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I don't see how the (forge world) Infernus' mega-melta is any different from the (forge world) avenger's bolt cannon.

Seems like an arbitrary line designed to prevent us having a heavy 7 AP3 gun to me.

Hmm, personally, I think the the AMB would be more predator turret sized than the ABC. Not to mention the other 2 predator options- the flamestorm cannon and magnamelta- both ignore power armour. This would give every turret option the tank has at least AP3. not to mention that the magna melta is a 5" blast template. I personally feel that the high RoF weapon on the tank should therefore be given a higher AP. Not to mention the AMB has 48" range, so would be as good as if not better than the standard autocannon predator. 1 less S for equal range and AP and heavy 5? seems pretty powerful for a predator turret weapon to me. If the ABC was included, based on the weapons size and the ammo capacity needed, I think it would make far more sense to have it fitted on a vindicator style mount as someone mentioned earlier.

 Furyou Miko wrote:
I don't see how the (forge world) Infernus' mega-melta is any different from the (forge world) avenger's bolt cannon.

Seems like an arbitrary line designed to prevent us having a heavy 7 AP3 gun to me.

Brings me back to what feels right. Big honk'n melta feels right for sisters, AP3 bolters do not. And you are correct, it is arbitrary. We all have to draw a line somewhere of what we think fits, and what doesn't. My line is different from yours, obviously. I'm good with that.

 SisterSydney wrote:

Blast artillery seems out of keeping with the army, though, Automaki: A shortage of blasts is one of the Sisters' defining weaknesses, like S3 T3, and I'm leery of over correcting at the cost of army character and game balance.

I don't think that it is a defining weakness, more like a glaring oversight. Just look at the Tau: they had one blast weapon before the new codex hit, now they have five bazillion. And the weapons fit into the general theme: we have an overpowered rapid firing weapon (boltguns/macro cannon), the fire based ignores cover infantry killer (flamers/eradicator nova cannon) and the short ranged kill-everything weapon (meltaguns/demolisher cannon).

And LOL, I mixed up the ABC and the AMB . So yeah, the ABC is the better weapon. But I think the Redemptor still has the option for a TL AMG... Strange.

 AtoMaki wrote:

 SisterSydney wrote:

Blast artillery seems out of keeping with the army, though, Automaki: A shortage of blasts is one of the Sisters' defining weaknesses, like S3 T3, and I'm leery of over correcting at the cost of army character and game balance.

I don't think that it is a defining weakness, more like a glaring oversight. Just look at the Tau: they had one blast weapon before the new codex hit, now they have five bazillion. And the weapons fit into the general theme: we have an overpowered rapid firing weapon (boltguns/macro cannon), the fire based ignores cover infantry killer (flamers/eradicator nova cannon) and the short ranged kill-everything weapon (meltaguns/demolisher cannon).

And LOL, I mixed up the ABC and the AMB . So yeah, the ABC is the better weapon. But I think the Redemptor still has the option for a TL AMG... Strange.

I would say the magna melta is a much better 5" blast for sisters- its a giant melta gun, which fits in the holy trinity, and has a short range to balance that too. TBH, very similar to the demo cannon, but more SoB-like.
Although I'm also of the opinion that auto weapons are very similar to bolt weapons, and that macro cannons and autocannons are OK for SoB. The eradicator seems a little out of place though- maybe a standard battle cannon equipped solely with infernus shells? (FW armoured company list, I have the rules somewhere. basically the same as an Eradicator cannon in stats, but ordnance, and is definitely fire.)

Haighus wrote:
Although I'm also of the opinion that auto weapons are very similar to bolt weapons, and that macro cannons and autocannons are OK for SoB. The eradicator seems a little out of place though- maybe a standard battle cannon equipped solely with infernus shells? (FW armoured company list, I have the rules somewhere. basically the same as an Eradicator cannon in stats, but ordnance, and is definitely fire.)

Technically, the eradicator nova cannon fires a melta bomb that explodes into an inferno cannon. You can't have a better weapon for the Sisters than this !

Haighus wrote:
Although I'm also of the opinion that auto weapons are very similar to bolt weapons, and that macro cannons and autocannons are OK for SoB.

Auto weapons are basically souped-up machineguns. Boltguns fire miniature rockets with explosive warheads. Way more OTT.

 AtoMaki wrote:
Technically, the eradicator nova cannon fires a melta bomb that explodes into an inferno cannon. You can't have a better weapon for the Sisters than this !

That.... sounds appealing. Where are the rules for that one again? Codex:Imperial Guard 5th edition?

 SisterSydney wrote:

Auto weapons are basically souped-up machineguns. Boltguns fire miniature rockets with explosive warheads. Way more OTT.

Macro cannons also fire missile-bullets. The Apocalypse macro cannon fires its shell so hard, the shockwave can blow aircraft down from the skies !

 SisterSydney wrote:

That.... sounds appealing. Where are the rules for that one again? Codex:Imperial Guard 5th edition?

Yup.

 SisterSydney wrote:

Haighus wrote:
Although I'm also of the opinion that auto weapons are very similar to bolt weapons, and that macro cannons and autocannons are OK for SoB.

Auto weapons are basically souped-up machineguns. Boltguns fire miniature rockets with explosive warheads. Way more OTT.

Well, autocannons originally fired bolt-like rounds, but the technology to make the complex ammo was lost. Can't remember where i read that bit of fluff though, one of the 2 guard codices I have I think. Macro cannons are like big autocannons, and autoguns are just assault rifles, that is true.

Ah, "I had the technology somewhere around here, I just put it down, really, where did it go, dammit, honestly I'd lose me own 'ead if it weren't attached..." aspect of 40K.

Gk don't have tanks and if the mis estimation on sister's numbers is believed then the GK are a far more powerful force.
They both serve similar purposes.
So why would Sisters have tanks?

 TheSaintofKilllers wrote:
Gk don't have tanks

But they do, meaning the conclusions you draw from this are wrong. Unless land raiders don't count as tanks for some reason?

Even if GK didn't, the Ecclesiarchy can afford to buy far more tanks than it has Sisters to crew them.

 motyak wrote:

 TheSaintofKilllers wrote:
Gk don't have tanks

But they do, meaning the conclusions you draw from this are wrong. Unless land raiders don't count as tanks for some reason?

Have no idea how I forgot about "raiders.
Oh yeah! They're horrible points sinks. So I never see them, despite their model being pretty cool.
Back on topic, this is giving the sisters non Apoc IG levels of tanks. Which is silly. So the point still stands.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Furyou Miko wrote:
Even if GK didn't, the Ecclesiarchy can afford to buy far more tanks than it has Sisters to crew them.

The point goes even more so for GK, which again if there are only like 200k sisters, are a far more powerful force.

 TheSaintofKilllers wrote:
Back on topic, this is giving the sisters non Apoc IG levels of tanks. Which is silly. So the point still stands...

Guard can squadron their tanks at 3 per slot, 9 per detachment. Sisters under these rules, like the Marines, get 1 per slot, 3 per detachment. Not the same.

I was tempted at one point to let an ungraded Canoness unlock squadrons for Sisters, but I was persuasively dissuaded and revised her accordingly.

And yes Land Raiders are nowhere as cool on the tabletop as in fluff, it's really very sad.

 SisterSydney wrote:

 TheSaintofKilllers wrote:
Back on topic, this is giving the sisters non Apoc IG levels of tanks. Which is silly. So the point still stands...

Guard can squadron their tanks at 3 per slot, 9 per detachment. Sisters under these rules, like the Marines, get 1 per slot, 3 per detachment. Not the same.

I was tempted at one point to let an ungraded Canoness unlock squadrons for Sisters, but I was persuasively dissuaded and revised her accordingly.

And yes Land Raiders are nowhere as cool on the tabletop as in fluff, it's really very sad.

Just read the rules. I expected there to be a whole lot more variety, where some fluff problems would emerge.
I see no problems. I'm heavily disappointed with myself, and other people for bitching about such a simple fluff friendly concept.
People actually see problems with this?
OT but when I first started the hobby 5 years back, I saw the rhinos were 30 dollars. Then I saw the 'Raiders which were around 3 times bigger, and much more ornate and cool looking, were 60 dollars. I want what GW is smoking.

 TheSaintofKilllers wrote:
Gk don't have tanks and if the mis estimation on sister's numbers is believed then the GK are a far more powerful force.
They both serve similar purposes.
So why would Sisters have tanks?

Because unlike the Grey Knights the Sisters can, and do wage war. Huge massive purification wars called "Wars of Faith".

Plus tanks make it easier to kill those traitous Marines and soften up their armor so we can purify them with fire and bolter.

 ClockworkZion wrote:

 TheSaintofKilllers wrote:
Gk don't have tanks and if the mis estimation on sister's numbers is believed then the GK are a far more powerful force.
They both serve similar purposes.
So why would Sisters have tanks?

Because unlike the Grey Knights the Sisters can, and do wage war. Huge massive purification wars called "Wars of Faith".

Plus tanks make it easier to kill those traitous Marines and soften up their armor so we can purify them with fire and bolter.

From what I can understand these aren't very common, and by black library fluff marines are stupid tough. Like "take entire bolter clips to the face and suffer damage similar to an high power airsoft gun mag to the face" tough. That was a custodes. Or "this burly 6'6 Viking hero can't get through my skin with his massive 2 handed axe" tough. That happened to a near nude Space Wolf saving outlanders from the natives in Prospero Burns.Yeah.
So if the numbers of 200K are correct than due to the GK being hilariously more individually more powerful they are a dramatically more powerful force.

 TheSaintofKilllers wrote:

 ClockworkZion wrote:

 TheSaintofKilllers wrote:
Gk don't have tanks and if the mis estimation on sister's numbers is believed then the GK are a far more powerful force.
They both serve similar purposes.
So why would Sisters have tanks?

Because unlike the Grey Knights the Sisters can, and do wage war. Huge massive purification wars called "Wars of Faith".

Plus tanks make it easier to kill those traitous Marines and soften up their armor so we can purify them with fire and bolter.

From what I can understand these aren't very common, and by black library fluff marines are stupid tough. Like "take entire bolter clips to the face and suffer damage similar to an high power airsoft gun mag to the face" tough. That was a custodes. Or "this burly 6'6 Viking hero can't get through my skin with his massive 2 handed axe" tough. That happened to a near nude Space Wolf saving outlanders from the natives in Prospero Burns.Yeah.
So if the numbers of 200K are correct than due to the GK being hilariously more individually more powerful they are a dramatically more powerful force.

We also have Sisters protecting Cadia for the 13th Black Crusade and fighting on Armageddon. Sisters get stuck in quite a bit on things, and even if not all of them are actively in combat they need things to handle the enemy. You don't assume you can run up to your enemy's tank and break it open with a meltagun every time. It's a waste of resources (and Sisters ).

Sisters are somewhere between 21k-30k according to studio fluff. My estimates put them as more realistically being the billions (when you have 16 QUADRILLION people in the Imperium that's not a big number. Seriously, it's .0005%. If you applied the same percentage to the US that'd be SIX Sisters to a state in total), some argue maybe millions but regardless you're saying "ah screw it, the richest and most zealous organization in the entire Imperium who start crusades, wars and are a large driving factor in keeping the Imperium hating the Xeno, Heretic and Mutant wouldn't make sure they could break a few tanks?

Yeah, BS.

Also Grey Knights are a VERY small Marine chapter. One that employs more exterminatus than careful, precise Daemon removal. So not really "more powerful" but "fights a different foe with different means".


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Oh, and I wasn't talking about the BL fluff, but the codex fluff. I don't really care what the BL has to say about 90% of the game. It's an entertaining read and that's about it.

 ClockworkZion wrote:

 TheSaintofKilllers wrote:

 ClockworkZion wrote:

 TheSaintofKilllers wrote:
Gk don't have tanks and if the mis estimation on sister's numbers is believed then the GK are a far more powerful force.
They both serve similar purposes.
So why would Sisters have tanks?

Because unlike the Grey Knights the Sisters can, and do wage war. Huge massive purification wars called "Wars of Faith".

Plus tanks make it easier to kill those traitous Marines and soften up their armor so we can purify them with fire and bolter.

From what I can understand these aren't very common, and by black library fluff marines are stupid tough. Like "take entire bolter clips to the face and suffer damage similar to an high power airsoft gun mag to the face" tough. That was a custodes. Or "this burly 6'6 Viking hero can't get through my skin with his massive 2 handed axe" tough. That happened to a near nude Space Wolf saving outlanders from the natives in Prospero Burns.Yeah.
So if the numbers of 200K are correct than due to the GK being hilariously more individually more powerful they are a dramatically more powerful force.

We also have Sisters protecting Cadia for the 13th Black Crusade and fighting on Armageddon. Sisters get stuck in quite a bit on things, and even if not all of them are actively in combat they need things to handle the enemy. You don't assume you can run up to your enemy's tank and break it open with a meltagun every time. It's a waste of resources (and Sisters ).

Sisters are somewhere between 21k-30k according to studio fluff. My estimates put them as more realistically being the billions (when you have 16 QUADRILLION people in the Imperium that's not a big number. Seriously, it's .0005%. If you applied the same percentage to the US that'd be SIX Sisters to a state in total), some argue maybe millions but regardless you're saying "ah screw it, the richest and most zealous organization in the entire Imperium who start crusades, wars and are a large driving factor in keeping the Imperium hating the Xeno, Heretic and Mutant wouldn't make sure they could break a few tanks?

Yeah, BS.

Also Grey Knights are a VERY small Marine chapter. One that employs more exterminatus than careful, precise Daemon removal. So not really "more powerful" but "fights a different foe with different means".


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Oh, and I wasn't talking about the BL fluff, but the codex fluff. I don't really care what the BL has to say about 90% of the game. It's an entertaining read and that's about it.

That's what I get for using 1d4chan. Crafty neckbeards.
They're a standard chapter with 1/2 the guys in terminator armor, and a 1/3 of those being super termies.
They have around 100 land raiders, around 100 storm ravens, around 2 dozen captains with CM statlines, they're all psykers. They have acess to the hilarious Warlord calibre Stormbird, and probably have dozens stowed away on Titan.
Black Library is just as canon as anything else.

Codex puts GK at normal codex strength, so I doubt your claims.

Additionally with how lethal the GK recruitment process is, I can't image them having so many bodies.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
And with your revised post, they still have a different mission than Sisters and a different way of wagin war, so I fail to see how we need to be taking what the GK do into account for anything.

 TheSaintofKilllers wrote:


That's what I get for using 1d4chan. Crafty neckbeards.
They're a standard chapter with 1/2 the guys in terminator armor, and a 1/3 of those being super termies.
They have around 100 land raiders, around 100 storm ravens, around 2 dozen captains with CM statlines, they're all psykers. They have acess to the hilarious Warlord calibre Stormbird, and probably have dozens stowed away on Titan.
Black Library is just as canon as anything else.

And with all that, they'd still get their arses kicked if the Adepta Sororitas decided they'd fallen to chaos.

SisterSidney asked me to post my original plans for a few items that were in my fandex. Keep in mind, these are from fifth edition and require a lot of context from this thread on IGMB (which I no longer have access to due to new forum code shenanigans) since the unit was created to be part of an entire complete codex (including referencing wargear that currently doesn't exist elsewhere) so...

Transport
Adepta Sororitas Dropship
When the Sororitas need to quickly deploy from the transports that deliver them to the planet, they use these specially designed dropships. Their majestic descent from space is only matched by their swift and nimble maneuvering when on the battlefield, darting to and fro with the expert efficiency that only a trully gifted pilot could manage.
-Propoganda film, "Angels from the Heavens"

85 Pts
BS 4
FA 12
SA 12
RA 10
Type: Vehicle, Skimmer
Composition: 1 Sororitas Dropship
Wargear: Twin-Linked Storm Bolter, Searchlight, Smoke Launchers
Special Rules: Transport (11 models)
May replace Twin-Linked Storm Bolters with:
* Twin-linked Flamers: Free
* Twin-linked Meltaguns: +5 pts
* Heavy Bolter: +5 pts
* Heavy Flamer: +5 pts
* Multi-Melta: +10 pts
May purchase the following:
* Blessed Ammunition
* Holy Icon: +10 pts
* Holy Promethium: +10 pts
* Laud Hailers: +15 pts

Fast Attack
Conflagrator Light Tank
A modification to the Immolator chassis, thinly disguised as a new STC, the Conflagrator Light Tank has caused ripples in the already cold relations between the Ecclesiarchy and the Mechanicus, and the latter is still officially testing the new design even as the former deploys it in combat zones.

Cost: 110 pts (per tank)
BS 4
FA 12
SA 11
RA 10
Type: Tank
Composition: 1-3 Conflagrator Light Tanks
Wargear: Turret Boltcannon, Heavy Bolter, Searchlight, Smoke Launchers
Special Rules: Fast
May exchange Turret Boltcannon for:
* Inferno Cannon for: +15 pts
* Twin-Linked Multi-Meltas: +10 Pts
May exchange Hull Heavy Bolter for:
* Hull Heavy Flamer: Free
* Hull Multi-Melta: +15 pts
May purchase sponsons:
* Heavy Bolters: +20 pts
* Heavy Flamers: +20 pts
* Multi-Meltas: +40 pts
May purchase Extra Armor for +15 pts
May purchase Laud Hailers for +10 pts

"Retribution" pattern Boltcannon
A multi-barreled variety of heavy bolter, the Boltcannon fires more devastating rounds at a higher rate of fire. The weapon is large enough that it requires two power armored Sororitas to man it, and indeed without power armor it would require a vehicle or turret mount.

R36", S7 AP4, Heavy 4, Unwieldly
Unwieldly: Takes up two heavy weapon slots, must be operated by two squad members (the second member may not fire that round). This rule has no effect on vehicles.

Thanks for posting those rules, Melissia. It looks like the big differences between our Fast Tanks are that mine has Scout (and therefore costs more) while yours can take sponsons and can squadron.

I'm not at all sure about sponsons on a light tank, and while I once argued for Sisters tank squadrons, I've been convinced that's a bad idea that doesn't translate well from Imperial Guard to Sisters. Conversely, as people have pointed out in this thread, my giving these things Scout may be over the top too....

Otherwise in terms of weapons and armor, they're nigh-identical - except for your neat super-heavy bolter idea.

As for your drop ship, I'll have to get to my copy of Imperial Guard 5th edition to compare with the Valkyrie before I can make intelligent detailed comments. It's clearly cheaper but also less well armed. Also I think the Valkyrie is Fast, which yours doesn't seem to have -- is that an oversight or intentional?

 Furyou Miko wrote:

 TheSaintofKilllers wrote:


That's what I get for using 1d4chan. Crafty neckbeards.
They're a standard chapter with 1/2 the guys in terminator armor, and a 1/3 of those being super termies.
They have around 100 land raiders, around 100 storm ravens, around 2 dozen captains with CM statlines, they're all psykers. They have acess to the hilarious Warlord calibre Stormbird, and probably have dozens stowed away on Titan.
Black Library is just as canon as anything else.

And with all that, they'd still get their arses kicked if the Adepta Sororitas decided they'd fallen to chaos.

If we go by BL where the marines take bolter shells near nude with fleshwounds, or 6'6 Viking hero oversized axed swings with bruising, no chance in hell. At least with the 5th edition codex numbers.
Even then the Sisters have no counter to the likely dozen GK battlebarges, and dramatic amounts of warlord sized Stormbirds.

Actually, it turns out there is support in fluff for the Ecclesiarchy having warships, though probably nothing like a battle barge. In any case the Ecclesiarchy's solution to most major problems is to wrap a hard core of Sisters in a vast ablative mass of expendable Frateris Militia loonies. The GK would probably just run out of ammo....

But (a) I've never even read the Grey Knights codex and (b) we are drifting dangerously off topic. Let's agree it's a shame and frankly implausible that GK don't get proper turreted tanks, same as the Sisters to date, and go back to fixing the Sisters' list. If someone wants to make a GK Predator with Aegis, psychic powers, and autocannon rounds made entirely from the souls of orphan children, that would be an awesome topic for another thread.

[Edited repeatedly to fix typos and unclosed tags. I'm doing this on a tiny iPhone screen in the corner of an antique shop while my beloved wife browses....]

 SisterSydney wrote:
I'm not at all sure about sponsons on a light tank, and while I once argued for Sisters tank squadrons, I've been convinced that's a bad idea that doesn't translate well from Imperial Guard to Sisters.

Meh. They're just light tanks, it's not like they're having squadrons of leman russes if this is added in-- while the Sponsons objection might be applicable, I think it's fine in squadrons.. Mind you, I did suggest a leman russ which could be squadroned for my fandex, but the fandex also has additional fluff to justify it.

 SisterSydney wrote:
IAs for your drop ship, I'll have to get to my copy of Imperial Guard 5th edition to compare with the Valkyrie before I can make intelligent detailed comments. It's clearly cheaper but also less well armed. Also I think the Valkyrie is Fast, which yours doesn't seem to have -- is that an oversight or intentional?

It's intentional. The idea is that it is primarily designed to land and drop off troops whiel providing light fire support, not to be close air support (which would be stepping too much on the Navy's toes).

Ok, but apparently the Ecclesiarchy has some ships of its own.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I'm going to take everyone's suggestions and rewrite the tanks shortly, but in the meantime, um, I made some Sororitas bikers and stuff, please check it out -- everyone here has been helpful and I'd love your help over there.

I've revised my tanks to incorporate many of the good comments in this thread & to bring them in line with the new digital Codex, where apparently Shield of Faith on a Rhino costs 5 points.

In brief:
- Oriflamme Scout Tank: basically an underarmoured Hellhound that has BS:4 and can Scout (and therefore costs more).
- Sororitas Predator: Basically a Predator Infernus that can upgrade to an Inferno Cannon (as on the IG Devil Dog) or, worse yet, a cut-down, shorter-ranged version of the Avenger Bolt Cannon (yes, the thing that Navy strike fighters carry).
- Exorcists get a host of alternative ammo options, including small blasts, Skyfire, extended range, and a short-range “melta missile” with Armourbane.
- Firing flamers at Cruising Speed is back! (“Drive-By Purification” SR).

Army Special Rule:
Drive-By Purification
Adepta Sororitas tank gunners are masters of high-speed flamer shots.
Any Adepta Sororitas Tank that is not a Fast vehicle may fure one Template weapon when moving at Cruising Speed
(Yes, this applies to the Immolator. Have fun!}


Vehicles

Oriflamme Scout Tank (Fast Attack): 150 points
Oriflamme BS:4 Armour:12/11/10 Hull Points:3


Sororitas Predator (Heavy Support): 100 points
Sororitas Predator: BS4 Armour: 13/11/11 Hull Points:3


Exorcist alternative ammunition
Any Exorcist may load its Exorcist Missile Launcher with one and only one of the following types of ammunition, changing the weapon’s profile:

Lots of cool stuff

Not totally clear how the Exorcist ammo works - do you just select one and that replaces the normal missiles or is the single choice in addiiton to this?

I Wonder if we could get an Assault vehicle:
Liberationem Class Assault Transport