alright but I was just responding to what you did say.
I'd say it's risky enough that I'm personally just gonna keep it to Neophytes when I ambush. Personal call though. losing 300+ pts of melee units to a whiff 1 out of every 4 games is not competitive imo, you probably autolose that game. Would you go skydiving if 1 out of 4 parachutes failed?
SHUPPET wrote: losing 300+ pts of melee units to a whiff 1 out of every 4 games is not competitive imo, you probably autolose that game. Would you go skydiving if 1 out of 4 parachutes failed?
I would say if you're committed to a gimmick don't go by half measures. Commit to any and all re-roll options available to you, regardless of cost and get that unit in hand to hand. Admittedly, Bloodletters is the medium I'm familiar with using Chaos and I've yet to have to do anything beyond the initial outlay of 3CP and 15 points. On the flip side, having faced GSC *a lot*, I am pretty sure they have options to improve their charge, even without using things like Deliverance Bloodsurge. I have no doubt this strat will show up regularly in tournament lists.
Honestly, 1 in 4 is not that bad, especially the ability to manipulate the number via re-rolls, etc. But it happens, I watched an opponent fail a 6" charge on 3d6", dice are dice.
Also, it's a dice game, not jumping out of an airplane, obviously context dictates risk and the associated gambling.
SHUPPET wrote: losing 300+ pts of melee units to a whiff 1 out of every 4 games is not competitive imo, you probably autolose that game. Would you go skydiving if 1 out of 4 parachutes failed?
I would say if you're committed to a gimmick don't go by half measures. Commit to any and all re-roll options available to you, regardless of cost and get that unit in hand to hand. Admittedly, Bloodletters is the medium I'm familiar with using Chaos and I've yet to have to do anything beyond the initial outlay of 3CP and 15 points. On the flip side, having faced GSC *a lot*, I am pretty sure they have options to improve their charge, even without using things like Deliverance Bloodsurge. I have no doubt this strat will show up regularly in tournament lists.
Honestly, 1 in 4 is not that bad, especially the ability to manipulate the number via re-rolls, etc. But it happens, I watched an opponent fail a 6" charge on 3d6", dice are dice.
Also, it's a dice game, not jumping out of an airplane, obviously context dictates risk and the associated gambling.
You might need to play against them a little more than, as GSC don't have other options than Deliverance Broodsurge to improve their charge.
Delivering Stealers/Aberrants like this seems like something you roll the dice on in a difficult match up that would benefit from that edge, not something you would want to do every game because it will fail once or twice per tournament, and you will almost certainly be very behind if it does.
It depends on the purpose of Cult Ambush in your list.
This would go very well with my core Tyranids list. I don't need to ambush genestealers, i can move them fairly quickly with Kraken.
Terrain also plays a factor. Deep strike charge is less of a risk if you can pop out inside of a building, and attempt to charge through the walls. The nice thing about abilities like ambush is that you can play them as the situation dictates.
SHUPPET wrote: Delivering Stealers/Aberrants like this seems like something you roll the dice on in a difficult match up that would benefit from that edge, not something you would want to do every game because it will fail once or twice per tournament, and you will almost certainly be very behind if it does.
Obviously. Against certain armies, ambush is probably pointless.
Of course if the rumors are true, GSC is going to have a lot of charge manipulation abilities, despite the changes to Cult Ambush.
SHUPPET wrote: Delivering Stealers/Aberrants like this seems like something you roll the dice on in a difficult match up that would benefit from that edge, not something you would want to do every game because it will fail once or twice per tournament, and you will almost certainly be very behind if it does.
Obviously. Against certain armies, ambush is probably pointless.
Of course if the rumors are true, GSC is going to have a lot of charge manipulation abilities, despite the changes to Cult Ambush.
That's not what I'm saying. I'm saying it's a bad idea to do most games, only a few match ups that you look at and think "welp I'm probably going to lose if I don't do something crazy here" do you want to be risking a 1/4 chance of flubbing a 300 pt glass cannon outside of the rest of your army right in their face
SHUPPET wrote: That's not what I'm saying. I'm saying it's a bad idea to do most games, only a few match ups that you look at and think "welp I'm probably going to lose if I don't do something crazy here" do you want to be risking a 1/4 chance of flubbing a 300 pt glass cannon outside of the rest of your army right in their face
Given the leaks from the GSC codex, I suspect your opinion will change, but I'll leave it to we have different interpretations of gambling. Sure, I guess it's a 1/4 chance of failure in a vacuum, but it's not a vacuum and the potential to utterly devastate your opponent on turn 2 (when honestly, other parts of your army should be up there pushing the line) is worth the gamble in my opinion.
I guess you could just play artillery and never have to worry about gambling, or perhaps I've been playing Chaos too long and a 75% chance for blood and glory sounds full of win to me. Quite frankly, I'll take that every time, and the times it doesn't work, well, that will be a short game that I'll quickly move on from.
However, if the GSC rumors are true, I think a 1/4 chance of failure is hyperbole, especially if some of the leaked cult traits are accurate.
I'm noticing a lot of backlash on the 40KFB pages for both the Kelermorph and the codex units so far revealed at large.
Seems the space marine players are quite upset that some of these GSC units can one shot terminators or Intercessors, and that the Alpha's sniper rifle is orders of magnitude greater than the scout sniper rifle.
SHUPPET wrote: That's not what I'm saying. I'm saying it's a bad idea to do most games, only a few match ups that you look at and think "welp I'm probably going to lose if I don't do something crazy here" do you want to be risking a 1/4 chance of flubbing a 300 pt glass cannon outside of the rest of your army right in their face
Given the leaks from the GSC codex, I suspect your opinion will change, but I'll leave it to we have different interpretations of gambling. Sure, I guess it's a 1/4 chance of failure in a vacuum, but it's not a vacuum and the potential to utterly devastate your opponent on turn 2 (when honestly, other parts of your army should be up there pushing the line) is worth the gamble in my opinion.
I guess you could just play artillery and never have to worry about gambling, or perhaps I've been playing Chaos too long and a 75% chance for blood and glory sounds full of win to me. Quite frankly, I'll take that every time, and the times it doesn't work, well, that will be a short game that I'll quickly move on from.
However, if the GSC rumors are true, I think a 1/4 chance of failure is hyperbole, especially if some of the leaked cult traits are accurate.
my opinion is obviously due to change with the release of new rules. Completely irrelevant, I'm talking about the strategy of rules as we knew them when this conversation started.
Your attitude is fine for casuals, but you can't go to a tournament expecting to take first place, with full knowledge that you are going to fail once or two games, that's not competitive. If that's not your goal then it's probably fine. I think neither of us wrong, probably just approaching it with two different mentality.
Togusa wrote: I'm noticing a lot of backlash on the 40KFB pages for both the Kelermorph and the codex units so far revealed at large.
Seems the space marine players are quite upset that some of these GSC units can one shot terminators or Intercessors, and that the Alpha's sniper rifle is orders of magnitude greater than the scout sniper rifle.
SHUPPET wrote: That's not what I'm saying. I'm saying it's a bad idea to do most games, only a few match ups that you look at and think "welp I'm probably going to lose if I don't do something crazy here" do you want to be risking a 1/4 chance of flubbing a 300 pt glass cannon outside of the rest of your army right in their face
Given the leaks from the GSC codex, I suspect your opinion will change, but I'll leave it to we have different interpretations of gambling. Sure, I guess it's a 1/4 chance of failure in a vacuum, but it's not a vacuum and the potential to utterly devastate your opponent on turn 2 (when honestly, other parts of your army should be up there pushing the line) is worth the gamble in my opinion.
I guess you could just play artillery and never have to worry about gambling, or perhaps I've been playing Chaos too long and a 75% chance for blood and glory sounds full of win to me. Quite frankly, I'll take that every time, and the times it doesn't work, well, that will be a short game that I'll quickly move on from.
However, if the GSC rumors are true, I think a 1/4 chance of failure is hyperbole, especially if some of the leaked cult traits are accurate.
Yea we're up to +2 to charge at the moment. Add in a CP reroll or some other reroll and you're in pretty good shape.
Togusa wrote: I'm noticing a lot of backlash on the 40KFB pages for both the Kelermorph and the codex units so far revealed at large.
Seems the space marine players are quite upset that some of these GSC units can one shot terminators or Intercessors, and that the Alpha's sniper rifle is orders of magnitude greater than the scout sniper rifle.
"People are upset when power creep makes an army that is already weak even weaker".
Togusa wrote: I'm noticing a lot of backlash on the 40KFB pages for both the Kelermorph and the codex units so far revealed at large.
Seems the space marine players are quite upset that some of these GSC units can one shot terminators or Intercessors, and that the Alpha's sniper rifle is orders of magnitude greater than the scout sniper rifle.
The alpha is a character. Scouts are not.
Funny, must have forgot all the amazing guns the SM chapter masters can take. Oh, let's see, bolt pistols, bolters, whee, a one whole storm bolter! And they can't even take a melta gun! Or a lascannon to make use of their BS. Not even some broken sniper gak, mind you, just something SM mooks can take. Where is my broken boomstick, again?
Funnily enough, that home made junk rifle is far better than sniper cannon lugged around by primaris. Really, no one would be upset if these stats were on stalker rifle to begin with (which would also rescue it from total irrelevancy as no one takes it now) even if though wouldn't be anywhere near as good given primaris can't rapidly reposition and don't have 2+ BS. Then it would at least feel equal, as of right now, Cawl, supposed genius, can't even make something tenth as good as a weapon cobbled together from junk by random criminals...
The 5 shot pistol is literally UZI, though, compact machine gun that can be only fired with any accuracy because the wielder literally has steel arms. And as I stated in Kill Team thread, no one would have objected if the Keler Sue could fire six S4 - shots, or even nine S3 - to represent him being amazingly fast with guns. It's the combination of more D2 garbage coupled with AP only found on stuff like heavy bolters and autocannons (even closest frakking DW equivalent is huge, two handed cannon an Astartes has to fire with both hands that still has far worse stats than something this guy cobbled in a cave despite being best SM, Inquisition, and Admech could provide) that rubs the people the wrong way.
Just a refresher, a Plasma Pistol can be S8 AP -3 D2. Humans can dual-wield Plasma Pistols. This guy has three arms.
*eyeroll* I like how you shot your own foot here. First, you really don't see how comical you sound when some random gun cobbled together from junk needs to be compared with insanely advanced energy weapon to not look OP? Because it does when compared to literally everything else, including DW shotguns I mentioned above? Gee, I wonder to what you will compare the sniper gun revealed today to downplay it, to a lascannon? Or better yet, predator autocannon, same thing, eh?
Second, funnily enough, even in the above you failed, because most of the time, plasma pistol bonus to wound will matter much less than Kelly Sue extra shots (and weapon being completely safe) so I am pretty sure that even if he had option to take plasma (which would make him far less ridiculous and more setting-fitting, TBH) most players would still take his guns against good 2/3 of armies in the game. Balance, what's that?
Togusa wrote: I'm noticing a lot of backlash on the 40KFB pages for both the Kelermorph and the codex units so far revealed at large.
Seems the space marine players are quite upset that some of these GSC units can one shot terminators or Intercessors, and that the Alpha's sniper rifle is orders of magnitude greater than the scout sniper rifle.
The alpha is a character. Scouts are not.
Funny, must have forgot all the amazing guns the SM chapter masters can take. Oh, let's see, bolt pistols, bolters, whee, a one whole storm bolter! And they can't even take a melta gun! Or a lascannon to make use of their BS. Not even some broken sniper gak, mind you, just something SM mooks can take. Where is my broken boomstick, again?
Hey, it's time to melt down all those smash captain hammers everyone! The chapter master wants a Sniper Rifle.
The 5 shot pistol is literally UZI, though, compact machine gun that can be only fired with any accuracy because the wielder literally has steel arms. And as I stated in Kill Team thread, no one would have objected if the Keler Sue could fire six S4 - shots, or even nine S3 - to represent him being amazingly fast with guns. It's the combination of more D2 garbage coupled with AP only found on stuff like heavy bolters and autocannons (even closest frakking DW equivalent is huge, two handed cannon an Astartes has to fire with both hands that still has far worse stats than something this guy cobbled in a cave despite being best SM, Inquisition, and Admech could provide) that rubs the people the wrong way.
Just a refresher, a Plasma Pistol can be S8 AP -3 D2. Humans can dual-wield Plasma Pistols. This guy has three arms.
*eyeroll* I like how you shot your own foot here. First, you really don't see how comical you sound when some random gun cobbled together from junk needs to be compared with insanely advanced energy weapon to not look OP? Because it does when compared to literally everything else, including DW shotguns I mentioned above? Gee, I wonder to what you will compare the sniper gun revealed today to downplay it, to a lascannon? Or better yet, predator autocannon, same thing, eh?
Second, funnily enough, even in the above you failed, because most of the time, plasma pistol bonus to wound will matter much less than Kelly Sue extra shots (and weapon being completely safe) so I am pretty sure that even if he had option to take plasma (which would make him far less ridiculous and more setting-fitting, TBH) most players would still take his guns against good 2/3 of armies in the game. Balance, what's that?
"These pistols have stats comparable to a heavy weapon!" As do plasma pistols.
". . .that Astartes have to fire with two hands" Plasma pistols can be fired one-handed by humans.
"But it's soo high-tech!" So high tech that hive gangers can get them. You know. . underground criminal elements. . . like a Genestealer cult.
So already in existence are high-tech, stronger weapons used by regular human criminals. Also in existence are weapons that are much-higher-rate-of-fire autopistols.
So in summary, Liberator Autostubs are less powerful than Plasma Pistols, fewer shots than the Sicarian Flechette Blaster and Stubcarbine pistols, and wielded by a genetically engineered human-genestealer hybrid. Genestealers btw are S4 (marine Strength), have a move of 8" (faster than an Eldar) and back in the day had an Initiative of 6 (as high as an Eldar Exarch, higher than an Imperial Assassin).
Their new Jackal sniper rifle is S4 -2AP d3 damage. The Silencer sniper rifle is S4 AP-1 and D3 damage. Hardly comparable to Lascannons, Chicken Little.
For your viewing pleasure, here is an image of a regular human dual-wielding Plasma Pistols.
I think the mistake people are making again and again is assuming that the Genestealer Cults are some ragtag band of misfits. GSC are well organized(thanks to the hive mind I assume) terrorists that slowly take over whole worlds before a hive fleet comes. This means that they'll often get a lot of high-grade military armaments in the process.
Now, to be fair, the first release was low-key - indicating the start of a cult and I think a lot of people are still stuck on that - but as is evident by the current release they are now focusing on the cult when it has reached critical mass and is a force to be reckoned with.
Eldarsif wrote: I think the mistake people are making again and again is assuming that the Genestealer Cults are some ragtag band of misfits. GSC are well organized(thanks to the hive mind I assume) terrorists that slowly take over whole worlds before a hive fleet comes. This means that they'll often get a lot of high-grade military armaments in the process.
Now, to be fair, the first release was low-key - indicating the start of a cult and I think a lot of people are still stuck on that - but as is evident by the current release they are now focusing on the cult when it has reached critical mass and is a force to be reckoned with.
Scuse me but how are they connected to "THE Hivemeind"? Also how would you expect that to coordinate them to the point where they get access to better then military grade weaponry?
Secondly: The profile for the autostubs is questionable, end of discussion. (Literally a Daemonweapon for an ascended Chaos Marine profile but times 3.)
Thirdly: The sniperrifle is probably the first time i see a profile for a sniperrifle that would actually be worth it as a special weapon profile overall.
Still, “stub” type pistols have been worst of the worst in-games since Necromunda v1 if not before. A D2 stub pistol that’s better than a Bolter is why I raised an eyebrow, not simply that a character had a good weapon. Internal logic fail on GW’s part. They could have given him “mining blast pistols” and I wouldn’t have cared, but “stub”-anything should be fairly poop.
JohnnyHell wrote: Still, “stub” type pistols have been worst of the worst in-games since Necromunda v1 if not before. A D2 stub pistol that’s better than a Bolter is why I raised an eyebrow, not simply that a character had a good weapon. Internal logic fail on GW’s part. They could have given him “mining blast pistols” and I wouldn’t have cared, but “stub”-anything should be fairly poop.
A special pattern autopistol would've not been bad as a name. (Autoguns are performing like lasguns, upgunned lasguns exist, upgunned autoguns exist.)
Technically there are also normal stub pistols in the game, which have 6" range compared to the 12" of an autopistol, which makes this even stranger.
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Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote: Background wise, it does suit the GSC, as they are about disrupting the enemy then taking them apart piecemeal.
And I'm very interested to see the impact they have on the wider approach to army building. Could we see less reliance on super hero characters?
Probably, if the cult becomes a threat to them.
However Knights skew the meta torwards superhero charachters / heavy dakka by virtue of existing.
If they have enough impact, horde lists that are more durable comparatively to assasinations become probably more liked, i guess.
Thirdly: The sniperrifle is probably the first time i see a profile for a sniperrifle that would actually be worth it as a special weapon profile overall.
The Admech sniper rifles, the transuranic arquebus, are still far scarier than that one. Sure those can't move and fire at all but the profile itself is pretty tasty.
Heavy 1 60" S7 AP-2 Damage d3 Any wound roll of 6+ causes an additional mortal wound
Thirdly: The sniperrifle is probably the first time i see a profile for a sniperrifle that would actually be worth it as a special weapon profile overall.
The Admech sniper rifles, the transuranic arquebus, are still far scarier than that one. Sure those can't move and fire at all but the profile itself is pretty tasty.
Heavy 1 60" S7 AP-2 Damage d3 Any wound roll of 6+ causes an additional mortal wound
I always regarded that one as more of a Anti-material-rifle /Panzerbüchse. (AT rifle)
Eldarsif wrote: I think the mistake people are making again and again is assuming that the Genestealer Cults are some ragtag band of misfits. GSC are well organized(thanks to the hive mind I assume) terrorists that slowly take over whole worlds before a hive fleet comes. This means that they'll often get a lot of high-grade military armaments in the process.
Now, to be fair, the first release was low-key - indicating the start of a cult and I think a lot of people are still stuck on that - but as is evident by the current release they are now focusing on the cult when it has reached critical mass and is a force to be reckoned with.
even if any of this was true, it's immediately countered by the fact that the weaponry shown here blows away that of the high grade military. Even SM weapons aren't really measuring up.
Scuse me but how are they connected to "THE Hivemeind"? Also how would you expect that to coordinate them to the point where they get access to better then military grade weaponry?
After a pregnant host (or whoever they impregnated) gives birth, their viciously malformed offspring creates a hive mind connection between itself, its parents, and the Genestealers (though this raises the question of how anyone else in the room during the birth, such as midwives, would react.) This connection and the mutations brought on by the Genestealer's seed proceed to subliminally twist the minds of both parents so that they unconditionally love their child and revere the Genestealers either as gods or as creatures sent by gods (the exact interpretation varies, you understand), usually fleeing into darkened tunnels, catacombs or sewers to avoid discovery.
Lot of psionics going on.
So you're saying that plasma weapons are not military grade? Because they do more or less the same with higher strength and better AP. I mean, a plasma pistol can even rip through tank armor which is much harder for the Desert Eagle you are being mad about.
Plasma pistol = Can reliably burn through tanks and titan armor. Is good against humanoids. Not military grade
LiberatorAutostub = Can not burn through tanks and titan armor easily, but is good against humanoids. Super Military Grade
Thirdly: The sniperrifle is probably the first time i see a profile for a sniperrifle that would actually be worth it as a special weapon profile overall.
The Admech sniper rifles, the transuranic arquebus, are still far scarier than that one. Sure those can't move and fire at all but the profile itself is pretty tasty.
Heavy 1 60" S7 AP-2 Damage d3 Any wound roll of 6+ causes an additional mortal wound
I always regarded that one as more of a Anti-material-rifle /Panzerbüchse. (AT rifle)
It can target charachters right?
Oh, it'll often pull that kind of duty since it'll wound normal vehicles on 4's. But it is a sniper rifle since it can target characters even if they're not the closest model.
To be fair SM weaponry doesn't measure up against anything these days unless you take Deathwatch. That is more a design problem of the Space Marine codex in relation to every other faction. Even GW is acknowledging that considering the fact that they are adding beta rules to improve SM weaponry.
Thirdly: The sniperrifle is probably the first time i see a profile for a sniperrifle that would actually be worth it as a special weapon profile overall.
The Admech sniper rifles, the transuranic arquebus, are still far scarier than that one. Sure those can't move and fire at all but the profile itself is pretty tasty.
Heavy 1 60" S7 AP-2 Damage d3 Any wound roll of 6+ causes an additional mortal wound
I always regarded that one as more of a Anti-material-rifle /Panzerbüchse. (AT rifle)
It can target charachters right?
Oh, it'll often pull that kind of duty since it'll wound normal vehicles on 4's. But it is a sniper rifle since it can target characters even if they're not the closest model.
the wish for dark Mechanicum has just intensified on my behalf........
(imagine one with demonic projectiles, the memes, mostly the bad rolls and instagibbs of your own squads thanks to beeing omnomnomed by angry daemons)
To be fair SM weaponry doesn't measure up against anything these days unless you take Deathwatch. That is more a design problem of the Space Marine codex in relation to every other faction. Even GW is acknowledging that considering the fact that they are adding beta rules to improve SM weaponry.
That stubpistol in this case however is certainly not any help at all considering how GW closed of the design space for marines.
Scuse me but how are they connected to "THE Hivemeind"? Also how would you expect that to coordinate them to the point where they get access to better then military grade weaponry?
After a pregnant host (or whoever they impregnated) gives birth, their viciously malformed offspring creates a hive mind connection between itself, its parents, and the Genestealers (though this raises the question of how anyone else in the room during the birth, such as midwives, would react.) This connection and the mutations brought on by the Genestealer's seed proceed to subliminally twist the minds of both parents so that they unconditionally love their child and revere the Genestealers either as gods or as creatures sent by gods (the exact interpretation varies, you understand), usually fleeing into darkened tunnels, catacombs or sewers to avoid discovery.
Lot of psionics going on.
So you're saying that plasma weapons are not military grade? Because they do more or less the same with higher strength and better AP. I mean, a plasma pistol can even rip through tank armor which is much harder for the Desert Eagle you are being mad about.
Plasma pistol = Can reliably burn through tanks and titan armor. Is good against humanoids. Not military grade
LiberatorAutostub = Can not burn through tanks and titan armor easily, but is good against humanoids. Super Military Grade
Inte
Nope not true, Genestealer Cults are not connected to the hivemind, they act as a Beacon not more not less.
They generate a small time quasi mini hivemind for controll of the Cult itself, but they are not part of the hivemind.
As for plasma pistols, i never said they weren't military grade, i am however wondering how a STUBPISTOL of all things is now outperforming all Boltpistols in existence, even cyphers one.
That stubpistol in this case however is certainly not any help at all considering how GW closed of the design space for marines.
How did they close off the design space for Marines? Technically nothing is closed off as all of this is GW's IP and they could change things as they wish as is evident by 8th edition and the new beta rules.
At this point it is probably easier to attempt to bring Space Marine up to parity with damage output than nerfing every single faction.
That stubpistol in this case however is certainly not any help at all considering how GW closed of the design space for marines.
How did they close off the design space for Marines? Technically nothing is closed off as all of this is GW's IP and they could change things as they wish as is evident by 8th edition and the new beta rules.
At this point it is probably easier to attempt to bring Space Marine up to parity with damage output than nerfing every single faction.
Because of scalling?
Mainly if i make bolter stronger, primaris want better bolters too.
If Bolters are stronger, Noise marines want better sonic weaponry too.
Not to mention that that pushes the heavy bolter upwards etc.
i am however wondering how a STUBPISTOL of all things is now outperforming all Boltpistols in existence, even cyphers one.
LIBERATOR STUBPISTOL. Wee, caps. These are apparently special Stubpistols as is indicated by the entry. A lot of things outperform boltpistols so I am wondering why this straw was worse than all the other straws.
Regarding Cypher my guess is that he is more of an afterthought that has never been adjusted to represent his legendary abilities. I mean, if he were as powerful as people are arguing in this thread then he should be autotake, but I am lucky if I see someone playing him every 10 years or so. Hell, I own two Cyphers and I don't even use him.
I am also wondering why Cypher has become the metric stick for every single unit in the game. There are ton of units that are badly balanced against his abilities. Why not talk about Marbo then? Ripper Pistol is strength 5(stronger than the Liberator) and autowounds on 2 and has 3 shots.
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Because of scalling?
Mainly if i make bolter stronger, primaris want better bolters too.
If Bolters are stronger, Noise marines want better sonic weaponry too.
Not to mention that that pushes the heavy bolter upwards etc.
So scaling 10+ factions down is better than scaling a single faction up?
i am however wondering how a STUBPISTOL of all things is now outperforming all Boltpistols in existence, even cyphers one.
LIBERATOR STUBPISTOL. Wee, caps. These are apparently special Stubpistols as is indicated by the entry. A lot of things outperform boltpistols so I am wondering why this straw was worse than all the other straws.
Regarding Cypher my guess is that he is more of an afterthought that has never been adjusted to represent his legendary abilities. I mean, if he were as powerful as people are arguing in this thread then he should be autotake, but I am lucky if I see someone playing him every 10 years or so. Hell, I own two Cyphers and I don't even use him.
I am also wondering why Cypher has become the metric stick for every single unit in the game. There are ton of units that are badly balanced against his abilities. Why not talk about Marbo then? Ripper Pistol is strength 5(stronger than the Liberator) and autowounds on 2 and has 3 shots.
Just because it is named variant that seemingly can get massproduced everywhere nowadays.
Autogun/ lasgun > Bolter> Hellgun> Heavy Bolter
Stub weaponry normaly ranges under these and are CIVILIAN ISSUE.
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So scaling 10+ factions down is better than scaling a single faction up?
No, scalling the stupid liberator pistols down is the right thing to do.
because of this
Autogun/ lasgun > Bolter> Hellgun> Heavy Bolter
Stub weaponry normaly ranges under these and are CIVILIAN ISSUE.
Just because it is named variant that seemingly can get massproduced everywhere nowadays.
What indicates that these Liberator guns are massproduced everywhere? As far as I know the gunslinger is the only one in the history of the game that has their hands on them. If you can point me to other units in the game that have the same gun then I would be happy to be informed.
No, scalling the stupid liberator pistols down is the right thing to do.
Right thing because? Is there a law that forbids game designers from exploring their game? I find these "right thing" arguments too subjective to take seriously. I can understand keeping balance is the right thing to do for the health of the game, but that's a Right Thing argument based on why and how and as we have no idea how the gunslinger will play on the table we are unable to argue based on that. You appear to be arguing for some parity between your idea of the lore and abstract attribute representation which is weird considering how nothing in the game really has any resemblance of such parity. I mean, if we revert back to Cypher we can see that he really has no proper parity with lore and attribute.
Stub weaponry normaly ranges under these and are CIVILIAN ISSUE.
Generic stub weaponry might be civilian issues, but since we don't see many Liberators around my guess is that they are a bit more special.
Just because it is named variant that seemingly can get massproduced everywhere nowadays.
What indicates that these Liberator guns are massproduced everywhere? As far as I know the gunslinger is the only one in the history of the game that has their hands on them. If you can point me to other units in the game that have the same gun then I would be happy to be informed.
No, scalling the stupid liberator pistols down is the right thing to do.
Right thing because? Is there a law that forbids game designers from exploring their game? I find these "right thing" arguments too subjective to take seriously. I can understand keeping balance is the right thing to do for the health of the game, but that's a Right Thing argument based on why and how and as we have no idea how the gunslinger will play on the table we are unable to argue based on that. You appear to be arguing for some parity between your idea of the lore and abstract attribute representation which is weird considering how nothing in the game really has any resemblance of such parity. I mean, if we revert back to Cypher we can see that he really has no proper parity with lore and attribute.
Stub weaponry normaly ranges under these and are CIVILIAN ISSUE.
Generic stub weaponry might be civilian issues, but since we don't see many Liberators around my guess is that they are a bit more special.
I like how you ignore all context that i gave you.
Massproduction: so far we don't see any limit beyond the potential application for rule of three. Also 3 alone on one model.
As for the right thing:
Stubpistol before ; S3 range 6" . Autogun/lasgun s3, Bolter S4, etc.
There was a propper scale once.
Now along comes this stubpistol and Gaks all over it.
As for cypher, ofcourse he is now worthless, not even Bolter discipline applies to him and the Fallen since GW can't even manage to know their own keywords. Scale and powercreep are however the reason you don't see him.
Two examples of multishot S4 stub weapons apparently military issue.
Key difference, Mechanicum Stub weaponry. And neither of these come close to the Liberator Stubpistol which is not produced by proffessionaly it seems, since no Imperium faction has accesss to them.
Silver144 wrote: This stub pustol much better than plasmapistol, it has 2..4 shots and do not explode on 1. I'll be happy to give a pair to all my sarg and characters.
Depends on what you are using it for. The Liberator is good against humanoids. Plasma is better against higher toughness characters and tanks.
Also, the pistol is only Pistol 2. The extra shots are just the Gunslinger pulling a High Noon a la McCree. It's not like Azrael's Bolter gives a 4+ invuln. save to everyone around it ore reroll to hit.
Silver144 wrote: This stub pustol much better than plasmapistol, it has 2..4 shots and do not explode on 1. I'll be happy to give a pair to all my sarg and characters.
Depends on what you are using it for. The Liberator is good against humanoids. Plasma is better against higher toughness characters and tanks.
Also, the pistol is only Pistol 2. The extra shots are just the Gunslinger pulling a High Noon a la McCree. It's not like Azrael's Bolter gives a 4+ invuln. save to everyone around it ore reroll to hit.
Not to mention that a generic kellermorph pulls a highnoon but cypher is not capable of it.....
No powercreep at all, no scale creep at all, everything is fine......
Silver144 wrote: This stub pustol much better than plasmapistol, it has 2..4 shots and do not explode on 1. I'll be happy to give a pair to all my sarg and characters.
Depends on what you are using it for. The Liberator is good against humanoids. Plasma is better against higher toughness characters and tanks.
Also, the pistol is only Pistol 2. The extra shots are just the Gunslinger pulling a High Noon a la McCree. It's not like Azrael's Bolter gives a 4+ invuln. save to everyone around it ore reroll to hit.
No, the rate of fire is up to the weapon. My wolf lord do not fire his boltpistol twice just because he is character. He fire it with the same profile as neophyte. The BS is up to character, so this guys having bs2+ represents them being good in shooting, not rate of fire.
And assuming, that a revolver with drum have 2x rate of fire than assault rifle is ridiculous. The admech stab weapon is machinguns, it's ok for machingun to has hight rate of fire. The liberator is a revolver, it is not ok to outshoot assault rifles with revolver. I call BS here.
It's still wildly out of proportion compared to similar weapons on more prominent characters. There is no reason a GSC elite unit should have a better Pistol (let alone three of them) than a Techpriest Dominus a Space Marine Captain or equivalent.
This is a clear example of style taking precedence over rules and consistency and it's only fair people are critcising it.
Not to mention that a generic kellermorph pulls a highnoon but cypher is not capable of it.....
Lord Emperor have mercy. Where has this sudden Cypher love come from? Is everyone playing Cypher these days? Is he meta? Is he the Alpha and the Omega? IS HE ALPHARIUS?
Is there a new Horus Heresy novel or something that is exalting him to new heights because I am truly flabbergasted by the strange appreciation of Cypher that is in this thread.
Also, if Cypher has become some weird metric that everything should be judged against I do hope he is squatted because no unit should have that much power over game design and lore. He is truly the worst Gary Stu of them all.
So, since the discussion seems to revolve around Cypher. What are people's current opinion on Cypher and how he can be fixed. He isn't seeing much table these days.
Not to mention that a generic kellermorph pulls a highnoon but cypher is not capable of it.....
Lord Emperor have mercy. Where has this sudden Cypher love come from? Is everyone playing Cypher these days? Is he meta? Is he the Alpha and the Omega? IS HE ALPHARIUS?
Is there a new Horus Heresy novel or something that is exalting him to new heights because I am truly flabbergasted by the strange appreciation of Cypher that is in this thread.
Also, if Cypher has become some weird metric that everything should be judged against I do hope he is squatted because no unit should have that much power over game design and lore. He is truly the worst Gary Stu of them all.
So, since the discussion seems to revolve around Cypher. What are people's current opinion on Cypher and how he can be fixed. He isn't seeing much table these days.
I love how again you are completly and actively trying to ignore any argument that neither fits your narrative nor are actually regarding context.
He is going to get compared to cypher because cypher is the only other gunslinger charachter known.
Not to mention that cypher costs 110pts and this dude, pesky little genestealer, is a cypher on roids that outguns him, out moves him and has the capability to target a charachter unlike cypher......
Also then if we follow your complete and utter lack of scalling bolters now S5 and heavy bolters S6, etc.
Not to mention that a generic kellermorph pulls a highnoon but cypher is not capable of it.....
Lord Emperor have mercy. Where has this sudden Cypher love come from? Is everyone playing Cypher these days? Is he meta? Is he the Alpha and the Omega? IS HE ALPHARIUS?
Is there a new Horus Heresy novel or something that is exalting him to new heights because I am truly flabbergasted by the strange appreciation of Cypher that is in this thread.
Also, if Cypher has become some weird metric that everything should be judged against I do hope he is squatted because no unit should have that much power over game design and lore. He is truly the worst Gary Stu of them all.
So, since the discussion seems to revolve around Cypher. What are people's current opinion on Cypher and how he can be fixed. He isn't seeing much table these days.
Ehm, it's not love. It's called "comparison". When you compare one characters to another.
Well, he is THE iconic gunslinger of 40k, so of course people will compare him to the Kelermorph. His current rules may be gak, but at least his weapons have reasonable and believable statlines. The problem is that Cypher should be better than the Kelermorph period. He may be a Gary Stu, but at least he's an established Gary Stu because he is flipping ancient special character presumably carrying around a Primarch's Sword and influencing events on a grand scale.
Also, please stop framing the Kelermorph as some sort of bold exploration of game design and lore when it's clearly not. If the most recent leak is to be believed, this thing is 60 points... GW understandably wants to push the new GSC release, but it looks like they are aiming well above and beyond their target.
So, since the discussion seems to revolve around Cypher. What are people's current opinion on Cypher and how he can be fixed. He isn't seeing much table these days.
Well it is kind of a hard to imagine how a character with a very long back ground of being a master of pistols, as others seem to point out, is worse rules wise then a random mook that is spawned every X spawns in a GSC colony.
Now maybe his fluff says the stub guns are just stub guns, but he fires mind bullets with them. That would solve the argument, at least as far as why he or rather the weapons he has are so good. Now why Cypher is bad, is a mystery to me.
Looks at the cost o GK brotherhood champion... Maybe the weapons cost like 10pts each.
So, since the discussion seems to revolve around Cypher. What are people's current opinion on Cypher and how he can be fixed. He isn't seeing much table these days.
Well it is kind of a hard to imagine how a character with a very long back ground of being a master of pistols, as others seem to point out, is worse rules wise then a random mook that is spawned every X spawns in a GSC colony.
Now maybe his fluff says the stub guns are just stub guns, but he fires mind bullets with them. That would solve the argument, at least as far as why he or rather the weapons he has are so good. Now why Cypher is bad, is a mystery to me.
Looks at the cost o GK brotherhood champion... Maybe the weapons cost like 10pts each.
No sofar the pistols seem not to cost anything, and even at 90 pts that is still 20 pts cheaper then cypher for better rules and more Dakka.
well at least he would cost more then a brotherhood champ who has a storm bolter, but I get what you mean. Well looks like he is a solid choice to takes. Also looking at the GSC stuff, kind of a makes sense why CA droped points on so many characters. without those a GK techmarine would cost twice as much as the pistoliero.
Karol wrote: well at least he would cost more then a brotherhood champ who has a storm bolter, but I get what you mean. Well looks like he is a solid choice to takes. Also looking at the GSC stuff, kind of a makes sense why CA droped points on so many characters. without those a GK techmarine would cost twice as much as the pistoliero.
Do you honestly think you are getting away with lower cost for your brotherhood champion?
Forget it, you have one of those 3+/2+ sv profiles with t4 that get overpriced as soon as they are made.
Slipspace wrote: I may have imagined it, but I thought GW made some comments about it when the Deepstrike rules changed, saying they would change the table to bring it into line with the new rules. If that's the case I wouldn't start making plans for some of these units until we know more!
They have outright stated that Cult Ambush is being overhauled. I have no idea why people ITT are theorycrafting with the old Cult Ambush rules in mind.
Anyway, to throw my hat into the ring- I don't see him being more then 100 points. GW puts a lot of value into statlines and his is garbage- it's basically the definition of a glass cannon.
And even his damage is just okay. With 12 shots he's averaging 3 wounds on a T4 2+ armor save model. What HQ are people thinking of when imagining this guy popping out of reserves and one-shotting them? I feel like 80% of the time he's going to pop out of reserves, wound an HQ and then die because he's T3 4W. And remember, LoS works both ways.
The true value of the character imo comes from how much his rules control your opponent. Just the threat of his cult ambush modifier and guns will corral them into deploying in a way that you can predict and plan against.
Karol wrote: well at least he would cost more then a brotherhood champ who has a storm bolter, but I get what you mean. Well looks like he is a solid choice to takes. Also looking at the GSC stuff, kind of a makes sense why CA droped points on so many characters. without those a GK techmarine would cost twice as much as the pistoliero.
Do you honestly think you are getting away with lower cost for your brotherhood champion?
Forget it, you have one of those 3+/2+ sv profiles with t4 that get overpriced as soon as they are made.
Well I am happy with what ever GW gives me. I don't play GSC, but it looks like a solid and fun codex to play with. In the end it is probablly better to have one more good codex, then another why-did-they-print-this book.
I do agree that even if the guns were costed 10pts, he would sitll a mighty fine unit for 90pts.
Karol wrote: well at least he would cost more then a brotherhood champ who has a storm bolter, but I get what you mean. Well looks like he is a solid choice to takes. Also looking at the GSC stuff, kind of a makes sense why CA droped points on so many characters. without those a GK techmarine would cost twice as much as the pistoliero.
Do you honestly think you are getting away with lower cost for your brotherhood champion?
Forget it, you have one of those 3+/2+ sv profiles with t4 that get overpriced as soon as they are made.
Well I am happy with what ever GW gives me. I don't play GSC, but it looks like a solid and fun codex to play with. In the end it is probablly better to have one more good codex, then another why-did-they-print-this book.
I do agree that even if the guns were costed 10pts, he would sitll a mighty fine unit for 90pts.
No, Karol, this is the wrong attitude, IF any of these Rumors happen to be true, this codex will be worse to play against then 5th ed matt ward GK, which were cancer to the game and started an arms race that ended in the 7th edition shenanigans which was terribly unbalanced, piece meal rules and other niceties.
Well it is kind of a hard to imagine how a character with a very long back ground of being a master of pistols, as others seem to point out, is worse rules wise then a random mook that is spawned every X spawns in a GSC colony.
Which I think is a problem with the rules of Cypher as he is a very underwhelming model to use. If people were truly concerned about lore they would be arguing about boosting poor Cypher into a proper hero/gunslinger status instead of making him barely middling.
I also think this is a good thread to start talking about how Cypher could be fixed. I think it would be interesting if he had been given the possibility of being both Dark Angel and Chaos Space Marine when it comes to allying, and that he could boost both factions with his heroic deeds instead of only the Fallen. It would have given us a strange counterpart to Roboute in a way except a bit toned down. Of course, there would have been some rule about him not being able to play with those who have the Inner Circle keyword as they are of course on the Hunt.
I think the big problem with Cypher is that none of his abilities boost his shooting skills which kinda betrays his master gunslinger reputation. Instead he just lies on standard 2+ with reroll 1s to Hit roll and then special guns. Since we are already talking about lore being representative I think this is something we need to take a good hard look at. A lot of stuff is going to outshoot him despite his legendary status.
Now the interesting thing is that his Plasma pistol is very much a souped up Liberator so he already has quite a bit of damage on his pistols already along with Armor piercing rounds. Now, since people do want him to be a master marksman it would probably be interesting to give him the same rule as the GSC Gunslinger. It would give opportunity for some really cool scenarios on the tabletop where the GSC Gunslinger and The Fallen Gunslinger would face each other in mortal combat. To be fair, at that point Cypher would probably exterminate the GSC since he has near auto-hit with his plasma pistol along with extra shots if he is provided with that rule. My guess is that would appease a lot of people who want Cypher to be representative of the actual lore.
I have to admit that after all his doomsaying I am tempted to start collecting Genestealer Cults, although with my luck that will probably be a mistake and they'll turn out to be middling at best.
I am, however, very tempted to run a Mad Max Biker/Buggy gang with the new GSC models. Would be cool to run such a force against Ork Speed Freakz.
Eldarsif wrote: I have to admit that after all his doomsaying I am tempted to start collecting Genestealer Cults, although with my luck that will probably be a mistake and they'll turn out to be middling at best.
I am, however, very tempted to run a Mad Max Biker/Buggy gang with the new GSC models. Would be cool to run such a force against Ork Speed Freakz.
the sniper gal is decent enough for bikes and if the trait rumors are good you get one that influences bikers quite alot.
Only problem potentially is that you need to generate CP and i have a feeling that bikers are Assult units.
Cypher is still 80 and still massively outclassed and he was ONCE 110.
That kinda illustrates my point that he is a very badly designed character. Nobody took him at 110 points and nobody is taking him at 80 points either(unless they are going for fluff or narrative stuff). As much as I like the lore of Cypher - and look forward to it evolving - he is gak on the table. Which is also why nobody should be looking at him in regards to this. Find some unit that is similar, at a similar price-range, and does get used. Then we have a better comparison.
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Only problem potentially is that you need to generate CP and i have a feeling that bikers are Assult units.
Sadly that is probably true so my guess is that GSC will have their own "Loyal 32" spammed on the table. Not something I am looking forward to.
Cypher is still 80 and still massively outclassed and he was ONCE 110.
That kinda illustrates my point that he is a very badly designed character. Nobody took him at 110 points and nobody is taking him at 80 points either(unless they are going for fluff or narrative stuff). As much as I like the lore of Cypher - and look forward to it evolving - he is gak on the table. Which is also why nobody should be looking at him in regards to this. Find some unit that is similar, at a similar price-range, and does get used. Then we have a better comparison.
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Only problem potentially is that you need to generate CP and i have a feeling that bikers are Assult units.
Sadly that is probably true so my guess is that GSC will have their own "Loyal 32" spammed on the table. Not something I am looking forward to.
Nope, gsc only gets supposedly half cp from broodbrothers.
Supposedly.
Also, please stop framing the Kelermorph as some sort of bold exploration of game design and lore when it's clearly not. If the most recent leak is to be believed, this thing is 60 points... GW understandably wants to push the new GSC release, but it looks like they are aiming well above and beyond their target.
Also, please stop framing the Kelermorph as some sort of bold exploration of game design and lore when it's clearly not. If the most recent leak is to be believed, this thing is 60 points... GW understandably wants to push the new GSC release, but it looks like they are aiming well above and beyond their target.
The sniper on foot is 60. Not Kellermorph.
In the GSC news & rumours thread there's a quote that states the Kelermorph is 60 as well.
Mellon wrote: "Rumours/leaks that were recently posted on the GSC-facebook group by Quentin Forestier."
"Found some more stuff,
Also, please stop framing the Kelermorph as some sort of bold exploration of game design and lore when it's clearly not.
Never said it was bold. I do, however, believe in freedom of design for game developers. Then - depending on if that design is successful or not - we evaluate its results and act accordingly.
I don't know, I just really dislike "Sky is Falling" attitude as it is based on conjectures and catastrophic thinking. I'd rather see it in action and how it fits into faction synergy before whipping myself into rage. I mean, GSC is getting their own Agents of Vect for only 3 CP, but despite being a Drukhari player who saw her stratagem get nerfed I'd rather wait and see how the game plays out. Maybe they deserve a cheaper AoV than Drukhari to make up for other shortcomings. Who knows.
Now, maybe there are people in this thread who are like Dr. Strange and can explore every single eventuality on how to defeat Than... Gunslinger, but I require more than just words on a page. I require plays of the game to see if it is a reliable OP character killer or not. I have at least not made it a custom to play Warhammer 40.000 with only a characters or two on the table which could favor the Gunslinger.
Now, the interesting thing is that the Kelermorph is a part of a Kill Team set coming out so he has at least been tested in such an environment which tends to have a low model count. I am least going to be very interested to hear what KT players say about him over the coming week as they finally get a chance to test him out.
Before someone mentiones: Yes yes, I know, Cypher is the greatest character in the history of the 40k universe. Everyone should worship at his feet and we really need a Codex: Cypher to do him justice, and yes, I am getting a bit tired of Cypher being a metric for everything in this game. With this thread it could become a damn meme at this point. "What's the weather in Chicago right now?", "Oh, nothing ol' Cypher couldn't handle as he bore the big sword on his back." "Damn, Cypher is so damn chill. I want to be Cypher when I grow up." "Nah, don't even try. You are only good for carryin' a stubba' my good friend, you little rascal."
I wonder if we could get a Cypher emoticon.
Edit: Couldn't help myself. had to mock it up. I'd actually buy this book if it were made. Now that I think about it, could Cypher be our Shaggy?
Never said it was bold. I do, however, believe in freedom of design for game developers. Then - depending on if that design is successful or not - we evaluate its results and act accordingly.
I don't know, I just really dislike "Sky is Falling" attitude as it is based on conjectures and catastrophic thinking. I'd rather see it in action and how it fits into faction synergy before whipping myself into rage. I mean, GSC is getting their own Agents of Vect for only 3 CP, but despite being a Drukhari player who saw her stratagem get nerfed I'd rather wait and see how the game plays out. Maybe they deserve a cheaper AoV than Drukhari to make up for other shortcomings. Who knows.
Now, maybe there are people in this thread who are like Dr. Strange and can explore every single eventuality on how to defeat Than... Gunslinger, but I require more than just words on a page. I require plays of the game to see if it is a reliable OP character killer or not. I have at least not made it a custom to play Warhammer 40.000 with only a characters or two on the table which could favor the Gunslinger.
Now, the interesting thing is that the Kelermorph is a part of a Kill Team set coming out so he has at least been tested in such an environment which tends to have a low model count. I am least going to be very interested to hear what KT players say about him over the coming week as they finally get a chance to test him out.
I agree with the general notion, but sometimes the writing on the wall is clear enough to make at least some conclusions. It's not like 40k is too complex to assess a certain unit's effectiveness under reasonable conditions. A profile can be judged without having played it to some extent, because one can derive its performance from previous experiences with the game and other profiles. It all hinges on point cost and means of delivery which both point to being very favourable if the leaks are true. He's also pretty good at killing non-characters.
As for Kill Team, The Liberators are Pistol 1 in that ruleset for some reason. I still hope the 40k profile was some sort of photoshop mistake
As for Kill Team, The Liberators are Pistol 1 in that ruleset for some reason. I still hope the 40k profile was some sort of photoshop mistake
It's because of how damage works for actually killing models in the Kill Team ruleset. D2 is terrifying, and D2 on a BS2 platform even moreso. That its D2 on a BS2 platform with three different weapons means he's the only unit that can reliably multikill with shooting attacks (you can only kill one model per weapon per turn, barring a handful of edge case scenarios).
As for Kill Team, The Liberators are Pistol 1 in that ruleset for some reason. I still hope the 40k profile was some sort of photoshop mistake
It's because of how damage works for actually killing models in the Kill Team ruleset. D2 is terrifying, and D2 on a BS2 platform even moreso. That its D2 on a BS2 platform with three different weapons means he's the only unit that can reliably multikill with shooting attacks (you can only kill one model per weapon per turn, barring a handful of edge case scenarios).
They are still D2, just Pistol 1 instead of Pistol 2:
They are still D2, just Pistol 1 instead of Pistol 2:
That's...what I said?
If it were Pistol 2 he could sit in the middle of a kill team board and have a nonzero chance of wiping out an entire side in a single shooting phase by himself.
They are still D2, just Pistol 1 instead of Pistol 2:
That's...what I said?
If it were Pistol 2 he could sit in the middle of a kill team board and have a nonzero chance of wiping out an entire side in a single shooting phase by himself.
My bad, I'm not that familiar with Kill Team and I thought the D2 was the important part here.
My bad, I'm not that familiar with Kill Team and I thought the D2 was the important part here.
It's one of the components. I genuinely question whether the person who came up with the statline understood how it would interact with the injury roll system.
Oh noes, the GSC might be good! The horror, GSC being good invalidates my army! Let me scream my fictional canonical 'logic' about why that should never be!
By the way, the same rumors also completely hosed their ability to take AM detachments. Perhaps GW is compensating for that in some regard. Amazingly it's almost like they chose not to do a lazy implementation of GSC.
But please, continue with your fluffy, fairy tale justifications of why GSC should suck, the 'logic' is fascinating.
So let's take inventory:
GSC lost Index ambush, which by any reasonable measure was the best deep strike mechanic in the entire game.
GSC now gets half CP from their AM detachments (in other words, they will probably never take an AM detachment ever again).
GSC gained some interesting new units and god forbid, some decent ranged weapons.
GSC lost Index ambush, which by any reasonable measure was the best deep strike mechanic in the entire game.
So what, all armies lost alpha strike capability, it also was a gimmick that was overrelied on.
GSC now gets half CP from their AM detachments (in other words, they will probably never take an AM detachment ever again).
Did GSC ever need AM in the first place as a crutch for CP?
I sincerly doubt it.
GSC gained some interesting new units and god forbid, some decent ranged weapons.
Two of which are better then any charachter that does something similar.
In the case of the Kellermorph it outperforms "the Gunslinger" of the game.
In case of the sniper, it grants a 6"/12" for biker bubble.
WITHOUT either needing a trait (WB trait is even more creeped by this), in case of the Kellermorph that just doubles his allready substantial ROF by double nearly, which other factions have to pay CP for.
I kinda think that it is absolutely right to question the design here.
Not Online!!! wrote: I kinda think that it is absolutely right to question the design here.
Super, then perhaps you should craft a response around design mechanics, math, and logic rather than a fictional rationalization for why scummy GSC should only have crap ranged weapons.
But please continue with the fairy tale indignation.
Not Online!!! wrote: I kinda think that it is absolutely right to question the design here.
Super, then perhaps you should craft a response around design mechanics, math, and logic rather than a fictional rationalization for why scummy GSC should only have crap ranged weapons.
But please continue with the fairy tale indignation.
You might want to check the earlier pages where people were talking about average damage output, means of delivery and points efficiency then.
The inconsistencies with other weapons and units are just the cherry on top here.
The issue is, Cypher isn't good as anything other than a troll.
I love taking him-but ONLY for his "Warlord Trait". Everything else is secondary.
I'd be fine with Cypher going to 150 points if he got a substantial bad-ass boost, which I think we can agree, is probably better than just making him cheaper and cheaper.
BertBert wrote: You might want to check the earlier pages where people were talking about average damage output, means of delivery and points efficiency then.
The inconsistencies with other weapons and units are just the cherry on top here.
I'm quite aware. I'm also quite aware, that as usual, those calculations were done in a vacuum, unit to unit and as usual, fail to take in the context of the entire army, all the units within and the permutations that result.
The chances of anyone on these boards (or GW themselves to be fair) accurately comparing all of the variables within the space of a forum post is laughable, to put it nicely.
Not Online!!! wrote: I kinda think that it is absolutely right to question the design here.
Super, then perhaps you should craft a response around design mechanics, math, and logic rather than a fictional rationalization for why scummy GSC should only have crap ranged weapons.
But please continue with the fairy tale indignation.
How about a direct comparison between cypher and the Kellermorph plus some randos to fill the point gap, i am sure cypher has a fighting chance....
How about the fact that the biker generates a 12 " bubble for other bikers which are rumored to be just 10 pts. and a 6" bubble for non bikers?
With a Move of 14”, this Fast Attack choice is perfect for grabbing objectives, harassing targets of opportunity and hunting down vulnerable foes such as Astra Militarum Heavy Weapons Squads. What’s more, as Bikers, you can even set them up underground during deployment, meaning that you can threaten anywhere on the battlefield from the moment they arrive. Atalan Jackals are also one of the army’s more durable units, with Toughness 4 and 2 Wounds apiece (or 4 Wounds on the optional Wolfquad!), while their Skilled Outrider ability helps to thwart incoming fire.
*GW themselves. on warhammer community.
which are shaping up to be quite the nuissance. Especially considering that 2w models normally start at a higher point bracket.Not to mention a ingraned -1 to hit against all ranges.
That alone makes them superior to any other biker units just traitwise.
I'm quite aware. I'm also quite aware, that as usual, those calculations were done in a vacuum, unit to unit and as usual, fail to take in the context of the entire army, all the units within and the permutations that result.
The chances of anyone on these boards (or GW themselves to be fair) accurately comparing all of the variables within the space of a forum post is laughable, to put it nicely.
So...
If no analysis is credible, how then is your analysis that what has been shown so far isnt problematic credible either?
BertBert wrote: You might want to check the earlier pages where people were talking about average damage output, means of delivery and points efficiency then.
The inconsistencies with other weapons and units are just the cherry on top here.
I'm quite aware. I'm also quite aware, that as usual, those calculations were done in a vacuum, unit to unit and as usual, fail to take in the context of the entire army, all the units within and the permutations that result.
The chances of anyone on these boards (or GW themselves to be fair) accurately comparing all of the variables within the space of a forum post is laughable, to put it nicely.
But that's all we have to work with right now. The vacuum is slowly filling with air as more and more pieces of the puzzle being revealed and at this point some potentially broken design choices are being pointed out.
If it turns out to be a perfectly fine codex in the end, nobody is going to complain, but for now we can only discuss what we've got.
BertBert wrote: You might want to check the earlier pages where people were talking about average damage output, means of delivery and points efficiency then.
The inconsistencies with other weapons and units are just the cherry on top here.
I'm quite aware. I'm also quite aware, that as usual, those calculations were done in a vacuum, unit to unit and as usual, fail to take in the context of the entire army, all the units within and the permutations that result.
The chances of anyone on these boards (or GW themselves to be fair) accurately comparing all of the variables within the space of a forum post is laughable, to put it nicely.
But that's all we have to work with right now. The vacuum is slowly filling with air as more and more pieces of the puzzle being revealed and at this point some potentially broken design choices are being pointed out.
If it turns out to be a perfectly fine codex in the end, nobody is going to complain, but for now we can only discuss what we've got.
So maybe wait a week so we can see the full picture before you declare them to be broken?
Also, please stop framing the Kelermorph as some sort of bold exploration of game design and lore when it's clearly not. If the most recent leak is to be believed, this thing is 60 points... GW understandably wants to push the new GSC release, but it looks like they are aiming well above and beyond their target.
The sniper on foot is 60. Not Kellermorph.
In the GSC news & rumours thread there's a quote that states the Kelermorph is 60 as well.
Mellon wrote: "Rumours/leaks that were recently posted on the GSC-facebook group by Quentin Forestier."
"Found some more stuff,
Kelermorph is 60 [...]""
If that remains true then he is the most poorly costed unit in the game - unless he's max 1.
Yes, he'll require CP, but GSC has a pretty easy time of that.
Not Online!!! wrote: I kinda think that it is absolutely right to question the design here.
Super, then perhaps you should craft a response around design mechanics, math, and logic rather than a fictional rationalization for why scummy GSC should only have crap ranged weapons.
But please continue with the fairy tale indignation.
How about a direct comparison between cypher and the Kellermorph plus some randos to fill the point gap, i am sure cypher has a fighting chance....
How about the fact that the biker generates a 12 " bubble for other bikers which are rumored to be just 10 pts. and a 6" bubble for non bikers?
With a Move of 14”, this Fast Attack choice is perfect for grabbing objectives, harassing targets of opportunity and hunting down vulnerable foes such as Astra Militarum Heavy Weapons Squads. What’s more, as Bikers, you can even set them up underground during deployment, meaning that you can threaten anywhere on the battlefield from the moment they arrive. Atalan Jackals are also one of the army’s more durable units, with Toughness 4 and 2 Wounds apiece (or 4 Wounds on the optional Wolfquad!), while their Skilled Outrider ability helps to thwart incoming fire.
*GW themselves. on warhammer community.
which are shaping up to be quite the nuissance. Especially considering that 2w models normally start at a higher point bracket.Not to mention a ingraned -1 to hit against all ranges.
That alone makes them superior to any other biker units just traitwise.
Yeah, maybe they cost 10pts because they're equipped with one guard-tier ranged weapon (BS4 autoguns or guard shotguns is the basic armament) and not, as other bikers are armed with, twin versions of better ranged weapons. And they also most likely since they're neophytes get 2 S3 attacks in melee total (with their free cultist knife chainsword attack)
Gwarsh, I wonder why those models cost only 10pts, they must be sooo op. They do half the ranged damage that a tactical marine does for 3 points less, and everyone knows how much this forum considers those guys to be regular ol' damage hoses.
OK, I don't think anyone here wants the GSC to come out and be utter trash, so the constant back and forth bickering is quite childish. The point that many are making, is that shouldn't be Mary Sued (hate that term really) to achieve this end, especially when it slaps the lore in the face. There is NO way that a Liberator autostub should be better than relic weapons from chapters that date back thousands of years. That is poor writing, piss poor writing actually. It's obvious that someone in the design team has a serious hard on for GSC (who would have thought they were the faction that were going to get a crap-ton of new models instead of harlequins, Necrons, Drukhari etc).
I want GSC to be viable, fun, tricksy, all of those things, but don't achieve those goals by super-buffing somewhat average characters. The comparison to Cypher is a very valid one, he is supposed the be THE gunslinger of the galaxy, with 1000s of years exeperience, some guiding hand assisting him and wielding ancient artefacts for weapons. His bolt pistol should be D2 if the Kellermorph is a benchmark and be able to target characters. Then he migh be taken more seriously, right now he's just not taken, period.
Except Cypher is, like most Marines, not very good.
He's got a nifty ability that has NOTHING to do with his offensive prowess. If Cypher was more badass (as he should be) would there still be the same objections?
bullyboy wrote: OK, I don't think anyone here wants the GSC to come out and be utter trash, so the constant back and forth bickering is quite childish. The point that many are making, is that shouldn't be Mary Sued (hate that term really) to achieve this end, especially when it slaps the lore in the face. There is NO way that a Liberator autostub should be better than relic weapons from chapters that date back thousands of years. That is poor writing, piss poor writing actually. It's obvious that someone in the design team has a serious hard on for GSC (who would have thought they were the faction that were going to get a crap-ton of new models instead of harlequins, Necrons, Drukhari etc).
I want GSC to be viable, fun, tricksy, all of those things, but don't achieve those goals by super-buffing somewhat average characters. The comparison to Cypher is a very valid one, he is supposed the be THE gunslinger of the galaxy, with 1000s of years exeperience, some guiding hand assisting him and wielding ancient artefacts for weapons. His bolt pistol should be D2 if the Kellermorph is a benchmark and be able to target characters. Then he migh be taken more seriously, right now he's just not taken, period.
Excellent post. See? Now we're having a semantic argument, not a rules argument, so much better.
I wonder how genesniper lady compares to other unique sniper characters? Surely given the indignance of this forum, she must do way more damage.
sniper lady:
BS2+ heavy 1 S4 AP-2 D3, mortal on a 6. 80 points. Allows units around her to add 1 to hit rolls vs her targets if she hits.
Illic Nightspear:
BS2+ heavy 1 S4 AP-3 Dd3, mortal on a 6, wounds nonvehicles on a 2+. 80 points.
Sgt Telion:
BS2+ Heavy 2 S4 Ap-1 Dd3, gives a unit of scouts near him +1 to hit, 65 points.
Vindicare Assassin:
BS2+ Heavy 1 S5 AP-3 Dd3, does D6 damage on a roll to wound of 6, always wounds infantry on a 2+, ignores cover. 80 points.
Holy moly she costs....exactly the same or more than all of them. And also...does the least damage. Weird. Kind of like she's paying for having a pretty good aura buff - which, I hate to point out, you're probably essentially giving up her turn of shooting if you choose to actually use it because if she tags a character, her buddies can't shoot them anyway.
So the complaint here is she's not...less awesome...enough than other factions' special sniper characters?
Automatically Appended Next Post: Also, so. fething. amused by the argument "I don't mind Genestealer Cults being good, I just don't want them to be Mary Sues! They shouldn't be as powerful as the greatest gunslinger in the galaxy who's a super badass wearing a tattery hood who wields 1000 year old relic weapons and is guided by the hand of some kind of divine provenance."
"GSC Mary Sues bad! Only Marine Mary Sues allowed!"
The bikers are without doubt going to be a problem. 10 points is far too cheap for what they offer. They can he outfitted with a variety of weapons to make them more killy or to keep them cheap as needs require. T4, 2W, 4+ is the same durability as a Nob (who cost almost 50% more) and they move much faster and have an inbuilt -1 to hit.
The wolf buggy at 50 pts is far superior to the Orks buggies, the only difference being -1 Toughness and a Wound (in some cases, not all). Not to mention it has greater flexibility and can buff other units.
These units are objectively better. They also have the option to ally in hyper efficient Guard units. GSC are going to be a problem, the balance of this release is baffling.
Also, so. fething. amused by the argument "I don't mind Genestealer Cults being good, I just don't want them to be Mary Sues! They shouldn't be as powerful as the greatest gunslinger in the galaxy who's a super badass wearing a tattery hood who wields 1000 year old relic weapons and is guided by the hand of some kind of divine provenance."
"GSC Mary Sues bad! Only Marine Mary Sues allowed!"
Yeah, maybe they cost 10pts because they're equipped with one guard-tier ranged weapon (BS4 autoguns or guard shotguns is the basic armament) and not, as other bikers are armed with, twin versions of better ranged weapons. And they also most likely since they're neophytes get 2 S3 attacks in melee total (with their free cultist knife chainsword attack)
Gwarsh, I wonder why those models cost only 10pts, they must be sooo op. They do half the ranged damage that a tactical marine does for 3 points less, and everyone knows how much this forum considers those guys to be regular ol' damage hoses.
To me a 10pts 14" movment model with 2w and -1 to hit is awesome. And that is without any interactions, stratagems, auras etc. The only time I can think someone could claim such a unit at 10pts per model isn't great, if his base unit was catachans that zipp around the board with a speed of a jetplane.
I'd rather discuss the leaks and previews now.
What is there to talk about when the book comes out anyway? The closest change is what, spring FAQ? so unless GSC are really over powered, this won't get changed for the next 3-4 months.
So the complaint here is she's not...less awesome...enough than other factions' special sniper characters?
why should she be anywhere equal to a super ancient legend tier eldar, peek of imperial gene tech with artefact tier weapons or one of the best marine sniper in the fluff. She is a leader of bikers. Same with the tri gun guy, he aint even a special character, just a sort of GSC hybrid that pops up when the cult reachs a certain sized. And he is better then the guy whose whole shtick is being The Gunslinger. That is like an IG dude wresling down a primarch, because he is so awesome.
An Actual Englishman wrote: The bikers are without doubt going to be a problem. 10 points is far too cheap for what they offer. They can he outfitted with a variety of weapons to make them more killy or to keep them cheap as needs require. T4, 2W, 4+ is the same durability as a Nob (who cost almost 50% more) and they move much faster and have an inbuilt -1 to hit.
The wolf buggy at 50 pts is far superior to the Orks buggies, the only difference being -1 Toughness and a Wound (in some cases, not all). Not to mention it has greater flexibility and can buff other units.
These units are objectively better. They also have the option to ally in hyper efficient Guard units. GSC are going to be a problem, the balance of this release is baffling.
Couple things here:
1) We have no idea their save is a 4+, we also have no reason to think so. One poster in the news post said "I assume their save will be a 4+" despite the fact that they're based on models with a 5+ save (neophytes.)
2) We know what their weapon list is. It doesn't make them that killy. If they are indeed based on the neophyte statline (probable) they will have S3, A1, WS/BS 4+. They have the option to take either a standard power weapon or some kind of "power hammer" on their sgt, and the choice of bolt pistols, autopistols, autoguns, and shotguns on the basic bikers. 1 in 4 can have a standard guard grenade launcher, the second-least powerful special weapon available to guardsmen. The only thing that can get a potent weapon upgrade is the quad, which basically can have a heavy flamer, unless you really feel like putting a 24" range half-damage lascannon on a unit that has mostly melee equipment. Nobz are WS3+, S5, A5 with a double choppa. These guys are a guardsman with a chainsword. Of course nobz cost more.
3) you saying that the ridgerunner is 50pts is totally disingenuous. The ork buggies come standard with all their wargear. With its standard wargear, we know the ridgerunner is 84pts, not 50 (leaker forgot heavy stubbers cost 2). Since Guard MLs are 15 I suppose it could be 74 with that? I'm haivng a problem coming up with one of the ork buggies that isn't the garbage squigbuggy that does less damage than a single missile launcher/24" range lascannon at BS4+. As an example, compare the damage of the ridgerunner vs the shokkjump: 0.5 lascannon hits, 3 S4 Ap- stubber hits stationary, 0.33 and 2 on the move, vs 1.33 S8 lascannon hits, 0.33 rokkit hits that don't care if it's moving or not. Really confused by what you mean by "greater flexibility" when all its weapons are Heavy and it does nothing in melee vs the ork buggies that can move and shoot and usually deal at least passable damage in melee.
An Actual Englishman wrote: The bikers are without doubt going to be a problem. 10 points is far too cheap for what they offer. They can he outfitted with a variety of weapons to make them more killy or to keep them cheap as needs require. T4, 2W, 4+ is the same durability as a Nob (who cost almost 50% more) and they move much faster and have an inbuilt -1 to hit.
The wolf buggy at 50 pts is far superior to the Orks buggies, the only difference being -1 Toughness and a Wound (in some cases, not all). Not to mention it has greater flexibility and can buff other units.
These units are objectively better. They also have the option to ally in hyper efficient Guard units. GSC are going to be a problem, the balance of this release is baffling.
*Cries in overcosted speed freeks* Man if we don't get point drops on bikes & buggies in the FAQ then I'll cry. To be fair Nobz are real punchy for 14 ppm so that's not an issue.
Those bikes though, phew. Wonder if they're weak offensively? Cause 10ppm for that statline is pretty darn sweet
2) We know what their weapon list is. It doesn't make them that killy. If they are indeed based on the neophyte statline (probable) they will have S3, A1, WS/BS 4+. They have the option to take either a standard power weapon or some kind of "power hammer" on their sgt, and the choice of bolt pistols, autopistols, autoguns, and shotguns on the basic bikers. 1 in 4 can have a standard guard grenade launcher, the second-least powerful special weapon available to guardsmen. The only thing that can get a potent weapon upgrade is the quad, which basically can have a heavy flamer, unless you really feel like putting a 24" range half-damage lascannon on a unit that has mostly melee equipment. Nobz are WS3+, S5, A5 with a double choppa. These guys are a guardsman with a chainsword. Of course nobz cost more.
I assume the role the bikers are meant for is more board control, holding objectives and tying up gunlines. That seems like it'd be a balanced take on 'em because if they have real killing abilities as well then 10ppm is a real bargain
*Cries in overcosted speed freeks* Man if we don't get point drops on bikes & buggies in the FAQ then I'll cry
From what I understand FAQs are not going to have point changes, only CA have those, so it is 11 months waiting minimum. Unless GW decides to update orcs with new models or a new detachment.
the_scotsman wrote: I wonder how genesniper lady compares to other unique sniper characters? Surely given the indignance of this forum, she must do way more damage.
sniper lady:
BS2+ heavy 1 S4 AP-2 D3, mortal on a 6. 80 points. Allows units around her to add 1 to hit rolls vs her targets if she hits.
Illic Nightspear:
BS2+ heavy 1 S4 AP-3 Dd3, mortal on a 6, wounds nonvehicles on a 2+. 80 points.
Sgt Telion:
BS2+ Heavy 2 S4 Ap-1 Dd3, gives a unit of scouts near him +1 to hit, 65 points.
Vindicare Assassin:
BS2+ Heavy 1 S5 AP-3 Dd3, does D6 damage on a roll to wound of 6, always wounds infantry on a 2+, ignores cover. 80 points.
Holy moly she costs....exactly the same or more than all of them. And also...does the least damage. Weird. Kind of like she's paying for having a pretty good aura buff - which, I hate to point out, you're probably essentially giving up her turn of shooting if you choose to actually use it because if she tags a character, her buddies can't shoot them anyway.
So the complaint here is she's not...less awesome...enough than other factions' special sniper characters?
Automatically Appended Next Post: Also, so. fething. amused by the argument "I don't mind Genestealer Cults being good, I just don't want them to be Mary Sues! They shouldn't be as powerful as the greatest gunslinger in the galaxy who's a super badass wearing a tattery hood who wields 1000 year old relic weapons and is guided by the hand of some kind of divine provenance."
"GSC Mary Sues bad! Only Marine Mary Sues allowed!"
I have no issue with the sniper character, she matches most others for points.
As for your childish remark at the end (kind of a usual trait for you), if you don't care about the lore for the game, why bother playing? Yes, Cypher is the ultimate Mary Sue, that's pretty much his thing. I want to know how the design team are going to spin the Kellermorph story to actually surpass this guy, should be hilarious.
The gun is too good for what it should be, and when it combines with his abilities it becomes silly. take one or the other, just not both. Either keep the gun the same but max it at 3 shots total, or drop the stats and keep the rules so he can effectively get 12 shots, but at S4 AP0 1D. Period.
the_scotsman wrote: I wonder how genesniper lady compares to other unique sniper characters? Surely given the indignance of this forum, she must do way more damage.
Spoiler:
sniper lady:
BS2+ heavy 1 S4 AP-2 D3, mortal on a 6. 80 points. Allows units around her to add 1 to hit rolls vs her targets if she hits.
Illic Nightspear:
BS2+ heavy 1 S4 AP-3 Dd3, mortal on a 6, wounds nonvehicles on a 2+. 80 points.
Sgt Telion:
BS2+ Heavy 2 S4 Ap-1 Dd3, gives a unit of scouts near him +1 to hit, 65 points.
Vindicare Assassin:
BS2+ Heavy 1 S5 AP-3 Dd3, does D6 damage on a roll to wound of 6, always wounds infantry on a 2+, ignores cover. 80 points.
Holy moly she costs....exactly the same or more than all of them. And also...does the least damage. Weird. Kind of like she's paying for having a pretty good aura buff - which, I hate to point out, you're probably essentially giving up her turn of shooting if you choose to actually use it because if she tags a character, her buddies can't shoot them anyway.
So the complaint here is she's not...less awesome...enough than other factions' special sniper characters?
For me personally? It's that she's a weird blend of killy with support. It's also that she's not tied to a specific <Cult> like Telion or Illic(or Darkstrider for the Tau, who isn't really a Sniper but is basically just Support) so she can really get 100% usage out of her stuff.
I'm super happy for GSC players to get such cool stuff, don't get me wrong--but this feels (to me) like it belongs to a whole different game system or like a lot of these were ideas that were tested and rejected for other armies.
Also, so. fething. amused by the argument "I don't mind Genestealer Cults being good, I just don't want them to be Mary Sues! They shouldn't be as powerful as the greatest gunslinger in the galaxy who's a super badass wearing a tattery hood who wields 1000 year old relic weapons and is guided by the hand of some kind of divine provenance."
"GSC Mary Sues bad! Only Marine Mary Sues allowed!"
Gonna be honest here, my complaint with regards to Cypher would be that he just isn't that impressive and hasn't been in 8th.
Also for the record, I don't mind the Kelermorph's guns being so strong. People forget that Stubbers/Autoguns(and their pistol equivalents!) are able to chamber lots of different rounds. For all we know the Kelermorphs are using an explosive round or something equally custom-made.
*Cries in overcosted speed freeks* Man if we don't get point drops on bikes & buggies in the FAQ then I'll cry
From what I understand FAQs are not going to have point changes, only CA have those, so it is 11 months waiting minimum. Unless GW decides to update orcs with new models or a new detachment.
That can't be true, regardless of what GW has said. IK and dark eldar weren't touched in CA so what, they're going to be updated 18 months after the codex dropped? If they're updated then orks should be as well.
Also, side note, CA is the worst place for points updates. If the book has to be done 6 months before it drops then half the changes or lack thereof are already obsolote.
the_scotsman wrote: I wonder how genesniper lady compares to other unique sniper characters? Surely given the indignance of this forum, she must do way more damage.
sniper lady:
BS2+ heavy 1 S4 AP-2 D3, mortal on a 6. 80 points. Allows units around her to add 1 to hit rolls vs her targets if she hits.
Illic Nightspear:
BS2+ heavy 1 S4 AP-3 Dd3, mortal on a 6, wounds nonvehicles on a 2+. 80 points.
Sgt Telion:
BS2+ Heavy 2 S4 Ap-1 Dd3, gives a unit of scouts near him +1 to hit, 65 points.
Vindicare Assassin:
BS2+ Heavy 1 S5 AP-3 Dd3, does D6 damage on a roll to wound of 6, always wounds infantry on a 2+, ignores cover. 80 points.
Holy moly she costs....exactly the same or more than all of them. And also...does the least damage. Weird. Kind of like she's paying for having a pretty good aura buff - which, I hate to point out, you're probably essentially giving up her turn of shooting if you choose to actually use it because if she tags a character, her buddies can't shoot them anyway.
So the complaint here is she's not...less awesome...enough than other factions' special sniper characters?
Automatically Appended Next Post: Also, so. fething. amused by the argument "I don't mind Genestealer Cults being good, I just don't want them to be Mary Sues! They shouldn't be as powerful as the greatest gunslinger in the galaxy who's a super badass wearing a tattery hood who wields 1000 year old relic weapons and is guided by the hand of some kind of divine provenance."
"GSC Mary Sues bad! Only Marine Mary Sues allowed!"
I have no issue with the sniper character, she matches most others for points.
As for your childish remark at the end (kind of a usual trait for you), if you don't care about the lore for the game, why bother playing? Yes, Cypher is the ultimate Mary Sue, that's pretty much his thing. I want to know how the design team are going to spin the Kellermorph story to actually surpass this guy, should be hilarious.
The gun is too good for what it should be, and when it combines with his abilities it becomes silly. take one or the other, just not both. Either keep the gun the same but max it at 3 shots total, or drop the stats and keep the rules so he can effectively get 12 shots, but at S4 AP0 1D. Period.
I like the lore of the game, I just get very tired of any kind of fandom-rage especially when it comes to the subject of the relative power level of fan-favorite characters. Whether that be comic book superheroes or sci-fi characters or 40k factions, complaining that Thing B should not be allowed to be as good as Thing A because Thing A is a thing I like that's been around for a while never fails to be annoying. If the R.Kellymorph is overly powerful, then he should be nerfed. But so far, he just looks like a 60 point assassin character who might (gasp) actually not be total garbage at the role of showing up and killing enemy characters.
My reaction to this is: Great. Characters in 8th should have more counters, it's ridiculous that people would rather have the CHARACTER keyword than 10W T7 2+ 4++ with a FNP because it actually makes your model safer. Personally, if someone were to go up against my deathwatch where I do have footslogging Hq's walking around and spent CPs to sneak him in 3" away from my screen line, I'd probably just say "oh that's cute, I have this here Auspex scan and you get a facefull of storm bolters." Or if he had other things deep striking I'd probably just ignore him, because even with 12 shots, he doesn't kill my terminator captain with average rolls.
Saying he's not allowed to be a character with pistols because some other guy who was released two years ago with the indexes is underpowered is goofy. Buff the other guy instead.
An Actual Englishman wrote: The bikers are without doubt going to be a problem. 10 points is far too cheap for what they offer. They can he outfitted with a variety of weapons to make them more killy or to keep them cheap as needs require. T4, 2W, 4+ is the same durability as a Nob (who cost almost 50% more) and they move much faster and have an inbuilt -1 to hit.
The wolf buggy at 50 pts is far superior to the Orks buggies, the only difference being -1 Toughness and a Wound (in some cases, not all). Not to mention it has greater flexibility and can buff other units.
These units are objectively better. They also have the option to ally in hyper efficient Guard units. GSC are going to be a problem, the balance of this release is baffling.
Couple things here:
1) We have no idea their save is a 4+, we also have no reason to think so. One poster in the news post said "I assume their save will be a 4+" despite the fact that they're based on models with a 5+ save (neophytes.)
2) We know what their weapon list is. It doesn't make them that killy. If they are indeed based on the neophyte statline (probable) they will have S3, A1, WS/BS 4+. They have the option to take either a standard power weapon or some kind of "power hammer" on their sgt, and the choice of bolt pistols, autopistols, autoguns, and shotguns on the basic bikers. 1 in 4 can have a standard guard grenade launcher, the second-least powerful special weapon available to guardsmen. The only thing that can get a potent weapon upgrade is the quad, which basically can have a heavy flamer, unless you really feel like putting a 24" range half-damage lascannon on a unit that has mostly melee equipment. Nobz are WS3+, S5, A5 with a double choppa. These guys are a guardsman with a chainsword. Of course nobz cost more.
3) you saying that the ridgerunner is 50pts is totally disingenuous. The ork buggies come standard with all their wargear. With its standard wargear, we know the ridgerunner is 84pts, not 50 (leaker forgot heavy stubbers cost 2). Since Guard MLs are 15 I suppose it could be 74 with that? I'm haivng a problem coming up with one of the ork buggies that isn't the garbage squigbuggy that does less damage than a single missile launcher/24" range lascannon at BS4+. As an example, compare the damage of the ridgerunner vs the shokkjump: 0.5 lascannon hits, 3 S4 Ap- stubber hits stationary, 0.33 and 2 on the move, vs 1.33 S8 lascannon hits, 0.33 rokkit hits that don't care if it's moving or not. Really confused by what you mean by "greater flexibility" when all its weapons are Heavy and it does nothing in melee vs the ork buggies that can move and shoot and usually deal at least passable damage in melee.
Thank you - I was going to type this up, but you saved me a ton of time.
I like the lore of the game, I just get very tired of any kind of fandom-rage especially when it comes to the subject of the relative power level of fan-favorite characters. Whether that be comic book superheroes or sci-fi characters or 40k factions, complaining that Thing B should not be allowed to be as good as Thing A because Thing A is a thing I like that's been around for a while never fails to be annoying. If the R.Kellymorph is overly powerful, then he should be nerfed. But so far, he just looks like a 60 point assassin character who might (gasp) actually not be total garbage at the role of showing up and killing enemy characters.
Right - a game that tries to match fluff to rules would be ridiculously boring.
If GW wants to give an army a sniper it should be with rules that actually make it worth taking and not a grubby cultist with a makeshift spitball straw.
I think the Kelermorph looks like an autotake, but its 0-1 I don't think thats the worst thing in the world.
I can vaguely - vaguely - appreciate the idea that stub guns shouldn't be this good, but if they were weird glowy mining guns would people go "oh that's fine then"?
I mean he could just have 3 laspistols - but in that case he wouldn't be worthwhile taking versus anyone.
The big problem of comparing lore and gameplay is that the spectrum of values for units is very very very small. Space Marines are hulking brutes compared to humans in the lore yet they are only str 4 compared to IGstr 3 because the range is just too small.
On a more related note it feels more and more like people were expecting Astra Militarum Xenos. Basically just a reskin of Astra Militarum with a few genestealers thrown in.
With the full 12 shots, he deals 5 unsaved wounds to standard 3+svMEQhqs or 9 wounds to standard Guard HQs (who tend to have a 5++, I guess this also holds true for Tau and Eldar and stuff who usually have 4+ armor and T3).
So, I'm not sure how he's wiping 1-4 HQs. Looks more like 1, MAYBE 2 if your opponent positions them pretty poorly, and in that instance they'd better be cheapo guys with low defenses.
He's a suicide bomb who can reliably make his points back if you dump CPs into him. In his "amazing success" use case, I can see him dropping a 120-ish point HQ for his 60 points. Seems less amazing than what happens if I, say, dump 5CP into a space marine captain with a thunder hammer...
Insectum7 wrote: So is 3 Smash Captains, which is a pretty heavy precedent.
Agreed. At the same time, if GSC goes with the 0-1 limitation on all the characters as rumored, that is an unprecedented handicap, one that I think is interesting and flavorful, it also puts some of these characters in perspective since they won't end up getting spammed.
the_scotsman wrote: With the full 12 shots, he deals 5 unsaved wounds to standard 3+svMEQhqs or 9 wounds to standard Guard HQs (who tend to have a 5++, I guess this also holds true for Tau and Eldar and stuff who usually have 4+ armor and T3).
So, I'm not sure how he's wiping 1-4 HQs. Looks more like 1, MAYBE 2 if your opponent positions them pretty poorly, and in that instance they'd better be cheapo guys with low defenses.
He's a suicide bomb who can reliably make his points back if you dump CPs into him. In his "amazing success" use case, I can see him dropping a 120-ish point HQ for his 60 points. Seems less amazing than what happens if I, say, dump 5CP into a space marine captain with a thunder hammer...
With 5 CP he deals 10 unsaved to MEQ and 16 to 5++ GEQ. That's 2 marine HQs or 4 company commanders. Obviously not all will be in range. A simple 2 CP spend will be enough to get him 3" away and a chance to blast away. Now add two more of those for less points than 1.5 smash captains.
60 points killing 120 is a far larger actual net return when that HQ was giving rerolls to the army. HQs like Ahriman are pretty crucial and not often dead by turn 2.
I'm not trying to convey panic at this time, but this guy DOES have a real potential to be busted.
JNAProductions wrote: Except he has three guns. That’s three targets max-he can never kill four characters unless they’re all within 12” immediately upon deep striking.
The point still stands. (Potentially) 3 dead company commanders or 1 dead marine HQ for 60 points and 2 CP is not really a reasonable trade, in my opinion.
Wow the doom and gloom over this is funny. It looks to me like a character that can really punish bad positioning (is that a bad thing?) and might force some armies like guard to spend points on transports or a bodyguard for characters (again is this bad?). I mean how is this any worse then a smash captain dropping in and crushing a knight?
1) We have no idea their save is a 4+, we also have no reason to think so. One poster in the news post said "I assume their save will be a 4+" despite the fact that they're based on models with a 5+ save (neophytes.)
2) We know what their weapon list is. It doesn't make them that killy. If they are indeed based on the neophyte statline (probable) they will have S3, A1, WS/BS 4+. They have the option to take either a standard power weapon or some kind of "power hammer" on their sgt, and the choice of bolt pistols, autopistols, autoguns, and shotguns on the basic bikers. 1 in 4 can have a standard guard grenade launcher, the second-least powerful special weapon available to guardsmen. The only thing that can get a potent weapon upgrade is the quad, which basically can have a heavy flamer, unless you really feel like putting a 24" range half-damage lascannon on a unit that has mostly melee equipment. Nobz are WS3+, S5, A5 with a double choppa. These guys are a guardsman with a chainsword. Of course nobz cost more.
3) you saying that the ridgerunner is 50pts is totally disingenuous. The ork buggies come standard with all their wargear. With its standard wargear, we know the ridgerunner is 84pts, not 50 (leaker forgot heavy stubbers cost 2). Since Guard MLs are 15 I suppose it could be 74 with that? I'm haivng a problem coming up with one of the ork buggies that isn't the garbage squigbuggy that does less damage than a single missile launcher/24" range lascannon at BS4+. As an example, compare the damage of the ridgerunner vs the shokkjump: 0.5 lascannon hits, 3 S4 Ap- stubber hits stationary, 0.33 and 2 on the move, vs 1.33 S8 lascannon hits, 0.33 rokkit hits that don't care if it's moving or not. Really confused by what you mean by "greater flexibility" when all its weapons are Heavy and it does nothing in melee vs the ork buggies that can move and shoot and usually deal at least passable damage in melee.
1. Someone posted their save was 4+..... Its a safe bet.
2. You might have missed that I was comparing the two units durability and speed. Choppa Nobs deal 0 damage if they cannot strike their target in melee which means those 5 str 5 AP0 attacks are utterly meaningless. We'll see how killy they are when they have +1 to hit for every ranged attack all the time. We already know under cost durable units are a problem ala infantry. These bikers look to be exactly that.
3. The Ork buggies vary in cost from 100pts to 140pts, note that they are both significantly more than 74 or 84 pts. You keep comparing damage and completely ignoring durability which is like viewing only the ground floor of a house before purchase. What I mean by greater flexibility is that they actually have weapon options and choices, unlike the Ork buggies that are set and have 0 weapon options. Your attempt to justify the melee profile of the Ork buggies is laughable. They are shooting platforms that have no place there.
Well, Smash Captain is a meme for a reason. Two wrongs don't make a right.
Yes and popping out and killing a character (maybe 2 with really bad positioning and no points spent on transports/bodyguard units) is so far away from coming in and soloing a knight it's unreal yet we have a 15 page thread proclaiming this is an end times level event for 40k
Pretty sure the jackals will be 5+ save? The alphus has a 5+ and they're unlikely to be better than their equivalent.
I seriously don't get the point of moaning about how strong any given codex will be before it's released and some games have been played. Maybe these options will work ok together and they'll become a top tier army. maybe they'll be a bit underwhelming. Can't really say until tournaments have happened and games have been played
JNAProductions wrote: Screen better. Guard of all people should not have issues with that.
This is not a valid defense. Here - I drew a janky picture for you.
Red circle is KM. Blue circles are screen. Green line is the 3" distance between screen and KM. Purple circle is the effective range of KM guns. Yellow circle is the HQ and the black line it's tremendously effective aura or command range.
Spoiler:
Asmodios wrote: Wow the doom and gloom over this is funny. It looks to me like a character that can really punish bad positioning (is that a bad thing?) and might force some armies like guard to spend points on transports or a bodyguard for characters (again is this bad?). I mean how is this any worse then a smash captain dropping in and crushing a knight?
A knight is expected to be targetable. Now, I agree forcing people to take body guards is great. Marines and heretics don't really have those though. Also IG can command from a transport. Marines cannot.
Well, Smash Captain is a meme for a reason. Two wrongs don't make a right.
Yes and popping out and killing a character (maybe 2 with really bad positioning and no points spent on transports/bodyguard units) is so far away from coming in and soloing a knight it's unreal yet we have a 15 page thread proclaiming this is an end times level event for 40k
I'm not claiming end times, but I really think you're overselling bad positioning.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
DoomMouse wrote: Pretty sure the jackals will be 5+ save? The alphus has a 5+ and they're unlikely to be better than their equivalent.
I think people are expecting them to be Rusted Claw, which is +1 save vs AP0/-1.
Smash captain still has to make his charge roll. He can't jump over screens the same way bullets can. He costs twice as much. The BA version only really works for one of them. The army struggles for CP. They eat up an entire detachment on their own. They are a lone good unit in an entire army of terrible units. They don't one round a knight. I could keep going.
This guy pops up, shoots twice and kills whatever characters he wants to. Then you get to do it two more times. Unless you are playing a static castle, screening out 12" (or 3" which is basically impossible) thru turn 3 will cause some major movement issues and really restrict what you can do (basically prevents engaging in melee with any characters you want to live).
A lot of people trying to down play the doom and gloom are the same ones saying shining spears weren't too bad, that reapers were fine or that marines were not going to be a bottom codex.
From the leaks we are seeing this dex is OP as feth (yanarri level). Great strats, lots of cp, crazy deployment options, best snipers in the game, great psychic powers, ability to ally in some of the best shooting in the game, great CQC, broken combos, they have it all. It's like some of the best players in the world were saying this is going to be a good dex and it is.
I'm only bothered because it doesn't bode well for GW lowering the power level on some of the outlier units/armies if this is what they think balanced is. I find it hard to fall into the "GW is trying to sell new models" because the rules for the new ork stuff and the primaris weren't really good so I just don't get it. Maybe this means the yanarri soup power level is where GW want their game and they just undertuned everything else until they got all the dexes out and now that everyone has all their toys their really start ramping things up in earnest (which is terrible because this edition is already too killy for my liking.)
JNAProductions wrote: Screen better. Guard of all people should not have issues with that.
This is not a valid defense. Here - I drew a janky picture for you.
Red circle is KM. Blue circles are screen. Green line is the 3" distance between screen and KM. Purple circle is the effective range of KM guns. Yellow circle is the HQ and the black line it's tremendously effective aura or command range.
[spoiler][spoiler]
Asmodios wrote: Wow the doom and gloom over this is funny. It looks to me like a character that can really punish bad positioning (is that a bad thing?) and might force some armies like guard to spend points on transports or a bodyguard for characters (again is this bad?). I mean how is this any worse then a smash captain dropping in and crushing a knight?
A knight is expected to be targetable. Now, I agree forcing people to take body guards is great. Marines and heretics don't really have those though. Also IG can command from a transport. Marines cannot.
Well, Smash Captain is a meme for a reason. Two wrongs don't make a right.
Yes and popping out and killing a character (maybe 2 with really bad positioning and no points spent on transports/bodyguard units) is so far away from coming in and soloing a knight it's unreal yet we have a 15 page thread proclaiming this is an end times level event for 40k
I'm not claiming end times, but I really think you're overselling bad positioning.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
DoomMouse wrote: Pretty sure the jackals will be 5+ save? The alphus has a 5+ and they're unlikely to be better than their equivalent.
I think people are expecting them to be Rusted Claw, which is +1 save vs AP0/-1.
Not everyone has a bodyguard but is there a single codex that doesn't have a transport you can pop most characters into? I mean my primary army is guard and im working on SM and Necrons currently and im not overly concerned. I just think its a bit soon for 15 page threads claiming this is going to be broken (kinda like the 12 basalisk list threads after the rule of 3).
Not everyone has a bodyguard but is there a single codex that doesn't have a transport you can pop most characters into?
Well the GK ones need a storm raven or a land raider, that is a lot of points.
Smash captain still has to make his charge roll. He can't jump over screens the same way bullets can. He costs twice as much. The BA version only really works for one of them. The army struggles for CP. They eat up an entire detachment on their own. They are a lone good unit in an entire army of terrible units. They don't one round a knight. I could keep going.
Also with vect in two armies, casting wings is going to be much harder.
bananathug wrote: Smash captain still has to make his charge roll. He can't jump over screens the same way bullets can. He costs twice as much. The BA version only really works for one of them. The army struggles for CP. They eat up an entire detachment on their own. They are a lone good unit in an entire army of terrible units. They don't one round a knight. I could keep going.
This guy pops up, shoots twice and kills whatever characters he wants to. Then you get to do it two more times. Unless you are playing a static castle, screening out 12" (or 3" which is basically impossible) thru turn 3 will cause some major movement issues and really restrict what you can do (basically prevents engaging in melee with any characters you want to live).
A lot of people trying to down play the doom and gloom are the same ones saying shining spears weren't too bad, that reapers were fine or that marines were not going to be a bottom codex.
From the leaks we are seeing this dex is OP as feth (yanarri level). Great strats, lots of cp, crazy deployment options, best snipers in the game, great psychic powers, ability to ally in some of the best shooting in the game, great CQC, broken combos, they have it all. It's like some of the best players in the world were saying this is going to be a good dex and it is.
I'm only bothered because it doesn't bode well for GW lowering the power level on some of the outlier units/armies if this is what they think balanced is. I find it hard to fall into the "GW is trying to sell new models" because the rules for the new ork stuff and the primaris weren't really good so I just don't get it. Maybe this means the yanarri soup power level is where GW want their game and they just undertuned everything else until they got all the dexes out and now that everyone has all their toys their really start ramping things up in earnest (which is terrible because this edition is already too killy for my liking.)
yeah I mean if you stand three characters next to each other while playing against this guy with no bodyguard unit or putting them into a transport your gonna have a bad time.... i think thats kind of a good thing
yeah I mean if you stand three characters next to each other while playing against this guy with no bodyguard unit or putting them into a transport your gonna have a bad time.... i think thats kind of a good thing
Again how many Bodyguard units exist that are actually worth it.
Chaos has over the whole faction 1 bodyguard unit.
1, a faction that atm is only kept relevant thanks to charachters.
Imperium has more, some ogryns, some primaris, etc. But the pts there are generally not worth it.
Tau won't really mind him since shielddrones exist.
Tyranids have only for hivetyrants bodyguard.
Also most charachters don't work within a Tank.
And even IG has to spend cp to work inside of a Tank.
Asmodios wrote: yeah I mean if you stand three characters next to each other while playing against this guy with no bodyguard unit or putting them into a transport your gonna have a bad time.... i think thats kind of a good thing
People are deeply concerned about GSC invalidating the fish barrel deployment scheme given that GSC has been given a fish barrel shooting specialist.
yeah I mean if you stand three characters next to each other while playing against this guy with no bodyguard unit or putting them into a transport your gonna have a bad time.... i think thats kind of a good thing
Again how many Bodyguard units exist that are actually worth it.
Chaos has over the whole faction 1 bodyguard unit.
1, a faction that atm is only kept relevant thanks to charachters.
Imperium has more, some ogryns, some primaris, etc. But the pts there are generally not worth it.
Tau won't really mind him since shielddrones exist.
Tyranids have only for hivetyrants bodyguard.
Also most charachters don't work within a Tank.
And even IG has to spend cp to work outside of a Tank.
Yeah, I think the nids will mostly be relying on the fact that a hive tyrant Takes like 5 damage from this dude if he spends his whole 5cp wad on trying to shoot them.
Eldar, all marines, admech, and Tau also all have strats that blow this dude to smithereens when he deep strikes in, after he spends his CP. So your opponent has a choice to either spend another 3 (if he's the right sibfaction) or let him die.
I wonder what other units damage output is like for 8cp?
Asmodios wrote: yeah I mean if you stand three characters next to each other while playing against this guy with no bodyguard unit or putting them into a transport your gonna have a bad time.... i think thats kind of a good thing
People are deeply concerned about GSC invalidating the fish barrel deployment scheme given that GSC has been given a fish barrel shooting specialist.
True aswell, bubbles like abbadon and the endless conga line of cultists were and still are annoying.
My question however is how is a trade between a daemonprince/sorcerer / Tau commander without drones fair compared to a 60ppm fire and forget Modell that even can nearly get his points back by wiping chaff units?
yeah I mean if you stand three characters next to each other while playing against this guy with no bodyguard unit or putting them into a transport your gonna have a bad time.... i think thats kind of a good thing
Again how many Bodyguard units exist that are actually worth it.
Chaos has over the whole faction 1 bodyguard unit.
1, a faction that atm is only kept relevant thanks to charachters.
Imperium has more, some ogryns, some primaris, etc. But the pts there are generally not worth it.
Tau won't really mind him since shielddrones exist.
Tyranids have only for hivetyrants bodyguard.
Also most charachters don't work within a Tank.
And even IG has to spend cp to work inside of a Tank.
At least Orks have Grot shields, its not like they can Agent of Ve....oh. My. God.
Yeah, I think the nids will mostly be relying on the fact that a hive tyrant Takes like 5 damage from this dude if he spends his whole 5cp wad on trying to shoot them.
Eldar, all marines, admech, and Tau also all have strats that blow this dude to smithereens when he deep strikes in, after he spends his CP. So your opponent has a choice to either spend another 3 (if he's the right sibfaction) or let him die.
I wonder what other units damage output is like for 8cp?
You won't find a unit for 60pts that does equal ammount of damage with or without cp.
Close comes smashcaptain as said before but even he is tripple digit and we all know how well he is liked.
Automatically Appended Next Post: On the Bright side, your commisars are now unemployed as are my enforcers, since this dude can blam 3X as many cowards as any of them.
Don't panic Imperium kids, your updated assassins are coming to fix everything in March. Probably won't even take up a slot in your detachment. Mama GW would never let you languish too long without fresh soup.
Not Online!!! wrote: And how exactly is abbadon the harmless supposed to scream at his men to increase their accuracy, don't dare to run away and tie their fething shoes?
Wait, I wasn't following entirely, are you suggesting, honestly, that the Kelermorph is going to take out Abaddon? Just clarifying before I laugh hysterically.
Not Online!!! wrote: And how exactly is abbadon the harmless supposed to scream at his men to increase their accuracy, don't dare to run away and tie their fething shoes?
Wait, I wasn't following entirely, are you suggesting, honestly, that the Kelermorph is going to take out Abaddon? Just clarifying before I laugh hysterically.
Not really, abbadon is relatively save as in his armor still is 3 plus.
Other charachters which auras are lynchpin are however not as lucky.
Then again everything bad that happens to a abbadon model in the game is a good thing in my book since i hate him.
yeah I mean if you stand three characters next to each other while playing against this guy with no bodyguard unit or putting them into a transport your gonna have a bad time.... i think thats kind of a good thing
Again how many Bodyguard units exist that are actually worth it.
Chaos has over the whole faction 1 bodyguard unit.
1, a faction that atm is only kept relevant thanks to charachters.
Imperium has more, some ogryns, some primaris, etc. But the pts there are generally not worth it.
Tau won't really mind him since shielddrones exist.
Tyranids have only for hivetyrants bodyguard.
Also most charachters don't work within a Tank.
And even IG has to spend cp to work inside of a Tank.
So yeah some armies have bodyguards
All have transports
Many have strategems that even allow you to shoot this guy coming in
all require you to use more brain power then "ill just ball up all my special characters and shoot the bad guys to death"
once again im really failing to see what all this crying is about. you are going to be required to think about placement against gsc armies...... o the horror
yeah I mean if you stand three characters next to each other while playing against this guy with no bodyguard unit or putting them into a transport your gonna have a bad time.... i think thats kind of a good thing
Again how many Bodyguard units exist that are actually worth it.
Chaos has over the whole faction 1 bodyguard unit.
1, a faction that atm is only kept relevant thanks to charachters.
Imperium has more, some ogryns, some primaris, etc. But the pts there are generally not worth it.
Tau won't really mind him since shielddrones exist.
Tyranids have only for hivetyrants bodyguard.
Also most charachters don't work within a Tank.
And even IG has to spend cp to work inside of a Tank.
So yeah some armies have bodyguards
All have transports
Many have strategems that even allow you to shoot this guy coming in
all require you to use more brain power then "ill just ball up all my special characters and shoot the bad guys to death"
once again im really failing to see what all this crying is about. you are going to be required to think about placement against gsc armies...... o the horror
Are we ignoring that GSC have a better vect stratagem?
yeah I mean if you stand three characters next to each other while playing against this guy with no bodyguard unit or putting them into a transport your gonna have a bad time.... i think thats kind of a good thing
Again how many Bodyguard units exist that are actually worth it.
Chaos has over the whole faction 1 bodyguard unit.
1, a faction that atm is only kept relevant thanks to charachters.
Imperium has more, some ogryns, some primaris, etc. But the pts there are generally not worth it.
Tau won't really mind him since shielddrones exist.
Tyranids have only for hivetyrants bodyguard.
Also most charachters don't work within a Tank.
And even IG has to spend cp to work inside of a Tank.
So yeah some armies have bodyguards
All have transports
Many have strategems that even allow you to shoot this guy coming in
all require you to use more brain power then "ill just ball up all my special characters and shoot the bad guys to death"
once again im really failing to see what all this crying is about. you are going to be required to think about placement against gsc armies...... o the horror
Are we ignoring that GSC have a better vect stratagem?
crap i totally forgot that vect blows up the transport you put your guy in, and kills the bodyguard unit (if you have one), and instantly makes all-terrain/ screen units melt away and forces you to ball up all your characters so he can kill multiple
They really need to up its cost again i forgot how versatile it is
A 60 point unit encouraging you not only to bring a transport, but to put your characters inside and make them utterly useless in the process sounds like a great deal to me.
I don’t understand why people are saying gsc units can’t be good compared to space marines/eldar/necrons etc. The cult is a hive mind that, by the time of ascension, spans an entire planet and has done for generations, with more plans and back-up plans than batman with prep time. Plenty of time and resources to gene-mod and train a guy up to kelermorph standard. We don’t even know if genestealer hybrids age normally, dude could be way older than the average human lifespan for all we know.
Asmodios 770479 10330502 wrote:
crap i totally forgot that vect blows up the transport you put your guy in, and kills the bodyguard unit (if you have one), and instantly makes all-terrain/ screen units melt away and forces you to ball up all your characters so he can kill multiple
They really need to up its cost again i forgot how versatile it is
Well in case of GKHQs they live and die on using heed the prognosticators. If that gets stoped they are in big trouble. And terrain doesn't help as much as people think when your army is not runing 100+models. I mean you can of course put everything in a corner building, but then the GSC are just going to blip the living hell of objectives, and GK termintors and strikes don't have the speed to reach objectives on foot. And with deep strike they arrive too late.
I'll be very disappointed if GSC doesn't end up being the most powerful army in the universe. I don't think there has been a thread like this trying to sell a single army. Even I am more or less sold on the fact that I should be collecting this army by now.
C4790M wrote: I don’t understand why people are saying gsc units can’t be good compared to space marines/eldar/necrons etc. The cult is a hive mind that, by the time of ascension, spans an entire planet and has done for generations, with more plans and back-up plans than batman with prep time. Plenty of time and resources to gene-mod and train a guy up to kelermorph standard. We don’t even know if genestealer hybrids age normally, dude could be way older than the average human lifespan for all we know.
the cult is a hive mind of the stuff that lives on the planet. So unless they droped on to a ad mecha research facility making bombs and drugs should be the hight of their tech achivments. But then again they can mass produce stub guns that rival the relics of the empire.
Asmodios 770479 10330502 wrote:
crap i totally forgot that vect blows up the transport you put your guy in, and kills the bodyguard unit (if you have one), and instantly makes all-terrain/ screen units melt away and forces you to ball up all your characters so he can kill multiple
They really need to up its cost again i forgot how versatile it is
Well in case of GKHQs they live and die on using heed the prognosticators. If that gets stoped they are in big trouble. And terrain doesn't help as much as people think when your army is not runing 100+models. I mean you can of course put everything in a corner building, but then the GSC are just going to blip the living hell of objectives, and GK termintors and strikes don't have the speed to reach objectives on foot. And with deep strike they arrive too late.
GK are super bad
GK will continue to be super bad
GK need to get an update
ever "omg look at how broken x" thread uses GK as a basis. GK is not going to beat GSCatm with essentially anything as they are worse then every army at everything. Can we at least use other armies as examples because saying x crushes GK really isn't saying much
But you can replace GK with marines and a non gulliman HQ and you would get the same things. Ancients with banners, librarians or Lts and Cpts got a lot worse with the dude added to the game.
And while I understand that this isn't much of a problem for most tournament players, as those people in general don't play marines, in non tournament games the guy is very NPE in the way he is costed and in the way he works.
He is in a way like a castellan, not in point costs or destructivness, but in the fact that he has to be hard countered. And the vect 2.0 is not just bad for GK. It is bad for BA or any other army that has to use stratagems to function.
Is it going to be a problem for orcs with their 200 models? Probably not, but I don't envy baby John if his friend picks up GSC and he plays marines. I get someone wanting to make stuff cool. Maybe the codex writer really likes GSC or tyranids. Nothing wrong with that, but when some books are made by faction entustiasts that add stuff to be "cool" to army books, the balance between factions becomes laughable. The amount of time spent to fine craft how GSC are suppose to work, no matter if they work well or not in the end, is incomperable to the work time put in to SW or BA.
Ah and one more thing about GK. GW said they are a real faction and good post CA. They know the game better then me, they test and work on it all day. Maybe people just don't know how to get the perfect army with GKs.
Eldarsif wrote: I'll be very disappointed if GSC doesn't end up being the most powerful army in the universe. I don't think there has been a thread like this trying to sell a single army. Even I am more or less sold on the fact that I should be collecting this army by now.
GSC has infiltrated dakka to convince the population that they instantly win every matchup. This causes GW to produce more GSC units and thus spreads their influence and power even more. Truly the day of ascension has come
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Karol wrote: But you can replace GK with marines and a non gulliman HQ and you would get the same things. Ancients with banners, librarians or Lts and Cpts got a lot worse with the dude added to the game.
And while I understand that this isn't much of a problem for most tournament players, as those people in general don't play marines, in non tournament games the guy is very NPE in the way he is costed and in the way he works.
He is in a way like a castellan, not in point costs or destructivness, but in the fact that he has to be hard countered. And the vect 2.0 is not just bad for GK. It is bad for BA or any other army that has to use stratagems to function.
Is it going to be a problem for orcs with their 200 models? Probably not, but I don't envy baby John if his friend picks up GSC and he plays marines. I get someone wanting to make stuff cool. Maybe the codex writer really likes GSC or tyranids. Nothing wrong with that, but when some books are made by faction entustiasts that add stuff to be "cool" to army books, the balance between factions becomes laughable. The amount of time spent to fine craft how GSC are suppose to work, no matter if they work well or not in the end, is incomperable to the work time put in to SW or BA.
Ah and one more thing about GK. GW said they are a real faction and good post CA. They know the game better then me, they test and work on it all day. Maybe people just don't know how to get the perfect army with GKs.
SM have transports, bodyguard units and strategems against DS. Not to mention if you dont ball up your characters this guy is essentially going to be a 60point +3 CP to kill a single dude. Its just people acting like there is 0 counterplay to this guys and already I'm seeing plenty. Also the codex is just dropping lets gather a little data before we break out the nerf hammer
Not Online!!! wrote: And how exactly is abbadon the harmless supposed to scream at his men to increase their accuracy, don't dare to run away and tie their fething shoes?
Wait, I wasn't following entirely, are you suggesting, honestly, that the Kelermorph is going to take out Abaddon? Just clarifying before I laugh hysterically.
I think I need to preface that I'm not against this codex or its design. I just see potential issues.
Abaddon is legit safe mostly because of damage reduction and terminator armor.
@Insectum7
I expected more from you on that. Being forced to place a marine HQ in a transport is not a solid solution, unless you intend to get it into combat.
Let's ponder it for a moment.
Turn 1 - I can't get out of the transport - the KM can show up turn 2 and there is no way to get back in once the shooting phase starts.
Turn 2 - Is this when I get out? It's still the same risk.
Turn 3 - Now? How long do I need to stay in and sacrifice the reason I bought my HQs?
What about Ahriman on a disk? He has no transport option.
I can screen with cultists. I'm also pretty sure GSC will be able to kill the cultist screens before turn 2.
I can tail my units, but then they're way less effective. Getting to use my bolters at 24" would not be a thing.
GSC has infiltrated dakka to convince the population that they instantly win every matchup. This causes GW to produce more GSC units and thus spreads their influence and power even more. Truly the day of ascension has come
The Four-Armed Emperor shall reign supreme and destroy all the unbelievers. None shall stand in the way, not even the God Emperor's chosen son, Cypher.
Daedalus81 wrote: What about Ahriman on a disk? He has no transport option.
True, but he (or his DP buddies) does have ways of targeting characters at pretty decent range given the TS legion trait (Doombolt or Bolt of Change at 24" range). Also, he doesn't have to be on a disc.
Daedalus81 wrote: What about Ahriman on a disk? He has no transport option.
True, but he (or his DP buddies) does have ways of targeting characters at pretty decent range given the TS legion trait (Doombolt or Bolt of Change at 24" range). Also, he doesn't have to be on a disc.
That's a lot of board control to give up against an army that can bring a ton of bodies.
But I'm having a very hard time taking this thread seriously. There are just so many ways to tuck characters out of striking range from deep striking 12" pistols. Screens, Transports, Terrain, Bodyguards, counter-DS fire, delayed deployment via reserves.
And this is after the "Those pistols can't be that strong!!" arguments when common criminal gangs can have Plasma Pistols with twice the strength.
This also seems to be an army that's severely lacking in the traditional heavy support options, no flyers from what I can tell, etc. It's an odd beast with a theme of asymmetrical warfare with some interesting tricks that nobody has fought yet (publicly). I'm really looking forward to seeing it in action, personally. If there are really strange imbalances, there's plenty of room to sort them out.
Eldarsif wrote: I'll be very disappointed if GSC doesn't end up being the most powerful army in the universe. I don't think there has been a thread like this trying to sell a single army. Even I am more or less sold on the fact that I should be collecting this army by now.
GSC has infiltrated dakka to convince the population that they instantly win every matchup. This causes GW to produce more GSC units and thus spreads their influence and power even more. Truly the day of ascension has come
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Karol wrote: But you can replace GK with marines and a non gulliman HQ and you would get the same things. Ancients with banners, librarians or Lts and Cpts got a lot worse with the dude added to the game.
And while I understand that this isn't much of a problem for most tournament players, as those people in general don't play marines, in non tournament games the guy is very NPE in the way he is costed and in the way he works.
He is in a way like a castellan, not in point costs or destructivness, but in the fact that he has to be hard countered. And the vect 2.0 is not just bad for GK. It is bad for BA or any other army that has to use stratagems to function.
Is it going to be a problem for orcs with their 200 models? Probably not, but I don't envy baby John if his friend picks up GSC and he plays marines. I get someone wanting to make stuff cool. Maybe the codex writer really likes GSC or tyranids. Nothing wrong with that, but when some books are made by faction entustiasts that add stuff to be "cool" to army books, the balance between factions becomes laughable. The amount of time spent to fine craft how GSC are suppose to work, no matter if they work well or not in the end, is incomperable to the work time put in to SW or BA.
Ah and one more thing about GK. GW said they are a real faction and good post CA. They know the game better then me, they test and work on it all day. Maybe people just don't know how to get the perfect army with GKs.
SM have transports, bodyguard units and strategems against DS. Not to mention if you dont ball up your characters this guy is essentially going to be a 60point +3 CP to kill a single dude. Its just people acting like there is 0 counterplay to this guys and already I'm seeing plenty. Also the codex is just dropping lets gather a little data before we break out the nerf hammer
Quick Question:
When was the last time you read literally any codex and saw the points for those bodyguard units? Genuinely curious.
But I'm having a very hard time taking this thread seriously. There are just so many ways to tuck characters out of striking range from deep striking 12" pistols. Screens, Transports, Terrain, Bodyguards, counter-DS fire, delayed deployment via reserves.
And this is after the "Those pistols can't be that strong!!" arguments when common criminal gangs can have Plasma Pistols with twice the strength.
This also seems to be an army that's severely lacking in the traditional heavy support options, no flyers from what I can tell, etc. It's an odd beast with a theme of asymmetrical warfare with some interesting tricks that nobody has fought yet (publicly). I'm really looking forward to seeing it in action, personally. If there are really strange imbalances, there's plenty of room to sort them out.
Yea, no problems with the strength of the pistols for me - other than possibly the points.
I'm sure I can find ways to adapt. Ahriman might be a baby sitter instead of leading the charge against GSC. I welcome new challenges.
As for the rest of the army itself - it does have Brood Brothers, so, as much as you want for tanks and stuff there. Aberrants are pretty dope. The drill seems potentially very scary, but I don't fully understand its rules yet.
Yea, no problems with the strength of the pistols for me - other than possibly the points.
I'm sure I can find ways to adapt. Ahriman might be a baby sitter instead of leading the charge against GSC. I welcome new challenges.
As for the rest of the army itself - it does have Brood Brothers, so, as much as you want for tanks and stuff there. Aberrants are pretty dope. The drill seems potentially very scary, but I don't fully understand its rules yet.
Sure, so for Brood Brothers is that a limited array of IG units, sans regimental bonuses? Like they can get a Leman Russ, but not a Leman Russ Commander? What's the story with that? I fell like I've read/heard a few different versions now.
Alternatively, you could just...give Ahriman his normal WL trait, and tank the pistols to the face with Glamour of Tzeentch up. Keller won't even come close to killing him.
the_scotsman wrote: Alternatively, you could just...give Ahriman his normal WL trait, and tank the pistols to the face with Glamour of Tzeentch up. Keller won't even come close to killing him.
Eh. I suppose. I'm not thrilled about being forced into a crappier WL choice. I'll see how it pans out before I do that anyway. Glamour not on a hard target also sucks.
I can cope, but i'm not totally fond of listbuilding becoming more of a phase despite my enjoyment of it.
I'm more scared of the rifle that causes perils...good night rubrics...
Sure, so for Brood Brothers is that a limited array of IG units, sans regimental bonuses? Like they can get a Leman Russ, but not a Leman Russ Commander? What's the story with that? I fell like I've read/heard a few different versions now.
I'm not sure either. Still a lot to unpack on this codex.
argonak wrote: Has anyone noticed that the jackal alphalus has a BS 2+ with a sniper rifle that puts the Space Marine one to shame?
S4, AP-2, D3.
And even the Sanctus's silenced sniper rifle is better, with:
S4, Ap-1, D3.
Clearly, the AdMech has been holding out on the imperium. The Adeptus Astartes should file a complaint.
Oh no...not again.
You should call it out as DD3 instead of D3 lest people get the wrong idea. That's also very similar to the profile of other sniper characters in the game so lets not treat it like it's amazing.
Alphus is 80 points.
Scout with sniper is 13. That's 6 sniper scouts.
We should spend more time comparing a character model with not only the rule of three, but the gsc rule that you can't have more than one of a character datasheet in a detachment that costs 80 pts, to a 15 pt troop model.
Imo the sniper alpha will be bad like most character snipers because there is far too high a chance of doing nothing in a turn and you wont kill anything when luck smiles on you anyway.
The Keller though should be spammed because at 60 points its cost effective versus Guardsmen nevermind anything else. Thats before you try chasing characters or buffing units.
Tyel wrote: Imo the sniper alpha will be bad like most character snipers because there is far too high a chance of doing nothing in a turn and you wont kill anything when luck smiles on you anyway.
The Keller though should be spammed because at 60 points its cost effective versus Guardsmen nevermind anything else. Thats before you try chasing characters or buffing units.
The sniper biker will be used for its buff more than direct damage. Its buff is really strong!
SHUPPET wrote: last guy just said it was 80 pts, now its 60 pts. Is there a link to the points cost that either of you are referencing?
Just what someone leaked in the News part of the forum. Sniper 80 points, Keller 60. They could be wrong but they got the Chapter Tactics and Vect right before Warhamner Community published their article.
SHUPPET wrote: last guy just said it was 80 pts, now its 60 pts. Is there a link to the points cost that either of you are referencing?
Just what someone leaked in the News part of the forum. Sniper 80 points, Keller 60. They could be wrong but they got the Chapter Tactics and Vect right before Warhamner Community published their article.
We also don't know if this includes wargear. The Autostubs could be an extra 10pts each for a total of 90. Or he might just be 60.
So the aflus cost be rised by the cost of the bike and weapon too. Though right now we don't know how much GW thinks a GSC bike cost. May as well be something silly like 10pts.
Karol wrote: So the aflus cost be rised by the cost of the bike and weapon too. Though right now we don't know how much GW thinks a GSC bike cost. May as well be something silly like 10pts.
I doubt it pays for the bike separately.
We generally only see that where a bike is optional, and as far as we are aware the only units in GSC that can take a bike MUST be on a bike.
So, just to be clear the situation we're looking at here...
We are assuming that your opponent deepstrikes keller at you. Meaning you have at least one turn to set up some kind of defense/plan on him coming in. We are also assuming that your opponent selects his subfaction in order to get access to the vect strat.
Then we're assuming he's happy to DS this character in, spend 5CP to bypass your screen and shoot twice, then spend another 3CP to stop you from just servo-skull/scryerskull/forewarnig, or that you don't have any early warning overrides/deathmarks/any other unit or ability that isn't a stratagem that reacts by just murdering his little face off.
Do you have anything you can put on your character that MUST stay alive to allow them to do that? Lets take the example of Ahriman with a disc that was talked about. Take his warlord trait, now he has a 3++. The turn before keller comes in, you know he'll be gunning for Ahriman (because, uh...well, this is awkward, but...he definitely can't kill a demon prince) so you put Glamour of Tzeentch on him and make him -1 to hit.
Keller does 3 damage. Having spent 5CP, MINIMUM. Just for the tiniest bit of "hmm, maybe I should have a brain instead of reacting with indignance and crying for nerfs when my opponent can take something in his army that requires me to change my gameplan the tiniest bit". If I'm playing against Eldar, and my opponent is using any kind of a competitive list, my characters out in the open are probably tanking 15 ranger sniper rifles and a reaper launcher every turn, I have to counterplay far more against that than this little one trick pony who hoovers up a third of my opponent's CP before falling flat on his face.
Let's say now I'm playing Grey Knights, the worst army ever. I take my HQs and I put them in Terminator Armor, and that right there makes Keller not able to kill them (4.3 damage on average, IIRC characters in terminator armor have 5 or 6 wounds). But what if I have a character I want him to kill even less? I'll put the ol' curiass of sacrifice on him. Now Keller doesn't even half-health them on average rolls. You know, this is also assuming that I lose my mind and don't just use Heed the Prognosticars on the guy I think Keller is going to target. But if my opponent has an extra 6CP to burn to block that and servo-skull then yeah, I guess I'd use the Curiass to be extra-safe.
Realistically, a competitively built GSC list is going to have a lot of CP, but not so much that me expending a relic or a warlord trait isn't worth my opponent blowing through 5+CP just to fail to kill something with this character.
This makes me wonder if the Vindicare assassin didn't exist and the GSC got access to him and maybe a shoot-twice strat, would people react the same way, as if he's always going to double tap your characters for 2D6 damage and he'll somehow invalidate the existence of all aura buffers ever?
You will always have to vary your style depending on who you fight. That GSC is going to have some new tricks does not invalidate everything you've done, but still requires you to put in a little work on how to play. Some of the concerns here do sound like each and every player is going to be playing GSC except for the one who is voicing their concerns. Almost as if the gunslinger is going to be faced in every single game from now on, even if the opponent happens to be playing Grey Knights.
I am just looking forward to seeing how this plays out. Whether GSC is going to be the meta-devourer people are claiming them to be or if they are just going to be an army that few care about after a few months. Either way, I am definitely going to build that Mad Max army.
the_scotsman wrote: So, just to be clear the situation we're looking at here...
We are assuming that your opponent deepstrikes keller at you. Meaning you have at least one turn to set up some kind of defense/plan on him coming in. We are also assuming that your opponent selects his subfaction in order to get access to the vect strat.
Then we're assuming he's happy to DS this character in, spend 5CP to bypass your screen and shoot twice, then spend another 3CP to stop you from just servo-skull/scryerskull/forewarnig, or that you don't have any early warning overrides/deathmarks/any other unit or ability that isn't a stratagem that reacts by just murdering his little face off.
Do you have anything you can put on your character that MUST stay alive to allow them to do that? Lets take the example of Ahriman with a disc that was talked about. Take his warlord trait, now he has a 3++. The turn before keller comes in, you know he'll be gunning for Ahriman (because, uh...well, this is awkward, but...he definitely can't kill a demon prince) so you put Glamour of Tzeentch on him and make him -1 to hit.
Keller does 3 damage. Having spent 5CP, MINIMUM. Just for the tiniest bit of "hmm, maybe I should have a brain instead of reacting with indignance and crying for nerfs when my opponent can take something in his army that requires me to change my gameplan the tiniest bit". If I'm playing against Eldar, and my opponent is using any kind of a competitive list, my characters out in the open are probably tanking 15 ranger sniper rifles and a reaper launcher every turn, I have to counterplay far more against that than this little one trick pony who hoovers up a third of my opponent's CP before falling flat on his face.
Let's say now I'm playing Grey Knights, the worst army ever. I take my HQs and I put them in Terminator Armor, and that right there makes Keller not able to kill them (4.3 damage on average, IIRC characters in terminator armor have 5 or 6 wounds). But what if I have a character I want him to kill even less? I'll put the ol' curiass of sacrifice on him. Now Keller doesn't even half-health them on average rolls. You know, this is also assuming that I lose my mind and don't just use Heed the Prognosticars on the guy I think Keller is going to target. But if my opponent has an extra 6CP to burn to block that and servo-skull then yeah, I guess I'd use the Curiass to be extra-safe.
Realistically, a competitively built GSC list is going to have a lot of CP, but not so much that me expending a relic or a warlord trait isn't worth my opponent blowing through 5+CP just to fail to kill something with this character.
This makes me wonder if the Vindicare assassin didn't exist and the GSC got access to him and maybe a shoot-twice strat, would people react the same way, as if he's always going to double tap your characters for 2D6 damage and he'll somehow invalidate the existence of all aura buffers ever?
You're arguing in bad faith here.
- Chaos lacks any sort of deepstrike interruption.
- KM does 3 damage, but I'm forced to make Ahriman the WL and lose out on every other WL trait - also 3 getting through means 2 actually go through often, which is 4 damage and that means any perils will immediately explode him
- I have to sacrifice Glamour, which is normally better served on a vehicle
- I'm not crying for nerfs
- I think the change in dynamics is good for the game
- He doesn't need to spend 5CP to off most things
- Vindicare requires its own detachment
- Vindicares do not automatically do D6 damage. 1 * .833 * .666 * .833 * 2 = 0.92 damage; 1 out of every 6 wounds will do 1.6 damage.
- So, 0.9 to 1.6 damage for 80 points or 3 damage and 2 CP for 60 points.
- People absolutely would spam them if they had a double shot strat and if they didn't require 3 auxiliaries to take 3.
Oh no, my opponent has countered with Buzzword! What shall I do - will I be accused of Logical Fallacy next? How about Straw Man? the buzzword, it burns, I'm melting, oh what a world, what a world...
I kid.
My overall point here is not that you, with your chaos army that is specifically Thousand Sons is always going to have access to every counter-tactic (putting psychic powers on your character, using a deep strike interrupt ability, putting relics or warlord traits on your character to keep them alive, having your character duck into a transport to survive, etc) I am merely pointing out that a huge plethora of those counter-strategies DO EXIST.
The only reason i bring up Ahriman at all is that you mentioned him as if he had no options to deal with a kellermorph assassination attempt. Sure, if you take the WL trait on him and give him -1 to hit with glamour you're not using your resources 100% optimally. You're using them to counter a specific move your opponent is making that is burning an extremely significant chunk of their CP to even attempt.
The reason I don't think Keller is going to really smash the established meta is because when you're using your brain, in most common TAC list situations I can counter him by spending fewer resources than he costs, without altering my list to deal with the possibility of him showing up.
That's different from what it takes to counter a smash captain, or a raven castellan, or Ynnari with doom, or any of the current fixtures of the competitive meta. I can't deal with a Raven Castellan just by allocating my WL trait, Relics, Psychic powers and/or CPs differently and keeping my list the same. If I want to be successful against that, I need to change my list to be ready for it, and THAT'S what makes it a meta-changer. If Keller shows up and gets a 2x or 3x points trade without having to spend 5+CP, it's my fault that he got away with that. If I force him to spend 8CP on getting close enough to bypass my screen then Vecting my interrupt stratagem, and then he successfully makes a 2x points trade, I'll take that. My opponent probably spent at least a third of their CP on that.
I can do far more to make Keller less effective or entirely unsuccessful than I can to make any of the common "deep strike and spend a bunch of CP" or "Gunline up and spend a bunch of CP" shooting units currently kicking around the meta. People are just losing their minds over him because he's arguably the first character assassin since the deep strike charge nerf that doesn't have absolutely astronomical odds against actually returning his points in a reliable manner.
Side note on your last point: You don't require 3 auxiliaries to take 3 assassins. You can take three in a vanguard detachment using the "Execution force" rules. People don't not take assassins because they are awkward to soup in, they don't take them because they are far too simple to "solve" for an opponent to ever be worthwhile investments.
SHUPPET wrote: quoting for emphasis, is there something ive missed here?
Yes, the unconfirmed rumor (and color me surprised this wasn't in the thread, it really should have been mentioned long ago) is that all the GSC characters have a 0-1 detachment limit.
the_scotsman wrote: Oh no, my opponent has countered with Buzzword! What shall I do - will I be accused of Logical Fallacy next? How about Straw Man? the buzzword, it burns, I'm melting, oh what a world, what a world...
I kid.
My overall point here is not that you, with your chaos army that is specifically Thousand Sons is always going to have access to every counter-tactic (putting psychic powers on your character, using a deep strike interrupt ability, putting relics or warlord traits on your character to keep them alive, having your character duck into a transport to survive, etc) I am merely pointing out that a huge plethora of those counter-strategies DO EXIST.
The only reason i bring up Ahriman at all is that you mentioned him as if he had no options to deal with a kellermorph assassination attempt. Sure, if you take the WL trait on him and give him -1 to hit with glamour you're not using your resources 100% optimally. You're using them to counter a specific move your opponent is making that is burning an extremely significant chunk of their CP to even attempt.
The reason I don't think Keller is going to really smash the established meta is because when you're using your brain, in most common TAC list situations I can counter him by spending fewer resources than he costs, without altering my list to deal with the possibility of him showing up.
That's different from what it takes to counter a smash captain, or a raven castellan, or Ynnari with doom, or any of the current fixtures of the competitive meta. I can't deal with a Raven Castellan just by allocating my WL trait, Relics, Psychic powers and/or CPs differently and keeping my list the same. If I want to be successful against that, I need to change my list to be ready for it, and THAT'S what makes it a meta-changer. If Keller shows up and gets a 2x or 3x points trade without having to spend 5+CP, it's my fault that he got away with that. If I force him to spend 8CP on getting close enough to bypass my screen then Vecting my interrupt stratagem, and then he successfully makes a 2x points trade, I'll take that. My opponent probably spent at least a third of their CP on that.
I can do far more to make Keller less effective or entirely unsuccessful than I can to make any of the common "deep strike and spend a bunch of CP" or "Gunline up and spend a bunch of CP" shooting units currently kicking around the meta. People are just losing their minds over him because he's arguably the first character assassin since the deep strike charge nerf that doesn't have absolutely astronomical odds against actually returning his points in a reliable manner.
Side note on your last point: You don't require 3 auxiliaries to take 3 assassins. You can take three in a vanguard detachment using the "Execution force" rules. People don't not take assassins because they are awkward to soup in, they don't take them because they are far too simple to "solve" for an opponent to ever be worthwhile investments.
Alright, I concede to these points, but I'm not terribly confident about this part yet:
I can counter him by spending fewer resources than he costs
If the 1 per detachment rule is in effect I think it will be fairly blunted anyway.
Daedalus81 wrote: - Chaos lacks any sort of deepstrike interruption.
Yes, but this has been the case through every codex that came out and enhanced deep strike for various factions. Then GW gutted deep strike and this sucked less.
Daedalus81 wrote: - KM does 3 damage, but I'm forced to make Ahriman the WL and lose out on every other WL trait - also 3 getting through means 2 actually go through often, which is 4 damage and that means any perils will immediately explode him
The comedy here is that it's not the Kelermorph you need to worry about, it's the Sanctus, and still, Ahriman has a decent chance of surviving. Or you lead with your DPs and Ahriman hides and buffs, which is generally his preferred role anyways. Leading the charge with Ahriman is...strange.
- But he does have to get within 12", I guess I just play against GSC a lot and am used to creating a deep strike bubble. Which can be done without conga lines of cultists. Tactical placement of vehicles, terrain, small units, any number of things can easily force him to drop outside of 12" from something you care about.
- For now, I think it's very likely Assassins will exist outside of the detachment structure.
I think this character and the Sanctus are interesting, they will definitely require some planning and forethought to prepare for them, but they are simply not the table flipping force some people think they will be.
Daedalus81 wrote: Poor choice of words. I have need of several spells to push the front (Spawn / Defiler). The rerolls don't hurt, either.
Differences of implementation, to each his own, also, I didn't call it bad, just...strange. Anyhow, it's decidedly off-topic for the thread. I tend to use DPs for that purpose.
If he's at 60 points he doesn't need to kill Ahriman - or a jetbike seer every turn. He can happily shoot infantry, and if he gets into position to gun down a character even better.
Also feel 0-1 per detachment isn't really an issue when you can easily make cheap detachments and he's cheap himself. (Well, I say cheap, Magos look like they are considerably overpriced if its only 1 power for 80 points.)
I feel the whole burn CP to kill a character isn't very good. He has - pre any buffs - a 40% chance to kill a jetbike seer. Which might be tempting given the points differentials, but isn't reliable. The issue is you can stick him in a blob of other infantry and just shoot away. 2-3 Marines might not seem like a great coup - but at 60 points its not bad. As people were saying previously, there are loads of elite choices that are efficient targets if he can just pop up in 12" away with some bodyguards and shoot.
Tyel wrote: If he's at 60 points he doesn't need to kill Ahriman - or a jetbike seer every turn. He can happily shoot infantry, and if he gets into position to gun down a character even better.
Is there some assumption that he's going to be running around with a giant squad protecting him from getting owned? I think this might be a *touch* unrealistic. Then there's the assumption that he'll be able to run around for multiple turns (within 12" of your front line mind you) killing units with impunity. Perhaps we could keep this discussion in the realm of semi-reality?
Tyel wrote: I feel the whole burn CP to kill a character isn't very good. He has - pre any buffs - a 40% chance to kill a jetbike seer.
- As does the Sanctus, from 36" range.
Tyel wrote: The issue is you can stick him in a blob of other infantry and just shoot away.
- What's this GSC squad that's going to allow him to safely skate around within 12" but resilient enough that they don't die to a stiff wind?
I guess in some kind of Escher-esque terrain setup this might happen, but I feel like that would be difficult to get on the table and would lead to a lot of wobbly model syndrome.
TwinPoleTheory wrote: I guess in some kind of Escher-esque terrain setup this might happen, but I feel like that would be difficult to get on the table and would lead to a lot of wobbly model syndrome.
I don't think the Sanctus does have a 40% chance to kill a jetseer - could you lay out why you think he does?
But yeah. I don't think a few units of neophytes are a great expense. I don't know if Neophytes have changed, but if they are still 5 points a model you can easily provide a unit of 20 for 1 or 3 Kellers to hide behind. 100 points isn't exactly breaking the bank. Sure they die to a stiff breeze - but this is an army that also has considerable threat dispersal. Purestraints, Abberants, even potentially just Acolytes and Metamorphs (not sure on any points changes there). The Bikers might also be a concern.
This isn't "omg its overpowered". I'm probably going to put together a GSC army *looks to models that have sat unpainted for the best part of 2 years* - so I hope they can be meta relevant.
But I don't see why I should say something that will be good isn't going to be. Much like the Ork Codex.
Why are people ITT bringing up transports as a counter to the kelermorph?
If your HQ is in a transport his rules aren't on the table and he functionally doesn't exist. That is still a denial in the GSCs favor. He's controlling how you use your units.
BlaxicanX wrote: Why are people ITT bringing up transports as a counter to the kelermorph?
If your HQ is in a transport his rules aren't on the table and he functionally doesn't exist. That is still a denial in the GSCs favor. He's controlling how you use your units.
In other news, if you don't put models on the table, you are protected from the Kelemorph.
If your HQ is in a transport his rules aren't on the table and he functionally doesn't exist. That is still a denial in the GSCs favor. He's controlling how you use your units.
If your opponent has a bunch of deep strike do you protect your backfield?
If your opponent has a bunch of Rangers do you put your fragile HQ out in the open?
If your opponent has fast cc units do you deploy your non-fly tanks out in front?
If your opponent has lots of Smite, do you maneuver chaff in the way?
Because at worse the dude is very optimised as far as points costs goes. Even if he is 0-1 per army, even if he pays 10pts per gun, he is still an auto include. Sometimes units are so good or so bad, that it does not require months of testing, I think, to see that they are good.
But then again GW thought that dark reaper in Inari were balanced, so who the hell knows.
BlaxicanX wrote: Why are people ITT bringing up transports as a counter to the kelermorph?
If your HQ is in a transport his rules aren't on the table and he functionally doesn't exist. That is still a denial in the GSCs favor. He's controlling how you use your units.
And if their unit is in deepstrike, he isn't on the table, and his rules functionally don't exist. If he comes down without a good target in sight, he gets blown off the field and wasted. This logic goes both ways.
Galas wrote: Why people is so reluctant to recognise when a unit is OP?
Hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm that's a VERY difficult question. I can't give you a definite answer, because you've really stumbled across a true mystery here, but I can think a couple of possible reasons. Number one being, the dex isn't even released yet, nobody has played with him, and we don't even firmly know this guy's cost yet. Another one being that pretty much everything this guy can do is easily countered by not playing like a mindless muppet.
These declarations of things being OP before the dex is even released is just bottom level dakka posting. Let's wait till people can actually see the rules and play the model before deciding that people are in denial about something you seem so confident of.
In 6 months after release, if this unit has no real impact on the competitive scene, will you come back to this post and admit you were wrong, if you were?
And if their unit is in deepstrike, he isn't on the table, and his rules functionally don't exist. If he comes down without a good target in sight, he gets blown off the field and wasted. This logic goes both ways.
It doesn't, because it's a false equivalence. The job of the kelermorph is to suppress characters. If you keep your character off the board out of fear of the kelermorph then it doesn't even need to be on the table to have performed its function.
What character are you aware of that can do what you paid the points for it to do, while hiding in a transport for the first three turns of the game?
Insectum7 wrote: If your opponent has a bunch of deep strike do you protect your backfield?
If your opponent has a bunch of Rangers do you put your fragile HQ out in the open?
If your opponent has fast cc units do you deploy your non-fly tanks out in front?
If your opponent has lots of Smite, do you maneuver chaff in the way?
"Stop controlling me!!"
And notice that in all of those scenarios, "dude just don't play that unit lol" is not considered a valid counter. If your only option for keeping your HQ alive from smite or snipers is to literally remove it from the board, then you've done exactly what your opponent wanted you to do by functionally just not having that unit on the board.
And if their unit is in deepstrike, he isn't on the table, and his rules functionally don't exist. If he comes down without a good target in sight, he gets blown off the field and wasted. This logic goes both ways.
It doesn't, because it's a false equivalence. The job of the kelermorph is to suppress characters. If you keep your character off the board out of fear of the kelermorph then it doesn't even need to be on the table to have performed its function.
What character are you aware of that can do what you paid the points for it to do, while hiding in a transport for the first three turns of the game?
You are spending points to do that role with Kelermorph, you're not freely suppressing a unit of your opponents. On top of that, you have a bunch of other ways to deal with it that lets your character keep playing.
Calling things broken this early, is the mark and sign of a bottom tier player. This has held true every single time I've said it. This is not a unit that locks down any meta at all, hell the majority of armies in the game are unphased.
60 points to force an aura character to be off the board for 3 turns is 60 points optimally spent. If the kelermorph does nothing else all game but that then its already made its points back.
I don't know why you keep whining at me about whether or not it's broken. I didn't say its broken, I said hiding your characters from it by putting them in a transport is not a valid counter, and I'm right.
Pretty sure the whining is the people saying it is, not the person saying "maybe we should wait and see till the dex drops before making such strong declarations", but lmao you do you pal
Again, even if the kelermorph comes down and just finds chaff units, if he wipes a imp squad (which he can) he allready made back 2/3rds of his investment, if the guns cost nothing.
If he finds targets such as Firewarriors, space marines, etc, then he easily begins to make a netgain.
Edit: not to mention that he will probably each turn generate his aura if chaff is around. _______________________________________
and that is just the cherry on top.
You in essence forced an aura charchter out of the game for 3 turns, except he is a terminator variant.
I am going to get the Kill team later on and going to see for myself if there is additional info. Then I will buy the codex next week and see if the world is truly ending and the Kelpermorph will enslave us all.
However, Shuppet is right. Without context all this data is meaningless. People have decried units before release, claiming the end is nigh, only for that unit to be much less than people expected.
In short, we at best have a hypothesis: The Kelermorph is probably OP and will destroy us all. Now, when the codex comes out and we can run a few tests, we will be able to establish a theory, that the Kelermorph is OP and will destroy us all.
I don't know why the discussion is just around the Kellermorph. He looks scary, sure, but he is only one piece of the puzzle.
The hypothesis I think is actually something closer to;
'The announced GSC traits, unit costs, stats and stratagems indicate that GSC will undoubtedly be top tier on release. They have objectively better units than other factions equivalents and can ally with the already hyper efficient Guard. On top of this they have access to the most powerful stratagem in the game in A Plan Generations in the Making. I'm scared. Hold me.'
We'll see if this pans out in reality but considering multiple top players have already stated that GSC are "incredibly strong and will impact the meta" as well as the fact that they were doing well as an index army, I think it's a safe bet.
I don't know why the discussion is just around the Kellermorph. He looks scary, sure, but he is only one piece of the puzzle.
Because a good portion of this discussion has revolved around the Gunslinger as it started with the reveal of his stats. There is a reason why Cypher has dominated so much of the discussion. I mean, he has been the metric to which this entire discussion has been relying upon.
What character are you aware of that can do what you paid the points for it to do, while hiding in a transport for the first three turns of the game?
I'd just put mine behind a transport/tank out of potential LOS and keeping the aura active. Or start him in a transport for first turn and then disembark. I also have Company Veterans that can bodyguard. I could also take a relic for a 2+ save on him if I felt the need.
I honestly think Cypher would play really well, and thematically, with these rules and weapons. It's a shame that he didn't get these rules and this model did.
SHUPPET wrote: I honestly think Cypher would play really well, and thematically, with these rules and weapons. It's a shame that he didn't get these rules and this model did.
Cypher allready has this gun, well his boltpistol atleast.
The only thing he would need is the double shooting.
Well that and the fallen keyword needs to be looked at.
I agree. That Fallen thing tends to throw a wrench in the entire thing. He has already been lowered pointwise once yet people aren't taking him which means that his skillset is lacklustre.
Tyel wrote: I don't think the Sanctus does have a 40% chance to kill a jetseer - could you lay out why you think he does?
Seer is a psyker, Sanctus rifle causes perils on wound. For 0 CP he can shoot twice.
The seer has a ghosthelm - a 2+ save versus perils makes it unlikely.
Shooting once you have a 75% chance to do no damage, and almost no chance to do 6 wounds. Shooting twice ups this to a 60% chance to do no damage, but still only a 1.3% chance to kill the Jetseer.
Using the wound on 2+ sniper I think this increases to just 3%, although the odds of doing nothing are reduced to 40% if shooting twice.
Ahriman is a better target (pre any defensive buffs) - but you are still looking at about a 7% chance to kill him with one shot, 17% chance if shooting twice.
Geoff Robinson/iNcontroL's codex review has beaten me to it - but when there are so many chances to fail, low-shot snipers are not reliable, and consequently almost always rubbish unless very cheap.
Tyel wrote: I don't think the Sanctus does have a 40% chance to kill a jetseer - could you lay out why you think he does?
Seer is a psyker, Sanctus rifle causes perils on wound. For 0 CP he can shoot twice.
The seer has a ghosthelm - a 2+ save versus perils makes it unlikely.
Shooting once you have a 75% chance to do no damage, and almost no chance to do 6 wounds. Shooting twice ups this to a 60% chance to do no damage, but still only a 1.3% chance to kill the Jetseer.
Using the wound on 2+ sniper I think this increases to just 3%, although the odds of doing nothing are reduced to 40% if shooting twice.
Ahriman is a better target (pre any defensive buffs) - but you are still looking at about a 7% chance to kill him with one shot, 17% chance if shooting twice.
Geoff Robinson/iNcontroL's codex review has beaten me to it - but when there are so many chances to fail, low-shot snipers are not reliable, and consequently almost always rubbish unless very cheap.
On the plus side, doubleshooting with the sniper costs 0CP, and whilest he has the arguably worse sniper rifle to the biker gal, for regular targets, he still can be a massive annoyance.
That said, wothout the stratagem special rule i am inclined to say that he would be bad, compared to his brothers.
My problem with the Kelermorph is easy to explain: horde armies (with foot infantry) supported by character become more of a liability.
So...
Considering that they are the natural counter to Knight list, and the GSC until now seems a counter to them (and also to heroic powerful single character and elite troops - slamcaptain, smashboss, veterans... you name one: Kelermorph hurts them)...
I expect more and more Knights on the table at any level.
I have no problem with that, honestly.
But since a lot of people hate Knight for whatever reason... within few months, when community will call for a nerf to Knight because they will became ubiquitous, try to remember who really started this specific armarment race: this guy here.
Cybtroll wrote: My problem with the Kelermorph is easy to explain: horde armies (with foot infantry) supported by character become more of a liability.
So...
Considering that they are the natural counter to Knight list, and the GSC until now seems a counter to them (and also to heroic powerful single character and elite troops - slamcaptain, smashboss, veterans... you name one: Kelermorph hurts them)...
I expect more and more Knights on the table at any level.
I have no problem with that, honestly.
But since a lot of people hate Knight for whatever reason... within few months, when community will call for a nerf to Knight because they will became ubiquitous, try to remember who really started this specific armarment race: this guy here.
You could however also argue that the armaments race was started by knights in the first place.
]It doesn't, because it's a false equivalence. The job of the kelermorph is to suppress characters. If you keep your character off the board out of fear of the kelermorph then it doesn't even need to be on the table to have performed its function.
What character are you aware of that can do what you paid the points for it to do, while hiding in a transport for the first three turns of the game?
You are spending points to do that role with Kelermorph, you're not freely suppressing a unit of your opponents. On top of that, you have a bunch of other ways to deal with it that lets your character keep playing.
Calling things broken this early, is the mark and sign of a bottom tier player. This has held true every single time I've said it. This is not a unit that locks down any meta at all, hell the majority of armies in the game are unphased.
But you don't really have to spend the points. Someone is not going to buy or deploy a model, which easily dies when he plays vs GSC. Models can change how lists build just by existing, you don't even have to play against armies them exclusivlly. Castellans are more or less responsible for single handly removing most tanks from the game. You more or less have to be undercosted like the LRcmd.
SHUPPET wrote: It stops being an hypothesis once you use the word "undoubtedly" and "objectively". That's you making a statement.
'Indicate' is the hypothetical. But change the words to suit as appropriate.
I note the major defenders of the Kelermorph and GSC abilities in general seem to be those players who will field them.Telling in and of itself.
I'm paying attention to this thread because I play the army. I don't plan to run a Kelermorph, I don't find it appealing gameplay wise. Time to drop your projection, it's already failed you.
I would say the exact same thing in any other pre-release thread, and have done before. Declaring things as OP, and also as garbage, before the dex has even released, is really cringeworthy behavior that seems to thrive on dakka and not in productive discussion or high level circles. Anyone who does it should really be questioning their level of skill as a player and where they stand with such emotion based statements, because I certainly am when I read those posts. To try sling this into some bias about me defending Kelermorph's because I want to play them or something is just utterly absurd. On top of that, anyone who knows me should know by now I'm usually the guy saying things in my army are STRONGER than others will, not the other way around.
So the codex is being reviewed and kelermorphs are indeed 60 points. That makes one of them pretty much an auto include, maybe even two or three, depending on how many detachments one brings.
They might not be OP meta shiftingly broken, but they are without a doubt too good for their points.
SHUPPET wrote: It stops being an hypothesis once you use the word "undoubtedly" and "objectively". That's you making a statement.
'Indicate' is the hypothetical. But change the words to suit as appropriate.
I note the major defenders of the Kelermorph and GSC abilities in general seem to be those players who will field them.Telling in and of itself.
I'm paying attention to this thread because I play the army. I don't plan to run a Kelermorph, I don't find it appealing gameplay wise. Time to drop your projection, it's already failed you.
I would say the exact same thing in any other pre-release thread, and have done before. Declaring things as OP, and also as garbage, before the dex has even released, is really cringeworthy behavior that seems to thrive on dakka and not in productive discussion or high level circles. Anyone who does it should really be questioning their level of skill as a player and where they stand with such emotion based statements, because I certainly am when I read those posts.
I'm not projecting and I don't know or care what you run. You run GSC though given you've just started a thread to discuss their tactics and refer to their players as 'we'. You've also defended the Keler. These are two facts. As i said, to me that is telling.
Your logic is the exact same logic that the 'Guardsmen should cost 4ppm' defenders have been using for the last 12 months. "Just wait until other codexes are released! You don't have all the data! You can't compare things in a vacuum! Its not them that's the problem, its the interaction between them and unit x/stratagem x!"
The dex may as well be released since we know literally everything about it now. Particularly now codex reviews are getting released. Sometimes a unit is so efficient its obvious it'll be strong. A unit that can all but guarantee to make it's points back is one such unit. Strong does not mean OP. Similarly a unit that isn't strong enough in some way (Warbikes for example) we can safely assume will be useless on codex release. I stated that warbikes were still far too expensive before the Orks codex dropped when we had the previews of their points and abilities. Look at that. No one takes them in a competitive game. I said the Mek workshop was trash pre codex. And it is. The same thing for the Squig Buggy.
Anyone with even a bit of experience/knowledge of the game can make a reasonable, informed assumption about the strength or weakness of something pre codex release. Obviously the more knowledge the better. Playtesters have said the GSC codex is incredibly strong. They may be entirely correct. Waiting until CA19 for GW to maybe fix something because you think its too early to tell does not sound like a good idea to me though and I'm confident enough in my opinions to not question myself every time I have one.
BlaxicanX wrote: Why are people ITT bringing up transports as a counter to the kelermorph?
If your HQ is in a transport his rules aren't on the table and he functionally doesn't exist. That is still a denial in the GSCs favor. He's controlling how you use your units.
And if their unit is in deepstrike, he isn't on the table, and his rules functionally don't exist. If he comes down without a good target in sight, he gets blown off the field and wasted. This logic goes both ways.
Galas wrote: Why people is so reluctant to recognise when a unit is OP?
Hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm that's a VERY difficult question. I can't give you a definite answer, because you've really stumbled across a true mystery here, but I can think a couple of possible reasons. Number one being, the dex isn't even released yet, nobody has played with him, and we don't even firmly know this guy's cost yet. Another one being that pretty much everything this guy can do is easily countered by not playing like a mindless muppet.
These declarations of things being OP before the dex is even released is just bottom level dakka posting. Let's wait till people can actually see the rules and play the model before deciding that people are in denial about something you seem so confident of.
In 6 months after release, if this unit has no real impact on the competitive scene, will you come back to this post and admit you were wrong, if you were?
I will because I have no problem recognising when I'm wrong but you'll have to remember me because I don't think I'll remember.
And I think you are right. Nothing can surpass real experience and months of playtesting on the battlefield to see what combos and units are clearly OP. But you can see when a unit is badly designed just as people recognised conscripts where OP when the Index leaked without anybody playing the game.
But I'll admit that I haven't have been paying attention to the thread once it surpassed 6 pages of people complaying than Cypher was a mook alongside this guy. I shouldn't have come and post that question without reading carefully what was been said and analised.
I apologize for that bad forum behaviour.
(But yeah I'm a scrub I'm not gonna deny it, I love too much my models to sacrifice what I find visual and gameplay apealing for the most powerfull combos, even if I try my best with what I have .At least I'm lucky that my meta is casual so no problem.)
EDIT: I'm not saying someone is doing it wrong it they use the most powerfull combos, I was just talking about my personal preferences.
Cybtroll wrote: My problem with the Kelermorph is easy to explain: horde armies (with foot infantry) supported by character become more of a liability.
So...
Considering that they are the natural counter to Knight list, and the GSC until now seems a counter to them (and also to heroic powerful single character and elite troops - slamcaptain, smashboss, veterans... you name one: Kelermorph hurts them)...
I expect more and more Knights on the table at any level.
I have no problem with that, honestly.
But since a lot of people hate Knight for whatever reason... within few months, when community will call for a nerf to Knight because they will became ubiquitous, try to remember who really started this specific armarment race: this guy here.
Knights might be a liability vs GSC, too, with that spell of theirs.
Cybtroll wrote: My problem with the Kelermorph is easy to explain: horde armies (with foot infantry) supported by character become more of a liability.
So...
Considering that they are the natural counter to Knight list, and the GSC until now seems a counter to them (and also to heroic powerful single character and elite troops - slamcaptain, smashboss, veterans... you name one: Kelermorph hurts them)...
I expect more and more Knights on the table at any level.
I have no problem with that, honestly.
But since a lot of people hate Knight for whatever reason... within few months, when community will call for a nerf to Knight because they will became ubiquitous, try to remember who really started this specific armarment race: this guy here.
Knights might be a liability vs GSC, too, with that spell of theirs.
Somehow gsc have not managed to shatter the knight meta with that spell since they've had it in their index, so I'm going to make a prediction that not much will change in that regard.
Somehow gsc have not managed to shatter the knight meta with that spell since they've had it in their index, so I'm going to make a prediction that not much will change in that regard.
What character are you aware of that can do what you paid the points for it to do, while hiding in a transport for the first three turns of the game?
I'd just put mine behind a transport/tank out of potential LOS and keeping the aura active. Or start him in a transport for first turn and then disembark. I also have Company Veterans that can bodyguard. I could also take a relic for a 2+ save on him if I felt the need.
You do realize how expensive Company Vets and Honour Guard are to be taking wounds from a 60 point model, right? That's STILL making his points back!
SHUPPET wrote: It stops being an hypothesis once you use the word "undoubtedly" and "objectively". That's you making a statement.
'Indicate' is the hypothetical. But change the words to suit as appropriate.
I note the major defenders of the Kelermorph and GSC abilities in general seem to be those players who will field them.Telling in and of itself.
I'm paying attention to this thread because I play the army. I don't plan to run a Kelermorph, I don't find it appealing gameplay wise. Time to drop your projection, it's already failed you.
I would say the exact same thing in any other pre-release thread, and have done before. Declaring things as OP, and also as garbage, before the dex has even released, is really cringeworthy behavior that seems to thrive on dakka and not in productive discussion or high level circles. Anyone who does it should really be questioning their level of skill as a player and where they stand with such emotion based statements, because I certainly am when I read those posts.
I'm not projecting and I don't know or care what you run. You run GSC though given you've just started a thread to discuss their tactics and refer to their players as 'we'. You've also defended the Keler. These are two facts. As i said, to me that is telling.
Your logic is the exact same logic that the 'Guardsmen should cost 4ppm' defenders have been using for the last 12 months. "Just wait until other codexes are released! You don't have all the data! You can't compare things in a vacuum! Its not them that's the problem, its the interaction between them and unit x/stratagem x!"
The dex may as well be released since we know literally everything about it now. Particularly now codex reviews are getting released. Sometimes a unit is so efficient its obvious it'll be strong. A unit that can all but guarantee to make it's points back is one such unit. Strong does not mean OP. Similarly a unit that isn't strong enough in some way (Warbikes for example) we can safely assume will be useless on codex release. I stated that warbikes were still far too expensive before the Orks codex dropped when we had the previews of their points and abilities. Look at that. No one takes them in a competitive game. I said the Mek workshop was trash pre codex. And it is. The same thing for the Squig Buggy.
Anyone with even a bit of experience/knowledge of the game can make a reasonable, informed assumption about the strength or weakness of something pre codex release. Obviously the more knowledge the better. Playtesters have said the GSC codex is incredibly strong. They may be entirely correct. Waiting until CA19 for GW to maybe fix something because you think its too early to tell does not sound like a good idea to me though and I'm confident enough in my opinions to not question myself every time I have one.
"I don't know or care what you run"
"I know you run GSC and that says a lot"
Pick one. These two statements are literally contradictory at every step.
I also said I plan not to play it and that I have said the same thing about other armies I don't play. Did you read anything here, or is this literally all the steam your argument has that you need to stand by this new nonsense declaration?
There is nothing in common with people defending Guardsmen. For starters, that's not even the argument THEY used. I've seen a lot of reasoning justifying 4 pt Guardsmen, not once did I see a claim that they are done because we have to wait for other stronger dexes to match it.
Secondly, it's not even the argument I was making either. I'm not in any way saying to wait for other stronger units to come out lmao are you even reading? I'm saying wait for THIS unit to come out before trying to drop the metaphorical guillotine on something that literally hasn't even been released or played by us yet.
Your post treads well past the territory of "disingenuous" into "I thought lies would add some legs to my losing argument." You have posters like Galas right next to you who made the same snap judgements abound an unplayed unit, ADMITTING it was scrubby as hell to do this. I'm sorry but it's a low level mentality.
It really shouldn't be that outlandish to say "can we please play this unit first thx". You act as though I'm saying it couldn't possibly be OP, I'm simply saying there's a ton of counterplay options and your literal theorycraft may be misplaced.
C4790M wrote: I don’t understand why people are saying gsc units can’t be good compared to space marines/eldar/necrons etc. The cult is a hive mind that, by the time of ascension, spans an entire planet and has done for generations, with more plans and back-up plans than batman with prep time. Plenty of time and resources to gene-mod and train a guy up to kelermorph standard. We don’t even know if genestealer hybrids age normally, dude could be way older than the average human lifespan for all we know.
Hey - let's not get silly now. A GSC may think it knows what it's doing, but Batman is the gosh-darned Batman...
Somehow gsc have not managed to shatter the knight meta with that spell since they've had it in their index, so I'm going to make a prediction that not much will change in that regard.
I mean the new one - Mental Onslaught.
There is certainly theoretical potential if you can combine it with leadership debuffs.
But then Harlequins have a very similar spell in mirror of minds and based on the fact we don't see threads screaming about it I don't think it has significant meta impact (versus say haywire bikers).
The rumor got one thing wrong: it's not two weapons they can take...it's one.
So for 10pts, you get WS4 BS4 1A that can take one of the following:
-Improvised weapon (which is nothing)
-Bolt or autopistol
-Chainsword
-autogun
-shotgun
1 in 4 can have a GL
sarge can have a power weap (or a 9-point power pick)
HOT DAMN THOSE 10 POINT AUTOGUNNERS GONNA SMASH THE META BOYS.
you can be T4 W2 with -1 to hit, sure. but if you're 1A and your best weapon is a shotgun...you're not going to actually DO anything.
because shotgunns are that bad?
Because a durable 10ppm fast model is supposedly that bad?
you know how people see tactical marines as abysmally bad because they don't deal any damage and it's pretty easy to kill them for their point cost? These bikes only deal the amount of damage a tactical marine deals if they're 6" away from something, and they have lower ballistic skill so not even then unless you buff them. Also, T4 W2 5+ with -1 to hit makes them only 20% more durable than tacticals for the points against basic antiinfantry weaponry. They get to be worse if you're in melee, and obviously worse if your opponent has multidamage weaponry. And we're talking about a squad that gets fewer, and worse, special weapons than those tactical marines, and is not a troop choice.
They're solidly worse than what is considered one of the worst troops in the game. And they're not a troop choice.
Also, to everyone who is talking about oneshotting knights with mental onslaught:
mental onslaught ends when you FAIL TO INFLICT a mortal wound. Doesn't say it ends when your opponent ties or beats your roll-off. IKs have a 2cp stratagem to ignore mortal wounds on a 5+. In order to deal significant damage to a knight with mental onslaught, you need to do the following:
1) get your caster within 18" of the knight (ok, pretty easy).
2) have a support character next to your caster (Also easy)
3) get a particular relic within 6" of the knight that can only be on infantry (hmm. Hard. knights tend to have screens.)
4) get another psyker within 18" of the knight from an allied soup detachment, and cast a psychic power on the knight.
5) Get a model with no fly, no deep strike and 6" move within 6" of the knight
6) Cast mental onslaught on the knight, don't have that get denied.
7) successfully vect the 5+ save vs mortal strat for 3cp (which requires you to select that as your cult detachment's trait)
Then, and only then, you have a LD7 knight rolling against a LD11 psyker and there's only a 1 in 36 chance of him tying or beating you on that roll - meaning you will oneshot that knight with the psychic power on average - holy cow!
Don't succeed in getting one of these bonuses/maluses in place, your average wounds to the knight goes down to 9.
Don't succeed 2, your average wounds is down to 3.
Don't vect the stratagem, average wounds is down to 3.
I will definitely give you one thing though, complainers of dakka: Kellermorph is almost certainly too good for his points. I'd even say far too good. Luckily there will only ever be 3 of him, more often 2.
Also, the Sanctus creates a number of "we must FAQ this NOW" interactions with certain psyker units who previously had no way of suffering perils of the warp (Thousand Sons non-sergeants and pink horrors being the big ones I can come up with right now) because the perils cause instant explosions as EACH MODEL killed by the D3 roll causes the D3 mortal wound explosion.
Have you ever heard of your Lord and sviour the brigade filler fast assult?
Yeah that is what the Bikes will be.
Secondly 20% more durability on top of beeing cheaper, i'd take it.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
the_scotsman wrote: I will definitely give you one thing though, complainers of dakka: Kellermorph is almost certainly too good for his points. I'd even say far too good. Luckily there will only ever be 3 of him, more often 2.
Also, the Sanctus creates a number of "we must FAQ this NOW" interactions with certain psyker units who previously had no way of suffering perils of the warp (Thousand Sons non-sergeants and pink horrors being the big ones I can come up with right now) because the perils cause instant explosions as EACH MODEL killed by the D3 roll causes the D3 mortal wound explosion.
That's a RAW nightmare.
I wondered about certain oddities aswell, mainly because if malefic lords survive the perils do they Automatically get posessed?
Is this a bad time to mention the kelemorph can replace one pistol with a relic that’s pistol 3 s4 ap-2 d2 that rerolls hits and sounds vs characters? Or is that going to cause some of the naysayers to have an aneurism?
C4790M wrote: Is this a bad time to mention the kelemorph can replace one pistol with a relic that’s pistol 3 s4 ap-2 d2 that rerolls hits and sounds vs characters? Or is that going to cause some of the naysayers to have an aneurism?
No,
I guess the problem is not that he is good at killing charachters, the problem is that he just Willy nilly doubles his dakka for the lulz.
C4790M wrote: Is this a bad time to mention the kelemorph can replace one pistol with a relic that’s pistol 3 s4 ap-2 d2 that rerolls hits and sounds vs characters? Or is that going to cause some of the naysayers to have an aneurism?
C4790M wrote: Is this a bad time to mention the kelemorph can replace one pistol with a relic that’s pistol 3 s4 ap-2 d2 that rerolls hits and sounds vs characters? Or is that going to cause some of the naysayers to have an aneurism?
Yeah no he is cancer. I don't think I'd spend the CP on it though since it'll just overkill your target and he's a total suicide bombers anyway. I'd just file that under "adding insult to injury".
Competitive gsc lists will be mass handflamer acolyte squads to clear screens, a couple psykers to try and mortal wound/hijack knights, then abominations and aberrant to kill tough stuff and Keller to kill characters.
Ridge runners, bikers, alphus, brood bros, and pretty much everything else that's new in this release will never see a competitive table. This release will put nid soup on par with imp and eldar soup but I sincerely doubt it'll dethrone the castellan meta.
A shame about the Bikers because they look very cool. But GSC has no need for light and rapid movile forces when they have so many ways to be where they want to be.
the_scotsman wrote: you know how people see tactical marines as abysmally bad because they don't deal any damage and it's pretty easy to kill them for their point cost? These bikes only deal the amount of damage a tactical marine deals if they're 6" away from something, and they have lower ballistic skill so not even then unless you buff them. Also, T4 W2 5+ with -1 to hit makes them only 20% more durable than tacticals for the points against basic antiinfantry weaponry. They get to be worse if you're in melee, and obviously worse if your opponent has multidamage weaponry. And we're talking about a squad that gets fewer, and worse, special weapons than those tactical marines, and is not a troop choice.
They're solidly worse than what is considered one of the worst troops in the game. And they're not a troop choice.
This isn't right. First they can definitely can take 2 weapons, and there might be something with the demo charges+stratagems.
Still - as I see it the humble shotgun/cultist knife variant has the potential to do 4 WS/BS 4+, S4 (Twisted Helix) Ap- attacks for 10 points. Its not overpowered, and sure only in 6"+assault, but with movement 14" that's not such a big ask. Also you have -1 to hit with shooting, 2 wounds, toughness 4, 5+ save. Sounds good to me. If you don't care about the S4 in assault rusted claw would further boost their resilience.
Sure you can say a Marine does 3 such attacks with WS/BS 3+ - but then he's also 13 points. While being slower and a lot more vulnerable to most (possibly all) weapon types. I really don't get your claim they are 20% more durable - they give up about half as many points compared to Marines against small arms weapons because of that -1 to hit.
Are they breaking a meta dominated by Knights and Eldar/Tau units with the fly keyword that they can't really touch? No, but its not terrible. With that M14 they can jump isolated squads, characters and objectives.
This isn't right. First they can definitely can take 2 weapons, and there might be something with the demo charges+stratagems.
Still - as I see it the humble shotgun/cultist knife variant has the potential to do 4 WS/BS 4+, S4 (Twisted Helix) Ap- attacks for 10 points. Its not overpowered, and sure only in 6"+assault, but with movement 14" that's not such a big ask. Also you have -1 to hit with shooting, 2 wounds, toughness 4, 5+ save. Sounds good to me. If you don't care about the S4 in assault rusted claw would further boost their resilience.
Sure you can say a Marine does 3 such attacks with WS/BS 3+ - but then he's also 13 points. While being slower and a lot more vulnerable to most (possibly all) weapon types. I really don't get your claim they are 20% more durable - they give up about half as many points compared to Marines against small arms weapons because of that -1 to hit.
Are they breaking a meta dominated by Knights and Eldar/Tau units with the fly keyword that they can't really touch? No, but its not terrible. With that M14 they can jump isolated squads, characters and objectives.
The rumor got one thing wrong: it's not two weapons they can take...it's one.
So for 10pts, you get WS4 BS4 1A that can take one of the following:
-Improvised weapon (which is nothing)
-Bolt or autopistol
-Chainsword
-autogun
-shotgun
1 in 4 can have a GL
sarge can have a power weap (or a 9-point power pick)
HOT DAMN THOSE 10 POINT AUTOGUNNERS GONNA SMASH THE META BOYS.
you can be T4 W2 with -1 to hit, sure. but if you're 1A and your best weapon is a shotgun...you're not going to actually DO anything.
because shotgunns are that bad?
Because a durable 10ppm fast model is supposedly that bad?
you know how people see tactical marines as abysmally bad because they don't deal any damage and it's pretty easy to kill them for their point cost? These bikes only deal the amount of damage a tactical marine deals if they're 6" away from something, and they have lower ballistic skill so not even then unless you buff them. Also, T4 W2 5+ with -1 to hit makes them only 20% more durable than tacticals for the points against basic antiinfantry weaponry. They get to be worse if you're in melee, and obviously worse if your opponent has multidamage weaponry. And we're talking about a squad that gets fewer, and worse, special weapons than those tactical marines, and is not a troop choice.
They're solidly worse than what is considered one of the worst troops in the game. And they're not a troop choice.
Also, to everyone who is talking about oneshotting knights with mental onslaught:
mental onslaught ends when you FAIL TO INFLICT a mortal wound. Doesn't say it ends when your opponent ties or beats your roll-off. IKs have a 2cp stratagem to ignore mortal wounds on a 5+. In order to deal significant damage to a knight with mental onslaught, you need to do the following:
1) get your caster within 18" of the knight (ok, pretty easy).
2) have a support character next to your caster (Also easy)
3) get a particular relic within 6" of the knight that can only be on infantry (hmm. Hard. knights tend to have screens.)
4) get another psyker within 18" of the knight from an allied soup detachment, and cast a psychic power on the knight.
5) Get a model with no fly, no deep strike and 6" move within 6" of the knight
6) Cast mental onslaught on the knight, don't have that get denied.
7) successfully vect the 5+ save vs mortal strat for 3cp (which requires you to select that as your cult detachment's trait)
Then, and only then, you have a LD7 knight rolling against a LD11 psyker and there's only a 1 in 36 chance of him tying or beating you on that roll - meaning you will oneshot that knight with the psychic power on average - holy cow!
Don't succeed in getting one of these bonuses/maluses in place, your average wounds to the knight goes down to 9.
Don't succeed 2, your average wounds is down to 3.
Don't vect the stratagem, average wounds is down to 3.
The exact wording is "When you fail to inflict 1 mortal wound by having a score higher than your opponent" so no
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: I'm just waiting for one of the Cult apologists to defend the relic Pistol.
Hey it is just 1 more shot and conditioned torwards charachters, surely it won't be a problem if you can reroll 3/7 shots that further generate shots if they hit.
/
Jokes aside the 1 more shot /2 more if we really want to talk about is just meh, the dude is insane allready without it for his intended role, with it is kinda Overkill.
I would rather pick another relic, because the kelemorph certainly does not need it to be effective.
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: I'm just waiting for one of the Cult apologists to defend the relic Pistol.
Hey it is just 1 more shot and conditioned torwards charachters, surely it won't be a problem if you can reroll 3/7 shots that further generate shots if they hit.
/
Jokes aside the 1 more shot /2 more if we really want to talk about is just meh, the dude is insane allready without it for his intended role, with it is kinda Overkill.
I would rather pick another relic, because the kelemorph certainly does not need it to be effective.
Yup. It's an overkill gun. Will I defend the existence of this relic when it costs as much as Cawl's Wrath?
Why yes. Yes I will. The character it's on is nuts - the gun is not.
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: I'm just waiting for one of the Cult apologists to defend the relic Pistol.
Hey it is just 1 more shot and conditioned torwards charachters, surely it won't be a problem if you can reroll 3/7 shots that further generate shots if they hit.
/
Jokes aside the 1 more shot /2 more if we really want to talk about is just meh, the dude is insane allready without it for his intended role, with it is kinda Overkill.
I would rather pick another relic, because the kelemorph certainly does not need it to be effective.
Yup. It's an overkill gun. Will I defend the existence of this relic when it costs as much as Cawl's Wrath?
Why yes. Yes I will. The character it's on is nuts - the gun is not.
I mean, Yeah it is strong, nuts even thanks to the kelers special rule, but only picked if you have a free relic slot and absolutely positively want to go hunting elite infantry and blobs.
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: I'm just waiting for one of the Cult apologists to defend the relic Pistol.
Hey it is just 1 more shot and conditioned torwards charachters, surely it won't be a problem if you can reroll 3/7 shots that further generate shots if they hit.
/
Jokes aside the 1 more shot /2 more if we really want to talk about is just meh, the dude is insane allready without it for his intended role, with it is kinda Overkill.
I would rather pick another relic, because the kelemorph certainly does not need it to be effective.
It's the extra shot, plus rerolls to hit, plus rerolls to wound that makes him auto-kill a T4 W5 3++ model with only needing 2CP to get into range.
Now, I will say - it is taking a relic and if we're using the Smash Captain analogy it's still not terribly different considerations on how to deal with it, but I think the KM has a lot more chance to be successful than Cap.
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: I'm just waiting for one of the Cult apologists to defend the relic Pistol.
Hey it is just 1 more shot and conditioned torwards charachters, surely it won't be a problem if you can reroll 3/7 shots that further generate shots if they hit.
/
Jokes aside the 1 more shot /2 more if we really want to talk about is just meh, the dude is insane allready without it for his intended role, with it is kinda Overkill.
I would rather pick another relic, because the kelemorph certainly does not need it to be effective.
It's the extra shot, plus rerolls to hit, plus rerolls to wound that makes him auto-kill a T4 W5 3++ model with only needing 2CP to get into range.
Now, I will say - it is taking a relic and if we're using the Smash Captain analogy it's still not terribly different considerations on how to deal with it, but I think the KM has a lot more chance to be successful than Cap.
Tbf you can basically field two morphs for one smashcaptain.
If you have a free relic slot sure why not Hand it out but i still belive that the low points a kelermorph costs and the 2 CP deployment strat will make him efficient enough for his intended role.
Compare to, say, Tomb Blades. They fill similar roles, and Tomb Blades are considered good.
In my view anyway tomb blades are expensive to the point of being fragile. Its what 31 points with bladevanes, maybe you throw in the nebuloscope or whatever for 33?
Okay you get T5, 3+ save vs T4 5+ save. But you are paying over 3 times as many points.
But say vs an unbuffed Ravager:
Vs Jackal
9*1/2*2/3=3 dead bikes=30 points.
Vs Blades
9*1/2*1/2*5/6 (without the loom)=1.875 dead blades=58.125 points.
I think a riptide would get similar numbers.
I guess this is why I'm not a big fan of Blades. I tend to see them get shot off the table turn 1 or 2 without having really done anything and with a squad of 6 you are giving up 170-200 points which is fairly meaty.
On the plus side the Blades have much more powerful guns for their points, you consequently have a much larger window of targets and don't have to worry about assaulting to generate some value. I'm still not convinced though.
I see the Jackals as anti-chaff chaff and objective grabbers (no ob sec but still). They are there to menace characters (especially if wounded/hiding from Kellers) or min size troop squads camped on back field objectives. Or to tag artillery units so they can't fire next turn. Or get in the way of nasty assault units so you can deal with them on your terms. If my opponent wants to kill them they can - but they are not that efficient to kill, and I'd much rather you were assaulting/shooting them than say abberants, stealers, acolytes etc.
A counter argument is probably that with universal deep strike, you might not need that function. You can just bring those units above straight onto the table turn 2 to eat up/tag targets - especially with all the available buffs to moving from the ambush. At the same time though I don't think that makes the bikers awful in themselves - and being to relocate across the table can sometimes be critical to winning games.
Your post treads well past the territory of "disingenuous" into "I thought lies would add some legs to my losing argument." You have posters like Galas right next to you who made the same snap judgements abound an unplayed unit, ADMITTING it was scrubby as hell to do this. I'm sorry but it's a low level mentality.
It really shouldn't be that outlandish to say "can we please play this unit first thx". You act as though I'm saying it couldn't possibly be OP, I'm simply saying there's a ton of counterplay options and your literal theorycraft may be misplaced.
Let me posit something to you and let's see if you can grasp where I'm coming from. Imagine we were to play a game but I want to try some fun House rules for a new unit I made. Let's call em 'Mega, MEGA Nobs!'. They cost 1 point each and have WS/BS 2+, 100W, a 2+++ and take PowaKlaws that are just like regular PowerKlaws but free and add 10 attacks to their profile. I can take 1 per detachment. Would you need to play against such a unit to reckon it might be a little wonky? No? Would it be a low level mentality to believe this? Extrapolate that out.
Please do tell me the counterplay options I have as an Ork player to this dude who can delete most my characters at will, can innately DS, when he shoots chaff he still makes his points back and he effectively has double wounds because on a 4+ (or 2+ if bodyguarded) he has free grot shields that also work in cqc? " Put your characters in a transport" is not counterplay, its hamstringing.
As for the bikes? I would pay 10ppm for a T4, 5+, 2W model with 14" move and -1 to hit vs shooting. All day. Compare them to a Boy, for 3 points they get a better save, 9" extra move, a wound, better BS (but worse WS so its a wash), -1 to hit GS ranged, innate DS/ambush. Boys get an extra S4 attack (or 2 if over 20, 3 if choppas) and morale mitigation (if they survive). Not to mention traits and stratagems. They're a gem.
As for the bikes? I would pay 10ppm for a T4, 5+, 2W model with 14" move and -1 to hit vs shooting. All day. Compare them to a Boy, for 3 points they get a better save, 9" extra move, a wound, better BS (but worse WS so its a wash), -1 to hit GS ranged, innate DS/ambush. Boys get an extra S4 attack (or 2 if over 20, 3 if choppas) and morale mitigation (if they survive). Not to mention traits and stratagems. They're a gem.
Well...
better BS (but worse WS so its a wash)
I don't think getting a couple autogun shots makes that a wash. These guys are also S3 not S4 and have 1 attack not 2. And with +1A/+1A easily available to Boyz, well...
Still 10pts for a 14" moving unit with 2W and -1to hit doesn't seem to be too bad. Even for objective grabing. Don't people use scouts or higher point cost units like rhinos to tank overwatch etc. Getting those bikers dude charge first, just so your big hammer dudes don't have to eat overwatch seems to be ok. Sure they aren't s spears, but they also cost a lot less.
Karol wrote: Still 10pts for a 14" moving unit with 2W and -1to hit doesn't seem to be too bad. Even for objective grabing. Don't people use scouts or higher point cost units like rhinos to tank overwatch etc. Getting those bikers dude charge first, just so your big hammer dudes don't have to eat overwatch seems to be ok. Sure they aren't s spears, but they also cost a lot less.
The point of charging in a Rhino is that it's VERY DIFFICULT to kill a Rhino on Overwatch.
Even a Knight Valian, with its 3d6 S7 AP-2 D2 flamer averages only...
To a Rhino, which means it is VERY likely to make it in.
Now, compare these Jackals...
21/2 hits
42/6 or 7 wounds
7 unsaved
7 dead
Admittedly, most overwatch isn't as scary as a Valiant's, but against most things that are, what WON'T kill a Rhino very well might kill a squad of them.
Karol wrote: Still 10pts for a 14" moving unit with 2W and -1to hit doesn't seem to be too bad. Even for objective grabing. Don't people use scouts or higher point cost units like rhinos to tank overwatch etc. Getting those bikers dude charge first, just so your big hammer dudes don't have to eat overwatch seems to be ok. Sure they aren't s spears, but they also cost a lot less.
Karol wrote: Still 10pts for a 14" moving unit with 2W and -1to hit doesn't seem to be too bad. Even for objective grabing. Don't people use scouts or higher point cost units like rhinos to tank overwatch etc. Getting those bikers dude charge first, just so your big hammer dudes don't have to eat overwatch seems to be ok. Sure they aren't s spears, but they also cost a lot less.
No. No they do not, at least not in competitive lists. Also, Rhinos transport models, and scouts are troops that give CPs.
These bikers serve no role that isn't better served by many many other elements in the codex. It doesn't matter if you can find a way to justify their use for something or another - its like taking a Taurox in a Guard list, or regular Ogryns, or tacticals in a marine list. It doesn't matter if you can justify something some way or another, there's nothing that reasonably durable, mobile guys equipped with only lasgun-tier weapons do in a codex where EVERYTHING can just deep strike to where it wants to go.
Karol wrote: Still 10pts for a 14" moving unit with 2W and -1to hit doesn't seem to be too bad. Even for objective grabing. Don't people use scouts or higher point cost units like rhinos to tank overwatch etc. Getting those bikers dude charge first, just so your big hammer dudes don't have to eat overwatch seems to be ok. Sure they aren't s spears, but they also cost a lot less.
No. No they do not, at least not in competitive lists. Also, Rhinos transport models, and scouts are troops that give CPs.
These bikers serve no role that isn't better served by many many other elements in the codex. It doesn't matter if you can find a way to justify their use for something or another - its like taking a Taurox in a Guard list, or regular Ogryns, or tacticals in a marine list. It doesn't matter if you can justify something some way or another, there's nothing that reasonably durable, mobile guys equipped with only lasgun-tier weapons do in a codex where EVERYTHING can just deep strike to where it wants to go.
Again, they do seem to outperform sentinels and cost only 5ppm more,. Since i do not belive that a cult sentinel is only 25 pts when it is literally for am and r&h 30 ppm without weapons.
Edit: not to mention satchel charges and their stratagems and Traits.
Your post treads well past the territory of "disingenuous" into "I thought lies would add some legs to my losing argument." You have posters like Galas right next to you who made the same snap judgements abound an unplayed unit, ADMITTING it was scrubby as hell to do this. I'm sorry but it's a low level mentality.
It really shouldn't be that outlandish to say "can we please play this unit first thx". You act as though I'm saying it couldn't possibly be OP, I'm simply saying there's a ton of counterplay options and your literal theorycraft may be misplaced.
Let me posit something to you and let's see if you can grasp where I'm coming from. Imagine we were to play a game but I want to try some fun House rules for a new unit I made. Let's call em 'Mega, MEGA Nobs!'. They cost 1 point each and have WS/BS 2+, 100W, a 2+++ and take PowaKlaws that are just like regular PowerKlaws but free and add 10 attacks to their profile. I can take 1 per detachment. Would you need to play against such a unit to reckon it might be a little wonky? No? Would it be a low level mentality to believe this? Extrapolate that out.
Please do tell me the counterplay options I have as an Ork player to this dude who can delete most my characters at will, can innately DS, when he shoots chaff he still makes his points back and he effectively has double wounds because on a 4+ (or 2+ if bodyguarded) he has free grot shields that also work in cqc? " Put your characters in a transport" is not counterplay, its hamstringing.
As for the bikes? I would pay 10ppm for a T4, 5+, 2W model with 14" move and -1 to hit vs shooting. All day. Compare them to a Boy, for 3 points they get a better save, 9" extra move, a wound, better BS (but worse WS so its a wash), -1 to hit GS ranged, innate DS/ambush. Boys get an extra S4 attack (or 2 if over 20, 3 if choppas) and morale mitigation (if they survive). Not to mention traits and stratagems. They're a gem.
The counterplay as Orks is to put chaff in the way, then easily kill him and his bodyguard unit as nearly everything in GSC is T3 5+. Even if he makes most of his points back killing chaff, thats the job of chaff
I’d also like to point out that this guy is one per detachment, so in a GSC/Nid soup list you’re facing a maximum of 2. Also, GSC are shaping up to be a veryCP heavy army and the opportunity cost of using 3CP to get him to double shoot or the 2CP to get him 3” away is very high, especially when there are other units that need to use those stratagems
I suppose it's cheating to say "grot shields" even though that's exactly what I'd do, because every GSC army will be cult of the four armed emperor and theyll never have a stratagem more important to vect, and it's still "no counterplay" if their 60-point model kills my 60-point warboss and uses 5-8CP to do it.
Or just have enough boyz on the table for it to not matter.
Your post treads well past the territory of "disingenuous" into "I thought lies would add some legs to my losing argument." You have posters like Galas right next to you who made the same snap judgements abound an unplayed unit, ADMITTING it was scrubby as hell to do this. I'm sorry but it's a low level mentality.
It really shouldn't be that outlandish to say "can we please play this unit first thx". You act as though I'm saying it couldn't possibly be OP, I'm simply saying there's a ton of counterplay options and your literal theorycraft may be misplaced.
Let me posit something to you and let's see if you can grasp where I'm coming from. Imagine we were to play a game but I want to try some fun House rules for a new unit I made. Let's call em 'Mega, MEGA Nobs!'. They cost 1 point each and have WS/BS 2+, 100W, a 2+++ and take PowaKlaws that are just like regular PowerKlaws but free and add 10 attacks to their profile. I can take 1 per detachment. Would you need to play against such a unit to reckon it might be a little wonky? No? Would it be a low level mentality to believe this? Extrapolate that out.
This is an absurdly false comparison. 100W 1 pt 2+++ models. That model has NOT been printed. NOBODY thinks that this could potentially turn out not to be crazy. There was NO member of the playtest team that finished playing this model and said "yeah, fair". The Kelermorph however, you can quite practically see how they could think all these things, and I'd like to wait and play it out. Yes, there is a line where things cross into obviously broken, but this slippery slope fallacy that because it exists, then we are allowed to declare models like this as broken before they are even released. Learn how to formulate an argument that doesn't hinge off logical fallacies. Similar to the Solitaire, people saw it and declared it to be OP, and undercosted. But gasp, look at that - solitaire isn't tearing up the meta and nobody cares about it anymore, because you can only spend 100pts of your army on Solitaire, and the other limitations of the army held in back. Even Aeldari soup it's not that popular. Similar to that, you can only spend 180pts of your army on Kelermorph, and ONLY then if you completely give up all soup options, something you yourself said was going to be one of their other strengths. Even then, you probably don't want to run more than 2 because that would be bad, and even then, it's only going to have impact against a certain type of list. This hyperbole that deciding things like this are going to be broken before the dex isn't even released has got to stop, it's unbelievably embarrassing.
An Actual Englishman wrote: Please do tell me the counterplay options I have as an Ork player to this dude who can delete most my characters at will, can innately DS, when he shoots chaff he still makes his points back and he effectively has double wounds because on a 4+ (or 2+ if bodyguarded) he has free grot shields that also work in cqc? " Put your characters in a transport" is not counterplay, its hamstringing.
He comes down and kills 4.5 Orks by shooting at chaff. That's not even HALF his cost. Then he's a shooty Gaurdsmen within charge range of Orkz. There's literally zero reason you shouldn't have "any options" to counter play against that as Orkz. It's posts like this that do nothing but convince me you are playing this game at the lowest level possible. It's possible the Kelermorph comes out and does end up being broken, my only stance is that we don't know, but if he is, it's definitely not for the casual reasons you describe it
An Actual Englishman wrote: As for the bikes? I would pay 10ppm for a T4, 5+, 2W model with 14" move and -1 to hit vs shooting. All day. Compare them to a Boy, for 3 points they get a better save, 9" extra move, a wound, better BS (but worse WS so its a wash), -1 to hit GS ranged, innate DS/ambush. Boys get an extra S4 attack (or 2 if over 20, 3 if choppas) and morale mitigation (if they survive). Not to mention traits and stratagems. They're a gem.
And here's what Geoff, someone who has actually played the dex for months now, thinks about the Bikes.
Not only does he think that they are the worst unit in the dex, he thinks they are one of the worst units in the game.
Now maybe he's wrong, maybe you're wrong. We'll see in time when the dex comes out. Either way, it's an excellent example of how you don't really have the knowledge as player right now to be calling things busted, or OP, and act as though it's the gospel. EVEN GEOFF after months of playing, and at a much higher level of play than yourself, says that he doesn't have the knowledge on such things and that we'll have to see how it evolves and he'd love to be wrong. Wait till we've all actually played the dex and seen how it competes and interacts with others. Shouldn't be that outlandish a statement, but apparently we're doing overtime on scrubbiness here on dakka these days.
the_scotsman wrote: I will definitely give you one thing though, complainers of dakka: Kellermorph is almost certainly too good for his points. I'd even say far too good. Luckily there will only ever be 3 of him, more often 2.
Glad to see you are no longer defending him and calling us all nuts! And that relic pistol, yikes.
Only think more bonkers is the models, hard to resist the army, it's really cool looking. I just have way too many projects in the line.
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: I'm just waiting for one of the Cult apologists to defend the relic Pistol.
Hey it is just 1 more shot and conditioned torwards charachters, surely it won't be a problem if you can reroll 3/7 shots that further generate shots if they hit.
/
Jokes aside the 1 more shot /2 more if we really want to talk about is just meh, the dude is insane allready without it for his intended role, with it is kinda Overkill.
I would rather pick another relic, because the kelemorph certainly does not need it to be effective.
Yup. It's an overkill gun. Will I defend the existence of this relic when it costs as much as Cawl's Wrath?
Why yes. Yes I will. The character it's on is nuts - the gun is not.
Amazing logic. It's fine because Cawls Wrath is broken.
Not saying he's wrong about the bikes, but I doubt he's been playing the codex at all, since he keeps referring to Genestealers with Cult Creed buffs.
He's been having a ton of games, he's described a lot of things from them, and a lot of his findings. I, unlike many of the other players on here making snapjudgements, watched the full 2 and a half hour video from the one person who has actually been playing this dex to see what he'd learnt in his time with it - for example his initial opinions on the Sanctus completely changed after playtesting, off top of my head. He thinks the Kelermorph is real good too - didn't use the word OP or any synonym for it either though, where as he did have use for it elsewhere in the review. Most reviewers missed the part about Purestrains missing out on Cult bonuses, it's tucked away on the very bottom corner of one of the back pages, seems Geoff just made a mistake there, not difficult one to make. I don't think he made any mistake in his playing of the bikes.
Again I'm not saying he's right or wrong about the bikes either, I'm saying it's an excellent example of why you might not actually know what you think you know, and it's fine to speculate, but maybe wait till you've actually played these units before acting like others are in denial.
Your post treads well past the territory of "disingenuous" into "I thought lies would add some legs to my losing argument." You have posters like Galas right next to you who made the same snap judgements abound an unplayed unit, ADMITTING it was scrubby as hell to do this. I'm sorry but it's a low level mentality.
It really shouldn't be that outlandish to say "can we please play this unit first thx". You act as though I'm saying it couldn't possibly be OP, I'm simply saying there's a ton of counterplay options and your literal theorycraft may be misplaced.
Let me posit something to you and let's see if you can grasp where I'm coming from. Imagine we were to play a game but I want to try some fun House rules for a new unit I made. Let's call em 'Mega, MEGA Nobs!'. They cost 1 point each and have WS/BS 2+, 100W, a 2+++ and take PowaKlaws that are just like regular PowerKlaws but free and add 10 attacks to their profile. I can take 1 per detachment. Would you need to play against such a unit to reckon it might be a little wonky? No? Would it be a low level mentality to believe this? Extrapolate that out.
This is an absurdly false comparison. 100W 1 pt 2+++ models. That model has NOT been printed. NOBODY thinks that this could potentially turn out not to be crazy. There was NO member of the playtest team that finished playing this model and said "yeah, fair". The Kelermorph however, you can quite practically see how they could think all these things, and I'd like to wait and play it out. Yes, there is a line where things cross into obviously broken, but this slippery slope fallacy that because it exists, then we are allowed to declare models like this as broken before they are even released. Learn how to formulate an argument that doesn't hinge off logical fallacies. Similar to the Solitaire, people saw it and declared it to be OP, and undercosted. But gasp, look at that - solitaire isn't tearing up the meta and nobody cares about it anymore, because you can only spend 100pts of your army on Solitaire, and the other limitations of the army held in back. Even Aeldari soup it's not that popular. Similar to that, you can only spend 180pts of your army on Kelermorph, and ONLY then if you completely give up all soup options, something you yourself said was going to be one of their other strengths. Even then, you probably don't want to run more than 2 because that would be bad, and even then, it's only going to have impact against a certain type of list. This hyperbole that deciding things like this are going to be broken before the dex isn't even released has got to stop, it's unbelievably embarrassing.
An Actual Englishman wrote: Please do tell me the counterplay options I have as an Ork player to this dude who can delete most my characters at will, can innately DS, when he shoots chaff he still makes his points back and he effectively has double wounds because on a 4+ (or 2+ if bodyguarded) he has free grot shields that also work in cqc? " Put your characters in a transport" is not counterplay, its hamstringing.
He comes down and kills 4.5 Orks by shooting at chaff. That's not even HALF his cost. Then he's a shooty Gaurdsmen within charge range of Orkz. There's literally zero reason you shouldn't have "any options" to counter play against that as Orkz. It's posts like this that do nothing but convince me you are playing this game at the lowest level possible. It's possible the Kelermorph comes out and does end up being broken, my only stance is that we don't know, but if he is, it's definitely not for the casual reasons you describe it
An Actual Englishman wrote: As for the bikes? I would pay 10ppm for a T4, 5+, 2W model with 14" move and -1 to hit vs shooting. All day. Compare them to a Boy, for 3 points they get a better save, 9" extra move, a wound, better BS (but worse WS so its a wash), -1 to hit GS ranged, innate DS/ambush. Boys get an extra S4 attack (or 2 if over 20, 3 if choppas) and morale mitigation (if they survive). Not to mention traits and stratagems. They're a gem.
And here's what Geoff, someone who has actually played the dex for months now, thinks about the Bikes.
Not only does he think that they are the worst unit in the dex, he thinks they are one of the worst units in the game.
Now maybe he's wrong, maybe you're wrong. We'll see in time when the dex comes out. Either way, it's an excellent example of how you don't really have the knowledge as player right now to be calling things busted, or OP, and act as though it's the gospel. EVEN GEOFF after months of playing, and at a much higher level of play than yourself, says that he doesn't have the knowledge on such things and that we'll have to see how it evolves and he'd love to be wrong. Wait till we've all actually played the dex and seen how it competes and interacts with others. Shouldn't be that outlandish a statement, but apparently we're doing overtime on scrubbiness here on dakka these days.
Are you choosing to miss the point of his hypothetical unit in this thought exercise on purpose?
He asked a question and you basically ignored it. The premise is that a placing a limit on how many of a broken unit you can take doesn't fix the problem because the unit we are talking about is still broken. Can you deny this, yes or no?
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: I'm just waiting for one of the Cult apologists to defend the relic Pistol.
Hey it is just 1 more shot and conditioned torwards charachters, surely it won't be a problem if you can reroll 3/7 shots that further generate shots if they hit.
/
Jokes aside the 1 more shot /2 more if we really want to talk about is just meh, the dude is insane allready without it for his intended role, with it is kinda Overkill.
I would rather pick another relic, because the kelemorph certainly does not need it to be effective.
Yup. It's an overkill gun. Will I defend the existence of this relic when it costs as much as Cawl's Wrath?
Why yes. Yes I will. The character it's on is nuts - the gun is not.
Amazing logic. It's fine because Cawls Wrath is broken.
Uh, no. i'ts fine because it's a pistol used to make a 60pt model slightly more valuable. Relics exist that can buff 1000pts of models, relics that increase the damage output of superheavies by the same percentage, and relics that make 150-200 point melee models deal 6-7 additional wounds.
Your post treads well past the territory of "disingenuous" into "I thought lies would add some legs to my losing argument." You have posters like Galas right next to you who made the same snap judgements abound an unplayed unit, ADMITTING it was scrubby as hell to do this. I'm sorry but it's a low level mentality.
It really shouldn't be that outlandish to say "can we please play this unit first thx". You act as though I'm saying it couldn't possibly be OP, I'm simply saying there's a ton of counterplay options and your literal theorycraft may be misplaced.
Let me posit something to you and let's see if you can grasp where I'm coming from. Imagine we were to play a game but I want to try some fun House rules for a new unit I made. Let's call em 'Mega, MEGA Nobs!'. They cost 1 point each and have WS/BS 2+, 100W, a 2+++ and take PowaKlaws that are just like regular PowerKlaws but free and add 10 attacks to their profile. I can take 1 per detachment. Would you need to play against such a unit to reckon it might be a little wonky? No? Would it be a low level mentality to believe this? Extrapolate that out.
This is an absurdly false comparison. 100W 1 pt 2+++ models. That model has NOT been printed. NOBODY thinks that this could potentially turn out not to be crazy. There was NO member of the playtest team that finished playing this model and said "yeah, fair". The Kelermorph however, you can quite practically see how they could think all these things, and I'd like to wait and play it out. Yes, there is a line where things cross into obviously broken, but this slippery slope fallacy that because it exists, then we are allowed to declare models like this as broken before they are even released. Learn how to formulate an argument that doesn't hinge off logical fallacies. Similar to the Solitaire, people saw it and declared it to be OP, and undercosted. But gasp, look at that - solitaire isn't tearing up the meta and nobody cares about it anymore, because you can only spend 100pts of your army on Solitaire, and the other limitations of the army held in back. Even Aeldari soup it's not that popular. Similar to that, you can only spend 180pts of your army on Kelermorph, and ONLY then if you completely give up all soup options, something you yourself said was going to be one of their other strengths. Even then, you probably don't want to run more than 2 because that would be bad, and even then, it's only going to have impact against a certain type of list. This hyperbole that deciding things like this are going to be broken before the dex isn't even released has got to stop, it's unbelievably embarrassing.
An Actual Englishman wrote: Please do tell me the counterplay options I have as an Ork player to this dude who can delete most my characters at will, can innately DS, when he shoots chaff he still makes his points back and he effectively has double wounds because on a 4+ (or 2+ if bodyguarded) he has free grot shields that also work in cqc? " Put your characters in a transport" is not counterplay, its hamstringing.
He comes down and kills 4.5 Orks by shooting at chaff. That's not even HALF his cost. Then he's a shooty Gaurdsmen within charge range of Orkz. There's literally zero reason you shouldn't have "any options" to counter play against that as Orkz. It's posts like this that do nothing but convince me you are playing this game at the lowest level possible. It's possible the Kelermorph comes out and does end up being broken, my only stance is that we don't know, but if he is, it's definitely not for the casual reasons you describe it
An Actual Englishman wrote: As for the bikes? I would pay 10ppm for a T4, 5+, 2W model with 14" move and -1 to hit vs shooting. All day. Compare them to a Boy, for 3 points they get a better save, 9" extra move, a wound, better BS (but worse WS so its a wash), -1 to hit GS ranged, innate DS/ambush. Boys get an extra S4 attack (or 2 if over 20, 3 if choppas) and morale mitigation (if they survive). Not to mention traits and stratagems. They're a gem.
And here's what Geoff, someone who has actually played the dex for months now, thinks about the Bikes.
Not only does he think that they are the worst unit in the dex, he thinks they are one of the worst units in the game.
Now maybe he's wrong, maybe you're wrong. We'll see in time when the dex comes out. Either way, it's an excellent example of how you don't really have the knowledge as player right now to be calling things busted, or OP, and act as though it's the gospel. EVEN GEOFF after months of playing, and at a much higher level of play than yourself, says that he doesn't have the knowledge on such things and that we'll have to see how it evolves and he'd love to be wrong. Wait till we've all actually played the dex and seen how it competes and interacts with others. Shouldn't be that outlandish a statement, but apparently we're doing overtime on scrubbiness here on dakka these days.
Are you choosing to miss the point of his hypothetical unit in this thought exercise on purpose?
He asked a question and you basically ignored it. The premise is that a placing a limit on how many of a broken unit you can take doesn't fix the problem because the unit we are talking about is still broken. Can you deny this, yes or no?
There's a difference between "This one unit can take on your entire army," and "This one unit is good."
But as a matter of fact, yes, I dislike the Rule of 3.
Your post treads well past the territory of "disingenuous" into "I thought lies would add some legs to my losing argument." You have posters like Galas right next to you who made the same snap judgements abound an unplayed unit, ADMITTING it was scrubby as hell to do this. I'm sorry but it's a low level mentality.
It really shouldn't be that outlandish to say "can we please play this unit first thx". You act as though I'm saying it couldn't possibly be OP, I'm simply saying there's a ton of counterplay options and your literal theorycraft may be misplaced.
Let me posit something to you and let's see if you can grasp where I'm coming from. Imagine we were to play a game but I want to try some fun House rules for a new unit I made. Let's call em 'Mega, MEGA Nobs!'. They cost 1 point each and have WS/BS 2+, 100W, a 2+++ and take PowaKlaws that are just like regular PowerKlaws but free and add 10 attacks to their profile. I can take 1 per detachment. Would you need to play against such a unit to reckon it might be a little wonky? No? Would it be a low level mentality to believe this? Extrapolate that out.
This is an absurdly false comparison. 100W 1 pt 2+++ models. That model has NOT been printed. NOBODY thinks that this could potentially turn out not to be crazy. There was NO member of the playtest team that finished playing this model and said "yeah, fair". The Kelermorph however, you can quite practically see how they could think all these things, and I'd like to wait and play it out. Yes, there is a line where things cross into obviously broken, but this slippery slope fallacy that because it exists, then we are allowed to declare models like this as broken before they are even released. Learn how to formulate an argument that doesn't hinge off logical fallacies. Similar to the Solitaire, people saw it and declared it to be OP, and undercosted. But gasp, look at that - solitaire isn't tearing up the meta and nobody cares about it anymore, because you can only spend 100pts of your army on Solitaire, and the other limitations of the army held in back. Even Aeldari soup it's not that popular. Similar to that, you can only spend 180pts of your army on Kelermorph, and ONLY then if you completely give up all soup options, something you yourself said was going to be one of their other strengths. Even then, you probably don't want to run more than 2 because that would be bad, and even then, it's only going to have impact against a certain type of list. This hyperbole that deciding things like this are going to be broken before the dex isn't even released has got to stop, it's unbelievably embarrassing.
An Actual Englishman wrote: Please do tell me the counterplay options I have as an Ork player to this dude who can delete most my characters at will, can innately DS, when he shoots chaff he still makes his points back and he effectively has double wounds because on a 4+ (or 2+ if bodyguarded) he has free grot shields that also work in cqc? " Put your characters in a transport" is not counterplay, its hamstringing.
He comes down and kills 4.5 Orks by shooting at chaff. That's not even HALF his cost. Then he's a shooty Gaurdsmen within charge range of Orkz. There's literally zero reason you shouldn't have "any options" to counter play against that as Orkz. It's posts like this that do nothing but convince me you are playing this game at the lowest level possible. It's possible the Kelermorph comes out and does end up being broken, my only stance is that we don't know, but if he is, it's definitely not for the casual reasons you describe it
An Actual Englishman wrote: As for the bikes? I would pay 10ppm for a T4, 5+, 2W model with 14" move and -1 to hit vs shooting. All day. Compare them to a Boy, for 3 points they get a better save, 9" extra move, a wound, better BS (but worse WS so its a wash), -1 to hit GS ranged, innate DS/ambush. Boys get an extra S4 attack (or 2 if over 20, 3 if choppas) and morale mitigation (if they survive). Not to mention traits and stratagems. They're a gem.
And here's what Geoff, someone who has actually played the dex for months now, thinks about the Bikes.
Not only does he think that they are the worst unit in the dex, he thinks they are one of the worst units in the game.
Now maybe he's wrong, maybe you're wrong. We'll see in time when the dex comes out. Either way, it's an excellent example of how you don't really have the knowledge as player right now to be calling things busted, or OP, and act as though it's the gospel. EVEN GEOFF after months of playing, and at a much higher level of play than yourself, says that he doesn't have the knowledge on such things and that we'll have to see how it evolves and he'd love to be wrong. Wait till we've all actually played the dex and seen how it competes and interacts with others. Shouldn't be that outlandish a statement, but apparently we're doing overtime on scrubbiness here on dakka these days.
Are you choosing to miss the point of his hypothetical unit in this thought exercise on purpose?
He asked a question and you basically ignored it. The premise is that a placing a limit on how many of a broken unit you can take doesn't fix the problem because the unit we are talking about is still broken. Can you deny this, yes or no?
Huh? I completely addressed the "thought experiment" in it's entirety. I said that a unit that does have this is obviously broken. Kelermorph is not 1 pt. He does not have 100 wounds and a 2++. What other answer do you want to that question? I addressed it in full, I even gave other similar examples of units who were limited by numbers that you could include that dakka declared broken on release that did not end up being so. There's a breaking point where it's obviously untested and unbalanced, I made my point pretty clearly that just because there is a line in the sand where something is obviously too much, doesn't mean you get to shift that line all the way down the slope to now including every single unit on release that you don't like the look of. It's far more plausible that the Keler was playtested and deemed not too oppressive. Kelermorph may whiff hard on the meta in it's current state, and what few targets it does hit may just bring an extra screen or two and push him out immediately. It's quite obvious that adding a 100W unkillable monster to your army essentially for free, is not the same thing here. This is a false equivalency. Just because you're joining in on the hyperbole as per usual does not mean you get to ignore what I wrote.
Not saying he's wrong about the bikes, but I doubt he's been playing the codex at all, since he keeps referring to Genestealers with Cult Creed buffs.
I mean, there were people who are supposed to be "experienced tournament players" who kept giving Relic of Cadia to Psykers early on...people suck at reading rules or sometimes just downright "interpret" things their way.
