NEENAH, Wis. — Inside the municipal garage of this small lakefront city, parked next to the hefty orange snowplow, sits an even larger truck, this one painted in desert khaki. Weighing 30 tons and built to withstand land mines, the armored combat vehicle is one of hundreds showing up across the country, in police departments big and small.
The 9-foot-tall armored truck was intended for an overseas battlefield. But as President Obama ushers in the end of what he called America’s “long season of war,” the former tools of combat — M-16 rifles, grenade launchers, silencers and more — are ending up in local police departments, often with little public notice.
During the Obama administration, according to Pentagon data, police departments have received tens of thousands of machine guns; nearly 200,000 ammunition magazines; thousands of pieces of camouflage and night-vision equipment; and hundreds of silencers, armored cars and aircraft.
The equipment has been added to the armories of police departments that already look and act like military units. Police SWAT teams are now deployed tens of thousands of times each year, increasingly for routine jobs. Masked, heavily armed police officers in Louisiana raided a nightclub in 2006 as part of a liquor inspection. In Florida in 2010, officers in SWAT gear and with guns drawn carried out raids on barbershops that mostly led only to charges of “barbering without a license.”
When the military’s mine-resistant trucks began arriving in large numbers last year, Neenah and places like it were plunged into the middle of a debate over whether the post-9/11 era had obscured the lines between soldier and police officer.
“It just seems like ramping up a police department for a problem we don’t have,” said Shay Korittnig, a father of two who spoke against getting the armored truck at a recent public meeting in Neenah. “This is not what I was looking for when I moved here, that my children would view their local police officer as an M-16-toting, SWAT-apparel-wearing officer.”
A quiet city of about 25,000 people, Neenah has a violent crime rate that is far below the national average. Neenah has not had a homicide in more than five years.
“Somebody has to be the first person to say ‘Why are we doing this?’ ” said William Pollnow Jr., a Neenah city councilman who opposed getting the new police truck.
Neenah’s police chief, Kevin E. Wilkinson, said he understood the concern. At first, he thought the anti-mine truck was too big. But the department’s old armored car could not withstand high-powered gunfire, he said.
“I don’t like it. I wish it were the way it was when I was a kid,” he said. But he said the possibility of violence, however remote, required taking precautions. “We’re not going to go out there as Officer Friendly with no body armor and just a handgun and say ‘Good enough.’ ”
Congress created the military-transfer program in the early 1990s, when violent crime plagued America’s cities and the police felt outgunned by drug gangs. Today, crime has fallen to its lowest levels in a generation, the wars have wound down, and despite current fears, the number of domestic terrorist attacks has declined sharply from the 1960s and 1970s.
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Police departments, though, are adding more firepower and military gear than ever. Some, especially in larger cities, have used federal grant money to buy armored cars and other tactical gear. And the free surplus program remains a favorite of many police chiefs who say they could otherwise not afford such equipment. Chief Wilkinson said he expects the police to use the new truck rarely, when the department’s SWAT team faces an armed standoff or serves a warrant on someone believed to be dangerous.
Today, Chief Wilkinson said, the police are trained to move in and save lives during a shooting or standoff, in contrast to a generation ago — before the Columbine High School massacre and others that followed it — when they responded by setting up a perimeter and either negotiating with, or waiting out, the suspect.
The number of SWAT teams has skyrocketed since the 1980s, according to studies by Peter B. Kraska, an Eastern Kentucky University professor who has been researching the issue for decades.
The ubiquity of SWAT teams has changed not only the way officers look, but also the way departments view themselves. Recruiting videos feature clips of officers storming into homes with smoke grenades and firing automatic weapons. In Springdale, Ark., a police recruiting video is dominated by SWAT clips, including officers throwing a flash grenade into a house and creeping through a field in camouflage.
In South Carolina, the Richland County Sheriff’s Department’s website features its SWAT team, dressed in black with guns drawn, flanking an armored vehicle that looks like a tank and has a mounted .50-caliber gun. Capt. Chris Cowan, a department spokesman, said the vehicle “allows the department to stay in step with the criminals who are arming themselves more heavily every day.” He said police officers had taken it to schools and community events, where it was a conversation starter.
“All of a sudden, we start relationships with people,” he said.
Not everyone agrees that there is a need for such vehicles. Ronald E. Teachman, the police chief in South Bend, Ind., said he decided not to request a mine-resistant vehicle for his city. "I go to schools,” he said. “But I bring ‘Green Eggs and Ham.’ ”
The Pentagon program does not push equipment onto local departments. The pace of transfers depends on how much unneeded equipment the military has, and how much the police request. Equipment that goes unclaimed typically is destroyed. So police chiefs say their choice is often easy: Ask for free equipment that would otherwise be scrapped, or look for money in their budgets to prepare for an unlikely scenario. Most people understand, police officers say.
"When you explain that you’re preparing for something that may never happen, they get it,” said Capt. Tiger Parsons of the Buchanan County Sheriff’s Office in northwest Missouri, which recently received a mine-resistant truck.
Pentagon data suggest how the police are arming themselves for such worst-case scenarios. Since 2006, the police in six states have received magazines that carry 100 rounds of M-16 ammunition, allowing officers to fire continuously for three times longer than normal. Twenty-two states obtained equipment to detect buried land mines.
In the Indianapolis suburbs, officers said they needed a mine-resistant vehicle to protect against a possible attack by veterans returning from war.
“You have a lot of people who are coming out of the military that have the ability and knowledge to build I.E.D.’s and to defeat law enforcement techniques,” Sgt. Dan Downing of the Morgan County Sheriff’s Department told the local Fox affiliate, referring to improvised explosive devices, or homemade bombs. Sergeant Downing did not return a message seeking comment.
The police in 38 states have received silencers, which soldiers use to muffle gunfire during raids and sniper attacks. Lauren Wild, the sheriff in rural Walsh County, N.D., said he saw no need for silencers. When told he had 40 of them for his county of 11,000 people, Sheriff Wild confirmed it with a colleague and said he would look into it. "I don’t recall approving them,” he said.
Some officials are reconsidering their eagerness to take the gear. Last year, the sheriff’s office in Oxford County, Maine, told county officials that it wanted a mine-resistant vehicle because Maine’s western foothills “face a previously unimaginable threat from terrorist activities.”
County commissioners approved the request, but recently rescinded it at the sheriff’s request. Scott Cole, the county administrator, said some people expressed concerns about the truck, and the police were comfortable that a neighboring community could offer its vehicle in an emergency.
At the Neenah City Council, Mr. Pollnow is pushing for a requirement that the council vote on all equipment transfers. When he asks about the need for military equipment, he said the answer is always the same: It protects police officers.
“Who’s going to be against that? You’re against the police coming home safe at night?” he said. “But you can always present a worst-case scenario. You can use that as a framework to get anything.”
Chief Wilkinson said he was not interested in militarizing Neenah. But officers are shot, even in small towns. If there were an affordable way to protect his people without the new truck, he would do it.
“I hate having our community divided over a law enforcement issue like this. But we are,” he said. “It drives me to my knees in prayer for the safety of this community every day. And it convinced me that this was the right thing for our community.”
In the Indianapolis suburbs, officers said they needed a mine-resistant vehicle to protect against a possible attack by veterans returning from war.
“You have a lot of people who are coming out of the military that have the ability and knowledge to build I.E.D.’s and to defeat law enforcement techniques,” Sgt. Dan Downing of the Morgan County Sheriff’s Department told the local Fox affiliate, referring to improvised explosive devices, or homemade bombs. Sergeant Downing did not return a message seeking comment.
Are you fething kidding me? Who the feth in the military is building IEDs? I can see some people knowing how, but a lot? And how the feth is it justifiable to suggest servicemen are going to become terrorists?
If this article isn't a pile of made up bs...well then I am completely justified in distrusting and disliking police. This is complete insanity.
They produce MATV's and MRAP's in Appleton, WI. Up the road road from Neenah. In fact, one of the factory is behind the reserve center on Ballard Rd. Its a pretty good size holding area for them. It has has been known that MATV's were going to be issued out to LEO agencies in mid northern states.
In the Indianapolis suburbs, officers said they needed a mine-resistant vehicle to protect against a possible attack by veterans returning from war.
“You have a lot of people who are coming out of the military that have the ability and knowledge to build I.E.D.’s and to defeat law enforcement techniques,” Sgt. Dan Downing of the Morgan County Sheriff’s Department told the local Fox affiliate, referring to improvised explosive devices, or homemade bombs. Sergeant Downing did not return a message seeking comment.
Are you fething kidding me? Who the feth in the military is building IEDs? I can see some people knowing how, but a lot? And how the feth is it justifiable to suggest servicemen are going to become terrorists?
If this article isn't a pile of made up bs...well then I am completely justified in distrusting and disliking police. This is complete insanity.
Well the US government views returning veterans as a terrorist risk to this country...
Asherian Command wrote: I think thats everyone's que if anyone is not native to this country to get the hell out before we got another rouge military force.
Asherian Command wrote: I think thats everyone's que if anyone is not native to this country to get the hell out before we got another rouge military force.
wat?
*Obscure reference to movie*
Sorry. About that. but anyway back on topic. Giving any military weapons to the PO-PO is kind of dumb, because the police forces here in my area are quite trigger happy. And boy are they itching for action, so giving them weapons like that is stupid.
They seriously think that people are using IEDs against the police? wtf?
That's a major insult to suggest that they need to ready themselves against the vets returning from the middle east, this isn't fething Rambo.
IEDs shouldn't be a police concern as we don't have roadside bombings in any sort of daily situation and even if we did what good does an armor vehicle do? Charging through exploding streets to where and what cause? Military troops need those vehicles because their movements are continuously in enemy territory and subject to constant potential attack. Sure it makes the police officers feel safe to roll up to a bank robbery or a drug house in a super armored carrier but the threat levels are entirely different, the intended use is for soldiers in a full on war zone, police use it's overkill as they could use an armored van.
Second thing is that crap is expensive, even getting it as military surplus military vehicles are tremendously expensive to maintain. That means the police departments are upping their operation budgets and that all comes out of taxpayer pockets. There are so many other things that need priority before we start paying police officers to joyride around in military vehicles and stroke their paramilitary wang. It makes me sick when cops start pretending they are "operators" and not civil servants. Leave that crap to the military.
Vehicle itself is not that expensive of an upkeep as long one knows how to drive it. Its the "Go to War" mission equipment that add's up. SINGARS, Blue Force Tracker, CROW, RHINO (not the bed cover), etc.
Maintaining the vehicles is expensive, armored vehicles can't be taken to the standard auto shop for repairs not can they be taken to you local tire place every time they need a new wheel. They require a bit more work then you standard ASE mechanic. That means bringing on an extra mechanic that has those skills. Sourcing parts for repair and service is also more expensive as they are a non standard item and not stocked by local supply and vendors. I worked as a mechanic in a service shop and we'd occasionally get in municipal vehicles, we could service some stuff but since most of their vehicles required higher rated tires for safety concerns they are much more expensive then comparable civilian vehicles. Tires on an average police cruiser run about $450 a piece, ambulance tires are around $1400, the tires on an armored vehicle likely several thousand each. Keeping the vehicle in running order would likely equal the budget for maintaining several normal squads, not to mention factoring in how much more gas armored military vehicles tend to consume even just with occasional use. An 11 ton armored vehicle is not cheap to maintain.
In the Indianapolis suburbs, officers said they needed a mine-resistant vehicle to protect against a possible attack by veterans returning from war.
“You have a lot of people who are coming out of the military that have the ability and knowledge to build I.E.D.’s and to defeat law enforcement techniques,” Sgt. Dan Downing of the Morgan County Sheriff’s Department told the local Fox affiliate, referring to improvised explosive devices, or homemade bombs. Sergeant Downing did not return a message seeking comment.
Are you fething kidding me? Who the feth in the military is building IEDs? I can see some people knowing how, but a lot? And how the feth is it justifiable to suggest servicemen are going to become terrorists?
If this article isn't a pile of made up bs...well then I am completely justified in distrusting and disliking police. This is complete insanity.
Military dumps the gear so it can buy new gear.
Police want gear because its tacticool and Sheriff Roscoe went all hah hah hah at them last year when the sheriffs got their tacticool B52, and the Police want to keep up.
Yea its because of mines...
THE PROBLEM IS a three ponged nexus of bad day:
1. Tacticool builds the Tacticool occupier mindset
2. No knock warrant searches have expanded to speeding tickets resulting in people getting killed.
3. Militia types get more militia'y, and regular folks start viewing the PoPo as an occupying force, just like in LA (outside of cutesy Hollywood areas).
“You have a lot of people who are coming out of the military that have the ability and knowledge to build I.E.D.’s and to defeat law enforcement techniques,” Sgt. Dan Downing of the Morgan County Sheriff’s Department told the local Fox affiliate, referring to improvised explosive devices, or homemade bombs. Sergeant Downing did not return a message seeking comment.
sounds like this guy has read to many Jack Ryan novels.
But I don't know this kind of seems like a grey area will at least some parts. if you look at it one way it seems really crazy especially one you already have stories of police carrying out all kinds of brutality against innocent people armed with nothing but pistols and clubs, it makes you think what kind of horrible things could happen when some trigger happy police get carried away with a armored truck. But on the other hand what if another Waco siege happens or a Ruby Ridge then the police seem like their in the right for having this kind of stuff around for something like that. Anyway I'm not an expert so don't quote me on this.
Here are the links to the Waco siege and Ruby ridge that I mentioned above if anyone is interested.
Maintaining the vehicles is expensive, armored vehicles can't be taken to the standard auto shop for repairs not can they be taken to you local tire place every time they need a new wheel. They require a bit more work then you standard ASE mechanic. That means bringing on an extra mechanic that has those skills. Sourcing parts for repair and service is also more expensive as they are a non standard item and not stocked by local supply and vendors. I worked as a mechanic in a service shop and we'd occasionally get in municipal vehicles, we could service some stuff but since most of their vehicles required higher rated tires for safety concerns they are much more expensive then comparable civilian vehicles. Tires on an average police cruiser run about $450 a piece, ambulance tires are around $1400, the tires on an armored vehicle likely several thousand each. Keeping the vehicle in running order would likely equal the budget for maintaining several normal squads, not to mention factoring in how much more gas armored military vehicles tend to consume even just with occasional use. An 11 ton armored vehicle is not cheap to maintain.
Except that MRAP/MATV is not going to some "local" vehicle repair shop. Maintenance contracts are going to go with the vehicles from Oshkosh. They also outsource maintenance contracts to a few others contract firms. Or the state can, after bingo maintenance contracts, service the vehicles at National Guard "Third Shop" for military vehicles since they fall under "Heavy Wheel Mechanic MOS" domain. I have yet to see a old school HUMVEE or up armor go to a local repair shop for maintenance
ds9lord wrote: But on the other hand what if another Waco siege happens or a Ruby Ridge then the police seem like their in the right for having this kind of stuff around for something like that.
That's what calling in the ATF, FBI, National Guards is for. Local level police do not need that type of equipment.
Grey Templar wrote:Let the local SWAT have some armored cars, but don't give them military grade ordinance
Grey Templar wrote:Only if it doesn't allow me to have military grade ordinance myself. Which it originally did and should allow.
You keep using that word. I do not believe it means what you think it means.
Well they are running around with fully automatic and select fire weapons, we the civilians are not. That would be the "military grade" he is referring to.
Only if it doesn't allow me to have military grade ordinance myself. Which it originally did and should allow.
No. Just no.
I am extremely suspicious of police, and am outraged at the level of arrogance many LEO's exhibit over civilians, their abuses of pesky things like civil rights and the bodily harm they inflict and are not prosecuted for, but even then there is no way that I'd ever advocate that Americans should be allowed to poses military grade ordinance. We are having almost weekly mass shootings the last thing we need is to up the killing potential of our domestic lunatics by giving them "the good stuff" just so a percentage of our population can feel secure in their home-made bunkers waiting for their chance to fire at the government. No. Fething no.
Well, they are two completely different words with two completely different meanings, and it was a great excuse for a Princess Bride reference. I'm weak, I admit.
Ouze wrote: Well, they are two completely different words with two completely different meanings, and it was a great excuse for a Princess Bride reference. I'm weak, I admit.
I'd say something about falling back to grammer nazi'ing in a debate, but since you had to go and Princess Bride it... I'll let it go.
Only if it doesn't allow me to have military grade ordinance myself. Which it originally did and should allow.
No. Just no.
I am extremely suspicious of police, and am outraged at the level of arrogance many LEO's exhibit over civilians, their abuses of pesky things like civil rights and the bodily harm they inflict and are not prosecuted for, but even then there is no way that I'd ever advocate that Americans should be allowed to poses military grade ordinance. We are having almost weekly mass shootings the last thing we need is to up the killing potential of our domestic lunatics by giving them "the good stuff" just so a percentage of our population can feel secure in their home-made bunkers waiting for their chance to fire at the government. No. Fething no.
If a person has hundreds of thousands of dollars to spend on military grade ordnance, I don't think you would need to worry about them going on any shooting rampage.... I think they would be financially and economically secure to not want to kill people on mass to get recognition.
Only if it doesn't allow me to have military grade ordinance myself. Which it originally did and should allow.
No. Just no.
I am extremely suspicious of police, and am outraged at the level of arrogance many LEO's exhibit over civilians, their abuses of pesky things like civil rights and the bodily harm they inflict and are not prosecuted for, but even then there is no way that I'd ever advocate that Americans should be allowed to poses military grade ordinance. We are having almost weekly mass shootings the last thing we need is to up the killing potential of our domestic lunatics by giving them "the good stuff" just so a percentage of our population can feel secure in their home-made bunkers waiting for their chance to fire at the government. No. Fething no.
If a person has hundreds of thousands of dollars to spend on military grade ordnance, I don't think you would need to worry about them going on any shooting rampage.... I think they would be financially and economically secure to not want to kill people on mass to get recognition.
Great. So criminal organizations, corporate security, and other deep pocketed groups with agendas would be fine too, right? And they would never do anything bad with those legal toys. Right?
And the "evil" government and law enforcement agencies would then have justification for getting even scarier gear because every Tom, Dick and Captain Badass living in his silo-fort are now legitimate threats that need to be countered. Congrats! We now live in the Shadowrun universe.
Great. So criminal organizations, corporate security, and other deep pocketed groups with agendas would be fine too, right? And they would never do anything bad with those legal toys. Right?
And the "evil" government and law enforcement agencies would then have justification for getting even scarier gear because every Tom, Dick and Captain Badass living in his silo-fort are now legitimate threats that need to be countered. Congrats! We now live in the Shadowrun universe.
criminal organizations
criminal
Because they follow the law?
corporate security
That already have "Military Grade" weapons? Search PMC.
If I had the money to own and maintain a M1A2 abrams, why should I not be allowed to own one? Why are you afraid of something that I own?
djones520 wrote: When was the last time a millionaire went on a mass killing spree?
Whats the ratio of millionares to normal people?
We'll we're discussing the risk of citizens buying AH-64's and loading them up with Hellfires... so it's really only going to be that small segment of the population who could do that. So what does the ratio matter?
djones520 wrote: When was the last time a millionaire went on a mass killing spree?
Whats the ratio of millionares to normal people?
We'll we're discussing the risk of citizens buying AH-64's and loading them up with Hellfires... so it's really only going to be that small segment of the population who could do that. So what does the ratio matter?
Waste of taxpayers money. Cheap drone from amazon with shaped charge, lands on roof , detonates and oven roast pork. Most armoured vehicles have armoured and shaped bottoms, to control and deflect explosives. Roofs not so much. Who needs hellfires.
loki old fart wrote: Cheap drone from amazon with shaped charge, lands on roof , detonates and oven roast pork.
That settles it, I'm getting BBQ for lunch.
We have the same problem in England. The police becoming separated from the public. It used to be our police protecting us from the criminals(dixon of dock green). Then it became them and us(the miners strike). People no longer see the police as friends.
Its the reason why mass murders, in the traditional sense, tend not to be millionaires.
Ok? Well the argument would be that mass murders would be worse because said weapons would fall into the hands of mass murderers. Well how, since these things are stupid expensive?
Maintaining the vehicles is expensive, armored vehicles can't be taken to the standard auto shop for repairs not can they be taken to you local tire place every time they need a new wheel. They require a bit more work then you standard ASE mechanic. That means bringing on an extra mechanic that has those skills. Sourcing parts for repair and service is also more expensive as they are a non standard item and not stocked by local supply and vendors. I worked as a mechanic in a service shop and we'd occasionally get in municipal vehicles, we could service some stuff but since most of their vehicles required higher rated tires for safety concerns they are much more expensive then comparable civilian vehicles. Tires on an average police cruiser run about $450 a piece, ambulance tires are around $1400, the tires on an armored vehicle likely several thousand each. Keeping the vehicle in running order would likely equal the budget for maintaining several normal squads, not to mention factoring in how much more gas armored military vehicles tend to consume even just with occasional use. An 11 ton armored vehicle is not cheap to maintain.
Except that MRAP/MATV is not going to some "local" vehicle repair shop. Maintenance contracts are going to go with the vehicles from Oshkosh. They also outsource maintenance contracts to a few others contract firms. Or the state can, after bingo maintenance contracts, service the vehicles at National Guard "Third Shop" for military vehicles since they fall under "Heavy Wheel Mechanic MOS" domain. I have yet to see a old school HUMVEE or up armor go to a local repair shop for maintenance
Not to mention that actually, depending on model the engine is actually a fairly standard "large power diesel" engine... Gen 1 MRAPs were International semi-trucks with altered chassis in order to have the purpose built bodies on them.
Is it bad of me to wonder when I'll start seeing them at the military surplus store alongside the old deuce and halfs, and 5 tons?
Ensis you game at the Puyallup store? The one run by Jay?
The GW on Meridian, or Game Matrix?? Lol
If its the first, I've been there, but I'm still not caught up on editions... I'd love to get some games in, or meet some folks who prefer gaming at home around here (I honestly prefer the "beer games" to in store)
Great. So criminal organizations, corporate security, and other deep pocketed groups with agendas would be fine too, right? And they would never do anything bad with those legal toys. Right?
And the "evil" government and law enforcement agencies would then have justification for getting even scarier gear because every Tom, Dick and Captain Badass living in his silo-fort are now legitimate threats that need to be countered. Congrats! We now live in the Shadowrun universe.
criminal organizations
criminal
Because they follow the law?
corporate security
That already have "Military Grade" weapons? Search PMC.
If I had the money to own and maintain a M1A2 abrams, why should I not be allowed to own one? Why are you afraid of something that I own?
Yeah, criminal organizations. Because in this What If scenario military grade toys are legal. So, why wouldn't the Mafia go down to Walmart to buy AT rockets? They have the deep pockets you mentioned previously that would prevent regular civvies from going on mass murder sprees due to the costs involved in procuring military grade ordinance. That was your counter argument, wasn't it? So I am offering suggestions of groups who would GLEEFULLY buy legal military gear if it was stupidly made available.
Look, because the civilians and the military in the late 18th century had rough parity in terms of weaponry doesn't mean the 2nd amendment should allow Grey Templar to own a rocket launcher. It is a stupid assertion to make.
Great. So criminal organizations, corporate security, and other deep pocketed groups with agendas would be fine too, right? And they would never do anything bad with those legal toys. Right?
And the "evil" government and law enforcement agencies would then have justification for getting even scarier gear because every Tom, Dick and Captain Badass living in his silo-fort are now legitimate threats that need to be countered. Congrats! We now live in the Shadowrun universe.
criminal organizations
criminal
Because they follow the law?
corporate security
That already have "Military Grade" weapons? Search PMC.
If I had the money to own and maintain a M1A2 abrams, why should I not be allowed to own one? Why are you afraid of something that I own?
Yeah, criminal organizations. Because in this What If scenario military grade toys are legal. So, why wouldn't the Mafia go down to Walmart to buy AT rockets? They have the deep pockets you mentioned previously that would prevent regular civvies from going on mass murder sprees due to the costs involved in procuring military grade ordinance. That was your counter argument, wasn't it? So I am offering suggestions of groups who would GLEEFULLY buy legal military gear if it was stupidly made available.
Look, because the civilians and the military in the late 18th century had rough parity in terms of weaponry doesn't mean the 2nd amendment should allow Grey Templar to own a rocket launcher. It is a stupid assertion to make.
Actually it should.
And no, the mafia isn't going to go to Walmart to purchase their weapons. And Walmart wouldn't be selling things which would have 5-6 figure price tags.
The mafia also would know that buying said weapons wouldn't be cost effective. They get the results they want with much cheaper hand guns.
And any criminal organizations who really want high explosives can get them. RPGs are a dime a dozen on the black market and would be a cinch to smuggle over the border. Having a domestically available source doesn't really make it easier.
The point of the 2nd amendment was so that the people would always have the capacity to overthrow the government. This would be the natural conclusion of that fundamental right.
Great. So criminal organizations, corporate security, and other deep pocketed groups with agendas would be fine too, right? And they would never do anything bad with those legal toys. Right?
And the "evil" government and law enforcement agencies would then have justification for getting even scarier gear because every Tom, Dick and Captain Badass living in his silo-fort are now legitimate threats that need to be countered. Congrats! We now live in the Shadowrun universe.
criminal organizations
criminal
Because they follow the law?
corporate security
That already have "Military Grade" weapons? Search PMC.
If I had the money to own and maintain a M1A2 abrams, why should I not be allowed to own one? Why are you afraid of something that I own?
Yeah, criminal organizations. Because in this What If scenario military grade toys are legal. So, why wouldn't the Mafia go down to Walmart to buy AT rockets? They have the deep pockets you mentioned previously that would prevent regular civvies from going on mass murder sprees due to the costs involved in procuring military grade ordinance. That was your counter argument, wasn't it? So I am offering suggestions of groups who would GLEEFULLY buy legal military gear if it was stupidly made available.
Look, because the civilians and the military in the late 18th century had rough parity in terms of weaponry doesn't mean the 2nd amendment should allow Grey Templar to own a rocket launcher. It is a stupid assertion to make.
Actually it should.
And no, the mafia isn't going to go to Walmart to purchase their weapons. And Walmart wouldn't be selling things which would have 5-6 figure price tags.
The mafia also would know that buying said weapons wouldn't be cost effective. They get the results they want with much cheaper hand guns.
And any criminal organizations who really want high explosives can get them. RPGs are a dime a dozen on the black market and would be a cinch to smuggle over the border. Having a domestically available source doesn't really make it easier.
The point of the 2nd amendment was so that the people would always have the capacity to overthrow the government. This would be the natural conclusion of that fundamental right.
You stated that military ordinance should be made available to you thanks to the 2nd amendment. That is a ridiculous statement for a number of reasons, including the arms race that would occur between government and non-government bodies. It is ridiculous because the world that existed in the 1770's is not the same world that we live in in 2014.
*Well feth. I had an addendum to this post and hit the cancel button instead of the update button.
There wouldn't be any arms race. The private citizens would never be able to have anywhere near as much hardware as the government would.
I want the right to be able to have the hardware, a right that hopefully I will never have to exercise or use.
The most any citizen would realistically be expected to have would be a few RPGs or HMGs. Which I think is perfectly reasonable.
And given the militarization of the police force(and the increased government trampling on our rights) it seems entirely reasonable, and even necessary.
The world may have changed since 1776, but not in the respect that we are safe from tyranny and oppression from our own government(the government has greatly expanded its power)
Grey Templar wrote: There wouldn't be any arms race. The private citizens would never be able to have anywhere near as much hardware as the government would.
I want the right to be able to have the hardware, a right that hopefully I will never have to exercise or use.
The most any citizen would realistically be expected to have would be a few RPGs or HMGs. Which I think is perfectly reasonable.
How can you say there wouldn't be an arms race when police have already been adding to their arsenals since the 90's to counter ever more powerful criminals?
If each citizen could have a few RPGs or HMGs, even if there were limits, what would stop a group of like minded individuals from forming up and pooling their resources? Now there is a well armed militia that could do massive amounts of damage. Instead of three dead people in a Cici's Pizza we could have 65 dead and an entire strip mall aflame. And police and government agencies wouldn't need to get even more substantial gear to thwart that danger? I don't see how an arms race wouldn't occur.
It just seems like a bad, bad idea to give people that much destructive power for a "what if" scenario that likely won't ever occur.
You also have to figure that, while we pay what... 1.2 million or so for the M1 Abrams tank, that cost (whatever it actually is) is based per unit on a BULK order.
If a private citizen wanted to own an M1 abrams I'd figure you'd pay more like 1.8 or 2 million for a single tank.
And then it'd sit there, because you should realize that there aint a towing company in America with something big enough to haul it around should you break it
As GT pointed out, most of us civvies wouldn't be able to afford the kind of toys the govt has. At least not on any meaningful scale.
Grey Templar wrote: There wouldn't be any arms race. The private citizens would never be able to have anywhere near as much hardware as the government would.
I want the right to be able to have the hardware, a right that hopefully I will never have to exercise or use.
The most any citizen would realistically be expected to have would be a few RPGs or HMGs. Which I think is perfectly reasonable.
How can you say there wouldn't be an arms race when police have already been adding to their arsenals since the 90's to counter ever more powerful criminals?
If each citizen could have a few RPGs or HMGs, even if there were limits, what would stop a group of like minded individuals from forming up and pooling their resources? Now there is a well armed militia that could do massive amounts of damage. Instead of three dead people in a Cici's Pizza we could have 65 dead and an entire strip mall aflame. And police and government agencies wouldn't need to get even more substantial gear to thwart that danger? I don't see how an arms race wouldn't occur.
It just seems like a bad, bad idea to give people that much destructive power for a "what if" scenario that likely won't ever occur.
Given that there are already people who have armories like that, legally or not, and we haven't had a mass killing involving those I'd say we are pretty safe.
Most mass shootings aren't even committed using the scary "military style assault weapons" that everyone wants to ban. They're done with shotguns or handguns which are legal everywhere and nobody is trying to ban.
Defense contractors built so many MRAPs, might as well not let them go to waste. The coment about vets building IEDs was dumb but a lot of the military's unneeded COIN equipment might as well go the the police, better than just taking up space.
And its not like the police haven't already got assault rifles and silencers and stuff like that. The military isn't going to be handing out M1A2s any time soon so I'm not sure what the issue here is?
Romania and Poland brought quite bit of MRAPS family. Israel brought some but they asked for mostly the Uparmor Frag 7 HUMVEE's.
Egypt received Frag 7's
Not sure on Jordan but a couple MATV's
In response to the allegations that cops have something to fear in the U.S. there were 39 slain LEOs in 2013... meanwhile LEOs killed 316 individuals. 10 to 1, now that list is wiki sourced AND includes bad guys, but if any one's got any thing to fear in the U.S. I'm more scared of the guy with the badge just based on the numbers.
So, now "2nd Amendment supporters" are arguing that it is for Universal weapon systems? That means the "terrorists" could legally buy a Nuke right?
This is why we can't have a rational debate on weapons. The goal posts move to insanity in attempts to move the Overton Window.
The new Chicago Code:
1. If they disrespect you you send one of theirs to the hospital
2. If they send one of yours to the hospital you send one of their to the morgue.
3. If they send one of yours to the morgue, you use a chemical weapon attack to kill everyone in their neighborhood.
Your right. This is why we can't have rational debate, because people always make ludicrous claims about militia-Bob having 5 million sitting around to buy a nuke.
I remember way back in 90's. We switched to Kiowa Warriors and the old OH-58 were being passed down to LEO. Quite a few were destroyed because states could not fund their operations for their LEO's
djones520 wrote: Ahhh... comforting to know that police agencies around the country view me as the enemy now...
"Welcome home. Thank you for serving your country abroad. Your benefits have been slashed from what was agreed when you signed up. You should hope not to end up on a secret list when you go to the VA. Illegal immigrants will get more benefits, and get them before you. You should also be aware that because you served your country we will now consider you a domestic terrorist. Have a super sparkly day"
djones520 wrote: Your right. This is why we can't have rational debate, because people always make ludicrous claims about militia-Bob having 5 million sitting around to buy a nuke.
Okay, I will replace Nuke with Long Tom artillery piece.
So, now "2nd Amendment supporters" are arguing that it is for Universal weapon systems? That means the any old milita wannabe could legally buy a Long Tom artillery piece right?
This is why we can't have a rational debate on weapons. The goal posts move to insanity in attempts to move the Overton Window.
The new Chicago Code:
1. If they disrespect you you send one of theirs to the hospital
2. If they send one of yours to the hospital you send one of their to the morgue.
3. If they send one of yours to the morgue, you shell the neighborhood into rubble.
EmilCrane wrote: Defense contractors built so many MRAPs, might as well not let them go to waste. The coment about vets building IEDs was dumb but a lot of the military's unneeded COIN equipment might as well go the the police, better than just taking up space.
And its not like the police haven't already got assault rifles and silencers and stuff like that. The military isn't going to be handing out M1A2s any time soon so I'm not sure what the issue here is?
No its better to let it take up space. We didn't hand out M48 tanks to the PoPo either.
djones520 wrote: Ahhh... comforting to know that police agencies around the country view me as the enemy now...
"Welcome home. Thank you for serving your country abroad. Your benefits have been slashed from what was agreed when you signed up. You should hope not to end up on a secret list when you go to the VA. Illegal immigrants will get more benefits, and get them before you. You should also be aware that because you served your country we will now consider you a domestic terrorist. Have a super sparkly day"
This. Freaking cops man.
Also can someone tell me what Easy E's on about? He seems to just be rambling.
djones520 wrote: Ahhh... comforting to know that police agencies around the country view me as the enemy now...
"Welcome home. Thank you for serving your country abroad. Your benefits have been slashed from what was agreed when you signed up. You should hope not to end up on a secret list when you go to the VA. Illegal immigrants will get more benefits, and get them before you. You should also be aware that because you served your country we will now consider you a domestic terrorist. Have a super sparkly day"
This. Freaking cops man.
Also can someone tell me what Easy E's on about? He seems to just be rambling.
The Long Tom is a 155M artillery piece. It would be perfectly acceptable for anyone to own according to Grey Templar under his interpretation of the 2nd Amendment.
Easy E wrote: The Long Tom is a 155M artillery piece. It would be perfectly acceptable for anyone to own according to Grey Templar under his interpretation of the 2nd Amendment.
I happen to think this is an insane idea.
Why is it insane?? I mean, how much does/did it cost the US military to purchase them? As I sort of showed in my Abrams example earlier in the thread, the DoD (and other nations' militaries) pays a reduced rate for buying a bunch at once... I'd heard from supply and armorers in my prior units that the US Govt spends around 800 per rifle on the M-16/M-4... If you look online, a standard semi-auto AR-15 chambered in 5.56mm goes for around what... 1500?? that's what, a 50% or so discount? Assuming the military pays a reduced rate for the larger field guns/howitzers means that it will quite literally be priced out of the average citizens buying power.
EmilCrane wrote: Defense contractors built so many MRAPs, might as well not let them go to waste. The coment about vets building IEDs was dumb but a lot of the military's unneeded COIN equipment might as well go the the police, better than just taking up space.
And its not like the police haven't already got assault rifles and silencers and stuff like that. The military isn't going to be handing out M1A2s any time soon so I'm not sure what the issue here is?
No its better to let it take up space. We didn't hand out M48 tanks to the PoPo either.
Jihadin wrote: You can own it. Just cannot have the pin in the firing block same as tanks
As for ammo Good luck on locating 155mm rounds on the commercial market
I think you know what I meant. I happen to know a person who's business is all about getting armored vehicles and tanks for people to drive around in. That is not what Grey Templar is supporting.
He wants tanks that are fully capable of firing off live rounds because that is his inalienable right under the 2nd Amendment. Maybe I'm misinterpreting him, but tha tis what I got from his comments.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Ensis Ferrae wrote: means that it will quite literally be priced out of the average citizens buying power.
Yes, the Average citizen. By definition that means there will be some sub-set of people that can buy such items. In addition, several people can pool their money together and buy one as well.
You know there is a reason we regulate fertilizer sales, that reason applies to why you can't have a 155mm artillery piece.
To add more to the firing pin and since its sensitive item. You cannot get the gunner sight deflection nor elevation component for it. Also a collimeter. Aiming poles can be made and taking out 100m in a 45 degree angle of the piece. Without the collimeter and reliable FDC its only good for direct fire mode. I do know though there is a modification using a 50 cal round as a 155mm round
I see no problem with the armored vehicles.
A large measure of safety I would not begrudge the police.
May have to monitor civilian casualties due to "crushed to death by vehicle".
Weapons at full automatic however is contrary to any attempt at public safety. Should have a notification if set at full auto a 10 pound pile of reports will have to be filled out in triplicate and after the gun battle you have to pepper spray yourself in the eyes (just to be sure you REALLY need that full auto).
Crazy is as crazy does, so when they get the big guns it seems responsible to up-gun the law enforcement.
It is hard though when to the core of your being you do not "trust" the government to have your best interests at heart. To see the very public arm of enforcing the will of the government receive some over the top kit can make one nervous as a citizen.
What is that phrase, "You can have freedom or security, but you cannot have both."
The police should never be that protected. What's the point of having the 2nd to keep the government in check if our bullets won't penetrate their armor!
d-usa wrote: The police should never be that protected. What's the point of having the 2nd to keep the government in check if our bullets won't penetrate their armor!
Hey if you like cops patrolling American streets Fallujah style I hear they need nurses in Baghdad.
Wearing all that body armor will trim them up Though some won't drink water constantly Unions would ask for more money since its above and beyond then what's required for their job Cops operating a crew serve, which would be a massacre in NY being how they train their LEO on taking down a suspect Cops be tired of the weight and remove plates out of them and then sue the industry for making faulty gear Cops having heart attacks from all the neat tacticool gear they can mount on the body armor
Jihadin wrote: Wearing all that body armor will trim them up Though some won't drink water constantly Unions would ask for more money since its above and beyond then what's required for their job Cops operating a crew serve, which would be a massacre in NY being how they train their LEO on taking down a suspect Cops be tired of the weight and remove plates out of them and then sue the industry for making faulty gear Cops having heart attacks from all the neat tacticool gear they can mount on the body armor
On the plus side, many of them already have the proper mustache
Jihadin wrote: Wearing all that body armor will trim them up Though some won't drink water constantly Unions would ask for more money since its above and beyond then what's required for their job Cops operating a crew serve, which would be a massacre in NY being how they train their LEO on taking down a suspect Cops be tired of the weight and remove plates out of them and then sue the industry for making faulty gear Cops having heart attacks from all the neat tacticool gear they can mount on the body armor
On the plus side, many of them already have the proper mustache
EmilCrane wrote: Defense contractors built so many MRAPs, might as well not let them go to waste. The coment about vets building IEDs was dumb but a lot of the military's unneeded COIN equipment might as well go the the police, better than just taking up space.
And its not like the police haven't already got assault rifles and silencers and stuff like that. The military isn't going to be handing out M1A2s any time soon so I'm not sure what the issue here is?
No its better to let it take up space. We didn't hand out M48 tanks to the PoPo either.
An MRAP is not an M48, for one thing the M48 has a 90 or 105mm cannon, MRAPs come unarmed, or at least their function is unchanged if you remove the pintle mount. No one is talking about giving the police MBTs, but those MRAPs are going to waste and they actually have police applications, or least could be used by the police. A tank could not.
An MRAP is not an M48, for one thing the M48 has a 90 or 105mm cannon, MRAPs come unarmed, or at least their function is unchanged if you remove the pintle mount. No one is talking about giving the police MBTs, but those MRAPs are going to waste and they actually have police applications, or least could be used by the police. A tank could not.
Actually, I'd rather see more of these MRAPs and the like retro fitted for S/R or forest fire/fire fighting duties, rather than your typical law enforcement applications. They can handle some pretty rugged terrain, and are pretty good at moving people from point A to B and I think people would be far less "against" the idea if they knew they were being used for strictly "good" things.
An MRAP is not an M48, for one thing the M48 has a 90 or 105mm cannon, MRAPs come unarmed, or at least their function is unchanged if you remove the pintle mount. No one is talking about giving the police MBTs, but those MRAPs are going to waste and they actually have police applications, or least could be used by the police. A tank could not.
Actually, I'd rather see more of these MRAPs and the like retro fitted for S/R or forest fire/fire fighting duties, rather than your typical law enforcement applications. They can handle some pretty rugged terrain, and are pretty good at moving people from point A to B and I think people would be far less "against" the idea if they knew they were being used for strictly "good" things.
An MRAP is not an M48, for one thing the M48 has a 90 or 105mm cannon, MRAPs come unarmed, or at least their function is unchanged if you remove the pintle mount. No one is talking about giving the police MBTs, but those MRAPs are going to waste and they actually have police applications, or least could be used by the police. A tank could not.
Actually, I'd rather see more of these MRAPs and the like retro fitted for S/R or forest fire/fire fighting duties, rather than your typical law enforcement applications. They can handle some pretty rugged terrain, and are pretty good at moving people from point A to B and I think people would be far less "against" the idea if they knew they were being used for strictly "good" things.
But they aren't.
I know... But it'd still be a better placement for them, rather than further militarizing LEOs
Talizvar wrote: What is that phrase, "You can have freedom or security, but you cannot have both."
I believe the phrase is "he who is willing to sacrifice freedom for security deserves neither" ... could also replace "deserves" with "gets"
Ah Benjamin Franklin: "They who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety".
I was leaning toward the Liberty side rather than safety anyway so it is all good and I have the correct quote rather than butchering it further...
Automatically Appended Next Post: Hmmmm...
Just was thinking with those super heavy military type vehicles they can do double duty at finding sinkholes or water main leaks by just driving them around?
Could be interesting to see what bridges or overpasses they would not be able to drive on.
The military rifles just have the fine question of how far or how much stuff can these bullets pass through until they stop? Hitting civilians a quarter mile away from a full auto discharge would suck.
Talizvar wrote: The military rifles just have the fine question of how far or how much stuff can these bullets pass through until they stop? Hitting civilians a quarter mile away from a full auto discharge would suck.
Don't know about penetrating power, but according to Wikipedia the M4 rifle has a single target range of 500 meters, or 1/3rd of a mile.
Remember the accuracy the NYPD displays? I don't think we should give them non-firing cap guns, even then they'd still manage to randomly murder a few innocent bystanders per "apprehension"
Jihadin wrote: Why does LEO need crew serve weapons again? Anyone help me buy a clue for that?
You can't think of a reason for LEOs to have access to M2s or Mk19s?
It's so they cna try to kill the crew or criminals operating the 155mm Long Tom Artillery gun that they legally purchased under their 2nd Amendment rights (according to some).
WANTED-French WWI 75mm Field gun
WANTED-French WWI 75mm Field gun21 May '14 In any condition and any location. Also, looking for optical sight for the same cannon.
I like this site.
8K11 Surface-to-Surface Missile (SCUD-A)13 May '14 Perhaps the largest and most historically significant private collection of historical military vehicles in the world. Join Auctions America July 11-12, 2014 in Portola Valley, California as we offer 108 vehicles plus a day of parts and accessories from this world renown collection, all without reserve. 100% of hammer from this auction will benefit the Collings Foundation of Stow, Massachusetts.
