Still hoping that they just had a typo and correct the rules that have leaked so far, but I doubt it... cause GW...
So for everybody who hasnt noticed it , here a short summary of the changes:
Wraith are beasts now. So 12", no difficult Terrain tests and FLEET. So they will catch you faster than before. ---> buff
They can get I5 (for 3 Points if i got it right) instead of reducing the Ini of every opponent in base contact to 1, which means, that they will hit before most other units except some HQs, eldar and nids. ---> buff
They are now T5, so no Insta-Killing anymore. Combined with their 3++ this means we got the following gain in durability:
S3 - 100% durability gain - average 36 hits for a kill
S4 - 50 % durability gain - average 18 hits for a kill
S5 - 33 % durability gain - average 12 hits for a kill
S6 - 25 % durability gain - average 9 hits for a kill
S7 - 0% durability gain - average 7.2 hits for a kill
S8 - 100% durability gain - Cause no IK - average 7.2 hits for a kill
S9 - 100% durability gain - Cause no IK - average 7.2 hits for a kill
S10 - 0% durability gain - average 3.6 hits for a kill
---> BIG BUFF
They are also S6, with rending and 3 attacks.
And all for just 40 Points (43 with I5) per wraith.
This means, that Guardsmen need 72 Lasgun shots to kill 1 wraith.
Marines with BF4 and Bolters need 27 shots. Even with plasma a Marine needs 10,8 shots. Remember that you loose a Plasma every 18 shots due to gets hot xD.
On the other hand a turn 2 charge should be normal. Turn 1: move 12", run (with fleet) -Turn2 move 12"- charge (with fleet)
Once in CC they can wreck nearly eveything, thanks to I5, S6, rending and a high amount of attacks.
3 full Units of 6 wraith cost about 720 to 774 points!!!
So how are we supposed to fight wraith spam? Tell me your ideas. Codex doesnt matter.
At least, my DE mostly dont care because of poison, high Ini and speed, but for my marines its getting even harder... Remember, wraith cost as much as Storm-Termies... without shields... and are better in any way...
Have your stats accounted for the Decurion formation, which gives them a 4+ Re-animation Protocols?
As a Nid player...I dunno how I'm going to deal with Wraithwing. Maybe FMC spam so they can't get to me. But then with 12 inch movement, they are going to rek in Maelstrom.
As a DE player...mm poison could work? But a Venom musters 1.32 wounds, less from Decurion. So from 10 Venoms you could statistically kill a unit of Wraiths. But you've still got two more units to deal with - and the rest of the army.
Dakkafang Dreggrim wrote: I don't see them as broken. They are just T5 now. Unless they can repair now, but don't think they can.
Really
buffing something that people have been spamming so hard because its so consistently decent? it should be served with eggs and a coffee
There is a formation that lets them RP
hoping the necron players roll super bad, or using invisible things to tar pit them forever is pretty much going to be the only way till D weapons and superheavys become more accepted.
Dakkafang Dreggrim wrote: I play orks, I just down them with weight of attacks and shots like I did before.
T5 will be annoying but, not broken OP.
You realize that a unit of 6 (IIRC is the right size) will take over 100 st4 hits just to kill. 216 hits with fabricator formation thing. and this should fit at low points.
Weight of numbers will still bring them down. BA strike simultaneously with them on the charge and can keep up with them for mobility. Baal predators will still rip into them pretty well. Sanguinary guard hit them on 3s and wound on 4s or 3s. Frag pods are still good against them as well.
Other marine armies may struggle a bit more but still have options. Rad grenade+melta from dark angels, thunderwolves from space puppies, etc. Vanilla marines will just have to adjust their tactics. Maybe we'll see fewer centurions and more vindicators.
th3maninblak wrote: Weight of numbers will still bring them down. BA strike simultaneously with them on the charge and can keep up with them for mobility. Baal predators will still rip into them pretty well. Sanguinary guard hit them on 3s and wound on 4s or 3s. Frag pods are still good against them as well.
Other marine armies may struggle a bit more but still have options. Rad grenade+melta from dark angels, thunderwolves from space puppies, etc. Vanilla marines will just have to adjust their tactics. Maybe we'll see fewer centurions and more vindicators.
Space puppy polo team would do ok i think fo sure.
Id figure cents would be fine its still 15 3+s and 3 chest missles per turn. just shoot and scoot. and chuck some speed bumps on the way
Dakkafang Dreggrim wrote: I play orks, I just down them with weight of attacks and shots like I did before.
T5 will be annoying but, not broken OP.
You realize that a unit of 6 (IIRC is the right size) will take over 100 st4 hits just to kill. 216 hits with fabricator formation thing. and this should fit at low points.
can you as an ork player bring the heat?
Im not saying its broken
but its definitely hitting over powered status.
It will take 80 ish attacks to kill 30 ork boyz (1unit) if no wraith die I. With only 3 attacks each that's almost 5 rounds of combat. 30 boyz are cheaper than 6 wraiths. And that's if the orks don't kill any and don't have fnp them selves.
I think the decurion reanimation protocol buff only buffs things WITH the reanimation protocol rule. All the canoptic stuff does not (unless i missed that romour and now they do).
McGibs wrote: I think the decurion reanimation protocol buff only buffs things WITH the reanimation protocol rule. All the canoptic stuff does not (unless i missed that romour and now they do).
Canoptek Formation lets the Spyders buff all formation members within 12 inches of them with one of the following rules, chosen at the start of each turn:
Shred,
Fleet,
Reanimation Protocols.
Also if you're playing a Decurion detachment all members get +1 to reanimation.
My real question is if it's worth the Decurion and the Canoptek formation to buff the wraiths like that. I mean, everyone gets 4+ RP (and the stuff from the reclamation legion will re-roll RP results of 1, which is situafional at best but not bad obviously).
You introduce more objective scoring units for sure, and scarabs are a nice fast tarpit that can at least glance a vehicle to death in a turn or two. The Spyder is a slow MC (but a tough MC that has a 3+ w/effective 4+ FNP that only changes to a 5+ in the face of instant death. Not too shabby for a 50 point unit.
Losing obsec is unfortunate and it might be worth investigating how to get some in the list (probably a Necron CAD/allies) but it's just so many troops. Maybe Necron allies with a cryptek or a barge lord to get at least 1 obsec unit (either in a GA or NS) would help fix that, but then you just have a unit with a huge late-game target on its back.....
Sorry for tangent. Back to the OP's question, volume of fire is still the answer. Preferably something that doesn't wound on 5/6, but wraiths are still vulnerable to volume of fire. Less so now, but there are ways around it. If they have RP, kill the Spyder/position your units so that the wraiths either lose effective range or the RP to maximize their threat range. If they don't have RP, you don't have too much to worry about. A few dead wraiths is a big hit to their combat effectiveness. They will often be hitting on 4 and with no d lord to buff their 1's, they're not as monstrous as they used to be (plus no bonus for that pistol nonsense)
Automatically Appended Next Post: This is a pretty good compilation of most of the leaks thus far:
felixcat wrote: What is their LD - how does psychic shriek against them.
They're leadership 10.
Byte wrote: Seems like a cryptic thread discussing rules that aren't readily available yet.
Seems like you haven't been following the rumors thread, and thus haven't seen the pictures taken directly from the new codex showing unit profiles.
Seems you are correct. I will go through the 100 pages find the post and post it here as to give this thread more credibility before the official release.
Byte if you just search the interwebs, the leaks are all over the place. I'll be at my FLGS tomorrow to sneak a peak myself. I don't know where the response to your previous comment went (deleted I suppose) but it''s not crazy for someone to err on the side of caution with copyrighted material. Technically in the context of a review, you can quote snippets, but we do run a bit of a fine line here since everyone wants to know and talk about everything.
Also, the OP did post most of the relevant changes for wraiths in his opening remarks. They are now T5 instead of T4, potentially have access to reanimation protocols (which now effectively work like FNP, but can only ever be a 4+ at max and one higher (so a 5+ in the case of a 4+) in the event of instant death). They have higher initiative and are not denied by charging through terrain so combat is more difficult. Overall, they're just really tough to deal with now. Not quite screamerstar tough, but I mean what is?
luke1705 wrote: Byte if you just search the interwebs, the leaks are all over the place. I'll be at my FLGS tomorrow to sneak a peak myself. I don't know where the response to your previous comment went (deleted I suppose) but it''s not crazy for someone to err on the side of caution with copyrighted material. Technically in the context of a review, you can quote snippets, but we do run a bit of a fine line here since everyone wants to know and talk about everything.
Also, the OP did post most of the relevant changes for wraiths in his opening remarks. They are now T5 instead of T4, potentially have access to reanimation protocols (which now effectively work like FNP, but can only ever be a 4+ at max and one higher (so a 5+ in the case of a 4+) in the event of instant death). They have higher initiative and are not denied by charging through terrain so combat is more difficult. Overall, they're just really tough to deal with now. Not quite screamerstar tough, but I mean what is?
Thank you for your coherent and comprehensive response. Its sincerely appreciated.
You will be even more jealous when you realize how badly they own the Toxicrene. Wraiths hit on 3's, are practically guaranteed the charge (so 4 attacks each) and although they don't go first it really doesn't matter. Assume you have two Toxicrenes that get multicharged to make the points more even (320 Nids vs 258 Necrons) they'll have the lash whips because why not. Toxicrenes average 6 hits, 4 wounds, 1.33 of which get past the invuln but only .67 get past the wraiths RP (a fair assumption to balance out the 60 point discrepancy). Technically it's marginally better than that because some of the wounds will be instant death, doubling the wound pool and changing the RP roll to a 5+ instead of the 4+, but you're still only getting barely above a single wound on average.
Then the wraiths hit back like a truck. 24 attacks, 16 hits, 8 wounds. 2.7 wounds don't allow an armor save, and the remaining 5.3 will result in 2.8 unsaved wounds (Toxicrene armor OP) meaning a dead Toxicrene on average. It only gets better from there sadly. The Dimachaeron fares slightly better if he can get the FNP, but he's still not going to win. It's just going to take longer for him to die.
felixcat wrote: What is their LD - how does psychic shriek against them.
They're leadership 10.
Byte wrote: Seems like a cryptic thread discussing rules that aren't readily available yet.
Seems like you haven't been following the rumors thread, and thus haven't seen the pictures taken directly from the new codex showing unit profiles.
Seems you are correct. I will go through the 100 pages find the post and post it here as to give this thread more credibility before the official release.
felixcat wrote: What is their LD - how does psychic shriek against them.
They're leadership 10.
Byte wrote: Seems like a cryptic thread discussing rules that aren't readily available yet.
Seems like you haven't been following the rumors thread, and thus haven't seen the pictures taken directly from the new codex showing unit profiles.
Seems you are correct. I will go through the 100 pages find the post and post it here as to give this thread more credibility before the official release.
These updates sound terrifying. As an AM player, t4 was doable through weight of fire. Now they are t5. Not sure how to stop more than one unit of these at the same time. Pask you are my only hope. Massed infantry won't do very well anymore needing 6's to wound, even with a priest. And the wraiths have number of attacks to mulch the unit. Wyverns won't cut it if they space properly. I don't want to have to ally imperial knights all the time.
Bonachinonin wrote: These updates sound terrifying. As an AM player, t4 was doable through weight of fire. Now they are t5. Not sure how to stop more than one unit of these at the same time. Pask you are my only hope. Massed infantry won't do very well anymore needing 6's to wound, even with a priest. And the wraiths have number of attacks to mulch the unit. Wyverns won't cut it if they space properly. I don't want to have to ally imperial knights all the time.
Agreed when I played VS wraithwing my SWLF spam would save my bacon with MLID.
The greentide should be able to handle them. However that's a 1000 point detachmenf if buffed correctly. You have 102-103 models with aprox 300+ atks (400+ if you charge) at str3 (4 on charge) they can also move 6, run d6, and charge 2d6 the same turn and reroll charge roll. They are toughness 4 and have 5+fnp are fearless and you generally have at least 7 Powerklaws in the list for 20+ (~30 if you charge) str 8 (str9 on charge) ap2 hits all at WS4. They even have HOW if you roll charge distance high enough. That's the typical greentide list however I've seen people take a weirdboy for deny the witch and assault buffs (+1 atk or +2 str to all) or a big Mek/warlord w lucky stikk for +1 ws to the entire tide maybe even a kff for a 5++ to the Orks in front.
But other then this one list few armies have the ability to tie up a unit like this and most of the meta is built around tougher high save high toughness elite units. Where fast moving assault units with lots of rending atks cause major problems.
Bonachinonin wrote: These updates sound terrifying. As an AM player, t4 was doable through weight of fire. Now they are t5. Not sure how to stop more than one unit of these at the same time. Pask you are my only hope. Massed infantry won't do very well anymore needing 6's to wound, even with a priest. And the wraiths have number of attacks to mulch the unit. Wyverns won't cut it if they space properly. I don't want to have to ally imperial knights all the time.
Yeah. This sounds nuts. I thought GW was in a "Nerf things which were good in 5th" mindset of late. Did not see crazy buffs to one of the mainstay min/max units we've seen out of the last book.
So, they're basically TWC with built in stormshields and loosing fleet the moment someone joins them cause there are no cavalry cron lords?..So, what's the big deal?
As a deathwing and orks player, I'm not overly worried about it.
s8 fists against them, even with a 3++, i'm still going to take some to all down in one round of combat. they've got rending, which is annoying, but not reliable. In addition, i've got my anti everything unit: THE DEFFWANG KNIGHTS. People always laugh at me when I take them, but they crap themselves when i get in combat with anything with them and smite. ID'ing these fools? check. Taking down any monstrous creature easily? check.
and orks...power klaws. If i can get my warboss in there, so much the better, with my s 10 PK attacks. t5 and a 3++ are cute, but i've got 30 boys with a power klaw'ed nob/warboss who will throw so many wounds on you that it doesn't even matter.
I'm surprised they got buffed, but honestly, i'm not worried.
It's the minimum squad size for wraiths. What's weird is it's basically a better version some what of the old , Destroyer Lord / Wraiths combo, but now you don't need the Destroyer Lord.
50 for Spyder
60 for 3 Scarabs
240 for 6 Wraiths and 3 points per whip coil means 258 total
So 368 altogether
Dominus you are correct but the Canoptek formation can grant the wraiths RP. It gives one of three special rules to each unit for a given turn (can choose the same rule multiple times in a row if you want). The choices are shred, RP, and I believe the last one is relentless
koooaei wrote: So, they're basically TWC with built in stormshields and loosing fleet the moment someone joins them cause there are no cavalry cron lords?..So, what's the big deal?
The big deal is that they're actually 10+ points cheaper per model than TWC with storm shields, they can jump over intervening terrain/units, they strike at Initiative 5, and they can easily get access to 4+ FnP that isn't completely ignored by strength 10 or instant death. Thunderwolf Calvary are quite solid and these are *almost* strictly better in every way.
As to how to fight them "effectively", I think psychic powers are the way to go. Invisibility means a full unit is only getting ~3 hits per turn. Endurance on a lot of units will massively slow them down - even basic MEQ become super tough (again, a full unit of Wraiths killing only 2 marines per round).
ancraig wrote: As a deathwing and orks player, I'm not overly worried about it.
s8 fists against them, even with a 3++, i'm still going to take some to all down in one round of combat. they've got rending, which is annoying, but not reliable. In addition, i've got my anti everything unit: THE DEFFWANG KNIGHTS. People always laugh at me when I take them, but they crap themselves when i get in combat with anything with them and smite. ID'ing these fools? check. Taking down any monstrous creature easily? check.
and orks...power klaws. If i can get my warboss in there, so much the better, with my s 10 PK attacks. t5 and a 3++ are cute, but i've got 30 boys with a power klaw'ed nob/warboss who will throw so many wounds on you that it doesn't even matter.
I'm surprised they got buffed, but honestly, i'm not worried.
Knights are annoying due to their invuln but wraiths will swing first (and way first vs a PK). But the issue really is that you're not just going up against a 3++ now. It's a 3++ and then they take another 4++ whenever they're about to take a wound from their failed 3++. Basically a 2++. Not easy to get around for anything. Oh you're strength 10? So now they take their 3++ and take a 5++. Knights have what, 2 base attacks? Let's assume that they have 3 (because I don't know for sure). Wraiths hit first and will get the charge. Period. So they shoot out 24 attacks, 12 hits, 10 wounds (8 if the Knights have their T bonus) so that's 1.5 invuln roughly or 1 dead knight. They swing back with now 12 attacks, 8 hits, 7 wounds (roughly) which translates to 2.3 failed 3++. After the 5++ there are 1.5 dead wraiths and the Knights are now screwed. Regular terminators don't even ID wraiths so it's entirely possible that a wraith will suffer only a single wound vs regular terminators. Hidden PK's what, 5 attacks at most? 3.3 hits, 2.8 wounds, 1 failed 3++, .7 failed 5++. They just won't die to anything anymore
Not a necron player and not following the release nearly as much as the Harlequins release, so forgive a question. Quick search hasn't produced a screen shot or leak of full stat line. Are they still 2W? I'm assuming no....
To the people saying they will throw 200-300 str 3/4 hits on wraiths... Have you run the math hammer on it? All I can say is.. Be prepared to be disappointed. This Is without the possibility of a res orb being in there for Lols.200 str 3 attacks kills 1 wraith on average and not even that with a res orb turn .
It's true they're incredibly durable. However there's opportunity cost involved for accessing RP. And again the reduction in fire power of cron mech is pretty severe not to mention increased cost and increased troops cost. It's a trade off. That said I like the direction they went I think the dex has quite a bit of potential without being busted.
Dash2021 wrote: Not a necron player and not following the release nearly as much as the Harlequins release, so forgive a question. Quick search hasn't produced a screen shot or leak of full stat line. Are they still 2W? I'm assuming no....
That they are. 5 points more for the increase in toughness. As a Necron player, I'll take that trade all day long
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Jpr wrote: To the people saying they will throw 200-300 str 3/4 hits on wraiths... Have you run the math hammer on it? All I can say is.. Be prepared to be disappointed. This Is without the possibility of a res orb being in there for Lols.200 str 3 attacks kills 1 wraith on average and not even that with a res orb turn .
For each Squad of Wraiths, I send in a squad of Flesh Hounds. They can hold them up for a time if I can get a charge in. Grimoire can go on one, Invisibility can go to the other, and Be'lakor will go Spyder-hunting.
Not sure where to put the rest of my points though.
ancraig wrote: As a deathwing and orks player, I'm not overly worried about it.
s8 fists against them, even with a 3++, i'm still going to take some to all down in one round of combat. they've got rending, which is annoying, but not reliable. In addition, i've got my anti everything unit: THE DEFFWANG KNIGHTS. People always laugh at me when I take them, but they crap themselves when i get in combat with anything with them and smite. ID'ing these fools? check. Taking down any monstrous creature easily? check.
and orks...power klaws. If i can get my warboss in there, so much the better, with my s 10 PK attacks. t5 and a 3++ are cute, but i've got 30 boys with a power klaw'ed nob/warboss who will throw so many wounds on you that it doesn't even matter.
I'm surprised they got buffed, but honestly, i'm not worried.
Knights are annoying due to their invuln but wraiths will swing first (and way first vs a PK). But the issue really is that you're not just going up against a 3++ now. It's a 3++ and then they take another 4++ whenever they're about to take a wound from their failed 3++. Basically a 2++. Not easy to get around for anything. Oh you're strength 10? So now they take their 3++ and take a 5++. Knights have what, 2 base attacks? Let's assume that they have 3 (because I don't know for sure). Wraiths hit first and will get the charge. Period. So they shoot out 24 attacks, 12 hits, 10 wounds (8 if the Knights have their T bonus) so that's 1.5 invuln roughly or 1 dead knight. They swing back with now 12 attacks, 8 hits, 7 wounds (roughly) which translates to 2.3 failed 3++. After the 5++ there are 1.5 dead wraiths and the Knights are now screwed. Regular terminators don't even ID wraiths so it's entirely possible that a wraith will suffer only a single wound vs regular terminators. Hidden PK's what, 5 attacks at most? 3.3 hits, 2.8 wounds, 1 failed 3++, .7 failed 5++. They just won't die to anything anymore
totally wasn't aware they had access to reanimation protocols, much less with re-rolls. I thought everyone was spazzing over them getting an extra pip of toughness.
jesus, that's horrifying.
I can't imagine how my BA are going to attempt to handle any decent number of wraiths with RP. At the same or less point value at that. They just seem ludicrously good.
I need to remind everyone believing just killing the spyders will be a solution, that the spyder itself is T6 3W and gets the 4RP as well and more importantly it's drawing fire from the wraiths.
As long the spyder moves the full 6" and keeps running, the 12" bubble isn't really hard to keep up on the wraith as long the wraith strings out to leave one model in the bubble. The Spyder is a pretty small model, can be hidden easily as well. It doesn't mean you can always see it !
The spyder and scarabs aren't "tax", they're so cheap and can help perform scoring duties.
To those saying weight of attacks, just try rolling against T5 2W 3++ and 4+ Reanimation Protocols.
So far only my Tau have the best shot at removing the spyders asap. Putting AP2 ignore cover weaponry on the sypders so they only have the 4+ Reanimation.
They only get RA if they are in that specific formation and near the slower spyder.
Just... shoot the Spyder down, then the Wraiths. If the Wraiths had outpaced the Spyder, no issue.
A small part of me hopes theirs a week two or so faq that fixes them back to T4. You know, because it'll just be long enough after the release that people will have bought them already.
I like how a lot of people's responses on how to counter the new wraiths involve the most broken spell in the game. I'm pretty sure if you have a decent combat unit, and turn them invis..they'll take on anything, and at the very least tar pit like no tomorrow.
A small part of me hopes theirs a week two or so faq that fixes them back to T4. You know, because it'll just be long enough after the release that people will have bought them already.
I find the funny part about the kill the spyder deal is that I plan on using the scarabs as a buffer between the spyder and nearly everything else. Now the spyder gets a cover save. t6 w3 3+/5+cover/4+rp. And if you are shooting the spyder you are using up a unit to not shoot at something more deadly (a lot of other things).
It's all kinda full circle The wraiths the deadlist of the three are given a RP by the spyder who can be shielded by the scarabs who are then healed by....the spyder. Should have named this formation the Paradox Formation, or Shield/sword formation.
And Wraiths are still gona be deadly even without RP.
Luckilly, i'm an ork player who can just tarpit them for at least a couple of rounds. But yep, if all's true i clearly see them being 'top tier' broken in conjuration with other stuff like Apocalyptic pieplates here and there.
I love these sky is falling threads! So much fun. But the truth is competitive players will just spam more wraiths instead of clunky lynchpin units because it's better.
Also remember folks wraiths got more durable but they aren't all that killy. We're still only talking about 18 ws4 attacks base here. I've seen them stuck on meqs quite a few times. They are definitely hard to get rid of and might alone be enough to shift the meta from shoot and scoot armies. That said TWC are still better for reasons were all probably familiar with.
Ok so I really wanna take this idea to its realistically abuseable limit.
It must be run from a Decurion Detachment, which requires a Reclamation Legion first and foremost
Reclamation Legion (minimum requirements):
-Overlord (80? Don't have the pts on him but seems about right compared to Lord and Destroyer Lord)
-1 unit of 5 Immortals (85 pts)
-2 units of 10 Warriors (260 pts)
-1 unit of 3 Tomb Blades (~60? not sure on exact points for these guys)
If you wanna run something like the Wraithwing of old, but with Super Wraiths, it comes to 1650. That only leaves room for 1 Nightscythe possibly 2, if you drop all the upgrades from each Tomb Spyder. I only really see running 2 Canoptek Formations in an 1850 and retaining anything resembling balance. 2 Canoptek Harvests sounds + and Obelisk sounds pretty damn scary though. And possibly one of the most durable armies in the games.
There might be the possibility to hande a unit of wraith, with Invi or unit XY, but the problem is still? Is it effective? How many Points do you have to spend for that solution and how do you handle the rest of necron force and the other 2 units of wraith? And dont forget, ifyou want to tarpit them, you have to get them first. 12" + ignore Terrain means that they pick their fights most of the time.
I love these sky is falling threads! So much fun.
The Thing is, this thread wasnt ment as sky is falling thread. I wanted to hear solutions. But the only Solutions I ve read so far are using OP stuff or rather ineffective.
Its like with WS. There might be some answers, but not every army has them. Tarpitting with boys might work, if you can get them at full strength. But what can the other armies do?
dominuschao wrote: I love these sky is falling threads! So much fun. But the truth is competitive players will just spam more wraiths instead of clunky lynchpin units because it's better.
Also remember folks wraiths got more durable but they aren't all that killy. We're still only talking about 18 ws4 attacks base here. I've seen them stuck on meqs quite a few times. They are definitely hard to get rid of and might alone be enough to shift the meta from shoot and scoot armies. That said TWC are still better for reasons were all probably familiar with.
I agree with most of this. I would not say that TWC are flat out better though, just different.
I think most people aren't considering that if doing the Decurion thing for buffed RP, you have to put 7 units on the table before you get even your first unit of Wraiths. Those 7 units aren't the killiest things in the dex either, and 3 of them really require a transport to be useful (Immortals and 2 units of Warriors). Granted, if you are playing a Decurion, pretty much everything you put on the table is going to be insanely durable for its points. I mean in the list I just posted EVERY SINGLE MODEL (assuming Wraiths are within 12" of a Spyder) has 4+ FNP that cannot be denied by Instant Death (ok its a 5+ now, woohoo!) OR is an AV14 all around Superheavy vehicle with 6HP that can regenerate HP OR is a Flyer. I feel like that's gonna win you the war of attrition against a lot lists.
I can see the advantages of just spamming Wraiths in a CAD over paying for the buffs, but I feel like a lot of players are going to find the detachment-wide +1 to RP to be too hard to pass up. There's also no way to get Wraiths in a Decurion Detachment without running a Canoptek Harvest, and thus paying the spyder tax.
It will be interesting to see how the Decurion vs CAD debate plays out or if a mix of the two ends up being very strong.
Some sort of knight, hope he doesn't get too many rending hits and hope you get a 6 on your Stomp? You should have 2-4 rounds of stomps to achieve this. (Or as a last resort, hope it tips over and explodes with the Str D portion of the blast on them.)
dominuschao wrote: I love these sky is falling threads! So much fun. But the truth is competitive players will just spam more wraiths instead of clunky lynchpin units because it's better.
Also remember folks wraiths got more durable but they aren't all that killy. We're still only talking about 18 ws4 attacks base here. I've seen them stuck on meqs quite a few times. They are definitely hard to get rid of and might alone be enough to shift the meta from shoot and scoot armies. That said TWC are still better for reasons were all probably familiar with.
I agree with most of this. I would not say that TWC are flat out better though, just different.
I think most people aren't considering that if doing the Decurion thing for buffed RP, you have to put 7 units on the table before you get even your first unit of Wraiths. Those 7 units aren't the killiest things in the dex either, and 3 of them really require a transport to be useful (Immortals and 2 units of Warriors). Granted, if you are playing a Decurion, pretty much everything you put on the table is going to be insanely durable for its points. I mean in the list I just posted EVERY SINGLE MODEL (assuming Wraiths are within 12" of a Spyder) has 4+ FNP that cannot be denied by Instant Death (ok its a 5+ now, woohoo!) OR is an AV14 all around Superheavy vehicle with 6HP that can regenerate HP OR is a Flyer. I feel like that's gonna win you the war of attrition against a lot lists.
I can see the advantages of just spamming Wraiths in a CAD over paying for the buffs, but I feel like a lot of players are going to find the detachment-wide +1 to RP to be too hard to pass up. There's also no way to get Wraiths in a Decurion Detachment without running a Canoptek Harvest, and thus paying the spyder tax.
It will be interesting to see how the Decurion vs CAD debate plays out or if a mix of the two ends up being very strong.
While you bring up a good point, even you played a regular CAD, you'd still be required to put down a HQ and 2 troops anyway, So really the Reclamation only adds the tax of an extra troop and Tomb Blades. Tomb Blades arn't even a tax anymore because they are so good.
Mavnas wrote: Are they significantly stronger than TWC, which can also be 2W T5 3++ with rending attacks, 12" move, and fleet?
A full unit of wraiths w/o whipcoils (to make them I5, essentially) are 45 pts cheaper, I think (than TWC w/ SSs and nothing else)... with them they are 36 pts cheaper and better in basically every single way.
I like the decurion, in fact I love it. Some really cool stuff coming from that and not weak either. Just wanted to point out everything comes at cost.
Wraiths will shake up armies that are used to pouring fire power into problems. They essentially come stock with a pseudo invis. Hooray assault.
I do agree wraiths are different than TWC although they look the same on the surface. TWC have more attacks ws5 (cof) and s10ap2. Wraiths have greater durability with RP.
As for efficient answers you treat them as invisible and kill everything else. How you fight khornedogs beast stars or seers. Otherwise bubble wrapped gunlines still make a mess of the rest of the army. Fearless blobs, fnp boyz etc. Strength D exists, adlance, the detachment can't deal well with fmc or flyer spam, wolves doc and orks can all tangle just fine in combat. And of course tau and eldar still have insane firepower that will drop those lynchpins. Just a few but I'm sure there's more.
dominuschao wrote: I love these sky is falling threads! So much fun. But the truth is competitive players will just spam more wraiths instead of clunky lynchpin units because it's better.
Also remember folks wraiths got more durable but they aren't all that killy. We're still only talking about 18 ws4 attacks base here. I've seen them stuck on meqs quite a few times. They are definitely hard to get rid of and might alone be enough to shift the meta from shoot and scoot armies. That said TWC are still better for reasons were all probably familiar with.
I agree with most of this. I would not say that TWC are flat out better though, just different.
I think most people aren't considering that if doing the Decurion thing for buffed RP, you have to put 7 units on the table before you get even your first unit of Wraiths. Those 7 units aren't the killiest things in the dex either, and 3 of them really require a transport to be useful (Immortals and 2 units of Warriors). Granted, if you are playing a Decurion, pretty much everything you put on the table is going to be insanely durable for its points. I mean in the list I just posted EVERY SINGLE MODEL (assuming Wraiths are within 12" of a Spyder) has 4+ FNP that cannot be denied by Instant Death (ok its a 5+ now, woohoo!) OR is an AV14 all around Superheavy vehicle with 6HP that can regenerate HP OR is a Flyer. I feel like that's gonna win you the war of attrition against a lot lists.
I can see the advantages of just spamming Wraiths in a CAD over paying for the buffs, but I feel like a lot of players are going to find the detachment-wide +1 to RP to be too hard to pass up. There's also no way to get Wraiths in a Decurion Detachment without running a Canoptek Harvest, and thus paying the spyder tax.
It will be interesting to see how the Decurion vs CAD debate plays out or if a mix of the two ends up being very strong.
While you bring up a good point, even you played a regular CAD, you'd still be required to put down a HQ and 2 troops anyway, So really the Reclamation only adds the tax of an extra troop and Tomb Blades. Tomb Blades arn't even a tax anymore because they are so good.
Yeah "tax" is probably the wrong word in this situation, it just happens to be the diction we use to talk about these situations so often. I guess something like "opportunity cost" would apply better to the new Necron codex, since it seems like damn near everything you put on the table is strong in its own right. And I'm not saying that's a bad thing by any means in terms of competitiveness or balance.
My main point was that while the Super-Wraiths are good, really really good, they're just not nearly as spammable as it first appears without severely gutting the rest of the list.
Everyone's comparing wraiths to TWC but forgetting that TWC can easily be S6 AP3 with shred. That's a lot more deadly on the offense, at the expense of RP
Spellbound wrote: Everyone's comparing wraiths to TWC but forgetting that TWC can easily be S6 AP3 with shred. That's a lot more deadly on the offense, at the expense of RP
IIRC, TWC aren't fearless no? So the wraiths got that going for them too. In addition, having the wolves both carry a storm shield and a wolf claw puts them at roughly twice the point value of the wraiths, who are S6 inherently. Your point is valid non the less, but point economics come Into play.
Actually, wouldnt a Flying Daemon Prince of Nurgle with a Balesword just mulch the entire squad once the Spyders dead?
I mean just ignore the stupid things until your 1-3 Nurgle Princes get near it, charge, mutilate it, then start going for the poor little uglies. T5 still doesn't mean jack to ID.
1 full squad (12 models) more than 15" away will take out 1W from the Wraiths. At 15" or less, 2W (so 1 less Wraith in the squad). For each Wraith, you'll need an entire troop slot at 15" (and not counting on RP). Each full squad is barely more than 100p... each Wraith costs less than 40p. Greater Good...
This doesn't count markerlights. You'll need BS 5 for each squad to kill 1.667 Wraith - so, 2 FW full squads with BS 5 could destroy HALF of a Wraith squad. (6 unsaved wounds).
Plasma XV-8 are terribad against them (a full XV-8 with 2 plasmas each will kill less than 2 Wraiths).
Maybe the best thing to do is to send a full 30-models Kroot squad with an Ethereal nearby to hold them off, because if the Wraiths are loose...
Spellbound wrote: Everyone's comparing wraiths to TWC but forgetting that TWC can easily be S6 AP3 with shred. That's a lot more deadly on the offense, at the expense of RP
IIRC, TWC aren't fearless no? So the wraiths got that going for them too. In addition, having the wolves both carry a storm shield and a wolf claw puts them at roughly twice the point value of the wraiths, who are S6 inherently. Your point is valid non the less, but point economics come Into play.
That TWC model would be 75pts, 80pts with melta bombs(that's how I kit).
Jpr wrote: To the people saying they will throw 200-300 str 3/4 hits on wraiths... Have you run the math hammer on it? All I can say is.. Be prepared to be disappointed. This Is without the possibility of a res orb being in there for Lols.200 str 3 attacks kills 1 wraith on average and not even that with a res orb turn .
If your talking about the green tide its ~300 (2 base plus 1 for 2cc wpns)atks and 400 on charge just from the Boyz at ws5 and that's just the chaff. The 7nobs w Powerklaws are an additional 21 (28 on charge) str8 or 9 pkatks at ws5 all with thier own 5+ fnp. This is with me keeping the tide warboss (w big choppa str7) and painboy (poison)in the back protecting them. If the tide charges and they have a large charge range as well they get +1 atk,+1 str and possible 100 initiative 10 str3/4 how hits. If they get charged it's 103 str4 snap shots.
I've run the math wraiths just don't have the atks to go through 100 toughness 4, 4+, 5++, 5+++ Orks. Your best bet is to snipe out the 3-4 characters that buff the tide and charge into them before they charge you. It's kinda the same tactic I get to use on you. Except ur guys move faster but are held back by the spider. Meaning you either leave your RP behind and charge the tide or you wait for the spider to catch up. Giving me time to hit the spider with multiple str 8 ap2 blast weapons and a chance to charge the wraiths.
Putting that on the table at retail cost is $544.50 US. Even with a 20% discount ($435.60) not worth it (eBay isn't any better pricing) to just fight Necrons. I would rather tarpit with buffed screamers. Easier to do and easier on the wallet.
Putting that on the table at retail cost is $544.50 US. Even with a 20% discount ($435.60) not worth it (eBay isn't any better pricing) to just fight Necrons. I would rather tarpit with buffed screamers. Easier to do and easier on the wallet.
Buy Chaos Hounds from Fantasy, buy bike/cavalry bases.
Profit?
Chaos Hounds are 30$ A box in Canada. Come with 10.
6 boxes in total would be necessary, being 180.
Buy the round base set from the site as well, you can probably sell the extras or use them for other model projects. 12$ each in Canada, and you'd need 6 sets, so $72.
$252 in Canada, before tax, and that's all from GW. Cheaper if you can get the Bike Bases from a seperate retailer/ebay and the hounds from a independent retailer or something.
EDIT: and it's not like Hounds are bad, either. Probably one of the best CC units in Chaos Daemons.
On a real note, Toughness 5, but they are still hit by poison, correct? so there is DE and Nid responce, IMHO.
heavy bolter heavy weapon teams for IG?
Plus, you have to remember that while mathhammer has an impact, random chances give little cares for well thought out math. Beyond that, just hope you don't play against a netlist or WAAC player. This same issue of unit spamming can be done with any army.
Actually, wouldnt a Flying Daemon Prince of Nurgle with a Balesword just mulch the entire squad once the Spyders dead?
I mean just ignore the stupid things until your 1-3 Nurgle Princes get near it, charge, mutilate it, then start going for the poor little uglies. T5 still doesn't mean jack to ID.
Not sure if that would work well. If you're flying, you have to land and get charged by the Wraiths. If you're on the ground, keep in mind that the Wraiths are slightly faster than you (12" move with fleet). With the 4+ RP, even a Nurgle Daemon prince will only kill 0.5 Wraiths per round (you can expect to kill ONE wraith every 2 rounds of combat). They'll kill you before you kill them.
Vector Strike wrote:
Spoiler:
Tau Fire Warriors:
1 full squad (12 models) more than 15" away will take out 1W from the Wraiths. At 15" or less, 2W (so 1 less Wraith in the squad). For each Wraith, you'll need an entire troop slot at 15" (and not counting on RP). Each full squad is barely more than 100p... each Wraith costs less than 40p. Greater Good...
This doesn't count markerlights. You'll need BS 5 for each squad to kill 1.667 Wraith - so, 2 FW full squads with BS 5 could destroy HALF of a Wraith squad. (6 unsaved wounds).
Plasma XV-8 are terribad against them (a full XV-8 with 2 plasmas each will kill less than 2 Wraiths).
Maybe the best thing to do is to send a full 30-models Kroot squad with an Ethereal nearby to hold them off, because if the Wraiths are loose...
Even worse than that. You forgot to include their 4+ RP. 2 FW full squads with BS 5 could destroy...a Wraith and wound another. Tarpitting with 30 stubborn Kroot might be one of Tau's best options.
gungo wrote:
Spoiler:
Jpr wrote: To the people saying they will throw 200-300 str 3/4 hits on wraiths... Have you run the math hammer on it? All I can say is.. Be prepared to be disappointed. This Is without the possibility of a res orb being in there for Lols.200 str 3 attacks kills 1 wraith on average and not even that with a res orb turn .
If your talking about the green tide its ~300 (2 base plus 1 for 2cc wpns)atks and 400 on charge just from the Boyz at ws5 and that's just the chaff. The 7nobs w Powerklaws are an additional 21 (28 on charge) str8 or 9 pkatks at ws5 all with thier own 5+ fnp. This is with me keeping the tide warboss (w big choppa str7) and painboy (poison)in the back protecting them. If the tide charges and they have a large charge range as well they get +1 atk,+1 str and possible 100 initiative 10 str3/4 how hits. If they get charged it's 103 str4 snap shots.
I've run the math wraiths just don't have the atks to go through 100 toughness 4, 4+, 5++, 5+++ Orks. Your best bet is to snipe out the 3-4 characters that buff the tide and charge into them before they charge you. It's kinda the same tactic I get to use on you. Except ur guys move faster but are held back by the spider. Meaning you either leave your RP behind and charge the tide or you wait for the spider to catch up. Giving me time to hit the spider with multiple str 8 ap2 blast weapons and a chance to charge the wraiths.
At that point though, you're talking about a 240ish point unit losing to a 1000+ point unit, assuming all 100 Orks get to charge and attack (more likely 1/3 to 1/2 the unit at best). And if "only" 35 boyz get to attack, you're only killing 2 Wraiths. Also, remember that the strength 8/9 ap 2 powerklaws are barely better than their basic attacks. The Nobs wound on 2s; that's the only difference.
I'm not trying to be a naysayer and claim they're invincible. Just trying to help us come up with an "effective" answer. My thoughts - what about the Space Wolf Venerable Dreadnoughts with storm shields? The Wraiths would struggle to hurt him (0.5 hull points per round) and he would occasionally instant death one of them with strength 10. Also, he costs something like 100 points less than the Wraiths.
So i just played a game against the new wraiths. Guy had 18 of the things, 3 squads of 6.
I was running a mix of orky units. 40 shoota boyz in two battlewagons, a backup trukk of 10 shoota boyz. some nob bikerz a tankbusta trukk a dakkajet some warbuggies with rokkits. you know just random stuff.
And man are those wraiths annoying. I mean, i put full on weight of dice on that guy and he just kept making savings. that and I was rolling horribly to wound him.
On one charge i had 45 attacks. 4+ to hit 5+ to wound with furious. end result I caused 3 wounds. THREE! not 3 unsaved wounds. 3 total wounds. and he saved all 3 of those. That took the momentum out of the game for me.
But On the first turn i was able to shoot down one squad of wraiths to 3/6 and wreck one ghost ark. but at the end of the game there were two wraith squads left. one had 1 guy in it and the other had 4 guys in it, and i was pretty much down to my dakkajet.
Also that triarch stalker is amazing, boosting BS of nearby units.I mean it didnt do much for him as his gunboats were largely forced to shoot at my vehicles, but in other cases it helped to get his destroyer lords to wreck the vehicles.
With the boys I wished I could have stayed back and shot the wraiths more than charge them, but man those things are fast. I didnt really have a choice but to charge.
On a real note, Toughness 5, but they are still hit by poison, correct? so there is DE and Nid responce, IMHO.
heavy bolter heavy weapon teams for IG?
Plus, you have to remember that while mathhammer has an impact, random chances give little cares for well thought out math. Beyond that, just hope you don't play against a netlist or WAAC player. This same issue of unit spamming can be done with any army.
This^
And you guys are over reacting(like every other new codex). We have dealt with fast moving T5 before....This will be no different
What if you don't run 3 squads of 6, but instead 6 squads of 3?
It's not like more spiders and more scarabs are bad, and more target saturation is good.
Icculus wrote: heres one thing that is lame about them though. They are the same price as termies.
come with the 3++
have 2 wounds
12" movement
fleet
beasts
fearless
compare to either th/ss terms or PF terms. and again the cost of terminators seems way too high. Or these wraiths are way too cheap
Bit of both.
I'd say these wraiths are probably worth 45 PPM, 50 PPM with whip coils, but at the same time Terminators are overpriced, especially Storm Bolter Terminators who can't seem to decide if they want to be a shooting unit paying too much for durability or a slow assault unit paying too much to swap two weapon bonus for a non amazing gun.
terminators get a 2+ save against more than the wraiths do. They're just slower, but get to deep strike. And they have thunder hammers. While yes, that's the same 2+ to wound against most things that the wraiths have, AP2 counts for a lot against many things.
I don't think terminators need to be cheaper. I just think they need to be WS5
Spellbound wrote: terminators get a 2+ save against more than the wraiths do. They're just slower, but get to deep strike. And they have thunder hammers. While yes, that's the same 2+ to wound against most things that the wraiths have, AP2 counts for a lot against many things.
I don't think terminators need to be cheaper. I just think they need to be WS5
Deep striking isn't as good as it should be, is the thing. I have no idea why they penalise assault units for teleporting in but let heavily shooty ones pop a land raider upon arrival no problem.
By deep striking a dedicated assault unit, you slap a "Shoot me with overwhelming firepower whilst I'm helpless" sign on their backs.
I'm inclined to believe the stronger cron lists from the decurion aren't going to be wraith centered, although they will obviously want at least one unit. Spamming obelisks otoh...
Currently this dex is the only one outside of IKs that allows multiple LoW and in one detachment.
Honestly if your gonna focus on wraiths I still think CADs are better. Just more meat an gravy.
Not sure if that would work well. If you're flying, you have to land and get charged by the Wraiths. If you're on the ground, keep in mind that the Wraiths are slightly faster than you (12" move with fleet). With the 4+ RP, even a Nurgle Daemon prince will only kill 0.5 Wraiths per round (you can expect to kill ONE wraith every 2 rounds of combat). They'll kill you before you kill them.
Well no, a FMC can act like a Jump MC and still move 12" per turn. A Nurgle Prince, or any list that is Flying Circus with Nurgle Princes have up to 3 Princes in a 1500 point game, each taking a Balesword for ID. They can Jinx for a 2+ Cover Save and still move 12" per turn, and assault during the same move since they aren't flying. The only thing weighing those Wraiths down is the Spyder, which as a hindrance is going to get your wraiths killed since it needs to either be bubble wrapped to prevent charges, or needs to be hidden constantly. A Daemon Prince with a Balesword has ID on it's attacks. Every unsaved wounds is a Dead Wraith, FNP say bye bye. Once the spider is removed they just collectively shamble off cliffs from my perspective.
Actually, wouldnt a Flying Daemon Prince of Nurgle with a Balesword just mulch the entire squad once the Spyders dead?
I mean just ignore the stupid things until your 1-3 Nurgle Princes get near it, charge, mutilate it, then start going for the poor little uglies. T5 still doesn't mean jack to ID.
Not sure if that would work well. If you're flying, you have to land and get charged by the Wraiths. If you're on the ground, keep in mind that the Wraiths are slightly faster than you (12" move with fleet). With the 4+ RP, even a Nurgle Daemon prince will only kill 0.5 Wraiths per round (you can expect to kill ONE wraith every 2 rounds of combat). They'll kill you before you kill them.
Vector Strike wrote:
Spoiler:
gungo wrote:[spoiler]
Jpr wrote: To the people saying they will throw 200-300 str 3/4 hits on wraiths... Have you run the math hammer on it? All I can say is.. Be prepared to be disappointed. This Is without the possibility of a res orb being in there for Lols.200 str 3 attacks kills 1 wraith on average and not even that with a res orb turn .
If your talking about the green tide its ~300 (2 base plus 1 for 2cc wpns)atks and 400 on charge just from the Boyz at ws5 and that's just the chaff. The 7nobs w Powerklaws are an additional 21 (28 on charge) str8 or 9 pkatks at ws5 all with thier own 5+ fnp. This is with me keeping the tide warboss (w big choppa str7) and painboy (poison)in the back protecting them. If the tide charges and they have a large charge range as well they get +1 atk,+1 str and possible 100 initiative 10 str3/4 how hits. If they get charged it's 103 str4 snap shots.
I've run the math wraiths just don't have the atks to go through 100 toughness 4, 4+, 5++, 5+++ Orks. Your best bet is to snipe out the 3-4 characters that buff the tide and charge into them before they charge you. It's kinda the same tactic I get to use on you. Except ur guys move faster but are held back by the spider. Meaning you either leave your RP behind and charge the tide or you wait for the spider to catch up. Giving me time to hit the spider with multiple str 8 ap2 blast weapons and a chance to charge the wraiths.
At that point though, you're talking about a 240ish point unit losing to a 1000+ point unit, assuming all 100 Orks get to charge and attack (more likely 1/3 to 1/2 the unit at best). And if "only" 35 boyz get to attack, you're only killing 2 Wraiths. Also, remember that the strength 8/9 ap 2 powerklaws are barely better than their basic attacks. The Nobs wound on 2s; that's the only difference.
I'm not trying to be a naysayer and claim they're invincible. Just trying to help us come up with an "effective" answer. My thoughts - what about the Space Wolf Venerable Dreadnoughts with storm shields? The Wraiths would struggle to hurt him (0.5 hull points per round) and he would occasionally instant death one of them with strength 10. Also, he costs something like 100 points less than the Wraiths.
I was comparing it to the decorian wraith spam list the poster above you posted which is basically a 700 point unit with other units you need to take in order to build that list. It's not like the greentide is made to counter wraiths it's basically a TAC list. Spamming one unit type to fight your spam list. Personally I don't think the decorian list is better then the exterminatus list with 4+ RP and rerolls of 1. You can still add wraiths to that list too they just won't have RP.
GoliothOnline wrote: Well no, a FMC can act like a Jump MC and still move 12" per turn. A Nurgle Prince, or any list that is Flying Circus with Nurgle Princes have up to 3 Princes in a 1500 point game, each taking a Balesword for ID. They can Jinx for a 2+ Cover Save and still move 12" per turn, and assault during the same move since they aren't flying. The only thing weighing those Wraiths down is the Spyder, which as a hindrance is going to get your wraiths killed since it needs to either be bubble wrapped to prevent charges, or needs to be hidden constantly. A Daemon Prince with a Balesword has ID on it's attacks. Every unsaved wounds is a Dead Wraith, FNP say bye bye. Once the spider is removed they just collectively shamble off cliffs from my perspective.
Yes, once the Spyder is killed, the Wraiths do become somewhat vulnerable to some things. Although don't forget that their 4+ FnP isn't completely ignored by instant death - it just becomes a 5+ instead. A Nurgle Prince has 5 attacks (2/3 hit, 8/9 wound, 1/3 get past the 3++, 2/3 get past the 5+++) = 0.65 wounds dealt per turn. Granted, if you do get a wound through, that's a dead Wraith. But you can't even expect to get 1 wound through every turn.
Let's say you kill one. 15 attacks back, 1/3 hit, 2/3 wound = 3.33 saves per turn, not even counting rending. After 3 rounds of combat, you've probably killed 2 Wraiths and they've dealt 3 wounds to you. Of course, your Nurgle Prince can also have 4+ FnP and psychic powers, but that's not reliable and it makes him cost ~100 points more than the Wraiths. It's certainly not hopeless for the Daemon player, but fighting them is definitely not "easy".
I think my earlier comment got lost in the long posts. What do people think about the Space Wolf Venerable Dreadnought with a storm shield? Strength 10 vs the Wraiths and a full unit of 6 would only do 0.5 hull points per combat.
On a real note, Toughness 5, but they are still hit by poison, correct? so there is DE and Nid responce.
It Needs 108 DE Poison shots to kill a squad. Thats exactly 9 dual Splinter Venoms. Dont know whats the usual number of venoms in a venom spam list. DE tend do be good against anything other armies struggle, but have some other issues other armies dont have.
Well on the positive side I think in a non competitive meta I wont run into Wraith Spam and one full unit might be a pain in the ..., but I might be able to handle it. On the negative side, as a person who likes competitive games, I wont be able to play in tournaments, cause I am not interested in boring spamming and abusement of 5% OP units while the rest gets dumped. With all the stupid cheese like Serpent spam, Flying Circus, Deamon Factory, Biker Spam and now again Wraith Spam, its just not possible for most armies to play a versatile TAC list without a big handicap... I really thought GW was finally getting it... think they ninjad me
I think it's silly how many people either suggest solutions that cost WAAAY more points than the wraiths and expect that to not put you at a severe disadvantage elsewhere on the table, and the number of people that are clueless on either the math or the new wraith abilities, and suggest things that obviously won't work.
Once these people get in a few games against several canoptek formations, I'm sure we'll see some "holy carp guys, I didn't understand just how ridiculous those things were" threads.
T5 2w 3++ followed by 4+ RP with the possibility of rerolling that for a round, and only losing one point on one of the dice to insta death, is insane durability. Put that kind of durability on a jump assault unit with several high strength high initiative rending attacks, and for a low point cost considering what you get, and you have a nightmare on the table.
A posterboy unit along with Khorne dogs for "assault isn't dead, it's just only available to brokenly fast and/or durable units."
Icculus wrote: I wouldnt call this an apocalypse thread. I call this a "Hey look this unit is new and different, and stronger than before. How should i beat it?"
I think that's what this thread is. Or at least that's where the thread is at this moment.
Fair enough. Here's hoping it doesn´t turn into one, because the Wraiths are not unbeatable.
niv-mizzet wrote: I think it's silly how many people either suggest solutions that cost WAAAY more points than the wraiths and expect that to not put you at a severe disadvantage elsewhere on the table, and the number of people that are clueless on either the math or the new wraith abilities, and suggest things that obviously won't work.
Once these people get in a few games against several canoptek formations, I'm sure we'll see some "holy carp guys, I didn't understand just how ridiculous those things were" threads.
T5 2w 3++ followed by 4+ RP with the possibility of rerolling that for a round, and only losing one point on one of the dice to insta death, is insane durability. Put that kind of durability on a jump assault unit with several high strength high initiative rending attacks, and for a low point cost considering what you get, and you have a nightmare on the table.
A posterboy unit along with Khorne dogs for "assault isn't dead, it's just only available to brokenly fast and/or durable units."
The irony, I love it <3
Re-rolling? Are you really suggesting that we add a Destroyer Lord to them? Jet Packs and Beasts don't really match.
RunicFIN wrote: The wraiths are a top tier unit but they are not broken asfar as I´m concerned. Gravstar is broken, invisible IK's are broken.
Yet another apocalypse thread, it´ll wither in a few months when people learn they're just good and not gamebreaking and learn to play against them.
We'll see. I dont think it is that easy. I can think of that most non-competitive Players will run 1 unit at max. That should be possible to handle for most armies (most of the times not point effective). In the tournament scene it will be a little bit different. Think wraithwing will be back. Question is, if it is powerful/broken enough to beat the other broken netlists.
The Thing about wraith is not that they are unstoppable, but their costs are way to low for what they do. Compare 6 Wraith to 6TH/SS Termies For their speed, durability and hitting power i would say they should be around 55 points.
So for some more numbers, I mathed this situation:
15 Baal strike force death company joined by Astorath in back charge a unit of wraiths. 75 s5 init 5 attacks rerolling hits and wounds.
They kill THREE wraiths. And wound another. Astorath doesn't even manage a wound on average, even on the charge. And all that is at the same initiative as the wraiths. If the DC didn't charge, then they lose a huge amount of punch. All the rerolls, a strength and init, and 2 attacks per guy. And this is a 600 point unit that is considered to be among the most devastating, over killing assaults in the game.
How about a MANZ missile, each meganob with a skorcha? If the wraiths attack the trukk, WOD them, then charge. If they run around it (no jumping over anymore), fire skorchas then charge. The rending will eventually eat the meganob's lunches, but until then, parity?
Not sure what people are worried about. You are only going to see wraith spam in competitive play in which case you are also making the strongest list as possible as well. The wraith formation really limits how you can build a list and in my opinion takes the fun out of making a list.
As for trying to deal with them ill probably just send a maulerfiend with tendrils at them and what ever else I have close by to assist in the combat (usually more walkers). Wraiths won't be able to withstand str 10 attacks for long.
RunicFIN wrote: The wraiths are a top tier unit but they are not broken asfar as I´m concerned. Gravstar is broken, invisible IK's are broken.
Yet another apocalypse thread, it´ll wither in a few months when people learn they're just good and not gamebreaking and learn to play against them.
We'll see. I dont think it is that easy. I can think of that most non-competitive Players will run 1 unit at max. That should be possible to handle for most armies (most of the times not point effective). In the tournament scene it will be a little bit different. Think wraithwing will be back. Question is, if it is powerful/broken enough to beat the other broken netlists.
The Thing about wraith is not that they are unstoppable, but their costs are way to low for what they do. Compare 6 Wraith to 6TH/SS Termies For their speed, durability and hitting power i would say they should be around 55 points.
Terminators have been overcosted for ages though. MAYBE if they were appropriately costed we could make comparisons...
We'll see. I dont think it is that easy. I can think of that most non-competitive Players will run 1 unit at max. That should be possible to handle for most armies (most of the times not point effective). In the tournament scene it will be a little bit different. Think wraithwing will be back. Question is, if it is powerful/broken enough to beat the other broken netlists.
The Thing about wraith is not that they are unstoppable, but their costs are way to low for what they do. Compare 6 Wraith to 6TH/SS Termies For their speed, durability and hitting power i would say they should be around 55 points.
They are beautifully undercosted, and I agree 1 unit, at least in a decurion. OR,a full wing from another formation/CAD.
Anything with invisiblity and/or hit & run or D attacks or even just dirt cheap tarpits doesn't care too much about wraithwing though and thats quite a bit of the best units. They're not large enough to pull off multi assaults like beasts used to or khornedogs and they have no ranged presence so they still need ranged support. I do see certain armies/builds folding to wraithwing (the ones that did before only now its worse). However remember the former wraithwing has changed significantly due to the nerf to anni barges, CCBs and MSS among other things. The core is stronger but the support pieces, the dirty little av13 support units are much worse. Of course others exist but not to quite the same level as before when a 90 pt unit jinked then hit you back 14 times with 6 shots..
Anyway everyone knows how durable the wraiths are with RP. So whats the point in theorizing on assaulting them with X assault unit of doom? (except for funsies of course).
Assault to tie them up with something throw away.. unless the spyder is dead and you can beat the unit, like fully tooled TWC/astorath DC/NDKs/etc can all do without the spyders buffs. NDKs and TWC in particular will beat wraiths even with RP up due to instant death because they inflict more then they take.
In the mean time since they have no ranged presence if bringing multiple harvests then kiling the spyders at range is not that hard, especially with cover ignoring and units packing grav, disi cannons, D, seekers or similar. Then wraiths return to normal uber undercosted assault unit thats moderately killy.
They will most likely be out of range of a spyder on a turn they charge.
wraiths might assault turn 2. Move 12+run avg 3", move 12" + run avg 3" assault avg 7" looking at being 37" into the board. Maybe closer depending on distance to target, lets say target was 32" away from deployment. Spyder is slowed by terrain[not factored into theoryhammer here], and moves 6"+avg3 run so on turn 2 the spyder is going to be on average 14" further away[assuming 32" target] from the wraiths then when they started. I am guessing you are putting the spyder beside or behind the wraiths at deployment. Even before pile ins the wraiths are out of range most likely.
at 43pts a model with only whipcoil upgrade, they are clocking in at 252pts for an unit of 6. Not exactly cheap.
If they get the charge off your looking at 24 attacks, against WS4 thats 12 hits, 2 rends on average from wound rolls. Against say TWC they will cause 2 rends and 7 other wounds on average. 2 rends might be saved if there are Storm Shields involved, the remaining 7 other wounds will see 2-3 more wounds done after saves. Looking at seeing 1-2 dead TWC average will say they had 5 models.
TW will strike back, assuming certain formation they are WS5 and they have counterattack. looking at 20-15 attacks back on average, 14-10 hits on average, wounding 12-8 times. If you play where TWC are s10 from double strength your wraiths are in trouble you just lost 4-3. If you play where TWC are str 9, you just lost 2 on average. Its similar for most armies that have any 2+ models with access to some ++ saves and good assault weapons. Wraiths are pretty much equal to elite assault elements of other armies.
wraiths are better, and they were already good but they only have rending and rending is not a reliable strategy with a max model count of 6. It works with things like Daemonettes because you can take 12[costs less than 6 wraiths btw], and on the charge they have 36 attacks which averages 18 hits, which is 50% more chances to get a rend than a max squad of wraiths(avg 12 hits on charge for max wraith squad versus WS 4), on other units[like wraiths] its kind of just a bonus chance to do something.
I think the real strength of wraiths will be eating light armor, or vehicles that have armor 10 in the rear. with str 6 and 4 attacks on the charge they are going to tear those kinds of units apart.
blaktoof- exactly. They will mulch skimmer reliant armies and the more elite xenos builds. As it should be. Most other types of builds will be just fine, especially other combat focused armies.
I think the real strength of wraiths will be eating light armor, or vehicles that have armor 10 in the rear. with str 6 and 4 attacks on the charge they are going to tear those kinds of units apart.
I think the real strength of wraiths will be eating light armor, or vehicles that have armor 10 in the rear. with str 6 and 4 attacks on the charge they are going to tear those kinds of units apart.
Rear armor on a wave serpent?
10
6 wraiths charging a wave serpent, 24 attacks, hit on 3+, say 16 hits. even with no rends if you roll str 6+d6 say half of 16 hits are 4+ thats 8 hps off a wave serpent without any rolls on pen table even. on average 3 wraiths will do 4 hp to a vehicle they charge that has rear armor 10 with 0 rends scored.
Re-rolling? Are you really suggesting that we add a Destroyer Lord to them?
Jet Packs and Beasts don't really match.
I'm well aware they aren't actually jump units, but some of the players around here don't really understand the beast rules, so I get in the habit of saying "they're like jump units."
And sort of. If you start with some wraiths up front in the open, you could have an IC res orb with them to guard against first turn shooting, then detach and join the unit he would be in normally. You could also do some unit switching shenanigans once the wraiths are in their base killin their dudes. That's why I said it was possible, not that you'd always have it.
Full platoon of bare bones guardsmen with the rending order?
+
Lemun russ punisher with Pask.
How would that fair?
Maybe a couple of punishers....
Avenger strike fighters.
Fire raptor gunships.
As for dark angels, bolter banner and.... Now this may be a bit of a reason to use them, use a dark talon to drop the stasis bomb and then counter charge them with black knights, or allied thunder wolf cav or well, who the F**k knows.
Hilariously, if you can get them there, assault centurions should be quite good. Rad gren inquisitor or dark angels again to drop there T by one instant kill them (shame they have the RA, but they won't pass them all).
GoliothOnline wrote: Screw it, everyone Take Typhons. Typhons for you, and you, and you, NOT YOU LOYALIST SCUM, for you, and sure, why not you Orks. Solution!
As long as they don't have 4+ RP. The Typhon IS a good solution to non RP Wraiths which are the only ones that are really spammable. Although it's not really one that I like, as I'm not a fan of SHV's in 40K in general.
I think this gives Tau a good reason to field the Heavy Burst Cannon on their Riptides. Back when Wraiths were T4 I was counting on strength 8 blasts to double them out, now, Tau can't ID them with anything short of a railgun and we don't carry many of those around anymore.
Honestly the harvest detachment for RP on wraiths is nice but the whole setup through the decorian detachment is probably not better then the exterminatus book detachment granting 4+ RP with rerolls of 1. Youre taking at most 2 harvest detschments for 12 wraiths with RP. I still like the exterminatus lists better and you can still take a detachment of wraiths which are still very good.
gungo wrote: Honestly the harvest detachment for RP on wraiths is nice but the whole setup through the decorian detachment is probably not better then the exterminatus book detachment granting 4+ RP with rerolls of 1. Youre taking at most 2 harvest detschments for 12 wraiths with RP. I still like the exterminatus lists better and you can still take a detachment of wraiths which are still very good.
Um, I'd have to check, but I'm pretty sure the Exterminatus Dynasty does not gain a Deatchment wide bonus to RP. You have to pay for Crypteks to get them in that case.
In addition, the Reclaimation legion gets to reroll 1's within 12' of the Overlord
EDIT: And I'm also pretty sure it's only Troops that get that Reroll, not the entire deatchment.
gungo wrote: Honestly the harvest detachment for RP on wraiths is nice but the whole setup through the decorian detachment is probably not better then the exterminatus book detachment granting 4+ RP with rerolls of 1. Youre taking at most 2 harvest detschments for 12 wraiths with RP. I still like the exterminatus lists better and you can still take a detachment of wraiths which are still very good.
Um, I'd have to check, but I'm pretty sure the Exterminatus Dynasty does not gain a Deatchment wide bonus to RP. You have to pay for Crypteks to get them in that case.
In addition, the Reclaimation legion gets to reroll 1's within 12' of the Overlord
EDIT: And I'm also pretty sure it's only Troops that get that Reroll, not the entire deatchment.
Correct and correct. No 4+ rp for mephrit overall, and the re-rolls are only for troops. In fairness, there is no range indicator and only other thing that gets it for the reclamation legion is tomb blades. Which....honestly....I'm ok with haha
gungo wrote: Honestly the harvest detachment for RP on wraiths is nice but the whole setup through the decorian detachment is probably not better then the exterminatus book detachment granting 4+ RP with rerolls of 1. Youre taking at most 2 harvest detschments for 12 wraiths with RP. I still like the exterminatus lists better and you can still take a detachment of wraiths which are still very good.
Um, I'd have to check, but I'm pretty sure the Exterminatus Dynasty does not gain a Deatchment wide bonus to RP. You have to pay for Crypteks to get them in that case.
In addition, the Reclaimation legion gets to reroll 1's within 12' of the Overlord
EDIT: And I'm also pretty sure it's only Troops that get that Reroll, not the entire deatchment.
Correct and correct. No 4+ rp for mephrit overall, and the re-rolls are only for troops. In fairness, there is no range indicator and only other thing that gets it for the reclamation legion is tomb blades. Which....honestly....I'm ok with haha
Yeah, that makes the Decurion, far superior than Mephrit.
50 conscripts + 2 priests = 200 pts.
Charge the wraiths (or get charged by them).
The wraiths hit an average of twice, 1.33 wounds, .33 rending wounds. The priests give you a save reroll, rerollable 5+ is 5/9ths chance so just under one conscript dead per wraith per turn.
Now in exchange, the conscripts... who cares. You've tarpitted the enemy unit for 8-9 assault phases for fewer points than they cost, and 52 models have a giant footprint. You could string the unit across the entire board and ensure the wraiths come close to it.
Yeah I'm struggling to find a use for Mephrit. You can at least probably take a relic from Mephrit like the thermite and then a relic from the regular codex like the shroud to give your dude a 2+ re-rollable with a 4++. But that's going to run you.....230 points. I would probably be fine with that if you didn't need to have the entire mephrit dynasty detachment to have a buff monster like that. Maybe if you could create two of those, it would be sort of worthwhile, but the RP are worse and you're still not getting the re-roll of 1's to the RP, and you don't have any obsec. I wish they could have found an easier way to sneak those relics in on somebody without paying through the nose
Put a moderately important vehicle in front of them and have them charge it. They'll pile in but not get a consolidation move. Apply wyvern fire. If you can average 3 hits per template, which should be doable if you're lucky since they'll be bunched up and you have a twin-linked barrage weapon, you can remove one wraith per wyvern firing. Not great, but that unit becomes a lot less scary at 3 models (see the math for them fighting conscripts in my previous post).
Automatically Appended Next Post: Additional thought. If the wraiths have started carving a path of destruction through your forces, their spyder may be in a place where you can tank shock it and force it to be more than 12" away.
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Then of course, there is the broken approach (This requires an SM/SoB/Inq force):
Severin Loth
Inquisitior with Rad grenades
2 priests (one with Litanies of the Faith)
6 Death Cult Assassins
4 Crusaders
430 + any extras on the inq + the LRC (which you probably want)
Severin Loth takes Biomancy: Enfeeble and the two self buffs to make his statline full of 7s.
When you assault (and there's no reason to get out of the LR before you can make sure you get the charge):
The wraiths will be T3 (Rad Grenades + Enfeeble), you will have +1A (charge), reroll to hit (priests), reroll to wound (priests), reroll to saves (priests), Litanies of the Faith means not having to roll to activate priest buffs.
At I7:
Severin Loth uses his axe to get +1A before punching the wraiths in the face. He makes 8 S7 attacks. 8/9 chance to hit, 35/36ths to wound, Instant Death. 6 wounds, 2 failed, 2 dead wraiths.
At I6:
The 6 DCAs make their 4 attacks each. 8/9ths to hit 8/9ths to wound. 19 wounds, 6 failed, 3 dead wraiths.
At I5:
Wraiths swing. Each one inflicts 1/2 * 5/6 * 3 = 1.25 wounds, which your rerollable 3+ laughs at.
At I4 and slower:
Hopefully you don't kill the last wraith so that you can be locked in combat during enemy shooting phase.
Automatically Appended Next Post: The upside of this approach is the wraiths should do no damage, and your squad should be ready hop back on and remove the next wraith squad in a turn or two.
50 conscripts + 2 priests = 200 pts.
Charge the wraiths (or get charged by them).
The wraiths hit an average of twice, 1.33 wounds, .33 rending wounds. The priests give you a save reroll, rerollable 5+ is 5/9ths chance so just under one conscript dead per wraith per turn.
Now in exchange, the conscripts... who cares. You've tarpitted the enemy unit for 8-9 assault phases for fewer points than they cost, and 52 models have a giant footprint. You could string the unit across the entire board and ensure the wraiths come close to it.
Ya anything like this will work fine. I have a friend who runs 40 fearless zombie horde (ia13) with 4+ fnp and usually abaddon inside (sometimes kharn). Nasty nasty unit and the guns behind it are even worse. Now of course S6 ignores their FNP but anything s5 or less doesn't and abaddon tanks and kills like no other. The hordes costs 120 pts.
Yeah wraiths can definitely be tarpitted. You just need someone who won't run and has a ton of wounds. Quantity over quality. After the initial charge, wraiths can take a while to grind through certain things. But if you're not fearless or the like, they tend to fail morale before the whole unit dies to claws
50 conscripts + 2 priests = 200 pts.
Charge the wraiths (or get charged by them).
The wraiths hit an average of twice, 1.33 wounds, .33 rending wounds. The priests give you a save reroll, rerollable 5+ is 5/9ths chance so just under one conscript dead per wraith per turn.
Now in exchange, the conscripts... who cares. You've tarpitted the enemy unit for 8-9 assault phases for fewer points than they cost, and 52 models have a giant footprint. You could string the unit across the entire board and ensure the wraiths come close to it.
How exactly do you plan to get a slow moving infantry squad into Combat with Wraiths, who are beasts?
Yeah, they can be tarpited.. But they are so fast they dictate the combats. Unless you have a tarpit that is equally as fast.
50 conscripts + 2 priests = 200 pts.
Charge the wraiths (or get charged by them).
The wraiths hit an average of twice, 1.33 wounds, .33 rending wounds. The priests give you a save reroll, rerollable 5+ is 5/9ths chance so just under one conscript dead per wraith per turn.
Now in exchange, the conscripts... who cares. You've tarpitted the enemy unit for 8-9 assault phases for fewer points than they cost, and 52 models have a giant footprint. You could string the unit across the entire board and ensure the wraiths come close to it.
How exactly do you plan to get a slow moving infantry squad into Combat with Wraiths, who are beasts?
Yeah, they can be tarpited.. But they are so fast they dictate the combats. Unless you have a tarpit that is equally as fast.
Infantry squads can be strung out 3" per model. (2" gap, 1" base). A 52 model squad could form a line 13' long. (Or really a rectangle 3.25' * 1') Not even wraith movement is going to get them through that if that unit is between them and their target.
Automatically Appended Next Post: They could of course, decline to engage the tarpit and give up any hope of attacking anything behind them until shooting attacks take chunks out of that unit, but last I checked, most cron shooting is 24" or less... so they'll be waiting a while if you're playing guard, deployed long range stuff on your back line and put a couple tarpits between you and the wraiths.
50 conscripts + 2 priests = 200 pts.
Charge the wraiths (or get charged by them).
The wraiths hit an average of twice, 1.33 wounds, .33 rending wounds. The priests give you a save reroll, rerollable 5+ is 5/9ths chance so just under one conscript dead per wraith per turn.
Now in exchange, the conscripts... who cares. You've tarpitted the enemy unit for 8-9 assault phases for fewer points than they cost, and 52 models have a giant footprint. You could string the unit across the entire board and ensure the wraiths come close to it.
How exactly do you plan to get a slow moving infantry squad into Combat with Wraiths, who are beasts?
Yeah, they can be tarpited.. But they are so fast they dictate the combats. Unless you have a tarpit that is equally as fast.
Infantry squads can be strung out 3" per model. (2" gap, 1" base). A 52 model squad could form a line 13' long. (Or really a rectangle 3.25' * 1') Not even wraith movement is going to get them through that if that unit is between them and their target.
Automatically Appended Next Post: They could of course, decline to engage the tarpit and give up any hope of attacking anything behind them until shooting attacks take chunks out of that unit, but last I checked, most cron shooting is 24" or less... so they'll be waiting a while if you're playing guard, deployed long range stuff on your back line and put a couple tarpits between you and the wraiths.
Most guns on the Cron Side are going to be in range on Turn 2. Things like Tomb blades are so fast, they can be in range Turn 1 on most things.
50 conscripts + 2 priests = 200 pts.
Charge the wraiths (or get charged by them).
The wraiths hit an average of twice, 1.33 wounds, .33 rending wounds. The priests give you a save reroll, rerollable 5+ is 5/9ths chance so just under one conscript dead per wraith per turn.
Now in exchange, the conscripts... who cares. You've tarpitted the enemy unit for 8-9 assault phases for fewer points than they cost, and 52 models have a giant footprint. You could string the unit across the entire board and ensure the wraiths come close to it.
How exactly do you plan to get a slow moving infantry squad into Combat with Wraiths, who are beasts?
Yeah, they can be tarpited.. But they are so fast they dictate the combats. Unless you have a tarpit that is equally as fast.
Infantry squads can be strung out 3" per model. (2" gap, 1" base). A 52 model squad could form a line 13' long. (Or really a rectangle 3.25' * 1') Not even wraith movement is going to get them through that if that unit is between them and their target.
Automatically Appended Next Post: They could of course, decline to engage the tarpit and give up any hope of attacking anything behind them until shooting attacks take chunks out of that unit, but last I checked, most cron shooting is 24" or less... so they'll be waiting a while if you're playing guard, deployed long range stuff on your back line and put a couple tarpits between you and the wraiths.
While now beasts, wraiths still possess a rule which allows them to move through other models. Nothing says they can't charge through another unit either, if it comes to that. The only requirement is ending up at least one inch away from the wrap, making it waaaay harder (but not impossible) to wrap properly vs wraiths.
Someone pointed out that if you go first shoot the wraiths, because the ability starts at the beginning of your turn. Not before the game begins, so that's somewhat of a bonus.
However the other person pointed out was that once it get's started unless you kill the Tomb Spyder in the first turn the Wraiths are always gonna keep the RP because the effect stays in effect until your following turn.
So
1st turn you go - Shoot Wraiths
1st turn Necrons - They get RP till the beginning of the Necrons 2nd Turn
Hollismason wrote: Someone pointed out that if you go first shoot the wraiths, because the ability starts at the beginning of your turn. Not before the game begins, so that's somewhat of a bonus.
However the other person pointed out was that once it get's started unless you kill the Tomb Spyder in the first turn the Wraiths are always gonna keep the RP because the effect stays in effect until your following turn.
So
1st turn you go - Shoot Wraiths
1st turn Necrons - They get RP till the beginning of the Necrons 2nd Turn
2 Turn You go Shoot the Spyder
This is honestly the first bit of really serious advice for fighting this formation that I have seen. Hats off to whoever thought of it.
Hollismason wrote: Someone pointed out that if you go first shoot the wraiths, because the ability starts at the beginning of your turn. Not before the game begins, so that's somewhat of a bonus.
However the other person pointed out was that once it get's started unless you kill the Tomb Spyder in the first turn the Wraiths are always gonna keep the RP because the effect stays in effect until your following turn.
So
1st turn you go - Shoot Wraiths
1st turn Necrons - They get RP till the beginning of the Necrons 2nd Turn
2 Turn You go Shoot the Spyder
This is honestly the first bit of really serious advice for fighting this formation that I have seen. Hats off to whoever thought of it.
Turn 2 - If the wraiths are going to be a serious problem, why not just shoot the wraiths again turn 2? What does the spyder provide (other than the +1 RP to the wraiths) that is an actual threat. Yes turn 2 shoot the spyder if you ain't got another threat to deal with, but if the RP bonus only applies start of turn 1 and you go first. I'd wipe the wraiths turn 1 if I could, or in turn 2 focus out those last remaining. I just son't see the +1FNP being so absurdly powerful that in the second turn if any wraiths were left you focussed the spyder in order to drop the +1RP. Plus in turn 2 if you have wiped the wraiths i'd imagine the rest of his list is probably a higher threat than the spyder.
The Spyder actually provides the Wraiths with the Reanimation Protocols and the Decurion Detachment rules make it a 4+, so their running around with a 3++ , 4++, because of that reason.
So it's smart on the first turn to down the Squad with shooting, but on the 2nd turn shoot at the Spyder, because the Wraiths are going to survive what you throw at them.
Here's some things:
Imperial Guard : Manticores, ST10 and it's AP doesn't matter, worsens their Reanimation Protocol. Monstrous Hunter order on the Spyder
Space Marines: ???
Dark Eldar : Grotesques actually. Statistically 5 Grotesques from a Grotesquirie will tie up and murder a unit of Wraiths as they don't care about their Rending attacks and are T5 , Wound 2+, 6s for instant death
Hollismason wrote: Someone pointed out that if you go first shoot the wraiths, because the ability starts at the beginning of your turn. Not before the game begins, so that's somewhat of a bonus.
However the other person pointed out was that once it get's started unless you kill the Tomb Spyder in the first turn the Wraiths are always gonna keep the RP because the effect stays in effect until your following turn.
So
1st turn you go - Shoot Wraiths
1st turn Necrons - They get RP till the beginning of the Necrons 2nd Turn
2 Turn You go Shoot the Spyder
This is honestly the first bit of really serious advice for fighting this formation that I have seen. Hats off to whoever thought of it.
Turn 2 - If the wraiths are going to be a serious problem, why not just shoot the wraiths again turn 2? What does the spyder provide (other than the +1 RP to the wraiths) that is an actual threat. Yes turn 2 shoot the spyder if you ain't got another threat to deal with, but if the RP bonus only applies start of turn 1 and you go first. I'd wipe the wraiths turn 1 if I could, or in turn 2 focus out those last remaining. I just son't see the +1FNP being so absurdly powerful that in the second turn if any wraiths were left you focussed the spyder in order to drop the +1RP. Plus in turn 2 if you have wiped the wraiths i'd imagine the rest of his list is probably a higher threat than the spyder.
Not a bad idea to try that. It's kind of like shooting at screamerstar if you get first turn before they get their powers up.
That being said, I still would rather start the wraiths in my own deployment zone (as an opposing player) and let them charge me first turn going first over going first under the LVO/BAO format. It's such a huge advantage currently that I feel does need to be addressed. My personal solution would be to score the maelstrom objectives at the end of the player turn and then of course the eternal war objective at the end of the game. Currently it's just so heavily weighted in the favor of whoever goes second. I can't think of a single alpha strike army that I would take first turn from if I had the option. I've been rolling to "anti-seize" at this point (made to go first, trying to change and go second) sadly no one wants to let me
Let's all take a deep breath. The Decurion detachment actually makes it pretty hard to effectively spam wraiths because you must buy everything in it as part of mini-formations. So for every group of wraiths you want to buy in a Decurion detachment, you must buy a Spyder and scarabs to accompany them. It's not a huge point tax, to be fair, but it also chips away at points you need to buy the units to effectively support the wraithwing. Remember what made old wraithwing scary? It was 18 wraiths supported by 2 destroyer lords, 3 annihilation barges and 2+ troop choices in Nightscythes or ghost arcs. It had really credible shooting threats that you couldn't ignore combined with a fast moving, outstanding assault element.
So looking closely at the Decurion detachment, you can add in the two nightscythes fairly easily as part of your base formation. But that's it. After you buy two wraith formations, you are now sitting at roughly 1300-1400 points. Now what? You don't have open slots to just add in annihilation barges like before. You could throw in a supporting CAD or (meta allowing) a Necron allied detachment, but now you have to pay the HQ and troop tax again before you add in support. You'll very easily reach the tourney standard 1850 and you're still down 6 wraiths compared to the previous wraithwing, plus some of the key shooting units that made it so good.
It's because statistically 5 T5 2 W wraiths at 43 ppm are basically the same as 6 35 point Wraiths , basically.
Also, the Formation isn't like schlock formation. The 4 Scarabs your going to get are a really great Tarpit unit. They have the 4+ RP protocol as well and are fearless. Your also getting a monstrous creature. Again it's a really good formation.
I think people forget that , it's 12 Wounds that are 4+ Fearless. That'll bog down a unit for a turn or two at least.
Hollismason wrote: It's because statistically 5 T5 2 W wraiths at 43 ppm are basically the same as 6 35 point Wraiths , basically.
Also, the Formation isn't like schlock formation. The 4 Scarabs your going to get are a really great Tarpit unit. They have the 4+ RP protocol as well and are fearless. Your also getting a monstrous creature. Again it's a really good formation.
I think people forget that , it's 12 Wounds that are 4+ Fearless. That'll bog down a unit for a turn or two at least.
But you are also losing the supporting units that made the old wraithwing good. The cheapest possible reclamation legion still forces you to field 1 Overlord, 2 units of Warriors, 1 unit of immortals and a unit of tomb blades. If you buy Nightscythes for the troops, you're looking at about 600 points. You need the Nightscythes anyway to cover anti-air and to bring in some much needed shooting.
Each Canoptek Harvest is about another 400 points. You buy two of them and you're at about 1400 points. You have 12 total wraiths versus the 18 you had previously. You've also lost the ability to field supporting units as individual choices. You can't just add in a vanilla unit of wraiths or 3 annihilation barges to round out the detachment. You actually have to field another formation (Annihilation Nexus) to just get 2 Barges and a Doomsday Ark or you have to pay a troop and HQ tax to open a second CAD.
Canoptek Harvest is a good formation. But spamming it makes your army actually really weak compared to the old wraithwing. You can focus on a unit of wraiths at a time while tarpitting someone else. S6+ shooting destroys scarabs all day and it is plentiful these days. You can even make the wraiths waste a turn of assault by staying hunkered up inside your transport because the supporting shooting just isn't there like it used to be. And more importantly, you have less wraiths.
Hollismason wrote: It's because statistically 5 T5 2 W wraiths at 43 ppm are basically the same as 6 35 point Wraiths , basically.
Also, the Formation isn't like schlock formation. The 4 Scarabs your going to get are a really great Tarpit unit. They have the 4+ RP protocol as well and are fearless. Your also getting a monstrous creature. Again it's a really good formation.
I think people forget that , it's 12 Wounds that are 4+ Fearless. That'll bog down a unit for a turn or two at least.
It's also only 12 T3 wounds that take double wounds from blasts and flamers and only has a 6+ save. Yes, you can build more from the Spyder and they can have RP if you want, but still. That's markedly easy to ID or kill with a couple flamers.
Baseline, you're paying, what, 110 extra points for that one squad of Wraiths, on top of any upgrades you might give them. That's a heavy tax, and you're also limiting their movement by a bit if you want the RP, which compounds it. On top of that, the stuff in Reclamation Legion is good, but you have to pay for it and can't just spam the one unit you like. We're not just getting 4+++RP Wraiths that fly around the field and can be spammed as much as before. It's limiting, but with a benefit. I think that's fair, honestly.
Talon of Anathrax wrote: I know that points wise it isn't always that effective, but couldn't a Mace Prince murder Wraiths? Or a least not die and eventually kill them all.
Ah well... In the last edition my solution to wraiths was generally Baledrakes and Vindicators, but that probably won't work any more now :(
I'd stick with Vindicators. For every three Wraiths you can get under the template one's getting IDed out.
The suggestions made in the thread thus far are interesting, but I think people are failing to take into consideration that:
A) Even without the 4+ RP formation, Wraiths are still durable as hell- durable enough that you simply aren't going to down an entire unit in one turn unless you focus the firepower of your whole army on them. That has its own problems because:
B) Without using the formations/Decuron you can fit three units of them with all the trimmings into a list for under 800 points. So that's not one, but three Wraith squads you have to deal with, as well as the rest of his army.
The more I think about it, the more I think that tarpitting is the way to go. Trying to shoot them down before they reach your lines just strikes me as inefficient at best or functionally impossible barring apocalypse-level units at worse.
wuestenfux wrote: You're talking about I5, but they can only get I3.
They have I2, but Whip Coils give +3 to Initiative.
You're right.
Whip coils are auto upgrades.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
PanzerLeader wrote: Let's all take a deep breath. The Decurion detachment actually makes it pretty hard to effectively spam wraiths because you must buy everything in it as part of mini-formations. So for every group of wraiths you want to buy in a Decurion detachment, you must buy a Spyder and scarabs to accompany them. It's not a huge point tax, to be fair, but it also chips away at points you need to buy the units to effectively support the wraithwing. Remember what made old wraithwing scary? It was 18 wraiths supported by 2 destroyer lords, 3 annihilation barges and 2+ troop choices in Nightscythes or ghost arcs. It had really credible shooting threats that you couldn't ignore combined with a fast moving, outstanding assault element.
So looking closely at the Decurion detachment, you can add in the two nightscythes fairly easily as part of your base formation. But that's it. After you buy two wraith formations, you are now sitting at roughly 1300-1400 points. Now what? You don't have open slots to just add in annihilation barges like before. You could throw in a supporting CAD or (meta allowing) a Necron allied detachment, but now you have to pay the HQ and troop tax again before you add in support. You'll very easily reach the tourney standard 1850 and you're still down 6 wraiths compared to the previous wraithwing, plus some of the key shooting units that made it so good.
Right.
The tax given by the combination of formations is too high for my liking.
The Wraiths are faster and more durable than before.
I'll rather include an Obelisk.
Kangodo wrote: But those three are: RP, Fleet and Shred. They always have MtC (lolwut?) and Relentless.
Oh damn. You do at least have to choose between whip coils and trans beamers, yes? Or do you just not have to make any decisions with the new Wraith formation?
Talon of Anathrax wrote: I know that points wise it isn't always that effective, but couldn't a Mace Prince murder Wraiths? Or a least not die and eventually kill them all.
Ah well... In the last edition my solution to wraiths was generally Baledrakes and Vindicators, but that probably won't work any more now :(
I'd stick with Vindicators. For every three Wraiths you can get under the template one's getting IDed out.
They still get 3++ AND a 5+ RP from an id hit. A vindicator shot that lands on 3 is only likely to kill 66% of one wraith. Granted it will be dead if it fails the two rolls, but you're not making up the huge point difference very fast if you're taking out a single 43 point model on a GOOD vindi shot. It also means your tank is within 24", and is at high risk.
astro_nomicon wrote: Don't you have to choose between RP or relentless each turn though? Or do they just get all of that?
The formation grants the units therein (So 1 unit of Scarabs, 1 unit of Wraiths, and a single Spyder) Move through Cover and Relentless. They have those all the time. Then, each of the controlling player's turns, you pick one of Shred, Fleet, or Reanimation Protocols and that is applied to the Scarabs or the Wraiths only if they are within 12" of the Spyder.
astro_nomicon wrote: Don't you have to choose between RP or relentless each turn though? Or do they just get all of that?
The formation grants the units therein (So 1 unit of Scarabs, 1 unit of Wraiths, and a single Spyder) Move through Cover and Relentless. They have those all the time. Then, each of the controlling player's turns, you pick one of Shred, Fleet, or Reanimation Protocols and that is applied to the Scarabs or the Wraiths only if they are within 12" of the Spyder.
That's exactly the rule.
Gives decursion and optional formations therein synergy which is hard to beat.
astro_nomicon wrote: Don't you have to choose between RP or relentless each turn though? Or do they just get all of that?
The formation grants the units therein (So 1 unit of Scarabs, 1 unit of Wraiths, and a single Spyder) Move through Cover and Relentless. They have those all the time. Then, each of the controlling player's turns, you pick one of Shred, Fleet, or Reanimation Protocols and that is applied to the Scarabs or the Wraiths only if they are within 12" of the Spyder.
I don't know what others think, but I can see a strong Necron army only including 1 Canoptek Harvest and still being scary. The new, buffed 4+ RP Wraiths are probably the single best "Deal With It" unit damn near ever. Either A.) the opponent has to focus quite nearly all of his firepower into the SINGLE unit of wraiths to hope to finish them or B.) the opponent largely ignores them in favor of shooting either the spyder or the rest of the Necron army. If A.) that's ~ 1600 pts of Necrons left unscathed as they march into their optimal range. If B.) a fully functional unit of murderbots has just reached your lines and will continue to mulch through it unless you have a dedicated CC unit of greater value, which the murderbots will, in all likelihood, neuter by the time you finish killing them.
wuestenfux wrote: Indeed, IK's are a way to counter Wraithwing, but it's more difficult for the Knights to come on top than it was before.
Meh. Lancers have a 5++ in CC so any rends that get through might be countered. Alternatively, volume of fire from a Castigator and even in CC with it's S10 deflagrate attack aren't terrible (though at I2).
wuestenfux wrote: Indeed, IK's are a way to counter Wraithwing, but it's more difficult for the Knights to come on top than it was before.
Meh. Lancers have a 5++ in CC so any rends that get through might be countered. Alternatively, volume of fire from a Castigator and even in CC with it's S10 deflagrate attack aren't terrible (though at I2).
Well that and if you really wana get silly you could always chuck a forewarning, power field, invisibility on and drink necron P envy tears (psychic )
wuestenfux wrote: Indeed, IK's are a way to counter Wraithwing, but it's more difficult for the Knights to come on top than it was before.
Meh. Lancers have a 5++ in CC so any rends that get through might be countered. Alternatively, volume of fire from a Castigator and even in CC with it's S10 deflagrate attack aren't terrible (though at I2).
Well that and if you really wana get silly you could always chuck a forewarning, power field, invisibility on and drink necron P envy tears (psychic )
endlesswaltz123 wrote: When all the power gamers turn up at tournaments with a necron army full of wraiths... They may as well roll a dice to see who wins the game.
On a serious note though, allied in group of wraiths for counter charge duties.
Baseline Wraiths are good, but not nearly as good as with the Formation and Decurion. And as has been said, it's very hard to spam them in that situation.
TAU PLAYERS DON'T READ THIS
Spoiler:
But yeah, the Canoptek Formation would be absolutely bonkers for something like Tau to bring. Allies of Convenience, here's an assault-focused Formation that you can easily fit in and is entirely nasty.
Not very good allies for Tau because of the Reclamation Legion tax. Although you could be really evil and do a Decurion Detachment with the RL and the CH and then bring in the Fire Base Cadre formation of 6 broadsides and 1 riptide.
PanzerLeader wrote: Not very good allies for Tau because of the Reclamation Legion tax. Although you could be really evil and do a Decurion Detachment with the RL and the CH and then bring in the Fire Base Cadre formation of 6 broadsides and 1 riptide.
You don't need the Reclamation Legion. All of the Necron Formations can be taken as normal Formations, but if part of a Decurion they get the extra bonuses (+1RP and semi-IWND on Heavy/Superheavy vehicles). So yes, you can just take Canoptek Swarm in any list.
BoomWolf wrote: Honestly the only half-decent pieces of stratagy I've seen here are "tarpit it" and "get the spider first"
Getting the spider is not that easy. and not every faction has decent tarpit units.
What are they supposed to do?
The wraiths WILL land a turn 2 assault. they WILL wipe out anything they touch, and they WILL survive to do the same on turn 3, and 4.
I'm struggling to try figure out what were GW thinking there, and seriously hoping there is a day 1 faq about them like missile drones had....
Some factions will beat Wraiths in combat, and some shoot them to death fairly easily. A few Wave Serpents or a unit of Broadsides will drop them down to a manageable size pretty quickly.
BoomWolf wrote: Honestly the only half-decent pieces of stratagy I've seen here are "tarpit it" and "get the spider first"
Getting the spider is not that easy. and not every faction has decent tarpit units. What are they supposed to do?
The wraiths WILL land a turn 2 assault. they WILL wipe out anything they touch, and they WILL survive to do the same on turn 3, and 4.
I'm struggling to try figure out what were GW thinking there, and seriously hoping there is a day 1 faq about them like missile drones had....
Some factions will beat Wraiths in combat, and some shoot them to death fairly easily. A few Wave Serpents or a unit of Broadsides will drop them down to a manageable size pretty quickly.
Requiring a bit more than 7 HITS before killing one wraith? (double that for the 4+++)
good luck man. though they do have the best chance at range,.
BoomWolf wrote: Honestly the only half-decent pieces of stratagy I've seen here are "tarpit it" and "get the spider first"
Getting the spider is not that easy. and not every faction has decent tarpit units.
What are they supposed to do?
The wraiths WILL land a turn 2 assault. they WILL wipe out anything they touch, and they WILL survive to do the same on turn 3, and 4.
I'm struggling to try figure out what were GW thinking there, and seriously hoping there is a day 1 faq about them like missile drones had....
Some factions will beat Wraiths in combat, and some shoot them to death fairly easily. A few Wave Serpents or a unit of Broadsides will drop them down to a manageable size pretty quickly.
A unit of three missilesides, with markerlights bumping their BS to 5, and giving them smart-missile systems as well, will put
Personally I think GW was overcompensating for having reduced wraiths' effectiveness on the charge via taking out the S6 Hammer of Wrath, which I suspect they did to increase the difference between them and Praetorians.
Remember, you don't necessarily have to kill the spyder. You could also tank shock it back a bit (if he's hanging out right at that 12" mark) or bait the wraiths into charging too far forward.
BoomWolf wrote: Honestly the only half-decent pieces of stratagy I've seen here are "tarpit it" and "get the spider first"
Getting the spider is not that easy. and not every faction has decent tarpit units.
What are they supposed to do?
The wraiths WILL land a turn 2 assault. they WILL wipe out anything they touch, and they WILL survive to do the same on turn 3, and 4.
I'm struggling to try figure out what were GW thinking there, and seriously hoping there is a day 1 faq about them like missile drones had....
Wraiths have never wiped out anything they touch man.
Let's be real here, without 4 anni barges and 3 ccb's (the former versions) a decurion wraithwing isn't worth the trouble. I've tried to make lists to abuse double harvest, they have no ranged presence. Durable? Ya but they'd better be because they are the only targets. Specifically the spyder but the wraiths are game too if packing s10 or D. The spyder can also be interdicted by complete throw away units very easily. Then what? Do the wraiths slow their roll to stay in range? They get shot either way.
The formation is amazing but it needs guns or all out assault. I just don't see an army getting enough of either trying to spam wraiths from decurion.
BoomWolf wrote: Honestly the only half-decent pieces of stratagy I've seen here are "tarpit it" and "get the spider first"
Getting the spider is not that easy. and not every faction has decent tarpit units.
What are they supposed to do?
The wraiths WILL land a turn 2 assault. they WILL wipe out anything they touch, and they WILL survive to do the same on turn 3, and 4.
I'm struggling to try figure out what were GW thinking there, and seriously hoping there is a day 1 faq about them like missile drones had....
Wraiths have never wiped out anything they touch man.
Let's be real here, without 4 anni barges and 3 ccb's (the former versions) a decurion wraithwing isn't worth the trouble. I've tried to make lists to abuse double harvest, they have no ranged presence. Durable? Ya but they'd better be because they are the only targets. Specifically the spyder but the wraiths are game too if packing s10 or D. The spyder can also be interdicted by complete throw away units very easily. Then what? Do the wraiths slow their roll to stay in range? They get shot either way.
The formation is amazing but it needs guns or all out assault. I just don't see an army getting enough of either trying to spam wraiths from decurion.
Ha yes i've said this multiple times in this thread and no one seems to listen.
The points value in the Wraith's is just silly. Doing the math vs. Grotesques (similar points value) the Wraiths mop the floor with them, all while being quicker and more durable. 5:1 wounds in combat. Wraith Guard are a decent counter option, but to make it work you need a lot of HQ support, so it's no longer an apples/apples comparison (though Wraith Gate is a solid and fun unit to run as TAC). I don't feel like I need to bring up how poorly terminators fair.
Tar pitting is realistically the best option. Bury them in a ton of fearless/stubborn models and kill everything else. Eldar/DE will have the option of out running them, but pretty much everyone else needs to have a sacrificial squad to offer up. Even then, if more than the minimum is invested in spyders, the scarabs can be buffed up to bail the wraiths out. Two of these formations running side by side is basically letting you run Wraith-Wing and Scarab-Farm out of the last dex, just more durable.
I really like how synergistic this combo is, I just hope the rest of the codices are getting this kind of innovation. More likely, this is a "cool idea" that didn't get play tested properly and is just hyper imbalanced.
Dash2021 wrote: The points value in the Wraith's is just silly. Doing the math vs. Grotesques (similar points value) the Wraiths mop the floor with them,
Really? Taking the flesh gauntlet's lethal dose into account, I see they're about even, the wraith maybe a little ahead. This is assuming the Grotesque has 4+ FNP, which is probable.
If the Grotesque gets the charge, if he is at the Furious Charge level of PFP, he comes out ahead.
I find it funny that people focus so much on the wraiths when to me the better formation is the flayed ones.
Here me out, you can take 1-10 with no tax and they will literally mulch anything in the game DH wraiths included after BEING assaulted lol.
I'd much rather take max tomb blades and a couple probably 2-3 20 man bricks of flayed ones. With infiltrate and DS they are also amazing for objectives, since they are incredibly inefficient targets to blast off with shooting, and will kill anything that charges them, all while having a footprint big enough to box out objectives.
6 wraiths w/ WC=258
20 Flayed ones=260
and for each unit of wraiths that's a 110 point tax that gets me 5 tomb blades with neb scopes and S vanes.
Hello one unstoppable force meet my immovable object.
For anyone else just use MSU. Wraith heavy lists lack guns, let them spend 2 turns chasing down that rhino only to see two combat squads emerge on opposite sides. It will take 3 assaults to kill that unit, if they are white scars like my army and fail to finish them to a man I'll hit and run and make you pay another turns focus on that last guy.
It's really not that hard to beat on the table if you put some thought into it.
Yep flayed ones are much better now with more attacks and 4+ RP. And shred whut! Still their main downfall is lack of fearless. Now how often it will be fatal is hard to quantify..probably not all that often. Definitely an interesting alternative and a great place for a tek and/or D Lord. Not as mobile or durable as wraiths but far more threatening in damage output and a much more useful footprint.
Red Corsair wrote: I find it funny that people focus so much on the wraiths when to me the better formation is the flayed ones.
Here me out, you can take 1-10 with no tax and they will literally mulch anything in the game DH wraiths included after BEING assaulted lol.
I'd much rather take max tomb blades and a couple probably 2-3 20 man bricks of flayed ones. With infiltrate and DS they are also amazing for objectives, since they are incredibly inefficient targets to blast off with shooting, and will kill anything that charges them, all while having a footprint big enough to box out objectives.
6 wraiths w/ WC=258
20 Flayed ones=260
and for each unit of wraiths that's a 110 point tax that gets me 5 tomb blades with neb scopes and S vanes.
Hello one unstoppable force meet my immovable object.
For anyone else just use MSU. Wraith heavy lists lack guns, let them spend 2 turns chasing down that rhino only to see two combat squads emerge on opposite sides. It will take 3 assaults to kill that unit, if they are white scars like my army and fail to finish them to a man I'll hit and run and make you pay another turns focus on that last guy.
It's really not that hard to beat on the table if you put some thought into it.
This^^^
I honestly don't care or fear 12 wraiths from 2 harvest detschments in a decorian detachment that costs almost the same amount with all the required units in that detachment.
Seriously they don't have enough attacks to go through a fearless greentide and they will eventually die and the tide rolls on.
~300 ws5 atks at str3 (+100atks and +1 str on charge) and 25-33 ws5 atks at str8-9 ap2 on toughness 4, 4+, 5++, 5+++ units that can move, run, charge the same turn w rerolls and an additional 103 HoWatks or snapshots if they are charged.
Byte wrote: 100 attacks hitting on 3s and rerolling wounds with no guardsmen armor save.
Overkill is good...
How good are they with a destroyer lord in them? Can't the d.Lord still get a 2+? And the PE added to flayed ones I'm sure helps them out even more. Maybe wraiths are a red harring and Destroyer lord/flayed one is the new op....
Dash2021 wrote: The points value in the Wraith's is just silly. Doing the math vs. Grotesques (similar points value) the Wraiths mop the floor with them,
Really? Taking the flesh gauntlet's lethal dose into account, I see they're about even, the wraith maybe a little ahead. This is assuming the Grotesque has 4+ FNP, which is probable.
If the Grotesque gets the charge, if he is at the Furious Charge level of PFP, he comes out ahead.
I think, maybe the math is wrong.
6 Wraiths vs. 7 Grotesques (~same points) the math varies dramatically depending on who you assume gets the charge. I give Wraiths the charge, because honestly there's no reason they wouldn't. Grotesques in a raider is a massive target that should be shot down first/second turn and stranded, not to mention the squad only numbers 5 inside a raider (max) which makes the outcome for them even worse. Also assume I5 on the wraiths (again, why wouldn't you).
Wraiths Charge:
24 attacks -> 12 hits -> 8 wounds (7.9 rounded) -> 4 (3.96) unsaved wounds. Rend and the one armor save would cancel out, assumed 4+ FnP on the Grotesques.
So On the charge the Wraiths kill 1.3 Grotesques, and the Grotesques kill .5 wraiths. Next round of combat, Wraiths do 3 (2.97) unsaved wounds and Grotesques do 1.
I did forget to give the Grotesques the extra combat weapon attack the first time I did the numbers, so that accounts for a little difference (4:.1.2 vs 5:1). However, I'm also being pretty generous assuming a 4+ FnP for the grotesques as you suggest, which I didn't previously. Most of the time it will be 5+, which cranks up the wounds to 5:1.2 first round, and kills an extra grotesque in the second round. For lethal dose to come into play, the 1 wound the grotesques get through every round has to be a lethal dose, and the wraiths still only lose a model 50% of the time then. Still not taking into account low LD of Grotesques, which is another drawback the Wraiths don't have.
If Grotesques get the charge they do fair better, no doubt. But If the Grotesques get the charge, the necron player is doing something very wrong. Also, if outside of the Canoptek Harvest the wounds do come out to be ~ even. These are pretty generous conditions for the grotesques though. Most of the time they'll be in a raider, accompanied by a Character, meaning units of 4 + whatever Char you put with them. One unsaved wound on a Char from the wraiths will double them out (whooray T3 characters), and the characters dmg output will be at best the same as the Grotesques.
Throw them a 5 TWC unit with a runepriest in bike casting biomancy and using some fancy relic, all equiped with power mauls and SS, or the mauls paired with bolt pistol (if you feel luky with biomancy and gaining endurance), thats 20 S7 attacks, or 25 if you choose the pistols.
You can always choose to put instead a wolfpriest for PE and fearless and tied the unit (dont forget fnp of the priest) or a wolf lord using the cahmpion of fenris relics, wearing the morkais claws.
As wraith have a inv save you need numbers of attacks or a rescilence unit to tied them in cc as fast as you can, if you can kill a squad of terminator with weight of fire, you can kill this things; I know, termies are t4, but there are a lot of options in all the armies to have a lot of high strenght fire power, i think that even a squad of devastetors with hb can make severe damage to a wraith unit
Hmm... I'm thinking kick them to death with Helbrutes? I'm working on a multipurpose Murderpack (squadron of five). I'll take some damage from S6 Rending, but every wound that gets through 3++ will frag one, except for the one with no PF/TH.
Mutilators might be able to achieve MAD with Marks, too.
People are going on about wraiths, but as far as I can tell the most improved units in the codex are Flayed Ones and Triarch Praetorians, both of which have turned into murder machines. Praetorians as part of the Judicator formation especially, though that shares the same synapse-like issues as Canoptek Harvest. (I really like this by the way. It seems that GW has gone the route of making single units the lynchpins in the formations, which makes sense because they are machines being controlled from a central core. I like this a lot actually.)
Anyway for reasons stated above I don't think that Wraiths will normally be used in that specific formation and so their (sometime) 4+ RP will not be applicable.
Anyway for reasons stated above I don't think that Wraiths will normally be used in that specific formation and so their (sometime) 4+ RP will not be applicable.
This formation is too costly:
Spyder, 5 Wraiths w/ whip coils, 3 Scarabs
are 325 pts.
Acceptible in an apoc game, but hardly at the (competitive) 1850 pt level.
Alcibiades wrote: People are going on about wraiths, but as far as I can tell the most improved units in the codex are Flayed Ones and Triarch Praetorians, both of which have turned into murder machines. Praetorians as part of the Judicator formation especially, though that shares the same synapse-like issues as Canoptek Harvest. (I really like this by the way. It seems that GW has gone the route of making single units the lynchpins in the formations, which makes sense because they are machines being controlled from a central core. I like this a lot actually.)
Anyway for reasons stated above I don't think that Wraiths will normally be used in that specific formation and so their (sometime) 4+ RP will not be applicable.
Agreed. I think the Flayed Ones are the sleeper cell.
Alcibiades wrote: hah, I jjust realized that in the formation,, giving a full squad Scarabs Shred will do serious damage to even things like wraithknights.
Alcibiades wrote: People are going on about wraiths, but as far as I can tell the most improved units in the codex are Flayed Ones and Triarch Praetorians, both of which have turned into murder machines. Praetorians as part of the Judicator formation especially, though that shares the same synapse-like issues as Canoptek Harvest. (I really like this by the way. It seems that GW has gone the route of making single units the lynchpins in the formations, which makes sense because they are machines being controlled from a central core. I like this a lot actually.)
Anyway for reasons stated above I don't think that Wraiths will normally be used in that specific formation and so their (sometime) 4+ RP will not be applicable.
Agreed. I think the Flayed Ones are the sleeper cell.
Indeed, a finecast sleeper cell.
Five men for 35 Euro.
Alcibiades wrote: hah, I jjust realized that in the formation,, giving a full squad Scarabs Shred will do serious damage to even things like wraithknights.
S3 still can't hurt T8.
Entropic Strikes now allows them to wound anything on a 6, even if their strength is too low.
Alcibiades wrote: People are going on about wraiths, but as far as I can tell the most improved units in the codex are Flayed Ones and Triarch Praetorians, both of which have turned into murder machines. Praetorians as part of the Judicator formation especially, though that shares the same synapse-like issues as Canoptek Harvest. (I really like this by the way. It seems that GW has gone the route of making single units the lynchpins in the formations, which makes sense because they are machines being controlled from a central core. I like this a lot actually.)
Anyway for reasons stated above I don't think that Wraiths will normally be used in that specific formation and so their (sometime) 4+ RP will not be applicable.
Agreed. I think the Flayed Ones are the sleeper cell.
The main difference between flayed ones and wraiths comes in speed and durability. that's why nobody complains about flayed.
Both will murderize anything they can reach, but wraiths are fast moving, and feature a T5 3++ 4+++ profile-flayed? are slower, and far more easy to kill with a weak armor and no invuls, and they cannot chase you as quickly around if you try to outmaneuver them.
Flayed WILL hit like a truck, but at least you got a half-decent chance to kill them before they reach you. wraiths? not so much.
As for pretorians, I don't know what their formation does, but they still have the speed issue, even if they are harder to kill than the flayed.
Alcibiades wrote: People are going on about wraiths, but as far as I can tell the most improved units in the codex are Flayed Ones and Triarch Praetorians, both of which have turned into murder machines. Praetorians as part of the Judicator formation especially, though that shares the same synapse-like issues as Canoptek Harvest. (I really like this by the way. It seems that GW has gone the route of making single units the lynchpins in the formations, which makes sense because they are machines being controlled from a central core. I like this a lot actually.)
Anyway for reasons stated above I don't think that Wraiths will normally be used in that specific formation and so their (sometime) 4+ RP will not be applicable.
Agreed. I think the Flayed Ones are the sleeper cell.
I guess that makes Grotesques the same thing, a unit of 7 will cost the Canadian 210$....
I guess my best choice as a Dark Eldar, and Tau player would be:
Dark Eldar: Loads of poison as normal, the Covens talos/cronos/haemy formation... t7/3+/4+++ no invuln but it should be able to handle a few of them without doing the math hammer, but would likely get trashed in the process.
Tau, much easier:
Unbound: unit of 12 cadre fireblades = 158 S5 shots at BS5 from 30" away, only getting better in rapid fire range. That's 720 pts, then fitting in as many HYMP broadsides as I can for a gun line behind them, and depending on the points the FW Y'varha or Rvarna. Both those new riptides will put a hammering out and help that list overall.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Yes, FireBlades + 1 shot for hanging out together do stack.
Edit: I also have 100 kroot laying around. I wonder how they would far with sniper rounds. That's around 810 points I believe.
Alcibiades wrote: hah, I jjust realized that in the formation,, giving a full squad Scarabs Shred will do serious damage to even things like wraithknights.
As for pretorians, I don't know what their formation does, but they still have the speed issue, even if they are harder to kill than the flayed.
The Triarch Stalker that they are fielded with allows them to rereroll to hit and to wound rolls against 1 target in LOS, as well as the standard +1 to BS if they are within 12" of it.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Mathematically, if we are comparing Wraiths, FOs, and TPs, Praetorians (at least with the rod) have highest damage output against heavy infantry and Flayed Ones the highest against light infantry. Wraiths are in the middle.
Dash2021 wrote: The points value in the Wraith's is just silly. Doing the math vs. Grotesques (similar points value) the Wraiths mop the floor with them,
Really? Taking the flesh gauntlet's lethal dose into account, I see they're about even, the wraith maybe a little ahead. This is assuming the Grotesque has 4+ FNP, which is probable.
If the Grotesque gets the charge, if he is at the Furious Charge level of PFP, he comes out ahead.
I think, maybe the math is wrong.
6 Wraiths vs. 7 Grotesques (~same points) the math varies dramatically depending on who you assume gets the charge. I give Wraiths the charge, because honestly there's no reason they wouldn't. Grotesques in a raider is a massive target that should be shot down first/second turn and stranded, not to mention the squad only numbers 5 inside a raider (max) which makes the outcome for them even worse. Also assume I5 on the wraiths (again, why wouldn't you).
Wraiths Charge:
24 attacks -> 12 hits -> 8 wounds (7.9 rounded) -> 4 (3.96) unsaved wounds. Rend and the one armor save would cancel out, assumed 4+ FnP on the Grotesques.
So On the charge the Wraiths kill 1.3 Grotesques, and the Grotesques kill .5 wraiths. Next round of combat, Wraiths do 3 (2.97) unsaved wounds and Grotesques do 1.
I did forget to give the Grotesques the extra combat weapon attack the first time I did the numbers, so that accounts for a little difference (4:.1.2 vs 5:1). However, I'm also being pretty generous assuming a 4+ FnP for the grotesques as you suggest, which I didn't previously. Most of the time it will be 5+, which cranks up the wounds to 5:1.2 first round, and kills an extra grotesque in the second round. For lethal dose to come into play, the 1 wound the grotesques get through every round has to be a lethal dose, and the wraiths still only lose a model 50% of the time then. Still not taking into account low LD of Grotesques, which is another drawback the Wraiths don't have.
If Grotesques get the charge they do fair better, no doubt. But If the Grotesques get the charge, the necron player is doing something very wrong. Also, if outside of the Canoptek Harvest the wounds do come out to be ~ even. These are pretty generous conditions for the grotesques though. Most of the time they'll be in a raider, accompanied by a Character, meaning units of 4 + whatever Char you put with them. One unsaved wound on a Char from the wraiths will double them out (whooray T3 characters), and the characters dmg output will be at best the same as the Grotesques.
You're math is wrong, because 1. Grotesques from the Grotesquirie, get a random bonus which can in fact include +1 ST, +1 T, 2. Grotesques eventually get It Will not Die, so your facing them eventually with FNP and It Will not Die 3. They get Rampage, if you out number them.
I've done the math on this and even with the 3+ 4+ the Wraiths won't wipe out the Grotesques. In fact the Grotesques eventually grind them down. Also any instant deaths worsen the Wraiths RP.
Also 5 Grotesques vs. 6 wraiths and there's really no reason to think you would not get the charge.
Alcibiades wrote: People are going on about wraiths, but as far as I can tell the most improved units in the codex are Flayed Ones and Triarch Praetorians, both of which have turned into murder machines. Praetorians as part of the Judicator formation especially, though that shares the same synapse-like issues as Canoptek Harvest. (I really like this by the way. It seems that GW has gone the route of making single units the lynchpins in the formations, which makes sense because they are machines being controlled from a central core. I like this a lot actually.)
Anyway for reasons stated above I don't think that Wraiths will normally be used in that specific formation and so their (sometime) 4+ RP will not be applicable.
Agreed. I think the Flayed Ones are the sleeper cell.
The main difference between flayed ones and wraiths comes in speed and durability. that's why nobody complains about flayed.
Both will murderize anything they can reach, but wraiths are fast moving, and feature a T5 3++ 4+++ profile-flayed? are slower, and far more easy to kill with a weak armor and no invuls, and they cannot chase you as quickly around if you try to outmaneuver them.
Flayed WILL hit like a truck, but at least you got a half-decent chance to kill them before they reach you. wraiths? not so much.
As for pretorians, I don't know what their formation does, but they still have the speed issue, even if they are harder to kill than the flayed.
Flayed ones are just as durable as a whole unit though. 20 wounds compared to 12 with a 4+ 4+++ rather then a 3++, if you add the dark harvest tax I almost get another 10 flayed ones. Flayed ones don't need to move fast since they can deploy ANYWHERE and basically make a zone of control where no one wants to send units. I'd rather run flayed ones personally, since you can make them from old necron warriors off ebay they are actually cheaper monetarily then wraiths as well.
If I am going to take a FA choice, it will be tomb blades through and through. With neb scopes a unit of ten kills a 3 HP vehicle every volley, wave serpents included. They currently are the most durable and point efficient unit in the book for killing armor which is the MAJOR deficiency in the new book.
Wraiths are great looking, but you need to remember they are expensive, have no shooting, and struggle to themselves kill things with a moderate save. 3ws 4 s6 ap- attacks is solid, but not amazing. They lack the volume to rely on rending tings that count like wraith knights and IK. Heck they even struggle to chop up 10 man tac squads. I think the slightly less durable but WAY more killy unit are the praetorians.
Hell I'll figure out damage output on the charge against, I dunno, MEQ. I'll contrast three Flayed Ones, one Wraith with a particle caster, and a Triarch Praetorian with a rod. The Triarch is actually about 12 points cheaper than the other variants. This doesn't factor in overwatch or the enemy attacking. The Praetorian has the benefits from the Judicator Formation.
3 Flayed Ones
CC Attacks 1.875
Wraith
Particle Caster .185
CC Attacks .778
Total .963
Triarch Praetorian
Rod Shooting .864
Hammer of Wrath .22
CC Attacks 2.0
Total 3.084
If you give the Wraith Shred it goes up to about 1.1.
Alcibiades wrote: Hell I'll figure out damage output on the charge against, I dunno, MEQ. I'll contrast three Flayed Ones, one Wraith with a particle caster, and a Triarch Praetorian with a rod. The Triarch is actually about 12 points cheaper than the other variants. This doesn't factor in overwatch or the enemy attacking. The Praetorian has the benefits from the Judicator Formation.
3 Flayed Ones
CC Attacks 1.875
Wraith
Particle Caster .185
CC Attacks .778
Total .963
Triarch Praetorian
Rod Shooting .864
Hammer of Wrath .22
CC Attacks 2.0
Total 3.084
If you give the Wraith Shred it goes up to about 1.1.
Alcibiades wrote: Hell I'll figure out damage output on the charge against, I dunno, MEQ. I'll contrast three Flayed Ones, one Wraith with a particle caster, and a Triarch Praetorian with a rod. The Triarch is actually about 12 points cheaper than the other variants. This doesn't factor in overwatch or the enemy attacking. The Praetorian has the benefits from the Judicator Formation.
3 Flayed Ones
CC Attacks 1.875
Wraith
Particle Caster .185
CC Attacks .778
Total .963
Triarch Praetorian
Rod Shooting .864
Hammer of Wrath .22
CC Attacks 2.0
Total 3.084
If you give the Wraith Shred it goes up to about 1.1.
That Praetorian math is pretty off.
Rod has 1 shot
1 x 2/3 x 2/3 = .444
3 CC attacks
3 x 1/2 x 2/3 = 1
1.667
Both of our maths is off.
Praetorian gets a reroll to hit and wound plus +1 BS for his formation.
Alcibiades wrote: Hell I'll figure out damage output on the charge against, I dunno, MEQ. I'll contrast three Flayed Ones, one Wraith with a particle caster, and a Triarch Praetorian with a rod. The Triarch is actually about 12 points cheaper than the other variants. This doesn't factor in overwatch or the enemy attacking. The Praetorian has the benefits from the Judicator Formation.
3 Flayed Ones
CC Attacks 1.875
Wraith
Particle Caster .185
CC Attacks .778
Total .963
Triarch Praetorian
Rod Shooting .864
Hammer of Wrath .22
CC Attacks 2.0
Total 3.084
If you give the Wraith Shred it goes up to about 1.1.
That Praetorian math is pretty off.
Rod has 1 shot
1 x 2/3 x 2/3 = .444
3 CC attacks
3 x 1/2 x 2/3 = 1
1.667
Both of our maths is off.
Praetorian gets a reroll to hit and wound plus +1 BS for his formation.
Rod is actually ..79
Hammer is .22
CC is 2.
Total 3.01
Ack missed the part where it was in a formation, however the formation doesn't effect CC because it only lasts till the end of the phase and is chosen in the shooting phase.
So your original Rod Shooting was right. But he should still only deal 1 wound in CC.
Ack missed the part where it was in a formation, however the formation doesn't effect CC because it only lasts till the end of the phase and is chosen in the shooting phase.
So your original Rod Shooting was right. But he should still only deal 1 wound in CC.
2.084
Ack, I didn't catch that. Thanks.
Still, he beats both other choices impressively, especially considering that he is cheaper.
Come to think of it, a Praetorian with VB and PC has the exact same damage output as a Wraith agaiinst anything with a 2+ or 3+ and much higher otherwise (even higher if he gets HoW), and is cheaper.
Wraiths are not one of the units in the codex that make other units vanish. They are durable, but that is another issue.
Automatically Appended Next Post: EDIT: wait no he doesn't since he is S5 instead of S6. Never mind. He'll still be better against 4+ or higher though.
Power weapons will cut through them. (And are they high Init like the Wraiths or will they be carved up before they even swing?)
2 Int.
I think you mean 3+/4+++.
A maine sarge with a power sword wiill out 1/2 x 1/3 x 1/2 = 1/12 x 2 = 1/6 wounds on one. wooo.
Automatically Appended Next Post: oh sorry you meant flayed ones. So 1/2 x 1/2 x 1/2 x 2 = 1/4 wounds.
I think he is referring to the fact that wraiths has a 3 up invulnerable save versus the normal armour save on the flayed ones. So it is 3+/3++/4+++ vs 4+/4+++. At least with with the canoptek swarm in play.
Power weapons will cut through them. (And are they high Init like the Wraiths or will they be carved up before they even swing?)
2 Int.
I think you mean 3+/4+++.
A maine sarge with a power sword wiill out 1/2 x 1/3 x 1/2 = 1/12 x 2 = 1/6 wounds on one. wooo.
Automatically Appended Next Post: oh sorry you meant flayed ones. So 1/2 x 1/2 x 1/2 x 2 = 1/4 wounds.
I think he is referring to the fact that wraiths has a 3 up invulnerable save versus the normal armour save on the flayed ones. So it is 3+/3++/4+++ vs 4+/4+++. At least with with the canoptek swarm in play.
Sure, wraiths are more durable than flayed ones and most enemies will strike first... but even if you somehow magically get a 20-robot-ninja FO squad down to 10 before the strike they're still going to slaughter just about anything short of T8 or an AV11+ vehicle. Wraiths won't; they really don't have high damage output.
(Moreover wraiths only get RP in the formation and FOs always have it.)
a lot of people are deluded if they think they are keeping their 12 beast move unit with fleet and run within 12" of a 6" + normal run spyder every turn. The spyder is starting behind or to the side of the wraiths and the wraiths are moving away from it at roughly double its speed, and on the turn they charge triple its speed. The wraiths are not going into assault turn 2 and being in 12" of the spyder for RP most of the time.
an equal point of flayed ones to wraiths, the flayed ones getting charged will see the wraiths hit 12 times, cause 2 rends and 8 other wounds. Flayed ones on the other hand will most likely be in range of something to get +1 RP and reroll to RP. 8 other wounds will give 4 failed saves, 2 failed RP rolls, 1 failed after reroll, the 2 rends will on average give .5 casualties. lets be nice to the wraiths and round up, they killed 2 flayed ones, leaving 18. 18 flayed ones strike back with 72 attacks, assuming no PE or anything they get 36 hits, 20 wounds after shred rerolls. Wraiths will fail on average 7 saves, thats 3 dead and 1 wound floating. If they have RP, chances are they may not, they will still suffer 3 wounds, removing one. The following rounds where the wraiths no longer have the charge bonus will see them slowly eaten by flayed ones.
Speed is great, but when you end up moving out of what buffs you at the start of a turn, or have to stay close to it you have to decide sometimes to give up speed for buffs. Also speed is great, but an unit with 20 models that infiltrates has a large area it takes up, you can move through models, but you can't end within 1" of them. The wraiths are not just going to outmaneuver everything and rampage around untouchable like people think.
Power weapons will cut through them. (And are they high Init like the Wraiths or will they be carved up before they even swing?)
2 Int.
I think you mean 3+/4+++.
A maine sarge with a power sword wiill out 1/2 x 1/3 x 1/2 = 1/12 x 2 = 1/6 wounds on one. wooo.
Automatically Appended Next Post: oh sorry you meant flayed ones. So 1/2 x 1/2 x 1/2 x 2 = 1/4 wounds.
I think he is referring to the fact that wraiths has a 3 up invulnerable save versus the normal armour save on the flayed ones. So it is 3+/3++/4+++ vs 4+/4+++. At least with with the canoptek swarm in play.
Sure, wraiths are more durable than flayed ones and most enemies will strike first... but even if you somehow magically get a 20-robot-ninja FO squad down to 10 before the strike they're still going to slaughter just about anything short of T8 or an AV11+ vehicle. Wraiths won't; they really don't have high damage output.
(Moreover wraiths only get RP in the formation and FOs always have it.)
I referr you back to the unit I suggested for killing the Wraiths. Rerollable 3++ crusaders backed by DCAs who get 4 S4 AP3 attacks on the charge. The wraiths could survive, the FO... well, they got RP, I guess. Heck, the FO don't even swing before the crusaders who in this case can actually wound them well enough. If you keep the full ridiclousness of Severin Loth in there, RP drops to 5++, but at that point the FO are fighting nearly double their points and the fact that they get cut down before they swing isn't really that shocking.
Actually, FO have another potential counter. A LSS can drop a blind template weapon on them and nerf their killing power. I'm sure there's other things that blind out there. With necrons being decent in assault and many of them being I2, maybe Blind just got much more useful.
Desubot wrote: Ended up attempting to fight 4 of these formations in a 1500 point game. (12 wraiths and 12 scarab bases IIRC)
Yeah only managed to kill off 3-4 total wraiths before being tabled
Hmm I can see the formation being taken by itself multiple times being a pain in the ass. But so thats what; 4 units of wraiths and 4 units of scarabs and 4 spyders. What did you take?
In the case id imagine playing to the mission being the most suitable tactic. I mean, this formation being spammed isn't that far off running unbound, as the spyder and scarabs aren't exactly a huge points tax, plus they actually provide decent advantages, the RP for the wraiths and a tarpit unit.
Bring the ork 5 flyer formation? twice? I mean if your simply looking for X beats Y, then there ya go?
I get that that's not what your looking for But you could for example attempt to tarpit? while collecting VP's from objectives?
Desubot wrote: Ended up attempting to fight 4 of these formations in a 1500 point game. (12 wraiths and 12 scarab bases IIRC)
Yeah only managed to kill off 3-4 total wraiths before being tabled
Hmm I can see the formation being taken by itself multiple times being a pain in the ass. But so thats what; 4 units of wraiths and 4 units of scarabs and 4 spyders. What did you take?
In the case id imagine playing to the mission being the most suitable tactic. I mean, this formation being spammed isn't that far off running unbound, as the spyder and scarabs aren't exactly a huge points tax, plus they actually provide decent advantages, the RP for the wraiths and a tarpit unit.
Bring the ork 5 flyer formation? twice? I mean if your simply looking for X beats Y, then there ya go?
I get that that's not what your looking for But you could for example attempt to tarpit? while collecting VP's from objectives?
Generic take call comers stuff. a Slannesh anti troop list. (FDP (doomrider YEAAHHHHHHHHH) S lord with jet pack, noise marines, two raptor squads, a vindicator, helldrake some obliterators.)
Me Vindicator did some work though. and the held rake killed of his scarabs that was holding objectives.
Another important thing is chucking something fearless can hold them off for a while. (2-3 turns if you are lucky and have invuls or enough bodies)
My take away from the game is unless you can get a clear shot off on them with ST10, dont bother and go for objectives and flyers mess em up if the are just spamming canopthic stuff.
In the end it was about to tie then it went to turn 7 and i got tabled. (he only lost 2 small immortal squads a cryptec some scarbs and only 1 full wraith squads so take what you will from that.
Alcibiades wrote: God, what a boring game taking the same formation 4 times would be.
I know I wouldn't waste a precious afternoon playing that more then once just to see what it's like. I don't even think it would be that hard to beat on missions, just insanely boring. IMHO anyway.
Alcibiades wrote: God, what a boring game taking the same formation 4 times would be.
I know I wouldn't waste a precious afternoon playing that more then once just to see what it's like. I don't even think it would be that hard to beat on missions, just insanely boring. IMHO anyway.
Yeh in general I cant see it being fun; competitve, more than likely, fun, doubtful.
hi,
I move 12"
I run
I roll some saves, which I make most of...
I move 12"
I charge
I kill you, either now or eventually
I move 12"
I charge
But yeh in general I think what you guys have said is clearly the way to deal with it; you need a unit with either bodies or saves that can endure a good beating. Other than that, play to mission and kill everything else.Im hoping with my orks I'll just tie em up, some 'ard boys might do well, 4+ so I get a save (AP5 I think? aren't they?), then tonnes of bodies to hold em there. Maybe even a multi-charge if I can, simply to lock 2 units. I'll probably die eventually, but not for a turn or 2.
with my DE, throw a speed bump, then use mobilty to stay away as long as possible, get fearless and FNP then get back in to tarpit further..... large unit of wyches? maybe they have a use after all
Alcibiades wrote: God, what a boring game taking the same formation 4 times would be.
I know I wouldn't waste a precious afternoon playing that more then once just to see what it's like. I don't even think it would be that hard to beat on missions, just insanely boring. IMHO anyway.
Yeh in general I cant see it being fun; competitve, more than likely, fun, doubtful.
hi,
I move 12"
I run
I roll some saves, which I make most of...
I move 12"
I charge
I kill you, either now or eventually
I move 12"
I charge
But yeh in general I think what you guys have said is clearly the way to deal with it; you need a unit with either bodies or saves that can endure a good beating. Other than that, play to mission and kill everything else.Im hoping with my orks I'll just tie em up, some 'ard boys might do well, 4+ so I get a save (AP5 I think? aren't they?), then tonnes of bodies to hold em there. Maybe even a multi-charge if I can, simply to lock 2 units. I'll probably die eventually, but not for a turn or 2.
with my DE, throw a speed bump, then use mobilty to stay away as long as possible, get fearless and FNP then get back in to tarpit further..... large unit of wyches? maybe they have a use after all
Regular boyz seem more point-efficient. Wraiths have rending. But are ap- otherwise iirc. So, you'll still get your mighty 6+ and won't care about rends that much drowning him in bodies. I'd not hope to kill much. You'll need 36 s3 attacks to do a single wound before RP. So, basically, you're not gona kill anything in mellee as they're 2-wound models and he'd spam wounds around as your regular guyz are hitting at different ini with pk ones. So, in the end he'll have lots of 1-wound wraiths ready for the next charge.
But let's count how long would you hold. Let's say you've got a 20 strong ork squad with a nob and let's assume you're a boss at rolling mob rule.
6 wraiths charge and inflict ~ 8-10 unsaved wounds before fnp. So, i guess we'll be able to hold for 3-4 assault phases if we don't fail mob rule. Well, that's not something too great as a unit of 20 shootaboyz with rokkits and pk/bp nob is just 1/4 cheaper than a unit of 6 wraiths. But at the same time it's not so bad as wraiths are not obsec and you'll probably be able to bauble wrap your guyz a bit. And playing defensively is more tactically advantageous in this case.
Wraiths do seem too tough for the points from a mathhammer perspective, yep. But let's see how it goes on actual gaming tables.
I've faced old wraiths enough to tell you that even a single unit that is left to do its thing will murderise its way through your backfield, mulching tanks and other ranged support units.
Four of them, that are nearly indestructible? I see no way to beat it without the cheesiest builds who rely on obvious balance flaws themselves.
Unless the formation contains some sort of backside we are not aware of, or does not give quite as much as we think-its broken. "kill the spider" is not a real option, as its a T6 W3 3+ 4+++ model on his own right, meaning he requires unrealistic firepower to begin with. anything said on the riptide/IK/NDK/WK being too durable-he makes it seem like a joke, considering he costs a fraction of them, and requires almost as much firepower. (50 points IIRC)
BoomWolf wrote: I've faced old wraiths enough to tell you that even a single unit that is left to do its thing will murderise its way through your backfield, mulching tanks and other ranged support units.
Four of them, that are nearly indestructible? I see no way to beat it without the cheesiest builds who rely on obvious balance flaws themselves.
Unless the formation contains some sort of backside we are not aware of, or does not give quite as much as we think-its broken. "kill the spider" is not a real option, as its a T6 W3 3+ 4+++ model on his own right, meaning he requires unrealistic firepower to begin with. anything said on the riptide/IK/NDK/WK being too durable-he makes it seem like a joke, considering he costs a fraction of them, and requires almost as much firepower. (50 points IIRC)
There is no downside to this formation, unless you count having to take scarabs.
I did field this the other day, and a Scalpel squadron dealt with it pretty easy. Granted, DE specialize in killing Monstrous Creatures.
Scarabs are no downside, they are solid unit on their own.
Also, I do not consider army-specific counters to be a reasonable answer there. nobody except DE can field a reasonable number of poison shots to render the high T values irrelevant.
What I meant by something we don't know, is if now that we got the codex, there is some rule that wasn't in the spoilers that limits the power of the formation in some way, or restricts its availability.
BoomWolf wrote: Scarabs are no downside, they are solid unit on their own.
Also, I do not consider army-specific counters to be a reasonable answer there. nobody except DE can field a reasonable number of poison shots to render the high T values irrelevant.
What I meant by something we don't know, is if now that we got the codex, there is some rule that wasn't in the spoilers that limits the power of the formation in some way, or restricts its availability.
Regular boyz seem more point-efficient. Wraiths have rending. But are ap- otherwise iirc. So, you'll still get your mighty 6+ and won't care about rends that much drowning him in bodies. I'd not hope to kill much. You'll need 36 s3 attacks to do a single wound before RP. So, basically, you're not gona kill anything in mellee as they're 2-wound models and he'd spam wounds around as your regular guyz are hitting at different ini with pk ones. So, in the end he'll have lots of 1-wound wraiths ready for the next charge.
But let's count how long would you hold. Let's say you've got a 20 strong ork squad with a nob and let's assume you're a boss at rolling mob rule.
6 wraiths charge and inflict ~ 8-10 unsaved wounds before fnp. So, i guess we'll be able to hold for 3-4 assault phases if we don't fail mob rule. Well, that's not something too great as a unit of 20 shootaboyz with rokkits and pk/bp nob is just 1/4 cheaper than a unit of 6 wraiths. But at the same time it's not so bad as wraiths are not obsec and you'll probably be able to bauble wrap your guyz a bit. And playing defensively is more tactically advantageous in this case.
Wraiths do seem too tough for the points from a mathhammer perspective, yep. But let's see how it goes on actual gaming tables.
Thanks for the quick math out, yeh no point in 'ard boyz really. I think, potentially the way forward would be (with orks - i know this is army specific, but its my army) attempt to get a charge off with your boyz, yeh you wont kill much and the points cost ain't much different; a 1/4 you say, but tbh i'd happily leave my boyz just tarpitting wraiths, as I have not much else to deal with it, plus its probably a pivotal part of his list, so a 2-4 turn tie up with a unit im bringing anyway (troops tax).
Secondly, as you said, I wont do much, and he'll slowly eat through me boyz, but all it requires is bad rolling on his part and 1 wraith down and his unit is at 3/4 potential or 5/6 (dependant on size), whereas bad rolling for me isn't really a thing, as I only have a 1/6 save, so there gona die anyway.
I forsee complaining about Wraiths for a month or two and then it dies down. How often do you see people complaining about TWC? I mean, it's strong, and people appreciate that, but they kind of accept it and learn to play with/around it.
Thanks for the quick math out, yeh no point in 'ard boyz really. I think, potentially the way forward would be (with orks - i know this is army specific, but its my army) attempt to get a charge off with your boyz, yeh you wont kill much and the points cost ain't much different
It's often a good idea not to charge when you want to tarpit and expect the combat to last x2 phases (0, 2, 4, etc) so that the opponent won't break free from you on your own turn before you have a chance to react. I often prefer to bauble wrap and just hold the ground in this case. This way you're not giving the enemy a free round of crumping. Like in case with imperial knights. That's situational, though. And wraiths can move through models bu you've got numbers to disallow this movement most of the time.
Thanks for the quick math out, yeh no point in 'ard boyz really. I think, potentially the way forward would be (with orks - i know this is army specific, but its my army) attempt to get a charge off with your boyz, yeh you wont kill much and the points cost ain't much different
It's often a good idea not to charge when you want to tarpit and expect the combat to last x2 phases (0, 2, 4, etc) so that the opponent won't break free from you on your own turn before you have a chance to react. I often prefer to bauble wrap and just hold the ground in this case. This way you're not giving the enemy a free round of crumping. Like in case with imperial knights. That's situational, though. And wraiths can move through models bu you've got numbers to disallow this movement most of the time.
mmm that was my concern, the ability to move through it. But i suppose with a cresent shaped bubble wrap I can effectively like 'herd' them, the choice being charge the boyz or move away from their intended target. ahahaha i have a great image of a unit of boyz with choppas just herding wraihs round the battlefield waving pitchforks and shouting jeers. Plus I suppose with shoota boys I could simply shoot them while bubble wrapped and if they charge il get overwatch and if not il then just chase em and shoot them some more Sounds hilarious.
As Eldar squads of scatter laser war walkers with guide and wave serpents would do the trick, but you would need to know that your opponent is running a list that has tons of wraiths.
The best way to deal with them is going to be mass s6/s7 firepower which not many armies bar eldar can do.
Pdogg614 wrote: As Eldar squads of scatter laser war walkers with guide and wave serpents would do the trick, but you would need to know that your opponent is running a list that has tons of wraiths.
The best way to deal with them is going to be mass s6/s7 firepower which not many armies bar eldar can do.
Even then, they're not easy to kill. Doing the Math, I just calculated five serpents firing at a unit of Wraiths with RP, and assuming they got the full shots from every Shield and every scatter laser hit, which would never happen, they are only dealing 5 unsaved wounds.
Or you could just through a wraith knight at them. 240 points and lots of s10 and t8 wounds should do the job. Wraiths will rely on rends, but lack the volume of attacks to kill him quickly. Especially if the wraiths have taken a couple casualties prior to assault.
Eldar have no real problem.
DE have no issue
Orks/IG have the bodies
Nids won't care much
Marines can take an IK or use combat squading MSU or both
Tau can use a Nova charges riptide to tarpit after wittling them down.
Every army has an answer really. Wraiths are still solid, but taking too many will just make a necron list vulnerable to bad match ups.
I don't think people realize how much wraiths leaned on that destroyer lord and his MSS yet. MSS were literally the answer to anything like a wraith knight or greater demon etc.
Pdogg614 wrote: As Eldar squads of scatter laser war walkers with guide and wave serpents would do the trick, but you would need to know that your opponent is running a list that has tons of wraiths.
The best way to deal with them is going to be mass s6/s7 firepower which not many armies bar eldar can do.
Even then, they're not easy to kill. Doing the Math, I just calculated five serpents firing at a unit of Wraiths with RP, and assuming they got the full shots from every Shield and every scatter laser hit, which would never happen, they are only dealing 5 unsaved wounds.
the problem isn't toughness, yes toughness is gona make it hard to get wounds on them, but there are plenty of T5 things out there. The issue is the 4+ FNP and 3+/3++. Those two combined simply give you a very good save against anything. even ID is out of the question with them still getting a 5+. Then the issue migrates to their 12" move and ability to pass through units. Its not like they are durable and are sat backfield scared of combat, they actively seek it. They will endure some big punishment and then will get into combat, where your ability to deal with them goes from army wide to that specific unit. Combined with i5 means they will likely go first and neuter your ability to do return damage. T5 is a problem, but the problem is by passing the saves. You can't bypass the initial save and simply force a FNP check easily. as if you could they only have a 4+ FNP, which while good isn't unbeatable, its a 50/50. they will fail 1/3 armour saves, whatever it is, but then they still have the FNP which reduces that to 1/6 wounds failed. Thats where they really get you, as there is nothing that reduces that bar STR10 and D. Forcing volume of saves yeh, but thats still 1/6. so thats 12 saves to kill a wraith whatever the source; be that bolter fire, autocannons, scatterlasers, plasmablasts grotblastas, powerfists, basic attacks, whatever it is, unless its STR10 or D its a 1/6 chance to fail a save.
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Red Corsair wrote: Or you could just through a wraith knight at them. 240 points and lots of s10 and t8 wounds should do the job. Wraiths will rely on rends, but lack the volume of attacks to kill him quickly. Especially if the wraiths have taken a couple casualties prior to assault.
Eldar have no real problem.
DE have no issue
Orks/IG have the bodies
Nids won't care much
Marines can take an IK or use combat squading MSU or both
Tau can use a Nova charges riptide to tarpit after wittling them down.
Every army has an answer really. Wraiths are still solid, but taking too many will just make a necron list vulnerable to bad match ups.
I don't think people realize how much wraiths leaned on that destroyer lord and his MSS yet. MSS were literally the answer to anything like a wraith knight or greater demon etc.
I think this is also true, I dont think wraith-spam will be a problem, wraiths will be a pain, but I doubt the problem will be the spamming. It will be the combination into other necron lists where they are truely powerful.
Im glad i dont play competitive 40k, my meta necron player only owns 3 and max he would run would be 6 if he gets another box.
They are managable in smaller doses but if spammed to the degree of running 3+ formations of them than you need to really look at the people your playing with, there is alot of cheesy lists in 40k(less now) they are just another one added to the pile. It does not make for a fun game for either player if one side dominates. I know i play eldar and have dominated one too many games and it almost caused my playgroup to not want to even bother playing 40k as much cause its not fun.
Pdogg614 wrote: Im glad i dont play competitive 40k, my meta necron player only owns 3 and max he would run would be 6 if he gets another box.
They are managable in smaller doses but if spammed to the degree of running 3+ formations of them than you need to really look at the people your playing with, there is alot of cheesy lists in 40k(less now) they are just another one added to the pile. It does not make for a fun game for either player if one side dominates. I know i play eldar and have dominated one too many games and it almost caused my playgroup to not want to even bother playing 40k as much cause its not fun.
Hey guys, can we avoid whine posts like this in the tactical thread please? I don't want this turning into a another "Wraiths are OP whinefest" So far a lot of good suggestions have been brought up the last few pages, and It would better for thread as a whole if we can keep on the tactical track, rather than the complaining/whining track.
Dakkafang Dreggrim wrote: I play orks, I just down them with weight of attacks and shots like I did before.
T5 will be annoying but, not broken OP.
You realize that a unit of 6 (IIRC is the right size) will take over 100 st4 hits just to kill. 216 hits with fabricator formation thing. and this should fit at low points.
can you as an ork player bring the heat?
Im not saying its broken
but its definitely hitting over powered status.
Lootas work just fine though. Mass fire them into oblivion. Take shoota boyz for extra chance to kill them when they charge. Painboy for 4+ wound, Powerklaw for 2+ wound. Flamers for guaranteed wounds on their charge. Dakkajet, dakkaguns from bikes. None of them except lootas are a real dependable way of killing them though. But just taking those extra things into account might make the difference. Or any Str 10 attack might luckily decide their fate.
Requizen wrote: I forsee complaining about Wraiths for a month or two and then it dies down. How often do you see people complaining about TWC? I mean, it's strong, and people appreciate that, but they kind of accept it and learn to play with/around it.
TWC cost a feth ton, and you generally only see one unit of them and wraiths can take FNP+ against light AND ID weapons.
Sure a single wraith squad will probably hit the same amount of hate. but IF multiple starts become a thing then there will probably a lot more complaints.
There is only 1 major downside (if it is anything of a down side) is that the spider is only a 6" movement it means that possibly for a turn or two the Wraiths or scarabs wont have a RP if they charge out and the spider rolls low run.
Dakkafang Dreggrim wrote: I play orks, I just down them with weight of attacks and shots like I did before.
T5 will be annoying but, not broken OP.
You realize that a unit of 6 (IIRC is the right size) will take over 100 st4 hits just to kill. 216 hits with fabricator formation thing. and this should fit at low points.
can you as an ork player bring the heat?
Im not saying its broken
but its definitely hitting over powered status.
Lootas work just fine though. Mass fire them into oblivion. Take shoota boyz for extra chance to kill them when they charge. Painboy for 4+ wound, Powerklaw for 2+ wound. Flamers for guaranteed wounds on their charge. Dakkajet, dakkaguns from bikes. None of them except lootas are a real dependable way of killing them though. But just taking those extra things into account might make the difference. Or any Str 10 attack might luckily decide their fate.
216 "hits" over the course of 1 game? ok when did lootas get that strong?
Edit: Blerp wait a sec they are st7 right? then yeah maybe. over 1 whole game if they live.
But yeah FNP is also very good against them for T4+ units.
I think lootas can do it, but you'd have to bring several full squads of them, and get lucky with the D3 on the first few turns, because we both know that lootas are not going to last that long.
wasnt complaining, just saying i dont deal with spam or tournament lists nor like to, thats probably a rant for another thread though.
I think best will be guided warwalkers for points per kill in the eldar army and have the mobility to back away while firing. I did the math and without RP the serpents will only kill 1 each per turn. The war walkers guided will kill about 2.5 per turn twin linked without RP.
Best advice is to try and widdle them down 1 squad at a time to leave them with less "mobility". Less squads of them the less threat area he can cover.
As for dealing with with the canoptek swarm, I'll second the idea of using a vindicare assassin to take out the spyder and then assist in clearing the Wraiths.
FYI, if you run the formation on its own the RP roll is only a 5+. To get the 4+ you have to be part of a Decurion Detachment to gain its command benefit. Which makes spamming much harder after you pay the RL tax.
PanzerLeader wrote: FYI, if you run the formation on its own the RP roll is only a 5+. To get the 4+ you have to be part of a Decurion Detachment to gain its command benefit. Which makes spamming much harder after you pay the RL tax.
If by "Tax" you mean 154 points... which is the extra immortal and tomb blade units combined cost, after accounting for requred HQ and 2 troops....
PanzerLeader wrote: FYI, if you run the formation on its own the RP roll is only a 5+. To get the 4+ you have to be part of a Decurion Detachment to gain its command benefit. Which makes spamming much harder after you pay the RL tax.
If by "Tax" you mean 154 points... which is the extra immortal and tomb blade units combined cost, after accounting for requred HQ and 2 troops....
The minimum cost of a RL with 0 upgrades is 479 points. Decently kitted with transports it'll weigh in at 800-900 points. Even if you wanted max Canoptek Harvests, at 230 points each you can get a total of 5 minimum sized formations into an 1850 list if you buy no upgrades on your RL. That'll give you 15 wraiths, 15 scarabs, 5 spiders, 1 overlord, 20 warriors, 5 immortals and 3 tomb blades with ~220 points to go. It's just not a very good army at that point. You lose all the things that made the old wraithwing great, like ranged threats from ABs and Night Scythes plus more wraiths.
PanzerLeader wrote: FYI, if you run the formation on its own the RP roll is only a 5+. To get the 4+ you have to be part of a Decurion Detachment to gain its command benefit. Which makes spamming much harder after you pay the RL tax.
If by "Tax" you mean 154 points... which is the extra immortal and tomb blade units combined cost, after accounting for requred HQ and 2 troops....
The minimum cost of a RL with 0 upgrades is 479 points. Decently kitted with transports it'll weigh in at 800-900 points. Even if you wanted max Canoptek Harvests, at 230 points each you can get a total of 5 minimum sized formations into an 1850 list if you buy no upgrades on your RL. That'll give you 15 wraiths, 15 scarabs, 5 spiders, 1 overlord, 20 warriors, 5 immortals and 3 tomb blades with ~220 points to go. It's just not a very good army at that point. You lose all the things that made the old wraithwing great, like ranged threats from ABs and Night Scythes plus more wraiths.
You are absolutely correct on all your points there.
However, my point was you are not paying much of a tax for the Reclmamation legion, as you are required to have a HQ and 2 troops for any CAD. So you are only paying a real tax of 154 points.
I don't think massed Wraiths will be the way to go with the Decurion myself. I feel you want to maximize the the use of the other formations.
If you want to spam pure Wraiths, you are better off taking the CAD route, since you will be able to cut more points by loosing the Spyder and Scarabs.
PanzerLeader wrote: FYI, if you run the formation on its own the RP roll is only a 5+. To get the 4+ you have to be part of a Decurion Detachment to gain its command benefit. Which makes spamming much harder after you pay the RL tax.
If by "Tax" you mean 154 points... which is the extra immortal and tomb blade units combined cost, after accounting for requred HQ and 2 troops....
The minimum cost of a RL with 0 upgrades is 479 points. Decently kitted with transports it'll weigh in at 800-900 points. Even if you wanted max Canoptek Harvests, at 230 points each you can get a total of 5 minimum sized formations into an 1850 list if you buy no upgrades on your RL. That'll give you 15 wraiths, 15 scarabs, 5 spiders, 1 overlord, 20 warriors, 5 immortals and 3 tomb blades with ~220 points to go. It's just not a very good army at that point. You lose all the things that made the old wraithwing great, like ranged threats from ABs and Night Scythes plus more wraiths.
You are absolutely correct on all your points there.
However, my point was you are not paying much of a tax for the Reclmamation legion, as you are required to have a HQ and 2 troops for any CAD. So you are only paying a real tax of 154 points.
I don't think massed Wraiths will be the way to go with the Decurion myself. I feel you want to maximize the the use of the other formations.
If you want to spam pure Wraiths, you are better off taking the CAD route, since you will be able to cut more points by loosing the Spyder and Scarabs.
Indeed, if I'd spam Wraiths like in my 6th ed Necron list, then I'd run them outside the RL.
However I think Sasori is right about the small tax the RL provides.
I think inside the RL the number of Wraiths can be kept smaller than outside thanks to the improved RP.
Tiger9gamer wrote: isn't there an FOC in the latest campaign that allows units to re-roll 1's on reanimation rolls? cause if so that would be nasty with Wraiths.
well, time to hope that the necron players are sportsmen and don't bring too many.
Luckly, if you are in that FOC-you are not in the decurion or even the small formation-so no RP wraiths.
Should have named this formation the Paradox Formation, or Shield/sword formation.
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