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Stop GW Now @ 2014/04/29 14:39:46


Post by: rexscarlet


GW is continuing to make "current" purchased rules publications obsolete with the release of another purchased rules publication. (the list is long)
.
$75 Main/Big Rule Book obsolete in less than two years (6e 23rd of June, 2012)
Wow, just wow.
.
It has to stop, and the 40K community are the only ones that can stop it.
.
Stop being lemmings, this goes for the Distributors and/or FLGS also, Stop GW now.
.
Sticking FLGS and/or Distributors with dead stock with NO buyback program. (fyi, Walmart does not own one product in the entire store, if magazines do not sell, the magazine company takes them back, that goes for the entire contents of the store. Other retailers have similar buyback programs in place, it is common practice in retail)
Closing Countries Borders to selling. (CA, AU, etc.)
GW Direct "only" products, this includes E-Books.
Cease and desist to Fan fiction and homebrew rules websites.
No FLGS Internet sales.
No "new" FaQs for months, no older FaQs on the "new" website.
No rules Support, ever.
Massive flooding of multiple Rule Books with huge issues attached to each.
No Battle Bunkers, No tables in GW stores.(where players used to get "fair" House Rules being used by a large majority, rather than relying on non GW Tournaments).
No Outriders.
GW Stock in the toilet.
Etc. (add to this list if you want)
.
All of which We will have to Pay For.
.
Stop GW Now


Stop GW Now @ 2014/04/29 14:40:32


Post by: gorgon


I can't believe no one's ever thought of boycotting before.


Stop GW Now @ 2014/04/29 14:42:55


Post by: Accolade


I'm pretty sure this isn't News or Rumors, might make more sense in 40k General Discussions.


Stop GW Now @ 2014/04/29 14:44:10


Post by: nkelsch


Honestly, the lack of balance and decline of competitive 40k is doing wonders for forcing a boycott.

I have piles of money to spend on hobby stuff, but GW won't make new Ork models or rules and have made the game unplayable for my codex.

So they have basically driven me out of wargaming back to RPG/dungeon/board games. Oh well


Stop GW Now @ 2014/04/29 14:45:28


Post by: cincydooley


Oh no!!! You have to buy new rules every few years. The horror! The horror!!


Automatically Appended Next Post:
And it's a shame I won't be able to use my 6E rulebook if I want to with my friends.

Oh wait? What's that? I can? I can play with old rulebooks? GW doesn't take them from me? Does that mean I can play OOP games like confrontation, too? Wait? It does?

Whoa. Revelatory.


Stop GW Now @ 2014/04/29 14:51:36


Post by: Maddermax


Just try other games for a while. You'll soon find your cares for what GW does disappear. Find a new game, love it, show a friend and pass it along.


Stop GW Now @ 2014/04/29 14:52:23


Post by: lord_blackfang


 gorgon wrote:
I can't believe no one's ever thought of boycotting before.


Nice one


Stop GW Now @ 2014/04/29 14:54:25


Post by: hotsauceman1


Yeah!!!!!!!!$& occupy gw. Viva la revolution


Stop GW Now @ 2014/04/29 14:55:29


Post by: Accolade


On a slightly different note, I think that this might be the first time you see a considerable number of people stick with a previous edition.

Other editions, whether considered superior or inferior, had their typical lifespan. I think many people with eschew buying a new core rulebook for the sole reason of not wanting to buy a whole new book so quickly.

I will be interested to see what people do in my area. WM/H seems to be getting bigger and bigger, and I've actually seen some WHFB games these days! Perhaps 40k will become more of an even-tier with those games.

We shall see!


Stop GW Now @ 2014/04/29 15:03:33


Post by: Skinnereal


Don't stop playing, but stop buying.
No-one's forcing you to buy, and if your local games agree to stay with 6th and a range of add-ons, that's all you need to have.

If you factor that Dakkaites are maybe ~2% of the current GW players, a boycott from all of us is going to get ignored.
Add in BOLS and others, that might have an effect, but just Dakka? Nope.


Stop GW Now @ 2014/04/29 15:04:05


Post by: The Shadow


I've said it a bazillion times: a boycott is never going to work, so get it out of your head now.

Why? Because we, on this forum, the people who are aware that GW's prices are insane, aware that GW are just a cash grab company, aware that 40k is a "bad" game, are a very, very small minority of the 40k community. We're negligible. GW make their money from kids, parents of kids, model enthusiasts and badly-informed adults who continue to buy models direct from GW and will continue to do so whether or not GW hike their prices or break the game.

I'll say it again. We're negligible. A boycott wouldn't work. Then take into account the fact that most of us here probably buy most of our wargaming stuff from eBay/Independent Retailers and our boycott would have even less of an effect.

The only thing that's going to make GW change their ways is another Wargaming/Minatures company opening high street stores UK/US-wide and directly competing with them. Anything else won't work.


Stop GW Now @ 2014/04/29 15:05:14


Post by: reds8n


Let's stay polite please people.

Helps no one if all you do is insult other users.

Thank you.


Stop GW Now @ 2014/04/29 15:05:38


Post by: curran12


Are we even 100% sure that it is actually a 7th edition book? I was under the impression that it was mostly just a conglomeration of 6e rules and supplements into one book. or is that out of date?


Stop GW Now @ 1514/11/29 15:07:42


Post by: rexscarlet


so true, and all the Sri Lankan Pro Bloggers hired by GW flood this site and all the others, so wishful thinking on my part.
.


Stop GW Now @ 2014/04/29 15:08:23


Post by: Sigvatr


If you want to boycot GW, just do it. We got 20+ people in our club and got 1 physical rulebook / codex / army book for everyone to have a look at in case they need to. Really keeps the cost for everyone low.


Stop GW Now @ 2014/04/29 15:10:45


Post by: Colpicklejar


Continue to play 6th edition if you care that much. When Dungeons and Dragons made the switch to 4th edition, plenty of people stuck with 3.5. Hell, some people still play 2nd Edition.

40k is no different- GW is not the ultimate arbiter of how you play the game. Talk to people in your local meta.

I'm personally just going to buy a 7th edition rulebook (or 6.5, or whatever) as cheaply as possible.


Stop GW Now @ 2014/04/29 15:11:20


Post by: rexscarlet


 curran12 wrote:
Are we even 100% sure that it is actually a 7th edition book? I was under the impression that it was mostly just a conglomeration of 6e rules and supplements into one book. or is that out of date?

.
The point is GW keeps changing current purchased publications by releasing new purchased publications.
.
And the community keeps taking it.


Stop GW Now @ 2014/04/29 15:12:04


Post by: Sigvatr


 Colpicklejar wrote:
Continue to play 6th edition if you care that much. When Dungeons and Dragons made the switch to 4th edition, plenty of people stuck with 3.5. Hell, some people still play 2nd Edition.


Most people actually started playing Pathfinder...which...essentially is 3.5


Stop GW Now @ 2014/04/29 15:12:11


Post by: Portugal Jones


rexscarlet wrote:
so true, and all the Sri Lankan Pro Bloggers hired by GW flood this site and all the others, so wishful thinking on my part.
.

Protip, kid.

People are allowed to disagree with you.


Stop GW Now @ 2014/04/29 15:12:26


Post by: rexscarlet


 Sigvatr wrote:
If you want to boycot GW, just do it. We got 20+ people in our club and got 1 physical rulebook / codex / army book for everyone to have a look at in case they need to. Really keeps the cost for everyone low.

.
Great idea!


Stop GW Now @ 2014/04/29 15:13:23


Post by: Platuan4th


rexscarlet wrote:
so true, and all the Sri Lankan Pro Bloggers hired by GW flood this site and all the others, so wishful thinking on my part.
.


LOLWUT.


Stop GW Now @ 2014/04/29 15:17:28


Post by: Colpicklejar


 Sigvatr wrote:
 Colpicklejar wrote:
Continue to play 6th edition if you care that much. When Dungeons and Dragons made the switch to 4th edition, plenty of people stuck with 3.5. Hell, some people still play 2nd Edition.


Most people actually started playing Pathfinder...which...essentially is 3.5


Right, another good point. There was a void, and someone filled it. Some people act like GW is going to mess up so badly that suddenly every 40k model in the world will spontaneously combust, rendering us all unable to play.

If every GW was sucked into the Warp tomorrow, the game would continue.


Stop GW Now @ 2014/04/29 16:13:50


Post by: ClockworkZion


 curran12 wrote:
Are we even 100% sure that it is actually a 7th edition book? I was under the impression that it was mostly just a conglomeration of 6e rules and supplements into one book. or is that out of date?

We have no solid evidence in any direction right now. For all we know it's an updated core rulebook not unlike how they patched 3rd edition, only taking it to the logical conclusion of a new book.


Stop GW Now @ 2014/04/29 15:18:52


Post by: kronk


 Platuan4th wrote:
rexscarlet wrote:
so true, and all the Sri Lankan Pro Bloggers hired by GW flood this site and all the others, so wishful thinking on my part.
.


LOLWUT.


I'm scratching my head on that one, too.


Stop GW Now @ 2014/04/29 15:20:35


Post by: rexscarlet


 Platuan4th wrote:
rexscarlet wrote:
so true, and all the Sri Lankan Pro Bloggers hired by GW flood this site and all the others, so wishful thinking on my part.
.


LOLWUT.

.
Oh, you think opinions on blogs are from individuals, me thinks you need a trip to google, there are a ton of companies that will blog "pro" your company, a ton.
Welcome to the new age, to the new age...


Stop GW Now @ 2014/04/29 15:22:24


Post by: curran12


Need more tinfoil for your hat, there?

Seriously, you are at like a 15 when really you need to be at about a 3. You're making an embarrassment of yourself.


Stop GW Now @ 2014/04/29 15:22:39


Post by: kronk


Can you point one out that is using Dakka?

I want to make sure i avoid them.

I liked the Radioactive line, there. Great song! Stupid video, but great song!


Stop GW Now @ 2014/04/29 15:25:23


Post by: Cryonicleech


Another one of these threads?

Boycott GW, by all means. Let everyone know you're boycotting GW, by all means.

But this isn't some "movement" or "rallying cry" for the "40k community". You're not the first person to mention a boycott, and you are most certainly not the last. Does that discredit your stance? No, but reacting to everyone's disbelief and general lack of response as "Pro Sri Lankan Bloggers" shows that you're either clearly unfamiliar with the many attempts to "rally' Dakka with the exact same message you have here or that your troll has reached significant levels.

But by all means, boycott away. GW's definitely driving away many members of the fanbase.


Stop GW Now @ 2014/04/29 15:25:31


Post by: rexscarlet


usually they start out with an Ad Hominem


Stop GW Now @ 2014/04/29 15:32:37


Post by: kronk


Like calling someone that disagrees with a boycott a Sri Lankan Pro Bloggers hired by GW


Stop GW Now @ 2014/04/29 15:35:15


Post by: Commoragh's Fist


A video game costs about as much as the BRB and lasts way less than 2 years typically... I think the BRB at 2 years is a decent entertainment value... Other hobbies make things obsolete it far less time...


Stop GW Now @ 2014/04/29 15:35:39


Post by: Portugal Jones


Not really, and compare it to any other miniature gaming system out there. How many of them have an edition change two years on? (if this really is an edition change - we still have to wait and see).
 kronk wrote:
I liked the Radioactive line, there. Great song! Stupid video, but great song!

It certainly deserved a better class of post than the one it got.
 kronk wrote:
Like calling someone that disagrees with a boycott a Sri Lankan Pro Bloggers hired by GW



Stop GW Now @ 2014/04/29 15:36:52


Post by: ClockworkZion


 kronk wrote:
Can you point one out that is using Dakka?

I want to make sure i avoid them.

I liked the Radioactive line, there. Great song! Stupid video, but great song!

I wish I was being sponsored by GW. At least I wouldn't have to pay for all these rulebooks I keep buying to review.


Stop GW Now @ 2014/04/29 15:37:28


Post by: rexscarlet


No, but reacting to everyone's disbelief and general lack of response as "Pro Sri Lankan Bloggers" shows that you're either clearly unfamiliar with the many attempts to "rally' Dakka with the exact same message you have here or that your troll has reached significant levels..

.
First, I was not Trolling, there are a ton of companies (most are outsourced to India, I was trying to be funny by using Sri Lanka) that can be hired 24/7 to blog "pro" your company, swat-down bad blogs, and bad search results (google them), and I was not accusing anyone that did not agree with me as being one.
.
Second, I blame the Distributors, the FLGS, AND the community for continuing to support a company that constantly sticks them with useless products. (and yes 1e-5e are useless products now)
.
Third, a Boycott will not work, especially if Distributors and FLGS do not follow suit.
.
Fourth, The community cannot agree on what rules to use in a game, let alone get together and agree to do anything about GW's gouging practices.
.
out...


Stop GW Now @ 2014/04/29 15:38:01


Post by: warboss


Don't like it? Stop buying it as you only need one copy of the rules at the table of any given game and it is likely that your opponent will have one. You don't really need to make a dramatic exit from the Nottingham Buyer's Club. GW cares even less than your fellow posters on Dakka about your reasons for the boycott. Not buying though doesn't mean you have to stop playing. I haven't bought anything in years now other than codex books but 40k is still my backup game in case my primary one I want to play falls through.


Stop GW Now @ 2014/04/29 15:38:26


Post by: SagesStone


 Platuan4th wrote:
rexscarlet wrote:
so true, and all the Sri Lankan Pro Bloggers hired by GW flood this site and all the others, so wishful thinking on my part.
.


█▄▄ ███ █▄▄ █▄█▄█ █▄█ ▀█▀


There we go.

I have no idea, is this some sort of pro-GW conspiracy thing?


Stop GW Now @ 2014/04/29 15:38:47


Post by: curran12


Uh yes you did.

Lying is not a good way to warm people to your cause. Yeesh. And the gaps in your logic are pretty amazing.


Stop GW Now @ 2014/04/29 15:40:02


Post by: kronk


Thanks for not dropping the Mic! Mighty friendly of you!

I hope the glut of e-book mini publications stop. I picked up Bel A'Kor and Cypher because they're cool dudes, but refuse to buy any more. No support from me!

Unless they do a Black Templar character. Or an Imperial Fist. Or an Orc.

But I stop at those! And no LE books, either!

Unless it's an army I play. Or casually like.


Stop GW Now @ 2014/04/29 15:43:59


Post by: Cryonicleech


rexscarlet wrote:
No, but reacting to everyone's disbelief and general lack of response as "Pro Sri Lankan Bloggers" shows that you're either clearly unfamiliar with the many attempts to "rally' Dakka with the exact same message you have here or that your troll has reached significant levels..

.
First, I was not Trolling, there are a ton of companies (most are outsourced to India, I was trying to be funny by using Sri Lanka) that can be hired 24/7 to blog "pro" your company, swat-down bad blogs, and bad search results (google them), and I was not accusing anyone that did not agree with me as being one.
.
Second, I blame the Distributors, the FLGS, AND the community for continuing to support a company that constantly sticks them with useless products. (and yes 1e-5e are useless products now)
.
Third, a Boycott will not work, especially if Distributors and FLGS do not follow suit.
.
Fourth, The community cannot agree on what rules to use in a game, let alone get together and agree to do anything about GW's gouging practices.
.
out...


So what's the point of this entire thread? Unless the entire point was "look at me, I'm boycotting GW", which it clearly wasn't, considering how it was clearly addressed to the community...


Stop GW Now @ 2014/04/29 15:47:21


Post by: ClockworkZion


 kronk wrote:
Thanks for not dropping the Mic! Mighty friendly of you!

I hope the glut of e-book mini publications stop. I picked up Bel A'Kor and Cypher because they're cool dudes, but refuse to buy any more. No support from me!

Unless they do a Black Templar character. Or an Imperial Fist. Or an Orc.

But I stop at those! And no LE books, either!

Unless it's an army I play. Or casually like.

And that's basically the kind of thinking that ends with the boycotts failing.

Actually I haven't seen a Dataslate since the Digital Editions Facebook was taken down.


Stop GW Now @ 2014/04/29 15:51:20


Post by: PhantomViper




And what is with all the "." between lines? Are you typing your posts in Vi or something?


Stop GW Now @ 2014/04/29 15:56:09


Post by: rexscarlet


 kronk wrote:
Thanks for not dropping the Mic! Mighty friendly of you!

I hope the glut of e-book mini publications stop. I picked up Bel A'Kor and Cypher because they're cool dudes, but refuse to buy any more. No support from me!

Unless they do a Black Templar character. Or an Imperial Fist. Or an Orc.

But I stop at those! And no LE books, either!

Unless it's an army I play. Or casually like.


My purchases are always calculated, I am considering buying a RV, or two vacation Condos at the moment (not timeshares), and I will probably overthink and over calculate both, and buy neither (and just take four 5k vacations a year, for 20 years).
.
I am the same with Hobby purchases, I try to shop smart (shop S-Mart).
.
I do not like the eBook format, because they are set up for a smart device, then to put them on pdf for my laptop, I have to convert them, etc. and they are still set up with the small screen format/look which is a pain to scroll through, look at, etc. But when I want to read on the go they work great compared to a two pound book. (alternatively, buying the book, get a discount or bundle for the eBook would be nice)
.
In my perfect world GW would team-up with Army-builder or Battle-scribe.
.
Seems trips, and regular plastic non-gaming models are going to win out over miniature gaming.


Stop GW Now @ 2014/04/29 16:12:30


Post by: wufai


rexscarlet wrote:
No, but reacting to everyone's disbelief and general lack of response as "Pro Sri Lankan Bloggers" shows that you're either clearly unfamiliar with the many attempts to "rally' Dakka with the exact same message you have here or that your troll has reached significant levels..

.
First, I was not Trolling, there are a ton of companies (most are outsourced to India, I was trying to be funny by using Sri Lanka) that can be hired 24/7 to blog "pro" your company, swat-down bad blogs, and bad search results (google them), and I was not accusing anyone that did not agree with me as being one.
.
Second, I blame the Distributors, the FLGS, AND the community for continuing to support a company that constantly sticks them with useless products. (and yes 1e-5e are useless products now)
.
Third, a Boycott will not work, especially if Distributors and FLGS do not follow suit.
.
Fourth, The community cannot agree on what rules to use in a game, let alone get together and agree to do anything about GW's gouging practices.
.
out...


Let me tell you why your reasoning and resolution will not appeal to the audience you are targeting at.

The distributor and FLGS will continue to buy/sell GW products because it makes them money! Are you paying distributor and FLGS for their loss sales? Money speaks much louder than words. How about I tell you to boycout GW by stop earning an income for 6 months? Besides, if 1 FLGS doesn't sell GW, the other FLGS that sells will earn more money.

And why does GW product still help FLGS make money? because the gamers buys it! Say all the bad things you want about GW, it still appeals to people who enjoy the gaming/painting/collecting aspect of it. Just becuase you don't like it don't force it on others please. Although I agree paying $300CAD for a 6th collector edition that will soon be obsilete sucks, there are still those that support these type to actions (I don't FYI, but I'm sure some do).

So how are you going to turn this around? The quick answer is you can't, the GW customer base is very diverse. The only real action you can do is your own action. You can stop spending any additional money to GW, you as a gamer can further melt all your GW models (don't ebay, cause that's just supporting GW with more player base) and refuse ever to play another GW game. You are not alone as evident with the 25% drop in GW share prices. Let the gamers and market choose the fate of GW, not forcing them from their enjoyment of a hobby.

Personally I don't care anymore about the life/death of GW and 40K. I just enjoy the current models I own and refuse to buy new models even it is benefits my army in some way. I will buy the new rulebook (not collector edition of course) IF the communicty and FLGS thinks it is a improvement in enjoyment of the game. Otherwise I will sit this one out and wait until GW produce a product that is worth my money.


Stop GW Now @ 2014/04/29 16:16:13


Post by: Arbiter


I think you have a lot of anger to GW, relax take a cruise and play MTG on a windy day.

Your friend a Sri Lankan GW employee.


Stop GW Now @ 2014/04/29 16:19:34


Post by: ClockworkZion


 Arbiter wrote:
I think you have a lot of anger to GW, relax take a cruise and play MTG on a windy day.

Your friend a Sri Lankan GW employee.

That cracked me up. Have an exalt and a box of Internets.


Stop GW Now @ 2014/04/29 16:26:27


Post by: gorgon


 kronk wrote:
Thanks for not dropping the Mic! Mighty friendly of you!

I hope the glut of e-book mini publications stop. I picked up Bel A'Kor and Cypher because they're cool dudes, but refuse to buy any more. No support from me!

Unless they do a Black Templar character. Or an Imperial Fist. Or an Orc.

But I stop at those! And no LE books, either!

Unless it's an army I play. Or casually like.


This post contains great wisdom.


Stop GW Now @ 2014/04/29 16:45:06


Post by: poda_t


Guess what. I've boycotted GW for a few years now. Haven't bought any products from them direct, only second-hand older stuff or third party. Guess what it did. Nothing. Nothing is making you buy the new GW rules, only your sense of obligation. This trashy GW business policy has been on the go since the early 2000's, so we've had plenty of time to go elsewhere and many of us have. Use the search function and have a look at all the pissy-pants threads that have been started for whinging at GW. The result is that nobody really cares, and the bans and boycots do nothing.

Adendum:

I recognize GW has gakky business policies, but...really? If you are getting uppetty about GW's malconduct, then, whoa there kid, you really need to get up to speed with the rest of the trash that's happening in the world and focus on that.


Stop GW Now @ 2014/04/29 16:45:06


Post by: Farseer Faenyin


I dunno, us Americans don't have much experience boycotting British products....


Stop GW Now @ 2014/04/29 16:48:16


Post by: poda_t


 Farseer Faenyin wrote:
I dunno, us Americans don't have much experience boycotting British products....


This comment has been rescinded for irrelevance to thread.


Stop GW Now @ 2014/04/29 16:50:35


Post by: easysauce


GW "fans" OMGURD it takes sooooo long for new rules to be released this sucks

GW *realeases rules at epic pace*

gw "fans" OMGURRRRD tooo fast I want my stuff to be valid for 5+ years

gw *facepalm*


Stop GW Now @ 2014/04/29 18:00:20


Post by: blooddave


LOTS of other wargames to play out there. In many of them you can even use the GW minis you already own. Some of them even have the rules for a free download.

GW does equal wargaming. The wargaming world is much bigger than just GW.

I played 10+ miniature wargames at Kingdom Con last weekend, and not one of them was from GW.


Stop GW Now @ 2014/04/29 18:10:10


Post by: Byte


Boycott GW, ermmm no thanks.

Lets boycott the LA Clippers! They have some real issues with their leadership! Wait, he wouldn't notice. Kinda like GW.


Stop GW Now @ 2014/04/29 18:12:53


Post by: DarkTraveler777


Commoragh's Fist wrote:
A video game costs about as much as the BRB and lasts way less than 2 years typically... I think the BRB at 2 years is a decent entertainment value... Other hobbies make things obsolete it far less time...


Bad analogy. If you want to make this analogy the BRB is more equivalent with a gaming console rather than a specific video game. Game consoles have a lifespan of what? 4-6 years typically? By lifespan I mean how long the company publishes games and supports the console. 40k editions have a lifespan of about 4-5 years.

If Sony announced plans for PS5 next year, would the PS4 been seen as a good value when it only had a 2 year life?



Stop GW Now @ 2014/04/29 18:14:48


Post by: Grimtuff


 easysauce wrote:
GW "fans" OMGURD it takes sooooo long for new rules to be released this sucks

GW *realeases rules at epic pace*

gw "fans" OMGURRRRD tooo fast I want my stuff to be valid for 5+ years

gw *facepalm*


Well, feth me sideways. I never knew that releasing a new edition and adding supplements were the same thing. Thanks for that clarification....




Stop GW Now @ 2014/04/29 18:16:11


Post by: kronk


 DarkTraveler777 wrote:
Commoragh's Fist wrote:
A video game costs about as much as the BRB and lasts way less than 2 years typically... I think the BRB at 2 years is a decent entertainment value... Other hobbies make things obsolete it far less time...


Bad analogy. If you want to make this analogy the BRB is more equivalent with a gaming console rather than a specific video game. Game consoles have a lifespan of what? 4-6 years typically? By lifespan I mean how long the company publishes games and supports the console. 40k editions have a lifespan of about 4-5 years.

If Sony announced plans for PS5 next year, would the PS4 been seen as a good value when it only had a 2 year life?



I think you're backwards. The models are the gaming console. They're good for a number of rule books (video games). The glue is like the controller, connecting the two. Your opponent is like your mom, telling you to turn the damn thing off and do the dishes. And the table is like that one chick you knew in college or something.


Stop GW Now @ 2014/04/29 18:16:56


Post by: Gentleman_Jellyfish


 easysauce wrote:
GW "fans" OMGURD it takes sooooo long for new rules to be released this sucks

GW *realeases rules at epic pace*

gw "fans" OMGURRRRD tooo fast I want my stuff to be valid for 5+ years

gw *facepalm*


Yet somehow WM/H manages to both add new rules AND not invalidate old.


Stop GW Now @ 2014/04/29 18:21:48


Post by: Wilytank


 kronk wrote:
And the table is like that one chick you knew in college or something.


So it's not uncommon for her to have dice thrown at her. Like making it rain but with d6s.

It's also not uncommon for her to have three or more spear chukkas on her....okay that was terrible.


Stop GW Now @ 2014/04/29 18:25:34


Post by: poda_t


the problem with the ruelbook expense is that you have to buy the fluff. Eventually you run into enough instances of blood angels and necrons "pounding it" that the fluff becomes completely pointless. You're then paying double for added "content". Compare against other games that release rulebooks without all the extra fur.


Stop GW Now @ 2014/04/29 18:25:58


Post by: easysauce


Im very under impressed by WM/H ruleset to be frank... more so with the lack of variaty and the same feel to 90% of the factions armies all seeming like the look and play the same.

look in their forum and notice that before any hobby sections got added, they get their "YMDC" sections, which are just as ambiguous as the 40k YMDC...

The "old" rules have not been invalidated yet... and im pretty sure the 6.5 will not invalidate 6... you will just have to print off a buttload of FAQ's + errata to update your 6 to 6.5...

the sky is not falling, this is actually the best we have had it... FFS we will have every codex in the current edition for the first time ever... its awesome... I for one am actually looking forward to GW releaseing an update, as its probably just going to be the equivelent of an extensive FAQ which is much needed, but it makes sense to leave it this long because they need to get data from how all the codexes have been playing against each other.


People on this site bash GW for no rules updates, then when GW overhauls the rules, they bash them anyways...

cant win.


Stop GW Now @ 2014/04/29 18:26:07


Post by: Samurai_Eduh


rexscarlet wrote:
 Platuan4th wrote:
rexscarlet wrote:
so true, and all the Sri Lankan Pro Bloggers hired by GW flood this site and all the others, so wishful thinking on my part.
.


LOLWUT.

.
Oh, you think opinions on blogs are from individuals, me thinks you need a trip to google, there are a ton of companies that will blog "pro" your company, a ton.
Welcome to the new age, to the new age...


You obviously know nothing about the company you are trying to boycott. GW would never hire "pro bloggers" because to them the internet barely exists and isn't worthy of thier attention.

That having been said, I'm really not mad at all about a new edition and will continue to buy at my same pace.

Good luck with your boycott though, you'll be "The One" to unite the dakka community behind you this time. I can feel it.


Stop GW Now @ 2014/04/29 18:26:59


Post by: ClockworkZion


Thinking of the faster release schedule I took a look at the amount of stuff released out of curiousity (I was mostly interested in the number of codexes released) in comparison to 5th:
 ClockworkZion wrote:
Just for fun I wanted to look at a comparison of how much stuff was released for 6th versus 5th:

6th:
9 Full Codexes
4 "Mini-dexes"
6 Codex Supplements
5 Expansions

5th Edition:
9 Codexes (Counting the Sisters WD Codex)
4 Expansions

So just on a "how much stuff released" perspective you could argue that 6th isn't leaving too soon. And it's interesting that in 2 years we got the same number of codexes in 6th that we got in 4-5 years with 5th. I wonder if GW is basing the launch of a new edition on the amount of stuff they've released and not the amount of time between the editions.

On a timeline though 2 years still really feels short regardless of how much stuff came out, but I don't think this edition has been short changed on content at least.


Stop GW Now @ 2014/04/29 18:31:09


Post by: Pacific


There is no need to boycott, market forces will decide that it you continue sell a product at too high a relative price then people will stop buying it. In fact, that has continued to be the case over recent years. To the OP, take a look at some of the subforums on Dakka - there are lots of high quality wargames out there, many of which are more deserving of your time, effort and money.

Personally, taking a pragmatic (and perhaps selfish) view, I hope GW continues exactly as they are. Retreating from the internet, cutting down places to play and support, rising prices for armies and barrier to entry - it's all helping other, smaller companies to flourish and grow as they have never done before. I can't remember a time when there were so many high quality rules and miniature producers on the scene, and the internet has been just such a wonderful tool for helping them connect.

Ultimately, I think it's good for the industry (of sci-fi/fantasy wargames at least) not to have one massive company, monopolising the industry and only providing one 'flavour' of the different types of wargaming.

Like I said though, this is a bit of a selfish position to take. I very rarely play GW games now, but a lot of people still do. For them, I wish GW would get its arse into gear and start giving some care to the way the rules for their games function, beyond just being used as an opportunity to fleece the target demographic as much as possible before they hit 14 and lose interest. That's the way it seems in the current situation at least.


Stop GW Now @ 2014/04/29 18:33:25


Post by: Grimtuff


 easysauce wrote:

look in their forum and notice that before any hobby sections got added, they get their "YMDC" sections, which are just as ambiguous as the 40k YMDC...


Sorry, what?

As of right now, 32114 threads in 40k YMDC, 519 in WM/H YMDC.

So, yeah....


Stop GW Now @ 2014/04/29 18:34:51


Post by: ClockworkZion


 Grimtuff wrote:
 easysauce wrote:

look in their forum and notice that before any hobby sections got added, they get their "YMDC" sections, which are just as ambiguous as the 40k YMDC...


Sorry, what?

As of right now, 32114 threads in 40k YMDC, 519 in WM/H YMDC.

So, yeah....

There is also a PP forum to just ask/search for answers on too, making the Dakka one less needed overall too.


Stop GW Now @ 2014/04/29 18:35:02


Post by: Gentleman_Jellyfish


 easysauce wrote:
look in their forum and notice that before any hobby sections got added, they get their "YMDC" sections, which are just as ambiguous as the 40k YMDC...


The difference being is the the YMDC section already has an official equivalent http://privateerpressforums.com/forumdisplay.php?39-WARMACHINE-amp-HORDES-Rules-Questions.

Also the largest post on that sections front page is 27 posts, compare that to the 40k YMDC and well.... http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/forums/show/15.page


 easysauce wrote:
Im very under impressed by WM/H ruleset to be frank... more so with the lack of variaty and the same feel to 90% of the factions armies all seeming like the look and play the same.


The same way that all 40k factions just shoot guns and roll dice.


Stop GW Now @ 2014/04/29 18:37:12


Post by: timetowaste85


I've boycotted GW models for a while now-I doubt they've noticed. Find a better game-there are a lot out there. Lots of games, and lots of better ones.


Stop GW Now @ 2014/04/29 18:42:10


Post by: Big P


I aint bought a GW game since... 1996 I think.

I never understand people moaning at GWs core business model. That's what they do.

Dont like it, play something else and get others involved. That will do more to turn GWs head than raging on the tinernet.

GW is not wargaming, just one niche of it.


Stop GW Now @ 2014/04/29 18:48:13


Post by: liquidjoshi


So this is GW complaint thread number... what, nine? Ten? It's almost like we have some sort of problem.


Stop GW Now @ 2014/04/29 18:49:31


Post by: infinite_array


Big P wrote:
I aint bought a GW game since... 1996 I think.

I never understand people moaning at GWs core business model. That's what they do.

Dont like it, play something else and get others involved. That will do more to turn GWs head than raging on the tinernet.

GW is not wargaming, just one niche of it.

Unfortunately, for a lot of people GW is wargaming.


Stop GW Now @ 2014/04/29 18:51:33


Post by: easysauce


 Grimtuff wrote:
 easysauce wrote:

look in their forum and notice that before any hobby sections got added, they get their "YMDC" sections, which are just as ambiguous as the 40k YMDC...


Sorry, what?

As of right now, 32114 threads in 40k YMDC, 519 in WM/H YMDC.

So, yeah....


considering that people play 40k at about a 100-1 ratio for wmh... yeah.. that makes total sense...

scale man.... scale...

besides if WMH is such a perfect ruleset, why do they need a FAQ at all then?

ALso, its a lot easier to have a more streamlined ruleset when you have 1/10 of the content, and most of your armies are 90% the same...


Stop GW Now @ 2014/04/29 18:54:56


Post by: Grimtuff


 easysauce wrote:
 Grimtuff wrote:
 easysauce wrote:

look in their forum and notice that before any hobby sections got added, they get their "YMDC" sections, which are just as ambiguous as the 40k YMDC...


Sorry, what?

As of right now, 32114 threads in 40k YMDC, 519 in WM/H YMDC.

So, yeah....


considering that people play 40k at about a 100-1 ratio for wmh... yeah.. that makes total sense...

scale man.... scale...

besides if WMH is such a perfect ruleset, why do they need a FAQ at all then?

ALso, its a lot easier to have a more streamlined ruleset when you have 1/10 of the content, and most of your armies are 90% the same...




Really? Really? I can't even....


Stop GW Now @ 2014/04/29 18:56:26


Post by: Price


"I hate sixth!! Why won't GW fix the rules or release a new, more balanced set!?"

"New rule book? Feth you GW!! FETH YOU!!"

-_-'


Stop GW Now @ 2014/04/29 18:59:14


Post by: Palindrome


 The Shadow wrote:
We're negligible.


No, we're not. We are a small minority of 40k players, that is undoubtedly true but that doesn't mean that we are not a a good barometer for the mood of the wargaming public. I would argue that a lot of GW's problems stem from thinking that people who complain about their products are 'negligible' and look what state they are in now.

Boycotting won't work because not enough people will take part and people don't stick to them anyway. Moving onto pastures new until GW gets it's act together and encouraging others to do the same is a far more effective tactic, not least because you will still be able to wargame. Just this week I converted someone who used to be a GW stalwart simply by recommending that they take a look at Infinity, apparently 40k is now dead to him.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Pacific wrote:

Personally, taking a pragmatic (and perhaps selfish) view, I hope GW continues exactly as they are. Retreating from the internet, cutting down places to play and support, rising prices for armies and barrier to entry - it's all helping other, smaller companies to flourish and grow as they have never done before. I can't remember a time when there were so many high quality rules and miniature producers on the scene, and the internet has been just such a wonderful tool for helping them connect.


In the short to medium term I agree but I don't actually want GW to die, just reform itself to something that actually makes good games like it used to back in the days of yore. That's only likely to happen if its crippled first and that's at least as likely to end badly for GW and wargamers.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Price wrote:
"I hate sixth!! Why won't GW fix the rules or release a new, more balanced set!?"

"New rule book? Feth you GW!! FETH YOU!!"

-_-'


Well a new rulebook that just titivates 6th and doesn't actually fix any of its flaws isn't going to please anybody. A thoroughly playtested and meticulously designed ruleset would save 40k while another half arsed rehash of 3rd ed will just continue the decline. Care to place a bet on what GW will be releasing this summer?


Stop GW Now @ 2014/04/29 19:10:20


Post by: MajorTom11


Is it really so hard to understand BOTH why GW would do something a certain way and why a lot of fans (but not all) would be unhappy with this?

Bottom line I think, is if the rules are tighter and make for a better game, with more balance, then most of us would be happy to pony up for a new box or book. Is that not fair to say? If however this is really just 6.5, which is in essence double-dipping by charging again for all the extra rules they already put out that people have paid for while adding minimal overall changes... then ya I can get why it could be seen as an extremely cynical move.

It's not silly to think that enough people having a boycott would have an impact. It's not silly to think getting a boycott of that scale together is a tall order indeed. It's messy because ultimately SOME people want GW to do this, they want the faster release pace and the rules back in WD, they want the big games and the ability to buy different lines of models and use them with their existing armies... and a lot of us want the game to get back to balance and competitive play, and to not completely flush the fluff down the toilet when it comes to the table.

It is ultimately the same as it will always be... if you like it, keep buying, if you don't, stop buying. Or keep buying and use an older rule-set and update with your own house-rules.

I dunno, if I was a really big 40k player who was at his wits end with things, but had effort and experience to put in, I would probably try to form some kind of comittee to take a more well regarded rule-set (4th or 5th) and see if we could create DIY updates focused 100% on balance and tournament play, and buy the models but forget the rules from them... but that's just me.


Stop GW Now @ 2014/04/29 19:13:01


Post by: DarkTraveler777


 kronk wrote:
 DarkTraveler777 wrote:
Commoragh's Fist wrote:
A video game costs about as much as the BRB and lasts way less than 2 years typically... I think the BRB at 2 years is a decent entertainment value... Other hobbies make things obsolete it far less time...


Bad analogy. If you want to make this analogy the BRB is more equivalent with a gaming console rather than a specific video game. Game consoles have a lifespan of what? 4-6 years typically? By lifespan I mean how long the company publishes games and supports the console. 40k editions have a lifespan of about 4-5 years.

If Sony announced plans for PS5 next year, would the PS4 been seen as a good value when it only had a 2 year life?



I think you're backwards. The models are the gaming console. They're good for a number of rule books (video games). The glue is like the controller, connecting the two. Your opponent is like your mom, telling you to turn the damn thing off and do the dishes. And the table is like that one chick you knew in college or something.


I see. Since you aren't contributing anything worthwhile how about you regale us with another story of female conquest, Kronk? Oh! Are we not in OT forum? My bad.


Stop GW Now @ 2014/04/29 19:27:03


Post by: Dullspork


rexscarlet wrote:

.
Sticking FLGS and/or Distributors with dead stock with NO buyback program. (fyi, Walmart does not own one product in the entire store, if magazines do not sell, the magazine company takes them back, that goes for the entire contents of the store. Other retailers have similar buyback programs in place, it is common practice in retail)


It's so common that GW does have one. They're one of the only publishers in the industry that has one.


Stop GW Now @ 2014/04/29 19:29:58


Post by: kronk


 DarkTraveler777 wrote:
 kronk wrote:
 DarkTraveler777 wrote:
Commoragh's Fist wrote:
A video game costs about as much as the BRB and lasts way less than 2 years typically... I think the BRB at 2 years is a decent entertainment value... Other hobbies make things obsolete it far less time...


Bad analogy. If you want to make this analogy the BRB is more equivalent with a gaming console rather than a specific video game. Game consoles have a lifespan of what? 4-6 years typically? By lifespan I mean how long the company publishes games and supports the console. 40k editions have a lifespan of about 4-5 years.

If Sony announced plans for PS5 next year, would the PS4 been seen as a good value when it only had a 2 year life?



I think you're backwards. The models are the gaming console. They're good for a number of rule books (video games). The glue is like the controller, connecting the two. Your opponent is like your mom, telling you to turn the damn thing off and do the dishes. And the table is like that one chick you knew in college or something.


I see. Since you aren't contributing anything worthwhile how about you regale us with another story of female conquest, Kronk? Oh! Are we not in OT forum? My bad.


If you truly saw, you'd understand that your analogy was a poor one. And, frankly, that goes for Commoragh's Fist, too.

2 years is too soon for a new Edition; however, for those that hate the edition, it's not soon enough. Can't please everyone.


Stop GW Now @ 2014/04/29 20:04:41


Post by: Shotgun


 easysauce wrote:
the sky is not falling, this is actually the best we have had it... FFS we will have every codex in the current edition for the first time ever... its awesome... I for one am actually looking forward to GW releaseing an update, as its probably just going to be the equivelent of an extensive FAQ which is much needed, but it makes sense to leave it this long because they need to get data from how all the codexes have been playing against each other.


People on this site bash GW for no rules updates, then when GW overhauls the rules, they bash them anyways...

cant win.


Let's boil this "Good Thing" down.

1. Let's say this is 6.5 and like you said "the equivelent of an extensive FAQ". So extensive that they have to reissue the book to put it all in.

When in the history of GW has the need for an FAQ been do extensive that the best thing to do is to pull all product off the shelves and recharge people for the same rules, only "fixed" this time? All the old FAQ's, that one would hope would be implemented into this 6.5, are gone from the official website. If this is 6.5, it would appear that the only way to obtain this "extensive FAQ" is to shell out for what was previously free.

2. Let's say this is 7.0. If it is 7.0, it is either a GW increase in major rules rewrites off of the previous established schedule, or a subtle recognition that 6.0 had some major problems with it. And while, yes you can play any of the older versions, history has shown at least for GW, the community as a whole advances to the new system...regardless of any fact of it being improved from prevous versions.

I agree that a GW boycot isn't something to seriously consider, unless it is done on a personal consumer level. I seriously question any logic where this version is seen as a "good thing". It is either charging for items that were previously released freely to the community, or its a blatent money grab preying on the premise that the community will gobble it up regardless of cost or implication. I have seen nothing out of GW in the last 6months to a year that would leave me with a warm fuzzy that "7th" would be better than "6th". I see several indications that this is 6.5 and that charging for the "patch" is the new GW norm.

They seem to be really comfortable with pushing out product that the community sees as substandard only to push out a $5 fix in the immediate weeks afterwards.


Stop GW Now @ 2014/04/29 20:20:57


Post by: DarkTraveler777


 kronk wrote:
Spoiler:
 DarkTraveler777 wrote:
 kronk wrote:
 DarkTraveler777 wrote:
Commoragh's Fist wrote:
A video game costs about as much as the BRB and lasts way less than 2 years typically... I think the BRB at 2 years is a decent entertainment value... Other hobbies make things obsolete it far less time...


Bad analogy. If you want to make this analogy the BRB is more equivalent with a gaming console rather than a specific video game. Game consoles have a lifespan of what? 4-6 years typically? By lifespan I mean how long the company publishes games and supports the console. 40k editions have a lifespan of about 4-5 years.

If Sony announced plans for PS5 next year, would the PS4 been seen as a good value when it only had a 2 year life?



I think you're backwards. The models are the gaming console. They're good for a number of rule books (video games). The glue is like the controller, connecting the two. Your opponent is like your mom, telling you to turn the damn thing off and do the dishes. And the table is like that one chick you knew in college or something.


I see. Since you aren't contributing anything worthwhile how about you regale us with another story of female conquest, Kronk? Oh! Are we not in OT forum? My bad.


If you truly saw, you'd understand that your analogy was a poor one. And, frankly, that goes for Commoragh's Fist, too.

2 years is too soon for a new Edition; however, for those that hate the edition, it's not soon enough. Can't please everyone
.


If you re-read my post to Commoragh's Fist I was modifying his analogy not advocating that the Game Console = Game Edition is the best analogy out there. Also, how would a video game be equivalent to a game edition as both you and he suggested? Video games are software played on a console. So if we use this analogy wouldn't miniatures essentially act as the software that requires the use of a game edition to be used in said game? Changing out an edition often alters how models are used through changes in rules interactions for those models. Just like buying an Xbox 360 largely prevents you from playing Xbox games(I know there are exceptions to the backwards compatibility of games and consoles but this is an example). This is further compounded by changes in codices which are themselves connected to a particular edition. So, it does seem apt that a game console is closer to a game edition than to set of miniatures, no?

Which gets back to the original point that, no, the entertainment value of a 2-year edition is not much of a deal, according to Commoragh's Fist, if people were expecting to get 4-5 years of entertainment out of the same edition.




Stop GW Now @ 2014/04/29 20:30:18


Post by: wuestenfux


Well, a GW boycott already became reality here. Players here head over to WM/H for a more balanced and cheaper game.


Stop GW Now @ 2014/04/29 22:04:40


Post by: kronk


If you reread my last, non-snarky post, you'll see that I agree that 2 years is too soon, and that I don't agree with either you or Commoragh's Fist comparisons to vidja games.

And when i reread the first post in this thread, it's still funny!

Spoiler:

 DarkTraveler777 wrote:
 kronk wrote:
[spoiler]
 DarkTraveler777 wrote:
 kronk wrote:
 DarkTraveler777 wrote:
Commoragh's Fist wrote:
A video game costs about as much as the BRB and lasts way less than 2 years typically... I think the BRB at 2 years is a decent entertainment value... Other hobbies make things obsolete it far less time...


Bad analogy. If you want to make this analogy the BRB is more equivalent with a gaming console rather than a specific video game. Game consoles have a lifespan of what? 4-6 years typically? By lifespan I mean how long the company publishes games and supports the console. 40k editions have a lifespan of about 4-5 years.

If Sony announced plans for PS5 next year, would the PS4 been seen as a good value when it only had a 2 year life?



I think you're backwards. The models are the gaming console. They're good for a number of rule books (video games). The glue is like the controller, connecting the two. Your opponent is like your mom, telling you to turn the damn thing off and do the dishes. And the table is like that one chick you knew in college or something.


I see. Since you aren't contributing anything worthwhile how about you regale us with another story of female conquest, Kronk? Oh! Are we not in OT forum? My bad.


If you truly saw, you'd understand that your analogy was a poor one. And, frankly, that goes for Commoragh's Fist, too.

2 years is too soon for a new Edition; however, for those that hate the edition, it's not soon enough. Can't please everyone.


If you re-read my post to Commoragh's Fist I was modifying his analogy not advocating that the Game Console = Game Edition is the best analogy out there. Also, how would a video game be equivalent to a game edition as both you and he suggested? Video games are software played on a console. So if we use this analogy wouldn't miniatures essentially act as the software that requires the use of a game edition to be used in said game? Changing out an edition often alters how models are used through changes in rules interactions for those models. Just like buying an Xbox 360 largely prevents you from playing Xbox games(I know there are exceptions to the backwards compatibility of games and consoles but this is an example). This is further compounded by changes in codices which are themselves connected to a particular edition. So, it does seem apt that a game console is closer to a game edition than to set of miniatures, no?

Which gets back to the original point that, no, the entertainment value of a 2-year edition is not much of a deal, according to Commoragh's Fist, if people were expecting to get 4-5 years of entertainment out of the same edition.



Automatically Appended Next Post:
 wuestenfux wrote:
Well, a GW boycott already became reality here. Players here head over to WM/H for a more balanced and cheaper game.


That's a shame, but I can't blame anyone for finding something they enjoy.


Stop GW Now @ 2014/04/29 20:45:09


Post by: Talizvar


Okay, like in my sig. I think I found my bayonet but not sure where to stick the pointy end.

I have a fine selection of rules from 2nd edition to 6th now.

Will wait and see if we get a genuine improvement or just an all in one book money grab.

The cool thing is as some of the new models "suck" I just buy the now OOP models various fine people are willing to flog on ebay or it's equivalents.

They have pretty much devoted their focus to sell product (no tournaments worth noting) so what we choose to use in place of, is up to us.

There are many options out there to play and not give GW a dime so if they are not honest about furthering the game it is an easy decision.


Stop GW Now @ 2014/04/29 21:25:23


Post by: Maddermax


 easysauce wrote:
 Grimtuff wrote:
 easysauce wrote:

look in their forum and notice that before any hobby sections got added, they get their "YMDC" sections, which are just as ambiguous as the 40k YMDC...


Sorry, what?

As of right now, 32114 threads in 40k YMDC, 519 in WM/H YMDC.

So, yeah....


considering that people play 40k at about a 100-1 ratio for wmh... yeah.. that makes total sense...

scale man.... scale...

besides if WMH is such a perfect ruleset, why do they need a FAQ at all then?

ALso, its a lot easier to have a more streamlined ruleset when you have 1/10 of the content, and most of your armies are 90% the same...


I'm not going to debate the pros and cons of warmachine vs warhammer as games, they're different games with different focuses, but this is one of the dumbest and most uniformed things I've read on the forums in a while.

Firstly, on the rules front the biggest difference is that there is no question that does not have an answer - every question will get officially answered by the devs if need be. Meanwhile, in 40k it seems like there's a multi-page debate about everything but the most basic things, multiple interpretations of so many rules and sloppy RAW that leads to arguing RAI and HIWPI. You can find a half dozen unanswerable questions in a minute on 40k YMDC, but there's not a single unanswerable question for WM/H. I used to be a rules forum guy back in 4th and 5th, arguing the nitty gritty details and trying to interpret undefined terms and so on, so switching to warmachine where rules questions are basically "here's the answer" took a bit of getting used to.

Secondly, Implying that "there's an FAQ therefore warmachine's rules are just as bad" is extrodinarily petty, and shows you're more interested in throwing crap around than debating.

And lastly, all the factions are the same? Have you even played the game? Christ, it's like saying tyranids and tau are the same because they both have monstrous creatures and infantry. Meanwhile, fully half of 40k is space Marines in various close-but-not-exactly-the-same configurations.

40k is not a terrible game, it has real merits in a lot of respects that can be argued for. However this sort of uninformed argument about another game does not help you at all.


Stop GW Now @ 2014/04/29 22:33:31


Post by: Grot 6


 The Shadow wrote:
I've said it a bazillion times: a boycott is never going to work, so get it out of your head now.

Why? Because we, on this forum, the people who are aware that GW's prices are insane, aware that GW are just a cash grab company, aware that 40k is a "bad" game, are a very, very small minority of the 40k community. We're negligible. GW make their money from kids, parents of kids, model enthusiasts and badly-informed adults who continue to buy models direct from GW and will continue to do so whether or not GW hike their prices or break the game.

I'll say it again. We're negligible. A boycott wouldn't work. Then take into account the fact that most of us here probably buy most of our wargaming stuff from eBay/Independent Retailers and our boycott would have even less of an effect.

The only thing that's going to make GW change their ways is another Wargaming/Minatures company opening high street stores UK/US-wide and directly competing with them. Anything else won't work.


This is incorrect.

The boycott is already there, or you wouldn't see such a drastic shift in the game that you have with this latest round of gak. Combine that with over 20 or so tables at local areas deflating to the couple that you see, or the 6+ games being played going to the 1, while everyone else moves on to other stuff.

Models are not being bought in as much or as many numbers as they once were, GW's own numbers already speak to that misinformation by the corporate mouth breathers.

local scenes are drying up, and other things are taking their places, regardless of the hyperbole.


Stop GW Now @ 2014/04/30 04:20:43


Post by: Vertrucio


The game is dying, regardless of whether there's an organized effort to boycott it.

The best thing to do isn't to make it a negative and angry ordeal to leave GW. Instead, find other games you and your friends like, bring those new games to game night and demo them to your friends.

This is pretty much how Warmachine has taken over at our store, and now X-Wing and some other games are also filling the gap like miniature based board games, and more.

You make it a positive experience to play new games, and all the while GW themselves are making their own game a negative experience, people will naturally gravitate towards the positive experiences over time.

Warmachine and other newer games dominate the tables and sales at my store every night now. We did this by just playing it often, every game night, showing off the game, the models, and us just having fun.

Sure, there are some who still buy and play GW, but that's okay so long as they personally like the game. But every one still playing GW also has a Warmachine army, or two. There was some drama when some ultra-die hard, hard on GW types got angry that GW wasn't being played as much in store, but the reality was that none of their group was really playing GW games while there anyway. Now, even those people are trying new games like X-Wing.


Stop GW Now @ 2014/04/30 04:33:44


Post by: Sinful Hero


Personally, I buy and play with models from several games- not just Games Workshop. I don't just buy books for the rules, but for the fluff as well. If GW makes a product that I want, and the price is acceptable to me, I buy it- just as with any other game. During Space Marine months I'm uninterested. During Tyranid/Dark Eldar months I'm a customer. I'll occasionally pick up models from other releases(Cauldron of Blood for example) as well.

If Games Workshop continues to print books and manufacture models I like, I will continue to buy them. There's no sheep or lemming mentality here, if they have something I like I buy it. If they don't, I don't buy. I'm not obligated or forced to do anything. I still have my own free will when it comes to my wallet. If the price is too high, I don't buy. Simple as that.


Stop GW Now @ 2014/04/30 04:42:08


Post by: MWHistorian


I haven't stopped with 40k, not at all, but I'm also starting to branch out. The two most interesting games for me look like Warmachine and Infinity and I'm having a hard time deciding between the two.

A boycott on GW? It's a personal preference. Revolution comes when the average person feels uncomfortable enough. For some that has happened already. For others they're just fine and will keep going how they are. I'm kind of in the middle. GW has some serious problems but not quite enough for me to leave. But I am looking at options.


Stop GW Now @ 2014/04/30 05:41:32


Post by: Howard A Treesong


There isn't the will to boycott, most customers of GW seem to be newbies who spend fairly indiscriminately. Who buys from GW when there are so many discounters. The big success of GW is in convincing their customers that they are effectively the whole hobby and really are the best and that you can only use citadel/GW product together. There will be people buying the new toolkit with citadel logo because only GW clippers will do the job. People buying from GW aren't the veterans on the internet, they are the short term customers that GW aim at to sell a lot of stuff in a short period.

A boycott won't work because it'll never be organised. And to be honest, they're just models and paints. I find their continual price increases and rules re-releases ludicrous, but nothing to get angry about.

I don't like GW because of what I perceive as an unreasonable and aggressive attitude towards the IP the purport to own and their mishandling of independent game stores. Because these things affect the community outside the GW hobby.

The real threat to GW isn't a boycott but lack of ongoing customer interest. They are open about the fact that they don't advertise but rely on word of mouth. But what are people saying about GW? The fewer customers they have (as appears the implication of falling sales) the less advertising they get and less chance of the new people they thrive upon being introduced to the hobby. It's a confusing strategy, relying on word of mouth and then doing nothing for veteran players.

If you rely largely on word of mouth to spread your product, and are viewed negatively, it'll be bad commentry or people just won't recommend you. You will gradually lose customers to a point at which your gaming community becomes unsustainable and it will rapidly drop off a cliff. Gamers complain when they want to get into a system but won't because 'no one plays it in my area'. When that regularly happens to GW they'll be in real trouble, as their shops no longer offer places in which to play, so what's the point in them?


Stop GW Now @ 2014/04/30 07:16:48


Post by: Harriticus


 Maddermax wrote:
Just try other games for a while. You'll soon find your cares for what GW does disappear. Find a new game, love it, show a friend and pass it along.


Pretty much this. I gave up GW a year ago and my hobby experiences are far better. Unless you're going to play pre-5th edition 40k it's a horrible, unpleasant experience thanks to GW.

As for boycotting, GW is digging its own grave, albeit very slowly. They'll collapse under their own stink, the cracks have been showing since about 2009 but 2013 had those cracks turn into full penetration. In a few more years, despite their tricks of codex bombardment/price hikes/more lawsuits/stores open 2 days a week/whatever, they'll be in a deeper hole.


Stop GW Now @ 2014/04/30 07:39:12


Post by: -Loki-


 easysauce wrote:
Im very under impressed by WM/H ruleset to be frank... more so with the lack of variaty and the same feel to 90% of the factions armies all seeming like the look and play the same.


Contrast to everyone just running Taudar in 40k at the moment? At least people are playing different factions at the top level.


Stop GW Now @ 2014/04/30 07:47:23


Post by: JP1138


What if...and this is a HUGE what if, a what if that could take on Godzilla one handed while at the same time playing a game of Apocolypse with all the GW models ever made... What if GW created a new BRB that encapsulated all the rules, fixed all issues and included fluff and guidelines to both settings 30K & 40K. All the FAQs were incorporated and the game streamlined.

Now add to that the option to take hour current BRB into your local GW where if you hand it in you can buy a copy for £10/$18. No questions where you bought it.

For me that would be a huge PR win for GW and a great start to winning back some community goodwill. To keep the bean counters happy limit this offer to a weekend or other time frame, maybe centred around a big instore event.

Like I said a HUGE what if... But it's nice to dream.


Stop GW Now @ 2014/04/30 11:10:07


Post by: Daedleh


 easysauce wrote:
 Grimtuff wrote:
 easysauce wrote:

look in their forum and notice that before any hobby sections got added, they get their "YMDC" sections, which are just as ambiguous as the 40k YMDC...


Sorry, what?

As of right now, 32114 threads in 40k YMDC, 519 in WM/H YMDC.

So, yeah....

ALso, its a lot easier to have a more streamlined ruleset when you have 1/10 of the content, and most of your armies are 90% the same...


My Warmachine rulebooks are the same size as 40k.

Where on earth are you getting that 90% of armies are the same? What do you mean by that? That the units in each of the different factions are identical? That they've got identical stats?


Stop GW Now @ 2014/04/30 11:16:23


Post by: PhantomViper


 Daedleh wrote:
 easysauce wrote:
 Grimtuff wrote:
 easysauce wrote:

look in their forum and notice that before any hobby sections got added, they get their "YMDC" sections, which are just as ambiguous as the 40k YMDC...


Sorry, what?

As of right now, 32114 threads in 40k YMDC, 519 in WM/H YMDC.

So, yeah....

ALso, its a lot easier to have a more streamlined ruleset when you have 1/10 of the content, and most of your armies are 90% the same...


My Warmachine rulebooks are the same size as 40k.

Where on earth are you getting that 90% of armies are the same? What do you mean by that? That the units in each of the different factions are identical? That they've got identical stats?


He is trolling, he has absolutely 0 knowledge about WMH and is just making stuff up as he goes along to try and get a rise out of other posters.


Stop GW Now @ 2014/04/30 11:41:04


Post by: Raven911


Support Prodos and Warzone Ressurection. Free pdf rules, and awesome models.


Stop GW Now @ 2014/04/30 11:48:16


Post by: rexscarlet


So many valid points, thanks to all who shed light on the subject.
.
Cost; This video about sums up cost setting and quality by Industry Leader GW, which makes other game companies (PP) think they can do the same, NOTE there is language NSFW in the Jackie Mason Starbucks video;
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1fGnIOZ1yY8
Starbucks (GW) is why Coffee at a gas station (other game companies) is so expensive, the gas station just has to be a little less expensive than the Industry Leader, even if the gas station Coffee is crap. (even if Starbucks Coffee is crap)
.
Savings; There are always ways to save money, so there is that with GW gouging. I guess I will fly to Texas to buy my RV, since it will save me 5k compared to my best price locally, with gas and flight to TX I will still save 4.5k...
.
Boycott; Everyone that said a Boycott will not work are correct, and everyone that said GW will/IS creating their own Boycott with GW's business practices are also correct.
.
Alternatives; There are always alternative miniature games, some with better rules, some with better figures, but few with better fluff, and finding players, well that is another issue.
.
Alternatives to miniature gaming; So many.
.
Thanks all...


Stop GW Now @ 2014/04/30 11:56:35


Post by: LuciusAR


Life is too short to rage at GW in this way. The world of Tabletop Gaming is vast and there are hundreds of rules sets and model makers out there covering almost every genre, scale or period of time you could think of. One of them is bound to do something more in line with what you want.

I've not played a game of 40k in about 8 years, it's been about 5 since my last game of fantasy.

Since then I've played lots of rulesets including Deadzone, Saga, X-Wing, Black Powder, WAB, Flames of War, Bolt Action, Dropzone Commander, Blitzkrieg Commander, Cold War Commander and had a brief flirtation with Warmachine.

Free yourself from the GW straightjacket. You have nothing to lose.


Stop GW Now @ 2014/04/30 12:04:29


Post by: Strombones


 Maddermax wrote:
Just try other games for a while. You'll soon find your cares for what GW does disappear. Find a new game, love it, show a friend and pass it along.


Quoted For Truth. You will be amazed at what else is out there.

Edit:

Also to add to what LuciusAR said, as soon as I swallowed the blue pill and left the warhammer matrix I've been actually gaming more than ever in my life. Where most gaming sessions of 40k would usually devolve into bickering, games of Battlegroup and Bolt action now just end in the intense desire to play again.


Stop GW Now @ 2014/04/30 12:16:31


Post by: dereksatkinson


rexscarlet wrote:
GW is continuing to make "current" purchased rules publications obsolete with the release of another purchased rules publication. (the list is long)



Stop playing the game. Sell your models. Stop Whining...

Problem solved.


Stop GW Now @ 2014/04/30 12:21:48


Post by: Mr. Burning


Can the OP change the thread title to Stop GW NAOW!!!one1!

Just makes it relevant.



Stop GW Now @ 2014/04/30 12:22:25


Post by: -Loki-


dereksatkinson wrote:
rexscarlet wrote:
GW is continuing to make "current" purchased rules publications obsolete with the release of another purchased rules publication. (the list is long)



Stop playing the game. Sell your models. Stop Whining...

Problem solved.


Pretty much this.

Anecdotally, this rumour came about at about the same time as Corvus Belli announced Infinity 3rd edition. The news of 40k 7th in my group has been met with... negative reactions. This is from a bunch of close friends who have been playing 40k together since 2nd edition. My brother simply said 'I'm happy playing 6th', and a friend said 'I'd buy 3rd edition Infinity before that'. Something to take away from that is 3rd edition Infinity will be free to download from CB's website, and purchasing is entirely optional.

You don't need to organise a boycott of GW, nor do you need to yell and cry and whinge on an internet message board. You just need to stop or, if you still enjoy the game but not the company, severely reduce buying Games Workshops products. This does have a cascading effect - if you stop buying them and look at alternatives, your friends will have one less opponent and might look at said alternatives as well. If one of them looks at alternatives, then the rest have two less opponents, etc.

If you want to boycott Games Workshop and promote other games in your group, it simply starts with you.


Stop GW Now @ 2010/05/01 16:27:48


Post by: ClockworkZion


Hm...looks like this probably isn't a new edition and OP can untwist his knickers now: http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/510/592379.page#6780019


Stop GW Now @ 2014/04/30 12:31:06


Post by: BallinWitStalin


 Price wrote:
"I hate sixth!! Why won't GW fix the rules or release a new, more balanced set!?"

"New rule book? Feth you GW!! FETH YOU!!"

-_-'


Haha, I won't lie, that was my first impression of this thread as well. People have been complaining a long time (with what seems like some justification) about the clusterfeth of 6th, and then when GW releases seventh....


Stop GW Now @ 2014/04/30 12:36:37


Post by: -DE-


... it turns out it's an even worse ruleset for more $$$. This is great news!


Stop GW Now @ 2014/04/30 13:32:07


Post by: Jehan-reznor


dereksatkinson wrote:
rexscarlet wrote:
GW is continuing to make "current" purchased rules publications obsolete with the release of another purchased rules publication. (the list is long)



Stop playing this edition of the game. and play the edition you like.

Problem solved.


Edited for correctness.


Stop GW Now @ 2014/04/30 13:48:01


Post by: Swan-of-War


 Strombones wrote:
 Maddermax wrote:
...games of Battlegroup and Bolt action now just end in the intense desire to play again.




Why does this sound so erotic to me?


Stop GW Now @ 2014/04/30 14:04:12


Post by: Tanakosyke22


You know, I am not the biggest fan of GW at all, but instead of putting so much rage over Games Workshop, I say play the edition you want with you friend, buy and trade with others and not with GW, and/or give a few other games a try to give you a fresh perspective on it.


Stop GW Now @ 2014/04/30 14:21:46


Post by: Mr. Burning


 Tanakosyke22 wrote:
You know, I am not the biggest fan of GW at all, but instead of putting so much rage over Games Workshop, I say play the edition you want with you friend, buy and trade with others and not with GW, and/or give a few other games a try to give you a fresh perspective on it.


But that would require not ranting.


Stop GW Now @ 2014/04/30 15:26:05


Post by: Accolade


I am not a fan of this thread (EDIT: I should specify its original post, there has been some good discussion within).

All this thread does is make it easier for people defending GW's actions to dismiss legitimate complaints under the pretext of "whining."

So you don't like what GW has been doing these days? Great, I'm mostly there with you. You want to complain about price increases, shortening codex duration, lack of production value, sure, again I'm all for it. Be thought-provoking, cite solid evidence, don't knee-jerk at GW news, be positive about alternatives and work to shift the paradigm of those who are in the same mindset.

But don't make a thread boycotting GW when they haven't done something socially or ethically offensive. It doesn't help your cause, it just weakens it and leaves people with constructive criticism having to fight that much harder to make their point.


Stop GW Now @ 2014/04/30 15:50:01


Post by: Coldhatred


I have stopped GW. Stopped GW products being bought by myself. I have moved on to historicals and I couldn't be happier.


Stop GW Now @ 2014/04/30 15:53:09


Post by: ClockworkZion


 Accolade wrote:
I am not a fan of this thread (EDIT: I should specify its original post, there has been some good discussion within).

All this thread does is make it easier for people defending GW's actions to dismiss legitimate complaints under the pretext of "whining."

So you don't like what GW has been doing these days? Great, I'm mostly there with you. You want to complain about price increases, shortening codex duration, lack of production value, sure, again I'm all for it. Be thought-provoking, cite solid evidence, don't knee-jerk at GW news, be positive about alternatives and work to shift the paradigm of those who are in the same mindset.

But don't make a thread boycotting GW when they haven't done something socially or ethically offensive. It doesn't help your cause, it just weakens it and leaves people with constructive criticism having to fight that much harder to make their point.

Have an exalt for making a great point.


Stop GW Now @ 2014/04/30 16:22:58


Post by: Breotan


 Coldhatred wrote:
I have stopped GW. Stopped GW products being bought by myself. I have moved on to historicals and I couldn't be happier.
In my case GW did it to themselves. They just haven't put out anything I'm interested in buying lately, other than that Knight model a month or so ago. This isn't unique to GW however. I haven't pledged to any kickstarters lately nor bought any new Warmachine or Malifaux stuff. This has been a very slow year for hobby purchases.



Stop GW Now @ 2014/04/30 17:34:27


Post by: easysauce


PhantomViper wrote:
he is trolling, he has absolutely 0 knowledge about WMH and is just making stuff up as he goes along to try and get a rise out of other posters.


Im really not... I see WMH at tournies, have looked through the rules and played a couple games... it just seems very bland and "meh" to me, and all the armies I see at tournies seem to be very repetitive and look the same.

Could be made worse by the total lack of people in my area who like the hobby aspect of WMH, so 99% of the WMH armies are not even painted or primed.

I am allowed to think its a blase game without being a troll you know...

I think malifaux is awesome, and seem to have no trouble appreciating games like attack wing ect even though they are non GW.

I think its hilarious that if I bash a game YOU like, WMH, im a troll, but when you bash a game I like, 40k, you are not.

if you dont like GW stuff, dont play it, no need to fill the airwaves with all the "GW SUCKS" noise.


Stop GW Now @ 2014/04/30 17:39:48


Post by: Azreal13


 easysauce wrote:
PhantomViper wrote:
he is trolling, he has absolutely 0 knowledge about WMH and is just making stuff up as he goes along to try and get a rise out of other posters.



I am allowed to think its a blase game without being a troll you know...


Yes you are, but what you were doing was throwing around a bunch if unfounded, unsupported "facts" in order to try and make some sort of point, which may be considered inflammatory. So, it might not be trolling by intent, but it certainly could be considered troll-like.


if you dont like GW stuff, dont play it, no need to fill the airwaves with all the "GW SUCKS" noise.


Oh look, this spurious and facile argument again.

What were you saying about trolling?

Should mention I'm a 40K playing, non Warmachiner before you ascribe any motives to this post.


Stop GW Now @ 2014/04/30 17:51:37


Post by: Arbiter


I think the MODs to close this thread, all that is left is hurt feelings and Sri Lanka employees.


Stop GW Now @ 2014/04/30 17:54:32


Post by: wallygator


goddamn hippies...


Stop GW Now @ 2014/04/30 17:55:44


Post by: easysauce


that WMH is bland and repetitive without much depth, is my opinion.... never claimed it was a fact... where I see lack of unit choices, others might see brilliant simplicity and streamlining.


Stop GW Now @ 2014/04/30 17:58:14


Post by: Agent_Tremolo


GW is a front organization for the Bavarian Illuminati. Wake up, sheeple.


Stop GW Now @ 2014/04/30 17:58:35


Post by: HiveFleetPlastic


There are some sizeable problems with Warmachine. I've never seen easysauce mention any of them, though.

I would like to add my voice to the people saying there's no need to boycott. Just try playing a different game and you won't even care anymore. There are lots of cool miniatures games around and stopping limiting yourself to GW ones is pretty liberating. Warmachine is fun and Infinity and Malifaux look pretty interesting to me, too.


Stop GW Now @ 2014/04/30 18:00:48


Post by: Frazzled


rexscarlet wrote:
GW is continuing to make "current" purchased rules publications obsolete with the release of another purchased rules publication. (the list is long)
.
$75 Main/Big Rule Book obsolete in less than two years (6e 23rd of June, 2012)
Wow, just wow.
.
It has to stop, and the 40K community are the only ones that can stop it.
.
Stop being lemmings, this goes for the Distributors and/or FLGS also, Stop GW now.
.
Sticking FLGS and/or Distributors with dead stock with NO buyback program. (fyi, Walmart does not own one product in the entire store, if magazines do not sell, the magazine company takes them back, that goes for the entire contents of the store. Other retailers have similar buyback programs in place, it is common practice in retail)
Closing Countries Borders to selling. (CA, AU, etc.)
GW Direct "only" products, this includes E-Books.
Cease and desist to Fan fiction and homebrew rules websites.
No FLGS Internet sales.
No "new" FaQs for months, no older FaQs on the "new" website.
No rules Support, ever.
Massive flooding of multiple Rule Books with huge issues attached to each.
No Battle Bunkers, No tables in GW stores.(where players used to get "fair" House Rules being used by a large majority, rather than relying on non GW Tournaments).
No Outriders.
GW Stock in the toilet.
Etc. (add to this list if you want)
.
All of which We will have to Pay For.
.
Stop GW Now


Its not Putin and the 33rd Guards Division. Its just GW. if you don't like it, just don't buy from them.


Stop GW Now @ 2014/04/30 18:04:12


Post by: Saldiven


 easysauce wrote:
that WMH is bland and repetitive without much depth, is my opinion.... never claimed it was a fact... where I see lack of unit choices, others might see brilliant simplicity and streamlining.


Let me preface this by saying I haven't played Warmachine since it first came out; I couldn't afford two game systems at the time, and just never really went back.

But, saying "where I see lack of unit choices" is just misinformed. Each one of the Warmachine factions has as many or more unit choices than two or three entire WH40K codices. I just checked online, and for example, Cygnar has 48 separate unit choices, not counting mercenaries (and there are close to 50 mercenary options). My Dark Eldar book has 20-25, including all the special characters. My WHFB Dwarf book has the same 20-25, including special characters.

Here's the list:

http://battlecollege.wikispaces.com/Cygnar


Stop GW Now @ 2014/04/30 18:04:51


Post by: ClockworkZion


 HiveFleetPlastic wrote:
There are some sizeable problems with Warmachine. I've never seen easysauce mention any of them, though.

For me there are two: the aesthetics and the scale of the game. I'm not really into "skirmish" sized games and I don't like the look of the models all that much.


Stop GW Now @ 2014/04/30 18:06:57


Post by: MWHistorian


Just because it's "opinion" doesn't mean its granted an invulnerable aegis of protection. Your opinion is based off of incorrect facts and assumptions.


Stop GW Now @ 2014/04/30 18:08:12


Post by: Saldiven


 Agent_Tremolo wrote:
GW is a front organization for the Bavarian Illuminati. Wake up, sheeple.


I thought they were the Gnomes of Zurich....


Stop GW Now @ 2014/04/30 18:08:45


Post by: Daedleh


 easysauce wrote:
that WMH is bland and repetitive without much depth, is my opinion.... never claimed it was a fact... where I see lack of unit choices, others might see brilliant simplicity and streamlining.


I'm just trying to figure out where you're getting "a lack of unit choices" from. I've got around 30 different Cryx unit choices in my collection and all of them get used regularly and are "competitive". I still have at least double that before I start to run out of major units to collect. Putting them together in different combinations results in a completely different playstyle (Dene + Bane Knights? Debuff incarnate. Terminus + Bane Knights? CHARGE) and my collection has more variety than all of the 40k armies I've ever collected put together.

Where on earth are you getting "a lack of unit choices" from? What units do you see duplicated time and time again?

No-one's calling you a troll because you're spouting an opinion. They're calling you a troll because you may as well be arguing that the sun is purple for all the sense you're making. You could have argued that you don't like the aesthetics. Fine, that's your opinion. You could have argued that you don't like the scale of the game. Fine, that's your opinion. You could argue that you don't like the attitude of "bring your best all the time, don't complain when you lose". Fine that's your opinion.

Claiming that there's a lack of variety in Warmachine is so far off the mark that the only explanantion is that you're trolling.


Stop GW Now @ 2014/04/30 18:09:35


Post by: infinite_array


Saldiven wrote:
 easysauce wrote:
that WMH is bland and repetitive without much depth, is my opinion.... never claimed it was a fact... where I see lack of unit choices, others might see brilliant simplicity and streamlining.


Let me preface this by saying I haven't played Warmachine since it first came out; I couldn't afford two game systems at the time, and just never really went back.

But, saying "where I see lack of unit choices" is just misinformed. Each one of the Warmachine factions has as many or more unit choices than two or three entire WH40K codices. I just checked online, and for example, Cygnar has 48 separate unit choices, not counting mercenaries (and there are close to 50 mercenary options). My Dark Eldar book has 20-25, including all the special characters. My WHFB Dwarf book has the same 20-25, including special characters.

Here's the list:

http://battlecollege.wikispaces.com/Cygnar


I have to agree. Warmachine does have its problems, and I could never get into the game because of the rules - they just weren't for me - but from an objective standpoint unit choices for Warmachine and Hordes vastly outnumber either Fantasy or 40k. I mean, the Theme Lists alone are incredible.


Stop GW Now @ 2014/04/30 18:28:35


Post by: HiveFleetPlastic


 ClockworkZion wrote:
 HiveFleetPlastic wrote:
There are some sizeable problems with Warmachine. I've never seen easysauce mention any of them, though.

For me there are two: the aesthetics and the scale of the game. I'm not really into "skirmish" sized games and I don't like the look of the models all that much.

I found a faction whose looks I quite liked and then found that over time the rest of the aesthetic began to appeal to me more. The board gets pretty busy at the usual tournament game sizes, too, but yeah, in Warmachine "a lot" of infantry is like thirty models or something. Much smaller than 40k!

But when you get into the game more it has some more unfortunate problems. I'd say the biggest two are the rules are overly complex to the extent that many games, even between pretty experienced players, will feature one or more rules mistakes, and the amount to remember about the different units is immense and failing to take the wrong bits into account can mean you just die. Someone losing the game because they didn't realise unit X could do Y is pretty unsatisfying, and it's uncomfortably common because even though you can ask your opponent for their unit details at any point it's monumentally difficult to remember all of them. Internal army balance isn't always the best, either - there are units that'll result in odd looks if you put them in a list!

But despite all that it's a good game and worth considering for anyone wanting a reason to stop spending money on 40k.


Stop GW Now @ 2014/04/30 18:48:16


Post by: Byte


How is this thread still open?


Stop GW Now @ 2014/04/30 19:15:42


Post by: ClockworkZion


 HiveFleetPlastic wrote:
 ClockworkZion wrote:
 HiveFleetPlastic wrote:
There are some sizeable problems with Warmachine. I've never seen easysauce mention any of them, though.

For me there are two: the aesthetics and the scale of the game. I'm not really into "skirmish" sized games and I don't like the look of the models all that much.

I found a faction whose looks I quite liked and then found that over time the rest of the aesthetic began to appeal to me more. The board gets pretty busy at the usual tournament game sizes, too, but yeah, in Warmachine "a lot" of infantry is like thirty models or something. Much smaller than 40k!

But when you get into the game more it has some more unfortunate problems. I'd say the biggest two are the rules are overly complex to the extent that many games, even between pretty experienced players, will feature one or more rules mistakes, and the amount to remember about the different units is immense and failing to take the wrong bits into account can mean you just die. Someone losing the game because they didn't realise unit X could do Y is pretty unsatisfying, and it's uncomfortably common because even though you can ask your opponent for their unit details at any point it's monumentally difficult to remember all of them. Internal army balance isn't always the best, either - there are units that'll result in odd looks if you put them in a list!

But despite all that it's a good game and worth considering for anyone wanting a reason to stop spending money on 40k.

I'll have to remember that next time I hear someone claim Warmachine to be "perfect" (yes I have seen such claims, I chalked it up to likely being hyperbole but now I know it's hyperbole).


Stop GW Now @ 2014/04/30 19:22:05


Post by: mattyrm


 gorgon wrote:
I can't believe no one's ever thought of boycotting before.


Only about 50-60 times a year since I got here...

Seriously, I have no love for GW, my advice to people that have just showed up is play something else.

My advice to people like me, who have been playing for years and have therefore already built up a sizable collection of non degradable, perfectly usable models and also fully invested into the background and the fluff, is to stop pissing and whinging, because you can get by on about 100 bucks a year even with their mercilessly frequent changes.

All of the shrill hate on here is unending and it tires even me, and I certainly dislike GW.

If you have just showed up, by all means pick something else to play, I would.

If you haven't, show a little restraint, purchase the bare-bones books you need off eBay, (a mini rulebook and a codex will set you back what? 75 bucks every few years?) and stop pissing and dripping because you will spend feth all anyway.

Isn't that a happy medium rather than all this endless bitching?


Stop GW Now @ 2014/04/30 19:26:15


Post by: Some_Call_Me_Tim?


Saldiven wrote:
 easysauce wrote:
that WMH is bland and repetitive without much depth, is my opinion.... never claimed it was a fact... where I see lack of unit choices, others might see brilliant simplicity and streamlining.


Let me preface this by saying I haven't played Warmachine since it first came out; I couldn't afford two game systems at the time, and just never really went back.

But, saying "where I see lack of unit choices" is just misinformed. Each one of the Warmachine factions has as many or more unit choices than two or three entire WH40K codices. I just checked online, and for example, Cygnar has 48 separate unit choices, not counting mercenaries (and there are close to 50 mercenary options). My Dark Eldar book has 20-25, including all the special characters. My WHFB Dwarf book has the same 20-25, including special characters.

Here's the list:

http://battlecollege.wikispaces.com/Cygnar


I was gonna make a post of my own to refute easysauce, but then I saw that you have already done it much better than I ever could. Darn.

~Tim?


Stop GW Now @ 2014/04/30 19:42:35


Post by: Selym


If GW does start churning out BRB's every two years, I think I'll be sticking with an older book until I hear reports of working rules...


Stop GW Now @ 2014/04/30 20:25:49


Post by: Grimtuff


 ClockworkZion wrote:

I'll have to remember that next time I hear someone claim Warmachine to be "perfect" (yes I have seen such claims, I chalked it up to likely being hyperbole but now I know it's hyperbole).


Incidentally I was talking to someone on monday about this. The game is to an extent in need of a Mk2 "remix" version (they did one in Mk1, incidentally much like what *might* be happening with 40k) as certain rules (namely Battle Engines, Colossals and Warcaster Units off the top of my head) are in need* (not need, as you don't really need these rules unless you're using said units, but I can't really think of a word! ) of being consolidated into the main rulebook.

It's certainly not suffering from the bloat it was at the time of the last Mk1 expansion (Legends), but it is getting overtly complex in places. Personally, I like it, but then again I don't play it top level competitively so I don't have to make it my business to know what everything can do.


Stop GW Now @ 2014/04/30 20:39:39


Post by: ClockworkZion


 Grimtuff wrote:
 ClockworkZion wrote:

I'll have to remember that next time I hear someone claim Warmachine to be "perfect" (yes I have seen such claims, I chalked it up to likely being hyperbole but now I know it's hyperbole).


Incidentally I was talking to someone on monday about this. The game is to an extent in need of a Mk2 "remix" version (they did one in Mk1, incidentally much like what *might* be happening with 40k) as certain rules (namely Battle Engines, Colossals and Warcaster Units off the top of my head) are in need* (not need, as you don't really need these rules unless you're using said units, but I can't really think of a word! ) of being consolidated into the main rulebook.

It's certainly not suffering from the bloat it was at the time of the last Mk1 expansion (Legends), but it is getting overtly complex in places. Personally, I like it, but then again I don't play it top level competitively so I don't have to make it my business to know what everything can do.

The complexity definitely made me not want to get into trying to play a game regardless of my other misgivings. The sheer volume of special rules (and which icons each of those rules use) is frankly a steep cliff to get past in trying to learn the game. I've been told it gets easier to play if you learn with someone who is experienced but that sounds a bit like whitewashing the problem too me.


Stop GW Now @ 2014/04/30 20:48:37


Post by: Talizvar


 mattyrm wrote:
<snip> My advice to people like me, who have been playing for years and have therefore already built up a sizable collection of non degradable, perfectly usable models and also fully invested into the background and the fluff, is to stop pissing and whinging, because you can get by on about 100 bucks a year even with their mercilessly frequent changes.
<snip> If you haven't, show a little restraint, purchase the bare-bones books you need off eBay, (a mini rulebook and a codex will set you back what? 75 bucks every few years?) and stop pissing and dripping because you will spend feth all anyway.
Isn't that a happy medium rather than all this endless bitching?
Been in the hobby for years and agree with much said.
It is not the cost so much as you say, it is the endless modifying models, improving your magnet use, dusting off the old army that is now new... it almost seems like work!
My biggest complaint is the changes of rules and having the dreaded flashbacks of say a 3rd edition rule which the young guys just LOVE to hear.
At least my Black Templar have whirlwinds again... (dust off old metal one...).


Stop GW Now @ 2014/04/30 21:00:03


Post by: Grimtuff


 ClockworkZion wrote:

The complexity definitely made me not want to get into trying to play a game regardless of my other misgivings. The sheer volume of special rules (and which icons each of those rules use) is frankly a steep cliff to get past in trying to learn the game. I've been told it gets easier to play if you learn with someone who is experienced but that sounds a bit like whitewashing the problem too me.


Yes, it is complex (I forgot Syntherion's incredibly good field marshal ability on monday for example. ), but it is in no way at the levels of hippy dippy sloppy rules writing that 40k is at. The icon thing is just like any other game that uses them (Heroclix for example), it takes some getting used to. There are cards with what all of the icons correspond to, but these are only available in the faction decks.

I feel the scale of the game is right for the amount of rules used in the game. 40k uses a similar amount (coupled with looser rules), but it is much larger in scale, thus slowing it down.


Stop GW Now @ 2014/04/30 21:56:29


Post by: ClockworkZion


 Grimtuff wrote:
 ClockworkZion wrote:

The complexity definitely made me not want to get into trying to play a game regardless of my other misgivings. The sheer volume of special rules (and which icons each of those rules use) is frankly a steep cliff to get past in trying to learn the game. I've been told it gets easier to play if you learn with someone who is experienced but that sounds a bit like whitewashing the problem too me.


Yes, it is complex (I forgot Syntherion's incredibly good field marshal ability on monday for example. ), but it is in no way at the levels of hippy dippy sloppy rules writing that 40k is at. The icon thing is just like any other game that uses them (Heroclix for example), it takes some getting used to. There are cards with what all of the icons correspond to, but these are only available in the faction decks.

I feel the scale of the game is right for the amount of rules used in the game. 40k uses a similar amount (coupled with looser rules), but it is much larger in scale, thus slowing it down.

I actually have an easier time with GW's rules, but that's likely because I don't need to remember the name, the effect AND and icon for it.

I do agree GW's rules need more streamlining. I'm glad they're finally keeping (most) of the special rules in one place now.


Stop GW Now @ 2014/05/01 00:22:20


Post by: Tanakosyke22


 ClockworkZion wrote:
 Grimtuff wrote:
 ClockworkZion wrote:

The complexity definitely made me not want to get into trying to play a game regardless of my other misgivings. The sheer volume of special rules (and which icons each of those rules use) is frankly a steep cliff to get past in trying to learn the game. I've been told it gets easier to play if you learn with someone who is experienced but that sounds a bit like whitewashing the problem too me.


Yes, it is complex (I forgot Syntherion's incredibly good field marshal ability on monday for example. ), but it is in no way at the levels of hippy dippy sloppy rules writing that 40k is at. The icon thing is just like any other game that uses them (Heroclix for example), it takes some getting used to. There are cards with what all of the icons correspond to, but these are only available in the faction decks.

I feel the scale of the game is right for the amount of rules used in the game. 40k uses a similar amount (coupled with looser rules), but it is much larger in scale, thus slowing it down.

I actually have an easier time with GW's rules, but that's likely because I don't need to remember the name, the effect AND and icon for it.

I do agree GW's rules need more streamlining. I'm glad they're finally keeping (most) of the special rules in one place now.


To some degree I can kind of agree with you Clockwork. Most of the rules are easily to memorizes to some degree than WMH (and some of the things that happen in turn in WMH can be easy to forget at times), but the 40K (and Fantasy to boot as well) are not what I'd call the epitome of rules writing at all.


Stop GW Now @ 2014/05/01 00:40:03


Post by: Maddermax


 ClockworkZion wrote:
 Grimtuff wrote:
 ClockworkZion wrote:

The complexity definitely made me not want to get into trying to play a game regardless of my other misgivings. The sheer volume of special rules (and which icons each of those rules use) is frankly a steep cliff to get past in trying to learn the game. I've been told it gets easier to play if you learn with someone who is experienced but that sounds a bit like whitewashing the problem too me.


Yes, it is complex (I forgot Syntherion's incredibly good field marshal ability on monday for example. ), but it is in no way at the levels of hippy dippy sloppy rules writing that 40k is at. The icon thing is just like any other game that uses them (Heroclix for example), it takes some getting used to. There are cards with what all of the icons correspond to, but these are only available in the faction decks.

I feel the scale of the game is right for the amount of rules used in the game. 40k uses a similar amount (coupled with looser rules), but it is much larger in scale, thus slowing it down.

I actually have an easier time with GW's rules, but that's likely because I don't need to remember the name, the effect AND and icon for it.

I do agree GW's rules need more streamlining. I'm glad they're finally keeping (most) of the special rules in one place now.


The icons are actually far better for "USRs" I think, they're a wonderful little time saver and memory jogger. I mean, if a unit has pathfinder, it has a little boot icon, it's not harder than remembering a unit has Move Through
cover. Similarly, the advance deploy icon has a little arrow, is that harder than remembering a unit has scout/infiltrate on a page in a book? I mean, there are 30 or so symbols total, most are pretty rare but obvious from their icon, while there are 80ish USRs in 40k to remember.

That's all by-the-by though, not really on topic.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Grimtuff wrote:
 ClockworkZion wrote:

I'll have to remember that next time I hear someone claim Warmachine to be "perfect" (yes I have seen such claims, I chalked it up to likely being hyperbole but now I know it's hyperbole).


Incidentally I was talking to someone on monday about this. The game is to an extent in need of a Mk2 "remix" version (they did one in Mk1, incidentally much like what *might* be happening with 40k) as certain rules (namely Battle Engines, Colossals and Warcaster Units off the top of my head) are in need* (not need, as you don't really need these rules unless you're using said units, but I can't really think of a word! ) of being consolidated into the main rulebook.

It's certainly not suffering from the bloat it was at the time of the last Mk1 expansion (Legends), but it is getting overtly complex in places. Personally, I like it, but then again I don't play it top level competitively so I don't have to make it my business to know what everything can do.


A consolidated book might be good, but at least all rules in the game can be gotten with just the main rulebook and the War Room app, which has all the Colossal/Battle Engine/ect rules. $6 to get all the models and rules released over 3 books for your faction is pretty good.


Stop GW Now @ 2014/05/01 01:06:11


Post by: TheAuldGrump


On topic, and, bizarrely enough, in defense of GW....

IF the latest editions of Warhammer and Warhammer 40K were intended for a longer run than previous editions

And

IF the sales of the most recent editions of Warhammer and Warhammer 40K were substantially lower than that of previous editions

Then

It would make sense to ditch the current edition of each game, even though neither has reached the end of its projected life cycle.

GW suffers from both a lack of playtesting and a tendency not to listen to those playtesters that they do have.

Ideally GW should have multiple playtests, including a double blind playtest - and without those tests what may have seemed like a decent and long lived system to the creators could turn out to be a dead fish in the market.

Honestly? I think that creating a new edition might be the best of a selection of bad choices.

Companies with much better track records than GW have made similar mistakes (I am looking at WotC's D&D 4th edition, specifically).

If the new editions are falling further behind in sales then it is likely best to abandon the sunk funds and try for a new chance.

I can only make an observation on a local scale - but the current edition of Warhammer was the best thing that could have happened for Kings of War in my area.

The Auld Grump - I have no observations for WH40K - I quit at the end of 3rd edition.


Stop GW Now @ 2014/05/01 01:11:15


Post by: ClockworkZion


 Tanakosyke22 wrote:
To some degree I can kind of agree with you Clockwork. Most of the rules are easily to memorizes to some degree than WMH (and some of the things that happen in turn in WMH can be easy to forget at times), but the 40K (and Fantasy to boot as well) are not what I'd call the epitome of rules writing at all.

I'm not claiming the rules are well written, just that I have an easier time remembering them because it's a whole section less stuff I have to remember. Better word choice and overall rewriting could be done to most of the rules, but the fact that it sticks better is at least a testament to something they do right in that regard (they don't over clutter them by adding more stuff to remember with icons).


Stop GW Now @ 2014/05/01 01:40:36


Post by: Maddermax


 ClockworkZion wrote:
 Tanakosyke22 wrote:
To some degree I can kind of agree with you Clockwork. Most of the rules are easily to memorizes to some degree than WMH (and some of the things that happen in turn in WMH can be easy to forget at times), but the 40K (and Fantasy to boot as well) are not what I'd call the epitome of rules writing at all.

I'm not claiming the rules are well written, just that I have an easier time remembering them because it's a whole section less stuff I have to remember. Better word choice and overall rewriting could be done to most of the rules, but the fact that it sticks better is at least a testament to something they do right in that regard (they don't over clutter them by adding more stuff to remember with icons).


I dunno, I hated the huge amount of USRs they added with 8th in fantasy, made it far more complicated. It sounds like they did the same with 6th ed 40k too, as I read through posts about it I can't understand most of the stuff they talk about because all the basic rules have been replaced with flowery USR names, even though I knew the 5th ed stuff back to front.

I think the reason you find WM/H rules more complicated, especially if it's the few symbols that trip you up, is simply familiarity. I mean, if you told me that a 40k unit was Bulky, adimantium will, it will not die, Hammer of Wrath and had an Unwieldy Shred weapon, I'd look at you with a bemused look on my face, it sounds way too complicated. However, all that probably makes perfect sense once you've been playing for a few months and feel familiar with the terms. Same goes for Icons in WM/H, after a few games they're familiar, and you can tell a units USRs in a one second glance - it's really handy actually.


Stop GW Now @ 2014/05/01 01:48:06


Post by: ClockworkZion


The unit takes up 2 transports slots a model, gets a +1 to they're "Deny the Witch" rolls, gets one attack at I10 that automatically hits on the turn they charge, and their weapon goes at I1 and rerolls wounds.

Yes, it makes perfect sense to me.

I think part of the problem for me is that I think more in words than in pictures.


Stop GW Now @ 2014/05/01 01:53:07


Post by: FoWPlayerDeathOfUS.TDs


Isn't there a fanmade ruleset for 40k somewhere in the internet? I think it is still current with new units.


Stop GW Now @ 2014/05/01 01:58:05


Post by: ClockworkZion


FoWPlayerDeathOfUS.TDs wrote:
Isn't there a fanmade ruleset for 40k somewhere in the internet? I think it is still current with new units.

Wouldn't surprise me if there was. It is a game that specifically encourages players to add to or adjust the rules as they see fit to improve the experience for everyone involved.


Stop GW Now @ 2014/05/01 01:59:33


Post by: Maddermax


 ClockworkZion wrote:
The unit takes up 2 transports slots a model, gets a +1 to they're "Deny the Witch" rolls, gets one attack at I10 that automatically hits on the turn they charge, and their weapon goes at I1 and rerolls wounds.

Yes, it makes perfect sense to me.

I think part of the problem for me is that I think more in words than in pictures.


To be fair, there are are words in the Faction Books if you'd prefer, the cards are basically only rules references and damage trackers If you purchased the books then, it'd be no worse than when playing 40k, to be fair.

That's not being pushy arguing you should take it up btw, just saying 40k and WM/H are very different games, and have different appeals.

Back on topic, I think GW would do better looking at PPs community engagement and support models than game design. Game design. PPs volunteer support, tournament support, rules support and community engagement of it's design staff are what makes it a popular company, more than it's rules set. As much as people complain about the rules, a consistent approach to FAQs and regularly answering questions would be a bigger boon than a better editor, and tournament support would stop the slow slide of people moving to playing the games with 3rd party models. Just a thought:



Stop GW Now @ 2014/05/01 02:21:39


Post by: insaniak


 HiveFleetPlastic wrote:
But when you get into the game more it has some more unfortunate problems. I'd say the biggest two are the rules are overly complex to the extent that many games, even between pretty experienced players, will feature one or more rules mistakes, and the amount to remember about the different units is immense and failing to take the wrong bits into account can mean you just die. Someone losing the game because they didn't realise unit X could do Y is pretty unsatisfying, and it's uncomfortably common because even though you can ask your opponent for their unit details at any point it's monumentally difficult to remember all of them. Internal army balance isn't always the best, either - there are units that'll result in odd looks if you put them in a list!

So nothing like 40K, then...


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 ClockworkZion wrote:
The complexity definitely made me not want to get into trying to play a game regardless of my other misgivings. The sheer volume of special rules (and which icons each of those rules use) is frankly a steep cliff to get past in trying to learn the game. I've been told it gets easier to play if you learn with someone who is experienced but that sounds a bit like whitewashing the problem too me.

It's not actually as bad as it seems at a first glance. If you start out small (the various battlegroup boxes are a handy way to get started) and ease into bigger games, it all falls into place as you play.

Picking up any new wargame is a steep learning curve. And most skirmish level games involve a lot of special rules. The key is always to start smaller until you have a grip on things and then look at expanding.


Stop GW Now @ 2014/05/01 02:24:17


Post by: ClockworkZion


 Maddermax wrote:
Back on topic, I think GW would do better looking at PPs community engagement and support models than game design. Game design. PPs volunteer support, tournament support, rules support and community engagement of it's design staff are what makes it a popular company, more than it's rules set. As much as people complain about the rules, a consistent approach to FAQs and regularly answering questions would be a bigger boon than a better editor, and tournament support would stop the slow slide of people moving to playing the games with 3rd party models. Just a thought:

Agreed. GW needs to come out of the closet, not go further in it. They've passed Christmas AND Narnia at this point and desperately need to stop burrowing in deeper.


Stop GW Now @ 2014/05/01 03:06:51


Post by: HiveFleetPlastic


 insaniak wrote:
 HiveFleetPlastic wrote:
But when you get into the game more it has some more unfortunate problems. I'd say the biggest two are the rules are overly complex to the extent that many games, even between pretty experienced players, will feature one or more rules mistakes, and the amount to remember about the different units is immense and failing to take the wrong bits into account can mean you just die. Someone losing the game because they didn't realise unit X could do Y is pretty unsatisfying, and it's uncomfortably common because even though you can ask your opponent for their unit details at any point it's monumentally difficult to remember all of them. Internal army balance isn't always the best, either - there are units that'll result in odd looks if you put them in a list!

So nothing like 40K, then...

One of the biggest problems I had with 6th was figuring out what the heck the rules actually are because they're so badly written. That's rarely a problem with Warmachine, which made it a great 40k rebound game for me. And hey, even the internal army balance being off sometimes has nothing on 40k's balance issues.
 insaniak wrote:

Automatically Appended Next Post:
 ClockworkZion wrote:
The complexity definitely made me not want to get into trying to play a game regardless of my other misgivings. The sheer volume of special rules (and which icons each of those rules use) is frankly a steep cliff to get past in trying to learn the game. I've been told it gets easier to play if you learn with someone who is experienced but that sounds a bit like whitewashing the problem too me.

It's not actually as bad as it seems at a first glance. If you start out small (the various battlegroup boxes are a handy way to get started) and ease into bigger games, it all falls into place as you play.

Picking up any new wargame is a steep learning curve. And most skirmish level games involve a lot of special rules. The key is always to start smaller until you have a grip on things and then look at expanding.

Experience definitely helps. When you start everything is weird, and then after a while you can see the commonalities between different units that make them easier to understand. So this caster's general type is to murder me by surprise from 16" away. This is a unit of heavy infantry, meaning I can expect not much defense and reasonable armour and hitting power, but they have this special thing about them. These are small-based high-def infantry with this caveat.

I'd quite enjoy a Mk 2.5, actually! Something to consolidate the rules and clean up some of the problem areas and maybe address some areas people agree are a bit weak, like terrain that isn't a forest, hill, wall or lake. Or something to rewrite the game in its entirety, fixing all the issues ever!

With 40k, the idea of buying a new rulebook just makes me uneasily aware how little value I got out of the last $140 shelf decoration. But I don't need to boycott them, because I can just play other stuff instead, and if they ever fix the rules I'll be able to blow the dust off my 40k miniatures and give them another try. I urge everyone feeling miffed at GW's business practices or whatever else to do the same, because you'll probably be pleasantly surprised at the other cool and well-executed (and much more affordable) ideas floating around the miniatures space.


Stop GW Now @ 2014/05/01 03:24:20


Post by: troa


If rumors are enough to set someone off like this, they should not be playing the game, and they should not be on the internet since they spout without actually having information.


Stop GW Now @ 2014/05/01 03:38:32


Post by: ClockworkZion


 troa wrote:
If rumors are enough to set someone off like this, they should not be playing the game, and they should not be on the internet since they spout without actually having information.

A good rule for life I think!


Stop GW Now @ 2014/05/01 03:40:33


Post by: Tanakosyke22


 ClockworkZion wrote:
 troa wrote:
If rumors are enough to set someone off like this, they should not be playing the game, and they should not be on the internet since they spout without actually having information.

A good rule for life I think!


Well, if they recently just got back into the game and/or just started, then I can understand someone being a bit livid and upset if the rumor was true.

But this response does seem a bit overblown.


Stop GW Now @ 2014/05/01 03:51:35


Post by: ClockworkZion


 Tanakosyke22 wrote:
 ClockworkZion wrote:
 troa wrote:
If rumors are enough to set someone off like this, they should not be playing the game, and they should not be on the internet since they spout without actually having information.

A good rule for life I think!


Well, if they recently just got back into the game and/or just started, then I can understand someone being a bit livid and upset if the rumor was true.

But this response does seem a bit overblown.

There is "I don't like this and I'm mad" and "BURN THE WHOLE VILLAGE" levels of responses. This thread feels much more like the latter instead of the former considering it's over rumors and not facts.


Stop GW Now @ 2014/05/01 03:52:20


Post by: Surtur


 ClockworkZion wrote:
 Tanakosyke22 wrote:
To some degree I can kind of agree with you Clockwork. Most of the rules are easily to memorizes to some degree than WMH (and some of the things that happen in turn in WMH can be easy to forget at times), but the 40K (and Fantasy to boot as well) are not what I'd call the epitome of rules writing at all.

I'm not claiming the rules are well written, just that I have an easier time remembering them because it's a whole section less stuff I have to remember. Better word choice and overall rewriting could be done to most of the rules, but the fact that it sticks better is at least a testament to something they do right in that regard (they don't over clutter them by adding more stuff to remember with icons).


You remember them better because you are more familiar with them. Having to learn something else does not make it harder and pp has given a warmachine player a distinct advantage by having a stat card with info right there rather than 2+ rulebooks to sift through.


Stop GW Now @ 2014/05/01 03:53:13


Post by: Tanakosyke22


 ClockworkZion wrote:
 Tanakosyke22 wrote:
 ClockworkZion wrote:
 troa wrote:
If rumors are enough to set someone off like this, they should not be playing the game, and they should not be on the internet since they spout without actually having information.

A good rule for life I think!


Well, if they recently just got back into the game and/or just started, then I can understand someone being a bit livid and upset if the rumor was true.

But this response does seem a bit overblown.

There is "I don't like this and I'm mad" and "BURN THE WHOLE VILLAGE" levels of responses. This thread feels much more like the latter instead of the former considering it's over rumors and not facts.


Very much true. Granted I'd be worried, but nothing to majorly fret over.


Stop GW Now @ 2014/05/01 03:54:36


Post by: j_p_chess


I'd have to say they are just RUMORS at this point.

You can play whatever edition you want to play. You can play whatever way you want but Please Please PLEASE stop trying to make 40k a tourney game, its about as silly as opening a steakhouse in New Dehli


Stop GW Now @ 2014/05/01 04:07:01


Post by: Kilkrazy


GW spent 25 years making 40K a tourney game. They only stopped a couple of years ago. The changes that today's tourney players dislike have been brought in by GW for 6th edition. You can't blame tourney players for resenting that situation and complaining.


Stop GW Now @ 2014/05/01 04:35:17


Post by: ClockworkZion


 Surtur wrote:
 ClockworkZion wrote:
 Tanakosyke22 wrote:
To some degree I can kind of agree with you Clockwork. Most of the rules are easily to memorizes to some degree than WMH (and some of the things that happen in turn in WMH can be easy to forget at times), but the 40K (and Fantasy to boot as well) are not what I'd call the epitome of rules writing at all.

I'm not claiming the rules are well written, just that I have an easier time remembering them because it's a whole section less stuff I have to remember. Better word choice and overall rewriting could be done to most of the rules, but the fact that it sticks better is at least a testament to something they do right in that regard (they don't over clutter them by adding more stuff to remember with icons).


You remember them better because you are more familiar with them. Having to learn something else does not make it harder and pp has given a warmachine player a distinct advantage by having a stat card with info right there rather than 2+ rulebooks to sift through.

I learned 6th almost completely in a week. After that long trying to remember the WHM stuff I gave up because there is just a much higher volume of stuff (yes I'm counting the pictures as "stuff") and people were advising me to not learn it on my own but get someone to teach me.

I'm sorry but if I need to be tutored to learn the game then it's not that simple and intuitive and it needs some pruning.

I play games, like a lot of games (more digital than analog but I do board and card games too), and when I, as someone who plays a lot of games, have issues picking up and running with the ruleset without a tutor I find that to be a major flaw.

EDIT: I don't want to sound argumentative because I'm not trying to be. I'll admit that maybe it's just me, maybe I just have a mental handicap for PP's game style, I don't know, but the game isn't for me and I feel like it was actively resisting my attempts to learn it when I tried to give it a fair shake. I've got the Khador/Menoth starter sitting in my room right now because I was trying to give it a decent shake and it just didn't work out for me. So in short: I give up I guess.


Stop GW Now @ 2014/05/01 04:46:53


Post by: Surtur


 ClockworkZion wrote:
 Surtur wrote:
 ClockworkZion wrote:
 Tanakosyke22 wrote:
To some degree I can kind of agree with you Clockwork. Most of the rules are easily to memorizes to some degree than WMH (and some of the things that happen in turn in WMH can be easy to forget at times), but the 40K (and Fantasy to boot as well) are not what I'd call the epitome of rules writing at all.

I'm not claiming the rules are well written, just that I have an easier time remembering them because it's a whole section less stuff I have to remember. Better word choice and overall rewriting could be done to most of the rules, but the fact that it sticks better is at least a testament to something they do right in that regard (they don't over clutter them by adding more stuff to remember with icons).


You remember them better because you are more familiar with them. Having to learn something else does not make it harder and pp has given a warmachine player a distinct advantage by having a stat card with info right there rather than 2+ rulebooks to sift through.

I learned 6th almost completely in a week. After that long trying to remember the WHM stuff I gave up because there is just a much higher volume of stuff and people were advising me to not learn it on my own but get someone to teach me. I'm sorry but if I need to be tutored to learn the game then it's not that simple and intuitive and it needs some pruning. I play games, a lot of games (more digital than analog but I do board and card games too), and when I, as someone who plays a lot of games, is having issues picking up and running with the ruleset without a tutor I find that to be a major flaw.


The significant differences between 6th and 5th were not nearly so great as a new system. The fact that you're trying to make them equivalent is flawed reasoning.


Stop GW Now @ 2014/05/01 04:50:16


Post by: ClockworkZion


 Surtur wrote:
The significant differences between 6th and 5th were not nearly so great as a new system. The fact that you're trying to make them equivalent is flawed reasoning.

40k isn't the only game I've ever played though and I've raised the point that I like playing games. A pretty large number of games. I'm pretty decent at learning and playing games and I had a real problem trying to learn Warmachine and the only advice I saw being recommended for new players was to not learn it on your own but to have someone teach you and I don't feel that a game that must be taught for people to understand meets the benchmarks of great game design. Call it bias or what have you but I don't find Warmachine to be that great of a game, no matter how tightly the individual rules are written because it doesn't feel organic or intuitive to me.


Stop GW Now @ 2014/05/01 04:53:01


Post by: Unit1126PLL


 ClockworkZion wrote:
 Surtur wrote:
The significant differences between 6th and 5th were not nearly so great as a new system. The fact that you're trying to make them equivalent is flawed reasoning.

40k isn't the only game I've ever played though and I've raised the point that I like playing games. A pretty large number of games. I'm pretty decent at learning and playing games and I had a real problem trying to learn Warmachine and the only advice I saw being recommended for new players was to not learn it on your own but to have someone teach you and I don't feel that a game that must be taught for people to understand meets the benchmarks of great game design. Call it bias or what have you but I don't find Warmachine to be that great of a game, no matter how tightly the individual rules are written because it doesn't feel organic or intuitive to me.


Also, this may be going somewhat off-topic, but there are a lot of rules in WM that I find un-intuitive.


Stop GW Now @ 2014/05/01 05:35:23


Post by: -Loki-


 ClockworkZion wrote:
 Surtur wrote:
 ClockworkZion wrote:
 Tanakosyke22 wrote:
To some degree I can kind of agree with you Clockwork. Most of the rules are easily to memorizes to some degree than WMH (and some of the things that happen in turn in WMH can be easy to forget at times), but the 40K (and Fantasy to boot as well) are not what I'd call the epitome of rules writing at all.

I'm not claiming the rules are well written, just that I have an easier time remembering them because it's a whole section less stuff I have to remember. Better word choice and overall rewriting could be done to most of the rules, but the fact that it sticks better is at least a testament to something they do right in that regard (they don't over clutter them by adding more stuff to remember with icons).


You remember them better because you are more familiar with them. Having to learn something else does not make it harder and pp has given a warmachine player a distinct advantage by having a stat card with info right there rather than 2+ rulebooks to sift through.

I learned 6th almost completely in a week. After that long trying to remember the WHM stuff I gave up because there is just a much higher volume of stuff (yes I'm counting the pictures as "stuff") and people were advising me to not learn it on my own but get someone to teach me.


To be fair, learning 6th in a week but taking a long time to learn Warmachine isn't uncommon - for a lot of people, learning a new edition of 40k is easy, because not much changes. The turn structure and the way rules interact hasn't changed much since 3rd edition, so a new edition of 40k is just learning the new USRs and little quirks they added this time around.

Learning a completely new game is different - everything works differently including basic dice mechanics. Personally, I've been learning Infinity for over a year and still bugger things up (I learned in my last game we've been getting - of all things - LoS wrong), while like you I figured out 6th edition 40k pretty quickly.


Stop GW Now @ 2014/05/01 09:58:54


Post by: Grimtuff


 troa wrote:
If rumors are enough to set someone off like this, they should not be playing the game, and they should not be on the internet since they spout without actually having information.





Heaven forbid. The vast majority of the internet would probably be shut down if they followed your rules...


Stop GW Now @ 2014/05/01 11:05:58


Post by: Kaptajn Congoboy


To add to the derailing:
WMH's rules aren't necessarily intuitive. The language is quite "technical"and devoid of much flavor text, concentrating on coherency of writing style to make it easy to look up rules. Which it is. I've run hundreds of tournaments and events since Mk2 dropped, and in 99 out of 100 cases, people's rules questions can be answered just by requiring them to read their cards again. Judges are typically only necessary for close measurements. There are rules mistakes made in tournaments, even at high levels, but remember that almost all WMH tournaments are played with chess clocks, which will amp up the frequency of such mistakes.

I also find it really odd that people claim the rules are difficult to learn. We have people playing in tournaments a couple of weeks after they learned the game without being geniuses. They don't know all the model rules of their opponents, and will get some nasty surprises because of it, but the rules themselves most people get down in short order. I would also say we have a number of years before we require a new Remix. When consolidated the Errata is only 3-4 pages long, as there are many repeats - when they errataed the Shield Guard rule, for example, they repated it under each model that has the rule (to keep the format uniform) -which means that a 7-line paragraph turns into 70, and the new rules from the Mk2 add-on books are not that numerous yet. Now that War Room is finally reliable, players also have access to a "living rulebook" for all the rules (and cards, if they pay for them) as long as they have a smartphone or pad.

 -Loki- wrote:
Personally, I've been learning Infinity for over a year and still bugger things up (I learned in my last game we've been getting - of all things - LoS wrong), while like you I figured out 6th edition 40k pretty quickly.


To be fair, Infinity can be really difficult to learn for a number of reasons - chief of which is that it was translated somewhat shoddily from spanish to english and edited badly, which the re-edit only partly fixed - and the FAQ is getting pretty hefty. Some rules are also still unclear, only partly FAQed and require clarifications. I am eagerly awaiting 3rd edition later this year!


Stop GW Now @ 2014/05/01 13:06:54


Post by: Tanakosyke22


Kaptajn Congoboy wrote:
To add to the derailing:
WMH's rules aren't necessarily intuitive. The language is quite "technical"and devoid of much flavor text, concentrating on coherency of writing style to make it easy to look up rules. Which it is. I've run hundreds of tournaments and events since Mk2 dropped, and in 99 out of 100 cases, people's rules questions can be answered just by requiring them to read their cards again. Judges are typically only necessary for close measurements. There are rules mistakes made in tournaments, even at high levels, but remember that almost all WMH tournaments are played with chess clocks, which will amp up the frequency of such mistakes.

I also find it really odd that people claim the rules are difficult to learn. We have people playing in tournaments a couple of weeks after they learned the game without being geniuses. They don't know all the model rules of their opponents, and will get some nasty surprises because of it, but the rules themselves most people get down in short order. I would also say we have a number of years before we require a new Remix. When consolidated the Errata is only 3-4 pages long, as there are many repeats - when they errataed the Shield Guard rule, for example, they repated it under each model that has the rule (to keep the format uniform) -which means that a 7-line paragraph turns into 70, and the new rules from the Mk2 add-on books are not that numerous yet. Now that War Room is finally reliable, players also have access to a "living rulebook" for all the rules (and cards, if they pay for them) as long as they have a smartphone or pad.

 -Loki- wrote:
Personally, I've been learning Infinity for over a year and still bugger things up (I learned in my last game we've been getting - of all things - LoS wrong), while like you I figured out 6th edition 40k pretty quickly.


To be fair, Infinity can be really difficult to learn for a number of reasons - chief of which is that it was translated somewhat shoddily from spanish to english and edited badly, which the re-edit only partly fixed - and the FAQ is getting pretty hefty. Some rules are also still unclear, only partly FAQed and require clarifications. I am eagerly awaiting 3rd edition later this year!


Granted a good amount of the WMH rules are easy to understand, some of the minor details and things that occur in a turn before hand or in a step are not so easy to remember unless you have experience with the game.


Stop GW Now @ 2014/05/01 13:36:00


Post by: Selym


Regarding a few posts about the over-complexity of certain things in 40k...

Other than the fact that I agree, I recently put together a new 1000 points Astra Militarum / Inquisitor / ABG list.

As usual, I made a list of everything in the army and how much they cost...
And then I realised that I was too new to all three of these rulesets to know what anything does. So I decided to make a reference sheet, listing the rules and wargear for each unit, and explaining what everything means [that I hadn't previously known].

This list of 9 units (or about 6 unique units, due to repeats) took me 6 pages to fully evaluate...

If I went for a 1750 point list, I would have to more than double that number, due to the increased complexity of more advanced units and interactions.


Stop GW Now @ 2014/05/01 13:40:17


Post by: pities2004


rexscarlet wrote:
 kronk wrote:
Thanks for not dropping the Mic! Mighty friendly of you!

I hope the glut of e-book mini publications stop. I picked up Bel A'Kor and Cypher because they're cool dudes, but refuse to buy any more. No support from me!

Unless they do a Black Templar character. Or an Imperial Fist. Or an Orc.

But I stop at those! And no LE books, either!

Unless it's an army I play. Or casually like.


My purchases are always calculated, I am considering buying a RV, or two vacation Condos at the moment (not timeshares), and I will probably overthink and over calculate both, and buy neither (and just take four 5k vacations a year, for 20 years).
.
I am the same with Hobby purchases, I try to shop smart (shop S-Mart).
.
I do not like the eBook format, because they are set up for a smart device, then to put them on pdf for my laptop, I have to convert them, etc. and they are still set up with the small screen format/look which is a pain to scroll through, look at, etc. But when I want to read on the go they work great compared to a two pound book. (alternatively, buying the book, get a discount or bundle for the eBook would be nice)
.
In my perfect world GW would team-up with Army-builder or Battle-scribe.
.
Seems trips, and regular plastic non-gaming models are going to win out over miniature gaming.



SO you want to make probably what? $50,000 to about $200,000 purchase but you want to sit here and complain about GW's business practice?



Stop GW Now @ 2014/05/01 13:42:34


Post by: Selym


 pities2004 wrote:

SO you want to make probably what? $50,000 to about $200,000 purchase but you want to sit here and complain about GW's business practice?

Yes. :-|

I don't see any reason for unrelated purchase considerations preventing someone being unhappy with GW...


Stop GW Now @ 2014/05/01 15:03:34


Post by: Saldiven


 pities2004 wrote:


SO you want to make probably what? $50,000 to about $200,000 purchase but you want to sit here and complain about GW's business practice?



It's about perceived value. A series of awesome vacations or a couple of pieces of real property will always win out against some plastic army men.


Stop GW Now @ 2014/05/01 16:23:34


Post by: Surtur


 pities2004 wrote:

SO you want to make probably what? $50,000 to about $200,000 purchase but you want to sit here and complain about GW's business practice?



Ad Hominem. Attack the argument not the arguer.


Stop GW Now @ 2014/05/02 23:37:33


Post by: ntw3001


 easysauce wrote:
GW "fans" OMGURD it takes sooooo long for new rules to be released this sucks

GW *realeases rules at epic pace*

gw "fans" OMGURRRRD tooo fast I want my stuff to be valid for 5+ years

gw *face palm*


Thing is, when GW were just pushing out passably-balanced codices several times quicker than before, people were pleased with the change. Then they made a couple of unbalanced books, then spewed out a great mass of dataslates, then released Escalation, and are now putting out a new edition, or at least an edition-sized update release, to fix the mess. Out of all that, I promise it's not the increased speed of army updates that people found objectionable.


Stop GW Now @ 2014/05/03 07:04:00


Post by: Surtur


ntw3001 wrote:
 easysauce wrote:
GW "fans" OMGURD it takes sooooo long for new rules to be released this sucks

GW *realeases rules at epic pace*

gw "fans" OMGURRRRD tooo fast I want my stuff to be valid for 5+ years

gw *face palm*


Thing is, when GW were just pushing out passably-balanced codices several times quicker than before, people were pleased with the change. Then they made a couple of unbalanced books, then spewed out a great mass of dataslates, then released Escalation, and are now putting out a new edition, or at least an edition-sized update release, to fix the mess. Out of all that, I promise it's not the increased speed of army updates that people found objectionable.


The problem as I understand it, is that you had books like Necrons, Sisters, Bretonia and Wood Elves sitting around for years going through multiple editions before an update. Then you had the codex creep where flavor of the month was/is a legitimate problem. That is why people wanted updates faster. It was to hopefully make their army sensible to the rules again and hopefully get a bit of a bump in power. It's also why many companies don't update the way GW does. Bolt Action threw all the rules out at once and caught up with minis after. Flames of War releases books that give multiple lists to two or more armies at a time. Infinity, DZC and Warmahordes update all factions roughly at the same time with a comparable release for each. I honestly don't know of any company that continues to update the way GW does mostly because most of them have adapted to a more consumer friendly model. GW is holding onto a 30 year old business model that hasn't even come to grips with 90s technology like the internet.

The other problem as you pointed out ntw, is the mass of tacked on rules that is released alongside army updates is impossible to compile and keep up to date on. It's a monotonous drone of information, a pain for anyone to cipher through and it can be greatly upset in a month's time by the next slew of information. It's flooding it's own market faster than it's customers can consume.


Stop GW Now @ 2014/05/03 11:34:50


Post by: Ugavine


So GW are releasing a new product, boo hoo. No one has to buy any new rules. Play Rogue Trader is you want to, GW is not making you buy anything.

If your local group insists on playing the new rules only be mad at them.


Stop GW Now @ 2014/05/03 12:00:08


Post by: Sidstyler


 Ugavine wrote:
If your local group insists on playing the new rules only be mad at them.


Why? They're not doing anything wrong. It's assumed that you'll be playing by the newest and most up-to-date rules when you play any other game.


Stop GW Now @ 2014/05/03 15:46:37


Post by: krazynadechukr


rexscarlet wrote:
GW is continuing to make "current" purchased rules publications obsolete with the release of another purchased rules publication. (the list is long)
.
$75 Main/Big Rule Book obsolete in less than two years (6e 23rd of June, 2012)
Wow, just wow.
.
It has to stop, and the 40K community are the only ones that can stop it.
.
Stop being lemmings, this goes for the Distributors and/or FLGS also, Stop GW now.
.
Sticking FLGS and/or Distributors with dead stock with NO buyback program. (fyi, Walmart does not own one product in the entire store, if magazines do not sell, the magazine company takes them back, that goes for the entire contents of the store. Other retailers have similar buyback programs in place, it is common practice in retail)
Closing Countries Borders to selling. (CA, AU, etc.)
GW Direct "only" products, this includes E-Books.
Cease and desist to Fan fiction and homebrew rules websites.
No FLGS Internet sales.
No "new" FaQs for months, no older FaQs on the "new" website.
No rules Support, ever.
Massive flooding of multiple Rule Books with huge issues attached to each.
No Battle Bunkers, No tables in GW stores.(where players used to get "fair" House Rules being used by a large majority, rather than relying on non GW Tournaments).
No Outriders.
GW Stock in the toilet.
Etc. (add to this list if you want)
.
All of which We will have to Pay For.
.
Stop GW Now


Wow. Someone needs a new hobby.

If ever I became this much of a malcontent over a hobby, a casual past time mind you, it'd be time to seriously consider help, or at the least, just find a new hobby that didn't have such a hold over me or my emotions.

Wow.

With cars, computers, phones, and countless other things that get new versions on a yearly basis, does anyone flip out (before all the facts are even out yet) like this?


Stop GW Now @ 2014/05/03 15:53:37


Post by: Azreal13


As daft as this thread always was, you've only picked up on one point (the parallels between tech and rules, which aren't really a parallel, but we'll assume this is a valid counterpoint for now.)

Care to tackle everything else he's cited? Because as slightly over emotional as it comes across, there's a lot of very valid points there.


Stop GW Now @ 2014/05/03 16:23:12


Post by: krazynadechukr


Best case scenario, in regards to the "new" rulebook, is that the 6th is merely getting revised/fixed/corrected & stronghold & escalation, plus D weapons, are being bunched in.

I'd wait to over react until we know the facts....


Stop GW Now @ 2014/05/03 16:31:58


Post by: Azreal13


Have you even read the post?

There was only one point pertinent to the release of a new/revised edition, everything else is totally divorced from that, and perfectly valid criticism, of presented in a slightly over emotional manner.


Stop GW Now @ 2014/05/03 16:37:12


Post by: Grimtuff


 azreal13 wrote:
Have you even read the post?

There was only one point pertinent to the release of a new/revised edition, everything else is totally divorced from that, and perfectly valid criticism, of presented in a slightly over emotional manner.


Brace yourself Az, the "H" word is coming....


Stop GW Now @ 2014/05/03 16:43:24


Post by: Azreal13


Well, of course, that would be the next logical step if one is following "Defending Games Workshop On The Internet For Dummies"

I continue to hope for a new perspective, eloquently argued and supported by evidence.

I am often disappointed.


Stop GW Now @ 2014/05/03 19:07:26


Post by: Surtur


 krazynadechukr wrote:

Wow. Someone needs a new hobby.

If ever I became this much of a malcontent over a hobby, a casual past time mind you, it'd be time to seriously consider help, or at the least, just find a new hobby that didn't have such a hold over me or my emotions.

Wow.

With cars, computers, phones, and countless other things that get new versions on a yearly basis, does anyone flip out (before all the facts are even out yet) like this?


Appeal to emotion and a straw man. If the points are not valid you should be able to argue them on their own basis. Just because someone has an emotional attachment to their hobby doesn't make them insane as you implied. Furthermore, projecting emotional distress beyond an argument and playing as though you yourself are emotionless yet replying in such a passive-aggressive manner is bad arguing, poor manners and ironic.

An apple is not a chocolate cake nor a t-bone steak yet they are all food. Can we please stop pretending that GW and it's product should be compared to every other hobby out there and that in the realm of wargamming and miniature painting/collecting it's policies are terrible. If you really want to compare it to other companies in terms of corporate policy or economic success, fine, but it's still going to look bad for all the reasons that have been presented over this thread and dozens of others. It can't treat it's customers and it's financial partners (FLGS and online retailers) the way it does and expect to be a worthwhile investment, grow it's customer base or be perceived as a good company you want to support.


Stop GW Now @ 2014/05/03 20:18:27


Post by: Pacific


 krazynadechukr wrote:
rexscarlet wrote:
GW is continuing to make "current" purchased rules publications obsolete with the release of another purchased rules publication. (the list is long)
.*snip*
.
Stop GW Now


Wow. Someone needs a new hobby.

If ever I became this much of a malcontent over a hobby, a casual past time mind you, it'd be time to seriously consider help, or at the least, just find a new hobby that didn't have such a hold over me or my emotions.

Wow.

With cars, computers, phones, and countless other things that get new versions on a yearly basis, does anyone flip out (before all the facts are even out yet) like this?


I think the key point is whether people have spent a significant amount of time with something, and then formed an emotional attachment with it. When that thing then becomes 'worse' you are more angry about it than say if it had always been a pile of crap.

As an example, one of my favourite films when I was growing up was Terminator 2. The first movie was good, but the 2nd one was IMO a classic and one of the best films of all time. I have probably bought about half a dozen copies of it; first VHS (that wore out), then DVD with different editions, and finally Blu-ray. It's fair to say that I'm a big fan!

So, picture the scene, queuing outside the cinema for Terminator 3. We are humming the Brad Fiedl theme tune. Now I won't go into it here, but in summary the 3rd film disappointed me, and my friends who felt the same way about 2, severely. Had it just been any action film with time travelling robots it wouldn't have mattered - but, for me the 3rd film took something I loved and ruined it, made it ugly. IMO it was so bad that it actually damaged the 2nd film, and I don't think it is being OTT to say that the film actually angered me!

I think in some ways it's kind of a similar situation with modern GW for a lot of the long term fans. It was a company that meant a lot to them, like my copy of T2 on VHS, it was something that they felt a connection to. Now when you see the company treating the long term fans with what could really be seen in an uncaring manner at best, contempt at worst, it provokes that much of a stronger emotional reaction. So, you could say the new rules, miniatures, prices are 'alright' and shrug about it. Unfortunately, 'alright' isn't good enough for the people who have known GW for a long time, and had learnt to expect more.


Stop GW Now @ 2014/05/04 02:09:18


Post by: TheAuldGrump


Or the way countless thousands of people feel about the Star Wars prequels, and the changes to the original movie, and Indiana Jones and the Kingdom of the Crystal Skull and....

Oh my gods! Kirby is George Lucas!

The Auld Grump


Stop GW Now @ 2014/05/04 09:09:04


Post by: Selym


 Pacific wrote:
 krazynadechukr wrote:
rexscarlet wrote:
GW is continuing to make "current" purchased rules publications obsolete with the release of another purchased rules publication. (the list is long)
.*snip*
.
Stop GW Now


Wow. Someone needs a new hobby.

If ever I became this much of a malcontent over a hobby, a casual past time mind you, it'd be time to seriously consider help, or at the least, just find a new hobby that didn't have such a hold over me or my emotions.

Wow.

With cars, computers, phones, and countless other things that get new versions on a yearly basis, does anyone flip out (before all the facts are even out yet) like this?


I think the key point is whether people have spent a significant amount of time with something, and then formed an emotional attachment with it. When that thing then becomes 'worse' you are more angry about it than say if it had always been a pile of crap.

As an example, one of my favourite films when I was growing up was Terminator 2. The first movie was good, but the 2nd one was IMO a classic and one of the best films of all time. I have probably bought about half a dozen copies of it; first VHS (that wore out), then DVD with different editions, and finally Blu-ray. It's fair to say that I'm a big fan!

So, picture the scene, queuing outside the cinema for Terminator 3. We are humming the Brad Fiedl theme tune. Now I won't go into it here, but in summary the 3rd film disappointed me, and my friends who felt the same way about 2, severely. Had it just been any action film with time travelling robots it wouldn't have mattered - but, for me the 3rd film took something I loved and ruined it, made it ugly. IMO it was so bad that it actually damaged the 2nd film, and I don't think it is being OTT to say that the film actually angered me!

I think in some ways it's kind of a similar situation with modern GW for a lot of the long term fans. It was a company that meant a lot to them, like my copy of T2 on VHS, it was something that they felt a connection to. Now when you see the company treating the long term fans with what could really be seen in an uncaring manner at best, contempt at worst, it provokes that much of a stronger emotional reaction. So, you could say the new rules, miniatures, prices are 'alright' and shrug about it. Unfortunately, 'alright' isn't good enough for the people who have known GW for a long time, and had learnt to expect more.

Have an exalt, my well-written friend


Stop GW Now @ 2014/05/04 09:22:11


Post by: WarOne


 TheAuldGrump wrote:
Or the way countless thousands of people feel about the Star Wars prequels, and the changes to the original movie, and Indiana Jones and the Kingdom of the Crystal Skull and....

Oh my gods! Kirby is George Lucas!

The Auld Grump


Kirby is worse. At least Lucas cares what fans want even when he misguidedly thinks what they need is all his opinion.


Stop GW Now @ 2014/05/04 09:57:22


Post by: Grimtuff


 TheAuldGrump wrote:
Or the way countless thousands of people feel about the Star Wars prequels, and the changes to the original movie, and Indiana Jones and the Kingdom of the Crystal Skull and....

Oh my gods! Kirby is George Lucas!

The Auld Grump


I'm cautiously optimistic about the Terminator sequels. After all, it has Emilia Clarke in it.

You know what I don't care how bad it is, we're still getting about 90 minutes of Emilia Clarke as Sarah Connor.


Stop GW Now @ 2014/05/04 10:37:24


Post by: Scipio Africanus


 Grimtuff wrote:
 TheAuldGrump wrote:
Or the way countless thousands of people feel about the Star Wars prequels, and the changes to the original movie, and Indiana Jones and the Kingdom of the Crystal Skull and....

Oh my gods! Kirby is George Lucas!

The Auld Grump


I'm cautiously optimistic about the Terminator sequels. After all, it has Emilia Clarke in it.

You know what I don't care how bad it is, we're still getting about 90 minutes of Emilia Clarke as Sarah Connor.


Is Summer Glau's Blank Smile not good enough for you now?


Stop GW Now @ 2014/06/18 20:56:19


Post by: liquidjoshi


 Grimtuff wrote:
 TheAuldGrump wrote:
Or the way countless thousands of people feel about the Star Wars prequels, and the changes to the original movie, and Indiana Jones and the Kingdom of the Crystal Skull and....

Oh my gods! Kirby is George Lucas!

The Auld Grump


I'm cautiously optimistic about the Terminator sequels. After all, it has Emilia Clarke in it.

You know what I don't care how bad it is, we're still getting about 90 minutes of Emilia Clarke as Sarah Connor.


After a quick google search, I have to agree


Stop GW Now @ 2014/05/04 12:01:24


Post by: Grimtuff


 liquidjoshi wrote:
 Grimtuff wrote:

I'm cautiously optimistic about the Terminator sequels. After all, it has Emilia Clarke in it.

You know what I don't care how bad it is, we're still getting about 90 minutes of Emilia Clarke as Sarah Connor.


After a quick google search, I have to agree


You did not know she is most well known as Daenerys Stormborn of house Targaryen, Ruler of the Seven Kingdoms, Queen of the Andals, The Breaker of Chains and The Mother of Dragons?

For shame.

But we're veering OT here.


Stop GW Now @ 2014/05/04 12:20:54


Post by: liquidjoshi


 Grimtuff wrote:
 liquidjoshi wrote:
 Grimtuff wrote:

I'm cautiously optimistic about the Terminator sequels. After all, it has Emilia Clarke in it.

You know what I don't care how bad it is, we're still getting about 90 minutes of Emilia Clarke as Sarah Connor.


After a quick google search, I have to agree


You did not know she is most well known as Daenerys Stormborn of house Targaryen, Ruler of the Seven Kingdoms, Queen of the Andals, The Breaker of Chains and The Mother of Dragons?

For shame.

But we're veering OT here.


Hmm... suppose GW got the licence for a GoT TT game?


Stop GW Now @ 2014/05/04 13:46:30


Post by: Deadnight


 liquidjoshi wrote:
[

Hmm... suppose GW got the licence for a GoT TT game?


It would be kinda pointless. spearman, archers and cavalry v spearmen, archers and cavalry. One army list would do for pretty much all warring factions.


Stop GW Now @ 2014/05/04 14:10:38


Post by: ulgurstasta


Deadnight wrote:
 liquidjoshi wrote:
[

Hmm... suppose GW got the licence for a GoT TT game?


It would be kinda pointless. spearman, archers and cavalry v spearmen, archers and cavalry. One army list would do for pretty much all warring factions.


Like a historical wargame?


Stop GW Now @ 2014/05/04 18:44:53


Post by: Unit1126PLL


 ulgurstasta wrote:
Deadnight wrote:
 liquidjoshi wrote:
[

Hmm... suppose GW got the licence for a GoT TT game?


It would be kinda pointless. spearman, archers and cavalry v spearmen, archers and cavalry. One army list would do for pretty much all warring factions.


Like a historical wargame?


Honestly, I enjoy Field of Glory. The three-ways (yes there are rules for that *shrug*) between my two friends and I usually see my nearly-exclusive hoplite phalanxes crashing headlong into an already-occuring melee between Polish knights and Spanish Tercios.


Stop GW Now @ 2014/05/04 18:57:10


Post by: CthuluIsSpy


Deadnight wrote:
 liquidjoshi wrote:
[

Hmm... suppose GW got the licence for a GoT TT game?


It would be kinda pointless. spearman, archers and cavalry v spearmen, archers and cavalry. One army list would do for pretty much all warring factions.


Not necessarily. The Total War series does the same thing, and there is quite a bit of variety.

For example:

Roman infantry are pretty tough and disciplined but their archers and cavalry aren't great and they don't have much in terms of spearmen

Egyptian early game infantry aren't great, but they have access to chariots, excellent archers and spearmen

German units deals lots of damage, but they tend to have little armor and fall to arrows easily. They also don't have much in terms of ranged units and have no siege engines

etc,

So in GoT's (or rather, A Song of Ice and Fire's) case, they could do something like:

Northmen : Well disciplined, relatively good at hand to hand combat and they fight considerably better when near their general (especially if it's Robb Stark), but their equipment isn't great as the north isn't quite as rich as the south

Lannisters : Poorly trained units, basically expendable conscripts, but they have some well equipped and trained elite units due to their wealth

New Targaryean Empire (what I'm calling Danny's faction. Not strictly faithful, but best to have a cool name to make them sell well) : Fanatical and well disciplined soldiers (the Unsullied, Ex-slave soldiers, Dothraki etc), tends to be quite effective on the offense but have poor armor. Has cheap and fast moving cavalry in the form of Dothraki loyalists, and can field more horsemen than most factions. However, they are also very dependent on their commanders compared to the other factions; if their general dies, the entire army suffers leader ship penalties; the Ex-Slave soldiers become disheartened that their Mother's chosen commander has fallen, the Dothraki would not wish to serve a fallen leader and will fight amongst themselves to choose a new chief, and the Unsullied's rigid command structure would work against them, as they are unable to operate without orders.

Wildlings : No cavalry and little armor, but they have great archers, can field monsters (giants and mammoths) and their soldiers don't fight in ranked formations, meaning that they are slightly more maneuverable, especially through forests. However, this does mean they aren't as disciplined as the other armies, and will most like lose in a frontal assault against formations of units.

something like that, anyway


Stop GW Now @ 2014/05/04 19:03:24


Post by: The Grumpy Eldar


rexscarlet wrote:

.
Oh, you think opinions on blogs are from individuals, me thinks you need a trip to google, there are a ton of companies that will blog "pro" your company, a ton.
Welcome to the new age, to the new age...

Want a tinfoil hat with that good sir?

Edit: Odd, the website just shown me this thread was just one page... suddenly BAM, 7.


Stop GW Now @ 2014/05/04 20:39:49


Post by: Daedleh


rexscarlet wrote:
 Platuan4th wrote:
rexscarlet wrote:
so true, and all the Sri Lankan Pro Bloggers hired by GW flood this site and all the others, so wishful thinking on my part.
.


LOLWUT.

.
Oh, you think opinions on blogs are from individuals, me thinks you need a trip to google, there are a ton of companies that will blog "pro" your company, a ton.
Welcome to the new age, to the new age...


This is illegal in the UK under consumer protection laws.


Stop GW Now @ 2014/05/05 01:27:04


Post by: poda_t


 Daedleh wrote:
rexscarlet wrote:
 Platuan4th wrote:
rexscarlet wrote:
so true, and all the Sri Lankan Pro Bloggers hired by GW flood this site and all the others, so wishful thinking on my part.
.


LOLWUT.

.
Oh, you think opinions on blogs are from individuals, me thinks you need a trip to google, there are a ton of companies that will blog "pro" your company, a ton.
Welcome to the new age, to the new age...


This is illegal in the UK under consumer protection laws.


i wasn't aware that the UK categorically banned access to the internet outside of the UK. Besides, it's not that hard to generate a consumer culture around a product that glorifies the product.


Stop GW Now @ 2014/05/05 01:42:20


Post by: jonolikespie


 poda_t wrote:
 Daedleh wrote:
rexscarlet wrote:
 Platuan4th wrote:
rexscarlet wrote:
so true, and all the Sri Lankan Pro Bloggers hired by GW flood this site and all the others, so wishful thinking on my part.
.


LOLWUT.

.
Oh, you think opinions on blogs are from individuals, me thinks you need a trip to google, there are a ton of companies that will blog "pro" your company, a ton.
Welcome to the new age, to the new age...


This is illegal in the UK under consumer protection laws.


i wasn't aware that the UK categorically banned access to the internet outside of the UK. Besides, it's not that hard to generate a consumer culture around a product that glorifies the product.


GW don't seem to understand advertisement or customer satisfaction at fundamental levels, what on earth could lead anyone down this line of thought?


Stop GW Now @ 2014/05/05 04:01:21


Post by: Surtur


 jonolikespie wrote:
 poda_t wrote:
 Daedleh wrote:
rexscarlet wrote:
 Platuan4th wrote:
rexscarlet wrote:
so true, and all the Sri Lankan Pro Bloggers hired by GW flood this site and all the others, so wishful thinking on my part.
.


LOLWUT.

.
Oh, you think opinions on blogs are from individuals, me thinks you need a trip to google, there are a ton of companies that will blog "pro" your company, a ton.
Welcome to the new age, to the new age...


This is illegal in the UK under consumer protection laws.


i wasn't aware that the UK categorically banned access to the internet outside of the UK. Besides, it's not that hard to generate a consumer culture around a product that glorifies the product.


GW don't seem to understand advertisement or customer satisfaction at fundamental levels, what on earth could lead anyone down this line of thought?


Reading a white dwarf?


Stop GW Now @ 2014/05/06 20:09:26


Post by: jonolikespie


You mean the magazine that has systematically had all hobby related stuff removed before being split into a picture book and a pamphlet that tells you all about the shiney new things that the internet has known about for weeks and saw proper pictures of days ago?


Stop GW Now @ 2014/05/05 05:39:58


Post by: poda_t


It seems you completely forgot about the initial enthusiasm for their hhhobby. Think back to that initial enthusiasm, and think about their target audience. That audience is ignorant of the malpractice and lack of customer support. Gw is like the drug dealer in the alley behind the school...


Stop GW Now @ 2014/05/05 05:46:26


Post by: jonolikespie


Right, their target audience is kids, people who have never heard of the hobby and "people who buy GW products". Not us hobbyists who are aware enough to know what's going on and go looking for reviews on blogs... So how does anyone think that GW, a worldwide company still using a magazine to publish its news, think GW would hire people to write reviews?


Stop GW Now @ 2014/05/05 06:53:34


Post by: -Loki-


 jonolikespie wrote:
Right, their target audience is kids, people who have never heard of the hobby and "people who buy GW products". Not us hobbyists who are aware enough to know what's going on and go looking for reviews on blogs... So how does anyone think that GW, a worldwide company still using a magazine to publish its news, think GW would hire people to write reviews?


Tinfoil hat.


Stop GW Now @ 2014/05/05 07:12:38


Post by: King Crow


I boycotted like a year ago, never played the game but painted many models over about 10 years. I don't feel like GW is hurting, but my wallet sure isn't either.

My problem has been trying to find another company that makes models as cool as GW. I've considered buying from other retailers but i felt that wouldn't stick it to the man hard enough.

Just thought i'd share


Stop GW Now @ 2014/05/05 08:17:08


Post by: Pacific


Not to mention them for any reason other than to highlight a point, but look at this website, hover the mouse over 'wargaming miniatures'
http://www.waylandgames.co.uk/

If you say you can't find anything that you would like to paint out of all of that, then I won't believe you


Stop GW Now @ 2014/05/05 08:51:52


Post by: Surtur


 jonolikespie wrote:
You mean the magazine that has systematically had all hobby related stuff removed before being split into a picture book and a pamphlet that tells you all about the shiney new things that the internet has known about for weeks and saw proper pictures of days ago?


That's the one!


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 King Crow wrote:
I boycotted like a year ago, never played the game but painted many models over about 10 years. I don't feel like GW is hurting, but my wallet sure isn't either.

My problem has been trying to find another company that makes models as cool as GW. I've considered buying from other retailers but i felt that wouldn't stick it to the man hard enough.

Just thought i'd share


Odd, I've had nearly the complete opposite reaction.


Stop GW Now @ 2014/05/10 13:40:15


Post by: Squigsquasher


Oh look.

It's THIS thread again.

*SNORE*


Stop GW Now @ 2014/05/10 13:51:37


Post by: fishy bob


 Squigsquasher wrote:
Oh look.

It's THIS thread again.

*SNORE*

This is definitely a necessary post in a thread that hasn't had any activity for five days.