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2013/09/21 15:44:38
Subject: Canoness-Marshal Minerva -- a Special Character for the Sisters of battle
In the Sisters' current Codex, the only special characters are two cranky old men and a repeatedly resurrected martyr whose very existence is a miracle. As Troike wrote in this thread, what's missing is an example of the heights that a mortal Sister can reach with talent, training, and the blessing of the Emperor. What follows is my attempt to fill this gap, a cool-headed and cunning tactician to serve as counterpoint to Saint Celestine's passionate fervor to assault the foe.
Canoness-Marshal Minerva: 250 points (played by Cate Blanchett)
[EDIT: I've redesigned her significantly & lowered the cost -- scroll down to see.]
Background
Spoiler:
Minerva Katrina Demedikus entered the Schola Progenium at the relatively late age of nine years old. The sheltered only child of a high-born Administratum family, she had been orphaned when Chaos Cultists assassinated both her parents nearly a year before. She need never have entered the Schola at all, but after protracted legal battles among her relatives over who would get to be the guardian of the orphaned girl -- and of her vast inheritance -- her extended family could argee on just one thing: it would be best for Minerva to go to the Schola Progenium and, incidentally, renounce her fortune. They did, at least, assuage their consciences by making a sizable donation to her Schola to ensure she was treated as befit her rank. Minerva's special privileges and aloof manner won her few friends at Schola. While she was a superb scholar, she was badly behind on combat skills. Her piety and intelligence won her a place in the Adepta Sororitas, with the Ordo Famulous and Ordo Dialogous both vying to recruit her, but she surprised everyone by pulling every string she could to become a novice of the Sisters of Battle. Minerva was almost as unpopular in the Novitiate as she had been in the Schola, but she bore down and caught up in the martial while continuing to excel in academics, particularly military history. When she became a full Sister, her scholarship, high birth, and social polish secured her a plum position as a personal aide to the Canoness of a Minor Order called the Grey Sisterhood. For two years, Minerva was an unexceptional Sister in an unexceptional Order. Then a Dark Eldar raid on the Grey Sister's convent killed the Canoness and the entire command staff in the first give minutes -- except for Minerva. Crawling bloodstained from the rubble of the Order's war room, Minerva used her access to the Canoness's code keys to take command of the survivors and organize a desperate defense of the smoking ruins of the convent. Her icy calm quieted the panic in her Sisters and her tactical skills kept the Eldar at bay until reinforcements arrived from the Order of the Razor Rose. A mid-sized but well-funded and heavily mechanized Order, the Razor Rose was typically deployed as the local Cardinal's quick-reaction force. Their Canoness, Pallas Atenne, took one look at the wreckage and absorbed the few surviving Grey Sisters into her own Order under the command of Minerva, who she promoted to Palatine on the spot. (Pallas was technically exceeding her authority, but the Cardinal rubber-stamped his favorite Canoness's decision within days and then rebuffed all protests from the Grey Sisters' parent order). Minerva soon proved her worth in one campaign after another, and when Canoness Pallas died in battle eight years later, she left a sealed letter naming Minerva -- not yet thirty -- as her successor. Today, Minerva is one of the most respected and most feared commanders in the Segmentum. While retaining command of the Razor Roses, she has repeatedly led task forces drawn from multiple Orders, Planetary Defense Forces, the Imperial Guard -- in which she holds the rank of Lady Marshal -- and even Space Marines, typically Black Templars but, on one memorable and awkward occasion, an entire Great Company of Space Wolves. She has commanded such disparate forces, although she has rarely won their love, by force of will, shrewd diplomacy, and occasional flashes of charm, all backed by an incontestable track record for achieving Imperial objectives with minimum casualties. "You can't argue with success," one Imperial Guard general said of Minerva. "Well, success and an Inferno Pistol pointed at your face."
Blessed Armour Finely crafted, exquisitely decorated, and hallowed by the pious valour of past wearers, this superb suit of power armour grants the wearer a 2+ armour save.
When the Lord General Militant leading the Navarre Campaign presented Canoness Minerva with an ancient marshal's baton as a symbol of her authority to command regiments of the Imperial Guard, no one thought of it as anything other than a venerable relic of obscure origin. Then, as Minerva directed her forces from atop a ridgeline during the fighting for Navarre IV, a huge winged Tyranid landed amidst her staff. Minerva's aides scattered, but the Canoness herself snapped "Can't you see I'm busy?" and backhanded the beast with the baton. Imperial publications say Minerva killed it with that one blow; the Canoness herself insists she simply stunned it so her bodyguards could recover their wits and hack it to pieces. Whatever the truth, the baton has some extraordinary powers, at least in Minerva's hands.
Special Rules: [EDIT: the unique SRs have been extensively rewritten based on all sorts of great feedback from commenters in this & other threads -- scroll down to see them] Act of Faith: Fear No Evil* Act of Faith: Grand Anathema* Acts of Faith Adamantium Will Independent Character Inspirational Leader* Maneuver Warlord* Mechanized Commander* No Repentia* Shield of Faith
* Unique Special rules:
Spoiler:
Act of Faith: Fear No Evil This Act may be used in any phase. If successful, Minerva and all units within 6" of her gain the Fearless special rule until the end of the phase.
Act of Faith: Grand Anathema This Act of Faith may be used in any phase. If successful, designate any one enemy unit within 12" of Minerva: All friendly models gain Preferred Enemy against the anathemized enemy until the end of the phase.
Inspirational Leader Canoness Minerva and any unit she has joined gain +1 on rolls to perform Acts of Faith.
Maneuver Warlord If Minerva is part of your army, she is automatically your Warlord. However, she does not roll for Warlord traits, instead having the following unique abilities: - During deployment, choose a single vehicle, vehicle squadron, or dedicated transport from Minerva's detachment. That unit (and any passengers aboard) counts as having the Outflank special rule. - As long as Minerva is alive, any unit from her detachment using the Outflank rule also gains the Acute Senses special rule. - As long as Minerve is alive, whenever either side rolls for reserves, her player may compel a reroll, regardless of whether the original result was success or failure.
Mechanized Commander: Any detachment containing Canoness-Marshal Minerva may take squadrons of 1-3 Predator Infernus tanks and/or squadrons of 1-3 Exorcists. Each such squadron counts as a single Heavy Support choice.
No Repentia: "Some of you have committed crimes beyond all forgiveness. You do not deserve the chance at an honorable death. [BLAM. BLAM. BLAM.] The rest of you will redeem yourselves in regular units like the rest of us. Get some fething clothes on and get back in the line." -- Canoness-Marshal Minerva to a Repentia squad before the battle of Bartolamaeus. Any detachment that includes Minerva may not include any Repentia.
Design notes:
Spoiler:
[EDIT: This costing is for the original version and is now obsolete.] Start with the current (arguably overpriced) 65-point Canoness. Then: +15 points for, essentially, artificer armour, gained a 2+ save. Note that her statline is otherwise unchanged from the basic Canoness. +15 points for the Inferno Pistol (since a pair costs Seraphim 30 pts). +30 points for a unique power weapon. +30 points for the new Heavy Support choices from Mechanized Commander. +95 points for Maneuver Warlord and the extra Act of Faith, which together are a bit better than the 90-point upgrade from a regular Imperial Guard Company Commander to Creed: Creed gets to make one unit Scout, she makes only them Outflank, but she also gives Acute Senses to her entire detachment; he gets an extra Order, she gets an extra Act of Faith; and instead of rolling for Warlord traits as Creed would, she gets what's basically a double-strength version of Strategic Genius.
Edited to add links.
This message was edited 5 times. Last update was at 2013/10/05 19:43:20
BURN IT DOWN BURN IT DOWN BABY BURN IT DOWN
Psienesis wrote: Well, if you check out Sister Sydney's homebrew/expansion rules, you'll find all kinds of units the Sisters could have, that fit with the theme of the Sisters (as a tabletop army) perfectly well, and are damn-near-perfectly balanced.
I'm assuming that the artificier armor is what gives the 6+ invul save? if so you left that part out of your description. other than that, i see nothing wrong with it, as at 250 pts she costs more than Eldar Phoenix Lords, but then i'm only just starting out in Sisters and have yet to play a game with them. (still need a few more models to play them).
fav movie quotes: "Well let's put her in charge man! - - "Step up to red alert." "Are you sure sir? It does mean changing the bulb." - - "The escape pods not an option, it escaped last Thursday."
Kirasu - Q: What comes out of an Eldar cocoon? A: Corsair butterflies!
2013/09/21 17:08:29
Subject: Re:Canoness-Marshal Minerva -- a Special Character for the Sisters of battle
SebastionSynn wrote: I'm assuming that the artificier armor is what gives the 6+ invul save? if so you left that part out of your description. other than that, i see nothing wrong with it, as at 250 pts she costs more than Eldar Phoenix Lords, but then i'm only just starting out in Sisters and have yet to play a game with them. (still need a few more models to play them).
The 6++ is from Shield of Faith(I think thats what its called).
Tone down the Warlord trait and you can make her a bunch cheaper!
Lucarikx
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/09/21 17:08:33
2013/09/21 17:38:53
Subject: Canoness-Marshal Minerva -- a Special Character for the Sisters of battle
Looking pretty good! I like the fluff for her. Suitably badass, just what would be appropriate for a Canoness character. The emphasis on vehicles and outflanking is also nice, gives some flexibility and goes with her fluff as being a tactical gen- tactically adept.
A few things:
- Nitpicky, but you may want to make a small addendum to the "Inspirational Leader" rule. Independant characters already add a +1 on AoF rolls when they join a squad. You may want to clarify in the rule's description that it stacks with that existing bonus.
- The Repentia thing: not sure that a Canoness would go around killing Repentias, or just suddenly accepting them back as actual Sisters. It is a very well established practice in the Orders Militant. All of the Major Orders do it, and they even appoint Mistresses to watch over the Repentias and decide when they are redeemed. It's all very official and that. Was there a gameplay reason you didn't want them in, perhaps? Like them not fitting with her playstyle? If so then by all means keep it, just not sure about the current fluff behind it.
Order of the Righteous Armour - 542 points so far.
2013/09/21 18:14:00
Subject: Canoness-Marshal Minerva -- a Special Character for the Sisters of battle
Lucarikx wrote: The 6++ is from Shield of Faith(I think thats what its called).
Exactly. I'd rather have the C:WH anti-psyker defenses instead of the 6++ , or better yet both (gotta keep up with that codex creep), but it's the default for Sisters as of now. Until I write a whole fandex....
Lucarikx wrote: Tone down the Warlord trait and you can make her a bunch cheaper!
True, but I want the warlord traits to be crazy awesome. The game has tons of HQs who are monsters in hand-to-hand combat, but very few (e.g. Creed, excuse me, CREEEEED) who actually perform the function of a headquarters officer, which is to command. I want Minerva to be to buffing your whole army what most SCs are to buffing your assault units.
Troike wrote: - Nitpicky, but you may want to make a small addendum to the "Inspirational Leader" rule. Independant characters already add a +1 on AoF rolls when they join a squad. You may want to clarify in the rule's description that it stacks with that existing bonus.
Actually, in the White Dwarf codex, you get a +1 only "if the unit has been joined by at least one of the following special characters," and then it lists them. (Frankly, I think defining "inspirational leader" as a unique SR for the whole army would be a lot tidier). So "Inspirational Leader" is just to add Minerva to that list; it doesn't grant an additional +1.
She's not more inspiring than the average Canoness, anyway, she's just smarter.
Troike wrote: The Repentia thing: not sure that a Canoness would go around killing Repentias, or just suddenly accepting them back as actual Sisters. It is a very well established practice in the Orders Militant. All of the Major Orders do it, and they even appoint Mistresses to watch over the Repentias and decide when they are redeemed. It's all very official and that. Was there a gameplay reason you didn't want them in, perhaps? Like them not fitting with her playstyle? If so then by all means keep it, just not sure about the current fluff behind it.
A good point, and I was unsure about it. The thematic reason is that Minerva (remember who she's named after) represents the rational, calculating part of the Adepta Sororitas, the kind that doesn't want to die in the name of the Emperor nearly as much as it wants to make the other guy die in the name of the Emperor. Repentia -- and Celestine for that matter -- are the opposite: They fling themselves headlong into battle, propelled by pious fervor (especially before Rage changed for 6th) and headless of casualties. Fluff-wise, I don't see Minerva feeling comfortable with a unit that she can't be sure will stick with her plan -- although of course I also say she more or less commanded Space Wolves once. Game-balance-wise, it's not such a big deal, although it does help offset the option to take so many fething tanks.
I'll ponder. If anything, writing makes me realize that you shouldn't be able to take both Minerva and Celestine, since they're so different and so powerful: An army led by Minerva would probably never reach the state of pious fervor and/or desperation that would "summon" Celestine to save them.
BURN IT DOWN BURN IT DOWN BABY BURN IT DOWN
Psienesis wrote: Well, if you check out Sister Sydney's homebrew/expansion rules, you'll find all kinds of units the Sisters could have, that fit with the theme of the Sisters (as a tabletop army) perfectly well, and are damn-near-perfectly balanced.
Canoness 65
+Artificer Armour +20
+Inferno Pistol +15
+Marshals Baton:
+Power Maul +10
+1AP +10
+Monster Hunter +10
+Adamantium Will +10
+Fearless AoF +10
+Prefered Enemy Aof +20
+1 to AoF +5
+Outflank +10
+Acute Senses +10
+Rerolls +15
+non-dex vehicles +10
+being able to take those as squadrons +10
+squadroning exorcists +10
Total: 240
Second, critique:
I don't think should be able to squadron Exorcists, or take the Predators, it just doesn't... feel right.
Plus being able to take 9-18 exorcists is crazy!
Next, I'm fairly sure it's the ecclesiarchy that declares a person penitent (or they decide themselves, and go to them), but it's certainly something that would be out of the Canonesses hands at any rate. - I could be wrong on that, but I think that's how it works.
Besides, penitent stuff is pretty awesome.
First of all, many thanks for the detailed cost breakdown -- is there a standard cost list for various SRs that you're using, or is it simply educated judgment?
On Repentia, I see your point. As a treadhead, I've long thought the Sisters deserved their own main battle tank -- the Exorcist isn't one, it's a lightly armored tank destroyer with no turret -- preferably one optimized for relatively close-quarters urban warfare like the rest of their weapons, and the Infernus seems very appropriate (though I'd like to redesign it with a "bustle" of extra armor on engine deck to up rear protection to AV11, it's too easy for enemies to get behind you with krak grenades in the city). Leman Russ is sadly out, because all their other vehicles are Rhino variants.
Finally, I presume 18 Exorcists is double FOC only, right?
BURN IT DOWN BURN IT DOWN BABY BURN IT DOWN
Psienesis wrote: Well, if you check out Sister Sydney's homebrew/expansion rules, you'll find all kinds of units the Sisters could have, that fit with the theme of the Sisters (as a tabletop army) perfectly well, and are damn-near-perfectly balanced.
I will be designing a main tank for them once I've got reviews on some of my other stuff now that I'm not so busy. It's on my list, with several other things.
18 Exorcists is double FoC only, but it's still nuts. xD
The costing is from years of experience, though I can give you the basics of the linear costing system: Because I've been meaning to type up a more comprehensive 'how to' guide for a while (people keep asking), I'll give you a full breakdown here.
Ovion's Unit Creation Guide:
To make an effective Unit / Fandex / Supplement / Extended Codex, you first need a solid idea. Without a driving force behind it and a goal for the unit, you'll pile on WAY too much junk.
You then need to really, for the most part, balance them really well - I mean, basic marines, but with a few special characters or a couple of changes here and there is fine. Basic Marines all with Thunder Hammers and Lascannons, less so. (I'd like to see a unit of basic marines, or sisters, all armed with Two bolt Pistols to be honest, and may have to make one myself.)
And be sure to cost everything accordingly, even over cost it to ensure people are happy to play it.
As a general rule, each upgrade (+/-1stat, +/-1USR, etc) is 10pts. Leadership is 5pts per +/-1. All wargear, or anything there's an equivalent item for already, use that items cost, use the latest 'universal' price for it you can. Eternal Warrior is 35pts. (As set in the Space Wolves Codex, and confirmed in the Black Legion Supplement and Codex: Space Marines)
This is Per Model for HQs / Monstrous Creatures / Single Model Units / Vehicles, per 3 Models for elite troops (usually the ones that are between 3 and 10 for unit size), and per 5 models for basic troops (anything with 10+ models in the unit is usually basic). Though you know what's elite infantry and what's basic when you're making it.
Certain weapons / rules, you can divide the cost by the average use. For example, the Amaranthine USR I created for everyones use, is basically Eternal Warrior with a dice roll. The standard is Amaranthine 5+, it stops instant death 1/3 of the time, so it costs 1/3 of Eternal Warrior (12pts)
Conversely, if you confer things to groups, you need to cost it by the 'average' amount of that thing. So if your character gives every character in your army a 'free' Power Weapon (this is an extreme example), you've got assume the average army is going to have at least 5 characters (1 HQ, 2 Troop, 2 other), more likely 6-8, and remember in a 'standard' army, you can have up to 17 units. But we'll call it 6. Power Weapon is 15pts each, so the rule costs 90pts.
Other things require guessing, testing and/or experience (having a feel for a thing)
Furthermore, lay out the units VERY clearly, include all the rules, make sure all the rules and gear are in the unit entry, then any unique rules and gear are listed underneath. This gives a clear, concise picture of what it actually has, what are options, etc.
For example: Repentia Superior Name at top, so we know what we're looking at.
Spoiler:
Make sure to put the unit in a spoiler, starting after the first name, it makes it neater on the forum, and stops everything from being WALL OF TEXTy, and makes quotes easier. Army: Sisters of Battle The Army the unit belongs to clearly stated at the top. It matters less in a thread dedicated to that army, but it helps, especially in multiple-unit/army threads, and if printed as a single sheet for opponents, it makes it instantly clear what army it's for. BG: Repentia Superior are longer served and more scarred than their sisters, maybe bearing some form of bionics, and more heraldry. Likely they could have been redeemed and rejoined ranks, but they don't see themselves as such so continue on their path. And for those within the Order Penitent, there's no chance for redemption anyway, just a few more days fighting the enemy. Background at the top, to give you the details on just what the unit your about to read is, so people know why it has what it does.
FO: N/A Always include where it goes in the Force Org Chart. Always. Squad: Repentia Superior Fairly Self explanatory, you have it at the top - but this makes it look more professional. You may replace any Mistress of Repentance with a Repentia Superior This is a special rule that details where it goes, you won't normally have this, but when you have such rules, they go here. Unit: Repentia Superior, Points Per: 20, Models: 1, Unit Type: Infantry (Character), Fairly straight forward, Unit Name (model), points of each, number you can take (unique units are marked with a *), and the unit type. This, with the stats and wargear / special rules section, want to be repeated for each different model in a complex unit. WS-4, BS-4, S-3, T-3, W-2, I-3, A-3, Ld-9, Sv-6+*. Statline. Core of the unit, make it clear and easy to read. Invulnerable Saves are marked with a *. Force org changing rules, unit restrictions, etc, would go here. Wargear: Wargear section, listing ALL the wargear. Eviscerator As you can see, each item gets a different line. Frag Grenades This makes it easier to read quickly, and harder to miss things. Krak Grenades
Special Rules: Special Rules section, as above, list everything, on its own line. ( C: Precision Shots ) While you don't have to, I like listing the rules conferred by other things. ( C: Precision Strikes ) It helps you remember the little extras given by things, and shows your opponent what gives it what. ( C: Look Out, Sir (4+) ) Simplest method is brackets, initials of the rule/item giving it the rule, then the rule. Acts of Faith Fearless Feel No Pain Fleet Rage Shield of Faith Soul of the Martyr Zealot ( Z: Fearless ) List these conferred rules in the order they are given. ( Z: Hatred ) This usually means things granted by unit type are first, then wargear, then other rules.
Soul of the Martyr: And then underneath the unit entries, you put any new / unique rules and gear. In this case, it's just the one special rule. The Repentia Superior and her make one final push to repay their enemy in kind. This Act of Faith is used in the Assault Phase. If successful, do not remove any models in the unit if they are killed before they have attacked. Instead place them on their side. After all other models involved in the assault have made their attacks, any mortally injured model placed on its side gets to make its full attacks, with no bonuses for charging. After these attacks have been made, any models on their side are removed as casualties. I also like to start a new line after each full stop / period. It breaks up blocks of text a little, making it a little easier to read.
Always run a costing yourself, so that before you put it up, you can have a solid idea on what its points should be.
Continuing the Repentia Superior example: Costing
Spoiler:
Base: Repentia - 17 +1W +10/3 +1A +10/3 +1Ld +5/3 +Zealot +10/3 +Soul of the Martyr +40/3
Total: 42. -22pts for Mistress of Repentance: 20pt upgrade. Now, this was a tricky one, Soul is 4 times as effective as Spirit, so I decided to cost it at 40, but it's still Elite Infantry, so the cost is distributed across '3'.
Obviously this isn't everything to making units, some of it is just practice and experience. And maybe the Repentia Superior wasnt the best choice for an example in some ways, but in others it shows the 'fuzzy math' needed quite nicely.
There are limits to the 'linear' system, some things rules are more effective for / rarer, and other it's less effective / more common, but normally, these even out, and the overall price ends up 'feeling' right. I'm working on a 'non-linear' system, but it's slow going, and may not be worth the effort.
Templates for units can be found here Standard Unit Derisors, for default rules conferred by unit types, can be found here I hope this helps!
This message was edited 4 times. Last update was at 2013/11/19 15:08:29
SisterSydney wrote: Actually, in the White Dwarf codex, you get a +1 only "if the unit has been joined by at least one of the following special characters," and then it lists them. (Frankly, I think defining "inspirational leader" as a unique SR for the whole army would be a lot tidier). So "Inspirational Leader" is just to add Minerva to that list; it doesn't grant an additional +1.
Ah, I see what you mean.
Personally, I quite like it being in the front of the book. That way it's in with the other factors, martrydom and having a squad leader. Everything that can affect your faith rolls is right there for quick reference.
SisterSydney wrote: A good point, and I was unsure about it. The thematic reason is that Minerva (remember who she's named after) represents the rational, calculating part of the Adepta Sororitas, the kind that doesn't want to die in the name of the Emperor nearly as much as it wants to make the other guy die in the name of the Emperor. Repentia -- and Celestine for that matter -- are the opposite: They fling themselves headlong into battle, propelled by pious fervor (especially before Rage changed for 6th) and headless of casualties. Fluff-wise, I don't see Minerva feeling comfortable with a unit that she can't be sure will stick with her plan -- although of course I also say she more or less commanded Space Wolves once. Game-balance-wise, it's not such a big deal, although it does help offset the option to take so many fething tanks.
I don't see any issue with her just not wanting to work with them. Maybe just have her refusing their help and ordering them away when she crosses paths with them? It still fits your vision of her as a tactically precise commander, whilst avoiding the fluff questions of if she's overstepping her boundries. It could also be a point of tension with other Orders and Mistresses, if you wanted to highlight that theme. But I do like the way it changes their playstyle up quite a bit. This is definetely something I'd like to see with the SoB.
Also, lol'd at 18 Exorcists. I agree that it's a bit much, but it would be damn hilarious. Target one unit, roll 18 D6s to see how many missiles land on them.
Order of the Righteous Armour - 542 points so far.
2013/09/22 00:23:03
Subject: Re:Canoness-Marshal Minerva -- a Special Character for the Sisters of battle
I like the idea of a maverick Canoness who advocates a more calculating, rational approach than the Sisters are known for. I think it's a lot of fun and. If handled correctly, could create a really unique and flavorful Sisters force.
However, I don't think your rules do a good job of translating that concept to the tabletop.
Before getting into the rules, I think there's a big problem in terms of fluff. The recent White Dwarf codex states that "[t]hose who seek forgiveness occupy a state of grace that many aspire to, yet few attain. Indeed, some Sisters willingly exile themselves, finding fault in the smallest transgression in order to join the Repentia." Without getting into a big in-depth theological discussion, "state of grace" is strong language and a powerful concept. The idea here is that any sister, even the most wayward, may attain spiritual perfection by martyring herself on the battlefield.
That's a big deal.
Any figure who came along and took it upon herself to deny absolution to certain offenders by summarily executing them while forgiving others by summarily pardoning them would be... well... a full-throated heretic. In terms of fluff, it makes absolutely no sense that the Sororitas would respond to a radical of her caliber by giving her access to Guard-level armor formations that more doctrinaire Canonesses dare not even dream of. She's making waves that have the potential to shake her organization to the core, and that organization responds by... giving her more tanks? More realistically, she'd find herself shackled to a Penitent Engine and marched into the fires of battle.
That gets us to the rules.
The Exorcist is arguably the strongest unit that a Sisters player can field. It's certainly way at the top of the list. It has two major weaknesses. The first is the same as any other Predator-grade (AV 13/11/10) vehicle: mediocre side armor and paper thin rear armor. The second is a wildly variable rate of fire. The ability to squadron Exorcists would make it trivial for a player to place the models in such a way as to reduce the ability of opponents to score hits on any one Exorcist's rear armor. It would also allow players to maximize the survivability of squadroned Exorcists by putting the healthiest one closest to the biggest threat during every movement phase (with the survivability increased more still by the 6+ invulnerable save). At the same time, the ability to field a significantly larger number of Exorcists would reduce the swinginess of the Exorcist's variable rate of fire. One Exorcist is a gamble. Three Exorcists are reliable. Nine Exorcists would be rock solid, pumping out about thirty S8 AP1 shots a turn with only minor variations.
The Exorcist is a fantastic unit even with its weaknesses. Giving players the ability to mitigate those weaknesses or eliminate them entirely would overpower it.
However, the ability to squadron Exorcists isn't alone. Your character unlocks a Predator variant that the Sisters normally don't have access to, gives players the ability to squadron it (mitigating the inherent weakness of such tanks), and then offers a buff that makes it a game breaker. The big weakness of the Predator Infernus is that it is a Predator that must close to short range to bring its most powerful weapons to bear, giving opponents ample opportunity to focus on it. Letting a squadron of Predators Infernus Outflank would circumvent this weakness, as would letting a player straight-up spam them. (And that's in addition to the buff to survivability that the ability to squadron Predator-grade tanks allows.
Yes, maxing out on some combination of Exorcists and (Magna-Melta) Predators Infernus would be expensive, but it would be totally worth it.
That gets us to the offset. Sisters Repentia are a mediocre unit. Many players don't bother with them. Players who take them typically take them because they like the fluff, think the models are a hoot, or enjoy the challenge inherent in making an underwhelming unit perform on the tabletop. It's easy not to take Sisters Repentia, and people who like them typically take just one unit. Forcing players to choose between an underperforming unit that a lot of them wouldn't take anyway and unlocking major buffs to the Heavy Support section isn't a choice at all. ("Well, I could take one unit of extremely fragile mediocre close-combat infantry that'll struggle to make back their points, or I can take six of my codex's strongest unit instead of three and then take a squadron of Magna-Melta Predators that I can use to Outflank on top of that.")
I think the idea of a maverick Canoness who advocates a kind of calm rationality instead of religious zeal has a lot of potential. However, I don't think your rules reflect that, and I think that they're insanely overpowered (which is a related but still separate issue).
This message was edited 4 times. Last update was at 2013/09/22 00:49:52
2013/09/22 00:47:03
Subject: Re:Canoness-Marshal Minerva -- a Special Character for the Sisters of battle
yep it is the shield of faith for the 6+ invul, just goes to show you how green i am with SoB's. played my first game ever today with them, not even sure i kitted them out properly but i went with what models i had for a "learning experience". the one thing i learned the most, was how to take sisters of battle of the field for being dead. here's what i took:
Spoiler:
St. Celestine
Canoness - power sword, inferno pistol, rosarius, melta bombs
Canoness command squad:
--Celestine x 3 w/ simulacrum imperialis, flamer, meltagun
--Hospitaler x 1
--Dialogus x 1
Sisters squad x 10 - storm bolter
--Superior - combi-melta, power sword, melta bombs
---Rhino w/ storm bolter, dozer blades, hunter killer missile, extra armour
Sisters squad x 10 - flamer
--Superior - plasma pistol, power sword, melta bombs
---Rhino w/ storm bolter, dozer blades, hunter killer missile, extra armour
it was me and and Eldar player vs Tau w/ allied Marines, we lost the roll for going first and from there the broadside, the riptide, the vindicator, and the crisis suits, just tore chunks out me, and potshotted the Eldar wraithlords, and wraithguard. the Eldar Avatar took a lot of firepower though, that would have killed off my sisters right away. the one thing that kept me on the field was the 3+ amour save, and the 'feel no pain' from the hospitaler.
anyways, i don't want to really derail this thread into an army list, so any advice on my list please send to me via PM rather than here unless the OP approves it.
and now back on to topic, you state that she is a calculating person, would she not then take into account the Repentia's need to die for the emporer into her plans and give the repentia's exactly what they asked for? if so then, i would think her dislike of repentia would not force her to not use them but would make her want to limit their influence on her strategy, thusly making a rule of limit 1 repentia squad per FoC.
fav movie quotes: "Well let's put her in charge man! - - "Step up to red alert." "Are you sure sir? It does mean changing the bulb." - - "The escape pods not an option, it escaped last Thursday."
Kirasu - Q: What comes out of an Eldar cocoon? A: Corsair butterflies!
2013/09/22 01:29:56
Subject: Canoness-Marshal Minerva -- a Special Character for the Sisters of battle
That is a solid-looking set of guidelines on how to build and present new units. Thanks.
Ok, folks have convinced me that she can't reject Repentia like that, it's simply at odds with canon. (She still might want them to put some fething clothes on). See, this is why it's so valuable to get feedback.
I see the point about outflanking three Predator Infernuses.... Inferni... Predator Infernus tanks. But Creed can Scout a squadron of Leman Russes (Russi?) or, in Apocalypse, a freakin' Titan. And that's not the only thing he gets that a regular IG commander doesn't for a mere 90 points more. Now, arguably Creed is overpowered or even broken....
As for tank spam, even if you're just maxing out a single FOC, three squadrons of Predator Inf... dammit... with no options costs 3x3x90= 810 points; 9 Exorcists cost 1,215. That plus Minerva (at 250) plus two bare-minimum BSS squads (another 250) as your mandatory Troops gets you to either 1,310 points, over 60% spent on one type of specialized unit (short-ranged Predators) or 1,715 points, over 70% spent on one specialized type (glass-cannon Exorcists), with a mix of Predator & Exorcist squadrons in between. And by not buying any Dominions, you'd get only one unit able to Outflank.
That's a lot of points for a dangerously unbalanced force. More balanced builds wouldn't max out on Pred/Ex squadrons until you got to 2,000 points and were eligible for double FOC anyway. If you have the points and models for 18 Pred/Ex, you might as well be playing Apocalypse anyway and forget FOC altogether.
BURN IT DOWN BURN IT DOWN BABY BURN IT DOWN
Psienesis wrote: Well, if you check out Sister Sydney's homebrew/expansion rules, you'll find all kinds of units the Sisters could have, that fit with the theme of the Sisters (as a tabletop army) perfectly well, and are damn-near-perfectly balanced.
Given the valid concern that being able to Outflank a squadron of three main battle tanks might be gamebreaking or at least overpowered, I took that question to a new thread about whether my inspiration here, Creed, is overpowered.
BURN IT DOWN BURN IT DOWN BABY BURN IT DOWN
Psienesis wrote: Well, if you check out Sister Sydney's homebrew/expansion rules, you'll find all kinds of units the Sisters could have, that fit with the theme of the Sisters (as a tabletop army) perfectly well, and are damn-near-perfectly balanced.
I put this in the other thread about sisters but I recently completed a Sisters of battle codex complete with many characters from old editions updated and overhauled for the current edition. A sisters of Silence character along with a squad for them.
A retweaked act of faith system, relic equipment and wargear.
Generations have suffered with the same devotion that we can offer but once. Still, our Faith leads us through these dark times like a beacon. It will guide us to triumph over these abominations. Either by breaking them upon us like waves against a limitless, golden peak or by thrusting through them like the spear of the Immortal Emperor Himself." - Cannoness Aoife, Order of the desert rose #Yesallwomen
Her fluff is unchanged, as is her wargear, but the special rules and point cost are significantly different. Overall, she's toned down.
For one thing, she now costs "only" 200 points, instead of 250.
For another, she no longer allows your army to squadron vehicles -- I've been convinced that should be strictly an Imperial Guard thing that's out of character and unbalancing for Sisters -- and then Outflank the whole squadron.
She does still let you take the Predator Infernus, but that's not a special ability of the character, that's a reflection of the fact that in my fandex-in-progress Sisters get an Infernus variant as a standard Heavy Support choice -- I just haven't published it.
She also does still let you take more Predators and Exorcists than fit in your Heavy Support slot, but only by letting you take them as Elites as well (the way a Master of the Forge lets a Space Marine army take Dreadnaughts as both Elite and Heavy Support), which means you're giving up something else. So instead the original version's ability to take 9 Predators/Exorcists, the revised version can take "only" six Pred/Ex, and only by giving up any of the Sisters' regular Elites choices.
She also still has a Creed-like ability to make one unit Outflank that normally wouldn't, but since there are no squadrons any more, that means only one outflanking flamer tank, not three (and she can only Outflank tanks, including dedicated transports, not fliers or foot troops).
Canoness-Marshal Minerva: 200 points (played by Cate Blanchett)
Background
Spoiler:
Minerva Katrina Demedikus entered the Schola Progenium at the relatively late age of nine years old. The sheltered only child of a high-born Administratum family, she had been orphaned when Chaos Cultists assassinated both her parents nearly a year before. She need never have entered the Schola at all, but after protracted legal battles among her relatives over who would get to be the guardian of the orphaned girl -- and of her vast inheritance -- her extended family could argee on just one thing: it would be best for Minerva to go to the Schola Progenium and, incidentally, renounce her fortune. They did, at least, assuage their consciences by making a sizable donation to her Schola to ensure she was treated as befit her rank.
Minerva's special privileges and aloof manner won her few friends at Schola. While she was a superb scholar, she was badly behind on combat skills. Her piety and intelligence won her a place in the Adepta Sororitas, with the Ordo Famulous and Ordo Dialogous both vying to recruit her, but she surprised everyone by pulling every string she could to become a novice of the Sisters of Battle.
Minerva was almost as unpopular in the Novitiate as she had been in the Schola, but she bore down and caught up in the martial while continuing to excel in academics, particularly military history. When she became a full Sister, her scholarship, high birth, and social polish secured her a plum position as a personal aide to the Canoness of a Minor Order called the Grey Sisterhood.
For two years, Minerva was an unexceptional Sister in an unexceptional Order. Then a Dark Eldar raid on the Grey Sister's convent killed the Canoness and the entire command staff in the first give minutes -- except for Minerva. Crawling bloodstained from the rubble of the Order's war room, Minerva used her access to the Canoness's code keys to take command of the survivors and organize a desperate defense of the smoking ruins of the convent. Her icy calm quieted the panic in her Sisters and her tactical skills kept the Eldar at bay until reinforcements arrived from the Order of the Razor Rose.
A mid-sized but well-funded and heavily mechanized Order, the Razor Rose was typically deployed as the local Cardinal's quick-reaction force. Their Canoness, Pallas Atenne, took one look at the wreckage and absorbed the few surviving Grey Sisters into her own Order under the command of Minerva, who she promoted to Palatine on the spot. (Pallas was technically exceeding her authority, but the Cardinal rubber-stamped his favorite Canoness's decision within days and then rebuffed all protests from the Grey Sisters' parent order). Minerva soon proved her worth in one campaign after another, and when Canoness Pallas died in battle eight years later, she left a sealed letter naming Minerva -- not yet thirty -- as her successor.
Today, Minerva is one of the most respected and most feared commanders in the Segmentum. While retaining command of the Razor Roses, she has repeatedly led task forces drawn from multiple Orders, Planetary Defense Forces, the Imperial Guard -- in which she holds the rank of Lady Marshal -- and even Space Marines, typically Black Templars but, on one memorable and awkward occasion, an entire Great Company of Space Wolves. She has commanded such disparate forces, although she has rarely won their love, by force of will, shrewd diplomacy, and occasional flashes of charm, all backed by an incontestable track record for achieving Imperial objectives with minimum casualties.
"You can't argue with success," one Imperial Guard general said of Minerva. "Well, success and an Inferno Pistol pointed at your face."
Blessed Armour
Finely crafted, exquisitely decorated, and hallowed by the pious valour of past wearers, this superb suit of power armour grants the wearer a 2+ armour save.
When the Lord General Militant leading the Navarre Campaign presented Canoness Minerva with an ancient marshal's baton as a symbol of her authority to command regiments of the Imperial Guard, no one thought of it as anything other than a venerable relic of obscure origin. Then, as Minerva directed her forces from atop a ridgeline during the fighting for Navarre IV, a huge winged Tyranid landed amidst her staff. Minerva's aides scattered, but the Canoness herself snapped "Can't you see I'm busy?" and backhanded the beast with the baton. Imperial publications say Minerva killed it with that one blow; the Canoness herself insists she simply stunned it so her bodyguards could recover their wits and hack it to pieces. Whatever the truth, the baton has some extraordinary powers, at least in Minerva's hands.
Special Rules:
Act of Faith: Anathema*
Act of Faith: Light of the Emperor*
Acts of Faith
Adamantium Will
Armour of Contempt*
Commander of the Faithful*
Independent Character
Maneuver Warlord**
Stubborn
*Army Special Rules from my Fandex, not described in BRB or 5th editions Sisters of Battle Codex:
Spoiler:
Act of Faith: Anathema: A Canoness may attempt this Act of Faith at the beginning of your Shooting Phase or either player’s Assault Phase. If the Test of Faith succeeds, designate any enemy unit within 6” of the Canoness: All friendly units gain the Preferred Enemy special rule against that unit.
Act of Faith: Light of the Emperor: A Canoness, Sister Signifer, or Palatine may attempt this Act of Faith at the beginning of any phase. If the Test of Faith succeeds, the Canoness or Palatine gains the Fearless special rule for the rest of the phase and all friendly units within 6” that are Falling Back immediately and automatically Regroup, even if it is not currently their Movement Phase.
Armour of Contempt:
The holy warriors of the Ecclesiarchy are taught that no assault on body, mind, or soul is greater than the power of the God-Emperor to protect -- or to damn -- and they repel their enemies' blows, both physical and psychic, with contempt.
Every model with the Armour of Contempt special rule has a 6++ invulnerable save.
Every unit in which more than half the models have Armour of Contempt gains a +1 bonus to Deny the Witch rolls. (This bonus is separate from, and cumulative with, Adamantium Will: A unit with both SRs would get +2 to Deny the Witch). However, no friendly psyker may ever use psychic powers on such a unit, and any friendly psyker within 6" suffers a -1 to psychic tests.
Commander of the Faithful: Canoness Minerva and any unit she has joined gain +2 on rolls to perform Acts of Faith.
**Special Rule unique to Canoness-Marshal Minevera:
Maneuver Warlord
Spoiler:
The Razor Rose is a highly mechanized and maneuverable Minor Order, and Canoness-Marshal Minerva is a master of blitzkrieg tactics.
If Minerva is part of your army, she is automatically your Warlord. Instead of rolling for Warlord Traits, she automatically has Strategic Genius.
In addition:
- Any detachment containing Canoness-Marshal Minerva may take Predator Infernus tanks and/or Exorcists as Elite choices, as well as Heavy Support choices.
- During deployment, choose a single Tank-type vehicle, including dedicated transports, from Minerva's detachment. That unit (and any passengers aboard) counts as having the Outflank special rule.
- As long as Minerva is alive, any Tank-type vehicle, including dedicated transports, from her detachment using the Outflank rule also gains the Acute Senses special rule.
Design notes:
Spoiler:
Start with the 80-point Canoness from the Fixing Faith thread, which is where Adamantium Will and the two new Acts of Faith come from. Armour of Contempt is also from the same thread: It's a combination of 5th edition (White Dwarf) Shield of Faith and 3rd ed (Witch Hunters) anti-psyker defenses.
Then:
+20 points for, essentially, artificer armour, granting a 2+ save (cost is the same as in the new Space Marines codex).
+15 for the Inferno Pistol (since a pair costs Seraphim 30 pts).
+15 to start with for her Power Weapon (again, from C:SM 6th edition), which is basically a power maul with the following two improvements:
+10 for adding Monster Hunter on the power maul (using Ovion's rough guideline that each SR costs +10 points).
+10 for +1 AP on the power maul (ditto).
+10 for allowing two Heavy Support choices (Predators and Exorcists) to be taken as Elites as well. (Since you can only take each additional Pred/Ex at the expense of a regular Elite choice, I thought 5 points for each tank type seemed enough rather than 10).
+10 for adding Outflank to one unit (Ovion's rule of thumb again).
+20 for adding Acute Senses to the entire army (assuming on average that four units Outflank, counting the one above; Ovion's rule of thumb that one SR per unit costs +10 seems overpriced for Acute Senses, which is kinda weak). Note this is a bit weaker than the Master of Ambush warlord trait, since Minerva's is limited to tanks.
That comes to 190 points, but erring on the side of caution and round numbers, I bumped that up to an even 200.
This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2013/10/06 12:08:32
BURN IT DOWN BURN IT DOWN BABY BURN IT DOWN
Psienesis wrote: Well, if you check out Sister Sydney's homebrew/expansion rules, you'll find all kinds of units the Sisters could have, that fit with the theme of the Sisters (as a tabletop army) perfectly well, and are damn-near-perfectly balanced.
Whoops, copy editing goof! I'll fix that now, thanks.
BURN IT DOWN BURN IT DOWN BABY BURN IT DOWN
Psienesis wrote: Well, if you check out Sister Sydney's homebrew/expansion rules, you'll find all kinds of units the Sisters could have, that fit with the theme of the Sisters (as a tabletop army) perfectly well, and are damn-near-perfectly balanced.
Also, I've written up the new Sororitas Predators and an all-new Oriflamme Scout Tank for Minerva's mech forces: Tank Heaven For Little Girls.
BURN IT DOWN BURN IT DOWN BABY BURN IT DOWN
Psienesis wrote: Well, if you check out Sister Sydney's homebrew/expansion rules, you'll find all kinds of units the Sisters could have, that fit with the theme of the Sisters (as a tabletop army) perfectly well, and are damn-near-perfectly balanced.
Minerva definitely needs some updates to bring her into line with the new Codex.... In the meantime, I just read in the 'dex that the Major Order Militant of the Sacred Rose is famous for level-headedness and calm, so the name "Razor Rose" for Minerva's Minor Order, presumably an offshoot, looks positively brilliant on my part. (Protip: actually pure fething coincidence).
BURN IT DOWN BURN IT DOWN BABY BURN IT DOWN
Psienesis wrote: Well, if you check out Sister Sydney's homebrew/expansion rules, you'll find all kinds of units the Sisters could have, that fit with the theme of the Sisters (as a tabletop army) perfectly well, and are damn-near-perfectly balanced.