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I'm wondering if folks think the Imperial Guard special character Ursakar Creed is overpowered/undercosted with his "tactical genius" ability. I ask because I was using Creed to help me design & cost a proposed Sisters of Battle canoness who uses actual tactics and people got a little uneasy me giving her a combination of abilities that Creed already has:

1) She allows Sisters to take main battle tanks (specifically Predator Infernus flamer tanks) in squadrons of 1-3 per heavy support choice. Squadroning MBTs is obviously something the Guard does routinely, with or without Creed in the force, and they do it with a better tank, the Leman Russ.

2) She can make one unit in the army able to Outflank with Acute Senses and she can reroll reserve rolls. (So she's not making a unit Scout, the way Creed does, just Outflank, but it's a really, really reliable Outflank).

(The full-write up of the SC is over in Proposed Rules and I'd be glad for people to pop over to that thread & offer suggestions).

One person said point blank this was "insanely overpowered" because it would allow you to Outflank a squadron of three main battle tanks right up the enemy's arse. To which my response was, doesn't Creed do that all the time? (Hell, in Apocalypse he can scout Baneblades and Titans). But then I thought, wait, what if Creed is OP? I don't think so, but maybe I'm naive.

So, my specific questions for all the veterans who've played Guard or against Guard since the 5th edition IG codex came out:

1) In people's experience, is Creed in fact a gamebreaker? I'd really think that since you know the Outflank or Scout is coming and even what unit it's going to be, it can hardly be unstoppable.

2) Is Creed just plain undercosted for what he lets the IG do? I think this a much more valid argument that just calling him a gamebreaker, but I'm far from sure it's valid, either.

1) No, creed is a fluffy but inefficient

2) See above.

Inefficient? That's interesting. How so?

 SisterSydney wrote:
Inefficient? That's interesting. How so?

Well, scout in itself is not very useful, being negated by infiltrators, and outflank may sound good, but it keeps out a unit until at least turn 2 and when it comes in, smart maneuvering can minimize the effect. This is without the Tau interceptor-ing everything.

Also, creed brings next to nothing to the table besides this ability as he costs as much as 2 CCS'.

Creed is overcosted if anything. The reason being several;
1) your acute sense outflank is better than scout. Creed usually ends up scouting his tanks but without the accuracy (which is important)

2) Creed is part of a CCS. So no IC status.

3) Creed has no other abilities other than his tactics and orders. If you could give creed combat abilities, etc. he would start getting much better with his for cadia order

4) The IG army is not an aggressive one. Giving a single unit in IG scout is not as impressive as giving a unit in SM or SoB scout due to the fact when the scout is up field the rest of the IG army is still in the deployment zone.

5) The "orders" you gave her are a fair deal better than most of creeds orders.

6) LR are not any where near as good as predator infernus up close and personal like an outflank gets you. Those tanks are about 1.5 times the firepower for almost half the cost. In a scenario where you get first shot the AV13 vs AV14 means very little and in a tank that will be within 18" of an enemy it means nothing (ie krak grenades and melta are the killers at that point).

I would say the problem is designing a character in a vacuum without looking at context.

Creed is hardly broken, he is playable but only if you can utilize every single one of his abilities to full extent.

Outflanking battle tanks can certainly be fun, and nobody likes it when 3 demolishers show up in their backfield. However, you need an astropath to ensure they come in and to ensure they get the right side, further increasing his cost.

His increased order bubble and 4 orders a turn work well with plenty of squads to order around(particularly well from a chimera) but 9 times out of 10 2 company commanders work just fine. He does give for the honor of cadia, which can make guardsmen fearless, which is again useful but situational.

Creed requires lists to be built around him, and even then he is almost always outshined by a second CCS as Imotekh said. Now, taking that ability to outflank and putting in in a scratch build character could indeed break the character. However, Creed alone is not that great.

Very interesting points from both Serling & ansacs about how an ability that is balanced or even overcosted for Creed can be potentially gamebreaking if given to an independent character in a more aggressive army.

So are there other ways to portray a "smart guy" HQ? We have a lot of combat monsters in different armies' HQ slots, but precious few that actually order units around, and it seems like playing games with reserve rolls & Outflank is the best way to simulate that kind of maneuver warfare, given that the table itself can get awfully cramped....

How about an eldrad like ability to re-position d3 units at the end of deployment?

Another option which is cool is perhaps a 1 turn ability to reroll 1's on something. Like armour saves or to hit?

Really if you didn't allow the predator infernos to outflank and only gave regular scout or outflank it wouldn't be such a big deal. Have you ever used one of them? They are brutal if you get close so a squad of them outflanking is serious business.

If you want to portray a "smart guy/girl" IC, you need to have him with little personal power, but spread buffs around.
See Tau "buffmander" for example. no noticeable CC power, no guns at all (or a flamer at best), but the unit he joins gains Ignore Cover, Twin Linked (everyhting) and Monster/Tank Hunters, in addition to his better Ld (in an army generally poor at it)


Now in sisters in spesific, I would assume "buffs" will come in the form of Acts of Faith improvements.
Her two acts, and granting bonus to rolls for example are nice (though the bonus is standard cannoness ability, maybe an improved version of it as an aura would be thematic)

Army-wide acute sense, is nice. but when you grant an ADDITIONAL outflanker with the same rule, meaning you now outflank retributers with two heavy-flamers in a repressor, a unit never designed to have access to that. (or even worse, the new tank squads)
Rules need to take into consideration the army they are in.
Rerolling your own reserves, a regular warlord trait, is also a good point, but only on its own. not with a bazilion other rules around.
But rerolling ENEMY reserves? no, no, no. that's not only outright mad, it creates silly rule clashes (what if both you and he can reroll?)

I'd say, scrap that ability and give her assured "master of ambush" OR assured "strategic genius", as right now she has a vastly improved version of both, and they also resonate with each other making both even stronger.

The ability to take tanks as squads, especially tanks beloning to another army, is a big no-no however. tank squads is unique to IG as an army built around the concept of numbers, and even there its generally a mistake. and the predators are not even SoB, meaning you give access to guns your army should not even posses.
Blocking choices (No Repentia) is also generally not around these days.


Now, if I was to remake her, I would remove "mechanised commander", "no repentia" and "manuver warlord" and give her either "strategic genius" or "master of ambush" as a fixed warlord trait, but not forced to be warlord (whatever fits the image you have for her more), at that point her proper cost will be:

Cannoness: 65
Inferno pistol: 10 (as per newer GK codex, the SoB have it old and overcosted. even at 10 I would NEVER take one.)
Artifecer armor: 15
Baton: 30
Fixed Trait: 10
Superior acts of faith: 30 (they are fat better then any other act of faith around)

Total, 160 points. into the affordable range, yet still thematic commander, and powerful.
Now, if you turn her bonus to acts of faith into an aura, I'd cost it 5 points for a 6" aura, 15 for a 12" aura. (would not make it bigger then that)

(she nabbed a free adamantiom will there, but she deserves it for taking the horrid inferno pistol, a weaker willed individual would have long switched to an actual weapon.)

These are all very helpful suggestions. Thanks. I don't see her as extraordinarily inspired in her faith, so the aura Acts of Faith are probably best for another special character TBD, but for this SC I definitely see your points about squadrons being a uniquely IG "power of numbers" thing, about not rerolling enemy reserves, and about the gamebreaking potential of outflanking units that don't have it.