 40k be balanced? No, never. But that isn't the issue. Myself and I'd imagine others aren't suggesting it.
People keep saying, you want perfect balance? Play chess. Those people aren't getting the main point.
If the game is so imbalanced then it drastically diminishes the credibility or value of being a "champion." I am not saying those players are bad, but most of their skill set is currently geared at gaming the system, not the player/opponent.
I'd love to give people credit with list building but that is hardly a skill anymore thanks to the internet.
I am really hoping they address some of the issues with 7th, but I am starting to gag on the required salt.
So me failing to place lower then 5th in any of the events that i attended last year is because the system is messed up and not because I am a good player? So you could just be good at playing the system If the system is so flawed then why do you consistently see the same players at the top tables? This one is great, notice that the top players list isn't 3-5 players but according to the TOF Inv. for example is well beyond the 32 that attended, THAT ATTENDED, some weren't invited others didn't make it.Those players have adapted to the changes and bring units or strategies to the table to deal with the unbalances. Notice every one of those lists does the dame thing, taked advantage of rerolls and plays for last turn
Also since you called yourself out chief. I watched you play at NOVA on the live feed, and despite having 3 wave serpents and an immobile fire base to play with. none of your games made it to the games end. Your turns took forever despite never leaving your DZ until you knew when the clock was ending up. Oops.
Target priority, deployment and lists are all available to anyone who can read now. Rules holes too. Dice are random, but the clock never is. Its THE MOST consistent feature in tournament 40k which is why it is arguably the most gamed factor from list design to execution.
So to answer your questions more bluntly, you did well because just as you stated yourself, you dealt with the imbalance of time. You found a hole, and won leveraging it.
Its a skill on its own, I am just tired of hearing that just because a couple people do well at timed events, they somehow are the best players. Best 40k player, sure maybe, but then again maybe not. Best at time management in a comped system, definitely. I just want the difference to be noticed and acknowledged I guess.
Alright, interesting stab that was not expected. My first game in the live feed finished and was one sided. The second game I was not the one slow playing and even went first. So not sure where your information was garnished from if in both instances you were incorrect on your assessment.
However, I would say I was a little slow in my first game. It was my first time ever playing the army and I hadn't played in over a month before the event.
Here are a few reasons why I excel at the game:
1. I have played with just about every army that has come out (never bough grey knights). I did this to understand an armies strength and weaknesses. I also do it because I get bored playing the same army for an extended period of time.
2. I come from a very good competitive based gaming group.
3. I am a fire support officer. Most military officers would excel at this game. However, as a fire support officer this is especially so:
The mission of field artillery is to destroy, neutralize, or suppress the enemy by cannon, rocket and missile fire and to help integrate all lethal and nonlethal fire support assets into combined arms operations.
I have received advanced training to increase my recognition and understanding of multiple assets and threats within the same area. I have integrated direct fire, indirect fire, and rotary wing aircraft all in the same engagement. I honestly believe this gives me an unfair advantage over some of my opponents and it is partially responsible for me wanting to drop from competitive gaming. The things you need to do to be a good gamer coincide with what I have been professionally trained to do.
4. Sometimes I wont lie.. I am just lucky.
Finally, for the record I hate 6th edition and cant wait for 7th to hit though I think it will take us further into the realm of a broken system. Grey knights broke 5th but they were still beatable if someone had enough dakka. In 6th edition its a whole new beast.
Here are a few reasons why I excel at the game:
1. I have played with just about every army that has come out (never bough grey knights). I did this to understand an armies strength and weaknesses. I also do it because I get bored playing the same army for an extended period of time.
2. I come from a very good competitive based gaming group.
3. I am a fire support officer. Most military officers would excel at this game. However, as a fire support officer this is especially so:
The mission of field artillery is to destroy, neutralize, or suppress the enemy by cannon, rocket and missile fire and to help integrate all lethal and nonlethal fire support assets into combined arms operations.
I have received advanced training to increase my recognition and understanding of multiple assets and threats within the same area. I have integrated direct fire, indirect fire, and rotary wing aircraft all in the same engagement. I honestly believe this gives me an unfair advantage over some of my opponents and it is partially responsible for me wanting to drop from competitive gaming. The things you need to do to be a good gamer coincide with what I have been professionally trained to do.
4. Sometimes I wont lie.. I am just lucky.
As someone that has actually played you before(many times) all our matches where hard fought and wins did not come easy. As for #3 we all know Enlisted are the ones that control the troops while the officers play frisbee lol
Naw wrote: I would like to hear how they justify deployment on top of the pod. I mean, wtf?
Maybe it's part of the rules of the Lucious? That you can "disembark" within the Lucious because you can actually fit the dread in there? I don't know for sure as I haven't seen their new rules. It's definitely an interesting mechanic but it didn't really make too much of a difference in this game.
Its just a case of Forgeworld writing terrible rules again. The rules for the Lucius gives Shrouded to anything standing on top of it/firing past it, which presumably meant standing on top of the petals. However because of the way this is worded you can argue that you can disembark on top of the main part of the Pod itself. I know Pascal clarified this with FW but I somehow doubt they actually understood what their own rules allowed you to do when they responded. There are absolutely no rules in the game which allow you to handle one model occupying the same space as another model, its a three dimensional game which never allows you to move on top of another model (i.e you have special rules for transports so you don't have two models in the same place) so the game just falls over. For example there is nothing stopping you assaulting the Dread inside the Pod if it has disembarked on top of it, because you ignore the 1" restriction when you are assaulting but then you end up on top of an enemy model in the process. In the absence of a tournament FAQ/TO who understands the rule/FW fixing their mess then allowing it to disembark on top of the Pod works RAW, but you just have to accept that the game mechanics could well fall over in the process.
Thank you for the input. Regarding the Lucious Drop Pod and disembarking within, it doesn't really matter. It's an unclear rule so Pascal brought it to our attention before the game. We were ok with them playing it that way, so whether it was RAW, RAI or wishful thinking, we gave them permission to play it the way they did. No harm, no foul. It's all good.
Yeah, when he explain this strange rule to me i was like "Wut ?", then he said he clarified it with the TOs and FW so in the end it was ok. Plus he explained it thoroughly to each of our opponents so there was no bad surprises for them.
Hey Adrien! Nice to meet you at the LVO. At the time of our game, I really didn't know how well you did at the Championships. Congrats on a job well done!
Thanks ! But at that time i didn't knew either =) They made a small mistake and gave the best daemon title to Goatboy during the "closing ceremony" even if I ended up right before him on overall ranking. Well.. in fact not by much, we were only separated by 3 or 4pts on the Strengh of Schedule (I was 3 ahead on battlepoints, but he had 3 more in painting) so we could say that we both ruled \o/
Yeah, despite playing as Desperate Allies and with only 1 scoring unit, I think you guys surprised a lot of people (well, your 1st 2 opponents, at least) with how dangerous and how well your armies actually worked together. Honestly, I was actually sweating a little after seeing what you got for your psychic powers.
Yep, 3 FMC + 2 SR is still pretty nasty whatsoever ! Plus those lucius pods are making dreads worth something (which is good given the BA current lack of cheesiness).
Once again, congrats on the Main Event and also for the success at the Teams Tournament.
Well you kicked our asses, so congrats to you =) It really was a good game. Plus you made what, 1st or 2nd of the team tourny ?
RabbitMaster wrote: Yeah, when he explain this strange rule to me i was like "Wut ?", then he said he clarified it with the TOs and FW so in the end it was ok. Plus he explained it thoroughly to each of our opponents so there was no bad surprises for them.
Hey Adrien! Nice to meet you at the LVO. At the time of our game, I really didn't know how well you did at the Championships. Congrats on a job well done!
Thanks ! But at that time i didn't knew either =) They made a small mistake and gave the best daemon title to Goatboy during the "closing ceremony" even if I ended up right before him on overall ranking. Well.. in fact not by much, we were only separated by 3 or 4pts on the Strengh of Schedule (I was 3 ahead on battlepoints, but he had 3 more in painting) so we could say that we both ruled \o/
Yeah, despite playing as Desperate Allies and with only 1 scoring unit, I think you guys surprised a lot of people (well, your 1st 2 opponents, at least) with how dangerous and how well your armies actually worked together. Honestly, I was actually sweating a little after seeing what you got for your psychic powers.
Yep, 3 FMC + 2 SR is still pretty nasty whatsoever ! Plus those lucius pods are making dreads worth something (which is good given the BA current lack of cheesiness).
Once again, congrats on the Main Event and also for the success at the Teams Tournament.
Well you kicked our asses, so congrats to you =) It really was a good game. Plus you made what, 1st or 2nd of the team tourny ?
Pascal's playing Blood Angels. That means....you've got to give them the benefit of the doubt.
No wonder I didn't know how well you did. Yeah, it was Goatboy who got the award for Best Daemons.
The combination of your army and Pascal's can hit like a ton of bricks. That's why you shouldn't really ever judge your opponents by just their lists. The synergies of the armies and player skill is much more important IMO and that's just what you guys had. Of course, our armies probably had a little more synergy.
We got Best Generals (most battle points). The other team that also went 3-0 get Best Overall due to better paint scores (and a nice display board).
.
Oh well I cried myself to sleep with my best tau player plaque.
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