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2016/01/25 15:45:31
Subject: Space Wolves - Preorder Feb 6 2016 - The 13th Company Returns
You know, I've come to realise that my interpretation of 40k is completely different to most people's on the site. I've never seen it as a gritty, down to earth setting but rather an over-the-top, toung-in-cheek sci fi black comedy that parodies science fiction tropes and 90s comic book darkness. To each their own, though.
In other words, goofy stuff like these wulfen appeal to me.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2016/01/25 15:58:39
2016/01/25 16:06:52
Subject: Space Wolves - Preorder Feb 6 2016 - The 13th Company Returns
In CERTAIN cases, we're talking about people with axes to grind against GW. And it's easy to pull out the "OMFG these modelz look so OTTROTFL!!1!1" when 40K is by its nature pretty cartoony and OTT. *shrug*
People seem able to discern much more than I can based on that horrible pic, but from what I can tell, these models look far more like what I'd expect 13th company to resemble. The old models would have us believe that they could spend 10,000 years doing GOD KNOWS WHAT in a realm phasing in and out of a hell dimension and come out looking like regular SW, other than their wolf heads and hands and maybe an extra necklace.
kodos wrote: the question is, if the 13th returns, is this the first 40k EndTimes book?
It wasn't the last time they returned...
It's was actually, they just backed out of the result.
It would be interesting to see them re do the end times jn 40k though, as end times Warhammer did well commercially from what I've been told, doesn't mean they have to nuke the 40k universe.
Forgive me, but it does. Unless they're willing to substantially retcon or ignore most of the hints/prophesies/predictions from the fluff over the years, there's no way to put 40K through its own "end times" without the result being so radically dissimilar to the present setting as to mean it has effectively been nuked. The end of the Imperium isn't just the end of the Imperium, it's the end of mankind and, through that end, the end of Chaos. At best both would be given "dying race" status like the Eldar, with the disadvantage that human lifespans are so short you'd only have a handful of centuries of storytelling left, and it's already bad enough with the studio cramming practically everything of note that's happened since the Age of Apostasy into the last five years of 999.M41.
GW have written themselves into a corner - the 40K "end times" equivalent has been talked up as so apocalyptic, such an utter shattering of the status quo that they would only really have two choices; big bang, everything dies, fast forward a few eons and do Age of Sigmar 2; Space Marine Boogaloo, or else advance the story so incrementally and ineffectually that nothing would actually change very much. The first is a giant risk to take given the apparent reception of AoS and the fact 40K is their golden goose, and the latter rather makes you ask why bother then if you're just going to establish a new untouchable status quo where things are only superficially different?
I mean, consider the total minefield that just one aspect of the 40K "end times" would be; the return of the Primarchs. Word one, before they've even started, you're annoying Iron Hands players yet again. Then you've got all the vanished Primarchs; do they all come back? Will they have been changed by their experiences? Russ, as a nice topical example, has just spent 10 millennia in the Eye, so unless they're going to pull that "oh naw brah, time totes didn't pass, for him the Heresy was, like, yesterday!" nonsense the experience can't have failed to change him in some way - will SW players like those changes? What if they decide not to bring back Dorn or Jaghatai, are those fans going to take it well? How will Space Wolf players take it if Russ is killed off as part of the story? But then consider if they just decided to sidestep that one and not bring them back at all, then they're disappointing everyone who, quite reasonably based on the existing fluff, would be expecting their return. There's no path for them to take that doesn't piss off a lot of people, and that's just one part of one faction's fluff.
They could just about make the argument that doing such things didn't matter for Fantasy because so few people played it relative to their projections on how AoS would sell the losses would be irrelevant compared to the gains, but that logic simply won't work for 40K.
We'll see when we get the fluff in the new book, but I would suspect if they don't retcon the 13th Co returning as no longer being the precursor to Russ & the Wolftime, they'll advance things so marginally that we'll be at 10 seconds to midnight, rather than 30 as we are now, or 60 as we were a few years back, and do so in such a way that functionally nothing changes beyond people being able to play 13th Co. armies.
EDIT: And in addition to Rygnan's comments; it can be plausibly argued that the End Times was a commercial success because it's the most attention GW had paid to the system in terms of new models and the setting in terms of new fluff in years. If you're dying of dehydration even a stagnant muddy puddle will suffice, it doesn't mean you wouldn't prefer a nice chilled bottle of spring water.
Chaos breaks out of the eye, overwhelms the neighboring systems, imperium now sends massive amounts of fleets at them, chaos holds out and forms a massive beachhead in the outlying systems of the eye.
Wow.... No end of the universe and chaos wins the 13th black crusade, it also allows all the cool stuff to start appearing, primarchs, avatar reborn or something, vect, basically we can advance another 200 years of total war, the imperium has shrunk, the empire of the eye (what I'd call them) is expanding slowly, Eldar are trying to aid the imperials, orks are doing ork stuff, the Nid threat is getting worse, drawing the attention of the gods, tau discover true ftl tech through raiding a few tombships and see what the universe is really like, crons are now engaged in total war with the nids, dark eldar are doing there thong as usual.
So no, advancing post 13th crusade doesn't mean the end of 40k, just births 41k
So basically you want to advance the storyline while keeping everything pretty much the same. What would be the point?
They don't need a 40k Endtimes. 40k is already the 40k Endtimes. THAT'S THE WHOLE POINT OF THE SETTING. The 13th Black Crusade is Abaddon's last crusade. The one that ends it all. It's 2 minutes to midnight. Guess what happens at midnight? Spoiler alert: everyone dies. The End.
Wanna know what happens 200 years later? Nothing - everyone's still dead. Isn't storyline advancement fun?
2016/01/25 16:24:58
Subject: Space Wolves - Preorder Feb 6 2016 - The 13th Company Returns
kodos wrote: the question is, if the 13th returns, is this the first 40k EndTimes book?
It wasn't the last time they returned...
It's was actually, they just backed out of the result.
It would be interesting to see them re do the end times jn 40k though, as end times Warhammer did well commercially from what I've been told, doesn't mean they have to nuke the 40k universe.
Forgive me, but it does. Unless they're willing to substantially retcon or ignore most of the hints/prophesies/predictions from the fluff over the years, there's no way to put 40K through its own "end times" without the result being so radically dissimilar to the present setting as to mean it has effectively been nuked. The end of the Imperium isn't just the end of the Imperium, it's the end of mankind and, through that end, the end of Chaos. At best both would be given "dying race" status like the Eldar, with the disadvantage that human lifespans are so short you'd only have a handful of centuries of storytelling left, and it's already bad enough with the studio cramming practically everything of note that's happened since the Age of Apostasy into the last five years of 999.M41.
GW have written themselves into a corner - the 40K "end times" equivalent has been talked up as so apocalyptic, such an utter shattering of the status quo that they would only really have two choices; big bang, everything dies, fast forward a few eons and do Age of Sigmar 2; Space Marine Boogaloo, or else advance the story so incrementally and ineffectually that nothing would actually change very much. The first is a giant risk to take given the apparent reception of AoS and the fact 40K is their golden goose, and the latter rather makes you ask why bother then if you're just going to establish a new untouchable status quo where things are only superficially different?
I mean, consider the total minefield that just one aspect of the 40K "end times" would be; the return of the Primarchs. Word one, before they've even started, you're annoying Iron Hands players yet again. Then you've got all the vanished Primarchs; do they all come back? Will they have been changed by their experiences? Russ, as a nice topical example, has just spent 10 millennia in the Eye, so unless they're going to pull that "oh naw brah, time totes didn't pass, for him the Heresy was, like, yesterday!" nonsense the experience can't have failed to change him in some way - will SW players like those changes? What if they decide not to bring back Dorn or Jaghatai, are those fans going to take it well? How will Space Wolf players take it if Russ is killed off as part of the story? But then consider if they just decided to sidestep that one and not bring them back at all, then they're disappointing everyone who, quite reasonably based on the existing fluff, would be expecting their return. There's no path for them to take that doesn't piss off a lot of people, and that's just one part of one faction's fluff.
They could just about make the argument that doing such things didn't matter for Fantasy because so few people played it relative to their projections on how AoS would sell the losses would be irrelevant compared to the gains, but that logic simply won't work for 40K.
We'll see when we get the fluff in the new book, but I would suspect if they don't retcon the 13th Co returning as no longer being the precursor to Russ & the Wolftime, they'll advance things so marginally that we'll be at 10 seconds to midnight, rather than 30 as we are now, or 60 as we were a few years back, and do so in such a way that functionally nothing changes beyond people being able to play 13th Co. armies.
EDIT: And in addition to Rygnan's comments; it can be plausibly argued that the End Times was a commercial success because it's the most attention GW had paid to the system in terms of new models and the setting in terms of new fluff in years. If you're dying of dehydration even a stagnant muddy puddle will suffice, it doesn't mean you wouldn't prefer a nice chilled bottle of spring water.
Chaos breaks out of the eye, overwhelms the neighboring systems, imperium now sends massive amounts of fleets at them, chaos holds out and forms a massive beachhead in the outlying systems of the eye.
Wow.... No end of the universe and chaos wins the 13th black crusade, it also allows all the cool stuff to start appearing, primarchs, avatar reborn or something, vect, basically we can advance another 200 years of total war, the imperium has shrunk, the empire of the eye (what I'd call them) is expanding slowly, Eldar are trying to aid the imperials, orks are doing ork stuff, the Nid threat is getting worse, drawing the attention of the gods, tau discover true ftl tech through raiding a few tombships and see what the universe is really like, crons are now engaged in total war with the nids, dark eldar are doing there thong as usual.
So no, advancing post 13th crusade doesn't mean the end of 40k, just births 41k
So basically you want to advance the storyline while keeping everything pretty much the same. What would be the point?
They don't need a 40k Endtimes. 40k is already the 40k Endtimes. THAT'S THE WHOLE POINT OF THE SETTING. The 13th Black Crusade is Abaddon's last crusade. The one that ends it all. It's 2 minutes to midnight. Guess what happens at midnight? Spoiler alert: everyone dies. The End.
Wanna know what happens 200 years later? Nothing - everyone's still dead. Isn't storyline advancement fun?
You gotta remember that for GW 200 years isn't enough. I'd say 200 thousand years.
"Let them that are happy talk of piety; we that would work our adversary must take no account of laws."http://back2basing.blogspot.pt/
2016/01/25 16:32:28
Subject: Space Wolves - Preorder Feb 6 2016 - The 13th Company Returns
gorgon wrote: In CERTAIN cases, we're talking about people with axes to grind against GW. And it's easy to pull out the "OMFG these modelz look so OTTROTFL!!1!1" when 40K is by its nature pretty cartoony and OTT. *shrug*
People seem able to discern much more than I can based on that horrible pic, but from what I can tell, these models look far more like what I'd expect 13th company to resemble. The old models would have us believe that they could spend 10,000 years doing GOD KNOWS WHAT in a realm phasing in and out of a hell dimension and come out looking like regular SW, other than their wolf heads and hands and maybe an extra necklace.
These models look like crazy, feral MFers.
While what you say is pretty much true, I kind of see it like different artists drawing comic book characters.
Every artist is going have their version of specific heroes. They are comic book super heroes, there is going to be some OTT to them...Then, you have Rob Liefeld.
Lately, it seems like GW has tended more towards the Rob Liefeld side of sculpts and these new SW13th demonstrate that.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2016/01/25 16:33:02
I'm back!
2016/01/25 17:42:50
Subject: Space Wolves - Preorder Feb 6 2016 - The 13th Company Returns
nudibranch wrote: You know, I've come to realise that my interpretation of 40k is completely different to most people's on the site. I've never seen it as a gritty, down to earth setting but rather an over-the-top, toung-in-cheek sci fi black comedy that parodies science fiction tropes and 90s comic book darkness. To each their own, though.
In other words, goofy stuff like these wulfen appeal to me.
Around 20 years ago this statement would be correct.
Modern 40k in no way resembles what you describe except for a few pieces of background here and there.
Games Workshop Delenda Est.
Users on ignore- 53.
If you break apart my or anyone else's posts line by line I will not read them.
2016/01/25 18:03:29
Subject: Space Wolves - Preorder Feb 6 2016 - The 13th Company Returns
nudibranch wrote: You know, I've come to realise that my interpretation of 40k is completely different to most people's on the site. I've never seen it as a gritty, down to earth setting but rather an over-the-top, toung-in-cheek sci fi black comedy that parodies science fiction tropes and 90s comic book darkness. To each their own, though.
In other words, goofy stuff like these wulfen appeal to me.
40k used to have some intentionally goofy stuff like you describe, these days it feels more like they're trying to be "grim dark" but falling on their faces.
I think SW are a faction that has suffered from being fleshed out too much. Back in 2nd, they were just slightly Wolfy Space Marines, there was more left to the imagination and you could picture your army how you liked. These days SW have been fleshed out to be a wolf clown army, if you prefer the idea of gritty vikings wearing wolf furs it's hard to get past all the wolfy mcwolferson the wolf lord of wolfington lane riding his thunderwolf to battle while slashing with his wolf claws.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2016/01/25 18:03:54
2016/01/25 18:13:51
Subject: Space Wolves - Preorder Feb 6 2016 - The 13th Company Returns
nudibranch wrote: You know, I've come to realise that my interpretation of 40k is completely different to most people's on the site. I've never seen it as a gritty, down to earth setting but rather an over-the-top, toung-in-cheek sci fi black comedy that parodies science fiction tropes and 90s comic book darkness. To each their own, though.
In other words, goofy stuff like these wulfen appeal to me.
Around 20 years ago this statement would be correct.
Modern 40k in no way resembles what you describe except for a few pieces of background here and there.
I personally disagree. I feel the current fluff is still steeped in the same old ridiculousness from the start, even if it's played more straight nowadays. I still feel a lot of the modern fluff and models are conceived with a sly wink. That's just how I feel though
You know, 'grimdark' means something else to me. To me it's not about being genuinely 'dark' or 'gritty', but rather said darkness and grittiness played up to illogical extremes to such a degree that it no longer really relates to an emotional reality and instead becomes humorous. Grimdark is seriousness brought to such an extreme that it can no longer be taken seriously , and I find that interesting. And the subsequent cartoonishness is just a result of this.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2016/01/25 18:20:18
2016/01/25 19:42:08
Subject: Space Wolves - Preorder Feb 6 2016 - The 13th Company Returns
gorgon wrote: In CERTAIN cases, we're talking about people with axes to grind against GW. And it's easy to pull out the "OMFG these modelz look so OTTROTFL!!1!1" when 40K is by its nature pretty cartoony and OTT. *shrug*
People seem able to discern much more than I can based on that horrible pic, but from what I can tell, these models look far more like what I'd expect 13th company to resemble. The old models would have us believe that they could spend 10,000 years doing GOD KNOWS WHAT in a realm phasing in and out of a hell dimension and come out looking like regular SW, other than their wolf heads and hands and maybe an extra necklace.
These models look like crazy, feral MFers.
While what you say is pretty much true, I kind of see it like different artists drawing comic book characters.
Every artist is going have their version of specific heroes. They are comic book super heroes, there is going to be some OTT to them...Then, you have Rob Liefeld.
Lately, it seems like GW has tended more towards the Rob Liefeld side of sculpts and these new SW13th demonstrate that.
The heads and hind haunches are what kills me. I personally dislike wolf legs on marines but they aren't nearly as comical to me as those heads, maybe those are the worst ones, hopefully anyway, but those front two look JUST like Beastman from Masters of the Universe.
I will admit though that the paint scheme isn't doing these any favors. I have always HATED the space wolf colors post heresy, they aren't alone though, I also prefer dark angles black.
Edit, to add to the paint issue, notice the front two guys have dark colored body hair and ginger facial/hair. Idiotic.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2016/01/25 20:10:11
kodos wrote: the question is, if the 13th returns, is this the first 40k EndTimes book?
It wasn't the last time they returned...
It's was actually, they just backed out of the result.
It would be interesting to see them re do the end times jn 40k though, as end times Warhammer did well commercially from what I've been told, doesn't mean they have to nuke the 40k universe.
Forgive me, but it does. Unless they're willing to substantially retcon or ignore most of the hints/prophesies/predictions from the fluff over the years, there's no way to put 40K through its own "end times" without the result being so radically dissimilar to the present setting as to mean it has effectively been nuked. The end of the Imperium isn't just the end of the Imperium, it's the end of mankind and, through that end, the end of Chaos. At best both would be given "dying race" status like the Eldar, with the disadvantage that human lifespans are so short you'd only have a handful of centuries of storytelling left, and it's already bad enough with the studio cramming practically everything of note that's happened since the Age of Apostasy into the last five years of 999.M41.
GW have written themselves into a corner - the 40K "end times" equivalent has been talked up as so apocalyptic, such an utter shattering of the status quo that they would only really have two choices; big bang, everything dies, fast forward a few eons and do Age of Sigmar 2; Space Marine Boogaloo, or else advance the story so incrementally and ineffectually that nothing would actually change very much. The first is a giant risk to take given the apparent reception of AoS and the fact 40K is their golden goose, and the latter rather makes you ask why bother then if you're just going to establish a new untouchable status quo where things are only superficially different?
I mean, consider the total minefield that just one aspect of the 40K "end times" would be; the return of the Primarchs. Word one, before they've even started, you're annoying Iron Hands players yet again. Then you've got all the vanished Primarchs; do they all come back? Will they have been changed by their experiences? Russ, as a nice topical example, has just spent 10 millennia in the Eye, so unless they're going to pull that "oh naw brah, time totes didn't pass, for him the Heresy was, like, yesterday!" nonsense the experience can't have failed to change him in some way - will SW players like those changes? What if they decide not to bring back Dorn or Jaghatai, are those fans going to take it well? How will Space Wolf players take it if Russ is killed off as part of the story? But then consider if they just decided to sidestep that one and not bring them back at all, then they're disappointing everyone who, quite reasonably based on the existing fluff, would be expecting their return. There's no path for them to take that doesn't piss off a lot of people, and that's just one part of one faction's fluff.
They could just about make the argument that doing such things didn't matter for Fantasy because so few people played it relative to their projections on how AoS would sell the losses would be irrelevant compared to the gains, but that logic simply won't work for 40K.
We'll see when we get the fluff in the new book, but I would suspect if they don't retcon the 13th Co returning as no longer being the precursor to Russ & the Wolftime, they'll advance things so marginally that we'll be at 10 seconds to midnight, rather than 30 as we are now, or 60 as we were a few years back, and do so in such a way that functionally nothing changes beyond people being able to play 13th Co. armies.
EDIT: And in addition to Rygnan's comments; it can be plausibly argued that the End Times was a commercial success because it's the most attention GW had paid to the system in terms of new models and the setting in terms of new fluff in years. If you're dying of dehydration even a stagnant muddy puddle will suffice, it doesn't mean you wouldn't prefer a nice chilled bottle of spring water.
Chaos breaks out of the eye, overwhelms the neighboring systems, imperium now sends massive amounts of fleets at them, chaos holds out and forms a massive beachhead in the outlying systems of the eye.
Wow.... No end of the universe and chaos wins the 13th black crusade, it also allows all the cool stuff to start appearing, primarchs, avatar reborn or something, vect, basically we can advance another 200 years of total war, the imperium has shrunk, the empire of the eye (what I'd call them) is expanding slowly, Eldar are trying to aid the imperials, orks are doing ork stuff, the Nid threat is getting worse, drawing the attention of the gods, tau discover true ftl tech through raiding a few tombships and see what the universe is really like, crons are now engaged in total war with the nids, dark eldar are doing there thong as usual.
So no, advancing post 13th crusade doesn't mean the end of 40k, just births 41k
But that's nonsense based on the existing fluff. The whole point of the 40K "end times" is it's supposed to be a massive apocalypse, the end of mankind, not a wee skirmish around a Chaos beachhead. Chaos are supposed to boil out of the warp and start a reign of terror, they break through the gates into the Emperor's throne room and overrun the earth, the Primarchs return and lead their warriors in a series of valiant glorious but ultimately doomed last stands, then just about all of humanity consumes itself in an orgy of war and Chaos, having lost us as a source of roiling emotional power, burn themselves out and the Necrons and Tyranids get to fight it out over the ruins. And the reason it is described with such staggering finality is it was never meant to actually be a storyline, just a nebulous future doom to give games in the setting of 40K some dramatic tension.
If they did do as you suggest, not only would it be functionally pointless(since if nothing will really change beyond adding some new units - they can do that now), it would generate so little actual real change/new content that the people who want storyline advancement would just start clamouring for more in a year or two, so they either give in and keep advancing incrementally until that sense of tension, of impending doom is gone, or they refuse and establish a new status quo barely different from the present one and we end up right back here again.
I just don't get why folk are so adamant about timeline advancement. If you want to play with Primarchs, that's what 30K is for. If you want new storylines to read and play through, buy the Beast Arises series. There's no shortage of "new" material in terms of story, and if you absolutely must resolve the central conflict of the setting then run your own "what if?" campaign.
"Your society's broken, so who should we blame? Should we blame the rich, powerful people who caused it? No, lets blame the people with no power and no money and those immigrants who don't even have the vote. Yea, it must be their fething fault." - Iain M Banks
-----
"The language of modern British politics is meant to sound benign. But words do not mean what they seem to mean. 'Reform' actually means 'cut' or 'end'. 'Flexibility' really means 'exploit'. 'Prudence' really means 'don't invest'. And 'efficient'? That means whatever you want it to mean, usually 'cut'. All really mean 'keep wages low for the masses, taxes low for the rich, profits high for the corporations, and accept the decline in public services and amenities this will cause'." - Robin McAlpine from Common Weal
2016/01/25 21:46:07
Subject: Space Wolves - Preorder Feb 6 2016 - The 13th Company Returns
kodos wrote: the question is, if the 13th returns, is this the first 40k EndTimes book?
It wasn't the last time they returned...
It's was actually, they just backed out of the result.
It would be interesting to see them re do the end times jn 40k though, as end times Warhammer did well commercially from what I've been told, doesn't mean they have to nuke the 40k universe.
Forgive me, but it does. Unless they're willing to substantially retcon or ignore most of the hints/prophesies/predictions from the fluff over the years, there's no way to put 40K through its own "end times" without the result being so radically dissimilar to the present setting as to mean it has effectively been nuked. The end of the Imperium isn't just the end of the Imperium, it's the end of mankind and, through that end, the end of Chaos. At best both would be given "dying race" status like the Eldar, with the disadvantage that human lifespans are so short you'd only have a handful of centuries of storytelling left, and it's already bad enough with the studio cramming practically everything of note that's happened since the Age of Apostasy into the last five years of 999.M41.
GW have written themselves into a corner - the 40K "end times" equivalent has been talked up as so apocalyptic, such an utter shattering of the status quo that they would only really have two choices; big bang, everything dies, fast forward a few eons and do Age of Sigmar 2; Space Marine Boogaloo, or else advance the story so incrementally and ineffectually that nothing would actually change very much. The first is a giant risk to take given the apparent reception of AoS and the fact 40K is their golden goose, and the latter rather makes you ask why bother then if you're just going to establish a new untouchable status quo where things are only superficially different?
I mean, consider the total minefield that just one aspect of the 40K "end times" would be; the return of the Primarchs. Word one, before they've even started, you're annoying Iron Hands players yet again. Then you've got all the vanished Primarchs; do they all come back? Will they have been changed by their experiences? Russ, as a nice topical example, has just spent 10 millennia in the Eye, so unless they're going to pull that "oh naw brah, time totes didn't pass, for him the Heresy was, like, yesterday!" nonsense the experience can't have failed to change him in some way - will SW players like those changes? What if they decide not to bring back Dorn or Jaghatai, are those fans going to take it well? How will Space Wolf players take it if Russ is killed off as part of the story? But then consider if they just decided to sidestep that one and not bring them back at all, then they're disappointing everyone who, quite reasonably based on the existing fluff, would be expecting their return. There's no path for them to take that doesn't piss off a lot of people, and that's just one part of one faction's fluff.
They could just about make the argument that doing such things didn't matter for Fantasy because so few people played it relative to their projections on how AoS would sell the losses would be irrelevant compared to the gains, but that logic simply won't work for 40K.
We'll see when we get the fluff in the new book, but I would suspect if they don't retcon the 13th Co returning as no longer being the precursor to Russ & the Wolftime, they'll advance things so marginally that we'll be at 10 seconds to midnight, rather than 30 as we are now, or 60 as we were a few years back, and do so in such a way that functionally nothing changes beyond people being able to play 13th Co. armies.
EDIT: And in addition to Rygnan's comments; it can be plausibly argued that the End Times was a commercial success because it's the most attention GW had paid to the system in terms of new models and the setting in terms of new fluff in years. If you're dying of dehydration even a stagnant muddy puddle will suffice, it doesn't mean you wouldn't prefer a nice chilled bottle of spring water.
Chaos breaks out of the eye, overwhelms the neighboring systems, imperium now sends massive amounts of fleets at them, chaos holds out and forms a massive beachhead in the outlying systems of the eye.
Wow.... No end of the universe and chaos wins the 13th black crusade, it also allows all the cool stuff to start appearing, primarchs, avatar reborn or something, vect, basically we can advance another 200 years of total war, the imperium has shrunk, the empire of the eye (what I'd call them) is expanding slowly, Eldar are trying to aid the imperials, orks are doing ork stuff, the Nid threat is getting worse, drawing the attention of the gods, tau discover true ftl tech through raiding a few tombships and see what the universe is really like, crons are now engaged in total war with the nids, dark eldar are doing there thong as usual.
So no, advancing post 13th crusade doesn't mean the end of 40k, just births 41k
So basically you want to advance the storyline while keeping everything pretty much the same. What would be the point?
They don't need a 40k Endtimes. 40k is already the 40k Endtimes. THAT'S THE WHOLE POINT OF THE SETTING. The 13th Black Crusade is Abaddon's last crusade. The one that ends it all. It's 2 minutes to midnight. Guess what happens at midnight? Spoiler alert: everyone dies. The End.
Wanna know what happens 200 years later? Nothing - everyone's still dead. Isn't storyline advancement fun?
You gotta remember that for GW 200 years isn't enough. I'd say 200 thousand years.
You know, 'grimdark' means something else to me. To me it's not about being genuinely 'dark' or 'gritty', but rather said darkness and grittiness played up to illogical extremes to such a degree that it no longer really relates to an emotional reality and instead becomes humorous. Grimdark is seriousness brought to such an extreme that it can no longer be taken seriously , and I find that interesting. And the subsequent cartoonishness is just a result of this.
Yeah that was GW at some point. For some time now they seem to take grimdark as really grim and really dark to the extreme, like they actually mean it. From my memory it started as pulpy sci-fi flavoured with british humour (RT era -> into 2ed), then with Tuomas Pirinen's work (which was fantasy based but influenced the design team) the perspective shifted into being a bit more serious but after than they just run with the idea and removed any balancing elements.
And now we occasionally get over the top stuff that seems to take itself too serious without winking in our direction.
2016/01/25 23:54:55
Subject: Re:Space Wolves - Preorder Feb 6 2016 - The 13th Company Returns
While it's always had some sci-fi influences and 'flavour', 40k was conceived as a space fantasy setting, including space orks, elves and dwarves.
As a space fantasy setting that included influences from a miriad of sources, the authors were clever enough not to take their product too seriously, and it worked.
Then the late 90s came along, 3rd edition was released, and 40k embraced its more "Grimdark" tones. And it was ok for a while, because there were (mostly) talented people writing the story.
Fast forwards ten years, and the old talented writers are replaced by incompetent goons who make everything sound like cheap fan-fiction written by teenagers. The old dark humor is lost in transition, and the more Grimdark they want to be, the more they feth up. Thus 40k ends up becoming a sad and unfunny unintented parody of itself.
And then, in February 2016, these Wulfen models are released, as a pretty good personification of the current state of 40k as a franchise.
Progress is like a herd of pigs: everybody is interested in the produced benefits, but nobody wants to deal with all the resulting gak.
GW customers deserve every bit of outrageous princing they get.
2016/01/26 01:50:41
Subject: Space Wolves - Preorder Feb 6 2016 - The 13th Company Returns
gorgon wrote: In CERTAIN cases, we're talking about people with axes to grind against GW. And it's easy to pull out the "OMFG these modelz look so OTTROTFL!!1!1" when 40K is by its nature pretty cartoony and OTT. *shrug*
People seem able to discern much more than I can based on that horrible pic, but from what I can tell, these models look far more like what I'd expect 13th company to resemble. The old models would have us believe that they could spend 10,000 years doing GOD KNOWS WHAT in a realm phasing in and out of a hell dimension and come out looking like regular SW, other than their wolf heads and hands and maybe an extra necklace.
These models look like crazy, feral MFers.
Although time is completely subjective in the Eye, so not necessarily 10k years to them, and it was described originally that Wolfen are quite resistant to the touch of Chaos, and therefore all of the 13th company as they are all touched by the Wolfen curse in some way, moreso than normal Space Wolves. Also not to mention that they are original legion marines, so could be seen as "more pure/strong" than standard Wolves of the 41st millenium.
Course that's all old fluff that could be retconned at any time.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2016/01/26 01:52:14
"By this point I'm convinced 100% that every single race in the 40k universe have somehow tapped into the ork ability to just have their tech work because they think it should."
2016/01/26 04:51:20
Subject: Re:Space Wolves - Preorder Feb 6 2016 - The 13th Company Returns
Wanted to post some pics of the 13th's first release during the Eye of Terror campaign, I believe.
SW 13th Wulfen pack
Spoiler:
I want to point out the faces on these guys. I remember when they were released people didn't like the faces then, more wereape than werewolf. But the armor, I like. I could work with that model and add things to it to modify it more. The previews we just saw, they don't leave a lot for you to work with.
Storm Claws and Grey Hunters.
Spoiler:
Both units look good and have the right amount of cobbled together armor.
My Space Wolves started in 1st /2ndedition with the old metal terminators and marines. Great models, still hold their own among new models.
I added many new models through the years so the army is quite big by now. I like a historical overview within an army.
I also have old Wulfen.
I do not think i will have the new Wulfen. Don't like them.
Too OOT and they somehow mutated more than most chaos space marines. They remind me the most of the new AoS Khorne Chaos Warriors.
I would have liked it more if they had gone full werewolf...
2016/01/26 07:32:21
Subject: Re:Space Wolves - Preorder Feb 6 2016 - The 13th Company Returns
I think the sprue breakdown will be the key thing for me. Those bits sprinkled around a larger squad could make something pretty cool looking. I always hated trying to convert the old metal minis so anything in plastic is a big plus.
2016/01/26 08:43:56
Subject: Space Wolves - Preorder Feb 6 2016 - The 13th Company Returns
I actually agree with the above. A sprue breakdown means we know what bits are going to be readily available for any Marine conversions. Two handed Axes are always attractive...
CaptainStabby wrote: If Tyberos falls and needs to catch himself it's because the ground needed killing.
jy2 wrote: BTW, I can't wait to run Double-D-thirsters! Man, just thinking about it gets me Khorney.
vipoid wrote: Indeed - what sort of bastard would want to use their codex?
MarsNZ wrote: ITT: SoB players upset that they're receiving the same condescending treatment that they've doled out in every CSM thread ever.
2016/01/26 09:12:53
Subject: Re:Space Wolves - Preorder Feb 6 2016 - The 13th Company Returns
I think as pants as these look, if the rules are good they'll be everywhere. Just like the centurions. sale by overpowered rules, not looks. Glad I don't play space wolves.
Its hard to be awesome, when your playing with little plastic men. Welcome to Fantasy 40k
If you think your important, in the great scheme of things. Do the water test.
Put your hands in a bucket of warm water,
then pull them out fast. The size of the hole shows how important you are.
I think we should roll some dice, to see if we should roll some dice, To decide if all this dice rolling is good for the game.
2016/01/26 11:31:41
Subject: Re:Space Wolves - Preorder Feb 6 2016 - The 13th Company Returns
loki old fart wrote: I think as pants as these look, if the rules are good they'll be everywhere. Just like the centurions. sale by overpowered rules, not looks. Glad I don't play space wolves.
I was just about to say the exact same thing, you can guarantee these will be the next "must have" thing in the 'Dex and will be seen everywhere.
Having said that I felt the same way about SM Centurions, hated the models and the fact they crop up everywhere because the rules are good but actually over time the models have really grown on me and I do like them so maybe these will be the same.
"Dig in and wait for Winter"
2016/01/26 12:15:58
Subject: Re:Space Wolves - Preorder Feb 6 2016 - The 13th Company Returns
loki old fart wrote: I think as pants as these look, if the rules are good they'll be everywhere. Just like the centurions. sale by overpowered rules, not looks. Glad I don't play space wolves.
I was just about to say the exact same thing, you can guarantee these will be the next "must have" thing in the 'Dex and will be seen everywhere.
Having said that I felt the same way about SM Centurions, hated the models and the fact they crop up everywhere because the rules are good but actually over time the models have really grown on me and I do like them so maybe these will be the same.
I never really hated how Centurions looked. It was more the concept, a Space Marine placed inside a suit of armour which is placed inside a bigger suit of armour. Especially when Space Marines in bigger suits of armour already existed, ya know, Terminators, those things that suck so hard no one takes them
2016/01/26 12:18:23
Subject: Re:Space Wolves - Preorder Feb 6 2016 - The 13th Company Returns
loki old fart wrote: I think as pants as these look, if the rules are good they'll be everywhere. Just like the centurions. sale by overpowered rules, not looks. Glad I don't play space wolves.
I was just about to say the exact same thing, you can guarantee these will be the next "must have" thing in the 'Dex and will be seen everywhere.
Having said that I felt the same way about SM Centurions, hated the models and the fact they crop up everywhere because the rules are good but actually over time the models have really grown on me and I do like them so maybe these will be the same.
I still feel that way about them. Too toy-ish for my taste.
Its hard to be awesome, when your playing with little plastic men. Welcome to Fantasy 40k
If you think your important, in the great scheme of things. Do the water test.
Put your hands in a bucket of warm water,
then pull them out fast. The size of the hole shows how important you are.
I think we should roll some dice, to see if we should roll some dice, To decide if all this dice rolling is good for the game.
2016/01/26 12:40:32
Subject: Space Wolves - Preorder Feb 6 2016 - The 13th Company Returns
loki old fart wrote: I think as pants as these look, if the rules are good they'll be everywhere. Just like the centurions. sale by overpowered rules, not looks.
Not so sure. I mean, 80% of GW's customers just buy the models to paint and collect, not play games with them. Right?
1550
500 
