We're having a big argument about this at our FLGS, and it's actually becoming sort of a problem (since it heavily affects our Grey Knights player, who runs with a lot of lvl 1 psykers). The rules state certain restrictions when you're manifesting powers (a unit can't manifest the same power twice, and you need to have enough warp charges in your pool to actually cast it, etc.), but there doesn't seem to be a hard limit on how many individual powers a psyker can cast. At the beginning of the psychic phase section of the rulebook, there is a big bolded sentence: The number of psychic powers a Psyker can use each turn depends on his Mastery Level, and most of the people at our FLGS are taking this to mean that a psyker can only manifest as many powers as he has mastery levels (so that a lvl 1 psyker who knows Force, Invisibility, and Psychic Shriek could only manifest one of those in the psychic phase). But I don't see any specific restriction like that in the rulebook - it seems like if you have enough warp charges in your pool, you could try casting all three of those. Again, for a Grey Knights army this is fairly important, since my interpretation would allow you to cast Hammerhand AND Force on your lvl 1 squads (a powerful buff if you're fighting an MC). It would also significantly buff an army with a single lvl1 power, since he could usually rely on the d6 warp charge pool to give him enough warp dice to cast both his regular and his primaris power.

Who's right, Dakka: can psykers only cast as many powers as they have mastery levels, or is there no upper limit provided you have enough warp charges and are casting unique powers?

There was a previous thread here. Lots of RAW discussion there.
I don't remember if a consensus was reached, but HIWPI as long as you have warp charges and unique powers you can keep casting.

Lol. You answered it your self with the bold text.

My big hangup is that this sentence "The number of psychic powers a Psyker can use each turn depends on his Mastery Level" is not qualitative. HOW does it depend on his master level? Is his mastery level how many he can cast? Or is it just that his mastery level dictates how many spells he has, and that's your inherent limit on how many he can cast? If they intended that it mean "A psycher can only use as many powers per turn as his mastery level", why didn't they just say that? Why don't they mention this limitation in the "Manifesting Psychic Powers" section, where they repeat every other restriction?

I would go even farther: there wasn't any mention of a limit even in 6th edition (it was just a functional limit, since you only ever had as many warp charges as powers).

I hate to dredge up this topic again, but I've been working my way through the thread linked in the second post, and everyone seems to just be arguing past each other.

Number of powers cast is dependent on ML, true, but the BRB doesn't say how it depends on the mastery level.
This is why no agreement was reached, as RAW is too vague and RAI is unclear.

Yeah, anyone who told me that I'd just back slowly away from as they're being purposely dense. It's like those people who discover a mismatch or torn tag or something where their Playstation is 19.99 and they insist that it be sold to them for that , and suddenly they become like a expert at like prices and law or something. It's the most goddamn annoying thing in the forum. To have a actual conversation with someone who is either stupid or trying to be dumber than they already are

It's literally almost like people purposefully play dumb in YMDC when it comes to rules. It's incredibly frustrating to have any kind of real dialogue.

It means ML = the number of Spells you can cast. Tell them to stop being obtuse.

Hollismason wrote:
Yeah, anyone who told me that I'd just back slowly away from as their being purposely dense.

I see it as more of a cool perk of the new system, allowing you the choice to concentrate warp charges onto some lower-level psykers if they're in a good position to use them.

Hollismason wrote:
I don't need a road map to understand what that sentence means.

It's literally almost like people purposefully play dumb in YMDC when it comes to rules. It's incredibly frustrating to have any kind of real dialogue.

I can understand why many (most?) people are not on my side, and I suspect that RAI are that there is a 1:1 correlation between how many powers you can cast and your mastery level. But, IMO, I don't think the book is as clear about this as you're making it out to be.

Hollismason wrote:
Yeah, anyone who told me that I'd just back slowly away from as they're being purposely dense. It's like those people who discover a mismatch or torn tag or something where their Playstation is 19.99 and they insist that it be sold to them for that , and suddenly they become like a expert at like prices and law or something. It's the most goddamn annoying thing in the forum. To have a actual conversation with someone who is either stupid or trying to be dumber than they already are

It's literally almost like people purposefully play dumb in YMDC when it comes to rules. It's incredibly frustrating to have any kind of real dialogue.

It means ML = the number of Spells you can cast. Tell them to stop being obtuse.

Could you share your psychic abilities with the rest of the class? Or are you too busy being condescending and holier-than-thou?
Is it possible for you to admit it's not a clear rule?

Hollismason wrote:
Yeah, anyone who told me that I'd just back slowly away from as they're being purposely dense. It's like those people who discover a mismatch or torn tag or something where their Playstation is 19.99 and they insist that it be sold to them for that , and suddenly they become like a expert at like prices and law or something. It's the most goddamn annoying thing in the forum. To have a actual conversation with someone who is either stupid or trying to be dumber than they already are

It's literally almost like people purposefully play dumb in YMDC when it comes to rules. It's incredibly frustrating to have any kind of real dialogue.

It means ML = the number of Spells you can cast. Tell them to stop being obtuse.

RAW it doesn't state a 1:1 relationship. RAI isn't clear either, and can go either way. Like I said, HIWPI is as long as you have unique powers and warp charges, cast away (though I would ne willing to play it either way.) That said, it is something to discuss with an opponent before the game until the GW FAQs it.

I don't find it unclear at all, and doubt it will be faqed. It will be in the aether then for everyone playing this way.

Sppppppppooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooookkkky

Hollismason wrote:
It's incredibly frustrating to have any kind of real dialogue..

Yeah, it totally sucks when you're trying to have a discussion and someone disagrees with you.


The rule in question is not clear. We can only guess as to what they meant. And as the previous thread showed, there are reasonable guesses either way.

Brandishing one interpretation as the only possible true one and insulting everyone who disagrees is not the way to encourage productive discussion.

I don't need magic cards, or some special insight, I can simply say " Okay through understanding and common sense, this is what this sentence meant". It's not being insulting , what's insulting is to purposefully be difficult in a argument and unyielding. That goes nowhere.

Do you genuinelly think that Psykers can cast all spells they know? If yes why? Then why have the statement, why not say " Casters can cast all spells they know".Why is this such a huge divergence from every single edition of the game. Why was this specific ruling made. Why was this statement not made this way?

Because of the assumption of the writer ,which is unfortunate as they should know better, that people would find it actually difficult to interpret.There's no "trick" in 40k the people who write this aren't trying to hide combos, they're not trying to "confuse" you on purpose. They are assuming that the reader is versed in the game and understanding of language that they will reach a logical not illogical conclusion to what they write.

That's my problem with it.

When I was a paramedic , there was this thing called implied consent.What this meant was that a person who could not give consent, due to being injured or unconscious, would want the best available treatement to them as that was a reasonable response.There's implied consent in the rules, they want you to enjoy the game and understand the rules in a simple and orderly fashion. Granted they could use a actual editor but the person who writes these is not trying to be willfully unclear.

If you take that statement to it's logical conclusion then you have to come to a reasonable assumption that the authorial intent was to right something simply that anyone could understand with out misinterpretation. They failed but that doesn't mean they are wrong or bad or that the rule is unclear. It's that you the reader are unwilling to view the rule in a clear and concise rational view.

Rules say a number is dependent on another number.

Players start looking for exponents.

Hollismason wrote:
Why is this such a huge divergence from every single edition of the game.

It's not. Psykers in 2nd edition (ie: The last time we had a separate 'Psychic Phase') could potentially cast every power they had, provided they drew sufficient Warp cards.

If you take that statement to it's logical conclusion then you have to come to a reasonable assumption that the authorial intent was to right something simply that anyone could understand with out misinterpretation. They failed but that doesn't mean they are wrong or bad or that the rule is unclear..

Uh, if the rule has been written in such a way as to have people reading it is not 'understanding without misinterpretation' how does that not mean that the rule is unclear...?

If you can cast every power you know...

and the number of powers you know is dependent on your ML

Then the number of powers you can cast is also dependent on your ML.


So when they say the number of spells you can cast is dependent on the ML.... that can easily mean you can cast every spell you know.

You can cast every power the psyker knows, the only limit is the psychic phase dice.

As far as I recall the statement referenced by the OP is just a cut and paste from 6E when the maximum number of powers you could use was dependent on your ML. The 7E psychic phase rules have completely changed that. Having the pool of WC means a psyker can continue casting as long as they a) know the power concerned b) have not already cast it that turn and c) have enough WC.

If they wanted to limit the number of powers that could be cast by a psyker they really needed to change the up front statement to reflect this. As the moment that statement is a now vague hangover from 6E which conflicts with the detailed psychic phase rules.

It could certainly do with an FAQ if the RAI were to limit the number of powers however as it stands RAW means you aren't limited by your ML.

The statement saying "The number of psychic powers a Psyker can use each turn depends on his Mastery Level" may mean two things, to me, and both seem semantically correct (again, to me):

I. A ML1 psycher may attempt to manifest one power, a ML2 may attempt 2, et cetera;

II. A ML1 psycher knows 1 power + bonus(es) + Force, so he may attempt those 2+1, a ML2 knows 2 to 4 + Force (primaris and Chaos focus being bonuses). If what they know depends on their ML, and they cast what they know, thei cast depending on their ML.

I'd go with the latter for two more reasons:
- force can now be denied, iirc, (and it can fail) so being usable alongside another power balances a bit this drawback (and adds to strategy, the order of manifested powers matters)
- take 2 armies with 1 single ml1 psycher each... Psy A generates 6+1 warp charges, psy B generates 1+1...
Rules (again, iirc) say that A can try and manifest each power once per unit if it has enough warp charges and the unit knows that power: in the example, let's say A manifests primaris with 1 die, and gets denied; then attempts Force with 1 die, denied again; finally attempts the rolled power with yet again 1 die (to avoid perils), and succeeds.
Same situation, only one power:
- A rolls 1 die, deny with 2 (more chances to be denied)
- A rolls 2-6 dice, more chances to peril..

One reading is more "tactical", one penalizes the caster.... I'd still go with the tactical one

I'm unsure. Could easily mean either.

However I would lean towards your ML being how many casts as a restriction, because of the structure of the sentence. How many he can use depends on his mastery level.

Rather than how many he has/ha generated and how many ML your army has, which are different things. Its pretty specific to how many of the psyker's powers he can use depends on his mastery level.

How many power he 'knows' is not dependent 100% on his ML. Maybe just a copy - paste fail, or thy didn't take that into account.

Either way it's in RAI territory.

Dependant on does not mean equal to.

And the rules very clearly state that any psychic unit can keep casting spells so long as they know more and haven't run out of warp charges.

People are claiming that a vague sentence means what they want it to, and ignoring the crystal clear RAW later in the chapter.

Hell, it was even possible to cast more powers than your mastry level back in 6th ed. (Eldrad casting all four powers he knows during the turn, regaining warp charges off his equipment, then activating a force weapon in assault)

Yes. Any interpretation of that initial statement is always going to be from a RAI or HIWPI standpoint because it's just not explicit enough. If you follow the RAW for the psychic phase you can currently cast as many powers as you want if you meet the other rules requirements.

Hollismason wrote:
Yeah, anyone who told me that I'd just back slowly away from as they're being purposely dense. It's like those people who discover a mismatch or torn tag or something where their Playstation is 19.99 and they insist that it be sold to them for that , and suddenly they become like a expert at like prices and law or something. It's the most goddamn annoying thing in the forum. To have a actual conversation with someone who is either stupid or trying to be dumber than they already are

It's literally almost like people purposefully play dumb in YMDC when it comes to rules. It's incredibly frustrating to have any kind of real dialogue.

It means ML = the number of Spells you can cast. Tell them to stop being obtuse.

Way to be condescending AND wrong, all in the same post

Dependency does not equate to a 1:1 relationship every time. It CAN do, but does not HAVE to. It gives you insufficient information for you to come to the answer you have done, therefore at best you are arguing HYWPI.

Hollismason wrote:
I don't need magic cards, or some special insight, I can simply say " Okay through understanding and common sense, this is what this sentence meant". It's not being insulting , what's insulting is to purposefully be difficult in a argument and unyielding. That goes nowhere.

Do you genuinelly think that Psykers can cast all spells they know? If yes why? Then why have the statement, why not say " Casters can cast all spells they know".Why is this such a huge divergence from every single edition of the game. Why was this specific ruling made. Why was this statement not made this way?

Because of the assumption of the writer ,which is unfortunate as they should know better, that people would find it actually difficult to interpret.There's no "trick" in 40k the people who write this aren't trying to hide combos, they're not trying to "confuse" you on purpose. They are assuming that the reader is versed in the game and understanding of language that they will reach a logical not illogical conclusion to what they write.

That's my problem with it.

When I was a paramedic , there was this thing called implied consent.What this meant was that a person who could not give consent, due to being injured or unconscious, would want the best available treatement to them as that was a reasonable response.There's implied consent in the rules, they want you to enjoy the game and understand the rules in a simple and orderly fashion. Granted they could use a actual editor but the person who writes these is not trying to be willfully unclear.

If you take that statement to it's logical conclusion then you have to come to a reasonable assumption that the authorial intent was to right something simply that anyone could understand with out misinterpretation. They failed but that doesn't mean they are wrong or bad or that the rule is unclear. It's that you the reader are unwilling to view the rule in a clear and concise rational view.

This from a person that thinks when GW say different Maledictions stack they mean the same Maledictions stack. Which is A LOT clearer than this rule. Granted when I read the first sentence I was expecting a 1:1 ratio to be mentioned. However looking at previous Editions we have a mixed bag only 2 Editions have had Psychic Levels. In 6th is was a direct 1:1 ratio, in 2nd the only previous Edition that also included a Psychic phase how many powers you had depended on your mastery level but you could cast as many as you had which appears to me to be what the rules are saying here.

I could be wrong and it clearly needs an FAQ. On first reading I thought it was entirely clear that you could cast as many powers as you had but the reaction here illustrates that it needs to be more clear.

Hollismason wrote:
Do you genuinelly think that Psykers can cast all spells they know? If yes why?

Because of the rule later on that says you can keep casting until you run out of Warp Charges.

Then why have the statement, why not say " Casters can cast all spells they know".Why is this such a huge divergence from every single edition of the game. Why was this specific ruling made. Why was this statement not made this way?

Are you really asking why a GW writer wrote something vague? :-)

Because of the assumption of the writer ,which is unfortunate as they should know better, that people would find it actually difficult to interpret.There's no "trick" in 40k the people who write this aren't trying to hide combos, they're not trying to "confuse" you on purpose. They are assuming that the reader is versed in the game and understanding of language that they will reach a logical not illogical conclusion to what they write.

That's my problem with it.

Why is it illogical to think "If, after attempting to manifest a psychic power, you still have Warp Charge points left, you can attempt to manifest another psychic power with the same unit, or select another of your Psyker units and attempt to manifest a power the new unit knows." should mean something? If you can only manifest your ML in number of powers, why does it matter if you have WC left?
Why is it illogical to think "Where this is not the case, the Psyker knows a number of psychic powers equal to his Mastery Level." is what it means by "depends on"?

When I was a paramedic , there was this thing called implied consent.What this meant was that a person who could not give consent, due to being injured or unconscious, would want the best available treatement to them as that was a reasonable response.There's implied consent in the rules, they want you to enjoy the game and understand the rules in a simple and orderly fashion. Granted they could use a actual editor but the person who writes these is not trying to be willfully unclear.

I suspect that more and more with each edition - either they don't know how to express themselves clearly (which I don't believe) or they're deliberately making some rules vague for whatever reason.

If you take that statement to it's logical conclusion then you have to come to a reasonable assumption that the authorial intent was to right something simply that anyone could understand with out misinterpretation. They failed but that doesn't mean they are wrong or bad or that the rule is unclear. It's that you the reader are unwilling to view the rule in a clear and concise rational view.

My problem with your stance is that you're only accepting your interpretation as correct when you literally have no basis for doing so.
An equally valid interpretation exists that takes all the Psychic phase rules into account (where yours has to handwave some of them away as redundant statements) and you're refusing to recognize it, dismissing it as illogical and against the "spirit" of the rules.

"The number of psychic powers a Psycher can use each turn depends on his Mastery Level". BWB (Big White Book?), page 22, paragraph 4.

I do not think this relationship is as unclear as people are making it out to be. In addition to the rule stating that the number of powers that can be manifested depends on mastery level, you also have to consider that nowhere else in the book does it indicate that the number of powers that can be manifested depends upon anything else.

Thus, two psychers with the same mastery level should be able to manifest the same number of powers. This actually rules out a lot of possibilities. There are units that have a number of powers that is more than their mastery level, and from the rule, we know that this cannot influence the number of powers manifested, only the mastery level can.

So let us figure out more specific limitations for the following:

Number of Powers = F( ML ), where F is some unknown function and ML is the psycher's Mastery Level.

Powers are countable, thus F > 0 for any ML.
F is NOT influenced by any other factors, such as the number of powers known.
F(ML) <= ML + (minimum 1d6 roll, which is 1), otherwise there would not be enough warp charges to even attempt to manifest powers.
This also implies that F(ML) must be linear.
F(ML) is NOT a constant, otherwise it would not depend on ML.

The only possibilities logically left are:
1) F(ML) = ML - 1
2) F(ML) = ML
3) F(ML) = ML + 1

Even though there are no ML 0 psychers, I think it is fair to eliminate option 1 because that would lead to -1 powers for a hypothetical ML0 psycher.

So the only possibilities left are:
F(ML) = ML --or-- F(ML) = ML + 1

I do not have a 7th edition book, but the final formula could be determined by looking for an example in the book that indicates how many powers a specific psycher can manifest.

madric wrote:

So the only possibilities left are:
F(ML) = ML --or-- F(ML) = ML + 1

I do not have a 7th edition book, but the final formula could be determined by looking for an example in the book that indicates how many powers a specific psycher can manifest.

Problem with using this is that guys like Be'lakor have access to a TON of powers (like 7) while only having a Mastery level of 3. So the debate is actually very important for certain characters.

Problem with using this is that guys like Be'lakor have access to a TON of powers (like 7) while only having a Mastery level of 3. So the debate is actually very important for certain characters.

It may be a problem with what people desire, but not with the rules. If the rules stated that the number of powers that can be manifested depended on both the ML and the number of powers known, then characters like Be'lakor would be able to manifest a lot of powers. But as the rules are written, the number of powers that can be manifested only depends upon the ML.

Even still, there is a great advantage to knowing a large number of powers, and picking and choosing which ones to manifest depending on the circumstances. Even for lowly ML1 psychers, getting to pick between their power and the primaris power is a great advantage as many powers are very useful, but only in the right circumstances.

every aspect of the psychic phase is badly written. Figure out how your local community will play it until / if a faq comes out and go with that. But don't pretend anything about it is "clear" or "obvious".

The rule synopsis at the beginning of each section and the more specific rules contradict in nearly every single section.

You want a consistent formula? OK.

F(ML) = ML + BP + FP

ML = mastery level
BP = 1 if given bonus primarus power. 0 if not
FP = 1 if equipped with Force weapon. 0 if not.

Example. Warlock is Psyker ML 1. He will roll in his table and reciieve the bonus primarus power. He does not have a force weapon.

F(ML) = 1 + 1 + 0 = 2

When I was a paramedic , there was this thing called implied consent.What this meant was that a person who could not give consent, due to being injured or unconscious, would want the best available treatement to them as that was a reasonable response.There's implied consent in the rules, they want you to enjoy the game and understand the rules in a simple and orderly fashion. Granted they could use a actual editor but the person who writes these is not trying to be willfully unclear.

If you take that statement to it's logical conclusion then you have to come to a reasonable assumption that the authorial intent was to right something simply that anyone could understand with out misinterpretation. They failed but that doesn't mean they are wrong or bad or that the rule is unclear. It's that you the reader are unwilling to view the rule in a clear and concise rational view.

Quoted for truth. Thank you for the breath of fresh air...

It may be a problem with what people desire, but not with the rules. If the rules stated that the number of powers that can be manifested depended on both the ML and the number of powers known, then characters like Be'lakor would be able to manifest a lot of powers. But as the rules are written, the number of powers that can be manifested only depends upon the ML. 

Even still, there is a great advantage to knowing a large number of powers, and picking and choosing which ones to manifest depending on the circumstances. Even for lowly ML1 psychers, getting to pick between their power and the primaris power is a great advantage as many powers are very useful, but only in the right circumstances.

So if I'm mastery level 1 how many powers can I cast? What rules are you using to determine that number?

If I'm a lvl1 Psyker and I only have WC3 powers and I roll 1 for WarpCharge (giving me a total of 2 dice) can I still cast a power?

Hollismason wrote:
the person who writes these is not trying to be willfully unclear.

See, this is a wild assumption, you have no idea if the person writing the rules was trying to be clear or not.

We hope he was not "trying to be willfully unclear" but he may have been "trying to be willfully unclear" we simply can not say with any certainty if he was or not.

Hollismason wrote:


Do you genuinelly think that Psykers can cast all spells they know? If yes why? Then why have the statement, why not say " Casters can cast all spells they know".Why is this such a huge divergence from every single edition of the game. Why was this specific ruling made. Why was this statement not made this way?

"If, after attempting to manifest a psychic power, you still have Warp Charge points left, you can attempt to manifest another psychic power with the same unit, or select another of your Psyker units and attempt to manifest a power the new unit knows."

Cause the rulebook says we can....

Zimko wrote:
You want a consistent formula? OK.

F(ML) = ML + BP + FP

ML = mastery level
BP = 1 if given bonus primarus power. 0 if not
FP = 1 if equipped with Force weapon. 0 if not.

Example. Warlock is Psyker ML 1. He will roll in his table and reciieve the bonus primarus power. He does not have a force weapon.

F(ML) = 1 + 1 + 0 = 2

The problem with this formula is that is is not a function of ML alone. The rules state that the number of powers that may be manifested depends on ML, not bonus powers, not force weapons.

madric wrote:
The problem with this formula is that is is not a function of ML alone. The rules state that the number of powers that may be manifested depends on ML, not bonus powers, not force weapons.

The rules never say that the number of powers that may be manifested depends solely on ML. That's your assumption.
Given that they later refer to casting as many powers as you have WC for... it's not an assumption with ironclad support.

So if I'm mastery level 1 how many powers can I cast? What rules are you using to determine that number?

If I'm a lvl1 Psyker and I only have WC3 powers and I roll 1 for WarpCharge (giving me a total of 2 dice) can I still cast a power?

Depending on what examples are in the book, the only possibilities logically available are 1 (ML) or 2 (ML+1). Only one of these will be correct, just find an example in the book where they say how many powers a character with a certain ML can manifest.

If this Psyker is your only one, and you roll 1 for warp charges, and both your power (and the primaris power you get) both require 3 warp charges, then you may still attempt to manifest the power, but you do not have a chance to pass the psychic test, which requires a minimum of 3 successful dice rolls.

Not sure if this helps or not, but under the Mastery Levels heading in the Psyker Phase section it states that,

"The number of psychic powers a Psyker can use each turn depends on his Mastery Level."

What this sounds like, to me at least, is that each Psyker may attempt to cast as many spells as they can pay for, up to their Mastery Level limit.

 Lobomalo wrote:
Not sure if this helps or not, but under the Mastery Levels heading in the Psyker Phase section it states that,

"The number of psychic powers a Psyker can use each turn depends on his Mastery Level."

What this sounds like, to me at least, is that each Psyker may attempt to cast as many spells as they can pay for, up to their Mastery Level limit.

Yes, this has been quoted often (even in this thread). However, that is only one line in the Psychic phase rules. There is also this one; ""If, after attempting to manifest a psychic power, you still have Warp Charge points left, you can attempt to manifest another psychic power with the same unit, or select another of your Psyker units and attempt to manifest a power the new unit knows."

How can you attempt to manifest another, assuming you still have WC points left, if you're limited to manifesting a number = to your ML (which, as has also been pointed out, depends =/= equal to in all cases, and this case is entirely unclear).?

The rules never say that the number of powers that may be manifested depends solely on ML. That's your assumption.
Given that they later refer to casting as many powers as you have WC for... it's not an assumption with ironclad support.

The rule states that the number of powers that can be manifested in a phase depends on the ML of the psyker. Thus, two psykers with the same ML must be able to manifest the same number of powers. Logically then, this number cannot depend upon force weapons, because not every psyker has these. If every psyker has access to bonus powers, then the formula might be ML+1, but my suspicion is that there are still codices out there that list what powers explicitly and give a ML1 psyker a specific power, which would limit the rule's interpretation of the number of manifested powers per phase to simply be the ML alone.

madric wrote:

So if I'm mastery level 1 how many powers can I cast? What rules are you using to determine that number?

If I'm a lvl1 Psyker and I only have WC3 powers and I roll 1 for WarpCharge (giving me a total of 2 dice) can I still cast a power?

Depending on what examples are in the book, the only possibilities logically available are 1 (ML) or 2 (ML+1). Only one of these will be correct, just find an example in the book where they say how many powers a character with a certain ML can manifest.

"If, after attempting to manifest a psychic power, you still have Warp Charge points left, you can attempt to manifest another psychic power with the same unit, or select another of your Psyker units and attempt to manifest a power the new unit knows."

If the ONLY possibilities are 1 or 2, this line contradicts that, as it states I can continue casting as long as I have warp charges available (and do not cast the same power twice with the same unit)

Rorschach9 wrote:

 Lobomalo wrote:
Not sure if this helps or not, but under the Mastery Levels heading in the Psyker Phase section it states that,

"The number of psychic powers a Psyker can use each turn depends on his Mastery Level."

What this sounds like, to me at least, is that each Psyker may attempt to cast as many spells as they can pay for, up to their Mastery Level limit.

Yes, this has been quoted often (even in this thread). However, that is only one line in the Psychic phase rules. There is also this one; ""If, after attempting to manifest a psychic power, you still have Warp Charge points left, you can attempt to manifest another psychic power with the same unit, or select another of your Psyker units and attempt to manifest a power the new unit knows."

How can you attempt to manifest another, assuming you still have WC points left, if you're limited to manifesting a number = to your ML (which, as has also been pointed out, depends =/= equal to in all cases, and this case is entirely unclear).?

Well the way I see it, if you are Mastery Level 1, you can only use one Psychic power, Mastery Level 2 you can use only two and so on until the maximum.

Something I just noticed after I posted though, the wording states that the number of Psychic powers a Psyker can "use" is depends on their Mastery Level. Reading your post, it states manifesting a Psyker power. If you successfully manifest it you use that particular Psychic power, if you fail to manifest that particular Psychic power you have not used any Psychic powers and, assuming you have Warp Charges left, you can attempt to manifest "use" another one.

madric wrote:
Thus, two psykers with the same ML must be able to manifest the same number of powers.

That's quite a logical leap.
Why must? That's quite a definitive statement that the rules don't reflect.

Logically then, this number cannot depend upon force weapons, because not every psyker has these.

Logically only if your assumption above is correct.

madric wrote:

The rules never say that the number of powers that may be manifested depends solely on ML. That's your assumption.
Given that they later refer to casting as many powers as you have WC for... it's not an assumption with ironclad support.

The rule states that the number of powers that can be manifested in a phase depends on the ML of the psyker. Thus, two psykers with the same ML must be able to manifest the same number of powers. Logically then, this number cannot depend upon force weapons, because not every psyker has these. If every psyker has access to bonus powers, then the formula might be ML+1, but my suspicion is that there are still codices out there that list what powers explicitly and give a ML1 psyker a specific power, which would limit the rule's interpretation of the number of manifested powers per phase to simply be the ML alone.

Again, you're assuming that the word "solely" is in the rule. It isn't.
And you're also assuming GW was clear in communicating what they want. They aren't often.

Why can it not be 2(ML)? Using your understanding, it's solely dependant on the mastery level and is just as valid an assumption as equal to ML.

 grendel083 wrote:

madric wrote:
Thus, two psykers with the same ML must be able to manifest the same number of powers.

That's quite a logical leap.
Why must? That's quite a definitive statement that the rules don't reflect.

Logically then, this number cannot depend upon force weapons, because not every psyker has these.

Logically only if your assumption above is correct.

This is derived from the bolded text of the original poster:

The number of psychic powers a Psyker can use each turn depends on his Mastery Level

If there is a section in force weapons that says that wielders may manifest an additional power, please provide it. Also check the section for primaris powers, see if the rule indicates that a psyker with one can manifest another power.

The only remaining issue is the one below:

"If, after attempting to manifest a psychic power, you still have Warp Charge points left, you can attempt to manifest another psychic power with the same unit, or select another of your Psyker units and attempt to manifest a power the new unit knows."

Cause the rulebook says we can....

I would like to know what section of the book this quote is from. Most rule books describe topics in multiple passes. If there is one section that says how many powers one must manifest, and then there is a section that describes in what order units may manifest powers, and the above quote is in that section, then the context of the quote would make it clear that it is not intended to override the number of powers that may be manifested.

What section or subheading is the quote above in? That is, what is the context?

madric wrote:
I would like to know what section of the book this quote is from. Most rule books describe topics in multiple passes. If there is one section that says how many powers one must manifest, and then there is a section that describes in what order units may manifest powers, and the above quote is in that section, then the context of the quote would make it clear that it is not intended to override the number of powers that may be manifested.

What section or subheading is the quote above in? That is, what is the context?

MANIFESTING PSYCHIC POWERS
The most common psychic action is the manifestation of psychic powers. Only the player whose turn it is can attempt to manifest psychic powers. If, after attempting to manifest a psychic power, you still have Warp Charge points left, you can attempt to manifest another psychic power with the same unit, or select another of your Psyker units and attempt to manifest a power the new unit knows.

Under the Psychic Phase. Having the rules is a benefit when attempting to participate in a rules discussion.

madric wrote:

"If, after attempting to manifest a psychic power, you still have Warp Charge points left, you can attempt to manifest another psychic power with the same unit, or select another of your Psyker units and attempt to manifest a power the new unit knows."

Cause the rulebook says we can....

I would like to know what section of the book this quote is from. Most rule books describe topics in multiple passes. If there is one section that says how many powers one must manifest, and then there is a section that describes in what order units may manifest powers, and the above quote is in that section, then the context of the quote would make it clear that it is not intended to override the number of powers that may be manifested.

What section or subheading is the quote above in? That is, what is the context?

resolving the psychic phase -> manifesting psychic powers.



Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Lobomalo wrote:

Rorschach9 wrote:

 Lobomalo wrote:
Not sure if this helps or not, but under the Mastery Levels heading in the Psyker Phase section it states that,

"The number of psychic powers a Psyker can use each turn depends on his Mastery Level."

What this sounds like, to me at least, is that each Psyker may attempt to cast as many spells as they can pay for, up to their Mastery Level limit.

Yes, this has been quoted often (even in this thread). However, that is only one line in the Psychic phase rules. There is also this one; ""If, after attempting to manifest a psychic power, you still have Warp Charge points left, you can attempt to manifest another psychic power with the same unit, or select another of your Psyker units and attempt to manifest a power the new unit knows."

How can you attempt to manifest another, assuming you still have WC points left, if you're limited to manifesting a number = to your ML (which, as has also been pointed out, depends =/= equal to in all cases, and this case is entirely unclear).?

Well the way I see it, if you are Mastery Level 1, you can only use one Psychic power, Mastery Level 2 you can use only two and so on until the maximum.

Something I just noticed after I posted though, the wording states that the number of Psychic powers a Psyker can "use" is depends on their Mastery Level. Reading your post, it states manifesting a Psyker power. If you successfully manifest it you use that particular Psychic power, if you fail to manifest that particular Psychic power you have not used any Psychic powers and, assuming you have Warp Charges left, you can attempt to manifest "use" another one.

The only place the word "use" is written is in that one line. Every other instance in the Psychic phase uses the word Manifest.

Wouldn't manifesting a power be using it though, or are these two separate actions?

Depending on what examples are in the book, the only possibilities logically available are 1 (ML) or 2 (ML+1). Only one of these will be correct, just find an example in the book where they say how many powers a character with a certain ML can manifest. 

Why have we ruled out ML+2 or ML+100 or MLx2 or even MLx1000? Actual rules please.

 Lobomalo wrote:
Wouldn't manifesting a power be using it though, or are these two separate actions?

Considering GW's writing skills and historical context, I would imagine "use" and "manifest" are equivalent in this case. In which case; this line ->"If, after attempting to manifest a psychic power, you still have Warp Charge points left, you can attempt to manifest another psychic power with the same unit, or select another of your Psyker units and attempt to manifest a power the new unit knows." allows you to manifest until you are out of warp charges.

How does that "depend on ML"? Because your psykers ML contributes to determining the total number of warp charges available, of course, making it dependant on ML (in part).

Absolutely I can see that GW *may* have meant ML = # Of powers you can use, but that is not, at all, what they wrote, thus making it mildly unclear (especially when adding the other rule above)

There's people here talking about how I "can use up to 12 Witchfires a turn- Firestorm x3, Smite x3, Flame Breath x3 and Shriek x3".. and I've seen that on various places here on dakka.

Personally, I don't play it that way. For example, I'll pop Endurance and then triple Shriek and that's 4 powers. I'm not sure that there is an actual limit on how many powers a psyker can use in the rules, but I do know that using 3x of the same Witchfire is not a single power.. It's using 3 powers.. So food for thought, if in case one day everyone is on the same page with powers used vs. Mastery Level.

I am usually hard-pressed to have enough dice to get off 4 spells from one character anyway!!

Rorschach9 wrote:

 Lobomalo wrote:
Wouldn't manifesting a power be using it though, or are these two separate actions?

Considering GW's writing skills and historical context, I would imagine "use" and "manifest" are equivalent in this case. In which case; this line ->"If, after attempting to manifest a psychic power, you still have Warp Charge points left, you can attempt to manifest another psychic power with the same unit, or select another of your Psyker units and attempt to manifest a power the new unit knows." allows you to manifest until you are out of warp charges.

How does that "depend on ML"? Because your psykers ML contributes to determining the total number of warp charges available, of course, making it dependant on ML (in part).

Absolutely I can see that GW *may* have meant ML = # Of powers you can use, but that is not, at all, what they wrote, thus making it mildly unclear (especially when adding the other rule above)

But they directly state that Mastery Level determines the number of powers used. What they have not stated is a limit to how many a Psyker can "attempt" to manifest as this is determined by the Warp Charge amount. The way it sounds to me, manifest is being treated the same as the word use in this instance as the word manifest has no other verb usage in this situation.

 Brometheus wrote:
There's people here talking about how I "can use up to 12 Witchfires a turn- Firestorm x3, Smite x3, Flame Breath x3 and Shriek x3..

Personally, I don't play it that way. For example, I'll pop Endurance and then triple Shriek and that's 4 powers. I'm not sure that there is an actual limit on how many powers a psyker can use in the rules, but I do know that using 3x of the same Witchfire is not a single power.. It's using 3 powers.. So food for thought, if in case one day everyone is on the same page with powers used vs. Mastery Level..

Well there's another rule forbidding you from using the same power twice, so both of those are illegal (well, from the same unit).

Right but Ahriman can use the same Witchfire 3x because of the faq.

 Brometheus wrote:
There's people here talking about how I "can use up to 12 Witchfires a turn- Firestorm x3, Smite x3, Flame Breath x3 and Shriek x3".. and I've seen that on various places here on dakka.

Personally, I don't play it that way. For example, I'll pop Endurance and then triple Shriek and that's 4 powers. I'm not sure that there is an actual limit on how many powers a psyker can use in the rules, but I do know that using 3x of the same Witchfire is not a single power.. It's using 3 powers.. So food for thought, if in case one day everyone is on the same page with powers used vs. Mastery Level.

I am usually hard-pressed to have enough dice to get off 4 spells from one character anyway!!

If those are coming from different units, sure. If they are coming from the same unit, that is forbidden by the rules (you may not attempt to manifest the same power twice with the same unit. 3 x Shriek = 3 x the same power)


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Brometheus wrote:
Right but Ahriman can use the same Witchfire 3x because of the faq.

Of course. The (usually absent, but understood) "unless otherwise noted" rules come in to play there.

MANIFESTING PSYCHIC POWERS
The most common psychic action is the manifestation of psychic powers. Only the player whose turn it is can attempt to manifest psychic powers. If, after attempting to manifest a psychic power, you still have Warp Charge points left, you can attempt to manifest another psychic power with the same unit, or select another of your Psyker units and attempt to manifest a power the new unit knows.

Thank you for the context.

My interpretation of the above quote is that it is describing allowed actions for players after they manifest a psychic power. It seems to be stating the following:
1. Only the player whose turn it is may manifest powers.
2. The controlling player picks a psyker to manifest powers with, and then:
a) If he has remaining warp charges, he may use them to manifest more powers.
b) He moves onto another psyker to begin manifesting powers.
3. If no warp charges remain, the controlling player may not manifest a power.

I think the rule is not actually making a statement on the number of powers that may be manifested by a single psyker. The sentence specifies that what is says only applies after attempting to manifest a power, and the number of powers that may be manifested per psyker is known before that time, so the sentence does not apply to this figure. It is simply disallowing a player from using a power from psyker A, another from psyker B, and then going back to psyker A for another. It also covers the situation of what happens if all your warp charges are used up before a psyker has had a chance to manifest a power, and basically says he's out of luck no matter what his mastery level is; no warp charges = no more manifestations.

Yeah.. I will add to the discussion that even if there's a guy who is level 4, I'd rather dump more dice into a couple powers than a few dice spread around 4 powers.. I find myself doing that every game in 7th so far..

It's no secret that every army might be using 40-60% of the powers they'd use in 6th! I like that, though.. If a new phase is taking up 25% of the game turns, I'd rather blast through it

madric wrote:

MANIFESTING PSYCHIC POWERS
The most common psychic action is the manifestation of psychic powers. Only the player whose turn it is can attempt to manifest psychic powers. If, after attempting to manifest a psychic power, you still have Warp Charge points left, you can attempt to manifest another psychic power with the same unit, or select another of your Psyker units and attempt to manifest a power the new unit knows.

Thank you for the context.

My interpretation of the above quote is that it is describing allowed actions for players after they manifest a psychic power. It seems to be stating the following:
1. Only the player whose turn it is may manifest powers.
2. The controlling player picks a psyker to manifest powers with, and then:
a) If he has remaining warp charges, he may use them to manifest more powers.
b) He moves onto another psyker to begin manifesting powers.
3. If no warp charges remain, the controlling player may not manifest a power.

I think the rule is not actually making a statement on the number of powers that may be manifested by a single psyker. The sentence specifies that what is says only applies after attempting to manifest a power, and the number of powers that may be manifested per psyker is known before that time, so the sentence does not apply to this figure. It is simply disallowing a player from using a power from psyker A, another from psyker B, and then going back to psyker A for another. It also covers the situation of what happens if all your warp charges are used up before a psyker has had a chance to manifest a power, and basically says he's out of luck no matter what his mastery level is; no warp charges = no more manifestations.

For the underlined, if you actually read the rules (I suggest you do, as it seems apparent you havn't) they explicitly state you CAN do this.

It also states that you can attempt to manifest another power in the same psyker unit. If my psyker is an IC and on his own, how can I do that, assuming your limitations (Other than the rules stating I can, as long as I have sufficient Warp Charges)

madric wrote:
It is simply disallowing a player from using a power from psyker A, another from psyker B, and then going back to psyker A for another

See, this is where having a rulebook would help you.
Since quoting the entire rules is frowned upon unless required, I stopped copying after the relevant sentence was quoted.
Here's the next sentence:

Assuming you have enough Warp Charge points, you can alternate back and forth between the same Psyker units in this way, but no unit can attempt to manifest the same psychic power more than once per Psychic phase.

So no, it doesn't disallow that at all. Again, having a rulebook is a good thing when participating in rules discussions.

It also covers the situation of what happens if all your warp charges are used up before a psyker has had a chance to manifest a power, and basically says he's out of luck no matter what his mastery level is; no warp charges = no more manifestations.

How do the following rules not do that also?

To make a Psychic test, you will first need to expend a number of Warp Charge points; declare how many points you are spending and remove them from your pool. Then, roll a number of D6 equal to the number of Warp Charge points you have expended.

Since you can't roll 0d6...

Unless you have 0 Warp Charge points remaining, select one of your Psyker units, then nominate a psychic power known to that unit that you wish to manifest.

The amount of redundancy in here is amazing! According to your assumptions there's at least 3 places they said "no warp charges = no more manifestations." and that's with me only looking at the rules for 30 seconds...

 Tonberry7 wrote:
Yes. Any interpretation of that initial statement is always going to be from a RAI or HIWPI standpoint because it's just not explicit enough. If you follow the RAW for the psychic phase you can currently cast as many powers as you want if you meet the other rules requirements.

One of those RULES, are you may use as many powers as his mastery level.

I'd does not matter that tigurius ha 3 powers, plus force, and possibly a 5 the power due to psychic focus. He can still only manifest a max of 3, but now has a choice to make as to which he will use.

I'm with Hollismason on this, and would add further that some here just like to argue. I bet of those few they would argue the time of day it is in a clock shop with every clock set to the current time.

The bolded rule does not say you get to cast as many powers as that psyker has warp charges, or spells. It's says depends on mastery level. Simply put a LVL 3 casts 3' a LVL 1 casts 1. The reason they use the word depends, is because it means different things in different situations. Like LVL 1'vs a LVL 3.

Lungpickle wrote:

 Tonberry7 wrote:
Yes. Any interpretation of that initial statement is always going to be from a RAI or HIWPI standpoint because it's just not explicit enough. If you follow the RAW for the psychic phase you can currently cast as many powers as you want if you meet the other rules requirements.

One of those RULES, are you may use as many powers as his mastery level.

Except that's not what the rule states.

Lungpickle wrote:

 Tonberry7 wrote:
Yes. Any interpretation of that initial statement is always going to be from a RAI or HIWPI standpoint because it's just not explicit enough. If you follow the RAW for the psychic phase you can currently cast as many powers as you want if you meet the other rules requirements.

One of those RULES, are you may use as many powers as his mastery level.

I really wish that is what it said, because then we would have a clear and unambiguous rule. But it does not say that, hence this discussion on top of the previous multi-page discussion.

Bottom line. GW screwed it up and we don't know what they meant. And this argument will continue until they FAQ it. Soon, I hope.

Hollismason wrote:
I don't need magic cards, or some special insight, I can simply say " Okay through understanding and common sense, this is what this sentence meant". It's not being insulting , what's insulting is to purposefully be difficult in a argument and unyielding. That goes nowhere.

Do you genuinelly think that Psykers can cast all spells they know? If yes why? Then why have the statement, why not say " Casters can cast all spells they know".Why is this such a huge divergence from every single edition of the game. Why was this specific ruling made. Why was this statement not made this way?

Because of the assumption of the writer ,which is unfortunate as they should know better, that people would find it actually difficult to interpret.There's no "trick" in 40k the people who write this aren't trying to hide combos, they're not trying to "confuse" you on purpose. They are assuming that the reader is versed in the game and understanding of language that they will reach a logical not illogical conclusion to what they write.

That's my problem with it.

When I was a paramedic , there was this thing called implied consent.What this meant was that a person who could not give consent, due to being injured or unconscious, would want the best available treatement to them as that was a reasonable response.There's implied consent in the rules, they want you to enjoy the game and understand the rules in a simple and orderly fashion. Granted they could use a actual editor but the person who writes these is not trying to be willfully unclear.

If you take that statement to it's logical conclusion then you have to come to a reasonable assumption that the authorial intent was to right something simply that anyone could understand with out misinterpretation. They failed but that doesn't mean they are wrong or bad or that the rule is unclear. It's that you the reader are unwilling to view the rule in a clear and concise rational view.

Except you're horribly stretching the link to something like implied consent. If your patient is alert, and conscious, and writing things down for you.... he could still sue you if you treated him after he wrote "I want good treatment", and you assumed that meant he wanted to be RSI'd. Implied consent doesn't apply if they are talking to you / writing things for you like faq's.

K. Van Patten, EMT-P

For the underlined, if you actually read the rules (I suggest you do, as it seems apparent you havn't) they explicitly state you CAN do this.

You are correct, the following sentence provides additional information. Also, I have not yet received my copy of the rules, but I may still interpret information that is presented to me. The main point of my statement was to point out the prepositional and conditional phrase, "If, after attempting to manifest a psychic power". That phrase gives valuable context and rules out the possibility that this sentence determines how many psychic powers may be manifested by a psyker, as this number is determined before even the first attempt.

It also states that you can attempt to manifest another power in the same psyker unit. If my psyker is an IC and on his own, how can I do that, assuming your limitations (Other than the rules stating I can, as long as I have sufficient Warp Charges)

An independent character on its own, or unattached to any other unit, is itself a unit that consists of a single model.

Lungpickle wrote:

The bolded rule does not say you get to cast as many powers as that psyker has warp charges, or spells. It's says depends on mastery level. Simply put a LVL 3 casts 3' a LVL 1 casts 1. The reason they use the word depends, is because it means different things in different situations. Like LVL 1'vs a LVL 3.

No... It doesn't. You are inferring that is what it means based on rules from previous editions.

madric wrote:

For the underlined, if you actually read the rules (I suggest you do, as it seems apparent you havn't) they explicitly state you CAN do this.

You are correct, the following sentence provides additional information. Also, I have not yet received my copy of the rules, but I may still interpret information that is presented to me. The main point of my statement was to point out the prepositional and conditional phrase, "If, after attempting to manifest a psychic power". That phrase gives valuable context and rules out the possibility that this sentence determines how many psychic powers may be manifested by a psyker, as this number is determined before even the first attempt.

Unfortunately this means you're interpreting without having the rules to go by, which means you are (obviously) missing many rules. One line in an entire book of rules cannot be taken on its own, as you well know (context).

It also states that you can attempt to manifest another power in the same psyker unit. If my psyker is an IC and on his own, how can I do that, assuming your limitations (Other than the rules stating I can, as long as I have sufficient Warp Charges)

An independent character on its own, or unattached to any other unit, is itself a unit that consists of a single model.

Correct. And, let's take a Mastery Level 2 IC with 3 known powers, and enough warp charges to (at the very least attempt to) manifest all 3 has permission to do so or does not have permission to do so? Why (using rules)?

From what we discussed earlier.

That Independent Character with a Mastery Level of 2 would be able to attempt to manifest three powers, but he would only be able to actually use two of them because he is limited by his Mastery Level, If I recall what I wrote earlier correctly. A Psyker needs to first attempt to manifest a spell before he can use it and you would do each spell one at a time.

So, just for discussions sake, say I have a Mastery Level 2 Psyker with Foreboding, Forewarning and my Primaris. I have three powers, but as my Mastery Level is 2, I can only use two of them. I would then attempt to manifest these powers one at a time. Skipping ahead, I successfully manifest the Foreboding and the Forewarning. Since I have used two Psychic powers I am unable to attempt to use the Primaris because my limit for the allotment of spells I can use in a turn has been reached.

Or am I completely way off base here. This is how it is reads to me when I go over the section.

Correct. And, let's take a Mastery Level 2 IC with 3 known powers, and enough warp charges to (at the very least attempt to) manifest all 3 has permission to do so or does not have permission to do so? Why (using rules)?

Based on the two bits of rules presented in this thread (with the second quote being not applicable for determining the number of powers that can be manifested), the IC may use either 2 or 3, depending on what other examples in the book state. The analysis below indicates why the only possible relations allowed between ML and number of phychic powers that can be manifested is either the ML or ML+1. There should be at least 1 example in the book that clarifies what the actual relation is.

"The number of psychic powers a Psycher can use each turn depends on his Mastery Level". BWB (Big White Book?), page 22, paragraph 4.

I do not think this relationship is as unclear as people are making it out to be. In addition to the rule stating that the number of powers that can be manifested depends on mastery level, you also have to consider that nowhere else in the book does it indicate that the number of powers that can be manifested depends upon anything else.

Thus, two psychers with the same mastery level should be able to manifest the same number of powers. This actually rules out a lot of possibilities. There are units that have a number of powers that is more than their mastery level, and from the rule, we know that this cannot influence the number of powers manifested, only the mastery level can.

So let us figure out more specific limitations for the following:

Number of Powers = F( ML ), where F is some unknown function and ML is the psycher's Mastery Level.

Powers are countable, thus F > 0 for any ML.
F is NOT influenced by any other factors, such as the number of powers known.
F(ML) <= ML + (minimum 1d6 roll, which is 1), otherwise there would not be enough warp charges to even attempt to manifest powers.
This also implies that F(ML) must be linear.
F(ML) is NOT a constant, otherwise it would not depend on ML.

The only possibilities logically left are:
1) F(ML) = ML - 1
2) F(ML) = ML
3) F(ML) = ML + 1

Even though there are no ML 0 psychers, I think it is fair to eliminate option 1 because that would lead to -1 powers for a hypothetical ML0 psycher.

So the only possibilities left are:
F(ML) = ML --or-- F(ML) = ML + 1

I do not have a 7th edition book, but the final formula could be determined by looking for an example in the book that indicates how many powers a specific psycher can manifest.

 Lobomalo wrote:


So, just for discussions sake, say I have a Mastery Level 2 Psyker with Foreboding, Forewarning and my Primaris. I have three powers, but as my Mastery Level is 2, I can only use two of them.

There is nothing in this edition that says this. Again, you are taking rules from a previous edition and applying them here. The only limit in this book is the same unit cannot cast the same power twice.

madric, your entire argument is based on a logical leap that the number of powers a psycher can cast is based solely on ML.

The sentence you are drawing this from does not support that statement. Saying F depends on ML does not mean F does not also depend on some other factor.

To demonstrate this...

F = ML + X

In this example F depends on ML. F also depends on X. All the rulebook currently tells us is that F depends on ML. No other information was given on the relationship between ML and F.

Zimko wrote:
madric, your entire argument is based on a logical leap that the number of powers a psycher can cast is based solely on ML.

Actually the entire argument of the other party is based on a logical leap that the number of powers a psyker can manifest is based on ML plus other stuff.

We have a single statement that quantifies the number of powers a psyker can cast, yet the common opposition seeks to include an entirely separate statement from another section as evidence of the complex relationships of such a dependency, with no rules support... just wild assumptions and reaching theories.

 Lobomalo wrote:


From what we discussed earlier.

That Independent Character with a Mastery Level of 2 would be able to attempt to manifest three powers, but he would only be able to actually use two of them because he is limited by his Mastery Level, If I recall what I wrote earlier correctly. A Psyker needs to first attempt to manifest a spell before he can use it and you would do each spell one at a time.

In the context of the rules I would have to say that use = manifest (since the rules discuss manifesting powers and the ability to continue to do so until out of warp charges with only the one unqualified/unquantified line using the word "use"). There is nothing in the rules that defines a failed attempt as non-used (or the alternate, a successful attempt = a "used" power).

You are adding limitations that are non-existant in the rules (relying on the unqualified and unquantified "depends on the psykers ML" statement).

Kyutaru wrote:

Zimko wrote:
madric, your entire argument is based on a logical leap that the number of powers a psycher can cast is based solely on ML.

Actually the entire argument of the other party is based on a logical leap that the number of powers a psyker can manifest is based on ML plus other stuff.

No - what we're saying is that limiting it to solely ML isn't supported by the rules so saying "cast all you want" is against the rules is incorrect.

Kyutaru wrote:

Zimko wrote:
madric, your entire argument is based on a logical leap that the number of powers a psycher can cast is based solely on ML.

Actually the entire argument of the other party is based on a logical leap that the number of powers a psyker can manifest is based on ML plus other stuff.

No, the other party is basicly ignoring the rule because it doesn't give enough information to be applied to the rules. The rest of the rules for the psychic phase give enough information that the quoted rule isn't relevant.

The 7th ed book indicates a pskyer can cast each power it knows once per turn. mastery level strongly dictates how many powers you know, hence the rule text you are quoting. This is further limited by warp charge dice. However, since 7th pools the dice, it is much easier for more dice of warp power to be allocated to a psyker than they themselves generate (a level 1 demon could use 8 dice to cast the demonology primaris if another pskyer is available and they rolled well)

There is a permissive rule that says I can cast any power a pskyer knows with any number of warp charge dice. It is followed by a rule saying I may only attempt a power once from each pskyer who knows said power. The last rule says I may continue casting until I run or of dice. I know of know other rules. I believe this supports my above position.

madric wrote:

Correct. And, let's take a Mastery Level 2 IC with 3 known powers, and enough warp charges to (at the very least attempt to) manifest all 3 has permission to do so or does not have permission to do so? Why (using rules)?

Based on the two bits of rules presented in this thread (with the second quote being not applicable for determining the number of powers that can be manifested), the IC may use either 2 or 3, depending on what other examples in the book state. The analysis below indicates why the only possible relations allowed between ML and number of phychic powers that can be manifested is either the ML or ML+1. There should be at least 1 example in the book that clarifies what the actual relation is.

But I have permission to continue to manifest powers until out of warp charges. Why are you ignoring that rule in favor of one that does not quantify or qualify (in any way, your assumed calculations being irrelavant as they have no rules basis) how many you may manifest, specifically?

 Green is Best! wrote:

 Lobomalo wrote:


So, just for discussions sake, say I have a Mastery Level 2 Psyker with Foreboding, Forewarning and my Primaris. I have three powers, but as my Mastery Level is 2, I can only use two of them.

There is nothing in this edition that says this. Again, you are taking rules from a previous edition and applying them here. The only limit in this book is the same unit cannot cast the same power twice.

I have never played a previous edition. This is straight from the 7th edition rulebook.

Please, don't take out a part of my post and assume something, it is not polite.

madric wrote:

Correct. And, let's take a Mastery Level 2 IC with 3 known powers, and enough warp charges to (at the very least attempt to) manifest all 3 has permission to do so or does not have permission to do so? Why (using rules)?

Based on the two bits of rules presented in this thread (with the second quote being not applicable for determining the number of powers that can be manifested), the IC may use either 2 or 3, depending on what other examples in the book state. The analysis below indicates why the only possible relations allowed between ML and number of phychic powers that can be manifested is either the ML or ML+1. There should be at least 1 example in the book that clarifies what the actual relation is.

"The number of psychic powers a Psycher can use each turn depends on his Mastery Level". BWB (Big White Book?), page 22, paragraph 4.

I do not think this relationship is as unclear as people are making it out to be. In addition to the rule stating that the number of powers that can be manifested depends on mastery level, you also have to consider that nowhere else in the book does it indicate that the number of powers that can be manifested depends upon anything else.

Thus, two psychers with the same mastery level should be able to manifest the same number of powers. This actually rules out a lot of possibilities. There are units that have a number of powers that is more than their mastery level, and from the rule, we know that this cannot influence the number of powers manifested, only the mastery level can.

So let us figure out more specific limitations for the following:

Number of Powers = F( ML ), where F is some unknown function and ML is the psycher's Mastery Level.

Powers are countable, thus F > 0 for any ML.
F is NOT influenced by any other factors, such as the number of powers known.
F(ML) <= ML + (minimum 1d6 roll, which is 1), otherwise there would not be enough warp charges to even attempt to manifest powers.
This also implies that F(ML) must be linear.
F(ML) is NOT a constant, otherwise it would not depend on ML.

The only possibilities logically left are:
1) F(ML) = ML - 1
2) F(ML) = ML
3) F(ML) = ML + 1

Even though there are no ML 0 psychers, I think it is fair to eliminate option 1 because that would lead to -1 powers for a hypothetical ML0 psycher.

So the only possibilities left are:
F(ML) = ML --or-- F(ML) = ML + 1

I do not have a 7th edition book, but the final formula could be determined by looking for an example in the book that indicates how many powers a specific psycher can manifest.

Actually read that analysis none of it is really based on fact. You claim it must not be exponential for no reason other than there would not be enough warp charge. Given that the whole reasoning is based on it not being dependant on other factors saying that it must be linear due to another factor is frankly bizarre. Having decided based on literally nothing that it must be linear you then leap to it being +/-1 this time without even pretending to have a reason.

So using actual rules not bluster explain why it can't be ML+1000 or MLx1000. Rather than your arbitrarily chosen +/-1. Any actual evidence to support the conclusion?

I think we should actually look at what they've said. They exclusively use manifest in relation to activating powers and yet the word "use" is here talking about dependence on Mastery Level. To me this tells us that this is fluff text rather than rules and it goes on to tell us about how powerful psykers are which again supports this being narrative text rather than functional rules text.

Zimko wrote:

Kyutaru wrote:

Zimko wrote:
madric, your entire argument is based on a logical leap that the number of powers a psycher can cast is based solely on ML.

Actually the entire argument of the other party is based on a logical leap that the number of powers a psyker can manifest is based on ML plus other stuff.

No, the other party is basicly ignoring the rule because it doesn't give enough information to be applied to the rules. The rest of the rules for the psychic phase give enough information that the quoted rule isn't relevant.

When we start picking and choosing which rules we obey and which we don't, we enter the realm of House rulings. The statements referenced have no correlation to the number of powers that may be manifested, merely the limitations imposed by warp charges... an important distinction since previously the warp charges applied to individuals and were not some collective pool of resources. The only rule that does have any reference to the number of powers allowed conveniently is being ignored. It's hardly irrelevant when it's more specific than the general instructions of the manifesting sequence.

Kyutaru wrote:

Zimko wrote:

Kyutaru wrote:

Zimko wrote:
madric, your entire argument is based on a logical leap that the number of powers a psycher can cast is based solely on ML.

Actually the entire argument of the other party is based on a logical leap that the number of powers a psyker can manifest is based on ML plus other stuff.

No, the other party is basicly ignoring the rule because it doesn't give enough information to be applied to the rules. The rest of the rules for the psychic phase give enough information that the quoted rule isn't relevant.

When we start picking and choosing which rules we obey and which we don't, we enter the realm of House rulings. The statements referenced have no correlation to the number of powers that may be manifested, merely the limitations imposed by warp charges... an important distinction since previously the warp charges applied to individuals and were not some collective pool of resources. The only rule that does have any reference to the number of powers allowed conveniently is being ignored. It's hardly irrelevant when it's more specific than the general instructions of the manifesting sequence.

If a caster knows 4 powers then he can only cast 4 powers per turn. This is determined by the psyker's mastery level.

Using this... is the number of powers my psyker can cast depending on the ML? yes... it's how I determined how many powers he knows.

 Lobomalo wrote:

 Green is Best! wrote:

 Lobomalo wrote:


So, just for discussions sake, say I have a Mastery Level 2 Psyker with Foreboding, Forewarning and my Primaris. I have three powers, but as my Mastery Level is 2, I can only use two of them.

There is nothing in this edition that says this. Again, you are taking rules from a previous edition and applying them here. The only limit in this book is the same unit cannot cast the same power twice.

I have never played a previous edition. This is straight from the 7th edition rulebook.

Please, don't take out a part of my post and assume something, it is not polite.

Quote the rule then. I think you'll find it doesn't exist and you're thinking of the rule that's been quoted often in this thread - which doesn't say what you think it says.

Zimko wrote:
If a caster knows 4 powers then he can only cast 4 powers per turn. This is determined by the psyker's mastery level.

Please explain non-Focused Psykers (1 less power), non-Staffed Psykers (1 less power), specific power units (high Mastery, low powers), and characters like Be'lakor (Mastery Level 3, Powers Known 7).

In your system, Mastery Level is a joke with a bad punch line. THAT is when it truly becomes irrelevant.

 Lobomalo wrote:
Not sure if this helps or not, but under the Mastery Levels heading in the Psyker Phase section it states that,

"The number of psychic powers a Psyker can use each turn depends on his Mastery Level."

The rule was already posted by me a few hours ago. It tells you how many you can "use" per turn.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

rigeld2 wrote:

 Lobomalo wrote:

 Green is Best! wrote:

 Lobomalo wrote:


So, just for discussions sake, say I have a Mastery Level 2 Psyker with Foreboding, Forewarning and my Primaris. I have three powers, but as my Mastery Level is 2, I can only use two of them.

There is nothing in this edition that says this. Again, you are taking rules from a previous edition and applying them here. The only limit in this book is the same unit cannot cast the same power twice.

I have never played a previous edition. This is straight from the 7th edition rulebook.

Please, don't take out a part of my post and assume something, it is not polite.

Quote the rule then. I think you'll find it doesn't exist and you're thinking of the rule that's been quoted often in this thread - which doesn't say what you think it says.

Posted for you to look at.

There is nothing in the Psyker section that states anything negating this rule.

Kyutaru wrote:

Zimko wrote:
madric, your entire argument is based on a logical leap that the number of powers a psycher can cast is based solely on ML.

Actually the entire argument of the other party is based on a logical leap that the number of powers a psyker can manifest is based on ML plus other stuff.

We have a single statement that quantifies the number of powers a psyker can cast, yet the common opposition seeks to include an entirely separate statement from another section as evidence of the complex relationships of such a dependency, with no rules support... just wild assumptions and reaching theories.

Actually the rules force the amount of powers you can manifest being dependant on other factors for instance Warp Charge dice. Or are you now claiming that every psyker I have gets to auto manifest any powers he has left to cast once I run out of dice? So lets say I have 2 lvl3 Psykers I chuck my entire Warp Charge pool at the first power. By the logic number of powers I can use is ONLY dependant on level that Psyker must he allowed to cast 2 more and the other must be able to cast all 3 right?

 Lobomalo wrote:

 Lobomalo wrote:
Not sure if this helps or not, but under the Mastery Levels heading in the Psyker Phase section it states that,

"The number of psychic powers a Psyker can use each turn depends on his Mastery Level."

The rule was already posted by me a few hours ago. It tells you how many you can "use" per turn.

I see that it depends on his Mastery Level. I do not see that it is equal to his Mastery Level.

In other words, you haven't even read the thread and just wanted to jump in.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Kyutaru wrote:

Zimko wrote:
If a caster knows 4 powers then he can only cast 4 powers per turn. This is determined by the psyker's mastery level.

Please explain non-Focused Psykers (1 less power), non-Staffed Psykers (1 less power), specific power units (high Mastery, low powers), and characters like Be'lakor (Mastery Level 3, Powers Known 7).

In your system, Mastery Level is a joke with a bad punch line. THAT is when it truly becomes irrelevant.

Um. Mastery Level determines number of Warp Charges per turn - hardly irrelevant.

rigeld2 wrote:

 Lobomalo wrote:

 Lobomalo wrote:
Not sure if this helps or not, but under the Mastery Levels heading in the Psyker Phase section it states that,

"The number of psychic powers a Psyker can use each turn depends on his Mastery Level."

The rule was already posted by me a few hours ago. It tells you how many you can "use" per turn.

I see that it depends on his Mastery Level. I do not see that it is equal to his Mastery Level.

In other words, you haven't even read the thread and just wanted to jump in.

Excuse me, I have read the entire thread, multiple times in fact. You guys are getting caught up on the manifestation part of the rules and saying you should be able to get more because there isn't anything saying that you cannot.

 FlingitNow wrote:

Kyutaru wrote:

Zimko wrote:
madric, your entire argument is based on a logical leap that the number of powers a psycher can cast is based solely on ML.

Actually the entire argument of the other party is based on a logical leap that the number of powers a psyker can manifest is based on ML plus other stuff.

We have a single statement that quantifies the number of powers a psyker can cast, yet the common opposition seeks to include an entirely separate statement from another section as evidence of the complex relationships of such a dependency, with no rules support... just wild assumptions and reaching theories.

Actually the rules force the amount of powers you can manifest being dependant on other factors for instance Warp Charge dice. Or are you now claiming that every psyker I have gets to auto manifest any powers he has left to cast once I run out of dice? So lets say I have 2 lvl3 Psykers I chuck my entire Warp Charge pool at the first power. By the logic number of powers I can use is ONLY dependant on level that Psyker must he allowed to cast 2 more and the other must be able to cast all 3 right?

So you're saying you want to go ahead and cast 5 more powers using no Warp Charge dice? Be my guest. Let's see how many successes you roll on zero.

Being out of mana doesn't mean being out of spells per turn.

Kyutaru wrote:

Zimko wrote:
If a caster knows 4 powers then he can only cast 4 powers per turn. This is determined by the psyker's mastery level.

Please explain non-Focused Psykers (1 less power), non-Staffed Psykers (1 less power), specific power units (high Mastery, low powers), and characters like Be'lakor (Mastery Level 3, Powers Known 7).

In your system, Mastery Level is a joke with a bad punch line. THAT is when it truly becomes irrelevant.

As with all permissive rules, "Unless otherwise stated" is a very important thing. It's actually a given. And the cases you just cited would fall under "unless otherwise noted" as they are more specific than the general rules for psykers. (** Zimko explained even better)
Not to mention ML determining Warp Charges, so it's not irrelevant in any way.

Depends on =/= equal to

Kyutaru wrote:

Zimko wrote:
If a caster knows 4 powers then he can only cast 4 powers per turn. This is determined by the psyker's mastery level.

Please explain non-Focused Psykers (1 less power), non-Staffed Psykers (1 less power), specific power units (high Mastery, low powers), and characters like Be'lakor (Mastery Level 3, Powers Known 7).

In your system, Mastery Level is a joke with a bad punch line. THAT is when it truly becomes irrelevant.

Ok... lets say I have a ML 2 pyker.

Focused/Force: 4 powers
Focused only: 3 powers
Force only: 3 powers
none: 2 powers

In all of those cases, the number is dependant on the mastery level and therefore meets the criteria for the rule "The number of psychic powers a Psyker can use each turn depends on his Mastery Level." Because if his mastery level were 1 then all those numbers would be 1 less. 3 then 1 more.

In the case of Be'lakor, I'd call him a special case since his powers given to him by the codex and not determined by the rulebook. In that case having a Mastery Level becomes relevant for generating warp charges and therefore is not a 'joke'.

Actually read that analysis none of it is really based on fact. You claim it must not be exponential for no reason other than there would not be enough warp charge. Given that the whole reasoning is based on it not being dependant on other factors saying that it must be linear due to another factor is frankly bizarre.

At a minimum, a power must take at least 1 warp charge. It is well within reason to conclude that the rules would not be written to allow more powers to be manifested than even the maximum number of warp charges. So relations like F(ML) = ML^6 + 32 can easily be ruled out. The only exponent and coefficient that stays within bounds of the number of warp charges is 1 (exponent) and 1 (coefficient). So the formula is of the form F(ML) = ML + X.

Having decided based on literally nothing that it must be linear you then leap to it being +/-1 this time without even pretending to have a reason.
So using actual rules not bluster explain why it can't be ML+1000 or MLx1000. Rather than your arbitrarily chosen +/-1. Any actual evidence to support the conclusion?

This is also determined from the fact that a psyker cannot manifest more powers than is possible. When rolling warp charges, the roll can range from 1 to 6, with a minimum being 1. So the minimum total amount of warp charges available is 2. I was trying my best to be clear with my reasoning, but the details I laid out were quite long as they were written. Please be more specific in your question. Is your claim that the number of manifested powers should be ML + 20, or something of the sort?

I think we should actually look at what they've said. They exclusively use manifest in relation to activating powers and yet the word "use" is here talking about dependence on Mastery Level. To me this tells us that this is fluff text rather than rules and it goes on to tell us about how powerful psykers are which again supports this being narrative text rather than functional rules text.

I'm not sure what you are stating here. Are you stating that the section the quote from the original poster was not intended to be part of the rules? I was under the presumption that concepts such as "mastery level" are a game mechanic, and have little meaning in terms of fluff. It might have a fluff meaning as a vague concept, but certainly not as a specific integer.

 Lobomalo wrote:
Excuse me, I have read the entire thread, multiple times in fact. You guys are getting caught up on the manifestation part of the rules and saying you should be able to get more because there isn't anything saying that you cannot.

We have permission to manifest a power. Correct?
I pick this Psyker here. He's already manifested 1 power and he's ML1. Is this legal or not? Please cite the rule denying it.

Zimko wrote:
In the case of Be'lakor, I'd call him a special case since his powers given to him by the codex and not determined by the rulebook. In that case having a Mastery Level becomes relevant for generating warp charges and therefore is not a 'joke'.

Except then you're not limited by the Psyker's mastery level. You're limited by the mastery level of every psyker unit in your army. I can theoretically cast all seven of Be'lakor's powers by taking a few Heralds as warp charge batteries. The number of powers I can manifest has no dependency on Be'lakor's mastery level at all. It becomes completely irrelevant as long as I have Heralds.

Plus, you're forgetting that units like the Pink Horrors generate more warp charges than their mastery level. How do they fit into your theory?

Kyutaru wrote:

Zimko wrote:
In the case of Be'lakor, I'd call him a special case since his powers given to him by the codex and not determined by the rulebook. In that case having a Mastery Level becomes relevant for generating warp charges and therefore is not a 'joke'.

Except then you're not limited by the Psyker's mastery level. You're limited by the mastery level of every psyker unit in your army. I can theoretically cast all seven of Be'lakor's powers by taking a few Heralds as warp charge batteries. The number of powers I can manifest has no dependency on Be'lakor's mastery level at all. It becomes completely irrelevant as long as I have Heralds.

In that case you are not limited by the ML, correct. The codex is granting him these powers and can therefore bypass that rule from the rulebook.

rigeld2 wrote:

 Lobomalo wrote:
Excuse me, I have read the entire thread, multiple times in fact. You guys are getting caught up on the manifestation part of the rules and saying you should be able to get more because there isn't anything saying that you cannot.

We have permission to manifest a power. Correct?
I pick this Psyker here. He's already manifested 1 power and he's ML1. Is this legal or not? Please cite the rule denying it.

Successfully manifesting and resolving a power is using a power, yes or no?

I am not denying that you manifest powers to use them, you have to or you cannot use them. What I am saying is that the rules as I read them state that the limit a Psyker can use is based on his Mastery Level.

You have to manifest a power before you can use it.

You can either look at the word manifest as a successful resolution of the power from which it is being used as a verb, an action, then he is using a power, or you can look at the section where it says resolving a power as using a power and the word resolve then takes the place for use.

Either way, as I read them, you have to use a power to actually use it so you are limited by your Mastery Level.

 DeathReaper wrote:

Hollismason wrote:
the person who writes these is not trying to be willfully unclear.

See, this is a wild assumption, you have no idea if the person writing the rules was trying to be clear or not.

We hope he was not "trying to be willfully unclear" but he may have been "trying to be willfully unclear" we simply can not say with any certainty if he was or not.

Sure because everyone who is writing a book says " Lets make this a mess and see if anyone notices."

Kyutaru wrote:

Zimko wrote:
In the case of Be'lakor, I'd call him a special case since his powers given to him by the codex and not determined by the rulebook. In that case having a Mastery Level becomes relevant for generating warp charges and therefore is not a 'joke'.

Except then you're not limited by the Psyker's mastery level. You're limited by the mastery level of every psyker unit in your army. I can theoretically cast all seven of Be'lakor's powers by taking a few Heralds as warp charge batteries. The number of powers I can manifest has no dependency on Be'lakor's mastery level at all. It becomes completely irrelevant as long as I have Heralds.

His ML does come in to play (adds warp charges to the army as a whole), so how is it not dependant? Unless you're saying dependant = equal to (which is not necessarily the case. Something can be dependant on a particular item, but that does not mean that is the only factor).

Plus, you're forgetting that units like the Pink Horrors generate more warp charges than their mastery level. How do they fit into your theory?

What does that have to do with it (honest question)?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Zimko wrote:

Kyutaru wrote:

Zimko wrote:
In the case of Be'lakor, I'd call him a special case since his powers given to him by the codex and not determined by the rulebook. In that case having a Mastery Level becomes relevant for generating warp charges and therefore is not a 'joke'.

Except then you're not limited by the Psyker's mastery level. You're limited by the mastery level of every psyker unit in your army. I can theoretically cast all seven of Be'lakor's powers by taking a few Heralds as warp charge batteries. The number of powers I can manifest has no dependency on Be'lakor's mastery level at all. It becomes completely irrelevant as long as I have Heralds.

In that case you are not limited by the ML, correct. The codex is granting him these powers and can therefore bypass that rule from the rulebook.

Which fits the "unless otherwise noted" state. All rules are as they are, unless otherwise overridden by another, more specific rule.

Kyutaru wrote:

Zimko wrote:
In the case of Be'lakor, I'd call him a special case since his powers given to him by the codex and not determined by the rulebook. In that case having a Mastery Level becomes relevant for generating warp charges and therefore is not a 'joke'.

Plus, you're forgetting that units like the Pink Horrors generate more warp charges than their mastery level. How do they fit into your theory?

Because they only know 2 powers and are limited to 2 because of their ML? You're trying to find examples where ML doesn't limit Known Powers and in most cases it does. That's why it is a general rule in the rulebook. I'd even go so far as to say that it was intentionally vague because of these exceptions but that is assuming too much.

Zimko wrote:

Kyutaru wrote:

Zimko wrote:
In the case of Be'lakor, I'd call him a special case since his powers given to him by the codex and not determined by the rulebook. In that case having a Mastery Level becomes relevant for generating warp charges and therefore is not a 'joke'.

Except then you're not limited by the Psyker's mastery level. You're limited by the mastery level of every psyker unit in your army. I can theoretically cast all seven of Be'lakor's powers by taking a few Heralds as warp charge batteries. The number of powers I can manifest has no dependency on Be'lakor's mastery level at all. It becomes completely irrelevant as long as I have Heralds.

In that case you are not limited by the ML, correct. The codex is granting him these powers and can therefore bypass that rule from the rulebook.

I would agree if the codex actually stated a rule that increased the number of powers he may manifest. But since the codex doesn't do so, one would think you're still limited to any rulebook restrictions on the number of powers you may manifest. Which as you just stated has nothing to do with ML at this point. That's where I see the disconnect. The rules say the number of powers depends on mastery level, then we have guys that break that rule, yet the codex doesn't also grant them increased manifesting power. We're left to "assume" they meant powers are the limit despite that breaking the very rule itself with no explanation or reason for it. Codex does normally override the rulebook, but only if it specifically does so. Nothing specifically overrules the limits on Be'lakor's manifesting ability without throwing his mastery level out the window.

Kyutaru wrote:

Zimko wrote:

Kyutaru wrote:

Zimko wrote:
In the case of Be'lakor, I'd call him a special case since his powers given to him by the codex and not determined by the rulebook. In that case having a Mastery Level becomes relevant for generating warp charges and therefore is not a 'joke'.

Except then you're not limited by the Psyker's mastery level. You're limited by the mastery level of every psyker unit in your army. I can theoretically cast all seven of Be'lakor's powers by taking a few Heralds as warp charge batteries. The number of powers I can manifest has no dependency on Be'lakor's mastery level at all. It becomes completely irrelevant as long as I have Heralds.

In that case you are not limited by the ML, correct. The codex is granting him these powers and can therefore bypass that rule from the rulebook.

I would agree if the codex actually stated a rule that increased the number of powers he may manifest. But since the codex doesn't do so, one would think you're still limited to any rulebook restrictions on the number of powers you may manifest. Which as you just stated has nothing to do with ML at this point. That's where I see the disconnect. The rules say the number of powers depends on mastery level, then we have guys that break that rule, yet the codex doesn't also grant them increased manifesting power. We're left to "assume" they meant powers are the limit despite that breaking the very rule itself with no explanation or reason for it. Codex does normally override the rulebook, but only if it specifically does so. Nothing specifically overrules the limits on Be'lakor's manifesting ability without throwing his mastery level out the window.

Right, so the rule "The number of psychic powers a Psyker can use each turn depends on his Mastery Level." doesn't explain anything. It is a vague rule that is mostly true due to each psyker being limited by his known powers and warp charges but isn't absolutely true.

RAW we can't actually determine anything from this rule.

HIWPI: I choose to ignore this sentence because it adds nothing to the rules at large. The rest of the psychic phase creates enough limitations on individual psykers to make the psychic phase playable and not busted. Having to keep track of known powers and which ones were already cast is enough of a limiting factor. Daemon factory is the only exception and frankly if someone wants to play it and keep track of which powers have been cast and how many per psyker then more power to them.

Kyutaru wrote:

Zimko wrote:

Kyutaru wrote:

Zimko wrote:
In the case of Be'lakor, I'd call him a special case since his powers given to him by the codex and not determined by the rulebook. In that case having a Mastery Level becomes relevant for generating warp charges and therefore is not a 'joke'.

Except then you're not limited by the Psyker's mastery level. You're limited by the mastery level of every psyker unit in your army. I can theoretically cast all seven of Be'lakor's powers by taking a few Heralds as warp charge batteries. The number of powers I can manifest has no dependency on Be'lakor's mastery level at all. It becomes completely irrelevant as long as I have Heralds.

In that case you are not limited by the ML, correct. The codex is granting him these powers and can therefore bypass that rule from the rulebook.

I would agree if the codex actually stated a rule that increased the number of powers he may manifest. But since the codex doesn't do so, one would think you're still limited to any rulebook restrictions on the number of powers you may manifest. Which as you just stated has nothing to do with ML at this point. That's where I see the disconnect.

ML determines warp charges and the number of warp charges generated dictates how many powers may be cast in any given psychic phase. There is your connection that you seem to fail to see.

The rules say the number of powers depends on mastery level, then we have guys that break that rule, yet the codex doesn't also grant them increased manifesting power. We're left to "assume" they meant powers are the limit despite that breaking the very rule itself with no explanation or reason for it. Codex does normally override the rulebook, but only if it specifically does so. Nothing specifically overrules the limits on Be'lakor's manifesting ability without throwing his mastery level out the window.

No rule is being broken. If there is a limit indicated for specific psykers in any given codex, that is more specific than the general psyker rules. Mastery level is still being used to determine warp charges however, even if the psyker cannot make use of them all for whatever reason.

Kyutaru wrote:

 FlingitNow wrote:

Kyutaru wrote:

Zimko wrote:
madric, your entire argument is based on a logical leap that the number of powers a psycher can cast is based solely on ML.

Actually the entire argument of the other party is based on a logical leap that the number of powers a psyker can manifest is based on ML plus other stuff.

We have a single statement that quantifies the number of powers a psyker can cast, yet the common opposition seeks to include an entirely separate statement from another section as evidence of the complex relationships of such a dependency, with no rules support... just wild assumptions and reaching theories.

Actually the rules force the amount of powers you can manifest being dependant on other factors for instance Warp Charge dice. Or are you now claiming that every psyker I have gets to auto manifest any powers he has left to cast once I run out of dice? So lets say I have 2 lvl3 Psykers I chuck my entire Warp Charge pool at the first power. By the logic number of powers I can use is ONLY dependant on level that Psyker must he allowed to cast 2 more and the other must be able to cast all 3 right?

So you're saying you want to go ahead and cast 5 more powers using no Warp Charge dice? Be my guest. Let's see how many successes you roll on zero.

Being out of mana doesn't mean being out of spells per turn.

Yet the rules expressly forbid this:

BrB page 24 "If, after resolving a psychic action - such as manifesting a psychic power - the player whose turn it is has 0 Warp Charge points remaining, the Psychic Phase ends."

So who is wrong you or the rules?

 Lobomalo wrote:
What I am saying is that the rules as I read them state that the limit a Psyker can use is based on his Mastery Level..

Which is the entire problem. Because what the rules don't say is that the limit a Psyker can use is equal to his Mastery Level.

That link simply doesn't exist. We are told the ML determines how many powers you can cast, but we are not told how it does so.

 FlingitNow wrote:

Kyutaru wrote:

 FlingitNow wrote:

Kyutaru wrote:

Zimko wrote:
madric, your entire argument is based on a logical leap that the number of powers a psycher can cast is based solely on ML.

Actually the entire argument of the other party is based on a logical leap that the number of powers a psyker can manifest is based on ML plus other stuff.

We have a single statement that quantifies the number of powers a psyker can cast, yet the common opposition seeks to include an entirely separate statement from another section as evidence of the complex relationships of such a dependency, with no rules support... just wild assumptions and reaching theories.

Actually the rules force the amount of powers you can manifest being dependant on other factors for instance Warp Charge dice. Or are you now claiming that every psyker I have gets to auto manifest any powers he has left to cast once I run out of dice? So lets say I have 2 lvl3 Psykers I chuck my entire Warp Charge pool at the first power. By the logic number of powers I can use is ONLY dependant on level that Psyker must he allowed to cast 2 more and the other must be able to cast all 3 right?

So you're saying you want to go ahead and cast 5 more powers using no Warp Charge dice? Be my guest. Let's see how many successes you roll on zero.

Being out of mana doesn't mean being out of spells per turn.

Yet the rules expressly forbid this:

BrB page 24 "If, after resolving a psychic action - such as manifesting a psychic power - the player whose turn it is has 0 Warp Charge points remaining, the Psychic Phase ends."

So who is wrong you or the rules?

Neither, I stated that because it's irrelevant to desire to manifest powers when no Warp Charge remain to be capable of doing so. The rules expressly forbid models from shooting more than one weapon, yet some are able to shoot two of them. You may continue manifesting powers until you reach one of the predetermined rule breaks, namely either running out of warp charges OR hitting your mastery level cap. The better question is why people think only one of these can ever apply. BOTH are capable of stopping you from being able to manifest. Either you hit your limit or your ran out of fuel.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Rorschach9 wrote:

Kyutaru wrote:

Zimko wrote:

Kyutaru wrote:

Zimko wrote:
In the case of Be'lakor, I'd call him a special case since his powers given to him by the codex and not determined by the rulebook. In that case having a Mastery Level becomes relevant for generating warp charges and therefore is not a 'joke'.

Except then you're not limited by the Psyker's mastery level. You're limited by the mastery level of every psyker unit in your army. I can theoretically cast all seven of Be'lakor's powers by taking a few Heralds as warp charge batteries. The number of powers I can manifest has no dependency on Be'lakor's mastery level at all. It becomes completely irrelevant as long as I have Heralds.

In that case you are not limited by the ML, correct. The codex is granting him these powers and can therefore bypass that rule from the rulebook.

I would agree if the codex actually stated a rule that increased the number of powers he may manifest. But since the codex doesn't do so, one would think you're still limited to any rulebook restrictions on the number of powers you may manifest. Which as you just stated has nothing to do with ML at this point. That's where I see the disconnect.

ML determines warp charges and the number of warp charges generated dictates how many powers may be cast in any given psychic phase. There is your connection that you seem to fail to see.

Which was already addressed in the section you quoted (see my post beginning with Except). Thanks for making me repeat myself.

"The number of powers A PSYKER may manifest is determined by HIS mastery level."

A psyker = one, not every Psyker unit in the game combined
His mastery level = His bloody mastery level, not your entire army's combined mastery level

Kyutaru wrote:
The better question is why people think only one of these can ever apply. BOTH are capable of stopping you from being able to manifest. Either you hit your limit or your ran out of fuel.

You're absolutley right, there is no reason why both can't apply.

The problem being that the rule isn't clear that there is a casting limit, or if there is what it is.

Neither, I stated that because it's irrelevant to desire to manifest powers when no Warp Charge remain to be capable of doing so. The rules expressly forbid models from shooting more than one weapon, yet some are able to shoot two of them. You may continue manifesting powers until you reach one of the predetermined rule breaks, namely either running out of warp charges OR hitting your mastery level cap.

So you agree that the number of powers you can use is not solely dependant on Mastery Level as you previously claimed.

So the cap on number of powers (beyond Warp Charge) how are you determining that? As you agree that the number of powers a Psyker can manifest is dependent on more than JUST ML. So what rules are you using to determine the cap?

 insaniak wrote:

 Lobomalo wrote:
What I am saying is that the rules as I read them state that the limit a Psyker can use is based on his Mastery Level..

Which is the entire problem. Because what the rules don't say is that the limit a Psyker can use is equal to his Mastery Level.

That link simply doesn't exist. We are told the ML determines how many powers you can cast, but we are not told how it does so.

I see and you're right, it does not link the two together. Assuming so is more of an opinion than a fact. Would it be best to simply decide between your opponent at the time then?

Kyutaru wrote:

Rorschach9 wrote:

Kyutaru wrote:

Zimko wrote:

Kyutaru wrote:

Zimko wrote:
In the case of Be'lakor, I'd call him a special case since his powers given to him by the codex and not determined by the rulebook. In that case having a Mastery Level becomes relevant for generating warp charges and therefore is not a 'joke'.

Except then you're not limited by the Psyker's mastery level. You're limited by the mastery level of every psyker unit in your army. I can theoretically cast all seven of Be'lakor's powers by taking a few Heralds as warp charge batteries. The number of powers I can manifest has no dependency on Be'lakor's mastery level at all. It becomes completely irrelevant as long as I have Heralds.

In that case you are not limited by the ML, correct. The codex is granting him these powers and can therefore bypass that rule from the rulebook.

I would agree if the codex actually stated a rule that increased the number of powers he may manifest. But since the codex doesn't do so, one would think you're still limited to any rulebook restrictions on the number of powers you may manifest. Which as you just stated has nothing to do with ML at this point. That's where I see the disconnect.

ML determines warp charges and the number of warp charges generated dictates how many powers may be cast in any given psychic phase. There is your connection that you seem to fail to see.

Which was already addressed in the section you quoted (see my post beginning with Except). Thanks for making me repeat myself.

"The number of powers A PSYKER may manifest is determined by HIS mastery level."

A psyker = one, not every Psyker unit in the game combined
His mastery level = His bloody mastery level, not your entire army's combined mastery level

That (the underlined) is not what the sentence says, so I imagine that must be why you cannot see the connection.



Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Lobomalo wrote:

 insaniak wrote:

 Lobomalo wrote:
What I am saying is that the rules as I read them state that the limit a Psyker can use is based on his Mastery Level..

Which is the entire problem. Because what the rules don't say is that the limit a Psyker can use is equal to his Mastery Level.

That link simply doesn't exist. We are told the ML determines how many powers you can cast, but we are not told how it does so.

I see and you're right, it does not link the two together. Assuming so is more of an opinion than a fact. Would it be best to simply decide between your opponent at the time then?

Until/unless FAQ/Erratta'd, this is the only way to go about it as the rules are not otherwise clear enough.

 FlingitNow wrote:

Neither, I stated that because it's irrelevant to desire to manifest powers when no Warp Charge remain to be capable of doing so. The rules expressly forbid models from shooting more than one weapon, yet some are able to shoot two of them. You may continue manifesting powers until you reach one of the predetermined rule breaks, namely either running out of warp charges OR hitting your mastery level cap.

So you agree that the number of powers you can use is not solely dependant on Mastery Level as you previously claimed?

Cite source, please. Stated that the number of powers is limited by Mastery Level. It is also limited by Warp Charges remaining. It is also limited by the unit being a Psyker in the first place. It is also limited by that unit actually existing in your army list. Ahriman is not capable of casting Psyker powers from outside the game.

Please stop disregarding limits relating to Mastery Level simply because there are ALSO limits related to Warp Charges. My examples above indicate areas where Mastery Level is irrelevant and limits nothing. The context I've been arguing is a scenario where ML and WC are both limiting manifestation, not your version of defenestrating Mastery Level in favor of another limit. It's not either or, it's and.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Rorschach9 wrote:
That (the underlined) is not what the sentence says, so I imagine that must be why you cannot see the connection.

Must be hard for you to see any connections at all without quoting the rules. Check it out for yourself and don't get hung up on semantics. It clearly states "his" mastery level, not your entire army's mastery level combined. Warp Charges are generated at an army level, not individually by psykers, and so have no correlation to limiting a psyker's manifest attempts by HIS MASTERY LEVEL.

 Lobomalo wrote:
Not sure if this helps or not, but under the Mastery Levels heading in the Psyker Phase section it states that,

"The number of psychic powers a Psyker can use each turn depends on his Mastery Level."

What this sounds like, to me at least, is that each Psyker may attempt to cast as many spells as they can pay for, up to their Mastery Level limit.

Cite source, please. Stated that the number of powers is limited by Mastery Level. It is also limited by Warp Charges remaining. It is also limited by the unit being a Psyker in the first place. It is also limited by that unit actually existing in your army list. Ahriman is not capable of casting Psyker powers from outside the game. 

Please stop disregarding limits relating to Mastery Level simply because there are ALSO limits related to Warp Charges. My examples above indicate areas where Mastery Level is irrelevant and limits nothing. The context I've been arguing is a scenario where ML and WCare both limiting manifestation, not your version of defenestrating Mastery Level in favor of another limit. It's not either or, it's and.

This Mastery level limit you have started talking about. Where can I find that?

But we agree "the number of psychic powers a Psyker can use each turn depends on" more than just Mastery Level? Do we agree? Or is Mastery level the ONLY thing that determines how many powers a Psyker can cast?

The number of apples a person can have depends on his age.

The number of apples a person can have is equal to his age.


Michael is 20 years old, how many apples can he have according to the first sentence? How many apples can Michael have according to the 2nd sentence? Please print your answer below.

Hollismason wrote:
The number of apples a person can have depends on his age.

The number of apples a person can have is equal to his age.


Michael is 20 years old, how many apples can he have according to the first sentence? How many apples can Michael have according to the 2nd sentence? Please print your answer below.

Without further information we cannot answer the first.

Obviously the second has been qualified and so we can, absolutely and without question, state 20.

This actually summarizes the problem of using the one statement about mastery level and the dependence on it.

Hollismason wrote:
The number of apples a person can have depends on his age.

The number of apples a person can have is equal to his age.


Michael is 20 years old, how many apples can he have according to the first sentence? How many apples can Michael have according to the 2nd sentence? Please print your answer below.

First question I can't answer as we don't have enough information.

The second question is 20.

 FlingitNow wrote:
This Mastery level limit you have started talking about. Where can I find that?

Started? Been arguing that from the first post. Read the thread. Better yet, since you have yet to post anything of your own but rather sit back sniping my claims, why don't you state your stance and how it is supported?

 FlingitNow wrote:
But we agree "the number of psychic powers a Psyker can use each turn depends on" more than just Mastery Level? Do we agree? Or is Mastery level the ONLY thing that determines how many powers a Psyker can cast?

Neither. It's an absolute that determines how many powers a Psyker can cast, further refined by the amount of energy you have to manifest with. You seem to be having trouble understanding the relationship of multiple restrictions overlapping each other. A square is also a rectangle. That doesn't mean it's ONLY a rectangle. However, to say a rectangle is a square would be ludicrous, which is exactly what claiming Warp Charges are what limit us does when I've proven in my examples that Mastery Level is irrelevant in those instances. Only instances where Mastery Level and Warp Charges remaining apply can be considered valid under the rules. As Mastery Level does not generate warp charges for an individual psyker, and as some psykers have more powers than they have mastery levels, there is no dependency on it for powers a psyker may use each turn. That contradicts the rule that states the number of powers does depend on Mastery Level.

Rorschach9 wrote:

Hollismason wrote:
The number of apples a person can have depends on his age.

The number of apples a person can have is equal to his age.


Michael is 20 years old, how many apples can he have according to the first sentence? How many apples can Michael have according to the 2nd sentence? Please print your answer below.

Without further information we cannot answer the first.

Obviously the second has been qualified and so we can, absolutely and without question, state 20.

This actually summarizes the problem of using the one statement about mastery level and the dependence on it.

 FlingitNow wrote:

Hollismason wrote:
The number of apples a person can have depends on his age.

The number of apples a person can have is equal to his age.


Michael is 20 years old, how many apples can he have according to the first sentence? How many apples can Michael have according to the 2nd sentence? Please print your answer below.

First question I can't answer as we don't have enough information.

The second question is 20.

Wow.

Just wow.

Hollismason wrote:

Wow.

Just wow.

I know, right?

It's almost like words have meanings, or something.

Kyutaru wrote: Neither. It's an absolute that determines how many powers a Psyker can cast, further refined by the amount of energy you have to manifest with. You seem to be having trouble understanding the relationship of multiple restrictions overlapping each other.

I think it is you that is having trouble understanding multiple restrictions and the word dependent. So a yes are no is the following statement true:

The number of psychic powers a Psyker can use each turn depends on more than just Mastery Level.

Hollismason wrote:
The number of apples a person can have depends on his age.

The number of apples a person can have is equal to his age.


Michael is 20 years old, how many apples can he have according to the first sentence? How many apples can Michael have according to the 2nd sentence? Please print your answer below.

This is a neat analogy. Let's mix things up a little, here are the rules of the game:

1) The maximum number of apples a person can eat depends on his age.
2) Each person gets a number of coins equal to his age + 1d100.
3) A person may use anywhere from 1 to 3 coins to purchase an apple.
4) After a person purchases an apple, he may purchase another.

For a person of 20 years of age, what do we know about the maximum number of apples he can eat? What if the 1d100 is 1? What if it is 100? Can the maximum number of apples a person can eat depend on that 1d100?

These rules should be interpreted like they are in any game. There are an infinite number of possibilities for things to depend on, and even a game of checkers can have rules longer than a phone book if it had to specify all the things that do not apply. If one restricts oneself to only the rules, as they are, what are the possibilities?

Hollismason

You seem to have some difficulty with apply the same wording to other situations. Hopefully this will help you understand with a more real life example:

The amount of pocket money my son gets each week depends on how much I earn.

lets say I earn £1000 each week, how much pocket money does my son get?

You seem to have difficulty with the English language.

Your question isn't the same as the one I put forth. I gave you all information you needed to answer both of those questions and yet you still willfully ignored it. All the variables to my question are known. We know that Michael is 20 years old, and that the number of apples people get is dependant on their age. That's not the same question.

I work with troubled teens, specifically kids who are on drugs, sex workers, I teach for GED training, these kids who have literally elementary education and have lived on the streets. Have a better understanding of the English language and are more negotiable than the people here. Like people I would expect to have difficult understanding word problems, or have trouble negotiating, don't.

If you can not answer that question, you are either being purposefully difficult, or you genuinely do not know how to answer it. I am not sure which is worse.

 FlingitNow wrote:

Kyutaru wrote: Neither. It's an absolute that determines how many powers a Psyker can cast, further refined by the amount of energy you have to manifest with. You seem to be having trouble understanding the relationship of multiple restrictions overlapping each other.

I think it is you that is having trouble understanding multiple restrictions and the word dependent. So a yes are no is the following statement true:

The number of psychic powers a Psyker can use each turn depends on more than just Mastery Level.

As I stated already, please make your case, do not simply deconstruct mine. You're rewording an existing line of the rules in order to demonstrate a combined ruling which shows you do not understand how multiple restrictions interact. Mastery Level is like the sides of a polygon being equal. Warp Charges is like there being exactly four 90 degree angles. Having both means you are a square as well as a rectangle. Having only one disqualifies you from being labelled as a square.

So if you would, address the following statement please...

Can the number of powers a Psyker may use each turn be dependent on his Mastery Level if his Mastery Level plays no part in restricting him? Please cite the rules that allow Be'lakor to overrule this basic requirement without quoting Warp Charges as the quantity your army possesses has no dependency on his mastery level.

Hollismason wrote:
The number of apples a person can have depends on his age.
The number of apples a person can have is equal to his age.
Michael is 20 years old, how many apples can he have according to the first sentence? How many apples can Michael have according to the 2nd sentence? Please print your answer below.

Here's a better one for you.

"The amount of social security benefits a person can have each month depends on his age."

Are you coming up with a way to distribute social security benefits that IGNORES a person's age? Then it's wrong. The ideas shown here that demonstrate unlimited manifestation of known powers do exactly this.

Camp A:
- Assumes that Warp Charges are what limit us and we may manifest any number of powers known.
- Mastery Level has no bearing on the number of powers Be'lakor can manifest.
- Warp Charges are not a limiting factor dependent on a psyker's Mastery Level but are generated by the entire army.

Camp B:
- Understands that Mastery Level must limit us somehow and rejects interpretations that ignore it entirely.

Hollismason wrote:
I gave you all information you needed to answer both of those questions and yet you still willfully ignored it.

No, you really didn't.

Hollismason wrote:
The number of apples a person can have depends on his age.

In what way is it dependent?
Is it 3 apples per year? One for every two years? What?
You absolutley did NOT say one apple per year, nor did your question suggest it.

Yeah, uh I don't even.

http://www.themathpage.com/alg/word-problems.htm

Here. I mean read that or something , I'm out.

Gonna go play my Fateweaver casting 12 to 16 spells or whatever.

Hollismason wrote:
The number of apples a person can have depends on his age.

The number of apples a person can have is equal to his age.


Michael is 20 years old, how many apples can he have according to the first sentence? How many apples can Michael have according to the 2nd sentence? Please print your answer below.

The second one is obviously 20.

As to the first, there is not enough information.

Who is providing the apples? Does Michael have to purchase said apples? If so, how much do they cost? How much does Michael make? How much is taken out for taxes? How much does Michael set aside from each paycheck? Does Michael even have a job? If not, does he have food stamps?

Hollismason wrote:
You seem to have difficulty with the English language.

Your question isn't the same as the one I put forth. I gave you all information you needed to answer both of those questions and yet you still willfully ignored it.

I work with troubled teens, specifically kids who are on drugs, sex workers, I teach for GED training, these kids who have literally elementary education and have lived on the streets. Have a better understanding of the English language and are more negotiable than the people here. Like people I would expect to have difficult understanding word problems, or have trouble negotiating, don't.

If you can not answer that question, you are either being purposefully difficult, or you genuinely do not know how to answer it. I am not sure which is worse.

The question you asked (like the one I did) was unanswerable. So explain the difference all I did was change apples for pocket money and age for earnings. Yes I also made it time bound (per week) to make it more like the rule (per turn).

So what otherwise is the difference between our questions? Please enlighten me.

I literally gave you the tools you need to understand that question. Go read that website it's a easy to read 2nd grade approach to word problems.

You have all the relevant information to answer both those questions.

Hollismason wrote:
Go read that website it's a easy to read 2nd grade approach to word problems.

You have all the relevant information to answer both those questions.

X depends on B
What is X?
Only the equation is missing.

That's litterally what you're asking. The relevent information to solve it is not there.
And can you perhaps try not to insult everyone simply for not agreeing with you?

Kyutaru wrote: As I stated already, please make your case, do not simply deconstruct mine. You're rewording an existing line of the rules in order to demonstrate a combined ruling which shows you do not understand how multiple restrictions interact. Mastery Level is like the sides of a polygon being equal. Warp Charges is like there being exactly four 90 degree angles. Having both means you are a square as well as a rectangle. Having only one disqualifies you from being labelled as a square. 

So if you would, address the following statement please... 

Can the number of powers a Psyker may use each turn be dependent on his Mastery Level if his Mastery Level plays no part in restricting him? Please cite the rules that allow Be'lakor to overrule this basic requirement without quoting Warp Charges as the quantity your army possesses has no dependency on his mastery level. 

So you're unable to answer the question?

I will answer yours. Yes it can be dependant on his Mastery and still not restricted by it. For instance a psyker can only cast each power once and the number of powers he has depends on his Mastery Level.

You've still not come up for a reason for the limit not being ML+1000. Which is just as valid an interpretation of the meaning of the sentence as the limit ML+0. Which you and Hollismason seem to be willfully ignorant of.

 grendel083 wrote:

Hollismason wrote:
Go read that website it's a easy to read 2nd grade approach to word problems.

You have all the relevant information to answer both those questions.

X depends on B
What is X?
Only the equation is missing.

That's litterally what you're asking. The relevent information to solve it is not there.
And can you perhaps try not to insult everyone simply for not agreeing with you?

I believe it is more F(B)=X were B is undefined. X depends on B but we don't have the dependency.

Hollismason wrote:
I literally gave you the tools you need to understand that question. Go read that website it's a easy to read 2nd grade approach to word problems.

You have all the relevant information to answer both those questions.

Have you read that site? You seem to not understand how English Problems work at all.

The number of apples a person can have depends on his age. 

The number of apples a person can have is equal to his age. 


Michael is 20 years old, how many apples can he have according to the first sentence? How many apples can Michael have according to the 2nd sentence?

That's what you've put. Lets swap variables for letters:

The number of X a person can have depends on Y.

The number of X a person can have equals Y.

Y is 20. Solve X for first sentence and second sentence.

So lets change X and Y for other variables lets say X is pocket money and Y is his farther's earnings. His farthers earnings are £1000. Now lets look again, given that we can all solve the second sentence lets just look at the first as this is where your understanding seems to be struggling:


The number of pocket money a person can have depends on his farther's earning.

His Farther's earnings are £1000. Solve.

You've still not come up for a reason for the limit not being ML+1000. Which is just as valid an interpretation of the meaning of the sentence as the limit ML+0. Which you and Hollismason seem to be willfully ignorant of.

So far we are in the realm of the maximum number of manifest attempts being of the form: ML + X (constant) + Y(psychic power count) + Z(total warp charges)

Do you agree that the maximum number of manifest attempts for any mastery level, from 0 to infinity cannot be negative?
- If so, then X >= 0.
Do you think that two psykers with the same mastery level have the same maximum number of manifest attempts?
- If not, please indicate the rule that leads you to believe this.
- If so, then Y is 0.
Do you agree that the maximum number of manifest attempts can be determined from mastery level, independent of how many other psychers are in your army?
- If not, please indicate the rule that leads you to believe this.
- If so, then Z is 0.
Do you agree that the maximum number of manifest attempts can be determined from mastery level, independent of the outcome of the 1d6 roll for warp charges?
- If not, please indicate the rule that leads you to believe this.
- If so, then X <= 1.

 FlingitNow wrote:

Kyutaru wrote:Can the number of powers a Psyker may use each turn be dependent on his Mastery Level if his Mastery Level plays no part in restricting him? Please cite the rules that allow Be'lakor to overrule this basic requirement without quoting Warp Charges as the quantity your army possesses has no dependency on his mastery level. 

I will answer yours. Yes it can be dependant on his Mastery and still not restricted by it. For instance a psyker can only cast each power once and the number of powers he has depends on his Mastery Level.

And there is where your definition breaks, so you have to failed to correctly answer the question. For instance a psyker can possess 7 powers (such as Be'lakor) which has no dependency on his Mastery Level at all. Regardless of what happens to his Mastery Level, Be'lakor always has 7 powers. If they decide to update the Telepathy discipline such that it contains 10 powers in the future, his number of powers per turn will change once again because it literally has nothing to do with his Mastery Level at all.

So as I stated already, please cite the rules that allow Be'lakor to overrule the basic requirement of Mastery Level dependency when it clearly is not dependent on his Mastery Level at all. Bear in mind, I'm not saying it ONLY needs to be based on his Mastery Level, but it DOES need to be based on his Mastery Level. Your answer does not require any dependency on his mastery level, which if you followed my social security example you'd know that would make your interpretation inherently wrong. No interpretation that rejects Mastery Level dependency is permitted by RAW.

 FlingitNow wrote:
You've still not come up for a reason for the limit not being ML+1000. Which is just as valid an interpretation of the meaning of the sentence as the limit ML+0. Which you and Hollismason seem to be willfully ignorant of.

Warhammer 40k is a permissive ruleset and there is no permission given to add 1000 to your Mastery Level, just as there is no permission to subtract, multiply, divide, or otherwise alter the number pertaining to Mastery Level. As it is literally impossible to modify Mastery Level because of this, then the realm of rational number possibilities is reduced to a single number: ML.

barnowl wrote:

 grendel083 wrote:

Hollismason wrote:
Go read that website it's a easy to read 2nd grade approach to word problems.

You have all the relevant information to answer both those questions.

X depends on B
What is X?
Only the equation is missing.

That's litterally what you're asking. The relevent information to solve it is not there.
And can you perhaps try not to insult everyone simply for not agreeing with you?

I believe it is more F(B)=X were B is undefined. X depends on B but we don't have the dependency.

It's literally simpler than that.

The X of psychic powers a Psyker can use each turn depends on his Y.

X = Y

Y = Mastery Level

We know X is equal to Y, we know that Y can be ML1, ML2, ML3, ML4.... We know that there is an exception to the rules that Psykers may gain extra spells, which has no correspondence with their Mastery Level.

We don't have to deal with any other statement what so ever , but this statement , not warp charge, not spells known nothing matters because as long as that statement remains true then we are following the rules.

People are purposefully over complicating it in order to twist or bend their interpretations to suit their needs and or feelings when in fact the statement couldn't be more clear. Again this is literally people purposefully trying to make something vague through weird syntax arguments.

So if this following is true:

The X of psychic powers a Psyker can use each turn depends on his Y = True Statement

Then a Mastery Level 1 can be written like this:

The number (1) of psychic powers a Psyker can use each turn depends on his 1 = True

Grammatically that may not make a lot of sense but it is a true statement because X = Y.

I mean this is elementary word problems.

There doesn't need to be anything esle said as there are no other true statements because those statements become true if we maintain that this statement is true.

 FlingitNow wrote:

Hollismason wrote:
I literally gave you the tools you need to understand that question. Go read that website it's a easy to read 2nd grade approach to word problems.

You have all the relevant information to answer both those questions.

Have you read that site? You seem to not understand how English Problems work at all.

The number of apples a person can have depends on his age.

The number of apples a person can have is equal to his age.


Michael is 20 years old, how many apples can he have according to the first sentence? How many apples can Michael have according to the 2nd sentence?

That's what you've put. Lets swap variables for letters:

The number of X a person can have depends on Y.

The number of X a person can have equals Y.

Y is 20. Solve X for first sentence and second sentence.

So lets change X and Y for other variables lets say X is pocket money and Y is his farther's earnings. His farthers earnings are £1000. Now lets look again, given that we can all solve the second sentence lets just look at the first as this is where your understanding seems to be struggling:


The number of pocket money a person can have depends on his farther's earning.

His Farther's earnings are £1000. Solve.

Yea.. there are no other variables to that statement, it's X = Y. You just look dumb. We know the Variables, we know the variable is Mastery Level. We don't have to go further.

Hollismason wrote:

barnowl wrote:

 grendel083 wrote:

Hollismason wrote:
Go read that website it's a easy to read 2nd grade approach to word problems.

You have all the relevant information to answer both those questions.

X depends on B
What is X?
Only the equation is missing.

That's litterally what you're asking. The relevent information to solve it is not there.
And can you perhaps try not to insult everyone simply for not agreeing with you?

I believe it is more F(B)=X were B is undefined. X depends on B but we don't have the dependency.

It's literally simpler than that.

The X of psychic powers a Psyker can use each turn depends on his Y.

X = Y

Y = Mastery Level

We know X is equal to Y, we know that Y can be ML1, ML2, ML3, ML4.... We know that there is an exception to the rules that Psykers may gain extra spells, which has no correspondence with their Mastery Level.

We don't have to deal with any other statement what so ever , but this statement , not warp charge, not spells known nothing matters because as long as that statement remains true then we are following the rules.

People are purposefully over complicating it in order to twist or bend their interpretations to suit their needs and or feelings when in fact the statement couldn't be more clear. Again this is literally people purposefully trying to make something vague through weird syntax arguments.

So if this following is true:

The X of psychic powers a Psyker can use each turn depends on his Y = True Statement

Then a Mastery Level 1 can be written like this:

The number (1) of psychic powers a Psyker can use each turn depends on his 1 = True

Grammatically that may not make a lot of sense but it is a true statement because X = Y.

I mean this is elementary word problems.

There doesn't need to be anything esle said as there are no other true statements because those statements become true if we maintain that this statement is true.

"X depends on Y" =/= "X = Y"

We aren't told how X depends on Y, only that it does.

Y is defined, we know it's definition. We know that Master Level can equal 1, 2, 3, 4 or whatever it states it's mastery level to be in it's listing, if it does not state it we know to treat it as ML 1. The only "variable" which isn't really being used correctly ,but that's fine is the Mastery Level of the Psyker in question.

Everyone here is trying to make a correlation between Psychic Powers known and Mastery Level and we are given specific instructions on how to deal with that and what the exception is. This has no affect none on the ability of the Psyker to cast a X number of spells there is no correlation between spells know, warp charge left etc..

We just have to maintain that as a true statement.

madric wrote:

So far we are in the realm of the maximum number of manifest attempts being of the form: ML + X (constant) + Y(psychic power count) + Z(total warp charges)

You've ignored the countless other possibilities for the formula. Like for instance X(ML + Y) + Z. Or A(ML + X)(Y +B)(Z+C). You've just arbitrarily decided on this.

Do you agree that the maximum number of manifest attempts for any mastery level, from 0 to infinity cannot be negative?
- If so, then X >= 0.

Agreed.

Do you think that two psykers with the same mastery level have the same maximum number of manifest attempts?
- If not, please indicate the rule that leads you to believe this.
- If so, then Y is 0.

The rule that says I can attempt to manifest if I have warp charge. So I don't believe that two psykers with the same Mastery Level must have the same maximum manifestation attempts do you have a rule that states they must? But lets press on assuming this to be true.

Do you agree that the maximum number of manifest attempts can be determined from mastery level, independent of how many other psychers are in your army?
- If not, please indicate the rule that leads you to believe this.
- If so, then Z is 0.

This is absolutely false. Nothing states this. Yet again we'll press on with your arbitrary formular.

Do you agree that the maximum number of manifest attempts can be determined from mastery level, independent of the outcome of the 1d6 roll for warp charges?
- If not, please indicate the rule that leads you to believe this.
- If so, then X <= 1.

Lets say I do agree with the statement that does not mean X<=1. X can still have any value. This is the issue you're just making lots and lots of things up and claiming they are rules.

 erick99 wrote:
"X depends on Y" =/= "X = Y"

We aren't told how X depends on Y, only that it does.

We also aren't granted permission to modify X or Y in any way.

The number of powers you can use each turn depends on Mastery Level. Mastery Level must be a real number and the number of powers you can use each turn must be a real number. Therefore, the number of powers you can use per turn is somewhere between +/- Infinity. We are granted no permission to modify Mastery Level in any way to reach the result. We are however told that the result is dependent on Mastery Level. There is only one answer in the universe that meets both dependency on Mastery Level and the zero permission to modify Mastery Level in any way. That number happens to be: Mastery Level.

We're not saying that the rules explicitly say that Mastery Level is the exact answer. We're saying that every single real number that exists cannot be the answer except for Mastery Level.

This is commonly referred to in Calculus as the Squeeze Theorem.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Squeeze_theorem

The exact answer can be determined by ruling out every wrong answer.

Hollismason wrote:
Y is defined, we know it's definition.

Yes Y is defined, but nowhere does it say that X is equal to Y. That is pure assumption.

X is dependent on Y, but there is still no information on how.

Hollismason, the definition of y is f(x). The problem is that the function is undefined. Is the function "((X+7+10)*(1000-8))/992-17"? Or is it something simpler, like "X*2"?

You've ignored the countless other possibilities for the formula. Like for instance X(ML + Y) + Z. Or A(ML + X)(Y +B)(Z+C). You've just arbitrarily decided on this.

Do you agree there are infinite number of things and that a rule book cannot be of infinite length?
- If not, then no game can be played.
- If so, then rules are written in terms of what is possible and allowed, and if not explicitly stated, then it is not relevant. For example, checkers may say nothing about a piece being on the line between squares. It does not include or exclude it, the default when playing a game is to drop extraneous factors unless the rule calls for it.

Do you think that two psykers with the same mastery level have the same maximum number of manifest attempts?
- If not, please indicate the rule that leads you to believe this.
- If so, then Y is 0.

The rule that says I can attempt to manifest if I have warp charge. So I don't believe that two psykers with the same Mastery Level must have the same maximum manifestation attempts do you have a rule that states they must? But lets press on assuming this to be true.

Another player kindly posted the rule you are referring to.

MANIFESTING PSYCHIC POWERS
The most common psychic action is the manifestation of psychic powers. Only the player whose turn it is can attempt to manifest psychic powers. If, after attempting to manifest a psychic power, you still have Warp Charge points left, you can attempt to manifest another psychic power with the same unit, or select another of your Psyker units and attempt to manifest a power the new unit knows.

The relevant starts with a preposition, limiting its scope: "If, after attempting to manifest a psychic power, ...". The remainder of that sentence only applies after you have attempted to manifest a power. The maximum number of manifest attempts is determined before you may manifest a power (obviously because it must be greater than 1 in order to ever attempt to manifest that power in the first place), thus this sentence bears no relation to the maximum number of powers.

Do you agree that the maximum number of manifest attempts can be determined from mastery level, independent of how many other psychers are in your army?
- If not, please indicate the rule that leads you to believe this.
- If so, then Z is 0.

This is absolutely false. Nothing states this. Yet again we'll press on with your arbitrary formular.

Again, rule books do not need to negate every single possibility, otherwise they would be of infinite length. If you are making the claim that the maximum number of powers can be influence by the number of psykers in your army, the burden of proof is upon you to show the rule allowing this.

Do you agree that the maximum number of manifest attempts can be determined from mastery level, independent of the outcome of the 1d6 roll for warp charges?
- If not, please indicate the rule that leads you to believe this.
- If so, then X <= 1.

Lets say I do agree with the statement that does not mean X<=1. X can still have any value. This is the issue you're just making lots and lots of things up and claiming they are rules.

Yea.. there are no other variables to that statement, it's X = Y. You just look dumb. We know the Variables, we know the variable is Mastery Level. We don't have to go further.

Ha ha ha. I'm confident anyone with a basic understanding of maths would not think my correct statements make me look dumb. We have 2 variables X (apples in your example, pocket money in mine, number of powers cast per turn in the rules) and Y (age, father's earnings and Mastery Level).

"X depends on Y" does not mean "X = Y". I'll try again to make you understand but I suspect you already understand and are just being stubborn as I don't believe anyone could fail to grasp such simple concepts. Again answer this question (or tell me how it differs from "X depends on Y):

A persons pocket money depends on their father's earnings.

My father earns £1,000 a week how much pocket money do I get?

 FlingitNow wrote:

Yea.. there are no other variables to that statement, it's X = Y. You just look dumb. We know the Variables, we know the variable is Mastery Level. We don't have to go further.

Ha ha ha. I'm confident anyone with a basic understanding of maths would not think my correct statements make me look dumb. We have 2 variables X (apples in your example, pocket money in mine, number of powers cast per turn in the rules) and Y (age, father's earnings and Mastery Level).

"X depends on Y" does not mean "X = Y". I'll try again to make you understand but I suspect you already understand and are just being stubborn as I don't believe anyone could fail to grasp such simple concepts. Again answer this question (or tell me how it differs from "X depends on Y):

A persons pocket money depends on their father's earnings.

My father earns £1,000 a week how much pocket money do I get?

Apparently £1,000 a week. Can I live with you? I can always use more cash.

Kyutaru wrote:
The exact answer can be determined by ruling out every wrong answer.

Which in this particular case leaves you with no answer, since we are not given sufficient information to actually answer the question.


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Hollismason wrote:
The X of psychic powers a Psyker can use each turn depends on his Y.

X = Y

From where are you getting this definition of X?

We know X is equal to Y

No, we don't. We know that X is dependant on Y.

Dependant is not synonymous with equal.

 insaniak wrote:

Kyutaru wrote:
The exact answer can be determined by ruling out every wrong answer.

Which in this particular case leaves you with no answer, since we are not given sufficient information to actually answer the question.

Incorrect. We know all the answers it cannot be. We may therefore pick an answer from what's left over. There just happens to be only a single answer left.

 FlingitNow wrote:

Yea.. there are no other variables to that statement, it's X = Y. You just look dumb. We know the Variables, we know the variable is Mastery Level. We don't have to go further.

Ha ha ha. I'm confident anyone with a basic understanding of maths would not think my correct statements make me look dumb. We have 2 variables X (apples in your example, pocket money in mine, number of powers cast per turn in the rules) and Y (age, father's earnings and Mastery Level).

"X depends on Y" does not mean "X = Y". I'll try again to make you understand but I suspect you already understand and are just being stubborn as I don't believe anyone could fail to grasp such simple concepts. Again answer this question (or tell me how it differs from "X depends on Y):

A persons pocket money depends on their father's earnings.

My father earns £1,000 a week how much pocket money do I get?

We don't need to know that X = Y.

X > Y cannot be true as we have no permission to add anything to Mastery Level per the RAW.
X < Y cannot be true as we have no permission to subtract anything from Mastery Level per the RAW.
X and Y are related somehow by Mastery Level, say in the equation X = n * Y (this is the equation for dependency).
We must therefore determine what value 'n' is.

Can you think of any number that would work? I can.

Kyutaru wrote:
Incorrect. We know all the answers it cannot be.

Which simply gives us a list of things it is not. That doesn't mean that the only other answer you think applies must be the correct one... it simply means that you can only think of one other answer.


Rules don't work by forcing you to eliminate all of the impossible things in order to determine what you can do. That would be ridiculous.

Do you agree there are infinite number of things and that a rule book cannot be of infinite length? 
- If not, then no game can be played. 
- If so, then rules are written in terms of what is possible and allowed, and if not explicitly stated, then it is not relevant. For example, checkers may say nothing about a piece being on the line between squares. It does not include or exclude it, the default when playing a game is to drop extraneous factors unless the rule calls for it. 

Yes it is a permissive ruleset. So what in the rules tells you that the formula you are using is the one to use? That is my issue the rule in question gives us no indication of what the formula for the dependency is. So you've arbitrarily made up a formula. If you are arbitrarily making things up you can't claim they are rules. The rest of your post pretty much follows the same process.

If you agree with the premise, then the maximum number of powers can be no greater than the minimum possible roll. 

Sorry but why must the maximum be no greater than the minimum dice roll? Unless your premise was that you must always have enough dice to cast every power you can cast within the ML limit. Which is easily proven false by the fact that I could chuck all my dice at the first power and then by your definition I still must be allowed to cast the others. Or say I only have 1 ML1Psyker and he only has WC3 powers I roll a 1 for WC by your definition I must be able to cast but I can't.

I'm sorry you feel that I'm "making things up", I have used nothing outside of first order logic. I am using it to take known facts, and derive new facts from them following the rules of logic. Follow the process and you will end up at the same conclusions.

But you haven't followed logic. You taken known facts made arbitrary decisions and called them derived facts then followed logic from those false premises or just made incorrect conclusions out of thin air from your premises.


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 Happyjew wrote:

 FlingitNow wrote:

Yea.. there are no other variables to that statement, it's X = Y. You just look dumb. We know the Variables, we know the variable is Mastery Level. We don't have to go further.

Ha ha ha. I'm confident anyone with a basic understanding of maths would not think my correct statements make me look dumb. We have 2 variables X (apples in your example, pocket money in mine, number of powers cast per turn in the rules) and Y (age, father's earnings and Mastery Level).

"X depends on Y" does not mean "X = Y". I'll try again to make you understand but I suspect you already understand and are just being stubborn as I don't believe anyone could fail to grasp such simple concepts. Again answer this question (or tell me how it differs from "X depends on Y):

A persons pocket money depends on their father's earnings.

My father earns £1,000 a week how much pocket money do I get?

Apparently £1,000 a week. Can I live with you? I can always use more cash.

Do you really believe that is the correct answer to the question? If so you really need to go back to school.

 insaniak wrote:

Kyutaru wrote:
Incorrect. We know all the answers it cannot be.

Which simply gives us a list of things it is not. That doesn't mean that the only other answer you think applies must be the correct one... it simply means that you can only think of one other answer.

Rules don't work by forcing you to eliminate all of the impossible things in order to determine what you can do. That would be ridiculous.

What's ridiculous is this thread, but I'll attempt to enlighten you anyway in the way a math teacher would. Quiz!

1) Number of powers that may be cast per turn... must it be a real number that exists?

2) Must this number be dependent on Mastery Level in some fashion?

3) Do we have permission to modify Mastery Level in any way to determine the number of powers we may cast?

4) If all modified variants of Mastery Level are ruled out due to lack of permission, are there any other values left that are still dependent on Mastery Level?

5) Do you follow yet?


Once you have completed the quiz, a grade will be assigned ranging from 1 to 5. Disclaimer: This is not golf.

We don't need to know that X = Y. 

X > Y cannot be true as we have no permission to add anything to Mastery Level per the RAW. 
X < Y cannot be true as we have no permission to subtract anything from Mastery Level per the RAW. 
X and Y are related somehow by Mastery Level, say in the equation X = n * Y (this is the equation for dependency). 
We must therefore determine what value 'n' is. 

Can you think of any number that would work? I can.

Except of course X can indeed potentially be either greater than or less than Y. Despite your claims otherwise. You have no rules that say it can be equal to ML anymore than there are rules saying it can be more or less than ML.

And this is where it all falls apart:

Kyutaru 599772 6921406 null3) wrote: Do we have permission to modify Mastery Level in any way to determine the number of powers we may cast?.

Because what we have is an incomplete rule (that the number of powers is dependant on Mastery Level, without any explanation as to how this applies) ... so any conclusion you draw, mathematically or otherwise, is based on incomplete data.

You can not state unequivocably that this is supposed to work any given way, because we do not have the complete rules to form that conclusion. Until GW get around to finishing writing the Psychic rules, the best anyone can do is guess as to how they are supposed to work.

 FlingitNow wrote:
Except of course X can indeed potentially be either greater than or less than Y. Despite your claims otherwise. You have no rules that say it can be equal to ML anymore than there are rules saying it can be more or less than ML.

40k is a permissive ruleset. If the rules do not say you can do something, then you may not do it. Please cite your permission to modify Mastery Level for the purpose of determining powers per turn. Without permission to modify mastery level, and no explanation for how it can otherwise be dependent on a psyker's Mastery Level, we are left with but a single recourse.

Example: If I ask you a question and give you the choice of answering Yes or No, you may not answer Forty-Two. It's simply not permitted by the rules of the question.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 insaniak wrote:
And this is where it all falls apart:

Kyutaru 599772 6921406 null3) wrote: Do we have permission to modify Mastery Level in any way to determine the number of powers we may cast?.

Because what we have is an incomplete rule (that the number of powers is dependant on Mastery Level, without any explanation as to how this applies) ... so any conclusion you draw, mathematically or otherwise, is based on incomplete data.

You can not state unequivocably that this is supposed to work any given way, because we do not have the complete rules to form that conclusion. Until GW get around to finishing writing the Psychic rules, the best anyone can do is guess as to how they are supposed to work.

But that is an assumption you invented. I have stated the manner in which you can determine the only possible answer. Regardless of how incomplete you feel the rule is it provides us just enough information to determine the answer DESPITE its wording.

Kyutaru wrote:

 FlingitNow wrote:
Except of course X can indeed potentially be either greater than or less than Y. Despite your claims otherwise. You have no rules that say it can be equal to ML anymore than there are rules saying it can be more or less than ML.

40k is a permissive ruleset. If the rules do not say you can do something, then you may not do it. Please cite your permission to modify Mastery Level for the purpose of determining powers per turn. Without permission to modify mastery level, and no explanation for how it can otherwise be dependent on a psyker's Mastery Level, we are left with but a single recourse.

Example: If I ask you a question and give you the choice of answering Yes or No, you may not answer Forty-Two. It's simply not permitted by the rules of the question.

And this is not a yes/no answer.
This is a huge logical leap your making.

The dependancy isn't know.

If you want to assume it's 1:1 then fine, but please be clear that this is just your opinion/ house rule. That's all it is.

And of course there is no rule to modify the Mastery Level. But that still doesn't mean that the number of powers that can be cast is equal to Mastery level. That is pure assumption.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Kyutaru wrote:
But that is an assumption you invented. I have stated the manner in which you can determine the only possible answer. Regardless of how incomplete you feel the rule is it provides us just enough information to determine the answer DESPITE its wording.

It does not. You made a logical leap, added some random bits, and made an assumption. Nothing more.

Please cite your permission to modify Mastery Level for the purpose of determining powers per turn

Please cite your permission to have the Mastery Level equal the number of powers per turn.

 grendel083 wrote:
And of course there is no rule to modify the Mastery Level. But that still doesn't mean that the number of powers that can be cast is equal to Mastery level. That is pure assumption.

Please cite an example of a number that is both dependent on Mastery Level and not modified from it. No assumptions necessary here. You either are doing more than the rules permit by modifying Mastery Level to arrive at powers per turn or you are going with an interpretation indifferent of Mastery Level entirely. Neither of those follow the RAW. Only one answer in the known universe does.

 FlingitNow wrote:
Ha ha ha. I'm confident anyone with a basic understanding of maths would not think my correct statements make me look dumb. We have 2 variables X (apples in your example, pocket money in mine, number of powers cast per turn in the rules) and Y (age, father's earnings and Mastery Level).

"X depends on Y" does not mean "X = Y". I'll try again to make you understand but I suspect you already understand and are just being stubborn as I don't believe anyone could fail to grasp such simple concepts. Again answer this question (or tell me how it differs from "X depends on Y):

A persons pocket money depends on their father's earnings.

My father earns £1,000 a week how much pocket money do I get?

Well you get 1000 or less. but there is no way to tell exactly how much.

 FlingitNow wrote:

Please cite your permission to modify Mastery Level for the purpose of determining powers per turn

Please cite your permission to have the Mastery Level equal the number of powers per turn.

I never stated they were equal, so I don't need to. You just quoted this silly boy!

We don't need to know that X = Y.

X > Y cannot be true as we have no permission to add anything to Mastery Level per the RAW.
X < Y cannot be true as we have no permission to subtract anything from Mastery Level per the RAW.
X and Y are related somehow by Mastery Level, say in the equation X = n * Y (this is the equation for dependency).
We must therefore determine what value 'n' is.

Can you think of any number that would work? I can.

n can only be 1. X = Y.

Kyutaru wrote:

 grendel083 wrote:
And of course there is no rule to modify the Mastery Level. But that still doesn't mean that the number of powers that can be cast is equal to Mastery level. That is pure assumption.

Please cite an example of a number that is both dependent on Mastery Level and not modified from it. No assumptions necessary here. You either are doing more than the rules permit by modifying Mastery Level to arrive at powers per turn or you are going with an interpretation indifferent of Mastery Level entirely. Neither of those follow the RAW. Only one answer in the known universe does.

Modifiing Mastery level? Where has this idea come from? Why would the Mastery Level ever need to be modified?

The Number of Powers is dependent on the Mastery Level.
How?
Cite the rule please.
Show me where it says 1:1

 DeathReaper wrote:

 FlingitNow wrote:
Ha ha ha. I'm confident anyone with a basic understanding of maths would not think my correct statements make me look dumb. We have 2 variables X (apples in your example, pocket money in mine, number of powers cast per turn in the rules) and Y (age, father's earnings and Mastery Level).

"X depends on Y" does not mean "X = Y". I'll try again to make you understand but I suspect you already understand and are just being stubborn as I don't believe anyone could fail to grasp such simple concepts. Again answer this question (or tell me how it differs from "X depends on Y):

A persons pocket money depends on their father's earnings.

My father earns £1,000 a week how much pocket money do I get?

Well you get 1000 or less. but there is no way to tell exactly how much.

I could even get more than a £1000. My Mother could be a multibillionaire who's trying to show up my father who she's separated from so she pays me pocket money of twice his salary. It literally could be any number as all we know is that there is a formula containing Y where Y = My father's income.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Kyutaru wrote:

 FlingitNow wrote:

Please cite your permission to modify Mastery Level for the purpose of determining powers per turn

Please cite your permission to have the Mastery Level equal the number of powers per turn.

I never stated they were equal, so I don't need to. You just quoted this silly boy!

We don't need to know that X = Y.

X > Y cannot be true as we have no permission to add anything to Mastery Level per the RAW.
X < Y cannot be true as we have no permission to subtract anything from Mastery Level per the RAW.
X = Y cannot be true as we have no permission to have Mastery Level equal to the number of powers per the RAW
X and Y are related somehow by Mastery Level, say in the equation X = n * Y (this is the equation for dependency).
We must therefore determine what value 'n' is.

Can you think of any number that would work? I can.

n can only be 1. X = Y.

FTFY. This is the issue we have permission to have a formula we gave no permission for that formula to be anything. So we either make up a formula (as you have done) or accept that it could be anything and wait for further clarification in the rules.

After reading all of the replies to this thread, I think its probably safe to assume that everyone involved should agree to disagree as the rules are vague enough to spark this much of a debate. That said, I will add my opinion because why not.

After looking up the rules and their areas, I happen to agree with the camp that believes that you are not limited by your mastery level as to the number of spells you can manifest in a single turn. The reason for this is as follows:

I believe that the rule being quoted is meant to apply to the specific amount of powers that a psyker knows and not specific how much that psyker can cast in a turn. Everything in the section surrounding the quoted rule speaks to how powers are generated and it is "dependent" on mastery level. Later on in the psychic section, which is distinctly separated form the previous one, we are actually introduced to the rules about how the abilities are generated on battlefield. As has also been quoted in this thread, they in no way mention that there is a limit that is dictated by the ML of the psyker, only the amount of known spells and the remaining warp charges left.

Due to the separation of areas that the rules occur in, I believe that the reading of not being limited by mastery level is therefore most correct.

Also, as an interesting side note, I think the fact that the first rule uses the phrase "can use" instead of "can manifest" seems to also imply that there is a separate distinction here because otherwise the word "manifest" is used throughout the rules section when discussing actually putting that power to use in a game.

 grendel083 wrote:

Kyutaru wrote:

 grendel083 wrote:
And of course there is no rule to modify the Mastery Level. But that still doesn't mean that the number of powers that can be cast is equal to Mastery level. That is pure assumption.

Please cite an example of a number that is both dependent on Mastery Level and not modified from it. No assumptions necessary here. You either are doing more than the rules permit by modifying Mastery Level to arrive at powers per turn or you are going with an interpretation indifferent of Mastery Level entirely. Neither of those follow the RAW. Only one answer in the known universe does.

Modifiing Mastery level? Where has this idea come from? Why would the Mastery Level ever need to be modified?

The Number of Powers is dependent on the Mastery Level.
How?
Cite the rule please.
Show me where it says 1:1

I never stated that the rules said the relationship was 1 to 1. That was simply proven using Calculus. If you have an issue with that, take it up with Isaac Newton.

Modifying Mastery Level comes from the dependency. The relationship is that X is dependent on Y and both X and Y are numbers. A relationship exists between the two numbers and we do not know what that relationship is. What we do know is everything I've been stating thus far, which leads to the proof that there can be only one instance where the relationship remains valid without contradicting the RAW. It just happens to be that relationship is also 1:1. The rules were cited in every step of the process, please read the thread or pay better attention.

 FlingitNow wrote:

Kyutaru wrote:

 FlingitNow wrote:

Please cite your permission to modify Mastery Level for the purpose of determining powers per turn

Please cite your permission to have the Mastery Level equal the number of powers per turn.

I never stated they were equal, so I don't need to. You just quoted this silly boy!

We don't need to know that X = Y.

X > Y cannot be true as we have no permission to add anything to Mastery Level per the RAW.
X < Y cannot be true as we have no permission to subtract anything from Mastery Level per the RAW.
X = Y cannot be true as we have no permission to have Mastery Level equal to the number of powers per the RAW
X and Y are related somehow by Mastery Level, say in the equation X = n * Y (this is the equation for dependency).
We must therefore determine what value 'n' is.

Can you think of any number that would work? I can.

n can only be 1. X = Y.

FTFY. This is the issue we have permission to have a formula we gave no permission for that formula to be anything. So we either make up a formula (as you have done) or accept that it could be anything and wait for further clarification in the rules.

Except I haven't made up any formula. I even began my assumption with X =/= Y. Math proved that to be incorrect, X does in fact equal Y. You seem to have a problem following so let me break it down yet again into baby steps:

- We know the formula is not listed.
- We know there is no explicit indication of the relationship between Mastery Level and number of powers.
- We know number of powers is dependent on Mastery Level, but not how. X ? Y
- We know the rules do not provide any formula that permits modifying Mastery Level to obtain number of powers per turn.
- We know that every number greater than Mastery Level and less than Mastery Level would be an arbitrarily arrived at answer with no RAW permission. X cannot be > Y or < Y.
- We know that Mastery Level is itself a number, one that does not need any sort of modification to be itself.
- We know that Mastery Level has a direct mathematical relationship with itself. X = X
- We know the Squeeze Theorem permits in math for a definitive exact answer to be arrived at when X cannot be > Y or < Y.
- We know by applying the Squeeze Theorem that X = Y.
- We know Calculus is a real field in the real world and not made up for laughs and giggles.
- We know that in every instance of the Squeeze Theorem's application, we are indeed dealing with a problem that is lacking information yet the answer can be determined nonetheless, as is the very purpose of the Theorem's existence, to prove the equality of the complementary statements.
- We know that when the Squeeze Theorem says X = Y because X cannot be > Y or < Y it is because math majors have already proven this to be true centuries ago.

Kyutaru wrote:
- We know that every number greater than Mastery Level and less than Mastery Level would be an arbitrarily arrived at answer with no RAW permission. X cannot be > Y or < Y.

Here's your flaw.
Why can the number of powers not be greater or lesser than mastery level?

You must also discount any value equal to Mastery Level for exactly the same reason then.

There's equally no permission for the value to be equal.

The problem isn't a lack of permission. Permission exists for the value to be what it is. It just isn't clear what that value is.

We know what it is referencing because it states in the Psykers rules what it's Mastery Level is. We do actually know that value.

There's no "mystery".

 grendel083 wrote:

Kyutaru wrote:
- We know that every number greater than Mastery Level and less than Mastery Level would be an arbitrarily arrived at answer with no RAW permission. X cannot be > Y or < Y.

Here's your flaw.
Why can the number of powers not be greater or lesser than mastery level?

Dependency. We know there exists a relationship between number of powers per turn and Mastery Level. You can insert any formula you want for that, it's simply an abstract at this point. However, 40k is a permissive ruleset. We have no permission or formula that can be used to determine Mastery Level. No formula means no computations, no calculations, no additions, no subtractions, nothing. Yes, even equality would be included in this, however we're referring to PERMISSIONS here. There is no permission to multiply Mastery Level by anything, but permission already exists to determine Mastery Level as itself.

 grendel083 wrote:
You must also discount any value equal to Mastery Level for exactly the same reason then.

Nope! That's the beauty of it! 40k grants no permission to adjust Mastery Level, and it grants no permission to leave it the same. Since we have no permission, we can't do anything to it, we just leave it alone. However, now we start looking at possible answers that fit within these rules. All numbers that exist greater than Mastery Level had to have been modified from it to achieve dependency, which is not permitted by the rules. All numbers that exist less than Mastery Level had to have been modified from it to achieve dependency, which there is no permission to do. Yet can Mastery Level be dependent on Mastery Level? Yes. Can Mastery Level be equal to Mastery Level? Yes. Do we know one of the two numbers that comprises the dependency formula, even if we aren't sure of any unknowns? Yes. Is there any possibility that doesn't also conflict with one of the statements I've already made? Yes. The only possibility is Mastery Level.

 grendel083 wrote:
There's equally no permission for the value to be equal.

We look to math to acquire that! Unless you say math cannot apply in 40k. As in, losing a wound on a 3 Wound model makes it go down to 7 Wounds.

 grendel083 wrote:
The problem isn't a lack of permission. Permission exists for the value to be what it is. It just isn't clear what that value is.

Of course it's unclear what the value is! That's why you have to use math to determine the only answer that can possibly fit all the requirements.

It's totally a lack of permission. Every instance other than Mastery Level being the answer breaks one of the previously mentioned rules of the game. This is because Mastery Level is the only number in the universe that can be dependent on Mastery Level without a formula being supplied. So until the FAQs provide us with a formula, there is only one possible answer.

Kyutaru wrote:
So until the FAQs provide us with a formula, there is only one possible answer.

That answer being: We are not given any way to determine how being dependant on the Mastery Level is actually applied.


I think this has gone around and around for long enough this time around. Let's all just move on and hope for an errata.