Fayric wrote: Im sure I can assemble and paint these guys to make a reallly nice unit.
GW deliberatley do a crap job att their models so pepole wont be discouraged when their own models look flat.
A good paint job is a good paint job, a rubbish model is a rubbish model. The former can mitigate the latter, but it can't change it.
I will reserve my final judgment for when I actually see them and anyone with a memory should do the same? How many times we have only seen the worst in blurry preview pictures to change our minds when we actually see things IRL?
GW seems particularly good at failing with official pictures so any blurry preview of those is merely a caricature of what is actually in the kit.
I don't do Space marines I find them horrible etc proportion wise but its hilarious when people trash these models as some kind heresy towards flawless and accurate past incarnations of spacepuppies or marines, guess what SM always been the worst of the worst in that department. You may say you love the cute style and thats ok I get that, but do not come here and say they were kind of anatomically accurate and not toyish. Hell thats not GW forte and never has been, so get over it
The AOS comparison is also funny, because obviously all models under AoS are offensive pieces of cr@p that need to burned.
NAVARRO wrote: I will reserve my final judgment for when I actually see them and anyone with a memory should do the same? How many times we have only seen the worst in blurry preview pictures to change our minds when we actually see things IRL?
Almost never?
I'm struggling to think of times when I've seen a blurry pic, hated it, and then magically liked it when better pics came along. Like, really, it almost never happens.
There might have been a few times when I liked a model and then liked it more, or hated a model and then hated it more. Rarely, if ever, have I swung from dislike to like.
I think the wolf's head flyer I disliked and then I swung to "acceptance", but that was less about blurry pics and more just looking at it frequently enough to accept it. I still don't "like" it though.
I guess they all have wolfy legs because they will have some form of fast movement rule like Skitarrii. The one on the right seems to have a gun on his backpack.
The axeman looks quite good so far, the crane is stupid.
I was never a fan of wulfen and didn't buy them in 3rd, but I think I'll get a box of those if only to use the backpacks for character conversions
I would have preferred something to improve the generic Great Companies but maybe there will be at least some usable formations.
The models probably don't have many assembly variants, but that's always the case when the poses are more fancy than the basic squating marine stance.
I think a good example for you would be compare GW past Golden deamon coverage against the artists personal pictures on same jobs... it goes from mediocre paintjobs and composition at GW to a work of art in artists galleries.
Same applies to any sculpt and paintjob really, you see its a 3d piece after all, not a 2d image ( to be honest the 3d rotation tool at gw does give an accurate look at the mini).
I lost count of how many times miniatures were a clear pass for me until I actually hold them IRL... thats the beauty of having things in your hands so you can see the actually scale of it with no zooms or invisible flaws.
I remember looking at savage orcs previews and thinking these muscles are so square its plain horrible, again just bad paintjob and now I have loads of them, this has happened consistently so many times in all these years with GW its not even funny.
GW just does not seem to have the skills to preview things like the likes of corvus belli and others.
I think I got misunderstood by C6 then Talys; I LOVE the BoC models. They're great. They looked great from the get go. Even with blurry pics, they were never in the same league as the garbage that these Wulfen seem to be.
BoC=awesome.
Wulfen=dog gak.
Talys will still probably buy 4 boxes to ally in with his BAs though, because they're marines!
NAVARRO wrote: I think a good example for you would be compare GW past Golden deamon coverage against the artists personal pictures on same jobs... it goes from mediocre paintjobs and composition at GW to a work of art in artists galleries. Same applies to any sculpt and paintjob really, you see its a 3d piece after all, not a 2d image ( to be honest the 3d rotation tool at gw does give an accurate look at the mini).
I lost count of how many times miniatures were a clear pass for me until I actually hold them IRL... thats the beauty of having things in your hands so you can see the actually scale of it with no zooms or invisible flaws. I remember looking at savage orcs previews and thinking these muscles are so square its plain horrible, again just bad paintjob and now I have loads of them, this has happened consistently so many times in all these years with GW its not even funny.
GW just does not seem to have the skills to preview things like the likes of corvus belli and others.
I understand what you mean.... but for me personally, no, models don't magically go from looking like gak in preview pictures to good in real life.
After a while you learn to pick up on the pitfalls of photography and poor painting and see when you do or don't like a model from a picture.
I'm not saying there aren't times when something might look like gak in a photo and look decent in real life.... those moments (for me at least) are few and far between. More often than not if I can see the models well enough in the first blurry pics of them then I'm not going to suddenly change my mind down the track.
@Navarro: to be fair, even CB's minis are way better in hand than they are in pics, because the magic is in seeing the reality of the small scale of everything in hand...
the advantage that CB has, is that they let Angel do really amazing paint jobs for the basic catalogue...
the paint jobs that the 'Eavy Metal guys do on their own time really make the GW minis shine...
i do agree with you that the GW sprues are way more impressive in hand...
the Stormsurge and Archaon are two of the most recent kits that didn't sell me until i had them in hand...
i also agree that this generation of sculpts are much better than each previous generation...
i look at my Rogue Trader Marines from back in the day, and i thank all the gods that i have this new generation of Marine sculpts to work on...
that said, i am not a fan of the overall look of these guys, but then i was never 100% happy with the original set of Wulfen, and i'm a huge Space Pup fan...
i do like some aspects of each of these sculpts shown, and plastic is easy to chop up, so it looks like i can finally build my dream squad of Wulfen...
they will not have furry legs...
i look forward to the rest of this release...
then Forge World's HH Wolves...
it's a good year for the Pups!!!
Apparently they've been afflicted with a horrible debilitating mutation giving them legs designed for quadrupeds. No doubt they'll all be Slow & Purposeful as a result, right?
The Wulfen were bad enough when they were "Teen Wolf", but now they're wolf-Possessed.
They've finally done it. Space Wolves have finally crossed the line. We've seen them get increasingly wolf-obsessed (to the point of absurdity) over the years, and now they have just become wolves. Nearly there, anyway.
@AllSeeingSkink Your in a better situation than me because when I go and check these minis in store I fall in love all over again and give in to temptation
@jah I know mate every time I look at my Infinity minis I cannot believe how intricate the detail is on THAT scale. ( BTW they have some great scifi wolfen minis)
I dont think the heavy metal guys are short on talent, I do think GW official PJ's are simplistic for obvious reasons and if you take overexposed pics of that then... well most models look pants.
Do you guys remember Rackham? Now those were some kickass Painjobs and pictures
Abadabadoobaddon wrote: Apparently they've been afflicted with a horrible debilitating mutation giving them legs designed for quadrupeds. No doubt they'll all be Slow & Purposeful as a result, right?
Nope, Wulfen will get unit type 'Beasts', and Possessed will instead get a random chart to roll on in both the Movement + Assault phases and become S&P.
Luckily they will probably be so expensive I don't have to worry about even debating buying them, although likely several un-named Dakka members will soon have to tell us exactly how many boxes they will be buying of them.
I think the models are incredibly goofy, but then again I always thought wolfen were goofy. I love the sagas and viking theme of the wolfs, not the trailer trash beards, scrillex hair and dog teeth for strange reasons. Did the Emperor ham a dog to create Russ for feths sake? No reason for werewolf marines. So you kind of get what you get when the premise is wolfman in space. That said, those paint jobs are AWFUL, even for the goofy model concept and design. I mean wolf fur mixed with powder blue (GW calls it grey lol, no it's blue) with mustard yellow and ketchup red side by side as accents? It's like a color blind intern picked their scheme I bet they will look a bit better with darker grimmy tones and shades with dark skin and hair. Seriously, why are GW so obscessed with ginger wolves?
Yes, because how very dare someone criticise the mighty GW...
yeah ... how dare someone criticize someone's thoughtful rant
People are entitled to their opinions without you coming along and criticizing them. Does it bother you when other people don't like what you do? Because it's always struck me as strange when people start criticizing others opinions like it is going to change them somehow. If you like them, I am happy for you, others don't and are entitled to discussion as to why without you jumping down their throat at every turn. Feel free to share why you like them instead.
but is there anything salvageable out of a constant desire to downgrade something, unless of course you agree with such low?
I prefer to reserve final judgment when clearer leaks pop up later next week ...
aracersss wrote: but is there anything salvageable out of a constant desire to downgrade something, unless of course you agree with such low?
I prefer to reserve final judgment when clearer leaks pop up later next week ...
And clearly others do not, some of whom have stated that they tend to find the clearer pictures confirm or accentuate their initial impression rather than change it. What's wrong with that?
aracersss wrote: but is there anything salvageable out of a constant desire to downgrade something, unless of course you agree with such low?
I prefer to reserve final judgment when clearer leaks pop up later next week ...
Personally I prefer to wait until;
a) I see the actual sprues
b) I then see the how the models look when built by a decent hobbyist in place of GW's builder monkeys "let's make these as stupid looking as possible!" poses.
c) I then see how properly built versions look with a suitable paint scheme instead of GW's clowntastic "paint factory explosion!" cartoon schemes.
But that's just me. I get however that it's apparently proper to drink the Kool-Aid and declare every release to be "lolz! Worst Evah!GWsux!lolzlolz!"
And clearly others do not, some of whom have stated that they tend to find the clearer pictures confirm or accentuate their initial impression rather than change it. What's wrong with that?
Isn't that the beauty of first impressions; not all of them end up corroborating the jokey conclusion
MrMoustaffa wrote: Good god those wulfen are everything I hate about space wolves rolled into one unit AND they look terrible to boot.
I'm almost impressed gw.
I actually really like the wulfen. They are just 100% perfect for my Chaos Space Wolves. It is as if GW knew I had just decided to turn my SW over to Chaos. I was just in search for some mutant freaks.
Accolade wrote: Space Wolves (as well as every other themed SM faction) seem to be suffering increasing levels of Flanderization over the last two codexes.
These guys look like they belong in AOS.
Never heard of that term before but having read about it I totally agree. From the looks of this release, and with the last wave of models (Murderfang comes to mind), the SWs haven't been done any favours recently
IMHO the usual leak-image quality problem. The actual WD or website images hopefully look much better, but this happens, like, every release these days. THIS one especially is a shame because it's so exciting the Wulfen are coming back and it's a bit of disservice to lead with blurry images (but that's just the way it goes).
Or...they could indeed actually suck or be too campy, and that would be most unfortunate. I'm sure these models will at the very least offer some inspiration for killer conversions. You could make a diorama of a hair metal band out of these at the very least
Hm, as a long time SW fan I really don't know what to say. I have mixed feelings about these current iterations of the models.
It feels like I am looking at AoS Chaos units.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Accolade wrote: Space Wolves (as well as every other themed SM faction) seem to be suffering increasing levels of Flanderization over the last two codexes.
VeteranNoob wrote: IMHO the usual leak-image quality problem. The actual WD or website images hopefully look much better, but this happens, like, every release these days. THIS one especially is a shame because it's so exciting the Wulfen are coming back and it's a bit of disservice to lead with blurry images (but that's just the way it goes).
Or...they could indeed actually suck or be too campy, and that would be most unfortunate. I'm sure these models will at the very least offer some inspiration for killer conversions. You could make a diorama of a hair metal band out of these at the very least
The image quality isn't responsible for the terrible pose on the Wulfen champion
I had such high hopes for these, the regular troops wouldnt be so bad with a more grittier paint job but the guy at the back unless he's poseable i see a lot of proxys being made
JuniorRS13 wrote: I just decided to do a SW army not too long ago, and I don't care if I am going against common opinion here, but these look awesome to me.
Wolf at me bro.
Yeah I'm digging these too. Change the heads though for sure!
Couldn't put my finger on it but a friend reminded me that the picture looks like they're doing a musical. With the guy in front going full Hamlet to boot.
Well the whole schtik of the returned 13th company wolfen seens to be that they do almost look like chaos worshipers, using armour and trophies scavenged from fallen traitor marines
so I think the look is probably good for what they're meant to be (although the 'power armour shorts' isn't a great look)
aracersss wrote: but is there anything salvageable out of a constant desire to downgrade something, unless of course you agree with such low?
I prefer to reserve final judgment when clearer leaks pop up later next week ...
Personally I prefer to wait until;
a) I see the actual sprues
b) I then see the how the models look when built by a decent hobbyist in place of GW's builder monkeys "let's make these as stupid looking as possible!" poses.
c) I then see how properly built versions look with a suitable paint scheme instead of GW's clowntastic "paint factory explosion!" cartoon schemes.
But that's just me. I get however that it's apparently proper to drink the Kool-Aid and declare every release to be "lolz! Worst Evah!GWsux!lolzlolz!"
Drink the Kool-Aid? lulz, cute.
I prefer to wait until I have seen enough to make a reasonable judgement. In this case, the 1 picture we have is enough for me to be 90% confident that I do not like these models.
Like, really, I understand some people like to wait until they've seen a model painted by a Golden Demon winning artist before passing judgement and that's fine, but can you also understand that some of us ARE already picturing what those models would look like painted by ourselves?
I've seen enough little man dollies over the past 20-something years to judge the model under the paint with reasonable confidence. I could be wrong, but past experience shows me if I don't like a model at this stage I'm not going to start liking it at later stages, at best I'll come to accept it if the rules are so awesome that I want the functionality in my army even if I don't like the models.
OrlandotheTechnicoloured wrote: Well the whole schtik of the returned 13th company wolfen seens to be that they do almost look like chaos worshipers, using armour and trophies scavenged from fallen traitor marines
so I think the look is probably good for what they're meant to be (although the 'power armour shorts' isn't a great look)
But they don't look like that. It don't seem like their armour is made up of cobbled together pieces of different marks. Which together with a darker pre-heresy grey would have looked a lot better.
Sadly, they won't look any better when we get more pictures. We'll just get so see their awfulness in sharper quality and in better higher definition.
If anything, seeing better pictures and pics of component might actually make them seem worse; like when we got to see the unnatural mono-poses of the latest AoS dwarfs in all it's "glory".
Zywus wrote: If anything, seeing better pictures and pics of component might actually make them seem worse; like when we got to see the unnatural mono-poses of the latest AoS dwarfs in all it's "glory".
I'm slightly hopeful that maybe the arms aren't monopose on these models like they were on the stunties. The Dwarfs (like Savage Orcs) tend to need to be monopose because the muscles in the arms need to line up with the muscles on the torso (even though the muscle sculpting on the Dwarfs looks terrible ). If these models have armoured torsos rather than muscled torsos the arms might be multipose rather than monopose. But we'll see. Even if they are I don't think it's going to make me love them.
OrlandotheTechnicoloured wrote: Well the whole schtik of the returned 13th company wolfen seens to be that they do almost look like chaos worshipers, using armour and trophies scavenged from fallen traitor marines
so I think the look is probably good for what they're meant to be (although the 'power armour shorts' isn't a great look)
But they don't look like that. It don't seem like their armour is made up of cobbled together pieces of different marks. Which together with a darker pre-heresy grey would have looked a lot better.
This was my thought. Looks less like cobbled pieces of CSM/SM armor than they are somewhat known for.
Fayric wrote: GW deliberatley do a crap job att their models so pepole wont be discouraged when their own models look flat.
No they don't. They, like every company who wants to sell something, put (what they believe to be) their best foot forward when showing off new product.
Fayric wrote: GW deliberatley do a crap job att their models so pepole wont be discouraged when their own models look flat.
No they don't. They, like every company who wants to sell something, put (what they believe to be) their best foot forward when showing off new product.
This. As I said earlier - first impressions count a lot. It's not like GW don't know how to do a decent first impression... look at the current Nagash...that was jaw dropping when it leaked. People didn't criticise it as roundly as people are criticising these.
Note, I do NOT want the Wulfen to fall flat - I loved the whole concept for them with Eye of Terror...but they've moved completely away from it. They seem to think that geneseed flaws result in LOL WOLF FEET. No. I liked the hulking, brutal degenerate appearance of the original Wulfen. I loved the fact they looked bestial with just enough to show that they weren't. They could have been a bit bigger or bulkier...but they certainly didn't need to literally become wolves.
Imagine they did this for Raven Guard...and gave us BIRD MEN. People would flip. The description from the HH books and background describes Corax's failed experiments as being grotesque and inhuman, with just enough to indicate their true nature...but BIRD MEN with bird feet and BIRD faces would look like they escaped a Saturday morning cartoon in the 90s.
And that's just what my problem with these Wulfen are. They look like they escaped a Saturday morning cartoon in the 90s. They have none of the grim and none of the dark that is 40k.
It's bad enough with the trend for the names... who can forget Wolf Wolfborn, of the Space Wolves, riding a giant wolf, with wolf claws and a wolf tooth wolf necklace, accompanied by wolves. Wolf wolf. Wolf wolf wolf. Wolf. WOLF.
I don't know who had the bright idea to go with silly thematic names in GW...but I pray they stop, soon.
TLDR - Wulfen look like 90s cartoon characters, not grimdark inhuman abominations that they are described as and indicated to be.
Note, I do NOT want the Wulfen to fall flat - I loved the whole concept for them with Eye of Terror...but they've moved completely away from it. They seem to think that geneseed flaws result in LOL WOLF FEET. No. I liked the hulking, brutal degenerate appearance of the original Wulfen. I loved the fact they looked bestial with just enough to show that they weren't. They could have been a bit bigger or bulkier...but they certainly didn't need to literally become wolves.
Imagine they did this for Raven Guard...and gave us BIRD MEN. People would flip. The description from the HH books and background describes Corax's failed experiments as being grotesque and inhuman, with just enough to indicate their true nature...but BIRD MEN with bird feet and BIRD faces would look like they escaped a Saturday morning cartoon in the 90s.
Not to be rude, but remember that since the introduction of the Wulfen in the Eye of Terror campaign we got the "Prospero Burns" line of "There are no wolves on Fenris"; which has been expanded/elaborated upon to indicate that the creatures we see as wolves are fully succumbed Wulfen/failed Aspirants.
I haven't really kept up with the Horus Heresy(I find the novels to be really boring/dry at times and I just can't be excited for something where I 'know' the final outcome), but wasn't the whole "Raptors" thing shut down fairly fast after the mutations first appeared?
Assuming these are meant to be specifically the Lost 13th Company(they probably are but just bear with me a bit here), they have been heavily exposed to the Eye of Terror and were known to have a large number of Wulfen even before their disappearance. Something the Eye of Terror fluff made a point of elaborating upon was that the Guardsmen and even an Inquisitor who encountered the Wulfen? They thought they were dealing with Chaos forces because of the mutations they observed the Wulfen possessing.
If anything, I kind of felt that the Wulfen models were a bit too plain after reading the fluff again. They were described as having "matted pelts" and sharpened talons, stalking their prey like beasts.
There still is a little hope for the models as it looks like we have actually only seen two of the possible poses with wargear options for the wolfen box which probably contains 10 models. The center guy is probably a unique model. That means the possibility of more armored legs, possible different torsos, maybe less bare arms. The current sw box has lots of options maybe this one will too.
However having said all that im sure the price point will probably be embarrassing.
I am pretty sure they will be super expensive but if they weren't, just imagine how much fun it would be to cut and customize them according to individual preferences.
kodos wrote: the question is, if the 13th returns, is this the first 40k EndTimes book?
As in everything gets wiped out like Fantasy? No.
As in the story is moving? Kauyon was probably first (Chapter Master Shrike), but 40K is on the move.
Yep, in that case I'm off to 30K permanently I think, no desire to see what the present crop of studio fluff writers cack out. 10,000 years of history that's barely explored yet some folk still seem to anticipate the idea of the same people who came up with Bloody-Blood-Blood Angels, Murderfang, Logan Claus, the End Times/scrapping Fantasy, and Yge of Sygmyr: Ryndom Vowyl Replycement Wyrs moving the timeline forward into what is supposed to be the end of humanity.
I haven't really kept up with the Horus Heresy(I find the novels to be really boring/dry at times and I just can't be excited for something where I 'know' the final outcome), but wasn't the whole "Raptors" thing shut down fairly fast after the mutations first appeared?
Assuming these are meant to be specifically the Lost 13th Company(they probably are but just bear with me a bit here), they have been heavily exposed to the Eye of Terror and were known to have a large number of Wulfen even before their disappearance. Something the Eye of Terror fluff made a point of elaborating upon was that the Guardsmen and even an Inquisitor who encountered the Wulfen? They thought they were dealing with Chaos forces because of the mutations they observed the Wulfen possessing.
If anything, I kind of felt that the Wulfen models were a bit too plain after reading the fluff again. They were described as having "matted pelts" and sharpened talons, stalking their prey like beasts.
You are correct on the Horus Heresy, but sadly, that's why I think these models are so bad. I feel like GW picked the most bizarre place on the whole spectrum of Wulfen to recreate in plastic form.
You should have SW who are only temporarily succumbing (so normal SW with bestial, enraged expressions). You should have marines who are starting to succumb (so, basically, the old metal Wulfen--marines who are still able to wear their armor and use their weapons and wargear), and you may have marines who have more or less completely succumbed to the curse (so, fundamentally Fenrisian Wolves). The guys who are so bestial and animalistic that they can't wear helmets or leg armor (or any power armor, it seems) should be relatively uncommon, I would think. How are they operating machinery? How are they fighting against opponents with ships, armor, and ranged weapons?
Then, worse than that, WAAAY worse than that, is the loss of subtlety and mystery. The Curse of the Wulfen is supposed to be these hushed secret that is unknown across much of the galaxy--and yet you have huge mutants that are clearly Space Wolves. Kind of hard to plausibly deny them, now. If the wulfen were more human, then it is possible to pull down your helmets and conceal your nature. If they are fundamentally wolves, then they can be claimed to be Fenrisian Wolves. But when you have immense, dog-legged werewolves, there's not much you can do but wait for the Inquisition.
It just takes a creepy, dark, twisted part of the background and turns it into a Saturday morning cartoon (much like Space Wolves riding Thunderwolves*). I loved Saturday morning cartoons. I liked Battle-cat. But it wasn't the 'grim darkness' of 40k.
*And, given the strong hints in the novels that "Fenrisian Wolves" are actually victims of the Curse of the Wulfen, what sort of douchebags are the Space Wolves that they take their poor, cursed brothers and ride them (or make them pull your sled).
*And, given the strong hints in the novels that "Fenrisian Wolves" are actually victims of the Curse of the Wulfen, what sort of douchebags are the Space Wolves that they take their poor, cursed brothers and ride them (or make them pull your sled).
@Yodhrin: remember though, as much derision as Murderfang deserves, the kit does make an awesome Bjorn, and the axe and shield Dread looks pretty badass...
two out of three isn't bad on that kit...
new plastic Bjorn is an improvement on my old metal Bjorn, though they are both great minis...
The "wolfman" thing is inherently appealing, but I'm not sure it works that well for 40K. I'd be way more interested in proper werewolves... look like regular (if slightly bestial) Space Wolves most of the time, go all Fenrisian when they get a bit closer to the enemy. Just think, GW, you could sell twice as many minis for each unit! And from a player's perspective -- you get a melee unit that is actually useful because till it gets close to the enemy, it is in human form and can shoot stuff en route.
I'm mystified how better pictures would make these look better. Sure you get a better view of the paint-job and get to see more details but that won't change the proportions and poses which are — to put it mildly — not that inspiring. :/
jah-joshua wrote: @Yodhrin: remember though, as much derision as Murderfang deserves, the kit does make an awesome Bjorn, and the axe and shield Dread looks pretty badass...
two out of three isn't bad on that kit...
new plastic Bjorn is an improvement on my old metal Bjorn, though they are both great minis...
cheers
jah
The kit isn't the issue, the issue is the fluff. The actual composition of the Logan Claus model, for example, isn't that bad, the problem is that the concept even occurred to anybody, and that when it did they weren't immediately laughed out of the room and told to sober up. The problem is that the guys who gave us Murderfang succumbing to his Murderlust and committing murder with his Murderclaws on the planet Omnicide as an idea, regardless of what that model ended up looking like, are now going to be responsible for writing down the "future" of 40K, which really wasn't supposed to exist in the first place but be a prophesied mythical apocalypse that hangs over the "present day" setting of 40K like the sword of Damocles to provide a general sense of impending doom.
Even if I liked the basic idea of advancing the timeline, which I do not, I would never trust this current bunch to handle writing something that grand without descending into unintentional self-parody.
Note, I do NOT want the Wulfen to fall flat - I loved the whole concept for them with Eye of Terror...but they've moved completely away from it. They seem to think that geneseed flaws result in LOL WOLF FEET. No. I liked the hulking, brutal degenerate appearance of the original Wulfen. I loved the fact they looked bestial with just enough to show that they weren't. They could have been a bit bigger or bulkier...but they certainly didn't need to literally become wolves.
Imagine they did this for Raven Guard...and gave us BIRD MEN. People would flip. The description from the HH books and background describes Corax's failed experiments as being grotesque and inhuman, with just enough to indicate their true nature...but BIRD MEN with bird feet and BIRD faces would look like they escaped a Saturday morning cartoon in the 90s.
Not to be rude, but remember that since the introduction of the Wulfen in the Eye of Terror campaign we got the "Prospero Burns" line of "There are no wolves on Fenris"; which has been expanded/elaborated upon to indicate that the creatures we see as wolves are fully succumbed Wulfen/failed Aspirants.
I haven't really kept up with the Horus Heresy(I find the novels to be really boring/dry at times and I just can't be excited for something where I 'know' the final outcome), but wasn't the whole "Raptors" thing shut down fairly fast after the mutations first appeared?
Assuming these are meant to be specifically the Lost 13th Company(they probably are but just bear with me a bit here), they have been heavily exposed to the Eye of Terror and were known to have a large number of Wulfen even before their disappearance. Something the Eye of Terror fluff made a point of elaborating upon was that the Guardsmen and even an Inquisitor who encountered the Wulfen? They thought they were dealing with Chaos forces because of the mutations they observed the Wulfen possessing.
If anything, I kind of felt that the Wulfen models were a bit too plain after reading the fluff again. They were described as having "matted pelts" and sharpened talons, stalking their prey like beasts.
But if there are "no wolves on Fenris", how exactly was Russ raised by wolves? Unless they've changed his fluff, he was raised by wolves until the high king sent an army to take out half the pack, and he retaliated, impressing everyone. Unless the Wulfen travel back in time, or being a Wulfen is a Fenrisian thing and not a Space Wolf geneseed flaw, the "no wolves on Fenris" is a mistake, or Russ's fluff had to have been changed drastically.
Unfortunately, like Schrodinger's Cat, Saturday morning, the confirmed Wulfen models became visually confirmed into something...rather underwhelming. So I didn't have but a few days of thinking of what they would look like. Only to see what at least 3 of them did look like.
While I agree that better pictures are required before writing these off (the shield guy may be promising), it isn't looking great.
The 13th are such a great concept, and are still my army of choice. Without dedicated rules, I just play them as SW. I always liked the Storm Claws and Grey Slayers anyway, but I think you need a unit or two of Wulfen to complete the visual. The metals from 2003 were okay, and these look a little worse so far.
Hopefully, the sprues have some great bits, and that a particularly nice Wolf Priest sprue is lurking around the corner.
kodos wrote: the question is, if the 13th returns, is this the first 40k EndTimes book?
It does seem like it; they've been more obvious about hinting that the end of the Imperium looms nigh.
We'll see if they learned from AoS on pulling the trigger, and what comes after.
kodos wrote: the question is, if the 13th returns, is this the first 40k EndTimes book?
As in everything gets wiped out like Fantasy? No.
As in the story is moving? Kauyon was probably first (Chapter Master Shrike), but 40K is on the move.
Calling it now. The 13th Company locates the Planet of Sorcerers and kills Magnus the Red, a True Death. Then they return to the Imperium triumphant. The handful of survivors join Ahriman.
kodos wrote: the question is, if the 13th returns, is this the first 40k EndTimes book?
It wasn't the last time they returned...
It's was actually, they just backed out of the result.
It would be interesting to see them re do the end times jn 40k though, as end times Warhammer did well commercially from what I've been told, doesn't mean they have to nuke the 40k universe.
End times was well received until the 3rd book, when it became apparent that what comes after is going to be very, very different (incarnates of the winds of magic, Sigmar returning and combined elves). Book 4 continued the trend as the Lizardmen fethed off on their spaceships, then Book 5 I'd where the hate became truly widespread.
Tl;Dr The end times was popular, the result wasn't
Warhammer 40k is GW's money pig. They offed Warhammer Fantasy due to its poor performance AFAIK. I doubt there will be an End Times 40k, but this Return of the Wulfen could be another of GW's efforts to move the time line by increments, not wholesale destruction (well, as far as entire IPs go).
kodos wrote: the question is, if the 13th returns, is this the first 40k EndTimes book?
It wasn't the last time they returned...
It's was actually, they just backed out of the result.
It would be interesting to see them re do the end times jn 40k though, as end times Warhammer did well commercially from what I've been told, doesn't mean they have to nuke the 40k universe.
Forgive me, but it does. Unless they're willing to substantially retcon or ignore most of the hints/prophesies/predictions from the fluff over the years, there's no way to put 40K through its own "end times" without the result being so radically dissimilar to the present setting as to mean it has effectively been nuked. The end of the Imperium isn't just the end of the Imperium, it's the end of mankind and, through that end, the end of Chaos. At best both would be given "dying race" status like the Eldar, with the disadvantage that human lifespans are so short you'd only have a handful of centuries of storytelling left, and it's already bad enough with the studio cramming practically everything of note that's happened since the Age of Apostasy into the last five years of 999.M41.
GW have written themselves into a corner - the 40K "end times" equivalent has been talked up as so apocalyptic, such an utter shattering of the status quo that they would only really have two choices; big bang, everything dies, fast forward a few eons and do Age of Sigmar 2; Space Marine Boogaloo, or else advance the story so incrementally and ineffectually that nothing would actually change very much. The first is a giant risk to take given the apparent reception of AoS and the fact 40K is their golden goose, and the latter rather makes you ask why bother then if you're just going to establish a new untouchable status quo where things are only superficially different?
I mean, consider the total minefield that just one aspect of the 40K "end times" would be; the return of the Primarchs. Word one, before they've even started, you're annoying Iron Hands players yet again. Then you've got all the vanished Primarchs; do they all come back? Will they have been changed by their experiences? Russ, as a nice topical example, has just spent 10 millennia in the Eye, so unless they're going to pull that "oh naw brah, time totes didn't pass, for him the Heresy was, like, yesterday!" nonsense the experience can't have failed to change him in some way - will SW players like those changes? What if they decide not to bring back Dorn or Jaghatai, are those fans going to take it well? How will Space Wolf players take it if Russ is killed off as part of the story? But then consider if they just decided to sidestep that one and not bring them back at all, then they're disappointing everyone who, quite reasonably based on the existing fluff, would be expecting their return. There's no path for them to take that doesn't piss off a lot of people, and that's just one part of one faction's fluff.
They could just about make the argument that doing such things didn't matter for Fantasy because so few people played it relative to their projections on how AoS would sell the losses would be irrelevant compared to the gains, but that logic simply won't work for 40K.
We'll see when we get the fluff in the new book, but I would suspect if they don't retcon the 13th Co returning as no longer being the precursor to Russ & the Wolftime, they'll advance things so marginally that we'll be at 10 seconds to midnight, rather than 30 as we are now, or 60 as we were a few years back, and do so in such a way that functionally nothing changes beyond people being able to play 13th Co. armies.
EDIT: And in addition to Rygnan's comments; it can be plausibly argued that the End Times was a commercial success because it's the most attention GW had paid to the system in terms of new models and the setting in terms of new fluff in years. If you're dying of dehydration even a stagnant muddy puddle will suffice, it doesn't mean you wouldn't prefer a nice chilled bottle of spring water.
Rygnan wrote: End times was well received until the 3rd book, when it became apparent that what comes after is going to be very, very different (incarnates of the winds of magic, Sigmar returning and combined elves). Book 4 continued the trend as the Lizardmen fethed off on their spaceships, then Book 5 I'd where the hate became truly widespread.
Tl;Dr The end times was popular, the result wasn't
I don't agree with that. Right from the first book they were ruining the Tomb Kings by lumping all Undead under Nagash - including the ones who despise him.
Well received =/= 100% liked, and them being ruined is nothing more than your opinion. Also, it wasn't "all Tomb Kings being lumped under Nagash" he fought throughout Nehekhara against those who opposed him, enslaving or destroying them in the process (see Settra the Imperishable) and also claiming the souls of the Nehekharan dead by becoming the God of death
jah-joshua wrote: @Yodhrin: remember though, as much derision as Murderfang deserves, the kit does make an awesome Bjorn, and the axe and shield Dread looks pretty badass...
two out of three isn't bad on that kit...
new plastic Bjorn is an improvement on my old metal Bjorn, though they are both great minis...
cheers
jah
The kit isn't the issue, the issue is the fluff. The actual composition of the Logan Claus model, for example, isn't that bad, the problem is that the concept even occurred to anybody, and that when it did they weren't immediately laughed out of the room and told to sober up. The problem is that the guys who gave us Murderfang succumbing to his Murderlust and committing murder with his Murderclaws on the planet Omnicide as an idea, regardless of what that model ended up looking like, are now going to be responsible for writing down the "future" of 40K, which really wasn't supposed to exist in the first place but be a prophesied mythical apocalypse that hangs over the "present day" setting of 40K like the sword of Damocles to provide a general sense of impending doom.
Even if I liked the basic idea of advancing the timeline, which I do not, I would never trust this current bunch to handle writing something that grand without descending into unintentional self-parody.
oh, i know where you are coming from, as i have read your posts for the last six months...
i wasn't specifically addressing you, so much as you gave me a convenient "in" for my observation without it seeming completely random, as you were the last one to mention Murderfang before i posted...
i just wanted to be sure to remind people that his kit also makes two good minis, since i see people slamming Murderfang, but not bigging up Bjorn...
fluffwise, they may have dropped the ball with Murderfang, but Bjorn was awesome in The Emperor's Gift...
just wanted to point out that his option is there...
I like the murderfang miniature, but I call it a spacewolves dreadnought. Any one else find it weird you can get a space wolves murderfang, but there's no way they'd do a Slaanesh rapebanger?
Geez GW, murder is still a brutal crime....
But if there are "no wolves on Fenris", how exactly was Russ raised by wolves?
The fist humans on Fenris changed their DNA to survive. The first fails build up the wolf population over 20.000 years.
So not every wolf on Fenris is a space marine, but every wolf can be tracked back to a mutated human.
In regard to the new 13th company models: i have a few old ones and like them better.
Reading about the 13th company returning DID remind me that i have about 30 Wolfen miniatures from Rackham i still have to paint. THOSE are impressive models of things turned into big wolves.
In regard to 40k end times.
I don't like the concept, does also not fit the setting at all.
There are a lot of forces in 40k, mankind is one of them and not on the brink. Much of the systems and universe is not even used, allhough there are several complete legions missing that could return (a 30k legion is more then all 40k chapters combined) and the other forces like chaos, orks, tyranids, necron are just about undestroyable too. In space you can also run/flee forever, what is what the Eldar have proven. And there should even be some squats rogue trading about, just as they did more than other humanoids.
A 40k end times is very hard to write into something fitting the background.
But if there are "no wolves on Fenris", how exactly was Russ raised by wolves?
The fist humans on Fenris changed their DNA to survive. The first fails build up the wolf population over 20.000 years.
So not every wolf on Fenris is a space marine, but every wolf can be tracked back to a mutated human.
Really? I took it to mean the colonists gave familiar names to the animals found, so they weren't actually wolves, but were called wolves. Like in that black library novel where the character kept calling one of the space wolves Bear, though that wasn't his name.
To anyone suggesting that the return of the 13th is equal to a 40k endtime: nah, 99,999% of the setting do not care for, what, about 100 more, slightly different space marines. Worst case scenario (and that is really worst case), an Inquisitor decide to purge all the space wolves, and dark angels throw a big party (I heard Dark Angel parties involve not dancing, not drinking, not talking and not having fun!). And the rest of the 40k universe stays basically the same.
Really? I took it to mean the colonists gave familiar names to the animals found, so they weren't actually wolves, but were called wolves. Like in that black library novel where the character kept calling one of the space wolves Bear, though that wasn't his name.
It is one of those mysteries in 40k, but the wolves on Fenris are no alien beasts (such as the kraken or trolls) and there are some hints that they were the first human settlers. But we know for sure that there are various stages a recruit can fail and spend his live as beast. If the Canis Helix turns too much into wolves, they live as such on Fenris. If they later lose control, the turn into wulfen and live there. If they lose control after their recruitment phase they are either killed or kept bound to their lord in their great company.
Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote: To anyone suggesting that the return of the 13th is equal to a 40k endtime: nah, 99,999% of the setting do not care for, what, about 100 more, slightly different space marines. Worst case scenario.
Worst case scenario is that this is the beginning of the next black crusade and that chaos wins this time (fantasy end times was the new version of the storm of chaos book and chaos won) but kills itself after and a new galaxy is born.
I gotta wonder if GW is actively trying to destroy their best brands now, with model kits like this. What happened to just making badass looking space marines that players bought millions of? No one needs wolves with snowballs or insane karate kid poses..
I don't see why 40k endtimes need necessarily be a bad idea. A big problem with the warhammer end times was that it waa rushed. A book focusing on the brettonian civil war and another on the orcs would have improved things considerably and left people a lot more satisfied.
With a universe as big as 40k they could drag the end times out for ten years. Games workshop needs to keep 40k fresh if they want to keep selling books and minis for the next ten years. As hated as the fantasy end times were, it sold extremely well and generated a lot of interest in the community.
kodos wrote: the question is, if the 13th returns, is this the first 40k EndTimes book?
It wasn't the last time they returned...
It's was actually, they just backed out of the result.
It would be interesting to see them re do the end times jn 40k though, as end times Warhammer did well commercially from what I've been told, doesn't mean they have to nuke the 40k universe.
Forgive me, but it does. Unless they're willing to substantially retcon or ignore most of the hints/prophesies/predictions from the fluff over the years, there's no way to put 40K through its own "end times" without the result being so radically dissimilar to the present setting as to mean it has effectively been nuked. The end of the Imperium isn't just the end of the Imperium, it's the end of mankind and, through that end, the end of Chaos. At best both would be given "dying race" status like the Eldar, with the disadvantage that human lifespans are so short you'd only have a handful of centuries of storytelling left, and it's already bad enough with the studio cramming practically everything of note that's happened since the Age of Apostasy into the last five years of 999.M41.
GW have written themselves into a corner - the 40K "end times" equivalent has been talked up as so apocalyptic, such an utter shattering of the status quo that they would only really have two choices; big bang, everything dies, fast forward a few eons and do Age of Sigmar 2; Space Marine Boogaloo, or else advance the story so incrementally and ineffectually that nothing would actually change very much. The first is a giant risk to take given the apparent reception of AoS and the fact 40K is their golden goose, and the latter rather makes you ask why bother then if you're just going to establish a new untouchable status quo where things are only superficially different?
I mean, consider the total minefield that just one aspect of the 40K "end times" would be; the return of the Primarchs. Word one, before they've even started, you're annoying Iron Hands players yet again. Then you've got all the vanished Primarchs; do they all come back? Will they have been changed by their experiences? Russ, as a nice topical example, has just spent 10 millennia in the Eye, so unless they're going to pull that "oh naw brah, time totes didn't pass, for him the Heresy was, like, yesterday!" nonsense the experience can't have failed to change him in some way - will SW players like those changes? What if they decide not to bring back Dorn or Jaghatai, are those fans going to take it well? How will Space Wolf players take it if Russ is killed off as part of the story? But then consider if they just decided to sidestep that one and not bring them back at all, then they're disappointing everyone who, quite reasonably based on the existing fluff, would be expecting their return. There's no path for them to take that doesn't piss off a lot of people, and that's just one part of one faction's fluff.
They could just about make the argument that doing such things didn't matter for Fantasy because so few people played it relative to their projections on how AoS would sell the losses would be irrelevant compared to the gains, but that logic simply won't work for 40K.
We'll see when we get the fluff in the new book, but I would suspect if they don't retcon the 13th Co returning as no longer being the precursor to Russ & the Wolftime, they'll advance things so marginally that we'll be at 10 seconds to midnight, rather than 30 as we are now, or 60 as we were a few years back, and do so in such a way that functionally nothing changes beyond people being able to play 13th Co. armies.
EDIT: And in addition to Rygnan's comments; it can be plausibly argued that the End Times was a commercial success because it's the most attention GW had paid to the system in terms of new models and the setting in terms of new fluff in years. If you're dying of dehydration even a stagnant muddy puddle will suffice, it doesn't mean you wouldn't prefer a nice chilled bottle of spring water.
Chaos breaks out of the eye, overwhelms the neighboring systems, imperium now sends massive amounts of fleets at them, chaos holds out and forms a massive beachhead in the outlying systems of the eye.
Wow.... No end of the universe and chaos wins the 13th black crusade, it also allows all the cool stuff to start appearing, primarchs, avatar reborn or something, vect, basically we can advance another 200 years of total war, the imperium has shrunk, the empire of the eye (what I'd call them) is expanding slowly, Eldar are trying to aid the imperials, orks are doing ork stuff, the Nid threat is getting worse, drawing the attention of the gods, tau discover true ftl tech through raiding a few tombships and see what the universe is really like, crons are now engaged in total war with the nids, dark eldar are doing there thong as usual.
So no, advancing post 13th crusade doesn't mean the end of 40k, just births 41k
I'm reserving final judgement on those until I see better images, but sometimes I wish GW would actually look at what FW is doing. The Gal Vorbak already use the general same concept to great effect, without resorting to Rob Liefeld levels of acrobatics.
kodos wrote: the question is, if the 13th returns, is this the first 40k EndTimes book?
It wasn't the last time they returned...
It's was actually, they just backed out of the result.
It would be interesting to see them re do the end times jn 40k though, as end times Warhammer did well commercially from what I've been told, doesn't mean they have to nuke the 40k universe.
Forgive me, but it does. Unless they're willing to substantially retcon or ignore most of the hints/prophesies/predictions from the fluff over the years, there's no way to put 40K through its own "end times" without the result being so radically dissimilar to the present setting as to mean it has effectively been nuked. The end of the Imperium isn't just the end of the Imperium, it's the end of mankind and, through that end, the end of Chaos. At best both would be given "dying race" status like the Eldar, with the disadvantage that human lifespans are so short you'd only have a handful of centuries of storytelling left, and it's already bad enough with the studio cramming practically everything of note that's happened since the Age of Apostasy into the last five years of 999.M41.
GW have written themselves into a corner - the 40K "end times" equivalent has been talked up as so apocalyptic, such an utter shattering of the status quo that they would only really have two choices; big bang, everything dies, fast forward a few eons and do Age of Sigmar 2; Space Marine Boogaloo, or else advance the story so incrementally and ineffectually that nothing would actually change very much. The first is a giant risk to take given the apparent reception of AoS and the fact 40K is their golden goose, and the latter rather makes you ask why bother then if you're just going to establish a new untouchable status quo where things are only superficially different?
I mean, consider the total minefield that just one aspect of the 40K "end times" would be; the return of the Primarchs. Word one, before they've even started, you're annoying Iron Hands players yet again. Then you've got all the vanished Primarchs; do they all come back? Will they have been changed by their experiences? Russ, as a nice topical example, has just spent 10 millennia in the Eye, so unless they're going to pull that "oh naw brah, time totes didn't pass, for him the Heresy was, like, yesterday!" nonsense the experience can't have failed to change him in some way - will SW players like those changes? What if they decide not to bring back Dorn or Jaghatai, are those fans going to take it well? How will Space Wolf players take it if Russ is killed off as part of the story? But then consider if they just decided to sidestep that one and not bring them back at all, then they're disappointing everyone who, quite reasonably based on the existing fluff, would be expecting their return. There's no path for them to take that doesn't piss off a lot of people, and that's just one part of one faction's fluff.
They could just about make the argument that doing such things didn't matter for Fantasy because so few people played it relative to their projections on how AoS would sell the losses would be irrelevant compared to the gains, but that logic simply won't work for 40K.
We'll see when we get the fluff in the new book, but I would suspect if they don't retcon the 13th Co returning as no longer being the precursor to Russ & the Wolftime, they'll advance things so marginally that we'll be at 10 seconds to midnight, rather than 30 as we are now, or 60 as we were a few years back, and do so in such a way that functionally nothing changes beyond people being able to play 13th Co. armies.
EDIT: And in addition to Rygnan's comments; it can be plausibly argued that the End Times was a commercial success because it's the most attention GW had paid to the system in terms of new models and the setting in terms of new fluff in years. If you're dying of dehydration even a stagnant muddy puddle will suffice, it doesn't mean you wouldn't prefer a nice chilled bottle of spring water.
Chaos breaks out of the eye, overwhelms the neighboring systems, imperium now sends massive amounts of fleets at them, chaos holds out and forms a massive beachhead in the outlying systems of the eye.
Wow.... No end of the universe and chaos wins the 13th black crusade, it also allows all the cool stuff to start appearing, primarchs, avatar reborn or something, vect, basically we can advance another 200 years of total war, the imperium has shrunk, the empire of the eye (what I'd call them) is expanding slowly, Eldar are trying to aid the imperials, orks are doing ork stuff, the Nid threat is getting worse, drawing the attention of the gods, tau discover true ftl tech through raiding a few tombships and see what the universe is really like, crons are now engaged in total war with the nids, dark eldar are doing there thong as usual.
So no, advancing post 13th crusade doesn't mean the end of 40k, just births 41k
But why do you need an official sanction from GW to do this? If you want the setting to advance, grab a notebook and a pen and write it down. But don't force it down the throats of the rest of us. It's a setting, and all of these "adventure hooks" are just a way to set up your battles. If you want timeline advance, make it up. Or set the stage, fight the battles on the tabletop and record results and let that influence your fluff. Nothing is stopping you from living out the End Times
kodos wrote: the question is, if the 13th returns, is this the first 40k EndTimes book?
It wasn't the last time they returned...
It's was actually, they just backed out of the result.
It would be interesting to see them re do the end times jn 40k though, as end times Warhammer did well commercially from what I've been told, doesn't mean they have to nuke the 40k universe.
Some of them returned at the end of Ahriman: Sorcerer, if I recall correctly. They had to fly through/past Cadian forces as they left the Eye of Terror. Or am I getting my books mixed up?
You know, I've come to realise that my interpretation of 40k is completely different to most people's on the site. I've never seen it as a gritty, down to earth setting but rather an over-the-top, toung-in-cheek sci fi black comedy that parodies science fiction tropes and 90s comic book darkness. To each their own, though.
In other words, goofy stuff like these wulfen appeal to me.
In CERTAIN cases, we're talking about people with axes to grind against GW. And it's easy to pull out the "OMFG these modelz look so OTTROTFL!!1!1" when 40K is by its nature pretty cartoony and OTT. *shrug*
People seem able to discern much more than I can based on that horrible pic, but from what I can tell, these models look far more like what I'd expect 13th company to resemble. The old models would have us believe that they could spend 10,000 years doing GOD KNOWS WHAT in a realm phasing in and out of a hell dimension and come out looking like regular SW, other than their wolf heads and hands and maybe an extra necklace.
kodos wrote: the question is, if the 13th returns, is this the first 40k EndTimes book?
It wasn't the last time they returned...
It's was actually, they just backed out of the result.
It would be interesting to see them re do the end times jn 40k though, as end times Warhammer did well commercially from what I've been told, doesn't mean they have to nuke the 40k universe.
Forgive me, but it does. Unless they're willing to substantially retcon or ignore most of the hints/prophesies/predictions from the fluff over the years, there's no way to put 40K through its own "end times" without the result being so radically dissimilar to the present setting as to mean it has effectively been nuked. The end of the Imperium isn't just the end of the Imperium, it's the end of mankind and, through that end, the end of Chaos. At best both would be given "dying race" status like the Eldar, with the disadvantage that human lifespans are so short you'd only have a handful of centuries of storytelling left, and it's already bad enough with the studio cramming practically everything of note that's happened since the Age of Apostasy into the last five years of 999.M41.
GW have written themselves into a corner - the 40K "end times" equivalent has been talked up as so apocalyptic, such an utter shattering of the status quo that they would only really have two choices; big bang, everything dies, fast forward a few eons and do Age of Sigmar 2; Space Marine Boogaloo, or else advance the story so incrementally and ineffectually that nothing would actually change very much. The first is a giant risk to take given the apparent reception of AoS and the fact 40K is their golden goose, and the latter rather makes you ask why bother then if you're just going to establish a new untouchable status quo where things are only superficially different?
I mean, consider the total minefield that just one aspect of the 40K "end times" would be; the return of the Primarchs. Word one, before they've even started, you're annoying Iron Hands players yet again. Then you've got all the vanished Primarchs; do they all come back? Will they have been changed by their experiences? Russ, as a nice topical example, has just spent 10 millennia in the Eye, so unless they're going to pull that "oh naw brah, time totes didn't pass, for him the Heresy was, like, yesterday!" nonsense the experience can't have failed to change him in some way - will SW players like those changes? What if they decide not to bring back Dorn or Jaghatai, are those fans going to take it well? How will Space Wolf players take it if Russ is killed off as part of the story? But then consider if they just decided to sidestep that one and not bring them back at all, then they're disappointing everyone who, quite reasonably based on the existing fluff, would be expecting their return. There's no path for them to take that doesn't piss off a lot of people, and that's just one part of one faction's fluff.
They could just about make the argument that doing such things didn't matter for Fantasy because so few people played it relative to their projections on how AoS would sell the losses would be irrelevant compared to the gains, but that logic simply won't work for 40K.
We'll see when we get the fluff in the new book, but I would suspect if they don't retcon the 13th Co returning as no longer being the precursor to Russ & the Wolftime, they'll advance things so marginally that we'll be at 10 seconds to midnight, rather than 30 as we are now, or 60 as we were a few years back, and do so in such a way that functionally nothing changes beyond people being able to play 13th Co. armies.
EDIT: And in addition to Rygnan's comments; it can be plausibly argued that the End Times was a commercial success because it's the most attention GW had paid to the system in terms of new models and the setting in terms of new fluff in years. If you're dying of dehydration even a stagnant muddy puddle will suffice, it doesn't mean you wouldn't prefer a nice chilled bottle of spring water.
Chaos breaks out of the eye, overwhelms the neighboring systems, imperium now sends massive amounts of fleets at them, chaos holds out and forms a massive beachhead in the outlying systems of the eye.
Wow.... No end of the universe and chaos wins the 13th black crusade, it also allows all the cool stuff to start appearing, primarchs, avatar reborn or something, vect, basically we can advance another 200 years of total war, the imperium has shrunk, the empire of the eye (what I'd call them) is expanding slowly, Eldar are trying to aid the imperials, orks are doing ork stuff, the Nid threat is getting worse, drawing the attention of the gods, tau discover true ftl tech through raiding a few tombships and see what the universe is really like, crons are now engaged in total war with the nids, dark eldar are doing there thong as usual.
So no, advancing post 13th crusade doesn't mean the end of 40k, just births 41k
So basically you want to advance the storyline while keeping everything pretty much the same. What would be the point?
They don't need a 40k Endtimes. 40k is already the 40k Endtimes. THAT'S THE WHOLE POINT OF THE SETTING. The 13th Black Crusade is Abaddon's last crusade. The one that ends it all. It's 2 minutes to midnight. Guess what happens at midnight? Spoiler alert: everyone dies. The End.
Wanna know what happens 200 years later? Nothing - everyone's still dead. Isn't storyline advancement fun?
kodos wrote: the question is, if the 13th returns, is this the first 40k EndTimes book?
It wasn't the last time they returned...
It's was actually, they just backed out of the result.
It would be interesting to see them re do the end times jn 40k though, as end times Warhammer did well commercially from what I've been told, doesn't mean they have to nuke the 40k universe.
Forgive me, but it does. Unless they're willing to substantially retcon or ignore most of the hints/prophesies/predictions from the fluff over the years, there's no way to put 40K through its own "end times" without the result being so radically dissimilar to the present setting as to mean it has effectively been nuked. The end of the Imperium isn't just the end of the Imperium, it's the end of mankind and, through that end, the end of Chaos. At best both would be given "dying race" status like the Eldar, with the disadvantage that human lifespans are so short you'd only have a handful of centuries of storytelling left, and it's already bad enough with the studio cramming practically everything of note that's happened since the Age of Apostasy into the last five years of 999.M41.
GW have written themselves into a corner - the 40K "end times" equivalent has been talked up as so apocalyptic, such an utter shattering of the status quo that they would only really have two choices; big bang, everything dies, fast forward a few eons and do Age of Sigmar 2; Space Marine Boogaloo, or else advance the story so incrementally and ineffectually that nothing would actually change very much. The first is a giant risk to take given the apparent reception of AoS and the fact 40K is their golden goose, and the latter rather makes you ask why bother then if you're just going to establish a new untouchable status quo where things are only superficially different?
I mean, consider the total minefield that just one aspect of the 40K "end times" would be; the return of the Primarchs. Word one, before they've even started, you're annoying Iron Hands players yet again. Then you've got all the vanished Primarchs; do they all come back? Will they have been changed by their experiences? Russ, as a nice topical example, has just spent 10 millennia in the Eye, so unless they're going to pull that "oh naw brah, time totes didn't pass, for him the Heresy was, like, yesterday!" nonsense the experience can't have failed to change him in some way - will SW players like those changes? What if they decide not to bring back Dorn or Jaghatai, are those fans going to take it well? How will Space Wolf players take it if Russ is killed off as part of the story? But then consider if they just decided to sidestep that one and not bring them back at all, then they're disappointing everyone who, quite reasonably based on the existing fluff, would be expecting their return. There's no path for them to take that doesn't piss off a lot of people, and that's just one part of one faction's fluff.
They could just about make the argument that doing such things didn't matter for Fantasy because so few people played it relative to their projections on how AoS would sell the losses would be irrelevant compared to the gains, but that logic simply won't work for 40K.
We'll see when we get the fluff in the new book, but I would suspect if they don't retcon the 13th Co returning as no longer being the precursor to Russ & the Wolftime, they'll advance things so marginally that we'll be at 10 seconds to midnight, rather than 30 as we are now, or 60 as we were a few years back, and do so in such a way that functionally nothing changes beyond people being able to play 13th Co. armies.
EDIT: And in addition to Rygnan's comments; it can be plausibly argued that the End Times was a commercial success because it's the most attention GW had paid to the system in terms of new models and the setting in terms of new fluff in years. If you're dying of dehydration even a stagnant muddy puddle will suffice, it doesn't mean you wouldn't prefer a nice chilled bottle of spring water.
Chaos breaks out of the eye, overwhelms the neighboring systems, imperium now sends massive amounts of fleets at them, chaos holds out and forms a massive beachhead in the outlying systems of the eye.
Wow.... No end of the universe and chaos wins the 13th black crusade, it also allows all the cool stuff to start appearing, primarchs, avatar reborn or something, vect, basically we can advance another 200 years of total war, the imperium has shrunk, the empire of the eye (what I'd call them) is expanding slowly, Eldar are trying to aid the imperials, orks are doing ork stuff, the Nid threat is getting worse, drawing the attention of the gods, tau discover true ftl tech through raiding a few tombships and see what the universe is really like, crons are now engaged in total war with the nids, dark eldar are doing there thong as usual.
So no, advancing post 13th crusade doesn't mean the end of 40k, just births 41k
So basically you want to advance the storyline while keeping everything pretty much the same. What would be the point?
They don't need a 40k Endtimes. 40k is already the 40k Endtimes. THAT'S THE WHOLE POINT OF THE SETTING. The 13th Black Crusade is Abaddon's last crusade. The one that ends it all. It's 2 minutes to midnight. Guess what happens at midnight? Spoiler alert: everyone dies. The End.
Wanna know what happens 200 years later? Nothing - everyone's still dead. Isn't storyline advancement fun?
You gotta remember that for GW 200 years isn't enough. I'd say 200 thousand years.
gorgon wrote: In CERTAIN cases, we're talking about people with axes to grind against GW. And it's easy to pull out the "OMFG these modelz look so OTTROTFL!!1!1" when 40K is by its nature pretty cartoony and OTT. *shrug*
People seem able to discern much more than I can based on that horrible pic, but from what I can tell, these models look far more like what I'd expect 13th company to resemble. The old models would have us believe that they could spend 10,000 years doing GOD KNOWS WHAT in a realm phasing in and out of a hell dimension and come out looking like regular SW, other than their wolf heads and hands and maybe an extra necklace.
These models look like crazy, feral MFers.
While what you say is pretty much true, I kind of see it like different artists drawing comic book characters.
Every artist is going have their version of specific heroes. They are comic book super heroes, there is going to be some OTT to them...Then, you have Rob Liefeld.
Lately, it seems like GW has tended more towards the Rob Liefeld side of sculpts and these new SW13th demonstrate that.
nudibranch wrote: You know, I've come to realise that my interpretation of 40k is completely different to most people's on the site. I've never seen it as a gritty, down to earth setting but rather an over-the-top, toung-in-cheek sci fi black comedy that parodies science fiction tropes and 90s comic book darkness. To each their own, though.
In other words, goofy stuff like these wulfen appeal to me.
Around 20 years ago this statement would be correct.
Modern 40k in no way resembles what you describe except for a few pieces of background here and there.
nudibranch wrote: You know, I've come to realise that my interpretation of 40k is completely different to most people's on the site. I've never seen it as a gritty, down to earth setting but rather an over-the-top, toung-in-cheek sci fi black comedy that parodies science fiction tropes and 90s comic book darkness. To each their own, though.
In other words, goofy stuff like these wulfen appeal to me.
40k used to have some intentionally goofy stuff like you describe, these days it feels more like they're trying to be "grim dark" but falling on their faces.
I think SW are a faction that has suffered from being fleshed out too much. Back in 2nd, they were just slightly Wolfy Space Marines, there was more left to the imagination and you could picture your army how you liked. These days SW have been fleshed out to be a wolf clown army, if you prefer the idea of gritty vikings wearing wolf furs it's hard to get past all the wolfy mcwolferson the wolf lord of wolfington lane riding his thunderwolf to battle while slashing with his wolf claws.
nudibranch wrote: You know, I've come to realise that my interpretation of 40k is completely different to most people's on the site. I've never seen it as a gritty, down to earth setting but rather an over-the-top, toung-in-cheek sci fi black comedy that parodies science fiction tropes and 90s comic book darkness. To each their own, though.
In other words, goofy stuff like these wulfen appeal to me.
Around 20 years ago this statement would be correct.
Modern 40k in no way resembles what you describe except for a few pieces of background here and there.
I personally disagree. I feel the current fluff is still steeped in the same old ridiculousness from the start, even if it's played more straight nowadays. I still feel a lot of the modern fluff and models are conceived with a sly wink. That's just how I feel though
You know, 'grimdark' means something else to me. To me it's not about being genuinely 'dark' or 'gritty', but rather said darkness and grittiness played up to illogical extremes to such a degree that it no longer really relates to an emotional reality and instead becomes humorous. Grimdark is seriousness brought to such an extreme that it can no longer be taken seriously , and I find that interesting. And the subsequent cartoonishness is just a result of this.
gorgon wrote: In CERTAIN cases, we're talking about people with axes to grind against GW. And it's easy to pull out the "OMFG these modelz look so OTTROTFL!!1!1" when 40K is by its nature pretty cartoony and OTT. *shrug*
People seem able to discern much more than I can based on that horrible pic, but from what I can tell, these models look far more like what I'd expect 13th company to resemble. The old models would have us believe that they could spend 10,000 years doing GOD KNOWS WHAT in a realm phasing in and out of a hell dimension and come out looking like regular SW, other than their wolf heads and hands and maybe an extra necklace.
These models look like crazy, feral MFers.
While what you say is pretty much true, I kind of see it like different artists drawing comic book characters.
Every artist is going have their version of specific heroes. They are comic book super heroes, there is going to be some OTT to them...Then, you have Rob Liefeld.
Lately, it seems like GW has tended more towards the Rob Liefeld side of sculpts and these new SW13th demonstrate that.
The heads and hind haunches are what kills me. I personally dislike wolf legs on marines but they aren't nearly as comical to me as those heads, maybe those are the worst ones, hopefully anyway, but those front two look JUST like Beastman from Masters of the Universe.
I will admit though that the paint scheme isn't doing these any favors. I have always HATED the space wolf colors post heresy, they aren't alone though, I also prefer dark angles black.
Edit, to add to the paint issue, notice the front two guys have dark colored body hair and ginger facial/hair. Idiotic.
kodos wrote: the question is, if the 13th returns, is this the first 40k EndTimes book?
It wasn't the last time they returned...
It's was actually, they just backed out of the result.
It would be interesting to see them re do the end times jn 40k though, as end times Warhammer did well commercially from what I've been told, doesn't mean they have to nuke the 40k universe.
Forgive me, but it does. Unless they're willing to substantially retcon or ignore most of the hints/prophesies/predictions from the fluff over the years, there's no way to put 40K through its own "end times" without the result being so radically dissimilar to the present setting as to mean it has effectively been nuked. The end of the Imperium isn't just the end of the Imperium, it's the end of mankind and, through that end, the end of Chaos. At best both would be given "dying race" status like the Eldar, with the disadvantage that human lifespans are so short you'd only have a handful of centuries of storytelling left, and it's already bad enough with the studio cramming practically everything of note that's happened since the Age of Apostasy into the last five years of 999.M41.
GW have written themselves into a corner - the 40K "end times" equivalent has been talked up as so apocalyptic, such an utter shattering of the status quo that they would only really have two choices; big bang, everything dies, fast forward a few eons and do Age of Sigmar 2; Space Marine Boogaloo, or else advance the story so incrementally and ineffectually that nothing would actually change very much. The first is a giant risk to take given the apparent reception of AoS and the fact 40K is their golden goose, and the latter rather makes you ask why bother then if you're just going to establish a new untouchable status quo where things are only superficially different?
I mean, consider the total minefield that just one aspect of the 40K "end times" would be; the return of the Primarchs. Word one, before they've even started, you're annoying Iron Hands players yet again. Then you've got all the vanished Primarchs; do they all come back? Will they have been changed by their experiences? Russ, as a nice topical example, has just spent 10 millennia in the Eye, so unless they're going to pull that "oh naw brah, time totes didn't pass, for him the Heresy was, like, yesterday!" nonsense the experience can't have failed to change him in some way - will SW players like those changes? What if they decide not to bring back Dorn or Jaghatai, are those fans going to take it well? How will Space Wolf players take it if Russ is killed off as part of the story? But then consider if they just decided to sidestep that one and not bring them back at all, then they're disappointing everyone who, quite reasonably based on the existing fluff, would be expecting their return. There's no path for them to take that doesn't piss off a lot of people, and that's just one part of one faction's fluff.
They could just about make the argument that doing such things didn't matter for Fantasy because so few people played it relative to their projections on how AoS would sell the losses would be irrelevant compared to the gains, but that logic simply won't work for 40K.
We'll see when we get the fluff in the new book, but I would suspect if they don't retcon the 13th Co returning as no longer being the precursor to Russ & the Wolftime, they'll advance things so marginally that we'll be at 10 seconds to midnight, rather than 30 as we are now, or 60 as we were a few years back, and do so in such a way that functionally nothing changes beyond people being able to play 13th Co. armies.
EDIT: And in addition to Rygnan's comments; it can be plausibly argued that the End Times was a commercial success because it's the most attention GW had paid to the system in terms of new models and the setting in terms of new fluff in years. If you're dying of dehydration even a stagnant muddy puddle will suffice, it doesn't mean you wouldn't prefer a nice chilled bottle of spring water.
Chaos breaks out of the eye, overwhelms the neighboring systems, imperium now sends massive amounts of fleets at them, chaos holds out and forms a massive beachhead in the outlying systems of the eye.
Wow.... No end of the universe and chaos wins the 13th black crusade, it also allows all the cool stuff to start appearing, primarchs, avatar reborn or something, vect, basically we can advance another 200 years of total war, the imperium has shrunk, the empire of the eye (what I'd call them) is expanding slowly, Eldar are trying to aid the imperials, orks are doing ork stuff, the Nid threat is getting worse, drawing the attention of the gods, tau discover true ftl tech through raiding a few tombships and see what the universe is really like, crons are now engaged in total war with the nids, dark eldar are doing there thong as usual.
So no, advancing post 13th crusade doesn't mean the end of 40k, just births 41k
But that's nonsense based on the existing fluff. The whole point of the 40K "end times" is it's supposed to be a massive apocalypse, the end of mankind, not a wee skirmish around a Chaos beachhead. Chaos are supposed to boil out of the warp and start a reign of terror, they break through the gates into the Emperor's throne room and overrun the earth, the Primarchs return and lead their warriors in a series of valiant glorious but ultimately doomed last stands, then just about all of humanity consumes itself in an orgy of war and Chaos, having lost us as a source of roiling emotional power, burn themselves out and the Necrons and Tyranids get to fight it out over the ruins. And the reason it is described with such staggering finality is it was never meant to actually be a storyline, just a nebulous future doom to give games in the setting of 40K some dramatic tension.
If they did do as you suggest, not only would it be functionally pointless(since if nothing will really change beyond adding some new units - they can do that now), it would generate so little actual real change/new content that the people who want storyline advancement would just start clamouring for more in a year or two, so they either give in and keep advancing incrementally until that sense of tension, of impending doom is gone, or they refuse and establish a new status quo barely different from the present one and we end up right back here again.
I just don't get why folk are so adamant about timeline advancement. If you want to play with Primarchs, that's what 30K is for. If you want new storylines to read and play through, buy the Beast Arises series. There's no shortage of "new" material in terms of story, and if you absolutely must resolve the central conflict of the setting then run your own "what if?" campaign.
kodos wrote: the question is, if the 13th returns, is this the first 40k EndTimes book?
It wasn't the last time they returned...
It's was actually, they just backed out of the result.
It would be interesting to see them re do the end times jn 40k though, as end times Warhammer did well commercially from what I've been told, doesn't mean they have to nuke the 40k universe.
Forgive me, but it does. Unless they're willing to substantially retcon or ignore most of the hints/prophesies/predictions from the fluff over the years, there's no way to put 40K through its own "end times" without the result being so radically dissimilar to the present setting as to mean it has effectively been nuked. The end of the Imperium isn't just the end of the Imperium, it's the end of mankind and, through that end, the end of Chaos. At best both would be given "dying race" status like the Eldar, with the disadvantage that human lifespans are so short you'd only have a handful of centuries of storytelling left, and it's already bad enough with the studio cramming practically everything of note that's happened since the Age of Apostasy into the last five years of 999.M41.
GW have written themselves into a corner - the 40K "end times" equivalent has been talked up as so apocalyptic, such an utter shattering of the status quo that they would only really have two choices; big bang, everything dies, fast forward a few eons and do Age of Sigmar 2; Space Marine Boogaloo, or else advance the story so incrementally and ineffectually that nothing would actually change very much. The first is a giant risk to take given the apparent reception of AoS and the fact 40K is their golden goose, and the latter rather makes you ask why bother then if you're just going to establish a new untouchable status quo where things are only superficially different?
I mean, consider the total minefield that just one aspect of the 40K "end times" would be; the return of the Primarchs. Word one, before they've even started, you're annoying Iron Hands players yet again. Then you've got all the vanished Primarchs; do they all come back? Will they have been changed by their experiences? Russ, as a nice topical example, has just spent 10 millennia in the Eye, so unless they're going to pull that "oh naw brah, time totes didn't pass, for him the Heresy was, like, yesterday!" nonsense the experience can't have failed to change him in some way - will SW players like those changes? What if they decide not to bring back Dorn or Jaghatai, are those fans going to take it well? How will Space Wolf players take it if Russ is killed off as part of the story? But then consider if they just decided to sidestep that one and not bring them back at all, then they're disappointing everyone who, quite reasonably based on the existing fluff, would be expecting their return. There's no path for them to take that doesn't piss off a lot of people, and that's just one part of one faction's fluff.
They could just about make the argument that doing such things didn't matter for Fantasy because so few people played it relative to their projections on how AoS would sell the losses would be irrelevant compared to the gains, but that logic simply won't work for 40K.
We'll see when we get the fluff in the new book, but I would suspect if they don't retcon the 13th Co returning as no longer being the precursor to Russ & the Wolftime, they'll advance things so marginally that we'll be at 10 seconds to midnight, rather than 30 as we are now, or 60 as we were a few years back, and do so in such a way that functionally nothing changes beyond people being able to play 13th Co. armies.
EDIT: And in addition to Rygnan's comments; it can be plausibly argued that the End Times was a commercial success because it's the most attention GW had paid to the system in terms of new models and the setting in terms of new fluff in years. If you're dying of dehydration even a stagnant muddy puddle will suffice, it doesn't mean you wouldn't prefer a nice chilled bottle of spring water.
Chaos breaks out of the eye, overwhelms the neighboring systems, imperium now sends massive amounts of fleets at them, chaos holds out and forms a massive beachhead in the outlying systems of the eye.
Wow.... No end of the universe and chaos wins the 13th black crusade, it also allows all the cool stuff to start appearing, primarchs, avatar reborn or something, vect, basically we can advance another 200 years of total war, the imperium has shrunk, the empire of the eye (what I'd call them) is expanding slowly, Eldar are trying to aid the imperials, orks are doing ork stuff, the Nid threat is getting worse, drawing the attention of the gods, tau discover true ftl tech through raiding a few tombships and see what the universe is really like, crons are now engaged in total war with the nids, dark eldar are doing there thong as usual.
So no, advancing post 13th crusade doesn't mean the end of 40k, just births 41k
So basically you want to advance the storyline while keeping everything pretty much the same. What would be the point?
They don't need a 40k Endtimes. 40k is already the 40k Endtimes. THAT'S THE WHOLE POINT OF THE SETTING. The 13th Black Crusade is Abaddon's last crusade. The one that ends it all. It's 2 minutes to midnight. Guess what happens at midnight? Spoiler alert: everyone dies. The End.
Wanna know what happens 200 years later? Nothing - everyone's still dead. Isn't storyline advancement fun?
You gotta remember that for GW 200 years isn't enough. I'd say 200 thousand years.
You know, 'grimdark' means something else to me. To me it's not about being genuinely 'dark' or 'gritty', but rather said darkness and grittiness played up to illogical extremes to such a degree that it no longer really relates to an emotional reality and instead becomes humorous. Grimdark is seriousness brought to such an extreme that it can no longer be taken seriously , and I find that interesting. And the subsequent cartoonishness is just a result of this.
Yeah that was GW at some point. For some time now they seem to take grimdark as really grim and really dark to the extreme, like they actually mean it. From my memory it started as pulpy sci-fi flavoured with british humour (RT era -> into 2ed), then with Tuomas Pirinen's work (which was fantasy based but influenced the design team) the perspective shifted into being a bit more serious but after than they just run with the idea and removed any balancing elements.
And now we occasionally get over the top stuff that seems to take itself too serious without winking in our direction.
While it's always had some sci-fi influences and 'flavour', 40k was conceived as a space fantasy setting, including space orks, elves and dwarves.
As a space fantasy setting that included influences from a miriad of sources, the authors were clever enough not to take their product too seriously, and it worked.
Then the late 90s came along, 3rd edition was released, and 40k embraced its more "Grimdark" tones. And it was ok for a while, because there were (mostly) talented people writing the story.
Fast forwards ten years, and the old talented writers are replaced by incompetent goons who make everything sound like cheap fan-fiction written by teenagers. The old dark humor is lost in transition, and the more Grimdark they want to be, the more they feth up. Thus 40k ends up becoming a sad and unfunny unintented parody of itself.
And then, in February 2016, these Wulfen models are released, as a pretty good personification of the current state of 40k as a franchise.
gorgon wrote: In CERTAIN cases, we're talking about people with axes to grind against GW. And it's easy to pull out the "OMFG these modelz look so OTTROTFL!!1!1" when 40K is by its nature pretty cartoony and OTT. *shrug*
People seem able to discern much more than I can based on that horrible pic, but from what I can tell, these models look far more like what I'd expect 13th company to resemble. The old models would have us believe that they could spend 10,000 years doing GOD KNOWS WHAT in a realm phasing in and out of a hell dimension and come out looking like regular SW, other than their wolf heads and hands and maybe an extra necklace.
These models look like crazy, feral MFers.
Although time is completely subjective in the Eye, so not necessarily 10k years to them, and it was described originally that Wolfen are quite resistant to the touch of Chaos, and therefore all of the 13th company as they are all touched by the Wolfen curse in some way, moreso than normal Space Wolves. Also not to mention that they are original legion marines, so could be seen as "more pure/strong" than standard Wolves of the 41st millenium.
Course that's all old fluff that could be retconned at any time.
Wanted to post some pics of the 13th's first release during the Eye of Terror campaign, I believe.
SW 13th Wulfen pack
Spoiler:
I want to point out the faces on these guys. I remember when they were released people didn't like the faces then, more wereape than werewolf. But the armor, I like. I could work with that model and add things to it to modify it more. The previews we just saw, they don't leave a lot for you to work with.
Storm Claws and Grey Hunters.
Spoiler:
Both units look good and have the right amount of cobbled together armor.
My Space Wolves started in 1st /2ndedition with the old metal terminators and marines. Great models, still hold their own among new models.
I added many new models through the years so the army is quite big by now. I like a historical overview within an army.
I also have old Wulfen.
I do not think i will have the new Wulfen. Don't like them.
Too OOT and they somehow mutated more than most chaos space marines. They remind me the most of the new AoS Khorne Chaos Warriors.
I would have liked it more if they had gone full werewolf...
I think the sprue breakdown will be the key thing for me. Those bits sprinkled around a larger squad could make something pretty cool looking. I always hated trying to convert the old metal minis so anything in plastic is a big plus.
I actually agree with the above. A sprue breakdown means we know what bits are going to be readily available for any Marine conversions. Two handed Axes are always attractive...
I think as pants as these look, if the rules are good they'll be everywhere. Just like the centurions. sale by overpowered rules, not looks. Glad I don't play space wolves.
loki old fart wrote: I think as pants as these look, if the rules are good they'll be everywhere. Just like the centurions. sale by overpowered rules, not looks. Glad I don't play space wolves.
I was just about to say the exact same thing, you can guarantee these will be the next "must have" thing in the 'Dex and will be seen everywhere.
Having said that I felt the same way about SM Centurions, hated the models and the fact they crop up everywhere because the rules are good but actually over time the models have really grown on me and I do like them so maybe these will be the same.
loki old fart wrote: I think as pants as these look, if the rules are good they'll be everywhere. Just like the centurions. sale by overpowered rules, not looks. Glad I don't play space wolves.
I was just about to say the exact same thing, you can guarantee these will be the next "must have" thing in the 'Dex and will be seen everywhere.
Having said that I felt the same way about SM Centurions, hated the models and the fact they crop up everywhere because the rules are good but actually over time the models have really grown on me and I do like them so maybe these will be the same.
I never really hated how Centurions looked. It was more the concept, a Space Marine placed inside a suit of armour which is placed inside a bigger suit of armour. Especially when Space Marines in bigger suits of armour already existed, ya know, Terminators, those things that suck so hard no one takes them
loki old fart wrote: I think as pants as these look, if the rules are good they'll be everywhere. Just like the centurions. sale by overpowered rules, not looks. Glad I don't play space wolves.
I was just about to say the exact same thing, you can guarantee these will be the next "must have" thing in the 'Dex and will be seen everywhere.
Having said that I felt the same way about SM Centurions, hated the models and the fact they crop up everywhere because the rules are good but actually over time the models have really grown on me and I do like them so maybe these will be the same.
I still feel that way about them. Too toy-ish for my taste.
loki old fart wrote: I think as pants as these look, if the rules are good they'll be everywhere. Just like the centurions. sale by overpowered rules, not looks.
Not so sure. I mean, 80% of GW's customers just buy the models to paint and collect, not play games with them. Right?
In most situations I would agree with the idea that the Wulfen will be great but in this situation I don't think so. Foot slogging infantry are overpriced, especially if they don't shoot and I don't see GW lowering the cost of Wulfen enough to where they would be viable. They would have to have fleet, probably a 3+ armor save, 2 wounds, and be able to attach a cheap Wolf Priest to give the unit 5+ FnP all at a cost of less than 20 points. I mean otherwise what's the point? You can get bikes now for around 20, they move fast, have a higher toughness and can turbo boost to take objectives. I don't see GW having the 13th company have access to drop pods and rhinos etc. Now maybe they can deep strike in, but I doubt it. Now, the list as a whole might be decent, but I just don't think Wulfen will be in the same category as Centurions (and honestly they wouldnt be that good if it werent for Grav guns).
Aside from the goofiness of the poses, one of the things I am most disappointed with in these as models is that they seem like they will be largely incompatible with the huge range of SM and CSM plastics. They don't even look the same size (though I could be wrong).
One of my biggest hesitations about the original Wulfen was that the background has them pillaging the armor and wargear of their foes to continue their fight. A plastic kit that allowed you to freely mix Space Marine armor and bits with CSM armor and bits would have been amazing, and would have allowed hobbyists to mix the Wulfen box with all their Space Wolf kits. That's not clearly impossible with this (given ONE PIC), but it doesn't look very likely.
sturguard wrote: In most situations I would agree with the idea that the Wulfen will be great but in this situation I don't think so. Foot slogging infantry are overpriced, especially if they don't shoot and I don't see GW lowering the cost of Wulfen enough to where they would be viable. They would have to have fleet, probably a 3+ armor save, 2 wounds, and be able to attach a cheap Wolf Priest to give the unit 5+ FnP all at a cost of less than 20 points. I mean otherwise what's the point? You can get bikes now for around 20, they move fast, have a higher toughness and can turbo boost to take objectives. I don't see GW having the 13th company have access to drop pods and rhinos etc. Now maybe they can deep strike in, but I doubt it. Now, the list as a whole might be decent, but I just don't think Wulfen will be in the same category as Centurions (and honestly they wouldnt be that good if it werent for Grav guns).
I would love some fluffy excuse for them to have deepstrike, and be able to assault from deepstrike (and then maybe return to reserves the following turn?). If pointed appropriately they could be really fun with rules like that. Plus it would give me hope that one day Genestealers could work the same way and finally function the way they would need to, to not be hot garbage.
sturguard wrote: In most situations I would agree with the idea that the Wulfen will be great but in this situation I don't think so. Foot slogging infantry are overpriced, especially if they don't shoot and I don't see GW lowering the cost of Wulfen enough to where they would be viable. They would have to have fleet, probably a 3+ armor save, 2 wounds, and be able to attach a cheap Wolf Priest to give the unit 5+ FnP all at a cost of less than 20 points. I mean otherwise what's the point? You can get bikes now for around 20, they move fast, have a higher toughness and can turbo boost to take objectives. I don't see GW having the 13th company have access to drop pods and rhinos etc. Now maybe they can deep strike in, but I doubt it. Now, the list as a whole might be decent, but I just don't think Wulfen will be in the same category as Centurions (and honestly they wouldnt be that good if it werent for Grav guns).
I would love some fluffy excuse for them to have deepstrike, and be able to assault from deepstrike (and then maybe return to reserves the following turn?). If pointed appropriately they could be really fun with rules like that. Plus it would give me hope that one day Genestealers could work the same way and finally function the way they would need to, to not be hot garbage.
Rune Priests, maybe?
I believe it was explained in some older fluff that the RPs actually are more prevalent with the 13th and those RP help navigate the warp.
So, as long as they have a RP in their unit they can deepstrike?
Da Butcha wrote: Aside from the goofiness of the poses, one of the things I am most disappointed with in these as models is that they seem like they will be largely incompatible with the huge range of SM and CSM plastics. They don't even look the same size (though I could be wrong).
One of my biggest hesitations about the original Wulfen was that the background has them pillaging the armor and wargear of their foes to continue their fight. A plastic kit that allowed you to freely mix Space Marine armor and bits with CSM armor and bits would have been amazing, and would have allowed hobbyists to mix the Wulfen box with all their Space Wolf kits. That's not clearly impossible with this (given ONE PIC), but it doesn't look very likely.
That is definitely something that we will have to wait and see on, but definitely a pass on these if they don't work well with other SW or SM kits. I don't really expect them to be compatible with the CSM kits due to none of the newer SM kits (from 2013 onward) being compatible with them either.
Da Butcha wrote: Aside from the goofiness of the poses, one of the things I am most disappointed with in these as models is that they seem like they will be largely incompatible with the huge range of SM and CSM plastics. They don't even look the same size (though I could be wrong).
One of my biggest hesitations about the original Wulfen was that the background has them pillaging the armor and wargear of their foes to continue their fight. A plastic kit that allowed you to freely mix Space Marine armor and bits with CSM armor and bits would have been amazing, and would have allowed hobbyists to mix the Wulfen box with all their Space Wolf kits. That's not clearly impossible with this (given ONE PIC), but it doesn't look very likely.
The Wulfen weren't described as pillaging the armor and wargear of their foes; that was something general to the 13th Company.
The exact quote is:
Lost in the Eye of Terror for ten millenia, the Space Wolves 13th Company wear pre-Heresy Space Wolves colours. During countless centuries separated from their homeworld, these mighty warriors have been forced to repair battle damage with armour torn from the bodies of their fallen foes.
It's kinda interesting to note that the Wulfen models actually had one that was bare-armed and quite a few of them had just the vambraces and pauldrons from the armor for their arms.
The Wulfen weren't described as pillaging the armor and wargear of their foes; that was something general to the 13th Company. The exact quote is:
Lost in the Eye of Terror for ten millenia, the Space Wolves 13th Company wear pre-Heresy Space Wolves colours. During countless centuries separated from their homeworld, these mighty warriors have been forced to repair battle damage with armour torn from the bodies of their fallen foes.
It's kinda interesting to note that the Wulfen models actually had one that was bare-armed and quite a few of them had just the vambraces and pauldrons from the armor for their arms.
Probably 13th company normals (GH, etc) are shown using mix of armor styles (yay BaC!) but the wulfen guys are too far gone to care.
Im guessing wulfen will get WS5 BS1 Wolf guard stats with d3+1 attacks rending and outflank
But I think the models are cool, just afraid they come in a highly individualized 5-man pack with the rules to have 20 per unit so that you have 4 of those centerpiece guys which would look awful.
sturguard wrote: In most situations I would agree with the idea that the Wulfen will be great but in this situation I don't think so. Foot slogging infantry are overpriced, especially if they don't shoot and I don't see GW lowering the cost of Wulfen enough to where they would be viable. They would have to have fleet, probably a 3+ armor save, 2 wounds, and be able to attach a cheap Wolf Priest to give the unit 5+ FnP all at a cost of less than 20 points. I mean otherwise what's the point? You can get bikes now for around 20, they move fast, have a higher toughness and can turbo boost to take objectives. I don't see GW having the 13th company have access to drop pods and rhinos etc. Now maybe they can deep strike in, but I doubt it. Now, the list as a whole might be decent, but I just don't think Wulfen will be in the same category as Centurions (and honestly they wouldnt be that good if it werent for Grav guns).
I would love some fluffy excuse for them to have deepstrike, and be able to assault from deepstrike (and then maybe return to reserves the following turn?). If pointed appropriately they could be really fun with rules like that. Plus it would give me hope that one day Genestealers could work the same way and finally function the way they would need to, to not be hot garbage.
Rune Priests, maybe?
I believe it was explained in some older fluff that the RPs actually are more prevalent with the 13th and those RP help navigate the warp.
So, as long as they have a RP in their unit they can deepstrike?
Rune Priest originally had a psychic power call Gate which would allow them to be removed from play then deepstrike- much like the current Santic spell. However, there are too many problems with that- 1. With level 2 rune priests you wont generate many dice and can certainly fail your roll, you could also have your spells blocked by armies like Eldar/Daemons, so then you are stuck running across the board again with expensive models that are one pie plate from dying. I dont think they will do the deep strike rule for them as that would make them too close to like deep striking bloodletters.
When the original 13th company list was around, no one took big squads of wulfen, they were very expensive, and died just as easy as normal marines, and shooting is even worse now than it was back then, bikes were far better and would be in todays game, unless of course they made wulfen 13-14 pts, that might be cheap enough for them to run across the board.
Gamesworkshop's model design in the past two years is just so... lazy.. nothing interests me anymore. Anything new at least. I miss the flavor and character and love put into a hand sculpted model. Their details are so undefined, geometrical, and rigid now.
Part of the reason I only buy from forgeworld for my horus heresy armies now. And the occasional dark eldar purchase.(my only 40k army)
Midnightdeathblade wrote: Gamesworkshop's model design in the past two years is just so... lazy.. nothing interests me anymore. Anything new at least. I miss the flavor and character and love put into a hand sculpted model. Their details are so undefined, geometrical, and rigid now.
Part of the reason I only buy from forgeworld for my horus heresy armies now. And the occasional dark eldar purchase.(my only 40k army)
I dunno, the Blood Angels Terminators and Tactical Squad are both very nice and we'll detailed kits. Same goes for the new Devastator and Assault Marine kits. I like the new Interrogator-Chaplain. The new Eldar kits and Tau kits are quite nice as well. The release with The most failings to me was the new Archon kit for DE. Looks terrible.
Midnightdeathblade wrote: Gamesworkshop's model design in the past two years is just so... lazy.. nothing interests me anymore. Anything new at least. I miss the flavor and character and love put into a hand sculpted model. Their details are so undefined, geometrical, and rigid now.
Part of the reason I only buy from forgeworld for my horus heresy armies now. And the occasional dark eldar purchase.(my only 40k army)
I dunno, the Blood Angels Terminators and Tactical Squad are both very nice and we'll detailed kits. Same goes for the new Devastator and Assault Marine kits. I like the new Interrogator-Chaplain. The new Eldar kits and Tau kits are quite nice as well. The release with The most failings to me was the new Archon kit for DE. Looks terrible.
To each their own, I guess.
Assault and Dev squads and BAtac squads were all great (though it gave Grav guns to the BA, a mistake IMO )
BA Terminators were far less flexable, with the heads merged to the chest plates and legs merged to the body making them more mono-pose. The Wolf Guard terminators and Deathwing box were much better done. They rteally should have given the BA terminators the third sprue to make tac terminators as well, and split out the merged parts.
Agree on Eldar and Tau kits, though the Eldar JEtbikes were probably designed 8 years ago, so were designed to be sold as singles and include the extra gun options. Then they sold them as a three pack so the rules gusys made the mistake of letting you take heavy weapons on every single bike. Would have been much better to have been made a 3-pack to start like Ork bikes or DE bikes. Could have made more efficient use of space and put a warlock or shioning spear parts on there as well.
The Archon and Succubus are great models with minor flaws- The Archon arms are badly posed, but that is an easy fix. The pose is great with a different set of arms, and perfect for an Archon with a blaster (why are Archons really the only HQ to be able to carry special weapons?)
Succubus is a great pose, but let down by the terrible rules for CC weapons and wych cult in general.
Mechanicus kits are good- Skitarii and Kataphractii and Magos are great, while the Kastellan robots are an acquired taste (I like them, they look more like DAoT robots, with the FW Castellax as more modern gothic recreations) and the Electro Priests merely OK.
The original Wulfen are a bit cartoony-wolf man, but are positively restrained compared to these new ones, and the entire direction of the newer Space Wolf models like the Draednought, Thunderwolves, bling on the Storm Wolf, and Grimnar's chariot.
Why is giving BA Grav a mistake? All of the chapters besides Space Wolves have it? And Space Wolves have Helfrost instead. Grav and Helfrost are the marines hard counter to MC and GC. What would BA have had instead?
casvalremdeikun wrote: Why is giving BA Grav a mistake? All of the chapters besides Space Wolves have it? And Space Wolves have Helfrost instead. Grav and Helfrost are the marines hard counter to MC and GC. What would BA have had instead?
Because some people wish Grav didn't exist for all the other chapters either
I always thought these would make good Wulfen heads. I always intended to mix the standard wolf armour with chaos armour pieces and then these for heads on some:
http://puppetswar.eu/product.php?id_product=7
I thought the same, they aren't very good. The arms are too skinny in proportion to marine like standards (almost scarecrowish) and the heads while looking very cool on their site, just didnt do it for me. I put them on a few models, then ended up, popping them off and putting regular space wolf heads, I think it was the snout wasnt long enough.
cause like the rest you can't give the blurry cover a break
No, the way Daniel-san, Son of Murderfang, is posed just doesn't lead me to think he will have much variability. Maybe he will have different weapons, but there isn't much one could change about that figure without making it look funny. The jumping legs don't lend themselves to other poses. It would be like putting the new Assault Marine legs on a Lascannon Devastator.
cause like the rest you can't give the blurry cover a break
No, the way Daniel-san, Son of Murderfang, is posed just doesn't lead me to think he will have much variability. Maybe he will have different weapons, but there isn't much one could change about that figure without making it look funny. The jumping legs don't lend themselves to other poses. It would be like putting the new Assault Marine legs on a Lascannon Devastator.
Plus, 'dynamic' (to put it charitable) mono-poses with weapon swaps seems to be GW's recent trend.
cause like the rest you can't give the blurry cover a break
No, the way Daniel-san, Son of Murderfang, is posed just doesn't lead me to think he will have much variability. Maybe he will have different weapons, but there isn't much one could change about that figure without making it look funny. The jumping legs don't lend themselves to other poses. It would be like putting the new Assault Marine legs on a Lascannon Devastator.
Plus, 'dynamic' (to put it charitable) mono-poses with weapon swaps seems to be GW's recent trend.
I'm expecting monopse for these as well.
One can hope against all hope that Daniel-san there is a sort of special wulfen lone wolf character, as it seems that the other models seem somewhat interchangeable.
AncientSkarbrand wrote: Strange to have a white dwarf cover pic so long before the rest of the pics are leaked.
\
It's happened only a few times. Early ETimes, AoS at least once w/Chaos, and there are more my sleep-deprived brain can't conjure at the moment. I DO hope very much that a much better quality leak comes out soon. I mean, hey, it's a bonus to get even this leak but from this pic...we definitely needs to see these in-hand.
casvalremdeikun wrote: Why is giving BA Grav a mistake? All of the chapters besides Space Wolves have it? And Space Wolves have Helfrost instead. Grav and Helfrost are the marines hard counter to MC and GC. What would BA have had instead?
Bloodshard cannons that shoot like nanobots that infect the blood of the target then like use grav stuff to be heavy too or something... just needs blood in its name.
Also I'm not really fond of these new wardancers/harlequin space wolves.
But maybe he just really wants to show off those frostwolf wolf ice claws he has.
Anyone able to translate some of the rules? Are the stats in a different order to normal? They look to be S3, T4, 2W, 3 attacks and 150pts for only 5 of them, so that sounds awful unless there's some amazing special rules in there
Anyone able to translate some of the rules? Are the stats in a different order to normal? They look to be S3, T4, 2W, 3 attacks and 150pts for only 5 of them, so that sounds awful unless there's some amazing special rules in there
Oh my. That's a much better leaked pic. Reserving judgment for GW video for 360 degrees of models, and I hope they do this for all 5 in the unit. I'm a fluff gamer so looking fwd to what current fluff GW assigns them in the WD. I guess if my SW army still hasn't sold in a month I can just add these guys.
Anyone able to translate some of the rules? Are the stats in a different order to normal? They look to be S3, T4, 2W, 3 attacks and 150pts for only 5 of them, so that sounds awful unless there's some amazing special rules in there
They are Strength 5 as I read it and as said they can move, run and charge - (sort of thing that would have been great for Wyches.....................) Plus FNP has been mentioned as a strong possibility
can run and charge, models killed in close combat can still attack that turn, re-roll faild charges
feel no pain,
options:
grenade launcher, two handed frost axe, 2 frost claws, hammer+shield, pack leader with 2 claws, stormwolf transporter
Wow. And they have the same base cost as Warptalons.
So Wulfen are effectively much better Possessed than any actual Daemon-possessed Chaos Marine... At least GW is consistent in giving our rules to Loyalists?!
casvalremdeikun wrote: Wow, 30 pts/model for a 4+ save is pretty bad. Yes they have four wounds and 3(4) attacks, but they are going to get shredded. Too bad.
Yeaah...
I'd hold off on the doom and gloom until we see how everything works.
casvalremdeikun wrote: Wow, 30 pts/model for a 4+ save is pretty bad. Yes they have four wounds and 3(4) attacks, but they are going to get shredded. Too bad.
Yeaah...
I'd hold off on the doom and gloom until we see how everything works.
don't worry, I will probably still get a pack. I am waiting for the other 13th Company assets like Storm Claws. They better make a plastic Rune Priest too, since the 13th has a ton of them.
casvalremdeikun wrote: Wow, 30 pts/model for a 4+ save is pretty bad. Yes they have four wounds and 3(4) attacks, but they are going to get shredded. Too bad.
I think you should, at least, play a game with some (whether by proxy or with the actual models- old or new) before you poo-poo them. They might do pretty well. The dice gods are fickle after all.
casvalremdeikun wrote: Wow, 30 pts/model for a 4+ save is pretty bad. Yes they have four wounds and 3(4) attacks, but they are going to get shredded. Too bad.
I think they only have 2 wounds. That's a German copy. W might not be wounds. It's in the order where Toughness usually goes. English order is: WS/BS/S/T/W/I/A/Ld/Save
casvalremdeikun wrote: Wow, 30 pts/model for a 4+ save is pretty bad. Yes they have four wounds and 3(4) attacks, but they are going to get shredded. Too bad.
Nah, W in this case is german for "Widerstand" which means Toughness. They have 2 wounds (LP).
casvalremdeikun wrote: Wow, 30 pts/model for a 4+ save is pretty bad. Yes they have four wounds and 3(4) attacks, but they are going to get shredded. Too bad.
Yeaah...
I'd hold off on the doom and gloom until we see how everything works.
don't worry, I will probably still get a pack. I am waiting for the other 13th Company assets like Storm Claws. They better make a plastic Rune Priest too, since the 13th has a ton of them.
Storm Claws were just Wolf Guard in Power Armor and equipped specifically with BP/CCWs.
The only reason I suggest to hold off on the doom and gloom is there's a few things of note in there. It looks like they get Furious Charge and Rampage, and Mark of the Wulfen is listed in the White Dwarf--which might mean they have added a change to it(they usually don't reprint things that are in the codices already for new units). I'm about 90% sure they have Feel No Pain as well(Verletrungen ignorieren). Also looks like they might have Fleet to boot.
The 2 handed axe guy, and the TH/SS guy don't look too bad. But the pack leader and the guy with the snowball/skull in his hand (left of TH/SS) are a bit meh. I can't comment on the fellow at the back, though.
I want to see a better picture of the guy with a skull.... not because I think it'll look any less gak, I just want to see if they really all Hamlet on him
The rules are not too bad, it's true that - FNP or not - they're a glass cannon, but at least you can give them an assault vehicle and being able to move+run+charge you'll basically have a guaranteed charge whenever you want. The comparison to CSM Warptalons or Posessed is simply insulting.
The models still look goofy and ugly to me, with unnatural and forced poses. I don't think that's any good considering this is precisely one of those flavourful units that I'd try to have as unique conversions if I were a SW player.
casvalremdeikun wrote: Wow, 30 pts/model for a 4+ save is pretty bad. Yes they have four wounds and 3(4) attacks, but they are going to get shredded. Too bad.
I think they only have 2 wounds. That's a German copy. W might not be wounds. It's in the order where Toughness usually goes. English order is: WS/BS/S/T/W/I/A/Ld/Save
ah, okay. That does not help them be anymore appealing though. Hopefully I am wrong.
With GW's rule of "we must only have artwork of the miniatures". I can imagine one will tire of seeing the pack leader wolverine adorned in every. single. picture.
For Millenia the 13th was last in the warp after they followed Magnus from Prospero. Now they are back and bring the curse with them. Fenris threatens a bloody war
Hmmm, a new campaign after only 3-4 months. Hopefully they keep this up. We are getting SW v. Daemons now, I wonder what will be next? Hoping for BA vs. Orks or Dark Eldar. They all could use a boost.
For Millenia the 13th was last in the warp after they followed Magnus from Prospero. Now they are back and bring the curse with them. Fenris threatens a bloody war
Or they're fleeing ahead of a 1KSons fleet in an effort to warn Fenris that they're about to be invaded?
These things just look...atrocious, and, even worse, the dynamic monopose makes them absurdly hard to convert or run large units that don't look like repeating copies.
And yea, they aren't helping the SW's already absurdly bad fluff any
Artwork is badass, still need to reserve judgement on models even though I will probably start a 13th list if the formations and stuff are cool, daemon lists wont go to waste either.
Man the old artwork is just godly though, the way they are just chucking guys everywhere, who gives a about weapons, we'll just use our hands to beat the heretics to death. Dont really get that feeling from these new models.
They are basically non decurion flayed ones when it comes to toughness. While they are more than twice as expensive, they are also 2W. Flayed ones seem to do fine enough.
They are basically non decurion flayed ones when it comes to toughness. While they are more than twice as expensive, they are also 2W. Flayed ones seem to do fine enough.
And then a Knight shoots the Rapid Fire Battle Cannon and 2W FNP suddenly feels really pointless compared to Flayed Ones
They are basically non decurion flayed ones when it comes to toughness. While they are more than twice as expensive, they are also 2W. Flayed ones seem to do fine enough.
And then a Knight shoots the Rapid Fire Battle Cannon and 2W FNP suddenly feels really pointless compared to Flayed Ones
And all the flayed ones get is a +6 reanimation. Just about as pointless.
And all the flayed ones get is a +6 reanimation. Just about as pointless.
How? They'll have double the dudes and at least some sort of save. Make that 5+ in a Decurion, too.
Overpriced footslogging Assault units are almost never a good thing. Even if they take an assault transport and have their Run + rerollable charge (which it kinda sounds like but unclear yet), compared to what's already in the game and is being used, they're pretty poor. Being a slightly better unit than Assault Marines doesn't mean good, it just means slightly less bad.
And all the flayed ones get is a +6 reanimation. Just about as pointless.
Not when they're half the price and sporting ubiquitous Decurion bonuses
The original point was they are as durable as non decurion flayed ones. Someone said when a knight shoots a double battlecanon, the wolves are pointless compared to the non decurion flayed ones. If either unit gets hit with 2 battle cannons, they are in trouble. I am not downplaying flayed ones, or saying wulfen are better. Just comparing the two to show that the wulfen are not crap durability. You all took that quote out of context.
Here is an easy comparison showing how people get the numbers confused. Cover the 3 and it looks like a 5, cover the 5 and it looks like a 3.
Probably in the minority, but I actually like the models.... Also, Toughness looks like 3 since you can see the same number for attacks, and their Champ gets 4. We will know for sure when its released though, so there is that.
And all the flayed ones get is a +6 reanimation. Just about as pointless.
Not when they're half the price and sporting ubiquitous Decurion bonuses
The original point was they are as durable as non decurion flayed ones. Someone said when a knight shoots a double battlecanon, the wolves are pointless compared to the non decurion flayed ones.
ah, apologies i missed that (different posts appear different sizes on my phone on this board for some reason and I miss things some times).
That said, I don't think I've ever seen flayed ones run without being part of a decurion...
It is all making sense now! GW is going forward with the End Times. That's why Daemon and CSM are not getting updated soon, they need to forward the timeline a little more before unleashing chaos.
Dark Angels codex hint at the Lion waiting for the end times to come so he can turn the tide, the Golden Throne is failling, Commoragh gates are about to fall. The Eldar and Harlequin are preparing a last stand againts Slaneesh. The Tyranids progress even further through the IoM threathening plamet like Baal. The Damocles Gulf is literally burning. Aun'Va was killed.
I find that GW is adding or talking more openly about the "End Times" since 7th ed. started in both the codexes and in the campaigns compared to the 6th ed. codexes. I'm calling next expansion/codex for the Dark Angels will fearure Lion El' J.
While the End Times are near, the Wulfen emerge from the Warp everywhere in the galaxies to fight alongside their brethren. Their rage infects their Chapter Brothers.
On the german boards there is more information. Still unclear though is the actual S stat
The Curse of the Wulfen rule - as rumored so far
The Wulfen influence other Space Wolves units - e.g. in 12" Blood Claws, in 6" Grey Hunter, in 3" Long Fangs - they gain several boni you roll for on one of two tables.
If the influenced units are enganged in close combat they gain buffs from the 'Slaughter' table and if unengaged from the 'Hunter' one. The table names are not the actual ones but loose translations from the rumors in german we just got in.
1-3 are light boni like +1 I or Re-Roll Charge ranges
4-5 medium boni (unknown)
6 Furious charge / +D3 A / The 'fight back after slain-special' rule the Wulfen have
As a long time SW player who loved the original concept of the 13th company, it is hard not to be disappointed by the models and dex.
First the wolf legs are horrible- glad they protected their knees perfectly with the armor. So many great sculpting opportunities missed, they could have had parts of their armor broken, or missing, each model different like the FW Word Bearers. I would assume they will be in boxes of 5, and set at $50, which means I will have to purchase legs for them as well, my only hope is they are the same size as normal marines so the swap will be easy.
As far as rules, elite infantry doesnt work, it doesnt matter how many rules you pile up- rage, counter attack, a random roll on a table (we all know how great rules design that is), the game is about superheavies, knights, and Surges. So they have FnP and 2 wounds- great , but then take a step backwards with a 16% loss in durability with a 4+ save- and they cost more than 2 marines with no shooty weapon and the same weapons are going to negate both their FnP and 2 wounds, you could give them 10 wounds each but MLs are going to kill them- how many people think Tyranid Warriors are awesome and they have 3. Wraiths are 30 pts too right, with a 3+ invul and better stats. I don't know why we are comparing them to Flayed Ones, they are an average units in Codex:Necrons, the Wulfen are the center piece unit of the 13th company, if they are bad, there is no reason to even use the supplement. They had to be an improvement on normal marines to make them useful and point for point, they aren't. Now, 20 pts would have been a good fit with 4+ armor and no shooting, especially if they kept the army list fluffy with no vehicles. At 150 pts, they are too cheap to be a diversion and even though they can strike even if they are killed in combat, they won't get into combat against a decent player with a decent 7th edition list.
And the table- (man I hate random tables)- so how do wulfen make Long Fangs better? Extra attacks in combat? So take a shooty unit and make it chances to reroll charge ranges and extra attacks- super.
I saw they had an option for grenade launchers, so are we to believe that when they went into the warp, they left their assault grenades behind and we need to pay extra to be able to assault into cover?
We dont know that they can have a transport for sure.
Also- why would you think they will ever get to combat? Is a rhino that much protection for them? If you are buying a land raider, you might as well put terminators in them as they are the same price more or less.
Or better yet, just take a unit of 5 Thunderwolves for 50 pts more (essentially the same as buying a rhino or drop pod) and you get better stats and better movement, not to mention, if I had to guess, adding a storm shield is cheaper on the thunderwolves than it will be on the wulfen, since you had to add both a thunderhammer and a storm shield correct?
If you add a transport and options now your unit is over 200 pts, I think Id rather take a unit of grav centurions right? Or maybe a Riptide.
Does anyone know how many formations there are for the SW? Is it just the base list?
Stormwolf would just add more points to an already expensive point sink entry.
@Styrguard Well they are like Nobz and Harlequin Troupes who also get rofl-stomped by superheavies but still have their place in an army against other enemy units.
Warhams-77. Do they have formations? No one really takes Nobs in units unless they have megaarmor though right? I just dont see any kind of niche for them that SW dont already have. I can take Terminators for around 30pts, I can take Thunderwolves for 40 pts- if I want resiliency, some of them get Storm Shields and they cant be instant killed by most weapons- so they are more resilient and faster and just as killy.
Now- maybe the book isnt supposed to be about the wulfen and you are better off just taking grey hunters and thunderwolves and both of those units are better in the supplement. If that is the case, great, I just saved some money. I guess I fail to see any advantages they bring over normal SW units.
"While the End Times are near, the Wulfen emerge from the Warp everywhere in the galaxy to fight alongside their brothers. Their rage while infects their Brethens."
I mean, that doesn't mean much though. 40k has always been "in the throes of the end times", the clock is always 2 minutes to midnight, Chaos is always about to take over, and the Eldar are always about to have their final moments of glory. That's kinda been the status quo for many editions.
If they want to make spacewolves challenge top tier armies, they will give wulfen charge from outflank, that will be awesome and totally not broken with all that D strenght around. Strenght 10 charging from outflank with acute senses?? Yes please
Maybe I'm a terrible person and should quit the hobby right away and burn my models and scratch out my tongue, but I personally don't see how a smart player can't get alot of mileage out of this unit. They aren't point and click, but is that really why we play this game?
If nothing else, the unit synergies I can see benefitting other space wolf units alot. Did you want another TWC or a fluffy, deep unit that's challenging to use and rewards smart play? There's nothing wrong with this unit, not everything is a fething scatterbike and the game would be incredibly boring if they were.
So much negativity. Seems absurd. The game is better the more diversity it has.
As a daemon player, I'm more scared of these things than TWC. I can kill wolfstar reliably and sometimes unscathed, but these things will kill anything I charge them with regardless of if I wipe the unit or not. With possible character buffs and relics and who knows what else, they seem fine to me.
Requizen wrote: I mean, that doesn't mean much though. 40k has always been "in the throes of the end times", the clock is always 2 minutes to midnight, Chaos is always about to take over, and the Eldar are always about to have their final moments of glory. That's kinda been the status quo for many editions.
Was it ever called "Endtimes" before?
And they should know that after AoS the term has negative connections
"While the End Times are near, the Wulfen emerge from the Warp everywhere in the galaxy to fight alongside their brothers. Their rage while infects their Brethens."
Requizen wrote: I mean, that doesn't mean much though. 40k has always been "in the throes of the end times", the clock is always 2 minutes to midnight, Chaos is always about to take over, and the Eldar are always about to have their final moments of glory. That's kinda been the status quo for many editions.
True, but the fact that they called it the End Times, capitalizatied and all in German, makes me skeptical and a tad bit scurvy about it. I honestly would not mind the story moving forward, but don't rip the universe completely apart to rebuild a bubble world.
Woo hoo! We are about to see a bunch of 40K stuff cheap on eBay!
In all seriousness, this is probably just some writer not remembering that End Times means something big now. Besides, Space Wolves refer to the end Times as the Wolf Time, so it probably doesn't mean much.
40K has been in the throes of End Times for many meta-years. Hell, they started the whole story device for GW. I think they are just advancing the clock by a few seconds.
sturguard wrote: Now- maybe the book isnt supposed to be about the wulfen and you are better off just taking grey hunters and thunderwolves and both of those units are better in the supplement. If that is the case, great, I just saved some money. I guess I fail to see any advantages they bring over normal SW units.
The Curse of the Wulfen book - as by the rumors - is updating the SW codex like Kauyon/Montka did for Tau and IG. So the effect of Wulfen on other nearby units in addition to some hopefully good formations and a SW-Decurion in the book could turn out to be a strong addition to the current SW books.
I believe that there were posts from Sad Panda or Lady Atia that said something to the effect of "no AoS-ing of 40k" with some pretty steady conviction.
Head Wolf Dude
WS4, BS2, S5, T4, W2, I5, A4, Ld9, Sv4+
Except for the S stat which is open for debate this is most likely correct. [Edit: S5 has now been confirmed]
The other rules are
- Rage
- And they shall know no fear
- Curse of the Wulfen
- Counter-attack
- Bulky (they are on 40mm bases btw)
- Acute senses
- Feel no pain
- They can run and charge in the same turn and also re-roll failed charge ranges.
These guys strike me just like Howling Banshees. Fairly useful in hth and ok stats overall.
Their big problem however remains, actually getting into hth in a very shooting orientated edition. Bulky does absolutely nothing for them.
Requizen wrote: I believe that there were posts from Sad Panda or Lady Atia that said something to the effect of "no AoS-ing of 40k" with some pretty steady conviction.
Their big problem however remains, actually getting into hth in a very shooting orientated edition. Bulky does absolutely nothing for them.
As to the models, not sold on them very much :(
Thunderhammer + Stormshield on the front models, maybe. You do not have to equip the entire unit. There could also be new psychic powers for Runepriests
AoSing 40k wouldn't be as bad as AoSing WHFB anyway. It's already a loose formation game, the points values are already meaningless and most people who care about balance have already left and the rules themselves are massively bloated and could actually use some significant trimming.
But yeah, I don't think it's happening. GW probably saw the End Times did well in WHFB and so thought the name would be good to use here without realising End Times did well until people realised they were actually killing the game and now it's taken on the connotation of being something horrible.
Their big problem however remains, actually getting into hth in a very shooting orientated edition. Bulky does absolutely nothing for them.
As to the models, not sold on them very much :(
Thunderhammer + Stormshield on the front models, maybe. You do not have to equip the entire unit. There could also be new psychic powers for Runepriests
Eh, probably no new powers. Compare the current SW book to Tau before Kauyon. I feel it'll be the same - formations, detachment, maybe some specific relics or something, and the new models, but not changing things that are in place and set.
Their big problem however remains, actually getting into hth in a very shooting orientated edition. Bulky does absolutely nothing for them.
As to the models, not sold on them very much :(
Thunderhammer + Stormshield on the front models, maybe. You do not have to equip the entire unit. There could also be new psychic powers for Runepriests
Again it depends on how much the storm shield/thunderhammer option is, if it is more than 20 pts, you are better off with a 50pt Thunderwolf cav with stormshield. I mean toe to toe the thunderwolf would still have rending and the thunderhammer on the wulfen doesnt scare the thunderwolf.
Keeping the negativity out, how in the world do you think an expensive infantry model is better than a Thunderwolf? If your daemons have no problem with the thunderwolves, they should rip right through these guys.
sturguard wrote: Again it depends on how much the storm shield/thunderhammer option is, if it is more than 20 pts, you are better off with a 50pt Thunderwolf cav with stormshield.
You attack whether you die or not, and if you get killed by something lower initiative you get to attack twice with every dude that got killed. It doesn't matter if you kill them, that's what I'm saying. Thunder wolves die and then can't do anything to you at all because they're dead. A thunder hammer on a wulfen is str10, isn't it? That instant deaths a TWC per unsaved wound, and they have no shortage of attacks. Also ruins a dp of nurgle without endurance which is my usual wolfstar or other deathstar hunting unit. I don't know, they just seem alot better to me than everyone is saying.
Of course most of my methods of killing them as a daemons player involve close combat so I may think differently because of that.
Warhams-77 wrote: For Wulfen SS & TH is +20 points per model. The leader cannot take it though (from what is shown in WD he only gets two 'Frost Claws')
Yes they probably wont add a new psychic discipline. Tau had some strong rules in the formations, some unit changes, a Decurion
Maybe GW will update Champions of Fenris as well like they did with Farsight Enclave in Montka
Tau did get their "not psychic powers"...............
They aren't much slower than TWC either, being able to run and charge with fleet. Especially if they have a character that always makes them run 6" or a formation that does this that we don't know about yet. The big downsides are T4 and not always active assault grenades. The special rules they get can make up for that, in my opinion, and so can characters, formations, psyker spells and even relics perhaps.
I don't see the 4+ save as too much of a downside. They do their work dead or alive, and are really only weak against str8 ap4 or lower shooting, which usually feths up alot of things anyway if you aren't smart about placement and protection. It would be easy to hide a unit of these guys behind blos or in cover at the very least.
They aren't useless and at the absolute worst they look really FUN to field and add depth to a space wolves list. To me this has more value than optimal builds.
AncientSkarbrand wrote: They aren't much slower than TWC either, being able to run and charge with fleet. Especially if they have a character that always makes them run 6" or a formation that does this that we don't know about yet. The big downsides are T4 and not always active assault grenades. The special rules they get can make up for that, in my opinion, and so can characters, formations, psyker spells and even relics perhaps.
I don't see the 4+ save as too much of a downside. They do their work dead or alive, and are really only weak against str8 ap4 or lower shooting, which usually feths up alot of things anyway if you aren't smart about placement and protection. It would be easy to hide a unit of these guys behind blos or in cover at the very least.
They aren't useless and at the absolute worst they look really FUN to field and add depth to a space wolves list. To me this has more value than optimal builds.
Take two iron priests on TWC with max wolves and add them. Now they are majority T5. Use the IP to soak AP4, and push the rest onto the Wulfen.
Ah, a way to shore up their weaknesses. However would that wreck their ability to run and charge? They could keep up with the iron priests if they can run up to them. I guess the conga line always works too, especially with wolves in the unit.
Okay, take the Thunderwolf cav with the Iron priests and you dont need to buy the wolves and the unit is toughness 5.
I am not saying they are worthless, I am saying they have no role which isnt already occupied by TWC. TWC hit like a ton of bricks and are resilient, which is essentially the only unit in the SW dex that can play with Tau, Eldar or Necrons because of their firepower. The wulfen arent more resilient, they are less so- at least by the initial rules. I would say you cant even add a TWC lord in as they wouldnt have the special rule of being able to move then charge, part of the resiliency of the Thunderwolves are Lords being able to tank with a 2+ and adding in regular wolves as needed, again, I dont think you will have that ability with the Wulfen.
Also, 150 points minimum is not cheap, so shooting units with str 8 will target them (Because I would suspect that no one will take them unupgraded, so you are looking at 200+ points max with just 5 models. Not to mention because they have such few wounds per unit, weight of fire will wreck them.
Currently the only use I can see for them is as a force multiplier for Thunderwolves. So you take a unit of them behind a unit of Thunderwolves to give the Thunderwolf bonueses. However, my issue with this release was I was hoping you could play something other than Thunderwolves or a thunderwolf substitute.
Warhams-77 wrote: For Wulfen SS & TH is +20 points per model. The leader cannot take it though (from what is shown in WD he only gets two 'Frost Claws')
Yes they probably wont add a new psychic discipline. Tau had some strong rules in the formations, some unit changes, a Decurion
Maybe GW will update Champions of Fenris as well like they did with Farsight Enclave in Montka
Humm so with a TH&SS that's 50pts a model that can put out 5 Str. 10 attacks on the charge with a 3+ invul plus all its special rules. Pretty comparable to TWC and, even if TWC are slightly better, will hardly be useless which is good. Plus, there are likely formations that boost this further in some aspect.
Kirasu wrote: Pretty useless compared to TWC.. 10 points more and you are better in virtually every single way.
I'm waiting to see the translation, but...
TWC can't get an assault transport.
Sure they can, it's called being cavalry and they don't have to pay for it :p
These guys are able to disembark from their Assault Transport, Run, then Charge all in one go.
So it's like Cavalry that aren't making Dangerous Terrain tests for Difficult Terrain.
Of course you are taxed with a pricey assault transport, ideally the stormwolf which doesn't some in until turn 2 earliest and since you aren't assaulting from rerserve your best case scenario is a turn 3 assault. Also, since you need a transport why on earth is running before assaulting a perk when they have fleet to boot? It should be fairly easy to set up an assault from a stormwolf.
I suppose you could take a LR but if your rushing a LR up every turn your literally paying 250~ pts for movement that T-wolves get standard. I know your in a LR, but don't act like anything that kills T-wolve3s from shooting won't nuke a LR as well.
They remind me of Khorne Berzerkers, You need a LR to make them work and it is rarely worth 500ish points to kill one thing with poor armor and low toughness lol.
EDIT: Of course I am not saying you can't make them work, I just don't jump at units that you need to tweak to make work. Especially when I am not thrilled by the models. I have been planning a khorne wolves army and wanted to use the Gal Vorak models from HH, I also wanted to try and make a sick Khornate flier from a storm wolf, so while I say this I may indeed use the rules for other models. It will be for other models in a themed army aimed at painting achievments though lol. Ironically.
Yeah, I don't agree. As long as they're str5 I'm more scared of them than TWC. And I don't believe they require a land raider to function. They require smart placement and threat saturation as well as support, kinda like a daemon prince. Thunder wolves are powerful but don't help the rest of your army gain power at all, so that's a niche for them that may become very useful once it's well explored.
If they're str3 they're a terrible unit.
We don't know enough to write them off completely yet, rules wise.
I understand though how people may not jump at a unit that needs list tweaks to be a competitive choice, or even a good choice.
There is no way that they are strenght 3. I can't believe this is even a discussion. Also, I don't think that they can attack twice if they get killed (regular attacks+ death attacks) only that the ones who got killed before attacking can make their attacks (a bit like when the Initiative of both combattant is equal)
This is the (quite loosely it seems) translated rule from a poster on bolter and chainsword.
Deathfrenzy: when a model is killed the model moves up attacks in the current initiative step, the rule applies even when the model had attacked, so that means the wulfen can attack twice if its killed.
I don't know for sure. I'm just operating on the assumption that guy knew what he was talking about a bit, because he speaks the language. Clearly he put his own words in there a bit.
It's the main sticking point for me that makes them worthwhile. Counter to TWC is high initiative instant death(or str10/d shooting). That just makes you get attacked twice as much against wulfen (if you're i5) and still opens you up to a full attack phase from the wulfen even if your i6 or higher, under this current rules interpretation. So you're pretty much suiciding the unit you charge them with, because there's gonna be a few thunder hammers in the unit and their attack Stat is high.
Of course they're weaker to shooting, but you can mitigate that. The reason I lend a bit of credibility to the str3 thing is this: why is a thunder hammer and storm shield only 20 pts?
AncientSkarbrand wrote: Yeah, I don't agree. As long as they're str5 I'm more scared of them than TWC. And I don't believe they require a land raider to function. They require smart placement and threat saturation as well as support, kinda like a daemon prince. Thunder wolves are powerful but don't help the rest of your army gain power at all, so that's a niche for them that may become very useful once it's well explored.
If they're str3 they're a terrible unit.
We don't know enough to write them off completely yet, rules wise.
I understand though how people may not jump at a unit that needs list tweaks to be a competitive choice, or even a good choice.
But TWC are also s5. I have been playing crap loads of tau lately and all I know is that missile pods will eat these guys in a turn of even overwatch sadly, let alone their turn. Wounding on 2's ignoring their armor is no joke. I do like that they still strike as they die, but, then their dead. I would rather not purchase units that do cool things when they die if I am going competitive. Rule wise they open doors for modelers though. They certainly make possessed look like trash too.
Is it too much to hope that GW might do something actually beneficial to Chaos for once, and perhaps give us proper God specific Lores for Daemons?
If Wolves are getting a ridiculously bonkers-good melee unit, it seems like we're at least deserving of having our psychic lores treated as equal to everyone else's for once...
According to Lady Atia over on B&C, Daemons are getting 10 formations. Hopefully at least one is usable, though I probably shouldn't hold out much hope.
Yeah, TWC are str 5 but can't swing when they're dead, which is what I try to do to them before they can hit me. Not an option against the wulfen.
Over watch is definitely a concern though, yeah. Put a storm shield or two out front when you charge tau. Might not save the day, but you don't need the hammers to kill tau anyway and the 3++ should mitigate damage.
AncientSkarbrand wrote: It's the main sticking point for me that makes them worthwhile. Counter to TWC is high initiative instant death(or str10/d shooting). That just makes you get attacked twice as much against wulfen (if you're i5) and still opens you up to a full attack phase from the wulfen even if your i6 or higher, under this current rules interpretation. So you're pretty much suiciding the unit you charge them with, because there's gonna be a few thunder hammers in the unit and their attack Stat is high.
Of course they're weaker to shooting, but you can mitigate that. The reason I lend a bit of credibility to the str3 thing is this: why is a thunder hammer and storm shield only 20 pts?
Because if i am correct I thought the hammer was named something else. maybe it's just a power maul and your assuming its a TH. Also, if you running TWC without fenresian/cyber wolves your doing it wrong (competitively wrong that is). Anything that would double out a TWC should be allocated to an 8ppm scrub wolf. Thats what iron priests and wolf lords are for.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
AncientSkarbrand wrote: Yeah, TWC are str 5 but can't swing when they're dead, which is what I try to do to them before they can hit me. Not an option against the wulfen.
Over watch is definitely a concern though, yeah. Put a storm shield or two out front when you charge tau. Might not save the day, but you don't need the hammers to kill tau anyway and the 3++ should mitigate damage.
Well tau present other issue, one being most of their units are much cheaper then these. So using them to kill fire warriors or drones is such a waste of points. At least TWC are more durable and can multi their entire line. After all your eating overwatch from everything anyway, may as well kill it all in one go
No reason they can't join the wulfen and do the same thing making them majority t5. But if the hammer is different that changes things, and if they aren't str5 that also changes things.
I'm advocating that they aren't terrible, not that they're meta-breaking.
AncientSkarbrand wrote: No reason they can't join the wulfen and do the same thing making them majority t5. But if the hammer is different that changes things, and if they aren't str5 that also changes things.
Now your foot slogging it though and your mixing rules. Just because they can run and assault doesn't mean attached characters can and if the unit runs, the whole unit counts as running. Can't fit cav in a transport.
Your not wrong though, if you want to make them work I am sure there are ways. Just keep in mind that the more they cost, the more they MUST kill. A unit in a storm wolf with characters is going to be half your army in reserves. Will look cool though, assuming you like those models or have alternative plans
Experiment 626 wrote: Is it too much to hope that GW might do something actually beneficial to Chaos for once, and perhaps give us proper God specific Lores for Daemons?
If Wolves are getting a ridiculously bonkers-good melee unit, it seems like we're at least deserving of having our psychic lores treated as equal to everyone else's for once...
According to Lady Atia over on B&C, Daemons are getting 10 formations. Hopefully at least one is usable, though I probably shouldn't hold out much hope.
I really, really hope at least one of them is our version of the Librarius Conclave or Eldar Psychic shenaniganry. The fact that Space Marines are better at summoning Daemons than actual Daemons is really kind of annoying. If anyone should get all these rerolls, easier casting, etc, it should be Tzeentch.
All campaigns so far - Sanctus Reach, Shield of Baal, Damocles - had at least two parts (three with the campaign boxes like Stormclaw), and this is called Warzone Fenris. Makes me wonder if there will be more than one book set this time as well
I would consider using TWC to kill fire warriors kinda suboptimal as well... particularly when there's riptides and broadsides hopping about.
If you're putting them in a transport you have already paid to get them in combat and don't need the iron priests.. if you foots log with iron priests and cyber wolves you also shouldn't really need to run and charge all that often, you still have fleet and can conga line a 12" mover out front to be the initial charger.
I reiterate: I'm saying these aren't useless, not saying they're meta-breaking.
AncientSkarbrand wrote: I would consider using TWC to kill fire warriors kinda suboptimal as well... particularly when there's riptides and broadsides hopping about.
If you're putting them in a transport you have already paid to get them in combat and don't need the iron priests.. if you foots log with iron priests and cyber wolves you also shouldn't really need to run and charge all that often, you still have fleet and can conga line a 12" mover out front to be the initial charger.
I reiterate: I'm saying these aren't useless, not saying they're meta-breaking.
I think we are in agreement and just arguing semantics to be honest.
Yeah, that seems to be the case somewhat, haha. I just felt like there should be a positive outlook on the rules present in the thread, as I think even with the little we know they show potential to be played effectively.
In casual games, they'll probably be quite fun and thematic, and should do just fine against more casual lists, IMO.
Automatically Appended Next Post: I would like to know if they can actually take thunder hammers or if it's a different weapon, and also if they are thunder hammers, why would they be 10 points less expensive on a platform that can swing it so many times, unless there was a drop in strength?
Ancient- I would agree with that, my point is, they aren't a unit that is going to put Space Wolves on par with Tau, Eldar or even Space Marines. Yes these guys get to attack if they die in melee, but they get zero attacks when shot to death. Being that they are expensive, they will be a priority target, its not like your opponent is going to let you coming running across the board without shooting them. The only way to ensure that, in a system where some guns ignore line of sight, some ignore cover, some are D, is to run them alongside something of greater target priority and the only thing a single codex wolves player has are thunderwolves. So instead of all thunderwolf armies, you may see a few swap out for a unit of these guys (maybe). Again, I was hoping for a list where grey hunters, long fangs and bikes come into their own and this doesnt look like that- now when more is revealed could it be better, yes, and that is what I am hoping for, but between the models and these leaks, things arent looking as good as I had hoped.
Experiment626- Ill trade you, you can have this list and Ill wait for the new Chaos rules to use with my space wolves. Sometimes not getting something is better than getting something subpar.
Agreed, they don't put space wolves in top tier by themselves. The unit buffs they hand out and possible formations involving them could though, and if that happens, at least they aren't "just a tax" and can do some work. They'll be a priority though, I agree with that.
AncientSkarbrand wrote: That's not incredibly logical though, if they were smart enough to do that and thought that was the case they should have just lowered the ppm cost.
Is there any other case where a weapon is discounted due to a drop in strength? How much is a power fist for an SOB if they can even take them?
While they didn't drop in strength at all, keep in mind that Vanguard Vets in the new Vanilla codex were given massive discounts on their specialist melee weapon options.
Perhaps GW has realised that entire squads capable of using things like power toys or hammers et all shouldn't be paying the same cost as regular characters?!
Hopefully it translates through the other MEQ books, so that otherwise unplayable units like close combat kitted Wolf Guard in PA, Chosen and such finally become a playable option instead of just being expensive shelf decorations...
Ok, so the double attack when dying is pretty cool. Especially when they have a 4+, so it is bound to happen. Throw a bunch of these guys at stuff you need dead like a WK.
For all the people concerned about end times being some AoS type event, I don't think so. The word Endzeit being capitalized is normal in german and used to differentiate nouns from more pedestrian words like verbs, adjectives, and other linguistic rabble. And wasn't some end times (or was it wolf time?) some bit about Russ returning or something. I think that's just a justification for them (again?) coming back (ending their EOT tour) and not really about ending everything.
Ok I've been watching this thread for a little bit and can say while I think the Wulfen Alpha looks idiotic jumping down from whatever it jumped off of, the rest really appeal to my inner 10 year old. For what we know they're basically Death Co on permanent charge buff for str and init with access to some cheap upgrades.
While yes it looks like they're going to have a rough time getting into CC like any assault unit does in this current meta. But there's ways around that, finding what works is more dependent on your local meta.
To me the largest question is the Frost Claws and how are they different from Wolf Claws and are they going to be worth taking for something besides one extra attack. I mean if I'd hazard a guess they'll be Str+1 Ap 2/3 with Shred or Fleshbane. The grenade launcher is another question and for 2pts a model I'd take it for games where I don't need a dedicated transport to get at my opponent. The frost axe however IMO is a waste of points when you take into consideration the access to a cheap TH/SS for only 12pts more than it.
With their current rules translation they're blatantly a suicide unit that seems to be fashioned to wreck death stars than anything else. The only thing this unit has to worry about is being shot down before closing the distance, which lets be honest its a huge concern for them. However if they can get in CC this unit no longer care about losses as no matter how many get wacked they'll still get all their hits in and again depending on the frost claw stats they should be wounding most units on a 3+
...
). If these models have armoured torsos rather than muscled torsos the arms might be multipose rather than monopose. But we'll see. Even if they are I don't think it's going to make me love them.
about weapons, we'll just use our hands to beat the heretics to death. Dont really get that feeling from these new models.
