Last updated: 9/30/14
Well guys that's it. I'm done. I have literally been ham strung from continuing this project in any meaningful way. What am I talk about? The point that 40k as an ongoing friendly game environment in this area is dead. The one store with in an hours drive in any direction for me, that has play space is situated in an out of the way shopping center that frankly is a pain to get into under normal circumstances, is currently all but inaccessable due to road construction cutting off the most direct access to the shopping center, followed by the second most direct route being declared private property and being barred to through traffic. So now to get to the shop it's make a left on this road that leads into the depths of the forest of doom, now make another left onto the trail of endless woe, then make another left and go over the bridge of infinite death, then make a right and go through the Cave of unending hardships and finally pass through the gates of unending torment.

Yes, I'm talking about making a 7 mile trip through residential areas, about 80% of which are blind turns at 4-way stops in place of going 1 mile on the main road. Thank you country road work. What does this have to do with playing 40k for me? Simple.

Of the the already barely present group of people who had an interest in 40k, only 2 of them would agree to allow me to play test this codex against them (They were tau and Eldar players btw). And with the difficulty in getting to the shop now, they're not coming in for 40k any longer. So, now I have 0 ability to play test the rules.

So... yeah. It was a good run. I'd have liked to finish all three books, but with out the ability to play test anything, it's nothing more then rules-masterbation. Sorry guys. I gave it my best shot.



updated: 08/23/14
- stream-lined the Chaos Boon Table
- Changed Chaos Chosen so max squad size is now 20 models
- Changed cost of Ahirman to 240 points
- Obliterators dropped to 75 points each, gained a second power fist.
- On Chaos Lord, replaced "And They Shall Know no fear" with "They know neither fear, nor loyalty"
- fixed verbiage on Warp Talons regarding Peerless hunter.
- Added Mutilators V1.0



updated: 06/6/14
-Added Ahirman spread vs 1.0

This is the modified army list for this project. The pages here are assumed to supersede the corresponding pages in the Codex: Chaos Space Marines book.



As the project has advanced, we began making large format 2 page spreads for the entry in preperation for producing the actual PDF file that we are ultimately moving to make, These spreads are linked below in 3 forms. The thumbnail themselves, which are linked to a 72 ppi resolution view of the spread. Directly below the thumbnaill is another link to to a High Resolution 300 PPI version of the spread. Some of the spreads get quit text heavy, so the 72 PPI spread become hard to read, thus why the 300 PPI versions are available.

Any text on the spread that is rendered in green, like this, means that the information or rule is there, but is still under consideration for change. By this I mean the rule is there on paper, but I am not convinced it is correct or right so I am still very heavily looking at it.


Head Quarter Units

Abaddon the Despoiler Version 2.0
Abaddon the Despoiler Version 1.0

Ahriman Version 2.1
Ahriman Version 2.0
Ahriman Version 1.0

Typhus, Herald of Nurgle (Unchanged from Codex)

Huron Blackheart (Unchanged From Codex)

Chaos Lord Version 3.0
Chaos Lord Version 2.0
Chaos Lord Version 1.0

Chaos Commander Version 1.0

Elite Units

Warp Smith Version 1.0

Chaos Chosen Version 1.5
Chaos Chosen Version 1.0

Thousand Sons Version 4.1
-Version .1
-Version .2
-Version .3

Helbrute Version 1.0

Khorne Berzerkers Version 4.0 (Updated: 5/27/14)
-Version 3
-Version 2
-Version 1

Nurgle Plague Marines Version 1.0

Fast Attack Units

Chaos Bikers Squad Version 2.0
-Version 1.0
*Chaos Bikers had previously used a double card layout due to size and design. Link for 2nd page: Bikers: Dedication to the Gods upgrade.

Warp Talons Version 1.0

Heavy Support


Obliterators Version 1.5
Obliterators Version 1.0

Chaos Armoury (Now with revamped Chaos Boon Table!)

Armory page 1 and 2. Covers Champions of Chaos and warlord traits. Version 1.0

Armour page 3 and 4, Covers marks and melee weapons Version 1.0
Favor of the Gods Armory page (Full ress image) This is the page that details the respective abilities the Lord would have access to based on their Mark or lack of one.



Previously, we had made smaller quick reference cards for the purposes of reference and game testing. These cards are listed below, but are superseded by material posted above.

Project progress: Below you see a list of units, psychic power tables, and army list modification. If the unit has (Codex) listed next to it, it means that there have been no modifications to the unit and the entry as it appears in the Codex: Chaos Space Marines book. If the unit listing provides a link and provides a version number (such as V.2 and V2.0) that means we have been working on revamping that project and it is linked to the most current unit card for that unit. If there are multiple version numbers listed below the unit in question, this means that we have gone through multiple revisions of the unit but are still providing links to the old unit cards for comparison sake. The individual version numbers will be linked to the older cards.


HQ
Abaddon the Despoiler V.1
Huron Black Heart (Codex)
Kharn the Betrayer (Codex)
Ahriman (Codex)
Typhus (Codex)
Lucius the Eternal (Codex)
Fabius Bile (Codex)
Chaos Lord (Codex)
Sorcerer (Codex)
Daemon Prince (Codex)
Warp Smith (Codex)
Dark Apostle (Codex)
Troops
Chaos Space Marines V.1
Chaos Cultists (Codex)
Chaos Legionary Squad V.2
Elites
Chosen V.1
Possessed (Codex)
Chaos Terminators (Codex)
Helbrute (Codex)
Mutilator (Codex)
Khorne Berzerkers V.3
-Version .1
-version .2
Thousand Sons V.4
-Version .1
-Version .2
-Version .3
Plague Marines (Codex)
Noise Marines (Codex)
Dedicated Transport
Chaos Rhino V.1
Chaos Drop Pod V.1
Fast attack
Chaos Bikers V.1*
*Chaos Bikers are presently using a double card layout due to size and design. Link for 2nd page: Bikers: Dedication to the Gods upgrade.
Chaos Spawn (Codex)
Raptors (Codex)
Warp Talons V.1
Heldrake (Codex)
Heavy Support
Havocs V.1
Obliterator (Codex)
Defiler (Codex)
Forgefiend (Codex)
Maulerfiend (Codex)
Chaos Land Raider (Codex)
Chaos Vindicator (Codex)
Chaos Predator (Codex)

Psychic Discipline Tables
Tzeentch Powers V.1
Nurgle Powers (Codex)
Slaanesh Powers (Codex)

Chaos Marine Traits






///////////////////////////////////Original First post\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\
Okay so before I begin I want to say I'm not saying that Codex: Chaos Space Marines can not build playable lists. I've heard from tournament players what kinds of lists work best. And here's my first issue with Codex: Chaos Space Marines comes into it: I keep hearing the same thing, over and over and over again. Nurgle daemon princes with wings, 1-3 Plague marines, 1-2 units of Noise marines, and 1-3 Heldrakes. Some times I'll hear someone talking about taking Typhus so that they can run mobs of plague zombies and I heard one guy talk about running a Melta-gun equipped Nurgle biker unit. But that's about all I hear about in connection to CSM lists.

And it got my brain rolling, why don't I hear about Khorne Berzerkers or Thousand sons? T-sons are spitting out AP3 bolt shots. Those should be ripping through MEQs with out question. Berzerkers get 4 attacks on the charge. Field 12-14 of these guys and you're hitting targets with 48 attacks on the charge. I mean even horde armies are gonna look at that and go "Um... boss, you sure about this?" And what about Mutilators? They form the weapon they need when they need it, they've got 2 wounds with a 2+/5++. Stick Mark of Nurgle and they become T5, give 'em Mark of Tzeentch and they get a 4++. Give 'em Mark of khorne and they get 5 attacks on the charge plus counter attack. And Chaos Terminators? Why don't I hear about those bad-mofos? I mean they're Terminators with better options. Give 'em Lignting claws and mark of Khorne. Those dude are gonna tear some gak up! And on that note, how about Warp Talons? Those guys have outstanding models, and they come with Lightning claws! Who isn't afraid of a unit of 10 lightning claw equipped jump packers? Given Mark of Khorn and that's 40 AP3 attacks hitting you in the face that get to re-roll failed to-wounds. That hurts! A lot! And as a side note, why do I only ever see people using possessed bits and never the possessed themselves?

So yeah? Why don't we hear about more of these units being used in game? So I started looking into it. Here's what I've found:

Khorne Berzerkers: Okay, they're Khorne Berzerkers. Give 'em Chain axes and they get AP4 attacks, but then they cost 22 points each. They get 4 attacks on the charge, but regular CSMs can get that too. And at 2 points less then naked Khorne Berzerkers. But the Chain Axe makes them AP4... So 4 attacks at WS4 with S5 on the charge with LD 9/10 for 24 (roughly) points for a CSM compared to 4 attacks at WS5 with S5 With LD 9/10 and fearless on the charge with AP4 for 25 (roughly) points for a Berzerker.... huh... Not really sure that's worth it most of the time. Sure be nice if I'm fighting a horde army of Nids or Infantry swarms of Guard. But against MEQs... I mean I guess they work out alright. They're basically CSMs in red once everything is said and done.


Thousand Sons: okay.... 150 points.... for 4 T-sons and a Sorcerer. Okay. Not too bad right there. They are 3+/4++ with AP3 bolters that can basically ALWAY fire twice at 12" and then charge after that... I don't honestly know why you would charge with Thousand Sons. It's important to know that you can! Besides, it's not like anyone will be charging you since you can over watch them into oblivion with your AP3 bolters! Oh... wait. They're Slow and Purposeful. That means they can't over watch.
Well you get a Level 1 psychic with that order so that's cool! He gets to roll on the.... tzeentch table. So he might get... a power he can't actually use because it's Warp power 2. So you'd switch it out for the Primaris power with a 24" range S: D6+1 no AP assault 1 Blast that can generate up to 3 additional S3 hits. Okay, not bad not bad. Nothing really pants dropping but not bad. Might get boon of Mutation, so I can roll on the Boon Table. Okay, Um... I've got a chance to become a spawn or get nothing compared to everything else. And it's limited to a range of 2".... Um yeah. That's a scoop of random with some random sauce and some random sprinkles thrown against a random wall for a random reason. OH! I might get doom bolt! Which... yeah, it's doom bolt. 18" range, S8, AP1 assault1! That'll hurt! But yeah... it's a 1 in 3 shot of getting it.

Possessed: Er... yeah. 26 points a model. the 3+/5+ is nice as it the 2 attacks, and if you given 'em Mark of Khorne they get 4 attacks on the charge promised and the Strength 5 is nice extra. But... they don't really get anything. They are... what they are. Period. And honestly, they're not all that reliable for what they are. I mean they get the Vessels of Chaos chart and there's really nothing bad on it. But it means they basically can't hurt anything with armor. Yeah AP3 attacks are nice, until I get hit by something has a 2+. I can give 'em Icons. Icon of Wrath would be nice. Furious Charge and can re-roll my charge ranges. That's cool. Icon of flame... I have no ranged weapons. at all. period. what goes does this do me? Icon of Despair would give me fear. That's fun. But yeah. It's fear. And they're already daemons. Doesn't that Upgrade to Terror then? Oh that was 2nd ed? What does it do now? Waste 5 points? Oh okay. Moving on. Icon of Excess, feel no pain. Meh, okay. It's feel no pain. It is what it is. Oh The Icon of vengeance! I can that and that'll make 'em Fear..er...less.... they already are fearless. Okay so of the 9 options that are actually available to the unit 3 of them are either worthless or redundant. The Marks are at least options. Hey t5 is always nice. Though that makes them 30 point a model. Mark of khorne, okay more attacks on the charge are always nice, but for 29 points each. Um Tzeentch would make 'em 3+/4++ okay nice. But again for 30 points a model. and Mark of Slaanesh would make 'em I5 for 29 points a model. Stack that last one with the Supernatural speed from the Vessels of Chaos Table and you got some really fast dangerous Mofos. That will strike last in Close combat if charging through cover....

Mutilators: Okay they're 15 points less then Oblits, nice price point for a Close Combat swiss army knife. But they Deep Strike and can't assault on that turn, don't have Frag grenades and can't take a dedicated transport. ouch. So I spend the 165 points for 3 of these dude, and either spend the first turn getting them into a land raider or start foot slogging it across the field. If I do option 1 it means I have to buy the land raider, which isn't a bad thing persay. It's expensive but land raiders are nice. Oh wait, 'cept Chaos Land Raiders don't get Power of the machine spirit. Well that's not a deal breaker. But it does mean the unit cost has gone from 165 to 395. Ouch... okay not such a great deal. Okay so I'll have to really work to make sure they get their points back. That unit of scouts sitting on the Objective. Okay winning the game is worth the 395. I'll just charge 'em after I shoot 'em up with the Land Raider... and they're in cover. They strike before me. Muties don't have frag grenades.... yeah. I guess I could add a character to the unit. Maybe a Warp Smith with Mark of Khorne... well that solves a lot of the problems, but then that makes the investment 515... Yeah that about covers why I won't be taking any Mutilators.


Chaos Terminators: There really isn't a reason to not take these guys. But that's also why they're not used very much. They are what they are. And most of what they can do really well (Close combat) can actually be done better with other options such as mauler fiend. With the Hull Points system in place, Termicide isn't as appealing as it once was since it's largely a wasted effort that can have the same end result achieved by other units that don't need to be sacrificed to accomplish it.


Warp Talons: Hey we're Lightning claw equipped jump packers that will blind when we deep strike next to you... and then... um.... we will... wait... to attack you. Until next turn. Which means you get to shoot at us first. And then shoot at us again when we charge you. Unless you charge us first but we can shoot you fir... oh wait. No. No we can't do that. We don't have any guns. Oh you're not going to charge us first? Okay, great now we'll charge you! In cover, but that's fine because... we.... use.... um... we get a 5++ save? yeah you're going first because these claws really can't handle grenades. [img]http://image.bolterandchainsword.com//public/style_emoticons/default/wallbash.gif
[/img]

So Warp Talons, Thousand Sons, Mutilators are basically worthless to take at all with regards to building a competitive list. All three are high specialized units that are ham strung from doing what they do best. Thousand Sons should be great at shooting all the time, but in reality they're only good at shooting on their terms. They're too expensive to be a speed bump unit and the Sorcerer's randomness is frankly too random to be counted on. Warp Talons and Mutilators would be uber-first strike combat units... if they had an ability to strike at initiative through cover. As it stands in both cases "Hey I'm gonna sit behind thus bush and beat the crap out of you!" is what they hear the most.

So what Terminators and Khorne Berzerkers? Those both look like really good units to take, why don't I see those on the field? Well it's because they're both in the elite section of the army list. Elites are a 0-3 limitation section. And what are these markedly good units competing against from that section? Plague Marines and Noise Marines. Remember what I said I'd heard the most of when talking about CSM army lists lately? 1-3 units of noise marines and 1-3 units of plague marines, usually in combo to each other. Both of those units are in the elites section unless you take a lord/daemon prince/Sorcerer with the appropriate mark to make them troops. So I take a lord with mark of nurgle, get those Plague Marines into the troops section and then take the Noise marines in the elites. Yeah the Berzerkers and Termies don't get taken. If I take a Lord with mark of Slannesh I get the Plagues in the Elites and the Noise 'ems in the troops. Those Zerkies and Termies are still having coffee at home.

What am I going on about? Well a couple weeks I began work on a project to re-design and re-vamp the Chaos Codex. It was originally to be limited to just some force org changes to make more diverse and varied Chaos Space Marine armies possible. Allow variable options of troops based on the lord and his load out, a bit like the Space Marine codex does. If you take a Lord on a bike, you can take biker squads as troops. So that was the objective of that project. But as I worked on it I kept looking at other units, like those that I've already talked about. So that leads me to this: What am I doing with this post.

I want to take a much more detailed look at the Chaos Space Marine Codex, look at every single unit, look at the units interact with one another, look at how the stats stack up against peoples interpretation of the fluff, how it's options work, how they don't work, what options should it have that it doesn't, what options it shouldn't have that it does, what are the pros, what are the cones, all of it. I want to hear from long term Chaos Marine players and I want to hear what you like about the current codex, I want to hear what you hate about it. I want to hear your thoughts about how X unit has changed over editions. I want to hear your opinion about how the units work in the army, how they don't work. Why you take it, why you won't take it.

Why am I asking for all of this information?

Well I want to rebuild the Chaos Space Marine Codex. But I want to dive into the entire process. And I want people to challenge me on it. I want people to offer other views of it. I want to come up with revisions, and then test those revisions in game. Many times. I want to try them 20 times to come to conclusions just to have someone else use the exact same revisions in a way I hadn't considered or even imagined. I want to see how you use the information and then report back on that.

So that is what I'm asking for. You guys to respond to this post with your thoughts.

I only ask for a couple things in return:

1) Respect everyone's statement. everyone is entitled to their opinion. If you feel the opinion is misplaced, explain why you think so. No one-sentence responses please. Explain, and discuss. That's the point of this.

2) when/if you play test a revision of the rules/unit get detailed. report number of shots at what WS, report what terrain you were dealing with. Talk about what you were shooting against, what upgrades each units had, how it worked out, how it didn't work out. What you were planing to do, how it worked out, why it did work or didn't work. Why you feel it didn't work ect.

I did a prior project where I rebuilt the CSM list to accommodate more diverse builds based on the HQ selections, a bit like the Space Marine list. If you take a lord on a bike, bikers are troops, if you take a Warp Smith you can take a helbrute as a troop choice, ect. You can check out the results of that effort below:
.

I've already posted this topic on another forum and gotten some feed back on it. We seem to have started talking about how to revamp the Thousand Sons unit. Here's my initial idea on that front

So, who wishes to embark on a Reign of Chaos with me?

Ok I like it that you have found the flaws of the codex

What I would say is make KB and TS cheaper thats why they are not taken very often... that and compared to PM...

Create Warband/Legion tactics it would flesh out each warband /Legion of CSM, plus one of the biggest complaints of the CSM codex is that its too bland...

Warpsmiths and Daemon machines get something or cheaper

CC units in all get cheaper, Warp Talons need to be cheaper with grenades and Mutilators need to be cheaper

Create two types of dreadnought: The CSM crazy dreadnought with the crazy table as it is and the Hellbrute as a sort of venerable dread, just give it daemon and IWND and people will be happy for that.

And thats what I would do for a CSM codex

For possessed I kind of like what the Horus Heresy series did, making them into expensive but individually powerful units. Like WS 5, Str 5, W 2, A 3 or something like that. I feel like possessed now aren't really an upgrade on marines, just an alternative. Possessed should be marines with pretty big stat boosts seeing how they have daemons inside them.

At least give them access to wargear like the Horus Heresy series did, possessed aren't as useless when they have bolters to shoot with even if they are overpriced.

I made a complementing codex for DA myself.
If you want to see its layout, you can download the PDF here:
https://mega.co.nz/#!tRICGLRJ!OOIhlkSRzKz2abXxLvPaIuYqcmInmb9WgwBwum1gRPo

If you think it is a good idea, perhaps I can help you compile a codex with a similar structure to mine.

I'm down for providing some input from the Thousand Sons perspective. I already use some custom rules and everyone in my group is more than happy to fight against them on a weekly basis.

My main beef with the new 6th Edition Codex is twofold.

Firstly, for an army that lives in the harshest and most terrifying place imaginable they certainly don't represent it on the tabletop, breaking as easily as any non-Space Marine unit. They can be overrun, their loyalist counterparts can't. They are subject to Fear even though they deal with it on a regular basis, yet their loyalist counterparts get to ignore Fear for far less believable reasons. This comes right down to the Chaos Space Marine squads themselves. There's very little incentive to take huge squads of them and they're a bit of a lesser choice when compared to the Cultists. I think they should have their own variation of ATSKNF special rule, one that makes them immune to sweeping advances and Fear, but with the rest reflecting their Chaos nature, perhaps being able to automatically regroup if the squad is a certain size or larger and having Stubborn?

The second beef I have with the codex is how the lore really isn't really added well to the tabletop. Warp Talons are a perfect example, they have absolutely fantastic lore yet the unit we get hardly resembles that lore and more-so feels like a Possessed Raptors squad. Some suggestions for the Warp Talons:
* Give their lightning claws Rending.
* Give them Fleet, but only on the phase they use their jump pack.
* Increase the range of their Blind ability when deep striking. Also, add the ability that, if they use their jump packs in the Assault phase, the enemy they charge is effected by Blind.

To me that and maybe a points adjustment to reflect these changes (if needed) would make the squad far more appealing compared to the likes of the Helldrake (without being as OP).

Apart from that all my other grievances with the Codex are minor. For example I really wish we had Legion Rules, Cult Terminators, Possessed that are more tactically viable (they're fluffy, yes, but its to the point where its a detriment to the unit), and changing the Hellbrute to an MC instead of a vehicle to help further differentiate itself from the loyalist Dreadnought (nice try GW, but a simple name change doesn't make the unit different) and maybe have the Daemon Engines be MCs as well (and ruled so that they act like a bridge between MC and Vehicle, so immune to Fleshbane, Poison, etc).

Oh yeah and Chaos Rewards. I don't believe we should have a massive list, but there should at least be 1-2 non-Steed, non-weapon Chaos Rewards for each Chaos God. Also, I think there should be 3-4 Undivided Artefacts and 1-2 Artefacts for each Chaos God.

I threw up a webpage just a few minutes ago:

http://www.fancodices.com/

If you guys provide me with concrete (balanced) changes, I will incorporate them into a complementary chaos space marine codex.

flodihn wrote:
I threw up a webpage just a few minutes ago:

http://www.fancodices.com/

If you guys provide me with concrete (balanced) changes, I will incorporate them into a complementary chaos space marine codex.

Once we settle on such changes we'll post 'em. Or more likely I'll compile 'em into a complimentary Codex or something.

As an aside the folks over on Bolter and Chainsword got my brain rolling on the Thousand Sons and Khorne Berzerkers. For quick reference I'm making reference cards for each unit for each version or change I put through. That way you just download the card and have it. You can print it if you wish, drop it on you tablet, whatever. I've done cards for the first revamped versions of the Khorne Berzerkers and the Thousand Sons. Check 'em out.

Revamped Khorne Berzerkers Ref Card. Version 0.1

Revamped Thousand Sons Ref Card Version 0.1

2 Wound Rubricae as Troops (Youll probably have three units of them, right?) is a pain in the ass for 6th edition wound allocation rules. Better have lots of wound markers ready, in addition to the spells you are already book keeping.

If I could suggest, keep the same points cost but.

Make inferno bolts a special rule that grants -2 to ap when the model shoots a bolter style weapon.

Then allow the sons a heavy bolter at 10 models. (ap 2 heavy bolters)

Sorcerer can focus on guiding the sons by forgoing shooting and attacking to grant +1bs and +1ws.

in addition if a model with the psyker and MoT is in the unit, it gains 1 warp charge per 5 models in the unit. (note warp charge not Mastery lvl so no extra powers)

then alter the tzeentch table. I hate how the god of drugs has better powers than the god of magic

Primaris
Doombolt (warp charge 1)
S8 ap1 beam attack

1-2
Horror strike (1-3 warp charges)
Witchfire that summons d6 horrors per warp charge expended, the horrors vanish at the end of the turn, the horrors can charge on turn of summoning and if they vanish while in cc inflict d3 s4 hits with haywire on the unit they attacked for each one that dissapers this way.

3-4
Tzeentchian gateway (1-3 warp charges)
Witchfire power select a unit within 18 Inches and move it 6 inches in any direction per warp charge used ignoring the effects of terrain. If it is your own unit you dont need to roll to hit. If the unit does not possess a model with the mark of tzeentch, or demon of tzeentch, inflict d6 s7 hits per warp charge used.
if this power is used on a non infantry unit, the strain on the caster is considerable and he also takes d6 s7 hits per charge used.

5-6
Warptime (1-3 charges)
Blessing that gains additional effects per charge used. Targets the casters unit, effects are cumulative.
1charge
Unit can reroll failed hits
2 charges
Unit rerolls failed to wound rolls
3 charges
Opponent rerolls successful saves on wounds caused by this unit.





Automatically Appended Next Post:
Now here is a unique unit, not the sick hybrid of ork nob and sternguard originally posted. I like my chaos army we ain't loyalists and such I don't want loyalist rip offs in my army.

I have field tested this set by the way.
people enjoyed using tzeentchian gateway to fire juggerlords into cc (khornate cannon) bubble wrapping him in spawn to soak the hits. People said it needed to be nerfed due to turn one charging, but it always is fatal to the psyker and most spawn don't like it either.

Warptime proved a pricy but awesome buff to a shooty unit

Horror strike was just lolsy as they denied overwatch and defensive grenades by locking a unit I cc before a real charge. Requests to replace horrors for furies due to minor improvement in cc (furies are jump) and less shooting as horrors are actually rather good at shooting.

I have plans on the legion tactics dilemma and I think you my like it.




Automatically Appended Next Post:
Good things for players
Ahiman is now useable, triple which fires allow him to cast off 2 teleports. Add ten man thousand sons and 6 warp charges result in much fun
Khornate cannon
Access to haywire with horror strike (may become fury fountain)
10 man thousand sons unit under warptime is grim. And ahrimar will throw this until into your face.

Good things for balance (also known as what people hated)
Sorcerers require a hit to teleport enemies
Killing a single thousand sons reduces the warp buff
They are still expensive, more so when you start attaching sorcerers
Rolling a double one to charge with horrors (another note for the fury campaign)
Warptime doesn't ignore cover
Most units you want to teleport get fried by s7 hits
Witchfire reliance prevents use of powers in cc
Thousand sons without the sorcerer stink a bit.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Legion tactics dilemma solution

We remove mark options from lords and replace with...

Legion tactics.
World eaters (20 pts)
The model receives a mark of khorne, icon of wrath and has +1 ws, khorne berserkers may be taken as troops

Death guard (25 pts)
The model receives a mark of nurgle and blight grenades. Also its initiative is reduced by one and it receives fnp. It may also swap any weapon for a plague knife for free. Plague marines can be taken as troops.

Emperors children (30 pts)
The model receives a mark of slannesh it also obtains fleet, and an icon of excess. Noise marines may be taken as troops

Thousand sons (30 pts)
The model receives a mark of tzeentch and a force weapon, furthermore the model becomes a mastery lvl 1 psyker and can take additional mastery lvls at 25 pts each. Also thousand sons can be taken as troops

Nice buffs for the existing cult lords (you pay for them though)

Iron warriors (30 pts)
The model receives mechatendrites. Also up to 3 vehicles or fortifications can be bought outside of the force organisation chart. Furthermore models with legion tactics special rule can exchange it for stubborn

Night lords (30 pts)
The model gains shrouded, raptors can be taken as troops, furthermore models with legion tactics can exchange it for outflank.

Word bearers (30 pts)
The model gains zealot, models with the champion of chaos special rule get a free roll on the mutation table at the start of the game. Also you can reroll any result on the mutation table.

Alpha legion (20 pts)
The model gains prefererd enemy. You can modify any reserve roll by one, cultist units gain infiltrate, you can swap legion tactics for stealth, all models lose the champion of chaos rule and you may not purchase a demon prince.

Black legion (25pts)
The model gains crusader and votlw, you can swap legion tactics for veterans of the long war.

Phew that took a while
Non cult marine units gain legion tactics which does nothing

Well Blackskull, thank you for that huge ungainly wall of text that appears to cover everything in your wish list.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Blackskull wrote:
If I could suggest, keep the same points cost but.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Now here is a unique unit, not the sick hybrid of ork nob and sternguard originally posted. I like my chaos army we ain't loyalists and such I don't want loyalist rip offs in my army.

I have field tested this set by the way.
people enjoyed using tzeentchian gateway to fire juggerlords into cc (khornate cannon) bubble wrapping him in spawn to soak the hits. People said it needed to be nerfed due to turn one charging, but it always is fatal to the psyker and most spawn don't like it either.

1- Thank you very much. It's always nice to see ones work ignored as being a 'sick hybrid' and just a rip off of someone else work.

2- what's your field test data? game size? opponent? army comp? turn count? anything?

And if we get a good enough codex, all we have to do is contact GW and they'll toss up a new codex next month?

Johnnytorrance wrote:
And if we get a good enough codex, all we have to do is contact GW and they'll toss up a new codex next month?

haha! oh how I wish it were that simple.

No, chances are quit high if we took such a route that GW would simply ignore us. No, what we would need to do in order to get GW involved would be build the codex like we're doing, and create a lot of hype around it. Get other people talking about it and using it. As that base grows GW will get wind of it. Since it's not intended to be any sort of "release" GW can't tell us to stop it. But chances are they're start looking at it. And slowly the designer(s) will see what we're doing. From there... well it gets decidedly more murky as to what could and might happen. Either way, this isn;t really for GW. This is for us. The Chaos players who are tired of dealing with a 3rd tier codex where 1/2 the units just aren't worth taking along side the other half. Where every time a new codex comes out and there's something that hurts us the answer is "Well then go play real Army (IE: Just use allies)." I'm personally sick of it and if GW isn't going to help us out, guess what? We're gonna deal with it.

If it actually gets popular and excepted in most settings. I would be willing to use it.

Maverike_prime wrote:
Well Blackskull, thank you for that huge ungainly wall of text that appears to cover everything in your wish list.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Blackskull wrote:
If I could suggest, keep the same points cost but.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Now here is a unique unit, not the sick hybrid of ork nob and sternguard originally posted. I like my chaos army we ain't loyalists and such I don't want loyalist rip offs in my army.

I have field tested this set by the way.
people enjoyed using tzeentchian gateway to fire juggerlords into cc (khornate cannon) bubble wrapping him in spawn to soak the hits. People said it needed to be nerfed due to turn one charging, but it always is fatal to the psyker and most spawn don't like it either.

1- Thank you very much. It's always nice to see ones work ignored as being a 'sick hybrid' and just a rip off of someone else work.

2- what's your field test data? game size? opponent? army comp? turn count? anything?

Currently we have 3 players Including myself on our own experimental rules table. We play each other and occasionally someone comes from the main club floor to try our rules providing we have tested it, outlined it, and its not revoltingly broken.

Also we have been experimenting with thousand sons for a while now since I found a post on dakka titled rubric marines reconsidered. Our games are many and we correct when needed, with games ranging from 500 pts to 1850pts. Current opponents include marines eldar tyranids tau and Astra millitarum. In the original rubric marines reconsidered post, a similar unit to yours was posted and rejected by the group, I haven't rejected your unit we have just played with similar and found them lacking synergy with any other chaos unit. We currently have 8 games playing with our versions and we fully support your projects direction, this is a great thing you are doing and I simply want it to be the best it can be.

The legion tactics thing is from our chalkboard and hasn't been tested, we plan to run your bezerker remake tonight

PS that's not even half of what's on my list

Death To All Who Oppose Us
Units with this special rule have the Stubborn special rule and will automatically regroup at the start of the turn so long as their unit consists of 10 or more models. Units which regroup automatically in this fashion may perform actions during their turn as if they had not broken. If a unit containing one or more models with this special rule is caught in a Sweeping Advance, they are not destroyed, but remain locked in combat instead. In addition, a unit that contains at least one model with this special rule is immune to Fear.


As for Legion Rules I don't think we should be paying points on top of what we're already taking, it should be something that is innate and built into the rules of the Codex itself. Perhaps Veteran of the Long War provides the Legion rules instead of the current +1 Ld and Preferred Enemy (Space Marines) special rule. I imagined a system where each Legion's rules were comprised of three parts: Army-wide Effect/Rule, Veterans of the Long War bonuses, and a bonus to Chosen which makes them unique depending on which Legion you take. Would be cool if Red Corsairs got their own Legion rules as well, perhaps giving them access to more contemporary weapons (such as Assault Cannons, Multi-meltas, Plasma Cannons, Storm Shields, etc).

bleh, just came back and actually read my now tri-edited post which makes me look like an hypocrite because it does exactly what I'm asking Blackskull not to do. .... okay. Fixing this.



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 Blackskull wrote:

Maverike_prime wrote:
Well Blackskull, thank you for that huge ungainly wall of text that appears to cover everything in your wish list.

PS that's not even half of what's on my list

If I can make one request on that front: Please don't post the huge chunks of info. Break it down into smaller chucks that directly connected to a given unit. All the info on the Khorne Berzerkers in one post for instance, all the info for the Plague Marines in another, and then all the info for the Legion Traits: Iron Warriors (I'm still going to say that belongs in a different book by the way) in another.

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 Marik Law wrote:
Death To All Who Oppose Us
As for Legion Rules I don't think we should be paying points on top of what we're already taking, it should be something that is innate and built into the rules of the Codex itself. Perhaps Veteran of the Long War provides the Legion rules instead of the current +1 Ld and Preferred Enemy (Space Marines) special rule. I imagined a system where each Legion's rules were comprised of three parts: Army-wide Effect/Rule, Veterans of the Long War bonuses, and a bonus to Chosen which makes them unique depending on which Legion you take. Would be cool if Red Corsairs got their own Legion rules as well, perhaps giving them access to more contemporary weapons (such as Assault Cannons, Multi-meltas, Plasma Cannons, Storm Shields, etc).

Yeah, I'm gonna say it right now: I do not feel that there should be Legion rules in the Chaos Space Marines book. A hint of them, perhaps. have them limited to one unit that can access them, sure I can roll with that. But I do not feel like you should be able to build The [insert legion name here] Legion out of the Chaos Space Marines book. Well, to be blunt I don't think there should actually be a Chaos Space Marines book. I feel it should it should be broken into 2 separate books. The first being "Chaos Renagades" and the second being "Traitor Legions". Chaos Renagades would be largely the Traitors that have fallen since the heresy. The lone marines, The Traitor Guard Platoons, the random squad. The occasional company and the odd 1/2 of a chapter that wipped out the other half in the civil war. that kind of thing. Sure there are legion vets in there. But they are hardly the back bone of armies built out of this book. The Traitor Legions would be the book that covers the remains of the Legions and that is where you would want to look at if you wanted to a Night Lords army, or an Iron Warriors Grand Company.


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 Blackskull wrote:
we plan to run your bezerker remake tonight

Please post results with army comps on that.



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Automatically Appended Next Post:
Put together a new unit card for the Thousand Sons based on your suggestion BlackSkull.

Thousand Sons Unit card V.2

and here's the one for the Berzerkers:

Khorne Berzerkers Unit Card V.1


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Updated Tzeentch Power table based on Skull's recommendations:



and had to fix the cards for the Thousand Sons and Berserkers:

I have a horrible headache, had a lot of fights to sort out.
but the gaming was simply awesome

game 1 featured Dark angels vs Chaos Revamped 1500pts
chaos used a 10 man berserker squad with 5 chain glaives (due to the wording the champion was carrying one)
their was also a 10 man squad of the new blend of thousand sons (not sure what they thought about it when I gave them the rules but their was much nodding)

Game 2 ME and Chaos revamped vs Chaos revamped 1500pts
Annoyingly I left my list at the club but I had 15 man thousand sons squad to guard my sorcerer, opponent iron warrior player with raider mounted berserker squad with all chain glaives, and a tzeentchian sorcerer

then we had a discussion on rules, amended a few and the 2 games had rematches with the other opponent (I played against dark angels)

Berserker summery
game 1
unfortunately met a sticky end against some deathwing knights turn 2 (DA player took no chances) did nothing but move up all game.

Game 2
I got massacred, tzeentchian gateway was used to fire a land raider into my face from stationary so it still fires all weapons as it had not moved in the movement phase (but rather the shooting phase). the lucky sod rolled 3 1s on S7 hits for his sorcerer and saved 2 so the sorcerer was still alive. then the bezerkers came out and killed
a predator
a defiler
my warlord
and the thousand sons.
after this we sat down and had a discussion about chain glaives, and fluff.

OUR PROPOSALS
Berserkers have FNP in cc, it fits with the fluff as berserkers have been sliced in half yet still continue to hack the legs off anyone within reach, incorporate into blazing charge to avoid over stuffing with rules

price raised to 20pts per model

Berzerkers gain a special weapons table that any model can take from. they get 1 weapon +1 for every 5 models (so 3 at 10) the weapons pts values are listed below.
chain glaive 10pts
lightning claw 10pts
power weapon 10pts
power fist 20pts
Redsun blade 20pts
S user Ap - (daemon weapon)

Redsun blade [fluff courtesy of mark (dark angel player) who designed the weapon]
these weapons were first designed by Warpsmith Redsun, who found that forging a blade from the brass of a juggernaut and engraving it with runes to khorne allowed it to function as a rudimentary soul trap for the creation of a daemon weapon. while unsuitable for the confinement of greater daemons like the true weapons of legend the blades could confine a lesser demon if only for a brief time. before battle a berserker must summon a daemon and drive the blade through its chest before combat. the blade is then kept in a blood filled sheath to appease the newly contained demon, the act of drawing one in cc results in a great blood spray and soiling of many trousers.

with the new rules in place the games continued (note thousand sons were also modified in this time)

Game 3 (chaos revamped vs iron warriors)
the iron warriors had to modify the load out of the berserkers, he opted for a chain glaive champion and 2 Redsun blades. his opponent dropped 2 glaives and replaced one for a power fist on his champ and then modded his terminators with the remaining points.

the iron warrior fired the land raider up (sorcerer died) turn 1 chaos then moved in with the thousand sons teleporting and after a lucky lascannon destroyed the raider (no zerkers were harmed) the sons boltered the crap out of the zerkers killing 6 (the crater left by the raider provided great cover) seeing that their was only 4 left the sons decided to charge. BIG MISTAKE counter attack was successful and due to the placement of the aspiring sorcerer he was killed by overwatch fire. the zerkers also still had all the special weapons left, end result 8 sons dead, zekers no casualty's made all the fnp rolls. iron warriors turn saw the death of one bezerker and the end of the thousand sons. they consolidated towards some cultists who managed to kill 2 the following turn with autogun fire (fail). the last one charged in with his redsun blade, which then decided to kill him. (sigh)

Game 4 (me vs dark angels)
no berserkers were harmed, or even used in the playing of this game.


Thousand sons summery
game 1
proved to be the ultimate marine killers, but stupidly hard to kill, end of the game despite being absolutely hammered they still had 7 marines left, including sorcerer, due to musical wounds. termicide units worked in breaking lascannons and the like so they had to try kill them with bolter fire which didn't go so well, even plasma proved meh when fighting them. sulking ensued.

game 2
was awful sons were the first to be charged by the chain glaive monsters and over 2 turns they were all killed along with my sorcerer, to try and save them I charged my defiler in and he bit the dust too.

OUR PROPOSALS
we were left with a choice, nerf or raise points, we chose to nerf.

we added one fluff laced rule to nerf the sons
Dust To Dust
attacks that ignore this models armor save also inflict instant death.

being animated constructs of sealed armor breaking them open is frankly the worst thing you can do to a son. bolter fire and the like is still a laughable attempt to kill a son but plasma is not and neither is rending, although the aspiring sorcerer often takes those hits with the 3+ invun he carries

Game 3
DtD was responsible for the deaths of half the squad due to the berserker charge having a chain glaive. but charging was a really bad decision...berserkers just rock

Game 4
had to be very careful due to plasma, and power weapon vulnerabilities but they performed great, killing 2 full tactical squads and capping an objective, gateway is a brilliant way to move these guys and if you position characters correctly you can benefit form the 3++ save they carry to prevent plasma death (unfortunately I lost the aspiring sorcerer doing just that). all in all a fun game and while the dark angle play admitted they were very good he didn't think them the impossible bulwark of death that was previously being used (I had 3 sons left at the end).


NOTE ON TERRAIN
the other club members were playing a cities of death campaign and stole most of it so cover was fairly scarce and featured a beer can and a lunchbox hill

I think all of you bring valid points to the issue with thousands sons and khorne berzerkers.

I have reviewed the posts here and the read the results of the player tests.

Honestly, I think the khorne berzekers are fairly priced if you compare to an upgraded space marine squad. However, their issue is not the unit itself but its lack of delivery.

Therefore, I made up a new exciting and equally dangerous vehicle that has a rule called "explosive assault vehicle", I assume you can guess what it does but for details please download this very simple chaos space marine codex (still WIP):

http://www.fancodices.com/ChaosSpaceMarinesCodex.pdf

I think the rules I presented will add a great deal of fun to a game, the opponent having to shoot down the rhinos before they deliver the berzerkers, and the chaos player will hope not to loose too many berzerkers by his/her own detonations (khorne does not like cowards).

You present a valid point but I doubt even the world eaters are idiot enough to use explosive transports.

Delivery of cc units is an issue for every army, and to put it bluntly, none of them get any help with it and neither should we.

Saying this, a chaos drop pod is not unrealistic or unreasonable, and would help zerkers a lot.

I looked up the lore and I see no reason why chaos space marines would not get access to standard drop pods, strange that GW has not added them to the codex.

I will add a drop pod as an option, however, I think we have to be careful, a berzeker heavy list arriving by drop pod could easily become over-powered.

PS. Chaos space marines are by definition mad, specially khorne/word eaters berzerker, I am pretty sure they would have no problem using an explosive transport.

flodihn wrote:I looked up the lore and I see no reason why chaos space marines would not get access to standard drop pods, strange that GW has not added them to the codex.

I will add a drop pod as an option, however, I think we have to be careful, a berzeker heavy list arriving by drop pod could easily become over-powered.

PS. Chaos space marines are by definition mad, specially khorne/word eaters berzerker, I am pretty sure they would have no problem using an explosive transport.

They are anger driven, yes but they're not frothing at the mouth crazy mad. If they were, the World Eaters would have died out centuries ago or be confined to one single planet while Berzerkers in general would be stupidly easy to deal with. You'd just lead them around with a carrot (not literally a carrot mind you) and walk them right into a firing range. Ah, problem solved. It's why I disliked the 3.5 codex Berserkers so much. They were functionally slowed and in reality would never be a threat to anyone with an once of tactical ability. In order for the World Eaters and Berzerkers to remain a viable threat, they would absolutely without recourse or option MUST have been able to create and maintain societal cohesion in order to achieve the requirements needed to launch and maintain interstellar ships of any kind to say nothing of a military operation on the scale of inter-planetary war.

Blackskull wrote:I have a horrible headache, had a lot of fights to sort out.
but the gaming was simply awesome

game 1 featured Dark angels vs Chaos Revamped 1500pts
chaos used a 10 man berserker squad with 5 chain glaives (due to the wording the champion was carrying one)
their was also a 10 man squad of the new blend of thousand sons (not sure what they thought about it when I gave them the rules but their was much nodding)

Game 2 ME and Chaos revamped vs Chaos revamped 1500pts
Annoyingly I left my list at the club but I had 15 man thousand sons squad to guard my sorcerer, opponent iron warrior player with raider mounted berserker squad with all chain glaives, and a tzeentchian sorcerer

then we had a discussion on rules, amended a few and the 2 games had rematches with the other opponent (I played against dark angels)

Berserker summery
game 1
unfortunately met a sticky end against some deathwing knights turn 2 (DA player took no chances) did nothing but move up all game.

Game 2
I got massacred, tzeentchian gateway was used to fire a land raider into my face from stationary so it still fires all weapons as it had not moved in the movement phase (but rather the shooting phase). the lucky sod rolled 3 1s on S7 hits for his sorcerer and saved 2 so the sorcerer was still alive. then the bezerkers came out and killed
a predator
a defiler
my warlord
and the thousand sons.
after this we sat down and had a discussion about chain glaives, and fluff.

OUR PROPOSALS
Berserkers have FNP in cc, it fits with the fluff as berserkers have been sliced in half yet still continue to hack the legs off anyone within reach, incorporate into blazing charge to avoid over stuffing with rules

price raised to 20pts per model

Berzerkers gain a special weapons table that any model can take from. they get 1 weapon +1 for every 5 models (so 3 at 10) the weapons pts values are listed below.
chain glaive 10pts
lightning claw 10pts
power weapon 10pts
power fist 20pts
Redsun blade 20pts
S user Ap - (daemon weapon)

Redsun blade [fluff courtesy of mark (dark angel player) who designed the weapon]
these weapons were first designed by Warpsmith Redsun, who found that forging a blade from the brass of a juggernaut and engraving it with runes to khorne allowed it to function as a rudimentary soul trap for the creation of a daemon weapon. while unsuitable for the confinement of greater daemons like the true weapons of legend the blades could confine a lesser demon if only for a brief time. before battle a berserker must summon a daemon and drive the blade through its chest before combat. the blade is then kept in a blood filled sheath to appease the newly contained demon, the act of drawing one in cc results in a great blood spray and soiling of many trousers.

with the new rules in place the games continued (note thousand sons were also modified in this time)

Game 3 (chaos revamped vs iron warriors)
the iron warriors had to modify the load out of the berserkers, he opted for a chain glaive champion and 2 Redsun blades. his opponent dropped 2 glaives and replaced one for a power fist on his champ and then modded his terminators with the remaining points.

the iron warrior fired the land raider up (sorcerer died) turn 1 chaos then moved in with the thousand sons teleporting and after a lucky lascannon destroyed the raider (no zerkers were harmed) the sons boltered the crap out of the zerkers killing 6 (the crater left by the raider provided great cover) seeing that their was only 4 left the sons decided to charge. BIG MISTAKE counter attack was successful and due to the placement of the aspiring sorcerer he was killed by overwatch fire. the zerkers also still had all the special weapons left, end result 8 sons dead, zekers no casualty's made all the fnp rolls. iron warriors turn saw the death of one bezerker and the end of the thousand sons. they consolidated towards some cultists who managed to kill 2 the following turn with autogun fire (fail). the last one charged in with his redsun blade, which then decided to kill him. (sigh)

Game 4 (me vs dark angels)
no berserkers were harmed, or even used in the playing of this game.


Thousand sons summery
game 1
proved to be the ultimate marine killers, but stupidly hard to kill, end of the game despite being absolutely hammered they still had 7 marines left, including sorcerer, due to musical wounds. termicide units worked in breaking lascannons and the like so they had to try kill them with bolter fire which didn't go so well, even plasma proved meh when fighting them. sulking ensued.

game 2
was awful sons were the first to be charged by the chain glaive monsters and over 2 turns they were all killed along with my sorcerer, to try and save them I charged my defiler in and he bit the dust too.

OUR PROPOSALS
we were left with a choice, nerf or raise points, we chose to nerf.

we added one fluff laced rule to nerf the sons
Dust To Dust
attacks that ignore this models armor save also inflict instant death.

being animated constructs of sealed armor breaking them open is frankly the worst thing you can do to a son. bolter fire and the like is still a laughable attempt to kill a son but plasma is not and neither is rending, although the aspiring sorcerer often takes those hits with the 3+ invun he carries

Game 3
DtD was responsible for the deaths of half the squad due to the berserker charge having a chain glaive. but charging was a really bad decision...berserkers just rock

Game 4
had to be very careful due to plasma, and power weapon vulnerabilities but they performed great, killing 2 full tactical squads and capping an objective, gateway is a brilliant way to move these guys and if you position characters correctly you can benefit form the 3++ save they carry to prevent plasma death (unfortunately I lost the aspiring sorcerer doing just that). all in all a fun game and while the dark angle play admitted they were very good he didn't think them the impossible bulwark of death that was previously being used (I had 3 sons left at the end).


NOTE ON TERRAIN
the other club members were playing a cities of death campaign and stole most of it so cover was fairly scarce and featured a beer can and a lunchbox hill

Jesus, I'm lucky if I can get in that many games in a month.

So yeah I think the DtD rule is a good way to go. I'll put that on the next version of the card. How is the Sorcerer getting a 3++? He should have a 4+.

And I was looking at the Berzerker card in light of your results. There are one of two things I can think of in response to your results, well actually several things but first things first.

The Chain Glave needs to be changed. Either the price needs to be increased, or the rules need to change to comply with a 10 point price tag. but S7, AP3... yeah. That's brutally cheap for 10 points. Personally I'm thinking AP4 with the unwieldy rule in any subsequent round of combat.

Thoughts?

Also did you try the Blazing Charge or the Ravager blades?

flodihn wrote:I think all of you bring valid points to the issue with thousands sons and khorne berzerkers.

I have reviewed the posts here and the read the results of the player tests.

Honestly, I think the khorne berzekers are fairly priced if you compare to an upgraded space marine squad. However, their issue is not the unit itself but its lack of delivery.

Therefore, I made up a new exciting and equally dangerous vehicle that has a rule called "explosive assault vehicle", I assume you can guess what it does but for details please download this very simple chaos space marine codex (still WIP):

http://www.fancodices.com/ChaosSpaceMarinesCodex.pdf

I think the rules I presented will add a great deal of fun to a game, the opponent having to shoot down the rhinos before they deliver the berzerkers, and the chaos player will hope not to loose too many berzerkers by his/her own detonations (khorne does not like cowards).

flodihn wrote:I looked up the lore and I see no reason why chaos space marines would not get access to standard drop pods, strange that GW has not added them to the codex.

I will add a drop pod as an option, however, I think we have to be careful, a berzeker heavy list arriving by drop pod could easily become over-powered.

PS. Chaos space marines are by definition mad, specially khorne/word eaters berzerker, I am pretty sure they would have no problem using an explosive transport.

Yeah, see my prior comment about the CSMs being mad. And like wise, using an exploding transport... yeah. I'm sorry but I just don't see that happening. Now, packing a transport with explosives and using that to break up a formation or gun line I can see happening.



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|| DIVIDER PUT IN FOR EASE OF CONTENT MANAGEMENT ||
|| TOPIC: Revamped units ||
|| REVISED UNITS: Thousand Sons V.3 ||
|| REVISED UNITS: Khorne Berzerkers V.2 ||
|| REVISED UNITS: Chaos Rhino V.1 ||
|| ADDED UNITS: Chaos Drop Pod V.1 ||
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So, did some revamp on the Thousand sons unit. The Sorcerer was NOT supposed to have a 3++. He was supposed to have a 4++ so fixed that. Added the "All is dust" rule. Changed the name from Dust to Dust as a reference to the opening line in the "A Thousand Sons" book.



Revised the Chain Glave based on feedback from Black Skull.


I actually kind of liked the suggestion of an idea that Flodihn made with an exploding rhino... but not as a transport. So I added an upgrade option to the rhino.


And I created an entry for a Chaos Drop Pod:



And just for reference, the revamped Tzeentch Powers table.

hate to be picky but the Khorn berserker jokes are getting out of hand (please add the e on the card)

secondly the extra pistol should not be free as it doubles their shooting power at no effect on cc (gunslinger) the only reason why my players didn't run gunzerker was because they were distracted by chain glaives

could you possible write chain glaives as
S +1 AP3 two handed
ap weapons are important to cc squads, and these are berserkers who are the best in this respective field, look at death company their blood angel equivalents, they are packing, put a limit on glaive numbers though. and make it so they swap pistol and cc for one, then you don't have to omit the blazing charge so much

FnP in cc suits the butchers nails fluff as berserkers feel very little else unless killing, maiming, or burning. it also gives defence against hordes.

the thousand sons points card doesn't add up 5 sons cost 115pts yet the unit base cost is 130? was this intentional, tzeentches favour is meant to be every 5 models to account for the high charge requirement of the powers.
Also RAW allows multiple sorcerers may want to curb that

blazing charge didn't see much use as if you read the reports the only berserker charge involved chain glaives, oddly people seemed to want to charge the zerkers which actually makes a lot of sense as on the charge these guys are unstoppable.

 Blackskull wrote:
hate to be picky but the Khorn berserker jokes are getting out of hand (please add the e on the card)

secondly the extra pistol should not be free as it doubles their shooting power at no effect on cc (gunslinger) the only reason why my players didn't run gunzerker was because they were distracted by chain glaives

could you possible write chain glaives as
S +1 AP3 two handed
ap weapons are important to cc squads, and these are berserkers who are the best in this respective field, look at death company their blood angel equivalents, they are packing, put a limit on glaive numbers though. and make it so they swap pistol and cc for one, then you don't have to omit the blazing charge so much

FnP in cc suits the butchers nails fluff as berserkers feel very little else unless killing, maiming, or burning. it also gives defence against hordes.

the thousand sons points card doesn't add up 5 sons cost 115pts yet the unit base cost is 130? was this intentional, tzeentches favour is meant to be every 5 models to account for the high charge requirement of the powers.
Also RAW allows multiple sorcerers may want to curb that

blazing charge didn't see much use as if you read the reports the only berserker charge involved chain glaives, oddly people seemed to want to charge the zerkers which actually makes a lot of sense as on the charge these guys are unstoppable.

okay, I'm confused. The berzerkers weren't out of hand when they a S7 AP3 striking at initiative on the charge, but they are out of hand when they only have when they have a S7 AP4 that strikes on intitiative only on the charge and otherwise causes them to strike at Initiative 1.....? isn't that backwards?

the out of hand part was the missing "e" on the card that had everyone behaving like 4 year olds and saying the name wrong on purpose because that's how it was spelt on the card

chain glaives though I have mixed opinions on as 2 profiles have been proposed

S +1 Ap3 two handed :
which I think is ok, providing taking one removes the pistol, you then trade in for 3 S6 ap3 attacks on charge compared to the 4 S5 ap- attacks and 2 S4 ap5 shots from the pistol (factoring in blazing charge)

or S +2 ap4 two handed unwieldy*
essentially a 2 handed power maul with variable unwieldy, power mauls are 5pts more on the wargear list but Im not sure that a 5 pt reduction is worth the unwieldy/ two-handed debuff especially on a model that has only 1 attack base. this should be cheaper, around 6-7 pts

Blackskull wrote:hate to be picky but the Khorn berserker jokes are getting out of hand (please add the e on the card)

secondly the extra pistol should not be free as it doubles their shooting power at no effect on cc (gunslinger) the only reason why my players didn't run gunzerker was because they were distracted by chain glaives

could you possible write chain glaives as
S +1 AP3 two handed
ap weapons are important to cc squads, and these are berserkers who are the best in this respective field, look at death company their blood angel equivalents, they are packing, put a limit on glaive numbers though. and make it so they swap pistol and cc for one, then you don't have to omit the blazing charge so much

Can I? with out question yes I can. the more relevant question is "Will I?" and the answer is yes I will provided I'm convinced of the need to do so. You make several good points that I'm taking into account with the new revision. Pistols: yup. They're gonna cost ya 2 points per model.

As for the Chain Glave/pistol point, I can understand your reasoning and I don't disagree with it, but I feel that it's sacrificing tactical ability for vague fluff reasons. The Blazing Charge was always written as excluding the use of a Chain Glave. If you charged with a chain glave, you could not perform a blazing charge .That's been in there since v.1 of this unit for this project. So with that in mind, why should you sacrifice your ability to shoot at all just because you've got a big axe?

Blackskull wrote:hate to be picky but the Khorn berserker jokes are getting out of hand (please add the e on the card)
FnP in cc suits the butchers nails fluff as berserkers feel very little else unless killing, maiming, or burning. it also gives defence against hordes.

I can certainly see the logic of feel no pain, though I do have to point out that I've heard an argument made for every cult troop having feel no pain so at the risk of sounding rather douchish, and I do apologize for it upfront, I'm going to have to ask for a better justification then the fluff. Also if we add FnP to the unit, that means they now have Fearless, Blazing Charge, Furious Charge, and FnP. Not exactly saying there should be a limit of how many special rules there can be for one unit but just saying that is something to keep in mind. Of course that being said, the Thousand Sons currently have 10 special rules on their card so... yeah.

Blackskull wrote:
the thousand sons points card doesn't add up 5 sons cost 115pts yet the unit base cost is 130? was this intentional, tzeentches favour is meant to be every 5 models to account for the high charge requirement of the powers.
Also RAW allows multiple sorcerers may want to curb that

No, the 130 price tag it was not intention. That was a hold-over from when I originally typed up the card using the information from the current codex. As for the 5 versus 10 model in Tzeentchs Favor, really every 5 models gets you an extra warp charge? That means at 20 models strong, that level 1 Aspiring Sorcerer will be generating 5 tokens a turn. And god forbid anyone sticks Ahirman with the unit. He'll be popping off 9 tokens a turn.

As for the multi-sorcerer point... that's a bit harder to answer. Yes I did write it in such a way to allow you to take multiple sorcerers in the unit. Fluff wise I don't have a problem with this. If someone wants to sink the 120 extra points to plop 3 Sorcerers in the unit I see no real reason to tell them they can not do that. That being said it is a point that's been sitting on my mind and I can't really decide yah or nay about it yet. I want to see a better pro/con break down of it before I change that rule.

Blackskull wrote:
blazing charge didn't see much use as if you read the reports the only berserker charge involved chain glaives, oddly people seemed to want to charge the zerkers which actually makes a lot of sense as on the charge these guys are unstoppable.

You kind of glazed over almost all of the details in your info so I wasn't sure if Blazing Charge just never came into effect, or if it did and you didn't note it. Thus I asked. And yes, catching Zerks flat footed is the idea. You don't want those monsters charging you.

Blackskull wrote:the out of hand part was the missing "e" on the card that had everyone behaving like 4 year olds and saying the name wrong on purpose because that's how it was spelt on the card

chain glaives though I have mixed opinions on as 2 profiles have been proposed

S +1 Ap3 two handed :
which I think is ok, providing taking one removes the pistol, you then trade in for 3 S6 ap3 attacks on charge compared to the 4 S5 ap- attacks and 2 S4 ap5 shots from the pistol (factoring in blazing charge)

or S +2 ap4 two handed unwieldy*
essentially a 2 handed power maul with variable unwieldy, power mauls are 5pts more on the wargear list but Im not sure that a 5 pt reduction is worth the unwieldy/ two-handed debuff especially on a model that has only 1 attack base. this should be cheaper, around 6-7 pts

I'll look at other codecies for comparable pricing thoughts on that.


As an aside I've compiled a list of units and will be updating them with the current version each weeks. if it lists "(codex)" next to the entry it means we have made no changes to the unit what so ever at this time and that it is still as it appears in Codex: Chaos Space Marines.

HQ
Abaddon the Despoiler (Codex)
Huron Black Heart (Codex)
Kharn the Betrayer (Codex)
Ahriman (Codex)
Typhus (Codex)
Lucius the Eternal (Codex)
Fabius Bile (Codex)
Chaos Lord (Codex)
Sorcerer (Codex)
Daemon Prince (Codex)
Warp Smith (Codex)
Dark Apostle (Codex)
Troops (Codex)
Chaos Space Marines (Codex)
Chaos Cultists(Codex)
Elites
Chosen (Codex)
Possessed (Codex)
Chaos Terminators (Codex)
Helbrute (Codex)
Mutilator (Codex)
Khorne Berzerkers V.3
Thousand Sons V.3
Plague Marines (Codex)
Noise Marines (Codex)
Dedicated Transport
Chaos Rhino V.1
Chaos Drop Pod V.1
Fast attack
Chaos Bikers (codex)
Chaos Spawn (codex)
Raptors (codex)
Warp Talons (codex)
Heldrake (codex)
Heavy Support
Havocs (codex)
Obliterator (codex)
Defiler (codex)
Forgefiend (codex)
Maulerfiend (codex)
Chaos Land Raider (codex)
Chaos Vindicator (codex)
Chaos Predator (codex)

Psychic Discipline Tables
Tzeentch Powers V.1
Nurgle Powers (Codex)
Slaanesh Powers (Codex)



Also, do we want to use the modifications I made in the Codex originally as the basis for the new codex or do we want to use the standard Codex as the basis for this?

yes the sorcerer will have 5 tokens and will only be able to use a maximum of 4, seeing as he has one tzeentch power.

even with a lvl3 sorcerer with 7 tokens can only cast one tzeentch power most of the time as more than half of them are witchfires

Arhiman is the only one who can seriously abuse this and frankly he should be allowed, the guy costs as much as a land raider and compered to every other character at that cost none of them are T4 without eternal warrior, Ahriman is on squishy guy and should have decent rules to back him up, yet he doesn't.

with psykers its mastery lvl that counts and that dictates how many powers you can cast, they can have all the warp charge they like but they are never going to use it all in one turn.

multiple psykers in the same unit causes problems, for then you remove the limiters in place on the tzeentch table. we have already had an incident were using an aspiring sorcerer and regular sorcerer a thousand sons unit was able to teleport into rapid fire range, kill a unit and then teleport back behind a building, aspiring used the first teleport than the sorcerer made the second. we are working on a nerf for this as that wasn't fair or fun to watch.

solutions so far
make range D6 per charge (hugely disliked)
A unit can only be teleported once each turn (the one we went with)


Automatically Appended Next Post:
a friend of mine came up with another idea, the unit rolls a scatter for direction and on a direct hit you choose the direction, you can expend an additional warp charge to re roll the scatter

 Blackskull wrote:
yes the sorcerer will have 5 tokens and will only be able to use a maximum of 4, seeing as he has one tzeentch power.

even with a lvl3 sorcerer with 7 tokens can only cast one tzeentch power most of the time as more than half of them are witchfires

Arhiman is the only one who can seriously abuse this and frankly he should be allowed, the guy costs as much as a land raider and compered to every other character at that cost none of them are T4 without eternal warrior, Ahriman is on squishy guy and should have decent rules to back him up, yet he doesn't.

with psykers its mastery lvl that counts and that dictates how many powers you can cast, they can have all the warp charge they like but they are never going to use it all in one turn.

multiple psykers in the same unit causes problems, for then you remove the limiters in place on the tzeentch table. we have already had an incident were using an aspiring sorcerer and regular sorcerer a thousand sons unit was able to teleport into rapid fire range, kill a unit and then teleport back behind a building, aspiring used the first teleport than the sorcerer made the second. we are working on a nerf for this as that wasn't fair or fun to watch.

solutions so far
make range D6 per charge (hugely disliked)
A unit can only be teleported once each turn (the one we went with)


Automatically Appended Next Post:
a friend of mine came up with another idea, the unit rolls a scatter for direction and on a direct hit you choose the direction, you can expend an additional warp charge to re roll the scatter

okay color me convinced on both points. I think just limiting the number of times a single unit can be teleported in a turn will be the best and simplest way to deal with it.

Agreed, we got another meet up soon, anything in particular you would like to see tested?

 Blackskull wrote:
Agreed, we got another meet up soon, anything in particular you would like to see tested?

another one? good god man. Where do you live? I'm lucky if I get a half dozen games a month.

This is just a meetup with my old friend Danny who will turn the table in my garage into a carpet of hungery bugs (tyrannid) defiantly going gunzerker on this one. Won't have a club day for a while. Don't you have a 40k club near you? I'm off timetable so I go to gw every week. 3 games a week is about average now I have time off

 Blackskull wrote:
This is just a meetup with my old friend Danny who will turn the table in my garage into a carpet of hungery bugs (tyrannid) defiantly going gunzerker on this one. Won't have a club day for a while. Don't you have a 40k club near you? I'm off timetable so I go to gw every week. 3 games a week is about average now I have time off

no, I don't. I have a GW store that is at absolute very best is an hour away. With 1 table. And on the average is an hour and half away. I have another shop that's about an hour away in the opposite direction but the War Machine/Horde and Magic crowds very frequently take over every table in the place. If I'm very very lucky I can get 6 games a month in. And there are days where I'll make the trip down to the other store, just to get cut off when we suddenly get swamped by an influx of Magic players.

Those MTG players breed like nuts, seriously its like they're manufacturing them somewhere. Either way I've got a game coming and bezerkers look fairly stable atm. So anything you think I should test. Also...
http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/592617.page#6777682
Thinking ahead

 Blackskull wrote:
Those MTG players breed like nuts, seriously its like they're manufacturing them somewhere. Either way I've got a game coming and bezerkers look fairly stable atm. So anything you think I should test. Also...
http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/592617.page#6777682
Thinking ahead

Yeah I think the MtG factory is next door.

But yeah, the Explosive package upgrade for the Rhino can be tested, as can be the Chaos Drop Pod. I also had an idea for the Warp Talons. Lemme type it up and toss the card up.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Okay, so totally blanked on something else.

The original army list changes that I compiled in the revamped codex that launched me into this insanity (any wonder I'm doing this with the Chaos Codex now?)


So that coupled with the other changes we've created thus far.

Made a little mod to Abaddon. He's god damned freaking Abaddon for cryin out loud! He's the price of a flipping land raider! he'd better be ranking among the biggest bad asses in the game!!!


Was reading the Horus Heresy Books and stumbled across the stats for the Excoriator Chain Axe which is pretty much exactly what I was trying to go for with the Chain Glave. So changed the glave to that. Oh and I fixed the name on the card.


Made a couple minor tweaks to the Thousand Sons unit.


And then the Warp Talons.

Um I'm still seeing the old cards, complete with bad spelling


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Found the gladiator armory, this is nice stuff

 Blackskull wrote:
Um I'm still seeing the old cards, complete with bad spelling


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Found the gladiator armory, this is nice stuff

Eh blarg didn't update the thumbnail images. No real problem. Just click on the thumbnails and download the cards.

If I might make some Thousand Sons suggestions:

1. Replace 'Slow and Purposeful' with something that is actually useful to them, (I know it 'sounds' like a rule that they should have but because they don't carry any heavy weapons or specialize in CC it just doesn't make any sense on them), perhaps something like:
*Awakened Souls: A Thousand Sons unit that has an Aspiring Sorcerer, or is within 12” of an Independent Character with the Mark of Tzeentch, has the Ignores Cover and Feel No Pain (3+ or 4+, requires testing) special rules. They may also fire Overwatch using their full Ballistic Skill but may never choose to Run in the shooting phase and cannot perform a Sweeping Advance.

2. I don't think they should have the option for a heavy bolter (or Drop Pods) or any other weapons other than a bolter with Inferno Bolts, it just doesn't make sense on them in my opinion.

3. If its ok to say so, I really feel your rules for the Thousand Sons are looking very long and unnecessarily complicated. If you were to remove your new rules for 'Inferno Bolts', 'The Sorcerer Commands', 'Tzeentch's Favor', 'All is Dust', and thier 2nd wound and just added my suggestion above it would make them feel a lot smoother and less cumbersome to play while still making them stronger and keeping their theme/fluff. (I know their 2nd wound is close to many peoples hearts including mine as I played them in 1st /2nd Edition in the early 1990's, but in the current Edition of the game it is just not necessary or as fun to keep track of)

4. I love the idea for the new Tzeentch Psychic Table and the Tzeentchian Gateway but from reading the above story about how it was used in a game you might want to change it so it can only be used by one Psyker per turn and only on units with the Mark of Tzeentch.

5. The Aspiring Sorcerer should keep his 3+ save since they all do have Power Armour after all.

6. With your new Psychic powers this might seem unnecessary or overpowered but for maybe +40 or +50 points per level, perhaps the Aspiring Sorcerers could purchase extra Mastery Levels (up to 3) and if your Warlord is a Sorcerer with the Mark of Tzeentch, for every 2 Aspiring Sorcerers in your Primary Detachment he could purchase an additional Mastery Level (up to a max Mastery Level of 5). I know they can only use a limited number of powers per turn but it would at least give them access to more spells and give them major Deny the Witch rolls. Since the Rubric of Ahriman was supposed to have made them the most powerful sorcerers in the Galaxy.

If you don't mind me asking, what software are you using to make those nice looking Dataslates/Rule-cards?

Thanks for this and all your effort, it is SO needed right now for Chaos!

 AlTzeentch wrote:
If I might make some Thousand Sons suggestions:
1. Replace 'Slow and Purposeful' with something that is actually useful to them, (I know it 'sounds' like a rule that they should have but because they don't carry any heavy weapons or specialize in CC it just doesn't make any sense on them), perhaps something like:
*Awakened Souls: A Thousand Sons unit that has an Aspiring Sorcerer, or is within 12” of an Independent Character with the Mark of Tzeentch, has the Ignores Cover and Feel No Pain (3+ or 4+, requires testing) special rules. They may also fire Overwatch using their full Ballistic Skill but may never choose to Run in the shooting phase and cannot perform a Sweeping Advance.

I rather like slow and purposful. It's a very fluffy rule for animated suits of armor that aren't all there. You will need to give a pretty good explanation of why a Mark of Tzeentch character would give them ignores Cover and FnP.

 AlTzeentch wrote:

2. I don't think they should have the option for a heavy bolter (or Drop Pods) or any other weapons other than a bolter with Inferno Bolts, it just doesn't make sense on them in my opinion.

Once again, why? I'm not opposed to any change but I want to have explanation for that change. Why do I feel that Thousand Sons should have the Slow and Purposeful rule? Because I feel that it's a very fluffy game mechanic based on the idea of the unit. This is a unit comprised on animated suits of armor that are driven by disembodied souls that don't have a perfect link to the material plane. They are somewhat slow to react and extremely methodical in their approach and application. Slow and Purposeful supports this image very well in my opinion.

 AlTzeentch wrote:

3. If its ok to say so, I really feel your rules for the Thousand Sons are looking very long and unnecessarily complicated. If you were to remove your new rules for 'Inferno Bolts', 'The Sorcerer Commands', 'Tzeentch's Favor', 'All is Dust', and thier 2nd wound and just added my suggestion above it would make them feel a lot smoother and less cumbersome to play while still making them stronger and keeping their theme/fluff. (I know their 2nd wound is close to many peoples hearts including mine as I played them in 1st /2nd Edition in the early 1990's, but in the current Edition of the game it is just not necessary or as fun to keep track of)

Once again, explanation please. Thousands are suits of armor piloted by disembodied souls. Knocking a hole in them isn't going to stop them. You have to inflict notable damage to them. Punch a hole that's most of their torso so the armor collapses in on itself, knock the legs out so they topple over, or (taking a cue from the flood in Halo) blow both arms off and watch them follow you around like a puppy. As it stands Thousand Sons are extremely limited solders. If they loose their inferno bolts then what do they have? regular bolters with nothing else.... yeah. That price tag had better drop to about 8 points per thousand son then otherwise they are going back on the shelf and they are staying there.

 AlTzeentch wrote:

4. I love the idea for the new Tzeentch Psychic Table and the Tzeentchian Gateway but from reading the above story about how it was used in a game you might want to change it so it can only be used by one Psyker per turn and only on units with the Mark of Tzeentch.

We already put in limitation on the powers themselves. And frankly limiting it to the "one pysker may use this table a turn" is taking a sledge hammer to a thumb tack. Might as well just say "You may cast 1 psychic power per turn. Period. Doesn't matter how many warp tokens you have, doesn't matter how many psykers you have in your army. You may cast 1 psychic power a turn. Better make it a good one."

 AlTzeentch wrote:

5. The Aspiring Sorcerer should keep his 3+ save since they all do have Power Armour after all.

And... why would he loose it?

 AlTzeentch wrote:

6. With your new Psychic powers this might seem unnecessary or overpowered but for maybe +40 or +50 points per level, perhaps the Aspiring Sorcerers could purchase extra Mastery Levels (up to 3) and if your Warlord is a Sorcerer with the Mark of Tzeentch, for every 2 Aspiring Sorcerers in your Primary Detachment he could purchase an additional Mastery Level (up to a max Mastery Level of 5). I know they can only use a limited number of powers per turn but it would at least give them access to more spells and give them major Deny the Witch rolls. Since the Rubric of Ahriman was supposed to have made them the most powerful sorcerers in the Galaxy.

um I'm afraid you've mis-read the information. I have never once seen the Rubric described as making anyone the most power sorcerer(s) in the galaxy. It enhanced their Sorcerer's abilities, yes. But it wasn't "Oh he cast the Rubric. Oh! We're all the most powerful sorcerers in the galaxy now Yah!"

Mastery Levels max at 4. Period. Also more mastery levels =/= equal better deny the witch rolls. I've got a Level 1 Imperial Guard Psycher casting a power against a level 2 Tzeentch sorcerer. That sorcerer denies the witch on a 4+ because he is a higher level. That same Guard Psycher casts a power at a level 4 Tzeentch Sorcerer. That Sorcer denies the witch on a 4+ because he's a higher level. Giving additional Mastery levels doesn't change your abilities to deny the witch, only the number of enemy psykers you get the +1 to your deny the witch roll because you're a higher level then they are. I don't know where this belief of the 2+ deny the witch roll came from but I'd really love for someone to show me how they are getting it. Barring Special characters like Kharn, I have yet to find a way to get better then a 4+ Deny the witch roll.

 AlTzeentch wrote:

If you don't mind me asking, what software are you using to make those nice looking Dataslates/Rule-cards?

Thanks for this and all your effort, it is SO needed right now for Chaos!

Photoshop


Automatically Appended Next Post:
was working on sorting my bits and I had a thought: Marks for vehicles. I don't mean just apply the marks as they stand now to vehicles, partially because I'm not crazy about the marks as they stand. But here's my thinking (and this is totally off the top of my head).

Mark of Tzeentch (Vehicle): Enscrolled by magic wards and ancient runes the vehicle occupies a point in time and reality that fluxes and changes. All to damage rolls that result in a penetrating hit must be re-rolled.
Mark of Nurgle (Vehicle): The vehicle is housing a noxious hive of virulent insects that collect corpses and meat from the battlefield. The Toxic miasma extruded from these insets serves the plague gods desires. The vehicle has the stealth special rule
Mark of Khorne (Vehicle): .... um I got nothing just now. Thoughts?
Mark of Slaanesh (Vehicle): .... um I got nothing just now. Thoughts?

Maverike_prime wrote:

 AlTzeentch wrote:
If I might make some Thousand Sons suggestions:
1. Replace 'Slow and Purposeful' with something that is actually useful to them, (I know it 'sounds' like a rule that they should have but because they don't carry any heavy weapons or specialize in CC it just doesn't make any sense on them), perhaps something like:
*Awakened Souls: A Thousand Sons unit that has an Aspiring Sorcerer, or is within 12” of an Independent Character with the Mark of Tzeentch, has the Ignores Cover and Feel No Pain (3+ or 4+, requires testing) special rules. They may also fire Overwatch using their full Ballistic Skill but may never choose to Run in the shooting phase and cannot perform a Sweeping Advance.

I rather like slow and purposful. It's a very fluffy rule for animated suits of armor that aren't all there. You will need to give a pretty good explanation of why a Mark of Tzeentch character would give them ignores Cover and FnP.

Well for FnP since they literally "Feel no Pain" when you blow holes in their armor it would make sense to me that they would have a better than default roll for this rule. (meaning you have to blow them apart no matter how “armor piercing” your particular weapon happens to be, you still have to destroy enough of their armor with one shot to stop them, or try again “next turn”)
They also are known to basically be dormant suits of armor until a TS Sorcerer "awakens" them for one purpose or another. (plus it is using an existing rule making it easier to implement/test)
As a result, their Aspiring Sorcerer or Warlord Sorcerer would be able to enhance their abilities (in a similar way to your "The Sorcerer Commands" rule) but in this instance it is using a pre-existing rule to represent the Daemonic foresight of Magnus's Sorcerers to know exactly how to circumvent any cover the enemy is trying to hide behind, and guide the attacks of the Thousand Sons shooting.

Maverike_prime wrote:

 AlTzeentch wrote:

2. I don't think they should have the option for a heavy bolter (or Drop Pods) or any other weapons other than a bolter with Inferno Bolts, it just doesn't make sense on them in my opinion.

Once again, why? I'm not opposed to any change but I want to have explanation for that change. Why do I feel that Thousand Sons should have the Slow and Purposeful rule? Because I feel that it's a very fluffy game mechanic based on the idea of the unit. This is a unit comprised on animated suits of armor that are driven by disembodied souls that don't have a perfect link to the material plane. They are somewhat slow to react and extremely methodical in their approach and application. Slow and Purposeful supports this image very well in my opinion.

I have never read anywhere that after the Rubric of Ahriman was cast that they made use of Drop-Pods or any Heavy Weapons (if this was Pre-Heresy that would be a different story, and if I am wrong please show me an example where they used Drop Pods or Heavy Weapons after they turned into Dust and I will totally change my mind). I am under the impression that they generally appear out-of-nowhere in support of another Chaos force or on their own in search of Knowledge and Artifacts or taking revenge on the Space Wolves. Which means Bolters (with Inferno Bolts) and Sorcerers only, to me anyways. Which is another reason to enhance the Sorcerers abilities even MORE to represent this deficiency in their ability to deal with Flyers/Tanks/Hordes etc.

As for Slow and Purposeful, as I said, it does 'SOUND' like the perfect fluffy rule for the Thousand Sons, but the actual rules for it do not make any sense when applied to them because they don't have any heavy weapons nor are they supposed to be constantly rushing into Close Combat (which being able to Rapid-Fire and then Charge seems to encourage currently). I remember when they were not even allowed to Charge at all!!

Maverike_prime wrote:

 AlTzeentch wrote:

3. If its ok to say so, I really feel your rules for the Thousand Sons are looking very long and unnecessarily complicated. If you were to remove your new rules for 'Inferno Bolts', 'The Sorcerer Commands', 'Tzeentch's Favor', 'All is Dust', and thier 2nd wound and just added my suggestion above it would make them feel a lot smoother and less cumbersome to play while still making them stronger and keeping their theme/fluff. (I know their 2nd wound is close to many peoples hearts including mine as I played them in 1st /2nd Edition in the early 1990's, but in the current Edition of the game it is just not necessary or as fun to keep track of)

Once again, explanation please. Thousands are suits of armor piloted by disembodied souls. Knocking a hole in them isn't going to stop them. You have to inflict notable damage to them. Punch a hole that's most of their torso so the armor collapses in on itself, knock the legs out so they topple over, or (taking a cue from the flood in Halo) blow both arms off and watch them follow you around like a puppy. As it stands Thousand Sons are extremely limited solders. If they loose their inferno bolts then what do they have? regular bolters with nothing else.... yeah. That price tag had better drop to about 8 points per thousand son then otherwise they are going back on the shelf and they are staying there.

The rules that I suggested don't change the idea that they are extremely hard to stop suits of animated armour. Although it requires testing, I would wager that a 4++ (or 3+ Armor) followed by a 4+ or 3+ FnP would make them even harder to kill (or equally hard) than having 2 wounds. But without keeping track of that many individual wounds or creating a new Special Rule.
I may have been unclear in my wording, but I was NOT suggesting that they lose their inferno-bolts, just that the rule for it did not need to be changed.
I also think that for new rules to become widely used and accepted by more than a small niche number of players, they need to be easy to implement and understand (which most of yours are!!) Therefore I think that existing rules should be used as much as possible, rather than trying to create 4-5 brand-new Special Rules just for 1 Troops/Elite choice (which is how they are seen by those who don't play chaos or are not Thousand Sons fanatics like me/us).

Maverike_prime wrote:

 AlTzeentch wrote:

4. I love the idea for the new Tzeentch Psychic Table and the Tzeentchian Gateway but from reading the above story about how it was used in a game you might want to change it so it can only be used by one Psyker per turn and only on units with the Mark of Tzeentch.

We already put in limitation on the powers themselves. And frankly limiting it to the "one pysker may use this table a turn" is taking a sledge hammer to a thumb tack. Might as well just say "You may cast 1 psychic power per turn. Period. Doesn't matter how many warp tokens you have, doesn't matter how many psykers you have in your army. You may cast 1 psychic power a turn. Better make it a good one."

Sorry I was only meaning to limit that one specific power from being cast in the way that it was in that game example above, not the whole table.

Maverike_prime wrote:

 AlTzeentch wrote:

5. The Aspiring Sorcerer should keep his 3+ save since they all do have Power Armour after all.

And... why would he loose it?

My bad, I mis-read one of your earlier posts about changing their 3++ to 4++ and I only saw 3+ to 4+ with my bad eyes.

Maverike_prime wrote:

 AlTzeentch wrote:

6. With your new Psychic powers this might seem unnecessary or overpowered but for maybe +40 or +50 points per level, perhaps the Aspiring Sorcerers could purchase extra Mastery Levels (up to 3) and if your Warlord is a Sorcerer with the Mark of Tzeentch, for every 2 Aspiring Sorcerers in your Primary Detachment he could purchase an additional Mastery Level (up to a max Mastery Level of 5). I know they can only use a limited number of powers per turn but it would at least give them access to more spells and give them major Deny the Witch rolls. Since the Rubric of Ahriman was supposed to have made them the most powerful sorcerers in the Galaxy.

um I'm afraid you've mis-read the information. I have never once seen the Rubric described as making anyone the most powerful sorcerer(s) in the galaxy. It enhanced their Sorcerer's abilities, yes. But it wasn't "Oh he cast the Rubric. Oh! We're all the most powerful sorcerers in the galaxy now Yah!"

Mastery Levels max at 4. Period. Also more mastery levels =/= equal better deny the witch rolls. I've got a Level 1 Imperial Guard Psycher casting a power against a level 2 Tzeentch sorcerer. That sorcerer denies the witch on a 4+ because he is a higher level. That same Guard Psycher casts a power at a level 4 Tzeentch Sorcerer. That Sorcer denies the witch on a 4+ because he's a higher level. Giving additional Mastery levels doesn't change your abilities to deny the witch, only the number of enemy psykers you get the +1 to your deny the witch roll because you're a higher level then they are. I don't know where this belief of the 2+ deny the witch roll came from but I'd really love for someone to show me how they are getting it. Barring Special characters like Kharn, I have yet to find a way to get better then a 4+ Deny the witch roll.

Ya I may have gone overboard on that one (which is why I said it could be unnecessary/overpowered), but I just feel like those little lvl1 Aspiring Sorcerers and 60pt HQ Sorcerers should be given some love in the form of more Psychic Powers (even if its just 1 or 2 extra Mastery LvLs that they have to pay extra points for, it would help with their in-ability to deal with Flyers/Tanks/Hordes/Deathstars as above) but that may be addressed just fine in your new Psychic Table which I am totally fine with and think is awesome!

Maverike_prime wrote:

 AlTzeentch wrote:

If you don't mind me asking, what software are you using to make those nice looking Dataslates/Rule-cards?

Thanks for this and all your effort, it is SO needed right now for Chaos!

Photoshop

Thanks again!

My requests-
Make it so Daemon Princes unlock their respective God's warriors as Troop choices- e.g., Khorne Princes unlock "Zerkers, Tzeentch Princes get 1k Sons, et cetera.
This would make it so you could have a wider variety of fluffy, themed armies.
And give them Ld10 while you're at it, please.

 YFNPsycho wrote:
My requests-
Make it so Daemon Princes unlock their respective God's warriors as Troop choices- e.g., Khorne Princes unlock "Zerkers, Tzeentch Princes get 1k Sons, et cetera.
This would make it so you could have a wider variety of fluffy, themed armies.
And give them Ld10 while you're at it, please.

I was already asked about the Daemon princes unlocking the troops thing when I did the original army list mods I posted. I'm just going to C+P my response to it:

I can understand your point, but I have to say I disagree with the suggestion. In a Chaos Space Marine army it does makes sense that a Daemon Prince doesn't change the army. If you look at the fluff there are three ways a daemon prince is depicted.

1- As a character that is about to ascend to Daemon hood. So he's not actually a Daemon prince yet. He's still a Chaos Lord and mortal.

2- A Daemon Prince that has already ascended and has mostly left his old army behind. Sure he fights besides them, and he functions as a major vessal of destruction in support of them. But he's really not in command of anything.

3- and idol, or deity of worship. In this capacity he's much more of an item then a character. A rendition of a diety to use to cow others into submission. Again, the Daemon prince isn't actually commanding anything.

The rational behind unlocking Possessed as Troops in this rendition is that as daemonic entities the Possessed are drawn to beacons of power such as a Daemon Prince, so the army or force that the Daemon Prince is fighting along side can have more possessed then other armies.

As an addendum to that, I'm very seriously looking at the options of moving the Daemon prince out of the HQ section entirely. Probably move it to the Heavy Support. Possibly Elites. Not sure at this time.

As for the LD 10, it's something to look at.


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Okay, so I got a thought and I wanted to commit it to paper... well digital media. Now here is the red flag....

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This is where we're going to start really getting into the problems from what people want from this codex. There's no easy way to get around it so I'm just gonna use my trade mark approach and bull-doze my way through it all.

Here is my view on what Codex: Chaos Space Marines should be: These are the renegades. The majority of these dude aren't from the heresy. They're not 10,000 years old. They're NOT from the legions. I feel the need to repeat that: these guys are NOT the legion marines. Most of the armies I expect this book to build would be comprised of marines that have turned traitor following the heresy and after the disbandment of the legions. So will there be no representation of the legions outside of the cult troops? No, there will be some examples of the Legions available, but building an Iron Warriors Grand Company, a Night Lord Raiding company or an Alpha Legion insurgency cell... no. I do not feel that those should be the optimal focus of this particular army list.

Now, with that being said I threw some ideas on paper for purchasable traits.


Now, I said these are purchasable traits. So who can purchase them?
Chaos Chosen, and Chaos Legionary squads.




And since I can't really work on the Legionary Squad with out differentiating them from the Chaos Space Marine squad, I worked on them as well:


I've also done some work on the Havocs.




Automatically Appended Next Post:
I was chatting with some folks and I got a wild hair about Bikers. Not totally sold on the ideas presented here as they are presented but they are down on paper and give everyone a place to at least start looking at them.

Okay, so I managed to get a couple test games in tonight using the Thousand Sons rules and revamped Tzeentch power table. I never did roll the Tzeentchian gate so I can't comment on that much (Though I want to get a few games in under my belt with that power to really test it out and develop a working opinion of it). I did get the Warp Time power though and I've developed a concern about that. Well that coupled with the "The Sorcerer Commands" rule. In a unit with 10 Thousand Sons and an Aspiring Sorcerer, assuming the Sorcerer passes his psychic test he can buff the Thousand sons, TWICE! Once with re-rolling failed wounds -OR- failed to hits, =AND= by giving the Thousand Sons BS5. Having gotten a couple games in like this I feel that there needs be some sort of limiter put in place so that the Aspiring Sorcerer that is attached to the unit can EITHER use warp time, OR enhance the Thousand Sons unit. if you want to spend the points to have an HQ lord use Warp Time to buff the unit of Thousand Sons in addition to the Aspiring Sorcerer giving them BS5, that I think is fair.



Thoughts on that?

euwch....most warp time users only got the power with their HQ sorcerer, you have a point when an aspiring sorcerer gets his greedy fingers on it.

I propose to use the sorcerer commands the aspiring sorcerer, expends a warp charge point, that prevents him from maxing warptime, and when he starts to loose men (and his source of power) he will be forced to choose between buffs

 Blackskull wrote:
euwch....most warp time users only got the power with their HQ sorcerer, you have a point when an aspiring sorcerer gets his greedy fingers on it.

I propose to use the sorcerer commands the aspiring sorcerer, expends a warp charge point, that prevents him from maxing warptime, and when he starts to loose men (and his source of power) he will be forced to choose between buffs

yeah I was trying out the unit last night, rolled on the table, and was intending to just swap for Doom Bolt. Got the Warp Time and was like "Hmm... let me try this." I was thinking adding a line to Sorcerer commands to make it so that he can buff the unit -OR- cast a psychic power in a given turn. not both. Also I was trying it out with a full 20 man unit so that mastery level 1 aspiring sorcerer was generating 5 tokens a turn.

I have been off with a cold (in the middle of spring) so I missed the game with Danny, just came back to see what my players had done with the rules and I found a most glorious little gem.

Horror strike is the most unpopular power (often due to lack of horror models) so they replaced it for.

Mindbender (warp charge 1)
once cast select a power that any psyker on the field has rolled for, resolve the effect of that power as if this model had cast it expending warp charge equal to the warp charge of the power.

situational but laughable, loads of fun against nids (not so tough now that we fire warp lances), and often weird (Tzeentchian sorcerer using hammerhand !?), haven't tried it personally but the players like it a lot, and have made the change permanent.

one player did find your warptime/command bug and they fixed it by changing the command rule to the sorcerer may take no other action other than moving.

 Blackskull wrote:
I have been off with a cold (in the middle of spring) so I missed the game with Danny, just came back to see what my players had done with the rules and I found a most glorious little gem.

Horror strike is the most unpopular power (often due to lack of horror models) so they replaced it for.

Mindbender (warp charge 1)
once cast select a power that any psyker on the field has rolled for, resolve the effect of that power as if this model had cast it expending warp charge equal to the warp charge of the power.

situational but laughable, loads of fun against nids (not so tough now that we fire warp lances), and often weird (Tzeentchian sorcerer using hammerhand !?), haven't tried it personally but the players like it a lot, and have made the change permanent.

*scratches head* what? can you walk me through what you just said please?

 Blackskull wrote:

one player did find your warptime/command bug and they fixed it by changing the command rule to the sorcerer may take no other action other than moving.

I was leaning in that direction myself.

mind bender essentially copies a power that any psyker has
you

cast mind bender expending a warp charge, and performing a psychic test

select a power that you want to use, ie zoanthropes have the warp lance power, so you could pick that if there was a zoanthrope on the table.

as a charge 2 power you would expend a further 2 warpcharges and then warp lance sommin




Automatically Appended Next Post:
as a crude summery pick a psyker on the table and cast one of its powers expending an additional warp charge

 Blackskull wrote:
mind bender essentially copies a power that any psyker has
you

cast mind bender expending a warp charge, and performing a psychic test

select a power that you want to use, ie zoanthropes have the warp lance power, so you could pick that if there was a zoanthrope on the table.

as a charge 2 power you would expend a further 2 warpcharges and then warp lance sommin

Automatically Appended Next Post:
as a crude summery pick a psyker on the table and cast one of its powers expending an additional warp charge

Sounds fun! It seems like there needs to be some more risk for using it though?
Such as, maybe a chance that the opponent gets to use one of your spells in reverse? I only say this because if you look at an item like the 'Scrolls of Magnus' its obvious GW feels that having the chance for many different psychic powers is very powerful and needs drawbacks/risks.
Not that I don't love the idea....just being devils advocate I guess...

mindbender has some downsides though, but also some exploits

flaws
often some codex powers target units from their own codex, making them useless mindbender targets (ie dominion for nids)

only targets psykers on the table, cannot copy powers from psykers that are dead or in reserves (killing zoanthropes is a good idea but will cost you warp lance access which is awful)

exploits
dual casting, one guy got lucky against eldar and got mind bender and iron arm on his sorcerer, he cast iron arm then through mind bender copied HIS OWN POWER and cast iron arm twice for a S10 T10 sorcerer,(who was quickly put down by bladestorms mini rending) lol

belakor, he has the entire telepthay table and thanks to mind bender so do you

mindbender is a good power but has limited use against armies that have no psykers in them, and further more the +1 warp charge on every power you cast with it is a pain and limits it to those who are staying snug in a TS unit leeching power. and you lose that power when the sons start to die

I'm taking a look through these and here some things that I think are errors.

Abbadon: If you roll a one for a Daemon weapon it also reduces your weapon skill to 1 for the remainder of the fight sub-phase. Did you mean to leave that effect in there?

CSM: You spelled Flamer 'Flammer'

Chaos Legionary Squad: You worded the special weapons choices in a way so that if the squad is 10 models than you can have two special weapons and one heavy/special weapon. Was that Intended? You also spelled Flamer wrong again.

Khorne Berzerkers: In Blazing Charge you say any UNIT that takes an Excoriater Chain Axe may not use Blazing Charge and then at the end you say any MODEL with an Excoriator Chain Axe may not take part in the Blazing Charge shooting attack. So which is it?

But great job. I really like seeing the forgeworld option of changing the armour on guys. I think perhaps the Legionary Squad would be better if we costed them at 75 points as well.

I also think that the Khorne Berzerkers should have two attacks. The fluff says that they are Khorne's chosen destroyers and I think that 2 attacks from each of them in very round of combat after charge is very thematic.

I really don't think that Thousand Sons should have 2 wounds. I understand where you're coming from but perhaps instead giving them FNP?

As to the Bikers I think you should raise their extended armour plating upgrade. I also don't understand why you are changing their marks.

 marrowick wrote:
I'm taking a look through these and here some things that I think are errors.
Abbadon: If you roll a one for a Daemon weapon it also reduces your weapon skill to 1 for the remainder of the fight sub-phase. Did you mean to leave that effect in there?

*face palm* bah! No, that was an over sight. Thanks for the catch.

 marrowick wrote:

CSM: You spelled Flamer 'Flammer'

yeah, I did that a lot apparently.

 marrowick wrote:

Chaos Legionary Squad: You worded the special weapons choices in a way so that if the squad is 10 models than you can have two special weapons and one heavy/special weapon. Was that Intended? You also spelled Flamer wrong again.

Yes, it is intended that the legionary squad be able to take 2 special weapons AND one heavy weapon at 10 men. As for the flammer/flamer thing... yeah like I said,

 marrowick wrote:

Khorne Berzerkers: In Blazing Charge you say any UNIT that takes an Excoriater Chain Axe may not use Blazing Charge and then at the end you say any MODEL with an Excoriator Chain Axe may not take part in the Blazing Charge shooting attack. So which is it?

It is supposed to be on a model basis. Thanks for the catch.

 marrowick wrote:

But great job. I really like seeing the forgeworld option of changing the armour on guys. I think perhaps the Legionary Squad would be better if we costed them at 75 points as well.

I also think that the Khorne Berzerkers should have two attacks. The fluff says that they are Khorne's chosen destroyers and I think that 2 attacks from each of them in very round of combat after charge is very thematic.

Something to think about on both counts.

 marrowick wrote:

I really don't think that Thousand Sons should have 2 wounds. I understand where you're coming from but perhaps instead giving them FNP?

Ah the Feel No Pain suggestion again. Before we go any further let me re-iterate what I've already heard on the every cult troop should have Feel No pain point:
Plague Marines: Are bloated and rotten that they would simply ignore any non-kill shot damage.
Khorne berzerkers: They are so blood thirsty and crazed out of their minds that they would just ignore any non-kill shots they suffer.
Noise Marines: They're so coked out of their minds that if it doesn't kill them, they don't know they got hit.
Thousand Sons: They're just animated suits of armor so unless they're destroyed out right, they just keep taking more and more damage with out effect.

 marrowick wrote:

As to the Bikers I think you should raise their extended armour plating upgrade. I also don't understand why you are changing their marks.

Yeah I see what you're saying about the FNP. But I would really try to find some other alternative than giving them 2 wounds.

2 wounds and all is dust works, As they fold to ap shooting of any description (rending hurts). Sticking fnp on everything is a bad idea.

I'm not sure what the 2 wound objection is founded on, I'm all for maybe cutting initative hard as they have Marine lvl reactions despite the armor being sealed which inhibits movement. But aside from that I find them a balanced unit, you get what you paid for and you often pay a lot for these guys

I don't know what you guys think, but one thing I'd like is moving Sigil of Corruption from Special Issue Wargear to Chaos Rewards and Aura of Dark Glory from Chaos Rewards to Special Issue Wargear. And then give Chosen access to Special Issue Wargear. Just an idea.

The Fleshmetal on Chosen is one idea I'm a bit unsure of... but eh, whatever.

I dislike flesh metal chosen that's not artificer armour its your skin becoming living metal hence it being restricted on mutilators obits and warp smiths.

alternative plan, allow the chosen terminator armour then remove the chaos terminator unit, abbadon fields chosen as troops and in essence the terminators and the chosen are one and the same. then we can field terminator troops

chosen should have access to basically the entire chaos wargear list but to accommodate them and because its even more options I propose 4 new sheets of wargear.

Tzeentchain wargear
inferno bolts +5pts

Nurgle wargear
blight grenades +5pts
plague knifes +2pts

Slanneshi wargear
Sonic blaster +2pts
Doom siren +10pts

Khornate wargear
Ravager blades +2pts
Excorator chainaxe +10 pts

thoughts on god specific wargear?

 AlTzeentch wrote:

1. Replace 'Slow and Purposeful' with something that is actually useful to them, (I know it 'sounds' like a rule that they should have but because they don't carry any heavy weapons or specialize in CC it just doesn't make any sense on them), perhaps something like:
*Awakened Souls: A Thousand Sons unit that has an Aspiring Sorcerer, or is within 12” of an Independent Character with the Mark of Tzeentch, has the Ignores Cover and Feel No Pain (3+ or 4+, requires testing) special rules. They may also fire Overwatch using their full Ballistic Skill but may never choose to Run in the shooting phase and cannot perform a Sweeping Advance.

TS don't specialize in CC so lets make them far better than most in CC by giving them 2 wounds and feel no pain (3+ or 4+ at that) as well as letting them overwatch at their full BS and ignore cover. Honestly this feels like you are just attempting to turn them into super marines. Noise marines get an initiative boost, ignore cover (at the cost of mobility) and feel no pain, plague marines get a toughness boost, feel no pain, and poison close combat weapons, TS apparently get ignores cover, AP 3, feel no pain (better than plague marines or noise marines), 2 wounds, and can overwatch at their full BS.

If you give TS all this they should cost like 40 points each, they are way tougher than terminators, ignore cover unlike terminators, have AP 3 weapons unlike terminators, and are dangerous to charge because they overwatch at their full ballistic skill. Hell even in close combat they beat Khorne berserkers with equal numbers. Ignoring overwatch 10 berserkers (assuming they charged) 41 Str 5 attacks, 27 hit, 18.2 wound, 6.1 failed armour saves, and 3.037 failed feel no pain saves (assuming we choose a 4+ save) killing one TS and wounding another. Meanwhile the TS attack with 9 regular attacks and 3 force weapon attacks, for 0.75 unsaved wounds from the TS and 0.75 for the sorcerer for a total of 1.5 wounds on the Khorne Berserkers. The Berserkers inflict more wounds but only kill half a model more than the TS. Not to mention that the bersekers will now be bogged down for a long time trying to cut through 2 wound 3+ or 4+ FnP models that are fearless.

Hell if we include overwatch the 9 bolters fire 18 shots for 12 hits and 6 wounds with no armour or cover saves.

Buttons wrote:

 AlTzeentch wrote:

1. Replace 'Slow and Purposeful' with something that is actually useful to them, (I know it 'sounds' like a rule that they should have but because they don't carry any heavy weapons or specialize in CC it just doesn't make any sense on them), perhaps something like:
*Awakened Souls: A Thousand Sons unit that has an Aspiring Sorcerer, or is within 12” of an Independent Character with the Mark of Tzeentch, has the Ignores Cover and Feel No Pain (3+ or 4+, requires testing) special rules. They may also fire Overwatch using their full Ballistic Skill but may never choose to Run in the shooting phase and cannot perform a Sweeping Advance.

TS don't specialize in CC so lets make them far better than most in CC by giving them 2 wounds and feel no pain (3+ or 4+ at that) as well as letting them overwatch at their full BS and ignore cover. Honestly this feels like you are just attempting to turn them into super marines. Noise marines get an initiative boost, ignore cover (at the cost of mobility) and feel no pain, plague marines get a toughness boost, feel no pain, and poison close combat weapons, TS apparently get ignores cover, AP 3, feel no pain (better than plague marines or noise marines), 2 wounds, and can overwatch at their full BS.

If you give TS all this they should cost like 40 points each, they are way tougher than terminators, ignore cover unlike terminators, have AP 3 weapons unlike terminators, and are dangerous to charge because they overwatch at their full ballistic skill. Hell even in close combat they beat Khorne berserkers with equal numbers. Ignoring overwatch 10 berserkers (assuming they charged) 41 Str 5 attacks, 27 hit, 18.2 wound, 6.1 failed armour saves, and 3.037 failed feel no pain saves (assuming we choose a 4+ save) killing one TS and wounding another. Meanwhile the TS attack with 9 regular attacks and 3 force weapon attacks, for 0.75 unsaved wounds from the TS and 0.75 for the sorcerer for a total of 1.5 wounds on the Khorne Berserkers. The Berserkers inflict more wounds but only kill half a model more than the TS. Not to mention that the bersekers will now be bogged down for a long time trying to cut through 2 wound 3+ or 4+ FnP models that are fearless.

Hell if we include overwatch the 9 bolters fire 18 shots for 12 hits and 6 wounds with no armour or cover saves.

Basically what buttons said. Thousand Sons are different Space Marines. Not super-space marines. Okay yes I feel that slow and purposeful is a rule that makes a lot of sense for what are effectively animated suits of armor. You feel differently? Fine. You've stated your reasons and I disagree with them.

Replace 'Slow and Purposeful' with something that is actually useful to them, (I know it 'sounds' like a rule that they should have but because they don't carry any heavy weapons or specialize in CC it just doesn't make any sense on them)

What difference does the lack of a heavy weapon make to slow and purposeful? the point is that Thousand Sons are supposed to be very methodical in their movement and approach to combat situation. In all honesty I'm somewhat inclined to make a rule for the Thousand Sons that makes them Initiative 1 unless the aspiring sorcerer spends a Warp Charge to "awaken" them.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Blackskull wrote:
I dislike flesh metal chosen that's not artificer armour its your skin becoming living metal hence it being restricted on mutilators obits and warp smiths.

I'm not a fan of it either, and when I first wrote the card I said they got Artificer armor and then I noticed Flesh Metal is the same thing, a 2+ save. So... yeah, change the names. Hell we can call it "Frilly Pink Buffulo Armor". The point was they get access to a 2+ save.

 Blackskull wrote:

alternative plan, allow the chosen terminator armour then remove the chaos terminator unit, abbadon fields chosen as troops and in essence the terminators and the chosen are one and the same. then we can field terminator troops

I don't want to get into too many details right now, but I will say you and I are on the same page with this thought.

 Blackskull wrote:

chosen should have access to basically the entire chaos wargear list but to accommodate them and because its even more options I propose 4 new sheets of wargear.

Tzeentchain wargear
inferno bolts +5pts

Nurgle wargear
blight grenades +5pts
plague knifes +2pts

Slanneshi wargear
Sonic blaster +2pts
Doom siren +10pts

Khornate wargear
Ravager blades +2pts
Excorator chainaxe +10 pts

thoughts on god specific wargear?

Again, I'm taking a step back and looking at the project in it's entirety and I'm realizing I'm falling into a lot of problems and pitfalls with how we've been attacking it. So... yeah. I am still working on the project, I'm just going about it a different way. I should be ready to display what I've been working with it in a few days. Just hang on with me for a bit longer and you can see where I'm going.

Hey guys I've just read through the entire chat and I'm really liking where its going. I love chaos but was upset witha few things in the new codex. Such as drop pods and how thousand sons and other are considered non competitive so people don't take them.
One of the major things that bugged me was how expensive the defiler got and with no new upgrades part from daemonforge. So here is an idea for your new codex, reduce defiler 15pts, make it front armour 13 (like the blood slaughterer) and have it dedicated toa god like the soul grinder. Its just an idea

If I can make a suggestion, put a couple of the legion units in there, it royally pi..annoys me that somehow these guys have forgotten there skills and lost there equipment when for some it's only been a week out of the warp.

I suggest 0-1 attached to the legion traits.

Night lords: night raptors or murder squad.

Iron warriors: breacher squad

Etc.

Add marks as you see fit and then vet of the long war (with gw) and your done

MoN on bikers with armor upgrade would be T7, throw in jink, it feels a bit much.

Of course this adds complexity (chaos is about complexity), but maybe MoN gives them a different effect, like a low end "everything takes a S-X hit who is in base contact due to the noxious smell emitted by these methane powered bikes"

Or take jink away. How can you miss the smell?

Vulgar wrote:
MoN on bikers with armor upgrade would be T7, throw in jink, it feels a bit much.

Of course this adds complexity (chaos is about complexity), but maybe MoN gives them a different effect, like a low end "everything takes a S-X hit who is in base contact due to the noxious smell emitted by these methane powered bikes"

Or take jink away. How can you miss the smell?

... I am getting so tired of this response. please go back and look at the unit card I posted for bikers. where do you see mark of nurgle?

actually I'll just link it right here.


yeah, there is no option to take mark of nurgle on there.


oh wait, you must mean the option to take dedication to Nurgle.

yeah, how about you read what effect taking Dedication to Nurgle grants. here's the part of the card that gives that information:

Maverike_prime wrote:


Chaos Lord:

I gotta ask this because it has bugged me for a while. Why is a Chaos Lord weaker than a Space Marine chapter master? I mean they are pretty much a Chaos Chapter master except some of them have thousands, as much as ten thousand years of experience in warfare. I feel like they should at least get 4 wounds and 4 attacks by default. I mean Kharn and Lucius are expert duellists that were slaying xenos and loyalists for thousands of years before men like Dante and Calgar were born yet they only have three wounds. If you would prefer a weaker cheaper HQ choice you could always make a Chaos Lieutenant to represent lesser leaders outranking squad champions but still below an independent chaos lord.

Buttons wrote:

Maverike_prime wrote:


Chaos Lord:

I gotta ask this because it has bugged me for a while. Why is a Chaos Lord weaker than a Space Marine chapter master? I mean they are pretty much a Chaos Chapter master except some of them have thousands, as much as ten thousand years of experience in warfare. I feel like they should at least get 4 wounds and 4 attacks by default. I mean Kharn and Lucius are expert duellists that were slaying xenos and loyalists for thousands of years before men like Dante and Calgar were born yet they only have three wounds. If you would prefer a weaker cheaper HQ choice you could always make a Chaos Lieutenant to represent lesser leaders outranking squad champions but still below an independent chaos lord.

Well to be fair the Chapter is 2x the cost of the Chaos Lord.

That being said, you do have a valid point. But once again I'm working on basically a reboot of the project and I should be ready to show what I've done in a few days so I'm not going to get too deep into revamping any particular unit right now. However, keeps the ideas, thoughts and suggestions coming. I am reading them.

I stand corrected, my apologies.

Hey guys just a question here. What's the situation with special and heavy weapons? Normally its a special and heavy for a 20man squad or two specials. But saw that it changed, and is different for legionaries.
If you guys could just list the changes for the squads that would be helpful, even for 5, 10 and 20 man squads.

I don't like the dedication table for bikes, vehicles could do with one but out of bike and marine its the marine that does the killing and marines get marks. The bike being more dangerous than the rider is just wrong

 Blackskull wrote:
I don't like the dedication table for bikes, vehicles could do with one but out of bike and marine its the marine that does the killing and marines get marks. The bike being more dangerous than the rider is just wrong

At least you're acknowledging you read the bloody thing. Of the 4 forums I've posted the information, plus the half dozen people I've talked to about the bikers that aren't on the forums I've gotten responses about bikes being toughness 7 thanks to mark of nurgle..... 7 times now.

But yeah beyond that, like I've said I am basically rebooting the entire project with a new direction and new breakdown that I should be able to post in the next couple of days. I don't want to get into too many details before that, so yeah. Keep the feed back rolling on whats already been posted along with suggestions and ideas.

ok to cycle back on your other stuff

12pt chaos marine
no that's what people pay for sisters of battle who are infinitely inferior to a marine. we get +1 toughness, initiative, WS, Strength and LD over the sisters who have a 6++ and some faith system I don't understand. the should remain at 13pts and cc weapons bought down to 1 pt per model, that war the marines get ATSKNF and chapter tactics and we get a cc weapon making use useable in an assult

 Blackskull wrote:
that war the marines get ATSKNF and chapter tactics and we get a cc weapon making use useable in an assult

? can you walk me through that part?

 Blackskull wrote:
ok to cycle back on your other stuff

12pt chaos marine
no that's what people pay for sisters of battle who are infinitely inferior to a marine. we get +1 toughness, initiative, WS, Strength and LD over the sisters who have a 6++ and some faith system I don't understand. the should remain at 13pts and cc weapons bought down to 1 pt per model, that war the marines get ATSKNF and chapter tactics and we get a cc weapon making use useable in an assult

This. Although 1 point for 1 extra attack is too cheap. 2 points for the extra cc weapon is fine. basic CSM do need some boost for their 13 points though.
My solution is to give them a mandatory Mark for free(Mark of Nurgle costs 1 point) like how Daemon princes have to take a Daemon of insert Chaos God upgrade, and give them stubborn. That would make them more in line with what a slightly inferior Loyalist Marine should be. Chaos Bikers cost 2 more points than they do now and inherit the above rules.

I also came up with a Mark of Chaos Undivided. Mark of Chaos Undivided : Models with the Mark of Chaos Undivided have the Preferred Enemy and Adamantium Will Special Rule.
Chaos Lords with the Mark of Chaos Undivided can take Chosen as troops.

No no and no, chaos should not be inferior to normal marines, they should be superior in both ws and bs and ld, like I said before just give the legion units back in some form even if it's 0-1, chaos should be THE army that makes you go "I'm in for a tough time here" when they are put on the tabletop, arguably the biggest threat in 40k is worse in every way to the joke that is the tau empire, this has got to change.

I want things like a str 6 ap4 single shot from chaos spawn that cause an I test to infantry only and if failed... You are absorbed into the spawn and it gains a wound.

I want deamon engines that are monstrous creatures (except the defiler)

Op I know the chaos Lord is half the cost of a chapter master but double that cost and make him ws7 and chapter master stats, chaos Lords ARE chapter masters in all bit name and don't let gw crap writers stop us doing this book right!!

I want the bloody legions back and most of all I want a dex that isn't a total joke.

 Formosa wrote:
No no and no, chaos should not be inferior to normal marines, they should be superior in both ws and bs and ld, like I said before just give the legion units back in some form even if it's 0-1, chaos should be THE army that makes you go "I'm in for a tough time here" when they are put on the tabletop, arguably the biggest threat in 40k is worse in every way to the joke that is the tau empire, this has got to change.

I want things like a str 6 ap4 single shot from chaos spawn that cause an I test to infantry only and if failed... You are absorbed into the spawn and it gains a wound.

I want deamon engines that are monstrous creatures (except the defiler)

Op I know the chaos Lord is half the cost of a chapter master but double that cost and make him ws7 and chapter master stats, chaos Lords ARE chapter masters in all bit name and don't let gw crap writers stop us doing this book right!!

I want the bloody legions back and most of all I want a dex that isn't a total joke.

okay number one: telling me to do things.... yeah not gonna get a lot of positive feed back from me. Suggestions and ideas, fine. Give those out all day long.

Second, no one's ideas or suggestions are bad or unwelcome. Is that clear? You disagree with an idea or suggestion, fine. That is your opinion. But disagreeing with the idea does not make it wrong any more then it makes your right.

Third, us? I'm sorry I have yet to see any besides BlackSkull and myself post any non-wish listing or "I Want" or "I'm right because I said so" information. Have many games have you play tested any of these suggestions in? How many different armies have you tested the Thousand Sons again? And how much of those tests have you posted information for?

 Formosa wrote:
No no and no, chaos should not be inferior to normal marines, they should be superior in both ws and bs and ld...

I have 16 warhammer books in my bookshelf, all which I read (I probably read a few more lying around elsewhere).

Those books covers many of the recent additions to Horus Heresy, Grey Knights/Imperial Guard/Ultramarine, Souldrinkers omnibus, and a few stand alone books about Cain (Hero of the Imperium) and even one or two books competently dedicated to the Chaos Space Marines.

None of these books even remotely supports your statement that Chaos Space marines would be better at shooting or have higher close combat skills than the loyalist counterpart. What they do support is that experienced Chaos Space marines are stronger (physically) than loyalists because of the warp energies that runs through their bodies. However, a newly created Chaos Space marine is pretty much equal in all aspects to a loyalist Space Marine, it is not until they gain rewards/mutations from the chaos gods they actually become better.

The lore suggest that Chaos Space marines leadership is actually lower than loyalists, for example, from one of my books, during a large scale war between two rivaling chaos lords, one large force of iron warriors switched sides during battle. Leadership has a mixed meaning, for orks and imperial guard you could consider it as fear to fight, but for Chaos Space marines, it would be their lack of loyalty or will to sacrifice themselves for a greater cause (remember that the goal of each individual Chaos Space marine is to raid or/and become a daemon prince, you can do neither of this if you are dead). So when a loyalist Space Marine fights to death because they are indoctrinated to do so, most Chaos Space marines does not receive such indoctrination and are more inclined to retreat because the fight is not going well and the riches they were promised to loot (Chaos Lords often seems to convey warbands that way) is not going to happen if they are dead.

For this reason, I think Chaos Space marines with the same state line are representing new chaos space marines (or chaos space marines that not yet received many mutations) very well. Once they get their marks thou, they become stronger than the loyalists, one could consider that some marks are not good enough making them barely on only on par with loyalists, for example the Khorne and Tzeenth could favor a boost but also a slight increase in points.



Also here are some feedback on the dedications:
Khorne: Does the D3 apply to each model, or does the whole unit roll one D3. The first option (D3 per model) would result in more rolling, but a more predictable result, while the latter (D3 for whole unit) would be more wimpsy but also quicker to play.
Nurgle: Does this hit apply each turn, or only on the turn the get in range?
Slaneesh: toihits (spelling error)

Maverike_prime wrote:

 Formosa wrote:
No no and no, chaos should not be inferior to normal marines, they should be superior in both ws and bs and ld, like I said before just give the legion units back in some form even if it's 0-1, chaos should be THE army that makes you go "I'm in for a tough time here" when they are put on the tabletop, arguably the biggest threat in 40k is worse in every way to the joke that is the tau empire, this has got to change.

I want things like a str 6 ap4 single shot from chaos spawn that cause an I test to infantry only and if failed... You are absorbed into the spawn and it gains a wound.

I want deamon engines that are monstrous creatures (except the defiler)

Op I know the chaos Lord is half the cost of a chapter master but double that cost and make him ws7 and chapter master stats, chaos Lords ARE chapter masters in all bit name and don't let gw crap writers stop us doing this book right!!

I want the bloody legions back and most of all I want a dex that isn't a total joke.

okay number one: telling me to do things.... yeah not gonna get a lot of positive feed back from me. Suggestions and ideas, fine. Give those out all day long.

Second, no one's ideas or suggestions are bad or unwelcome. Is that clear? You disagree with an idea or suggestion, fine. That is your opinion. But disagreeing with the idea does not make it wrong any more then it makes your right.

Third, us? I'm sorry I have yet to see any besides BlackSkull and myself post any non-wish listing or "I Want" or "I'm right because I said so" information. Have many games have you play tested any of these suggestions in? How many different armies have you tested the Thousand Sons again? And how much of those tests have you posted information for?

We'll having totally ignored my first suggestion and not even bothering to reply to it lead me to make a bold statement, and lo and behold it gets a reply.

I can see that you are trying to keep the status quo as much as possible with the units you have made and edited, but gw has failed on almost every scale to capture the feel of chaos in this current book, all I'm seeing is patches and hotfixes to a book that isn't worth wasting your time on.

If you want to start from the ground up then great and I'd be happy to help, but sticking to the mess of the last 2 chaos books is a mistake, it needs to be bigger and bolder (not op), there is so much untapped potential in the chaos dex.

flodihn wrote:

Khorne: Does the D3 apply to each model, or does the whole unit roll one D3. The first option (D3 per model) would result in more rolling, but a more predictable result, while the latter (D3 for whole unit) would be more wimpsy but also quicker to play.
Nurgle: Does this hit apply each turn, or only on the turn the get in range?
Slaneesh: toihits (spelling error)

Khorne: it is on a per model basis. so one model may get 1 hammer of wrath, another might get 3.
Nurgle: every turn that the condition 'Any model, friend or foe, that does not have the mark of nurgle" applies.
Slanesh: Yeah, sadly Photoshop doesn't have spell check. Thanks for the catch.

 Formosa wrote:

Maverike_prime wrote:

 Formosa wrote:
No no and no, chaos should not be inferior to normal marines, they should be superior in both ws and bs and ld, like I said before just give the legion units back in some form even if it's 0-1, chaos should be THE army that makes you go "I'm in for a tough time here" when they are put on the tabletop, arguably the biggest threat in 40k is worse in every way to the joke that is the tau empire, this has got to change.

I want things like a str 6 ap4 single shot from chaos spawn that cause an I test to infantry only and if failed... You are absorbed into the spawn and it gains a wound.

I want deamon engines that are monstrous creatures (except the defiler)

Op I know the chaos Lord is half the cost of a chapter master but double that cost and make him ws7 and chapter master stats, chaos Lords ARE chapter masters in all bit name and don't let gw crap writers stop us doing this book right!!

I want the bloody legions back and most of all I want a dex that isn't a total joke.

okay number one: telling me to do things.... yeah not gonna get a lot of positive feed back from me. Suggestions and ideas, fine. Give those out all day long.

Second, no one's ideas or suggestions are bad or unwelcome. Is that clear? You disagree with an idea or suggestion, fine. That is your opinion. But disagreeing with the idea does not make it wrong any more then it makes your right.

Third, us? I'm sorry I have yet to see any besides BlackSkull and myself post any non-wish listing or "I Want" or "I'm right because I said so" information. Have many games have you play tested any of these suggestions in? How many different armies have you tested the Thousand Sons again? And how much of those tests have you posted information for?

We'll having totally ignored my first suggestion and not even bothering to reply to it lead me to make a bold statement, and lo and behold it gets a reply.

I can see that you are trying to keep the status quo as much as possible with the units you have made and edited, but gw has failed on almost every scale to capture the feel of chaos in this current book, all I'm seeing is patches and hotfixes to a book that isn't worth wasting your time on.

If you want to start from the ground up then great and I'd be happy to help, but sticking to the mess of the last 2 chaos books is a mistake, it needs to be bigger and bolder (not op), there is so much untapped potential in the chaos dex.

okay, lets be clear about something here. Namely reality. I do have a life outside of the internet and working on this project. Just because one day I have the several hours and go through and reply to each persons points, comments, suggestions and ideas individually on each of the four forums I'm doing this on does not constitute any form of agreement or statement that I have that ability every day. Also, not everyone's comment warrent a response.

"If I can make a suggestion, put a couple of the legion units in there, it royally pi..annoys me that somehow these guys have forgotten there skills and lost there equipment when for some it's only been a week out of the warp.

I suggest 0-1 attached to the legion traits.

Night lords: night raptors or murder squad.

Iron warriors: breacher squad

Etc.

Add marks as you see fit and then vet of the long war (with gw) and your done ."

I'm sorry, but that's already pretty far down there as far as helpful suggestions go. Allow me to illustrate why. You entire post consists of 82 words. Now in those 82 words you have actually suggested.... nothing. I will explain why:

1) What legion traits?
-You've said legion traits. Such as.....? Are we talking the smattering of what became universal special rules in the 3.5 codex? Are you refering to the Chapter Tactics in the current Space Marine Codex? Do you the mean the Chapter Trait system from the 4th edition Space Marine Codex? Are you referencing the Rites of War from the Horus Heresy Series? Are you referencing something completely different?
2) what are Night Raptors, murder squads, and breacher squads?
-You have simply given a name with no explanation as to A) what you are referring to and B) what you're idea for that unit is. When you say breacher squad are you talking about the boarding teams of Space Marines from Badab war? the Breacher Siege Squad from Horus Heresy? Something from a completely different source? If referencing one of those units in a source book that's already out there, what book? a Page number to reference would be nice as well. And why those units? What are they bringing to the army list that say 4 Melta gun armed Havocs are not?
3) 0-1 attached to legion traits.
-in short... what are you talking about?
4) Add marks as you see fit and then vet of the long war (with gw) and your done.
-I have almost no idea what you just said there, but from what I sort of kind of think you said yeah.... I think that's the same idea that lead to the current Chaos Space marine codex just Copy and pasting the the marks and icons upgrades through out the book and leaving us with the army list that we currently have.


So from you 82 word post I am left with 279 words worth of questions about what you are talking about.

Now look, I'm sorry to be so abrupt about all of this but I'm not going to take the time and hold your hand while I work to walk you through making your own suggestions on the threads. I'm sorry, but if you don't want to act like mature individuals who are actually going to put effort and mental power into this project then honestly no I don't want your help with it. You want to make a suggestion and want it taken seriously? Then explain it. "Add legion units" is not a suggestion. It's a waste of time and effort.

"Add a trait, I'm thinking making the lord Stubborn, that can be selected by the Lord that unlocked the use breacher squads in the army. I think the Breacher squad as it appears on page 204 of HH:Betrayal is a good place to start but I would limit it to a 10 man max to show that this is a specialized formation not in use by many surviving warbands and there are even fewer Chaos Marines still trained is it's operation. Because of the 10 man limit, I would make it so that the entire unit can have 4 melta-guns as opposed to the 1 in 5 rule from the Horus Heresy book. This way you've got a group of 10 marines with shields coming up with melta guns."

That's a suggestion that I will actually take time to look at and work with.

 J3f wrote:


I also came up with a Mark of Chaos Undivided. Mark of Chaos Undivided : Models with the Mark of Chaos Undivided have the Preferred Enemy and Adamantium Will Special Rule.
Chaos Lords with the Mark of Chaos Undivided can take Chosen as troops.

While I like the idea of undivided getting some love Preferred Enemy is too much. Crusader and Adamantium Will is fine, something else that boosts survivability or mobility is fine, but Preferred Enemy is too much and honestly doesn't make any sense. Why would Black Legion or Word Bearers be better at fighting Tau than World Eaters or Emperor's Children?

Maybe a chaos lord/sorcerer could choose an alignment or legion, if they are aligned with Tnzeetch, Slaanesh, Nurgle, or Khorne they get their respective cult troops, if they are undivided they can take chosen, possessed, or raptors as troops (representing Black Legion, Word Bearers, and Night Lords respectively), only choosing one of the three as troops.

Buttons wrote:

 J3f wrote:


I also came up with a Mark of Chaos Undivided. Mark of Chaos Undivided : Models with the Mark of Chaos Undivided have the Preferred Enemy and Adamantium Will Special Rule.
Chaos Lords with the Mark of Chaos Undivided can take Chosen as troops.

While I like the idea of undivided getting some love Preferred Enemy is too much. Crusader and Adamantium Will is fine, something else that boosts survivability or mobility is fine, but Preferred Enemy is too much and honestly doesn't make any sense. Why would Black Legion or Word Bearers be better at fighting Tau than World Eaters or Emperor's Children?

Maybe a chaos lord/sorcerer could choose an alignment or legion, if they are aligned with Tnzeetch, Slaanesh, Nurgle, or Khorne they get their respective cult troops, if they are undivided they can take chosen, possessed, or raptors as troops (representing Black Legion, Word Bearers, and Night Lords respectively), only choosing one of the three as troops.

If you look what the fluff what chaos undivided really do is to rally all chaos troops under the same banner, normally the chaos gods constantly fight each other, also leading to chaos troops always consider each other rivals, sometimes even leading to full scale wars.

Perhaps the chaos undivided mark on a lord could make units from different gods work better together. That would fit the fluff and lead to some interesting tactics. Imagine 5 khorne berzerkers and 5 plague marines in one squad?

flodihn wrote:

Buttons wrote:

 J3f wrote:


I also came up with a Mark of Chaos Undivided. Mark of Chaos Undivided : Models with the Mark of Chaos Undivided have the Preferred Enemy and Adamantium Will Special Rule.
Chaos Lords with the Mark of Chaos Undivided can take Chosen as troops.

While I like the idea of undivided getting some love Preferred Enemy is too much. Crusader and Adamantium Will is fine, something else that boosts survivability or mobility is fine, but Preferred Enemy is too much and honestly doesn't make any sense. Why would Black Legion or Word Bearers be better at fighting Tau than World Eaters or Emperor's Children?

Maybe a chaos lord/sorcerer could choose an alignment or legion, if they are aligned with Tnzeetch, Slaanesh, Nurgle, or Khorne they get their respective cult troops, if they are undivided they can take chosen, possessed, or raptors as troops (representing Black Legion, Word Bearers, and Night Lords respectively), only choosing one of the three as troops.

If you look what the fluff what chaos undivided really do is to rally all chaos troops under the same banner, normally the chaos gods constantly fight each other, also leading to chaos troops always consider each other rivals, sometimes even leading to full scale wars.

Perhaps the chaos undivided mark on a lord could make units from different gods work better together. That would fit the fluff and lead to some interesting tactics. Imagine 5 khorne berzerkers and 5 plague marines in one squad?

While I think mixing units shouldn't be done, better synergy between units would be nice. Perhaps give unaligned the ability to take up to one of each cult unit as troops. So an unaligned Chaos Lord could take a unit of Khorne berserkers, a unit of noise marines, a unit of 1k sons, and a unit of plague marines (however he cannot have say two units of noise marines both being troops), all of them troops to represent how they can unite the various gods for specific purposes. That way an unaligned force could say bring Noise Marines to sit behind an Aegis Line in order to provide mid range firepower, while Khorne Berserkers could be used as assault troops alongside Plague Marines, with the Bersekers moving beyond the midfield objective while the Plague Marines sit on the midfield objective.

cult troops for unaligned makes no sense as they hire in these guys to kill stuff, they don't trust them in the slightest especially not for the purposes of claiming critical points and resources

however this argument will become invalid in 7th edition (released may 24th) where everything is scoring so its kind of pointless to fuss it

 Blackskull wrote:
cult troops for unaligned makes no sense as they hire in these guys to kill stuff, they don't trust them in the slightest especially not for the purposes of claiming critical points and resources

however this argument will become invalid in 7th edition (released may 24th) where everything is scoring so its kind of pointless to fuss it

Taking them as troops is primarily to facilitate using more varied cult troops as mercenaries and freeing up the elite slot for other non-cult units like terminators, chosen, and possessed to represent a legion or warband that has lots of possessed, terminators, or chosen simply hiring mercenaries to bulk up their force. One could always make the cult troops non-scoring or take away whatever benefit troops are rumored to get over other slots (IIRC it is something like no one can contest objectives they hold except for other troops).

Maverike_prime wrote:

 Formosa wrote:

Maverike_prime wrote:

 Formosa wrote:
No no and no, chaos should not be inferior to normal marines, they should be superior in both ws and bs and ld, like I said before just give the legion units back in some form even if it's 0-1, chaos should be THE army that makes you go "I'm in for a tough time here" when they are put on the tabletop, arguably the biggest threat in 40k is worse in every way to the joke that is the tau empire, this has got to change.

I want things like a str 6 ap4 single shot from chaos spawn that cause an I test to infantry only and if failed... You are absorbed into the spawn and it gains a wound.

I want deamon engines that are monstrous creatures (except the defiler)

Op I know the chaos Lord is half the cost of a chapter master but double that cost and make him ws7 and chapter master stats, chaos Lords ARE chapter masters in all bit name and don't let gw crap writers stop us doing this book right!!

I want the bloody legions back and most of all I want a dex that isn't a total joke.

okay number one: telling me to do things.... yeah not gonna get a lot of positive feed back from me. Suggestions and ideas, fine. Give those out all day long.

Second, no one's ideas or suggestions are bad or unwelcome. Is that clear? You disagree with an idea or suggestion, fine. That is your opinion. But disagreeing with the idea does not make it wrong any more then it makes your right.

Third, us? I'm sorry I have yet to see any besides BlackSkull and myself post any non-wish listing or "I Want" or "I'm right because I said so" information. Have many games have you play tested any of these suggestions in? How many different armies have you tested the Thousand Sons again? And how much of those tests have you posted information for?

We'll having totally ignored my first suggestion and not even bothering to reply to it lead me to make a bold statement, and lo and behold it gets a reply.

I can see that you are trying to keep the status quo as much as possible with the units you have made and edited, but gw has failed on almost every scale to capture the feel of chaos in this current book, all I'm seeing is patches and hotfixes to a book that isn't worth wasting your time on.

If you want to start from the ground up then great and I'd be happy to help, but sticking to the mess of the last 2 chaos books is a mistake, it needs to be bigger and bolder (not op), there is so much untapped potential in the chaos dex.

okay, lets be clear about something here. Namely reality. I do have a life outside of the internet and working on this project. Just because one day I have the several hours and go through and reply to each persons points, comments, suggestions and ideas individually on each of the four forums I'm doing this on does not constitute any form of agreement or statement that I have that ability every day. Also, not everyone's comment warrent a response.

"If I can make a suggestion, put a couple of the legion units in there, it royally pi..annoys me that somehow these guys have forgotten there skills and lost there equipment when for some it's only been a week out of the warp.

I suggest 0-1 attached to the legion traits.

Night lords: night raptors or murder squad.

Iron warriors: breacher squad

Etc.

Add marks as you see fit and then vet of the long war (with gw) and your done ."

I'm sorry, but that's already pretty far down there as far as helpful suggestions go. Allow me to illustrate why. You entire post consists of 82 words. Now in those 82 words you have actually suggested.... nothing. I will explain why:

1) What legion traits?
-You've said legion traits. Such as.....? Are we talking the smattering of what became universal special rules in the 3.5 codex? Are you refering to the Chapter Tactics in the current Space Marine Codex? Do you the mean the Chapter Trait system from the 4th edition Space Marine Codex? Are you referencing the Rites of War from the Horus Heresy Series? Are you referencing something completely different?
2) what are Night Raptors, murder squads, and breacher squads?
-You have simply given a name with no explanation as to A) what you are referring to and B) what you're idea for that unit is. When you say breacher squad are you talking about the boarding teams of Space Marines from Badab war? the Breacher Siege Squad from Horus Heresy? Something from a completely different source? If referencing one of those units in a source book that's already out there, what book? a Page number to reference would be nice as well. And why those units? What are they bringing to the army list that say 4 Melta gun armed Havocs are not?
3) 0-1 attached to legion traits.
-in short... what are you talking about?
4) Add marks as you see fit and then vet of the long war (with gw) and your done.
-I have almost no idea what you just said there, but from what I sort of kind of think you said yeah.... I think that's the same idea that lead to the current Chaos Space marine codex just Copy and pasting the the marks and icons upgrades through out the book and leaving us with the army list that we currently have.


So from you 82 word post I am left with 279 words worth of questions about what you are talking about.

Now look, I'm sorry to be so abrupt about all of this but I'm not going to take the time and hold your hand while I work to walk you through making your own suggestions on the threads. I'm sorry, but if you don't want to act like mature individuals who are actually going to put effort and mental power into this project then honestly no I don't want your help with it. You want to make a suggestion and want it taken seriously? Then explain it. "Add legion units" is not a suggestion. It's a waste of time and effort.

"Add a trait, I'm thinking making the lord Stubborn, that can be selected by the Lord that unlocked the use breacher squads in the army. I think the Breacher squad as it appears on page 204 of HH:Betrayal is a good place to start but I would limit it to a 10 man max to show that this is a specialized formation not in use by many surviving warbands and there are even fewer Chaos Marines still trained is it's operation. Because of the 10 man limit, I would make it so that the entire unit can have 4 melta-guns as opposed to the 1 in 5 rule from the Horus Heresy book. This way you've got a group of 10 marines with shields coming up with melta guns."

That's a suggestion that I will actually take time to look at and work with.

All fair comments, I will happily explain what my intentions are and post up more constructive criticism.

First of by legion traits I am indeed talking about all 3 heresy books so far, they capture the feel of the heresy armies quite well (when combined with additional foc available to certain forces, for example castellan foc for iron warriors) in a few short rules, when I look at the legion army list I see what chaos space marines should be, legion but broken up in some cases (notably word bearers and black legion are still legion strength) they are still legions, so it confuses me why these are not available on the tabletop.

So I'd suggest 0-1 of the following units or just adding them in its up to you.

Troops
Legion tactical squad with all options and wargear remaining the same as hh with the exception of making marines 13pts per model after the unit has been bought, marks can be added but no icons
Legion breachers, iron warriors or successors only, marks added but otherwise the same.

There are just a couple of examples, so they would keep heresy era wargear and option but be able to take marks, rather than icons they can take a legion trait, so for example a normal chaos marine squad would represent renegades with marks and icons, a legion squad would represent death guard legionaries with the mark of nurgle but retain the benefits of the death guard legion (deathsythes, shred flamers, poison missiles etc.) but not be full blown plague marines.

okay, I've been mentioning I was working on something for a while now. It's not finished by any stretch, but I feel it's at a position that it can be talked about.

So what am I talking about? Well I'm basically rebooting the entire project and revamping the project. To help with organization and coordination I've set up a website for the project.

Check it out here:===> Chaos Codex



And Formosa; I am not ignoring your suggestions. Just right now I'm focusing more on the Chaos Renegades book and your suggestions sounds more like they belong in the Chaos Legions book.

Having read your blog I get your aesthetic now, so renegades coolio, I have a few suggestions for that then.

As with chapter tactics it could be possible (as I see you have done) to implement codex space marines units, we already have vindicators but could we add the land raider variants (either full access or 0-1) and land speeders, now I know it won't make a lot of difference on the table top but it would help to show a renegade force that still retains its codex equipment to some extent, some wargear would also be cool even if.just a name change, so rather than the chaos 4+ inv relic lords could take an iron halo, maybe a smattering of grav weapons available to chosen only and of course dreadnoughts without the madness rule rather than hellbrutes.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Khan the betrayer 230pts
Ws8
Bs3
S5
T4
W4
I5
A5
Ld10
Sv2+ 4++ 6+ FNP
Wargear: Gorechild, frag and krak grenades, deamon armour, collar of khorne, plasma pistol, aura of darkness.
Special rules: favoured of khorne: this confers eternal warrior, rage, hatred and furious charge to kharn.
gorechild: str +1 ap2, always hits on 2+ regardless of any modifiers, armourbane, murderous strike (6to would causes id).
Fear, whirlwind of Gore: at initiative step 10 kharn and any unit he has joined pile in, they strike in normal initiative order as normal however kharn must take a ld test, if failed kharn forgoes his normal attacks and instead strikes all models (friend or foe) in base contact, roll to hit and to wound as normal. If the test is passed or the enemy model in base contact with kharn has the vehicle type, kharn acts normally.

This is a suggestion of kharn the betrayer.

 Formosa wrote:
Having read your blog I get your aesthetic now, so renegades coolio, I have a few suggestions for that then.

As with chapter tactics it could be possible (as I see you have done) to implement codex space marines units, we already have vindicators but could we add the land raider variants (either full access or 0-1) and land speeders, now I know it won't make a lot of difference on the table top but it would help to show a renegade force that still retains its codex equipment to some extent, some wargear would also be cool even if.just a name change, so rather than the chaos 4+ inv relic lords could take an iron halo, maybe a smattering of grav weapons available to chosen only and of course dreadnoughts without the madness rule rather than hellbrutes.

I'm already running into a problem with that internal to Chaos Renegedes codex. Look at the Chosen where I gave them the option to take a 2+ save. In the Chaos Codex at present there's only 2 ways to get a 2+ save, terminator armor, or flesh metal armor. Flesh metal is apparently rubbing people the wrong way because.... well, it's Flesh metal, it's not armor so much as it's the armor fusing with the marines body.

No, that's the fluff behind it. What effect does it have in-game? It gives a 2+ save. So now here's the issue. Do I make "Daemon Wrought armor" that gives a 2+ save and list it along side Flesh Metal armor that likewise gives a 2+ save and be accused of being either lazy or stupid because I've made the same thing twice? Do I change Flesh Metal so it does something else? If I do that I have to take a closer look at Oblits and Mutis and see what effect it has on them.

As for HelBrutes = dreadnoughts.... it's kind of the same problem.

here's the stat line for a helbrute;

WS: 4
BS: 4
S:6
FA: 12
SA: 12
RA: 10
I: 4
A: 2
HP: 3
It's 100 points base. Starts with Multi-melta and Power fist

Now here's a dreadnought stat line:
WS: 4
BS: 4
S:6
FA: 12
SA: 12
RA: 10
I: 4
A: 2
HP: 3
It's 100 points base. Starts with Multi-melta and Power fist

Now, here's a third unit I made (Not really, just making for demonstrative purposes) called the Fluffy Rhino Walker. It's stat line is:

WS: 4
BS: 4
S:6
FA: 12
SA: 12
RA: 10
I: 4
A: 2
HP: 3
It's 100 points base. Starts with Multi-melta and Power fist

Okay, what's the difference? The name. Functionally they are exactly identical. Here it illustrates one of my big problems I have with just porting stuff over to another Codex, in this case Space Marines to Chaos Renegades. You begin to loose the uniqueness of the army. I've just laid out 3 different units. What difference will they have in game between one another? Beyond using different models none. The Fluffy Rhino will work exactly like the Dreadnought which will work exactly like the HelBrute.

I remember back when the 3rd edition Eldar Codex there were complaints about the Wave Serpent going up in cost. Gav Thorpe made an response to that in the issue of White Dwarf to accompany that release. I wish I still had the issue in front of me but I can't find it just now so I'll just have to shoot from the hip. He said people had been asking why couldn't the Eldar have a cheap transport option like the marines or Dark Eldar. And he responded by explaining that it's because the Marines and Dark Eldar have a cheap transport. Gone are the days of Harliquins assaulting out a land Raider and other such abominations. Every army does not and should not get everything that every other army gets.

So same mentality here. "Because the space marines have it" is not sufficient justification in my mind to explain porting a unit from the Space Marine Codex to one of these three. I rather like the new fluff explaining the difference between HelBrutes and Dreadnoughts:

"Helbrutes are twisted mockeries of the Space Marine Dreadnoughts they used to be, combining the firepower of a small tank with the mind of a frenzied maniac."

They took the same basic idea, 'cept gave it spikes where it really shouldn't have spikes.... and then make those spikes go into the brain to brain feth the pilot in-side out to the point that the pilot goes bat-gak crazy. That is so fitting of Chaos in my mind that I am honestly loathe to remove the crazed rule from Helbrutes as a matter of course. That being said, I did provide the option to buy away the crazed effect on HelBrute via the purchase of the Hell Forged warrior upgrade.

Now on the topic of Land Raider variants... Land Raiders are effing expensive. Both in terms of price for the kit and the points cost. I'm still particularly miffed at GW releasing the Redeember for.... well basically no reason what so ever. It really didn't bring anything to the table that the Crusader couldn't already do. Yeah heavy flamers are nice... but are they really any different then 3-twin linked Bolters that are double tapping? There was a work log on BolterandChainsword.com, I can't find it just now, but anyway. The point of the log was the guy wanted to build as many variant land raiders as he could manage. He had Manticore Missile equiped Land Raiders, and Twin-linked Frag Cannon sponsors, and Hurrican Plasma Guns, and Twin-linked Plasma Cannons, and quad auto-cannons sponsons.... and the list just goes on. If I can find the blog again I'll link it. Anyway, he's a very talented converter but... to what end? It's not like there are rules for land Raiders that mount a Multi-melta, wth 6 Twin-linked Melta Guns and a HellHammer cannon or for a Land Raider with Twin-linked Frag Cannons with a Twin-linked Plasma Cannon. That's my real issue with bringing additional variants of the Land Raider up. What is their purpose? Why does this variant exist? What does it do that other land raiders can't? Also see my previous comment about porting dreadnoughts.

 Formosa wrote:
Having read your blog I get your aesthetic now, so renegades coolio, I have a few suggestions for that then.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Khan the betrayer 230pts
Ws8
Bs3
S5
T4
W4
I5
A5
Ld10
Sv2+ 4++ 6+ FNP
Wargear: Gorechild, frag and krak grenades, deamon armour, collar of khorne, plasma pistol, aura of darkness.
Special rules: favoured of khorne: this confers eternal warrior, rage, hatred and furious charge to kharn.
gorechild: str +1 ap2, always hits on 2+ regardless of any modifiers, armourbane, murderous strike (6to would causes id).
Fear, whirlwind of Gore: at initiative step 10 kharn and any unit he has joined pile in, they strike in normal initiative order as normal however kharn must take a ld test, if failed kharn forgoes his normal attacks and instead strikes all models (friend or foe) in base contact, roll to hit and to wound as normal. If the test is passed or the enemy model in base contact with kharn has the vehicle type, kharn acts normally.

This is a suggestion of kharn the betrayer.

... okay why?

Okay, so I finished a piece that I thought people would want to see so... yeah here it is. It's not finished, but I think it'll carry my intentions and plans.

Maverike_prime wrote:

 Formosa wrote:
Having read your blog I get your aesthetic now, so renegades coolio, I have a few suggestions for that then.

As with chapter tactics it could be possible (as I see you have done) to implement codex space marines units, we already have vindicators but could we add the land raider variants (either full access or 0-1) and land speeders, now I know it won't make a lot of difference on the table top but it would help to show a renegade force that still retains its codex equipment to some extent, some wargear would also be cool even if.just a name change, so rather than the chaos 4+ inv relic lords could take an iron halo, maybe a smattering of grav weapons available to chosen only and of course dreadnoughts without the madness rule rather than hellbrutes.

I'm already running into a problem with that internal to Chaos Renegedes codex. Look at the Chosen where I gave them the option to take a 2+ save. In the Chaos Codex at present there's only 2 ways to get a 2+ save, terminator armor, or flesh metal armor. Flesh metal is apparently rubbing people the wrong way because.... well, it's Flesh metal, it's not armor so much as it's the armor fusing with the marines body.

No, that's the fluff behind it. What effect does it have in-game? It gives a 2+ save. So now here's the issue. Do I make "Daemon Wrought armor" that gives a 2+ save and list it along side Flesh Metal armor that likewise gives a 2+ save and be accused of being either lazy or stupid because I've made the same thing twice? Do I change Flesh Metal so it does something else? If I do that I have to take a closer look at Oblits and Mutis and see what effect it has on them.

As for HelBrutes = dreadnoughts.... it's kind of the same problem.

here's the stat line for a helbrute;

WS: 4
BS: 4
S:6
FA: 12
SA: 12
RA: 10
I: 4
A: 2
HP: 3
It's 100 points base. Starts with Multi-melta and Power fist

Now here's a dreadnought stat line:
WS: 4
BS: 4
S:6
FA: 12
SA: 12
RA: 10
I: 4
A: 2
HP: 3
It's 100 points base. Starts with Multi-melta and Power fist

Now, here's a third unit I made (Not really, just making for demonstrative purposes) called the Fluffy Rhino Walker. It's stat line is:

WS: 4
BS: 4
S:6
FA: 12
SA: 12
RA: 10
I: 4
A: 2
HP: 3
It's 100 points base. Starts with Multi-melta and Power fist

Okay, what's the difference? The name. Functionally they are exactly identical. Here it illustrates one of my big problems I have with just porting stuff over to another Codex, in this case Space Marines to Chaos Renegades. You begin to loose the uniqueness of the army. I've just laid out 3 different units. What difference will they have in game between one another? Beyond using different models none. The Fluffy Rhino will work exactly like the Dreadnought which will work exactly like the HelBrute.

I remember back when the 3rd edition Eldar Codex there were complaints about the Wave Serpent going up in cost. Gav Thorpe made an response to that in the issue of White Dwarf to accompany that release. I wish I still had the issue in front of me but I can't find it just now so I'll just have to shoot from the hip. He said people had been asking why couldn't the Eldar have a cheap transport option like the marines or Dark Eldar. And he responded by explaining that it's because the Marines and Dark Eldar have a cheap transport. Gone are the days of Harliquins assaulting out a land Raider and other such abominations. Every army does not and should not get everything that every other army gets.

So same mentality here. "Because the space marines have it" is not sufficient justification in my mind to explain porting a unit from the Space Marine Codex to one of these three. I rather like the new fluff explaining the difference between HelBrutes and Dreadnoughts:

"Helbrutes are twisted mockeries of the Space Marine Dreadnoughts they used to be, combining the firepower of a small tank with the mind of a frenzied maniac."

They took the same basic idea, 'cept gave it spikes where it really shouldn't have spikes.... and then make those spikes go into the brain to brain feth the pilot in-side out to the point that the pilot goes bat-gak crazy. That is so fitting of Chaos in my mind that I am honestly loathe to remove the crazed rule from Helbrutes as a matter of course. That being said, I did provide the option to buy away the crazed effect on HelBrute via the purchase of the Hell Forged warrior upgrade.

Now on the topic of Land Raider variants... Land Raiders are effing expensive. Both in terms of price for the kit and the points cost. I'm still particularly miffed at GW releasing the Redeember for.... well basically no reason what so ever. It really didn't bring anything to the table that the Crusader couldn't already do. Yeah heavy flamers are nice... but are they really any different then 3-twin linked Bolters that are double tapping? There was a work log on BolterandChainsword.com, I can't find it just now, but anyway. The point of the log was the guy wanted to build as many variant land raiders as he could manage. He had Manticore Missile equiped Land Raiders, and Twin-linked Frag Cannon sponsors, and Hurrican Plasma Guns, and Twin-linked Plasma Cannons, and quad auto-cannons sponsons.... and the list just goes on. If I can find the blog again I'll link it. Anyway, he's a very talented converter but... to what end? It's not like there are rules for land Raiders that mount a Multi-melta, wth 6 Twin-linked Melta Guns and a HellHammer cannon or for a Land Raider with Twin-linked Frag Cannons with a Twin-linked Plasma Cannon. That's my real issue with bringing additional variants of the Land Raider up. What is their purpose? Why does this variant exist? What does it do that other land raiders can't? Also see my previous comment about porting dreadnoughts.

 Formosa wrote:
Having read your blog I get your aesthetic now, so renegades coolio, I have a few suggestions for that then.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Khan the betrayer 230pts
Ws8
Bs3
S5
T4
W4
I5
A5
Ld10
Sv2+ 4++ 6+ FNP
Wargear: Gorechild, frag and krak grenades, deamon armour, collar of khorne, plasma pistol, aura of darkness.
Special rules: favoured of khorne: this confers eternal warrior, rage, hatred and furious charge to kharn.
gorechild: str +1 ap2, always hits on 2+ regardless of any modifiers, armourbane, murderous strike (6to would causes id).
Fear, whirlwind of Gore: at initiative step 10 kharn and any unit he has joined pile in, they strike in normal initiative order as normal however kharn must take a ld test, if failed kharn forgoes his normal attacks and instead strikes all models (friend or foe) in base contact, roll to hit and to wound as normal. If the test is passed or the enemy model in base contact with kharn has the vehicle type, kharn acts normally.

This is a suggestion of kharn the betrayer.

... okay why?

I get what you mean with the fluffy rhino, while I agree functionally they are the same the space marine fluffy rhino doesn't have the crazed rule but otherwise they are the same, but names are important from an aesthetic point of view, hellbrutes sound far to chaosy for a renegade chapter.

But I do agree that there is no need to drop 2 identical units into the book, so simply add crazed as a free option for "hellbrutes" and make crazed something to consider as opposed to no one wanting the rule at all.

I see you are updating the characters with tweaks and such, so I posted a kharn the betrayer as he should be, bloody deadly in combat and an eternal warrior, I also brought him in line with his heresy version, I upped his attacks to 5 so with the charge and +1 for ccw he has 8 attacks on the charge.. An appropriate number I feel.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I have to disagree a bit with land raiders, I agree with the not adding anything that doesn't bring anything but in regards to a larger transport cap land raider it would help chaos space marines get to combat easier.

I'm suggesting a these units as renegades would not have lost said equipment and the renegades are where you are starting (correct me if I'm wrong), so while yes you would just be adding chaos marks to space marine units that is essentially what some renegades are, hence why I'm suggesting it.

 Formosa wrote:

Maverike_prime wrote:

 Formosa wrote:
Having read your blog I get your aesthetic now, so renegades coolio, I have a few suggestions for that then.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Khan the betrayer 230pts
Ws8
Bs3
S5
T4
W4
I5
A5
Ld10
Sv2+ 4++ 6+ FNP
Wargear: Gorechild, frag and krak grenades, deamon armour, collar of khorne, plasma pistol, aura of darkness.
Special rules: favoured of khorne: this confers eternal warrior, rage, hatred and furious charge to kharn.
gorechild: str +1 ap2, always hits on 2+ regardless of any modifiers, armourbane, murderous strike (6to would causes id).
Fear, whirlwind of Gore: at initiative step 10 kharn and any unit he has joined pile in, they strike in normal initiative order as normal however kharn must take a ld test, if failed kharn forgoes his normal attacks and instead strikes all models (friend or foe) in base contact, roll to hit and to wound as normal. If the test is passed or the enemy model in base contact with kharn has the vehicle type, kharn acts normally.

This is a suggestion of kharn the betrayer.

... okay why?

I get what you mean with the fluffy rhino, while I agree functionally they are the same the space marine fluffy rhino doesn't have the crazed rule but otherwise they are the same, but names are important from an aesthetic point of view, hellbrutes sound far to chaosy for a renegade chapter.

But I do agree that there is no need to drop 2 identical units into the book, so simply add crazed as a free option for "hellbrutes" and make crazed something to consider as opposed to no one wanting the rule at all.

I see you are updating the characters with tweaks and such, so I posted a kharn the betrayer as he should be, bloody deadly in combat and an eternal warrior, I also brought him in line with his heresy version, I upped his attacks to 5 so with the charge and +1 for ccw he has 8 attacks on the charge.. An appropriate number I feel.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I have to disagree a bit with land raiders, I agree with the not adding anything that doesn't bring anything but in regards to a larger transport cap land raider it would help chaos space marines get to combat easier.

I'm suggesting a these units as renegades would not have lost said equipment and the renegades are where you are starting (correct me if I'm wrong), so while yes you would just be adding chaos marks to space marine units that is essentially what some renegades are, hence why I'm suggesting it.

Okay first thing about Kharn, he already a freaking monster in combat as is. I was working with a friend last night and we were math-hammering it out. for 160 points he's one of the characters you can field in the entire bloody game. It's not until you start bringing characters with a 4++ or you bring characters that are 2 and 3 times his point cost that it starts getting more even. Also, some of your suggestions on Kharn... just don't make any sense.
The WS8. He already hits everything on 2s, with a re-roll. why bother with this?
the BS3... why has he gotten worse at shooting?
Sv2+ 4++ 6+ FNP... no. kharn does not need freaking terminator armor with am iron halo saves with a feel no pain on top of that.
favoured of khorne: this confers eternal warrior, rage, hatred and furious charge to kharn..... he already has all of this.
Fear, whirlwind of Gore: at initiative step 10 kharn and any unit he has joined pile in, they strike in normal initiative order as normal however kharn must take a ld test, if failed kharn forgoes his normal attacks and instead strikes all models (friend or foe) in base contact, roll to hit and to wound as normal. If the test is passed or the enemy model in base contact with kharn has the vehicle type, kharn acts normally.
- this.... just.... no. I'm sorry, but dear god no. That mechanic is making me cringe. A LD test... really? Are you honestly trying to go back to the concept that all world eaters are nothing but frothing mad-dog psychos that need to be on a leash so they won't hurt themselves or their allies?
Why is you're 'improved' kharn now vulnerable to psychic attacks? I'll be honest, that right there is why I would take the current version over your version. for 160 points he's one of the best damned character killers in the game and he gives the middle finger to psychic attacks.

As it stands, I see no reason to change Kharn in the slightest from how he's presented in the present Codex.
The only change I made to Abaddon was in regards to how the Daemon works with him. I haven't changed his stat line or his save or his wargear outside of that one modification. I feel that most of the Chaos Characters are pretty solid right now. The only one that I think needs some tweaking is Huron Blackheart.

Ok thanks for the criticism I will address each point as made


Ws8: heresy kharn is ws7, 10k years of near constant warfare I feel would improve this, when mechanically it makes little difference it is more of a fluff change.
The 're-roll only works on the charge (hatred) or when being charged, this means current kharn has very little chance of actually hitting his own models, not very befitting the betrayer.

Bs3: this is to represent not lack of skill but lack of coherent thought, kharn wants to take heads for the blood God, not shoot things to death, bs3 has also in the past been used to represent psychos that are too far gone to aim properly.

Chosen of the blood God: kharn has most of these rules, no eternal warrior, the eternal warrior is added to represent his being in the middle of some of the worst fighting the galaxy has ever seen and even when mortally wounded... Surviving to fight again, kharn and lucius deserve eternal warrior more than lysanander or Calgar.

Whirlwind of Gore: yes I am going with the 100% correct assumption that kharn is a frothing lunatic, but only when in the swirl of combat, note this is kharn, he is not a world eater, he WAS a world eater and as he said himself he cares nothing for the legion anymore, I'm not proposing world eaters are frothing lunatics I'm outright stating that when in combat kharn is.

Vulnerable to psychic powers: he has the collar of khorne still.

2+, 4++, 6+ fnp: 2+ is the to tie into the articifer armour he has that has been corrupted by chaos, 4++ is to bring in line chaos hq invulnerables with loyalist ones, named character need at least 4++ if a combat character. The 6+ fnp is a tie into to pre heresy world eaters that have gone so far down the line of madness they can shrug off wounds.

So all in all I am trying to make kharn one of the best hand to hand fighters in the game as opposed to middle ground that can die to a power fist, chaos characters historically have been combat power houses and since 4th they have been a bit lacking.

 Formosa wrote:
Ok thanks for the criticism I will address each point as made


Ws8: heresy kharn is ws7, 10k years of near constant warfare I feel would improve this, when mechanically it makes little difference it is more of a fluff change.
The 're-roll only works on the charge (hatred) or when being charged, this means current kharn has very little chance of actually hitting his own models, not very befitting the betrayer.

Bs3: this is to represent not lack of skill but lack of coherent thought, kharn wants to take heads for the blood God, not shoot things to death, bs3 has also in the past been used to represent psychos that are too far gone to aim properly.

Chosen of the blood God: kharn has most of these rules, no eternal warrior, the eternal warrior is added to represent his being in the middle of some of the worst fighting the galaxy has ever seen and even when mortally wounded... Surviving to fight again, kharn and lucius deserve eternal warrior more than lysanander or Calgar.

Whirlwind of Gore: yes I am going with the 100% correct assumption that kharn is a frothing lunatic, but only when in the swirl of combat, note this is kharn, he is not a world eater, he WAS a world eater and as he said himself he cares nothing for the legion anymore, I'm not proposing world eaters are frothing lunatics I'm outright stating that when in combat kharn is.

Vulnerable to psychic powers: he has the collar of khorne still.

2+, 4++, 6+ fnp: 2+ is the to tie into the articifer armour he has that has been corrupted by chaos, 4++ is to bring in line chaos hq invulnerables with loyalist ones, named character need at least 4++ if a combat character. The 6+ fnp is a tie into to pre heresy world eaters that have gone so far down the line of madness they can shrug off wounds.

So all in all I am trying to make kharn one of the best hand to hand fighters in the game as opposed to middle ground that can die to a power fist, chaos characters historically have been combat power houses and since 4th they have been a bit lacking.

where in the Chaos Space Marines book is the collar of khorne? (also that's just reinforcing the image of Khorne being kept on leash). Also if you're going to go the route that Kharn is just a frothing maniac in combat we can just ignore his LD entirely once he inflicts a wound and say his attacks can ONLY be inflicted against models in base to base contact with him. So he inflicts 7 attacks and there's 3 enemies and 4 allied berzerkers in base to base with im, hey those 4 berzekers are getting hit too. And he MUST always run and charge toward the nearest enemy.

Ever play the 3.5 edition World Eaters? Guess what, they were the lamest army in the game because all you had to was run a tank around about 8" away from them, cause... oh they can't shoot because they had to run, and they had to charge the Tank because it was the closest enemy unit. Oh wait, you could never actually claim to be close combat with a vehicle so... yeah I get to shoot you while you're banging on the tank, and it keeps moving every turn, and you keep getting shot every turn... and you can't do anything else because you're army is nothing but a bunch of frothing stupid lunatics that honestly have no business surviving.

And you're going to tell me that's Kharn? Seriously?

As for the 2/4/6 armor.... yeah. I disagree with your logic. Artifier armour has been shown taking more resources to maintain. So yes when he had the resources of the legion to maintain his armor and equipment, sure he can continue to use artificer armor. But as you've said, he's not a World Eater anymore so he doesn't have those resources to maintain the artificer armour... so yeah chances are he switched to power armour. And same point with the Iron halo.

As for making Kharn a beast in Combat.... he already is. Sure there are characters who can dish out more attacks with higher strength.... and they're a lot more expensive then Kharn. AND most character combat he's going to win 9 out of ten times anyway. Space marine captain that doesn't have a 4++ or better... yeah Kharns killin him. Tyranid Death Leather, he's killing it. Hell, with Armourbane on GoreChild, he's got a descent chance of taking out dreadnoughts. So... yeah. I still disagree that Kharn needs any fixes.

Buttons wrote:

flodihn wrote:

Buttons wrote:

 J3f wrote:


I also came up with a Mark of Chaos Undivided. Mark of Chaos Undivided : Models with the Mark of Chaos Undivided have the Preferred Enemy and Adamantium Will Special Rule.
Chaos Lords with the Mark of Chaos Undivided can take Chosen as troops.

While I like the idea of undivided getting some love Preferred Enemy is too much. Crusader and Adamantium Will is fine, something else that boosts survivability or mobility is fine, but Preferred Enemy is too much and honestly doesn't make any sense. Why would Black Legion or Word Bearers be better at fighting Tau than World Eaters or Emperor's Children?

Maybe a chaos lord/sorcerer could choose an alignment or legion, if they are aligned with Tnzeetch, Slaanesh, Nurgle, or Khorne they get their respective cult troops, if they are undivided they can take chosen, possessed, or raptors as troops (representing Black Legion, Word Bearers, and Night Lords respectively), only choosing one of the three as troops.

If you look what the fluff what chaos undivided really do is to rally all chaos troops under the same banner, normally the chaos gods constantly fight each other, also leading to chaos troops always consider each other rivals, sometimes even leading to full scale wars.

Perhaps the chaos undivided mark on a lord could make units from different gods work better together. That would fit the fluff and lead to some interesting tactics. Imagine 5 khorne berzerkers and 5 plague marines in one squad?

While I think mixing units shouldn't be done, better synergy between units would be nice. Perhaps give unaligned the ability to take up to one of each cult unit as troops. So an unaligned Chaos Lord could take a unit of Khorne berserkers, a unit of noise marines, a unit of 1k sons, and a unit of plague marines (however he cannot have say two units of noise marines both being troops), all of them troops to represent how they can unite the various gods for specific purposes. That way an unaligned force could say bring Noise Marines to sit behind an Aegis Line in order to provide mid range firepower, while Khorne Berserkers could be used as assault troops alongside Plague Marines, with the Bersekers moving beyond the midfield objective while the Plague Marines sit on the midfield objective.

How about this then Mark of Chaos Undivided : Models with the Mark of Chaos Undivided have the Adamantium Will Special Rule and reroll to Wound rolls of 1.
Chaos Lords with the Mark of Chaos Undivided can take Chosen as troops.

I don't like the shenanigans you could get into with taking up to 4 different elites as troops. It's 1 elite as troops per HQ for everyone else.

 Formosa wrote:
Ok thanks for the criticism I will address each point as made


Ws8: heresy kharn is ws7, 10k years of near constant warfare I feel would improve this, when mechanically it makes little difference it is more of a fluff change.
The 're-roll only works on the charge (hatred) or when being charged, this means current kharn has very little chance of actually hitting his own models, not very befitting the betrayer.

If we give Kharn ws8 then Lucius should also get it.

Bs3: this is to represent not lack of skill but lack of coherent thought, kharn wants to take heads for the blood God, not shoot things to death, bs3 has also in the past been used to represent psychos that are too far gone to aim properly.

I get where you're coming frrom. While I'd rather have him keep bs5 if I were playing him bs3 is much fluffier.

Chosen of the blood God: kharn has most of these rules, no eternal warrior, the eternal warrior is added to represent his being in the middle of some of the worst fighting the galaxy has ever seen and even when mortally wounded... Surviving to fight again, kharn and lucius deserve eternal warrior more than lysanander or Calgar.

Yes. Hatred should be given to him as a warlord trait only. He's Khorne's chosen berzerker!

Whirlwind of Gore: yes I am going with the 100% correct assumption that kharn is a frothing lunatic, but only when in the swirl of combat, note this is kharn, he is not a world eater, he WAS a world eater and as he said himself he cares nothing for the legion anymore, I'm not proposing world eaters are frothing lunatics I'm outright stating that when in combat kharn is.

I don't quite understand this one.

Vulnerable to psychic powers: he has the collar of khorne still.

2+, 4++, 6+ fnp: 2+ is the to tie into the articifer armour he has that has been corrupted by chaos, 4++ is to bring in line chaos hq invulnerables with loyalist ones, named character need at least 4++ if a combat character. The 6+ fnp is a tie into to pre heresy world eaters that have gone so far down the line of madness they can shrug off wounds.

I agree with this.

Once again in combat kharn is a frothing lunatic, I don't have to tell you anything gw is telling you, my version of kharn will not chase tanks around the table ad infinitum as he doesn't have 3rds blood rage rules, the collar of khorne is old wargear he had and made him immune to psy powers, now it's a 2++ and got a name change.

Deamon armour is what he has, as someone who claims to ve familiar with 3.5 you should know thats a 2+ save, this is to tie into his pre heresy gear, and deamon armour doesn't need maintenance.
He doesn't have an iron halo either, it's the aura of darkness that gives the 4++ I just got the name wrong, and again it's added as a tie in to his pre heresy gear and is needed on a combat character.

The whirlwind of Gore is quite simple, he enters combat and steadily loses control (hence ld test) and starts to kill friend and foe alike, if failed he hits everything in base contact, this represents how kharn is in the 40k universe and it seems you believe for some reason that despite all the fluff he is in total control of himself while he goes around butchering people, pre heresy while the nails took hold he was a insane killing machine and he had MORE control back then.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 marrowick wrote:

 Formosa wrote:
Ok thanks for the criticism I will address each point as made


Ws8: heresy kharn is ws7, 10k years of near constant warfare I feel would improve this, when mechanically it makes little difference it is more of a fluff change.
The 're-roll only works on the charge (hatred) or when being charged, this means current kharn has very little chance of actually hitting his own models, not very befitting the betrayer.

If we give Kharn ws8 then Lucius should also get it.

Bs3: this is to represent not lack of skill but lack of coherent thought, kharn wants to take heads for the blood God, not shoot things to death, bs3 has also in the past been used to represent psychos that are too far gone to aim properly.

I get where you're coming frrom. While I'd rather have him keep bs5 if I were playing him bs3 is much fluffier.

Chosen of the blood God: kharn has most of these rules, no eternal warrior, the eternal warrior is added to represent his being in the middle of some of the worst fighting the galaxy has ever seen and even when mortally wounded... Surviving to fight again, kharn and lucius deserve eternal warrior more than lysanander or Calgar.

Yes. Hatred should be given to him as a warlord trait only. He's Khorne's chosen berzerker!

Whirlwind of Gore: yes I am going with the 100% correct assumption that kharn is a frothing lunatic, but only when in the swirl of combat, note this is kharn, he is not a world eater, he WAS a world eater and as he said himself he cares nothing for the legion anymore, I'm not proposing world eaters are frothing lunatics I'm outright stating that when in combat kharn is.

I don't quite understand this one.

Vulnerable to psychic powers: he has the collar of khorne still.

2+, 4++, 6+ fnp: 2+ is the to tie into the articifer armour he has that has been corrupted by chaos, 4++ is to bring in line chaos hq invulnerables with loyalist ones, named character need at least 4++ if a combat character. The 6+ fnp is a tie into to pre heresy world eaters that have gone so far down the line of madness they can shrug off wounds.

I agree with this.

I agree lucius should be ws8 too

If hatred is his warlord trait that's fine by me, he definitely should have it though.

And yeah the bs3 was a fluff thing, dudes got a master crafted plasma pistol so it won't make a whole lot of difference

Um. When did I give any indication that I was familiar with 3.5? As to the comment about chasing tanks I don't know how other people play him but I use him to go after the stronger people like Meganobs and Terminators.

 Formosa wrote:
Once again in combat kharn is a frothing lunatic, I don't have to tell you anything gw is telling you, my version of kharn will not chase tanks around the table ad infinitum as he doesn't have 3rds blood rage rules, the collar of khorne is old wargear he had and made him immune to psy powers, now it's a 2++ and got a name change.

Deamon armour is what he has, as someone who claims to ve familiar with 3.5 you should know thats a 2+ save, this is to tie into his pre heresy gear, and deamon armour doesn't need maintenance.
He doesn't have an iron halo either, it's the aura of darkness that gives the 4++ I just got the name wrong, and again it's added as a tie in to his pre heresy gear and is needed on a combat character.

The whirlwind of Gore is quite simple, he enters combat and steadily loses control (hence ld test) and starts to kill friend and foe alike, if failed he hits everything in base contact, this represents how kharn is in the 40k universe and it seems you believe for some reason that despite all the fluff he is in total control of himself while he goes around butchering people, pre heresy while the nails took hold he was a insane killing machine and he had MORE control back then.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 marrowick wrote:

 Formosa wrote:
Ok thanks for the criticism I will address each point as made


Ws8: heresy kharn is ws7, 10k years of near constant warfare I feel would improve this, when mechanically it makes little difference it is more of a fluff change.
The 're-roll only works on the charge (hatred) or when being charged, this means current kharn has very little chance of actually hitting his own models, not very befitting the betrayer.

If we give Kharn ws8 then Lucius should also get it.

Bs3: this is to represent not lack of skill but lack of coherent thought, kharn wants to take heads for the blood God, not shoot things to death, bs3 has also in the past been used to represent psychos that are too far gone to aim properly.

I get where you're coming frrom. While I'd rather have him keep bs5 if I were playing him bs3 is much fluffier.

Chosen of the blood God: kharn has most of these rules, no eternal warrior, the eternal warrior is added to represent his being in the middle of some of the worst fighting the galaxy has ever seen and even when mortally wounded... Surviving to fight again, kharn and lucius deserve eternal warrior more than lysanander or Calgar.

Yes. Hatred should be given to him as a warlord trait only. He's Khorne's chosen berzerker!

Whirlwind of Gore: yes I am going with the 100% correct assumption that kharn is a frothing lunatic, but only when in the swirl of combat, note this is kharn, he is not a world eater, he WAS a world eater and as he said himself he cares nothing for the legion anymore, I'm not proposing world eaters are frothing lunatics I'm outright stating that when in combat kharn is.

I don't quite understand this one.

Vulnerable to psychic powers: he has the collar of khorne still.

2+, 4++, 6+ fnp: 2+ is the to tie into the articifer armour he has that has been corrupted by chaos, 4++ is to bring in line chaos hq invulnerables with loyalist ones, named character need at least 4++ if a combat character. The 6+ fnp is a tie into to pre heresy world eaters that have gone so far down the line of madness they can shrug off wounds.

I agree with this.

I agree lucius should be ws8 too

If hatred is his warlord trait that's fine by me, he definitely should have it though.

And yeah the bs3 was a fluff thing, dudes got a master crafted plasma pistol so it won't make a whole lot of difference

Didn't mean you marro sorry mate

Basically in 3rd bezerkers had the rage/blood rage rule that meant they had to move towards and assault the closest enemy unit, this meant it was possible to kite a unit with either something they couldn't hurt or something fast enough to be close enough to move towards but fast enough to get away (skimmers needing a 6 to hit in cc back then), so what we're discussing is that op seems to think that I'm trying to bring that crazy rule back, it's quite the opposite infact, I'm trying to portray that they (or specifically kharn) are even more berserk than say the blood angels or space wolves.

In particular to khorne and tzeench, gw has never done even remotely a good job at portraying them in the game.

Btw I like you idea for undecided chaos (I know its undevided), it actually makes it a decent alternative to a mark.

Idea for renegade bezerkers.
Unit 5-10
Pts 13 per model
space marine bezerkers of khorne
Ws4
Bs4
S4
T4
I4
A2
Ld8
Sv3+
Veteran has ws5, access to close combat weapon list.
Wargear: bolt pistol, close combat weapon, frag and krak grenades.

Options.
May take Mark of khorne for 2pts per model.
Up to 2 models may be equipped with one of the following.
Power weapon 15pts per model
Plasma pistol 15pts per model
Power fist 25pts per model
Or up to 2 models may take the following
Flamer 5pts per model
Plasmagun 15pts per model
Meltagun 10pts per model.
The entire squad may upgrade to take chainaxes for 1pt per model.
The entire unit may upgrade to take jump packs for 5pts per model.

This is how I see an assault sqaud no longer tied to the codex astartes, but not necessarily dedicated wholly to khorne yet, so they have larger access to the armoury and a wider array of weapons available to them, but they are not as proficient in combat as khorne bezerkers (whom I will be making a suggestion for next). Kinda half way chaos marine and space marine codex.

 J3f wrote:

Buttons wrote:

flodihn wrote:

Buttons wrote:

 J3f wrote:


I also came up with a Mark of Chaos Undivided. Mark of Chaos Undivided : Models with the Mark of Chaos Undivided have the Preferred Enemy and Adamantium Will Special Rule.
Chaos Lords with the Mark of Chaos Undivided can take Chosen as troops.

While I like the idea of undivided getting some love Preferred Enemy is too much. Crusader and Adamantium Will is fine, something else that boosts survivability or mobility is fine, but Preferred Enemy is too much and honestly doesn't make any sense. Why would Black Legion or Word Bearers be better at fighting Tau than World Eaters or Emperor's Children?

Maybe a chaos lord/sorcerer could choose an alignment or legion, if they are aligned with Tnzeetch, Slaanesh, Nurgle, or Khorne they get their respective cult troops, if they are undivided they can take chosen, possessed, or raptors as troops (representing Black Legion, Word Bearers, and Night Lords respectively), only choosing one of the three as troops.

If you look what the fluff what chaos undivided really do is to rally all chaos troops under the same banner, normally the chaos gods constantly fight each other, also leading to chaos troops always consider each other rivals, sometimes even leading to full scale wars.

Perhaps the chaos undivided mark on a lord could make units from different gods work better together. That would fit the fluff and lead to some interesting tactics. Imagine 5 khorne berzerkers and 5 plague marines in one squad?

While I think mixing units shouldn't be done, better synergy between units would be nice. Perhaps give unaligned the ability to take up to one of each cult unit as troops. So an unaligned Chaos Lord could take a unit of Khorne berserkers, a unit of noise marines, a unit of 1k sons, and a unit of plague marines (however he cannot have say two units of noise marines both being troops), all of them troops to represent how they can unite the various gods for specific purposes. That way an unaligned force could say bring Noise Marines to sit behind an Aegis Line in order to provide mid range firepower, while Khorne Berserkers could be used as assault troops alongside Plague Marines, with the Bersekers moving beyond the midfield objective while the Plague Marines sit on the midfield objective.

How about this then Mark of Chaos Undivided : Models with the Mark of Chaos Undivided have the Adamantium Will Special Rule and reroll to Wound rolls of 1.
Chaos Lords with the Mark of Chaos Undivided can take Chosen as troops.

I don't like the shenanigans you could get into with taking up to 4 different elites as troops. It's 1 elite as troops per HQ for everyone else.

Taken chosen as troops isn't accurate at all when it comes to playing the unaligned legions. I don't think the Black Legion is even known for being particularly elite or well equipped, but even if it is it hardly fits the other unaligned legions like the Word Bearers or Night Lords or Iron Warriors. Honestly if you wanna give unaligned a single troop choice you might as well ditch marks for legion alignment (minor warbands can take a legion alignment of whichever legion is most similar just like space marine chapter tactics).
Emperor's Children Chaos Lord: Noise Marines
World Eaters Chaos Lord: Berserkers
Thousand Sons Sorcerer: Thousand Sons
Death Guard Chaos Lord: Plague Marines
Black Legion Chaos Lord: Terminators, cannot take marks of Slaanesh, Khorne, Nurgle, or Tzeentch
Word Bearers: Possessed, cannot take marks of Slaanesh, Khorne, Nurgle, or Tzeentch
Night Lords: Raptors, cannot take marks of Slaanesh, Khorne, Nurgle, or Tzeentch
Iron Warriors: Havocs (?), cannot take marks of Slaanesh, Khorne, Nurgle, or Tzeentch
Alpha Legion: Chosen, cannot take marks of Slaanesh, Khorne, Nurgle, or Tzeentch

Each Legion can get a special rule (they take a mark in addition to their special rule) or could just be counted as a mark of a god. In the former case it could be something like
Emperor's Children: Preferred Enemy in Challenges (their focus on swordsmanship and dueling)
World Eaters: Counter-Attack
Thousand Sons: Adamantium Will (being sorcerers and all they are better at resisting psychic powers)
Death Guard: ???
Black Legion: Crusader (being the spearhead of the black crusades and all
Word Bearers: Fear
Night Lords: Hit and Run
Iron Warriors: Stubborn
Alpha Legion: Infiltrate

So Alpha Legion can infiltrate Chosen, Emperor's Children can go around trying to hunt down champions, Night Lords can hop out of an assault if they need to, etc.

Chaos Legions is exactly what I want to avoid. I don't see what's wrong with Chosen as troops for Chaos Undivided. A force lead by a Chaos Lord leads the elites of the Chaos Gods. Noise Marines are just as elite as Chosen and even cost more.

Also, I gave Chaos Space Marines Stubborn by default. It's not shown in the quotes but it is in my original post.

I will say I do NOT feel valid in making Marks associated to Legion Organizations. I very firmly feel that these should be 2 distinctly separate concepts. If you want to run a Army of Black Legion what has a heavy Tzeentch leaning, I see no reason to not make that viable, likewise if you want to run a Biker Heavy Khorne army that such an army should be automatically tied to the World eaters.

On that note, did some work on a couple things last night (These are for the Chaos Renegades Codex):

Daemon Weapon: The most powerful of all weapons used by Chaos Champions have Daemons bound into them, imprisoned by the complex rites of the Soul Forges. Each weapon is a unique artefact, named for the warp-entity trapped within it. Some of these bear only a flicker of sentience, but some rage so powerfully against their fate that their wielder becomes a slave, and the blade the master.

During each fight sub-phase, at your characters initiative step during which the bearer of a Daemon Weapon is locked in combat, roll a D6.on a Roll of a 1, the model immediately suffers a wound with no armour
saves allowed and his Weapon Skill is 1 until the end of the Phase. On a roll of 2+, the Bearer gains that many additional attacks until the end of the phase. If the Bearer has multiple weapons, only roll a D6 is he
chooses to attack with a Daemon Weapon.

Champion of Chaos:It is not unusual for the Chaos powers to bestow strange boons and mutations upon those will kill in their name. Not all of these boons are beneficial - the Dark ones are as fickle as they are inscrutable, and even their most ardent followers are little more then pawns in a celestial game.

When a model with the Champion of Chaos Special rule kills an enemy Character in a Challange you must check to see if the Dark Gods reward him. To do this, roll a D66 on the Chaos Boon table opposite - by this we mean roll two D6, ome being designated as the ‘tens’ and the second being designated as the ‘ones’. Then refer to the table opposite to see what boon (if any) your champion has gained. So, if you roll a 3 on the tens, and a 5 on the ones, you would get a D66 result of 35 - your champion would now benefit from the Mechanoid Chaos Boon. This boon lasts for the rest of the game; make a note of it on your army roster next to the character’s entry. If a boon is rolled that the characrer already has, the roll has no effect. If an enemy Character dies as a result of multiple Wounds being allocated to it simultaneously, and one or more of those wounds were caused by te Champion, that champion still rolls on the Chaos Boon table. Not that destroying models in a sweeping advance does not confer a roll on the Chaos Boon Table. Each time a model with this special rule declines a challange, any further rolls on the Chaos Boon table it makes are done so with a -2 modifier to the D66 result. This is cumilitive, so a model that declines 3 challanges will be making rolls with a -6 modifier.

Chaos Marks (Yes, I'm sure all of you have been wanting to see these)

Mark of Khorne: Infantry, and Jump Infantry Models gain the Rage special rule.
Bike and Calvery Models conduct Hammer of Wrath attacks at +1 Strength.
Tank Models Impose a -1 to leadership checks for Death or Glory.
Walker type models gain Hammer of Wrath
Flyer models gain the Strafing Run special rule.

Mark of Nurgle: Infantry, and Jump Infantry Models have +1 toughness.
Bike Models Have the shrouded special rule.
Vehicle models automatically inflict a S5 AP- hit on all non-vehicle, and not marked by Nurgle, models within 3” of the model at the begining of the shooting phase.
Psykers with Mark of Nurgle must generate at least one of their powers from the Discipline of Nurgle.

Mark of Slaanesh: Infantry, and Jump infanty models have +1 initiative
Bike and flyer type models gain a +1 to their jink save
Vehicles:..... (I got nothing just now. Any suggestions?)
Psykers with Mark of Slaanesh must generate at least one of their powers from the Discipline of Slaanesh.

Mark of Tzeentch: Infantry, and Jump Infantry Models with the Mark of Tzeentch gain a +1 modifier to their Invulnerable save if they have one (to a maximum of 3+), or a 6+ invulnerable if they do not already have an invulnerable save.
Bike Models change their type to Jetbike
Tank and Vehicle models force re-rolls of successful hits that generate a penetration.
Psykers with the Mark of Tzeentch must generate at least one of their powers from the Discipline of Tzeentch.

Mark of Chaos Undivided: Infantry, Jump Infantry, and Bikes Models may choose to fail any leadership check they are called on to make.
Vehicle models that suffer a ‘Weapon Destroyed” result may choose which weapon is destroyed, OR sacrifice an additional Hull point in place of the weapon destroyed result.

 J3f wrote:
Chaos Legions is exactly what I want to avoid. I don't see what's wrong with Chosen as troops for Chaos Undivided. A force lead by a Chaos Lord leads the elites of the Chaos Gods. Noise Marines are just as elite as Chosen and even cost more.

Noise marines are hardly elites, simply marines with some additional biological modifications and equipment. They still only get 1 attack base like regular space marines, they aren't any better at shooting or in close combat. Honestly I don't see the problem with legion rules, it allows you to customize your army a little more, which is always nice.

Buttons wrote:

 J3f wrote:
Chaos Legions is exactly what I want to avoid. I don't see what's wrong with Chosen as troops for Chaos Undivided. A force lead by a Chaos Lord leads the elites of the Chaos Gods. Noise Marines are just as elite as Chosen and even cost more.

Noise marines are hardly elites, simply marines with some additional biological modifications and equipment. They still only get 1 attack base like regular space marines, they aren't any better at shooting or in close combat. Honestly I don't see the problem with legion rules, it allows you to customize your army a little more, which is always nice.

The problem with legion rules is that it makes Chaos lose it's uniqueness. If you want Chapter legion tactics play space marines with or without Horus Heresy Lists. The other problem is Chaos Space Marines aren't limited to 1 mark or potentially 1 legion, their would be a lot of imbalances waiting to be exploited.

I would like to see more special characters of Chaos Undivided, like a Night Lords special Character that unlocks raptors as troops.

 J3f wrote:

Buttons wrote:

 J3f wrote:
Chaos Legions is exactly what I want to avoid. I don't see what's wrong with Chosen as troops for Chaos Undivided. A force lead by a Chaos Lord leads the elites of the Chaos Gods. Noise Marines are just as elite as Chosen and even cost more.

Noise marines are hardly elites, simply marines with some additional biological modifications and equipment. They still only get 1 attack base like regular space marines, they aren't any better at shooting or in close combat. Honestly I don't see the problem with legion rules, it allows you to customize your army a little more, which is always nice.

The problem with legion rules is that it makes Chaos lose it's uniqueness. If you want Chapter legion tactics play space marines with or without Horus Heresy Lists. The other problem is Chaos Space Marines aren't limited to 1 mark or potentially 1 legion, their would be a lot of imbalances waiting to be exploited.

I would like to see more special characters of Chaos Undivided, like a Night Lords special Character that unlocks raptors as troops.

so... has no one bothered to even look at the website I set up?

I'm just asking because it seems like no one has looked under Chaos Legions on that webpage and seen the items listed under the HQ section.

Maverike_prime wrote:

 J3f wrote:

Buttons wrote:

 J3f wrote:
Chaos Legions is exactly what I want to avoid. I don't see what's wrong with Chosen as troops for Chaos Undivided. A force lead by a Chaos Lord leads the elites of the Chaos Gods. Noise Marines are just as elite as Chosen and even cost more.

Noise marines are hardly elites, simply marines with some additional biological modifications and equipment. They still only get 1 attack base like regular space marines, they aren't any better at shooting or in close combat. Honestly I don't see the problem with legion rules, it allows you to customize your army a little more, which is always nice.

The problem with legion rules is that it makes Chaos lose it's uniqueness. If you want Chapter legion tactics play space marines with or without Horus Heresy Lists. The other problem is Chaos Space Marines aren't limited to 1 mark or potentially 1 legion, their would be a lot of imbalances waiting to be exploited.

I would like to see more special characters of Chaos Undivided, like a Night Lords special Character that unlocks raptors as troops.

so... has no one bothered to even look at the website I set up?

I'm just asking because it seems like no one has looked under Chaos Legions on that webpage and seen the items listed under the HQ section.

There isn't much to see there, no links or rules. You have an HQ for ever Chaos Legion, which I think is overkill. What I want is named special characters for Chaos Undivided like an Iron Warriors special character that has Orbital Bombardment and unlocks Obliterators as troops.

 J3f wrote:

Maverike_prime wrote:

 J3f wrote:

Buttons wrote:

 J3f wrote:
Chaos Legions is exactly what I want to avoid. I don't see what's wrong with Chosen as troops for Chaos Undivided. A force lead by a Chaos Lord leads the elites of the Chaos Gods. Noise Marines are just as elite as Chosen and even cost more.

Noise marines are hardly elites, simply marines with some additional biological modifications and equipment. They still only get 1 attack base like regular space marines, they aren't any better at shooting or in close combat. Honestly I don't see the problem with legion rules, it allows you to customize your army a little more, which is always nice.

The problem with legion rules is that it makes Chaos lose it's uniqueness. If you want Chapter legion tactics play space marines with or without Horus Heresy Lists. The other problem is Chaos Space Marines aren't limited to 1 mark or potentially 1 legion, their would be a lot of imbalances waiting to be exploited.

I would like to see more special characters of Chaos Undivided, like a Night Lords special Character that unlocks raptors as troops.

so... has no one bothered to even look at the website I set up?

I'm just asking because it seems like no one has looked under Chaos Legions on that webpage and seen the items listed under the HQ section.

There isn't much to see there, no links or rules. You have an HQ for ever Chaos Legion, which I think is overkill. What I want is named special characters for Chaos Undivided like an Iron Warriors special character that has Orbital Bombardment and unlocks Obliterators as troops.

Yeah, there isn't a lot more info under Chaos Legions because I'm still working on Chaos Renegades. But let's play a game of extrapolation: Why do you think I've listed place holders for each of the Legions?

For Slaneesh vehicles how about even if they move 12" they can still fire one weapon at full ballistic skill?

Pimpwagons.

Any model within 6" of a Slaanesh vehicle (even a Necron, Tyranid or female!) is beset by lustful Daemonettes and must immediately take a Pinning Test.

 I_am_a_Spoon wrote:
Pimpwagons.

Any model within 6" of a Slaanesh vehicle (even a Necron, Tyranid or female!) is beset by lustful Daemonettes and must immediately take a Pinning Test.

I like the direction you're headed in, but please find a better way to write that out. I've read a lot of Fan-dexes that use terminology like (and actually worse then that) and I'll be honest, it just totally kills any level of professionalism the project could have ever had to it's credit.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 marrowick wrote:
For Slaneesh vehicles how about even if they move 12" they can still fire one weapon at full ballistic skill?

*grumble* this sounds right but it's setting off a red flag in the back of my mind that I can't quit pin down.

Maybe something a little simpler then.

Mark of slaanesh:
Depending on unit type the mark of slaanesh gives one of the following bonus's.
Tank: the vehicle can fire one additional weapon at full bs when moving at combat speed or cruising speed, all other weapons fire as normal (snap shots etc.).
Walker: the walker gains the fleet usr and +1 initiative.

Nurgle: depending on the unit type the Mark of nurgle grants one of the following bonus's.
Tank: stealth and defensive grenades.
Walker: stealth and both offensive and defensive grenades.

Tzeench: depending on unit type the mark of tzeench grants one of the following bonus's.
Tank: 6+ invulnerable save and -1 to the ap of all bolt weapons.
Walker: 6+ Invulnerable save and -1 to the ap of all bolt weapons.

Khorne: depending on unit type the mark of khorne grants one of the following bonus's.
Tank: any unit tank shocked by a tank with the mark of khorne takes d6 str5 ap- hits distributed as shooting, in addition to any other tank shock effects.
Walker: any Walker with the mark of khorne gains the rage and hatred usr's.

Chaos undevided: depending on the unit type the mark of chaos undevided grants the following bonus.
Tank: any enemy unit within 6" of the hull is at -1 ld for morale and pinning tests.
Walker: the walker causes Fear at a -1 ld penalty to enemy units, if the walker did not already possess the fear usr it gains it and applies the above modifier.

 Formosa wrote:
Maybe something a little simpler then.
Tzeench: depending on unit type the mark of tzeench grants one of the following bonus's.
Walker: 6+ Invulnerable save and -1 to the ap of all bolt weapons.

I had originally gone with the Mark of Tzeentch giving an Inv save to walkers, but when I started working on the HelBrute I realized I was going to be making either the mark, or some upgrades to the Helbrute I was making redundant, which is one of the core problems with the current Codex Chaos Space marines, pointless redundancy. Look at Possessed.
Designers: Here's an upgrade makes your shooting attacks better.
Possessed: Um... so we're getting guns so we actually have a shooting attack?
Designers: What? Why do you need guns?
Possessed: Um... well I guess maybe we don't actually 'need' guns, but you said these will make our shooting attack better. We don't have any shooting attacks, so I just assumed that since you were giving us an option to make our shooting attacks better that you know... you'd give us guns or something so we actually have shooting attacks.
Designer: What are you talking about? Just do the same thing the Chaos Space marine squads do with it. jeez do I have to do everything!
Possessed: Well... they have guns...so that upgrades makes their shooting attacks better.
Designer: and now your shooting attacks will be better. Seriously why is this such a hard concept?
Possessed: Yeah... but we don't have shooting attacks.
Designer: LOOK! Your shots will now have soul blaze meaning you'll do extra damage to the target you're shooting at. Now go deal with it. I have to go Make the Multilators super-bad asses on the charge! *Walks down the hall way*
Possessed: but... our shooting attacks.... don't exist... this won't help anything.... um hello? Excuse me? can we talk about this? Hello? Is anyone there?

Anyway, gimme a little bit to link up the 2 page spreads I've made.

Okay, so I've made a bunch of the 2-page spreads. Hopefully this will help illustrate the directions I feel should be taken with the Chaos: Renegades Codex, and give some hints to what I have in mind for Chaos Legions and Books of Chaos. So yeah, click on the thumbnail images to view larger sized images with readable text!
(and I noticed after I posted the links I realized some of them were actually unreadable. So full 300 PPI resolution version linked below thumbnails)


Abaddon the Despoiler

Typhus, Herald of Nurgle

Huron Blackheart

Chaos Lord

Warp Smith

Chaos Chosen

[url=http://mgc-projects.com/projects/chaos_codes/thousand_sons.png]Thousand Sons

Helbrute

Chaos Bikers Squad

Warp Talons

Armory page 1 and 2. Covers Champions of Chaos and warlord traits.

Armour page 3 and 4, Covers marks and melee weapons
With the Chaos marks, the bright green text is there as a reminder that.... yes the rule is there on the page, but I'm not totally set on it. I may very well change it.

The Warp Smith is listed twice. I'm glad that you're giving us Servitors now. I've always voted for any kind of Chaos Servitor.

 marrowick wrote:
The Warp Smith is listed twice. I'm glad that you're giving us Servitors now. I've always voted for any kind of Chaos Servitor.

Huh... so it was. Amusing since I had a lot of issues getting that image to link up properly. *shrugs* whatever, fixed now. Thanks for the catch.

And I forgot to link the Warp Talons. Fixed that now.

Also, look at what you can do with the Servitors.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
For Chaos Renegades:
So working on the Armory some more. Looking at it I'd like to open it up more for character purchases. So here's my thoughts.

Inferno Bolts may be purchased by characters with mark of Tzeentch
Blight Grenades may be purchased by Characters with Mark of Nurgle.

So now there's Slaanesh and Khorne.
What to do about them? Any thoughts from anyone?


And an Idea for Chaos legions:
an upgrade for Land Raiders:

Firey Deployment 50 pts
A tactic that was originally pioneered by the Blood Angels, during the Great Crusade, was to utilize Thunderhawk Transporters in conjunction with Land Raiders to bring the tank in to a forward position and then drop the tank in the midst of the battle. The tactic was later adopted by other Legions but largely abandoned with time though there are still those that remember the tactic and have advanced it. The Tactic is incredibly dangerous, even the robust constuction of a Land Raider is not impervious to damage, but the possibility of bringing the fire power of a Land Raider to bear in such a rapid fashion can turn the tide of battle if used appropriately. More recent revisions of the tactics call for a pin point fire bombing attack on the location that is intended to receive the Land Raider sowing confusion and fire across the area that suddenly finds itself facing down the fire power of a Land Raider.

This is an upgrade that can be purchased for a Chaos Land Raider. It grants the Land Raider the ability to perform a special kind of Deep Strike deployment as outlined below.
Select a location for the Land Raider to deep Strike as normal, including scatter, but before the Land Raider is placed conduct a single attack from a weapon with S5 AP- Heavy 3, Large Blast, ignores Cover on the same space. Once the attack is complete place the Land Raider on the selected spot. It suffers a single S8 AP- hit in the process.

Mark of khorne gives hammer of wrath to dreads, don't walkers already have this rule

 Formosa wrote:
Mark of khorne gives hammer of wrath to dreads, don't walkers already have this rule

No. they don't.

 marrowick wrote:
For Slaneesh vehicles how about even if they move 12" they can still fire one weapon at full ballistic skill?

36 inch threat range vindicators anyone? Bad move sorry

Here is the red flag maverick

 Blackskull wrote:

 marrowick wrote:
For Slaneesh vehicles how about even if they move 12" they can still fire one weapon at full ballistic skill?

36 inch threat range vindicators anyone? Bad move sorry

Here is the red flag maverick

Yeah, like I saying that suggestion was irking me somehow and yeah, that would be a big issue.

So price it at the same cost as blood Angel vindicators, 36" threat range right there and it isn't even remotely broken.

 Formosa wrote:
So price it at the same cost as blood Angel vindicators, 36" threat range right there and it isn't even remotely broken.

um.... no. Blood Angel Vindicators do NOT have a 36" threat range. Blood Angel Vindicators do not get to move 12" and then fire at normal BS. They can move 6" and then fire, or they move flat out for 18" and not fire.

Blood Angel vindicators are fast vehicles are they not?

I know the rhinos, preds and razors are but are you sure the vindicator isn't?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Just checked yes it's a fast vehicle, so 12" move and shoot and a 36" threat range

 Formosa wrote:
Blood Angel vindicators are fast vehicles are they not?

I know the rhinos, preds and razors are but are you sure the vindicator isn't?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Just checked yes it's a fast vehicle, so 12" move and shoot and a 36" threat range

Check the rule book. Fast vehicle are treated like normal except that they may move 12" when moving flat out.

Move 12" and can fire 1 non ordnance weapon at full BS?

 King Pariah wrote:
Move 12" and can fire 1 non ordnance weapon at full BS?

Honestly, the more I think it over, the less I like the idea of giving extra movement for Slaanesh. Slaanesh is all about sensations and sensoriums and feeling all the pervy stuff in ways I don't even want to consider. They move further?.... that just sounds more like a "I want it so I'll be better" kind of thing.

remove the dirge caster option and give its ability to slaaneshi marked vehicles, dirge casters are about as slaaneshi as it get

 Blackskull wrote:
remove the dirge caster option and give its ability to slaaneshi marked vehicles, dirge casters are about as slaaneshi as it get

DERP! That one's so obvious I'm a bit humbled to have not thought about it for the last 2 days.

I also noticed I neglected to include an option in the Chosen entry, So I had to update the spread. Fixed now.

Maverike_prime wrote:


Ever play the 3.5 edition World Eaters? Guess what, they were the lamest army in the game because all you had to was run a tank around about 8" away from them, cause... oh they can't shoot because they had to run, and they had to charge the Tank because it was the closest enemy unit. Oh wait, you could never actually claim to be close combat with a vehicle so... yeah I get to shoot you while you're banging on the tank, and it keeps moving every turn, and you keep getting shot every turn... and you can't do anything else because you're army is nothing but a bunch of frothing stupid lunatics that honestly have no business surviving.

And you're going to tell me that's Kharn? Seriously?

As for the 2/4/6 armor.... yeah. I disagree with your logic. Artifier armour has been shown taking more resources to maintain. So yes when he had the resources of the legion to maintain his armor and equipment, sure he can continue to use artificer armor. But as you've said, he's not a World Eater anymore so he doesn't have those resources to maintain the artificer armour... so yeah chances are he switched to power armour. And same point with the Iron halo.

Din't have any problems in 3.5 with my WE army, and also din't seem like the worst of the loot.

You din't want them to charge the tank they could hurt or waste time, you used your own Rhinos to cover them up and block LoS on the ennemy bait, you could only assault what you could see.

And if it was a problem, then you somply had to give a Powerfist+Axe of Khorne to the champ, for half the price of now, and with the discount of Champs because of Sacred Numbers, its was cheap.

Now i agree that WE are more then just foaming lunatics.

As for the Artificer armor, i disagree, we had Deamon Armors, and in the current dex there is Fleshmetal, although its for Warpsmiths and Oblits only right now, i don't see any reasons as to not make this available for other characters for 20pts.

And a special character that is limited to a 5++ save, its ridiculous.

Now the WHirlwind mechanic is bad, and for the last time also Khorne=/= God of CC, Khorne is the God of WAR, wich engulf every aspect of it, shooting included.

the only upgrade Kharn's really need, is a better save/or invul save, and EW, for a price hike of 30 or 40pts, i would'nt mond that.

Also the idea of making Dirgecaster SLaanesh only, thats the worst idea i've ever heard.

Leave it as it is, and add bonuses or something else given the God to wich the vehicle is dedicated.

You would have the basic Dirgecaster for 5pts and then for 10-15pts a Dirgecaster that spouts a Gods specific Hymn/prayers/litany, that would have an effect on ennemies/friendly modls with the Gods approriate mark.

You want to fix 1ksons? Give the sorc options. You want to fix Khorne? Marks for vehicles! Mark of khorne on a vehicle makes it an assault vehicle. Boom. Who would not take em then? I was personally offended at how death company was better every way and for cheaper than khorne zerkers. At minimum they should be equal. Or how about instead of extra attacks mark of khorne says you must always charge even if other rules say you cannot. Such as exiting vehicles and deepstrike. Now warp talons are good with khorne

 Quientin wrote:
You want to fix 1ksons? Give the sorc options. You want to fix Khorne? Marks for vehicles! Mark of khorne on a vehicle makes it an assault vehicle. Boom. Who would not take em then? I was personally offended at how death company was better every way and for cheaper than khorne zerkers. At minimum they should be equal. Or how about instead of extra attacks mark of khorne says you must always charge even if other rules say you cannot. Such as exiting vehicles and deepstrike. Now warp talons are good with khorne

So.... you've not even read the stuff I posted.... in the first post in regards to exactly what you're talking about and just going to wishlist here?




Automatically Appended Next Post:

Khorne Berzerkers]

Nurgle Plague Marines

Great work so far really liking a lot of your proposed changes. Just something I noticed under the "All is Dust" rule for the 1ksons it says that any weapon with an AP of 3 will cause instant death regardless of strength but in their profile they only have one wound so that seem like kind of a dud rule.
Also rules as written AP 1 and 2 wouldn't inflict instant death so maybe it should be Ap3 or lower? Unless this is just an old rule you have forgotten to take out

 1000thSon wrote:
Great work so far really liking a lot of your proposed changes. Just something I noticed under the "All is Dust" rule for the 1ksons it says that any weapon with an AP of 3 will cause instant death regardless of strength but in their profile they only have one wound so that seem like kind of a dud rule.
Also rules as written AP 1 and 2 wouldn't inflict instant death so maybe it should be Ap3 or lower? Unless this is just an old rule you have forgotten to take out

Eh blarg! I forgot to change that. Previously the Thousand Sons had 2 Wounds while the Plague Marines had Feel No Pain. Thanks. I'll fix that in a bit.

Maverike_prime wrote:

 1000thSon wrote:
Great work so far really liking a lot of your proposed changes. Just something I noticed under the "All is Dust" rule for the 1ksons it says that any weapon with an AP of 3 will cause instant death regardless of strength but in their profile they only have one wound so that seem like kind of a dud rule.
Also rules as written AP 1 and 2 wouldn't inflict instant death so maybe it should be Ap3 or lower? Unless this is just an old rule you have forgotten to take out

Eh blarg! I forgot to change that. Previously the Thousand Sons had 2 Wounds while the Plague Marines had Feel No Pain. Thanks. I'll fix that in a bit.

Perhaps you should still list what revision version they are because until he made that post I didn't know that they had been updated.

This makes me want to play CSM.

 Clefty wrote:
This makes me want to play CSM.

I'll take that has a positive.


Now I have a different top to bring up: The Chaos Commander.

I want a Lt figure back in the Chaos Army. Lessor Lords who are not as well established as a Lord proper. Specialized commanders who bring an otherwise unique unit element to the Lords army, until the day that the commander replaces the Lord that is anyway.

A Chaos Commander is an aspiring Chaos Lord who has yet to achieve that particular plateau of status. Sometimes referred to as a Lesser Lord, a Minor Lord, or a Lieutenant, Chaos Commanders are generally seen in service of more established Lords acting as some form of second in command, even if it’s only that keep a rival commander in check.

Much like the Lord that they are in service to, Chaos Commanders are ambitious individuals who crave the power and prestige that comes with command. Some rise to a position of authority through skill and guile; manipulating their opponents to destroy themselves so that they may claim the spoils. Other rise to their position through subversion, whispering in the ear of a more powerful lord so that lord will marginalize the rival or sacrificing them leaving the commander to consolidate their power. Some commanders will rise in authority through sheer brute force, battering aside those that challenge, dominating those that will serve and killing those that will not.
Very often, a Chaos Commander will be an operational expert in a manner of warfare that is in opposition to the Lord’s preferred method of war. A Siege Master Lord, who is an expert in fixed emplacements and ranged bombardment, may make use of a Strike leader that can sow discord and chaos in the enemy lines with the usage of Bikers and Raptors. A Commander who has affinity for Daemon strikes may ally with a Lord who has command of Heavy armour detachments.

Less established Commander may bring the service of an elite hard hitting unit to the command of a Lord and gain favor with that lord. A team of specialist Chaos Space Marines under the command of an experienced commander can be used to sow terror amongst the enemy lines, conduct an assassination of an opposing commander, or destroy critical supply lines crippling an enemy force in its tracks. But Commander still aspire to become Lords themselves, and it is only a matter of time until they will make a bid for the power of a Lord, more often not at the expense of the lord themselves.

So... what do I make the Chaos Commander unit wise?

Like old 3.5 lieutenants.

Chappy/Captain stats with two wounds for 45 points base, with acces to all wargear.

Maybe also something like can take one per Lord in the detachement and doesn't count as HQ.

With a Grim Aura feature, something like all chaos models in a 6/12 " of him reroll failed moral checks and add +1 to their combat resolution.

Right now thats what i can come up with

50pts naked and 2 wounds and lots of options for either personal benefit or army buffs, mainly lots of options though.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Btw you need to stop asking people not to wishlist, you never know if there may be a good idea they have that you didn't think of.

Also your khorne bezerkers have slow and purposeful.

 Formosa wrote:
50pts naked and 2 wounds and lots of options for either personal benefit or army buffs, mainly lots of options though.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Btw you need to stop asking people not to wishlist, you never know if there may be a good idea they have that you didn't think of.

Also your khorne bezerkers have slow and purposeful.

No, I really don't need to stop asking people to not wishlist here. I went through a modicum of effort to lay out the problems that I saw with several units to provide a basis of what I was working to correct and I feel very justified in asking others do the same.

"Give the sorcerer options" does not accomplish that.

"The sorcerer is insultingly under equipped and has pitiful few options to address this short coming. The Random nature of the Psychic power tables limits his strategic abilities and means we cant really count on getting anything to help shore up those problems. All of the psychic tables he has access to only gives abilities that are offensive, though Iron arm is an exception to this. It's a 1 in three chance option. He really needs to get more options to deal with this, something that we can outfit him with in order to deal with massed units as opposed to hoping we get Molten Beam, which we then need to have to spent the extra 25 points for the extra mastery level to use."
[Note I posted the above passage as an example, I don't actually agree with it]


That is actually something productive. it explains why the poster feels there is a problem with the unit and gives some indication of how to go about addressing it.

"give sorcerer options" is just another way of saying "I want more!!!!!!! GIMME! GIMME! GIMME!"

As for the Berzerkers.... yeah. That's what I get for building on top of previous files. Thanks for the catch. Fixing it now.

Is there any chance of bringing back generic daemon weapons or some form of non-unwieldy AP 2 CCWs that can be taken by guys of any alignment (unlike the Axe that makes you -1 WS). I mean Chaos Lords lose a lot of their intimidation when terminators always get their armour save to the point where I am almost certain that Lucius loses to a generic tactical terminator in a fight the majority of the time. I mean Chaos Lords should look big and scary, yet they are effectively useless against 2+ unless they take a power axe or fist, which cripples the main benefit of units with the mark of Slaanesh.

7th Edition Suggested Updates And Amendments

with the 7th edition drop warp points are useless and meaning the sons could do with some minor tweaking tzeentch powers as witch fires don't limit them to one each as all psykers can fire continuously.

tweaks
thousand sons grant 1 extra warp dice per 5 models for use in the casting phase ONLY, you cannot use them for the purposes of dispelling

other notes
in a weird twist we need to improve the heldrakes as faq and 7th edition have nerfed it to the point of uselessness, the turkey is dead, and we must inject life into it.

for those uninformed I have bad news
drakes weapons are now hull mounted so no 360 fire
vector strikes are now 1 hit against ground targets at ap2 and d3 hits against flyers

in short its no longer worth the 170pts cost tag

Up to 180* arc str6 torrent ap3, 5++ it will not die, deamon, 170pts, that's still damn good, add on d3 vector strike vs flyers and fmc, ap2, single vector strike against ground troops, I'm not seeing why this thing doesn't cost more personally.

Honestly what could you add to that list to make it better?

um 90* front arc, read hull weapons

No. The helTurkey is not dead, if anything it became more fair. I've been arguing against it's ability to putt blast enemies since day 1. It's weapon is in it's mouth! Why was it able to fart on me and eject a flaming gout of fire? No, the Hell duck is still perfectly viable and more fair now. I'm not touching that thing.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Formosa wrote:
Up to 180* arc str6 torrent ap3, 5++ it will not die, deamon, 170pts, that's still damn good, add on d3 vector strike vs flyers and fmc, ap2, single vector strike against ground troops, I'm not seeing why this thing doesn't cost more personally.

Honestly what could you add to that list to make it better?

please, don't ask that question. Someone will inevitably say it needs missiles because of whatever reason, or that it needs a 3+ jink save because they failed a roll once and it crashed and burned, or that it needs to be AV 14 because it's supposed to be a flying land raider or that it needs to be 90 points because..... hell I donno. I hate the helTurkey and am frankly glade it got nerfed the way it did.

ok we will leave the turkey...(and wow what a sulk maverike)

but 7th changed things and we should alter a few things to balance out

daemon prices for example got hit really hard, they were meh for their price previously now they are almost unusable.

for those that don't know
FMC rules changed, now the turn you switch flight modes you cant charge, and the prince wasn't that hard to kill to begin with and now he has to wait a whole turn before charging, black mace prince got benched.

Smash is trade all attacks for one Sx2 attack that rerolls pen, more often than not you will probable fail to pen or miss and with vehicle damage chart changes the chances of you knocking out an ork truck are sketchy

challenges changed, this is actually a bad thing for the prince, normally I would challenge on my turn and paste the sergeant leaving the unit locked in combat (and hence unable to be shot at), by prince would then slaughter the squad in my opponent's turn before moving on to the next one during mine. now excess attacks carry over to the squad meaning I delete the opponents unit and then get shot to pieces as a grounded price is a dead one

the mighty have hit rock bottom, thoughts?

Yeah looks like chaos took another hit for some reason, at this point I'm thinking I may just shelf them in favour of just playing hh.

I see op's dex continuing the problems sadly and not making any of the radical changes that are desperately needed, but I wish him all the luck in the world and hope it at least makes chaos playable.

 Blackskull wrote:
now excess attacks carry over to the squad meaning I delete the opponents unit and then get shot to pieces as a grounded price is a dead one

Eh, I consider it a mixed bag. At least a blob of guardsmen can't issue challenges against your daemon prince to keep him tied up for the entire game.

 Formosa wrote:
Yeah looks like chaos took another hit for some reason, at this point I'm thinking I may just shelf them in favour of just playing hh.

I see op's dex continuing the problems sadly and not making any of the radical changes that are desperately needed, but I wish him all the luck in the world and hope it at least makes chaos playable.

Yeah getting hit square in the face with a new set of rules really kind of derailed my efforts radically so. So now I basically have to start over, again. As for the Radical changes, or lack there of, to what do you refer?

If only GW codexes were this awesome

 Formosa wrote:
Yeah looks like chaos took another hit for some reason, at this point I'm thinking I may just shelf them in favour of just playing hh.

I see op's dex continuing the problems sadly and not making any of the radical changes that are desperately needed, but I wish him all the luck in the world and hope it at least makes chaos playable.

You should definitely give the HH a go, playing Legions in even regular 40k is quite enjoyable. I personally am building a 1k Thousand Sons chapter, I plan on every 1k points being dedicated to one of the nine cults of Prospero.

 Clefty wrote:

 Formosa wrote:
Yeah looks like chaos took another hit for some reason, at this point I'm thinking I may just shelf them in favour of just playing hh.

I see op's dex continuing the problems sadly and not making any of the radical changes that are desperately needed, but I wish him all the luck in the world and hope it at least makes chaos playable.

You should definitely give the HH a go, playing Legions in even regular 40k is quite enjoyable. I personally am building a 1k Thousand Sons chapter, I plan on every 1k points being dedicated to one of the nine cults of Prospero.

if I had the ability to play more then 4-5 games a month I would, but sadly I don't. and the couple people I can game with aren't interested in Horus Heresy games. So I can read the books... and... um... read the books. That being said, Legions wouldn't be Chaos Renegades. They would be Chaos Legions. Which is a different book then the one I'm focusing on right now.

Maverike_prime wrote:

 Clefty wrote:

 Formosa wrote:
Yeah looks like chaos took another hit for some reason, at this point I'm thinking I may just shelf them in favour of just playing hh.

I see op's dex continuing the problems sadly and not making any of the radical changes that are desperately needed, but I wish him all the luck in the world and hope it at least makes chaos playable.

You should definitely give the HH a go, playing Legions in even regular 40k is quite enjoyable. I personally am building a 1k Thousand Sons chapter, I plan on every 1k points being dedicated to one of the nine cults of Prospero.

if I had the ability to play more then 4-5 games a month I would, but sadly I don't. and the couple people I can game with aren't interested in Horus Heresy games. So I can read the books... and... um... read the books. That being said, Legions wouldn't be Chaos Renegades. They would be Chaos Legions. Which is a different book then the one I'm focusing on right now.

Not necessarily, the Legions were widely broken up into Warbands after the shattering of Horus. I would simply apply the Legion Specific Legiones Astartes special rule with additional content for the evolution of their Legion after the HH.

 Clefty wrote:

Maverike_prime wrote:

 Clefty wrote:

 Formosa wrote:
Yeah looks like chaos took another hit for some reason, at this point I'm thinking I may just shelf them in favour of just playing hh.

I see op's dex continuing the problems sadly and not making any of the radical changes that are desperately needed, but I wish him all the luck in the world and hope it at least makes chaos playable.

You should definitely give the HH a go, playing Legions in even regular 40k is quite enjoyable. I personally am building a 1k Thousand Sons chapter, I plan on every 1k points being dedicated to one of the nine cults of Prospero.

if I had the ability to play more then 4-5 games a month I would, but sadly I don't. and the couple people I can game with aren't interested in Horus Heresy games. So I can read the books... and... um... read the books. That being said, Legions wouldn't be Chaos Renegades. They would be Chaos Legions. Which is a different book then the one I'm focusing on right now.

Not necessarily, the Legions were widely broken up into Warbands after the shattering of Horus. I would simply apply the Legion Specific Legiones Astartes special rule with additional content for the evolution of their Legion after the HH.

irony abound, that.... exactly what I already did the Legionary Squad.

irony abound, that.... exactly what I already did the Legionary Squad.

I can't seem to find what the traits do though. They should still have the portion of the Legiones Astartes special rule that always allows them to attempt to regroup. I would also give the Legionaries a Close Combat weapon, alongside switching the unit sizes for Chaos Space Marines and Chaos Legionaries.

 Clefty wrote:

irony abound, that.... exactly what I already did the Legionary Squad.

I can't seem to find what the traits do though. They should still have the portion of the Legiones Astartes special rule that always allows them to attempt to regroup.

Now see here's one of the points of difference that I was to emphasis between Codex: Chaos Renegades and Codex: Chaos Legions.

Chaos Renegades are not so much an army, as they're a conglomeration of separate groups that are following this particular lord/commander/sorcerer today. Yes, the Lord probably has his own cadre of warriors that are being supplemented by those 2 squads of Khorne Berzerkers and the Warp Smith that is bringing his Daemon engines to war alongside him. But they're only there because the lord is able to offer something that the group in question wants. A chance for slaughter for the Berzerkers, a scroll of information that leads to some lost artifact of Nurgle for the Plague Marines, a partial STC template the Warp Smith is seeking.... you get the idea. But that's as far as their loyalty goes to this particular lord. The whole time the question of "Is this worth that payment?" will be in play. If that particular groups feels that the battle is turning against them, they may just decide to leave the lord to his fate. So, no. I do not feel that there should be such to always attempt to regroup amongst the Chaos Renegades

Chaos Legions is a different story. Here you actually have an army with a commander that the army answers to. You have detachments of officers who are loyal to their commander and their purpose. Sure, there are some elements that are harder to control then others, Berzerkers when they get into the mood, Thousand Sons when there isn't a Sorcerer present to control them, ect. But for the most part, a Chaos Legion army is.... well an army. If the commander is killed, there is an order of command that is followed, and there's a direction of purpose. "The Commanders' been killed, We must achieve the objective to validate that death!" So they would push forward and look to the next officer in question for command. So yeah, Legions would have the ability to attempt to regroup regardless of other circumstances.

As for the traits... I... I honestly don't know how I can possibly spell out their effects any more clearly then they already are.
Will of Iron: unit has Adamantium will and Tank Hunter.
-What is unclear there?
Terror in the Night: the Unit has fear and night vision.
- what's the question about this?
Master of the Battlefield: The unit has Outflank and acute senses (Though this probably needs to be changed with the release of 7th)
- the unit has those two special rules, What's unclear here?
A Knife in the night: The unit has Scout and Stealth.
-The unit has Scout and stealth. How can I make that clearer?
Burn it all- The unit gets to re-roll failed to wounds with Flamer weapons.
-The unit... gets to re-roll wounds with flamer weapons. Seriously, how is this unclear?
A keen eye: it gets to re-roll snap shots, and to-hit rolls of 1.
-okay... what is unclear about this?

Seriously, what do you mean you don't understand what the traits do?

Maverike_prime wrote:

 Clefty wrote:

irony abound, that.... exactly what I already did the Legionary Squad.

I can't seem to find what the traits do though. They should still have the portion of the Legiones Astartes special rule that always allows them to attempt to regroup.

Now see here's one of the points of difference that I was to emphasis between Codex: Chaos Renegades and Codex: Chaos Legions.

Chaos Renegades are not so much an army, as they're a conglomeration of separate groups that are following this particular lord/commander/sorcerer today. Yes, the Lord probably has his own cadre of warriors that are being supplemented by those 2 squads of Khorne Berzerkers and the Warp Smith that is bringing his Daemon engines to war alongside him. But they're only there because the lord is able to offer something that the group in question wants. A chance for slaughter for the Berzerkers, a scroll of information that leads to some lost artifact of Nurgle for the Plague Marines, a partial STC template the Warp Smith is seeking.... you get the idea. But that's as far as their loyalty goes to this particular lord. The whole time the question of "Is this worth that payment?" will be in play. If that particular groups feels that the battle is turning against them, they may just decide to leave the lord to his fate. So, no. I do not feel that there should be such to always attempt to regroup amongst the Chaos Renegades

Chaos Legions is a different story. Here you actually have an army with a commander that the army answers to. You have detachments of officers who are loyal to their commander and their purpose. Sure, there are some elements that are harder to control then others, Berzerkers when they get into the mood, Thousand Sons when there isn't a Sorcerer present to control them, ect. But for the most part, a Chaos Legion army is.... well an army. If the commander is killed, there is an order of command that is followed, and there's a direction of purpose. "The Commanders' been killed, We must achieve the objective to validate that death!" So they would push forward and look to the next officer in question for command. So yeah, Legions would have the ability to attempt to regroup regardless of other circumstances.

As for the traits... I... I honestly don't know how I can possibly spell out their effects any more clearly then they already are.
Will of Iron: unit has Adamantium will and Tank Hunter.
-What is unclear there?
Terror in the Night: the Unit has fear and night vision.
- what's the question about this?
Master of the Battlefield: The unit has Outflank and acute senses (Though this probably needs to be changed with the release of 7th)
- the unit has those two special rules, What's unclear here?
A Knife in the night: The unit has Scout and Stealth.
-The unit has Scout and stealth. How can I make that clearer?
Burn it all- The unit gets to re-roll failed to wounds with Flamer weapons.
-The unit... gets to re-roll wounds with flamer weapons. Seriously, how is this unclear?
A keen eye: it gets to re-roll snap shots, and to-hit rolls of 1.
-okay... what is unclear about this?

Seriously, what do you mean you don't understand what the traits do?

Oh! No, I mean I didn't see what the traits where. The hyperlink labeled Chaos Marine traits wasn't working for me.

 Clefty wrote:

Maverike_prime wrote:

 Clefty wrote:

irony abound, that.... exactly what I already did the Legionary Squad.

I can't seem to find what the traits do though. They should still have the portion of the Legiones Astartes special rule that always allows them to attempt to regroup.

Now see here's one of the points of difference that I was to emphasis between Codex: Chaos Renegades and Codex: Chaos Legions.

Chaos Renegades are not so much an army, as they're a conglomeration of separate groups that are following this particular lord/commander/sorcerer today. Yes, the Lord probably has his own cadre of warriors that are being supplemented by those 2 squads of Khorne Berzerkers and the Warp Smith that is bringing his Daemon engines to war alongside him. But they're only there because the lord is able to offer something that the group in question wants. A chance for slaughter for the Berzerkers, a scroll of information that leads to some lost artifact of Nurgle for the Plague Marines, a partial STC template the Warp Smith is seeking.... you get the idea. But that's as far as their loyalty goes to this particular lord. The whole time the question of "Is this worth that payment?" will be in play. If that particular groups feels that the battle is turning against them, they may just decide to leave the lord to his fate. So, no. I do not feel that there should be such to always attempt to regroup amongst the Chaos Renegades

Chaos Legions is a different story. Here you actually have an army with a commander that the army answers to. You have detachments of officers who are loyal to their commander and their purpose. Sure, there are some elements that are harder to control then others, Berzerkers when they get into the mood, Thousand Sons when there isn't a Sorcerer present to control them, ect. But for the most part, a Chaos Legion army is.... well an army. If the commander is killed, there is an order of command that is followed, and there's a direction of purpose. "The Commanders' been killed, We must achieve the objective to validate that death!" So they would push forward and look to the next officer in question for command. So yeah, Legions would have the ability to attempt to regroup regardless of other circumstances.

As for the traits... I... I honestly don't know how I can possibly spell out their effects any more clearly then they already are.
Will of Iron: unit has Adamantium will and Tank Hunter.
-What is unclear there?
Terror in the Night: the Unit has fear and night vision.
- what's the question about this?
Master of the Battlefield: The unit has Outflank and acute senses (Though this probably needs to be changed with the release of 7th)
- the unit has those two special rules, What's unclear here?
A Knife in the night: The unit has Scout and Stealth.
-The unit has Scout and stealth. How can I make that clearer?
Burn it all- The unit gets to re-roll failed to wounds with Flamer weapons.
-The unit... gets to re-roll wounds with flamer weapons. Seriously, how is this unclear?
A keen eye: it gets to re-roll snap shots, and to-hit rolls of 1.
-okay... what is unclear about this?

Seriously, what do you mean you don't understand what the traits do?

Oh! No, I mean I didn't see what the traits where. The hyperlink labeled Chaos Marine traits wasn't working for me.

oh.... I got nothing. Nothing in the server reports about any kind of problem. You should have been able to pull it up no problem.

 Clefty wrote:

 Formosa wrote:
Yeah looks like chaos took another hit for some reason, at this point I'm thinking I may just shelf them in favour of just playing hh.

I see op's dex continuing the problems sadly and not making any of the radical changes that are desperately needed, but I wish him all the luck in the world and hope it at least makes chaos playable.

You should definitely give the HH a go, playing Legions in even regular 40k is quite enjoyable. I personally am building a 1k Thousand Sons chapter, I plan on every 1k points being dedicated to one of the nine cults of Prospero.

I do play hh and now it's quickly outpacing my 40k interest simply due to being able to see the love and attention that fw has put into the legions, chaos dex was copy pasted and shat out in what looks like a few hours so they could work on the space marine dex that actually had some thought put into it.

Like I said before it will take some rather radical changes to getthe chaos dex out of the toilet.

 Formosa wrote:

 Clefty wrote:

 Formosa wrote:
Yeah looks like chaos took another hit for some reason, at this point I'm thinking I may just shelf them in favour of just playing hh.

I see op's dex continuing the problems sadly and not making any of the radical changes that are desperately needed, but I wish him all the luck in the world and hope it at least makes chaos playable.

You should definitely give the HH a go, playing Legions in even regular 40k is quite enjoyable. I personally am building a 1k Thousand Sons chapter, I plan on every 1k points being dedicated to one of the nine cults of Prospero.

I do play hh and now it's quickly outpacing my 40k interest simply due to being able to see the love and attention that fw has put into the legions, chaos dex was copy pasted and shat out in what looks like a few hours so they could work on the space marine dex that actually had some thought put into it.

Like I said before it will take some rather radical changes to getthe chaos dex out of the toilet.

Changing the force org for the codex, re-building half the units from the ground up, adding several units, and revamping a majority of the remaining units in addition to building 2 entire new books doesn't count as radical? What are you expecting?

Not a snipe at you but your not re building units from the ground up, your making a renegade codex as a full on chaos book and no renegades, renegades don't have full on plague marines, khorne bezerkers, noise marines and no rubric marines at all.

Where are all the space marine vehicles, land speeders, storm shields, thunder hammers, grav weapons, imperial guard, abhumans, basically where are all the things that distinguish renegades from chaos space marines, hell they should even have chapter tactics if you want to go into enough detail and trust players to be able to have individual units with different chapter tactics.

Renegades are not chaos space marines, they are space marines who are independent from the imperium and may be on the path of chaos, so chaos renegades should be a mix of space marine and chaos marine equipment, no deamons, no hellbrutes (I know functionally they are the same, but names are important) limited access to both space marine and chaos armoury, access to imperial guard as battle brothers (traitor guard as allies or in the codex).

That's just the renegade book.

IGNORE THIS POST

I hit the post button too early sorry it didn't make sense bud

 Formosa wrote:
Not a snipe at you but your not re building units from the ground up, your making a renegade codex as a full on chaos book and no renegades, renegades don't have full on plague marines, khorne bezerkers, noise marines and no rubric marines at all.

Where are all the space marine vehicles, land speeders, storm shields, thunder hammers, grav weapons, imperial guard, abhumans, basically where are all the things that distinguish renegades from chaos space marines, hell they should even have chapter tactics if you want to go into enough detail and trust players to be able to have individual units with different chapter tactics.

Renegades are not chaos space marines, they are space marines who are independent from the imperium and may be on the path of chaos, so chaos renegades should be a mix of space marine and chaos marine equipment, no deamons, no hellbrutes (I know functionally they are the same, but names are important) limited access to both space marine and chaos armoury, access to imperial guard as battle brothers (traitor guard as allies or in the codex).

That's just the renegade book.

okay, so let me get this straight:

You're not looking for a Chaos Renegades books, IE: a book that represents a cross sections of the Traitor Space Marines, Traitor Legion groups, Warbands, Traitor Guardsman, Mutants, and dejected scum that will march under the Chaos banner. But rather you want Codex: Space Marines with spikes, combined with Codex: Astra Militarium with dark red paint AND you want everything else thats ever been tossed in under the title of "Chaos" in the book.

No, I'm sorry. I can not accomplish that. You are talking about a book that would be monstrously huge with dozens of rules regarding army comp and yet would turn out to just be a Copy and paste with some color changes of the Codex: Space Marines and Codex: Astra Militarium. I understand what you are saying about your view of Chaos Renegades, and in a certain particular light I can agree with you on an object example basis. Have their been Storm Shield+Thunder hammer equipped Terminators that have turned traitor? Probably. Do I feel that that means the Chaos terminators should have Thunder Hammers and Storm Shields? No. I don't agree with the belief of "Space Marines have [insert name] so Chaos should have it." On a story basis, sure. You want to have a group of Chaos Terminators with Storm Shields and Thunder Hammers that are playing Anvil to their Land Speeder support team, go for it. ADB did it with the Nightlords series. More power to him. Do I feel that such a point justifies putting those options in the army list? No. I do not. Codex:Chaos Space Marines has needed to fight off this concept of "We're just Space Marines with spikes" for decades and they've managed to accomplish that point.

And then on top of that, you're going to ignore everything I have already laid out and say I'm not going to do something even though I have said I am going to do something? Seriously, have you even looked at the website I set up? More specifically the list of units under Chaos Renegades? I'll draw your attention to 2 entries:

Outcasts

Traitor Militarium platoon

Now I will absolutely admit I haven't had a chance to actually post any information about those two units, but just from the name and the pictures on their respective pages, what do you think those units are?

You got me all wrong as I said it's not YOU that I'm sniping at, this is what I expect from gw, it's a radical change to which I'm referring, then they do a chaos legions book to cover them specifically, for traitor guard it's easy just add chaos orders and warlords traits and allow marks on hq's only.

Just to be clear I'm not expecting you to do this, I have seen your site and understand your design aesthetic (mostly).

In regards to renegades, adb did chaos legion renegades not chapter so yes there is a distinct difference, chapter renegades DO have there equipment still, they DO have storm shield, land raiders etc.
There is no reason what so ever that when a chapter or unit goes rogue that suddenly all the chapters arsenal just vanishes, over years etc they will be lost maybe but that's then either a dead chapter (so not playable) or have become full on chaos marines and are being supplied by chaos forces and would then gain that equipment.

I'm now working on my own book (dark angels) and will keep checking in on your progress, wish you the best of luck man.

 Formosa wrote:
You got me all wrong as I said it's not YOU that I'm sniping at, this is what I expect from gw, it's a radical change to which I'm referring, then they do a chaos legions book to cover them specifically, for traitor guard it's easy just add chaos orders and warlords traits and allow marks on hq's only.

Just to be clear I'm not expecting you to do this, I have seen your site and understand your design aesthetic (mostly).

In regards to renegades, adb did chaos legion renegades not chapter so yes there is a distinct difference, chapter renegades DO have there equipment still, they DO have storm shield, land raiders etc.
There is no reason what so ever that when a chapter or unit goes rogue that suddenly all the chapters arsenal just vanishes, over years etc they will be lost maybe but that's then either a dead chapter (so not playable) or have become full on chaos marines and are being supplied by chaos forces and would then gain that equipment.

I'm now working on my own book (dark angels) and will keep checking in on your progress, wish you the best of luck man.

So now it's not about me, it's about GW?

As for the reference to ADB's Night Lords I was actually referring to Talos and First Claw using assault cannon armed Terminator suits.

Yeah you asked what radical changes were needed so I answered, and yep the assault canon and terminator suits came from salamanders that they were stolen from, didn't miraculously turn into a reaper autocannon as soon as they repainted the armour.though eh? In case you misread thet btw it is a joke.

 Formosa wrote:
Yeah you asked what radical changes were needed so I answered, and yep the assault canon and terminator suits came from salamanders that they were stolen from, didn't miraculously turn into a reaper autocannon as soon as they repainted the armour.though eh? In case you misread thet btw it is a joke.

Yes I got the joke. As for the radical changes point, you originally said

 Formosa wrote:
Yeah looks like chaos took another hit for some reason, at this point I'm thinking I may just shelf them in favour of just playing hh.

I see op's dex continuing the problems sadly and not making any of the radical changes that are desperately needed, but I wish him all the luck in the world and hope it at least makes chaos playable.

No where in there did you reference GW, but me. So... yeah.

Did you start said problems

"I see op's dex continuing the problems sadly and not making any of the radical changes that are desperately needed"

Continuing the problems others started, sounds like the blame is with gw, your just continuing them, I even went on to say

"but I wish him all the luck in the world and hope it at least makes chaos playable."

Sounds like I'm wishing you luck with the changes your making,but not holding much hope, seen alot of chaos fan books over the years, none have managed yet, lack of hope right there.

If you take comments out of context and read only what you want to then your going to have some issues on a forum where context can be lost due to the medium, look for negativity and you will get negativity, above was a positive statement you took negatively.

The crux of the matter seems to be that you have a vision in mind for the renegades book but so far all you are doing is making the current chaos space marines book with a few tweaks, you seem (obviously I can't be certain of this) to be ignoring alot of the fluff on renegades and as I have repeatedly reminded you that these things exist and should be representable on the table, renegades is the simplist of the chaos factions to do as they quite literally are space marines with marks that are just starting along the path to being full blown chaos space marines, if you want to represent them at the end of the path then chaos space marines is what your looking for not renegades, what I suggest is a thread on the background forum and see what others say too.

If you want me to explain myself further I'm happy to

 Formosa wrote:
Did you start said problems

"I see op's dex continuing the problems sadly and not making any of the radical changes that are desperately needed"

Continuing the problems others started, sounds like the blame is with gw, your just continuing them, I even went on to say

"but I wish him all the luck in the world and hope it at least makes chaos playable."

Sounds like I'm wishing you luck with the changes your making,but not holding much hope, seen alot of chaos fan books over the years, none have managed yet, lack of hope right there.

If you take comments out of context and read only what you want to then your going to have some issues on a forum where context can be lost due to the medium, look for negativity and you will get negativity, above was a positive statement you took negatively.

The crux of the matter seems to be that you have a vision in mind for the renegades book but so far all you are doing is making the current chaos space marines book with a few tweaks, you seem (obviously I can't be certain of this) to be ignoring alot of the fluff on renegades and as I have repeatedly reminded you that these things exist and should be representable on the table, renegades is the simplist of the chaos factions to do as they quite literally are space marines with marks that are just starting along the path to being full blown chaos space marines, if you want to represent them at the end of the path then chaos space marines is what your looking for not renegades, what I suggest is a thread on the background forum and see what others say too.

If you want me to explain myself further I'm happy to

I always welcome ideas, information and suggestions. There are 2 caveats to that statement I must add because I've been shoved this particular rabbit hole too many times already.
1) Just because you have made the suggestion, presented the idea, or provided the information, there is no expectation that said information, suggestion, or idea will be used in the form as you have presented it.
2) names are just names. Just because a group of solders with lasguns are called "Planetary Defense teams" and not an Astra Militarium Platoon does not mean that there needs to be an Astra Militarium platoon army entry, and a Planetary defense team army entry if there is no discernible in-game difference. (Yes, I am referring to the "There should be both helbrutes and dreadnoughts' debate but it extends beyond that example).

Are Heretics any different than Cultists? If so then we could make a unit for them.