Anyone see on warcom the weapon changes? Confirmed all storm Sheilds will be like indomitus shields. This will make thunder cav and wulfen more resilient to small arms fire, especially if using terrain well this Ed, and unfortunately weaker against heavy weapons. On another note flamers are better in a big way. Put them on termies and troops like blood claws for 12” flames as death.
I want to know what changes are being made to frost weapons and the cost of SS on units/TWC. I hope TWC go down in point cost or they get a 4th wound to compensate for the lack of 3++.
I really like bringing Murderfang in from strategic reserves. Using him with touch of the wild strat is bonkers. He rerolls charges naturally so if you can position a wolf priest near where he is coming in he can get +2 to charge also. A 7” rerollable charge with a dread that with the strat will have about 9Attacks at S12 -3 3dmg rerolling wounds Because of his claws. And he is a character so woth a strat he can fight when he dies. For only 135pts.
TheunlikelyGamer wrote: Anyone see on warcom the weapon changes? Confirmed all storm Sheilds will be like indomitus shields. This will make thunder cav and wulfen more resilient to small arms fire, especially if using terrain well this Ed, and unfortunately weaker against heavy weapons. On another note flamers are better in a big way. Put them on termies and troops like blood claws for 12” flames as death.
The only was a Wulfen has a better save now is if he happens to be in light cover and the opponent is shooting with AP- weaponry.
Wulfen are now worse against; bolt rifles, old school bolters (when in tactical doctrine), astartes chainswords.
I've been considering starting a wolves army (for a custom legion project) and I'm curious - I don't see a lot (in fact none) of talk about Wolf Claws. They seem to be lightning claws, but put you up to S5 which is a pretty big bracket to gain. Are they just too expensive?
At some point the SW codex will come. I do not know when, but it is not long until. Those claws will get new costs and rules then. The weapons who get new rules seems to be all the once that saw little play in 8th edition. If none played claws, those will get better to.
Niiru wrote: Is there a place for thunder wolf cavalry in lists atm?
The main lists I see for space wolves, seem to be primaris squads plus impulsors... Basically the same list you could run in any army.
For a WAAC play no, Wulfen hit harder, have better rules and even then shooting is arguably better then fighting. For me I take a wolf lord on TWC and 3 squads of TWC base, but that's a biased opinion.
Niiru wrote: Is there a place for thunder wolf cavalry in lists atm?
The main lists I see for space wolves, seem to be primaris squads plus impulsors... Basically the same list you could run in any army.
For a WAAC play no, Wulfen hit harder, have better rules and even then shooting is arguably better then fighting. For me I take a wolf lord on TWC and 3 squads of TWC base, but that's a biased opinion.
Is there no need for TWC and Wulfen in the same list? They do seem to fill a similar role.
Do Wolves have any decent and fluffy shooting units? Wolf Guard maybe?
Niiru wrote: Is there a place for thunder wolf cavalry in lists atm?
The main lists I see for space wolves, seem to be primaris squads plus impulsors... Basically the same list you could run in any army.
For a WAAC play no, Wulfen hit harder, have better rules and even then shooting is arguably better then fighting. For me I take a wolf lord on TWC and 3 squads of TWC base, but that's a biased opinion.
Is there no need for TWC and Wulfen in the same list? They do seem to fill a similar role.
Do Wolves have any decent and fluffy shooting units? Wolf Guard maybe?
Fluffy, wolf guard terminators with combis/cyclones; decent maybe the stormwolf/fang with quad melta depending on how the new supplement treats their costing.
Niiai wrote: At some point the SW codex will come. I do not know when, but it is not long until. Those claws will get new costs and rules then. The weapons who get new rules seems to be all the once that saw little play in 8th edition. If none played claws, those will get better to.
I'm expecting frost weapons to go away TBH. one of the little things lost as we get folded into the space marine codex.
Niiai wrote: At some point the SW codex will come. I do not know when, but it is not long until. Those claws will get new costs and rules then. The weapons who get new rules seems to be all the once that saw little play in 8th edition. If none played claws, those will get better to.
I'm expecting frost weapons to go away TBH. one of the little things lost as we get folded into the space marine codex.
That's a fair guess but i'll point out that in the leaked vanguard veteran squad weapon list they make the distinction between a power sword and the relic blade when they could have called them both regular power swords. it's just a guess but if they make 2 different weapons because of the weapons sculps, frost weapons having different sculps would get their own rules. A similar situation would happen with the sanguinary guard and their swords unless they are power swords already (idk about BA).
Is there no need for TWC and Wulfen in the same list? They do seem to fill a similar role.
Do Wolves have any decent and fluffy shooting units? Wolf Guard maybe?
TWC and Wulfen may have a similar role but they match very well together and TWC will get some bonus form Wulfen.
Long Fangs are good ranged shooting unit and certainly fluffy. They're devastators who don't need HQs auras. The Stormfang Gunship is also very powerful but I suggest keeping it cheap, with heavy bolters instead of meltas. This way it costs 250 points which isn't a points sink but still capable of solid supporting firepower. Of course don't bring it if it's the only vehicle or primary target in the list.
I want to know what changes are being made to frost weapons and the cost of SS on units/TWC. I hope TWC go down in point cost or they get a 4th wound to compensate for the lack of 3++.
If they go by their statement of all Full Astartes gaining a wound, TWC will gain a wound. But Wulfen will not as they don't have full power armor. (Stupid Power Capris).
Is there a place for thunder wolf cavalry in lists atm?
I use 1-2 squads as distraction carnifex's mostly. Minimum size, all with SS, two with chainswords and the leader with TH. If they get to fight extra bonus fun. They have access to some nasty strats so people are generally happy killing them. Making the Wolf attacks D2 or giving them Mortals on 6's to wound (against infantry) is pretty good. If these guys gain a wound for losing protection from the SS without gaining any more points I'll be happy. That is I expect their points to go up, but hope the SS goes down to compensate.
Wulfen could be in a rough place come the new books. If they don't gain a wound they will be just easier to kill. Mostly they get hit with high AP anyway. We'll just have to see.
SS Terminators though, I've been using 5 man packs for a while, they already kick ass. TH/SS Pack leader, TH/SS/Cyclone, SS/Stormbolterx3. In terrain with three wounds, they will be ridiculously tough with the new SS.
I want to know what changes are being made to frost weapons and the cost of SS on units/TWC. I hope TWC go down in point cost or they get a 4th wound to compensate for the lack of 3++.
If they go by their statement of all Full Astartes gaining a wound, TWC will gain a wound. But Wulfen will not as they don't have full power armor. (Stupid Power Capris).
Is there a place for thunder wolf cavalry in lists atm?
I use 1-2 squads as distraction carnifex's mostly. Minimum size, all with SS, two with chainswords and the leader with TH. If they get to fight extra bonus fun. They have access to some nasty strats so people are generally happy killing them. Making the Wolf attacks D2 or giving them Mortals on 6's to wound (against infantry) is pretty good. If these guys gain a wound for losing protection from the SS without gaining any more points I'll be happy. That is I expect their points to go up, but hope the SS goes down to compensate.
Wulfen could be in a rough place come the new books. If they don't gain a wound they will be just easier to kill. Mostly they get hit with high AP anyway. We'll just have to see.
SS Terminators though, I've been using 5 man packs for a while, they already kick ass. TH/SS Pack leader, TH/SS/Cyclone, SS/Stormbolterx3. In terrain with three wounds, they will be ridiculously tough with the new SS.
Lmao dude, those loadouts and setups are almost exactly how I run mine as well! I love it lol.
Twc in small batches with ss and chainswords are the best, they are cheap enough when you lose them its not a big deal and put out enough wounds that you can do some serious infantry clearing with them.
Personally i run my terms as 5 man ss/sb and 1 gets a cyclone as well, I dont give them cc weapons because they never end up near the actual action like that. They move around and grab objectives while "clearing the road" so more dedicated cc can get in and kill something juicy.
But yeah, almost the same setups. Got to love seeing someone else also having success with it.
So after seeing the Warcom article about masters of the chapter I decided to start working a on fun casual list with lots of dreads. Plan is to make iron priest master of the forge with warlord trait having dreads +1 attack and a Primaris Slaplain Wolf priest using hero of the chapter to get wise orator for litanies on 2+ as well as making Him master of sanctity. With mantra of strength, master crafted weapon on tales of the deep he will be 6 attacks @S7 -2 5dmg vs monsters and vehicles! Here is my list. Keep in kind it’s not finished yet but it contains basically 10 heavy flamers for clearing hordes before charging I to combat. I want to own the mid board which shouldn’t be too hard as my club uses lots of obscuring terrain.
[/spoiler]
++ Patrol Detachment 0CP (Imperium - Space Wolves) [62 PL, 1,205pts, 13CP] ++
+ Configuration +
Battle Size [12CP]: 3. Strike Force (101-200 Total PL / 1001-2000 Points)
Detachment CP
+ HQ +
Bjorn the Fell-handed [10 PL, 190pts, 1CP]: Heavy flamer, Helfrost cannon
Iron Priest on Thunderwolf [Legends] [6 PL, 125pts]: Helfrost pistol, The Armour of Russ, Thunder hammer, Warlord
Trophies of Fenris [-1CP]: Trophies of Fenris - 1 Extra Relic
+ HQ +
Primaris Wolf Priest [5 PL, 85pts, -1CP]: 4. Mantra of Strength, Master-Crafted Weapon, Saga of Majesty, Stratagem: Hero of The Chapter, Tale of the Wolf King and the Lord of the Deeps
Wulfen Dreadnought [7 PL, 140pts] . Great Wolf Claw and Blizzard Shield . . Blizzard Shield: Blizzard shield, Heavy flamer
. . Great Wolf Claw: Great Wolf Claw, Heavy flamer
Wulfen Dreadnought [7 PL, 140pts] . Great Wolf Claw and Blizzard Shield . . Blizzard Shield: Blizzard shield, Heavy flamer
. . Great Wolf Claw: Great Wolf Claw, Heavy flamer
TheunlikelyGamer wrote: So based on the reviews I’ve seen we get to use units like centurions and stormravens? I say this because they weren’t specifically excluded.
Yup. GW also slimed down some data sheets like Ven dreads have SW wargear options, Terminators can have the wolfguard keyword.
Automatically Appended Next Post: we'll see if the woulfguard keyword on regular terminators is to hold us over until we get our book or if they really replaced Wolfguard terminators
Here is the update to hold us over until the book comes out. We lost frost weapons, not the wulfen ones.
Wulfen where nerfed, we saw it coming. They get to fight in death as long as they didn't fight already, they no longer have a +1 attack aura, instead they always count as charging, and they lost advance and charge.
But TWC got a buff! they can advance and charge again! but crushing teeth and claws are capped at 3 attacks (I think this affects exploding attacks on 6s)
Wulfen Dreads have duty eternal and cleaving with the axe does D3+3 damage, Neat
We still have our Wolf Guard Terminators mixing and matching.
Sadly Long Fangs have taken a blow, they are like regular devestators but with a wolf guard leader.
That was just a skim of the sheets, i'm sure there are more changes but I think the changes are fair. TWC for the win!!!
Automatically Appended Next Post: Wulfen buff: the assault doctrine is considered active for Wulfen whenever a models make an attack, so they pretty much always have an additional -1 AP and attacks explode on 6s
Niiai wrote: I was looking through the FAQ. Can we take a Wolf Lord in Terminator armour?
Also, have Long Fangs lost a lot of their special rules?
Is there some restriction for how many Wolf Lords we can take when the Codex drops?
Wolf Lord in Terminator Armor is just a generic Captain in Terminator Armor datasheet. Same with regular Wolf Guard Battle Leader being rolled in with Lieutenants. I suspect that the limits on Captains apply to Wolf Lords as well since they are basically just Captains with a funny name (kind of like how Dark Angels ones are called "Masters").
I disagree about Wulfen getting nerfed. I didn't want to run them before but now I do. They became PL 8 meaning they take only 1cp to outflank. They can still reroll charges. They're always in Assault Doctrine and always count as having charged. This means they always have exploding sixes and they also always have +1 attack and +1 to hit.
While they kinda suffered from Storm Shield nerf they did gain a point of toughness and the weapon options outside of thunderhammer got cheaper. Oddly enough their stormshield doesn't have a cost listed but I'm sure that is a mistake.
I'm thinking a unit of 5 all with Axes (apart from the leader). That clocks in at 162 points which is a fairly reasonable costed distraction carnifex coming out of reserves. Sure they'll probably die horribly if they fail their charge but that's not a huge investment to lose. And you can always double down on that to make sure one unit makes it in.
Otherwise I'm not super sad about anything in particular, nerfs came as expected and we'll probably get more relics (Losing the best ones kinda hurt, Wulfen Stone and Armour of Russ) and stratagems and the usual warlord traits once the supplement lands. Did anyone else notice Björn's Heavy Plasma is damage 2 base?
Blackie wrote: Stormfang/wolf got a massive points hike,
more than 100 points, although it's also more deadly now. But I'm extremely disappointed for that.
Bjorn, wulfen, and TWC (5ppm shields!) slightly cheaper.
I bought both Repulsors quite recently so was properly disappointed about their sweeping nerfs.. so I'd much rather take a Stormfang than either of the Repulsors. In that context the Fang doesn't seem overly expensive, it has a lot of killing power. Not a huge fan of random number of shots though.
Killing power yes, but tough as before or actually even less considering that anti tank weapons are becoming more efficient.
I always played the gunship with lascannons and heavy bolters as 250 points wasn't bad for the whole thing, but now it's 360 (or 370 with meltas) unless you give it the missiles which are pretty terrible.
250 points + 85 for the unit inside was a good bargain, 360 + 100 is a different story. At least infantries doubled their wounds, so its cargo becomes way more effective.
Blackie wrote: Stormfang/wolf got a massive points hike,
more than 100 points, although it's also more deadly now. But I'm extremely disappointed for that.
Bjorn, wulfen, and TWC (5ppm shields!) slightly cheaper.
I bought both Repulsors quite recently so was properly disappointed about their sweeping nerfs.. so I'd much rather take a Stormfang than either of the Repulsors. In that context the Fang doesn't seem overly expensive, it has a lot of killing power. Not a huge fan of random number of shots though.
I will just shelf all the marine / Space Wolves tanks and big flyers. In 8th they were priced as if they always receive Chapter Master and LT. buff, they were already overpriced. In 9th, they get a price hike and specifically been removed from the list that those characters buff could apply, while also lost fly for Impulsor and Repulsor. So I think they have no place in SM or SW army.
Automatically Appended Next Post: I'd just take 3 packs of Long Fangs if I need fire support.
Blackie wrote: Killing power yes, but tough as before or actually even less considering that anti tank weapons are becoming more efficient.
I always played the gunship with lascannons and heavy bolters as 250 points wasn't bad for the whole thing, but now it's 360 (or 370 with meltas) unless you give it the missiles which are pretty terrible.
250 points + 85 for the unit inside was a good bargain, 360 + 100 is a different story. At least infantries doubled their wounds, so its cargo becomes way more effective.
Aww crap, forgot to count lascannon and melta array twice in the cost. Yeah that makes is a bit more salty.
Blackie wrote: Stormfang/wolf got a massive points hike,
more than 100 points, although it's also more deadly now. But I'm extremely disappointed for that.
Bjorn, wulfen, and TWC (5ppm shields!) slightly cheaper.
I bought both Repulsors quite recently so was properly disappointed about their sweeping nerfs.. so I'd much rather take a Stormfang than either of the Repulsors. In that context the Fang doesn't seem overly expensive, it has a lot of killing power. Not a huge fan of random number of shots though.
I will just shelf all the marine / Space Wolves tanks and big flyers. In 8th they were priced as if they always receive Chapter Master and LT. buff, they were already overpriced. In 9th, they get a price hike and specifically been removed from the list that those characters buff could apply, while also lost fly for Impulsor and Repulsor. So I think they have no place in SM or SW army.
Automatically Appended Next Post: I'd just take 3 packs of Long Fangs if I need fire support.
I still think the Impulsor is a great taxi for Bladeguard and a character. The problem is if you take 1-2 vehicles they're gonna get popped kinda quickly unless you hide them well, since people tend to bring antitank... *shrug*
I asked earlier, but does not the long fangs loose some of their unique rules and now have SM rules? When did they get a cherub? Or the targeting thing? I though thry just rerolled 1's?
I will just shelf all the marine / Space Wolves tanks and big flyers. In 8th they were priced as if they always receive Chapter Master and LT. buff, they were already overpriced. In 9th, they get a price hike and specifically been removed from the list that those characters buff could apply, while also lost fly for Impulsor and Repulsor. So I think they have no place in SM or SW army.
I'll still take razorbacks and rhinos. My army hasn't got a single primaris model though.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Niiai wrote: I asked earlier, but does not the long fangs loose some of their unique rules and now have SM rules? When did they get a cherub? Or the targeting thing? I though thry just rerolled 1's?
They don't get the re-roll of 1s anymore but can take a cherub yes. Unit size is still the long fangs one, not the devastators'. But they also got access to grav.
You youngsters with your gravety gun and your cherubs. When I was young we had our feet planted on the ground like Russ intended. None of this messing with gravety or deepstriking terminators.
Do note that one Long Fang can shoot at BS 2+ if the Pack leader is alive, and you can use the cherub on him to shoot twice.
Has Wolf Guard Pack Leader always been an addition to a pack? I always thought the WGPL replaces the normal PL... or am I just remembering it wrong, been so long since I played minimarines.
Wulfen also lost their 5+ FNP and did not gain an extra wound. The extra Toughness helps, but they still feel more fragile.
Ok on a 2nd look, they lost: fight twice, Advance and charge, 5+ FNP, +1 attack Aura.
Wulfen now: T5, Always counts as charging (shock assault, +1 to hit), Always count as in assault doc (additional hits on rolls of 6 to hit, and AP -1 added to weapons)
They will work great as a Heroic intervention threat, also as a counter punch to other Elite melee units (punish death stars for being too killy)
Goonhammer did a nice review of the Space Wolves index, and according to them Wulfen are now hot garbage while Thunderwolf Cavalry are amazeballs, and I tend to agree. The question is, what to put on our TWC? I've got some that have been sitting unopened since late 7th edition as well as a Canis Wolfborn that is primed but not painted, and I'd love to have an excuse to build and paint these guys.
Okay I overlooked the FnP and losing the fight twice on Wulfen. Seems they will remain benched. I ordered a box of Wulfen just to get the shields and some Wolfy bits on my Bladeguard, but I might as well leave the Wulfen guys unassembled to save time and hassle (I hate assembling btw).
TWC probably pretty barebones: Chainsword + SS on all except the boss with TH + SS? This used to be the meta earlier, guess that still works?
Weazel wrote: Okay I overlooked the FnP and losing the fight twice on Wulfen. Seems they will remain benched. I ordered a box of Wulfen just to get the shields and some Wolfy bits on my Bladeguard, but I might as well leave the Wulfen guys unassembled to save time and hassle (I hate assembling btw).
TWC probably pretty barebones: Chainsword + SS on all except the boss with TH + SS? This used to be the meta earlier, guess that still works?
Or just Powerfist. Is it 11pts now? It has better AP than TH, so they could be comparable in usage but PF is much lower in cost.
Weazel wrote: Okay I overlooked the FnP and losing the fight twice on Wulfen. Seems they will remain benched. I ordered a box of Wulfen just to get the shields and some Wolfy bits on my Bladeguard, but I might as well leave the Wulfen guys unassembled to save time and hassle (I hate assembling btw).
TWC probably pretty barebones: Chainsword + SS on all except the boss with TH + SS? This used to be the meta earlier, guess that still works?
Or just Powerfist. Is it 11pts now? It has better AP than TH, so they could be comparable in usage but PF is much lower in cost.
Well yeah powerfists are the meta, I suppose I can proxy my TH guys as PF. *shrug* Not in the mood for getting more TWC at this point. Their big bases make them kinda clumsy.
I'd keep them cheap, with D1-2 weapons. Some chainswords mostly, maybe a couple of fists. Shields for everyone.
I don't think TWC have suddenly become amazing while wulfen are trash, there's too much hyperbole in that. IMHOTWC are now good and wulfen are now meh. I'll use both in my first games with the new rules.
I'm looking for a relic to my warlord now that both Wulfen Stone and Armour of Russ are gone. I'll probably go with Wyrmsplitter for a TWC wolf lord, cheaper (115pts or 125 with shield) than the old TH/SS loadout but still interesting.
Wulfen Might have lost their cheese but imo I think they are better than the Blade guard veterans. I'm looking forward to running Wulfen dreads nothing but buffs on them
Jimbobbyish wrote: Wulfen Might have lost their cheese but imo I think they are better than the Blade guard veterans. I'm looking forward to running Wulfen dreads nothing but buffs on them
Umm, no. W3 2+/4++ with access to Transhuman Physiology is from Planet Vastly Superior compared to Wulfen. They are beasts in melee as well with Vicious Executioners available.
Going to probably stick with just 6 Bladeguard, because buying heavily into FoTM never ends too well.
Weazel wrote: Okay I overlooked the FnP and losing the fight twice on Wulfen. Seems they will remain benched. I ordered a box of Wulfen just to get the shields and some Wolfy bits on my Bladeguard, but I might as well leave the Wulfen guys unassembled to save time and hassle (I hate assembling btw).
TWC probably pretty barebones: Chainsword + SS on all except the boss with TH + SS? This used to be the meta earlier, guess that still works?
I'd go with a lighting claw over a chainsword. the benifits are pretty nuts
I, for one, am a little disappointed in the way this new codex is playing out. I hope the supp gives us back some of our individuality. I suppose we gain a lot of the same tricks that SM players can pull off, but I didn't start SW to play a SM chapter, ya' know? Anyway I digress.
Does the new chief apothecary ressurrection seem like a solid buy for a unit of TWC?
And the way dreadnaughts are now, being core and the new duty eternal hotness, What's the best type and loadout for dreadnaughts now?
Apothecarys, Assault Squads, Devistator squads, sternguard vets, tactical squads, or vanguard vets. Page 124 of the codex.
We will probably get wolf priests back with the supplement. i wouldn't be too concerned about it at the moment. At the moment our wolf priests are just normal chaplains.
Jimbobbyish wrote: Wulfen Might have lost their cheese but imo I think they are better than the Blade guard veterans. I'm looking forward to running Wulfen dreads nothing but buffs on them
Umm, no. W3 2+/4++ with access to Transhuman Physiology is from Planet Vastly Superior compared to Wulfen. They are beasts in melee as well with Vicious Executioners available.
Going to probably stick with just 6 Bladeguard, because buying heavily into FoTM never ends too well.
Wulfen have S5, T5 3+/4++ with access to Transhuman Physiology and with their rules (+1 attack, additional AP-1, +1 attack that auto hits on 6s, +1 to hit rolls). Even if blade guard veterans charge first and kill a bunch, Wulfin still get to attack will all attacks at (if using TH/SS) 4 attacks, hitting on 3 with 6s adds 1 additional hit , S10, ap -3, damage 3.
While they kinda suffered from Storm Shield nerf they did gain a point of toughness and the weapon options outside of thunderhammer got cheaper. Oddly enough their stormshield doesn't have a cost listed but I'm sure that is a mistake.
TH/SS for wulfin have a combined cost, under Wolfguard terminators the TH and SS add up to the same cost
Jimbobbyish wrote: Wulfen Might have lost their cheese but imo I think they are better than the Blade guard veterans. I'm looking forward to running Wulfen dreads nothing but buffs on them
Umm, no. W3 2+/4++ with access to Transhuman Physiology is from Planet Vastly Superior compared to Wulfen. They are beasts in melee as well with Vicious Executioners available.
Going to probably stick with just 6 Bladeguard, because buying heavily into FoTM never ends too well.
Wulfen have S5, T5 3+/4++ with access to Transhuman Physiology and with their rules (+1 attack, additional AP-1, +1 attack that auto hits on 6s, +1 to hit rolls). Even if blade guard veterans charge first and kill a bunch, Wulfin still get to attack will all attacks at (if using TH/SS) 4 attacks, hitting on 3 with 6s adds 1 additional hit , S10, ap -3, damage 3.
While they kinda suffered from Storm Shield nerf they did gain a point of toughness and the weapon options outside of thunderhammer got cheaper. Oddly enough their stormshield doesn't have a cost listed but I'm sure that is a mistake.
TH/SS for wulfin have a combined cost, under Wolfguard terminators the TH and SS add up to the same cost
Transhuman Physiology is for Primaris only, so there's that. I'm just not impressed with Wulfen durability, especially since the only taxis they can get are Land Raiders and Stormwolves. Both of which are ridiculously overpriced for what they are. Impulsor is a lot easier sell. In a game where durability is KEY I will take Bladeguard over Wulfen every day of the week. I mean Wulfen still hit hard I'm not denying that, but they are a complete glass cannon. I might try them at some point but don't fool yourself into thinking that Wulfen are any kind of "meta" at this point. Just my 2c.
Wulfen definitely are not meta, they are slightly faster, more punch blade guard vets with less durability. They still have a place, but its not the top tier omg run 3 squads of 5 and win that they were in 8th. And thats fine with me, I never bought into them hard anyways. But I do see a single squad of 5 hiding behind obscured terrain as a great counter charge unit.
Azuza001 wrote: Wulfen definitely are not meta, they are slightly faster, more punch blade guard vets with less durability. They still have a place, but its not the top tier omg run 3 squads of 5 and win that they were in 8th. And thats fine with me, I never bought into them hard anyways. But I do see a single squad of 5 hiding behind obscured terrain as a great counter charge unit.
This. When all of the top lists are running only wulfen in our elite slots, it seems like a change is needed. They are still durable, but also seem to fill a support roll giving rerolled charges for a squad of TWC or helping a jump pack squad of Wolfguard with Shields and Fists get that charge off. Rather than a front line now are they almost better as a counter charge unit?
I would be interested to see if they get further tweaks in the supplement.
Ragnar69 wrote: As they can't get rerolls anymore and the SS got nerfed, they are now probably used with axes. For 162 points their aren't too bad
I could see giving up on the 5-shield squads. But with everything else on the table going up in wounds and these guys staying at 2, I think you'll need a few shields to keep them alive. Also in cover they are now sporting a 2+ armor save with the shield on. Which could drastically help their resistance to massed small arms fire.
Ultimately I think these guys still have a place along side TWC, being able to move through breachable terrain to get to juicy targets could catch some opponents off-guard.
I still think frost claws are best left to the leader. My favorite loadout has been 2 hammer/shields, 2 axes.
Speaking of Wulfen, Wulfen dread with Axe/shield vs Ven dread with axe/shield. Duty eternal really helps their survivability, combined with 4++ puts them over other dreads. But would you take 8"M and re-roll charges, or 6+++?
It can smokescreen, but there isnt anything a wulfen dread can do that a ven can't beyond the 6+++. But I have had that 6+++ save may bacon too many times over the course of games that I will take the extra chance for survival over the extra 2" move. Otherwise what a wulfen dread can do over a venerable dreadnought.... any other bonuses they can pull honestly at the end of the day a ven would do the same amount of dmg.
So 6" move and 6+++ or 8" movement and reroll charges. Take your pick :p.
I prefer better movement and re-roll charges. It's a unit that I want to be in combat as soon as possible, adding 1-2 extra wounds thanks to the 6+++ doesn't look that appealing to me: if I can't reach the target the dread is going to die without doing anything anyway.
Blackie wrote: I prefer better movement and re-roll charges. It's a unit that I want to be in combat as soon as possible, adding 1-2 extra wounds thanks to the 6+++ doesn't look that appealing to me: if I can't reach the target the dread is going to die without doing anything anyway.
Yeah I feel yeah, with the improved Axe Cleave our dreads can really mix it up with infantry and vehicles/monsters.
Jimbobbyish wrote: Shoot I didn't consider adding a Master of the Forge, +1 attack for our deards and healing 3 damage would really push dreads over the edge.
They're still only T7 W8 models. Curious if you have a game plan how to get them across the board? Especially with stuff like Eradicators existing within the game. 4++ save only goes so far. This is a legit question since I love dreads and would like to use them but they always seem to fall a little flat. Murderfang I might still use, since he was criminally undercosted at 135 so a 15 point hike is not unreasonable. Sure he lost double fight from Only in Death Does Duty End and Core keyword, but he can still put down the hurt and is still a character.
Niiai wrote: I really like the -1 damage though. It means D2 does very little. Even D3 is quite bad vs them.
My Dreads are getting killed by Lascannons, Missiles etc, doesn't really help that much against them. Don't get me wrong, I love a free Duty Eternal but they're still a bit squishy. Going to try them for sure but not holding my breath. Maybe a Blizzard Shield Wulfen dread with his 8" move and rerollable charge might actually reach melee every once in a while. Maybe even two of those backed up by Murderfang. Might give some breathing room for Impulsors for a turn or two.
You are facing missiles in 8th/9th edition? I thought that was unheard of. Lascannons I can understand.
My ork opponent has a Morkanaut who does D6 damage. Some rockets (D3) and flash gits (D2.) They deal with my nids and GSC very well. But I doubt it would do much vs dreadnoughts.
Wolf Guard with jump packs are basically Vanguard Veterans, but with access to some nice Wolf Guard specific strats. They seem like a very good deal now.
Space Wolves are also one of a few armies that can still use a Judiciar effectively with their better heroic interventions.
A min squad of Skyclaws with wolf guard can take 3 special weapons and a combi for what that's worth, 4 flamers when deep striking then charging (results may very)
Jimbobbyish wrote: A min squad of Skyclaws with wolf guard can take 3 special weapons and a combi for what that's worth, 4 flamers when deep striking then charging (results may very)
Good call. However if you kit them out with full melta (3 meltaguns+ 1 combi) it is 160 points for 4 melta shots. It makes me sad you'll get 6 melta shots for 120 points if you take Eradicators. Sure, Skyclaws are faster and they have some assault punch (and meltabomb) as well but yeah... Don't want this to become an Eradicator trash thread but they should be at least 50ppm.
Man, I am feeling a bit hyped for SM. After I have finished my GSC (probably by the end of the year) I am thinking about getting into SW again.
I stoped playing SW when 6th edition came rolling in. I played some DE in 6th before i gave up.
So what I have are a whole lot of firstborn marines. How do they compare with the primsris option? In particular how do the Swiftclaw bikes compare to those new primaris bikes? Are the old index options stil legal?
I did all sorts of SW lists. Agresive drop pod lists. Grey hunters in transports, backed up by longfangs. Biker squads. Flamer/melta landspeeders. And of courde i loved the wolf rider models. Are any of this OK?
I also really REALLY loved wolf guards. You could peel them of and put them in different squad. That means you could get 2 heavy weapon terminators in a five man squad (because you had peeled off 5 others.) Further you could mix power armour and terminatir armour. I really loved that.
Index options are all dead. Also Swiftclaws are no more, they are just regular bikers. Outriders are fine, not spectacular by any means, and they are 15 points more expensive than old bikes. Old bikes can also take special and melee weapons and are not limited to just 3 models. You actually only lose one wound and get worse bolters as regular bikes compared to outriders, so I would say normal bikes might still work okay. Probably not super competitive and your fast attack slots are going to be contested, because:
Thunderwolf Cavalry got significantly better, close to the point of being autoincludes in competitive lists. So if you like them good news for you.
Wolf Guard Pack Leader rules are also pretty much intact.
So most of what you said are still legit, possibly not top shelf competitive but passable at least.
Looking at the thuderwolves they can replace their chainsword for a shield. They replace the pistol for another weapon. This seems very odd to me, but OK. It is what it is.
Do any of you see any odballs in there? For the most part I imagine we will se at least 1 powerfist/hammer and shield, just for the S8 attack. 60/65 points.
But are we gonne se shield/gun for 50 points? You loose out of the chainsword: Going from 3 S4 Ap1 d1 + 3 S5 Ap2 d1 to 2 S4 Ap0 d1 + 3 S5 Ap2 d1 does not seem so bad. The 2+ 4++ on a T5 4W seems well worth it.
What do you think of taking a shield and claw/axe/maul/sword or just a chainsword and claw/axe/maul/sword for 55 or 50 points? I can not deside.
Claws are 75% chance to wound vs T4. 88% to wound vs T3. 55% to wound vs T5. I am not sure how it compares to sword or axe. Maul seems unesasery, even with S6 vs T3.
I'm going with claw and shield for everyone in a 5 man squad. 1-2 chainswords if I really struggle with points and can't shave from enything else. For just 5 points (and a ton of multidamage weapons around) the shield is a must.
OK. I do not know if the claw is worth it for 5 points as you stil have a lot of attacks. I would also have some form of Sx2 weapon in there as you never know what you will meet. I respect your take on it though.
Some other questions, can wulfen now take regular transports beeing troops and all? And can SW terminators ride in a drop pod, either singel unit, or as a part of another unit?
Also some other questions:
How is the attack bike squad? Can the leader take a specialweapon/melta, and 2 members can take a melta? So that squad can have 3 models and 3 meltas (or flamers?)
Blackie wrote: I'm going with claw and shield for everyone in a 5 man squad. 1-2 chainswords if I really struggle with points and can't shave from enything else. For just 5 points (and a ton of multidamage weapons around) the shield is a must.
I can appreciate the claw love. I think I would still put a powerfist/hammer on the pack leader. It can really ensure the kill when you come up against a monster/vehicle. Not only that, but your opponent will inherently see them as more threatening because of the higher strength and high AP weaponry, allowing them to soak more hate as a true distraction carnifex-style unit.
Two questions: Wolf guards, are stormshields for them only 4 points? Next question, wolf guards in terminator armour have the option for stormshields, but their prise is not listed. What is up with that?
Persobally I think 1+ 4++ 3 wound models sounds tasty. At least they are hard to shift.
Weazel wrote: Index options are all dead. Also Swiftclaws are no more, they are just regular bikers. Outriders are fine, not spectacular by any means, and they are 15 points more expensive than old bikes. Old bikes can also take special and melee weapons and are not limited to just 3 models. You actually only lose one wound and get worse bolters as regular bikes compared to outriders, so I would say normal bikes might still work okay. Probably not super competitive and your fast attack slots are going to be contested, because:
Thunderwolf Cavalry got significantly better, close to the point of being autoincludes in competitive lists. So if you like them good news for you.
Wolf Guard Pack Leader rules are also pretty much intact.
So most of what you said are still legit, possibly not top shelf competitive but passable at least.
swiftclaws are regular bikes, however they can be taken in a MUCH larger squad size, so thats worth noting.
Niiai wrote: OK. I do not know if the claw is worth it for 5 points as you stil have a lot of attacks. I would also have some form of Sx2 weapon in there as you never know what you will meet. I respect your take on it though.
It depends on what role you need for those TWC. I typically play them to wipe out hordes to max out their S5 potential granted by the the cavalry. Claws help a lot if the goal is to kill units like 30 boyz, now a 5 man squad of TWC can actually do it and with that many attacks with some AP they can also be a threat to heavy infantry. I don't think TWC are worth of the anti monster/vehicle role, I prefer termies, characters and ranged weapons for that. Sticking a single high strenght weapon in the squad isn't wrong though.
Niiai wrote: I do not know what to think about the bikes loosing the +1 attack on a charge and now loosing out on that new sweet chainsword as well.
I have not looked at the models in while, but preatty shure i modeled them with chainswords. :-p
"Any number of Space Marine Bikers can each have their bolt pistol replaced with 1 Astartes Chainsword." Also they have Angels of Death so they get +1 attack on the charge (and when charged or heroically intervene). So I'm not sure what you mean?
Ah, no I am not sure I know what I mean either. Through my 20 years of playing the game I have never used Space Marine Bikers, only the space wolf version. I am not buying the SM codex, I will buy the SW codex. I am just trying to plan a list from my old 5th edition marines. I really loved the fast attack slot. Often with many bikes.
Niiai wrote: Ah, no I am not sure I know what I mean either. Through my 20 years of playing the game I have never used Space Marine Bikers, only the space wolf version. I am not buying the SM codex, I will buy the SW codex. I am just trying to plan a list from my old 5th edition marines. I really loved the fast attack slot. Often with many bikes.
It is just hard to understand the unit entry.
there is no space wolf codex, only a supplement. it's a little more expensive but it's honestly not that bad. we gained more then we've lost.
I think I am in love with terninators in this new codex. Picture this:
3 x stormshield/powersword
1 x powerfist/stormbolter
1 x cyclone missile launcher, powerfist
200 points, a bargain shurly.
Good for waddeling out and grabbing an objective. Good at charging things of objectives. The 2 stormbolters and missile launcher means they can give a reach out if the opponent ignores them. But more importantly T4 3W 1+ 4++ is very resilient for 33 points. I really like them!
In a 2000 point army having one or two of these will be a headace for your opponent to shift away from objectives I think. What do you think?
Yeah, I haven't picked up the codex yet. I have been basing things off of the index, and I didn't see teleport strike under the Wolf Guard Terminators entry in the index.
With teleport strike they can easily help score secondary objectives and be a thorn in your opponents side. If you go first you can either drop them near objective turn one for a "hold the line!" kind of approach. If you go second it would be an option to drop them into your opponents side of the table to draw fire while the jaws of the wolf close in on them from the other side!
They could score engage on all fronts pretty easily and, with their resilience, could stick around to continue providing that score unless your opponent is wise enough to dedicate themselves to wiping them out.
I wanted to get your feedback of a first draft of a list I was working on. Feel I was hampered by not owning the codex.
Main plan is to have some long range pressense turn 1 and 2 in laser razrobacks and long fangs. Then from turn 2 forwards I will be able to threaten my opponent with good melee units and what ever is left of my ranged suport. Terminators are to hold mid objective as an unmovable force.
Not really sure about the rhino with grey hunters in as it is rather exspensive. I would love to have more units in the list. I feel like I am loosing out on 'cute' units like a counter charge dreadnought. And 5 wolf guards with combi flamers and jump packs.
Spoiler:
HQ:
Wolf Lord on Thunderwolf, Thunder hammer Stormshield. 140 points.
Wolf Guard Battle leader on Thunderwolf, Thunder hammer, Stormshield. 125 points.
Troops:
9x Grey Hunters, 1x Wolf Guard
10x Chainsword
1x Wolf Standar
2x Power Fist
1x Flamer
1x Combi-flamer 220 points
The Sergeant is equipped with a Storm Bolter and Power Sword, the others are equipped with a Storm Bolter and Power Fist.
Point 1 allows any model to replace it's power sword or power fist with a chainfist, a lightning claw, a power axe, a power fist, a power maul, a thunder hammer, or a storm shield.
Point 2 allows any model to replace it's storm bolter with a chainfist, a lightning claw, a power axe, a power fist, a power sword, a power maul, a thunder hammer, or a combi-weapon.
This means, that you cannot equip the regular guys with power sword + storm bolter. They start with a power first, and none of the things they can trade it out for are a power sword. If they want a power sword, they have to trade their storm bolter for it. Which is just kind of passively interesting to notice.
I'm also slightly confused as to whether or not the regular guys have to buy the power fist for 5 points, or if it's free and baked into them. Power Fist has a 5 point cost on the points cost table for them, but all the other units don't have to pay for their starting loadouts.
My previous list was pretty in on WG Terminators, but in general I'm not sure if I'm feeling them so much right now. The Storm Shield nerf, combined with the Thunder Hammer nerf, doesn't make me so hot on them anymore.
That said, previously I was running:
Pack Leader: Thunder Hammer, Storm Shield
WG Terminator: Storm Shield, Assault Cannon
WG Terminator: Thunder Hammer, Storm Shield
WG Terminator: Storm Shield, Storm Bolter
WG Terminator: Storm Shield, Storm Bolter
I might consider this still a valid loadout, but I might also consider trading the Thunder Hammer for Chainfists. Chainfists are now decidedly better against vehicles and stuff, and with better AP will put down marine-like infantry more reliably than the hammers will [particularly ]. Hammers will be better against Aggressors and Eradicators.
I don't think it's worth mixing the D1d3 damage Chainfists and D1 power axes [since no Storm Shield/Sword] in the same unit. You can't like set it up efficiently to have an axe hit finish off every model that was wounded but not slain by a Chainfist, so you're just kind of keeping the axes around for whacking W1 high save models. I'm not sure if that's more or less valuable than having a Storm Bolter, or maybe even another combi-weapon like a Combi-Plasma, to do gak with.
which would be a pretty lethal unit that can come in off the drop and light something up with shooting without having to rely on making a 9" charge, but can also proceed to go on a shred stuff in melee with the chainfists.
Also, with regards to Wulfen: As far as thunder hammer bearers go, I think I'd definitely chose Wulfen to bear the hammers over Terminators. Yeah, Wulfen don't have the save or the extra wound, but like, at the same time, the Wulfen are always in assault doctrine, can re-roll charges meaning they're more likely to get stuck in coming off the outflank and actually use those beaty sticks, have more attacks, and are faster after arrival to keep using them.
I'm not entirely keen on shelling out for a whole unit of thunder hammers though on my wulfen, I'm thinking of going 2 with hammers, since 8 attacks on the charge exploding on 6's ought to kill pretty much anything [except a Dreadnought. F*** Duty Eternal] and 2 with Axes since the Axes are S8, AP4, D2 [read: perfect anti-marine] and cost 8 points less each. Sure, it's only a 16 points saving, but 16 point savings add up.
Finally, with regards to TWC:
Claws are 5, Fists are 10, the body on the dog if 45 out of the gate, 50 with a shield. I really like their general profiles, but I'm not entirely certain what melee weapons I want.
On one hand, the dogs should be plenty good enough at killing the crud out of any W1 infantry unit I come across, so I feel like I should buy fists for them [or even hammers, but I'm eh on hammers now that they cost a lot and are only AP2]. On the other hand, fists add up and have that -1 to hit, so the claws might work out pretty okay anyway
Right. I was thinking of that when I put together the unit. But forgot when I went back to touch up the list. I do not know if I need the storm bolter.
I am not a fan of the assault cannon. 6 shots, S6 AP1 is very bad compared to the cyclone missile launcher in my eyes. You want the cyclone missile launcher to krack open transports. Or to lend some help far away. They can ignore the termiators, but that means you grab points and shoot with 2 rockets (40% of a long fang squad.) If they do not ignore you they have to shift the terminators witch I think on paper looks very dificult.
Regarding the thunder hammer, while it is exspensive and not so good AP, I think you will find an upswing in 3 wound models. Bikes and terminators will be hard to kill with a 2 wound weapon I think. It will depend on the list.
I am not sure about the combi plasma terminators. Rolling a 1 when overcharging means you can blow up! You also loose out on a lot of melee action.
I have really enjoyed a switch from combi-plasma to combi-melta, in general.
Really getting in and popping vehicles and you can still do serious damage to an elite unit.
Personally I run my Terminators as melee with 2x Shield/hammer, 2x Twin lightning claw, and the Leader has a chainfist and a Combi-Melta just to soften up a tough vehicle or something if need be on the turn they drop in.
Edit: I have been considering a modification to make a unit that has 3 Shield/combi-melta, and 2xshield/chain fist. But I don't have enough bits for the combi-melta at the moment!
And popping arms off of guys is tough since its all solidly glued already.
Niiai wrote: Right. I was thinking of that when I put together the unit. But forgot when I went back to touch up the list. I do not know if I need the storm bolter.
I am not a fan of the assault cannon. 6 shots, S6 AP1 is very bad compared to the cyclone missile launcher in my eyes. You want the cyclone missile launcher to krack open transports. Or to lend some help far away. They can ignore the termiators, but that means you grab points and shoot with 2 rockets (40% of a long fang squad.) If they do not ignore you they have to shift the terminators witch I think on paper looks very dificult.
Regarding the thunder hammer, while it is exspensive and not so good AP, I think you will find an upswing in 3 wound models. Bikes and terminators will be hard to kill with a 2 wound weapon I think. It will depend on the list.
I am not sure about the combi plasma terminators. Rolling a 1 when overcharging means you can blow up! You also loose out on a lot of melee action.
You don't need to fully kit the squad for melee. You only need to have enough weapons to make anything you touch unhappy. Any extra melee weapons are overkill, and wasted points. In this case, 7 attacks on the forward go with a Chainfist or Thunder Hammer will kill almost any heavy infantry or vehicle model you come across. The only units that can expect to survive are things like large sections of Terminators or Aggressors. If you're really uncertain, add an extra Chainfist/Hammer and go to 10 attacks.
I'm also definitely not up on the cyclone box for Terminators. Heavy 6 S6 AP1 D1 for 10 points is pretty good compared to 2 shots S8 AP2 D1d6 for 25. Like, they're not going to blow up any tanks with their Cyclone box, and also that's what Eradicators are for.
I don't know about taking combi-meltas. They won't be in short range on the drop, and there's no way to extend their range, so if I give them combi-meltas then I'm basically counting on having guys with meltaguns left on turn 3, and given that I kill the gun/shield guys first to save my chainfist guys, I'm not sure about that. I could see dropping the assault cannon entirely for another storm shield plasmagun guy or something.
That's a fair point. I am just SUPER paranoid about losing expensive units to a bad overcharged plasma roll. I have had some pretty bad luck with that. So, I am probably just jaded ha ha.
Axxion51 wrote: That's a fair point. I am just SUPER paranoid about losing expensive units to a bad overcharged plasma roll. I have had some pretty bad luck with that. So, I am probably just jaded ha ha.
Have a wolf lord hang out with them. 1/36 chance of a guy dying per shot, overcharge away.
Those plasguns will also do better in the marine-on-marine matchup.
Finally, with regards to TWC:
Claws are 5, Fists are 10, the body on the dog if 45 out of the gate, 50 with a shield. I really like their general profiles, but I'm not entirely certain what melee weapons I want.
On one hand, the dogs should be plenty good enough at killing the crud out of any W1 infantry unit I come across, so I feel like I should buy fists for them [or even hammers, but I'm eh on hammers now that they cost a lot and are only AP2]. On the other hand, fists add up and have that -1 to hit, so the claws might work out pretty okay anyway
Don't forget that for 1cp the dogs are going to be pretty good at killing 2W infantry. And that with 6 attacks a model viscous executioners are going to put out some decent mortal wounds on infantry.
Yeah, that 1cp for 2 wound stratagem is really good.
What is viscous executioners?
The wolf lord hangout makes those plasma shots much better. I notice that old Bjorn the Fellhand also lets you re-roll hit rolls of one.
Viscous Executioners is 1cp Strategem. Use on Wolf Guard in fight phase only, for every natural 6 to wound they deal 1 mortal wound to Infantry only. If you have a way to re-roll wounds (Battle Leader, Lightning/Wolf Claws) it gets even better.
Well the thunder wolf cavalery also have the wolf guard keyword. So props to blackie who wanted to do claws on them.
The way I read it it also help on the attacks form the thunderwolves as well, even though they are only mounts.
You can also use this stratagem with the terminators in the shooting phase. It looks more and more tasty to have 10 of them babysat by a character and shooting plasma.
"Fury of the First (1 CP): Select a TERMINATOR unit during either the shooting or fight phase. This unit adds +1 to their hit rolls. Now your termies won't need a chaplain to babysit them." Re-rolling 1's, hitting on 2's. Yes please. I mean, SW are the only once who can take combi plasma on their terminators (outside of characters) that is made for SW..
I've kitted my wolf guard termy squad out with a claw on one hand and a stormbolter in the other, when I did it up it was mostly more an aestetic choice, as when I put them together termies wheren't super compeitive, but now I think that might be one of the better builds for a WGT squad.
FWIW Wolf Guard Terminators do have the Teleport Strike special rule. So they work just as before. Strangely they don't have Teleport Homers special rule while normal Terminator squads do and they have the Wolf Guard keyword. So it's probably just an oversight.
Axxion51 wrote: That's a fair point. I am just SUPER paranoid about losing expensive units to a bad overcharged plasma roll. I have had some pretty bad luck with that. So, I am probably just jaded ha ha.
Me too. In fact I only give plasmas to grey hunters. Long fangs were also good but losing their ability to re-roll 1s is a hit for plasma cannons, now they might need a babysitting lord which isn't something you really want.
Weazel wrote: FWIW Wolf Guard Terminators do have the Teleport Strike special rule. So they work just as before. Strangely they don't have Teleport Homers special rule while normal Terminator squads do and they have the Wolf Guard keyword. So it's probably just an oversight.
But normal deepstriking is still allowed.
I don't have my book on hand at the moment, but I think assault terminators do not have Teleport Homers as well.
Automatically Appended Next Post: I assume People are running 5 man TWC squads to avoid blast right? I'm planning to run 3 squads of 4, each with 1 TH/SS, 2 LC/SS, and 1 twin LCs.
I like the TWC, but that is more because I have fond memories of them.
I resently watched how ny old once looked and I can honestly say I was terrible at skulpting fur. I took some cold once and paked them full of green stuff. Then I dotted the greenstuff. Not my best.
Weazel wrote: FWIW Wolf Guard Terminators do have the Teleport Strike special rule. So they work just as before. Strangely they don't have Teleport Homers special rule while normal Terminator squads do and they have the Wolf Guard keyword. So it's probably just an oversight.
But normal deepstriking is still allowed.
I don't have my book on hand at the moment, but I think assault terminators do not have Teleport Homers as well.
Automatically Appended Next Post: I assume People are running 5 man TWC squads to avoid blast right? I'm planning to run 3 squads of 4, each with 1 TH/SS, 2 LC/SS, and 1 twin LCs.
Assault Terminator Squad and Terminator Squad both have Teleport Homers special rule. I would be interested to hear the reasoning if Wolf Guard Terminators don't receive it. It's a pretty steep price to pay for a little more versatility with loadouts.
Any chanses of a big change for terminators in codex release?
Maybe minor points changes. But no, I wouldn't expect major changes.
What is the best way to equip him? Twin lascannon and flamer? He will ve walking/guarding terminators on the mid objective. Lascannons for AT?
Given the points for his weapons, the Heavy Plasma Cannon, or Multi-Melta are both solid choices. The Twin Las is nice, but for the points I'd just go with the Multi-Melta and push him forward with the troops. However if you want him to sit back then you could go with Twin Las. The Assault Cannon and Helfrost are both garbage. Not that they are bad weapons. Just they are not cheaper than better weapons.
I prefer the Hellfrost Cannon to multi melta or heavy plasma cannon instead.
Multi meltas outside melta range aren't that great, 5 points more expensive, and Bjorn is a footslogger. Heavy plasma cannon is much better than the hellfrost using the dispersed profile but slightly inferior using the focussed profile, and now that he can't re-roll 1s I'd avoid causing mortal wounds on himself. IMHO it's a call between this two. Twin las is the most effective weapon but also the most expensive one.
Twin lascannon is not included in the kit, I got one from a SM ven dread by a bitz site so I can switch all the options, there's not even need to magnetize the arm.
Grey Hunters/Blood Claws are better then regular tactical squad marines IMHO. But they need transport support. Nothing wrong with that, but they eat points out of the list.
It seems like a good idea to just take a small minimum unit of troops. Intercessor Squads in minimum numbers, perhaps with a grenade launcher seems to be cheap to just grab 3 and sitt them down in mid objectives for some honest work. While the rest 1700/1685 points of your list puts 'in the work'. Probably Heavy Interscessors could be nice to sit on home objective and shoot. (These are not out yet for sales though, is that correct?)
Regular Interscessors have the shoot twice stratagem, and assualt interscessors have the fight twice stratagem. It does not seem worth the CP in my eyes. Assault interscessors are just bad/exspesnive greyhunters/bloodclaws and they need transport.
Is anyone ever going to spend 1CP to pop smoke on a Rhino? I can see why they made it an as-and-when ability, given that it can be quite a lot of bookkeeping, but putting that kind of cost on it (and restricting it to one unit in the whole army) is a bit steep. Night Lords might use their equivalent strat on like a Deathstar unit, and definitely a shield dread or whatever is a solid choice, but on a cheap transport that wants to field in pairs or more?
Grey Hunters/Blood Claws are better then regular tactical squad marines IMHO. But they need transport support. Nothing wrong with that, but they eat points out of the list.
It seems like a good idea to just take a small minimum unit of troops. Intercessor Squads in minimum numbers, perhaps with a grenade launcher seems to be cheap to just grab 3 and sitt them down in mid objectives for some honest work. While the rest 1700/1685 points of your list puts 'in the work'. Probably Heavy Interscessors could be nice to sit on home objective and shoot. (These are not out yet for sales though, is that correct?)
Regular Interscessors have the shoot twice stratagem, and assualt interscessors have the fight twice stratagem. It does not seem worth the CP in my eyes. Assault interscessors are just bad/exspesnive greyhunters/bloodclaws and they need transport.
What do you people think?
If you're running Grey Hunters, you're running them as plasgun carriers [maybe melta carriers].
If you're running Bolter Dudes, you're running Intercessors with Bolt Rifles.
If you're planning to get stuck in, Assault Intercessors w/ Hammer, Auto Bolt Rifle Intercessors w/ Hammer, or Blood Claws is what you're looking for.
Not yet sure about Heavy Intercessors, but probably for sitting fat marines on objectives and saying "it's mine now". They don't look that impressive in firepower, which makes me hesitant on them.
If you're looking for cheap slot filler, you're out of luck.
I would say 3 naked regular interscessors are the cheap slot fillers for 315 points. No matter what happens you need something on objectives. That would be them.
Niiai wrote: I would say 3 naked regular interscessors are the cheap slot fillers for 315 points. No matter what happens you need something on objectives. That would be them.
maybe, heavy intercessors might be best if you just want buts to plant on objectives
Buts on objectives i would probably still go with grey hunters, but it depends on where the objectives I want them to sit on are.. Here me out.
I agree with Inquisitor Lord Katherine on the rolls layed out, I have been doing grey hunters with plasma all of 8th and still think that's the typical way to run them. 10 man squad, 3 plasma guns and a plasma pistol. Easy. (Yes I know 1 is technically a combi plasma but no one shoots the bolter part so....)
But a 90 pt, bare 5 man squad of grey hunters putting out 10 bolter shots and able to dish out 10 cc attacks at ap-1 on a mid field objective should be able to not only help support the rest of the army but is just strong enough to hold its own against anyone else in the same category and probably win in a fight. I think they are pt for pt one of our better cost efficient units for this job. For back field objectives I am going to stick with 5 man stalker bolt rifle intercessors because
A. I am not buying anymore 'new marines' just because gw put them out there
B. I have more than enough to make my army work just fine as it is at this point
C. Stalker bolt rifles are still pretty good
If your looking at it from the "i am new getting into this army what should I get" the new gravis troops may have some appeal. But for people who already own intercessors/blood claws/grey hunters i have to question the value of what the new gravis guys bring over what we already have and can do.
I’m probably more likely to take stalker bolt rifles now they’ve lost their sniper strat
It”s paradoxical, but before I always felt that they wanted to be a big unit to take best advantage of their strat, but taking ten always felt like an excessive buy-in for a backfield unit
Now that their role is more clearly defined as basic fire support, I don’t feel so worried about chasing a sweet spot of points & CP efficiency
lindsay40k wrote: Is anyone ever going to spend 1CP to pop smoke on a Rhino? I can see why they made it an as-and-when ability, given that it can be quite a lot of bookkeeping, but putting that kind of cost on it (and restricting it to one unit in the whole army) is a bit steep. Night Lords might use their equivalent strat on like a Deathstar unit, and definitely a shield dread or whatever is a solid choice, but on a cheap transport that wants to field in pairs or more?
If the Rhino is the only unit holding an objective that decides whether I get 10 or 15 VP next command phase then damn straight I'm going to pop smoke. It's situational, but not a bad stratagem by any means. Most importantly you don't lose out on shooting say with a Predator or Repulsor just for popping smoke.
Also anecdotally I had 7000 points of Space Wolves yet they released new Ragnar who can't fit into oldmarine transport so I kinda stepped through the rubicon and don't want to use oldmarines anymore outside of occasional Long Fangs or Wolf Guard Terminators. My Grey Hunters and Blood Claws look absolutely daft compared to Intercessor sweetness.
lindsay40k wrote: Is anyone ever going to spend 1CP to pop smoke on a Rhino? I can see why they made it an as-and-when ability, given that it can be quite a lot of bookkeeping, but putting that kind of cost on it (and restricting it to one unit in the whole army) is a bit steep. Night Lords might use their equivalent strat on like a Deathstar unit, and definitely a shield dread or whatever is a solid choice, but on a cheap transport that wants to field in pairs or more?
If the Rhino is the only unit holding an objective that decides whether I get 10 or 15 VP next command phase then damn straight I'm going to pop smoke. It's situational, but not a bad stratagem by any means. Most importantly you don't lose out on shooting say with a Predator or Repulsor just for popping smoke.
Also anecdotally I had 7000 points of Space Wolves yet they released new Ragnar who can't fit into oldmarine transport so I kinda stepped through the rubicon and don't want to use oldmarines anymore outside of occasional Long Fangs or Wolf Guard Terminators. My Grey Hunters and Blood Claws look absolutely daft compared to Intercessor sweetness.
I know what you mean. it's honestly not that big a deal when you're standing a few feet away looking at "tokens on a table" but yeah when standing together it's real obvious. it's not even just the size differance but the proportions.
It was very nice of them to release the Assault Intercessors. So now I have Primaris Blood Claws to go with my Primaris Grey Hunters. If they would allow a Wolf Guard to attach to those two units I'd be happy. But I don't see it happening.
Justyn wrote: It was very nice of them to release the Assault Intercessors. So now I have Primaris Blood Claws to go with my Primaris Grey Hunters. If they would allow a Wolf Guard to attach to those two units I'd be happy. But I don't see it happening.
If you're running them as Grey Hunters / Blood Claws then you can just go to town converting a Wolf Guard Leader for the pack... Getting WGPL for Primaris squads seems unlikely like you said though.
Now I will say this was kind of a joke list, I was going for a 3rd edition old school feel. I willing gave up doctines for a single russ Tank. However, I won the game quite decisively. The russ did excellent all game, I spend 1cp a turn giving him the vostroyans special strat for +1 to hit making him quite efficient on his own. Bjorn as the warlord right now having to take the beastslayer trait was brutal. Twin las hitting and wounding any vehicle it looked at on 2's? Yeah, that will do work. And 2w bloodclaws with Lucas and a wolf priest giving the 2+ to charge out of deep strike worked amazing well.
I learned quite a bit from this match today. I am going to say this here, I am not sure marines need doctrines to be viable at this point. Maybe it will make a difference later when these other books drop, but right now..... not so much.
Reivers are absolute garbage so I'm not holding my breath. Slightly curious tho if they managed to write interesting rules for the new unit.
They almost had me excited then they said a "new kit" for Space Wolves. When I realized it's just a Reiver kit with SW upgrades I kinda facepalmed hard. Interestingly the Reivers are painted in a darker tone than the usual GW wolves. Wonder if that's just something specific for that unit or if GW is changing the color scheme gradually.
Now I will say this was kind of a joke list, I was going for a 3rd edition old school feel. I willing gave up doctines for a single russ Tank. However, I won the game quite decisively. The russ did excellent all game, I spend 1cp a turn giving him the vostroyans special strat for +1 to hit making him quite efficient on his own. Bjorn as the warlord right now having to take the beastslayer trait was brutal. Twin las hitting and wounding any vehicle it looked at on 2's? Yeah, that will do work. And 2w bloodclaws with Lucas and a wolf priest giving the 2+ to charge out of deep strike worked amazing well.
I learned quite a bit from this match today. I am going to say this here, I am not sure marines need doctrines to be viable at this point. Maybe it will make a difference later when these other books drop, but right now..... not so much.
I could see a close combat focused army wanting the doctrines and super doc. I was thinking about using the Bloodclaw + priest combo but throwing in a Wulfen dreadnought, all in a stormraven. Points heavy and 5cp to deep strike but i'm more then willing, just waiting on the SW supplement before getting a stormraven incase something changes.
lindsay40k wrote: I mean, it said they’re a UU called the Hounds of Morkai, with anti psyker runic protection. 5+ feel no mortal wounds, ignore LOS against Psykers?
Automatically Appended Next Post: Look Out Sir and Line Of Sight having the same acronym is somewhat confusing
I doubt they'll ignore look out sir, these are, after all, melee troops.
a 5+++ vs mortal wounds feels about right, maybe combined with a re-roll wound rolls vs psykers?
Saga's are coming back. They previewed the Wolfkin trait: Shock Assault is 1d3 for the character and always in effect, if he kills any model in melee he grants an aura of Shock Assault is always active to core units within 6'.
The relic axe is a basic power axe that grants an additional 1d6 attacks with that weapon. Still damage 1, so I'd prefer the Teeth of Terra myself. However, the ability to upgrade a power weapon (including a pair of Lightning Claws!) to Frost for a Special Issue wargear slot is amazing. It grants the weapon (or both lightning claws) +1 Str and +1 Damage. That's almost an auto-take for me.
Hounds of Morkai are actually looking pretty good, if you know you're fighting psykers. If not, they are back to being meh. +1 to Hit and +1 Damage for all attacks vs psykers, ignore look-out-sir vs psyckers, can't be the target of psychic spells unless they are the closest, ignore psychic mortal wounds on a 4+, and give a penalty to cast in an aura that gets stronger the closer the hounds unit is to the psyker.
Overall, a promising preview. I'm excited for the codex.
"On the topic of the sons of Russ, the Space Wolves are no longer the only ones! That’s right, the genius of Belisarius Cawl has seen the creation of a number of successor Chapters who bear the gene-seed of Leman Russ."
I do not mind. Just love that cawl does everything. Soon we have female SW. I am exited.
Unless the new unit is super exspensive it can be a very flexible slot. If they have psykers good luck deploying easy.
Our vehicles get the +1 to hit on the charge now. Rhinos are gonna come and give you some t3 str 7 ap-1 tag love lol
A single squad of hounds of morkai are going to be something I seriously suggest anyone without an issue with primaris take. In an all comers list just the fact that you have a small squad that can do what they can do would be good enough to make people consider psycic. And even if your opponent doesn't take psycic units they still have some use.
That's been known since the beginning of 8th that there are now Space Wolves successors. Rules to support them just weren't there.
As for the Hounds of Morkai, I'm really not sure about them. With pistols, they're not particularly scary to psykers even with the sniper property, and literally anything in your army can do as good or better a job as them in melee against psykers.
Maybe if they had the boltcarbine option, but 5 D2 pistol shots isn't going to kill most psykers, and if they have no psykers they're even crappier than reviers.
A single squad of hounds of morkai are going to be something I seriously suggest anyone without an issue with primaris take. In an all comers list just the fact that you have a small squad that can do what they can do would be good enough to make people consider psycic. And even if your opponent doesn't take psycic units they still have some use.
As for the Hounds of Morkai, I'm really not sure about them. With pistols, they're not particularly scary to psykers even with the sniper property, and literally anything in your army can do as good or better a job as them in melee against psykers.
Maybe if they had the boltcarbine option, but 5 D2 pistol shots isn't going to kill most psykers, and if they have no psykers they're even crappier than reviers.
I'm going to side with ILK here. They are still just Reivers. They might kill a minor caster. But I'd rather just take a second or third relic as the WTT if I don't have a Rune Priest. This is clearly a bid to foist off poor selling models on those dumb SW players.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Oh and the Wolf Priest didn't need the huge nerf.
Inquisitor Lord Katherine wrote: That's been known since the beginning of 8th that there are now Space Wolves successors. Rules to support them just weren't there.
As for the Hounds of Morkai, I'm really not sure about them. With pistols, they're not particularly scary to psykers even with the sniper property, and literally anything in your army can do as good or better a job as them in melee against psykers.
Maybe if they had the boltcarbine option, but 5 D2 pistol shots isn't going to kill most psykers, and if they have no psykers they're even crappier than reviers.
If you've got a regular opponent who likes to rush a psyekr into close combat and hammer you with spells (a 1k sons player with demon princes or something) it might be worth packing a squad of these, and I might snag some just for collections sake, but yeah.... these guys are gonna be pretty niche.
BTW, am I missing something or can our WGBLs no longer take a storm shield?!
Since they are just an LT, and LT's don't have that option, yes it looks that way. Thunderwolf LT's still can however. And of course Arjak still has a 3++. Its possible in the supplement they will give WGBL's back their SS, but its also possible they won't.
BTW, am I missing something or can our WGBLs no longer take a storm shield?!
Since they are just an LT, and LT's don't have that option, yes it looks that way. Thunderwolf LT's still can however. And of course Arjak still has a 3++. Its possible in the supplement they will give WGBL's back their SS, but its also possible they won't.
There are some odd point descrepensies for our wolf guards termiators and long fang packeaders.
The cost of assault cannons is more exspensive for the terminator squad, and the storm shield is more exspesive for the long fang squad.
Also, I spent a lot of time comming up with a cool armylist. This is what I am going to build going into the SW codex. Hope not to many points change aroud when the codex comes. I started with things that are cool and unique. And then trying to tailor it to be more competetive after that. I am not so happy about the drop pods. (140 points is a lott!) But I think the list is good.
140 points for a droppods not that bad considering the buffs to flamers and multi melta's mean that drop podded units with those weapons are going to be pretty nuts.
Mostly Assault Intercessors with the occasional pack of Intercessors. I have thought of using Infiltrators. But if your opponent isn't actively using reserves they are over costed.
I'd be interested to see if Wulfen are still restricted from transports like the Rhino. I believe that originally this was written into the datasheet for the transports themselves? If so, and if we're using the Space Marine codex, its likely that that restriction was removed. If it was written somewhere else in the new codex I'd certainly be appreciative for someone finding it and pointing it out.
bmsattler wrote: I'd be interested to see if Wulfen are still restricted from transports like the Rhino. I believe that originally this was written into the datasheet for the transports themselves? If so, and if we're using the Space Marine codex, its likely that that restriction was removed. If it was written somewhere else in the new codex I'd certainly be appreciative for someone finding it and pointing it out.
pg 188 - Rhino datasheet states they cannot be carried. Same with Razorback and Drop Pod
TWC lost their 2d strata too, but gained Pack Hunters, Bestial Nature, keen senses, and Saga of the Hunter gives them a buff too. Thane of the Retinue could be used to give the Sargent Frost weapons.
bmsattler wrote: I'm honestly more sad that we seem to have lost the Wolf and the Lion, and the 'promote the last survivor' strategem. Those were awesome.
those have been moved into crusade rules which... honestly makes a lot of sense
I'm going to tweak my TWC loadouts a bit, so what would you say is the best TAC loadout for them? I'm thinking Lightning Claw and SS for normal guys and Powerfist (or TH?) and SS for the leader.
For the TW Lord I'm thinking double Lightning Claws and an upgrade to Frost Weapons.
Weazel wrote: I'm going to tweak my TWC loadouts a bit, so what would you say is the best TAC loadout for them? I'm thinking Lightning Claw and SS for normal guys and Powerfist (or TH?) and SS for the leader.
For the TW Lord I'm thinking double Lightning Claws and an upgrade to Frost Weapons.
Thoughts?
Full LC and SS for regular TWC squad (in my experience I mostly need them to clear 30 man blobs), and multidamage S5+ weapon for the Lord so either a frost sword, frost claws or relic Wyrmsplitter for him. Frost claws will probably be my go-to as well because +1A (Lord doesn't need the SS) and re-rolling wound is better than having higher S.
Supossebly there is a stratagem to give a relic to a common wolf guard captain. Depending on the wording I think we will see some number of double frost lightning claw. +2 attacks, S+1, re-roll wounds sounds good. 5+ with reroll is very close to 4+ vs T8, and better elsewhere. There could be other weapons as well. Although this sounds like something terninators would like as well. I might have missunderstood the stratagem though.
But outside of that powerfist and claws with shields sounds good. If you have a big enough unit you can drop claw on one or two to get cheaper chainswords. They also have the ekstra attack, Ap1 and are free.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Oh man. I am psyked for this new codex!
We have tons of ways to force the opponent to fight last. Armour of russ, whirldwind with stratagem and justicar are all good to get some CC action!
Jimbobbyish wrote: Are you guys taking a smash captain?
I'm thinking Wolf Lord on TWC, TH/SS, Re-roll charges warlord trait, Saga of the Hunter, Pelt of the Balewolf
I'm split between the Hunter and Bear, and Balewolf is to good to pass up.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Then again Dual lightning claws + frost weapon + Beastslayer + Wolfkin is crazy against monsters and Vehicles
I think it depends a bit.
It would seem to me the Pelf of the Balewolf is better on a cheap Wolf Guard Battle Leader on T5 (Bike? or Wolf) with a good weapon. If they are regular units then T5 -1 to damage means they only damage you on 6. But this is not true when you meet S8, so you can keep away from that.
A fighty lord in my eyes would benefit a whole lott from relic frost claws or the armour of russ. After you kill something and they charge your lord they will fight last with the armour of russ that will make him a beast. And the frost claws are full blenders on +2 attacks +1 S and re-rolling wound.
So what's the point of Wolf Guard keyword now that Arjac doesn't do anything and we lost Vicious Executioners stratagem? Seems to me that even Logan doesn't have any Wolf Guard interaction anymore... Wonder if there's something in the codex that makes use of it?
Weazel wrote: So what's the point of Wolf Guard keyword now that Arjac doesn't do anything and we lost Vicious Executioners stratagem? Seems to me that even Logan doesn't have any Wolf Guard interaction anymore... Wonder if there's something in the codex that makes use of it?
There is at least this in the crusade section. Perhaps elsewhere as well? "Show them how we Fight – As Wolf Guard models from your army destroy units, nearby Blood Claws recieve experience points
Also, if you have not seen here is a pretty good write up on most things in the new index.
Warrior Born + Armor of Russ = fight first no matter what
Resolve of the Bear + Pelt of the Balewolf = very tanky
The Imperium’s Sword + Hunter = near guaranteed charges very good on wolf lord on twc
I also had been thinking about a March of the Ancients, Bjorn, Techpriest, 2-3 Vendreads with axe/shield and murderfang. I don't have the book on me but would Aura of Majesty work with the master of the forge's dreadnought buff, and does Wisdom of the Ancients work with bjorn?
Automatically Appended Next Post: With Bjorn as a warlord with aura of Majesty you can re-roll hits and wounds of 1s with 1 cp at 9"
I might be wrong, but I do not think you need Bjorn to be your warlord for that?
Yeah. Stacking 2 warlord traits in a hero looks very fun.
Also, if you have a Master Craftet Axe, get it a frost master craftet axe and have the imperiums sword you have S8 without the -1 to hit. But most characters who have Master Crafted Axe probably hits on 2+ with +1 to hit already?
Niiai wrote: I might be wrong, but I do not think you need Bjorn to be your warlord for that?
Yeah. Stacking 2 warlord traits in a hero looks very fun.
Also, if you have a Master Craftet Axe, get it a frost master craftet axe and have the imperiums sword you have S8 without the -1 to hit. But most characters who have Master Crafted Axe probably hits on 2+ with +1 to hit already?
Its so Bjorn has a 9" bubble, but i realised you could just give him a warlord trait with the stratagem without being a warlord
So, has anyone else noticed they didn't put a limit on the saga strat? So if your non warlord non vehicle chr performs multiple "deeds" they can stack multiple "sagas" on them? That seems..... broken?
Azuza001 wrote: So, has anyone else noticed they didn't put a limit on the saga strat? So if your non warlord non vehicle chr performs multiple "deeds" they can stack multiple "sagas" on them? That seems..... broken?
So Warrior Born, he always fights first, even when being charged or when intervening into a charging unit? And if the opponent has a "always fights first" ability then defender goes first?
I don't have any reference, just the English wording. Both have rules that allow them to fight first and none of them has a rule that explicitly says it prevales to the other one, that's all we have unless thare's some FAQ that I missed.
I guess fight first trumps charging because datasheet rules always have priority to general core rules.
No, no, no. They alternate between the 'fight first' models. The most common source of fight first is that you have charged.
I edited my awnser as I have not updated my warlord trait evaluation for 9th edition. My GSC patriarch never took that trait. But in 9th edition the player whos turn it isnt is the one who starts.
'Starting with your opponent, alternate selecting units to
fight with.
When a unit fights, it piles in, then it makes close combat
attacks, then it consolidates.
If one player has no more units left to fight with, their
opponent then fights with their remaining units, one at
a time.
Once all units have fought, progress to the Morale phase
(pg 23).
Units that made a charge move this turn fight before all
other units.'
So there are 2 batches. First one is units that aleays fights first. Second are units that have not fought. You alternate activation until all units who fight first have fought before moving on to the rest.
There is also a secret 3rd batch. Rules that do not allow the opponent to activate. The regular marine codex has 2 of these: Wirldwind Stratagem and Justicar. SW have 2 more in Armour of Russ and psykick powers.
Niiai wrote: No, no, no. They alternate between the 'fight first' models. The most common source of fight first is that you have charged.
I edited my awnser as I have not updated my warlord trait evaluation for 9th edition. My GSC patriarch never took that trait. But in 9th edition the player whos turn it is is the one who starts.
'Starting with your opponent, alternate selecting units to
fight with.
When a unit fights, it piles in, then it makes close combat
attacks, then it consolidates.
If one player has no more units left to fight with, their
opponent then fights with their remaining units, one at
a time.
Once all units have fought, progress to the Morale phase
(pg 23).
Units that made a charge move this turn fight before all
other units.'
So there are 2 batches. First one is units that aleays fights first. Second are units that have not fought. You alternate activation until all units who fight first have fought before moving on to the rest.
There is also a secret 3rd batch. Rules that do not allow the opponent to activate. The regular marine codex has 2 of these: Wirldwind Stratagem and Justicar. SW have 2 more in Armour of Russ and psykick powers.
Sorry, but the player who's turn it *isn't* activates first, so if it's your opponent's turn, and they have units who have charged, and you have a unit that benefits from another source of Fights First, then you alternate activation in the first pool, starting with one of *your* units that has Fights First.
Also the Judiciar, Armour of Russ and other similar abilities, don't allow units to activate until all other units have, so they effectively fight last, but they still do activate.
Main rulebook, pg 361: “Some rules allow a unit from your army to always fight first in the Fight phase, even if they didn't make a charge move this turn. If the enemy has units that have charged, or that have similar rules, then alternate selecting units to fight with from amongst these units, starting with the player whose turn is taking place.”
Speaking as someone who usually fights against Space wolves, I’ve had several games where it’s been the death of me. It’s a hard counter to melee glass cannons, such as Berzerkers, and synergises well with Counter Charge. Definitively worth including in a Crusade army roster, if nothing else.
How is it good against berderkers? If berserkers gets the charge they fight first and kill the warlord, no? And if the warlord charges he fights first anyway? Very rarly do fights go on for more then one turn in my expetience.
Perhaps the heroic invervention means you can clip someone and then fight in two turns.
I don't think I would take Saga of the Warrior Born, at least over other warlord traits.
Effectively, it forces your enemy to fight first with whatever they lined up against your warlord, giving you an opportunity to pay 2CP to interrupt somewhere else.
There are currently 3 new start collecting boxes for SM/SW. The blood angel one, the SW one and the new SM christmas one. Are any of them good? I do not like the SW one. The BA looks solid enough. But the chtistmas one has 10 rievers in it. Do we really neer rievers?
Niiai wrote: There are currently 3 new start collecting boxes for SM/SW. The blood angel one, the SW one and the new SM christmas one. Are any of them good? I do not like the SW one. The BA looks solid enough. But the chtistmas one has 10 rievers in it. Do we really neer rievers?
Short answer: No. Long answer: Hell no! Reivers are crap on a stick. They don't do anything any Marine chapter really needs, or rather there are other things that do what Reivers do far better than Reivers do it.
I've used reivers in a lot of lists. They are cheap, and don't cost CP to deploy behind enemy lines. I use them to try and disrupt the back-lines, or work on secondary's. One or two five man squads are pretty cheap, and can be a versatile support unit. I really like the new strat they have to turn off ob-sec on nearby units.
Warrior Born + Armor of Russ = fight first no matter what
I don't know if this works that way. Always fight first is a binary thing, i'm not convinced it stacks with itself. You either always fight first or you don't. It's not like you have "+2 to always fight first" versus charge giving "+1 to always fight first." There is no more initiative, so i don't think this works.
Warrior Born doesn't stack with Armor of Russ, in that sense.
Always is an overstatement. Get charged by 2 (or more) units and you can only Armor of Russ one of them. After that the "fight first" from charging takes precedence over Warrior Born. Or more precisely, your opponent gets to fight with a unit that has charged before your Warrior Born kicks in.
But yeah you can "freeze" the most threatening target which obviously helps.
As far as I can tell the most obvius bonus from warrior born is when the aura kicks inn. BNw you and your units do not need t8 sit through all of the charges before you fight. But it is a very slim silver lining.
Of courde if you fight in two turns in a row with no new charges it is good. But that rarly happens imho.
Hi all wolves-mates. Just wanna discuss a tactical problem about the use of TWC in 9th edition.
We all know that the TWC, when kitted right and buffed, could be very good in melee as well as getting into melee in theory. However, their main limitation seems to be the big base they have and the keywords, restricting the area they get to access. So, they can be stopped by enemy forward screeens in "terrain bottle neck", with the smaller board edge impling higher terrain density, hence this blockage is more achievable in this edition. Furthermore, enemy can also choose to just hide behind ruins with a narrow corridor, forcing the charging TWC into a "single column formation", resulting only the front 2 models gets to make their attack instead of all 5 models in the unit.
So, this probably means that we have to deploy the TWC near the open ground, but this would usually mean they can easily be counter deployed making them only able to make a meaningful charge in the 2nd turn at best (i.e. they gonna suffer enemy firepower for 2 rounds, and probably be counter attacked hard before they smash their intented targets).
What would likely be the best way we mitigate this problem? Many thanks.
First if you give thunder wolves shields, they are T5, 4 Wounds 3+/4++ with +1 to the save. This can be further increases with a Libarian with jump pack making them count as being in cover (tepestus displine) and you can use a stratagem to make them -1 to hit. I think this is the best you can do to prevent shots comming at them.
The rest is target sauration. You should try to build you list so it is a loose loose situation for the opponent. If there are no threats for them turn 1, their ranged weapons will target the thunder wolf.
If you present them with flyers/long fangs/long ranged tanks they will have to choose on what to shoot. You can also limit the opponents movement with that. The only thing faster then a thunderwolf is a 48" ranged heavy weapon.
You can also focus more on turn 2. Drive up with rhinoes, other bikes and the opponent killing some thunder wolves means some stil make it it.
A drop pod turn 1 or 2 can also help with this. If you wanne play objectives (or just threaten turn one) you can have a lot of infiltraitors help them out.
If you do not use a lot of fast attack slots have units or 3 thunderwolfs instead of 5. This will make sure a bottleneck is less bad. You can also escort a smash captain on a wolf and put the cpatain in the chocke point and go round with your thunder wolf. A Wolf Guard Battle Leader with shield and teeth of terra on a thunderwolf is 105 points and 1 CP and fairly killy. 6 attacks + wolf bites. If they hide behind ruins perhaps old smash captains on jump packs can do the job.
I have no good awnsers, but certanly some advice. Make sure your entier army does not arive piecemeal, 1 unit turn 2 and the rest turn 3 for instance. Shoot away chaff with long fangs hevay bolters, bikes or Inceptors, or the drop pod grey hunters. (Blood Claws with chaplain for a 7" charge can also work in a drop pod.)
Any1 have tried old school droppod armylist already ?
I’ve been thinking about
30 bloodclaws in 3 dropods
6 long fangs + wgpl with stormshield and combimelta
(5x multimelta, cherub)
Chaplain
Captain
Librarian
You put all of your heroes into long fang droppod, and just go for this t1 alfa strike.
On avarage you will connect all of your 7” charges.
10 bloodclaws is 41 atacks in charge with all of the buffs you can get on them it seems like a pretty nasty thing.
And you have 3 squads of those.
It’s around 1.3k points which means you still have a healthy 700 points to leave something behind on the backfield objectives or prepare second wave attack with terminators/twc or sth else. Thoughts ?
I'd never bring more than a single drop pod honestly, the one with melta guys (put the characters somewhere else) eventually: it's not a 35ppm model anymore that can be spammed with great results. Rhinos are far better as they are much useful even after deploying their cargo. Razorbacks are effective gunboats.
That was exacly what I thought, they are too expensive for just delivering troops, with rhinos you can do a lot of cool stuff.
(Los blocking, blocking the way, charging a shooty unit to prevent them from shooting for a 1 turn etc.)
They also provide a protection from anti infantry shooting , untill they get destroyed.
What do you think about heavy tanks and flyer trasporters ?
Im thinking about land raider crusader with 3x5 bloodclaws and chaplain with +2 charge. ( you can swap one bloodclaws unit for a 5man wulfen as they provide charge rerolls and are actually quite deadly in combat if you can deliver them, they didnt loose too much dmg output, just the survivability, with frost axes they can hit on 2+, wound most things on 2+, canceling armor save and 2 dmg, exploding hit on 6s. Sounds good to me).
Same configuration with Stormwolf
Storm raven with 2x5 bloodclaws chaplain and librarian (i wish i could call them runepriests), and wulfen drednought with axe and shield.
Both crusader and stormraven provide a decent amount of dakka dakka, and they also deliver your stuff where you want them too, after they drop your units they are still big threat that has to be destroyed or will do a lot of dmg.
My only concern, is that they cost a lot of points and are not really that hard to kill. As the metagame pushes towards more AT im scared they gonna die turn 1. What are your expieriences with them in this edition ?
Stormwolf or gunship are way to expensive at the moment, 340-370 points for T7 14W is really massive. I replaced my trusted flyer with a Land Raider Crusader which is "just" 290 points with 40 anti infantry shots. 15 Blood Claws and a wolf priest in them.
I'm just leaning towards 10 (pack leader and Wolf Guard pack leader in it) + 5 Blood Claws instead of 3x5. Same amount of points and some vulnerability to blasts but the larger squad will have a Wolf Guard to mitigate the Headstrong issue and could benefit from statagems that buff the melee abilities, wasted on 5 man squads.
I have to admit that my meta is extremely biased though. Here the primary concern is to obliterate tons of chaff off objectives, not to 1-shot knights and I also don't play imperium vs imperium. Ever. Which means a Land Raider can actually soak a lot of shots and becomes much more reliable, it's basically against imperium factions that dies too easily.
Jabberscythe wrote: That was exacly what I thought, they are too expensive for just delivering troops, with rhinos you can do a lot of cool stuff.
(Los blocking, blocking the way, charging a shooty unit to prevent them from shooting for a 1 turn etc.)
They also provide a protection from anti infantry shooting , untill they get destroyed.
What do you think about heavy tanks and flyer trasporters ?
Im thinking about land raider crusader with 3x5 bloodclaws and chaplain with +2 charge. ( you can swap one bloodclaws unit for a 5man wulfen as they provide charge rerolls and are actually quite deadly in combat if you can deliver them, they didnt loose too much dmg output, just the survivability, with frost axes they can hit on 2+, wound most things on 2+, canceling armor save and 2 dmg, exploding hit on 6s. Sounds good to me).
Same configuration with Stormwolf
Storm raven with 2x5 bloodclaws chaplain and librarian (i wish i could call them runepriests), and wulfen drednought with axe and shield.
Both crusader and stormraven provide a decent amount of dakka dakka, and they also deliver your stuff where you want them too, after they drop your units they are still big threat that has to be destroyed or will do a lot of dmg.
My only concern, is that they cost a lot of points and are not really that hard to kill. As the metagame pushes towards more AT im scared they gonna die turn 1. What are your expieriences with them in this edition ?
In a meta of Eradicators, Slaanesh Obliterators, and Crown Cars, any expensive vehicles not having an inv save is pretty much just a point sink. They will die very quick without doing much of their job.
Jabberscythe wrote: That was exacly what I thought, they are too expensive for just delivering troops, with rhinos you can do a lot of cool stuff.
(Los blocking, blocking the way, charging a shooty unit to prevent them from shooting for a 1 turn etc.)
They also provide a protection from anti infantry shooting , untill they get destroyed.
What do you think about heavy tanks and flyer trasporters ?
Im thinking about land raider crusader with 3x5 bloodclaws and chaplain with +2 charge. ( you can swap one bloodclaws unit for a 5man wulfen as they provide charge rerolls and are actually quite deadly in combat if you can deliver them, they didnt loose too much dmg output, just the survivability, with frost axes they can hit on 2+, wound most things on 2+, canceling armor save and 2 dmg, exploding hit on 6s. Sounds good to me).
Same configuration with Stormwolf
Storm raven with 2x5 bloodclaws chaplain and librarian (i wish i could call them runepriests), and wulfen drednought with axe and shield.
Both crusader and stormraven provide a decent amount of dakka dakka, and they also deliver your stuff where you want them too, after they drop your units they are still big threat that has to be destroyed or will do a lot of dmg.
My only concern, is that they cost a lot of points and are not really that hard to kill. As the metagame pushes towards more AT im scared they gonna die turn 1. What are your expieriences with them in this edition ?
In a meta of Eradicators, Slaanesh Obliterators, and Crown Cars, any expensive vehicles not having an inv save is pretty much just a point sink. They will die very quick without doing much of their job.
I think the storm raven is the better option, just trade 2x bloodclaws for Wolfguard with PF/SSTH on the sarg. On the drop thats 6 targets, 5 of which could make a successful charge at 7" with rerolls. charge whatever would shoot you, use the stormraven to shoot whatever would shoot you, sure there is bubble wrapping but then that's less for your opponent to put on objectives. Granted this depends on what you place on the field the first turn and if it will get shot off before 2nd turn. But this is all in a vacuum.
Jabberscythe wrote: Any1 have tried old school droppod armylist already ?
I’ve been thinking about
30 bloodclaws in 3 dropods
6 long fangs + wgpl with stormshield and combimelta
(5x multimelta, cherub)
Chaplain
Captain
Librarian
You put all of your heroes into long fang droppod, and just go for this t1 alfa strike.
On avarage you will connect all of your 7” charges.
10 bloodclaws is 41 atacks in charge with all of the buffs you can get on them it seems like a pretty nasty thing.
And you have 3 squads of those.
It’s around 1.3k points which means you still have a healthy 700 points to leave something behind on the backfield objectives or prepare second wave attack with terminators/twc or sth else. Thoughts ?
You know your Chaplain uses Litanies at the start of the battle round, yeah? You can’t arrive by DP and then activate +2” charges aura on the same turn, nor say the litany whilst you’re waiting to arrive on the battlefield. Only way to use that trick in a T1 waaagh list is to take a bike or jump pack and very cleverly conga line the arrivals within earshot.
If you upgrade your chaplain to a master of sanctity with the wise orator warlord trait (which you probably should do for a list banking on chappy stuff) then you can use Commanding Oratory to automatically activate a litany at the beginning of ANY phase for 1 CP.
astro_nomicon wrote: If you upgrade your chaplain to a master of sanctity with the wise orator warlord trait (which you probably should do for a list banking on chappy stuff) then you can use Commanding Oratory to automatically activate a litany at the beginning of ANY phase for 1 CP.
Actually you do not even need that. You can just use the stratagem for 2 CP without the discount.
I'm thinking about a standard Master of Sanctity vs Ulrik the Slayer, who's the best?
Both cost the same amount of points (105/115 vs 110), Ulrik has a better profile but a generic priest can recite litanies on 2s thanks to the trait without burning CPs. If you need the priest mostly for the buffs, the fact that a generic model is more reliable than Ulrik can make some difference.
However my take is to bring just a cheap 80ppm generic Wolf Priest as I typically just need 1 litany per turn, 3+ is reliable enough, and other than the generic one there's only the Canticle of Hate which is really powerful.
By the way what's the consensus about the Master of Sanctity upgrade real points cost? The SM codex has two different values, 25 at page 98, and 35 at the final recap.
Page 202 – Points Values, Chapter Command.
Change these points values to read:
‘Chapter Ancient……+20pts
Champion……+15pts
Chapter Master……+40ts
Chief Apothecary……+15pts
Chief Librarian……+25pts
Master of Sanctity……+25pts
Master of the Forge……+20pts’
Designer’s Note: These values match the ones found in the
Chapter Command rules on page 98.
For those who want to know these things: if you budget 1CP to Reroll failed charges that don’t have a 1, Grey Hunters have a 51% chance of making a 9” charge, and being able to Reroll snake eyes and 1-4/5/6 for free means that CP is not spent 47% of the time. Not terrible for a Chainsword-wielding ObSec unit that brings five plasma shots to an outflank.
Blackie wrote: Stormwolf or gunship are way to expensive at the moment, 340-370 points for T7 14W is really massive. I replaced my trusted flyer with a Land Raider Crusader which is "just" 290 points with 40 anti infantry shots. 15 Blood Claws and a wolf priest in them.
I'm just leaning towards 10 (pack leader and Wolf Guard pack leader in it) + 5 Blood Claws instead of 3x5. Same amount of points and some vulnerability to blasts but the larger squad will have a Wolf Guard to mitigate the Headstrong issue and could benefit from statagems that buff the melee abilities, wasted on 5 man squads.
I have to admit that my meta is extremely biased though. Here the primary concern is to obliterate tons of chaff off objectives, not to 1-shot knights and I also don't play imperium vs imperium. Ever. Which means a Land Raider can actually soak a lot of shots and becomes much more reliable, it's basically against imperium factions that dies too easily.
The basic loadout with skyhammer missiles for the Stormwolf and Stormfang is 300pts - I agree that it's overpriced and a big target, but you can squeeze in the basic loadout for a similar cost to a LR.
True But a LR Crusader at 290 points has 40 anti infantry shots in rapid fire range, which are something for the role of clearing infantries.
Basic Stormwolf doesn't have enough punch to justify 300 points. And a LR is typically more resilient than a flyer.
It's basically down on what you need: I play only firstborn marines and the 40 shots from a Crusader plus the 54-60 from the 3 razorbacks is something I absolutely need in my meta, and with the models I have available. I can found more efficient anti tank platforms than a flyer instead.
I used to play both a Crusader and a Stormfang Gunship in 8th but while the former has basically kept the same points cost, the latter got a massive 100+ points price hike, and I can't justify it.
Blackie wrote: True But a LR Crusader at 290 points has 40 anti infantry shots in rapid fire range, which are something for the role of clearing infantries.
Basic Stormwolf doesn't have enough punch to justify 300 points. And a LR is typically more resilient than a flyer.
It's basically down on what you need: I play only firstborn marines and the 40 shots from a Crusader plus the 54-60 from the 3 razorbacks is something I absolutely need in my meta, and with the models I have available. I can found more efficient anti tank platforms than a flyer instead.
I used to play both a Crusader and a Stormfang Gunship in 8th but while the former has basically kept the same points cost, the latter got a massive 100+ points price hike, and I can't justify it.
That's totally fair. I painted up a Stormwolf as part of my lockdown Primaris army as a transport for my wulfen and now I'm struggling to justify either! I feel like 240-250pts for the base version would be more appropriate in the current climate.
Blackie wrote: True But a LR Crusader at 290 points has 40 anti infantry shots in rapid fire range, which are something for the role of clearing infantries.
Basic Stormwolf doesn't have enough punch to justify 300 points. And a LR is typically more resilient than a flyer.
It's basically down on what you need: I play only firstborn marines and the 40 shots from a Crusader plus the 54-60 from the 3 razorbacks is something I absolutely need in my meta, and with the models I have available. I can found more efficient anti tank platforms than a flyer instead.
I used to play both a Crusader and a Stormfang Gunship in 8th but while the former has basically kept the same points cost, the latter got a massive 100+ points price hike, and I can't justify it.
I think the problem with LRC is that it easily get stuck by terrains given the smaller board in 9th. So you are not going anywhere, unless you are playing with "less than average terrain pieces". But anyway, neither the two are good, maybe not even qualify as decent. Because they both melt in the face of Eradicators, Harlequin Clown car fusion pistol spam and Skyweaver Jetbike spam.
Blackie wrote: True But a LR Crusader at 290 points has 40 anti infantry shots in rapid fire range, which are something for the role of clearing infantries.
Basic Stormwolf doesn't have enough punch to justify 300 points. And a LR is typically more resilient than a flyer.
It's basically down on what you need: I play only firstborn marines and the 40 shots from a Crusader plus the 54-60 from the 3 razorbacks is something I absolutely need in my meta, and with the models I have available. I can found more efficient anti tank platforms than a flyer instead.
I used to play both a Crusader and a Stormfang Gunship in 8th but while the former has basically kept the same points cost, the latter got a massive 100+ points price hike, and I can't justify it.
I think the problem with LRC is that it easily get stuck by terrains given the smaller board in 9th. So you are not going anywhere, unless you are playing with "less than average terrain pieces". But anyway, neither the two are good, maybe not even qualify as decent. Because they both melt in the face of Eradicators, Harlequin Clown car fusion pistol spam and Skyweaver Jetbike spam.
Totally right. LR has problems with terrain but in its defense smaller boards means that it just need a single turn of movement at most to get in position. About its nemesis, I personally don't play marines vs any other imperium faction, which is a huge bonus for LRs as most of the overpowered anti tank in the game belongs to imperium. Harlequins are also nasty for them, but very uncommon here. My SW typically clash against chaos (of thousand flavours), tyranids, orks, eldar, drukhari, tau and necrons.
My mileage with a LR is totally biased, so although I don't really struggle playing firstborn SW with a LR I get why people think it's trash. And I kinda need its firepower as I don't own any primaris with infinite S4 shots (Aggressors, Intercessors, etc...).
That's totally fair. I painted up a Stormwolf as part of my lockdown Primaris army as a transport for my wulfen and now I'm struggling to justify either! I feel like 240-250pts for the base version would be more appropriate in the current climate.
Yeah, sadly I'm currently shelving both the flyer and Wulfen too.
I am going to my first tournament ever. Its gonna be a 12 person 2k tourney and I will bring my Wolves. Its in 4 weeks, so I have a bit of time to adjust and tweak here and there. As I only had 2 or 3 games due to Corona so far, I ask for your help, if you see little stuff to optimize or something, that worked well for you.
My List:
Ragnar
Primaris Chaplain on Bike (MoS, Hunter, Imperiums Sword, Benediction of Fury, Extortion of Rage, Mantra of Strength)
Librarian with Jump Pack (Chief Librarian, Plasma Pistol, Storm Caller, Tempests Wrath)
Outrider
TWC (Sergeant with Hammer+Shield, 3x Chainsword+Shield)
Eradicator
Impulsor + Dome
I am completely unsure about my troops. I have in general some stuff I could change. I have another squad of Incursors and I have Assault and normal Intercessors. I also have Wolf Guard Termis with Hammer and Shield, Primaris Librarian, Chaplain with Jump Pack.
I am going to my first tournament ever. Its gonna be a 12 person 2k tourney and I will bring my Wolves. Its in 4 weeks, so I have a bit of time to adjust and tweak here and there. As I only had 2 or 3 games due to Corona so far, I ask for your help, if you see little stuff to optimize or something, that worked well for you.
My List:
Ragnar
Primaris Chaplain on Bike (MoS, Hunter, Imperiums Sword, Benediction of Fury, Extortion of Rage, Mantra of Strength)
Librarian with Jump Pack (Chief Librarian, Plasma Pistol, Storm Caller, Tempests Wrath)
Outrider
TWC (Sergeant with Hammer+Shield, 3x Chainsword+Shield)
Eradicator
Impulsor + Dome
I am completely unsure about my troops. I have in general some stuff I could change. I have another squad of Incursors and I have Assault and normal Intercessors. I also have Wolf Guard Termis with Hammer and Shield, Primaris Librarian, Chaplain with Jump Pack.
What are your opinions on the list?
Your HQ selection is fine, I think; I wouldn't switch out any of those. Troops-wise, I think I'd switch out the Incursors in the list for some Assault Intercessors, preferably with a Power Fist on the Sarge. Run those up the board in the Impulsor along with Ragnar. On the Wolf Guard squad, why the Storm Bolter on one guy? I'd make it a Lightning Claw like all the others. Not sure if the Invictor is very good anymore; it doesn't have CORE and so can't benefit from any buffs, although the ability to infiltrate a vehicle with good weapons close to the enemy on turn 1 makes it a threat that has to be answered. Just keep in mind that it will die quickly if you go second unless you have a really good place on the board to hide it. TH/SS Termies are decent, but I'm not sure what you'd cut to make room for them in this list.
I am going to my first tournament ever. Its gonna be a 12 person 2k tourney and I will bring my Wolves. Its in 4 weeks, so I have a bit of time to adjust and tweak here and there. As I only had 2 or 3 games due to Corona so far, I ask for your help, if you see little stuff to optimize or something, that worked well for you.
My List:
Ragnar
Primaris Chaplain on Bike (MoS, Hunter, Imperiums Sword, Benediction of Fury, Extortion of Rage, Mantra of Strength)
Librarian with Jump Pack (Chief Librarian, Plasma Pistol, Storm Caller, Tempests Wrath)
Outrider
TWC (Sergeant with Hammer+Shield, 3x Chainsword+Shield)
Eradicator
Impulsor + Dome
I am completely unsure about my troops. I have in general some stuff I could change. I have another squad of Incursors and I have Assault and normal Intercessors. I also have Wolf Guard Termis with Hammer and Shield, Primaris Librarian, Chaplain with Jump Pack.
What are your opinions on the list?
Your HQ selection is fine, I think; I wouldn't switch out any of those. Troops-wise, I think I'd switch out the Incursors in the list for some Assault Intercessors, preferably with a Power Fist on the Sarge. Run those up the board in the Impulsor along with Ragnar. On the Wolf Guard squad, why the Storm Bolter on one guy? I'd make it a Lightning Claw like all the others. Not sure if the Invictor is very good anymore; it doesn't have CORE and so can't benefit from any buffs, although the ability to infiltrate a vehicle with good weapons close to the enemy on turn 1 makes it a threat that has to be answered. Just keep in mind that it will die quickly if you go second unless you have a really good place on the board to hide it. TH/SS Termies are decent, but I'm not sure what you'd cut to make room for them in this list.
Thanks. Yeah, I figured the invictor is not the strongest choice. This was more about target saturation. The first draft only had the Impulsor, then I added the redemptor and I have the invictor painted anyway, so I figured I bring him instead of the Wolf Guard termies, so he can take some anti tank fire off the impulsor and the redemptor.
The storm bolter on the one guy...yeah I planned to add 2 or 3 with bolters, in case they wont make the charge but ran out of points. Might as well drop the bolter.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Ah, Assault Intercessors can't go with Ragnar, as the Bladeguard are in the Impulsor already
List looks good to me buddy, Assault Intercessors can be a useful unit to hold an objective with actually and I have used them for that in the past, especially mid board. Although they don't have the ranged damage normal intercessors do if they are in cover they get a 2up save and are tough to shift with shooting, plus no one really wants to charge them Good luck in the tourney brother, may Russ guide your arm !
I am going to my first tournament ever. Its gonna be a 12 person 2k tourney and I will bring my Wolves. Its in 4 weeks, so I have a bit of time to adjust and tweak here and there. As I only had 2 or 3 games due to Corona so far, I ask for your help, if you see little stuff to optimize or something, that worked well for you.
My List:
Ragnar
Primaris Chaplain on Bike (MoS, Hunter, Imperiums Sword, Benediction of Fury, Extortion of Rage, Mantra of Strength)
Librarian with Jump Pack (Chief Librarian, Plasma Pistol, Storm Caller, Tempests Wrath)
Outrider
TWC (Sergeant with Hammer+Shield, 3x Chainsword+Shield)
Eradicator
Impulsor + Dome
I am completely unsure about my troops. I have in general some stuff I could change. I have another squad of Incursors and I have Assault and normal Intercessors. I also have Wolf Guard Termis with Hammer and Shield, Primaris Librarian, Chaplain with Jump Pack.
I asked on the SM list, but got no responce. Perhaps the people here are more alive.
How unique are the space wolf small units? I am thinking 1 man cyberwolf units for 15 points and the 5 squad fenrisian wolves for 35 points. Both are in fast attacks.
There are some benefits of small units. Screening and holding objectives. Are those good in currenth 9th edition? Whenever I play SW I always flood my fast attack slots. But they seem good. Should I be taking them more?
In my mind they remind me a bit of 8th edition ork boys.
The only reason I haven't flooded my lists with Cyberwolves is the monetary cost of the models. Heck, even proxies cost a lot!
As far as usefulness though: Ive heard nothing but good things. Mind you, I've never actually run them so I'm going off second hand info, but the amount of utility you can get from a 15pt/35pt unit is a real steal.
I have used small units of fenrisian wolves which have been great and have heard nothing but good things about cyberwolves as cheap fast units which can be easily hidden and will often be ignored in favour of more obviously dangerous units. My next space wolf project will be a pair of them in fact
Well they have 2A at S4 AP-1 with WS3+, but also T4 1W 6+ and bad Ld which makes them very fragile.
They're cheap and fast but they don't do much damage, that's not their role. The max unit of 15 wolves (105 points), assuming it gets the charge at full strenght and strikes first, will kill 7 orks (63 points) or 5 MEQs (90 points). Being extremely fragile you can't count on them for being melee specialists, any damage they manage to do is a bonus.
Ork boys where 3 attack (4 if a big group) T4, 6+ wound, same points. You trade one attack for 5+ movement pluss run and charge. They seem quite comparable. And green tide was good. 8th edition ork codex that is.
I understand that the loss of one attack is bad. But getting the ability to get of a charge from further away should weight up for that. Orks dies to a stiff Breese. But who charges as long as some make it into melee.
But I want to know if anybody has tried this before starting putting such a unit together.
I used 3 min squads of wolves and 2 lone cyber wolves in 8th regularly (haven't played 9th yet). The cyber wolves are awesome for the price and small footprint. I used the squads of wolves purely as meat shields, They work well at absorbing mortal wounds from smite and other spells for the first round.
Automatically Appended Next Post: The wolves work best if you use them just to draw fire/smite away from your vanguard and Thunderwolves.
Niiai wrote: Ork boys where 3 attack (4 if a big group) T4, 6+ wound, same points. You trade one attack for 5+ movement pluss run and charge. They seem quite comparable. And green tide was good. 8th edition ork codex that is.
I understand that the loss of one attack is bad. But getting the ability to get of a charge from further away should weight up for that. Orks dies to a stiff Breese. But who charges as long as some make it into melee.
But I want to know if anybody has tried this before starting putting such a unit together.
Green tide was good because boyz got a ton of buffs by auras, klan traits, psychic powers and stratagems in 8th, including the full respawn of 30 man squads. Now that all those combos have been removed they're asbolute trash, even with T5, in terms of damage output.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Jimbobbyish wrote: I used 3 min squads of wolves and 2 lone cyber wolves in 8th regularly (haven't played 9th yet). The cyber wolves are awesome for the price and small footprint. I used the squads of wolves purely as meat shields, They work well at absorbing mortal wounds from smite and other spells for the first round.
Automatically Appended Next Post: The wolves work best if you use them just to draw fire/smite away from your vanguard and Thunderwolves.
That's their role. They can also mess enemy deepstrikers or go after enemies sitting on objectives that don't have obj sec or are pure shooting infantry units.
While I do not have the wording in front of me, it seemed a warlord trait made the shooting attack hit and woud on 2 when shooting at non vehicle and non monsters. If it works like that, it can be very good on a combi flamer.
Edit: I got the white drawrf and looked at the rules for Wolfspears. Yeah, they are really sweet. Not overly strong, but I really liked the stratagems, warord traits and relics. The fact that they look you in on the stealth and +1 to charge traits shoud hold them back from beeing over powered. But I liked them. A fun alternative to running wolves.
For your Invictor Tactical Warsuits, do you run the super-flamer or the autocannon? I'm planning on trying out a tripple drop of these bad boys, probably dropping them on a flank in the beginning and concentrating the rest of my forces elsewhere.
I don't expect them to "win" necessarily, but three are a threat that will require a substantial amount of firepower to bring down and seems like it will tie up the flank nicely.
That is a very good question. The awnser depends upon how much support you give them, what the rest of your list looks like, and how flexile you want them.
The autocannon gives good support, and high S shots and it makes them very flexible. If your opponent will kill them turn one you can start further back and shoot with the autocannons.
If you have good fire support (drop pod with melta, or other long range high power weapons) the flamers qre quite good. Anything that is nit high thoughness will die to the flamer. More elite less horde targets will die to the fist.
Persoally I really like the flamer option. Provided that you have othe ranged support. You can always do 2 flamers and 1 autocannon as it can be hard to go to wide.
I do not use him. I suppose he is actually quite good.
I would like a shield on him. But the fundamental proble is that he is a primaris on foot. I do not have any primaris transports. So delivery is the problem.
Also, who does his auraboost? Dreadnoughts standing at home? The Wolf Guards with jumppacks?
He probably has some homes. But that is not with me. (I am currently babysitting som terminators. But a jump pack with armour of russ will be better.)
Before I got Ragnar I was using a Captain in Terminator armour with a master crafted Thunder Hammer and he hit like a monster.
At only 115 points, with wolfkin he had 4 + D3 attacks at S8, AP2, D4.
I feel like unless Ragnar is taking on a unit of infantry, he isn't particularly effective. Even then, if he doesn't charge, he fails to impress on most occasions.
Doesn't help that every man and his dog has a 4+ invun save in 9th edition
Ragnar is very good in rull primaris armies. Typically you don't need transports, just let 10-20 run on foot with him. Lots of other primaris/gravis dudes are mostly played on foot so he and the unit(s) that joins him would have all the target redundancy they need to avoid being prioritized by enemy firepower.
The easy access to deep strike that jump packs and terminators have limits his use quite a bit for those who rely on a significant portion of firstborn models as none of them would like to walk.
I also play full firstborn with nothing starting on foot so I don't see any reason to run Ragnar or even a generic character on foot.
Ragnar is good. Certainly in more casual lists. The problem is that in competitive play there are other things in the SW book that do his job better, mainly a generic Captain with a Jump Pack. I may try to run him anyways though whenever I get around to playing Wolves competitively; his model is too damn cool to be a shelf warmer.
What do you people think about deep striking terminators?
I am trying to consider having some that can land and then treaten objectives. I can not deside if I want combi flamers and a heavy flamer. They can land and just flame anything of an objective.
4 combi falmers, 1 heavy flamer, 5 power axes is 190 points. That is a lot of points for sweeping objectives. But they are also very hard to shift.
But if I give them 5 combi meltas they have more things they can treathen. 5 melta shots with fury of the first born has them hit on 2+. Is that something that can be good? Or on that case should I just take more multi-melta long fangs since they perform that job better?
I am also considering having a chaplain with wulfen stone so they can charge the same turn they land. Perhaps combined with other deep striking units.
So. Eradicators and how to use them. It felt like they were the boogeymen of 9th, but that was ages ago. I feel as if they're a bit of an unusual use case now. I ask the following question. How do you use Eradicators?
My main quibble is their range - a measly 24'' inches, max. They want to get even closer to do maximum damage. So if you want to be aggressive, that calls for either transporting them or advancing them with Melta Rifles, the latter imposing a -1 penalty to their Melta Rifles and robbing them of the double-shoot.
A possible use case could be defensive usage, but again, their range means they'll have to be carefully positioned.
RaptorusRex wrote: So. Eradicators and how to use them. It felt like they were the boogeymen of 9th, but that was ages ago. I feel as if they're a bit of an unusual use case now. I ask the following question. How do you use Eradicators?
My main quibble is their range - a measly 24'' inches, max. They want to get even closer to do maximum damage. So if you want to be aggressive, that calls for either transporting them or advancing them with Melta Rifles, the latter imposing a -1 penalty to their Melta Rifles and robbing them of the double-shoot.
A possible use case could be defensive usage, but again, their range means they'll have to be carefully positioned.
Not sure they are that great as Wolves, but they are a solid unit. You definitely need good positioning, but don't forget you can outflank them with On the Hunt or the regular outflanking rules (for CP depending on how much stuff you outflank). This could be good to make sure they get at least one shot at something, and their range may seem short but it is enough to make them tricky to screen out.
Playing them defensively could be a viable tactic too, but I personally think it's a waste of their points to do so. YMMV, of course.
RaptorusRex wrote: So. Eradicators and how to use them. It felt like they were the boogeymen of 9th, but that was ages ago. I feel as if they're a bit of an unusual use case now. I ask the following question. How do you use Eradicators?
My main quibble is their range - a measly 24'' inches, max. They want to get even closer to do maximum damage. So if you want to be aggressive, that calls for either transporting them or advancing them with Melta Rifles, the latter imposing a -1 penalty to their Melta Rifles and robbing them of the double-shoot.
A possible use case could be defensive usage, but again, their range means they'll have to be carefully positioned.
They still are boogeymen, just not in the tournament scene where the most competitive lists don't bring many appropriate targets for melta weapons. In fact you don't see melta weapons in general in solid numbers at tournaments, not just eradicators. They are still very undercosted for what they do, and at least 3 of them are pretty much autoinclude. Don't waste points on a transport, outflank them. They'll be in melta range and at full strenght then.
Well there was a 3rd place SW list that ran 11 melta/combi melta and 4 multi meltas. (With Master Artisan so that you can hit with them.) (Link bellow.))
Most SM lists have often included some units of longfans/devestators in a drop pod. With some maount of multimelta and armoured cheerub so you get one good turn of shooting before they die.
I guess as the meta whipped up the anti tak shot had to be delivered fast. Including paying 70 points for a drop pod. Even if you outflank the eradiactors they don't get the shoot twice because they moved.
I've quite the saga, brothers. Godwyn Bullroarer of the Greymanes chapter managed to do 8 damage in a turn to a Cerberus Heavy Tank Destroyer on his lonesome and merced a Dreadnought in a single turn of combat, with naught but a Master-crafted Frost Sword. How could this be? Our Beastslayer warlord trait might be situational, but it is deadly in combination with Imperium's Sword against VEHICLE units.
How are you people finding phobos units? I like that they start up on the board, witch is where I want my troops to be. The fact that they are ready for action early on is good.
Incursors is where the money is. Small dagger for more AP. 'only' 21 points
Infiltrators lack the dagger and are more expensive. But if you want to go all in on buffing shooting they seems better. The gun can deal mortal wounds. The deep strike deny is cute.
Many lists take deepstriking, outflanking or drop pods. Having some close backup can be good. The psyker is quite descent if you take SW powers.
Much needed, but I'm still not sure it makes them any better than Jump Pack Wolf Guard. They are still limited by terrain; on some tables they can really put in the work, but on tables that have those L-shaped pieces that are all the rage these days they are going to struggle. I will admit I've been trying to figure out a way to make them work though; they are an iconic unit and really deserve to see some play.
Wulfen came down 2 points as well. All I can say is, meh. They're still pretty bad.
I already play TWC so yeah, I'll take that. Wulfen sometimes too.
Honestly with these changes I'd probably save like 25 points on a 2000 points list. Not enough to add any other unit but enough to optimize some units' loadouts maybe, like a few extra weapons here and there.
Well you might get 25 point increases elsewhere as well. We will have to wait and see.
With the points going down 3 with lightnclaw and stormshield are only 150. 135 if you run them with chainsword. That can be a fun distraction units. They have 19 attacks when they fight (wolf atacks included.) Not amazing, but cute.
These days I have put most of my SW asside for a smal break. Tyraids crusher stampede and the new GSC codex are currently on my sights. It is overwhelming!
Niiai wrote: How are you people finding phobos units? I like that they start up on the board, witch is where I want my troops to be. The fact that they are ready for action early on is good.
Incursors is where the money is. Small dagger for more AP. 'only' 21 points
Infiltrators lack the dagger and are more expensive. But if you want to go all in on buffing shooting they seems better. The gun can deal mortal wounds. The deep strike deny is cute.
Many lists take deepstriking, outflanking or drop pods. Having some close backup can be good. The psyker is quite descent if you take SW powers.
Saw a chap on goonhammer had a cool strat with phobos and phobos libby.
infilsx2 plibby and 2-3elims. he would have 1x infil and 1x elim and libby placed up the board on an obj, have the infils infront and shroud the elims so they could plink away and not be targeted. the others could be placed back as needed and he was picking off chars with the elims every game he was saying.
So if our Jump Pack Wolf Guard with Lightning Claw and Storm Shield are going to the same points ( cost as Vanguard Veterans with the same loadout... why do we suddenly have an inferior unit with no advantage?
WGJP have -1 leadership (8 vs 9) and loses Melta Bombs and Combat Squads keywords compared to VV. And VV can put a relic blade on their sergeant and have a wider selection of pistols. Not that we care too much about pistols, but options.
These are all minor drawbacks, granted, but it feels bad to not be compensated for them.
Our Dread-heavy lists took a bit of a knock too, as Redemptors went up by 10 and VolCons went up by 20 (each weapon arm went up 10). Wulfen weapons apparently got cheaper, in addition to the base unit cost coming down, so that's...something, I guess. Most of the general Marine tank discounts won't affect SW much; ditto for the drop on DevCents (which I believe we can technically take, lol). I can't see Wulfen and ThunderCav becoming a new meta or anything though; those units probably need rules changes to become better. ThunderCav get screwed hard by some terrain layouts, as I mentioned in an earlier post, and Wulfen are not Core and can't do actions. Damn shame, because I love ThunderCav and although I'm probably in the minority I actually like the Wulfen models too.
New to the 9th Wolves here, so this has probably been discussed many times before, but:
It seems like a Wolf Lord on a Thunderwolf with Wulfen, The Imperium's Sword, and the Teeth of Terra makes for an incredibly effective meat grinder. I can't see the Black Death ever being more useful than the Teeth of Terra - You'll already be at S6, so bumping to S7 doesn't help against most targets you'll want to fight anyways, and D2 *is* extremely useful against many targets you'll want to fight - plus I'd rather have a consistent 3 than an inconsistent d6.
Crafter91 wrote: I've had a few games with my wolves now and to date, i'm not doing great with them.
Most 1k lists roughly consist of
HQ: Captain with armour of russ and T Hammer
TROOPS: Two units of grey hunters with chainswords.
TRANSPORT: Razorback with lascannon - have also used assault cannon previously
ELITES: Ven Dread or Murderfang
FAST: 3 Thunderwolf cavalry with shields/chainsword. Leader with Powerfist.
1-2 Cyber wolves
HEAVY: 3 Eradicators.
Any advice for how to use the above or what you would change are welcomed.
I'd consider dropping the Razorback and one of the squads of Grey Hunters for some faster infantry. Transports don't seem too worth the points right now. With a Patrol, you only 'need' to take 1 Troop. Personally, I prefer Incursors over almost any other troop right now.
Either Skyclaws or Wolf Guard with Jump Packs for the one of the Grey Hunters (and Cyberwolves), and for 125 points for the Razorback you can get a Wulfen Dread with Axe/Claw & Shield, and maybe enough points for Heavy Flamer(s) since a 5+ BS means the Storm Bolters are worth... little. Cyberwolves took a hit the recent CA2022, as they can't do some of the secondaries now (ie, need 5 models).
Skyclaws are cheap, though Wolf Guard with Jump Packs, Lightning Claws and Storm Shields are more point efficient.
Lightning Claws are twice as good as Chainswords vs Marine equivalents, so if you can upgrade the Thunderwolf Cavalry in general it's worth it.
Personally, I like Wolf Lord on Thunderwolf with Teeth of Terra, Imperiums Sword and Wolfkin for the "omg how many attacks?!?", but then you would need to move Armor of Russ to someone else (like a Primaris Techmarine also with Warrior Born babysitting the Dreads, heroic intervening and letting himself and a Dread go before the charging unit).
It seems like you were about a 100-150 points short, did you miss a unit or character?
With Armor of Contempt SM as a whole got a buff. I'm thinking about a dreadnought list with Bjorn, Murderfang, 3 - 4 Vendreads or Wulfen dreads with Axe/Blizzard shields. Escorted by a Libby to hand out -1 to hit. It might not be competitive but i've got most of the models already!
Automatically Appended Next Post: I'm also thinking about Blade guard vs WG/JP vs Terminators now.
I've always used a custom-chapter with Born-Heroes and Whirlwind of Rage, but recently I've been thinking of switching over to Bone-Heroes and Tactical Withdrawl. My reasoning is that the extra exploding six is nice, but being able to consistently get a charge in almost any ongoing combat might be more useful overall.
Whirlwind of Rage is worth probably 1.5-2x Born Heroes.
Compare them both to the first part of Hunters Unleashed. +1 to hit while charging/being charged/heroic intervention.
Born Heroes is +1 to hit while charging, so half(?) the worth of Hunters Unleashed. Based on what percentage of fights you have that you are charged or you HI into and not charging yourself. You would have to never be charged or use HI for it to be equal to Hunters Unleashed, or somehow get a large number of additional charges that Hunters Unleashed doesn't.
Whirlwind of Rage, exploding 6s are mathematically the same as +1 to hit (if the +1 to hit wouldn't be wasted). Whirlwind has the same triggers as Hunters Unleashed, so mathematically equivalent.
For the proof that exploding 6s are the same as +1 to hit, consider the number of hits on average. 6 attacks at 3+ is 4 hits (just assume you rolled 1 of each number). A +1 to hit means hitting on 2s, so 5 hits. An extra hit on a 6 means you still hit on 3s, but you also have 5 hits on average because you count the 6 twice.
As for Tactical Withdrawal... yeah, I suppose that could get you some additional charges, but I don't think it'll be enough to get you over Whirlwind of Rage. If Tactical Withdrawal allowed shooting as well... that could be interesting. Especially if you are running more Terminators or combi- on the Wolf Guard. Some people have been floating Stealthy as an option too. Doubling down with AoC against ranged.
Continuing on from the thread above, quick Successor Tactics poll...
Generally speaking it's almost an auto take (for most) to pick Whirlwind of Rage for their first tactic, but the second is often left open for debate.
I quite like Tactical Withdrawal as I tend to run two units of TWC which are entirely melee focussed. I often find they almost kill something in combat and then waste the next phase finishing them off when they could be off fighting something else while other units shoot the last remaining minis off the board.
I do dreadnought spam. Redemtor plasma, and wulfen dreadnought with axe and shield. I see a good argument for double flamer wulfen as well. But the 10 point was a dealbreaker for me.
I often sprinkle in wolf guards on jump packs. Or other things. I sometime do terminator castle, but it is very rough on my ork opponent so I have stoped doing it. I also take other venerabke dreandoughts for fun.
I tend to keep troops to a minimum, or very small. Troops are great util you loose 20 a turn to some damage 2 gun.
I also run some thunderwolves. But they used to be bad. Perhaps the new rules (cheaper) and the armour of contempt could make them more fun,
I am currently working on a knight to ally in. I expect it to not be very strong.
As far as allying in a Knight, I think 1-3 Armiger Warblades are interesting... but I feel like Wulfen Dreadnoughts fit that role better.
Yes, the Armiger has more wounds, but that just means it degrades. Wulfen Dread has Duty Eternal and more importantly, 4+ Invulnerable. Armiger is faster (which is actually a good selling point), and has more anti-tank weapons (melta and thermal lance vs 1-2 heavy flamers). But slightly more expensive even if you go double flamer (150 with Warglaive with Melta).
Reaper Chain-cleaver is roughly the same as the Fenrisian Greataxe as well. Sweep and Scythe are exactly the same at S6 AP-3 D1 double attacks (though the Wulfen gets Shock Assault). Strike and Cleave are not quite the same but close. Both S10, AP-3 but D3+3 and -1 to hit on the Axe vs AP-4 and Flat 3 on the Reaper.
However, the biggest selling point for me is that allying in the 1-3 Armigers means I am not spending 1-3 elite slots on Wulfen Dreadnoughts. And we like our elite slots. But, adding an extra Vanguard Detachment is the same CP cost as the Auxiliary Super Heavy, so I am not sure it's worth it.
I don't have my book in front of me but I think Wulfen are 5 points cheaper, and their thunder hammers are only 10 points now (i'm assuming the SS is included like in the book)
that brings them close very close to my staple of Wolf guard with TH/SS + JP. i think a 3 point difference.
Automatically Appended Next Post: my math was off, wulfen would be 9 points cheaper!
Yeah Wulfen are actually gross now. Pity there's no reason to take the axes on them, as in the one unit of them I own I built two of them that way for Rule of Cool. Means I'll need to buy more Wulfen if I want to run a competitive unit of them.
Yeah a wulfen with shield and hammer is 30 points. While better offensive the 3+ 4++ comperes less favorable to the 2+ and armour of contempt and 5++ from the Terminators. I guess it is a trade off of offensence VS defence.
Friendly tournament over the weekend and decided to take the pups out for walkies
1k Points, wasn't the most competitive list (mostly because of what models i had ready and painted) but was pretty much as follows:
Spoiler:
Captain with Thunder Hammer
2 units of assault intercessors
1 unit of regular intercessors
2 single cyber wolves
2 ven dreads (one with axe/shield, the other with hell frost and wolf claw)
3 eradicators
1 impulsor transport.
Game one against Death Guard, was rolling fairly well and got first turn, making a T1 charge with my Axe dread into a Plague Burst Crawler that was deployed a little too close.
Killed a defiler in T2 and mopped up in T3.
Game two was against imperial guard. I was actually tabled with the exception of my warlord in this game in T5 but somehow won it on points! Guard auto wounding on 6s is so strong. I got lucky on this one.
Game three was against a not-so-friendly grey knights list that included two dreadknights, terminators and draigo. Coupled with bad rolls on my part, the game was over in two turns. I killed two models from a strike squad. Ouch!
Game four was against Orks, and bad deployment on my part opened for door for a turn one Wagh... it was not pretty. I managed to rally from it a bit, eventually killing most units in the ork army but by this point, I was too far behind on points and the game was lost.
All in all a fun day. I still find myself wondering about the position wolves are in right now, but a 50% win rate is probably what you want to be seeing in friendly games right?
That said, where do you guys see us in the grand scheme of things? If we were to split all 40k factions into two tiers, upper and lower, which group would you put us in?
It depends a bit on how you define it. But if I only the best are in the topp I do not think marines are there, and probably not SW. That beeing said in a cassual environment we are doing just fine I think.
All in all a fun day. I still find myself wondering about the position wolves are in right now, but a 50% win rate is probably what you want to be seeing in friendly games right?
This is a general misconception people have. A 50ish% win rate is what we get IF players have access to a large collection and both players are equally lucky and skilled. Randon X collection vs random Y collection rarely ends up with a 50/50 rate, it can easily be 0/100.
That said, I play only firstborn SW armies, 2000 points games using a collection of 3500ish points, refuse to play against any other imperium faction (for fluff reasons, I've done that since I started playing this faction) and although I don't keep track of my wins/losses record I have the feeling that my army's win rate is around 50%. Cannot say what's the general state of the faction, only my experience.
Niiai wrote: What are good secondaries for us? I have a hard time finding one. My opponent is an ork, and they are just so bothersome and agressive.
Warrior Born where you score for making charges or just being in combat is often an auto take for me. I max it most games.
Heroic Challenge is now also quite good because we can pick the character we want to kill. In your case, it means you can target a weird boy or something where as previously, your opponent would have made you chase after Ghaz. Even if your warlord doesn't get the job done, kill it in combat with any old unit for 10 points.
Depending on the mission, particularly the objective placements, Oaths of Moment is still decent for clocking up points slowly over the game for killing stuff and being in the midboard.
I like behind enemy lines - your ork opponent will likely want to run everything forward so play a couple of reserve units and find a safe spot to sneak in on their back line and potentially steal their home objective while you're at it.
Lol. I would not choose the weardboy! When ever I tryed the old one the opponent chose the weard boy. In almost all games the weardboy will roll with Da'jump. After that it is very hard to hunt him down, 15 point jumping from one side of the map to the other.
Warrior born you max? Do you mean warrior pride? Are you getting 2 things making charges even turn 1? I can easy see it getting 9 points, but 15 seems like a lot.
Glory kills seem good.
I am considering a mighty saga. But then I compare my HQ with the Ork HQ. The warboss on beastsnagha puts them on T6, D3 mount (with mortal wounds) and damage - 1. And then they run it with brutal but cunning and headchoppa killwhoppa. That ork boss is soooooo killy! And our HQ is no where near as killy. And a mighty saga is the same secondary as a Ork stratagem. It just seems like it is better in their codex. Both codexes have a fight on death hero stratagem.
Good morning everyone. From what I understand SW are not really in the best place atm but I'm still very interested in the army due to models.
With that new chapter approved detached coming out(I just play with friends) I'm looking to use it and build a "Wolf Army". Canis/Lord on Thunderwolf, Thunderwolf cavalry, fenris wolves cyberwolves. No idea how that would be perform. My guess is not the best but it would look nice and be fun. I'm mainly asking is what kind of ranged support would you use to get them down the field? I'd rather not use Longfangs(but will of the dread/tank options suck) because I would want my infantry to be wolves or riding wolves.
And what loadouts on the Lord/Thunderwolf cavalry. Ideally this would be a 2k list.
I haven't played a single game of 40k since the first month of 6th ED. So still a lot of learning to do.
You might be in luck. In the next 6 months competetive matches will be using a different detachment where you do not need troops. Troops is the worst part of a space marine army. And none of the troops rides on wolves.
Long fangs, eliminators and plasma redemptor dreads are our best ranged attack. So only dreadnoughts for you? At that point yiu can pritty much grab any ranged model you like. So rule of cool, grab the ranged support you like best.
Niiai wrote: You might be in luck. In the next 6 months competetive matches will be using a different detachment where you do not need troops. Troops is the worst part of a space marine army. And none of the troops rides on wolves.
Long fangs, eliminators and plasma redemptor dreads are our best ranged attack. So only dreadnoughts for you? At that point yiu can pritty much grab any ranged model you like. So rule of cool, grab the ranged support you like best.
I saw that detachment in the Ark of Omen/Chapter approved thing that comes out soon. So I thought it would be a good time to do an army that has models I like a bunch since I can do a fun/theme.
GW has dropped the new dataslate. It appears that they forgot Wolf Guard can take combi-weapons. For 23 points per model, you can get a WG with a jump pack and combi-melta. Basically you can field 30 fast guys with combi-meltas fpr 690 points in total. And if you don't have enough LoS blocking then you put them into reserve. That seems absurd to me.
Played my first game of AOO with wolves today and I was a little underwhelmed, not sure how to run these guys at the moment
Firstly, a good point - i didn't really notice the lack of Armor of Contempt too much. A lot of my army has always ran with storm shields anyway so didn't get ti to begin with.
I only really felt it on my regular troop choices and if you danced around cover it was generally enough to offer some survivability.
What I didn't like was the new secondaries - Wolves are now left with the regular choices, the marine book options and Warrior Pride from their own book.
Warrior Pride is a decent secondary but not the one I would have kept given the choice. It also comes from the Battlefield Supremacy slot which is home to several other secondaries that wolves score well, and I found myself taking Shock Tactics instead, along with Bring it Down and Oaths of Moment because there were no other decent options available.
Overall I didn't score too badly (didn't win either) but had to play in a playstyle that doesn't particularly suit wolves in order to score as I did.
The changes to Tactical Doctorines WILDLY favour Heavy Shooters, not just by enabling them to stay in dev doct but by also not changing the Codex Warfare secondary which awards 2vp for units killed in devastator but only 1vp for the others. If it were 2vp for each then this would be very viable for us. Doctorines definitely needed a change but the new rules aren't the way to go.
Definitely need another few games with them to try out some other options but at the moment i think i might be sticking with my other factions for the most part in this season of 40K
One person on Facebook just stayed in devestator doctrine all game. The psyker and a stratagem can out things in assault doctrine, and the wulfen are already in it.
It is no secret that iron hands is the best SM faction and the moment. Partly because they are so insanely good. And now because they can stay in devestator all day and that new secondary is so good for them.
Right so i've played a couple more games with the wolves and it's becoming clear that (while theyre still a combat army) they can't lean into it as much as before.
New list, coming up. I think you're right about staying in the dev doctorine and using psychic and the two available strats to place units into assault.
I've added in not one but two Repulsor Executioners for a tonne of light fire power which will be at AP2 while in the dev doct, not to mention the lasers which hit on 2s and will be AP5 for d3+3 damage. Ouchy.
I've also added in the good old Invicta Tactical Warsuit (controversial!) for some outflanking in the deployment phase. Combined with a drop pod containing 2 grey hunter units, it should help to stir some poop on turn one while the rest of the army moves up the table.
List below, keen to get some thoughts.
Spoiler:
+ HQ +
Bjorn the Fell-handed [10 PL, 155pts]: Helfrost cannon
Librarian [5 PL, 80pts, -1CP]: 2. Murderous Hurricane, 4. Instincts Awoken, 5. Storm Caller, Combi-melta, Force axe, Stratagem: Relic of the Chapter, Tome of Malcador
Wolf Lord on Thunderwolf [7 PL, 120pts, -3CP]: Combi-melta, Hunter, Stratagem: Relic of the Chapter, Stratagem: Warlord Trait, Stratagem: Warrior of Legend, The Armour of Russ, The Imperium's Sword, Thunder hammer, Warlord
+ Troops +
Grey Hunters [6 PL, 90pts]: 4x Astartes Chainsword, Wolf Standard
. Grey Hunter Pack Leader: Power fist
. 3x Grey Hunter w/Bolt Pistol: 3x Bolt pistol, 3x Boltgun, 3x Frag & Krak grenades
. Grey Hunter with Special Weapon: Bolt pistol, Meltagun
Grey Hunters [6 PL, 90pts]: 4x Astartes Chainsword, Wolf Standard
. Grey Hunter Pack Leader: Power fist
. 3x Grey Hunter w/Bolt Pistol: 3x Bolt pistol, 3x Boltgun, 3x Frag & Krak grenades
. Grey Hunter with Special Weapon: Bolt pistol, Meltagun
That you can not. Not to be overly rude but perhaps you should look up the units entry in either the codex, gw's app, wahapedia or perhaps even test the unit out in battelscribe.
Good luck in the tourney brother, may Russ guide your arm !
