In the wake of the new psychic power leaks it is really getting quite annoying now how having to argue with people that is makes no sense for anybody but chaos to summon daemons. It is really getting quite tiresome. Is anybody else having these issues?
Loyalists summoning daemons make no sense. They should be trying at all cost to prevent daemon from entering realspace. Better get that world completely overrun than orks rather than tear apart the very fabric of realspace to allow the extremely dangerous predatory entities from the warp to come through.
Well radical inquisitors and traitor guard psykers, but otherwise I don't see any way they would. Orks hate demon as much as they hate anybody else, eldar wouldn't do it, SMs would veiw it as heresy, loyalist psykers would be killed for heresy, ect.
Honestly this is the way I see it. We have seen that it is going to be viable but not how the cost/benefit/consequence structure is going to work out for non-Chaos entities breaking down and using this power. The fluff does support it though as many loyalists have broken down in desperation and used a Chaos power to save themselves/mission. What does it usually cost them though? A lot and they begin to go down a dark path or even kill themselves in the process. Chaos doesn't care who uses their powers as long as they get used, in fact, Chaos daemons absolutely love it when they can break down a loyalist into giving into Chaos. From everything that has been put out there, that is roughly how it seems this is going to work. A loyalist can do it but you better hope you get control of it otherwise, it probably will make you loose the game. There might even be a clause that if you are fighting a Chaos force that they have a chance to grab control and turn it against the player that summoned it. GW warned that if you aren't CSM or daemons and you summon daemons, things can and probably will go badly for you which is enough for someone to not use those powers with anyone except Chaos.
It not about whether or not it makes game sense. It's about how now all the sudden so many people think it makes sense for everybody in the galaxy to be able to summon daemons.
herpguy wrote: It not about whether or not it makes game sense. It's about how now all the sudden so many people think it makes sense for everybody in the galaxy to be able to summon daemons.
Well it does make sense, psykers get possessed all of the time, there is always a chance of possession or corruption within a psyker even more so than a normal human, who also get possessed all of the time, whether intentionally or not.
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pm713 wrote: Turns out everyone is an alpha legion marine. Either that or GW has just given up.
Either that or GW is doing this thing it's not done before called 'game balance' where not only 3 factions get access to ridiculously OP powers.
We also don't know which factions get sanctic and malefic powers, all we know is that all factions get access to deamonmancy.
herpguy wrote: If a space marine broke down to the point of summoning daemons he would be a CHAOS MARINE.
And Chaos Marines start somewhere. They don't get the spiky armor and outdated gear THEN start summoning daemons, they start with steps along the pathway to damnation, usually with good intentions. That Librarian who summoned daemons might have done so as he saw no other choice to protect an imperial town...but in doing so he damns himself and he knows it
BrotherOfBone wrote: Well it does make sense, psykers get possessed all of the time, there is always a chance of possession or corruption within a psyker even more so than a normal human, who also get possessed all of the time, whether intentionally or not.
If you cannot see the difference between being possessed as the result of a failed attempt to launch some “sanctified” psychic power, and actually have learned before the battle the specifics of a spell that allows you not to be possessed, but really to invoke some daemons, and then bind them to your will, I really do not know how I can explain you the problem.
BrotherOfBone wrote: Either that or GW is doing this thing it's not done before called 'game balance' where not only 3 factions get access to ridiculously OP powers.
GW? Balance? 7th edition? You must be kidding.
BrotherOfBone wrote: We also don't know which factions get sanctic and malefic powers, all we know is that all factions get access to deamonmancy.
No, we know. Look at the latest scans. Everyone with psykers (balance, lololol), except tyranids (balance, lololol) get access to both part of the daemonology, except for GK which have only sanctic (but perils only on double 6) and daemons (same idea, but invert sanctic for malefic).
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nobody wrote: They don't get the spiky armor and outdated gear THEN start summoning daemons, they start with steps along the pathway to damnation, usually with good intentions.
I am pretty sure they do. Learning to summon daemons usually takes longer than adding spikes to your armor. Because, you know, summoning daemons is totally forbidden knowledge and it is extremely dangerous, so you usually do not rush it. On the other hand, adding spikes to your armor… I am pretty sure even loyalists know how to do that .
BrotherOfBone wrote: Well it does make sense, psykers get possessed all of the time, there is always a chance of possession or corruption within a psyker even more so than a normal human, who also get possessed all of the time, whether intentionally or not.
If you cannot see the difference between being possessed as the result of a failed attempt to launch some “sanctified” psychic power, and actually have learned before the battle the specifics of a spell that allows you not to be possessed, but really to invoke some daemons, and then bind them to your will, I really do not know how I can explain you the problem.
BrotherOfBone wrote: Either that or GW is doing this thing it's not done before called 'game balance' where not only 3 factions get access to ridiculously OP powers.
GW? Balance? 7th edition? You must be kidding.
BrotherOfBone wrote: We also don't know which factions get sanctic and malefic powers, all we know is that all factions get access to deamonmancy.
No, we know. Look at the latest scans. Everyone with psykers (balance, lololol), except tyranids (balance, lololol) get access to both part of the daemonology, except for GK which have only sanctic (but perils only on double 6) and daemons (same idea, but invert sanctic for malefic).
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nobody wrote: They don't get the spiky armor and outdated gear THEN start summoning daemons, they start with steps along the pathway to damnation, usually with good intentions.
I am pretty sure they do. Learning to summon daemons usually takes longer than adding spikes to your armor. Because, you know, summoning daemons is totally forbidden knowledge and it is extremely dangerous, so you usually do not rush it. On the other hand, adding spikes to your armor… I am pretty sure even loyalists know how to do that .
In regards to your quip on balance, it's better than nothing isn't it? Would you rather 3 factions have access to ridiculous psychic powers or game balance at the expense of fluff?
And radical inquisitors doing this would be killed off by Grey Knights or Sisters of Battle if they were in the same army.
That, and as a result of a psychic mishap. But that wouldn't take the form of a psychic power from a Lore. Unless the reason everyone has access to it is that if you roll boxcars/snake eyes, you have to roll on the daemonology table and instead of what you were trying to do you cast that power (and something horrible happens to your psyker)?
That would make sense with the "something bad is happening if you use this" comment...
But I could never see Eldar, in particular, use any of powers from something called daemonology willingly...
Re: the balance argument. Wouldn't it be better (and easier) to simply not make ridiculously OP powers? I know, I know, GW...
MWHistorian wrote: You can't convince me that loyalist marines summoning demons is accurate to the fluff or in any way good for the game.
As a marine player I don't see anyone twisting my arm and shouting 'YOU MUST TAKE DAEMOMANCY POWERS'
It's the player's choice and if the player thinks that his army will suit Daemomancy powers (whether they be sanctic or malefic) then they shall have sanctic or malefic powers.
I also don't see anybody forcing you to play a marine player that is using malefic powers.
MWHistorian wrote: You can't convince me that loyalist marines summoning demons is accurate to the fluff or in any way good for the game.
Who says it needs to be accurate to the fluff?
Tons of people use codices for the basis of a "counts as". It doesn't need to be restricted by anything other than the players themselves.
Also who's saying they have to use Demon models? Just the statlines, you could be summoning Legion of the Damned or any other form of non-malevolent daemonic entity.
nobody wrote: They don't get the spiky armor and outdated gear THEN start summoning daemons, they start with steps along the pathway to damnation, usually with good intentions.
I am pretty sure they do. Learning to summon daemons usually takes longer than adding spikes to your armor. Because, you know, summoning daemons is totally forbidden knowledge and it is extremely dangerous, so you usually do not rush it. On the other hand, adding spikes to your armor… I am pretty sure even loyalists know how to do that .
Thousand Sons were summoning daemons as familiars long before their fall, they just didn't realize what they were summoning.
In more contemporary times I'm almost certain that every Librarian has had, at some point, a little voice whispering in their ear offering to "help" them if they'd just speak the words of power, or a chapter had captured heretical books and one of their number read them instead of destroying them right away like they should have.
/not that I have any intention of using daemonomancy with my Space Marines mind you, just pointing out how it could work.
loyal imperials summoning demons? isn't that how the horus heresy happened, consorting with the powers of chaos?
i can see if it happens accidentally, or through deception, but i can't see a loyal psyker consciously summoning demonic entities.
if you want to play an army that uses demons, play chaos marines...
morpheuschild wrote: loyal imperials summoning demons? isn't that how the horus heresy happened, consorting with the powers of chaos?
i can see if it happens accidentally, or through deception, but i can't see a loyal psyker consciously summoning demonic entities.
if you want to play an army that uses demons, play chaos marines...
So it's stupid for an Imperial Guard psyker, who probably has little knowledge of what he's doing half the time and is out of his mind, to summon Demons of his own free will? Is it ridiculous for a librarian, lead astray, to summon Demons of his own free will?
We also have to consider that GW is going for a 'do whatever, be whatever, field whatever' stance in 7th Edition, so you have to consider that many people will be proxying stuff within armies and for their army demon summoning may make sense.
TheCustomLime wrote: I would be more accepting of this if we could use Living Saints or LotD to represent any Daemons summoned.
But those things don't work like Chaos Daemons. Whether or not they are Daemonic in nature is debatable and certainly can be argued for, but they can't really go interchangeably with Chaos Daemons.
Also, small note, Celestine is seemingly the only magical Living Saint in the 40K studio fluff so far. In codexes, the title just refers to a person that the Ecclesiarchy has declared a Saint in life. So, as it stands, generic Living Saints aren't a thing in the game.
TheCustomLime wrote: I would be more accepting of this if we could use Living Saints or LotD to represent any Daemons summoned.
But those things don't work like Chaos Daemons. Whether or not they are Daemonic in nature is debatable and certainly can be argued for, but they can't really go interchangeably with Chaos Daemons.
Also, small note, Celestine is seemingly the only magical Living Saint in the 40K studio fluff so far. In codexes, the title just refers to a person that the Ecclesiarchy has declared a Saint in life. So, as it stands, generic Living Saints aren't a thing in the game.
I've seen people use lasgun-brandishing Gretchin as Imperial Guardsmen and cardboard models as Predators, I'm pretty sure if someone wants to use LotD to make a fluffy army then they can. Also, there's basically no explanation for LotD being anything but Daemons. They have no mode of travel other than appearing mysteriously from flames, they have never spoken and their armour flickers with unnatural flames.
I've seen people use lasgun-brandishing Gretchin as Imperial Guardsmen and cardboard models as Predators, I'm pretty sure if someone wants to use LotD to make a fluffy army then they can.
I was referring to the idea of the rules or fluff officially sanctioning Celestine/LatD being used to substitute Daemons rather than a player just deciding to proxy them.
BrotherOfBone wrote: Also, there's basically no explanation for LotD being anything but Daemons. They have no mode of travel other than appearing mysteriously from flames, they have never spoken and their armour flickers with unnatural flames.
As I said, my issue is that they're not exactly the same as Chaos Daemons, not interchangeable with them. And I think it's much better to have them as these distinct entities with an air of mystery about them, rather than making them more similar to the Chaotic Daemons.
Bedides, them being Daemons is certainly not the only explanation. Their codex puts forward several different theories about what they are.
nobody wrote: Thousand Sons were summoning daemons as familiars long before their fall, they just didn't realize what they were summoning.
If you say so. I do not care about HH at the slightest, because marinefest.
nobody wrote: In more contemporary times I'm almost certain that every Librarian has had, at some point, a little voice whispering in their ear offering to "help" them if they'd just speak the words of power, or a chapter had captured heretical books and one of their number read them instead of destroying them right away like they should have.
We have example. Like the relictors. But using a sword is totally not the same thing as summoning actual daemons. You have to be pretty stupid not to notice that those bloodthristers/daemonettes/plaguebearers are daemons. And if there is one thing that is supposed to be more hated and with whom consort is the most unforgivable sin, even more than xenos and heretics, it is daemon. It is supposed to be an instant death sentence. Even fighting against them may condemn you, actually. So, yeah, no summoning them in front of all your pals.
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BrotherOfBone wrote: In regards to your quip on balance, it's better than nothing isn't it?
No, it is not.
BrotherOfBone wrote: Would you rather 3 factions have access to ridiculous psychic powers or game balance at the expense of fluff?
False dichotomy. The real question is “Would you rather have a summoning daemons psychic discipline restricted to faction that can summon daemon in the fluff, or everyone except two random armies getting to summon daemons even if it is completely contrary to the fluff, with absolutely no improvement of the horrible game balance altogether”.
Ignoring the fact that all races (bar Tau) can summon Demons in the fluff.
And how is a small improvement not better than nothing?? It puts all armies (bar tau who are OP anyway) on a level playing field on terms of psychic powers.
BrotherOfBone wrote: Ignoring the fact that all races (bar Tau) can summon Demons in the fluff.
And how is a small improvement not better than nothing?? It puts all armies (bar tau who are OP anyway) on a level playing field on terms of psychic powers.
Necrons ?
Tyranids ?
Facts..
This is the background forum. It doesn't matter if the playing field is equalized if everyone would get Riptides. Why ?
Because the major asset of GW and the thing that keeps more people keeping an eye on 40k is the Background. So No, silly ideas are silly.
Psykers should be able to summon Demons if they know the way to.
But some shouldn't want to and thats where the difference between chaos followers and some heretics and the rest of the Galaxy kicks in.
For some armies it makes sense, for example heretic IG. But why would a Grey knight or Sister of battle, willingly summon Demons? For GK they were bred to kill them, but now they can summon them to help them fight? It's GW taking a chainsaw to the fluff and then taking a dump over the remains.
They'll probably smash some fluff into the new BRB about how Tau now have a soul and presence in the warp and can now summon demons for the greater good!
tomball0706 wrote: For some armies it makes sense, for example heretic IG. But why would a Grey knight or Sister of battle, willingly summon Demons? For GK they were bred to kill them, but now they can summon them to help them fight? It's GW taking a chainsaw to the fluff and then taking a dump over the remains.
They'll probably smash some fluff into the new BRB about how Tau now have a soul and presence in the warp and can now summon demons for the greater good!
Personally, I feel like the ability for races other than chaos / chaos daemons to purposely summon daemons is an absolute abuse of the past 25 years of story/history
If GW had perhaps said the following, I would be content:
''Chaos and Chaos Daemons may deliberately summon daemons to the battlefield....''
''Imperial/Non-Chaos Xeno forces that roll perils of the warp may roll to see if they summon a daemon which is under the control of a chaos player / if no chaos player is present, then it attacks the nearest units until dead''
herpguy wrote: If a space marine broke down to the point of summoning daemons he would be a CHAOS MARINE.
really, if a Space Marine starts summoning the forces of Chaos he becomes a Chaos Space Marine?
Seems like a jump to me.
5E C:SM psychic powers had Librarians summoning an avatar of some kind of hero. In-game it was just a flmae template attack, but the fluff was them summoning a being.
---> SM were summoning daemons before it was cool.
tomball0706 wrote: For some armies it makes sense, for example heretic IG. But why would a Grey knight or Sister of battle, willingly summon Demons? For GK they were bred to kill them, but now they can summon them to help them fight? It's GW taking a chainsaw to the fluff and then taking a dump over the remains.
They'll probably smash some fluff into the new BRB about how Tau now have a soul and presence in the warp and can now summon demons for the greater good!
In fairness GK get Perils on a double.
Gks cant roll on the Malefic chart that summons daemons, Ony the Sanctic chart which has yet to be revealed
nobody wrote: Thousand Sons were summoning daemons as familiars long before their fall, they just didn't realize what they were summoning.
If you say so. I do not care about HH at the slightest, because marinefest.
nobody wrote: In more contemporary times I'm almost certain that every Librarian has had, at some point, a little voice whispering in their ear offering to "help" them if they'd just speak the words of power, or a chapter had captured heretical books and one of their number read them instead of destroying them right away like they should have.
We have example. Like the relictors. But using a sword is totally not the same thing as summoning actual daemons. You have to be pretty stupid not to notice that those bloodthristers/daemonettes/plaguebearers are daemons. And if there is one thing that is supposed to be more hated and with whom consort is the most unforgivable sin, even more than xenos and heretics, it is daemon. It is supposed to be an instant death sentence. Even fighting against them may condemn you, actually. So, yeah, no summoning them in front of all your pals.
They were using Daemon Weapons. As in, weapons that were drawing their power from captured actual daemons. And we also have a chapter of Marines who thought daemonic mutations were gifts of the Emperor when they first got them (Soul Drinkers), and only went renegade afterward.
And yes, in most cases it'd be an instant death sentence, but that depends a lot on if the Librarian was caught, or turned himself in, or if enough of the chapter approved of the "means justify the ends" philosophy to "protect" him from punishment.
nobody wrote: They were using Daemon Weapons. As in, weapons that were drawing their power from captured actual daemons.
And the marines did not realized it, and even with this it lead to them being declared excomunicate traitoris!
nobody wrote: And we also have a chapter of Marines who thought daemonic mutations were gifts of the Emperor when they first got them (Soul Drinkers), and only went renegade afterward.
Again, that was deception and them not realizing where those mutations come from. It is pretty hard not to recognize a bloodthirster as a daemon…
nobody wrote: And yes, in most cases it'd be an instant death sentence, but that depends a lot on if the Librarian was caught, or turned himself in, or if enough of the chapter approved of the "means justify the ends" philosophy to "protect" him from punishment.
Willingly invoking daemons during a battle means have researched the spell beforehand. Which is very, very heretic with extra heresy.
BrotherOfBone wrote: Ignoring the fact that all races (bar Tau) can summon Demons in the fluff.
Yes, both black and white people can summon demons. No, not all factions, or all species, can summon daemons. Tau cannot. Necrons cannot. I do not think there is any reference to orks doing that, ever. Eldars would be extremely unlikely to do that, especially Slaaneshi daemons.
BrotherOfBone wrote: It puts all armies (bar tau who are OP anyway) on a level playing field on terms of psychic powers.
It puts all army bar Tau, Necrons, Tyranids, Daemons, Grey Knights and Sisters of Battle on a level playing field. So, uh, it does not provide any kind of actual playing field. Not to mention that different factions have access to different psykers for different point costs, that comes with different profile and different rules and different wargear, so in the end, even for the armies that have access to the same domains, it does not provide a level playing field.
Now, if GW wants to provide a level playing field, my Faction still does not have any access to fliers or anti-air weaponry.
nobody wrote: They were using Daemon Weapons. As in, weapons that were drawing their power from captured actual daemons.
And the marines did not realized it, and even with this it lead to them being declared excomunicate traitoris!
nobody wrote: And we also have a chapter of Marines who thought daemonic mutations were gifts of the Emperor when they first got them (Soul Drinkers), and only went renegade afterward.
Again, that was deception and them not realizing where those mutations come from. It is pretty hard not to recognize a bloodthirster as a daemon…
nobody wrote: And yes, in most cases it'd be an instant death sentence, but that depends a lot on if the Librarian was caught, or turned himself in, or if enough of the chapter approved of the "means justify the ends" philosophy to "protect" him from punishment.
Willingly invoking daemons during a battle means have researched the spell beforehand. Which is very, very heretic with extra heresy.
The Relictors realized it after the first time one was used accidentally, and then decided to gather more, it was AFTER they attacked an Inquisition force to get a powerful artifact that they were declared.
And as for learning how to summon daemons, there are several ways they could have learned:
1. Researching ahead of time (and not getting caught).
2. Being whispered the spell by daemonic voices on the battlefield when they are in danger of being overrun.
3. Being taught a ritual to banish daemons (or a psychic ability to summon help ala Psychic Communion) by a "helpful" Inquisitor (who could have been a Radical, a disguised Sorcerer, or even the Changeling) that works very differently from what was described.
In any event, once they've realized what they've done there's multiple paths open to them. They either throw themselves at the mercy of the Inquisition (or the rest of their chapter), or go renegade. Once they go renegade they can end up like the Relictors (loyalist to an extent), or they can fall ever further, becoming Chaos Marines themselves.
But they wouldn't exactly trade their Stormtalons for Helldrakes right away.
Perhaps it's intended as a way to allow players to use loyalist codexes as their own "counts as" heretical army with daemon summoning.
I'm betting that's the stance they're trying to take, paired with their other famous "we don't give a damn about balance" stance, which allows for loyalists who AREN'T heretics to summon daemons.
I think I would at least like to see, in the imperial codices: Any psyker using malefic daemonology in battle is counted as a casualty at the end of the game, due to being executed for heresy.
I could see and justify both the Grey Knights doing it to train their recruits for battle, or information gain ans the Exorcists Chapter as they summon and then exorcise the demon as part of their lore.
I mean why not have a chapter or group of Loyalists that are walking a fine line, The inquisition have daemon hosts is that not summon and binding a daemon to do your bidding?
I'm not stressing it too much. As a true GK at heart I wont be summoning deamons, and those that do are heretical filth and will be purged like the rest of the neverborn!
But on a more serious not i have a feeling this is going to go the same way as the bound and unbound army list thing will. you will have those WAAC players who will abuse
the rules to their benefit and try and do it to come out ahead and you will have players such as myself who shy away from such heresy. I mean i like to play competitively but
i also try to stay within the guide lines of the fluff and have armies that some what make sense. I don't try to take a Necron army with Eldar allies if you catch my drift. So yeah
i think it will just split up between the people who and the people who don't and eventually the two will only play within there respective groups for the most part.
The problem is that the reason 40K is appealing is the background fluff. If you take that away what is 40K? Just a half-rate game compared to the competition that's out there now.
I play 40K because I've read so many books and loved the background for years before I started investing in the tabletop.
With allies and now this it just seems like they are starting to not care at all about the fluff, which was arguably the one thing that GW held onto despite everything else.
herpguy wrote: The problem is that the reason 40K is appealing is the background fluff. If you take that away what is 40K? Just a half-rate game compared to the competition that's out there now.
I play 40K because I've read so many books and loved the background for years before I started investing in the tabletop.
With allies and now this it just seems like they are starting to not care at all about the fluff, which was arguably the one thing that GW held onto despite everything else.
...that's...I just...I don't...
Games Workshop has NEVER had any real loyalty to their own fluff. Every new book, codex, main rules set, or spin-off game as re-written the fluff to suit the needs at the moment. I, too, love the Games Workshop fluff, but I just can't see any way to look at the situation and think that they "held onto [the fluff] despite everything else."
Furthermore, this doesn't particularly bother me. Loyalist chapters falling to Chaos are far more common than other things in the fluff that NO ONE has a problem being represented on the table-top. And it isn't like rogue members don't exist either. From the Blood Ravens to the Salamanders to the entirety of the Soul Drinkers chapter, there are plenty of traitorous vipers snuggled up against the toasty bosom of the Imperium. And that's not to MENTION the myriad chapters that are just ACHING to go Chaos, what with all their mutations and heretical beliefs, like the Black Dragons, the Blood Angels (and all their successors), and the Space Wolves.
Would it bother me if someone just had Tigurius or Ezekiel just summoning a Bloodthirster because, reasons? Heck yes. But I don't think it's a stretch AT ALL to have an army or a list or a scenario that makes it okay for a loyalist (rules-wise) force to summon a demon.
It's quite simple. Loyalists do not summon daemons. If your psyker is summoning daemons, he is already lost to the Ruinous Powers. If the rest of the army is OK with this, they are also lost. If someone tries to claim some sort of special snowflake fluff exemption so their dudes can summon daemons and still serve Mankind, I will laugh right in their face.
I'm really hoping Eldar, Grey Knights, and Sisters all get Sanctic only. The Eldar have a better understanding of the cost of dealing with Chaos than anyone else, and the GK/SoB are too fanatical to ever consider it (and they don't represent multiple distinct viewpoints, unlike Vanilla Marines or Guard for example).
What would be cool is if GK/SoB have a rule that if an allied force uses a Malefic power, all units in the GK/SoB detachment immediately switch sides and are now controlled by your opponent. Also maybe expand It's For Your Own Good to include intentional use of Malefic powers, since Commissars shouldn't be in a Traitor Guard detachment anyway.
Bludbaff wrote: I'm really hoping Eldar, Grey Knights, and Sisters all get Sanctic only. The Eldar have a better understanding of the cost of dealing with Chaos than anyone else, and the GK/SoB are too fanatical to ever consider it (and they don't represent multiple distinct viewpoints, unlike Vanilla Marines or Guard for example).
You know that Sisters have no psykers anyway, and never will, right? No santic, no malefic, no telepathy, no pyromancy, nothing. Just acts of faith, that are not in any way psychic powers.
I was under the impression that Sanctic powers were going to be the new system for Faith. I mean, they are manifestations of the Emperor's will, right? That sounds an awful lot like Emperor-guided warp manifestations.
I think it represents the temptation that Chaos has, but brings it in as a game mechanic. It makes the corruption of Chaos real. Sure, you may have a loyalist army, but it's ultimately up to you as a commander to decide whether or not to fall to Chaos to win a battle.
Jimsolo wrote: And that's not to MENTION the myriad chapters that are just ACHING to go Chaos, what with all their mutations and heretical beliefs, like the Black Dragons, the Blood Angels (and all their successors), and the Space Wolves.
Hey man! We're so loyal we have a VIP club card! I believe you're referring to our 13th Company who had a bad case of geneseed and WILLINGLY threw themselves into the Warp to battle the forces of Chaos. Let's see your Salamanders do that.
Back to OP, I think what would be a cool idea is that you roll your normal psychic powers, if you fail and suffer perils then you have to roll something and that decides if you turn into a Daemon or not. Then you roll every turn or phase and if you pass you maintain control, if not something bad happens. That way you can still bring Daemons into Loyalist armies and still keep it semi-fluffy? Kind of like a fun accident?
So it's stupid for an Imperial Guard psyker, who probably has little knowledge of what he's doing half the time and is out of his mind, to summon Demons of his own free will? Is it ridiculous for a librarian, lead astray, to summon Demons of his own free will?
Imperial Guard sanctioned psykers are actually highly educated and highly trained in the ways of the warp. That's how they earned sanctioning in the first place. In terms of "tiers" of psykers sent to the astra telepathica, they've had to prove their brains, loyalty, and discipline above the guys that get fed to the astronomicon, above the guys that get fed to the Emperor (those two groups make up the VAST majority of the psykers that the Black Ships take in. Note that even the guys that get fed to the Emperor had to go through a lot of training for that. Emps only eats quality psykers, yo), and above the astropaths. Only after proving you're more disciplined and trustworthy enough to be trusted with the secrets of the warp than all those other guys (and again, that's the vast majority of the psykers) do you get to be a sanctioned psyker.
Well, that's what I remember at least. Too lazy to go check but I'm pretty sure that's it.
FantomAntichrist wrote: I think it represents the temptation that Chaos has, but brings it in as a game mechanic. It makes the corruption of Chaos real. Sure, you may have a loyalist army, but it's ultimately up to you as a commander to decide whether or not to fall to Chaos to win a battle.
So, what, next time you play you suffer the consequences of falling to Chaos in your previous game? An inquisitor shows up and kills your warlord or something?
Exorcists Space Marine Chapter. Not daemon weapon users like the Relictors. All the new guys have to be possessed by one, then exorcised. Somebody is up to something, they just don't jump in any meat suit standing at the 40k Subway.
Co'tor Shas wrote: Well radical inquisitors and traitor guard psykers, but otherwise I don't see any way they would. Orks hate demon as much as they hate anybody else, eldar wouldn't do it, SMs would veiw it as heresy, loyalist psykers would be killed for heresy, ect.
Orks don't hate. Orks love. We love a good fight. And we love you if you bring a good fight. And we'z gona kill you for it.
Co'tor Shas wrote: Well radical inquisitors and traitor guard psykers, but otherwise I don't see any way they would. Orks hate demon as much as they hate anybody else, eldar wouldn't do it, SMs would veiw it as heresy, loyalist psykers would be killed for heresy, ect.
Orks don't hate. Orks love. We love a good fight. And we love you if you bring a good fight. And we'z gona kill you for it.
It's a strange love but it works
Orks and Yarrick sitting in a tree
K-I-L-L-I-N-G...
Game wise it will have some strange combinations on the play table as for fluff;
Fluff has left the GW building, thank you very much.
And all the people who try to justify it fluff wise, if you OPENLY deal with demons in the 40K universe then you are a heretic, even Inquisitors who use demons, get hunted down eventually.
Jehan-reznor wrote: And all the people who try to justify it fluff wise, if you OPENLY deal with demons in the 40K universe then you are a heretic, even Inquisitors who use demons, get hunted down eventually.
No one is disagreeing with this. What's your point? Is it against the background for include a psyker (who happens to be fighting alongside a loyalist force) to give in to temptation and summon daemons?
I agree that a loyalist space marine summoning a a bloddthirster, or an eldar farseer summoing a slaneeshi daemon would be ridiculous, but what I hope to see (and plan to do myself with) is people using the fluff and using alternate models to "pretend" that the daemons being summoned aren't really daemons. For example, I saw a Space Wolf player on the forums the other day saying he will be summoning blood letters, but using converted space wolf models and pretending that they are the wulfen from the lost 13th company. If people can do this well, daemonolgy will add a really great fluff aspect to the game! (I hope to try and convert a bunch of savage boys from WHFB and use them as mad boys counting as blood letters to be summond by my weird boy)
MarsNZ wrote: Yes, it is. Picking powers from Malefic implies a prior knowledge of daemonology, rather than something the psyker does on a whim.
Does it? I must be misreading the leak, then, because the only thing that implies this is the "vile ritual" wording of the Primaris, and that's hardly conclusive.
Yes, it does. The fact that psykers are limited to certain disciplines obviously implies prior knowledge of those disciplines. Otherwise it'd be a psychic free-for-all.
Why can't I take Divination on my Chaos Sorceror? Is that representing my Sorc not liking that tree and therefore avoiding it even though it is entirely within his power to use it on a whim?
MarsNZ wrote: Yes, it does. The fact that psykers are limited to certain disciplines obviously implies prior knowledge of those disciplines. Otherwise it'd be a psychic free-for-all.
Why can't I take Divination on my Chaos Sorceror? Is that representing my Sorc not liking that tree and therefore avoiding it even though it is entirely within his power to use it on a whim?
You have a point. However, I still don't see how having the option to take something can be considered unfluffy. Because Librarians are well versed in warp-craft, it's entirely reasonable that they may have read from a forbidden grimoire. Therefore, it is possible, if unlikely, that they can know some forbidden rituals. And if it's possible in the fluff, it should be possible on the tabletop. Perhaps our different opinions come from how likely we think it is in the background?
To take the example we know, (Ezekiel), it seems reasonable to me that he could know how to summon a daemon. I take it you don't think so?
(Sorry if any of this sounds snippy - the questions are meant to see if we can pinpoint why we disagree )
MarsNZ wrote: Yes, it does. The fact that psykers are limited to certain disciplines obviously implies prior knowledge of those disciplines. Otherwise it'd be a psychic free-for-all.
Why can't I take Divination on my Chaos Sorceror? Is that representing my Sorc not liking that tree and therefore avoiding it even though it is entirely within his power to use it on a whim?
You have a point. However, I still don't see how having the option to take something can be considered unfluffy. Because Librarians are well versed in warp-craft, it's entirely reasonable that they may have read from a forbidden grimoire. Therefore, it is possible, if unlikely, that they can know some forbidden rituals. And if it's possible in the fluff, it should be possible on the tabletop. Perhaps our different opinions come from how likely we think it is in the background?
To take the example we know, (Ezekiel), it seems reasonable to me that he could know how to summon a daemon. I take it you don't think so?
(Sorry if any of this sounds snippy - the questions are meant to see if we can pinpoint why we disagree )
I think we're all forgetting the most important fact:
-Tzeentch could grant them the information on a whim if the psyker would ever give in to chaos. The psyker does not need to have had much study if a chaos god intervenes.
Taking into account that you select powers before going into battle, it's entirely possible to read that as the psyker predicting his faction's imminent failure in the fight, and takes pointers from Tzeentch to "ensure" success.
And then Tzeentch screws him over, just as planned.
Shas'o_Longshot wrote: Is it against the background for include a psyker (who happens to be fighting alongside a loyalist force) to give in to temptation and summon daemons?
I'd say... not necessarily, but the problems really start once the daemon arrives.
If the summoned daemon can be trusted to fight alongside the imperial forces - i.e. if the summoning player controls it like any other unit - then yes, it's against the background.
If the rest of the imperial force doesn't react to it then yes, it's against the background. Sure, there are space marine chapters that are already on the edge of renegade status who may not care, but can you imagine the Ultramarines taking no notice? The Space Wolves? Any Primaris Psyker who summons a daemon - regardless of the situation - is going to be summarily executed five seconds later by the nearest Commissar, no questions asked. And any loyalist guardsmen are going to panic when a giant bellowing warp abomination suddenly appears in their midst. Indeed the enemy would have to be dire for them not to see said daemon as the most immediate enemy threat on the battlefield and start shooting at it.
I hope there are rules to reflect at least some of this. I hope there's more to it than Perils of the Warp and CtA ally restrictions. I'm not confident there will be though.
I think it'd be interesting if, in a campaign, you started summoning daemons and your force slowly turned to Chaos over time. Last week you summoned a Daemon as a last resort, this week you're looking at your allies kinda funny...
Shas'o_Longshot wrote: Is it against the background for include a psyker (who happens to be fighting alongside a loyalist force) to give in to temptation and summon daemons?
I'd say... not necessarily, but the problems really start once the daemon arrives.
If the summoned daemon can be trusted to fight alongside the imperial forces - i.e. if the summoning player controls it like any other unit - then yes, it's against the background.
If the rest of the imperial force doesn't react to it then yes, it's against the background. Sure, there are space marine chapters that are already on the edge of renegade status who may not care, but can you imagine the Ultramarines taking no notice? The Space Wolves? Any Primaris Psyker who summons a daemon - regardless of the situation - is going to be summarily executed five seconds later by the nearest Commissar, no questions asked. And any loyalist guardsmen are going to panic when a giant bellowing warp abomination suddenly appears in their midst. Indeed the enemy would have to be dire for them not to see said daemon as the most immediate enemy threat on the battlefield and start shooting at it.
I hope there are rules to reflect at least some of this. I hope there's more to it than Perils of the Warp and CtA ally restrictions. I'm not confident there will be though.
GW said there would be "dire consequences" if you used malefic daemonlogy and you aren't Chaos but it didn't go into specifics. And if anyone read the White Dwarf article that started this whole argument with Ezekiel summoning a Bloodthirster, it said they let the player use malefic Daemonlogy to see how things would come out which would tell me that he isn't suppose to be using those powers and they let him out of fun and see how it would progress. We still don't know the vast majority of who will get what powers only that GK can only use the santic Daemonology and that Chaos can only use the malefic. Everyone else has yet to be confirmed.
If I recall correctly, couldn't the Thousand Sons pre-(and probably post-)Heresy summon some sort of familiars? I think, and again I'm not sure if I'm entirely right, that the familiars ended up being lesser daemons or some-such.
Now, these marines were all potent psykers and given years of training in forbidden lore to attain these skills, and it seemed hard enough for them to summon minor daemons. But now we have people willfully summoning up a Greater Demon, calling up to the sky "Khorne, you OWE me one!"
Obviously 40k lore has never been consistent, but a lot of what was inconsistent was the history of events, told from different viewpoints. This is more of a change of one of the core elements of 40k fluff, like as if the new Star Wars movie said "hey, everyone has metachlorians (which was stupid in-and-of-itself) and be a jedi/sith! In fact, it's always been this way!"
Thorgrim Bloodcrow wrote: Hey man! We're so loyal we have a VIP club card! I believe you're referring to our 13th Company who had a bad case of geneseed and WILLINGLY threw themselves into the Warp to battle the forces of Chaos. Let's see your Salamanders do that.
Bludbaff wrote: I was under the impression that Sanctic powers were going to be the new system for Faith. I mean, they are manifestations of the Emperor's will, right? That sounds an awful lot like Emperor-guided warp manifestations.
Faith does not work like psychic powers. You do not dispel Faith. You do not start magical duels of minds with Faith. You do not loose Faith because some psycher has a psychic hoods, or tyranid synapse creatures are nearby, or anything like that.
Accolade wrote: If I recall correctly, couldn't the Thousand Sons pre-(and probably post-)Heresy summon some sort of familiars? I think, and again I'm not sure if I'm entirely right, that the familiars ended up being lesser daemons or some-such.
Now, these marines were all potent psykers and given years of training in forbidden lore to attain these skills, and it seemed hard enough for them to summon minor daemons. But now we have people willfully summoning up a Greater Demon, calling up to the sky "Khorne, you OWE me one!"
Obviously 40k lore has never been consistent, but a lot of what was inconsistent was the history of events, told from different viewpoints. This is more of a change of one of the core elements of 40k fluff, like as if the new Star Wars movie said "hey, everyone has metachlorians (which was stupid in-and-of-itself) and be a jedi/sith! In fact, it's always been this way!"
Yes, the Thousand Sons did have familiars pre-heresy which were daemons in disguise. Tzeentch was wanting Magnus to be the start of the Heresy, not Horus. Those familiars were plants to ensure this happened but it was taking too long.
Jehan-reznor wrote: And all the people who try to justify it fluff wise, if you OPENLY deal with demons in the 40K universe then you are a heretic, even Inquisitors who use demons, get hunted down eventually.
No one is disagreeing with this. What's your point? Is it against the background for include a psyker (who happens to be fighting alongside a loyalist force) to give in to temptation and summon daemons?
It means the whole concept is a lot of BS, the whole 40k Lore is about silencing and killing those who had contact or know about demon's(Chaos) So if an Imperial Army uses demon's they should all count as massacred at the end of the battle because they are all executed by Commisars/Inquisitors/Chaplains etcetera.
Thorgrim Bloodcrow wrote: Hey man! We're so loyal we have a VIP club card! I believe you're referring to our 13th Company who had a bad case of geneseed and WILLINGLY threw themselves into the Warp to battle the forces of Chaos. Let's see your Salamanders do that.
Hey there's always one bad apple in the bunch and he was immediately taken care of. And I think there's a saying about people throwing stones in glass houses. Link
Envihon wrote: GW said there would be "dire consequences" if you used malefic daemonlogy and you aren't Chaos but it didn't go into specifics. And if anyone read the White Dwarf article that started this whole argument with Ezekiel summoning a Bloodthirster, it said they let the player use malefic Daemonlogy to see how things would come out which would tell me that he isn't suppose to be using those powers and they let him out of fun and see how it would progress. We still don't know the vast majority of who will get what powers only that GK can only use the santic Daemonology and that Chaos can only use the malefic. Everyone else has yet to be confirmed.
Thorgrim Bloodcrow wrote: Hey man! We're so loyal we have a VIP club card! I believe you're referring to our 13th Company who had a bad case of geneseed and WILLINGLY threw themselves into the Warp to battle the forces of Chaos. Let's see your Salamanders do that.
Hey there's always one bad apple in the bunch and he was immediately taken care of. And I think there's a saying about people throwing stones in glass houses. Link
Now show me the grey knight who fell to chaos..... OH WAIT....
As a Space Wolf player I'm honestly pretty excited about the whole thing. Would my Space Wolves summon a squad of Bloodletters? No. But they would bring in a squad of full on werewolves that I've converted from Bloodletters. My Rune Priest wouldn't sell his soul to a Blood Thurster either. Though he would trade his life to the Red Moon God for help.
This will let me use werewolves with my Space Wolves, so I like it. I can understand where plenty of people will have trouble with it though.
Name a book or any piece of fluff, when a completely loyal SM librarian summoned a demon and he didn't fall to chaos and everybody thought it was cool and didn't purge him on the spot. NOT fluffy, in fact it's pants on head.
beezley1981 wrote: As a Space Wolf player I'm honestly pretty excited about the whole thing. Would my Space Wolves summon a squad of Bloodletters? No. But they would bring in a squad of full on werewolves that I've converted from Bloodletters. My Rune Priest wouldn't sell his soul to a Blood Thurster either. Though he would trade his life to the Red Moon God for help.
This will let me use werewolves with my Space Wolves, so I like it. I can understand where plenty of people will have trouble with it though.
Yes through some conversions it would be really cool but IG and smurf marines and even my beloved GKs dont have anything that equals up to that. There in lies the problem.
well not the whole problem. the major issue in my opinion is that GW or the Black Library guys or who ever is much better at writing interesting and engaging stories than they are at writing sensible rules. And they are even worse at making those rules reflect the stories they have already told. And as fans and followers of these stories we as hobbyist expect them to live up to that and when they dont we get angry (and rightfully so) so i think thats the issue. Who knows maybe after some FAQ's and a few more codex updates everything will straighten out and 7th will be the godsend to fix 6th or it might just all be crap and crumble around our ears. But those are my thoughts on it.
Musashi363 wrote: Name a book or any piece of fluff, when a completely loyal SM librarian summoned a demon and he didn't fall to chaos and everybody thought it was cool and didn't purge him on the spot. NOT fluffy, in fact it's pants on head.
Exorcist space marines gotta get possessed somehow right?
herpguy wrote: In the wake of the new psychic power leaks it is really getting quite annoying now how having to argue with people that is makes no sense for anybody but chaos to summon daemons. It is really getting quite tiresome. Is anybody else having these issues?
Now that the allies chart has been leaked, it's something that really annoys me.
Imperials cannot ally in any sense (other than 'Come the Apocalypse') with Daemons, or with Chaos Marines, but they can summon daemons.
Really? Even in the 'narrative', it seems A LOT more freaking likely that an Imperial force might ally with CSM than just summon some daemons. I don't see it happening all that often, but I could see CSM and IG fighting off Tyranids, or fighting off Necrons, much more plausibly than a sanctioned Psycher just deciding to jump over the fence and summon a daemon or two.
I mean, sure, I can see that 'narratively', sometimes a psyker has a crisis of confidence, or a moment of weakness, and takes the plunge. But those things seem like the extreme exception to the rule, rather than something that might happen every so often. I mean, Space Marines sometimes turn to chaos, but that isn't reflected in the rules. Orks occasionally work as mercenaries for Imperial forces, but that isn't reflected in the rules. Space Marines sometimes walk around in tabards sipping water, but that isn't reflected in the rules.
I just think it's something that happens, sure, but something that happens so infrequently that GW shouldn't have been tempted to write rules for it.
On the other hand, it's an easy way to sell a Daemon codex and some models. It blows my mind that they used to allow CSM armies to have daemons, took that away from them, then allowed allies, and now allow CSM to summon daemons again. FFS, make up your minds!
Also, it's totally ridiculous to have rules allowing Tau to have human allies with Tau gear, despite it being in the fluff, and being a way to sell more models. It's totally ridiculous to allow Genestealer Cult armies, with suborned PDF forces and Genestealers, despite it being in the fluff, and being a way to sell more models. It's totally ridiculous to allow traitor guardsmen, despite it being ALL OVER the fluff, and being a way to sell more models. It's totally ridiculous to allow IG to have Blood Axe allies, despite being in the fluff and being a way to sell more models.
But if some idiot has ever, anywhere, summoned a daemon, then we have to have rules to allow every Space Marine Librarian and Eldar Farseer to do it, so we can sell more models.
Now an ultramarine librarian can summon a bloodthirster and the marines around him are ok with it? This is total stupidity and not the same game I've been playing for twenty years.
I'm done with playing 40k if this is the new idiocy it endorses.
Your psycher can go behind blos alone, summon daemons from there and when he's gona get asked about daemons he can make round eyes and say: "Daemons?! I haven't seen no daemons! I was just going behind a bush..."
And then they start running around Benny Hill style.
herpguy wrote: In the wake of the new psychic power leaks it is really getting quite annoying now how having to argue with people that is makes no sense for anybody but chaos to summon daemons. It is really getting quite tiresome. Is anybody else having these issues?
Now that the allies chart has been leaked, it's something that really annoys me.
Imperials cannot ally in any sense (other than 'Come the Apocalypse') with Daemons, or with Chaos Marines, but they can summon daemons.
Really? Even in the 'narrative', it seems A LOT more freaking likely that an Imperial force might ally with CSM than just summon some daemons. I don't see it happening all that often, but I could see CSM and IG fighting off Tyranids, or fighting off Necrons, much more plausibly than a sanctioned Psycher just deciding to jump over the fence and summon a daemon or two.
I mean, sure, I can see that 'narratively', sometimes a psyker has a crisis of confidence, or a moment of weakness, and takes the plunge. But those things seem like the extreme exception to the rule, rather than something that might happen every so often. I mean, Space Marines sometimes turn to chaos, but that isn't reflected in the rules. Orks occasionally work as mercenaries for Imperial forces, but that isn't reflected in the rules. Space Marines sometimes walk around in tabards sipping water, but that isn't reflected in the rules.
I just think it's something that happens, sure, but something that happens so infrequently that GW shouldn't have been tempted to write rules for it.
On the other hand, it's an easy way to sell a Daemon codex and some models. It blows my mind that they used to allow CSM armies to have daemons, took that away from them, then allowed allies, and now allow CSM to summon daemons again. FFS, make up your minds!
Also, it's totally ridiculous to have rules allowing Tau to have human allies with Tau gear, despite it being in the fluff, and being a way to sell more models. It's totally ridiculous to allow Genestealer Cult armies, with suborned PDF forces and Genestealers, despite it being in the fluff, and being a way to sell more models. It's totally ridiculous to allow traitor guardsmen, despite it being ALL OVER the fluff, and being a way to sell more models. It's totally ridiculous to allow IG to have Blood Axe allies, despite being in the fluff and being a way to sell more models.
But if some idiot has ever, anywhere, summoned a daemon, then we have to have rules to allow every Space Marine Librarian and Eldar Farseer to do it, so we can sell more models.
This.
These are pretty much my sentiments exactly. It's quite annoying that everybody else in my gaming group (no other chaos players) say that I'm just whining and that it makes perfect sense for a sm to summon daemons (sm players saying this) to represent a moment of weakness. It is just mind-boggling that anybody who has read any shred of space marine fluff would be okay with this. Eldar are probably even less likely to have this happen, as summoning a daemon most certainly damns their soul and opens up a gateway to probably damn the whole craftworld to being a Slaanesh buffet.
That the daemons are under the players control if they are not chaos is what breaks this completely. IF some crazed librarian summons a daemon, that daemon most certainly will not do the will of whoever is commanding the space marine force. Anyways, I'm sure it could be counted on a pair of hands the amount of times a librarian has gone insane enough to summon daemons in TEN THOUSAND YEARS of history.
As you said, the new allies chart is the even bigger kick in the nuts. I can't see how people can argue for something like random daemon summoning to be common enough to be in the rules when there can't even be TRAITOR GUARD, which are pretty much a part of every single major CSM warband.
Jehan-reznor wrote:It means the whole concept is a lot of BS, the whole 40k Lore is about silencing and killing those who had contact or know about demon's(Chaos) So if an Imperial Army uses demon's they should all count as massacred at the end of the battle because they are all executed by Commisars/Inquisitors/Chaplains etcetera.
I don't know about you, but that sounds like a kick-ass idea for a follow-up game...
Musashi363 wrote:Name a book or any piece of fluff, when a completely loyal SM librarian summoned a demon and he didn't fall to chaos and everybody thought it was cool and didn't purge him on the spot. NOT fluffy, in fact it's pants on head.
Now you're being ridiculous. If he's summoning a daemon, he's either misguided or not completely loyal. Why would a loyalist think it was "cool"?
That's a poor piece of background in my opinion. Those who become Space Wolves are supposed to be dying before they're claimed by the Chapter. That alongside their further training and indoctrination should mean that they're not afraid of simply dying. No Space Marine should be.
Musashi363 wrote:Name a book or any piece of fluff, when a completely loyal SM librarian summoned a demon and he didn't fall to chaos and everybody thought it was cool and didn't purge him on the spot. NOT fluffy, in fact it's pants on head.
Now you're being ridiculous. If he's summoning a daemon, he's either misguided or not completely loyal. Why would a loyalist think it was "cool"?
Well, if a loyal psyker or an Eldar summons Daemons and controls them, coordinating their attacks with the rest of the army against a common enemy, as if the Daemons were part of the same force, then it seems the loyalist think it is 'cool'.
The psyker should be instantly killed by their own people if (s)he starts summoning Daemons, and the Daemons should attack randomly, and not under control of the player who summoned them. That´s fluffy.
What is "pants on head" silly is seeing a SM Librarian or (even worse) an Eldar Farseer summoning Daemons and controlling them, while the rest of the army do nothing to purge this all-out heretic abomination.
Also, a Lord of Change summoning a Great Unclean is even worse.
That's a poor piece of background in my opinion. Those who become Space Wolves are supposed to be dying before they're claimed by the Chapter. That alongside their further training and indoctrination should mean that they're not afraid of simply dying. No Space Marine should be.
Yet they are.
The ATSKNF rule is (partly) propaganda. We know for sure they fear death (and failure in the eyes of their superiors, and shame, and peer pressure, and even pain if the torturer is good enough) and change sides. Thanks to the psycho-indoctrination it is really difficult to happen, but there are many novels & background entries about Marines saying ' the Emperor, I am out of here'. The result is a CSM, who no longer has ATSKNF.
I find it funny when people complain about the possibility of Marines going traitor. What about the Badab War? The Horus Heresy? Marines going traitor is an important part of the setting.
That's my main problem with it... If a loyalist does happen to summon a daemon, it is usually an accident, and not planned, or is a moment of weakness, that daemon isn't going to follow this new psyker on a whim though, they're not going to be like 'oh cheers mate, you got me out of that warp thing, I like you. Bro's for life we are' they're going to kill, rape or enslave anything and everything in sight if it suits them too. I mean why would any khorne daemon side with any blood angel. The only possible and slight explanation would be to gain further status and they have a rivalry with Ka'Bandha and the opposite way round.
Now if the powers worked in the way that the daemons summoned were random, and not in the control of either player, sort of how nids react when out of synapse range... I'd then be more okay with them.
There is no possible explanation for a loyalist librarian, summoning a daemon out of desperation and the daemon bowing to this librarian. Unless it was Tzeentch, and well, we know they aren't in control then.
SomeRandomEvilGuy wrote: That's a poor piece of background in my opinion. Those who become Space Wolves are supposed to be dying before they're claimed by the Chapter. That alongside their further training and indoctrination should mean that they're not afraid of simply dying. No Space Marine should be.
It has been an established part of the background for a long time that marines regularly fall to Chaos. Actually, it is more of a joke now. Like :
How do you prevent a marine from falling to Chaos ?
Spoiler:
You kill him, that is the only way to be sure .
Anyhow, I was answering to Thorgrim Bloodcrow claiming that Space Wolves are less likely to fall to chaos than Salamanders. The fluff does not go that way.
White Dwarf had a new (to me anyway) bit of fluff that said that as part of creating new Space Marines for the Exorcists Chapter a Daemon is summoned and allowed to possess the initiate and later banished.
Add in Daemonhosts and Radical Inquisitors.....
There are some on the Imperium who def do it.........
SomeRandomEvilGuy wrote: That's a poor piece of background in my opinion. Those who become Space Wolves are supposed to be dying before they're claimed by the Chapter. That alongside their further training and indoctrination should mean that they're not afraid of simply dying. No Space Marine should be.
It has been an established part of the background for a long time that marines regularly fall to Chaos. Actually, it is more of a joke now. Like :
How do you prevent a marine from falling to Chaos ?
Spoiler:
You kill him, that is the only way to be sure .
Anyhow, I was answering to Thorgrim Bloodcrow claiming that Space Wolves are less likely to fall to chaos than Salamanders. The fluff does not go that way.
Yeah... I never once said that. Not once. Not even a little bit. Nothing even close to that. The only thing I said in regards to Salamanders was about the 13th Company who willingly went into the Warp to battle Chaos. I never once said anything about Salamanders being more likely or saying Space Wolves were less likely.
I find it funny when people complain about the possibility of Marines going traitor. What about the Badab War? The Horus Heresy? Marines going traitor is an important part of the setting.
Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:It has been an established part of the background for a long time that marines regularly fall to Chaos. Actually, it is more of a joke now. Like :
I have nothing against Space Marines turning traitor. Aside from the one piece of background though I've never seen one that has them turn purely because otherwise they would have died. Chaos tempts them, they get fed up with Imperial bureaucracy, they stand by their principles and the Imperium rejects them and whatnot. I'm even fine with them fearing failure or being forgotten. But that background suggests they did wholly out of a fear of death, which strikes me as very much out of character for Space Marines.
I find it funny when people complain about the possibility of Marines going traitor. What about the Badab War? The Horus Heresy? Marines going traitor is an important part of the setting.
Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:It has been an established part of the background for a long time that marines regularly fall to Chaos. Actually, it is more of a joke now. Like :
I have nothing against Space Marines turning traitor. Aside from the one piece of background though I've never seen one that has them turn purely because otherwise they would have died. Chaos tempts them, they get fed up with Imperial bureaucracy, they stand by their principles and the Imperium rejects them and whatnot. I'm even fine with them fearing failure or being forgotten. But that background suggests they did wholly out of a fear of death, which strikes me as very much out of character for Space Marines.
If a loyalist SM was to summon a daemon his battle brothers would put a bolt through his skull. That is the only response to heresy of that magnitude. He would be obviously tainted beyond redemption and sided with the great enemy. If you are playing some on the fence, renegade chapter then sure, but never, ever should this be acceptable otherwise. As I've stated in another post, fluff and background is important. It's basically the reason I play this game. If I don't like the background, no matter how good the system is I won't play...however if the system is a bit flawed but I love the setting I will. This is becoming a case of screwed up fluff and a sub par system. Disregarding this edition and just sticking with an older rule set is more than likely the way I'm going to go.
Gridge wrote: If a loyalist SM was to summon a daemon his battle brothers would put a bolt through his skull.
True for pre-7th edition fluff. Clearly not true now.
Now his battle brothers would brofist both him and the bloodthirster he summoned to fight for them, and then go back to battling alongside their tyranid allies in their non-battle forged force.
Gridge wrote: If a loyalist SM was to summon a daemon his battle brothers would put a bolt through his skull.
True for pre-7th edition fluff. Clearly not true now.
Now his battle brothers would brofist both him and the bloodthirster he summoned to fight for them, and then go back to battling alongside their tyranid allies in their non-battle forged force.
I feel like at this point every single rule, identity, and restriction Games Workshop has ever made for anything40k has been gone back on, violated, or been made exception to.
Also, as was pointed out earlier, this thread isn't even about that. This thread is about those among us who see no problem with fielding anything ever. I for one can understand giving the option for most psykers to use darker magic... It rarely happens, but it does happen. Just not for Eldar. What's that? Eldar get Malefic Daemonology?
Even the most radical of inquisitors would not summon a demon- that's heresy. The idea of demonhosts is that its letting a demon temporarily posses someone in a very limited and controlled way- no inquisitor would let a piking Bloodthirster on the battlefield.
MWHistorian wrote: This is so stupid that we have to argue that an Ultramarine librarian shouldn't be allowed to summon bloodthirsters. How low has this game become?
Mysterious Pants wrote: Even the most radical of inquisitors would not summon a demon- that's heresy. The idea of demonhosts is that its letting a demon temporarily posses someone in a very limited and controlled way- no inquisitor would let a piking Bloodthirster on the battlefield.
Loyal imperials shouldn't be summoning demons.
Yeah the road to damnation is getting to its end when when you start binding Daemonhosts and thinking you have it all under "control" - as mentioned earlier - apparently they summon Daemons all the time just to make new Exorcists Marines.............(White Dwarf 17)
Inquisitors are even more likely to fall to Chaos than Marines - virtually every BL novel has one of them do so.
morpheuschild wrote: loyal imperials summoning demons? isn't that how the horus heresy happened, consorting with the powers of chaos?
i can see if it happens accidentally, or through deception, but i can't see a loyal psyker consciously summoning demonic entities.
if you want to play an army that uses demons, play chaos marines...
So it's stupid for an Imperial Guard psyker, who probably has little knowledge of what he's doing half the time and is out of his mind, to summon Demons of his own free will? Is it ridiculous for a librarian, lead astray, to summon Demons of his own free will?
We also have to consider that GW is going for a 'do whatever, be whatever, field whatever' stance in 7th Edition, so you have to consider that many people will be proxying stuff within armies and for their army demon summoning may make sense.
i think 'out of his mind' and 'led astray' would probably qualify under 'accidentally' and 'through deception'...
da001 wrote: Aside from the one piece of background though I've never seen one that has them turn purely because otherwise they would have died.
All Nurgle marines turned because the feared death.
There's dozens of thousands of the guys.
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Mysterious Pants wrote: Even the most radical of inquisitors would not summon a demon- that's heresy. The idea of demonhosts is that its letting a demon temporarily posses someone in a very limited and controlled way- no inquisitor would let a piking Bloodthirster on the battlefield.
What about Inquisitorial heretics?
IIRC in the Ultramarines' Omnibus (I can't remember exactly which book), there is an Inquisitor who was being prepared for execution, having gone on a heretical rampage.
I find it funny when people complain about the possibility of Marines going traitor. What about the Badab War? The Horus Heresy? Marines going traitor is an important part of the setting.
Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:It has been an established part of the background for a long time that marines regularly fall to Chaos. Actually, it is more of a joke now. Like :
I have nothing against Space Marines turning traitor. Aside from the one piece of background though I've never seen one that has them turn purely because otherwise they would have died. Chaos tempts them, they get fed up with Imperial bureaucracy, they stand by their principles and the Imperium rejects them and whatnot. I'm even fine with them fearing failure or being forgotten. But that background suggests they did wholly out of a fear of death, which strikes me as very much out of character for Space Marines.
Or the Space Wolves aboard the Wolf of Fenris that turned on their brothers.
The whole debate comes down to shouldn't vs can't.
A Farseer or Librarian really shouldn't summon daemons from the perspective of their faction, but that doesn't mean they can't. Just they shouldn't doesn't mean they won't.
It's still a little funny seeing how the likes of Blood Angel cannot or will not under any circumstances use pyromancy but will summon daemons though.
I find it funny when people complain about the possibility of Marines going traitor. What about the Badab War? The Horus Heresy? Marines going traitor is an important part of the setting.
I have nothing against Space Marines turning traitor. Aside from the one piece of background though I've never seen one that has them turn purely because otherwise they would have died.
What´s the point of spending an eternity of torment reading tomes of forbidden knowledge that mutilate my soul and shatter my sanity just to be mistaken with some random evil guy?
(Just joking, of course, it happens to me too)
@SomeRandomEvilGuy: On a serious note, it is not only death the wolves feared. Also fear of having failed the Chapter and the standards of those who chose them. And more important: fear of not fullfilling the glorious destiny that MUST be part of any member of the Rout.
Think about it: all Wolves want to be part of a legend, all want songs to be composed to include them in a Saga. Of course, they want to be the Hero. But, seeing that they were not gonna make it, that they will die a shameful death, the warriors of The Wolf from Fenris chose to be the Villain.
Makes a lot of sense. And it is not the only example in the background. Lots of them, actually. Marines turn all the time, and it is usually because they fear failure, or because they feel like they are more than humans (and thus deserve aditional privileges), or because they get lost in what they do. Chaos is a concept, an emotion. Temptation is an inner enemy.
Mysterious Pants wrote: Even the most radical of inquisitors would not summon a demon- that's heresy. The idea of demonhosts is that its letting a demon temporarily posses someone in a very limited and controlled way- no inquisitor would let a piking Bloodthirster on the battlefield.
Loyal imperials shouldn't be summoning demons.
About Inquisitors and Daemonhosts, I would like to recommend you a book: Eisenhorn. It is (imo) one of the best books ever written for the Black Library, and it covers the matter.
Reading books about Inquisitors, sometimes it seems that about half the Inquisitors are chaos worshippers, and half of those that still consider themselves loyalists are having doubts or indulge in daemonology, heresy or worse.
Slightly off topic but still on ... My group were discussing this exact issue the other day when we thought in 7th why not just move the setting forward 5 years so the Abaddons the 13th crusade ends. instead of chaos victory at the last hour a psyker in battle manifest and transformed into a great winged creature of light turning the tide and sending the crusade back into the eye of terror.
This creature obviously being an angel would be a warp manifestation of the Emperor (you would think with billions of people worshipping him daily he would manifest as a god in all its power).
This would balance out the forces of good with those of chaos, establish in fluff the good guys ability to summon a powerful warp entity and hopefully satisfy the fluff lovers!
MWHistorian wrote: This is so stupid that we have to argue that an Ultramarine librarian shouldn't be allowed to summon bloodthirsters. How low has this game become?
rock bottom apparently
Guess who is coming back in the 7th edition DE codex!
If you summon daemons, as loyal IG, SM, Inquisition, etc. You'll be declared a heretic and have the taint of chaos in you. You will then be promptly hunted down by other Imperium forces and destroyed. Good luck justifying that summoning with the Inquisition and High Lords of Terra. If your army has a Commissar your psyker would be shot immediately and the offending commander who allowed/ordered it would also be shot. I doubt even the Catachan's would save them from a swift execution at the hands of a Commissar, hell it would be the first time they would help a commissar shoot one of their officers.
'U wot u'z iz sayin dat others dan da spikey ladz be summinz dem der warp boyz! We'z need to gets to Crumpin Edz!'
But no, I seriously hope loyalist will not be summoning demons. That will just completely piss off the Exorcists Chapter only they are allowed to possess people, albeit temporarily.
Rune Stonegrinder wrote: If you summon daemons, as loyal IG, SM, Inquisition, etc. You'll be declared a heretic and have the taint of chaos in you. You will then be promptly hunted down by other Imperium forces and destroyed. Good luck justifying that summoning with the Inquisition and High Lords of Terra. If your army has a Commissar your psyker would be shot immediately and the offending commander who allowed/ordered it would also be shot. I doubt even the Catachan's would save them from a swift execution at the hands of a Commissar, hell it would be the first time they would help a commissar shoot one of their officers.
What about those regiments (or, hell, entire worlds) that have been raised to believe Daemons are good?
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Raz'kull Skull Krusha wrote: 'U wot u'z iz sayin dat others dan da spikey ladz be summinz dem der warp boyz! We'z need to gets to Crumpin Edz!'
But no, I seriously hope loyalist will not be summoning demons. That will just completely piss off the Exorcists Chapter only they are allowed to possess people, albeit temporarily.
Any psyker can summon a daemon. Doesn't matter who they are, who trained them, or how powerful they are.
Every psyker in 40k can summon daemons. This is the reason the Imperium kills most of theirs.
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Rune Stonegrinder wrote: If you summon daemons, as loyal IG, SM, Inquisition, etc. You'll be declared a heretic and have the taint of chaos in you. You will then be promptly hunted down by other Imperium forces and destroyed. Good luck justifying that summoning with the Inquisition and High Lords of Terra. If your army has a Commissar your psyker would be shot immediately and the offending commander who allowed/ordered it would also be shot. I doubt even the Catachan's would save them from a swift execution at the hands of a Commissar, hell it would be the first time they would help a commissar shoot one of their officers.
Oh yes, that's true. But they can if they want to and/or suck at controlling themselves.
Rune Stonegrinder wrote: If you summon daemons, as loyal IG, SM, Inquisition, etc. You'll be declared a heretic and have the taint of chaos in you. You will then be promptly hunted down by other Imperium forces and destroyed. Good luck justifying that summoning with the Inquisition and High Lords of Terra. If your army has a Commissar your psyker would be shot immediately and the offending commander who allowed/ordered it would also be shot. I doubt even the Catachan's would save them from a swift execution at the hands of a Commissar, hell it would be the first time they would help a commissar shoot one of their officers.
What about those regiments (or, hell, entire worlds) that have been raised to believe Daemons are good?
Being told taught that is one thing, doing the summoning is different. I'm sure the Ordo Malleus will give them the thumbs up for summoning deamons.
Ordo Malleus inquisitor in communication to offending planet while in orbit: 'sure we understand summoning deamons is a "good" thing in your society its totally forgiveable. Its just the times, you needed absolute victory so you answered the call of Choas, no problem I totally understand it was for the Emperor.' ends communication.....looks at the the Grey Knight ship captian: why are you looking at me. You know what to do, Exterminatus. Its for thier own good.'
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DarknessEternal wrote: Any psyker can summon a daemon. Doesn't matter who they are, who trained them, or how powerful they are.
Every psyker in 40k can summon daemons. This is the reason the Imperium kills most of theirs.
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Rune Stonegrinder wrote: If you summon daemons, as loyal IG, SM, Inquisition, etc. You'll be declared a heretic and have the taint of chaos in you. You will then be promptly hunted down by other Imperium forces and destroyed. Good luck justifying that summoning with the Inquisition and High Lords of Terra. If your army has a Commissar your psyker would be shot immediately and the offending commander who allowed/ordered it would also be shot. I doubt even the Catachan's would save them from a swift execution at the hands of a Commissar, hell it would be the first time they would help a commissar shoot one of their officers.
Oh yes, that's true. But they can if they want to and/or suck at controlling themselves.
I forgot to end that properly..... and then they shoot the commissar
you all realize i'm just stiring the pot/kicking the hornet's nest...right
Side note: It's explicitly stated that the Exorcists space marines chapter's daemon possession schtick that if it were ever discovered, they'd be prosecuted for the crime.
Now, I'm pretty sure summoning daemons is even worse than the exorcists' alleged practice of posessing and then exorcising daemons from their neophytes.
Again, you guys are looking at this from the perspective of old, outdated fluff.
In 7th edition 40K, not only can everybody except the Grey Knights summon daemons freely, they also apparently gain a ton of control over the daemon. Ultramarines fighting Plague Marines can summon a Great Unclean One, and that Great Unclean One will not simply slaughter the Ultramarines, it will actually go after the Plague Marines. This is a massive departure from the way things were before.
7th edition obviously makes significant changes to the lore.
Just in! Going forward space marines can now use rip tides! It was stated in a book somewhere that some obscure chapter used tau technology to win against an nid invasion.
When asked why he used xeno filth technology the space marine in question said "I forgot we weren't supposed to."
When asked about this fluff a GW rep was quoted as saying it was to forge narrative we asked for more comments but he couldn't stop laughing.
We now go live to the forums where loyal fans are making outrageous defences towards new questionable fluff.
Inkubas wrote: Just in! Going forward space marines can now use rip tides! It was stated in a book somewhere that some obscure chapter used tau technology to win against an nid invasion.
When asked why he used xeno filth technology the space marine in question said "I forgot we weren't supposed to."
When asked about this fluff a GW rep was quoted as saying it was to forge narrative we asked for more comments but he couldn't stop laughing.
We now go live to the forums where loyal fans are making outrageous defences towards new questionable fluff.
They, uh, could take riptides in 6th too, either in a allied detachment or in a data slate.
Triton wrote: Again, you guys are looking at this from the perspective of old, outdated fluff.
In 7th edition 40K, not only can everybody except the Grey Knights summon daemons freely, they also apparently gain a ton of control over the daemon. Ultramarines fighting Plague Marines can summon a Great Unclean One, and that Great Unclean One will not simply slaughter the Ultramarines, it will actually go after the Plague Marines. This is a massive departure from the way things were before.
7th edition obviously makes significant changes to the lore.
But, but!
Father NUrgle taught us to accept eachother, and to bring the universe to it's logical end of entropy together! Us Nurglites are bros 4 lyfe!
Ashiraya wrote: I would like an explanation for why on earth CSM can use all psychic disciplines except telekinesis.
Is there any kind of reason or logic behind this or was it just another mandatory addition to ensure CSM stay SM-1?
I'm still trying to figure out why they hate the Orks so much. I don't even play the greenskins and I feel bad for them. I think they should at least get Biomancy and Pyromancy. They're Orks, aren't they all about being bigger and tougher (Biomancy buffs) and I'm no expert on them, but I assume they enjoy setting things aflame as much as the next guy.
Well really everything lost something except for IG and Vanilla marines. How dare some pitiful human psyker have more capability than my Rune Priests! *anger! shouting!* Yassin Sassin Snazzum Frazzum!
The argument that "They were tricked!" is paper thin. What so every single battle this Librarian keeps "accidentally" summoning daemons? A daemonic incursion is literally supposed to be the worst thing that can happen to a world. Millions died in the wake of the 1st war of armageddon just because a couple of people saw some daemons, let alone summoned them.
The whole point of the librarius and sanctioned psykers, is limiting their own strengths as to minimise the chance of chaos corruption. Over step that mark and you become a sorceror, at which point you would be considered Chaos.
No one just "one off" summons a daemon horde. Do it once grudgingly and next time it becomes a little easier and easier to do it. Yes it might explain the fall of Space Marines, so use that in your own background fluff, not in the game,
For me this represents a trend that started with apocalypse, got worse with Allies, then Knights, and now it's taking over the whole game. And that is GW's policy of sales over substance. If everyone can use them, everyone can buy them. It's eroding the foundations of the game. Literally the only reason that 40k has survived so long is because of the rich background. It damn sure isn't balanced rules or sanely priced models.
Sure I totally agree that you don't have to use the new powers, but it is yet another example of fluffy players being handicapped while giving more options for power gamers to create absurd combinations that abuse the rules.
Under the old system, if you wanted to add in models from another army for fluff reasons, then you could house rule with your friends and play as you like, whereas the power abuses were restricted by the core rules. Now they've flipped it, where fairness is optional, and doing whatever the hell you feel like is standard and encouraged.
I think we are about to lose one of the last things that is still good about this game, finally tainted by greed, just like White Dwarf, prices, supplements, data sheets etc. This company barely represents the hobby I started playing 15 years ago.
KorPhaeron77 wrote: The argument that "They were tricked!" is paper thin. What so every single battle this Librarian keeps "accidentally" summoning daemons? A daemonic incursion is literally supposed to be the worst thing that can happen to a world. Dozens of Billions died in the wake of the 1st war of armageddon just because a couple of people saw some daemons, let alone summoned them.
The argument that "They were tricked!" is paper thin. What so every single battle this Librarian keeps "accidentally" summoning daemons? A daemonic incursion is literally supposed to be the worst thing that can happen to a world. Millions died in the wake of the 1st war of armageddon just because a couple of people saw some daemons, let alone summoned them.
True but its also fair to say that in each 40k battle with Marines involved, a Chapter often losses a substantial part of its forces - a few weeks gaming and they are likely destroyed - and that's not to mention how often named characters turn in small skirmishes?
Triton wrote: Again, you guys are looking at this from the perspective of old, outdated fluff.
In 7th edition 40K, not only can everybody except the Grey Knights summon daemons freely, they also apparently gain a ton of control over the daemon. Ultramarines fighting Plague Marines can summon a Great Unclean One, and that Great Unclean One will not simply slaughter the Ultramarines, it will actually go after the Plague Marines. This is a massive departure from the way things were before.
7th edition obviously makes significant changes to the lore.
None of that is a change to the lore. It was always explicitly possible.
Just like it's always been possible for the Imperium to shatter planets with giant rocks too. Just because something is possible doesn't mean it happens frequently.
KorPhaeron77 wrote: The argument that "They were tricked!" is paper thin. What so every single battle this Librarian keeps "accidentally" summoning daemons? A daemonic incursion is literally supposed to be the worst thing that can happen to a world. Millions died in the wake of the 1st war of armageddon just because a couple of people saw some daemons, let alone summoned them.
The whole point of the librarius and sanctioned psykers, is limiting their own strengths as to minimise the chance of chaos corruption. Over step that mark and you become a sorceror, at which point you would be considered Chaos.
No one just "one off" summons a daemon horde. Do it once grudgingly and next time it becomes a little easier and easier to do it. Yes it might explain the fall of Space Marines, so use that in your own background fluff, not in the game,
For me this represents a trend that started with apocalypse, got worse with Allies, then Knights, and now it's taking over the whole game. And that is GW's policy of sales over substance. If everyone can use them, everyone can buy them. It's eroding the foundations of the game. Literally the only reason that 40k has survived so long is because of the rich background. It damn sure isn't balanced rules or sanely priced models.
Sure I totally agree that you don't have to use the new powers, but it is yet another example of fluffy players being handicapped while giving more options for power gamers to create absurd combinations that abuse the rules.
Under the old system, if you wanted to add in models from another army for fluff reasons, then you could house rule with your friends and play as you like, whereas the power abuses were restricted by the core rules. Now they've flipped it, where fairness is optional, and doing whatever the hell you feel like is standard and encouraged.
I think we are about to lose one of the last things that is still good about this game, finally tainted by greed, just like White Dwarf, prices, supplements, data sheets etc. This company barely represents the hobby I started playing 15 years ago.
I agree with every word.
One little thing though: I don´t think 40k is surviving due to the background any longer: many new players openly mock at the childish, dumb stuff they read in their books. The reasons that keep 40k on, in my opinion, are:
1) it is easier to find 40k players than to find people to play any other game;
2) many players have invested a LOT of money, time and effort in something they love and don´t want to see gone, and
3) the old style is still there. To begin with, we focus on the changes but most of everything they sell (like 90% of the rules, the fluff and even the models) is still copy-paste. And some aditions (some black library books, some models, some FW stuff) are still brilliant, so we keep spending money and talking about how awesome 40k is.
Something I feel is that everything is about to change. People is trying new things, competition in the market is growing and the 3D-printer apocalypse is coming... I actually welcome all the madness, because I believe it will eventually evolve into something useful. Night is always darker right before the dawn.
I believe that ten years from here 40k will still be here, and I believe that in that bright future, we will have a proper Sister´s Codex, Chaos Legions, Mechanicus, the Lost and the Damned and lots of Xenos, and it will not be allowed for a loyalist Librarian or an Eldar Farseer to summon a Daemon. And Draigo will be remembered just like Inquisitor Obiwan Sherlock Clousseau is remembered now: as an inner joke, not really that funny and quite embarrassing.
DarknessEternal wrote: None of that is a change to the lore. It was always explicitly possible.
No. It was never explicitly possible for an Ultramarines librarian to bind a greater daemon of Chaos to his will, without a daemonhost, and oblige it to fight the forces of Chaos.
Nor is it something that has ever happened in the fluff until this point.
Look, I get that people are going to want to justify their absurd loyalist daemon-summoning shenanigans, but come on.
KorPhaeron77 wrote: The argument that "They were tricked!" is paper thin. What so every single battle this Librarian keeps "accidentally" summoning daemons? A daemonic incursion is literally supposed to be the worst thing that can happen to a world. Millions died in the wake of the 1st war of armageddon just because a couple of people saw some daemons, let alone summoned them.
The whole point of the librarius and sanctioned psykers, is limiting their own strengths as to minimise the chance of chaos corruption. Over step that mark and you become a sorceror, at which point you would be considered Chaos.
No one just "one off" summons a daemon horde. Do it once grudgingly and next time it becomes a little easier and easier to do it. Yes it might explain the fall of Space Marines, so use that in your own background fluff, not in the game,
For me this represents a trend that started with apocalypse, got worse with Allies, then Knights, and now it's taking over the whole game. And that is GW's policy of sales over substance. If everyone can use them, everyone can buy them. It's eroding the foundations of the game. Literally the only reason that 40k has survived so long is because of the rich background. It damn sure isn't balanced rules or sanely priced models.
Sure I totally agree that you don't have to use the new powers, but it is yet another example of fluffy players being handicapped while giving more options for power gamers to create absurd combinations that abuse the rules.
Under the old system, if you wanted to add in models from another army for fluff reasons, then you could house rule with your friends and play as you like, whereas the power abuses were restricted by the core rules. Now they've flipped it, where fairness is optional, and doing whatever the hell you feel like is standard and encouraged.
I think we are about to lose one of the last things that is still good about this game, finally tainted by greed, just like White Dwarf, prices, supplements, data sheets etc. This company barely represents the hobby I started playing 15 years ago.
I cannot exalt this enough. It says what I think, only with better wording.
Triton wrote: Again, you guys are looking at this from the perspective of old, outdated fluff.
In 7th edition 40K, not only can everybody except the Grey Knights summon daemons freely, they also apparently gain a ton of control over the daemon. Ultramarines fighting Plague Marines can summon a Great Unclean One, and that Great Unclean One will not simply slaughter the Ultramarines, it will actually go after the Plague Marines. This is a massive departure from the way things were before.
7th edition obviously makes significant changes to the lore.
Nurgle might think a few plague marines are worth it to corrupt a storied chapter like the ultramarines
KorPhaeron77 wrote: The argument that "They were tricked!" is paper thin. What so every single battle this Librarian keeps "accidentally" summoning daemons? A daemonic incursion is literally supposed to be the worst thing that can happen to a world. Millions died in the wake of the 1st war of armageddon just because a couple of people saw some daemons, let alone summoned them.
The whole point of the librarius and sanctioned psykers, is limiting their own strengths as to minimise the chance of chaos corruption. Over step that mark and you become a sorceror, at which point you would be considered Chaos.
No one just "one off" summons a daemon horde. Do it once grudgingly and next time it becomes a little easier and easier to do it. Yes it might explain the fall of Space Marines, so use that in your own background fluff, not in the game,
For me this represents a trend that started with apocalypse, got worse with Allies, then Knights, and now it's taking over the whole game. And that is GW's policy of sales over substance. If everyone can use them, everyone can buy them. It's eroding the foundations of the game. Literally the only reason that 40k has survived so long is because of the rich background. It damn sure isn't balanced rules or sanely priced models.
Sure I totally agree that you don't have to use the new powers, but it is yet another example of fluffy players being handicapped while giving more options for power gamers to create absurd combinations that abuse the rules.
Under the old system, if you wanted to add in models from another army for fluff reasons, then you could house rule with your friends and play as you like, whereas the power abuses were restricted by the core rules. Now they've flipped it, where fairness is optional, and doing whatever the hell you feel like is standard and encouraged.
I think we are about to lose one of the last things that is still good about this game, finally tainted by greed, just like White Dwarf, prices, supplements, data sheets etc. This company barely represents the hobby I started playing 15 years ago.
I agree on the naked money grab
HOWEVER
My previous statements about being tricked really WERE for the first time.
Certainly, additional summonings would indicate a slide to Chaos (a rather steep one at that). If a chapter does decide to go to Chaos, do they lose all their equipment right away? Do they suddenly forget their training?
Do you see it as a chapter that summons Daemons immediately has their Stormtalons and Stormravens turn into Helldrakes while their Dreads spontaneously turn into Hellbrutes? Do the anti-grav engines on their Land Speeders and grav guns just stop working once the first Daemon pops onto the field? What about the Drop Pods and Assault Cannons?
There's almost almost always some kind of transition period between loyalist Marines and CSMs as portrayed in their respective codices as their training is stripped away and mutations (and lack of supplies/ability to repair) changes their weapons and vehicles into the types available to CSMs.
So? It's possible. That is the point. Grey Knights can legally ally with daemons. This is not retconning fluff, this is purposefully completely breaking it.
Ashiraya wrote: I would like an explanation for why on earth CSM can use all psychic disciplines except telekinesis.
Is there any kind of reason or logic behind this or was it just another mandatory addition to ensure CSM stay SM-1?
Have any decision to allows any kind of non-Chaos god related psychic power to some SM and not other ever made any sense ever in the whole history of the game?
Both 7th and 6th edition psychic discipline allowance chart exists because of reasons. They are just the epitome of arbitrary.
Not to mention having a bunch of IOM psykers allied to them for summoning.
As "legal" as Tyranids alliances...... ( remember these are rules not laws..)
....so please tell me, were all these complaints from Tyranids-players of "no friends" just Illusions ?
Or, just for once, could we consider the fact units have to check if they "get along or do nothing this turn" aren't really a hint on alliances worth the name?
Basically a single top-level alliance, BB, and several levels of distrust.
You also hit your "allies" cause they are "enemies" and not "friendly units".
even purposefully, how do you think Chaos got started in the first place?
The universe started out as a completely equal existence, where everything was in perfect order, and nothing could change. Then the "big bang" happened, and every single piece of change and mite of disorder became reflected in the warp, and as the universe went on, these stacked together and grew ever greater, until sentient species came about. Sentience being a highly complicated, illogical and inherently disorganised/chaotic thing, caused the warp to have even greater disturbances.
Eventually, the sentient beings caused disturbances so large that the warp itself gained sentience, and then all semblance of order and normalcy degenerated into what we call Chaos.
Heroes add to chaos. Villains exist to make it exponentially worse.
thats my point... if good guys were "immune" to summoning daemons... WTF is the point? that just neuters the threat of chaos and makes it out to be weaker then it really is.
easysauce wrote: thats my point... if good guys were "immune" to summoning daemons... WTF is the point? that just neuters the threat of chaos and makes it out to be weaker then it really is.
Because A. that's not how Marines fall to chaos. "oops, I just summoned a bloodthirst, oh well."
B. It's so rare that it shouldn't be allowed on the tabletop, especially when its equal to the chaos factions ability to summon.
C. If their army is loyalist, then they'd be purged right there on the spot. Lose both models kinda thing.
easysauce wrote: thats my point... if good guys were "immune" to summoning daemons... WTF is the point? that just neuters the threat of chaos and makes it out to be weaker then it really is.
I wasn't arguing either side, I was answering the question
Can a space marine librarian summon a daemon. Yes. Do they? No. Quote a book that I can read where there was a loyal space marine librarian that summoned a daemon and was not executed or didn't succumb to chaos, and I'll take back my statement.
If you read the lore and follow the stories (at least that ones that adhere towards the general cannon universe) you see that Space Marines have different ideas on what is acceptable and can deviate slightly here and there regarding practices.
An example would be the Ultramarines. They adhere to the Codex with such conviction that to even deviate from it would be tantamount to heresy and would result in execution or a death quest.
Other chapters like the Exorcists summon daemons into themselves and exorcise them to gain a resistance to chaos. Which would be considered heresy by others. Such things are usually hush hush because to expose this would be to invite the inquisition or other chapters' animosity.
There is not a single loyalist chapter, however, that summons daemons to fight. Something that extreme would be heretical and would result not only in the execution of the psycher but also the censorship of the entire company (at best) or the entire chapter (at worst).
As such there's no cannon reason for a space marine to summon a daemon.
However, if you're saying because you CAN come up with a scenario where it may happen then I'm sure that some people can come up with any reason they want for anything. Here, I'll show you:
- Hive mind links up with the Necron and first ever necron-tyranids alliance occurs (Necron are battle brothers with Tyranids)
- Eldar sacrifice all their craftwords to the nids to give the other species a chance to win (Eldar are battle brothers with everyone)
- Emperor created the tau and on waking from the throne makes a permanent alliance (Imperium forces are battle brothers with Tau)
You can even do this with game rules to match non-fluffy game rules:
- Look out, Sir! with desperate allies - reason: Person of interest?
- Orks can do do blessing of the Omminisiah - Reason: WAAAAGGGGGH
- Tyranids must issue and accept all challenges - Reason: Tyranids are attacking the most dangerous threat
- Orks get FNP - Reason: Orks are the biggest
Now let's take this a step further
New rule: Units can now pick weapons from any codex. Space marines can fire pulse rifles. Orks can use guass weapons. Necron can use biomass weapons.
The problem that I have with this is that yes you can make an argument for anything and you can hide behind forging the narrative but the reality is that this has nothing to do with anything cannon. Games workshop doesn't really care about the balance.
I'd be fine if it was only chaos and chaos space marines that can summon and the rest get access to banishing spells but that's not what took place. On that note; why on earth are some psychic spells only accessible by some races and others don't have access to it? Example: divination with Dark angels only?
Just wanted to add in my two cents: Eldar. Do. Not. Summon. Daemons. The fact that they are giving farseers the power to summon daemons is idiotic. Eldar psychers take great pains to keep their powers under control as not to attract the attentions of Slaanesh. At the same time any daemon of the warp would love to make a meal of an Eldar soul. Giving them Maelific Daemonology flies in the face of all the craftworld Eldar lore. There are numerous examples of Eldar sacrificing themselves (and incidentally others, often Imperial forces) just to close a warp rift. Now all of a sudden they are going to go around opening them?
NuclearAutomaton wrote: Just wanted to add in my two cents: Eldar. Do. Not. Summon. Daemons. The fact that they are giving farseers the power to summon daemons is idiotic. Eldar psychers take great pains to keep their powers under control as not to attract the attentions of Slaanesh. At the same time any daemon of the warp would love to make a meal of an Eldar soul. Giving them Maelific Daemonology flies in the face of all the craftworld Eldar lore. There are numerous examples of Eldar sacrificing themselves (and incidentally others, often Imperial forces) just to close a warp rift. Now all of a sudden they are going to go around opening them?
No, but I see no reason why the Dark Eldar wouldn't torture/brainwash (and if there's anyone who can do that to an Eldar, it's another Eldar) a Craftworld Eldar into summoning one or more daemons as support/distractions. That's how it's going to go down with my Eldar/Dark Eldar force.
jhe90 wrote: Maybe by acidient, a miss hap, and the deamon can turn on anyone?
Is using powers, deamon follows and uses it to break into realspace as warp fluctuates for a split second?
I wish it was that way, but it isn´t. The Daemon does not turn on anyone, he meekly follow the psyker´s orders. And the rest of the army is ok, they all fight together against the other faction. Even if the army includes Priests, Commissars, Eldar, Sisters or Grey Knights.
pm713 wrote: Apart from the fact Dark Eldar hate Chaos more than anyone and have nothing to do with psychic powers as a result.
Eh, not quite. Check the book again. They don't so much hate Chaos as they are paranoid about Chaos invading Commorragh. But some pissant backwater planet full of sweaty mon-keighs? Who cares? It's not like they even live in the same dimension as us. Let's not forget that the Dark Eldar know exactly how much what they do feeds and strengthens Slaanesh. And they don't care. They've managed to get out of reality before the neighborhood went belly-up.
When it comes to the real world, the Dark Eldar do not give a damn. They are the 'some men' Alfred was telling Bruce about. And if summoning one daemon for every one of the hundred billion inhabitants of a hive world generates a little more chaos, pain, and death, and reinvigorates them for one more night, they'd do it in a heartbeat.
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jhe90 wrote: Maybe by acidient, a miss hap, and the deamon can turn on anyone?
Is using powers, deamon follows and uses it to break into realspace as warp fluctuates for a split second?
As a side note, I don't have the 7th edition book. Are you ever given permission NOT to treat summoned demons as coming from Codex: Daemons? By that I mean, do they still have to follow the appropriate ally relationships? (Because if so, the rules as have been explained to me would prohibit anyone with a relationship of Comes the Apocalypse from summoning demons, since they wouldn't be able to legally deploy the conjured unit.) There's probably something to get around this, but it occurred to me the other day as a possibility nevertheless.
pm713 wrote: Apart from the fact Dark Eldar hate Chaos more than anyone and have nothing to do with psychic powers as a result.
Eh, not quite. Check the book again. They don't so much hate Chaos as they are paranoid about Chaos invading Commorragh. But some pissant backwater planet full of sweaty mon-keighs? Who cares? It's not like they even live in the same dimension as us. Let's not forget that the Dark Eldar know exactly how much what they do feeds and strengthens Slaanesh. And they don't care. They've managed to get out of reality before the neighborhood went belly-up.
When it comes to the real world, the Dark Eldar do not give a damn. They are the 'some men' Alfred was telling Bruce about. And if summoning one daemon for every one of the hundred billion inhabitants of a hive world generates a little more chaos, pain, and death, and reinvigorates them for one more night, they'd do it in a heartbeat.
Touché.
I also remember some form of Heretic Cabal in a book called 'Crimson Tears'. They were trying to create a second Dark City, and allied with some Slaaneshy Lost and the Damned force.
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jhe90 wrote: Maybe by acidient, a miss hap, and the deamon can turn on anyone?
Is using powers, deamon follows and uses it to break into realspace as warp fluctuates for a split second?
As a side note, I don't have the 7th edition book. Are you ever given permission NOT to treat summoned demons as coming from Codex: Daemons? By that I mean, do they still have to follow the appropriate ally relationships? (Because if so, the rules as have been explained to me would prohibit anyone with a relationship of Comes the Apocalypse from summoning demons, since they wouldn't be able to legally deploy the conjured unit.) There's probably something to get around this, but it occurred to me the other day as a possibility nevertheless.
That makes quite a lot of sense...
The WD showed Coteaz surrounded by bloodletters to illustrate the point though, so I am not sure.
I have been reading through 7th and honestly, I think this whole issue about other armies having access to Malefic Discipline has been overblown. Even in the Psychic Phase section they state that you shouldn't just give those powers to non-Chaos armies just because and to have for good reason. It also goes on to state that if you want, make a house rule that non-Chaos can not take Malefic powers. The rule book has several asides that talk about house rules to make a game that is enjoyable and that you FLG can agree on.
To me they have two main modes of play in 7th: Ways to modify the rules to make balanced tournaments for people to play and story mode that make for interesting story driven campaigns which personally, I think is pretty awesome. Everywhere in the new rules, they encourage house rules to fit the reason for play such as a Tournament rule banning Malefic daemonolgy from anyone except for Chaos.
So what was the point of including Malefic for a lot of people? How about a story driven campaign that details the fall of an army. An example might be a Librarian out of desperation uses a Malefic power to win a battle and that opens the door so the next game, one of his powers has to be Malefic and if then the next one all of his powers must be Malefic to represent his fall to Chaos and then slowly introduce some CSM allies to represent the slow corruption of the Chapter. If the Librarian falls in battle and they loose the battle against an Imperial force than the Chapter is saved and brought to heel by the Imperium but if the Librarian ever successfully has Possession fire off and becomes a Greater Daemon then the Chapter fully falls and becomes a CSM army instead. To me that is an awesome campaign that tells an awesome story too, something to take a lot of pictures of and detail.
What I just described couldn't happen in other editions until now. This edition tries to satisfy all players. Tournament players and groups can adapt the rules for competitive play, Casual players can agree on rules and story players can make even more epic stories than before because we can now have forces falling to Chaos instead of them just going head to head which is really cool. For Eldar, the fall of a force of Eldar who realize Chaos is better so they leave the Craftworlds to become Chaos worshipping Corsairs.
Can't do it with GK because they have never fallen to Chaos but everyone else, you can tell some awesome stories with it and have GK be the policing force and such.
To be fair, I have been pushing forward the 'make your own rules' since forever. Specially since 6th. The rulebook has always had some 'fix it yourself' line, and if they are openly saying that a given rule is there to be fixed... well for me it helps me a lot, to fix that rule and many others.
The way I understand it, it is not a 'written in stone' rule. It is a rule that is supposed to be adjusted to the narrative through house-rules. I really like narrative games, and I can think about some campaign-scenarios that will benefit from having a, say, loyal Librarian suddenly summoning Daemons.
In a campaign, narrative-driven scenario, as an optional rule to be tweaked? Good.
In an average game, as if it were business as usual? Bad.
Of course, if you are into picking random games with strangers, you will meet the odd Daemon+Inquisition+GK player, but hey, he can go play with the unbound 9 riptides guy or the 400 unpainted gretchin unbound guy. A bad thing in 7th is that the player community is sort of broken in different groups with different interests. This is not new though.
Anyway, I am just containing myself until I read the rule... it still sounds pretty bad.
As I alluded to before - one of the issues is that each individual game of 40 can represent an important moment in the story line - so it may well be that moment when a given individual finally succumbs to the blandishments of Chaos in order to do X and Y.....
As others have said - the Dark Eldar mess about with Daemons much more than they “should” there are numerous examples in the Codex and the novels from individual encounters and bargains to the rulers of whole sub realms gathering Daemon armies.
In all seriousness though it makes sense to have whacko inquisitors and off the deep end librarians running around opening portals to hell to win minor skirmishes. It seems like a few chapters would be willing to take the risk...
In all seriousness though it makes sense to have whacko inquisitors and off the deep end librarians running around opening portals to hell to win minor skirmishes. It seems like a few chapters would be willing to take the risk...
If I cba with 7th, I'd have a heretical chapter of SM spewing daemons on all sides. But ima retreat to older/alternate rules until I stop sulking about the uselessness of my current models.
Envihon wrote: I have been reading through 7th and honestly, I think this whole issue about other armies having access to Malefic Discipline has been overblown. Even in the Psychic Phase section they state that you shouldn't just give those powers to non-Chaos armies just because and to have for good reason. It also goes on to state that if you want, make a house rule that non-Chaos can not take Malefic powers. The rule book has several asides that talk about house rules to make a game that is enjoyable and that you FLG can agree on.
To me they have two main modes of play in 7th: Ways to modify the rules to make balanced tournaments for people to play and story mode that make for interesting story driven campaigns which personally, I think is pretty awesome. Everywhere in the new rules, they encourage house rules to fit the reason for play such as a Tournament rule banning Malefic daemonolgy from anyone except for Chaos.
I can understand where you are coming from however i get the feeling the guys at GW are throwing darts at a board full of rules ideas. putting them in a book and then throwing in the sentence " if you dont like it around where you play and your friends dont like it either dont use it. we dont care" Seems with a littlle more thought and effort it could be closer to balanced (a game this large and complex will never be truely balanced ) Just how i feel about it.
I am holding my opinion until I read it carefully, the way you put it, doesn´t sound that bad.
Agreed. If you're looking at it like that, I guess it's OK. I guess if you play a tournament you'd hope that it was a bit more fair otherwise, I guess it comes down to 'narrative'. Going forward, I'll just destroy any 'loyalist' that brings forth daemons regardless of the reason why.
Envihon wrote: I have been reading through 7th and honestly, I think this whole issue about other armies having access to Malefic Discipline has been overblown. Even in the Psychic Phase section they state that you shouldn't just give those powers to non-Chaos armies just because and to have for good reason. It also goes on to state that if you want, make a house rule that non-Chaos can not take Malefic powers. The rule book has several asides that talk about house rules to make a game that is enjoyable and that you FLG can agree on.
To me they have two main modes of play in 7th: Ways to modify the rules to make balanced tournaments for people to play and story mode that make for interesting story driven campaigns which personally, I think is pretty awesome. Everywhere in the new rules, they encourage house rules to fit the reason for play such as a Tournament rule banning Malefic daemonolgy from anyone except for Chaos.
I can understand where you are coming from however i get the feeling the guys at GW are throwing darts at a board full of rules ideas. putting them in a book and then throwing in the sentence " if you dont like it around where you play and your friends dont like it either dont use it. we dont care" Seems with a littlle more thought and effort it could be closer to balanced (a game this large and complex will never be truely balanced ) Just how i feel about it.
I don't quite see it that way because if you look at the community, WH40k supports a variety of players all for different ways they like to play, all who argue about what kind of things would make this game better with us even hardly ever coming to a consensus. This whole thread is a good example of that with story players not even agreeing what rules follow the fluff and which break it. To me 7th is GW trying to take the step forward to create a game for all to enjoy. How do you balance a game that people want to play competitive tournaments with but at the same time make a game for people really gravitate to the lore and background who would want to re-create epic battles or make their own? The answer is you almost have to make two different rule sets and ways to create balanced modifiers for each mode of play. That is what 7th has attempted to do and I think they did it pretty well. It isn't perfect by any means, especially with the oversight of what happens with GK and psychic powers which means we are in some desperate need of a FAQ for several armies but for the most part, they did well and I appreciate the effort.
It isn't they just giving up and telling us to make our own rules or throwing darts at rules on a board. I see the method of the madness and they provide a structured way to make house rules, not just pick and choose at will for the rules you like vs. the ones you think are stupid. It's more of "From a competitive stand point, these rules seem OP or out of place but for a story campaign they are great to forge the narrative". Why do you think they have been thrusting that phrase that everyone makes fun of for? "Forge the Narrative" They are trying to remind people that this isn't just a game you can play to win but a game to be enjoyed whether you win or loose.
Envihon wrote: Why do you think they have been thrusting that phrase that everyone makes fun of for? "Forge the Narrative" They are trying to remind people that this isn't just a game you can play to win but a game to be enjoyed whether you win or loose.
The problem with that assertion is that there is a very vocal "competitive" strain of 40k player. GW have done their part in encouraging this with their own tournaments, which from the start have encouraged WAAC. I can understand the frustration of a competitive player in an expensive hobby when the playing field can change so dramatically so quickly. "Balance" is a complicated issue; RNG games are incredibly difficult to "balance" sufficiently and although you could argue that after a period of months a metagame develops that imposes balance on a system, if that metagame is shaken up (by the introduction of a new Codex, core rules set etc) "balance" goes out the window).
Glaringly odd design decisions aside (looking at you, Daemonology), the different kinds of players that exist are always going to rant and rave about what they don't understand. Gameplay designed for another kind of player that is for some reason vastly at odds with what they expect leads to frustration and the need to vent. It;s really easy to give into that impulse on a forum, especially in a forum that has developed a broad consensus of opinion and is home to a lot of the same type of gamer. Competitive players don't want "forge the narrative", they want chess (of sorts) with tanks, lasers and aliens.
Unfortunately, GW are either making or trying to make 40k for a selection of player types, not just the competitive player. They do throw the competitive player a bone now and then though (a Tyranid example would be the introduction of the Hive Crone, to counter the Tyranid weakness to fliers), so they certainly recognize that competitive play exists.
If you've got a spare five minutes, I would recommend giving http://www.wizards.com/magic/magazine/article.aspx?x=mtgcom/daily/mr11b" target="_new" rel="nofollow">this old MTG article by Mark Rosewater a quick read. It's nicely written, fairly to-the-point and demonstrates how it is more than possible for other types of players to exist in larger numbers than you might think. In that example, Spike will think that the Johnny cards are worthless) and may even complain that the time taken to make them should have been spent on more Spike cards). "Forge the Narrative" is a Johnny mechanic, and is worthless to Spike. Spike might even make fun of how awful it is, because by his reckoning that's exactly what it is; awful. Forging a Narrative doesn't help you win.
(Disclaimer: Yes yes, MTG is very different to 40k, and gamers don't fit snugly into those three profiles. It's just food for thought.)
Only two of those link actually mention daemon : the Kabal of the Talon Cyriix, and the Archangel of Pain. The Mandrakes have one among many rumors that speaks about them having some demonic part.
Envihon wrote: Why do you think they have been thrusting that phrase that everyone makes fun of for? "Forge the Narrative" They are trying to remind people that this isn't just a game you can play to win but a game to be enjoyed whether you win or loose.
The problem with that assertion is that there is a very vocal "competitive" strain of 40k player. GW have done their part in encouraging this with their own tournaments, which from the start have encouraged WAAC. I can understand the frustration of a competitive player in an expensive hobby when the playing field can change so dramatically so quickly. "Balance" is a complicated issue; RNG games are incredibly difficult to "balance" sufficiently and although you could argue that after a period of months a metagame develops that imposes balance on a system, if that metagame is shaken up (by the introduction of a new Codex, core rules set etc) "balance" goes out the window).
Glaringly odd design decisions aside (looking at you, Daemonology), the different kinds of players that exist are always going to rant and rave about what they don't understand. Gameplay designed for another kind of player that is for some reason vastly at odds with what they expect leads to frustration and the need to vent. It;s really easy to give into that impulse on a forum, especially in a forum that has developed a broad consensus of opinion and is home to a lot of the same type of gamer. Competitive players don't want "forge the narrative", they want chess (of sorts) with tanks, lasers and aliens.
Unfortunately, GW are either making or trying to make 40k for a selection of player types, not just the competitive player. They do throw the competitive player a bone now and then though (a Tyranid example would be the introduction of the Hive Crone, to counter the Tyranid weakness to fliers), so they certainly recognize that competitive play exists.
If you've got a spare five minutes, I would recommend giving http://www.wizards.com/magic/magazine/article.aspx?x=mtgcom/daily/mr11b" target="_new" rel="nofollow">this old MTG article by Mark Rosewater a quick read. It's nicely written, fairly to-the-point and demonstrates how it is more than possible for other types of players to exist in larger numbers than you might think. In that example, Spike will think that the Johnny cards are worthless) and may even complain that the time taken to make them should have been spent on more Spike cards). "Forge the Narrative" is a Johnny mechanic, and is worthless to Spike. Spike might even make fun of how awful it is, because by his reckoning that's exactly what it is; awful. Forging a Narrative doesn't help you win.
(Disclaimer: Yes yes, MTG is very different to 40k, and gamers don't fit snugly into those three profiles. It's just food for thought.)
I am familiar with the Spike, Johnny and Timmy archetypes and I do understand that but I am still not being as pessimistic on what GW did here as some people. I still think a competitive game still exists because too many local tweaking would have to go on for GW to satisfy the regional differences that happen in all the countries that 40k is sold under. To give an example where regional differences matter, I am going to bring in something I wish I didn't have to but it is the first example I came up with and that is the balancing issues with Starcraft 2. When it came out, Blizzard had to balance the game in two different ways based on regional locality. On the American servers, Terrans were exploited and used to be the dominating army people would play to win but on the Asian servers, the Zerg took this place and Blizzard had to tweak their game twice to fit the regional differences and which exploits each did.
This happens in 40k but imo, on a bigger scale given the fact that 40k isn't an online game, it is a tabletop and although we all connect here on the internet and discuss things, each region plays differently despite it. This was fully illustrated to me when I got orders to my new unit that moved from one region to another so one of the first things I did was seek out a new FLGS. My first impression was that this group plays this game in a far different way the my other one and I liked it because it almost felt like playing the game fresh because I had to adapt to a new group. I don't know how much this affects national tournaments but regardless of the fact, how do you balance with taking in these issues? This isn't an online game where each region is isolated by a server and you can make local changes, GW can't go around making a different rulebook for everyone so what do they do? They make built in modifiers within the rules so that FLGS can take what they know about their regional player base and help modify the rules to balance that regional set. This isn't making up rules as some people think it is, it is making it so that we can work at our own server level.
I know, people have argued constantly that the rulebook should just be set down and be balanced for everyone but that isn't possible for with different regional play styles and here is the other problem, this isn't a video game that does all the calculation for us and then send the data into the company to be analyzed, we have to do it ourselves because we are the computers when we throw the dice and we calculate the mechanics manually which means we must also manually balance the game. It is also the reason for all the arguments people have about what would balance the game, the regional play styles. So why are we faulting GW when they set the modifiers in there themselves? And what is wrong with tournaments going in and making the restrictions they already do except now GW supports it? Imagine if GW changed the game every time some one who can shout loudly over the internet says something is wrong? We would be worse off than we are.
Also, I went over how GW isn't breaking the fluff with some of this but providing ways to tell better narrative campaigns.
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u'z iz sayin dat others dan da spikey ladz be summinz dem der warp boyz! We'z need to gets to Crumpin Edz!'
