ferrous wrote: But then the new book made them stupidly power creeped, and gave them a slew of options they shouldn't have. Hover gears, sure why not? They've no reason to have them, but for a designers whims. Half surprised they didn't end up with triple linked MRPs.
No kidding.
I was extremely surprised there was even a flap in the first place over the [Sensor Boom] trait on the Greyhound between the two of them, but absolutely nothing was ever said subsequently after I pointed out the Harrier hover Gear model image being just as wrong.
Amusingly, the rear image of the Greyhound appears to have been taken down at some point - maybe the boom just got left off when Robert assembled the model.
Funny though that the machine pistol addition was perfectly fine. Says loads about faction favoritism and company decisions, no?
A tiny part that could be stuck on anywhere is of more concern than an image showing a wheeled SMS for a hover model.... that probably shouldn't have existed in the first place.
An opponent used the Greyhound in a test game, but I never even noticed it had (2) actions until mentioned in that DP9 thread. It's just not something I would have looked for a regular Gear model to have, even as a typo.
I do recall noticing that PILUM upgraded platoons pretty quickly lost the (size increase = a squads per carrier reduction) during the last part of testing.
Several of the model names changed at least twice, so things got pretty confusing for those.
But you can probably imagine how willing Saleem was to budge on certain things, so all that happened for the variants was about I think where he wanted them to go anyways.
Eventually it just gets to a point where you don't even bother asking if something is intentional or not because 99.999% of the time he'll say it was or just veto any suggestions of problems.
So you end up just having to bow down except on the obviously stupid inclusions, which they still don't want to hear about anyways, because pet ideas take on a life of their own in Pod products that is almost unbelievable.
The Pod is always willing to arbitrarily make changes to incorporate something they want to do, but never to alter things that need to be made more unique or coherent.
This comment is kind of telling about how he and Robert view things within the game. He liked it, along with one or two testers, so that was a favorable, and significant, baseline.
That one of the enthusiastic voices was a player who pretty much always approves of the Pod so long as they don't touch his own favored faction was conveniently not mentioned.
And don't be too surprised to see the [Firing Slits] trait end up in the v5 rules revamp anyways for Paxton or a few sub-lists. Pet ideas just don't usually die out within TPTB.
That made working up the Northern book pretty hard at times too where it didn't need to be, even though he had handed off the work.
It was OK to get things to work, but not to make much any changes, from the source material.
It got really fun when that material was contradictory, or the few testers disagreed on how something had to get implemented by directive(s).
Which a large part of the time was once again that situation discussed earlier in this topic where the Blitz ruleset allowed completely different interpretations and playstyles.
Usually there just is no neutral middle ground within the rules to try and gauge the effect of adding or tweaking something.
But IME the people that stick with the Pod as current/future freelancers & employees, or as sheeple fans, deserve everything they get as what is left of the game and setting continues to get fethed over in such a piss-poor manner.
"Mecha" as a term addition into the ruleset revamp was not an accident; This is the Pod stance for whatever future the game has left.
The more down-to-earth style from previous books is not what is wanted anymore by TPTB, and the überfans do not question it, nor allow questioning by others.
Maybe eventually HG can have it's own TRO:3055 with art generated by music industry employees that tendered the lowest bid.
Wonder how Flames of War folks would like playing their game with CAV, BT, & 40K miniatures, or else make the Dystopian Wars folks use GHQ Harpoon miniatures.
The Pod does not have nor encourage new ideas of their own, so they must copy from everywhere else, and that the sheeple can't see such a simple point endlessly written over and over on the wall is utterly silly.
I'm just tired of it all, and it may be that the best thing to do is give up on gaming entirely, because this amount of BS every day gets so old for so little.
There is never any room for a minority, in anything, anywhere.
You either have to love something absolutely without reservation, as is, or leave it.
WTF is wrong with people - at times I honestly get the impression folks think I'm/we're trying to discuss religious ideas or something similar instead of a game setting that isn't being allowed to have it's own identity.
I also notice I seem to be stuck vacillating betwixt (anger) and (depression) with occasional forays into (bargaining) while trying to end this relationship with HG.
I'm just tired of it all, and it may be that the best thing to do is give up on gaming entirely, because this amount of BS every day gets so old for so little. There is never any room for a minority, in anything.
Don't throw away the coffee with the grounds! The one nice thing about DP9 is that they make you realize how competent and caring their competitors are. That's without mentioning the comparison between the communities.
Don't give Robert the satisfaction of seeing you abandon wargaming in general! Find some other game, play it, and laugh each time you buy something, 'cause it's not money that goes towards DP9!
That's what I do.
Don't be silly. DP9 is one of the best things that's happened to me as a gamer !
First, it's the drama, the train-wreck that never stops. Sure, when you're involved with it, and trying to make things better, it's soul-crushing, yet as soon as you realize DP9 is beyond help, and you start instead to watch it all from a comfy sit and your favorite munchies at hand, it's actually pretty entertaining ! With the company and community in their last throes, it's not as spectacular as it's been before, but it still manages to surprise every now and then.
Secondly, DP9 makes pretty much every other company look good. Even GW. Each time you'll discover a new game, imagine how delighted you'll be that the rules work, the game is playable and remotely balanced, and the company occasionally releases updates and FAQs ?
@Hudson: I did my every few days check of the DP9 forums to see if Robert responded about the northern pamphlet ETA (he didn't) and I saw your post there. I engaged in some super secret top level negotiations with the pod and got them to release a preview pic of the svelt new Cheetah MK3 early just for you.
warboss wrote: I did my every few days check of the DP9 forums to see if Robert responded about the northern pamphlet ETA (he didn't)
Given the question from the generalissimo I was CC'ed on again there Saturday, and Dave's response to your comment/question on the forum topic as well as this previous one, I get the impression things aren't going so well in Pod land - because, hey, rewriting the book without the person who wrote it and knows how all of the swaps were supposed to work should've been easy, right?
I notice the preferred Facebook previews have also dried up again, so I'm guessing the Lynx highlight art preview didn't get enough positive hype comments compared to the previous "sneak peaks," misspelling and all.
HudsonD wrote: First, it's the drama, the train-wreck that never stops.
mrondeau wrote: Honestly, I would give them 1-2 years before they create something like that, but I don't think they have that long left.
I wouldn't have thought it was that hard for TPTB and the hardcore fans over there to understand the point I was trying to make yet again that while there are scads of rulesets and settings to let folks play mecha, there are almost none that aren't oriented like that.
But it's always OK to turn the latter into the former while also endlessly porting in numerous "easter eggs" from other settings into every single product because everything should always be the same for effective marketing.....
warboss wrote: I did my every few days check of the DP9 forums to see if Robert responded about the northern pamphlet ETA (he didn't)
Given the question from the generalissimo I was CC'ed on again there Saturday, and Dave's idiotic response to your comment/question on the forum topic as well as this previous one, I get the impression things aren't going so well in Pod land - because, hey, rewriting the book without the person who wrote it and knows how all of the swaps were supposed to work should've been easy, right?
I actually just rechecked (I have my forum settings set to just return back the last week or 24 hours of responses) ...and apparently dave did respond a few days ago but I could have sworn that I checked the site multiple times the day after and didn't see any response from anyone... but now there is one. Did I just miss the response? It is possible and I don't want to put on my tin foil hat if that is the case.
In any case, supposedly the northern pamphlet is still coming out in May.
mrondeau wrote: Honestly, I would give them 1-2 years before they create something like that, but I don't think they have that long left.
Yeah, that's the route they've been headed. Not that they've ever been super original, as most of their content is all cribbed from something else. Votoms-->Gears, Hovertanks-->Hammer's Slammers. GRELs-->ExoSquad (Though I'm not entirely sure which came first).
But the thing that I always liked about Heavy Gear is that it's a somewhat grounded mecha universe. It's not super hard sci-fi, but it doesn't have everything and the kitchen sink. Or at least it didn't. Didn't suffer from HeroHammer, or from larger and larger models being put on the table (which it's totally breaking that, with that stupid super hover tank, and now the gearstriders)
It never ceases to amaze me how few people it actually took for the setting to start being changed so as to include things that probably don't belong, most all of them for the sake of a very few one-off sales in lieu of fixing core issues to promote steady sales.
The Pod and it's supporters kind of remind me of national socialists, or else idealistic individuals hyped on social justice who take those views to the extremes of political correctness whether or not they have a workable plan for that power based off the unrest they inevitably cause, in that while there is never enough of either to constitute a majority group there is nevertheless always enough of them who will pull together to drown out any contrary voice they don't want to hear whilst they change things to suit whatever views they hold.
warboss wrote: In any case, supposedly the northern pamphlet is still coming out in May.
heh, He has a whole week and a few days yet, he could make it!
ferrous wrote: Yeah, that's the route they've been headed. Not that they've ever been super original, as most of their content is all cribbed from something else. Votoms-->Gears, Hovertanks-->Hammer's Slammers. GRELs-->ExoSquad (Though I'm not entirely sure which came first).
Well, ExoSquad got aired first in '93, and the 1st edition of HG got published in '94. Then again, the GRELs area actually a joke on space marines, not really neo sapiens (even though the narrative is quite similar, yes).
ferrous wrote: But the thing that I always liked about Heavy Gear is that it's a somewhat grounded mecha universe. It's not super hard sci-fi, but it doesn't have everything and the kitchen sink. Or at least it didn't. Didn't suffer from HeroHammer, or from larger and larger models being put on the table (which it's totally breaking that, with that stupid super hover tank, and now the gearstriders)
Exactly. That's what hooked me, and... well, it is diverging more and more from that with each passing year.
At least I'm lucky to know the DP9 gaming police won't come to my house to burn my old HGRPG books. And if they do, I have guns and pepper spray.
Smilodon_UP wrote: I also notice I seem to be stuck vacillating betwixt (anger) and (depression) with occasional forays into (bargaining) while trying to end this relationship with HG.
_
_
I originally got involved with the company through Jovian Chronicles. Loved the setting... except for that one awful adventure they released. And then the company shut down everything except for Heavy Gear.
I always hoped they'd manage to get JC up and running again (it was their second property, after all). But it's pretty safe to say at this point that isn't going to happen.
I always hoped they'd manage to get JC up and running again (it was their second property, after all). But it's pretty safe to say at this point that isn't going to happen.
I think JC predates HG, actually... It's initial incarnation was as a setting book for the Mekton rules.
I always hoped they'd manage to get JC up and running again (it was their second property, after all). But it's pretty safe to say at this point that isn't going to happen.
I think JC predates HG, actually... It's initial incarnation was as a setting book for the Mekton rules.
Yeah, and I actually have those two books, with Marc Vezina's signature on the inside (he found a bunch and offered them for sale on the old Jovian Chronicles Mailing List). But when Ianus Games made the name change to Dream Pod 9, Heavy Gear was the game they went with.
Of course, it was a card fighting game at first, iirc...
Oh, this is something that I have always wondered about, but why don't I see more DP9 announcements on the standard minis gaming sites? Tabletopgamingnews, TMP, etc. I rarely ever see any announcements of new figures or books, the alpha, or any of that stuff make it off the DP9 website or their facebook page.
ferrous wrote: Oh, this is something that I have always wondered about, but why don't I see more DP9 announcements on the standard minis gaming sites? Tabletopgamingnews, TMP, etc. I rarely ever see any announcements of new figures or books, the alpha, or any of that stuff make it off the DP9 website or their facebook page.
Not 100% sure why these stopped, but if I was running a small gaming company I'd want to divide communication into a couple different categories.
First is 'official' communications, which should be written, proofed, and (importantly) scheduled. Announcements should come from a single voice when possible.
The second is unofficial (or less official) stuff and should be often and responsive to the customer base. Multiple people 'closer to the ground' (I.E. the devs, artists, etc.) and post early, post often.
I know for DP9 I have assisted with the first a bit and was always annoyed because the announcement was being written or rewritten while trying to format the post. (TMP is a good site, but they use some weird non-standard quasi-HTML formatting that annoys me and is neither BBCode, HTML, or MarkDown. To be picky, Dakka uses a different dialect of BBCode than a lot of other forums, too, but it's at least close.) I thought about writing a script that would parse text in one format and spit it out in suitable formats, but then I decided I'd rather paint some minis or something else that makes me happy.
I stopped posting DP9 news on dakka dakka because dp9 news got less orderly and I really don't know what's going on with a lot of things. If I'm not excited by the news, I don't know if anyone else would be, and have a strong disinterest in wasting people's time. I also don't like things being attributed to me I didn't write, which is one reason I'm almsot an unseen presence ont he DP9forums these days except when I come out to yell at the kids to get off my lawn.
I always hoped they'd manage to get JC up and running again (it was their second property, after all). But it's pretty safe to say at this point that isn't going to happen.
I think JC predates HG, actually... It's initial incarnation was as a setting book for the Mekton rules.
Yeah, and I actually have those two books, with Marc Vezina's signature on the inside (he found a bunch and offered them for sale on the old Jovian Chronicles Mailing List). But when Ianus Games made the name change to Dream Pod 9, Heavy Gear was the game they went with.
Of course, it was a card fighting game at first, iirc...
Actually, as far as I know, the very first product to have "DP9" in it was the Project A-Ko RPG ^_^. It also sported the first iteration of Silhouette.
In their "defense", you haven't missed out on reporting much with their once a year paper product release schedule. I tried keeping up with some of the releases once you stopped but I couldn't stomach trying to advertise the Paxton stuff (the only new releases since last summer) once the full weight of the cheese they got sunk in.
I think I'm a little frustrated right now, in part, because two micro-projects I did some work on (as freebies) got ignored/turned down.
1: I had a project management/issue tracking tool (used an open source package, minimal customization) pretty much at the point where it could be put out for the community to start using. Shot down as too complicated. I knew it would be complex (these tools are) but I still feel like it wasn't give a chance.
2: I set up a basic 'datacard viewer' that was database driven. Basically a tool to make it easier to handle the Known Issue of having model stats that have typos, and make it easier to filter. Could have supported Dave's Unit Building (which I am personally not happy with) and other useful things to sort by. Maybe searching, if I had put more time in on it. Zero interest, so...
(Check out http://www.dp9.com/badlands-rally-cards?field_usage_value=All if you want to see what I was talking about. I apologize for the bad humor. BTW, this was designed off the Gencon release Badlands Rally rules, so some things may be a little weird. Spent an annoying amount of time so back-end users can use a color picker to set the card's highlight color.)
Edit: Balance, cute fire-fighting Caiman there. "Folks, everybody stay calm, the Caiman will be there shortly and we'll see if our racer's all right...."
Edit: Balance, cute fire-fighting Caiman there. "Folks, everybody stay calm, the Caiman will be there shortly and we'll see if our racer's all right...."
-Brandon F.
You might notice that TMP doesn't even show up in that top ten =)
You are right in that more announcements on that site you mentioned than I actually remember, still no Hoppers, no greyhound, no hoplite apc.
For that to get green-lighted, Robert should have been capable of understanding what you were talking about, you know.
Actually, these were Dave, but the lack of enthusiasm has not helped my mood. Both of those efforts were done with me donating the initial up-front time, so I'm pretty much burned out on doing much without permission to bill for my time. Both were interesting (for a bit) as development experience (getting the color picker and sort options for the datacard browser was fun. As it's all database driven a view could be made for the cards similar to the table views in the playtest material.)
I'm hopeful Jason & Greg (and Brandon) do something interesting with their license (despite a negative comment I made elsewhere in a moment of annoyance) as, while I may not always agree with them, I do think they get the setting better than the current tabletop effort or the video game (which lost a lot of interest as they seem unwilling to accept that interest in the game they want to make is low; and that they are really barely using the license as some of the Gears are so redesigned people were picking out flaws on one pic for days before being told they were nitpicking the wrong chassis). I like the core mechanic of the Alpha, I jsut don't have a lot of faith in a number of the details. Thena gain, I know a lot of my preferences wouldn't fly for everyone, either.
I'm hopeful Jason & Greg (and Brandon) do something interesting with their license (despite a negative comment I made elsewhere in a moment of annoyance) as, while I may not always agree with them, I do think they get the setting better than.....
Thank you for that.
Then again, I know a lot of my preferences wouldn't fly for everyone, either.
Methinks there's a few men here who are better at game creation than myself... but I do want to create a real fan-made ruleset for the miniatures. I have a basis with what I posted in Thunder Run, but I need more finesse with it.
@Balance: Sorry to hear about the projects. Was the management tracking tool supposed to be for website issues or game issues like FAQs/questions/errors?
@Brandon: Eventually I have to try out infinity (and by definition your HGT). Will you be updating the rules for the new version of infinity coming out this summer? I may take the plunge and pick up the book since I know it'll be current for a while. I know that the rules are online but I like having an electricity free copy to look at as well.
The core mechanic behind Blitz/Sil isn't bad. Add some modifiers, roll finite dice, take the best and compare. Means the opponent is involved in most actions, don't need a thousand dice and it is--at its core---pretty quick to do.
Its trimming, streamlining and editing for ease of use that the system needs.
warboss wrote:@Brandon: Eventually I have to try out infinity (and by definition your HGT). Will you be updating the rules for the new version of infinity coming out this summer? I may take the plunge and pick up the book since I know it'll be current for a while. I know that the rules are online but I like having an electricity free copy to look at as well.
This I can do.
I still need to finish a few pieces, like the Bomber, for the current edition.
After looking things over, I'm still curious about how I'll work over the ECM. This appears to be one of the major sticking points, and one that I have a personal interest in because I know ECM is... well, not all that it's played up to be.
RJVF wrote:The core mechanic behind Blitz/Sil isn't bad. Add some modifiers, roll finite dice, take the best and compare. Means the opponent is involved in most actions, don't need a thousand dice and it is--at its core---pretty quick to do.
Its trimming, streamlining and editing for ease of use that the system needs.
True. I've never had a problem with the legacy rules, although as a fan there were several pieces of Perks/Flaws that I have written on in the past concerning minor changes.
Though mostly I just seem to make things more complex for the trouble... -_-'
warboss wrote: @Balance: Sorry to hear about the projects. Was the management tracking tool supposed to be for website issues or game issues like FAQs/questions/errors?
I was pushing it for game development, although I was open to expanding it to other projects as well. Not quite a FAQ tool (suggested that, too, but the preference is for traditional word doc type downloads) but mainly because I feel a valid concern is that there's no real feedback loop with current feedback mechanisms. I don't like that situations occur where things get reported and not fixed because J. Random Developer (Not picking on anyone specific here... And this is not a DP9-specific issue) is receiving feedback by several sources (emails, chats, feedback forms, facebook, forum posts, etc.) so I set up a system similar to those used by software development projects to try to encourage more of a feedback-loop.
My goal was an environment that minimizes errors where a book comes out and someone says, "Wait a minute, that thing on page XX is broken. I reported that months ago." by creating a system where defects are essentially reviewed and answered. Forums work poorly for this from what I've seen, as it's difficult to stay on topic and posts get lost.
As for the dp9 website, if there's specific things that bother you, let me know. I may or may not fix things as I don't have clear approval to do so and I'm unfortunately not in a place where I feel like donating my time. it's hard to get motivated when my frustration level is high and my sense of achievement low.
Balance wrote:
I was pushing it for game development, although I was open to expanding it to other projects as well. Not quite a FAQ tool (suggested that, too, but the preference is for traditional word doc type downloads) but mainly because I feel a valid concern is that there's no real feedback loop with current feedback mechanisms. I don't like that situations occur where things get reported and not fixed because J. Random Developer (Not picking on anyone specific here... And this is not a DP9-specific issue) is receiving feedback by several sources (emails, chats, feedback forms, facebook, forum posts, etc.) so I set up a system similar to those used by software development projects to try to encourage more of a feedback-loop.
My goal was an environment that minimizes errors where a book comes out and someone says, "Wait a minute, that thing on page XX is broken. I reported that months ago." by creating a system where defects are essentially reviewed and answered. Forums work poorly for this from what I've seen, as it's difficult to stay on topic and posts get lost.
As for the dp9 website, if there's specific things that bother you, let me know. I may or may not fix things as I don't have clear approval to do so and I'm unfortunately not in a place where I feel like donating my time. it's hard to get motivated when my frustration level is high and my sense of achievement low.
No issues with the website; I was just curious about the user side application of what you were working on. I definitely understand how you feel and I don't think you're alone in your frustration or lack of excitement currently given the mood on the exHGD(eveloper) support group mailing list.
BrandonKF wrote:
This I can do.
I still need to finish a few pieces, like the Bomber, for the current edition.
After looking things over, I'm still curious about how I'll work over the ECM. This appears to be one of the major sticking points, and one that I have a personal interest in because I know ECM is... well, not all that it's played up to be.
I'd be lying if I claimed to have any clue on the details of it but doesn't Infinity have a hacking mechanic built into the system? It may not operate exactly like with HG but frankly with the switch to a skirmish-only based system, I personally don't think it has to. I think it might be cool if that unassuming iguana over there could reboot the sensors on an approaching Kodiak via a wifi virus. Is there something wrong or vastly inappropriate about the hacking mechanic as applied to HG?
The hacking jobs are mostly to freeze a TAG (their version of a Gear).
If a hacker freezes the TAG, it can't shoot, can't move, can't do much of anything. Rebooting the TAG can only be done by a separate hacker or if the TAG beats with its own Save.
That's if I can recall the rules correctly from memory.
Edit: As for skirmish-level, I was aiming to go for 20-30 models and aiming for high destruction, where even a Hunter can put down a Kodiak. I wanted to make everything more explode-y (something I was always big on, knowing armored warfare), and more pew-pew sounded like the way to go.
Second Edit: Wanted a game with 20-30 models to last less than an hour.
BrandonKF wrote: Though even I haven't heard of TMP. I'm not really huge on the Internet, you know. I just search-fu my way through lots of schtuff.
-Brandon F.
The Miniatures Page. Google should give you an address pretty quickly.
And you should go take a peek. I pretty much ignore the front page, but I poke around the forums (which are rather exhaustive, category-wise) every now and again just to catch the latest chatter about what's going on.
BrandonKF wrote: Though even I haven't heard of TMP. I'm not really huge on the Internet, you know. I just search-fu my way through lots of schtuff.
-Brandon F.
The Miniatures Page. Google should give you an address pretty quickly.
And you should go take a peek. I pretty much ignore the front page, but I poke around the forums (which are rather exhaustive, category-wise) every now and again just to catch the latest chatter about what's going on.
So many sites to join... a man could get lost. I figured Dakka was THE place to go for all things miniature fans related. Now I find there is MORE???
For "news", I go to tabletopgamingnews, theminiaturespage, and bols (all .coms). That should get you a wide variety of news about minis games from all different genres. BOLS is basically 40k focused but they do cover some other popular scifi stuff. TTGN is more general with a slight slant towards CMON projects since they own them as well as kickstarters and new companies. TMP is more old fogey with a 1990's style web layout and a focus on historical games and smaller veteran niche companies moreso than the other two sites. Between the three of them, you shouldn't miss any real news. Dakka usually "breaks" the news faster and has the added benefit of more discussion but if you want to make sure you don't miss anything then going to the three sites above every few days should cover all the important bases.
As for the inifinity hacking, I figured it was more complicated than just freezing tags. I guess you would have to work on that a bit but maybe it'll be diversified in the upcoming 3rd edition.
For a long time that was pretty much all the hackers were intended for. That and they could freeze Heavy Infantry, not just TAGs. Light Infantry was off-limits because they were obfuscated as not having power armor exo-skeletons.
A 12-point hacker freezing your 100-point TAG in place and letting it become mincemeat was the rage-end of some newbie players who relied on the TAG Rambo rush, I hear.
warboss wrote: @Balance: Sorry to hear about the projects. Was the management tracking tool supposed to be for website issues or game issues like FAQs/questions/errors?
I was pushing it for game development, although I was open to expanding it to other projects as well. Not quite a FAQ tool (suggested that, too, but the preference is for traditional word doc type downloads) but mainly because I feel a valid concern is that there's no real feedback loop with current feedback mechanisms. I don't like that situations occur where things get reported and not fixed because J. Random Developer (Not picking on anyone specific here... And this is not a DP9-specific issue) is receiving feedback by several sources (emails, chats, feedback forms, facebook, forum posts, etc.) so I set up a system similar to those used by software development projects to try to encourage more of a feedback-loop.
My goal was an environment that minimizes errors where a book comes out and someone says, "Wait a minute, that thing on page XX is broken. I reported that months ago." by creating a system where defects are essentially reviewed and answered. Forums work poorly for this from what I've seen, as it's difficult to stay on topic and posts get lost.
Lets just say you're not the only one to have tried that. Emphasis on "tried".
Albertorius wrote: For that to get green-lighted, Robert should have been capable of understanding what you were talking about, you know.
Actually, these were Dave, but the lack of enthusiasm has not helped my mood. Both of those efforts were done with me donating the initial up-front time, so I'm pretty much burned out on doing much without permission to bill for my time.
[..] while I may not always agree with them, I do think they get the setting better than the current tabletop effort or the video game [..]
Balance wrote: I don't like that situations occur where things get reported and not fixed because J. Random Developer (Not picking on anyone specific here... And this is not a DP9-specific issue) is receiving feedback by several sources (emails, chats, feedback forms, facebook, forum posts, etc.) so I set up a system similar to those used by software development projects to try to encourage more of a feedback-loop.
My goal was an environment that minimizes errors where a book comes out and someone says, "Wait a minute, that thing on page XX is broken. I reported that months ago." by creating a system where defects are essentially reviewed and answered.
It's a good goal, and worthy of time when it's appreciated, but something I've noticed more over the past few years, and yes, not just with DP9, is that there has to be enough humility in folks creating projects to admit they might have outright goofed or did not set about doing things in the most efficient way.
Unfortunately, such humility seems rare in TPTB folks, quite often encompassing not just a lack of ability to understand, but also a decided unwillingness to even tolerate having something explained to them when they clearly don't understand it.
Which makes even simple questions they might not have thought of on their own just a wee bit difficult to get answered in a satisfactory manner.
If those nice folks even deign to answer in the first place, and not simply ignore the issue completely.
This is never a good circumstance, as the personality type that suffers from this also tends to have the charming trait of absolute blindness towards how they are acting.
There has to be some kind of leader to get things done, but that doesn't equate to needing a foolhardy tyrant incapable of useful collaboration.
On Flickr I have quite a bit of the art pasted in my own new profile.
On Deviantart, my name is thanatosstorm. So at thanatosstorm.deviantart.com I've included all the art there as well.
I use model photographs primarily from everyone I can find. Lots of old blogs from old members, acquaintances, friends, and even those I don't know very well.
Thanks very much for the compliment, I appreciate it.
I'll be continuing to update with new art as I go along.
On Flickr I have quite a bit of the art pasted in my own new profile.
On Deviantart, my name is thanatosstorm. So at thanatosstorm.deviantart.com I've included all the art there as well.
I use model photographs primarily from everyone I can find. Lots of old blogs from old members, acquaintances, friends, and even those I don't know very well.
Thanks very much for the compliment, I appreciate it.
I'll be continuing to update with new art as I go along.
I'm going off to find my waders and see about that boat rental before tomorrow hits.
I already noticed one error on the back cover alone - in the field guides there is no such thing as a generic force.
During army construction players must choose a sub-faction, and that ruling has been in the construction flowchart for every book, including this one.
But still, it was tried initially to make this possible in the last book, except it doesn't work at all well with the field guide format.
And the idea was dropped.
So that must be a purely "Alpha/Beta" oriented addition to justify things planned for the sub-lists, put into a book using a completely different form of force construction.
The words "godawful mess" come to mind when contemplating how that was even slapped onto the previous material given what a headache making it all work over three months ended up being just using the source material alone.....
If someone is interested in Heavy Gear... due to being infatuated with it in Videogame form back in the day, and is looking at playing around in the tabletop version...
...stay the **** away?
Or should I just buy some models and make up my own rules?
A lot of you guys are very passionate about all this. And cutting through the cynicism and grumpy comments, (which are understandable), I'm of the belief that you guys care about the game, and less so about the hands that are currently in control of it.
...I'm sure that's an understatement.
Also someone mentioned Infinity and I have a bad habit of showing up every time that is mentioned. Its like the gaming version of a coke addiction.
I say wait for the "beta" rules to come out this summer and, if they're free or very cheap ($5), try them out. If you like the mechanics, buy some models. The core rules are mostly seemingly nailed down at this point for better or worse but the army lists are still completely up in the air.
I definitely wouldn't buy any models now given that you don't know what variants will be legal and/or worthwhile in game or even what factions will be given a special "touch" in terms of power/variety over the others and there is no point in wasting your money in the meantime. Obviously that holds even more true for the books which will be even more useless unless you're playing the older blitz rules. Depending on what they plan to charge for the beta rules (if anything... don't know personally), I wouldn't even recommend buying them if they cost more than $5. You'd basically be paying DP9 for the honor of testing their rules for one year at which point your purchase would be worthless (normally with dp9, you get two whole years of value out of a rulebook before they abandon it). In all honestly, just wait for the final version to shake out in 2015. The rpg though might be worth checking out in the meantime but I don't follow that side of Heavy Gear much.
I have the PDF of the Blitz rulebook that I had printed out (when I worked at a place with a color laser printer), that is in a binder upstairs somewhere.
Thanks for the heads up though.
I don't really see this as being a game I'd be playing in a game store with people, but more something to maybe do with friends. Or another painting project for the time being. I've always like the way they looked, but never got involved.
I was actually thinking about digging into the rules and seeing if I could hammer out some sort of RP Campaign using the fluff and the base rules... likely with some modifications.
Chemical Cutthroat wrote: Sooooo...
If someone is interested in Heavy Gear... due to being infatuated with it in Videogame form back in the day, and is looking at playing around in the tabletop version...
...stay the **** away?
Or should I just buy some models and make up my own rules?
A lot of you guys are very passionate about all this. And cutting through the cynicism and grumpy comments, (which are understandable), I'm of the belief that you guys care about the game, and less so about the hands that are currently in control of it.
...I'm sure that's an understatement.
Well, an understatement it might be, but at least it's an accurate one.
I did get into HG through the HG2 video game, so... yeah.
Chemical Cutthroat wrote: I was actually thinking about digging into the rules and seeing if I could hammer out some sort of RP Campaign using the fluff and the base rules... likely with some modifications.
This is pretty much what the folks at the top have left for anyone who isn't willing to support their inane practices. There are a lot of things in the game and setting worth taking away, but unfortunately those things are also what the folks at the Pod are always trying to remove for the sake of whatever it is they hold as a "vision." Or at least their vision of the current moment.
I guess really what you might get out of the game depends on what you want from it; If you're into mecha-based play this is where they continue to take things, so that is the somewhat easier path to tread.
If you want a more down to earth setting, you'll have to be willing to put in a whole lot of work to make things consistent. Because between the former line editor, previous developers, current assistant game developer, current primary designer, and el presidente, virtually no one has been willing to approach company projects with either objectivity or an eye to coherency. Basically, every book and other company publication for the past 4+ years has been an all but total "one-off" in terms of unbalanced combat groups, variant naming, useless models, overpowered models, and often contrary model equipment that was all intended to fix a previous version of the game that was itself problematic due to those very same company decisions.
Each of the people I listed above who have a hand in things thinks nothing of inserting some sort of "easter egg" or "rule of cool / $$$ grab" idea without stopping to think that at each point in a project the rest of them are all doing the exact same thing. This is how the player-base continues to get products the company considers finished that turn out in practice to be unplayable messes requiring either multiple erratas, revamped versions, or both - which is usually not forthcoming, or else executed so as to cause even more problems rather than actually fix anything.
Calling any of them out on any of these practices is considered to be indicative of a "poor attitude." Standing up to any of them to stick to your point is simply not allowed, even when they are obviously shown to be in the wrong.
They want to sell miniatures, but only apparently want a small handful of folks to buy overpriced showpiece models based on how they go about that process, rather than trying to generate a stream of steady orders from a larger community. They also essentially do not care about supporting anything once you have purchased it, and have shown a marked tendency towards eliminating rules, models, and equipment loadouts almost at random when the mood strikes them.
To say things are often delayed by their choice of process, well, understatement doesn't even begin to cover it. One telling sign of late is that the company president has continued to post updates or previews on Facebook rather than on his own forums, where he has also been known to remove anything posted he does not want to see.
In the current rules revamp, the person in charge, Dave, has been unable to get the names right for models or variants that have existed for almost the entire span of years Heavy Gear has existed. Even when this has been pointed out to him he has refused to make the change from what he came up with - and, if you were a tester on some company project, pointing out something that might be changed for increased coherency was likewise equally ignored. Yet changes are apparently alright, but only so long as they come up with it, and whether or not it makes sense with any previous material they created is irrelevant.
Case in point, the Peacemaker Razorback - one of the most iconic Heavy Gear designs. Only it would seem "Peacemaker" is not acceptable for that equipment swap on other models compared to the apparently "cooler" moniker of "Chaingun."
Or, for Southern models which are named after snakes, and their variants as some play on snakes, "Striking" has denoted a recoilless cannon swap for almost as long. But apparently again this was not cool enough or understandable enough, so Dave changed it to be "Striker."
These kind of people are in charge, with no one able to put any brakes on them, and they think nothing of demanding that you respect both their person and their decisions no matter how incompetent they continually prove themselves to be. Plus on top of that, more than a few forum-goers expect you to behave in that manner as well towards those same folks, or else walk away from "their" game entirely.
So the DP9 Forums are under Martial Law that squashes any dissent, so the passionate folks that don't want the game to fail, or disagree with the design choices.
Viva la resistance?
But! I mean, you guys love the setting, otherwise you wouldn't be here. Reading through (I couldn't read everything, ya'll are rather verbose and I'd be here for weeks), but BrandonKF is sorta doin' his own rule writeup? How's that going?
And for those of you who have armies and play, what do you do? I'd rather skirt the developer drama if at all possible, as I'm a fan of the games I used to play, not whatever ruleset or stuff is currently flopping around. Landships and squads of Gears slugging it out in the wastes was always awesome. Still is.
Chemical Cutthroat wrote: So the DP9 Forums are under Martial Law that squashes any dissent, so the passionate folks that don't want the game to fail, or disagree with the design choices.
I believe Smilodon is referring to the whole process of working for/with the pod as a developer/playtester/whatever. I've never had an issue with the way the forums are run personally and I'm not just saying that because Balance posts here. His moderation is quite moderate (pun intended). The only thing I've seen on the forums is the occasional inconvienent post disappear in an official announcement thread but I suspect that is more the compant owner's decision rather than a moderator one.
Well no worries either way. I'm a Dakka guy, this is where I lurk. I've just been going through the Blitz rules and trying to make sense of them and all, but I doubt I'll go wander over there. I'm workblocked on that site anyway.
There is a... LOT... of stuff that I just don't remember at all. Though I don't remember much from the game besides North and South sluggin' it out.
Regarding the forums, the owner can, has, and will delete embarrassing posts within literally 30 seconds when notified by emails. Somehow it he spontaneously become capable of using email in that case.
I also resent accusations of verbosity. I would like to think that I am beyond mere verbosity.
HudsonD wrote: It's online. As expected the news was posted on Facebook, but not on the actual DP9 forums.
Let's see how bad it is...
Thanks for the update. I don't facespace or mybook and I wasn't due for a visit to the forums for a while (but apparently wouldn't have missed the news there yesterday). I'll have to check it out later today when I'm on my own WIFI as I don't want to log into paypal on a public system. Feel free to post interesting tidbits here. I imagine Smilodon will do the same thing after his cooling rods contain the reaction.
edit: From the free preview table of contents on DTRPG, it looks like we get a Scimitar Gear Strider but that is unfortunately expected. Just an FYI, that was added AFTER playtesting ended so Robert is likely the only one who worked on it with the occasional "yes sir" from the chief playtester (but likely no actual games). Some of the gears appear to be missing 1st/2nd edition RPG sketches as they're using black and white versions of minis pics instead. Also, the only model I was excited about getting (a real strider! no gear about it!) didn't make it in and instead got replaced by a gear-strider. The strider even had cool looking art. :( There is also an announcement now on DP9forum as well.
Overall, I haven't seen anything in Lion's Wrath that makes me depressed yet, but I'm only about halfway through.
The art has some 'gear grinder' moments for me: I really don't like the mix of art styles, at least when they're in the same 'context'. As warboss said, the random vehicle catalog entries that use photos converted to B&W. Also, some other places (like the Infantry diagrams) where there's an APC in a radically different line-weight.
I also prefer the older infantry, even if the minis are a bit rougher. They feel more realistic to me, especially for a setting where the answer to armoring infantry is to put them in large one-man vehicles.
Of the new stuff, I like the Leopard. Not sure about the Lion, since it's "Classified" I.E. Art Not Ready, I assume. I prefer the Lynx over the 'Pilum' no-art power armor the P.R.D.F. book got. I know it's a little bit of a weird note for the setting, but I'm wiling to be open to it. In my personal head-canon it's really something that should be akin to an ATV, but probably has a shorter deployment range and very limited vehicle-scale weapons. That's just me, though.
Metal Cat just seems like a 'mass production cheetah' and another claim to the Jaguar's palce as the eventual mainline trooper.
The Scimitar is something I know was expected (in some form). Hard to judge by a silhouette, but at least it has massive feet as a bone to the weight of such a design. I like that it looks to have big Kodiak-esque V-engine pods.
To be honest, my suggestion for a Northern "Big model" was to do something in the Mammoth/Mastodon family, with the idea that it's one of those up-scaled and given a new role. Make a cool design that sues those design cues (high-shouldered, helicopter-style cockpit, etc) instead of annother humanoid gearstrider.
The mammoth getting wheels is annoying, but I'll live. I feel like it's changing canon to suit a mechanics issue.
I like that the Camel is in the list.
I'll have to take a look at the League-specif rules in a bit.
Balance wrote: Overall, I haven't seen anything in Lion's Wrath that makes me depressed yet, but I'm only about halfway through.
The art has some 'gear grinder' moments for me: I really don't like the mix of art styles, at least when they're in the same 'context'. As warboss said, the random vehicle catalog entries that use photos converted to B&W. Also, some other places (like the Infantry diagrams) where there's an APC in a radically different line-weight.
The model pic B&W art bugs me a bit which is why I mentioned it but the addition of non-northern art bugs me more. I only have access to the free preview at the moment but why the hell is there paxton infantry pics in the NORTHERN book? Smilodon worked very hard in figuring out what models can go where to try and make sure players had multiple avenues to use each model (at least when allowed by the faction specific restrictions dictated from on high) so it shouldn't see as much of an issue with collections being completely invalidated like with FIF.
Of the new stuff, I like the Leopard. Not sure about the Lion, since it's "Classified" I.E. Art Not Ready, I assume. I prefer the Lynx over the 'Pilum' no-art power armor the P.R.D.F. book got. I know it's a little bit of a weird note for the setting, but I'm wiling to be open to it. In my personal head-canon it's really something that should be akin to an ATV, but probably has a shorter deployment range and very limited vehicle-scale weapons. That's just me, though.
We didn't see any art for the Lion so I can't comment on that.
Metal Cat just seems like a 'mass production cheetah' and another claim to the Jaguar's palce as the eventual mainline trooper.
The Scimitar is something I know was expected (in some form). Hard to judge by a silhouette, but at least it has massive feet as a bone to the weight of such a design. I like that it looks to have big Kodiak-esque V-engine pods.
The metal cat is supposed to be a mechanical fix for how difficult it is to hit a +2 def gear as it's primary purpose. It's supposed to use the same model as the stock cheetah so as not to disenfranchise northern players from their existing models as the standard cheetah (at least in the playtest documents) got less available overall. As for the scimitar, it's entirely new post-playtesting and robert's baby so I can't comment on that. From the name, I'd expect it to be in the Paxton book as it doesn't follow northern mammalian nomenclature. I don't see the scimitar outline in the preview document but judging from the Lion I wouldn't expect too much detail from it. The lion uses the outline of a grizzly from what I can tell so I'd expect the Scimitar to borrow the kodiak's.
To be honest, my suggestion for a Northern "Big model" was to do something in the Mammoth/Mastodon family, with the idea that it's one of those up-scaled and given a new role. Make a cool design that sues those design cues (high-shouldered, helicopter-style cockpit, etc) instead of annother humanoid gearstrider.
The mammoth getting wheels is annoying, but I'll live. I feel like it's changing canon to suit a mechanics issue.
The "big" model was actually supposed to be a lighter, faster strider (plus a transport strider!) ala the naga since the "big and fat" roles were already handled by the duo of existing northern striders. It's hard to see on the preview table of contents on my phone but they both appear to be gone sadly. As for the Mammoth, I agree. I strongly advocated making the SMS an optional upgrade variant but it was decided instead to retcon it into every version (at least in the playtest). The ridiculous initial stats had a baseline speed boost PLUS the SMS and made the mammoth stupidly faster than EVERY fire support gear the north has. I believe smilodon coined the term "Rally Mammoth" for that.
I'll have to take a look at the League-specif rules in a bit.
There is one VERY easy to miss but key and incredibly bad/unfriendly to players mechanic that I hated in that part that I'm curious if it made it to the final version. It took me a while to spot it in the playtest as I read it just like previous versions of the mechanic but it had a very significant FU component that I'm curious if people will pick up on.
From the DTRPG description: "Choose one of the Confederated Northern City States (CNCS) five army options from the Northern Guard (NG), Northern Lights Confederacy Armed Forces (NAF), United Mercantile Federation Army (UMFA), Western Frontier Protectorate Army (WFPA), Northern Territorial Reserves (NTR), or make a Generic Northern Army."
That geneic army bit is new and something I complained about unsuccessfully during the playtest. The shuffling of models/variants to "faction only" status combined with the screw you rule I hinted above was made worse by a rule forcing you to choose a particular subfaction.
Well, that's just upsetting (yet predictable) that Lion's Wrath seems to be so haphazard.
I suppose it's to be expected, with the emphasis on trying to produce workable future rules. But god, there's so many issues with the 'alpha'. Overly complex electronic warfare for one, and that insane resistance to naming weapons in a reasonable manner.
I mean, there's arguments that weapons on a statcard should read 'Paxton Arms 20mm M6 Autocannon (LAC)' instead of just fething 'AC:7'.
warboss wrote: I imagine Smilodon will do the same thing after his cooling rods contain the reaction. edit: From the free preview table of contents on DTRPG
Actually, my first response to reading the table of contents on that DTRPG preview was to laugh myself silly for about ~five minutes or so.
Because, after getting told by Saleem that I had insulted Robert by telling him he was wrong, and why he was wrong, about many of his mandated decisions made without consultation I see that most all of the silly put into the book by Saleem that he wouldn't let anyone touch got removed by Robert anyways.
Apparently I earned a free copy, and I was going to give it away as I don't need it, but either to due to vindictiveness, or more likely incompetence, on the part of the generalissimo the Pod didn't issues codes this time and instead tied it to specific emails "to see how it all turned out."
Wonder how long it'll be before the Pod überfans drop in to try and rebut the first 1 out of 5 star (no, was not done by me) review, which is more than a little accurate.
Oh well, maybe I'll download it for laughs.
Or not.
When told it was a privilege to have my name appear in an industry product and thus I should mend my attitude I asked for my name to be completely removed... which I notice they managed to get wrong too.
As well as misspelling it in the tester credits to boot.
Killionaire wrote: But god, there's so many issues with the 'alpha'. Overly complex electronic warfare for one, and that insane resistance to naming weapons in a reasonable manner.
I mean, there's arguments that weapons on a statcard should read 'Paxton Arms 20mm M6 Autocannon (LAC)' instead of just fething 'AC:7'.
Yeah, that one even took me aback.
As well as the suggestion that people should once again repaint bits or rip apart completed miniatures because the people in charge can't get things into any semblance of coherency, after refusing to let anyone help with that who would've done a much better job of catching those kinds of little things.
After the Pod has called so many times during the process for the field guides that things simply cannot be done to certain miniatures because of what the box / blister contains, or citing dubious "production" issues, what they are doing now to make these model loadouts and force lists is utter BS.
Yeah, I really dislike how the weapon 'table' is ending up. I'm totally okay with ditching the VL/L/M/H/VH monikers. Sure you end up with standardized range bands that way, but the majority of them all had the same ranges anyway. But doing the weird half-assed measure, with some things being a LAC, somethings being a LAC5 is just extra cruft. Just go AC5, AC7 or whatever. I can't recall if he also has some with shortened range bands either, I'd have to double check infantry agms ranges. (Though I always hated that conceit, seems like such a gamey 'fix' for agm infantry being too powerful)
I do agree that Dave seems like a terrible choice for making the lists. I'm lukewarm on him for rules, but for actually making the lists, his lack of familiarity with Heavy Gear tends to really creep in. Forgotten models, renaming variants, adding weapons options to factions that don't normally get them, declaring entire swathes of southern models "Counts As" (Or as I like to think of it, "I can't be arsed to make a statline for all those models") I never felt like he really grokked the factions and what made them unique. Of course that last Peace River booked cacked things up anyway, with it's showering of gifts and oddball unique rules.
Which of the books has information about the Silverscale? The model looks cool but it doesn't exist in the main book. I figure it's a scout/ECM thing, but at the moment I don't even know what it does.
HudsonD wrote: There have been more posts in this thread about the new ebook, than on the actual DP9 boards...
Folks probably realized that why should they bother over there, as TPTB will just delete anything remotely critical about how he went about things.
To probably include even questions about what is a typo and what isn't in the book, because wow, this a total Charlie Foxtrot in execution.
I did deign to download it - and the first big thing is that Saleem and then Robert completely changed how the datacards were set up to work, I guess maybe to save space in an electronic format, but didn't change how the option line swaps were worded in the combat groups to reflect doing that.... as well as quite often reordering the options out of what little order they had to begin with...
It might be kind of hard to fit in a Jaguar Wildfire here and there when it's now only found on the Fire Jaguar, or ditto for a Hunter Wildfire that is now found only on the Assault Hunter. Which I notice got missed on pretty much every datacard for their special [AE 2] trait MPZ as well.
The "Scimitar" got a TV rebate of around 20-40 points, depending on what did actually get removed or what ended up being a typo here.
But I notice they kept the (3x) laser version as well as (R)eloads for an energy weapon, and added a weapon that doesn't exist instead of just using the HVS.
Mammoth TV got totally mucked up, in that they gained things again but lost cost.
As did some Thunderhammers, as per usual it's impossible to tell what is intentional or an error.
But by the Prophet, they left in the Behemoth "$$$ grab" model.
Chemical Cutthroat wrote: At the risk of being that guy.
Which of the books has information about the Silverscale? The model looks cool but it doesn't exist in the main book. I figure it's a scout/ECM thing, but at the moment I don't even know what it does.
Your best bet is to try and get a copy of Southern Vehicles Compendium 1: Gears & Striders. IIRC the only other place is a few similar blurbs on one page of Forged in Fire.
HudsonD wrote: There have been more posts in this thread about the new ebook, than on the actual DP9 boards...
To be honest since it was promised to come out the end of this month I hadn't been expecting to need to check on it until the June-July time frame.
I've just skimmed it and I dunno, no real initial impressions of note. I wish the "Metal Cat" had a bit more of an imaginative name given how it seems to show up everywhere.
Which of the books has information about the Silverscale? The model looks cool but it doesn't exist in the main book. I figure it's a scout/ECM thing, but at the moment I don't even know what it does.
Of the current crop, you'd be needing the FiF book, as it is a southern design (a variant of the Basilisk)
MrThud wrote: I wish the "Metal Cat" had a bit more of an imaginative name given how it seems to show up everywhere.
With a very few very rare exceptions, pretty much all of the time whatever the test folks get handed from the devs & Pod for each project is what the names are going to be unless they themselves end up changing them at some point.
For whatever it's worth, there is a link to some player's reference guides in my DP9 sig, that is pretty shot to s**t in parts by what TPTB chose to do rather than stick with what got handed in, but still enough to at least see what the swaps were supposed to do and what equipment the models were supposed to have.
Weasel Mk 2 should not have a [Sat Uplink] along with (10) Detect & [ECM/ECCM 4], but oh well, just another typo right?
I see they also kept the Caprice knock-off Strider infantry transport, only the weapons are now even more grossly overpowered by using the standard Thunderhammer loadout - and where exactly does everyone sit?
Including those phantom specialist teams the infantry attachment can't even take in the first place.
And why does the *AAC variant have a completely different name from every other variant with that loadout in the entire book?
Not to mention the attached infantry was already allowed to buy upgrades from the platoon option page, except this was apparently too complex, so now there is also an option line allowing the exact same thing.
Apparently as part of the same process, in places too numerous to mention single lines and similar wordings intended to clarify or further define special rules have been removed for the sake of formatting.
Yet, the Pod does not at all like to answer questions about rules once they have published any product....
I see they also kept the Caprice knock-off Strider infantry transport, only the weapons are now even more grossly overpowered by using the standard Thunderhammer loadout - and where exactly does everyone sit?
So that's is what happened to the special transport? And the wolf strider became the scimitar gear strider?
Apparently I earned a free copy, and I was going to give it away as I don't need it, but either to due to vindictiveness, or more likely incompetence, on the part of the generalissimo the Pod didn't issues codes this time and instead tied it to specific emails "to see how it all turned out." _
I guess I didn't earn one...
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Smilodon_UP wrote: I already noticed one error on the back cover alone - in the field guides there is no such thing as a generic force. During army construction players must choose a sub-faction, and that ruling has been in the construction flowchart for every book, including this one. But still, it was tried initially to make this possible in the last book, except it doesn't work at all well with the field guide format. And the idea was dropped. _
I'm actually ok with the generic list part since I'm not a fan of "locking" models behind a subfaction paywall, especially with the ridiculous double vet slot tax on EVERY fire support and some strike/recon/ranger squads that was submitted. It is a bit of a moot point now seeing as I had initially hoped the generic list would get players around the horrible double vet slot tax mechanic on generic units. I'm really glad that mechanic apparently got dropped according to a little birdie who I asked who bought the pdf. The loathsome mechanic I was referring to earlier in this thread was a FIF SRA style "double vet slot required" tax that was on GENERIC units instead of the faction specific ones. If you wanted to use your generic FS/Strike/Ranger/Whatever squad and it had a faction specific replacement, you had to pay two vet slots for each unit to unlock one generic one fully to veteran status... unless you bought one of the faction specific ones filled with models that nobody wants like bears, tigers, etc. That has apparently been toned down to just requiring generic ones to be veteran which, while I don't specifically like it, is at least reasonable. I'm glad the pod saw the light of day on that one; I would have thought that my multiple messages about how every single starter set they've ever sold for the north would be "taxed" an extra vet slot or more (depending on which sublist and which starter) would have convinced them back in January but I guess it took a while to sink in. In the end, I'm glad for the change.
As for the it's/its discussion on the official forum, I submitted about a dozen examples of that particular systematic mistake as well as advised them to search and replace the entire document for it but I guess that was forgotten about during the intervening 5 months.
I see they also kept the Caprice knock-off Strider infantry transport, only the weapons are now even more grossly overpowered by using the standard Thunderhammer loadout -
So that's is what happened to the special transport? And the wolf strider became the scimitar gear strider?
It would seem that Saleem wouldn't let it be given up, but the Wolf, as a counter to the Naga, is completely gone, yet still mentioned in a few places as well as the Light Strider squadron it used to form.
Which completely gutted the Ashington Royal's exclusive UMFA Strider squad, even though the name was kept while simply inserting the Gear-Strider in place of the Mammoth and Wolf.
The GS squadron is now [Core] in Armor regiments, rather than how the Light Strider had been [Spec], so I guess no one ever told them at what PL people actually play HGB! most of the time.
I can't even begin to imagine how TPTB went from trying to name it the Lion to calling it Scimitar.
Apparently I earned a free copy, and I was going to give it away as I don't need it, but either to due to vindictiveness, or more likely incompetence, on the part of the generalissimo the Pod didn't issues codes this time and instead tied it to specific emails "to see how it all turned out."
I guess I didn't earn one...
hrm, I guess it was intended then to rub my nose in the final product.
Too bad the execution is rather, er, subpar, which quite takes away from whatever it is was intended to prove?
warboss wrote: As for the it's/its discussion on the official forum, I submitted about a dozen examples of that particular systematic mistake as well as advised them to search and replace the entire document for it but I guess that was forgotten about during the intervening 5 months.
Yeah, there is no way this ever got even a once-over check.
The Airborne Dragoon combat group is totally screwed up, plus managing to copy + paste the WFPA swaps from Hunter Para models to Dingo models for the AB squadrons without noticing how that affected the AB Dragoon CG type.
I don't think it was intended. For a playtester, I didn't actually "play" much so I'm not too surprised that I didn't get a free copy especially since I joined the group specifically to try to prevent players getting screwed over again. I tried my best to find mistakes, broken combos, stupid ideas that lowered player collection utility, and lastly typos like the its/it's situation in the final version you handed in. I only got a single playtest game in and didn't turn in the 8 page report about it so I'm not surprised I didn't warrant a freebie (despite being one of the most active members on the mailing list after joining). That doesn't endear me to those in charge. In any case, I don't think you got it to rub your nose in it but rather you probably were just on a list of those important enough to warrant it and you never got taken off. That is obviously a guess though so YMMV.
Or not. When told it was a privilege to have my name appear in an industry product and thus I should mend my attitude I asked for my name to be completely removed... which I notice they managed to get wrong too. As well as misspelling it in the tester credits to boot.
Wait... They put your name on a product without your consent, and specifically after you asked not to be credited ? If I was in your place, screaming would be occurring right now. Lots of it, in fact, until the PDF is updated.
Might be my engineering training, but you do not attribute work to someone if they are not willing to sign on it.
If anyone looks and desires to have their models credited, I'm more than willing to do so.
I also try to make sure I don't 'claim' copyright. Instead everything on Flickr is posted under Attribution NonCommercial. I've also taken a point of notifying folks on DeviantArt when I use their stuff.
Chemical Cutthroat wrote:So the DP9 Forums are under Martial Law that squashes any dissent, so the passionate folks that don't want the game to fail, or disagree with the design choices.
Viva la resistance?
But! I mean, you guys love the setting, otherwise you wouldn't be here. Reading through (I couldn't read everything, ya'll are rather verbose and I'd be here for weeks), but BrandonKF is sorta doin' his own rule writeup? How's that going?
And for those of you who have armies and play, what do you do? I'd rather skirt the developer drama if at all possible, as I'm a fan of the games I used to play, not whatever ruleset or stuff is currently flopping around. Landships and squads of Gears slugging it out in the wastes was always awesome. Still is.
warboss has his own write-up that's rather complete on his Mecha Blog. Mine isn't complete, and it's a hash-up. Infinity with Heavy Gear.
Chemical Cutthroat wrote: As someone rather intimate with Infinity, I find that appealing. But I'll make sure to look at what warboss has written up as well!
The gears a turning in my head now, (ugh pun), and I have all sorts of crazy plans. We'll see what the gaming group thinks this weekend.
Lots of puns with Heavy Gear.
I'm still waiting to do a meme with the words "Gears of War, Eat Your Hearts Out".
Killionaire wrote: I mean, there's arguments that weapons on a statcard should read 'Paxton Arms 20mm M6 Autocannon (LAC)' instead of just fething 'AC:7'.
I hope no one's pushing for a Paxton Arms LAC on Northern gears.
That one is probably at least partially my fault. I tried to make EW more of a 'first-class citizen' and the initial drafts of the rules were fairly rough. I wanted to work on them more, but never was able to polish them down. However, that's assuming they haven't changed significantly since my incarnation of rules - I've not checked the Alpha in some time so I don't know how much divergence there is.
Killionaire wrote: I mean, there's arguments that weapons on a statcard should read 'Paxton Arms 20mm M6 Autocannon (LAC)' instead of just fething 'AC:7'.
What a waste. That's what it started as! Why can't they just do the simple thing and be done with it. feth.
IceRaptor wrote: What a waste. That's what it started as! Why can't they just do the simple thing and be done with it. feth.
A large part of that though is probably because they only accept a certain kind of player into their valued player-base, to inform their "decisions" and direct where they focus their efforts, if at all.
But enthusiasm can only carry things so far without having a plan to get there, nor without the willingness to hear opinions contrary to what they hold.
And this isn't mean-spirited, but rather just an additional observation; AL13N also has reason to be happy, because all but nothing for his own faction got touched from what he signed off on as a tester.
Or, to be more accurate, it wasn't touched this time.
I say wait for the "beta" rules to come out this summer and, if they're free or very cheap ($5), try them out. If you like the mechanics, buy some models. The core rules are mostly seemingly nailed down at this point for better or worse but the army lists are still completely up in the air.
Depending on what they plan to charge for the beta rules (if anything... don't know personally), I wouldn't even recommend buying them if they cost more than $5. You'd basically be paying DP9 for the honor of testing their rules for one year at which point your purchase would be worthless (normally with dp9, you get two whole years of value out of a rulebook before they abandon it). In all honestly, just wait for the final version to shake out in 2015.
Dream Pod 9, Inc. wrote:We are working on a new edition of the game, which is in Alpha playtesting right now, we plan on releasing a small b&w printed book for $15 at this summer's Gen Con and it also be available as a free pdf download. That way players can start using the new rules and help us with playtesting. The final rulebook is planned for the summer of 2015, that way it will have about 8 months of additional beta testing before it has to go into final layout. We want to make sure we getting everything right before we release the final edition.
May 19 at 3:21pm
Killionaire wrote: I mean, there's arguments that weapons on a statcard should read 'Paxton Arms 20mm M6 Autocannon (LAC)' instead of just fething 'AC:7'.
I hope no one's pushing for a Paxton Arms LAC on Northern gears.
Or Southern gears, for that matter.
Polar armies have been using Paxton weaponry for centuries, now. It is a weapons manufacturer, after all. It would be like not wanting to issue MP5s to a SWAT unit because they're german.
The northern pdf has some nice as well as bad surprises compared with what I had seen previously from my late night looksie. The removal of the double vet tax on stock units is a big improvement (requiring them to be veteran isn't ideal but is acceptable) but it is balanced negatively for me by the removal of the only two models I was looking forward to (namely the two now missing striders). Replacing one of the models with a gear strider just rubs salt in that minor wound given my distate for the class of vehicles in general but I can't say I'm surprised they went with it given recent history. It's a bit bittersweet but also ironic that I bookended the silhouette era as a playtester both on the original supplement (1st edition RPG jungle drums) and the final one (Lion's Wrath).
Also, a second review of the PDF went up on DTRPG. I'm actually impressed given the reviewer that he only gave it 4 stars. I'd disagree personally about the difference in power between LW and FIF (or even TPS) though as I consider them to be roughly equal. Blood Debt is the only overpowered outlier to the point that if I ever face a paxton player I'd ask him to spot me an extra 10% TV to cover the special abilities that he doesn't pay anything for. I would also point out that the north (or at least the UMFA) actually PAYS for army wide special abilities.
Any comments on how new rules are turning out? Would it be better to use a 'Heavy Infinity' type as I haven't managed to play a game of Heavy Gear yet with the current/old/ihavenoidea rules and I'm semi-familiar with the Infinity ones?
(I have a reasonable number of northern and southern mechs and units, but never played a game with them).
Daba wrote: Any comments on how new rules are turning out? Would it be better to use a 'Heavy Infinity' type as I haven't managed to play a game of Heavy Gear yet with the current/old/ihavenoidea rules and I'm semi-familiar with the Infinity ones?
Brandon and Warboss' take on Infinity Gear - are pretty nice. You'll get a more Infinity feel from them, if that's what you're looking for. The Silhouette rules have a beauty of their own, but expect to have a learning curve as you start figuring out how to make the different pieces work well together. Either way, hope you have fun!
Daba wrote: Any comments on how new rules are turning out? Would it be better to use a 'Heavy Infinity' type as I haven't managed to play a game of Heavy Gear yet with the current/old/ihavenoidea rules and I'm semi-familiar with the Infinity ones?
(I have a reasonable number of northern and southern mechs and units, but never played a game with them).
I sat down with all my rulebooks last night, and along with some browsing of BrandonKF's rules, started working on some ideas of my own.
But my goal isn't to try and replace the rules, I'm just adapting the setting to a rulesystem that I'm more experienced with. For lethality and whatnot. Certainly not for balance reasons! That truly must be the most frustrating thing about game design, trying to give cool abilities/units while maintaining balance. Right now I'm just working on the weapon charts and adjusting the statlines to something different, and then crossing them over so they still have any special rules represented properly (or almost properly). Damnit Excel!
I could post links to stuff once I have it more concrete if anyone is interested. I might bug this thread's massive depth of knowledge at times if that's alright.
BrandonKF wrote: Paxton sells to everybody. Easy to describe written-off chassis getting PA weapons for themselves. Cheaper, more durable, and easy to find ammunition.
The Polar nations should have plenty of incentive to support their own arms industries. For instance, going to war with Peace River (always a possibility) could easily cut into the availability of LACs if they were using Paxton Arms models. Plus, the simpler Paxton Arms stuff - a LAC, for instance - is, according to the fluff, just knock-offs of equipment designed and produced by the Polar Nations.
NorthCo, Shaian, Keimuri, and Riley, should all be selling LACs by the bucketload to the Northern nations. And their Southern counterparts should be doing the same for the Southern nations.
The point is, the fluff doesn't matter when you're in game. You can go and say 'Oh see the gun my model has? It's banana magazine means it's a Paxton Killmaster 5000.
But I don't want to see that on datacards when trying to play a streamlined game! I want to go and see, 'Oh, it's an AC7'. Which means it's got the AC range bands, and damage 7. DONE. SIMPLE.
So much of the game needs to have that level of streamlining done to it.
Likewise, last I checked, a lot of the game still needs very basic passes to show how off the math can be. People are still arguing for +1d6 defense for every scrap of terrain in the way between the firer and the target... in other words, ranged combat simply won't work on boards with any decent amount of terrain. Zany.
warboss wrote: Also, a second review of the PDF went up on DTRPG. I'm actually impressed given the reviewer that he only gave it 4 stars. I'd disagree personally about the difference in power between LW and FIF (or even TPS) though as I consider them to be roughly equal. Blood Debt is the only overpowered outlier to the point that if I ever face a paxton player I'd ask him to spot me an extra 10% TV to cover the special abilities that he doesn't pay anything for. I would also point out that the north (or at least the UMFA) actually PAYS for army wide special abilities.
Smilodon_UP wrote: And this isn't mean-spirited, but rather just an additional observation; AL13N also has reason to be happy, because all but nothing for his own faction got touched from what he signed off on as a tester.
It's basically another instance of folks playing the game in an almost completely different meta (see first link in my quoted sentence) using most of the same rules, but then basing their recommendations on that small sampling of a game where it's obvious the older, less optimal models are going to get slaughtered when facing a bunch of [+everything] models on that table setup, which is typical for that group's locale.
And then being unable to see past that for anything else, along with an unwillingness to be persuaded some inclusion actually does balance something else in-game.
But as I think IceRaptor said, a flat [+mod number] is almost always better in Silhouette over most everything else, including skill.
Which Dave has now turned into needing to figure out how many dice to roll, which is probably too often more than you can hold in your hand, for almost every attack, defense, or other in-game check.
In principle I can see the benefits of such a change, but the amount of dice, equating to the amount of some kind of mods......
He has "blitzed" the revamp ruleset into taking just as long, with just as much if not more complexity.
I got to vent a bit yesterday and over the past couple weeks, which I guess is good. My actual responsibilities to the Pod, game, canon setting, and players is done.
Anything further I might create relating to Heavy Gear or another setting is entirely for myself, which I may or may not share.
Mostly because I'm tired of my competence and knowledge immediately being questioned by the vast majority of folks either online or IRL in lieu of having an actual discussion.
Especially with the type of folks who only want to be right and can't see it.
I might watch mecha on occasion, but I don't care to game it, at all. But that is what most everyone is into anymore in some form or another, which doesn't leave a lot of room for any other views.
Likewise, last I checked, a lot of the game still needs very basic passes to show how off the math can be. People are still arguing for +1d6 defense for every scrap of terrain in the way between the firer and the target... in other words, ranged combat simply won't work on boards with any decent amount of terrain. Zany.
... We are talking about DP9. Math is irrelevant, wrong and evil. So is taking into account differences between table layouts, trying to figure out what kind of terrain is needed, and writing clear guidelines so that players know how they should setup their tables, for that matter.
Poor Alien, I admire his enthusiasm, but yeah, that group was troubling as they would push agendas that were clearly bad ideas, and get more attention because of their enthusiasm.
The Alpha is a shame, as I recall Ice originally capped the dice mods fairly low, which would've helped speed things up, as once you hit X dice, just roll.
Most Mecha shows today, I can't really get into. They've repeatedly tried to top each other in spectacle to the point where they end up more like super hero robots and cease to have any grounding in reality. Some of the best instances of mechs tend to be shows where the mechs aren't the focus of the show, they're just there, like Ghost in the Shell's tv series.
And yeah, math and process has always been the pods problem.
Most Mecha shows today, I can't really get into. They've repeatedly tried to top each other in spectacle to the point where they end up more like super hero robots and cease to have any grounding in reality. Some of the best instances of mechs tend to be shows where the mechs aren't the focus of the show, they're just there, like Ghost in the Shell's tv series.
And yeah, math and process has always been the pods problem.
Yeah, Ghost in the Shell had enjoyable (if sometimes annoyingly voiced) mecha. Though I think Gundam MS08th Team is my favorite for gritty, land based mecha action. Over the top seems to be the name of the game now-a-days.
ferrous wrote: Poor Alien, I admire his enthusiasm, but yeah, that group was troubling as they would push agendas that were clearly bad ideas, and get more attention because of their enthusiasm.
Yes, that did get awful annoying during testing and outside of testing, considering how often they didn't provide anything beyond "that sucks for my army."
Yet when one of those guys asks a question it's usually answered pretty quickly, or even that same day.
ferrous wrote: Most Mecha shows today, I can't really get into. They've repeatedly tried to top each other in spectacle to the point where they end up more like super hero robots and cease to have any grounding in reality.
During the Memorial Day weekend I downloaded a few subbed titles off YouTube to check out things I remember seeing as a kid back around the very early 80's or late 70's.
I finally saw the ending of Space Battleship Yamato (Star Blazers: Quest for Iscandar)... all 2+ hours of it, which I notice Robotech and subsequent series heavily copied or outright ripped off.
Creating their own material would probably have been a lot better.
I managed to sit through two whole episodes of Fang of the Sun: Dougram and then deleted the few others I had started to DL. All those guns, yet everyone literally walks into melee range.
I think it was actually worse than VOTOMS on the corny-cliched-convenient-o'meter, if that is even possible.
Apparently though you actually do have to be a kid to watch Battle of the Planets, as I only made it through one episode.
I hadn't remembered the Scooby Doo cast doing the English voice acting.
I didn't watch any Gundam, from the previews and wiki writeup it seems too much like what Battletech or Heavy Gear turned into.
I started watching Starship Operators, which has zero-G ships but no mecha that I've seen as yet.
I've watched some GitS and Appleseed, but I wish they were as pragmatic about combat in the show(s) as they tend to be in the manga.
Instead of being all about watching the female characters strip down, which really cuts into time better used to make sense of the detailed plot or else to have more fighting.
Planetes I think struck a good balance, except for not having any robots.... Mars Daybreak however is pretty silly, even though it does have robots and drones.
Yeah, Ghost in the Shell had enjoyable (if sometimes annoyingly voiced) mecha. Though I think Gundam MS08th Team is my favorite for gritty, land based mecha action. Over the top seems to be the name of the game now-a-days.
Yup, that was one of the few Gundam shows I liked. But we're both mentioning shows that are almost a decade older or more. GiTS was 2005, 8th ms team was 1996. Ouch.
Likewise, last I checked, a lot of the game still needs very basic passes to show how off the math can be. People are still arguing for +1d6 defense for every scrap of terrain in the way between the firer and the target... in other words, ranged combat simply won't work on boards with any decent amount of terrain. Zany.
... We are talking about DP9. Math is irrelevant, wrong and evil.
So is taking into account differences between table layouts, trying to figure out what kind of terrain is needed, and writing clear guidelines so that players know how they should setup their tables, for that matter.
Yeah, that lack of mathematical rigour is probably what is really holding back DP9 on its rules development. Playtest reports are valuable, but some things should be apparent by even basic number crunching but get ignored in the approach of playtest report-uber-alles.
Chemical Cutthroat wrote: Though I think Gundam MS08th Team is my favorite for gritty, land based mecha action.
Yup, that was one of the few Gundam shows I liked. But we're both mentioning shows that are almost a decade older or more. GiTS was 2005, 8th ms team was 1996. Ouch.
It's kind of like what gone done with the new Star Trek movies, going the whole-hog non-stop special effects bonanza in place of plot or etc because audiences are so used to seeing things like Star Wars that all they care about is the pretty.
Same goes for games too, and it's getting worse not better I think.
It's almost like the creators want you to be numbed by visual or information overload before the game or movie even hits the halfway point.
Not to mention most folks nowadays seem to have the attention span of a gnat, expecting everything to be handed to them or figured out for them instead of looking it up for themselves before applying that gained knowledge.
While an easy thing to cater to, it doesn't leave anything for those looking to see some meat out of their entertainment.
Daba wrote:Any comments on how new rules are turning out? Would it be better to use a 'Heavy Infinity' type as I haven't managed to play a game of Heavy Gear yet with the current/old/ihavenoidea rules and I'm semi-familiar with the Infinity ones?
(I have a reasonable number of northern and southern mechs and units, but never played a game with them).
IceRaptor wrote:
Daba wrote: Any comments on how new rules are turning out? Would it be better to use a 'Heavy Infinity' type as I haven't managed to play a game of Heavy Gear yet with the current/old/ihavenoidea rules and I'm semi-familiar with the Infinity ones?
Brandon and Warboss' take on Infinity Gear - are pretty nice. You'll get a more Infinity feel from them, if that's what you're looking for. The Silhouette rules have a beauty of their own, but expect to have a learning curve as you start figuring out how to make the different pieces work well together. Either way, hope you have fun!
That's a very nice compliment coming from you Ice. Thank you.
Chemical Cutthroat wrote:I sat down with all my rulebooks last night, and along with some browsing of BrandonKF's rules, started working on some ideas of my own.
But my goal isn't to try and replace the rules, I'm just adapting the setting to a rulesystem that I'm more experienced with. For lethality and whatnot. Certainly not for balance reasons! That truly must be the most frustrating thing about game design, trying to give cool abilities/units while maintaining balance. Right now I'm just working on the weapon charts and adjusting the statlines to something different, and then crossing them over so they still have any special rules represented properly (or almost properly). Damnit Excel!
I could post links to stuff once I have it more concrete if anyone is interested. I might bug this thread's massive depth of knowledge at times if that's alright.
Feel free to send me a link to your blog/page/what-have-you with your own houserules, Chemical. I wouldn't mind starting a small fan-based circle of folks who created a cohesive set of fan rules for the game.
Eumerin wrote:
BrandonKF wrote: Paxton sells to everybody. Easy to describe written-off chassis getting PA weapons for themselves. Cheaper, more durable, and easy to find ammunition.
The Polar nations should have plenty of incentive to support their own arms industries. For instance, going to war with Peace River (always a possibility) could easily cut into the availability of LACs if they were using Paxton Arms models. Plus, the simpler Paxton Arms stuff - a LAC, for instance - is, according to the fluff, just knock-offs of equipment designed and produced by the Polar Nations.
NorthCo, Shaian, Keimuri, and Riley, should all be selling LACs by the bucketload to the Northern nations. And their Southern counterparts should be doing the same for the Southern nations.
I was speaking more of independent city-states, Eumerin, but your point is very valid.
ferrous wrote:Poor Alien, I admire his enthusiasm, but yeah, that group was troubling as they would push agendas that were clearly bad ideas, and get more attention because of their enthusiasm.
The Alpha is a shame, as I recall Ice originally capped the dice mods fairly low, which would've helped speed things up, as once you hit X dice, just roll.
Most Mecha shows today, I can't really get into. They've repeatedly tried to top each other in spectacle to the point where they end up more like super hero robots and cease to have any grounding in reality. Some of the best instances of mechs tend to be shows where the mechs aren't the focus of the show, they're just there, like Ghost in the Shell's tv series.
And yeah, math and process has always been the pods problem.
Chemical Cutthroat wrote:Yeah, Ghost in the Shell had enjoyable (if sometimes annoyingly voiced) mecha. Though I think Gundam MS08th Team is my favorite for gritty, land based mecha action. Over the top seems to be the name of the game now-a-days.
Hence why I'm a fan of Heavy Gear. 08th MS Team is still my favorite UC Gundam storyline. All except for a few bits, but I won't get into that.
That's a very nice compliment coming from you Ice. Thank you.
Agreed, especially considering the source! Just for clarity, though, I'd mention that my house rules are derivative of HG Blitz and not related to Infinity as Brandon's are.
I think Blood Debt will soon hit (4) "fixes," so I wonder how many this last one will need....
At least one more is needed... a flat 10% increase in EVERY threat value to account for the ubiquitous special rules that NO model actually pays for yet ALL of them benefit from. Oh, and something like double cost artillery strikes to at least nominally (although not in reality) "pay" for their half price airstrikes. Those two changes would at least give the impression of balance in Blood Debt as opposed to the mary sue cheesefest my army is the bestest pdf it currently is.
Ok, let's be honest here, Paxton is far from being the only, or even main, balance problem. They might have more obvious horrors than the other factions, but if you pick the good options from the other factions (i.e. the broken ones), you can build lists just as un-balanced.
Smilodon_UP wrote: [..]and the first big thing is that Saleem and then Robert completely changed how the datacards were set up to work, I guess maybe to save space in an electronic format, but didn't change how the option line swaps were worded in the combat groups to reflect doing that.... as well as quite often reordering the options out of what little order they had to begin with...
It might be kind of hard to fit in a Jaguar Wildfire here and there when it's now only found on the Fire Jaguar, or ditto for a Hunter Wildfire that is now found only on the Assault Hunter. Which I notice got missed on pretty much every datacard for their special [AE 2] trait MPZ as well.
I expected more screaming about this by now, so most folks must not have noticed as yet. One thing I saw was that it seems to be impossible now to get some of the XMG models into the GP combat group because of how regular Hunter models have to be swapped with TPTB changes.
A lot of what they did also seems to have made it so many player's squadrons have to be [Veteran] as well, instead of more of them being allowed as [General], or else folks have some pretty off the wall builds.
mrondeau wrote: Ok, let's be honest here, Paxton is far from being the only, or even main, balance problem. They might have more obvious horrors than the other factions, but if you pick the good options from the other factions (i.e. the broken ones), you can build lists just as un-balanced.
Is it the only one? No, but it is an obvious one and the most recent (and continuing one given the initial alpha model stats and proposed lists). It also is the easiest to cheese out because the STOCK models that people already own have been buffed both in model stats, character stats, and special rules that cost players nothing. If I want to cheese out other armies, I have to buy new model releases and spend actual money making the cheese much less likely to be encountered in the wild (not that I can find many players but the point stands). With paxton, saleem just got to cheese out his existing collection with no one to tell him (with any authority) that he was taking it too far by not charging anything for the myriad of benefits. There is (as always) more behind the scenes drama than normally publicly known like Saleem unequivocably telling me that a certain existing northern build was just too powerful and couldn't be allowed to continue... only to have it appear in the Paxton book two weeks later as an option for the same type of squad that was losing it in the northern pdf. Is paxton as bad as Talons were before they were nerfed several times in a row (via multiple TV increases)? No... but the same design ethos permeates both.
I think you know my opinion of Saleem, so I won't go there, but I can find horrors that make Paxton looks over-costed in the Southern and NuCoal books too. You are over-emphasizing the issues with PRDF. It's a symptom of the true problem, but it's not the true problem.
The true problem is that DP9 does not care about game balance at all. It's just that the previously problematic "designers" were more subtle than Saleem about boosting what they want to play.
Smilodon_UP wrote: [..]and the first big thing is that Saleem and then Robert completely changed how the datacards were set up to work, I guess maybe to save space in an electronic format, but didn't change how the option line swaps were worded in the combat groups to reflect doing that.... as well as quite often reordering the options out of what little order they had to begin with...
It might be kind of hard to fit in a Jaguar Wildfire here and there when it's now only found on the Fire Jaguar, or ditto for a Hunter Wildfire that is now found only on the Assault Hunter. Which I notice got missed on pretty much every datacard for their special [AE 2] trait MPZ as well.
I expected more screaming about this by now, so most folks must not have noticed as yet. One thing I saw was that it seems to be impossible now to get some of the XMG models into the GP combat group because of how regular Hunter models have to be swapped with TPTB changes.
A lot of what they did also seems to have made it so many player's squadrons have to be [Veteran] as well, instead of more of them being allowed as [General], or else folks have some pretty off the wall builds.
I suspect people just haven't crunched the army list's new options enough to notice it. The variants swaps have a pretty steep learning curve and you have to remember that you're way ahead since you mapped out every nook and cranny.
The true problem is that DP9 does not care about game balance at all. It's just that the previously problematic "designers" were more subtle than Saleem about boosting what they want to play.
Agreed except for the subtle part. I see paxton as talons LITE and the creep there is more subtle at 10% undervalued roughly compared with the 20-30% in Talons judging from their successive TV increases. If anything, that indicates that the paxton creep was more subtle to avoid notice. YMMV. In any case, it's more an issue of not learning the true lessons from previous mistakes. You would think that the Talons who had to be increased in TV twice in row would have taught the pod that giving out army wide rules for free is a mistake but Paxton shows they didn't learn anything and I fear that the same thing will happen in the Alpha. The reception to "selectively" pricing various units and upgrades so that the exact same thing costs differing amounts depending on the faction was met largely with derision (I can't recall if anyone liked it frankly)... but Dave snuck it into the northern sublists anyways because he likes it. The pod simply doesn't learn and keeps trying to reinvent the same damn wheel every time they come out with a "new" product.
warboss wrote: The pod simply doesn't learn and keeps trying to reinvent the same damn wheel every time they come out with a "new" product.
The problem with creating anything is that people demand and expect new, but they don't necessarily want unique.
For the most part, people need the familiar to feel comfortable enough to function.
And if a particular setting or whatnot lacks something they "need," they'll simply continue to loudly ask for whatever that is to be included until they get whatever it is they want, or else add it themselves, rather than look for it elsewhere.
But if you aren't part of the majority interested in whatever those kinds of folks are clamoring for, well, it sucks to be you. There isn't any room anymore when that happens.
You aren't forced out directly, unless one of those nice folks who got what they wanted chooses to phrase it as such, but it's the exact same effect in the end anyways.
Yes and no. When a given line benefits from a strong direction, it's far less likely to change course midway to cater for the various trends that crop up.
On the other hand, it does feel like HGB changes course at least once a year...
Killionaire wrote: Likewise, last I checked, a lot of the game still needs very basic passes to show how off the math can be. People are still arguing for +1d6 defense for every scrap of terrain in the way between the firer and the target... in other words, ranged combat simply won't work on boards with any decent amount of terrain. Zany.
The math was originally setup for a 2D6 vs. 2D6 roll as the standard, which places the success of outcomes around 60% in the attacker's favor on equal augments. Modifiers were intentionally kept limited, because the difference in high and low augment models really starts to show in those cases. A 2+ augment will have a radically different outcome on 10D6 than a 5+ augment, so the thought was to keep modifiers limited to keep the possible skew low. At 6D6 the most an augment contributes is +4, and will more typically be +1 or +2, which allows 'elite' models to have an edge but not completely overwhelm the 'non-elite' model's ability to respond, either.
Cover was never really addressed to my satisfaction in the pre-Alpha, but at the time it was simple - you got +1D for light, +2D for heavy and you simply picked the value between you and your opponent. You needed 50% cover to get the bonus, 100% cover required your opponent to Detect you. It worked great for Gears, but vehicles tended to make very little use of cover, thanks to their low DEF augment ratings. Some situations were brought up where you could only see 10% of the model, but it was still 'easily hit' which rubbed people the wrong way. That morphed into the +1D for each additional point of cover, but that always felt like the wrong solution to me; it felt more correct to just let cover apply a flat roll, or a augment bonus, but in both cases there are specific models that don't benefit from cover in that case. It probably should have been a flat modifier, but at the time I was trying to keep the system as 'clean' as possible and not have modifiers that influenced both the number of dice you roll, and the final result of the roll, if possible.
But yeah, a major point of the pre-Alpha was to make ranged combat possible, if not work well.
ferrous wrote: The Alpha is a shame, as I recall Ice originally capped the dice mods fairly low, which would've helped speed things up, as once you hit X dice, just roll.
To be fair, there was never a hard cap in place, it was more of a "don't add too many dice to the system or it breaks" . Having done the numbers, I knew intimately that too many dice end up going back to the 'too many modifiers' problem, where you basically just find the best augment model and go from there. I originally didn't want to encourage that - I wanted the differences in models to be subtle not overt, so that a Jaguar was better in specific situations but tended to operate very much like a Hunter in the common case. Straight rolls of 2D v. 2D would give you very similar performances for the models, but a Jaguar could use cover and attack modifiers 'better'.
I feel like this point was something that's been eroded, as I know that there was a strong backlash from people who thought it was ludicrous that their elite troopers (Black Mambas, Jaguars) couldn't stand in the open at the start of the game without taking damage. That's entirely possible in Blitz, due to the way that modifiers stack, but in the pre-Alpha if you were within 18" of your opponent, and in the open you likely would take a point or two of damage from autocannons and on a good roll from heavier weapons could be blown away. Again, we're talking a ~75% chance to hit on 3Dv2D (+1D for autocannons) vs. 60% with a basic weapon, but autocannons were weaker. The defender having a mere +1D from cover shifts those numbers back to 60% and 45% IIRC.
It looks like most of the elites got +1D DEF automatically, likely because people thought they were dying too easily. Which was the partly the point - the combination of the intentional shift from overt to subtle impacts of equipment (through augments) plus the shift to having a 'swingier' system (because its based on dice not modifiers) was intentional. But I'd guess people didn't care for those changes and Dave is moving it in another direction.
But as I think IceRaptor said, a flat [+mod number] is almost always better in Silhouette over most everything else, including skill. Which Dave has now turned into needing to figure out how many dice to roll, which is probably too often more than you can hold in your hand, for almost every attack, defense, or other in-game check.
Modifiers overwhelm the contribution from skill fairly quickly; IMO if you have to pick between rolling 2D6+1 and 3D6 in Sil, you're better off with 3D6 because the variance in the outcome will be reduced; you're more likely to get a 5 or 6 from the dice, whereas in the 2D6+1 case you've got a ~50% chance of a 5 or 6, but still plenty of possible outcomes otherwise. But if you have to pick between rolling 2D6+2 or 4D6, I'd tend to go with the 2D6+2 because the likelyhood of you getting an 7 or 8 is low, whereas with a bit of luck you can get a 7 or 8 from the 2D6 roll naturally. Additional dice in Sil just makes results trend towards 6, they don't necessarily make then trend higher - whereas modifiers, by their nature, most certainly do.
Which is why you're better off getting a Jaguar over a Skill 3 Hunter; the Jaguar is +1 over the Hunter to start with and benefits from additional modifiers 'more' because as the modifiers get higher, they completely offset the benefit of the dice rolls. The Jaguar that's got a +3 roll is going to see stronger outcomes more than the skill 3 Hunter with a +2 roll, simply because of the way the system is setup. The Hunter's results may be more reliable over time... but most gamers probably won't notice that. It's especially rough because of the way that the DAM vs. ARM values were established, which makes most attacks fail until you beat the defender by +2 or more. So those 'average' results from the Hunter get swallowed up, while the high 'bursts' from the Jaguar show through.
Anything further I might create relating to Heavy Gear or another setting is entirely for myself, which I may or may not share. Mostly because I'm tired of my competence and knowledge immediately being questioned by the vast majority of folks either online or IRL in lieu of having an actual discussion. Especially with the type of folks who only want to be right and can't see it.
I hope we continue to see more of you around, but I think the HG community needs to find a new 'home' myself. Part of what you're describing is just the nature of the internet, but part of it two is just differences in expectations from the setting. Everybody thinks their view of HG is the right one, and get defensive when they are questioned about it. Of course, most of them just want to play the RPG so ...
I hope we continue to see more of you around, but I think the HG community needs to find a new 'home' myself. Part of what you're describing is just the nature of the internet, but part of it two is just differences in expectations from the setting. Everybody thinks their view of HG is the right one, and get defensive when they are questioned about it. Of course, most of them just want to play the RPG so ...
To a large extent, this thread is that new home.
Combine it with RPG.net, and you pretty much have everyone that (kinda) cares anymore about HG.
The fact that DP9 has chosen to cater to RPG fans, and not to wargamers (if anything, they're pretty hostile to that demographic) is a large part of why HG Blitz never took off. Well, that and their crass incompetence, of course.
I don't frankly think there is enough interest to keep alive another entire community revolving around HG to be honest. Even with the refugees that post in this thread, it would be a pretty underwhelming post count for an entire board. It's a nice thought though. In any case, we'll see how the beta release goes at gencon. I don't think the apparent lack of any scheduled games (whether sponsored or indy... neither category had any) will help the release.
In any case, I'm working again on my northern army albeit in a dimished capacity. I'll be tweaking the minimum amount possible to make it Lion's Wrath ready with only two new minis added to the collection and two others converted to different variants. I bought around a dozen minis last year in prep for this but I just don't think it is worth the effort at the moment. I don't even know if the SECCOM Cheetahs I'm converting will even make it to the alpha.
HudsonD wrote: The fact that DP9 has chosen to cater to RPG fans, and not to wargamers (if anything, they're pretty hostile to that demographic) is a large part of why HG Blitz never took off. Well, that and their crass incompetence, of course.
I'm an RPG fan first and foremost, and let me tell you: they're most certainly not catering to me. Not with the way they're treating the core setting and material.
Albertorius wrote: I'm an RPG fan first and foremost, and let me tell you: they're most certainly not catering to me. Not with the way they're treating the core setting and material.
Well duh, we all know you're not a fan, you're one of those hateful haters that hate DP9 More seriously, I should have written RPG "fans", with the quote marks. DP9 fans are a weird bunch, to say the least.
Simply put: they want to make a RPG, but are making a wargame instead, so they try to have the breath of a RPG, in term of what's included, but in a wargame. That means that one-off units, historical vehicles, specialists, hyper-rares and death traps must all be fitted in with the normal "wargame" range of models.
Then, less-than-competent "designers" try to give non-redundant stats to those, without testing or doing any maths, based on an obsolete ad-hoc point system that was probably not followed that much by its designers. The end result is that a lot of models have absurd stats and no real correlation between their cost and performance. On top of that, the original RPG, which is the source of all that, was not balanced at that level (nor should it have been!), so some factions ends up with all the advantages, while others have nothing.
Of course, on top of all that, the "designers" have their own rather specific view of the setting and of what make for a good universe, so everything has to fit that view, no matter what the previous products said..
As an ex-PRDF player, the new fluff for Peace-River left a rather sour taste in my mouth. "Yea, that professional, well equipped and trained army you were playing ? They are a bunch of psychopathic madmen with hair triggers now."
That's still better than what they did to the Humanist Alliance, of course.
They also put out this video as their first new coverage of the game since the failed pair of crowdfunding campaigns.
I'm glad to hear that their forums are finally working again. I checked out their site a few months back and they weren't despite the dead links staying on the front page of their site.
Smilodon_UP wrote: Mostly because I'm tired of my competence and knowledge immediately being questioned by the vast majority of folks either online or IRL in lieu of having an actual discussion. Especially with the type of folks who only want to be right and can't see it.
Part of what you're describing is just the nature of the internet, but part of it too is just differences in expectations from the setting. Everybody thinks their view of HG is the right one, and get defensive when they are questioned about it. Of course, most of them just want to play the RPG so ...
True enough, but it still sucks, and it's quite hard not to take in a bad way. It would be nice someday to be able to take pride in something created for and accepted by a community, but again, it is true people don't act like that when they see the chance to question.
IceRaptor wrote: [..] but I think the HG community needs to find a new 'home' myself.
HudsonD wrote: To a large extent, this thread is that new home. Combine it with RPG.net, and you pretty much have everyone that (kinda) cares anymore about HG.
warboss wrote: I don't frankly think there is enough interest to keep alive another entire community revolving around HG to be honest. Even with the refugees that post in this thread, it would be a pretty underwhelming post count for an entire board. It's a nice thought though.
I personally don't think there is enough non-Pod supporters to make a go of anything really, having precipitated from such a tiny pool of folks to begin with.
The G+ community is all but dead, and the Facebook community numbers are bloated by those who joined to "like" during the give-away contests, leaving maybe two dozen or so active posters and commentators from what I've seen on there.
But it's still nice to talk about things HG, or at least where an open discussion can still be had.
Albertorius wrote: Not with the way they're treating the core setting and material.
mrondeau wrote: Of course, on top of all that, the "designers" have their own rather specific view of the setting and of what makes for a good universe, so everything has to fit that view, no matter what the previous products said.. That's still better than what they did to the Humanist Alliance, of course.
Yeah, as had been said many times before anything in the setting that doesn't have a "promoter" gets treated in an extremely shoddy manner.
Someone commented to me recently that even the North is getting that treatment now, as if it's merely an afterthought the Pod has to keep going just because it's such a big thing in the source material(s) by being an original primary faction.
I'm honestly surprised Utopia even made it into the Alpha. But a lot less surprised by how it got handled yet again, lacking as it does any supporters amongst TPTB.
BrandonKF wrote: Good thing the RPG is being worked on. Oh, and there's some new forums open for Heavy Gear Assault, if anyone's interested.
Sadly, both of which are intended for players whose interest coincides with a "mecha-oriented" take on the setting.
For me, one of the very big things that needs to be reintroduced would be verisimilitude. I don't need things to be "realistic" (because, well, stompy robots, duh), but I need it to be coherent and believable enough.
And honestly, since the NuCoal book (and even before, TBH) basically nothing I've seen in the newer Blitz books has been. Not in the mechanical sense (Gearstriders... >_>, particularly the Drake, of course, or... well, basically every NuCoal design in that book) or the world building sense (the NuCoal/HA/exodus shenanigans coupled with the sudden but inevitable tenfold population growth feels... well, absolutely nuts and stupid, or at least as if someone expects me to be stupid).
Oh, and there's some new forums open for Heavy Gear Assault, if anyone's interested.
-Brandon F.
I do have hopes for Arkrite. Let's see how it pans out, but at the very least Robert isn't there >_>
I can't really comment on the latter half, but as far as how it pans out, I am hopeful as well.
For me, one of the very big things that needs to be reintroduced would be verisimilitude. I don't need things to be "realistic" (because, well, stompy robots, duh), but I need it to be coherent and believable enough.
And honestly, since the NuCoal book (and even before, TBH) basically nothing I've seen in the newer Blitz books has been. Not in the mechanical sense (Gearstriders... >_>, particularly the Drake, of course, or... well, basically every NuCoal design in that book) or the world building sense (the NuCoal/HA/exodus shenanigans coupled with the sudden but inevitable tenfold population growth feels... well, absolutely nuts and stupid, or at least as if someone expects me to be stupid).
So yeah, less of that, please.
I wouldn't choose to speak for Arkrite's directors, but speaking for myself, I don't think anyone expects folks to be stupid. I think that there is going to be some changes made to the population, in particular because it is a very sparse population number to give for a world that is largely covered in land. You've made mention of that, I believe, Albertorius.
BrandonKF wrote: I wouldn't choose to speak for Arkrite's directors, but speaking for myself, I don't think anyone expects folks to be stupid. I think that there is going to be some changes made to the population, in particular because it is a very sparse population number to give for a world that is largely covered in land. You've made mention of that, I believe, Albertorius.
I'm not talking about Arkrite, but DP9. And seriously, it's how it comes off, because the stuff from TPS can't stand even a cursory examination without falling apart at the seams. It's just too full of Deus Ex Machina and stupid ball tossing to feel any other way.
As for the population, there is a marked difference between retconning the setting to put more people in the whole planet (and saying that you're doing it, and stating the reasons you're doing it for) and multiplying by 10 the population of a region just because, without any serious attempt to explain it rationally, and without giving a way for that much people to be fed and catered to (because, you know, middle of the desert). Personally I think it would be ok in the first case, if done well and for, you know, actual reasons, whereas I'm not ok with it in the second case.
BrandonKF wrote: I am aware of your misgivings about The Perfect Storm, Albertorius, and I understand that you would prefer the company had announced it.
I like the additional foil the New Coalition brings to the world of Heavy Gear.
-Brandon F.
Don't get me wrong. I don't dislike the idea of the NuCoal. I dislike the implementation we've got.
BrandonKF wrote: I am aware of your misgivings about The Perfect Storm, Albertorius, and I understand that you would prefer the company had announced it.
I like the additional foil the New Coalition brings to the world of Heavy Gear.
-Brandon F.
Don't get me wrong. I don't dislike the idea of the NuCoal. I dislike the implementation we've got.
Don't get me wrong. I don't dislike the idea of the NuCoal. I dislike the implementation we've got.
See, we're going back to my previous point, with decent writers, NuCoal could have been an awesome addition to the setting. As is, they're an embarassement. The same is true for basically everything in the last few years.
Arena, TPS, the Alpha, etc... they all could have been awesome, but DP9™ happened...
BrandonKF wrote: I am aware of your misgivings about The Perfect Storm, Albertorius, and I understand that you would prefer the company had announced it.
I like the additional foil the New Coalition brings to the world of Heavy Gear.
-Brandon F.
Don't get me wrong. I don't dislike the idea of the NuCoal. I dislike the implementation we've got.
That's fair and I have respect for you.
-Brandon F.
There will come the day when I'll have free time enough to actually rewrite the NuCoal stuff to make it more to my liking, and to line it with my idea of the setting.
Smilodon_UP wrote: Yeah, as had been said many times before anything in the setting that doesn't have a "promoter" gets treated in an extremely shoddy manner. Someone commented to me recently that even the North is getting that treatment now, as if it's merely an afterthought the Pod has to keep going just because it's such a big thing in the source material(s) by being an original primary faction.
Is it related to the religious aspect of the North? I remember a thread on the DP9 forums a while back in which the majority of the posters seemed stunned by the idea that the North wasn't the default "bad guy" in the North vs South conflicts due to its strong religious tendencies. The fact that the South was politically repressive got a shrugged dismissal, as it wasn't seen as a particularly big deal. I wouldn't be surprised if the importance of religion in the North, coupled with the fact that the North isn't (contrary to the above expressed idea) a default "bad guy", is a problem for some of the people currently working on the current iteration of the game.
For me, one of the very big things that needs to be reintroduced would be verisimilitude. I don't need things to be "realistic" (because, well, stompy robots, duh), but I need it to be coherent and believable enough.
And honestly, since the NuCoal book (and even before, TBH) basically nothing I've seen in the newer Blitz books has been. Not in the mechanical sense (Gearstriders... >_>, particularly the Drake, of course, or... well, basically every NuCoal design in that book) or the world building sense (the NuCoal/HA/exodus shenanigans coupled with the sudden but inevitable tenfold population growth feels... well, absolutely nuts and stupid, or at least as if someone expects me to be stupid).
So yeah, less of that, please.
Yup, that's me as well, the series stretches things enough as is with the Gears alone, but then they go an decide to add "Bigger is better" models, which felt like a shameless attempt to get sales at the price of the setting. And tanks with arms, ugh. That book was so full of terrible. And it wasn't just the models, but the rules were bad too. The herohammer KADA, the triple-linked MRPs, the hey, we're the new faction, so we're totally built to utilize the current ruleset, with ECCM on every CGL and other various advantages, while all previous factions adhered to fluff. Oh and their TV was way off in comparison to everyone else at launch, making them essentially unplayable with the other factions. NuCoal was a real FUBAR mess.
Sadly, both of which are intended for players whose interest coincides with a "mecha-oriented" take on the setting. Which leaves me out, again .....
I don't know what you mean when you say 'mecha-oriented'.
* Real life and real war involves more than a little mud and blood, lightened occasionally by outbreaks of gallows humor or tension driven antics. Whatever amount of grit the HG setting had in this area is long since gone.
* Combat is about making the first, best, attack. This obviously has to be changed and balanced significantly to make a tabletop wargame fun enough to play repeatedly, but should not be an acceptable compromise in the fiction. Fair play is one side not wanting to walk away alive, instead of being merciful as allowable to hostile survivors after one side wins. HG has chosen to only rarely reference war to the knife, and even then just in passing.
* In conflicts it's the faceless ranks fighting small actions no one else will ever truly care about beyond the few of either side who were there in the moment that enable a resolution. History is instead about the decisions made by a chosen few visible to the populace for whatever reason, who essentially take credit for the actions of others, when most of time they merely provided directions and/or resources. But again, this is almost never what any HG story is like.
* Putting aside for the moment a dubious need for "arena" vehicle bloodsports, the only non-weapon systems that should exist if the setting includes viable anthropomorphic and non-anthropomorphic combat walkers are perhaps basic vibro-blades, chainswords, spike guns, and chassis reinforcement. Things best able to be used as efficient light engineering tools that also prevent damage to the machine(s) when carrying out those kinds of tasks, just like on any other vehicle type. Actual use as a vehicular weapon should be extremely rare actions of utter desperation, not a viable choice on a ranged battlefield that is supposedly highly lethal due to every machine having it's own very capable computer brain. However, everyone knows mecha-melee will never go away, or even get pared down to this kind of level, for any setting.
* Any vehicle facing more than two to one odds by itself should never be able to win. At best it should hope to end up with a draw and go for causing as much damage as possible in a single attack, or try to withdraw. Outside of a duel, which again is kind of dubious in such a setting, any duelist should be killed just like everyone else when this happens. But "mary-sue" hero figures are always going to be the norm in any setting, otherwise no one would bother with it beyond a small handful.
* One core tenet in the HG setting is that Gears are mass produced IFVs requiring only a single pilot, with interchangeable semi-AI brains of varying personality capability. Although many soldiers of some national origins tend to identify with their vehicle as a fellow solider, it doesn't mean they won't use another of the type they are trained on from the same unit any differently. Much like the Fuchikomas or landmates in manga, the machines should be viewed by a unit as a collateral whole available for usage as needed. But this never happens, it's always a focus on Gears as if they were mini-'mechs or mini-gundams.
* I can actually get behind the concept of child soldiers based on young adults who have to mature faster in a hostile environment given how quickly even "hot" cold wars eat up personnel and materiel. But the angsty part always seems to tag along anyways, I guess just to draw a bigger crowd looking for the T&A + sexual tension manga aspect.
I think I just proved my ideas in this area are too contrary to what the larger community wants to have any affect whatsoever on the matter. And IME, coherent is never going to happen, or be allowed to happen.
Albertorius wrote: I do have hopes for Arkrite. Let's see how it pans out, but at the very least Robert isn't there >_>
But Robert still holds the licensing, so there will be some influence on things he doesn't want to see, or on things he wants to try and sell. And everyone here knows how good he is at figuring out either of those concepts in a useful manner.
BrandonKF wrote: I like the additional foil the New Coalition brings to the world of Heavy Gear.
Don't get me wrong. I don't dislike the idea of the NuCoal. I dislike the implementation we've got.
I haven't seen anything yet in what Jason and Greg have released to make me doubt they won't continue in that same vein either.
Eumerin wrote: Is it related to the religious aspect of the North? I remember a thread on the DP9 forums a while back in which the majority of the posters seemed stunned by the idea that the North wasn't the default "bad guy" in the North vs South conflicts due to its strong religious tendencies. The fact that the South was politically repressive got a shrugged dismissal, as it wasn't seen as a particularly big deal.
In other games it might be something like that, but I think you're vastly over-thinking the situation.
It's more that none of TPTB who're left personally play North as their faction.
Only Paxton is represented that anyone knows of.
There is also some question as to how smart the folks at the top actually are about things like this, involving either intangible ideas like religion or seeing how badly they self-promote their own ideas.
Personally though, I don't assume much anymore that TPTB have that kind of brains when they do even bother to try and think things through.
ferrous wrote: [...] but then they go an decide to add "Bigger is better" models, which felt like a shameless attempt to get sales at the price of the setting. [...] Oh and their TV was way off in comparison to everyone else at launch, making them essentially unplayable with the other factions.
$$$ grab sales is exactly what it is. Notice which models are always getting pushed through the pipeline over at the Pod?
Big, one-off showpieces they must know only a handful of folks will buy, that are somehow expected to keep things going just a little longer.
All those other models getting passed over, may never see the light of day.
Nor may those currently without any art ever get art - because the generalissimo is very, very bad about wanting to pay anyone in anything but product, whether or not the freelancer can make any use of it.
But yeah, they are really bad about the TV thing getting figured correctly to start, and then altering things that shouldn't be so as to make them more viable than something else they don't care about as much.
Like say the Scimitar, which should cost more than a Standard Mammoth to around what an Aller goes for - except it got discounted to match the Drake, which is itself probably undercosted.
As is the Hussar too most likely, so that people would buy and use it, no matter how poorly they might perform in-game.
In the RPG's "defense", we simply haven't seen enough of any part of it to make much of a determination of where it will go. They may genuinely like much derided things introduced in Blitz like gear striders and the rabbit-like procreation habits of badlanders that caused the massive population boom... or they're mandated to follow the established fluff to some extent by the license (and pride on the part of DP9 in not admitting that they were wrong). We'll likely never know which is true but we don't even have enough info yet to know if either is.
$$$ grab sales is exactly what it is. Notice which models are always getting pushed through the pipeline over at the Pod? Big, one-off showpieces they must know only a handful of folks will buy, that are somehow expected to keep things going just a little longer. All those other models getting passed over, may never see the light of day. Nor may those currently without any art ever get art - because the generalissimo is very, very bad about wanting to pay anyone in anything but product, whether or not the freelancer can make any use of it.
Bolded for emphasis, and I can confirm this as factual and accurate.
If anyone wondered why DP9 can't attract and/or retain talent to save their life, now you know...
For this summer we'll be putting out a small format Beta Rulebook printed b&w which will be $15 and will first be available at Gen Con. The Beta Rulebook will mainly be the cleaned up Alpha Rules that Dave has be running playtesting on since the start of 2014 into Beta Rules in a small format book player can carry around to play until the final new edition rulebook is released. We are also going to make the Beta Rulebook available as a free download for everyone.
That's not a good news, that's the bare minimum. You do not ask players to pay for a beta, for the same reason you do not ask peoples helping you move to pay you.
mrondeau wrote: That's not a good news, that's the bare minimum. You do not ask players to pay for a beta, for the same reason you do not ask peoples helping you move to pay you.
Of course, he is also trying to sell the beta...
I think the good news is the bit he highlighted about it being free for download. With that, you can get it for either free (tablet or e-reader version) or the cost of printing (if you want a hard copy).
Though I'll be the first to admit that $15 for the DP9 provided hard copy seems steep for what should be a low-production value temporary release.
That once again appeared preferentially on Facebook, which el presidente apparently already forgot, because that was a whole two weeks ago;
Dream Pod 9, Inc. wrote: We are working on a new edition of the game, which is in Alpha playtesting right now, we plan on releasing a small b&w printed book for $15 at this summer's Gen Con and it also be available as a free pdf download. That way players can start using the new rules and help us with playtesting. The final rulebook is planned for the summer of 2015, that way it will have about 8 months of additional beta testing before it has to go into final layout. We want to make sure we getting everything right before we release the final edition.
May 19 at 3:21pm
You've really got to wonder how someone who can't even string together such a simple sentence, or even notice that it needed an edit, managed to end up trying to run a business of any kind.
But it's typically tacky of the man to try and sell something unfinished or of dubious value. Wonder though if the Pod will manage to forget whatever copies they do print-out back in Montreal again like last year when a bunch of product stuff didn't make it to Gencon.
The part about a free alternative is kind of mystifying, as it makes me wonder how many folks he thinks will actually buy it? It's that whole thing again like he has never heard of wifi capable laptops and smart phones....
Normally I'm one to jump into the deep end of the negativity pool but I don't see this as a bad thing. If those who are buying the copies want to pay nothing instead then they have that option with the free download. They can then print out the pages 4 per page double sided for less than a dollar on their own printer at the lowest setting if they don't want to only use the completely free electronic version. I don't see a big issue with charging for the physical copies of the beta rules although I fully admit (and have in the past) that the classy thing to do would be to 100% credit that purchase towards the final version at the next gencon. I don't think there is a snowball's chance in hell of that happening but no one is forcing anyone to buy the dead tree beta rules. If you simply *MUST* play the latest version of HG (insert player community size joke here), you have a completely free option.
I'm saying that having a free version available should not be "news". Not having a free version available would be (bad) news, but the availability of a free version is not only expected, it's the bare minimum! Less than the bare minimum would be a free version that is updated regularly.
warboss wrote: A better video than the one I posted that was the first update in around a year?
I still get a kick out of the part where he mentions "billboards in etc" two years ago that went nowhere, and that he still apparently sees this project as going well.
Then John and Jason also talk PC, console, or mobile that same GenCon. I notice they likewise mention artists already gone from working with the company within less than a year.
But last year, the Pod was all about promoting Blitz! when they already knew it was going away.
What should any player or potential player believe about the future of the setting, the company, or it's associated products from other companies.
warboss wrote: In the RPG's "defense", we simply haven't seen enough of any part of it to make much of a determination of where it will go.
I suppose that is true enough to grant the RPG reboot a "maybe," dropping some of the things they've said on the blog.
It'll take some time to know, as currently they are merely trading on the name as much as the Pod is anymore, and only doing a facelift on an existing product for the moment.
I've had other dealings with Jason & Greg aside from testing, but yes, it is somewhat impossible to know how much was mandated and how much was actual creation on their part.
One thing I did find out about them though that gives me pause, is that in my experience the who matters more than the what with them.
Smilodon_UP wrote: [..] because the generalissimo is very, very bad about wanting to pay anyone in anything but product, whether or not the freelancer can make any use of it.
Bolded for emphasis, and I can confirm this as factual and accurate.
If anyone wondered why DP9 can't attract and/or retain talent to save their life, now you know...
Promised "paid by" dates never enter the picture either, which probably doesn't help much at all. It's understandable that small companies inevitably have $$$ flow problems, but partial payments delayed into another quarter, or partial final payments half a year or more delayed, is likely some kind of warning sign.
Heh, don't get me started on Heavy Gear Assault. The way the mektek folks handled the press and early development on that almost makes DP9 look like pros in comparison.
I have a very faint hope that the game will end up any good. (It shouldn't be that hard, all they really have to do is re-skin Gears of War and make some minor tweaks since they are mechs)
Does anyone know what exactly the Welcome in the Jungle RPG product will be? It is just an adventure for the old ruleset or will it contain the new version of the rules in some basic form ala the intro adventures for D&D?
warboss wrote: Does anyone know what exactly the Welcome in the Jungle RPG product will be? It is just an adventure for the old ruleset or will it contain the new version of the rules in some basic form ala the intro adventures for D&D?
For the uninitiated like myself, where would be the best place to find ANY info on the RPG? I hear a thing or two in passing, but nothing concrete.
For paper copies, look on eBay for the core rulebooks from older editions as they can usually be bought for less than ten bucks including shipping.. There are PDFs on sale as well legally on drive thru RPG so you don't have to resort to the pirated copies floating around.
It would seem we're already done discussing mecha orientation in game settings. 'Tis OK.
And the silence on the Alpha again after all the hoopla over scheduling and releasing the sub-lists, sheesh. Though I guess it's rather silly to keep being surprised at what all they manage not to accomplish given the Pod's track record.
Chemical Cutthroat wrote: Though I think Gundam MS08th Team is my favorite for gritty, land based mecha action.
Yup, that was one of the few Gundam shows I liked. But we're both mentioning shows that are almost a decade older or more. GiTS was 2005, 8th ms team was 1996. Ouch.
I watched (4) episodes here over last week of 08th MS Team with Indonesian subtitles. It had it's moments, but not really all that many for my tastes to make me want to finish watching it.
I do quite like the second PatLabor movie though, with it's heavy political subplots.
Smilodon_UP wrote: And the silence on the Alpha again after all the hoopla over scheduling and releasing the sub-lists, sheesh. Though I guess it's rather silly to keep being surprised at what all they manage not to accomplish given the Pod's track record.
Heh. You know what? I didn't even notice xD. Guess it shows how invested I am in all that.
Chemical Cutthroat wrote: Though I think Gundam MS08th Team is my favorite for gritty, land based mecha action.
Yup, that was one of the few Gundam shows I liked. But we're both mentioning shows that are almost a decade older or more. GiTS was 2005, 8th ms team was 1996. Ouch.
I watched (4) episodes here over last week of 08th MS Team with Indonesian subtitles. It had it's moments, but not really all that many for my tastes to make me want to finish watching it.
You might be looking for something Gundam really is not, because subtle it usually isn't xD. One of the Gundam shows I like most is still War in the Pocket, though, and still most of the series I like are UC, particularly One Year War and whereabouts.
I personally am much more eclectic with my mecha likings, I guess, because there have been some shows I have liked these last years, and they range pretty much through the whole range of the "Super Robot-Real Robot" axis ^_^
lesee, from the non Gundam franchises:
- Tengen Toppa Guren Lagann, because duh - Rideback (...well, the premise at least was great, and inspired me a great campaign)
- Macross Frontier (and everything Macross, I'm a bit of a fanboy)
- Infinite Ryvius was pretty great, but I'm not sure you could call it "mecha anime"
- Yamato 2199, same as above but even moreso (even then, if you haven't seen it yet, I recommend it greatly)
- Full Metal Panic, but except the last series is all older
- Broken Blade has its moments
- Sidonia no Kishi, but it is... weird xD
- Eureka Seven is fantastic, but a bit dense. And the sequels/prequels are mostly crap
- Flag was gorgeous, and made me want to know more about the setting
- Suisei no Gargantia I liked a lot, and being a series written by Urobutcher, it was pretty mild ^_^
That said, there has truly been a dearth of really great mecha anime shows in the last years, particularly of the more "real" side of the axis
I do quite like the second PatLabor movie though, with it's heavy political subplots.
Mostly everything Patlabor is pretty great, but the second movie is the absolute best. WXIII does not exist
Albertorious must have different definitions of grounded, if his first suggestion is Tengen Toppa Guren Lagann. =) That's like the opposite of grounded. (it's not a bad show though)
Of that list, I think only Flag counts, and honestly, because it's trying to be real world, it's missteps made it worse for me.
RE: Smilodon and Ms08th, it's a slow build series with some slow/filler-ish stuff in the middle, for being gundam, it's surprisingly grounded though, and I think that's what I liked about it, it has been a while since I've seen it to see how it holds up.
ferrous wrote: We're getting so derailed, but that's okay.
Albertorius must have different definitions of grounded, if his first suggestion is Tengen Toppa Guren Lagann. =) That's like the opposite of grounded. (it's not a bad show though)
...well, as I said...
I personally am much more eclectic with my mecha likings, I guess, because there have been some shows I have liked these last years, and they range pretty much through the whole range of the "Super Robot-Real Robot" axis ^_^
I'd also say that Patlabor tends to be surprisingly grounded when they don't go for comedy.
Smilodon_UP wrote: Yeah, as had been said many times before anything in the setting that doesn't have a "promoter" gets treated in an extremely shoddy manner. Someone commented to me recently that even the North is getting that treatment now, as if it's merely an afterthought the Pod has to keep going just because it's such a big thing in the source material(s) by being an original primary faction.
Is it related to the religious aspect of the North? I remember a thread on the DP9 forums a while back in which the majority of the posters seemed stunned by the idea that the North wasn't the default "bad guy" in the North vs South conflicts due to its strong religious tendencies. The fact that the South was politically repressive got a shrugged dismissal, as it wasn't seen as a particularly big deal. I wouldn't be surprised if the importance of religion in the North, coupled with the fact that the North isn't (contrary to the above expressed idea) a default "bad guy", is a problem for some of the people currently working on the current iteration of the game.
I am not aware of this thread. And being a religious person I would argue against it.
The fact that religion gets used to do evil things shouldn't be reason enough to go 'oh, they're religious, they're bad guys'. It's as much a knee-jerk reaction in my humble opinion as anything else that involves plot lines.
But I won't go into that any further. Suffice to say, in Heavy Gear, everyone can be the bad guy if they wished to be.
For me, one of the very big things that needs to be reintroduced would be verisimilitude. I don't need things to be "realistic" (because, well, stompy robots, duh), but I need it to be coherent and believable enough.
And honestly, since the NuCoal book (and even before, TBH) basically nothing I've seen in the newer Blitz books has been. Not in the mechanical sense (Gearstriders... >_>, particularly the Drake, of course, or... well, basically every NuCoal design in that book) or the world building sense (the NuCoal/HA/exodus shenanigans coupled with the sudden but inevitable tenfold population growth feels... well, absolutely nuts and stupid, or at least as if someone expects me to be stupid).
So yeah, less of that, please.
Yup, that's me as well, the series stretches things enough as is with the Gears alone, but then they go an decide to add "Bigger is better" models, which felt like a shameless attempt to get sales at the price of the setting. And tanks with arms, ugh. That book was so full of terrible. And it wasn't just the models, but the rules were bad too. The herohammer KADA, the triple-linked MRPs, the hey, we're the new faction, so we're totally built to utilize the current ruleset, with ECCM on every CGL and other various advantages, while all previous factions adhered to fluff. Oh and their TV was way off in comparison to everyone else at launch, making them essentially unplayable with the other factions. NuCoal was a real FUBAR mess.
Sadly, both of which are intended for players whose interest coincides with a "mecha-oriented" take on the setting. Which leaves me out, again .....
I don't know what you mean when you say 'mecha-oriented'.
* Real life and real war involves more than a little mud and blood, lightened occasionally by outbreaks of gallows humor or tension driven antics. Whatever amount of grit the HG setting had in this area is long since gone.
* Combat is about making the first, best, attack. This obviously has to be changed and balanced significantly to make a tabletop wargame fun enough to play repeatedly, but should not be an acceptable compromise in the fiction. Fair play is one side not wanting to walk away alive, instead of being merciful as allowable to hostile survivors after one side wins. HG has chosen to only rarely reference war to the knife, and even then just in passing.
* In conflicts it's the faceless ranks fighting small actions no one else will ever truly care about beyond the few of either side who were there in the moment that enable a resolution. History is instead about the decisions made by a chosen few visible to the populace for whatever reason, who essentially take credit for the actions of others, when most of time they merely provided directions and/or resources. But again, this is almost never what any HG story is like.
* Putting aside for the moment a dubious need for "arena" vehicle bloodsports, the only non-weapon systems that should exist if the setting includes viable anthropomorphic and non-anthropomorphic combat walkers are perhaps basic vibro-blades, chainswords, spike guns, and chassis reinforcement. Things best able to be used as efficient light engineering tools that also prevent damage to the machine(s) when carrying out those kinds of tasks, just like on any other vehicle type. Actual use as a vehicular weapon should be extremely rare actions of utter desperation, not a viable choice on a ranged battlefield that is supposedly highly lethal due to every machine having it's own very capable computer brain. However, everyone knows mecha-melee will never go away, or even get pared down to this kind of level, for any setting.
* Any vehicle facing more than two to one odds by itself should never be able to win. At best it should hope to end up with a draw and go for causing as much damage as possible in a single attack, or try to withdraw. Outside of a duel, which again is kind of dubious in such a setting, any duelist should be killed just like everyone else when this happens. But "mary-sue" hero figures are always going to be the norm in any setting, otherwise no one would bother with it beyond a small handful.
* One core tenet in the HG setting is that Gears are mass produced IFVs requiring only a single pilot, with interchangeable semi-AI brains of varying personality capability. Although many soldiers of some national origins tend to identify with their vehicle as a fellow solider, it doesn't mean they won't use another of the type they are trained on from the same unit any differently. Much like the Fuchikomas or landmates in manga, the machines should be viewed by a unit as a collateral whole available for usage as needed. But this never happens, it's always a focus on Gears as if they were mini-'mechs or mini-gundams.
* I can actually get behind the concept of child soldiers based on young adults who have to mature faster in a hostile environment given how quickly even "hot" cold wars eat up personnel and materiel. But the angsty part always seems to tag along anyways, I guess just to draw a bigger crowd looking for the T&A + sexual tension manga aspect.
I think I just proved my ideas in this area are too contrary to what the larger community wants to have any affect whatsoever on the matter. And IME, coherent is never going to happen, or be allowed to happen.
Albertorius wrote: I do have hopes for Arkrite. Let's see how it pans out, but at the very least Robert isn't there >_>
But Robert still holds the licensing, so there will be some influence on things he doesn't want to see, or on things he wants to try and sell. And everyone here knows how good he is at figuring out either of those concepts in a useful manner.
BrandonKF wrote: I like the additional foil the New Coalition brings to the world of Heavy Gear.
Don't get me wrong. I don't dislike the idea of the NuCoal. I dislike the implementation we've got.
I haven't seen anything yet in what Jason and Greg have released to make me doubt they won't continue in that same vein either.
Eumerin wrote: Is it related to the religious aspect of the North? I remember a thread on the DP9 forums a while back in which the majority of the posters seemed stunned by the idea that the North wasn't the default "bad guy" in the North vs South conflicts due to its strong religious tendencies. The fact that the South was politically repressive got a shrugged dismissal, as it wasn't seen as a particularly big deal.
In other games it might be something like that, but I think you're vastly over-thinking the situation. It's more that none of TPTB who're left personally play North as their faction. Only Paxton is represented that anyone knows of.
There is also some question as to how smart the folks at the top actually are about things like this, involving either intangible ideas like religion or seeing how badly they self-promote their own ideas. Personally though, I don't assume much anymore that TPTB have that kind of brains when they do even bother to try and think things through.
ferrous wrote: [...] but then they go an decide to add "Bigger is better" models, which felt like a shameless attempt to get sales at the price of the setting. [...] Oh and their TV was way off in comparison to everyone else at launch, making them essentially unplayable with the other factions.
$$$ grab sales is exactly what it is. Notice which models are always getting pushed through the pipeline over at the Pod? Big, one-off showpieces they must know only a handful of folks will buy, that are somehow expected to keep things going just a little longer. All those other models getting passed over, may never see the light of day. Nor may those currently without any art ever get art - because the generalissimo is very, very bad about wanting to pay anyone in anything but product, whether or not the freelancer can make any use of it.
But yeah, they are really bad about the TV thing getting figured correctly to start, and then altering things that shouldn't be so as to make them more viable than something else they don't care about as much. Like say the Scimitar, which should cost more than a Standard Mammoth to around what an Aller goes for - except it got discounted to match the Drake, which is itself probably undercosted. As is the Hussar too most likely, so that people would buy and use it, no matter how poorly they might perform in-game.
_
_
Smilodon, you're talking to somebody who was a real soldier.
Gallows humor I know. Mud and dirt and blood I know. But I also know the extreme boredom that comes with 'real war'. If folks wanted to roleplay 'real war', they would find it comes down more to just staying awake and alert for more hours than you can count, punctuated by a very few moments of stunned astonishment, fear, anger, hatred, and grief, mixed with more shouting and shoving between guys who rub each other the wrong way every single day and can't get away from one another and can't shoot each other, either.
Folks talk about over-sexual comments and whatnot, and all I can think is back when I was 19, and not getting ANY damned thing in the field and over there (some of these guys don't even realize that we could not, and would not, play around with the women over there for very SPECIFIC reasons... think Uniform Code of Military Justice, rape, and Fort Leavenworth, combined with a fear of catching something you'd need to go see the medics about)... Lord God have mercy, they don't know over-sexual. At all.
warboss wrote:In the RPG's "defense", we simply haven't seen enough of any part of it to make much of a determination of where it will go. They may genuinely like much derided things introduced in Blitz like gear striders and the rabbit-like procreation habits of badlanders that caused the massive population boom... or they're mandated to follow the established fluff to some extent by the license (and pride on the part of DP9 in not admitting that they were wrong). We'll likely never know which is true but we don't even have enough info yet to know if either is.
$$$ grab sales is exactly what it is. Notice which models are always getting pushed through the pipeline over at the Pod? Big, one-off showpieces they must know only a handful of folks will buy, that are somehow expected to keep things going just a little longer. All those other models getting passed over, may never see the light of day. Nor may those currently without any art ever get art - because the generalissimo is very, very bad about wanting to pay anyone in anything but product, whether or not the freelancer can make any use of it.
Bolded for emphasis, and I can confirm this as factual and accurate.
If anyone wondered why DP9 can't attract and/or retain talent to save their life, now you know...
warboss wrote:Brandon, any news on whether the rpg crew will be at gencon and/or if there will be any products for sale by then?
I am unable to say, warboss.
But If you'd like to know, feel free to ask on their blog. They just posted a new little blog here:
warboss wrote:Does anyone know what exactly the Welcome in the Jungle RPG product will be? It is just an adventure for the old ruleset or will it contain the new version of the rules in some basic form ala the intro adventures for D&D?
Chemical Cutthroat wrote:
warboss wrote: Does anyone know what exactly the Welcome in the Jungle RPG product will be? It is just an adventure for the old ruleset or will it contain the new version of the rules in some basic form ala the intro adventures for D&D?
For the uninitiated like myself, where would be the best place to find ANY info on the RPG? I hear a thing or two in passing, but nothing concrete.
warboss gave a good answer. DriveThruRPG's scans are a bit low-grade, but they're passable if you don't mind them.
As far as what Rumble in the Jungle is, I cannot say exactly, since I'm not working on that. Mr. Wong and Mr. O'Connor are, and God bless them in it.
Toward that end:
I have an announcement of my own for my Heavy Gear: Thunder Run blog.
You may find the link to the new Heavy Gear: Thunder Run 2.0 rules here:
So, the first edition of my rules for Heavy Gear: Thunder Run is now two years old. With the passing of time, a lot has begun to change.
The current alpha version of Dream Pod 9’s Heavy Gear Blitz version 5.0 has been steadily approaching its beta form.
Corvus Belli has finally leaked that their Infinity version 3.0 rules are soon to be delivered to the world.
Where does that leave me?
Hacking the old Infinity rules and plugging them into Heavy Gear: Thunder Run.
This was my original intent when I got started, but after I began I promptly abandoned the idea, seeing the vast plethora of war machines that are in the repertoire of Terra Nova, Earth, and the other planets. I also didn’t even know if I could do it.
Well, you only live once, so I’m revisiting the original idea.
Below you will find the compilation. Every Heavy Gear, strider, APC, IFV, and tank {carro de combate, right Corvus Belli? } will be given an Infinity profile, with a few distinct changes to accommodate Heavy Gear’s unique style.
Hopefully for Infinity players, this will be like revisiting an old friend who just worked out a bit.
For Heavy Gear (and you newcomer) players, if you need references, please aim your cursors to Corvus Belli’s Infinity page and download the free rules for Infinity 2.0 and Human Sphere.
When I approached the idea previously with a few rather wise individuals, they did point out that Infinity operates at a personnel-scale while Heavy Gear operates on a vehicular-scale.
They are absolutely right.
So I cannot say that everything here will work as well as I want it to. Hopefully though those who see these rules will give them a going over and share their experiences with me (selfish of me, but I do love reading battle reports and looking at great pictures of friends enjoying themselves).
Whatever needs revision or work, please do let me know. I welcome and relish the feedback.
Rules……..page 2
Northern Army Creation and Gears……..Page 9
Southern Army Creation and Gears………Page 21
Riveran Army Creation and Gears…….Page 32
Weapons…….Page 44"
Smilodon_UP wrote: Sadly, both of which are intended for players whose interest coincides with a "mecha-oriented" take on the setting. Which leaves me out, again .....
I don't know what you mean when you say 'mecha-oriented'.
Whatever amount of grit the HG setting had in this area is long since gone.
HG has chosen to only rarely reference war to the knife, and even then just in passing.
But again, this is almost never what any HG story is like.
However, everyone knows mecha-melee will never go away, or even get pared down to this kind of level, for any setting.
But "mary-sue" hero figures are always going to be the norm in any setting, otherwise no one would bother with it beyond a small handful.
But this never happens, it's always a focus on Gears as if they were mini-'mechs or mini-gundams.
But the angsty part always seems to tag along anyways, I guess just to draw a bigger crowd looking for the T&A + sexual tension manga aspect.
Smilodon, you're talking to somebody who was a real soldier.
Gallows humor I know. Mud and dirt and blood I know. But I also know the extreme boredom that comes with 'real war'.
I know that you were, as was I too?
You asked what I felt "mecha oriented" to be, /shrug
BrandonKF wrote: Understood. Though 'mecha' in general has that in part because of 'super-robot' and 'Gundam' more than anything. Though that's my opinion.
I can only say that I hope Arkrite Press will change the mindset and expectations of everyone involved.
Ah, alright, having read those stories you emailed, if it's what you see and how you see it, that is your perspective.
It's your setting, your life experience, and your work man. Good luck on getting more published with Arkrite and/or Aurora.
That is almost exactly what I had been working on the past few days.
Thank you chief. This is going to be a ton of fun.
...I am now going to abuse the work printer because it is my late shift and I'm the only one here. Hi-Hi Laser Jet! Awaaaaaay!
That isn't the end. I haven't gotten into infantry and the rest, Cutthroat. No New Coalition, no CEF, no nothing yet.
But that compliment alone will inspire me to continue on making this ruleset.
Smilodon_UP wrote:
BrandonKF wrote: Understood. Though 'mecha' in general has that in part because of 'super-robot' and 'Gundam' more than anything. Though that's my opinion.
I can only say that I hope Arkrite Press will change the mindset and expectations of everyone involved.
Ah, alright, having read those stories you emailed, if it's what you see and how you see it, that is your perspective.
It's your setting, your life experience, and your work man. Good luck on getting more published with Arkrite and/or Aurora.
...moving on...
What you read has been expanded on, my friend. It will be expanded, grown, and, with any fortune, it will mature. I deeply appreciate it.
Chemical Cutthroat wrote: Well by all means keep it up! And if you need any help or a sounding board for working on something, just shoot me a PM. I'd be happy to lend a hand.
I do in fact wish anybody (and by anybody I mean anybody) who desires to playtest the rules and let me know. If you have a blog, feel free to e-mail it to me at my e-mail.
Or go on Facebook and look me up. I'm Brandon Keith Fero. Or look in my open Facebook Group, Heavy Gear Pictures.
If not there, I'm also on the Dream Pod 9 forums, and I can always respond to comments on my blog or on Google+.
Editing hint: Battle reports are welcomed and very much an enjoyment of mine.
Second edit: Actually, any kind of help is appreciated. So if you see any discrepancies, please let me know.
Smilodon_UP wrote: Yeah, as had been said many times before anything in the setting that doesn't have a "promoter" gets treated in an extremely shoddy manner. Someone commented to me recently that even the North is getting that treatment now, as if it's merely an afterthought the Pod has to keep going just because it's such a big thing in the source material(s) by being an original primary faction.
Is it related to the religious aspect of the North? I remember a thread on the DP9 forums a while back in which the majority of the posters seemed stunned by the idea that the North wasn't the default "bad guy" in the North vs South conflicts due to its strong religious tendencies. The fact that the South was politically repressive got a shrugged dismissal, as it wasn't seen as a particularly big deal. I wouldn't be surprised if the importance of religion in the North, coupled with the fact that the North isn't (contrary to the above expressed idea) a default "bad guy", is a problem for some of the people currently working on the current iteration of the game.
I am not aware of this thread. And being a religious person I would argue against it.
The fact that religion gets used to do evil things shouldn't be reason enough to go 'oh, they're religious, they're bad guys'. It's as much a knee-jerk reaction in my humble opinion as anything else that involves plot lines.
But I won't go into that any further. Suffice to say, in Heavy Gear, everyone can be the bad guy if they wished to be.
I'm not arguing that religion makes you evil. I'm mentioning that there seems to be a knee-jerk reaction among some elements of the fanbase that it does.
The thread that I'm referring to was probably posted back in 2011. I vaguely recall that a new player started the thread, and was asking about fluff-based stuff regarding the North and South. The posts from the players were overwhelming in painting the North in a sinister light due to importance of religion in the North. The South, in contrast, was seen as largely positive since it wasn't dominated by a religion like the North was. The fact that the South has very serious restrictions on political freedoms was seen as not a very big deal.
Not all of the posts were along those lines. But the majority of them were.
Unfortunately, when I went poking through DP9's forums just a bit ago, I couldn't locate the post. But given how long ago it was, that's probably not too surprising.
I'm not arguing that religion makes you evil. I'm mentioning that there seems to be a knee-jerk reaction among some elements of the fanbase that it does.
The thread that I'm referring to was probably posted back in 2011. I vaguely recall that a new player started the thread, and was asking about fluff-based stuff regarding the North and South. The posts from the players were overwhelming in painting the North in a sinister light due to importance of religion in the North. The South, in contrast, was seen as largely positive since it wasn't dominated by a religion like the North was. The fact that the South has very serious restrictions on political freedoms was seen as not a very big deal.
Not all of the posts were along those lines. But the majority of them were.
Unfortunately, when I went poking through DP9's forums just a bit ago, I couldn't locate the post. But given how long ago it was, that's probably not too surprising.
I didn't believe you did argue that religion makes you evil, and if I came off that way I apologize.
Eumerin wrote: The thread that I'm referring to was probably posted back in 2011. I vaguely recall that a new player started the thread, and was asking about fluff-based stuff regarding the North and South. The posts from the players were overwhelming in painting the North in a sinister light due to importance of religion in the North. The South, in contrast, was seen as largely positive since it wasn't dominated by a religion like the North was. The fact that the South has very serious restrictions on political freedoms was seen as not a very big deal.
Les Temoins
HA's indoctrination
Mekong slavery
Oliver Masao
...I think that "nuff said" is apropos. Let's just say that everything in TN is or can be pretty horrible and that there are no real "good guys", and keep it at that.
For me the first introduction to Heavy Gear was the video game back on the PC. I barely remember any of the story, but I sunk a helluva lot of hours into that game. Though eventually I ended up doing the non-Campaign missions where you rank up through either the North or the South, and get to pick you regiment and whatnot.
You will be outnumbered, and outgunned.
Ahhhh... I miss that.
But I didn't really pick up on much of the Bad Guy/Good Guy going on. It was just two sides fighting. And (in my opinion at the time) the South had the cooler looking Gears. And the Legion Noire was pretty BA to an angsty kid.
Les Temoins
HA's indoctrination
Mekong slavery
Oliver Masao
...I think that "nuff said" is apropos. Let's just say that everything in TN is or can be pretty horrible and that there are no real "good guys", and keep it at that.
Because that was the design objective, after all.
Yup. It's ugly all over.
Though there are also lots of bright spots all over as well.
Though there are also lots of bright spots all over as well.
Of course it is ugly all over... everyone is getting a gear strider when updated! *zing* :0
On a brighter note, I started work on my cheetah SECCOM and incidentally found out that I've been pronouncing it wrong for the past year. I was saying SEE COMM instead of SEK COMM as apparently it is short for section commander. At least I was planning on using it correctly as it will be my army commander's gear.
I think using a Cheetah as a command gear is pretty cool. I'm used to everyone wanting to stick a commander in the biggest, tankiest, (safest) thing they can find. Having someone with mobility is a neat idea.
I just got my Southern Black Ops Cadre in last night, so I got a guy assembled how I wanted and ready for primer. That'll happen tonight I hope!
Chemical Cutthroat wrote: I think using a Cheetah as a command gear is pretty cool. I'm used to everyone wanting to stick a commander in the biggest, tankiest, (safest) thing they can find. Having someone with mobility is a neat idea.
I just got my Southern Black Ops Cadre in last night, so I got a guy assembled how I wanted and ready for primer. That'll happen tonight I hope!
In general, there are two schools of thought on the army commander "issue" which boils down to individual playstyle preference. Some folks coming in from the 40k side of things want their commander to be the ultimate I'm in a gear but I'm really a space marine! type commander that beats down everyone with the best gear and the best stats. The game has plenty of options to put army commanders and squad leaders into big gunned gears and tanks so that style has always been supported. I tend to go with the other playstyle in that I want my commander to be efficient at commanding which wasn't really a good option in L&L outside of a recon squad. One of the reasons people thought that Nucoal was too powerful was that each command gear came with ECCM which in general the other TN armies lacked. One thing I would applaud DP9 on army construction-wise is that they've expanded the options to run that style of force with each field guide. In gear regiments, the south got black box iguanas as an option and the north got SECCOM variants.
I expect you'll have alot of success with the black ops squad as they're borderline broken thanks to the poorly thought out stealth rules in HG. A largely invisible chassis gives your opponent a -1 to defense and the snake eye mamba fires a +1 weapon on a +1 chassis. That basically swings the rolls 3 points in your favor. Occasional Stealth 2-3 works well enough in the game given notice to your opponent but anything higher even in one squad or an entire army of stealth 2-3 and your opponent needs to configure his or her army to fight against stealth in order for the game to be fair IMO. In any case, they're cool models and I have a stealth squad myself in my southern army.
I honestly just bought them because they look cool. I love the Mambas, and the Chameleons are cool and sneaky looking. I really like the Honor Guard too... the Fer de Lance looks wicked. But I figured that might be a little too specialized and all.
Knowing me I'll end up getting them eventually anyway since i like the look of em'.
I'm actually planning on using the Thunder Road rules that Brandon came up with. (Thumbed through them last night, and really dig them). Though I'll be using it on a much smaller scale than the knock-down-drag-out fights that it is built for. Think more Spec-Ops skirmish stuff. I plan on doing a little blog on Dakka with the build up to it (keeping track of the Gears my players are working on), and then doing Batreps one things get in motion proper.
Here be the updated rules. I've added some Northern Gears and striders (Mad Dog, Thunderhammer, couple others), as well as some Southern Gears (Salamander, Street Viper), given the Fire Dragon 3 Orders to compliment the Thunderhammer, added a new special rule (Inferior Sensors), and also taken away some of the other and Stencil font for printers. I wanted it to be pretty, but sometimes it's easier just to print off normal font.
There might be some bad spelling, though, since I was using all caps in my eyesight, I didn't really focus on my punctuation while I was writing the tables in Stencil. Hopefully though they are still very readable.
I also started adding in the New Coalition Gears and also got the Fusilier up, as well as some of the weapons that I missed.
Are these using the new edition rules for infinity that they talked about a few months back? I didn't know if they did a preview or put them up yet as I don't follow infinity too closely. I mainly just lurk in the news thread here for model voyeurism.
warboss wrote: Are these using the new edition rules for infinity that they talked about a few months back? I didn't know if they did a preview or put them up yet as I don't follow infinity too closely. I mainly just lurk in the news thread here for model voyeurism.
Afraid not. They haven't even released the 3rd edition yet. I only just heard about it. They came out with 2.0, then Human Sphere, then Campaign: Paradiso. The 3.0 edition will be coming out, but they've been in playtest for awhile, apparently. And they kept it really tightly under wraps.
When it does go live, I'll check it out and see about porting it in. For now I just wanted to get 2.0 and Human Sphere rules put up together for Thunder Run. If I can, I might also look into missions like Campaign Paradiso did, but that'll be difficult. There's also the free mission generation rules they already supply by Veritas, a long-time fan and player whom I have spoken with on the Infinity forums once or twice before.
I'm not arguing that religion makes you evil. I'm mentioning that there seems to be a knee-jerk reaction among some elements of the fanbase that it does.
The thread that I'm referring to was probably posted back in 2011. I vaguely recall that a new player started the thread, and was asking about fluff-based stuff regarding the North and South. The posts from the players were overwhelming in painting the North in a sinister light due to importance of religion in the North. The South, in contrast, was seen as largely positive since it wasn't dominated by a religion like the North was. The fact that the South has very serious restrictions on political freedoms was seen as not a very big deal.
Not all of the posts were along those lines. But the majority of them were.
Unfortunately, when I went poking through DP9's forums just a bit ago, I couldn't locate the post. But given how long ago it was, that's probably not too surprising.
Interesting. I remember back in.... oh geez, has it been that long? Back in the 90s when I first got into Heavy Gear, it was the South who seemed to be more 'evil' as the Southern Republic was seen as a militaristic expansionist league. Of course, both sides had their good points and bad points, but in general, the South was seen as more of the 'bad guys'.
Guess we could make some sort of social commentary about how the general public's views and perceptions have changed over the years.
Of course it is ugly all over... everyone is getting a gear strider when updated! *zing* :0
Yeah, it would be so very nice if while TPTB folks were going about their business of mandating and changing things at whim they also had the ability to add simple numbers, like say correctly figuring out the combat group sub-type TV values to reflect what they did..... and then not making boneheaded cut+paste errors on top of that so as to make it impossible to know what the original numbers should have been....
I'm not even sure if anyone ever got the BD numbers right, because wow, did that get old trying to correct them based on Saleem's most current thoughts on what the "base skill values" should be, because apparently they can't be the same for every primary faction for the same types of combat groups.
I'm not arguing that religion makes you evil. I'm mentioning that there seems to be a knee-jerk reaction among some elements of the fanbase that it does.
Of course, both sides had their good points and bad points, but in general, the South was seen as more of the 'bad guys'.
Given that Canada is an up North country, I wouldn't think they'd be trying to cast the Boreal factions as villains, even if only unconsciously.
Albertorius wrote: - Flag was gorgeous, and made me want to know more about the setting.
ferrous wrote: Of that list, I think only Flag counts, and honestly, because it's trying to be real world, it's missteps made it worse for me.
I started watching, and the "camera personal view" in an animated production is a bit hard to get to grips with, even more so than when it gets done for an actual movie.
As for missteps, one big one so far is that keeping mud out of your cannon barrels is just a little bit important.
Apaches in Desert Storm had trouble with sand in their unsealed, under-slung cannons as it was, so a similar nose-mounted weapon, and gatling to boot, on a ground vehicle is not a very good idea by any stretch of the imagination.
Now I know where the Wolf artwork (unused for North) got [lifted from / created to imitate] too, as it seems TPTB at the Pod are really going all out to not even be slightly original anymore.
Eventually though I imagine the Pod will try and use the mecha from HGA along with anything else that strikes their fancy for whatever happens with the Beta, so I guess it doesn't really matter.
To each their own. /shrug But I'm done bothering with posting this kind of thing on their forums, as there is far too much of the "love it all unconditionally, or leave it" ethos anymore.
I had my fill of that with Battletech even before I was online, and ever since as well on any forum it gets mentioned.
Flames of War is nearly as bad from what I've seen so far too.
Love it or leave it is a pretty damn silly philosophy.
Albertorius wrote: That said, there has truly been a dearth of really great mecha anime shows in the last years, particularly of the more "real" side of the axis.
Seems to be very true from what I've sampled of late and over the past few years, and not just for robots.
Whenever I want to watch a really good storyline in an animated movie I borrow Porco Rosso and Castle in the Sky from my niece and nephew, which were Xmas gifts to them several years ago.
Albertorius wrote: That said, there has truly been a dearth of really great mecha anime shows in the last years, particularly of the more "real" side of the axis.
Seems to be very true from what I've sampled of late and over the past few years, and not just for robots.
Whenever I want to watch a really good storyline in an animated movie I borrow Porco Rosso and Castle in the Sky from my niece and nephew, which were Xmas gifts to them several years ago.
Hm, can't say I particularly agree, there's been some really, really good stuff in these last years, though maybe just not to your liking.
Of course, Miyakazi is still on a whole league of his own...
So has anyone tried out the HGA Alpha videogame? If so, are you allowed to talk about it? If so, what are your impressions. I noticed when checking to see if the revised Lion's Wrath was out that apparently the pc game went live some time recently.
warboss wrote: So has anyone tried out the HGA Alpha videogame? If so, are you allowed to talk about it? If so, what are your impressions. I noticed when checking to see if the revised Lion's Wrath was out that apparently the pc game went live some time recently.
Sadly I am not a part of the Alpha. But here's some pictures:
Spoiler:
Spoiler:
WARNING: Put under Spoiler because the images are big.
Huh, is that a Jäger? It looks... well, very exposed ^_^. The rocket pack almost feels like a placeholder, but the LPA (I'm assuming that's what it is) looks nice enough.
It would seem I am now banned forevermore on the Pod forums for posting in a "troll-like" manner and doing a terrible job on the Northern Army List that was saved only by the hard work of Robert and Saleem. (Direct quote on the terrible job saved by hard work part btw, I kid you not.)
"heh, I see AL13N "helped" again, and that the book is now further broken without even noticing all the models that couldn't be swapped for in their respective combat groups. Along with more costing errors on top of the previous ones, as well as many datacards still being wrong. Not to mention a few wrong variant names, again. That all takes real talent. Oh - all those bazookas & MRPs added back in were kind of removed for a reason, but hey, they should still be in every Northern CG and cost +0, right? LMAO"
And apparently I have also been making similarly objectionable posts on Facebook.... which is definitely news to me considering I do not have a FB account.... so absolutely no clue WTF is up with that.
I'm still not sure why he expects me to just smile through this all, and feel sorry for him while simultaneously respecting his position. Just have to see what happens when the usual messages stop flying back and forth.
But on the other hand, for all the talk of focused testing and feedback, your post was the epitome of the kind of useless and snarky half-feedback you see disgruntled players.
If you let that kind of posting get out of hand, it just devolves a community into more of the same, which goes against the very thing you guys wanted.
I know you're angry, but if you let yourself fall into that kind of angry despair, it ends up doing nothing for your cause.
Also it's nice to see someone finally taking the advice and just making your own version of the game instead.
Those HG alpha shots are way early, but they should really consider taking the time to create assets early on that give a better idea to the player how large the gears are. Something to help ground them in the world.
Isn't that recent game, Titanfall, have about the same sized walkers as heavy gear?
@Albertorius, Yep, Jager. They're working with just the skeleton and modular armor plates, trying stuff out, I think. Should be able to get some coverings for those joints soon enough.
And that's actually the light laser cannon or sniper laser cannon, I believe.
The rocket pack they're trying to go for realistic barrel size, I believe.
@Vertrucio, Yeah, Titanfall's a little bit bigger. My post on Facebook was "Titanfall, eat your heart out."
I made a version of Thunder Run rules over a year ago, now I'm just going for Infinity-esque. Two folks have already been very helpful, and the rules are coming together nicely.
Smilodon_UP wrote: It would seem I am now banned forevermore on the Pod forums for posting in a "troll-like" manner and doing a terrible job on the Northern Army List that was saved only by the hard work of Robert and Saleem. (Direct quote on the terrible job saved by hard work part btw, I kid you not.)
[...]
I'm still not sure why he expects me to just smile through this all, and feel sorry for him while simultaneously respecting his position. Just have to see what happens when the usual messages stop flying back and forth.
Well, since you did such a "terrible job", I can only assume that Robert finally removed you from the credits, if only to credit Saleem for his hard work.
Those last words, BTW ? Horrifying. I have seen Saleem's work and the thinking substitute he uses. I would not employ him to do anything.
That being said, you post was not exactly the most diplomatic ever, so Robert deleting it is justified. Of course, it doesn't make the rest of Robert's action ok.
Sorry to see you go from there but as Mrondeau said it might have been better to continue posting critiques in your previous snarky way (i.e. "The MRPs were removed for a reason and costed appropriately... /shrug"). I can't see what you wrote in the thread nor Robert's response that you mentioned (was it a post or a PM?) as it has been deleted but if your quote is accurate then I can't honestly blame them for deleting it. Permaban though is too harsh a punishment though for a single post like that.
Albertorius wrote: Hm, can't say I particularly agree, there's been some really, really good stuff in these last years, though maybe just not to your liking.
Of course, Miyakazi is still on a whole league of his own...
True enough, on what DSL I can get here basically nothing much streams so I can only really see what Flashgot or etc can grab for previews or episodes from wherever.
And the shows are usually so expensive to purchase, with essentially no resale value if you don't like it, that I haven't thought about purchasing any for years now.
But yeah, there is also that low tolerance for "silly" or "does not fit the setting/story" I have anymore compared to most folks.
Vertrucio wrote: But on the other hand, for all the talk of focused testing and feedback, your post was the epitome of the kind of useless and snarky half-feedback you see disgruntled players.
If you let that kind of posting get out of hand, it just devolves a community into more of the same, which goes against the very thing you guys wanted.
I know you're angry, but if you let yourself fall into that kind of angry despair, it ends up doing nothing for your cause.
I would agree with most of that. Continuing to be reasonable though also assumes a few things about the Pod;
* Competence
* Comprehension
* Willingness to listen.
None of which are happening anymore, not even the little amounts that used to occur with others to ride herd on el presidente.
Several of those changes he made to "cover faction flavor that was missed from Locked & Loaded" options were solely to benefit one faction, and at the instigation of one favored player whose voice is heard over everyone else because what he says most times are things Robert wants to hear, and correct only rarely enters the picture. I can tell because that test player kept asking for those exact same things month after month because he couldn't see how the actual changes already gave him most all of it anyways, refusing to countenance even the slightest change to his chosen faction that didn't involve a hefty firepower upgrade or a massive level of points reduction compared to every other in-game faction.
When he didn't get all of those things with each revision of the PDF draft he would repeatedly threaten to quit talking to the other testers, who were trying to explain to him how the changes worked and balanced against the other field guide factions, until he could "talk" to only Robert, Saleem, or the then line-editor because he had spent more, played more, done more, etc etc etc for the Pod. This was coming from someone who tested the book but can't be bothered to check on what is a typo before saying it's a mistake, when just like the guy doing layout he had access to all of the corrected material as handed in.
Which is pretty much the same thing that happened with the developer Saleem and his pet Paxton project, only on a larger scale. They both went running to get what they wanted at the expense of any game balance rather than work for the benefit of everyone else. In the past the Pod's stance was that this is how things are, we changed it for a reason, (maybe) here is why, live with it. Even for things grossly and obviously broken, or that they specifically changed to promote certain miniatures. But with these last two ebooks that has not at all been the case. They still promote some things over others, but have all the direction of a wet rag until it comes to one of their pet ideas. People are getting handed work, which should obviously be directed with a few suggestions and coordination, but it does absolutely no good to give the Pod what they ask for, because they haven't got the first clue as to what they actually want.
I try hard when something happens to reexamine and see what I did wrong, because as with most folks it's usually some sort of operator error or lack of ability. But that isn't the default position of these other folks I mentioned, which is that everyone else is completely incompetent, no matter how wrong they themselves are in actuality.
It's like they didn't work on the exact same project as the rest of us, which just utterly boggles me. Because you really have to wonder when a line states [Swap up to 2 Standard Hunter models for a Standard Jaguar for +15 TV each.] and yet somehow doesn't accomplish the same thing as [Swap any Hunter (Stock) CGL model for a Jaguar (Stock) for +15TV, which becomes the new CGL.] in their view, which gets addedwhile also keeping the original line(s) they say doesn't allow that very same thing....
"I had to add the Jaguar CGL back into the Fire Support Squad for gods sake and to make the Fire Support Squad box set of miniatures legal." (Another lovely direct quote once again, no kidding. Yet this was covered in a conversation with him over New Year day(s), where I explained it directly multiple times. The testers went over the boxes compared to the starting combat group sub-type builds back at the end of October in some depth, but he still basically keeps restating that the group could have done no such thing.)
BrandonKF wrote: I always did have a feeling that the Southern Republic had a minor resemblance to America, with personal freedom being valued above all else.
-Brandon F.
Not really. The US culture strongly values political expression, and that's the one thing that's forbidden in the South.
Regarding the 90s view of the South as the bad guys, I suspect that the view was influenced by the first video game.
While I agree that it is influenced by the 1990's videogame, I'd say the stronger influence on who is the "bad guy" is the obvious parallel between the Southern Republic and the USSR along with the other AST being the TN equivalent of the Warsaw Pact (occupied countries forced into being "allies"). There was no bigger bad guy during that time than what lurked behind the Iron Curtain. That said, I agree that pretty much all TN factions have elements of both good and bad.
BrandonKF wrote: I always did have a feeling that the Southern Republic had a minor resemblance to America, with personal freedom being valued above all else.
-Brandon F.
Not really. The US culture strongly values political expression, and that's the one thing that's forbidden in the South.
Regarding the 90s view of the South as the bad guys, I suspect that the view was influenced by the first video game.
The way I describe it to folks is that the north is like the US with Southern Baptists and corporations gone wild where being PC is king but you ostensibly have political freedom. The south is more like a socially tolerant Soviet Union that is ok with cults and other forms of social slavery as long as the official state apparatus tows the political and military party line.
So, the SRA is basically the soviet union, with Montréal's social scene ?
Evil.
As for Robert, he has never fired someone for being incompetent, or making a blunder, no matter how costly. Yet he changes writers every two years, and hasn't managed to keep a layout artist two books in a row. Go figure ?
I dunno. Does Montreal's social scene include that one Southern city that's completely nudist?
(can't remember the name of the city off the top of my head)
Ashanti ? Well, Ashanti is what people that live in Canada think life on the tropics is like. Not really accurate, but I think we'd all like to spend our holidays there.
warboss wrote: So you're banned, threatened with a permaban on the next infraction (whether real or perceived), or choosing not to ever come back?
Oh, I'm very banned - it happened after I responded to his PM using email, while I was working on a response to his own email that followed up his PM.
Ah, sorry to hear that. Are you going to leave up your player guides?
Yeah, a few folks seem to have made use of it, and it might come in handy for the next "fix" or two or three to try and figure out how things were supposed to work.
HudsonD wrote: As for Robert, he has never fired someone for being incompetent, or making a blunder, no matter how costly. Yet he changes writers every two years, and hasn't managed to keep a layout artist two books in a row. Go figure?
Amazing, isn't it, that the Pod somehow keeps attracting a minute trickle of players.
Although TPTB never do seem to get just why most of those new folks gravitate towards stealth armies or etc etc.
If a brand new player can tell so quickly what things give such a powerful advantage in-game you'd think the people making the game could eventually see it as well.
But I guess not, TPTB's lack of understanding is pretty astonishing really.
warboss wrote: So you're banned, threatened with a permaban on the next infraction (whether real or perceived), or choosing not to ever come back?
Oh, I'm very banned - it happened after I responded to his PM using email, while I was working on a response to his own email that followed up his PM.
Ah, sorry to hear that. Are you going to leave up your player guides?
Yeah, a few folks seem to have made use of it, and it might come in handy for the next "fix" or two or three to try and figure out how things were supposed to work.
That's nice of you and a good idea. For anyone interested, I've finished up a few extra models for my northern army to get them Lion's Wrath (revised) ready. Feel free to click on the link below or my blog link in my sig (MECHABLOG) for pics and details.
mrondeau wrote: Well, since you did such a "terrible job", I can only assume that Robert finally removed you from the credits, if only to credit Saleem for his hard work.
I hadn't checked before, but he didn't change the credits in this last re-release, or at least not as yet. Must have slipped his mind.
These are some of those direct quotes I mentioned before from the generalissimo's "you will be banner" messages, which is rather laughable considering virtually nothing I proposed as an original idea actually made it into the book.
So in effect Robert has blamed both his developer(s) and himself for the execution.... ;
"This is your first an last warning, you did a terrible job on the Northern Army List and only the hard work of myself and Saleem saved it, if I see one more comment about this in the DP9 Forum or Facebook page you will be banned forever."
"I have to let you know this, there were so many problems with the Northern Army List its not funny, if it was not for myself and Saleem’s hard work over the last month to fix a few of the problems the ebook would have needed to be scrapped."
"Problems in the army list included leaving out key options in some of the squads and factions that were there since Locked & Loaded that gave flavor to the factions. When Forged in Fire was done we keep all the important swaps and faction options and add a bunch more options. What you can never seam to realize is that a player with an existing army of miniatures will be very pissed off if you remove a miniature or 2 from it and force him to buy replacements, I had to add the Jaguar CGL back into the Fire Support Squad for gods sake and to make the Fire Support Squad box set of miniatures legal. And for the Tiger fixes I just had to made, the miniature parts include MAC and MRP/9 not a LRP/32 you can’t sell a person a miniature for years and then the army list designer wants to save 5 TV so you have to go by a LRP part and I checked with the spread sheet you adjusted the Tiger Stock down from 47 TV to 40 TV, so 5 TV ain’t that much of a big deal, now is it. And I’m not going to get into all the senseless options that got added.
Thank fully the new edition of Heavy Gear Blitz that we are working on now with reset the game and give us a balanced starting point."
Things solely of my doing that actually ended up in the published book without being vetoed by Saleem or changed by Robert, as best I can recall. Everything else pretty much had to cover a legacy something, or was a directive from either of them that I had to follow;
Spoiler:
* Infantry, Gear, Airmobile, and Special Forces regimental benefits. Primarily this was for how the [Sat Uplink] loadout worked, to save option lines in the combat group listings.
* One loadout per model or variant restriction.
* Putting the shared infantry options into the universal upgrades.
* Skill level restriction for non-veteran and veteran models actually spelled out in full.
* That the sub-type builds in the combat groups didn't share names with each other, or directly copy from other field guides. TPTB are really, really bad about this detail.
* Wildfire variant including multiple previously separate types of equipment swaps, such as [IRP], [MAC], and [MPZ]. Getting the [HPZ] dropped down to [MPZ] in the first place so there wasn't an additional x20 DM weapon on every single model or variant.
* [MPZ] as part of the Arrow [AGM] variant loadout.
* [HPZ] as part of the Assault [snub] model loadout, and as part of the UC (Urban Combat [FGC]) model loadout.
* Spearhead loadout not just being a basic [HAC] swap.
* Fang variant [LBZK] being a loadout of the Strike [MBZK] for certain models.
* Headhunter allowed variants.
* Flak, Stalking, Night, and SECCOM variants or models being based on the Strike Cheetah.
* Silver Cat model having ECCM instead of ECM.
* Thunder Grizzly [Autopilot] and some TV saving changes such as MRP/36 and LGM.
* Similar changes to the Rabid Thunder Grizzly.
* Stalking Jaguar model, and the Flash [SLC] variant being on the Stalking (sniper) models.
* How the "lower-end" Night models actually ended up.
* Mountain loadouts that weren't in NVC 1.
* Saboteur variants adding the SKG (Reloads).
* Storm Hunter Commando variant.
* Ferret Mk 1 Paratrooper model not being called the Flying Squirrel.
* The eventual Wolf light Strider loadouts for models and variants, costed as a counter to the Naga, but deleted completely to add Robert's Facebook inspired Gear-Strider idea.
* Brawler Mammoth having 2xMAAC instead of just 2xMAC.
* Stalling out on not adding an (AE) attack for heavy railguns.
* The Bandit Hunter Klemm and Hunter XMG losing [+Sensors] given that they both carry an MRP pack, which is a combination found on virtually no other model for any Blitz! faction.
* Master Aller, and the model not ending up as a carrier for MAAC sentry drone turrets.
* Changes to the Mad Dog model such as [Reinforced Armor: Front 2] to make it worthwhile.
* Hunter XMG restricted to Wildfire [HIRP] or Assault [SC] variants in the GP so there wasn't MRPs on +ATK models aside from the standard Tiger's low RoF MRP. However, this XMG variant can no longer be taken as [General] because it got put onto the Assault datacard, which is a [Veteran] swap.
* The Arrow Hunter [AGM + MPZ] was supposed to be available as (1) per squadron in any of the sub-types. Instead it's now on the Assault datacard.
* 2iC option line in the Recon squadron.
* Standard Cheetah cost adjustment.
* Cost adjustments to the various Ferret and Weasel type models for their actual performance compared to the pitiful amount the VCS said they should cost.
* Two different [Veteran] option lines in the Strike squadron allowing swaps from either Hunter or Jaguar models to Grizzly and KodiakDestroyer-variants for the best choice of costing, and to balance how other option lines affected the sub-type builds.
* Dragoon squadrons starting with SD Hunters in each of the sub-type builds.
* An option line for Kodiak models in the Dragoon CG.
* Pathifinder [Rifle] loadout to reflect the Recon component - an option which AL13N absolutely hated, so I'm surprised it isn't gone, even though it lets players move existing models around in their force.
* Which infantry platoons had which weapon options.
* How the [Faction Allowed Model Swaps] rule was worded, and that all of the swaps worked and were still appropriate to the factions.
* That the multipurpose and iconic Dragoon combat group type was not affected by the double [Veteran] tax of the later changed [Faction Exclusive Combat Groups] rule.
* [Airdroppable] trait for Sabertooth in the NorGuard Cat's Paws (Ranger) exclusive CG type, now allowed for the UMFA too by a Robert change.
* More down-to-earth loadout(s) for the NorGuard Juggernaut infantry transport Strider from what AL13N and Saleem envisioned, and starting the combat group with the Pathfinder [2xHRF] variant instead of the overly powerful [2xVLFG] standard model.
* [Hammering Heels] rule for NAF.
* Panda-style waist mounted dual-FGCs on the Grizzly Initiate model.
* The NAF faction exclusive combat groups and their ability to get a full platoon of infantry plus (5) Gear models, although the infantry attachment idea was a directive from Saleem to fit with [Hammering Heels].
* Field Armor for Badger models.
* UMFA [Deep Pockets] rule not being a clone of the SRA [Well Funded] rule.
* The UMFA faction exclusive combat groups, although the Ashington Royals (Strider) sub-type was later gutted to accommodate Robert's Facebook inspired Gear-Strider idea. Whose base cost he was unable to add correctly even though it only starts with (3) models.
* The entire Northern Territorial Reserves (NTR) concept, excepting how the [Tenacity] rule ended up, so everything could be in one book unlike each previous field guide.
I hadn't checked before, but he didn't change the credits in this last re-release, or at least not as yet. Must have slipped his mind.
That's probably because he's planning to blame you when the problems come out. After all, neither Saleem nor him can be responsible for any problems, since their work is obviously perfect. All problems in a DP9 product are either unavoidable or caused by an ex-employee.
Always.
mrondeau wrote: That's probably because he's planning to blame you when the problems come out. After all, neither Saleem nor him can be responsible for any problems, since their work is obviously perfect. All problems in a DP9 product are either unavoidable or caused by an ex-employee.
Always.
Yeah, that has definitely become pretty apparent over this Spring and late Winter.
After his two word "YOUR BANNER" message I haven't heard a thing from him.
But there is simply no way he is going to respond to a post that tears apart his rant and raves to show where all of these perceived "problems" were pretty much exclusively of his own doing.
"Now I did a job; and got nothing but trouble since I did it, not to mention more than a few unkind words in regard to my character. So let me make this abundantly clear. I do the job... and then I get paid. Go run your little world."- Mal Reynolds, Firefly
So I'll try and get things back on track slightly.
Heavy Gear was a game I always wanted to play. I bought a bunch of the RPG books. loved the art style. Loved the Mechs.
I'm huge on mini games, and will often play/collect multiple games. My group and I were huge on the idea of Heavy Gear, and we're Canadian so go local game company.
Here's why we tried, but couldn't get into the game.
Alright... I want this game. I gotta play it! I'll grab the starter box.
$60 online (plus shipping), $80 in Canada. Six mechs, the rule book and some dice. Not really a good deal when you compare it to other game starter sets (Dropzone, Flames of War, Dystopian Wars etc etc).
That's not a great value, but man oh man I want to play this game.
Then I find out the rulebook isn't valid anymore...
Then I find out the included mechs literally can't play a game as Blitz uses 5 mech squads, and there's 3 mechs on each side. Wait, how many damn mechs do I need for this?
So why am I buying a starter box?
Alright, screw it. I'll buy the PDF read the rules and figure it out from there.
Read the rules, they honestly look kind of weak. Seems like people will spend a lot of time shooting at each other with nothing happening? Wait, what are these dice I'm supposed to have beside each mech? How many special dice am I going to have to buy? Also, seem overly complicated for little benefit. Watch a gameplay demo. Several shots, literally nothing hits. Okay...
But I still love those mechs. Figure I'll need three squads for a decentish game. Looks like each squad is 250-300 points, and a battle is between 500 and 1000 points. In Canada that's about $100-$150 after tax. Most of the group balks, way to much to simply try a game that has a terrible reputation.
A friend and I decide to still do it. We're going to get the units we need, buy the book. It's about $300 when we're at the store for everything we need.
We look around, seeing everything with a much better price, and more support.
For $300 we left with the Dropzone Commander Starter Box, Dust Tactics Starter Box, and a Malifaux crew each.
More support for those games, better rules IMO and we ended up with far more minis then we would have if we had played Heavy Gear.
If there was ever a game that needed a complete rebuild from scratch it's Heavy Gear. Most people forget it exists. Do a kickstarter maybe? Or a decent starter set? Even if they have to use plastic minis, do it. The goal of a starter set is you give me enough to play a few great games, but wet my appetite for more. 3 mechs a side for a game that requires a minimum of four isn't going to do it for me.
Twelvecarpileup wrote: For $300 we left with the Dropzone Commander Starter Box, Dust Tactics Starter Box, and a Malifaux crew each.
More support for those games, better rules IMO and we ended up with far more minis then we would have if we had played Heavy Gear.
If there was ever a game that needed a complete rebuild from scratch it's Heavy Gear. Most people forget it exists. Do a kickstarter maybe? Or a decent starter set? Even if they have to use plastic minis, do it. The goal of a starter set is you give me enough to play a few great games, but wet my appetite for more.
Yeah, for such a great setting the implementation has been shortsighted and very ugly for most of it's history, especially in the Blitz!-era.
I've got a full set of 2e RPG & Tactical books, and almost all of the Blitz! books as physical copies, along with ~60 pre-Blitz! miniatures for North & South.
But those Gears are not assembled, as no one I know has ever been willing to touch the game. And as you pointed out the title is so unknown that it's all but impossible to unload any of those things you can't use, sometimes even at give-away prices.
After the (2) botched HG Assault kickstarters though I don't know that the DP9 company could get anyone to trust the Heavy Gear name anymore.
Because along with that a bit of quick web research is going to turn up stuff like this thread, or the one over on RPG.net.
Twelvecarpileup wrote: 3 mechs a side for a game that requires a minimum of four isn't going to do it for me.
The original concepts for what got turned into the Alpha ruleset revamp was supposed to allow (3) model units to function as individual teams, with force construction being more open while allowing specialist attachments like tanks and whatnot to be added as single models.
So of course that didn't last long, as now it's all based on "actions" to ensure a minimum number of single action models have to still be purchased, while essentially all that is getting released for new models is rule of cool $$$-grab things as the exact opposite of that process.
But the Pod always chooses to ignore how badly priced their individual models tend to be compared with other games or companies that don't have a monopoly on the production.
Arena would have allowed small teams. Encouraged them, even. But when you spend over half the book talking about running a season, and then completely botch one of the most basic elements of the gameplay - i.e. the salary cap - it's pretty clear that there are some big problems with the rules.
I remember when I finally sat down to figure out how the whole "build a team" thing worked, I ran the numbers... and figured out that I couldn't even outfit an entire team with bricklayers and stay within the salary cap.
There were other things that made me go "Huh?" But the salary cap issue was so obvious...
And the worst of it was that despite multiple forum posts on the subject, the Pod never once even acknowledged the criticism of the cap. Even when the FAQ and Errata was released, there wasn't a single word devoted to the salary cap.
I still dont know how the hell Arena is supposed to be played, and years after the release, the game has not been fixed. Man I wanted that game SO MUCH...
Eumerin wrote: Arena would have allowed small teams. Encouraged them, even. But when you spend over half the book talking about running a season, and then completely botch one of the most basic elements of the gameplay - i.e. the salary cap - it's pretty clear that there are some big problems with the rules.
And the worst of it was that despite multiple forum posts on the subject, the Pod never once even acknowledged the criticism of the cap. Even when the FAQ and Errata was released, there wasn't a single word devoted to the salary cap.
Albertorius wrote: I still dont know how the hell Arena is supposed to be played, and years after the release, the game has not been fixed. Man I wanted that game SO MUCH...
In retrospect I think it's kind of telling that Saleem was one of the primary testers for Arena, which seems to be how he got to be be a developer in the first place.
Twelvecarpileup wrote: We wanted to try the racing one, but have barely heard anything about it... really poor marketing.
The rules can be gotten as a free PDF, but yeah, then you'll need minis again unless y'all try it out with paper counters.
For all the effort the Pod put into it though, as it was essentially the only product they brought out last year and likewise managed to get to GenCon, yes, the marketing aspect has been largely absent once again.
Their DP9 Chatter person vanished pretty quickly too, but did manage to interview, guess who, AL13N... funny how he keeps showing up in everything.
We wanted to try the racing one, but have barely heard anything about it... really poor marketing.
Automatically Appended Next Post: As a side note, I think a skirmish based Heavy Gear game, with decent mechanics could be a home run.
I don't know about that last part. I've come to the conclusion over the last year that DP9 has pretty much pissed away most of the good will they garnered during their heyday of the RPG and the video games with back to back to back to back blunders. With this complaint thread being the second most active independent place to discuss HG on the whole internet (second only to a very long running complaint thread on RPG.net), I don't think there are that many previous players willing to spend yet again and be possibly misled. It seems that most of the time the game is brought up the only people that care to comment about it are ones that have been burned (usually multiple times) in the past by bad decisions made at Dp9. YMMV. In any case, I agree with most of your points made in the earlier larger thread and even made a fair amount of them myself last year in a series of constructive criticism/advice threads (much more optimistic that this thread) over in the grog subforums at dp9. The advice of armchair quarterbacks has always been out in the open and seemingly always ignored; in retrospect, the fans who don't run tabletop gaming businesses seem to have a keener sense of what customers want than those making the decisions.
On a similar note, I asked about the format of the rpg "Rumble in the Jungle" pdf over on the official forums and got an answer. Apparently, the product will NOT look like existing Blitz or previous RPG products from DP9 and instead use the much plainer large font and no embellishment ebook look. As someone who initially was brought into DP9 products specifically because of their revolutionary at the time look (Macross II manuals for the Robotech RPG in the early 1990s), I'm a bit bummed out about that.
I collected a bit of Heavy Gear, but I never stuck with it becuase I liked Lighting Strike better. A very "gundam" feel, with mecha fighting in space. A very good RPG setting, too, which I though helped give life to the miniatures game. I know they have an RPG setting for HG, too, but I just didn't find that world as attractive.
We wanted to try the racing one, but have barely heard anything about it... really poor marketing.
Automatically Appended Next Post: As a side note, I think a skirmish based Heavy Gear game, with decent mechanics could be a home run.
I don't know about that last part.
People are clamoring for a highly customization mech based skirmish game that isn't Battletech. At least a lot of people I know are. And to most casual players, Heavy Gear doesn't have a terrible rep yet... just when you actually decide you want to play the game.
Automatically Appended Next Post: I know I'm essentially saying:
"I would play Heavy Gear if it wasn't Heavy Gear".
Twelvecarpileup wrote: People are clamoring for a highly customization mech based skirmish game that isn't Battletech. At least a lot of people I know are. And to most casual players, Heavy Gear doesn't have a terrible rep yet... just when you actually decide you want to play the game.
Automatically Appended Next Post: I know I'm essentially saying:
"I would play Heavy Gear if it wasn't Heavy Gear".
Well...
Mekton Zero should hopefully be arriving soon. Admittedly Mekton has always been an RPG first and foremost. But the rules are supposed to be getting a decent overhaul. And it's possible that they'll be streamlined enough to adapt into a wargame.
"The most active", I think, is something to say that it's one of the longest running, warboss.
RJVF, twelvecarpile, Eumerin, mdauben, I could use some help with the rules I'm creating. If you're interested.
While I would like to go with 'the 20-30 miniature range' for Thunder Run, I do admit Infinity's 10-order pool limit is attractive for skirmishers, so feel free to check them out and see for yourselves.
And yes, it's a Work-in-Progress, but it's coming along.
Also twelvecarpile, I recently spoke with one player here in Houston who has played the Rally Racing board game and really enjoyed it. It is much more of a 'board game' feel than a tabletop wargame, but it is cheaper to buy in.
warboss, you know I'll always be interested in your opinions. So I'd very much appreciate them in the near future, or even now, with my own little fan-make. I'm still using FiF and TPS to get everything worked on, but there's a lot that needs to be done (obviously).
Ronin_eX, while I know that Caprice is horribly expensive to buy into, my fan-make rules will be giving a lot more 'firepower', in essence, to those undeveloped units. Hopefully maybe your friend will like them when I get them out there.
warboss, you know I'll always be interested in your opinions. So I'd very much appreciate them in the near future, or even now, with my own little fan-make. I'm still using FiF and TPS to get everything worked on, but there's a lot that needs to be done (obviously).
Sure, just post here or PM me (whichever you feel is more appropriate). I haven't ever played infinity so I don't have any expertise on that other than just old fogey general wargaming advice. Are you talking about a blitz build, thunder run, or alpha stuff?
Mekton Zero should hopefully be arriving soon. Admittedly Mekton has always been an RPG first and foremost. But the rules are supposed to be getting a decent overhaul. And it's possible that they'll be streamlined enough to adapt into a wargame.
warboss, you know I'll always be interested in your opinions. So I'd very much appreciate them in the near future, or even now, with my own little fan-make. I'm still using FiF and TPS to get everything worked on, but there's a lot that needs to be done (obviously).
Sure, just post here or PM me (whichever you feel is more appropriate). I haven't ever played infinity so I don't have any expertise on that other than just old fogey general wargaming advice. Are you talking about a blitz build, thunder run, or alpha stuff?
Thunder Run. Here's the latest edition, 2.1c (I'm using letters of the alphabet to keep things from going 3.0 before Infinity 3.0 comes out).
Right now the link is asking me to sign into OneDrive. Soooo maybe a different link?
And for some reason, when you Spoiler images, Dakka doesn't auto-fit. But if you had just posted it normally, Dakka's forum software tends to compress it down so it fits onto the screen without any silly sidescrolling.
Uuuuuusually!
Automatically Appended Next Post: I find that Brandon's ruleset is a really good adaptation for Heavy Gear, and gives it a much faster, violent feel to combat. The Gears are substantially lethal without having to roll dice buckets, and the rules are quick and streamlined.
I'm biased, but Infinity really has the best (sci-fi) skirmish ruleset on the market. (And mini's too but hey... biased!)
The only issue I'm having is that once you get to a force size that is larger than around 15 models, it starts to get cumbersome. But that is because in Infinity, most models move as individuals, with Teams/Groups/Squads being rather limited to one per side. The reason being that these little 'Squads within the Squad' get a whole lot of bonuses that make them incredibly dangerous, in both the active and reactive phases of the game.
(For those of you unfamiliar with the way Infinity works, there's some semi-helpful tutorials online, or check out the Corvis Belli section of Dakka!)
Anyway! If you wanted to run larger battles, with Squads of Gears, there would have to be some adjustments here and there. I'm thinking Gear squads of 3-5. Strider groups of up to 3.
Having max group strength would give bonuses, and as they get picked off, they would gradually lose those bonuses.
Maybe after the group drops below a certain number, they have to take tests to stay in the fight. Unless the Squad Leader is still alive. (Like if they get cut down to 2 or less units).
It'd be interesting since you could throw out the whole Loss of Lieutenant rule for the whole force, making it a much more 'Squad to Squad' sort of combat situation. So if the average Blitz force is 20-35 models, then you'd have around 4-7 Squads on the table.
Now... the issue with that, is that Gears are about... what Space Marine size? Some of the bigger ones are more like Terminators. And then the Striders are even bigger. So you have these large groups that need a lot of terrain when they're moving around, otherwise they'll get eaten alive in ARO.
Soooo... if you were playing with 30 models each side. 60 models total. You'd need a playing field of around... probably a 6ft by 4ft, like a typical 40K game. But with a much smaller model count. You'll still need a lot of terrain, but with a big board, you can have larger 'set pieces'. Mountains, canyons, etc. Big chunky Styrofoam to block line of sight.
And to make things MORE interesting, and more realistic to Heavy Gear's faster-than-mechwarrior nature, you boost the movement range on the Gears when they're using their Wheel/Tread movement systems. Make em' like the motorcycles in Infinity, something blisteringly fast. This will allow a lot of fast, cool maneuvers that could have units zipping along the battlefield, changing up position and flanking and doing all sorts of cool stuff.
But when they were in this zippy-fast-mode, they'd have to disengage it before moving into/through cover, otherwise they'd have to make Physical checks or become immobilized or stunned for a turn, or possibly take damage. To benefit though, and give them a bit of survivability, is that when the Wheels are engaged, they get the ODD special rule, making them harder to hit. But they would also take a penalty for making attacks as well. I'd have to work on the balance of it... maybe making weapons Burst 1, and Burst 1 weapons requiring a stable platform to fire on accurately, so they wouldn't be able to do a drive-by with a Snub Cannon... they'd have to get back to their feet in order to be accurate?
I'm rubbish at balance, that's what game designers are for.
Twelvecarpileup wrote: I know I'm essentially saying: "I would play Heavy Gear if it wasn't Heavy Gear".
That seems to be a pretty common lament in my experience once I tried to get into gaming HG on the tabletop instead of just playing the first PC game years back.
And the Pod is definitely not an entity that can change that; signed copies of a temporary Beta rulebook looks a tad like pure hubris when the company cannot get a previous product right after two prior attempts plus the original release.
What are they going to do if nobody buys those signed copies, say that situation never happened? It's dicey IME when they're already running along the edge.
I've kicked around some ideas for a ruleset for this or that game I liked on and off in past years, but never took them anywhere.
* Given the reception to other ideas I've tossed out into the tiny pool of HG readers [or insert other setting of interest here] beyond a very small handful of folks, if even that, most of the time it's pretty pointless to get creative with your own thing. Kris probably has the right idea to go with remaking another ruleset to work as best it can with the setting, as the other attempts I've seen didn't have that kind of popularity boost to garner much any attention so they could be hammered into a polished final whole even if they had good concepts in their own right.
* My math skills don't extend to statistics, so I would have to bother other folks for that, and they already have a lot on their plate with family, friends, their own gaming things, and etc etc. For the most part I just answer questions on things I'm reasonably sure about or know where to look up, and offer comments on something else if asked.
* The vast majority of robot wargame players want a ruleset that allows them to poke or slice another model with swords and axes, which doesn't always work very well in the same game with computer assisted ranged weaponry unless deliberately structured to allow viable melee combat. I personally think mecha melee is stupid as hell, but it is what people want - so in reality any ruleset that doesn't allow or cater to it is doomed.
Sigh.. as if I needed another reason not to like Blood Debt... Paxton just stole the wolf strider apparently as it is now a Paxton Hyena. But, hey, look on the bright side! The north gets another stupid gear strider and a ridiculously slow pregnant heavy strider... wait... that's not so bright. The wolf was the only new northern model I was genuinely excited about. :(
@Smilodon_UP - Yeah, which is why I find Infinity's methods of Melee combat seem to work well. It's primarily a shooting game, which isn't to say melee doesn't happen... but when it does happen it tends to be short and terribly brutal.
I think that, given the setting, 95% of the combat should be ranged. Even if you turn the corner and there's a dude in front of you, you should pull the trigger and blow him away instead of rushing out to smack him with your sword/hatchet/whatever.
That being said, there should still be rules for Melee for sure. If your Gear is reloading and gets jumped. Or if you're desperate and out of ammo, or all sorts of things. It can certainly make for tense gameplay!
I think it is like the first jet fighters. You may use Missiles for almost all the fights, but you never want to discount having the good ole' guns in case a dogfight breaks out.
RJVF wrote: I have decided I am simply going to houserule solutions to problems in Blitz until a clean playing ruleset is developed, and ignore Alpha/Beta/v5.
And likely just keep using the old North army lists bc I own enough HGB stuff to play with.
Seems about the only workable choice really.
I tried to make combat groups like the HMA or Cat's Paws able to reflect the NorGuard Army List Book using the option lines, but for most others it got completely lost by having to cover L&L legacy in combination with the contrary source materials or directives from TPTB.
warboss wrote: Sigh.. as if I needed another reason not to like Blood Debt... Paxton just stole the wolf strider apparently as it is now a Paxton Hyena. The wolf was the only new northern model I was genuinely excited about. :(
I didn't bother to download it, but geez, what a classy way to reuse art because the Pod can't get anyone to make new art for when it gets left out of their products months and months later.
Did TPTB use the Wolf loadouts, or the [Jackal/Bison/Hyena/whatever the hell they name it next re-tweak] model's own loadouts?
Because the spindly "Flag anime inspired" thing used for the Wolf does not at all look like how tough the Bison was to take down in test games, even after it lost the AMS trait.
Kind of silly as well how the Red Bull suddenly grew to accommodate bigger guns and more missiles so Paxton can copy or exceed what everyone else gets along with their own freebies.
And less than amusing that no one at the Pod can see how damning that kind of bald-faced favoritism is to their already shattered reputation when done time and time again without pause.
At least for those that have actually heard of the setting....
You're not the only one I remember saying they wanted to use the Wolf, and as I recall AL13N was very excited to get a Naga equivalent.
Oddly enough not a peep since from him, and probably not even after this reuse either.
Though he didn't reply to my emailing him the most current before release materials either.
/shrug, doesn't matter at all in the end. His head is so far up the generalissimo's ass that I can't imagine how Saleem even has room to breathe anymore.
Admittedly I had no liking for the Wolf, but I worked on it just the same as everything else to be objective, no matter how silly I considered some idea or another.
But y'all read on the last page, or this entire thread really, how well that worked out for myself and others.
I noticed last night that the MammothCG is still called the "Heavy Strider" squad even though the Light Strider CG got killed for the Gear-Strider CG.
However Light Strider is still listed for NTR as well, and PRDF used on the marketing blurb introductory page.
warboss, you know I'll always be interested in your opinions. So I'd very much appreciate them in the near future, or even now, with my own little fan-make. I'm still using FiF and TPS to get everything worked on, but there's a lot that needs to be done (obviously).
Sure, just post here or PM me (whichever you feel is more appropriate). I haven't ever played infinity so I don't have any expertise on that other than just old fogey general wargaming advice. Are you talking about a blitz build, thunder run, or alpha stuff?
Thunder Run. Here's the latest edition, 2.1c (I'm using letters of the alphabet to keep things from going 3.0 before Infinity 3.0 comes out).
Thanks. It'll take me a bit to digest it all as I'm not infinity proficient. Do you need a working knowledge of infinity's core rules to understand the HG conversion?
You're not the only one I remember saying they wanted to use the Wolf, and as I recall AL13N was very excited to get a Naga equivalent. Oddly enough not a peep since from him, and probably not even after this reuse either. Though he didn't reply to my emailing him the most current before release materials either. /shrug, doesn't matter at all in the end. His head is so far up the generalissimo's ass that I can't imagine how Saleem even has room to breathe anymore.
Admittedly I had no liking for the Wolf, but I worked on it just the same as everything else to be objective, no matter how silly I considered some idea or another. But y'all read on the last page, or this entire thread really, how well that worked out for myself and others.
_
_
I'm a simple guy. I like to use my existing minis and I like to buy cool looking ones; the wolf would have fallen into that latter category. Oh well... the change probably saved me $80 for the pair of resin models I would have needed (judging from the wolf/hyena fluff putting it between the coyote and red bull in size and therefore likely resin $$). I'll have to take a look tomorrow and see if the loadouts changed after playtesting ended with the switch of books it was used in.
Alien obliquely referenced the lack of the wolf when the north pdf came out and said he emailed Robert (ring any bells?). His follow up post said that he was satisfied with the answer he got. /shrug.
Alien obliquely referenced the lack of the wolf when the north pdf came out and said he emailed Robert (ring any bells?). His follow up post said that he was satisfied with the answer he got. /shrug.
Noticed that as well.
Goes to show how with the program he was/is, or whatever the hell else is his deal. He chose to quote the original datacard spreadsheet to justify calling something a typo because he had already built the model way back then, yet managed to keep abreast of the Wolf in the later updates because it gave him something he wanted;
Mark --- Message 72 of 75, Nov 30, 2013 Am I reading crossbow wolf right? It swaps acs for linked mrfs and swaps 2 agm for 2 atm and keeps 2 agms?
Alexander --- Message 73 of 75, Dec 1, 2013 Yes, [2x MRF (Linked) + AGM 2 + ATM 2] is correct. There can be (3) in a Veteran squadron. The swap chain is Standard Wolf model -> Arrow Wolf variant -> Crossbow loadout.
Mark --- Message 74 of 75, Dec 1, 2013 I think the Crossbow Variant will be a new addition to my army! Pretty Cool even if LA2 for each I like it.
Yet folks keep wondering why it's so hard to accomplish much with the testing, or to change the game for the better, when the Pod ensures that these are the kind of folks whose voices drown out everyone else. Especially aggravating is when those folks don't care about legacy anything except for their own force(s), and don't want to hear otherwise. Besides AL13N though this last test group seemed to finally have a lot less of that going on.
Likewise, I would never build a model or whatnot to reflect something in a test environment since it's quite likely to change or disappear altogether, as most anyone who games much anything should know just from casual conversation.
And yeah, this all reminds me of when he kept wanting the Dragoon squadron to be able to match the SRA's all-Fer de Lance exclusive cadre, or that every Northern combat group should have a mix of missiles, grenade launchers, and/or lasers. He didn't really back off of wanting those things until all of the WFPA exclusives matched his army build.
Spoiler:
Mark --- Message 3 of 37, Nov 10, 2013 Dragoon Squadrons All models; ATK:2, DEF:2, EW:2 - CGL model; Ldr:1 LD:2 should be here.
Trip-Wire Squadron 210 TV Rabid Grizzly CGL 2x Hunter 2x Metal Cat No need to have standard metal cat here Metal Cat UC at very least.
Counter-Recon Squadron 235 TV Rabid Grizzly CGL 2x Hunter Pathfinder Lose Pathfinder option all together! That option should be for recon squads. Either Standard Hunters/Rabid Hunters here. 2x Strike Cheetah Strike Cheetah a little much Initiate models such as wildcat hunter or cheetah better fits here.
Firebolt / Anti-Structure Squadron 195 TV Rabid Grizzly CGL 2x Hunter 2x Assault Hunter Arrow Hunters much wiser option still LA 3 weapon but gives the squad for much more flexible options
General Options (swap - give - add – upgrade : any - up) note to self for clarity. - Swap any Rabid Grizzly CGL for a Standard Jaguar or Standard Cheetah model for -15 TV. - Swap any Standard or Pathfinder loadout Hunter for a Rabid Grizzly model for +30 TV each. Lose the Pathfinder option. - Swap any 2 allowed Standard model for a UC variant /Rabid Variant for +5 TV each. Arrow Variant +10TV - Swap either up to 2 Standard Metal Cats for a Cheetah model for +5 TV each, or swap up to 2 Standard Hunters for a Cheetah model for +15 TV each. - Give any allowed Standard model a Pathfinder loadout for +0 TV each. Cut this option all together. Veteran Options - Swap any Standard Metal Cat for a Silver Cat for +10 TV or a Strike Cheetah for +15 TV. No need for strike cheetah in Dragoon Squad. - Swap any Hunter model or variant for a similar Hunter XMG (Stock) or Jaguar for +15 TV. XMGS A+++ - Swap up to 2 Rabid Grizzly variants for a Standard Kodiak for +45 TV each. Kodiak is a Fire Support or Strike Gear no need to have in an Urban type squad. - Swap up to 2 allowed Standard models for their Strike variant for +10 TV each. I believe you can cut this option all together as well. - Give up to 2 Rabid Grizzly variants a Feral loadout for +10 TV each. Option I do agree with.
[Weapons; L/M*AC, L/M/H*RF, FGC, SC, LPA, L/H*GL, RFB, L/M*BZK, L/M*FM, AGM, L/M*RP, HPZ] Notes; See DRG for notes about the combat group & endnotes about the option lines.
Model swaps allowed here by League-specific rules [types]; NG – Rabid Grizzly CGL Lion SECCOM, XMG (Stock) similar (Custom) [~4], → → Metal Cat → Cheetah, Std Hunter → Jaguar, Std Jaguar → Lion [~2]. NAF - Standard Hunter → Metal Cat [~3], Std Metal Cat → Cheetah, Std Jaguar → Tiger [~3] or Lion [~2]. UMFA – Rabid Grizzly → Thunder Grizzly, Jaguar → Sabertooth [~2], Cheetah → Bobcat, Silver Cat → Tattletale, Standard Hunter or Standard Jaguar → similar Tiger, [~4]. WFPA - Standard Metal Cat → Wildcat [~2] or [Vet], Bobcat [~2], Cheetah → SD Hunter [~2], Strike Cheetah → Strike Bobcat, Standard Hunter → Mad Dog, Strike Jaguar → Peacemaker Razorback. [~18 possible model types] [~6 possible loadout types]
Alexander --- Message 5 of 37, Nov 10, 2013 Multiple models carrying multiple missiles in a "lower-end" combat group able to fill out the bulk of a force is completely unfair to every other faction in game - while the cost for the Kodiak both in TV and $$$ means players that do use them aren't all that likely to have much any other comparable models in their army, so it should balance out.
The combination of Kodiak, Grizzly, and Strike Cheetahs can be found in the Northern Army list book.
It actually seems like the LPA (Sniper) is best at killing enemy scouts while backing up friendly scouts. And the Kodiak needed more exposure as well, and can be found now in (2) generic combat groups plus (2) faction exclusive squadrons, and the Knights CG.
Wildcats got left in the GP for players that already had them there or in the Recon from either L&L or RtCE, and to keep some variety. Otherwise they became WFPA-only models found in their exclusive squadrons, of which (2) combat group types can already access the Rabid [LGL] loadout.
If you don't like Pathfinder, uhm, don't use it? It's only allowed in (4) of ~(23) combat groups, while some form of Rabid is in (6) of the lot, (2) of which are WFPA-only, which also got Feral [HGL].
And every CG can't have the exact same range of loadouts or variants swaps. The workup on page 12 of the PDF laying them all out should now be reasonably up to date.
Strike Cheetahs are only in (3) generic combat groups, and one of those is the Airborne. TBH they seem very "Dragoon"-ish, and I'm not sure I understand the objections to them being included. More so since they are legacy from L&L and the source material archived in the Team Dropbox folder.
And [Initiate] models are NAF Knights of Massada only?
Metal Cats - this is a legacy model thing, if players want to use their existing standard Cheetahs and not have to spend TV on the swap to actual Cheetahs. Trip-Wire is basically the Dragoon "All Stock" squad.
Removing Assault Hunters in an initial sub-type of the combat group would mean needing another option line so that XMGs and Jaguars could get that variant, instead of simply swapping same for same. Less option lines is generally better, because it means less things that can be either rules lawyered or cause unintended problems when combined into a force with other combat group types.
If anything is unclear, I tried to cover why something is worded a certain way in the notes attached to the end of the PDF, which can be directly found by clicking the page link in the "Notes" line.
Recon squadrons got LD2: mostly because they make a pretty good Army command group, not needing to work together for -DEF purposes like most other combat groups. Mostly the Recon models spend a game all doing their own thing or supporting other CGs as singles or pairs.
If you ask me the Dragoons as written need a whole new rewrite honestly they are garbage as listed. -- this is previous data I'm used to and grown to like. (Mark)
Part of the issue, and I know they have changed significantly, is they were over-loaded with equipment swaps in L&L, instead of just being a cut-back combination of Recon + GP with a dash of Strike & FS. As is, the goal was to make them function as a backup or spearhead for any of the (4) standard squadron types, without being able to do it as well as those dedicated combat groups.
With them being put to AUX instead of SPEC, they were also rather grossly over-powered for what they needed to do - and cannot be a Strike equivalent in all but name. So no missiles except on the Kodiak. If you look at the PDF's change log, you'll notice getting them into any semblance of anything has been a continual, and painful, process. I fought hard during FiF testing to keep or get *GLs into the MP for most of the reasons you mention, which of course was nixed. I'd really like to not have any CGs get that "pared to nothing" treatment again for any faction.
Pathfinder comes from the Recon mix and is an MP-type loadout, but isn't mandatory except on the pair of Hunters in one sub-type of the combat group, which can still be swapped for Rabid Grizzlies at the same cost. Rabid got moved into the FS and Strike because those squadrons essentially had no AE or stunning capability to speak of, while Dragoons still have UC variants with their HHGs at roughly the same optimal ranges, plus the Rabid's MFMs and LGL or HGL combination. The FS got Rabid for LGL, plus the ABMs on Defender Grizzlies.
Mark --- Message 6 of 37, Nov 10, 2013 Ok below will be my Final inputs until I talk to Robert, Jason and Saleem. At this point it seems like beating a dead horse. I'm trying to make positive steps not to battle it out. If you've read all my previous playtest data you will see that I have been a part of playtesting since Perfect storm again some stuff got ignored and now we have triple linked crap that is impossible to deal with as well Forged in Fire where the Naga is stupid cheap on points and will punch in any things face. The republic Honor Guard well I can talk until I'm blue in the face on that guy only input taken there was that it didn't get 8AGMs rather than the 4 it has now. Oh and it doesn't come with a shield thank god or you would spend an entire game trying to kill just one. I know I take some of the changes personally since I do play north and especially the WFPA it's Not My army but an army which I only play. My play group has known me to only play Dragoons as my core, Thus a push for the WFPA rule to make the Dragoons fall into any slot required to field them. That is the back bone of the WFPA the Dragoons. That and fielding in droves tons and tons of gears. Crazy amounts of cheap gears if they die lets just hope they took someone with them. I rarely ever win with them but its really enjoyable for me and the following are all of my comments pertaining to them which you can do with what you chose.
Rabid Grizzly 2x Stock Hunters 2x Rabid Hunters
Rabid Grizzly 2x Stock Hunters 2x UC Hunters
Rabid Grizzly 2x Stock Hunters 2x Arrow Hunters
This is more of a realistic Dragoon Squad and multiple missiles it is only 6 AGMs total on the two guys. Look at Republic honor guard can easily get 20AGMs in a squad. Take a quick look at the Dragoons in Locked and Loaded you may call it broken I say what ever. There are plenty of squads out there with tons of flexibility, Read Forged in Fire and read Perfect Storm its not unbalance. Also there isn't a need for great amounts of MBZKs or HBZKs at all. I post my opinion on what it should be since I played PL2 and both my Core were Dragoons WFPA Dragoons were core. this crazy nonsense that since its and Aux Choice it should have this and not that ect is just plain nonsense. The idea of the field manual is to make it easier and more friendly to make list not to abandon what players have come to expect entirely. I have 6 jaguars with MBZKs and field them Never. The game is much more enjoyable from a fluff point of view win or lose isn't as important. But your thoughts behind it is to throw L&L out the window and say screw with what the squad was designed to do.
Please note: The easy access to UC/Arrow/Assault/Rabid variants also MACs there is a veteran option to get RFB on strike cheetah but you say toss all that out for MRFs which really doesn't fit in the squad never was even intended in previous editions also note zero MBZKs. There are some line items that can be removed as the LRP HMG is a favorite of mine it still is now just part of the UC variants. As you don't want others to lose the access to models nor do I . Yet you throw out most of the gear that I guarantee that 100% of north players who play dragoons have. I also say the WFPA Exclusive Close attack squad should not have a Rabid Grizzly in the squad. I'm just trying to keep a player base and not alienate players. I for one am one of the biggest followers of the game and contribute tons of time to it will not play it ever again if the north get fethed up and right now it appears to be so. I see the use of new models fine that helps robert and the pod but don't kick out what other have liked. You say you were a southern player yourself look at all the cries about FIF some were bad tons were freaking amazing. Fer De Lance is total bull gak I voiced it in playtest and got ignored fine its not my army 370TV 20AGM on 4 +1FC +1Maneuver Gears. Ignore my input on the north and I will sell my army on ebay its just that simple. I don't ask for everything to be my way just use the damn data. I have way too much money invested in Northern models not to care how this book is written. I've probably given way more hours to the pod than most of the staff and my wife and friends would probably love to see that change. There are plenty of other games out there in which could just as easy be fun because right now this process is bull gak. Who makes all of the crazy ideas? We're not reinventing the wheel just greasing it up so it moves smoother.
I took a quick peek at the stats. The hyena got bigger, much heavier armed and armored, sturdier, and paradoxically faster than the wolf for about 25TV more. Let's just say it gives a Nucoal Fusilier a run for it's money...
Chemical Cutthroat wrote:Right now the link is asking me to sign into OneDrive. Soooo maybe a different link?
And for some reason, when you Spoiler images, Dakka doesn't auto-fit. But if you had just posted it normally, Dakka's forum software tends to compress it down so it fits onto the screen without any silly sidescrolling.
Er, that's what I did with the original and I previewed it, and it covered the entire screen... <_< >_> Did I miss somethin'?
Uuuuuusually!
Ah... Yeah, no go unfortunately here. Preview was gargantuan.
Automatically Appended Next Post: I find that Brandon's ruleset is a really good adaptation for Heavy Gear, and gives it a much faster, violent feel to combat. The Gears are substantially lethal without having to roll dice buckets, and the rules are quick and streamlined.
I'm biased, but Infinity really has the best (sci-fi) skirmish ruleset on the market. (And mini's too but hey... biased!)
The only issue I'm having is that once you get to a force size that is larger than around 15 models, it starts to get cumbersome. But that is because in Infinity, most models move as individuals, with Teams/Groups/Squads being rather limited to one per side. The reason being that these little 'Squads within the Squad' get a whole lot of bonuses that make them incredibly dangerous, in both the active and reactive phases of the game.
(For those of you unfamiliar with the way Infinity works, there's some semi-helpful tutorials online, or check out the Corvis Belli section of Dakka!)
Anyway! If you wanted to run larger battles, with Squads of Gears, there would have to be some adjustments here and there. I'm thinking Gear squads of 3-5. Strider groups of up to 3.
Having max group strength would give bonuses, and as they get picked off, they would gradually lose those bonuses.
Maybe after the group drops below a certain number, they have to take tests to stay in the fight. Unless the Squad Leader is still alive. (Like if they get cut down to 2 or less units).
It'd be interesting since you could throw out the whole Loss of Lieutenant rule for the whole force, making it a much more 'Squad to Squad' sort of combat situation. So if the average Blitz force is 20-35 models, then you'd have around 4-7 Squads on the table.
Now... the issue with that, is that Gears are about... what Space Marine size? Some of the bigger ones are more like Terminators. And then the Striders are even bigger. So you have these large groups that need a lot of terrain when they're moving around, otherwise they'll get eaten alive in ARO.
Soooo... if you were playing with 30 models each side. 60 models total. You'd need a playing field of around... probably a 6ft by 4ft, like a typical 40K game. But with a much smaller model count. You'll still need a lot of terrain, but with a big board, you can have larger 'set pieces'. Mountains, canyons, etc. Big chunky Styrofoam to block line of sight.
And to make things MORE interesting, and more realistic to Heavy Gear's faster-than-mechwarrior nature, you boost the movement range on the Gears when they're using their Wheel/Tread movement systems. Make em' like the motorcycles in Infinity, something blisteringly fast. This will allow a lot of fast, cool maneuvers that could have units zipping along the battlefield, changing up position and flanking and doing all sorts of cool stuff.
But when they were in this zippy-fast-mode, they'd have to disengage it before moving into/through cover, otherwise they'd have to make Physical checks or become immobilized or stunned for a turn, or possibly take damage. To benefit though, and give them a bit of survivability, is that when the Wheels are engaged, they get the ODD special rule, making them harder to hit. But they would also take a penalty for making attacks as well. I'd have to work on the balance of it... maybe making weapons Burst 1, and Burst 1 weapons requiring a stable platform to fire on accurately, so they wouldn't be able to do a drive-by with a Snub Cannon... they'd have to get back to their feet in order to be accurate?
I'm rubbish at balance, that's what game designers are for.
...just food for thought?
No, good food.
solkan (you might know him from the Infinity forums) actually has been giving me great feedback on the Sixth Sense special skill, so I've appended that ONNET-equipped units (read: Heavy Gears) are capable of Dodging the Coordinated Attacks that come from a Forward Observer and Fire Support Stand-By Models.
Basically, for those not familiar with Infinity, any Model in Infinity can attempt to Dodge a Forward Observation. I took that out and instead allow for Models to go into Stand-By (we all know this one). Difference is that just because you're in Stand-By, doesn't mean said Model needs to remain in position. It can move, Shoot, Charge, all that good stuff. It just can't use the weapon system it put in Stand-By. And it waits for a Forward Observer to FO the Model.
Since the Model can't Dodge the FO, though, it does get the Sixth Sense Level 1 (appended a bit due to some minor wording issues in the texts that solkan pointed out), so the pilot can attempt to Dodge however many Stand-By weapons are launched at it as if it were a Coordinated Order (read: he rolls 1 Dodge Reactive Order, the others throw down their dice and sees what shakes out).
Due to this, I might append some of the Rate of Fire I put into some of the weapons (Rocket Pods have anywhere from Burst 3 to Burst 6, which is obscene for an Active BS Skill).
The Junglemower and Peacemaker make their appearances, of course, as the HMG of Heavy Gear. Burst 5, Armor-Piercing. Nasty.
Some of the chassis I have had to modify. Like Chassis Reinforcement. Looks way too much like a doggone Spike Gun. So, make it a Spike Gun. Treat it as a Monofilament Close Combat weapon. Basically, if a Gear hits another Gear with one CC attack - if you're really that good to get that close without dying - the other guy's done, regardless of the number of Wounds he has left.
Smilodon_UP wrote:
* Given the reception to other ideas I've tossed out into the tiny pool of HG readers [or insert other setting of interest here] beyond a very small handful of folks, if even that, most of the time it's pretty pointless to get creative with your own thing. Kris probably has the right idea to go with remaking another ruleset to work as best it can with the setting, as the other attempts I've seen didn't have that kind of popularity boost to garner much any attention so they could be hammered into a polished final whole even if they had good concepts in their own right.
* My math skills don't extend to statistics, so I would have to bother other folks for that, and they already have a lot on their plate with family, friends, their own gaming things, and etc etc. For the most part I just answer questions on things I'm reasonably sure about or know where to look up, and offer comments on something else if asked.
* The vast majority of robot wargame players want a ruleset that allows them to poke or slice another model with swords and axes, which doesn't always work very well in the same game with computer assisted ranged weaponry unless deliberately structured to allow viable melee combat. I personally think mecha melee is stupid as hell, but it is what people want - so in reality any ruleset that doesn't allow or cater to it is doomed._
_
Chemical Cutthroat wrote:@Smilodon_UP - Yeah, which is why I find Infinity's methods of Melee combat seem to work well. It's primarily a shooting game, which isn't to say melee doesn't happen... but when it does happen it tends to be short and terribly brutal.
I think that, given the setting, 95% of the combat should be ranged. Even if you turn the corner and there's a dude in front of you, you should pull the trigger and blow him away instead of rushing out to smack him with your sword/hatchet/whatever.
That being said, there should still be rules for Melee for sure. If your Gear is reloading and gets jumped. Or if you're desperate and out of ammo, or all sorts of things. It can certainly make for tense gameplay!
I think it is like the first jet fighters. You may use Missiles for almost all the fights, but you never want to discount having the good ole' guns in case a dogfight breaks out.
warboss, you know I'll always be interested in your opinions. So I'd very much appreciate them in the near future, or even now, with my own little fan-make. I'm still using FiF and TPS to get everything worked on, but there's a lot that needs to be done (obviously).
Sure, just post here or PM me (whichever you feel is more appropriate). I haven't ever played infinity so I don't have any expertise on that other than just old fogey general wargaming advice. Are you talking about a blitz build, thunder run, or alpha stuff?
Thunder Run. Here's the latest edition, 2.1c (I'm using letters of the alphabet to keep things from going 3.0 before Infinity 3.0 comes out).
Thanks. It'll take me a bit to digest it all as I'm not infinity proficient. Do you need a working knowledge of infinity's core rules to understand the HG conversion?
I'm a simple guy. I like to use my existing minis and I like to buy cool looking ones; the wolf would have fallen into that latter category. Oh well... the change probably saved me $80 for the pair of resin models I would have needed (judging from the wolf/hyena fluff putting it between the coyote and red bull in size and therefore likely resin $$). I'll have to take a look tomorrow and see if the loadouts changed after playtesting ended with the switch of books it was used in.
Alien obliquely referenced the lack of the wolf when the north pdf came out and said he emailed Robert (ring any bells?). His follow up post said that he was satisfied with the answer he got. /shrug.
A working knowledge of Infinity's core rules do help. But Infinity 2.0, Human Sphere, and even the most recent rules that I reference are all free to download on their website.
To be clear, you need three files.
Infinity 2.0 (it's titled en[Rules] under their English downloads), Infinity Human Sphere, and also the third book's rules from Campaign: Paradiso (titled en[NewRules]).
The basic mechanic is simple. Each statistic given to the profile is numbered 1 to 20.
The higher your stat, the better things are. Just like Augments in Blitz 5.0. Except there's a lot greater granularity.
To Shoot, you have to have a Line of Fire (LoF) to the other Model. From the Infinity Wiki: The Line of Fire is an imaginary straight line that runs from the centre of a miniature’s base to an enemy miniature. If there are any obstacles in the way that completely block an enemy miniature from sight, then there is no LoF. Miniatures have a 180-degree field of vision. A target may only be selected by a figure if the miniature can “see” it, at least partially. An enemy model may not be shot at if any object, figure, or scenery element blocks totally the LoF. A miniature must be able to see the target’s head or a body area of equivalent size to be able to fire at him.
In Infinity, the LoF is reciprocal, applying the rule “If I can see you, you can see me”. If a figure can draw LoF to its target, then the target can draw LoF to the figure as well (if it is inside its field of vision).
Hence the reason for AROs. In the Active turn, though, you are given your full Burst with your weapons, so, as Killionaire once said, "It's always your turn, but you want it to be YOUR TURN."
I'm... not really fond of the hyena design. For starters, there's the "every cool toy goes for Paxton" problem, but there is also the fact that... well, even if it is cool looking and all that, I can't help but feel that it doesn't really belong in HG, and particularly in Terra Nova. It looks like it would be much more at home in a Mekton Z book to me, somehow...
Eh, I'm a grognard >_>
EDIT: Brandon, I get a "page not found" error when trying to download your file ^_^
I just decided to delete the whole old folder and upload something new. Here's the new folder. The file should be viewable to anyone who searches for Thunder Run.
BrandonKF wrote: I just decided to delete the whole old folder and upload something new. Here's the new folder. The file should be viewable to anyone who searches for Thunder Run.
Mekton Zero should hopefully be arriving soon. Admittedly Mekton has always been an RPG first and foremost. But the rules are supposed to be getting a decent overhaul. And it's possible that they'll be streamlined enough to adapt into a wargame.
Just a thought.
It's been arriving for almost a year, now ^_^
That's when the kickstarter ended. You've gotta give 'em at least a *little* time to convert that money into finished product!
That's when the kickstarter ended. You've gotta give 'em at least a *little* time to convert that money into finished product!
I already have, you know. This was supposed to be released last december. Six months overdue as of now, and if you believe most of their comments, it's been "right around the corner" the whole six, so...
That said, it appears that one of their illustrators have already sent all his pieces, so it might actually be nearer.
Last post from Robert has certainly cemented the fact that they don't have any kind of actual support for customers at this side of the pond, other than parts replacing I guess.
Well, HG being as expensive as it is, I'm sure that having to buy from their online store will help immensely to gain european customers (or well, customers from anywhere else than USA and Canada I guess).
Not that it's that new a development, of course, given that Wayland has been having a HG sale for quite sometime already... and failing to sell off the remainders.
BrandonKF wrote: I just decided to delete the whole old folder and upload something new. Here's the new folder. The file should be viewable to anyone who searches for Thunder Run.
I gotta say, Frag Cannons sound like a ton of fun now.
Thanks for adjusting the layout. It is much more printer friendly now, and being able to thumb through pages is a lot easier than having to scroll around. Though I now must question your borders, for they seem to have no rhyme or reason for when they switch between colored and black and white.
Otherwise the rules are great, keep up the good work! I'll try and take notes as I play and let you know what I find.
I got the thunder run to download/open on my phone. Is it a good idea to continue using the full squads in the smaller infinity sized model count forces?
warboss wrote: I got the thunder run to download/open on my phone. Is it a good idea to continue using the full squads in the smaller infinity sized model count forces?
For smaller 'Infinity sized' games you don't use them as Squads, but rather as one big squad. If I'm reading the phrasing right.
But I figured if you were running something like that, then you're free to pick and choose from the lists Ala-carte!
I'm not familiar with infinity so you'll have to bear with me. Are gears effectively being treated as normal infinity infantry and striders as tags? I'm just trying to gauge the scope of the game conversion rules without any real basis to start from.
Kinda/sorta. I'd say it's more accurate to think of all the Gears and Vehicles as just different levels of TAG. They have Structure Points and all that, and high Armor ratings. But basically the only difference between TAGs and Infantry in Infinity is the fact that they have Structure Points instead of Wounds.
Otherwise, they all act exactly the same.
Striders are just effectively much larger than Gears, and the increase in Armor, as well as the adjustment in movement speed and the weapons they can equip reflect that.
I think. Brandon will correct me if I'm talking out my arse.
Chemical Cutthroat wrote: Have a good idea what Shields should do yet?
I gotta say, Frag Cannons sound like a ton of fun now.
Thanks for adjusting the layout. It is much more printer friendly now, and being able to thumb through pages is a lot easier than having to scroll around. Though I now must question your borders, for they seem to have no rhyme or reason for when they switch between colored and black and white.
Otherwise the rules are great, keep up the good work! I'll try and take notes as I play and let you know what I find.
I've decided to use Shields as a sort of extra Wound, the same as Field Armor. I might modify this so that it only works for the front 180-degree arc.
I do apologize for the layout. I've been trying to modify the black-and-white as quickly as possible, but I'm also staggering the lists out so that people can see:
A. name of Gear B. The amount of Orders it provides C. the type of Gear it is (note: I added Military Police and a couple new Dragoon models in between for North and South in between 2.1b and 2.1d) D. the profile E. Equipment/Skills/Flaws F. Subtypes
The staggering is meant to make things clearer between them all, but I have posted so many profiles I'm having trouble getting to all of them before I notice something 'off' about a Model profile and decide to fix it.
warboss wrote:I got the thunder run to download/open on my phone. Is it a good idea to continue using the full squads in the smaller infinity sized model count forces?
Chemical Cutthroat wrote:
warboss wrote: I got the thunder run to download/open on my phone. Is it a good idea to continue using the full squads in the smaller infinity sized model count forces?
For smaller 'Infinity sized' games you don't use them as Squads, but rather as one big squad. If I'm reading the phrasing right.
But I figured if you were running something like that, then you're free to pick and choose from the lists Ala-carte!
Within reason, yes, you can choose with 10 orders or less ala-carte. However, in that case I would recommend keeping a point value between 200-250. I'm interested to hear the differences between those 10-order games and the Squad types I've been working on.
Edit: One of the more curious things is the worth of a 2-order/3-order tank or 2-order strider/Gearstrider in comparison to the 1-order Gears. Whether they are overpowering or balanced enough that while their Armor makes them tough to kill, their low Move Skills make them lumbering and easy to outmaneuver.
warboss wrote:I'm not familiar with infinity so you'll have to bear with me. Are gears effectively being treated as normal infinity infantry and striders as tags? I'm just trying to gauge the scope of the game conversion rules without any real basis to start from.
Chemical Cutthroat wrote:Kinda/sorta. I'd say it's more accurate to think of all the Gears and Vehicles as just different levels of TAG. They have Structure Points and all that, and high Armor ratings. But basically the only difference between TAGs and Infantry in Infinity is the fact that they have Structure Points instead of Wounds.
Otherwise, they all act exactly the same.
Striders are just effectively much larger than Gears, and the increase in Armor, as well as the adjustment in movement speed and the weapons they can equip reflect that.
I think. Brandon will correct me if I'm talking out my arse.
No, you're right.
Thunder Run uses the rules for HI and LI for Heavy Gears as far as Movement is concerned. They're all T.A.G.s, naturally, but to keep it simple I've decided not to get into the difference between Structure and Wound points, and just keep it to Wounds.
Likewise, all vehicles (Gears, striders, tanks) make their Dodge rolls at -6 (because that's the T.A.G. standard). The Dodge is PH-based, though, and since tanks are large in PH, I've added the Flaw Inferior Dodge to offset this so that they aren't able to Dodge as well as Gears (would make no sense). I've also given Hyper-Dynamics to Recon and Commando Gears to off-set their capabilities so that they're more capable at Dodging than the more general-purpose troopers.
Are you using any of the link team rules for gear squads? If the multi-order striders or other vehicles are too powerful, that might help from the chatter I read about linked teams. I suspect full 5 man gear squad teams may be too much but smaller 2-3 gear fireteams might work. Again.. the preceeding "advice" is from someone who never played Infinity so take it with more than a bit of salt (and I apologize if you use link teams later on past where I am in the document).
I'm going to experiment with Shields a little bit. I didn't think of the +1 Wound idea, so I'm going to try that in a couple Skirmishes, and then try it as varying levels of Armor (likely just +1 or +2), that only works in the front Arc of the model.
Regarding the Tanks though... I haven't played with any of them yet, as Gears tend to be what everyone is excited/focused on, so the vehicles tend to get left out in the cold. But knowing they have Multiple Orders... I wonder, does this cheapen the movement nerf a bit? Sure the Gears can be a good deal faster, but if a Tank that is 3-3 spends 2 or 3 orders just moving, that can roll up to 18 inches, so they can still get around a bit.
When I start running my players through my Scenarios, I plan on using a lot of tanks for the Enemy Side, since I don't have very many Gear models and need to maximize the opposing forces elsewhere. It'll also be a good way to show the guys who aren't as familiar with the setting how dangerously lethal Tanks can be. Plus it'll help showcase the difference between Gears and Tanks, and how valuable that maneuverability is.
Still going to be a bit before I hit that stage, but I'll definitely have BatReps (with pictures! lotsofpictures) when we do get there.
warboss wrote:Are you using any of the link team rules for gear squads? If the multi-order striders or other vehicles are too powerful, that might help from the chatter I read about linked teams. I suspect full 5 man gear squad teams may be too much but smaller 2-3 gear fireteams might work. Again.. the preceeding "advice" is from someone who never played Infinity so take it with more than a bit of salt (and I apologize if you use link teams later on past where I am in the document).
I am looking into Fire Teams. Believe me, Coordinated Orders are fine and dandy (for starters), but a Link Team/Fire Team makes a big difference for those 1 Order models.
I'm just leery to do it with something as powerful as the Black Mamba. Multispectral Visor 1 with its weapons and BS would make people weep and gnash their teeth.
Chemical Cutthroat wrote:@Brandon - Good to know I'm on the same page!
I'm going to experiment with Shields a little bit. I didn't think of the +1 Wound idea, so I'm going to try that in a couple Skirmishes, and then try it as varying levels of Armor (likely just +1 or +2), that only works in the front Arc of the model.
Regarding the Tanks though... I haven't played with any of them yet, as Gears tend to be what everyone is excited/focused on, so the vehicles tend to get left out in the cold. But knowing they have Multiple Orders... I wonder, does this cheapen the movement nerf a bit? Sure the Gears can be a good deal faster, but if a Tank that is 3-3 spends 2 or 3 orders just moving, that can roll up to 18 inches, so they can still get around a bit.
When I start running my players through my Scenarios, I plan on using a lot of tanks for the Enemy Side, since I don't have very many Gear models and need to maximize the opposing forces elsewhere. It'll also be a good way to show the guys who aren't as familiar with the setting how dangerously lethal Tanks can be. Plus it'll help showcase the difference between Gears and Tanks, and how valuable that maneuverability is.
Still going to be a bit before I hit that stage, but I'll definitely have BatReps (with pictures! lotsofpictures) when we do get there.
Have you checked out the Move Skill for the Fusilier?
That's the de riguer for hovertanks, for now. 8-8 movement. So motorcycles with steroids and big guns.
warboss wrote: Are you using any of the link team rules for gear squads? If the multi-order striders or other vehicles are too powerful, that might help from the chatter I read about linked teams. I suspect full 5 man gear squad teams may be too much but smaller 2-3 gear fireteams might work. Again.. the preceeding "advice" is from someone who never played Infinity so take it with more than a bit of salt (and I apologize if you use link teams later on past where I am in the document).
I think Link Teams are in the works.
What I was sort of proposing is that for larger games, all of the Squads count as Link Teams. They get certain bonuses (because they're linked), but the big deal about Link Teams is that during YOUR Phase (the Active Phase), when you're moving and shooting with the Team, the whole Team doesn't shoot, but you elect a member of the Team to get the bonuses to take its shots. In Infinity, this means you get a higher Ballistic Skill, and you get an extra 'Burst' (shot) to whatever the weapon is, (as long as it isn't a limited ammo weapon like a Panzerfaust, or in the Heavy Gear Rules, a weapon with Limited Ammo).
This means you could take a guy with an HMG, which is normally Burst 4, and now have a Burst 5 weapon with +3 Ballistic Skill. It is incredibly lethal and dangerous.
Or a Rocket Launcher (or a Bazooka in Heavy Gear's Case) and take it up to Burst 2 or 3.
So obviously you aren't firing with all 5 of the Gears that would make up the Team in the Active turn. You just pick a guy to get helped by his buddies and get all sorts of bonuses.
The thing is, during your Opponent's Turn, (your Reactive Phase), any model that crosses Line of Sight with any model in that Link Team, any of those models can react as individuals and fire at their opponent. AND they all get the added bonuses for being in a Link Team!
So... ARO's (The Infinity term for Reacting in your Opponent's Turn), become very punchy if everyone is in a Link Team. So this might need to be adjusted. That said, you could run them as squads, and limit each side to one Squad that is a 'Link Team' (like Veterans or Elites of some sort). That way the Link Team is dangerous and well organized, and the 'Squads' of guys run on Coordinated Orders, which to cut down on a lot of confusion, allows you to spend one order to command a group of similar models to all do the same thing, like "Move - Move" and so on. They'd still act like a Team, but without all the bonuses.
Another thing to note, is that using the Infinity Rules as is, a Link Team of Striders would only be able to get the first Link Team Bonus, which is +1 Burst. Since they are limited to only being in groups of 3. That leaves the Gears to get the other things like +3 BS and Lvl2 Sixth Sense.
Anyway... if my rambling is confusing, here's the link for how Coordinated Orders work.
You need to cover what the models physically look like - but you don't have to lock yourselves into duplicating what the weapons do in HGB!.
Now is the time to give them unique roles or traits that don't overlap so as to make something else useless and never be used in-game.
Duly noted!
The one thing that is cool about Infinity's system is that it uses one big box of rules that all the factions get to pull from. So despite some of the Units looking drastically different, they have similar rules. You very rarely get any faction that has a very specific rule or equipment that nobody else gets, though there may be a handful of things that make it interesting but not gamebreaking.
Its a little harder with the Heavy Gear factions... as there is a lot of overlap with one side having a Gear that is the equivilant of the other sides. But because of certain features you can add certain rules that add character, and sometimes function to units. Like you'll probably have a few Southern units with JungleTerrain. And quite a few Northern units with MountainTerrain. Stuff like that.
The one thing that is cool about Infinity's system is that it uses one big box of rules that all the factions get to pull from. So despite some of the Units looking drastically different, they have similar rules. You very rarely get any faction that has a very specific rule or equipment that nobody else gets, though there may be a handful of things that make it interesting but not gamebreaking.
Sadly enough, that was one of the things I loved about HG back in 2nd edition; every was people, with similar tech level and no "special rules" to artificially diferentiate between them. They did differ in they stuff they got, that informed the thigs they did and the doctrines and tactics they used.
It is an admittedly more 'simple' approach to game balance, but it works! And it makes a lot of sense really. Even in modern day combat, we're all on a relatively even playing field. The USA might do things different than Russia, China, Germany, etc, but in the end a lot of the stuff is pretty much the same. (Gross generalization to those that know about modern combat but comeon' guys don't get all technical).
It keeps things balanced, and you don't have to worry about one Faction being dramatically different than the others. But they all still have their own unique flavor.
BrandonKF wrote:
I am looking into Fire Teams. Believe me, Coordinated Orders are fine and dandy (for starters), but a Link Team/Fire Team makes a big difference for those 1 Order models.
I'm just leery to do it with something as powerful as the Black Mamba. Multispectral Visor 1 with its weapons and BS would make people weep and gnash their teeth.
Good to know! It just seemed like a natural fit although with the detail below that I didn't know about it may be better suited to HG infantry instead.
Chemical Cutthroat wrote:
What I was sort of proposing is that for larger games, all of the Squads count as Link Teams. They get certain bonuses (because they're linked), but the big deal about Link Teams is that during YOUR Phase (the Active Phase), when you're moving and shooting with the Team, the whole Team doesn't shoot, but you elect a member of the Team to get the bonuses to take its shots. In Infinity, this means you get a higher Ballistic Skill, and you get an extra 'Burst' (shot) to whatever the weapon is, (as long as it isn't a limited ammo weapon like a Panzerfaust, or in the Heavy Gear Rules, a weapon with Limited Ammo).
This means you could take a guy with an HMG, which is normally Burst 4, and now have a Burst 5 weapon with +3 Ballistic Skill. It is incredibly lethal and dangerous.
Or a Rocket Launcher (or a Bazooka in Heavy Gear's Case) and take it up to Burst 2 or 3.
So obviously you aren't firing with all 5 of the Gears that would make up the Team in the Active turn. You just pick a guy to get helped by his buddies and get all sorts of bonuses.
The thing is, during your Opponent's Turn, (your Reactive Phase), any model that crosses Line of Sight with any model in that Link Team, any of those models can react as individuals and fire at their opponent. AND they all get the added bonuses for being in a Link Team!
So... ARO's (The Infinity term for Reacting in your Opponent's Turn), become very punchy if everyone is in a Link Team. So this might need to be adjusted. That said, you could run them as squads, and limit each side to one Squad that is a 'Link Team' (like Veterans or Elites of some sort). That way the Link Team is dangerous and well organized, and the 'Squads' of guys run on Coordinated Orders, which to cut down on a lot of confusion, allows you to spend one order to command a group of similar models to all do the same thing, like "Move - Move" and so on. They'd still act like a Team, but without all the bonuses.
Another thing to note, is that using the Infinity Rules as is, a Link Team of Striders would only be able to get the first Link Team Bonus, which is +1 Burst. Since they are limited to only being in groups of 3. That leaves the Gears to get the other things like +3 BS and Lvl2 Sixth Sense.
Anyway... if my rambling is confusing, here's the link for how Coordinated Orders work.
Thanks for the details as I didn't know that only one model gets to act on your turn albeit with bonuses as that doesn't work out well with my idea of how gear squads should act. I was under the incorrect impression that they all acted individually under maybe some sort of coherency distance for one order cost. That might work better for infantry ala the "combined model" squads (and not Infinity infantry). It might also be good to deviate from the strict infinity rules for simplicitythere and possibly always have the "link team" infantry act with one model even on AROs instead of occasionally acting with one and then occasionally reacting with each and every model.
You need to cover what the models physically look like - but you don't have to lock yourselves into duplicating what the weapons do in HGB!.
Now is the time to give them unique roles or traits that don't overlap so as to make something else useless and never be used in-game.
I think this bears repeating as it is important when converting to an incompatible ruleset. Just because something shoots at a +1 or fires twice as fast in blitz doesn't mean it needs to do the exact same thing in a completely different ruleset. This isn't directed at Brandon or his rules but rather I think the general statement above needs stressing for anyone reading the thread and thinking about doing their own total conversion.
@warboss - Yeahman. Coordinated Orders are more in line with what you're thinking. You issue an order to a Squad, and all of them do the same thing. So if I have 5 Gears, and give them an order to Move - Move, all the Gears in that Squad move twice.
The one thing that is cool about Infinity's system is that it uses one big box of rules that all the factions get to pull from. So despite some of the Units looking drastically different, they have similar rules. You very rarely get any faction that has a very specific rule or equipment that nobody else gets, though there may be a handful of things that make it interesting but not gamebreaking.
Sadly enough, that was one of the things I loved about HG back in 2nd edition; every was people, with similar tech level and no "special rules" to artificially diferentiate between them. They did differ in they stuff they got, that informed the thigs they did and the doctrines and tactics they used.
They still are mostly like that. South, North, CEF are mostly differentiated by the equipment they can get. GRELs are unique, but don't really have unique rules, just unique stats. (Infantry + silly armor). Granted the newer books have been mucking that up, and PRDF has always been a special snowflake, with the newer book just adding to that.
The one thing that is cool about Infinity's system is that it uses one big box of rules that all the factions get to pull from. So despite some of the Units looking drastically different, they have similar rules. You very rarely get any faction that has a very specific rule or equipment that nobody else gets, though there may be a handful of things that make it interesting but not gamebreaking.
Sadly enough, that was one of the things I loved about HG back in 2nd edition; every was people, with similar tech level and no "special rules" to artificially diferentiate between them. They did differ in they stuff they got, that informed the thigs they did and the doctrines and tactics they used.
They still are mostly like that. South, North, CEF are mostly differentiated by the equipment they can get. GRELs are unique, but don't really have unique rules, just unique stats. (Infantry + silly armor). Granted the newer books have been mucking that up, and PRDF has always been a special snowflake, with the newer book just adding to that.
Yeah, not really. In the current books, I see the following rules:
North
ENHANCED SINGLE-USE MUNITIONS
DEDICATED TANK HUNTER INITIATIVE - SNUB CANNON UPGRADE
VETERAN LEADERSHIP
MEMBER STATES
TRADE AGREEMENTS
EXPEDITIONARY FORCE
HAMMERING HEELS
NORTHCO INTRIGUE
SHAIAN MANUFACTURING
WARRIORS OF FAITH
BATTLE CHAPLAINS
INITIATES
FANATICAL DEVOTION
DEEP POCKETS
NORTHERN RIVALRIES
AEGIS OF SECURITY
CORPORATE CONTROLLED WARFARE
AWARENESS
CAMARADERIE
INCOMING!
CONSERVANCY
FLEXIBILITY
PRECISION
SYNERGY
FOREFRONT OF BATTLE
MOVE ‘EM OUT!
WESTERN ALIENATION
AIRMOBILE RESERVES
YOUR CLAN IS YOUR FAMILY
NORTHERN TERRITORIAL RESERVES
PATRONAGE
TENACITY
MAKING DO
...you know what? I was going to do all, but that above is already a fuckton of tiny special case rules. feth that noise.
Also, albeit is true that the latest books are worse, this has been brewing for a long time. When I said 2nd didn't have special rules, I meant it. Hell, even the combat groups were mostly suggestions.
Albertorius wrote: In the current books, I see the following rules:
North DEDICATED TANK HUNTER INITIATIVE - SNUB CANNON UPGRADE
MEMBER STATES [NG]
TRADE AGREEMENTS [NG]
EXPEDITIONARY FORCE [NG]
NORTHCO INTRIGUE [NAF]
SHAIAN MANUFACTURING [NAF]
NORTHERN RIVALRIES [UMFA]
CORPORATE CONTROLLED WARFARE [UMFA]
MOVE ‘EM OUT! [WFPA]
WESTERN ALIENATION [WFPA]
AIRMOBILE RESERVES [WFPA]
YOUR CLAN IS YOUR FAMILY [WFPA]
...you know what? I was going to do all, but that above is already a fuckton of tiny special case rules.
And only these had already existed in some form or another in either Hammers of Faith or L&L before Lion's Wrath got processed.
Guess who most all of that excess came from, too, or as a directive to "add something here."
Albertorius wrote: Hell, even the combat groups were mostly suggestions.
I still kind of admire how the SilCore Miniature Rules Book had the combat groups, like how the Leagueless got done in L&L, with the more open but "use these types of models here" format as in the army list books.
I also saw yesterday that the greedy fethers at DP9no longer sell it for free. Do they honestly think someone is going to buy it anymore, problems and all? WTF !
with sarcasm = True: Look, you can't possibly differentiate factions by having different mix of weapons (not different weapon, different proportions of) or different solutions to the same problems. The only way to differentiate factions is to give them all similar but different weapons, different cost and special rules.
mrondeau wrote: Look, you can't possibly differentiate factions by having different mix of weapons (not different weapon, different proportions of) or different solutions to the same problems. The only way to differentiate factions is to give them all similar but different weapons, different cost and special rules.
Wait wait wait wait. You mean you shouldn't have up-teen million weapons? There are several Paxton execs that need to have a work with you.
Hey, Gerritt, are going to Origins? If so, how are things going there? There is a thread over on the official forums talking about people actually playing HG... in the wild!
warboss wrote: Hey, Gerritt, are going to Origins? If so, how are things going there? There is a thread over on the official forums talking about people actually playing HG... in the wild!
I'll swing by Origins to say hello to Oneeye, but that's about it. My enthusiasm for wargaming in general is fairly low right at the moment.
Wait wait wait wait. You mean you shouldn't have up-teen million weapons? There are several Paxton execs that need to have a work with you.
I have been informed that while having an infinite number of weapons is indeed optimal, those should all be indentical weapons. Remember that overpaying is the best way to show solidarity with your fellow Terra-Novans, so cruelly nuked recently !
About the quirk about SMS mode giving Gears Motorcycle-speedsbut less balance; in my opinion I'm not too sure, since it doesn't imbalance a Heavy Gear. In fact it’s supposed to make it a little more stable, since it isn’t jostling all over the place.
As Smilodon rightly pointed out, too, Gears’ targeting computers are advanced. They don’t get knocked down with their own weapons’ recoil, since to them a snub cannon would be the equivalent of shooting a shotgun. And while no human being could rightly balance themselves on roller skates while operating a pump-action Mossberg (and I would seriously ask that no one ever try it), Gears could feasibly do it since their ONNETs are devoted to keeping all the little details covered while the pilot focuses on the big picture (not in the way of BOLOs, mind you, ONNETs aren’t that high in intelligence, but you get the idea).
Heavy Gears have several dozen computers running in them. The Technical Manual 2nd Edition details the different types of computer chips that get used for a single Gear.
Cerachips (the advancement of older silicon chips) are simple, rugged, durable, and can be turned out easily. They go into sensor apparatus, interpret data from the three dozen limb functions that are in a Gear’s skeleton, operate communications, interpret body movement, and also register the fire control ballistic computers for the three or four major weapon systems a Gear might be equipped with. Not only that, but oftentimes they’re customizable, with additional port jacks for engineers and technicians to readily change out new sub-systems as needed. Some boast self-diagnosis as well.
Neural nets (the earlier generation) establish pathways by resembling (in some ways) a human brain. Artificially-grown crystal formations are controlled, and the neural nets operate with a much higher speed and almost no heat in comparison to modern computers. They’re fragile, though, so they tend to be placed in shock-proof cases. These are used as the primary CPU in several computers (of which an armored combat vehicle might have two or three, depending).
The optical neural net is a step beyond the neural net. It stores data and transmits through the interaction of photons along molecular-sized crystal pathways.
I might append the speed of some of the smaller Heavy Gears, though. If nothing else, scout Gears are blistering.
The question of Striders and Tanks being given greater number in Squads is, of course, a question of Orders. Since I’m trying to equate Actions with Orders, that makes it all too easy for a 9-order unit to send one strider in to do massive damage to opponents (the T.A.G. Rambo, super-sized… or possibly tank-sized XD).
One of the reasons that I started out by giving the Fire Dragon only 2 Orders was due to its Total Reaction. The Total Reaction, in this case, represents the third crewmember (usually a small-framed female, from what the rumors say) as a gunner who is completely devoted to hitting targets. He or she doesn’t have to focus on doing anything but shooting. Now, in this version, I have them with 3 Orders and Total Reaction. I’ll need to hear how that fits.
I’ve also changed the Wound statistics in this latest version. Wounds are incredibly powerful in Infinity, and while I want to give some Gears greater survivability, I can’t ignore the fact that the weapon systems are equally powerful. So, I’ve appended with the Valor: Dogged special skill as ‘equipment’, representing thick cockpit armor and emergency medical systems that allow the Gear’s pilot to keep spending Orders for his or her Active turn until the Orders stop being spent on it, or it takes another Wound.
warboss wrote: Hey, Gerritt, are going to Origins? If so, how are things going there? There is a thread over on the official forums talking about people actually playing HG... in the wild!
I'll swing by Origins to say hello to Oneeye, but that's about it. My enthusiasm for wargaming in general is fairly low right at the moment.
Understandable... interacting with DP9 professionally seems to have that effect. Have fun in any case and remind him to take and post pics of the HG games!
I also wanted to address some of the issues about weapons and the Gears that would get left out as far as their utility.
I am attempting to make it so that all Gears have some utility. One of the good points about Infinity is that, regardless of the weapon system (unless I describe it as anti-personnel and not being useful against armor), you have a 5% chance of causing a Wound automatically with a Critical roll (rolling your BS range exactly).
That means even the lowly Autocannon can Wound a heavy tank.
In addition, one of the things is that many of the weapon systems have EXP. When that happens, if the weapon strikes, it forces 3 Armor saves. Thus, a rocket pod that normally couldn't be that destructive could force upwards of 9 Armor saves on a heavy tank (Chemical, Killionaire, do please correct me if I'm misremembering).
One thing I've added with the new P.A.K. units is the GRELs. I've given them the Fury Frenzy. Meaning that once they cause a Wound, they gain an Impetuous order as described in their personnel stats.
Not all units have it. The tanks, in particular, don't, because I figure these will be powerful enough as-is. But let me know what you think.
mrondeau wrote: Well, since you did such a "terrible job", I can only assume that Robert finally removed you from the credits, if only to credit Saleem for his hard work.
I hadn't checked before, but he didn't change the credits in this last re-release, or at least not as yet. Must have slipped his mind.
These are some of those direct quotes I mentioned before from the generalissimo's "you will be banner" messages, which is rather laughable considering virtually nothing I proposed as an original idea actually made it into the book.
So in effect Robert has blamed both his developer(s) and himself for the execution.... ;
"This is your first an last warning, you did a terrible job on the Northern Army List and only the hard work of myself and Saleem saved it, if I see one more comment about this in the DP9 Forum or Facebook page you will be banned forever."
"I have to let you know this, there were so many problems with the Northern Army List its not funny, if it was not for myself and Saleem’s hard work over the last month to fix a few of the problems the ebook would have needed to be scrapped."
"Problems in the army list included leaving out key options in some of the squads and factions that were there since Locked & Loaded that gave flavor to the factions. When Forged in Fire was done we keep all the important swaps and faction options and add a bunch more options. What you can never seam to realize is that a player with an existing army of miniatures will be very pissed off if you remove a miniature or 2 from it and force him to buy replacements, I had to add the Jaguar CGL back into the Fire Support Squad for gods sake and to make the Fire Support Squad box set of miniatures legal. And for the Tiger fixes I just had to made, the miniature parts include MAC and MRP/9 not a LRP/32 you can’t sell a person a miniature for years and then the army list designer wants to save 5 TV so you have to go by a LRP part and I checked with the spread sheet you adjusted the Tiger Stock down from 47 TV to 40 TV, so 5 TV ain’t that much of a big deal, now is it. And I’m not going to get into all the senseless options that got added.
Thank fully the new edition of Heavy Gear Blitz that we are working on now with reset the game and give us a balanced starting point."
Things solely of my doing that actually ended up in the published book without being vetoed by Saleem or changed by Robert, as best I can recall. Everything else pretty much had to cover a legacy something, or was a directive from either of them that I had to follow;
Spoiler:
* Infantry, Gear, Airmobile, and Special Forces regimental benefits. Primarily this was for how the [Sat Uplink] loadout worked, to save option lines in the combat group listings.
* One loadout per model or variant restriction.
* Putting the shared infantry options into the universal upgrades.
* Skill level restriction for non-veteran and veteran models actually spelled out in full.
* That the sub-type builds in the combat groups didn't share names with each other, or directly copy from other field guides. TPTB are really, really bad about this detail.
* Wildfire variant including multiple previously separate types of equipment swaps, such as [IRP], [MAC], and [MPZ]. Getting the [HPZ] dropped down to [MPZ] in the first place so there wasn't an additional x20 DM weapon on every single model or variant.
* [MPZ] as part of the Arrow [AGM] variant loadout.
* [HPZ] as part of the Assault [snub] model loadout, and as part of the UC (Urban Combat [FGC]) model loadout.
* Spearhead loadout not just being a basic [HAC] swap.
* Fang variant [LBZK] being a loadout of the Strike [MBZK] for certain models.
* Headhunter allowed variants.
* Flak, Stalking, Night, and SECCOM variants or models being based on the Strike Cheetah.
* Silver Cat model having ECCM instead of ECM.
* Thunder Grizzly [Autopilot] and some TV saving changes such as MRP/36 and LGM.
* Similar changes to the Rabid Thunder Grizzly.
* Stalking Jaguar model, and the Flash [SLC] variant being on the Stalking (sniper) models.
* How the "lower-end" Night models actually ended up.
* Mountain loadouts that weren't in NVC 1.
* Saboteur variants adding the SKG (Reloads).
* Storm Hunter Commando variant.
* Ferret Mk 1 Paratrooper model not being called the Flying Squirrel.
* The eventual Wolf light Strider loadouts for models and variants, costed as a counter to the Naga, but deleted completely to add Robert's Facebook inspired Gear-Strider idea.
* Brawler Mammoth having 2xMAAC instead of just 2xMAC.
* Stalling out on not adding an (AE) attack for heavy railguns.
* The Bandit Hunter Klemm and Hunter XMG losing [+Sensors] given that they both carry an MRP pack, which is a combination found on virtually no other model for any Blitz! faction.
* Master Aller, and the model not ending up as a carrier for MAAC sentry drone turrets.
* Changes to the Mad Dog model such as [Reinforced Armor: Front 2] to make it worthwhile.
* Hunter XMG restricted to Wildfire [HIRP] or Assault [SC] variants in the GP so there wasn't MRPs on +ATK models aside from the standard Tiger's low RoF MRP. However, this XMG variant can no longer be taken as [General] because it got put onto the Assault datacard, which is a [Veteran] swap.
* The Arrow Hunter [AGM + MPZ] was supposed to be available as (1) per squadron in any of the sub-types. Instead it's now on the Assault datacard.
* 2iC option line in the Recon squadron.
* Standard Cheetah cost adjustment.
* Cost adjustments to the various Ferret and Weasel type models for their actual performance compared to the pitiful amount the VCS said they should cost.
* Two different [Veteran] option lines in the Strike squadron allowing swaps from either Hunter or Jaguar models to Grizzly and KodiakDestroyer-variants for the best choice of costing, and to balance how other option lines affected the sub-type builds.
* Dragoon squadrons starting with SD Hunters in each of the sub-type builds.
* An option line for Kodiak models in the Dragoon CG.
* Pathifinder [Rifle] loadout to reflect the Recon component - an option which AL13N absolutely hated, so I'm surprised it isn't gone, even though it lets players move existing models around in their force.
* Which infantry platoons had which weapon options.
* How the [Faction Allowed Model Swaps] rule was worded, and that all of the swaps worked and were still appropriate to the factions.
* That the multipurpose and iconic Dragoon combat group type was not affected by the double [Veteran] tax of the later changed [Faction Exclusive Combat Groups] rule.
* [Airdroppable] trait for Sabertooth in the NorGuard Cat's Paws (Ranger) exclusive CG type, now allowed for the UMFA too by a Robert change.
* More down-to-earth loadout(s) for the NorGuard Juggernaut infantry transport Strider from what AL13N and Saleem envisioned, and starting the combat group with the Pathfinder [2xHRF] variant instead of the overly powerful [2xVLFG] standard model.
* [Hammering Heels] rule for NAF.
* Panda-style waist mounted dual-FGCs on the Grizzly Initiate model.
* The NAF faction exclusive combat groups and their ability to get a full platoon of infantry plus (5) Gear models, although the infantry attachment idea was a directive from Saleem to fit with [Hammering Heels].
* Field Armor for Badger models.
* UMFA [Deep Pockets] rule not being a clone of the SRA [Well Funded] rule.
* The UMFA faction exclusive combat groups, although the Ashington Royals (Strider) sub-type was later gutted to accommodate Robert's Facebook inspired Gear-Strider idea. Whose base cost he was unable to add correctly even though it only starts with (3) models.
* The entire Northern Territorial Reserves (NTR) concept, excepting how the [Tenacity] rule ended up, so everything could be in one book unlike each previous field guide.
mrondeau wrote: That's probably because he's planning to blame you when the problems come out. After all, neither Saleem nor him can be responsible for any problems, since their work is obviously perfect. All problems in a DP9 product are either unavoidable or caused by an ex-employee.
Always.
Yeah, that has definitely become pretty apparent over this Spring and late Winter.
After his two word "YOUR BANNER" message I haven't heard a thing from him.
But there is simply no way he is going to respond to a post that tears apart his rant and raves to show where all of these perceived "problems" were pretty much exclusively of his own doing.
"Now I did a job; and got nothing but trouble since I did it, not to mention more than a few unkind words in regard to my character. So let me make this abundantly clear. I do the job... and then I get paid. Go run your little world."- Mal Reynolds, Firefly
I also wanted to address some of the issues about weapons and the Gears that would get left out as far as their utility.
I am attempting to make it so that all Gears have some utility. One of the good points about Infinity is that, regardless of the weapon system (unless I describe it as anti-personnel and not being useful against armor), you have a 5% chance of causing a Wound automatically with a Critical roll (rolling your BS range exactly).
That means even the lowly Autocannon can Wound a heavy tank.
In addition, one of the things is that many of the weapon systems have EXP. When that happens, if the weapon strikes, it forces 3 Armor saves. Thus, a rocket pod that normally couldn't be that destructive could force upwards of 9 Armor saves on a heavy tank (Chemical, Killionaire, do please correct me if I'm misremembering).
One thing I've added with the new P.A.K. units is the GRELs. I've given them the Fury Frenzy. Meaning that once they cause a Wound, they gain an Impetuous order as described in their personnel stats.
Not all units have it. The tanks, in particular, don't, because I figure these will be powerful enough as-is. But let me know what you think.
-Brandon F.
That is exactly how EXP works. It is rather nasty, but you don't find too many weapons that use more than 1 or 2 shots of EXP.
I got a bunch of my terrain done, and I'm working on the opposing team. Loooots of work to do.
It is interesting that he keeps bringing up not making armies invalid when that "priority" was no where to be seen when FIF came out and completely screwed over plenty of southern players. Whether that is a refreshing change or convienent scapegoat remains to be seen. In any case, Smilodon put alot of effort into trying to incorporate existing models and collections WITHIN the paramaters and restrictions DP9 set ahead of time.
The worst thing is that invalidating lists, in a controlled manner, is the whole point of redoing an army book!
The previous version was so full of random options that game design, balancing or just having a vague idea of what's actually played was impossible.
You need to nerf what's was undercosted, boost what was overcosted, remove the horrors and streamline the options. You can't do any of that without invalidating lists. If you don't do it now, it will just be harder later.
You have to explain it to the players well in advance, so they can prepare, and you do have to try and limit the damage, but there will be damage. The most important thing is to do it right, and to really define the faction/army identity, so that it's less painful the next time.
mrondeau wrote: The worst thing is that invalidating lists, in a controlled manner, is the whole point of redoing an army book!
The previous version was so full of random options that game design, balancing or just having a vague idea of what's actually played was impossible.
I agree with the conditions that the list to be invalidating must actually need to be invalidated because of rules abuse, unintended interaction, or just plain undercosting... not because someone just felt like making things "different" on a fleeting spur of the moment design idea soon to be abandoned or to forcibly try and sell more models to the players you just screwed over. Both those happened with FIF... what... you're a southern player who spent $20 to buy a blister of sidewinders? I know it used to be a generic upgrade for every league but now it's only usable in groups of 5 for one faction... Sorry.. you can't use them! Vipers? Oh, you play SRA... too bad! Etc. I'm sure Albertorius could entertain us with stories of how the v1.0 FIF pdf affected him as it was worse than my sob story. Northern Mbzk spam would be an example of something that needed changing as long as it still accomodated players who REASONABLY used the mbzk option. I think the pendulum personally swung slightly too far as I disagreed with Smilodon on this issue but I did agree that the days of "any" upgrades to Mbzk had to go.
I think certain rules should've been expected to be invalidated. Like the horribly stupid "MBZKs for Everyone, all the time!" rule. It was dumb at the time it came out, to the point where I can't even fathom what the designer who came up with the rule was thinking. DTHI was another one. Pretty much most of the patch rules.
Invalidating the Sidewinder was stupid. It was a nice little niche model. It was undercosted, I'd totally agree, but it just needed a points adjustment, not a yank from the general purpose squad. (It's actually a pretty decent general purpose model ... if they ever decided to just drop the Jaeger, it would be the best replacement, also looks nice and distinctive when fielded)
I admit I don't think its ballance with the South book but with constant change you can't expect every army to be balanced if thats the case play south vs south or north vs north if you want a true even match.
Wow. Just...
Wow.
And this is from someone who *LIKED* the book (i.e. they gave it four out of five stars).
warboss wrote: I agree with the conditions that the list to be invalidating must actually need to be invalidated because of rules abuse, unintended interaction, or just plain undercosting... not because someone just felt like making things "different" on a fleeting spur of the moment design idea soon to be abandoned or to forcibly try and sell more models to the players you just screwed over. Both those happened with FIF... what... you're a southern player who spent $20 to buy a blister of sidewinders? I know it used to be a generic upgrade for every league but now it's only usable in groups of 5 for one faction... Sorry.. you can't use them! Vipers? Oh, you play SRA... too bad! Etc. I'm sure Albertorius could entertain us with stories of how the v1.0 FIF pdf affected him as it was worse than my sob story. Northern Mbzk spam would be an example of something that needed changing as long as it still accomodated players who REASONABLY used the mbzk option. I think the pendulum personally swung slightly too far as I disagreed with Smilodon on this issue but I did agree that the days of "any" upgrades to Mbzk had to go.
Ah, yeah, good times >_>.
I suddenly was not able to field half the minis I had painted for my MILICIA. I would have needed to buy as many new gears, tanks and striders as the remaining viable painted ones to continue playing with that army (not payloads either. Miniatures). And of course, the shelved miniatures didn't fit all in one army either, so I would have to either shelve them permanently or buy whole new armies to play with them.
And just to rub it in, some of the units I was still allowed to field didn't get the Man upgrades that had been applied to every unit all over the board. Because feth you, that's why. How did I DARE to use fun or characterful models.
So yeah, fun times. It prompted me to leave Blitz completely and return to 2nd edition. Never been happier.
So yeah, fun times. It prompted me to leave Blitz completely and return to 2nd edition. Never been happier.
Has that helped in getting games going? I don't know how big the local playerbase is for you in Heavy Gear. Did other players make the switch or is it more of a moral stand in response to FIF that doesn't have any practical effect?
So yeah, fun times. It prompted me to leave Blitz completely and return to 2nd edition. Never been happier.
Has that helped in getting games going? I don't know how big the local playerbase is for you in Heavy Gear. Did other players make the switch or is it more of a moral stand in response to FIF that doesn't have any practical effect?
Well, the ones I play with (which are to my knoledge the only ones who play here) made the switch with me. We've always been of a more RPing inclination anyway, so it was not such a big deal. If I like something from Blitz, I just stat it up.
I admit I don't think its ballance with the South book but with constant change you can't expect every army to be balanced if thats the case play south vs south or north vs north if you want a true even match.
Wow. Just...
Wow.
And this is from someone who *LIKED* the book (i.e. they gave it four out of five stars).
THE STUPID! IT BURNSSS!
Yeah, in my experience he has always been like that over the past (4) years since joining up.
Done more, played more, etc etc etc. And that his facts are usually wrong never seems to slow him down either.
(Check out his comments even on someone's Youtube video [ http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gBWuv-Zxr4U ] and then compare them to this from testing.)
Plus, he honestly does feel every model of every Southern army is a Blazing Mamba, Brawler Mamba, or FDL.
And that multiple AGM-toting Northern models should be around in most CGs to counter the overpowered Blitz Jäger because it's so widely available.
warboss wrote: It is interesting that he keeps bringing up not making armies invalid when that "priority" was no where to be seen when FIF came out and completely screwed over plenty of southern players.
Albertorius wrote: I suddenly was not able to field half the minis I had painted for my MILICIA. I would have needed to buy as many new gears, tanks and striders as the remaining viable painted ones to continue playing with that army (not payloads either. Miniatures). And of course, the shelved miniatures didn't fit all in one army either, so I would have to either shelve them permanently or buy whole new armies to play with them.
And just to rub it in, some of the units I was still allowed to field didn't get the Man upgrades that had been applied to every unit all over the board. Because feth you, that's why. How did I DARE to use fun or characterful models.
I notice the Pod keeps conveniently forgetting that, or even the most recent trouble(s) with the various incarnations of Paxton.
That the Python never got the MAN upgrade, but the Boa did just because of the faction they chose to assign it to, makes absolutely no sense whatsoever.
Especially since the damn silly Gear-Striders keep getting better and better in regards to their stats.
And look what happened in the Pod's cherished v5Future revamp - many of the same models got short shrift again, or disappeared after only being around a year or so from FiF, while the "shiny" Paxton models and Northern Striders are already getting sculpts and re-sculpts.
Typically enough it looks like the faction sub-lists aren't going to happen either according to Dave's over-ambitious schedule, if at all judging from his message.
His comment about "badpod" is also a little strange, as in does he mean anyone who doesn't like the Lynx is bad?
Chemical Cutthroat wrote: Speaking of, they just revealed the newest unit for the Black Talons on Facebook!
Spoiler:
I swore a solemn oath, years ago, never to touch Facebook, and it's DP9, so I have to ask: Are you joking or are they really adding motorcycles ? If they are really adding motorcycles, are they at least for infantry and not for Gears ?
Chemical Cutthroat wrote: Speaking of, they just revealed the newest unit for the Black Talons on Facebook!
Spoiler:
I swore a solemn oath, years ago, never to touch Facebook, and it's DP9, so I have to ask: Are you joking or are they really adding motorcycles ? If they are really adding motorcycles, are they at least for infantry and not for Gears ?
It is apparently part of a Tank Unit, where if the Tank is destroyed, the BatPod deploys from the Tank, and can continue taking actions.
To gives you an idea of on insane DP9 can be, I'm only 70% certain you(plural) are not serious. And I'm 100% certain that it would happen if one of Robert's favorite asked for it.
mrondeau wrote: To gives you an idea of on insane DP9 can be, I'm only 70% certain you(plural) are not serious. And I'm 100% certain that it would happen if one of Robert's favorite asked for it.
I promise to stop messing with the Canadian.
...not using Facebook I can respect. But have you seen none of the new Batman movies?! Comeon man!
Of course I have seen them. I also have seen DP9 in action. Cool things that don't fit in the HG universe are exactly what Robert's favorites will want.
I believe Brandon is working on Kaiju for the upcoming RPG. Apparently the CEF has decided to abandon hovertanks and instead focus on bringing really big monsters from other conquered worlds to ravage the Badlands. He'll deny it publicly but that is because he is under NDA.
The comment about "badpod" couldn't possibly be a typo meant to say baTpod. Right?
Considering the (T) key is not adjacent to the (D) key, it's either a very extreme example of a typo or a very telling example of an unnoticed typo.
That post was also made about three hours before his next post, not to mention he is a mod able to edit at any time.
But he did finally take the way out that was offered to him as an explanation.
And regarding the Basilisk, that sure doesn't sound good. There are basically very few reasons for the company with a monopoly over their miniature line to make that decision:
* The mold is becoming unusable due to aging or some other factor such as the master being gone like was noted for the Hunter Para, and the Pod cannot afford to replace it.
* The mold is becoming unusable due to aging or some other factor, and the Pod does not wish to replace it.
* The mold is fine but the Pod no longer desires to keep producing a model they made essential to at least one Southern sub-faction and a [Market Share] swap for another barely a year and a half ago.
Basilisk [7]
Standard --- Peacekeeper GP --- LAC, LRP/24, HG, APGL, VB (Standard) --- (City Militia, FS, GP, Light Tank, Recon, Strike) --- Allowed ESEG army swap from standard Jäger or Iguana.
[x] Gunner --- Peacekeeper GP --- MAC --- Allowed for ESEG if legal loadout for swapped model.
Striking [x] --- Peacekeeper GP --- LBZK --- Allowed for ESEG if legal loadout for swapped model.
Swamp [x] --- Peacekeeper GP --- Amphibious
But in the end it amounts to the same thing; TPTB have made a decision to remove a model players already own while throwing out the intimation of a half-assed sop for players that have any of those existing models because that model clearly does not belong in the future "vision" DP9 has for their Heavy Gear setting. Gear-Striders, "Rally" models, and doesn't fit in the setting motorcycles are more important even if only a very few purchase them.
And the Basilisk surely won't be the last to go either given the other "officially relegated to an alternate model" miniatures that have appeared so far in the v5Future ruleset.
I guess time will tell which of the Northern models will get a similar treatment.
mrondeau wrote: To gives you an idea of on insane DP9 can be, I'm only 70% certain you(plural) are not serious. And I'm 100% certain that it would happen if one of Robert's favorite asked for it.
Yeah, folks REALLY need to realize and pay attention to the offhand or sarcastic comments they make here and there, because el presidente treats those as viable ideas to create something he thinks is wanted.
The hunter para master is gone? I guess I'm set with my 4 in that case... not that I plan on frequently using the squad but good to know. I guess giving the utterly ridiculous Detect 14 stat to the silverscale variant didn't help the base model sales much.
In the end, as long as they have *SOME* sort of rule to support existing players, I don't have a big issue with them permanently discontinuing models from the line that just don't sell. If players want them, there are enough 3rd party sellers sitting on stock for YEARS to satisfy the meagre demand. When I last bought unpopular older sculpt minis online from a noted online seller, I got multiple models in a metal mix that DP9 hadn't used for years in the a sculpt variant that they changed years earlier to reduce mould wear.
Smilodon, I would also note that supporting the FIF build isn't a priority since EVERYTHING blitz is being replaced in a few months.
warboss wrote: Smilodon, I would also note that supporting the FIF build isn't a priority since EVERYTHING blitz is being replaced in a few months.
True enough - but beyond the very tiny handful of folks still actively participating in the "open" playtest does anyone really trust in the Pod's competence to make the correct decisions on how to translate over those army lists and not screw everyone completely?
Or decide honestly which miniatures are selling less well than another? Somehow I doubt they will discontinue any of the Gear-Striders even if they sell less overall of them compared to something they don't feel like statting out because it isn't "impressive" enough in pictures or display cases.
Regardless of how many "veteran" players of HG dislike gear striders, they seem to sell. A fair amount of new players just coming into the game with no knowledge of where it has been for decades seem to like the gear striders and buy them. I'm sure the buffed stats and reduced TV they generally get doesn't hurt as well but each of those $50+ purchases is likely replacing a $22 gear model like a Kodiak or King Cobra or even a $35 strider like the Naga that the player otherwise would have bought which ends up with added $$ in the coffers. I can't stand gear striders personally in terms of fluff (they shouldn't exist outside of paxton!), design (they're generally UGLY models!), and game mechanics (they tend to be low on TV and seemingly prevent existing models like Kodiaks and King Cobras from getting additional needed variants)... but that view point isn't shared seemingly by the younglings. YMMV.
As much as I dislike them, they won't stop making them or discontinue their sales nor should they. I just wish that the gear strider development (at DP9 and on Terra Nova in the fluff) wouldn't completely stifle strider and existing large gear expansion. It's a roundabout argument though as I feel that DP9 doesn't have the money/manpower because they're ignoring a segment of their playerbase but at the same time they feel like they need to make the models that make the most money per unit with their limited time/money. Stuff like Lions and Paxton large gears (can't recall the name at the moment) are coming out but the existing ones have been in stasis since 1998 as dead ends. A king cobra HBzk would have been great but that would step on the "uniqueness" of the drake with the same and god forbid take away that sale so we didn't get one. Kodiak variants aren't possible because DP9 doesn't want to spend the $$ to change the mould/master but it's ok to come out with a much more expensive new model that people can't just convert. On the one hand, it makes sense from a business perspective but only because DP9 has screwed the pooch so often so many times in a row over the years and forced themselves into a deep, dark, dead end corner.
As for the playtest, I wish it well. I don't see myself actively participating as I personally would prefer to use the existing Blitz rules albeit with my Flash addendums. I won't be buying anything (models, rules, whatever) until the final version shakes out in the end and even then I may just dip my toes into the pool with a PDF purchase only when DTRPG has it on sale. It's not a boycott in my case as in the past multiple times due to being screwed over by DP9 (which isn't the case IMO this time around) but rather a simple preference.
In the end, the stand is largely academic as I don't actually get many games in regardless with my first HG game since last Autumn this past weekend.
warboss wrote: Regardless of how many "veteran" players of HG dislike gear striders, they seem to sell. A fair amount of new players just coming into the game with no knowledge of where it has been for decades seem to like the gear striders and buy them. I'm sure the buffed stats and reduced TV they generally get doesn't hurt as well but each of those $50+ purchases is likely replacing a $22 gear model like a Kodiak or King Cobra or even a $35 strider like the Naga that the player otherwise would have bought which ends up with added $$ in the coffers. I can't stand gear striders personally in terms of fluff (they shouldn't exist outside of paxton!), design (they're generally UGLY models!), and game mechanics (they tend to be low on TV and seemingly prevent existing models like Kodiaks and King Cobras from getting additional needed variants)... but that view point isn't shared seemingly by the younglings. YMMV.
The irony is that the King Cobra and Kodiak used to fill the same niche, but had gakky stats, I wonder how many first time players they permanently lost when the new player fielded their stupidly expensive both monetarily and in-game TV model, to have it basically do little to nothing. And that was through several iterations before they bothered to patch them into some sort of usefulness. (And again, stupid optional patch rules are all sorts of annoying and rife with problems, it certainly doesn't help anyone who buys a book and never goes to the company website for updates)
Easy E wrote: I was vaguely interested in Heavy Gear..... then I read the angst in this thread and decided against it.
This is seconded, for sure.
First time I stumbled across this thread I was like, "Oh! Heavy Gear! I remember that! Looks fun."
And then getting into the actual reading of said thread is like a downward spiral of depression, sadness, and frustration.
A lot of that is from people upset by the rules changes, mismanagement, etc. None of which I had any idea about.
That said, there's also folks who like the world and are doing something with it, like Warboss' modified ruleset, and Brandon's Gear-Finity write ups. The company may blow, but the models are cool, and the setting is really interesting. So there's nothing stopping those interested from doing their own thing. Otherwise it is a ton of dead-horse-beating.
} will be given an Infinity profile, with a few distinct changes to accommodate Heavy Gear’s unique style.
