Northern85Star wrote: TWC are infantry killers, yes, but giving the packleader a thunderhammer means they are not vulnerable to monsters and vehicles. It is plain stupid going all out on anti-infantry on such an expensive unit, making them easily counterable.
Jack of all trades, master of none.
You have units that fulfill specific roles and do that very well. There is no need to make one of your guys anti-tank when it's already an anti-infantry squad. In a 2000 points list you can build such that you have other things to deal with armor.
Mix and matching war gear works when you have access to defensive stuff (like stormshields) and that fundamentally changes the kit.
For example, Claws, Claws, Shield + Chainsword. Get the 3++ should you need it but don't overpay, and get better infantry clearing melee.
Going: Hammer, Claws, Claws, makes no sense. You've diminished your effectiveness versus infantry and you won't ever use that squad to reliably attack any armor at all.
It is plain stupid mixing wargear to attack everything on the table. Specializing IS smart.
TWC on their own are not an efficient unit. But they are decent wounds, toughness, and invulnerable save that move fast enough and have enough attacks to help protect your characters like Bjorn. That is their purpose. You won't be tarpitting Bjorn, or easily attacking the rune priest / aggressors if on the table. They're a body guard unit. And you primarily protect against infantry.
I was testing out fists on mine for a couple reasons. Although, i don't believe this to be the most efficient weapon at the moment.
Putting a TH in the unit barely diminishes their lethality against infantry, but it makes a HUGE difference if you get countercharged by vehicles or monsters. It is such a good trade that you absolutely must make it. It also means that your TWC arent degraded to MSU against IK.
And if you field wulfen and/or Arjac, then that single TH is going to be with 4-5 attacks.
I started kitting TWC anti-infantry, but im never going back to that setup. (“Never” meaning: as long as rules are the way they are xD )
Automatically Appended Next Post: My setup priority is this:
1: th/ss (leader)
2: chainsword/ss 3: chainsword/ss 4: dual wolf claws
5: dual wolf claws
Meaning that i only field claws on them if i go over 3 models. Even then, going chainsword/ss on #4 and 5 isnt a bad idea. They still absolutely wreck infantry... but also daemon princes and such.
Against monsters and vehicles we already have wulfen, dreads and characters though, which are usually enough as melee anti tank. Even SW termies with 2-3 TH/SS can do good since they're quite cheap compared to TWC. Against infantries however we have very little units that are really good in melee. Just a huge blob of blood claws, wolf guards with storm bolters and chainswords, and those TWC actually. Lots of S5 AP-1 attacks, hitting on 2s, re-rolling wounds caused by claws are killy against armored stuff, those TWC can absolutely go against daemon princes and such if you really need that, there's no need of a hammer.
Northern85Star wrote: Putting a TH in the unit barely diminishes their lethality against infantry, but it makes a HUGE difference if you get countercharged by vehicles or monsters. It is such a good trade that you absolutely must make it. It also means that your TWC arent degraded to MSU against IK.
This is just terrible advice. Maybe things are different in Europe, but, I would never pay the exorbitant price to field a thunder hammer on what is primarily anti-infantry.
TWC have no business fighting a knight. You can get far better rate of return elsewhere. Why overpay for the wolves they ride on, when those are totally useless against true armor? (high T and good save).
If someone is counter-charging your TWC with vehicles you've got silly problems, manifested by bad positioning, and weird opponents.
Northern85Star wrote: Putting a TH in the unit barely diminishes their lethality against infantry, but it makes a HUGE difference if you get countercharged by vehicles or monsters. It is such a good trade that you absolutely must make it. It also means that your TWC arent degraded to MSU against IK.
This is just terrible advice. Maybe things are different in Europe, but, I would never pay the exorbitant price to field a thunder hammer on what is primarily anti-infantry.
TWC have no business fighting a knight. You can get far better rate of return elsewhere. Why overpay for the wolves they ride on, when those are totally useless against true armor? (high T and good save).
If someone is counter-charging your TWC with vehicles you've got silly problems, manifested by bad positioning, and weird opponents.
TH is more effective than Wolf Claw or any other weapon against anything that isn't 1W. Now I'm not suggesting trying to kill a Knight with TWC but they are quite efficient and tough vs most heavy infantry (2-3W, T4-5). Especially if you bring a Thunderlord with Wulfenstone along. AFAIK it's only 6 points over a Wolf Claw so... I get why you are saying they are anti-infantry but they are completely wasted against GEQ. They basically require a storm shield to get where you want them (CC) or be effective as a meatshield so at their cheapest you're looking at a 150 point unit if you take chainswords for 18 anti-GEQ attacks... not worth it. And if you're going for frost weapons or wolf claws for anti-MEQ you might as well shell out the few extra required teef to get those shiny Thunderhammers.
Hell, you could even charge them in against many Knight configurations anyway because T5 3W 3++ is hard to overwatch efficiently for them (just don't be stupid and send them in against a Castellan or Valiant.) so that your special snowflakes (Bjorn, Thunderlord with Wulfenstone and Seeking a Saga strat) can safely krump them.
Now that I think about it... maybe the best way to view these guys is as Assault Terminators that don't require a Land Raider to get anywhere. Still not the best thing ever, but hey.
No one can guarantee that their TWC isnt going to get charged by more mobile vehicles or monsters, hence the TH. This makes them a huge threat to infantry, and a slight threat to big models.. instead of only a threat to infantry, which your opponen will capitalize on by getting them tied up with a rhino or whatever (if not a knight, or vertus praetors.. even nurglings!)
As for thunderwolves i have found mine in cc a few times with knights. They soaked up the overwatch so my wolf lord and wolf guard battle leader could get in free and clear and between the 3 groups put some serious hurt onto the knight. If even 1 of those hammer hits from the pack get through that could mean the difference between top and middle or middle and bottom level of the knights bracket. For the little cost its worth it.
You cant always dictate how a game will go. Sometimes an opponent will outplay you or get lucky and have units survive well beyond their expected level due to good save rolls. That doesnt mean you should gear a unit up for all situations obviously, but for the little cost to get that hammer.... well you bring that damn hammer lol.
I mean what are you going to do if the thunderwolves get charged by an empty rhino? Without the hammer you wont hurt it. But it will keep that squad locked down for a long time. With the hammer you could potentially kill it in 1 round of combat.
I'd say bring Hammers anywhere you can fit them. TWC leader is a good bet since he has 3 base attacks. If you bring only chainswords or even wolf claws a single Dreadnought (or equivalent) can seriously tarpit them if they don't have a hammer to do some work.
And FWIW I have tried WG bikers (SB/SS) a few times and they just outright suck outside of being a bullet sponge of mediocre survivability. The dakka is impressive on paper against maybe guardsmen or gretchin but against anything else they're just dead weight imo. MAYBE if you can keep them out of LOS for T1 and T2 and capitalize on their speed later on they might have a niche. But don't count on them getting more than one salvo off before getting killed or chargelocked.
Weazel wrote: I'd say bring Hammers anywhere you can fit them. TWC leader is a good bet since he has 3 base attacks. If you bring only chainswords or even wolf claws a single Dreadnought (or equivalent) can seriously tarpit them if they don't have a hammer to do some work.
And FWIW I have tried WG bikers (SB/SS) a few times and they just outright suck outside of being a bullet sponge of mediocre survivability. The dakka is impressive on paper against maybe guardsmen or gretchin but against anything else they're just dead weight imo. MAYBE if you can keep them out of LOS for T1 and T2 and capitalize on their speed later on they might have a niche. But don't count on them getting more than one salvo off before getting killed or chargelocked.
Sounds like your metas are full of tanks, monsters and multiwounds models in general. I've never taken a TH in my TWC in this edition and while they are always part of my lists, and not in a single game I missed the hammer. Many times instead I wished I had more anti infantry tools. The Wolf guard bikers are good against hordes, which are IMHO the real hard counter for SW since we can deal with knights and vehicles with a lot of stuff but against hordes we don't have many efficient answers. Even shooty units are basically focussed as anti tank. Seriously, with 2 killy characters, wulfen and another choppy unit that is usually WG termies or a dread plus plasma guns and lascannons I never wished I had more anti tank. Units like wulfen or our heroes, who have amazing profiles, can be tarpitted with no effort by an horde and easily killed by it. Even the full 6 man squad of TWC with 3 claws and shield and 3 dual claws buffed by Arjac and wulfen/wulfen stone is not able to completely clear a 30 man squad with average rolls.
Wolf guard bikers durability isn't an issue, of course you must have a list with targets that compete to soak the same kind of damage. Shots against bikers is damage avoided for long fangs, wulfen or TWC if mid-low strength and damage avoided for razorbacks and the gunship (but also TWC) if anti tank. A five man squad with all storm bolters and 3 shields is 195 points, like 4 TWC with two shields and 1-2 melee weapons which aren't really more durable or more killy.
Guardsmen and gretchins are also among the most competitive units in this moment It's very likely to face a lot of them, and without the tools for killing tons of them SW don't stand a chance against AM and the new orks.
We cant deal with a knight valiant unless we go the beastslayer chap dread route. That 18” 3d6 s8 ap-2 dmg 2 flamer is just ridiculous (why did the meta need this model GW?! To sell more reavers to negate overwatch? Not like assault armies needed a harder meta, with the nerfs to alpha strike...)
Weazel wrote: I'd say bring Hammers anywhere you can fit them. TWC leader is a good bet since he has 3 base attacks. If you bring only chainswords or even wolf claws a single Dreadnought (or equivalent) can seriously tarpit them if they don't have a hammer to do some work.
And FWIW I have tried WG bikers (SB/SS) a few times and they just outright suck outside of being a bullet sponge of mediocre survivability. The dakka is impressive on paper against maybe guardsmen or gretchin but against anything else they're just dead weight imo. MAYBE if you can keep them out of LOS for T1 and T2 and capitalize on their speed later on they might have a niche. But don't count on them getting more than one salvo off before getting killed or chargelocked.
Sounds like your metas are full of tanks, monsters and multiwounds models in general. I've never taken a TH in my TWC in this edition and while they are always part of my lists, and not in a single game I missed the hammer. Many times instead I wished I had more anti infantry tools. The Wolf guard bikers are good against hordes, which are IMHO the real hard counter for SW since we can deal with knights and vehicles with a lot of stuff but against hordes we don't have many efficient answers. Even shooty units are basically focussed as anti tank. Seriously, with 2 killy characters, wulfen and another choppy unit that is usually WG termies or a dread plus plasma guns and lascannons I never wished I had more anti tank. Units like wulfen or our heroes, who have amazing profiles, can be tarpitted with no effort by an horde and easily killed by it. Even the full 6 man squad of TWC with 3 claws and shield and 3 dual claws buffed by Arjac and wulfen/wulfen stone is not able to completely clear a 30 man squad with average rolls.
Wolf guard bikers durability isn't an issue, of course you must have a list with targets that compete to soak the same kind of damage. Shots against bikers is damage avoided for long fangs, wulfen or TWC if mid-low strength and damage avoided for razorbacks and the gunship (but also TWC) if anti tank. A five man squad with all storm bolters and 3 shields is 195 points, like 4 TWC with two shields and 1-2 melee weapons which aren't really more durable or more killy.
Guardsmen and gretchins are also among the most competitive units in this moment It's very likely to face a lot of them, and without the tools for killing tons of them SW don't stand a chance against AM and the new orks.
5 Long Fangs with frag missiles and reroll wounds stratagem is just a terrific unit at taking out hordes of Orks or Gaunts or anything with a weak save. I'd take them over a pack of WG bikers every day of the week really. Krak missiles are no lascannons but you'll still have a reasonable chance at wounding armor too. And let's be honest, who plays mono wolves anyway? It's the Era of the Soup. Take Punishers and Wyverns to really rack up those horde kills.
Space Wolves' problem is that they are marines and they just pay a little bit too much for everything which keeps them out of the really competitive scene. We'll see if the CA makes a difference.
The majority of players doesn't soup actually, only tournaments obsessed ones do, and maybe someone who owns two armies that he wanted anyway.
5 krak missiles are 209 points, 6W in total, CPs dependant, that can fire on average 5*D6 shots=17-18 shots which are 14 hits, so only 7 wounds against T4 and 16-17 against T3, with no stratagem. 5 bikers are cheaper, almost twice the wounds, no penalty for moving, T5, 3+ invuln and they fire 40 bolters shots in rapid fire range, which are 26-27 hits on average, so 13-14 wounds against T4 bodies and 17-18 against T3 ones. Plus 17 attacks with the chainswords on 2s which may cause another 7-8 wounds on T4 dudes and 10 on T3 ones with a successful charge. I'm not even mentioning Arjac and wulfen/wulfen stone that grants up to +2 more attacks or the presence of a character that adds some re-roll.
Even with the strategem those WG bikers end up way more deadly against infantries than long fangs. And speed may also help to score some point.
Missiles at 25ppm are utterly overcosted, they need to be 20 at most to be viable.
For me, Long Fangs always deliver. However WG Bikes have failed to do so, time and again. Like I said, they look great on paper but the fact of the matter is that they still get out one salvo max (if you go first) before getting killed dead or melee locked. Charging into melee with them is just utterly dumb, their output lies in their ranged attack which incidentally requires them to go too close to the enemy. You'll just get charged by a Rhino or whatever.
They may require a certain type of list/support/playstyle that I lack, but I am not impressed by them.
Well I always bring 4 melee units, and 1-2 buffing characters so they do work. It's usually 5 wulfen, 5 TWC and two units of WGaf all kind: termies, jump packs, bikes or footslogging dudes delivered by one of the the flyers.
Long fangs instead get a lot of attraction. I've started fielding units of 6 dudes with just 3 heavy weapons, usually lascannons, to let them do something if I go second. Sometimes 5 dudes with 3 heavy weapons if I stuggle with points.
Weazel wrote: I'd say bring Hammers anywhere you can fit them. TWC leader is a good bet since he has 3 base attacks. If you bring only chainswords or even wolf claws a single Dreadnought (or equivalent) can seriously tarpit them if they don't have a hammer to do some work.
And FWIW I have tried WG bikers (SB/SS) a few times and they just outright suck outside of being a bullet sponge of mediocre survivability. The dakka is impressive on paper against maybe guardsmen or gretchin but against anything else they're just dead weight imo. MAYBE if you can keep them out of LOS for T1 and T2 and capitalize on their speed later on they might have a niche. But don't count on them getting more than one salvo off before getting killed or chargelocked.
Sounds like your metas are full of tanks, monsters and multiwounds models in general. I've never taken a TH in my TWC in this edition and while they are always part of my lists, and not in a single game I missed the hammer. Many times instead I wished I had more anti infantry tools. The Wolf guard bikers are good against hordes, which are IMHO the real hard counter for SW since we can deal with knights and vehicles with a lot of stuff but against hordes we don't have many efficient answers. Even shooty units are basically focussed as anti tank. Seriously, with 2 killy characters, wulfen and another choppy unit that is usually WG termies or a dread plus plasma guns and lascannons I never wished I had more anti tank. Units like wulfen or our heroes, who have amazing profiles, can be tarpitted with no effort by an horde and easily killed by it. Even the full 6 man squad of TWC with 3 claws and shield and 3 dual claws buffed by Arjac and wulfen/wulfen stone is not able to completely clear a 30 man squad with average rolls.
Wolf guard bikers durability isn't an issue, of course you must have a list with targets that compete to soak the same kind of damage. Shots against bikers is damage avoided for long fangs, wulfen or TWC if mid-low strength and damage avoided for razorbacks and the gunship (but also TWC) if anti tank. A five man squad with all storm bolters and 3 shields is 195 points, like 4 TWC with two shields and 1-2 melee weapons which aren't really more durable or more killy.
Guardsmen and gretchins are also among the most competitive units in this moment It's very likely to face a lot of them, and without the tools for killing tons of them SW don't stand a chance against AM and the new orks.
Well, Wolf Guard bikers with Storm Bolters are indeed awesome vs. GEQ hordes, but they are also index-only, and therefore I kinda want to avoid them because the expected life expectancy of index units could be anywhere between 3 months and 5 years (no models yet and I don't want to tool up models with stuff that might be illegal soon).
Hmm, maybe I could use Assault Bolter Inceptors against hordes... but 45 points a pop is kinda expensive for something that doesn't come with a Storm Shield.
Im facing a knight valiant, 9 vertus praetors + captain and a battalion of IG with mortars.
Apart from the beastslayer chaplain dread list (which i am already building), what would your solution be to this? Mind you that it has to work against other factions still. 1750 pts.
Does anyone kit their troop choices with wolf guard terminator pack leader? I find it extremely hard to consider due to 5" movement, and lack of transport options.
Ilgoth wrote: Does anyone kit their troop choices with wolf guard terminator pack leader? I find it extremely hard to consider due to 5" movement, and lack of transport options.
If you do that, the better way to get them upfield is pay a CP to outflank them or load them in a Stormwolf..
Of course, if that is a long fang pack, no worry about it, and better equip him with CML and rain down hell.
Ilgoth wrote: Does anyone kit their troop choices with wolf guard terminator pack leader? I find it extremely hard to consider due to 5" movement, and lack of transport options.
With the “Wolfs eye” stratagem, you get most bang for your CP by maximizing firepower in one squad of long fangs. I used to use 2 x 5 long fangs (340 pts for 8 missiles), now i instead run 1x7 long fangs, including wgpl TDA w/cml, sb and ss (292 pts for 7 missiles). The latter option has the benefit of better utilizing CPs for both “wolfs eye” and “lone wolf” stratagems, at a reduced cost.. but comes at the price of one less missile, fewer priority targets in your list, and less bodies.
Regarding the loadout for the wgpl tda, the faq says that when taking a cml, you can still swap his stormbolter out for another weapon. What are eligible swaps? Only combi weapons?
Ilgoth wrote: Does anyone kit their troop choices with wolf guard terminator pack leader? I find it extremely hard to consider due to 5" movement, and lack of transport options.
I have a dual plasma GH pack who have a WGPL with combi-plas. I mainly run it because it is a really old model. It was my first serious conversion back in the days when that meant cutting metal with a dremel!
He is not particularly effective but I generally keep running him out of sentimentality.
Are either of the Christmas battleforce boxes any good for a new Space Wolves player?
I'm leaning on no, since Primaris marines don't seem to see much action, but the value's so high on those boxes...
Of the two, which one fits SW's better?
Imperial Fists bundle has the Redemptor Dread which is pretty useless, but it has Hellblasters which are great and you might get some mileage out of outflanking Aggressors.
Ultramarines bundle has the Repulsor which is more useful than the Dread but you get Reivers which are pretty useless.
If you must pick either one I'd probably go with the Imperial Fists bundle. That said neither bundle is very hot for Space Wolves. Unless Chapter Approved buffs (=discounts) Primaris Marines significantly.
Intercessors and Hellblasters are decent for Space Wolves, as they are for all Chapters but overall I would say Wolves need Primaris support the less than other Chapters.
Blackie wrote: SW ar far better without primaris, I'd completely avoid the new bundles if you're interested in SW.
I think Riviers are pretty good addition for Space Wolves, maybe not an auto take like Long Fang or Wulfen, but still a strong deterant unit, neutralizing enemy overwatch of your opponent could be huge for your packs to charge in.
The only problem is, they have no real way to alpha strike with the grenade. Foot slogging means death to any T4 Sv3+ units tbh. Deep Strike would means they are out at 9" away so no grenade tossed, next turn they are basically footslogging.
Are either of the Christmas battleforce boxes any good for a new Space Wolves player?
I'm leaning on no, since Primaris marines don't seem to see much action, but the value's so high on those boxes...
Of the two, which one fits SW's better?
Wait for CA 2018 and vigilus defiant reviews this weekend to see if primaris have improved with the new point costs and the new special detachments (wolves also get one)
Soo... anyone has any clue about what that Stalker Pack formation from Vigilus Defiant is going to entail? Judging from the name might be more Outflanking shenanigans to play with.
Are either of the Christmas battleforce boxes any good for a new Space Wolves player?
I'm leaning on no, since Primaris marines don't seem to see much action, but the value's so high on those boxes...
Of the two, which one fits SW's better?
Wait for CA 2018 and vigilus defiant reviews this weekend to see if primaris have improved with the new point costs and the new special detachments (wolves also get one)
This. A lot of things might change. But yes, as has been said, as things are at this very moment Primaris are of limited use to SW.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Karhedron wrote: Intercessors and Hellblasters are decent for Space Wolves, as they are for all Chapters but overall I would say Wolves need Primaris support the less than other Chapters.
Hellblasters are nice for SW but have far greater synergy with shooty chapters like DA and Ultrasmurfs. Also, Long Fangs just seem better to me with their inherent reroll 1s and their special stratagem. I could see Intercessors being quite nice for SW as an all-purpose midfield unit if they had a good transport option (Probably going to arrive sometime next year with the 2nd wave of Primaris models. And by Russ and the Allfather GIVE THEM ALL THE OPTION TO TAKE A CHAINSWORD!!). Plasma Grey Hunters are far superior to spend (a) CP(s) on for outflanking, so that's out too.
Hey everyone so I have a question what is your favorite combo to use in 8th
I’ve posted full list with this combo on another thread but just curious if anyone has found a harder hit combo
1 wolf priest with jump pack buffing
A pack of wulfen who buff everything around them and a pack of 15 blood claws
the blood claws have 46 attacks thanks to the wulfen and berserker charge and chain swords
Automatically Appended Next Post: Blood claw has a base attack if 1
+1 for chain sword
+1 berserker charge
And the pack leader has base 2 attacks
And with the priest to heal the wulfen and give everyone reroll to hits makes the hit rate almost 100%
And I know you can kill a whole mob of 20 boys in one around or 30 storm boys
TWC just got better if they can now take Storm Shields at 2 points each. Wulfen will appreciate that too. Long Fangs just got better since the heavy weapons got cheaper. Beyond that, I'm not sure, as I haven't read all the Space Wolves leaks.
Hammer packs of wulfen just got 12 points cheaper. TWC may have gotten cheaper, but they have their own special storm shield mention...so I don't think it applies to them.
Super cheap plasma cannons make hellblasters pointless for us.
A thunder hammer and stormshield terminator loadout is now 205. Stormshield and combi plasma even cheaper.
Nothing that's going to put us on top by ourselves, but a wulfen detachment is now something to take next to knights and IG.
I'm pretty sure Storm Shield for TWC is still 10 points which is a bummer. CA only lists changes and no change was listed for Storm Shield (Thunderwolf Cavalry).
But the SS change still affects Wulfen, and SS Terminators got a total of 6 ppm reduction, which is not too shabby. Combined with the Land Raider reduction a LR full of Hammernators and Arjac might be a viable choice now.
I'm not sure I'll start running Drop Pods or Land Speeders even when both got a 20 ppm drop.
Justyn wrote: I wouldn't count on TWC having 2pt SS until you see it from GW. I'm hoping they meant it to be for TWC also. But my expectations are a bit lower.
Anyone seen info on the Vigilus Stalker Packs?
Yep. Taken from what I remembered (and hopefully understood correctly) from the Vigilus book review of GMG. Bit of mixed feelings. Very fluffy, a little bit "too fair", but utterly brutal if you can pull it off. Very quick outline:
- Eligible models are Battle Leaders, Blood Claws and Reivers.
- Warlord Trait: Saga of the Savage. +1A when charging (probably also when getting charged or heroically intervening). Deed of legend is to inflict 5 wounds (I thought in a single round of CC?) upon which it becomes a 6" aura.
- Relic: Power Axe with a rather hard to pronounce name, +1S, -2AP, Dd3, inflicts D3 mortal wounds instead of normal damage on an unmodified wound roll of 6.
- Stratagems: Blood Scent: 2 CP, +1 to wound rolls in the fight phase when attacking a unit with a model in it that has already suffered at least 1 damage (or has at least 1 dead model in case of 1W models). 2nd Strat I forgot the name of, but it's 1 CP and lets you roll 3D6 for charge distance and then discard the lowest dice.
Verdict: As I said, it's... decent-ish. I had really hoped that there'd be something for TWC in here but no. I also cannot really find a place for Reivers in this formation because of lack of transport options and no access to PF/TH. Disabling Overwatch on infantry is very nice however and they're quite nasty horde clearers though. If only the dudes could take Wolf Claws... Saga of the Savage on a Battle Leader with the relic axe and SS makes for a very cheap yet decent beatstick. Although to make meeting the deed of legend requirement as easy as possible I'd imagine you want a TH on the dude. A small swarm of Blood Claws affected by Saga of the Savage is quite brutal on the charge (4A each, and you can hide a Power Fist and Thunder Hammer in each squad. No wait, make that a TH/SS on the WL + Wulfen Stone and it's 5A for everyone in 3" of the Battle Leader) and will handily demolish anything that is not T8+ or has a 2+ save, and even T8+ with a 3+ save isn't safe when you can activate Blood Scent against it (Why hello mr. Knight). The big caveat is of course that this combo is quite hard to pull off. You have to get in melee range, succeed mutliple charges, then inflict 5W with the Trait holder. If you do however... prepare for carnage.
Only problem is how to get your little monsters safely in CC. Outflanking them is iffy because it's both expensive and even a 3D6 discard lowest 9" charge is far from guaranteed. Thinking that maybe a Stormwolf might be your best bet for this package. WGBL + a 15-Claw squad (or a 7 and 8 man squad if you want an extra TH and PF and are willing to paint an even bigger target on your Stormwolf) and a Stormwolf with quad HB to keep it cheap and give it screen-clearing capability. Get Stormwolf into a good position, clear screens with dispersed Helfrost cannons and bolters, shoot some vehicle or monsters with your Twin Lascannons (good way to get some damage on a 'ard target to help activate Blood Scent). Pray to the Allfather that your flyer doesn't get blown to bits. Next turn, disembark your little deathstar, charge and go to town.
I found this image for anyone who can tease more out of it. The big takeaway is that you need to have made a successful charge to make a best 2 of 3d6 charge. But Blood Claws being in Bold means Blood Claws keyword correct? Or no? If its keyword and covers Skyclaws and Swiftclaws I can see this getting more use.
I found this image for anyone who can tease more out of it. The big takeaway is that you need to have made a successful charge to make a best 2 of 3d6 charge. But Blood Claws being in Bold means Blood Claws keyword correct? Or no? If its keyword and covers Skyclaws and Swiftclaws I can see this getting more use.
Well, that's a bummer for the charge stratagem. Makes outflanking even less viable. But yes, it means Blood Claws keyword, so Sky- and Swiftclaws also qualify for this detachment. Question still remains on how to get those safely across the board without deepstriking, they can't all take Storm Shields like Wolf Guard can. Maybe simply swarm the board with Skyclaws because no Stormwolf means you can take 11-15 extra depending on their loadout (kind of creating a SW Vulcha Skwad).
Edit: Although taking Skyclaws means you'll have to take extra Grey Hunter squads to get those shiny Batallion CPs...
For the TWC debate, remember that CA2018 overrides all points from CA2017 AND includes those that did not change. If a point value is not in CA2018, it is gone. The only thing you need CA2017 for is missions and stuff like the land raider (assuming those are not included in CA2018)
2pt TWC storm shields is right now, RAW, barring an FAQ from GW, as they are not characters, and they are "other models".
Fellas, we just became the storm shield book! at 2pt i'll be hard pressed NOT to take a wolf guard pack leader in my troops with SS and power weapon! Lone wolf obsec ++3 with 3 wounds? Yes please! Hell, even just storm shield for shenanigans!
gwarsh41 wrote: For the TWC debate, remember that CA2018 overrides all points from CA2017 AND includes those that did not change. If a point value is not in CA2018, it is gone. The only thing you need CA2017 for is missions and stuff like the land raider (assuming those are not included in CA2018)
2pt TWC storm shields is right now, RAW, barring an FAQ from GW, as they are not characters, and they are "other models".
Fellas, we just became the storm shield book! at 2pt i'll be hard pressed NOT to take a wolf guard pack leader in my troops with SS and power weapon! Lone wolf obsec ++3 with 3 wounds? Yes please! Hell, even just storm shield for shenanigans!
Erm, what? The TWCSS point cost is still in the codex and CA did not overwrite that AFAIK. Unless CA literally lists ALL the point values of EVERY codex, changed or not, which seems highly unlikely to me.
Multiple playtesters who helped work on the book have basically alluded that no Codex in the last ~8 months was included since they were in testing or not written when they did the Chapter Approved 2018 point changes. The only reason Space Wolves get anything right now is because the basic marine stuff changed.
Space Wolves will get their first "true" CA update next year when Drukhari and Knights do, unless they FAQ it first.
Malkyr wrote: Multiple playtesters who helped work on the book have basically alluded that no Codex in the last ~8 months was included since they were in testing or not written when they did the Chapter Approved 2018 point changes. The only reason Space Wolves get anything right now is because the basic marine stuff changed.
Space Wolves will get their first "true" CA update next year when Drukhari and Knights do, unless they FAQ it first.
Ah, thanks for clearing that up
edit: wait, does that mean our wolf guard and terminators are still 16/26 points?
edit: wait, does that mean our wolf guard and terminators are still 16/26 points?
No, CA2018 overrules the Codex entries.
Yes, but thing is apparently SW aren't in CA 2018 (if I'm understanding this correctly) at all and all our point cost reductions are for gear that is avilable to other SM chapters as well (lascannon, SS etc.). And since Wolf Guard =/= Sternguard/ Vanguard Vet etc. (even Wolf Guard Terminators =/= Terminators) they'd still be 16/26 instead of 14/23.
edit: wait, does that mean our wolf guard and terminators are still 16/26 points?
No, CA2018 overrules the Codex entries.
Yes, but thing is apparently SW aren't in CA 2018 (if I'm understanding this correctly) at all and all our point cost reductions are for gear that is avilable to other SM chapters as well (lascannon, SS etc.). And since Wolf Guard =/= Sternguard/ Vanguard Vet etc. (even Wolf Guard Terminators =/= Terminators) they'd still be 16/26 instead of 14/23.
Space wolves are in CA 2018 and it looks like someonw actually thought about it.
Wolf guard 14p
Wolf guard terminators 23p
edit: wait, does that mean our wolf guard and terminators are still 16/26 points?
No, CA2018 overrules the Codex entries.
Yes, but thing is apparently SW aren't in CA 2018 (if I'm understanding this correctly) at all and all our point cost reductions are for gear that is avilable to other SM chapters as well (lascannon, SS etc.). And since Wolf Guard =/= Sternguard/ Vanguard Vet etc. (even Wolf Guard Terminators =/= Terminators) they'd still be 16/26 instead of 14/23.
Space wolves are in CA 2018 and it looks like someonw actually thought about it.
Wolf guard 14p
Wolf guard terminators 23p
Ah, thanks! My understanding was that SW were completely absent from CA points changes, good to see they are not. That only leaves the TWC matter unresolved.
Automatically Appended Next Post: So, attempt at a Stalker Pack list at 1000 points:
Batallion
HQ - Battle Leader with JP, TH/SS Saga of the Savage and Wulfen Stone
- Rune Priest with Jump Pack, Armor of Russ, Runic Axe, Psychic Hood, Stormcaller and Fury of the Wolf Spirits
Troops - 3*5x GH with Chainsword
- 2*1x WGPL with Chainsword and Combi-Bolter
- 1*1x WGPL with Chainsword and Boltgun
Fast Attack - 15x Skyclaws
- Power Fist, TH/SS
Transports - 3x Razorback with Twin Assault Cannon
999 points + 2 CP.
Battle Plan: Deploy Battle Leader, Rune Priest and Skyclaws as a big blob, move forward, Rune Priest uses Stormcaller on them for cover. Razorbacks move up and shoot stuff. Second turn disembark GHs and shoot stuff with them, Razorbacks shoot again, Try to damage some big stuff for the Blood Scent stratagem. JP blob moves up and is hopefully in assault range by now. Charge in Rune Priest, Battle Leader and Skyclaws and chop stuff. From there do as game flow dictates.
Biggest pro of this list is that you can throw a ton of dice with it. Unfortunately it's also woefully low on AT weaponry. I've been thinking about switching the Assault Cannons on the Razorbacks for Lascannons but that leaves me with rather low screen-clearing capability T1. Thoughts?
Is the stalker pack only eligible for narrative play?
I believe all of the formations from CA2018 are fully legal in matched play.
Was it ever resolved whether the armour of Russ relic makes chargers attack last, or as normal?
from the faq
Q: Can the Armour of Russ relic force a charging unit to attack
after all other units have done so?
A: Yes, unless that chosen unit has an ability that allows
it to fight first in the Fight phase, in which case it instead
fights as if it didn’t have that ability
SS matter is not unresolved. CA does NOT include all point values, only those changed. Or do you honestly think we lost Grey Hunters and Blood Claws with the CA (their points are not included among many others)?
Weazel wrote: SS matter is not unresolved. CA does NOT include all point values, only those changed. Or do you honestly think we lost Grey Hunters and Blood Claws with the CA (their points are not included among many others)?
TWCSS is 10pts RAW.
The SS on TWC is tricky though. Because one can assume that the correcting entries are SS for 2 points and SS for characters capped at 10. General SS and SS for TWC merged into a single entry since TWC aren't characters and it was silly to have two different entries. I honestly don't think GW wanted to keep shields for TWC as expensive as character ones, but RAW you may be right. I think it will be clarified though.
Weazel wrote: SS matter is not unresolved. CA does NOT include all point values, only those changed. Or do you honestly think we lost Grey Hunters and Blood Claws with the CA (their points are not included among many others)?
TWCSS is 10pts RAW.
The SS on TWC is tricky though. Because one can assume that the correcting entries are SS for 2 points and SS for characters capped at 10. General SS and SS for TWC merged into a single entry since TWC aren't characters and it was silly to have two different entries. I honestly don't think GW wanted to keep shields for TWC as expensive as character ones, but RAW you may be right. I think it will be clarified though.
Right, I don't know what that other dude thinks RAW means, as CA18 overwrites CA17 in every way until we get an errata that says otherwise. Storm shields on every model that isn't a character are 100% RAW 2pt. Why do people want TWC to stay bad so much? If this is an actual error, and GW left out (Thunderwolf) entry, then we will see it within a week of release. Plus, we should be getting a weeks worth of previews for data sheets and points adjustments, so maybe it will be taken care of then.
With the new style of missions, do you think wolves will favor an alpha strike, or beta?
If TWC storm shields really stay at 2pt, I think we will have the durability and footprint to survive going first. Luckily we have a good amount of speed with TWC and wulfen, both with SS, I think durability is going to be much more appreciated over damage output with the new mission style.
Weazel wrote: SS matter is not unresolved. CA does NOT include all point values, only those changed. Or do you honestly think we lost Grey Hunters and Blood Claws with the CA (their points are not included among many others)?
TWCSS is 10pts RAW.
The SS on TWC is tricky though. Because one can assume that the correcting entries are SS for 2 points and SS for characters capped at 10. General SS and SS for TWC merged into a single entry since TWC aren't characters and it was silly to have two different entries. I honestly don't think GW wanted to keep shields for TWC as expensive as character ones, but RAW you may be right. I think it will be clarified though.
Right, I don't know what that other dude thinks RAW means, as CA18 overwrites CA17 in every way until we get an errata that says otherwise. Storm shields on every model that isn't a character are 100% RAW 2pt. Why do people want TWC to stay bad so much? If this is an actual error, and GW left out (Thunderwolf) entry, then we will see it within a week of release. Plus, we should be getting a weeks worth of previews for data sheets and points adjustments, so maybe it will be taken care of then.
With the new style of missions, do you think wolves will favor an alpha strike, or beta?
If TWC storm shields really stay at 2pt, I think we will have the durability and footprint to survive going first. Luckily we have a good amount of speed with TWC and wulfen, both with SS, I think durability is going to be much more appreciated over damage output with the new mission style.
There has been an actual CODEX between CA17 and CA18 so I'm not really feeling how CA17 has any bearing on the matter whatsoever.
dur, that is on me. I've been comparing CA17 to CA18 looking for points changes. Forgot that CA17 was pre-codex. Well that sucks gak then. TWC having cheaper shields could make them a viable harassment/ lockdown unit. Similar to the role a PBC from death guard plays, but faster and with a larger footprint.
Area denial is something SW could use, but it can't be expensive as TWC currently are with shields, though it has to be as durable as TWC with at least some sort of invul save. We could even use them as a bait unit, similar to how DG terminators are used (and they got a heafty points drop!)
People really just try to keep their hopes up about TWC buff. Weazel has it right.
Our codex has its own entry.
"Storm Shield (Thunderwolf Cavalry)"
If CA2018 does not have exactly the same entry, our Codex entry remains as the standing value.
It's that simple. You can keep hoping that they forgot to include own entry for TWC storm shield, but dont try to bend anywhere further. CA2018 Errata is your next hope for that buff.
Ilgoth wrote: People really just try to keep their hopes up about TWC buff. Weazel has it right.
Our codex has its own entry.
"Storm Shield (Thunderwolf Cavalry)"
If CA2018 does not have exactly the same entry, our Codex entry remains as the standing value.
It's that simple. You can keep hoping that they forgot to include own entry for TWC storm shield, but dont try to bend anywhere further. CA2018 Errata is your next hope for that buff.
Lets just pray that the CA2018 Errata is not withdrawing the 2pts SS for Space Marine / Wolves.
2pts shield is great for us anyway, even though TWC didn't get it. We could have a ton of WG of every kind packing SS, as well as more Wulfen carrying TH/SS.
I find it funny that the wolfen are getting a great deal now with their thunder hammers and storm shields but its twc people are trying to get better. I am with the others who agree RAWtwc stay at 10 pts.
But yeah, i am super happy about wolfen. I am looking at them again thinking "you may just see real use again my friends..."
Are we less competitive after CA2018 just on the basis we “share” point reductions with armies already seeing success and got few unquie reductions? Wolf Guard Storm Shield Spam seems cute, but not being troops means they can’t functionally take the spot of GH... so to squeeze them in your cutting Wulfen or Long Fangs?? Not me!
Most of my list save around 50-75 points but other fractions are seeing a lot more!
So those points can go to more plasmas, or another Long Fang model. Maybe we squeeze in a Swiftclaw unit for objective grabbing??? Just not seeing what to make of these modest point reductions?? Help??
Azuza001 wrote: I find it funny that the wolfen are getting a great deal now with their thunder hammers and storm shields but its twc people are trying to get better. I am with the others who agree RAWtwc stay at 10 pts.
But yeah, i am super happy about wolfen. I am looking at them again thinking "you may just see real use again my friends..."
Well, I simply like TWC better as models and in the fluff than Wulfen So for me it kinda sucks that they aren't very good.
spacewolfguy wrote: Are we less competitive after CA2018 just on the basis we “share” point reductions with armies already seeing success and got few unquie reductions? Wolf Guard Storm Shield Spam seems cute, but not being troops means they can’t functionally take the spot of GH... so to squeeze them in your cutting Wulfen or Long Fangs?? Not me!
Most of my list save around 50-75 points but other fractions are seeing a lot more!
So those points can go to more plasmas, or another Long Fang model. Maybe we squeeze in a Swiftclaw unit for objective grabbing??? Just not seeing what to make of these modest point reductions?? Help??
50-75 is quite a lot though. My lists only saves about 20ish points. 1ppm for 5 WG, 6 points because plasma guns are cheaper, 5 from the bikers WG (cheaper shields) and 12 from the wulfen basically.
-20 points for termies and land raider crusader at 266 points are interesting though. -10 points for the ven dread, but it actually doesn't change much in terms of points available as now the ven dread should be better options than the wulfen one and the list is now 10 points more expensive. Bjorn is 3 points cheaper, yeah. Long fangs now really have other anti tank options that aren't lascannons, this is one of the most interesting thing about CA for SWIMHO.
With the cost changes to missile launchers have they finally pulled ahead of lascannons for long fangs?
I just bought 4 las cannon dudes before CA but now it seems that MLs doing 75% of the job vs kights but now at 75% of the cost firmly tips the balance in their favor (as they are the same against most other targets and they are not completely useless vs hordes).
Am I crazy? Should I stick with las or bite the bullet and pull those ML dudes back out?
spacewolfguy wrote: Are we less competitive after CA2018 just on the basis we “share” point reductions with armies already seeing success and got few unquie reductions? Wolf Guard Storm Shield Spam seems cute, but not being troops means they can’t functionally take the spot of GH... so to squeeze them in your cutting Wulfen or Long Fangs?? Not me!
Most of my list save around 50-75 points but other fractions are seeing a lot more!
So those points can go to more plasmas, or another Long Fang model. Maybe we squeeze in a Swiftclaw unit for objective grabbing??? Just not seeing what to make of these modest point reductions?? Help??
50-75 is quite a lot though. My lists only saves about 20ish points. 1ppm for 5 WG, 6 points because plasma guns are cheaper, 5 from the bikers WG (cheaper shields) and 12 from the wulfen basically.
-20 points for termies and land raider crusader at 266 points are interesting though. -10 points for the ven dread, but it actually doesn't change much in terms of points available as now the ven dread should be better options than the wulfen one and the list is now 10 points more expensive. Bjorn is 3 points cheaper, yeah. Long fangs now really have other anti tank options that aren't lascannons, this is one of the most interesting thing about CA for SWIMHO.
But basically my lists didn't change a bit.
Most of my savings came from Missile Launchers. I’m glad to see that change to finally justify taking them over Lascannon. Lol.
Automatically Appended Next Post: If anyone has opinions on Swiftclaws (post CA) I’d love to hear it. They sure seem like they could be a pretty solid mobile mid-late game objective grabber.
Azuza001 wrote: I find it funny that the wolfen are getting a great deal now with their thunder hammers and storm shields but its twc people are trying to get better. I am with the others who agree RAWtwc stay at 10 pts.
But yeah, i am super happy about wolfen. I am looking at them again thinking "you may just see real use again my friends..."
Wulfen were already good. The problem is their total lack of a supporting cast, which might be smoothed over a bit with CA. Not enough but a bit.
Thunderwolf Cavalry are iconic and fantastic looking models. It makes no sense for a TWC rider to pay character prices for stormshields.
This is a clear oversight by GW, which wouldn't surprise me, given the quality of the SW codex, and how it was errata'd before it even released.
I am glad I play in a less competitive meta, I am having a ton of fun using both my TWC and Wulfen with some good success.
My list is essentially a battallion of barebone Grey Hunters... who I may be able to replace with Intercessors now with points deductions.
1-2 squads of TWC, 4 strong. 2 Frost Axe/SS+2 Wolf Claws, sergeant has a WC.
A team of 3 characters - 1 Wolf lord on TW, 2 WGBL on TW. All with Thunder Hammer + SS. This all moves as a big blob essentially, with the TWC providing a giant wall for my smash characters.
I mix it up from there really. I either add Wulfen and a Stormwolf and fly it around with a supporting character like a Wolf Priest or a Rune Priest. Mayhem and fun is had.
As for the discussion about the benefits we've gotten from CA 2018... I don't see a ton of them, honestly. I am hoping the TWC is an oversight, as the previous points worked. 5/10/15. Now it's suddenly 2/10/10? That doesn't make sense. Especially with other stuff getting such hefty points drops.
Unless... it fits the theme of everything primaris getting cuts but anything with a standard marine, that will be phased out, not getting decent cuts. Perhaps we will see replacement TWC with a primaris version?
bananathug wrote: With the cost changes to missile launchers have they finally pulled ahead of lascannons for long fangs?
I just bought 4 las cannon dudes before CA but now it seems that MLs doing 75% of the job vs kights but now at 75% of the cost firmly tips the balance in their favor (as they are the same against most other targets and they are not completely useless vs hordes).
Am I crazy? Should I stick with las or bite the bullet and pull those ML dudes back out?
What about plasma cannons? They're even cheaper. 6 long fangs with 4 plasma cannons cost like 5 dudes with 3 lascannons.
Missile launchers are solid but I don't like versatile units, I'd take heavy bolters if I need more anti infantry units or lascannons/plasma cannons if I want more anti tank. But that's me, missile launchers were popular even before CA points reductions.
Azuza001 wrote: I find it funny that the wolfen are getting a great deal now with their thunder hammers and storm shields but its twc people are trying to get better. I am with the others who agree RAWtwc stay at 10 pts.
But yeah, i am super happy about wolfen. I am looking at them again thinking "you may just see real use again my friends..."
Wulfen were already good. The problem is their total lack of a supporting cast, which might be smoothed over a bit with CA. Not enough but a bit.
Thunderwolf Cavalry are iconic and fantastic looking models. It makes no sense for a TWC rider to pay character prices for stormshields.
This is a clear oversight by GW, which wouldn't surprise me, given the quality of the SW codex, and how it was errata'd before it even released.
TWC are pricey but not trash, if buffed correctly they are a very effective anti infantry tool. I always bring 3 assault oriented units, and one of them is a wulfen squad, no matter what. The other 2 are chosen among WG with jump packs, bikes, on foot (embarked actually), termies, biggest blob of blood claws or TWC. Occasionally a dread but I mostly play it as a bodyguard for my deploying zone. Arjac to buff all the wolf guards and give the roll results of 1 to wound and a wolf priest (with the wulfen stone) to re-roll all failed hits in combat (helps a lot with wulfen and termies) and heal multiwounds models. On their own close combat units are lackluster, even wulfen can't really go alone.
A TWC dude with 7-9 attacks (Arjac, wulfen/wulfen stone) S5 AP-1 re-rolling 4-6 of them is no joke. With 2 points SS the unit becomes 20 points cheaper basically but with more invulns since you'll probably invest in more shields with that price. I honestly don't see any reason why they shouldn't have the cheap SS like anybody else.
bananathug wrote: With the cost changes to missile launchers have they finally pulled ahead of lascannons for long fangs?
Tempting. They are close to Lascannon effectiveness against T7 units (especially with the amount of invulnerable saves around these days) and much better vs hordes. If you run into T8 units, pop Wolf's Eye and reroll wounds for a 75% damage rate. Plus you get access to the flakk stratagem. I definitely think there is space for a ML or 2 in my LF pack.
CA SPECIFICALLY states that only SS (Characters) and SS (Other models) have been changed.
Intended or not, we will have to wait for the errata. For now, it’s 10 pts.
Automatically Appended Next Post: I think the price of 10 or so pts for SS on TWC makes sense, as it is so much better on a T5 W3 model... so much so that it could be worth the equivallent of on a character.
I'm working on a wolf and lion army and feel bad about putting the plasma cannons in the space wolf detachment but I think with native re-roll 1's, ignore modifiers strat and the +1 to wound for those pesky t8 units I feel they work better for long fangs. 2 units of 5 w/ 4 cannons and a termie WGPL with a storm shield just seem like they straight up shoot better and are more resilient.
I think the numbers work out for the plasma > ML vs all targets per point (16 vs 20 for more avg wounds vs anything but wave serpents but there's the 1/36 chance of blowing myself up, meh better myself than some stinking xeno). Flack and shells strats are nice but "only" running a double bat I'm already out of CP by turn 3 anyways...
These cheaper plasma cannons just strike me as sooo good. Are we sure they are supposed to be in our codex?
CA SPECIFICALLY states that only SS (Characters) and SS (Other models) have been changed.
Intended or not, we will have to wait for the errata. For now, it’s 10 pts.
Automatically Appended Next Post: I think the price of 10 or so pts for SS on TWC makes sense, as it is so much better on a T5 W3 model... so much so that it could be worth the equivallent of on a character.
That may or may not be the case but the point still stands that 40 points for the base model is too much. If that got the same cost reduction as we would've gained from the SS reduction (so it's be 32) I feel TWC would be more or less fine given that we have multiple ways to boost their A stat.
32 with a SS is too cheap. 40 for the base is ok I think, maybe 40 including the shield. One thing that is clearly overcosted and should go down is the Wolf Claw, how can it be more expensive than a fist? It should be 5 points and 7/8 for the pair. So a unit of 5 TWC with shields and claws would be 225-235 points, basically like a pack of wulfen but with an anti infantry role.
Seriously, a weapon that is S5 AP-1 re-rolling wounds is extremely overcosted at 10/14 points. But it's probably the weapon that matches better with the TWC profile and the SW army in general since we already have wulfen and termies that are better equipped with anti tank weapons.
Blackie wrote: 32 with a SS is too cheap. 40 for the base is ok I think, maybe 40 including the shield. One thing that is clearly overcosted and should go down is the Wolf Claw, how can it be more expensive than a fist? It should be 5 points and 7/8 for the pair. So a unit of 5 TWC with shields and claws would be 225-235 points, basically like a pack of wulfen but with an anti infantry role.
Seriously, a weapon that is S5 AP-1 re-rolling wounds is extremely overcosted at 10/14 points. But it's probably the weapon that matches better with the TWC profile and the SW army in general since we already have wulfen and termies that are better equipped with anti tank weapons.
It is in line with Frost Weapons. A Frost Sword is 7pts and has the same stats minus the reroll wounds. Power swords are 4pts now so 5pts for a Wolf Claw would not be in line with that at all. Not saying it's worth 10pts now that Fists are 8 or 9 points, but Frost and Power weapons need an overall discount anyway. Power Sword 3pts, Frost Sword 5pts and Wolf Claw 6-7 points and 10pts for a pair would probably be about right.
errata for our Codex changed Skyclaws "models per unit" value to 5-15, but now CA2018 is saying 5-10 which was original.
Overlook by GW? Why revert?
I dunno, I ran a blob of 15 once and had a good time with it!
For the TWCSS thing, there is a guy on FB who apparently writes for GW saying the TWC stormshield is going down, that is probably why people are still debating it. I'll admit it is why I was so hopeful. I guess we'll find out a week after CA drops when they post the first round of errata for it. If they do go down, it will certainly continue to make Bloodcrushers look woefully terrible. In the past TWC/Bloodcrushers used to be a pretty decent comparison, now... I feel bad for khorne players.
I am playing this army right now, trying it at some small events and seems to work ok.
Vanguard
Wolf lord, jump pack stormshield, hammer, saga of the wulfkin, The wulfen stone
10 WG 10 SB, 10 shields
10 WG 10 SB, 10 shields
10 WG 10 SB, 10 shields
10 WG terminators, 10 SB, 10 shields
10 WG terminators, 10 SB, 10 shields
10 WG terminators, 10 SB, 10 shields
Battalion
Company commander
Company commander
10 infantry
10 infantry
10 infantry
Supreme
WGBL vigilus trait- saga of the savage, jump pack, hammer shield
Arjac
Runepriest
Interesting, i like the wg with sb/ss combo but i put jump packs on mine. Makes them more expensive sure but also makes them more maneuverable. If they get charged they can fall back and still shoot with the jump packs.
How do the terms work out for you? Thats the cheapest/ best way to run them atm for sure, but i would stick a few thunder hammers in there personally for some cc bite vs something big and nasty. Or power swords for anti infantry bite. Do all 10 need ss? Or maybe ss and power sword? They already have a lot of shooting going on.
(Not trying to say how your doing is bad, honestly been thinking that sw terms are the best imperial terms available but not really sure how to run them best)
How do the terms work out for you? Thats the cheapest/ best way to run them atm for sure, but i would stick a few thunder hammers in there personally for some cc bite vs something big and nasty. Or power swords for anti infantry bite. Do all 10 need ss? Or maybe ss and power sword? They already have a lot of shooting going on.
5 dudes, 3TH/SS and 2 Powerfists/stombolters for 191 points. They usually get the benefits from 2+ of these units: arjac, wulfen/character with wulfen stone, wolf priest, wolf lord or battle leader. When I field them they got +2A and some re-rolls everytime. Always deployed using their deep striking ability.
I'm just a bit disappointed that all the power fists and storm shields bitz are for the left hand so the power fist + storm shield combo in not possible without conversions. That's why I use stormbolters, but I'd replace them with storm shields if I could.
I'm just a bit disappointed that all the power fists and storm shields bitz are for the left hand so the power fist + storm shield combo in not possible without conversions. That's why I use stormbolters, but I'd replace them with storm shields if I could.
This is good to know because I plan to run such a squad. I’ll see how I get it done. Most likely have to put shields in right due to fingers.
Got two comp tourneys incoming and both use a mission with Null Field rule (invul saves dont work within objectives). Putting it out there with all SS spams people do now due to CA2018.
Where SW terminators are strong is that not every guy has to waste points on a fist. You can mix and match the squad up. I wouldn’t take more than 2-3 chainfists (for 2 points more they are much better than fists and not far behind hammers)
lare2 wrote: Hoping someone can help clear a quick question up for me.
Recently came across some reivers and thought I would slow grow a force of wolves but I'm confused on how to load.
In the codex is listed a power sword but I can't fugue out who's allowed to take it. It's not listed in the wargear options section.
Any help would be greatly appreciated.
Not even the Reiver Sergeant is allowed a Power Sword. Only Intercessors get the Power Sword/Fist option.
Thanks for the quick response. That's what I was thinking, with battlescribe's help. The fact that it's listed on the reivers' weapon option in the codex is on the misleading side.
Blackie wrote: I'm just a bit disappointed that all the power fists and storm shields bitz are for the left hand so the power fist + storm shield combo in not possible without conversions. That's why I use stormbolters, but I'd replace them with storm shields if I could.
Yeah, that is a bit of a downer. With the recent price drop on Fists, I think they outperform Hammers on a point-for-damage basis. There must be some conversion potential out there.
Niiai wrote: Or not on a thunderwolf? Hiw much is it for them?
Still 10 points. Only because they're a SW only thing and SW codex was too new to be properly included in CA. SW changes are only for things that are shared with SM or equivalent to SM units. Since in the codex shields were 5-10-15 and now they are 2-10-10 it's just a matter of time: TWC storm shields will go down in points, probably 5 or 6 per model, at the next round of FAQs. But at the moment they still cost 10 points.
Yeah chapter approved didnt do much for thunderwolves. It did make wolfen better though. Why get a great axe when you can get a thunder hammer and storm shield for almost the same cost?
Azuza001 wrote: Yeah chapter approved didnt do much for thunderwolves. It did make wolfen better though. Why get a great axe when you can get a thunder hammer and storm shield for almost the same cost?
Same reason for TWC storm shields, because the axe is a SW thing. It's going to be cheaper for sure.
WG termies also became a lot better since GW discounted all their basic price, storm shields and power fists. 5 dudes with all SS/PF are now just 170 points. With arjac and wulfen/wulfen stone character they get 21 attacks hitting on 3s, with probably some re-rolls in both to hit and to wound rolls. All models with 3++ and natural deepstrike. If you want arjac anyway, it sounds like a deal.
Yeah, i like my terms mixed, with mostly storm bolters and storm shields, with 1 assault cannon / ss and a chain fist ss on the srg. Makes it a good little drop in and unload unit that can handle itself in cc if need be.
Azuza001 wrote: Yeah chapter approved didnt do much for thunderwolves. It did make wolfen better though. Why get a great axe when you can get a thunder hammer and storm shield for almost the same cost?
Same reason for TWC storm shields, because the axe is a SW thing. It's going to be cheaper for sure.
WG termies also became a lot better since GW discounted all their basic price, storm shields and power fists. 5 dudes with all SS/PF are now just 170 points. With arjac and wulfen/wulfen stone character they get 21 attacks hitting on 3s, with probably some re-rolls in both to hit and to wound rolls. All models with 3++ and natural deepstrike. If you want arjac anyway, it sounds like a deal.
With Hammers 5 Termies + Arjac is only 350 points... if you're going with Arjac you might as well go full hog on their equipment. Otherwise 170 for a 5-man PF squad sounds very nice.
edit: With all these meta changes remind me to magnetize my next squad though
Niiai wrote: Wait. So stormshields are 2 points? Is not that insane?
Only for squads, not characters (and it is not clear if that prices applies to TWC). The problem is that squads that can takes Storm Shields like Hammernators were almost never seeing play so GW decided to drop the price of the wargear rather than fix the individual squads.
This means some squads that are already competitive got an inadvertent discount on certain builds. Wulfen for example got better as a result. Wolf Guard in PA with Storm Shields also look good on certain builds.
dang, I popped in here hoping that someone had an FAQ from GW about that. As cut and dry as it may seem written, it's still pretty frequently asked about. Honestly the wording in the codex didn't translate well into CA.
I think Long Fangs with PCs accompanied by a battle leader in a drop pod are pretty good in the current meta. Re-roll 1s to hit and wound, ignore to hit penalties, protection from alpha strike and anti-deep strike fire, good range so nearly impossible to wrap against, not too expensive and coming with a decent counter charge possibility.
They will melt dark reapers easily and VS. Knights you could use the long fangs strategum
Ragnar69 wrote: I think Long Fangs with PCs accompanied by a battle leader in a drop pod are pretty good in the current meta. Re-roll 1s to hit and wound, ignore to hit penalties, protection from alpha strike and anti-deep strike fire, good range so nearly impossible to wrap against, not too expensive and coming with a decent counter charge possibility.
They will melt dark reapers easily and VS. Knights you could use the long fangs strategum
It's a lot of points for a suicide unit by time you factor in the cost of the pod and the battle leader.
I prefer embarking them in one of the razorbacks instead of a pod. Some of my lists have the flyer to carry one troop, two razorbacks to carry two other troops and the third razorback to give long fangs some protection from alpha strike. The battle leader looks like a waste if brought just to buff them, use the stratagem that gives that re-roll to wound instead. Or just field a fast battle leader (TWC mount or jump packs) near their tank so they have his aura in turn 1.
My Long Fangs frequently get ignored as opponents target the various CC threats barreling towards their lines. Sometimes investing in defensive measures is worthwhile but sometimes it is better to go all-out aggressive. Make sure every point of your army can do a decent job of killing the enemy and overload him with threats. If my Long Fangs die I suspect it would mean the game was already lost or that my shorter ranged elements are about to make contact with the enemy and take their revenge.
Karhedron wrote: My Long Fangs frequently get ignored as opponents target the various CC threats barreling towards their lines. Sometimes investing in defensive measures is worthwhile but sometimes it is better to go all-out aggressive. Make sure every point of your army can do a decent job of killing the enemy and overload him with threats. If my Long Fangs die I suspect it would mean the game was already lost or that my shorter ranged elements are about to make contact with the enemy and take their revenge.
In my experience long fangs are the priority target for enemy deepstrikers, especially those ones that are kitted with anti infantries or anti elite ranged weapons. Usually the troops are embarked or don't worth the effort of being shot at, while all the other units are tanks, walkers, flyers, 3++ TWC or bikes which all compete to soak the anti tank.
30 shoota boyz will target long fangs first and try to charge some tanks for example. With drukhari I usually let one gunboat to target the enemy back line shooters like devastators/long fangs. A single ravager can delete the entire squad and that's just 1/4 of the ranged anti tank/anti elites available usually.
Niiai wrote: I got the tooth and claw sett. Mostly for the GSC. B I have an old wolf army as well.
Now, what is up with primaris agressors? They and the primaris soldiers seems very odd. The dreadnought is good enough with S9 -4 D2.
I use the Aggressors to outflank together with my Wulfen. Strangely all opponents so far have directed their anti-deepstrike shooting at the 111 points Agressorss instead of the twice as expensive Wulfen. People seem to be very afraid of them so they are a good distraction carnifex.
Karhedron wrote: My Long Fangs frequently get ignored as opponents target the various CC threats barreling towards their lines. Sometimes investing in defensive measures is worthwhile but sometimes it is better to go all-out aggressive. Make sure every point of your army can do a decent job of killing the enemy and overload him with threats. If my Long Fangs die I suspect it would mean the game was already lost or that my shorter ranged elements are about to make contact with the enemy and take their revenge.
In my experience long fangs are the priority target for enemy deepstrikers, especially those ones that are kitted with anti infantries or anti elite ranged weapons. Usually the troops are embarked or don't worth the effort of being shot at, while all the other units are tanks, walkers, flyers, 3++ TWC or bikes which all compete to soak the anti tank.
30 shoota boyz will target long fangs first and try to charge some tanks for example. With drukhari I usually let one gunboat to target the enemy back line shooters like devastators/long fangs. A single ravager can delete the entire squad and that's just 1/4 of the ranged anti tank/anti elites available usually.
And thats why i always take a storm shield on the captain. I had a game where he tanked 7 plasma gun shots and 3 multimelta shots (playing vs death guard). My opponent got so pissed at them he dedicated waaaay WAAAAAY more firepower to killing them than should have been needed, buying the rest of my army almost an entire turn of not getting shot at.
Storm shield for 2pts to give them one 3++ save is totally worth it.
Yeah it's a nice upgrade, pretty useless against units that fire with anti infantries weapons and high rate of fire though. Like a unit of marines with SM and jump packs, they can evaporate the long fangs anyway.
I prefer giving them a tank since tanks aren't priority targets for the enemy anti tank. With three razorbacks and a flyer I can reserve the transport capacity of a tank just for long fangs.
Niiai wrote: I got the tooth and claw sett. Mostly for the GSC. B I have an old wolf army as well.
Now, what is up with primaris agressors? They and the primaris soldiers seems very odd. The dreadnought is good enough with S9 -4 D2.
I use the Aggressors to outflank together with my Wulfen. Strangely all opponents so far have directed their anti-deepstrike shooting at the 111 points Agressorss instead of the twice as expensive Wulfen. People seem to be very afraid of them so they are a good distraction carnifex.
Aggressors are far too expensive to be used as a distraction. I would lean towards the Wulfen Dread for that kinda duty.
What are agressoes goos for? They seem awfull. Purly abtibinfantery except in melee where they are anti tank? Very odd combination. Do we need more shirt ranged anti infantery?
Aggressors are anti infantry units that are tough to hurt and are deviatating vs swarms / small squads while also being nasty in cc.
I have no issues outflanking 3 of them with boltstorm gauntlets, you will be putting out on average 27 bolter shots for 111 pts. Outflanking on them makes a ton of sense, and have krom go with them and you will have a great and scary firebase your opponent cant ignore.
I need to try that sometime. 3 aggressors, 10 grey hunters decked out in plasma, and krom all outflanking in on a side. Thats enough of a "shock" force that it should send your opponent running.
They are tougher to hurt than most infantry, t5 and 2w with 3+ save is better than t4 1w 3+. Maybe i should have said tougher to kill than just tough to kill, its all about what is getting shot at by what. Aggressors wont survive any better vs a whirlwind than a heavy weapon team but they will take the hits from heavy bolters better.
Azuza001 wrote: They are tougher to hurt than most infantry, t5 and 2w with 3+ save is better than t4 1w 3+. Maybe i should have said tougher to kill than just tough to kill, its all about what is getting shot at by what. Aggressors wont survive any better vs a whirlwind than a heavy weapon team but they will take the hits from heavy bolters better.
They're 37 points for T5 3+ W2.
They're NOT tough and I haven't a slightest clue where you get your math from for them to be tough.
Azuza001 wrote: They are tougher to hurt than most infantry, t5 and 2w with 3+ save is better than t4 1w 3+. Maybe i should have said tougher to kill than just tough to kill, its all about what is getting shot at by what. Aggressors wont survive any better vs a whirlwind than a heavy weapon team but they will take the hits from heavy bolters better.
They're 37 points for T5 3+ W2.
They're NOT tough and I haven't a slightest clue where you get your math from for them to be tough.
Dude why is it in every thread you come across so willfuly arrogant? You dont have any idea where my math came from? T5 > T4 so T5 is tougher than T4. Its that simple. Can they take a las cannon to the chest no problem? No. But they are still tougher to wound vs said las cannon than an intercessor or grey hunter.
Yes they are expensive for a few models, and yes they die to concentrated fire, so do most things not a knight and even then a knight can be killed in 1 turn to the right setup of cultists.
If you dont agree with me then fine, you can say that and do it in a way that isnt always so disrespectful and combative. Say why you dont agree, give your own examples, and let others make up their minds based off of both sides of the discussion. You dont have to attack the person who has a different opinion than you all the time.
Azuza001 wrote: They are tougher to hurt than most infantry, t5 and 2w with 3+ save is better than t4 1w 3+. Maybe i should have said tougher to kill than just tough to kill, its all about what is getting shot at by what. Aggressors wont survive any better vs a whirlwind than a heavy weapon team but they will take the hits from heavy bolters better.
They're 37 points for T5 3+ W2.
They're NOT tough and I haven't a slightest clue where you get your math from for them to be tough.
Dude why is it in every thread you come across so willfuly arrogant? You dont have any idea where my math came from? T5 > T4 so T5 is tougher than T4. Its that simple. Can they take a las cannon to the chest no problem? No. But they are still tougher to wound vs said las cannon than an intercessor or grey hunter.
Yes they are expensive for a few models, and yes they die to concentrated fire, so do most things not a knight and even then a knight can be killed in 1 turn to the right setup of cultists.
If you dont agree with me then fine, you can say that and do it in a way that isnt always so disrespectful and combative. Say why you dont agree, give your own examples, and let others make up their minds based off of both sides of the discussion. You dont have to attack the person who has a different opinion than you all the time.
Then please show the math they're tough compared to other units in the codex. I await your results.
I gave a few examples. T5 vs t4. T5 vs heavy bolter gets wounded on a 4. T4 gets wounded on a 3. Therefore its easier to wound the t4 unit and tougher to wound the t5 unit.
T5 vs t4 when getting hit by t4 bolter weapons. T4 wounded on a 4, t5 wounded on a 5. T5 will last longer.
T5 vs t4 when getting hit by overcharged plasma. T5 needs 3 to wounds, t4 needs 2's.
These are all common things that people see in the game and shouldn't have to be explained. T5 is tougher to wound than t4 against a lot of things seen in the game. Against other weapon strengths it doesnt matter, str 3, str 6, and str 7 dont care. Str 4, 5, 8, and 9 the t5 is better.
And once again my point is you dont want to show why you think your right, you prefer to just tell others they are wrong. Asking me to provide more proof without giving any of your own is the point.
We are 24 pages in. I am sure some one did the math on primarises at one point. I am not saying that you need to do it, but I am sure some one has done them at some point.
What we need to know is how much more it will survive based upon the popints we pay for the model. If it is harder to kill then 2 grey hunters (or 2 blood claws) it would need to ve divided by the point cost of the wounds. A wound to point comparison.
How ever, the "primaris problem" in 8th edition is 2 wound weapons. Instead they should have 1 wound, like grey hunters where the second wound is wasted. You also mentioned the lascannon. Lascannons are better vs 2 wound models then 1 wound grey hunters. Even if you wound GH on 2+ and primaries on 3+.
If you are lucky your codex have 3 wound models like the tyranid warrior where plasma weapons are bad. (The infamus leviathan tyranid warrior even has 6+++ for a chance to mess up 3 damage weapons.)
While that is primaries in general, I am having a very hard way to see what the primaries agressors are gonne be used for. It is anti infantery, and then anti tank in melee?
I will say this though: The SM codex is better for primaries then regular codexes thanks to the outflank stratgem. It fixes the transport problem.
Azuza001 wrote: I gave a few examples. T5 vs t4. T5 vs heavy bolter gets wounded on a 4. T4 gets wounded on a 3. Therefore its easier to wound the t4 unit and tougher to wound the t5 unit.
T5 vs t4 when getting hit by t4 bolter weapons. T4 wounded on a 4, t5 wounded on a 5. T5 will last longer.
T5 vs t4 when getting hit by overcharged plasma. T5 needs 3 to wounds, t4 needs 2's.
These are all common things that people see in the game and shouldn't have to be explained. T5 is tougher to wound than t4 against a lot of things seen in the game. Against other weapon strengths it doesnt matter, str 3, str 6, and str 7 dont care. Str 4, 5, 8, and 9 the t5 is better.
And once again my point is you dont want to show why you think your right, you prefer to just tell others they are wrong. Asking me to provide more proof without giving any of your own is the point.
That's why I asked for the actual math behind it.
One Aggressor is the same price as 3 Grey Hunters for all intents and purposes. 3 individual T4 3+ wounds is more durable than 2 T5 3+ wounds, especially when those wounds are confined onto a single model (making multiple damage weapons significantly more efficient). You can also look at Intercessors as an even more extreme example, where two separate models with T4 W2 3+ is essentially double the durability of one model with T5 W2 3+.
This operates on the principle of how usually more wounds is going to serve you better.
I'm not saying Aggressors are not offensively capable. I'm saying to call them a distraction carnifex with their durability is, like, completely wrong.
And what i am saying is if that's what you mean you should say that. When you just say "your wrong, prove me wrong " it comes out offensive and not helpful for anyone reading the topic.
From actual gameplay I have found aggressors to be quite durable for space wolves. When the team outflanks it comes in with a garunteed 1 turn of full fire capability. I have seen 3 teams of 3 man aggressors win games coming in t3 and just wiping the floor with whats left on the field, leaving what's left with a hard pressed case of how to deal with them. Outflanking makes sure that they will get 1 turn of shooting unmolested. When they come in they will crush whatever infantry they are near thanks to pure weight of fire.
I am not saying they can just walk up the field and be a viable threat. They really need to outflank. But once they do, and once they kill whatever infantry was within 18" when they did come in they do at that point become a serious issue that light infantry should then have a problem with. Meta wise anything someone would devote to them at this point is something that probably would have been better fighting something else. And if they do get blown away what it takes is pretty silly. You either devote enough firepower to garuntee the unit is dead the waisting shots or you dont and risk someone surviving. Either way its a win for you if you start dictating what your opponent has to do in their turn.
Again maybe tough to kill was a bad choice of words, i admit that. But tougher to kill than alternative options i stand by. If you outflank in and dont shoot at the squad with plasma guns near you then you deserve to lose the unit. But honestly when you come in your main goal should be to wipe out anything in range that would be a serious threat to the aggressors. If you cant pull that off dont drop them in at that location.
im not sure where i should look to find the answer but weird rules question in the index a rune priest on bike only knows 1 power and there is no option for him in codex. Does he only know 1 power or was it updated like everything else to know two powers ?
Automatically Appended Next Post: As for Agressors.
I think the main point which is absolutely true is that they are a good distraction canifex..........tough not so much but they cant be ignored in most cases if you position the outflank well.
Threat of double tap and threat of powerfist stats in melee mean not many armies can just ignore them.
Q: The points cost for a ‘Storm shield (Thunderwolf Cavalry)’
does not appear in the Space Wolves section of the updated
points values in Chapter Approved: 2018 Edition, but there
is an entry for ‘Storm shield (other models)’. What points value
should I use for my Thunderwolf Cavalry models?
A: Use the value in Codex: Space Wolves: 10 points
per model.
Yeah, I just read that and I was PISSED! Why should TWC have to pay character prices for Storm Shields? It's like they don't want people to play them or something.
ZergSmasher wrote: Yeah, I just read that and I was PISSED! Why should TWC have to pay character prices for Storm Shields? It's like they don't want people to play them or something.
Probably because 2 points for the Storm Shield is ABSURD in the first place? It's really only an item you take some of, not on everyone.
ZergSmasher wrote: Yeah, I just read that and I was PISSED! Why should TWC have to pay character prices for Storm Shields? It's like they don't want people to play them or something.
Probably because 2 points for the Storm Shield is ABSURD in the first place? It's really only an item you take some of, not on everyone.
5 points would be okay since others get it for 2, but 10 seems a bit high considering the TWC are 40ppm base. TWC also have a lot of limitations that restrict their usefulness already, such as not being able to go up floors in ruins. That alone is probably a deal breaker, but not getting cheaper storm shields when everyone else does hurts them.
Maybe the way to go is to take 6 man units, give 3 of them Storm Shields and the others just chainswords (maybe 2 chainswords for more attacks) and take a Power Fist on the leader to enable the unit to hurt bigger stuff (not that they should be going after big stuff, but if a Knight charges them it'd be nice to be able to do a few wounds).
ZergSmasher wrote: Yeah, I just read that and I was PISSED! Why should TWC have to pay character prices for Storm Shields? It's like they don't want people to play them or something.
Probably because 2 points for the Storm Shield is ABSURD in the first place? It's really only an item you take some of, not on everyone.
5 points would be okay since others get it for 2, but 10 seems a bit high considering the TWC are 40ppm base. TWC also have a lot of limitations that restrict their usefulness already, such as not being able to go up floors in ruins. That alone is probably a deal breaker, but not getting cheaper storm shields when everyone else does hurts them.
Maybe the way to go is to take 6 man units, give 3 of them Storm Shields and the others just chainswords (maybe 2 chainswords for more attacks) and take a Power Fist on the leader to enable the unit to hurt bigger stuff (not that they should be going after big stuff, but if a Knight charges them it'd be nice to be able to do a few wounds).
My typically mantra is 1 Shield per three dudes, so for a six man you would only need 2 Shields. It cuts down on cost and should be just the amount to tank the bigger stuff shot their way.
ZergSmasher wrote: Yeah, I just read that and I was PISSED! Why should TWC have to pay character prices for Storm Shields? It's like they don't want people to play them or something.
Probably because 2 points for the Storm Shield is ABSURD in the first place? It's really only an item you take some of, not on everyone.
5 points would be okay since others get it for 2, but 10 seems a bit high considering the TWC are 40ppm base. TWC also have a lot of limitations that restrict their usefulness already, such as not being able to go up floors in ruins. That alone is probably a deal breaker, but not getting cheaper storm shields when everyone else does hurts them.
Maybe the way to go is to take 6 man units, give 3 of them Storm Shields and the others just chainswords (maybe 2 chainswords for more attacks) and take a Power Fist on the leader to enable the unit to hurt bigger stuff (not that they should be going after big stuff, but if a Knight charges them it'd be nice to be able to do a few wounds).
TWC also took a massive hit in versatility this edition since the damage of their attacks is no longer tied to the buff from the wolf. We've basically ended up with a unit that's durable and expensive like heavy infantry, but who are only really good at killing light hordes, and even then they're just not going to get their points back.
That's only because CA didn't include SW properly, just things that were in common with SM.
Storm shields for TWC have their own unique entry on the codex, it's not something shared with SM and they'll soon get a new points value when all the other SW stuff will be included in a round of FAQs.
After all if the codex says 15 points for characters, 10 for TWC and 5 for other dudes and now it's 10 for characters and 2 for other dudes I don't see any reason not to put TWC shields at 5-6 points. A 40ppm TWC certainly doesn't have the same value of a character, his shield must be cheaper.
Frost weapons did not get a price reduction. There is no reason to take them when they're in the power-fist ballpark. The cheapest frost weapon i think is the sword, which is only 2 points less than the power fist.
SW dreadnoughts like Wulfen Dreads didn't see a price reduction because they aren't a copy-paste from SM. They are unusable.
Our characters didn't see a price reduction either. Murderfang is essentially the same cost as the Loyal32 in its entirety. Wut?
Wolf Guard Pack Leaders are still 16 points, when Wolf Guard are 14 points by default. This makes no sense at all.
And of course storm shields for TWC are obscene. Even with 2 point stormshields TWC aren't something you'd include in every list, or probably at all. 40 points base for 2 attacks, and 3 wolf attacks but tied to the CAVALRY keyword? It's just generally not worth it. And the price goes up if you want anything besides a chainsword? Yuck.
What's the opinion on termies wg after CA.
PF+ss at 34pts
PA+ss at 30pts
Looks like could have some punch with Arjac around.
With wulfen saga lord and wolf saga battle leader, with a wulfen stone sprinkled on top, you could be looking at 6 attacks each in a perfect world, most likely 3-4.
5 dudes with PF+SS at 170 points are a valid unit. Of course they need to be supported but SW should always have 2-3 punching units and 1-2 punching characters.
Frost weapons did not get a price reduction. There is no reason to take them when they're in the power-fist ballpark. The cheapest frost weapon i think is the sword, which is only 2 points less than the power fist.
SW dreadnoughts like Wulfen Dreads didn't see a price reduction because they aren't a copy-paste from SM. They are unusable.
Our characters didn't see a price reduction either. Murderfang is essentially the same cost as the Loyal32 in its entirety. Wut?
Wolf Guard Pack Leaders are still 16 points, when Wolf Guard are 14 points by default. This makes no sense at all.
And of course storm shields for TWC are obscene. Even with 2 point stormshields TWC aren't something you'd include in every list, or probably at all. 40 points base for 2 attacks, and 3 wolf attacks but tied to the CAVALRY keyword? It's just generally not worth it. And the price goes up if you want anything besides a chainsword? Yuck.
Space Wolves are not included in CA, our Codex came out too close to it. It was announced awhile back that we'll receive points changes in FAQ 1 I think?
I was disappointed by the change BUT... it means Wulfen just get another buff, so no big deal IMO. TWC are cool and I will use them in fun games but when I plan on smashing I'll bring the Wulfen out.
It also improves our Wolf Guard and WG Termies... storm shields + power fists makes them cheap, durable and brutal in combat with our charge. Stick Arjac with them. I am now retooling my army to be centered around Primaris infantry and Wolf Guard veterans. Wolf guard will be Jump pack ss/sb and regular with ss/frost sword. Then a termie squad. Arjac gives them all +1 attack. Intercessors to hold ground while all that stuff moves up.
Azuza001 wrote: They are tougher to hurt than most infantry, t5 and 2w with 3+ save is better than t4 1w 3+. Maybe i should have said tougher to kill than just tough to kill, its all about what is getting shot at by what. Aggressors wont survive any better vs a whirlwind than a heavy weapon team but they will take the hits from heavy bolters better.
They're 37 points for T5 3+ W2.
They're NOT tough and I haven't a slightest clue where you get your math from for them to be tough.
Dude why is it in every thread you come across so willfuly arrogant? You dont have any idea where my math came from? T5 > T4 so T5 is tougher than T4. Its that simple. Can they take a las cannon to the chest no problem? No. But they are still tougher to wound vs said las cannon than an intercessor or grey hunter.
Yes they are expensive for a few models, and yes they die to concentrated fire, so do most things not a knight and even then a knight can be killed in 1 turn to the right setup of cultists.
If you dont agree with me then fine, you can say that and do it in a way that isnt always so disrespectful and combative. Say why you dont agree, give your own examples, and let others make up their minds based off of both sides of the discussion. You dont have to attack the person who has a different opinion than you all the time.
Then please show the math they're tough compared to other units in the codex. I await your results.
T5 rarely gets doubled out, that’s about as good as it gets.
Getting wounded on 3+ rather than 2+ by a Las Canon is always nice.
Getting wounded on 4+ rather than 3+ by a H Bolter is always nice.
Getting wounded on 5+ rather than 4+ by Stubbers and Bolters is nice too.
My local meta laughs at invulnerable saves and T5 because my opponents armies are spewing Mortal Wounds or masses of S3 0AP shots not that I’m bitter or anything, maybe his opponents are mostly Marine and Orc armies.
I’m running Whirlwinds and Stormhawk Interceptors enforced by clawed Terminators rather than Wolves of any kind.
Azuza001 wrote: They are tougher to hurt than most infantry, t5 and 2w with 3+ save is better than t4 1w 3+. Maybe i should have said tougher to kill than just tough to kill, its all about what is getting shot at by what. Aggressors wont survive any better vs a whirlwind than a heavy weapon team but they will take the hits from heavy bolters better.
They're 37 points for T5 3+ W2.
They're NOT tough and I haven't a slightest clue where you get your math from for them to be tough.
Dude why is it in every thread you come across so willfuly arrogant? You dont have any idea where my math came from? T5 > T4 so T5 is tougher than T4. Its that simple. Can they take a las cannon to the chest no problem? No. But they are still tougher to wound vs said las cannon than an intercessor or grey hunter.
Yes they are expensive for a few models, and yes they die to concentrated fire, so do most things not a knight and even then a knight can be killed in 1 turn to the right setup of cultists.
If you dont agree with me then fine, you can say that and do it in a way that isnt always so disrespectful and combative. Say why you dont agree, give your own examples, and let others make up their minds based off of both sides of the discussion. You dont have to attack the person who has a different opinion than you all the time.
Then please show the math they're tough compared to other units in the codex. I await your results.
T5 rarely gets doubled out, that’s about as good as it gets.
Getting wounded on 3+ rather than 2+ by a Las Canon is always nice.
Getting wounded on 4+ rather than 3+ by a H Bolter is always nice.
Getting wounded on 5+ rather than 4+ by Stubbers and Bolters is nice too.
My local meta laughs at invulnerable saves and T5 because my opponents armies are spewing Mortal Wounds or masses of S3 0AP shots not that I’m bitter or anything, maybe his opponents are mostly Marine and Orc armies.
I’m running Whirlwinds and Stormhawk Interceptors enforced by clawed Terminators rather than Wolves of any kind.
And all that only matters when you're cheap enough is the point bring made. Aggressors are offensively capable but we can't pretend they're durable in any sense of the word, because they aren't.
If your group allows Index options, WG Stormbolter bikers just got slightly more viable. Getting full shots at 24" with the Beta Bolters rule they are now less likely to be shut down by getting charged. Previously you had to get within 12" to get full shots which is danger close.
COLD CASH wrote: Also wolf-guard terms with sb/ss is 133 points.
That is a ridiculously cheap and durable unit. Imagine tarpitting backline with that unit.
At that point I'd go with the 170 points squad, full PF/SS, so they can actually kill something. 20 bolters shots aren't that scary, it's 5-6 cheap troops killed, zero damage or maybe 1W to the armored stuff.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Weazel wrote: If your group allows Index options, WG Stormbolter bikers just got slightly more viable. Getting full shots at 24" with the Beta Bolters rule they are now less likely to be shut down by getting charged. Previously you had to get within 12" to get full shots which is danger close.
Yeah I already loved them as they were amazing to create holes for wulfen or WG termies and getting closer wasn't tipycally a issue as I usually bring 2-3 melee units to support them. Actually they are the support for the melee units. The issue was that they may not be in rapid fire range in turn 1, now they fire their max shots pretty much every time.
Space wolves infsntery in 5th editon and 6th editonnliked to fight 12" away with theyr rapid fire and counter attack. The new beta bolter rule would benefit us a lot, no?
Niiai wrote: Space wolves infsntery in 5th editon and 6th editonnliked to fight 12" away with theyr rapid fire and counter attack. The new beta bolter rule would benefit us a lot, no?
Absolutely it would benefit. The key thing to remember though is you'll mostly want to be on the move. It just helps the 1 or 2 times you aren't.
COLD CASH wrote: Also wolf-guard terms with sb/ss is 133 points.
That is a ridiculously cheap and durable unit. Imagine tarpitting backline with that unit.
You don't even need to go for full squads. A WGPL in TDA with SS/SB is just 27 points and adds a huge amount of tankiness to your GH packs and now adds some decent firepower too. Given that CA2018 missions emphasize the importance of keeping Troop units alive to score, adding a single model with 2W, 2+/3++ for the cost of 2 extra bodies seems like a good deal.
Weazel wrote: If your group allows Index options, WG Stormbolter bikers just got slightly more viable. Getting full shots at 24" with the Beta Bolters rule they are now less likely to be shut down by getting charged. Previously you had to get within 12" to get full shots which is danger close.
An I reading the bolter rule wrong or can bikes, termies, and vehicles move and still shoot all there bolter shots? If so I have ten of the wolf guard bikers with Ss/SB that will be seeing play again.
I don't see how codex marines get as much milage out of it. Deathwatch is probably the only ones who end up in a better position over us, but even then looking at the whole army we are still better.
Incognito15 wrote: So I was going through my closet and found 13 thunderwolves.
If I was to run:
Wolf Lord
4x Twolves
4x Twolves
4x Twolves
How would you equip them as this will be a big part of my army.
Thunder Hammers?
Cheap chainswords?
Thanks for the help!
My personal feeling is running 2x frost claws and 2x sword/board axe/board. Makes them durable enough to trudge up the board and fits their duality. Wolf Lord on TWC gets the hammer and wrecks anything and everything with it.
So from my glances at the LVO, I didn't see any Space Wolves in there lol. Course I don't think I saw smash captains either?
Incognito15 wrote: So I was going through my closet and found 13 thunderwolves.
If I was to run:
Wolf Lord
4x Twolves
4x Twolves
4x Twolves
How would you equip them as this will be a big part of my army.
Thunder Hammers?
Cheap chainswords?
Thanks for the help!
My personal feeling is running 2x frost claws and 2x sword/board axe/board. Makes them durable enough to trudge up the board and fits their duality. Wolf Lord on TWC gets the hammer and wrecks anything and everything with it.
So from my glances at the LVO, I didn't see any Space Wolves in there lol. Course I don't think I saw smash captains either?
There were some Space Wolves lists, but I don't think any of them did that well.
So my brother and I are playing a game tomorrow and he is bringing his demons. He will either be bringing nurgle or khorne and will have at least 1 greater demon and a couple princes, plus smaller gribblies like plague bearers or blood letters. I'm bringing a fun all comer list not a try hard list. That being said. What kinds of tricks should I look out for?
Below is my list. My plan is to outflank the wulfen and use them to go after tough targets. The bikes will shoot down low T models and the wolfguard are for engaging heavy infantry. The long fangs are there to shoot what needs to turn into goo.
Rune Priest [7 PL, 131pts]: 3. Murderous Hurricane, 4. Fury of the Wolf Spirits, Jump Packs, Psychic hood, Runic axe, Saga of the Wolfkin, Storm bolter, The Armour of Russ, Warlord
Wolf Priest [6 PL, 99pts]: Jump Packs, Storm bolter, The Wulfen Stone
+ Elites +
Wolf Guard [18 PL, 288pts]: Jump Packs
. Wolf Guard: Storm bolter, Storm shield
. Wolf Guard: Storm bolter, Storm shield
. Wolf Guard: Storm bolter, Storm shield
. Wolf Guard: Storm bolter, Wolf claw
. Wolf Guard: Storm bolter, Wolf claw
. Wolf Guard: Storm bolter, Wolf claw
. Wolf Guard: Storm shield, Wolf claw
. Wolf Guard: Storm shield, Wolf claw
. Wolf Guard: Storm shield, Wolf claw
. Wolf Guard Pack Leader: Wolf Claw (Pair)
Wolf Guard on Bikes [28 PL, 365pts] . Wolf Guard on Bike: Storm bolter, Storm shield
. . Bike: Twin boltgun
. Wolf Guard on Bike: Storm bolter, Storm shield
. . Bike: Twin boltgun
. Wolf Guard on Bike: Storm bolter, Storm shield
. . Bike: Twin boltgun
. Wolf Guard on Bike: Storm bolter, Storm shield
. . Bike: Twin boltgun
. Wolf Guard on Bike: Storm bolter, Storm shield
. . Bike: Twin boltgun
. Wolf Guard on Bike: Storm bolter, Storm shield
. . Bike: Twin boltgun
. Wolf Guard on Bike: Storm bolter, Storm shield
. . Bike: Twin boltgun
. Wolf Guard on Bike: Storm bolter, Storm shield
. . Bike: Twin boltgun
. Wolf Guard on Bike Pack Leader: Bolt Pistol, Frost sword, Storm bolter
. . Bike: Twin boltgun
TheunlikelyGamer wrote: So my brother and I are playing a game tomorrow and he is bringing his demons. He will either be bringing nurgle or khorne and will have at least 1 greater demon and a couple princes, plus smaller gribblies like plague bearers or blood letters. I'm bringing a fun all comer list not a try hard list. That being said. What kinds of tricks should I look out for?
Below is my list. My plan is to outflank the wulfen and use them to go after tough targets. The bikes will shoot down low T models and the wolfguard are for engaging heavy infantry. The long fangs are there to shoot what needs to turn into goo.
Rune Priest [7 PL, 131pts]: 3. Murderous Hurricane, 4. Fury of the Wolf Spirits, Jump Packs, Psychic hood, Runic axe, Saga of the Wolfkin, Storm bolter, The Armour of Russ, Warlord
Wolf Priest [6 PL, 99pts]: Jump Packs, Storm bolter, The Wulfen Stone
+ Elites +
Wolf Guard [18 PL, 288pts]: Jump Packs
. Wolf Guard: Storm bolter, Storm shield
. Wolf Guard: Storm bolter, Storm shield
. Wolf Guard: Storm bolter, Storm shield
. Wolf Guard: Storm bolter, Wolf claw
. Wolf Guard: Storm bolter, Wolf claw
. Wolf Guard: Storm bolter, Wolf claw
. Wolf Guard: Storm shield, Wolf claw
. Wolf Guard: Storm shield, Wolf claw
. Wolf Guard: Storm shield, Wolf claw
. Wolf Guard Pack Leader: Wolf Claw (Pair)
Wolf Guard on Bikes [28 PL, 365pts] . Wolf Guard on Bike: Storm bolter, Storm shield
. . Bike: Twin boltgun
. Wolf Guard on Bike: Storm bolter, Storm shield
. . Bike: Twin boltgun
. Wolf Guard on Bike: Storm bolter, Storm shield
. . Bike: Twin boltgun
. Wolf Guard on Bike: Storm bolter, Storm shield
. . Bike: Twin boltgun
. Wolf Guard on Bike: Storm bolter, Storm shield
. . Bike: Twin boltgun
. Wolf Guard on Bike: Storm bolter, Storm shield
. . Bike: Twin boltgun
. Wolf Guard on Bike: Storm bolter, Storm shield
. . Bike: Twin boltgun
. Wolf Guard on Bike: Storm bolter, Storm shield
. . Bike: Twin boltgun
. Wolf Guard on Bike Pack Leader: Bolt Pistol, Frost sword, Storm bolter
. . Bike: Twin boltgun
Without Tzeentch in his force he won't have shooting and he especially won't have back line units that your Wulfen will outflank on. Whether it is a GUO or Bloodthirster - he will be pushing them forward to you. Both Nurgle and Khorne, Slaanesh as well are melee based. Tzeentch is the Daemon who shoots.
I would keep them back with your main force out of line of sight and shoot at him with your bikes and longfangs as he rumbles towards you, pouncing with the wulfen on a big target where possible. It is likely he will try to bloodletter bomb you if he is bringing Khorne as well. Basically a big blob of VERY choppy daemons who get a 3D6 charge when they come in from deep strike.
The only answer to that is to screen your units so that he cannot consolidate into things and be able to fight again with a big charge. That will be very difficult for you with the list you've brought but it's the best answer.
TheunlikelyGamer wrote: So my brother and I are playing a game tomorrow and he is bringing his demons. He will either be bringing nurgle or khorne and will have at least 1 greater demon and a couple princes, plus smaller gribblies like plague bearers or blood letters. I'm bringing a fun all comer list not a try hard list. That being said. What kinds of tricks should I look out for?
Below is my list. My plan is to outflank the wulfen and use them to go after tough targets. The bikes will shoot down low T models and the wolfguard are for engaging heavy infantry. The long fangs are there to shoot what needs to turn into goo.
Rune Priest [7 PL, 131pts]: 3. Murderous Hurricane, 4. Fury of the Wolf Spirits, Jump Packs, Psychic hood, Runic axe, Saga of the Wolfkin, Storm bolter, The Armour of Russ, Warlord
Wolf Priest [6 PL, 99pts]: Jump Packs, Storm bolter, The Wulfen Stone
+ Elites +
Wolf Guard [18 PL, 288pts]: Jump Packs
. Wolf Guard: Storm bolter, Storm shield
. Wolf Guard: Storm bolter, Storm shield
. Wolf Guard: Storm bolter, Storm shield
. Wolf Guard: Storm bolter, Wolf claw
. Wolf Guard: Storm bolter, Wolf claw
. Wolf Guard: Storm bolter, Wolf claw
. Wolf Guard: Storm shield, Wolf claw
. Wolf Guard: Storm shield, Wolf claw
. Wolf Guard: Storm shield, Wolf claw
. Wolf Guard Pack Leader: Wolf Claw (Pair)
Wolf Guard on Bikes [28 PL, 365pts] . Wolf Guard on Bike: Storm bolter, Storm shield
. . Bike: Twin boltgun
. Wolf Guard on Bike: Storm bolter, Storm shield
. . Bike: Twin boltgun
. Wolf Guard on Bike: Storm bolter, Storm shield
. . Bike: Twin boltgun
. Wolf Guard on Bike: Storm bolter, Storm shield
. . Bike: Twin boltgun
. Wolf Guard on Bike: Storm bolter, Storm shield
. . Bike: Twin boltgun
. Wolf Guard on Bike: Storm bolter, Storm shield
. . Bike: Twin boltgun
. Wolf Guard on Bike: Storm bolter, Storm shield
. . Bike: Twin boltgun
. Wolf Guard on Bike: Storm bolter, Storm shield
. . Bike: Twin boltgun
. Wolf Guard on Bike Pack Leader: Bolt Pistol, Frost sword, Storm bolter
. . Bike: Twin boltgun
Without Tzeentch in his force he won't have shooting and he especially won't have back line units that your Wulfen will outflank on. Whether it is a GUO or Bloodthirster - he will be pushing them forward to you. Both Nurgle and Khorne, Slaanesh as well are melee based. Tzeentch is the Daemon who shoots.
I would keep them back with your main force out of line of sight and shoot at him with your bikes and longfangs as he rumbles towards you, pouncing with the wulfen on a big target where possible. It is likely he will try to bloodletter bomb you if he is bringing Khorne as well. Basically a big blob of VERY choppy daemons who get a 3D6 charge when they come in from deep strike.
The only answer to that is to screen your units so that he cannot consolidate into things and be able to fight again with a big charge. That will be very difficult for you with the list you've brought but it's the best answer.
Thanks for the tips. I think the countercharge with the wulfen may be best. He has told me stories in the past of games where he has used epidemius well. He may be a unit worth keeping away from me. I have also been toying around with dropping some points and trading out the wolf priest for a hammer lord on wolf. If I give the wolflord the wolfkin trait and the wulfen stone he would have 6 S 10 attacks hitting on 2s after charge and rerolling 1s.
Thanks for the tips. I think the countercharge with the wulfen may be best. He has told me stories in the past of games where he has used epidemius well. He may be a unit worth keeping away from me. I have also been toying around with dropping some points and trading out the wolf priest for a hammer lord on wolf. If I give the wolflord the wolfkin trait and the wulfen stone he would have 6 S 10 attacks hitting on 2s after charge and rerolling 1s.
I am a big fan of a Wolf lord with a SS/TH. Particularly if he is on a Thunder Wolf. A jetpack works as well! The Wulfen +1 attack doesn't stack with the wulfen stone sadly, but it would with his warlord trait! And if he kills 5 models, then it becomes a buff that works with it as well for every unit around him!
Don't forget about our heroic intervention rule as well. It's a 6" heroic intervention and you can do it whether he charges you or doesn't! It's a free 6" charge in his charge phase essentially.
Thanks for the tips. I think the countercharge with the wulfen may be best. He has told me stories in the past of games where he has used epidemius well. He may be a unit worth keeping away from me. I have also been toying around with dropping some points and trading out the wolf priest for a hammer lord on wolf. If I give the wolflord the wolfkin trait and the wulfen stone he would have 6 S 10 attacks hitting on 2s after charge and rerolling 1s.
I am a big fan of a Wolf lord with a SS/TH. Particularly if he is on a Thunder Wolf. A jetpack works as well! The Wulfen +1 attack doesn't stack with the wulfen stone sadly, but it would with his warlord trait! And if he kills 5 models, then it becomes a buff that works with it as well for every unit around him!
Don't forget about our heroic intervention rule as well. It's a 6" heroic intervention and you can do it whether he charges you or doesn't! It's a free 6" charge in his charge phase essentially.
So I won. He brought 2 bloodthirsters, Skarbrand, 3x10 blood letters, kharn, 2x 10 berserkers. I saved the wulfen for the counter charge and they killed two blood thrusters but also died saving the long fangs from the thristers. The lord HI'd into skarbrand when he charged the bikes killing skarbrand in single handedly in 1 rd of combat. The rest of the battle saw me moving and shooting his units to bits until the managed to kill all the bikes. The lord and Rune priest finished all the zerkers and the long fangs melted kharn. I also won on objectives 6-3
Yes the tips worked. I hadn't played my wolves in months. I've been playing my deathwatch. It was nice playing the wolves again as even though my Deathwatch are amazing nothing is more gratifying then destroying things in melee.
TheunlikelyGamer wrote: Yes the tips worked. I hadn't played my wolves in months. I've been playing my deathwatch. It was nice playing the wolves again as even though my Deathwatch are amazing nothing is more gratifying then destroying things in melee.
Glad it worked out for you! They're definitely fun to play, especially our beat stick melee characters. How did you like the wolf guard bikers? I am personally not a fan of bikes, mostly an aesthetic thing. I prefer MSU wolf guard squads in razorbacks with assault cannons. Give them all frost swords and storm shields.
I love the bikers I've been using them since eighth edition began with great success. Only now they're cheaper so I give all of them storm shield's except the leader. T5. 2W and a storm shield can tank some decent damage. Plus each guy puts out eight shots with storm bolters each. We use the new Bolter beta a rule so they could shoot all their shots at 24 inches even after they moved 14! Super good . With the number of shots they were putting out each turn I was even hurting high toughness models when I had no other options to shoot at . I only took eight so that's 64 shots
Can Grey Hunters be used as decent fighting force or are there there really just to fill out the Battalion requirement of 3 troops choices? In other words, is it worthwhile to outfit them with special weapons or just all Bolters and Chainsords to keep points low?
For that matter, which troops are seeing the most success on the tabletop for Space Wolves? Intercessors, Grey Hunters, or Blood Claws? Personally, I'm leaning towards Intercessors just because the basic tactical statline is not good enough for 13 points a dude. I do think GH and BC are better than their vanilla counterparts for sure, though.
It depends. If it isn't a problem that they are foot slogging then take Intercessors. If you need transports then Grey Hunters with plasma guns. BCs are IMHO never worth it. Yes, they have an additional attack when charging. But GHs have an additional shot before charging so that equals out and they are more flexible as they have a greater threat range.
I have had a lot of success with my space wolves running the following with my grey hunters.
3 x 10 man squad, 1wgbl with combi plasma, 2 w/ plasma guns and chainswords, 1 w/ plasma pistol and chainsword, 6 w/ bolter and chainsword.
Outflank all of them and a wolf lord (or Krom because for the slight cost increase he is totally worth it) and then drop them in where needed turn 2 or 3.
The way this works is simple, what you start on the board has to be tough as nails to survive the initial hit from your opponent while also being strong enough to blow a hole in a flank or in their back line to allow these guys to come in where they want.
I do it by running 3 predators w/ autocannons and heavy bolters, 3 vindicators, and 3 whirlwinds with castellen launchers. Add Njal, a wolf guard battle leader, and a wolf lord cheap and you have 9 armored targets on the board to start with. If you go first you advance the vindicators up and pop smoke, hopefully there should be a target in range to pop their strat (The 3d3 mortal wounds is no joke and will even surprise people that known about it but never see it coming), the preds pop killshot and do some serious damage, the whirlwinds will do work at 85 pts a piece putting out 6d6 str 6 shots. Some armies like dark eldar, orks, or harliquens will crumble to them. Heck, even basilisks are t6, that should do some dmg to some imp guard stuff as well.
Njal gets the storm off and pops -1 to hit covering the preds and whirlwinds, and your opponent has no good targets as eveything on the field is -1 to hit, t7 with a 2+ save, or t8 with a 3+.
If you go 2nd just pop the strat to put everything in cover. You will probably lose a pred or a vindicator, but unlikely both.
Also you can swap those castellens to vengence launchers easy enough point wise if you drop krom for a normal wolf lord or drop the plasma pistols from the grey hunters.
Azuza001 wrote: I have had a lot of success with my space wolves running the following with my grey hunters.
3 x 10 man squad, 1wgbl with combi plasma, 2 w/ plasma guns and chainswords, 1 w/ plasma pistol and chainsword, 6 w/ bolter and chainsword.
Outflank all of them and a wolf lord (or Krom because for the slight cost increase he is totally worth it) and then drop them in where needed turn 2 or 3.
The way this works is simple, what you start on the board has to be tough as nails to survive the initial hit from your opponent while also being strong enough to blow a hole in a flank or in their back line to allow these guys to come in where they want.
I do it by running 3 predators w/ autocannons and heavy bolters, 3 vindicators, and 3 whirlwinds with castellen launchers. Add Njal, a wolf guard battle leader, and a wolf lord cheap and you have 9 armored targets on the board to start with. If you go first you advance the vindicators up and pop smoke, hopefully there should be a target in range to pop their strat (The 3d3 mortal wounds is no joke and will even surprise people that known about it but never see it coming), the preds pop killshot and do some serious damage, the whirlwinds will do work at 85 pts a piece putting out 6d6 str 6 shots. Some armies like dark eldar, orks, or harliquens will crumble to them. Heck, even basilisks are t6, that should do some dmg to some imp guard stuff as well.
Njal gets the storm off and pops -1 to hit covering the preds and whirlwinds, and your opponent has no good targets as eveything on the field is -1 to hit, t7 with a 2+ save, or t8 with a 3+.
If you go 2nd just pop the strat to put everything in cover. You will probably lose a pred or a vindicator, but unlikely both.
Also you can swap those castellens to vengence launchers easy enough point wise if you drop krom for a normal wolf lord or drop the plasma pistols from the grey hunters.
Great to hear it did good. I don't know If it had go against the 3 IK armies. Tbh, If the Castellan Knight and Crusader Knightgoes first, it may destroy near half of those tanks in 1St turn.
I only went up vs 1 knight army with it so far, castellen and 2 armigers with ig support. We played beachhead from the chapter approved missions.
I went first and had njal get his spells off then used kill shot to unload on the small knights (killed both armigers t1 (i got decently lucky, 1 pred did 12 wounds to 1 armiger thanks to my opponent rolling horrid, dont underestimate hb's wounding on 4's and 2d each, they are suddenly better than normal autocannons!) Whirlwinds took out mortar teams in the back like they were candy. Vindicators moved up a bit and popped smoke then used the strat to do 3 mw to castellen and 5 to a punisher tank comander next to him. I kept them 24" away from the castellen, i didnt want to get them any closer than i had to.
Opponent moved castellen and a russ comander with punisher gattling up, castellen took out 1 pred and dropped the other a few wounds (2+ save for cover and -1 to hit really saved me vs craws wrath and those big sholder cannons). All of the imperial guard shooting went into the vindicators but hitting on 5's ment they mostly missed. They did do 7 wounds to one, but it lived!
T2 i brought my plasma hunters in on the side of the board near the vindicators as close to the castellen and punisher tank as i could and i put everything into the castellen. Vindicators did another 4 mortal wounds (love that strat), and after the smoke cleared the castellen was still standing with 3 wounds left.
T2 he used the strat to put the castellen up to full health for the bracket, blew 2 vindicators up and killed njal with an oathbreaker missile (got damn lucky on his roll for dmg). Punisher unloaded on my grey hunters and killed 6, rest of the guard continued to shoot like guard and finished the damaged marine squad and drop the damaged pred to 2 wounds. Castellen charged into the marines and tried to tap dance on their faces but krom heroically intervened (got to love 6" hi, people forget about it some times). Castellen killed 7 marines leaving a squad of 3 and a squad of 4, but krom finished it off in cc! It then exploded taking out the small marine squad, putting 2 wounds on krom, dropping the other marine squad to 2, putting 4 wounds on the vindicator, but most importantly putting 6 wounds onto his own leman russ and killing it for me.
My t3 i proceeded to start wiping the remaining guard off the table. He had a brigade, but at this point it was pretty easy. Took out the scout sentinals, took out the last heavy weapon team, and just moved towards holding objectives 1 & 2 leaving him his own objective. Any time he had guys on his i would use the whirlwinds to shoot at them so he would have to move more guys towards his own objective to keep it but in the end i won easy in victory points.
Castellens are nasty, no doubt about it. And he was a newer player. He knows his army but has only played for 6 months. If i would change anything I would have to say I must hide njal better next time lol. Losing him hurt. But krom is my man. Has killed a castellen and old one eye twice in cc, guy just loves to finsh what his grey hunters start.
Yes... IF SW are allowed to take those guys without having to ham-fist them into an Allied Detachment from Codex SM. GW already put up a middle finger to non-Codex chapters with the Indomitus Crusaders detachment and I fear they might do it again. Flying Autocannons with Keen Senses would be awesome but I hope it will even be allowed.
Yes, Infiltrators fill a valuable niche in our army since we don't get proper Scouts. The question will be how much they cost. 5 PL could be anywhere from 17-22 ppm. If they are 17, they will definitely be contenders. At 20+, not so much. I like the unit but I think price will be everything.
Yes, Infiltrators fill a valuable niche in our army since we don't get proper Scouts. The question will be how much they cost. 5 PL could be anywhere from 17-22 ppm. If they are 17, they will definitely be contenders. At 20+, not so much. I like the unit but I think price will be everything.
I'm hopeful that they'll be reasonable since Intercessors have gotten a couple of price drops since they were introduced at the start of 8th edition. If not, we'll just have to wait for a FAQ to fix it once GW realize that nobody is playing with their shiny new Phobos models.
Yes... IF SW are allowed to take those guys without having to ham-fist them into an Allied Detachment from Codex SM. GW already put up a middle finger to non-Codex chapters with the Indomitus Crusaders detachment and I fear they might do it again. Flying Autocannons with Keen Senses would be awesome but I hope it will even be allowed.
This is what I was thinking. I'd love to take these guys and the eliminators. The captain with the +1 to hit warlord trait to buff suppressors and use keen senses to ignore minuses to hit. Target priority trait allows you to buff chapter units within 3". So buff suppressors and long fangs to provide cover fire for wulfen and charging units.
They should be allowed. SW have been mentioned somewhere as an example, iirc. GW also said that all Chapter will get access.
I really hoped for some melee power though. Ranged is all well and good, but I would've loved to see some more durable Primaris melee.
Of those units we've got, Infiltrators are great, especially if their cost is decent. Together with Intercessors they could make the backbone, unless someone wants to run MSU double fist BCs.
Eliminators are decent to snipe support characters.
Beyond that though? Every advantage Shadowspear units bring, they bring to all Chapters. I fail to see anything that really jumps out for SW. Well, maybe Suppressors helpng with Overwatch and using Keen Senses, if you don't need it for Long Fangs or to combat negative modifiers on overcharged Plasmas, but that's about it.
So I wanted to build a fun list with lots of wolves, werewolves, and dudes that like wolves. So this is my mostly melee list. This isn't made to be competitive just fun. I believe it would do well against things like Orks or other horde like armies. I make use of the Vigilus special detachment so that I can have 2 warlord traits giving the +1attack saga.
Skyclaws [7 PL, 114pts] . 4x Skyclaw
. Skyclaw Pack Leader: Bolt pistol, Power fist
. Wolf Guard Sky Leader: Power fist, Storm shield
+ Heavy Support +
Long Fangs [9 PL, 162pts] . Long Fang: Plasma cannon
. Long Fang: Plasma cannon
. Long Fang: Plasma cannon
. Long Fang: Heavy bolter
. Long Fang: Missile launcher
. Long Fang Pack Leader: Boltgun and Bolt Pistol, Chainsword
Wolf star characters get into combat with large blob. And attempt to kill at least 5 models each.
Canis wolfborn buffs thunderwolf mounts attacks increasing chances of killing 5 enemy models to set off sagas while providing reroll 1s to wound.
Afterward Units around the mounts will get an extra 2 attacks. Ex: Hammer leader in sky claws will potentially get 6 attacks with hammer hitting on 3s when he charges + rerolls.
Little wolves will screen character trio with Harald buffing their leadership to 9 and canis buffing their attacks up by 1.
Wulfen can either start on board and position for possible counter charge/ suicide run or outflank. They can buff charges of skyclaws when needed.
Wolfguard and sky claws fly near star in hopes of benefitting from +2-3 attacks. This gives the hidden hammers and fists 5-6 attacks in melee if I can pull it off. Long fangs shoot big stuff to soften them up for all the beat sticks. Long fangs have HB and ML to add mortal wound strats when neede. and the bikes shoot lots of low S fire into chaff when needed.
1. The librarian has the runepriest keyword that allows us to use cloak by the storm and chooser of the slain strats
2. We finally got a command point regen mechanic with the obscuration discipline
3. The warlord trait giving +1 to hit in shooting phase is great because it can affect all chapter units
How i will make use of the above:
I always take at least 2 HQs for the battalion so ill take a wolf lord with jump pack (TH/SS) + armour of russ or wulfen stone and my second HQ and warlord will be the new librarian with the new warlord trait (+1 to hit ) and the powers, temporal corridor and the cp regeneration one. My librarian will use temporal corridor to keep in touch with my jump lord, razorbacks and stormfang. He will also try to use cloacked by the storm to give my units -1 to hit (-2 for flyer). In his shooting phase he will give +1 to hit to the stormfang which also gets reroll 1s to hit from wolflord... scary !!! In my second turn i will outflank a unit of 6 aggressors , and the librarian with try to give them +1 to hit ... also scary . The aggressors can also charge with +1 to hit powerfists. If the enemy uses deep striking units the librarian can trigger chooser of the slain for the stormfang. The above gets a lot better if you get reroll 1s to wound in to the mix with a smash-battle leader.
I can't wait to try out Infiltrators and concealed positions.
Melee Wolves have needed to get threats in the opponent's face to take pressure off the heavy hitters and our Scouts suck. So I'm looking forward to pressing it with a troop choice.
Infiltrators seem a bit overpriced to me for what they bring. +5ppm over Intercessors is a hefty premium for a downgraded gun and some situational bonuses.
Intercessors ended up coming down to 17 ppm eventually which makes them solid. In Infiltrators came down 3 to 19ppm I would take a second look at them (particularly if they get a few extra weapon options). As it stands, I think will pass them by for the moment.
Karhedron wrote: Infiltrators seem a bit overpriced to me for what they bring. +5ppm over Intercessors is a hefty premium for a downgraded gun and some situational bonuses.
Intercessors ended up coming down to 17 ppm eventually which makes them solid. In Infiltrators came down 3 to 19ppm I would take a second look at them (particularly if they get a few extra weapon options). As it stands, I think will pass them by for the moment.
Heh, overpriced kind of describes most of our army.
Karhedron wrote: Infiltrators seem a bit overpriced to me for what they bring. +5ppm over Intercessors is a hefty premium for a downgraded gun and some situational bonuses.
Intercessors ended up coming down to 17 ppm eventually which makes them solid. In Infiltrators came down 3 to 19ppm I would take a second look at them (particularly if they get a few extra weapon options). As it stands, I think will pass them by for the moment.
Heh, overpriced kind of describes most of our army.
Karhedron wrote: Infiltrators seem a bit overpriced to me for what they bring. +5ppm over Intercessors is a hefty premium for a downgraded gun and some situational bonuses.
Intercessors ended up coming down to 17 ppm eventually which makes them solid. In Infiltrators came down 3 to 19ppm I would take a second look at them (particularly if they get a few extra weapon options). As it stands, I think will pass them by for the moment.
Heh, overpriced kind of describes most of our army.
Except maybe Wuflens only.
Wulfen are actually pretty decently priced, especially the TH/SS loadout, that's why they're about the only Space Wolves unit that really sees use outside Space Wolf lists.
Best list I've had so far is a Battalion with Troops tax, Leader Tax, Wulfen and Long Fangs.
Teamed with a minimal-ish Battalion of Scions.
Anything I thought could threaten the Wulfen got shot by Long Fangs then the Scions dropped on the remains of the battlefield and nabbed objectives. Ynari flyer spam on an open battlefield kind of ended my fun. Destroyed the Long Fangs on the first turn, Wulfen on the second and everything else by the fourth.
I played SW in 5th and 6th edition. I always thought GH and Long Fangs as very fluffy. But those where the cheap units in that codex as opposed to every other units that was priced in then fair to exspensive place.
Karhedron wrote: Infiltrators seem a bit overpriced to me for what they bring. +5ppm over Intercessors is a hefty premium for a downgraded gun and some situational bonuses.
Intercessors ended up coming down to 17 ppm eventually which makes them solid. In Infiltrators came down 3 to 19ppm I would take a second look at them (particularly if they get a few extra weapon options). As it stands, I think will pass them by for the moment.
Yes, they should become chaeper. But at 22 ppm I still consider a squad. My smash wolf lord can be very killy but gets islolated very quickly. Another 10 wounds midfield that help keep him alive is worth a few points extra, especially when they are also troops. And some armies will really hate to have to keep their DS 12" away.
Automatically Appended Next Post: What's your thoughts on the new FAQ?
Castellans got more expensive, no more 3++ for knights and Eldar psychic powers now only affect Asuryani. So the top of the pile got nerfed a bit.
The change to fly made our smash lords a bit better.
Nothing else really interesting. I'm a bit disappointed that we didn't get points changes for the Codexes left out in last CHapter Approved. IIRC, last Spring FAQ hat points adjustments. Guess we have to wait until December then.
I don't know what I expected for SW, maybe a few points adjustments or... I dunno, something impactful? Glad IK got nerfed, they were EVERYWHERE, and it was an issue. I still think our warlord traits are too lackluster to really care much about. I feel like our book was made with lore and narrative play in mind, which dont get me wrong, I love both of those things, but I also like to bring my wolves out to pick up games and have a decent shot.
Dakka Wolf wrote: Is there a rule that says units must use all their attacks or shots?
No, why?
I don't know when, but is was clarified somewhere. Some people claimed you had to fire your Castellan Missiles T1 or in overwatch until it got officially FAQed.
If its a weapon that is use and lose like hk missiles you can choose when to fire it. Otherwise you must always fire and attack in cc with all avalible weapons. This has come up before with harliquens for example, the shadowseer can get up to -3 to hit and using the relic suit of hidden knives any attack rolls of 1,2,3, or 4 that target the chr bounce back as a mortal wound on a 2+. For a lot of forces that means the enemy doesnt want to swing, but they have no choice. The only thing you can choose to do is not pile in to lower the number of attacks your putting out, but you must attack with all avalible weapons if you can.
Has anyone used suppressor squads yet? They seem like a good fit for Space Wolves to negate OverWatch and to provide some light vehicle shooting. We could also use Keen senses on them to ignore the negative o to shooting if they move.
I have some but haven't tried them yet. Unfortunately i run my wolves very shooty, i only go cc when i need to finish something off. I havent tried a serious cc force since the codexes release.
Jimbobbyish wrote: Has anyone used suppressor squads yet? They seem like a good fit for Space Wolves to negate OverWatch and to provide some light vehicle shooting. We could also use Keen senses on them to ignore the negative o to shooting if they move.
I run two squads of them, when they have optional numbers they will be a tad better.
Three is just a bad number for them, enough to guarantee a death in one squad and take a lucky plug at another and not enough to really threaten any vehicle bigger than a Land Speeder so I wind up focus firing with both or divvying between the two units quite a bit. Units of four would be better.
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Azuza001 wrote: If its a weapon that is use and lose like hk missiles you can choose when to fire it. Otherwise you must always fire and attack in cc with all avalible weapons. This has come up before with harliquens for example, the shadowseer can get up to -3 to hit and using the relic suit of hidden knives any attack rolls of 1,2,3, or 4 that target the chr bounce back as a mortal wound on a 2+. For a lot of forces that means the enemy doesnt want to swing, but they have no choice. The only thing you can choose to do is not pile in to lower the number of attacks your putting out, but you must attack with all avalible weapons if you can.
All available weapons - does that mean we can lower the power by attacking with base strength even with a fully kitted model?
Yes it actually does, if your model has 5 attacks on its profile it has to make 5 attacks, but you can choose to use base fist weapons that all models have instead of using a more powerful weapon like a power fist. As long as you make 5 attacks your fine in this example.
Looking at better ways of hiding in combat.
The Wolves got short Changed but my Nids are loving this edition, I want to find a way of making the Wolves a hitty army again and the Infiltrators and Suppressors have given me useful (if a bit costly) tools.
There isn't any good ways to hide in combat anymore since the enemy can easily walk out of it now days. You have to be hitting multiple things at once, tying multiple things up so that a good portion of the enemy army is caught up in cc and unable to shoot at you when the rest fall back.
So i ran the following at a local tournament this last weekend, 2200 pt anniversary special event. Went 2 and 0 so far (next 2 games are coming up this weekend).
Spoiler:
+ HQ +
Krom Dragongaze
Njal Stormcaller in Runic Terminator Armour: 4. Fury of the Wolf Spirits, 5. Storm Caller, 6. Jaws of the World Wolf
Wolf Guard Battle Leader: Boltgun, Chainsword
Wolf Lord: Bolt pistol, Relic blade, Saga of the Wolfkin, The Wulfen Stone, Warlord
Wolf Guard in Terminator Armour
. . Wolf Guard in Terminator Armour: Storm bolter, Storm shield
. . Wolf Guard in Terminator Armour: Storm bolter, Storm shield
. . Wolf Guard in Terminator Armour: Storm bolter, Storm shield
. . Wolf Guard in Terminator Armour: Storm bolter, Storm shield
. . Wolf Guard Pack Leader in Terminator Armour: Storm bolter, Storm shield
Wolf Scouts
. . Wolf Guard Pack Leader: Chainsword, Combi-plasma
. . Wolf Scout: Boltgun
. . Wolf Scout: Boltgun
. . Wolf Scout Pack Leader: Boltgun, Plasma pistol
. . Wolf Scout with Heavy Weapon: Plasma gun
. . Wolf Scout with Melee Weapon: Boltgun, Plasma pistol
+ Heavy Support +
Long Fangs
. . Long Fang: Missile launcher
. . Long Fang: Missile launcher
. . Long Fang: Missile launcher
. . Long Fang: Missile launcher
. . Long Fang: Boltgun
. . Long Fang Pack Leader: Boltgun and Bolt Pistol, Chainsword
. . Wolf Guard Pack Leader: Bolt pistol, Storm shield
Predator: Predator autocannon
. . Two Lascannons: 2x Lascannon
Predator: Predator autocannon
. . Two Lascannons: 2x Lascannon
Predator: Predator autocannon
. . Two Heavy Bolters: 2x Heavy bolter
Whirlwind: Whirlwind vengeance launcher
++ Unbound Army (Faction) (Imperium - Officio Assassinorum) ++
+ Elites +
Callidus Assassin
I am running 2 batallions and an auxiliary for my assassin since i only own the 1 and it seemed silly to pay 2cp when i knew which one i was going to take.
I used the predators / killshot / njal to cover them to great effect. We played chapter approved missions, 1st game was vs blood angels and the 2nd was vs deathguard.
Vs blood angels he went 1st but i deployed so far back he simply couldn't get to me t1 for a charge. He kept his smash team and black rage guys in deep strike, moved a land raider onto 1 objective and 2 black rage dreads up. My 1st turn i moved the long fangs out from behind los and popped the strats to hit with no modifiers and reroll wounds and dropped land raider to 6 wounds. I then used killshot to kill both dreads and deny him an objective.
T2 he deep struck in.... and rolled horribly. He failed 3d6 charge with reroll from his death company (started at 10 guys, used the rune priest poking a tank to shoot at them when they landed and killed 5,) he ended up getting dante into cc with the tank but between all my chrs and my own troops in the area he killed one pred then the entire force got lit up. After that i just had too much board contol, too much plasma, and too big a point lead for him to catch up and win.
2nd game vs deathguard was even more brutal. I got first turn and unloaded on him. He had 3 of the bloat drones, 3 of the small multi melta / missile launcher guys, 2 of the big mortar tanks, 90 pox walkers, the rest chrs. I unleashed all my firepower and did 8 wounds to 1 of the mortar tanks and killed one of the drones.
But my saving grace was his own deployment. How he deployed his stuff his pox walkers ended up blocking his movement and he only went 6" forward with his stuff. After his shooting he did 1 wound to a pred and killed one grey hunter.... between in cover,-1 to hit on the tanks and the storm shield soaking up 3 hits from the secondary guns of the mortar tanks on top of bad positioning of his pox walkers he did nothing.
My turn 2 i dropped the scouts, krom, and 1 pack of 10 hunters on his flank and killed the second drone, fired the killshot preds on the 2nd drone and damaged mortar tank and killed them, put 6 wounds onto the other mortar tank from the long fangs, put 4 wounds onto one of the melta/missile crawlers, and killed 18 pox walkers. And with his vehicles exploding i also 2 mortal wounds to 1 dp and 3 to another.
His turn he tried and moved his melta/missiles into range of the preds, moved his deamon princes back to get to krom and crew, and continued to shamble his walkers forward. After the smoke cleared i lost 5 of the 6 scouts, 4 marines from the bunch with krom, and the dmged pred survived with 1 wound left! And i had 1 cp left!
This turn i killed all 3 of the melta missile bikes and the last mortar tank. I had my assassin killing a chaos lord who was next to the mortar tanks for reroll 1's, 1 dp was at half life and the other was at 5 wounds taken (never underestimated the power of an angry pack of grey hunters) , and somewhere in the 50's for number of pox walkers surrounding typhus and some chrs to boost the walkers. I had lost 5 scouts and a total of 8 grey hunters..... so we called it since i had total board control and he had no shooting left in his force with about 18" between his walkers and my gunline.
So yeah, i got lucky a few times but in the end gun wolves outflanking and killshot preads (if you can protect them heavily) are incredibly powerful. Next week i expect to fight a pure guard army with a baneblade so the preds probably wont work as well in the next few rounds but we will see!
Its an interesting situation there. Predarors have more firepower (because 3 of them) and were a hell of a lot more destructive. But the preds took a lot more work and more cp to keep running.
Njal for the storm caller, 3cp for -1 to hit, and 1cp for killshot, plus a possible 2cp for cover t1 if you dont go first.
Long fangs however are more self reliant. They can easily hide out of los t1 then pop up. They need 1cp to move and shoot and 1cp to reroll failed wounds. Once in position they just need the 1 cp each turn.
I built this list around the preds when the codex first came out. Still works great. But preds have to be built around. Long fangs will fit perfect into any list with the points to spare. So i give the nod to the long fangs even though in my list the preds do most the work.
Returning player here, haven't picked up a model since 5th edition (and by the Allfather, how things have changed).
How good are troops now? I've heard Primaris are the new FOTM, but I have 20 GH/BC to finish gluing first. Should I field 5 man squads, or 10/15 man? What's the current thinking on special weapons in squads--are meltaguns still in fashion for basic grunts, or is plasma now the way to go? On the melee side, are frost swords, wolf claws, and power fists as good as ever?
Primaris are the new kids on the block and have some shiny toys but they are certainly not the only way to play. I have 2 packs of Primaris to supplement my oldschool Wolves (1 pack of Hellblasters and 2 of Intercessors from Dark Imperium) and they do well but they are not essential.
Grey Hunters are still our go-to Troop unit IMHO. Twice the number of attacks as regular Tactical Marines and they can double-down on Special weapons. They are solid and reliable and I never leave home without at least 3 packs of them. Plasma is pretty much the best special weapon available and Hunters can take a 10-man pack (9 Hunters and 1 wolf guard) with 2 plasma guns, a plasma pistol on the GH Pack Leader and a combi-plas on the Wolf Guard. I couple of packs like this are great for firefighting at mid-range and can close up to chop the enemy quite efficiently if needed.
Small packs with melta guns can work too but really need transport. I normally run 2 small packs with melta guns and a combi-melta/powerfist Wolf Guard in Razorbacks with assault cannons.
Sadly Blood Claws are a bit lacklustre in 8th edition. While they hit fairly hard, they need a Transport to get them where they are going and a leader like a Wolf Lord or Wolf Priest to reroll attacks to get the value out of them. This makes them expensive for what they deliver and your characters are better off buffing more offensive units like Wulfen (Priest) or Hellblasters (Wolf Lord).
Our special melee weapons are sadly overpriced in this edition. Basic power fists are great for wolves though as they came down to 9 points each in Chapter Approved 2018 and our +1 to-hit from our Chapter Trait negates the -1 to-hit penalty from the weapon. I tend to put power fists on pack leaders if possible and Thunder Hammers on Characters to leverage the extra attacks.
Wulfen are good but need to be used well. Thunderwolf Cavalry are over-priced and underkilly. Not worthwhile unless you really love the models IMHO.
Our specialist Dreadnoughts are really great. The ability to take either Venerable or Wulfen Dreads with a shield for a 4+ Invulnerable save is really strong. 2 of these guys make a really fitting bodyguard for Bjorn who rocks in 8th edition.
I do min sized GHs with Plasma because I have lots of them. They are slowly being phased out by intercessors and infiltrators though. Meltas and flamers are junk.
Frost weapons and wolf claws are way overpriced, fists and hammers are the way to go with SWs
Long Fangs and th/ss wulfen are the best SW specific units.
So I was at a tournament this past weekend, sadly playing a different army but there was a wolves player there. He caused me to question myself as I haven’t caught up on all the new stuff because I’m focused on finishing a different army before revisiting my wolves.
He was talking about the new rune priest or a commander that allows Wulen to move further? Giving them a really large threat range or something? Is this accurate or did he have a rule wrong?
ArmchairArbiter wrote: So I was at a tournament this past weekend, sadly playing a different army but there was a wolves player there. He caused me to question myself as I haven’t caught up on all the new stuff because I’m focused on finishing a different army before revisiting my wolves.
He was talking about the new rune priest or a commander that allows Wulen to move further? Giving them a really large threat range or something? Is this accurate or did he have a rule wrong?
The new Phobes Rune Priest?
That one has a psychic power to let somebody move again, BUT that unit must be in Phobes Armor, So it do nothing to wulfen.
Azuza001 wrote: There isn't any good ways to hide in combat anymore since the enemy can easily walk out of it now days. You have to be hitting multiple things at once, tying multiple things up so that a good portion of the enemy army is caught up in cc and unable to shoot at you when the rest fall back.
Tripoint is good tool. Albeit wolves suffer from being small. But bigger units(tyranids, orks, daemons etc) will 3 point model from unit they did not declare charge=cannot fall back unless it's fly.
If you are facing all fly army though yeah it doesn't work.
But say IG? You can 3 point one squad preventing fall back and your squad is 100% immune to shooting(well except pistols)
Hellblasters can be devistating if used properly. I have seen them come off the side of the table (outflank) and just annihilate sa anything that was in there way. But like all things we outflank with i feel they should be used as a scalpel and not a hammer.
Khornate25 wrote: Hi people ! I just was just wondering if Hellblasters were useful for SW or if I should stick to Long Fangs. What is your opinion on this ?
Depends mostly on what system you play.
I usually play ITC so if it has a Power Level over seven and no survivability beyond armour saves I consider it a waste of time, Long Fangs scrape in with the WGPL in terminator armour with Storm Shield.
It also depends on what the Long Fangs are equipped with and what you actually want to target. I run Long Fangs with Missile Launchers because I want to kill light vehicles like Bikes and Flyers and thin out hordes.
To my mind Hellblasters are for killing Elites and Monsters and that crosses them over with the Wulfen.
Khornate25 wrote: Hi people ! I just was just wondering if Hellblasters were useful for SW or if I should stick to Long Fangs. What is your opinion on this ?
I have found Hellblasters very effective but they do need to be near a source of rerolls (e.g. Wolf Lord, Bjorn etc) to prevent them killing themselves. You will want to overcharge these guys when shooting at anything with more than 1 wound otherwise they just won't be cost-effective.
Long Fangs possibly have a slight edge when used with the "Wolf's Eye" stratagem since they can naturally reroll 1s to hit and the strat gives them full rerolls to wound. However you can only use each Strat once per phase meaning that a 2nd pack of Long Fangs are not as good as the first. For this reason I normally take a pack of Long Fangs as my first Heavy unit and a pack of Hellblasters as my second as they compliment each other.
Wolves are best at short-ranged engagements (both close-range firefighting and melee) and Hellblasters work really well at this range.
Hellblasters are high damage but a little fragile so work best when you have other threatening units. If they are the most dangerous target, your opponent will gun them down quickly. If you have Wulfen tearing up the field and Dreadnoughts about to crash into the enemy lines, they will last a lot longer. I tend to play aggressively and move up the field to bring the fight to the enemy and Hellblasters work well here. Alternatively, put them "On the Hunt" and drop a Jump Pack Wolf Lord down with them when they deploy to seriously mess up your opponent's back field.
Wolf Guard Bikers are the new hotness, way better than TWC when you deck them out with Storm Bolters and Storm Shields.
I played in a tournament on the weekend and with two Wolf Guard Bike units decked out with Storm Bolters wiped out two squads of Tacticals in the first turn of the first game, three squads of Electro Priests in the first turn of the second and two squads of Guard in the first turn of the third - had plenty of shots left over to pump a third squad of guard but they hid behind everything else.
Had them, Long Fangs and a squad of Infiltrators shut down any unit with a high ROF.
When the Wulfen arrived with the Warlord Phobos Priest packing Master of the Vanguard on the second turn they didn't suffer from enemy steps out of combat and shoots them with the rest of the army because most of the rest of the army was stepping out of combat themselves.
Khornate25 wrote: Hi people ! I just was just wondering if Hellblasters were useful for SW or if I should stick to Long Fangs. What is your opinion on this ?
I have found Hellblasters very effective but they do need to be near a source of rerolls (e.g. Wolf Lord, Bjorn etc) to prevent them killing themselves. You will want to overcharge these guys when shooting at anything with more than 1 wound otherwise they just won't be cost-effective.
Long Fangs possibly have a slight edge when used with the "Wolf's Eye" stratagem since they can naturally reroll 1s to hit and the strat gives them full rerolls to wound. However you can only use each Strat once per phase meaning that a 2nd pack of Long Fangs are not as good as the first. For this reason I normally take a pack of Long Fangs as my first Heavy unit and a pack of Hellblasters as my second as they compliment each other.
Wolves are best at short-ranged engagements (both close-range firefighting and melee) and Hellblasters work really well at this range.
Hellblasters are high damage but a little fragile so work best when you have other threatening units. If they are the most dangerous target, your opponent will gun them down quickly. If you have Wulfen tearing up the field and Dreadnoughts about to crash into the enemy lines, they will last a lot longer. I tend to play aggressively and move up the field to bring the fight to the enemy and Hellblasters work well here. Alternatively, put them "On the Hunt" and drop a Jump Pack Wolf Lord down with them when they deploy to seriously mess up your opponent's back field.
My best mate wrecked my best Daemonkin list with these plays. Bjorn and shielddread stomped up the middle with extra cover from that storm spell and strat, hellblasters came on my flank with Harald and wrecked various support units, next turn Harald charged the survivors and that was that
We’ve split a Shadowspear set between us and we’re wondering how best she can use the contents? She feels 22pts is a bit much for what Infiltrators do, but with my Summoning and deep strike shenanigans I’m pretty worried about them. She loves the Eliminators, and I’m absolutely dreading what their shoot-through-walls superpower is going to do to my PotW-risking support psykers. Suppressors feel like an interesting trump card to use in support of a Wulfen or dread charge against units with dangerous overwatch?
The Phobos lord seemed to be an awesome gunline support character. Even having to move to get LoS on my warlord’s attempts at hiding, he was a persistent threat. Definitely better than a combi-weapon or Storm bolter.
I have over 10k pts in Space Wolves, and for someone who played them pre codex, and then got tired of waiting, switched to tau and sisters, and then tried playing them again when the codex came out, I can honestly say just play another army :(. Space Wolves are not only one of the weakest armies in the game, theyre also one of the few marine factions that doesn't really benefit from Beta Bolter rules (TWC doesn't get it all the time like bikers). They are the army that got me into the game, and its very disappointing to me that they got nothing but crap this edition.
Not only are TWC and Wulfen CRIMINALLY overcosted, they're not even that great when you compare them to similar units, and are only useful with outflanking, which costs CPs, something Space Wolves has to soup to get efficiency out of. Scouts are ELITE choices! While I understand this for fluff reasons there is no comparable troop choice. Also, no synergy with Fenresian Wolves in this edition(they should have the bodyguard rule), I was expecting some kind of wolf pack ALA Wulfen book in 7th for Vigilus but no, all we got was sadly underpowered excuse of a Formation, with a warlord trait that does the same thing as one in our book (oh yeah and our book being errata'd before it hit shelves was AWESOME!)
Our Relics are mediocre at best, and strategems range from situationally OK to having to build around uselessness. They lost ALL of their flavor in this edition and it is really sad. Santa Claus isn't even remotely viable on his sled, (come on EXACTLY 10 wounds?) he's strictly better on foot. Not to mention our best character from the Index got nerfed (Harold) because people were upset that a 7 wound character with mediocre damage output was largely immune to shooting?. When you compare him to a Daemon Prince, he's incredibly overcosted, no range capabilities, no psychic, no fly, less movement.
Our psykers are pretty good, especially with a stratagem, however, our tree is mediocrity at its finest (how many slightly different smites do we need). We have no buff powers, unless you count the priest buffing himself for combat? Our "protection" spell gives cover (very useful in this edition) on a 8+! Warp Time isn't even an 8+!
I do not agree with caprican, i think wolves are actually really good this edition compared to other marine forces. The main issues are they dont play anyway near how they did back in the day and the codex did take some stuff away without any really good reason.
The 3++ invunerable save for venerable dreads, the 2++ save for harold, these were just a few things the codex messed with for little good reasons being given. At least gw has gotten around to nerfing other 3++ invulnerable stuff (ha, feel my pain castellen!).
But we do have some really nasty stuff still. Outflank shouldnt be underestimated when a 10 man grey hunter squad when you can get 7 plasma shots out of it when it comes in. Same with our scouts. You can get 6 plasma shots out of a 6 man squad i think it is? And they out flank for free.
Finally, have you ever wanted to know how it would feel if marine tanks kicked ass? Njal casts stormcaller then pops the strat for -1 to hit bubble. 3 preds at 2+ saves and -1 to hit become very difficult to kill.
And lets talk about some of our unique elites. A 5 man terminator squad costs 135 pts equipped with storm bolters and storm shields. So 20 shots at 24" and gets a 2+/3++ save? Mmm yeah. If your ok going index go wolf guard on bikes with storm bolters and storm shields. 5 of these guys put out 40 bolter shots at 24" and have a 3+/3++ t5 setup.
The issue becomes wolves have always been a cc focused force. These days they work better as a close firing/ mid range firepower force. Its a different playstyle and can be off setting since gw is all about "look at these amazing wolf models! Wulfen! Thunderwolves! Vernerable dreads with axes and shields! Dont mind they kinda suck and are overpriced and if you wana win then dont take them because Dey look goods!"
Azuza001 wrote: I do not agree with caprican, i think wolves are actually really good this edition compared to other marine forces. The main issues are they dont play anyway near how they did back in the day and the codex did take some stuff away without any really good reason.
The 3++ invunerable save for venerable dreads, the 2++ save for harold, these were just a few things the codex messed with for little good reasons being given. At least gw has gotten around to nerfing other 3++ invulnerable stuff (ha, feel my pain castellen!).
But we do have some really nasty stuff still. Outflank shouldnt be underestimated when a 10 man grey hunter squad when you can get 7 plasma shots out of it when it comes in. Same with our scouts. You can get 6 plasma shots out of a 6 man squad i think it is? And they out flank for free.
Finally, have you ever wanted to know how it would feel if marine tanks kicked ass? Njal casts stormcaller then pops the strat for -1 to hit bubble. 3 preds at 2+ saves and -1 to hit become very difficult to kill.
And lets talk about some of our unique elites. A 5 man terminator squad costs 135 pts equipped with storm bolters and storm shields. So 20 shots at 24" and gets a 2+/3++ save? Mmm yeah. If your ok going index go wolf guard on bikes with storm bolters and storm shields. 5 of these guys put out 40 bolter shots at 24" and have a 3+/3++ t5 setup.
The issue becomes wolves have always been a cc focused force. These days they work better as a close firing/ mid range firepower force.
Its a different playstyle and can be off setting since gw is all about "look at these amazing wolf models! Wulfen! Thunderwolves! Vernerable dreads with axes and shields! Dont mind they kinda suck and are overpriced and if you wana win then dont take them because Dey look goods!"
Yes, if you play Wolves as a shooting army, they are halfway decent. The problem is, our tactics and stratagems want us to be close combat. You're talking about playing shooting marines, which any faction can take, and all termies can take that loadout. I'm all good paying 10 pts a storm shield on bikers, only to have them die immediately to a Riptide or Dune Crawler. Njal needs an 8! to get that psychic power off, and then the rest of his spells are wasted because he's in the backline. The Stratagem then costs 3 CP (4 if you need to reroll psychic, which you usually do) This is assuming you get to go first. Raven Guard, Dark Angels, Ultramarines, Salamanders. All of these Chapters are WAYYYY better at playing the shooting game than we are. If I wanted to play shooty marines, I would buy shooty marines. Space Wolves have lost all their flavor, as I said. You can disagree all you want but if you want to play Space Wolves as a shooting army then do it, but don't say they're good compared to other forces, because that's just objectively false. The only worse faction for marines is Grey Knights.
Again i don't agree. I have played that list many times since the codex came out and not going first doesnt not make it work. You go second? Spend 2cp and put the army in cover.
And no other marines can mix storm bolters and storm shields on their terminators. Its 40 pts a bike to run them that way (2 for the shield and 2 for the storm bolter). No other marine force can outflank that much plasma for so little cost either. Also our long fangs are amazing vs devs. We get auto reroll 1's to hit and for 1cp reroll failed wounds. Thats damn good.
I do not disagree that wolves seem to want to be a cc force and if you run them that way they can be devistating. But they are not that anymore, it makes me sad. I love wolfen with ss and thunder hammers. I love thunderwolves with storm shields and chainswords running through the enemy lines eating their faces. But they are better as a shooting army.
I wouldn't say space wolves are the worst marine army, blood angels are the best simply because slam captains and their stratagems giving them free deep strike even mid-game and other forms of mobility. Vanilla marines are just kinda bad, but I would still much rather try to build a decently sized imperium army around wolves than any of the regular chapters.
And to be fair, things that are considered good melee units in this edition aren't those which are most killy, but those who can take hostages the best and move the longest distance in a single turn. If you get into melee with something, you have usually won already no matter what unit you are trying to get there, the challenge is to have as assured charges as possible and as much pile in and consolidation movement as possible. Double fight stratagem is almost never used to kill more things, it is used to get extra 6 inches of movement to tag more enemy units and tie them into close combat.
The Space Wolves are a jack of all trades army that happens to have some cool melee units - a real melee army would have methods for getting those melee units into melee, the Wolves don't and even in their fluff bothe TWC and Wulfen are rare.
Loyal 32 guard detachment plus wolves. At the moment I have loads of wulfen and not much else so thinking 3 units of 5 and a smash wolf lord and a rune priest. Have just over 600pts left to spend to bring it up to 1750. Any thoughts as to what would fit with this nicely?
Wulfen benefit greatly from being led by a Wolf Priest (preferably with Jump Pack). Being able to reroll all misses is golden with their weapons and he can also heal wounded models which helps to keep them in the fight that bit longer.
Long Fangs are really good and I never leave the Fang without a pack of these veterans.
Bjorn and our Axe/Shield dreads are really good but will cost most of your 600 points.
Even with the Loyal32, you don't have a ton of CPs so consider taking a look at our Troops to bulk out Wolves into a Battalion. Both Grey Hunters and Intercessors are solid in 8th edition.
This is probably very old news to everyone, but I was looking through the Wolves codex and I found a way to make a Smash Wolf Lord (I call him Slammin' Russ) that rivals even the Blood Angels one. Take a Wolf Lord with a jump pack, Thunder Hammer and a Storm Shield. Give him the Saga of the Wolfkin trait, and the Wulfen Stone. Then, have an allied Dark Angels character (needs to be in an actual DA detachment) and use The Lion and the Wolf to buff the Wolf Lord and the chosen DA character. That Wolf Lord, on the charge, has 7 attacks at S10, AP-3, 3 Damage, that hit on a 2+ rerollable. Personally I'm thinking of including this in a DA list, with a Supreme Command of Wolves (2 Wolf Lords and a Rune Priest). Perhaps the DA character that should be chosen for the stratagem should be a Smash Captain also, as he'll get buffed as well, although he won't benefit from the Wolves relic/saga obviously.
Anything to shoot away units that have a high Rate of Fire, when the Rate of Fire goes down the chances of the Wulfen failing a save and getting killed goes down with it.
I agree with Kharedron about the Wolf Priest but I'd rather cough up the extra points and get the Bike and Storm Bolter for the extra wound, toughness and mobility and to help kill off screens and other annoyances.
Dreadnought and intercessors cover the backfield, blood claws enter the stormfang and grey hunters the razorback and move with the HQs and the redemptor as a moving castle. Terminators drop near HQs for rerolls and then try to charge. Longfangs drop where needed with cunning of the wolf, keen senses and reroll wounds. I find wulfen and thunderwolves too expensive and easily countered, but the hidden melee from our HQs and the 6 inches heroic intervention counter charge with armour of russ is very good
Hard to say at 1500 points since I don't play it and am not really sure what threats are common. I'm not fond of the Redemptor or either of the Wolves' Flyers at 2000, they seem to get vaporised before doing anything of merit if you don't get first turn.
If it was a 2000 match I'd be dumping the Flyer and both Dreads and replacing them with three Venerable Dreads and a Rhino or if points permit grabbing a Vanguard detachment and putting a Chaplain Dread, two Venerable Dreads and the Terminators in it.
Dakka Wolf wrote: Anything to shoot away units that have a high Rate of Fire, when the Rate of Fire goes down the chances of the Wulfen failing a save and getting killed goes down with it.
I agree with Kharedron about the Wolf Priest but I'd rather cough up the extra points and get the Bike and Storm Bolter for the extra wound, toughness and mobility and to help kill off screens and other annoyances.
What about a leviathan dreadnought? Although I think that means bringing another heavy support slot to make it legal???? So maybe longfangs and a leviathan Dreadnought
The issue becomes wolves have always been a cc focused force. These days they work better as a close firing/ mid range firepower force. Its a different playstyle and can be off setting since gw is all about "look at these amazing wolf models! Wulfen! Thunderwolves! Vernerable dreads with axes and shields! Dont mind they kinda suck and are overpriced and if you wana win then dont take them because Dey look goods!"
This, a 1000 times this. I started playing SW because I wanted to play crazy space vikings chopping things up and with their current 8th edition iteration I just... can't. SW can be a fairly effective force when played shooty (outflanking plasma GH, Long Fangs rerolling their own 1s and Keen Senses allowing Heavy weapons that have moved to fire without penalty), it just feels so... out of character for them. I really cannot fathom why GW gave SW so many stratagems to use in the fight phase and a chapter tactic that gives you +1 to hit on the charge only to leave us with just Saga of the Hunter and Wulfen advance + charge and charge rerolls to actually get into CC. And then axing the survivability of sword 'n board dreads as well. Hell, at the moment I'm even contemplating just converting them all to World Eaters and playing them as a chaos SW warband in order to get my crazy berserker fix. Although I kind of want to hold out hope that at some point there'll be a good Primaris CC specialist or a good formation for SW that fixes their lack of ways to get stuck in.
BAN wrote: What about a leviathan dreadnought? Although I think that means bringing another heavy support slot to make it legal???? So maybe longfangs and a leviathan Dreadnought
The Leviathan is an awesome unit and the closest Marines get to having their own Knight. With 14 T8 wounds behind a 2+/4++ save, it will often survive past T1 and is one of the vehicles that costs enough to be worth getting an Iron Priest to keep him running a bit longer. 2 Storm Cannon Arrays are widely regarded as the best armament and fill a niche that Marines otherwise struggle with having good rate of fire, S7 and flat 2 damage.
Long Fangs (as noted above) are a fantastic HS unit and I would always recommend taking a pack. With these guys loaded with Lascannons and Plasma Cannons for anti-tank compliment the Storm Cannons with their high rate of fire.
I feel like hellblasters are better fielded as deathwatch, for the ablative wounds, as well as the ability to deep strike and get general cool abilities conferred to them (ie, inceptors).
This is strictly for fun not for competitive play. I recently ran a Phobos Rune priest as warlord with "master of the vanguard" trait with my wulfen and Thunderwolf characters and it was Awesome. The trait gives units within 6" +1 move, advance, and charge. It made the wulfen fast especially with their ability to advance and charge with reroll charges and made the Thunderwolves quite fast as well. I could definitely see first turn charges in a lot of deployment types. Anyone else tries this? I'm going to continue to work on it and see if I can combo it better.
I was able to use the Cloak of storm strat for -1 to hit and make a 2nd turn charge with 10 wulfen causing a lot of damage to my opponent.
I just played my mate’s Space Wolves with my Khorne Daemonkin, 1650 pts
It was one of the CA18 missions, the one where each side has three characters with “Intel” that generates cp per turn and are the only scoring units for a central objective
Long Fangs with Plasma Cannons and a Cyclone completely neutralised my Defilers with -2 to be hit. They just deployed out of LOS, climbed onto a roof, Keen Senses, and kapow
Phobos Rune Priest with Armour of Russ sitting next to Bjorn with a modest Primaris screen made my life hell. Slowed down my advance, and had to charge them with like EVERYTHING (and spend all my CP) to shift them - then died on that hill as a Gunship (the one with a three shot frost gun) drifted around and nuked character after character
A unit of Phobos Infiltrators seemed expensive but they were perfectly capable screen clearers and a very hard counter to my viable-again Warp Talons
TheunlikelyGamer wrote: This is strictly for fun not for competitive play. I recently ran a Phobos Rune priest as warlord with "master of the vanguard" trait with my wulfen and Thunderwolf characters and it was Awesome. The trait gives units within 6" +1 move, advance, and charge. It made the wulfen fast especially with their ability to advance and charge with reroll charges and made the Thunderwolves quite fast as well. I could definitely see first turn charges in a lot of deployment types. Anyone else tries this? I'm going to continue to work on it and see if I can combo it better.
I was able to use the Cloak of storm strat for -1 to hit and make a 2nd turn charge with 10 wulfen causing a lot of damage to my opponent.
I Cunning of the Wolf two units of Wulfen and the Phobos Priest with Master of Vanguard, that extra inch on the charge has made all the difference a few times so I'm happy with it.
lindsay40k wrote: A unit of Phobos Infiltrators seemed expensive but they were perfectly capable screen clearers and a very hard counter to my viable-again Warp Talons
Phobos Infiltrators are generally overpriced for the abilities but are a very hard counter to a few armies like Daemon-bomb, Genestealer Cults and Da Jump Orks.
TheunlikelyGamer wrote: This is strictly for fun not for competitive play. I recently ran a Phobos Rune priest as warlord with "master of the vanguard" trait with my wulfen and Thunderwolf characters and it was Awesome. The trait gives units within 6" +1 move, advance, and charge. It made the wulfen fast especially with their ability to advance and charge with reroll charges and made the Thunderwolves quite fast as well. I could definitely see first turn charges in a lot of deployment types. Anyone else tries this? I'm going to continue to work on it and see if I can combo it better.
I was able to use the Cloak of storm strat for -1 to hit and make a 2nd turn charge with 10 wulfen causing a lot of damage to my opponent.
I Cunning of the Wolf two units of Wulfen and the Phobos Priest with Master of Vanguard, that extra inch on the charge has made all the difference a few times so I'm happy with it.
That's a combo I hadn't thought of yet. I have been really theory hammering for some games I have coming up with some buddies wanting to find cool combos they hadn't seen yet. I found on B&C a thread about combining the Tenebrous Curse psychic power with the Jaws power of another priest. Especially against things like Orks, poxwalkers etc. it could be amazing. We really have the ability to Hammer hordes with psychic powers. I have successfully pulled off the 3 Rune priest lightning strat in 2 games thus far and after a turn of thining some units it is crazy good even if it's expensive.
I'd like to try using Ulrik as my warlord and combine him with the vigilus strat to make blood claws +3 to wound! I'm planning a list with blood claws in land raiders. I just want to try to pull it off. Maybe soften a smaller monster/character like broodlord or daemon prince and then have him wade in and kill them to proc his to wound buffs.
That is a pretty good use of the combo, i gave up on wulfen from outflank due to the abnormally high failure rate i was having, but that may be the help that idea needs to work more reliably.
So the phobos Tenebrous Curse spell and Jaws of the world wolf is suddenly a huge and nasty option. The spells both say pick a visible unit within 18", obviously jaws says no flyers or vehicles, but you could devour enemy chrs with this. I mean turn their movement to 3" then roll 2d6? Every point over 3 is a mortal wound?! Bwa hahahaha buh bye Azreal, you pompus dark angel bastard! Lol.
I recently won a casual game with my Space Wolves. My list was:
Battalion
Wolf Lord on Thunderwolf: Thunder Hammer, Storm Shield, The Wulfen Stone, Saga of the Wolfkin
Rune Priest: Jump Pack, Runic Sword
10 Grey Hunters including WGPL: 2x Plasmagun, Chainswords for everyone except WGPL, Combi-plasma and Power Fist on WGPL
5 Intercessors with Chainsword on Pack Leader
5 Intercessors with Power Fist on Pack Leader
6 Blood Claws including WGPL: 1x Plasma Pistol, Frost Sword and Bolt Pistol on WGPL
3 Thunderwolf Cavalry: 3x Storm Shield, 2x Chainsword, Power Fist on leader
5 Fenrisian Wolves
6 Long Fangs: 4x Missile Launcher, 1x Lascannon
Stormfang Gunship: 2x Stormstrike Missile Launcher, Skyhammer Missile Launcher
Vanguard
Primaris Battle Leader: Power Axe, Bolt Carbine
5 Wulfen: 2x TH/SS, 2x Great Frost Axe, Claws on Leader
5 Wolf Guard Terminators: 5x Storm Bolter, 2x Wolf Claw, 2x Power Axe, Power Fist on Leader
3 Aggressors: Boltstorm Gauntlets and Fragstorm Launchers
My opponent was running:
Battalion
Big Mek with Kustom Force Field: Power Klaw, Rezmekka's Redder Armor, Warlord Trait: Follow Me, Ladz!
Warboss: Da Killa Klaw, Kombi-rokkit
Wierdboy
3 big squads of Boyz (can't remember how big the squads were)
Super-heavy Auxiliary
Kustom Stompa with all the trimmings
I went first and put a few wounds on the Stompa and killed a couple of boyz, but nothing big. On his turn, he moved his Boyz up, but didn't charge as I hung most of my units back. The Stompa managed to take the Stormfang down to 5 wounds and killed all but 2 of the Long Fangs, but didn't polish off either. On my second turn, I tried to pounce on his Boyz, with my Wulfen, Terminators, and Aggressors all coming in from reserves (using the outflank strat for the Wulfen and Aggressors, obviously), but to my dismay, I failed every single charge except for my Fenrisian Wolves, and the Blood Claws who jumped out of my flyer right in front of a unit of Boyz. Both of these units were wiped out easily in the counterattack since they didn't get any help thanks to poor dice rolling on my part with those charges. Thankfully, I had cast Tempest's Wrath on the Stompa, so while his shooting from it did kill some stuff including all but a couple of the Wulfen, I didn't lose too much. His Boyz all charged into my units, who were now sitting ducks, but luckily they didn't kill as much as they should have and when I fought back, I completely wiped one unit of Boyz and severely depleted another. My Wolf Lord ended up being the MVP here, as he killed 9 Boyz by himself and fulfilled his saga, turning him into a buff monster. On my next turn, he ran over and just dumptrucked the Warboss, and my other units finished off the second unit of Boyz. On his turn, my opponent made a major mistake and didn't use the Green Tide strat (or whatever it's called) to bring back his third unit of Boyz at full strength, hoping that I wouldn't be able to kill them all quick enough. Unfortunately for him, my Wolf Lord made a longish charge into them and wiped out a lot of them, with the rest fleeing due to morale. At this point all my opponent had left was the Stompa, and it was badly damaged, and I finished it off on my next turn with a combination of Grey Hunter Plasma, Long Fang shots, and my Stormfang. Victory for the Sons of Russ!
In retrospect, my opponent's list is what really killed him. Stompas are simply terrible for the points, but he wanted to run it despite knowing what was in my list. I also got really lucky on a lot of my saves.
Units I really felt earned their pay:
Thunderwolf Lord: Absolutely the MVP of the list. With the stacking buffs, he is an absolute beast! I'll be running him again when I run my Wolves for sure.
Rune Priest: Tempest's Wrath is such a useful spell, and it really hurts any shooting that is already sketchy, such as that of Ork vehicles.
Stormfang Gunship: If my opponent had focused it down instead of splitting his Stompa's fire, it would have gone down a lot faster, but as it was it put in some solid work. 3 damage guns are nasty!
Grey Hunters: The fact that they have decent shooting as well as good CC thanks to the Chainswords was pretty helpful.
Intercessors: Probably our best Troops choice overall. Long range guns with -1 AP are super useful, especially with the Bolter Discipline rule. Plus, they are pretty respectable in CC too, especially with our Chapter Tactic.
Azuza001 wrote: So the phobos Tenebrous Curse spell and Jaws of the world wolf is suddenly a huge and nasty option. The spells both say pick a visible unit within 18", obviously jaws says no flyers or vehicles, but you could devour enemy chrs with this. I mean turn their movement to 3" then roll 2d6? Every point over 3 is a mortal wound?! Bwa hahahaha buh bye Azreal, you pompus dark angel bastard! Lol.
Definitely when I saw this I had an aha moment. I tried the wulfen with the Phobos priestthis weekend. Worked amazingly. Both occasions using a 10 man squad of wulfen with hammers and axes. In a 16,000pt Apoc game took 30 wounds off a reaver titan in the initial charge. Not long after opponents forfeit stealing my kill but proving it's worth. 2nd game was at 2k. They charged and killed a brass scorpion and then survived it detonating and ate skarbrand and a daemon prince. Wulfen really punch above their weight class. This new tactic really is gold.
Azuza001 wrote: That is a pretty good use of the combo, i gave up on wulfen from outflank due to the abnormally high failure rate i was having, but that may be the help that idea needs to work more reliably.
It is actually pretty amazing how often they manage to fall short in spite of having natural re-rolls to charge as well as the potential option to command point re-roll a single dice.
Well since learning this trick with the Phobos priest warlord I have had great success with my Wulfen. I made a list around an assault bomb that will come in from teleport/on the hunt. The suppressors will do what they do allowing safer charges for the bomb units. The cav will follow the land raider full of wolf guard and they will be protected by the land raider popping smoke+ tempest wrath spell + storm strat for -2 to hit and potentially-3 depending on the firer. Priests psychic things. In turn 2 hopefully land raider is alive and close enough to discharge the wolf guard in charge range. Position them to benefit from Wulfen reroll to charge and +1 charge from Phobos warlord. Arjac provides wolfguard, cav, terminators, and canis +1 attack. Turn 3 onward wulfen also give +1 attack. Should be a fun list and I’ll probably use it to focus on 1 flank. Could be disastrous if some key roles don’t come through for the minuses to hit. Also have plenty of psychic to deal with hordes. The curse plus jaws combo will be exciting. Thoughts?
Wolf Guard [16 PL, 176pts] . Wolf Guard: Storm shield, Thunder hammer
. Wolf Guard: Storm shield, Thunder hammer
. Wolf Guard: Power maul, Storm shield
. Wolf Guard: Power maul, Storm shield
. Wolf Guard: Power maul, Storm shield
. Wolf Guard: Power maul, Storm shield
. Wolf Guard Pack Leader: Storm shield, Thunder hammer
Wolf Guard in Terminator Armour [13 PL, 155pts] . Wolf Guard in Terminator Armour: Storm bolter, Storm shield
. Wolf Guard in Terminator Armour: Power maul, Storm shield
. Wolf Guard in Terminator Armour: Power maul, Storm bolter
. Wolf Guard in Terminator Armour: Power maul, Storm bolter
. Wolf Guard Pack Leader in Terminator Armour: Storm shield, Thunder hammer
Rune Priest in Phobos Armour [6 PL, 111pts]: 3. Master of the Vanguard, 4) Hallucination, 5) Tenebrous Curse, Camo cloak, Force sword, The Armour of Russ, Warlord
My gut reaction is you dont have enough cp to make that work past turn 1. Thats only 6 cp total for that army. You need to get within range for one of your spells to go off t1 to pop the strat as all of your powers are offensive in nature, dont get in range no -1 to hit. Even if you do, assuming denys and failed attempts require a cp to reroll if things go bad leaves you with 2cp. And thats assuming your not spending any cp to outflank anything with the strat.
Otherwise it may work, give it a shot and let us know.
Depending on deployment type I could start the warlord on the board and use him to increase movement and advance speed of the on board units. That would leave only 1cp to hunt the wulfen and 5 for other things. The priests don’t shoot so advancing them is no problem. Having multiple powers that cost 5 and 6 should be easy enough to get off and proc the strat. Tempests wrath is 24” range and with a minimum of 14” movement/advance that will be at least 32” range on the power. It has worked for me twice before but was with Dawn of war deployments. -3 to hit on a land raider is gross.
I have been recently thinking about wolfguard and the many buff they can receive to their attacks and it has me thinking. If I equip them with double chainsword they would be at 6 attacks with arjac and wulfen or the wulfen stone buffing them. They could potentially have more if you were to take a warlord and field commander with the abilities are proc’d leading to 8 attacks each. Would be excellent vs hordes. I happen to have a few ork players and a couple Nid players at my FLGS.
I run my wolf guard as cheap as possible in term armor. 5 of them with storm bolters and storm shields gives you 20 shots at 24" + 5" movement for a very small price and small footprint. Set them up on the top of a building in cover and you have a squad that cant be charged (assuming your covering the entire floor so they cant put a model up there with them) that can put out good shots at a good range with a 1+/3++ save (obviously 1's still fail on armor saves but 2+ saves vs autocannons is nice to have).
Wolves are in a weird position. They want to attack in cc, but only once their shooting has thinned the numbers down enough to make it work. You could pour those regular guys into cc and they will have a ton of attacks for sure, but all its going to take is a countercharge and they will fall easily.
If your going to try that i suppose you could ask your opponent if you could substitute regular guys for double chainsword guys and test it out. I would do that before actually modeling a bunch of models up.
I had planned on bringing them in a landraider in two squads of 5 each with the leader wielding a hammer and shield. I only use LR crusaders so I can thin units before making contact plus the ability to charge with it and possibly cause mortals. I also use smoke turn 1 combined with tempests wrath and the cloaked by the storm strat. Gives the land raider a -2 or -3 to hit. On a T8 2+ save it’s not to shabby. I’ve had good success with it thus far.
Stormfang gunship (2xlascannons,2xtwin heavy bolters, helfrost destructor)
TRANSPORTS
rhino (2xstorm bolter)
1500 on the nose and 7cp to spend (-1 CP for 2 relics)
TACTIC
Bloodclaws enter the stormfang, greyhunters enter the rhino joined by longfangs who stay protected if i go second. First turn rhino dissebarks longfangs into cover ready to fire with
keen senses and wolf's eye, they also get 3" + 6" move added to 36" plasma cannon. Ven dread stays on a base objective providing long range fire support maybe popping wisdom of the
ancients if needed. Intercessors also stay in the back/middle for objective camping/bolter discipline. Terminators go in reserves to support my moving forward force in turn two.
The stormfang with the bloodclaws, the rhino with the grey hunters, the thunderwolves and the HQs move forward and advance (the rhino pops smoke). The runepriest uses the -1 to hit strat.
The HQs have enough space to heroicly intervene if anything charges my rhino,stormfang or T-wolves. I chose thunderwolves over wulfen although they are very expensive for the following reasons
1. You get more wounds and toughness for a little over 200 pts.
2. Dammage 2 weapons are everywhere and hurt wulfen a lot
3. Wulfen must most of the time use the 1cp outflank and it is difficult to get that 9" charge which can also be countered by a smart opponent
4. Thunderwolves can get +1 attack from wulfenstone
So I have may have a game against GSC tomorrow. My plan is to take a Phobos wolf lord with saga of majesty for 15” deepstrike denial bubble. Anyone played against GSC and have any advice? My plan was to try and target the characters and limit their buffs. I know my opponent likes to use the abominant and the patriarch.
Gsc is one of the hardest armies you will ever face if you don't know what to expect or one of the easiest if you do. They ambush, thats their thing. If you play the early game defensively, spreading your guys out for proper screening, putting weak stuff out there just to keep the real threats protected from the massive deep strike / assault that will be coming, and then hard counter attack when they do show up, you will be fine.
Targeting the charecters isnt going to happen. All those damn infantry guys near the chrs can be passed wounds like a tau drone. Instead mass bolter fire the infanty first and wipe them out. The individual chrs are not a big threat without the large blobs to buff. Even a patriarch (their broodlord version) while incredibly strong in cc and tough should die to a wolf lord charging in if you have the cp to keep fighting.
So yeah, my advice.
1. Screen and do it twice. The new shadowspear primaris with their 12" no ds bubble as your first line then cheap 5 man troop options as your second 9" line.
2. Keep your cool. Early game its easy to over deploy considering that they wont have a lot on the table. Dont fall for it. Hold your side and do the best you can to do as much dmg to their long range support without pulling yourself out of position. Any long range / no los needing weapons will be super useful for this. Whirlwinds, thunderfire cannons, predators, long fangs will all be very useful for this.
3. Play the mission. Early game is crucial for this, you want to be even with your opponent, or even a vp down is ok, but play the entire game not the first few rounds. Let him take the center objective turn 2 for example if it means he is pulling something out of cover to get it and then destroy that unit. You need to be tied with him by t4 so that t5 you can take the lead, but until then hold and play long distance.
4. Once he commits and you lose your front line thats when you counter charge with that 2nd line which thankfully wolves can do incredibly well. Between our basic troops getting 2 shots with the bolters then another 2 attacks hitting on 2's in cc we can really put the hurt out with that sudden rush. Think of it as holding the reins on a massive beast then finally letting the boys free to fight.
Azuza001 wrote: Gsc is one of the hardest armies you will ever face if you don't know what to expect or one of the easiest if you do. They ambush, thats their thing. If you play the early game defensively, spreading your guys out for proper screening, putting weak stuff out there just to keep the real threats protected from the massive deep strike / assault that will be coming, and then hard counter attack when they do show up, you will be fine.
Targeting the charecters isnt going to happen. All those damn infantry guys near the chrs can be passed wounds like a tau drone. Instead mass bolter fire the infanty first and wipe them out. The individual chrs are not a big threat without the large blobs to buff. Even a patriarch (their broodlord version) while incredibly strong in cc and tough should die to a wolf lord charging in if you have the cp to keep fighting.
So yeah, my advice.
1. Screen and do it twice. The new shadowspear primaris with their 12" no ds bubble as your first line then cheap 5 man troop options as your second 9" line.
2. Keep your cool. Early game its easy to over deploy considering that they wont have a lot on the table. Dont fall for it. Hold your side and do the best you can to do as much dmg to their long range support without pulling yourself out of position. Any long range / no los needing weapons will be super useful for this. Whirlwinds, thunderfire cannons, predators, long fangs will all be very useful for this.
3. Play the mission. Early game is crucial for this, you want to be even with your opponent, or even a vp down is ok, but play the entire game not the first few rounds. Let him take the center objective turn 2 for example if it means he is pulling something out of cover to get it and then destroy that unit. You need to be tied with him by t4 so that t5 you can take the lead, but until then hold and play long distance.
4. Once he commits and you lose your front line thats when you counter charge with that 2nd line which thankfully wolves can do incredibly well. Between our basic troops getting 2 shots with the bolters then another 2 attacks hitting on 2's in cc we can really put the hurt out with that sudden rush. Think of it as holding the reins on a massive beast then finally letting the boys free to fight.
Good luck! Let us know how it goes!
I mostly play GSC, and I completely agree with all this advice.
I'll tell you what makes me happy when I play GSC, so you can avoid that
- Deep strike areas near long range shooting units.
- A screening unit that I can remove with the Lying in Wait stratagem and 20 acolytes with hand flamers. (With lots of CPs this is doable in the movement phase to open up for another unit to drop in in the opening created)
- An army that only castles up in a corner and lets me claim all the objectives.
- lots of anti tank weapons. (most gsc armies are made up of only infantry, so lascannons etc are pretty wasted)
What frustrates me or threatens me when I play GSC, so you can aim for that
- lots of anti infantry shooting/melee. Most of the army is just T3 and 5+ saves...
- tarpit units that will delay my assault units until they are spent
- well deployed screens that can fall back and allow me to be shot
- units that can survive one of my charges and fight back
- mobility (a typical GSC army is just infantry, and can't really redeploy effectively after they deep strike)
So I had to reschedule our game vs. GSC the guy couldn’t make it. So I played against a Chaos knight player instead. I took the below list. He took 3 big knights and 3 baby knights. His warlord was a nasty close combat knight supported by the chaos version of Castellan, a battle cannon, knight and 3 autocannon war dogs. I brought tons of TH and SS. 19 in total I believe. We were both a hair over 2k. 2010 for me. We played on a board with good amount of buildings as cover and dawn of war deployment. He deployed first spreading his forces evenly. I counterdeployed all in one corner with two wulfen squads in deepstrike and terminators in teleporter. I stole initiative and ran straight up the right flank. Got off tempests wrath on a baby knight and used cloaked strat for -1 for all my units in 6” and also popped smoke on raider. I weather the storm of shooting from chaos Castellan and 2 baby knights only losing two thunder wolf cav. Turn two I move up, and charge with everyone wulfen lending rerolls to those who need it. Since he moved towards me it allowed a lot of successful charges and most units made it into combat. 1 squad of wulfen came in from hunt and charged baby knights. Conflagration cannon etc ate 4 out of 5 Wulfen from land raider squad. I crippled the Castellan down to 3 wounds and when he charged in with his warlord on his turn and deleted my battle leader I crippled him down to 2 wounds by heroically intervening with 3 other characters. By the end of my turn 3 I killed the warlord, Castellan, and two baby knights as well as the relic. He only had one large and one small knight left and he forfeit. It was a fun match. With -2 and -3 on the land raider he didn’t even bother shooting it keeping arjac and a wulfen squad alive and well until delivery. It’s was a fun match.
Wolf Guard in Terminator Armour [26 PL, 246pts] . Wolf Guard in Terminator Armour: Storm shield, Thunder hammer
. Wolf Guard in Terminator Armour: Storm shield, Thunder hammer
. Wolf Guard in Terminator Armour: Storm shield, Thunder hammer
. Wolf Guard in Terminator Armour: Storm shield, Thunder hammer
. Wolf Guard in Terminator Armour: Storm shield, Thunder hammer
. Wolf Guard Pack Leader in Terminator Armour: Storm shield, Thunder hammer
Guys Im looking for a blatantly competitive build to play / try out.
Not sure who opponents will be but it will be maelstrom missions.
I dont own any TWC so they are out.
Apart from that have most oldmarine units and dont mind trying out proxies for numarines.
Iists? Not really. But i can tell you what has worked very well for me.
Triple predators with wolf lord / wolf guard battle leader / njal priest as a castle. I normally also run 2 whirlwinds with this castle. Everything stays within 6" of the chrs. If you go first njal casts storm caller and then pops -1 to hit strat. This protects everything incredibly well. Preds then kill shot whatever they want. I run my preds as autocannon / twin laz on 2 and autocannon / heavy bolters on the 3rd. If you go 2nd prepaired positions is key as well as hiding as much out of los as possible/ as far back as possible.
10 man grey hunter squads with 3 plasma guns and a plasma pistol outflanking with a wolf lord. I normally run 3 like this but 2 work just as well. Outflank a wold lord with them.
5 man wolf scout pack with max plasma. Its a cheap squad and probably wont survive the game but they outflank for free and have a small foot print so can get where others cant.
Rune priest in phobos armor / rune priest with jump pack combo. Outflank the phobos priest, ds the jump priest. Have them come in together. Phobos casts curse on a vital unit. Drops units movement to half. Jump priest casts jaws of the world wolf. Unit dies a horrible painful mortal wound death. Very good at killing enemy chrs that cant fly / not vehicles and squads of very annoying things (long range devistators hiding or terminator equivalents).
Triple rune priest in terminator armor. They drop in and then proceeded to use every mortal wound power they have to unleash holy fury upon the enemy. Get almost 2 squads killes then pop living lightning + strat for bouncing d6 mortal wounds.
Rune priest and new executioner repulsar, repulsar can move and fire at the same time, rune priest can protect it (storm caller) and if an enemy deep strikes in rune preist can use the executioner to take free pot shots at the deep strikers.
Wolf guard terminators with storm shields and storm bolters. These guys are cheap in 5 man squads and put out an obsene level of shots for such a durable unit.
Ratius wrote: Guys Im looking for a blatantly competitive build to play / try out.
Not sure who opponents will be but it will be maelstrom missions.
I dont own any TWC so they are out.
Apart from that have most oldmarine units and dont mind trying out proxies for numarines.
Any good builds I can check / review?
Maelstrom missions need Troops to take and hold objectives. I don't rate Blood Claws particularly highly in this edition so Grey Hunters or Intercessors are probably your best bet. The new Infiltrators are good against certain opponents but are quite expensive at 22 points each. Mobility is also important so putting a couple of packs of Grey Hunters in Razorbacks will give you some cheap movement options and give you a couple of extra heavy weapons.
Long Fangs are really solid in this edition and I would recommend a full-sized pack. Between Wolf's Eye, Keen Senses and their natural ability to reroll 1s to hit, they pack a lot more punch than regular Devastators. Lascannons are probably the best option but feel free to mix it up a bit. Missile launchers are cheaper and give access to the Flakk Missile stratagem. Consider adding a cheap Wolf Guard to act as an ablative wound for them. Whirlwinds are not very powerful but they are cheap and provide a source of indirect fire which can be useful for bombarding units hiding on their won objectives.
Wulfen are very powerful. 5 with 4 Thunder Hammers/Storm Shields and one with Frost Claws led by a Wolf Priest will do a lot of damage. You can Outflank with them using the "On the Hunt" stratagem but delivering them in a StormWolf flyer might be more reliable.
Our Dreads are pretty good too. A Wulfen Dread with a Blizaard Shield and axe or claw is pretty cheap but fast and hitty. Use one as a distraction carnifex to take the heat off other armoured units or take 2 as a bodyguard for Bjorn the Fellhanded and move them all up together with an Iron Priest attendant with Armour of Russ. The Wulfen Dreads tank hits for Bjorn on their shields while the Iron Priests repairs damage and freezes opponents in melee.
Njal Stormcaller is a very good psyker and well worth taking.
Mobile firepower is also valuable to hunt down enemy units holding their objectives. Wolf Guard bikers with Storm shields and stormbolters are very tough and also put out 40 shots each with the "Bolter Discipline" rule. Alternatively, a back of Bolter Inceptors are pretty cheap, mobile and shooty.
Hopefully this will give you some ideas to get started with.
TheunlikelyGamer wrote: So yeah. That shock assault rule will be awesome for us if everything we already have stays the same.
And infiltrating dreadnoughts Now I just hope it's got a decent melee weapon. 3 of those things infiltrating could solve many of SWs' issues getting into CC.
What i find interesting is the new codex due out in 2 weeks will grant us access to soooo much. Gw said everything in there can be taken by other marine chapters (wolves/angels). Does this mean we get access to stormravens and ironclad dreadnoughts? If so that would be soooo cool.
Azuza001 wrote: What i find interesting is the new codex due out in 2 weeks will grant us access to soooo much. Gw said everything in there can be taken by other marine chapters (wolves/angels). Does this mean we get access to stormravens and ironclad dreadnoughts? If so that would be soooo cool.
I’ve always wanted centurions. Although I’d probably use them with my deathwatch more. I stumbled upon the greatest space wolves bit lot ever on eBay recently for just over $50. So with all the extra bits I’ve been building many different ideas I want to try such as the double chainsword wolfguard. Buffed by arjac, wulfen and the new ability they will have 7 attacks on the charge and 8 if I can proc saga of the savage. Built a mixed pack of 5 with double chainsword and 5 with TH/SS that I plan to put in a land raider or storm wolf for safe delivery. Along with my usual minus to hit shenanigans they should definitely make combat. Makes me want to fight hordes. I’m curious about the viability of Reivers now especially buffed by a Reiver battle leader.
Azuza001 wrote: What i find interesting is the new codex due out in 2 weeks will grant us access to soooo much. Gw said everything in there can be taken by other marine chapters (wolves/angels). Does this mean we get access to stormravens and ironclad dreadnoughts? If so that would be soooo cool.
A Stormraven would be a quite nice delivery vector for a Wulfen Dread.
Thats what i was thinking. Dreadnaught delivery would be nice. I want our normal, not forgeworld, dreadnaught drop pods back, but thats a silly dream and i know it. :(
I'm pretty sure they removed the line about "everyone will have access to all of the units in this codex" about an hour or two after the preview was put up so I'd wait a bit before you go out and add new models to your army.
At least they sorted that BEFORE the codex was released....
Azuza001 wrote: What i find interesting is the new codex due out in 2 weeks will grant us access to soooo much. Gw said everything in there can be taken by other marine chapters (wolves/angels). Does this mean we get access to stormravens and ironclad dreadnoughts? If so that would be soooo cool.
I’ve always wanted centurions. Although I’d probably use them with my deathwatch more. I stumbled upon the greatest space wolves bit lot ever on eBay recently for just over $50. So with all the extra bits I’ve been building many different ideas I want to try such as the double chainsword wolfguard. Buffed by arjac, wulfen and the new ability they will have 7 attacks on the charge and 8 if I can proc saga of the savage. Built a mixed pack of 5 with double chainsword and 5 with TH/SS that I plan to put in a land raider or storm wolf for safe delivery. Along with my usual minus to hit shenanigans they should definitely make combat. Makes me want to fight hordes. I’m curious about the viability of Reivers now especially buffed by a Reiver battle leader.
For Wolf Guard, if you are thinking of doing double chainsword, try doing chain sword / storm bolter loadout. It gives you an extra 40 s4 ap - attacks for 20 points on a full squad, vs 10 extra s4 ap - attacks. In addition the storm bolters don't rely on a single dice roll to be useful.
Azuza001 wrote: That is a pretty good use of the combo, i gave up on wulfen from outflank due to the abnormally high failure rate i was having, but that may be the help that idea needs to work more reliably.
It is actually pretty amazing how often they manage to fall short in spite of having natural re-rolls to charge as well as the potential option to command point re-roll a single dice.
Well if they are aiming for 9" to charge then with all those rerolls it's 58% success rate. 42% failure rate isn't that good...
(incidentally the CP reroll is bigger boost than natural reroll ability for both. and both abilities gives nice extra buff)
With a Master of Vanguard you need to roll an 8 to get in.
So what you use to fix a fail depends on the two dice results.
Snake Eyes needs the natural re-roll.
The natural re-roll is better if your highest is 2 or 3, 41.7% for the natural vs 16.7% for a 6 and 33.3% for 5+ respectively.
If you bagged a 4 the CP becomes better at 50% for 4+.
5 needs 3+ at 66.7%.
6 needs 2+ at 83.3%.
Im glad we are not getting all units from codex SM like centurions. The gamer in me doesn't want or need that stuff but the collector would want 3 each
Will we be getting Shock Assault, and if so will dreadnoughts benefit from it? 8 PF attacks from a unit of Blood Claws on the charge sounds awesome! and extra attacks from Bjorn, Murder Fang and Wulfen dreads would be even bette!
Jimbobbyish wrote: Will we be getting Shock Assault, and if so will dreadnoughts benefit from it? 8 PF attacks from a unit of Blood Claws on the charge sounds awesome! and extra attacks from Bjorn, Murder Fang and Wulfen dreads would be even bette!
Yeah, every space marine regardless of faction (or loyalty) is getting that
Jimbobbyish wrote: Will we be getting Shock Assault, and if so will dreadnoughts benefit from it? 8 PF attacks from a unit of Blood Claws on the charge sounds awesome! and extra attacks from Bjorn, Murder Fang and Wulfen dreads would be even bette!
Yeah, every space marine regardless of faction (or loyalty) is getting that
A squad of six Wulfen packing 4 TH/SS and 2 pair of Frost Claws already kill almost anything they charge on the first turn, throwing an extra two Wulfen worth of attacks in there will be sweet.
They can now be combo’d for better charge potential and get more attacks.
A way of making Long Fangs survive to keep shooting down the stinking Eldar flyer spam would mean that there is no list the Wolves have zero hope against.
Wow you guys missed the big picture... if vehicles get chapter traits now our rhinos get 4 attacks on a 5+ when they charge! Surprize your opponent and run their guys down! Lol.
Seriously though, the new doctrins on top of everything else marines are getting.... am i the only one who thinks this is going too far?
Gw : "Whats that? Marines dont perform well on the table so they are underselling at the stores? Ok. Lets start with.... better bolter rules. Not enough? Lets give them back the old +1 attack on the charge. Want more? Lets give them the ability to share their chapter traits with all units in the codex. Still not enough? How about we add additional abilities onto the chapter traits / rework them to be better? No? Ok lets let people make their own traits so they can pick and choose their options. Still need more? Ok, here are some doctrines so they get better ap on their weapons because sure!"
I mean... wow. And they havent even gone over strats or any of the new psycic powers the different supplements can have.
8th may not be a perfect system but its much more playable than 7th. I don't want to see 8th turn into how the end of 7th was.
Azuza001 wrote: Wow you guys missed the big picture... if vehicles get chapter traits now our rhinos get 4 attacks on a 5+ when they charge! Surprize your opponent and run their guys down! Lol.
Seriously though, the new doctrins on top of everything else marines are getting.... am i the only one who thinks this is going too far?
Gw : "Whats that? Marines dont perform well on the table so they are underselling at the stores? Ok. Lets start with.... better bolter rules. Not enough? Lets give them back the old +1 attack on the charge. Want more? Lets give them the ability to share their chapter traits with all units in the codex. Still not enough? How about we add additional abilities onto the chapter traits / rework them to be better? No? Ok lets let people make their own traits so they can pick and choose their options. Still need more? Ok, here are some doctrines so they get better ap on their weapons because sure!"
I mean... wow. And they havent even gone over strats or any of the new psycic powers the different supplements can have.
8th may not be a perfect system but its much more playable than 7th. I don't want to see 8th turn into how the end of 7th was.
Space wolves don't get access to combat doctrines or a suppliment nor are we getting anything other than shock assault and some new units. Compared to the codex humping chapters we didn't get much BUT atleast we got something and we are better than before.
Captain in Phobos Armour
Librarian in Phobos Armour
Lieutenant in Phobos Armour
Eliminator Squad
Incursor Squad
Infiltrator Squad
Suppressor Squad
Invictor Tactical Warsuit
Impulsor
Primaris Repulsor Executioner
The full datasheets and matched play points values for each of these units will soon be available as a free PDF download for each of these Chapters, along with the rules for the Shock Assault ability.* Essentially, if you collect one of these Chapters, you can still pick up Codex: Space Marines for all the expanded lore, background and aforementioned datasheets, but you don’t need it to add the new units to your collection and use them in battle – your codex is still fully functional!
Most of the stuff on the list we already have but the warsuit, incursor squad and Impulsor are new, not to mention the las weapons for the Eliminator squad.
I play space wolves with a lot of Blood Claws, Wulfen and Dreadnoughts in my army so I unfortunately can't see myself using the new toys. But maybe you guys can think of some good combos with stratagems and whatnot.
Space wolves don't get access to combat doctrines or a suppliment nor are we getting anything other than shock assault and some new units. Compared to the codex humping chapters we didn't get much BUT atleast we got something and we are better than before.
Azuza001 wrote: Wow you guys missed the big picture... if vehicles get chapter traits now our rhinos get 4 attacks on a 5+ when they charge! Surprize your opponent and run their guys down! Lol.
Seriously though, the new doctrins on top of everything else marines are getting.... am i the only one who thinks this is going too far?
Gw : "Whats that? Marines dont perform well on the table so they are underselling at the stores? Ok. Lets start with.... better bolter rules. Not enough? Lets give them back the old +1 attack on the charge. Want more? Lets give them the ability to share their chapter traits with all units in the codex. Still not enough? How about we add additional abilities onto the chapter traits / rework them to be better? No? Ok lets let people make their own traits so they can pick and choose their options. Still need more? Ok, here are some doctrines so they get better ap on their weapons because sure!"
I mean... wow. And they havent even gone over strats or any of the new psycic powers the different supplements can have.
8th may not be a perfect system but its much more playable than 7th. I don't want to see 8th turn into how the end of 7th was.
2ed Bolters had -1 save modifiers, 3-7ed Bolters had AP5, the ultimate shock troops having situational access to better AP than a lasgun isn’t that extreme. It’s the fact that heretics, Wolves, and angels don’t have parity with that and the subtraits that’s worrying me. To bring this back on topic: how’s that going to affect Wolves?
Looking from my Heretic perspective, Berzerkers overkill even more and Wulfen are probably going to follow suit. TWC... I dunno, I’m still not that scared of them. Havocs and Long Fangs actually suffer as the threshold for an enemy space marine unit being able to bully them is now lower. Reivers... I still dunno about them. I want to like four attacks on a 2W unit with parachutes and batropes. WS2+ on the charge is a pretty good match with that.
D2 buff to Sniper bolt Rifles looks ok. Perfect backfield unit for anchoring and objective camping. Possible shenanigans with your outflank Stratagem, there. A decent sized unit can come on and waste a support character of their choice whilst obsecing an objective. Nice accompaniment to flanking Plasmaris (I forget the name) and jump Lord.
Azuza001 wrote: Wow you guys missed the big picture... if vehicles get chapter traits now our rhinos get 4 attacks on a 5+ when they charge! Surprize your opponent and run their guys down! Lol.
Seriously though, the new doctrins on top of everything else marines are getting.... am i the only one who thinks this is going too far?
Gw : "Whats that? Marines dont perform well on the table so they are underselling at the stores? Ok. Lets start with.... better bolter rules. Not enough? Lets give them back the old +1 attack on the charge. Want more? Lets give them the ability to share their chapter traits with all units in the codex. Still not enough? How about we add additional abilities onto the chapter traits / rework them to be better? No? Ok lets let people make their own traits so they can pick and choose their options. Still need more? Ok, here are some doctrines so they get better ap on their weapons because sure!"
I mean... wow. And they havent even gone over strats or any of the new psycic powers the different supplements can have.
8th may not be a perfect system but its much more playable than 7th. I don't want to see 8th turn into how the end of 7th was.
2ed Bolters had -1 save modifiers, 3-7ed Bolters had AP5, the ultimate shock troops having situational access to better AP than a lasgun isn’t that extreme. It’s the fact that heretics, Wolves, and angels don’t have parity with that and the subtraits that’s worrying me. To bring this back on topic: how’s that going to affect Wolves?
Looking from my Heretic perspective, Berzerkers overkill even more and Wulfen are probably going to follow suit. TWC... I dunno, I’m still not that scared of them. Havocs and Long Fangs actually suffer as the threshold for an enemy space marine unit being able to bully them is now lower. Reivers... I still dunno about them. I want to like four attacks on a 2W unit with parachutes and batropes. WS2+ on the charge is a pretty good match with that.
D2 buff to Sniper bolt Rifles looks ok. Perfect backfield unit for anchoring and objective camping. Possible shenanigans with your outflank Stratagem, there. A decent sized unit can come on and waste a support character of their choice whilst obsecing an objective. Nice accompaniment to flanking Plasmaris (I forget the name) and jump Lord.
TWC lost their menace when they lost access to high mobility and S10 attacks.
So drop pods can come in turn 1! Watched a batrep by tabletop tactics with the new codex. May be a good way to throw stormbolter wg at our opponents and support any vanguard units. Also regular tactical marine dropped to 12 pts per model. I wonder if our BC and GH will drop in price as well.
TheunlikelyGamer wrote: So drop pods can come in turn 1! Watched a batrep by tabletop tactics with the new codex. May be a good way to throw stormbolter wg at our opponents and support any vanguard units. Also regular tactical marine dropped to 12 pts per model. I wonder if our BC and GH will drop in price as well.
I hope they include more points decreases for other units like wolves and TWC!, and with the PDF we are getting, will the Wolf Priest get the same abilities as the new chaplains?
My guess is the PDF will be quite light-weight. We know we are getting Shock Assault and the new Primaris datasheets. Anything else is a bonus so do not count on it.
Someone pointed out on the BA thread that Doctrines are part of "Angels of Death" but I don't know if we will gain access to that. Pretty sure we won't get the new Chaplain litanies but on the plus side, our Wolf Priests will continue to work without requiring us to roll a 3+.
Agreed. If we get doctrines i will be happy, nothing else would matter much.... except t1 drop pods... that could be nasty with blood claws pouring out of them.
The Drop pod change is cool but did it go down in cost, and can it carry a dread again? Long Fangs with MMs in a DP could blow some stuff up turn 1 but its expensive.
No, no dreadnaughts in drop pods. And 65 pts a pod is perfectly fine with t1 deep strikes (or t4 or 5.... it ignores all of those rules now apparently). 65 pts for 5 blood claws, 65 pts for a drop pod, t1 you can drop 3 pods and 30 claws within charge distance for 585 pts. Even if they put a 12" bubble it doesnt help, pods come in outside 12, guys get out within 3 of the pod so still 9". They auspex scan the pod, not the guys in it so there is nothing the enemy can do. And while that's going on your unloading with longfangs and rushing forward with thunderwolves for a t2 mop up. Its going to be an interesting month coming up for marines
Agreed I look forward to it. I’m happy with everything we are getteing. My only complaint is the increase in points for the thunder hammer on characters. Went from 21 to 40 yikes. Hope Arjac doesn’t go up to much. I depend on his buffs in my wolfguard lists.
Long Fangs
4 Missile launchers
Pack Leader
Terminator Pack Leader Cyclone missile launcher and SS
Dedicated Transport
Razorback with Twin assault cannon
Razorback with Twin assault cannon
Razorback with Twin assault cannon
Total: [107 PL, 2,000pts]
I have never played thousand sons and I only know that they use lots of psykers. the list is what I usually run except I took out my 2nd Wulfen Dread, cyber dog, and Wolf Priest out to fit Njal, the 2nd psyker and Terminator with CML. I figured haveing more psykers to deny would help me some what.
Automatically Appended Next Post: I'm not worried about what i'll be taking but more about what my opponent is capable of.
Odds of making that 9" charge with no re-rolls isn't good enough to be competitive while spending 10% of your points to get them there (3 drop pods at 195).
Can no longer use the phobos libby +2 to advance and charge on non-phobos (wulfen/blood claws). Chaplin litanies start at the beginning of the turn so if you deepstrike/outflank they can't get them.
With this release space wolves are going from just a little worse than marines to a lot worse than marines without a codex 2.0 on the horizon (or even a WD article like DA are getting.) I doubt our blood-claws and other SM units will benefit from the reduced points (don't we still pay full price for WGBLs in termie armor even though they've been cheaper for almost a year now?) but I bet we get the 40 point thunder hammers on characters though...
I'm probably overly salty but I've put my SW away as an army I can have a competitive game with and this update is only pushing them further back on the shelf.
bananathug wrote: Odds of making that 9" charge with no re-rolls isn't good enough to be competitive while spending 10% of your points to get them there (3 drop pods at 195).
Can no longer use the phobos libby +2 to advance and charge on non-phobos (wulfen/blood claws). Chaplin litanies start at the beginning of the turn so if you deepstrike/outflank they can't get them.
With this release space wolves are going from just a little worse than marines to a lot worse than marines without a codex 2.0 on the horizon (or even a WD article like DA are getting.) I doubt our blood-claws and other SM units will benefit from the reduced points (don't we still pay full price for WGBLs in termie armor even though they've been cheaper for almost a year now?) but I bet we get the 40 point thunder hammers on characters though...
I'm probably overly salty but I've put my SW away as an army I can have a competitive game with and this update is only pushing them further back on the shelf.
We can still use the phobos libby from Shadowspear Vanguard Space Marines, I just checked the errata and there have been no changes.
Guys how do you keep Long Fangs functioning (read: alive) as the game progresses?
I've been using the combo of keen sense and wolfs eye (start out of line of sigh, pop up and unload) but once opponents get wind of how hard LFs hit they are nuked next turn.
Having no ablative wounds bar the sergeant in the squad hurts a lot - I know you can chuck in a pack leader with SS but if an opponent really focus fires them it tends to make little difference.
For every one of them you lose their effectiveness drops harshly.
Only thing I can think of is having other threats on the table, like a Knight or a bunch of Wulfen. Make your opponent choose between killing your Long Fangs or any of the other threats.
Sterling191 wrote: FYI folks, non-Codex SM armies cant use the new Chaplain or their litanies.
Yeah all we got was shock assault and Primaris Units. I was at least hoping for updated point costs on our units like 1pt off our troops like Tactical squads.
Ratius wrote: Guys how do you keep Long Fangs functioning (read: alive) as the game progresses?
I've been using the combo of keen sense and wolfs eye (start out of line of sigh, pop up and unload) but once opponents get wind of how hard LFs hit they are nuked next turn.
Having no ablative wounds bar the sergeant in the squad hurts a lot - I know you can chuck in a pack leader with SS but if an opponent really focus fires them it tends to make little difference.
For every one of them you lose their effectiveness drops harshly.
any ideas?
My friend likes to use a Bastion in a list that also contains a Spartan and sometimes a Knight
If your opponent’s not geared up to really smash through T8, it’s quite the daunting hill to climb, denying anti-Infantry weapons squishy targets
Bit tricky to handle objectives, but then there’s units that can hide behind walls
Sterling191 wrote: FYI folks, non-Codex SM armies cant use the new Chaplain or their litanies.
Yeah all we got was shock assault and Primaris Units. I was at least hoping for updated point costs on our units like 1pt off our troops like Tactical squads.
Bright side. I can’t see anywhere where GW raises our character thunder hammers to 40pts. Although I can’t see where we can give them to intercessor sgt like vanillarines.
Thing to bear in mind about Combat Doctrines is they only apply if the whole army has them. Ultramarines+ effectively have to choose between them and loyal 32, giving it an opportunity cost of 4-5CP. I mean, army-wide +1 AP on all your heavy weapons then on all your bolters then on all your big sticks is something many players would willingly throw 5CP at, but it’s still a factor. There’ll be some lists for which it’s not all a free power creep.
I main Chaos, and I’m not sure I’d even bother with my Dark Apostles if their Litanies equivalents didn’t have several ways to boost to a 2+. Abilities that require a 3+ to activate aren’t something I like to build an army around.
It's very likely to face a lot of them, and without the tools for killing tons of them 
So for me it kinda sucks that they aren't very good.
not that I’m bitter or anything, maybe his opponents are mostly Marine and Orc armies.
Now I just hope it's got a decent melee weapon. 3 of those things infiltrating could solve many of 
