Sparkadia's amazing Orkish AC-130 Skepta Gunship and the release of Codex:Astra Militarum inspired me to take another shot at my Sororitas Valkyrie variants. This time I've got three: the basic assault carrier, a Vendetta equivalent with TL multi-meltas instead of TL lascannons, and the Virago, a crazy AC-130-like thing with an Exorcist Missile Launcher shooting out the side bay door. For bonus points, I've also included my rewrite of the Avenger Strike Fighter with Sisterhood-appropriate weapons, which means the damn thing replaces its lascannons with Exorcist missile launcher tubes.
Oh, and because all these things are flown and operated by Sisters, not Imperial Navy personnel, they all have BS:4 and Shield of Faith, i.e. a 6++ save.
Plus Celestians and Sororitas Command Squads can take some of these as dedicated transports, finally giving you a reason to field Celestians....though Sisters can't spam Vendetta-equivalents, don't worry.
Madness? Genius? A little of both? You decide! Flame on, friends, or better yet, offer constructive critiques of what's cool and what I should change.

[UPDATE: The final (?) versions of all these units -- and two dozen others -- are now in my Sororitas fandex/expandex]


***

Background: The Ecclesiarchal Fleet and Sororitas Aerospace Wings


***

New Dedicated Transport Options:
The elite of the Adepta Sororitas may soar into battle in variants of the Valkyrie assault carrier.
A Sororitas Command Squad may take a Sororities Valkyrie or Victoria as a dedicated transport.
A Celestian Squad may take a Sororitas Valkyrie as a dedicated transport.


***

FAST ATTACK

*

Sororitas Valkyrie: 150 160 points
By far the Sisterhood's most common flier, the Sororitas Valkyire simply replaces the Navy version's laser weaponry with heavy bolters or melta weapons.


Costing


*

Victoria: 155 180 points
The Victoria is the Sororitas equivalent of the Navy Vendetta. Armed with multi-meltas instead of lascannon, it sacrifices range for close-in firepower and is crewed by Sisters willing to get within "kissing distance" of their targets to incinerate them more effectively.


Costing



***

HEAVY SUPPORT

*

Virago: 175 points
The Virago is the rarest and strangest of the Sisterhood's Valkyrie variants, a hybrid that makes the orthodox Mechanicus wince but which the Sisterhood deemed necessary given their lack of dedicated ground-attack craft like the Navy Vulture.The Virago mounts a massive Exorcist Missile Launcher sideways in the space normally used for passengers or cargo, so the aircraft must circle its target, firing salvos of sanctified missiles out one side and venting backblast out the other.


Costing


*

Sororitas Avenger Strike Fighter: 200 210 points
Background:


Rules:


[i]Costing:


***

EDITED to finetune -- and generally increase -- points costs as per the excellent advice below, to change the Avenger's Exorcist Missile Launcher into a rack of individual Exorcist Missiles, and to replace the Valkyrie's Hellstrikes with single-shot Exorcist missiles, because that's totally a thing now.

Hardware-wise the Sisters of Battle seem to take after the Space Marines far more than the Guard (lots of Rhino-chassis vehicles, no Chimera/Russ-chassis vehicles), I'd think you'd see a variant Stormraven or Storm Talon piloted by Sororitas before you'd see a variant Valkyrie. You wouldn't need to tweak the hull much on the Stormraven, just the armament; start it off with two twin heavy bolters, with variant armaments including a torrent flamer, a Devil Dog super-blast-melta-cannon, plain old multi-meltas, and an Exorcist launcher; it seems much more in-character to me. The Storm Talon variant I'm guessing would go on a hull more like the DA flyers, give it the option of the torrent flamer, the blast melta cannon, or an Avenger mega-bolter and maybe a flamer bomb like the Marauder can take but smaller and call it good.

I'd have actual rules and pricing estimates here but I'm pretty tired, I'll have more for you in the morning.

Three things:

1) You're severely under-valuing the multimelta. They're only normally cheap because getting them into range is hard (especially since most infantry units can't move and fire them at full BS), on a flyer that can move 36" a turn getting into range is easy and you just get AP 1 and an extra die to penetrate armor. Your 3x MM "Vendetta" is better than the standard Vendetta in most situations, and its point cost should reflect that.

2) You don't get credit for removing the defensive heavy stubber. It's a useless weapon that is only present for fluff reasons, the limited firing arc prevents you from using it against ground targets and virtually all flyers are immune to it. Delete it if you have fluff reasons, but it shouldn't provide a -10 point discount.

3) A 6++ on a flyer is worth much more than it would be on any other unit. Most other units can get a better cover save without too much trouble, but flyers have to forfeit most of their shooting next turn.

Peregrine, three convincing points, thanks. Let me think out loud how to recost & get people's advice:

1) A multi-melta on a flier that has Hover can definitely get into melta range much easier. (On a flier that can't hover, with minimum move distances and limited turning, it would be easy to overshoot or not quite get the target in your front arc). On the other hand, the Victoria's need within 24" of the enemy -- or 12" to get the melta effect -- means it forfeits the Vendetta's ability to stand off out of enemy range and lascannon things to death, so there are plenty of situations where the multi-meltas are still worse.
So, while a multi-melta on a regular vehicle costs +10, and a lascannon costs +20, let's say a multi-melta on a flier costs 15. Twin-linked adds 50% (per Ovion's rules of thumb), that makes a TL MM on a ground vehicle 15, a TL lascannon 30, and a TL MM on a flier 23.

Then, for the Sororitas Valkyrie, replacing the heavy bolter with a single multi-melta would be a 5 point upgrade, not free. Replacing the Vendetta's 3 TL lascannons with 3 TL multi-meltas would then reduce the cost by 21 points, not 45, and bump the Victoria's cost up 25 (rounding up) to 180, ten points more than a Vendetta. Sound reasonable?

2) Is the Avenger's defensive heavy stubber worth anything at all? Has anyone ever actually fired it? If I don't hear otherwise, I'll consider removing it a zero-point change.

3) I hadn't thought about a 6++ Shield of Faith save (or forcefield or whatever) being more valuable on a flier because they can't get cover saves (usually). So instead of 10 points, maybe that's worth 15 or even 20?

AnomanderRake wrote:Hardware-wise the Sisters of Battle seem to take after the Space Marines far more than the Guard (lots of Rhino-chassis vehicles, no Chimera/Russ-chassis vehicles), I'd think you'd see a variant Stormraven or Storm Talon piloted by Sororitas before you'd see a variant Valkyrie. You wouldn't need to tweak the hull much on the Stormraven, just the armament; start it off with two twin heavy bolters, with variant armaments including a torrent flamer, a Devil Dog super-blast-melta-cannon, plain old multi-meltas, and an Exorcist launcher; it seems much more in-character to me. The Storm Talon variant I'm guessing would go on a hull more like the DA flyers, give it the option of the torrent flamer, the blast melta cannon, or an Avenger mega-bolter and maybe a flamer bomb like the Marauder can take but smaller and call it good.

Can you put flamer weapons on aircraft? From a realism (ha!) point of view, you'd risk flying into your own fiery backwash..... but maybe there's an official flier out there that does have a flamer weapon?

I agree with you that the Sisters rely on boltguns, power armour, and Rhino-chassis vehicles like the Marines, but I'm always leery of making them "Marines Lite." Tactically, massively armed attack from the sky strike me as a Marine thing. Fluffwise, Stormravens are described as a relatively recent addition to the Marine arsenal, I recall, which makes it unlikely for anyone outside the Astartes to have them -- I would think their availability would be more like Land Raiders than Rhinos.

By contrast, the Imperial Navy has Valkyries all over the place, and they seem much more "transport first, gunship second," which strikes me as more appropriate for the Sisters.

I also just like the Valkyrie more. Besides the name being perfect for a Sisters aircraft, it ... I dunno... feels better? Stormravens imbide too deeply of "everything we have is awesome and super-killy" aspect of the Marines, which is not the Sisters' thing.


Also: Does anyone think the Avenger's combination of bolt cannon and Exorcist is over the top? That's something I was worried about but decided to throw it out there for comment anyway -- it's easier to dial back the crazy upon critique than to add it after.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
PS: Here's a better explanation of why I like the Valkyrie better than the Stormraven: The Valk reminds me of solid but unglamorous aircraft used by the US military personnel I know, Black Hawks and (in days past) Hueys in particular. The Stormraven is a little too awesome, with the kind of superheroic capabilities that fit the Space Marines but make them hard for me to emphasize with. By contrast, I know Army and Marine pilots -- I just finished a graduate course where one of my fellow students was, in fact, a female Black Hawk pilot -- and the Valkyrie feels real to me in a way the Stormraven does not.

The Valkyrie feels more like an atmospheric deployment vehicle that's running with the supply-chain might of the Munitorium behind it, the Stormraven with its one-stage surface-to-orbit capability and broad multirole capabilities feels more like something you'd want in a smaller army with less backfield support like the Sisters of Battle.

I do get where you're coming from on the realism aspects and the "superheroicness" of the Stormraven, but in all honesty the Sisters of Battle and their whole angelic aspect is more where I'd expect to find that sort of thing. Realism with respect to comparing things to real life works best when we're discussing the Guard, with other armies in-universe logic (such as it is, "trust to the madman to lead the way" and all) holds more weight, and considering the Sisters of Battle and their typical combat role the dedicated-assault-transport aspect makes more sense to me than the utility-transport/gunship character I get out of the Valkyrie.

Plausibility-wise with the Stormraven's role as a recent development it may not literally be a Stormraven and may end up tweaked (MrSako's 5e Inquisition rules had a not-quite-Stormraven he called the "Erelim Lander" with lower armour, slightly different guns, and no Dreadnaught mag-clamp thingy (which I do admit is pretty silly)).

Lorewise and playability-wise an armament variant on the Storm Eagle could be another route to go here, it's old enough that the Sororitas could have acquired some over the intervening millennia, and it can carry a full Sisters squad of twenty models, which I suspect would be attractive to them.

As to flamers on planes the only precedents I can cite are the Heldrake (which is sort of closer to what I'm aiming for with regards to the torrent flamer used as a strafing weapon, though it'd likely be restricted to the front arc and put on a mount not unlike the Stormraven's mini-front-turret thing to explain the mobility) and the Marauder's flamer bombs (which are not quite the same thing).

As to the risk of making the Sisters "Marines Lite" they've always been that at some very abstract level, but in practice while they do a lot of things the same way as the Space Marines and a lot of their unit selections look like Space Marine units their highly specialized combat role runs counter to the Space Marines' jack-of-all-trades-master-of-none approach. I suggested the Stormraven as a basis because it's designed to get people up in the enemy's face and support close assault units, which is very much in-character for the Sisters in a way that the Valkyrie's long-ranged suppression fire and generalist transport role optimized for last-turn dropping Troops on objectives really isn't.

All good points to ponder. May not be enough to overcome my headcanon and not entirely rational love for the Valkyrie, though...

I agree that the Sisters basic tactics are closer to SM the guard, so poaching vehicles from them might be more appropriate. But I can see the argument for taking guard stuff, it’s got some solid fluff behind it.

The exorcist launcher strikes me more a a whole weapons package, not something that just gets slung under the wing of a fighter. I could totally see a sister in some sort of observation blister hammering away on the organ, missiles shooting out the side of the flyer in tune with the hymnals. I don’t see it replacing the LCs on the avenger. That’s just my vision/fluff thing. Mechanically, you look pretty well balanced.

In general, you can’t go wrong swapping out MMs for LCs. I would not bat an eye if you did that to the avenger.

For the Virago, I’d like to see the option for Fire Raptor-esqe quad HB mounts. That’s a ground support, shooting out of the side, holy trinity approved weapon system.

Also, in general, not enough burning. I’d not saying you need some crop duster option spraying promeathium across the table in a vector strike fashion, but at least some ignore cover large blast, single use bombs would not be out of place.

Lifting the Fire Raptor wholesale rules-wise wouldn't be far off seeing as its bolter/autocannon-focused arsenal works lorewise with the Sisters of Battle; give it the Shield of Faith at +15pts and trade its missiles for prometheum bombs (I'm having trouble determining what the Marauder's Hellstorm bombs actually do so for now assume they're Tactical Bombs with Ignores Cover) either free or at some small cost. Potential other options: swap the twin mega-bolter for a twin Inferno Cannon (torrent 12" S6/AP4 Heavy 1) for free or a twin Melta Cannon (24" S8/AP1 Heavy 1 Blast Melta) at some small cost.

As to the Storm Eagle variant I'm going to estimate the Storm Eagle's Vengeance Launcher at roughly two Whirlwind missile launchers which on one Rhino chassis would be thirty points less than an Exorcist but without front AV 13, so adding fifteen points to the Storm Eagle is probably reasonable, just permit the twin heavy bolter to be swapped for a twin multi-melta, and allow the purchase of some flamer bombs at the same price as the hellstrike missiles.

Nevelon, I agree on the Exorcist missile launcher (and I love your vision of how it works on the Virago); I'll remove it from the Avenger. The question is what to replace the lascannons with, because multi-meltas are in-your-face weapons that seem unsuited to a fragile, high speed flier. Maybe just a whole bunch of Hellstrike missiles?

And I found what I think are the current rules for the Fire Raptor (which I hadn't heard of before) on the Forge World website. (Am I looking at the right thing?) What a monster! I will ponder its munitions and magnifence a bit before coming to any conclusion.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
PS: and this is the Storm Eagle I should be looking at, right?

Yes to both (didn't realize the Storm Eagle was still online, FW usually pulls them after they come out in official rulebooks but that's the current setup as per Aeronautica).

 SisterSydney wrote:
Nevelon, I agree on the Exorcist missile launcher (and I love your vision of how it works on the Virago); I'll remove it from the Avenger. The question is what to replace the lascannons with, because multi-meltas are in-your-face weapons that seem unsuited to a fragile, high speed flier. Maybe just a whole bunch of Hellstrike missiles?

And I found what I think are the current rules for the Fire Raptor (which I hadn't heard of before) on the Forge World website. (Am I looking at the right thing?) What a monster! I will ponder its munitions and magnifence a bit before coming to any conclusion.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
PS: and this is the Storm Eagle I should be looking at, right?

My original vision was a sister on an open organ bench on top of the flyer, with goggles, a silk scarf, and an insane grin. Hammering out Toccatas and Fugues, in the key of S8, AP1. But that’s a little bit over the top, even for 40k.

One of the issues with sister-fying things is that if you want to stay true the the theme, you only really have the holy trinity of bolter/flamer/melta to work with. Which puts a big crimp on getting things working.

If you want to task a fighter with anti flyer/tank roles, MM is really the only stock option. The sisters might just be relying on their skill, speed, and faith to get in range for a good shot. You could go with a brace of single shot missiles, maybe a total of 4. If you wanted to go with exorcist-like missile pods, you could sling a pair underneath there. Instead of the d6 shots, one per pod would probably make more sense. You give up the burst of the lucky die, but keep a reliable 2 per turn, with the nice range over MMs. Comparing single exorcist missiles with MMs actually works fairly well. You are trading the melta rule for range. Seems pretty fair to me.

Hmmm. Something short of a full-scale Exorcist Missile Launcher does make sense as a "Sisterly" way to replace lascannons as ranged anti-tank, better tactically than short-ranged multi-meltas but more keeping with the army's themes than 72" range S:8 AP:3 Hellfire missiles. I recall Melissia's awesome Sororitas fandex (one of my inspirations for this homebrewing project, as different as my take on the Sisters is) actually had a portable one-shot-at-a-time Exorcist bazooka kind of thing:

 Melissia wrote:

Portable Exorcist Launchers
Explanation:
A mortar-like construction similar to the organ pipes of the Exorcist Missile Launcher, the Portable Exorcist Launcher-- referred to as Exorcist Pipes (or just Pipes for short) by those that carry them-- these launchers use the same payload as the venerable relics from which they take their name. The method of delivery, however, is different-- the missiles are launched up into the air like a mortar and then home in on the target using an infrared spotting device held by the operator. This often allows the user to attempt to direct the missile towards a weak spot in the armor, which they will readilly exploit. Due to the lack of a sizeable blast radius like a true mortar, however, the "pipe-carriers" refuse to fire without using this holy targeting system in order to conserve the relatively rare Exorcist missiles used as ammunition.
Rules:
* R48", S8 AP1, Heavy 1, Anti-Tank Targeting
* Anti-Tank Targeting: A to-hit roll of 6 allows the penetration roll to be made against side armor instead of frontal armor.

I'm not so sure on making them (wo)man-portable, and would definitely toss the "anti-tank targeting" rule, but something like this as a vehicular weapon (or an artillery piece) could fit nicely.

Also:

 Nevelon wrote:
My original vision was a sister on an open organ bench on top of the flyer, with goggles, a silk scarf, and an insane grin. Hammering out Toccatas and Fugues, in the key of S8, AP1. But that’s a little bit over the top, even for 40k.

Maaaaybe, but I will treasure the image for ever.

 SisterSydney wrote:
Maybe just a whole bunch of Hellstrike missiles?

I wouldn't bother. Hellstrike missiles are broken: because they're ordnance they force everything (including other hellstrike missiles) to snap fire, and they aren't even very effective weapons that would justify that kind of penalty. This almost always makes firing a hellstrike missile worse than just firing your normal guns at full BS and pretending your missiles don't exist.

Aha, I did not know that. I thought Fast vehicles didn't suffer the same penalties for firing multiple weapons on the move -- but then Valykries aren't Fast anymore, are they? Maybe something GW didn't think through when it moved to the Flyer rules...

 SisterSydney wrote:
Aha, I did not know that. I thought Fast vehicles didn't suffer the same penalties for firing multiple weapons on the move -- but then Valykries aren't Fast anymore, are they? Maybe something GW didn't think through when it moved to the Flyer rules...

The specifics of the issue:

Vehicles and Ordnance, page 71, core rulebook: Unlike other units, a vehicle can move and fire with Ordnance weapons. However, a vehicle that fires an Ordnance weapon can only make Snap Shots with its other weapons that turn.

Zooming and Shooting, page 80, core rulebook: Zooming Flyers can fire up to four of their weapons using their full Ballistic skill if they have moved at either Combat Speed or Cruising Speed that turn.

Missiles, page 81, core rulebook: A maximum of two missiles can be fired per Shooting phase, and they count towards the number of weapons fired that turn.

So you can fire two Hellstrike missiles but any other weapons you fire that turn will be snapfired. I will note, though, that the Space Marine Stormraven's Stormstrike missiles (SM book only, sorry, GK) are Heavy 1 so there's some precedent for having Heavy bombs/rockets instead of Ordnance bombs/rockets.

 SisterSydney wrote:
Aha, I did not know that. I thought Fast vehicles didn't suffer the same penalties for firing multiple weapons on the move -- but then Valykries aren't Fast anymore, are they? Maybe something GW didn't think through when it moved to the Flyer rules...

It's not about the flyer rules specifically, just the ordnance rule. The problem is that when GW turned hellstrike missiles into ordnance weapons to make them the cheap default weapon for the Valkyrie (which they're fine as, since they're supposed to be weak) FW never bothered to re-evaluate how they work on all the other flyers. And so we keep getting flyers with the option to buy hellstrike missiles even though you will never want to fire them.

 AnomanderRake wrote:
So you can fire two Hellstrike missiles but any other weapons you fire that turn will be snapfired.

Actually, it's even worse. Not only will all of your other weapons be snap shots the two hellstrike missiles will make each other snap shots.

 AnomanderRake wrote:
So you can fire two Hellstrike missiles but any other weapons you fire that turn will be snapfired.

Actually, it's even worse. Not only will all of your other weapons be snap shots the two hellstrike missiles will make each other snap shots.

Argh, GW rules writing....

Post incoming, writing between jobs at work. Will edit this when it's done.

EDIT: Went full R-Tard. Forgot to edit. Post below. Derp.

I edited the points costs in the first post to reflect some of the excellent points you guys have made, and to change the Sororitas Avenger's weapon from a full-on Exorcist Missile Launcher to a bunch of individual Exorcist missiles: 48" S:8 AP:1 Heavy 1, One shot, for 15 points. That's 5 points more than a Hellstrike (per Imperial Armour:Aeronautica), which has better range -- in fact, so much range it'll hardly ever matter on the tabletop -- but worse AP and suffers, as we've discussed, from being Ordnance.

Also:

 AnomanderRake wrote:
Hardware-wise the Sisters of Battle seem to take after the Space Marines far more than the Guard (lots of Rhino-chassis vehicles, no Chimera/Russ-chassis vehicles), I'd think you'd see a variant Stormraven or Storm Talon piloted by Sororitas before you'd see a variant Valkyrie. .....

I just ran across a comment from a thread last year on what a Sisterhood aerospace force would have that expresses my stance more concisely than I'm managing too:

 Grey Templar wrote:
They most likely have ships of some kinds, but they wouldn't have their own unique ship designs like Space Marines. They'd just be the same ships the Navy uses with the Fleur-de-lis slapped all over it, and with lots of gold trim. Hopefully GW will give them Valks eventually. Its the only GW flyer that would make sense for them to have.

 SisterSydney wrote:
That's 5 points more than a Hellstrike (per Imperial Armour:Aeronautica), which has better range -- in fact, so much range it'll hardly ever matter on the tabletop -- but worse AP and suffers, as we've discussed, from being Ordnance.

I wouldn't base any point costs on hellstrike missiles. 10 points for them is an absolute joke, they'd have to cost negative points before anyone would seriously consider putting them on a unit. And even then you'd still never use them, you'd just take them to make your unit cheaper. I'm not saying that 15 points for a one-shot exorcist missile is good or bad (IMO based on hunter-killer missiles paying 50% more for AP 1 is maybe a bit too cheap, but not completely unreasonable), just that you need to look elsewhere to find a comparable weapon to base their point costs on.

Well, compared to an HK missile, you get better AP but worse range -- not that you'd need the HK's "unlimited" range much, but an Exorcist's 48" can't fire the long way across the standard table, so that is a limitation.

[EDIT: I also switched the Valkyrie's Hellstrikes out for single-shot Exorcists for +10 points]


Automatically Appended Next Post:
P.S.: Relooking that old thread on whether Sisters had spaceships, I'm wondering if a Sister-piloted Avenger should even be a thing, because a Strike Fighter is a little too "feth you, Decree Passive." Whereas you can justify the need for "armed transports," both pure spacecraft and fliers, which seems very in keeping with the way the Sororitas wriggle around the restrictions:

INQUISITOR: And how does this comply with the Decree Passive, exactly?
CANONESS: This? It's a Sororitas Valkyrie, A transport armed for self-defense. It doesn't even have lascannon!
INQUISITOR: Well, I suppose that's all right. But what about this?
CANONESS: Oh, the Victoria? That's a transport with slightly less transport capacity and more self-defense capability.
INQUISITOR: Three twin-linked multi-meltas? For "self-defense"?
CANONESS: They're not even lascannons!
INQUISITOR: Hmmmph. Well, what about this thing, the "Virago," with the giant missile launcher sticking out the side? There's no room for passengers or cargo at all!
CANONESS: Quite the contrary, Inquisitor. As you can see from these specifications, all the Mechanicum delivered to us was a standard Valkyrie transport. It just happens, at this particular moment, to be transporting a fully functional Exorcist Missile Launcher.
INQUISITOR: I'm sure there's a flaw here somewhere.

 SisterSydney wrote:
Sparkadia's amazing Orkish AC-130 Skepta Gunship and the release of Codex:Astra Militarum inspired me to take another shot at my Sororitas Valkyrie variants.

I'm honored!

So, since I've been asked to, here's my thoughts on the subject. I will limit myself to the fluffy bits, as I do not consider myself to be sufficiently knowledgeable to 6E rules and interplay.

First off, the introduction:

Personally, I'd alter the description in a way that removes or limits the role of Battle Sisters as gunners. With how many capital and small ships the Ecclesiarchy must possess, you could easily double the overall number of Sisters Militant (or rather bind half the number they have right now) just for this supporting role. After all, it's not just the sheer number of vessels that would have to be (wo)manned, but also the backwards technology of the 41st millennium that may well see a single capital ship gun require several dozen crew to operate.

The way I see it, there's several alternative solutions:
Of course, this is just my interpretation, and it hinges partially on the amount of Battle Sisters being comparatively small (I'm still clinging to the numbers we were given in the 2E Codex - after all, it was the most detailed account of membership so far), so I am biased against inflating their numbers.

I would also limit starship availability to the Major Orders Militant, as only those actually have a reason to traverse the Imperium and show up across the galaxy. The Minor Orders are all bound to some local duty - which is why those convents came to split off from their maternal Major Order in the first place, after all - and would usually be way too small to warrant their own starships. And even though I am not sure whether or not this consistency was intentional on the part of Games Workshop, it provides a neat explanation as to why you almost never see anyone but a Major Order show up on some other world to participate in a conflict. In the few instances that actually do feature the presence of a Minor Order, such as the Cadian Gate background, said Minor Order was already there to begin with.

That's not to mean that Minor Orders may never operate off-world - but if they do, they may well depend on transportation by the grace of the Imperial Navy ... or their Sisters from the Major Orders.
(also, fewer ships make it more likely that it won't be regarded as a blatant breach of the Decree Passive)
Also, there are still other possible loopholes such as Navy ships being "permanently seconded" to an Order, which is how I've explained the means of interstellar transportation of my own homebrewed Minor Order.


Now, as to the aircraft:


I approve of the choice of the Valkyrie for the dropship. It's a beautiful design, and it ties in nicely with Andy Hoare's description of Sororitas deep strikes in Citadel Journal #49. The multi-meltas sound useful enough for close air support of ground forces. I would, however, remove the "Grav Chute Insertion" rule (if it's going to drop anyone in the air, it's gonna be the Seraphim).

Also, +1 for the option to take a Laud Hailer. Cue picture of a veteran Battle Sister with sunglasses standing on a smoky battlefield.
"I love the smell of promethium after morning prayers. You know, one time we had a hive bombed, for 12 hours. When it was all over, I walked up. We didn't find one of 'em, not one stinkin' dink mutant. The smell, you know that gasoline smell... The whole hive. Smelled like ... *sniffs, pondering* ... purity."

As for the missiles, I feel it would be cool if the effect of the vehicular Exorcist Missile Launcher could somehow be replicated, as I consider the "relative unreliability" to be an important fluff perk of this weapon system, and one that gives this missile weapon a very "Sister'ish" touch.
You could even have it tie in with the Laud Hailer, by describing how its launch sequences are tied to the Valkyrie's audio systems - the gunner simply holds the trigger, and the launcher will fire one or more missiles depending on how it fits best to the hymn currently being played. Psychological warfare hooray!


I'm afraid I'm not a fan of any of the other choices, as I'm just too biased in favour of the Lightning Fighter (after all, this one was the first SoB fighter we've seen ever - plus, I'm still of the opinion that the Avenger is butt-ugly, and the guys at Forge World wrote its fluff in a way that excludes Sororitas pilots, which only increases my reluctance to accept it further), as well as keeping the number of flyers to the smallest minimum possible, in keeping with established trends within the Sisterhood's armoury. I'm also looking at it from a perspective of what the most useful and thus likely assets of aerospace support for the Adepta Sororitas are, and to me that means two things:
- a transport to get their boots on the ground (which, similar to the Storm Trooper Valkyries, then also serves as a hovering gunship for fire support)
- a dogfighter to keep it safe

Much more than that just feels as if it'd break into the Imperial Guard's style of having a dedicated tool for every kind of job. The Battle Sisters having a very limited and straightforward list of vehicles and wargear is what I'd consider to be playing towards their strength, rather than a flaw.


On a sidenote, what else I would have included in a list like this would be the Dominica-pattern Drop Pods from the Citadel Journal article. Their use is highly specialised and their fluff should stress the lack of availability except for "special purpose" missions, but they might deserve to at least get mentioned for the sake of wholeness.

Wait, Sisters use grav-chutes?

Ah, no .. well, not in my understanding/interpretation of the 'verse anyways. That remark was referring to the Valkyrie profile in the opening post, not to the Citadel Journal article. Quite the contrary, in fact, as that article only mentioned the combination of Navy-type dropships + jump pack Seraphim.
I wouldn't even be certain whether a grav chute would theoretically be capable of countering the immense weight of power armour. I reckon a Battle Sister in full gear may easily weigh twice as much as a Guardsman! That's more of less a technobabble question, though, and a writer may simply decide that, yes, the tech really is capable of doing that.

I'm just not sure if Sydney included the Grav Chutes rule simply because it may be part of the vehicle's current standard profile, or if the Sisters are truly intended to use it, though?

Okay, I think there is one fundamental problem with this proposal: it takes the Valkyre, a Navy-owned flyer design, as the basis instead of the free-to-take designs: the Storm Chicken (Storm Talon) and the Super Storm Chicken (Stormraven). In my opinion, it would fit the rolling theme better if the Sisters took these designs instead of munching on the Imperial Navy. They are already borrowing Rhinos, so why not borrowing some flyers too?

So here is my take on the Battle Sister flyers:

AVENGING TALON / Fast Attack / 170 points - this one is actually based on the DA Nephilim/Dark Talon: so wings and a big central gun
BS: 4 / FA: 11 / SA: 11 / RA: 11 / HP: 3 / Vehicle (Flyer)

Wargear:
- Ceramite Plating
- Twin-Linked Heavy Bolter
- Avenger Bolt Cannon
- Six Exorcist Missiles

Special Rules:
- Missile Lock (for the Hellfury Missiles)
- Shield of Faith
- Strafing Run

Options:
May exchange the Avenger Bolt Cannon for Melta Cannon - free
May exchange the Twin-Linked Heavy Bolter for Twin-Linked Multi-Melta - 10 points
May exchange all six Exorcist Missiles with six Hellfury Missiles - free


STORM ANGEL / Heavy Support / 200 points - Stormraven coming in!
BS: 4 / FA: 12 / SA: 12 / RA: 12 / HP: 3 / Vehicle (Flyer, Hover, Transport)

Wargear:
- Ceramite Plating
- Twin-Linked Multi-Melta
- Twin-Linked Heavy Bolter
- Four Exorcist Missiles

Special Rules:
- Assault Vehicle
- Heavenly Skies (drop those Seraphims!)
- Power of the Machine Spirit
- Shield of Faith

Transport Capacity:
- 12 models
- 1 Penitent Engine

Options:
May replace the two side Access Points with two Hurricane Bolters - 30 points
May exchange all four Exorcist Missiles with four Hellfury Missiles - free


This way, you have a good (though somewhat costly) general fighter-bomber and a tough assault transport gunship. That's pretty much everything you need in the flyer section.

What a lot of great comments! One perk of being in the US is I get to wake up to fresh posts from the Europeans (and the British, if you don't consider Brits to be European: "Fog in Channel: Continent Cut Off").


WARGEAR

Sparkadia wrote:The Dark Eldar Flyers can get Flickerfields for 10 points which provide a 5++. However, they are far more fragile with 10/10/10 all round. I'd probably put the Shield 'O Holiness-ness at 10 points, due to the fact it is marginally more useful because your AV is higher.

Wait, wouldn't having a lower AV make getting a save more valuable, not less? If you're pretty sure your armor isn't going to stop incoming rounds, you're relying all the more on saves, so they're worth more to you.

Sparkadia wrote:

 SisterSydney wrote:

Can you put flamer weapons on aircraft? From a realism (ha!) point of view, you'd risk flying into your own fiery backwash..... but maybe there's an official flier out there that does have a flamer weapon?

Don't see why not. A light licking won't harm the hull at all, and it is probably given a heat-treatment to help.

Have you though of a circular turret mounted to the undersides of the Valks wings? So it can spin 360 degrees and torch stuff? Don't see why that couldn't be a thing. It would look so mean.

EDIT; Somewhat like this from Star Wars, but less dinky-looking.

Spoiler:

Yay, flamers! Boo, ball turrets! Well, not "boo" so much, but I don't see how they'd fit on the Valkyrie without truly uglifying what's a great design. You can't put them on the underside of the wings because the wings curve downward (because feth aerodynamics) and gets in the way of the gun's traverse, and you can't put them on the underside of the hull because then the Valk can't land...

Lynata wrote:As for the missiles, I feel it would be cool if the effect of the vehicular Exorcist Missile Launcher could somehow be replicated, as I consider the "relative unreliability" to be an important fluff perk of this weapon system, and one that gives this missile weapon a very "Sister'ish" touch.

A reliable Exorcist is no fun, you're right. I'd always envisioned the problem being in the feed mechanism, but since it's just a bunch of rockets in tubes, it makes more sense for the problem to be in the rocket itself -- either the motor or the targeting system refusing to work. So:

Exorcist Missile Tube: 48" S:8 AP:1 Heavy 1, One Use Only, Failure to Launch
Failure to launch: When shooting the Exorcist Missile Tube, if you roll to hit and get an even number, the missile fails to launch. Treat this as an automatic miss that does not count as the missile's "one use only": you may attempt to fire the missile again and again until you roll an odd number and actually launches, at which point it is expended.


FETH THE AVENGER

Lynata wrote:I'm afraid I'm not a fan of any of the other choices, as I'm just too biased in favour of the Lightning Fighter (after all, this one was the first SoB fighter we've seen ever - plus, I'm still of the opinion that the Avenger is butt-ugly, and the guys at Forge World wrote its fluff in a way that excludes Sororitas pilots, which only increases my reluctance to accept it further), as well as keeping the number of flyers to the smallest minimum possible, in keeping with established trends within the Sisterhood's armoury....

And my modified Avengers really aren't working for me: The Exorcist Missile Launcher is over the top, the single-shot Exorcists are meh, the rear turret is annoyingly pointless, Sisters having dedicated Strike Fighters is pushing a little hard on the Decree Passive... basically I just love that Avenger Bolt Cannon, but I'll just go put it on a tank.


GRAV CHUTES

Lynata wrote:I would, however, remove the "Grav Chute Insertion" rule (if it's going to drop anyone in the air, it's gonna be the Seraphim).

Ashiraya wrote:Wait, Sisters use grav-chutes?

Lynata wrote:Ah, no .. well, not in my understanding/interpretation of the 'verse anyways....
I wouldn't even be certain whether a grav chute would theoretically be capable of countering the immense weight of power armour. I reckon a Battle Sister in full gear may easily weigh twice as much as a Guardsman! That's more of less a technobabble question, though, and a writer may simply decide that, yes, the tech really is capable of doing that....

Actually, Codex:Inquisition lets you put Acolytes in power armor and then have them grav-chute out of a Valkyrie -- though whether GW intended that is anyone's guess. But the fact that Space Marines -- who are freaking meat-mountains -- can drop out of Stormravens using grav-chutes (explicitly mentioned in the Codex entry) means there are grav-chutes that can handle the weight.

From a fluff standpoint, jumping Seraphim out of Valkyries makes sense, but from a tactical, tabletop standpoint, you'd just have them Deep Strike -- presumably from a high-altitude Valkyrie or other transport which plays no other role in the game.



VALKYRIES OR OTHERS?

 Lynata wrote:
I approve of the choice of the Valkyrie for the dropship. It's a beautiful design, and it ties in nicely with Andy Hoare's description of Sororitas deep strikes in Citadel Journal #49. The multi-meltas sound useful enough for close air support of ground forces.

AtoMaki wrote:Okay, I think there is one fundamental problem with this proposal: it takes the Valkyre, a Navy-owned flyer design, as the basis instead of the free-to-take designs: the Storm Chicken (Storm Talon) and the Super Storm Chicken (Stormraven). In my opinion, it would fit the rolling theme better if the Sisters took these designs instead of munching on the Imperial Navy. They are already borrowing Rhinos, so why not borrowing some flyers too?

I'm going to agree with Lynata here. The Storm Talon, Storm Raven et al aren't "free to take" -- they're custom-built by the Mechanicum for the Astartes, and considered high-value assets, like a Land Raider. The Valkyrie's built by the Mechanicum too, mainly for the Navy, but there are so many around it should be much easier to get some for the Sororitas. Plus the Valkyries can be justified under the Decree Passive as "just armed transports, not really attack aircraft." And they're just cooler-looking.

That said, AtoMaki's designs for Sisterized Storm Chickens are pretty cool.


FLUFF

Lynata wrote:I'd alter the description in a way that removes or limits the role of Battle Sisters as gunners. With how many capital and small ships the Ecclesiarchy must possess, you could easily double the overall number of Sisters Militant (or rather bind half the number they have right now) just for this supporting role. After all, it's not just the sheer number of vessels that would have to be (wo)manned, but also the backwards technology of the 41st millennium that may well see a single capital ship gun require several dozen crew to operate.

The way I see it, there's several alternative solutions:
....Gunnery crews might be required to be female, but do not have to be members of the Orders Militant. They could be drawn from the ranks of the Frateris Militia, with Schola graduates who didn't make the cut for the Sororitas as their officers. This is sort of mirroring how the Space Marines crew their starships, with the Frateris Militia essentially being the Ecclesiarchy's version of Chapter serfs....
OR
There is actually a dedicated Non-Militant Order ("Orders Vectorum"?) that has specialised in providing interstellar transportation both for the Sisterhood as well as the Ecclesiarchy as a whole....

I like both these options, actually. Plus there could be the simple fact that a lot of the Ecclesiarchy's ships are just "civilian transports armed for self-defense" -- because, seriously, you can't walk down the street in most of the Imperium without a chainsword, you go armed to the grocery store -- so their male crew could man the guns as long as they're not full-time gunners. For a purpose-built warship, or a larger weapon on an "armed transport," you could use the Frateris Militia guncrew for unskilled work under supervision of Sororitas gunners, who actually aim and fire. And I like the idea of a whole order of spacefaring "non-militant" Sisters -- non-militant in the same way Hospitallers, Famulous etc, are, i.e. they're not combat troops but certainly know how to fight.



AND FINALLY

Lynata wrote:Also, +1 for the option to take a Laud Hailer. Cue picture of a veteran Battle Sister with sunglasses standing on a smoky battlefield.
"I love the smell of promethium after morning prayers. You know, one time we had a hive bombed, for 12 hours. When it was all over, I walked up. We didn't find one of 'em, not one stinkin' dink mutant. The smell, you know that gasoline smell... The whole hive. Smelled like ... *sniffs, pondering* ... purity."

Ha! Extra exaltations for you.

 SisterSydney wrote:

I'm going to agree with Lynata here. The Storm Talon, Storm Raven et al aren't "free to take" -- they're custom-built by the Mechanicum for the Astartes, and considered high-value assets, like a Land Raider.

Not at all. The Storm X flyers were pending for Mechanicus acceptance when the Astartes simply flew in and took the designs for themselves because they needed them. And the reaction of the Mechanicus? "Use them with good health, it is the endtimes anyway!"

I can totally see the Sisters acquiring the designs too and reproducing the flyers in secret manufactorum complexes beneath their Order HQs, Dark Angels style. And I'm pretty sure that the Decree Passive does not limit the weapons the Ecclesiarchy can use, only the soldiers it can employ.

 Lynata wrote:
I'm afraid I'm not a fan of any of the other choices, as I'm just too biased in favour of the Lightning Fighter (after all, this one was the first SoB fighter we've seen ever - plus, I'm still of the opinion that the Avenger is butt-ugly, and the guys at Forge World wrote its fluff in a way that excludes Sororitas pilots, which only increases my reluctance to accept it further), as well as keeping the number of flyers to the smallest minimum possible, in keeping with established trends within the Sisterhood's armoury.

The problem with starting from the Lightning is that the Lightning is an absolutely terrible unit that nobody will ever use. You'd have to completely re-write the rules for it until the only thing it has in common with the original is the name, at which point you might as well just use the previously-given Avenger modification and proxy your Lightning model as an Avenger.

 SisterSydney wrote:
Wait, wouldn't having a lower AV make getting a save more valuable, not less? If you're pretty sure your armor isn't going to stop incoming rounds, you're relying all the more on saves, so they're worth more to you.

The point is that AV 10 takes so many more glances/pens that a 6+/5+ save isn't going to prevent your inevitable death. At AV 12, where you're more likely to take 1-2 hits at most, you have a much more realistic hope of surviving and therefore defensive upgrades are more valuable.

Does the Sororitas Lightning show up anywhere outside the video games? And is it any different from the standard Imperial Navy Lightning?

SisterSydney wrote:A reliable Exorcist is no fun, you're right. I'd always envisioned the problem being in the feed mechanism, but since it's just a bunch of rockets in tubes, it makes more sense for the problem to be in the rocket itself -- either the motor or the targeting system refusing to work.

Hmm, I always interpreted the randomness to be simply a result of how this weapon it's used - the Sister on the top plays the organ, and depending on the notes she hits the launcher will fire one or more missiles, or even none. Kind of like the 1812 Overture - just with missiles instead of cannons, and used on an actual battlefield to harass enemy morale!




I could totally see this applied to a flying platform as well. In fact, it's been some time since I last saw that film, but I think in Apocalypse Now a few of the explosions and launches were timed to go with the "Ride of the Valkyries" theme.

SisterSydney wrote:Actually, Codex:Inquisition lets you put Acolytes in power armor and then have them grav-chute out of a Valkyrie -- though whether GW intended that is anyone's guess. But the fact that Space Marines -- who are freaking meat-mountains -- can drop out of Stormravens using grav-chutes (explicitly mentioned in the Codex entry) means there are grav-chutes that can handle the weight.

Ha! Must've missed that. Learning never stops!
(still sounds like a strange idea tho)

SisterSydney wrote:From a fluff standpoint, jumping Seraphim out of Valkyries makes sense, but from a tactical, tabletop standpoint, you'd just have them Deep Strike -- presumably from a high-altitude Valkyrie or other transport which plays no other role in the game.

For the Seraphim, absolutely. Those are the dedicated deep strike units, after all. But when transporting anyone else, I think the Valkyrie would simply drop them on the ground. "Black ops" aside, I think the main reason that grav chutes are used for the Imperial Guard is to protect the aircraft they're dropping from, as it shifts the risk from the vehicle getting shot down to the troops hanging in mid-air, ready to be picked off by enemy small arms fire. The Valkyrie could bring them down to the ground much faster and better shielded, but it'd make itself vulnerable. For the Sisters, however, I think this fits, because they value each others' lives more than the equipment they use (of whose monetary value they are utterly unaware as they are unfamiliar with the concept of "I have no money". Also, in this case the Valkyrie would be able to lend close air support to the squad it has just delivered.

I'm being inspired by how it was described for the Storm Troopers once:

"The Storm Trooper regiment is one of the few to have a permanent pool of Valkyrie Assault Carriers to carry them into battle. With the speed of these aircraft to deliver them to their mission coordinates, the Storm Troopers take their enemy by surprise, smashing through windows and doors before the enemy can mount an effective resistance. The Valkyries provide covering fire for the Storm Troopers as they advance towards the objective. Without pause or hesitation, the Storm Troopers sweep through the enemy-held structure, cutting down their quarry with efficient bursts of high-powered lasfire."
- Apoc Datasheet: Storm Trooper Strike Force

Sounds familiar?

Basically, what I'm trying to say is, I see the Valkyrie as a sort of Flying Rhino - or rather, a Flying Razorback I guess.

AtoMaki wrote:They are already borrowing Rhinos, so why not borrowing some flyers too?

Well, personally, because the Storm Raven is ugly. It also looks quite a big bigger, though, so I could also see it being more difficult to transport as you'd need ships with bigger hangars. One of the main advantages is the vehicle's ability to use a rear grapple to airlift Dreadnoughts, but this would be of little value to the Sisters (unless they'd have this lying around, or get to use the Centurion-inspired close assault drop armour I've been imagining).

It also kind of fits to the Inquisition Codex, which also sees Inquisitors use a combination of Valkyrie + Rhino. But I'll be honest, my main reason is because the Valkyrie just looks so much better.

I actually kind of like the Storm Talon, though. Reminds me a little of the Apache gunships. If I would add a 3rd option to Sororitas air assets, this might be it. I'm still somewhat sceptical as to how fluffy this would be, though, as the Sisterhood as a whole may seem fairly "conservative" in what they do and how they fight, if we were to consider the history of the Repressor IFV (Forge World fluff, but in this instance it actually seemed fitting). After all, the Storm Talon seems to be a very new design. Religious nutjobs hate new things!

SisterSydney wrote:Does the Sororitas Lightning show up anywhere outside the video games? And is it any different from the standard Imperial Navy Lightning?

I don't think it shows up anywhere else. Then again, it has this in common with Forge World's Avenger, which also does not seem to exist outside its own books as far as I know.

The version in DoW had an autocannon and two lascannons, which I believe is identical to the Navy version. That said ... ->

Peregrine wrote:The problem with starting from the Lightning is that the Lightning is an absolutely terrible unit that nobody will ever use. You'd have to completely re-write the rules for it [...]

I don't see a problem with this, and I think a good compromise between its Navy version and something that's more useful on the board can be found. Perhaps switching the weapons compliment might already do the job, or one or two pieces of special equipment that add better manoeuverability (modified engines?) and/or more armour (reinforced hull?). Considering the differences you sometimes find between real world aircraft, you can have considerable changes just from one variant to another, without much difference in looks!

 Lynata wrote:

It also kind of fits to the Inquisition Codex, which also sees Inquisitors use a combination of Valkyrie + Rhino. But I'll be honest, my main reason is because the Valkyrie just looks so much better.

I think the Valkyrie would break the SoB's Marines+1 aesthetic as the Valkyre is IG/AM through and through. The Chickens on the other hand share the same design philosophy as the rest of the SoB vehicles so they wouldn't stick out from the army.

AtoMaki wrote:I think the Valkyrie would break the SoB's Marines+1 aesthetic as the Valkyre is IG/AM through and through. The Chickens on the other hand share the same design philosophy as the rest of the SoB vehicles so they wouldn't stick out from the army.

I think aestheticswise, it's the exact opposite. The power-armoured Sisters of Battle look (relatively) slim and nimble, as does the Valkyrie. The Storm Raven on the other hand is fat and broad, like Space Marines, but very much unlike the agile-looking SoB.
Also, the name "Valkyrie" is a great coincidence!

The main problem with the Lightning is that it's stats make it an expendable nuisance but it's priced to a much higher standard.

If you want to keep it's stats you'd have to dock it's price down.

And I don't think the Sisters would appreciate being stuffed into a metal coffin like the Lightning when they're not exactly as replaceable as your standard navy pilot.

They'd at least want more guns on the damn thing.

Well, I have zero experience with the Lightning in an actual TT game. How does it fare, exactly? What are its weaknesses?

If we'd assume an escort role, its loadout and any modifications should probably focus on hit&run-like tactics where the fighter may lack ammunition and resilience for longer engagements, but would be capable of simply overpowering a small number of opponents with speed and "one-off punches" of high firepower... Missile packs? Unguided WW2-style rocket batteries?

Ideally, the player should be aware of it being way too fragile to throw against an enemy prepared for an air assault, but it should have the capability to swoop in and pick off targets that are not sufficiently protected, and escape before the enemy can respond?

 Lynata wrote:
Well, I have zero experience with the Lightning in an actual TT game. How does it fare, exactly? What are its weaknesses?

If we'd assume an escort role, its loadout and any modifications should probably focus on hit&run-like tactics where the fighter may lack ammunition and resilience for longer engagements, but would be capable of simply overpowering a small number of opponents with speed and "one-off punches" of high firepower... Missile packs? Unguided WW2-style rocket batteries?

Ideally, the player should be aware of it being way too fragile to throw against an enemy prepared for an air assault, but it should have the capability to swoop in and pick off targets that are not sufficiently protected, and escape before the enemy can respond?

It's an AV10 2HP flier with the following weapons:

One autocannon, one TL lascannon, assorted one use only missiles and bombs.

It's cost?

Equivalent to the Eldar Nightwing and thus much more than a Night Scythe.

So you have a flier which can't even wing some ork shoota boyz without being in fear of it's life costing more than a flat out better Necron aircraft.

Even without comparing the Lightning to Necron planes (which are a tad underpriced) it's drastically outperformed by the Thunderbolt. Its advantage lies in an extremely long-ranged arsenal (72"-range Long Barreled Autocannon, 60" range Skystrike missiles, and 72"-range Hellstrike missiles), it could theoretically see play as a hit-and-run unit on Apocalypse-sized tables with some sort of combat-disengage rule that lets it exit the battlefield into Ongoing Reserves without going off a table edge (I'm thinking something like aircraft in the Wargame video game series that drop their payloads and immediately disengage by climbing rapidly), maybe the power to reload one-shot weapons by not coming back for a turn (there's a fighter tender just off the field with capable rapid-reload crew, obviously), give it its own niche instead of making it a Thunderbolt but worse.

Aaaaagh, fighters are complicated to implement..... in part because the scale of the game was really not devised with freaking jet aircraft in mind.

 SisterSydney wrote:
Aaaaagh, fighters are complicated to implement..... in part because the scale of the game was really not devised with freaking jet aircraft in mind.

^This is why I'm annoyed they discontinued Aeronautica Imperialis.

The scale of the game works just fine for ground-attack aircraft running low and slow to hit targets in support of the troops on the field and fighters taking a pass at the ground-attack planes to take them out but the subtleties and strategies of air-to-air combat are left out since the table's too small and they'd require a bunch of extra rules on top of the existing piles of rules.

Excellent Thread. I've revised my Flyers in my own Sisters Codex. I also added a new one, the Divinity Assault Craft. It's a Storm Eagle Equivalent boasting a Magna-melta.

As far as weapons and the holy trinity go, there are exceptions that should be made. The Divintiy comes with Consecrated Rocket Batteries which are like Multiple rocket pods, but with Missile lock at half range. I also kept everything stock on the Avenger Strike Fighter, but I upped the BS to 4 and added Shield of Faith for 15 points. My reasoning being that the Sisters wouldn't want to change it the same way that Classic Car Collectors don't want modern engines in their classic cars.

My version of the Lightning Fighter, the Alto, is mostly trinity compliant ditching the lascannons for a twin-linked long barrel autocannon and a twin-linked heavy bolter. It's got less firepower, but it only costs 130 points and comes in a squadron. It's also slightly more survivable thanks to front armour 11 and Shield of Faith.

My favorite flyer I added is the Aquila Dropship. It has a semi torrent Special Rule(6" instead of 12") and functions as an assault vehicle for Seraphim. It can take a Flamestorm Cannon or 2 Twin-linked Heavy Flamers inplace of it's autocannon.

I'm sorry to say I don't like any of your proposed flyers.

Valkyries like Chimeras are not meant for Power Armour and the Sisters would not use them.

I've ranted about this before, but Exorcist Missile Launchers are unique to Exorcists and should not appear on anything else.

Check out My Sisters of Battle Codex in my Signature for all the new flyers.

I'll take a look at your fliers. And I forgive you for not liking mine. I have a much more down-to-earth vision of the Sisters than most, and part of that is less Marine-style super-weaponry. (Rhinos don't count -- they're not l33t, just rugged).


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Just posted a comment over in J3f's thread about his/her fliers (sorry, J3f, I can't tell your gender....). Everyone check 'em out!

Hmm... I think the Valkyrie is a good idea, over the StormTalon or other SM vehicle, as a Valkyrie gunship is less an overt offensive weapon and more a light transport with fire support capability. It's also fortuitously named for the Sororitas. You could probably even blend "Valkyrie" with other feminine titles and mythological names for its "stock" variants and load-outs. Like "Marchesa-Pattern Valkyrie" or something along those lines.

The idea of the C-130 with the Exorcist tube sticking out of one door is... visually, it's pretty awesome but... wholly impractical for battlefield application. I think, though, that it would be better to decide on a role for such a vehicle first, and then equip it to fill that role. If you want this to be an anti-infantry/light armor (like the original Puff), then you mount three to six twin-linked Heavy Bolters one side (the Puff would use assault cannons, but those aren't Sisterly), or a pair of Torrent flamers... mind is blanking on their name atm. If you want this plane to be a tank-hunter, then you mount three multi-meltas or a melta-cannon in the door there, operated by the crew chief (who, in other configurations, stands there with a snowshovel and tosses brass out the back door when the bolters are rockin' 'n' rollin'.)

 SisterSydney wrote:
I'll take a look at your fliers. And I forgive you for not liking mine. I have a much more down-to-earth vision of the Sisters than most, and part of that is less Marine-style super-weaponry. (Rhinos don't count -- they're not l33t, just rugged).

It's not even a matter of Marine-style super-weaponry versus rugged, it's a matter of giving a shock troops army an armoured assault transport or a light utility transport as their battlefield air taxi.

I'll work on the Storm Eagle variant more lorewise/ruleswise/modelwise, that seems like the most in-character route to take, personally, and it's more of a dedicated single-role armoured assault transport than an assault transport/ground-support gunship/dogfighter/Dreadnaught carrier as the Stormraven is.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
If nothing else the "production has begun to increase of late, leading people to suspect a secret new manufacturing location" could be part of an Inquisition plot and someone in on the plot is getting the planes to friendly Sisters.

I love Valkyries. I desperately want Valkyries to be the answer to this question... but somehow, it never has sat well with me.

Nor do I like the Storm Raven or Talon. Those don't work for me either.

My attempts to make an offensive Sisters flier resulted in the Aquila Hunter, which it turns out I never posted here, apparently I decided it was too much work to convert it out of vB code;

Aquila Hunter
The Aquila Hunter started life as a field-retrofit by Arch-Confessor Groger of Ophelia VI. Groger wanted his personal transport to be capable of properly defending himself and his entourage in case of an attack by air pirates. He was a somewhat paranoid man. Unfortunately, the additional weapons systems proved too much weight for the aircraft's thrusters, and the original prototype was shot down by a krak missile fired by an untrained cultist during an inspection. An enterprising young Lexmechanic had seen the design specifications, however, and created a variant suited to 'instil the fear of the Emperor-Omnissiah in those gutless heretics', finding the Aquila's distinctive silhouette to be reason enough to create a true combat craft.

An Aquila Hunter is a Fast Attack choice for an Adepta Sororitas army.

Aquila HunterUnit BS F S R HP Aquila 4 11 11 10 3

Aquila {Fast Attack}..........130 points per model
Unit Type
- Flyer (Hover Mode)
Unit Composition
- 1-3 Aquila Hunters
Wargear
-Nose-mounted Turreted Heavy Bolter
- 4 Wing-mounted Incendiary Bombs
- 2 Wing-mounted Hellstrike Missiles
- Defensive Skyshard Bolter
- Searchlight
Special Rules
- Supersonic
- Outflank
- Strafing Run
Transport Capacity
- None
Options
Any Aquila Hunter may take any of the following:
- Flare/chaff Launcher: +10 points/model
- Armoured Cockpit: +15 points/model
- Illum Flares: +5 points/model
- Distinctive Paint Scheme or Markings: +10 points/model
- Jericho's Siren: +15 points/model
Any Aquila may replace its Heavy Bolter with:
- A multi-melta: Free
- A Fireball Projector: +10 points
Any Aquila may:
- Take 2 hunter-killer missiles: +10 points each
- Exchange 4 Tactical Bombs for 2 Hellstrike Missiles: Free
- Exchange 2 Hellstrike Missiles for a Rotary Bolt Cannon: 10 points
- Exchange Skyshard Bolter for a Skyhunter Multi-melta: Free

Jericho's Siren: Any enemy unit the Aquila Hunter passes over on a turn it arrives from Reserves or Ongoing Reserves must take a Leadership check at -2 or become Pinned as the siren's distinctive wail drives them to seek cover from its devastating strafing runs. Fearless enemies must take the Pinning check, and are affected due to the disorienting harmonics and sheer power of the sonic assault, but may use their full Leadership score.

Defensive Skyshard Bolter: This weapon may fire at a different target to the other weapons mounted on the Aquila Hunter as long as they are within the firing arc of the Defensive turret.

Weapons
Weapon Range Strength AP Type Skyshard Bolter 36" 5 4 Heavy 3, Skyfire, Twin-linked Skyhunter Multi-melta 24" 8 1 Heavy 1, Skyfire, Melta, Twin-linked Rotary Bolt Cannon 36" 5 4 Heavy 7 Incendiary Bombs Bombing Run 4 5 One Use Only, Heavy d3, Small Blast, Ignores Cover Fireball Projector 12" 6 3 Heavy 3, Blast, Creeping Barrage*, Ignores Cover

*Creeping Barrage: This weapon functions as a Barrage weapon, but third template is placed adjacent to the second template, rather than the first as normal.

I love the siren. What's your issue with the Valkyrie, though?

What's up with the noise weapons of the SoB being better at pinning than a salvo from fully equipped Noise Marines, anyway?

Because miracles!

Okay maybe that is an issue

Because the Noise Marines don't bother with adding subharmonics to pin the enemy when they can simply liquify them.

Basically: Noise Marines could if they wanted to. But they can do better, so they don't.

As for the Valkyrie, it's partly the weight/power ratio, and the cramping issue and... well. The Valkyrie can carry 12 humans our of power armour.. or 12 humans in power armour. A Sister in full armour should take up more space than a flak armoured para.

She should, but maybe not enough to matter in game terms. Remember that a Space Marine and a Guardsman both count as one passenger ; you have to be Terminator-sized before you can't fit in the same space. I find it far more believable that 12 Sisters in power armour can cram into a space designed for 12 men in flak jackets than I can that a Rhino can hold either 10 Guardsmen in flak jackets or 10 steroidal superhuman meat-mountains in power armour whose pauldrons alone are bigger than my entire torso.

Just imagine the Sisters all sitting hip to armoured hip. Kinda snuggly, almost. I'm sure that they've long since been conditioned out of any personal space issues....


Automatically Appended Next Post:

ELYSIAN DROP TROOPER (looking into Sororitas Valkyrie): Gee, they pack you girls in tight, don't they?
SISTER KORIANDER: It's our shapely hips!
SISTER RAVEN: And inch-think armour.
ELYSIAN: Don't you need more room?
SISTER KORIANDER: Nope!
SISTER RAVEN: We don't smell as bad as you guys do, you see.
[beat]
ELYSIAN: Damn, girl.
[Elysian walks away and, as soon as he's out of sight, starts sniffing his underarms]
ELYSIAN: Damn, she's right.

And gonna cross-post that to the joke thread now....

hehe, but it's not so much about the size of the models, it's the difference between 80lbs of kit on the guardman and nearly a tonne of kit on the Sister.

Psienesis wrote:Like "Marchesa-Pattern Valkyrie" or something along those lines.

lol - that's almost subversive of you

(though it does sound pretty..)

+1 for giving me that silly amusing mental image of someone shoveling entire crates worth of spent bolter shells out of a flyer, too

"Dammit, this is not what I signed up for. I feel like a servitor!" - "Shut up and get with the shoveling, Lady Nicola says we are to fly another pass!"

Anyways, I agree that deciding on a role first is a good approach. It also prevents "bloating" by limiting the number of flyers on the basis of practical needs rather than what sounds cool (which is usually more than the former).

Furyou Miko wrote:hehe, but it's not so much about the size of the models, it's the difference between 80lbs of kit on the guardman and nearly a tonne of kit on the Sister.

Well, in terms of space, one should be as good as the other, roughly? The Angel's power pack is only slightly larger than a parachute backpack, or grav chute, or whatever, and the armour itself is only as bulky as Kasrkin carapace.

Now, if you were referring to weight limitations, that would of course be a different issue ... that said, if we were to go with the specs provided by GW in the old Codex: Angels of Death, Space Marine power armour weighs about 113 kg ("250 lbs"). Let's give the Sisters a discount for the smaller frame, but add their weapons for an even +100 kilos per Sister, or an additional ton for the full squad. Forge World has a transport variant of the Valkyrie that replaces the passenger compartment with a grappler for airlifting Tauros cars or Sentinel walkers, so it should be able to deal with +650 kilos compared to a normal squad of paratroopers (who may have only 36 kilos of kit each, as per your assessment).
Now, I usually don't place too much faith in FW fluff most of the time, but in this case I see no reason to disagree with it. Call it cherrypicking if you will.

Also, ever since reading James Swallow's Hammer & Anvil, I've grown really fond of his Sororitas version of the Tauros, and the Sororitas fielding Valkyries could then include the Sky Talon variant for airdropping them, with compatibility of spare parts and expertise shared between that version and the infantry one.

Let the Space Marines keep their Hind gunship - Sisters get sleek Blackhawks.

AnomanderRake wrote:^This is why I'm annoyed they discontinued Aeronautica Imperialis.

And Epic40k!

 Furyou Miko wrote:
hehe, but it's not so much about the size of the models, it's the difference between 80lbs of kit on the guardman and nearly a tonne of kit on the Sister.

SISTER RAVEN: Are you saying I look fat in this?

Lynata went through some plausible numbers -- I don't think a Sister in full kit weighs anywhere near a ton.

Yes, she weighs more, but aircraft don't stop flying because you add a ton of weight (well, unless you hit maximum takeoff weight), you just burn more few per mile flown and thus lose range. (Range-payload curves, I believe, is the technical term for these tradeoffs). The UH-60 Black Hawk can carry 11 troops or 1.2 tonnes internally -- that's over 100 kg per man -- but can sling-load another 3.6 to 4.1 tonnes of cargo under the hull. You just don't fly far or fast on a tank of gas with the maximum load.

I wonder if you can sling-load say, a howitzer or small vehicle under a Valkyrie? Probably the higher speed and downward-venting jet exhaust would make it unwise.

Enjoying this thread, here's one I made up a few years ago thought you guys might like it. Personally I'd go for Marine tech over IG sorry AM as it fits with the rest of the army better imho despite its err challenging looks.



Sisters of Battle, Virtue-class Gunship................................................200 Points.

BS 4 Armour F 12 S 12 R12 HP 3

Unit Composition:
+ 1 Virtue-class Gunship
Unit Type:
+ Vehicle (Flyer, Hover, Transport)

Wargear:
+ Fireburst Missile Array.
+ 1 Twin-linked Heavy Bolter with Inferno Bolts.
+ Ceramite Plating.

Transport Capacity:
+ 15 Models.

Special Rules:
+ Aquila Assault.
+ Advanced Cogitator.
+ Shield of the Emperor.
+ Engine Redundancy.

Options:
+ May replace twin-linked Heavy Bolter with:
-Twin-linked multi-melta.....................................................free.
-Excoriator.............................................................................25 points.

+ May take sponsons with Phoenix Bolters............................25 points.

+ May take any of the following:
-Searchlight..........................................................................1 point.
-Extra armour.......................................................................15 points.

Wargear:
Fireburst Missile Array:

R36 S4 AP6 Heavy2, Blast, Ignore cover.

Phoenix Bolters: Counts as three Twin-Linked Bolters that have the following profile.

R18 S4 AP5 Rapid fire, Pinning.

Excoriator:

R48 S8 AP1 Heavy D3

Ceramite shielding: The Virtue’s hull is designed to survive high speed, high angle of attack atmospheric re-entry, this provides a resistance to Melta weapons which do not receive an extra D6 armour penetration when targeting the Virtue.

Fire Points: None.

Access Points: The Virtue-class has four 1F 2S (removed if Phoenix bolter sponsons taken) 1 R

Special Rules:
Aquila Assault: The Virtue-class is designed for high speed dives into enemy territory using its speed to evade enemy AA fire and fliers whilst maintaining a lock on the landing zone. With its advanced guidance systems and powerful engines the Virtue can deliver its cargo with uncanny precision. The Virtue-class may Outflank.

Advanced Cogitator: The power of the Ommnisiah flows though the Virtue-class allowing multiple weapon systems to deliver death to the enemy. The Virtue-class may fire one weapon at a different target unit than the other weapons mounted on the vehicle. It may fire one more weapon than normal at full Ballistic skill if it hasn't moved Flat Out.

Engine Redundancy: The Virtue-class is renowned for its ability to absorb the worst punishment the enemy can dish out and still keep flying. The first time an Immobilised result is rolled on the damage table treat the result as a Crew Stunned instead.

Shield of the Emperor: The Virtue-class gunship has a 6+ Invulnerable save.

The Virtue-class Gunship is a Heavy support choice for a Sisters of Battle army.

+1 for giving me that silly amusing mental image of someone shoveling entire crates worth of spent bolter shells out of a flyer, too

Oh, it has real-life inspiration. The C-130 gunship mounted 2 GE M61 Vulcan cannons, on one side, cranking out up to 6000 rounds per minute, with an infantry-support weapon of a 7.62mm minigun with a similar rate of fire.

The crew chief just stood there with the loading ramp open and shoveled brass out the ass-end of the plane while on station, flying around in a circle while it rained hot death on whoever was unlucky enough to draw its attention.

Of real-world interest regarding this plane:

US Military wrote:The AC-130 Gunship has been criticized for being too heavily armed and providing an overwhelming display of force. However, the Air Force Special Operations Command has moved in recent years to add more firepower to the aircraft.

... there is no such thing as "too much dakka".

Another awesome Sisterized Stormraven variant from 1000 Nuns (so the Excoriator is half an Exorcist?). My problem with these is that they're too awesome: Sisters get better gear than Guard, but I have trouble seeing them with the over the top superhero stuff the Marines have. A dropship that comes in from the flank, all guns blazing with Omnissiah-induced accuracy, is a bit too much for me....

I updated my Flyers and got the link working again.

Lynta, you would like J3f's Sororitized Lightning fighter. (And, uh, Peregrine would hate it, I guess).


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Um, also I made some Imperial Navy landing craft to carry people who aren't Marines. The smaller Juno carries 36 Guardsmen (or Sisters). The bigger Overlord can carry a Baneblade.

 SisterSydney wrote:

 Furyou Miko wrote:
hehe, but it's not so much about the size of the models, it's the difference between 80lbs of kit on the guardman and nearly a tonne of kit on the Sister.

SISTER RAVEN: Are you saying I look fat in this?

Lynata went through some plausible numbers -- I don't think a Sister in full kit weighs anywhere near a ton.

Yes, she weighs more, but aircraft don't stop flying because you add a ton of weight (well, unless you hit maximum takeoff weight), you just burn more few per mile flown and thus lose range. (Range-payload curves, I believe, is the technical term for these tradeoffs). The UH-60 Black Hawk can carry 11 troops or 1.2 tonnes internally -- that's over 100 kg per man -- but can sling-load another 3.6 to 4.1 tonnes of cargo under the hull. You just don't fly far or fast on a tank of gas with the maximum load.

I wonder if you can sling-load say, a howitzer or small vehicle under a Valkyrie? Probably the higher speed and downward-venting jet exhaust would make it unwise.

The problem with comparing the Valkyrie to the Black Hawk is that one's a VTOL jet aircraft and one's a helicopter, one of those modes of propulsion is a little more fuel-efficient trying to take off than the other. There's also the fact that running from the weight figures given by Forge World a Valkyrie is closer in specifications to a Mi-24 than a Black Hawk seeing as it weighs thirteen metric tons empty (compared to just under five for the Black Hawk and eighteen for the Mi-24), and the Mi-24 can haul about half the load of the Black Hawk on 20% more horsepower; I don't think the Valkyrie's got a lot of weight to spare.

Based on the Army Weight Chart for Females and the figures given in Dark Heresy I'm estimating a fully-kitted Sister of Battle at roughly 150-160kg, compared to maybe a hundred and twenty for a fully-kitted Stormtrooper (assuming he's geared for combat as a paratrooper and not for long stays in the field); a fully-kitted Space Marine (based on assuming he's the same density as a human soldier only seven feet tall) is coming in at closer to 300kg, a Terminator is closing on 700kg (which actually makes the one Terminator taking up the space of two Space Marines thing somewhat sensible). Running with these entirely unofficial and very approximate figures a Valkyrie carrying a dozen Sisters of Battle is going to be pushing the bounds of its weight limitations and it probably couldn't haul actual Space Marines (who are bigger, heavier, and wear heavier armour), which is actually another reason I think the Stormraven (designed to carry four metric tons of Space Marines and a twelve-metric-ton Dreadnaught) or the Storm Eagle (designed to carry eight metric tons of Space Marines) are better bases for a Sisters flyer than the Valkyrie.

Damn, you've done your homework. And you're right the Valkyrie is closer to a Hind than to a Black Hawk. But I think there's a limit on how much we can extrapolate.... especially since, if I recall correctly, the Valkyrie is supposed to have enough lift to make it to space.

If a Valk has enough power and fuel to escape the atmosphere, even if not to make it to space proper (presumably the Navy mothership could come down to the upper thermosphere, where the Space Shuttle tops out), I think there's enough margin for atmospheric flight to carry 50% more kilograms of passenger. Maybe a Sororitas Valkyrie with 12 Sisters in it can't make it to space, but it's gonna be able to do in-atmosphere missions or, for that matter, drop down from an orbiting transport to the surface.

I'm also not sure the Valkyrie is a one-stage surface-to-orbit-capable aircraft just based on the fact it's got a maximum altitude of 7 in Aeronautica Imperialis (things that can get to orbit have maximum altitude 9 (Rocket Booster)).

Even if a Sororitas Valkyrie can still operate normally for short hops at low altitude you'd be sacrificing some of the vehicle's capability and running pretty close to the load limit, plus you still can't hold a full squad, whereas if you've got a Storm Eagle variant you can run with a full twenty-model squad effectively over the vehicle's maximum combat range with enough weight tolerance such that damage to propulsion doesn't mean you're on the ground immediately.

People over in the Saving Guardsman Ryan thread on Imperial Navy dropships (more homebrew!) seem pretty sure the Valkyrie can ascend from the surface to a Navy mothership (link takes you straight to that discussion).

And most Sisters squads are 5-10 -- I think of the 20 as a "combined squad" like in the Guard, especially since only basic battle sisters can do it.

We're going to have to agree to disagree: I love the Valkyrie model & its real-world inspirations, I find the Storm Eagle/Raven series blocky and ugly and yet way too l33t.

I just don't think the game provides us enough data on maximum load to rule out 12 power armored women in a Valkyrie. To the contrary, by the current rules, an Inquisitorial Valkyrie can carry 12 Acolytes in power armour.

 SisterSydney wrote:
Another awesome Sisterized Stormraven variant from 1000 Nuns (so the Excoriator is half an Exorcist?). My problem with these is that they're too awesome: Sisters get better gear than Guard, but I have trouble seeing them with the over the top superhero stuff the Marines have. A dropship that comes in from the flank, all guns blazing with Omnissiah-induced accuracy, is a bit too much for me....

Oh come now Sisters can't have too much awesome can they? I take your point though maybe Outflank is OTT though losing the turret mounted weapons does move it towards the transport role somewhat. I did think about Relentless after disembarking but it doesn't seem that useful for Bolters anymore. The Excoriator is a scaled down Exorcist Launcher (i took most of the fluff out for the post), I prefer the Forgeworld style to the GW one so strapping one to a flyer is a bit more realistic.

To add to the Valkyrie debate Imperial Armour 1 does say that the Valk is a purely atmospheric craft though it can be sealed against hostile environments, so I don't think space based ops are in, though it is an old book so make of it what you will. As for load carrying this seems to have gone up and down over various books, it has been able to carry Drop Sentinels, Sentry Guns and Cyclops Demo Vehicles over the years when it had the Heavy Lift special rule though this seems to have gone from later editions as the Bulky rules came in, so a squad of Sisters seems reasonable. I haven't got the AM codex to hand to check further though.

Eisenhorn's Valkyrie gunship is more than capable of making orbit-to-surface, and surface-to-orbit transits with his entire retinue (and in one case also hauling Imperial jetbikes), so there is some precedent for it being an orbital transport. The only thing it can't do is make inter-planetary or interstellar transits, lacking as it does a Navigator, a Warp Drive, a Gellar Field and sufficient oxygen for such lengthy flights.

 Psienesis wrote:
Eisenhorn's Valkyrie gunship is more than capable of making orbit-to-surface, and surface-to-orbit transits with his entire retinue (and in one case also hauling Imperial jetbikes), so there is some precedent for it being an orbital transport. The only thing it can't do is make inter-planetary or interstellar transits, lacking as it does a Navigator, a Warp Drive, a Gellar Field and sufficient oxygen for such lengthy flights.

Cool where's this from Pariah?

SisterSydney wrote:My problem with these is that they're too awesome: Sisters get better gear than Guard, but I have trouble seeing them with the over the top superhero stuff the Marines have. A dropship that comes in from the flank, all guns blazing with Omnissiah-induced accuracy, is a bit too much for me....

Matter of preferences! I have to say, that is exactly what I could see. Codex fluff has it on record that their "arms and armour [are] the equal of any Space Marine Chapter", so I don't see why it shouldn't go for fliers as well. My problem is really just the visuals ... okay, maybe also that I've already seen the combination of Valk + SoB in action (in DoW), and not being convinced by any alternatives so far. Same as with the Lightning, really.

Though I have to say, Thousand Nuns (+1 for the name, btw) did create a great model there. Tacking an extra compartment onto the back does a lot to fix the "fat bumblebee" look the original has, imho. It still looks a bit weird in that it now resembles a squeezed Thunderhawk. But definitely better than the original!

SisterSydney wrote:Lynta, you would like J3f's Sororitized Lightning fighter.

Hum? Using a different name then?

AnomanderRake wrote:There's also the fact that running from the weight figures given by Forge World a Valkyrie is closer in specifications to a Mi-24 than a Black Hawk seeing as it weighs thirteen metric tons empty (compared to just under five for the Black Hawk and eighteen for the Mi-24), and the Mi-24 can haul about half the load of the Black Hawk on 20% more horsepower; I don't think the Valkyrie's got a lot of weight to spare.

I made the comparison based on sleeker looks and relative size - if we call the Valkyrie a Hind (which I'd otherwise agree to), what could we compare the much larger Storm Raven to?

I also don't think we can compare engine power between a real world Cold War era design and a technobabble product of a sci-fi setting. Besides, you don't really want to tell me that a weight difference of 300 kilos (using the numbers you have chosen) is going to invalidate the Valkyrie? I'm no expert on this (even though I was in the chair force), but shouldn't aircraft have a safety limit quite a bit above its normal usage?

I'm also not sure what Forge World's specs for the Valkyrie are exactly, but I know it's supposed to airlift vehicles (how much does this weigh?) - and I know that, in GW's version of the setting, the Valkyrie is capable of atmospheric insertion from orbiting Imperial Navy carriers, as this is specifically mentioned in the Valkyrie article published for WD's Liber Apocalyptica.

And then there's this bit from the old Armageddon 3 website:
"As the dropships screamed down through Skopios' thin atmosphere the sky burned with the retro-thrusters of the Elysian landers. [...] The Elysians were taking heavy casualties and Prinz ordered the survivors to retreat back to the landers and take off for orbit."

Thousand Nuns wrote:To add to the Valkyrie debate Imperial Armour 1 does say that the Valk is a purely atmospheric craft though it can be sealed against hostile environments, so I don't think space based ops are in, though it is an old book so make of it what you will.

And it'd not be the first time that someone at Forge World disagrees with some small detail the GW main studio has published. *coughvrakscough*

 Psienesis wrote:
Eisenhorn's Valkyrie gunship is more than capable of making orbit-to-surface, and surface-to-orbit transits with his entire retinue (and in one case also hauling Imperial jetbikes), so there is some precedent for it being an orbital transport. The only thing it can't do is make inter-planetary or interstellar transits, lacking as it does a Navigator, a Warp Drive, a Gellar Field and sufficient oxygen for such lengthy flights.

Eisenhorn doesn't have a Valkyrie, he has a "gun-cutter", which is closer to a small frigate than a Valkyrie.

The description of its pilot compartment (two seater, one above and behind the other), the description of its cabin (converted from housing 12 to housing 6) and its armament strongly suggests that it's a Valk.

 Lynata wrote:

AnomanderRake wrote:There's also the fact that running from the weight figures given by Forge World a Valkyrie is closer in specifications to a Mi-24 than a Black Hawk seeing as it weighs thirteen metric tons empty (compared to just under five for the Black Hawk and eighteen for the Mi-24), and the Mi-24 can haul about half the load of the Black Hawk on 20% more horsepower; I don't think the Valkyrie's got a lot of weight to spare.

I made the comparison based on sleeker looks and relative size - if we call the Valkyrie a Hind (which I'd otherwise agree to), what could we compare the much larger Storm Raven to?

I also don't think we can compare engine power between a real world Cold War era design and a technobabble product of a sci-fi setting. Besides, you don't really want to tell me that a weight difference of 300 kilos (using the numbers you have chosen) is going to invalidate the Valkyrie? I'm no expert on this (even though I was in the chair force), but shouldn't aircraft have a safety limit quite a bit above its normal usage?

I'm also not sure what Forge World's specs for the Valkyrie are exactly, but I know it's supposed to airlift vehicles (how much does this weigh?) - and I know that, in GW's version of the setting, the Valkyrie is capable of atmospheric insertion from orbiting Imperial Navy carriers, as this is specifically mentioned in the Valkyrie article published for WD's Liber Apocalyptica.

And then there's this bit from the old Armageddon 3 website:
"As the dropships screamed down through Skopios' thin atmosphere the sky burned with the retro-thrusters of the Elysian landers. [...] The Elysians were taking heavy casualties and Prinz ordered the survivors to retreat back to the landers and take off for orbit."

No figures on the Tauros, approximating based on the Humvee I seriously doubt it weighs more than about two and a half metric tons (couple that with chopping off the armoured rear compartment and a Sky Talon's lift capacity is similar to the normal Valkyrie).

I'm not claiming three-four hundred kilos is going to invalidate the Valkyrie but it'd probably make it slower, less manoeuvrable, consume more fuel, and be more sensitive to getting shot (an empty or underloaded Valk might be able to fly on one engine more easily than an overloaded one, say).

 Thousand Nuns wrote:

 Psienesis wrote:
Eisenhorn's Valkyrie gunship is more than capable of making orbit-to-surface, and surface-to-orbit transits with his entire retinue (and in one case also hauling Imperial jetbikes), so there is some precedent for it being an orbital transport. The only thing it can't do is make inter-planetary or interstellar transits, lacking as it does a Navigator, a Warp Drive, a Gellar Field and sufficient oxygen for such lengthy flights.

Cool where's this from Pariah?

No, his gun-cutter doesn't appear in that book (if you've not read the Eisenhorn series, I am not going to say why it did not). The description and discussion on it is mostly in books 1 and 2 of his own series.

As to comparing the Stormraven/Storm Eagle to things we don't really have anything comparable simply because giant armoured heavy-lift vehicles/gunships of that sort are unnecessary in a military that doesn't have to move squads of seven-hundred-kilogram paratroopers.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Psienesis wrote:

 Thousand Nuns wrote:

 Psienesis wrote:
Eisenhorn's Valkyrie gunship is more than capable of making orbit-to-surface, and surface-to-orbit transits with his entire retinue (and in one case also hauling Imperial jetbikes), so there is some precedent for it being an orbital transport. The only thing it can't do is make inter-planetary or interstellar transits, lacking as it does a Navigator, a Warp Drive, a Gellar Field and sufficient oxygen for such lengthy flights.

Cool where's this from Pariah?

No, his gun-cutter doesn't appear in that book (if you've not read the Eisenhorn series, I am not going to say why it did not). The description and discussion on it is mostly in books 1 and 2 of his own series.

May have to go re-read it but while a modified Valkyrie capable of single-stage surface-to-orbit flight is believable a Valkyrie with a Gellar field capable of interstellar transport is outside the realm of possibility.

AnomanderRake wrote:I'm not claiming three-four hundred kilos is going to invalidate the Valkyrie but it'd probably make it slower, less manoeuvrable, consume more fuel, and be more sensitive to getting shot (an empty or underloaded Valk might be able to fly on one engine more easily than an overloaded one, say).

Well, if it doesn't make it too slow etc I don't see a problem. A difference of, say, 1-2 percent won't discourage anyone.

Ultimately, since we lack the necessary data, it boils down to whether we want the Valkyrie to being capable of this role, or not. For all we know this baby is flying way below capacity and, thanks to its overpowered engines, could transport an entire company of Terminators, with the only limitation being the size of its passenger compartment.
(yes, I'm exaggerating, but you get the idea - "writers fiat")

 Lynata wrote:

AnomanderRake wrote:I'm not claiming three-four hundred kilos is going to invalidate the Valkyrie but it'd probably make it slower, less manoeuvrable, consume more fuel, and be more sensitive to getting shot (an empty or underloaded Valk might be able to fly on one engine more easily than an overloaded one, say).

Well, if it doesn't make it too slow etc I don't see a problem. A difference of, say, 1-2 percent won't discourage anyone.

Ultimately, since we lack the necessary data, it boils down to whether we want the Valkyrie to being capable of this role, or not. For all we know this baby is flying way below capacity and, thanks to its overpowered engines, could transport an entire company of Terminators, with the only limitation being the size of its passenger compartment.
(yes, I'm exaggerating, but you get the idea - "writers fiat")

Calling ten Stormtroopers a "normal load" puts ten Sisters at about 130% of normal capacity.

All of this is speculation, but I honestly don't think the Valkyrie fits with the Sister's aesthetic or fighting style nearly as well as a Storm Eagle variant would.

AnomanderRake wrote:Calling ten Stormtroopers a "normal load" puts ten Sisters at about 130% of normal capacity.

Who says that 10 Storm Troopers are the Valkyrie's "normal capacity", though?

AnomanderRake wrote:All of this is speculation, but I honestly don't think the Valkyrie fits with the Sister's aesthetic or fighting style nearly as well as a Storm Eagle variant would.

Can you elaborate? The Valkyrie arguably looks a lot sleeker than the Storm Raven (fitting to their power armour), and the way it's used by the Storm Trooper regiment (as described in the Apoc Datasheet) is 100% identical to how Mounted Dominions operate with their Rhinos. The feminine name and its meaning is just the cherry on top.
I mean, obviously it boils down to personal preferences, but I just have a hard time seeing what exactly about the Storm Raven might look "Sister'ish" to anyone...

Agreed with Lynata.

In terms of load, we know from Codex:Inquisition that a Valk can carry 12 people in power armour without any issues that affect tabletop play. (Maybe you lose operational range, but commanders make that tradeoff when they load aircraft all the time).

In terms of aesthetics:
Big, blocky, armed to the teeth, & tough as the Hulk: Marines
Smaller, sleeker, specialized in one nasty weapon, & tough as a bitch: Sisters

Storm Ravens/Eagles are the former, Valkyries/Vendettas are the later.

Plus, aren't both Storm Troopers and Sisters trained at the Schola ProgwhateverIcan'tspellthatium?

 AnomanderRake wrote:
As to comparing the Stormraven/Storm Eagle to things we don't really have anything comparable simply because giant armoured heavy-lift vehicles/gunships of that sort are unnecessary in a military that doesn't have to move squads of seven-hundred-kilogram paratroopers.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Psienesis wrote:

 Thousand Nuns wrote:

 Psienesis wrote:
Eisenhorn's Valkyrie gunship is more than capable of making orbit-to-surface, and surface-to-orbit transits with his entire retinue (and in one case also hauling Imperial jetbikes), so there is some precedent for it being an orbital transport. The only thing it can't do is make inter-planetary or interstellar transits, lacking as it does a Navigator, a Warp Drive, a Gellar Field and sufficient oxygen for such lengthy flights.

Cool where's this from Pariah?

No, his gun-cutter doesn't appear in that book (if you've not read the Eisenhorn series, I am not going to say why it did not). The description and discussion on it is mostly in books 1 and 2 of his own series.

May have to go re-read it but while a modified Valkyrie capable of single-stage surface-to-orbit flight is believable a Valkyrie with a Gellar field capable of interstellar transport is outside the realm of possibility.

Yes, that's what I'm saying. His gun-cutter (whether it is or is not in actuality a Valkyrie... as far as I recall, it is never given a pattern designation, only ever referred to as "gun-cutter") lacks the ability to make inter-stellar or inter-planetary flight... but is able to be stowed in the landing bays of Chartist ships and a Rogue Trader's yacht, so it is definitely not the same size as even a light frigate void-farer. It's small (as Imperial vessels go), and, as I mentioned up-thread, the descriptions we're given on it strongly implies that it was, at the very least, inspired by the look of the Valkyrie/real-life Apache attack helicopter.

I'm afraid Eisenhorn's ship is a dead end if we don't know what it started life as, let alone how heavily modified it is.

As for material that explicitly refers to Valkyries, it sounds like we've got some official sources specifically saying they can't reach space on their own (e.g. Aeronautica Imperialis) and some specifically saying they can (e.g. Forge World's Elysians book). There is no canon!

At the very least, Navy will have motherships that can go down into the upper atmosphere where the air's real thin to drop or pick up the Valkyries if they can't reach space on their own. So I'm not going to worry about this overmuch.

The space-worthiness (or lack thereof) of the Valkyrie would be an issue only in the rarest of circumstances. Even if it's not really capable of space flight, you could catapult-launch the thing out of a void-faring transport ship nose-first into the upper atmosphere and then kick the thrusters on to make it down to the 13,000 meter mark (its listed operational ceiling).

Basically, throw it at a planet like a fething dart.

Well, you'd have to make sure it didn't burn up on (re)entry into the atmosphere..... and of course there's the question of getting back to the ship.

It's a Valk. It's Sisters. It's probably fire-proof. It's also miraculous that the damn thing flies at all, I'm sure the Emperor can hand-wave it through re-entry. It'd also be descending out of the skies absolutely surrounded in a halo of flames.

 Lynata wrote:

AnomanderRake wrote:Calling ten Stormtroopers a "normal load" puts ten Sisters at about 130% of normal capacity.

Who says that 10 Storm Troopers are the Valkyrie's "normal capacity", though?

AnomanderRake wrote:All of this is speculation, but I honestly don't think the Valkyrie fits with the Sister's aesthetic or fighting style nearly as well as a Storm Eagle variant would.

Can you elaborate? The Valkyrie arguably looks a lot sleeker than the Storm Raven (fitting to their power armour), and the way it's used by the Storm Trooper regiment (as described in the Apoc Datasheet) is 100% identical to how Mounted Dominions operate with their Rhinos. The feminine name and its meaning is just the cherry on top.
I mean, obviously it boils down to personal preferences, but I just have a hard time seeing what exactly about the Storm Raven might look "Sister'ish" to anyone...

Everything here is an estimate, I don't actually know what the Valkyrie's maximum load is, I just know that barring wacky and somewhat incomplete information about the Sky Talon a Valkyrie is normally deployed to carry a ten-man squad of Guardsmen which is slightly over one metric ton.

Elaborating on the aesthetic/fighting style the Sisters of Battle use boxy Marine tanks, not (slightly) more streamlined Guard tanks, my assertion that the Storm Eagle would be a more consistent-looking plane is drawn entirely from that fact. The Sisters of Battle are a close-ranged shock-troopers sort of army, who you'd expect to have a shock/assault transport like the Storm Eagle rather than a utility/fire support transport like the Valkyrie. There's a lot more precedent lorewise for dropping people with Jump Packs (read: Seraphim) out of a Storm Eagle than there is for dropping them out of a Valkyrie. The Storm Eagle's top-mounted rocket-launcher setup looks at least somewhat like an Exorcist to me, which ties it aesthetically to the range better.

The name is a point easily subject to change (I've been using the designation "Erelim dropship" out of MrSako's 5e Inquisition book to tie into the Hebrew angel ranks naming setup for my hypothetical Storm Eagle variant). The Storm Eagle is a lot less wonky-looking than the Stormraven, which I think helps cut down on the issues with the weird boxiness not meshing with the simple lines of the tanks and the more elegant armour, and describing the Valkyrie's operation as not unlike the Dominions' doesn't mean a lot when one considers Fire Warriors in Devilfish, Guardians, Dire Avengers, and Fire Dragons in Wave Serpents, Guard Veterans in Chimerae, and yes, even Sternguard in Storm Eagles can and do operate the same way.

The question of whether using Marine vehicles is "too awesome" in this case and a lot of the aesthetic problems are sidestepped by heading over to the Storm Eagle from the Stormraven; it's a dedicated primary-role assault transport/bomber that does one job very well instead of the Stormraven's wacky Ward shenanigans of doing every single thing better than the competition, and it's got a more streamlined and less bizarre hull construction than the Stormraven.

The Valkyrie, by contrast, is a gunship first and a transport second, it's got no precedent for arming with any classic Sisters weaponry excepting the heavy bolter where the Storm Eagle can run a multi-melta, the access points are cramped and look to be designed with smaller and more flexible carapace- or flak-armoured infantry in mind, it's got an inelegant and weirdly complicated hull structure with plenty of flimsy bits to contrast with the simpler look of Sisters' Rhino-chassis tanks and the Storm Eagle, unlike the Storm Eagle the Valkyrie's role as a single-stage surface-to-orbit plane is debatable and it may require a more extensive supply chain/supporting transports/whatnot behind the battlefield (not ideal for an organization that is supposed to have restrictions on their military hardware), and the Storm Eagle, unlike the Valkyrie, can carry a full-sized squad of Battle Sisters.

Much of this is subjective, but that's a summary of all the points that make the Storm Eagle a more logical choice to base the Sisters' transport off of in my mind.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also a quick appended observation on scale: the Space Marine video game had Guardsmen, Valkyries, and Space Marines shown next to each other on a rather different scale from the miniatures, since it's my only source on comparing the size of people in power armour to a Valkyrie that's not hard-to-see pre-mission cutscenes in Winter Assault or the notoriously not-to-scale miniatures range I would observe that putting five Space Marines and a power-armoured Inquisitor on a Valkyrie the way Relic did the cutscenes was a pretty tight squeeze and they took all the furniture out of the interior to do it, lorewise assuming you can fit fourteen Sisters of Battle (counting the door gunners) into a Valkyrie's hull compartment is a bit of a stretch to me.

I wouldn't call a Leman Russ "streamlined" - certainly not more than the Rhino chassis, anyways. It's also worth pointing out that the official designation from Games Workshop is "Valkyrie Assault Carrier", not Valkyrie Utility/Support Transport, and from what I can see this is the role it is being employed as.

Weaponswise, if you complain about the Valkyrie's rockets, then I'll just have to point at those twin-linked lascannons on the Storm Eagle's wings. Not that I actually see this as a problem, for with the Exorcist's missile launcher we have a precedent for Sororitas deviating from the Trinity when it is obvious that it can't fill the role (which is also why I have no problem with lascannons on a Sororitas Lightning).

As far as its size is concerned, I've always perceived it as 40k's version of the Bell UH-1 helicopters we know and love from a hundred Vietnam war movies (well, a hybrid between the UH-1 and the Mi-24, really), and if you can squeeze 15 guys into one of those, then I see no problem with squeezing 10 girls in power armour into a Valk. Especially as its official transport capacity is listed with "12" in the IG Codex.

The Space Marine videogame was made by different people, which might already suffice to explain possible deviations in vision - but I suppose it's also worth pointing out that a Space Marine is quite a bit bulkier than a Sororitas.


After having taken a look at the Storm Eagle, I also notice it's designed to carry 20 Space Marines (which probably means it has room for 30-40 Sisters), which may seem a bit excessive - especially if we were to use it for quick Dominion strikes.

Not saying I couldn't see it happen, but personally, I was looking for a fast and nimble means of transportation, not a ponderous flying fortress carrying an entire demi-company of troops. The more I think about it, though, I might actually end up advocating both (I do like it a lot more than the ugly Storm Raven), but then again we could just as well take the Thunderhawk while we're at it.

As for the rest, I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree! As I said, writer's fiat - one could spend a day conjuring reasons for why the Valkyrie would be a bad choice, just as one could spend a day coming up with reasons for why it's the perfect fit. Same for any other flyer. Lack of detailed information and canonicity means it boils down to personal preferences.

I've homebrewed up some platoon- and company-sized dropships for the Imperial Navy for those seeking to land a lot of troops at once. These are very much big boxes with wings, though, relatively lightly armed for their size, with lots of carrying capacity.

As mentioned, most of my points are subjective and if you think the Valkyrie's more in-character that's your perogative, I'm going to keep working out the Erelim (I'd build a model if there were Sisters of Battle models I didn't loathe, I love the helmets but "power armour" and "leather corset" aren't synonymous in my mind).

Please keep working on your flier -- the more homebrewing the better!

As for Sororitas armour, the "power corset" look is more in some of the artwork than on the models.

The eighty-dollar-per-squad price tag and the moulded breast armour don't help much either. I'll let you know if my search for alternate models proves fruitful.

Would it help if you think of this zippered, studded "corset" as a dust cover? As the Repentia Mistress (and some pieces of Codex art) shows, there is an array of overlapping, interlocked fins that allow greater ventral mobility (compared to the rigid Astartes plating), but that might well be at risk of collecting dust and battlefield debris.
Now, it seems clear that the out-of-universe reason was indeed the corset look, but I think it helps to realise that it may have a practical use besides simple "decoration".

Anyways, if you don't like the miniature design, I have a feeling this could explain why you'd dislike the Valkyrie as a possible transport option - assuming you have your own mental image of how Sisters ought to look like?

 Lynata wrote:
Would it help if you think of this zippered, studded "corset" as a dust cover? As the Repentia Mistress (and some pieces of Codex art) shows, there is an array of overlapping, interlocked fins that allow greater ventral mobility (compared to the rigid Astartes plating), but that might well be at risk of collecting dust and battlefield debris.
Now, it seems clear that the out-of-universe reason was indeed the corset look, but I think it helps to realise that it may have a practical use besides simple "decoration".

Anyways, if you don't like the miniature design, I have a feeling this could explain why you'd dislike the Valkyrie as a possible transport option - assuming you have your own mental image of how Sisters ought to look like?

Stick the shoulder pads and the helmet on a smoother classic-image-of-Joan-of-Arc-esque breastplate closer to the new Tempestus Scions' torsos and you're most of the way towards what I'd want to see.

So, after giving it a thought, I too realized that maybe the Chicken chassis is not the way to go. Yeah, let's say that the SoB pilot model looks pretty darn ridiculous in the oversized cockpit of the Storm Talon .

On the other hand, I still stick to my opinion that the Valkyre isn't a good choice either. It is only slim when compared to the Storm X design, otherwise, it is so blocky you could use it in a riot to knock policemen out.

At the end, it leaves me with one choice for a SoB flyer: the Aquila Lander. This was proposed before and now count me in that camp. It has some nice Sister-y features (like the cupola) and it is canonically established that the elite of the IoM uses it as a transport craft. Oh, and it is already a FA option for a SoB army. All it needs is a BS4, Shield of Faith, a transport capacity of 12 models and the removal of the multilaser/autocannon weapon option.

But I have no idea for the gunship/interceptor.

I'd be very interested in an Aquila lander with rules that didn't suck. Let's see....

Sororitas Aquila Assault Lander: 175 points
A larger, upgunned, and uparmoured version of the Aquila used by the Ecclesiarchy.
BS:4 Armour:12/11/10 Sv:6++

Force Organization: A Sororitas Aquila Lander may be take as a Fast Attack choice for a Codex:Adepta Sororitas army or as a Dedicated Transport option for a Sororitas Command Squad, Battle Conclave, or Celestian Squad.

Rules:



Costing

Psienesis wrote:It's a Valk. It's Sisters. It's probably fire-proof. It's also miraculous that the damn thing flies at all, I'm sure the Emperor can hand-wave it through re-entry. It'd also be descending out of the skies absolutely surrounded in a halo of flames.

My Guard regiment specialise in orbit-to-ground Valkyrie assaults. They use sacrificial heat shields strapped to the bottoms of their aircraft that burn off in the atmosphere to dissipate the heat away from the airframe. The magnesium laced into these shields gives off a white-hot flare of blinding light as they approach, giving the regiment their nickname of Sunshiners.

I don't think that an 'up-sized' variant is really the same aircraft at all. Part of why I have a problem with the Super-Valkyries in Redemption Corps. If the Valkyrie is a V-22, their heavier transports are Bell QuadTiltrotors - while developed from the former, the latter is a different aircraft.

So something with a similar aspect to the Aquila would be something different. ^^; But the Aquila would be a good transport for small Sisters squads as it is, if it was only a little cheaper. It's worth more like 70-80 points, not 140 or whatever.

Expendable single-use heatshields make sense as a cheap Navy alternative to Astartes-style ceramite. (Which I've taken off my revised Juno assault lander, which is also now a 6-HP superheavy as Furyou suggested).

That said, you can make significant modifications to an aircraft without a fundamental redesign. Commercial airliners and ships -- even US Navy nuclear submarines -- in particular often have a "stretch" version where designers just add in another hull segment (works best with modular designs), so total length and carrying capacity increase with minimal redesign. Likewise aircraft designs can replace engines with more powerful ones that fit in the same hull volume or under-wing nacelle -- the Air Force is doing this on the C-5 Galaxy right now, I believe.

So I envision my "Aquila Maxima" as a stretch version of the basic lander: a longer passenger compartment, plus heavier front armor and two hardpoints for missiles, and a more powerful engine to move it all, but otherwise the same design.

 SisterSydney wrote:
I'd be very interested in an Aquila lander with rules that didn't suck. Let's see....

Sororitas Aquila Assault Lander: 175 points
A larger, upgunned, and uparmoured version of the Aquila used by the Ecclesiarchy.
BS:4 Armour:12/11/10 Sv:6++

Force Organization: A Sororitas Aquila Lander may be take as a Fast Attack choice for a Codex:Adepta Sororitas army or as a Dedicated Transport option for a Sororitas Command Squad, Battle Conclave, or Celestian Squad.

Rules:

Spoiler:

Unit Composition: 1 Aquila Lander
Unit Type: Vehicle, Flyer, Hover

Special Rules: Supersonic, Deep Strike

Access Points: rear door

Wargear:
Heavy bolter (in nose)
Two Exorcist Missiles

Transport Capacity: 12 models.
The Aquila Lander may carry Seraphim.

Costing

Spoiler:

+1 BS: +10
+1 front armour: +15
Shield of Faith: +10
2 Exorcist Missiles: +20
+5 Passengers @ 2 pts: +10
Total additions: +65

Net: 110 points + 65 = 175

That looks awfully similar to my aquila Dropship. I costed out mine at 150 points since the Aquila Lander is considered to be way overcosted at present for what it is.

I was looking through Forge World and it turns out that Horus Heresy Space Marines can take a Primaris Lightning Fighter. It's an in all ways superior version of the Lightning Strike Fighter the IG get. It's even cheaper than the IG's version. It looks like it was basis for the IG's Lightning Strike Fighter and it would likely be the base for a Sororitas Lightning. It also confirms that the Imperium can produce Lightnings that can carry power armour.

Furyou Miko wrote:They use sacrificial heat shields strapped to the bottoms of their aircraft that burn off in the atmosphere to dissipate the heat away from the airframe. The magnesium laced into these shields gives off a white-hot flare of blinding light as they approach [...]

Love it. May I steal?

Hehe, I guess. ^^;

Found this an interesting tid-bit on Lexicanum, for the Avenger strike-fighter:

"It is a very effective design and is now a staple of any Imperial Navy air support mission. Due to its reputation of holiness, the Avenger is often specifically requested by the Adeptus Sororitas should they require close support in their purgations.[1]"

http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Avenger#.U2vQF6LEGEo

Of course, it's not a transport, not even remotely, unless you mounted Seraphim to the under-wing hardpoints and dropped them like bombs.

On the same note, and more practical, is the Marauder Bomber:

http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Marauder_Bomber#.U2vQ5aLEGEo

If you're intending to deploy Seraphim squads, its bay can hold up to 6,000 pounds of munitions. Replace bombs with Sisters, and you have the means of HALO and LALO insertion, with the bomb-mounts on the wings probably capable of instead carrying rocket tubes, twin-linked heavy bolters in pods, multi-meltas, torrent flamers, or basically anything else you could want for ground-support operations. In fact, with rocket pods or ATG missiles, you could conceivably clear a strongpoint of enemy armor and infantry, and replace the Bad Guys with the Good Girls via aerial drop insertion.

Standard, it's got 4 turret-mounted heavy bolters and a pair of lascannons in its nose, which you could probably justify replacing with a multi-melta or heavy bolters.

They're also capable of orbital insertion/exfiltration, so that removes the need for transporting the ship from space to the ground, it can do that under its own power and is noted to have a very long operational range... probably higher in a dropship configuration, as you'd need a *lot* of Sisters to equal 6,000 pounds.

Also, aesthetically, it looks "dangerously sleek".

I love the variant of the Marauder with all the guns up front (the Destroyer) -- the actual historical B-26 Marauder had a variant like that, too.

I hadn't thought about a troop-carrying variant. I think dedicated drop ships is more the Navy's style, since they seem to have a specialized aerospacecraft for everything as long as we're borrowing Imperial Navy designs -- which I think the Sisters would do, rather than getting Astartes "jack of all trades" gunships.

True... but if you're deploying people in Power Armor with jump-packs, then you can just mount some benches in the bomb bay and hang some overhead straps to hang onto, it's not even a major re-fit of the vehicle.

The girls in the back there are protected from cold and vacuum by their PA (assuming that the bay is not environmentally sealed during orbital insertion) and when the pilot upfront tells her Sisters that they're in the zone, the Sister Superior simply pulls the lever, the bomb bay doors open, and the Sisters just line up and jump out one at a time, engaging their jump-packs at the appropriate time for the type of insertion they're going for.

You don't even need to take the bombs out -- dammit I wish I knew how to embed video instead of just giving you the link.

 SisterSydney wrote:
I love the variant of the Marauder with all the guns up front (the Destroyer) -- the actual historical B-26 Marauder had a variant like that, too.

I hadn't thought about a troop-carrying variant. I think dedicated drop ships is more the Navy's style, since they seem to have a specialized aerospacecraft for everything as long as we're borrowing Imperial Navy designs -- which I think the Sisters would do, rather than getting Astartes "jack of all trades" gunships.

Most variants of the B25 had a big forward arsenal as well, I wonder if I can use the B25G and its 75mm cannon as an excuse to make a Marauder variant with a battle cannon?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Aeronautica Imperialis doesn't support Marauders as dropships, by the way, but that's not the start and end of how planes function in 40k.

 Lynata wrote:

Furyou Miko wrote:They use sacrificial heat shields strapped to the bottoms of their aircraft that burn off in the atmosphere to dissipate the heat away from the airframe. The magnesium laced into these shields gives off a white-hot flare of blinding light as they approach [...]

Love it. May I steal?

You’d think that if Sisters needed ablative heat shields for reentry, they’d use heretics.

You win the internet.

Aeronautica Imperialis doesn't support Marauders as dropships, by the way, but that's not the start and end of how planes function in 40k.

Doesn't need to. It's a bomber. It has built-in dropship functionality for any troop in an environmentally-sealed suit of armor and a jump pack or grav-chute. All the troop has to do is fall out the bomb-bay doors. And if we're just borrowing Navy vehicles for wargear, but fluff-writing it as a dedicated vehicle for the Sororitas, I think you could justify the Mechanicus/Ecclesiarchy taking the airframe of a Marauder, changing its bomb bays to be a passenger deck for two dozen people (with an average weight of 200 pounds, you could actually fit up to 30 of them in here, but let's not go crazy) , and refitting its weapon systems with the close-range, heavy-punch armaments the Sisters prefer for use in ground-support operations. Maybe give it some dumb-fire rocket pods on the wings (gods know it'd have the weight to spare) for area-denial/blob-busting offense and you've got a multi-purpose support fighter.

A Marauder Destroyer mod with a bunch of multi-meltas or even a melta cannon sticking out the front would be pretty badass. Depending on your interpretation of the Decree Passive, it might be a little hard to justify as a transport modified for self-defense.:

"No, seriously, we just ride in the bomb bay --- I mean the former bomb bay which we have converted into passenger space that also, uh, just happens to have some bombs in it. Yeah, they were there when we took delivery, we just haven't had time to take them out."

 SisterSydney wrote:
A Marauder Destroyer mod with a bunch of multi-meltas or even a melta cannon sticking out the front would be pretty badass. Depending on your interpretation of the Decree Passive, it might be a little hard to justify as a transport modified for self-defense.:

"No, seriously, we just ride in the bomb bay --- I mean the former bomb bay which we have converted into passenger space that also, uh, just happens to have some bombs in it. Yeah, they were there when we took delivery, we just haven't had time to take them out."

You're touching onto something rather interesting there: what if the aircraft dropped a few bombs at the same time as it dropped Sisters? The Sisters would engage the grav-chutes/jump packs in time to be out of harm's way, but the added confusion of being bombed might throw the enemy into disarray.

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:

 SisterSydney wrote:
A Marauder Destroyer mod with a bunch of multi-meltas or even a melta cannon sticking out the front would be pretty badass. Depending on your interpretation of the Decree Passive, it might be a little hard to justify as a transport modified for self-defense.:

"No, seriously, we just ride in the bomb bay --- I mean the former bomb bay which we have converted into passenger space that also, uh, just happens to have some bombs in it. Yeah, they were there when we took delivery, we just haven't had time to take them out."

You're touching onto something rather interesting there: what if the aircraft dropped a few bombs at the same time as it dropped Sisters? The Sisters would engage the grav-chutes/jump packs in time to be out of harm's way, but the added confusion of being bombed might throw the enemy into disarray.

If you could do this precisely enough you might end up with something not unlike Swooping Hawks' bomb-then-people drop, hypothetically.

That would be cool... though you could also (narratively speaking) have the Marauder come down out of the sky, swoop in low, unleash a ripple-fire torrent of rockets from its tubes, and then swoop back up into the sky while the people it just rocketed are getting back to their feet...

... just in time for a Seraphim squad to land amongst them.

 Psienesis wrote:
That would be cool... though you could also (narratively speaking) have the Marauder come down out of the sky, swoop in low, unleash a ripple-fire torrent of rockets from its tubes, and then swoop back up into the sky while the people it just rocketed are getting back to their feet...

... just in time for a Seraphim squad to land amongst them.

A Hellstorm bomb is more in-character, but that's the idea.

Yeah, but... hopping out of the Marauder into a lake of burning napalm is just so terrible for the finish on the power armor, you know? After the battle, it's a hundred and forty-seven hours of prayers and maintenance rituals just to get all the carbon scoring off, not to mention the time to re-paint and re-polish!

 Psienesis wrote:
Yeah, but... hopping out of the Marauder into a lake of burning napalm is just so terrible for the finish on the power armor, you know? After the battle, it's a hundred and forty-seven hours of prayers and maintenance rituals just to get all the carbon scoring off, not to mention the time to re-paint and re-polish!

I realize that it's not my place as a Templar to reprimand a Sister of Battle for any percieved faults, but...




++Non Nobis Imperator++

On a more on-topic note, having an aircraft drop incendiary bombs sounds extremely fluffy for the SoB and would, to the best of my Templar-y understanding, stay within the Holy Trinity of weapons, despite being mounted on an aircraft. Food for thought?

Oh, it would, I just think it's tactically unsound to drop an incendiary weapon onto a target and then immediately un-ass drop-infantry on to the exact same location you just set on fire.

when it gets hot
I light it up
(Shake it like a bad girl up in Harlem)....

 Psienesis wrote:
Oh, it would, I just think it's tactically unsound to drop an incendiary weapon onto a target and then immediately un-ass drop-infantry on to the exact same location you just set on fire.

Absent workable non-silly-sounding Latin for "fireproof" I'm going to reply "asbestos" to this one.

Ceramite, my dear Rake. The term is 'Ceramite'.

Look, just make sure the firestorm bombs are AP4 and the Sisters are laughing.

I am officially behind the idea of a Marauder Dropship as the Sisters' deep strike insertion craft now. I've been looking for an excuse to include a Marauder somewhere, they're just so pretty.

Where's my copy of Aeronautica? Gimme a sec.

Michaela Long-range Transport 360 points

Named after an ancient hebritic angel of vengeance, the Michaela is one of the few pieces of wargear openly endorsed by the Synod, putting it on a sacred level equal to that of the Rhino and Immolator, and even above that of the suspect Repressor that has come into use more recently. Originally a refitted Marauder Heavy Bomber, the Michaela exchanges its bomb racks for shock harnesses, each wrapping its passenger in a loving embrace that is said to represent the Emperor's grace itself. Once the Michaela is over the target area, the bay doors open and the harnesses detach along with their payloads, carrying the blessed Sisters safely down into the fires of the Emperor's vengeance. Particularly daredevil Seraphim squads have been known to sacrifice the safety of these harnesses and simply cling to the bay roof, their shock harnesses instead carrying a payload of explosive death to pave their way.

BS 4 FA 11 SA 11 RA 10 HP 9

Unit Composition: 1 Michaela Long-range Transport

Type: Super-Heavy Flier

Wargear:
- Two Twin-linked Heavy Bolters (nose and tail)
- One Turreted Twin-linked Heavy Bolter (dorsal turret)
- 24 Shock Harnesses

Transport Capacity: 24 models, which may comprise multiple squads.

Access Points: One (belly). Any number of squads may disembark from this access point in a single turn.

Special Rules: Plow the Road

Options:
Up to ten times, the Michaela may:
- exchange two Shock Harnesses for a Heavy Firebomb: +5 points/bomb
- Echange a Shock Harness for a Tactical Bomb: Free
Up to twice, the Michaela may:
- Echange 10 Shock Harnesses for a Hellstorm Bomb
- The Michaela may exchange any Twin-linked Heavy Bolter for:
- Twin-linked Multi-melta: +10 points
- The Michaela may take any of the following:
- Flare/Chaff Launcher: +10 points
- Armoured Cockpit: +15 points
- Infra-red Targeting: +5 points
- Illum FLares: +5 points
- Distinctive Paint Scheme or Markings: +10 points
- Laud Hauler: +10 points

Defensive Heavy Bolter: A Heavy Bolter with Skyfire.


Plow the Road: Troops may disembark from the Michaela as part of a Bombing Run. Each squad counts as a single Bomb, and their disembarkation is resolved after the effects of all other Bombing Runs (other than other Plow the Road disembarkations).

Shock Harness: A Shock Harness is a one-use item that allows a single model transported by an aircraft deploy as if it had the Grav-Chute Insertion special rule.

Heavy Firebomb: Rng Bombing Run, S 5, AP 4, Apocalyptic Barrage*, One Shot, Ignores Cover

*You can elect to have the Michaela drop as many bombs as you wish in a single bombing run. For each bomb dropped, roll once on the Apocalyptic Barrage template, but remember, each bomb can only be dropped once.

Notes: Yes, it's a flying transport. No, you cannot Embark upon it mid-game. It doesn't have Hover Mode, the Marauder it's based off is just too big! (and non-VTOL for that matter). Points costing is iffy. I've taken away its bombs and lascannons and reduced it by 40 points, but given it transport capacity and some nice rules. If you fully equip it with Heavy Firebombs, it comes out at 400 points, essentially becoming a Marauder that trades 1 Strength for Ignores Cover. Oh, and a nose bolter instead of the lascannon, which is an obvious step down, but I'd call it an Options Tax.

Also, irony: Michael is a guardian angel, not a vengeful one.

Lastly, what's the designation for the real life Marauder Destroyer? Wanna look it up.

 AnomanderRake wrote:

 Psienesis wrote:
Oh, it would, I just think it's tactically unsound to drop an incendiary weapon onto a target and then immediately un-ass drop-infantry on to the exact same location you just set on fire.

Absent workable non-silly-sounding Latin for "fireproof" I'm going to reply "asbestos" to this one.

"Inflammable" means "flammable"?! What an Imperium!

Because 'In' means 'extra'. ^^;