According to a poster who has seen the german WD leaks (I haven't) the Frost Axe is Ap2 S+3 and when you charge (you have counter-attack with Wulfen, too, so always) it let's you attack with normal Initiative in the first round of combat and afterwards it gets unwieldy.
Edit: It is a two-handed weapon
Edit: I am not sure about the restrictions, it could be that anyone in the unit can take the weapons listed including the Leader. It depends on how you read the leader upgrade
I'll say this for some odd reason I'm hoping with the return of the Wulfen that there will be a return of Grey Slayers and Storm Claws.
The main problem I have with them coming back is what will differentiate them from the normal counterparts like the Grey Hunters and Sky/Swift Claws. I doubt they're going to be WS/BS 5 with A 3 and LD 10 especially since they took WS 5 from the Wulfen. If they do come back I'm hoping they bring a whole slew of frost/helfrost guns in their wake especially for bikes. Though they'd probably have no dispersed option and significantly weaker than the cannons.
Spiritfox that is my desire as well. Honestly I dont care much about the wulfen, I would rather have improved Grey Slayers and Bikes. I am still holding out hope that there is a different psychic list for Rune Priests as well, since the SW list is garbage.
As some one who only plays orks, I find it funny that these guys are viewed as "ok". From what we know so far. I'd trade rhe see e guys for my nobs any day lol.
I guess other SW/Marine stuff is so good a "ok" unit is amazing in another army ?
Dakkafang Dreggrim wrote: As some one who only plays orks, I find it funny that these guys are viewed as "ok". From what we know so far. I'd trade rhe see e guys for my nobs any day lol.
I guess other SW/Marine stuff is so good a "ok" unit is amazing in another army ?
Yeah, it's kind of depressing. Charging after a run move is something I wish my Tyranids could do again.
Honestly I'd pay extra if we got our own bike sprues with helfrost guns on instead of bolters. Hell if they are only assualt 1 str 6 ap 3 with an 18in range twin linked. That alone I would say would be worth +10pts per bike. That and give WG bikes something to do besides be weaker TWC.
But lets be honest greater access to helfrost is probably only going to our long fangs. Even if we really don't need them to get a grav variant that would be better given to our other units.
As for psychic powers we're probably not going to see much except maybe a rehashed Biomancy table at best
Dakkafang Dreggrim wrote: As some one who only plays orks, I find it funny that these guys are viewed as "ok". From what we know so far. I'd trade rhe see e guys for my nobs any day lol.
I guess other SW/Marine stuff is so good a "ok" unit is amazing in another army ?
Yeah, it's kind of depressing. Charging after a run move is something I wish my Tyranids could do again.
Nice part of GW sculptors having no restraint at all anymore is that kits are a rich source of neat bitz now.
Could probably make a 2-3 times the number of decent wolf dudes from each of those guys.
Dakkafang Dreggrim wrote: As some one who only plays orks, I find it funny that these guys are viewed as "ok". From what we know so far. I'd trade rhe see e guys for my nobs any day lol.
I guess other SW/Marine stuff is so good a "ok" unit is amazing in another army ?
Yeah, it's kind of depressing. Charging after a run move is something I wish my Tyranids could do again.
Only badguys follow the rules.
How about charging after deep striking ? Marines cant do that yet. ....oh wait.
Ya, I can't for the life of me see how these guys would be considered bad.
Good stat line and good special rules. Seems like a win.
Dakkafang Dreggrim wrote: As some one who only plays orks, I find it funny that these guys are viewed as "ok". From what we know so far. I'd trade rhe see e guys for my nobs any day lol.
I guess other SW/Marine stuff is so good a "ok" unit is amazing in another army ?
Yeah, it's kind of depressing. Charging after a run move is something I wish my Tyranids could do again.
Only badguys follow the rules.
How about charging after deep striking ? Marines cant do that yet. ....oh wait.
Ya, I can't for the life of me see how these guys would be considered bad.
Good stat line and good special rules. Seems like a win.
Honestly I see them being a really fun unit. I dont think they should be 30pts a pop base, but I can understand it. They are without a doubt a unit that can kill far more than their points, but the almost non existent shooting will make it hard if not unlikely that people will field them in any serious games.
I thought 30 points a pop was cheap, figuring a nob with a 4+ is just 8 points less and that's with worse stats, not nearly as good special rules and no weapon upgrades.
Ork nobs aren't a unit in the space wolf codex but TWC are. You should compare them to units the SW players will probably take imo. Also, Ork nobs have always been pretty bad so that's not a very great comparison and were only playable because of doks and cheap invuls (not due to their stats and other wargear).
Dakkafang Dreggrim wrote: I thought 30 points a pop was cheap, figuring a nob with a 4+ is just 8 points less and that's with worse stats, not nearly as good special rules and no weapon upgrades.
At least you get Nobz... I get to pay 30pts for a basic Marine statline, a pair of Lightning claws, the Daemon special rule and Jump Infantry. But Marks cost extra because, "feth Chaos"
And to get any form of unit support & synergy for them, I just need to forget they're a CSM unit and put Warptalons into a Daemon army instead!
At least you get Nobz... I get to pay 30pts for a basic Marine statline, a pair of Lightning claws, the Daemon special rule and Jump Infantry. But Marks cost extra because, "feth Chaos"
And to get any form of unit support & synergy for them, I just need to forget they're a CSM unit and put Warptalons into a Daemon army instead!
Compared to SW jump units, that is an insane deal. There is a reason you never see jump wolves on the table. Come to think of it, I rarely see any jump marines anymore, bikes just seem to do it better.
Warhams-77 wrote: This 'AoS-ifying 40k' bollocks again... guys, it gets annoying
You can call people's genuine concern for something they enjoy "bollocks" when the company making the game didn't do exactly what they're concerned about less than a year ago to another of their IPs.
Warhams-77 wrote: This 'AoS-ifying 40k' bollocks again... guys, it gets annoying
You can call people's genuine concern for something they enjoy "bollocks" when the company making the game didn't do exactly what they're concerned about less than a year ago to another of their IPs.
Except it's a poor parallel -- they had to do something with WHFB; the sales weren't happening. Of course, people can debate whether what they did was good or bad, and history will be the ultimate judge of it. But this is simply not the case for 40k today. Sure, if 40k sales crash through the floor one day, GW will do something dramatic to reboot the game.
I hold the WD in hands, I dont know if someone mentioned the daemon rules that are included in this campaign set.
So they will get 10 new formations, 6 Datasheets for units, Warlord traits, Psychic powers(along new datacards) and relics
To see in the white dwarf are 2 Khorne Formations in a very little picture so I just can estimate what the rules are.
1. Murderhorde:
1 Skulltaker or Herald of Khorne
and 6? of the following - Bloodletters of khorne, Flesh hounds of khorne or Bloodcrushers
Formation have 2 special rules but its too small even under photo shop zoom. Something that effects in 12" range, I would guess no scatter via deep strike.
2. Gorethunder Battery
1 Herald and 3 Skull Cannons. Herald can be upgraded with skull throne or juggernaut.
3 Special rules. First is Warbringer of Khorne (no explaining text)
The Cannons get an upgraded weapon profile same as before but with an apocalyptic blast when they shoot together.
And a third rule that is absolutely not readable for me.
Hope this is new information for you guys
In the WD are the Weapon profiles and special wulfen rule table included are you guys interested in pictures of that?
Pics:
http://imgur.com/a/FXbTp
Wait Psychic Power cards?!! Wonder if there just reprints of the current rules or new powers? So, 2 formations are Khorne specific. Lets hope the other 3 gods get two each as well. Then the Decurion and the 4 DP formation.
Relics are okay but unless their giving out eternal warrior or 2+ armor saves pass. More Warlord traits? we already have access to 4 charts.
Wish listing I want either run + charge, or ignore terrain penalties when charging, or hit & run for my Slaaneshi Daemons. Rending on a 5+, assault after deep strike or outflank.... Something....anything really. Meh...I'll be mostly Khorne and Nurgle...
You're thinking of Radioactive Battle Wolf Force. The extreme sports team that fought alien invaders at night from their moon base using wolf powers contained within five amulets.
Was on after Gummi Bears.
I actually quite like the Wulfen rules, they seem decent enough when compared to Thunderwolf Cavalry. They should be seen as a complement to Thunderwolf Cavalry and not a replacement, having a unit that is still good but not quite as awesome as another isn't a bad thing - it presents more options to Space Wolf players. It appears to have been confirmed that they are Strength 5 which is very nice, especially as that Thunder Hammer and Storm Shield combo - also apparently confirmed earlier in the thread - is very cheap for them. It also seems like they buff the rest of a Space Wolf army by merely appearing on the field so that could be really powerful too. I look forward to seeing their full English rules before making a proper judgement though.
Something to note about this release, it seems like Chaos Daemons are getting the same treatment that Astra Militarum did in Mont'ka - meaning no new codex in the foreseeable future (i.e. a few months at least). I'm guessing the 10 formations, new data-cards, new unit entries (maybe adding the Exalted Flamer, the Gaunt Summoner of Tzeentch and different Bloodthirsters into the main codex?) and a possible super detachment will be their codex "update". Given the translation of the leaked Frost Axe rules, it appears that Space Wolves are actually getting some changes as well, but no mention as yet of formations, a super detachment, etc.
Okay, confirmed things:
1. Long Fangs were just a repack. No man-portable Helfrost Cannons. Much sadness. They probably could have recut the new Devastator kit to be SW, or made a new sprue that was just Helfrost Cannons, but elected not to.
2. Helfrost Pistol. Probably will be available to all, but more than likely only available in the Wulfen Pack. Very funny, since the Wulfen would be dumb as rocks to take one since they will hit NO ONE.
3. Rerelease of the Warriors of the Fang boxed set. Please, someone stop me from buying this. I already have two armies. I don't need another! (already have some SW too :()
EDIT: Noticed something weird about the Long Fangs box. They already had one that was in the new design scheme (the black box). But this box compared to the previous box is different. The old box had HB, PC, Sarge, ML, LC. The new one has LC, ML, Sarge, HB, PC. Why would they do that? Why not just continue making the original black box?
Ok, the dataslate states thet every model can have those AP2 Claws, axes and Hammers. Prety nice. With thouse axes you get 4 I5 S8 AP 2 attacks (5 for the leader). If they make it into CC it will be a real slaughter. And with thouse rules they will end there by T2. Still pricy though.
could you please also give us a clue of what says in the text above the table?
On the start of the players turn after reserve, every non vehicle space wolves unit inside 6" of at least one Wulfen unit is affected by the curse. In combat compare with the kill Chart, out of combat with the hunt Chart.
12" for Blood Claws, Sky Claws and Swift Claws, 3" for Long Fangs.
Roll 1 D6 for all affected units
units of Servitors, Wulfen, Fenrisian Wolves and Units that are inside a Transporter at the start of the Players turn are not affected at all.
The curse lasts until the start of your next players turn
new psychic powers and company specific formations, can this get any better? the 2 weeks wait will be unbearable
PS The mark of the wolfen table in the hunt , in the 6 result gives you 3 attacks when you charge instead of one but you dont get the buff if you have rage???
A rather cryptic hint. Maybe something undead for Aos. It was mentioned a while ago that this would be a short release. Still I would be surprised if it was only one week of space wolves.
By the way how much are they asking for the wulfen minis?
Or maybe it is ulrik. That would be cool.
lonewolf81 wrote: new psychic powers and company specific formations, can this get any better? the 2 weeks wait will be unbearable
PS The mark of the wolfen table in the hunt , in the 6 result gives you 3 attacks when you charge instead of one but you dont get the buff if you have rage???
"Der Slayer ist nahe, die Legionen des Todes und Golden Demon."
So I´ll try to translate it:
The Slayer is near, the Legions of death and golden demon
The Slayer is more than likely referring to Ulrik the Slayer. The Legions of Death and the golden demon could be just about anything. You know what, I am saying Blood Angels. The Golden Demon could be the Sanguinor or Dante. The Legions of death is the Death Company. Because why the hell not?
"Der Slayer ist nahe, die Legionen des Todes und Golden Demon."
So I´ll try to translate it:
The Slayer is near, the Legions of death and golden demon
The Slayer is more than likely referring to Ulrik the Slayer. The Legions of Death and the golden demon could be just about anything. You know what, I am saying Blood Angels. The Golden Demon could be the Sanguinor or Dante. The Legions of death is the Death Company. Because why the hell not?
Golden Demon is GW's annual painting competition at Games Day, or Warhammerfest or whatever it's called now.
"Der Slayer ist nahe, die Legionen des Todes und Golden Demon."
So I´ll try to translate it:
The Slayer is near, the Legions of death and golden demon
The Slayer is more than likely referring to Ulrik the Slayer. The Legions of Death and the golden demon could be just about anything. You know what, I am saying Blood Angels. The Golden Demon could be the Sanguinor or Dante. The Legions of death is the Death Company. Because why the hell not?
Golden Demon is GW's annual painting competition at Games Day, or Warhammerfest or whatever it's called now.
13th Company Slayers are members of a strange sub-cult of Space Wolf society. They seek death in combat in order to atone for getting lost in the Warp. Although they seek death, 13th Company are incapable of deliberately fighting to lose, and so always enter the fray to win hence GW awesome rules. Therefore Slayers spend as much time as possible improving their warrior skills by using whatever is on hand (rocks, paper, scissors).
13th Company Slayers deliberately seek uneven combat, for example by entering a McDonalds stronghold alone. Tau are considered the ideal opponents, as the 13th Company death is almost assured, which is why GW modeled them this way. Their way of life weeds out all but the toughest and most determined warriors, so that those 13th Company who survive for any period time are invariably exceptionally tough, violent, and look a lot like Hugh Jackman.
As a mark of their Oath, all 13th Company roid out of their power armor and take after the killer rabbit. Because that's what the Warp does.
Warboss85 wrote: Wolves will get special formations based on the great companies, warlord traits, psychic powers and relics.
Meanwhile, Chaos doesn't even get Legions, let along rules for individual company-sized formations.
And yet Loyalist players will argue that this is perfectly "fluffy" because "the Legions no longer exist 'cause yur Warbands - durp!"
Because apparently every single Iron Warrior for example has suddenly forgotten their siege skills, while Night Lords decided to just give up on their whole 'be very afraid!' murder skills, or Word Bearers suddenly calmed the feth down, etc... the second they all entered the Eye.
Warboss85 wrote: Wolves will get special formations based on the great companies, warlord traits, psychic powers and relics.
Meanwhile, Chaos doesn't even get Legions, let along rules for individual company-sized formations.
And yet Loyalist players will argue that this is perfectly "fluffy" because "the Legions no longer exist 'cause yur Warbands - durp!"
Because apparently every single Iron Warrior for example has suddenly forgotten their siege skills, while Night Lords decided to just give up on their whole 'be very afraid!' murder skills, or Word Bearers suddenly calmed the feth down, etc... the second they all entered the Eye.
Hey, now we do get Marks and snipe-able icons....that we have to pay for. So that's something, right? Those Wulfen buffs sure are nice, to bad a Dark Apostle or Possesed can't buff Chaos marines like that.
I have a problem with any members of the 13th company still being alive. They were meant to be a cautionary tale, about foolish bravado and dangers Chaos. So after decades of GW telling us the Warp and the Eye of Terror are lethal even to CSM. Where entire Imperial crusades including multiple space marine chapters and entire Ork Waaarghs have vanished with no survivors. It seems Chaos is no worse than walking through the bad part of town. I give the Legion of the Damned a pass as they didn't exactly survive the experience.
And someone asked for the price for the wulfen box. Its 42€
too much for those models
Yeah, I like all but he leader but I agree. When Wraithguard came out at €8 per model, that seemed about right for these quite big, 40mm elite models. Then €40 become the standard price for ANY unit sold in boxes of five models (Sternguard etc). Now it's €42 with some exceptions (the new AoS dwarfs in five-man boxes are €33).
And someone asked for the price for the wulfen box. Its 42€
too much for those models
Yeah, I like all but he leader but I agree. When Wraithguard came out at €8 per model, that seemed about right for these quite big, 40mm elite models. Then €40 become the standard price for ANY unit sold in boxes of five models (Sternguard etc). Now it's €42 with some exceptions (the new AoS dwarfs in five-man boxes are €33).
30-35 would be a price I would accept with enough bits in the box, but 42 and each weapon only once is too much.
I can get bits and models to convert 2 units for the same price
Warboss85 wrote: Wolves will get special formations based on the great companies, warlord traits, psychic powers and relics.
Meanwhile, Chaos doesn't even get Legions, let along rules for individual company-sized formations.
And yet Loyalist players will argue that this is perfectly "fluffy" because "the Legions no longer exist 'cause yur Warbands - durp!"
Because apparently every single Iron Warrior for example has suddenly forgotten their siege skills, while Night Lords decided to just give up on their whole 'be very afraid!' murder skills, or Word Bearers suddenly calmed the feth down, etc... the second they all entered the Eye.
Hey, now we do get Marks and snipe-able icons....that we have to pay for. So that's something, right? Those Wulfen buffs sure are nice, to bad a Dark Apostle or Possesed can't buff Chaos marines like that.
I have a problem with any members of the 13th company still being alive. They were meant to be a cautionary tale, about foolish bravado and dangers Chaos. So after decades of GW telling us the Warp and the Eye of Terror are lethal even to CSM. Where entire Imperial crusades including multiple space marine chapters and entire Ork Waaarghs have vanished with no survivors. It seems Chaos is no worse than walking through the bad part of town. I give the Legion of the Damned a pass as they didn't exactly survive the experience.
Thats not necessarily true. A whole craftworld was stuck in the Warp- Altansar (for eons it is claimed) before Maugan Ra guided them out. I think GW has certainly reinforced the claim that the warp is bad and very dangerous, but there are plenty of examples of race/people etc that have survived the warp (but not its taint).
Automatically Appended Next Post: So wulfen are even more expensive if you add in the grenade launcher- so the big question is, can they be equipped with a grenade launcher and a Thunderhammer/Storm Shield?
Automatically Appended Next Post: And Kodos- thanks so much for answering questions!
Warboss85 wrote: Wolves will get special formations based on the great companies, warlord traits, psychic powers and relics.
Meanwhile, Chaos doesn't even get Legions, let along rules for individual company-sized formations.
And yet Loyalist players will argue that this is perfectly "fluffy" because "the Legions no longer exist 'cause yur Warbands - durp!"
Because apparently every single Iron Warrior for example has suddenly forgotten their siege skills, while Night Lords decided to just give up on their whole 'be very afraid!' murder skills, or Word Bearers suddenly calmed the feth down, etc... the second they all entered the Eye.
Hey, now we do get Marks and snipe-able icons....that we have to pay for. So that's something, right? Those Wulfen buffs sure are nice, to bad a Dark Apostle or Possesed can't buff Chaos marines like that.
I have a problem with any members of the 13th company still being alive. They were meant to be a cautionary tale, about foolish bravado and dangers Chaos. So after decades of GW telling us the Warp and the Eye of Terror are lethal even to CSM. Where entire Imperial crusades including multiple space marine chapters and entire Ork Waaarghs have vanished with no survivors. It seems Chaos is no worse than walking through the bad part of town. I give the Legion of the Damned a pass as they didn't exactly survive the experience.
It just irks me how SW players are so immediately writing off this new unit within literally minutes of seeing some of their new rules...
Seriously, if you were to put 'Possessed Marines' in place of Wulfen and cost these guys at even 35pts base, you'd see mass celebration in the streets from Chaos players, and inevitably, hear nothing but mass whining from Loyalist players about these guys being busted as feth.
But with SW players, all we're hearing is, "waaaaah! they're not TWC extreme - these guys are useless!"
And they can tooled up with 3++ saves & S10 attacks, or else take a bunch of Helfrost effect attacks... Run (with Fleet no less!) and charge in the same turn (something Slaanesh players have been crying for literally for years now!)
These new Wulfen look like a freaking amazing force multiplier! And yet, all we hear is ***** that SW's still suck because they're just codex Thunderwolves.
Interesting. Much of what I hear in this thread is whining from Chaos players not getting new Chaos stuff in a thread about the February 2016 release for a completely separate army, the Space Wolves.
Anyone writing off the new wulfen is hilarious to me(assuming str 5 base). They single handedly solve many problems I have faced in my list which is things like stomps from knights and the like just removing entire units. Now I have the ability to fight them and A. kill them before they strike or B. kill them at the same time.
Also we need to see how they interact with other units/IC's as well before we reach any sound conclusions on the rules but right now they are looking pretty solid. Models need a head swap and the rest I think I could live with.....humm now how to make a deathwatch version....also assuming they are either on 40mm or 50mm bases at the price point IMO
The wulfen rules are pure amazing, they are a bit too OP even and I would feel bad for fielding them against many armies
but the models are horrible because they are so individualistic. You cant put up a unit of 10 wulfens because you will instantly see 5 clone pairs basically
aracersss wrote: you can always convert yours with existent bits and the new ones from this new wulfen box
im not competing with my wolves, just fun-playing. So it would seem even worse to convert something just to make use of these abusable rules. ...like, I dont really like the models, but the rules are so damn good so these guys here, they have the OP rules
Warboss85 wrote: Wolves will get special formations based on the great companies, warlord traits, psychic powers and relics.
Meanwhile, Chaos doesn't even get Legions, let along rules for individual company-sized formations.
And yet Loyalist players will argue that this is perfectly "fluffy" because "the Legions no longer exist 'cause yur Warbands - durp!"
Because apparently every single Iron Warrior for example has suddenly forgotten their siege skills, while Night Lords decided to just give up on their whole 'be very afraid!' murder skills, or Word Bearers suddenly calmed the feth down, etc... the second they all entered the Eye.
Hey, now we do get Marks and snipe-able icons....that we have to pay for. So that's something, right? Those Wulfen buffs sure are nice, to bad a Dark Apostle or Possesed can't buff Chaos marines like that.
I have a problem with any members of the 13th company still being alive. They were meant to be a cautionary tale, about foolish bravado and dangers Chaos. So after decades of GW telling us the Warp and the Eye of Terror are lethal even to CSM. Where entire Imperial crusades including multiple space marine chapters and entire Ork Waaarghs have vanished with no survivors. It seems Chaos is no worse than walking through the bad part of town. I give the Legion of the Damned a pass as they didn't exactly survive the experience.
It just irks me how SW players are so immediately writing off this new unit within literally minutes of seeing some of their new rules...
Seriously, if you were to put 'Possessed Marines' in place of Wulfen and cost these guys at even 35pts base, you'd see mass celebration in the streets from Chaos players, and inevitably, hear nothing but mass whining from Loyalist players about these guys being busted as feth.
But with SW players, all we're hearing is, "waaaaah! they're not TWC extreme - these guys are useless!"
And they can tooled up with 3++ saves & S10 attacks, or else take a bunch of Helfrost effect attacks... Run (with Fleet no less!) and charge in the same turn (something Slaanesh players have been crying for literally for years now!)
These new Wulfen look like a freaking amazing force multiplier! And yet, all we hear is ***** that SW's still suck because they're just codex Thunderwolves.
No, you're not listening to the whole conversation, just taking your frustration about a lack of chaos updates out on other people.
First, 40k is first and foremost a shooting game, which units are regarded as the worst- Surges, D-Scythe wraithguard, Scat bikes, Knights dropping dual pie plates, centurions with Grav- each model GW creates seems aimed at topping the next in its ability to remove models from the board.
SW have an extreme lack of shooting in this edition- if like me, you are just using codex SW (I dont buy into the allies and all that stuff). Under the current codex we can't shoot much off the board. I won't claim to be a 40k genius, even if such a thing existing- but look at the tournament lists, watch the battle reports on Youtube, any competitive SW list (and they aren't even very competitive since Tau and Eldar) is usually comprised of a bunch of thunderwolves (then add in other units to taste, or not and just have one giant deathstar with multiple ICs). So what was I hoping for? I was hoping for some opportunities to shoot a bit more, which SW used to be a mid- range fire fight army and is actually more in the fluff if you read any of the Black Library books. SW aren't World Eaters, heck even the Death Guard were feared more than SW in close combat.
So my opinion is, we already have a close combat unit in Thunderwolves, and although Wulfen might not be useless, they are less durable (much of their durability comes from adding in ICs to tank, which I assume you cant do with wulfen as they have a special movement rule, run and assault) and slower- cav is faster in general. Yes, when they get to close combat perhaps they are more killy, but I would even argue they aren't since you could assign ICs on Thunderwolves to the TW unit. Thunderwolves dont have much of a problem killing once they get in close combat, wulfen wont either, however, they are less likely than TW to get into combat and more expensive you have to purchase them grenade launchers to assault into cover. People are forgetting they aren't a throw away unit at 250 pts (if you are putting thunderhammers and storm shields on them- if you don't they 4+ save definitely isnt going to get them anywhere near combat)- so just because they kill a unit as they die doesnt mean they made their points back. To me, to use a Chaos example, that would be like having a winged daemon prince that cant shoot, then makes a new daemon prince that has to footslog and cant shoot either. Why do chaos players put wings on their daemon princes instead of footslogging, even if they had run and assault, I would think the winged version would stiill be preferred.
So, my irritation stems from the fact that it seems that GW hasn't solved SW problem, yes they are decent in assault, but they still don't have the ability to take out threats at range as well, Now, formation might mean some units are free (like SM transports) and we can put more than 1850 in points on the board and this would allow us to weather the storm from the shooty armies, like SM and DA, but I somehow don't think that is the route they are going. I am still holding out hope that they will flesh out the Storm Claws and Grey Slayers and other original 13th company units and I can just ignore the wulfen altogether. Id like to get my bikes on the board and have them be semi competitive. I would like to see some diversity in SW lists at tournaments rather than them just be all Thunderwolves or even a switch to just Wulfen. There are plenty of Tau and Eldar builds that are all competitive, why can't all the codexes have that option (not just SW)?
As far as the helfrost pistol- and I am genuinely asking opinions in a competitive sense, not basement games- I dont understand why anyone thinks they are good, or even helfrost guns. They are expensive, they aren't as good as taking out tanks as lascannons/melta weaponry, and they aren't as good at taking out infantry as plasma and they have a rule attached that is horrible mechanics as far as game design. As they are expensive weapons, if you don't kill a big target you are better off having taken just lascannons/melta/plasma and if you get lucky and kill a hive tyrant on turn 2 with one, the guy on the other side of the table is going to be irritated you got lucky. I mean lets face it, in most situations the helfrost is only going to be removing models on a 6- so you have 16% chance, so if the model with the gun survives 6 turns and can shoot 6 turns with it, and there are multiwound models on the table that make it worth taking the expensive gun you get your points back or the guy across from you gets upset- randomness is not a good rules mechanic. I hear folks putting these guns on par with Grav- how in the world does that happen. The best thing about grav is the weight of fire the guns bring, even on the move. Helfrost you have 1 shot or 1 small template which might nip 2 models. Now, even if you take 3 helfrost in a unit and they all wound the model, your opponent still only takes 1 test which most likely he fails only on a 6, so even investing in more of the weaponry really dont help, unless you are putting them on multiple units and that would be extremely expensive. I would definitely be interested in hearing tournament players thoughts on helfrost. Thanks
So, at least it looks like I only need WD to play with the new Wulfen models and the campaign book is needed only if I want to use the formations.
Anyone knows if GW will reprint Space Wolves Datatacards that are no longer available?
Ragnar69 wrote: GW never ever has reprinted anything except core rules and dexes.
You mean besides those nice little codex supplements for Flesh Tearers, White Scars, Raven Guard and Cadia (from the various recent campaign books) plus the Forge World campaign books and quite a few other things actually.
I wonder if they keep their Run -> Charge rules and reroll Charge if they have a character in the unit. It would be nice to get a Psyker in there with Invis/Endurance/Divination.
Hm, as far as I can judge those 2 pts grenade launchers will be a must. Of what I could read they allow the wulfen to fight at normal initiative in addition to shooting.
Ok so I wake up and all the weapons for Wulfen got posted plus a helfrost pistol.
From what I can see the Wulfen are going to attrack a metric gak ton of fire from everywhere. It's a nice and annoying thing since it will take some from TWC. Though the axe gives us a reason to use it because of 5 Str8 ap2 at init swings on the charge vs 6 str6 ap2 swings.
The death throws rule puts the fear of the Emperor in my knight list. All those thunderhammer hits even if I stop you to death. Scary. Will reserve final judging for English rules to see these buffs in action could be really nasty is used with the right units.
Warhams-77- when I click on your blog page and look through some of the white dwarf pictures I thought I saw the helfrost rule under the thunderhammer- I cant read the white dwarf so it is hard to tell- can you help on that?
sturguard wrote: Warhams-77- when I click on your blog page and look through some of the white dwarf pictures I thought I saw the helfrost rule under the thunderhammer- I cant read the white dwarf so it is hard to tell- can you help on that?
The Hammer with the Helfrost rule is called Sturmhammer wich is Stormhammer. A Thunderhammer is called Energiehammer in german.
Those are 2 different weapons
Opinions and all, but it is fair to say that GW has been very well regarded with most of their recent 40k releases. Sure, a few model outliers, but Ad-Mech & Skitarii, Harlies and BaC were extremely positive.
But continuing from the Space Wolf silliness that was Papa Grimnar, these Wulfen. Yikes. Not a fan at all. Really would've preferred an original update.
Don't mind the more action oriented posing, but still can't get over how ridiculous the leader looks, or the direction they went with them.
And Hamlet Wulfen confirmed. At least it is not a snowball.
lonewolf81 wrote: There is a page with codex space wolves (is it the old codex?) and another book legends of the dark millenium, what are those??? Anyone can help???
The one that looks like the codex is a poster with the codex artwork
the other one is a story
lonewolf81 wrote: There is a page with codex space wolves (is it the old codex?) and another book legends of the dark millenium, what are those??? Anyone can help???
It is the codex reprint with new data. Same as what Tau received. So if someone wants to continue to use their original codex, they would need the campaign book, otherwise they can just get a new codex.
Im somewhat torn on the models now that we have better pictures,
It will come down to what the sprues look like I think, if what we have seen is *the only poses possible* then I only like 2-3 out of 5. if these are just one of many options, ok thats great! lots of nice bits, the hammer/axe weilders look great IMO
With clear pics, I actually like the one with the claws and grenade launcher, and the THSS one. The other two are meh, and Crane Kick leader is a pass.
It would have been nice to have at least one set of legs with both feet on the ground. And instead of the crane kick, why not one running on four limbs?
lonewolf81 wrote: There is a page with codex space wolves (is it the old codex?) and another book legends of the dark millenium, what are those??? Anyone can help???
It is the codex reprint with new data. Same as what Tau received. So if someone wants to continue to use their original codex, they would need the campaign book, otherwise they can just get a new codex.
there is no picture of a codex reprint in the white dwarf (or at least not on the pictures we have yet)
Yeah I like the sculpts but some the poses... Yikes. The leader looks like he should be shouting "Rah-rah! Go Wulfen!" and the guy holding the skull is so hilariously skull monologue that I can't believe it wasn't on purpose. Hopefully weapon options will mitigate the poses somewhat.
Show two different builds for the Thunder-Hammer Wulfen... As such, I am hoping there might be more leg/arm options than we think.
Frankly, I am pretty set on buying a couple boxes, but i'd feel much better about them if I knew the kit will allow me to build 4x Frost-Axes, or 4x TH/SS, or at least 2x of each. We know the Leader has to have Frost-Claws, but I hope for a fairly modular other four, especially in a $50usd set.
lonewolf81 wrote: There is a page with codex space wolves (is it the old codex?) and another book legends of the dark millenium, what are those??? Anyone can help???
It is the codex reprint with new data. Same as what Tau received. So if someone wants to continue to use their original codex, they would need the campaign book, otherwise they can just get a new codex.
there is no picture of a codex reprint in the white dwarf (or at least not on the pictures we have yet)
who the he'll is going to pay $50 USD for a frickin' poster?! I did a little more reading into what I thought was the codex.
Frankly, I am pretty set on buying a couple boxes, but i'd feel much better about them if I knew the kit will allow me to build 4x Frost-Axes, or 4x TH/SS, or at least 2x of each. We know the Leader has to have Frost-Claws, but I hope for a fairly modular other four, especially in a $50usd set.
Yeah being able to make 2/3 of the weapons available to the Wulfen would be nice. I already see myself running 5 man squads with 2x th/ss and 3 Frost claws. If the box allows anyway if not ill sprinkle in an axe or two.
Frankly, I am pretty set on buying a couple boxes, but i'd feel much better about them if I knew the kit will allow me to build 4x Frost-Axes, or 4x TH/SS, or at least 2x of each. We know the Leader has to have Frost-Claws, but I hope for a fairly modular other four, especially in a $50usd set.
Good find thanks for pointing that out!
Yeah I mirror your hopes, as long as the sprues have enough bits and its fairly modular this will end up being a great kit.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Claimh_Solais wrote: New wulfen ...definitely top 3 worst GW40K minis ..really really bad
poor space wolves ....santa sledge .. ..murderfang, thunderwolves and now this goofy werewolves
Wait, you dont like thunderwolves? I mean I am all up for some more viking style and a bit less wolf style, but those are really good models!
Frankly, I am pretty set on buying a couple boxes, but i'd feel much better about them if I knew the kit will allow me to build 4x Frost-Axes, or 4x TH/SS, or at least 2x of each. We know the Leader has to have Frost-Claws, but I hope for a fairly modular other four, especially in a $50usd set.
Good find thanks for pointing that out!
Yeah I mirror your hopes, as long as the sprues have enough bits and its fairly modular this will end up being a great kit.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Claimh_Solais wrote: New wulfen ...definitely top 3 worst GW40K minis ..really really bad
poor space wolves ....santa sledge .. ..murderfang, thunderwolves and now this goofy werewolves
Wait, you dont like thunderwolves? I mean I am all up for some more viking style and a bit less wolf style, but those are really good models!
Judging by his avatar he has a different definition of goofy than some of us (SCNR)
There are 2 different designs of the hammer in the pics so I guess we'll see 2 of each weapon in the box
Personally think they look crap I don't know why just something about them. Maybe they will look better in person who knows.
They look like they are going to add up points wise very quick as well
Most of us think that 3/5 of the models are "ok" at best with leapy mcleaperson being an auto mod. As for cost yeah theyre ranging from 160-500pts for a minimal squad to th/ss barrage. There's no sane reason to tac the launchers on the maxed squad imo.
I honestly see them being a very effective unit, but keeping them alive is the tricky part. I personally would run them in 5 man squads with 2 th/ss, 2 fc's, and a fa. Ends up being 222 points or 228 depending on whether I give them the launchers for init. This gives them a strong offense and a decent defense to most infantry and MC's.
Their flaws have been said numerous times so I'll just throw out what my Meta brings for it. The obvious is Str 8+ weaponry in whatever form it takes, for me its mostly Basalisks, krak, lascannons, and meltas. These are things every damned unit in the game watches out for and either aims to wipe asap or avoid altogether and the Wulfen are fairly in the latter in long way games.
The fact of the matter is they're fugly with stupid strong rules and a mild question of how to get them into combat without dying to all the bullets that this edition brings.
I just realized the new wulfen remind me of a Totally Rockin Viking Metal band!
The axe guy playing guitar, , frosty claws on drums, Thunder Hammer on bass, skull holding dude doing guttoral background vocals, and Wereverine the lead singer, with tambourine!
Why is GW putting Ragnar Blackmane Great Company symbols in the new decals sheet? Every single SW decals sheet contain them. It's a waste of space. It would be better maybe put a complex symbol like the one of Harald Deathwolf great company instead that is also displayed in several picture in the codex
Nightlord1987 wrote: I just realized the new wulfen remind me of a Totally Rockin Viking Metal band!
The axe guy playing guitar, , frosty claws on drums, Thunder Hammer on bass, skull holding dude doing guttoral background vocals, and Wereverine the lead singer, with tambourine!
So fluff-wise is the 13th company JUST working with the Space Wolves chapter, or do they go fight wherever chaos is to be found?
I'm wondering because I'm curious about allies for my post-chapter civil war Blood Ravens. I want allies who 'watch' them just in case, and I'm wondering if the Wulfen would fit the bill or if I'd be better off snagging an inquisitor and some Stormtroopers.
These better only work for space wolves and if anything disallow allying with anyone else if you have them.
Sorry but there is no fething way any other chapter is tolerating these guys. Purge the heretic, death to the mutant ring a bell. Doesn't help that they come blazing in from the warp/eye of terror.
I can only hold my suspension of disbelief to a certain point and these guys would be slated for exterminatus no matter how noble their intentions by any Angel of Death.
The Space Wolves are in a race to find them before DAs and GKs in that campaign's fluff actually according to WD. Unknown as of yet is what the others will do if they get there first (based on WD info).
godswildcard wrote: So fluff-wise is the 13th company JUST working with the Space Wolves chapter, or do they go fight wherever chaos is to be found?
I'm wondering because I'm curious about allies for my post-chapter civil war Blood Ravens. I want allies who 'watch' them just in case, and I'm wondering if the Wulfen would fit the bill or if I'd be better off snagging an inquisitor and some Stormtroopers.
So you want that the last of the original Space Wolves Legion watch over the Thousand Son successor?
I just realized how Lias Issodon literally fixes anyone's issues. If you infiltrate a max squad, it absolutely has to be dealt with. Seeing as the average roll is 2, I usually take him with a squad of Devastator Centurions.
Assuming there's just a formation to use them, I will proxy models (simply because I don't like anything with fleshy bits).
godswildcard wrote: So fluff-wise is the 13th company JUST working with the Space Wolves chapter, or do they go fight wherever chaos is to be found?
I'm wondering because I'm curious about allies for my post-chapter civil war Blood Ravens. I want allies who 'watch' them just in case, and I'm wondering if the Wulfen would fit the bill or if I'd be better off snagging an inquisitor and some Stormtroopers.
So you want that the last of the original Space Wolves Legion watch over the Thousand Son successor?
fluff-wise this is nit the best idea.....
LoL. Hadn't thought of that. Valid point. Probably just go with the inquisitor then...
Apologies, I didn't mean to sound snarky at all. I was just saying there's a clear picture somewhere so that you could prove it to yourself, and couldn't link it for you.
Really though, if those models were the same strength as your average guardsmen I would probably quit this game. Haha.
AncientSkarbrand wrote: Apologies, I didn't mean to sound snarky at all. I was just saying there's a clear picture somewhere so that you could prove it to yourself, and couldn't link it for you.
Really though, if those models were the same strength as your average guardsmen I would probably quit this game. Haha.
No worries, I wasn't referring to you. I appreciate it though.
And I agree, but stranger rules have happened haha.
AncientSkarbrand wrote: Apologies, I didn't mean to sound snarky at all. I was just saying there's a clear picture somewhere so that you could prove it to yourself, and couldn't link it for you.
Really though, if those models were the same strength as your average guardsmen I would probably quit this game. Haha.
No worries, I wasn't referring to you. I appreciate it though.
And I agree, but stranger rules have happened haha.
It's also dakka where you should say with certainty things without checking for the facts first.
AncientSkarbrand wrote: Apologies, I didn't mean to sound snarky at all. I was just saying there's a clear picture somewhere so that you could prove it to yourself, and couldn't link it for you.
Really though, if those models were the same strength as your average guardsmen I would probably quit this game. Haha.
No worries, I wasn't referring to you. I appreciate it though.
And I agree, but stranger rules have happened haha.
It's also dakka where you should say with certainty things without checking for the facts first.
I looked on the first page for pics, it wasn't there. I'm not gonna dig through 20+ pages before I post my thoughts.
Judging by his avatar he has a different definition of goofy than some of us (SCNR)
There are 2 different designs of the hammer in the pics so I guess we'll see 2 of each weapon in the box
Hahaha well my avatar is supposed to be goofy and humoristic ..you are supost to think its weard and funny ..the models however are supposed to be grimdark ..and fearsome warriors
not like some monster in scooby doo
Coming out with a Wulfen kit/supplement when no one was asking for it is one thing... But giving them models this bad is just disgraceful.
For me it's the legs. How is it that their legs are that wolf-like and yet the rest of them just isn't? Usually the gripes I have with miniatures are more of a "not really a big deal" sort of thing, but I don't feel that way with these. I think these really are gaudy-looking pieces. If the rest of their bodies looked the way their feet do then maybe I wouldn't mind the fact that they're being led by a ballerina, but they actually look worse than the older models. Not to their corporate checklist, of course. Just to human beings. This is just like what happened to the Sector Imperialis board.
I need to see the sprues before I can say if they are any use. Above the waist they are serviceable, though 'Temba, his arms wide' will need his arms cut and reposed probably. If it will be possible to mate those torsos to normal space marine legs, then I can make it work. If not, the kit is useless.
Wolf Lord Balrog wrote: I need to see the sprues before I can say if they are any use. Above the waist they are serviceable, though 'Temba, his arms wide' will need his arms cut and reposed probably. If it will be possible to mate those torsos to normal space marine legs, then I can make it work. If not, the kit is useless.
That's what I'd be thinking if I played Space Wolves.
Claimh_Solais wrote: Well no ..Maries riding giant wolves ..not my cup of tea ..mabe Im to old
LOL. I gotta agree.
I actually love most of the modern space wolves models, but Thunderwolves are not my thing (neither is santa sleigh). It just doesn't fit my concept of a space viking. Maybe if it were a mechanical jetbike-wolf I'd love it more
Claimh_Solais wrote: Well no ..Maries riding giant wolves ..not my cup of tea ..mabe Im to old
LOL. I gotta agree.
I actually love most of the modern space wolves models, but Thunderwolves are not my thing (neither is santa sleigh). It just doesn't fit my concept of a space viking. Maybe if it were a mechanical jetbike-wolf I'd love it more
40k aesthetics in general have started to lean closer towards fantasy than sci-fi. You know how the Tau just recently got new Pathfinders and Fire Warriors? Notice how they're barefoot?
Say gents, could we get some of these new guys to pull Santa Logan's sleigh instead of the mush-doggies-mush? That would be so EPIC. So FORGE YOUR NARRATIVE. So 2016.
2016: the year when Star Wars and Space Wolves died... Jesus...
Claimh_Solais wrote: Well no ..Maries riding giant wolves ..not my cup of tea ..mabe Im to old
LOL. I gotta agree.
I actually love most of the modern space wolves models, but Thunderwolves are not my thing (neither is santa sleigh). It just doesn't fit my concept of a space viking. Maybe if it were a mechanical jetbike-wolf I'd love it more
40k aesthetics in general have started to lean closer towards fantasy than sci-fi. You know how the Tau just recently got new Pathfinders and Fire Warriors? Notice how they're barefoot?
aside from the fact that the Tau feet are exactly the same as they were before, yes, they are barefoot in spats...
gotta say, i really like the Thunderwolves...
they look pretty badass, and if Orks can ride boars, Puppies might as well have wolves
not a fan of the furry legs on the new Wulfen, though:(
Wolf Lord Balrog wrote: I need to see the sprues before I can say if they are any use. Above the waist they are serviceable, though 'Temba, his arms wide' will need his arms cut and reposed probably. If it will be possible to mate those torsos to normal space marine legs, then I can make it work. If not, the kit is useless.
It's....plastic. There is no sprue layout where parts would be useless for conversion work.
Olgerth Istaarn wrote: Say gents, could we get some of these new guys to pull Santa Logan's sleigh instead of the mush-doggies-mush? That would be so EPIC. So FORGE YOUR NARRATIVE. So 2016.
It honestly wouldn't surprise me at this point. I'm so used to adjusting to stupid ideas when it comes to 40k that I just feel like that's actually a good idea. Just have the sleigh pulled by Wulfen. Let Black Library write fiction about how noble and selfless they are for doing it.
Thunderwolves are without a shadow of a doubt one of the most ridiculous concepts GW has ever come up, with an Canis Wolfborn riding a Giant Wolf and wielding Wolf Claws is one of the most egregious examples of GW's over-the-top-ed-ness.
However, the actual Thunderwolf models are perhaps one of the best executions of a dumb idea I've ever seen. I really like those models.
Wyzilla wrote: I'm hearing a rumor on /tg/ and spacebattles.com that Bjorn is scheduled to get whacked in a White Dwarf leak. Is there anything backing this up?
They should have clarified if they mean hes getting whacked off or whacked, being the fell handed and all.
I hope there is a cool/fun Tzeentch formation, please give me an excuse to start Tzeentch army, I can only wait for a LoC and Rubrics for so long.
Wyzilla wrote: I'm hearing a rumor on /tg/ and spacebattles.com that Bjorn is scheduled to get whacked in a White Dwarf leak. Is there anything backing this up?
OOh please god no! (unless whacked means something else than removed, im not native english speaker)
Im almost done with my Bjorn based dreadnought/terminator-army :(. soo many hours....
Wyzilla wrote: I'm hearing a rumor on /tg/ and spacebattles.com that Bjorn is scheduled to get whacked in a White Dwarf leak. Is there anything backing this up?
OOh please god no! (unless whacked means something else than removed, im not native english speaker)
Im almost done with my Bjorn based dreadnought/terminator-army :(. soo many hours....
He probably means killed in the storyline, which wouldn't affect your army. They won't remove him from the codex.
Wyzilla wrote: I'm hearing a rumor on /tg/ and spacebattles.com that Bjorn is scheduled to get whacked in a White Dwarf leak. Is there anything backing this up?
In what issue of White Dwarf, Wyzilla? We currently have leaked pages from issue 106 (basically the entire magazine) which do not say so. Those people should show pics that do first and not make stuff up.
40k aesthetics in general have started to lean closer towards fantasy than sci-fi. You know how the Tau just recently got new Pathfinders and Fire Warriors? Notice how they're barefoot?
Warhammer 40K has never been sci-fi, it's always been fantasy in space, just like star wars. In fact I hate the tau for being too sci-fi for the setting. I'm glad they steer away from technology in 40K
2016: the year when Star Wars and Space Wolves died... Jesus...
The new Star Wars film was really good. If this movie killed the franchise for you, and not the prequels then I don't know what to say...
I really hope there is nothing to the "killing Bjorn" as it would just make an excuse to remove him from future Codices.
When I play 40k competitvely its one thing, but for fun I love fielding SW Dreads and having armies led by Bjorn, etc... Great model... and i'm still rocking the old 1lbs of metal Bjorn. :-p
lord_blackfang wrote: Oh, look. They have Original Fleet. The melee arms race is back on. This game is such a design clusterfeth.
The problem I have is that 'original Fleet' was originally intended as something to give to armies with Low Toughness and/or Armour that had to get into assault.
Fluffwise it made sense on Dark Eldar, Eldar and Tyranids - who really have (or had) paper thin transports and had to run into the maw of ignores armour that is the basic armament of anything in power armour in this game.
But they....they gave it to Wulfen. Who have a 4+ save (which is quite solid tbh - certainly better than the elite assault units of most Xenos armies), the option to buy the best Invuln save in the game (Storm Shields) and access to a flying transport. Oh, and Space Marine toughness. And FNP. And can strike back after they've died.
It's like...what? They have ALL those forms of 'evasion' to help them....and you give it to them? Not to...say...DE Wyches...or Tyranid Genestealers....really?
Are we sure those are conversions? The legs alone would be extremely competent as far as conversions go for GW. They definitely have full on chaos look to them.
BrotherGecko wrote: Are we sure those are conversions? The legs alone would be extremely competent as far as conversions go for GW. They definitely have full on chaos look to them.
Yes, they are Obliterator conversions, built using mainly the Centurion kit with added parts from the Hellbrute & various heavy weapons (again, mostly pooched from loyalist kits because Chaos don't get plastic heavy weapons), and copious amounts of green stuff.
Seriously, guys. GW, give Chaos Marines something good? This isn't 2001 anymore!
I guess we won't see a second Warzone:Fenris book as the limited version of Damocles includes all books of the series.
Do we already know if the reboxed SW set increased in price? Not that I need any, just curious if GW abolished their price hikes together with their new strategy.
lord_blackfang wrote: Oh, look. They have Original Fleet. The melee arms race is back on. This game is such a design clusterfeth.
The problem I have is that 'original Fleet' was originally intended as something to give to armies with Low Toughness and/or Armour that had to get into assault.
Fluffwise it made sense on Dark Eldar, Eldar and Tyranids - who really have (or had) paper thin transports and had to run into the maw of ignores armour that is the basic armament of anything in power armour in this game.
But they....they gave it to Wulfen. Who have a 4+ save (which is quite solid tbh - certainly better than the elite assault units of most Xenos armies), the option to buy the best Invuln save in the game (Storm Shields) and access to a flying transport. Oh, and Space Marine toughness. And FNP. And can strike back after they've died.
It's like...what? They have ALL those forms of 'evasion' to help them....and you give it to them? Not to...say...DE Wyches...or Tyranid Genestealers....really?
But there is a reason now they almost have to do it- the overabundance of excessive firepower. Eldar, Dark Eldar and Nids was fine having fleet- but now Eldar have str 6 guns on their bikes for 27 pts (less than a wulfen) and Tau have 4d6 missiles and broadsides, and weapons that fire at you even when you are out of line of sight, and Nids have Dakka Tyrants and marines and DA Centurions throwing out 20 shots a turn.. I'm not going to say the rules they gave the wulfen are excessive or not, honestly until they are used on the battlefield against the various armies we will find out. However, I will say this, SW as a solo codex have a real lack of firepower, yeah they can take some LF missiles but they dont have the ability to suppress any enemy, hence why all tournament armies are thunderwolves. This update doesnt seem to give any more firepower than the normal codex, so how else do you manage to add a unit that fails in its one job- to get to combat and from a sales perspective, if they dont somehow perform the job that Thunderwolves do, no one will take them (and I doubt the people buying the box simply to paint a single unit will pay for their production). GW wants to pretend it is just a model company, but if all the gamers walked away, the collectors wouldnt be enough to sustain their product lines.
So my point, if you go back 10 years to where most squads were either firing bolts or shuriken catapults or lascannons (heavy weapons of some sort) then yeah they wouldnt have needed all those extra rules to keep them alive (and they wouldnt need to be 30-50 pts a model).
I play 4th edition. The old fleet rules makes those units that have it actually feel fast like they should. These wolfin very much would fit well and work well in that old system.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Also, has anyone been able to translate that leak of the Chaos Grimoire?
Automatically Appended Next Post: Translated via Google Translate, and then polished up by yours truly:
"The Grimoire Collection is hell forged and the best way for collectors of Chaos Daemons to get all the demonic rules from Curse of the Wulfen, and it is limited to 500 copies for the most faithful servants of Chaos.
The Grimoire Collection is made for the most passionate collector of Chaos Daemons. In the luxurious slipcase you find a drawer with all sorts of goodies for the inclined demons fanatic, including the 32-page "Scions of the Warp" booklet with all demons Rules of War Zone Fenris: Curse of the Wulfen. They may include 10 new Chaos demons formations and six data sheets, new warlord traits for the Chaos Gods, hellforged artifacts and psychic powers.
The Grimoire Collection also contains six metal markers, 21 psychic power cards, 36 Tactical Mission Objective cards and an exclusive small-format edition of Codex: Chaos Daemons with a cover that is unique to this collection. All that is presents in glorious fashion, perfect for all those whose loyalty to the Dark Gods is absolute."
$156
So.... this looks like the first example of a codex getting a new collectors edition without actually getting a new codex. Well done, Games Workshop. Well done.
Quarterdime wrote: So.... this looks like the first example of a codex getting a new collectors edition without actually getting a new codex. Well done, Games Workshop. Well done.
Didn't they do that with CSM once already? I don't think this is the first time.
40k aesthetics in general have started to lean closer towards fantasy than sci-fi. You know how the Tau just recently got new Pathfinders and Fire Warriors? Notice how they're barefoot?
Warhammer 40K has never been sci-fi, it's always been fantasy in space, just like star wars. In fact I hate the tau for being too sci-fi for the setting. I'm glad they steer away from technology in 40K
To each their own, I guess. For me I wouldn't have had anything at all to do with 40k if it weren't for the sci-fi elements in it, like Tau and Tyranids. The fantasy aspects of 40k are what I hate the most about it, at least when it produces crap models...like these new wulfen. Or 90% of the CSM/Daemons miniature range.
To each their own, I guess. For me I wouldn't have had anything at all to do with 40k if it weren't for the sci-fi elements in it, like Tau and Tyranids. The fantasy aspects of 40k are what I hate the most about it, at least when it produces crap models...like these new wulfen. Or 90% of the CSM/Daemons miniature range.
...
....
....Crap models? Chaos Daemons? Alright, let me figure this out. I'll give you every model in the Slaanesh range, so let's be generous and say that's 1/5th of the range. Old 3rd edition models, let's say that brings the amount of gakky models in the range up to 40%. What other models in the range do you consider to be gakky and why?
All the current plastic Chaos Daemon models are lovely sculpts. Only the Daemon Prince, Bloodthirster and Skarbad are down a bit due to their more cartoony anatomy, and excessive detailing. While taste is subjective none of the Slannesh plastics are bad sculpt. Solid anatomy, excellent detail, and they are true to the original concept of Slaanesh. Its only the remaing greater daemons, finecast characters and older units that let the range down.
Sersi wrote: All the current plastic Chaos Daemon models are lovely sculpts. Only the Daemon Prince, Bloodthirster and Skarbad are down a bit due to their more cartoony anatomy, and excessive detailing. While taste is subjective none of the Slannesh plastics are bad sculpt. Solid anatomy, excellent detail, and they are true to the original concept of Slaanesh. Its only the remaing greater daemons, finecast characters and older units that let the range down.
The daemonettes have problems around the chest area... Their boobs look like traffic cones. And the only Slaanesh models that aren't tellingly old involve those daemonettes. Not to mention, the Seekers of Slaanesh are suffering from the problem where A: 3 of them are running while the other 2 are walking, and B: The daemonettes are upright the same way on all 5, making it look bad no matter how you look at it. The only Slaanesh miniatures that I'm currently giving a pass are those metal fiends, but now that one of the three is gone they're officially suffering from Duplicate Model Syndrome, and of course the Chariot of Slaanesh. I will say that the Daemonettes on that thing, from what I can tell, don't seem to have the traffic cone boobs. Which means I can no longer find anything glaringly wrong with it.
Off topic but, why would you expect daemons to be anatomically correct at all!?! They are pure energy given whatever form their deity decides would make them the most effective.
There is no reason for their build to even be bipedal, much less have the same bodily dimensions and articulation.
heads up: atia said ulrik has an alt un helmeted head. Also implied the wolf priest on the 2nd book in the curse of the wulfen limited edition was that of ulrik.
Lythrandire Biehrellian wrote: Off topic but, why would you expect daemons to be anatomically correct at all!?! They are pure energy given whatever form their deity decides would make them the most effective.
Because that bs makes for terrible models. Ugly, misshapen models should not be justified by "This is what they look like under the illusion" or "they're just pure energy so they can look however they like," because they're still ugly misshapen models. Models should only be unrealistic for the purpose of making them look better, not worse.
And that goes for these new Wulfen, too. If you're going to have the Wulfen be mutants, it should be because you want an excuse to make the models look better than if they were not mutants.
Quarterdime wrote: Excuses. That's all that is. Looking at them, all I see is what they were trying to do. Besides, they're at least supposed to be a LITTLE seductive...
Why, are we meant to be the ones under their spell? It was always ridiculous to have Daemonette models be walking boob-support machines(and anyone who even tries to pretend that the old models weren't sculpted to look like strippers with claws to appeal to hormonal teen boys is...well lets obey Rule 1 and just say "intensely mistaken"), they're supposed to be horrifying creatures from another dimension that use sorcerous mists and glamours to make you believe they're intensely beautiful until you're so far gone you no longer care. The current models best exemplify that concept because we are not the guardsman on the table who would see them as beautiful, we see what they truly are. As for this;
Lythrandire Biehrellian wrote: Off topic but, why would you expect daemons to be anatomically correct at all!?! They are pure energy given whatever form their deity decides would make them the most effective.
Because that bs makes for terrible models. Ugly, misshapen models should not be justified by "This is what they look like under the illusion" or "they're just pure energy so they can look however they like," because they're still ugly misshapen models. Models should only be unrealistic for the purpose of making them look better, not worse.
And that goes for these new Wulfen, too. If you're going to have the Wulfen be mutants, it should be because you want an excuse to make the models look better than if they were not mutants.
...utter sanctimony. Should they make Plaguebearers into nice fluffy little green bunnies, so they're not ugly any more? Or maybe they should just plaster some tits on them and make them skinny
The whole point of Chaos is supposed to be the appealing shell of allure and easy answers that conceals the twisted, horrifying, rotting centre; that's why Nurgle models are riddled with plagues and disfigurements, Khorne's are barely-coherent ragemonsters, and Tzeentch's are freakish lumps of mutated body horror - almost every model for those three gods represents the reality of Chaos rather than the illusion or first impression, Slaanesh was the exception to that rule and the new plastics, IMO, fixed them. They're ugly and misshapen because Chaos is ugly and misshapen, and models should be whatever they need to be for the purpose of making them match their concept.
The problem with the Wulfen isn't that they don't exemplify the concept, the problem is they're a parody of it.
Quarterdime wrote: ....Crap models? Chaos Daemons? Alright, let me figure this out. I'll give you every model in the Slaanesh range, so let's be generous and say that's 1/5th of the range. Old 3rd edition models, let's say that brings the amount of gakky models in the range up to 40%. What other models in the range do you consider to be gakky and why?
90% is probably an exaggeration. I'm just not a big fan of how a lot of the CSM and Daemons miniature range has turned out. I'm not sure if I can even articulate why, there's just a lot of models in there that are cartoonish or goofy/fugly-looking, or just not very good concepts in the first place (like the Khorne skull cannon). The plastic daemon prince in particular is just an appalling sculpt, one of the kits I hate the most, if that gives you any idea of what aspects of the daemon models I'm not fond of. I hate almost literally everything about the kit compared to the previous metal one, and I think even GW realized they put out a real stinker with that one since they're still offering the old princes, when typically they would just replace it with the new plastic.
But yeah, I have the same issues with the Slaanesh range that most others do, with the much-maligned static and boring poses. Tzeentch is mainly the one I have the most issues with, as I loved the old horrors that looked like they were constantly twisting and mutating and almost turning themselves inside out, and I hate the new kit...they kinda just look like pink goblins with huge mouths. So that means pretty much all the heralds and chariots are out, most of the characters, and I'm not a fan of the flamers either since likewise I think the previous metals were superior sculpts (and the fire looks really weird, especially on the burning chariot...doesn't really look like fire). The screamers are okay, and the Changling looks cool, but those are literally the only Tzeentch models I like.
So being more of a Tzeentch or Slaanesh guy, I'm not very impressed with what's being offered.
The wulfen are mainly just in goofy poses (sadly they don't look very posable either, but that's just guessing since we don't know what's in the kit yet), and they look really odd with mostly humanoid upper bodies and bestial legs. I'd have preferred if they still had armored Space Marine legs and just had beefy upper bodies with lots of hair and fangs, or if they were just full on werewolves and looked kinda like the Infinity antipodes. This weird in-between thing doesn't really work and makes for some silly models. Also, not a fan of the bladed weapons that look carved out of ice, would be better if they just had actual metal claws or something instead. Ice doesn't usually make for an effective weapon, either, but there's probably some garbage fluff for that I'm assuming.
Yeah, never been impressed by any of GW's dragons, either. Forge World made one or two good ones, I think.
aracersss wrote: curious how forging weapons made out of alien ice from a place virtually surrounded by it and all sort of frozen crap implies garbage fluff ... lol
Yeah you're right, what was I thinking? The space ice that never melts because reasons is actually brilliant.
of course I was sarcastic, why would I take serious weapons made of some unknown alloy found inside space ice that never melts ... 'cause that isn't possible. Gigantic wolf mounts and were wolves are more brilliant
Space Ice that never melts is awesome! It should freeze people you hit like Sub-Zero from Mortal Kombat and then the Wulfen can run up and combo them for like 1/3 of their life bar! That would be totally sweet! Man I love the newer fluff.
BrotherGecko wrote: Are we sure those are conversions? The legs alone would be extremely competent as far as conversions go for GW. They definitely have full on chaos look to them.
Yes, they are Obliterator conversions, built using mainly the Centurion kit with added parts from the Hellbrute & various heavy weapons (again, mostly pooched from loyalist kits because Chaos don't get plastic heavy weapons), and copious amounts of green stuff.
Seriously, guys. GW, give Chaos Marines something good? This isn't 2001 anymore!
It's a shame it couldn't be real, because the concept seems sound. Loyalists have centurions, while chaos responds by just piling up spare hellbrute parts around a marine in the rough shape of a centurion and gluing it all together with daemonic energies.
Plus, if they refluffed obliterators/mutilators as "Chaos not-centurions" they could ditch two unpopular, oft-maligned finecast kits for one good-looking plastic kit.
kodos wrote: And the original Frost blades were made with teeth from the Kraken and not of magic ice.
The Kraken thin came in 3rd edition I think. I liked Frost weapons more when there was only 1... Frostfang...
"Frostfang is a mighty weapon crafted centuries ago by Iron Priest Fergus Forgim, the famed master craftsman of the Space Wolves. Its chainsaw blade is fashioned from a rare metal whose secret died with the ancient Iron Priest."
I mentioned it earlier but I think since 2nd edition Space Wolves are one of the armies that has suffered from being fleshed out too much. Having Fenrisian Wolves in the army is as far as they should have gone. Thunderwolf Cavalry, Logan Claus, Murderfang and in general having the "Wolf factor" turned up to 11 ruined the appeal of them to me.
kodos wrote: And the original Frost blades were made with teeth from the Kraken and not of magic ice.
The Kraken thin came in 3rd edition I think. I liked Frost weapons more when there was only 1... Frostfang...
"Frostfang is a mighty weapon crafted centuries ago by Iron Priest Fergus Forgim, the famed master craftsman of the Space Wolves. Its chainsaw blade is fashioned from a rare metal whose secret died with the ancient Iron Priest."
I mentioned it earlier but I think since 2nd edition Space Wolves are one of the armies that has suffered from being fleshed out too much. Having Fenrisian Wolves in the army is as far as they should have gone. Thunderwolf Cavalry, Logan Claus, Murderfang and in general having the "Wolf factor" turned up to 11 ruined the appeal of them to me.
What, you have a hard time imagining giant kennels aboard Space Wolf Strike Cruisers and Battlebarges?
kodos wrote: And the original Frost blades were made with teeth from the Kraken and not of magic ice.
The Kraken thin came in 3rd edition I think. I liked Frost weapons more when there was only 1... Frostfang...
"Frostfang is a mighty weapon crafted centuries ago by Iron Priest Fergus Forgim, the famed master craftsman of the Space Wolves. Its chainsaw blade is fashioned from a rare metal whose secret died with the ancient Iron Priest."
I mentioned it earlier but I think since 2nd edition Space Wolves are one of the armies that has suffered from being fleshed out too much. Having Fenrisian Wolves in the army is as far as they should have gone. Thunderwolf Cavalry, Logan Claus, Murderfang and in general having the "Wolf factor" turned up to 11 ruined the appeal of them to me.
What, you have a hard time imagining giant kennels aboard Space Wolf Strike Cruisers and Battlebarges?
Having a Kennel aboard a flying Kennel seems redundant though.
Sersi wrote: All the current plastic Chaos Daemon models are lovely sculpts. Only the Daemon Prince, Bloodthirster and Skarbad are down a bit due to their more cartoony anatomy, and excessive detailing. While taste is subjective none of the Slannesh plastics are bad sculpt. Solid anatomy, excellent detail, and they are true to the original concept of Slaanesh. Its only the remaing greater daemons, finecast characters and older units that let the range down.
The daemonettes have problems around the chest area... Their boobs look like traffic cones. And the only Slaanesh models that aren't tellingly old involve those daemonettes. Not to mention, the Seekers of Slaanesh are suffering from the problem where A: 3 of them are running while the other 2 are walking, and B: The daemonettes are upright the same way on all 5, making it look bad no matter how you look at it. The only Slaanesh miniatures that I'm currently giving a pass are those metal fiends, but now that one of the three is gone they're officially suffering from Duplicate Model Syndrome, and of course the Chariot of Slaanesh. I will say that the Daemonettes on that thing, from what I can tell, don't seem to have the traffic cone boobs. Which means I can no longer find anything glaringly wrong with it.
The previous daemonettes had static poses too, and were metal with no hope of conversion. I look at it this way they were released in 2008 and design team hadn't really started to push what was possible in plastic. The Bloodletter and Plaguebearers both suffer from static standing poses. While the Pink Horrors from 2012, are far more dynamic. I'd say something like the DE Wyches running poses would've have been the sweet spot for Daemonettes as opposed to the Dark Elves Witch Elves which I thing take dynamic posing to far. I used to feel the same way about the Seeker being static. But honestly, their much better sculpts and the dinosaur/bird like anatomy the went with doesn't really allow a lot of dynamism anyway. The chariots I agreed did not need 3 near identical variations for the sake of variation.
Sersi wrote: All the current plastic Chaos Daemon models are lovely sculpts. Only the Daemon Prince, Bloodthirster and Skarbad are down a bit due to their more cartoony anatomy, and excessive detailing. While taste is subjective none of the Slannesh plastics are bad sculpt. Solid anatomy, excellent detail, and they are true to the original concept of Slaanesh. Its only the remaing greater daemons, finecast characters and older units that let the range down.
The daemonettes have problems around the chest area... Their boobs look like traffic cones. And the only Slaanesh models that aren't tellingly old involve those daemonettes. Not to mention, the Seekers of Slaanesh are suffering from the problem where A: 3 of them are running while the other 2 are walking, and B: The daemonettes are upright the same way on all 5, making it look bad no matter how you look at it. The only Slaanesh miniatures that I'm currently giving a pass are those metal fiends, but now that one of the three is gone they're officially suffering from Duplicate Model Syndrome, and of course the Chariot of Slaanesh. I will say that the Daemonettes on that thing, from what I can tell, don't seem to have the traffic cone boobs. Which means I can no longer find anything glaringly wrong with it.
The previous daemonettes had static poses too, and were metal with no hope of conversion. I look at it this way they were released in 2008 and design team hadn't really started to push what was possible in plastic. The Bloodletter and Plaguebearers both suffer from static standing poses. While the Pink Horrors from 2012, are far more dynamic. I'd say something like the DE Wyches running poses would've have been the sweet spot for Daemonettes as opposed to the Dark Elves Witch Elves which I thing take dynamic posing to far. I used to feel the same way about the Seeker being static. But honestly, their much better sculpts and the dinosaur/bird like anatomy the went with doesn't really allow a lot of dynamism anyway. The chariots I agreed did not need 3 near identical variations for the sake of variation.
Pink Horrors IIRC are from August 2009, the same 'wave release' that saw the Bloodcrushers move from a mono-pose melta model into the proper multi-pose plastic kit, as well also bringing us the plastic Seekers kit.
The 2012? WD update was when we got the new Slaanesh chariots of all types, and plastic Flamers + I believe the Blue Scribes.
The 2013 codex release gave us the Tzeentch & Khorne chariots, plastic Plaguebearers + plastic Herald, and a handful of Finecrap characters.
Lythrandire Biehrellian wrote: Off topic but, why would you expect daemons to be anatomically correct at all!?! They are pure energy given whatever form their deity decides would make them the most effective.
Because that bs makes for terrible models. Ugly, misshapen models should not be justified by "This is what they look like under the illusion" or "they're just pure energy so they can look however they like," because they're still ugly misshapen models. Models should only be unrealistic for the purpose of making them look better, not worse.
And that goes for these new Wulfen, too. If you're going to have the Wulfen be mutants, it should be because you want an excuse to make the models look better than if they were not mutants.
After looking at them over the last few days. I know longer hate the new Wulfen models...they're okay-ish. Still something along the lines of Corvus Belli's Dog warriors or their Ariadna Antipode Assault Pack is far better. In fact that's what I'd proxy if I played Space Wolves. Silly...silly ice claws.
I've had to remove an extremely inappropriate post and the subsequent replies to it. There is absolutely no tolerance on Dakka for making fun of disabled people... please use other more appropriate language to express your preference on miniatures / sculpts / etc.
Sersi wrote: After looking at them over the last few days. I know longer hate the knew Wulfen models...they're okay-ish. Still comething along the lines of Corvus Belli's Dog warriors or their Ariadna Antipode Assault Pack is far better. In fact that's what I'd proxy if I played Space Wolves. Silly...silly ice claws.
That's called acclamation. You're just used to them now.
I think that the best thing to come out of what I have seen so far is that these guys are not an auto take for the list. New models usually get the best rules, but I just don't see them having that OP edge. Actually pretty balanced for what else you could be putting your points into.
That is definitely true, having more options without feeling forced to take them (cough, Thunderwolves, cough) is great to have. I am really curious to see just how deep the rabbit hole goes with this release, is it just a Wulfen box, a character and the campaign book or will we get some other stuff? I recall Atia stating that there would be a whole heap of small splash releases this year so I am curious to see which armies will get updates.
Sersi wrote: After looking at them over the last few days. I know longer hate the knew Wulfen models...they're okay-ish. Still comething along the lines of Corvus Belli's Dog warriors or their Ariadna Antipode Assault Pack is far better. In fact that's what I'd proxy if I played Space Wolves. Silly...silly ice claws.
That's called acclamation. You're just used to them now.
I'll wait til the plastic comes out and see how it all comes together (and how easy it is to modify the things I don't like) before I give it a final thumbs up or down. It's pretty hard to tell with blurry pic, and anyways, sometimes, pose complaints are totally valid, while other times, they're so easy to improve (look at the Calth Contemptor).
I don't think I'll like them, but it's not like I'm a Space Wolf player, so at worst, it'll be some unit I pass on. Maybe it's something worthy of a conversion; or -- slim chance -- maybe it's a lot better than it looks at first glance.
Jayden63 wrote:I think that the best thing to come out of what I have seen so far is that these guys are not an auto take for the list. New models usually get the best rules, but I just don't see them having that OP edge. Actually pretty balanced for what else you could be putting your points into.
But then again, this has only been one unit.
I actually thought the rules were pretty good, especially considering that it's Space Wolves, who don't have a ton of really great choices to pick from in the current codex. I mean, it's nice to have another decent unit other than TWC.
What I'm most interested in is the campaign and any tweaks to the faction from that angle (super-formation gimme gimme). I don't think it will coax me into playing Wolves any time soon (though I do love a lot of the models), but levelling it all out a little would make me happy
Jayden63 wrote: I think that the best thing to come out of what I have seen so far is that these guys are not an auto take for the list. New models usually get the best rules, but I just don't see them having that OP edge. Actually pretty balanced for what else you could be putting your points into.
But then again, this has only been one unit.
Agree. I usually find myself with a solid core of grey hunters, pods, longfangs, a priest and some tank, to run the basic part of the battle.
Whatever extra points i have left go to cool or fluffy units, or to counter a specific enemy.
There is really no need to cram in wolf mutatnts, or wolf mutant dreadnoughts etc, if you dont want to.
Sersi wrote: After looking at them over the last few days. I know longer hate the knew Wulfen models...they're okay-ish. Still comething along the lines of Corvus Belli's Dog warriors or their Ariadna Antipode Assault Pack is far better. In fact that's what I'd proxy if I played Space Wolves. Silly...silly ice claws.
That's called acclamation. You're just used to them now.
I'll wait til the plastic comes out and see how it all comes together (and how easy it is to modify the things I don't like) before I give it a final thumbs up or down. It's pretty hard to tell with blurry pic, and anyways, sometimes, pose complaints are totally valid, while other times, they're so easy to improve (look at the Calth Contemptor).
I don't think I'll like them, but it's not like I'm a Space Wolf player, so at worst, it'll be some unit I pass on. Maybe it's something worthy of a conversion; or -- slim chance -- maybe it's a lot better than it looks at first glance.
Even if poses are easy to fix, it doesn't mean the pose complaints aren't then valid. The poses should be good from the get go without having to fix them.
I also wonder just how much better these guys will look with normal SM running pose type legs. Leave the bare arms and more ferral heads. I'm hoping that they will be very compatible with the normal wolf pack box of boys.
I can't at this moment think of any possible use for the extra hairy legs, but maybe something will come up.
Sersi wrote: After looking at them over the last few days. I know longer hate the knew Wulfen models...they're okay-ish. Still comething along the lines of Corvus Belli's Dog warriors or their Ariadna Antipode Assault Pack is far better. In fact that's what I'd proxy if I played Space Wolves. Silly...silly ice claws.
That's called acclamation. You're just used to them now.
I'll wait til the plastic comes out and see how it all comes together (and how easy it is to modify the things I don't like) before I give it a final thumbs up or down. It's pretty hard to tell with blurry pic, and anyways, sometimes, pose complaints are totally valid, while other times, they're so easy to improve (look at the Calth Contemptor).
I don't think I'll like them, but it's not like I'm a Space Wolf player, so at worst, it'll be some unit I pass on. Maybe it's something worthy of a conversion; or -- slim chance -- maybe it's a lot better than it looks at first glance.
Even if poses are easy to fix, it doesn't mean the pose complaints aren't then valid. The poses should be good from the get go without having to fix them.
i totally disagree with this, ImAGeek...
not the part about pose complaints being valid, but the part about poses needing to be good from the get go...
i have rarely seen a mini, from any manufacturer, that satisfies my aesthetic tastes 100%...
some flaws i can accept without change, some i can't and so pass on buying, and others i get a deep satisfaction from changing to suit my tastes...
if i could sculpt, rather than convert, the minis to be exactly what i envision, then i would never have to buy anything other than Greenstuff...
the fact that a sculptor is not in my head, means it is pretty much a crap-shoot whether a sculpt is going to be "good" compared to what i have in my head...
a sculpt not matching your ideas doesn't make it bad, just different, and maybe not worth buying...
just look at all of the people who gripe about "tactical rocks", "tactical detritus", and "rage fist" in the Infinity forum, and then look at how many people (like me) who don't have a problem with it...
really, do you expect that you and a sculptor could possibly be on the same page all the time???
Sersi wrote: After looking at them over the last few days. I know longer hate the knew Wulfen models...they're okay-ish. Still comething along the lines of Corvus Belli's Dog warriors or their Ariadna Antipode Assault Pack is far better. In fact that's what I'd proxy if I played Space Wolves. Silly...silly ice claws.
That's called acclamation. You're just used to them now.
I'll wait til the plastic comes out and see how it all comes together (and how easy it is to modify the things I don't like) before I give it a final thumbs up or down. It's pretty hard to tell with blurry pic, and anyways, sometimes, pose complaints are totally valid, while other times, they're so easy to improve (look at the Calth Contemptor).
I don't think I'll like them, but it's not like I'm a Space Wolf player, so at worst, it'll be some unit I pass on. Maybe it's something worthy of a conversion; or -- slim chance -- maybe it's a lot better than it looks at first glance.
Even if poses are easy to fix, it doesn't mean the pose complaints aren't then valid. The poses should be good from the get go without having to fix them.
i totally disagree with this, ImAGeek...
not the part about pose complaints being valid, but the part about poses needing to be good from the get go...
i have rarely seen a mini, from any manufacturer, that satisfies my aesthetic tastes 100%...
some flaws i can accept without change, some i can't and so pass on buying, and others i get a deep satisfaction from changing to suit my tastes...
if i could sculpt, rather than convert, the minis to be exactly what i envision, then i would never have to buy anything other than Greenstuff...
the fact that a sculptor is not in my head, means it is pretty much a crap-shoot whether a sculpt is going to be "good" compared to what i have in my head...
a sculpt not matching your ideas doesn't make it bad, just different, and maybe not worth buying...
just look at all of the people who gripe about "tactical rocks", "tactical detritus", and "rage fist" in the Infinity forum, and then look at how many people (like me) who don't have a problem with it...
really, do you expect that you and a sculptor could possibly be on the same page all the time???
cheers
jah
I agree to a point, but find it unlikely there's some one out there talking to a sculptor about how much they love the skull pimple aesthetic on the new chaos stuff. In regards to the wulfen sculpts, I'd just assumed someone was working at GW as a sculptor to pay for dance lessons.
Oh, you mean consistent throughout the entire model? Yeah, me too.
Sersi wrote:After looking at them over the last few days. I know longer hate the knew Wulfen models...they're okay-ish. Still something along the lines of Corvus Belli's Dog warriors or their Ariadna Antipode Assault Pack is far better. In fact that's what I'd proxy if I played Space Wolves. Silly...silly ice claws.
As the saying goes, you'll get used to anything, except to an icicle (ice claw?) up in your rear. Yeah those claws are still a bad idea, too much of an 80's cartoon thing going on. I wonder if the snowball is made out of magic super hard never-melting snow..
Fenris where its always winter and never Christmas. Since, the Dark Angels are also involved in the Campaign some how we have a the Lion. Logan Grimnar with his sleigh is Santa. So we just need and Eldar Farseer for the Witch...well I suppose some daemon tart will do.
lonewolf81 wrote: Is there a place in the german white dwarf , that says that spacewolves will get great company specific formations, data cards and psychic powers??
I don't know for sure but I'm assuming it is all but confirmed, if Daemons are getting ten formations in what is a Space Wolf driven release model-wise then I'm sure the pups will get their own set too, especially as Space Wolves don't really have that many formations to work with currently!
lonewolf81 wrote: Is there a place in the german white dwarf , that says that spacewolves will get great company specific formations, data cards and psychic powers??
kodos wrote: And the original Frost blades were made with teeth from the Kraken and not of magic ice.
The Kraken thin came in 3rd edition I think. I liked Frost weapons more when there was only 1... Frostfang...
"Frostfang is a mighty weapon crafted centuries ago by Iron Priest Fergus Forgim, the famed master craftsman of the Space Wolves. Its chainsaw blade is fashioned from a rare metal whose secret died with the ancient Iron Priest."
I mentioned it earlier but I think since 2nd edition Space Wolves are one of the armies that has suffered from being fleshed out too much. Having Fenrisian Wolves in the army is as far as they should have gone. Thunderwolf Cavalry, Logan Claus, Murderfang and in general having the "Wolf factor" turned up to 11 ruined the appeal of them to me.
What, you have a hard time imagining giant kennels aboard Space Wolf Strike Cruisers and Battlebarges?
I actually don't mind Fenrisian Wolves and even Thunderwolves (if it weren't for the fact they are Thunderwolf Cavalry and were instead just Thunderwolves traipsing around). Packs of loyal Wolves wandering around I think isn't too bad, I think it's even mentioned in the fluff that Wolves from Fenris are exceptionally intelligent, or was that my imagination?
But that's about as far as I'd take it. When you start riding the wolves, getting the wolves to pull your hovering chariot and tons of weapons labelled Wolf-something or Frost-something it just reaches comic books levels of silliness.
I think from 2nd edition (maybe even 3rd edition) Space Wolves you could have gone either down the gritty wolf themed viking road or the comically silly viking themed wolf road, GW chose the latter. Before then it was more up to the imagination of the gamer.
jah-joshua wrote:i have rarely seen a mini, from any manufacturer, that satisfies my aesthetic tastes 100%...
Nobody is asking for 100%. We're asking for like, I dunno, 70%, these things are somewhere down around 20%. Obviously these things are subjective but at the same time there are tangible factors which is why when you get a thread of "coolest models ever" the same handful always come to the fore.
On the rare occasion something 100% satisfies my aesthetic taste, I buy it, regardless of what army it's for. Those models are few and far between.
There's a wide space between "100% satisfaction" and "this model is so bad the only way to make it passable is with heavy conversion work".
Especially on models that have exposed musculature (which, like decent robes, is out of the realm of most peoples' ability to resculpt) you want them to look reasonably good out of the box.
I don't think GW is removing Bjorn from the Codex - especially now he has a new kit - as mentioned on an earlier page of this thread. But I found this BL story about him being seriously wounded and under repairs in the WD 105 review by Beardy Hammer
This audio gives an unparalleled insight into the mind of the first Great Wolf, Bjorn, after the disappearance of the Space Wolves Primarch Leman Russ – and there's a dramatisation of perhaps the most impiortant moment of Bjorn's life, and Space Wolves history: Russ leaving the chapter
Abandoned by his primarch and left to lead the Space Wolves into an uncertain future, Bjorn the Fell-Handed is amongst the greatets of the sons of Russ. But even legends must fall, and when Bjorn meets his end on a distant world, his body broken beyond repair, his brothers battle to save him and he remembers the events that brought him to this place... and realises his destiny.
This audio gives an unparalleled insight into the mind of the first Great Wolf, Bjorn, after the disappearance of the Space Wolves Primarch Leman Russ – and there's a dramatisation of perhaps the most impiortant moment of Bjorn's life, and Space Wolves history: Russ leaving the chapter
Abandoned by his primarch and left to lead the Space Wolves into an uncertain future, Bjorn the Fell-Handed is amongst the greatets of the sons of Russ. But even legends must fall, and when Bjorn meets his end on a distant world, his body broken beyond repair, his brothers battle to save him and he remembers the events that brought him to this place... and realises his destiny.
From the White Dwarf description it makes it sound like Bjorn is dying in current time 40k and recalling the stories of Leman Russ.
To me, it reads like this is how he came to be interred in a Dreadnought.
Remember that the whole schtick with Dreadnoughts is that it is those heroes who are "beyond repair of conventional means", where augmetics won't be a way to fix the issue.
The more I look at the wulfen, it really is just the head that throws me off completely. Same problem I have with the general space wolf heads. I think with a headswap I will be fine with them. Still, have to see the sprues. Right now it definitely will need some part swaps. However I might just have to find something else instead to use....anyone think the flying sigmar guys might work?
Kanluwen wrote: To me, it reads like this is how he came to be interred in a Dreadnought.
Remember that the whole schtick with Dreadnoughts is that it is those heroes who are "beyond repair of conventional means", where augmetics won't be a way to fix the issue.
Having listened to it already, it's Bjorn being plugged into a Dreadnought sarcophagus. He's recalling the last feast he had with Leman Russ before he left him behind while the Iron Priest and Apothecaries plug him in.
About Bjorn - the ragnar books start with ragnar getting shot in the head or something, and remembering everything while he is out cold.
As for the translated leaks, hot mamma its nice to have it all translated and spelled out! Hope we can equip current SW models with some of that gear! Perhaps a WG unit filled with frost pistols?
Some people will say yes, and RAW is yes, but as is the case for most of these particular issues there will be a fairly strong and completely reasonable RAI argument for no.
If there's something AoS did right it's the keywords. Makes rules references be a lot more clear. "All WULFEN can run and charge in the same turn." Done!
Not a moan, but I look at those stats, those rules and think... Damn, death company got shafted! They pretty much have the exact rule set that suits death company perfectly. The only thing I would change is the effect on the long fangs/veterens. I'd reverse it for death company, so the vets are more susceptible to falling. Oh, and a full armour save in exchange for the super charged melee weapons.
So, a wulfen strike 2 times ? When he fight at his initiative 5, and when he dies (except if he dies first, in this case he fight only once, when he dies) ?
endlesswaltz123 wrote: Not a moan, but I look at those stats, those rules and think... Damn, death company got shafted! They pretty much have the exact rule set that suits death company perfectly. The only thing I would change is the effect on the long fangs/veterens. I'd reverse it for death company, so the vets are more susceptible to falling. Oh, and a full armour save in exchange for the super charged melee weapons.
I think it's even more groan worthy when you realise that these rules would be an even better fit for Possessed.
endlesswaltz123 wrote: Not a moan, but I look at those stats, those rules and think... Damn, death company got shafted! They pretty much have the exact rule set that suits death company perfectly. The only thing I would change is the effect on the long fangs/veterens. I'd reverse it for death company, so the vets are more susceptible to falling. Oh, and a full armour save in exchange for the super charged melee weapons.
Eh, I wouldn't say completely shafted, but the amount of love Space Wolves get is stupid.
That a lot of AP2 hitting at initiative. Used to be a reasonably rare thing, but if Wolves in general get access to these toys, they are going to have it in spades.
endlesswaltz123 wrote: Not a moan, but I look at those stats, those rules and think... Damn, death company got shafted! They pretty much have the exact rule set that suits death company perfectly. The only thing I would change is the effect on the long fangs/veterens. I'd reverse it for death company, so the vets are more susceptible to falling. Oh, and a full armour save in exchange for the super charged melee weapons.
Eh, I wouldn't say completely shafted, but the amount of love Space Wolves get is stupid.
You really feel the love with their names don't you? At least nobody endlessly mocks it.
So, a wulfen strike 2 times ? When he fight at his initiative 5, and when he dies (except if he dies first, in this case he fight only once, when he dies) ?
Correct.
Yee Gods. Ok these guys just got seriously better.....
Lets say i fight someone in initiative step 1 (we are both init 1) i dont kill him but he does, do i as a wulfen at the end of the init step 1 pile in and attack again ???
lonewolf81 wrote: Lets say i fight someone in initiative step 1 (we are both init 1) i dont kill him but he does, do i as a wulfen at the end of the init step 1 pile in and attack again ???
No.
edit: Actually, I re-read it. Yes, you can since it happens at the end of the current step.
lonewolf81 wrote: Lets say i fight someone in initiative step 1 (we are both init 1) i dont kill him but he does, do i as a wulfen at the end of the init step 1 pile in and attack again ???
No.
Are you sure? It certainly seems that they do, seeing as it specifically says at the END of the initiative step in which they die. So, tgey strike and die, then at the end of that step do it again.
lonewolf81 wrote: Lets say i fight someone in initiative step 1 (we are both init 1) i dont kill him but he does, do i as a wulfen at the end of the init step 1 pile in and attack again ???
I'm going to say "yes", because it specifically says "at the end of the current Initiative step", which means after both sides have fought at Ini 1, the Initiative step comes to an end and the dead Wulfen fights again. The only way to kill a Wulfen and stop him fighting twice is to have a higher Ini.
As an aside... damn it, GW, I don't want more random tables.
ICs are probably covered by "all non-vehicle Space Wolves units".
We were talking about whether IC's could join the unit, I believe Ghaz was questioning whether "Curse of the Wulfen" would prevent IC's from joining (and thus preventing certain special characters joinging up to have movement shenanigans with Bounding Lope).
Also I find it sad that we have so many Special Rules now in 40k that they had to call it "Bounding Lope" instead of "Bounding Leap" which is already owned by Hormagants
I literally cannot wait to see what BS excuses SW players come up with to try and claim that these guys are anything but massively OP...
Oh, and yet another convenient theft of a Chaos toy... Daemons used to be the guys who got cheap at-initiative ap2 ccws. Now SW's get better and cheaper versions because, "reasons".
As an aside... damn it, GW, I don't want more random tables.
ICs are probably covered by "all non-vehicle Space Wolves units".
units of Wulfen are not affected by the curse of the wulfen table (the same for fenrisian wolves)
So an IC joining the unit does not benefit from the chart, the same for an IC joining a unit of fenrisian wolves
endlesswaltz123 wrote: Not a moan, but I look at those stats, those rules and think... Damn, death company got shafted! They pretty much have the exact rule set that suits death company perfectly. The only thing I would change is the effect on the long fangs/veterens. I'd reverse it for death company, so the vets are more susceptible to falling. Oh, and a full armour save in exchange for the super charged melee weapons.
I think it's even more groan worthy when you realise that these rules would be an even better fit for Possessed.
Yep, can't complain with that argument. I mean the wulfen game mechanics do make sense, I don't disagree with them fluff wise, but the same sort of force multiplying mechanics would be great with other units too, possessed and death company are great examples of that. Heck, terminators as well in vanilla marines, knobs in orks, scions in guard.
I don't think it would be unreasonable for each army to have an elite unit that acts as a force multiplier of some sort, as long as the rules were vastly different.
Whilst I have no real love for more randomly determined tables.....ye gods theres some pretty OTT stuff going on there. #6 on the kill chart? Did terminators just make a comeback?
The situation looks OP until you break it down a bit.
Wulfen with claws are 42 points each. And yes its scary. 5-7 S6 ap2 attacks on the charge is pretty damn scary. However, they are only T4 and a 4+ save. Anything S8 or better (and lets face it, there is a lot of that) is going to drop a guy per shot (save cover). Heck, the humble missile launcher has just made a come back. It will be the classic problem of killing too much on the charge. These guys are probably going to totally wipe out whatever they hit thus leaving themselves wide open for counter shooting. And did I mention that they are 42 points each for the best toys?
As for the curse chart, the best buffs are only on a 6 and the guys you really want to benefit from them are 6" range. So, unless your castled up I cant see the buffs being handed out like candy. These guys really do seem pretty balanced, especially given what has already transpired over the last few codexs.
Yes there will be the perfect storm where your TWC with attached Wolf Lord get Reckless Fury right before smashing into something, but they are 5 times more than likely to get one of the other results which really wont help them at all. Add too it that the most valuable time for a roll on the Kill chart would be on the turn you charge, but alas you can't get it there, so in that regard its pretty self limiting too. In fact the kill chart isn't all that useful except probably to a unit of "claws" that are already engaged. Any one of those results will greatly help turn the combat and you could easily get the Wulfen with in 12" and "Claw" units can be large so more models will benefit from the result.
OP or not, isn't it kind of dumb for a 42 point Space Wolf to be basically better in all ways than a 75 point Herald of Khorne? The Herald has +2 WS and a Mastercrafted Weapon, but is a wash on the other stats and has Furious Charge and Fear instead of Rage, Counter Attack, ATSKNF, Bounding Leap, Shred, and Death Frenzy. FNP and 5+ Invuln are about the same but the Wulfen get 4+ Armour also...
Jayden tell that to my nids or deamons or orks or dark eldar. With there speed they will catch a unit and kill it. And of course people will put presience and or invis on them they are just plain nasty+.
I was pretty sure a herald of khorne was higher initiative than 5, but not 100%. Also thought ws7, but once again unsure. Or are the wulfen ws5?
Heralds have "access" to rage, hatred, potential instant death, juggernauts, one turn use count a charge dice as a 6, and buff any unit they join with their Locus abilities.. but yes there is quite a disparity there in terms of face wreckage. Can't really claim psychic support either as that is possible with both codices of the units in question.
Daemons need a good reworking, but I think we'll have to wait awhile.. This seems like just a bandaid for us. I hope we see more units like wulfen in the future though, their rules look useful, fun, and kinda balanced.
Oh, you're right, +1 Init and 1 more WS on the Heralds (they're WS7, Wolfen WS4). Not sure how I messed that up. And yes, you can add to them, but those additions aren't cheap, and you can't reasonably get more than 2 or 3.
Skullhammer wrote: Jayden tell that to my nids or deamons or orks or dark eldar. With there speed they will catch a unit and kill it. And of course people will put presience and or invis on them they are just plain nasty+.
That is the problem. They catch a unit, kill it, then die next turn. I know where my Tankbusta boys will be firing next turn. I have how many Dark lances in my DE list, blastmasters in my Emperors Children? As for any of the other 7.5 codexs isn't D weapons a common thing now? Its no different than how I've killed countless units of death company over the years. S8 to knock out FNP and hopefully ap3 or better to ruin armor saves. These guys will drop.
You just have to know what your willing to sacrifice.
As for invisibility or other psychic buffs that are not natively available to SW psychers.... thats a problem with the game, not this unit. And I agree, its a big problem, but its a core game balance problem, not a unit specific one.
Skullhammer wrote: Jayden tell that to my nids or deamons or orks or dark eldar. With there speed they will catch a unit and kill it. And of course people will put presience and or invis on them they are just plain nasty+.
Totally agree with this. Good to see GW continues to make ridiculous rules to sell the new, albeit very awful looking, models. I keep holding my breath for new Chaos Marines but after seeing how they've handled the AOS Chaos stuff, I should be careful what I wish for.
I bet that Khorne Daemonkin will get an update before CSM will get one (to be fair, there is a chance that Daemonkin will get an update together with Daemons in this book)
Meh. People keep freaking out about OP new Assault units and then they realize unless they're moving 12" a turn with Psychic Support and 3++ and at least T5, no one actually uses them in games.
A T4 unit with 4+, no Move Through Cover, no Fleet for runs, and no Invuln unless you shell out +20 points for the model? Sounds like prime candidate for getting stuck in cover and then dying to something like TFCs or Scatbikes.
I think at least a few SSs are going to be needed if these guys are going to live. While it doesn’t get a lot of press, there is a reasonable amount of AP4 stuff out there.
Fist time a squad of Wulfen gets erased by HBs, there’s going to be a lot of laughs...
Requizen wrote: Meh. People keep freaking out about OP new Assault units and then they realize unless they're moving 12" a turn with Psychic Support and 3++ and at least T5, no one actually uses them in games.
A T4 unit with 4+, no Move Through Cover, no Fleet for runs, and no Invuln unless you shell out +20 points for the model? Sounds like prime candidate for getting stuck in cover and then dying to something like TFCs or Scatbikes.
Except that Wulfen can run & charge in the same turn. Not seeing how "getting there" is going to be problematic for these guys since they effective have old school Fleet of Foot.
and yeah, the unit is utterly bonkers and is a massive flip of the bird to Chaos in general. About the only real 'counter' is the always abusive Invis on Seekers/Str.D 'Thirster, or just tarpit the damn thing with a re-rolled 2++ Tzeentch unit.
Chaos Marines on the other hand can just go home. (not that that's really anything new for them! )
Consider that a Khorne Herald w/Killing Blow axe + Rage Locus alone is 85pts. He skyrockets to 130pts if you slap him on a Juggernaught.
And yet SW players think that just shy of 45pts a pop is fair for these guys?! Give me a break. You can just blindly throw these guys at whatever the hell you want dead and they'll kill it - even SH's/GMC's will pee themselves, thanks to their frankly insulting ability to double attack/still attack when killed!
If this was a Chaos or Xenos unit, we all know that there'd be no discussion - it would be outright declared OP and rightly so. But, Imperial bias is biased.
Requizen wrote: Meh. People keep freaking out about OP new Assault units and then they realize unless they're moving 12" a turn with Psychic Support and 3++ and at least T5, no one actually uses them in games.
A T4 unit with 4+, no Move Through Cover, no Fleet for runs, and no Invuln unless you shell out +20 points for the model? Sounds like prime candidate for getting stuck in cover and then dying to something like TFCs or Scatbikes.
Except that Wulfen can run & charge in the same turn. Not seeing how "getting there" is going to be problematic for these guys since they effective have old school Fleet of Foot.
and yeah, the unit is utterly bonkers and is a massive flip of the bird to Chaos in general. About the only real 'counter' is the always abusive Invis on Seekers/Str.D 'Thirster, or just tarpit the damn thing with a re-rolled 2++ Tzeentch unit.
Chaos Marines on the other hand can just go home. (not that that's really anything new for them! )
Consider that a Khorne Herald w/Killing Blow axe + Rage Locus alone is 85pts. He skyrockets to 130pts if you slap him on a Juggernaught.
And yet SW players think that just shy of 45pts a pop is fair for these guys?! Give me a break. You can just blindly throw these guys at whatever the hell you want dead and they'll kill it - even SH's/GMC's will pee themselves, thanks to their frankly insulting ability to double attack/still attack when killed!
If this was a Chaos or Xenos unit, we all know that there'd be no discussion - it would be outright declared OP and rightly so. But, Imperial bias is biased.
What bias? I play strictly Chaos and Xenos.
Move + Run isn't the same as being on a Thunderwolf or Bike, especially in cover. The average move is 9" in the open, 6" in cover. As long as the opponent isn't standing still, that's not as big of a deal as people think it is. Rerolling charge is great, but Overwatch still exists, and Heavy Flamers get d3 free hits that ignore their Armor.
They're a strong Assault unit - honestly a really strong one. But so are lots of other things that don't get taken because, guess what, Assault isn't that strong on anything that doesn't have massive defensive capabilities. There are very few (any??) squishy but powerful Assault units that are competitively used.
For the price of 5 of these guys with Frost Claws, you can get 23 Daemonettes! They're nearly as fast (probably moreso over a couple turns due to the extra Run distance and Fleet), and have way more attacks all with Rending! And they all have 5++ which can get buffed, and that's more than double the wounds! Or you could trade some for Characters with AP2 weapons and all the same great rules! OP! Or 17 Seekers, which is still more Wounds and Attacks but way the hell faster!
But no one takes Daemonettes because foot Assault units without amazing saves don't really work. Wulfen may be tougher and better in Assault, but that doesn't change the fact that they're going to melt to shooting before they ever get where they're going.
So you didnt notice the dedicated assault transport they have which deamons/nids dont have or the fact its a flyer and deamons have 2 s8+ shooting attacks in the whole dex one no one takes as its expencive one shot with gaurd bs the other they get armour against. And nids have 2 as well only one of which will be any use (heavy ven cannon).
They are very strong but what pushes them over (for me) is still attacking when they die even if they attacked already thats just nuts.
But that flier is overcosted and you dont see it in any competitive lists. Requizen is right- yes they are a good close combat unit and have the double attack which is nice if you get to close combat something like a knight or MC which would eat the squad- however, how many wulfen will make it into combat against a shooty army.... 1-2 maybe? Certainly against competitive Eldar list or Tau list, zero will make it into combat. Well if they are shooting at the wulfen, they cant be shooting at other units right- well that's true, but wulfen aren't cheap so their shooting is justified. Wulfen are good, Thunderwolves are more resilient and faster and can have characters tanking in front. Now, if you could take them in squads less than 5 and they werent bulky you could put them in drop pods with characters in termie armor to tank for them, then let them run wild, but min size is 5 with bulky so no tanking. Space Wolves in my opinion needed more mid range shooting in an environment where shooting is king- instead they got a close combat squad similar to one they already had. Super, but it isn't going to really change the competitive lists.
The augmenting other units while great on the outside has some flaws. First, its a random table so you may not roll anything that helps you that round. Next, look at the range. Bloodclaws get the most advantages at 12 inches, but they dont get increased attacks as they have rage, and you are still dealing with units no one took as bloodclaws of all variants are WS/BS 3. All other units are 6 inches. To me (and I wont state that I am a 40k expert, but if you are taking a unit which is very vulnerable to large blasts (Wulfen) and are on foot, the worst thing I could do was put a bunch of other units within 6 inches of them, that is just asking to get pummeled by all sorts of templates. Tau, Eldar, IG even would have a field day. Now, are some armies more vulnerable to wulfen than others, sure, most of the armies that havent been updated- but again, I would bet that Eldar, Tau, Necrons and even SM and DA are still going to do more than okay against SW with wulfen, its certainly not going to upset any power rankings.
Now maybe some of the formations give them options to outflank or infiltrate- something to get them closer to combat and that will change things, but right now, rule for rule, I would still stick with TWC and Iron Priests with Thunderhammers.
Skullhammer wrote: So you didnt notice the dedicated assault transport they have which deamons/nids dont have or the fact its a flyer and deamons have 2 s8+ shooting attacks in the whole dex one no one takes as its expencive one shot with gaurd bs the other they get armour against. And nids have 2 as well only one of which will be any use (heavy ven cannon).
They are very strong but what pushes them over (for me) is still attacking when they die even if they attacked already thats just nuts.
Sorry for the rant.
You mean the transport that means they don't come in until T2 or later, and can't charge until T3 or later, which can also get blown up, which does damage to them and leaves them helpless on foot?
Assault vehicles are in the game. You don't see Assault Marines, Death Company, or other Assault foot deathstars allying in the Stormwolf because it's good.
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