Snap shots... like, wtf, can you imagine trying to snapshot a WraithKnight to kill it.
Even in combat you'd stand no chance... how does one kill the thing.. The only way I see to deal with it is to tie it up in combat forever.

It's not just Wraith Knights though, Belakor is also totally OP.
Spawn with Bike Sorcerers will now always pretty much win their challenges.
Invisible Land Raiders?

Screw the new demonlogy powers... Invisibility is king.

luckily not many lists will have multiple psykers that know invisibility.

Save your DTW dice for that and your gold.

Yes, Invisibility is ridiculously good, and is only 1 WC. However, as the previous poster said, you can always DTW and shut it down. After you do that a few times, your opponent may start throwing more dice to make it go off, and hopefully you get some perils going.

 Homeskillet wrote:
Yes, Invisibility is ridiculously good, and is only 1 WC. However, as the previous poster said, you can always DTW and shut it down. After you do that a few times, your opponent may start throwing more dice to make it go off, and hopefully you get some perils going.

Hope generally isn't a good tactic/way to deal with it

If you cant hurt it ignore it and then focus on getting rid of the source of invis/other things.

 Homeskillet wrote:
Yes, Invisibility is ridiculously good, and is only 1 WC. However, as the previous poster said, you can always DTW and shut it down. After you do that a few times, your opponent may start throwing more dice to make it go off, and hopefully you get some perils going.

Just a correction, Invisibility is 2 WC.

correct its not wc 1.

I'll be using belkalor, with my demons.

I'll set aside x number of wc dice that's only for invisibility. then I'm going to attempt to bleed you dry with summonings, hopefully lots of extra heralds.

 Homeskillet wrote:
you can always DTW and shut it down.

DTW is not automatic. You statistically need to use 6 warp charges to deny the opponent's blessing, and that is if they only get 1 warp charge off to cast it. More if they happen to roll more than one 4+. Definitely not an option for even close to the majority of armies out there.

kill the source and not the target?

 rryannn wrote:
kill the source and not the target?

That's your best bet.

Imagine a Spawn Squad with 3 Sorcerers, 9 rolls on Telepathy, almost the same amount of rolls a Screamstar throws at divination.
Sorcerers have Melta Bombs and Force axes.
The unit is pretty much un-killable.
It can't be hit with blasts to snipe with barrage. Precision shots are still LOS on a 2+ and not much has Precision now.

My conscripts care not for your 6s to hit.

Oddly enough neither do orks very much.

 rryannn wrote:
kill the source and not the target?

Most of the time the source will be the target.

My bad, missed the WC2. However, I definitely did not mean to infer that you "automatically" get to deny it with DTW. However, it certainly is a viable tactic to save your warp charges for denying that power. Also as others mentioned, kill the caster if he's not casting on himself. Don't get me wrong, Invisibility is crazy good now, it's just not unbeatable.

How many of the sources as the target have large damage outputs though?

Seer council is not going to really do much damage in CC. Belakor can do some hurting but he has to be on the ground before he can.

I guess the spawnstar could. Hurray go kill one unit a turn. Let me spawn more gaunts or throw conscript unit number two your way, no more prescision shots so my commissar is just gonna hide in the back.

Wolf tooth necklace, twin linked madness, and master crafted, , preferred enemy etc...anything that allows re rolls esp the massive re rolls or auto hit stuff.

I'm honestly surprised this thread isn't bigger. When I first read the powers list this one is the one that really jumped out at me. Granted, I skipped malefic because I don't play daemons.

This power is nuts! Other than the tactics mentioned above, DTW, kill the other psyker, the only other tactic is torrent of fire, which anyone without reliable AA fortunately probably has. The downside of course is when this gets dropped on some ridiculous 2++ deathstar.

Anything that auto hits works

well, considering its harder to cast, you only have a 25% chacne to cast with 2 wc's, spend 4 for ~80% to suceed...

but as others have mentioned, kill the source if not the target, or save up WCs to dispell. Otherwise, massed weight of fire or attacks, or just ignore it and kill somethign killable.

tarpits are your friend too

Tau

Shingen wrote:
Anything that auto hits works

Such as? Can't snap fire templates.

I wouldn't mind it so much except they are now immune to blast? I'm willing to suspend all kinds of belief for the craziness that is 40k, but area of effect weapons are a time honored way to take out invisible targets.
7th hasn't changed how snap firing and blast weapons work, have they?

I think change Invis to BS/WS 1 is enough IMO

Razerous wrote:
Tau

Tau can no longer improve snapshots with markers.

 koooaei wrote:

Razerous wrote:
Tau

Tau can no longer improve snapshots with markers.

Yes they can, its specifically stated in the Markerlight rules which overrides the general rule in the rulebook.

Just thought it was worth noting that Invis also makes Deathstars immune to 99% of D weapons, as almost all of them are blasts.

Powerguy wrote:

 koooaei wrote:

Razerous wrote:
Tau

Tau can no longer improve snapshots with markers.

Yes they can, its specifically stated in the Markerlight rules which overrides the general rule in the rulebook.

Worth noting, however, that their markerlights will need to snap shot to hit you, so there's that.

Yes /thread

The best counter I can see is imperial knights. Stomp cares not you rolls to hit, and if you roll a six, they vanish.

Heres a good one, I have a tournament in August and there will be 3-5 seerstar/serpent/revenant lists... If a revenant becomes invisible for a turn, how do you kill it?... D-weapons are mainly blast at range, it was hard enough to kill it with its 3+ save...

Ignore it? D weapons aren't quite as good dont ignore cover 5/6 of the time.

Necron doom scythes auto hit... at st10 ap1.
Its absolutely ridiculous that flamers can't hit invisible things. Have GW ever watched a sci-fi movie with invisible creatures? That is always how they are dealt with!!!

major_payne wrote:
Heres a good one, I have a tournament in August and there will be 3-5 seerstar/serpent/revenant lists... If a revenant becomes invisible for a turn, how do you kill it?... D-weapons are mainly blast at range, it was hard enough to kill it with its 3+ save...

It is easier to kill the thing giving it invisibility first.

 Trickstick wrote:

major_payne wrote:
Heres a good one, I have a tournament in August and there will be 3-5 seerstar/serpent/revenant lists... If a revenant becomes invisible for a turn, how do you kill it?... D-weapons are mainly blast at range, it was hard enough to kill it with its 3+ save...

It is easier to kill the thing giving it invisibility first.

What if the thing giving it invisibility is invisible. It's not like it is hard to come up with a unit like that is scary when invisibility is cast on itself...

Any advice requiring you to roll dice to "dispel" it is fairly silly.. Really? You need 12 dice to maybe get 2 6s! Thats only if they roll just 2 4+s.

DTW is not the answer to countering blessings.. You just gotta suck it up as you did in 6th.

Super Newb wrote:

 Trickstick wrote:

major_payne wrote:
Heres a good one, I have a tournament in August and there will be 3-5 seerstar/serpent/revenant lists... If a revenant becomes invisible for a turn, how do you kill it?... D-weapons are mainly blast at range, it was hard enough to kill it with its 3+ save...

It is easier to kill the thing giving it invisibility first.

What if the thing giving it invisibility is invisible. It's not like it is hard to come up with a unit like that is scary when invisibility is cast on itself...

Exactly. This is the only problem with invisibility. Think of a SM librarian in 10 man th&ss terminator unit... or Chaos Sorcerer in 30 strong Cultist unit (just to give a proper example, who in the name of the emperor does this kind of heresy?!)

Problem is that players hide their caster behind the unit where power is cast to.

Invisibility is not something that we cant cross, but it is broken...
It has only few counters, like sniping the caster... that ought work. Or tesla... or sniping and tesla... but in any case, options are very limited.

Sniping would be mighty hard if invisibility is up!

Honestly, you have to think of this in terms of the fluff.

Invisibility does what exactly? Make your unit INVISIBLE. They modified it so that you can only snap shot at it and hit them on a 6 because people still see the unit on the table, and snap shots disallow blast markers so you can't bombard them with metagame knowledge.

It's just like if they gave invisibility to a unit in an RTS. You wouldn't be able to see the unit at all so you wouldn't be targeting them at all. That's the point of Invisibility, a shield that says "don't attack this unit because you really shouldn't even be able to".

Granted, invisible scary things are scary and invisible swarms are tanky. If anything, invisibility should wear off when they attack like most RPGs already do.

Kyutaru wrote:
Honestly, you have to think of this in terms of the fluff.

No, it needs to be thought of in terms of gameplay.

Fluff only has bearing to the point of the abstraction necessary to create a workable rule that represents it on a fundamental basis.

Game balance should always trump 'realism', or strict adherence to the fluff.

I'm still having a hard time wrapping my head around the current iteration of the game, where things like 2++ rerollable saves, only being hit on 6s, and superheavies are accepted and normal aspects of gameplay.

Maybe I'm nostalgic, but I don't think ruling out 83% of shots, before saves, is beneficial to the game in any way.

 Blacksails wrote:

No, it needs to be thought of in terms of gameplay.

Remember who makes this game? Games Workshop. Forge a Narrative. Fluff over Balance. Non-competitive. Etc etc etc.

Occasionally they fix things to be more fair, but these guys could care less about whether the game is balanced or not. If they did, they'd codify their ruleset using clear, precise, and uniform terminology instead of having nearly every bloody thing in the book able to be questioned by rules lawyers. CCGs care about balance and make their rules as waterproof as possible. If you want a balanced Warhammer 40k, you're going to have to write it yourself.

Remember too that you're not ruling out 83% of shots. The unit is supposed to be invisible. You shouldn't be able to fire at it at all. But THAT would be broken and complained about to high holy hell.

Kyutaru wrote:

Remember who makes this game? Games Workshop. Forge a Narrative. Fluff over Balance. Non-competitive. Etc etc etc.

Only the first bit is a reasonable excuse; the rest, 'forging a narrative' and other nonsense is precisely that, nonsense and doesn't excuse poor game design.

Occasionally they fix things to be more fair, but these guys could care less about whether the game is balanced or not. If they did, they'd codify their ruleset using clear, precise, and uniform terminology instead of having nearly every bloody thing in the book able to be questioned by rules lawyers. CCGs care about balance and make their rules as waterproof as possible. If you want a balanced Warhammer 40k, you're going to have to write it yourself.

I'm well aware of GW's poor balance and overall game design. My point was that fluff shouldn't excuse poor game design, as you explained earlier. Do also note that I said 'shouldn't', as I know full well GW will continue with their balance issues.

Remember too that you're not ruling out 83% of shots. The unit is supposed to be invisible. You shouldn't be able to fire at it at all. But THAT would be broken and complained about to high holy hell.

Being able to shoot at it on 6s is hardly that much of an improvement over not being to (theoretically/fluff-wise) not shoot it all. Point is, I wouldn't find it enjoyable to face an already strong/durable unit that had an additional layer of protection that ignored outright 5/6 shots, and all blasts.

I'm sure I'm not the only one in that camp.

As for fluff justifications, if a piece of fluff were to be incorporated perfectly in the game so as to break it, maybe it didn't belong in the game in the first place.

ummm.... its no worse then snap firing at flyers...at least you can actually still hit the invis unit in CC unlike zoomers.... its a WC 2 power, hard to cast, easy to perils, you can ignore/tarpit the unit... and it gives no other bonuses besides the "snap shots/CC hits"

you also must get lucky to begin with to get the power in the first place...

that being said, yes, its powerful, but not brokenly so, you take very real risks to cast it, and you cannot rely on getting it, so any strategy that does rely on it is going to fail if they miss that roll when generating.

Granted, I also dislike flyers in the game.

They just feel silly, but I've never liked the mechanics for them, so I guess I'm at least consistent.

It seems the biggest decision when making a list these days is whether to summon more stuff with it or make it invisible.

Invis really isnt much worse than 2++ reroll, or 2+/2+ cover rerollable.

plenty of armies can get TL'd. Belakor is great, but most of the units he can and would invis are also susceptible to tarpitting due to the lack of HnR in the codex.

It is definitely "too good" but i'd be against removing it without considering the removal of other "broken" powers.

It isn't easy to fish for invis and getting powers off is much harder than before.

All we can hope is that 7th edition DE come quickly and HnR is removed from all their characters as to de-buff the main abusers of powers like invis.

 LValx wrote:
Invis really isnt much worse than 2++ reroll, or 2+/2+ cover rerollable.

This isn't saying much though.

Both of those things are pretty broken and don't belong in the first place.

major_payne wrote:
Heres a good one, I have a tournament in August and there will be 3-5 seerstar/serpent/revenant lists... If a revenant becomes invisible for a turn, how do you kill it?... D-weapons are mainly blast at range, it was hard enough to kill it with its 3+ save...

Throw your rulebook at the users.

That'll teach 'em.

if they had made snap shots only -2 to BS... that would have fixed this,and sooooo many other things.

but noooooo, you orks have the same chance to hit snap shots as the best shot assassin in the galaxy...

 LValx wrote:


plenty of armies can get TL'd. Belakor is great, but most of the units he can and would invis are also susceptible to tarpitting due to the lack of HnR in the codex.

The units you would cast invisibility on with chaos daemons all have ways to kill everything. Seekers have rending, Plague drones have poison, both can bring AP2 and both can have obscene amounts of attacks. A dreadnought could tie up the seekers, if the daemon player was bad enough to let them get caught. Not much can easily tarpit plague drones. Not a unit large enough to warrant casting invisibility on. Honestly I would probably just cast invisibility on Be'lakor himeslf, or some other MC, like a black mace DP and have them hop around the table.

Change it back to give affected units Stealth or Shrouded.

/fixed

 Sigvatr wrote:
Change it back to give affected units Stealth or Shrouded.

/fixed

It was stealthed and shrouded.

 Blacksails wrote:

 LValx wrote:
Invis really isnt much worse than 2++ reroll, or 2+/2+ cover rerollable.

This isn't saying much though.

Both of those things are pretty broken and don't belong in the first place.

There is a slippery slope I wouldn't want to go down by starting to FAQ codex entries. There are a ton of mechanics within codices or allied forces that can be abused. Invisibility is one of many. I don't believe enough time has gone by for people to really find ways to mitigate it's effects, though I think there are a number of ways out there (lots of armies have access to mass twin linking). Daemon's are also the only army that are guaranteed Invis (Belakor), which costs them around a 5th of their list at 1850. Add in Fateweaver, a few heralds to buff your WCs and you are sitting at 50% of the army at 1850. To reliably get Invisibility and to reliably cast it you need to invest a lot of points into HQs which ends up bloating your list. Play some games with Psykers and you'll see that it is much, much more difficult to cast mass powers. This leaves you with less buffed units and less reliable super units. I think another mitigating factor is that MSU is going to make a comeback now that transports score, vehicles are more durable and they removed the reserve restrictions. It is easier than ever to outmaneuver/evade deathstars, Marines, for example, can use White Scars/Ravenguard/UM w/ Tigurius to either manipulate reserves, use superior mobility through scouts/outflank and by abusing cheap transports and combat squads. The ability for everything to score has really changed the dynamic and has made it more difficult, in my opinion, to rely on deathstar units.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 gwarsh41 wrote:

 LValx wrote:


plenty of armies can get TL'd. Belakor is great, but most of the units he can and would invis are also susceptible to tarpitting due to the lack of HnR in the codex.

The units you would cast invisibility on with chaos daemons all have ways to kill everything. Seekers have rending, Plague drones have poison, both can bring AP2 and both can have obscene amounts of attacks. A dreadnought could tie up the seekers, if the daemon player was bad enough to let them get caught. Not much can easily tarpit plague drones. Not a unit large enough to warrant casting invisibility on. Honestly I would probably just cast invisibility on Be'lakor himeslf, or some other MC, like a black mace DP and have them hop around the table.

Blobs of troops that are fearless/ATSKNF/Wraithknights/Walkers are some of the units that can reliably tarpit many of the fast daemon threats.

On another note, it'll be funny to watch invisible units battle each other....

 easysauce wrote:
if they had made snap shots only -2 to BS... that would have fixed this,and sooooo many other things.

but noooooo, you orks have the same chance to hit snap shots as the best shot assassin in the galaxy...

This -2BS would fix the problem only for armies with BS4+....the rest would be screwed...

 easysauce wrote:
ummm.... its no worse then snap firing at flyers...

The difference is that a flyer is typically a 100-200 point model that dies fairly quickly once you hit it. An invisible death star, on the other hand, is a 500-1000 point unit that laughs off things like lucky autocannon hits.

 Peregrine wrote:

 easysauce wrote:
ummm.... its no worse then snap firing at flyers...

The difference is that a flyer is typically a 100-200 point model that dies fairly quickly once you hit it. An invisible death star, on the other hand, is a 500-1000 point unit that laughs off things like lucky autocannon hits.

and flyers are guaranteed, while invis is randomly generated.


your point?

random powers are random... have fun planning lists around them, spending 500+ pts for enough pyskers to get a good CHANCE at rolling invis, and then spending 500+ pts on the death star...

compared to 1000 pts of killyness on the other side can still choose to, oh i dont know, NOT shoot the unit thats super hard to kill....

also, tarpitting is a thing, a "strategy" if you will.

it has uses, this being one of them.

seems fitting that an easy, widely available counter to "expensive unkillable death star " is "numerous cheap models"

 Peregrine wrote:

 easysauce wrote:
ummm.... its no worse then snap firing at flyers...

The difference is that a flyer is typically a 100-200 point model that dies fairly quickly once you hit it. An invisible death star, on the other hand, is a 500-1000 point unit that laughs off things like lucky autocannon hits.

And to add to that, flyers do have hard counters, mainly AA guns.

You know what's fun?

Watching units get shrieked and stabbed off the table by an invisible, grimoire'd Be'Lakor who can't be hurt and kills anything he gets within the large threat range a jump monstrous creature can access.

Awesome.

What happens if a blast weapon scatters onto a unit that has invisibility?

invis has a hard counter: its called tarpitting.

 easysauce wrote:
invis has a hard counter: its called tarpitting.

Psychic Shriek loves blobs of low leadership units.

I think nova powers might help. It says they automatically target and hit everything in range including fliers and flying MCs. So tarpit and have another unit nova'ing them?

Otherwise use deathstar tactics on the deathstar tarpits, sacrificial blocking units, ignore and kill everything else.

Question, Karamazov and his orbital strike. You're not targeting the invis unit with it, you're targeting your own unit that happens to be in CC with them..

Kyutaru wrote:

Remember too that you're not ruling out 83% of shots. The unit is supposed to be invisible. You shouldn't be able to fire at it at all. But THAT would be broken and complained about to high holy hell.

Then it should cost more warp charges. Waaay more.

It isn't easy to fish for invis and getting powers off is much harder than before.

If the balancing aspect of a power is "you won't get it much" its essentially saying "just be prepared to forfeit those games when your opponent gets it". IE, its gak game balance and frankly hoping they don't get it isn't good enough as a counter.

While Invisibility isn't a guarantee, it's certainly not hard to make a list that has a very good chance of getting it, and isn't too crippled by the lack of it.

For instance -- two Farseers, the traditional psyker component of the Jetseer Council, have the same chances of getting Invisibility as they do Fortune. The chances of getting at least one Invisibility if you roll all on Telepathy are, if I'm doing the math correctly, 1-(5/6*4/6*3/6)^2 == ~93%. Note that that's actually better than the previous edition, because if you make the decision to go all in on a discipline, you get the primaris for free, meaning you have only 6 powers to roll on instead of 7. Tigurius also has the same chance I think, given that rerolls to choosing powers is the same as having two psykers (again if my math is correct).

I can see Eldar Deathstars completely forgoing Runes of Fate to roll entirely on Telepathy. You miss Fortune, but Invisibility gives you good defenses as well (worse against regular shots, but better against barrage sniping), and you didn't need Guide on either Beastpack or Jetseer Council. Probably the way they'll go is to roll on Telepathy until they hit Invisibility, and then either keep going to get Psychic Shriek for free, or then shift to Divination to still get Prescience.

And remember, this is without adding any additional psykers in to further buff your chances. You could also run an Iyanden Shadow Council of 3-5 Spiritseers, each of which gets two rolls on Telepathy + Primaris if you Focus. Daemons can just guarantee it with Be'Lakor, or bringing a few Heavy Support Daemon Princes to try nornally.


tl;dr Invisibility is easy enough to get that you can indeed plan an army around abusing it.

 Dakkamite wrote:

Kyutaru wrote:

Remember too that you're not ruling out 83% of shots. The unit is supposed to be invisible. You shouldn't be able to fire at it at all. But THAT would be broken and complained about to high holy hell.

Then it should cost more warp charges. Waaay more.

It isn't easy to fish for invis and getting powers off is much harder than before.

If the balancing aspect of a power is "you won't get it much" its essentially saying "just be prepared to forfeit those games when your opponent gets it". IE, its gak game balance and frankly hoping they don't get it isn't good enough as a counter.

Plus, Tigurius has a pretty good chance of getting it (almost certain with three rolls and his reroll ability) and Be'lakor gets it right off the bat, no BS needed.

Tigurius is ultimately, little more than a space marine with a fairly unimpressive statline, and if he goes for Telepathy he's not going for Biomancy to make himself into a combat monster.

Be'Lakor on the other hand is most decidedly not just a psyker.

Two Farseers can also be pretty sure of getting invisibility if they really want it.

Also, in GK all Grand Masters, Brother-Captains, Librarians, Draigo, Coteaz and even the lowly and easily spammable Psyker have access to rolling on Telepathy. Nobody wants to put up with invisible Draigo-wing shenanigans. This power is beyond broken.

Is invisability broken...?

 PrinceRaven wrote:
Yes /thread

I second...

Better nerf fortune and 2+ combo as well as grimoire/cursed earth. Where does it end?

Deathstars were beatable in 6th and moreso in 7th due to objective secured.

 LValx wrote:
Better nerf fortune and 2+ combo as well as grimoire/cursed earth. Where does it end?

Deathstars were beatable in 6th and moreso in 7th due to objective secured.

Those things all need a nerf too.

Reliable 2++ invulnerable saves you can have at all times should not exist without a counter to said saves existing.

If you get your screamer star, I should get Warscythes and Grey Knights who flat out ignore your invulnerable saves like the old old days.

It will not be hard for Eldar to cast at all... Our next tournament will be psychic hell, one option I had was Nids with 4 FHT, 12 Zoans, and the rest troops and Flaming Tyrranofexs (all within no unbound army)... People worry about the power of daemons, I have D6+32 warp charge first turn... Try casting your magic elsewhere!... Poor nids don't get invisible though so once again stooged...

major_payne wrote:

It will not be hard for Eldar to cast at all... Our next tournament will be psychic hell, one option I had was Nids with 4 FHT, 12 Zoans, and the rest troops and Flaming Tyrranofexs (all within no unbound army)... People worry about the power of daemons, I have D6+32 warp charge first turn... Try casting your magic elsewhere!... Poor nids don't get invisible though so once again stooged...

So far all the tournament organisers have been talking about limiting people to 2 detachments, in which case that list would only have 20+d6 warp charges, which sounds like a lot until you realise it takes 12 dice on average to deny a warp charge 2 power and both Grey Knights and Daemons can easily get more in a single detachment.

 Kain wrote:

 LValx wrote:
Better nerf fortune and 2+ combo as well as grimoire/cursed earth. Where does it end?

Deathstars were beatable in 6th and moreso in 7th due to objective secured.

Those things all need a nerf too.

Reliable 2++ invulnerable saves you can have at all times should not exist without a counter to said saves existing.

If you get your screamer star, I should get Warscythes and Grey Knights who flat out ignore your invulnerable saves like the old old days.

All have counters. Give it time, changes to scoring will possibly have a large impact on deathstars.

 LValx wrote:

 Kain wrote:

 LValx wrote:
Better nerf fortune and 2+ combo as well as grimoire/cursed earth. Where does it end?

Deathstars were beatable in 6th and moreso in 7th due to objective secured.

Those things all need a nerf too.

Reliable 2++ invulnerable saves you can have at all times should not exist without a counter to said saves existing.

If you get your screamer star, I should get Warscythes and Grey Knights who flat out ignore your invulnerable saves like the old old days.

All have counters. Give it time, changes to scoring will possibly have a large impact on deathstars.

I don't trust the paint chip eaters at GW to have enough intelligence to fix death stars after two editions of supposed fixes or things that would end Death Stars as a tactic forever being thumped around by the playerbase and never panning out.

Also apparently ghost helms dont negate the other effects of perils, just the wound. Can someone confirm that(I dont have a codex).

 LValx wrote:
Where does it end?

A balanced game that doesn't depend on gimmicks?

Invisibility death stars need speed more than additional layers of durability.

Belekor giving invis to seekers/hounds/fiends, jet seer council, beastpacks with farseers, and spawn with csm sorcerers are the best combos. They are too fast to avoid or ignore.

Paladins and hammernaters are already very durable, but they are also expensive and slow.

Grav centurians can get hit with a tarpit.

I'm not sure how to counter a well played fast moving deathstar with invis. Maybe tarpit some of them with an av13 walker, but walkers are slow and the good death stars are fast.

Meh, not too worried about it. It takes so many dice to cast powers reliably now that they'll either be only casting a couple powers a turn or have high chances of the power failing. Additionally perils everywhere if they do the former. Its pretty dramatic to say invis ignores 5/6ths of shots. At BS3 or 4 you're missing half or a third of those shots anyway. I'm not saying its not strong, about a third or a quarter of shots that would normally hit would still hit. But its WC2; it needs like 5 or 6 dice to be reliable thats two psykers worth of dice to get off one power with a very high chance of perils. It's way less broken than a reroll on a 2+ which actually does cut incoming damage to a sixth. Additionally why bother putting invis on a unit with a reroll 2+ anyway? its already impractical to attack.

belakor is a data slate...

I have yet to see a compettitive tourney that allows data slates

if hitting on 6's is the be all end all, then all flyers are op, over watch is op, and so on... its a powerful spell, we get it... its very far from over the top, and numerous people have mentioned the hard counters to it.

if you roll it, and if you get it off, there are always other things to shoot at... I wasnt wasting pts shooting your death star BEFORE you put invis on it... why would I shoot at it now that i waste even more shots?

tarpit is a thing, it works.

You could Psychic Shriek any Invis character/unit to death with Ahriman in one turn, I reckon.

Ahriman is a beast, 3 shrieks a turn is brutal.

 Arbiter wrote:
Ahriman is a beast, 3 shrieks a turn is brutal.

Does he have something to get around the rule that a unit can't cast the same power more than once per psychic phase? I'm legitimately asking, not trolling - I've never read his codex entry.

 rabidguineapig wrote:

 Arbiter wrote:
Ahriman is a beast, 3 shrieks a turn is brutal.

Does he have something to get around the rule that a unit can't cast the same power more than once per psychic phase? I'm legitimately asking, not trolling - I've never read his codex entry.

New FAQ says that his wargear "The Black Staff of Ahriman", allows him to manifest the same witchfire power up to 3 times per phase.

This is true ^^, which makes him almost silly if his points were not so high. If only he could take a disk of tzeentch.

 BrotherOfBone wrote:
You could Psychic Shriek any Invis character/unit to death with Ahriman in one turn, I reckon.

but he's still hitting on 6+...

 Ghenghis Jon wrote:

 Homeskillet wrote:
you can always DTW and shut it down.

DTW is not automatic. You statistically need to use 6 warp charges to deny the opponent's blessing, and that is if they only get 1 warp charge off to cast it. More if they happen to roll more than one 4+. Definitely not an option for even close to the majority of armies out there.

That's not how statistics works in this case.
1 dice = 16.66% chance
2 dice = 30.55%
3 dice = 42.13%
4 dice = 52.77%
5 dice = 59.81%
6 dice = 66.51%

You're better off trying to deny two blessings with three dice each than trying to deny one with six dice. Same chance of failure, but possible chance of two successes.

I just don't understand why they buffed it. Invisibility was one of the top telepathy powers in 6th. The only reason they seem to have changed it was because they were too lazy to think up a new original power when they took out puppet master and replaced it with the shrouded power.

Henshini wrote:
I just don't understand why they buffed it. Invisibility was one of the top telepathy powers in 6th. The only reason they seem to have changed it was because they were too lazy to think up a new original power when they took out puppet master and replaced it with the shrouded power.

This was true in early 6th (pre- Tau and eldar.), toward the end of 6th invisibility was a situational power. Great if your opponent did not ignore cover, garbage if they did.

 Vector Strike wrote:

 BrotherOfBone wrote:
You could Psychic Shriek any Invis character/unit to death with Ahriman in one turn, I reckon.

but he's still hitting on 6+...

doesn't matter with shriek

 Bulldogging wrote:

 rabidguineapig wrote:

 Arbiter wrote:
Ahriman is a beast, 3 shrieks a turn is brutal.

Does he have something to get around the rule that a unit can't cast the same power more than once per psychic phase? I'm legitimately asking, not trolling - I've never read his codex entry.

New FAQ says that his wargear "The Black Staff of Ahriman", allows him to manifest the same witchfire power up to 3 times per phase.

Wow that's pretty sweet, quite the buff!

 Gangrel767 wrote:

 Vector Strike wrote:

 BrotherOfBone wrote:
You could Psychic Shriek any Invis character/unit to death with Ahriman in one turn, I reckon.

but he's still hitting on 6+...

doesn't matter with shriek

Per my reading it does. It's a witchfire. Unless otherwise stated, those need to roll to hit. Page 27.

It needs to roll to hit, but unless they've changed the wording for resolving witchfires or psychic shriek it doesn't actually have to hit to affect the unit.

 Thariinye wrote:
The chances of getting at least one Invisibility if you roll all on Telepathy are, if I'm doing the math correctly, 1-(5/6*4/6*3/6)^2 == ~93%. Note that that's actually better than the previous edition, because if you make the decision to go all in on a discipline, you get the primaris for free, meaning you have only 6 powers to roll on instead of 7.

Unfortunately your math is not correct.

Chance of One Farseer not getting Invisibility is 5/6 x 4/5 x 3/4 or 1/2. The chance of two Farseers not getting Invisibility is 1/2 x 1/2 or 1/4. So, we have a 25% chance that two Farseers throwing everything they have at will not get it, which is the same as Tigerius's chances.

Belakor is the real issue as he is guaranteed to get it. Everyone else needs to devote substantial resources to having a good chance of it. Then, we have the chances that it is not cast, which even on 6 dice is 11% and much higher at 31% on three four dice.

If successful there is still a chance to Deny the Witch, if they have only two successes it can be Denied on 4 dice(13% chance) or 6 dice(26%), or even 9 dice(46%). If its successful with three dice it isn't worth a Dispel attempt unless you are throwing upwards of ~20 Deny dice.

Invisibility is extremely powerful and in some games it will win the game, but an army can mitigate it. Usually Invisibility will be only cast once per turn on four dice(69% Success), with a 26% chance of a Perils, then you get a chance to deny on an average of at least four dice(13%).

Averages out to only a 60% chance of a successful casting with a 13% chance of a Perils assuming a four WC casting and four WC Deny attempt. Its 78% successful on six WC casting with 26% chance of Perils.

Yep, its extremely powerful but it is far from a guarentee, and when it fails, you better punish that Casters unit or the intended target because when they get the power up, it isn't going to be pretty.


Unless you are Orks, then just Snap Shot away with your buckets of dice anyway.

 Zagman wrote:

 Thariinye wrote:
The chances of getting at least one Invisibility if you roll all on Telepathy are, if I'm doing the math correctly, 1-(5/6*4/6*3/6)^2 == ~93%. Note that that's actually better than the previous edition, because if you make the decision to go all in on a discipline, you get the primaris for free, meaning you have only 6 powers to roll on instead of 7.

Unless you are Orks, then just Snap Shot away with your buckets of dice anyway.

true, but there are buffs to dispel out there, rune priests get +1, Njal gets +2 making his chances of success much higher.

dont GK get to reroll their failures

Any GK rerolls 1s, a Dreadnought rerolls all failed dice when Denying.

Sevrin Loth of the Red Scorpions chapter is guaranteed to get it too.

As for psychic shriek, it's a witchfire. You have to roll to hit for it to affect it's target. That's how witchfire works.

Novas are actually a really good counter, unfortunately there isn't many of them and none of them are going to hurt invisible terminators much.

Exergy wrote:

 Zagman wrote:

 Thariinye wrote:
The chances of getting at least one Invisibility if you roll all on Telepathy are, if I'm doing the math correctly, 1-(5/6*4/6*3/6)^2 == ~93%. Note that that's actually better than the previous edition, because if you make the decision to go all in on a discipline, you get the primaris for free, meaning you have only 6 powers to roll on instead of 7.

Unless you are Orks, then just Snap Shot away with your buckets of dice anyway.

true, but there are buffs to dispel out there, rune priests get +1, Njal gets +2 making his chances of success much higher.

dont GK get to reroll their failures

Lanlaorn wrote:Any GK rerolls 1s, a Dreadnought rerolls all failed dice when Denying.

Actually that refers to a Unit making a DTW attempt, when Denying Blessings you aren't using a specific unit therefore you don't get the rerolls unfortunately, but for denying Debuffs and Witchfires, yes, you will get to reroll some dice.

 PrinceRaven wrote:
It needs to roll to hit, but unless they've changed the wording for resolving witchfires or psychic shriek it doesn't actually have to hit to affect the unit.

I don't know about changed wording. I know what I read in the 7th BRB witchfire needs to hit unless otherwise stated, psychic shriek dies not otherwise state, thus needs to hit to effect unit.

I don't like it. I've tried to shriek a DP out of the sky and been unable to.

 obsidiankatana wrote:

 Gangrel767 wrote:

 Vector Strike wrote:

 BrotherOfBone wrote:
You could Psychic Shriek any Invis character/unit to death with Ahriman in one turn, I reckon.

but he's still hitting on 6+...

doesn't matter with shriek

Per my reading it does. It's a witchfire. Unless otherwise stated, those need to roll to hit. Page 27.

Good call. My bad.

What is the consensus on templates and blast markers affecting invisible units?

Granted, I cannot target that unit with a flamer or blast marker, but if my template overlaps it OR if a blast scatters onto an invisible unit, does it hit the invisible unit? (Much like the doom scythe as well)

By my reading, I am not seeing anything that says they would not be hit by templates or blast markers. I only see you cannot intentionally target with them.

Henshini wrote:
I just don't understand why they buffed it. Invisibility was one of the top telepathy powers in 6th. The only reason they seem to have changed it was because they were too lazy to think up a new original power when they took out puppet master and replaced it with the shrouded power.

The way powers work has drastically changed. You can't just throw down all of your powers every turn anymore. A WC2 power requires you throw more dice at it than a ML3 psyker generates. Ignores cover is more prevalent now so its nice to have something that isn't effected by it.

 Green is Best! wrote:
What is the consensus on templates and blast markers affecting invisible units?

Granted, I cannot target that unit with a flamer or blast marker, but if my template overlaps it OR if a blast scatters onto an invisible unit, does it hit the invisible unit? (Much like the doom scythe as well)

By my reading, I am not seeing anything that says they would not be hit by templates or blast markers. I only see you cannot intentionally target with them.

Works the same way that blasts work with friendly models. You can't put them over them, but scatter can still be a bitch.

Walk that barrage template, make it walk.

 Leth wrote:
Also apparently ghost helms dont negate the other effects of perils, just the wound. Can someone confirm that(I dont have a codex).

I was just looking at that. The entire text is: "If a model with a ghosthelm suffers an unsaved Wound from Perils of the Warp, he can prevent it by immediately expending a Warp Charge point (if he has one)"

Looks like all the other effects still happen.

Makes tyranids shadow even better then. Making their leadership lower for if they perils. Have to seriously think about throwing that 10 dice.

 undertow wrote:

 Leth wrote:
Also apparently ghost helms dont negate the other effects of perils, just the wound. Can someone confirm that(I dont have a codex).

I was just looking at that. The entire text is: "If a model with a ghosthelm suffers an unsaved Wound from Perils of the Warp, he can prevent it by immediately expending a Warp Charge point (if he has one)"

Looks like all the other effects still happen.

Imo this just makes the Ghosthelm even more powerful. For Eldar the Perils Chart essentially looks like:
1 - ~9% chance of being removed from play, no other possible effects
2 - Randomly lose a power
3 - Lose D3 Warp Charge
4 and 5 - Nothing
6 - ~91% chance of a buff

So on a 3+ on this table you are guaranteed to not have any lasting negative effects. Losing a power is annoying, but it has a much lower chance of completely crippling you like it would for Lvl 1 Psykers.

I plan on making invisibility a 5+ to hit rather than a 6 and for shooting the unit needs 6 to hit NOT snap shots, just a 6 to hit, templates scatter without useing bs, power now fixed

 Kain wrote:

major_payne wrote:
Heres a good one, I have a tournament in August and there will be 3-5 seerstar/serpent/revenant lists... If a revenant becomes invisible for a turn, how do you kill it?... D-weapons are mainly blast at range, it was hard enough to kill it with its 3+ save...

Throw your rulebook at the users.

That'll teach 'em.

Never throw your weapon, rule one of a fight. Bash them with it. Better yet, bash the titan. While it's falling, scream something about how this isn't apoc.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
As for how to counter Invis, the moment they roll it, notice that they will be casting it. Save your charges to deny it. The plus side of new DTW is you're practically guaranteed to stop one power. Pick this one. Chances of them having it twice on two different characters is minimal.

 obsidiankatana wrote:

 PrinceRaven wrote:
It needs to roll to hit, but unless they've changed the wording for resolving witchfires or psychic shriek it doesn't actually have to hit to affect the unit.

I don't know about changed wording. I know what I read in the 7th BRB witchfire needs to hit unless otherwise stated, psychic shriek dies not otherwise state, thus needs to hit to effect unit.

"Similarly, a witchfire power must roll To Hit, unless it is has the Blast special rule, in which case it scatters as described in the Blast special rule, or it is a Template weapon, which hit automatically."

So, Psychic Shriek must roll to hit. However, when you take this rule into account:

"Assuming the Psychic test was passed and the enemy did not negate it with a successful Deny the Witch test, the power has been successfully manifested. Resolve its effects according to the instructions in its entry."

and the entry for Psychic Shriek:
"Psychic Shriek is a witchfire power with a range of 18". Roll 3D6 and subtract the target’s Leadership – the target unit suffers a number of Wounds equal to the result. Armour and cover saves cannot be taken against Wounds caused by Psychic Shriek."

We can see that, due to the remarkable job the GW design team has done, we have a psychic power that needs to roll to hit, but doesn't tell you to roll any dice to hit, and has an entry that does not actually require the to hit roll to be successful to resolve.
So to resolve Psychic Shriek, you roll 0 dice to hit, then roll 3D6 and subtract the target's Leadership, and inflict that many wounds.

 PrinceRaven wrote:

"Similarly, a witchfire power must roll To Hit, unless it is has the Blast special rule, in which case it scatters as described in the Blast special rule, or it is a Template weapon, which hit automatically."

So, Psychic Shriek must roll to hit. However, when you take this rule into account:

"Assuming the Psychic test was passed and the enemy did not negate it with a successful Deny the Witch test, the power has been successfully manifested. Resolve its effects according to the instructions in its entry."

and the entry for Psychic Shriek:
"Psychic Shriek is a witchfire power with a range of 18". Roll 3D6 and subtract the target’s Leadership – the target unit suffers a number of Wounds equal to the result. Armour and cover saves cannot be taken against Wounds caused by Psychic Shriek."

We can see that, due to the remarkable job the GW design team has done, we have a psychic power that needs to roll to hit, but doesn't tell you to roll any dice to hit, and has an entry that does not actually require the to hit roll to be successful to resolve.
So to resolve Psychic Shriek, you roll 0 dice to hit, then roll 3D6 and subtract the target's Leadership, and inflict that many wounds.

Do you use this same profile for Haemorrhage? It, too never specifies the requirement to hit despite being a witchfire spell.

There exists a rule for witchfires needing to hit unless otherwise stated. Psychic Shriek does not otherwise state, and stands in the same book as the rules for witchfire. Were it codex specific, I'd agree with you. Last I'll say on it, since this is not a YMDC thread.

I plan on spamming some vortex of doom. They will eventually scatter onto that invisible unit. I also have 14 + D6 warp charge in my list. That should help me at least target invisibilty for DtW. But it is seriously a problem.

Had an invisible Storm Raven. Was kind of funny. It unloaded the pain on the seer squad, who really doesn't like psi-shock.

-Matt

Karamazov. Ultimate counter to invisibility?

Umm, normally I wouldn't make such an absolute statement but, Invisibility is broken. I've used it a few times with just one plain Farseer, making it difficult to reliably cast spells.

Even previously weak units like Guardians and Shinig Spears can become defensive powerhouses. In one game a squad of Dire Avengers held up a Wolf Priest, Arjac and Logan and 2 other Wolf Terminators (took out the 2 Terminators by the way) for 2 whole turns. I might be over-estimating cuz' I had hot dice with my Shimmershield saves but, only getting hit on 6s is HUGE for a full squad.

I wanna run an Invisible beastpack but, in a way I don't. If I ran Eldrad + Farseer and got 2 units Invisible, I would actually understand if the opponent felt salty. There are other lists that can get Invisibility reliably cast on 3 or 4 units. Tank heavy IG players might as well not even pull their models out of the cases.

Mind you some units (cough Banshees cough) are still terrible even with it.

 RancidHate wrote:

Even previously weak units like Guardians and Shinig Spears can become defensive powerhouses. In one game a squad of Dire Avengers held up a Wolf Priest, Arjac and Logan and 2 other Wolf Terminators (took out the 2 Terminators by the way) for 2 whole turns. I might be over-estimating cuz' I had hot dice with my Shimmershield saves but, only getting hit on 6s is HUGE for a full squad.

Wouldn't a wolf tooth talisman overrule invis? It specifically states the model hits on 3+ in melee.

Wolf Tooth says ' hits on 3 regardless of weapon skill ' but the Invisibility says ' all hits in close combat require 6s to hit and all shots fired at the unit must be snap shots '.

I took the word ' all ' to slightly trump Wolf Tooth, since Invisibility doesn't make any mention of Weapon Skill like 6th edition Invisibility.

Wolf Tooth says the model always hits on 3+ (the weapon skill part is irrelevant, it still says you hit on 3+ all the time), Invisibility says it always hits on 6+. The rules are in conflict and thus the Codex overrules the rulebook. Similarly, Khârn would still hit on 2+ due to his special rule.

That's my take on it at least.

It's a valid take, since the rules are in conflict. I tried to flow chart it and, I do believe Kharn always hits on 2s since his rule IIRC is ' always hits on 2s but hits allies on 1s ' (and it says nothing about weapon skill. So flow could be?

Weapon Skill mentioned?

Yes. No direct conflict. BRB Invisibility Trumps.
No. Direct Conflict. Codex Trumps.

There's a thread on this in YMDC right now, and the interpretation that I currently like is:

Both Invisibility and the Wolf-tooth Talisman are 'set' modifiers, much like Unwieldy. Set modifiers all take place at the same time. We know what to do when two things happen at exactly the same time: the player whose turn it is gets to decide what order things happen in. Therefore on the Space Wolves turn, the guy holding the talisman hits on 3+ (player decides that 6+ Invis applies first, and is then overriden by 3+ wolf tooth), and on the Invisibility player's turn, their models are only hit on 6+ (Wolf tooth talisman first for 3+, then overridden by Invis for the 6+).

Just to clear it this up, it isn't codex trumps rulebook, but rather specific trumps generic.

Under Basic Versus Advanced: "On rare occasions, a conflict will arise between a rule in this rulebook, and one printed in a codex. Where this occurs, the rule printed in the codex or Army List Entry always takes precedence."

Honestly, I'm freaking thrilled about it because my auto-include Culexus isn't stupid anymore. Psyocculum is the greatest. Suck it invis-spammers. Toss him in with a shooty IC and blast some fool from a mile away with BS10.

Culexus assassins and null rods are so hot right now, instant death for Psykers + total immunity to psychic powers? LOL Psy-spam. I have never been more keyed into the inquisition.

The answer to invisibility is orks.

Because who cares about snap-shooting all that much when you are BS2 to begin with?

Okay well, Invisibility might have some hard counters but, I still feel it's broken. However, to remain on topic, here are some counters:

Ork Shooting
Some Necron scythes? (please elaborate)
Kharn
IG FRFSRF
Nova or Beam type psychic attacks

MAybe?

 RancidHate wrote:
Okay well, Invisibility might have some hard counters but, I still feel it's broken. However, to remain on topic, here are some counters:

Ork Shooting
Some Necron scythes? (please elaborate)
Kharn
IG FRFSRF
Nova or Beam type psychic attacks

MAybe?

Tesla weapons hot three times for every 6 you roll, most are win linked. They actually "hit" 3.6 times on average for every four Twinlinked shots needing 6s. Tesla is one of the base weapons that will still be extremely effective, it's how tesla can decimate flyers so well.

Im totally up for trying to make a competative karamazov build. Im sure he combos well with conscripts and priests.

 RancidHate wrote:
Okay well, Invisibility might have some hard counters but, I still feel it's broken. However, to remain on topic, here are some counters:

Ork Shooting
Some Necron scythes? (please elaborate)
Kharn
IG FRFSRF
Nova or Beam type psychic attacks

MAybe?

Ork shooting AND Ork CC. Even if my Bikers only hit on a 6, weight of attacks and high T means I'll still be winning most combats against the lists I've seen on Dakka. Opp. will need 4's to hit and 6's to wound with either a 4+ or 5++ save and then 5+ (soon to be 4+?) FNP with non-MC's. I still will be winning combats and running them down. Even with our hilariously outdated 4th ed prices. Next month the Orks will save y'all when our massive points cut happens.

Shoot other stuff? They are unlikely to have two invisibilities in the army.

Also they wont know if they are going to get it until after they move their guys so they are taking a risk.

We dealt with worse than invisibility with the 2+ re-rollables. I am failing to see why this is suddenly so much worse.

Because even more armies can have it and unlike the Grimoire Invisibility is not limited to 1 per army?

Because we didn't actually "deal with" 2+ rerollables at all?

 PrinceRaven wrote:
Because even more armies can have it and unlike the Grimoire Invisibility is not limited to 1 per army?

Because we didn't actually "deal with" 2+ rerollables at all?

That is my point, no one effectively shut down 2+ re-rollables which was limited to two armys. Now that more people can get something similar it suddenly needs to be taken care of?

I say let it ride for now and if it becomes an actual problem once people get out of the 6th edition mindset and get into the 7th edition mindset and lists then we can see.

Of course it needs to be taken care of, highly mobile nigh-invulnerable deathstars have needed taking care of since last edition, when something is a problem and becomes more prevalent it becomes a bigger problem, not a smaller one.

Indeed, however as with all things I think there are better ways to mitigate the units than to change the core rule. I think focus on being mission designer instead.

Create missions where the deathstar can still function but there are not as many incentives to playing as such.

Just be glad that a sorcerer can't manifest invisibility from inside a tank. While repeatedly making the tank invisible.

Hmm...that new invisibility....what the hell?!? Is that just me, or its really OP?

Indeed, however as with all things I think there are better ways to mitigate the units than to change the core rule. I think focus on being mission designer instead.

Create missions where the deathstar can still function but there are not as many incentives to playing as such.

+1. As usual, you provide a voice of reason to counter all the gloom and doom-saying.

7th is still in its infancy. We all need to take a wait-and-see approach before claiming something is completely broken.

Yes, Invisibility seems a bit too good. However, I'll reserve my decision until after ATC and NOVA.

 Lothar wrote:
Hmm...that new invisibility....what the hell?!? Is that just me, or its really OP?

That is the basic idea of this thread.

There is far too much "the sky is falling" from theory crafting. With the dispel pool you always have at least somewhat of a chance to shut down that 1 spell you hate. Like others, the sky isn't falling until you see the same army take all places at the major events.

Am I the only one seeing the rise of a the 50 point Xenos Inquisitor HQ with a null rod? Any army can ally in two of these for 100 points and give two squads immunity to the effects of invisibility. Alternatively, give one of the Xenos Inquisitors a Psyocculum and put him on whatever you want to use to snipe the invis-giver, bs10 for him and his unit when targeting a psyker.

Bigfashizzel wrote:
Am I the only one seeing the rise of a the 50 point Xenos Inquisitor HQ with a null rod? Any army can ally in two of these for 100 points and give two squads immunity to the effects of invisibility. Alternatively, give one of the Xenos Inquisitors a Psyocculum and put him on whatever you want to use to snipe the invis-giver, bs10 for him and his unit when targeting a psyker.

Null Rod + Psyocculum and three servo skulls is pretty legit.

However it doesnt affect powers that target other units, only when they themselves are the target of a power. So it doesnt cancel out invis. Also psyocculum makes them BS 10, however snap shots say they are alway bs1 unless something says otherwise, which the ability does not.

In the Meta, unless invisibility is taken by daemon players, it won't remotely matter against players bringing the dark arts...why, because Daemon/CSM combo lists will be camping for two turns spamming up to 20 dice in the pool...

How many invisible units will there be when you can't get a spell off?

How's invisibility handle blast and template weapons?

Johnnytorrance wrote:
How's invisibility handle blast and template weapons?

Blast and Template weapons cannot Snap Shot therefore they can't even target the Invisible Unit.

 Leth wrote:


However it doesnt affect powers that target other units, only when they themselves are the target of a power. So it doesnt cancel out invis. Also psyocculum makes them BS 10, however snap shots say they are alway bs1 unless something says otherwise, which the ability does not.

Am I missing something here? Null Rod states that the unit cannot be affected by any psychic power in any way, how does that not penetrate invis? If your unit is being forced to snap-shoot due to a psychic power, it is being affected by the psychic power... It seems pretty clear that the Null Rod counters invisibility.

Null rod says that the unit can not be TARGETed by powers.

Well, one counter I can think of is for armies that get a decent amount of warp charge points just save them for dispel dice.

As nerfed as Tyranids got, they can still get a lot of charges to dispel with; that's an adequate (if not hard) counter. That's one example.

I still like Invisibility in a mischievous way; Invisibility buffed Wraithguard, get hit only 6s get wounded usually on 6s 3+ save? Yes, Motha-F-in please!

It takes roughly all of my dice to deny a single WC 3 power provided I roll well and they only got 3 4+s.
And then my opponent just uses Invisibility again with a different psyker.

 PrinceRaven wrote:
It takes roughly all of my dice to deny a single WC 3 power provided I roll well and they only got 3 4+s.
And then my opponent just uses Invisibility again with a different psyker.

Except you cant cast from or on to the same unit with the same blessing. So unless he has two units you are worried about it doesnt work that way.

Like a second Wraithknight? If someone's planning on abusing Invisibility that probably have a list containing more than 1 threat in it.

 PrinceRaven wrote:
Like a second Wraithknight? If someone's planning on abusing Invisibility that probably have a list containing more than 1 threat in it.

The most common threat will be Be'lakor though... and he's a solo act.

 Leth wrote:

 PrinceRaven wrote:
Because even more armies can have it and unlike the Grimoire Invisibility is not limited to 1 per army?

Because we didn't actually "deal with" 2+ rerollables at all?

That is my point, no one effectively shut down 2+ re-rollables which was limited to two armys. Now that more people can get something similar it suddenly needs to be taken care of?

I say let it ride for now and if it becomes an actual problem once people get out of the 6th edition mindset and get into the 7th edition mindset and lists then we can see.

Last game I played of 6th my BikerBoss and Lootas took out Flying Fateweaver with Grimore. Weight of attacks, the Orks will save the galaxy from the Demon incursion . . .

 Leth wrote:
Null rod says that the unit can not be TARGETed by powers.

I guess my Rod is better than yours.

Page 57 codex daemon hunters.
A null rod is a power weapon. Any unsaved wounds caused by a null rod inflict instant death on psykers. Furthermore, the bearer (and his squad) cannot be affected by psychic powers (friendly or enemy) in any way.

Ordo Hereticus Inquisitor, Null Rod, Grimoire of True Names. 55 pts. Add another Ordo Heretics Inquisitor, Null Rod. 105 points that can be added to practically any army that absolutely poops on Demons. Want to get saucy? Give them both Mlvl1 for another 30pts a piece, some of the cheapest warp charges available.

You'd have a very hard time convincing anyone that a Null Rod makes your unit ignore buffs on the enemy unit.

The cheapest warp charges are still a unit of 2 Acolytes and a Psyker in a GK Psyback. 68 points for 2 power dice, and a twin-linked S6 AP4 Heavy 3 gun.

To Matt: what you quoted from that codex in no way implies that an opposing unit cannot buff itself. It very clearly means that the - Psyker's - squad cannot be buffed, de-buffed, or shot at by witchfire.

Well the cheapest is just the 2 acolytes and a psyker hanging out on some rear objective.

You can take six of them for 108 points, keep them in cover and liberally go to ground, roll on Telepathy for each and they could even be serious threats to anyone within 18-24 inches.

This is what I'm going to try as soon as I kitbash together some distinctive looking Inquisitorial psykers. Some elite GK elements (Dreadknights, Draigo and some Paladins maybe?) to go hold forth and a half dozen Coteaz objective holders in the rear feeding warp charges.

 RancidHate wrote:
To Matt: what you quoted from that codex in no way implies that an opposing unit cannot buff itself. It very clearly means that the - Psyker's - squad cannot be buffed, de-buffed, or shot at by witchfire.

yeah, like that DE special character that is immune to psykic powers, yet still dies via ID by force weapons. The force weapons aren't affecting her or her unit, they are affecting the wielders weapon.

Well I might just have to get it from codex grey knights then. Because it is different wording in codex inquisition. Sounds like it will probably be FAQed eventually but until then, rock it.

Tbh all this sillyness with Psychic powers still doesn't stop a massive fearless block of boys from charging up the field and tarpitting/killing whatever it is that's the problem. Unless the unit that has invisibility is a close combat monster/unit with 10+ attacks per turn, they aren't going to be making a dent in the game for at least another couple of turns. The only problem I can really see is casting invisibility on something that can't be held down, like a titan. But then, if someone honestly thinks that a pick up game is fair when one side is running a revenant they need their head checking.

As a Tau/Ork player, this new edition is going to be a bit of a rollercoaster for a while until I figure out how to deal with the deamon spam. I think tag team Markerlight units (and a lot of them) will be the key to clearing off invisibility, as they can pretty much do what they do with flyers, and just stack bs until the power is basically pointless. Deamon spam however, is another kettle of fish. Why haven't GW limited the pskyer pool? Surely that would fix a lot of this abuse anyway.

 Leth wrote:

 PrinceRaven wrote:
It takes roughly all of my dice to deny a single WC 3 power provided I roll well and they only got 3 4+s.
And then my opponent just uses Invisibility again with a different psyker.

Except you cant cast from or on to the same unit with the same blessing. So unless he has two units you are worried about it doesnt work that way.

Where do you find the rule that says you cannot cast the same power on a unit if the first one failed?

Sorry, I meant from a unit. only. I got stuck on seer councils

Fragile wrote:

 Leth wrote:

 PrinceRaven wrote:
It takes roughly all of my dice to deny a single WC 3 power provided I roll well and they only got 3 4+s.
And then my opponent just uses Invisibility again with a different psyker.

Except you cant cast from or on to the same unit with the same blessing. So unless he has two units you are worried about it doesnt work that way.

Where do you find the rule that says you cannot cast the same power on a unit if the first one failed?

Oh I think I know the answer to this one. [clears throat]. Nowhere?

Edit - ninja'd. We'll not even. Stupid phone didn't refresh the page lol.

I'm sorry, I play tzeentch deamons so I will deal with invisibility the same way I deal with flyers, flick fire spam and vector strike... Hammer of wrath will do the trick too. Also you know, fire a flame template at it indirectly.

Screamer's slashing attacks also work fine against invisible models. And no cover.

Ouroboros0977 wrote:
I'm sorry, I play tzeentch deamons so I will deal with invisibility the same way I deal with flyers, flick fire spam and vector strike... Hammer of wrath will do the trick too. Also you know, fire a flame template at it indirectly.

I also play Tzeentch Daemons, and I'll deal with Invisibility or Fortune by throwing all of my 30 dispell dice at it.

 RancidHate wrote:
To Matt: what you quoted from that codex in no way implies that an opposing unit cannot buff itself. It very clearly means that the - Psyker's - squad cannot be buffed, de-buffed, or shot at by witchfire.

Odd, I thought it meant what it says, cannot be affected in any way.
I totally believe it will get FAQ'd or rewritten to do what the codex inquisition says, but that's what it says now.

As for invisibility, I'd say the nullrod squad ignores it; because its a psychic power affects my unit.
Invisibility may target you, but it directly affects me.
Where as if you had a Telekine Dome, Fireshield or Forewarning up, it's isn't affecting me, you aren't changing my units action; I'd shoot at any unit with one of those blessings the exact same way I'd fire on a unit without one of those blessings.

If you want to know how stupid invisibility is, you just need to watch a death company dreadnought (which now scores!), drop pod into the backfield, step out, and turn invisible. Oh, and he's got claws.
I had half an army running away from that thing. Was great fun until the Storm Raven entered play, and I have an even better target to make invisible.

Ok Matt that's enough, Invisibility affects what happens to the unit it is cast on, it does not directly affect the unit with the Null Rod. Now you're just trying to tell all the posters on this forum that 2+2=5.

I used Invisibility last night.

Kept my five spawn alive for the entire game even though they shunned cover like a cat to water.

Be'Lakor did peril twice however, and almost fell into the Warp mind.

My anti invisibility units are a conscript squad with inquisitor with the psyocculum re-rolling plus frfsrf or a squad of wyverns and walk the blast over. Just try and get the first blast that hits the unit to hit the psyker first (all wounds are taken from the first blast going out).

 HawaiiMatt wrote:
As for invisibility, I'd say the nullrod squad ignores it; because its a psychic power affects my unit.
Invisibility may target you, but it directly affects me.

No, it indirectly effects you. Just as an invulnerable buff on an enemy unit indirectly effects you.

Invisibility + Cursed Earth + Endurance on a full unit of Khorne Dogs + Karnak is fairly nasty.

Not that it's something I'd probably do, but can't a tank shock hit an Invis unit? Granted they'll probably have LD10 and not really care, but it's something that isn't effected, right? Don't have my BRB on me and I never tank shock, so I can't say with any certainty if it's even a viable attack.

Invisibility isn't a guarantee, sure, but there are armies that can abuse the hell out of it with significant ease. Guard is my army and to quote another Dakka member, "I'll just use the power, 'We roll more shooting dice than you.'."

RE: Null Rod Debate, I think the wording of the Inquisitor Codex entry makes it fairly clear that GK codex entry was oversight. As written, the GK Null Rod would remove invisibility, but that clearly isn't intended and isn't worth arguing about.

All I can do now is load up on MSU warp charges and hope my Callidus + Karamazov Alpha Orbital can do enough damage. I think that Invisibility scales so insanely well against high point cost model armies (or at least units) that are balanced around having higher BS and fewer shots. Overall I think that all varieties of SM will be forced to reevaluate strategies in the upcoming future, particularly with the Orc update.

I knew I should've started Eldar, haha!

 RancidHate wrote:
Ok Matt that's enough, Invisibility affects what happens to the unit it is cast on, it does not directly affect the unit with the Null Rod. Now you're just trying to tell all the posters on this forum that 2+2=5.

You're coming off as a little rude; sorry if I seem to be as well.

It's pretty basic really, I've got 2 inquisitors with null rods (because I didn't run any of the special characters), both join units.
One unit fires at an enemy that doesn't have the buff, and it hits on 3+ (being BS4).
The other unit fires on the psychically buffed enemy and is forced to discard the 3+,4+ and 5+ hits, because of the psychic power.
Invisibility is affecting the shooting of the nullrod unit, and the GK nullrod currently says that it cannot be affected in any way.

You seem to be the one claiming that 3+ to hit = 6+ to hit.

Several things in the Grey Knight codex are out of date, and this is just one of them. Add it to the list of things to discuss with your opponent before the game (like the vindicares snipe ability).

RAW with GK null rod seems pretty simple. It doesn't say it makes a blessing go away, but it does say the squad with the null rod can not be affected in any way. The invisible unit stays invisible, but the null rod squad ignores invisibility because it is attempting to affect the squad with the null rod.

Next example of how a null rod works. Friendly unit casts shrouding within 6" of a null rod. Power goes off as normal, but the squad with the null rod is not affected by shrouding.

Raw is simple in this case: A hostile invisibilty and a friendly shrouding are ignored by a null rod.

 HawaiiMatt wrote:

 RancidHate wrote:
Ok Matt that's enough, Invisibility affects what happens to the unit it is cast on, it does not directly affect the unit with the Null Rod. Now you're just trying to tell all the posters on this forum that 2+2=5.

You're coming off as a little rude; sorry if I seem to be as well.

It's pretty basic really, I've got 2 inquisitors with null rods (because I didn't run any of the special characters), both join units.
One unit fires at an enemy that doesn't have the buff, and it hits on 3+ (being BS4).
The other unit fires on the psychically buffed enemy and is forced to discard the 3+,4+ and 5+ hits, because of the psychic power.
Invisibility is affecting the shooting of the nullrod unit, and the GK nullrod currently says that it cannot be affected in any way.

You seem to be the one claiming that 3+ to hit = 6+ to hit.

Several things in the Grey Knight codex are out of date, and this is just one of them. Add it to the list of things to discuss with your opponent before the game (like the vindicares snipe ability).

Does a psychic blessing which buffs the toughness of a unit get ignored by a null rod too? Because obviously two identical units (except for the null rod on one) firing on my toughness buffed squad would wound my squad different amounts.

Matt and others, since you are arguing you get to ignore a buff on another unit, I am wondering where you draw the line. Do you ignore all buffs (you'd be consistent but absurd). Or just this one in particular (illogical and absurd).


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 schadenfreude wrote:
Raw is simple in this case: A hostile invisibilty and a friendly shrouding are ignored by a null rod.

Something is simple around here, that's for sure, but not this.

So every psychic buff is ignored by a null rod, because every buff, one way or another in some way would indirectly effect the null rod toting unit if said null rod toting unit decides to interact with the psychically buffed unit. That's your argument. Because if that isn't your argument you are picking and choosing where null rod does and does not work which means you are just being incredibly inconsistent. So please tell me if what I wrote is your actual argument.

Actually i think there is a difference between the two.
In case of fortune or toughness boost, or save boost, it is really the stats of the target that are affected, so they should keep it.
In the case of invisibility you do not improve a stat or improve anything on the target, you disable your opponent's ability to shoot at you

For me you have three way to look at it :
- Null rod lets you ignore everything at all (including stat buff as you mentionned)
- Null rod lets you ignore everything that has an effect on YOUR rolls (so to shoot/wound) but lets you keep improved saves (as they are the ennemies rolls)
- Null rod is crap and dont do anything

sleekid wrote:
Actually i think there is a difference between the two.
In case of fortune or toughness boost, or save boost, it is really the stats of the target that are affected, so they should keep it.
In the case of invisibility you do not improve a stat or improve anything on the target, you disable your opponent's ability to shoot at you.

Assertions don't arguments make. Increasing toughness makes it harder to wound that unit. Decreasing chances to hit that unit makes it harder to wound that unit. If either psychic buff is used what's the difference? None. The outcome, attacking unit wounds psychic unit less, is the same. That would fall under the silly "any way" umbrella wouldn't it? Of course it would. "Any way" is after all "any way" lol.

Also note that it is claimed by others here that null rod would ignore shrouding. Which improves cover save of the target. But apparently you disagree. Looks like there are splinter factions now in Team Absurd Rules Lawyers!

Someone mentioned HoW which is great for NobBikers along with DeffRollas. Assuming the new Codex has them, D6 Str 10 auto-hits in the movement phase? Any idea how that would work? The only "targeting" you're doing is with the Tank Shocking vehicle? The Deffrolla is a side effect, not a weapon.

@Super Newb : Thanks for calling me Team Absurd Rules Lawyers because i expressed MY opinion on the subject.

Am i not entitled to my opinion just as you are?

What i am saying (i might need to clarify) is that rules currently need a FaQ on the topic.
- RaW it seems that with null rod you would ignore it all
- I would however not play it totally like that and only ignore the effects that modify your dice rolls (so to hit/wound) but not those to save for instance
- I see that there are different opinions (like yours) so i added the third choice

So does a null rod unit ignore summoned daemons? After all, that would be them being affected by a psychic power.

"Any way" gets dumb really fast.

This discussion is better suited for YMDC.

In either case, are there any other units that can potentially deal with Invisibility? I like the deffrolla idea.

Zimko wrote:
This discussion is better suited for YMDC.

In either case, are there any other units that can potentially deal with Invisibility? I like the deffrolla idea.

Well, GKs should have no problem with invis dealing. They can use all of their WCH, which they have plenty, to deny the power (example - 14 dice is over 70.40% to deny invis, 17 Dice: 80.17% )

As for other codices, i dont know...

To Matt: if I sound rude, good, I intended to (sfhort of name calling and anything personal of course)

To kid: Newb is calling your absurd because your opinion with a pretty clear-cut MIS-interpretation of fact.

Y'all would argue that the Null Rod squad would still get cover saves if I buffed some other ally with Perfect Timing? Or that the Null Rod squad would still wound on 4s instead 5s I I buffed one of my squads with Endurance?

NO!

1. The benefits of the Null Rod are many but, denying opponent buffs aren't one of them. Null Rod, like DE Lady Malys, ignores Maledictions and Witchfire TARGETED at the Null Rod squad (which includes Beam and Nova witchfire, even though they would otherwise auto hit).

2. Until GW strictly states, 'enemy squads do NOT receive the benefits of psychic blessings against attacks made by a squad with a Null Rod user and, psychic blessings (e.g. improved BS, I, etc..) do not manifest against squads withh Null Rod users.' #1 applies.

Got that? Until #2 takes place, #1 applies.

Zimko wrote:
This discussion is better suited for YMDC.

I agree. Matt asked this question a week ago in ymdc. But then never replied when someone gave him a counter argument. Of what about summoned demons. Thread was just two posts lol.

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/597133.page


Automatically Appended Next Post:

sleekid wrote:
@Super Newb : Thanks for calling me Team Absurd Rules Lawyers because i expressed MY opinion on the subject.

Am i not entitled to my opinion just as you are?

What i am saying (i might need to clarify) is that rules currently need a FaQ on the topic.
- RaW it seems that with null rod you would ignore it all
- I would however not play it totally like that and only ignore the effects that modify your dice rolls (so to hit/wound) but not those to save for instance
- I see that there are different opinions (like yours) so i added the third choice

I don't think you thought "ignore it all" through. If "any way" in the null rod rull means ignoring more than buffs, debuffs and psychic shooting on the unit holding the null rod, well then, you'd basically have to FORGE THE NARRATIVE and create a "MIRROR UNIVERSE" and play two games. One for the unit with the null rod, one for every other unit in your army. You want to know why? Because a null rod ignores summoned demons. It ignores when your opponent levitates themself closer to you and then gets in shooting range. And so on. So play the turn once pretending the demons aren't there, then play it again when they are. Because the null rod unit created an alternate universe


That's Matt's argument led to its logical but absurd conclusion.

So for the first time ever we would have a rule from GW that was not thought through...... how surprising.

RaW is not always the best way to play it as it can be stupid as you mention.

That is why (if you happen to read my post) i mention that i would not play it like that.

sleekid wrote:
So for the first time ever we would have a rule from GW that was not thought through...... how surprising.

RaW is not always the best way to play it as it can be stupid as you mention.

That is why (if you happen to read my post) i mention that i would not play it like that.

Not sure why you are taking this personally. An argument was made multiple times before you chimed in, your last post mentioned it in passing and I pointed how ridiculous that argument is.

Anyway, you seem to be trying for some middle ground which can only happen by a bunch of house ruling. I'd rather just take effected in any way to mean when targeted. Otherwise it opens up a whole mess of problems, some of which cause alternate universes to form lol

"Does that summoned unit contest my objective" "Nope that is affected by psychic powers"

"Does that psychic shooting attack kill that unit?" "Nope I need it to shield my unit to get cover saves"

"Can I move through that summoned unit" "Yep, otherwise their movement is affected by psychic powers"

We have a more modern ruling for the same piece of wargear. That is how I would play it and expect others to do the same. It is two editions old from a different time when wording for psychic powers was completely different.

 Leth wrote:
"Does that summoned unit contest my objective" "Nope that is affected by psychic powers"

"Does that psychic shooting attack kill that unit?" "Nope I need it to shield my unit to get cover saves"

"Can I move through that summoned unit" "Yep, otherwise their movement is affected by psychic powers"

We have a more modern ruling for the same piece of wargear. That is how I would play it and expect others to do the same. It is two editions old from a different time when wording for psychic powers was completely different.

This. The wording in GK codex is obviously too old. New wording of the same wargear in Inquisition codex explains how we should play this nowadays.

I play against a player who wraps his psyker in centurions to keep him alive and drops about 800-1000 points in that unit with other models. I know at least one is Draigo. He also stacks BB so that he gets rerollable psychic choices (granted only three) on 19 powers.

It is basically unkillable with invis and other types of defensive psychic powers he gets to choose because he can take so many powers.

When te psyker is wrapped in a monsteous unit like that then the 'kill the caster' advice is useless.
When the unit can deep strike anywhere and drop an armies worth of shots and grav weapons etc on ANYTHING on the board then 'ignoringthem and claiming objectives' is useless.
DTW might work in some armies but what exactly can cron/Tau do when they get AT MOST 6 charges to DTW against 15+.

I am o the opinion that invis IS the current state of game. But that's just me.

seism85 wrote:
I play against a player who wraps his psyker in centurions to keep him alive and drops about 800-1000 points in that unit with other models. I know at least one is Draigo. He also stacks BB so that he gets rerollable psychic choices (granted only three) on 19 powers.

It is basically unkillable with invis and other types of defensive psychic powers he gets to choose because he can take so many powers.

A couple Culexus assassins would make it sad. (Couple, so that you have better board coverage.) Centurions snap-firing at a thing they need 6s to wound means they're not going to be killing the assassin even if he doesn't have any kind of cover. If your local meta is so full of psychic deathstars... a few assassins might make all the difference.

When the unit can deep strike anywhere and drop an armies worth of shots and grav weapons etc on ANYTHING on the board then 'ignoringthem and claiming objectives' is useless.

MSU is the answer to epic unkillable deathstars. They can only shoot one unit and maybe kill another with psychic powers.

sleekid wrote:
So for the first time ever we would have a rule from GW that was not thought through...... how surprising.

RaW is not always the best way to play it as it can be stupid as you mention.

That is why (if you happen to read my post) i mention that i would not play it like that.

If you want to fight RAW fire with fire, point out that the last clause of invisibility doesn't say ONLY the targetted enemy hits only on a 6. I say GW did a fine job of balancing the shooting defense by nerfing the units ability to hit in close combat. Fluffwise, they must be unable to find their close combat weapons. "in it" can refer to close combat, not just the casting unit.

Mavnas wrote:

seism85 wrote:
I play against a player who wraps his psyker in centurions to keep him alive and drops about 800-1000 points in that unit with other models. I know at least one is Draigo. He also stacks BB so that he gets rerollable psychic choices (granted only three) on 19 powers.

It is basically unkillable with invis and other types of defensive psychic powers he gets to choose because he can take so many powers.

A couple Culexus assassins would make it sad. (Couple, so that you have better board coverage.) Centurions snap-firing at a thing they need 6s to wound means they're not going to be killing the assassin even if he doesn't have any kind of cover. If your local meta is so full of psychic deathstars... a few assassins might make all the difference.

When the unit can deep strike anywhere and drop an armies worth of shots and grav weapons etc on ANYTHING on the board then 'ignoringthem and claiming objectives' is useless.

MSU is the answer to epic unkillable deathstars. They can only shoot one unit and maybe kill another with psychic powers.

I play crons. I can't access the infinite playbox of broken combos that the Imperium armies can, but i shall look into taking them as a 'come te Apoc' Ally

problem with "come the apoc" allies is you cant even benefit from it then unless youre fielding about as many imperials/other races that have it than you are crons.

Invisibility is more of an annoyance on most units, since it makes just about anything stupid durable. The units that become utterly insane are usually expensive as gak and probably will make your ally formation cost ~800 easily if not more depending on the race. Then you gotta hope you get the right spell lol.

Quite frankly i find it dumb that Templates cannot target invisible models. Blasts i can understand since theyre usually long range weapons in fluff (few oddballs obviously) and you arent going to see a shimmering figure like you do in Starcraft when Ghosts are invisible at extreme distances.
Templates really should be allowed to hit them because theyre all short ranged weapons, making it likely you can tell something is there so you just blanked the area in flame. Even if they made it have a penalty like -1 strength or something it would make sense and make invisibility less insane.

Also find it dumb that it makes melee attacks hit on a 6+.....when the worst you can hit on normally is 5+....wth

Invisibility to me...Is certainly a bit over the top right now. When combined with psychic shriek the unit is nigh on un-tarpitable, and in addition to that, if the unit is has the ability to get around the map quickly, your looking at a unit dissapearing off the table each turn due to the nature of the Invisible units ususally being something along the lines of a deathstar.

The easiest way to deal with a death star is to ignore it, however it's hard to ignore deathstars that will be capable of chasing you down and wiping you out with ranged fire rather than melee, and this is what is the great case to be made here. So many people are looking at the game of deathstars in that of terms to a melee unit that still needs to travel to where it needs to go to. However due to the number of gate of infinity, t bikers, and drop pod assault rise, ranged death stars are far from unimaginable. A ranged death star is much tougher to get through than a melee death star because you have to go through a legitimate over watch with pimped TL Fire/prescience, and while people say take mass amount of fliers or go MSU, one has to take note of the fact that not every faction is really capable of doing so/effectively and even then they will be shot down with considerable ease from a ranged death star.

Right now we are seeing melee invisible death stars. What happens when we start seeing people take up multiple libbies and psychers attaching them to multiple ranged units that happen to be OBS. Now there are all of a sudden 2 extremely hard ranged units to kill in a game that is very much sides toward ranged warfare. The game changes drastically, because you can't shoot them off. While I don't consider the ability to be OP as of yet... I do think that there will be quite a lot of Rage in the next few tournaments coming up next where we see Invisibility was completely abused, making even the most simplistic units to kill, a nightmare when it comes end game and you need to score those objectives. I heard a lot of people stating how flyers need 6s to hit as well, but they aren't O.P. and yes you are right, and that is because when YOU take a flier you can hit it with NORMAL balistic skill rather than 6s. Invisibility is 6s to hit at all times, no exceptions. If fliers were in the same boat I bet you this game would contain armies of at least 2 fliers if not more.

I personally believe that after some tournaments where we see this power in full effect we'll have to probably consider changing the ruling for this power to something along the lines of 5+ to hit rather than 6. 5+ to hit, while not good is certainly more capable than 6s while still keeping the same similiar result of invisibility now which nullifies the capabilities of everything to be of really any effect to such a unit when it is casted.

Crudelix is the answer to 500+ pt psychic deathstars.

Tarpit his invisible unit with a fearless blob and ignore it.

They can deepstrike out of the tarpit.

Yeah, so tarpit + Culexus assassin, who is now also stealing their warp charges to shoot other stuff

(Though it would be hilarious if the enemy had like 10+ charge in one place on the board and you had your assassin there and took 13+ AP1 shots at things.

 OldSkoolGoff wrote:
Tarpit his invisible unit with a fearless blob and ignore it.

Name an example?

Because a Seeker blob /w locus of beguilement herald is putting down 85 WS5 rending attacks on the charge, that all re-roll failed to-hits. And your Nob/Commissar/Priest is being challenged out and killed during the first assault phase due to LoB not allowing your characters to decline challenges.

You ain't tarpittin' nuthin mate.

It is, and I am totally not saying that because I rely on blasts to do most of the damage. I think its stupid at that ''We can't see the target, so we'll avoid flattening the area where we think they might be''.

 BlaxicanX wrote:

 OldSkoolGoff wrote:
Tarpit his invisible unit with a fearless blob and ignore it.

Name an example?

Because a Seeker blob /w locus of beguilement herald is putting down 85 WS5 rending attacks on the charge, that all re-roll failed to-hits. And your Nob/Commissar/Priest is being challenged out and killed during the first assault phase due to LoB not allowing your characters to decline challenges.

You ain't tarpittin' nuthin mate.

Not familiar with the unit you're describing but wouldn't

30 Slugga Boyz in 'eavy armour with a boss nob with a powerklaw, accompanied by a Warboss with a powerklaw and 'eavy armour (or possible mega armour), and a painboy hold it in place at least for a while?

But 85 WS5 rending attacks sounds pretty scary. I'd probably be shooting that unit up with just about everything on the table for a few turns before it got to me. No one in my area plays daemons though, so again, I'm not familiar with the unit.

edit: Any old painboy won't work, it needs to be the named character PB.

Aye, it's pretty horrifying- especially for its price and speed. 380 points gets you 20 seekers and the herald, which is ML2 and has the Locus of Beguilement for re-rolling hits. The seekers are WS5/I5 with 3 base attacks that are rending, while the herald is WS7/I7 with 5 rending attacks base and an AP2 sword option for 10 points. The unit collectively has a 12'' move and a D6+6'' run, along with fleet, which pretty much allows it to be in your deployment zone at the top of turn 2. Against boyz in 'eavy armor, it's killing 19 of them on the charge, losing five seekers from the boyz attacks, then wiping the boyz out during the next fight phase. With average rolls, of course.

Now, take that and make it invisible.

You're totally right that whittling it down with guns is the best way to handle it, but that brings us back around to invisibility. The unit moves so quickly that you're only getting one turn to shoot at it before it's safely in assault, but all your shots are hitting on 6's. Granted, for Orks that's not a big deal. Da boyz don't need no fancy BS!

I won't comment on how it is broken, this has been discussed at length. I rather ask myself why it is this way and how it could be tackled.

I think the why is mainly because there is no general rock-paper-scissory remedy to it. While flyers can also only be hit on a 6 you have the skyfire rule. If you had invisibility, but also had a power that gives "sense invisibility" that is available to most armies then it already would be less broken and rather a part of the meta ("Do I have to spend points to get the counter or can I live with dealing with the uncountered power"). Toning it down would help a bit, but either it is still strong which means it will still be used and considered unfair or it is not strong anymore and will not be used at all again.

For tournaments I would probably think about banning the power. From GW I really hope about including it in the USR, introducing counters. But this will not come by FAQ (too complicated and extensive), rather in a new edition. It's a bit like with flyers. In 6th there were less counters and they were strong (Helldrake auto-include, anyone...), in 7th I feel you have quite some answers to a flyer heavy army.

Really just making Invis work like the Culexus's Etherium rule were attacks against the unit are resolved at WS1 and BS1. Its relatively the same but lets blasts and templates be an answer to it and lets melee units not be completely neutered against it since they'll hit on 5's now (and could hit on 4+ if they can lower the target's WS to 1 or 2 as well with like fear or something)

Invisibility is the kind of broken that I'd hoped was limited to WHFB's magic phase.

It's the sort of effect that just shouldn't exist. Snap-shots are an awful mechanic at the bet of times, and this just highlights that.

I mean, it's not even as if the affect fits the fluff. e.g. why, when there is an invisible unit nearby, do men with flamers and blast weapons refuse to fire them? Surely these would be the absolute best weapons for locating an invisible unit?

 vipoid wrote:

I mean, it's not even as if the affect fits the fluff. e.g. why, when there is an invisible unit nearby, do men with flamers and blast weapons refuse to fire them? Surely these would be the absolute best weapons for locating an invisible unit?

Good point. One could argue, however that while the player knows the location of the unit by looking at the (obviously not invisible) models, the commander "in game" or the unit would not know where to place their shots, even the general direction or distance might be totally wrong.

 Murenius wrote:

 vipoid wrote:

I mean, it's not even as if the affect fits the fluff. e.g. why, when there is an invisible unit nearby, do men with flamers and blast weapons refuse to fire them? Surely these would be the absolute best weapons for locating an invisible unit?

Good point. One could argue, however that while the player knows the location of the unit by looking at the (obviously not invisible) models, the commander "in game" or the unit would not know where to place their shots, even the general direction or distance might be totally wrong.

But they at least know they're there as indicated by being able to Snap Shot at them.

 Murenius wrote:

Good point. One could argue, however that while the player knows the location of the unit by looking at the (obviously not invisible) models, the commander "in game" or the unit would not know where to place their shots, even the general direction or distance might be totally wrong.

Except that they have enough of an idea of the unit's position to target them with regular shooting.

In which case, Flamers and Blasts remain the best weapons because an indirect hit can still inflict damage.

Hell, I'd have thought flamers would be perfect - since they cover a wide area and you should be able to see the flames flow around the invisible bodies (or, even better, set them on fire) - thus highlighting them for the rest of your squads to fire at.

Captyn_Bob wrote:
The best counter I can see is imperial knights. Stomp cares not you rolls to hit, and if you roll a six, they vanish.

ya... I definitely forgot about that in a recent tournament. I made several mistakes actually...

silly tournament allowed Lords of War and all unbound.
my stupid idea for a list was...

Transcendent C'tan
Seer Council on bikes with Baron

his list was

Kustom Stompa (even more broken than invisibility)
bunch of lootas and some grots

long story short... I screwed up my deployment and the c'tan was too far away. i didn't want to waste his shots on the stompa knowing that it wouldn't go down with its 12 HP and it's invul save. (I couldnt get into D range).
I knew the Stompa was going to kill my c'tan.. baron broke off and hid on objective out of line of site.

the c'tan died... my seer council shrieked most of his other Orks off the board.

despite my big guy going down... i was still confident that I could take the game with the council.

then my mistake... I forgot that I didn't have hit and run without baron :(

so I allow myself to get into assault with the stompa.... 2 turns nothing happens.
last turn of the game he rolls the 6. council disappears. tabled.

the awesome part was that I'd killed his lootas all off by the time he killed my c'tan.
the first time he tried to target me with the stompa and I told him he couldnt was so awesome.

the council bounced around completely unimpeded. shooting, casting, harrassing. a smarter player could have easily won the game with the council and invisibility. the only way he could damage me at that point was combat.

so yes.... stomping does work. painfully lol.

 easysauce wrote:
if they had made snap shots only -2 to BS... that would have fixed this,and sooooo many other things.

but noooooo, you orks have the same chance to hit snap shots as the best shot assassin in the galaxy...

Don't hate on the orks haven't they suffered enough at the hands of Matt ward and gw..

Zimko wrote:

 Murenius wrote:

 vipoid wrote:

I mean, it's not even as if the affect fits the fluff. e.g. why, when there is an invisible unit nearby, do men with flamers and blast weapons refuse to fire them? Surely these would be the absolute best weapons for locating an invisible unit?

Good point. One could argue, however that while the player knows the location of the unit by looking at the (obviously not invisible) models, the commander "in game" or the unit would not know where to place their shots, even the general direction or distance might be totally wrong.

But they at least know they're there as indicated by being able to Snap Shot at them.

Then here's the matter of indirect fire weapons that can fire even when they can't see the enemy which now cannot fire because they cannot see the enemy?

Dumbest rule made imo. I hold out hope that they will see this and FAQ to require attackers use WS1/BS1.

Was discussing this with my group today. We decided that flamers should get D3 hits on an invisible unit like they do on overwatch, not full hits.

Does invisibility go away after a unit has been hit, similar to illuminating a unit in night fighting?

Yeah, as a Necron player we can't reliably Deny anything....ever. But, I did quickly learn the first time I played against the new Invis is that you shoot it with Tesla. There you go. An Eldar player got Invis on an Autarch, Farseer and Dark Reapers. Needless to say after two rounds of 2 different night scythes shooting, I took out most of them.

Well, we kina know tesla is changing in the upcoming codex to not work that way anymore though, and not to grant bonus hits on 6 if its a snap shot. so that won't last long.
But gloom prisons and the such will likely get buffed to be stronger anti-psyker tools.

Terminal-no, it does not go away.

So if the problem with invisibility is grav-star or daemonnette-rend-star, isn't the answer get yourself a bunker or three?
S4 or less rending, and grav weapons can't hurt buildings.

Yay! I'm totally immune to your invisible star.
Fortress(es) of redemption here I come!

-Matt