Ragnar69 wrote: I'll be damned if would I make some IG schmuck the warlord of my Space Wolves. I would rather lose every single game. Some lines should not be crossed.
Than how about take Guilliman as the Warlord? He gives 3 CP for free and regenerate your used ones on 5+ roll. His buff is also not to be sneezed at even you are not Ultramarines, it is 12" aura of +1 to run and +1 to charge. He is also basically a Wolf Lord with 12" aura. He can also run up the field along your close combat units and he can chop big things up good as well.
Fluff wise, he can also be considered deserve to be warlord even for Space Wolves army, at the moment at least. Until GW decide to release the Primarch Leman Russ back.
The only thing to hold him back is his overpriced 400pts, and (probably) half of his value is wasted due to you not being Ultramarine.
Ragnar69 wrote: I'll be damned if would I make some IG schmuck the warlord of my Space Wolves. I would rather lose every single game. Some lines should not be crossed.
I feel the same, and really want my wolves to be a pure wolves list every time (save for the occasional knight, how can you resist the flamer/spear knight: The forge of fenris!) After my first game with them, I completely understand why guard CP farm is a thing. Also, as a book with no easy way to get CP, and no easy way to regen CP, CP regen needs nerfed because I'm salty that we don't have it!!! Seriously, my opponent started with 9, and rolled well enough to spend 15 before he was done. I had 8, and used 8. My money is on the september FAQ either killing the guard battery in one way or another, or limiting CP regen to be 1 per turn or something horrid that makes it as terrible as a -1 leadership to enemies.
Ragnar69 wrote: I'll be damned if would I make some IG schmuck the warlord of my Space Wolves. I would rather lose every single game. Some lines should not be crossed.
Haha. I like the cut of your jib.
I'm still convinced to make my Watch Captain my Warlord for the CP generation. It's so hard to fit in Deathwatch, Space Wolves, and Guard though!
Ragnar69 wrote: I'll be damned if would I make some IG schmuck the warlord of my Space Wolves. I would rather lose every single game. Some lines should not be crossed.
I feel the same, and really want my wolves to be a pure wolves list every time (save for the occasional knight, how can you resist the flamer/spear knight: The forge of fenris!) After my first game with them, I completely understand why guard CP farm is a thing. Also, as a book with no easy way to get CP, and no easy way to regen CP, CP regen needs nerfed because I'm salty that we don't have it!!! Seriously, my opponent started with 9, and rolled well enough to spend 15 before he was done. I had 8, and used 8. My money is on the september FAQ either killing the guard battery in one way or another, or limiting CP regen to be 1 per turn or something horrid that makes it as terrible as a -1 leadership to enemies.
If he had the battery used in the tourney meta, them statistically he should have had 17 CP. How did he feel about his bad luck CP wise? :b
Ragnar69 wrote: I'll be damned if would I make some IG schmuck the warlord of my Space Wolves. I would rather lose every single game. Some lines should not be crossed.
Agreed. I have always played single faction armies.
Had anyone looked at using Ulrik as a warlord? He gets saga of the beastslayer as well as oath of the slayer. So he and whoever he takes with him will be like bug spray for big nasty monsters with +2 to wound. Plus space wolves reroll all hits within 6 of him nd he has a 9" bubble for lending his Ld. I'm thinking of maybe putting him with 15 blood claws with fist and TH/SS pack leaders in a stormwolf or with wulfen in the storm wolf. Might be fun against my buddies bugs.
For the record, i also always play SW only. It’s just that if we were to make a competitive list, then we would have to atleast have IG (like every other imperial player in the top). I think we are very well off at casual games, but my meta is of course also more limited there. DG, nurgle, UM, custodes, GK is what i most commonly face. My biggest problem was leviathan dreadnoughts, but wulfen handles them very well now.
Ragnar69 wrote: I'll be damned if would I make some IG schmuck the warlord of my Space Wolves. I would rather lose every single game. Some lines should not be crossed.
Haha. I like the cut of your jib.
I'm still convinced to make my Watch Captain my Warlord for the CP generation. It's so hard to fit in Deathwatch, Space Wolves, and Guard though!
Quite happy to have a Space Wolf Deathwatch Watch Master running things.
Just need to find a way of throwing more dice.
My opponent played tyranids, he had 2 squads of tyranid warriors, a tyranid prime, a nerothrope, a broodlord, 20 genestealers, a trygon with 20 termagaunts (10 w/ fleshborers, 10 w/ devourers), and a trygon prime with 20 termagaunts (10 w/ fleshborers, 10 w/ devourers). Hive fleet kraken.
I deployed like i have been. 3 preds up front, all 4 hqs other than krom right behind them, and whirlwinds behind them, all in a nice 6" circle of death.
I won the roll off but he seized (but that was fine, i was going to give him t1 anyways). I moved my scout sentinals back to cover board space and deny a deep stike zone on 2 feet of the table on my side, and deployed all of my grey hunters on a hill on the side he put the genestealers. I put my guys 30" away from his, wanted to be sure he could not get into charge range t1. He moved everything forward but most of his warriors weapons were out of range. The ones that connected either were negated to armor saves or largely ineffective. He managed to kill 1 grey hunter and put 4 wounds on a sentinal scout.
My turn was more effective. Predator autocannons will ruin tyranid warriors. I ended up killing 1 whole warrior squad, putting 5 wounds onto the tyranid prime, and killing 12 genestealers with my shooting. We were both on 3 objectives so score was 3/3.
His second turn he moved everything up. Due to not killing that sentinal he had to drop the trygon with the termegaunts in on the front lines. He fired again with everything but again didnt do much. He killed 1 sentinal, the termigaunts destroyed the 5 man grey hunter pack, then he charged the genestealers and his broodlord into the other 2 hunter squads and krom. Overwatch killed 3 more genestealers, and those 5 only managed to kill 2 grey hunters! (His rolls went to crap there for a second, i fully expected to lose one squad). I interrupted and krom struck at the broodlord doing 5 wounds! Broodlord struck back and did 2. Full health hunter pack struck the broodlord killing it, but he popped a strat getting to attack again and he killed poor krom.
My turn i unloaded onto the other warrior squad killing 5 of the 6, putting 3 wounds onto the trygon, and dropping the termigaunt squad to 9 men. Whirlwinds were over kill vs them but they needed to be thinned while i could. Grey hunters killed the remaining genestealers between bolt pistol shots and cc, and i scored 1 vp to his 0.
At this point he called it. He could have kept going but he had lost most of his army, with only the trygon prime and some termagaunts left to do anybreal wounds. I had taken 0 dmg on any of my tanks thanks to getting the storm spell off twice and popping the -1 to hit strat for 2cp twice (thank you guard warlord!). 2 sentinals were at full health and about to be uncontested on 2 separate objectives, and he just didnt have any cp or options left.
The commander is worth the points if we are talking competitive. Gain a cp back when you spend one on a 5+, plus gain a cp on a 5+ when your opponent uses a strat? For a cp hungry force like wolves its gold. I had 4 cp left at the end and had spent at least 10 already throughout the game.
Krom is also amazing. For 90 pts he is almost an auto include if your taking a wolf lord on foot anyways. I prefer his axe to the relic one honestly.
I didnt outflank this time as i wanted him to come to me and i knew he had no choice as tyranids to do so. Grey hunters did well, but i miss them at full strength. If i did drop the imperial guard part of the list to go pure space wolves i could do that but then your having to be careful with cp spending, i dont know if thats worth it.
Just fought a small, but heavy hitting Tyrannid army from a guy who has been playing them for years. I'm new, and I think I got lucky, but I won.
Highlights; Lone Wolf'd a Long Fang with an LC. He spent the rest of the game pegging shots on stuff; dealing six damage to the last hive tyrant allowing my remaining six GH to take it down in melee.
Brought two Wolf Priests, one fully decked out with Wulfen Stone and he was my War Lord. Had a total of five attacks with power fist. He killed a full squad of Hive Guard and three Zoanthropes before being blasted off the board.
What I learned: Five man unit of TWC with H/S is absolutely going to get shot off the board if they don't make their turn two charge (RIP). My Wulfen didn't fair much better as they got their charge off, failed to taking anything down and then got shot off the board after the enemy fell back.
83 point Grey Hunter squads with an attached WGPL w/ SB are insanely good for their price.
Razorbacks can spit out a ton of wounds if left alone long enough.
Playing objectives will win you a game even if you're reduced to a unit of GH, a cyberwolf and a Lone Wolf LF.
Yeah, twc and wulfen are huge targets, they are powerful so people will shoot at them. Finding a way to protect them is hard. You could drop a rune priest in with the twc and give them the -1 to hit, or you could drop a wolf preist in for healing and rerolling misses. Either way your spending a lot of points on a small squad which isnt normally good.
Grey hunters and blood claws are looking like our dimonds in the rough, each is just specialized enough in their own thing that they can really allow you to play the game the way you want. Gh are terrific fire support and blood claws are just nasty in cc.
The lone wolf strat has had an odd side effect, i have only gotten it off once and it didnt do much then but what happens is people will see that 1 guy left, i will say "sweet, getting me a lone wolf" and they will send more firepower at it just to make sure it doesnt happen because a single grey hunter charecter may not be scarry, but park it on an objective and its annoying as crap.
I mean, its an op-spec charecter, what can you do about it? Lol.
Is it worth going with 10-man GH squads, with 2 Plasmaguns and a WGPL with Combiplasma? Or is it probably better to just go with 5 man units with just a plasmagun in each?
ZergSmasher wrote: Is it worth going with 10-man GH squads, with 2 Plasmaguns and a WGPL with Combiplasma? Or is it probably better to just go with 5 man units with just a plasmagun in each?
I dunno I'm going the ten and 3 route myself. I like big squads and I cannot lie.
ZergSmasher wrote: Is it worth going with 10-man GH squads, with 2 Plasmaguns and a WGPL with Combiplasma? Or is it probably better to just go with 5 man units with just a plasmagun in each?
Tactical Marines don't work when you do the minimum 5 man. Plus you want to outflank anyway, right? It's better to spend only one point rather than 2.
The outflank stratagem is a good way to deliver at least one unit. 2 plasma, a banner and wolf guard battle leader is all good in the good. It escapes me, but you can have more weapons in there ad well. Is it one pøsma gun? No other melee weapon right? Also, you are doing the full 11 man squad.
Other good alternatives is long fangs outflanked, and some form of primaris marines. SW is unique that we can deliver primaris in a reasonable way.
I have been running (very successfully in my local meta I might add) 3 groups of 10 grey hunters, 2 with plasma guns, 1 with plasma pistol, and a wolf guard battle leader with a combi plasma. They outflank with Krom onto the table. It can be hard to get all 31 in at once, sometimes I will put 20 and Krom in at one place and the other 10 in somewhere else. Sometimes I don't outflank any of it. Really it depends on what else is getting deployed on the table by your opponent.
Having said that, 21 plasma shots at 12", all overcharged and getting reroll 1's, its damn effective and really powerful. And the rest of the bolter fire can be used to fire upon something else at the same time.
On a different note, does anyone else find it very odd that there hasn't been a FAQ for Space Wolves out yet? Seems like other codex's the FAQ came out very quickly. Either things are running exactly like they want them to or Space Wolves are just not as popular anymore? (Perish the thought!)
Possibly. If thats the case I will probably wait before I buy any support knights for my wolves, I would hate to drop that kind of cash on a model only to find out next week that the Rune Priest isn't going to be able to have it fire against drop in targets.
I thought of a list but don't know if it would perform well. I'm trying to take advantage of the 6" inch Heroic Intervention so I would fill as many fighting characters as possible, put them all in a Stormwolf and try to go as near as possible of the enemy lines. In some, a Viking Raiding party !
Here is a list :
Spoiler:
Space Wolves Battalion Detachment
Njal Stormcaller in Runic Terminator Armour
Ragnar Blackmane
5 Blood Claws
5 Grey Hunters
5 Grey Hunters
Stormfang Gunship
Space Wolves Supreme Command Detachment
Arjac Rockfist
Logan Grimnar
Ulrik the Slayer
Space Wolves Vanguard Detachment
Wolf Guard Battle Leader in Terminator Armour with Thunder Hammer and Storm shield, Warlod (Sage of the Wolfkin), The Wulfen Stone
The play would be :
5 Blood Claws + Logan + Ragnar + Ulrik + WGBL + Arjac + Njal in the Stormwolf
Wulfens in the Stormfang
Scout behind enemy lines
Reivers in High orbit
Both flyers rush T1 as near as possible of the enemy lines.
If the Stormwolf gets down, you have 9" threat bubble thanks to your 6" Heroic Intervention.
Ulrik can heal your heroes, you have tons of attacks, rerolling almost everything in the fight phase.
I will try to play this sooner or later.
What do you think of it guys ?
Has anyone come up with a TAC list that doesn't rely on any gimmicks and performs if not super competitively but at least semi-competitively? I don't need to take down knights but I'd like a decent chance against Eldar.
Lists that I come up with seem to be going balls to the wall with full CC options or some "balanced" middle ground that doesn't seem to do anything well (at least on paper).
I just feel the troops to be a tax, I'm not finding an efficient role for them in my lists but I need the CPs and I really want to avoid the Loyal 32 (even tho I have the models for them as well).
Long Fangs seem like a good place to start. With native rerolls to Hit of 1s and the ability to ignore negative to hit modifiers thanks to "Keen Senses", they will put some decent hurt on Eldar.
You will need some mobility so Grey Hunter Squads in Razorbacks with assault cannons are a solid bet. I don't find GHs to be tax, they are one of the best Troop unit available to any MEQ army.
If you are going to use Outflanking/Deep Striking, make sure to include several units. Eldar have a stratagem to shoot incoming units just like we do (only without the -1 to-Hit modifier) so the first unit to arrive each turn will likely get shot to bits.
TWC with stormshields are actually a good take against Eldar. They are fast enough to avoid being kited, their 3++ save is good against all that nasty Eldar firepower. Although they don't hit as hard as Wulfen, Eldar are comparatively fragile meaning if the TWC do make a charge, they will do good damage. Either the jaws will mulch infantry or the riders' weapons will damage tougher targets like tanks.
Karhedron wrote: Long Fangs seem like a good place to start. With native rerolls to Hit of 1s and the ability to ignore negative to hit modifiers thanks to "Keen Senses", they will put some decent hurt on Eldar.
You will need some mobility so Grey Hunter Squads in Razorbacks with assault cannons are a solid bet. I don't find GHs to be tax, they are one of the best Troop unit available to any MEQ army.
If you are going to use Outflanking/Deep Striking, make sure to include several units. Eldar have a stratagem to shoot incoming units just like we do (only without the -1 to-Hit modifier) so the first unit to arrive each turn will likely get shot to bits.
TWC with stormshields are actually a good take against Eldar. They are fast enough to avoid being kited, their 3++ save is good against all that nasty Eldar firepower. Although they don't hit as hard as Wulfen, Eldar are comparatively fragile meaning if the TWC do make a charge, they will do good damage. Either the jaws will mulch infantry or the riders' weapons will damage tougher targets like tanks.
Good tips, thanks.
About the GH in Razorbacks.. would you keep them pretty barebones with maybe one Plasma or take WGPL with combi as well?
Automatically Appended Next Post: This is the best I could come up with. Wolfclaw Wolflord hangs with the GH to give reroll 1s for plasma and TWC run up the field with the other characters. WL with Wulfen stone has six 2+ attacks rerolling ones with TH to really ruin someone's day. And a stratagem to fight again if the day isn't ruined enough.
Long Fangs [9 PL, 209pts] . Long Fang: Lascannon
. Long Fang: Lascannon
. Long Fang: Lascannon
. Long Fang: Lascannon
. Long Fang: Lascannon
. Long Fang Pack Leader: Boltgun and Bolt Pistol, Chainsword
Long Fangs [9 PL, 209pts] . Long Fang: Lascannon
. Long Fang: Lascannon
. Long Fang: Lascannon
. Long Fang: Lascannon
. Long Fang: Lascannon
. Long Fang Pack Leader: Boltgun and Bolt Pistol, Chainsword
Karhedron wrote: Long Fangs seem like a good place to start. With native rerolls to Hit of 1s and the ability to ignore negative to hit modifiers thanks to "Keen Senses", they will put some decent hurt on Eldar.
You will need some mobility so Grey Hunter Squads in Razorbacks with assault cannons are a solid bet. I don't find GHs to be tax, they are one of the best Troop unit available to any MEQ army.
If you are going to use Outflanking/Deep Striking, make sure to include several units. Eldar have a stratagem to shoot incoming units just like we do (only without the -1 to-Hit modifier) so the first unit to arrive each turn will likely get shot to bits.
TWC with stormshields are actually a good take against Eldar. They are fast enough to avoid being kited, their 3++ save is good against all that nasty Eldar firepower. Although they don't hit as hard as Wulfen, Eldar are comparatively fragile meaning if the TWC do make a charge, they will do good damage. Either the jaws will mulch infantry or the riders' weapons will damage tougher targets like tanks.
Good tips, thanks.
About the GH in Razorbacks.. would you keep them pretty barebones with maybe one Plasma or take WGPL with combi as well?
Automatically Appended Next Post: This is the best I could come up with. Wolfclaw Wolflord hangs with the GH to give reroll 1s for plasma and TWC run up the field with the other characters. WL with Wulfen stone has six 2+ attacks rerolling ones with TH to really ruin someone's day. And a stratagem to fight again if the day isn't ruined enough.
Any input welcome.
[spoiler]
++ Battalion Detachment +5CP (Imperium - Space Wolves) [94 PL, 1998pts] ++
+ HQ +
Rune Priest [7 PL, 127pts]: 1. Living Lightning, 2. Tempest's Wrath, Bolt pistol, Jump Packs, Psychic hood, Runic sword
. The Armour of Russ: Relic of The Fang
Wolf Lord [6 PL, 107pts]: Jump Packs, Wolf Claw (Pair)
Wolf Lord [6 PL, 129pts]: Jump Packs, Saga of the Wolfkin, Storm shield, Thunder hammer, Warlord
. The Wulfen Stone: Relic of The Fang
Long Fangs [9 PL, 209pts] . Long Fang: Lascannon
. Long Fang: Lascannon
. Long Fang: Lascannon
. Long Fang: Lascannon
. Long Fang: Lascannon
. Long Fang Pack Leader: Boltgun and Bolt Pistol, Chainsword
Long Fangs [9 PL, 209pts] . Long Fang: Lascannon
. Long Fang: Lascannon
. Long Fang: Lascannon
. Long Fang: Lascannon
. Long Fang: Lascannon
. Long Fang Pack Leader: Boltgun and Bolt Pistol, Chainsword
I like your list but I have a suggestion. Drop the Thunder Hammers on the TWC. Give them all frost swords or frost axes. It synergizes better with their wolf mounts and costs less. Will let you maybe get an additional toy or something. I don't find that TWC are good TH caddies. They seem to fill a more infantry mulching role while still being able to take some on some heavier opponets.
Wulfen are the best TH caddies we have atm. Well.. besides Wolf Lords/WGBL's.
I was very sad when after I bought Dark Imperium and the SW-side of Tooth and Claw to hear that Space Wolves and Primaris don't really go well together...
But nevertheless, I wanted to build a list trying to use the models I have.
Primaris can go exceptionally well with wolves. The outflank strat is particularly good for hellblasters and agressors if you want to play aggressively. Its just what comes in the box doesn't see much benifit from wolves.
Primaris look pretty nice to me. On the hunt hellblasters and aggressors? Aggressors might be less useful due to the shoot twice if they don't move, but hellblasters on the hunt should be pretty awesome.
Our chapter tactic just doesn't suit primaris as well as say, Dark Angels, because our tactics are all melee oriented, and primaris just don't have the best melee units.
Karhedron wrote: Long Fangs seem like a good place to start. With native rerolls to Hit of 1s and the ability to ignore negative to hit modifiers thanks to "Keen Senses", they will put some decent hurt on Eldar.
You will need some mobility so Grey Hunter Squads in Razorbacks with assault cannons are a solid bet. I don't find GHs to be tax, they are one of the best Troop unit available to any MEQ army.
If you are going to use Outflanking/Deep Striking, make sure to include several units. Eldar have a stratagem to shoot incoming units just like we do (only without the -1 to-Hit modifier) so the first unit to arrive each turn will likely get shot to bits.
TWC with stormshields are actually a good take against Eldar. They are fast enough to avoid being kited, their 3++ save is good against all that nasty Eldar firepower. Although they don't hit as hard as Wulfen, Eldar are comparatively fragile meaning if the TWC do make a charge, they will do good damage. Either the jaws will mulch infantry or the riders' weapons will damage tougher targets like tanks.
Grey Hunters in Razorbacks is a bad idea. However, outflanking Grey Hunters and then using a bought Razorback to act as a battle tank is a good idea.
If I have gained any bit of information out of the past 3 pages, it is that we should outflank everything because it is the only thing our codex has going for it.
Wulfen - Outflank, their transports will always die T1
Grey hunters - Outflank, transports stink
Blood claws - Outflank see above
Primaris - Outflank, because it's good
Long fangs - outflank because luls
Scouts - outflank because it is literally all they are good for.
HQ options - TWC, jump pack, or outflank.
So will the average competitive wolf list just be: "Here is a table full of empty transports and some TWC, over there is the rest of my army, which I spent all my CP on to outflank"
gwarsh41 wrote: If I have gained any bit of information out of the past 3 pages, it is that we should outflank everything because it is the only thing our codex has going for it.
Wulfen - Outflank, their transports will always die T1
Grey hunters - Outflank, transports stink
Blood claws - Outflank see above
Primaris - Outflank, because it's good
Long fangs - outflank because luls
Scouts - outflank because it is literally all they are good for.
HQ options - TWC, jump pack, or outflank.
So will the average competitive wolf list just be: "Here is a table full of empty transports and some TWC, over there is the rest of my army, which I spent all my CP on to outflank"
Welcome to warhammer 40k since 5th edition. Where a Space Marine standing on the table is a dead a turn later.
gwarsh41 wrote: If I have gained any bit of information out of the past 3 pages, it is that we should outflank everything because it is the only thing our codex has going for it.
Wulfen - Outflank, their transports will always die T1
Grey hunters - Outflank, transports stink
Blood claws - Outflank see above
Primaris - Outflank, because it's good
Long fangs - outflank because luls
Scouts - outflank because it is literally all they are good for.
HQ options - TWC, jump pack, or outflank.
So will the average competitive wolf list just be: "Here is a table full of empty transports and some TWC, over there is the rest of my army, which I spent all my CP on to outflank"
lolz
But I think you still need some CP left to use the Keen Sense and Wolf Eye on the Long Fangs. And maybe Honor the Chapter on Wulfens. So you need to reserve....... 5CP at least for that.
Yeah, it looks the Space Wolves is a very very CP hungry army. Just like the Deathwatch.
Back to the Topic, I think I would only outflank a strong Wulfen pack and a Long Fang pack. Just stuck those 3 min Troop units in Rhinos and rush it up the field with Rune Priest and other HQ units at its back. That ensure your expensive units to have at least one round chance to what they need to do.
gwarsh41 wrote: If I have gained any bit of information out of the past 3 pages, it is that we should outflank everything because it is the only thing our codex has going for it.
Wulfen - Outflank, their transports will always die T1
Grey hunters - Outflank, transports stink
Blood claws - Outflank see above
Primaris - Outflank, because it's good
Long fangs - outflank because luls
Scouts - outflank because it is literally all they are good for.
HQ options - TWC, jump pack, or outflank.
So will the average competitive wolf list just be: "Here is a table full of empty transports and some TWC, over there is the rest of my army, which I spent all my CP on to outflank"
I mean, GW killed the main thing going for Rhinos (cheap and 2 firing ports) and if Razorbacks didn't need to stay still to get the most out of them they'd only be okay-ish.
Niiai wrote: What do you mean SW and primaris does not go well together? Do any SM and primaris work?
Well the trait works out for the Gravis Captain who doesn't move anywhere otherwise. Then you have the biggest benefit of all, which is Aggressors with the Outflank strategem and actually hitting with their Power Fists the first round of combat.
Reivers like the benefit to hit, but until they actually hit harder they'll have little use.
gwarsh41 wrote: If I have gained any bit of information out of the past 3 pages, it is that we should outflank everything because it is the only thing our codex has going for it.
Wulfen - Outflank, their transports will always die T1
Grey hunters - Outflank, transports stink
Blood claws - Outflank see above
Primaris - Outflank, because it's good
Long fangs - outflank because luls
Scouts - outflank because it is literally all they are good for.
HQ options - TWC, jump pack, or outflank.
So will the average competitive wolf list just be: "Here is a table full of empty transports and some TWC, over there is the rest of my army, which I spent all my CP on to outflank"
I mean, GW killed the main thing going for Rhinos (cheap and 2 firing ports) and if Razorbacks didn't need to stay still to get the most out of them they'd only be okay-ish.
Yeah, wolves are seriously cp hungry. Its why i went with imp guard for cp generation, its not very fluffy but its really needed to help make wolves work as best they can.
I end up spending 4 cp typically before the game starts.
But from a pure wolf pov, if your looking at doing a lot of "on the hunt" outflanking this is what i suggest.
1st look at your army. What units give you the best advantage outflanking vs what ones can be super effective even just moving up the field or inside a transport. An example of this would be grey hunters. Yes outflanking is awsome. But you can get the same effect more or less dropping them in a drop pod. Most can agree that a drop pod is worth about 50-60 pts and is over priced at 85, but if its saving you a cp that gives the cp a cost of about 25 pts. Thats not bad at all.
2nd look at what is going to be left on the field if you do outflank / ds a large portion. Will whats left easily survive a round of t1 shooting assuming you dont get 1st turn? Can you hide enough behind los cover to make it? And in what condition will whats left be in? Its why i like my 3 predators and e whirlwinds combo. That is a lot of t7 with a lot of wounds sitting there that should be fine. I may lose a predator, or a few may take wounds, but i dont see losing everything in 1 turn. And once you get your turn you can pop the stratagem to make then really hard to deal with.
Finally what is there that needs cp to make it super effective in your lists? For me again its my rune priest. The moment i run out of (or drop below 3) my rune priest has a different roll. He switches from support to melee thanks to the ghost wolves psycic power. For this reason i take him with a jump pack so he can rush forward and give some support to anything that needs it come turn 3 (when i normally run out). But if your planning on using that longfang squad every turn with 0 shooting penelties keep that in mind when building the list. If your looking at 7 cp and plan on using the -1 to hit and keen senses strat a lot you wont get past turn 1 with enough cp left to continue working on that. Its for that reason i dropped my longfangs from my list, i cant afford to spend cp on them.
Yeah, wolves are seriously cp hungry. Its why i went with imp guard for cp generation, its not very fluffy but its really needed to help make wolves work as best they can.
If anything its more Fluffy than most Marines fighting beside the Guard. Unless you are taking the 32. If you are taking the 32 its lame. I like to throw some Roughriders in. Sometimes a LeMan Russ. Hellhounds are good also.
The 32? Are you talking just 30 guardsman and 2 officers? If so no, thats not what i have been taking.
At my lowest point lvl i play at (1500) i take a single hq officer and 3 scout sentinals. Officer gets the wl trait for getting cp back and the artifact to get cp back from opponent. He hangs out with my 3 hq's and the tanks while the rest of my army moves forwards and out capturing outer objectives and generally blowing stuff up.
Higher point lvls i take the 3 troop choices with auto cannons, a basilisk, and some heavy weapon mortar teams. I like shell based weapons a lot lol.
At 2000 pts its easy to put a 500 pt batallion of guard and 1500 pts of wolves on the table, and its incredibly effective as well. Almost scary good in my local meta where someone shows up with a knight and realizes they have a serious issue with all the troops stairing at them. Then the wolves come in outflanked.... really good.
Im with azuza here. If you really want SW to shine (or any SM chapter for that matter), IG is needed. Marines are overcosted, but through CP shenanigans we can bring us up to speed. Albeit, i think the IGcp battery will get nerfed in the big FAQ.
If you just want to have fun, well.. bring whatever you like and see how it goes, then adapt to the meta. It’s what i do, and the DG/nurgle and GK/custodes/UM players i play against are currently trying to figure out how to beat me. The worst list i am facing is a list with a UM leviathan and GK leviathan. UM levi is defensive (can fall back and shoot), while the GK levi gets teleported t1 and shoots, then gets its invul save buffed to 3++... and a thunderfire cannon to half the movement of twc or wulfen. If i bring a longship, then the meta will change quickly, due to the short range of leviathans.
Niiai wrote: What do you mean SW and primaris does not go well together? Do any SM and primaris work?
Dark Angels Hellblasters are disgusting.
Raven Guard work well with Primaris. Aggressors striking from the shadows while your Intercessors and Hellblasters sit back and enjoy the enemy shooting being at -1 to-Hit.
Deathwatch with mixed Primaris squads are really good because of the way the special rules are allowed to stack.
Basically if you want to play Primaris competitively, paint them black.
You will need some mobility so Grey Hunter Squads in Razorbacks with assault cannons are a solid bet. I don't find GHs to be tax, they are one of the best Troop unit available to any MEQ army.
About the GH in Razorbacks.. would you keep them pretty barebones with maybe one Plasma or take WGPL with combi as well?
Plasma and WGPL with Combi-plas are good. If you have the points, a plasma pistol on the GHPL and a Power sword on the WGPL are good to have.
I don't think space wolves are bad with Primaris, they're just not good. by that I mean their chapter tactic doesn't partiuclarly help Primaris units eaither way, granted Primaris Units aren't (for non dedicated close combat units) too bad in close combat.
IF True Grit worked on Primaris it would be a completely different story. Could you see primaris units in cc being able to shoot those bolt guns of theirs as if they were pistols? Oh man.... such an easy fix to make those units gain something from space wolves that other faction primaris don't get.
BUT I think this will not happen. GW is trying to tell a story here with the Primaris stuff. All of these different factions in the Imperium work differently. Ultramarines, Black Templars, Salamanders, Blood Angels, Dark Angels, Space Wolves, all of these units have the same units but how they use them has varied wildly from edition to edition. Take the standard Tactical Marine. Ultramarines take them as the standard marine. Black Templars however mix their 'Scouts' in with their standard marines and focus on close combat. Space Wolves make theirs Grey Hunters, which don't have access to longer range heavy weapons but are better at close fire support.
Now Guiliman comes in with these Primaris Marines to boost the depleted forces of the Space Marines. They are bigger, stronger, and have better equipment than a regular marine. But they have not had any time to truly get integrated into these chapters who have had centuries of tradition and doing their own thing in secret so that other chapters don't truly know how they go through these special rites as it was. So of course all Primaris work the same for the most part. They are the same. They are not REALLY Space Wolves or Black Templars or Dark Angels, they are Primaris. I am sure this will change as time go's on but if you think of 40k as a living story with each edition and each codex telling the next part of that story right now we are at the beginning of whatever GW decides to turn the Primaris into.
I don't think they will do anything drastic like turn them to chaos or make any chapter suddenly kick them out. Imagine the backlash if say you were a Dark Angels player and invested into Primaris with your force then next edition GW said "Dark Angels kicked all Primaris out of their chapter so you can't use them with Dark Angels." The backlash would be stupid bad. But you COULD see them in the next edition say "Dark Angels have decided to make a new Wing based on Primaris called the Shield Brothers and they get the bonus of always counting as in cover when outside 12'' range". Something like that could happen easily, and it would help to drive sales of their new toys as well.
Rant Over. One can hope. Until then, Primaris are not bad they just don't really DO anything special one way or another no matter what faction you take with them.
Azuza001 wrote: IF True Grit worked on Primaris it would be a completely different story. Could you see primaris units in cc being able to shoot those bolt guns of theirs as if they were pistols? Oh man.... such an easy fix to make those units gain something from space wolves that other faction primaris don't get.
Azuza001 wrote: IF True Grit worked on Primaris it would be a completely different story. Could you see primaris units in cc being able to shoot those bolt guns of theirs as if they were pistols? Oh man.... such an easy fix to make those units gain something from space wolves that other faction primaris don't get.
True grit does work on Primaris guns.
it costs a CP but for primaris Marines proably definatly worth it in the right situation
Azuza001 wrote: IF True Grit worked on Primaris it would be a completely different story. Could you see primaris units in cc being able to shoot those bolt guns of theirs as if they were pistols? Oh man.... such an easy fix to make those units gain something from space wolves that other faction primaris don't get.
True grit does work on Primaris guns.
Don't forget that the Primaris Sergeant is gonna hit on a 2+ that first round of combat with his Chainsword or Power Sword too. I guess Intercessors get s small amount of mileage out of the trait.
Azuza001 wrote: IF True Grit worked on Primaris it would be a completely different story. Could you see primaris units in cc being able to shoot those bolt guns of theirs as if they were pistols? Oh man.... such an easy fix to make those units gain something from space wolves that other faction primaris don't get.
True grit does work on Primaris guns.
Don't forget that the Primaris Sergeant is gonna hit on a 2+ that first round of combat with his Chainsword or Power Sword too. I guess Intercessors get s small amount of mileage out of the trait.
they'll ALL hit on a 2+ on that trait. it sounds minor but a 5 man squad is gonna have a goodly number of attacks.
Ah, cool. I don't have my book in front of me, for some reason I was think it just said bolters. :p
Thats actually kinda cool. I have been against the True Grit stratagem since it came out back in the old Chapter Approved but with the update I have had 1 case where it came up that it was worth popping the strat with some grey hunters to be sure my target I was in CC with died. (It was a fight vs Genestealers, and I really needed to be sure they were dead before my opponents next turn lol).
Azuza001 wrote: Ah, cool. I don't have my book in front of me, for some reason I was think it just said bolters. :p
Thats actually kinda cool. I have been against the True Grit stratagem since it came out back in the old Chapter Approved but with the update I have had 1 case where it came up that it was worth popping the strat with some grey hunters to be sure my target I was in CC with died. (It was a fight vs Genestealers, and I really needed to be sure they were dead before my opponents next turn lol).
I think it'll be more worth it on Primaris minis simply because of the better stats.
If the plan was to use this strat all the time then yea. I just ment that before it was a 2CP strat now its a 1. At 2 it wasn't worth it, at 1 I think it can be a clutch 'I may need a bit more firepower here to finish the job'. With a large Primaris squad I can see that being pretty surprising for your opponent to find out about really. You charge into them with your Primaris to lock them up, they figure they have it easy now because Primaris are better at shooting that CC, then you pull that strat? Heh. Definatly something to keep in the back of your mind.
Azuza001 wrote: If the plan was to use this strat all the time then yea. I just ment that before it was a 2CP strat now its a 1. At 2 it wasn't worth it, at 1 I think it can be a clutch 'I may need a bit more firepower here to finish the job'. With a large Primaris squad I can see that being pretty surprising for your opponent to find out about really. You charge into them with your Primaris to lock them up, they figure they have it easy now because Primaris are better at shooting that CC, then you pull that strat? Heh. Definatly something to keep in the back of your mind.
agreed, it's NOT a "I win" strat, but it's a great strat to use to put your enemy down faster.
So can someone point me in the direction of the approved units from FW for Space Wolves?
2nd part of the question I have a Storm Eagle and a Fire Raptor, are they approved for SW and If not, how much of an issue would it be if I converted the Storm Eagle into a Storm Wolf or Fang (the Transport option) as long as it is equipped with the same weapon load out?
Let’s talk army composition and list building with a specific focus on figuring out a way to get the most out of our troop choices, specifically Blood Claws and Grey Hunters.
I really like a WGBL with the Wulfen stone near a squad of blood claws. To maximize this buff, I think a 10-man squad is best lead by a WGPL with a power fist and one power fist in the squad. I also like a Wolf Lord leading a squad of 10 Grey Hunters. To maximize his buff, I think a 10-man squad is best lead by a WGPL with a combi-plasma and 2 plasma guns in the squad. Regarding either squad I think taking advantage of the 6” bubble the HQ provides maximizing this is also key. So, getting 2 squads one on either side of the character, or maybe even 3, is the way to go.
Now comes to the difficult part, how they move around the tabletop. We all know the issues with power armour in this edition and let’s not get into that here. For either option I think Rhinos are a waste. 5 wounds later and you’re moving just as fast as they do on foot. Moving 12, advancing and popping smoke is great but this is too dependent on getting first turn. If you lose that one roll off you just sunk 72 points per squad into something that doesn’t work. Because I am focusing on 10 man squads I think the Razorback is out. Which leaves the land raider… moving on… and the Stormwolf. I like the Stormwolf but it is a lot of points. Worth it I think for a bigger blob of blood claws. Easier for bigger games but I think 1000-1500 points it’s hard to fit into a list and not be a one trick pony.
Which leaves cunning of the wolf or foot slogging. I think both are viable but costly. Cunning of the Wolf I think better spent on Wulfen or Aggressors. Foot slogging leaves us vulnerable to the power armour issue, but I want to say is the best way to go but still needs an investment in Wolf Priests to cast storm caller and if you’re playing a gun line also popping cloaked by the storm. But just like the Cunning of the Wolf, this combo is probably better spent using on 2 squads of Wulfen or Thunderwolves charging up the table.
Drop pods, jump packs, and greater threats are the 3 things you missed.
To make rhinos work without you getting 1st turn you need to make your opponent have something more important to shoot at. Stormfangs, razorbacks, predators, wulfen, thunder wolf calvery, these things should soak up fire from an opponent before a rhino is even targeted, but they are expensive and potentially wont hold the opponents attention for long.
Drop pods can work well with 10 man squads, i have had some good success with dropping one on a forward objective and having 10 blood claws pile out. The downside is turn 2 for the drop and it is still a bit expensive. But 2 drop pods with 10 bloodclaws each, with a wolf guard battle leader dropping in with a jump pack on can give you great positioning for turn 3. Also if you outflank some wolfen near there the 12" reroll charge can help.
Finally skyclaws are bloodclaws with jump packs on. Thats always an option. You can deep strike or just jump up the board.
I look at drop pods not as 85 pts but as 60 pts plus 25 pts to save a command point, but i understand your feelings on them. Anytime i bring one in a game my opponents typically go "oh, so your not really serious about this game."
Had a game today vs tyranids. I tried some things differently, ran 2 whirlwinds with the castallian launchers (really prefer Vengence i think), a heavy bolter longfang squad, and tried the dreadnaught approach. 2 venerable dreads with axes and shields, murderfang, bjorn w/ twin laz, and a rune priest and iron priest with the armor of russ.
Iron priests are actually really cool in this setup. He ended up healing 5 wounds on my venerables in the game, and that pistol is no joke. And the 4++ wasnt that bad, buffing them to 2+ with the storm (only got it off once this game) and -1 to hit made up for it i suppose. They still died to smite spam though, zomathropes are nasty pieces of work. Thankfully the whirlwinds did some work vs them this game.
Oh, murderfang was awsome this game. Killed a bunch of genestealers with the help of a 10 man grey hunter squad and the long fangs, killed the broodlord in 1 round when it charged him (silly broodlord, murderfang doesnt mind your hugs), killed a big psycic bug (dont remember its name, it doesnt get played much by tyranid players apparently. It got +1 to casting though) and diced some zomathropes up before they could smite him. Bjorn did great too, did a bunch of wounds to the swarmlord in cc thanks to the swarmlord deciding to fight with nerf swords the first round it charged in. 4 hits on bjorn, rolled 4 1's to wound. I don't think bjorn is worth 250 pts though with the twin laz. Its too much.
And i am still finding success with grey hunter squads in packs of 10 with krom helping out. Krom did more than enough to earn a permanent place in my army. He finished off old one eye after it tore through 20 grey hunters in cc. The grey hunters ended up putting 6 wounds on him through overwatch and cc, but it was krom heroically intervening 6" and getting a round to finish the big bug off. Krom rules!
So I have a 1250 pt game tonight with a buddy at the FLGS. I typically only use single faction armies but I haven't gotten around to painting anything more of my wolves other then all my HQs. I was thinking of possibly taking a patrol detachment of deathwatch vet squad with 4 frag cannons, 5 SS and stormbolters with a watch master for deepstriking nuke shenanigans. I may still go all wolves but this opponent does like to play against painted armies and he happens to fear my DW due to me previously crushing him with them. Here are some sample lists.
Wolf Guard [18 PL, 138pts]: Jump Packs
. Wolf Guard: Chainsword, Storm bolter
. Wolf Guard: Chainsword, Storm bolter
. Wolf Guard: Chainsword, Storm bolter
. Wolf Guard: Chainsword, Storm bolter
. Wolf Guard: Chainsword, Storm bolter
. Wolf Guard Pack Leader: Wolf Claw (Pair)
Wolf Scouts [6 PL, 113pts] . Wolf Guard Pack Leader: Chainsword, Combi-plasma
. Wolf Scout: Boltgun
. Wolf Scout: Boltgun
. Wolf Scout Pack Leader: Chainsword, Plasma pistol
. Wolf Scout with Heavy Weapon: Plasma gun
. Wolf Scout with Melee Weapon: Chainsword, Plasma pistol
Long Fangs [9 PL, 186pts] . Long Fang: Plasma cannon
. Long Fang: Plasma cannon
. Long Fang: Lascannon
. Long Fang: Lascannon
. Long Fang: Heavy bolter
. Long Fang Pack Leader: Boltgun and Bolt Pistol, Chainsword
I like the 2nd list but your long fangs dont have any sort of ablative wounds to protect them. You are going to feel every loss there.
Having said that i think your first list has a better chance. Whats the game plan? Are you outflanking anything? Do you plan on running the wulfen and 2 hq's up the field using the -1 to hit strat a lot?
Azuza001 wrote: I like the 2nd list but your long fangs dont have any sort of ablative wounds to protect them. You are going to feel every loss there.
Having said that i think your first list has a better chance. Whats the game plan? Are you outflanking anything? Do you plan on running the wulfen and 2 hq's up the field using the -1 to hit strat a lot?
First off, my FLGS doesn't use the beta rules so I can deep strike first turn if I need to. This opponent prefers using Predators with HQ supports, and scouts to push DS further out.
For the first list I planned on moving the bloodclaws, wulfen and priests up the field together and using the -1 spell on whatever I don't want hurting them too bad. The storm shields should mitigate some of the High AP weapon shots and let them make it to CC. Then I will deepstrike the Vets and watch master into shooty shooty range and blast apart or maim what need to die. This could change if I go second.
The second list is going to outflank the wolf priest, wulfen and scouts together most likely turn 2 and preferably behind cover so they will survive if they fail the charge. The scouts will provide plasma fire support for the wulfen and the priest will be looking to eat a weak unit to get his saga going and boost the wulfen's attack numbers. The long fangs are only allowed 5 long fangs 1 pack leader and 1 WGPL. at most I could get 2 more wounds with a terminator WGPL. Didn't want to spend the points on him. The HB is there for the hellfire strat. JPWG and priest will be flying up the field trying to take out any chaff ie: the scouts to allow the outflanking units to be closer to his main gunline. All of the BC will be running up the field hoping to survive until the charge.
Edit:
Perhaps for the first list I could risk some missed shots and take a watch captain instead and also take a JPWL and give him the wulfen stone, saga of wolfkin, so that he can get right to eating units. Id have to move some points around. Thinking maybe dual wolf claws to save points and focus him on clearing T5 and lower to get his saga going quickly
KnightScion wrote: So can someone point me in the direction of the approved units from FW for Space Wolves?
2nd part of the question I have a Storm Eagle and a Fire Raptor, are they approved for SW and If not, how much of an issue would it be if I converted the Storm Eagle into a Storm Wolf or Fang (the Transport option) as long as it is equipped with the same weapon load out?
FWFAQ let SW get access to everything. Only Legion of the damned and GK are limited at the moment. Sometimes the codex FAQ has additional restrictions, so wait for that to drop before you blow FW bucks.
Both of those fliers are approved for SW, only thing that is unknown is if Wulfen can travel in FW transports. Currently the codex stuff states if they can or cannot. The FW stuff doesn't do either, so you can and cannot take wulfen in the storm eagle. I've been wanting a spartan for a wulfen bomb, but if they cannot get in it, I wont get it.
Azuza001 wrote: I like the 2nd list but your long fangs dont have any sort of ablative wounds to protect them. You are going to feel every loss there.
Having said that i think your first list has a better chance. Whats the game plan? Are you outflanking anything? Do you plan on running the wulfen and 2 hq's up the field using the -1 to hit strat a lot?
First off, my FLGS doesn't use the beta rules so I can deep strike first turn if I need to. This opponent prefers using Predators with HQ supports, and scouts to push DS further out.
For the first list I planned on moving the bloodclaws, wulfen and priests up the field together and using the -1 spell on whatever I don't want hurting them too bad. The storm shields should mitigate some of the High AP weapon shots and let them make it to CC. Then I will deepstrike the Vets and watch master into shooty shooty range and blast apart or maim what need to die. This could change if I go second.
The second list is going to outflank the wolf priest, wulfen and scouts together most likely turn 2 and preferably behind cover so they will survive if they fail the charge. The scouts will provide plasma fire support for the wulfen and the priest will be looking to eat a weak unit to get his saga going and boost the wulfen's attack numbers. The long fangs are only allowed 5 long fangs 1 pack leader and 1 WGPL. at most I could get 2 more wounds with a terminator WGPL. Didn't want to spend the points on him. The HB is there for the hellfire strat. JPWG and priest will be flying up the field trying to take out any chaff ie: the scouts to allow the outflanking units to be closer to his main gunline. All of the BC will be running up the field hoping to survive until the charge.
Edit:
Perhaps for the first list I could risk some missed shots and take a watch captain instead and also take a JPWL and give him the wulfen stone, saga of wolfkin, so that he can get right to eating units. Id have to move some points around. Thinking maybe dual wolf claws to save points and focus him on clearing T5 and lower to get his saga going quickly
Not using beta rules will help that kind of list for sure. As for the long fangs how i run them is 4 heavy weapons, 2 regular extra wounds, and a wgpl with storm shield. He makes 1 of those 3++ saves and he is worth his points. I have had games where he tanked 10 shots before going down, i find him always worth it.
So I got another game in yesterday making it my second with the new codex. It was 1250 pts against an ultramarines opponent with lots of armor. I made som deployment errors and even with the +1 to go first I had to go second and was unable to seize. Mission was big guns never tire and dawn of war deployment. Here is the list I took.
Long Fangs [13 PL, 207pts] . Long Fang: Plasma cannon
. Long Fang: Plasma cannon
. Long Fang: Lascannon
. Long Fang: Lascannon
. Long Fang: Heavy bolter
. Long Fang Pack Leader: Boltgun and Bolt Pistol, Chainsword
. Wolf Guard Pack Leader: Storm bolter, Storm shield
My opponent had 2 units of scouts, 1 tac squad, 3 razorback with asscannon, stormtalon gunship, captain, Lt and venerable rifleman dread, and 3 bikes. The board we played on had a decent amount of cover in the way of 3 buildings a couple trenches, and 4 of those GW made tree copses. We played these as area terrain and the first floor of building could not be shot thru.
What did I learn:
Long fangs should be hidden out of LOS no matter what! Turn 1 they were wiped to the man. Only thing I can say is my opponent used every last gun to shoot them out of their cover which saved the rest of my army. Next time I'll hide them and then on my turn move them and use keen senses.
using cover is key especially against a gunline army like the ultramarines that won't come to you. I was able to get my footslogging bloodclaws into combat turn 2 with some excellent rolls and wulfen outflanking to buff them with reroll charge.
The wolf lord with claws, wulfen stone and wolfkin saga is amazing. He has 7 attacks and never missed do to his innate reroll 1s 2+ to hit and reroll all failed wounds. I got saga off turn 2 as soon as he made contact with a scout unit and wiped them.
The lord giving the wulfen and extra attack is awesome 4 hammer wulfen in combat with a dread woth 4 attacks each is overkill for sure I believe they did 21 wounds to him! He obvisously blew up killing one lol but worth it. Wulfen are still just sooo good.
The Rune priest did amazing work with smite and lightning. He dealt out 11 mortal wounds over 3 turns . He Periled once and the wolfpriest healed him of 2 wounds lol. Most of which were to his flyer. The stat the gives the -1 tobhit within 6 is expensive but worth it. It got all my bloodclaws across the table safely.
Overall I like this list. I kicked my opponents butt even though he shot some of my stuff to pieces. What lived hurt him bad. my warlord died my other characters lived and I one the game on objectives and linebreaker 10-4. I think I could play this list much better next time watching my deployment more carefully. the long fangs would've made short work of all his armor.
Awsome, good to hear. I do like the idea of using the warlord trait to get wulfen up on attacks. And yeah, wulfen with thunder hammers and storm shields are amazing. 3++/5+++ and get to attack again if killed in cc? There is a reason they get targeted so badly whenever they hit the table.
Azuza001 wrote: Awsome, good to hear. I do like the idea of using the warlord trait to get wulfen up on attacks. And yeah, wulfen with thunder hammers and storm shields are amazing. 3++/5+++ and get to attack again if killed in cc? There is a reason they get targeted so badly whenever they hit the table.
Yeah with the index I always used a wolf priest to buff the wulfen to maximize hits. Now I think I'd rather super charge the lord by eating a infantry or chaff unit and then buff them with an extra attack and reroll 1s. I feel like that is better especially now that they get our +1 to hit chapter trait. So they get extra attacks and only miss on 2s. So 5 in 6 chance of hitting is not bad in my book. Plus when other units catch up they benefit from the trait also. I'm going to drop the wolf priest and put in another Rune priest.
Azuza001 wrote: Awsome, good to hear. I do like the idea of using the warlord trait to get wulfen up on attacks. And yeah, wulfen with thunder hammers and storm shields are amazing. 3++/5+++ and get to attack again if killed in cc? There is a reason they get targeted so badly whenever they hit the table.
Yeah with the index I always used a wolf priest to buff the wulfen to maximize hits. Now I think I'd rather super charge the lord by eating a infantry or chaff unit and then buff them with an extra attack and reroll 1s. I feel like that is better especially now that they get our +1 to hit chapter trait. So they get extra attacks and only miss on 2s. So 5 in 6 chance of hitting is not bad in my book. Plus when other units catch up they benefit from the trait also. I'm going to drop the wolf priest and put in another Rune priest.
What would be your favored ratio of Hammers in the Wulfen unit though? Obviously loading ALL with the TH/SS would be expensive.
Depends on the point value of the game I'm playing. I took 4 hammers yesterday in a 5 man squad. I'm a larger game I'd take 10 man squad with 5 hammers and the rest frost claws. I like the claws because S6 is still nothing to sneeze at in the large quantities of attacks they will get being buffed by the lord. And unlike hammers and axes they get to reroll all failed wounds. I feel like that is an excellent trade over the higher Strength of the other two. If I were thinking better yesterday I'd have used my consolidate move into the tac squad with the wulfen as an opportunity to pop the attack again strategem. But alas I forgot.
Azuza001 wrote: IF True Grit worked on Primaris it would be a completely different story. Could you see primaris units in cc being able to shoot those bolt guns of theirs as if they were pistols? Oh man.... such an easy fix to make those units gain something from space wolves that other faction primaris don't get.
True grit does work on Primaris guns.
it costs a CP but for primaris Marines proably definatly worth it in the right situation
My Slaaneshi Daemonkin lost against my friend’s SWs in an ITC game. A True Grit volley by her Intercessors was instrumental in her 19-18 win as it denied me an objective and finished off a unit. Grey Hunters wouldn’t even have been alive to use their bolters
TheunlikelyGamer wrote: Depends on the point value of the game I'm playing. I took 4 hammers yesterday in a 5 man squad. I'm a larger game I'd take 10 man squad with 5 hammers and the rest frost claws. I like the claws because S6 is still nothing to sneeze at in the large quantities of attacks they will get being buffed by the lord. And unlike hammers and axes they get to reroll all failed wounds. I feel like that is an excellent trade over the higher Strength of the other two. If I were thinking better yesterday I'd have used my consolidate move into the tac squad with the wulfen as an opportunity to pop the attack again strategem. But alas I forgot.
I would take some Axes instead of the claws, it is only 2pts more expensive, and have +1A on the charge. If you run into something big, or something have FnP, the Axe will do mote damage than the claws, due to higher strength and D3 dmg.
Thus, my idea of the Wulfen loadout is: no less than 50% members with TH/SS (e.g., 3 guys w TH/SS in a pack of 5 or pack of 6, 4 TH/SS in a pack of 7 or 8, and so on). Leader with mandatory Claws, rest guys are carrying Axes.
TheunlikelyGamer wrote: Depends on the point value of the game I'm playing. I took 4 hammers yesterday in a 5 man squad. I'm a larger game I'd take 10 man squad with 5 hammers and the rest frost claws. I like the claws because S6 is still nothing to sneeze at in the large quantities of attacks they will get being buffed by the lord. And unlike hammers and axes they get to reroll all failed wounds. I feel like that is an excellent trade over the higher Strength of the other two. If I were thinking better yesterday I'd have used my consolidate move into the tac squad with the wulfen as an opportunity to pop the attack again strategem. But alas I forgot.
I would take some Axes instead of the claws, it is only 2pts more expensive, and have +1A on the charge. If you run into something big, or something have FnP, the Axe will do mote damage than the claws, due to higher strength and D3 dmg.
Thus, my idea of the Wulfen loadout is: no less than 50% members with TH/SS (e.g., 3 guys w TH/SS in a pack of 5 or pack of 6, 4 TH/SS in a pack of 7 or 8, and so on). Leader with mandatory Claws, rest guys are carrying Axes.
This seems right to me. SW have so many other ways to kill infantry effectively, I think Wulfen are better tooled out to kill the big stuff.
TheunlikelyGamer wrote: Depends on the point value of the game I'm playing. I took 4 hammers yesterday in a 5 man squad. I'm a larger game I'd take 10 man squad with 5 hammers and the rest frost claws. I like the claws because S6 is still nothing to sneeze at in the large quantities of attacks they will get being buffed by the lord. And unlike hammers and axes they get to reroll all failed wounds. I feel like that is an excellent trade over the higher Strength of the other two. If I were thinking better yesterday I'd have used my consolidate move into the tac squad with the wulfen as an opportunity to pop the attack again strategem. But alas I forgot.
I would take some Axes instead of the claws, it is only 2pts more expensive, and have +1A on the charge. If you run into something big, or something have FnP, the Axe will do mote damage than the claws, due to higher strength and D3 dmg.
Thus, my idea of the Wulfen loadout is: no less than 50% members with TH/SS (e.g., 3 guys w TH/SS in a pack of 5 or pack of 6, 4 TH/SS in a pack of 7 or 8, and so on). Leader with mandatory Claws, rest guys are carrying Axes.
This seems right to me. SW have so many other ways to kill infantry effectively, I think Wulfen are better tooled out to kill the big stuff.
I tend to agree, my over all feeling is GW's trying to make TWC our "infantry killers" and wulfen our "big unit killers"
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: TWC have a decent amount of attacks to help handle slightly bigger models, though it is obviously not their strength.
sure but thsoe decent amount of attacks would proably play better as something you'd toss at a unit of infantry, a squad of TWC kitted for hunting infantry may be pretty useful, the wolves attacks have a built in stat line so I'm thinking best to plan around the wolves attacks for what your hitting
From what I can tell, TWC have a massive weakness when infantry hunting, and that is ruins with multiple floors. My local tournament scene features a fair amount of ruins, and that would seem to really hurt TWC competitively. Bikes aren't very common in my area for the same reason. Believe me, I want TWC to be good, and I might just run some anyway, as some infantry hordes simply can't just hide in buildings all game long.
Yeah those Alaitoc Rangers are so EASY to shoot down. If your whole vanguard consists of TWC then ruins are a legit problem. We have a lot of ruins and multi level terrain on our tables too.
Weazel wrote: Yeah those Alaitoc Rangers are so EASY to shoot down. If your whole vanguard consists of TWC then ruins are a legit problem. We have a lot of ruins and multi level terrain on our tables too.
We....literally have a Stratagem to ignore those hit penalties...
Weazel wrote: Yeah those Alaitoc Rangers are so EASY to shoot down. If your whole vanguard consists of TWC then ruins are a legit problem. We have a lot of ruins and multi level terrain on our tables too.
We....literally have a Stratagem to ignore those hit penalties...
True that, but I believe they have 3+ or even 2+ cover saves.
Generally my TWC is one TH/SS, one Bolter/SS and one with paired Wolf Claws.
The unit usually dies to smite before it does more than a Bolter shell or two but that is attention diverted away from my fielded Wulfen and Outflanking Wulfen.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Does Keen Senses work on combo-weapons?
How much mileage are people getting out of Lone Wolf? I can see it being decent on a Cyclone WGPL who’s gradually buried his gunners over several turns, but AFAICT if you use it on someone who’s just survived a medium to large unit wipe then they’re just going to run away from morale?
Long fangs in cover have been getting great use out of it from me. It's not a stratagem you can plan for at all though, as it is to random. Giving a model with a big gun re-roll all hits and all wounds is very, very useful.
Also great if you happen to have it pop on some troops. Now you have an obsec character. My first 2 games I got to use it, my most recent one it never came up as most of my armies deaths were wulfen and TWC.
I joined an event on the weekend when new codex formally released, and 30min after I got my 8th edition SW codex . Just got a breath from real day life to finish this sharing about my experience of the new Space Wolves. Do a mini writing Battle Report of the games. Sorry for not having time to publish this sharing a little earlier, the real life work is tough.
The event comprised three game in the campaign day. 1500pts list, no LoW allowed. Here is my list:
Spoiler:
Battalion HQ:
Rune Priest: Runic Axe, Bolt Pistol, Jumppack, Armor of Russ
Wolf Guard Battle Leader: Powerfist, Stormshield, Thurnder Wolf Mount
Vanguard Detachment HQ Bjorn the Fell-handed: Hell-frost Cannon and True Claw
Elite Venerable Dread: Hell-frost Cannon and DCCW Wulfen Dread: Axe and Shield
Wulfen: 6 men, 3 TH/SS, 2 Axes, Pack Leader w Frost Claws
Honestly, the army does quite well in an "friendly competitive" environment (organizer calls for bringing "competitive but friendly" army to the campaign). I ended up in winning two games and losing one. The army is fun to play imo at the current stage. Despite all my games ended up in "almost tabling opponent or be tabled", the games process are not one-sided, except the 2nd game where I run into a Dark Eldar with 3 Flyers, 3 Ravagers 2 Venoms and 1 Raider.
Here is some details for the game
Game 1: Werewolves (SW) VS Vampires (BA)
Spoiler:
His list is something like the following:
Battalion HQ: Captain Slamguinius
Curbulo
Librarian with Jumppack
Troops 3 x 5men Scouts
Vanguard HQ: Lemartes
Elite Death Company: 10men, Powersword and Chain Sword
Death Company: 10men, Powersword and Chain Sword
Death Company Dreadnought
Transport Razorback w THB
Razorback w TAC
Deployment type and Map: short table edge, long march to meet in the centre. Moderate terrain in the centre, ruined industrial facilities, there are two corridors between terrains.
Psychic Power for the Space Wolves I chose the Living Lightning and Fury of the Wolf Spirit, his Librarian has Shield of Sanguinius and Unleash Rage
BA got 1st turn despite SW finished deployed first.
Game started with his Scouts, Razorbacks and Dreads moves towards me while all Jumppack guys are in Deep strike reserve, his 1st turn shooting does no effect. My turn I disembarked the Blood Claw supported by Venerable Dread to confront his one 5 men scout and DC Dread looming at my right flank, with some luck from the Helfrost cannon and plasma shot, and the Powerfist swings, I destroyed both the DC Dread and the Scout, and seized the objective which was claimed by that infiltrated scout. The rest army rush onwards through the left corridor towards the BA deployment, with the Rhino carrying 2 GH packs rushing at the front, with advance rolls it is close to the enemy deployment zone now, followed by the Wulfen Dread, Jumppack RP, and WGBL, Bjorn covering the rear on my left flank.
Round 2 sees all his DS units coming into my back line, behind Bjorn, I paid 2CP to let Bjorn intercept because he is near the RP, shot on the Librarian who are equally closest with the Captain Slamguinius but dealt only 2W. Psychic Phase his Librarian casted Unleash Rage and Shield of Sanguinius. Later he successfully charged the Captain Slam and one squad of Death Company into Bjorn and wolf Venerable Dreads respectively. His Captain Slamguinius slammed Bjorn in one round , while his DC rolls amazing charge range getting into both my Ven Dread and WGBL, dealting a total of 7 unsaved wounds to the Dread, and put 3 unsaved wound on WGBL, in reply, the Dread and WGBL killed like 4-5 DC.
In to my turn, Wulfens comes in, the Wulfen Dread, and Rune Priest turns back. Both the Grey Hunters disembarked from the Rhino, one marched towards the BA scout and one towards his midfield Razorback and Curbulo. Psychic Phase my Rune Priest smited 1 DC but Living Lightning got denied. I charged the Wulfen Dread into his Captain Slam and the outflank Wulfen into both his Captain Slam and Librarian, killing them both, and his “only in death does duty end” on the Captain dealt 3 dmg on the Wulfen Dread and kills one Wulfen. The Wulfen Dread consolidate into the DC and got stabbed with PS, losing another wound. I also charged the two squad into Curbulo and Scout, inflict damages but failed to wipe any of them. His rest DC in combat stabbed at the Ven Dread, inflict one AP-3 wound, and miracle happened I saved it.
Third turn his Razorback shoot at my GH squad looming down at the BA Scouts killing 3. His second squad of DC dropped in last turn move in and charged into the Ven Dread and WGBL together with Lemartes, with Curbulo who retreated from combat standing nearby they get +1 Str, but little luck is on my side, Ven Dread saved all the wounds again hanging on with its last wound for 3 rounds of combat. On the other hand, the WGBL and Wulfen Dread got stabbed dead.
After that the BA’s momentum is basically gone, and SW make the mop up, the Rune Priest casted the fury of the wolf spirit to get 6 additional attacks and smited 3 DC. The Wulfen and Rune Priest charged into the rest DC and Lemarte to kill them all. Curbulo got caught by the GH and dead to the hail of bolter shot followed by Powerfist swings. And my other GH squad charged and killed his right flank depleted scout before being shot dead by his last scout squad on his back field objective. The game ends at Turn 5 with score 8-4 for the SW, and what is left for the BA after the brutal fight between the two close combat army are 2 heavily wounded RB and one healthy Scout. For the SW what is left are 4 Wulfens, the hero Ven Dread, Rune Priest, 2 wounded Rhinos, 1 depleted GH pack and healthy BC pack.
After game thought That was a brutal fight between the two. And although everyone is saying going first is very decisive, but it is not in every case, at least for a game between 2 close combat armies is not that important. The real important issue is who can charge his killy unit into enemy soft spot and emerge victor more quickly.
Anyway, luck plays an important part, I talked to my opponent after the game, we both agree that the Ven Dread hold up against 20 DC for 3 rounds bought me enough time to kill his characters and clearing the DC. TBH, the Dread holding that long with 1 wound left is just unbelievable, for both him and me .
Game 2: Viking wolves (SW) VS Evil Elves (DE)
Spoiler:
His list is something like below, I don't know what DE unit / weapon exactly name, might be errors, sorry :
Battalion: HQ: Archon
Archon
Troops Kabalite Warriors, 5men 1 blaster
Kabalite Warriors, 5men 1 blaster
Kabalite Warriors, 10men 2 blaster (? cannot recall certain on this loadout)
Heavy Support Ravagers
Ravagers
Ravagers
(Note, can't remember the exact weapons loadout on these gunships, they each has three heavy firepower guns sure, but can't recall the exact mixing of weapons, some Dark lances and some DIsintegrator Cannons?)
Transports 2 Venoms
1 Raider
Psychic power: The rune Priest grab the Storm Caller and Fury of the Wolf Spirit.
Pre-game thought Deployment type is the Search and Destroy, moderate terrains, the middle large ruins the size of around 12" x 8" x 8" cannot be walk through without climbing over the top. While 4 other large pieces also have more than one storeys. From there I already know that I am in huge huge trouble, because I only have one HQ unit that can fly, and most of my combat force being Dreadnoughts means my oppoenent can easily avoid them by driving his gun boats onto the 2nd floor of terrains when I get close. The Dark Eldar also pack a tremedous amount of Str 8 AP-4 long range weapons so my vehicles survival chances are really low as they are all T7 Sv3+ except Bjorn being T8, and my shooting has nothing over 24". This would be one of the worst match up I could ever imagined for the 8th 40K games. Nevertheless, if I can snatch the first turn, rush up, pop smoke for every vehicles that can do, and cast the Storm Caller and use the Cloak by the Storm, I might still stand a chance. However:
Dark Eldar rolled high and get the 1st turn despite Space Wolves finished deploy first
In the 1st turn the Dark Eldar moved their flyers up to the bottle neck location between two high-rise terrains, thus should they failed to destroy their intented target, the flyers' bases would still blocking my Dreads, WGBL on Thurnderwolf mount and Rhinos carrying the BC and GH from passing through this bottleneck to close the distance towards his skimmer gunboats in his deployment zone in the 1st turn. Shooting is a display of Dark Eldar firepower, which sees my Wulfen Dread and two rhinos goes down under the flyers' strafing run and the firepower from those gunboats, the Ven Dread being half dead, and 8 out of the 16 Power Armor guys fallen out of the destroyed transports got killed by the rest Disintegrator Cannons not firing at the vehicles, the Splinter Cannon on Venom and Kabalite Warrior shooting out of their own skimmer Transports.
After that I know I have already lost, but as SW, being stubbron I decided to fight on until being tabled. My GH moves pass the Flyers aiming their melta gun at the flyer, the BC moves towards the big LoS blocking ruin to go around the blockade flyers and seek cover for later chances. Everyone else moves only 5" before being stopped by the flyers' bases , and Bjorn ready his cannon and HF. Psychic Phase, I smited the Bomber, causing 2 MW, but failed the Storm Caller, I then used the Cloak of Storm Stratagem but is also denied by his "anti stratagem stratagem" and he rolled a , so I just paid 3 CPs to drag his 3 CPs and nothing else. Shooting I played the keen senses stratagem on one GH which is closet to the flyer to let the melta and grenade hit on 3s, and shoot guns / flamers and throw every grenade I can into Bomber, but only able to reduce it down to 6 wounds remaining. What was impressive is Bjorn and the Ven Dread both rolled a 4 which hits the flyer, but both rolled a 2 to wound, using a stratagem to reroll the Bjorn's wound rolls and it comes out with a Rune Priest charged into the Bomber, taking 2 wounds in overwatch and only deals 1 wound with his runic axe to the flyer.
Second turn DE started the mopping up. Raider and 1 Venom spread out to avoid my Wulfen coming in to the place too close to the Ravagers. Flyers fly over and keep shooting, Basically after the DE 2nd turn shooting I only have WGPL that was in the BC squad, RP, WGBL and Bjorn with 1 wound left still standing on the table while DE still have everything functional except his bomber being degraded. Into my turn the WGBL advances hide himself behind one LoS blocking building near the board edge so only one Ravager can see him, Bjorn knowing he won't last long so go seek his own saga and try to chase and shoot the bomber not that far away from him, but rolled another 2 for the wound roll after hitting the flyer with Helfrost Cannon. Rune Priest jump on a high-rise terrain to confront the Venom sitting on Objective, but only dealt 5 wounds between smite and close combat while taking another wound in overwatch. Wulfens comes in but failed the 9" charge against the nearest Venom.
As you all might expected, in the end I got tabled, by the upper half of Turn 4. What happened between T2 and T4 can be briefed as follows: The Rune Priest, got shot by a hail of Splinter Rifle fire and eventually failed one save and dead. The Wulfens of course got shot to pieces by the flyers, Venoms and Disintegrator Cannon from the Ravager over 2 rounds of shooting. Bjorn, taking the chances when all those firepowers being distracted to the Wulfens, smashed the Venom that escaped from the Rune Priest, before he himself got a "heart shot" by a Dark Lance. The WGBL, charged into a Ravager to seek revenge for his fellow wolves, single handly destroyed that gun boat, but resulting explosion cut his saga short.
After-game thought It was quite a brutal fight, some problem of the Space Wolves unique units are exposed, lack of the “fly” ability is a really serious one, as they are mostly combat that need to get into base to base contact with the enemy, so they are really restricted by the terrain and can easily be blockaded from their route of advancing / charging. So basically, I think taking more Jumppack Wolf Guard, Long Fangs and Wulfens and bring fewer TWCs and Dreads would be an essential move to make the army more playable. Moreover, the Wulfen Dread seems a bit disappointing in both the two games, they do not soak up that many firepower as I expected before falling. In this game, a single Ravager is enough to successfully put it down.
Going first is really important in this game. After talked to my opponent, we agree that Space Wolves not getting the first turn decided the result of this game. Had the Space Wolves got the first move, not only the wolves might get a significant amount of buff in the survivability against the DE shooting through popping smoke, and psychic power, but also would allow those Rhinos and Dreadnoughts and WGBL to break through that terrain bottle neck which is just around 10” in front of them, instead being cornered by the bases of the flyers. But whatever, on the flip side of the coin, with this disastrous tragedy I myself have completed “my own saga” of failing to grab the “going first” on every games of 8th edition 40k I played after the implementation of the rolling off to decide first turn.
Game 3: Sons of Russ (SW) VS Sons of Mortarion (DG)
Spoiler:
His list is something like below:
Flying Daemon Prince
Chaos Sorcerer
Plague Marines, 5 men, 2 Blight Launcher
Plague Marines, 5 men, 2 Blight Launcher
Plague Marines, 5 men, 2 Blight Launcher
Plague Marines, 5 men, 2 Blight Launcher
Myphitic Blight-Hauler, Multi-melta and missile laucher
Foetid Bloat-Drone, meat-grinder weapon
Foetid Bloat-Drone, meat-grinder weapon
Foetid Bloat-Drone, meat-grinder weapon
Plagueburst Crawler, Mortar and two entropy cannons
Plagueburst Crawler, Mortar and two entropy cannons
Psychic Power DG: Plague Wind, Miasma Pestilence, smite (I forgot the rest of the power, as far as I can remember only these three powers does something meaningful, sorry)
SW: Fury of the Wolf Spirits, Living Lightning, Smite
Pre-game thought Unlike the other two armies I have fought against, this is a mix of close combat and shooting army, imo, it is a well-organized "combined arms force", it can unleash a devastating salvo should the rolls been hot, and can dealt a "not to be overlooked blow" in close combat while also has the resilience to tank the damages. In fact, this army just tabled another Space Wolves army (who focused on Wulfen and Primaris models) in the last game, so it is surely not an army that to be taken lightly.
The deployment type is Frontline-Assault (the deploying along long table edge, arrow-head pattern into the center). The terrain setup is nice for both side to maneuver, as the high-rise ruins are placed more to the table edge, the center ground is relatively open, with one large piece of terrain the height of around 1.5 Dreadnoughts but have slopes extending in all directions from the center high-points, so it block certain LoS but would not impeded movement for anything over it. One piece of high-rise “impassible” ruins to my extreme left. While other terrains near the center are low-rise, looks like for cover save only, so we agreed that Rhinos, Dreads and Cavalry all can move through. Imo it is a terrain setup that can be good for both side, while I can rush up with less obstacles, my opponent can also have his gun line shoot at me without moving, this could be important for his two PBC, which are the units I have concerns about before the game commence.
My opponent deployed his gun line, as expected his PBC, MBH and Plague Marines are mostly surround the DP at the middle, to gain the reroll hit roll of 1, while the 3 Bloated Drones spread out on center and both flanks. I deployed more concentrated on the center to my right, where large open ground exists, and my army mainly looming down at his left flank, Wulfen of course goes outflanking again.
Though the Space Wolves finished deploying first and rolls higher than DG in the roll off, but my opponent then rolled a and seize the initiative. Hence, my own saga of “always going last” continues, till the moment.
Turn 1 the DG moves the three Bloated-Drones up, closing the distance but eventually failed the attempted charge, he casted Miasma of Pestilence on the central Bloated Drone, and smite the Rhino inflicting 1 MW. His shooting is much more successful, killing the wounded Rhino, and a total of 3 GH falling out of the transport, and put 3 wounds on the Wulfen Dread. On to my turn, I moved everything up, slightly swing to the right. The Blood Claws disembarked from their Rhino are now only 8”away from his left flank Drone, shooting and combat attacks after the successful charge put a total of 4 wounds on it. Bjorn stands between my center and right flank, but failed to charge the nearest Plague Marines. One GH pack, Venerable Dread, Rune Priest, WGBL all shoot and charge into the central Drone, Wulfen Dread and Bjorn failed the charge. Despite facing a hell of close combat attacks, his psychic buff and a few higher than average 5++/5+++ rolls kept the Bloated Drone survived with 1 wound left.
Second turn saw two big mistake for the DG, he spread out the his Plague Marine to try to shoot at my Wulfen Dread and capture the objective to gain the turn by turn VP which did loosen the bubble warp of his Daemon Prince. His psychic phase is a bust, only got one MW on the GH pack in combat with the Bloated Drone and everything else failed or got denied by my Rune Priest. His shooting took down the Wulfen Dread, and the GH that is not in combat, before he made the second mistake – Charge the 3rd Bloated Drone into both my Venerable Dread and Rune Priest, which putting it dangerously close to Bjorn, so Bjorn Heroic Intervention into the combat to kill that Drone which just charged into the mess. His other Drone is also got killed by the WGBL, but the two resulting explosion killed the Rune Priest giving him Slay the Warlord. However, now Bjorn is only 8” away from the hole in the Plague Marine battleline which led to his Daemon Prince, ready to craft a new Saga.
Come to my turn, Utilizing the Death Guard mistake, Bjorn moved into the hole shot at the Plague Marines nearby but failed to kill anyone, he then charged the Daemon Prince, dealt 4 unsaved wound resulting in 18dmg, no Nurgle’s resilient can hope to block this brutality so the Daemon Prince decided to go back into the warp. Other units also did very well, Wulfen came in from behind and charged into one of the PBC in his backline, reduce it down to its last 3 wounds. The Venerable Dreadnought charged into the MBH reducing it down to less than half wounds left and took one back by the bite of the MBH’s maw. WGBL charged into the last Bloated Drone locked in combat with the Blood Claw Packs from previous turn, the combined might of the three “leaders” dealt another 5 wounds on the drone before the last two models of the Blood Claw pack are dragged into the meat grinder of the Nurgle’s floating daemon machine.
Turn 3 the Death Guard start to drop their shooting efficiency with the loss of Daemon Prince, the two squads of Plague Marines which haven’t been dragged into combat shoot at the Grey Hunter Squad, all 4 Blight Launchers are just enough to take down the last two guys standing. Sorcerer smited the wulfen before the PBC not got charged shoot at them as well, only killing one TH/SS guy. Into my turn, Bjorn depleted one squad of Plague Marine in shooting and charged into another killing all of them. The Wulfen charged into the healthy PBC and killed it with one round of combat. The Venerable Dread tried to charge the MBH retreated from it but the MBH rolled 6s after 6s for overwatch of both its missile launcher and MM, killing the Dread in overwatch! Meanwhile, the Powerfist of the WGBL swings into the rotted drone it was fighting, exploding it but the sprayed poisons choked the SW hero dead.
At the start of turn 4 what was left on the battle for Space Wolves was only Bjorn, and the Wulfen at 5 men strong, confronting 2 depleted squad of Plague marines, a heavily wounded PBC, MBH and Sorcerer. However, that was the last moment the Death Guard could hope for victory, the Death Guard shoot at Bjorn with one PM squad and MBH, doing nothing, Sorcerer jinx the Wulfen and only get one MW through, the shooting from Sorcerer, PM and PBC killed that great axe wielding Wulfen. Come to my turn Bjorn split fire into the closet PM and MBH, dealt one wound on each of them. He then charged into the MBH and that legendary overwatch was just not able to reproduce itself and the result of the combat is just without doubt. The Wulfen multi charged into the Sorcerer and the one wound left PBC, also destroyed both of them without any difficulty. What is left for the DG at the start of Turn 5 were only two squads of Plague Marines, which both got chased by the Bjorn and Wulfen and killed at the end of this turn.
After-game thought Another brutal fight. It is fun and both side actually have some chances in the game. The victory of the Space Wolves has been carried forward with no small part of luck on dice, the precise execution of the battle and most importantly, the exposure of the enemy mistake in the game. When the enemy’s two mistake accumulated, Bjorn’s surgical strike is the most decisive moment of the game.
Bjorn is the hero in this game, almost nothing the Death Guard brought up in this game can stand against him in close combat for even a single round. Wulfen did pretty good as well, maybe they haven’t met their match, but they made their costs back within 2 game turns, which is more than enough to prove their value when considering what they confront are the “most resilient” army.
Imo, the three games shows that the Space Wolves with their new codex do have some teeth, although not being an upper tier army, it can hold itself in semi-competitive games “pretty-ok”. Generally speaking, Space Wolves would never afraid other elite combat army, or a relatively “static” gunline army. What it have trouble against are the armies with strong shooting and high-mobility. And Flyers would likely give an un-prepared SW army real headache. It is also noticed that to build a more competitive army of SW, WG with Jumppack and Characters with Jumppacks should be seriously considered, though not that fluffy for SW. The fluffy units like thunder wolf mount and wolf Dreadnoughts, while being not bad, have huge limitations in their movement due to their big base and not being “fly”. Game two is a textbook example of how their movement can be limited and loss the game.
Best units: Wulfens, whatever they charged into, they kill it. While 3++/5+++ can tank a certain amount of shooting.
Bjorn also do ok, in the last game at least, his surgical strike decided the game.
Worst units: Wulfen Dread, even with 4++, it cannot hold for more than 1 rounds of concentrated fire. It is a distraction Carnifex with 1.5 the points of a Carnifex that still dies easy without attracting enough attention from other units.
I also had a game against the “OP” IK Superheavy Detachment plus IGCP battery the last weekend. Despite losing it was not “one-sided” as I thought when the game started. I would post that when I have time. For anyone and everyone interested to reference.
I'm looking forward to playing with my Wolves soon, focusing on my Iron Warriors until after Dragon-Fall in October.
Good advice getting some jumppack dudes in there, all my characters are on bikes and TW right now. Wulfen are in Land Raiders though, to help them get to their charges.
Good reports. Its not surprising you had trouble with dark eldar, thats a lot of firepower there. I do like bjorn, i like him a lot, but i cant stomach taking him at 250 pts in a 1500 pt game (if you take him with twin las). Its just so many points.
Has anyone had a chance to try out TWC as a distraction carnifex unit? Toss maybe a thunderhammer and then a bunch of chainswords on them and run up the middle?
The BAO winning list had a giant distraction unit of terminators plop into the middle of the table and just engage everything. He kept them cheap and used weight of attacks. We can't buff our TWC as well as DG can buff their terminators, but TWC always seem to pull tons of fire. Wulfen are obviously better at killing stuff, no competitions there, but I would love to have a use for TWC, as I really do like the models.
If you are gonna think of the bao list then wulfen is your carnifex.
The problem is the wolves have no t8 threats that they can spam to support that type of list.
If vindicators get a points drop, then yeh you can have some hard nosed vehicles to draw fire, because 3 vindi's running at you would draw alot of attention. With the 1cp strat for 3d3 mortals.
I may be playing against harlequins next Friday. What should I look out for? I won't be using vehicles so haywire won't be a problem right? Keen senses on the long fangs should mitigate any - to hit. Can you guys think of anything that will be a problem for my wolves?
They are going to be moving very fast at you and they will need to get in close to be effective. Stuff will die, expext it. Watch out for their vehicles, they are able to put out some real damage. Going infantry only is already a pretty smart idea.
If your playing objetives take a few small, cheap squads with deep stike abilities like 5 man skyclaws or an empty drop pod. That way you can drop it in behind their lines onto their objectives easy. Thats the best advice i can give.
Watch out for the characters. Shadowseers have tricky spells, Solitare with the Kiss relic will mulch multiwound infrantry (flat 3 damage), and a Deathjester with the other relic can do some nice damage (mortal wounds and leadership checks).
Expect to die horribly. Your likely going to get charged turn 1 and whatever gets charged dies (aside from maybe Wulfen).
Keep gaps so he can't consolidate from unit to unit and kill them when they're out in the open.
Ordana wrote: Expect to die horribly. Your likely going to get charged turn 1 and whatever gets charged dies (aside from maybe Wulfen).
Keep gaps so he can't consolidate from unit to unit and kill them when they're out in the open.
Pretty much this, imho Harlequin is one of the OP army if they go first but fortunately SW could at least negate that army wide -1 to hit.
Generally you may not want to take lots of great AP weapons, the Harlequins have army wide 4++ and some guys have 3++. Bolter, Heavy Bolters, Assault Cannons, Chainswords, Wolf Claws are good.
Ordana wrote: Expect to die horribly. Your likely going to get charged turn 1 and whatever gets charged dies (aside from maybe Wulfen).
Keep gaps so he can't consolidate from unit to unit and kill them when they're out in the open.
Pretty much this, imho Harlequin is one of the OP army if they go first but fortunately SW could at least negate that army wide -1 to hit.
Generally you may not want to take lots of great AP weapons, the Harlequins have army wide 4++ and some guys have 3++. Bolter, Heavy Bolters, Assault Cannons, Chainswords, Wolf Claws are good.
I was thinking this. I spoke to a buddy who uses them and learned that sure they are fast, their weapons are short range and have a 4++ but I can throw a lot of dice at them. outflanking aggressors with both storm gauntlets and Long fangs outflanking with heavy bolters. I need to blow up their vehicles which are lower toughness value . Most of my weapons and shooting wound thief infantry on threes and twos could be very effective. I know they can mitigate some overwatch but if I feed them units like gray hunters an overzealous opponent will try and finish them allowing me to heroically intervene where needed. I plan to take the armor of Russ on a jump pack claw Lord to make sure I attack whatever I need to first and pile in any characters or anything else that I can to kill whatever it is like a psyker or super character . So I need to keep my distance and shoot them up before I assault them.
Long Fangs [9 PL, 186pts] . Long Fang: Plasma cannon
. Long Fang: Plasma cannon
. Long Fang: Lascannon
. Long Fang: Lascannon
. Long Fang: Heavy bolter
. Long Fang Pack Leader: Boltgun and Bolt Pistol, Chainsword
I have the ability to deepstrike a lot if I choose. We don't play beta rules in my FLGS so I could outflank the wulfen and aggressors turn 1 and DS the jumppack wolfguard with lord and wgbl. Allowing aggressors to reroll 1s for hits and wounds. And charge in with wulfen and wolfguard hopefully since wulfen give reroll charge bubble. I also plan to smite and spell the transports as much as possible. I will hide my long fangs in a back corner completely out of sight then move and keen senses my turn.
Yeah, that's good advice. I would probably go with a huge bunch of grey hunters to start with. 4 squads of 10. Give them a few plasma guns and start them on the board far back. Let them come to you. Then on the 2nd turn outflank some longfangs on the side / in their deployment zone. As far away as you can and still in range. I would probably go 4 heavy bolters in one squad and 4 missile launchers in another. Say what you want, 4d6 range 48 bolter equivalent shots can make low t armies with invulnerable saves cry (stupid fun to do to demons after they spent 2 turns running across the board to get you to make them turn around and run back to where they started).
Ordana wrote: Expect to die horribly. Your likely going to get charged turn 1 and whatever gets charged dies (aside from maybe Wulfen).
Keep gaps so he can't consolidate from unit to unit and kill them when they're out in the open.
Pretty much this, imho Harlequin is one of the OP army if they go first but fortunately SW could at least negate that army wide -1 to hit.
Generally you may not want to take lots of great AP weapons, the Harlequins have army wide 4++ and some guys have 3++. Bolter, Heavy Bolters, Assault Cannons, Chainswords, Wolf Claws are good.
I was thinking this. I spoke to a buddy who uses them and learned that sure they are fast, their weapons are short range and have a 4++ but I can throw a lot of dice at them. outflanking aggressors with both storm gauntlets and Long fangs outflanking with heavy bolters. I need to blow up their vehicles which are lower toughness value . Most of my weapons and shooting wound thief infantry on threes and twos could be very effective. I know they can mitigate some overwatch but if I feed them units like gray hunters an overzealous opponent will try and finish them allowing me to heroically intervene where needed. I plan to take the armor of Russ on a jump pack claw Lord to make sure I attack whatever I need to first and pile in any characters or anything else that I can to kill whatever it is like a psyker or super character . So I need to keep my distance and shoot them up before I assault them.
Long Fangs [9 PL, 186pts] . Long Fang: Plasma cannon
. Long Fang: Plasma cannon
. Long Fang: Lascannon
. Long Fang: Lascannon
. Long Fang: Heavy bolter
. Long Fang Pack Leader: Boltgun and Bolt Pistol, Chainsword
I have the ability to deepstrike a lot if I choose. We don't play beta rules in my FLGS so I could outflank the wulfen and aggressors turn 1 and DS the jumppack wolfguard with lord and wgbl. Allowing aggressors to reroll 1s for hits and wounds. And charge in with wulfen and wolfguard hopefully since wulfen give reroll charge bubble. I also plan to smite and spell the transports as much as possible. I will hide my long fangs in a back corner completely out of sight then move and keen senses my turn.
I think you would like to consider putting the Armour of Russ on the Rune Priest who is taking the Fury of the Wolf Spirits, he is one of the character who don't have a decent (4++ or above) inv saves. The Wolf Lord has Belt of Russ anyway, and Wolf Lord and WGBL both can take Storm Shield. While by taking the Fury of the Wolf Spirits I bet you would like this Rune Priest to engage in close combat, so the Armor of Russ would be useful if put on him as well.
For the weapon of choice most are good. Not so sure about the lascannons, maybe change those to Plasma Cannon as well? more shots and cheaper, while also wound the Harlequin vehicles on 3+ anyway. If overcharge you are actually doing more dmg to those T6 4++ vehicles than the Lascannon.
I think you might modelled the Rune Priest with sword or axe, but it is better to say those Rune Priest are having the Runic Stave for this game if you guys are not implementing the most extreme WYSIWYG, Str 6 VS Str 5 or Str 4 is meaningful for fighting any kind of Eldar, while the improved AP for the axe and sword is meaningless against army wide 4++.
Harequins' close combat weapons are all AP-2 or AP-3, and even their basic troops have 4-5 attacks for each model their transports can get across the board super fast and their infantry have the genestealer speed, and have some trick to deny your overwatch. So I can expect your Grey Hunters would all die in the first two round without doing any significant damage back. So maybe keep them cheap and use them as speed bump, and rely on Long Fangs, Aggressors, WG and Wulfens to do the damage back. Hide the Long Fangs at the far back and behind large LoS blocking terrain is the right way to go, also it is suggested you deploy them last, after the majority of the Harlequin units are deployed.
It would likely be a tough fight but it is not saying that you stand no chance. Good luck.
What are the ideal numbers and loadout for Wulfen in 2000 points. They will mainly be backed by grey hunters, Wolf Lords and Dreadnoughts. I am going to convert some models as I hate the dancing ones and wanted to know how many legs and chests I needed.
I think you would like to consider putting the Armour of Russ on the Rune Priest who is taking the Fury of the Wolf Spirits, he is one of the character who don't have a decent (4++ or above) inv saves. The Wolf Lord has Belt of Russ anyway, and Wolf Lord and WGBL both can take Storm Shield. While by taking the Fury of the Wolf Spirits I bet you would like this Rune Priest to engage in close combat, so the Armor of Russ would be useful if put on him as well.
For the weapon of choice most are good. Not so sure about the lascannons, maybe change those to Plasma Cannon as well? more shots and cheaper, while also wound the Harlequin vehicles on 3+ anyway. If overcharge you are actually doing more dmg to those T6 4++ vehicles than the Lascannon.
I think you might modelled the Rune Priest with sword or axe, but it is better to say those Rune Priest are having the Runic Stave for this game if you guys are not implementing the most extreme WYSIWYG, Str 6 VS Str 5 or Str 4 is meaningful for fighting any kind of Eldar, while the improved AP for the axe and sword is meaningless against army wide 4++.
Harequins' close combat weapons are all AP-2 or AP-3, and even their basic troops have 4-5 attacks for each model their transports can get across the board super fast and their infantry have the genestealer speed, and have some trick to deny your overwatch. So I can expect your Grey Hunters would all die in the first two round without doing any significant damage back. So maybe keep them cheap and use them as speed bump, and rely on Long Fangs, Aggressors, WG and Wulfens to do the damage back. Hide the Long Fangs at the far back and behind large LoS blocking terrain is the right way to go, also it is suggested you deploy them last, after the majority of the Harlequin units are deployed.
It would likely be a tough fight but it is not saying that you stand no chance. Good luck.
I do have a limited load outs for models currently but I am always converting to try out new ones. I think my best bet will be just to keep my distance, shoot them as much as possible, and then counter charge if able. Our units have lots of attacks also its just that due to their speed they will likely be the ones getting to combat first. I will definitely use the grey hunters to speed bump them and use rune priests spells to keep the long fangs alive long enough to shoot the harlequin vehicles to ribbons. Ill outflank most likely turn 2 and shoot what I can most likely from behind them. Then, hopefully, counter charge turn 3 or so with my lord on thunder wolf and rune priests. I know wolves prefer combat but these shifty elven clowns want that and so I must deny them until I am ready.
ZergSmasher wrote: So, Long Fangs. 4 Missile Launchers and a WGPL in Terminator armor with a Cyclone Launcher. Yes or no?
I would vote no. If you put the long Fangs on the Hunt to protect them from alpha strikes the cyclone might not be in range of your prime target. And if it shoots something else it looses the re-roll. . It's also 82 points. I would rather take a 5th heavy weapon in the squad.
ZergSmasher wrote: So, Long Fangs. 4 Missile Launchers and a WGPL in Terminator armor with a Cyclone Launcher. Yes or no?
I would vote no. If you put the long Fangs on the Hunt to protect them from alpha strikes the cyclone might not be in range of your prime target. And if it shoots something else it looses the re-roll. . It's also 82 points. I would rather take a 5th heavy weapon in the squad.
This is true, but it is about the same cost as 2 long fangs with 2 missile launchers.
Having said that, I think you'd be better off taking a 5th heavy weapon, and then a WGPL with a storm shield for some protection against the high AP fire that they will inevitably attract.
ZergSmasher wrote: So, Long Fangs. 4 Missile Launchers and a WGPL in Terminator armor with a Cyclone Launcher. Yes or no?
It looks like everyones objection is to the WGPL with the cyclone launcher. I am taking a second look at missile launchers myself because of the flakk missile strategem. I think I agree that it might not be worth it. The 5th heavy weapon instead or a WGPL with stormshield could do the trick.
My thought is to add a single missile launcher long fang as the 5th heavy weapons holder in a plasma or lascannon squad. Fire the missile at the same target for the reroll ones but use the strat and it's some good, additional damage.
ZergSmasher wrote: So, Long Fangs. 4 Missile Launchers and a WGPL in Terminator armor with a Cyclone Launcher. Yes or no?
I would vote no. If you put the long Fangs on the Hunt to protect them from alpha strikes the cyclone might not be in range of your prime target. And if it shoots something else it looses the re-roll. . It's also 82 points. I would rather take a 5th heavy weapon in the squad.
CML has same range as a normal Missile Launcher, 48 inches, yes? It would be hard to stay out of range of it even if the squad outflanks into your own deployment zone. I agree that it's a bit of a point sink for one model, but imagine the possibilities if he becomes a Lone Wolf...
As for taking a WGPL with Storm Shield, it seems a bit...fragile. Yes, he can tank good AP shots, but if I saw one of those in the squad I'd start shooting my crappy guns to try to drop that guy first, then shoot the better guns. Might it be worth taking some ablative bolter guys in the unit instead?
Hey everybody necron player here. My FLGS is having a 2k tournament soon, and I was hoping you guys would have a couple of answers to some questions of mine.
My Space Wolves playing friend has been stomping me lately with a rhino rush full of bloodclaws with character support, rune priests giving them all cover, and copious use of the -1 to hit stratagem. He also runs a stormwolf, wulfen, long fangs, and wolf guard. I am hoping to give myself a little more of an edge against him at the tournament. Here is my list:
My goal is to try and kite him around. I've tried using infantry, but other than sitting on objectives, they seem to just get steam rolled and I have no real good targets for them. I am hoping dancing around from objective to objective will help me whittle him down to something more manageable. Do any of you fellow Wolf players see any major flaws in my plan? Any suggestions for my list?
ZergSmasher wrote: So, Long Fangs. 4 Missile Launchers and a WGPL in Terminator armor with a Cyclone Launcher. Yes or no?
I would vote no. If you put the long Fangs on the Hunt to protect them from alpha strikes the cyclone might not be in range of your prime target. And if it shoots something else it looses the re-roll. . It's also 82 points. I would rather take a 5th heavy weapon in the squad.
CML has same range as a normal Missile Launcher, 48 inches, yes? It would be hard to stay out of range of it even if the squad outflanks into your own deployment zone. I agree that it's a bit of a point sink for one model, but imagine the possibilities if he becomes a Lone Wolf...
As for taking a WGPL with Storm Shield, it seems a bit...fragile. Yes, he can tank good AP shots, but if I saw one of those in the squad I'd start shooting my crappy guns to try to drop that guy first, then shoot the better guns. Might it be worth taking some ablative bolter guys in the unit instead?
No, it's only 36". I'm also always starved for points and have to shave some toys to get all the boys I want.
My longfang packs are always 4 heavy weapons, 1 extra guy with bolter, pack leader, and wgpl with storm shield. It gives enough extra guys that if someone fires a lot of base guns you can take the 2 regular saves first and if a big -ap comes your way everyone hides behind the shield.
DudleyGrim wrote: Hey everybody necron player here. My FLGS is having a 2k tournament soon, and I was hoping you guys would have a couple of answers to some questions of mine.
My Space Wolves playing friend has been stomping me lately with a rhino rush full of bloodclaws with character support, rune priests giving them all cover, and copious use of the -1 to hit stratagem. He also runs a stormwolf, wulfen, long fangs, and wolf guard. I am hoping to give myself a little more of an edge against him at the tournament. Here is my list:
My goal is to try and kite him around. I've tried using infantry, but other than sitting on objectives, they seem to just get steam rolled and I have no real good targets for them. I am hoping dancing around from objective to objective will help me whittle him down to something more manageable. Do any of you fellow Wolf players see any major flaws in my plan? Any suggestions for my list?
well obviously you're going to be pretty short on command points with this army. which could be a weakness (dunno eneugh about 'cron strats to know if there are any you're gonna want)
Azuza001 wrote: My longfang packs are always 4 heavy weapons, 1 extra guy with bolter, pack leader, and wgpl with storm shield. It gives enough extra guys that if someone fires a lot of base guns you can take the 2 regular saves first and if a big -ap comes your way everyone hides behind the shield.
And use them in cover whereever possible. Even a regular guy with 2+ save is great against small arms fire definitely save the shield for bigger guns.
For the necron player asking about how to play against the rhino rush. Do Crons have heavy weapons that can fly? Put them on top of terrain and blow up your opponents rhinos. Rhinos can't climb terrain and the guys will have to walk. Space your units further apart so we can't heroically intervene and avoid overwatch. We can do it up to 6" away and we just waltz right in without being shot. I immortals put out a lot of shots right? Pump the guys who get out of the rhinos full of lasers.
Whats the best unit size for wulfen? I am thinking of running like 20 of them and was wondering if one big unit of 10 and two small unit would be a good combo. or should i just go brute force and run them as two 10 man squads.
mightymconeshot wrote: What are the ideal numbers and loadout for Wulfen in 2000 points. They will mainly be backed by grey hunters, Wolf Lords and Dreadnoughts. I am going to convert some models as I hate the dancing ones and wanted to know how many legs and chests I needed.
I tend to run squads of ten, six with TH/SS, two with FC and the leader - Generally mangles anything that it hits and usually hits on the first turn they arrive.
mightymconeshot wrote: What are the ideal numbers and loadout for Wulfen in 2000 points. They will mainly be backed by grey hunters, Wolf Lords and Dreadnoughts. I am going to convert some models as I hate the dancing ones and wanted to know how many legs and chests I needed.
I tend to run squads of ten, six with TH/SS, two with FC and the leader - Generally mangles anything that it hits and usually hits on the first turn they arrive.
Wow, isn't that like a 1000 points right there.. what does the rest of your list look like? I really can't see the Wulfen kicking so much ass that they would pull their weight in points. Also the idea of painting 20 of them... hrrrrrr..
mightymconeshot wrote: What are the ideal numbers and loadout for Wulfen in 2000 points. They will mainly be backed by grey hunters, Wolf Lords and Dreadnoughts. I am going to convert some models as I hate the dancing ones and wanted to know how many legs and chests I needed.
I tend to run squads of ten, six with TH/SS, two with FC and the leader - Generally mangles anything that it hits and usually hits on the first turn they arrive.
Wow, isn't that like a 1000 points right there.. what does the rest of your list look like? I really can't see the Wulfen kicking so much ass that they would pull their weight in points. Also the idea of painting 20 of them... hrrrrrr..
Vanguard Space Wolves
Wolf Priest JP Rune Priest JP 10x Wulfen (6x TH/SS 3xFC 1xLeader)
10x Wulfen (6x TH/SS 3xFC 1xLeader)
5x Wolf Scouts
We do run Beta rules but my list is stupidly flexible in what goes into “Deep Strike” could be two squads of Wulfen, could be one squad and a Kill Team, could be three Kill Teams and Wolf Scouts. Not the most powerful list but constantly threatening.
I paint Wulfen pretty easily, scruffy works for them. My biggest gripe with twenty Wulfen is twenty single leg breaking points, that’s why ten of mine are Terminators kit-bashed to be Wulfen.
Yeah well scruffy is fine and all but I just can't force myself to not paint neatly. And they have sooooooo many fine details. I've had 5 of them for quite some time now and I still have two of them to finish. I'd love to have more of them but the idea of painting them is too damn daunting.
Depends how much armour they’re wearing.
My Grey Hunters in 40k colours are literally spray painted in base coat and dunked in watered down writing ink then left to dry while I trim and detail the previous one.
Wulfen I spray black then dry-brush their fur and armour.
Trim and trinkets are the only things I spend real time on.
mightymconeshot wrote: What are the ideal numbers and loadout for Wulfen in 2000 points. They will mainly be backed by grey hunters, Wolf Lords and Dreadnoughts. I am going to convert some models as I hate the dancing ones and wanted to know how many legs and chests I needed.
I tend to run squads of ten, six with TH/SS, two with FC and the leader - Generally mangles anything that it hits and usually hits on the first turn they arrive.
Wow, isn't that like a 1000 points right there.. what does the rest of your list look like? I really can't see the Wulfen kicking so much ass that they would pull their weight in points. Also the idea of painting 20 of them... hrrrrrr..
My list is main about moving fast and giving few good targets. Knights and Smash bro are not much of a threat and I hit like a ton of bricks.
+++ Hunting Wolves +++
++ Total: [102 PL, 1997pts] ++ = 8CP Total
++ Battalion Detachment +5CP (Imperium - Space Wolves) ++
+ HQ +
Wolf Priest: Combi-melta, Jump Packs, Power fist
The Wulfen Stone: Relic of The Fang
Your list has no fire support. You can focus down each calvary unit with fire power, and the blood claws are so slow they wouldn't be a threat until turn 3 most likely.
Your list can also be easily zoned out, I'm looking at the outflanking wulfen which I'm assuming you would do, if you dont do it you're worse off.
However, if they dont zone you, they're in trouble.
KingCorpus wrote: Your list has no fire support. You can focus down each calvary unit with fire power, and the blood claws are so slow they wouldn't be a threat until turn 3 most likely.
Your list can also be easily zoned out, I'm looking at the outflanking wulfen which I'm assuming you would do, if you dont do it you're worse off.
However, if they dont zone you, they're in trouble.
The blood Claws are for objective sitting mostly and Line Breaker.
Anything in the game can be focused down.
So i am not understanding you meaning in zoneing?
Likely Out flank the two smaller wulfin units. with the big unit acting as a big distraction that you shouldn't ignore. The TW are for grabbing objectives and clearing chaff units.
This is a list that does one thing and does it well.
I think what he means is your list has some flaws, it does its one thing very well but it can be easily countered by a list not even ment to counter that list. What would you do vs a flyer heavy list, like 3 stormfangs?
KingCorpus wrote: Your list has no fire support. You can focus down each calvary unit with fire power, and the blood claws are so slow they wouldn't be a threat until turn 3 most likely.
Your list can also be easily zoned out, I'm looking at the outflanking wulfen which I'm assuming you would do, if you dont do it you're worse off.
However, if they dont zone you, they're in trouble.
The blood Claws are for objective sitting mostly and Line Breaker.
Anything in the game can be focused down.
So i am not understanding you meaning in zoneing?
Likely Out flank the two smaller wulfin units. with the big unit acting as a big distraction that you shouldn't ignore. The TW are for grabbing objectives and clearing chaff units.
This is a list that does one thing and does it well.
By zoning people mean using cheap units spread across their side of the board edge to so that you cannot come on within 9" of something usefull.
DudleyGrim wrote: Hey everybody necron player here. My FLGS is having a 2k tournament soon, and I was hoping you guys would have a couple of answers to some questions of mine.
My Space Wolves playing friend has been stomping me lately with a rhino rush full of bloodclaws with character support, rune priests giving them all cover, and copious use of the -1 to hit stratagem. He also runs a stormwolf, wulfen, long fangs, and wolf guard. I am hoping to give myself a little more of an edge against him at the tournament. Here is my list:
My goal is to try and kite him around. I've tried using infantry, but other than sitting on objectives, they seem to just get steam rolled and I have no real good targets for them. I am hoping dancing around from objective to objective will help me whittle him down to something more manageable. Do any of you fellow Wolf players see any major flaws in my plan? Any suggestions for my list?
well obviously you're going to be pretty short on command points with this army. which could be a weakness (dunno eneugh about 'cron strats to know if there are any you're gonna want)
Outside of extermination protocols for the destroyers, I do not really plan on using many stratagems. Sacrificing the points for troops seems to be quite weak vs the list my friend is using. I am probably going to save my CP for some big rerolls and the odd EP vs a high value target.
Weazel wrote: Yeah well scruffy is fine and all but I just can't force myself to not paint neatly. And they have sooooooo many fine details. I've had 5 of them for quite some time now and I still have two of them to finish. I'd love to have more of them but the idea of painting them is too damn daunting.
Any speed painting tips?
I don't know about speed painting, but Warhammer TV did a nice painting tutorial on how to paint Wulfen, picking out the cool details and breaking it down into steps.
Azuza001 wrote: I think what he means is your list has some flaws, it does its one thing very well but it can be easily countered by a list not even ment to counter that list. What would you do vs a flyer heavy list, like 3 stormfangs?
Play to the mission, hide, and kill his other stuff. Almost everything in the list get a save baring mortal wounds. I will have a few bad match-ups but the top list like IK and the like this list doesn't care all that much about. I thinking of dropping a Wolf Priest for a Rune Priest to get the -1 power and strat. They take the bite out of a lot of shooting.
I don't see air force that much in my meta. Well some with Eldar.
Weazel wrote: Yeah well scruffy is fine and all but I just can't force myself to not paint neatly. And they have sooooooo many fine details. I've had 5 of them for quite some time now and I still have two of them to finish. I'd love to have more of them but the idea of painting them is too damn daunting.
Any speed painting tips?
I don't know about speed painting, but Warhammer TV did a nice painting tutorial on how to paint Wulfen, picking out the cool details and breaking it down into steps.
Warhammer TV is a fantastic p[lace for painting tips etc. it's my first stopp whenever I'm wanting to do something new painting wise
Weazel wrote: Yeah well scruffy is fine and all but I just can't force myself to not paint neatly. And they have sooooooo many fine details. I've had 5 of them for quite some time now and I still have two of them to finish. I'd love to have more of them but the idea of painting them is too damn daunting.
Any speed painting tips?
I don't know about speed painting, but Warhammer TV did a nice painting tutorial on how to paint Wulfen, picking out the cool details and breaking it down into steps.
Warhammer TV is a fantastic p[lace for painting tips etc. it's my first stopp whenever I'm wanting to do something new painting wise
My three completed ones are painted following the GW guide, so I'm familiar with it. It's a good guide but it's not a quick painting method. It takes several hours to paint just one.
Weazel wrote: Yeah well scruffy is fine and all but I just can't force myself to not paint neatly. And they have sooooooo many fine details. I've had 5 of them for quite some time now and I still have two of them to finish. I'd love to have more of them but the idea of painting them is too damn daunting.
Any speed painting tips?
I don't know about speed painting, but Warhammer TV did a nice painting tutorial on how to paint Wulfen, picking out the cool details and breaking it down into steps.
Warhammer TV is a fantastic p[lace for painting tips etc. it's my first stopp whenever I'm wanting to do something new painting wise
GW guides are designed to sell paint pots.
Do you have access to spray in cans or an airbrush?
Weazel wrote: Yeah well scruffy is fine and all but I just can't force myself to not paint neatly. And they have sooooooo many fine details. I've had 5 of them for quite some time now and I still have two of them to finish. I'd love to have more of them but the idea of painting them is too damn daunting.
Any speed painting tips?
I don't know about speed painting, but Warhammer TV did a nice painting tutorial on how to paint Wulfen, picking out the cool details and breaking it down into steps.
Warhammer TV is a fantastic p[lace for painting tips etc. it's my first stopp whenever I'm wanting to do something new painting wise
GW guides are designed to sell paint pots.
Do you have access to spray in cans or an airbrush?
some armies and units spray paint easier then others.
Iron Warriors for example are stupid easy, spray with Lead beltcher, toss a wash on, then do any highlights or detail you want, and there you go.
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: Yeah I couldn't imagine a sprayed Ultramarine army would look that nice.
Actually for my ultramarines I use a spray, I spray blue then do the metal and the trim, and fill in the other details...it works nicely. One army I've found a colour spray is pretty unhelpful with though is space Wolves as Russ grey is a layer paint and thus not avaliable from GW in a spray can. I've also found spraying with the Fang can be annoying as it makes painting furs etc MUCH harder
What i have found as a decent trick is to get regular grey spray and paint my wolves in that. Then take blue shade and use that through my airbrush. Its not russ grey but it does the grey/blue effect nicely and easily.
Yeah, the delay in our faq is getting annoying. Had a lot of issues with armor of russ and other stuff like charging / that tyranid warlord ability to allow someone to go first. Even when gw tries their best to make it clear like they did on armor of russ its not...
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: Yeah I couldn't imagine a sprayed Ultramarine army would look that nice.
Actually for my ultramarines I use a spray, I spray blue then do the metal and the trim, and fill in the other details...it works nicely. One army I've found a colour spray is pretty unhelpful with though is space Wolves as Russ grey is a layer paint and thus not avaliable from GW in a spray can. I've also found spraying with the Fang can be annoying as it makes painting furs etc MUCH harder
Thicken a brown or black for the fur and hit it with a medium brush, then you can work it.
So has anyone had the chance to try the Wulfen Dreads? They're not too expensive and pack a decent punch in CC but are they just gonna bite the dust too quickly with 4++ ?
Weazel wrote: So has anyone had the chance to try the Wulfen Dreads? They're not too expensive and pack a decent punch in CC but are they just gonna bite the dust too quickly with 4++ ?
I did. Once in a campaign where it died in all 3 games, all in turn 1 / 2. Except the game against Blood Angel where ot kills a few Death Company before being stabbed dead, all other games it died without doing anything.
The second time was against an IK / IG army. It got one shot by a Castellan 's Volcano Cannon. It didn't even attract its other weapons from killing my GH carrying Rhinos.
It is a trash unit imo and in my experience. It is a 160ish point distraction Carnifex that failed to distract enemy firepower.
Well it's 137 points and like many other units, there's no point in running just one. I would run a minimum of two, maybe even three.
Getting a vehicle oneshot by a Volcano cannon is no big surprise. That's a decent amount of firepower attracted right there with a 50% chance of blocking. I guess you just have to block all of the shots or you're toast.
Any other experiences? I have 2 of the models so I might as well try them, but kinda messing with different ideas what to run beside them.
I wouldnt run them. The venerable dread is slightly more expensive, gets the same build options, but gets 6+ fnp and smoke launchers, plus better bs/ws. You can move 2 vens up with the axe and shield with a rune priest and an iron priest, get the -1 strat off, pop smoke if needed (which i do when i advance them turn 1 since they are not in range anyways) and heal any damage possibly taken with the iron priest. I normally run these guys as body guards for murderfang. Run them right up the center, with 3 large grey hunter squads outflanking. Now you opponent has 3 choices. Stay in their deployment zone giving you board control, move towards the center to avoid the flanks and being in double tap range of the hunters, or go to the edges giving you the center.
Oh, and iron priests rock. Had one kill a swarmlord in cc (ish). He charged murderfang, i heroically intervened with iron priest, damage was done, he killed murderfang, my turn i finsh him off with the pistol. If your running dreads, dont overlook this cheap hq
Azuza001 wrote: I wouldnt run them. The venerable dread is slightly more expensive, gets the same build options, but gets 6+ fnp and smoke launchers, plus better bs/ws. You can move 2 vens up with the axe and shield with a rune priest and an iron priest, get the -1 strat off, pop smoke if needed (which i do when i advance them turn 1 since they are not in range anyways) and heal any damage possibly taken with the iron priest. I normally run these guys as body guards for murderfang. Run them right up the center, with 3 large grey hunter squads outflanking. Now you opponent has 3 choices. Stay in their deployment zone giving you board control, move towards the center to avoid the flanks and being in double tap range of the hunters, or go to the edges giving you the center.
Oh, and iron priests rock. Had one kill a swarmlord in cc (ish). He charged murderfang, i heroically intervened with iron priest, damage was done, he killed murderfang, my turn i finsh him off with the pistol. If your running dreads, dont overlook this cheap hq
The Ven Dread is a far worse option.
1. The increased BS matters if you're shooting. You talk about smoke launchers and advancing, which means tons of points wasted on a weapon that will shoot how many times?
2. With that point made, the Wulfen Dread can advance and charge.
3. The increased WS is also irrelevant because of the +1 to hit bonus for the first round of combat, where you're determining if you win the fight and then they fall back, or you're against a target that will kill you. Which leads to:
4. A 4++ is WAY better than a 6+++, seriously. The only time it's acceptable is when you get it stacked like Iron Hands could, but they took that away for no good reason. Heaven forbid Iron Hands get anything good right?
Dreads are 8 wounds right? You basically only get a little more than 1 additional wound when you look at it.
Also can't take you seriously when you say Iron Priests rock.
Ok so tomorrow is the game against my harlequin opponent and I have finalized a list based on models I currently have converted/ what I want to test out i.e. the thunderwolves.
Rune Priest [7 PL, 122pts]: 2. Tempest's Wrath, 4. Fury of the Wolf Spirits, Bolt pistol, Jump Packs, Runic staff
. The Armour of Russ: Relic of The Fang
Thunderwolf Cavalry [8 PL, 174pts] . Thunderwolf Cavalry: Storm shield, Wolf claw
. Thunderwolf Cavalry: Storm shield, Wolf claw
. Thunderwolf Cavalry Pack Leader: Wolf claw, Wolf claw
+ Heavy Support +
Long Fangs [8 PL, 154pts] . Long Fang: Plasma cannon
. Long Fang: Plasma cannon
. Long Fang: Plasma cannon
. Long Fang: Plasma cannon
. Long Fang Pack Leader: Boltgun and Bolt Pistol, Chainsword
Basic plan. Since he is going to be fast with a 4+ invul I'm going to let him come to me using a layered defense and then outflank him. I'm going to post up in a corner or near large terrain piece to protect the long fangs. If I go first I'll pop tempests wrath , hopefully stormcaller and the -1 storm stratagem. I'll use the grey hunters to speed bump/ block out deepstrike up front, and then Thunderwolves and wolflord on thunderwolf poised for counter charge in front of the Rune priests and long fangs. Then I'll deepstrike and outflank jumppack lord, wolfguard , aggressors and wulfen. Unload shooting into his units and try to break their back as they rush towards my lines. I'll try to use spells to mortal wound whereever possible. His 4++ means even against bolters he will fail saves 50% of the time. I'll abuse the keen senses as much as possible.
I was talking about wulfen dread with axe and shield vs venerable dread with axe and shield. I specifically said that. Ven costs what, 20 more points? So your talking about 3+/4++/6+++ with one turn of -1 to hit since your going to not be in range anyways vs 3+/4++ and your still not in range t1 to charge. Rerolling failed charges is nice but is not an absolute necessity.
As for the iron priest, the guy costs what, 82 pts with the pistol? He has 3 thunder hammer attacks so isnt a weakling, able to heal d3 wounds on a vehicle he is standing next to (which again easy to do), throw the armor of russ on him to get him to 2+/4++, and thats not considering the str 8 ap-4 d3 pistol shot?
I am sticking to my opinion. If your running multiple dreads in a group he is very useful. Keeping your bullet magnet venerable dreads alive so they can keep moving forward is very valuable and should not be overlooked for the cost.
Well taking the Venerable option (or few) and an IP takes the points cost of the small distraction carnifex unit to another ballpark altogether.
I'd say if you're going Axe&Shield the Wulfen variant is superior. It's significantly faster and it rerolls charges which means that T2 charge is that much more likely than with a slower VenDread.
With any scary unit, you need target saturation. If you run a basic battalion with most of the stuff hanging back or mid-field, one approaching frothing-by-the-mouth dreadnought is going to get focused hard.
Which is why I brought this question up in the first place, I'm curious what to support or compliment a couple of Wulfen dreads with? There's not many strong options for our Elite slots so running a Vanguard detachment is tricky.
I guess if you don't have the points for a reasonable battalion, the cheapest option is running an Outrider with 3 separate Cyberwolves (which can be replaced by TWC units should you so choose).
A Wulfen dread has a better chance of making a turn 2 charge thanks to 4" more movement and a re-rolling charge.
If the enemy does not come forward a Venerable dread will not charge until turn 3.
Yes the Venerable is more survivable. But that is meaningless if it isn't making it into combat in the first place.
Furthermore the smoke launcher is not much of a use because of this. If you smoke turn 1 I can wait until turn 2 to kill you, because you can't reach me anyway.
If you hold smoke until turn 2 I will kill it turn 1 unless you manage to keep it hidden. But then its probably not coming forward at full speed and might not even make the turn 3 charge.
As to what to complement them with?
I would say a Stormfang, Thunderwolfs and some outflanking Wulfen.
New concept I heard of: So I happened to stumble onto a Veterans of the Longwar podast.. think I got that name right. Anyway, they were talking about a brutal Rune Priest configuration and it having a potential 20 attacks. It sounded very viable.
You take a RP with JP, give him the melee psychic power, give him the wulfen stone relic. Make him warlord and give him beast slayer/hunter whatever it is. With the strategem to attack twice, that's 20 attacks. If he dies that's another 10 to 20. They said 20 but I am not sure why it would be another 20 if he dies and uses the last hero strat.
They mentioned some other strats too, like the reroll to wound and such. It is a huge CP sink but it sounded hilarious. I ran some basic math and with some rerolls you can do like, 12 wounds to Morty with that first salvo with the D3 damage.
On a separate note: I had some success with my Wulfen dreads. I ran two across the board with two rhinos full of blood claws but I had a Stormfang with wulfen + logan + runepriest in it that caught some serious attention.
Stormfang somehow survived, they were able to run up and eat the deathwatch flamer overwatch for other stuff to get into combat without taking damage. They were pretty brutal once they got into contact.
A Rune priest has 3 base. 6 attacks extra with the wolves spell, wulfen stone is 1, and if has or is near warlord with wolfkin saga that's 1 more. So that's 3+6+1+1=11attacks? So that's 22 attacks if he attacks again with either the honor the chapter or only in death does duty end. Pretty awesome.
Lord on thunderwolf 4 base , d3 with Black Death,3 for wolf and wolfkin and near wulfen or stone for +1.
That's 10-12 for the lord so 20-24 with the strats. Pretty awesome I think.
TheunlikelyGamer wrote: A Rune priest has 3 base. 6 attacks extra with the wolves spell, wulfen stone is 1, and if has or is near warlord with wolfkin saga that's 1 more. So that's 3+6+1+1=11attacks? So that's 22 attacks if he attacks again with either the honor the chapter or only in death does duty end. Pretty awesome.
Lord on thunderwolf 4 base , d3 with Black Death,3 for wolf and wolfkin and near wulfen or stone for +1.
That's 10-12 for the lord so 20-24 with the strats. Pretty awesome I think.
I like it... but what's the best way to support them and get this unholy beatstick into combat? Have the priest/wolf lord follow a stormwolf packed with Wulfen and maybe some Rhinos w/ Blood Claws, use the Rune Priest -1 to hit rolls CP on turn 1 to give your furry little ball of death some durability and then hope to get into CC on turn 2...? This seems pretty CP hungry though - do we need a small allied guard CP farm?
With +1 to hit you'll be hitting on 2s almost all the time plus lord buffs with reroll 1s so you won't need to spend CP for them on rerolls. I try to only spend the cp on useful strats as I play with 8cp or less due to me using smaller armies. (Max 1500)All of this would be to flavor but I have read online about people using groups of jumppack characters supporting each other and using our 6" heroic intervention into combat to a escape overwatch when possible. Escort with chaff like fenrisian wolves or use bloodclaws/grey hunters. I personally don't have a lot of armor so I will be foot slogging and outflanking. How ever you do it they need to get to combat asap to stay alive and put a hurting on the foe. Wgbl and lords will get you more mileage with rerolls and save some CP for starts. I always reroll a 1 into a 1 anyway. My dice hate me.
I plan on using a jumppack Rune priest with armor of Russ and the freki spell. Plan is to escort them with jumppack and thunderwolves to blend up hordes and elites alike. My wulfen and long fangs will handle the big stuff.
Remember you cant heroicly intervene on your own turn. Heroic intervention happens aftre your opponent charge phase. If its your turn they dont have a charge phase so no free entering combat.
Rune Priest [7 PL, 122pts]: 2. Tempest's Wrath, 4. Fury of the Wolf Spirits, Bolt pistol, Jump Packs, Runic staff
. The Armour of Russ: Relic of The Fang
Thunderwolf Cavalry [8 PL, 174pts] . Thunderwolf Cavalry: Storm shield, Wolf claw
. Thunderwolf Cavalry: Storm shield, Wolf claw
. Thunderwolf Cavalry Pack Leader: Wolf claw, Wolf claw
+ Heavy Support +
Long Fangs [8 PL, 154pts] . Long Fang: Plasma cannon
. Long Fang: Plasma cannon
. Long Fang: Plasma cannon
. Long Fang: Plasma cannon
. Long Fang Pack Leader: Boltgun and Bolt Pistol, Chainsword
My opponent had 3 star weaver transports with 1x5 man harlequin squad in each, 2x 3 skyweaver jetbikes with haywire, 1 solitaire,1 troupe master, and 2 shadowseers. We rolled up for deployment and gametype. Dawn of war and the Relic.
My plan:
Knowing they are fast and need to assault me to do anything worthwhile I deployed denfensively. I deployed in lower right portion of my deployment zone with the grey hunters spread out front , wolves behind them, priests , warlord, and then longfangs hiding out of LOS in cover. He got firstMy opponent had no choice but to come close to me because his weapons are shorter range with a max of 24.
What happened:
Spoiler:
His first round of shooting was abysmal as he was at minus 1 for shooting assault weapons since he advanced and I rolled well for saves. He shot everything just to kill one 5 man grey hunter squad. The solitaire blitzed and assaulted turn 1 into another grey hunter squad. I intervened with both priests and the wolf lord on thunderwolf but only 1 priest could make it into combat. He killed only 3 hunters and took 1 wound in return. My turn i of course shot him killing some bikes and then counter charged. Aggressors and wulfen were deployed in my deployment zone on the left so they could shoot and prepare for turn 2 combat. I killed 5 out of 6 bikes and brought the solitaire to 1 wound.
Turn 2: he moved almost his entire army into my deployment zone shot doing nothing and assaulted the wulfen on my left. He used the troupe master, solitaire who flipped out of the previous combat , and 15 harlequins all with weapons that made them S5 or 6. He barely killed the wulfen needing all of the 45+ attacks he threw at them. I successfully rolled a good amount of invul saves and fnp. The wulfen deathfrenzied killing 4 harlequin. He also assault my aggressors with a star weaver. It lost 3 wounds to overwatch! He assaulted my wolfguard and jp wolflord near the relic with the 2 shadowseers and his last bike with only the bike taking a wound. My turn 2 came and I moved all my cav, both runepriests, thunderwolf lord, and 2 grey hunters over and shot and assaulted the harlequins. My psychic phase was abysmal. He either denied or I rolled horrible for all 4 powers I tried to cast. I made combat with with most of my remaining troops and wiped the solitaire most the harlequins, a star weaver, and the last bike. At this point he quit. I still had all my cav, lord on wolf, two Rune priests 7 grey hunters, my long fangs, aggressors, and jp lord. He only had two starweaver, 2 shadowseers, 3 harlequin and a troupe master. I also had control of the relic.
Things I learned:
It says nothing in the BRB about heroically intervening in combat. So we basically get free 6" movement towards the nearest enemy even if we don't make combat.
Hiding the long fangs was perfect way to keep them alive. And keen senses helped especially with all space clown vehicles being -1 to hit.
Sheer number of shots and attacks in combat are the way to overcome an opponent with army wide 4++. Just make them take lots of saves and they will fail. Stormbolters and bolters worked fine for this. The boltstorm gauntlets were perfect for this and even put in serious work against a T5 vehicle in overwatch!
The clowns are a quintessential glass cannon. If they assault you they'll murder you. But when our wolves counter charge they crumble. Our characters are clutch for us. I think taking min squads of hunters or blood claws maybe the way to go to save pts for more characters and goodies. Especially when we have ways of making Rune priests and lords put out 20 attacks a turn. The armor of Russ is excellent for making sure we overwhelm a nasty unit before it can hit us.
Sounds good except heroic intervention specificly says
After an enemy has completed all of their charge moves any of your characters within 3" of an enemy model can make a heroic intervention. Any that do can move up to 3" as long as they end up closer to the closest enemy model.
For wolves replace 3" with 6". So if your not within that original 6" to begin with you dont just get free movement with your characters.
As for your game i am glad you did so well. I am surprised when he got 1st turn and then you said it was the relic. Why didnt he just grab the relic and run? He definatly had the speed to stay away from you.
Ah, I misunderstood. Even so it would allow us to engage another unit that may not have charged us but is the closest enemy model after all the enemies charges. I think he was so confident that he could assault me, retreat, shoot and charge back towards the middle that he could still lock up the relic. He didnt anticipate getting his face smashed in.
Azuza001 wrote: Sounds good except heroic intervention specificly says
After an enemy has completed all of their charge moves - even if they dont charge you can HI[b]
Correct, but you still have to be within 6" to make the move, its still not a free move just because. Also they have to have a charge phase, hence you don't get to heroic intervention to get into combat during your turn because the enemy never has a charge phase to get the option to get to the end of the charge phase.
Remember you cant heroicly intervene on your own turn. Heroic intervention happens aftre your opponent charge phase. If its your turn they dont have a charge phase so no free entering combat.
Heroic Intervention
After the enemy has completed all of their charge moves, any
of your Characters that are within 3" of an enemy unit may
perform a Heroic Intervention. Any that do so can move up to 3",
so long as they end the move closer to the nearest enemy model.
Heroic Intervention doesn't specify yours or your opponents charge phase. I'll agree that was the intent (and also I play it RAI). But I'll also point out as RAW gives more permission to HI on your own turn than your opponents.
Also somethings that people should be aware of. You do not need to end up in combat to use HI. Say an enemy unit is 6" away, you can move sideways so long as you end up 5.9" away. Also you can use it to contact models that are not the closest model. Similar to the first example but unit a is 3" from you, unit b is 5" from you and they are 2" apart. You can skirt around unit a, get into melee with unit b, and still be over 1" from unit a.
SW 6" HI can be pretty brutal. I managed to get into melee with 3 units of fire warriors with 3 characters in one game. They fall back 6", I heroically intervene 6"...... neato.
If your running 3 rune priests for the lightning power then mise well use njal. Even if not his is pretty useful in term armor.
Trying to say you can heroic intervention in your own turn is just wrong. You can not do so. There is no charge phase for your enemy during your turn, so there can be no after their charge moves. Trying to run it that way is like when people were trying to say you can use psychers in world eater army. Gw had to faq it because people will try anything for an advantage when it was quite obvious as to what the rules ment. Rule lawyering for an advantage isnt in the spirit of the game, i do not suggest anyone try it. You lose friends that way. And if winning is more important than friends then....... yeah. No need to go further.
Gw is waiting for the big faq this fall to put our stuff out, its a mistake but its their game so whatever.
What do you thing of outflanking aggressors as a unit. The shots they can put out is impressive even without standing still.
Mix that with a Wulfen unit coming in to seam like a threat overload to meto me.
shadowfinder wrote: What do you thing of outflanking aggressors as a unit. The shots they can put out is impressive even without standing still.
Mix that with a Wulfen unit coming in to seam like a threat overload to meto me.
Thought of this unit say vs Long fangs?
I did exactly this the other day. Outflanked aggressors and wulfen together. Works amazingly. One thought I had after the game. If I had deployed my aggressors amongst my wulfen then my wulfen could not be charged without the agressors getting to overwatch. 2" coherency you would allow us to place them down such that we could "interlace the units" or deploy them so every other model is a wulfen. The opponent would be within 1" of both units and would have to declare both. This is a just in case scenario where the wulfen don't make their charge or reroll charge or an assault unit wants to erase the aggressors. This won't stop them from getting shot but it will stop most elites and troops from trying to lock them down. Especially since the aggressor don't move in the opponents turn allowing them to double tap.
shadowfinder wrote: What do you thing of outflanking aggressors as a unit. The shots they can put out is impressive even without standing still.
Mix that with a Wulfen unit coming in to seam like a threat overload to meto me.
Thought of this unit say vs Long fangs?
I did exactly this the other day. Outflanked aggressors and wulfen together. Works amazingly. One thought I had after the game. If I had deployed my aggressors amongst my wulfen then my wulfen could not be charged without the agressors getting to overwatch. 2" coherency you would allow us to place them down such that we could "interlace the units" or deploy them so every other model is a wulfen. The opponent would be within 1" of both units and would have to declare both. This is a just in case scenario where the wulfen don't make their charge or reroll charge or an assault unit wants to erase the aggressors. This won't stop them from getting shot but it will stop most elites and troops from trying to lock them down. Especially since the aggressor don't move in the opponents turn allowing them to double tap.
I will have to try that myself. Thanks for the tip.
How cool would it be if Bloodclaws got combat shields? lol
I really thought the FAQ would give us a little more sugar but I guess we have to wait for CA. I thought they'd give all the frost weapons that do the 6+ mortal wound a 4+ roll, as it was shown in the livestream. Oh well. Still happy they didn't really nerf anything big other then the jetpacks for assaulting. But that isn't specific to us.
He's probably referring to the fact that fall back means our assault units are much more vulnerable to shooting in this edition. You can't hide in CC anymore.
I agree that 8th is a lot of fun overall, but it has a lot that can still be improved upon.
Weazel wrote: They nerfed chooser of the slain (but I suppose that was obvious).
Also our Intercessor sarges didn't get powerswords for god knows what reason.
But overall I kinda like the FAQs. If they fixed Fall Back moves I might actually be pretty happy with the game.
What is wrong with fallback moves? I am still really happy with the game. It's the most fun I have had with 40k in a lloonnggg time.
Just that there's not much of a downside to falling back, and the assaulter gets shot to pieces. I wish it wasn't so automatic. The assaulter should have some means to inflict damage, normal attacks or mortal wounds or something.
beir wrote: He's probably referring to the fact that fall back means our assault units are much more vulnerable to shooting in this edition. You can't hide in CC anymore.
I agree that 8th is a lot of fun overall, but it has a lot that can still be improved upon.
Oh yeah, it does. I would be unhappy about it if Games Workshop weren't being as responsive as they are. Back in the day waiting 2+ years for an FAQ answering like 3 questions and not really changing anything inform my opinion on this haha.
As a PC gamer I just review it as content/balance patches from a living game, which always keeps a game alive/moving.
I wonder if having Bjorn, Murderfang and the Chappie Dread together would work, all being characters they can still get the protection. Together they might be threatening enough to take pressure off the Wulfen, just have to work out how to emphasise their threat.
Dakka Wolf wrote: I wonder if having Bjorn, Murderfang and the Chappie Dread together would work, all being characters they can still get the protection. Together they might be threatening enough to take pressure off the Wulfen, just have to work out how to emphasise their threat.
You need other units infront of them to screen tho since Characters can not protect other Characters from being targeted.
Weazel wrote: They nerfed chooser of the slain (but I suppose that was obvious).
Also our Intercessor sarges didn't get powerswords for god knows what reason.
But overall I kinda like the FAQs. If they fixed Fall Back moves I might actually be pretty happy with the game.
What is wrong with fallback moves? I am still really happy with the game. It's the most fun I have had with 40k in a lloonnggg time.
Just that there's not much of a downside to falling back, and the assaulter gets shot to pieces. I wish it wasn't so automatic. The assaulter should have some means to inflict damage, normal attacks or mortal wounds or something.
Gotta use your CC units to wrap an enemy unit and prevent it from falling back. Easier said than done, I know, since we don't have the hordes like Chaos and Orks do, but Blood Claws could probably still do it if you run 10 man units.
Chaplain dread is still the best shooty warlord we have with beastslayer so hes still a great pick. I wouldnt run bjorn or any other named dread with him though since contemptor mortis and LF and hellblasters get buffed so hard from his aura, wasting points on chars seems criminal
So with the New FAQ Wulfen can ride in FW transports as long as the transport has a Terminator carrying capacity. This opens a lot of options for transport options. I was looking at the Storm Eagle. Is it worth the points?
Dakka Wolf wrote: I wonder if having Bjorn, Murderfang and the Chappie Dread together would work, all being characters they can still get the protection. Together they might be threatening enough to take pressure off the Wulfen, just have to work out how to emphasise their threat.
You need other units infront of them to screen tho since Characters can not protect other Characters from being targeted.
I know that much, the question is are they in any way more threatening than Wulfen.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
KnightScion wrote: So with the New FAQ Wulfen can ride in FW transports as long as the transport has a Terminator carrying capacity. This opens a lot of options for transport options. I was looking at the Storm Eagle. Is it worth the points?
Assault Ram!!!
Automatically Appended Next Post: Scrap that, it can only take five Wulfen.
Only the Terminators get the Space reduction rule.
Has anyone tried the land raider excelsior? For 428 pts it may be a bit expensive but a Land Raider is 356 pts. For 72 pts your making it a wolf lord (reroll 1's), giving it a 5++, and getting to do some very... you would have to call it unintentional side effects.
Land Raider Excelsior : Armor of Russ relic, Warlord : Beastslayer.
Hello las cannons wounding on 2's, and getting a saga originally looked at as hard to do now suddenly popping easy. Put 3 predators and a rune priest around them for -1 to hit.... thats some scarry dakka. Or give it the saga of the bear for 2+/4++/6+++. Get the -1 off and thats one land raider not going anywhere fast.
Depends on target priorities.
If you have Wulfen or TWC that are more threatening it might survive but what would you put in it that won’t demand attention in its own right.
Msolve wrote: What is the best options for equipping longfangs with?
Missile Launchers and Lascannons seem to work best. Although with the split fire and new strategems Heavy Bolters and Plasma Cannons are fairly viable as well. It all depends on what you want them to do and where they'll be. For long range and max independence I choose the Las and Missiles. Mid range or heavy infantry hunting, I'd bring the Bolters and Plasma and hang out next to Bjorn. Meltas can work too with Cunning of the Wolf however that's kind of one trick pony but you can't beat the fear they cause to your opponent's back line.
Azuza001 wrote: Has anyone tried the land raider excelsior? For 428 pts it may be a bit expensive but a Land Raider is 356 pts. For 72 pts your making it a wolf lord (reroll 1's), giving it a 5++, and getting to do some very... you would have to call it unintentional side effects.
Land Raider Excelsior : Armor of Russ relic, Warlord : Beastslayer.
Hello las cannons wounding on 2's, and getting a saga originally looked at as hard to do now suddenly popping easy. Put 3 predators and a rune priest around them for -1 to hit.... thats some scarry dakka. Or give it the saga of the bear for 2+/4++/6+++. Get the -1 off and thats one land raider not going anywhere fast.
If this remotely takes off they will 110% nerf it just like they did to the Chaplain dread.
Get a hint.
And Landraiders are still complete garbage anyway.
Azuza001 wrote: Has anyone tried the land raider excelsior? For 428 pts it may be a bit expensive but a Land Raider is 356 pts. For 72 pts your making it a wolf lord (reroll 1's), giving it a 5++, and getting to do some very... you would have to call it unintentional side effects.
Land Raider Excelsior : Armor of Russ relic, Warlord : Beastslayer.
Hello las cannons wounding on 2's, and getting a saga originally looked at as hard to do now suddenly popping easy. Put 3 predators and a rune priest around them for -1 to hit.... thats some scarry dakka. Or give it the saga of the bear for 2+/4++/6+++. Get the -1 off and thats one land raider not going anywhere fast.
Yeah, that landraider is impressive with its firepower and resilence. But then watch those Genestealers, warp time Tzaangors, and Harequins fly over the board and charge it, then it is a 400pts dead weight.
Sure you can have other units in front to warp up the Landraider. But after spending 400+pts in this Land Raider, you are not likely to have enough points to bring enough numbers or enough buffs to make enough of them to live long enough to prevent the LR being silenced before it impacted the game enough for its 400+pts.
Except with the new charging rules in the faq you can easily bubble wrap a tank to stop these charges. I use a layered approach with my tanks.
3 predators, hq's, and 2 whirlwinds in the back/center of the board/ with best los for preds.
Mid range infantry (typically grey hunters with plasma)
On the edge is guardsman / scout sentinals.
If the enemy has a force that doesnt come towards me i outflank the grey hunters and use the guard as my bubble wrap. If they are coming at me (because nids do that / orks do that) then i am fine sitting back and letting them come to me.
With the excelsior i am going to change it up a bit. But it should still work. And with the faq changes to charges from flyers you dont have to worry about that lone gargoyle or assault marine jumping over your bubble wrap.
I am not saying my list is a "top teir meta killer" but it does work exceptionally well in my local meta. Enough so that a few people are changing their lists a bit to adapt to it.
Going to be running two, three man, swiftclaws. Leaders with power fists and the others with chain swords. WGBL behind them with Wulfen Stone.
And there'll also be a Gallant charging up somewhere near them so they don't get shot off the board turn one.
The list I'll be running has 10cp. Two are being used before the game begins to get me a second relic and to put my wulfen on the hunt.
So 8cp I think is pretty good for a mono. Gallant is probably going to eat one or two of them for ion shields. Three will likely go to the -1 to hit on the Priest. So that'd leave me three left by probably turn 3. Might use them before then though, the locals don't like my longfangs...and I keep getting a lonewolf lf with a lascannon because of it.
This is what I'm looking at running. Its basically my old midrange list updated for the new book. That list ran pretty well, but this one loses some of the shooting in favor of some new tricks.
So I've been thinking about a SW list to use in smaller games (because that's what we normally play at my FLGS due to time and space constraints, we only have room for 2 permanent 4x4 tables) after my nearly pure CC army got crushed mercilessly in a small tournament a few weeks ago. Here goes:
Batallion:
2x Razorback with twin Assault Cannon
2x 6x Blood Claws
- 2x Wolf Guard Pack Leader with TH/SS
1x 5x Blood Claws
- Pack leader with PF
1x Wolf Lord on Thunderwolf
- TH/SS - Wulfen Stone
- Saga of the Hunter
- WL
1x Rune Priest with Jump Pack
- Runic Axe
- Armor of Russ
- Psychic Hood
- Powers: Stormcaller and Fury of the Wolf Spirits
1x Stormfang Gunship
- Twin Lascannon
- Two Twin Heavy Bolters
Total is 1039 points. I tried to keep it within 1000 points but that didn't work unfortunately :( I can remove the TH/SS from the Wolf Guard pack leaders to get it under 1k but that'll make those squads lose a lot of punch unfortunately. For bigger games the list can be expanded by adding additional Blood Claws to the 5-man squad (these will be on outflank duty through Cunning of the Wolf, the 6-man squads will both be riding the Razorbacks), adding a 3rd Razorback (maybe with Lascannons instead of ACs) or maybe even putting an extra beatstick like Arjac in the Stormfang (it can transport Terminator models) or adding my Wulfen squad into the mix.
Battle plan is simple: Move everything forward, kill as many high priority targets in the first turn and try to protect the Razorbacks and Thunder(wolf)lord with the Rune Priests' Stormcaller power. Then hopefully hit CC in the second turn and go Ork in the fight phase. The Stormfang can react to deepstrikers from T2 onward, and the Razorbacks as well after the Blood Claws have disembarked. The focus will primarily be on killing as much of my opponents' army as possible and score VP through "kill this-and-this" objectives, I tried a more subtle approach of using troops primarily to cap objectives but found it not really working, so now I want to try the Orky way of just krumping everything
So what do you think? I'd like as much feedback as you want to give I'd especially like feedback about whether you guys think the Stormfang is any good in this army because that's the only model I haven't bought yet (I like the model well enough but it's not something I'd buy purely for modeling and painting purposes). Please keep in mind that this list will be used in a local meta that is almost exclusively about shooting, no special houserules or anything but the local players here have a real love for shooty Guard and Marine armies. I've been trying to use a more CC-oriented approach against them with my Wolves (because that's what I like and I think it's more fluffy than pure shooty Wolves) but haven't had much luck, so I've decided to increase the shooting effectiveness of my army. That's also the primary reason for adding the Stormfang, it's a very mobile storm of dakka that can take on a wide variety of units effectively anywhere on the board ranging from MEQ all the way to Land Raiders. Its main purpose will be to kill anything with an anti-tank weapon ASAP. The only thing it doesn't kill efficiently is GEQ but no SW unit can really do that, so yeah. I've also thought about adding Long Fangs but those seem a little fragile to me as well as requiring very careful deployment in order to snipe threats (you can quite easily hide that Manticore from a Long Fang squad but there's no hiding from a Stormfang).
Also another more general question: how do you guys play SW post-codex? I'm having trouble wrapping my head around it. SW have gotten a lot of stuff to use once they're in CC but they've hardly gained anything to actually get there. Sure, there's the Wulfen Stone and the Saga of the Hunter but I still find myself having a lot of trouble to reach CC before I'm shot off the board so I'm unable to give my opponents' army a well-deserved krumping for being cowards and hanging around the backline shooting stuff
Cheers and thanks!
edit: made some changes to the Blood Claw squads after I realized that 4 BC + Wolf Guard leader is illegal.
At 1000 pts i wouldnt invest in the stormfang, thats over a quarter of your points on one unit and it will probably get shot off the board if you dont get first turn easy, especially if you are in a shooty meta.
Your advantage is your only playing on 4×4 and if your going cc thats great.
Your list has potential, and your on the right path i think. Shooting bubble units then moving cc into the hole that they made is a good plan. But a lot of stuff seems to fall into the is it worth that much category. With wolves i find if your spending the points you need to make sure your getting your $$$ worth.
Yeah, advantage of supersonic units is deploying them out of range of heavy guns and then driving them to a great LZ, on 4x4 the former is nearly impossible and terrain & decent screening can make the latter extremely difficult
If i was going to build a list around 1000 pts knowing its a 4×4 table and your looking at close range this is what i would do while trying to keep with your army design.
Hq- your hq's are fine. Slight changes to them though, need to save points wherever we can.
Wolf lord - Thunderwolf, storm shield, thunder hammer, warlord, wulfen trait, wulfen stone : 154 pts
Rune priest- Armor of russ, runic staff, tempest wrath, fury of wolf spirits, jump pack : 122 pts
Troops - got to show the bloodclaws that love! But you dont want to move those Razorbacks too close, they are fire support. So in keeping with your theme you can do this
Leaves you about 220 pts. There are many ways to go with the remaining points. Wulfen, thunderwolf calvery, or wolf guard on bikes being the 3 ones that jump out at me.
Wulfen would give you anti tank.
Thunderwolves would give you anti horde.
But i prefer the 5 man wolf guard on bikes.
Elite:
Wolf guard on bikes: 5 men, all w/ storm shields and storm bolters.
This gives you 40 shots at 12", which you will almost always be able to pull off thanks to their speed of 14". But thats not all, your getting t5 and 3++ saves with all that firepower. Run your wolf lord on thunderwolf with them and try to make sure there is always room for him to heroicly intervene and you have a smash squad able to take on hordes and deliver your lord to crush whatever big target he gets near.
Down side to this list is a distinct lack of anti tank. Keep that in mind with your local meta.
I just wanted to share this list/tactics I've been using lately. I've had incredible success with it so far so I figured it would be worth mentioning-
I've been running a space wolf battalion lead by a jump wolf lord with hammer+shield+wulfenstone, jump rune priest with psychic hood, runic axe and armor of russ, 2 grey hunter squads with bolters/chainsword, 2 intercessor squads, 2 wulfen squads with 2 axe/2 shield,
An airwing with 2 stormwolves with heavy Bolters, 1 stormhawk with lastalon and sky hammer,
And a catachan battalion of 2 company commanders with power fists, and 3 infantry squads with a plasma gun in each
I start with the characters and wulfen inside the stormwolves and the grey hunters on the ground. In my first turn I've disembarked the characters 3" in front, embarked the grey hunters, moved the flyers up 20 in a bubble and move up/advance the wolf lord and rune priest to be as close as possible. Getting a spell off with the rune priest has let me activate cloaked by the storm and have all the flyers be -2 to hit with re roll 1s from the wolf lord.
If you have the models, I really REAAALLY can't recommend wulfen and our flyers enough right now. The storm hawk with keen senses is just awesome.
Thanks for the suggestions everyone! You don't seem to recommend the Stormfang, primarily because it's vulnerable and expensive. I can understand your point about the Stormfang being relatively vulnerable on a 4x4 because one of it's biggest advantages is the ability to deploy it out of range of long-range antitank; the cost argument I disagree with however. EverySW Heavy Support/ anti-tank option costs an arm and a leg in points, that's just an unfortunate truth we have to live with as a Marine army. Still, I've been thinking about some changes, with the added benefit that the changes I'm proposing will make the entire army consists of models that I already own so it won't cost me any real-life points
Batallion:
2x Razorback with twin Assault Cannon
2x 6x Grey Hunters (start in Razorback)
- 1x GH with Plasma Gun in each squad
- 1x Wolf Guard Pack Leader with combi-plasma in each squad
- Everyone has chainswords
1x 6x Grey Hunters (squad can be expanded in bigger games, these guys are the outflankers)
- 1x GH with Meltagun
- 1x Wolf Guard pack leader with combi-melta.
- Everyone has chainswords
1x Wolf Lord on Thunderwolf
- TH/SS - Wulfen Stone
- Saga of the Hunter
- WL
1x Rune Priest with Jump Pack
- Runic Axe
- Armor of Russ
- Psychic Hood
- Powers: Stormcaller and Fury of the Wolf Spirits (might also go for Tempests' Wrath for that -1 to hit to plasma users).
Comments: Changed the Bloodclaws to Grey Hunters with some AT/ TEQ punch. Squads in Razorbacks have plasma because they'll have easy access to the Wolf Lords reroll aura (at least until he charges off into melee), outflanking squad has melta because they will likely not have access to reroll aura's. Ranged troops makes some extra room for an additional CC units so that's where the Wulfen come in. Would've liked them to go wih 4x TH/SS with the new rules but I modeled two of them with Axes so that'll have to do. Still going to be >1000 points I'm afraid so I'll have to cut some options for 1k point games. Thoughts?
Ooh Smash Priest!
Give Wulfen stone to Rune Priest, keep him near the Wulfen, cast the Wolf Spirits, bash your enemy into the ground then use the fight twice stratagem to do it again.
Dakka Wolf wrote: Ooh Smash Priest!
Give Wulfen stone to Rune Priest, keep him near the Wulfen, cast the Wolf Spirits, bash your enemy into the ground then use the fight twice stratagem to do it again.
The Wulfen buff for bonus number of attacks do not work when the guy charged. And for that smash Rune Priest, if he is still alive and enemy did not fall back their survivors from him after the turn that RP charged. The opponent is either doing something seriously wrong or had some really bad dice rolling.
By the way, 20 attacks sounds amazing, but it may not be that devastating unless what you face is the underdogs such as space marine infantry / bikers not taking a stormshield or have a hidden powerfist as well as Necrons warriors / Immortals.
Taking the fight against Genestealers as example, that 20 attacks on the charge by RP is only going to kill about 8 to 9 of them. Granted, if there are no bloodclaws nearby to help him, the RP will not survive the rest 11 Genestealers which can still dish 4 attacks each. Another example would be striking a target with T7/8 Sv3+ a total of 8 runic axe attacks will result in around 3 wounds, the 12 additional Str5 AP-3 will result in around another 3 wounds, if it had a 5++ it is only 2 wounds. So that result in a total of 5 to 6 wounds.
Dakka Wolf wrote: Ooh Smash Priest!
Give Wulfen stone to Rune Priest, keep him near the Wulfen, cast the Wolf Spirits, bash your enemy into the ground then use the fight twice stratagem to do it again.
The Wulfen buff for bonus number of attacks do not work when the guy charged. And for that smash Rune Priest, if he is still alive and enemy did not fall back their survivors from him after the turn that RP charged. The opponent is either doing something seriously wrong or had some really bad dice rolling.
By the way, 20 attacks sounds amazing, but it may not be that devastating unless what you face is the underdogs such as space marine infantry / bikers not taking a stormshield or have a hidden powerfist as well as Necrons warriors / Immortals.
Taking the fight against Genestealers as example, that 20 attacks on the charge by RP is only going to kill about 8 to 9 of them. Granted, if there are no bloodclaws nearby to help him, the RP will not survive the rest 11 Genestealers which can still dish 4 attacks each. Another example would be striking a target with T7/8 Sv3+ a total of 8 runic axe attacks will result in around 3 wounds, the 12 additional Str5 AP-3 will result in around another 3 wounds, if it had a 5++ it is only 2 wounds. So that result in a total of 5 to 6 wounds.
I use my Wulfen for tank hunting, mr Priest is for clearing bubble wrap, finishing tougher bubble wrap after the Wulfen have had a good chew or putting the first few wounds on said tank after the Wulfen have removed the bubble wrap. If my Rune Priest is attacking a unit of Genestealers by his lonesome I’m beyond desperate.
Dakka Wolf wrote: Ooh Smash Priest!
Give Wulfen stone to Rune Priest, keep him near the Wulfen, cast the Wolf Spirits, bash your enemy into the ground then use the fight twice stratagem to do it again.
The Wulfen buff for bonus number of attacks do not work when the guy charged. And for that smash Rune Priest, if he is still alive and enemy did not fall back their survivors from him after the turn that RP charged. The opponent is either doing something seriously wrong or had some really bad dice rolling.
By the way, 20 attacks sounds amazing, but it may not be that devastating unless what you face is the underdogs such as space marine infantry / bikers not taking a stormshield or have a hidden powerfist as well as Necrons warriors / Immortals.
Taking the fight against Genestealers as example, that 20 attacks on the charge by RP is only going to kill about 8 to 9 of them. Granted, if there are no bloodclaws nearby to help him, the RP will not survive the rest 11 Genestealers which can still dish 4 attacks each. Another example would be striking a target with T7/8 Sv3+ a total of 8 runic axe attacks will result in around 3 wounds, the 12 additional Str5 AP-3 will result in around another 3 wounds, if it had a 5++ it is only 2 wounds. So that result in a total of 5 to 6 wounds.
That is not entirely accurate. It only doesn't work if he charged while in range of the ability. Which is 6 or 12". Not too hard to stay out of if the RP has a jump pack and Wulfen are quick, so just position them correctly and when piling it, move in closer to get the buffs.
Don't forget that the RP, as a character, can spend CP to attack again when dead. So either way he will smash something 20 to 40 times with all the buffs going off.
I was reading something about making the RP the Warlord and giving him Beastslayer. You roll up to a big target, say a DP or even Morty and smash them in the face with 10 to a potential 40 attacks and you will end up doing some damage to something. Especially with the +1 to wound on monsters.
Northern85Star wrote: Wulfen stone doesnt stack with curse of the wulfen (kill), so the stone works EXACTLY like the wulfen aura, just with a 3” range.
So only take a wulfen stone if you dont plan on wulfen being nearby.
Northern85Star wrote: Wulfen stone doesnt stack with curse of the wulfen (kill), so the stone works EXACTLY like the wulfen aura, just with a 3” range.
So only take a wulfen stone if you dont plan on wulfen being nearby.
Crap, I’ve got apologies to make now.
The warlord trait does stack though if the WL unlocks the Saga! Which is pretty cool!
I'm playing in a team tournament nov 3 and I'm trying to get some tactics in order. I'm anticipating hordes of orcs since it will be hot off the heels of the codex drop. I plan on using to Rune priests as my HQ . The first priest will be the warlord with saga of the wolfkin, armor of Russ, and freki/Geri spell. The other priest will have the wulfen stone and will be close support for the warlord. This will give the warlord 11 attacks which I intend to attack twice giving him 22 attacks and 33 if he dies and I use that strat and 33 if he dies and I use the other strat. My question is if I consolidate out of combat with the unit I kill into another do I then designate the new unit with the armor . So I'm asking is it possible for two different units to have been affected by the armor in the same turn.
TheunlikelyGamer wrote: I'm playing in a team tournament nov 3 and I'm trying to get some tactics in order. I'm anticipating hordes of orcs since it will be hot off the heels of the codex drop. I plan on using to Rune priests as my HQ . The first priest will be the warlord with saga of the wolfkin, armor of Russ, and freki/Geri spell. The other priest will have the wulfen stone and will be close support for the warlord. This will give the warlord 11 attacks which I intend to attack twice giving him 22 attacks and 33 if he dies and I use that strat and 33 if he dies and I use the other strat. My question is if I consolidate out of combat with the unit I kill into another do I then designate the new unit with the armor . So I'm asking is it possible for two different units to have been affected by the armor in the same turn.
Have you considered reading your codex?
Armor of Russ is very clear when it applies.
And getting to attack 3 times is extremely rare and will basically never happen, again for reasons detailed if you read the relevant stratagems in the codex.
Its 22 attacks pretty much all the time! you survive end phase attack again = 22.
die pay cp attack again = 22!
Only time you might ever get triple is if you charged a bunch a of deathguard stuff, one of which is a daemon prince with suppurating plate.
You attack twice and 2nd time you attack prince he blocks and kills you with the mw reflection ability, then you could activate again.
Northern85Star wrote: Wulfen stone doesnt stack with curse of the wulfen (kill), so the stone works EXACTLY like the wulfen aura, just with a 3” range.
So only take a wulfen stone if you dont plan on wulfen being nearby.
Crap, I’ve got apologies to make now.
The warlord trait does stack though if the WL unlocks the Saga! Which is pretty cool!
Yeah, Sagas are brilliant when they go off, except Saga of the Bear. You’d think if you have to activate it you should get +1 to existing feel no pain saves so it can stack or a 5+ Or even a re-rollable 6+ rather than just a crappy 6+.
Nobody else has to activate their warlord trait so why is that one so...plain?
Northern85Star wrote: Wulfen stone doesnt stack with curse of the wulfen (kill), so the stone works EXACTLY like the wulfen aura, just with a 3” range.
So only take a wulfen stone if you dont plan on wulfen being nearby.
Crap, I’ve got apologies to make now.
The warlord trait does stack though if the WL unlocks the Saga! Which is pretty cool!
Yeah, Sagas are brilliant when they go off, except Saga of the Bear. You’d think if you have to activate it you should get +1 to existing feel no pain saves so it can stack or a 5+ Or even a re-rollable 6+ rather than just a crappy 6+.
Nobody else has to activate their warlord trait so why is that one so...plain?
most warlord traits don't have the option of becoming a bubble. I see what they're going for with this, and I suspect we'll see other codices follow suit after this.
Here is a quick stab at a 1k point list for local friendly-competitive play. Based on the list someone posted above, and some of the general tips from this thread. Looking for tweaks and playstyle advice.
Battalion Detachment:
Hq:
Wolf Lord on Thunderwolf (140pts)
-Frost Sword
-SS - Saga of the Hunter
-WL
Rune Pries (131pts)
-Jump Pack
-Psychic Hood
-Runic Axe
-Storm Bolter
-Wulfen Stone
-Fury of the Wolf Spirits
-Storm Caller
Northern85Star wrote: Your wulfen would be 231 pts instrad of 260. Might be able to get a cyberwolf or two.
Your list lacks heavy hitters though. IK is ging to demolish you.
Presumably his local player base doesn't include any donkey-caves who'd take a fething Imperial Knight to a 1k game
Some potential swaps:
Change out the wolf lord on the mount for one on a jump pack with TH/SS. Change out the las razorback for a rhino. Remove the Wulfen. Add a 5 man LF squad with 3xlas and 1x heavy bolter for the ablative wound. Add a squad of TWC all with shields and the leader with a frost sword.
Put the no plasGH squad in the rhino and rush it up the board, the enemey will likely split fire between the TWC and LF’s. Use the other two GH squads to take objectives and use the razorback as needed. The two HQ’s can hop around on their packs as needed.
Northern85Star wrote: Your wulfen would be 231 pts instrad of 260. Might be able to get a cyberwolf or two.
Your list lacks heavy hitters though. IK is ging to demolish you.
Well, a properly equipped Wulfen squad krumps an IK pretty hard should they manage to get in CC. But yeah, rather unlikely that people will bring an Questoris or Dominus class IK to an 1k game (at least outside of a tournament setting). Armiger Helverins you'll likely need to be prepared for however.
Finally got some time to look into our hobby, and during my absence we got the codex.
Just to confirm if my initial feelings are correct; we are decent mid-field faction that can do lot of different things? Because I think our roster is somewhat flexible, and there are ways to do different lists to be semi-competetive.
I think the real sad thing here was we just got added into Primaris line, but no other new options or models. Bit of a letdown, because our character really need some updating dont you think?
You have it figured out. There are some amazing tricks we can pull off, and if you use wolves as part of a larger imperial force you can really do some damage, but as a just wolf force we are good, but not amazing.
Biggest issue is this edition is all about shooting and hordes, with knight forces being meta breakers. Space marines cost too much to be a horde army and cc isnt as reliable thanks to "i will just walk out of cc so everything can shoot your cc unit" so you either have to engage on multiple fronts at once to really not leave the enemy many units to shoot with or hope your cc super unit can survive.
Azuza001 wrote: You have it figured out. There are some amazing tricks we can pull off, and if you use wolves as part of a larger imperial force you can really do some damage, but as a just wolf force we are good, but not amazing.
Biggest issue is this edition is all about shooting and hordes, with knight forces being meta breakers. Space marines cost too much to be a horde army and cc isnt as reliable thanks to "i will just walk out of cc so everything can shoot your cc unit" so you either have to engage on multiple fronts at once to really not leave the enemy many units to shoot with or hope your cc super unit can survive.
I feel you. Ive seen most lists running lot of bodies!
My love for terminators is hurt, dont see any way of wielding them.
The best way for CC units to survive is "wrap tricks" and those aren't easy to pull off with something like Space Marines (or Wolves for that matter). Generally it helps to have a large unit like Tzaangors, Ork Boyz, or Cultists if you want to try to wrap units and prevent them from falling back, and then finishing them in CC on your opponent's turn. Blood Claws could maybe do it if they don't get shot up on the way in. Wulfen are just too killy to make that happen.
ZergSmasher wrote: The best way for CC units to survive is "wrap tricks" and those aren't easy to pull off with something like Space Marines (or Wolves for that matter). Generally it helps to have a large unit like Tzaangors, Ork Boyz, or Cultists if you want to try to wrap units and prevent them from falling back, and then finishing them in CC on your opponent's turn. Blood Claws could maybe do it if they don't get shot up on the way in. Wulfen are just too killy to make that happen.
Wulfen should go after the big nasty monsters / tanks anyway. So if you take a 6-7 strong or stronger unit it is still possible to warp it up had it not been killed them in the first round. Just shame those real powerful ones of the Tank / Monsters actually can fly, so warpping them up is useless.
TBH, SW is a mid-tier army no doubt. SW is defintely a better army compare to bottom tier of vanilla Space Marine and Necrons, and far better than GK sure. But we are more likely a lower-mid-tier army, on par with Dark Angel and Deathwatch probably, and the upper-mid-tier should belong to the Custodes, BA, Nidz, and maybe Tau. Generally speaking, we don't have the high-body counts, and we got more overcosted stuff than we got rightfully priced or under costed units while most of our foot soilders are still squishy like any space marine variant in 8th edition. We have some good stratagem but due to the fact that we got overpriced troops we cannot spam both CP and take enough "effective" units, and those stratagem is not cheap and will burn through your limited CPs faster than you can imagine. The most CP I took in a 2000 game was taking a Battalion (Bjorn, 2 Rune Priest and 3 min troops), a Vanguard (Rune Priest, Wuflen and 2 Ven Dreads) and an Outrider (WGBL on wolf, min number of TWC and 2 Cyberwolves) giving me 11 CP, and what happen is I burn all the CP within 2 turns. Basically it was the outflanking Wulfen and Blood Claw ate 2 before the game started, 3 CP for Cloak in Storm after my Rune Priest casted the power in my first turn. Into 2nd turn, 1 CP for the enhanced living lightening psychic power, 1 CP for reroll a rolled for the charging wulfen to get them in, followed by 3 CP to make them fight twice. 10CP down , and a reroll saving throws for my Dreads 4++ against enemy lascannon mixed in, there gone all my CPs.
Anybody use any of the Space Wolves’ flyers?
I’ve been looking at the Stormfang, the Stormwolf and the Interceptor as harassment units.
The Interceptor is tempting for its cost and weaponry but the Stormwolf can carry a pack of Wulfen into my opponent’s ranks before they can react. Both are really good killers of soft targets.
A flyer full of Wulfen is such a clear high priority target that no army worth their salt is not going to let that thing live past 1st turn. If you go second you can kiss that flyer goodbye and footslog with your Wulfen.
A flyer full of Bloodclaws might make it, if you present a more convincing priority target for their antitank. Which in a mono SW build is pretty difficult. An imperial Knight might be such a target though if you're into those.
What I'm saying is the flyers seem great on paper and all but in the end they're just too fragile to transport anything of value. An empty Stormfang might do some work though.
Stormfangs empty are very effective thanks to their points drop, but they still die to concentrated firepower. And at 250+ pts each that can still take up a large chunk of points.
Weazel wrote: A flyer full of Wulfen is such a clear high priority target that no army worth their salt is not going to let that thing live past 1st turn. If you go second you can kiss that flyer goodbye and footslog with your Wulfen.
A flyer full of Bloodclaws might make it, if you present a more convincing priority target for their antitank. Which in a mono SW build is pretty difficult. An imperial Knight might be such a target though if you're into those.
What I'm saying is the flyers seem great on paper and all but in the end they're just too fragile to transport anything of value. An empty Stormfang might do some work though.
I have the attention getters, I’m actually hoping that a Stormwolf can share the attention with or without the cargo.
I’m afraid I don’t have Blood Claws in this list of but there are fifteen more Wulfen so a full twenty, Bjorn and a Chaplain Dread - both packing Twin LasCanons. I have gone very Elite in response to a majority of lists in the competition in my area being three Imperial Knights and a handful of Imperial Guard. I need something for thinning or removing screening units so that my Wulfen aren’t being held back in the shooting range by passive, sacrificial roadblocks. The question I’m asking would be is optional transport capability worth the extra twenty points over the Stormfang or eighty points over the Interceptor? Are either of them threatening enough by themselves to draw fire away from twenty Wulfen?
No, i would go stormfang. Me and a local friend have different opinions on the stormfang, i say make it as cheap as possible so its loss doesnt hurt as much, he says give it the quad melta so once you hit 24" range / 12" range you can do some serious anti tank work.
Azuza001 wrote: No, i would go stormfang. Me and a local friend have different opinions on the stormfang, i say make it as cheap as possible so its loss doesnt hurt as much, he says give it the quad melta so once you hit 24" range / 12" range you can do some serious anti tank work.
I think I’m on your side in this case, take the Heavy Bolters and shred some squishy targets. The Multi-Meltas are either going to hit shields or be overkill. Why is the Interceptor no good?
Azuza001 wrote: No, i would go stormfang. Me and a local friend have different opinions on the stormfang, i say make it as cheap as possible so its loss doesnt hurt as much, he says give it the quad melta so once you hit 24" range / 12" range you can do some serious anti tank work.
I think I’m on your side in this case, take the Heavy Bolters and shred some squishy targets. The Multi-Meltas are either going to hit shields or be overkill. Why is the Interceptor no good?
Eh, 4 multi-meltas targeting vehicles/monsters aren't that great. Assuming a t7 target. 4 shots hitting on 3+ (8/3 hit), wounding on 3+ (16/9), then doing on average 4.5 damage in MM range results in expecting 8 wounds. Assuming no save or penalties for shooting. Rerolling a failed hit/wound helps make the kill, but they are expensive for what they do.
I agree that it's much better to buy the HB. Invest those leftover points into a longfang las team for better threat coverage.
I tipycally bring the Gunship to the battle field, at 259 points it's a steal. 5 WG with storm bolters and chainswords inside, which are only 85 points but a decent min squad. I also bring Arjac and Wulfen/Wulfen Stone pretty much everytime so even those 5 dudes could do very well against infantries. Otherwise I'd run it empty or even with 5 Grey Hunters inside.
The Stormwolf with Wulfen inside is a priority target, and Wulfen are already effective by outflanking. 15 Blood Claws could be a better option.
The most important thing about the two flyers is to avoid the most expensive weapons on them. Lascannons and heavy bolters are already fine, combined with the main frost weapon. Avoid meltas.
I've been running a Stormwolf with a Rune Priest, WGBL, WP and five wulfen with hammers inside. Turn one nuking has not happened yet.
Rune Priest gets out turn one, goes three inches and then moves up behind the stormwolf. Casts his stuff and grants that -1 to hit and then gives an enemy unit -1 to hit.
Works pretty good IMO, when backed up by a Crusader / Gallant and two helverins marching forward too.
Waste time on the wulfen pinata or shoot something more potent?
CatGotYourLas wrote: I've been running a Stormwolf with a Rune Priest, WGBL, WP and five wulfen with hammers inside. Turn one nuking has not happened yet.
Rune Priest gets out turn one, goes three inches and then moves up behind the stormwolf. Casts his stuff and grants that -1 to hit and then gives an enemy unit -1 to hit.
Works pretty good IMO, when backed up by a Crusader / Gallant and two helverins marching forward too.
Waste time on the wulfen pinata or shoot something more potent?
Like I said above, a Knight or a few are definitely going to help it survive. However in a mono SW build your Wulfen flyer is going to be toast. Also I would think there were better uses for 3cp in a Knight heavy list than using them on the -1 hit bubble.
CatGotYourLas wrote: I've been running a Stormwolf with a Rune Priest, WGBL, WP and five wulfen with hammers inside. Turn one nuking has not happened yet.
Rune Priest gets out turn one, goes three inches and then moves up behind the stormwolf. Casts his stuff and grants that -1 to hit and then gives an enemy unit -1 to hit.
Works pretty good IMO, when backed up by a Crusader / Gallant and two helverins marching forward too.
Waste time on the wulfen pinata or shoot something more potent?
Like I said above, a Knight or a few are definitely going to help it survive. However in a mono SW build your Wulfen flyer is going to be toast. Also I would think there were better uses for 3cp in a Knight heavy list than using them on the -1 hit bubble.
With that -2 to hit it still takes massive fire. People in my meta know what wulfen do. Since I'm the only SW player running wulfen they know I like this trick. So it's fun making them work for it. They definitely know the wulfen are scary, even if there's no good armored target for me to aim them at they'll still prioritize them over the knights.
And I agree. Even with 11 CP I find there little room to take CP away from the knights. Especially since House Raven stratagem eats so much CP. And RIS being a life saver on the crusader.
I have a feeling that with chapter approved possibly dropping next week for pre orders, we will have many things to rethink and is rumored that terminators will get a fix...
lonewolf81 wrote: I have a feeling that with chapter approved possibly dropping next week for pre orders, we will have many things to rethink and is rumored that terminators will get a fix...
I am not gonna to rely on that..... it is more likely the Terminators get another round of points drop, hoping their powerfists as well...
We will see. Personally would love to see terminators becoming a viable option.
It is a bit off-topic, but do you guys think we will see 8th edition lasting longer given they have started to sell these Chapter Approved books? Because I think if we get new edition in 2019-2020, then these books are pretty much just another way to milk bit of money... I just personally dislike them putting balance updates behind paywall.
I remember you had to wait years in previous editions to get an update for your army,sometimes editions skipped several armies. At least now there is support to the hobby, and support always comes with a cost.
8th edition feels the most balanced one but it needs some tweeks in the assault phase (boosts) to become ideal.
Power fists won't drop in points, they've already been halved one year ago. WG termies could get a price reduction, maybe.
But I think Wolf/Frost Claws are strongly overcosted, not P.Fists. Forst swords and axes should drop be cheaper too. Fists are also not particularly needed since T. Hammers are more efficient and serve the same role. It's the anti infantry melee loadout that should be cheaper generally speaking for SW, the TWC would also benefit from that.
lonewolf81 wrote: I remember you had to wait years in previous editions to get an update for your army,sometimes editions skipped several armies. At least now there is support to the hobby, and support always comes with a cost.
8th edition feels the most balanced one but it needs some tweeks in the assault phase (boosts) to become ideal.
I think you kind of got me wrong. 8th edition is best so far. I just dont agree or accept that with current way of selling rules, if they still keep changing edition with same pace. Because then we just have the same cluster of rules but more books to RE-buy every three years. It wouldnt make sense.
Personally I hope we stick to 8th edition longer than we did with previous ones. Then this setup of books make sense, and is actually consumer friendly.
@Blackie could be, but if we get point reduction in melee weapons, and that combined with our melee abilities in units, it sounds like overly strong buff. I dont see us struggling dealing with infantry by melee. I might miss something here, but TWC seems fine as is point economically wise.
I'll gladly pay for yearly updates if they actually make bold changes for the sake of balance. I really hope that another company independent or semi-independent from GW's financial incentives would make the rules. I mean there might be certain kits that sell well and make good profit leading to reluctance to nerf them. *ahem* Imperial Knights *ahem*
Since i got my codex last of the armies ib my meta, what worked before still works now - except that i make my wolf priest warlord for a 9” re-roll all hits in CC (insanely powerful with wulfen, who attacks again when they die) and a 9” Ld boost. I then give him frostfury, because i only want him in melees that i am sure to win. So basically nothing new units wise.
Problems came when lists with the new knights entered the meta. That relic flamer is as bad as it sounds, and our lists definitely HAS to be able to take it down from range, even with its 3++ from rotating ion shields.
My plan is to go the beastslayer chaplain dreadnought route with Björn, both with twin-lascannon. Not sure three predators are worth it, but then im going with long fangs (starting out of LOS). Want to get the deed off T1, and watch IK players weep as the dreadnoughts hit and wound on 2s, with rerolls. If he charges, they can both HI 6”, and hurt even more in CC.
I dont list tailor though, so whatever i come up with still has to be able to beat the rest of the meta, which is most often TS/tzeentch and DG/nurgle.
See, i was all in favor for how gw was going to do things this time. The quick faqs. The 2 big faqs a year. Chapter approved. Actually listing and fixing stuff.
Then the debacle of big faq2 and dark matter crystal just popped up. Something that was originally able to be done (dmc + warp time) that big faq 1 fixed (using dmc is like using warp gate, it makes the units count as reinforcements and moving for heavy weapons and a seperate answer saying you cant warptime units that come into the game as reinforcements on the turn they come in in such a way) and then big faq 2 modified the answer by just saying yes to the main question (do they count as moving for heavy weapons) and compeltly removed the reference to reinforcements so you can again dark matter crystal then warp time.
But it only became common knowledge that this changed again, it was way to easy to miss because it was already answered in the first faq, they didnt magenta it for being a new ruling, they just changed the answer.
I really dont like having to go through each faq to verify that an answer didn't get changed like that. Its silly. It wasnt needed. But there you have it.....
Rant over.
As for are 3 preds worth it? Omg yes. I run 3 normally with 2 whirlwinds and a wgbl/wolf lord/rune priest/ longfang squad as my castle. 2 preds get auto cannons / lascannons, 3rd is just autocannon. That castle is a huge pain to deal with thanks to all the rerolls plus getting stormcaster off and the -1 to hit.
Ilgoth wrote: We will see. Personally would love to see terminators becoming a viable option.
It is a bit off-topic, but do you guys think we will see 8th edition lasting longer given they have started to sell these Chapter Approved books? Because I think if we get new edition in 2019-2020, then these books are pretty much just another way to milk bit of money... I just personally dislike them putting balance updates behind paywall.
If it was -only- balance updates then I would get it. A lot of the balance stuff will be so well known, along with the points updates, you probably wouldn't need to buy it. I like CA because it'll be an evolving concept that is a better version of the expansions from stuff like 7th. We got a whole host of new missions last time, I expect some more this time maybe? The Sisters of Battle beta codex will be neat. It has the potential to be jam-packed with goodies for everyone.
See, i was all in favor for how gw was going to do things this time. The quick faqs. The 2 big faqs a year. Chapter approved. Actually listing and fixing stuff.
Then the debacle of big faq2 and dark matter crystal just popped up. Something that was originally able to be done (dmc + warp time) that big faq 1 fixed (using dmc is like using warp gate, it makes the units count as reinforcements and moving for heavy weapons and a seperate answer saying you cant warptime units that come into the game as reinforcements on the turn they come in in such a way) and then big faq 2 modified the answer by just saying yes to the main question (do they count as moving for heavy weapons) and compeltly removed the reference to reinforcements so you can again dark matter crystal then warp time.
But it only became common knowledge that this changed again, it was way to easy to miss because it was already answered in the first faq, they didnt magenta it for being a new ruling, they just changed the answer.
I really dont like having to go through each faq to verify that an answer didn't get changed like that. Its silly. It wasnt needed. But there you have it.....
Rant over.
As for are 3 preds worth it? Omg yes. I run 3 normally with 2 whirlwinds and a wgbl/wolf lord/rune priest/ longfang squad as my castle. 2 preds get auto cannons / lascannons, 3rd is just autocannon. That castle is a huge pain to deal with thanks to all the rerolls plus getting stormcaster off and the -1 to hit.
That's a huge points sink. What is the rest of your army? Are the whirlwinds the anti-infantry ones?
Rest of the army is 25-30 grey hunters in 3 squada, all with plasma, with a wolf lord. All outflank for a side assault.
I give up points / objectives turn 1, its a given, to get my opponent to spread out. I then focus on an area to clear out and make room for my grey hunters turn 2 to outflank in and do their jobs overcharging and blasting.
I have played this army in 5 games, only lost once. It is expensive to run this way but super effective. Only list i lost to was an ad mech that ran 20 of those damn gattling robots and he got first turn. Yeah.....
Rest of the army is 25-30 grey hunters in 3 squada, all with plasma, with a wolf lord. All outflank for a side assault.
I give up points / objectives turn 1, its a given, to get my opponent to spread out. I then focus on an area to clear out and make room for my grey hunters turn 2 to outflank in and do their jobs overcharging and blasting.
I have played this army in 5 games, only lost once. It is expensive to run this way but super effective. Only list i lost to was an ad mech that ran 20 of those damn gattling robots and he got first turn. Yeah.....
Looks like you haven't run into those tough army yet. i.e. Eldar who can easily destroy mutiple of your tanks turn 1, Harlequins and Kraken Genestealers that can fly over the board in supersonic speed and charge you turn 1 from 24+ inches away and your tanks are silenced for the whole game. Stack -1 to hit Aeldrai make your pittiful number of shot that was supposed to be accurate hit worse than orks.
I have not played eldar yet but i have faced kraken tyranids. Game was an epic slugfest. I lost my castle in that game by turn 4 (all tanks and whirlwinds destroyed) but i won the game thanks to outflank. The short of it went he charged up, i denyed onslaught so his hormagaunts couldnt charge in, he hit 1 10 man squad of grey hunters with genestealers (only outflanked 2 squads and krom that game, used 3rd squad as buffer / screen) and then i unloaded on his genestealers/ gaunts. Turn 2 he got his carnifexes into range, but then i outflanked in the exact opposite corner and took 2 objectives from his back line (he was using rippers to hold them). He had to turn around half his army to deal with the marines.
End of game i tabled him and had 4 grey hunters and krom left. Krom actually finished off old one eye in cc that game, he is always worth the extra few points in my book over a normal wolf lord.
Keen senses - cough up one command point per unit you intend on shooting with and ignore all the Aeldarai modifier shenanigans, try not to be too smug about it.
Eldar and Harlequins are pretty much a case of first turn wins. They’re glass canons, if you get first turn it’s pretty easy to lay waste to them in much the same way they would to anyone else.
For the price of a Storm Fang you could probably grab two minimal squads of Long Fangs with four Missile Launchers each. Your tactics are the next thing - The gunship is on the field from turn one and mobile, evasive and harder to damage, it is a priority target but if it survives it can be used as transport. The Long Fangs can be put straight on deck or be put in reserves, can be moved but aren’t mobile, are more accurate when you aim at a single target because they re-roll ones and being two units means you can mitigate the mobility issue to some degree.
I agree. Either go vehicle heavy or none. One tactic i did for fun at a tournament in my local meta that i didnt care if i won was 10 rhinos all with 5 man blood claw teams in them. Each blood claw team had a power fist. Then i took 3 wolf guard battle leaders with frost axes and jump packs and 2 wolf lords with relic blades and jump packs. I actually won 2 out of 3 games because the list was so stupid it worked. Nothing on the table of value to shoot anti infantry shots at until a tank pops and then my opponents had to kill 5 rhinos to slow the army down.
In this edition you have to run multiple threats or no good targets at all. Wolves can do both when you go all in.
Azuza001 wrote: I agree. Either go vehicle heavy or none. One tactic i did for fun at a tournament in my local meta that i didnt care if i won was 10 rhinos all with 5 man blood claw teams in them. Each blood claw team had a power fist. Then i took 3 wolf guard battle leaders with frost axes and jump packs and 2 wolf lords with relic blades and jump packs. I actually won 2 out of 3 games because the list was so stupid it worked. Nothing on the table of value to shoot anti infantry shots at until a tank pops and then my opponents had to kill 5 rhinos to slow the army down.
In this edition you have to run multiple threats or no good targets at all. Wolves can do both when you go all in.
Well, I'm starting to think that transports are of paramount importance to SW anyway. We have 2 excellent troop choices, but both cannot really do work beyond 12" and Claws are only really worth their while in CC. Solution: cram everything you don't outlfank with in Rhino's and Razorbacks and race up the field. Use Razorbacks with Twin Assault Cannons to thin screens for your heavy-duty melee dudes.
Azuza001 wrote: If only drop pods were not so damn expensive. Every time i want to take one i know rhinos are just better. :( maybe chapter approved will fix it?
Chapter approved rumors/leaks has them at 65 Which is pretty nice, especially against smite-heavy armies or ones you can steal objectives from using them.
Looking for your opinion. Which do you think is better, a Razorback with twin assault cannons or a unit of 3 Aggressors. I keep going back and forth trying to decide.
Ragnar69 wrote: If you don't take at least 4 vehicles you shouldn't take any at all.
I agree but also units like Wolf Guard Bikes and TWC help in mechanized lists since they also compete to soak the anti tank. The Gunship and 3 Razorbacks are always in my lists.
Just thought of something: Redemptor Dread with Macro Plasma Incinerator and Keen Senses. Not that it's meta-breaking but I think it's a nice little thing to help it move up the field.
yellowfever wrote: Looking for your opinion. Which do you think is better, a Razorback with twin assault cannons or a unit of 3 Aggressors. I keep going back and forth trying to decide.
What do you want out of that unit? Their functions are completely different. The Razorback is an offensive transport/ medium fire support vehicle while Aggressors are meant to hold ground. You can use Aggressors offensively but that requires getting them up the field in a Repulsor first.
Azuza001 wrote: If only drop pods were not so damn expensive. Every time i want to take one i know rhinos are just better. :( maybe chapter approved will fix it?
Chapter approved rumors/leaks has them at 65 Which is pretty nice, especially against smite-heavy armies or ones you can steal objectives from using them.
Might be nice to stuff a plasma squad + a cheap Lord in them in that case.
Anyone tried a list build around the living storm stratagem? Looks like we have got enough offensive spells. 3 runepriests and a culexus (-2 on opponents deny rolls), 3 x smite, jaws of the workd wolf, murderous hurricane and living lightning.
I always like to see whirlwinds in lists. I dont like powerfists when thunder hammers are an option though, i would drop one of the fists from the thunderwolves and jump the other 2 up to hammers. The flat 3 dmg from 2 hammers will almost always be better than what you could get from 3 fists.
2 hammers from twc will be 5 attacks assuming you gave one to the leader. Thats going to be on average 3 to 4 hits, lets assume 4 for this math. Str 8 will mean wounding most things on 2's or 3's just like the power fist. Lets say your hitting something t7, like a dreadnought. So 4 hits, probably 3 wounds, 0 saved for 9 dmg.
Power fists would get you 7 attacks, still hitting on 3's. For sake of argument lets say you got lucky and got 6 hits. Wounding on 3's you get probably 4 wounds. No saves again for this situation, and doing 1d3 dmg you do on average 8 wounds.
But with the power fists you lose 1 guy and your losing damage output. Lose one of the thunder hammer team and its nothing, that 3rd wolf had a storm shield and a chainsword or something so it was just there to soak up a wound.
Thunder hammers are just better at the moment. They are definitely worth the extra points. If gw changed power fists cost and made them cheaper, or made thunder hammers more expensive (please don't do that gw) or even made power fists more reliable (flat d2 would make me happy, or 1d3 reroll results of 1 dmg) i would say they have a home, or at least a niche where we can make them work. But atm they dont do so well.
Unless your putting them on a unit with no access to thunder hammers, like the blood claw pack leaders. I am fine with them there.
I'm honestly tempted to put frost weapons - swords, maybe- on the TWC. They aren't vehicle killers, they're infantry killers. They escort Bjorn as well.
I always give Claws to the TWC, sometimes Frost Swords. That's because they come with 3 S5 AP-1 attacks granted by the wolves, and against an armored target they're just wasted. I prefer bringing Lascannons, Wolf Lords and Wulfen to deal with vehicles and monsters, TWC are better for the role of anti infantries. Which is also something that we really need since other than them we only have Wolf Guards and Blood Claws. Wulfen with Claws are terrible against infantries, they don't have enough attacks to clear a 30 man squad while they can annihilate a lot of armored stuff with their Hammers and Axes.
1xstormfang (twin las, 2xtwin heavy bolters, helfrost destruct.)
Bloodclaws enter the stormfang and the rhino, longfangs enter the razorback to avoid 1st turn shooting from opponent, helblasters and wulfen go on the hunt
Until this point I've been sold on idea of WG squad with storm shield + combi-plasma, combined with jump packs of course. Now Im rethinking if they should just drop combi-plasma and have storm bolters. But those saved points elsewhere.
Azuza001 wrote: If your running wg's with storm bolters and storm shields the ones on bike are better than with jump packs imo.
Though with jump packs if you get stuck into cc you can still jump out and shoot....
There is a thought.....
Christ I never even realised that. Your pro-bike comment sold me on jump packs.
@lonewolf81 looking at your list again, only thing that I wonder is power fist on those BC squads. Though I have no suggestion for other option.
Lol hell, my pro bike comment sold ME on a squad with jump packs and storm bolters, though i would probably run it as a squad of 10 with the leader having a thunder hammer that way if and when they do get charged they can continue to do damage in cc.
I know what i am doing after work when i get home.... bits box diving to make me some!
TWC are infantry killers, yes, but giving the packleader a thunderhammer means they are not vulnerable to monsters and vehicles. It is plain stupid going all out on anti-infantry on such an expensive unit, making them easily counterable.
Northern85Star wrote: TWC are infantry killers, yes, but giving the packleader a thunderhammer means they are not vulnerable to monsters and vehicles. It is plain stupid going all out on anti-infantry on such an expensive unit, making them easily counterable.
I agree, personally i run all my twc with storm shields and chainswords except the leader who has a th and ss. Its just smart gaming practices.
, while his 
, so I just paid 3 
their transports can get across the board super fast and their infantry have the genestealer speed, and have some trick to deny your overwatch. So I can expect your Grey Hunters would all die in the first two round without doing any significant damage back. So maybe keep them cheap and use them as speed bump, and rely on Long Fangs, Aggressors, 
