Gauss is very valuable, as it allows Necron warriors to expand the list of targets they threaten greatly. Chumpo marines have a very short list of units they threaten *in a meaningful manner*.
God In Action wrote: So it's been pointed that Wraiths don't actually have an especially impressive damage output. Their real strength lies in being a tarpit counter to the opposition's big nasty units. To get to that stage, it will also cost them a lot of points (368 points with 6 wraiths and whip coils in a Harvest).
The solution to a tarpit, is another tarpit. The way to beat it is to find a way to tarpit the wraiths with fewer points and then focus on the rest of the army.
So, what can tarpit the wraiths for fewer than 368 points? (and of course don't forget to kill the Spyder to take the Wraiths down a peg, just as you would kill Markerlights in a Tau force first).
-Carefully placed speed bumps. Sacrifice a cheap infantry squad every other turn or two.
-High toughness MC with an invul save.
-Any unit with a large volume of wounds with an invul save.
And finally, make use of high AV or flyer transports to get your units to where they need to be before the Wraiths can scratch at them.
Most importantly, keep your important unit that the wraiths would want to tarpit out of harm's way in a high AV transport, in a flyer, or in reserves, until your own counter-tarpit has tarpitted the wraiths.
More damn tar pits than La Brea.
Pretty glad that I have 3 Stormravens now. At least my Tacticals get furious charge and heavy flamers so I think we're better off than the standard marine Tacticals for this job.
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Martel732 wrote: Gauss is very valuable, as it allows Necron warriors to expand the list of targets they threaten greatly. Chumpo marines have a very short list of units they threaten *in a meaningful manner*.
True to a certain extent, but remember we have those grenades that are actually S6. Sure we can only throw one in the shooting phase but we get one per model in close combat, albeit at I1.
I don't consider a single S6 Init 1 attack a meaningful threat to any MC. Yeah, they do a number on AV 10 rear armor, but that is also incredibly situational. I keep hearing how krak grenades can bring down Wave Serpents, but all my guys somehow die before they get the chance. Amazing how that works. But I keep hearing about it.
Martel732 wrote: I don't consider a single S6 Init 1 attack a meaningful threat to any MC. Yeah, they do a number on AV 10 rear armor, but that is also incredibly situational.
Initially we'll be wanting furious charge I think, but in subsequent rounds when we're Strength 4 again then it's something at least if it's happens to be a T8 Wraithknight or Daemon Prince with Iron Arm.
Martel732 wrote: I don't consider a single S6 Init 1 attack a meaningful threat to any MC. Yeah, they do a number on AV 10 rear armor, but that is also incredibly situational.
Initially we'll be wanting furious charge I think, but in subsequent rounds when we're Strength 4 again then it's something at least if it's happens to be a T8 Wraithknight or Daemon Prince with Iron Arm.
Furious charge is actually a very weak chapter tactic in practice. I'm still running a mostly shooting list.
Martel732 wrote: I keep hearing how krak grenades can bring down Wave Serpents, but all my guys somehow die before they get the chance. Amazing how that works. But I keep hearing about it.
Do you play with a lot of terrain at all? Is it purely down to you playing mostly against Eldar & Tau? Hinestly cause if it is then do what I'm doing with 3 Stormravens and 3 Tactical Squads and charge the heck out of anything the turn you come in. The list I'm using currently but will tweak probably consists of:
Angels Fury Spearhead as said above.
Death Company Dreadnoght with drop pod
Death Company in drop pod
2 squads of scots with snipers and camo cloaks
Sanguinary Priest (attached to one of the tacticals)
Fast attack drop (so the other two turn up first turn)
Comes to about 1850 points. Just charge the things that are going to cause you the biggest problem.
Martel732 wrote: Gauss is very valuable, as it allows Necron warriors to expand the list of targets they threaten greatly. Chumpo marines have a very short list of units they threaten *in a meaningful manner*.
I'll be honest. The 'wound glance' on 6 is nice on paper, but it didn't really help my Necron opponent last game. Of course, this be anecdotal evidence, but is a huge eye opener. Even with Gauss, it took him 5 turns to glance 6 Killa Kanz to death. KILLA KANZ of all things!
Not denying that Gauss is highly useful in theory. They can potentially kill MC and any sort of vehicle, even Super Heavies. It just isn't something to bank on too hard.
Martel732 wrote: I don't consider a single S6 Init 1 attack a meaningful threat to any MC. Yeah, they do a number on AV 10 rear armor, but that is also incredibly situational.
Initially we'll be wanting furious charge I think, but in subsequent rounds when we're Strength 4 again then it's something at least if it's happens to be a T8 Wraithknight or Daemon Prince with Iron Arm.
Furious charge is actually a very weak chapter tactic in practice. I'm still running a mostly shooting list.
It rocks if you can make it into close combat. I think your problem is getting into close combat to begin with.
Martel732 wrote: Gauss is very valuable, as it allows Necron warriors to expand the list of targets they threaten greatly. Chumpo marines have a very short list of units they threaten *in a meaningful manner*.
I'll be honest. The 'wound glance' on 6 is nice on paper, but it didn't really help my Necron opponent last game. Of course, this be anecdotal evidence, but is a huge eye opener. Even with Gauss, it took him 5 turns to glance 6 Killa Kanz to death. KILLA KANZ of all things!
Not denying that Gauss is highly useful in theory. They can potentially kill MC and any sort of vehicle, even Super Heavies. It just isn't something to bank on too hard.
Killa Kanz are not the ideal target for Gauss. Each HP of a Land Raider is much more valuable.
Martel732 wrote: I don't consider a single S6 Init 1 attack a meaningful threat to any MC. Yeah, they do a number on AV 10 rear armor, but that is also incredibly situational.
Initially we'll be wanting furious charge I think, but in subsequent rounds when we're Strength 4 again then it's something at least if it's happens to be a T8 Wraithknight or Daemon Prince with Iron Arm.
Furious charge is actually a very weak chapter tactic in practice. I'm still running a mostly shooting list.
It rocks if you can make it into close combat. I think your problem is getting into close combat to begin with.
It's a temporary effect, and you don't get it if you get assaulted. Most players know to spoiling assault BA by now.
Martel732 wrote: Gauss is very valuable, as it allows Necron warriors to expand the list of targets they threaten greatly. Chumpo marines have a very short list of units they threaten *in a meaningful manner*.
I'll be honest. The 'wound glance' on 6 is nice on paper, but it didn't really help my Necron opponent last game. Of course, this be anecdotal evidence, but is a huge eye opener. Even with Gauss, it took him 5 turns to glance 6 Killa Kanz to death. KILLA KANZ of all things!
Not denying that Gauss is highly useful in theory. They can potentially kill MC and any sort of vehicle, even Super Heavies. It just isn't something to bank on too hard.
Yes, but they do have more than that. Heavy Destroyers basically get Lascannons and the Doomsycthe I believe has a S10 blast weapon, etc, etc. It's a bit like Bladestorm on Eldar. When you have it army wide but then have other stuff to support it then it gets a bit ridiculous.
Martel732 wrote: I keep hearing how krak grenades can bring down Wave Serpents, but all my guys somehow die before they get the chance. Amazing how that works. But I keep hearing about it.
Do you play with a lot of terrain at all? Is it purely down to you playing mostly against Eldar & Tau? Hinestly cause if it is then do what I'm doing with 3 Stormravens and 3 Tactical Squads and charge the heck out of anything the turn you come in. The list I'm using currently but will tweak probably consists of:
Angels Fury Spearhead as said above.
Death Company Dreadnoght with drop pod
Death Company in drop pod
2 squads of scots with snipers and camo cloaks
Sanguinary Priest (attached to one of the tacticals)
Fast attack drop (so the other two turn up first turn)
Comes to about 1850 points. Just charge the things that are going to cause you the biggest problem.
No, there's a mix. Additionally, I"m not a huge fan of the 1000 pt tax to field that formation. I"m also not convinced that formation can do enough damage to Eldar for it to be a TAC choice.
It's a temporary effect, and you don't get it if you get assaulted. Most players know to spoiling assault BA by now.
Hence we are the only army to get a formation which we can assault from when entering from reserve. It may be a temporary effect, but it obviously works in tangent with taking the other weapons in our sqauds (Powerfists, Power Weapons, etc, etc). It also works in tangent with the other upgrades we get, i.e. WS5 thanks to the priest, etc.
It's a temporary effect, and you don't get it if you get assaulted. Most players know to spoiling assault BA by now.
Hence we are the only army to get a formation which we can assault from when entering from reserve. It may be a temporary effect, but it obviously works in tangent with taking the other weapons in our sqauds (Powerfists, Power Weapons, etc, etc). It also works in tangent with the other upgrades we get, i.e. WS5 thanks to the priest, etc.
That formation is so expensive though. And I hate tac squads and am lukewarm towards Stormravens. I don't like our chances vs wraiths. I'll tarpit with DC and hope.
Martel732 wrote: I keep hearing how krak grenades can bring down Wave Serpents, but all my guys somehow die before they get the chance. Amazing how that works. But I keep hearing about it.
Do you play with a lot of terrain at all? Is it purely down to you playing mostly against Eldar & Tau? Hinestly cause if it is then do what I'm doing with 3 Stormravens and 3 Tactical Squads and charge the heck out of anything the turn you come in. The list I'm using currently but will tweak probably consists of:
Angels Fury Spearhead as said above.
Death Company Dreadnoght with drop pod
Death Company in drop pod
2 squads of scots with snipers and camo cloaks
Sanguinary Priest (attached to one of the tacticals)
Fast attack drop (so the other two turn up first turn)
Comes to about 1850 points. Just charge the things that are going to cause you the biggest problem.
No, there's a mix. Additionally, I"m not a huge fan of the 1000 pt tax to field that formation. I"m also not convinced that formation can do enough damage to Eldar for it to be a TAC choice.
If you have 3 ravens then give it a try. The 3 Stormravens output is actually quite decent and the Tacticals are perfectly fine. I would equip 1 unit of Tacticals with flamer death. At the very least Eldar troops will suffer to burning death.
Also, do a lot Eldar players take a lot of flyers? Are they considered to be good? You could take advantage by air domination.
Martel732 wrote: Gauss is very valuable, as it allows Necron warriors to expand the list of targets they threaten greatly. Chumpo marines have a very short list of units they threaten *in a meaningful manner*.
I'll be honest. The 'wound glance' on 6 is nice on paper, but it didn't really help my Necron opponent last game. Of course, this be anecdotal evidence, but is a huge eye opener. Even with Gauss, it took him 5 turns to glance 6 Killa Kanz to death. KILLA KANZ of all things!
Not denying that Gauss is highly useful in theory. They can potentially kill MC and any sort of vehicle, even Super Heavies. It just isn't something to bank on too hard.
Killa Kanz are not the ideal target for Gauss. Each HP of a Land Raider is much more valuable.
Martel732 wrote: I don't consider a single S6 Init 1 attack a meaningful threat to any MC. Yeah, they do a number on AV 10 rear armor, but that is also incredibly situational.
Initially we'll be wanting furious charge I think, but in subsequent rounds when we're Strength 4 again then it's something at least if it's happens to be a T8 Wraithknight or Daemon Prince with Iron Arm.
Furious charge is actually a very weak chapter tactic in practice. I'm still running a mostly shooting list.
It rocks if you can make it into close combat. I think your problem is getting into close combat to begin with.
It's a temporary effect, and you don't get it if you get assaulted. Most players know to spoiling assault BA by now.
I'm not saying Kanz are the ideal target. But it just goes to show how inefficient the Gauss is when being applied to a game. It's a nice feature, but you can't expect it to be reliable and win you games. And when Kanz were the only really available target, because I threw them in first to keep the Dreads and Morkanaught back to work on different targets. He didn't want those Kanz in combat. Despite their low WS, no one wants S7 klaws ripping their ranks apart.
Gauss is good, just not as nuts as everyone might think.
No, they just shoot down fliers with twinlinked serpent shields. One guy has a cheat card with the averages to glance out all the common fliers with Wave Serpents.
It's a temporary effect, and you don't get it if you get assaulted. Most players know to spoiling assault BA by now.
Hence we are the only army to get a formation which we can assault from when entering from reserve. It may be a temporary effect, but it obviously works in tangent with taking the other weapons in our sqauds (Powerfists, Power Weapons, etc, etc). It also works in tangent with the other upgrades we get, i.e. WS5 thanks to the priest, etc.
That formation is so expensive though. And I hate tac squads and am lukewarm towards Stormravens. I don't like our chances vs wraiths. I'll tarpit with DC and hope.
Don't charge wraiths with what I have posted. Wraiths can't hurt flyers anyway so sod them. The flyers can take care of them after the rest of the stuff is sorted. Plus imagine the look on your opponents face when you take out their Spyders. Say goodbye to your 4++ on your wraiths.
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Martel732 wrote: No, they just shoot down fliers with twinlinked serpent shields. One guy has a cheat card with the averages to glance out all the common fliers with Wave Serpents.
Cheat Card? Do you mean a card that lists the odds to take out different flyers?
Martel732 wrote: Yes, that kind of card. It's not really cheating. Just quick reference.
I suppose you can work it out yourself to see what the chances are and to work out if it's going to work for you. For a Wave Serpent we're talking about 6's to hit and then 6's to glance with the lasers/shurikan weapons and then 5's to glance and 6's to penetrate with the serpent shield. I know it's twin linked which helps a bit but the weapons are also poor AP so they are certainly not blowing you out the sky.
I'm not worried about the Eldar shooting down three Stormravens. I'm just concerned they will table all my land units. The Wave Serpents are quite deadly against things like Stormtalons, though.
BoomWolf wrote: Are we seriusly 19 pages in and yet failed to find even a dedicated counter, let alone a TAC worthy answer?
Not that surprising. Reminds me of a thread at warseer back in the 4th ed about how to counter jetbike council. Like a hundred pages, all the "tactics" were either points inefficient, did simply not work or were outright illegal. In the end it became clear that the only counter to jetbike council was another jetbike council.^^
That being said, setting up a meatshield with hammernators with ministorum priests could work. With the priests battle hymns, the unit can reroll armour and inv. saves.
Martel732 wrote: I'm not worried about the Eldar shooting down three Stormravens. I'm just concerned they will table all my land units. The Wave Serpents are quite deadly against things like Stormtalons, though.
The Stormravens will pull their weight though. TL Weapon on the top, hull mounted weapon, 4 Stormstrike Missiles and Hurricane Bolters and being able to fire 5 weapons at the same target. Screw Wave Serpents when you have those 6 Missile shots that we were talking about in the other thread.
You get one volley of 6 ST 8 shots and then you are done, though. The target will almost assuredly jink that turn, so you clear a whole whopping single HP. The WS won't have to jink in subsequent turns, because you are down to a Typhoon launcher and an assault cannon. Frankly, Stormravens are way more dangerous to Wraithknights.
Martel732 wrote: You get one volley of 6 ST 8 shots and then you are done, though. The target will almost assuredly jink that turn, so you clear a whole whopping single HP. The WS won't have to jink in subsequent turns, because you are down to a Typhoon launcher and an assault cannon. Frankly, Stormravens are way more dangerous to Wraithknights.
The other weapons are just as good though.
If I were playing against Wave Serpents then I would be charging them the turn my DC Dread and DC get in. They certainly don't survive close combat against them.
Fair enough, your units may be shot in return afterwards, but then you have 3 Stormravens to fire with and you now have tactical Squads to take care of those troops inside those transports. Dire Avengers and Guardians really don't like flamer templates.
You can kill two wave serpents with that list. Since you are having to assault the WS to kill them, there is no guarantee you'll ever get your flamer templates off against battle focus Eldar units. The other WS will fly away, under the Ravens. If the list also has Warp Spiders, you might have to prioritize them over the WS. I just don't know.
Martel732 wrote: You can kill two wave serpents with that list. Since you are having to assault the WS to kill them, there is no guarantee you'll ever get your flamer templates off against battle focus Eldar units. The other WS will fly away, under the Ravens. If the list also has Warp Spiders, you might have to prioritize them over the WS. I just don't know.
The flamer units will be getting dropped off by the ravens. You could even use the skies of fury rule but then again it is a bit risky to do that but evaluate your options at the time before deciding. The WS may well fly away but the Stormravens will soon catch them up I think since they are pretty fast also.
Other options include Melta Squads on the rear armour of those Wave Serpents. So you don't need to stick to the Death Company in my list if you don't want to. You may want to melta them with assault squads or command squads instead. The irony being that afterwards when you've shot your melta guns you can charge afterwards. Hopefully into a squad that was hiding in the transport.
Seriously, just think it over. I'm going to give it a good go. I am hopeful that this formation will be great.
Martel732 wrote: It could work for sure. I'm also worried about lists that don't care if tac marines assault them. Orks, Nids, SW, etc.
For Orks and Nids you have flamers to fry them anyway. At the end of the day you need to try and judge your meta. Coming up with a list to take on everyone is just too darn impossible in any respect. I'm sure even Eldar and Tau fall down somewhere and if they don't then make them. Cause they won't change their lists until they start losing.
Plague Drones x 6 - Plague Banner, Plague Bringe, Greater Reward on Plague Bringer, Venom Sting - 347
Daemon Prince of Nurgle - ML3, Daemonic Flight, Wings, 2 x Greater Rewards - 335
Daemon Prince of Nurgle - ML3, Daemonic Flight, Wings, 2 x Greater Rewards - 335
His list was
Anrakyr
2 x 10 Warriors inside Ghost Arks
Monoliths
2 Formations of Canoptek Harvests for a total of 12 Wraiths, 2 Spyders and 13 Scarabs.
This was a 1500 point game.
I won the roll off and chose to go second. Deployment was Vanguard Strike and he deployed his Wraiths up front as far as possible. I deployed my Horrors behind cover to fully LoS them from anything within 12". My Daemon Princes Hide behind large rock formations and are no more than 8" away from my Table corner. GUO is center at ~9" from my back Corner and behind a Forest Line and Plague Drones are off to the left of my corner on the front line of 12" I roll for my Psychic Disciplines.
Horrors Squad 1 = Incursion and Primaris Power
Horrors Squad 2 = Dark Flame and Primaris Power
GUO = Life Leech, Enfeeble and Endurance. (Not too bad, happy to see Enfeeble) and ofc Primaris for generating all from 1 discipline.
DP 1 = Dominate, Invisibility and Hallucination, Primaris
DP 2 = Iron Arm, Enfeeble, Life Leech, Primaris
Things were looking good for me from the random generator God. I took a Balesword on each DP and rolled for their remaining Greater Gifts along with my GUO
GUO had Demonic Resilience & Dark Blessing then took a plague Flail from Lesser Rewards.
Daemon Prince 1 got Corpulence
Daemon Prince 2 got Touch of Uncreation.
Turn 1
So first turn was largely uneventful. His groups of Wraith move up ~10" to keep within Range of his Spyders and his Scarabs follow suit making a Wall for cover. He has moved up to the ~22" mark leaving my Closest Daemon Prince only a measly 32" away at most. He ends his turn having fired no shots as he has no vision of any of my units.
My Turn 1, I move my Daemon Prince 1 Back and Over to my Left 12" making a 36" buffer to the closest Wraith. My Daemon Prince 2 moves up 6" to place himself inside a Forest and is 26" away from the Closest Wraith unit.
Psychic Phases begins and I roll for WC and get a 5 for a total of 18 WC. My Pink Horror squad #2 manifest Summoning on 5 Dice and succeed and I deep Strike 5 Hounds quite close to my GUO but luckily dont mishap. My Pink Horror squad #1 Use 6 Dice to cast Incursion and my opponent tries to Deny, fails and I spawn 3 Plague Drones with Banner and Plague Ridden safely. I end my turn with +5 Hounds and 3 Plague Drones more than I started with *virtual Thumbs up!*
Turn 2
The Monolith doesnt come in! My Opponent rushes forward another 10" Spyder behind but the scarabs peel off and capture an objective, the other group does the same with scarabs coming close to but not capturing a second objective. The Ghost Arks move up and pass some Dangerous Terrain Tests they are 32" away from my main Squad of Plague Drones and have visibility but not weapon range. They Disembark near the center Objective and capture it 20 man strong with Ghost Arks blocking LoS to most Warriors for a Beefy Cover Save and Charge Block. My opponent Ends his turn. His 2 Squads of Wraiths accompanied close behind by Spyders are now just 16" away from my Daemon Prince #2 and quite close to my Plague Drones.
My Turn 2 starts with my Moving my Daemon Prince #1 towards the enemy Wraiths and Spyder unit closest to him, at his max 12" leaving just a measly 4" for a charge but my opponent isn't worried and actually scoffs at my placements. I then Move my Plague Drones closer and very Near bubble Wrap his unit 1 for 1 on placement with the Drones. My Daemon Prince #1 moves slightly close and putting himself within 12" of Daemon Prince 2. My Great Fat Bastard moves up his hilarious 6" and puts himself within range of most of his abilities. Psychic Phase begins.
I roll a 2 for WC :( with my 15 WCs I roll for summoning from my Pink Horrors and my Opponents doesnt Deny it. I place 5 more Hounds of the field and they arrive Safely, my other Pink Horrors attempt to summon more Plague Drones but perils and on my Perils of the Warp I roll a 6. (we laugh about beefy Pink Horrors and) I summon 3 More Plague Drones but they mishap and get placed into ongoing reserves. I now have 5 Dice left to cast my other abilities and decide to take a few chances. I cast Enfeeble on the Wraiths and succeed on 2 Dice (Thank god) leaving me with 3 dice left, I use my last 3 to attempt to cast Invisibility on my Plague Drones, viola! It goes off!
Assault Phase. I charge in with my Plague Drones into the Wraiths. I make it in easily with an 7" charge and happily pull in the Wraiths for a nice big group hug. My Daemon Prince Charges into the Spyder and manages to get in.
I roll for my Attacks against the Spyder first and ID it on 2 wounds. The Spyder keels over and my Opponent asks If I had planned on doing that from the begining with ID spam, I tell him "It wasn't really planned, but it was something I was prepared for due to both the Plague Drones AND my DPs having ID weapons" he actually gave me a look, asked politely "The drones have ID weapons?" I said "Yes, they substitute 1 of their attacks for singular Venom Sting Attacks that have ID" He says "Well crap, hopefully they cant hit me" I chuckle knowing he's probably right since they ARE WS 3.
Battle begins with the Wraiths. They strike first against my Drones dishing out 18 attacks and hit with only 4 then wounds me twice on 2 Rending wounds. I roll my Saves and fail 1. My Drones fight back. I roll my Plague Bringer with his Balesword first. I roll 5 attacks and hit with 3. I wound with 2 because of Enfeeble dropping their T to 4. I then Roll for my other attacks. I choose to roll for Venom Sting and roll 5 attacks and hit with 4. I then wound with 2 and he has 4 3++ to make. He fails 2 and the RPs nothing. Combat ended Turn 3 Rolls around. The remaining attacks form the Drones push a further 6 wounds which he saves promptly. :(
Turn 3
The monolith scatters onto a ruin and mishaps into the warp :( My Opponent Charges in with his other 6 Wraith into my Daemon Prince of Nurgle who just mulched the Spyder and succeed easily. they are locked. The second Spyder maneuvers in and gets as far, but close to combat as possible for safety. The attacks ensue with Warriors and Scarabs holding a total of 3 Objectives. The Daemon Prince of Nurgle Strikes first against the Wraith. I deal 3 ID wounds and he saves just 1. He loses 2 Wraith before he gets to strike back. He hits with just 9 attacks and wounds on 4 with 1 rend. I roll my Invulns. Fail the Rending wound, fail 2 more 5++ and manage to survive with 1 wound left. The Drones Fight with the Remaining Wraiths from before. 4 Wraith attempt to hit me and fail with only 1 hit. They fail to Wound (Hurray for invisibility!) I attack back and use Venom Sting again with 1 attack from each member of the unit. The Bringer goes first once again and hits with 2 attacks wounds with 1. The rest of the squad attacks with 12 attacks
6 attacks put aside for Venom Sting, of the 12 I hit with 5 and wound with 3, the venom sting attacks hit with 3 and wound with 2. He has 6 saves to make. He fails 4 but RPs 2 and 2 Wraith go down again.
My turn, I move my GUO to close distance between himself and the Spyder. Its still far away for him, but the other Daemon Prince is close enough to move in and get a decent charge to tie it up. forgot about my Plague Drones in reserve and my opponent graciously lets me bring them in and they Deep Strike behind some ruins near objective 5 next to his 20 some odd Warriors. I move my other Plague Drones up and they join Combat with the 6 Wraiths and Daemon Prince. The Flesh Hounds move towards center Board and cover a lot of ground moving towards the 20 Warriors as well.
Psychic Phase begins. I roll a 4 with 17 WC dice I use 5 to summon 3 more Plague Drones and my opponent attempts to deny it, fails and I use another 5 to summon 5 more flesh hounds but perils again. they lose a member of the squad and forget how to use Dark Flame? Ooookay. Hah. The GUO Casts Enfeeble on the 4 Wraith in combat with the Daemon Prince and 3 Drones. I use my last two dice to no avail at invisibility. I proceed with attacks in both Assaults and wipe the squads with poor rolls not worth mentioning.
My Second Daemon Prince attacked the second Spyder and IDd it again with his Balesword.
The rest of the game which I wont bother going turn by turn into was me pushing forward and summoning more Hounds. I ended up losing in total 6 Drones from small squads with 4 remaining from my main squad, hilariously due to Life Leech my Daemon Prince made it back up to Full Wounds at the end of the match and pushed warriors and Ghost Arks off objectives. I won the match near the end of turn 6 when my Opponent conceded with only a few scarabs and 1 ghost ark left. He almost forgot he had even taken an HQ choice since he had him sitting in the back capturing 1 objective all game. To be honest, even I had forgotten all game he was even there.
It was a fun match and I had a blast. This was my 3rd game now against New Crons.
They are the ones that get like three shots each for ten points
assault 3 for like 8 points each only strength three though. At BS Three, so I don't know maybe not. I just like to dump buckets of dice for the momentary glimmer of hope.
Then you would need 36 shots at Bs3 to get 18 hits to deal 6 wounds that they will fail 2. 54 shots with regular reanimation protocal 72 shots for 4+++
So all that is to just kill 1 full wraith. good luck
Red Corsair wrote: He was talking about the rest of their infantry actually, which definitely is the most efficient way to kill them.
19 pages yet still nobody has actually posted an 1850 Necron list spamming these wraiths. Wraiths are more durable, yet no more killy then they were a month ago when they had access to double the firepower at least for support. Why all of a sudden are wraiths a problem again? My marines didn't have an issue beating them on missions before and they didn't have the means to efficiently kill T4 wraiths then. All I see is a distinct lack of MSS and a warscythe, the two things they leaned on in order to scare away units like wraith knights.
If you want 4+++ wraiths you need a decurion which has massive limitations on what you can take in support, want tesla barges? Sorry, you need two and a DDarc, only 400pts. Gone are the days of old where 3 AB's only set you back a measly 270 and had better firepower.
This discussion is just going in circles where someone posts a unit that can hold them up or kill a few, and some smart ass just says "But not in a decurion, or better yet with cryptek support!" Yea, now find me points.
Decrurions, harvests, D-lords and crypteks are all going to add up so incredibly fast I'd be impressed if you crammed 18 actual wraiths in and didn't leave something naked and useless.
This is everything I was going to type myself! top work spot on.
There's a 2k list using 3 harvests in a more msu fashion, as support for the rest of the army and general enemy disruption, rather than the Killy part of the force. I believe they make more sense to run this way. I don't think the harvest wraith units benefit much by having more models.
There's a 2k list using 3 harvests in a more msu fashion, as support for the rest of the army and general enemy disruption, rather than the Killy part of the force. I believe they make more sense to run this way. I don't think the harvest wraith units benefit much by having more models.
Re-posting your list here:
Decurion
Rec legion
Overlord with staff of light and veil of darkness
2 10 man warrior squads
1 5 man immortal squad
1 3 man tomb blade squad with n scopes
10 lychguard w/ warscythes
Canoptek harvest x 3
Spyder, 3 wraiths, and 3 scarabs each
Destroyer cult
Destroyer lord with solar staff, res orb, phylactery, and phase shifter as warlord
3 units of 3 destroyers
So first off, this is 2K. Try and make a list at 1850.
Secondly, you proved my point rather well. All your reclamation legion units are minimum with no transport and you only managed 9 of these killer wraiths at 2k even.
On top of all that you only have 9 destroyers worth of ranged threat... Again, at 2k.
Scariest unit hilariously enough is the lychguard and not the wraiths.
Red Corsair wrote: So first off, this is 2K. Try and make a list at 1850.
Secondly, you proved my point rather well. All your reclamation legion units are minimum with no transport and you only managed 9 of these killer wraiths at 2k even.
On top of all that you only have 9 destroyers worth of ranged threat... Again, at 2k.
Scariest unit hilariously enough is the lychguard and not the wraiths.
Completely agree. Compare a 5 man unit of sword and board Lychguard + Orikan (225 points) to a unit of 5 x Wraiths + Spyder + scarabs (310 points).
I'm not sure what to do with the over lord in a decurion wraith list.
After the reclamation legion and wraith units are purchased the list is out of points for mech so a command barge would be the only av13 target on the board.
Without the barge the over lord is slow and stuck inside warrior , immortal, scarab, or wraith units. The advantage of doing so is t4 t5 target saturation with absolutely no AV targets on the field.
With the barge the over lord has speed but he is the only AV target on the field for all of an opponent's anti tank weapons. Also the flesh bane relic war scythe needs to be hidden inside a unit to take down wraith knights. I don't trust a 4+ involved and -1 to rp when the s10 instant death wraith knight swings hit.
This is a damned if you do damned if you don't scenario. I'm leaning towards a foot deployment and including flayed ones to add the possibility of out flanking with the over lord.
Well I have again drawn the conclusion that Wraiths are not overpowered, but boring.
It is not hard to tie them up for the whole game or a significant part of it, thereby removing them from the game effectively. This also removes the unit that is tying them up from the game. Meaning you both might as well have not taken those units.
Move to location, stay in that location for the whole game. Boring.
As for tactics, it's pretty clear that "shoot the Spyder" (and there is only 1, dammit) is the winning strategy for the CH. Without RP in play they are not _that_ durable. (taking 18 bolter hits to down one).
Alcibiades wrote: Well I have again drawn the conclusion that Wraiths are not overpowered, but boring.
It is not hard to tie them up for the whole game or a significant part of it, thereby removing them from the game effectively. This also removes the unit that is tying them up from the game. Meaning you both might as well have not taken those units.
Move to location, stay in that location for the whole game. Boring.
As for tactics, it's pretty clear that "shoot the Spyder" (and there is only 1, dammit) is the winning strategy for the CH. Without RP in play they are not _that_ durable. (taking 18 bolter hits to down one).
Spiders are a great unit. They can also use rp to negate wounds from creating scarabs, and they can make them at any point in the movement phase.. Seems to me there should be at least 2 spiders for every group of wraiths.
This list is more indicative of the kind of stuff you can face with Necrons. This list has got a wraithstar led by a D Lord, a bargeLord, a Nightbringer Conclave that will deepstrike into your backfield, and Orikan for serious heavy duty brutality. As long as I force the matchups I want I will win.
Spiders are a great unit. They can also use rp to negate wounds from creating scarabs, and they can make them at any point in the movement phase.. Seems to me there should be at least 2 spiders for every group of wraiths.
That they are a great unit is specifically why there should be only 1 for each group of Wraiths. Otherwise the formation becomes completely unmanageable.
Spiders are a great unit. They can also use rp to negate wounds from creating scarabs, and they can make them at any point in the movement phase.. Seems to me there should be at least 2 spiders for every group of wraiths.
That they are a great unit is specifically why there should be only 1 for each group of Wraiths. Otherwise the formation becomes completely unmanageable.
8 models is hardly an unmanageable formation.
Goes up to 11 with the scarabs. Still not an unmanageable formation. Try running a 45 blob of conscripts screening 20 guardsmen and a pcs.
I think players are thinking about the wrong things when it comes to wraiths. We are trying to find units in our codex that can single handily take them out and we are getting upset because there are few. Also realize that the burden of taking on wraiths is not placed on one unit but an entire army. Unit selection is pivotal in 40k but tactics is more important and this is especially true with wraiths. Several players have already mentioned the most effective tactic which is to either tie them up or take them out with str 10 or D attacks.
All of your energy should go into figuring out how your army can handle his army not just his wraiths. Tieing them up with 2+ saves such as terminators is an option, large bike squads(4's to hit 3's to wound usually mean 6 saves), blob squads, or you can attempt to kill them with thunderwolves, hammerhead str 10 thunderhammers, dreadknights, wraithcannons, wraithknights, and warboss powerclaws. Their damage output is low so its not like the unit dishes out alot of damage.
Spiders are a great unit. They can also use rp to negate wounds from creating scarabs, and they can make them at any point in the movement phase.. Seems to me there should be at least 2 spiders for every group of wraiths.
That they are a great unit is specifically why there should be only 1 for each group of Wraiths. Otherwise the formation becomes completely unmanageable.
8 models is hardly an unmanageable formation.
Goes up to 11 with the scarabs. Still not an unmanageable formation. Try running a 45 blob of conscripts screening 20 guardsmen and a pcs.
There's a 2k list using 3 harvests in a more msu fashion, as support for the rest of the army and general enemy disruption, rather than the Killy part of the force. I believe they make more sense to run this way. I don't think the harvest wraith units benefit much by having more models.
Re-posting your list here:
Decurion
Rec legion
Overlord with staff of light and veil of darkness
2 10 man warrior squads
1 5 man immortal squad
1 3 man tomb blade squad with n scopes
10 lychguard w/ warscythes
Canoptek harvest x 3
Spyder, 3 wraiths, and 3 scarabs each
Destroyer cult
Destroyer lord with solar staff, res orb, phylactery, and phase shifter as warlord
3 units of 3 destroyers
So first off, this is 2K. Try and make a list at 1850.
Secondly, you proved my point rather well. All your reclamation legion units are minimum with no transport and you only managed 9 of these killer wraiths at 2k even.
On top of all that you only have 9 destroyers worth of ranged threat... Again, at 2k.
Scariest unit hilariously enough is the lychguard and not the wraiths.
The wraiths aren't "killer" is the issue. They can take punishment, they're fast, they can theoretically threaten anything even if their damage output isn't actually that high, they're fearless, they can tarpit shockingly well for so few models, they have a tiny footprint, they ignore terrain... With 3 units of 3, I can (and did twice now) use them to dictate parts of the game. Units that I don't like running free? They're bogged down in wraith from turn 3 til game end. I leave the rec legion without any gear because I don't WANT any gear on them. With their own 4++ RP, they make a great steady shooting advance that doesn't die to the return fire. We play objective games here. I want some foot troops to hold the ones on my table half so the destroyers, canopteks and lychee can go wild. If I DID give them transports, I would be undermining the list's toughness saturation. As it is, any anti-vehicle or tank hunting weapons are just trying to hurt one model that gets at least an RP roll.
People seem to keep misunderstanding that wraiths aren't god units in that they win the game by themselves. They're god units in that they make the rest of your army have a hilariously easy time winning because of how good they are at doing support jobs.
CKO wrote: I think players are thinking about the wrong things when it comes to wraiths. We are trying to find units in our codex that can single handily take them out and we are getting upset because there are few. Also realize that the burden of taking on wraiths is not placed on one unit but an entire army. Unit selection is pivotal in 40k but tactics is more important and this is especially true with wraiths. Several players have already mentioned the most effective tactic which is to either tie them up or take them out with str 10 or D attacks.
All of your energy should go into figuring out how your army can handle his army not just his wraiths. Tieing them up with 2+ saves such as terminators is an option, large bike squads(4's to hit 3's to wound usually mean 6 saves), blob squads, or you can attempt to kill them with thunderwolves, hammerhead str 10 thunderhammers, dreadknights, wraithcannons, wraithknights, and warboss powerclaws. Their damage output is low so its not like the unit dishes out alot of damage.
Thats true,
Recently played a test game against a Necron List with: Teleporting Lord, cryptek with "big blind staff", 2x wraiths,1 spider, 3 scarabs, 2x scythe with 5 immortals, 2x8 tomb blades, 2x2 heavy destroyers
I used a list with 3x flying hive tyrant devourer + Allies: Daemon Fateweaver, 2x horrors and Daemon Prince.
Without the old "tesla snap shot" shots its very hard for Necron to kill those FMC's. I got first turn and moved all these FMC forward to kill that spider first. I specially reserved that Fateweaver D6 reroll in case theirs a slight chance a FMC would get a wound and crash down. I only used 2 warp dice for those 1 warp charge powers to try to kill of that spider to make sure I get no perils. Yes, those wraiths got great board control but I controlled the SKY!
(BTW: a simple "terrify" or "horror" power could block a 8x tomb blade unit, easily.)
Spiders are a great unit. They can also use rp to negate wounds from creating scarabs, and they can make them at any point in the movement phase.. Seems to me there should be at least 2 spiders for every group of wraiths.
That they are a great unit is specifically why there should be only 1 for each group of Wraiths. Otherwise the formation becomes completely unmanageable.
8 models is hardly an unmanageable formation.
Goes up to 11 with the scarabs. Still not an unmanageable formation. Try running a 45 blob of conscripts screening 20 guardsmen and a pcs.
I mean unmanageable by the enemy. It's too good.
I see your point. A ruthless tier 1 list is not FLGS appropriate.
One of the hardest hitting units in the OP Eldar dex short of an MC, is a Shining Spear.
Shining Spears cost a little more than half a Wraith.
They have 1 attack, s6ap3 on the charge, otherwise s3ap-.
Wraiths have *3* s6 rending. That's much better than twice as good.
So, if I have 3 enemy units killing anything they want of mine by turn 3, and taking one round for most things, two rounds for bigger units, I have to beat the rest of the Necron list with the remainder, and that'll be the least threatening parts of my army.
So, optimal is MSU, every unit being about equal? So I have about 500 points out of 1850 to face over 1000 points of necrons? I'm sorry, I don't think it really matters how they spend those 1000 points.
Most competitive melee outside MCs/HQs would be Scorpions, right?
2xs4ap- for 1/3 the price?
Vs 3xS6 Rending? Wraiths hit much harder per point.
Wraiths move much further per round
Wraiths are absurdly more durable (1w t3 3+ vs 2w t*5* 3*++*).
Point remains the same. Wraiths are hard hitters.
Automatically Appended Next Post: That's my point. The 'tarpit' outright kills things faster than most CC units. While being faster. And more durable.
Anything without Fearless or other shenanigans and lots of wounds simply can't tarpit them. So, if nothing can slow them down, and nothing can kill them, they can kill what they want when they want. The only counter play for some armies is just assuming you lose one unit a turn to them. And hope the remainder can stop the bulk of the enemy army.
They're not. 3 assault marines (about the same cost as a Wraith with WCs, I think?) have more damage output on the charge against MEQ than a Wraith does.
Behold!
3 pistol shots = 2/3 x 1/2 x 1/3 = 1/9 x 3 = 1/3 .33
3 hammer of wrath = 1/2 x 1/3 x = 1/6 x 3 = 1/2 .5
9 CC attacks = 1/2 x 1/2 x 1/3 = 1/12 x 9 = 3/4 .75
total a little over 1.5
vs
rending part of attacks = 1/2 x 1/6 = 1/12 x 4 = 1/3
other part of attacks = 1/2 x 2/3 x 1/3 = 2/9 x 4 = 8/9
So best case ASM assaulting MEQ outdoes Wraiths by a whole 20%? ( (6/4)/(5/4) = (6/5) )
Against anything t5+, Wraiths start to pull ahead.
Against anything 2+, Wraiths destroy.
Against anything I4, Wraiths strike first.
In the second round - and later - Wraiths out DPS ASM:
Wraiths get (3/4) of their initial (5/4), so (15/16ths). Not amazing.
ASM get 2/3rds of their 9 attacks, so (2/3)(3/4), or (1/2).
After the first round of combat, assuming both are unhurt, a Wraith does nearly double 3xASM damage to MEQs, where 3xASM cost more.
So, best case, a relatively paper assault unit with worse mobility can edge out Wraiths in the first round of combat, but get destroyed afterwords.
So, again, Wraith damage outshines most CC units. In some circumstances they can pull head (assaulting grots!), but its quite clear Wraiths are, by large, simply more killy.
Bharring wrote: So best case ASM assaulting MEQ outdoes Wraiths by a whole 20%? ( (6/4)/(5/4) = (6/5) )
Against anything t5+, Wraiths start to pull ahead.
Against anything 2+, Wraiths destroy.
Against anything I4, Wraiths strike first.
In the second round - and later - Wraiths out DPS ASM:
Wraiths get (3/4) of their initial (5/4), so (15/16ths). Not amazing.
ASM get 2/3rds of their 9 attacks, so (2/3)(3/4), or (1/2).
After the first round of combat, assuming both are unhurt, a Wraith does nearly double 3xASM damage to MEQs, where 3xASM cost more.
So, best case, a relatively paper assault unit with worse mobility can edge out Wraiths in the first round of combat, but get destroyed afterwords.
Which does not change that wraiths are not very killy. Assault marines aren't either, as you correctly note, which is why I used them as an example.
Killy is, say, equivalent points worth of Meganobs, Triarch Praetorians, Flayed Ones (brr), or TH/SS Terminators.
Wraith vs. MEQ = .583 wounds
Meganob vs. MEQ = 1.25
1 (28 points) Praetorian with Rod = 0.667
3 Flayed Ones = 1.5
4 Bloodletters = 1.33
Are Wraiths killy compared to a DC squad with a couple of power fists? Or some sanguinary guard? I don't think so. Relying on rending to punch through armor is very meh.
The people describing them as the ultimate tarpit have the right of it. They will beat down troop choices and shooting units and tarpit everything else Very solid, yes. Broken? We'll see.
They're not superkilly, no. But they can tear anything with average durability - like most infantry or most vehicles - apart easily. They hit too hard to be considered just a tarpit. And, against most targets, are ready to rip something else up next turn.
The super killy things - Wraithlords, meganobz, Termies, etc - still die far too quickly at the hands of Wraiths. And Wraiths don't die too quickly to them at all. And are cheaper.
So they hard counter those killy units. Some of them even take wraiths a while to chew through. Which would make sense, if that were their role.
The problem is, Wraiths hard counter everything else, too. And have the mobility to pick their targets. So, they win big if they hold TH/SS Termies for a while before killing them, but they win bigger by attacking anything else.
For most armies, there just isn't a counter, and MSU tarpitting doesn't work, because (1) even most MSU is still too expensive, (2) Wraiths can pick their target with their mobility, and (3), Wraiths are too killy, so countercharging them is unlikely to hold them.
Horrors Squad 1 = Incursion and Primaris Power
Horrors Squad 2 = Dark Flame and Primaris Power
GUO = Life Leech, Enfeeble and Endurance. (Not too bad, happy to see Enfeeble) and ofc Primaris for generating all from 1 discipline.
DP 1 = Dominate, Invisibility and Hallucination, Primaris
DP 2 = Iron Arm, Enfeeble, Life Leech, Primaris
I don't believe you get the Primaris from Psychic Focus. Because they have 'Daemon of ...', they get Chaos Focus. So they all have their God's Primaris Power and can never get Psychic Focus.
Bharring wrote: They're not superkilly, no. But they can tear anything with average durability - like most infantry or most vehicles - apart easily. They hit too hard to be considered just a tarpit. And, against most targets, are ready to rip something else up next turn.
The super killy things - Wraithlords, meganobz, Termies, etc - still die far too quickly at the hands of Wraiths. And Wraiths don't die too quickly to them at all. And are cheaper.
So they hard counter those killy units. Some of them even take wraiths a while to chew through. Which would make sense, if that were their role.
The problem is, Wraiths hard counter everything else, too. And have the mobility to pick their targets. So, they win big if they hold TH/SS Termies for a while before killing them, but they win bigger by attacking anything else.
For most armies, there just isn't a counter, and MSU tarpitting doesn't work, because (1) even most MSU is still too expensive, (2) Wraiths can pick their target with their mobility, and (3), Wraiths are too killy, so countercharging them is unlikely to hold them.
This might be the case. I don't know yet. I haven't fought them yet.
Horrors Squad 1 = Incursion and Primaris Power
Horrors Squad 2 = Dark Flame and Primaris Power
GUO = Life Leech, Enfeeble and Endurance. (Not too bad, happy to see Enfeeble) and ofc Primaris for generating all from 1 discipline.
DP 1 = Dominate, Invisibility and Hallucination, Primaris
DP 2 = Iron Arm, Enfeeble, Life Leech, Primaris
I don't believe you get the Primaris from Psychic Focus. Because they have 'Daemon of ...', they get Chaos Focus. So they all have their God's Primaris Power and can never get Psychic Focus.
Chaos Psychic Focus does not override Psychic Focus. Any "Daemon of X" or "CSM of X" which is a Psyker gains Psychic Focus AND Chaos Psychic Focus due to the rules not being singular, without an either or statement there is nothing preventing a Daemon / Chaos unit / model with Chaos Psychic Focus from benefiting from Psychic Focus.
They're not. 3 assault marines (about the same cost as a Wraith with WCs, I think?) have more damage output on the charge against MEQ than a Wraith does.
Behold!
3 pistol shots = 2/3 x 1/2 x 1/3 = 1/9 x 3 = 1/3 .33
3 hammer of wrath = 1/2 x 1/3 x = 1/6 x 3 = 1/2 .5
9 CC attacks = 1/2 x 1/2 x 1/3 = 1/12 x 9 = 3/4 .75
total a little over 1.5
vs
rending part of attacks = 1/2 x 1/6 = 1/12 x 4 = 1/3
other part of attacks = 1/2 x 2/3 x 1/3 = 2/9 x 4 = 8/9
total about 1.25
albeit the wraith will go earlier
You didn't do your armour saves though. Overall the assault marines do 0.5 wounds in total, while the wraith does 0.63 wounds in total since the rend part ignores armours. So even with pistol shots and hammer of wrath going the wraith still does more damage. Those pistol shots and hammer of wrath attacks are not always going to be the case either. Heck, in order to get Hammer of Wrath in the first place you need to only move 6" before assaulting which is a large stretch on your manoeuvrability capabilities. Not to mention you lose those parts in 2nd round onwards anyway and are damage per round.
I did. That's the last fraction (1/3) in all but the Wraith's rending calculation. They do indeed do more damage.
I gave them both the charge in order compare charge vs. charge. In non-charge compared to non-charge, the marines would do worse due to lack of hammer of wrath and vecause the charge gives them 3 more attacks as opposed to the Wraith's +1..
I did. That's the last fraction (1/3) in all but the Wraith's rending calculation. They do indeed do more damage.
I gave them both the charge in order compare charge vs. charge. In non-charge compared to non-charge, the marines would do worse due to lack of hammer of wrath and vecause the charge gives them 3 more attacks as opposed to the Wraith's +1..
Ah ok misread the calculations then.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Sanguinary Guard with a Priest and Banner do well if they get the charge.
If the SG and Priest charge they cause 3 wounds between them.
If the Wraiths Charge then they cause 2.22 wounds to the SG.
This is taking into account WS5 and FNP thanks to the priest and I tried to include the master crafted re-rolls as well.
Bharring wrote: They're not superkilly, no. But they can tear anything with average durability - like most infantry or most vehicles - apart easily. They hit too hard to be considered just a tarpit. And, against most targets, are ready to rip something else up next turn.
The super killy things - Wraithlords, meganobz, Termies, etc - still die far too quickly at the hands of Wraiths. And Wraiths don't die too quickly to them at all. And are cheaper.
So they hard counter those killy units. Some of them even take wraiths a while to chew through. Which would make sense, if that were their role.
The problem is, Wraiths hard counter everything else, too. And have the mobility to pick their targets. So, they win big if they hold TH/SS Termies for a while before killing them, but they win bigger by attacking anything else.
For most armies, there just isn't a counter, and MSU tarpitting doesn't work, because (1) even most MSU is still too expensive, (2) Wraiths can pick their target with their mobility, and (3), Wraiths are too killy, so countercharging them is unlikely to hold them.
Yep, this is our group's experience with them so far. They're bully units that are so durable that they can fight against things that bully units shouldn't be able to beat, like some dedicated elite cc units.
Basically the only thing they DIDN'T give them is the ability to fire their 3++ save as a really good 60" gun.
Horrors Squad 1 = Incursion and Primaris Power
Horrors Squad 2 = Dark Flame and Primaris Power
GUO = Life Leech, Enfeeble and Endurance. (Not too bad, happy to see Enfeeble) and ofc Primaris for generating all from 1 discipline.
DP 1 = Dominate, Invisibility and Hallucination, Primaris
DP 2 = Iron Arm, Enfeeble, Life Leech, Primaris
I don't believe you get the Primaris from Psychic Focus. Because they have 'Daemon of ...', they get Chaos Focus. So they all have their God's Primaris Power and can never get Psychic Focus.
Chaos Psychic Focus does not override Psychic Focus. Any "Daemon of X" or "CSM of X" which is a Psyker gains Psychic Focus AND Chaos Psychic Focus due to the rules not being singular, without an either or statement there is nothing preventing a Daemon / Chaos unit / model with Chaos Psychic Focus from benefiting from Psychic Focus.
Except this phrase from the Psychic Focus rule:
“If during the course of the game, that Psyker gains a psychic power from a different psychic discipline, he immediately loses Psychic Focus (and the associated primaris power).”
Horrors Squad 1 = Incursion and Primaris Power
Horrors Squad 2 = Dark Flame and Primaris Power
GUO = Life Leech, Enfeeble and Endurance. (Not too bad, happy to see Enfeeble) and ofc Primaris for generating all from 1 discipline.
DP 1 = Dominate, Invisibility and Hallucination, Primaris
DP 2 = Iron Arm, Enfeeble, Life Leech, Primaris
I don't believe you get the Primaris from Psychic Focus. Because they have 'Daemon of ...', they get Chaos Focus. So they all have their God's Primaris Power and can never get Psychic Focus.
Chaos Psychic Focus does not override Psychic Focus. Any "Daemon of X" or "CSM of X" which is a Psyker gains Psychic Focus AND Chaos Psychic Focus due to the rules not being singular, without an either or statement there is nothing preventing a Daemon / Chaos unit / model with Chaos Psychic Focus from benefiting from Psychic Focus.
Except this phrase from the Psychic Focus rule:
“If during the course of the game, that Psyker gains a psychic power from a different psychic discipline, he immediately loses Psychic Focus (and the associated primaris power).”
Except Chaos Psychic Focus is it's own rule which is granted before the game begins, which means it's a power the model knows already, and doesn't conflict with powers generated or learned DURING the game. Much like Force and Force Weapons which is explained as NOT removing Psychic Focus or the likes.
My 20 Battlewagon Shoota Boyz jumped 6 Wraiths, lost combat, took some Mob Rule Wounds, survived the Necron Assault phase, and held down the Wraiths until the Warbikers could show up to finish them off. The Bosspole Nob just kept the Boyz from getting wiped in combat. Meanwhile, the rest of his army faltered against my Battlewagon mounted Lootas and Shoota Boyz and Kustom Mega Kannons. He didn't bring enough Gauss and his massed Tesla shots couldn't touch the BWs.
Marines have a few ways. Sternguard hellfire rounds, gravs (not the best use, of course, but gravs have a highrate of Fire as well...), kheres assault cannons, stormtalons even have a decent shot.
Wraiths are great at absorbing low rate of fire, high strength and ap shots. We just need to use our weapons that have a higher rate of fire to burn down the wraiths. Or atleast shoot them to the point they aren't going to do a lot of damage in combat, aswell.
If he's using the canoptek formation, make sure to kill the spiders first, of course.
I like that a lot of these suggestions just assume that the necron player is oging to move their Wraiths in a straight line slowly toward you or that there will just be 1 unit.
Hollismason wrote: I like that a lot of these suggestions just assume that the necron player is oging to move their Wraiths in a straight line slowly toward you or that there will just be 1 unit.
It's not much different then the opposite side assuming every advantage under the sun all the time either. This thread is pretty much useless at this point, people will just have to play it out for themselves and see.
I'd like to have an idea that might do something when they face them, beyond just hoping to not care that each of these cheap units that can eliminate almost anything they want in one game turn of combat, and have the mobility to get to anything, somehow leave me with enough to handle the rest of your army
At least with Serpent Spam, there were theoretical counters for most books. Clearly, most weren't TAC options, but there were ways to play against them.
For instance, any squad with Krak grenades could deny lots ground until they were removed. Or you could pod things in close. Or you could rush them. Or AV14. Or lots of AV12 w/S7 shooting. None of these would both be effective enough and be TAC enough to win in tournies more than Serpent Spam, but at least there are options.
And, with Serpents, endurance was very hard. If it got close enough, up to an EV of 11.5 s6/7 shots, high S, but also high AP (less than 1 AP2 every other round). Usually an EV of 8.5, though. And half ignored cover.
Wraiths may spend 2 full rounds moving forward. If the Necron player is much worse than you, and you're very mobile, on occasion it could be 3. Other way around, 1 is quite possible.
Then, for 135 points, they get 12 s6 rending hits in melee on the charge, and another 9 on the other half of the turn. Even assuming no charge bonus, that's *18* s6 *actual-rending* attacks that ignore cover.
As for survivability, Serpent can get a 3+ cover, at the cost of 2/3rds of its shooting. Wraiths get a 3++ for anything. AV 12 is moderately harder to hurt than t5, but (1) Wraiths have 6 total wounds compared to 3 HP, (2) Anything Ignores Cover still gives wraiths a 3++, but no save for Serpents, (3) AV10 rear means no pen protection, and is really easy to pop, and (4) either the Serpent is firing 4 shots at a safe distance, 7 shots in charge threat range, or has no pen protection, meaning the first pen through its jink hoses it hard. One hit from anything can kill at most 1/3rd of the wraiths if its lucky. One hit from the same things and weaker can kill the entire Serpent if its lucky.
And if the Serpent gets aggressive, you can charge it with just about anything s4+ and kill it. If just about anything charges wraiths, they might do a wound, but you lose that unit, and probably give the wraiths a free d6" move.
So that's why this thread is necessary. When the Serpent came out, it was clearly broken, but there were weaknesses. There were counters. We still haven't found a counter for Wraiths for most factions.
(Sternies:
2x(2/3)(5/6)(1/3) = 2x(5/27) wounds/round in rapid fire. 1 sternie kills about 1/6th of a Wraith that round.
10(2)(5/27) is roughly 4 wounds. Kill 2 wraiths, charged by 4 (success even on snakeeyes), lose 5 on the first round of combat, another 3 or 4 the next round. Manage to actually hold the unit for 2 game turns, and kill 90 points of it, but it costs you a whole 10 man sternie squad. And that's assuming that maneuvering goes exactly how you want it.
Bharring wrote: I'd like to have an idea that might do something when they face them, beyond just hoping to not care that each of these cheap units that can eliminate almost anything they want in one game turn of combat, and have the mobility to get to anything, somehow leave me with enough to handle the rest of your army
At least with Serpent Spam, there were theoretical counters for most books. Clearly, most weren't TAC options, but there were ways to play against them.
For instance, any squad with Krak grenades could deny lots ground until they were removed. Or you could pod things in close. Or you could rush them. Or AV14. Or lots of AV12 w/S7 shooting. None of these would both be effective enough and be TAC enough to win in tournies more than Serpent Spam, but at least there are options.
And, with Serpents, endurance was very hard. If it got close enough, up to an EV of 11.5 s6/7 shots, high S, but also high AP (less than 1 AP2 every other round). Usually an EV of 8.5, though. And half ignored cover.
Wraiths may spend 2 full rounds moving forward. If the Necron player is much worse than you, and you're very mobile, on occasion it could be 3. Other way around, 1 is quite possible.
Then, for 135 points, they get 12 s6 rending hits in melee on the charge, and another 9 on the other half of the turn. Even assuming no charge bonus, that's *18* s6 *actual-rending* attacks that ignore cover.
As for survivability, Serpent can get a 3+ cover, at the cost of 2/3rds of its shooting. Wraiths get a 3++ for anything. AV 12 is moderately harder to hurt than t5, but (1) Wraiths have 6 total wounds compared to 3 HP, (2) Anything Ignores Cover still gives wraiths a 3++, but no save for Serpents, (3) AV10 rear means no pen protection, and is really easy to pop, and (4) either the Serpent is firing 4 shots at a safe distance, 7 shots in charge threat range, or has no pen protection, meaning the first pen through its jink hoses it hard. One hit from anything can kill at most 1/3rd of the wraiths if its lucky. One hit from the same things and weaker can kill the entire Serpent if its lucky.
And if the Serpent gets aggressive, you can charge it with just about anything s4+ and kill it. If just about anything charges wraiths, they might do a wound, but you lose that unit, and probably give the wraiths a free d6" move.
So that's why this thread is necessary. When the Serpent came out, it was clearly broken, but there were weaknesses. There were counters. We still haven't found a counter for Wraiths for most factions.
(Sternies:
2x(2/3)(5/6)(1/3) = 2x(5/27) wounds/round in rapid fire. 1 sternie kills about 1/6th of a Wraith that round.
10(2)(5/27) is roughly 4 wounds. Kill 2 wraiths, charged by 4 (success even on snakeeyes), lose 5 on the first round of combat, another 3 or 4 the next round. Manage to actually hold the unit for 2 game turns, and kill 90 points of it, but it costs you a whole 10 man sternie squad. And that's assuming that maneuvering goes exactly how you want it.
One of the best options, but still a loss.)
Yep exactly thats the thing serpents are not nearly as scary now that 7th changed jink, before i could shoot fully and get a 4 up each turn now if i jink i will get a 3+ yes but wont be nearly as effective shooting. They also have decent counters(one being necrons tomb blades w/ gauss and ignores cover) also anything that will catch them in cc(like wraiths).
Any other unit that was deemed op by the masses usually people have answers, this post has went on for 23 pages and mathhammered out none are great unless you throw 2-3x the points at it and the rest of the necron army is sitting there unscathed, i wish they kept the phase shifter and went to 4++ with the T5 boost as that wouldve made them a very balanced unit thats while still great to use not downright auto include.
It's not much different then the opposite side assuming every advantage under the sun all the time either. This thread is pretty much useless at this point, people will just have to play it out for themselves and see.
Ya this.
People need to quit freaking out. Wraiths are TWC-lite, meaning they're great but hardly unmanageable.
The vast majority of LGS's and tourneys I've seen have a 2 source limit or some variation of. So, to get the more durable version that everyone is afraid of means one of two things.. either its a decurion formation for more than 1 harvest formation meaning no significant ranged presence or mobility is left in the army, OR theres only a single harvest formation + a CAD/other formation. This is the weaker approach IMO.
The alternative and probably the more competitive approach is to spam normal wraiths in a CAD, i.e. wraithwing. Here were looking at a potential tier 1 build. So whats new? Better wraiths!!!! Worse telsa worse CCBs worse anni barges worse scythes no mss no doom/despairs no voltaics no lances. Hmmm.
Meanwhile the majority of effective answers to this are torrenting medium strength weaponry and nothings changed here. S7+ does literally the same as it did before. S6 slightly worse. And again TWC-lite because no true deathstar build exists and no S10 access. D lords also took a hit. Ya they can maintain unit coherency but the mobility has definitely taken a hit due to jetpack status. This combined with the change to beasts and T5 are subtle changes that mean wraiths are better off alone.. which in turn means less tanking nonsense from D lords.
The unit is damn good no doubt. Probably even capable of altering the metagame, but its not sky falling territory.
Bharring wrote: I'd like to have an idea that might do something when they face them, beyond just hoping to not care that each of these cheap units that can eliminate almost anything they want in one game turn of combat,
They can't. Their damage output is mediocre. 6 Wraiths (240+ points) will kill 3.5 MEQ on average, or put 4.5 wounds on Tyrannid Warriors, or 2.5 wounds on Meganobs.
Bharring wrote: I'd like to have an idea that might do something when they face them, beyond just hoping to not care that each of these cheap units that can eliminate almost anything they want in one game turn of combat,
They can't. Their damage output is mediocre. 6 Wraiths (240+ points) will kill 3.5 MEQ on average, or put 4.5 wounds on Tyrannid Warriors, or 2.5 wounds on Meganobs.
Ja anything with an invul or just big enough with fearless can hold them for a good time. (raptors and lord holding them for like 3-4 turns)
Just gonna need a nice screening unit to deal with 1 unit of 6.
But anyways. About 200 points. Kill 2/6 models in a 270 point unit. Then, losing 3.5 models a turn, you hold them up 3 rounds of combat, so 1.5 game turns. Without killing another Wraith.
Assuming nothing goes wrong, you're spending most of the cost of the unit you want to stop, hurting it by 1/3rd, and slowing it for 2 turns.
Hollismason wrote: I like that a lot of these suggestions just assume that the necron player is oging to move their Wraiths in a straight line slowly toward you or that there will just be 1 unit.
It's not much different then the opposite side assuming every advantage under the sun all the time either. This thread is pretty much useless at this point, people will just have to play it out for themselves and see.
Agreed. We'll see what happens when the GT results start rolling in.
It's not much different then the opposite side assuming every advantage under the sun all the time either. This thread is pretty much useless at this point, people will just have to play it out for themselves and see.
Ya this.
People need to quit freaking out. Wraiths are TWC-lite, meaning they're great but hardly unmanageable.
The vast majority of LGS's and tourneys I've seen have a 2 source limit or some variation of. So, to get the more durable version that everyone is afraid of means one of two things.. either its a decurion formation for more than 1 harvest formation meaning no significant ranged presence or mobility is left in the army, OR theres only a single harvest formation + a CAD/other formation. This is the weaker approach IMO.
The alternative and probably the more competitive approach is to spam normal wraiths in a CAD, i.e. wraithwing. Here were looking at a potential tier 1 build. So whats new? Better wraiths!!!! Worse telsa worse CCBs worse anni barges worse scythes no mss no doom/despairs no voltaics no lances. Hmmm.
Meanwhile the majority of effective answers to this are torrenting medium strength weaponry and nothings changed here. S7+ does literally the same as it did before. S6 slightly worse. And again TWC-lite because no true deathstar build exists and no S10 access. D lords also took a hit. Ya they can maintain unit coherency but the mobility has definitely taken a hit due to jetpack status. This combined with the change to beasts and T5 are subtle changes that mean wraiths are better off alone.. which in turn means less tanking nonsense from D lords.
The unit is damn good no doubt. Probably even capable of altering the metagame, but its not sky falling territory.
I disagree about the most competitive approach. I think the truly good players will eventually use a decurion with 2 or 3 bare bones minimum size harvests. (230ish a piece). Having units of 6 wraiths each is overkill. They don't need to be 6 strong to live, or 6 strong to go bully units or tarpit good ones. They work better as msu support units. And it literally takes ALL the enemy firepower if not more to kill 3 spyders in cover behind wraiths with RP. If they try to focus them down first, the rest of your army is going to be completely unscathed.
I could see a list like that shaping up to be pretty strong. Thing is there's plenty of builds capable of erasing all 3 spyders in the first turn or two. It's because of this 'lynchpin' effect and also the greater restriction on fire support options, not to mention higher compulsory investment that makes me think decurion is not the best choice. Bikes otoh..
dominuschao wrote: I could see a list like that shaping up to be pretty strong. Thing is there's plenty of builds capable of erasing all 3 spyders in the first turn or two. It's because of this 'lynchpin' effect and also the greater restriction on fire support options, not to mention higher compulsory investment that makes me think decurion is not the best choice. Bikes otoh..
It doesn't matter if most armies can take out the Spyders in the first two turns. That's 150 pts of your army that they spent 1 to 1 1/2 of their shooting phases to take out. The wraiths are very likely in charge range by then, and if they're picking their targets well then the won't need RP to tie it up for most of the game or kill it in a few assault phases. T5 2W and 3++ will suffice against most things. If you've got a well built Decurion then they'll regret spending those turns shooting at Spyders because you'll have too many durable bodies to remove off of objectives while you whittle down your enemy's offensive capabilities and kill any ObSec they brought.
I'm not saying you HAVE to bring a Decurion to make a good Necron list. I think it and CAD-Crons are both perfectly viable as strong armies.
Are they really, though? Is the lack of obsec for Decurion offset by the increase in durability? Are they going to table the opponent (either by shooting or outlasting them) or are they going to lose to that wave serpent sitting next to that sad sad Ghost Ark that isn't obsec?
To put some numbers to it:
Best-case scenario, you have an AP 2 weapon that doesn't double out a Necron. So no armor save (and let's assume it's not a wraith/something with an invulnerable save). So instead of a 5+ you get a 4+ FNP. That's a 16% increase in durability.
But what about when we have a 4+ armor save that isn't negated? Well then we save 75% of the wounds with a 4+/4+ and only 66% of the wounds with a 4+/5+. So that's a difference of only 9% (really 8.3%). What if we have a 2+ armor save? Then the difference between 2+/4+ and 2+/5+ is even smaller (91.6% vs 88.8), so 3% more wounds are saved. Roughly.
Is somewhere between a 3 and a 16 % durability increase really worth the loss of obsec? Sure, you can't take 18 wraiths in a normal CAD. But I think that most top tier lists will do the math and take Obsec one way or another
But what about when we have a 4+ armor save that isn't negated? Well then we save 75% of the wounds with a 4+/4+ and only 66% of the wounds with a 4+/5+. So that's a difference of only 9% (really 8.3%). What if we have a 2+ armor save? Then the difference between 2+/4+ and 2+/5+ is even smaller (91.6% vs 88.8), so 3% more wounds are saved. Roughly.
Is somewhere between a 3 and a 16 % durability increase really worth the loss of obsec? Sure, you can't take 18 wraiths in a normal CAD. But I think that most top tier lists will do the math and take Obsec one way or another
Actually, you're looking at it wrong. A move from RP5+ to RP4+ gives you a constant benefit, regardless of your save.
A 2+/5+ will fail ~11% of its saves. A 2+/4+ will fail 8.3% of its saves. That's a 33% improvement. An attack that would kill 4 guys now kills 3.
Compare to a warrior: 4+/5+ fails 33% of its saves. 4+/4+ fails 25%. That's a 33% improvement again. An attack that would kill 4 guys now kills 3.
Had a game recently against triple harvest decurion vs draigostar. All 3 spyders were dead top of turn 2 and thats forgetting they didnt start with RP. No ranged presence to speak of in the army outside of compulsory and some night scythes was IMO a big factor. Game ended bottom of t6 final result draigo 15 harvest 6.
dominuschao wrote: Had a game recently against triple harvest decurion vs draigostar. All 3 spyders were dead top of turn 2 and thats forgetting they didnt start with RP. No ranged presence to speak of in the army outside of compulsory and some night scythes was IMO a big factor. Game ended bottom of t6 final result draigo 15 harvest 6.
How did drago star manage 3 dead spyders?
did the necron player just force feed em in or something? or where they all clumped together for a massive multi charge?
dominuschao wrote: Had a game recently against triple harvest decurion vs draigostar. All 3 spyders were dead top of turn 2 and thats forgetting they didnt start with RP. No ranged presence to speak of in the army outside of compulsory and some night scythes was IMO a big factor. Game ended bottom of t6 final result draigo 15 harvest 6.
See everyone? The answer to Wraith cheese is to bring something just as cheesy. Yay!
did the necron player just force feed em in or something? or where they all clumped together for a massive multi charge?
To clarify, by the end of my 2nd turn.. 1 went down turn 1 and the other two turn 2.
See everyone? The answer to Wraith cheese is to bring something just as cheesy. Yay!
Gotta love this game, right?
Lolz well to be fair neither list was friendly and both sides were fine with that. I've said before if were discussing multiple harvest formations its probably not a 'friendly' game anyway.
Edit- anyway the match was fun and the wraiths were definitely hard. However without supporting fire I feel the wraiths weren't at their best and without the spyders the scarabs definitely moved into the realm of a tax.
did the necron player just force feed em in or something? or where they all clumped together for a massive multi charge?
To clarify, by the end of my 2nd turn.. 1 went down turn 1 and the other two turn 2.
See everyone? The answer to Wraith cheese is to bring something just as cheesy. Yay!
Gotta love this game, right?
Lolz well to be fair neither list was friendly and both sides were fine with that. I've said before if were discussing multiple harvest formations its probably not a 'friendly' game anyway.
My main gripe is Draigo himself. I haven't seen anyone complain about him, much less Draigostar, yet people can't deal with Wraiths apparently. >.>
did the necron player just force feed em in or something? or where they all clumped together for a massive multi charge?
To clarify, by the end of my 2nd turn.. 1 went down turn 1 and the other two turn 2.
See everyone? The answer to Wraith cheese is to bring something just as cheesy. Yay!
Gotta love this game, right?
Lolz well to be fair neither list was friendly and both sides were fine with that. I've said before if were discussing multiple harvest formations its probably not a 'friendly' game anyway.
Edit- anyway the match was fun and the wraiths were definitely hard. However without supporting fire I feel the wraiths weren't at their best and without the spyders the scarabs definitely moved into the realm of a tax.
I mean through what method?
Mass Psilencers to attempt a 1 shot?
a TON of Psycanon shots? 3 Dreadknights? (like what was the list and what did you do? since just saying yeah i beat them doesn't really help.)
Draigo wing will curb stomp any assault army except draigo wing with allied priests in the paladin squads. That being said draigo wing isn't competitive because eldar, tau, white scars, and centurion spam will out shoot them.
BAO/LVO missions, rolled 3 (longboard deployment, nightfight in effect, relic primary- 4 vp, modified maelstrom secondary- 3 vp). Each player places 1 objective in their DZ, relic as standard. Maelstrom is thus: Beginning of each game turn both players roll 2 of the following rerolling duplicates.. control obj 1, control obj 2, kill enemy unit, kill enemy unit, have a scoring unit in enemy DZ, have 3 scoring units and no enemies in your DZ. Each worth 1 VP at end of a GAME TURN. End of game whoever has more VP wins maestrom (+3 pts).
First turn cents vaped a spyder in cover with stealth and 4+ RP (I forgot it didnt have RP yet). Second turn fire raptor and cents smoked the other two and thats without ignores cover. Thing is this thread has been about 'competitive' level theorizing. At that level, as above, there are plenty of easy answers to spyders making them too much of a lynchpin for competitive play IMO. At least to build an entire list around.
I think the confusion stems from people nowadays referring to a Centurion Star with Draigo as a "draigostar", while that term used to be associated with a paladin star. IMO, a CentStar is still a CentStar and not a Draigo star as the centurions are what actually provides the hitting power. Draigo merely adds a storm shield and GoI.
It is a rough list to face with wraithspam, especially with guaranteed invisibility from Loth. Wraiths cannot tie you up as you just gate away.
BAO/LVO missions, rolled 3 (longboard deployment, nightfight in effect, relic primary- 4 vp, modified maelstrom secondary- 3 vp). Each player places 1 objective in their DZ, relic as standard. Maelstrom is thus: Beginning of each game turn both players roll 2 of the following rerolling duplicates.. control obj 1, control obj 2, kill enemy unit, kill enemy unit, have a scoring unit in enemy DZ, have 3 scoring units and no enemies in your DZ. Each worth 1 VP at end of a GAME TURN. End of game whoever has more VP wins maestrom (+3 pts).
First turn cents vaped a spyder in cover with stealth and 4+ RP (I forgot it didnt have RP yet). Second turn fire raptor and cents smoked the other two and thats without ignores cover. Thing is this thread has been about 'competitive' level theorizing. At that level, as above, there are plenty of easy answers to spyders making them too much of a lynchpin for competitive play IMO. At least to build an entire list around.
I think harvests with max or near max numbers of wraiths are a mistake. Also that list has TOO MUCH harvest for its point level. They are very good support elements but if all you have is harvests, all you can do is pester and annoy enemies, not really bring any major offense to bear on them.
I'm much more scared of a balanced cron decurion that just takes a couple minimum size harvests and then concentrates on getting some offense in the list to go with them.
Harvest spam makes for an annoying army to kill, but not one that's very good at killing you.
I think harvests with max or near max numbers of wraiths are a mistake. Also that list has TOO MUCH harvest for its point level. They are very good support elements but if all you have is harvests, all you can do is pester and annoy enemies, not really bring any major offense to bear on them.
I'm much more scared of a balanced cron decurion that just takes a couple minimum size harvests and then concentrates on getting some offense in the list to go with them.
Harvest spam makes for an annoying army to kill, but not one that's very good at killing you.
But that's the rub. Unit selection inside a Decurion is so inflexible its hard to take more than one harvest and still have points left for any halfway decent offensive additions. I think a single, maxed out harvest working alongside a CAD will be much scarier as a balanced force.
Nah, minimal harvests are only 230ish. This isn't really theory hammer for me anymore. I've run them and gotten our cron players to run them that way. They cause just as much trouble and disruption as a full harvest, but allow for a much more fleshed out army to support them.
Needless to say the cron games around here have been very one-sided games.
Gates and H&R lists should do fine since the wraiths cant really turn around and omnomnom them for safety
I would of turned the spiders and scarabs around onto the drop pod marines asap to keep em from getting cented or shot personally. but thats depends on the actual map and where they came in :/ Cant wait to see more lists and stuff.
I think harvests with max or near max numbers of wraiths are a mistake. Also that list has TOO MUCH harvest for its point level. They are very good support elements but if all you have is harvests, all you can do is pester and annoy enemies, not really bring any major offense to bear on them.
I'm much more scared of a balanced cron decurion that just takes a couple minimum size harvests and then concentrates on getting some offense in the list to go with them.
Harvest spam makes for an annoying army to kill, but not one that's very good at killing you.
But that's the rub. Unit selection inside a Decurion is so inflexible its hard to take more than one harvest and still have points left for any halfway decent offensive additions. I think a single, maxed out harvest working alongside a CAD will be much scarier as a balanced force.
This and this.
Couldn't have said it better myself. I think it would be arguably hard to find a better list than what I faced that was focused on 3 harvest formations. And thats really my point in posting this here. Take this boogyman out of the abstract. The harvest formation is nuts, BUT whats the rest look like. Without fire support it was one dimensional and put me on auto pilot as far as target priority goes because there wasn't really anything shooting back. I believe wraiths will be featured in most necron lists and definitely in competitive lists. I believe decurions won't feature more than 1-2 harvest formations while CADs will be able to max out on them.
I also feel wraith players will really be missing their D lords because they just arent that killy without S7 ap2 and PE for the unit. For example my dreadknights destroyed 10 wraiths over the course of the game in combat. Meanwhile one unit of 5 tacs held up a full wraith unit for 4 cc phases. They didnt inflict any damage but they didnt have to because the damage was done just by surviving.
Nah, minimal harvests are only 230ish. This isn't really theory hammer for me anymore. I've run them and gotten our cron players to run them that way. They cause just as much trouble and disruption as a full harvest, but allow for a much more fleshed out army to support them.
Needless to say the cron games around here have been very one-sided games.
I can see the usefulness in MSU harvests. However at that point you could take a full squad of nilla wraiths that doesn't have the weak spot of a spyder built in. Meh its good either way, just depends on what you want I guess. I don't feel that 3 wraiths are very threatening though, at least not against armies like GK, SW etc. Now if your meta is largely tau/DE/Eldar etc, i.e. armies with a distinct lack of combat oriented units then its probably another story.
Hmm not bad.
Gates and H&R lists should do fine since the wraiths cant really turn around and omnomnom them for safety
I would of turned the spiders and scarabs around onto the drop pod marines asap to keep em from getting cented or shot personally. but thats depends on the actual map and where they came in :/
Cant wait to see more lists and stuff.
I agree. These abilities are key as it allows you to turn their durability against them since they won't usually kill anything tougher than meq in one round. Its also worth noting that these two abilities are still pretty accessible for most of the higher end armies. Again thats why they need fire support.
On the DP marines you'd have to see the battlefield. I dropped my first pod in my DZ on top of obj 2. The second pod I sent after obj 1 in his DZ once the major threat had moved away from it. Essentially the wraiths had to rushed my main source of firepower because what else could they do.
The game ended with only 2 night scythes and 2 wraiths left.
Let's say people are running 6 Wraiths in their units.
How many would one need to kill to 'weaken' them to the point where they aren't as scary any more?
Are that four, three or even more models you need to kill?
I think that with an Harvest you should either take the Spyder out or slow him down to force the Wraiths out of range.
After that they are only half as durable.
krodarklorr wrote: See everyone? The answer to Wraith cheese is to bring something just as cheesy. Yay!
Gotta love this game, right?
Isn't that the definition of cheese?
If there were simpler ways to kill cheese, it wouldn't be called cheese..
I am building my Necron cheese now but am only using a CAD and one harvest because that is ITC legal. Even though I don't play in tournaments, i think ITC is becoming something of a social contract boundaries for the competitive minded players.
that said, my list has max wraiths and scarabs and weigh of dice should cause more than anger, frustration an complete demoralization for my opponents.
(FYI, I normally play marines and was looking for a way to have speed and CC ability. Surprisingly, Necrons seem to do this best! I am not your average bandwagon jumper)
I had my wraiths tango with a warboss+20 or so boys with lucky stick and a unit of 3 meganobs for 4 rounds. On round 3 the spyder died so the wraiths lost FnP for round 4. They did a serious number in return though. taking out all 3 meganobs with a lucky rend roll, and taking out +10 boys before going down.
With the old D-lord/mindschakle trick the warboss would have killed himself, or the D-lord would have killed him and the combat would have ended much sooner.
Wraiths are not nearly as killy without the D-lord, who usually did most of the heavy lifting anyway. They are still dangerous, the T5 was awesome, as orks were only wounding on 6s, and the +3/+4 had them hanging out a lot longer. It gave the rest of my army time to lay the hurt on him. 5 ignore cover tomb blades did plenty of damage in the one shooting phase they had. Next time I will play smarter with them.
Hang on can't you just "wrap" your important units in an expendable cheap throwaway unit that the wraiths have to chew through to get to your important squads?
So say you have your Cent squad and you just wrap a unit of scouts around it so the wraiths can't get into base contact with the cents, should allow you an extra turn to shoot and kill the wraiths.
Punisher wrote: Hang on can't you just "wrap" your important units in an expendable cheap throwaway unit that the wraiths have to chew through to get to your important squads?
So say you have your Cent squad and you just wrap a unit of scouts around it so the wraiths can't get into base contact with the cents, should allow you an extra turn to shoot and kill the wraiths.
Assuming the scouts dont die or run at an unfortunate time
The only problem with bubble wrapping your units is that the wraiths can muti charge and depending on how well you bubble wrapped them the wraiths will just be getting two in one.
Also how cheap are scouts? I know they are light weight but they are marines which means they're expensive (relatively at least)
Automatically Appended Next Post: I have several wraiths and the most effective thing that seems to kill me has been ork killa cans. I think its the armor eleven and the fact that you cant attack the back armor that really slows them down.
Thing 2.0 wrote: The only problem with bubble wrapping your units is that the wraiths can muti charge and depending on how well you bubble wrapped them the wraiths will just be getting two in one. Also how cheap are scouts? I know they are light weight but they are marines which means they're expensive (relatively at least)
Automatically Appended Next Post: I have several wraiths and the most effective thing that seems to kill me has been ork killa cans. I think its the armor eleven and the fact that you cant attack the back armor that really slows them down.
you get half a infantry squad for the same price. but with better armor and T4
Edit: You should be able to rend through a few of those. but yeah a big unit of walkers could do ok i think
Otherwise enough mass bodies with some kinda good save (like a 4+ invul or FNP should hold them down for the rest of the game (like grotesques (also there ID weapons should be good use)))
I played with my wraith wing this past weekend and found that although the wraiths were killy, it was their resilience that made them mean. S6 rending is great, but it was their 3++ invul that kept them alive all game. that RP is not even necessary.
gwarsh41 wrote: I had my wraiths tango with a warboss+20 or so boys with lucky stick and a unit of 3 meganobs for 4 rounds. On round 3 the spyder died so the wraiths lost FnP for round 4. They did a serious number in return though. taking out all 3 meganobs with a lucky rend roll, and taking out +10 boys before going down.
With the old D-lord/mindschakle trick the warboss would have killed himself, or the D-lord would have killed him and the combat would have ended much sooner.
Wraiths are not nearly as killy without the D-lord, who usually did most of the heavy lifting anyway. They are still dangerous, the T5 was awesome, as orks were only wounding on 6s, and the +3/+4 had them hanging out a lot longer. It gave the rest of my army time to lay the hurt on him. 5 ignore cover tomb blades did plenty of damage in the one shooting phase they had. Next time I will play smarter with them.
I'd just like to mirror your remarks with my own.
Played Necrons this past weekend. Keep in mind I KILLED the Spyder in Turn 1 before the Wraiths got into Assault. So other than my first turn of shooting, the Wraiths didn't get Reanimation Protocols. When I DID shoot at them (had nothing better to shoot with turn 1) It was basically like firing nerf balls at a brick wall.
From then on, Turn 2 until we called the game at the bottom of 5, the Wraiths were in combat.
I had 20 Boyz with a PK Nob, Warboss, and Painboy in combat with them. Turn 3, I added 3 MegaNobz to that combat.
The Orks managed to put 1 wound on the Wraiths. The Warboss managed to kill 4 of them (over 4 full player turns of combat) because he could Instant Death them. The Meganobz only put ONE wound on ONE wraith.
At the end of turn 4, where we called the game because I was similarly elsewhere decimated....
I lost all the MegaNobz (but this wasn't due to Wraiths this was because he charged a unit of Lichguard into combat with them) and I only had the Warboss and the Painboy left. There were 2 Wraiths left.
Without the addition of the Lichguard killing my MegaNobz, maybe I would have been able to come out on top with another game turn or so... but still the Wraiths mowed their way through 20 Boyz, and were essentially unkillable in return.
As Orks, I honestly don't know what my options are to deal with this unit. It's ridiculous. My best ideas are a Morkanaut or a Stompa or Ghazzghul. Shooting them just isn't an option. They'll be in Assault turn 2 pretty much guaranteed. Even then, as my example showed, you can't have this unit exist in a vacuum. The opponent can toss some Lichguard in to deal with Ghazzghul or Meganobz.
Indeed, they do their job wonderfully for their point cost, generally tying up far more of the opponent's army than they cost, or killing them if you let them past the CC boys and into the squishy backfield support, which lets more of their army fight less of your army.
If they had some broken TAC shooting unit on par with serpents, they could just run that and harvests and call it a day in most games.
niv-mizzet wrote: Indeed, they do their job wonderfully for their point cost, generally tying up far more of the opponent's army than they cost, or killing them if you let them past the CC boys and into the squishy backfield support, which lets more of their army fight less of your army.
If they had some broken TAC shooting unit on par with serpents, they could just run that and harvests and call it a day in most games.
My upcoming tournamnet 1850 list will include many units of Grots and of course a Stompa. The worst thing about the Wraiths IMHO is that they are Fearless. Thankfully the Stompa causes all Ork units to be Fearless as well.
So the Wraiths will either be attacking 3 pt grots or a self-sustaining Stompa. Or both.
As for anyone else, I know there are ways to deny Fearless out there. Is that an option anyone is thinking of using?
Well the stompa will be downed by either shooting or scarabs.
Wraiths will have 4 attacks on the charge hitting on 3s and wounding on 2s. If privy to formation special rules, it may have shred as well. That tarpit won't last too long.
Grots?
If he's a half decent player, he'll be taking Tomb Blades. Many people run the cover save denying S6 blast slinging variety. If he's got more than 5 of those, your hordes of Grots may be pretty thinned out by the time they're anywhere near Wraiths... though I'm doubtful a Necron would use Wraiths to fight Grots...
Got another game in with my crons and found the wraiths performed ok again. A couple got stuck in a prolonged cc with some tac marines. Others held their own but got pretty beat up by a suped up thunder wolf unit. That is to be expected though.
Are Wraiths Fearless? Haven't had a chance to face them with a Freakshow yet, but Necrons seem like they'd be susceptible to CWE/DE/Harlie leadership shenanigans.
Jimsolo wrote: Are Wraiths Fearless? Haven't had a chance to face them yet, but Necrons seem like they'd be susceptible to CWE/DE/Harlie leadership shenanigans.
Jimsolo wrote: Are Wraiths Fearless? Haven't had a chance to face them yet, but Necrons seem like they'd be susceptible to CWE/DE/Harlie leadership shenanigans.
Yup all canoptek things are fearless.
'K. So Soulfright is out. Dominate, Psychic Shriek, Mirror of Minds, and Laugh of Sorrows are all still in, though.
Jimsolo wrote: Are Wraiths Fearless? Haven't had a chance to face them yet, but Necrons seem like they'd be susceptible to CWE/DE/Harlie leadership shenanigans.
Yup all canoptek things are fearless.
'K. So Soulfright is out. Dominate, Psychic Shriek, Mirror of Minds, and Laugh of Sorrows are all still in, though.
I've had two units of 5 grotesques eventually lose combat after about 4 full turns of combat. Opponent had a full squad of wraiths, a destroyer lord with a 2+, aND the named character that allows the whole unit to reroll 1's. They slow the unit down, but MAN is it hard to kill. I learned to just throw small units at it and kill everything else first.
DirtyDeeds wrote: I've had two units of 5 grotesques eventually lose combat after about 4 full turns of combat. Opponent had a full squad of wraiths, a destroyer lord with a 2+, aND the named character that allows the whole unit to reroll 1's. They slow the unit down, but MAN is it hard to kill. I learned to just throw small units at it and kill everything else first.
We're the rolls about statistically average? I haven't crunched the math on Grotesques vs Wraiths, but that was one of my first thoughts as well.
DirtyDeeds wrote: I've had two units of 5 grotesques eventually lose combat after about 4 full turns of combat. Opponent had a full squad of wraiths, a destroyer lord with a 2+, aND the named character that allows the whole unit to reroll 1's. They slow the unit down, but MAN is it hard to kill. I learned to just throw small units at it and kill everything else first.
I wish more people would get this.
Stop worrying about trying to kill them and just worry about keeping them tied up. If your opponent can't use them how he wants to, that's pretty much removing them from the table for a few turns.
DirtyDeeds wrote: I've had two units of 5 grotesques eventually lose combat after about 4 full turns of combat. Opponent had a full squad of wraiths, a destroyer lord with a 2+, aND the named character that allows the whole unit to reroll 1's. They slow the unit down, but MAN is it hard to kill. I learned to just throw small units at it and kill everything else first.
Not a bad approach. Remember to make sure that he is playing it correctly.
You need to have the resurrection protocols special rule in order to gain the re-roll ones ability, so unless the Wraiths are in the Canoptek Harvest formation and the Spyder is still alive and giving them that buff, they can't benefit from Orikan's rule
The whole unit loses fleet and can be slowed by terrain on the charge (if Orikan or the Lord have to go through it)
You can typically outflank (the actual maneuver, not the deployment method) the tanking destroyer lord, or get lucky when he rolls poorly on his assault move to jump back towards the front of the unit now. Since he only moves 6" in the movement phase, a bad 2d6 assault roll will mean he can't tank small arms fire. Take advantage of those openings when they appear.
DirtyDeeds wrote: I've had two units of 5 grotesques eventually lose combat after about 4 full turns of combat. Opponent had a full squad of wraiths, a destroyer lord with a 2+, aND the named character that allows the whole unit to reroll 1's. They slow the unit down, but MAN is it hard to kill. I learned to just throw small units at it and kill everything else first.
I wish more people would get this.
Stop worrying about trying to kill them and just worry about keeping them tied up. If your opponent can't use them how he wants to, that's pretty much removing them from the table for a few turns.
Well on the other hand, Wraiths are often doing the same thing. With my Wraiths I try to tie up Bike Command Squads, Wraithknights, scary Daemons, etc - anything that the 2W/3++ will be good at absorbing. Rarely do I use them as a high-output hammer, usually I rely on the rest of the army to do the damage. So it really becomes a game of who gets a better pick with their beefy tarpit unit.
DirtyDeeds wrote: I've had two units of 5 grotesques eventually lose combat after about 4 full turns of combat. Opponent had a full squad of wraiths, a destroyer lord with a 2+, aND the named character that allows the whole unit to reroll 1's. They slow the unit down, but MAN is it hard to kill. I learned to just throw small units at it and kill everything else first.
I wish more people would get this.
Stop worrying about trying to kill them and just worry about keeping them tied up. If your opponent can't use them how he wants to, that's pretty much removing them from the table for a few turns.
In my last game with this opponent, I used my White Scars and Ravenwing list to great effect. I road blocked his wraith squad to assault my centurions, which tanked them like a boss and hit and run out of there. It's quite entertaining to watch those things run 3d6 across the board. Anyways, I nuked the rest of his army, including the Spyder before he could give reanimation, and saved the wraiths for the very end.
Spoletta wrote: Anything with blind is a great weapon against those guys, they are I2 when takings blind tests, both in the shooting phase and assault phase.
I don´t know about you but I only face I5 Wraiths (whip coils). But let me tell you how good it feels to blind ~600 points of warriors and immortals with one Warp Talon Squad :3
with 17 
