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On the hunt helps aggressors get into range against targets they normally wouldn't have a chance to get near, thats why i suggested it.

 Karhedron wrote:
Long Fangs seem like a good place to start. With native rerolls to Hit of 1s and the ability to ignore negative to hit modifiers thanks to "Keen Senses", they will put some decent hurt on Eldar.

You will need some mobility so Grey Hunter Squads in Razorbacks with assault cannons are a solid bet. I don't find GHs to be tax, they are one of the best Troop unit available to any MEQ army.

If you are going to use Outflanking/Deep Striking, make sure to include several units. Eldar have a stratagem to shoot incoming units just like we do (only without the -1 to-Hit modifier) so the first unit to arrive each turn will likely get shot to bits.

TWC with stormshields are actually a good take against Eldar. They are fast enough to avoid being kited, their 3++ save is good against all that nasty Eldar firepower. Although they don't hit as hard as Wulfen, Eldar are comparatively fragile meaning if the TWC do make a charge, they will do good damage. Either the jaws will mulch infantry or the riders' weapons will damage tougher targets like tanks.

Grey Hunters in Razorbacks is a bad idea. However, outflanking Grey Hunters and then using a bought Razorback to act as a battle tank is a good idea.

If I have gained any bit of information out of the past 3 pages, it is that we should outflank everything because it is the only thing our codex has going for it.

Wulfen - Outflank, their transports will always die T1
Grey hunters - Outflank, transports stink
Blood claws - Outflank see above
Primaris - Outflank, because it's good
Long fangs - outflank because luls
Scouts - outflank because it is literally all they are good for.
HQ options - TWC, jump pack, or outflank.

So will the average competitive wolf list just be: "Here is a table full of empty transports and some TWC, over there is the rest of my army, which I spent all my CP on to outflank"

 gwarsh41 wrote:
If I have gained any bit of information out of the past 3 pages, it is that we should outflank everything because it is the only thing our codex has going for it.

Wulfen - Outflank, their transports will always die T1
Grey hunters - Outflank, transports stink
Blood claws - Outflank see above
Primaris - Outflank, because it's good
Long fangs - outflank because luls
Scouts - outflank because it is literally all they are good for.
HQ options - TWC, jump pack, or outflank.

So will the average competitive wolf list just be: "Here is a table full of empty transports and some TWC, over there is the rest of my army, which I spent all my CP on to outflank"

Welcome to warhammer 40k since 5th edition. Where a Space Marine standing on the table is a dead a turn later.

 gwarsh41 wrote:
If I have gained any bit of information out of the past 3 pages, it is that we should outflank everything because it is the only thing our codex has going for it.

Wulfen - Outflank, their transports will always die T1
Grey hunters - Outflank, transports stink
Blood claws - Outflank see above
Primaris - Outflank, because it's good
Long fangs - outflank because luls
Scouts - outflank because it is literally all they are good for.
HQ options - TWC, jump pack, or outflank.

So will the average competitive wolf list just be: "Here is a table full of empty transports and some TWC, over there is the rest of my army, which I spent all my CP on to outflank"

lolz

But I think you still need some CP left to use the Keen Sense and Wolf Eye on the Long Fangs. And maybe Honor the Chapter on Wulfens. So you need to reserve....... 5CP at least for that.
Yeah, it looks the Space Wolves is a very very CP hungry army. Just like the Deathwatch.

Back to the Topic, I think I would only outflank a strong Wulfen pack and a Long Fang pack. Just stuck those 3 min Troop units in Rhinos and rush it up the field with Rune Priest and other HQ units at its back. That ensure your expensive units to have at least one round chance to what they need to do.

 gwarsh41 wrote:
If I have gained any bit of information out of the past 3 pages, it is that we should outflank everything because it is the only thing our codex has going for it.

Wulfen - Outflank, their transports will always die T1
Grey hunters - Outflank, transports stink
Blood claws - Outflank see above
Primaris - Outflank, because it's good
Long fangs - outflank because luls
Scouts - outflank because it is literally all they are good for.
HQ options - TWC, jump pack, or outflank.

So will the average competitive wolf list just be: "Here is a table full of empty transports and some TWC, over there is the rest of my army, which I spent all my CP on to outflank"

I mean, GW killed the main thing going for Rhinos (cheap and 2 firing ports) and if Razorbacks didn't need to stay still to get the most out of them they'd only be okay-ish.

What do you mean SW and primaris does not go well together? Do any SM and primaris work?

 Niiai wrote:
What do you mean SW and primaris does not go well together? Do any SM and primaris work?

Dark Angels Hellblasters are disgusting.

 Niiai wrote:
What do you mean SW and primaris does not go well together? Do any SM and primaris work?

Well the trait works out for the Gravis Captain who doesn't move anywhere otherwise. Then you have the biggest benefit of all, which is Aggressors with the Outflank strategem and actually hitting with their Power Fists the first round of combat.

Reivers like the benefit to hit, but until they actually hit harder they'll have little use.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 gwarsh41 wrote:
If I have gained any bit of information out of the past 3 pages, it is that we should outflank everything because it is the only thing our codex has going for it.

Wulfen - Outflank, their transports will always die T1
Grey hunters - Outflank, transports stink
Blood claws - Outflank see above
Primaris - Outflank, because it's good
Long fangs - outflank because luls
Scouts - outflank because it is literally all they are good for.
HQ options - TWC, jump pack, or outflank.

So will the average competitive wolf list just be: "Here is a table full of empty transports and some TWC, over there is the rest of my army, which I spent all my CP on to outflank"

I mean, GW killed the main thing going for Rhinos (cheap and 2 firing ports) and if Razorbacks didn't need to stay still to get the most out of them they'd only be okay-ish.

Yeah, wolves are seriously cp hungry. Its why i went with imp guard for cp generation, its not very fluffy but its really needed to help make wolves work as best they can.

I end up spending 4 cp typically before the game starts.

But from a pure wolf pov, if your looking at doing a lot of "on the hunt" outflanking this is what i suggest.

1st look at your army. What units give you the best advantage outflanking vs what ones can be super effective even just moving up the field or inside a transport. An example of this would be grey hunters. Yes outflanking is awsome. But you can get the same effect more or less dropping them in a drop pod. Most can agree that a drop pod is worth about 50-60 pts and is over priced at 85, but if its saving you a cp that gives the cp a cost of about 25 pts. Thats not bad at all.

2nd look at what is going to be left on the field if you do outflank / ds a large portion. Will whats left easily survive a round of t1 shooting assuming you dont get 1st turn? Can you hide enough behind los cover to make it? And in what condition will whats left be in? Its why i like my 3 predators and e whirlwinds combo. That is a lot of t7 with a lot of wounds sitting there that should be fine. I may lose a predator, or a few may take wounds, but i dont see losing everything in 1 turn. And once you get your turn you can pop the stratagem to make then really hard to deal with.

Finally what is there that needs cp to make it super effective in your lists? For me again its my rune priest. The moment i run out of (or drop below 3) my rune priest has a different roll. He switches from support to melee thanks to the ghost wolves psycic power. For this reason i take him with a jump pack so he can rush forward and give some support to anything that needs it come turn 3 (when i normally run out). But if your planning on using that longfang squad every turn with 0 shooting penelties keep that in mind when building the list. If your looking at 7 cp and plan on using the -1 to hit and keen senses strat a lot you wont get past turn 1 with enough cp left to continue working on that. Its for that reason i dropped my longfangs from my list, i cant afford to spend cp on them.

Hope that helps.

Yeah, wolves are seriously cp hungry. Its why i went with imp guard for cp generation, its not very fluffy but its really needed to help make wolves work as best they can.

If anything its more Fluffy than most Marines fighting beside the Guard. Unless you are taking the 32. If you are taking the 32 its lame. I like to throw some Roughriders in. Sometimes a LeMan Russ. Hellhounds are good also.

The 32? Are you talking just 30 guardsman and 2 officers? If so no, thats not what i have been taking.

At my lowest point lvl i play at (1500) i take a single hq officer and 3 scout sentinals. Officer gets the wl trait for getting cp back and the artifact to get cp back from opponent. He hangs out with my 3 hq's and the tanks while the rest of my army moves forwards and out capturing outer objectives and generally blowing stuff up.

Higher point lvls i take the 3 troop choices with auto cannons, a basilisk, and some heavy weapon mortar teams. I like shell based weapons a lot lol.

At 2000 pts its easy to put a 500 pt batallion of guard and 1500 pts of wolves on the table, and its incredibly effective as well. Almost scary good in my local meta where someone shows up with a knight and realizes they have a serious issue with all the troops stairing at them. Then the wolves come in outflanked.... really good.

Im with azuza here. If you really want SW to shine (or any SM chapter for that matter), IG is needed. Marines are overcosted, but through CP shenanigans we can bring us up to speed. Albeit, i think the IG cp battery will get nerfed in the big FAQ.

If you just want to have fun, well.. bring whatever you like and see how it goes, then adapt to the meta. It’s what i do, and the DG/nurgle and GK/custodes/UM players i play against are currently trying to figure out how to beat me. The worst list i am facing is a list with a UM leviathan and GK leviathan. UM levi is defensive (can fall back and shoot), while the GK levi gets teleported t1 and shoots, then gets its invul save buffed to 3++... and a thunderfire cannon to half the movement of twc or wulfen. If i bring a longship, then the meta will change quickly, due to the short range of leviathans.

This is of course a small meta.

 gwarsh41 wrote:

 Niiai wrote:
What do you mean SW and primaris does not go well together? Do any SM and primaris work?

Dark Angels Hellblasters are disgusting.

Raven Guard work well with Primaris. Aggressors striking from the shadows while your Intercessors and Hellblasters sit back and enjoy the enemy shooting being at -1 to-Hit.

Deathwatch with mixed Primaris squads are really good because of the way the special rules are allowed to stack.

Basically if you want to play Primaris competitively, paint them black.


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 Weazel wrote:

 Karhedron wrote:

You will need some mobility so Grey Hunter Squads in Razorbacks with assault cannons are a solid bet. I don't find GHs to be tax, they are one of the best Troop unit available to any MEQ army.

About the GH in Razorbacks.. would you keep them pretty barebones with maybe one Plasma or take WGPL with combi as well?

Plasma and WGPL with Combi-plas are good. If you have the points, a plasma pistol on the GHPL and a Power sword on the WGPL are good to have.

I don't think space wolves are bad with Primaris, they're just not good. by that I mean their chapter tactic doesn't partiuclarly help Primaris units eaither way, granted Primaris Units aren't (for non dedicated close combat units) too bad in close combat.

IF True Grit worked on Primaris it would be a completely different story. Could you see primaris units in cc being able to shoot those bolt guns of theirs as if they were pistols? Oh man.... such an easy fix to make those units gain something from space wolves that other faction primaris don't get.

BUT I think this will not happen. GW is trying to tell a story here with the Primaris stuff. All of these different factions in the Imperium work differently. Ultramarines, Black Templars, Salamanders, Blood Angels, Dark Angels, Space Wolves, all of these units have the same units but how they use them has varied wildly from edition to edition. Take the standard Tactical Marine. Ultramarines take them as the standard marine. Black Templars however mix their 'Scouts' in with their standard marines and focus on close combat. Space Wolves make theirs Grey Hunters, which don't have access to longer range heavy weapons but are better at close fire support.

Now Guiliman comes in with these Primaris Marines to boost the depleted forces of the Space Marines. They are bigger, stronger, and have better equipment than a regular marine. But they have not had any time to truly get integrated into these chapters who have had centuries of tradition and doing their own thing in secret so that other chapters don't truly know how they go through these special rites as it was. So of course all Primaris work the same for the most part. They are the same. They are not REALLY Space Wolves or Black Templars or Dark Angels, they are Primaris. I am sure this will change as time go's on but if you think of 40k as a living story with each edition and each codex telling the next part of that story right now we are at the beginning of whatever GW decides to turn the Primaris into.

I don't think they will do anything drastic like turn them to chaos or make any chapter suddenly kick them out. Imagine the backlash if say you were a Dark Angels player and invested into Primaris with your force then next edition GW said "Dark Angels kicked all Primaris out of their chapter so you can't use them with Dark Angels." The backlash would be stupid bad. But you COULD see them in the next edition say "Dark Angels have decided to make a new Wing based on Primaris called the Shield Brothers and they get the bonus of always counting as in cover when outside 12'' range". Something like that could happen easily, and it would help to drive sales of their new toys as well.

Rant Over. One can hope. Until then, Primaris are not bad they just don't really DO anything special one way or another no matter what faction you take with them.

Azuza001 wrote:
IF True Grit worked on Primaris it would be a completely different story. Could you see primaris units in cc being able to shoot those bolt guns of theirs as if they were pistols? Oh man.... such an easy fix to make those units gain something from space wolves that other faction primaris don't get.

True grit does work on Primaris guns.

murphs wrote:

Azuza001 wrote:
IF True Grit worked on Primaris it would be a completely different story. Could you see primaris units in cc being able to shoot those bolt guns of theirs as if they were pistols? Oh man.... such an easy fix to make those units gain something from space wolves that other faction primaris don't get.

True grit does work on Primaris guns.

it costs a CP but for primaris Marines proably definatly worth it in the right situation

murphs wrote:

Azuza001 wrote:
IF True Grit worked on Primaris it would be a completely different story. Could you see primaris units in cc being able to shoot those bolt guns of theirs as if they were pistols? Oh man.... such an easy fix to make those units gain something from space wolves that other faction primaris don't get.

True grit does work on Primaris guns.

Don't forget that the Primaris Sergeant is gonna hit on a 2+ that first round of combat with his Chainsword or Power Sword too. I guess Intercessors get s small amount of mileage out of the trait.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

murphs wrote:

Azuza001 wrote:
IF True Grit worked on Primaris it would be a completely different story. Could you see primaris units in cc being able to shoot those bolt guns of theirs as if they were pistols? Oh man.... such an easy fix to make those units gain something from space wolves that other faction primaris don't get.

True grit does work on Primaris guns.

Don't forget that the Primaris Sergeant is gonna hit on a 2+ that first round of combat with his Chainsword or Power Sword too. I guess Intercessors get s small amount of mileage out of the trait.

they'll ALL hit on a 2+ on that trait. it sounds minor but a 5 man squad is gonna have a goodly number of attacks.

Ah, cool. I don't have my book in front of me, for some reason I was think it just said bolters. :p

Thats actually kinda cool. I have been against the True Grit stratagem since it came out back in the old Chapter Approved but with the update I have had 1 case where it came up that it was worth popping the strat with some grey hunters to be sure my target I was in CC with died. (It was a fight vs Genestealers, and I really needed to be sure they were dead before my opponents next turn lol).

Azuza001 wrote:
Ah, cool. I don't have my book in front of me, for some reason I was think it just said bolters. :p

Thats actually kinda cool. I have been against the True Grit stratagem since it came out back in the old Chapter Approved but with the update I have had 1 case where it came up that it was worth popping the strat with some grey hunters to be sure my target I was in CC with died. (It was a fight vs Genestealers, and I really needed to be sure they were dead before my opponents next turn lol).

I think it'll be more worth it on Primaris minis simply because of the better stats.

If the plan was to use this strat all the time then yea. I just ment that before it was a 2CP strat now its a 1. At 2 it wasn't worth it, at 1 I think it can be a clutch 'I may need a bit more firepower here to finish the job'. With a large Primaris squad I can see that being pretty surprising for your opponent to find out about really. You charge into them with your Primaris to lock them up, they figure they have it easy now because Primaris are better at shooting that CC, then you pull that strat? Heh. Definatly something to keep in the back of your mind.

Azuza001 wrote:
If the plan was to use this strat all the time then yea. I just ment that before it was a 2CP strat now its a 1. At 2 it wasn't worth it, at 1 I think it can be a clutch 'I may need a bit more firepower here to finish the job'. With a large Primaris squad I can see that being pretty surprising for your opponent to find out about really. You charge into them with your Primaris to lock them up, they figure they have it easy now because Primaris are better at shooting that CC, then you pull that strat? Heh. Definatly something to keep in the back of your mind.

agreed, it's NOT a "I win" strat, but it's a great strat to use to put your enemy down faster.

The only thing wrong with the True Grit stratagem is that Grey Knights don't have it. For reasons.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
The only thing wrong with the True Grit stratagem is that Grey Knights don't have it. For reasons.

I'd like to see a 8.5th GK codex.

So can someone point me in the direction of the approved units from FW for Space Wolves?

2nd part of the question I have a Storm Eagle and a Fire Raptor, are they approved for SW and If not, how much of an issue would it be if I converted the Storm Eagle into a Storm Wolf or Fang (the Transport option) as long as it is equipped with the same weapon load out?

Let’s talk army composition and list building with a specific focus on figuring out a way to get the most out of our troop choices, specifically Blood Claws and Grey Hunters.

I really like a WGBL with the Wulfen stone near a squad of blood claws. To maximize this buff, I think a 10-man squad is best lead by a WGPL with a power fist and one power fist in the squad. I also like a Wolf Lord leading a squad of 10 Grey Hunters. To maximize his buff, I think a 10-man squad is best lead by a WGPL with a combi-plasma and 2 plasma guns in the squad. Regarding either squad I think taking advantage of the 6” bubble the HQ provides maximizing this is also key. So, getting 2 squads one on either side of the character, or maybe even 3, is the way to go.

Now comes to the difficult part, how they move around the tabletop. We all know the issues with power armour in this edition and let’s not get into that here. For either option I think Rhinos are a waste. 5 wounds later and you’re moving just as fast as they do on foot. Moving 12, advancing and popping smoke is great but this is too dependent on getting first turn. If you lose that one roll off you just sunk 72 points per squad into something that doesn’t work. Because I am focusing on 10 man squads I think the Razorback is out. Which leaves the land raider… moving on… and the Stormwolf. I like the Stormwolf but it is a lot of points. Worth it I think for a bigger blob of blood claws. Easier for bigger games but I think 1000-1500 points it’s hard to fit into a list and not be a one trick pony.

Which leaves cunning of the wolf or foot slogging. I think both are viable but costly. Cunning of the Wolf I think better spent on Wulfen or Aggressors. Foot slogging leaves us vulnerable to the power armour issue, but I want to say is the best way to go but still needs an investment in Wolf Priests to cast storm caller and if you’re playing a gun line also popping cloaked by the storm. But just like the Cunning of the Wolf, this combo is probably better spent using on 2 squads of Wulfen or Thunderwolves charging up the table.

Any thoughts or other options I am not seeing?

Drop pods, jump packs, and greater threats are the 3 things you missed.

To make rhinos work without you getting 1st turn you need to make your opponent have something more important to shoot at. Stormfangs, razorbacks, predators, wulfen, thunder wolf calvery, these things should soak up fire from an opponent before a rhino is even targeted, but they are expensive and potentially wont hold the opponents attention for long.

Drop pods can work well with 10 man squads, i have had some good success with dropping one on a forward objective and having 10 blood claws pile out. The downside is turn 2 for the drop and it is still a bit expensive. But 2 drop pods with 10 bloodclaws each, with a wolf guard battle leader dropping in with a jump pack on can give you great positioning for turn 3. Also if you outflank some wolfen near there the 12" reroll charge can help.

Finally skyclaws are bloodclaws with jump packs on. Thats always an option. You can deep strike or just jump up the board.

I would say no to Drop Pods because that's a commitment of 85 points. No thanks.