What is your first impression? Looks pretty strong to me with potential 24(!) damage per shooting phase that ignores character screening, buffing nearby Infantry and improving Cult Ambushes.
Not bad. Does an average of 6 damage to a Marine statline. That's enough to drop most marine characters, so if he gets a good ambush roll and the enemy isn't properly screened that's quite nasty. You can't screen to stop character targeting as such, I mean simply keeping him out of range.
Might be something you hold for an extra turn until you see a gap in your opponent's defenses to exploit.
He seems cool. Plus an awesome model. While I'm not interested in GSC as a full army (too pricey and I'm not a big fan of space hillbilly despite loving their fluff), I'm most likely picking up their kill team with this guy in it.
His kit is solid. Obviously we can't say if he's really viable until we see points, but he has potential. I'll definitely get him anyway, love the model.
He's all but guaranteed an assassination and with +3 to ambush there are few places to hide. If the table stays the same and he gets a 5 (2+, basically) then he gets to shoot twice. If he gets a 6 then there is nowhere you can hide while also keeping troops in bubble range.
He could knock down 3 company commanders pretty easily. This guy needs to be north of 150 points at least unless there are big changes to ambush.
Cool models and rules but something just bothers me that a revolver has a better gun profile than the mini-rpg that is the holy bolter but that's a separate topic.
He's all but guaranteed an assassination and with +3 to ambush there are few places to hide. If the table stays the same and he gets a 5 (2+, basically) then he gets to shoot twice. If he gets a 6 then there is nowhere you can hide while also keeping troops in bubble range.
He could knock down 3 company commanders pretty easily. This guy needs to be north of 150 points at least unless there are big changes to ambush.
I think you're underestimating how easy it is to screen out 12" from your characters for a lot of armies. I agree he's good, but that 12" range is a very real limitation.
I expect him to be 70 or so points. He won't cost more than an Assassin imo.
He seems very to be a very strong character assassin, much more reliable than any of the actual assassins. His points cost is gonna have to be 100+ or he will be an auto take just because he will be near guaranteed to make his points back. The pistol seems a bit much with 2x dam 2 shot with three of them.
JohnnyHell wrote: I like the bit where autostub pistols are killier than Bolters.
Can't wait to read the lore on those guns, the fact that they are stubbers raises a lot of questions about the supposed power of 40k battlefield weapons and armour.
JohnnyHell wrote:I like the bit where autostub pistols are killier than Bolters.
Torquar wrote:Can't wait to read the lore on those guns, the fact that they are stubbers raises a lot of questions about the supposed power of 40k battlefield weapons and armour.
Maybe it's just an abstract representation of the kelermorph's skill with a pistol, since simply hitting on a 2+ (the game's only statistical representation of the shooter) doesn't have the desired effect, and just giving the weapon a better profile is better than throwing on additional special rules.
If everything has to be hyper-literal, maybe they're heavy stubber caliber with special armor-piercing ammunition.
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WisdomLS wrote: The pistol seems a bit much with 2x dam 2 shot with three of them.
Don't miss that the Gunslinger rule also provides bonus shots. Looks like on average that's 9.17 S4 AP-1 D2 hits. That's pretty nasty.
He's all but guaranteed an assassination and with +3 to ambush there are few places to hide. If the table stays the same and he gets a 5 (2+, basically) then he gets to shoot twice. If he gets a 6 then there is nowhere you can hide while also keeping troops in bubble range.
He could knock down 3 company commanders pretty easily. This guy needs to be north of 150 points at least unless there are big changes to ambush.
I think you're underestimating how easy it is to screen out 12" from your characters for a lot of armies. I agree he's good, but that 12" range is a very real limitation.
I expect him to be 70 or so points. He won't cost more than an Assassin imo.
He gets a 6 66% of the time. That means he's 9" away from the front and moves 6". The guns are 12". That is effectively an 18" bubble from the front line. There is no distance where you are safe and also providing a bubble to troops unless you're strung out so badly as to be ineffective anyway.
He's all but guaranteed an assassination and with +3 to ambush there are few places to hide. If the table stays the same and he gets a 5 (2+, basically) then he gets to shoot twice. If he gets a 6 then there is nowhere you can hide while also keeping troops in bubble range.
He could knock down 3 company commanders pretty easily. This guy needs to be north of 150 points at least unless there are big changes to ambush.
I think you're underestimating how easy it is to screen out 12" from your characters for a lot of armies. I agree he's good, but that 12" range is a very real limitation.
I expect him to be 70 or so points. He won't cost more than an Assassin imo.
He gets a 6 66% of the time. That means he's 9" away from the front and moves 6". The guns are 12". That is effectively an 18" bubble from the front line. There is no distance where you are safe and also providing a bubble to troops unless you're strung out so badly as to be ineffective anyway.
That's not true. So after your move you are (just over) 3" from the screen. The character could easily be 9" away still. There's no space in there for you to deepsteike in.
Granted, it does make your opponent think more about deployment, but cults will do that anyway.
Again, I do think he's very good. I just think you're overselling it a little.
Maybe I missed it in the previews, but do we know if the Ambush chart has changed at all? There are a lot of assumptions here based on the chart so if that's changed a lot of those assumptions may not be valid.
Slipspace wrote: Maybe I missed it in the previews, but do we know if the Ambush chart has changed at all? There are a lot of assumptions here based on the chart so if that's changed a lot of those assumptions may not be valid.
I'm not aware of any leak/reveal no. There was a leak of warlord traits but we're pretty sure it was fake.
I may have imagined it, but I thought GW made some comments about it when the Deepstrike rules changed, saying they would change the table to bring it into line with the new rules. If that's the case I wouldn't start making plans for some of these units until we know more!
Slipspace wrote: Maybe I missed it in the previews, but do we know if the Ambush chart has changed at all? There are a lot of assumptions here based on the chart so if that's changed a lot of those assumptions may not be valid.
It wasn't during these reveals--there was credible reports from the recent New Year's Open Day though of the mechanisms changing.
Maybe he fires magic bullets, the gun can suck if it is loaded with mini nuke ammo. Good thing is that he doesn't ignore cover. It will come down to how much he costs. Under 100pts he will be auto pick under 80pts people will spam him, but if he is 150 I doubt people will use more then 1.
The fact that an autostub pistol is ridiculously superior to the average boltgun tells you a lot about power creep in an edition.
Earlier in the edition someone laughed at me for mentioning power creep. I don't think they are laughing anymore. This dude with double revolvers outshoots Calgar with a unique relic of the imperium. The dude holding 2 big revolvers....
Slipspace wrote: I may have imagined it, but I thought GW made some comments about it when the Deepstrike rules changed, saying they would change the table to bring it into line with the new rules. If that's the case I wouldn't start making plans for some of these units until we know more!
They did say something about Ambush changing to factor in the new Tactical Reserves rule actually. They didn't say anything about how, and given GW logic I wouldn't assume much from it!
Once again, a really powerful character...more than the designers probably realized because they did it for the lulz. If you can take more than one of these in your army, prepare to see them nonstop in every single army, every game.
I want to see his point cost before I really comment on him, but he's a trend that I really wish the game would move away from, hyper lethal options. Depending on how the new GSC chart works, he can basically pop up and one shot most characters or a small squad. The game needs less of that not more.
This guy outperforms most full squads with sniper rules (scouts, deathmarks, etc.) And presumably has character himself, so he's often going to be harder to take out first. If he's under 100pts, it's gonna get crazy.
HoundsofDemos wrote: I want to see his point cost before I really comment on him, but he's a trend that I really wish the game would move away from, hyper lethal options. Depending on how the new GSC chart works, he can basically pop up and one shot most characters or a small squad. The game needs less of that not more.
He's very rarely going to be killing squads. On average he kills 3 MEQ. The fact those 3 can be Primaris is pretty strong though.
HoundsofDemos wrote: I want to see his point cost before I really comment on him, but he's a trend that I really wish the game would move away from, hyper lethal options. Depending on how the new GSC chart works, he can basically pop up and one shot most characters or a small squad. The game needs less of that not more.
He's very rarely going to be killing squads. On average he kills 3 MEQ. The fact those 3 can be Primaris is pretty strong though.
The point cost will determine everything still.
3 MEQs is more than a lot of troop squads can kill in a turn.
Are we sure that he actually has 3 pistols, and that the Pistol 2 profile isn't meant to represent all 3?
I'd say getting a codex late would help you, but look at Space Wolves. They got one of the last codexes of 2018 and it is absolute bottom tier, and to make matters worse, they were too close to the CA cutoff and didn't get any much needed balance improvements (for example, a Frost Axe is 10 points versus a PFist which is 9).
I predict this guy will be OP and outrageous unless he costs an absolute ton of points. Stupid pistols doing 2 damage (wtf?) aside he has 6 shots that explode into more shots that hit on 2s for around 8-9 ish hits at s4 -1 2 damage. With +3 to the table (assuming it stays the same) he can shoot TWICE on a 2+. He will MURDER most characters he shoots and just annihilate the enemy command structure. Take 3 of him and just screw over enemy characters or just do tons of damage with volume of fire with his rediculous 2 damage guns.
Ok now the rant part on the guns. Why are his pistols more deadly than master crafted marine boltguns? Why are his generic ass STUBBER pistols as deadly as marine RELIC bolters!?
I'd say getting a codex late would help you, but look at Space Wolves. They got one of the last codexes of 2018 and it is absolute bottom tier, and to make matters worse, they were too close to the CA cutoff and didn't get any much needed balance improvements (for example, a Frost Axe is 10 points versus a PFist which is 9).
I'd say getting a codex late would help you, but look at Space Wolves. They got one of the last codexes of 2018 and it is absolute bottom tier, and to make matters worse, they were too close to the CA cutoff and didn't get any much needed balance improvements (for example, a Frost Axe is 10 points versus a PFist which is 9).
There's certainly been a fair amount of power creep this edition. If you're playing an army that doesn't get as many updates you'll end up quickly outgunned by other factions. Space Wolves though seem to be more attributed to Games Workshop's inconsistent balancing that's been plaguing 8th edition for months.
JNAProductions wrote: Assuming the table stays the same, he shoots twice on a 2. Not a 2+, just a 2.
What? He gets an extra shot for every hit, it doesn't mention needing a specific number in the rule.
The GSC table gives you the ability to shoot or move 1d6" on a roll of a 5.
That's what I'm referring to.
Oh right. I thought you were refering to his extra shots on a hit, which is normally a 2+.
Actually, doesn't that mean that a natural 4+ does nothing? Because the table has no result for a 7/8/9 and no rule telling you to treat it as something else?
JNAProductions wrote: Assuming the table stays the same, he shoots twice on a 2. Not a 2+, just a 2.
What? He gets an extra shot for every hit, it doesn't mention needing a specific number in the rule.
The GSC table gives you the ability to shoot or move 1d6" on a roll of a 5.
That's what I'm referring to.
Oh right. I thought you were refering to his extra shots on a hit, which is normally a 2+.
Actually, doesn't that mean that a natural 4+ does nothing? Because the table has no result for a 7/8/9 and no rule telling you to treat it as something else?
I would hope GW will have a 6+ or 7+ result for the Codex.
I've always wanted a hybrid gunslinger; I actually made a squad of hybrids called the Cowboys from Hell (Pantera fans?). They were based on the cheap hybrids that came with the Genestealer expansion set for the original Space Hulk, so they were kinda hokey- I don't even think I still have the models.
This thing is pretty cool. Sometimes it feels like GW is reading my mind. I do hope they cost it appropriately though; I'm starting a Cult, and I don't want to be the guy who plays the model that breaks the game, even if it is a model I've wanted since 1989.
I think they made this guy such a mobile firing platform so that his hybrid screen troops don't need to be shooty. He can soften the target before the hybrids charge; alternately, the hybrids tarpit would be hand to hand troop at a distance and he walks in and wastes them in the following turn.
JNAProductions wrote: Assuming the table stays the same, he shoots twice on a 2. Not a 2+, just a 2.
What? He gets an extra shot for every hit, it doesn't mention needing a specific number in the rule.
The GSC table gives you the ability to shoot or move 1d6" on a roll of a 5.
That's what I'm referring to.
Oh right. I thought you were refering to his extra shots on a hit, which is normally a 2+.
Actually, doesn't that mean that a natural 4+ does nothing? Because the table has no result for a 7/8/9 and no rule telling you to treat it as something else?
I would hope GW will have a 6+ or 7+ result for the Codex.
We'll see! If not, it'll be FAQ'd rapidly I would think.
It always bothered me that random cultists with scavenged gear and converted mining hardware had better gear/stats then the best the IoM could produce.
Nevelon wrote: It always bothered me that random cultists with scavenged gear and converted mining hardware had better gear/stats then the best the IoM could produce.
Maybe the IoM cares more about the gathering of resources than it cares for human soldiers. Plausible.
Or, mining equipment is privately owned and quietly improved upon, tech-wise, while the equipment of the imperial army is burdened by layers of incompetent bureaucracy. Also plausible.
Or, the STCs just happened to spit out some super blueprints for mining equipment, and less fancy weapons. Take your pick.
I'd say getting a codex late would help you, but look at Space Wolves. They got one of the last codexes of 2018 and it is absolute bottom tier, and to make matters worse, they were too close to the CA cutoff and didn't get any much needed balance improvements (for example, a Frost Axe is 10 points versus a PFist which is 9).
Not really seeing it.
Especially not if this guy is properly costed. Does he offer a new dynamic to worry about? Sure. Will it have drawbacks? Considering they pulled the book and their ability to ambush turn 1 I'd count on it.
Do I think he is strong and will be spammed? Absolutely.
Are knights power creep without IG?
Are DE power creep without doom?
Necrons certainly werent. Or SW.
I think Orks are great, but certainly not creep.
Custodes are all but a distant memory.
That factions get special places they shine isn't really power creep.
At 50 points he's borderline broken. If he's say 100 points hes okay. If hes say 150 he's rubbish.
Its another "D2 for the lols" but GW seem desperate to make Primaris (and friends) non-viable for reasons that continue to elude me.
100 points for a that fething damage output is OKAY?
He better be 150 at least.
150 points for a W4 T3 5+ character?
I'm sorry, but I'd rather not have 150 points go "Poof" the moment any sniper looks funny at them.
For reference, a squad of 5 Sniper Scouts put out 1.48 regular wounds after saves and .56 mortals, with no buffs. Or, a 10 man Sniper Scout squad kills him. With no buffs-and they're 1) Marines, which means they have a million and one buffs, and 2) generally considered a bad unit, but they get 100% returns if he's 150 points.
Quickjager wrote: A 150 point character with the ability to kill a character more reliably than any of the ACTUAL assassins we already have? And buff?
Dude, Sniper Scouts don't get to take potshots at characters.
Notice how Imperial Assassins are T4, W5 (W6 on the Eversor), and have a 4+ invuln.
I'm not saying the Kelermorph should be cheaper than them-he's got more killing power, but a lot less ability to survive, which is arguably an even tradeoff-but he should not be 150 points.
Quickjager wrote: Pray tell how many lists have SNIPER scouts or have LoS in a perfect 180* arc.
Exactly. That's because Sniper Scouts SUCK. But they can get 100% returns on him if he's 150 points.
Or, hell, let me put it this way. You drop him in, shoot some characters, and then get eaten in melee. It takes only 13.5 WS3+ S4 attacks to kill him in melee.
He is both FRAGILE and SHORT-RANGED. Now, he does have Deep Strike, for a good beta strike, but after that, he dies.
And unlike, say, Captain Slammy, he ain't soloing a knight.
The fact that an autostub pistol is ridiculously superior to the average boltgun tells you a lot about power creep in an edition.
They have to sell the model. With this ulterior motive fluff is of no concern. He reminds me of Erron Black from Mortal Kombat and would also fit well as a Bounty Hunter in N17.
So what if they can get 100% returns? You are literally dipping into a niche so narrow it isn't worth the return the other 95% of the time.
And yea that is exactly what he should do, drop him in, kill a character, die. Do you think he should stick around? No, of course you don't. But you shouldn't be incentivised to load 3 of these guys into the elite detachment.
LIke what do you think the Manipulas should be at.
Quickjager wrote: So what if they can get 100% returns? You are literally dipping into a niche so narrow it isn't worth the return the other 95% of the time.
And yea that is exactly what he should do, drop him in, kill a character, die. Do you think he should stick around? No, of course you don't. But you shouldn't be incentivised to load 3 of these guys into the elite detachment.
LIke what do you think the Manipulas should be at.
The who what now?
And I'd rather not spend nearly 10% of my list on a one-shot missile that WON'T get 100% returns. Because he's probably killing support characters, who aren't usually over 100 points. He certainly ain't doing more than denting Custodes or Daemon Princes or anything that's really scary.
I'm sorry, but I'd rather not have 150 points go "Poof" the moment any sniper looks funny at them.
Would like to point at that genestealer characters can get look out sirs on a 2+. Which is why he becomes incredibly durable as soon as some chaff gets near him (which he'll be bringing anyways). This is dependent on him being a character though.
Also, rules question but I thought that if you fired a weapon with grenade or pistol you could only fire one weapon. Wouldn't this guy be limited to firing one pistol (and then on a hit fire a second). I could understand a counterpoint being why give him 3 pistols, but GW has screwed over so many rules this edition.
I'm sorry, but I'd rather not have 150 points go "Poof" the moment any sniper looks funny at them.
Would like to point at that genestealer characters can get look out sirs on a 2+. Which is why he becomes incredibly durable as soon as some chaff gets near him (which he'll be bringing anyways). This is dependent on him being a character though.
Also, rules question but I thought that if you fired a weapon with grenade or pistol you could only fire one weapon. Wouldn't this guy be limited to firing one pistol (and then on a hit fire a second). I could understand a counterpoint being why give him 3 pistols, but GW has screwed over so many rules this edition.
It's a 4+, I thought. And yeah, but that also jacks up his cost.
And the rules are, for shooting:
-Fire all weapons EXCEPT Pistols and Grenades
-Fire all Pistols
-Fire one Grenade
The Admech character that was on the same page as this guy.
Also you're missing a couple things about this guy, He is presumably a character, because of how the cult ambush bonus is described; which means he will be taking a full squad of whatever he wants with him, that will also serve as meatshields with unquestioning loyalty. He does get a 5++ which is meh but since he can allocate away from himself it is better than just a flat 4++.
I'm sorry, but I'd rather not have 150 points go "Poof" the moment any sniper looks funny at them.
Would like to point at that genestealer characters can get look out sirs on a 2+. Which is why he becomes incredibly durable as soon as some chaff gets near him (which he'll be bringing anyways). This is dependent on him being a character though.
Also, rules question but I thought that if you fired a weapon with grenade or pistol you could only fire one weapon. Wouldn't this guy be limited to firing one pistol (and then on a hit fire a second). I could understand a counterpoint being why give him 3 pistols, but GW has screwed over so many rules this edition.
It's a 4+, I thought. And yeah, but that also jacks up his cost.
And the rules are, for shooting:
-Fire all weapons EXCEPT Pistols and Grenades
-Fire all Pistols
-Fire one Grenade
Thanks for the clarification.
I don't think that the char rule is what will end up jacking his price up. The +3 to ambush will be (I'm assuming that 6+ counts as 6 on the GSC ambush) It basically gives the GSC another reliable vector for genestealers to come in. If they aren't limited per detachment or army, I could easily see 3+ genestealer squads reliably coming in with 1" charges. That is absolutely terrifying, and would shut down almost every army that can't provide a full screen. Would make flamers useful again though.
Also if its a 4+ LoS instead of 2+ I got jipped by an opponent :(
I'd say getting a codex late would help you, but look at Space Wolves. They got one of the last codexes of 2018 and it is absolute bottom tier, and to make matters worse, they were too close to the CA cutoff and didn't get any much needed balance improvements (for example, a Frost Axe is 10 points versus a PFist which is 9).
Not really seeing it.
Especially not if this guy is properly costed. Does he offer a new dynamic to worry about? Sure. Will it have drawbacks? Considering they pulled the book and their ability to ambush turn 1 I'd count on it.
Do I think he is strong and will be spammed? Absolutely.
Are knights power creep without IG?
Are DE power creep without doom?
Necrons certainly werent. Or SW.
I think Orks are great, but certainly not creep.
Custodes are all but a distant memory.
That factions get special places they shine isn't really power creep.
YES, Knights are power creep without Guard supporting them and, YES, Dark Eldar are power creep without even allied Eldar.
YES, Knights are power creep without Guard supporting them and, YES, Dark Eldar are power creep without even allied Eldar.
Did you really need to ask those questions?
And yet barely any mono-lists from these armies can be found.
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JNAProductions wrote: I'm confused about what you're trying to say-I've said nothing about the Tech Priest.
I just find 150 points a ridiculous price for the Kelermorph.
Let's break it down.
A sniper rifle is 4 points. It takes 9 of them to score a MW on average.
//v MEQ 9 * .666 * .5 * .333 = 1 + 1 MW
Ignoring the bodies it cost us 36 points for the weapons to accomplish this.
6 * 1.833 * .833 * .5 * .5 * 2 = 4.6
The kelermorph does 230% more damage. It would then be not unreasonable to expect the total cost of those weapons to be 230% of the sniper rifles - or 83 points.
The actual base cost of the model would be commensurate with other models with those stats. Since he's basically the same as a company commander he would be at least 30 points. Now consider that he can easily provide an aura buff and reliably arrives where you want him to be all of the time - that has value.
This model will be no less than 113 points, but likely should be more as he will have access to their look out sir. Being able to knock out multiple company commanders or even a crucial marine HQ is absolutely WAY more damaging than just the points of the model that was killed.
If he is not max of 1 then you'll see 3 every game and HQ based armies will suffer greatly.
He's either ~40 pts or ~140 pts, because KT is fairly analogous to 40k pts wise, and the rest of the KT sold with him is 59 pts and being bundled as an "entire team".
buttttt being that the ad mech portion costs 75 pts... I'm guessing that the new Ad Mech guy, with 4 wounds, terminator armour, a lance weapon, an invul, and regen d3, he's almost certainly not a 25 pt model
meaning he's almost definitely about 125 pts, and the Kelermorph is about 140 pts, which seems about where GW would price these.
So probably nothing to get worked up over guys. If these prices are right, Kelermorph may see play as tech, but definitely not as an autoinclude. He's not going to change the game.
Slipspace wrote: I may have imagined it, but I thought GW made some comments about it when the Deepstrike rules changed, saying they would change the table to bring it into line with the new rules. If that's the case I wouldn't start making plans for some of these units until we know more!
They have outright stated that Cult Ambush is being overhauled. I have no idea why people ITT are theorycrafting with the old Cult Ambush rules in mind.
Anyway, to throw my hat into the ring- I don't see him being more then 100 points. GW puts a lot of value into statlines and his is garbage- it's basically the definition of a glass cannon.
And even his damage is just okay. With 12 shots he's averaging 3 wounds on a T4 2+ armor save model. What HQ are people thinking of when imagining this guy popping out of reserves and one-shotting them? I feel like 80% of the time he's going to pop out of reserves, wound an HQ and then die because he's T3 4W. And remember, LoS works both ways.
The true value of the character imo comes from how much his rules control your opponent. Just the threat of his cult ambush modifier and guns will corral them into deploying in a way that you can predict and plan against.
Daedalus81 wrote: I'd totally be ok with him at 140. I still think he's going to be a real pain and people who are caught unaware will suffer very brutal games.
Yeah. I think he's super cheap. He can kill near 200 points of Shining Spears on arrival, no risk, no skill, poof and basically cripple a key unit. His CA bonus would seem to also take out even the most minimal risk of a bad arrival there (if these rules stay similar to how they are currently worded). Or he'll force 300+ point units like this to sit out the first 3 rounds of the game, which is even more valuable.
I'd have priced him more around 200 points, to have even a semblance of risk/reward. Right now he's a no-brainer take. Aside from some weird rare match up like all-knights (no loyal 32, etc.), I struggle to even see a scenario where he couldn't make his points back.
Hell, he throws out more D2 hits than a Fire Raptor Gunship. Slightly less strength, but immune to Castellans, etc.. due to CA and character protection. And he buffs nearby units. And can target characters ...
YES, Knights are power creep without Guard supporting them and, YES, Dark Eldar are power creep without even allied Eldar.
Did you really need to ask those questions?
And yet barely any mono-lists from these armies can be found.
Actually mono dark eldar and knights are two of the most common mono armies taken competitively and mono Dark Eldar are the top performing mono faction in the game as of now. Both armies can and do beat soup lists.
JNAProductions wrote: I'm confused about what you're trying to say-I've said nothing about the Tech Priest.
I don't think the other poster was trying to imply you'd said anything about the AdMech dude, but was merely asking your opinion of him (possibly how many points you thought he'd be?)
Banville wrote: Quick question. Each autostub pistol is Pistol 2, right? And he can fire two pistols as per Gunslinger. Does this make him effectively Pistol 4?
He is effectively Pistol 6 because he has 3 of them and can use them all.
Gunslinger merely states that each hit with his pistols autoamtically generates an additional hit, so he can land a maximum of 12 hits per shooting phase.
YES, Knights are power creep without Guard supporting them and, YES, Dark Eldar are power creep without even allied Eldar.
Did you really need to ask those questions?
I agree about Knights, less so about DE without Eldar support.
They have a handful of strong units/builds but the HQs are garbage-tier and the rest of the codex is mediocre at best.
I mean, how many DE tournament lists do you see using Drazhar, Incubi, Wyches, Hellions, Beastmasters, Khymera, Clawed Fiends, Razorwing Flocks, Lhamaeans, Sslyth, Ur-Ghuls, Medusae, Incubi, Mandrakes, Scourges, Cronos and/or Raiders? How many DE lists do you see using more HQs than are necessary to fill out their detachments?
Also, how many Kabal detachments do you see that aren't Black Heart?
How many Coven detachments do you see that aren't Prophets of Flesh?
I might be 100% wrong - but I wouldn't be surprised if cult ambush is going to be completely re-worked.
Also to kill 200 points of shining spears he needs to inflict 6 wounds.
On average you gets slightly over 9 hits. Call it 4.5 wounds. 2.25 go through. So 2.25 dead shining spears. About 75 points worth of damage. For a model that costs 100 points thats good. For a model that costs about 140-150? Its about what's necessary to be played.
And thats about as good as it gets. Shoot marines? 30 points return - awful at 140/150 points. Guardsmen? 20 points return, just laugh.
Then you have characters. Well... which ones matter? The best I can see is that you have a good shot of killing a biker farseer - but you need 3 wounds to go through, and there is a reasonable chance of failure.
You want to go kill a 30 point company commander? Knock yourself out. Anything with a T5 or more with a vaguely decent save isn't dying either.
It is power creep, because he is good versus bad choices that don't see play, representing another gatekeeper, but I don't see it altering the game much.
YES, Knights are power creep without Guard supporting them and, YES, Dark Eldar are power creep without even allied Eldar.
Did you really need to ask those questions?
I agree about Knights, less so about DE without Eldar support.
They have a handful of strong units/builds but the HQs are garbage-tier and the rest of the codex is mediocre at best.
I mean, how many DE tournament lists do you see using Drazhar, Incubi, Wyches, Hellions, Beastmasters, Khymera, Clawed Fiends, Razorwing Flocks, Lhamaeans, Sslyth, Ur-Ghuls, Medusae, Incubi, Mandrakes, Scourges, Cronos and/or Raiders? How many DE lists do you see using more HQs than are necessary to fill out their detachments?
Also, how many Kabal detachments do you see that aren't Black Heart?
How many Coven detachments do you see that aren't Prophets of Flesh?
The same is true of any faction and has absolutely no bearing on whether the faction can perform well as a mono army or not.
How many Ork tournament lists do you see using warbikers, Nobs on Bikes, Kustom Boosta Blastas, Shokkjump Dragsters, Rukkatrukk Squigbuggies, Boomdakka Snazzwagons, Megatrakk Scrapjets, Stompas, Gunwagons, Painboyz, Burna Boyz, Mek Workshops, Flash Gits? I very rarely see anything but the minimum HQs taken for any detachment excluding top performers like Tau Commanders, Hive Tyrants and Daemon Princes.
How many Ork lists aren't Evil Sunz or Bad Moonz?
Dark Eldar are literally the top performing mono army. They're definitely taken and they can win.
The same is true of any faction and has absolutely no bearing on whether the faction can perform well as a mono army or not.
How many Ork tournament lists do you see using warbikers, Nobs on Bikes, Kustom Boosta Blastas, Shokkjump Dragsters, Rukkatrukk Squigbuggies, Boomdakka Snazzwagons, Megatrakk Scrapjets, Stompas, Gunwagons, Painboyz, Burna Boyz, Mek Workshops, Flash Gits? I very rarely see anything but the minimum HQs taken for any detachment excluding top performers like Tau Commanders, Hive Tyrants and Daemon Princes.
How many Ork lists aren't Evil Sunz or Bad Moonz?
Dark Eldar are literally the top performing mono army. They're definitely taken and they can win.
And your entire post has no bearing on what I actually said.
I didn't say that DE couldn't be a mono army. I said that I didn't agree on them being an example of power creep.
Wait, since he only has pistols doesn't that mean he's firing at 3+ or 4+ BS when over 6" from the enemy? That actually doesn't sound terribly useful for a character.
Wyzilla wrote: Wait, since he only has pistols doesn't that mean he's firing at 3+ or 4+ BS when over 6" from the enemy? That actually doesn't sound terribly useful for a character.
The same is true of any faction and has absolutely no bearing on whether the faction can perform well as a mono army or not.
How many Ork tournament lists do you see using warbikers, Nobs on Bikes, Kustom Boosta Blastas, Shokkjump Dragsters, Rukkatrukk Squigbuggies, Boomdakka Snazzwagons, Megatrakk Scrapjets, Stompas, Gunwagons, Painboyz, Burna Boyz, Mek Workshops, Flash Gits? I very rarely see anything but the minimum HQs taken for any detachment excluding top performers like Tau Commanders, Hive Tyrants and Daemon Princes.
How many Ork lists aren't Evil Sunz or Bad Moonz?
Dark Eldar are literally the top performing mono army. They're definitely taken and they can win.
And your entire post has no bearing on what I actually said.
I didn't say that DE couldn't be a mono army. I said that I didn't agree on them being an example of power creep.
Lol fair point well made! Apologies I thought you were responding to me for some reason.
I would argue that Agents of Vect in and of itself is an example of power creep but to be fair I've gone off topic so back to the Kelermorph I guess.
Wyzilla wrote: Wait, since he only has pistols doesn't that mean he's firing at 3+ or 4+ BS when over 6" from the enemy? That actually doesn't sound terribly useful for a character.
Tyel wrote: I might be 100% wrong - but I wouldn't be surprised if cult ambush is going to be completely re-worked.
Also to kill 200 points of shining spears he needs to inflict 6 wounds.
On average you gets slightly over 9 hits. Call it 4.5 wounds. 2.25 go through. So 2.25 dead shining spears. About 75 points worth of damage. For a model that costs 100 points thats good. For a model that costs about 140-150? Its about what's necessary to be played.
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Average slightly over 9 hits per phase. You can straight up double that in Shining Spears killed (150 points taken out of your opponents army right there in average to below-average rolls) and add a few points of value for the re-roll buff. And Game-Design wise, I don’t think a model should straight up make it’s points back on average rolls on deployment, before the opponent even get’s to interact with it.
So yes, killing 75 points of Spears should be what a 140-150 point model can do. Given he can quite frequently do twice that, 200 points seems a bargain for the guy.
Tyel wrote: I might be 100% wrong - but I wouldn't be surprised if cult ambush is going to be completely re-worked.
Also to kill 200 points of shining spears he needs to inflict 6 wounds.
On average you gets slightly over 9 hits. Call it 4.5 wounds. 2.25 go through. So 2.25 dead shining spears. About 75 points worth of damage. For a model that costs 100 points thats good. For a model that costs about 140-150? Its about what's necessary to be played.
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Average slightly over 9 hits per phase. You can straight up double that in Shining Spears killed (150 points taken out of your opponents army right there in average to below-average rolls) and add a few points of value for the re-roll buff. And Game-Design wise, I don’t think a model should straight up make it’s points back on average rolls on deployment, before the opponent even get’s to interact with it.
So yes, killing 75 points of Spears should be what a 140-150 point model can do. Given he can quite frequently do twice that, 200 points seems a bargain for the guy.
Plasma Inceptors can make their points back on deployment. I've done it, it's not even on that unlikely if your opponent doesn't screen well.
And that's the point here - even with character targeting allowed, even with the Kellermorph moving in 6" before firing (assuming the Ambush rules don't change much, which they may well do), it's really much easier to screen out a character for any army bringing chaff (read: any vaguely competitive army) than people here are realising.
My opponents regularly screen off basically their entire deployment zone. Placing a character in that that the Kellermorph can't get to, when you know he's coming, really isn't that difficult.
Doesn’t really matter. Whether you destroy an opponents 300+ points key unit like Shining Spears or DW Primaris or deny them to play the game, forcing them to hid behind a screen is more or less of identical value. A value the Kelter-guys point costs must reflect.
Sure, the hidden Castellan or Tau Gunline doesn’t care. Still got to balance its points against all armies, not just the rare few scissors to that paper.
But if he’s priced to the Plasma-Inceptor equivalent of about 18-20 D2 hits (roughly a unit of 7 or 8 without re-rolls, no?), maybe add another 10% or so for being able to target characters and giving re-rolls, there probably won’t be problem.
Sunny Side Up wrote: Average slightly over 9 hits per phase. You can straight up double that in Shining Spears killed (150 points taken out of your opponents army right there in average to below-average rolls) and add a few points of value for the re-roll buff. And Game-Design wise, I don’t think a model should straight up make it’s points back on average rolls on deployment, before the opponent even get’s to interact with it.
So yes, killing 75 points of Spears should be what a 140-150 point model can do. Given he can quite frequently do twice that, 200 points seems a bargain for the guy.
He gets to shoot twice 1/6th of the time, and that is assuming the cult ambush table hasn't been changed.
Sunny Side Up wrote: Average slightly over 9 hits per phase. You can straight up double that in Shining Spears killed (150 points taken out of your opponents army right there in average to below-average rolls) and add a few points of value for the re-roll buff. And Game-Design wise, I don’t think a model should straight up make it’s points back on average rolls on deployment, before the opponent even get’s to interact with it.
So yes, killing 75 points of Spears should be what a 140-150 point model can do. Given he can quite frequently do twice that, 200 points seems a bargain for the guy.
He gets to shoot twice 1/6th of the time, and that is assuming the cult ambush table hasn't been changed.
We really shouldn't be assuming this. Considering it, but not assuming it.
I know that the game is all about bringing allies especially in imperium but some armies can't bring a decent screen or perhaps only a small one that can easily be taken out in the first turn.
This guy hugely punishes any character without a 2+ and elite multiwound models in general, seems to me these aren't the models that need making worse.
This guys put out alot more hurt alot more reliably than any of the assassins and with the cults look out sir rule is alot more survivable.
Armies bringing 70+ chaff infantry seems to be needed now to play the game which I'm not sure is the best way to go, there needs to be an alternative to screening to make elite armies viable, not sure what form it takes but something to help.
WisdomLS wrote: I know that the game is all about bringing allies especially in imperium but some armies can't bring a decent screen or perhaps only a small one that can easily be taken out in the first turn.
This guy hugely punishes any character without a 2+ and elite multiwound models in general, seems to me these aren't the models that need making worse.
This guys put out alot more hurt alot more reliably than any of the assassins and with the cults look out sir rule is alot more survivable.
Armies bringing 70+ chaff infantry seems to be needed now to play the game which I'm not sure is the best way to go, there needs to be an alternative to screening to make elite armies viable, not sure what form it takes but something to help.
I can keep my Space Marine HQ safe from him with a couple of 5 man Intercessor squads. Do I need to draw a diagram here?
I would argue that Agents of Vect in and of itself is an example of power creep but to be fair I've gone off topic so back to the Kelermorph I guess.
Off topic:
Spoiler:
Agents of Vect is a fair example, I think. But then you could probably say the same of most Stratagems it's used to counter. I mean, if a Stratagem is so powerful that it's worth the opponent spending 3CPs (pre-nerf) to counter, usually refunding them their CPs in the process, then that Stratagem had to be pretty strong to begin with. Still, a counter-Stratagem is indeed very strong.
In any case, this leads to another point which is that I think the DE codex is skewed less by units and more by a couple of overly-strong subfaction rules. For example, Black Heart gives Kabal access to the aforementioned Agents of Vect, a CP-regeneration warlord trait, an artefact that confers a 'reroll 1s to wound' aura (typically used with Ravagers), and a 6+++ for vehicles. The only things that really lose out are infantry... which most tournament DE players don't want to bother with anyway. Then you've got Prophets of Flesh, which gives a 4++ to all Coven units. I can't help but wonder whether Ravagers would still be seen as overpowered if they were used in a Poison Tongue detachment or if Grotesques/Talos would be still viewed as too strong if they only had 5++ saves.
Back on topic, I'll be very interested to see how the Kelermorph is priced. On the one hand, he has weak defensive stats. But on the other hand, defensive stats rarely matter for characters (outside of, ironically, cases like the Kelermorph).
In terms of his rules, there's something that bugs me about his pistols having 2 shots each. Does any other non-artefact pistol in the game get 2 shots?
The same is true of any faction and has absolutely no bearing on whether the faction can perform well as a mono army or not.
How many Ork tournament lists do you see using warbikers, Nobs on Bikes, Kustom Boosta Blastas, Shokkjump Dragsters, Rukkatrukk Squigbuggies, Boomdakka Snazzwagons, Megatrakk Scrapjets, Stompas, Gunwagons, Painboyz, Burna Boyz, Mek Workshops, Flash Gits? I very rarely see anything but the minimum HQs taken for any detachment excluding top performers like Tau Commanders, Hive Tyrants and Daemon Princes.
How many Ork lists aren't Evil Sunz or Bad Moonz?
Dark Eldar are literally the top performing mono army. They're definitely taken and they can win.
And your entire post has no bearing on what I actually said.
I didn't say that DE couldn't be a mono army. I said that I didn't agree on them being an example of power creep.
power creep doesn't mean literally every unit is top tier, or that the weak units are stronger than other codexes best ones. It means the strongest thing the dex can do, raises the bar from where it was for everyone else. This is like saying 6th ed Tau and Eldar weren't power creep, because Kroot and Warp Spiders sucked. Drukhari are an excellent example of power creep this edition.
In terms of his rules, there's something that bugs me about his pistols having 2 shots each. Does any other non-artefact pistol in the game get 2 shots?
Their whole profile is wrong. A stubber with the same strength and better AP than a bolter and 2 shots for a non-automatic weapon. D2 I can accept if this thing is shooting some sort of dumdum ammo, but then again, that'S what bolters are supposed to be shooting, too.
I feel the design team is having a bit too much fun with the new GSC.
I don't really see Power Creep this edition. Just more or less random spikes of power here and there. Drukhari was ages ago. Space Wolves is considered meh to terrible. Everything in between has been up and down. Not really much pattern!
Stux wrote: I don't really see Power Creep this edition. Just more or less random spikes of power here and there. Drukhari was ages ago. Space Wolves is considered meh to terrible. Everything in between has been up and down. Not really much pattern!
Yeah, agreed. GW must have their own sort of randomly generated decision table for how good or crappy a unit is. Otherwise all those fancy new ork vehicles would be incredible, along with primaris marines and so on. I realize the primaris marines are old in terms of this edition, but even when they came out they weren't particularly good. Anyway, I guess we'll see what the ambush rules are like and have more ammo to whine or not.
power creep doesn't mean literally every unit is top tier, or that the weak units are stronger than other codexes best ones. It means the strongest thing the dex can do, raises the bar from where it was for everyone else.
I disagree.
For it to be power creep, the majority of units in the book would need to be stronger than previous comparable units. Not just one or two. That's the whole point of power creep. This simply isn't the case with the DE book.
DE has a few standout units, sure (or, more accurately, a couple of standout subfactions - how many tournament lists are wrecking things with Poison Tongue or Coven of Twelve?), but the vast majority of the codex is in no way ahead of the curve, with its HQs are among the worst in the game.
Their whole profile is wrong. A stubber with the same strength and better AP than a bolter and 2 shots for a non-automatic weapon. D2 I can accept if this thing is shooting some sort of dumdum ammo, but then again, that'S what bolters are supposed to be shooting, too.
Yeah, it does seem very out of whack with what the model is armed with. It seems like he's literally shooting the equivalent of 3 Relic pistols.
YES, Knights are power creep without Guard supporting them and, YES, Dark Eldar are power creep without even allied Eldar.
Did you really need to ask those questions?
And yet barely any mono-lists from these armies can be found.
lol
i swear ive pulled you up before for spouting unchecked "facts" like this before
K. Show me all the knight lists making top of tournaments without IG. Mono Knights make a great showing when they dodge facing haywire. I'd hardly call rock-paper-scissor power creep.
Actually mono dark eldar and knights are two of the most common mono armies taken competitively and mono Dark Eldar are the top performing mono faction in the game as of now. Both armies can and do beat soup lists.
Are you sure. No farseer at all? They're not as common as you say.
T'au and Orks are mono and they've been taking top tables, but of course I've seen you say Orks are "middle" tier, so...
It don't think the claim was that no seer DE are the most common DE list, but that out of all mono lists being played DE without any farseers are one of the few armies that do well.
The same is true of any faction and has absolutely no bearing on whether the faction can perform well as a mono army or not.
How many Ork tournament lists do you see using warbikers, Nobs on Bikes, Kustom Boosta Blastas, Shokkjump Dragsters, Rukkatrukk Squigbuggies, Boomdakka Snazzwagons, Megatrakk Scrapjets, Stompas, Gunwagons, Painboyz, Burna Boyz, Mek Workshops, Flash Gits? I very rarely see anything but the minimum HQs taken for any detachment excluding top performers like Tau Commanders, Hive Tyrants and Daemon Princes.
How many Ork lists aren't Evil Sunz or Bad Moonz?
Dark Eldar are literally the top performing mono army. They're definitely taken and they can win.
And your entire post has no bearing on what I actually said.
I didn't say that DE couldn't be a mono army. I said that I didn't agree on them being an example of power creep.
By that logic, 7th Edition Eldar wasn't power creep then, because they too had "bad" units.
I honestly don't mind that this guy is armed with 3 pistols and can target characters, but the ROF and damage are ludicrous for this type of weapon. It should be Pistol 1, S4 -1 D1. Let him get an extra shot if he hits for potential 6 total hits. Then cost him appropriately. Current case is mindnumbing.
I guess GW wanted to make sure people are going to rush out and buy the new GSC so are going balls out with obnoxious rules for them.
I think it'd be more interesting if the model simply had Autopistols, but a special rule that let them add 1 to wound rolls, AP, and damage of the weapons. This would have almost the exact same effect (I guess this rule is better against T2 and T8 enemies), but would make the guns seem less like "wait, where did he find those?".
In terms of his rules, there's something that bugs me about his pistols having 2 shots each. Does any other non-artefact pistol in the game get 2 shots?
Admech have several multi-shot pistols. The infiltrators have either a 12" Pistol 5 S3 variant or and 18" Pistol 3 S4 variant. The tech priest dominus has a macrostubber which is 5 S4 shots.
So they do exist.
No idea how this guys should be pointed though, since I don't know GSC well enough.. Not even taking into account potential changes in the codex. 120ish seems fair at a glance IMO
Tibs Ironblood wrote: Ok now the rant part on the guns. Why are his pistols more deadly than master crafted marine boltguns? Why are his generic ass STUBBER pistols as deadly as marine RELIC bolters!?
Forget bolters, Deathwatch xenopurge slugs (which are basically massive stub rounds) have similar stats, 2 shots at S4 AP-1 D2... with a range of 8 inches. And DW veteran can't target characters, has only one shotgun, and the shotgun is so overpriced SM vet with one costs same as Primaris marine with bolt rifle despite across the board worse stats. Let that sink in, best special ammo DW could produce for their one of a kind, master-crafted shotguns with much bigger caliber is worse than what random mook cobbled together in a cave. Isn't it great?
If he can really shoot twice, that's 12 shots (14+, really, due to exploding rolls), equivalent of 7+ man DW squad costing minimum 140+ points while also having 50% greater range, native deep strike, good LOS, and built in buff for his LOSing unit. Wanna bet he will be like 60 points?
Tyel wrote: And thats about as good as it gets. Shoot marines? 30 points return
But if we went with that logic ton of stuff which suppose to be cool is no where near cool, often it is the opposite of cool.
Besides the point cost, and yeah at 60 he would be broken, I wonder if the GSC ambush thing is going to stay mostly the same. Maybe it got changed in to something else, and that balances out his really good shoting.
In terms of his rules, there's something that bugs me about his pistols having 2 shots each. Does any other non-artefact pistol in the game get 2 shots?
Admech have several multi-shot pistols. The infiltrators have either a 12" Pistol 5 S3 variant or and 18" Pistol 3 S4 variant. The tech priest dominus has a macrostubber which is 5 S4 shots.
So they do exist.
No idea how this guys should be pointed though, since I don't know GSC well enough.. Not even taking into account potential changes in the codex. 120ish seems fair at a glance IMO
"120ish seems fair at a glance": Are you really thinking that a Deffkilla Wartrike (since you seem to play Orks) should cost literally the same as this guy? If it were for me I wouldn't let touch you 40k's Balance even with a 10 meters stick
Stux wrote: He's a fancy cool gunslinger so he gets fancy cool guns. It's rule of cool.
This game was never a simulation, this part doesn't bother me in the slightest.
I don't know about never - but yeah, today its clearly a game first and a simulation second.
Which to be fair has produced the best edition in a very long time, if not ever.
Stux wrote: He's a fancy cool gunslinger so he gets fancy cool guns. It's rule of cool.
This game was never a simulation, this part doesn't bother me in the slightest.
I don't know about never - but yeah, today its clearly a game first and a simulation second.
Which to be fair has produced the best edition in a very long time, if not ever.
If it was ever trying to be a battle simulation, it was an extremely poor one.
I'll admit that 8th is more gamefied in some respects than other editions though, especially with Stratagems.
"120ish seems fair at a glance": Are you really thinking that a Deffkilla Wartrike (since you seem to play Orks) should cost literally the same as this guy? If it were for me I wouldn't let touch you 40k's Balance even with a 10 meters stick
Perhaps not, perhaps that's crazy expensive. As I said, not too familiar with the army but he does seem to bring a serious set of potential himself as a character sniper and buffs other units. At a first glance is just meant as a very rough measuring stick. I'll freely admit, I should be nowhere near whatever point cost claculation are made for GSC (not that that'd ever happen, but still). In regards to his usability compared to a deffkilla, they do have entirely different roles on the battlefield so I'm not sure how much can be drawn from that comparison. I think the deffkilla is worth his 120 points even though he never survives but such is the life an ork. The kelermorph seems much more like a hard counter to HQ heavy armies such as eldar, thousand sons etc and that kind of reliability to plink off those guys would probabaly come at a premium.
I wouldn't riot if he ended up costing 100 points, perhaps that's a lot more fair, but I don't think he's so far off the mark of 120 that's it's some sort of point costing atrocity I just commited even just suggesting it.
I think people are running wild with conjectures. The codex isn't out, we have no idea what the gunslinger costs, or whether he will ever get a chance to do what he does best.
My gut feeling is that cult ambush will have switched to a 2d6 roll, with the best and worst results being much harder to achieve. Even with his +3, I expect he'll only have a decent chance of the most horrendous ambushes instead of an almost guaranteed chance.
vipoid wrote: 3 pistols with 2 shots and D2 apiece that also generate extra shots each time they hit does seem a tad... excessive.
He also puts every model in the game armed with Relic pistols to shame.
Does he have three or one? The stat line is representing the entire bundle in my opinion. He has one liberator autostub that fires two or three shots since he has three arms. Or maybe I'm completely wrong, but I'm fairly convinced GW is going for the idea of one weapon in the entire profile and not a repeat of both. Afterall the profile of Calgar's gauntlets is in a single profile, not two even though he has two powerfists with guns.
vipoid wrote: 3 pistols with 2 shots and D2 apiece that also generate extra shots each time they hit does seem a tad... excessive.
He also puts every model in the game armed with Relic pistols to shame.
Does he have three or one? The stat line is representing the entire bundle in my opinion. He has one liberator autostub that fires two or three shots since he has three arms. Or maybe I'm completely wrong, but I'm fairly convinced GW is going for the idea of one weapon in the entire profile and not a repeat of both. Afterall the profile of Calgar's gauntlets is in a single profile, not two even though he has two powerfists with guns.
Stux wrote: He's a fancy cool gunslinger so he gets fancy cool guns. It's rule of cool.
This game was never a simulation, this part doesn't bother me in the slightest.
Rule of cool does not require one to sacrifice internal consistency though. Give him variants of the Plasma Pistol if you want them to be that strong.
I like the model, but hate the implications it makes about GWs design process.
Why not just imagine that his Liberator autostub uses depleted unobtainium bullets? Maybe other people don't use them due to rarity and the harmful effects of even being close to them for too long...
I don't see why people are so stressed out by this.
Why not just imagine that his Liberator autostub uses depleted unobtainium bullets? Maybe other people don't use them due to rarity and the harmful effects of even being close to them for too long...
I don't see why people are so stressed out by this.
Sure, you can explain away pretty much anything, especially in 40k, but I'd like them to at least try and be more careful about the way they are doing new things.
It's really not that difficult to be consistent and it does improve the setting a lot if you don't have to resort to similar explanations with every other piece of rules or fiction that is being released.
Why not just imagine that his Liberator autostub uses depleted unobtainium bullets? Maybe other people don't use them due to rarity and the harmful effects of even being close to them for too long...
I don't see why people are so stressed out by this.
Sure, you can explain away pretty much anything, especially in 40k, but I'd like them to at least try and be more careful about the way they are doing new things.
It's really not that difficult to be consistent and it does improve the setting a lot if you don't have to resort to similar explanations with every other piece of rules or fiction that is being released.
But that is the point... nothing is consistent, why would this be? The most obvious example is that marines are not remotely as powerful in the game as in the novels. It is a fictional universe, one that comes last in order of priority. It is models first, rules second, game background third and novels on a parallel path all of their own.
Why not just imagine that his Liberator autostub uses depleted unobtainium bullets? Maybe other people don't use them due to rarity and the harmful effects of even being close to them for too long...
I don't see why people are so stressed out by this.
Sure, you can explain away pretty much anything, especially in 40k, but I'd like them to at least try and be more careful about the way they are doing new things.
It's really not that difficult to be consistent and it does improve the setting a lot if you don't have to resort to similar explanations with every other piece of rules or fiction that is being released.
But that is the point... nothing is consistent, why would this be? The most obvious example is that marines are not remotely as powerful in the game as in the novels. It is a fictional universe, one that comes last in order of priority. It is models first, rules second, game background third and novels on a parallel path all of their own.
It really isn't worth stressing over.
If your argument is nothing is inconsistent, so feth everything, that isn't a good argument. Come up with a better one.
But that is the point... nothing is consistent, why would this be? The most obvious example is that marines are not remotely as powerful in the game as in the novels. It is a fictional universe, one that comes last in order of priority. It is models first, rules second, game background third and novels on a parallel path all of their own.
But they are designing a game and if the game is improved by making this model D2, they will. If the game makes the fluff inconsistent, that is a very secondary concern.
Fifty wrote: But they are designing a game and if the game is improved by making this model D2, they will. If the game makes the fluff inconsistent, that is a very secondary concern.
I agree, but I suspect that's not at all what is happening here. Their sculptors/designers go all out and the rules are then made to accomodate whatever the model is supposed to represent.
This is fairly plausible considering the state of the game - It's a sales vehicle for miniatures first and foremost and it shows.
Quickjager wrote: If your argument is nothing is inconsistent, so feth everything, that isn't a good argument. Come up with a better one.
I'll rephrase. As the models and the rules take precedence over the fluff for GW, there will always be fluff inconsistencies. It isn't quite "feth everything" but just realising that gameplay experience is the priority, not fluff. If they had called them "Special ammo stubguns" to mirror Deathwatch spcial ammo making bolters better, would you be happier? To me, "Liberator" is just code for "Master-crafted special stubgun."
It is fine to prioritize gameplay over fluff. But when you start ignoring the entire lore of the universe in order to just have a model that is "really cool" well then you don't really have any legs to stand on when it comes to justifying ANYTHING. So I'll flip it on you instead, why are you even here defending it?
Quickjager wrote: It is fine to prioritize gameplay over fluff. But when you start ignoring the entire lore of the universe in order to just have a model that is "really cool" well then you don't really have any legs to stand on when it comes to justifying ANYTHING. So I'll flip it on you instead, why are you even here defending it?
Because I think it's cool. I like the gunslinger trope, crossed with Genestealers, and I'm glad his guns have punch.
Quickjager wrote: It is fine to prioritize gameplay over fluff. But when you start ignoring the entire lore of the universe in order to just have a model that is "really cool" well then you don't really have any legs to stand on when it comes to justifying ANYTHING. So I'll flip it on you instead, why are you even here defending it?
Because I think it's cool. I like the gunslinger trope, crossed with Genestealers, and I'm glad his guns have punch.
\
Sorry, wasn't addressing you. But on your point, I'm hearing you wouldn't think it was cool if his weapons were weaker?
In terms of his rules, there's something that bugs me about his pistols having 2 shots each. Does any other non-artefact pistol in the game get 2 shots?
Admech have several multi-shot pistols. The infiltrators have either a 12" Pistol 5 S3 variant or and 18" Pistol 3 S4 variant. The tech priest dominus has a macrostubber which is 5 S4 shots.
So they do exist.
No idea how this guys should be pointed though, since I don't know GSC well enough.. Not even taking into account potential changes in the codex. 120ish seems fair at a glance IMO
"120ish seems fair at a glance": Are you really thinking that a Deffkilla Wartrike (since you seem to play Orks) should cost literally the same as this guy? If it were for me I wouldn't let touch you 40k's Balance even with a 10 meters stick
That's not how it works. Just because a wartrike is T6 with a bunch of wounds for 120 doesn't mean that this guy doesn't have a similar impact on the game.
Wartrike has 3.5 S5 AP1 D1 auto-hit shots as well as 6 S5 AP0 D1 shots at BS5.
This guy has effectively 11 shots with S4 AP1 D2 and can target characters.
4.6 vs 1.7 - there is no contest. The KM can do it from further away, too. SO, then the trike can melee and is really durable.
To break it down - the majority of the points of the KM lie in it's shooting. The majority of the points for the trike lie in it's melee and durability. Sniping a key character out has a MUCH larger impact on the game, which is why he would cost a similar amount.
Making a powerful stub gun without giving it a detailed justification is hardly "ignoring the entire lore of the universe." I mean, you have to realise you are using more than just a little bit of hyperbole, right?
Literally all they have done is make a powerful gun without explaining what makes it so powerful. Why you'd get hung up on that when there are simple explanations available is beyond me. It might be special ammo, it might be high calibre, it might be that they ought to have made it a more regular stub gun and given the kelermorph special rules instead. Hell, there might be an explanation in the kill team box or codex. It is not a lore-shattering issue the way you seem to suggest. Just because it hasn't been explained, it doesn't mean it can't be and it doesn't mean it needs to be.
Fifty wrote: My gut feeling is that cult ambush will have switched to a 2d6 roll, with the best and worst results being much harder to achieve. Even with his +3, I expect he'll only have a decent chance of the most horrendous ambushes instead of an almost guaranteed chance.
That sounds plausible and would make it more reasonable to make the KM cheaper.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Quickjager wrote: It is fine to prioritize gameplay over fluff. But when you start ignoring the entire lore of the universe in order to just have a model that is "really cool" well then you don't really have any legs to stand on when it comes to justifying ANYTHING. So I'll flip it on you instead, why are you even here defending it?
You're never going to get a marine that works like the fluff. You're already dealing with inconsistencies. Either separate the fluff from the game or live with it.
Fifty wrote: Making a powerful stub gun without giving it a detailed justification is hardly "ignoring the entire lore of the universe." I mean, you have to realise you are using more than just a little bit of hyperbole, right?
Literally all they have done is make a powerful gun without explaining what makes it so powerful. Why you'd get hung up on that when there are simple explanations available is beyond me. It might be special ammo, it might be high calibre, it might be that they ought to have made it a more regular stub gun and given the kelermorph special rules instead. Hell, there might be an explanation in the kill team box or codex. It is not a lore-shattering issue the way you seem to suggest. Just because it hasn't been explained, it doesn't mean it can't be and it doesn't mean it needs to be.
No but its ignoring the universe, and if you want to keep it out of hyperbole you should start with yourself and your unobtanium bullets, right? I see you jumping on a guy for voicing his opinion and it rubs me the wrong way AND I think his side has more merit. So tell me, why are you so hung up on this?
Fifty wrote: My gut feeling is that cult ambush will have switched to a 2d6 roll, with the best and worst results being much harder to achieve. Even with his +3, I expect he'll only have a decent chance of the most horrendous ambushes instead of an almost guaranteed chance.
That sounds plausible and would make it more reasonable to make the KM cheaper.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Quickjager wrote: It is fine to prioritize gameplay over fluff. But when you start ignoring the entire lore of the universe in order to just have a model that is "really cool" well then you don't really have any legs to stand on when it comes to justifying ANYTHING. So I'll flip it on you instead, why are you even here defending it?
You're never going to get a marine that works like the fluff. You're already dealing with inconsistencies. Either separate the fluff from the game or live with it.
Quickjager wrote: It is fine to prioritize gameplay over fluff. But when you start ignoring the entire lore of the universe in order to just have a model that is "really cool" well then you don't really have any legs to stand on when it comes to justifying ANYTHING. So I'll flip it on you instead, why are you even here defending it?
Because I think it's cool. I like the gunslinger trope, crossed with Genestealers, and I'm glad his guns have punch.
\
Sorry, wasn't addressing you. But on your point, I'm hearing you wouldn't think it was cool if his weapons were weaker?
Basically. Probably not as cool. Like, they could have been a little weaker and it would be fine though, but that will depend on his points cost for me, way more than the lore.
I can easily headcanon reasons his guns shoot good, it just isn't a problem for me.
That's unfortunate-but that's no reason to try to make everything new suck too. It'd be better to bring Grey Knights up a LOT, and bring the top stuff down by a smaller amount. Meet a little above the middle, is my ideal.
No but its ignoring the universe, and if you want to keep it out of hyperbole you should start with yourself and your unobtanium bullets, right?
It is not ignoring the universe, it is just adding something to it. How is unobtanium in any sci-fi medium hyperbole? I am using the phrase unobtanium in the generic sense of something in a fictional universe that cannot be explained by reference to modern technology. Other examples of unobtanium already present in 40k include ceramite, plasteel, blackstone, necrodermis, any number of tyranid bioforms, and so on.
I see you jumping on a guy for voicing his opinion and it rubs me the wrong way AND I think his side has more merit. So tell me, why are you so hung up on this?
I certainly don't feel I've jumped on anyone, and if BertBert feels that way then A) he hasn't shown it and B) I apologise to him. If anyone is coming on strong in this conversation, I think it is you, but certainly not in a way that upsets me. It is just a debate about a fictitious game on a website. I'm far more bothered by a conversation in Nuts & Bolts right now, and if I didn't get a chance to respond to that, it would not bother me at all.
As for why I am hung up on this, I'm just passing the time as I watch a mediocre Netflix movie with my fiancee. I have an opinion, time to share it and enjoy the distraction. Honestly, no more than that. If you are actually upset by it, I suppose I could stop responding to you, so if you ask I will make this my last response to you.
That's unfortunate-but that's no reason to try to make everything new suck too. It'd be better to bring Grey Knights up a LOT, and bring the top stuff down by a smaller amount. Meet a little above the middle, is my ideal.
This isn't about GK sucking, I don't ever make it about Grey Knights sucking, you guys do when you want to drown out what I want to say.
That's unfortunate-but that's no reason to try to make everything new suck too. It'd be better to bring Grey Knights up a LOT, and bring the top stuff down by a smaller amount. Meet a little above the middle, is my ideal.
This isn't about GK sucking, I don't ever make it about Grey Knights sucking, you guys do when you want to drown out what I want to say.
Then why do you want the Kelermorph to be 150 points? He's got less durability than a 30 point Company Commander, unless surrounded by friends who can take the hit for him (but they, of course, cost points).
I'll certainly agree that he's got a LOT more killing power, but he's not worth 150 points.
It's fine you want to use the it's a game card Fifty and I'm glad your life has someone special in it, even though it has nothing to do with the conversation.
So please act like how you wish to in regards to debates and actually put forth an argument that amounts to more than, "it doesn't need to be".
Quickjager wrote: It's fine you want to used the it's a game card Fifty and I'm glad your life has someone special in it, even though it has nothing to do with the conversation.
So please act like how you wish to in regards to debates and actually put forth a argument that amounts to more than, "it doesn't need to be".
Hey, you asked why I was so hung up on it. I just responded. I'm not hung up; It is a distraction from Annihilation. Sorry if you don't like the context of my response.
Now, I have put forth an argument, and I'll re-summarise;
1) The Warhammer universe functions on many examples of Unobtaniums and MacGuffins, of which I have previously given several examples.
2) This pistol presently has little or no explanation.
3) It would be easy for GW to create a new Unobtanium or MacGuffin.to explain this pistol. They may do so in the codex, but there are a limited number of pages, and maybe more importannt things to explain.
4) There are many other things in W40k which could be explained have not been.
4) The fact they have not explained this one weapon of one character in one army is, for me, a minor issue which I am happy to resolve with head-cannon that equates "Liberator" to something akin to Deathwatch Special Ammo.
I just don't regard a lack of detail about one gun a lore-breaking issue.
To address something you asked someone else, "I'm hearing you wouldn't think it was cool if his weapons were weaker?"
You are probably partially right. BUT, I used Howling Banshees occasionally even when they were dreadful. When I use marines, I use tactical marines. I used Grey Knight terminators in a campaign weekend last summer because I think my old Rogue Trader terminators look cool. I'll buy this model whether the points cost is reasonable or not, and use it sometimes. I'll use it more often if it is powerful. I'd think it is cool either way.
That's unfortunate-but that's no reason to try to make everything new suck too. It'd be better to bring Grey Knights up a LOT, and bring the top stuff down by a smaller amount. Meet a little above the middle, is my ideal.
This isn't about GK sucking, I don't ever make it about Grey Knights sucking, you guys do when you want to drown out what I want to say.
Then why do you want the Kelermorph to be 150 points? He's got less durability than a 30 point Company Commander, unless surrounded by friends who can take the hit for him (but they, of course, cost points).
I'll certainly agree that he's got a LOT more killing power, but he's not worth 150 points.
This might be surprising, but I don't cost other units in regards to how GK how costed because GK are costed poorly, I would be an idiot of amazing proportions if I ever started distorting the game around how a GKSS is costed. I think saying that he has less durability than a company commander is also in bad faith because we are not talking about just durability, if we use that kind of comparison then we know he should cost more than a grot but less than a commander. Which isn't true. Instead we should compare him to similar roles such as the assassins I mentioned before, all of which are in the 80-90 range (off the top of my head).
I think most can agree the assassins are a little bit overpriced for what they bring as they really fail to actually perform their role. This guy on the other hand can actually accomplish it, but he is less durable, -1W -1T 5++ (it is probably like 20 bolter shot difference if I mathed it out). But you will almost always get the alpha with with his squad he brings, and this squad will almost always get an alpha with their ranged weapons as well (You could play risky and hope for a 4+ where you can charge after moving and take purestrain). I put a large amount of value on alpha strikes, which this guy offers very safely, he could even be a beta strike if the game unfolds that way.
The value I'm putting on this guy isn't because of his durability, or just his weapons; but it is the advantage he gives his squad in being able to be where they actually want to be. I'd say 90 points if he isn't a character, but if he is I'd still be leaning towards the high side.
-1T, -1W, 5+ instead of 4++. He does NOT have an invuln.
And I do agree he's pretty comparable to Assassins-he's better at killing, but much less durable, especially since he has no range. The Vindicare can safely sit back and shoot away with his range, the Culexus is STUPIDLY more durable with him dropping your hits to a 6+, the Eversor has 50% more wounds, and the Callidus feths with your opponent's CP.
If you think the Assassins are overcosted, why would you put someone who's pretty comparable at twice their price?
We don't know what the new ambush table will look like, but if it is similar to the current one, you'll be absolutely right about the alpha potential of this unit. My gut feeling is that I'd happily pay 90 points for what we've seen so far and possibly more.
On my phone right now, he does have an invul read the community page. Real quick, if old table remains I stand by costing, if there is a new one it the costing is subject to change.
The fantasy of a gunslinger has him use normal looking guns, but do amazing things with them.
I assume that is their reasoning anyway.
Pretty much this. Seems like people would have liked it better if it had stated "Gunslinger gives their weapons a +1 to damage". Since the Gunslinger is unable to drop his weapon and another cultists is unable to pick up said weapon this is a cleaner ruling than adding extra text for days.
By that logic, 7th Edition Eldar wasn't power creep then, because they too had "bad" units.
They might have had one or two, but almost the entirety of their codex was above the power curve, relative to the older 7th edition books.
(And this is before we get into the ridiculous Formations that came into play about half-way through 7th.)
Do you want to concede this point or do you have yet more nonsense to spew?
he is not spewing nonsense, not at all. You're completely rewriting the definition of power creep literally as you go to suit your argument. If the codex itself pushes for new HEIGHTS above the rest of the armies, that's power creep. This is how balance is ALWAYS measured, by the strongest way of playing a factor, not by the weakest, what you discuss is internal balance. And with that said, even the units you list as the weakest are mostly all on par with other dexes middle of the line stuff, ie. their bad stuff is mostly better then the bad stuff of the dexes that preceded them.
Quickjager wrote: On my phone right now, he does have an invul read the community page. Real quick, if old table remains I stand by costing, if there is a new one it the costing is subject to change.
The fantasy of a gunslinger has him use normal looking guns, but do amazing things with them.
I assume that is their reasoning anyway.
Pretty much this. Seems like people would have liked it better if it had stated "Gunslinger gives their weapons a +1 to damage". Since the Gunslinger is unable to drop his weapon and another cultists is unable to pick up said weapon this is a cleaner ruling than adding extra text for days.
"Amazing" doesn't quite do it justice. These guns match the rate of fire of boltguns in rapid fire range, match them for strength too, beat them on armor penetration and do double the damage of them. They put the bolt pistol of CYPHER, the legendary mysterious time travelling gunslinger Astartes character who wields a relic bolt pistol, to shame - and the kelermorph has 3 of them.
I'm a Nids/GSC player, but unlike certain people who feel the need to downplay anything even resembling a complaint said about their army, I am inclined to agree with quickjager and others saying that it looks like the design time is having a bit too much fun with GSC. There is a standard set for tabletop weaponry and stuff like this is very anti-thematic imo. Yeah, a rule that he got +1 to wound or something instead and -1 strength in the guns or something, would have gone a long way to making it feel like he's not semi auto firing heavy bolters with double damage in each one of his three hands.
"Amazing" doesn't quite do it justice. These guns match the rate of fire of boltguns in rapid fire range, match them for strength too, beat them on armor penetration and do double the damage of them. They put the bolt pistol of CYPHER, the legendary mysterious time travelling gunslinger Astartes character who wields a relic bolt pistol, to shame - and the kelermorph has 3 of them.
I'm a Nids/GSC player, but unlike certain people who feel the need to downplay anything even resembling a complaint said about their army, I am inclined to agree with quickjager and others saying that it looks like the design time is having a bit too much fun with GSC. There is a standard set for tabletop weaponry and stuff like this is very anti-thematic imo. Yeah, a rule that he got +1 to wound or something instead and -1 strength in the guns or something, would have gone a long way to making it feel like he's not semi auto firing heavy bolters with double damage in each one of his three hands.
The pistol is literally a warpbolter, the ones only daemonprices get with -12" range but on a alpha striking model that is allowed to target charachters it seems and 3 of these things.
"Amazing" doesn't quite do it justice. These guns match the rate of fire of boltguns in rapid fire range, match them for strength too, beat them on armor penetration and do double the damage of them. They put the bolt pistol of CYPHER, the legendary mysterious time travelling gunslinger Astartes character who wields a relic bolt pistol, to shame - and the kelermorph has 3 of them.
I'm a Nids/GSC player, but unlike certain people who feel the need to downplay anything even resembling a complaint said about their army, I am inclined to agree with quickjager and others saying that it looks like the design time is having a bit too much fun with GSC. There is a standard set for tabletop weaponry and stuff like this is very anti-thematic imo. Yeah, a rule that he got +1 to wound or something instead and -1 strength in the guns or something, would have gone a long way to making it feel like he's not semi auto firing heavy bolters with double damage in each one of his three hands.
The pistol is literally a warpbolter, the ones only daemonprices get with -12" range but on a alpha striking model that is allowed to target charachters it seems and 3 of these things.
yeah exactly , which is bad enough on its own, but even more anti-thematic by the fact that they look like revolvers. And the fact that he saw firing three at once, one handed when almost a normal build human or GSC cant even fire something like a boltgun two handed.
I'm not sure if my problem is so much the stats on this guy though, or the stats of the bolter. I think it may be both actually, though bolters really should have an AP value.
SHUPPET wrote: "Amazing" doesn't quite do it justice. These guns match the rate of fire of boltguns in rapid fire range, match them for strength too, beat them on armor penetration and do double the damage of them. They put the bolt pistol of CYPHER, the legendary mysterious time travelling gunslinger Astartes character who wields a relic bolt pistol, to shame - and the kelermorph has 3 of them.
I'm a Nids/GSC player, but unlike certain people who feel the need to downplay anything even resembling a complaint said about their army, I am inclined to agree with quickjager and others saying that it looks like the design time is having a bit too much fun with GSC. There is a standard set for tabletop weaponry and stuff like this is very anti-thematic imo. Yeah, a rule that he got +1 to wound or something instead and -1 strength in the guns or something, would have gone a long way to making it feel like he's not semi auto firing heavy bolters with double damage in each one of his three hands.
I don't completely disagree with your point, but still feel it is easy enough to head-cannon with the idea that liberator stubguns use special ammo.
I also agree that most people defend their faction, but I have over 20,000 points of marines, to go with just a couple of thousand of unbuilt GSC, so it is not all "my army" bias. Sure, "new toy" syndrome is probably a bit of a thing here, but it is such a cool new toy.
As for Cypher's bolt pistol, it is has 4" more range than these, an extra shot and the shooter re-rolls 1s, so misses even less often. Maybe Cypher ought to take out some Deathwatch dudes and steal their ammo? Mind you, by that logic, why don't regular marines use the same ammo as Deathwatch? Cypher also carries an always-overcharges-but-never-overheats, twice-the-number-of-shots plasma pistol, so he is hardly suffering in the pistol department. Maybe his blt pistol is just better than normal, but his plasma pistol is a big enough improvement over a regular one to make up for it.
"Amazing" doesn't quite do it justice. These guns match the rate of fire of boltguns in rapid fire range, match them for strength too, beat them on armor penetration and do double the damage of them. They put the bolt pistol of CYPHER, the legendary mysterious time travelling gunslinger Astartes character who wields a relic bolt pistol, to shame - and the kelermorph has 3 of them.
I'm a Nids/GSC player, but unlike certain people who feel the need to downplay anything even resembling a complaint said about their army, I am inclined to agree with quickjager and others saying that it looks like the design time is having a bit too much fun with GSC. There is a standard set for tabletop weaponry and stuff like this is very anti-thematic imo. Yeah, a rule that he got +1 to wound or something instead and -1 strength in the guns or something, would have gone a long way to making it feel like he's not semi auto firing heavy bolters with double damage in each one of his three hands.
The pistol is literally a warpbolter, the ones only daemonprices get with -12" range but on a alpha striking model that is allowed to target charachters it seems and 3 of these things.
yeah exactly , which is bad enough on its own, but even more anti-thematic by the fact that they look like revolvers. And the fact that he saw firing three at once, one handed when almost a normal build human or GSC cant even fire something like a boltgun two handed.
I'm not sure if my problem is so much the stats on this guy though, or the stats of the bolter. I think it may be both actually, though bolters really should have an AP value.
I mean i don't mind the profile that much, could also argue that he uses special ammo and that his gsc mutated body is stronger.
What i find questionable, on a model that can target charachters and alpha strike, that every hit roll nearly doubles his ammount of dakka.
6 shots 5 hit --> another 5 shots of which another 4 atleast hit.
That is 9 shots S 4 ap -1 D2.
9shots on a alpha striking charachter. He singlehandedly can remove 2 IG charachters in one turn......
On the other side a sniper squad with you know SNIPERRIFLES is basically like a Wet noodle slapped into a concrete wall.
SHUPPET wrote: "Amazing" doesn't quite do it justice. These guns match the rate of fire of boltguns in rapid fire range, match them for strength too, beat them on armor penetration and do double the damage of them. They put the bolt pistol of CYPHER, the legendary mysterious time travelling gunslinger Astartes character who wields a relic bolt pistol, to shame - and the kelermorph has 3 of them.
I'm a Nids/GSC player, but unlike certain people who feel the need to downplay anything even resembling a complaint said about their army, I am inclined to agree with quickjager and others saying that it looks like the design time is having a bit too much fun with GSC. There is a standard set for tabletop weaponry and stuff like this is very anti-thematic imo. Yeah, a rule that he got +1 to wound or something instead and -1 strength in the guns or something, would have gone a long way to making it feel like he's not semi auto firing heavy bolters with double damage in each one of his three hands.
I don't completely disagree with your point, but still feel it is easy enough to head-cannon with the idea that liberator stubguns use special ammo.
I also agree that most people defend their faction, but I have over 20,000 points of marines, to go with just a couple of thousand of unbuilt GSC, so it is not all "my army" bias. Sure, "new toy" syndrome is probably a bit of a thing here, but it is such a cool new toy.
As for Cypher's bolt pistol, it is has 4" more range than these, an extra shot and the shooter re-rolls 1s, so misses even less often. Maybe Cypher ought to take out some Deathwatch dudes and steal their ammo? Mind you, by that logic, why don't regular marines use the same ammo as Deathwatch? Cypher also carries an always-overcharges-but-never-overheats, twice-the-number-of-shots plasma pistol, so he is hardly suffering in the pistol department. Maybe his blt pistol is just better than normal, but his plasma pistol is a big enough improvement over a regular one to make up for it.
Problem is the fact that he can target charachters and doubles his firerate all by his own.
SHUPPET wrote: I'm not sure if my problem is so much the stats on this guy though, or the stats of the bolter. I think it may be both actually, though bolters really should have an AP value.
Bolters should 100% have an AP value. Arguably, in order to match the fluff, bolters should be 2 damage, or maybe D3 damage (I consider D3 damage to be generally worse than 2 damage, by the way)
Automatically Appended Next Post: Not Online, you make a good point there. Maybe one of those abilities should be innate and the other require at least a CP each time.
SHUPPET wrote: I'm not sure if my problem is so much the stats on this guy though, or the stats of the bolter. I think it may be both actually, though bolters really should have an AP value.
Bolters should 100% have an AP value. Arguably, in order to match the fluff, bolters should be 2 damage, or maybe D3 damage (I consider D3 damage to be generally worse than 2 damage, by the way)
Automatically Appended Next Post: Not Online, you make a good point there. Maybe one of those abilities should be innate and the other require at least a CP each time.
That dude was planned as an assasin. Ok no problem with that, they are weak against hordes. Well should be, in comes this Freak with an average of 9 shots......
Why even bother with special weapon squads with sniperrifles, scouts with sniperrifles, marauders with sniperrifles. This dude can wipe whole squads in one round and kill charachters at the same time....
yeah exactly , which is bad enough on its own, but even more anti-thematic by the fact that they look like revolvers. And the fact that he saw firing three at once, one handed when almost a normal build human or GSC cant even fire something like a boltgun two handed.
This might just be abstracted gameplay mechanic, ie. that it is aim that is making these weapons so powerful. The larger question is whether any other unit gets their hand on these weapons. If not these are quite literally unique and named weapons. Who knows, maybe if Cypher got his hands on these pistols they would be effectively damage 3. For all we know he could be so good at aiming that he is literally aiming for weak parts, eyes, brain, or whatever.
I'd also point out:
they’re natural born gunfighters
Which may or may not indicate that these are specially bred genestealer cultists that are superhuman in their own right.
Now, semi-related to this thread I must admit I am mostly tired of people arguing that Space Marines should be the metric stick for godhood in the Warhammer universe and that if something threatens a poor space marine then that goes against the lore because Space Marines are the Alpha and the Omega for some reason. Maybe I am a filthy xenos player for the most part, but damn I am tired of everything revolving around the space marine heroes of the universe. The universe is vast and cruel and there are many things that could easily kill a good space marine, or have people forgotten the warsingers and megarachnids to name a few.
What would be funny, though, if the statline had been a misprint. Then this entire thread was for nothing.
he's not a strength morph. GSC of similar build can't handle bolters either. There's no real thematic explanation here other than "his revolvers are absurdly strong"
Not Online!!! wrote:
Problem is the fact that he can target charachters and doubles his firerate all by his own.
Other factions would have to pay cp for that.
He may have to lay points for that. Let's not whine about balance and him not costing enough before we've even seen the cost, thanks.
SHUPPET wrote: he's not a strength morph. GSC of similar build can't handle bolters either. There's no real thematic explanation here other than "his revolvers are absurdly strong"
Not Online!!! wrote:
Problem is the fact that he can target charachters and doubles his firerate all by his own.
Other factions would have to pay cp for that.
He may have to lay points for that. Let's not whine about balance and him not costing enough before we've even seen the cost, thanks.
I doubt it, and even if, this dude is more effective then your average csm Lord at 74 ppm or commander at 30.
Against chaff aswell as charachters.
He literally is more effective then a flamer against infantry.
Edit: granted the flamers are gak atm so ehh.
Still this dude with some pistols is better then an dedicated shock and anti infantry weapon at it's Job.
9shots on a alpha striking charachter. He singlehandedly can remove 2 IG charachters in one turn......
If the Gunslinger costs more than those 2 IG then that is a net loss for the GSC player. Also, IG have enough bodies to screen their characters that if the Gunslinger can get a kill on 2 IG characters then that IG player should rethink their strategy a bit. Also, if the Gunslinger is getting within 12 inches(which is the range of his guns) to fire his pistols then there isn't much that is going to keep him alive next turn except some godlike rolls(which do happen from time to time I admit).
In removing chaff the gunslinger will remove between 0 - 12 Infantry guardsmen a turn. Not exactly the end of the world. 12 soldiers removed and the GS gets gazillion volleys in return. Not really the best user ever.
I imagine the GS(so far, without having the new codex at hand) is meant to kill characters whose players overplayed their hands and didn't protect their leader.
SHUPPET wrote: he's not a strength morph. GSC of similar build can't handle bolters either. There's no real thematic explanation here other than "his revolvers are absurdly strong"
Not Online!!! wrote: Problem is the fact that he can target charachters and doubles his firerate all by his own.
Other factions would have to pay cp for that.
He may have to lay points for that. Let's not whine about balance and him not costing enough before we've even seen the cost, thanks.
I doubt it, and even if, this dude is more effective then your average csm Lord at 74 ppm or commander at 30. Against chaff aswell as charachters.
He literally is more effective then a flamer against infantry.
The KT one costs about 140 pts as far as we can tell. The 40k one may cost even more since it has different rules.
You're literally whining about balance before the full roles and cost for a model is released. That's so mind numbingly silly that I'm not going to address it any further. Think about what you are doing right now.
If not these are quite literally unique and named weapons.
Yes so how the hell did a GSC gunslinger get THREE relic weapons, each of them more powerful than the gun of the iconic gunslinger of the setting so far who is also not just an Astartes, but one of the oldest ones in the setting, and one from the legion of hidden tech? there's some dumb explanation we can give for anything here, but it's still not thematic at all.
Eldarsif wrote: Who knows, maybe if Cypher got his hands on these pistols they would be effectively damage 3. For all we know he could be so good at aiming that he is literally aiming for weak parts, eyes, brain, or whatever.
In which case Cypher's weapon is even WEAKER than these pistols, which is even worse. Look, that's not how tabletop works anyway, the guns are the same profile for everyone, people who wield it better get bonuses to wound or to damage etc.
Now, semi-related to this thread I must admit I am mostly tired of people arguing that Space Marines should be the metric stick for godhood in the Warhammer universe and that if something threatens a poor space marine then that goes against the lore because Space Marines are the Alpha and the Omega for some reason. Maybe I am a filthy xenos player for the most part, but damn I am tired of everything revolving around the space marine heroes of the universe. The universe is vast and cruel and there are many things that could easily kill a good space marine, or have people forgotten the warsingers and megarachnids to name a few.
Literally nobody is doing that. I main GSC/Tyranids, look at my title and my post history. The FACT is that Space Marines are bio-engineered super soldiers, who's standard issue infantry weaponry are so large and powerful that normal humans are not capable of wielding them. This isn't some generous interpretation or fanboying of the faction, that is a factually and objectively how the lore is. I just think that it makes for a weird standard when guys are tri-wielding little handheld pistols that gak all over that bolter.
The FACT is that Space Marines are bio-engineered super soldiers, whose standard issue infantry weaponry are so large and powerful that normal humans are not capable of wielding them.
The fact is also that Genestealer Cults are evolved organisms. If we take your approach to this then GSC hybrids are the equivalent strength of Space Marines as both sport Str 4. A gunslinger seems to be a similar mutation to the Primus who also has Str4. That means the Gunslinger and Primus could easily lift bolters meaning that the only problem with bolters is their unwieldy size and not weight.
Attribute it to an overactive imagination but I imagine these are gameplay abstractions and not stats that have some 1-to-1 parity with lore representation - which is impossible, I mean, look at the bolter in the lore and how it is on the table, no parity at all - at least until I see whether these individuals are the only ones who have the guns or not.
I must, however, go and watch something to relax as I've been airbrushing a lot this evening. I want to thank you sincerely for a heartfelt discussion and regardless of opinion may we both enjoy fighting as and/or fighting against GSC in the near future. : )
He really is. But it seems you want a turn to spew some as well.
SHUPPET wrote: You're completely rewriting the definition of power creep literally as you go to suit your argument.
No. That's literally what I called Slayer_Fan out on. Do try to keep up, old boy.
SHUPPET wrote: If the codex itself pushes for new HEIGHTS above the rest of the armies, that's power creep.
Yes. If the CODEX pushes for new heights. Not a few UNITS in an otherwise average codex.
SHUPPET wrote: This is how balance is ALWAYS measured, by the strongest way of playing a factor, not by the weakest, what you discuss is internal balance.
But if you're discussing Power Creep, Internal Balance is also highly relevant.
Think of it in terms of a card game - even an otherwise average/weak set can have a few cards way ahead of the curve. If you're at all familiar with MTG, consider the Kamigawa block, which had a few standout cards in a block that was otherwise largely behind the power curve. And a few strong/OP cards in an otherwise weak set do not Power Creep make.
For it to be Power Creep, you would be looking at the majority of cards in a new set being markedly stronger than those from all previous sets.
The same is basically true with 40k codices. If you are looking for Power Creep then you can't simply look at the best units in a book. You also need to look at the other books and see if the majority are stronger than comparable units in previous books.
I mean, by your logic, Blood Angels was Power Creep because it contained Captain Smashfether (or whatever his nickname was). Because apparently the rest of the codex being weaksauce is entirely irrelevant. All that matters is if it has a single unit above the curve. Indeed, it's arguably stronger than any individual unit in the DE codex. So, by your own ridiculous logic, Dark Eldar isn't Power Creep but Blood Angles is.
SHUPPET wrote: And with that said, even the units you list as the weakest are mostly all on par with other dexes middle of the line stuff, ie. their bad stuff is mostly better then the bad stuff of the dexes that preceded them.
He really is. But it seems you want a turn to spew some as well.
SHUPPET wrote: You're completely rewriting the definition of power creep literally as you go to suit your argument.
No. That's literally what I called Slayer_Fan out on. Do try to keep up, old boy.
You called out Slayer fan for something that he was correct about, and you were unfathomably wrong about. You do not need to get salty when the only correct response here is to reinforce where your mistake is an explain it to you. That's not spewing nonsense, as you claim. I personally don't like to throw around such terms towards people just expressing an opinion and I tend to reserve it for people posting objective misinformation, however with that being said, directing 90% of your posts at downplaying a faction that has clearly cemented itself as one of the best in the game might just fit that description to most.
SHUPPET wrote: If the codex itself pushes for new HEIGHTS above the rest of the armies, that's power creep.
Yes. If the CODEX pushes for new heights. Not a few UNITS in an otherwise average codex.
That's literally all anyone ever said. That the Dark Eldar CODEX was power creep. And that's what you disagreed with. Not that the worst units in the dex are somehow stronger than other armies best units, the only person who took it there was you. For someone telling others to keep up, you seem to be all over the place with what you're arguing.
SHUPPET wrote: This is how balance is ALWAYS measured, by the strongest way of playing a factor, not by the weakest, what you discuss is internal balance.
But if you're discussing Power Creep, Internal Balance is also highly relevant.
Think of it in terms of a card game - even an otherwise average/weak set can have a few cards way ahead of the curve. If you're at all familiar with MTG, consider the Kamigawa block, which had a few standout cards in a block that was otherwise largely behind the power curve. And a few strong/OP cards in an otherwise weak set do not Power Creep make.
For it to be Power Creep, you would be looking at the majority of cards in a new set being markedly stronger than those from all previous sets.
The same is basically true with 40k codices. If you are looking for Power Creep then you can't simply look at the best units in a book. You also need to look at the other books and see if the majority are stronger than comparable units in previous books.
I mean, by your logic, Blood Angels was Power Creep because it contained Captain Smashfether (or whatever his nickname was). Because apparently the rest of the codex being weaksauce is entirely irrelevant. All that matters is if it has a single unit above the curve. Indeed, it's arguably stronger than any individual unit in the DE codex. So, by your own ridiculous logic, Dark Eldar isn't Power Creep but Blood Angles is.
Kamigawa didn't raise the power curve, because a single cards or two isn't enough to build or even carry a deck - the overall power level is lower due to the weaker cards you are forced to take . Dark Eldar has MORE than enough top tier units or units at the very least on par with the rest of the game to fill out an entire list, in fact they are fighting for space, with multiple different units and tweaks on builds seeing place at the highest level of play since release. Blood Angels have just the one top tier unit and are held back by the rest of their dex - THEY are an example of the phenomena you describe in Kamigawa, the DE dex is nothing like the BA dex and to even draw that comparison shows unbelievably poor grasp on where these dexes lie. Nobody said anything about "one single unit", in fact I literally said the opposite: that if the Dex, as a whole, reaches new heights in how it can be played (which Dark Eldar absolutely does in comparison to the majority of the game as far as SOLO dexes go), then that is codex creep. Your strawman comparison is beyond erroneous and deliberately angled towards trying to argue the point that you don't want to step down from rather than deliver a fair representation of where your dex stands.
Let's be real here, your post has one motivation, and its shared with 90% of the posts you make - someone said something positive about Dark Eldar, you got your jimmies rustled, and so you came in downplaying and shouting it down. There's no way you would go this length arguing that Tau in 6th, one of the worst examples of power creep yet, wasn't power creep at all because it was simply just codex Riptide + buffs. You have an emotional investment here, its "your" army, you don't want people saying it's too good, and this is why you are immediately combative towards even people just disagreeing civilly with your opinions. Turn it down a notch because you won't win this war of words by attempting to insult me, you will just end up embarrassing yourself further. Let's go back to being civil from here on thanks.
I don’t understand the reason why everyone is freaking over the dudes guns. He’s supposed the be the GSC’s version of Batman or Arrow, he’s probably got super tactical gunslinging abilities that let him hit weak spots for massive damage, and GW wanted to save some data sheet space by incorporating this into the gun stats rather than spelling it out on an ability
C4790M wrote: I don’t understand the reason why everyone is freaking over the dudes guns. He’s supposed the be the GSC’s version of Batman or Arrow, he’s probably got super tactical gunslinging abilities that let him hit weak spots for massive damage, and GW wanted to save some data sheet space by incorporating this into the gun stats rather than spelling it out on an ability
Plus, the suggested "+1 to Wound, AP, and Damage" on a Pistol 2 S3 AP0 D1 gun would result in him being overly good against T8, since he'd still be wounding on 5s.
C4790M wrote: I don’t understand the reason why everyone is freaking over the dudes guns. He’s supposed the be the GSC’s version of Batman or Arrow, he’s probably got super tactical gunslinging abilities that let him hit weak spots for massive damage, and GW wanted to save some data sheet space by incorporating this into the gun stats rather than spelling it out on an ability
you mean like, the hundreds of years of training the genetically enhanced superhumans undergo to do just that, who's bolters don't hurt any more painfully than the same weapons held by non-Astartes?
Face it, this isn't thematic no matter what homebrew lore you make up for it.
the Kelermorphs skill is reflected in his 2+ BS, his ability to target characters, and inspire others around him with his skill. If it was doing extra damage, somehow, that should have gotten a rule.
It's only flavor really, but being that we don't have the full rules yet I think it's a fair talking point, but no big deal. I'm glad GW improved bolters recently at least.
JNAProductions wrote: Because, as we all know, Marines focus exclusively on shooting, whereas the Kelermorph is a jack of all trades! /s
I didn't make that comparison of who is more skilled with a gun than a Kelermorph or an Astartes. We don't know enough about the Kelermorph lore wise, it's possible he's a better shot than a Space Marines. The point was that if you are arguing that he was given a damage buff to reflect his skill, why is a gun equally as strong in the hands of a space marine chapter master trained to use it for 100's of years, and a guardsmen trained for a fraction of that time, who also lacks all the superhuman skill enhancing modifications?
Regardless, the Kelermorph matches most non-captain marine characters for movespeed, attacks, and weapon skill too, so this sarcasm isn't proving any point.
Ashiraya wrote: That is unfortunately just the way it is. The lore has few ties to the gameplay.
It has many ties to gameplay, it's not perfect but most things are a rough representation of their lore on the field. Lascannons are high strength high damage high armor pen, devourers are high rate of fire needler guns, the knight's harpoon fires once but its rotating cannons fire many shots, etc etc etcalmost every single unit wargear and special rule is a fairly decent reflection of the lore, with a few concessions. GW has done an excellent job of making each army's rules feel like that army does in the lore this edition, and most wargear too, and keep them feeling at a consistent level of punch for what they should be able to do thematically. Which is why I will take the time to throw a slight bit of criticism their way when I feel they've regressed on that a little. I don't think we need to make concessions for this, there's definitely ways they could have achieved the same thing for him here, I'm not condemning GW here because I love the model and the rules both and what they are doing here. Just also being honest about what they could have done better.
C4790M wrote: I don’t understand the reason why everyone is freaking over the dudes guns. He’s supposed the be the GSC’s version of Batman or Arrow, he’s probably got super tactical gunslinging abilities that let him hit weak spots for massive damage, and GW wanted to save some data sheet space by incorporating this into the gun stats rather than spelling it out on an ability
Plus, the suggested "+1 to Wound, AP, and Damage" on a Pistol 2 S3 AP0 D1 gun would result in him being overly good against T8, since he'd still be wounding on 5s.
Why wouldn't he hit the weakspots of a Knight for tactical damage if this is what you are arguing?
Ashiraya wrote: That is unfortunately just the way it is. The lore has few ties to the gameplay.
It has many ties to gameplay, it's not perfect but most things are a rough representation of their lore on the field. Lascannons are high strength high damage high armor pen, devourers are high rate of fire needler guns, the knight's harpoon fires once but its rotating cannons fire many shots, etc etc etcalmost every single unit wargear and special rule is a fairly decent reflection of the lore, with a few concessions. GW has done an excellent job of making each army's rules feel like that army does in the lore this edition, and most wargear too, and keep them feeling at a consistent level of punch for what they should be able to do thematically. Which is why I will take the time to throw a slight bit of criticism their way when I feel they've regressed on that a little. I don't think we need to make concessions for this, there's definitely ways they could have achieved the same thing for him here, I'm not condemning GW here because I love the model and the rules both and what they are doing here. Just also being honest about what they could have done better.
C4790M wrote: I don’t understand the reason why everyone is freaking over the dudes guns. He’s supposed the be the GSC’s version of Batman or Arrow, he’s probably got super tactical gunslinging abilities that let him hit weak spots for massive damage, and GW wanted to save some data sheet space by incorporating this into the gun stats rather than spelling it out on an ability
Plus, the suggested "+1 to Wound, AP, and Damage" on a Pistol 2 S3 AP0 D1 gun would result in him being overly good against T8, since he'd still be wounding on 5s.
Why wouldn't he hit the weakspots of a Knight for tactical damage if this is what you are arguing?
The weak spot on an Imperial Knight is only so weak.
As compared to the weak spot on a Primaris Marine or a Captain or something especially.
Moreover, I guarantee you, if he had +1 to wound on a S3 gun, people would be up in arms over how he never wounds Knights on worse than a 5.
Knights already get wounded by Autoguns on a 6+, this is to represent the chance of them getting wounded in a weak spot is it not? marines get wounded by Autoguns on a 5+. If you say S4 is meant to represent not his gun having more stopping power, but him being a better shot and hitting them in the right spot as you claim, then it's no reason this wouldn't be the case for him wounding Knights on a 5+ either. It's not making the weak spots any weaker, you're the one saying it's just to represent the fact that he's a better shot. There's no consistency there.
JNAProductions wrote: Moreover, I guarantee you, if he had +1 to wound on a S3 gun, people would be up in arms over how he never wounds Knights on worse than a 5.
We haven't even seen the price on him yet. It's literally THE most important stat bar none for whether or not something is balanced. Why are people deciding already what would and wouldn't be too strong?
Sunny Side Up wrote: Doesn’t really matter. Whether you destroy an opponents 300+ points key unit like Shining Spears or DW Primaris or deny them to play the game, forcing them to hid behind a screen is more or less of identical value. A value the Kelter-guys point costs must reflect.
Sure, the hidden Castellan or Tau Gunline doesn’t care. Still got to balance its points against all armies, not just the rare few scissors to that paper.
But if he’s priced to the Plasma-Inceptor equivalent of about 18-20 D2 hits (roughly a unit of 7 or 8 without re-rolls, no?), maybe add another 10% or so for being able to target characters and giving re-rolls, there probably won’t be problem.
The problem here is that you want to point him as if T4 2W models (by far his most optimal target) are the only units in the game, but they aren't. In fact they aren't even the most common, by a long shot. If you want to use that context when calculating points cost then you also have to take into consideration what he brings to the table when there are no Shining Spears or Primaris on the table, which is most games.
As a Tyranids player for example, I can confidently state that there is not a single unit in my army that is afraid of this dude. I mean, maybe biovores, but there is no way in hell he will ever get into range to shoot at biovores when up against a horde list. So if you set this dude down on the table and he's more then a 100 points I would laugh in your face and ask if we were supposed to be playing a fluffy narrative game, because playing him into 'nids in a competitive match would basically be trolling. That's also the case for Daemons, Tau and other factions. Go ahead, kill 24 points of gaunts or 2 warriors (average rolls). After that he dies. At the 150 point mark that people are suggesting here he would be completely awful in a TAC environment. 60% of the time he's a guardsmen officer bringing a re-roll 1s aura, with shooting that's good for a single model but in practical terms mediocre against the majority of units types in the game. Rather then pointing him as if he's this one-man army who's assassinating Guilliman, I would make him 1-per-detachment, or a named character like Marbo (which is basically what he is).
The conjecture about this unit reminds me of all the theory-crafting around snipers at the advent of 8th. Anyone remember when Dakka was adamant that ratlings would be a mandatory pick in any Imperial army and that characters were doomed.
I don't know why you're theorizing about him killing regular units. He's built to kill characters. Just because nids have fewer weaker characters doesn't mean he can't find purchase against most other armies. Be a shame if he were to take out Neurothropes though.
Just because your list might not have something for him to kill doesn't mean he shouldn't be costed according to his abilities.
Daemons are quite vulnerable. Skulltaker? Dead. Changeling? Dead. Scribes? Dead. Tau? It'd be a shame if you were to happen to lose that fireblade buffing your all your fire warriors. A couple of them can take a Coldstar.
Ahriman - the lynchpin of tons of armies? 4.5 wounds, which means he's either dead or damn near close to it.
And imagine if the old table stays and he can shoot twice. If he's 1 per - that might make it fine if he was 90 to 120 points - you still need to pay for what he brings.
Kelermorph does average 3 damage to Neurothrope (it has 5W). And Neurothropes aren't as good anymore now that they are bumped to 90pts, but even at 90 I think that's probably going to be well cheaper than he is, I'm thinking he's at about ~150pts based on the KT cost. Back when they were good at 70, he'd have to kill 2 to make that back, that's just not a good model vs Nids like ever even against worser Neurothropes, Blaxican is right. I also think he's right that many lists will share the same thing. Just my opinion.
SHUPPET wrote: The point was that if you are arguing that he was given a damage buff to reflect his skill, why is a gun equally as strong in the hands of a space marine chapter master trained to use it for 100's of years, and a guardsmen trained for a fraction of that time, who also lacks all the superhuman skill enhancing modifications?
Why is a genetically-enhanced superhuman with decades of experience and technologically-augmented senses no more effective with a bolter than an Imperial Guard lieutenant with no combat experience who got his post through nepotism?
This is a game with a very limited design space, and few pretensions to consistency, let alone realism. Stats are assigned more for narrative effect than as a realistic assessment of their comparative ballistic performance. Of course a game as hero-oriented as 40K is going to give its three-armed Clint Eastwood expy better damage output than Generic Rank-And-File Space Marine #87,389, even if the lore suggests that the latter is a Mary Sue whose 4s-across-the-board statline represents the pinnacle of combat ability.
SHUPPET wrote: Kelermorph does average 3 damage to Neurothrope (it has 5W). And Neurothropes aren't as good anymore now that they are bumped to 90pts, but even at 90 I think that's probably going to be well cheaper than he is, I'm thinking he's at about ~150pts based on the KT cost. Back when they were good at 70, he'd have to kill 2 to make that back, that's just not a good model vs Nids like ever even against worser Neurothropes, Blaxican is right. I also think he's right that many lists will share the same thing. Just my opinion.
Still - one should not expect a discount on a las pred simply because it finds itself fighting a 3++ Castellan rather than a tank without an invulnerable.
SHUPPET wrote: Kelermorph does average 3 damage to Neurothrope (it has 5W). And Neurothropes aren't as good anymore now that they are bumped to 90pts, but even at 90 I think that's probably going to be well cheaper than he is, I'm thinking he's at about ~150pts based on the KT cost. Back when they were good at 70, he'd have to kill 2 to make that back, that's just not a good model vs Nids like ever even against worser Neurothropes, Blaxican is right. I also think he's right that many lists will share the same thing. Just my opinion.
Think you've done your maths wrong there. Kellermorph averages 6 damage to a Neurothrope, killing it most of the time.
So, for me it's a total botch. I will never ever go to a game and expect that this model, with this pistol, this size has this ridiculous firepower. And since I don't play to memorize all the statline and and rules of other models in countless army... I think it's a design failure because whoever look at this model and gives him this statline did a bad job. Whatever the price will be.
Takes Orks as an example: roughly they do what you except.
This guy instead is a classic "gotcha" trick up your sleeves that will work once against skilled player, but that is unnecessary punishing and a gatekeeper versus new player.
Really a bad choice, design-wise.
Even if the model is wonderful.
In short, another poisoned fruit of GW internal policies.
If he targets a Space Marine Captain, he'll typically hit 9.17 times. Of those, he will typically wound 4.58 times. That leaves 1.5 wounding hits for 2 or 4 damage if the Captain has a Storm Shield, or 2.3 wounding hits for 4 (mos likely) or 6 damage if he relies on his Iron Halo. With the inherent variability from that many dice rolls, you aren't reliably killing a character worth well under 100 points. Terminator Captain will be the same as Storm Shield guy, and his extra wound is actually no use at all.
If he targets a Farseer worth 110+ points, he'll still get 9.17 hits, wounding 6.11 times. Half of those will be saved, 3 we are looking at 3 unsaved wounds, doing enough to typicall kill a Farseer. But it only requires one fewer wound roll or one extra save roll to be made, so is hardly a guarantee.
I think he has a good, but not guaranteed chance of killing 100ish points models. If he doesn't kill, he'll hurt them, at least. On the other hand, you have to hope your opponent has some suitable targets.
What about 2W models? Hellblasters will see 2 or maybe 3 dead, typically. Not making lots of points back. Terminators will lose one or two models...
I know I am talking about "typical" rolls, but the results will be very variable both up and down. Total overkill is no more useful than the exact number of wounds needed, and there will be plenty of times he doesn't finish the job. Against Marines, if he is more than 100 points, he is overcosted, in my opinion. Even if the marines include his optimal targets, he still has no guarantees.
Now, against some armies, Eldar, for example, he might be more useful. Against Tyranids, it already sounds like he is not all that amazing.
I dunno, he sounds really good, but not game-breaking.
So, for me it's a total botch. I will never ever go to a game and expect that this model, with this pistol, this size has this ridiculous firepower. And since I don't play to memorize all the statline and and rules of other models in countless army... I think it's a design failure because whoever look at this model and gives him this statline did a bad job. Whatever the price will be.
Takes Orks as an example: roughly they do what you except.
This guy instead is a classic "gotcha" trick up your sleeves that will work once against skilled player, but that is unnecessary punishing and a gatekeeper versus new player.
Really a bad choice, design-wise.
Even if the model is wonderful.
In short, another poisoned fruit of GW internal policies.
I find this post extremely over the top and reactionary.
Does the average Psyker look like he'll unleash the fury of the warp?
Do Imperial Assassin's, to a new player, look like this they would have the abilities and strengths they do?
No. Not at all.
If your opponent actively conceals the strength of his units in a friendly game, yeah he's a jerk. But calling this gatekeeping and poisoned fruit is laughably ridiculous.
SHUPPET wrote: Kelermorph does average 3 damage to Neurothrope (it has 5W). And Neurothropes aren't as good anymore now that they are bumped to 90pts, but even at 90 I think that's probably going to be well cheaper than he is, I'm thinking he's at about ~150pts based on the KT cost. Back when they were good at 70, he'd have to kill 2 to make that back, that's just not a good model vs Nids like ever even against worser Neurothropes, Blaxican is right. I also think he's right that many lists will share the same thing. Just my opinion.
Think you've done your maths wrong there. Kellermorph averages 6 damage to a Neurothrope, killing it most of the time.
(6×5÷6+5×5÷6)×.5×2÷3×2 = 6.11
Neurothropes are T4 with a 3+ invulnerable save, not a 5+ save. Only 1/3 of wunds go unsaved.
SHUPPET wrote: Kelermorph does average 3 damage to Neurothrope (it has 5W). And Neurothropes aren't as good anymore now that they are bumped to 90pts, but even at 90 I think that's probably going to be well cheaper than he is, I'm thinking he's at about ~150pts based on the KT cost. Back when they were good at 70, he'd have to kill 2 to make that back, that's just not a good model vs Nids like ever even against worser Neurothropes, Blaxican is right. I also think he's right that many lists will share the same thing. Just my opinion.
Think you've done your maths wrong there. Kellermorph averages 6 damage to a Neurothrope, killing it most of the time.
(6×5÷6+5×5÷6)×.5×2÷3×2 = 6.11
Neurothropes are T4 with a 3+ invulnerable save, not a 5+ save. Only 1/3 of wunds go unsaved.
(6×5÷6+5×5÷6) is 9.17 hits,
x0.5 is 4.58 wounds
x.33 is 1.5 unsaved wounds
is 3 damage.
His maths is right.
You're right, apologies to SHUPPET. I got his saves the wrong way round for some reason!
This guy instead is a classic "gotcha" trick up your sleeves that will work once against skilled player, but that is unnecessary punishing and a gatekeeper versus new player.
No hyperbole here at all. /s
There are ton of units that can be overly punishing against a new player. To claim that this unit is somehow more so is just exaggeration.
It is starting to feel like some people are engaging in catastrophic thinking, ie. that only the worst case scenario is is going to happen regardless of the randomness of the die or situation.
Most of the maths here assumes he only gets to shoot once per turn. If he drops in and is likely to fire twice because muh cult ambush the numbers are doubled. Not to mention the fact that he also buffs other units and that the units he is designed to kill are buffing characters themselves, so suddenly rerolls are disappearing, units can no longer advance and charge, psychic powers go away etc
His worth is significantly more than the total value of the models he can kill. The death of a lynchpin character can win or lose a game and is often debilitating to the receiving end.
I think the negative reaction/high anticipated points cost for this model is due to three primary reasons, one; there seems to be little/nothing a player can do to counter a kelermorph killing a character with impunity (excluding screening), which isn't fun, two; the units the kelermorph is designed to kill are generally those models players spent more time painting because they are their character models and three; a ton of str 4 D2 shots hitting on 2s hurts units that were already a poor choice competitively and the need to screen only heightens the requirement for cheap chaff units, something we currently see all over the meta anyway.
But we don't yet know what the cult ambush table will look like, so his chances of shooting twice may well be miniscule. All of this is in an information void.
As for those buffs he is eliminating, they are built into the cost of the thing he is killing. If you want to count them separately as something else he is elminating, you have to reduce the relative cost of the target. ALL models are worth something other than what they can kill. Space Marine Scouts, for example, who act as troops and area-denial, but to whom this guy has been favourably compared.
If time-spent-painting is an issue on how quickly models should die, then my Storm Guardians should have a 2+ invulnerable save.
Ultimately, we need to see the ambush table and his points before any of us can make a final judgement. And if they do the points wrong, they'll change.
SHUPPET wrote: The point was that if you are arguing that he was given a damage buff to reflect his skill, why is a gun equally as strong in the hands of a space marine chapter master trained to use it for 100's of years, and a guardsmen trained for a fraction of that time, who also lacks all the superhuman skill enhancing modifications?
Why is a genetically-enhanced superhuman with decades of experience and technologically-augmented senses no more effective with a bolter than an Imperial Guard lieutenant with no combat experience who got his post through nepotism?
This is a game with a very limited design space, and few pretensions to consistency, let alone realism. Stats are assigned more for narrative effect than as a realistic assessment of their comparative ballistic performance. Of course a game as hero-oriented as 40K is going to give its three-armed Clint Eastwood expy better damage output than Generic Rank-And-File Space Marine #87,389, even if the lore suggests that the latter is a Mary Sue whose 4s-across-the-board statline represents the pinnacle of combat ability.
no I agree with that, which is why my comparison was to other SM characters. I know WHY they did it, I get the motivation, but I feel it's anti thematic and I don't agree with it. That's my constructive criticism to GW, not they they are reading. m
SHUPPET wrote: Kelermorph does average 3 damage to Neurothrope (it has 5W). And Neurothropes aren't as good anymore now that they are bumped to 90pts, but even at 90 I think that's probably going to be well cheaper than he is, I'm thinking he's at about ~150pts based on the KT cost. Back when they were good at 70, he'd have to kill 2 to make that back, that's just not a good model vs Nids like ever even against worser Neurothropes, Blaxican is right. I also think he's right that many lists will share the same thing. Just my opinion.
Still - one should not expect a discount on a las pred simply because it finds itself fighting a 3++ Castellan rather than a tank without an invulnerable.
I'm not saying he needs a discount. I don't even know his price yet. My point is that I agree with the speculation that he's going to be highly match up dependant, and that he's not gonna be cheap enough in points to just throw in without having a real good match up.
I'm personally a fan of this very directed tools. They let you shore up poor matches in a list at the cost of maybe some measure of dominance in a winning match. I don't think they SHOULD cost so little that they are an easy decision to include, I think that defeats the idea.
An Actual Englishman wrote: Most of the maths here assumes he only gets to shoot once per turn. If he drops in and is likely to fire twice because muh cult ambush the numbers are doubled. Not to mention the fact that he also buffs other units and that the units he is designed to kill are buffing characters themselves, so suddenly rerolls are disappearing, units can no longer advance and charge, psychic powers go away etc
He still only has a 1/6 chance of getting shoot twice. He needs to roll a natural 2. Anything higher will not allow him to shoot twice.
In fact, currently, a natural roll of 4 or more does nothing, because there is no entry on the table for a 7/8/9. As in he doesn't get to deploy, by RAW.
That just says to me we can't assume anything about Ambush once the Codex drops, so let's not get all Chicken Little about him shooting twice please.
This guy instead is a classic "gotcha" trick up your sleeves that will work once against skilled player, but that is unnecessary punishing and a gatekeeper versus new player.
No hyperbole here at all. /s
There are ton of units that can be overly punishing against a new player. To claim that this unit is somehow more so is just exaggeration.
It is starting to feel like some people are engaging in catastrophic thinking, ie. that only the worst case scenario is is going to happen regardless of the randomness of the die or situation.
That is true, the question is how must take is he going to be. If a punishing model requires the opponent to be an a hole and tailor vs a new player with a unit he would never ever take in a real game, it is much less of a problem, then a unit that will always be taken and gives a new player the feeling he picked his army the wrong way.
Plus the dude is going to be cheap cash wise. It is one thing to be shown the real w40k by someone fielding a castellan vs someone using 3 dudes he build out of his troops box. This makes people rethink getting in to the game, becaue they will fear and rightfully so, that w40k is full of such units and combos.
BlaxicanX wrote: The problem here is that you want to point him as if T4 2W models (by far his most optimal target) are the only units in the game, but they aren't. In fact they aren't even the most common, by a long shot. If you want to use that context when calculating points cost then you also have to take into consideration what he brings to the table when there are no Shining Spears or Primaris on the table, which is most games.
You're aware by that argument lascannons should be free, because when you face pure foot army of IG, Orks, GSC, or Tyranids, they will kill less 5 pts models than a free bolter?
If you really can't see the value of removing a lynchpin character model virtually at will, something 90% of the armies in the game relies on, I don't know what to tell you. Even vehicle based armies often have a character to repair or buff them, and removing them will delete hundreds of points of extra wounds or shooting that character would have provided. And unless you play knights, you can't even prepare for him by not taking characters seeing they are kinda mandatory in almost all armies and all.
The 5 shot pistol is literally UZI, though, compact machine gun that can be only fired with any accuracy because the wielder literally has steel arms. And as I stated in Kill Team thread, no one would have objected if the Keler Sue could fire six S4 - shots, or even nine S3 - to represent him being amazingly fast with guns. It's the combination of more D2 garbage coupled with AP only found on stuff like heavy bolters and autocannons (even closest frakking DW equivalent is huge, two handed cannon an Astartes has to fire with both hands that still has far worse stats than something this guy cobbled in a cave despite being best SM, Inquisition, and Admech could provide) that rubs the people the wrong way.
C4790M wrote: I don’t understand the reason why everyone is freaking over the dudes guns. He’s supposed the be the GSC’s version of Batman or Arrow, he’s probably got super tactical gunslinging abilities that let him hit weak spots for massive damage, and GW wanted to save some data sheet space by incorporating this into the gun stats rather than spelling it out on an ability
We already have one of those. Cypher not only used to have BS10, highest possible at all, even higher than literal strongest avatars of god of war, thousands of years old Eldar gunslingers, or millions of years old impossibly advanced murder machines, he was HH Dark Angel, legion that got best equipment Imperium had, including most of relic dark age guns Emperor could find.
Spoiler alert, his bolt pistol still comes nowhere near to the homemade junk GSC can apparently mass produce in a basement. Gee, maybe Emperor should hire one of those instead of mucking about with primarch project because this guy makes both space marines and their gear look like utter, colossal failures...
Ultimately, we need to see the ambush table and his points before any of us can make a final judgement. And if they do the points wrong, they'll change.
Like those Guardsmen and Castellans that got appropriate re-costings right?
Ultimately, we need to see the ambush table and his points before any of us can make a final judgement. And if they do the points wrong, they'll change.
Like those Guardsmen and Castellans that got appropriate re-costings right?
Oh wait.
YAAAAAWN
Fifty is right. Please everyone stop saying the guy is insane until we actually know how the army will work.
I guess now I know the real reason for space wolves to be in Vigilus.
Those megatech D2 pistols with heavybolter-like ap and assault cannon's rate of fire put to shame even necron/eldar tecnology. Getting this weapon for the Emperor's finest could turn the table to the Imperium side more than primaris project. Even blackstone fortress do not has such technology inside.
I guess I can start entite narrative campaign about the REAL reason why everyone is fighting on the Vigilus. Chaos, eldars and Imperium are trying to get their hans on those megapistols. But even in the Imperium there are rivalry between Astartes and Admech, both wants to put their hands on those pistols first, and the winner will have the ability to change the fate of the entire galaxy
Silver144 wrote: I guess now I know the real reason for space wolves to be in Vigilus.
Those megatech D2 pistols with heavybolter-like ap and assault cannon's rate of fire put to shame even necron/eldar tecnology. Getting this weapon for the Emperor's finest could turn the table to the Imperium side more than primaris project. Even blackstone fortress do not has such technology inside.
I guess I can start entite narrative campaign about the REAL reason why everyone is fighting on the Vigilus. Chaos, eldars and Imperium are trying to get their hans on those megapistols. But even in the Imperium there are rivalry between Astartes and Admech, both wants to put their hands on those pistols first, and the winner will have the ability to change the fate of the entire galaxy
Custodes have pistol 2 range 18" strenght 6 ap -2 d2 hit roll 6 scores additional hit.
BlaxicanX wrote: The conjecture about this unit reminds me of all the theory-crafting around snipers at the advent of 8th. Anyone remember when Dakka was adamant that ratlings would be a mandatory pick in any Imperial army and that characters were doomed.
To be fair Ratlings were nerfed in CA17 (I think, might have been before).
But yeah, the reality of it was that the sort of characters you can kill with snipers are not critical game pieces. At best you get a normal(ish) return for your points against a very small set of targets. This is why ratlings, Eldar rangers, Deathmarks and sniper scouts (outside of Guilliman fish for 6s builds and even then) are not staples of the meta.
I do wonder whether ratlings might help in the timeless Imperial Soup vs Eldar Soup, welcome to 8th edition tournament meta - but I imagine more inquiring minds than mine have concluded getting the doom-casting biker can't be done.
===
Also you would expect Las Preds to get a price reduction because it now consistently ends up fighting targets with invul saves, that can move without the heavy penalty and pack more firepower for the same points. This is a good example of creep. The Pred was okay in the Index, today its decidedly not. Points reductions have helped, but not by nearly enough.
I mean I think the forum demands I don't do this - because poor old sisters players - but consider that an exorcist is just 125 points for D6 range 48" dark lance shots (and T8 6++). A pred meanwhile has one lower toughness, one fewer wounds and no invul is 180 with 4 lascannons. I can see the argument for S9 AP-3 versus S8 AP-4 (especially in a invul soaked meta), and the reliability of 4 shots vs D6, but a near 50% difference? In case its not clear - I think the exorcist is totally fine in the current meta, the issue is that the pred started average to bad and today is rubbish.
SHUPPET wrote: The point was that if you are arguing that he was given a damage buff to reflect his skill, why is a gun equally as strong in the hands of a space marine chapter master trained to use it for 100's of years, and a guardsmen trained for a fraction of that time, who also lacks all the superhuman skill enhancing modifications?
Why is a genetically-enhanced superhuman with decades of experience and technologically-augmented senses no more effective with a bolter than an Imperial Guard lieutenant with no combat experience who got his post through nepotism?
This is a game with a very limited design space, and few pretensions to consistency, let alone realism. Stats are assigned more for narrative effect than as a realistic assessment of their comparative ballistic performance. Of course a game as hero-oriented as 40K is going to give its three-armed Clint Eastwood expy better damage output than Generic Rank-And-File Space Marine #87,389, even if the lore suggests that the latter is a Mary Sue whose 4s-across-the-board statline represents the pinnacle of combat ability.
Oh my Gods, the stupid Bolter thread argument is leaking
C4790M wrote: I don’t understand the reason why everyone is freaking over the dudes guns. He’s supposed the be the GSC’s version of Batman or Arrow, he’s probably got super tactical gunslinging abilities that let him hit weak spots for massive damage, and GW wanted to save some data sheet space by incorporating this into the gun stats rather than spelling it out on an ability
We already have one of those. Cypher not only used to have BS10, highest possible at all, even higher than literal strongest avatars of god of war, thousands of years old Eldar gunslingers, or millions of years old impossibly advanced murder machines, he was HH Dark Angel, legion that got best equipment Imperium had, including most of relic dark age guns Emperor could find.
Spoiler alert, his bolt pistol still comes nowhere near to the homemade junk GSC can apparently mass produce in a basement. Gee, maybe Emperor should hire one of those instead of mucking about with primarch project because this guy makes both space marines and their gear look like utter, colossal failures...
Thank you! We have rules to reflect being an incredible shot, and we have a precedent for how its reflected on the tabletop. Either way this guy got treatment that other comparable units did not, even if you homebrew up some lore explanation "obviously it's just this". Well, it's not actually. This reaching, to immediately dismiss the criticism to the feel of a unit thematically and acting as though you can't even comprehend how people couldn't fill in the gaps, even tho there is no precedent for your personal excuse you made up, and the fact that it STILL leaves the same consistencies, just screams fanboyism to me. I'm sure you do understand the criticism you just wanted to dismiss it.
Silver144 wrote: I guess now I know the real reason for space wolves to be in Vigilus.
Those megatech D2 pistols with heavybolter-like ap and assault cannon's rate of fire put to shame even necron/eldar tecnology. Getting this weapon for the Emperor's finest could turn the table to the Imperium side more than primaris project. Even blackstone fortress do not has such technology inside.
I guess I can start entite narrative campaign about the REAL reason why everyone is fighting on the Vigilus. Chaos, eldars and Imperium are trying to get their hans on those megapistols. But even in the Imperium there are rivalry between Astartes and Admech, both wants to put their hands on those pistols first, and the winner will have the ability to change the fate of the entire galaxy
Custodes have pistol 2 range 18" strenght 6 ap -2 d2 hit roll 6 scores additional hit.
C4790M wrote: I don’t understand the reason why everyone is freaking over the dudes guns. He’s supposed the be the GSC’s version of Batman or Arrow, he’s probably got super tactical gunslinging abilities that let him hit weak spots for massive damage, and GW wanted to save some data sheet space by incorporating this into the gun stats rather than spelling it out on an ability
We already have one of those. Cypher not only used to have BS10, highest possible at all, even higher than literal strongest avatars of god of war, thousands of years old Eldar gunslingers, or millions of years old impossibly advanced murder machines, he was HH Dark Angel, legion that got best equipment Imperium had, including most of relic dark age guns Emperor could find.
Spoiler alert, his bolt pistol still comes nowhere near to the homemade junk GSC can apparently mass produce in a basement. Gee, maybe Emperor should hire one of those instead of mucking about with primarch project because this guy makes both space marines and their gear look like utter, colossal failures...
Thank you! We have rules to reflect being an incredible shot, and we have a precedent for how its reflected on the tabletop. Either way this guy got treatment that other comparable units did not, even if you homebrew up some lore explanation "obviously it's just this". Well, it's not actually. This reaching, to immediately dismiss the criticism to the feel of a unit thematically and acting as though you can't even comprehend how people couldn't fill in the gaps, even tho there is no precedent for your personal excuse you made up, and the fact that it STILL leaves the same consistencies, just screams fanboyism to me. I'm sure you do understand the criticism you just wanted to dismiss it.
I understand the criticism, I just don’t see why its a big deal? Its a cool model with a cool special rule, and weapons to make it worth taking. This is way better than being disappointed by new models/units, like when Sly Marbo, or all the Ork Speed Freaks stuff came out. It doesn’t shatter the lore of the 40k universe, at worst is a minor inconsistency of lore/rules.
And that's where I'd argue that it's a cool model with a bogus special rule. Reduce the damage of the pistol to '1' and I'd think "okay, that's cool". Damage 2 means that every once in a while this guy is going to roll well and do an obscene amount of damage to either a squad, or a character (possibly several, since he could in theory fire his pistol at three separate targets).
If, God forbid, this is not limited to a single model, it'll become a really boring auto-take option for GSC even in a tournament setting. "Oh, okay, your first turn (or whatever the new GSC ambush is) you're going to absolutely pop those X dudes up and kill off any sub-character or special squad I need in the game and there's nothing I can do about it". That's not cool, it's...lame. It's not Ork-boyz-360 dumb, but it's definitely a poor design choice.
I'm not terribly interested in the statistical average of what he will do, but rather the table-flipping moments he will cause when you roll really well. That's not fun for your opponent.
Given his stat line, I suspect this'll be a dirt cheap character, a throw-away, and will do plenty of damage before he's immediately shot off the table. If he's say...65 points, which I think is where he'll land, you're going to have that handful of games where he pops up and shoots dead 6-7 Hellblasters or something and you're going to get a solid "feth you" from your opponent. It won't happen often, but it'll be a lame, souring experience when it does.
I'm not terribly interested in the statistical average of what he will do, but rather the table-flipping moments he will cause when you roll really well. That's not fun for your opponent.
I agree completely with Elbows. There are 2 major problems for me. Firstly, the fact he has weapons that are simply far and away superior to pretty much any other similar weapons in the game, including every single Relic pistol that exists. It's too much for suspension of disbelief IMO.
Then you've just got the stack of special rules that lead to completely boneheaded non-interactive gameplay. There's no opportunity for interesting play and counterplay here and that leads to frustration.
I'm not terribly interested in the statistical average of what he will do, but rather the table-flipping moments he will cause when you roll really well. That's not fun for your opponent.
Ah, so like Smash Captains.
I agree, Smash Captains should be refactored.
More or less, yes? There are plenty of things in this game which are not fun, or cool, but just boring for your opponent...they pretty much all suck. Throw Harlequin's stupid-as-feth haywire jetbikes on that list as well.
I'm not terribly interested in the statistical average of what he will do, but rather the table-flipping moments he will cause when you roll really well. That's not fun for your opponent.
Ah, so like Smash Captains.
I agree, Smash Captains should be refactored.
More or less, yes? There are plenty of things in this game which are not fun, or cool, but just boring for your opponent...they pretty much all suck. Throw Harlequin's stupid-as-feth haywire jetbikes on that list as well.
Well, I would say that the Smash Captains are kinda cool even though they are really annoying to deal with. Technically I think the only problem with them is the Storm shield and relic storm shields that half their damage. I don't mind a Smash Captain getting me while my guard is down, because that is on me. What I do get tired of is trying to kill those bastards and it just takes wave after wave after wave of stuff to kill him because of that sweet 3++ invuln.
Call me an optimist but so far I think I'll dislike Smash Captains more than the Gunslinger as it feels like I can kill the Gunslinger in a single round rather quickly(assuming no extra FnP, halving damage rules). Only time will tell though.
Cybtroll wrote: Smash Captains have already been refactored, right?
They no longer Fly during the charge, so they can be always screened away from a juicy target.
My biggest problem with smash captains is one they are are as an individual unit are to strong for the cost. The other is that you can take multiple with no additional marines on the field. Two captains fighting on the same battle field is rare, hell even having more than one company of marines on a planet is rare. I wish the game had more limits on what you can take in a normal game to push it closer to the background and leave the nonsense for Apoc.
I'm not terribly interested in the statistical average of what he will do, but rather the table-flipping moments he will cause when you roll really well. That's not fun for your opponent.
Ah, so like Smash Captains.
I agree, Smash Captains should be refactored.
The difference is that smash captins are one of the few good things in BA codex. This dude comes to nids, which have more then 2 models. I understand that the opponents of people using BA wouldn't care, but the impact would be totaly different. Without a smash captin, BA are just weaker ultramarines.
Cybtroll wrote: Smash Captains have already been refactored, right?
They no longer Fly during the charge, so they can be always screened away from a juicy target.
My biggest problem with smash captains is one they are are as an individual unit are to strong for the cost. The other is that you can take multiple with no additional marines on the field. Two captains fighting on the same battle field is rare, hell even having more than one company of marines on a planet is rare. I wish the game had more limits on what you can take in a normal game to push it closer to the background and leave the nonsense for Apoc.
Ok, but why do people take two of those units? It is not like libararians and chaplains with packs are cool and valid options, and people are just a holes and pick 2 cpts. It is more like for the points, only mefiston maybe comes close to being a valid HQ option. You could say the same thing about GK, every army is GK in NDK with sometimes draigo added. Every other HQ option is just so bad costed and has so bad rules, that no one would ever want to take them.
I have very little expiriance with w40k, but from what I see GW can nerf stuff so hard no one uses the units anymore, but buffing is not something they are good at.
I don't play BA, so I shouldn't care, but what I think would happen is that the cpt would end up being a non entity, while the buffs to other BA stuff would be no where near as powerful to make the army good.
Karol wrote: I have very little expiriance with w40k, but from what I see GW can nerf stuff so hard no one uses the units anymore, but buffing is not something they are good at.
I don't play BA, so I shouldn't care, but what I think would happen is that the cpt would end up being a non entity, while the buffs to other BA stuff would be no where near as powerful to make the army good.
Well, GW's just kinda incompetent at rules. (And they do NOT have an excuse for that.)
But I'm talking theoreticals here, not what's gonna happen. And using hyperbole to make a point.
I think they know very well what they want. There is no way to randomly get eldar synergies as good well as they work now. Or give IG and knights such points cost that they fit perfectly in to a list, with an option to switch out a knight for something else, like the cpt for example.
They also seem to be great at nerfing, if they want to nerf something the unit is dead. It is never fixed, it is always unusable. If they don't want to nerf something, then we get something like the dark reapers. Changed four or five times, but still taken by eldar.
On the other hand GW trying to make stuff good or better, ends with a lot of hype and not much substance.
They also seem to be great at nerfing, if they want to nerf something the unit is dead. It is never fixed, it is always unusable. If they don't want to nerf something, then we get something like the dark reapers. Changed four or five times, but still taken by eldar.
That's a bogus statement. Dark Reapers are decently costed at this point. What people have issues with is Ynnari and Doom.
If, God forbid, this is not limited to a single model, it'll become a really boring auto-take option for GSC even in a tournament setting. "Oh, okay, your first turn (or whatever the new GSC ambush is) you're going to absolutely pop those X dudes up and kill off any sub-character or special squad I need in the game and there's nothing I can do about it". That's not cool, it's...lame. It's not Ork-boyz-360 dumb, but it's definitely a poor design choice.
Yep that's absolutely correct - there's simply not a thing at all that can be done! Some people will say "screen your characters with your army you silly git, they have only 12" range", others will say "put on your thinking cap and put the tiniest amount of thought into list building and strategy in deployment", and I'm sure someone will suggest "conceal them within terrain, or reserves, or block line of sight to them like you aren't a complete numpty", but what do they know eh?
You are entirely right, if your opponent dedicates up to 1/4 of his entire list on 3 Kelermorphs, who have to deploy using a cult ambush ruleset that we haven't even seen yet, then there is just no counter-play to that - you simply lose immediately.
Excellent competitive commentary as per usual from Elbows.
If, God forbid, this is not limited to a single model, it'll become a really boring auto-take option for GSC even in a tournament setting. "Oh, okay, your first turn (or whatever the new GSC ambush is) you're going to absolutely pop those X dudes up and kill off any sub-character or special squad I need in the game and there's nothing I can do about it". That's not cool, it's...lame. It's not Ork-boyz-360 dumb, but it's definitely a poor design choice.
Yep that's absolutely correct - there's simply not a thing at all that can be done! Some people will say "screen your characters with your army you silly git, they have only 12" range", others will say "put on your thinking cap and put the tiniest amount of thought into list building and strategy in deployment", and I'm sure some smartass will suggest "conceal them within terrain, or reserves, or block line of sight to them like you aren't a complete numpty", but what do those scrubs know?
You are entirely right, if your opponent dedicates up to 1/4 of his entire list on 3 Kelermorphs, who have to deploy using a cult ambush ruleset that we haven't even seen yet, then there is just no counter-play to that - you simply lose immediately.
To be honest, if the existence of the Kelermorph forces players to have to choose between maximizing the effects of auras versus protecting characters, I consider that a win. Right now characters are just a little too untouchable for the effects they provide to nearby units, and as far as I'm concerned, the more difficult decisions a player has to make, the better the game is for it.
Don't most armys have bodyguard units of some kinds? If the Kelermorph does become strong, it's not as if there isn't counters besides screening.
As for the pistols *Shrug* If they were called "Liberator Handcannon with Manstopper rounds", would that be better? It's one exception to an army that lacks these kinds of weapons so having one guy with decent weapons is not some affont to the lore.
Agreed with both the above posts. Also, a few weeks ago, a leaker who got other things right already like the Biophagus, said Cult Ambush was being turned into blips. This is the first anyone had ever heard of the idea. Today, the pre-order for GSC confirms that the book comes with Blip tokens for cult ambush, meaning that this leaker, who has already been confirmed accurate on other points, was almost certainly telling the truth here.
Cult Ambush leaked rules:
Spoiler:
(cult ambush): It's been completely overhauled. Essentially, you get a number of "blip tokens" (which are included with the codex) equal to the number of units you have in Cult Ambush reserves, plus one spare token for every two units in reserves (to use as "decoy tokens". After both sides have finished deploying, you get to place your tokens down anywhere on the board that is more than 9" from enemy units. At the end of any of your movement phases (including first turn) you may flip over a blip token to reveal a unit in cult ambush reserves (you choose which one, if any, appears there - if nothing appears there it's one of your "decoy" tokens). They must also be flipped if an enemy unit goes within 9" of a blip token. There are a number of mechanics that allow you to place more blip tokens down and move them.
If an enemy unit moves within 9" of them, you place down the GSC unit as close as possible to the blip token.
So if a guard squad advances onto the token and surrounds it, you then place the GSC unit as close as possible (but outside of 1" of enemy units. If they move to 3" away from it, you just place it down on the token (but outside of 1" of enemy units). One model from the unit must be centered on the token if possible.
This is a barebones overview (he talked about a lot of things) giving you a ton more counterplay options than last edition, and as we know from the Kelermorph's rules, there is also a success roll or table of some manner involved.
So basically, there is a ton of options to deal with him cult ambushing in on your characters. Ambushing him may not yet even be the best way to play a character who requires such precision - we'll have to wait and see. Let's at least do that before making these extreme declarations, yes?
If people could please stop begging for the game to be dumbed down just because they are really, really bad at it, thaaat'd be great. Level up your own play and I'm certain you will discover that there is a grey area somewhere in between "deploying on the very back corner of your board in a ball" and "auto-losing all of your critical characters to deepstrikers".
SHUPPET wrote: Agreed with both the above posts. Also, a few weeks ago, a leaker who got other things right already like the Biophagus, said Cult Ambush was being turned into blips. This is the first anyone had ever heard of the idea. Today, the pre-order for GSC confirms that the book comes with Blip tokens for cult ambush, meaning that this leaker, who has already been confirmed accurate on other points, was almost certainly telling the truth here.
Cult Ambush leaked rules:
Spoiler:
(cult ambush): It's been completely overhauled. Essentially, you get a number of "blip tokens" (which are included with the codex) equal to the number of units you have in Cult Ambush reserves, plus one spare token for every two units in reserves (to use as "decoy tokens". After both sides have finished deploying, you get to place your tokens down anywhere on the board that is more than 9" from enemy units. At the end of any of your movement phases (including first turn) you may flip over a blip token to reveal a unit in cult ambush reserves (you choose which one, if any, appears there - if nothing appears there it's one of your "decoy" tokens). They must also be flipped if an enemy unit goes within 9" of a blip token. There are a number of mechanics that allow you to place more blip tokens down and move them.
If an enemy unit moves within 9" of them, you place down the GSC unit as close as possible to the blip token.
So if a guard squad advances onto the token and surrounds it, you then place the GSC unit as close as possible (but outside of 1" of enemy units. If they move to 3" away from it, you just place it down on the token (but outside of 1" of enemy units). One model from the unit must be centered on the token if possible.
This is a barebones overview (he talked about a lot of things) giving you a ton more counterplay options than last edition, and as we know from the Kelermorph's rules, there is also a success roll or table of some manner involved.
So basically, there is a ton of options to deal with him cult ambushing in on your characters. Ambushing him may not yet even be the best way to play a character who requires such precision - we'll have to wait and see. Let's at least do that before making these extreme declarations, yes?
If people could please stop begging for the game to be dumbed down just because they are really, really bad at it, thaaat'd be great. Level up your own play and I'm certain you will discover that there is a grey area somewhere in between "deploying on the very back corner of your board in a ball" and "auto-losing all of your critical characters to deepstrikers".
This. One hundred per cent. The amount of Chicken Little hysteria here is nuts. Even for dakka. We have no idea how Cult Ambush will work. Added to that we have people complaining in one thread that the game lacks depth and then people here complaining that a hypothetical single model is going to destroy their armies single (triple?) handed. For goodness sake, there are umpteen ways to protect characters. Terrain, for instance. This dude definitely won't ignore line if sight. If people are forced to screen there fireblade more effectively, then that's a good thing. Right?
The difference is that smash captins are one of the few good things in BA codex. This dude comes to nids, which have more then 2 models. I understand that the opponents of people using BA wouldn't care, but the impact would be totaly different. Without a smash captin, BA are just weaker ultramarines.
Not sure if this was intentional or a mistake but you said "nids". If we are counting allied armies as well then BA have Castellans, Imperial Guard, Celestine, and ton of great stuff.
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So basically, there is a ton of options to deal with him cult ambushing in on your characters. Ambushing him may not yet even be the best way to play a character who requires such precision - we'll have to wait and see. Let's at least do that before making these extreme declarations, yes?
I agree 100%.
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Right now characters are just a little too untouchable for the effects they provide to nearby units, and as far as I'm concerned, the more difficult decisions a player has to make, the better the game is for it.
That is a good point.
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They also seem to be great at nerfing, if they want to nerf something the unit is dead. It is never fixed, it is always unusable. If they don't want to nerf something, then we get something like the dark reapers. Changed four or five times, but still taken by eldar.
Depends on what type of Eldar you run. If you are running Ynnari then they are probably still taken as you can effectively double their worth with Word of the Phoenix. For more standard Eldar they are good, but huge point sink so you may or may not get your points back.
Which is why I think they need to change Ynnari drastically. They are just too effective of a force multiplier to be used as something to balance against.
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The amount of Chicken Little hysteria here is nuts. Even for dakka. We have no idea how Cult Ambush will work. Added to that we have people complaining in one thread that the game lacks depth and then people here complaining that a hypothetical single model is going to destroy their armies single (triple?) handed. For goodness sake, there are umpteen ways to protect characters.
I know in fiction gunslingers tend to become legends in their own right. Apparently the gunslinger for GSC became a legend without ever touching the table.
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Don't most armys have bodyguard units of some kinds? If the Kelermorph does become strong, it's not as if there isn't counters besides screening.
As someone who has tried to run specialized character hunters I can attest to the fact that bodyguards are a thing and usually ruin whatever machinations I had in mind. So at this point I usually just don't do character hunting unless the enemy maneuvered badly and left his characters exposed. Even then you'll just get heroic intervention and all that crap and you've managed to kill a bodyguard or two and then lose your precious character hunter.
Woah a lot of crying over a 'strong' looking option for GSC, which fits their theme very well in my eyes.
Strong output, short range, about as tough as wet paper once you land the hit on him.. Yep it seems pretty par for course for them. Nothing breaking the army theme. Oh his guns are better than a lot of other options in the 'fluff'? Eh maybe it's outlined in the book, maybe it shoots charged bullets from the hivemind, or he's just that damn skilled with his reflexes, like the rest of you I don't know, but I will wait until I get my greedy little talons/claws on the codex before I decry the fluff implications.
He can ambush yes. He has good shooting vs characters, yes. He also gives GSC a good option in a unique way with clear downsides of his short range and all or nothing nature. If he fails to kill his target, or even if he DOES he is well within range to be charged/blown into oblivion because last I checked virtually nothing in the GSC codex can stand up to anywhere near the amount of firepower loaded into this edition.
And for everyone crying his pistols strength break the fluff/ immersion. 40k is inconsistent as hell. That is a large part of the attraction, anything is possible. ANYTHING! (except sanguinis coming back, sorry BA!)
Not sure if this was intentional or a mistake but you said "nids". If we are counting allied armies as well then BA have Castellans, Imperial Guard, Celestine, and ton of great stuff.
I know my english isn't good. What I ment is that if BA cpts get nerfed, then soup players won't use them and non soup BA players are going to have nothing to play with. While the existance of the gunslinger GSC character has a much limited impact on tyranid soup or non soup players. If he is great people will take him, if he is 250pts people won't, but they will take other good stuff.
Depends on what type of Eldar you run. If you are running Ynnari then they are probably still taken as you can effectively double their worth with Word of the Phoenix. For more standard Eldar they are good, but huge point sink so you may or may not get your points back.
Which is why I think they need to change Ynnari drastically. They are just too effective of a force multiplier to be used as something to balance against.
When was the last time GW made eldar bad or at least bottom tier, then? Because from the stories I hear, which maybe false, eldar are always at least very good. It is like non of the rules w40k works on apply to them. People say that if an army is bad, GW then makes it OP and the good armies are mad bad. But it seems to not be the true. And I can't find an explanation to it at all.
Not if the rest of the GSC codex is gak. Ie. if the GW gods are capricious the GSC codex could just as well end up as BA: Xenos with one good unit(or not).
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When was the last time GW made eldar bad or at least bottom tier, then? Because from the stories I hear, which maybe false, eldar are always at least very good. It is like non of the rules w40k works on apply to them. People say that if an army is bad, GW then makes it OP and the good armies are mad bad. But it seems to not be the true. And I can't find an explanation to it at all.
There was a time in 5th that Eldar were far from top tier. Basically the only builds were ton of War Walkers or a Seer Council on jetbikes(which all had to be kitbashed as the model did not exist for them) and at the end of 5th you saw some people make do with Footdar. Ton of other codexes were top tier then with Matt Ward's Grey Knight codex probably being quite high ranking at the time along with Necrons.
The truth is that the balancing for GW is pretty random with things going up and down willy nilly. In short there is no method to the madness. Craftworlds have just been lucky in escaping a doomed fate, but my guess is that the varied range that allows for various degrees of combat tends to protect it from any wild swings in balance. However, it is good to keep in mind that all top tier Eldar units have received heavy nerfs over time, whether it be Starcannons, Scatterbikes, or wraithknights. You don't see these things on the table often, but they used to dominate the game at the time. As someone who has collected Eldar for a long time I can say that their line is very fickle and requires you to own quite a few of each and every unit if you want to be competitive or stand a chance.
To some extent I think Eldar benefit from being sufficiently varied that they have a good pick whatever the current meta (either base rules of 40k, or what people are playing).
Really though this is a function of points. The special rules made Scatbikes and Wraithknights good in 7th - but if they had cost considerably more that wouldn't have mattered. Same for Starcannon spam, then the Falcon being broken, then after the 5th ed blip Wave Serpent spam.
You occasionally see people say otherwise - but there is nothing inherently wrong with the GK codex - it might be bit dull, but if everything was suddenly half the points it is now GK would walk every game. The issue is that everything is too expensive.
Anyway not totally the right thread, but kind of sad the female Magus is just a Magus. Its nice to avoid duplicate models if you want to run 2 (someone reading this with 3 copies of the old HQ set looks sad) I guess but meh.
You mean, guys who cost a lot of points, have standard wargear of their faction, instead of completely broken gak, who eat warlord traits, relic slots, and tons of CP for breakfast in order to be any effective, and then can still fail on poor dice roll, instead of being plug and play cheap unit deleter that just needs to show up within 12 inches to be good to go?
Yeah, these two things are totally comparable!
Though, I suppose you do have a point - if Kelly Sue is costed like BA captain and requires as many CP to work, he would be pretty OK, don't you think?
Eldarsif wrote: I know in fiction gunslingers tend to become legends in their own right. Apparently the gunslinger for GSC became a legend without ever touching the table.
Well, gee, I have no idea why someone who can outshoot and outdamage say Roboute Guilliman and his relic heavy bolter with trivial ease using some homemade junk for tiny fraction of the price might be something people don't like, all while making supposed tactical genius look like chump who can't even identify enemy officers and has to take potshots at random. Maybe it's the model's paint job?
Maybe characters are a problem, and need a solution. But, that solution could be something even remotely realistic, not immersion breaking nonsense better than whole squads of most elite SM like Sternguard or DW vets for small % of the price. For one, it makes you wonder why the hell Tyranids even bother with worthless gants or even warriors when they could breed this gant-sized guy instead and have a platoon of those kill whole SM chapters with no effort whatsoever.
As someone who has tried to run specialized character hunters I can attest to the fact that bodyguards are a thing and usually ruin whatever machinations I had in mind. So at this point I usually just don't do character hunting unless the enemy maneuvered badly and left his characters exposed. Even then you'll just get heroic intervention and all that crap and you've managed to kill a bodyguard or two and then lose your precious character hunter.
Do kindly look at the cost of Primaris bodyguards and consider this guy makes their 2+/3++ completely worthless as they need to eat MW to intercept anything. If he manages to kill just two of them he already took points cost of typical GSC character back, if four, which is not hard, he would need to cost more than BA captain to not make his points back and then some. You know not every army has access to broken xeno stuff like Tau cheap as peanuts drone wound erasers? If this guy manages to always take at least his points back, then he is complete no-brainer even if he doesn't kill characters, and that's without even considering GSC can simply take second one (or that bike sniper) to kill character once bodyguard are gone...
The only problem I see with this guy is that if his guns where a bunch of S3 Ap0 1D weapons what kind of rules he could need to be able to kill characters and not become a machinegun for killing hordes.
Chaos however needs a big ammount of charachters generally and has a low ammount of bodyguards, so to say this won't cause any issues is also a wrong statement.
I've read the rules for this guy and as many have said find them a bit much, so I decided to try and write down why I think that and others clearly don't.
I'm a long time 40K player and and have enjoyed the fluff and rules of the game for nearly 30 years.
I have a huge Imperial army with alot of blood angels and parts of most Imperial forces.
I also have lots of chaos with a heavy focus on Daemons.
I like the genestealer cults, great looking model range and interesting way of playing that is distinctly different to other armies. Tyranids were one of my first armies and lent very heavily on genestealers back then.
Obviously the points cost of this model will define whether he is "OP" or not but regardless of that I still find that his rules annoys me.
In part it is the stats of his pistols, again if they are costed appropriately they are perfectly fair in game terms but they do break my immersion in the game. When a small pistol armed model has the ability to deal such a huge ammount of damage it just doesn't sit right. Most people play this game because they enjoy the fluff, we could use coloured counters or scraps of paper but instead we spend alot of time and money on painting great looking models (the kelermorph looks great btw). The other part is that he has loads additional rules tacked on, does he really need to double the shots of his three rapid firing pistols? I may well be my long ingrained bias towards spacemarines that has been build up over the years but I don't think pistols picked up on an mining planet should be far more powerful than specifically designed weapons of war. I feel similar when playing against my friends acolyte hybrids and their mining equipment seems far more effective and better suited to combat than most standard melee weapons.
I think this feeling of being hard done by comes down to rules creep and jealousy on my part.
Not that the rules are unfair, if costed correctly everything can be fair but I think it comes from the fact that I play (and have for many years) two of the original factions in 40K and these are now seen as standard. Marines are the baseline of 40K and imperial equipment is seen as the starting point of basic weapon stats. When new factions and models are released GW obviously has to give them things that make them stand out from the older stuff and this is often done with fancy equipment and most often lots of additional rules.
I think it is these rules which likely fuels my feelings of jealousy and saying that they are a bit much, its mainly down to the fact that most of my armies (sm in particular) are a little more bland by comparison, our weapons are often just flat stat lines and characters have less abilities to play with and I've spent a great deal of time reading about how these are the mightiest of heroes.. They are not worse in game play as other things balance them but certainly are often less striking and interesting - thus jealousy.
Galas wrote: The only problem I see with this guy is that if his guns where a bunch of S3 Ap0 1D weapons what kind of rules he could need to be able to kill characters and not become a machinegun for killing hordes.
Something that lets him deal MW to characters specifically, for example.
Galas wrote: The only problem I see with this guy is that if his guns where a bunch of S3 Ap0 1D weapons what kind of rules he could need to be able to kill characters and not become a machinegun for killing hordes.
Something that lets him deal MW to characters specifically, for example.
That could be an option but to be honest I just hate Mortal Wounds as concept and execution even if in 8th they are much less common than in AoS.
Chaos however needs a big ammount of charachters generally and has a low ammount of bodyguards, so to say this won't cause any issues is also a wrong statement.
Tyranids have Tyrant Guard, and they only work on Hive Tyrants which don't have character protection anyway, so you can just shoot them with Lascannons or whatever.
Imperium have few that come to mind actually. Guard have a couple of special characters. Custodes have a stratagem that isn't very good. Marines have Calgar's guard, maybe others... Dark Angels don't get any though, which is what I play.
Tau are the masters of Bodyguarding, thanks to Shield Drones.
You mean, guys who cost a lot of points, have standard wargear of their faction, instead of completely broken gak, who eat warlord traits, relic slots, and tons of CP for breakfast in order to be any effective, and then can still fail on poor dice roll, instead of being plug and play cheap unit deleter that just needs to show up within 12 inches to be good to go?
Didn't know the Gunslinger had auto-hit, auto-mortal wound. I agree, that does change things. Also, where is the point cost for the Gunslinger. I must admit it is hard to have a discussion when people appear to have more information than myself so if you could point me to the codex leak I'd be happy to go read.
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Do kindly look at the cost of Primaris bodyguards and consider this guy makes their 2+/3++ completely worthless as they need to eat MW to intercept anything. If he manages to kill just two of them he already took points cost of typical GSC character back, if four, which is not hard, he would need to cost more than BA captain to not make his points back and then some. You know not every army has access to broken xeno stuff like Tau cheap as peanuts drone wound erasers?
I think I have stated before that I agree with the statement that Codex: Space Marines(and derivatives) are in a bad place and need to be revisited. I am not sure where you got the impression I thought the Space Marine codexes were good, just stated that the Smash Captains were annoying to deal with.
Also, if you have been playing with or against the gunslinger I think we would all love a a good battle report. I think most of us are thirsting for some more indepth GSC details and it would be greatly appreciated it if you could spare some time to write one of your recent games up.
(PS: I am super excited to see what the unit will cost eventually to see if it is truly broken or just storm in a glass.)
Galas wrote: The only problem I see with this guy is that if his guns where a bunch of S3 Ap0 1D weapons what kind of rules he could need to be able to kill characters and not become a machinegun for killing hordes.
The question is though, why does he have to be efficient. GW gave a ton of bad units to other armies, and random mooks with ramshackle weapons should have the stats that represent the poor state of their gear. The dude is running around with multiple relic tier autoguns.
Basically the only builds were ton of War Walkers or a Seer Council on jetbikes(which all had to be kitbashed as the model did not exist for them) and at the end of 5th you saw some people make do with Footdar.
man look at what your saying here. At some time in 5th eldar weren't the best army to play with. They had two builds, but they weren't the best. To me that is a definition of good . Do you know how many good builds bad armies normaly have? zero. Having a choice of two, but not being the best build, being considered as bad times for eldar just blows my mind. And let me guess, in 2ed, 3ed, 4th, 6th, 7th and now 8th they were just very good aka normal for eldar ? Is there like an eldar design dude at GW that just sits down every edition and pre writes the rules for them, to make them fun to play or something, because considering how random GW sometimes seems to be with their rules getting eldar right every time should have a low chance of happening. Well I guess at least the 5th ed eldar codex was bad I guess he was sick then or on leave.
Galas wrote: The only problem I see with this guy is that if his guns where a bunch of S3 Ap0 1D weapons what kind of rules he could need to be able to kill characters and not become a machinegun for killing hordes.
The question is though, why does he have to be efficient. GW gave a ton of bad units to other armies, and random mooks with ramshackle weapons should have the stats that represent the poor state of their gear. The dude is running around with multiple relic tier autoguns.
Because all units should be efficient for their intended purpose and based on their cost. Thats balance.
If he has poor stats then he should be dirty cheap but I'm not a fan of dirty cheap characters or in general armies because the ratio points:€ is horrible.
SHUPPET wrote: Agreed with both the above posts. Also, a few weeks ago, a leaker who got other things right already like the Biophagus, said Cult Ambush was being turned into blips. This is the first anyone had ever heard of the idea. Today, the pre-order for GSC confirms that the book comes with Blip tokens for cult ambush, meaning that this leaker, who has already been confirmed accurate on other points, was almost certainly telling the truth here.
Cult Ambush leaked rules:
Spoiler:
(cult ambush): It's been completely overhauled. Essentially, you get a number of "blip tokens" (which are included with the codex) equal to the number of units you have in Cult Ambush reserves, plus one spare token for every two units in reserves (to use as "decoy tokens". After both sides have finished deploying, you get to place your tokens down anywhere on the board that is more than 9" from enemy units. At the end of any of your movement phases (including first turn) you may flip over a blip token to reveal a unit in cult ambush reserves (you choose which one, if any, appears there - if nothing appears there it's one of your "decoy" tokens). They must also be flipped if an enemy unit goes within 9" of a blip token. There are a number of mechanics that allow you to place more blip tokens down and move them.
If an enemy unit moves within 9" of them, you place down the GSC unit as close as possible to the blip token.
So if a guard squad advances onto the token and surrounds it, you then place the GSC unit as close as possible (but outside of 1" of enemy units. If they move to 3" away from it, you just place it down on the token (but outside of 1" of enemy units). One model from the unit must be centered on the token if possible.
This is a barebones overview (he talked about a lot of things) giving you a ton more counterplay options than last edition, and as we know from the Kelermorph's rules, there is also a success roll or table of some manner involved.
So basically, there is a ton of options to deal with him cult ambushing in on your characters. Ambushing him may not yet even be the best way to play a character who requires such precision - we'll have to wait and see. Let's at least do that before making these extreme declarations, yes?
This... Makes no sense given that we know there is a cult ambush table that you roll on, given the kelermorphs own preview.
I mean, the tokens where talked about, we know they exist.
man look at what your saying here. At some time in 5th eldar weren't the best army to play with. They had two builds, but they weren't the best. To me that is a definition of good . Do you know how many good builds bad armies normaly have? zero. Having a choice of two, but not being the best build, being considered as bad times for eldar just blows my mind. And let me guess, in 2ed, 3ed, 4th, 6th, 7th and now 8th they were just very good aka normal for eldar ? Is there like an eldar design dude at GW that just sits down every edition and pre writes the rules for them, to make them fun to play or something, because considering how random GW sometimes seems to be with their rules getting eldar right every time should have a low chance of happening. Well I guess at least the 5th ed eldar codex was bad I guess he was sick then or on leave.
The War Walker wasn't a good build, just the only viable one that didn't need ton of kitbashing like the seer council. Seer council did okay though, but not many were running it as it required a lot of work to make the models and if you were a good player then footdar was viable. Never said that Eldar were bad, just that they have had low points.
Regarding the writer the Eldar have usually been written by Phil Kelly who has a decent track record of making armies viable and the fifth edition low point was more because of the Matt Ward power spike rather than the codex being gak. I fear Grey Knights are still suffering from the spike that Matt Ward gave them.
I also mentioned that the reason Eldar have been doing good is that the rotation of unit viability has been constant. Eldar boast a very large and variable line and with each iteration and rule change one of those things manages to become the thing that holds the army up. It's why historically the Eldar armies have been rather monotonous if you were going for competitive. 6th was Dire Avengers in Scatter Serpents with Wraithknights. 7th was Scatterbikes and Wraithknights(and maybe a unit of Warp Spiders).
Automatically Appended Next Post: On a more relevant point I discovered this short story.
I am wondering if this character is actually a named character. Won't know until the codex comes out or if someone in this thread were to leak a page or two, but interesting thing nonetheless. GSC currently has no named character so it would be interesting if this would be one of the first. "The Hero of Hyghan" has a nice ring to it.
SHUPPET wrote: Agreed with both the above posts. Also, a few weeks ago, a leaker who got other things right already like the Biophagus, said Cult Ambush was being turned into blips. This is the first anyone had ever heard of the idea. Today, the pre-order for GSC confirms that the book comes with Blip tokens for cult ambush, meaning that this leaker, who has already been confirmed accurate on other points, was almost certainly telling the truth here.
Cult Ambush leaked rules:
Spoiler:
(cult ambush): It's been completely overhauled. Essentially, you get a number of "blip tokens" (which are included with the codex) equal to the number of units you have in Cult Ambush reserves, plus one spare token for every two units in reserves (to use as "decoy tokens". After both sides have finished deploying, you get to place your tokens down anywhere on the board that is more than 9" from enemy units. At the end of any of your movement phases (including first turn) you may flip over a blip token to reveal a unit in cult ambush reserves (you choose which one, if any, appears there - if nothing appears there it's one of your "decoy" tokens). They must also be flipped if an enemy unit goes within 9" of a blip token. There are a number of mechanics that allow you to place more blip tokens down and move them.
If an enemy unit moves within 9" of them, you place down the GSC unit as close as possible to the blip token.
So if a guard squad advances onto the token and surrounds it, you then place the GSC unit as close as possible (but outside of 1" of enemy units. If they move to 3" away from it, you just place it down on the token (but outside of 1" of enemy units). One model from the unit must be centered on the token if possible.
This is a barebones overview (he talked about a lot of things) giving you a ton more counterplay options than last edition, and as we know from the Kelermorph's rules, there is also a success roll or table of some manner involved.
So basically, there is a ton of options to deal with him cult ambushing in on your characters. Ambushing him may not yet even be the best way to play a character who requires such precision - we'll have to wait and see. Let's at least do that before making these extreme declarations, yes?
This... Makes no sense given that we know there is a cult ambush table that you roll on, given the kelermorphs own preview.
I mean, the tokens where talked about, we know they exist.
But a table also exists.
Wtf?
I don't see what is so confusing. Assuming the leak is correct, presumably you roll on a table that determines something like whether you can move immediately, or perhaps restricts which blips you can arrive from, or any number of possibilities.
Admech radium carbines do 2 damage on wound rolls of 6+, they could've given him that (or even 3 damage) to represent crazy headshot skills. But my headcanon just tells me he has some exploding bullets or whatever, not too bothered by it.
Somewhat related, I'm pretty sure a small 40k datasheet for the admech manipulus was included in the killteambox (apparently he's 90 points, which hopefully was priced before CA when the dominus was dropped to the same). Wouldn't there be a datasheet included in the GSC killteam box as well? Or did they skip that since the codex is out so soon thereafter?
PiñaColada wrote: Admech radium carbines do 2 damage on wound rolls of 6+, they could've given him that (or even 3 damage) to represent crazy headshot skills. But my headcanon just tells me he has some exploding bullets or whatever, not too bothered by it.
Somewhat related, I'm pretty sure a small 40k datasheet for the admech manipulus was included in the killteambox (apparently he's 90 points, which hopefully was priced before CA when the dominus was dropped to the same). Wouldn't there be a datasheet included in the GSC killteam box as well? Or did they skip that since the codex is out so soon thereafter?
There probably will be, but it's not out until the weekend. I guess reviewers etc would have copies by now though.
PiñaColada wrote: Admech radium carbines do 2 damage on wound rolls of 6+, they could've given him that (or even 3 damage) to represent crazy headshot skills. But my headcanon just tells me he has some exploding bullets or whatever, not too bothered by it.
Somewhat related, I'm pretty sure a small 40k datasheet for the admech manipulus was included in the killteambox (apparently he's 90 points, which hopefully was priced before CA when the dominus was dropped to the same). Wouldn't there be a datasheet included in the GSC killteam box as well? Or did they skip that since the codex is out so soon thereafter?
Depends on if anybody has received a copy of the Kill Team early. Otherwise we'll have to wait until Saturday to see if there are points in the box.
People really thinks this is OP or worth of 150 points.Killing 5 guards or 2 marines/primaris in turn ( or 4-6 damage to marine like characters) and can be killed by 12 (inside 12") guards or 7 marines with bolters in turn not including any auras or other buffs.
When you see this thing in a vaccum maybe makes sense. The problem I see is people deploying 3, because if it is any good people are going to take 3, and mowing the center of any army. I wonder if anyone can do the math of 3 of these hitting Failbbadon or BobbyG. Because well, Farseers are doomed, pun unintended.
Kithail wrote: When you see this thing in a vaccum maybe makes sense. The problem I see is people deploying 3, because if it is any good people are going to take 3, and mowing the center of any army. I wonder if anyone can do the math of 3 of these hitting Failbbadon or BobbyG. Because well, Farseers are doomed, pun unintended.
For Guilliman damage is 2 per Kelermorph rounded up.
Kithail wrote: When you see this thing in a vaccum maybe makes sense. The problem I see is people deploying 3, because if it is any good people are going to take 3, and mowing the center of any army. I wonder if anyone can do the math of 3 of these hitting Failbbadon or BobbyG. Because well, Farseers are doomed, pun unintended.
The important question is if you can really field three. The short story implies he is unique, but who knows, he might also be generic.
Kithail wrote: When you see this thing in a vaccum maybe makes sense. The problem I see is people deploying 3, because if it is any good people are going to take 3, and mowing the center of any army. I wonder if anyone can do the math of 3 of these hitting Failbbadon or BobbyG. Because well, Farseers are doomed, pun unintended.
The important question is if you can really field three. The short story implies he is unique, but who knows, he might also be generic.
Yeah I'd like to wait on that. I wouldn't have issues with a unique priced around 100 points. I'd say that taking 3 with a LOS screen at 100pp is kind of broken though.
Highly unlikely. can't think of anything in the game that is unique and doesn't have a name.
Well in addition to a lot of the rules "feeling" like those of a unique Character and, ya know, the balance issue, I would not put it past GW to play into the western theme with this Gunslinger. Clint Eastwood's character was "The man with no name" after all
Oh, and the Avatar of Khaine is Unique and doesn't have a name, yet there is one per Craftworld
Angra wrote: People really thinks this is OP or worth of 150 points.Killing 5 guards or 2 marines/primaris in turn ( or 4-6 damage to marine like characters) and can be killed by 12 (inside 12") guards or 7 marines with bolters in turn not including any auras or other buffs.
Again - it's not about killing basic units.
I think it's perfectly fine for this unit to exist. People just need to realize what he could be capable of doing and why a certain cost might be assigned to him to represent that.
There's no Cult Ambush table, so that +3 to the roll seems like, well, it's no longer applying. That's weird. Or maybe there still is a table for coming up from underground that they just haven't shown us yet.
Yarium wrote: There's no Cult Ambush table, so that +3 to the roll seems like, well, it's no longer applying. That's weird. Or maybe there still is a table for coming up from underground that they just haven't shown us yet.
Seems unlikely given the 3CP stratagem to have a unit move d6" after coming out of underground ambush, but maybe. Suspect that +3 might just apply to kill team.
There's no Cult Ambush table, so that +3 to the roll seems like, well, it's no longer applying. That's weird. Or maybe there still is a table for coming up from underground that they just haven't shown us yet.
maybe thats not the entirety of the mechanic. It outright says all this has to be within your own deployment zone, until you "change the nature of the ambush". No further details given other than sine strats maybe that's what they meant?
Put two and two together and it's probably the ambush table.
or maybe it's what you said and blips just have to be used defensively? weird
Yarium wrote: There's no Cult Ambush table, so that +3 to the roll seems like, well, it's no longer applying. That's weird. Or maybe there still is a table for coming up from underground that they just haven't shown us yet.
Seems unlikely given the 3CP stratagem to have a unit move d6" after coming out of underground ambush, but maybe. Suspect that +3 might just apply to kill team.
no, it was shown on the rules for 40k, and not on the KT one. it's definitely for 40k.
Yarium wrote: There's no Cult Ambush table, so that +3 to the roll seems like, well, it's no longer applying. That's weird. Or maybe there still is a table for coming up from underground that they just haven't shown us yet.
Seems unlikely given the 3CP stratagem to have a unit move d6" after coming out of underground ambush, but maybe. Suspect that +3 might just apply to kill team.
It definitely applies to 40K. The post it appears in is entirely dedicated to 40K rules.
There's no Cult Ambush table, so that +3 to the roll seems like, well, it's no longer applying. That's weird. Or maybe there still is a table for coming up from underground that they just haven't shown us yet.
maybe thats not the entirety of the mechanic. It outright says all this has to be within your own deployment zone, until you "change the nature of the ambush". No further details given other than sine strats maybe that's what they meant?
Put two and two together and it's probably the ambush table.
or maybe it's what you said and blips just have to be used defensively? weird
It refers to the stratagem directly below it that turns ambush blips into underground ambush (deepstrike)
There is no mention anywhere of a cult ambush table, and I'm outright confused.
There is no mention anywhere of a cult ambush table, and I'm outright confused.
It's very likely they get a potential bonus after the ambush like being able to relocate. Some of the characters almost certainly interact with these, too.
potentially a red herring either way. But looks like Kelermorph only offensive deployment is regular old deepstrike. Stratagem to shoot twice the for 3 CP, but means a unit of stealers or whatever doesn't get to use the strat to 3D6 charge out of DS, so significant opportunity cost.
doesn't seem to unfair to me, but hey I'm not a low tier player who complains about everything before even trying to figure out my options so I can't predict how the dakka reaction will be to this one.
Sunny Side Up wrote: Keltermorph +3 was a deceptive little red herring. How thematic
Or simply an "old" box printed along with the older KT stuff, a while before the Codex, but held back in the release pipeline.
Or there's something we've not seen yet.
See the spoiler on the last page. WH Facebook confirmed it is a holdover rule to allow people to use him until the codex is out. The printing of rules and timing is all jumbled, because the GSC timeline got pushed around.
Sunny Side Up wrote: Keltermorph +3 was a deceptive little red herring. How thematic
Or simply an "old" box printed along with the older KT stuff, a while before the Codex, but held back in the release pipeline.
Or there's something we've not seen yet.
See the spoiler on the last page. WH Facebook confirmed it is a holdover rule to allow people to use him until the codex is out. The printing of rules and timing is all jumbled, because the GSC timeline got pushed around.
Huh... So not only doesn't it work, but it's also only valid for a week? Fair enough!
Quickjager wrote: Welp looks like Cult Ambush is a kick in the teeth now. This guy probably is like a 90 point character now.
Is there definite power creep with Ambush I'm guessing?
Nah, it's more reliable but the best case is weaker. You aren't going to be able to move the Kellermorph closer than 9" to the enemy before shooting, and you're not going to be able to shoot twice. It got a LOT easier to screen out the Kellermorph.
Unless there are strats we haven't seen that change this, big disclaimer!
Karol wrote: Isn't there one for 3CP one that lets them either move d6" or shot in addition to the shoting phase?
Yes, but that's after ambush (which I mean you can't ambush across the table and then use it), which is deployment zone only. Now those characters could move blips around, but so far after turn 1 there are no additional gambits with ambush.
Karol wrote: Isn't there one for 3CP one that lets them either move d6" or shot in addition to the shoting phase?
Yeah, but 3CP to do something that was free before? And only d6", not a full move. That's super risky for so many CP.
Did you see that blips have to be placed in your deployment zone too?
Yes best case scenario you go underground with KM, pop-up 9", and spend 3 CP to shoot twice if your opponent screwed up or move D6 to try and get range. Very risky indeed.
Quickjager wrote: Welp looks like Cult Ambush is a kick in the teeth now. This guy probably is like a 90 point character now.
Is there definite power creep with Ambush I'm guessing?
Its a wash, Cult ambush looks like it is actually ill-suited for a surgical strike, but it's much more useful overall now in denying the opponent a first strike on your army. The Kelemorph still does its job well, but it isn't bringing/buffing an accompanying squad anymore with a free move/fire. I'd say it is weaker overall offensively, but it is honestly great defensively.
The 5 shot pistol is literally UZI, though, compact machine gun that can be only fired with any accuracy because the wielder literally has steel arms. And as I stated in Kill Team thread, no one would have objected if the Keler Sue could fire six S4 - shots, or even nine S3 - to represent him being amazingly fast with guns. It's the combination of more D2 garbage coupled with AP only found on stuff like heavy bolters and autocannons (even closest frakking DW equivalent is huge, two handed cannon an Astartes has to fire with both hands that still has far worse stats than something this guy cobbled in a cave despite being best SM, Inquisition, and Admech could provide) that rubs the people the wrong way.
Just a refresher, a Plasma Pistol can be S8 AP -3 D2. Humans can dual-wield Plasma Pistols. This guy has three arms.
Really like the idea of blips - but this feels a bit limited.
I mean its basically a free redeploy either on your turn, or after your opponents movement phase, potentially manipulated further by stratagems/other abilities. Which is nice I guess - but then if you were deploying second as per the CA18 missions, you kind of already got that. Assuming 1 blip counts as a unit you are not skewing your ability to choose who gets the first turn.
I can see the issues of making a whole game within a game, but I was imagining Space Hulk style trickery, where blips might ominously move around the table until say at least turn 3 unless someone goes to investigate. Sounds like they didn't want to commit to that, hence the more conventional "you can just hide underground". They imply turn 1 deep strike, but I'll believe it when I see it.
Tyel wrote: I mean its basically a free redeploy either on your turn, or after your opponents movement phase, potentially manipulated further by stratagems/other abilities. Which is nice I guess - but then if you were deploying second as per the CA18 missions, you kind of already got that. Assuming 1 blip counts as a unit you are not skewing your ability to choose who gets the first turn.
With the CA18 missions, it means you either deploy first and then get to redeploy before taking the first turn, or you deploy second, and get to redeploy after your opponent's movement phase, which means you get to deploy knowing exactly what will get to shoot at/try to charge the units you're putting down.
As well, with the stratagem to have 'empty' blip counters, you can put down blips that you don't end up using. Like, for example, putting blips all across your deployment zone, and then actually deploying only to one side.
I think this is going to be extremely powerful. I totally get what you're saying about being able to move blips around, but this is still quite thematic. It's less something that dramatically changes how the army moves/fights, it just changes when they deploy to give them the initiative and a proper sense of ambush.
Ugh, the new models are too good. I'll definitely be picking up the codex and at least a small force for small games or to ally with my nids. I wonder if GSC will have their own version of the loyal 32.
With ambush now revealed you realize we can now guarantee a gunslinger ambushes 9.3" away with 3 neophyte squads. Pay 3 cp and dbl shoot him giving all the neos reroll 1s. Then if we are feeling frisky we can attempt assaults with the neos (If there is anything left)
Timeshadow wrote: With ambush now revealed you realize we can now guarantee a gunslinger ambushes 9.3" away with 3 neophyte squads. Pay 3 cp and dbl shoot him giving all the neos reroll 1s. Then if we are feeling frisky we can attempt assaults with the neos (If there is anything left)
No need to double shoot with him unless there is a character to kill. His guns are enough to kill a single model for rerolls.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Tyel wrote: They imply turn 1 deep strike, but I'll believe it when I see it.
Anyone can deespstrike turn 1. It's the extra rules that prohibit it. People not playing matched are free to do so.
Not Online!!! wrote: We can't shoot at the target markers right?
In fact you basically can now guarantee that enemies can't shoot you turn one then, right?
Yup - you can't even charge them if you were able to.
Not Online!!! wrote: We can't shoot at the target markers right?
In fact you basically can now guarantee that enemies can't shoot you turn one then, right?
Yup - you can't even charge them if you were able to.
So in other words this is an army that always gets the drop on you since you can't go closer then 9" in the first turn to the markers if I got that one right and if i want to be able to shoot at them i need to walk into them and my opponent is completly free to decide at anytime and change whatever there is under the marker?
Not Online!!! wrote:We can't shoot at the target markers right?
In fact you basically can now guarantee that enemies can't shoot you turn one then, right?
Daedalus81 wrote:Yup - you can't even charge them if you were able to.
Since the markers get exchanged for units either at the very start of the first turn (if the GSC player goes first) or right before the non-GSC player's shooting phase on the first turn (if the non-GSC player goes first) I don't see how you guys are interpreting that you won't be able to shoot or charge on turn 1.
The most that can happen on the board before the markers get replaced with units is a single movement phase.
Not Online!!! wrote:We can't shoot at the target markers right?
In fact you basically can now guarantee that enemies can't shoot you turn one then, right?
Daedalus81 wrote:Yup - you can't even charge them if you were able to.
Since the markers get exchanged for units either at the very start of the first turn (if the GSC player goes first) or right before the non-GSC player's shooting phase on the first turn (if the non-GSC player goes first) I don't see how you guys are interpreting that you won't be able to shoot or charge on turn 1.
The most that can happen on the board before the markers get replaced with units is a single movement phase.
Sorry - you're right - I stayed up too late working. Still, you can't get closer than 9", which is a big downside to fast armies and you get to position based on their movement choices.
Daedalus81 wrote: Yes best case scenario you go underground with KM, pop-up 9", and spend 3 CP to shoot twice if your opponent screwed up or move D6 to try and get range. Very risky indeed.
It's not any riskier than spending 2 CP to put Bloodletters into deepstrike, then spending 1 CP and 15 points to get a Banner of Blood and a 3d6" charge, which is a gamble I'm usually happy to take.
It's not riskier than the various other ways various other armies use to get 3d6" off of their deep strike.
It just sucks in comparison to Index/CA Cult Ambush.
Bloodletters get +1 to charge so they actually are objectively less risky, and by a non arbitrary amount too. And even they are known to fail. I think missing the charge with a blob of aberrants or purestrains is going to be exceptionally punishing too, at least Bloodletters are cheap.
SHUPPET wrote: Bloodletters get +1 to charge so they actually are objectively less risky, and by a non arbitrary amount too. And even they are known to fail. I think missing the charge with a blob of aberrants or purestrains is going to be exceptionally punishing too, at least Bloodletters are cheap.
Orks, Blood Angels, I'm sure there are others I'm forgetting, combined with various re-roll options, the least of which being a basic CP re-roll.
It's just not that risky, and I'll go ahead and qualify this with, 'in my opinion', and certainly not any more expensive than the various other methodologies for achieving the same result.
Let's go back to being civil from here on 
thanks.
