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I wanted to get your feedback of a first draft of a list I was working on. Feel I was hampered by not owning the codex.

Main plan is to have some long range pressense turn 1 and 2 in laser razrobacks and long fangs. Then from turn 2 forwards I will be able to threaten my opponent with good melee units and what ever is left of my ranged suport. Terminators are to hold mid objective as an unmovable force.

Not really sure about the rhino with grey hunters in as it is rather exspensive. I would love to have more units in the list. I feel like I am loosing out on 'cute' units like a counter charge dreadnought. And 5 wolf guards with combi flamers and jump packs.

Random observation on Wolf Guard Terminators:

The Sergeant is equipped with a Storm Bolter and Power Sword, the others are equipped with a Storm Bolter and Power Fist.
Point 1 allows any model to replace it's power sword or power fist with a chainfist, a lightning claw, a power axe, a power fist, a power maul, a thunder hammer, or a storm shield.
Point 2 allows any model to replace it's storm bolter with a chainfist, a lightning claw, a power axe, a power fist, a power sword, a power maul, a thunder hammer, or a combi-weapon.

This means, that you cannot equip the regular guys with power sword + storm bolter. They start with a power first, and none of the things they can trade it out for are a power sword. If they want a power sword, they have to trade their storm bolter for it. Which is just kind of passively interesting to notice.

I'm also slightly confused as to whether or not the regular guys have to buy the power fist for 5 points, or if it's free and baked into them. Power Fist has a 5 point cost on the points cost table for them, but all the other units don't have to pay for their starting loadouts.



My previous list was pretty in on WG Terminators, but in general I'm not sure if I'm feeling them so much right now. The Storm Shield nerf, combined with the Thunder Hammer nerf, doesn't make me so hot on them anymore.

That said, previously I was running:
Pack Leader: Thunder Hammer, Storm Shield
WG Terminator: Storm Shield, Assault Cannon
WG Terminator: Thunder Hammer, Storm Shield
WG Terminator: Storm Shield, Storm Bolter
WG Terminator: Storm Shield, Storm Bolter

I might consider this still a valid loadout, but I might also consider trading the Thunder Hammer for Chainfists. Chainfists are now decidedly better against vehicles and stuff, and with better AP will put down marine-like infantry more reliably than the hammers will [particularly ]. Hammers will be better against Aggressors and Eradicators.

I don't think it's worth mixing the D1d3 damage Chainfists and D1 power axes [since no Storm Shield/Sword] in the same unit. You can't like set it up efficiently to have an axe hit finish off every model that was wounded but not slain by a Chainfist, so you're just kind of keeping the axes around for whacking W1 high save models. I'm not sure if that's more or less valuable than having a Storm Bolter, or maybe even another combi-weapon like a Combi-Plasma, to do gak with.

I might even consider going:
Pack leader: Chainfist, Combi Plas
Terminator: Storm Shield, Assault Cannon
Terminator: Chainfist, Combi Plas
Terminator: Storm Shield, Combi Plas
Terminator: Storm Shield, Combi Plas

which would be a pretty lethal unit that can come in off the drop and light something up with shooting without having to rely on making a 9" charge, but can also proceed to go on a shred stuff in melee with the chainfists.





Also, with regards to Wulfen: As far as thunder hammer bearers go, I think I'd definitely chose Wulfen to bear the hammers over Terminators. Yeah, Wulfen don't have the save or the extra wound, but like, at the same time, the Wulfen are always in assault doctrine, can re-roll charges meaning they're more likely to get stuck in coming off the outflank and actually use those beaty sticks, have more attacks, and are faster after arrival to keep using them.

I'm not entirely keen on shelling out for a whole unit of thunder hammers though on my wulfen, I'm thinking of going 2 with hammers, since 8 attacks on the charge exploding on 6's ought to kill pretty much anything [except a Dreadnought. F*** Duty Eternal] and 2 with Axes since the Axes are S8, AP4, D2 [read: perfect anti-marine] and cost 8 points less each. Sure, it's only a 16 points saving, but 16 point savings add up.



Finally, with regards to TWC:
Claws are 5, Fists are 10, the body on the dog if 45 out of the gate, 50 with a shield. I really like their general profiles, but I'm not entirely certain what melee weapons I want.
On one hand, the dogs should be plenty good enough at killing the crud out of any W1 infantry unit I come across, so I feel like I should buy fists for them [or even hammers, but I'm eh on hammers now that they cost a lot and are only AP2]. On the other hand, fists add up and have that -1 to hit, so the claws might work out pretty okay anyway

Right. I was thinking of that when I put together the unit. But forgot when I went back to touch up the list. I do not know if I need the storm bolter.

I am not a fan of the assault cannon. 6 shots, S6 AP1 is very bad compared to the cyclone missile launcher in my eyes. You want the cyclone missile launcher to krack open transports. Or to lend some help far away. They can ignore the termiators, but that means you grab points and shoot with 2 rockets (40% of a long fang squad.) If they do not ignore you they have to shift the terminators witch I think on paper looks very dificult.

Regarding the thunder hammer, while it is exspensive and not so good AP, I think you will find an upswing in 3 wound models. Bikes and terminators will be hard to kill with a 2 wound weapon I think. It will depend on the list.

I am not sure about the combi plasma terminators. Rolling a 1 when overcharging means you can blow up! You also loose out on a lot of melee action.

I have really enjoyed a switch from combi-plasma to combi-melta, in general.

Really getting in and popping vehicles and you can still do serious damage to an elite unit.

Personally I run my Terminators as melee with 2x Shield/hammer, 2x Twin lightning claw, and the Leader has a chainfist and a Combi-Melta just to soften up a tough vehicle or something if need be on the turn they drop in.

Edit: I have been considering a modification to make a unit that has 3 Shield/combi-melta, and 2xshield/chain fist. But I don't have enough bits for the combi-melta at the moment!

And popping arms off of guys is tough since its all solidly glued already.

 Niiai wrote:
Right. I was thinking of that when I put together the unit. But forgot when I went back to touch up the list. I do not know if I need the storm bolter.

I am not a fan of the assault cannon. 6 shots, S6 AP1 is very bad compared to the cyclone missile launcher in my eyes. You want the cyclone missile launcher to krack open transports. Or to lend some help far away. They can ignore the termiators, but that means you grab points and shoot with 2 rockets (40% of a long fang squad.) If they do not ignore you they have to shift the terminators witch I think on paper looks very dificult.

Regarding the thunder hammer, while it is exspensive and not so good AP, I think you will find an upswing in 3 wound models. Bikes and terminators will be hard to kill with a 2 wound weapon I think. It will depend on the list.

I am not sure about the combi plasma terminators. Rolling a 1 when overcharging means you can blow up! You also loose out on a lot of melee action.

You don't need to fully kit the squad for melee. You only need to have enough weapons to make anything you touch unhappy. Any extra melee weapons are overkill, and wasted points. In this case, 7 attacks on the forward go with a Chainfist or Thunder Hammer will kill almost any heavy infantry or vehicle model you come across. The only units that can expect to survive are things like large sections of Terminators or Aggressors. If you're really uncertain, add an extra Chainfist/Hammer and go to 10 attacks.


I'm also definitely not up on the cyclone box for Terminators. Heavy 6 S6 AP1 D1 for 10 points is pretty good compared to 2 shots S8 AP2 D1d6 for 25. Like, they're not going to blow up any tanks with their Cyclone box, and also that's what Eradicators are for.


I don't know about taking combi-meltas. They won't be in short range on the drop, and there's no way to extend their range, so if I give them combi-meltas then I'm basically counting on having guys with meltaguns left on turn 3, and given that I kill the gun/shield guys first to save my chainfist guys, I'm not sure about that. I could see dropping the assault cannon entirely for another storm shield plasmagun guy or something.

That's a fair point. I am just SUPER paranoid about losing expensive units to a bad overcharged plasma roll. I have had some pretty bad luck with that. So, I am probably just jaded ha ha.

Axxion51 wrote:
That's a fair point. I am just SUPER paranoid about losing expensive units to a bad overcharged plasma roll. I have had some pretty bad luck with that. So, I am probably just jaded ha ha.

Have a wolf lord hang out with them. 1/36 chance of a guy dying per shot, overcharge away.

Those plasguns will also do better in the marine-on-marine matchup.

Finally, with regards to TWC:
Claws are 5, Fists are 10, the body on the dog if 45 out of the gate, 50 with a shield. I really like their general profiles, but I'm not entirely certain what melee weapons I want.
On one hand, the dogs should be plenty good enough at killing the crud out of any W1 infantry unit I come across, so I feel like I should buy fists for them [or even hammers, but I'm eh on hammers now that they cost a lot and are only AP2]. On the other hand, fists add up and have that -1 to hit, so the claws might work out pretty okay anyway

Don't forget that for 1cp the dogs are going to be pretty good at killing 2W infantry. And that with 6 attacks a model viscous executioners are going to put out some decent mortal wounds on infantry.

Yeah, that 1cp for 2 wound stratagem is really good.

What is viscous executioners?

The wolf lord hangout makes those plasma shots much better. I notice that old Bjorn the Fellhand also lets you re-roll hit rolls of one.

Yeah, that 1cp for 2 wound stratagem is really good.

What is viscous executioners?

The wolf lord hangout makes those plasma shots much better. I notice that old Bjorn the Fellhand also lets you re-roll hit rolls of one.

Viscous Executioners is 1cp Strategem. Use on Wolf Guard in fight phase only, for every natural 6 to wound they deal 1 mortal wound to Infantry only. If you have a way to re-roll wounds (Battle Leader, Lightning/Wolf Claws) it gets even better.

Aha.

Well the thunder wolf cavalery also have the wolf guard keyword. So props to blackie who wanted to do claws on them.

The way I read it it also help on the attacks form the thunderwolves as well, even though they are only mounts.

You can also use this stratagem with the terminators in the shooting phase. It looks more and more tasty to have 10 of them babysat by a character and shooting plasma.

"Fury of the First (1 CP): Select a TERMINATOR unit during either the shooting or fight phase. This unit adds +1 to their hit rolls. Now your termies won't need a chaplain to babysit them." Re-rolling 1's, hitting on 2's. Yes please. I mean, SW are the only once who can take combi plasma on their terminators (outside of characters) that is made for SW..

I've kitted my wolf guard termy squad out with a claw on one hand and a stormbolter in the other, when I did it up it was mostly more an aestetic choice, as when I put them together termies wheren't super compeitive, but now I think that might be one of the better builds for a WGT squad.

FWIW Wolf Guard Terminators do have the Teleport Strike special rule. So they work just as before. Strangely they don't have Teleport Homers special rule while normal Terminator squads do and they have the Wolf Guard keyword. So it's probably just an oversight.

But normal deepstriking is still allowed.

Axxion51 wrote:
That's a fair point. I am just SUPER paranoid about losing expensive units to a bad overcharged plasma roll. I have had some pretty bad luck with that. So, I am probably just jaded ha ha.

Me too. In fact I only give plasmas to grey hunters. Long fangs were also good but losing their ability to re-roll 1s is a hit for plasma cannons, now they might need a babysitting lord which isn't something you really want.

Any dreadnought can 1 CP a stratagem that lets bubble re-roll wound or hit rolls. That can be a good babysitter for long fangs.

 Weazel wrote:
FWIW Wolf Guard Terminators do have the Teleport Strike special rule. So they work just as before. Strangely they don't have Teleport Homers special rule while normal Terminator squads do and they have the Wolf Guard keyword. So it's probably just an oversight.

But normal deepstriking is still allowed.

I don't have my book on hand at the moment, but I think assault terminators do not have Teleport Homers as well.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I assume People are running 5 man TWC squads to avoid blast right? I'm planning to run 3 squads of 4, each with 1 TH/SS, 2 LC/SS, and 1 twin LCs.

I like the TWC, but that is more because I have fond memories of them.

I resently watched how ny old once looked and I can honestly say I was terrible at skulpting fur. I took some cold once and paked them full of green stuff. Then I dotted the greenstuff. Not my best.

 Jimbobbyish wrote:

 Weazel wrote:
FWIW Wolf Guard Terminators do have the Teleport Strike special rule. So they work just as before. Strangely they don't have Teleport Homers special rule while normal Terminator squads do and they have the Wolf Guard keyword. So it's probably just an oversight.

But normal deepstriking is still allowed.

I don't have my book on hand at the moment, but I think assault terminators do not have Teleport Homers as well.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I assume People are running 5 man TWC squads to avoid blast right? I'm planning to run 3 squads of 4, each with 1 TH/SS, 2 LC/SS, and 1 twin LCs.

Assault Terminator Squad and Terminator Squad both have Teleport Homers special rule. I would be interested to hear the reasoning if Wolf Guard Terminators don't receive it. It's a pretty steep price to pay for a little more versatility with loadouts.

Any chanses of a big change for terminators in codex release? I wanne do combi plasmas now.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I opened up the new SM codex I bought today and realise I am a very old man.

Anyway, I also picked up a Bjorn the fellhand. Horray! But I am confused as usual. It did not come with a lascannon.

However, I do think I have a lascannon somewhere from and old project.

What is the best way to equip him? Twin lascannon and flamer? He will ve walking/guarding terminators on the mid objective. Lascannons for AT?

Any chanses of a big change for terminators in codex release?

Maybe minor points changes. But no, I wouldn't expect major changes.

What is the best way to equip him? Twin lascannon and flamer? He will ve walking/guarding terminators on the mid objective. Lascannons for AT?

Given the points for his weapons, the Heavy Plasma Cannon, or Multi-Melta are both solid choices. The Twin Las is nice, but for the points I'd just go with the Multi-Melta and push him forward with the troops. However if you want him to sit back then you could go with Twin Las. The Assault Cannon and Helfrost are both garbage. Not that they are bad weapons. Just they are not cheaper than better weapons.

I prefer the Hellfrost Cannon to multi melta or heavy plasma cannon instead.

Multi meltas outside melta range aren't that great, 5 points more expensive, and Bjorn is a footslogger. Heavy plasma cannon is much better than the hellfrost using the dispersed profile but slightly inferior using the focussed profile, and now that he can't re-roll 1s I'd avoid causing mortal wounds on himself. IMHO it's a call between this two. Twin las is the most effective weapon but also the most expensive one.

Twin lascannon is not included in the kit, I got one from a SM ven dread by a bitz site so I can switch all the options, there's not even need to magnetize the arm.

What do people do for troops?

Grey Hunters/Blood Claws are better then regular tactical squad marines IMHO. But they need transport support. Nothing wrong with that, but they eat points out of the list.

It seems like a good idea to just take a small minimum unit of troops. Intercessor Squads in minimum numbers, perhaps with a grenade launcher seems to be cheap to just grab 3 and sitt them down in mid objectives for some honest work. While the rest 1700/1685 points of your list puts 'in the work'. Probably Heavy Interscessors could be nice to sit on home objective and shoot. (These are not out yet for sales though, is that correct?)

Regular Interscessors have the shoot twice stratagem, and assualt interscessors have the fight twice stratagem. It does not seem worth the CP in my eyes. Assault interscessors are just bad/exspesnive greyhunters/bloodclaws and they need transport.

What do you people think?

Is anyone ever going to spend 1CP to pop smoke on a Rhino? I can see why they made it an as-and-when ability, given that it can be quite a lot of bookkeeping, but putting that kind of cost on it (and restricting it to one unit in the whole army) is a bit steep. Night Lords might use their equivalent strat on like a Deathstar unit, and definitely a shield dread or whatever is a solid choice, but on a cheap transport that wants to field in pairs or more?

 Niiai wrote:
What do people do for troops?

Grey Hunters/Blood Claws are better then regular tactical squad marines IMHO. But they need transport support. Nothing wrong with that, but they eat points out of the list.

It seems like a good idea to just take a small minimum unit of troops. Intercessor Squads in minimum numbers, perhaps with a grenade launcher seems to be cheap to just grab 3 and sitt them down in mid objectives for some honest work. While the rest 1700/1685 points of your list puts 'in the work'. Probably Heavy Interscessors could be nice to sit on home objective and shoot. (These are not out yet for sales though, is that correct?)

Regular Interscessors have the shoot twice stratagem, and assualt interscessors have the fight twice stratagem. It does not seem worth the CP in my eyes. Assault interscessors are just bad/exspesnive greyhunters/bloodclaws and they need transport.

What do you people think?

If you're running Grey Hunters, you're running them as plasgun carriers [maybe melta carriers].
If you're running Bolter Dudes, you're running Intercessors with Bolt Rifles.
If you're planning to get stuck in, Assault Intercessors w/ Hammer, Auto Bolt Rifle Intercessors w/ Hammer, or Blood Claws is what you're looking for.

Not yet sure about Heavy Intercessors, but probably for sitting fat marines on objectives and saying "it's mine now". They don't look that impressive in firepower, which makes me hesitant on them.

If you're looking for cheap slot filler, you're out of luck.

I would say 3 naked regular interscessors are the cheap slot fillers for 315 points. No matter what happens you need something on objectives. That would be them.

 Niiai wrote:
I would say 3 naked regular interscessors are the cheap slot fillers for 315 points. No matter what happens you need something on objectives. That would be them.

maybe, heavy intercessors might be best if you just want buts to plant on objectives

Buts on objectives i would probably still go with grey hunters, but it depends on where the objectives I want them to sit on are.. Here me out.

I agree with Inquisitor Lord Katherine on the rolls layed out, I have been doing grey hunters with plasma all of 8th and still think that's the typical way to run them. 10 man squad, 3 plasma guns and a plasma pistol. Easy. (Yes I know 1 is technically a combi plasma but no one shoots the bolter part so....)

But a 90 pt, bare 5 man squad of grey hunters putting out 10 bolter shots and able to dish out 10 cc attacks at ap-1 on a mid field objective should be able to not only help support the rest of the army but is just strong enough to hold its own against anyone else in the same category and probably win in a fight. I think they are pt for pt one of our better cost efficient units for this job. For back field objectives I am going to stick with 5 man stalker bolt rifle intercessors because

A. I am not buying anymore 'new marines' just because gw put them out there
B. I have more than enough to make my army work just fine as it is at this point
C. Stalker bolt rifles are still pretty good

If your looking at it from the "i am new getting into this army what should I get" the new gravis troops may have some appeal. But for people who already own intercessors/blood claws/grey hunters i have to question the value of what the new gravis guys bring over what we already have and can do.

I’m probably more likely to take stalker bolt rifles now they’ve lost their sniper strat

It”s paradoxical, but before I always felt that they wanted to be a big unit to take best advantage of their strat, but taking ten always felt like an excessive buy-in for a backfield unit

Now that their role is more clearly defined as basic fire support, I don’t feel so worried about chasing a sweet spot of points & CP efficiency

 lindsay40k wrote:
Is anyone ever going to spend 1CP to pop smoke on a Rhino? I can see why they made it an as-and-when ability, given that it can be quite a lot of bookkeeping, but putting that kind of cost on it (and restricting it to one unit in the whole army) is a bit steep. Night Lords might use their equivalent strat on like a Deathstar unit, and definitely a shield dread or whatever is a solid choice, but on a cheap transport that wants to field in pairs or more?

If the Rhino is the only unit holding an objective that decides whether I get 10 or 15 VP next command phase then damn straight I'm going to pop smoke. It's situational, but not a bad stratagem by any means. Most importantly you don't lose out on shooting say with a Predator or Repulsor just for popping smoke.

Also anecdotally I had 7000 points of Space Wolves yet they released new Ragnar who can't fit into oldmarine transport so I kinda stepped through the rubicon and don't want to use oldmarines anymore outside of occasional Long Fangs or Wolf Guard Terminators. My Grey Hunters and Blood Claws look absolutely daft compared to Intercessor sweetness.

 Weazel wrote:

 lindsay40k wrote:
Is anyone ever going to spend 1CP to pop smoke on a Rhino? I can see why they made it an as-and-when ability, given that it can be quite a lot of bookkeeping, but putting that kind of cost on it (and restricting it to one unit in the whole army) is a bit steep. Night Lords might use their equivalent strat on like a Deathstar unit, and definitely a shield dread or whatever is a solid choice, but on a cheap transport that wants to field in pairs or more?

If the Rhino is the only unit holding an objective that decides whether I get 10 or 15 VP next command phase then damn straight I'm going to pop smoke. It's situational, but not a bad stratagem by any means. Most importantly you don't lose out on shooting say with a Predator or Repulsor just for popping smoke.

Also anecdotally I had 7000 points of Space Wolves yet they released new Ragnar who can't fit into oldmarine transport so I kinda stepped through the rubicon and don't want to use oldmarines anymore outside of occasional Long Fangs or Wolf Guard Terminators. My Grey Hunters and Blood Claws look absolutely daft compared to Intercessor sweetness.

I know what you mean. it's honestly not that big a deal when you're standing a few feet away looking at "tokens on a table" but yeah when standing together it's real obvious. it's not even just the size differance but the proportions.