Okay, here's where I'm at on this.

Space Marines/Eldar are Comes the Apocalypse (CtA) allies with Chaos Daemons.

CtA Allies cannot deploy within 12" of one another.

Conjured units arrive by Deep Strike.

Deep Strike is a form of deployment. (The rules for it reference 'deploying' by Deep Strike several times.)

No Conjuration has a range greater than 12".

Therefore, Daemons cannot be summoned by Space Marines/Eldar.

Have I missed a step? Someone told me that this was on par with the 'Flying Monstrous Creatures in 6th didn't have Relentless OR Smash because the comma was missing' argument. But the RAW seemed pretty clear to me, and it DOES kind of make sense from a fluff perspective.

Is there a rule I've missed somewhere? Something that removes the 12" no-man's-land from CtA allies after the pre-game deployment? Something that suspends it for summoned daemons? I know it's a new book, but I can't turn up anything.

summoned units (along with every other sort of model) are counted as part of the faction derived from the codex they are found in. Daemons are even used as a specific example of this in the relevant rule.

Ergo, yeah eldar and space marines summoned daemon's auto-mishap. (due to the interaction of being unable to be deployed within 12" of the psyker 'and' the deep strike rules themselves)

 Neorealist wrote:
summoned units (along with every other sort of model) are counted as part of the faction derived from the codex they are found in. Daemons are even used as a specific example of this in the relevant rule.

Ergo, yeah eldar and space marines summoned daemon's auto-mishap. (due to the interaction of being unable to be deployed within 12" of the psyker 'and' the deep strike rules themselves)

I don't think the Deep Strike rules specify a mishap in that instance. I just think it's an illegal deployment all around. (Can't be done.)

So gate of infinity and veil of darkness are deployment as well

 CrownAxe wrote:
So gate of infinity and veil of darkness are deployment as well

Yep. And you wouldn't be able to do either of those within 12" of a CtA ally either. Unless there's something I missed...

This is true, if you view the list of possible options in the deep striking section that cause mishaps as all inclusive than you are left with the unit being unable to deploy in general.

In any case, the answer to the OPs question is that the unit is prevented from working properly in his scenario because of the new 7th ruleset for allies.

Count Adhemar from the Dark City forums summed it up nicely;
"Editor is a purely ceremonial role at Games Workshop."

You missed something.

"the new unit then arrives via Deep Strike, within the power’s maximum range" (496 Digital BRB) They arrive, they are not deployed. Deployment has very specific rules and all of them occur before turn 1, Conjurations happen well after deployment, and do not say they are deployment, so they are not.

Also, the Desperate allies rules are talking about deployment at the start of the game. So you missed the context there as well as the unit not being deployed.

"but cannot deploy within 12” of each other when they are deploying for battle."(704 Digital BRB) That restriction is only when deploying for battle.

and the Nail in the coffin...

"The only thing that remains to be done is the deployment of the two armies. If you are using a Warhammer 40,000 mission, it will tell you how to deploy the armies taking part in the battle." (715 Digital BRB)

You deploy for battle before the game begins and before the first turn as a future section dictates.

Therefore SM and Eldar can summon demons just fine.

Okay...just playing Devil's Advocate...why then do you think that the Deep Strike rules continuously and throughout refer to the placement of models via Deep Strike as 'deploying' them?

 Jimsolo wrote:
Okay...just playing Devil's Advocate...why then do you think that the Deep Strike rules continuously and throughout refer to the placement of models via Deep Strike as 'deploying' them?

Because that is what deep strike normally is, a way for units to deploy since that is what reserves is for. Its just typical games workshop writing to be vague and non-specific about things (like how they'll refer to blasts markers as templates but that doesn't make them ignore cover)

Okay, so how did the daemons get onto the board if they DIDN'T deploy?

I'm fine if this is something like the Drop Pods in Reserve issue, where we're all going to agree to play it one way even though it isn't RAW. I'm just trying to figure out what the RAW, and what the RAI, are in this case.

Because "deploy" is an english word that fits in that situation. As well as being the process at the beginning of the game.

Think of Level in DnD.... different uses, different levels.

 Jimsolo wrote:
Okay, so how did the daemons get onto the board if they DIDN'T deploy?

I'm fine if this is something like the Drop Pods in Reserve issue, where we're all going to agree to play it one way even though it isn't RAW. I'm just trying to figure out what the RAW, and what the RAI, are in this case.

Irrelevant - they are nto deploying at the preparing for battle stage, meaning the 12" rule does not apply.

Red herring. While units do deploy prior to the battle starting, they also deploy as part of deep-striking onto the board. The two are not mutually exclusive like your statement indicates.
"...arrival of all Deep Striking units as specified in the rules for Reserves and then deploy them as follows..."

'Deploying for battle' is not a rules-defined term. While there is a 'Preparing for Battle' section and it does indeed include a 'Deployment' step, there are other ways in which a unit can be deployed too.

Not a red herring at all.

Deploy in general vs deploy at a specific time. That time, in context, is the general deployment of your army.

An argument ignoring context is an unsupportable argument

'for battle' doesn't not explicitly indicate a specific time-frame. There is no 'for battle' turn, phase, or any other indication of rule-specific sequence inherent in the phrase,

Incorrect. "deploying for battle" indicates before turn 1, i.e. when everything else is deploying. To indicate any time during the game it would say "during battle" or similar.

Can you indicate which rule you believe indicates that? (that 'deploying for battle' = 'before turn 1') As so far as I've been able to determine there is no such rule which supports your contention.

Context, and language used. As there is no 40k defined term, that is all that is needed. You cannot deploy "For" battle if the battle is already underway.

I have explained my reasonsing, cite your reasoning why you can ignore the context of the rule, and decide that this is after the side has already deployed.

I can ignore what you say the context is (which is an inference at best given there is nothing specific to equate the two) in favour of a literal interpretation of what the rule actually states.

The rule indicates 'come the apocalypse' factions cannot deploy for battle within 12" of each other. Given there is no 'explicit' reason to consider 'for battle' to represent any one of a few different time-frames deployment can take place and there are a few ways in which models can be deployed, a conservative reading of the rules-as-written (aka, not adding anything that isn't actually explicit) would apply it to all of them.

Ah, so you will ignore the context the sentence is embedded in, and apply it to to the game as a whole.

Deploying for battle != deploying during battle. The words are important here, and youre ignoring them.

Possibly a US-style English thing?

Not being American I wouldn't know what sort of inference you believe I'm missing, but I can assure you I understand you quite clearly.

you believe the word 'for' implies some sort of chronological sequence. There is no particularly compelling support for this, not in the plain English definition of the word, nor much more relevantly in the rules of 40k itself. It is pure supposition. 40k already has a rules-specific phrase to indicate before battle has commenced, it's written as 'Before the Game Begins' and is certainly not used within the context of either the 'come the apocalypse' rule nor the 'deep strike' one.

nosferatu1001 wrote:
[...]Deploying for battle != deploying during battle. The words are important here, and youre ignoring them.[...]

If you are deploying in turn 5, are you not deploying for battle? Are you deploying for tea? Horseback riding?

you are deploying during battle.

Neo - again, the context i.e. more than jus tthe one word youre hung up on, indicates otherwise. You can claim this is unimportant, bu tthe plain reading hAS to take into account the setting.

I'm sorry, but the semantic difference your stance is hinging on between 'for' and 'during' just has no specific support to be found within the 40k rules. A unit can be said to be arriving 'for' battle 'during' (or 'midway through', or even 'after' for that matter) a battle has commenced and still have the speaker be completely grammatically and logically correct.

Why do you claim summoned daemons are allies?
Come the apocalypse is for allied forces, bound by the rules for adding an allied detachment.
This whole discussion is absurd.

 Fayric wrote:
Why do you claim summoned daemons are allies?
Come the apocalypse is for allied forces, bound by the rules for adding an allied detachment.
This whole discussion is absurd.

Yep. And if not being able to summon those creatures was the intent of GW, why did they allow such armies to roll on Malefic?

Neo - not in the context that the whole setting is in, however. That is clearly, to my plain reading at least, discussing pre-game actions, such as initial deployment of forces. Not during game actions. I am not hanging on one, single word, so maybe your rebuttal can stop focussing on it? Liek your argument, it is removing context.

Summoned daemons have a faction, but I can't see what detachment they belong to. CTA is for detachments, not sure it will affect summoned things as summoned things are not placed into a detachment.

 Jimsolo wrote:
Okay...just playing Devil's Advocate...why then do you think that the Deep Strike rules continuously and throughout refer to the placement of models via Deep Strike as 'deploying' them?

Deep Strike does refer to itself as deployment because usually a unit is in reserves and deploys via deep strike.

But the Desperate allies rules are talking about deployment at the start of the game, not about using gate of infinity, the Stormraven or Vendetta's DS rules or conjuration spells.

Deployment has very specific rules and all of them occur before turn 1.

 Neorealist wrote:
summoned units (along with every other sort of model) are counted as part of the faction derived from the codex they are found in. Daemons are even used as a specific example of this in the relevant rule.

Ergo, yeah eldar and space marines summoned daemon's auto-mishap. (due to the interaction of being unable to be deployed within 12" of the psyker 'and' the deep strike rules themselves)

thats just made up...

quote the page that literally states summoned units belong to the detachment that summoned them...


because pg 119 literally tells you to assign all detachments PRE GAME.


if you intend to assign detachment rules mid game, in a direct violation of doing them pre game as the rules actually state,

then you must at least follow ALL the detachment rules, not just the ones you want to follow.

 Vector Strike wrote:

 Fayric wrote:
Why do you claim summoned daemons are allies?
Come the apocalypse is for allied forces, bound by the rules for adding an allied detachment.
This whole discussion is absurd.

Yep. And if not being able to summon those creatures was the intent of GW, why did they allow such armies to roll on Malefic?

Not all Malefic spells involve the summoning of daemons

 easysauce wrote:

 Neorealist wrote:
summoned units (along with every other sort of model) are counted as part of the faction derived from the codex they are found in. Daemons are even used as a specific example of this in the relevant rule.

Ergo, yeah eldar and space marines summoned daemon's auto-mishap. (due to the interaction of being unable to be deployed within 12" of the psyker 'and' the deep strike rules themselves)

thats just made up...

quote the page that literally states summoned units belong to the detachment that summoned them...


because pg 119 literally tells you to assign all detachments PRE GAME.


if you intend to follow detachment rules mid game, in a direct violation of doing them pre game as the rules actually state,

then you must at least follow ALL the detachment rules, not just the ones you want to follow.

I think you're misunderstanding him, to me it appears he's saying that Deamons that are summoned are still from the Deamons Faction.

he claimed summoned units are part of the detachment that summoned them,

with no RAW backing to support it,

and RAW to disprove it, pg 119,

summoned units arrive too late in the game to be given a faction at all... they are not primary, and they are not allied... they are detachment less units that are scoring, again, as the BRB actually states...

Iirc after deployment using the 12 inch rule they have to stay greater than 6 inches away to avoid the complete shutdown ie roll a d6 get a one can't do anything.

So on initial deployment they have to be more than 12 inches away but after initial deployment it's only 6 inches. Summon away.

Look at the paragraph below the Conjuration sub-heading in the Psychic Phase section. It says that conjured creatures arrive from reserves [for all rules purposes]. How can something arrive from reserves? It has to be deployed in reserves. So, what is happening is that the daemons are conjured, which is when they are actually deployed, in reserves and then immediately afterwards arrive on the battlefield via the deepstrike rules.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also, even if the OP's argument does apply, only the Summoning, Incursion, and, in certain cases, both the Sacrifice & Possession spells would be restricted anyways. The first two arrive via deepstrike within a certain range so they fit the parameters of the OP's argument. However, the other two spells present the possibility of there being NO Eldar/SM models alive within range of the summon. Why is this? It is because a model immediately suffers an wound with no saves allowed in the former, which results in removal from the table, and in the latter the psycher is immediately removed. Immediately means before anything else. So, these spells could leave no model in the area that would interfere with the OP's version of the summoning rules.

 easysauce wrote:
he claimed summoned units are part of the detachment that summoned them,

with no RAW backing to support it,

and RAW to disprove it, pg 119,

summoned units arrive too late in the game to be given a faction at all... they are not primary, and they are not allied... they are detachment less units that are scoring, again, as the BRB actually states...

It's interesting how you can read what I said and infer the exact opposite of my intent.

B0b Mariey is correct in his idea of what I said.

What I said (and meant) is that summoned daemons are part of the daemons faction. The rule I used to support this is part of the 'Army List' rule: "...whilst all units in Codex: Chaos Daemons belong to the Chaos Daemons Faction..."

At no point do I address what detachment it is considered to be from. Indeed I'm following another thread with great interest that is discussing exactly that.

nosferatu1001 wrote:
you are deploying during battle.

Neo - again, the context i.e. more than jus tthe one word youre hung up on, indicates otherwise. You can claim this is unimportant, bu tthe plain reading hAS to take into account the setting.

Emphasis mine.

Okay, I'm not trying to be argumentative, but this is what's hanging ME up. Deep Strike consistently refers to the act of arriving via Deep Strike as deployment. And CtA specifies that allies of this relationship cannot deploy within 12" of a CtA ally. The CtA rules do NOT specify a time frame. They only mention deployment, not pre-game deployment. So the restriction should still apply.

So are the summoned daemons part of an Allied Detachment? If no, why are you trying to apply Allies rules to them?

Because the ally rules (in 7th) key off of which faction the different units are from, not which detachment they are considered to be a part of?

 Neorealist wrote:
Because the ally rules (in 7th) key off of which faction the different units are from, not which detachment they are considered to be a part of?

Disagree. Just looked at the book and those rules all seem to refer to allied units. Which summoned daemons are not. Never said they were not Caemon faction, just that they are not Allies. What detachment are they? Don't know, don't care. They're not Allies so Allies rules need not be applied.

Feel free to disagree if you like, you are as entitled to your opinion as any. However I can only feel if you had really reviewed the section in question you'd see the word 'faction' used to describe what the interaction between different units in a army list is determined by several times and in a couple of different ways. Here is just one quote: "...The Allies Matrix below shows the levels of alliance between units that have different Factions in the same army..."

 Neorealist wrote:
Feel free to disagree if you like, you are as entitled to your opinion as any. However I can only feel if you had really reviewed the section in question you'd see the word 'faction' used to describe what the interaction between different units in a army list is determined by several times and in a couple of different ways. Here is just one quote: "...The Allies Matrix below shows the levels of alliance between units that have different Factions in the same army..."

You are correct. My apologies. In my defense, I was at work and while my rulebook was in the car, I didn't really have time to peruse it thoroughly,
Still irrelevant to whether or not the daemons can be summoned. We have a general rule (Come the Apoc) telling us they cannot be deployed within 12". We have a more specific rule telling us that we MUST place them within 12". Guess which one wins? Yep, the more specific.

I don't necessarily think the psychic powers are more or less specific than the allies matrix. Both apply in only certain situations (you chose to take X in your army list).

Plus I don't see why the rules don't work together. You must deploy within 12". You can't deploy within 12". A mishap is suffered. Move on.

This is no different than if you scattered into impassible terrain and therefore can't be deployed. In fact, I would say that if the daemons scattered so that they weren't being deployed within 12" of your troops, you would be good to go. So lay them down, roll the scatter. If you roll a hit, then that's within 12" and they suffer a mishap. If you scatter further away, everything is fine.

Why can't all the rules apply?

All of this babble about not being able to summon daemons because of come the apocalypse, defining what deployment means, and all this -edited by insaniak. Please do not bypass the language filter- useless!

Conjuration is not a deployment but a place effect. The place effect is by deep striking.

Conjuration is a type of psychic power which is explained separately from other text(s).

The METHOD of CONJURING DAEMONS is by deep striking. This is not to be confused with Deep Strike Deployment and Initial Deployment. Deep Strike deployment is when you set aside some of your dudes in reserve to deep strike. Initial deployment are the dudes you deploy when it is your rotation or turn to do so (BEFORE THE GAME). Conjuring is not deployment but a place effect. These models are not set aside to be deep struck later in the game. They are spontaneously generated at the whim of a successful psychic test.

Allies and the different levels of Allies (battle bros, come the aporkalips, etc) have no effect on the Conjuration of Daemons. Allies only has influence, if units are PRESELECTED BEFORE THE GAME, ON THE FORCE ROSTER, AS AN ALLIED DETACHMENT. IN THIS PARTICULAR CASE, SUMMONED DAEMONS DO NOT COUNT AS ALLIES, BUT RATHER THEY'RE TREATED AS THEY'RE FROM THE SAME FACTION/CODEX THAT SUMMONED THEM. If it did, why did GW give armies access to summon Daemons from the come the aporkalips armies? Seems like a waste of ink and work effort to me lol.

My raging is done.

Right.

Couple of points:
1) There is no rules specific relevance attached to a 'place effect' ,whatever that is, or at least I cannot find it if there is. Perhaps you can clarify where you are getting that idea from?

2) The deepstrike rules themselves mention that they are used to deploy models, it is not something folk are making up just to vex you.

3) Wether something is in an allied detachment or not (or counts as being in one) doesn't really matter in 7th edition beyond the detachments' troops obtaining the 'Objective Secured' USR and a few restrictions. The new rules to determine what type of ally a unit counts as are determined by factions now.

4) GW has always taken 'casual' (read nigh-non-existent) approach to copy-editing and proofing. It would not surprise me in the slightest if they gave daemonology-malefic access to models which would in fact be unable to use most of the powers found within. Want another example? Check out Zogwort vis-à-vis witchfire psychic abilities.

 Neorealist wrote:
Right.
4) GW has always taken 'casual' (read nigh-non-existent) approach to copy-editing and proofing. It would not surprise me in the slightest if they gave daemonology-malefic access to models which would in fact be unable to use most of the powers found within. Want another example? Check out Zogwort vis-à-vis witchfire psychic abilities.

I highly doubt this since beyond the rules there is also the fact that they took the time to add it to every single codex FAQ except for Grey Knights and Tyranids and changed the CtA rules in this edition strictly because of summoning capabilities.

Deployment only happens at the beginning of the game and CtA only effects "set up" and Battle Forged army selection, not on going playing. Summoned daemons can be used by any army without regard to the CtA rules.

Deployment is a complete phase on it's own prior to the game starting. Refer to your rules summary, and sequence of play to see this CLEARLY spelled out. Yes, they sometimes use the term deploying in the rules (such as when arriving via deep strike) they are using the term to mean place, but this is not deployment as defined by the Allied Rules. Deployment is three relative things: deployment on the table, deployment in reserve, and special deployment such as infiltrators. This is the only time the new CtA rules applies.

Also, while GW may in fact miss some things, they would not miss something this major both in the rules and almost every dang FAQ. Use some common sense people.

For those hung up on the "deployed" vs. "deployed for battle", lets look at the inverse:

Let's say you take an army that includes Chaos Space Marines and CtA Dark Angel allies containing Belial and a squad of terminators. Would it be legal to deploy the CSM army and start the game, and on first turn have the Dark Angels deep strike (I.e. deploy) within 12" of their CSM allies?

Would deployment not be when they first arrive on the board? Regardless of what phase of the game it is in?

culsandar wrote:
For those hung up on the "deployed" vs. "deployed for battle", lets look at the inverse:

Let's say you take an army that includes Chaos Space Marines and CtA Dark Angel allies containing Belial and a squad of terminators. Would it be legal to deploy the CSM army and start the game, and on first turn have the Dark Angels deep strike (I.e. deploy) within 12" of their CSM allies?

Good example. Yes, it would be legal.

culsandar wrote:
For those hung up on the "deployed" vs. "deployed for battle", lets look at the inverse:

Let's say you take an army that includes Chaos Space Marines and CtA Dark Angel allies containing Belial and a squad of terminators. Would it be legal to deploy the CSM army and start the game, and on first turn have the Dark Angels deep strike (I.e. deploy) within 12" of their CSM allies?

Would deployment not be when they first arrive on the board? Regardless of what phase of the game it is in?

100% legal to have your deep striking units end up within 12 inches of your CTA unit that have been deployed previously.

culsandar wrote:
For those hung up on the "deployed" vs. "deployed for battle", lets look at the inverse:

Let's say you take an army that includes Chaos Space Marines and CtA Dark Angel allies containing Belial and a squad of terminators. Would it be legal to deploy the CSM army and start the game, and on first turn have the Dark Angels deep strike (I.e. deploy) within 12" of their CSM allies?

Would deployment not be when they first arrive on the board? Regardless of what phase of the game it is in?

Nope. 100% illegal deployment. (Of the Dark Angels, that is.) Because the deploying Dark Angels are still bound by the CtA restrictions.

Deploy can mean more than one thing, there's too much focus on exclusive definitions of the word.

coredump wrote:
Because "deploy" is an english word that fits in that situation. As well as being the process at the beginning of the game.

Think of Level in DnD.... different uses, different levels.

My level 5 Wizard cast a level 2 spell at the highest level of the castle while standing on level ground.

Explains everything! The use of deploy likely does not mean only one thing in terms of the rules.

By this logic you could only ever deep strike into your own deployment zone

We're all ignoring the fact that they CAN however scatter, which would be totally ok if that means your deamons stay clear of your marines.

 Jimsolo wrote:

culsandar wrote:
For those hung up on the "deployed" vs. "deployed for battle", lets look at the inverse:

Let's say you take an army that includes Chaos Space Marines and CtA Dark Angel allies containing Belial and a squad of terminators. Would it be legal to deploy the CSM army and start the game, and on first turn have the Dark Angels deep strike (I.e. deploy) within 12" of their CSM allies?

Would deployment not be when they first arrive on the board? Regardless of what phase of the game it is in?

Nope. 100% illegal deployment. (Of the Dark Angels, that is.) Because the deploying Dark Angels are still bound by the CtA restrictions.

It is not illegal.

as PapaSoul said, "By this logic you could only ever deep strike into your own deployment zone" which is incorrect.

You do not have to follow the deployment rules whilst deep striking.

As above. When deploying for battle you follow the restrictions, not during battle.

Deep Strike being referred to as deploying or not is irrelevant.

Summoning creatures not part of the FoC matrix of allies would imply they are not governed under such rules since they are not allies, but simply tools of the psykers themselves.

No where in the book do the rules imply summoned units are governed by allies matrices.

Unbound rules are a pure example of this, considering you could field whatever units you wanted in any way shape or form simply because they are not part of an FoC with allies.

Deploy = move troops into position for military action.

Deployment = to spread out troops so as to form an extended front or line

you ca clearly see these 2 words though similar are different. Come the apocalypses your deployment cannot be within 12 inches of each other.

when deep striking you deploy up to the max, of 12 inches. however , though it pains me to say it death reaper nailed it on the head, you deploy and with the come the apocalypses rule they can be right next to you but then because of the 6 inch rule you might not be able to act because of the keeping an eye out rule.

Anyone who can use Malific demonology can summon with no problem except the keeping an eye out rule. why must everything in 40k be spelled out like a 3rd grader could understand it.

PapaSoul wrote:
By this logic you could only ever deep strike into your own deployment zone

^ this. This point makes the rest of this discussion mute.

emmagine wrote:

PapaSoul wrote:
By this logic you could only ever deep strike into your own deployment zone

^ this. This point makes the rest of this discussion mute.

(Emphasis mine)
Perhaps you mean Moot?

What about the Hemlock?

Can it pick Daemonology in addition to?

The FAQ seems to indicate it can.

So...

It can pick Sanctic and roll Gate of Infinity and Teleport?

Hollismason wrote:
What about the Hemlock?

Can it pick Daemonology in addition to?

The FAQ seems to indicate it can.

So...

It can pick Sanctic and roll Gate of Infinity and Teleport?

it could if it was allowed to roll for powers (its always has to take terrify)

I don't think the 'deploy' from Reserves is the same as 'deploying' before the battle. Context does matter...it would help if GW got a thesaurus wouldn't it?

But I think since the Summoned Daemons all belong to the Daemons faction, if at the end of the game there isn't a proper filling of Daemons to make at least a proper Allied Detachment, then the whole army suddenly becomes Unbound and all Troops lose Objective Secured!!! Such is the price of dealing with evil warp spawn

Due to the language used, arriving from Reserves is Deployment. The act of being deployed. Whether the meant to differentiate between Deployment that happens before the start of the game and Deployment that happens in the middle of the game is debatable. Actually in the arriving From Reserves section they explicitly refer to a unit as arriving, being deployed, and moving onto the table in the same sentence. Arriving from reserves is deployment, until GW allows us to differentiate we cannot.

The Allies section tells us how units from different factions interact, by using the allies matrix.

The Factions section tells us that the units Faction is determined by its army list entry, and that is regardless of how the army is chosen. It goes on to tell us and reiterate that if it comes from that army book, it belongs to that faction.


Summoned Daemons, belonging to the Chaos daemons Faction, are deployed via conjuration which uses all of the rules for arriving from reserves via Deepsteike and requires the unit to be deployed within 12". With CTA, which is explicitly described to be in effect due to factions which again are clearly and explicitly defined, do not allow deployment within 12". CTA Summoning forces to to attempt to Deep Strike where you cannot. If after you roll scatter and at least one model cannot be placed, due to CTA restrictions, you suffer a Deep strike Mishap As the Deep Strike rules tell us how to handle just such a scenario.

That is my best RAW interpretation using the existing language of the Rules.


Edit: Since army formation and Battleforged status determination occurs beforehand, we have no permission to check if the army still maintained such organization at the end of the battle, so Summoning would not for the army to be unbound.

 Zagman wrote:
Summoned Daemons, belonging to the Chaos daemons Faction, are deployed via conjuration which uses all of the rules for arriving from reserves via Deepsteike and requires the unit to be deployed within 12". With CTA, which is explicitly described to be in effect due to factions which again are clearly and explicitly defined, do not allow deployment within 12". CTA Summoning forces to to attempt to Deep Strike where you cannot. If after you roll scatter and at least one model cannot be placed, due to CTA restrictions, you suffer a Deep strike Mishap As the Deep Strike rules tell us how to handle just such a scenario.

There are not any rules that actually say that though.

When first deploying for battle you follow the deployment restrictions, but there are no rules that tell us to follow the deployment restrictions during battle.

 DeathReaper wrote:
When first deploying for battle you follow the deployment restrictions, but there are no rules that tell us to follow the deployment restrictions during battle.

There is literally no RAW anywhere that backs this.

In fact, the rules say the opposite. Deployment restrictions are given. There are specific restrictions that apply to pre-game deployment, (found in the section on pre-game deployment) but the CtA rules do not contain any rule telling you that they apply only to one type of deployment. They just contain a blanket deployment restriction. Therefore, this restriction applies to ALL deployment, including deploying via Deep Strike.

Look at the Allies section again.

"Units that will only ally ‘Come the Apocalypse’ are treated exactly like Desperate Allies, but cannot deploy within 12” of each other when they are deploying for battle" (BRB Choosing your army section, Allies heading, CTA alliance type).

they are only restricted when "they are deploying for battle" which is done before the battle and not during it.

As above. Deploying FOR battle is not the same as deploying DURING battle.

Looking though I believe the line about deploying for battle is meant to differentiate deploying at the start of the game, and during the game.

 DeathReaper wrote:

emmagine wrote:

PapaSoul wrote:
By this logic you could only ever deep strike into your own deployment zone

^ this. This point makes the rest of this discussion mute.

(Emphasis mine)
Perhaps you mean Moot?

To be honest this discussion went mute for me when it degraded into syntax.

However the man is right, unless 7th was a grand conspiracy to destroy all deepstriking armies then obviously summoning within 12" is fine by me, over analysing the particular linguistics is giving GW far too high a standard of writing and proof-reading/play-testing for my liking.

Deploying for Battle is not the same as using Deployment rules located in Preparing for Battle. GW refers to the game and ongoing game as a Battle and attempting to infer more from what is written is wrong. If they meant for CTA to only mean initial ore game deployment they would have stated so. Even if that is what was intended, it is not what is written, quite the opposite actually.

Okay, fluff time... Imagine you're a Space Marine. You hate Daemons. Your commander decides to call in reinforcements... a pack of Daemons shows up ten feet from you.

Your immediate reaction? I'm thinking something along the lines of "Purge the Heretic".

Zagman - so you will ignore the context of the statement, and pretend it means something else?

That isnt a RAW argument.

So if I understand the OP. Since deapstriking units are being "deployed" they are still restricted by the CyA rules. So the only thing that would refute their position would be explicit writing allowing a violation of the CtA rrstritions.

Following this reasoning. No unit can ever be "deployed" outside of your deployment zone unless it is explicitly written to be exempt from the deployment zone restrictions.

Deapstrike as I remember it never says "any where on the board, including outside of your deployment zone." Nor infiltration, nor outflanking explicitly say they are exempt from any initial deployment restrictions.

The problem is explicit vs implicit RaW

All special forms of deployment above IMPLY that they are exempt from your deployment zone restrictions.

As I understand it the op is wrong.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Even better by the OP's reasoning you can never leave a transport with in 12 of a CtA because it described as "deployed"

Kyutaru wrote:
Okay, fluff time... Imagine you're a Space Marine. You hate Daemons. Your commander decides to call in reinforcements... a pack of Daemons shows up ten feet from you.

Your immediate reaction? I'm thinking something along the lines of "Purge the Heretic".

Except the unit already has its orders to attack the unit of Orks running up the flank. The commander (Librarian) tells the unit to disregard the daemons until the larger threat is taken care of...

simple summation to solve this: Advanced Versus Basic:

Basic: no CTA allies can deploy within 12"

Advanced: Cunjurations are deepstruck with in 12" before scatter etc. If after scatter they are within 12". TOUGH deal with it. Advanced rules trump basic

Again deathreaper has nailed it again. I say again deployment and deploy are not the same thing. Anyway gw says tiggy can summon so if I wanna waste him for some daemons I will.

wargamer1985 wrote:
simple summation to solve this: Advanced Versus Basic:

Basic: no CTA allies can deploy within 12"

Advanced: Cunjurations are deepstruck with in 12" before scatter etc. If after scatter they are within 12". TOUGH deal with it. Advanced rules trump basic

Saying something is "advanced", and then just making up a rule such as "advanced rules are more right" for no reason other then you say so is useless to the discussion.

 gozolve wrote:

wargamer1985 wrote:
simple summation to solve this: Advanced Versus Basic:

Basic: no CTA allies can deploy within 12"

Advanced: Cunjurations are deepstruck with in 12" before scatter etc. If after scatter they are within 12". TOUGH deal with it. Advanced rules trump basic

Saying something is "advanced", and then just making up a rule such as "advanced rules are more right" for no reason other then you say so is useless to the discussion.

He's not making up a rule. Advanced rules "win" over basic rules.

Where advanced rules apply to a specific model, they always override any contradicting basic rules.

 gozolve wrote:
Deapstrike as I remember it never says "any where on the board, including outside of your deployment zone."

Funnily enough it actually says anywhere on the table, how about that..?

I am also in the camp that reads deploying for battle to mean that, the deployment done before combat begins.

I do not really understand why some think GW would give a psyker the chance to summon daemons and then in the next sentence say that you can't do that, too bad for you.

Naw wrote:

 gozolve wrote:
Deapstrike as I remember it never says "any where on the board, including outside of your deployment zone."

Funnily enough it actually says anywhere on the table, how about that..?

I am also in the camp that reads deploying for battle to mean that, the deployment done before combat begins.

I do not really understand why some think GW would give a psyker the chance to summon daemons and then in the next sentence say that you can't do that, too bad for you.

You seem to think that I agree with the OP I do not. That sentence that you quote is an example of a rule that does not explicitly state you can brake a deployment rule but is implied and understood that it DOES allow you to. Trying to show the flaw of the OPs reasoning.

rigeld2 wrote:

 gozolve wrote:
Saying something is "advanced", and then just making up a rule such as "advanced rules are more right" for no reason other then you say so is useless to the discussion.

He's not making up a rule. Advanced rules "win" over basic rules.

Where advanced rules apply to a specific model, they always override any contradicting basic rules.

well nthis must be a first me and rigeld agreeing on something ..,.

gozolve wrote:

wargamer1985 wrote:
simple summation to solve this: Advanced Versus Basic:

Basic: no CTA allies can deploy within 12"

Advanced: Cunjurations are deepstruck with in 12" before scatter etc. If after scatter they are within 12". TOUGH deal with it. Advanced rules trump basic

Saying something is "advanced", and then just making up a rule such as "advanced rules are more right" for no reason other then you say so is useless to the discussion.

a conjuratation is by definition an advanced rule using an advanced rule set for deployment aka deepstrike and therefor trumps the basic rule of not with in 12"

Advanced vs Basic is on page 11 i think dont actually have my rulebook to hand,. as im at work, and secondly sinbce i no longer play m,arines and my only army is nids i couldnt really care either way but as writyen there is no other interpretation, except for wanna be rules lawers trying to gain an unfair advantage

So i think this is starting to get a little silly no one is willing to agrer one way or the other. I have emailed gw with this query and recommend all people with reasonable arguements do the same and we might see an faq.

I pretty sure RAI its the can summon daemons since they did it in the White Dwarf and examplea and stuff and it seems thats what they want you to do (if you can find a fluff reason) but after reading all.the posts the arguements on both sides seem valid.

So suggestion email gw wait for faq and talk it out with your gaming group and TO organises how they want it played until official ruling is made.

katana100 wrote:
So i think this is starting to get a little silly no one is willing to agrer one way or the other. I have emailed gw with this query and recommend all people with reasonable arguements do the same and we might see an faq.

I pretty sure RAI its the can summon daemons since they did it in the White Dwarf and examplea and stuff and it seems thats what they want you to do (if you can find a fluff reason) but after reading all.the posts the arguements on both sides seem valid.

So suggestion email gw wait for faq and talk it out with your gaming group and TO organises how they want it played until official ruling is made.

Oh, RAI is absolutely 100%, beyond a shadow of a doubt that it's supposed to be able to happen. Clearly, since the WD Battle Reports show loyalists summoning demons. I don't think it gets any clearer than that.

I'm just trying to find a RAW justification for it, since without one (and there is not yet a credible one that I've had a chance to confirm) this argument will apply later to ANY Deep Striking units. I wanted to start the conversation here though, since this affords us a rare opportunity to try and pick through the RAW without having to consider RAI (since we KNOW what it is).

I'll admit, I'm starting to grow concerned with GW's attitude towards FAQ's. I wouldn't hold your breath for any at this point. We may get a single FAQ for 7th ed at some point, but it looks like for the foreseeable future we're looking at one-and-done FAQs for each book to address any misprintings, omissions, or errors in the book itself (methinks this falls into the 'omission' category), plus minor updates to existing FAQs if the book in question changes some fundamental nature of the game (such as Skies of Death).

 Jimsolo wrote:
I'm just trying to find a RAW justification for it, since without one (and there is not yet a credible one that I've had a chance to confirm) this argument will apply later to ANY Deep Striking units.

Here is the RAW justification for it.

"Units that will only ally ‘Come the Apocalypse’ are treated exactly like Desperate Allies, but cannot deploy within 12” of each other when they are deploying for battle" (BRB Choosing your army section, Allies heading, CTA alliance type).

Units are only restricted when "they are deploying for battle" which is done before the battle and not during it.

That is the RAW that confirms that Space Marine or Eldar Psykers can actually do it.

 gozolve wrote:

Naw wrote:

 gozolve wrote:
Deapstrike as I remember it never says "any where on the board, including outside of your deployment zone."

Funnily enough it actually says anywhere on the table, how about that..?

I am also in the camp that reads deploying for battle to mean that, the deployment done before combat begins.

I do not really understand why some think GW would give a psyker the chance to summon daemons and then in the next sentence say that you can't do that, too bad for you.

You seem to think that I agree with the OP I do not. That sentence that you quote is an example of a rule that does not explicitly state you can brake a deployment rule but is implied and understood that it DOES allow you to. Trying to show the flaw of the OPs reasoning.

I do not think so, I never even implied that. I just pointed out it does say so.

 CrownAxe wrote:
So gate of infinity and veil of darkness are deployment as well

If you veil of darkness a deathmark unit in from reserve, these units count as being "deployed" for the purposes of hfh tokens. Same as them coming in from reserves.

I would interpret the rule to mean pre battle deployment otherwise any cta allies that come in from outlfank, deep strike or otherwise will mishap when they're within 12 inches of a cta ally.

 DeathReaper wrote:
Units are only restricted when "they are deploying for battle" which is done before the battle and not during it.

I must have missed the page number for this part.

 Jimsolo wrote:

 DeathReaper wrote:
Units are only restricted when "they are deploying for battle" which is done before the battle and not during it.

I must have missed the page number for this part.

it is in the Choosing your army section under allies, levels of alliance Come the Apocalypse section.

"Units that will only ally ‘Come the Apocalypse’ are treated exactly like Desperate Allies, but cannot deploy within 12” of each other when they are deploying for battle."

If you are CTA you can not deploy within 12” when deploying for battle.

Damn if people put this kind of work and effort into curing cancer as opposed playing with toy men we would have eradicated cancer ages ago.

For the record I say they can summon demons. Not because I want them to for fluff reasons...but the player has spent points on the psyker and risked perils of the warp and used warp charges to power the summoning.

To sit across from your opponent and say "well, actually because of the confusion over deployment vs. "deployment"...you can't do that" is seriously inviting a throat punch followed by not being able to get in a game for being TFG.

nosferatu1001 wrote:
Zagman - so you will ignore the context of the statement, and pretend it means something else?

That isnt a RAW argument.

Not the context, just your assumption about the alleged context.

 DeathReaper wrote:

 Jimsolo wrote:

 DeathReaper wrote:
Units are only restricted when "they are deploying for battle" which is done before the battle and not during it.

I must have missed the page number for this part.

it is in the Choosing your army section under allies, levels of alliance Come the Apocalypse section.

"Units that will only ally ‘Come the Apocalypse’ are treated exactly like Desperate Allies, but cannot deploy within 12” of each other when they are deploying for battle."

If you are CTA you can not deploy within 12” when deploying for battle.

Correct. You have successfully quoted THAT rule.

But you also say that THIS is a rule:

Units are only restricted when "they are deploying for battle" which is done before the battle and not during it.

And I can't find THAT sentence anywhere in the book. As far as I can find, deploying for battle encompasses any kind of deployment.

Jimsolo, I will try to prove that the rule must be talking about deployment at the start of the game.

...when "they" are deploying for battle.

Who does "they" refer to? If we look back, we see that they refer to units that are CtA. Since the rule references both units, this must occur at a time when both units are deploying. The only time 2 units deploy at the same time is when you initially deploy your army, or both units are arriving from reserves. Since the summoned unit is arriving after reserves, then the summoned unit and the summoning unit are not deploying within 12" of each other.

 Happyjew wrote:
Jimsolo, I will try to prove that the rule must be talking about deployment at the start of the game.

...when "they" are deploying for battle.

Who does "they" refer to? If we look back, we see that they refer to units that are CtA. Since the rule references both units, this must occur at a time when both units are deploying. The only time 2 units deploy at the same time is when you initially deploy your army, or both units are arriving from reserves. Since the summoned unit is arriving after reserves, then the summoned unit and the summoning unit are not deploying within 12" of each other.

Not true, "they" references "units". It is referencing correctly the deployment of all Come the Apocalypse units, whereas our specific situation only references one, the summoned Comes the Apocalyose unit.

Does not prove anything in the slightest. Not even close.

 Jimsolo wrote:

But you also say that THIS is a rule:

deathreaper wrote:Units are only restricted when "they are deploying for battle" which is done before the battle and not during it.

And I can't find THAT sentence anywhere in the book. As far as I can find, deploying for battle encompasses any kind of deployment.

Under The Turn section, ‘Before the Game Begins’ and ‘At the End of the Game’ subsection 1st sentence.

"During your game, you may encounter rules that say that an action or event happens ‘before the game begins’. Examples of such events include generating Warlord Traits and psychic powers. These are always resolved before the armies deploy for battle."

"deploy for battle" = "before the game begins"

Can't a unit be "deploying for battle" while "deploying during battle"? It seems like it could go either way when I read it.

 DeathReaper wrote:
"deploy for battle" = "before the game begins"

This is the crux of the issue. The above quote is nothing more than your opinion.

I say that "deploy for battle" = "deploy"

And there are no rules in the BRB that tell us otherwise.

 Jimsolo wrote:

 DeathReaper wrote:
"deploy for battle" = "before the game begins"

This is the crux of the issue. The above quote is nothing more than your opinion.

I say that "deploy for battle" = "deploy"

And there are no rules in the BRB that tell us otherwise.

Incorrect, it is not my opinion, it is written into the rules.

I quoted them, let me do so again.

Under The Turn section, ‘Before the Game Begins’ and ‘At the End of the Game’ subsection 1st sentence.

"During your game, you may encounter rules that say that an action or event happens ‘before the game begins’. Examples of such events include generating Warlord Traits and psychic powers. These are always resolved before the armies deploy for battle."

This shows us that "an action or event happens ‘before the game begins'" is "always resolved before the armies deploy for battle."

Ergo Deploy for battle = ‘before the game begins' as per the quote.

No getting around it.

And none of that addresses the core issue. (Unless you're trying to say that since all deployment is pregame deployment, all Deep Strikers must Deep Strike before game.)

There is no way to argue that Deep Strike isn't deployment. The Deep Strike rules tell you that the unit is deploying. It's black and white.

But at this point we're just going in circles. I'm saying the same things to you and you aren't listening, and you're saying the same things to me.

So unless someone has any more productive information to add, I'm going to ask a mod to lock the thread so we can start a productive discussion on Deep Striking in general in this edition, irrespective of summoning.

I am the TO for my FLGS and after reading this thread and the rules more than a few times, and after really looking at the implications for this I am going to rule that the use of the word deploy in the deep strike rule does NOT apply to the CTO allies 12" away deployment.

Forcing people to play it this way would just bog the game down and cause undue strain on the flow of the game. The Severe restrictions on how a unit could be used in these cases would cause more harm to the game than would help.

That said Jim if you want to play a game out your way just to show me how it isn't as bad as I think it is, you may do so at your convenience. We can take pictures to fully illustrate the way we played and even post the results.

I for one would think that the only way to settle this is to try it out and make sure.

 Jimsolo wrote:
And none of that addresses the core issue. (Unless you're trying to say that since all deployment is pregame deployment, all Deep Strikers must Deep Strike before game.)

It does address the core issue. There is a defference between Deploying for battle (Which is done pre-game and CTA has a restriction on) and deploy during DS which happens when the CTA restrictions no longer apply as I have shown.

There is no way to argue that Deep Strike isn't deployment. The Deep Strike rules tell you that the unit is deploying. It's black and white.

Deploying for Battle and "deploying via Deep Strike" (Special rules Deep Strike section, arriving by Deep Strike sub-section, 3rd bullet point) are not the same thing.

But at this point we're just going in circles. I'm saying the same things to you and you aren't listening, and you're saying the same things to me.

we are because I have presented rules and you have ignored them

So unless someone has any more productive information to add, I'm going to ask a mod to lock the thread so we can start a productive discussion on Deep Striking in general in this edition, irrespective of summoning.

look at my previous posts the info is all there.

 Jimsolo wrote:
And none of that addresses the core issue. (Unless you're trying to say that since all deployment is pregame deployment, all Deep Strikers must Deep Strike before game.)

There is no way to argue that Deep Strike isn't deployment. The Deep Strike rules tell you that the unit is deploying. It's black and white.

But at this point we're just going in circles. I'm saying the same things to you and you aren't listening, and you're saying the same things to me.

So unless someone has any more productive information to add, I'm going to ask a mod to lock the thread so we can start a productive discussion on Deep Striking in general in this edition, irrespective of summoning.

Ah, that's your issue. You're conflating "deploy for battle" with "deployment", and assuming they're the same. The rule book states otherwise, as you have been shown twice now. Reread DRs quote, and note it defines exactly what has been claimed.

There's actually a quote in a recent WD (I think it was Issue 15) regarding the use of the Possession power by Ezekiel, who sacrifced himself to turn into a Bloodthirster. The meat of the comment was that everyone in the WD office now ribs the DA player about it every time he comments about incorruptibility.

Since that nominally wouldn't be possible if Jimsolo's assertions were true, I'm willing to interpret that as an indication that his assertions are false. Shaky logic to rules lawyers, I'm sure, but I like to think that the people at WD happen to know, in general, the rules to GW's own game.

Oh well, sent a query off to GW's rules mailbox asking the question in general and with a specific example. Maybe it'll get answered before 8th ed.

LoH wrote:
...but I like to think that the people at WD happen to know, in general, the rules to GW's own game...

Yea, I am not so sure even they know what they meant when they wrote some of these rules...

Though it is a little better than last edition, but not by much.

LoH wrote:
Since that nominally wouldn't be possible if Jimsolo's assertions were true, I'm willing to interpret that as an indication that his assertions are false. Shaky logic to rules lawyers, I'm sure, but I like to think that the people at WD happen to know, in general, the rules to GW's own game.

You did catch the part where my assertion takes that into account, right? Citing that as evidence of what the writers intended? (Because it sure isn't what they wrote.)

 Jimsolo wrote:

LoH wrote:
Since that nominally wouldn't be possible if Jimsolo's assertions were true, I'm willing to interpret that as an indication that his assertions are false. Shaky logic to rules lawyers, I'm sure, but I like to think that the people at WD happen to know, in general, the rules to GW's own game.

You did catch the part where my assertion takes that into account, right? Citing that as evidence of what the writers intended? (Because it sure isn't what they wrote.)

Apart from the part where it is. Or are you still claiming that deploying (general) is the same as deploying for the battle

 Jimsolo wrote:

LoH wrote:
Since that nominally wouldn't be possible if Jimsolo's assertions were true, I'm willing to interpret that as an indication that his assertions are false. Shaky logic to rules lawyers, I'm sure, but I like to think that the people at WD happen to know, in general, the rules to GW's own game.

You did catch the part where my assertion takes that into account, right? Citing that as evidence of what the writers intended? (Because it sure isn't what they wrote.)

And your assertion requires that the writers intended the pre-battle deployment restrictions to apply to coming in from Reserves or Deep Strike. The language used renders that particular point ambiguous, as it's not explicitly spelled out on the page.

There isn't, at this point, a handed-down-from-above Ideal "RAW" for this. So this argument is going to go 'round in circles, you sure in your own interpretation and anyone else commenting in theirs. I know my local group is going to come to a loose consensus on this particular issue, and that interpretation is going to stick until some guidance from Above lands. As for anyone else here genuinely interested in what to do, seems pretty obvious--talk it out in your groups (or write it out ahead of time for TOs) and pick an interpretation and run with it. Local meta fluctuates a bit as people get used to it, but that's normal.

 DeathReaper wrote:

 Jimsolo wrote:

 DeathReaper wrote:
"deploy for battle" = "before the game begins"

This is the crux of the issue. The above quote is nothing more than your opinion.

I say that "deploy for battle" = "deploy"

And there are no rules in the BRB that tell us otherwise.

Incorrect, it is not my opinion, it is written into the rules.

I quoted them, let me do so again.

Under The Turn section, ‘Before the Game Begins’ and ‘At the End of the Game’ subsection 1st sentence.

"During your game, you may encounter rules that say that an action or event happens ‘before the game begins’. Examples of such events include generating Warlord Traits and psychic powers. These are always resolved before the armies deploy for battle."

This shows us that "an action or event happens ‘before the game begins'" is "always resolved before the armies deploy for battle."

Ergo Deploy for battle = ‘before the game begins' as per the quote.

No getting around it.

I see a possible fallacy above: while it is clear that from what you have laid out that "before the game begins" is "always resolved before the armies deploy for battle."

Your arguement does not prove that "deploy for battle" MUST happen before the game begins. How did you conclude that? Not that I disagree with you, missing that part in your process.

If one can prove that "deploy for battle" = "deploy", the above criteria can still be met in your example.

Indeed, a literal reading of the phrase: "...During your game, you may encounter rules that say that an action or event happens ‘before the game begins’. Examples of such events include generating Warlord Traits and psychic powers. These are always resolved before the armies deploy for battle..." indicates that the 'before the game begins' rules happen before the armies deploy. There is nothing to explicitly indicate 'when' deployment is supposed to occur in that rule, except at some point chronologically after 'the game begins'. The phrase is not inclusive just to that moment in time immediately after the game has started however, it can be read to encompass the entirety of the game or any discrete time-frame found therein.

Jimsolo is correct however, further additions to this argument are getting very repetitive.

I'll try to make the point made earlier more clearly.

There are restrictions on deploying. Those restrictions apply throughout the game, like lets say my squad of dire avengers is in reserve because they wouldn't fit on the table. I don't get to deploy them on my opponents table side later, just because it's no longer "before battle". They still need a rule to be able to come on somewhere else, like infiltration or deep strike.

Deep strike says they can deploy anywhere on the table. When summoning a deamon we now have four rules that contradict.


1. You must deploy iin your deployment zone.
2.. The faction rule says that I can't deploy within 12" of an eldar model.
3. Deepstrike says you can deploy anywhere.on the table.
4. The summoning says that "anywhere" must be within 12" of the summoning model.

rule 1 is a very broad scope rule, so that is trumped by all of the more specific rules that follow. The next rule is also a general rule, which is overrode by deepstrike ( a specific rule for that unit trumps a general rule for the army) Now the summoning rule overrides the "anywhere" for the less specific deepstrike rule (because it says it does) and restricts it to 12".

1. You must deploy iin your deployment zone. (general rule, overrode by all other rules)
2.. The faction rule says that I can't deploy within 12" of an eldar model. (more specific than rule 1, so trumps general deployment zone rules)
3. Deepstrike says you can deploy anywhere.on the table. (even more specific as it applies only to specific units instead of the whole army (rule 1) or a whole faction (rule 2)
4. The summoning says that "anywhere" must be within 12" of the summoning model. (a specific restriction applied to this type of deepstrike)

There's another option though that people aren't even considering and I completely disagree with the whole with in "12 inches" thing that people are stating.

Of course they intend you to summon Daemons, and not have a long drawn out Faux Legal argument aobut it ,but I'd just like to point out.

Well first off everyone is leaving this off

When the power is resolved, the new unit then arrives via Deep Strike, within the power’s maximum range; the new unit is under your control and is treated as having arrived from Reserves for all rules purposes.

People need to actually understand what a word means, that deploying a unit during DEPLOYMENT, is not the same as deploying a unit from reserve. It's just not. It's Deploying from Reserve. What are you doing with that unit? It is being deployed from reserve.


Deployment Zones

Once the armies are chosen, the areas where they can be set up, or rather deployed, must be decided.

Preparing Reserves

When deploying their armies, players can choose not to deploy some of their units, keeping them as Reserves to arrive later.



It's very weird to go on here and read peoples interpretations as if they are some how making a legal argument, working in law its weird to read something like this on here because it's sooooo funny because new lawyers try this all the time with argueing letter of the law and it just inevitably get's crushed.







Automatically Appended Next Post:
So why does this matter because if you actually want to argue over this here it is.

We know that deployment, setup, and arriving are interchangeable terms with in the ruleset and that it depends strictly on the usage or verbage of that word in the context of what it is used in order to determine what it's definition is.

The definition of deployed can be interchanged with set up due to the language of the book and the book making that statement.

It is up to you the player to interpret what the context of that words usage is or if we were in court the judge.

The specific terms of units of reserve, they arrive. They are not Deployed. Deploying and Arriving are seperate usage and have different context with in the document in question.

while I agree with you as far as intent of the rules. (referred to here as RAI... rules as intended). but what you will be held to in tournaments is RAW. (rules as written).

Please read my previous post (the one right above yours). It supports your interpretation in a simple, by the rules way that I don't see how can be refuted.. If this was a courtroom I would be 100% on your side. If it were a friendly game I would be 100% on your side. but this is YMDC, and the rules as written are what you will need the support of to justify it in a tournament.

No one gets laughed out of a tournament for quoting raw. You will get shut down and be left frustrated if someone poorly interprets a rule, and you are stuck with their definition because you aren't familiar enough with the legalistic interpretation of the rules to support what the rules actually DO say.

Deep Striking follows none of the rules for deployment. The models arriving are deploying, but are not restricted by the rules used when deploying for battle. That's why you can choose to deep strike outside of your deployment area. The only thing you've proved is that deployment and deploying are similar words.

that's my point papasoul. Deepstrike specificly breaks all the deployment rules. That would include any less specific rules like not deploying within 12" of a model from an eldar codex

It's not me arguing RAI, it's me saying it literally has two different meanings . In that it's usage is changed because of the context in which it is written specifically.

For example:

A Flyer cannot leave combat airspace on the same turn that it entered play from Reserves – the owning player must deploy their model in such a way that it will not leave the board on the same turn.

Does this mean it cannot move onto the board with in 12 of a unit that has Come the Apocalypse?



I'll state it again , it's usage of the word deploy that you are inferring has one meaning only which I have already shown it does not

In the Section Titled

Come the Apocalypse

Units that will only ally ‘Come the Apocalypse’ are treated exactly like Desperate Allies, but cannot deploy within 12” of each other when they are deploying for battle.


If you choose to use a Battle-forged army, you must tell your opponent what units belong to what Detachments and what Command Benefits each will receive (if any) before you start deploying your army.

Deployment: How the armies must deploy will be described here. Most missions also include a deployment map which accompanies the deployment instructions to describe how and where each of the armies deploys.

which makes first turn charges hard to achieve while still giving you enough space on a typical table to [/b]deploy your army. [/b]

There is a new section though entitled RESERVES

Standard Deployment Method
1. The players roll off. The winner of the roll-off decides who will deploy first and who will deploy second.

2. The side deploying first must set up all the units in their army.

3. Then the other side sets up all the units in their army.

4. The player that deployed first can choose to take the first or second turn. If they decide to take the first turn, their opponent can attempt to Seize the Initiative.

The following sequence is used in most Warhammer 40,000 missions:


RESERVES have their own special rules they are OUT OF SEQUENCE of the normal Set up and DEPLOYMENT RULES:

MISSION SPECIAL RULES

Special rules can be added to a game to cover unique situations, tactics or abilities that you feel need to be represented in your battle

RESERVES:
Preparing Reserves

When deploying their armies, players can choose not to deploy some of their units

When Reserves arrive, pick one of your arriving units and [ deploy it , moving it onto the table as described below. Then pick another arriving unit and deploy it, and so on until all arriving units are on the table.


All of these are different usages of the word DEPLOY, Reserves are not in the STANDARD DEPLOYMENT, where COME THE APOCALYPSE applies.


text removed.
Reds8n

Hollismon, by your interpretation if my dire avengers cannot deploy on turn 1 because there is no room, so are placed in reserve... they can deploy on my opponents table edge because rulse for "deploying for battle" do not apply after the game starts.

Nope. As it specfiically states where your Reserves come in at.

Moving On From Reserve

When a Reserves unit arrives, it must move onto the table from the controlling player’s table edge.


Next.


RESERVES are not part of STANDARD BATTLE DEPLOYMENT.

You are inferring an alternate definition where none exists, but that really doesn't matter. regardless of if the standard battle deployment rules apply or not, deep striking would be a more specific rule, and thus trump it. Either way, you can summon a deamon within 12 inches of an eldar or sm.

But to argue for the sake of accuracy, there are plenty of holes in your theory... we can look at reserves for example as you stated.

"Combined Reserve Units During deployment, when deciding which units are kept as Reserves,"
-Games Workshop Ltd. Warhammer 40,000 (Kindle Locations 10000-10001).

You will note it doesn't say "during deployment for battle"

This is such a stretch lol.

emmagine wrote:
that's my point papasoul. Deepstrike specificly breaks all the deployment rules. That would include any less specific rules like not deploying within 12" of a model from an eldar codex

Sorry, I was agreeing with you, my comment just happened to be directly under yours.

I'm baffled how this has gone one for 4 pages

emmagine wrote:
You are inferring an alternate definition where none exists, but that really doesn't matter. regardless of if the standard battle deployment rules apply or not, deep striking would be a more specific rule, and thus trump it. Either way, you can summon a deamon within 12 inches of an eldar or sm.

But to argue for the sake of accuracy, there are plenty of holes in your theory... we can look at reserves for example as you stated.

"Combined Reserve Units During deployment, when deciding which units are kept as Reserves,"
-Games Workshop Ltd. Warhammer 40,000 (Kindle Locations 10000-10001).

You will note it doesn't say "during deployment for battle"

Really because I just gave a clear example of where the rulebook defines what Deploy means, see previous post.

Deploy can also mean set on .

Now tell me by your definition a unit coming in from reserve can it move with in 12 inches of a Come the Apocalypse.

Of course it can, read my previous posts (easiest would be the one with red to see how). I've been saying that for several posts. It doesn't matter which of us is correct. Either way it can be summoned within 12".

And yes you did give one where it seems to imply that... However I just gave a clear example of where they refer to the initial deployment as "deployment" instead of "deploying for battle", when clearly meaning initial deployment. So at best, you've managed to prove the whole thing is poorly written. But we already knew that.

Again, Editor is a Ceremonial title at Gamesworkshop.

Yep. I think they throw darts at a 'word of the week' calendar to determine most things.

I kid, I kid. In fairness the wording for most rules has firmed up and typically becomes more consistent as the editions roll by, They just generally tend to mess up a lot on the new stuff they add in.

Hollismason wrote:
It's not me arguing RAI, it's me saying it literally has two different meanings . In that it's usage is changed because of the context in which it is written specifically.

......

All of these are different usages of the word DEPLOY, Reserves are not in the STANDARD DEPLOYMENT, where COME THE APOCALYPSE applies.


If you cannot understand how words have different usage depending on context, I seriously doubt you function at any level in society.

emphasis mine.

Also please refrain from these type of comments. They are against the forum rules, and make you look like you are more attached to your viewpoint due to emotional reasons than logical ones.

I stand by my statement.

Pg. 133 seems to give the description for (spawned, summoned, and replaced units). Conjured Units & Victory Conditions at the bottom right of the page seems to put them in your army as far as Victory Conditions and Victory Points are concerned.

Hollismason wrote:
I stand by my statement.

Simple enough to report then. Happy hunting to you sir.