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Well the cheapest is just the 2 acolytes and a psyker hanging out on some rear objective.

You can take six of them for 108 points, keep them in cover and liberally go to ground, roll on Telepathy for each and they could even be serious threats to anyone within 18-24 inches.

This is what I'm going to try as soon as I kitbash together some distinctive looking Inquisitorial psykers. Some elite GK elements (Dreadknights, Draigo and some Paladins maybe?) to go hold forth and a half dozen Coteaz objective holders in the rear feeding warp charges.

 RancidHate wrote:
To Matt: what you quoted from that codex in no way implies that an opposing unit cannot buff itself. It very clearly means that the - Psyker's - squad cannot be buffed, de-buffed, or shot at by witchfire.

yeah, like that DE special character that is immune to psykic powers, yet still dies via ID by force weapons. The force weapons aren't affecting her or her unit, they are affecting the wielders weapon.

Well I might just have to get it from codex grey knights then. Because it is different wording in codex inquisition. Sounds like it will probably be FAQed eventually but until then, rock it.

Tbh all this sillyness with Psychic powers still doesn't stop a massive fearless block of boys from charging up the field and tarpitting/killing whatever it is that's the problem. Unless the unit that has invisibility is a close combat monster/unit with 10+ attacks per turn, they aren't going to be making a dent in the game for at least another couple of turns. The only problem I can really see is casting invisibility on something that can't be held down, like a titan. But then, if someone honestly thinks that a pick up game is fair when one side is running a revenant they need their head checking.

As a Tau/Ork player, this new edition is going to be a bit of a rollercoaster for a while until I figure out how to deal with the deamon spam. I think tag team Markerlight units (and a lot of them) will be the key to clearing off invisibility, as they can pretty much do what they do with flyers, and just stack bs until the power is basically pointless. Deamon spam however, is another kettle of fish. Why haven't GW limited the pskyer pool? Surely that would fix a lot of this abuse anyway.

 Leth wrote:

 PrinceRaven wrote:
It takes roughly all of my dice to deny a single WC 3 power provided I roll well and they only got 3 4+s.
And then my opponent just uses Invisibility again with a different psyker.

Except you cant cast from or on to the same unit with the same blessing. So unless he has two units you are worried about it doesnt work that way.

Where do you find the rule that says you cannot cast the same power on a unit if the first one failed?

Sorry, I meant from a unit. only. I got stuck on seer councils

Fragile wrote:

 Leth wrote:

 PrinceRaven wrote:
It takes roughly all of my dice to deny a single WC 3 power provided I roll well and they only got 3 4+s.
And then my opponent just uses Invisibility again with a different psyker.

Except you cant cast from or on to the same unit with the same blessing. So unless he has two units you are worried about it doesnt work that way.

Where do you find the rule that says you cannot cast the same power on a unit if the first one failed?

Oh I think I know the answer to this one. [clears throat]. Nowhere?

Edit - ninja'd. We'll not even. Stupid phone didn't refresh the page lol.

I'm sorry, I play tzeentch deamons so I will deal with invisibility the same way I deal with flyers, flick fire spam and vector strike... Hammer of wrath will do the trick too. Also you know, fire a flame template at it indirectly.

Screamer's slashing attacks also work fine against invisible models. And no cover.

Ouroboros0977 wrote:
I'm sorry, I play tzeentch deamons so I will deal with invisibility the same way I deal with flyers, flick fire spam and vector strike... Hammer of wrath will do the trick too. Also you know, fire a flame template at it indirectly.

I also play Tzeentch Daemons, and I'll deal with Invisibility or Fortune by throwing all of my 30 dispell dice at it.

 RancidHate wrote:
To Matt: what you quoted from that codex in no way implies that an opposing unit cannot buff itself. It very clearly means that the - Psyker's - squad cannot be buffed, de-buffed, or shot at by witchfire.

Odd, I thought it meant what it says, cannot be affected in any way.
I totally believe it will get FAQ'd or rewritten to do what the codex inquisition says, but that's what it says now.

As for invisibility, I'd say the nullrod squad ignores it; because its a psychic power affects my unit.
Invisibility may target you, but it directly affects me.
Where as if you had a Telekine Dome, Fireshield or Forewarning up, it's isn't affecting me, you aren't changing my units action; I'd shoot at any unit with one of those blessings the exact same way I'd fire on a unit without one of those blessings.

If you want to know how stupid invisibility is, you just need to watch a death company dreadnought (which now scores!), drop pod into the backfield, step out, and turn invisible. Oh, and he's got claws.
I had half an army running away from that thing. Was great fun until the Storm Raven entered play, and I have an even better target to make invisible.

Ok Matt that's enough, Invisibility affects what happens to the unit it is cast on, it does not directly affect the unit with the Null Rod. Now you're just trying to tell all the posters on this forum that 2+2=5.

I used Invisibility last night.

Kept my five spawn alive for the entire game even though they shunned cover like a cat to water.

Be'Lakor did peril twice however, and almost fell into the Warp mind.

My anti invisibility units are a conscript squad with inquisitor with the psyocculum re-rolling plus frfsrf or a squad of wyverns and walk the blast over. Just try and get the first blast that hits the unit to hit the psyker first (all wounds are taken from the first blast going out).

 HawaiiMatt wrote:
As for invisibility, I'd say the nullrod squad ignores it; because its a psychic power affects my unit.
Invisibility may target you, but it directly affects me.

No, it indirectly effects you. Just as an invulnerable buff on an enemy unit indirectly effects you.

Invisibility + Cursed Earth + Endurance on a full unit of Khorne Dogs + Karnak is fairly nasty.

Not that it's something I'd probably do, but can't a tank shock hit an Invis unit? Granted they'll probably have LD10 and not really care, but it's something that isn't effected, right? Don't have my BRB on me and I never tank shock, so I can't say with any certainty if it's even a viable attack.

Invisibility isn't a guarantee, sure, but there are armies that can abuse the hell out of it with significant ease. Guard is my army and to quote another Dakka member, "I'll just use the power, 'We roll more shooting dice than you.'."

RE: Null Rod Debate, I think the wording of the Inquisitor Codex entry makes it fairly clear that GK codex entry was oversight. As written, the GK Null Rod would remove invisibility, but that clearly isn't intended and isn't worth arguing about.

All I can do now is load up on MSU warp charges and hope my Callidus + Karamazov Alpha Orbital can do enough damage. I think that Invisibility scales so insanely well against high point cost model armies (or at least units) that are balanced around having higher BS and fewer shots. Overall I think that all varieties of SM will be forced to reevaluate strategies in the upcoming future, particularly with the Orc update.

I knew I should've started Eldar, haha!

 RancidHate wrote:
Ok Matt that's enough, Invisibility affects what happens to the unit it is cast on, it does not directly affect the unit with the Null Rod. Now you're just trying to tell all the posters on this forum that 2+2=5.

You're coming off as a little rude; sorry if I seem to be as well.

It's pretty basic really, I've got 2 inquisitors with null rods (because I didn't run any of the special characters), both join units.
One unit fires at an enemy that doesn't have the buff, and it hits on 3+ (being BS4).
The other unit fires on the psychically buffed enemy and is forced to discard the 3+,4+ and 5+ hits, because of the psychic power.
Invisibility is affecting the shooting of the nullrod unit, and the GK nullrod currently says that it cannot be affected in any way.

You seem to be the one claiming that 3+ to hit = 6+ to hit.

Several things in the Grey Knight codex are out of date, and this is just one of them. Add it to the list of things to discuss with your opponent before the game (like the vindicares snipe ability).

RAW with GK null rod seems pretty simple. It doesn't say it makes a blessing go away, but it does say the squad with the null rod can not be affected in any way. The invisible unit stays invisible, but the null rod squad ignores invisibility because it is attempting to affect the squad with the null rod.

Next example of how a null rod works. Friendly unit casts shrouding within 6" of a null rod. Power goes off as normal, but the squad with the null rod is not affected by shrouding.

Raw is simple in this case: A hostile invisibilty and a friendly shrouding are ignored by a null rod.

 HawaiiMatt wrote:

 RancidHate wrote:
Ok Matt that's enough, Invisibility affects what happens to the unit it is cast on, it does not directly affect the unit with the Null Rod. Now you're just trying to tell all the posters on this forum that 2+2=5.

You're coming off as a little rude; sorry if I seem to be as well.

It's pretty basic really, I've got 2 inquisitors with null rods (because I didn't run any of the special characters), both join units.
One unit fires at an enemy that doesn't have the buff, and it hits on 3+ (being BS4).
The other unit fires on the psychically buffed enemy and is forced to discard the 3+,4+ and 5+ hits, because of the psychic power.
Invisibility is affecting the shooting of the nullrod unit, and the GK nullrod currently says that it cannot be affected in any way.

You seem to be the one claiming that 3+ to hit = 6+ to hit.

Several things in the Grey Knight codex are out of date, and this is just one of them. Add it to the list of things to discuss with your opponent before the game (like the vindicares snipe ability).

Does a psychic blessing which buffs the toughness of a unit get ignored by a null rod too? Because obviously two identical units (except for the null rod on one) firing on my toughness buffed squad would wound my squad different amounts.

Matt and others, since you are arguing you get to ignore a buff on another unit, I am wondering where you draw the line. Do you ignore all buffs (you'd be consistent but absurd). Or just this one in particular (illogical and absurd).


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 schadenfreude wrote:
Raw is simple in this case: A hostile invisibilty and a friendly shrouding are ignored by a null rod.

Something is simple around here, that's for sure, but not this.

So every psychic buff is ignored by a null rod, because every buff, one way or another in some way would indirectly effect the null rod toting unit if said null rod toting unit decides to interact with the psychically buffed unit. That's your argument. Because if that isn't your argument you are picking and choosing where null rod does and does not work which means you are just being incredibly inconsistent. So please tell me if what I wrote is your actual argument.

Actually i think there is a difference between the two.
In case of fortune or toughness boost, or save boost, it is really the stats of the target that are affected, so they should keep it.
In the case of invisibility you do not improve a stat or improve anything on the target, you disable your opponent's ability to shoot at you

For me you have three way to look at it :
- Null rod lets you ignore everything at all (including stat buff as you mentionned)
- Null rod lets you ignore everything that has an effect on YOUR rolls (so to shoot/wound) but lets you keep improved saves (as they are the ennemies rolls)
- Null rod is crap and dont do anything

sleekid wrote:
Actually i think there is a difference between the two.
In case of fortune or toughness boost, or save boost, it is really the stats of the target that are affected, so they should keep it.
In the case of invisibility you do not improve a stat or improve anything on the target, you disable your opponent's ability to shoot at you.

Assertions don't arguments make. Increasing toughness makes it harder to wound that unit. Decreasing chances to hit that unit makes it harder to wound that unit. If either psychic buff is used what's the difference? None. The outcome, attacking unit wounds psychic unit less, is the same. That would fall under the silly "any way" umbrella wouldn't it? Of course it would. "Any way" is after all "any way" lol.

Also note that it is claimed by others here that null rod would ignore shrouding. Which improves cover save of the target. But apparently you disagree. Looks like there are splinter factions now in Team Absurd Rules Lawyers!

Someone mentioned HoW which is great for NobBikers along with DeffRollas. Assuming the new Codex has them, D6 Str 10 auto-hits in the movement phase? Any idea how that would work? The only "targeting" you're doing is with the Tank Shocking vehicle? The Deffrolla is a side effect, not a weapon.

@Super Newb : Thanks for calling me Team Absurd Rules Lawyers because i expressed MY opinion on the subject.

Am i not entitled to my opinion just as you are?

What i am saying (i might need to clarify) is that rules currently need a FaQ on the topic.
- RaW it seems that with null rod you would ignore it all
- I would however not play it totally like that and only ignore the effects that modify your dice rolls (so to hit/wound) but not those to save for instance
- I see that there are different opinions (like yours) so i added the third choice

So does a null rod unit ignore summoned daemons? After all, that would be them being affected by a psychic power.

"Any way" gets dumb really fast.

This discussion is better suited for YMDC.

In either case, are there any other units that can potentially deal with Invisibility? I like the deffrolla idea.

Zimko wrote:
This discussion is better suited for YMDC.

In either case, are there any other units that can potentially deal with Invisibility? I like the deffrolla idea.

Well, GKs should have no problem with invis dealing. They can use all of their WCH, which they have plenty, to deny the power (example - 14 dice is over 70.40% to deny invis, 17 Dice: 80.17% )

As for other codices, i dont know...

To Matt: if I sound rude, good, I intended to (sfhort of name calling and anything personal of course)

To kid: Newb is calling your absurd because your opinion with a pretty clear-cut MIS-interpretation of fact.

Y'all would argue that the Null Rod squad would still get cover saves if I buffed some other ally with Perfect Timing? Or that the Null Rod squad would still wound on 4s instead 5s I I buffed one of my squads with Endurance?

NO!

1. The benefits of the Null Rod are many but, denying opponent buffs aren't one of them. Null Rod, like DE Lady Malys, ignores Maledictions and Witchfire TARGETED at the Null Rod squad (which includes Beam and Nova witchfire, even though they would otherwise auto hit).

2. Until GW strictly states, 'enemy squads do NOT receive the benefits of psychic blessings against attacks made by a squad with a Null Rod user and, psychic blessings (e.g. improved BS, I, etc..) do not manifest against squads withh Null Rod users.' #1 applies.

Got that? Until #2 takes place, #1 applies.

Zimko wrote:
This discussion is better suited for YMDC.

I agree. Matt asked this question a week ago in ymdc. But then never replied when someone gave him a counter argument. Of what about summoned demons. Thread was just two posts lol.

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/597133.page


Automatically Appended Next Post:

sleekid wrote:
@Super Newb : Thanks for calling me Team Absurd Rules Lawyers because i expressed MY opinion on the subject.

Am i not entitled to my opinion just as you are?

What i am saying (i might need to clarify) is that rules currently need a FaQ on the topic.
- RaW it seems that with null rod you would ignore it all
- I would however not play it totally like that and only ignore the effects that modify your dice rolls (so to hit/wound) but not those to save for instance
- I see that there are different opinions (like yours) so i added the third choice

I don't think you thought "ignore it all" through. If "any way" in the null rod rull means ignoring more than buffs, debuffs and psychic shooting on the unit holding the null rod, well then, you'd basically have to FORGE THE NARRATIVE and create a "MIRROR UNIVERSE" and play two games. One for the unit with the null rod, one for every other unit in your army. You want to know why? Because a null rod ignores summoned demons. It ignores when your opponent levitates themself closer to you and then gets in shooting range. And so on. So play the turn once pretending the demons aren't there, then play it again when they are. Because the null rod unit created an alternate universe


That's Matt's argument led to its logical but absurd conclusion.