Not saying he's wrong about the bikes, but I doubt he's been playing the codex at all, since he keeps referring to Genestealers with Cult Creed buffs.
I mean, there were people who are supposed to be "experienced tournament players" who kept giving Relic of Cadia to Psykers early on...people suck at reading rules or sometimes just downright "interpret" things their way.
Let's not rag on Geoff. He missed a single line in a stacked dex, one that is also kinda weird and in an unexpected place. There was stuff in the dex he himself said he wasn't sure how the rules worked, that included all the addition and multiplication to strength on something like an abominant, and whether or not the Chimera's can actually carry GSC units anymore or just the Brood Brother units in the dex. He said sometimes he just isn't sure, and has made mistakes before in the past, so he'll wait for the rest of the community and how they decide it works and play it like that. He made a small mistake in reading the codex, no biggie.
Let's not rag on Geoff. He missed a single line in a stacked dex, one that is also kinda weird and in an unexpected place. There was stuff in the dex he himself said he wasn't sure how the rules worked, that included all the addition and multiplication to strength on something like an abominant, and whether or not the Chimera's can actually carry GSC units anymore or just the Brood Brother units in the dex. He said sometimes he just isn't sure, and has made mistakes before in the past, so he'll wait for the rest of the community and how they decide it works and play it like that. He made a small mistake in reading the codex, no biggie.
Yeah, I wasn't trying to give him a hard time. I just thought you implied he was involved in playtesting which is where this particular issue would have come up.
Let's not rag on Geoff. He missed a single line in a stacked dex, one that is also kinda weird and in an unexpected place. There was stuff in the dex he himself said he wasn't sure how the rules worked, that included all the addition and multiplication to strength on something like an abominant, and whether or not the Chimera's can actually carry GSC units anymore or just the Brood Brother units in the dex. He said sometimes he just isn't sure, and has made mistakes before in the past, so he'll wait for the rest of the community and how they decide it works and play it like that. He made a small mistake in reading the codex, no biggie.
Yeah, I wasn't trying to give him a hard time. I just thought you implied he was involved in playtesting which is where this particular issue would have come up.
I know, just being clear. And nah, he didn't officially contribute to the playtesting of this dex, that had begun before he was on the playtest team, but because he is part of the team he was given a copy to "playtest" on his own time over the past few months, though he had zero contributions to the development of the dex. Means he probably just played it out with Reece and Frankie vs their multitudes of armies.
I do find it interesting that we know he's been a playtester for so long, and that he contributed to the CA2019 (released September 2018) which he said began before Knight dex was even printed (June 2018), and I'm fairly certain he said he contributed to the Ork Codex (released November 2018), but he said he wasn't on the team when GSC Dex (released February 2019) was started. This seems to read to me that GW isn't necessarily releasing things in order that they finish? Orks probably got pushed ahead for Orktober? CA they promised September and probably had to make that deadline? GSC got pushed back to make way for these things? I dunno. Maybe I'm reading too far into it, but we got information and leaks on Genestealer Cults VERY late if this is the case that development began before all these things, meaning I could quite possibly see an Emperor's Children / World Eaters / whatever else was rumored release suddenly come out of the woodwork any day now.
I've long suspected that a lot of rumors may actually be correct, just that the scheduling plans changed. Like, rumors of upcoming Angron that we heard a while ago. I mean, that guy got some other stuff right, it's possible that the rumor wasn't wrong, just that GW completely changed its schedule? Geoff's statements here seem to at least suggest that their release schedules are very prone to change, no?
Pretty sure the whining is the people saying it is
And what exactly does that have to do with anything that I said? Don't back out now, I'll wait for you to explain yourself why I am apparently responsible for the assertions that other people make.
And I'll go ahead and accept your concession that "dude just stuff em in a transport lol" is not a valid counter to the kelermorph. All I ask in these discussions is that we remain objective and logical.
I'd just put mine behind a transport/tank out of potential LOS and keeping the aura active. Or start him in a transport for first turn and then disembark. I also have Company Veterans that can bodyguard. I could also take a relic for a 2+ save on him if I felt the need.
If you're in a situation where you can both A) keep your character out of LoS behind a vehicle the whole time AND B) still use their 6'' aura on the units that you need to be buffing, then more power to you- but I'd argue that the table won't be so complimentary to you in most real-world conditions.
Bodyguards and excellent invulns will do the job most of the time I think. Not every faction has access to those, though.
Pretty sure the whining is the people saying it is
And what exactly does that have to do with anything that I said? Don't back out now, I'll wait for you to explain yourself why I am apparently responsible for the assertions that other people make.
I didn't say you said they were broken. I was talking in general, at no point did I name you. If you felt that was about yourself I'm afraid you misunderstood. I was extending from my previous post as my points to you tied into it.
You did however without a doubt directly accuse me of, "whining about it not being broken", which is such a ridiculous statement and I addressed that when I responded.
BlaxicanX wrote: And I'll go ahead and accept your concession that "dude just stuff em in a transport lol" is not a valid counter to the kelermorph. All I ask in these discussions is that we remain objective and logical.
When did I say that was the only counter or the only thing you should do? Transports help give you options here, if you're denying that you're being way too stubborn.
Your post treads well past the territory of "disingenuous" into "I thought lies would add some legs to my losing argument." You have posters like Galas right next to you who made the same snap judgements abound an unplayed unit, ADMITTING it was scrubby as hell to do this. I'm sorry but it's a low level mentality.
It really shouldn't be that outlandish to say "can we please play this unit first thx". You act as though I'm saying it couldn't possibly be OP, I'm simply saying there's a ton of counterplay options and your literal theorycraft may be misplaced.
Let me posit something to you and let's see if you can grasp where I'm coming from. Imagine we were to play a game but I want to try some fun House rules for a new unit I made. Let's call em 'Mega, MEGA Nobs!'. They cost 1 point each and have WS/BS 2+, 100W, a 2+++ and take PowaKlaws that are just like regular PowerKlaws but free and add 10 attacks to their profile. I can take 1 per detachment. Would you need to play against such a unit to reckon it might be a little wonky? No? Would it be a low level mentality to believe this? Extrapolate that out.
This is an absurdly false comparison. 100W 1 pt 2+++ models. That model has NOT been printed. NOBODY thinks that this could potentially turn out not to be crazy. There was NO member of the playtest team that finished playing this model and said "yeah, fair". The Kelermorph however, you can quite practically see how they could think all these things, and I'd like to wait and play it out. Yes, there is a line where things cross into obviously broken, but this slippery slope fallacy that because it exists, then we are allowed to declare models like this as broken before they are even released. Learn how to formulate an argument that doesn't hinge off logical fallacies. Similar to the Solitaire, people saw it and declared it to be OP, and undercosted. But gasp, look at that - solitaire isn't tearing up the meta and nobody cares about it anymore, because you can only spend 100pts of your army on Solitaire, and the other limitations of the army held in back. Even Aeldari soup it's not that popular. Similar to that, you can only spend 180pts of your army on Kelermorph, and ONLY then if you completely give up all soup options, something you yourself said was going to be one of their other strengths. Even then, you probably don't want to run more than 2 because that would be bad, and even then, it's only going to have impact against a certain type of list. This hyperbole that deciding things like this are going to be broken before the dex isn't even released has got to stop, it's unbelievably embarrassing.
An Actual Englishman wrote: Please do tell me the counterplay options I have as an Ork player to this dude who can delete most my characters at will, can innately DS, when he shoots chaff he still makes his points back and he effectively has double wounds because on a 4+ (or 2+ if bodyguarded) he has free grot shields that also work in cqc? " Put your characters in a transport" is not counterplay, its hamstringing.
He comes down and kills 4.5 Orks by shooting at chaff. That's not even HALF his cost. Then he's a shooty Gaurdsmen within charge range of Orkz. There's literally zero reason you shouldn't have "any options" to counter play against that as Orkz. It's posts like this that do nothing but convince me you are playing this game at the lowest level possible. It's possible the Kelermorph comes out and does end up being broken, my only stance is that we don't know, but if he is, it's definitely not for the casual reasons you describe it
An Actual Englishman wrote: As for the bikes? I would pay 10ppm for a T4, 5+, 2W model with 14" move and -1 to hit vs shooting. All day. Compare them to a Boy, for 3 points they get a better save, 9" extra move, a wound, better BS (but worse WS so its a wash), -1 to hit GS ranged, innate DS/ambush. Boys get an extra S4 attack (or 2 if over 20, 3 if choppas) and morale mitigation (if they survive). Not to mention traits and stratagems. They're a gem.
And here's what Geoff, someone who has actually played the dex for months now, thinks about the Bikes.
Not only does he think that they are the worst unit in the dex, he thinks they are one of the worst units in the game.
Now maybe he's wrong, maybe you're wrong. We'll see in time when the dex comes out. Either way, it's an excellent example of how you don't really have the knowledge as player right now to be calling things busted, or OP, and act as though it's the gospel. EVEN GEOFF after months of playing, and at a much higher level of play than yourself, says that he doesn't have the knowledge on such things and that we'll have to see how it evolves and he'd love to be wrong. Wait till we've all actually played the dex and seen how it competes and interacts with others. Shouldn't be that outlandish a statement, but apparently we're doing overtime on scrubbiness here on dakka these days.
Are you choosing to miss the point of his hypothetical unit in this thought exercise on purpose?
He asked a question and you basically ignored it. The premise is that a placing a limit on how many of a broken unit you can take doesn't fix the problem because the unit we are talking about is still broken. Can you deny this, yes or no?
He's gone into full straw man mode. Apparently I'm a 'low tier' or bad player for believing something is obviously too good for its cost before its release.
Shuppet you have yet to offer counterplay to the unit with Orks. He's not 'just a shooty Guardsman' within charge range of Orks because he will inevitably have bodyguards of some description. If he can target the Boys he can target the warboss who will be desperately needed in combat. Contrary to your straw man, incorrect assumptions, I have also watched Geoff's video. I heard him state that he had no input into this codex, that he has played a few games (not a lot), wax lyrical about how he would have loved to keep the old Cult Ambush but that wouldn't be 'fun for your opponents', that he considers Acolytes and Abominants to be too cheap. I hate to tell you but he is biased. He plays the army. Just like you it would seem. Yea I can wait to have my suspicions confirmed but there is literally nothing you can say that is going to stop me having an opinion on something and the fact that you think its 'scrubby' to do so is ridiculous.
E2 - Also Shuppet for every unit that 'dakka got wrong' in terms of effectiveness (or not) you realise there's 10-15 others that dakka got spot on yea? You are using the exception to try and prove a rule that is completely false.
Stux wrote: I'm assuming at this point if we're comparing points of units killed we have confirmation on his wargear cost right?
0, he pays nothing additionally for his guns, it seems.
He here is your noncypher relic autostub pistol. Yes you can buy in bulk if you buy 2 you get a 3rd for free. Somewhere in a underhive a Kelermorph is procuring pistols.
Stux wrote: I'm assuming at this point if we're comparing points of units killed we have confirmation on his wargear cost right?
0, he pays nothing additionally for his guns, it seems.
He here is your noncypher relic autostub pistol. Yes you can buy in bulk if you buy 2 you get a 3rd for free. Somewhere in a underhive a Kelermorph is procuring pistols.
When you say "it seems", does that mean a reliable leak? Or people are assuming?
I mean it probably is 0 in all honesty, because it's a unique weapon for one unit who has to take it. But I just want to be sure!
Stux wrote: I'm assuming at this point if we're comparing points of units killed we have confirmation on his wargear cost right?
0, he pays nothing additionally for his guns, it seems.
He here is your noncypher relic autostub pistol. Yes you can buy in bulk if you buy 2 you get a 3rd for free. Somewhere in a underhive a Kelermorph is procuring pistols.
When you say "it seems", does that mean a reliable leak? Or people are assuming?
I mean it probably is 0 in all honesty, because it's a unique weapon for one unit who has to take it. But I just want to be sure!
in any review there was nothing stated beyond that he costs 60 pts.
So 0 for the guns.
In essence that is a dude with 3 x Cyphers unique boltpistol in stubpistol form, and the option to get a even better stubpistol compared to cyphers boltpistol as a relic.
He is one of the only charachters in game that can make his cost back by simply shooting chaff units and he isn't even to bad at it. Need a hole in a screen to reach that darn knight? He will wipe out a 10 man ig squad no worries.
Stux wrote: I'm assuming at this point if we're comparing points of units killed we have confirmation on his wargear cost right?
0, he pays nothing additionally for his guns, it seems.
He here is your noncypher relic autostub pistol. Yes you can buy in bulk if you buy 2 you get a 3rd for free. Somewhere in a underhive a Kelermorph is procuring pistols.
When you say "it seems", does that mean a reliable leak? Or people are assuming?
I mean it probably is 0 in all honesty, because it's a unique weapon for one unit who has to take it. But I just want to be sure!
I don't think you can counter-play a model this good. Say he can't get a 150% return by killing a character worth 90-100 points immediately due to screening (or you just don't take such characters)? Okay - but if he can get 50% return versus troops he's still not done badly for his points. Point him at any infantry more elite and have fun.
In fact he's cost effective versus a lot of vehicles (sub T8) because he is so underpriced.
You go kill him and any screen he's with? Fine, but I'm only down 60 points. I've got plenty more stuff.
With that said some of this feels exaggerated. He is overpowered, but his impact on a game is going to be limited. If he kills 35-60 points a turn say thats a very efficient use of 60 points - but it is still only 60 points. Its not like a Castelan running hot and killing 400-600 points in a turn - often ending the game right there.
6 shots at BS2+ = 5 hits exploding hits = 4.166 more hits
9.166 hits at S4 vs T4 saves = 4.58 wounds. No save.
4 boys = 28 pts, 5 = 35 pts. He's a 60 pt model. You're absolutely right, my math was out by 3 pts, it averages 2 pts higher than HALF his point cost.
My underlying point remains exactly the same. Englishman is factually wrong with statements like "vs Orks when he comes down and shoots chaff he still makes his points back".
My underlying point remains exactly the same. Englishman is factually wrong with statements like "vs Orks when he comes down and shoots chaff he still makes his points back".
This seems to be your problem, you're not actually reading what I'm writing. I never said he comes down and immediately makes his points back shooting chaff. He does so in 2 turns. This is all if he doesn't shoot the Warboss/pain boy/Big Mek/Weird boy for some insane reason (in which case his points are immediately returned) when he enters play.
6 shots at BS2+ = 5 hits
exploding hits = 4.166 more hits
9.166 hits at S4 vs T4 saves = 4.58 wounds. No save.
4 boys = 28 pts, 5 = 35 pts. He's a 60 pt model. You're absolutely right, my math was out by 3 pts, it averages 2 pts higher than HALF his point cost.
My underlying point remains exactly the same. Englishman is factually wrong with statements like "vs Orks when he comes down and shoots chaff he still makes his points back".
"he dosen't even make half his points back"
You don't get it do you, USE 1 pistol to SHOOT at CHAFF to get REROLL 1's.....
Cypher is a single dude with no access to support of any kind going on a hobo adventure across space. He uses regular bolt shells for his really old gun that he steals from Marines when no one is looking.
Kellermorphs have the support of entire global networks including the workers that create the weapons of the Imperium. He uses special bullets made out of refined nonsense metals that kill extra hard.
Can we please stifle the Cypher vs Kellermorph nonsense? If you’re going to complain about the new guy being too good with fluff, at least use someone more comparable, like a Vindicare assassin.
Badablack wrote: Cypher is a single dude with no access to support of any kind going on a hobo adventure across space. He uses regular bolt shells for his really old gun that he steals from Marines when no one is looking.
Kellermorphs have the support of entire global networks including the workers that create the weapons of the Imperium. He uses special bullets made out of refined nonsense metals that kill extra hard.
Can we please stifle the Cypher vs Kellermorph nonsense? If you’re going to complain about the new guy being too good with fluff, at least use someone more comparable, like a Vindicare assassin.
Because a stubpistol should even be in the same bracket as any boltpistol?
Can i also get a relic Autogun for my cultists? Preferable rapid 3 s4 ap-1 d2?
Badablack wrote: Can we please stifle the Cypher vs Kellermorph nonsense? If you’re going to complain about the new guy being too good with fluff, at least use someone more comparable, like a Vindicare assassin.
...when comparing things to a gunslinger models, a sniper is more appropriate than another gunslinger?
He's gone into full straw man mode. Apparently I'm a 'low tier' or bad player for believing something is obviously too good for its cost before its release.
Shuppet you have yet to offer counterplay to the unit with Orks.
I've done it, you've just ignored it in favor of whining about it instead, and making hyperbolic, kneejerk declarations.
An Actual Englishman wrote: He's not 'just a shooty Guardsman' within charge range of Orks because he will inevitably have bodyguards of some description.
He's a shooty Guardsmen with body guards, deployed in front of a horde of Orkz. Why would you not be assaulting everything there? Why would you not be dakka'ing the screen?
An Actual Englishman wrote: If he can target the Boys he can target the warboss who will be desperately needed in combat.
Errr.... You... really don't understand the concept of a screen do you?
An Actual Englishman wrote: IContrary to your straw man, incorrect assumptions, I have also watched Geoff's video. I heard him state that he had no input into this codex, that he has played a few games (not a lot), wax lyrical about how he would have loved to keep the old Cult Ambush but that wouldn't be 'fun for your opponents', that he considers Acolytes and Abominants to be too cheap. I hate to tell you but he is biased. He plays the army. Just like you it would seem.
By your description he's biased against the dex, not in favor of it? It sounds like all the things you claim hes said are talk of things being too strong, not too weak? How is this supporting your point?
Regardless, I stress "claim" anyway, because I didn't hear barely any of that stuff at all, that sounds like some very generous interpretations, or chinese whispers. I can happily source timestamp any thing I claimed he said. Can you please timestamp the bits where he said he has only played a few games and not a lot? Can you please timestamp where he said the old Cult Ambush wouldn't be fun for your opponents? (You won't.)
An Actual Englishman wrote: Yea I can wait to have my suspicions confirmed but there is literally nothing you can say that is going to stop me having an opinion on something and the fact that you think its 'scrubby' to do so is ridiculous.
E2 - Also Shuppet for every unit that 'dakka got wrong' in terms of effectiveness (or not) you realise there's 10-15 others that dakka got spot on yea? You are using the exception to try and prove a rule that is completely false.
The fact that dakka got even one unit wrong at all (there's been many upon many but lets not get into that) is exactly why you need to WAIT TO PLAY THE UNIT BEFORE TRYING TO REBALANCE THE GAME. You are one of the most reactionary posters on this site man. You constantly make claims that things you have a very vague understanding of, are OP, and need to be rebalanced. You undeniably have a very vague understanding of this, because those who have already played dex, who compete at a high level, also admit to not fully knowing how good these things are going to be. Why do you think you know well enough? You constantly whine about Orks being to weak. You have the nerve to accuse other people of bias, even when they have said the exact same thing about other armies they don't play - YOUR ONE INCLUDED. Please stop butchering the term strawman - you apparently have an even vaguer understanding of what that means than you do of game concepts.
Take a step back - take a breather - get off the keyboard and go out and play some games. Build your knowledge a bit better. Wait for this dex to be released before doomsaying about a unit that you haven't even played against. You don't understand the concept of a screen, so I'm quite certain that you're right, and you are still going to get utterly demolished by anyone even running one of these 60 point units, but that's okay - at least then you can describe what actually happened in your play, and people can help you level up past it. This unit may very well be powerful, but it also may very well not have the impact on the competitive scene that you believe it will. You're more than entitled to your speculation, but you need to recognise it as such, and when you start decrying that everyone is bias'd for not agreeing with you that this thing is broken before the dex even drops, then you're just being overly reactionary, and that's about the status quo on Dakka when it comes to new releases.
My underlying point remains exactly the same. Englishman is factually wrong with statements like "vs Orks when he comes down and shoots chaff he still makes his points back".
This seems to be your problem, you're not actually reading what I'm writing. I never said he comes down and immediately makes his points back shooting chaff. He does so in 2 turns. This is all if he doesn't shoot the Warboss/pain boy/Big Mek/Weird boy for some insane reason (in which case his points are immediately returned) when he enters play.
"You're not actually reading what I'm writing"
Quite an entertaining choice of words, from a guy who still has yet to address the concept of the iconic horde army using a screen to block a model with 12" range on his guns from blasting at their Warlord. Hell you fell right back on it again in the next sentence here.
I feel like I'm talking to a brick wall. Englishman has decided this unit is broken, and that's it, no more discussion on how or why that might not be the case, if you think we should wait and see how it turns out, you're clearly biased and in denial. "We can't afford to wait to PLAY this unit before complaining, because that means it might take till CA2019 to see it nerfed!". Totally measured opinion, not reactionary at all.
He actually right though.
At mere 60 points, with the rules he's got, he's not only overpowered, he's in bad taste.
A regular nobody face in the crowd shouldnt put the named protagonist/antagonist characters in what he can do, especially not for mere 60 points, that's the realm of a minor basic infantry unit, not a gamchanging hero.
Had he been a unique named character or was up for debate, but as a regular mook, he's way over the top.
BoomWolf wrote: He actually right though. At mere 60 points, with the rules he's got, he's not only overpowered, he's in bad taste.
A regular nobody face in the crowd shouldnt put the named protagonist/antagonist characters in what he can do, especially not for mere 60 points, that's the realm of a minor basic infantry unit, not a gamchanging hero.
Had he been a unique named character or was up for debate, but as a regular mook, he's way over the top.
Aye I'm going to agree with you on the second part. I think I was one of the first people saying here that I really dislike the flavor of his rules. It clashes with whats established, this guy shouldn't be outshooting the kind of units he is or holding the sort of guns he owns, thematically. Doesn't mean it's time to declare him as OP though, they just missed the flavor, we'll see how strong he is when we play him, just like every other unit that the hivemind has been "sure" about before.
BoomWolf wrote: He actually right though.
At mere 60 points, with the rules he's got, he's not only overpowered, he's in bad taste.
A regular nobody face in the crowd shouldnt put the named protagonist/antagonist characters in what he can do, especially not for mere 60 points, that's the realm of a minor basic infantry unit, not a gamchanging hero.
Had he been a unique named character or was up for debate, but as a regular mook, he's way over the top.
Cypher has been trash the whole edition though. That isn't an argument for nerfing the Keller, is an argument for buffing Cypher.
Keller is strong, no one is denying that. But we don't know how strong honestly. I've been saying this since the start of this thread, but I'm with Shuppet that I am certain he will prove far easier to screen out than people think.
And this isn't even forcing your opponent to play differently. GSC have so many ways of deepstriking you that people will be carefully screening against them regardless.
SHUPPET wrote: "You're not actually reading what I'm writing"
Quite an entertaining choice of words, from a guy who still has yet to address the concept of the iconic horde army using a screen to block a model with 12" range on his guns from blasting at their Warlord. Hell you fell right back on it again in the next sentence here.
I feel like I'm talking to a brick wall. Englishman has decided this unit is broken, and that's it, no more discussion on how or why that might not be the case, if you think we should wait and see how it turns out, you're clearly biased and in denial. "We can't afford to wait to PLAY this unit before complaining, because that means it might take till CA2019 to see it nerfed!". Totally not kneejerky at all.
Please show me where I said the unit is 'broken' or 'OP'? I'll wait. I can tell you the unit is extremely points efficient and because of that it is strong. I said in an earlier post " Strong does not equal OP." Again - read my posts.
Its not 'kneejerky' to think that a unit should be pointed appropriately for what it can do. This unit is hyper efficient. It has been proven without taking into account the buff he provides other units. The unit might not get taken. It may have no synergies with other units/armies/play styles. Regardless I think it should be pointed correctly. A unit doesn't have to be 'meta' to be underpriced.
As to your first point, I don't know if you've played with or against Orks ever but generally our horde is a melee horde. Orks also have the slowest infantry in the game, including our warboss who in almost evert situation you want to get into combat. If he's lingering at the back of a group of Boys he likely won't get into combat and thus is worthless. Hiding a melee beatstick behind chaff is not a counter. Again, its a hamstring.
The true counter I suspect is to take the Boss on Bike (assuming index allowed) who has T5 and can negotiate a screen if he needs be. The problem then is that Painboyz and Mek's on bikes are hideously overcosted and all of these options are index only (so may be disallowed in some tournaments). Not exactly ideal.
E - just read your post that you edited 4 times so I didn't get a chance to see it before I had posted this and gone off to do other things. I'm getting real tired of your idiotic strawman argument. Enough. I consider myself a decent player not that I have anything to prove to you because I'm entitled to an opinion either way. Looks like you've gone into full on survivor mode now. "We need to play with our mega strong units to see if they are mega strong" is the excuse of a poor player. It doesn't take much to see that this unit is too efficient. It has been shown repeatedly. And it exists in a book of efficient units. And it buffs itself and other units. No I'm not going to rewatch a video and time stamp it for you. I can assure you he said these things, those you've questioned specifically were at the start of the video. Ironic you cite him as a defence that this unit is balanced when he says they belong in every list. He said something along the lines of 'Take at least 1, I'm taking 2' and tried to justify it by claiming it was because the 'model and fluff is cool'. He also said; 'Don't tell GW this but they (Acolytes) are probably too cheap now'. Finally you might want to take a step back yourself. When you're accusing people of being a certain type of poster here, when you're editing your posts 3 or 4 times after the fact to continually straw man and when you are breaking rule 1 its time to ease off.
BoomWolf wrote: He actually right though.
At mere 60 points, with the rules he's got, he's not only overpowered, he's in bad taste.
A regular nobody face in the crowd shouldnt put the named protagonist/antagonist characters in what he can do, especially not for mere 60 points, that's the realm of a minor basic infantry unit, not a gamchanging hero.
Had he been a unique named character or was up for debate, but as a regular mook, he's way over the top.
Cypher has been trash the whole edition though. That isn't an argument for nerfing the Keller, is an argument for buffing Cypher.
Keller is strong, no one is denying that. But we don't know how strong honestly. I've been saying this since the start of this thread, but I'm with Shuppet that I am certain he will prove far easier to screen out than people think.
And this isn't even forcing your opponent to play differently. GSC have so many ways of deepstriking you that people will be carefully screening against them regardless.
When exactly did I mention cypher?
The parallel is clear, but its not about him.
The kelermorph puts MOST named characters to shame, and I'm not talking just about game power level (where he still punks dudes double his price with ease) but in the apperance of his effects.
Shooting 6-12 (usually 10) S4 Ap-1 D2 shots is not something that SHOULD be on a minor 60 points dude.
His pistols are way beyond anything that is fluffly right for someone of his "rank" to have. these are SM relic level pistols-they are IDENTICAL to the IF relic pistol! and he has three of them!?
If his pistols were 1D, he MIGHT be acceptable. but as he is-its absurd. and I didn't even go into game balance right.
And when you look at game balance, yet again he's outright broken. 60 points for his level of firepower is already probably too much.
60 points for that level of firepower when you can deepstrike, and directly target characters if you manage to sneak into range, plus providing an aura on top of it all? that's just ridiculous.
He's an assassin, chaff clearer and buffbot rolled into one-while costing about what a unit doing only one of the tree costs at the lower end.
If anyone would make anything even remotely like this in homebrew sections people would wail on them for marry-sueing and making blatantly OP stuff for their army.
There is no question if its OP or not, just if its "OP enough to take 3 every list" or "OP enough to single-handedly break the game"
I’ve picked up my Keller today, and there’s several fluff justifications for why he’s so strong - firstly he has a bullet-time ability thanks to a bio-engineered “cocktail of supersensory stimilulants” which let him “pick out individual grains of sand drifting though the air” whilst dodging lightning from a techpriest. Secondly, acolyte hybrids (of which the Keller is one) are confirmed to have greatly enhanced lifespans compared to humans. Thirdly, his guns fire depleted tarantrium bullets which are made through the willing sacrifice of dozens of workers using “ionised residue gathered from the munitions factories and extractor pits”. So essential he has macguffin bullets that are really hard to make.
C4790M wrote: I’ve picked up my Keller today, and there’s several fluff justifications for why he’s so strong - firstly he has a bullet-time ability thanks to a bio-engineered “cocktail of supersensory stimilulants” which let him “pick out individual grains of sand drifting though the air” whilst dodging lightning from a techpriest. Secondly, acolyte hybrids (of which the Keller is one) are confirmed to have greatly enhanced lifespans compared to humans. Thirdly, his guns fire depleted tarantrium bullets which are made through the willing sacrifice of dozens of workers using “ionised residue gathered from the munitions factories and extractor pits”. So essential he has macguffin bullets that are really hard to make.
So, nothing that justifies imo that his pistols are S4.
Great.
He has a long lifespan, like yarrick with rejuv? Yarrick also costs more then double of him and comes not close to the same damage output. Straken? ain't got gak on that dude.
He outperforms and instagibs nearly all SM and CSM charachters that are neither a DP or in terminator armor and even those begin to gak bricks when the relic pistol get's involved. Not to mention he has a double shooting stratagem handy on top of his double shooting, YAAAAAYYYYYY, which he allready can abuse for a free reroll 1's aura if chaff is involved, so scrrening itself is not even close to usefull against him, forcing all of these charachters to hide.
Yeah no, what a poster before me said, if it were an homebrew charachter it would be regarded as a marry sue.
His particular shooting skills and reflexes seem to be accounted for rather well in his special abilities, with him being able to single out Characters in a crowd, firing three weapons at the same time and generating additional hits doing so.
The weapons profile is still wildly out of place and inconsistent with established lore and other weapon profiles. It looks to me like GW wanted to give him rules that make him awesome on the table, but didnt't really know how to do it with GSC grade equipment, so they pulled a cheap one by giving him magic guns and putting him ad an absurdly low point cost.
Maybe it indicates that I have become a rules>>>>>fluff kind of guy now, but I don't get this issue with this guns.
Are you saying if GW had called his pistols "micro-mining laser blasters", and added plasma-style ribs to them that they could paint with glowing patterns, you'd have gone "well that's fine then."
Tyel wrote: Maybe it indicates that I have become a rules>>>>>fluff kind of guy now, but I don't get this issue with this guns.
Are you saying if GW had called his pistols "micro-mining laser blasters", and added plasma-style ribs to them that they could paint with glowing patterns, you'd have gone "well that's fine then."
Probably not fine if they weren't priced accordingly, but better than what we've got now? Definitely. It's not even a deal breaker - it's just lazy and I'd expect more from people who make their living designing these things and fleshing out the setting.
Tyel wrote: Maybe it indicates that I have become a rules>>>>>fluff kind of guy now, but I don't get this issue with this guns.
Are you saying if GW had called his pistols "micro-mining laser blasters", and added plasma-style ribs to them that they could paint with glowing patterns, you'd have gone "well that's fine then."
It wouldn't be wrong or bad, if other factions didn't get their rules delivered in nerfed form or over priced based on fluff. Kind of a can't have a balanced gaming system, when some classes are hand tailored with clearly design spending a lot of time and thought in their mechanics and how they should work, and others being a copy past of work in progress index books.
There is nothing wrong with units being good, save for some super rare times when a unit is really too good or warps the meta by its existance, in fact I am on the stance that book should be jam packed with good options to pick from. The more the better. But some stuff just makes no sense at all. Some of the GSC characters have more extra rules, then half the line up in marine books. The different cult actually feel different, the stratagams feel as if made for GSC. Why can't other armies get the same treatment or at least expect it?
Tyel wrote: Maybe it indicates that I have become a rules>>>>>fluff kind of guy now, but I don't get this issue with this guns.
Are you saying if GW had called his pistols "micro-mining laser blasters", and added plasma-style ribs to them that they could paint with glowing patterns, you'd have gone "well that's fine then."
Yea I don't care about the fluff of them, either. They could fix the strength of the model by dropping them to D1 though.
Tyel wrote: Maybe it indicates that I have become a rules>>>>>fluff kind of guy now, but I don't get this issue with this guns.
Are you saying if GW had called his pistols "micro-mining laser blasters", and added plasma-style ribs to them that they could paint with glowing patterns, you'd have gone "well that's fine then."
It's two separate issues for me.
Firstly the fluff, I play this game because I like the setting, that's what got me into the game. A snub pistol is basically a gun like we make today, sure he's got some fancy ammo but the setting tells us that snub pistols are utter garbage so seeing this one pop up as being the best pistol in the game is immersion breaking, if it was called a "plasma burst pistol or a Psy-charged hand cannon" I wouldn't have any issues with it fluff wise. They are the ones who set out the rules of the setting and should be expected to follow them unless they have good reason not to. These snub pistols being so good doesn't do any harm to the balance of the game it just annoys people (obviously I'm not the only one) who think the issue could have been pretty simply avoided by giving them a different name.
People saying that the rules don't have to represent the fluff is true to a degree but they should at least try, that's kind of the whole point of having a game system to run games set in a particular fictional universe.
Rules wise obviously pistols can have the stats his does, although they are likely the best non relic pistols we have see to date, but being on a character that is so cheap and gets them for free is the rules issue. Obvious its built into his cost but I feel like they have costed out all of his abilities individually and not given consideration to how they work together. This often happens with units comboing together to make an effect more powerful than expected for their cost but to have that on a single model that's abilities so obviously enhance each other is a little worrying.
(Multiple shots pistols are usually very weak and plasma is only dam2 with gets hot, melta has severe range issues)
Obviously very few games have been played with the model so far and he could turn out to be just pretty good for reasons that have not been forseen but most people who post on forums like this have been playing the game for some time and have likey logged hundreds of hours of game play. I know I have.
This experience gives me the ability to judge the merits of a model by looking at its datasheet and comparing what I expect it to be able to do in a game to its points cost. I can work out its effectiveness against different unit types, I can assess it in relation to other models with a similar role or price point.
Sure game play experience helps with this assessment but I don't think anyone is under the illusion that this model is going to be extremely powerful for his points. Game breaking? no I don't think so. Even if he is costed at half what he should be that's only giving you a couple of a % points boost on a 2000pt army which isn't really a big deal but is just annoying to see.
I suspect those £40 killteam sets featuring this guy are selling out fast, so we'll soon see what they are like on the tabletop I'm sure.
C4790M wrote: I’ve picked up my Keller today, and there’s several fluff justifications for why he’s so strong - firstly he has a bullet-time ability thanks to a bio-engineered “cocktail of supersensory stimilulants” which let him “pick out individual grains of sand drifting though the air” whilst dodging lightning from a techpriest. Secondly, acolyte hybrids (of which the Keller is one) are confirmed to have greatly enhanced lifespans compared to humans. Thirdly, his guns fire depleted tarantrium bullets which are made through the willing sacrifice of dozens of workers using “ionised residue gathered from the munitions factories and extractor pits”. So essential he has macguffin bullets that are really hard to make.
I give you Cypher. 10000 years of expiriance,bio modified, armed with relics of golden age. So exeptionless that he was writen in fluff to be so fast with his plasma gun, that abadon the uber champion of chaos buffed to be on pair with greater demons and primarchs could not see when Cypher pulled his plasma pistol and shot one of his termintors, which was a again a powerful champion of chaos in his own right. Cypher rules are crap.
As special ammo goes. GK use ammo buffed with the residue from the emperors throne room. In fluff they are destructive like no other ammo same size, and get even more powerful against psykers, demons, sorceres. The bolts themself can be made even stronger if the shoter focuses his power in to the weapon. Rules do not equal fluff. But making some random worker rebel, better armed and more efficient then a trained human super soldider is not logical, and by logic I mean the rules that govern w40k. It is a strickt change to fluff just to put in a new model.
Honestly it doesn't take a wiz to realize he breaks the game somewhat on a math level too.
Even if we put aside the reroll granted once you kill something as technically you shoot the pistols one at a time.
And you put aside any support elements, stratagems, the relic and whatnot that can make him EVEN WORSE.
The result are staggering.
He will have a 70.2% to deal 2*2 wounds to MeQ, and 41% to do 3*2 wounds to MeQ.
Now, MeQ are not exactly top tier, but the fact is that this 60 point dude will have a 70% to take out 2 intercessors on his drop (over half his price), and 40% to take down 3 (almost his price)
But if you got some helblasters, devs and whatnot, 2 kills already put you above your price. 3 kills puts you over 150% your price.
And if he gets a character? a 4 wounds dude like a libby or apoth is dead 70% of the time.
As I said, MeQ are hardly shining already-but this just hammers them down to oblivion on its own.
For perspective, he's got 80.7%/46.2% to kill 1 or 2 TeQ on the drop. same goes for bikers and other T5-7s with a 3+ doing 2/4 wounds at 80.7%/46.2%.
Against GeQ statlines, he's 63.6% likely to kill 5 dudes with 2 wounds each (so, 5 HWT if you got line the shots)
There is basically no target he's BAD against other than full-blown T8 monstrosities.
From the mere perspective of mulching stuff on the drop, he's doing enough damage that if you put a single "heavy weapon" type unit in the backline, he's more likely than not killing more than enough to earn his pay on the very moment he drops-and if not quickly cleared, he can easily rank 5 times his price over a game.
Then you pile up the fact he provides an aura, and can sometimes pull off assassinations of key models-and that besides padding every single valuable unit you've got with infinite chaff there is NOTHING you can do about it, but for the player running him he is no investment to take as he's just that cheap?
Yea, he's breaking stuff. not even by BEING there, but by the fact he COULD be there, he further and heavily enforces the "everything must be insanely durable, or useless chaff" meta.
Because as long something this cheap, and this lethal is around-you can't really play any infantry-based heavy support teams, 2W models suck even more then they already do, characters that do not stick directly to a chaff line are non-viable, etc.
He enforces every issue with the current meta even further, and killing any opportunity to break out of the stagnation of "chaff and knights" style armies.
An assassin type character who is also perfectly good at just gunning down goons, and provides an aura on top of it-is very much not healthy for the game.
He's not only obviously too strong, he's in poor taste but in flavor and in mechanics. this one unit, is a design flop.
He should have had D1 pistols, because even then he'd still be pretty darn impressive.
Yeah, at the end of the day I really do not think it's Keller that's going to be stopping anyone from breaking out of the 'chaff and knights' paradigm.
Take this for example:
Let's say there was a new named character released for the guard who was a special company commander identical in stats in every way, except that he let you take his bodyguard, which was a unit of imperial guardsmen who only cost 10 points.
You could look at those Guardsmen and go "holy crap, this is the highest value unit in the entire game! They're an auto-include! They make their points back effortlessly! They're an insult to game balance!"
You'd be right on all counts. But, that unit and its existence would make absolutely no impact on the competitive meta of the game, besides making guard armies the most microscopic fraction stronger. Nobody would change their list to plan for the one unit of guardsmen at 10 points. nobody would change their gameplan.
Keller is a 60 point suicide model who unlike other suicide models like marbo/lictors/assassin/whatever, actually reliably makes his points back on the drop. He's obviously undercosted for what he does, and so he is very reliable at getting that 100% points return trade for his inevitable instant death (and let's be realistic....he's pretty much always going to die unless his opponent's army is totally crippled in the GSC alpha strike. Him surviving to turn 2 is a "win more" situation). If his pistols were D1, he'd be just as bad as Marbo/Assassins/Lictors/Whatever, and so just like all of them he'd pretty much never be included, and the standard game of herohammer would continue with no real counters. A platoon commander would still be far more durable than a 12-wound giant tyranid monster because people get very sensitive about something that can actually remove their favorite heroes. Why do you think nearly every sniper unit in the game takes an average of 2-3 headshots to kill a 30 point guard commander?
Keller's design was obviously Game Design First, Fluff Second. Design his offensive output so he could reliably kill a character on the drop so that he works as a game piece. If he was a gunslinger guy with three regular S3 AP- D1 stub pistols, the amount of special rules they'd have to stack on him to make him ever capable of even wounding a character would need to be so ludicrous it wouldn't even be funny.
I don't think the character archetype of the "closerange pistol-wielding character assassin" works with proper rules for 60pts. I think the best way forward is to make him functional rules-wise (able to reasonably down a character maybe with CP expenditure on the drop) but reasonable price wise, somewhere around 90-100pts.
You'd be right on all counts. But, that unit and its existence would make absolutely no impact on the competitive meta of the game,
That may be true, but breaking/shifting the meta is not the only relevant criterion when considering how well a unit is designed. If something is powerful enough to shift the meta, than that's just a subcategory of "too strong".
Kelermorph might not be that, but it's still in the category of "too strong" and possibly in the subcategory "much too strong"
Making his Pistols D1 could have made him useless, but it's not like GW can freely invent special rules to make him worth his points in the niche they've chosen for him. It's just that they are not very good at this thing.
If he was a gunslinger guy with three regular S3 AP- D1 stub pistols, the amount of special rules they'd have to stack on him to make him ever capable of even wounding a character would need to be so ludicrous it wouldn't even be funny.
If he had S3 AP- D1 he'd be around 25 points at best if he had the existing rules(shoot more and inspire).
There is currently a problem with characters in the game. Either they have to be able to do a lot of burst damage(Kelermorph, Smash Captain) or they must be good at boosting considerably(Roboute, Azrael). If those units can't do that then most people will eschew them for something worthwhile as a slot wasted is one slot closer to losing.
I don't know that he's going to be so easy to use.
Can't readily deploy within 9" of the enemy. Only has short ranged pistols. Without forethought, he may struggle to get to any 'worth it' targets - especially against an opponent that knows to keep an eye out for him.
He's soft, squishy and fragile, so is going to take finesse to be effective against characters.
Me? I think he's an excellent objective sweeper. Let him open up, do some damage. Boost up other incoming firepower, and let something else claim the objective after an assault. And that is where I think he'll be the real threat. Characters? I'll use the Assassin and the Biker Chick. Nobble them from further away.
Can't readily deploy within 9" of the enemy. Only has short ranged pistols. Without forethought, he may struggle to get to any 'worth it' targets - especially against an opponent that knows to keep an eye out for him.
He's soft, squishy and fragile, so is going to take finesse to be effective against characters.
Me? I think he's an excellent objective sweeper. Let him open up, do some damage. Boost up other incoming firepower, and let something else claim the objective after an assault. And that is where I think he'll be the real threat. Characters? I'll use the Assassin and the Biker Chick. Nobble them from further away.
If he, and he can, casually wipes off a Infantry squad of guardsmen he has 2/3rds of his points back and now generates an aura for his fellows.
I can't see any situation where he can't make his points back except you throw him into a bunch of grots and even THEN he still dent's the chaff and makes protected units now attackable via forcing open the screens.
If he was a gunslinger guy with three regular S3 AP- D1 stub pistols, the amount of special rules they'd have to stack on him to make him ever capable of even wounding a character would need to be so ludicrous it wouldn't even be funny.
If he had S3 AP- D1 he'd be around 25 points at best if he had the existing rules(shoot more and inspire).
There is currently a problem with characters in the game. Either they have to be able to do a lot of burst damage(Kelermorph, Smash Captain) or they must be good at boosting considerably(Roboute, Azrael). If those units can't do that then most people will eschew them for something worthwhile as a slot wasted is one slot closer to losing.
You forgot good at killing elite targets, e.g. Smashcaptain.
You know, in terms of the Meta....what if GSC's various ways to knobble characters is a deliberate decision by GW, rather than some design oversight?
If they can reliably pick off enemy characters, that changes the meta to some degree. Smashcaptaincy etc is still potent, but now faces a pretty solid counter, making it less of a sure thing, and in theory, less prevalent.
Perhaps SoB/Black Legion (whichever comes next) continues that trend into their book, increasing the chance of coming up against that risk.
Then, use the next Codecies out of the stable to tackle a different 'abuse' of the game.
It's certainly an interesting way of doing things, if I'm right.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Back to the Kelermorph.
I'm definitely taking one, because he's useful and the model is gorgeous. And for 60 poins, why the devil not?
But I don't intend to build my list around him. Instead, he'll just be a roving threat, possibly a very deliberate sacrificial prawn (because there's no prawn better than one your opponent has to deal with then and there) to distract my opponent.
Dunno if peeps have seen the imgur pics, but for a measly 1CP, we can keep our Tactical Objectives secret from our opponents. That appeals to my sense of cunning. Is my Kelermorph moving in to bag a VP, or simply there to make you paranoid, and try to tackle him? Maybe it's both and I'm hedging my bets. Who knows? Not you....
Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote: You know, in terms of the Meta....what if GSC's various ways to knobble characters is a deliberate decision by GW, rather than some design oversight?
If they can reliably pick off enemy characters, that changes the meta to some degree. Smashcaptaincy etc is still potent, but now faces a pretty solid counter, making it less of a sure thing, and in theory, less prevalent.
Perhaps SoB/Black Legion (whichever comes next) continues that trend into their book, increasing the chance of coming up against that risk.
Then, use the next Codecies out of the stable to tackle a different 'abuse' of the game.
It's certainly an interesting way of doing things, if I'm right.
That's an interesting point you bring up about GW using Keller to shift the meta...
On a side note, even though I probably will never play Kill Teams, I picked up a box of Starn's Disciples yesterday too. Just to good a deal for US$65. =)
Can't readily deploy within 9" of the enemy. Only has short ranged pistols. Without forethought, he may struggle to get to any 'worth it' targets - especially against an opponent that knows to keep an eye out for him.
He's soft, squishy and fragile, so is going to take finesse to be effective against characters.
Me? I think he's an excellent objective sweeper. Let him open up, do some damage. Boost up other incoming firepower, and let something else claim the objective after an assault. And that is where I think he'll be the real threat. Characters? I'll use the Assassin and the Biker Chick. Nobble them from further away.
No, it really isn't the case.
Its very VERY easy to catch a "worth it" target, because almost everything in the game is worth it considering his low cost and high damage output.
he's soft, squishy and fragile-in an army that can shove a ton of it's own chaff at you to cover him-so even the fact he "instantly dies" is very much not a guarantee. a keler living to fight another round or two isn't even going to be rare if you are not going balls-deep with him on a solo mission.
The problem with the keler is not that he's too good at assassinating stuff (though he might also be that, remains to be seen), its that he's too good against ANYTHING you throw him at.
Any backline unit is a viable target, any character not covered in heavy amounts of wrapping is a viable target, heck even vehicles are viable targets given that he's better than 2 BS3 lascannons against them.
The only thing he wont turn Swiss is chaff so cheap it really doesn't care about casualties-but if you used your keler against THAT, then you got nobody else to blame, as given the wide array of good targets not finding a single one is practically a challenge.
And then he's still boosting his own chaff to better take out the enemy chaff.
If the goal was to make an assassin-they failed. because he's not an assassin-he murders anything and everything, and piles up being a support character on top of it.
Sure, its good that you got stuff you can master and then they are really good to set the good players apart from the bad.
But a keler is amazing even in the hands of a totally incompetent player by sheer numbers, and then he piles up all the opportunity for pros to milk far far more on top of that with skilled use.
I wonder if they could've fixed his chaff clearing abilities by giving him the extra shots only if he fires at a character. Call it legendary duelist or whatever. Personally I don't care about the fact that his guns are way too good to be called stub-guns, but seeing how many people that irks it probably would've been better to call them master crafted hand cannons or something.
You forgot good at killing elite targets, e.g. Smashcaptain.
I thought that was heavily implied with "good at burst damage"?
Not really, the damage smashcaptain does is more specifically good against multi wound models. Not so much against chaff.
Then you are putting more explicit meaning into the wording "burst damage" that I never stated.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
I wonder if they could've fixed his chaff clearing abilities by giving him the extra shots only if he fires at a character.
Good point. What is needed is a bit of designer's commentary on what they were thinking when they designed him. The problem with new units that are exceptional is that one never knows what the intended use was for these units.
Can't readily deploy within 9" of the enemy. Only has short ranged pistols. Without forethought, he may struggle to get to any 'worth it' targets - especially against an opponent that knows to keep an eye out for him.
He's soft, squishy and fragile, so is going to take finesse to be effective against characters.
Me? I think he's an excellent objective sweeper. Let him open up, do some damage. Boost up other incoming firepower, and let something else claim the objective after an assault. And that is where I think he'll be the real threat. Characters? I'll use the Assassin and the Biker Chick. Nobble them from further away.
If he, and he can, casually wipes off a Infantry squad of guardsmen he has 2/3rds of his points back and now generates an aura for his fellows.
I can't see any situation where he can't make his points back except you throw him into a bunch of grots and even THEN he still dent's the chaff and makes protected units now attackable via forcing open the screens.
If he was a gunslinger guy with three regular S3 AP- D1 stub pistols, the amount of special rules they'd have to stack on him to make him ever capable of even wounding a character would need to be so ludicrous it wouldn't even be funny.
If he had S3 AP- D1 he'd be around 25 points at best if he had the existing rules(shoot more and inspire).
There is currently a problem with characters in the game. Either they have to be able to do a lot of burst damage(Kelermorph, Smash Captain) or they must be good at boosting considerably(Roboute, Azrael). If those units can't do that then most people will eschew them for something worthwhile as a slot wasted is one slot closer to losing.
You forgot good at killing elite targets, e.g. Smashcaptain.
I'm playing admech, eldar, grey knights, deathwatch, blood angels, dark angels, space wolves, or space marines, and I use my 2cp "shoot you when you deep strike" strat to explode him when he arrives. Or I'm playing orks and I use grot shields.
If he has to pay 3+ Cp to make his points back, I'd call that pretty solidly not worth for a 60pt unit. (3cp to vect that stratagem or not die).
Also, another scenario I can think of is "I'm playing a competitively-built drukhari list, nurgle daemon focused chaos list or imperium soup list, pretty much everything present in today's competitive meta, and he has no good target to hunt"
Can't readily deploy within 9" of the enemy. Only has short ranged pistols. Without forethought, he may struggle to get to any 'worth it' targets - especially against an opponent that knows to keep an eye out for him.
He's soft, squishy and fragile, so is going to take finesse to be effective against characters.
Me? I think he's an excellent objective sweeper. Let him open up, do some damage. Boost up other incoming firepower, and let something else claim the objective after an assault. And that is where I think he'll be the real threat. Characters? I'll use the Assassin and the Biker Chick. Nobble them from further away.
If he, and he can, casually wipes off a Infantry squad of guardsmen he has 2/3rds of his points back and now generates an aura for his fellows.
I can't see any situation where he can't make his points back except you throw him into a bunch of grots and even THEN he still dent's the chaff and makes protected units now attackable via forcing open the screens.
If he was a gunslinger guy with three regular S3 AP- D1 stub pistols, the amount of special rules they'd have to stack on him to make him ever capable of even wounding a character would need to be so ludicrous it wouldn't even be funny.
If he had S3 AP- D1 he'd be around 25 points at best if he had the existing rules(shoot more and inspire).
There is currently a problem with characters in the game. Either they have to be able to do a lot of burst damage(Kelermorph, Smash Captain) or they must be good at boosting considerably(Roboute, Azrael). If those units can't do that then most people will eschew them for something worthwhile as a slot wasted is one slot closer to losing.
You forgot good at killing elite targets, e.g. Smashcaptain.
I'm playing admech, eldar, grey knights, deathwatch, blood angels, dark angels, space wolves, or space marines, and I use my 2cp "shoot you when you deep strike" strat to explode him when he arrives. Or I'm playing orks and I use grot shields.
If he has to pay 3+ Cp to make his points back, I'd call that pretty solidly not worth for a 60pt unit. (3cp to vect that stratagem or not die).
Also, another scenario I can think of is "I'm playing a competitively-built drukhari list, nurgle daemon focused chaos list or imperium soup list, pretty much everything present in today's competitive meta, and he has no good target to hunt"
Yeah, because Genestealer Cults are going to have soooooo many issues when it comes to generating CP as everything in the army is expensive and they can't cheaply fill in any of their FOC slots.
Can't readily deploy within 9" of the enemy. Only has short ranged pistols. Without forethought, he may struggle to get to any 'worth it' targets - especially against an opponent that knows to keep an eye out for him.
He's soft, squishy and fragile, so is going to take finesse to be effective against characters.
Me? I think he's an excellent objective sweeper. Let him open up, do some damage. Boost up other incoming firepower, and let something else claim the objective after an assault. And that is where I think he'll be the real threat. Characters? I'll use the Assassin and the Biker Chick. Nobble them from further away.
If he, and he can, casually wipes off a Infantry squad of guardsmen he has 2/3rds of his points back and now generates an aura for his fellows.
I can't see any situation where he can't make his points back except you throw him into a bunch of grots and even THEN he still dent's the chaff and makes protected units now attackable via forcing open the screens.
If he was a gunslinger guy with three regular S3 AP- D1 stub pistols, the amount of special rules they'd have to stack on him to make him ever capable of even wounding a character would need to be so ludicrous it wouldn't even be funny.
If he had S3 AP- D1 he'd be around 25 points at best if he had the existing rules(shoot more and inspire).
There is currently a problem with characters in the game. Either they have to be able to do a lot of burst damage(Kelermorph, Smash Captain) or they must be good at boosting considerably(Roboute, Azrael). If those units can't do that then most people will eschew them for something worthwhile as a slot wasted is one slot closer to losing.
You forgot good at killing elite targets, e.g. Smashcaptain.
I'm playing admech, eldar, grey knights, deathwatch, blood angels, dark angels, space wolves, or space marines, and I use my 2cp "shoot you when you deep strike" strat to explode him when he arrives. Or I'm playing orks and I use grot shields.
If he has to pay 3+ Cp to make his points back, I'd call that pretty solidly not worth for a 60pt unit. (3cp to vect that stratagem or not die).
Also, another scenario I can think of is "I'm playing a competitively-built drukhari list, nurgle daemon focused chaos list or imperium soup list, pretty much everything present in today's competitive meta, and he has no good target to hunt"
Yeah, because Genestealer Cults are going to have soooooo many issues when it comes to generating CP as everything in the army is expensive and they can't cheaply fill in any of their FOC slots.
If First Rank Fire, Second Rank Fire was a 2cp stratagem I don't think it'd get used even if you could use it to make 40 points back on your guard squad instantly. 2cp to get close enough to hit a character behind a screen, 3cp to shoot twice, and 3cp to vect a stratagem is a really inefficient use of Cp even if you have 20 and it makes you back 120 points. In a different list I can use those 8cp to make a smashcaptain return 500% of his points value vs a knight.
Not Online!!! wrote:So, nothing that justifies imo that his pistols are S4.
Great.
BertBert wrote:The weapons profile is still wildly out of place and inconsistent with established lore and other weapon profiles.
Step 1: Chamber a pistol in the same caliber fired by a heavy stubber. GSC have tons of those. That makes a S4 gun.
Step 2: Hand-load consecrated grimdark magic bullets. That makes D2.
Step 3: There is no step 3. That is the entire sequence of logic needed to justify the statline. It's a high-caliber pistol with special bullets. It's the same strength as the bolt pistol carried by every podunk officer in the Imperium, but with D2 because it's a master-crafted weapon with supernatural ammunition wielded by an inhumanly good marksman. What about that is inconsistent with the rest of the game?
Is this one of those 'xenos shouldn't ever have better stuff than my marines' things? Like I get how the fact that he has three of them and special rules to allow him to delete a character can be a balance concern, but complaining about pistols being S4? Really?
Except Imperial Guard would be able to use it if they wanted every phase as they can comfortably fill up a Brigade with no trash units and a Battalion on top of it. Also don't forget they have allies that want to use their CP whereas Cults don't have that many ally options.
So who cares if they spend 2CP to make sure the character is dead? They already have at minimum 15CP.
Not Online!!! wrote:So, nothing that justifies imo that his pistols are S4.
Great.
BertBert wrote:The weapons profile is still wildly out of place and inconsistent with established lore and other weapon profiles.
Step 1: Chamber a pistol in the same caliber fired by a heavy stubber. GSC have tons of those. That makes a S4 gun.
Step 2: Hand-load consecrated grimdark magic bullets. That makes D2.
Step 3: There is no step 3. That is the entire sequence of logic needed to justify the statline. It's a high-caliber pistol with special bullets. It's the same strength as the bolt pistol carried by every podunk officer in the Imperium, but with D2 because it's a master-crafted weapon with supernatural ammunition wielded by an inhumanly good marksman. What about that is inconsistent with the rest of the game?
Is this one of those 'xenos shouldn't ever have better stuff than my marines' things? Like I get how the fact that he has three of them and special rules to allow him to delete a character can be a balance concern, but complaining about pistols being S4? Really?
No, its not 'xenos shouldn't ever have better stuff than my marines' thing. ffs I play tau, our base gun puts the bolter to shame.
But a STANDARD ISSUE piece of gear belonging to a nobody shouldn't be IDENTICAL to a chapter-spesific relic, who is based of a superior weapon to begin with.
Step 4: Add some more magic to make what is basically a revolver Pistol 2
Step 5: Sprinkle a bit of fairy dust on the Heavy Stubber caliber rounds to make them -1 AP
You can explain away anything if you really want, but that's not a good excuse. It's also not the main issue about the Kelermorph, just a minor nitpick, really.
Not Online!!! wrote:So, nothing that justifies imo that his pistols are S4.
Great.
BertBert wrote:The weapons profile is still wildly out of place and inconsistent with established lore and other weapon profiles.
Step 1: Chamber a pistol in the same caliber fired by a heavy stubber. GSC have tons of those. That makes a S4 gun.
Step 2: Hand-load consecrated grimdark magic bullets. That makes D2.
Step 3: There is no step 3. That is the entire sequence of logic needed to justify the statline. It's a high-caliber pistol with special bullets. It's the same strength as the bolt pistol carried by every podunk officer in the Imperium, but with D2 because it's a master-crafted weapon with supernatural ammunition wielded by an inhumanly good marksman. What about that is inconsistent with the rest of the game?
Is this one of those 'xenos shouldn't ever have better stuff than my marines' things? Like I get how the fact that he has three of them and special rules to allow him to delete a character can be a balance concern, but complaining about pistols being S4? Really?
No, its not 'xenos shouldn't ever have better stuff than my marines' thing. ffs I play tau, our base gun puts the bolter to shame.
But a STANDARD ISSUE piece of gear belonging to a nobody shouldn't be IDENTICAL to a chapter-spesific relic, who is based of a superior weapon to begin with.
So if his name was Jeans Dealer, Named Gunslinging Gene Stealing Hero of the Wild West and his fluff was that he was cloned by the hive-mind so he could appear in each hive generation, and his guns were called mega-bolt space six-shooters (tm games workshop PLC 2019) then you'd be fine with him?
Not Online!!! wrote:So, nothing that justifies imo that his pistols are S4.
Great.
BertBert wrote:The weapons profile is still wildly out of place and inconsistent with established lore and other weapon profiles.
Step 1: Chamber a pistol in the same caliber fired by a heavy stubber. GSC have tons of those. That makes a S4 gun.
Step 2: Hand-load consecrated grimdark magic bullets. That makes D2.
Step 3: There is no step 3. That is the entire sequence of logic needed to justify the statline. It's a high-caliber pistol with special bullets. It's the same strength as the bolt pistol carried by every podunk officer in the Imperium, but with D2 because it's a master-crafted weapon with supernatural ammunition wielded by an inhumanly good marksman. What about that is inconsistent with the rest of the game?
Is this one of those 'xenos shouldn't ever have better stuff than my marines' things? Like I get how the fact that he has three of them and special rules to allow him to delete a character can be a balance concern, but complaining about pistols being S4? Really?
1. We are still talking about stub pistols, you know. Not even a Autopistol,off which several versions exist which would fit better.
2. The bullets are not the issue. See Ripperpistol which is an Autopistol,btw.
Edit: not to mention that Ripper Pistols would make sense in such a high aquirable quantity.
"This modified Autopistol fires specially designed armour-piercing metal shards containing a vicious cocktail of venomous chemicals with deadly accuracy. The initial wounds caused by the shards allow the venom to enter the victim's bloodstream and cause death, and thus the weapon can bring down the largest opponents in a single shot. It is designed so that if the vicious impact of the bullet doesn’t kill the target, the poisons flooding into its bloodstream will. Often, they are the final word in terminal close encounters. Ripper Pistol is favoured by those who venture into hostile jungle planets and Death Worlds.[4][8]"
See this:http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Autopistol
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: Except Imperial Guard would be able to use it if they wanted every phase as they can comfortably fill up a Brigade with no trash units and a Battalion on top of it. Also don't forget they have allies that want to use their CP whereas Cults don't have that many ally options.
So who cares if they spend 2CP to make sure the character is dead? They already have at minimum 15CP.
Cults have plenty of things competing for those CPs/stratagems.
That 2cp strat yu used to get keller past a screen could have been used to get 20 hand flamers in range to shoot out of deep strike.
That 3CP strat that makes him shoot twice can be used to make 20 neophytes double tap.
The only thing that really can be repeated is the vect strat because it doesn't have the fAQ nerf that they put on the dark eldar's version of it (yet, we will see after the 2-week FAQ) because your opponent is unlikely to have any other stratagems they want to use in your movement phase.
This thread kind of reads like a bunch of people who've been throwing Rock for two years, and are suddenly upset when someone shows up with Paper. My advise? Bring Scissors.
Can't readily deploy within 9" of the enemy. Only has short ranged pistols. Without forethought, he may struggle to get to any 'worth it' targets - especially against an opponent that knows to keep an eye out for him.
He's soft, squishy and fragile, so is going to take finesse to be effective against characters.
Me? I think he's an excellent objective sweeper. Let him open up, do some damage. Boost up other incoming firepower, and let something else claim the objective after an assault. And that is where I think he'll be the real threat. Characters? I'll use the Assassin and the Biker Chick. Nobble them from further away.
He's very easy to use. All GSC need to do is pick off things that might get in his way. As the game progresses there are fewer and fewer units to shield with and fewer still if you want to actually control objectives.
A supreme of devourer tyrants and two GSC detachments each with a KM. Save some aberrants for turn 3 when you get to charge knights. Stick a Locus near the relic KM to HI and fight first with 4 WS2 S4 AP3 D2 attacks.
Anyone who thinks he's ok at 60 is nuts. Bare minimum of 90 or D1 weapons is required.
Can't readily deploy within 9" of the enemy. Only has short ranged pistols. Without forethought, he may struggle to get to any 'worth it' targets - especially against an opponent that knows to keep an eye out for him.
He's soft, squishy and fragile, so is going to take finesse to be effective against characters.
Me? I think he's an excellent objective sweeper. Let him open up, do some damage. Boost up other incoming firepower, and let something else claim the objective after an assault. And that is where I think he'll be the real threat. Characters? I'll use the Assassin and the Biker Chick. Nobble them from further away.
He's very easy to use. All GSC need to do is pick off things that might get in his way. As the game progresses there are fewer and fewer units to shield with and fewer still if you want to actually control objectives.
A supreme of devourer tyrants and two GSC detachments each with a KM. Save some aberrants for turn 3 when you get to charge knights. Stick a Locus near the relic KM to HI and fight first with 4 WS2 S4 AP3 D2 attacks.
Anyone who thinks he's ok at 60 is nuts. Bare minimum of 90 or D1 weapons is required.
He's not OK at 60, and you'll see earlier in the thread where I say I'd rather see him at 90 or 100 points. I think at 60 with D1 weapons he'd be a pointless never-include because he'd never successfully kill a character worth anywhere near his points value. He'd be the same as every other neutered to hell sniper/character assassin in the game who can never get past the huge wall of wounds and invuln saves 8th ed puts on every character all the way down to weenie 30 point company commanders. People just hate getting assassinated in practically every game that exists, so theyre used to models like that being utterly useless/only effective if you get absurdly lucky.
You can understand that a thing is problematically overcosted without going down the self-pity rabbit hole and believing that there's NEVER a situation where it's possible to use him badly/no way to counter him ever and all you can do is sit and sniffle in the corner over your dead space marine captain.
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: Except Imperial Guard would be able to use it if they wanted every phase as they can comfortably fill up a Brigade with no trash units and a Battalion on top of it. Also don't forget they have allies that want to use their CP whereas Cults don't have that many ally options.
So who cares if they spend 2CP to make sure the character is dead? They already have at minimum 15CP.
Cults have plenty of things competing for those CPs/stratagems.
That 2cp strat yu used to get keller past a screen could have been used to get 20 hand flamers in range to shoot out of deep strike.
That 3CP strat that makes him shoot twice can be used to make 20 neophytes double tap.
The only thing that really can be repeated is the vect strat because it doesn't have the fAQ nerf that they put on the dark eldar's version of it (yet, we will see after the 2-week FAQ) because your opponent is unlikely to have any other stratagems they want to use in your movement phase.
And sure, the Strategems that Blood Angels could use for a larger group of Death Company or Sanguine Guard get used on a single model they throw in as a suicide unit too. What's your point? Larger units make better use of Strategems? That's old news.
Cults have plenty of things competing for those CPs/stratagems.
That 2cp strat yu used to get keller past a screen could have been used to get 20 hand flamers in range to shoot out of deep strike.
That 3CP strat that makes him shoot twice can be used to make 20 neophytes double tap.
The only thing that really can be repeated is the vect strat because it doesn't have the fAQ nerf that they put on the dark eldar's version of it (yet, we will see after the 2-week FAQ) because your opponent is unlikely to have any other stratagems they want to use in your movement phase.
But those hand flamer hybrids are 19 points each. 20 of them score 4.4 wounds on MEQ and 13 wounds on GEQ.
The relic KM kills 5 MEQ (or 10 total MEQ wounds) and 10 GEQ (or 20 GEQ wounds).
Why spend almost 400 points to do something that 60 points can do? Even if Hybrid points come down there is no comparison.
Cults have plenty of things competing for those CPs/stratagems.
That 2cp strat yu used to get keller past a screen could have been used to get 20 hand flamers in range to shoot out of deep strike.
That 3CP strat that makes him shoot twice can be used to make 20 neophytes double tap.
The only thing that really can be repeated is the vect strat because it doesn't have the fAQ nerf that they put on the dark eldar's version of it (yet, we will see after the 2-week FAQ) because your opponent is unlikely to have any other stratagems they want to use in your movement phase.
But those hand flamer hybrids are 19 points each. 20 of them score 4.4 wounds on MEQ and 13 wounds on GEQ.
The relic KM kills 5 MEQ (or 10 total MEQ wounds) and 10 GEQ (or 20 GEQ wounds).
Why spend almost 400 points to do something that 60 points can do? Even if Hybrid points come down there is no comparison.
Eh...hehhehehehehehe....hahahahahaahahahahahahahahahaha....you haven't seen the rules GSC get for hand flamers....have you.
Yeah no those hand flamer hybrids are 8 points. And they score 8 wounds on MEQs and 23 GEQs.
GSC hand flamers (according to video reviews anyway, I don't think we have an image of that wargear page) are D6 S3 autohits. And they're 1pt.
He's not OK at 60, and you'll see earlier in the thread where I say I'd rather see him at 90 or 100 points. I think at 60 with D1 weapons he'd be a pointless never-include because he'd never successfully kill a character worth anywhere near his points value. He'd be the same as every other neutered to hell sniper/character assassin in the game who can never get past the huge wall of wounds and invuln saves 8th ed puts on every character all the way down to weenie 30 point company commanders. People just hate getting assassinated in practically every game that exists, so theyre used to models like that being utterly useless/only effective if you get absurdly lucky.
You can understand that a thing is problematically overcosted without going down the self-pity rabbit hole and believing that there's NEVER a situation where it's possible to use him badly/no way to counter him ever and all you can do is sit and sniffle in the corner over your dead space marine captain.
I'm as white knight as they come (or so I'm told), but I'm having a really hard time seeing this guy work out in his current setup - even with perfect play. I could have been ok if it weren't for the relic.
We all know 8th is hyper deadly. Lots of stuff is dead by turn 2/3. It gets really hard to cover all the angles. Zooming flyers are great, because they can exploit those holes and go after characters just like this guy will.
So he doesn't need to be on the table until then. What's 60 points tucked away? It's absolutely nothing - especially compared to the out-sized impact it can have. If I lost 10 cultists it wouldn't change the game for me that much. That's the level of investment this guy is.
He's not OK at 60, and you'll see earlier in the thread where I say I'd rather see him at 90 or 100 points. I think at 60 with D1 weapons he'd be a pointless never-include because he'd never successfully kill a character worth anywhere near his points value. He'd be the same as every other neutered to hell sniper/character assassin in the game who can never get past the huge wall of wounds and invuln saves 8th ed puts on every character all the way down to weenie 30 point company commanders. People just hate getting assassinated in practically every game that exists, so theyre used to models like that being utterly useless/only effective if you get absurdly lucky.
You can understand that a thing is problematically overcosted without going down the self-pity rabbit hole and believing that there's NEVER a situation where it's possible to use him badly/no way to counter him ever and all you can do is sit and sniffle in the corner over your dead space marine captain.
I'm as white knight as they come (or so I'm told), but I'm having a really hard time seeing this guy work out in his current setup - even with perfect play. I could have been ok if it weren't for the relic.
We all know 8th is hyper deadly. Lots of stuff is dead by turn 2/3. It gets really hard to cover all the angles. Zooming flyers are great, because they can exploit those holes and go after characters just like this guy will.
So he doesn't need to be on the table until then. What's 60 points tucked away? It's absolutely nothing - especially compared to the out-sized impact it can have. If I lost 10 cultists it wouldn't change the game for me that much. That's the level of investment this guy is.
I'd like such a handflamer on my raptors, or assult marines?
Heck i'd even take it on terminators.
Unless some stark revelation of some in codex rules or crazy limitation comes to light the community really needs to cast incredible shame onto the playtesters and GW. This is absurdly unacceptable.
SHUPPET wrote: he's not a strength morph. GSC of similar build can't handle bolters either. There's no real thematic explanation here other than "his revolvers are absurdly strong"
Not Online!!! wrote:
Problem is the fact that he can target charachters and doubles his firerate all by his own.
Other factions would have to pay cp for that.
He may have to lay points for that. Let's not whine about balance and him not costing enough before we've even seen the cost, thanks.
I doubt it, and even if, this dude is more effective then your average csm Lord at 74 ppm or commander at 30.
Against chaff aswell as charachters.
He literally is more effective then a flamer against infantry.
Edit: granted the flamers are gak atm so ehh.
Still this dude with some pistols is better then an dedicated shock and anti infantry weapon at it's Job.
I prolly should edit my comment there to state that all flamers suck except GSC handflamers.
And here we are, sitting in a 23 page thread about kellermorph.
Not the stratagem about the 20 acolytes that can drop down and use 5cp to get 2" away and shoot twice.
well hey boys at least we have an answer about what kills guardsmen in a points efficient way! That's a 225% points return against guardsmen!
Well, unfortunately that doesn't make the KM less broken. It just makes acolytes more. Shooting twice almost doesn't even matter with these. And they can vect vect...jesus...
These points have to be out of date. There is just no way. (I'm in the denial stage).
And here we are, sitting in a 23 page thread about kellermorph.
Not the stratagem about the 20 acolytes that can drop down and use 5cp to get 2" away and shoot twice.
well hey boys at least we have an answer about what kills guardsmen in a points efficient way! That's a 225% points return against guardsmen!
Well, unfortunately that doesn't make the KM less broken. It just makes acolytes more. Shooting twice almost doesn't even matter with these. And they can vect vect...jesus...
He, nothing stops you from running both you know? You really need some CP anyways so why not buy the kelermorph and some other HQ, which are all better then their comparison HQ charachters and some acolytes?
Automatically Appended Next Post: Aren't burna boyz flamers d3?
What also gets me...5 double shoot demo charges will absolutely cripple a 5++ knight. One of 20 flamers for turn 2. One with 15 flamers and 5 demos for turn 3. Two KMs. And that's like under 500 points.
Yeah 8 points for those hand flamer acolytes is indeed nuts. It'd be pretty good if they were in an army without those "deepstrike" special rules and open topped vehicles. When they have access to both it just makes almost every other flamer unit terrible in comparison. Of course, that's partly because most flamer units are just bad but man did these guys swing in the other direction.
I still think GSC are going to be pretty tricky to play but man do they have some units/tactics that are going to be anti-fun against a lot of players.
Edit: Burna boyz are indeed d3 shots but have ap-2 in CC. However thy only have 2 attacks so they're still not better than a single slugga&choppa boy in CC. And apparently that ap-2 and d3 flamer is worth 5 points, and not being troops. Burna boyz are plain awful
And here we are, sitting in a 23 page thread about kellermorph.
Not the stratagem about the 20 acolytes that can drop down and use 5cp to get 2" away and shoot twice.
well hey boys at least we have an answer about what kills guardsmen in a points efficient way! That's a 225% points return against guardsmen!
Well, unfortunately that doesn't make the KM less broken. It just makes acolytes more. Shooting twice almost doesn't even matter with these. And they can vect vect...jesus...
He, nothing stops you from running both you know?
You really need some CP anyways so why not buy the kelermorph and some other HQ, which are all better then their comparison HQ charachters and some acolytes?
Automatically Appended Next Post: Aren't burna boyz flamers d3?
Well, keller is not an HQ, and what's stopping you from using both is the fact that you can only use the stratagem to get them close enough to use the flamers on the drop on one squad. You can absolutely hold keller until turn 3 and use him then (after the screen has been deleted by your flamey bois) but at that point I feel like most targets will have been aberrant'd to death anyway. I suppose I'd use one keller just for the odd matchup where he's really good like Chaos Soup but I wouldn't invest relics/whatever into him. Not when I can use my relics to buff aberrants.
GSC in the new codex is just going to be an old-style deep strike alpha list like the on-release tzaangor alpha strike craziness that got us the current wait until turn 2 rules. Aberrants instead of tzaangors to clear chaff followed up by aberrants with tons of buffs filling the role of smashcaptain.
That's what aspect of this release is going to impact the meta. Not Keller, not the jackal alphus, not the psyker sniper guy. They're all sideshows to the deep strike leafblower BS that will make this codex cancer to play against until it gets nerfed into total uselessness again. And everyone who just wants to play dirty revolutionary hivescum will get the fun of another 6 months to a year of their army being utterly unplayable because of the competitive jackasses who ran out and ebayed 80 Deathwatch Overkill Acolytes when GSC first came out and who are probably now as we speak greenstuffing little cylinders on the bottom of all their autopistols to make them hand flamers.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Honestly the only realistic scenario I can come up with here is that the guy who wrote the rules for the hand flamer and the guy that wrote the points were different guys.
Like they shipped out the master of the codex, clapped their hands together and went
"wow steve, great codex!"
"Yeah, I sure am glad we gave such good QOL buffs to those underused options - with the new rules, a hand flamer will be a legitimate good upgrade to put on a few of your acolytes!"
"Yeah, and at the new points cost, a hand flamer will be a good squad upgrade to give your acolytes a little bit more....shooting...."
Automatically Appended Next Post: Where are you getting hand flamer hybrids are only 8 points?
Atm I'm seeing 19 points in BS (11 points for the Hybrid & 8 points for the HF).
And yes I'm aware that BS isn't perfect; just seems like a huge difference.
Well, keller is not an HQ, and what's stopping you from using both is the fact that you can only use the stratagem to get them close enough to use the flamers on the drop on one squad. You can absolutely hold keller until turn 3 and use him then (after the screen has been deleted by your flamey bois) but at that point I feel like most targets will have been aberrant'd to death anyway. I suppose I'd use one keller just for the odd matchup where he's really good like Chaos Soup but I wouldn't invest relics/whatever into him. Not when I can use my relics to buff aberrants.
GSC in the new codex is just going to be an old-style deep strike alpha list like the on-release tzaangor alpha strike craziness that got us the current wait until turn 2 rules. Aberrants instead of tzaangors to clear chaff followed up by aberrants with tons of buffs filling the role of smashcaptain.
That's what aspect of this release is going to impact the meta. Not Keller, not the jackal alphus, not the psyker sniper guy. They're all sideshows to the deep strike leafblower BS that will make this codex cancer to play against until it gets nerfed into total uselessness again. And everyone who just wants to play dirty revolutionary hivescum will get the fun of another 6 months to a year of their army being utterly unplayable because of the competitive jackasses who ran out and ebayed 80 Deathwatch Overkill Acolytes when GSC first came out and who are probably now as we speak greenstuffing little cylinders on the bottom of all their autopistols to make them hand flamers.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Honestly the only realistic scenario I can come up with here is that the guy who wrote the rules for the hand flamer and the guy that wrote the points were different guys.
Like they shipped out the master of the codex, clapped their hands together and went
"wow steve, great codex!"
"Yeah, I sure am glad we gave such good QOL buffs to those underused options - with the new rules, a hand flamer will be a legitimate good upgrade to put on a few of your acolytes!"
"Yeah, and at the new points cost, a hand flamer will be a good squad upgrade to give your acolytes a little bit more....shooting...."
"wait..."
"...Did we do both?"
Yea HQs are fairly trivial for GSC though - as well as battalion filling. I haven't read up on aberrants yet. I can't only handle so much stress in one day.
I am confident GW will fix this eventually, so people should NOT spend all their money on this army, but I'm really disappointed if this is as bad as it seems.
The only way this makes sense is if they're moving to fixed CP like AoS so pulling off 5 CP combo strats is possible without spending much until turn 3, but even then I'm not sure...
Automatically Appended Next Post: Where are you getting hand flamer hybrids are only 8 points?
Atm I'm seeing 19 points in BS (11 points for the Hybrid & 8 points for the HF).
And yes I'm aware that BS isn't perfect; just seems like a huge difference.
Here you go. Be ready to weep. I marked it at the proper time.
Actually, battalion filling isn't as easy for GSC as it is for most other cheap factions, since IIRC their cheapest HQ is the Primus at 73 (don't think he changed from index to codex) and with the one per detachment rule the second cheapest you have to take is the magus at 80. So their barebones HQs are more in the Marines range than the Guard range.
The abominant might be an HQ (dunno haven't used him) but I know he went up like 25pts in the codex so I think he's still more expensive than magus/primus. And the patriarch is at least over 100. All the new characters I believe are in elites, not HQ.
Well, the flamers are only 6", so actually getting all of them close enough should not be realistically possible.
Getting a single model within 12" though, is not that hard.
The keler is only held back by the fact the GSC codex seems to be just brimming with over-the-top choices so he seems tame by comparison-but in any other codex, he'd look crazy.
OK, with the points increase on the abominant the cheapest 2 HQs are the iconward at 56 and the Primus at 76, have to take 1 of each for a battalion and the cheapest troop is 5x acolytes at 35pts. So the cheapest GSC battalion is 234pts. Compare to guard at 180, admech at 165 and marines at 255.
Jackal and Magus I believe are both 80, abominant went up at least 20 so he's over 100, patriarch is 150.
5-man naked acos are pretty bad, too, compared to other min size troop fillers. Even if you're going Cult of Four-armed emperor (which you are) you only get in with them 35% of the time and they're basically ork boyz with guard defense who trade mob rule/ere we go/whatever the 4 attacks at 20 rule is for Cult Ambush.
1 squad of 20 with hand flamers burning CP is probably broken, min squads without upgrades making them significantly pricy I don't know about.
BoomWolf wrote: Well, the flamers are only 6", so actually getting all of them close enough should not be realistically possible.
Getting a single model within 12" though, is not that hard.
The keler is only held back by the fact the GSC codex seems to be just brimming with over-the-top choices so he seems tame by comparison-but in any other codex, he'd look crazy.
the_scotsman wrote: OK, with the points increase on the abominant the cheapest 2 HQs are the iconward at 56 and the Primus at 76, have to take 1 of each for a battalion and the cheapest troop is 5x acolytes at 35pts. So the cheapest GSC battalion is 234pts. Compare to guard at 180, admech at 165 and marines at 255.
Jackal and Magus I believe are both 80, abominant went up at least 20 so he's over 100, patriarch is 150.
If only there were smaller detachments that one could use as well as larger ones...
I really think that with the introduction of Specialist Detachments? We're going to start seeing some changes to make "All Battalion Spam All the Time" less interesting.
the_scotsman wrote: OK, with the points increase on the abominant the cheapest 2 HQs are the iconward at 56 and the Primus at 76, have to take 1 of each for a battalion and the cheapest troop is 5x acolytes at 35pts. So the cheapest GSC battalion is 234pts. Compare to guard at 180, admech at 165 and marines at 255.
Jackal and Magus I believe are both 80, abominant went up at least 20 so he's over 100, patriarch is 150.
If only there were smaller detachments that one could use as well as larger ones...
I really think that with the introduction of Specialist Detachments? We're going to start seeing some changes to make "All Battalion Spam All the Time" less interesting.
It is what it is right now. 99% of GSC lists are going to be brigade-based though in competitive play, but they're probably going to be most of the points in the army. I don't think it makes sense to "splash in" to GSC - your list is going to be primarily GSC with souped elements.
So, a Hybrid with a Hand Flamer goes from range 8" to 6" & from D3 to D6 shots...for 11 points cheaper???? amazing.
And I'm not weeping, since Genestealers have been corrupting me with their xenos wiles since 2nd edition. I bought 2 of the original Space Hulk Box sets and one of the re-releases ~10 years ago; though I didn't buy the newest version with the nice sculpts; 60+ Genestealers is quite enough I think.
Personally I'm praising the four-armed emperor. =)
So, a Hybrid with a Hand Flamer goes from range 8" to 6" & from D3 to D6 shots...for 11 points cheaper???? amazing.
And I'm not weeping, since Genestealers have been corrupting me with their xenos wiles since 2nd edition. I bought 2 of the original Space Hulk Box sets and one of the re-releases ~10 years ago; though I didn't buy the newest version with the nice sculpts; 60+ Genestealers is quite enough I think.
Personally I'm praising the four-armed emperor. =)
Yeah. TBH I think 1 point is about what the D3 shot version of the hand flamer is probably worth. Maybe a little cheap given the existence of the 2cp strat to get them in range, but for every other codex (maybe bar sisters because IIRC they have a similar strat) it could be worth 1pt. Maybe 2. Regular flamers would probably be worth it at 4.
At D6 shots 1pt vs 6pt for a regular flamer is laughable.
So, a Hybrid with a Hand Flamer goes from range 8" to 6" & from D3 to D6 shots...for 11 points cheaper???? amazing.
And I'm not weeping, since Genestealers have been corrupting me with their xenos wiles since 2nd edition. I bought 2 of the original Space Hulk Box sets and one of the re-releases ~10 years ago; though I didn't buy the newest version with the nice sculpts; 60+ Genestealers is quite enough I think.
Personally I'm praising the four-armed emperor. =)
Well, weeping tears of joy in any case.
And WTF - their chainfist is less points with no -1 to hit. Unreal.
Too bad Patriarchs and Genestealers don't get cult creeds, GSC armies going forward will likely be fielded without Genestealers ironically.
Also, Neophytes are pretty much gone considering you can get Brood Brother squads in your GSC detachment to fill troops and then give them orders from the Company Commander in your Spearhead detachment.
Too bad Patriarchs and Genestealers don't get cult creeds, GSC armies going forward will likely be fielded without Genestealers ironically.
Also, Neophytes are pretty much gone considering you can get Brood Brother squads in your GSC detachment to fill troops and then give them orders from the Company Commander in your Spearhead detachment.
Genestealers will likely feature in armies, but they will be Kraken Genestealers in a Tyranid detachment.
The genestealers are dead. Long live the Jeans Dealer!
Why do I feel like playing people with 20 acolytes all being count-as armed with hand flamers is going to be really common from here on in?
Other than the Kelermorph and acolyte skorchy bois how good is the rest of the army? Will they need these gimmicks to be viable? I haven't had time to look through an entire video review of the codex but it seems like they're still super dependent on the alpha strike and hope that they opponent isn't able to counter.
PiñaColada wrote: The genestealers are dead. Long live the Jeans Dealer!
Why do I feel like playing people with 20 acolytes all being count-as armed with hand flamers is going to be really common from here on in?
Other than the Kelermorph and acolyte skorchy bois how good is the rest of the army? Will they need these gimmicks to be viable? I haven't had time to look through an entire video review of the codex but it seems like they're still super dependent on the alpha strike and hope that they opponent isn't able to counter.
S-tier:
Scorchy Bois troops unit x1 (since they must use a stratagem and you probably don't want to hold 160pts until turn 3 and your chaff will be cleared by then)
Not-guardsmen in a GSC detachment ordered by an out-of-detachment company commander - does everything guardsmen currently do and guard are good.
Kellermorph
Aberrants buffed to hell and doing the smashcaptain schtick where they blow up super expensive knights'n'things. Probably using the Annointed Throng cookies from Vigilus and the Four Armed Emperor subfaction for super duper easy charges
Nexos CP regen with no need for a relic/wl trait
New super el cheapo elite/heavy/fast choices letting you run a brigade nearly as easily as guard
A-Tier (maybe in competitive lists IDK seems a bit iffy):
Mental onslaught soup combo
Order-able bullgryns
Acolytes with heavy weapons (maybe as good as aberrants, I'm kind of unconvinced, aberrants just seem to do their job but more focused/better)
Various democharge combos (possible to combine with scorchy bois?)
Psyker sniper fellow (why not just use a keller)
Genestealers/Patriarch (trogdor the burninator squad seems to invalidate the need for any chaffclearing besides them+guardsmen)
B-Tier (Probably Not tier):
Using any kind of shooty gunline combo with the alphus
Using Any kind of vehicle spam, despite improvements to the rockgrinder. GSC stuff still seems too flimsy to be terribly useful.
Bio-engineer doctor fellow (better ways to buff aberrants that don't hurt them exist)
Bikers (Might be better than a scout sentinel, but scout sentinels stop turn 1 deep strike shenanigans from boyz/genestealers)
C-Tier (Definitely Not Tier):
Metamorph. What is this supposed to be better at than anything else? The Bloodbrides of the GSC codex.
Neophytes. See above but for vastly superior brood bro guardsmen. Pay a point more for....not...getting..orders? Shittier weapon upgrades?
GSC will make Nid Soup (Nids+GSC+Guard) as potent a combo as Imp Soup/Eldar soup in the competitive meta. I would bet it will surpass chaos soup. I don't think it will surpass imp soup or eldar soup. The matchup vs imp soup is REALLY good, the matchup vs eldar soup is not nearly as good - Aberrants, Venoms, eldar psychic defense, Forewarned etc gak on GSC based lists really well.
So, a Hybrid with a Hand Flamer goes from range 8" to 6" & from D3 to D6 shots...for 11 points cheaper???? amazing.
And I'm not weeping, since Genestealers have been corrupting me with their xenos wiles since 2nd edition. I bought 2 of the original Space Hulk Box sets and one of the re-releases ~10 years ago; though I didn't buy the newest version with the nice sculpts; 60+ Genestealers is quite enough I think.
Personally I'm praising the four-armed emperor. =)
Well, weeping tears of joy in any case.
And WTF - their chainfist is less points with no -1 to hit. Unreal.
What models are carrying the Chainfist equivalents?
So, a Hybrid with a Hand Flamer goes from range 8" to 6" & from D3 to D6 shots...for 11 points cheaper???? amazing.
And I'm not weeping, since Genestealers have been corrupting me with their xenos wiles since 2nd edition. I bought 2 of the original Space Hulk Box sets and one of the re-releases ~10 years ago; though I didn't buy the newest version with the nice sculpts; 60+ Genestealers is quite enough I think.
Personally I'm praising the four-armed emperor. =)
Well, weeping tears of joy in any case.
And WTF - their chainfist is less points with no -1 to hit. Unreal.
What models are carrying the Chainfist equivalents?
You know, the little guardsman equivalent defense dudes.
So, a Hybrid with a Hand Flamer goes from range 8" to 6" & from D3 to D6 shots...for 11 points cheaper???? amazing.
And I'm not weeping, since Genestealers have been corrupting me with their xenos wiles since 2nd edition. I bought 2 of the original Space Hulk Box sets and one of the re-releases ~10 years ago; though I didn't buy the newest version with the nice sculpts; 60+ Genestealers is quite enough I think.
Personally I'm praising the four-armed emperor. =)
Well, weeping tears of joy in any case.
And WTF - their chainfist is less points with no -1 to hit. Unreal.
What models are carrying the Chainfist equivalents?
You know, the little guardsman equivalent defense dudes.
But shhhhhhh.
Shhhhhhh.
And yet not even Catachans ignore those penalties?
It seems like you're playing devils advocate for the sake of doing it at this point.
Can't readily deploy within 9" of the enemy. Only has short ranged pistols. Without forethought, he may struggle to get to any 'worth it' targets - especially against an opponent that knows to keep an eye out for him.
He's soft, squishy and fragile, so is going to take finesse to be effective against characters.
Me? I think he's an excellent objective sweeper. Let him open up, do some damage. Boost up other incoming firepower, and let something else claim the objective after an assault. And that is where I think he'll be the real threat. Characters? I'll use the Assassin and the Biker Chick. Nobble them from further away.
If he, and he can, casually wipes off a Infantry squad of guardsmen he has 2/3rds of his points back and now generates an aura for his fellows.
Huh, you know, I saw this, and thanks to the power of Binomial Probability we can actually find out the chance of that.
The chance of Kelly killing a guardsman is 5/6 (BS 2+) * 2/3 (Str4vsT3) * 5/6 (-1apvs5+sv), giving us a .4629 repeating chance
Plugging into Here, with a a number of tests equal to 12, successes 10
THe chance of getting 10 or more unsaved wounds is....
.001
A literal %1 chance to wipe a guardsman unit. And that's when we ignoring how gunslinger actually works (since the chance of generating the extra shot adds an additional 5/6 to the equation), the assuming the guardsmen are out of cover. I guess you are right through, he can wipe out an Infantry squad.
Can't readily deploy within 9" of the enemy. Only has short ranged pistols. Without forethought, he may struggle to get to any 'worth it' targets - especially against an opponent that knows to keep an eye out for him.
He's soft, squishy and fragile, so is going to take finesse to be effective against characters.
Me? I think he's an excellent objective sweeper. Let him open up, do some damage. Boost up other incoming firepower, and let something else claim the objective after an assault. And that is where I think he'll be the real threat. Characters? I'll use the Assassin and the Biker Chick. Nobble them from further away.
If he, and he can, casually wipes off a Infantry squad of guardsmen he has 2/3rds of his points back and now generates an aura for his fellows.
Huh, you know, I saw this, and thanks to the power of Binomial Probability we can actually find out the chance of that.
The chance of Kelly killing a guardsman is 5/6 (BS 2+) * 2/3 (Str4vsT3) * 5/6 (-1apvs5+sv), giving us a .4629 repeating chance
Plugging into Here, with a a number of tests equal to 12, successes 10
THe chance of getting 10 or more unsaved wounds is....
.001
A literal %1 chance to wipe a guardsman unit. And that's when we ignoring how gunslinger actually works (since the chance of generating the extra shot adds an additional 5/6 to the equation), the assuming the guardsmen are out of cover. I guess you are right through, he can wipe out an Infantry squad.
PiñaColada wrote: The genestealers are dead. Long live the Jeans Dealer!
Why do I feel like playing people with 20 acolytes all being count-as armed with hand flamers is going to be really common from here on in?
Other than the Kelermorph and acolyte skorchy bois how good is the rest of the army? Will they need these gimmicks to be viable? I haven't had time to look through an entire video review of the codex but it seems like they're still super dependent on the alpha strike and hope that they opponent isn't able to counter.
S-tier:
Scorchy Bois troops unit x1 (since they must use a stratagem and you probably don't want to hold 160pts until turn 3 and your chaff will be cleared by then)
Not-guardsmen in a GSC detachment ordered by an out-of-detachment company commander - does everything guardsmen currently do and guard are good.
Kellermorph
Aberrants buffed to hell and doing the smashcaptain schtick where they blow up super expensive knights'n'things. Probably using the Annointed Throng cookies from Vigilus and the Four Armed Emperor subfaction for super duper easy charges
Nexos CP regen with no need for a relic/wl trait
New super el cheapo elite/heavy/fast choices letting you run a brigade nearly as easily as guard
A-Tier (maybe in competitive lists IDK seems a bit iffy):
Mental onslaught soup combo
Order-able bullgryns
Acolytes with heavy weapons (maybe as good as aberrants, I'm kind of unconvinced, aberrants just seem to do their job but more focused/better)
Various democharge combos (possible to combine with scorchy bois?)
Psyker sniper fellow (why not just use a keller)
Genestealers/Patriarch (trogdor the burninator squad seems to invalidate the need for any chaffclearing besides them+guardsmen)
B-Tier (Probably Not tier):
Using any kind of shooty gunline combo with the alphus
Using Any kind of vehicle spam, despite improvements to the rockgrinder. GSC stuff still seems too flimsy to be terribly useful.
Bio-engineer doctor fellow (better ways to buff aberrants that don't hurt them exist)
Bikers (Might be better than a scout sentinel, but scout sentinels stop turn 1 deep strike shenanigans from boyz/genestealers)
C-Tier (Definitely Not Tier):
Metamorph. What is this supposed to be better at than anything else? The Bloodbrides of the GSC codex.
Neophytes. See above but for vastly superior brood bro guardsmen. Pay a point more for....not...getting..orders? Shittier weapon upgrades?
GSC will make Nid Soup (Nids+GSC+Guard) as potent a combo as Imp Soup/Eldar soup in the competitive meta. I would bet it will surpass chaos soup. I don't think it will surpass imp soup or eldar soup. The matchup vs imp soup is REALLY good, the matchup vs eldar soup is not nearly as good - Aberrants, Venoms, eldar psychic defense, Forewarned etc gak on GSC based lists really well.
I thought that Brood Brothers were barred from getting orders? Could have sworn a number of reviews said that....
Oh, you mean that thing everyone pretends doesn't exist when complaining about how OPIG infantry squads are? Yeah, I've heard of them. At the average, Kelly kills 5 guards man, which vs the sergeant's ld7 means you need to roll 7 on that d6 for morale. I think Nids have a -ld ability somewhere? So at the minimum you need 6 kills with a %40 chance (using an average of the normal shots and gunslinger shots for .42) and then need to roll 5 or 6 on the die another %33, with a grant toal off %13 chance. More likely, but still not as "casually" as you put it.
Scorchy Bois troops unit x1 (since they must use a stratagem and you probably don't want to hold 160pts until turn 3 and your chaff will be cleared by then)
Not-guardsmen in a GSC detachment ordered by an out-of-detachment company commander - does everything guardsmen currently do and guard are good.
Kellermorph
Aberrants buffed to hell and doing the smashcaptain schtick where they blow up super expensive knights'n'things. Probably using the Annointed Throng cookies from Vigilus and the Four Armed Emperor subfaction for super duper easy charges
Nexos CP regen with no need for a relic/wl trait
New super el cheapo elite/heavy/fast choices letting you run a brigade nearly as easily as guard
A-Tier (maybe in competitive lists IDK seems a bit iffy):
Mental onslaught soup combo
Order-able bullgryns
Acolytes with heavy weapons (maybe as good as aberrants, I'm kind of unconvinced, aberrants just seem to do their job but more focused/better)
Various democharge combos (possible to combine with scorchy bois?)
Psyker sniper fellow (why not just use a keller)
Genestealers/Patriarch (trogdor the burninator squad seems to invalidate the need for any chaffclearing besides them+guardsmen)
B-Tier (Probably Not tier):
Using any kind of shooty gunline combo with the alphus
Using Any kind of vehicle spam, despite improvements to the rockgrinder. GSC stuff still seems too flimsy to be terribly useful.
Bio-engineer doctor fellow (better ways to buff aberrants that don't hurt them exist)
Bikers (Might be better than a scout sentinel, but scout sentinels stop turn 1 deep strike shenanigans from boyz/genestealers)
C-Tier (Definitely Not Tier):
Metamorph. What is this supposed to be better at than anything else? The Bloodbrides of the GSC codex.
Neophytes. See above but for vastly superior brood bro guardsmen. Pay a point more for....not...getting..orders? Shittier weapon upgrades?
GSC will make Nid Soup (Nids+GSC+Guard) as potent a combo as Imp Soup/Eldar soup in the competitive meta. I would bet it will surpass chaos soup. I don't think it will surpass imp soup or eldar soup. The matchup vs imp soup is REALLY good, the matchup vs eldar soup is not nearly as good - Aberrants, Venoms, eldar psychic defense, Forewarned etc gak on GSC based lists really well.
How do you feel about Hive Guard vanguards for countering the Eldar soup? The min detachment (Neurothrope, 3x3 Impaler HG) is just over 520 points. I haven't had the change to play against the eldar soup, but 36" range + ignores line of sight + can hide behind walls + onslaught feels like it should do some damage to them, and still has a lot of utility against a wide range of matchups. Bumping it to a battalion is another ~180 points, so...options.
GSC pairs incredibly well with Hive Guard. Before the codex i've faced it and it was very difficult for me. But Hive Guard are a great unit, one of the best in the codex.
THe chance of getting 10 or more unsaved wounds is....
.001
A literal %1 chance to wipe a guardsman unit. And that's when we ignoring how gunslinger actually works (since the chance of generating the extra shot adds an additional 5/6 to the equation), the assuming the guardsmen are out of cover. I guess you are right through, he can wipe out an Infantry squad.
He just needs to kill 8 to guarantee a failed morale test to wipe the squad, otherwise the guard player will have to spend 2CP to save it.
Ignoring how lame of a mechanic and how unimportant morale is, did you do the math for other units? Cultists for example are far less durable and more expensive at the same time.
THe chance of getting 10 or more unsaved wounds is....
.001
A literal %1 chance to wipe a guardsman unit. And that's when we ignoring how gunslinger actually works (since the chance of generating the extra shot adds an additional 5/6 to the equation), the assuming the guardsmen are out of cover. I guess you are right through, he can wipe out an Infantry squad.
He just needs to kill 8 to guarantee a failed morale test to wipe the squad, otherwise the guard player will have to spend 2CP to save it.
Still an 8% chance. Besides the point, we're still talking about wiping a unit out that costs less than the Kelly, there's not really a point spending the CP to save it even if he does kill most of the unit. Good luck does not equate to overpowered.
Slayer-Fan123 wrote:Ignoring how lame of a mechanic and how unimportant morale is, did you do the math for other units? Cultists for example are far less durable and more expensive at the same time
I didn't feel the need to, since the subject was on Infantry as the specific example. Anything tougher than that? He's not going to suddenly be better at killing. Cultist and Grots? Can be taken in larger than 10, so can't be wiped short of spending a bunch of CP on one model. And all the math I did was without considering cover. So at the end of the day, I'm not sure what comparing other units would do, other than feed into the usual point efficiency nonsense.
THe chance of getting 10 or more unsaved wounds is....
.001
A literal %1 chance to wipe a guardsman unit. And that's when we ignoring how gunslinger actually works (since the chance of generating the extra shot adds an additional 5/6 to the equation), the assuming the guardsmen are out of cover. I guess you are right through, he can wipe out an Infantry squad.
He just needs to kill 8 to guarantee a failed morale test to wipe the squad, otherwise the guard player will have to spend 2CP to save it.
Still an 8% chance. Besides the point, we're still talking about wiping a unit out that costs less than the Kelly, there's not really a point spending the CP to save it even if he does kill most of the unit. Good luck does not equate to overpowered.
Slayer-Fan123 wrote:Ignoring how lame of a mechanic and how unimportant morale is, did you do the math for other units? Cultists for example are far less durable and more expensive at the same time
I didn't feel the need to, since the subject was on Infantry as the specific example. Anything tougher than that? He's not going to suddenly be better at killing. Cultist and Grots? Can be taken in larger than 10, so can't be wiped short of spending a bunch of CP on one model. And all the math I did was without considering cover. So at the end of the day, I'm not sure what comparing other units would do, other than feed into the usual point efficiency nonsense.
You can't just ignore doing the math for those units because they MIGHT be in squads larger than 10. Same thing for things like Skitarii units or Ork Boyz (where you'd be more looking for straight casualties anyway, which someone showed they get a nice amount dead). Then you have Intercessors and Deathwatch Vets and Dire Avengers and even Custodes (where he wounds the regular dudes AND the bikes at the same rate).
There's a lot to unpack from his stats and abilities.
THe chance of getting 10 or more unsaved wounds is....
.001
A literal %1 chance to wipe a guardsman unit. And that's when we ignoring how gunslinger actually works (since the chance of generating the extra shot adds an additional 5/6 to the equation), the assuming the guardsmen are out of cover. I guess you are right through, he can wipe out an Infantry squad.
He just needs to kill 8 to guarantee a failed morale test to wipe the squad, otherwise the guard player will have to spend 2CP to save it.
Still an 8% chance. Besides the point, we're still talking about wiping a unit out that costs less than the Kelly, there's not really a point spending the CP to save it even if he does kill most of the unit. Good luck does not equate to overpowered.
Slayer-Fan123 wrote:Ignoring how lame of a mechanic and how unimportant morale is, did you do the math for other units? Cultists for example are far less durable and more expensive at the same time
I didn't feel the need to, since the subject was on Infantry as the specific example. Anything tougher than that? He's not going to suddenly be better at killing. Cultist and Grots? Can be taken in larger than 10, so can't be wiped short of spending a bunch of CP on one model. And all the math I did was without considering cover. So at the end of the day, I'm not sure what comparing other units would do, other than feed into the usual point efficiency nonsense.
You can't just ignore doing the math for those units because they MIGHT be in squads larger than 10. Same thing for things like Skitarii units or Ork Boyz (where you'd be more looking for straight casualties anyway, which someone showed they get a nice amount dead). Then you have Intercessors and Deathwatch Vets and Dire Avengers and even Custodes (where he wounds the regular dudes AND the bikes at the same rate).
There's a lot to unpack from his stats and abilities.
You mean, with 6 shots, around 9-10 hits, slightly over 3 wounds and ONE failed save that doesn't even kill a guy?
Those Custodes?
The ones where he has a decent chance of doing nothing if they happen to be in cover?
To everyone panicking about the flamer acolytes, the strat to get them 3” away prevents them charging. So yes, it is really powerful, but once you pop off (twice for another 3cp, for 5 total), you’ve effectively got 20 overpriced guardsmen sitting out of cover waiting for a stiff breeze to blow them over. Add in the opportunity cost of not being able to use either the 3” deep strike or the shoot twice strat on the Keller at the same time.
Also, the gsc handflamers are the same stat line as every other faction got in CA18 (they should be 2-3 points though)
Good to see people freaking out about combos before the codex is out. Yes I'm aware there are full reviews of every single page and such, but I'm not about to believe a tier list this early in the game. Theres also the 2 week faq to consider which may change things and may not. Who knows! Nobody.
drbored wrote: Good to see people freaking out about combos before the codex is out. Yes I'm aware there are full reviews of every single page and such, but I'm not about to believe a tier list this early in the game. Theres also the 2 week faq to consider which may change things and may not. Who knows! Nobody.
They have a Vect equivalent stratagem, incredibly efficient units and can soup with Guard or Nids. Of course they're going to be top tier.
THe chance of getting 10 or more unsaved wounds is....
.001
A literal %1 chance to wipe a guardsman unit. And that's when we ignoring how gunslinger actually works (since the chance of generating the extra shot adds an additional 5/6 to the equation), the assuming the guardsmen are out of cover. I guess you are right through, he can wipe out an Infantry squad.
He just needs to kill 8 to guarantee a failed morale test to wipe the squad, otherwise the guard player will have to spend 2CP to save it.
Still an 8% chance. Besides the point, we're still talking about wiping a unit out that costs less than the Kelly, there's not really a point spending the CP to save it even if he does kill most of the unit. Good luck does not equate to overpowered.
Slayer-Fan123 wrote:Ignoring how lame of a mechanic and how unimportant morale is, did you do the math for other units? Cultists for example are far less durable and more expensive at the same time
I didn't feel the need to, since the subject was on Infantry as the specific example. Anything tougher than that? He's not going to suddenly be better at killing. Cultist and Grots? Can be taken in larger than 10, so can't be wiped short of spending a bunch of CP on one model. And all the math I did was without considering cover. So at the end of the day, I'm not sure what comparing other units would do, other than feed into the usual point efficiency nonsense.
You can't just ignore doing the math for those units because they MIGHT be in squads larger than 10. Same thing for things like Skitarii units or Ork Boyz (where you'd be more looking for straight casualties anyway, which someone showed they get a nice amount dead). Then you have Intercessors and Deathwatch Vets and Dire Avengers and even Custodes (where he wounds the regular dudes AND the bikes at the same rate).
There's a lot to unpack from his stats and abilities.
He does wound custodes at the same rate as custode bikes. That rate is "2 wounds on average, assuming they are not in cover".
Automatically Appended Next Post: Also...does he make his points back vs intercessors? By my math he kills 2 out of cover, not quite 2 in cover, aren't they only 17ppm at this point for regular marines?
Or are we looking at this still in the lens of "he drops in, uses Vect to avoid getting blown away by servo-skull, then uses the 3CP shoot twice stratagem because nobody else was going to use that, and if you burn 6CP THEN he makes his points back vs intercessors OPOPOP"?
The only primaris marines he makes his points back against with one round of shooting are characters and Hellblasters, at least by the points I'm seeing from battlescribe. I guess it's a coinflip with the aggressors because he kills 1.47 on average, so if that's 2 then he does make his points, if it's 1 he makes 50% of his points.
in general unless you're a character without a storm shield he doesn't seem that great at going after marines, probably because of the whole S4 thing. When something like a Ravager shooting marines gets a 50% points return that's so killer because it's doing it from a really durable chassis at 36" range. A guy who's got to be up there licking your nostril with T3 5++ had better be recouping his points quick because odds are real good he's a suicide bomb, and you already used 3CP on a vect for the privilege of using him anyway.
I was inspired by another post (Someone rewrote green eggs and ham along the same vain as this) and I had to share.
To the "Spider-man" theme song:
Three armed man three armed man
Shoots whatever his pistols can
from a blip what a suprize
shoots your warlord and he dies
Look out here comes the three armed man
Is he fast listen bud
He's got crazy genestealer blood
Can he hide that's his bread
Sir look out "Bang" your dead
Hay there! There goes the three armed man
In the heat of the night at the scene of a war
Draws his guns fast as light
Heads blow up see the gore
Three armed man Three armed man
Revolutionary three armed man
By the empire he'd deplored
Killing them, is his reward
Look out!! there goes the three armed mannnnn!!
C4790M wrote: To everyone panicking about the flamer acolytes, the strat to get them 3” away prevents them charging. So yes, it is really powerful, but once you pop off (twice for another 3cp, for 5 total), you’ve effectively got 20 overpriced guardsmen sitting out of cover waiting for a stiff breeze to blow them over. Add in the opportunity cost of not being able to use either the 3” deep strike or the shoot twice strat on the Keller at the same time.
Also, the gsc handflamers are the same stat line as every other faction got in CA18 (they should be 2-3 points though)
If their hand flamer was 3 points then they'd be normal priced, in my opinion. Otherwise you're killing Ork Boyz with super cheap hand flamers that almost always get their points back and need to be killed to the man, because of fearless.
T3 5+ is not broadly different from T4 6+ except in edge cases.
C4790M wrote: To everyone panicking about the flamer acolytes, the strat to get them 3” away prevents them charging. So yes, it is really powerful, but once you pop off (twice for another 3cp, for 5 total), you’ve effectively got 20 overpriced guardsmen sitting out of cover waiting for a stiff breeze to blow them over. Add in the opportunity cost of not being able to use either the 3” deep strike or the shoot twice strat on the Keller at the same time.
Also, the gsc handflamers are the same stat line as every other faction got in CA18 (they should be 2-3 points though)
If their hand flamer was 3 points then they'd be normal priced, in my opinion. Otherwise you're killing Ork Boyz with super cheap hand flamers that almost always get their points back and need to be killed to the man, because of fearless.
T3 5+ is not broadly different from T4 6+ except in edge cases.
Why are acolytes always fearless now? Are we giving them a 120-point buffing HQ just for that? Because I was under the impression they actually had no special morale rules unless you gave them that particular, one-per-detachment, buff HQ that costs 2/3 as much as the whole squad of hand flamer guys.
Yep, they make their points back if they drop in on unprotected ork boyz and spend 2CP. Genestealer Cults can spend 2cp to be 75% as effective at chaff clearing as guard infantry are with orders. Then that ork army can charge a unit of ork boyz from 7" away, with a...let's see... 91% chance to get in if they don't have Evil Sunz, and they can kill that squad of acolytes in melee with exactly the same amount of resources spent except 0CP.
Another fun fact: If you didn't take those acolytes with hand flamers and they just deep struck in, shot and charged those ork boyz, they would do more damage than with the hand flamers (21.7 dead orks vs 19.4 with the flamers).
drbored wrote: Good to see people freaking out about combos before the codex is out. Yes I'm aware there are full reviews of every single page and such, but I'm not about to believe a tier list this early in the game. Theres also the 2 week faq to consider which may change things and may not. Who knows! Nobody.
They have a Vect equivalent stratagem, incredibly efficient units and can soup with Guard or Nids. Of course they're going to be top tier.
They're also glass cannons, and as such are going to be difficult to pilot. The average 40k player is very, very bad at the game. A cursory look around dakka is evidence of this enough.
GSC Won't be taking the game by storm. Smart players who use GSC will be, but that's true with almost any army.
Why are acolytes always fearless now? Are we giving them a 120-point buffing HQ just for that? Because I was under the impression they actually had no special morale rules unless you gave them that particular, one-per-detachment, buff HQ that costs 2/3 as much as the whole squad of hand flamer guys.
Yep, they make their points back if they drop in on unprotected ork boyz and spend 2CP. Genestealer Cults can spend 2cp to be 75% as effective at chaff clearing as guard infantry are with orders. Then that ork army can charge a unit of ork boyz from 7" away, with a...let's see... 91% chance to get in if they don't have Evil Sunz, and they can kill that squad of acolytes in melee with exactly the same amount of resources spent except 0CP.
Another fun fact: If you didn't take those acolytes with hand flamers and they just deep struck in, shot and charged those ork boyz, they would do more damage than with the hand flamers (21.7 dead orks vs 19.4 with the flamers).
I find it a reasonable expectation that people will have patriarchs, who are no slouch in the movement phase or in melee and also casts a spell - basically a daemon prince, but cheaper and there are lots of those.
How did those Boyz get to within 7" exactly? Because if you're not jumping or deepstriking then GSC have the advantage to move markers in response to their first turn movements and clear out of the way and then respond in the best approach possible.
Another fun fact: If you didn't take those acolytes with hand flamers and they just deep struck in, shot and charged those ork boyz, they would do more damage than with the hand flamers (21.7 dead orks vs 19.4 with the flamers).
Yes, they sure can. Another fun fact - I only have to pay a single point per model to be able to have units that do both, because I have another stratagem that gets me D6" closer with a +1 or +2 to charge and also disrupt melee armies from wanting to charge me when i'm that close (think Daemons).
Why are acolytes always fearless now? Are we giving them a 120-point buffing HQ just for that? Because I was under the impression they actually had no special morale rules unless you gave them that particular, one-per-detachment, buff HQ that costs 2/3 as much as the whole squad of hand flamer guys.
Yep, they make their points back if they drop in on unprotected ork boyz and spend 2CP. Genestealer Cults can spend 2cp to be 75% as effective at chaff clearing as guard infantry are with orders. Then that ork army can charge a unit of ork boyz from 7" away, with a...let's see... 91% chance to get in if they don't have Evil Sunz, and they can kill that squad of acolytes in melee with exactly the same amount of resources spent except 0CP.
Another fun fact: If you didn't take those acolytes with hand flamers and they just deep struck in, shot and charged those ork boyz, they would do more damage than with the hand flamers (21.7 dead orks vs 19.4 with the flamers).
I find it a reasonable expectation that people will have patriarchs, who are no slouch in the movement phase or in melee and also casts a spell - basically a daemon prince, but cheaper and there are lots of those.
How did those Boyz get to within 7" exactly? Because if you're not jumping or deepstriking then GSC have the advantage to move markers in response to their first turn movements and clear out of the way and then respond in the best approach possible.
Another fun fact: If you didn't take those acolytes with hand flamers and they just deep struck in, shot and charged those ork boyz, they would do more damage than with the hand flamers (21.7 dead orks vs 19.4 with the flamers).
Yes, they sure can. Another fun fact - I only have to pay a single point per model to be able to have units that do both, because I have another stratagem that gets me D6" closer with a +1 or +2 to charge and also disrupt melee armies from wanting to charge me when i'm that close (think Daemons).
How did...
Where was this other unit of 20 ork boyz the acolytes with 6" range hand flamers killed? The moon?
I'm going to assume if you're using a 6" range weapon on me you are REASONABLY CLOSE TO MY ARMY.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Also, if your acolytes are fearless, then my ork boyz are 5++/6+++. You get 120 points of buffers, I get 120 points of buffers. So we're trading 20 acolytes for 13 ork boyz now.
Where was this other unit of 20 ork boyz the acolytes with 6" range hand flamers killed? The moon?
I'm going to assume if you're using a 6" range weapon on me you are REASONABLY CLOSE TO MY ARMY.
Well, then I'm getting first strike. I imagine those Boyz will be under KFF they 'll keep half their unit, but if you have to back up to avoid being murdalated by overwatch then you might not get the distance to snag both units effectively especially depending on terrain and such.
drbored wrote: Good to see people freaking out about combos before the codex is out. Yes I'm aware there are full reviews of every single page and such, but I'm not about to believe a tier list this early in the game. Theres also the 2 week faq to consider which may change things and may not. Who knows! Nobody.
They have a Vect equivalent stratagem, incredibly efficient units and can soup with Guard or Nids. Of course they're going to be top tier.
They're also glass cannons, and as such are going to be difficult to pilot. The average 40k player is very, very bad at the game. A cursory look around dakka is evidence of this enough.
GSC Won't be taking the game by storm. Smart players who use GSC will be, but that's true with almost any army.
You don't even need to look around dakka. This thread here pretty much embodies it. The gsc whining has been linked to and meme'd all over discord and facebook, I even saw a reddit chain mocking dakka for this one. I'm interested to see if next weeks podcasts start memeing it too.
I don't think some people realise how far their badness actually reaches. Dakka is used to being an echo chamber for CAAC/Ork players, that doesn't mean this stuff doesn't make it elsewhere lol
Where was this other unit of 20 ork boyz the acolytes with 6" range hand flamers killed? The moon?
I'm going to assume if you're using a 6" range weapon on me you are REASONABLY CLOSE TO MY ARMY.
Well, then I'm getting first strike. I imagine those Boyz will be under KFF they 'll keep half their unit, but if you have to back up to avoid being murdalated by overwatch then you might not get the distance to snag both units effectively especially depending on terrain and such.
Aha, if you receive first strike then we must be playing a new Chapter Approved mission! And if we're playing a new Chapter Approved mission, there is a 1/6 chance that it is the airborne supplies mission, and none of the units in GSC have fly, while the rest of the 1800 points in my ork lists are made up of only stormboyz and deffcoptas!
Check
and
Mate, Atheists.
Daed, I am speaking as someone who usually sees you as a voice of relative sanity on these forums.
You remember all those times you've thought to yourself "wow, this argument *usual suspect crazy whiner poster* is making is really disconnected from reality, and relies on a lot of assumed and not very honestly put forward factors to hold water. It's really annoying that they're doing this."
You've been acting like that practically this entire thread. You've decided for some reason that this codex is your windmill to tilt at, and you've used practically every dishonest tactic that I know you've called out and gotten annoyed by in the past when other posters are trying to say something is broken/OP/whatever and want to warp the data to back that assertion up. These ridiculous counterexamples are not intended to be "realistic situations" they're attempts to get you to see what you've been doing.
Stop embarrassing yourself. Wait until the codex comes out and see if these combos are really as difficult to play against as you are making them out to be.
You remember all those times you've thought to yourself "wow, this argument *usual suspect crazy whiner poster* is making is really disconnected from reality, and relies on a lot of assumed and not very honestly put forward factors to hold water. It's really annoying that they're doing this."
You've been acting like that practically this entire thread. You've decided for some reason that this codex is your windmill to tilt at, and you've used practically every dishonest tactic that I know you've called out and gotten annoyed by in the past when other posters are trying to say something is broken/OP/whatever and want to warp the data to back that assertion up. These ridiculous counterexamples are not intended to be "realistic situations" they're attempts to get you to see what you've been doing.
Stop embarrassing yourself. Wait until the codex comes out and see if these combos are really as difficult to play against as you are making them out to be.
I can appreciate and understand that. I really do. I respect everyone's opinion here.
I've stepped back from my crazy boycott position - that was foolish to say. I don't think I've made any dishonest statements. I've seen strawmen that I know would bug me from the "other side".
It's impossible to say how *all* of a game will play out, but there are so many facets to this game and GSC kind of ignores a lot. Like in the above example - I'd be more than likely to toss Psychic Stimulus on the closest unit so that even if you did charge I get to strike first. It's brutal to ponder if a DE flyer comes anywhere 24" of a caster they can simply be removed from the table.
I'm totally happy to be wrong on this even if it makes me a pariah.
You remember all those times you've thought to yourself "wow, this argument *usual suspect crazy whiner poster* is making is really disconnected from reality, and relies on a lot of assumed and not very honestly put forward factors to hold water. It's really annoying that they're doing this."
You've been acting like that practically this entire thread. You've decided for some reason that this codex is your windmill to tilt at, and you've used practically every dishonest tactic that I know you've called out and gotten annoyed by in the past when other posters are trying to say something is broken/OP/whatever and want to warp the data to back that assertion up. These ridiculous counterexamples are not intended to be "realistic situations" they're attempts to get you to see what you've been doing.
Stop embarrassing yourself. Wait until the codex comes out and see if these combos are really as difficult to play against as you are making them out to be.
I can appreciate and understand that. I really do. I respect everyone's opinion here.
I've stepped back from my crazy boycott position - that was foolish to say. I don't think I've made any dishonest statements. I've seen strawmen that I know would bug me from the "other side".
It's impossible to say how *all* of a game will play out, but there are so many facets to this game and GSC kind of ignores a lot. Like in the above example - I'd be more than likely to toss Psychic Stimulus on the closest unit so that even if you did charge I get to strike first. It's brutal to ponder if a DE flyer comes anywhere 24" of a caster they can simply be removed from the table.
I'm totally happy to be wrong on this even if it makes me a pariah.
I guess from the other side, I can see it this way:
If I am playing a genestealer cult army and my opponent has a competitive DE list with 3 flyers, 3 ravagers, and a swarm of venoms, I am going to have a hell of a time removing any kind of significant amount of stuff with my melee deep strike focused army. He can use those flyers to screen a huge amount of his line from deep strikers and the weight of firepower he can bring to bear will tear through my army that most likely consists of about the average number of GEQ wounds that an imperial soup list brings just for their screening purposes...minus the knight that they typically bring along.
Mental onslaught is an extremely powerful psychic power. No argument there. In its current form it is on par with Doom, and if it gets through a 2-week FAQ without being reduced in power (to non-vehicle models, or to use base unmodified LD values) then it is undoubtedly the best offensive power in the game followed by Mind War and then probably Executioner.
That doesn't make this not very likely a losing matchup anyway.
And as for psychic stimulus, that power exists in the game currently, is pretty worthless and is likely to remain pretty worthless for the same reason that an ability like that is only useful if your whole army has it: Your opponent gets to select the first unit. It changes nothing if I charge those acolytes with a single unit of boyz and then select those boyz to go first.
Hypotheticals only take you so far, and at the end of the day there is no way to get around the fact that there are many cases where a 160 point unit can spend 2CP and put out very similar damage output to hand flamer acolytes, if not better, safer or cheaper. 160 points gets you 4 FRFSRF infantry squads, or 8 SS/SB storm bolter vets deep striking, or 20 tzaangors fighting twice. A big unit burning 2CP gets you a ton of examples where you can go "oh god look they can pay for themselves instantly how OP!" because CP are designed to maximise a unit's impact like that.
drbored wrote: Good to see people freaking out about combos before the codex is out. Yes I'm aware there are full reviews of every single page and such, but I'm not about to believe a tier list this early in the game. Theres also the 2 week faq to consider which may change things and may not. Who knows! Nobody.
They have a Vect equivalent stratagem, incredibly efficient units and can soup with Guard or Nids. Of course they're going to be top tier.
They're also glass cannons, and as such are going to be difficult to pilot. The average 40k player is very, very bad at the game. A cursory look around dakka is evidence of this enough.
GSC Won't be taking the game by storm. Smart players who use GSC will be, but that's true with almost any army.
Yes those Aberrants seem extremely fragile. Not to mention we know how tanky the Kabal of the Black Heart's units are but they seem to manage....
I'll look forward to revisiting this thread once GSC have been out in the wild and tournaments start reflecting the evolved meta. It'll be interesting to see how many of you that have literally called people 'noobs', 'CAAC' or any other insult apologise should you be proven wrong.
You remember all those times you've thought to yourself "wow, this argument *usual suspect crazy whiner poster* is making is really disconnected from reality, and relies on a lot of assumed and not very honestly put forward factors to hold water. It's really annoying that they're doing this."
You've been acting like that practically this entire thread. You've decided for some reason that this codex is your windmill to tilt at, and you've used practically every dishonest tactic that I know you've called out and gotten annoyed by in the past when other posters are trying to say something is broken/OP/whatever and want to warp the data to back that assertion up. These ridiculous counterexamples are not intended to be "realistic situations" they're attempts to get you to see what you've been doing.
Stop embarrassing yourself. Wait until the codex comes out and see if these combos are really as difficult to play against as you are making them out to be.
I can appreciate and understand that. I really do. I respect everyone's opinion here.
I've stepped back from my crazy boycott position - that was foolish to say. I don't think I've made any dishonest statements. I've seen strawmen that I know would bug me from the "other side".
It's impossible to say how *all* of a game will play out, but there are so many facets to this game and GSC kind of ignores a lot. Like in the above example - I'd be more than likely to toss Psychic Stimulus on the closest unit so that even if you did charge I get to strike first. It's brutal to ponder if a DE flyer comes anywhere 24" of a caster they can simply be removed from the table.
I'm totally happy to be wrong on this even if it makes me a pariah.
You asked me in the other thread if I'd ever before seen you act the way it was being claimed you were - I too freely admitted no I hadn't , but that you shouldnt feel it means nothing you do can ever be like that. I agree with scotsman. You're a better caliber of poster than the people joining in on this frothfest this week. But that should be why you should be able to have the self awareness to recognise yourself being guilty of the same things you've recognised in others before, and maybe take a step back and critically analyse your own statements with the same dilligence that you would others, because you may have gotten a little swept away here.
An Actual Englishman wrote: I'll look forward to revisiting this thread once GSC have been out in the wild and tournaments start reflecting the evolved meta. It'll be interesting to see how many of you that have literally called people 'noobs', 'CAAC' or any other insult apologise should you be proven wrong.
Well, I have to play against them a lot (probably more than any other faction really), so I'll be curious as well. I've already been playing against Anointed Throng Aberrants/Abominant quite a bit and they are nasty, but not overpowering. GSC psychic powers already annoyed me, so I tend to be prepared for their BS, but playing Chaos I probably have a few more options against psykers than a lot of armies. Killing the Magus with Daemonic Possession is very satisfying.
drbored wrote: Good to see people freaking out about combos before the codex is out. Yes I'm aware there are full reviews of every single page and such, but I'm not about to believe a tier list this early in the game. Theres also the 2 week faq to consider which may change things and may not. Who knows! Nobody.
They have a Vect equivalent stratagem, incredibly efficient units and can soup with Guard or Nids. Of course they're going to be top tier.
They're also glass cannons, and as such are going to be difficult to pilot. The average 40k player is very, very bad at the game. A cursory look around dakka is evidence of this enough.
GSC Won't be taking the game by storm. Smart players who use GSC will be, but that's true with almost any army.
Yes those Aberrants seem extremely fragile. Not to mention we know how tanky the Kabal of the Black Heart's units are but they seem to manage....
I'll look forward to revisiting this thread once GSC have been out in the wild and tournaments start reflecting the evolved meta. It'll be interesting to see how many of you that have literally called people 'noobs', 'CAAC' or any other insult apologise should you be proven wrong.
I get you're being sarcastic here, but a model that costs the same as a Grotesque/Spawn but has half the number of wounds doesn't strike you as a bit of a glass cannon?
The best thing about Grotesques is that they spike hard in defenses vs high quality firepower, and the models LOOK like the kind of thing you want to shoot a plasma gun at. They're a reverse distraction carnifex. T4, W2, 5++ for 27ppm minimum is an incredibly efficient target to shoot with lasguns/boltguns.
Thanks guys - I appreciate the tough love. I'm still muddling through this.
Hypotheticals only take you so far, and at the end of the day there is no way to get around the fact that there are many cases where a 160 point unit can spend 2CP and put out very similar damage output to hand flamer acolytes, if not better, safer or cheaper. 160 points gets you 4 FRFSRF infantry squads, or 8 SS/SB storm bolter vets deep striking, or 20 tzaangors fighting twice. A big unit burning 2CP gets you a ton of examples where you can go "oh god look they can pay for themselves instantly how OP!" because CP are designed to maximise a unit's impact like that.
Kinda sort of? It would be 220 for those IS to have company commanders, which is only 72 shots and 36 hits of the same "caliber". That's a fairly wide gap even if I would need to spend 2 CP. IS have double the wounds, so it's not without upsides, but then they have to keep commanders safe from KM, which means bodyguards and more cost. But that means i'm not getting a flamer bomb within 3" that turn.
It's really a very complex interaction.
8 SS/SBs with -2 (if they're within 9") is 32 * .666 * .666 = 14 GEQ. The flamer bomb is 23 GEQ. The Deathwatch will surely be more useful overall, though.
20 Tzaangors on double swing is probably something that stands up mathematically, but comes with a greater chance of absolute failure and up to twice the CP spend (deepstrike and reroll) for an army where it's a bit harder to squeeze in CP.
I'm certain other units can achieve spectacular results on paper, but can they do it with so little support and as cheaply and reliably as GSC? I'm not sure and that's where my distress lies.
drbored wrote: Good to see people freaking out about combos before the codex is out. Yes I'm aware there are full reviews of every single page and such, but I'm not about to believe a tier list this early in the game. Theres also the 2 week faq to consider which may change things and may not. Who knows! Nobody.
They have a Vect equivalent stratagem, incredibly efficient units and can soup with Guard or Nids. Of course they're going to be top tier.
They're also glass cannons, and as such are going to be difficult to pilot. The average 40k player is very, very bad at the game. A cursory look around dakka is evidence of this enough.
GSC Won't be taking the game by storm. Smart players who use GSC will be, but that's true with almost any army.
Yes those Aberrants seem extremely fragile. Not to mention we know how tanky the Kabal of the Black Heart's units are but they seem to manage....
I'll look forward to revisiting this thread once GSC have been out in the wild and tournaments start reflecting the evolved meta. It'll be interesting to see how many of you that have literally called people 'noobs', 'CAAC' or any other insult apologise should you be proven wrong.
I get you're being sarcastic here, but a model that costs the same as a Grotesque/Spawn but has half the number of wounds doesn't strike you as a bit of a glass cannon?
The best thing about Grotesques is that they spike hard in defenses vs high quality firepower, and the models LOOK like the kind of thing you want to shoot a plasma gun at. They're a reverse distraction carnifex. T4, W2, 5++ for 27ppm minimum is an incredibly efficient target to shoot with lasguns/boltguns.
No, I don't think they're fragile for their cost. I think they're a steal considering their damage output.
They have a 5+++ and damage reduction on multi damage weapons (which are the bane of multi wound models). Their T can be increased to 5, their 5+++ can become a 4+++.
Daedalus81 wrote: Thanks guys - I appreciate the tough love. I'm still muddling through this.
Hypotheticals only take you so far, and at the end of the day there is no way to get around the fact that there are many cases where a 160 point unit can spend 2CP and put out very similar damage output to hand flamer acolytes, if not better, safer or cheaper. 160 points gets you 4 FRFSRF infantry squads, or 8 SS/SB storm bolter vets deep striking, or 20 tzaangors fighting twice. A big unit burning 2CP gets you a ton of examples where you can go "oh god look they can pay for themselves instantly how OP!" because CP are designed to maximise a unit's impact like that.
Kinda sort of? It would be 220 for those IS to have company commanders, which is only 72 shots and 36 hits of the same "caliber". That's a fairly wide gap even if I would need to spend 2 CP. IS have double the wounds, so it's not without upsides, but then they have to keep commanders safe from KM, which means bodyguards and more cost. But that means i'm not getting a flamer bomb within 3" that turn.
It's really a very complex interaction.
8 SS/SBs with -2 (if they're within 9") is 32 * .666 * .666 = 14 GEQ. The flamer bomb is 23 GEQ. The Deathwatch will surely be more useful overall, though.
20 Tzaangors on double swing is probably something that stands up mathematically, but comes with a greater chance of absolute failure and up to twice the CP spend (deepstrike and reroll) for an army where it's a bit harder to squeeze in CP.
I'm certain other units can achieve spectacular results on paper, but can they do it with so little support and as cheaply and reliably as GSC? I'm not sure and that's where my distress lies.
Last time I checked a single FRFSRF infantry squad put down 37 shots in 12". So 4 squads with 2 commanders would be 220pts for 148 shots, 74 hits. This is entirely ignoring the round of shooting from 24" that they would most likely get turn 1 when the acolytes are sitting off the board waiting to deep strike.
You're looking at this from a very specific lens if you're like "but what about the kellermorphs!" - I'm looking very generally. What do I take to clear out infantry chaff screens?
How many points is it?
How much CP to I need to spend?
When does the chaff clear happen (do i need to wait until turn 2 when I deep strike)?
How reliable is it (i.e. do I have to make any dice rolls to make it happen/am I highly reliant on winning first turn, making a charge roll, casting a psychic power)?
The current "standard" chaff clearing tactics that you see in competitive army lists if I were to give a brief list for comparison would be stuff like:
-A Da Jumped squad of 30 ork choppa boyz with the evil sunz clan.
210 points. Requires one weirdboy of support minimum, most competitive lists flex a weirdboy between Fists of Gork and Warpath so you can either clear more chaff or buff up your smashboss. Requires the casting of a WC7 psychic power with a +3 on the dice, and then a charge with a free 1 or 2 dice reroll and +1 on the dice.The compound probability is something like a 17% chance of failure to get in. Puts down 120 WS3+ S4 attacks minus overwatch casualties with an option to attack again at the end of the phase for 3CP. Happens turn 1 so you can use deep strike to put in an antiarmor threat turn 2.
-A SS/SB deathwatch squad.
200 points, 1cp or a relic if you use the turn 1 beacon trick. Optional captain to support. Puts down 40 boltgun shots that wound on 2s or have AP-1. Happens turn 2/turn 1 with beacon. Biggest pro is they're tough to remove and often have ways to sneak out of combat if you tie them up.
-FRFSRF infantry
Usually 6 squads/3 commanders for brigade if they're not just "I expect you to die" loyal 32, so 240pts, 90pts of support. no CP. Biggest con is they put out half the firepower turn 1 when they're not in rapid and they're sucsceptible to being cleared by opponent's stuff.
-DE Venoms
90 points per, puts out 20 poisoned shots each. No support needed but I have seen people use Doom if the opponent presents their screen as a single huge unit. Happens turn 1.
Looking at them alongside other competitive anti-chaff measures, I see a couple problems with the flamer acolytes. First and biggest is that they come in turn 2, delaying your anti armor hit past the screen until turn 3, which is pretty much competitive endgame. Second is because they can ONLY be used with a stratagem (their hand flamers don't work off the deep strike otherwise) you get only one unit of them and nothing else gets to use that stratagem that turn. It also has basically no staying power unless you're making it no longer cheap by giving them defensive aura buffs. The big upside you pointed out: it's pretty cheap. no support characters needed really, and only 160 points. I wouldn't bother trying to give them iconwards and patriarchs nearby to keep them alive, it's just extra points you're investing that will die being that close to enemy lines.
I think it's a good and effective antichaff solution, on par with other things currently in the meta, and it's got its own set of benefits and drawbacks.
drbored wrote: Good to see people freaking out about combos before the codex is out. Yes I'm aware there are full reviews of every single page and such, but I'm not about to believe a tier list this early in the game. Theres also the 2 week faq to consider which may change things and may not. Who knows! Nobody.
They have a Vect equivalent stratagem, incredibly efficient units and can soup with Guard or Nids. Of course they're going to be top tier.
They're also glass cannons, and as such are going to be difficult to pilot. The average 40k player is very, very bad at the game. A cursory look around dakka is evidence of this enough.
GSC Won't be taking the game by storm. Smart players who use GSC will be, but that's true with almost any army.
Yes those Aberrants seem extremely fragile. Not to mention we know how tanky the Kabal of the Black Heart's units are but they seem to manage....
I'll look forward to revisiting this thread once GSC have been out in the wild and tournaments start reflecting the evolved meta. It'll be interesting to see how many of you that have literally called people 'noobs', 'CAAC' or any other insult apologise should you be proven wrong.
I get you're being sarcastic here, but a model that costs the same as a Grotesque/Spawn but has half the number of wounds doesn't strike you as a bit of a glass cannon?
The best thing about Grotesques is that they spike hard in defenses vs high quality firepower, and the models LOOK like the kind of thing you want to shoot a plasma gun at. They're a reverse distraction carnifex. T4, W2, 5++ for 27ppm minimum is an incredibly efficient target to shoot with lasguns/boltguns.
No, I don't think they're fragile for their cost. I think they're a steal considering their damage output.
They have a 5+++ and damage reduction on multi damage weapons (which are the bane of multi wound models). Their T can be increased to 5, their 5+++ can become a 4+++.
Where is that increase to BV coming from? The Iconward only allows them to reroll 1s for BV rolls. On the increase to Toughness, that's a random roll from a character that can only be done to a unit once a game, at the possible expense of a dead Abberant. You'll likely want to go for the Strength or Attack roll anyway.
They're not 'fragile', but they are a 5+/5+++. At only 2 wounds. They go down pretty easily if they get stuck outside of combat, which considering how well they swing, they very well might.
"Guys if you spend 5 CP, Have 350pts in Supporting Characters, some of which are useless and need random buffs, you can totally make a unit do x or y", the Thread.
These units are not in a vacuum. We cannot compare them apples to apples against things.
Aberrants, by and large, are the heaviest hitting thing that GSC have access to. Do we also then recognize that, because they only have a 5+/5+++ and reduce damage by 1, and are t4, that they are still hilariously fragile and can die to cultists?
Because a 40 Man squad of Cultists, even without double tapping, still kills 5-6 Aberrants on their own with no buffs, and 12 with a single CP used on them.
A SINGLE Cadian HWT Team kills an Entire Aberrant every turn.
This is their strongest unit, and as a result it NEEDS to produce more damage, because that is it's purpose. It comes in, it smashes, and then it dies to a stale fart carried by the wind.
You want so desperately to be correct and snarkily shove it in peoples faces that you refuse to recognize why things may be the way they are, and apply even a little bit of nuance.
drbored wrote: Good to see people freaking out about combos before the codex is out. Yes I'm aware there are full reviews of every single page and such, but I'm not about to believe a tier list this early in the game. Theres also the 2 week faq to consider which may change things and may not. Who knows! Nobody.
They have a Vect equivalent stratagem, incredibly efficient units and can soup with Guard or Nids. Of course they're going to be top tier.
They're also glass cannons, and as such are going to be difficult to pilot. The average 40k player is very, very bad at the game. A cursory look around dakka is evidence of this enough.
GSC Won't be taking the game by storm. Smart players who use GSC will be, but that's true with almost any army.
Yes those Aberrants seem extremely fragile. Not to mention we know how tanky the Kabal of the Black Heart's units are but they seem to manage....
I'll look forward to revisiting this thread once GSC have been out in the wild and tournaments start reflecting the evolved meta. It'll be interesting to see how many of you that have literally called people 'noobs', 'CAAC' or any other insult apologise should you be proven wrong.
I get you're being sarcastic here, but a model that costs the same as a Grotesque/Spawn but has half the number of wounds doesn't strike you as a bit of a glass cannon?
The best thing about Grotesques is that they spike hard in defenses vs high quality firepower, and the models LOOK like the kind of thing you want to shoot a plasma gun at. They're a reverse distraction carnifex. T4, W2, 5++ for 27ppm minimum is an incredibly efficient target to shoot with lasguns/boltguns.
No, I don't think they're fragile for their cost. I think they're a steal considering their damage output.
They have a 5+++ and damage reduction on multi damage weapons (which are the bane of multi wound models). Their T can be increased to 5, their 5+++ can become a 4+++.
Where is that increase to BV coming from? The Iconward only allows them to reroll 1s for BV rolls. On the increase to Toughness, that's a random roll from a character that can only be done to a unit once a game, at the possible expense of a dead Abberant. You'll likely want to go for the Strength or Attack roll anyway.
They're not 'fragile', but they are a 5+/5+++. At only 2 wounds. They go down pretty easily if they get stuck outside of combat, which considering how well they swing, they very well might.
It's a 27/33 point model that dies faster to boltguns than a tactical marine.
If on one hand you're going to point at every other multiwound model and say "people will just target this model with multiple wounds with their D2 weaponry so that stat doesn't count" then why do you not point at this model and say "people will just NOT target this model with a damage reduction with their D2 weaponry, so that rule doesn't count"?
Guardsmen without FRFSRF get 100% points return shooting an aberrant with pick. That is the definition of a glass cannon unit.
drbored wrote: Good to see people freaking out about combos before the codex is out. Yes I'm aware there are full reviews of every single page and such, but I'm not about to believe a tier list this early in the game. Theres also the 2 week faq to consider which may change things and may not. Who knows! Nobody.
They have a Vect equivalent stratagem, incredibly efficient units and can soup with Guard or Nids. Of course they're going to be top tier.
They're also glass cannons, and as such are going to be difficult to pilot. The average 40k player is very, very bad at the game. A cursory look around dakka is evidence of this enough.
GSC Won't be taking the game by storm. Smart players who use GSC will be, but that's true with almost any army.
Yes those Aberrants seem extremely fragile. Not to mention we know how tanky the Kabal of the Black Heart's units are but they seem to manage....
I'll look forward to revisiting this thread once GSC have been out in the wild and tournaments start reflecting the evolved meta. It'll be interesting to see how many of you that have literally called people 'noobs', 'CAAC' or any other insult apologise should you be proven wrong.
I get you're being sarcastic here, but a model that costs the same as a Grotesque/Spawn but has half the number of wounds doesn't strike you as a bit of a glass cannon?
The best thing about Grotesques is that they spike hard in defenses vs high quality firepower, and the models LOOK like the kind of thing you want to shoot a plasma gun at. They're a reverse distraction carnifex. T4, W2, 5++ for 27ppm minimum is an incredibly efficient target to shoot with lasguns/boltguns.
No, I don't think they're fragile for their cost. I think they're a steal considering their damage output.
They have a 5+++ and damage reduction on multi damage weapons (which are the bane of multi wound models). Their T can be increased to 5, their 5+++ can become a 4+++.
Where is that increase to BV coming from? The Iconward only allows them to reroll 1s for BV rolls. On the increase to Toughness, that's a random roll from a character that can only be done to a unit once a game, at the possible expense of a dead Abberant. You'll likely want to go for the Strength or Attack roll anyway.
They're not 'fragile', but they are a 5+/5+++. At only 2 wounds. They go down pretty easily if they get stuck outside of combat, which considering how well they swing, they very well might.
It's a 27/33 point model that dies faster to boltguns than a tactical marine.
If on one hand you're going to point at every other multiwound model and say "people will just target this model with multiple wounds with their D2 weaponry so that stat doesn't count" then why do you not point at this model and say "people will just NOT target this model with a damage reduction with their D2 weaponry, so that rule doesn't count"?
Guardsmen without FRFSRF get 100% points return shooting an aberrant with pick. That is the definition of a glass cannon unit.
Agree completely (I don't know if you meant to quote me or English). Most of the time, my Abberants die that way, to massed D1 fire... fire warriors and that damnable FtGG.
I can't seem to understand all the hate and rage this Codex is getting.
Carnikang wrote: Where is that increase to BV coming from? The Iconward only allows them to reroll 1s for BV rolls. On the increase to Toughness, that's a random roll from a character that can only be done to a unit once a game, at the possible expense of a dead Abberant. You'll likely want to go for the Strength or Attack roll anyway.
They're not 'fragile', but they are a 5+/5+++. At only 2 wounds. They go down pretty easily if they get stuck outside of combat, which considering how well they swing, they very well might.
It's a 27/33 point model that dies faster to boltguns than a tactical marine.
If on one hand you're going to point at every other multiwound model and say "people will just target this model with multiple wounds with their D2 weaponry so that stat doesn't count" then why do you not point at this model and say "people will just NOT target this model with a damage reduction with their D2 weaponry, so that rule doesn't count"?
Guardsmen without FRFSRF get 100% points return shooting an aberrant with pick. That is the definition of a glass cannon unit.
Says more about Guardsmen than Aberrants imo. It is also not the definition of a glass cannon. It is your definition. I disagree with it.
You make it sound like these units don’t have native access to deep strike and can’t pick (see what I did there?) whatever fights they want. They are very likely to pop up turn 2 and mulch their target. Depending on what that target is they may well make their points back. These aren’t units you should or will slog across the board. Shooting at them with the weapon that kills them best is all well send good but by then they’ve likely wiped something more valuable anyway and they have access to a fight again stratagem that is flat better than the Ork equivalent. Their native deepstrike (and even the blip deployment) is also the reason I can safely say people will end up having to use multi damage weapons against them. They can pick their fights, whether that’s turn 1 or 2. They also have the best cc weapons in the game if I’m not mistaken. For ludicrous points?
I’m not sure what gives the 4+++ but Geoff mentioned it in his video so I assume it’s legit.
I am not going to fight with the quote system while on mobile, so in regards to the flamer bomb conversation:
I am having serious difficulty deciding if I would rather run a flamer bomb or a devilgaunt bomb. Both units fill the same role. The gauntbomb is significantly more expensive, but hits much harder, is more flexible, and eats fewer CP.
Numbers!
A 20 model gauntbomb costs 160 points, and requires a ~90 point delivery mechanism (Jorg., 3x Raveners). It costs 1 CP to use the tunnel strat. They have 18" range and hit put out 35 S4 AP0 hits, for 15 dead GEQ. They can double tap for 2 CP and have enough range to make hitting a second target on the drop reasonably viable.
The Raveners (assuming deathspitters and rending, because that is useful and adds up to a nice round number) will kill a few more GEQ and provide a melee threat.
The entire combo can get access to ignores cover (warlord trait on a Neurothrope that comes with them) although that has disadvantages and limited utility.
So, the gaunts are roughly twice the cost of the flamer bomb for roughly twice the damage. Increased flexibility vs lower base cost.
Carnikang wrote: Where is that increase to BV coming from? The Iconward only allows them to reroll 1s for BV rolls. On the increase to Toughness, that's a random roll from a character that can only be done to a unit once a game, at the possible expense of a dead Abberant. You'll likely want to go for the Strength or Attack roll anyway.
They're not 'fragile', but they are a 5+/5+++. At only 2 wounds. They go down pretty easily if they get stuck outside of combat, which considering how well they swing, they very well might.
It's a 27/33 point model that dies faster to boltguns than a tactical marine.
If on one hand you're going to point at every other multiwound model and say "people will just target this model with multiple wounds with their D2 weaponry so that stat doesn't count" then why do you not point at this model and say "people will just NOT target this model with a damage reduction with their D2 weaponry, so that rule doesn't count"?
Guardsmen without FRFSRF get 100% points return shooting an aberrant with pick. That is the definition of a glass cannon unit.
Says more about Guardsmen than Aberrants imo. It is also not the definition of a glass cannon. It is your definition. I disagree with it.
You make it sound like these units don’t have native access to deep strike and can’t pick (see what I did there?) whatever fights they want. They are very likely to pop up turn 2 and mulch their target. Depending on what that target is they may well make their points back. These aren’t units you should or will slog across the board. Shooting at them with the weapon that kills them best is all well send good but by then they’ve likely wiped something more valuable anyway and they have access to a fight again stratagem that is flat better than the Ork equivalent. Their native deepstrike (and even the blip deployment) is also the reason I can safely say people will end up having to use multi damage weapons against them. They can pick their fights, whether that’s turn 1 or 2. They also have the best cc weapons in the game if I’m not mistaken. For ludicrous points?
I’m not sure what gives the 4+++ but Geoff mentioned it in his video so I assume it’s legit.
1) how do they pick a fight turn 1? GSC has no access to any way to make them deep strike turn 1 or move twice/whatever shenanigans to get them in. They're getting n turn 2 at the fastest, no matter whether you putt hem in a transport or DS them.
2) I'm not finding it personally, either in the relics or anything else. I think he might have misread "reroll 1" as "add 1" in the ability of the iconward.
3) They do not have the best cc weapons in the game. They have thunder hammers. Really good melee weapon, not the best in the game by any stretch.
4) Because it gives a -1 leadership effect? The ork fight again stratagem can be used on any unit...the GSC one is limited only to Aberrants, and only Twisted Helix aberrants. It's still got the same main limitation, which is "the end of the fight phase."
5) Their costs very quickly spiral upwards the more buff auras you imagine to be bringing along with them. Bare minimum, you're going to want a Primus for +1 to hit the turn they come in, and you definitely want an Abominant with the Insidious Mindwyrm warlord trait from the annointed throng detachment. That's 200 points of support units, and 2CP to get them in the detachment. Personally, I'd take them CTFAE rather than Twisted Helix, because I think the "fight when you die" annointed throng stratagem is better than the Twisted Helix fight again strat. Since you're talking about buffing their durability, I'll assume you also want an iconward and a biophagus nearby them, that's another approximately 100pts with the biophagus' familiar to try and get them tougher.
Yeah, that's a unit that will 100% do a HOLY CRAPITY CRAPload of damage on the charge. but you're spending 2cp to get them in Annointed Throng and the extra warlord trait for the abominant, 2cp to put Fight when they die on and 1cp to give them +1A for the phase, just for gaks and giggles.
Assuming you go picks and an 8-man squad, they deal 11 unsaved wounds to a vehicle target on the charge....not terribly exciting. At least, not "mulch anything they encounter" level, in my book. bump them up to hammers and you're talking 27, with the potential to cause even more if they're killed in your opponents turn. NOW you're talking!
But you did spend 564 points and 5CP to do that. And I hope you cleared a lane for them, because those hammers aren't nearly so inspiring splattering a screen.
Cephalobeard wrote: "Guys if you spend 5 CP, Have 350pts in Supporting Characters, some of which are useless and need random buffs, you can totally make a unit do x or y", the Thread.
These units are not in a vacuum. We cannot compare them apples to apples against things.
Aberrants, by and large, are the heaviest hitting thing that GSC have access to. Do we also then recognize that, because they only have a 5+/5+++ and reduce damage by 1, and are t4, that they are still hilariously fragile and can die to cultists?
Because a 40 Man squad of Cultists, even without double tapping, still kills 5-6 Aberrants on their own with no buffs, and 12 with a single CP used on them.
A SINGLE Cadian HWT Team kills an Entire Aberrant every turn.
This is their strongest unit, and as a result it NEEDS to produce more damage, because that is it's purpose. It comes in, it smashes, and then it dies to a stale fart carried by the wind.
You want so desperately to be correct and snarkily shove it in peoples faces that you refuse to recognize why things may be the way they are, and apply even a little bit of nuance.
Ok appointment got cancelled - time to slack off again!
I both think Aberrants are strong and terrible at the same time.
Power pick aberrants are cheap enough, but who gives a crap about a bunch of S5 swings (except the hypermorph - he's just baller)? Yet they can boost to S7 quite easily, so 5 S7 attacks per model is achievable. This isn't valuable in the knight meta though. I don't think this type of aberannt does anything useful that a chainfist acolyte can't do more cheaply.
So, we have to go up by 7 points for a hammer. 3 S14 TH attacks with a -1 to hit and one S7. That's not bad. A loyalist terminator now pays 41 vs this guy at 32.
So they're like an inverse terminator and much better than SS vs D2 when buffed. Hell - a D3 wound has a horribly low chance to kill one as it takes only two wounds and needs to save just one or the other with a 58% success rate.
We don't put terminators on the field, right? And people struggle to get TH/SS to where they need to be, because they lack the things that get them there. Can you say the same thing about Aberrants?
What about attacking?
- Terminators get 2 hammer swings at S10. These gets get 2 at S10/12/14 and typically 3 attacks - marines have no similar buff spell.
- Marines can get up to full rerolls. Aberrants can get +1 to hit. Mostly a wash (.888 v .833).
- Marines can get rerolls 1s to wound. Aberrants get reroll 1s, but only once.
So a Chapter Master and Lieutenant is a wash on Primus and Magus. Then we have Iconward for 56 and 5 CP (which is like 8 to 10 CP to marines).
That makes Aberrants 50% more damaging than TH/SS termies when they hit. I don't think the abominant brings enough to the table for the points.
============================
Conclusion -
You have reverse terminators that hit hard and need to avoid small arms fire. They must be delivered by CP.
They exist in an army that has tools that can easily clear units that scare them and have tons of CP on hand.
The problem, as I see it, is you have to clear enough turns 1 and 2 to bring them on turn 3 and you aren't doing much on turn 1. If they have no way to real their ideal target at that time they will be a huge point sink.
It requires about 800 points in deepstrike so it seems doable, but questionable.
**IF** you can deliver 6 (192 points) of them and the standard support to a Castellan that has no melee invulnerable they will 1 round it.
I’m not sure what gives the 4+++ but Geoff mentioned it in his video so I assume it’s legit.
4+++ is 2 CP stratagem
Automatically Appended Next Post:
babelfish wrote: I am not going to fight with the quote system while on mobile, so in regards to the flamer bomb conversation:
I am having serious difficulty deciding if I would rather run a flamer bomb or a devilgaunt bomb. Both units fill the same role. The gauntbomb is significantly more expensive, but hits much harder, is more flexible, and eats fewer CP.
Numbers!
A 20 model gauntbomb costs 160 points, and requires a ~90 point delivery mechanism (Jorg., 3x Raveners). It costs 1 CP to use the tunnel strat. They have 18" range and hit put out 35 S4 AP0 hits, for 15 dead GEQ. They can double tap for 2 CP and have enough range to make hitting a second target on the drop reasonably viable.
The Raveners (assuming deathspitters and rending, because that is useful and adds up to a nice round number) will kill a few more GEQ and provide a melee threat.
The entire combo can get access to ignores cover (warlord trait on a Neurothrope that comes with them) although that has disadvantages and limited utility.
So, the gaunts are roughly twice the cost of the flamer bomb for roughly twice the damage. Increased flexibility vs lower base cost.
You meant 60 shots at 3 per gaunt on 20 gaunts, right?
60 * .5 * .666 * .666 = 13.3 GEQ //doubles to 26.6 for 2 CP
So, by "standard support" you're talking magus and primus, succeed the psychic power to get them might from beyond, take them in anointed throng and spend 3Cp on +1A and Fight when you Die?
That's 321 points, if it were me I'd probably bump it to 10 man squad just in case I don't get MFB/get overwatched by the castellan's 3 damage gun, making it 453 points....
Yeah. I'm comfortable with 453 points spending 3CP and taking down a 600 point target. 6CP if you want to make the charge reliable. Smash characters spend that many CP and cost less than half that many points usually.
I guess my only concern would be, are you allowed to use a stratagem on a unit that's not on the battlefield? If so, then that's definitely awesome. If not, I don't think it's that useful.
the_scotsman wrote: So, by "standard support" you're talking magus and primus, succeed the psychic power to get them might from beyond, take them in anointed throng and spend 3Cp on +1A and Fight when you Die?
That's 321 points, if it were me I'd probably bump it to 10 man squad just in case I don't get MFB/get overwatched by the castellan's 3 damage gun, making it 453 points....
Yeah. I'm comfortable with 453 points spending 3CP and taking down a 600 point target. 6CP if you want to make the charge reliable. Smash characters spend that many CP and cost less than half that many points usually.
Not even factoring anointed. 6 * 3 * .666 * .777 * .833 * 3 = 23 and then rending claws.
Their spell is +1S +1A to all models in a unit.
Yes, additional models are probably required unless you get Mass Hypnosis off and turn off overwatch (but that's more points).
The odds of a relic plasma decimator shot killing them is pretty low. All the other guns could result in a couple dead though.
Are you really comfortable with that when the opponent has no chance to respond other than make sure chaff doesn't die? 6 Skyweavers with Doom support get 14 hits. That's 14 mortal wounds for 370 points. Add another squad of 6 to one round it like the Aberrants and it's 610 points. But these units are on the table and likely visible. If they don't get turn 1 a lot of them will die. And that's bleeding edge efficient.
1) how do they pick a fight turn 1? GSC has no access to any way to make them deep strike turn 1 or move twice/whatever shenanigans to get them in. They're getting n turn 2 at the fastest, no matter whether you putt hem in a transport or DS them.
Blips man. Blips and chips. Melee unit goes into position to attack blip x with blip y behind it. I wonder if blip y will happen to be Aberrantoes? picking the fight.
2) I'm not finding it personally, either in the relics or anything else. I think he might have misread "reroll 1" as "add 1" in the ability of the iconward.
See below.
3) They do not have the best cc weapons in the game. They have thunder hammers. Really good melee weapon, not the best in the game by any stretch.
Is there a better one outside of relics, named character weapons and titan/vehicle weapons? What?
4) Because it gives a -1 leadership effect? The ork fight again stratagem can be used on any unit...the GSC one is limited only to Aberrants, and only Twisted Helix aberrants. It's still got the same main limitation, which is "the end of the fight phase."
My mistake, I thought it wasn't tied to the end of the phase.
5) Their costs very quickly spiral upwards the more buff auras you imagine to be bringing along with them. Bare minimum, you're going to want a Primus for +1 to hit the turn they come in, and you definitely want an Abominant with the Insidious Mindwyrm warlord trait from the annointed throng detachment. That's 200 points of support units, and 2CP to get them in the detachment. Personally, I'd take them CTFAE rather than Twisted Helix, because I think the "fight when you die" annointed throng stratagem is better than the Twisted Helix fight again strat. Since you're talking about buffing their durability, I'll assume you also want an iconward and a biophagus nearby them, that's another approximately 100pts with the biophagus' familiar to try and get them tougher.
To be clear I was using their durability as a counter to the claim that CotFAE has less durable units than the Black Heart Kabal and hence A Plan Gens in the Making is easily going to be stopped by killing these fragile units.
I do believe Aberrants are better than the units that they are equivalent to such as Nobs, Terminators etc for their price. They can DS and stack enough buffs/stratagems to ensure their target is mushed. They are more durable against the weapons their intended targets are likely to bear. Does that make sense?
I guess my only concern would be, are you allowed to use a stratagem on a unit that's not on the battlefield? If so, then that's definitely awesome. If not, I don't think it's that useful.
That's actually a very good question...if they can't use it while in deepstrike then it makes them a bunch worse.
1) how do they pick a fight turn 1? GSC has no access to any way to make them deep strike turn 1 or move twice/whatever shenanigans to get them in. They're getting n turn 2 at the fastest, no matter whether you putt hem in a transport or DS them.
Blips man. Blips and chips. Melee unit goes into position to attack blip x with blip y behind it. I wonder if blip y will happen to be Aberrantoes? picking the fight.
2) I'm not finding it personally, either in the relics or anything else. I think he might have misread "reroll 1" as "add 1" in the ability of the iconward.
See below.
3) They do not have the best cc weapons in the game. They have thunder hammers. Really good melee weapon, not the best in the game by any stretch.
Is there a better one outside of relics, named character weapons and titan/vehicle weapons? What?
4) Because it gives a -1 leadership effect? The ork fight again stratagem can be used on any unit...the GSC one is limited only to Aberrants, and only Twisted Helix aberrants. It's still got the same main limitation, which is "the end of the fight phase."
My mistake, I thought it wasn't tied to the end of the phase.
5) Their costs very quickly spiral upwards the more buff auras you imagine to be bringing along with them. Bare minimum, you're going to want a Primus for +1 to hit the turn they come in, and you definitely want an Abominant with the Insidious Mindwyrm warlord trait from the annointed throng detachment. That's 200 points of support units, and 2CP to get them in the detachment. Personally, I'd take them CTFAE rather than Twisted Helix, because I think the "fight when you die" annointed throng stratagem is better than the Twisted Helix fight again strat. Since you're talking about buffing their durability, I'll assume you also want an iconward and a biophagus nearby them, that's another approximately 100pts with the biophagus' familiar to try and get them tougher.
To be clear I was using their durability as a counter to the claim that CotFAE has less durable units than the Black Heart Kabal and hence A Plan Gens in the Making is easily going to be stopped by killing these fragile units.
I do believe Aberrants are better than the units that they are equivalent to such as Nobs, Terminators etc for their price. They can DS and stack enough buffs/stratagems to ensure their target is mushed. They are more durable against the weapons their intended targets are likely to bear. Does that make sense?
1.) That's not how blips work. They're revealed at the end of the FIRST movement phase. They have to be in YOUR deployment zone. They do absolutely nothing to help GSC get anywhere turn 1.
I guess my only concern would be, are you allowed to use a stratagem on a unit that's not on the battlefield? If so, then that's definitely awesome. If not, I don't think it's that useful.
That's actually a very good question...if they can't use it while in deepstrike then it makes them a bunch worse.
You can't. You can thank the FAQ that disabled the Pox Bloom shenanigans for that. Aberrants will only have a 4+++ if they survive shooting, which, if you're playing anyone competent, they will not.
1.) That's not how blips work. They're revealed at the end of the FIRST movement phase. They have to be in YOUR deployment zone. They do absolutely nothing to help GSC get anywhere turn 1.
I know how they work mate. I'm talking about countering potential turn 1 charges.... I'm not saying they help GSC get anywhere turn 1. I don't think I could have explained it any more clearly.
I move my units in MY FIRST MOVEMENT PHASE, some of my units are positioned so they can perform a turn 1 charge. You reveal your blips to perfectly counter the charge, possibly utilising Abs...
I guess my only concern would be, are you allowed to use a stratagem on a unit that's not on the battlefield? If so, then that's definitely awesome. If not, I don't think it's that useful.
That's actually a very good question...if they can't use it while in deepstrike then it makes them a bunch worse.
You can't. You can thank the FAQ that disabled the Pox Bloom shenanigans for that. Aberrants will only have a 4+++ if they survive shooting, which, if you're playing anyone competent, they will not.
Gotcha - that certainly makes them much worse. I'd rather dump them for chainfists if I wanted to kill vehicles.
1.) That's not how blips work. They're revealed at the end of the FIRST movement phase. They have to be in YOUR deployment zone. They do absolutely nothing to help GSC get anywhere turn 1.
I know how they work mate. I'm talking about countering potential turn 1 charges.... I'm not saying they help GSC get anywhere turn 1. I don't think I could have explained it any more clearly.
I move my units in MY FIRST MOVEMENT PHASE, some of my units are positioned so they can perform a turn 1 charge. You reveal your blips to perfectly counter the charge, possibly utilising Abs...
You're not demonstrating a good knowledge of them, because counter -charging with aberrants is a terrible idea.
1.) If you reveal them, they're now eligible to be shot.
2.) Abs, unless carried by additional supporting units, will not be able to Heroically Intervene.
3.) Abs will likely not survive a powerful charge, because they die to a stale fart. A single smash captain likely kills half of an average squad, just as a basic example.
This is the weirdest cherry picked scenario in the world, and literally no one is going to make it into your deployment zone (because they can't, as blips as a rule prevent them from coming near 9" of you), and even then you're not putting them in a blip because you can just deep strike them into your own deployment zone.
Cephalobeard wrote: This is the weirdest cherry picked scenario in the world, and literally no one is going to make it into your deployment zone (because they can't, as blips as a rule prevent them from coming near 9" of you), and even then you're not putting them in a blip because you can just deep strike them into your own deployment zone.
You "explained" it fine, it's just bad.
It does manage to preserve his irrational indignation though, so keep that in mind.
1.) That's not how blips work. They're revealed at the end of the FIRST movement phase. They have to be in YOUR deployment zone. They do absolutely nothing to help GSC get anywhere turn 1.
I know how they work mate. I'm talking about countering potential turn 1 charges.... I'm not saying they help GSC get anywhere turn 1. I don't think I could have explained it any more clearly.
I move my units in MY FIRST MOVEMENT PHASE, some of my units are positioned so they can perform a turn 1 charge. You reveal your blips to perfectly counter the charge, possibly utilising Abs...
You're not demonstrating a good knowledge of them, because counter -charging with aberrants is a terrible idea.
1.) If you reveal them, they're now eligible to be shot.
2.) Abs, unless carried by additional supporting units, will not be able to Heroically Intervene.
3.) Abs will likely not survive a powerful charge, because they die to a stale fart. A single smash captain likely kills half of an average squad, just as a basic example.
This is the weirdest cherry picked scenario in the world, and literally no one is going to make it into your deployment zone (because they can't, as blips as a rule prevent them from coming near 9" of you), and even then you're not putting them in a blip because you can just deep strike them into your own deployment zone.
You "explained" it fine, it's just bad.
You still haven't understood my example so clearly my explanation is flawed or you're just not getting it.
1. They are only eligible to be shot if they are in range and LOS.
2. I'm not talking about heroically intervening, I haven't mentioned it at all. Countercharge in your turn. Let the opponents' melee unit wipe chaff.
3. They were never getting charged. The chaff of your army gets charged. The Abs sit behind and mop up in their turn.
Why are you talking about units getting into your deployment zone? Have you ever gone second? Played against an army that can easily put first turn melee pressure on (Orks using Da Jump for example)?
TwinPoleTheory wrote: It does manage to preserve his irrational indignation though, so keep that in mind.
Rude. I guess I have to remind you that this is all in response to Cephalo claiming GSC are difficult to pilot because they are 'glass cannons'. There's many Dark Eldar players proving this theory wrong as I write this. They are +literally+ the most successful mono army as of now.
And you talk to me of irrational indignation? Please.
So we're not "Counter Charging", we're literally just "Charging".
Heroically Intervening, Stooping Dive, those would be "Counter Charges".
Our army... shouldn't... have chaff... that's not how GSC functions.
This is further proving the point of "GSC Won't be overpowered because poor players won't pilot them well."
75% of a GSC Players army doesn't even need to be on the table. If an Ork player wants to "Da Jump" nothing, go for it. If they want to move their units and charge the few useless pieces of nothing you've left on the table for the sole purpose of denying space with blips, go for it, because that's NOT how this army plays.
I'm talking about units in your deployment zone because you used the absolutely awful example of units charging you turn one, and you counter charging. Following that example, there is no where else you could physically be for them to charge.
I suppose that "other than relic weapons, named character weapons, and monster/vehicle weapons" I can't name a better weapon than a thunder hammer....which is a weapon that a LOT of codexes have access to an equivalent to...
You know I would probably have thought the best melee weapon in the game wouldn't suddenly exclude relics, character weapons and monster/vehicle weapons.
I will definitely say that aberrants are solidly better than TH/SS terminators as an anti-tank deep strike unit, and way better than killsaw nobz for sure. I don't like Pick aberrants better than big choppa nobz. I'm on the fence about killsaw meganobz vs hammer aberrants. You can definitely buff the aberrants way more than the manz, but I think the minimum cost of using the manz is far lower because you can just slap evil sunz on them and call it a day. No reason to spend any CP/cast any powers just to make them meet a "bare minimum level of accepability." Also, orks have much better ways to clear chaff round 1 to get them ready to rock turn 2 IMO. GSC can clear chaff like nobodys business...on turn 2.
Even with CTFAE, I think you need *something* to make the aberrants better at charging. 8" charge with just a single die reroll available is still only 62% compound probability which is a little risky for a unit thats best build starts at 165.
As an aside, I am a tiny bit miffed they seem to have raised the min unit size from 4 to 5, just so those of us who bought DW:O have to buy the new kit to field these guys. A very GW move.
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Cephalobeard wrote: So we're not "Counter Charging", we're literally just "Charging".
Heroically Intervening, Stooping Dive, those would be "Counter Charges".
Our army... shouldn't... have chaff... that's not how GSC functions.
This is further proving the point of "GSC Won't be overpowered because poor players won't pilot them well."
75% of a GSC Players army doesn't even need to be on the table. If an Ork player wants to "Da Jump" nothing, go for it. If they want to move their units and charge the few useless pieces of nothing you've left on the table for the sole purpose of denying space with blips, go for it, because that's NOT how this army plays.
I'm talking about units in your deployment zone because you used the absolutely awful example of units charging you turn one, and you counter charging. Following that example, there is no where else you could physically be for them to charge.
Cephalobeard wrote: 75% of a GSC Players army doesn't even need to be on the table. If an Ork player wants to "Da Jump" nothing, go for it. If they want to move their units and charge the few useless pieces of nothing you've left on the table for the sole purpose of denying space with blips, go for it, because that's NOT how this army plays.
The 'Da Jump' example really breaks down in the fact that it occurs during the psychic phase after blips have been revealed.
But perhaps a squad of Ork Bikers, Evil Sunz, they could potentially get in position for a first turn charge. Then you could have a squad of Neophytes lined up in front of multi-story ruins, and you're using ITC terrain rules, so you have the squad of Aberrants on the first floor of the ruins, so they can't be shot at, and you don't get overwatch when they charge out of there. So the scenario exists I guess, you'd just have to be pretty stupid to get suckered into it, or just really unfamiliar with GSC.
Specifically a stratagem that allows you to move three units from "ambush" to "underground".
So, you leave your 3 most expensive units on the table (See: Abbs, Patriarchs, etc), and during movement phase 1 you spend a single CP to move them into Reserve. This allows you to have 1000-1725pts or so, roughly, reliably in reserve. Only further requirement is units on the table, which through a mixture of MSU Acolytes, Characters, Mortars, etc, you can easily reach.
My army has about 10 drops on the table, the rest is all in reserve. I have absolutely nothing worth being interacted with on the table.
Cephalobeard wrote: 75% of a GSC Players army doesn't even need to be on the table. If an Ork player wants to "Da Jump" nothing, go for it. If they want to move their units and charge the few useless pieces of nothing you've left on the table for the sole purpose of denying space with blips, go for it, because that's NOT how this army plays.
The 'Da Jump' example really breaks down in the fact that it occurs during the psychic phase after blips have been revealed.
But perhaps a squad of Ork Bikers, Evil Sunz, they could potentially get in position for a first turn charge. Then you could have a squad of Neophytes lined up in front of multi-story ruins, and you're using ITC terrain rules, so you have the squad of Aberrants on the first floor of the ruins, so they can't be shot at, and you don't get overwatch when they charge out of there. So the scenario exists I guess, you'd just have to be pretty stupid to get suckered into it, or just really unfamiliar with GSC.
Cephalobeard wrote: This is further proving the point of "GSC Won't be overpowered because poor players won't pilot them well."
Lol. This is so wrong it's funny.
You aren't some tactical genius who is one of the lucky few to understand how to play GSC well. Are you trying to claim that they are any more difficult, less durable and more glass hammery than Dark Eldar? Y'know, the top performing mono faction as of now.
It doesn't take a genius to read a codex and figure out the best combos. Particularly with how fast the internet spreads information.
Dunno why everyone is freaking out about aberrants with hammers. They’ve been able to do what they’re doing since CA17 when hammers dropped in price. All thats happened since is their DS got more consistent but less powerful with the ambush change and they got a FNP and a few other minor buffs. The big factors to their power (might from beyond, Primus +1 to hit) have been around since index
Cephalobeard wrote: 75% of a GSC Players army doesn't even need to be on the table. If an Ork player wants to "Da Jump" nothing, go for it. If they want to move their units and charge the few useless pieces of nothing you've left on the table for the sole purpose of denying space with blips, go for it, because that's NOT how this army plays.
The 'Da Jump' example really breaks down in the fact that it occurs during the psychic phase after blips have been revealed.
But perhaps a squad of Ork Bikers, Evil Sunz, they could potentially get in position for a first turn charge. Then you could have a squad of Neophytes lined up in front of multi-story ruins, and you're using ITC terrain rules, so you have the squad of Aberrants on the first floor of the ruins, so they can't be shot at, and you don't get overwatch when they charge out of there. So the scenario exists I guess, you'd just have to be pretty stupid to get suckered into it, or just really unfamiliar with GSC.
You GENESTEALER cult players really can't think of any units that can run down a flank and attempt a turn 1 charge? You can think of no units, excluding Evil Sunz bikes, that might give the game away in terms of which flank or other area of the board they are targeting for a possible T1 charge?
Fair enough. Perhaps the example was a poor one.
Please do respond to my many, other points at your leisure.
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Cephalobeard wrote: I'm not a tactical genius in any sense of the phrase, but I'm demonstrating more understanding of how the game works than you are as a basis.
Doubling down on your poor choices here isn't making you more correct, it's just getting you to respond more emotionally.
This entire page is just people illustrating why your example is wrong.
You haven't changed that.
Not really? Your claim that GSC will be 'too hard to pilot' because they are a 'glass cannon' army is false on 2 levels.
1. Glass cannon armies are not too difficult for players to pilot - as evidenced by DEldar.
2. GSC are actually durable - see T5, 5+, 4+++ with rr 1s Aberrants. See 10 ppm T4, 2W bikes with -1 to hit. See the Ridge runner.
An Actual Englishman wrote: You GENESTEALER cult players really can't think of any units that can run down a flank and attempt a turn 1 charge? You can think of no units, excluding Evil Sunz bikes, that might give the game away in terms of which flank or other area of the board they are targeting for a possible T1 charge?
Sure, I play Chaos, I have several options to accomplish this with Warptime, the rest of the example still stands though. Somehow the Aberrants would have to be entirely out of sight, untargetable, yet able to charge on their turn easily. It's simply a situation where you kind of have to screw up or not understand your opponent for that to happen, at which point, that's on you, not the codex. It just seems like a rather convoluted situation for someone to really screw that up. Perhaps I've just played against GSC a lot with ITC terrain rules, first floor ruins are to be avoided until the ambush has played itself out, admittedly, I didn't follow this practice last weekend, but that's on me, not my opponent's army.
An Actual Englishman wrote: You GENESTEALER cult players really can't think of any units that can run down a flank and attempt a turn 1 charge? You can think of no units, excluding Evil Sunz bikes, that might give the game away in terms of which flank or other area of the board they are targeting for a possible T1 charge?
Sure, I play Chaos, I have several options to accomplish this with Warptime, the rest of the example still stands though. Somehow the Aberrants would have to be entirely out of sight, untargetable, yet able to charge on their turn easily. It's simply a situation where you kind of have to screw up or not understand your opponent for that to happen, at which point, that's on you, not the codex. It just seems like a rather convoluted situation for someone to really screw that up. Perhaps I've just played against GSC a lot with ITC terrain rules, first floor ruins are to be avoided until the ambush has played itself out, admittedly, I didn't follow this practice last weekend, but that's on me, not my opponent's army.
I disagree. They can move what, 6"? So they can relatively easily get into a charging position from outside of range/LOS of scary ranged units.
Regardless this conversation all feels very mis-directional. As above (that you haven't quoted/responded to, again) this entire thing is in response to the claim that GSC are hard to pilot because they are 'glass cannons'. Something I believe I have evidenced as false. I'll concede the above point regarding Abs and blips. I'm Interested to discuss other things I have raised but this probably isn't the thread for it, to be fair.
An Actual Englishman wrote: Regardless this conversation all feels very mis-directional. As above (that you haven't quoted/responded to, again) this entire thing is in response to the claim that GSC are hard to pilot because they are 'glass cannons'.
I don't know about hard to pilot, I really am not a good person to speak to that aspect of them, I play against them too often. I know them almost as well as I know my own army sadly. As for the glass cannon part, for sure, none of their units have any real staying power. Aberrants are about as good as it gets for them and even they get beat down pretty quickly, in my experience.
An Actual Englishman wrote: Regardless this conversation all feels very mis-directional. As above (that you haven't quoted/responded to, again) this entire thing is in response to the claim that GSC are hard to pilot because they are 'glass cannons'.
I don't know about hard to pilot, I really am not a good person to speak to that aspect of them, I play against them too often. I know them almost as well as I know my own army sadly. As for the glass cannon part, for sure, none of their units have any real staying power. Aberrants are about as good as it gets for them and even they get beat down pretty quickly, in my experience.
I've found Abs pretty tanky but either way we can see the codex has both increased the Abs durability but also introduced new, durable units point for point.
An Actual Englishman wrote: I've found Abs pretty tanky but either way we can see the codex has both increased the Abs durability but also introduced new, durable units point for point.
I haven't seen anything else in the codex so far that really bothers me, certainly nothing as durable as Aberrants. Heavy Bolter still kills almost every non-vehicle unit in their army without too much trouble. Mental Onslaught is something to be aware of, but that's probably not going to be open-ended damage in the long term, and denies are easy to come by, the Kellermorph is a suicide bomber that might kill one badly positioned character, the Sanctus concerns me more honestly. Brood Brothers getting orders, after reading the rule more carefully I tend to agree they won't be able to use orders, especially given that the Vox-Caster allows them to re-roll morale tests and makes no mention of orders.
Furthermore, the lists being posted here by people trying to go through the contortions necessary to get all of these special little characters in is laughable, I mean look at these lists, all they can do is clear infantry, god forbid they ran into anything that was actually durable.
Abs got one stratagem to improve their FNP by 1 for a turn that they can't use coming out of deep strike. I'm much more concerned about the one that lets them fight again when they die, I promise you, from my own personal experience, that is the one that really sucks. At the same time, shoot them, charge them, suck it up, they die.
I'll look forward to revisiting this thread once GSC have been out in the wild and tournaments start reflecting the evolved meta. It'll be interesting to see how many of you that have literally called people 'noobs', 'CAAC' or any other insult apologise should you be proven wrong.
CAAC is making declarations that something is too strong before you've even attempted to adapt to it and beat it. My argument is not that you're wrong, my argument is that whining for changes this early is not a competitive standpoint. Competitive players find ways to adapt to new threats entering the meta and from that point we see how good a dex is.
There's literally no way I can be "proved wrong" lol, you're rewriting my stance to hinge on the viability of GSC when it does not. GSC could become S+ tier, and I've never said that's impossible - just that we don't know. You think you know, but competitive players will tell you that no, you don't really - because even many time tournament winners are interested to see the impact of a dex on a meta before decrying it. You are not one of these players. Your declarations may end up being right by chance, but if there were it's for the wrong reasons entirely. Even a broken clock is right twice a day.
1) how do they pick a fight turn 1? GSC has no access to any way to make them deep strike turn 1 or move twice/whatever shenanigans to get them in. They're getting n turn 2 at the fastest, no matter whether you putt hem in a transport or DS them.
Blips man. Blips and chips. Melee unit goes into position to attack blip x with blip y behind it. I wonder if blip y will happen to be Aberrantoes? picking the fight.
2) I'm not finding it personally, either in the relics or anything else. I think he might have misread "reroll 1" as "add 1" in the ability of the iconward.
See below.
3) They do not have the best cc weapons in the game. They have thunder hammers. Really good melee weapon, not the best in the game by any stretch.
Is there a better one outside of relics, named character weapons and titan/vehicle weapons? What?
4) Because it gives a -1 leadership effect? The ork fight again stratagem can be used on any unit...the GSC one is limited only to Aberrants, and only Twisted Helix aberrants. It's still got the same main limitation, which is "the end of the fight phase."
My mistake, I thought it wasn't tied to the end of the phase.
5) Their costs very quickly spiral upwards the more buff auras you imagine to be bringing along with them. Bare minimum, you're going to want a Primus for +1 to hit the turn they come in, and you definitely want an Abominant with the Insidious Mindwyrm warlord trait from the annointed throng detachment. That's 200 points of support units, and 2CP to get them in the detachment. Personally, I'd take them CTFAE rather than Twisted Helix, because I think the "fight when you die" annointed throng stratagem is better than the Twisted Helix fight again strat. Since you're talking about buffing their durability, I'll assume you also want an iconward and a biophagus nearby them, that's another approximately 100pts with the biophagus' familiar to try and get them tougher.
To be clear I was using their durability as a counter to the claim that CotFAE has less durable units than the Black Heart Kabal and hence A Plan Gens in the Making is easily going to be stopped by killing these fragile units.
I do believe Aberrants are better than the units that they are equivalent to such as Nobs, Terminators etc for their price. They can DS and stack enough buffs/stratagems to ensure their target is mushed. They are more durable against the weapons their intended targets are likely to bear. Does that make sense?
1.) That's not how blips work. They're revealed at the end of the FIRST movement phase. They have to be in YOUR deployment zone. They do absolutely nothing to help GSC get anywhere turn 1.
Welcome to 2019, it's not the first rule that he's gotten wrong either that he won't step down from when called on it either, too busy making strong declarations to slow down now.
I want you to explain it yourself, because I want to see what pretzel you twist yourself into doing it:
How do you reliably get T5, 4+++ reroll in 1s aberrants on the table?
How do you do that?
Because to me, the fact that T5 is something you have to get by rolling a D3 on an ability that has a 1/6 chance of installing a member of the squad, and the 4+++ is something you can't get unless the unit isn't in DS or a transport at the start of a turn, is a bit of a limiting factor.
This is,exactly as goofy as me claiming space marines are T4, -1 to hit, 4++, with 5+ overwatch.
babelfish wrote: I am not going to fight with the quote system while on mobile, so in regards to the flamer bomb conversation:
I am having serious difficulty deciding if I would rather run a flamer bomb or a devilgaunt bomb. Both units fill the same role. The gauntbomb is significantly more expensive, but hits much harder, is more flexible, and eats fewer CP.
Numbers!
A 20 model gauntbomb costs 160 points, and requires a ~90 point delivery mechanism (Jorg., 3x Raveners). It costs 1 CP to use the tunnel strat. They have 18" range and hit put out 35 S4 AP0 hits, for 15 dead GEQ. They can double tap for 2 CP and have enough range to make hitting a second target on the drop reasonably viable.
The Raveners (assuming deathspitters and rending, because that is useful and adds up to a nice round number) will kill a few more GEQ and provide a melee threat.
The entire combo can get access to ignores cover (warlord trait on a Neurothrope that comes with them) although that has disadvantages and limited utility.
So, the gaunts are roughly twice the cost of the flamer bomb for roughly twice the damage. Increased flexibility vs lower base cost.
You meant 60 shots at 3 per gaunt on 20 gaunts, right?
60 * .5 * .666 * .666 = 13.3 GEQ //doubles to 26.6 for 2 CP
Total cost is 250 points and 3 CP.
The flamer bomb --
70 * .5 * .666 = 23 GEQ
Total cost is 160 and 2 CP
Hail of living ammunition triggers at 20 gaunts, but I calculated it as reroll 1's to hit instead of to wound, so we were both wrong.
Raveners are 3 shots at S5 AP -1 for (3 * 3 * .5 * .666 *.166) = 0.497.
So the entire thing nets 16 GEQ for 1 CP or 31.5 for 3 CP. 90 points and 1 CP for 8.5 GEQ, the added flexibility of 18" range, and whatever value you want to put on 3 Ravener bodies.
The more I look at it the more I am included towards the flamers. The extra 8 kills doesn't feel worth 90 points. The Kelermorph generates close to that for less, if you really really need to finish off that screen.
There might be a place for the big gaunt bomb (30x, bringing a Neuro with them for fearless + smite, maybe a 4th Ravener), but that is a 450 point combo. Clears infantry like a charm, scratches ineffectually vs everything else.
the_scotsman wrote: I want you to explain it yourself, because I want to see what pretzel you twist yourself into doing it:
How do you reliably get T5, 4+++ reroll in 1s aberrants on the table?
How do you do that?
Because to me, the fact that T5 is something you have to get by rolling a D3 on an ability that has a 1/6 chance of installing a member of the squad, and the 4+++ is something you can't get unless the unit isn't in DS or a transport at the start of a turn, is a bit of a limiting factor.
This is,exactly as goofy as me claiming space marines are T4, -1 to hit, 4++, with 5+ overwatch.
You can get a familiar for the Biologus that gives 2D3 pick one, but I don't know what T5 really does for them.
the_scotsman wrote: I want you to explain it yourself, because I want to see what pretzel you twist yourself into doing it:
How do you reliably get T5, 4+++ reroll in 1s aberrants on the table?
How do you do that?
Because to me, the fact that T5 is something you have to get by rolling a D3 on an ability that has a 1/6 chance of installing a member of the squad, and the 4+++ is something you can't get unless the unit isn't in DS or a transport at the start of a turn, is a bit of a limiting factor.
This is,exactly as goofy as me claiming space marines are T4, -1 to hit, 4++, with 5+ overwatch.
You can get a familiar for the Biologus that gives 2D3 pick one, but I don't know what T5 really does for them.
It's the least desirable of the three buffs. It's not that it's bad, it's just not what you brought the Good Doctor for.
the_scotsman wrote: I want you to explain it yourself, because I want to see what pretzel you twist yourself into doing it:
How do you reliably get T5, 4+++ reroll in 1s aberrants on the table?
How do you do that?
Because to me, the fact that T5 is something you have to get by rolling a D3 on an ability that has a 1/6 chance of installing a member of the squad, and the 4+++ is something you can't get unless the unit isn't in DS or a transport at the start of a turn, is a bit of a limiting factor.
This is,exactly as goofy as me claiming space marines are T4, -1 to hit, 4++, with 5+ overwatch.
You've literally explained it.
How do you do it? Iconward + stratagem for DV + Biophagus with CP reroll if required.
You want me to tell you how you get 10 ppm 2W, T4 -1 to hit bikes too? Or the Ridge runner?
the_scotsman wrote: I want you to explain it yourself, because I want to see what pretzel you twist yourself into doing it:
How do you reliably get T5, 4+++ reroll in 1s aberrants on the table?
How do you do that?
Because to me, the fact that T5 is something you have to get by rolling a D3 on an ability that has a 1/6 chance of installing a member of the squad, and the 4+++ is something you can't get unless the unit isn't in DS or a transport at the start of a turn, is a bit of a limiting factor.
This is,exactly as goofy as me claiming space marines are T4, -1 to hit, 4++, with 5+ overwatch.
You can get a familiar for the Biologus that gives 2D3 pick one, but I don't know what T5 really does for them.
The Familiar is also once a game ability. So it's once you get to pick out of two choices that might not be what you want.
Did the familiar ability say you could reroll one of the die if it was a double? Because if not, you might also not get a choice unfortunately.
The more I look at him, the more I wonder exactly how useful he will be consistently. I mean, you're already saving a reroll (maybe) for the inevitable 1 that's going to kill an Abberant.... But would you bother using it on the D3? Hrm.
The Familiar is also once a game ability. So it's once you get to pick out of two choices that might not be what you want.
Did the familiar ability say you could reroll one of the die if it was a double? Because if not, you might also not get a choice unfortunately.
The more I look at him, the more I wonder exactly how useful he will be consistently. I mean, you're already saving a reroll (maybe) for the inevitable 1 that's going to kill an Abberant.... But would you bother using it on the D3? Hrm.
Oddly enough there is no clause for doubles so you're SOL if it doesn't roll well.
The amount of alerts that this thread is generating is quite frankly ridiculous. Please stop bickering and having little digs at other posters, if you find someone annoying put them on ignore, if they violate the rules then use the mod alert button and do not engage with them. Any more infractions are going to earn their poster a warning/suspension.
So, 3 months into the release of the codex, and GSCsomehow didn't manage to dominate, or even significantly change the meta like DE or Knights were able to in half that time, so I thought I would take another look at this thread.
And my Gosh some of these comments are quite funny in hindsight.
Anyways, wanted to talk about Nick Rose. If you don't who this is, he is the most successful GSC player in the ITC and the guy who mained the army even when they were an index, and this week he has come out and said that and saying he's dropping the codex because he feels the dex is good at destroying bad players, but doesn't feel it has the steam to compete at high level play. Which is remarkably similar to what a few people said was the case in this thread, but were shouted down for it, by you guessed it - bad players.
I'd like to post these quotes from him, which are pretty darn relevant to the topic.
Nick Rose wrote:I am panning this codex. I think it has a lot of flavor but the output and the way it plays isn’t going to make it pass the mid tier. On top level games it will flop. In short you can beat people who will leave gaps and spots open naturally. The problem is is creates a lot of gotcha moments which makes people upset.
At the top level people screen out even at 3 inches or 9 inches and you don’t have the durability or models to fight it out. On top of it your match ups are not great as you are stuck between horde vs mech and can’t do either well.
Nick Rose wrote:You take units bit by bit and they seem good but when you start combing or moving things together it doesn’t work well or at all.
Whether or not you agree with Nick, I think this thread serves an excellent example of why calling for nerfs and describing yourself a balance expert on units weeks before a model has been released, without even having PLAYED that unit, is a really low level mentality, that is only holding you back. Top players, winners of international tournaments, people with multiple games experience of the dex already, told us THEY weren't able to know where things stand or how well they could be dealt with just yet, without playing them first. If you think you were somehow able to do it where they weren't it, just by taking a lot at the datasheet for a model, this hopefully shows you exactly how much of the puzzle you are missing in your evaluations. Some of you need to start leveling up your own play, instead of complaining for GW to level down other people's. Almost all playable armies have something strong they can do, and GSC have some very pointed weaknesses to go along with it. Kelermorph didn't even up being the top unit in the dex.
The impact of the army as a whole has no bearing on whether the Kelermorph is too cheap for what he offers. This is off topic.
Also, here in the real world, GSC are winning events and placing high.
Nick Rose is somewhat famous for his.....zealous....feelings about GSC. I don't trust his opinion, particularly given his comments pre codex (that were patently false).
The impact of the army totally has bearing on whether a unit is over/under costed or not. You can’t balance in a vacuum. If something is powerful but the rest of an army isn’t, and thus the powerful thing isn’t played, what is the problem?
SHUPPET wrote: Whether or not you agree with Nick, I think this thread serves an excellent example of why calling for nerfs and describing yourself a balance expert on units weeks before a model has been released, without even having PLAYED that unit...
Agreed that you should play with a unit before decisively panning it.
As for results - GSC placed 2nd ain this years GT. Kellermorph was in the list.
A quick google for GSCGT results brought up three more lists for March - Kellermorph in each and every one (2 2nd places and a 5th place).
An Actual Englishman wrote: The impact of the army as a whole has no bearing on whether the Kelermorph is too cheap for what he offers. This is off topic.
Also, here in the real world, GSC are winning events and placing high.
Nick Rose is somewhat famous for his.....zealous....feelings about GSC. I don't trust his opinion, particularly given his comments pre codex (that were patently false).
His post was talking about the Kelermorph. I actually weighed up whether to post it here or the more generalised "GSC IS BROKE lets boycott" thread that was doing the rounds at the same time, and deemed it to be most relevant here. It's not important, both threads mostly boiled down to the exact same complaint of Kelermorph wrecking everything, so it's whatever .
I don't see how you can say their placings are irrelevant to whether the Kelermorph is too cheap or not for what it does. Different armies CAN have different strengths, if GSC having a cheap option to nuke characters was too much this would be reflected in their results. If it really is as strong as you claim, It clearly is a strength that is more than balanced out by the races downsides. Regardless, it's not really as strong as you claimed at all, turns out it's a cheap character but also an easy to screen gimmick that high level players are dealing with without a stumble.
They haven't had a single week where they've done better than even Tau, and being that Tau aren't even a top 3 faction, I don't think it's fair to imply GSC have come down and been some broken faction, just as a playable one. Kelermorph costs chips, and still wasn't even played in all the lists that DID place. But now that I've said this sentence I realise you probably were saying it was doing better than what Nick Rose's comment would imply, in which case fair enough, they have been able to compete in the events we've seen so far. However, I think what Nick Rose is referring to is top tables at a GT when he will be against serious opponents of his own caliber, ones that learn every match up, and this is where everyone who plays GSC against the same opponent over and over has probably seen, that the army starts to fall apart. There is so many options for counter play that the gimmicks the army relies on becomes a bit of a liability. I don't think the statements are too unfair for his level of play, but time will tell how they do at the next serious event or two.
What statements did he make that you're referring to, and can I get quotes? I might have missed them, but maybe we interpreted them differently.
If i'm reading that chart correctly the nid/gsc faction is ahead of everything except for ynnari soup, (with the tau as by far the best mono faction). In fact they seem to have the best average performance of any faction, just losing out to ynnari and knight soup for the top scores.
The Kelermorph has appeared in every GT-level GSC list i've seen so far this month, but to be fair that's not many lists. It's not a widely played faction.
SHUPPET wrote: His post was talking about the Kelermorph. I actually weighed up whether to post it here or the more generalised "GSC IS BROKE lets boycott" thread that was doing the rounds at the same time, and deemed it to be most relevant here. It's not important, both threads mostly boiled down to the exact same complaint of Kelermorph wrecking everything, so it's whatever .
I don't see how you can say their placings are irrelevant to whether the Kelermorph is too cheap or not for what it does. Different armies CAN have different strengths, if GSC having a cheap option to nuke characters was too much this would be reflected in their results. If it really is as strong as you claim, It clearly is a strength that is more than balanced out by the races downsides. Regardless, it's not really as strong as you claimed at all, turns out it's a cheap character but also an easy to screen gimmick that high level players are dealing with without a stumble.
It's not obvious from the quotations that he is discussing the Kelermorph specifically at all. I was going to ask why you didn't post this in the general GSC is busted thread to be honest because it seems more relevant there. I don't think both threads boiled down to a discussion only around the Kelermorph. Obviously this thread did because of the title, but I recall many other synergies discussed in the other thread. The insta-kill any unit in the game psychic power shenanigans, the hand flamer acs, the psychic sniper, the demo charge bikes etc etc It's not particularly important though.
A unit can still be too cheap in an army that is otherwise underpowered. One OP character does not an OP army make, particularly given the current constraints of the game (rule of 3). Similarly a faction can have awful characters (DE, generally) and still be extremely competitive. Regarding the power of the Keler specifically, it seems to feature in many competitive lists, as shown by A.T above (and that implies that it is a competitive/very well costed choice). Personally I think units that fulfil similar roles should be balanced against each other externally. So the Keler should be balanced against other character killers, which it probably is given the new changes to the Assassins, but this discussion predates that (and I think they are also a bit much).
They haven't had a single week where they've done better than even Tau, and being that Tau aren't even a top 3 faction, I don't think it's fair to imply GSC have come down and been some broken faction, just as a playable one. Kelermorph costs chips, and still wasn't even played in all the lists that DID place. But now that I've said this sentence I realise you probably were saying it was doing better than what Nick Rose's comment would imply, in which case fair enough, they have been able to compete in the events we've seen so far. However, I think what Nick Rose is referring to is top tables at a GT when he will be against serious opponents of his own caliber, ones that learn every match up, and this is where everyone who plays GSC against the same opponent over and over has probably seen, that the army starts to fall apart. There is so many options for counter play that the gimmicks the army relies on becomes a bit of a liability. I don't think the statements are too unfair for his level of play, but time will tell how they do at the next serious event or two.
What statements did he make that you're referring to, and can I get quotes? I might have missed them, but maybe we interpreted them differently.
Tau are very good at the moment. They are the top mono I think currently and definitely the top xeno dex. There aren't many armies that compete against them as things stand.
You're spot on with your interpretation of my comment re success - it was against Nick's quotation.
You might be spot on with regards your analysis of GSC and their gimmicks, in which case I have sympathy because that is much the same as the Orks' issue IMO. As you say time will tell, we haven't seen the top players really bring their best lists out to play yet and the season hasn't really started proper.
I can't remember the exact quotations for Nick off hand, I remember Geoff mentioning them (I think on Chapter Tactics and his GSC codex review - but I might be wrong, he's on so many podcasts) though. You've probably heard him give an appraisal of Nick - you said you listen to Geoff quite a bit?
There's no need to bring this topic up again, if the Keler turns out not to be as strong as many (including myself) thought just be happy knowing that you were right. It's probably too early to tell in all honesty and meta changes are happening so fast it's becoming hard to keep up. People are still discussing the LVO meta like it's relevant. Or discussing Marines like they don't have bolter rules.
Got my first game this weekend against a GSC player. First time playing GSC at all and I lost and know I did some horrible mistakes. I would say the codex is good, but I am waiting to play more games before I'll even venture saying the word "OP".
The only thing I disliked about the GSC and imagine will be FAQ'd is the instakill psychic power(Mental Onslaught). Although it does require a lot of setup for the instakill it is rather strong considering its range is 18 inches and not limited to nearest model like most MW generating powers.
Everything else in the codex feels like can be countered with better screening.
Like the vast majority of 40K player on this forum or anywhere else, I am not a top level tournament player and the games I play are not at the bleeding edge of the meta.
The fact that every GC cult player I've spoken too, read about or listened to talks about the Kelermorph being an auto take unit likely points to it being undercosted for the abilities it brings.
In an ideal world all units would be equally viable and there would be no autotakes or unusable units, unfortunately there are.
This doesn't change the point of this thread which was the kelermorph is over powered for the points you pay. As many of us pointed out in the more reasoned parts of this thread, even if he is half the cost he should be that would only be a 2.5% points gain in a standard 2000pt which would have minimal to zero effect on a game but that doesn't change the fact he is incredible for his cost.
What it does show is that GW has done a bad job evaluating his cost and it would appear they have done a similarly bad job of costing various other things in the book. I don't play them but looking through the book the internal balance seems way off with various things being super cheap for their effects and then others being aimed far too high.
Not all codexs have to come out at the top line of the meta and some take a little time to settle in and for players to work them out. The Ork book came out and people cried that it was OP, then it didn't win LVO and there are now various threads saying how it should be buffed, then some new builds have risen to the surface and its started doing well again. Its like its a complex game or something ;-)
If i'm reading that chart correctly the nid/gsc faction is ahead of everything except for ynnari soup, (with the tau as by far the best mono faction). In fact they seem to have the best average performance of any faction, just losing out to ynnari and knight soup for the top scores.
The Kelermorph has appeared in every GT-level GSC list i've seen so far this month, but to be fair that's not many lists. It's not a widely played faction.
You're reading that incorrectly. That is a list of the 20 MOST COMMON faction combinations, for starters, so that excludes a lot of things. Hence why Marines for example are on there twice, but Harlequins don't even appear. Secondly, even by on this chart, GSC appear once, in soup with Nids and AM, and place at #12th most successful combination, out of the 20th most popular combinations taken on the day. It's a weird chart that isn't really a great place to draw any direct conclusions of anything.
I've literally seen zero coverage on the Warhammer GT. Wasn't even aware of the results. 1750pts, Eternal War missions, and WARHAMMER WORLD boards is just a completely different game to the one we all play competitively. I am however interested in the results and the lists and can't find anyone anywhere who has cared enough to post them, where can I see them other than BCP (don't have it at atm)?
Dustin Hershaw took 2nd at the 7th Annual Barrie Bash (A 62 player major) and didn't take a Kelermorph. Pretty sure there was another placing last month too that did the same and something else in here too.
SHUPPET wrote: Secondly, even by on this chart, GSC appear once, in soup with Nids and AM, and place at #12th most successful combination, out of the 20th most popular combinations taken on the day. It's a weird chart that isn't really a great place to draw any direct conclusions of anything.
The order of the factions are based on the highest position, while the bars indicate the range of finishes and the line across the bar represents the average position.
The chart indicates that the 11 faction combinations above the GSC/soup have won more events, but that the average position of GSC/soup players has been better. As someone summarised in the link an average player is more likely to place well with a GSC/soup, but the top spot has been elusive so far. Early days I suppose.
SHUPPET wrote: I've literally seen zero coverage on the Warhammer GT / I am however interested in the results and the lists and can't find anyone anywhere who has cared enough to post them
https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/773018.page#10385478
1st place tau - tons of missiles, piranhas and drone abuse to screen a broadside/riptide firebase. Apparently got very lucky in their game against the Aeldari in the semi
2nd place GSC - Patriarch, Primus, Magus, Jackal Alphus, Abominant. 4 x Neophyte units, 2 x acolyte units. 2 sentinels, Jackals. Aberants, Kellermorph, Nexos, Clamivus. 3 mortar squads.
3rd place - Aeldari flyer spam
4th place - Smash captains, Guilliman, Tigurius, various primaris
Aeldari, Imperium, and Chaos soups round out the top 8
It's not obvious from the quotations that he is discussing the Kelermorph specifically at all. I was going to ask why you didn't post this in the general GSC is busted thread to be honest because it seems more relevant there. I don't think both threads boiled down to a discussion only around the Kelermorph. Obviously this thread did because of the title, but I recall many other synergies discussed in the other thread. The insta-kill any unit in the game psychic power shenanigans, the hand flamer acs, the psychic sniper, the demo charge bikes etc etc It's not particularly important though.
That's fair enough and my bad. Maybe I should have used the other thread, I just wanted to look back at the key topic, might have picked the wrong thread to bring back.
An Actual Englishman wrote: Regarding the power of the Keler specifically, it seems to feature in many competitive lists, as shown by A.T above (and that implies that it is a competitive/very well costed choice).
I don't think this is the best measure of what's OP. It shows in less lists than the Patriach, in those lists it shows less times than the Patriach with at least one winner taking double Daddys, and has much less points spent on it than the Patriach. The army has strong units man. It's also has other aspects that detract from these strong units. I think this is fun design that gives it unique flavor. They are balanced with these good units, if you nerf the good gak you are just left with a glass cannon that has no cannon. Every Tyranid list is taking Genestealers, should they be nerfed too? Every Ultramarine list is taking Devastators, do we need to nerf them too? It's okay for some units to be staples in list archetypes.
Tau are very good at the moment. They are the top mono I think currently and definitely the top xeno dex. There aren't many armies that compete against them as things stand.
You're spot on with your interpretation of my comment re success - it was against Nick's quotation.
You might be spot on with regards your analysis of GSC and their gimmicks, in which case I have sympathy because that is much the same as the Orks' issue IMO. As you say time will tell, we haven't seen the top players really bring their best lists out to play yet and the season hasn't really started proper.
Orkz is probably a good comparison, both are army's with big strengths, pulled back down to sensibility by big weaknesses, and both armies didn't do anywhere near as good as the internet Hive Mind thought. though honestly, I think GSC are better than Orkz right now in their current state.
Sure, Tau are real good, but they aren't Aeldari / Imperium good, and I think in this game, GSC being even below Tau's level just shows that they aren't busted - simply a good choice currently (though we'll see how far they can actually be pushed against the best players in time)
An Actual Englishman wrote: You've probably heard him give an appraisal of Nick - you said you listen to Geoff quite a bit?
I listened to him while he was leaking gak about a dex I care about every odd week, I stopped listening to them after GSC dex was leaked though. I can't say you're wrong about what you heard, but I can also say that this is definitely not the reputation I've ever witnessed Nick Rose having. And I can't really either dispute nor be convinced by your words here until I see more, is all.
An Actual Englishman wrote: There's no need to bring this topic up again, if the Keler turns out not to be as strong as many (including myself) thought just be happy knowing that you were right. It's probably too early to tell in all honesty and meta changes are happening so fast it's becoming hard to keep up. People are still discussing the LVO meta like it's relevant. Or discussing Marines like they don't have bolter rules.
I think if Kelermorph turns out to be a strong unit but a fair one, it should really serve as a lesson to ANYONE in this thread who said the unit needed to be nerfed, based off a dataslate. A LOT of people said the unit is going to give you a lot of ways to play around it, and probably bring the sort of offense to the table that a paperthin army like GSC will need just to play its game, and by all accounts this is pretty much exactly the case. But this isn't just a "I was right" necro, I think it's a relevant topic of discussion to look back at some VERY confident predictions that were made, and talk about where this dex and units actually stand today.
An Actual Englishman wrote: You want me to tell you how you get 10 ppm 2W, T4 -1 to hit bikes too? Or the Ridge runner?
Having played both of these a few times now, they're both annoyances not actual threats. Ridge Runner hits on 5+ if you have to move it, if you didn't have to move it it's not firing at anything that can't immediately nuke it off the board. Bikes, for all they are, have the offense of neophytes, Acolytes for a turn if you give them demo charges. If you're against marines they're marginally more survivable than the same points in neophytes, but since they run down the table so quick they're a higher priority target.
That said, I have started winning with them, you just have to play points, and charge onto those objectives with your ambushing objective secured that probably outnumbers the defenders in the first place. Couple reserve neophyte squads to replace losses on one point or another, and if need be return a set to the shadows and drop them down with lying in wait once you chase them off the point with some acolytes. And help this all along by throwing a bunch of distractions at them across the table in the form of ridge runners, trucks and whatever else helps spread the threat so your troops can get in place.
SHUPPET wrote: I think if Kelermorph turns out to be a strong unit but a fair one, it should really serve as a lesson to ANYONE in this thread who said the unit needed to be nerfed, based off a dataslate. A LOT of people said the unit is going to give you a lot of ways to play around it, and probably bring the sort of offense to the table that a paperthin army like GSC will need just to play its game, and by all accounts this is pretty much exactly the case. But this isn't just a "I was right" necro, I think it's a relevant topic of discussion to look back at some VERY confident predictions that were made, and talk about where this dex and units actually stand today.
I much prefer discussing things with you when you're chill like this.
It will serve to a lesson to some for sure, myself included. Not likely the majority but I will take it on the chin if the Keler isn't the OPMOFO I thought it'd be. We all make mistakes and sometimes we all overreact.
Remember however, that in my totally biased and Ork-centric brain, anything "stronger" than the Ork dex is, without question, OP as all feth!
SHUPPET wrote: Secondly, even by on this chart, GSC appear once, in soup with Nids and AM, and place at #12th most successful combination, out of the 20th most popular combinations taken on the day. It's a weird chart that isn't really a great place to draw any direct conclusions of anything.
The order of the factions are based on the highest position, while the bars indicate the range of finishes and the line across the bar represents the average position.
The chart indicates that the 11 faction combinations above the GSC/soup have won more events, but that the average position of GSC/soup players has been better. As someone summarised in the link an average player is more likely to place well with a GSC/soup, but the top spot has been elusive so far. Early days I suppose.
Looking at anything other than wins is not a solid measure of who is the strongest. Having a higher "average" win rate just means there is less trash players dragging it down, and with an army like GSC, that makes perfect sense that there is mostly good players on the Keyword. Until they are actually kicking ass and winning more events with those players, I don't think it's at all fair to say that those numbers put them as the #2 faction after Ynnari, placing them even above Imperium simply because there is less baddies to drag down the overall average like there is with a super popular army like Knights + Guard (who are obviously one of the best in the game right now no matter what their "average" is). And that's even if it was based on a better data set than "Top 20 popular combinations".
SHUPPET wrote: I've literally seen zero coverage on the Warhammer GT / I am however interested in the results and the lists and can't find anyone anywhere who has cared enough to post them
https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/773018.page#10385478
1st place tau - tons of missiles, piranhas and drone abuse to screen a broadside/riptide firebase. Apparently got very lucky in their game against the Aeldari in the semi
2nd place GSC - Patriarch, Primus, Magus, Jackal Alphus, Abominant. 4 x Neophyte units, 2 x acolyte units. 2 sentinels, Jackals. Aberants, Kellermorph, Nexos, Clamivus. 3 mortar squads.
3rd place - Aeldari flyer spam
4th place - Smash captains, Guilliman, Tigurius, various primaris
Aeldari, Imperium, and Chaos soups round out the top 8
Thanks. Can I see the exact lists anywhere?
This is off-topic, but my reactions to those results: Not surprised to see that the Tau spammed Missiles and drones and did well at Warhammer World. That's a winning combination, and Tau are in the best shape they've been in 8th already too.
That guy took every single character in the GSC dex? lol. Surely that's not a good measure of Kelermorph being OP? He even took the Jackal Alphus and the Abominant haha.
SHUPPET wrote: I think if Kelermorph turns out to be a strong unit but a fair one, it should really serve as a lesson to ANYONE in this thread who said the unit needed to be nerfed, based off a dataslate. A LOT of people said the unit is going to give you a lot of ways to play around it, and probably bring the sort of offense to the table that a paperthin army like GSC will need just to play its game, and by all accounts this is pretty much exactly the case. But this isn't just a "I was right" necro, I think it's a relevant topic of discussion to look back at some VERY confident predictions that were made, and talk about where this dex and units actually stand today.
I much prefer discussing things with you when you're chill like this.
It will serve to a lesson to some for sure, myself included. Not likely the majority but I will take it on the chin if the Keler isn't the OPMOFO I thought it'd be. We all make mistakes and sometimes we all overreact.
Remember however, that in my totally biased and Ork-centric brain, anything "stronger" than the Ork dex is, without question, OP as all feth!
Exactly the same to you. I got to say given our past interactions I wasn't expecting this level of chill, but maybe that's something else that we can both learn from today as well.
I'm not closed to the possibility of Keler being too much, and I also wasn't on release, though I suspected it would be fine. However, I was closed to the idea that we can recognise stuff as being busted so soon. Maybe in the most extreme cases, where you can already see how one unit can fill out and entire list, but in the case of something so small and gimmicky as Kelermorph, I mean what's worse case scenario (and this is purely hypothetical)? Say he's undercosted by like 50 pts, and then what? It gives the army a strong unit that you still probably don't want to be taking more than one of due to army and game design, and gives the army a pointed strength to make up for some very real weaknesses. I can understand a split in opinion on game design here, but I'm all for some armies having some units that are undercosted for for what they do if they are measured out in other ways - Solitaire is another obvious example of this.
SHUPPET wrote: Thanks. Can I see the exact lists anywhere?
All I can add to the lists in the linked post is that the tau player had burst cannons and missiles on his piranhas. The event didn't collate lists so this was taken from reddit posts and similar of players and those who watched some of the games.
SHUPPET wrote: So, 3 months into the release of the codex, and GSCsomehow didn't manage to dominate, or even significantly change the meta like DE or Knights were able to in half that time, so I thought I would take another look at this thread.
Knights are easy to use and capable of being added to over half the game's armies so it's little wonder there. Adepticon is the first real crack at the meta for GSC.
Do I still think GSC are going to be a problem? Not after the assassins release and the further introduction of deepstrike spreading units. And certainly not while the Castellan is on its pedestal.
Yeah... my inner pedantry is saying GSC have been out for barely 6 weeks rather than 3 months and they are already placing in tournaments.
I don't know if that means they are going to meaningfully change the meta - but its hard to see why the competitive scene went "Orks are going to be big news guys!" is now justified in saying "GSC are rubbish, won't even break mid tier".
I can understand the potential view that GSC are a win big/lose big army - which might not be the best in a "you need to 6 games to win the tournament" format, its potentially not odds on to edge out those close games in the way Imperial and especially Ynnari lists are.
But I think Tau tend to be in a similar boat - and they seem to be doing great.
Tyel wrote: Yeah... my inner pedantry is saying GSC have been out for barely 6 weeks rather than 3 months and they are already placing in tournaments.
I don't know if that means they are going to meaningfully change the meta - but its hard to see why the competitive scene went "Orks are going to be big news guys!" is now justified in saying "GSC are rubbish, won't even break mid tier".
I can understand the potential view that GSC are a win big/lose big army - which might not be the best in a "you need to 6 games to win the tournament" format, its potentially not odds on to edge out those close games in the way Imperial and especially Ynnari lists are.
But I think Tau tend to be in a similar boat - and they seem to be doing great.
Probably because they learned their lesson from orks....
My prediction is that the new vanguard marines are going to be such an easy, cheap cockblock for imperial soup players to bring to shut down GSC, Orks and Smashcaptains that we won't see a whole lot of any of those and it'll just be the usual souplejerk in the top 10.
But, I may be surprised! I hope I am to be honest this meta has gotten as stale as competitive 5th at this point.
the_scotsman wrote: Probably because they learned their lesson from orks....
My prediction is that the new vanguard marines are going to be such an easy, cheap cockblock for imperial soup players to bring to shut down GSC, Orks and Smashcaptains that we won't see a whole lot of any of those and it'll just be the usual souplejerk in the top 10.
But, I may be surprised! I hope I am to be honest this meta has gotten as stale as competitive 5th at this point.
All things in tweaking. Sticking in a Vanguard Marine detachment means you can't run an optimised brigade of IG.
Same with slotting in say a DW detachment and just gunning deep strikers down.
Not to say it isn't or won't be effective - but it might not be optimal (versus say regular IG Brigade+Castelan for instance).
I agree with you about the meta though. Was hoping for big changes in the FAQs, then CA. Didn't happen. Hoping Ynnari get sorted soon, and then something is done about Soup. Not holding out much hope though.
What was that Shuppet, not shooting at screens with him?
picking the fight.